# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Cetirizine

## Conpecia

Looks like some other forums are experimenting with the antihistamine Cetirizine to block PGD2. Not sure if this falls into "cutting edge" treatments, but people are reporting mild regrowth in areas that have been slick for years, along with decreased shedding and decreased MPB itch, all in a relatively short time (couple months). Apparently the Germans are into it. I don't know much about it, but figured I would give you guys a heads up; maybe some other members can take the lead here with regard to the science behind it, and I'm sure some of you have heard of this already and perhaps have tried or are trying it. 

All I know is that they use this TOPICALLY, not systematically. Sorry, taking Zyrtec every day will not cure your hairloss. But crushing a lot of Zyrtec into a powder and mixing the powder with a liquid vehicle might make a topical that does something. 

I'm not advocating that anyone try this or that this even works. Just wanted to pass some positive information on and see what you guys think.

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## garethbale

Hi

Where did you see this?  Can you post a link?

Cheers

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## Conpecia

not sure if there are regulations on the type of link I can post from another hairloss site, but here you go:

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...hreadid=101616

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## Conpecia

Nobody interested in this? A guy on hairlosshelp says he's got vellus hairs sprouting all over his scalp, some of which are turning terminal. Couple other guys are chiming in and saying their MPB itch has completely stopped as well as shedding after a week of using this stuff. I'm on an iPad and can't load that German website for some reason but apparently a guy there has incredible results after 3 months. This treatment seems pretty cheap and fairly easy to whip up. Surprised people aren't all over this one. Guess I'll keep updating as I find more info.

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## hellouser

If its topical and works better than RU58841, I would gladly switch.

However, I wonder if it'd make sense to just crush the cetirizine and mix it with Minoxidil using alongside RU58841. That should cover the the entire day, DHT and PGD2 blocked. Sounds like a pretty good combo!

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## hellouser

This actually looks pretty promising! Check out the pics below, its from a thread on *****************.

Thats a LOT of very small but clearly new hairs.




> Getting more and more optimistic that Cetirizine may be a cure.
> 
> I started topical cetirizine about 5 weeks ago and things are looking good. Not as good as the
> pics below so I'm going to find some Pantostin.
> 
> This German user started minoxidil / Pantostin / cetirizine about 2 months ago:
> 
> Start minox for a year:
> 
> ...


 http://www.*****************/interact...tin-Cetirizine

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## rdawg

Those links dont work, any other way to see the pictures?

I'm intrigued by anything that has to do with PGD2.

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## hellouser

> Those links dont work, any other way to see the pictures?
> 
> I'm intrigued by anything that has to do with PGD2.


 Copy and paste the link into a new browser window or tab, they don't open via clicking on the link directly.

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## thechamp

Any sides topically this could be good news for once

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## Kirby_

IMO the most interesting thing about this are the results, which (if genuine, or genuinely from cetirizine) although not incredible, show the potential of PGD2 blocking. And cetirizine isn't even a CRTH2 antagonist...

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## thechamp

Well maybe someone can come up with a stronger pgd2 topical blocker?

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## Smega

For everyone's reference:

Pantostin = http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfatradiol

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## Kiwi

Where do I get this stuff from?

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## Conpecia

> Where do I get this stuff from?


 You get Cet from a grocery store or online. It's just an over the counter antihistamine for allergies. Crush a bunch up and combine with a vehicle and voila. Stuff's cheap.

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## Conpecia

> This actually looks pretty promising! Check out the pics below, its from a thread on *****************.
> 
> Thats a LOT of very small but clearly new hairs.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.*****************/interact...tin-Cetirizine


 Woah! Pretty obvious that something is working there. Can't wait to see what happens in a year...

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## dex89

This is really interesting, thanks OP! You think it's a good idea combining it with the BIG 3, foligain, emu oil, spiro?

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## thechamp

It's hay fever season in Australia so I go buy Zyrtec or a knock of brand and crush them in to water that's it?

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## Conpecia

> This is really interesting, thanks OP! You think it's a good idea combining it with the BIG 3, foligain, emu oil, spiro?


 Not sure man. I'm no science or medicine guy, just a dude losing his hair. Can't recommend any combos but I know some are mixing with minox.

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## Conpecia

> It's hay fever season in Australia so I go buy Zyrtec or a knock of brand and crush them in to water that's it?


 Check that first link, there are detailed instructions there.

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## thechamp

I might crush few hay fever tablets in my spectral dnc with the nansomes will probably be a epic combo!

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## Conpecia

I wonder if it's soluble in that shampoo, I will probably do it that way too if it works.

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## rdawg

anyone else attempting this? I'd love to see the affect of it on more people, whether there's any sides etc.

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## hellouser

> anyone else attempting this? I'd love to see the affect of it on more people, whether there's any sides etc.


 When taken orally (Cetirizine), these are the potential side effects:
Dryness of the mouth, nose and throat
Drowsiness
Urinary retention
Blurred vision
Nightmares
Stomach ache

I have a feeling those won't be an issue when used topically, though who knows but seeing as its deemed safe orally, i cant see many complications when use topically. The small regrowth in slick bald areas from the pictures I linked looks pretty awesome... *fingers crossed*

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## rdawg

> When taken orally (Cetirizine), these are the potential side effects:
> Dryness of the mouth, nose and throat
> Drowsiness
> Urinary retention
> Blurred vision
> Nightmares
> Stomach ache
> 
> I have a feeling those won't be an issue when used topically, though who knows but seeing as its deemed safe orally, i cant see many complications when use topically. The small regrowth in slick bald areas from the pictures I linked looks pretty awesome... *fingers crossed*


 I think the only way to get the affect anyway is topically, which does make some sense.

we'll see though, PGD2 is an interesting idea, the problem is the frustrating FDA laws. I get it that they're used to protect us from harmful sides and such, but really PGD2 could be safe and have an affect. So if some are willing to test it, they'll be able to skip the 4-5 years of clinical trials.

In theory isn't it a good thing to use PGD2 with Minoxidil to get the greatest affect?

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## thechamp

Why wait I took two yesterday for hay fever makes you tired, I wonder if we took this every day what it would do?

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## Jcm800

> Why wait I took two yesterday for hay fever makes you tired, I wonder if we took this every day what it would do?


 I guess you'd be yawning a lot.

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## thechamp

How's your hair jc I think I'm going to go back on propecia 3 times a week with a estrogen blocker from a body building shop to stop weight gain

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## thechamp

What shampoo you going to mix it with?

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## thechamp

To Asia will it be safe taking shampoo mixed with this hay fever tablets to asia :Smile: ?

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## StuckInARut

I took Cetirizine orally for roughly 16 years @ 10mg a day. I had absolutely zero hair loss issues and had a thick head of hair. I stopped gradually almost 2 years ago due to dependence effects and hair loss ensued starting about 6 months later. Could be coincidence but I'm not willing to go back on Cetirizine Hydrochloride to test it out.

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## Jcm800

What were your dependence effects?

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## StuckInARut

Well it was a gradual process but after the prolonged usage I noticed that the dosage I was taking wasn't effective any more. I began to experience intense itching spells all over my body and really itchy eyes. Also, I began to suffer from intense headaches and hives. If I increased dose to 15mg everything would go away so I figured that it was time to get off. Took me nearly 2 months to wean off by doing 10mg for a week followed by 5mg for nearly a month. I followed that with 2.5mg the rest of the way and then stopped all together. It was hell to go through that experience even though I was weaning I was still feeling withdrawal effects albeit not as bad as if I would've quit cold turkey. I never want to experience that again I mean the itching alone felt like I had bugs crawling under my skin and the headaches were so bad that normal painkillers like Tylenol didn't take them away.

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## Davey Jones

But those effects were from oral cetirizine, right, StuckInaRut?  Would this happen topically?

And more importantly, has anybody looked over these supposed German forums?  Are people actually getting results?  As long as they aren't getting any side effects, this is almost too cheap to not try.

http://www.amazon.com/CETIRIZINE-TAB...rds=CETIRIZINE

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## StuckInARut

That is correct, I took it orally. I cannot say for sure if it would happen or not is applied topically but I assume a certain amount may be absorbed through the skin.

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## hellouser

> That is correct, I took it orally. I cannot say for sure if it would happen or not is applied topically but I assume a certain amount may be absorbed through the skin.


 I think it would need to get into your bloodstream to make any kind of effect, much like using RU. 

I'm thinking of giving it a go myself...

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## Conpecia

> But those effects were from oral cetirizine, right, StuckInaRut?  Would this happen topically?
> 
> And more importantly, has anybody looked over these supposed German forums?  Are people actually getting results?  As long as they aren't getting any side effects, this is almost too cheap to not try.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/CETIRIZINE-TAB...rds=CETIRIZINE


 I've seen a few pics of a German user who has very impressive early regrowth from 2 months. A guy named Casperz on hairloss talk is using it and reports that his shedding has stopped and he's getting terminal hairs in areas that have been slick bald for years. Several others on *** are reporting that shedding has stopped. I'm going to monitor this for a month and give it a try if the good news keeps pouring in.

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## thechamp

Looks like the kitchen sink is the way to go made my own topical fin with spectral dnc see how it goes,then i get on the hay fever tablets wagon soon

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## Davey Jones

> I've seen a few pics of a German user who has very impressive early regrowth from 2 months. A guy named Casperz on hairloss talk is using it and reports that his shedding has stopped and he's getting terminal hairs in areas that have been slick bald for years. Several others on *** are reporting that shedding has stopped. I'm going to monitor this for a month and give it a try if the good news keeps pouring in.


 I'll probably try this soon too.  Are you going to do the "dissolve in water to strain out the insoluble pill-matter" thing?  Seems easy enough.  And are you going with a special vehicle, or are you just going to apply the solution with water to your head?

Keep us updated.  I'll do the same, soon as I can get around to getting some of this.

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## Conpecia

> I'll probably try this soon too.  Are you going to do the "dissolve in water to strain out the insoluble pill-matter" thing?  Seems easy enough.  And are you going with a special vehicle, or are you just going to apply the solution with water to your head?
> 
> Keep us updated.  I'll do the same, soon as I can get around to getting some of this.


 I'm not sure. I'll probably apply it at night, so appearance won't be a factor. I think I'll just see what vehicle others use most effectively and go for that in a month. If I can maintain what I have until a better regrowth treatment comes out in a few years I'll be beyond relieved. Will def keep everyone updated.

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## dex89

> I've seen a few pics of a German user who has very impressive early regrowth from 2 months. A guy named Casperz on hairloss talk is using it and reports that his shedding has stopped and he's getting terminal hairs in areas that have been slick bald for years. Several others on *** are reporting that shedding has stopped. I'm going to monitor this for a month and give it a try if the good news keeps pouring in.


 Please let us know what rout your using. I was planning on just adding it on my minoxidil.

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## mjolnir

Is anyone trying this out independent of other treatments? Would be nice to get some vaguely scientific data.

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## garethbale

I might give this a try.  Can I just add it to a hairloss topical like minox?

Also, what is the correct daily dosage?

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## thechamp

Can we use minoxidil? With this

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## Davey Jones

> Is anyone trying this out independent of other treatments? Would be nice to get some vaguely scientific data.


 I'm not using anything.  I do take Toco Sorb, but not for hairloss, nor have I noticed any difference in my hair one way or the other from taking it.  Outside of that, nothing.  Virgin soil up there.  I plan on ordering some cetirizine the fifth (payday).

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## thechamp

So how should I Add this to my treatments topical minoxidil how many tablets in 60 mls , or shampoo ?

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## thechamp

http://www.*************/hair-loss/b...casc-DESC.html

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## rdawg

> http://www.*************/hair-loss/b...casc-DESC.html


 link doesnt work

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## thechamp

I found this)Is it necessary to use this in an alcohol based vehicle? I'm up for trying it - it's cheap and very easy to get hold of but I don't want to make an alcohol based chemical solution. I actually apply apple cider vinegar to my scalp every night as it helps me with scalp itch and seems to thicken up my hair so i was wondering if I just dissolved some cetrizine into a bottle of that would it be ok? Can't see that it would do any harm. 

I want to make this so shampoo or something any one got any ideas how to make this using alcohol as a vehicle looks like it makes you shed

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## Conpecia

From what I've seen on the other forums there's a very intense shed that last 2-3 weeks. I wish I had more answers for you guys but I'm just going by what I've read elsewhere and I have no independent analyses. My plan is to monitor the German forum and ************ until January and if I see photographic evidence of regrowth or absolute cessation of further loss I will mimic whatever the most popular vehicle is and go for it. My hesitations are that people start getting unwanted sides or the intense sheds don't grow back. There is NO evidence to support that but I'm just playing it safe. When the coast is clear I will spring on it and let everyone know my vehicle and application procedures, etc. 

For what it's worth I have yet to hear one bad thing about this treatment; rather, several people are benefitting. This may be the bridge from now to Bit/Histogen, that's what I'm hoping for. I wish more people were researching this, it seems like a diamond in the rough: cheap, easily applied, no sides, seems to be effective, yet Trx2 and the other bullshit gets all the hype...

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## rdawg

> From what I've seen on the other forums there's a very intense shed that last 2-3 weeks. I wish I had more answers for you guys but I'm just going by what I've read elsewhere and I have no independent analyses. My plan is to monitor the German forum and ************ until January and if I see photographic evidence of regrowth or absolute cessation of further loss I will mimic whatever the most popular vehicle is and go for it. My hesitations are that people start getting unwanted sides or the intense sheds don't grow back. There is NO evidence to support that but I'm just playing it safe. When the coast is clear I will spring on it and let everyone know my vehicle and application procedures, etc. 
> 
> For what it's worth I have yet to hear one bad thing about this treatment; rather, several people are benefitting. This may be the bridge from now to Bit/Histogen, that's what I'm hoping for. I wish more people were researching this, it seems like a diamond in the rough: cheap, easily applied, no sides, seems to be effective, yet Trx2 and the other bullshit gets all the hype...


 I'd be very interested in this stuff as well, but I too want to see other brave peoples results from the stuff before I try it!

I also wouldn't mind if a more scientific person could comment on the stuff.

has anyone on the other forums already been using this for a while?

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## thechamp

Ok they have found hay fever tablets to use as a topical there must be other medications that block pgd2 and we can use topically with better results?

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## Desmond84

BTW Guys,

You're Dr. Costralis's first test subjects. If this works you will prove he was right all along! 

Also on a side note, what if PGD2 has nothing to do with hair growth but rather fibrosis. What if it gets released at a late stage hairloss to completely destroy that hair follicle so that vellus hairs don't come out as well (the slick bald look)!

So maybe by taking this stuff, you keep your follicles in a healthy enough state untill Aderans/Replicel/Histogen comes along. 

-Just a thought  :Embarrassment:

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## Desmond84

OK guys, I've done a bit of research to see how would you go about making a topical Cetrizine.

So, this is what I found: Cetrizine is completely water-soluble, which is awesome!

To make a topical preparation, you need:

1) Aloe Vera gel

2) Propylene glycol (would significantly help with epidermal absorption. If you can't get your pharmacist to get you some, look at the ingredients in your Aloe vera gel and make sure there's some Propylene glycol in there  :Smile:  )

3) 2x Zyrtec tablets

4) 8 mL of water

5) 2 mL of ethanol


Now, you have to crush 2x Zyrtec tablets and dissolve it in 8 mL of water. Please note, these tablets are made up of fillers, which don't dissolve and will sediment, so stir it for a good minute and ignore what's actually sedimented to the bottom undissolved.

Next, you add 2 mL of ethanol + 2 mL of Propylene glycol and stir vigorously again! 

Now, each night before you go to bed, you syringe out 3mL from the solution you've prepared and pour it into a cup. Then add some Aloe vera gel and stir again. Once it looks mixed, dab all of it onto your balding/thinning areas!

and Voila you're done!

The great thing about Aloe vera gel is fast rate of absorption particularly in hairy areas of the body  :Smile:

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## Desmond84

With regards to Zyrtec (Cetrizine) safety, I can assure you that it is probably one of the safest drugs we have on the market! There are very rare reports of side effects associated with its oral use, the most common one is drowsiness (in 14%) which I doubt would happen when you use it topically!

Nevertheless, I thought I should list all the side effects EVER reported just so you know what to expect  :Wink:  Here it goes:

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## Conpecia

> OK guys, I've done a bit of research to see how would you go about making a topical Cetrizine.
> 
> So, this is what I found: Cetrizine is completely water-soluble, which is awesome!
> 
> To make a topical preparation, you need:
> 
> 1) Aloe Vera gel
> 
> 2) Propylene glycol (would significantly help with epidermal absorption. If you can't get your pharmacist to get you some, look at the ingredients in your Aloe vera gel and make sure there's some Propylene glycol in there  )
> ...


 Thanks Desmond! This is exactly the kind of post we need here. One question, when you say 2x Zyrtec, does that mean 2 pills? Surely you need to crush up a bunch more than that, right? I think guys in other forums are using 60 10mg pills.

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## Conpecia

> I'd be very interested in this stuff as well, but I too want to see other brave peoples results from the stuff before I try it!
> 
> I also wouldn't mind if a more scientific person could comment on the stuff.
> 
> has anyone on the other forums already been using this for a while?


 Yeah, a guy named Casperz on ************ reported that his shedding stopped and dark hairs have started sprouting up around his original hairline, which has been slick bald for years. He's got photos but it's too early to tell if those hairs will keep growing in.

Then of course there's the German dude who has tons of tiny black hairs sprouting up all around his slick bald area. Those pics were posted in this thread somewhere. If that German's hair keeps thickening up front I am all over this. Never seen frontal regrowth with that much promise before. A bunch of other people at *** have jumped on board. By February we should have a pretty damn good idea of what we've got on our hands (or rather on our heads).

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## ovoxo

i'm also curious how many tablets you should crush

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## Desmond84

> Thanks Desmond! This is exactly the kind of post we need here. One question, when you say 2x Zyrtec, does that mean 2 pills? Surely you need to crush up a bunch more than that, right? I think guys in other forums are using 60 10mg pills.


