# Hair Transplants > Hair Transplant: Start Your Own Topic >  FUE and the short hair cut

## topcat

For those that are unsure whether an fue procedure can be performed and still allow the patient to wear their hair cut very short with a 1 or 2 guard yes it is possible. All one needs to do is research the industry and find the clinics that are achieving those types of results and view them in person with your own eyes.


Those that are paid industry experts or working for clinics to help guide patients in their decision not to know that this type of result is possible seems hard to believe. With easy access to information that was often hidden in the past this no longer becomes an issue. They are either not very well informed and therefore cannot possibly be an industry expert or they are deliberately spreading misinformation which is basically lying and certainly should not be guiding patients.


This type of misinformation might have easily gone unnoticed years ago when the medium was only one way and the experts were never questioned as their word was gospel but that has all changed. Now when they are questioned they like to fall back on accusations of agendas when an intelligent answer is not forthcoming. Of course none of this is true but it does become a convenient response. Patients that are aware are just sick of the scumbags in this industry that continue to believe its okay not to be completely truthful with prospective patients if it is to their advantage, meaning monetary gain. You see this is what happens when you start to massage the truth, you risk losing any respect you previously worked so hard to build and it now becomes okay for critics to use a harsher tone.


All patients are asking for is honest information so that they can make an intelligent decision. Lying, playing dumb, or just really not knowing when you actually work in this industry starts to become a very slippery downhill slope so it might be best to rethink your position and take the high road.


It is possible to have fue performed and cut your hair very short, yes. Anyone that tells you that it is not is a liar. Does this mean all clinics performing fue can achieve it, no. Just as many of those same clinics cannot even manage to achieve a decent yield. Do your research.

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## HelpROGER

All Hail King Topcat, ROYAL KING OF THE FORUMS and resident know it all! :EEK!:

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## sausage

I am confused, I cannot understand why it would not be possible to wear your hair short after having FUE, were you supposed to write FUT?

Surely you can have your hair cut short with FUE, It did not even cross my mind that it would not be possible, what would make having short hair with FUE a problem? there is no scar, the density should look ok long and short.

Wayne Rooney for one has his hair short and has has FUE.

confused :S

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## Spex

Im confused too. Where has this been mentioned that you cant cut your hair short via FUE ? 

Here is a good solid example of FUE donor shaved to the bone after 1500 FUE.

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## PayDay

I heard  Kobren discuss this several times on the show. Hes said the only way to do a very short  buzz cut and have a hair transplant is to do FUE. Where did you hear differently? I don't think anyone in the hair business would deny that FUE is used when a person wants to keep their hair really short. That would not make sense.

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## sausage

exactly, I think topcat's gone loopey. One of the key advantages of FUE listed everywhere is that you can wear your hair short.

I have no idea why he seems to think that people within the industry say you cannot wear your hair short with FUE when it clearly says you can on every or near enough every hair transplant clinic's website.

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## HelpROGER

King Topcat has an unhealthy need to feel important on these forums. I wish he would stop all of the rhetoric and stop preaching. I have no idea what hes talking about half the time.

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## topcat

I hear that sometimes from strip only clinics and why it becomes apparent to me that strip only clinics are a poor choice for guidance.

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## sausage

On the topic of FUT only clinics......

Hasson and Wong do not do FUE cos they think it gives shoddy results.

Should people like me who are looking to get a HT take note of this?

If a big clinic is saying that then surely it has some substance?

Do they really believe that or is there another reason for them saying that?

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## topcat

Sausage that's the point of the post ask you own questions and know what questions to ask. Don't take any one person's answer as being the correct one. That is why research is important, formulate your own view from a variety of answers and not from one person or list.

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## sausage

To me it does not make sense that such a 'big' clinic says such a thing on their website.

How can they say FUE gives poor results when we can clearly see good results in examples on this forum.

Another point is if they think FUE gives shoddy results why are they happy to stick with FUT only, when FUT gives you a hideous looking scar in the back of your head.

They are trying to come across as a 'quality' clinic that only wants the best for their patients. But having a massive scar in the back of your head is not a 'quality' look. Its a naff look, but they don't mention that on their website, I wonder why.

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## Follicle Death Row

Truth is FUE is a little more hit and miss in terms of graft yield but I think it's getting better with Acell (I know Dr. Shapiro and Dr. Feriduni are making use of it).

Nice example by Spex. Check out this vid guys. Now I think at nw6/nw7 it may not have been the best choice going for FUE and the fact that the choi implanter pen was used might have affected the yield. I'd say it looks about 7,000-8,000 grew rather than 11,770 but in this video this guy has his donor shaved down after 11,770FU by FUE. I actually think the donor looks damn good considering they must have extracted 40-50&#37; of all donor FUs. No significant dotting to my eye anyway. Now I don't think it's the best HT in terms of hair angulation or yield because the implanter pens are a bit rubbish but I think it's a nice example of a shaved donor after almost 12,000 FU. The doc is Dr. Jose Lorenzo btw.