 Hey Conpecia, yeah I meant 2 pills. 

Also, the maximum oral dose per day for Zyrtec is 10mg daily. If you follow what I said, you'd be putting 5mg on your scalp every night, which is a decent amount.

But if you wanna use the maximum dose possible you can crush up 4 tablets and dissolve it in the same amount of water (8mL), ethanol (2mL) and Propylene Glycol (2mL). Then measure out 3 mL as explained and voila  :Smile: 

I just thought, that since its a topical, you don't need to use the maximum dose. But don't crush up any more than that. Even though Zyrtec is a very safe drug, using high doses will have unpredictable effects on your liver and kidneys. I'm just trying to make sure that ppl don't harm themselves due to false information on these forums.  

PS. Did they say how much solution they're using to dissolve the 60 tablets in?

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## hellouser

> Hey Conpecia, yeah I meant 2 pills. 
> 
> Also, the maximum oral dose per day for Zyrtec is 10mg daily. If you follow what I said, you'd be putting 5mg on your scalp every night, which is a decent amount.
> 
> But if you wanna use the maximum dose possible you can crush up 4 tablets and dissolve it in the same amount of water (8mL), ethanol (2mL) and Propylene Glycol (2mL). Then measure out 3 mL as explained and voila 
> 
> I just thought, that since its a topical, you don't need to use the maximum dose. But don't crush up any more than that. Even though Zyrtec is a very safe drug, using high doses will have unpredictable effects on your liver and kidneys. I'm just trying to make sure that ppl don't harm themselves due to false information on these forums.  
> 
> PS. Did they say how much solution they're using to dissolve the 60 tablets in?


 Someone needs to put up a youtube tutorial video on how to do it properly, would make it *very* easy for everyone.

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## thechamp

Surely this is the most promising treatment ATM ??? So why arnt more people talking about it?

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## rdawg

wow desmond you've made me even more interested in this stuff, seems really easy to get a hold of/make
still though i want to see what people experience from it!

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## thechamp

I'm waiting being a Norwood one I don't wanna shed all my hair?

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## Buy The Ticket

> wow desmond you've made me even more interested in this stuff, seems really easy to get a hold of/make
> still though i want to see what people experience from it!


 Same here. If by Christmas time results are still positive and there is still a buzz around this stuff, I'll be giving it a go. The next 6-8 months will be my last stand against the (possibly) inevitable shaved head/more facial hair look...

Which I will tell everyone is by choice, of course : )

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## Kirby_

> Someone needs to put up a youtube tutorial video on how to do it properly, would make it *very* easy for everyone.


 Definitely, this.

Incidentally, it's pretty amazing that there's more photos of (alleged) cetirizine regrowth than there is of regrowth from more commonly used exprimental treatments like RU.

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## Pate

> OK guys, I've done a bit of research to see how would you go about making a topical Cetrizine.
> 
> So, this is what I found: Cetrizine is completely water-soluble, which is awesome!
> 
> To make a topical preparation, you need:
> 
> 1) Aloe Vera gel
> 
> 2) Propylene glycol (would significantly help with epidermal absorption. If you can't get your pharmacist to get you some, look at the ingredients in your Aloe vera gel and make sure there's some Propylene glycol in there  )
> ...


 Love your work, Desmond, you're a hero! I want to try this on just one side of my scalp so I can really compare results. The hairs of they grow in will only be visible to myself unless they reeeeeaally start going terminal, at which point I'll add the other side too!

A couple of questions though... Where is the best place for the average joe to buy PG and ethanol? Also, if this stuff is completely water soluble, what is the point of them? Is it just to help with evaporation? 

If so, could you theoretically just put the water solution in an aloe gel and forget the PG & ethanol?

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## thechamp

Ethanol hardware store :Smile:

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## Conpecia

> Hey Conpecia, yeah I meant 2 pills. 
> 
> Also, the maximum oral dose per day for Zyrtec is 10mg daily. If you follow what I said, you'd be putting 5mg on your scalp every night, which is a decent amount.
> 
> But if you wanna use the maximum dose possible you can crush up 4 tablets and dissolve it in the same amount of water (8mL), ethanol (2mL) and Propylene Glycol (2mL). Then measure out 3 mL as explained and voila 
> 
> I just thought, that since its a topical, you don't need to use the maximum dose. But don't crush up any more than that. Even though Zyrtec is a very safe drug, using high doses will have unpredictable effects on your liver and kidneys. I'm just trying to make sure that ppl don't harm themselves due to false information on these forums.  
> 
> PS. Did they say how much solution they're using to dissolve the 60 tablets in?


 Ah, your instructions were for a single application. Makes perfect sense, as 60 pills would equal a one month supply at 10mgs a day. Thanks again. I checked the German board and there were a lot of pics up but I couldn't view them! From what they said it appeared that shedding has stopped and vellus hairs are popping up, but again no huge gains. Remember that the German who experienced the incredible growth was combining Cet with minox and a third treatment I believe, something that started with a P. At this point though I am focused solely on maintenance and if it stops shedding I will be content with or without regrowth.

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## Conpecia

> Love your work, Desmond, you're a hero! I want to try this on just one side of my scalp so I can really compare results. The hairs of they grow in will only be visible to myself unless they reeeeeaally start going terminal, at which point I'll add the other side too!
> 
> A couple of questions though... Where is the best place for the average joe to buy PG and ethanol? Also, if this stuff is completely water soluble, what is the point of them? Is it just to help with evaporation? 
> 
> If so, could you theoretically just put the water solution in an aloe gel and forget the PG & ethanol?


 Casperz has regrowth and he used tap water alone.

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## thechamp

Since I'm already on minoxidil why can't I add Zyrtec tablets to minoxidil 60 ml?

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## rdawg

> Since I'm already on minoxidil why can't I add Zyrtec tablets to minoxidil 60 ml?


 I would like to know this as well. 

Also I hope people keep track in pictures and such, hopefully we can get a group of people trying this for a decent sample size.

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## GuyFromUK

I wouldn't get too excited just because 1 guy from Germany claims to have had good results from it. It's not very scientifically accurate just 1 guy's possible experiences.

Unless I mis-read the posts on him he supposedly started on Minoxidil not too long before he started experimenting with this. When I started on minoxidil I had a huge shed for just over 2 months and then massive re-growth up until about month 7. 

If this guy is getting a re-growth and is also on minoxidil then surely isn't it reasonable to assume that it's the Minoxidil causing his re-growth. After all Minoxidil has been FDA approved to give re-growth in some of its users (I for one am one of them)

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## Conpecia

> I wouldn't get too excited just because 1 guy from Germany claims to have had good results from it. It's not very scientifically accurate just 1 guy's possible experiences.
> 
> Unless I mis-read the posts on him he supposedly started on Minoxidil not too long before he started experimenting with this. When I started on minoxidil I had a huge shed for just over 2 months and then massive re-growth up until about month 7. 
> 
> If this guy is getting a re-growth and is also on minoxidil then surely isn't it reasonable to assume that it's the Minoxidil causing his re-growth. After all Minoxidil has been FDA approved to give re-growth in some of its users (I for one am one of them)


 I agree that it's too early to tell if we're really on to something here, but there are several other accounts of decreased shedding and mild regrowth, many of which were made by people not on minox. Casperz for example is not on minox and is showing photographs of mild regrowth of terminal hairs in areas that have been bald for years. I for one am not expecting some cure from this, I'm only hoping it may slow down or stop my shedding until Histogen et al come to market. 

However, I am stating firmly that this is bigger than some lone German dude getting minox regrowth.

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## GuyFromUK

That's good to hear you have so much faith in it conpecia.

You have to admit though it's funny the idea of a load of guys crushing up their hayfever tablets and rubbing it in to their head every night. I hope for their sakes that it works.

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## Pate

> I wouldn't get too excited just because 1 guy from Germany claims to have had good results from it. It's not very scientifically accurate just 1 guy's possible experiences.
> 
> Unless I mis-read the posts on him he supposedly started on Minoxidil not too long before he started experimenting with this. When I started on minoxidil I had a huge shed for just over 2 months and then massive re-growth up until about month 7. 
> 
> If this guy is getting a re-growth and is also on minoxidil then surely isn't it reasonable to assume that it's the Minoxidil causing his re-growth. After all Minoxidil has been FDA approved to give re-growth in some of its users (I for one am one of them)


 I don't think anybody is getting too excited. We're way too cynical by this stage for that, we've seen the snake oil cures come and just as quickly fade into oblivion.

But this is a readily available product that's easy to prepare and apply, with at least some anecdotal evidence that it works and a strong theoretical backing for it working (PGD2 inhibition).

The other big thing it has going for it is, nobody is trying to sell us anything, so that takes the whole commercial aspect out of it. No dodgy photos under different lights or website testimonials trying to get us to buy the product, these guys reporting their results don't make a dime because we buy Zyrtec from a pharmacy.

Also, the guy on minox had been on it for 12 months before starting this treatment so any growth should have stabilised (also you very rarely if ever hear of terminal hairs growing at the hairline in slick bald areas with minox). 

The one thing I am worried about (since I gave up on minox) is that there is a theory that minox works as a sort of proxy PGE stimulator like bimatoprost - and if that is true, it may be that you need both cetirizine AND minox to get growth. Suppress PGD2 and stimulate PGE.

That would be something else for me to try, if I could be arsed - one side just cetirizine and one side minox and cet. But I really can't be bothered with twice a day application of anything these days.

----------


## thechamp

Well I'm going to buy generic Zyrtec, is there any point crushing them in minoxidil ? Or not?

----------


## Conpecia

Guyfromuk, I don't have too much faith in it, just clarifying that this is distinct from one man's minox regrowth.

Pate, I'm also wary of the possible necessity of a Cet minox combo. Hopefully we can benefit without minox though.

I contacted Casperz for a general update, here's what he had to say:

"The dramatic difference right now is I've got no shedding at all. I normally see many hairs in my sink and bathroom counter and I'm not seeing any at all which is very unusual so that is a plus. I'm also seeing more and more small black hairs. It's hard to see any growth but they've  only been visible for a couple of weeks now. I think I'm going to stop watching so close and let things happen. 

Right now there are no negatives. The insomnia I experience the first few weeks seems to be gone as well as the eye dryness. My scalp looks and feels healthier than it has in a long time. Bottom line is I'm waiting like everyone else."



I've taken a huge hit on the hairline this year and I'm starting to get desperate for  something to just freeze my loss until 2015. I'll be giving this a go as soon as I get a few more confirmations that this indeed is stopping sheds. It's far too simple not to make an effort.

----------


## Conpecia

> Well I'm going to buy generic Zyrtec, is there any point crushing them in minoxidil ? Or not?


 I would just make a separate topical for Zyrtec. But do your research, check out the other forums who are on to this. We're all a bit behind but catching up.

----------


## thechamp

We will see what happens

----------


## rdawg

> I don't think anybody is getting too excited. We're way too cynical by this stage for that, we've seen the snake oil cures come and just as quickly fade into oblivion.
> 
> But this is a readily available product that's easy to prepare and apply, with at least some anecdotal evidence that it works and a strong theoretical backing for it working (PGD2 inhibition).
> 
> The other big thing it has going for it is, nobody is trying to sell us anything, so that takes the whole commercial aspect out of it. No dodgy photos under different lights or website testimonials trying to get us to buy the product, these guys reporting their results don't make a dime because we buy Zyrtec from a pharmacy.
> 
> Also, the guy on minox had been on it for 12 months before starting this treatment so any growth should have stabilised (also you very rarely if ever hear of terminal hairs growing at the hairline in slick bald areas with minox). 
> 
> The one thing I am worried about (since I gave up on minox) is that there is a theory that minox works as a sort of proxy PGE stimulator like bimatoprost - and if that is true, it may be that you need both cetirizine AND minox to get growth.* Suppress PGD2 and stimulate PGE.*
> ...


 I am interested in mixing it with Minoxidil(is this possible? not sure if it's been answered) for this reason. Inhibit whats causing the loss(theoretically) and promote/stimulate the follicles to grow.

and I dont think I've ever seen minoxidil cause growth in slick bald areas(especially after using it for 12 months already.)

this is an interesting product and I'll be monitoring other people's progress(for safety reasons).

anyone got the approximate cost on say a month's supply to make this stuff?

----------


## Pate

Extremely cheap. I found 50 Zyrtec pills online for $30 Australian and I bet it's cheaper in the US and UK because the Australian dollar is ridiculously high right now. Desmond seems to think one pill per day is a good start so that's a nearly 2mth supply.

If you just put it in distilled water you basically just need to buy a big bottle of that from a hardware store or something it will last you ages.

You could put it in minox but remember it dissolves in water so water would be better to extract it from the pills.

Still hoping Desmond gets back to my previous questions, it's so handy having a pharmacist around!

----------


## rdawg

http://www.amazon[dot]com/Zyrtec-Allergy-Relief-Tablets-Count/dp/B0034KYA36

are those what I need. 70 for 15 bucks!?

----------


## hellouser

> http://www.amazon[dot]com/Zyrtec-Allergy-Relief-Tablets-Count/dp/B0034KYA36
> 
> are those what I need. 70 for 15 bucks!?


 If this works better than RU, I'm going to save so much cash..... lol.

----------


## rdawg

> If this works better than RU, I'm going to save so much cash..... lol.


 Gets even cheaper went on another amazon page and found 30 for 1.86$. 

honestly might pick them up just to keep them handy.

I have a feeling zyrtec pills might get sold out all over the place if this somehow works and they'll have no idea why haha

----------


## hellouser

> Gets even cheaper went on another amazon page and found 30 for 1.86$. 
> 
> honestly might pick them up just to keep them handy.
> 
> I have a feeling zyrtec pills might get sold out all over the place if this somehow works and they'll have no idea why haha


 Wouldnt it be best to find what 'ingredient' is responsible for blocking PGD2 and finding pills that contain MORE of said 'ingredient' making it most effective?

----------


## rdawg

> Wouldnt it be best to find what 'ingredient' is responsible for blocking PGD2 and finding pills that contain MORE of said 'ingredient' making it most effective?


 If we're going by what desmond said and a couple others wouldn't TOO much dosage be bad?

although referring specifically to pgd2, what other pills contain that blocking PGD2 affect? let's go to work guys.

----------


## hellouser

> If we're going by what desmond said and a couple others wouldn't TOO much dosage be bad?
> 
> although referring specifically to pgd2, what other pills contain that blocking PGD2 affect? let's go to work guys.


 I have a friend whos a chemist, used to work for the military in biological development and defense. Gonna see if he can give me some input on the matter.  :Smile:

----------


## JJacobs152

> If we're going by what desmond said and a couple others wouldn't TOO much dosage be bad?
> 
> although referring specifically to pgd2, what other pills contain that blocking PGD2 affect? let's go to work guys.


 
Aspirin would actually be your best bet (SARCASM). However, not sure how this would pan out. Hopefully, the side effects would stay topically. Other drugs that would act at the top enzyme in the chart below include all the NSAID drugs such as ibuprofen. 

However, I wouldn't use aspirin, just because you need the other prostaglandins to function properly. Also, increased intake of aspirin or any other non steroidal antiinflammatory increases the risk for gastric ulcers.

----------


## thechamp

Some people where talking about aspirin on anôther forum come guys let's get mpb out of our lives :Smile:

----------


## rdawg

> Some people where talking about aspirin on anôther forum come guys let's get mpb out of our lives


 The person above said why you SHOULDNT use aspirin. However other alternatives may be out there that are better PGD2 inhibitors than zyrtec. I am no scientist though, So I dont want to start using things that are harmful.

----------


## JJacobs152

> Some people where talking about aspirin on anôther forum come guys let's get mpb out of our lives


 You're best bet is going with a selective Cox-2 inhibitor. This will reduce the amount of PGD2 without having the harsh systemic effects of completely blocking out prostaglandin synthesis (ie vasoconstriction, renal failure, acute gastritis, etc etc). The drug on the market that is a selective cox-2 inhibitor is ka Celecoxib. 

Paging Desmond & unk to share more insight on the pharm behind this. Honestly, if you can reduce PGD2 levels in the scalp, without affecting the levels elsewhere in the body - you'll be set.

----------


## Desmond84

Oh NO!

Guys I just came across this study and it seems like Cetrizine will not alter PGD2 all that much.

Loratadine (Claratyne) however, showed marked reduction of PGD2! So could these guys just be having a placebo effect?!

Here's the link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7690526  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Desmond84

Also, guys DO NOT USE NSIADs, Aspirin or COX-2 inhibitors for hairloss!!!

MPB is a chronic condition, but these drugs can not be taken on a chronic basis. You will end up with some nasty adverse effects 2-3 months into it.

I'll be doing more research on potential antihistamines and will get back to you  :Wink:

----------


## JJacobs152

> Also, guys DO NOT USE NSIADs, Aspirin or COX-2 inhibitors for hairloss!!!
> 
> MPB is a chronic condition, but these drugs can not be taken on a chronic basis. You will end up with some nasty adverse effects 2-3 months into it.
> 
> I'll be doing more research on potential antihistamines and will get back to you


 Why not a cox-2? It won't lead to the s/e of cox-1 inhibition...

----------


## Desmond84

> Why not a cox-2? It won't lead to the s/e of cox-1 inhibition...


 JJ,

It's COX-2 selectivity is only relevant in terms of reducing Gastrointestinal adverse effects (ulcers, indigestion, reflux) NOT its renal & cardiovascular complications. We have patients on Celecoxib for arthritis and they suffer from a range of sides due to their need to use this stuff long term. Here's some of its potential long-term effects:
Aggravated hypertension,
Angina pectoris,
coronary artery disorder,
MI,
arrhythmia
Aggrevation of prostate disorders
etc

----------


## Desmond84

After 6 months or so it also can elevate your liver function tests (ALT & AST), which might have some potential damage to your liver!