I would love to see pics of Dr. Feriduni's 10,000+ FUE patients. Thoughts on the donor appearance guys?

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## Jotronic

Topcat, buddy, chill with the cryptic postings. If you have something to say, come out and say it. Wasn't it just a few weeks ago you were hammering Spencer for not naming names. Pot, meet Kettle. 

Folks, what Topcat is referring to, as far as I know, is my participation on Spencer's show last night. We were talking about scalp tattooing and our mutual position that it just isn't a good idea and that while Dr. Rassman seems confident enough to offer it we just don't like the idea of it and think it is iffy at best. My thought was that maybe he's offering tattooing for those that aren't HT candidates due to a lack of donor hair or maybe he knows something we don't. Spencer said in that case maybe these guys could get just enough FUE to create a hairline and a bit on top for coverage and then just shave down to have what appears to be hair but just shaven very short. 

I've seen this response a lot but what I haven't seen are a lot of people actually doing this. So, just like that, I asked Spencer if he'd ever seen anyone that had done this; had FUE then shaved to get the appearance of hair or the "less is more" look. He said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that he actually had never seen this and that he did not know in fact if this was a good idea or not. I _think_ something was mentioned about how shaving isn't always possible but NOTHING was said about how it is never possible. Not from me and not from Spencer so somehow, for some reason, this has been grossly twisted and misrepresented. This wasn't even really part of the discussion.

My position is that FUE is fine for those that want, at all costs, to avoid a strip scar. However, there are those clinics and FUE cheerleaders that will tell you that anyone can shave as low as they want and no one will be able to tell. There will not be any visible evidence of surgery as long as they are in the hands of a good doctor. They will tell you that the survival rates are just as good just as often and that one can get as many grafts with FUE as can be had with strip. This just isn't the case and pointing to two or three cases to justify the position against hundreds of strip cases simply does not compute. More people talk about the benefits of FUE than there are actual results so of course because everyone wants to avoid the big bad strip scar the consensus grows further.

To date, there is not one single clinic that performs both procedures that will tell you that their FUE grafts are consistently as good as their strip grafts. I know from actually speaking to the reps from some of these clinics, or the doctors themselves, that they are up front with their patients about the differences in survival rates, which they should be. One would argue that it is because they are not as skilled as those that dedicate their practice full time to FUE. That is a valid point but then those that dedicate their practice full time to FUE have every reason to say that FUE grafts always grow as well as strip grafts because to say otherwise would jeopardize their business model. Hmm, seems to be a catch here. Whom to believe? That part is easy. No one, just believe the results. The results should speak for themselves. Not debates. Not postings. Not robots. Not vacuum cleaners ( *cough* Neograft *cough*).

So no, this rep from a strip only clinic did not say that FUE does not allow a shave down. It does, usually shorter than strip, BUT not always and just like you won't get a guarantee about a strip scar you sure as Hell won't get a guarantee that you can shave as short as you like with FUE. Not. From. Anyone.

So before you go calling me a scumbag, Topcat, check your facts and listen to the show a bit more closely. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think your heart is most likely in the right place. You and me are a lot alike and we both have motivations to do good but instead of calling me a scumbag maybe you should point your energies toward more worthwhile endeavors such as the new breed of clowns signing up to use Neograft. Or the joker in South Florida that uses a double blade scalpel while telling patients that using bigger grafts of 8 hairs means less transection or some sort of other BS. Really, man. there are a LOT of other things that have REAL potential to screw people up but one guy talking about anything on a call in radio show is NOT one of them.

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## topcat

My apologies on the scumbag comment Jotronic it was over the top and uncalled for as I was just a bit heated. My own experience where I had my scalp donor shaved down had no signs of fue surgery nor anywhere on my face or body. I have also seen a few cases up close where the hair was cut close to the scalp and once again it was amazing. Does this mean that it can be guaranteed no, but it is possible. I will have to listen to the show a second time. Of course I do take comments personally at times as I don’t make money from this industry and this same industry has caused me and many others a great deal of harm.

I was not trying to be cryptic I just have no reason to personally attack you by mentioning your name I was attacking the message.

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## HelpROGER

Have some balls Topcat! You call Jotronic a scumbag and dont have the balls to tell him to his face. Now you apologize cause you were caught. Man that is weak! Youre  a fool!

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## topcat

Roger you offer zero in the way of anything of value for prospective patients and I have no problem standing in someone face and letting them no exactly what I think. It's also what I hate about the internet so much as it allows those such as yourself to pretend.

Does your mother even know that you are posting or does she only do the research?

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## HelpROGER

Oh, so sorry King Topcat. Youre right, you know it all and the rest of us forum peasants should just bow down to the great KING Topcat. You offer nothing, but your bitterness and hatred to prospective patients. Jotronic is a person who should be respected not you! 
You could only wish you had a wonderful mother like I do. It's says a lot that you would stoop so low to go there. Sad!