Unfortunately, COX-2 NSAIDs didn't end up being as awesome as they made it out to be  :Frown: 

That's why 4 of them went off the market due to their potential to cause fatal liver toxicity (hepatotoxicity) and Myocardial infarctions (heart attacks)  :Frown:

----------


## thechamp

» I'm curious what you have to say but keep in mind that I personally would
» prefer a legitimate PGD2 antagonist made by a drug company over some health
» food store kind of thing where people say bread crust inhibits PGD2 or
» seaweed or some such thing. 
» 
» I'm not disrespecting you but i do want to say that we really should be
» focused on real drugs and not gimmicky things that are not going to work. 
» The thing is that you want to apply or digest a drug that antagonizes the
» PGD2 in a potent and pure manner. I really don't go for these gimmicky
» shortcuts.
» 
» That having been said I would be interested in what you have to say
» although I am concerned that it will be some kind of gimmicky trick to try
» to inhibit PGD2 in a way that simply will not get the job done.

I am talking about a known drug that is off patent now and successfully used everyday by people to treat nasal allergies and asthma. Cromolyn Sodium or other mast cell stabilizers. 

Mast cells secrete PGD2. When you use a stabilzer they cannot do this.

The problem is when you use it for instance in the over the counter preperation NASALCROM. you need to use it consistantly a minimum of 4 times a day to keep the mast cells stabilized. For some people it takes a few weeks have a really good effect.

IT DEFINATELY WORKS. UNEQUIVICAL 

Questions are.

What concentration and what vehicle for scalp?

Will people want to rub something on their head every 4 to 5 hours?

Perhaps there is a solution that will get the stuff into your scalp without messing up your hair too bad and you can give a misting multiple times a day with something that will dry quickly.

Then perhaps suspend it in something that you put on at night that would stay moist and keep it effective while you sleep ( 8 hours) and washed out in morning.

My only point really is. There is a KNOWN drug produced by pharma RIGHT NOW that definitely inhibits PGD2.This is just factual. Easily looked up.

Even if it didnt completely inhibit it or it was impractical to apply so often PERHAPS the amount of inhibition would reduce the current finding of 2-3 times the amount of PGD2 in balding scalp to non balding. 

AS you mentioned in another post ( i believe it was you) I could see this making something like bimatoprost more effective.

Add in other known cox-2 inhibitors (even simple stuff like aspirin which is proven). I personally have faith in Tumeric/Curcumin (even sloan kettering suggests it is helpful with inflammation and cancer). And MAYBE just maybe you get a synergistic or even multiplier effect. Hit it from multiple angles.

Actually I would think that ANYTHING that reduces inflammation would help ANY other treatment even if it was a sliver bullet itself. ESPECIALLY something that so directly inhibits inflammation like a mast cell stabilizer.

ALSO VERY IMPORTANT IN MY MIND. In my research I have found that one of the ways to de stabilize a mast cell and cause it to release PGD2 is expose it to alcohol. ALC is in almost every thing you put on your dang scalp. So you put something on to clean, stimulate your hair and BAM!!!!! you cause PGD2 to be released probably making it ineffective. It would appear that bald scalp is in a state of allergic/hyper immune response so anything that would promote mast cell degranulation which is probably happening at elevated levels already would be like ALC on a fire.

Phew. OK So it would seem that a mast cell stabilzer SHOULD BE IN ALL PREPARATIONS that contain ALC!!! 




Rudy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

----------


## Desmond84

> » I'm curious what you have to say but keep in mind that I personally would
> » prefer a legitimate PGD2 antagonist made by a drug company over some health
> » food store kind of thing where people say bread crust inhibits PGD2 or
> » seaweed or some such thing. 
> » 
> » I'm not disrespecting you but i do want to say that we really should be
> » focused on real drugs and not gimmicky things that are not going to work. 
> » The thing is that you want to apply or digest a drug that antagonizes the
> » PGD2 in a potent and pure manner. I really don't go for these gimmicky
> ...


 Hey champ  :Smile: 

I've been thinking about Cromolyns as well. The trouble is PGD2 gets released by a host of immune cells, mast cells is only one of them. It might work though. We have to find out which immune cells are responsible for releasing PGD2 in the scalp. I'll be doing a bit of research on it this weekend and we'll get back to you guys.

But Cromolyns are definitely an option, no doubt about it. AND THEY ARE LITERALLY SIDE EFFECT FREE!!! There's literally no common side effect ever reported on this stuff which is awesome

----------


## thechamp

How do we get Cromolyns? From where

----------


## thechamp

Post reply
http://http://www.valuepharmaceuticals.com/Indocin.php

Indometacin - Shown to block dp2 (crth2 receptor)

We already have the cures available.
Get the powder form and make your own topical since I didn't find any online.

Or use a compounding pharmacy overseas perhaps.

For DP1 receptor blockade aspirin works great. The topical form
of aspirin is salicylic acid which is a common acne/skin treatment topical obtained from any store.

Bengay also contains a very similar ingredient as to aspirin and it also helps relax muscles ( the galea and other areas that give male pattern baldness the shape)

Also, DP2 when it is increased, get this: increases intracellular CALCIUM

That is what me and many others have been saying , that calcification leads to hair follicle death. Well now we know that happens due to DP2. 

Vinegar I think is another item (acetic acid) that i think is a dp2 receptor antagonist. 

So instead of waiting for some company to make pills and products that actually already exist and by the way turns out this research on dp2 has been released partially already for many years... so I dont' see why Costralies or whatever his name is taking all the credit.

----------


## Pate

> Oh NO!
> 
> Guys I just came across this study and it seems like Cetrizine will not alter PGD2 all that much.
> 
> Loratadine (Claratyne) however, showed marked reduction of PGD2! So could these guys just be having a placebo effect?!
> 
> Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7690526


 Interesting. So according to that model, Claratyne should be far more effective than Zyrtec - assuming Claratyne is also easily water-soluble and can be absorbed topically.

Although I guess we need to keep in mind that that article is referring to a very specific model called nasal antigen challenge, which may not apply to either the scalp in particular or the rest of the body generally.

We have found other papers that cite Zyrtec as inhibiting PGD2 so it may just be that in this particular nasal situation that Claratyne is better than Zyrtec.

But still. Sounds like somebody needs to try Claratyne too!

Any info on Claratyne's solubility in water?

----------


## thechamp

Funny you say that my uncle is 63 years old takes Claratyne every day for allergies has a full head of hair!!

----------


## thechamp

(loratadine) Tablets, Syrup, and Rapidly-Disintegrating Tablets
Now available Over-The-Counter (OTC); No prescription needed.

DRUG DESCRIPTION
Loratadine is a white to off-white powder not soluble in water, but very soluble in acetone, alcohol, and chloroform. It has a molecular weight of 382.89, and empirical formula of C22H23CIN2O2; its chemical name is ethyl 4-(8-chloro-5,6-dihydro-11H-benzo[5,6]cyclohepta[1,2-b]pyridin-11-ylidene) -1-piperidinecarboxylate and has the following structural formula:


CLARITIN Tablets contain 10 mg micronized loratadine, an antihistamine, to be administered orally. It also contains the following inactive ingredients: corn starch, lactose, and magnesium stearate.

CLARITIN Syrup contains 1 mg/mL micronized loratadine, an antihistamine, to be administered orally. It also contains the following inactive ingredients:citric acid, edetate disodium, artificial flavor, glycerin, propylene glycol, sodium ben-zoate, sugar, and water. The pH is between 2.5 and 3.1.

CLARITIN REDITABS (loratadine rapidly-disintegrating tablets)contain 10 mg micronized loratadine, an antihistamine, to be administered orally. It disintegrates in the mouth within seconds after placement on the tongue, allowing its contents to be subsequently swallowed with or without water. CLARITIN REDITABS (loratadine rapidly-disintegrating tablets) also contain the following inactive ingredients: citric acid, gelatin, mannitol, and mint flavor.

What are the possible side effects of loratadine?

Get emergency medical help if you have any of these signs of an allergic reaction: hives; difficult breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat.

Call your doctor at once if you have a serious side effect such as:

fast or uneven heart rate;
feeling like you might pass out;
jaundice (yellowing of your skin or eyes); or
seizures (convulsions).
Less serious side effects may include:

headache;
nervousness;
feeling tired or drowsy;
stomach pain, diarrhea;
dry mouth, sore throat...

----------


## ovoxo

so maybe ethanol/ppg vehicle for loratadine?

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys,

I thought it was really odd how Cetirizine had shown no effect on PGD2, particularly since Cetirizine is far more effective than Loratadine (Claratyne) & Fexofenadine (Telfast) when it comes to SKIN allergies.

So I did a lot of digging and found that within 5 hours of its oral use it inhibits PGD2 production in the skin by at least 50%!

I think the previous study was looking at PGD2 levels in nasal mucosa. I guess it makes sense. For example, antihistamines don't seem to work when you have a runny nose due to a cold (minimum effect on PGD2 in the nose) so we have to resort to Sudafed (Pseudoephedrine) to dry up and unblock our nose  :Smile: 

Here's a study for you guys to look at. This was conducted during its approval process  :Wink: 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2469708

So, stick to Cetirizine for now, until I dig up more info on Cromolyns.

P.S. If Cromolyns are more effective, there's a product called INTAL SPINCAPS, which are Cromolyn based capsules that go into a inhaler device. We can just open one capsule everynight, mix it with Emu oil & Propylene Glycol & voila  :Wink:

----------


## thechamp

Desmond all this sounds to good to be true if we only knew years ago about this dam it lol!

----------


## garethbale

Hi Desmond

Can I just take zyrtec tablets orally then?  It seems much easier than making a topical and I don't want to mix up everything into a solution.  But if the topical is the best method I will try that. Thanks

----------


## rdawg

> Hi Desmond
> 
> Can I just take zyrtec tablets orally then?  It seems much easier than making a topical and I don't want to mix up everything into a solution.  But if the topical is the best method I will try that. Thanks


 Injesting it orally gives you more risk of side effects. I believe it gives the same benefit but less side effects if you use it topically.

EDIT: and On a side note I love how we're all becoming researchers right now. Screw the FDA trials!!(sarcasm kinda, I know they're for safety but still, 3-5 years is a long wait for hairloss!).

----------


## thechamp

Well five weeks till, I go on holiday thinking I have plenty if hair but if I start this treatment will I loose alot of hair or will I be able to keep it there's no gaurentee

----------


## Pate

> Hi Desmond
> 
> Can I just take zyrtec tablets orally then?  It seems much easier than making a topical and I don't want to mix up everything into a solution.  But if the topical is the best method I will try that. Thanks


 I think the issue with taking them orally is the dose. If you apply 10mg topically you will get a much higher dose to the scalp than if you take it orally where it will diffuse throughout your entire body.

You'd have to take a shed load of pills to get the same concentration in your scalp which would have systemic effects. So I think topical is the way to go.

One concern I have is we have no idea how much cet will go systemic from topical application. But I guess if you apply 10mg then no more than that can do systemic. Perhaps much less. I have no idea how much of a drug is typically going to go systemic from application to the scalp. I guess it varies widely.

Any thoughts Des?

----------


## thechamp

Quote:
Originally Posted by garethbale  
Hi Desmond

Can I just take zyrtec tablets orally then? It seems much easier than making a topical and I don't want to mix up everything into a solution. But if the topical is the best method I will try that. Thanks

I wanna try the topical but don't want to she'd to much as I'm a Norwood 1 and what's the chance of keeping my hair with this topical or growing it back?

----------


## doke

I do not know if any guys here remember ken aka his rk19 product many years ago contained oral antihistamine plus a vit as well which caused a big internet argument as to a scam and some saying it worked.
And what about hydrocotisone which many say stopped the itch and i think some minoxidil on sale contains like promox.
But this may help with calming the scalp into some regrowth its worth a try and if its cheap then i may give it a go.

----------


## thechamp

And this will be a topical something has to work lol

----------


## doke

hi champ i have just ordered eight 30 10mg tablets of cetirizine and only cost me about six quid i see that you can buy liquid 10mg  capsules of cet but it would be very expensive in benadryl allergy liquid release.

----------


## thechamp

Well done doke :Smile: ,there solid science behind this imagine if this works after all this trx2 bullshit we gave been threw!

----------


## doke

got  enough to last years hahaha

----------


## doke

also bought some distilled water and propylene glycol for the mix.

----------


## thechamp

Where you buy propylene glycol from?

----------


## doke

Hi champ got 200mls which i think will last a fair while at http://www.aromantic.co.uk   i am not sure if this link will work?

----------


## hellouser

> Where you buy propylene glycol from?


 I bought some at my pharmacy. Just straight up asked 'Can I get some PG, about 200ml worth?'

They charged me $3.10.

----------


## Conpecia

Ok guys, without firsthand knowledge of how this stuff is being used by the members of other forums, and without plenty of results to sift through, I'm still maintaining a healthy dose of skepticism.

That being said, I keep hearing more and more good news about Cetirizine. Casperz from *** just updated again with photos documenting regrowth on an area that has been slick bald for TWENTY YEARS. He's got the pics. He reports hundreds of small, terminal black hairs popping up everywhere.

Another user named baldnesssadness just put up a photo of 6 week results. THE GUY'S HAIRLINE IS GROWING BACK. VISIBLY. This user is also on minox I believe, and I'm not sure how long he's been taking that. But Pate mentioned that a minox/cet combo might be necessary and perhaps he's right. 

A third user, Hairoutthewazoo, just reported one month results of seeing lots of vellus hairs cropping up after an intense shed.

.......I'm not really sure how to react to all of this. Part of me is absolutely blown away by some of these photos, and of course there's that little voice in my head saying "this could be something huge." But I've been around the block a few times with these new treatments and the last thing I want to do is hype everybody up just to find out that, for whatever reason, it doesn't work out as far as regrowth or prevention. So here's my take on it: It's still TOO EARLY to make a judgment on the real efficacy of this treatment. We're getting excellent reports and seeing some very positive photographs, but we have to be patient before we can start popping the champagne. 

My main fear is that I undergo a severe shed and don't regain anything worthwhile; that would crush me. I'm sticking to my guns and waiting at least until December to get going with Cet. Hopefully more good news will be coming our way from these other guys. 

A lot of people wrap things up with "stay positive." My advice is to stay skeptical; let's manage expectations for a few more months and if we keep getting good news, then we can let our guards down a bit.

----------


## hellouser

> That being said, I keep hearing more and more good news about Cetirizine. Casperz from *** just updated again with photos documenting regrowth on an area that has been slick bald for TWENTY YEARS. He's got the pics. He reports hundreds of small, terminal black hairs popping up everywhere.
> 
> Another user named baldnesssadness just put up a photo of 6 week results. THE GUY'S HAIRLINE IS GROWING BACK. VISIBLY. This user is also on minox I believe, and I'm not sure how long he's been taking that. But Pate mentioned that a minox/cet combo might be necessary and perhaps he's right.


 Can you post links or photos of these guys results? I'm particularly interested in the hairline results, that sounds... promising.  :Smile:

----------


## Conpecia

> Can you post links or photos of these guys results? I'm particularly interested in the hairline results, that sounds... promising.


 http://www.*****************/interact...chmentid=18765

this is baldnesssadness at 2 months of cet. he is also on minox.

----------


## Pate

I'm going to start it this weekend.

What is the point of adding PG? I've never been able to get a straight answer.

I'm still finalising my method but for now I will be looking to apply about 10mg/day in distilled water only. I gave up minox about six months ago (and didn't notice any difference, which I guess shows what minox was achieving - f--k all!). The rest of my regimen is 1mg fin per day and 2% keto twice or three times a week.

Conpecia, I am worried about the shed too, which is why I'm going to start on the slick bald areas of my temple and a small depth along the hairline. If there is no major shed, or if there is a shed that grows back noticeably stronger, I will gradually extend it along the rest of my thinning areas.

----------


## The Alchemist

> I'm going to start it this weekend.
> 
> What is the point of adding PG? I've never been able to get a straight answer.
> 
> I'm still finalising my method but for now I will be looking to apply about 10mg/day in distilled water only. I gave up minox about six months ago (and didn't notice any difference, which I guess shows what minox was achieving - f--k all!). The rest of my regimen is 1mg fin per day and 2&#37; keto twice or three times a week.
> 
> Conpecia, I am worried about the shed too, which is why I'm going to start on the slick bald areas of my temple and a small depth along the hairline. If there is no major shed, or if there is a shed that grows back noticeably stronger, I will gradually extend it along the rest of my thinning areas.


 PG is added to help with solubility. Because this compound is so water soluble, it may not be necessary.  I added to mimic other topicals i've looked at.  Ethanol is added too - will help with absorption.

Tomorrow will be my 2 week mark on Cet.  I've had some shedding during the first few weeks, for sure.  But, other than that, no side effects to speak of.  Can't say for sure, but, i think some of the vellus hairs i have near my hairline are getting much longer - almost as long as a normal hair.  Not sure if they were like that before, but, i can't recall seeing anything like it.   No sign of anything else - but it's very early on for me.

----------


## Conpecia

> I'm going to start it this weekend.
> 
> What is the point of adding PG? I've never been able to get a straight answer.
> 
> I'm still finalising my method but for now I will be looking to apply about 10mg/day in distilled water only. I gave up minox about six months ago (and didn't notice any difference, which I guess shows what minox was achieving - f--k all!). The rest of my regimen is 1mg fin per day and 2% keto twice or three times a week.
> 
> Conpecia, I am worried about the shed too, which is why I'm going to start on the slick bald areas of my temple and a small depth along the hairline. If there is no major shed, or if there is a shed that grows back noticeably stronger, I will gradually extend it along the rest of my thinning areas.


 I'm not sure about PG's function, but good to hear that you are going to give this a shot. I may follow your lead and just apply it to slick bald areas on the hairline first, gradually moving back if I get results. Please keep us updated, and good luck with this.