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## sausage

The only thing that concerns me when any HT is buzzed down is the hairline, I have seen a few examples on here which I thought would look unnatural shaved down.

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## topcat

The fact is there are plenty of fue results out there and have been for several years with the hair shaved close to the head. The yields have been very high. But just like strip clinics that achieve low yields and massive stretched strip scars or even multiple stretched strip scars there will always be those that do not have the skill.

With the knowledge and experience I have obtained over the years I stand firmly behind the approach of a patient having a small fue procedure as the most risk free approach in deciding if a hair transplant procedure is right for them.

A small FUE procedure is the key phrase here. Anyone that disputes this statement I believe is not doing whats in the best interest of the patient.

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## sausage

> Im confused too. Where has this been mentioned that you cant cut your hair short via FUE ? 
> 
> Here is a good solid example of FUE donor shaved to the bone after 1500 FUE.


 Completely baffling....

Spex in another thread has just written a long post about how you should NOT cut your hair short after having FUE because of scarring etc.

Yet 2 days ago he wrote the quoted post above claiming that FUE does not leave noticeable scarring.

This is very concerning.

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## Follicle Death Row

In fairness Sausage that's only 1500 but I must admit it looks phenominal. It seems to me Dr. Feller takes a smart conservative approach with FUE. If you do a max first time session of FUE of say 1500 and you get only 60% yield well you've only wasted 600 but if you were to go straight in and blast out 3000 and got a 60% yield you're looking at double the hair lost for good at around 1200 FU.

If you did 1000 on a norwood 2 and it gave poor yield you could change to strip next time and you would only have lost 400.

Personally I'd love to have FUE not so I could shave down all over but so I could have the back and sides really short which is the way I like it. Kind of like how Sean who had 3000 FUE done by Dr. Rahal likes to keep his hair. Unfortunately I think I'll probably need all the hair I can get down the line which would mean stripping out for 8000-9000 would make the most sense and then looking to add 2000 FUE afterwards. The really sucky thing is my father had a full head of hair until 35 and then it started to go and by 45 he was a nw5/6 and has remained that way since. I'm 26 in April and a nw2.5 I'd say so I anticipate heading towards a 6. Unfortunately I think I have my mother's fine greying hair. My father has thick donor hairs so I just seem to lose on every front hair wise. Worst hair genetics ever.

Joe and Spex, what sort of yield do you guys think is typical of the best FUE docs? I know it depends on the patient but ballpark? 80%? 85%? 90%? I often hear it's about 95% for FUT with 6000 available by FUE alone and 8000-9000 by strip alone.

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## topcat

Sausage your result will be determined by the clinic that you choose. With a top clinic you should experience yield of 90+% most importantly speak with patients that have had the procedure performed and ask them about their experience. Ask them about their yield and any visible scarring.

Of course its good to ask those that work in the industry but speak to the actual customers.

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## sausage

> In fairness Sausage that's only 1500 but I must admit it looks phenominal. It seems to me Dr. Feller takes a smart conservative approach with FUE. If you do a max first time session of FUE of say 1500 and you get only 60% yield well you've only wasted 600 but if you were to go straight in and blast out 3000 and got a 60% yield you're looking at double the hair lost for good at around 1200 FU.


 I fairness.....

Spex wrote:

"Im confused too. Where has this been mentioned that you cant cut your hair short via FUE ?"

This clearly states he thinks short haircuts + FUE DO NOT go together.

Here he does not mention number of grafts and in the other post on the other thread he does not mention grafts numbers:

"You clearly have not seen FUE/ HT surgery shaved down in person . Its evident that 'something' has been done - its not 100% natural and when shaved to the bone especially a HT can create more issues than you realise. FUE CAUSES scaring whether you want to believe it or not. HT causes scaring minimal in most cases but scaring can be evident"

So clearly he has contradicted himself.

Anyway even if he was talking in numbers of grafts, from what he wrote in the other thread FUE causes scarring so even if you have a smaller amount of grafts your still going to get scarring, it is not going to stop scarring if you have 1500-2500 grafts. + if a large amount of grafts looks bad shaved down then a smaller amount of grafts will obviously look bad shaved down, its the same FUE procedure.

I think Spex needs to explain why he has written opposing thoughts on whether he thinks FUE and the short haircut works........

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## Spex

To clarify -  rather than have my words twisted any further in reference to my comments here and the other day which were in context of the subject. This guy seems to want to take my words out of context for some reason..Maybe its cause he simply is very confused..

I was referring to shaving all your hair down to the bone in your topic after a HT and informed that this is not a recommended or an advisable approach if the aim is to get a HT and invest 10, 000 's of &#163; only to only then shave it all off very short or to the bone.The fact of the matter IS a HT needs length to do its job and create the 'illusion' so having a HT and shaving it all off is absolutely pointless in my honest opinion as there WILL be scaring with any type of surgery. Be aware.

In relation to the other topic started by Topcat, i simply was clarifying what was meant by his post as with FUE surgery when performed correctly and extractions form a relatively small surgery are distributed appropriately hair in the donor region in fact can be worn short on a grade 1 0r 2 for example as shown. However there is scaring! FACT. This was from only 1500 FUE. You cant just keep going in again and again without clear evidence especially on this grade after surgery.

Your confusion possibly is the fact FUE patients can wear the donor hair short on a grade 1 and 2 and some even shorter when appropriate surgery and size surgeries are performed but be aware scaring will still reside, its there. How visible the scaring is depends on numerous factors. 

A HT shaved down in the recipient area on a grade 1 or 2 can look unnatural in my honest opinion ( all depends on the individual, all their variables and their HT design and approach) and most definitely when a patient shaves his head *to the bone* after any surgery which is what i ACTUALLY said if you read my comments. If you want that risk, you take it but at least you are now informed.

FUE causes scaring. It does, its surgery. Can you wear your hair *shorter* with FUE than strip,  YES. ( generally speaking)  Can you wear your hair to the bone after multiple FUE surgeries NO, in my opinion.  If your goal is to have multiple surgeries via FUE and shave all your hair off, pointless in my opinion and THAT was the point i was making in your topic. 

I think you need to see patients in person who have had EXACTLY what is is you are aiming to achieve.

Might i ask:
1. How old are you?
2. What NW level are you?
3. Please can you upload pics of recipient and donor region?
4. Are you on medication to prevent further loss?
5.How long have you been researching HT's?
6. How many HT's have you seen in person live in the flesh ?

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## topcat

I would agree shaving to the bone might present a problem so small sessions over time while constantly evaluating the donor area is the safest way to proceed.

Speaking from my own experience I have had approximately 500 beard hair extraction by way of fue from an area approximately 10-12 sq cm around the chin which is a fairly concentrated space. I have no visible scarring to my face. Everything looks perfectly normal and the yield was extremely high.

Does this mean your result will be the exactly the same? This can only be determined by actually having the procedure and assessing your own results and I would suggest going very, very small in that first procedure.

My personal opinion is that clinics performing fue on the face and chest have taken the procedure to a higher level because most but not all already have the natural skill to perform the procedure. Not everyone has this ability and many should not be practicing this technique because these are the results with low yields and white dotting in a high percentage of cases.

Always ask about any non disclosure statements that need to be signed.

Ask the clinic if they have ever been sued.

Ask the clinic if they have ever sued a patient.

Ask the clinic if they have ever sued a forum.

Ask the clinic if they have ever sued a current or former employee.

Just a few of the uncomfortable questions that need asking before and not after you procedure.

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## topcat

After getting a chance to listen to that last segment of the show dated 01/5/12 I realize why some of the comments I heard got me so heated. Regardless of how heated I was I should have showed more restraint  especially with the name calling as I know more than most it’s not necessary when just addressing the questions, statements or concerns is all that is required.

Jotronic you refuted the comment that fue could be used to give the shadow of a hairline with the rest of the hair shaved fairly close to the scalp as it does not exist and seems to just be an internet rumor. This is clearly false as I have seen results such as this and better in person and several such cases have been posted to the internet. To say you have not seen these cases might very well be true but it does make me wonder when I hear that statement coming from a strip only clinic. 

Spencer also stated that he has not seen this type of result but just previous to your response he is the one who brought it up as being an option but then was relegated to saying it was just theory.

Jotronic I would disagree with your statement about density being the main concern when avoiding scarring in the donor area. Most of the scarring I have seen has not been so much from reducing density from its original so much but using punches that were too large along with a very poor extraction pattern. Of course density matters but I would be more concerned with these two issues firstly.

How can anyone believe FUE in not definitely beneficial for many cases after it’s been out close to 10 years now? But it can only be beneficial in the right hands of which there are probably less than 5 and of those 5 even fewer that can offer everything else one should be looking for in a clinic.

Jotronic why may I ask does your clinic have all these FUE tools, what is the purpose?

 A guarantee of growth which states a full refund if it does not grow is not necessarily a guarantee of growth. It’s a guarantee of getting your money back. I have seen my share of strip cases where there was a failure of growth or full yield. I’m not blaming it on the clinic or the procedure itself as sometimes it’s just the patient for whatever reasons unknown. This is why in my opinion a small FUE procedure is always the safest way to dip your toe in the water and I don’t think this fact can be argued.

When you say you don’t offer FUE because it can’t give the same result you should be more specific. Your clinic does not seem to have the necessary skill to offer it which is still good as they are good at what they do offer. As far as mega sessions of course strip would make more sense but that should be clearly stated as a reason why strip would be preferred. If we are talking about a young guy that needs 2000-3000 grafts why on earth would someone push them into having a strip procedure? It’s unconscionable in my opinion.

Some clinics do offer both procedures and they are equally highly skilled at each. They also have the ethics to advise the patient on the best course of action without the bait and switch. Let’s not blanket them all into one neat little group because of  several bad players.