----------


## mjolnir

Looking at this perhaps a bit more pragmatically, do we know anything at all about how safe this stuff is in high concentrations when applied topically? As someone pointed out earlier, we do have the FDA for a reason.

----------


## Pate

No, we don't. However we do know it is a very safe drug and we are not applying it in any higher dose than people who take it orally - 10mg. I read up on the safety profile on Pfizer's website and it has proven safe in animals up to many times the standard dose. There were also reports of overdose in humans with no major effects, including an infant who took a staggering 180mg (equivalent to about 1300mg to an adult male!!!) with no major effects.

Finally, I consider this at this stage a short term trial of about 6 months. So I am not worried about long term chronic use effects.

But it is something everybody who is considering this absolutely MUST keep in mind. This usage of Zyrtec HAS NOT been confirmed as safe by regulatory bodies and we assume a certain degree of risk.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> No, we don't. However we do know it is a very safe drug and we are not applying it in any higher dose than people who take it orally - 10mg. I read up on the safety profile on Pfizer's website and it has proven safe in animals up to many times the standard dose. There were also reports of overdose in humans with no major effects, including an infant who took a staggering 180mg (equivalent to about 1300mg to an adult male!!!) with no major effects.
> 
> Finally, I consider this at this stage a short term trial of about 6 months. So I am not worried about long term chronic use effects.
> 
> But it is something everybody who is considering this absolutely MUST keep in mind. This usage of Zyrtec HAS NOT been confirmed as safe by regulatory bodies and we assume a certain degree of risk.


 So what happens if this ends up working?

----------


## clandestine

> So what happens if this ends up working?


 Uh, then it ends up working? Hair loss cured, etc, etc.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Uh, then it ends up working? Hair loss cured, etc, etc.


 Will be hilarious if the cure for hairloss is found by forumers.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Looking at this perhaps a bit more pragmatically, do we know anything at all about how safe this stuff is in high concentrations when applied topically? As someone pointed out earlier, we do have the FDA for a reason.


 Well tbh I have a suspicion the FDA will intervene if say this stuff ends up working. Like they did with Dr Lee.

----------


## Pate

> So what happens if this ends up working?


 Depending on how well it works, then I will need to make a decision about whether to take the additional risk of chronic longtime use.

But let's not count our chickens just yet.

It would need to be at as good as what those others are seeing to convince me to keep using it. Moderate regrowth isn't worth it for me. But I will say one thing. This is easily the best regrowth I have ever seen on slick bald temples. If these initial indications prove accurate (massive IF) then it could be huge.

I'm still sceptical. But if I see any regrowth at all it'll still be significant. This is not an ideal PGD2 inhibitor and it's not in an ideal vehicle, so any regrowth will be a big plus for future treatments going the PGD2 route.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Depending on how well it works, then I will need to make a decision about whether to take the additional risk of chronic longtime use.
> 
> But let's not count our chickens just yet.
> 
> It would need to be at as good as what those others are seeing to convince me to keep using it. Moderate regrowth isn't worth it for me. But I will say one thing. This is easily the best regrowth I have ever seen on slick bald temples. If these initial indications prove accurate (massive IF) then it could be huge.
> 
> I'm still sceptical. But if I see any regrowth at all it'll still be significant. This is not an ideal PGD2 inhibitor and it's not in an ideal vehicle, so any regrowth will be a big plus for future treatments going the PGD2 route.


 The only problem with a lot of the results is that :

a) people are using minox.

How can you attribute the results purely to this PGD2 blocker?

We need people who do this to purely use this alone.

and 

b) No proper before and after pics.

Please those people doing this, do take proper before and after pics.

----------


## thechamp

How are they going to stop selling hay fever tablets **** them they can not stop this now

----------


## rdawg

> The only problem with a lot of the results is that :
> 
> a) people are using minox.
> 
> How can you attribute the results purely to this PGD2 blocker?
> 
> We need people who do this to purely use this alone.
> 
> and 
> ...


 I agree with A) however there are some that theorize that you need both Minox and a PGD2 inhibitor to get the full benefits(a halting process+a stimulating process.) And from what I've read, most of these people have already been on minox for more than year, so maybe minox just further helps it?

and b) 100&#37;, can we get some concrete before and after pics? Like conpecia I may consider starting this in about a month if I see some strong early progress with no sides. This stuff is really really cheap(like a 2 month supply will cost me 20 bucks.)

----------


## hellouser

> I agree with A) however there are some that theorize that you need both Minox and a PGD2 inhibitor to get the full benefits(a halting process+a stimulating process.) And from what I've read, most of these people have already been on minox for more than year, so maybe minox just further helps it?
> *
> and b) 100%, can we get some concrete before and after pics? Like conpecia I may consider starting this in about a month if I see some strong early progress with no sides. This stuff is really really cheap(like a 2 month supply will cost me 20 bucks.)*


 Remember the rule though:

Same camera. Same location. Same lighting. Same focal length. Same aperture. Same ISO setting. Same shutter speed. Same distance from camera to hair.

Otherwise, the photos aren't going to be as accurate.

----------


## thechamp

At least this is going to be a great addtion to treatments we already have!!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I agree with A) however there are some that theorize that you need both Minox and a PGD2 inhibitor to get the full benefits(a halting process+a stimulating process.) And from what I've read, most of these people have already been on minox for more than year, so maybe minox just further helps it?
> 
> and b) 100%, can we get some concrete before and after pics? Like conpecia I may consider starting this in about a month if I see some strong early progress with no sides. This stuff is really really cheap(like a 2 month supply will cost me 20 bucks.)


 The problem with a) How do we know the minox results were going to kick in anyway after a year?

----------


## Pate

> The problem with a) How do we know the minox results were going to kick in anyway after a year?


 Extremely unlikely that you'd see no results from minox for a whole year and then suddenly see terminal hairs growing in at the hairline.

So relax! Current treatments almost NEVER grow terminal hairs at the hairline. Certainly not in slick bald temples. If someone has been on minox for a year, or isn't on minox at all, and then they apply cet and suddenly terminal hairs start growing, we can safely assume it's the cet that is causing it.

The minox may be assisting, but that's what trials like mine will work out, because I'm not using minox. 

I will be combining it with fin, but I've been on fin for four years now. 

I will take photos if I see cosmetic growth. I'm honestly not really expecting to, because I've seen so many of these products get their 15 minutes of fame and then fade into obscurity. But you never know. 

At any rate, I'm buying my Zyrtec and my demineralised water on Saturday. I'll mix it up and let it sit overnight and my first application will be on Sunday. My girlfriend (whom I just moved in with) is away all week for work so I won't have to answer any awkward questions about why I'm grinding up an entire 70-pack of antihistamine pills with mortar and pestle.  :Big Grin:

----------


## TravisB

Sorry guys, but I'm very skeptical about this.

This isn't the first time we had such "breakthrough" on the forums.

Until many people show legit photo evidence that it's working (without Minox and Fin!!!!),  I call bullshit

----------


## thechamp

How the hell can the FDA stop hayfever tablets if they work no way!!

----------


## JDW

Is this being tested by anybody orally or just topically?

----------


## eqvist

Is it someone who is trying this with "big 3"? To me it would be a success if it all together could save the shit I have left.

----------


## thechamp

Be a good edition to the big 3, I'm going to just chuck Zyrtec tablets in my minoxidil but I'm scared of the shed since I'm a Norwood one getting thinner!?

----------


## rdawg

> Is it someone who is trying this with "big 3"? To me it would be a success if it all together could save the shit I have left.


 If I see success I will try it with the big 3.

In theory it's probably the most beneficial with the big 3. Fin further halting loss/hold on to what you have, Minoxidil stimulating growth and then this inhibiting the PGD2

----------


## thechamp

Like if your a Norwood 1 what will you be when you start Zyrtec like Norwood 2?

----------


## garethbale

Where can I get the ingredients (other than Zyrtec) for this.  I am in the UK but have no idea where to get them or how to make it.

I will try it without any other topical

----------


## Pate

Demineralised water you can get from supermarkets in the ironing supplies section. I have found online suppliers of ethanol and propylene glycol in Australia, I'm sure you could find them in the UK too.

----------


## Zoidberg

Got mine from Tesco, currently 80p for 14 ownbrand Cetrizine Hayfever tabs - nice!
Added them to some distilled water from above shop, left them in a yoghurt pot overnight, used an old astressin-b dropper to take off the top fraction and stored it in the old astressin-b container. 
I've used 25 tabs in 50ml, which is less than many other people, but I'm going to add another 14 in a few days time and then another 14 a few days after that.
I'm also taking half a tab orally per day.
Scalp redness has reduced noticeably for me over the last week.

----------


## thechamp

Does any body know how bad the shed is on this treatment?

----------


## rdawg

> Does any body know how bad the shed is on this treatment?


 Noones deep enough to know and if it's similar to other products it will vary from person to person.

But In general (other products i.e fin) i've never seen a person have a bald spot from a shed, you may thin out a bit but it's usually only for a few weeks.

----------


## goingquick

I'm pretty skeptical about this doing anything, but it's so cheap the only thing that's been keeping me from trying it is inconvenience.  Some questions:

- Is it necessary to apply the cetrizine topical twice a day?

- Is the ppg really necessary?  I used to use liquid minoxidil and found it irritating, I think because of the ppg (I use minox foam now with no irritating side effects).  

- I'm thinking about dropping my night time foam application, and replacing it with a watered down minoxidil (5&#37; minox watered down to 2.5%) and putting cetirizine in that--would that work?  

Thanks for any help!

----------


## Kirby_

My thoughts...
* I think at this point it's quite likely that there's a synergistic effect between topical cetirizine and minox, with the later really required. However, that's nowhere near proven.
* if nothing else this shows the huge potential for topical PGD2 blocking. Remember that cetirizine is only weak for that function _and_ isn't even a CRTH2 antagonist!
* bizarrely, there's more before/after photos of topical cetirizine use than there are for a whole host of experimental treatments, or over-the-counter stuff like Neogenic. (Actually the fact that there are _any_ before/after user photographs immediately makes this remarkable! With so many experimental treatments there's literally none, at least on mainstream forums.)

----------


## thechamp

Why don't we make a shampoo out of Zyrtec too it couldn't Hert?

----------


## Pate

> I'm pretty skeptical about this doing anything, but it's so cheap the only thing that's been keeping me from trying it is inconvenience.  Some questions:
> 
> - Is it necessary to apply the cetrizine topical twice a day?
> 
> - Is the ppg really necessary?  I used to use liquid minoxidil and found it irritating, I think because of the ppg (I use minox foam now with no irritating side effects).  
> 
> - I'm thinking about dropping my night time foam application, and replacing it with a watered down minoxidil (5% minox watered down to 2.5%) and putting cetirizine in that--would that work?  
> 
> Thanks for any help!


 Nobody knows yet. We don't know whether once or twice a day is better, we don't know whether PG is really necessary (though I suspect not since cetirizine is so water-soluble), we don't know what dose we need, and we don't know whether it can be put into minox or not.

Most guys seem to be applying the equivalent of 10mg once a day, some are 10mg twice a day. Some are using minox, some aren't.

So assuming you're happy to take the risks from trying a product that hasn't been proven safe in this application, jump on board and give it a go. You can test the path of putting cet in minox - just make sure you extract the cet in demineralised water before you combine it, if you just crush up pills and put them in minox you will get all the residue from the inerts in there.

----------


## casperz

Hey guys, I'm casperz from the *** forum that started the thread 
on Cetrizine. One of the users here asked me to update here as well. 

I've read through the last few pages and I wanted to respond to a few things.

Speaking for myself this is absolutely not a placebo affect. I've been on forums for many
years and I've tried a lot of things to regrow hair. I had some really good results with what I call
KSR. Basically it was the big3 with everything else known to grow hair all at the same time. I
reached the pinnacle around 2009 and since then have lost enthusiasm and lost most of the
gains. This is all documented with pictures on ***.  The set of four pictures was where I started
in 2007 and the last one is Mar 2009. The bigger picture is from Sept of this year when I
started Cet. I had stopped all other treatments except Minox in Feb of 2012. Naturally without
Finasteride blocking DHT I regressed quite a bit. I'm still not where i was in 2007 but it's
pretty bad.  

So with all that said I know this is not placebo effect. This is real regrowth in areas
that have been slick for years. I'm as skeptical as any of you and I'm telling everyone
to hold off on their excitement but with the results I'm seeing in my scalp and others Cetrizine
seems to be very effective. 

As far as I know this was started by some German guys and they are about three months
ahead of me. I would guess that at the 6 month mark we will have some good results to
show. The German guys get there around Jan and I get there March 1 2013. 

The last close up I'll post today is from this week. These hairs are near where my hairline was
in my teens and has been bald for at least 20 years. If you look closely you can see where the
ends of the hair are vellus and have gotten darker and thicker at the base. This is happening 
all over my scalp. 

My hope is that this will work well until the real PGD2 treatments are released. 

I'll update as things change and I'll be glad to answer any questions.

Summary of pics:
Picture 1: 2007-2009 (Started treatments for first time in 2007)
Picture 2: Start of Cet Sept 2012 (no fin since Feb 2012)
Picture 3: closeup of new hairs
Picture 4: 60 days on Cet. (I'll take better overall pics at 90 days, around Dec 1st).

----------


## Pate

> My thoughts...
> * I think at this point it's quite likely that there's a synergistic effect between topical cetirizine and minox, with the later really required. However, that's nowhere near proven.
> * if nothing else this shows the huge potential for topical PGD2 blocking. Remember that cetirizine is only weak for that function _and_ isn't even a CRTH2 antagonist!
> * bizarrely, there's more before/after photos of topical cetirizine use than there are for a whole host of experimental treatments, or over-the-counter stuff like Neogenic. (Actually the fact that there are _any_ before/after user photographs immediately makes this remarkable! With so many experimental treatments there's literally none, at least on mainstream forums.)


 1. I agree, and the interesting thing is that bimatoprost should be a much more potent PGE stimulator so the cet/bim combination could be even more effective than cet/minox.

2. Exactly. If these results we're seeing on the other forums can be repeated, the dedicated PGD2 inhibitors should blow them away.

3. Yep, and not only more photos but pretty unambiguous photos. You can't claim it's a case of different lighting or angles. This stuff really does appear to have regrown terminal hair at the hairline - the holy grail of hair loss science. The guys who have been urging caution are 100% right of course, and we have no conclusive evidence other than a handful of photos, but it's definitely worth investigating.

----------


## Pate

Hi casperz, thanks very much for dropping by - it is much appreciated!

I will be starting cet tomorrow. Could you tell us how you prepared your cet, and how much you are applying?

----------


## casperz

> Hi casperz, thanks very much for dropping by - it is much appreciated!
> 
> I will be starting cet tomorrow. Could you tell us how you prepared your cet, and how much you are applying?


 Glad to do it, I'm as excited about this as everyone else. 

Everyone seems to be mixing it a little different. I was in such a rush to start after seeing some of the German guys pictures that I just crushed the Cet and added the power and tap water to an old minox bottle. I used 600mg of Cet (60 10mg tablets) to 60ml of tap water. I don't even filter out
the fillers, I just draw off the top. It starts to make your hair sticky the closer you get to the bottom of the bottle. I have gone through 2 bottles mixed like that and I'm about to make my third this weekend. This time I plan to use 151 or 190 proof grain alcohol(everclear), PG and water. I'm also planning on doubling the Cet to 1.2g to 60ml of liquid.  If you want to use what I've been using for the past 2 months use Cet and water. I apply 1ml morning and night and follow up with minox after it dries a little.

I should have mentioned this in my original post. Expect to have the worst shed of your life when you start Cet. Mine lasted about 3 weeks but since then it has completely stopped. I've been used to seeing 10 to 20 hairs per day in my sink since about February when I stopped Fin. I saw many more than that the first 3 weeks of Cet but since then it's rare that I see even a single hair.

----------


## casperz

> 1. I agree, and the interesting thing is that bimatoprost should be a much more potent PGE stimulator so the cet/bim combination could be even more effective than cet/minox.


 Some of the German forum guys are trying that combination. No results yet.

----------


## Pate

> Glad to do it, I'm as excited about this as everyone else. 
> 
> Everyone seems to be mixing it a little different. I was in such a rush to start after seeing some of the German guys pictures that I just crushed the Cet and added the power and tap water to an old minox bottle. I used 600mg of Cet (60 10mg tablets) to 60ml of tap water. I don't even filter out
> the fillers, I just draw off the top. It starts to make your hair sticky the closer you get to the bottom of the bottle. I have gone through 2 bottles mixed like that and I'm about to make my third this weekend. This time I plan to use 151 or 190 proof grain alcohol(everclear), PG and water. I'm also planning on doubling the Cet to 1.2g to 60ml of liquid.  If you want to use what I've been using for the past 2 months use Cet and water. I apply 1ml morning and night and follow up with minox after it dries a little.
> 
> I should have mentioned this in my original post. Expect to have the worst shed of your life when you start Cet. Mine lasted about 3 weeks but since then it has completely stopped. I've been used to seeing 10 to 20 hairs per day in my sink since about February when I stopped Fin. I saw many more than that the first 3 weeks of Cet but since then it's rare that I see even a single hair.


 Okay so you're effectively using 20mg/day currently and about to upgrade to 40?

----------


## thechamp

There must be a more powerfull over the counter blocker than cet which would work even better ?

----------


## Pate

Okay, so this is the official launch of Pate's Phase II cetirizine trial. Pate skipped pre-clinical and Phase I because damn the torpedos, that's just how Pate rolls!

But seriously - I am extremely confident from reading up on cetirizine's safety profile that at the sort of doses we are using here, to use it topically for a few months is well and truly safe. I will report any systemic effects or sides I encounter.

The formulation is:

62 x 10mg Zyrtec tablets crushed up in 60mL of demineralised water (the 2 extras are to account for losses)

I will apply 0.5mL once daily to the right temple only, which is comletely bald in a NW3 pattern (the rest of my hair is thinning heavily in a NW6 pattern). The left temple will be control (unless I start sprouting new terminal hairs in which case I'll even it out so I don't look funny) This is 5mg total cet per day - even if the absorption systemically is 100%, it's still equivalent to only half a Zyrtec per day.