When I stated I was no one it was meant to make a personal statement. Most prospective patients make the mistake of just listening to those that work in the industry or have credentials that seem impressive to them. It’s a pet peeve of mine as I know that this is simply not true and it is not unique to the HT industry. The fitness and nutrition industry as well as many others industries work the same way. Over 90&#37; of what you read about fitness and nutrition is complete bullshit as the only way to make money in that business is by selling the lie and those that do it best wear the white coat or flash the credentials.  My own experience and knowledge in this area makes those experts look pathetic. But people still buy into the aura of the expert in the white coat.

Jotronic I think you are a good guy and certainly not a scumbag. You’re above some of the comments you made but maybe you truly believe them. If that’s the case I think you are completely wrong. I will try to stop speaking in code, I guess I get that from what I perceive as an industry that is filled with dark secrets and only those that work in the industry know exactly what I’m am saying, while many posters are just perplexed by my messages.

It is not my goal to try and hurt someone or take away their right to make a living and I could care less how much they make. I’m just tired of seeing young guys getting screwed over for a few dollars. I mean really is the money that GD important.

As far as some of these FUE clinics that are doing poor work I have the following list of questions prospective patients should be asking which should be included to their current list of questions. It bears repeating.


Have you ever been sued by a patient if so how many times and please provide details.



Have you ever sued a patient if so how many times and please provide details.



Have you ever sued a forum if so how many times and please provide details.



Have you ever sued an employee or former employee, if so how many times and please provide details.



Will I need to sign a lengthy non disclosure statement regarding my own procedure and if so why.

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## HelpROGER

Yawwwwwn. Please, young guys are supposed to take the advice of a hotheaded old man who cant even comprehend whats being said on a radio show???  PALEEEESE!

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## topcat

No Roger they would be better served listening to an inexperienced mama’s boy for advice. Your postings make absolutely no sense and contribute zero to the forum do you even realize that?

I know your mother did your research, found the forum and the rest is history. You still know zero.

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## Still-Researching

Will not judge anyone here or take sides. Just say that I have seen in the flesh at least two who have done exactly what Topcat is describing:

Two guys who got FUE 1200-2000 grafts in temples by a top IAHRS FUE doc and shaved down to a 1-2 grade clipper all over and it looked great, they had no tell signs, so it is possible.

I have recently got a app 2400 FUE to my hair line by the same doc, my plan is not to shave it close, but I hope to have the option if I want one day, will be happy to share my views in 12 months from now.

I feel this discussion is the similar, as 5-10 years ago, when nobody believed in mega-sessions for strip, and it was said generally that this could not be done, but now many docs can do it. 

FUE of 1000 is done by at least 20 top docs with good results, 1500+ is done by a hand full of docs (max) in the world with good results, but of course that means that for many docs, it is not possible/recommendable - which is the truth. 

Also if you go to a second class doc and do this, you are in for some serious trouble and of course if "victims" of this are coming constantly to H&W then I do appreciate Jotronics comments (have a lot of respect for both H&W and Jotronic) but it does not mean that it is impossible to do it.

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## didi

http://www.fotopersbureauhca.nl/img-...-001-16775.htm

Looks like it is possible to razor shave after HT


This would not be possible with traditional methods

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## HelpROGER

Topcat you have no self control. You always take the bait, you just cant help yourself.Who on earth would take advice from a person like you? Jotronic has the right to state his opinion based on what he has seen at H&W. I think people on this forum respect him a hell of a lot more than a Neanderthal bully like you. You only wish you had a mother like mine who cares enough for me to make me think twice before having my first hair transplant. Maybe if you did you wouldn't be a bitter old man now.

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## sausage

> Topcat you have no self control. You always take the bait, you just cant help yourself.Who on earth would take advice from a person like you? Jotronic has the right to state his opinion based on what he has seen at H&W. I think people on this forum respect him a hell of a lot more than a Neanderthal bully like you. You only wish you had a mother like mine who cares enough for me to make me think twice before having my first hair transplant. Maybe if you did you wouldn't be a bitter old man now.


 Roger.....whats your current situation with your hairloss?

Are you thinking of getting a HT?

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## topcat

The fact is Roger I dont believe you to be a genuine poster. I have been around the forums for going on 14 years now and I have read your limited amount of postings which span a couple of years. They offer zero substance and basically are cheerleading type posts with the occasional need to protect some while dissuading those with a message. This is not normal for someone who is coming to the forums looking for a solution to their hair loss and screams red flag in my opinion.

It happens on most all the forums with each forum having its unique set of posters who seem to be associated with the industry. I have had my exchanges with many of them. Regardless of if this is true or not in your case prospective patients do need to understand that huge amounts of money are being made here and this does go on much to the detriment of the patient.

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## mattj

Where would we be without the outspoken posters?  We'd have a less entertaining forum, that's for sure - and the information available to new researchers wouldn't be as thorough. Sometimes he dialogue on the forums can be very...harmonious, so I welcome posters like topcat.  :Big Grin: 

Carry on, guys.