I will update here every month. If I see growth I will take photographs. If not I won't bother. If I see no growth whatsoever by 3 months, I will consider upping the dose and/or frequency and/or adding minox.

This is a weaker dose than casperz is using and there is no minox, so if it doesn't work, don't write off cet or PGD2 inhibitors entirely. I just want to start with a low dose.

I am also taking 1mg fin per day and using 2% Nizoral 2-3 times per week.

So here goes. Wish me luck!

----------


## Conpecia

good luck, pate! i'm gonna be right behind you in a couple weeks. 

one favor, please update more frequently if you experience significant changes early, i.e. shedding absolutely stops, tons of vellus hairs start getting longer, or lots of hairs start turning terminal. you don't have to post pics, just a line or two would be great to let us know you're seeing comparable results to casperz and the others early on. i'd really appreciate that, and i'm sure others would too!

----------


## casperz

> Okay so you're effectively using 20mg/day currently and about to upgrade to 40?


 Correct. If my calculations are correct I'll be going from a 1% solution to 2%. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. 

I used .6g / 60ml = .01% and 1.2g / 60ml = .02%?

----------


## rdawg

> Okay, so this is the official launch of Pate's Phase II cetirizine trial. Pate skipped pre-clinical and Phase I because damn the torpedos, that's just how Pate rolls!
> 
> But seriously - I am extremely confident from reading up on cetirizine's safety profile that at the sort of doses we are using here, to use it topically for a few months is well and truly safe. I will report any systemic effects or sides I encounter.
> 
> The formulation is:
> 
> 62 x 10mg Zyrtec tablets crushed up in 60mL of demineralised water (the 2 extras are to account for losses)
> 
> I will apply 0.5mL once daily to the right temple only, which is comletely bald in a NW3 pattern (the rest of my hair is thinning heavily in a NW6 pattern). The left temple will be control (unless I start sprouting new terminal hairs in which case I'll even it out so I don't look funny) This is 5mg total cet per day - even if the absorption systemically is 100%, it's still equivalent to only half a Zyrtec per day.
> ...


 Good luck pate, keep consistent with pictures by the way please, try to maintain same lighting and angle.

Also how long have you been on fin for? if you're only a couple months in the fin may affect the results.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Some dude at Hairsite is also on a PGD2 blocker and claims that his hair also stopped shedding. He says no other medication ever did until PGD2. Does anyone know if he is using CET?? You Guys should check it out!

----------


## Pate

> Good luck pate, keep consistent with pictures by the way please, try to maintain same lighting and angle.
> 
> Also how long have you been on fin for? if you're only a couple months in the fin may affect the results.


 I'll do my best with the photos but I don't have the equipment that that German guy has so keep that in mind. I shave my head to a #1 so there are no worries about lighting or angle or combover effects, and if this stuff regrows terminal hair you will be able to see it on my photos. If the photos aren't good enough to clearly show it, I will take that to mean the regrowth is cosmetically insignificant and the trial has been a failure!

I've been on fin for over four years now. It grew a total of 3 terminal hairs in my entire temples, I can see them about 1cm in from my hairline. I don't anticipate it will have any effect, unless there is some synergistic effect where the PGD2 inhibition is more effective because less DHT is in the follicle - which is possible I guess.

Just upgraded to 2% keto a month ago but before that I was using 1% so I don't think that will have much effect either.

Anyway, thanks for the support guys. Now we play the waiting game.....

----------


## Pate

> one favor, please update more frequently if you experience significant changes early, i.e. shedding absolutely stops, tons of vellus hairs start getting longer, or lots of hairs start turning terminal. you don't have to post pics, just a line or two would be great to let us know you're seeing comparable results to casperz and the others early on. i'd really appreciate that, and i'm sure others would too!


 Will do. Keep in mind I'm only applying it to the bald spot and maybe 1cm along the hairline at this stage so I don't expect a massive shed, but I will report anything I observe that I think is noteworthy.

It's been about 9 hours since my first application and I haven't noticed anything yet in terms of sides. Unsurprisingly since I only applied 10mg, but there was no reaction on the skin and no systemic effects that I can tell, I didn't get drowsy or anything. I actually applied this first dose to my entire scalp to test for sides, now I'll go back to just the temple.




> Correct. If my calculations are correct I'll be going from a 1% solution to 2%. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. 
> 
> I used .6g / 60ml = .01% and 1.2g / 60ml = .02%?


 Correct, on a weight/weight basis. 600mg in 60mL is 1%, 1200mg will be 2%.

I am using 1% too but will only be applying 0.5mL once per day because I'm only treating one temple at this stage.

----------


## Gjm127

> Will do. Keep in mind I'm only applying it to the bald spot and maybe 1cm along the hairline at this stage so I don't expect a massive shed, but I will report anything I observe that I think is noteworthy.
> 
> It's been about 9 hours since my first application and I haven't noticed anything yet in terms of sides. Unsurprisingly since I only applied 10mg, but there was no reaction on the skin and no systemic effects that I can tell, I didn't get drowsy or anything. I actually applied this first dose to my entire scalp to test for sides, now I'll go back to just the temple.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct, on a weight/weight basis. 600mg in 60mL is 1%, 1200mg will be 2%.
> 
> I am using 1% too but will only be applying 0.5mL once per day because I'm only treating one temple at this stage.


 Excellent stuff Pate, I'm probably going to jump on your bandwagon some day soon with the temple application only.

----------


## clandestine

casperz, thank you for dropping by btt and giving us an update. Very much appreciated.

----------


## hellouser

> There must be a more powerfull over the counter blocker than cet which would work even better ?


 If there is, I wanna know what to buy.

----------


## The Alchemist

> Will do. Keep in mind I'm only applying it to the bald spot and maybe 1cm along the hairline at this stage so I don't expect a massive shed, but I will report anything I observe that I think is noteworthy.
> 
> It's been about 9 hours since my first application and I haven't noticed anything yet in terms of sides. Unsurprisingly since I only applied 10mg, but there was no reaction on the skin and no systemic effects that I can tell, I didn't get drowsy or anything. I actually applied this first dose to my entire scalp to test for sides, now I'll go back to just the temple.


 Good luck, dude.  I'm into my 3rd week on the stuff and haven't detected any side effects what so ever; and i'm prone to them.  Well, as long as you don't count shedding, which i experienced but am still not a 100% sure it was due to the meds.  Also haven't noticed any growth at all.  my recessed corners are still bare as a babies ass, not a vellus in sight.  Would love to see something soon, however small, just to let me know if it truly is working or i'm wasting time.

----------


## Pate

Around the one month stage is where I'd expect to start seeing the first action so hopefully you'll see something soon.

Are your temples really completely hairless? My temples are still covered in baby vellus hairs that only grow about 1mm long, then near the hairline they get a bit longer but are still totally unpigmented. So my temples LOOK slick bald but in reality they do have hairs.

----------


## thechamp

clarayntine loratadine reduces pgd2 levels more who's gonna have the balls to try it ?

----------


## The Alchemist

> Around the one month stage is where I'd expect to start seeing the first action so hopefully you'll see something soon.
> 
> Are your temples really completely hairless? My temples are still covered in baby vellus hairs that only grow about 1mm long, then near the hairline they get a bit longer but are still totally unpigmented. So my temples LOOK slick bald but in reality they do have hairs.


 My temples are hairless, so if this grows any hair, i'll be able to detect it rather easily.  Lets hope that happens

----------


## Pate

> My temples are hairless, so if this grows any hair, i'll be able to detect it rather easily.  Lets hope that happens


 I guess that probably means your hairs are ending their anagen phase before they've even broken the skin, whereas mine are JUST breaking the skin before they cycle.

In that case I would probably expect yours to take a bit longer because they may have to cycle more than once before they break the skin... you might have to wait a while more.

Alternatively it might just not work for either of us... I went back over the German forums and several guys there have posted photos that it'd be hard to argue are showing any growth whatsoever. At least like you said when we're applying it to the temples it'll be easier to see.

----------


## Dazza

> clarayntine loratadine reduces pgd2 levels more who's gonna have the balls to try it ?


 why dont you try it out...

is there a link to the german forums?

----------


## thechamp

I'm Norwood one not shedding trying topical fin with spectral dnc snd using nizoral I shed maybe 2 hairs a day so ill wait too see results from others!

----------


## JDW

> Some dude at Hairsite is also on a PGD2 blocker and claims that his hair also stopped shedding. He says no other medication ever did until PGD2. Does anyone know if he is using CET?? You Guys should check it out!


 Can you be more specific? what is he on exactly?

Also, well done to those trying this out, look forrward to hearing the updates

----------


## The Alchemist

> I guess that probably means your hairs are ending their anagen phase before they've even broken the skin, whereas mine are JUST breaking the skin before they cycle.
> 
> In that case I would probably expect yours to take a bit longer because they may have to cycle more than once before they break the skin... you might have to wait a while more.
> 
> Alternatively it might just not work for either of us... I went back over the German forums and several guys there have posted photos that it'd be hard to argue are showing any growth whatsoever. At least like you said when we're applying it to the temples it'll be easier to see.


 
That's a good thought - maybe i'll need to wait for the hairs to cycle a couple times before they break out.  I'm planning to stick out this treatment at least 4 - 6 months.  If i'm not seeing anything by that point, then it's probably not going to happen for me.

----------


## goingquick

Ordered some cetirizine from Amazon and it should arrive in a few days.  I'll try and get my topical made and baseline pictures taken before the end of the week.

----------


## Pate

First update for those considering their topical formulation - I'm finding, perhaps unsurprisingly, that there is a limit to how much of my cet-water formulation I can apply, particularly to my temples where this is no hair to hold it in place. It tends to want to run down my face.

With this is mind I would recommend anyone looking to apply this to temples or another small area do one of two things. Either increase the concentration so you don't need to apply as much liquid (recommend 2&#37; instead of 1%) or mix it with a 50-50 mix of water and ethanol to help with evaporation.

If you are applying it to the whole scalp then you can probably get away with 1% in just water.

I'm also having a little bit of trouble with residual sediment in the liquid. It's the colour of milk and I can feel the residue on my scalp, though it is bearable. I'm considering trying to filter it through filter paper if I can find some.

Other than that, nothing to report. No sides noticed.

----------


## casperz

> First update for those considering their topical formulation - I'm finding, perhaps unsurprisingly, that there is a limit to how much of my cet-water formulation I can apply, particularly to my temples where this is no hair to hold it in place. It tends to want to run down my face.
> 
> With this is mind I would recommend anyone looking to apply this to temples or another small area do one of two things. Either increase the concentration so you don't need to apply as much liquid (recommend 2% instead of 1%) or mix it with a 50-50 mix of water and ethanol to help with evaporation.
> 
> If you are applying it to the whole scalp then you can probably get away with 1% in just water.
> 
> I'm also having a little bit of trouble with residual sediment in the liquid. It's the colour of milk and I can feel the residue on my scalp, though it is bearable. I'm considering trying to filter it through filter paper if I can find some.
> 
> Other than that, nothing to report. No sides noticed.


 I think filtering out the fillers will help a lot, they seem to make my hair sticky. I used
a funnel with a cotton ball for the first time this weekend and it worked well. Let it
stand overnight and all the liquid will filter through.

I also use a finger to massage the Cet in because with water only it does tend to run off 
the scalp as you say.

----------


## Pate

I just purchased a pack of 100 lab filter papers and a funnel for a total cost of $7. I'll give it a go and let everyone know how it works.

----------


## goingquick

> I just purchased a pack of 100 lab filter papers and a funnel for a total cost of $7. I'll give it a go and let everyone know how it works.


 Could I just run it through a coffee filter?

----------


## doke

> Ordered some cetirizine from Amazon and it should arrive in a few days.  I'll try and get my topical made and baseline pictures taken before the end of the week.


 Hi i ordered mine from amazon last week so should get mine today or tomorrow hopefully.

----------


## doke

Why not disolve the cet in alcohol first as i was told this on mixing ru at hairlosshelp as it disolves better,although i do have a funnel with filter if i want.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Can you be more specific? what is he on exactly?
> 
> Also, well done to those trying this out, look forrward to hearing the updates


 Best thing you can do is check it out for yourself at Haisite. I think his name is Alecthebaldone. He has a thread with his pics. He bought a PGD2 blocker online and says it stopped his shedding. Check em out.

----------


## doke

Has anyone ticked the box at mpbt on wanting to buy pgds blocker and i wanted to say i got 8 boxes of cet 30mg at amazon and have just this min received my order. :Smile:

----------


## doke

For anyone new to this thread i will post the mixing process that the german that had regrowth used i will use block letters.
TOPICAL CERTIRIZINE 1.CRUSH & GRIND 33 TABS.
2 :Big Grin: ISSOVLE POWDER IN 50MLS DISTILLED WATER.
3:LET DISSOVLE FOR 24 HRS OR MORE.
4:SOLIDS AT BOTTOM SEPERATE LIQUID.
5:ADD 30MLS ALCOHOL.
6: MIX IN 20MLS OF PROPYLENE GLYCOL.
7: SHAKE WELL AND BEFORE EVERY USE.
Note as i have said above you could see if instead of using 50mls distilled water use the 30mls alcohol instead and then add the 50mls of distilled water after 24 hrs as i have not mixed mine yet im not sure if it will dissolve completely in the alcohol but as said many that have mixed powders say it should completely dissolve i am hoping it will. :Confused:

----------


## Pate

> Could I just run it through a coffee filter?


 Shouldn't be a problem to run it through a coffee filter, but I was reading that some coffee filters are bleached, and I wasn't sure what the bleach would do to it, so I just ordered some laboratory-grade filter papers. 


doke, you don't need to dissolve cet in alcohol, in fact it is more soluble in water than it is in alcohol. So you're actually better off dissolving it in water. RU is probably different and is more soluble in alcohol than water.

----------


## Cob984

Just added 1 dose of 120-150 sp extract back to my regimen again,

On the msm.vitc front with all due respect to gutted i doubt it does anything to stop mpb, it makes your hair grow a lot faster but does nothing to actually preventing mpb from my experience so far, about 5 weeks in.

----------


## doke

> Shouldn't be a problem to run it through a coffee filter, but I was reading that some coffee filters are bleached, and I wasn't sure what the bleach would do to it, so I just ordered some laboratory-grade filter papers. 
> 
> 
> doke, you don't need to dissolve cet in alcohol, in fact it is more soluble in water than it is in alcohol. So you're actually better off dissolving it in water. RU is probably different and is more soluble in alcohol than water.


 thanks for the info bro. how many mls a day

----------


## doke

Just a note to say i crushed my nuts made my eyes water haha no i crushed my cet tab with portal and bessal not sure if i spelt that right anyway i added to 50mls distilled water and gave it a good shake now i will leave for 24hrs.
Its gone a milky shade by the way.

----------


## eqvist

Is it someone who mixing it with minox? If so how do you mixing it?

----------


## Pate

> thanks for the info bro. how many mls a day


 Depends on the area you are treating. I am currently applying 0.5mL twice a day which in 1% solution is 10mg per day.

----------


## doke

I must have done a good job of crushing the tabs as this morning i filtered it and there was no bits all disovled well and ready now to use.
Are you going to apply minox if you use first.

----------


## doke

Why mixing the cet i have made a new one week supply of ru lotion to you tube instructions so lets kick some arse and see if this helps.

----------


## clandestine

> Why mixing the cet i have made a new one week supply of ru lotion to you tube instructions so lets kick some arse and see if this helps.


 Doke; can you post the YouTube instructions video you used to create the RU solution?

----------


## thechamp

The last 4 weeks I have been using topical fin, with spectral dnc I know this is of topic but my hair is undoubtably thicker!

----------


## Jcm800

you've got thick nw1 hair anyway champ. Post recent pics, don't even know why you're on here tbh!

----------


## thechamp

But I'm just sharing  my honest experience

----------


## doke

> Doke; can you post the YouTube instructions video you used to create the RU solution?


 Ill do better i will give you the mixing this is for one weeks use using 4mls a day.
1: 21 MLS OF ALCOHOL EVERCLEAR 100% OR POLISH 99% VODKA I GOT 88% PROOF.
2: 9MLS PRO GLYCOL.
3:750MG RU
AND JUST SHAKE TO MIX THIS 30MLS  i buy the way am using 2mls a day so should last over a week.

----------


## Conpecia

I'm thinking about starting a regimen centered around this and minox 2%, all at the hair line. Something about using this on its own just doesn't seem like it will work as well. Unfortunately I have gotten sides from minox 5%, but I was putting tons of it all over my scalp. I believe using a half cap of 2% on the hairline alone, coupled with Cet, should provide good results with negligible sides. I'm going to purchase all the gear and do a 6 month trial. I will also be on very small doses of fin (.20 or so 3x week). Hopefully I'll see results similar to casperz and baldnesssadness. I'll let you guys know when I begin and I'll give weekly updates regardless of whether anything happens.

----------


## thechamp

How are the Germans going with this?

----------


## neversaynever

> I'm thinking about starting a regimen centered around this and minox 2%, all at the hair line. Something about using this on its own just doesn't seem like it will work as well. Unfortunately I have gotten sides from minox 5%, but I was putting tons of it all over my scalp. I believe using a half cap of 2% on the hairline alone, coupled with Cet, should provide good results with negligible sides. I'm going to purchase all the gear and do a 6 month trial. I will also be on very small doses of fin (.20 or so 3x week). Hopefully I'll see results similar to casperz and baldnesssadness. I'll let you guys know when I begin and I'll give weekly updates regardless of whether anything happens.


 Which results? with photos? are they posting on this thread?

----------


## thechamp

On hair loss talk ask conpecia!

----------


## Conpecia

> Which results? with photos? are they posting on this thread?


 Casperz and Baldnesssadness (originally from *****************). Yes. Yes.