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## topcat

My nature has always been to be nice and pleasant and it still is but over the years I have learned to be not so nice with people who have bad intentions and I'm not specifically speakng about any one person in this industry. In my own work I know the difference between doing what is right and what is wrong unfortunately the world of hair transplantation is another story. Too many foxes watching the hen house so somebody needs to babysit, sad but true.

As I have written in the past it is only the patients who can change this industry by taking the time to speak up.

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## HelpROGER

> The fact is Roger I dont believe you to be a genuine poster. I have been around the forums for going on 14 years now and I have read your limited amount of postings which span a couple of years. They offer zero substance and basically are cheerleading type posts with the occasional need to protect some while dissuading those with a message. This is not normal for someone who is coming to the forums looking for a solution to their hair loss and screams red flag in my opinion.
> 
> It happens on most all the forums with each forum having its unique set of posters who seem to be associated with the industry. I have had my exchanges with many of them. Regardless of if this is true or not in your case prospective patients do need to understand that huge amounts of money are being made here and this does go on much to the detriment of the patient.


 I guess the jig is up. :Embarrassment:  You got me King Topcat. You caught me red handed, I am a shill for H&W. Please forgive me for my transgressions and give me another chance to be part of your royal forum kingdom. You see how smart Topcat is everyone, try as I might I could never fool him. :Smile: 
All hail King Topcat, King of the forums!

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## ejj

` yawn `....

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## Jotronic

Topcat,

I apologize for leaving this open for so long. One of my greatest peeves is not having time to respond how I would normally prefer. 




> Jotronic you refuted the comment that fue could be used to give the shadow of a hairline with the rest of the hair shaved fairly close to the scalp as it does not exist and seems to just be an internet rumor. This is clearly false as I have seen results such as this and better in person and several such cases have been posted to the internet. To say you have not seen these cases might very well be true but it does make me wonder when I hear that statement coming from a strip only clinic.


 I believe it is abundantly clear that you did not listen to the broadcast or at least not as clearly as you should have. The point of the show where I came in was to discuss the micro-pigmentation issue that has been debated so much lately. The conversation changed when Spencer said that instead of getting a shaved head look why don't they just get a few thousand grafts to build a hairline and then shave down. I asked him if he'd actually seen this in practice and he said he had not. My point was that a lot of things get mentioned online as if they are every day occurrences when in fact they are simply sound bites that have been repeated, over and over. He proved my point.

I then said, and I quote myself, "I have yet to see someone online that has actually gone through with this, a sprinkling of grafts with an outline of a hairline and then shave down and be able to pull off this look like "oh that guy just has a shaved down look. I've not seen it." Those were my exact words.

Keep the context in mind and that I was referring to NOT seeing someone that has been able to do this and make it look like they are not suffering major hair loss, which is the point to begin with, and just shaved their hair down. There is this idea online that a bald man can have a few thousand FUE grafts and once it is shaved short the stubble will somehow make everyone around them think they aren't bald. One would have to have a significant amount of hair transplanted to pull this off. 

Remember my photos of my head buzzed with a #4 guard on top and a #3 guard on the sides and back? I seem to recall at least one poster saying that if one's hair looks as thin as mine, with 10,000 grafts, then what's the point of getting a hair transplant? This was THE point I was trying to make by showing photos of MY own hair cut so short with so many grafts. At that length it doesn't fool anyone and this segways into my often repeated points about the sweet spot for length. But I digress.




> Jotronic I would disagree with your statement about density being the main concern when avoiding scarring in the donor area. Most of the scarring I have seen has not been so much from reducing density from its original so much but using punches that were too large along with a very poor extraction pattern. Of course density matters but I would be more concerned with these two issues firstly.


 You are also misunderstanding my words about density and scarring. The higher one's density is in the donor zone the easier it is to hide donor scarring, both FUE and strip. If one has exceptionally high donor density they can have a lot more hair removed via FUE with a low risk of having visibly depleted donor density and a much easier time concealing the donor dot scars. This is a fact, Topcat. Ask any doctor about this and they'll agree. If they don't, tell me who they are and I'd be happy to debate the issue with them.




> Jotronic why may I ask does your clinic have all these FUE tools, what is the purpose?


 Seriously, why do you think? To use them of course. To see what works best, what doesn't work at all and everything in between.




> A guarantee of growth which states a full refund if it does not grow is not necessarily a guarantee of growth. Its a guarantee of getting your money back.


 I'm not sure what your point is and I'm somewhat confused how to respond. How else is a guarantee supposed to work exactly? It it doesn't grow, you'll get your money back. This is the highest assurance that a company can provide to instill confidence in their own product, be it a hair transplant or a baby stroller. 




> I have seen my share of strip cases where there was a failure of growth or full yield. Im not blaming it on the clinic or the procedure itself as sometimes its just the patient for whatever reasons unknown. This is why in my opinion a small FUE procedure is always the safest way to dip your toe in the water and I dont think this fact can be argued.