----------


## goingquick

The suggested vehicle for cetirizine is 50ml water, 30ml alcohol, and 20ml ppg.  Could I lower the alcohol and ppg and still receive the benefits they provide (which I'm assuming is faster drying and better absorption)?

----------


## Pate

> The suggested vehicle for cetirizine is 50ml water, 30ml alcohol, and 20ml ppg.  Could I lower the alcohol and ppg and still receive the benefits they provide (which I'm assuming is faster drying and better absorption)?


 Nobody knows for sure, but check out casperz's results, they were achieved using just cet in tap water.

I'm using just demineralised water, which is ok but I do have issues with evaporation. I've mentioned here before that if you want to use just water, consider a higher concentration so you don't need to apply as much liquid.

----------


## doke

> Ill do better i will give you the mixing this is for one weeks use using 4mls a day.
> 1: 21 MLS OF ALCOHOL EVERCLEAR 100% OR POLISH 99% VODKA I GOT 88% PROOF.
> 2: 9MLS PRO GLYCOL.
> 3:750MG RU
> AND JUST SHAKE TO MIX THIS 30MLS  i buy the way am using 2mls a day so should last over a week.


 When you weigh the ru i am not sure as my digital scales are in grams so i weighed out 0.7.5 grames correct me it thats not 750mgs?

----------


## casperz

> The suggested vehicle for cetirizine is 50ml water, 30ml alcohol, and 20ml ppg.  Could I lower the alcohol and ppg and still receive the benefits they provide (which I'm assuming is faster drying and better absorption)?


 The first two batches I made (60 days worth) were tap water and Cet only 
because I did not want to go to a lot of trouble. 

It seems to be showing results but the alcohol and PG in minox is there for a
reason and that is to increase absorption and I assume it would work the same way
with a Cetrizine mix. The last(current) batch I did I used Cet/alcohol/PG. 

I remember reading a study that showed the more alcohol there is in a mix the higher
absorption up to a point. I think that point was 80&#37; alcohol, the downside was more
scalp irritation with higher alcohol concentrations. Minox I believe is 50% alcohol. The PG
is used to reduce evaporation and not leave the minox (or Cetrizine) sitting on your scalp.
I think the closer you stick to the standard minox mix the closer you will be to maximum effect
with least irritation as I'm sure that was one of the things they worked out in clinical trials
for minox.

----------


## thechamp

Casper so why not crush cet tablets in to minoxidil?

----------


## Conpecia

Just checked the German forums and it looks like they are maxing out at the "lots of small terminal hairs" stage, nobody has made a real breakthrough with regrowth. 

Be that as it may, I'm not hearing anyone say their shedding has gotten any worse, so while this may not be the knockout regrowth solution we hoped it would be, it still might stop further loss cheaply with no side effects, so we're still looking at a promising treatment, and PGD2 still seems like a good theory.  We just need something stronger.

----------


## hellouser

> Just checked the German forums and it looks like they are maxing out at the "lots of small terminal hairs" stage, nobody has made a real breakthrough with regrowth. 
> 
> Be that as it may, I'm not hearing anyone say their shedding has gotten any worse, so while this may not be the knockout regrowth solution we hoped it would be, it still might stop further loss cheaply with no side effects, so we're still looking at a promising treatment, and PGD2 still seems like a good theory.  We just need something stronger.


 I wonder if it would be enough to half further hair loss...

----------


## doke

> Casper so why not crush cet tablets in to minoxidil?


 Hi champ there is nothing to stop you trying that even putting ru into minox which i did with el dut giving me the instructions.

----------


## Conpecia

> I wonder if it would be enough to half further hair loss...


 Time will tell.  If it can thicken what I have and stop further loss until 2015 I'll be completely satisfied. 

I'm about to order all the stuff:
- 500 cetirizine tablets 
- 500ml pg
- 1 gallon of distilled water
- mortar and pestle

Got it all on Amazon. 

I'm wondering if I need the alcohol? Could I just leave it out or does it work in harmony with the pg? Total vehicle noob here.

----------


## doke

> Time will tell.  If it can thicken what I have and stop further loss until 2015 I'll be completely satisfied. 
> 
> I'm about to order all the stuff:
> - 500 cetirizine tablets 
> - 500ml pg
> - 1 gallon of distilled water
> - mortar and pestle
> 
> Got it all on Amazon. 
> ...


 I would not waste money buying a lot like that as it may not work.

----------


## thechamp

I think you should google the strongest over the counter pgd2 blocker you can find and try that

----------


## goingquick

Where can I find the strongest combination of alcohol and water without any other additives?  I went to purchase Ethyl Alcohol at Walgreens and it's got a bunch of other ingredients, including acetone.




> Just checked the German forums and it looks like they are maxing out at the "lots of small terminal hairs" stage, nobody has made a real breakthrough with regrowth.


 I'm still skeptical Cet really does anything at all, but if that's true and Cet can grow small terminal hairs that's more than good enough to turn the "Big 3" into the "Big 4" in my book.

----------


## hellouser

> Just checked the German forums and it looks like they are maxing out at the "lots of small terminal hairs" stage, nobody has made a real breakthrough with regrowth. 
> 
> Be that as it may, I'm not hearing anyone say their shedding has gotten any worse, so while this may not be the knockout regrowth solution we hoped it would be, it still might stop further loss cheaply with no side effects, so we're still looking at a promising treatment, and PGD2 still seems like a good theory.  We just need something stronger.


 The small terminal hairs were grown at slick bald spots, but do you know what they were saying the effects are in areas where there already are velus hairs, ie; around the hairline? What about in areas of thinning? I imagine that if slick bald spots were affected with minimal regrowth, it should do something to existing areas of hair, no?

I'm hoping it adds density... or better yet, touch up the hairline!

----------


## bananana

> The small terminal hairs were grown at slick bald spots, but do you know what they were saying the effects are in areas where there already are velus hairs, ie; around the hairline? What about in areas of thinning? I imagine that if slick bald spots were affected with minimal regrowth, it should do something to existing areas of hair, no?
> 
> I'm hoping it adds density... or better yet, touch up the hairline!


 My thoughts also. I'm diffuse thinning, I'm using msm/vitc and it got me rid of itch and oil. Now I'm looking for some regrowth. So cetirizine didnt provide better growth than small terminal hairs? Perhaps a stronger antihistamine is needed? Or something added to the mix? Can it thicken thinning hair?

I just need something to ride out the "waiting wave" (until histogen, aderans, replicel give their products out.. 2-5 years at least)

----------


## rdawg

> My thoughts also. I'm diffuse thinning, I'm using msm/vitc and it got me rid of itch and oil. Now I'm looking for some regrowth. So cetirizine didnt provide better growth than small terminal hairs? Perhaps a stronger antihistamine is needed? Or something added to the mix? Can it thicken thinning hair?
> 
> I just need something to ride out the "waiting wave" (until histogen, aderans, replicel give their products out.. 2-5 years at least)


 yea we're in a 3-4 year transition period. Do whatever you can to hold on to what you have right now as you never know what the next product will do or how much growth it will give.

I'd still wait a bit on cetirizine here, it's only been a few months for some of those people.

----------


## Pate

> Just checked the German forums and it looks like they are maxing out at the "lots of small terminal hairs" stage, nobody has made a real breakthrough with regrowth. 
> 
> Be that as it may, I'm not hearing anyone say their shedding has gotten any worse, so while this may not be the knockout regrowth solution we hoped it would be, it still might stop further loss cheaply with no side effects, so we're still looking at a promising treatment, and PGD2 still seems like a good theory.  We just need something stronger.


 One thing you have to keep in mind is that regrowth could be expected to slow because these hairs are all sprouting together. A thicker hair takes longer to cycle so you'd expect that after an initial burst of growth, they would basically sit for a while until the next cycle of resting then growing again.

So the next couple of months will be critical. There may be another shed followed by even stronger growth. Or it may just stay as is. 

Regardless, this is really the first medication ever to have apparently grown terminal hair on slick bald scalp. We don't know what to expect. It may take more than 12 months to get a true, full length terminal hair, because it may take many cycles to repair fully.

Or it may be a dead end... The joys of being at the cutting edge of science!

----------


## Conpecia

> One thing you have to keep in mind is that regrowth could be expected to slow because these hairs are all sprouting together. A thicker hair takes longer to cycle so you'd expect that after an initial burst of growth, they would basically sit for a while until the next cycle of resting then growing again.
> 
> So the next couple of months will be critical. There may be another shed followed by even stronger growth. Or it may just stay as is. 
> 
> Regardless, this is really the first medication ever to have apparently grown terminal hair on slick bald scalp. We don't know what to expect. It may take more than 12 months to get a true, full length terminal hair, because it may take many cycles to repair fully.
> 
> Or it may be a dead end... The joys of being at the cutting edge of science!


 Yeah. Bottom line is this is growing hair on slick bald heads. Period. That makes it a huge step in the right direction. People will simply manipulate the variables until an optimal solution is arrived at and we'll be on our way to more important ventures.

Anyways, how has the past week been on Cet? Shedding? Anything?

I purchased all the stuff and am waiting for it to arrive this week. Can't afford to wait until January; hairline is going north quick. I'm pretty much going all in on the big 3 + Cet for one year and then calling it quits and saving up for a HT if my loss continues. Youth is too short to **** around with these experiments forever. I keep thinking 'at least I'll have a full head of hair in my 40s once Histogen or Replicel comes out.' **** that. These treatments have one year to stop my hairloss or it's HT time.

----------


## Pate

> Yeah. Bottom line is this is growing hair on slick bald heads. Period. That makes it a huge step in the right direction. People will simply manipulate the variables until an optimal solution is arrived at and we'll be on our way to more important ventures.
> 
> Anyways, how has the past week been on Cet? Shedding? Anything?
> 
> I purchased all the stuff and am waiting for it to arrive this week. Can't afford to wait until January; hairline is going north quick. I'm pretty much going all in on the big 3 + Cet for one year and then calling it quits and saving up for a HT if my loss continues. Youth is too short to **** around with these experiments forever. I keep thinking 'at least I'll have a full head of hair in my 40s once Histogen or Replicel comes out.' **** that. These treatments have one year to stop my hairloss or it's HT time.


 It's going fine so far. Day 12 today. It's hard to know about shedding, I do seem to be shedding more than usual but I'm well aware that it may be just a case of paying more attention to it. Couple of slightly pigmented hairs just breaking the skin near the hairline I don't remember before either, too fine to even resolve on my camera. 

Maybe I'm seeing the first sign of results, maybe it's just a prime example of the power of suggestion!

I hear you about the 'just have to hold on 10 more years...' feelings. It's so crap. And no guarantee it'll even happen. I have enough donor to fix my current thinning NW6 but I'm only 31 and I don't trust fin to keep working, so HTs are off the table for me. My genetic destiny is a slick bald NW6 and I'd rather be that than have a HT that doesn't have enough coverage.

So if PGD2 inhibitors don't work then it's Histogen/Replicel or nothing I'm afraid.

----------


## Kirby_

It gets me down to see how many are running under the assumption that they'll be no pharmacy level treatments available in the near future.  :Frown:

----------


## clandestine

> It gets me down to see how many are running under the assumption that they'll be no pharmacy level treatments available in the near future.


 Kirby mate; you've been down lately. Chin up! I realize it sucks propecia didn't work out for you, but it doesn't for many other men too. We just have to play our cards, and try our best. That's all anyone can ask of us. And you tried, absolutely. You made a decision, acting out of your best interests. Don't fret because of it, move forward from here!

----------


## goingquick

Couldn't find bottles with droppers anywhere so I ended up ordering them on Amazon. Damn things won't be here till the 30th. 




> It gets me down to see how many are running under the assumption that they'll be no pharmacy level treatments available in the near future.


 Histogen might not be that far away.  Who knows what the ****s up with Aderans and Replicel.

A pdg2 treatment, if they prove to even be effective, won't officially be released for a long time so if you wanna give that a shot I'd suggest doing like others in this thread and just making your own in the meantime.

----------


## goingquick

Is it not possible to edit your own posts on this forum?  I would have just added this to my last post.  Anyway, I'll be keeping a log of my Cet usage in this thread.

I picked up an eye dropper and distilled water at Walmart tonight, and made a small solution of topical Cet (20 ml distilled water, 20 Cet tabs).  The eye droppers have no marks for measurements, though I'm assuming they draw what is fairly close to 1ml.

----------


## caliboy

anyone getting good results without minox? Ive been doing it for a week without minox, will keep you guys posted, if i get any results from it.

----------


## doke

In the germans use did they use cet alone or with minoxidil.

----------


## Conpecia

> In the germans use did they use cet alone or with minoxidil.


 Hey Doke, think z German who had the most regrowth was using minox too. That's what I'm gonna try first. Had sides with 5% minox gonna try 2% on hairline only. Will update.

----------


## goingquick

> Hey Doke, think z German who had the most regrowth was using minox too. That's what I'm gonna try first. Had sides with 5% minox gonna try 2% on hairline only. Will update.


 Do you recall if most of the German forum members were using Cet once or twice a day?

----------


## thechamp

Why doesn't some one try a stronger blocker than cet

----------


## bananana

> Why doesn't some one try a stronger blocker than cet


 my thoughts exactly. ps, has someone explored - what are stronger blockers?  :Smile:

----------


## Pate

> It gets me down to see how many are running under the assumption that they'll be no pharmacy level treatments available in the near future.


 Oh I don't run under that assumption at all. I think bimatoprost is as near to a sure thing as we have. They've now proven it works on scalp follicles as well as eyelash so all it needs to do is offer enough advantage over minox and it will reach market.

CB is a better than 50-50 chance too IMO. Its main threat is Cosmo getting taken over by someone who is focused on their other products.

Those two will replace minox & fin in the Big 3. But that will mostly be for maintaining. We need either stem cells or some miracle with PGD2 to regrow a decent amount of hair.

----------


## mjolnir

> Hey Doke, think z German who had the most regrowth was using minox too. That's what I'm gonna try first. Had sides with 5% minox gonna try 2% on hairline only. Will update.


 But were they also using minox prior to starting with the cetirizine? If not, they could just be having good luck with the minox. It's not proper science if you're changing more than one variable.

----------


## thechamp

We need a stronger pgd2 topical aspirin or clarintine?

----------


## doke

There is guys its psi and go to hairloss help theres a lot about it on the foru m i have commented there.
It is still being trialed by neosil but i think a company is selling the tablets but it is expensive you have to apply it topicaly and as its a protein you have to be carefull when mixing, ie :Embarrassment: nly gently shake mix.
I have asked kane at kouting china of ru fame but he said that they tried it but as its a protein it degraded very quickly in days so they dropped it and are working on a sim product but not sure when it will be available.
There is a link at hlh forum to the company where you can buy psi and as its applied i think in a 14 day cycle with a gap then begin again this stuff if its the real deal and does not degrade as kane has said should regrow even bald scalps.

----------


## doke

well psi or proteasome inhibitor which was the neosil trial which i think will not be available for a few more years,anyway you apply 100mgs every 3 months in cycles.
And 200mgs from LABpe costs $220 make up 50% alcohol such as everclear) 25% distilled water,25% ppg and seperate into viles you want to add 5mgs a day to a 1ml to apply and make up a premade solution into a 4ml vial, this is a hlh users recipe so if you want to do your own thing its all experimental remember.
But as i said this stuff degrades so i think his recipe seems about right and you need to keep the rest of psi in the fridge.
So i think you could start with the 200mgs or some want to order 400 which will go a long way as said you lay off for periods and then restart if it works of course.
I will try to link you to the labpe site http://labpe.com/psi-200mg-p-339.html

----------


## doke

Apparently champ i think this stuff maybe the stuff as its so powerful it only needs to be used once a day for 21 days then a lay off and watch new hair sprout as said it is applied in two 14 day of 5mgs and then lay off for about a month then back to the resheme.
Im not sure if we will see the neosil 101 product as its been taken over by a company peplin the third takeover which has messed thinks up. :Mad:

----------


## thechamp

Doke history repeats itself I remember neosh 101  7 years ago I was waiting for it and still waiting a d it's 2012!

----------


## doke

hi champ its because peplin bought out neosil and put the phase 3 hair loss peptide on ice and it does not look like we will have it the same as the ru.

----------


## doke

neosil vehicle ppg 48.3mls
                   ethanol alcohol 38mls
                   deionized water 20mls 
                  =  100mls shake well then add 5mg per ml to mix so that you apply 5mg a day over 21 days 0.5% or you could mix 100grams to the whole 100mls not sure that it would mix that well as i have not tried it.
Also more info at hairlossbudda on many hair loss products and psi.

----------


## Pate

> But were they also using minox prior to starting with the cetirizine? If not, they could just be having good luck with the minox. It's not proper science if you're changing more than one variable.


 They were on minox for 12 months before starting cet.

That's long enough for any chances that are exclusively due to minox to show themselves.

Also, they grew terminal hair on a slick bald hairline. I very much doubt minox has done that to anybody - ever.

----------


## doke

If certrizine does regrow hair as well as the neosil 101 it would be good as we know psi is pricey and another gamble.

----------


## Conpecia

Doke are there photos showing regrowth from this stuff? Don't see why there'd be any hype about it without proof. That's the main thing that has me excited about Cet.

----------


## rdawg

> They were on minox for 12 months before starting cet.
> 
> That's long enough for any chances that are exclusively due to minox to show themselves.
> 
> Also, they grew terminal hair on a slick bald hairline. I very much doubt minox has done that to anybody - ever.


 I'd probably recomend using Minoxidil at the same time anyways, it is a growth stimulator and helps the blood flow etc. it potentially enhances the affects of CET. 

I also would'nt expect a full review of this stuff for another couple months, you may not get the full benefits at month 3-4. Who is the farthest along with Cet?

----------


## maxhair

I've been on fin and minox for one year, and I've been using CET for 2 months, on one side of my head only. Standard strength as first tried in the German forum. So far...