 To be fair, you can't blame it on the technique. At all. FUE was BORN for one reason and one reason alone. No strip scar. It was not developed to be easier on the grafts. It was not developed to provide better growth. This is a fact. I too have seen my share of disaster cases, a fair bit more than you have, and I've seen them from FUE as well as strip. This "dipping" of one's toe into the water is not logical in the least and I've always wondered why a few people advocate this. What possible similarities could there possibly be between 100 FUE grafts in one session and 3000 FUE grafts in one session? Zero, absolutely zero. 




> When you say you dont offer FUE because it cant give the same result you should be more specific. Your clinic does not seem to have the necessary skill to offer it which is still good as they are good at what they do offer. As far as mega sessions of course strip would make more sense but that should be clearly stated as a reason why strip would be preferred. If we are talking about a young guy that needs 2000-3000 grafts why on earth would someone push them into having a strip procedure? Its unconscionable in my opinion.


 Respectfully you have no idea what we do and do not have the skills for. FUE is not rocket science. There is experience to be had, of course, but most of this is understanding the dynamics of hair and how it changes from one type to the next, from one ethnicity to the next, so on and so forth. Punch sizes, punch manufacturing methods, materials, hand held, mechanized, rotating, oscillating. The options can be dizzying but the basics will never change. 

We don't push anyone. The vast majority of our patients come to us for one reason. Our results. The majority could give two flips about a strip scar or FUE dots or shaving their heads. They simply want hair, and they want to get their money's worth. For those few that do insist on FUE, but for some reason think that we will offer it, we will gladly refer them to someone that does offer it. Just last week I referred a patient to two separate FUE doctors and privately contacted one of these doctors to give him the patient's contact info.

Regarding the questions you say should be asked of poor FUE clinics. You assume that the readers know whom these poor FUE clinics are. If they did, why would they bother asking them these questions? The more logical approach would be to ask these questions of ALL clinics regardless of skill, regardless of technique. But then, one would have to assume that the clinic is being honest about it if they even bother answering such questions to begin with. I think would be more easily found by looking up the Attorney General's website for the respective states that a clinic or clinics may be based out of and do a search.

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## HelpROGER

Well said Jotronic! I think its funny that people  hear or read what they want to hear or read. Topcat needs to grind that axe whenever he can. It gives him power. It not about honestly educating patients, its about being right for him.

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## sausage

I think 3000 grafts on top of a typically bald head might do enough to give an ok look shaved down.

It would get rid of the horrid skin head look, you will look like your thinning but at least you won't have the prominent horseshoe look anymore.

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## topcat

Jotronic I think where we might differ here is in our definition of shaving down. When I hear shaved down I think 1 or 2 guard and I have seen enough results to know that it can be done and look very good with no white dotting. Shaving down to the bone regardless of how good or bad it looks would seem pointless if you are having a hair transplant and this is why when the term shaving down is used I automatically believe one is referring to very short and not actually razor shaved. Maybe this should have just been stated in a clearer manner as a listener I misunderstood it as fue does not allow one to cut their hair very short. But I take full responsibility for the mistake and not listening close enough.

I think we could both agree that how this industry is most deceptive is by how they conveniently leave essential information out of the conversation. In your shoes I might have said I have not seen anyone who has had a fue procedure that was shaved to the bone and gave that patient the appearance of someone who looked like they had hair but I have seen some 1 or 2 guards that looked exceptional. Maybe you in fact have not seen a 1-2 guard that looks really good, I don’t know and maybe that is why it was not mentioned or maybe you felt it was not worth mentioning. In hindsight I do not think you did this on purpose but being a repair patient and having watched this industry for such a long time it’s an issue for me when I feel essential information is being left out of the conversation and there are many examples to be found on the forums. When I see or hear something along these lines I am very likely to comment as that is what draws me to the forums and regardless of what some might think it’s not promotion. If that were the case I would not have been posting for what’s going on 14 years now. My repair is relatively recent in the timeline.

I mean come on robots using 1mm punches, doctors doing 10,000 graft fue mega sessions, multiple strip scars, giant fue punches, and hair lines for 12 year old boys. This is only the tip of the iceberg and this is only possible for clinics by withholding critical information from the prospective patient during the decision making process. Dishonesty and withholding information these are my issues and this is where I am coming from, with no axe to grind with anyone. I expect honesty and I hold those that actually make money from this industry to a higher standard regardless if it’s direct compensation, commission, ad revenue or whatever and part of that honesty when you work in this industry is to cover every base when speaking or writing . It is my opinion that those employed in this industry are in a position of greater knowledge and with that comes the responsibility of being as clear as possible. I do it in my own line of work as I am well aware that the customer simply does not have the expertise.