... so far it has made absolutely no difference. No shed, no new hair, occassional itch. Should I up the strength of the next batch to 10%?

----------


## Pate

> I'd probably recomend using Minoxidil at the same time anyways, it is a growth stimulator and helps the blood flow etc. it potentially enhances the affects of CET. 
> 
> I also would'nt expect a full review of this stuff for another couple months, you may not get the full benefits at month 3-4. Who is the farthest along with Cet?


 Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the absolute earliest anyone started cet was about May, so 6 months, and most started about July, so 4 months. Definitely not long enough to know for sure what the long term results will be.

As for me, I'm two weeks today!

Has anybody seen any updates on the other forums?

----------


## thechamp

Hairloss Buddha I'm glad I didn't take there advice on topical fin they say its a waste of time, 3 weeks in 5 proscar pills in my spectral dnc and I can a sure you my hair is getting thicker :Smile:

----------


## Conpecia

> Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the absolute earliest anyone started cet was about May, so 6 months, and most started about July, so 4 months. Definitely not long enough to know for sure what the long term results will be.
> 
> As for me, I'm two weeks today!
> 
> Has anybody seen any updates on the other forums?


 The Germans are really close to abandoning this. Nobody can get cosmetically relevant results and some of them are 5 months in I believe. The last page of that thread is full of people giving up. Sucks. But again I would hold on for at least 6 months no matter what, probably longer. 

You mentioned you weren't a good candidate for a HT because you would continue to bald past the transplanted zone. Ever considered HST? My last resort is to get a really good surgeon to do a NW1 hairline and then go to Dr. Gho for touch ups on any other problem areas further back as needed. Looks like Gho really can regrow donor hair. How's your donor area? Mine is pretty good, I would actually prefer to have less hair in that region as it's way too thick. Don't give up hope on HTs man, options are there and getting better.

----------


## thechamp

I'm nw1 and my big 3 is topical fin with spectral dnc 5 proscar tablets crushed a d nizoral 2 percent twice a week this should hold me I don't shed much at all!!

----------


## hellouser

> I'm nw1 and my big 3 is topical fin with spectral dnc 5 proscar tablets crushed a d nizoral 2 percent twice a week this should hold me I don't shed much at all!!


 There's a topical finasteride?

----------


## thechamp

Made it myself alot of people have claimed succes with proscar tablets crushed in to minoxidil!!

----------


## ammin

Champ. You should really enjoy life and work towards fulfilling your goals.

Stay on your current treatments to maintain your peace of mind. But even to the hair junkie , your hair loss is imperceptible , even on close inspection.

Talk to a counsellor and see if you have Body Dysmorphia. I say this with utmost humility since I think I might...

----------


## doke

> Doke are there photos showing regrowth from this stuff? Don't see why there'd be any hype about it without proof. That's the main thing that has me excited about Cet.


 Im not sure there are any pics as you may know neosil 101 was in phase 2 trials and they were completed but alas another company bought neosil and got rid of many of its staff and they have put psi on ice.
I did hear that hair regrew on an nw7 which nothing at this time can do and although no pics which does not really mean much as many i have seen can be doctered and have even been from people with hair transplants so do not take too much from them.
Go to hairlossbudda and you will get some more info on the psi.

----------


## doke

A guy at immortal forum called bocor used 100mgs of psi and in three weeks grew a lot of hair but where he got it he was unable to get hold of anymore that was some years ago.
So this shit may be the what we want and its available to buy so i may consider it.

----------


## thechamp

A guy at immortal forum called bocor used 100mgs of psi and in three weeks grew a lot of hair but where he got it he was unable to get hold of anymore that was some years ago.
So this shit may be the what we want and its available to buy so i may consider it.

So is it avadabile now doke?

----------


## doke

champ its available at the link a few of my posts back at Labpe usa you can buy it at 100mgs,200mg and 400mg which the latter would be 8 months treatment.
The only thing to be careful of it needs to be stored below 20c so the freezer is where the powder should be thats why if i try it i think i will get 100mgs which you only use for 21 days then lay off about a month before restarting.
You only need 5mg once a day for the 21 days but champ wait before buying as at hair loss help some others are trying it and im waiting for there results before i commit to buy i hope it does work.
It is about $130 for 100mgs so its pricey in uk its about £82.

----------


## doke

> well psi or proteasome inhibitor which was the neosil trial which i think will not be available for a few more years,anyway you apply 100mgs every 3 months in cycles.
> And 200mgs from LABpe costs $220 make up 50% alcohol such as everclear) 25% distilled water,25% ppg and seperate into viles you want to add 5mgs a day to a 1ml to apply and make up a premade solution into a 4ml vial, this is a hlh users recipe so if you want to do your own thing its all experimental remember.
> But as i said this stuff degrades so i think his recipe seems about right and you need to keep the rest of psi in the fridge.
> So i think you could start with the 200mgs or some want to order 400 which will go a long way as said you lay off for periods and then restart if it works of course.
> I will try to link you to the labpe site http://labpe.com/psi-200mg-p-339.html


 link champ and others be careful as im not saying it will work and im waiting for hairlosshelp users first.

----------


## doke

Sorry guys i think you would use for 21 days and then lay off a month so every other month.
I said in the link post every 3 months.

----------


## Hair Bear

This strangely reminds me of the time someone claimed that using a fresh leaf of aloe vera produced similar results or the time someone used anti fungal cream on their head... 
I know I am coming across as critical but one can't help but wonder what crops up next, perhaps a banana peel will be next.  :Big Grin:  (I jest)

In all seriousness though, applaud your good efforts and perseverance. Has anyone tried using a scalp roller in conjunction with this concoction?

----------


## doke

> This strangely reminds me of the time someone claimed that using a fresh leaf of aloe vera produced similar results or the time someone used anti fungal cream on their head... 
> I know I am coming across as critical but one can't help but wonder what crops up next, perhaps a banana peel will be next.  (I jest)
> 
> In all seriousness though, applaud your good efforts and perseverance. Has anyone tried using a scalp roller in conjunction with this concoction?


 are you talking about certrizine or psi?

----------


## Pate

> The Germans are really close to abandoning this. Nobody can get cosmetically relevant results and some of them are 5 months in I believe. The last page of that thread is full of people giving up. Sucks. But again I would hold on for at least 6 months no matter what, probably longer. 
> 
> You mentioned you weren't a good candidate for a HT because you would continue to bald past the transplanted zone. Ever considered HST? My last resort is to get a really good surgeon to do a NW1 hairline and then go to Dr. Gho for touch ups on any other problem areas further back as needed. Looks like Gho really can regrow donor hair. How's your donor area? Mine is pretty good, I would actually prefer to have less hair in that region as it's way too thick. Don't give up hope on HTs man, options are there and getting better.


 What about the guy who grew those terminal hairs at his temples? Did it just stop growing? If I got his results I would keep going to 12 months for sure. You just don't know how the hair will behave long-term.

If I see absolutely no results by 3 months I'll probably stop. But like you said if I see any results I'll keep going to at least six months, probably 12.

Re HTs, my donor zone is actually really good. I have very thick hair and I guess average to above average density. I'm also a high NW6 so I have a larger area than normal. Like you said I wouldn't mind it getting thinned out a bit. In fact when I used to need haircuts (I buzz now), they used to use those thinning shears on me to thin my hair out.

The problem is just that every time I look at HT photos of NW6, they never look good. Has the HT community accepted that Goh can regrow donor? I haven't really been following it because I'm sceptical and seems to me if it doesn't work you run the risk of very high transection rate. Saw a guy the other day with a large nasty strip scar but only about 10% graft survival at a guess. He shaved his head but it looked pretty bad. I'd rather be bald.

So that's what's holding me back. If Goh or Histogen could regrow my thinning areas I would not hesitate to get 2500 FUE to my temples, but right now I'm just waiting to see what happens.

----------


## doke

Remember this is only one or two people at the most on cert so its no big deal if it was many would have done this years ago and even pharma companies would have trial it for male pattern loss, i now think it could even cause hair loss as i tried it and my whole scalp became thin and dry and sore so i stopped its now returning to normal.
Im with the neosil 101 thats the thing im going on next as its going to be many years if ever before it starts phase three trials.

----------


## doke

I might add i did first mix as per instructions with 33 10mg tabs but the ppg made it very greasy so i decided to add a bit more alcohol and another 40mgs of tabs which would be total 73mgs im wondering if to restart again but go back to the 33tabs but just reduce ppg and alcohol with more distilled water instead.
Or maybe mix in some aloe gel which may help with dryness.?

----------


## Conpecia

Doke why not straight up water and Cet? That's what Casperz started with.

I got my minox and Cet this weekend, still a little hesitant to pull the trigger. Always the small part of me that questions whether I'll recover from the initial shed. I guess I can start with slick bald areas and move back if I see improvement. Also worried about minox sides. Gave me baggy eyes and looked like it was aging me when I was doing the 5&#37; every day. Hopefully 2% won't be so bad...

----------


## Conpecia

EVERYONE WHO IS CURRENTLY CONSIDERING OR ACTUALLY USING THIS TREATMENT PLEASE READ:

There may be a correlation between the pg/ethanol vehicle and effects such as scalp dryness and increased shedding without regrowth. The people who are experiencing regrowth with no sides are using WATER ONLY as the vehicle. That is also what Casperz did in the beginning. Casperz switched to the ethanol vehicle last week and he believes he may have taken a step back.

Now this may just be the treatment itself losing its efficacy on Casperz, but I would start this treatment with Cet/Water, as I've yet to hear any complaints with that vehicle other than more difficulty with application. I've got three accounts of Cet/Water working with no sides, and three accounts of Cet/pg/ethanol causing scalp itch and minimal results. Not much data to go by but I figure everything should be recorded. I don't want people saying this doesn't work because they are using a faulty vehicle.

----------


## goingquick

6 days in so far.  Scalp has felt good the last few days; could just be coincidence, too soon to say.

I've been using it unfiltered up to this point, though after applying today I put what I have left through a coffee filter.  Hopefully the filters aren't absorbing the Cet.

----------


## doke

hi are you using the 33 tabs as per german use or a higher dose?

----------


## goingquick

> hi are you using the 33 tabs as per german use or a higher dose?


 I'm using one 10mg tab per 1ml of distilled water.

----------


## thechamp

I know this is off topic but I'm onto something with topical fin and spectral dnc deliver system my hair is so much thicker it's amazing doke give me your email ill send some pics!

----------


## thechamp

I don't have a pc only iPhone any one got a link I can post my pics

----------


## doke

hi champ are you still using trx2 as well and what are you using together with spectral dnc,is it the dnc l or just the 5&#37; minox? what is your topical finas how many mgs and the mix? how long have you been using all of these.

----------


## thechamp

Just using 4.5 percent minoxidil with five crushed proscar tablets is your email right not working ?

----------


## doke

hi champ i pm you my email address? have you got it.

----------


## thechamp

Doke but for some reason it's not sending you got another one

----------


## doke

sorry champ it should have had com at the end.

----------


## thechamp

You can post them if you like and I think I have seen improvement :Smile:

----------


## doke

many thanks champ it looks good how long on the minox and do you add the finas to the minox? also you did not seem to have any total bald spots?

----------


## thechamp

Yeh The start of balding I'm not sure if my hair is just thicker or regrowth, now my idea is do you guys know any other minoxidil that has nansomes delivery, spectral is 4.5 percent which is good for me cose my hair is stable, I suggest stronger if you are more than Norwood one ill send some more pics tommrow night, after I have a shower before I treat my hair :Smile:

----------


## doke

how many years or months on the minox.

----------


## thechamp

Proscar bought a pill crusher a funnel and crush the five tablets in to a 60 ml bottle I'm going to boost it to eight soon, I was on spectral for a year stable in the last 4 weeks or more boom my hair is getting thicker!

----------


## thechamp

Doke get a minoxidil with nansomes and bam add the proscar tablets

----------


## thechamp

I sent you pics of the thining parts had to spread my hair apart swear there getting smaller :Smile:

----------


## neversaynever

> I sent you pics of the thining parts had to spread my hair apart swear there getting smaller


 Cant you just post the photos on the forum?????

----------


## Jcm800

Champs got a shitload of hair, no idea why he's even on here. Doke post on his behalf pls, let's have another look lol

----------


## thechamp

But this is helpfull for any one with a Norwood one my pc is broke I give doke promision to post my pics for me!!! My iPhone wont up load on here

----------


## doke

has this link worked

----------


## doke

has this link worked

----------


## Jcm800

Both worked doke, can see champs mop. He hasn't lost any since posting pics over a year ago lol

----------


## doke

hi jc there is prob a slight diffuse loss under different light conditions but is nowhere as bad as my receading hairline and crown loss.
My loss has slowed down as i restarted minox with progestorone but my shedding was noticable in the plug hole sinse stopping and only on proscar half tab a day my loss has stopped completely.
So i scared of going on minox again not only that it makes my scalp itch im thinking of staying on my proscar and addind a natural topical called capillary which had some good feedback and pics of good regrwth on a bald scalp.

----------


## Jcm800

Allo doke mate, it's cool guess champ knows his hair better than us. Good luck with your latest trials, have to start calling you the chemist haha

----------


## doke

yo jc what are you still using are you on trx2 still

----------


## Jcm800

Yeah still on that and have been on gutted's combo for 3 months or so too

----------


## doke

is that neogenic that gutted is on and any regrowth? i forgot i have started taking l lysine 1,500 mgs a day as i read it can help with propecia, read it at hairlossresearch.

----------


## Jcm800

Think he does use that but I meant his msm/VitC combo. Nothing but nice nails for me so far really but it's early days, shall see.

----------


## thechamp

> Think he does use that but I meant his msm/VitC combo. Nothing but nice nails for me so far really but it's early days, shall see.


 Jc at least I have empathy for others and I'm trying something that could be a good edition if you don't want to take oral fin

----------


## doke

hi champ why not try 1ml with 5mgs of finas per day? but as with certrizine mix a 20ml bottle 5mgs per ml.

----------


## thechamp

> hi champ why not try 1ml with 5mgs of finas per day? but as with certrizine mix a 20ml bottle 5mgs per ml.


 I'm going to copy a guy from a hair loss forum tommylee from 2008 i put 8 five proscar tablets in my minoxidil and eventual ten that's enough!

----------


## doke

This german product in trials is said to halt genetic hair loss it contains rhodanid i got some from a german site it is called activogland a shampoo and lotion so i will try it.

----------


## Conpecia

Anybody got any updates on Cet? Pate? Casperz? Are you guys still not shedding anymore?

----------


## Pate

Three weeks in today. No sign of dark hairs growing on the bald patched. Hard to tell about the hairline but I would say nothing yet. Still pretty early to expect results.

No noticeable increase in shedding. I shed a lot anyway so it'd be hard to tell.

My gut feeling is this won't work for me in its current formulation. But it needs at least 6 months to be sure.

----------


## goingquick

Ten days in today.  I may be speaking too soon, but it appears to be helpful with itching.  Way too early for any growth, not from Cet or anything else I'm using (1 month fin and minox so far)




> Three weeks in today. No sign of dark hairs growing on the bald patched. Hard to tell about the hairline but I would say nothing yet. Still pretty early to expect results.
> 
> No noticeable increase in shedding. I shed a lot anyway so it'd be hard to tell.
> 
> My gut feeling is this won't work for me in its current formulation. But it needs at least 6 months to be sure.


 Will you be trying a stronger formulation at some point?  If I recall correctly you're applying half the dose that Casperz is.

----------


## Pate

> Ten days in today.  I may be speaking too soon, but it appears to be helpful with itching.  Way too early for any growth, not from Cet or anything else I'm using (1 month fin and minox so far)
> 
> 
> 
> Will you be trying a stronger formulation at some point?  If I recall correctly you're applying half the dose that Casperz is.


 I'm using I think the same dose casperz started with, he's now doubled it.

I don't think I will up the dose. May add minox to the mix though. But I will give it 3 months at this formulation first then reevaluate.

----------


## rdawg

> Three weeks in today. No sign of dark hairs growing on the bald patched. Hard to tell about the hairline but I would say nothing yet. Still pretty early to expect results.
> 
> No noticeable increase in shedding. I shed a lot anyway so it'd be hard to tell.
> 
> My gut feeling is this won't work for me in its current formulation. But it needs at least 6 months to be sure.


 Yea far too early, hair cycle is around a month isnt it at least?

Minoxidil may be a key factor as well as it promotes PGE2 does it not?

----------


## eqvist

Is it someone that uses Cet with minox and fin?

----------


## rdawg

> Is it someone that uses Cet with minox and fin?


 I believe a few of the original guys were on both(but far past a year so very unlikely it gave them this new hair.)

However it's very possible the combination helped to boost the results.

I would recommend using minoxidil as well, at least I dont see a big reason not to, an inhibitor+a stimulator right.

----------


## hellouser

I'm ready to drop a bit of coin on some Cetirizine pills. Can anyone recommend a brand thats most POTENT against PGD2?

I haven't read this thread in a while and dont feel like going through 30+ pages

Ideally I'd like to get a large supply of Cet, put in a coffee grinder, mix it with my shampoos and then blend it. Just one more method in fighting this f*cking disease.

----------


## goingquick

I don't see that any particular brand would be more potent than another.  Cetirizine is cetirizine is cetirizine.  I used a coffee grinder for my first batch, but from what I understand it isn't necessary.  You can just put whole pills into water and let them dissolve.

----------


## neversaynever

Can I really crush fin pills and dissolve it in my 5% minox? Anyone else tried this?

----------


## hellouser

> I don't see that any particular brand would be more potent than another.  Cetirizine is cetirizine is cetirizine.  I used a coffee grinder for my first batch, but from what I understand it isn't necessary.  You can just put whole pills into water and let them dissolve.


 So just buy the cheapest stuff from the local drug store or ebay thats got cetirizine and be on my merry way in fighting baldness?

----------


## goingquick

> So just buy the cheapest stuff from the local drug store or ebay thats got cetirizine and be on my merry way in fighting baldness?