As far as donor scarring and donor depletion I do not view them as the same. Sure unethical overharvesting by way of fue can make the donor area look depleted and moth eaten but it does not necessarily mean that the patient will look scarred up with white dots. That will be determined more so by the skill of the doctor in my opinion. Most of the white dot scarring I have seen has been by doctors trying to learn fue, doctors too lazy and too greedy to use a smaller hand punch or simply just not having ability and it always seems to be the same doctors. Ethical clinics do not deplete the donor area, it’s only the clinics promising 12,000 fue. Same goes for strip regardless of the laxity. When the clinic pulls so many strips that they actually start to lower the crown or raise the neck hairline they have gone too far and it happens often due to greed.

I would also state that I am not bitter about my own past experience and at the moment very pleased with the progress I have made in my own repair. But even without the repair my issues are with what I see as business as usual being continued in this industry. I mean really why should any doctor be suing a patient. That is a complete red flag. If a doctor sues a patient regardless of whom it is then do not go to that doctor, strike them off your list. The onus is on the clinic to educate the patient and completely explain the numbers. If the poor result is due to something the patient did during the healing process then it just needs to be stated by the clinic and it does happen. If the patient is just one of those rare individuals in which a hair transplant failed for whatever reason then that too should have been fully explained to him as a rare possibility but  all the clinic needs to do is say the hair transplant failed for unknown reasons and it can happen and not launch lawsuits but I digress…..lol……

The fact is just because someone possesses fue tools does not mean they can perform the procedure with a high degree of skill. The poor results and scarring out there are proof of this. Sure maybe robots and other devices will eventually offer those who do not have the skill the opportunity to pursue fue but at this point nothing compares to a skilled surgeon using a hand punch and that is my opinion. Those that are offering these robotic devices or any new technology should be required to test them on themselves and their family members first. Not some young guy that doesn’t know jack shit about how this industry operates and preys on his naivety.

It should be worded as “our guarantee is that if it does not grow we will give you your money back”. That’s very different in my opinion than a guarantee of growth. Maybe I just do too much reading and see things that others do not. But that type of wording would be considered reframing in Neuro Lingustic Programming and could be used as a marketing technique as is skews the view of reader and tends to viewed in more of a positive light. I am not saying this was your intention but the wording is important for a patient making a decision.

An example for you:
It’s very pretty outside today, but tomorrow it’s going to rain.
It’s very pretty outside today, and tomorrow it’s going to rain.
It’s very pretty outside today, even though tomorrow it’s going to rain.

These sentences describe something similar, but the change of only a word or two makes you think about the weather differently. 

The reasoning behind the smaller fue procedure in my opinion is it too definitely know without doubt as a patient that you are dealing with a competent highly skilled doctor and not wasting precious donor. It is also insurance against something lacking in one’s own physiology that might make them a poor candidate for a hair transplant whatever reason that may be and regardless of how small that risk represents. A perfect example would be one recent strip patient that had what can only be described as very poor yield from approximately 8000 fu. He then went on to have a mega session beard and bodyhair transplant with another clinic and had an equally low level of yield. Chances are very high that there might be something going on with this patient’s physiology that makes him a poor candidate. He would have been better served with a small procedure before wasting the donor and the money. It could also be that the yield would have been much higher with a smaller session having less trauma and better healing. This makes complete sense to me but I guess others do not see this.

Sure I will agree with you I don’t know for certain that H&W lacks the skills to perform fue. I’m just opining from statements that have been made in past years and only from memory as I don’t feel the need to look up every comment that has been made on the forums and cut and paste it here. But I can tell you from what I have seen over the years the percentage of doctors that can do it very well meaning high yield and minimal to zero visible scarring is very, very low.

 Jotronic I respect you for posting the information on donor reality and I respect you for recommending a patient to a highly skilled fue doctor. I think you understand where I’m coming from and none of what I say regardless of how harsh I sometimes sound should be taken personally. Sometimes I am just trying to make my own point. For instance when I read a prospective patient write that he is looking for a doctor that has experience working mostly on young guys I just shake my head. Here is a person that has access to plenty of information but refuses to see it. He will look like a circus clown in a few years with a low dense hairline with nothing left to put behind it. Of course I’m being intentionally rude but it’s in hopes of making a point and preventing this person from making a mistake.

Personally knowing what I know now I would never have a strip. I would be happy just having fue even if that meant less hair but I can’t go back in time and can only use my experience as a positive motivating force moving forward. It does not mean I am against strip if that is what someone desires, I’m only speaking for myself. Anyone that has ever asked me was always told H&W does excellent work each and every time.

We could keep going back and forth here but I understand your points and hopefully you understand mine. I have some very strong opinions and it’s not just about this industry. It is my own personal belief that too many seem to get their information from sources that are based on ad revenue while the most valuable information can only be found in books and through the experiences of others. My criticism applies to many other industries of which I have done extensive reading along with some of the idiotic comments I often hear about geopolitics or some other subject when it is just someone parroting something they heard in the main stream media which is more often than not factually incorrect. But when you ask these same people to name me the last five books they have read on the subject the answer is always zero.

Hopefully over time the cream can rise to the top in this business and those that have damaged and those that continue to damage others will get what is coming to them.

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