 Pretty much.  I bought mine on Amazon, this one in particular

A half hour ago I put thirty 10mg tablets of Cet in 30ml of distilled water.  I put the tablets in whole as I'm curious to see how long it will take for them to fully dissolve.

edit: Are you using any thing else to treat your hair loss?

----------


## Conpecia

Anyone know of any other pge2 promoters? Minox gives me sides.

----------


## typicallyconcerned

Anyone willing to post some result pics??

----------


## rdawg

> Anyone know of any other pge2 promoters? Minox gives me sides.


 Thats an interesting one actually, as they may be very related to cause growth and such.

So yes, pharmicists, what other products can potentially promote pge2?(safely is obviously better.)

----------


## Dan26

> Anyone know of any other pge2 promoters? Minox gives me sides.


 What kind of sides? It is important to know!

----------


## goingquick

> Anyone willing to post some result pics??


 Casperz posted some of his own pics in this thread (just gotta go back and look for them).  There are also links in this thread somewhere to pics of another Cet user that claims regrowth of small dark hairs in front of his hairline. 

I've only been using Cet for about 3 weeks, and Pate's being using Cet maybe only a week or so more than I have, so we've hardly been using it long enough to have anything to show.

I think there might be one other poster in this thread that recently started, but obviously it's too early for him to have any pictures to post either.

----------


## neversaynever

> Thats an interesting one actually, as they may be very related to cause growth and such.
> 
> So yes, pharmicists, what other products can potentially promote pge2?(safely is obviously better.)


 Ricinoleic acid

----------


## rdawg

> Ricinoleic acid


 So castor oil. Just looked that up, apparently it's quite safe and has been used for/on hair for a while.

However it's never been used in conjunction with a PGD2 inhibitor(or even fin?) from what I've read so there's some potential that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11263183

----------


## neversaynever

> So castor oil. Just looked that up, apparently it's quite safe and has been used for/on hair for a while.
> 
> However it's never been used in conjunction with a PGD2 inhibitor(or even fin?) from what I've read so there's some potential that.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11263183


 Some pgd2 inhibitors can stop it from working, a pgd2 receptor blocker should be fine though (Ricinoleic acid goes for the ep3 and ep4 receptors)

----------


## bananana

> Oh NO!
> 
> Guys I just came across this study and it seems like Cetrizine will not alter PGD2 all that much.
> 
> Loratadine (Claratyne) however, showed marked reduction of PGD2! So could these guys just be having a placebo effect?!
> 
> Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7690526


 goddamn you des!  :Big Grin: 

i just read this while preparing my first batch of cetirizine. What do you suggest I do now? Should I use it? I got 400 tabs, I've mixed 100 in today.

I found LORATADINE on ebay and its even cheaper than cetirizine.

----------


## thechamp

CLARITIN
(loratadine) Tablets, Syrup, and Rapidly-Disintegrating Tablets
Now available Over-The-Counter (OTC); No prescription needed I was saying this ages ago trying this instead of cet

----------


## bananana

> CLARITIN
> (loratadine) Tablets, Syrup, and Rapidly-Disintegrating Tablets
> Now available Over-The-Counter (OTC); No prescription needed I was saying this ages ago trying this instead of cet


 Well, I didnt see it bro. What do you think, should I try cetirizine since I've already made the solution, or just throw it all and buy loratadine instead
(300 tabs -> just $15!)?

----------


## thechamp

Well I would try clarintine if it safe who knows but we know it blocks pgd2 more than cet

----------


## bananana

> Well I would try clarintine if it safe who knows but we know it blocks pgd2 more than cet


 Hm, ok. I'll use cet till my loratadine arrives... Ps, I have 300 tabs of cet if anyone wants to buy?  :Smile:

----------


## thechamp

[QUOTE=bananana;92614]Hm, ok. I'll use cet till my loratadine arrives... Ps, I have 300 tabs of cet if anyone wants to buy?  :Smile:  why didn't the Germans try clarintine instead of cet

----------


## bananana

[QUOTE=thechamp;92617]


> Hm, ok. I'll use cet till my loratadine arrives... Ps, I have 300 tabs of cet if anyone wants to buy?  why didn't the Germans try clarintine instead of cet


 Beats me! No idea!

I didnt know that other thing is more effective till I saw Desmonds' post on the forum.

----------


## Dan26

http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/69/4/1441

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Conpecia

My biggest hope for Cet at this point is that it stops further hairloss or at least dramatically slows it down. From what I've observed on the German forum it doesn't look like this alone is going to be enough of a growth stimulant to regrow hair. But if it can just prevent further loss the way finasteride can, that will be a huge, huge step forward. I'm really curious to know if anybody who has reported a decrease or stoppage in shedding because of Cet is STILL having positive results in that regard.

----------


## thechamp

[QUOTE=Conpecia;92667]My biggest hope for Cet at this point is that it stops further hairloss or at least dramatically slows it down. From what I've observed on the German forum it doesn't look like this alone is going to be enough of a growth stimulant to regrow hair. But if it can just prevent further loss the way finasteride can, that will be a huge, huge step forward. I'm really curious to know if anybody who has reported a decrease or stoppage in shedding because of Cet is STILL having positive results in that regard. I'm having the same results with topical fin no regrowth but stopping of hair-loss and also thickening of my hair :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

[QUOTE=bananana;92618]


> Beats me! No idea!
> 
> I didnt know that other thing is more effective till I saw Desmonds' post on the forum.


 Would this work better than Cetirizine (Zyrtec or Claritine);

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KIRKLAND-ALL...item43b5b32e62

Thats pretty cheap for 365 pills.

----------


## thechamp

Pgd2 is just a pipe dream how do we know it will even work!!

----------


## goingquick

For those quoting Desmond's post about Cetirizine, maybe you should have read a little further into the thread.




> Hey guys,
> 
> I thought it was really odd how Cetirizine had shown no effect on PGD2, particularly since Cetirizine is far more effective than Loratadine (Claratyne) & Fexofenadine (Telfast) when it comes to SKIN allergies.
> 
> So I did a lot of digging and found that within 5 hours of its oral use it inhibits PGD2 production in the skin by at least 50%!
> 
> I think the previous study was looking at PGD2 levels in nasal mucosa. I guess it makes sense. For example, antihistamines don't seem to work when you have a runny nose due to a cold (minimum effect on PGD2 in the nose) so we have to resort to Sudafed (Pseudoephedrine) to dry up and unblock our nose 
> 
> Here's a study for you guys to look at. This was conducted during its approval process 
> ...

----------


## thechamp

> For those quoting Desmond's post about Cetirizine, maybe you should have read a little further into the thread.


 Cromolyns I found info on this on another hairloss forum there was talk of trying this until any one does we will know if  reduction pgd2 works or not

----------


## thechamp

> For those quoting Desmond's post about Cetirizine, maybe you should have read a little further into the thread.


 You can now get Intal Spincaps from Hard To Find Medicines (www.hardtofindmedicines.co.uk) with an NHS prescription. 
Just call them to confirm, send your prescription to their FreePost address and the Intal Spincaps will arrive registered post a few days later. It works a dream. Good luck!

----------


## Conpecia

[QUOTE=thechamp;92674]


> My biggest hope for Cet at this point is that it stops further hairloss or at least dramatically slows it down. From what I've observed on the German forum it doesn't look like this alone is going to be enough of a growth stimulant to regrow hair. But if it can just prevent further loss the way finasteride can, that will be a huge, huge step forward. I'm really curious to know if anybody who has reported a decrease or stoppage in shedding because of Cet is STILL having positive results in that regard. I'm having the same results with topical fin no regrowth but stopping of hair-loss and also thickening of my hair


 Do you have any sides? I can't handle fin orally but am desperate to halt my hairloss. Did you have sides taking fin orally?

----------


## thechamp

[QUOTE=Conpecia;92851]


> Do you have any sides? I can't handle fin orally but am desperate to halt my hairloss. Did you have sides taking fin orally?


 Yep I would grow hair with weight gain so topically is the way to go for me people say it dont work but plenty of people claim it works topical fin deffenitly slows shedding

----------


## vinnytr

[QUOTE=thechamp;92884]


> Yep I would grow hair with weight gain so topically is the way to go for me people say it dont work but plenty of people claim it works topical fin deffenitly slows shedding


 Very interested !! Any sides with topical FIN ? 
how do you apply FIN topically ?

----------


## thechamp

[QUOTE=vinnytr;92886]


> Very interested !! Any sides with topical FIN ? 
> how do you apply FIN topically ?


 After reading about topical fin I decided 10 5 mg crushed in to spectral dnc or u use any minoxidil you like, sore stomach is the side I have nothing to bad

----------


## eqvist

Anyone using cet with fin and minx?

----------


## goingquick

> Anyone using cet with fin and minx?


 I am.  I've been on fin and minox foam 2x a day since 10/25/12, and started using cet 1x a day on 11/20/12.

----------


## eqvist

> I am.  I've been on fin and minox foam 2x a day since 10/25/12, and started using cet 1x a day on 11/20/12.


 Okey interesting, do it can be hard to know what is what if you have a good regrow.

----------


## thechamp

Stronger pgd2 blocker I wanna try a stronger pgd2 blocker than cet Desmond or any one know a stronger one than cet!!!

----------


## thechamp

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...is-on-hairloss

----------


## Pate

Five week cet update.

I have noticed no regrowth yet, but I have noticed a big shed in my frontal scalp. I'm not sure whether this is related to cet or if it's hair loss from when I had 3 weeks off fin about 2 months ago.

What I can say for sure is I have not seen the sort of temple regrowth at one month that the German guy saw.

I have just ordered some RU. I imagine it'll take about a month to arrive so I'll carry on the cet until the 2 month mark, then prob switch to RU. I know it's not enough time to fully evaluate cet but the reason for testing was to see if I could reproduce the German results. 

I haven't so far and combined with the lack of results reported by others, suggests to me it probably won't happen.

----------


## Conpecia

Man that's tough news. For a month or so I thought we'd found something huge. So many people were reporting major decreased shedding and what looked like the beginning of regrowth, then everything crashed and burned. 

Pate- props to you for trying it out and I'm sorry you didn't see the kind of regrowth we were hoping for. RU certainly has a better track record around here and should 'work wonders' for you as well.  

At least Histogen has experienced a little revival on the forum. I'll keep monitoring the German site and *** for a month but I doubt there's much more to see around here...

----------


## thechamp

> Man that's tough news. For a month or so I thought we'd found something huge. So many people were reporting major decreased shedding and what looked like the beginning of regrowth, then everything crashed and burned. 
> 
> Pate- props to you for trying it out and I'm sorry you didn't see the kind of regrowth we were hoping for. RU certainly has a better track record around here and should 'work wonders' for you as well.  
> 
> At least Histogen has experienced a little revival on the forum. I'll keep monitoring the German site and *** for a month but I doubt there's much more to see around here...


  this forum tells you why cet doesn't work http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...is-on-hairloss we need a better pgd2 blocker

----------


## thechamp

http://www.eroids.com/news/research-...man-guinea-pig check this out bald guy growing hairs on his head

----------


## ardana

it's funny those result pics are always as bad as they get
almost as if....they want to fool people

----------


## caliboy

Anybody using cetirizine with just water only? it seems like the only people that are getting zero shed and regrowth are the people using cetirizine with water only.

----------


## bananana

> Anybody using cetirizine with just water only? it seems like the only people that are getting zero shed and regrowth are the people using cetirizine with water only.


 I'm using it just with water, but I didnt run it through coffee filter so it colors my hair white every time I use it.  :Big Grin: 

I'll go to buy filters today.

----------


## bananana

ps, I notice less hairs in the sink after 10 days of usage.

----------


## thechamp

So is there a better blocker than cet that I can buy over the counter I wanna try it???

----------


## goingquick

> Five week cet update.
> 
> I have noticed no regrowth yet, but I have noticed a big shed in my frontal scalp. I'm not sure whether this is related to cet or if it's hair loss from when I had 3 weeks off fin about 2 months ago.


 Could you make note in this thread after you go off cet as to whether or not you notice an increase in itching after you quit?  Cet seems to help me a lot with itching, but I've been reading about how when you go off of oral cet, the side effect is extreme itching all over the body.

I've noticed some itching on the days where I've been out all day and didn't get a chance to apply my afternoon cet application.  I don't know if it's cet withdrawal or itching I would have had otherwise had I never used cet at all.

I'm thinking about just calling it quits with cet now just to avoid serious backlash that I might get from extended use.

----------


## Pate

Will do. It makes sense that you'd get a big itch coming off oral cet because there would be a big inflammation rebound response.

Whether it happens with topical I guess depends on whether it's even being absorbed into the skin.

----------


## jman91

bump charrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr  rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

----------


## hellouser

So we saw that Cetirizine was able to grow some very small hairs in slick bald areas. But did anyone experience any regrowth in thinning areas??

----------


## Conpecia

Over at *** forum they're still pressing on with this treatment, using a water vehicle. Apparently the Brazilians are getting into it as well. Most people have given up on it around here but it seems that progress is being made, albeit at a snail's pace. It works, but we haven't figured out the perfect dosage/vehicle. I haven't seen any groundbreaking pics, and I haven't visited the German forum in a month or so, but I'll say the best news from this Cet experiment is that I have yet to hear of someone who's been on it over 3 months say that their hair loss got worse. So there's still potential for this to have fin-like ability to stop loss in its tracks. Again, not enough data to confirm, and no news on whether it substantially thickens existing hair, but there is still hope for this whole PGD2 thing...

----------


## Buster

> but I'll say the best news from this Cet experiment is that I have yet to hear of someone who's been on it over 3 months say that their hair loss got worse.


 A lot of people experienced bad sheds, on ***, and on the German forum. Just read the last few pages of the thread over on ***- one of the German forum members posted on there and says he didn't get any results, and many of the others guys on the German forum had bad sheds and didn't recover. It seems like a gamble.

----------


## Kirby_

^ a gamble that you should avoid IMO. The loss might be some temporary TE that reverses eventually, but why take the risk? There's no evidence for this working beyond a few forum-goers making unsupported claims.

----------


## Conpecia

> ^ a gamble that you should avoid IMO. The loss might be some temporary TE that reverses eventually, but why take the risk? There's no evidence for this working beyond a few forum-goers making unsupported claims.


 It all depends on your NW level. If you're anything under 3.5 I'd not risk it. If you're a high NW and have nothing to lose I'd be more willing. I think as a rule of thumb if people aren't commenting regularly on your hair loss and you're not socially classified as a baldie, stick with the big 3 and see if you can keep what you have without succumbing to the sides.

----------


## Buster

> It all depends on your NW level. If you're anything under 3.5 I'd not risk it. If you're a high NW and have nothing to lose I'd be more willing. I think as a rule of thumb if people aren't commenting regularly on your hair loss and you're not socially classified as a baldie, stick with the big 3 and see if you can keep what you have without succumbing to the sides.


 Agreed. I went on Fin and had a nasty shed within two months of starting it. I have yet to recover after 10/11 months. I wish I hadn't started it, but it's too late now.It's the same with cetrizine in that you may get results, but you may wish you hadn't tried it on the otherhand. I don't personally want to risk it, but I would if I was a norwood 5 or 6.

----------


## goingquick

I'm still using it, though I've been very incosistent with applications the last 2 or 3 weeks.  I really wish I could get a hold of cetirizine powder, as the crushed up tablets leave a lot of crap on your head, even after going through a filter.  I'm also using fin and minox foam so it's pretty much impossible to isolate my results.  

I added the cetirizine to my regime because about 8 years ago I used liquid minox and fin and didn't get good results, so this time around I wanted to add in something that might give me an additional boost.  At the very least I think it helps reduce itching, though that could placebo.

You can see my treatment journal here: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...hlight=journal

----------


## Dan26

i don't know much about certizine but realized the reactin allergy pills I take contain it :S :S :S

----------


## Chromeo

> i don't know much about certizine but realized the reactin allergy pills I take contain it :S :S :S


 What's your point?

----------


## Dan26

> What's your point?


 No point bro.

Certizine aint even on my radar b....

----------


## Conpecia

Something's definitely up with this stuff. Seen a couple photos of guys at the 6 month mark with pretty noticeable regrowth. Apparently combining with a minox regimen is the way to go. Let's not fall asleep on this around here, we may have bailed too early.

Cet/Minox could replace Fin/Minox is the hope...

----------


## hellouser

> Seen a couple photos of guys at the 6 month mark with pretty noticeable regrowth.


 Links? Pics?

----------


## clandestine

> Links? Pics?


 Seconded. Claims need proof..

----------


## Campbell22

I jumped on the band wagon with this a few weeks ago and bought my local pharmacy out of the antihistamine but was only using it orally. 

I know most people are using it topically and I know there probably isn't any reliable evidence yet to decide which route is better, if any.

But if the general consensus is that you have to do a quick extration of the pills and then use a vehicle then I will but at the moment I'm either just taking them orally or if Im more honest, lately not at all as Im quite happy with minox/capil/duta. 

I did even go the MSM Vit C route and have massive stocks of both of them but am thinking it is probably best to take an additive approach as I had great results with fin just couldnt handle the sides and so far so good with Duta just obviously no regrowth as its only just been started.

If certirizine does prove successful then that would be great as in my head there is definitely an inflammatory involvement in MPB as well as many other possible factors. the obvious being DHT of course.

----------


## Conpecia

Sorry guys, was up late last night and just wanted to report really quick. Here is the link:

http://www.*****************/interact...opecia)/page79

Casperz has been on for 6 months and is obviously regrowing his crown area. Hasn't lost hair at all since his initial shed in the first month. That's the most important point to me, as minox alone would not be slowing down his loss. 

Kamikaze has been on for 4 months and looks like he's regrowing a bit but there aren't before pics so take it with a grain of salt.

Chromeo is also saying he was on Minox for a while and didn't see anything, now that he's added Cet there are results. Unfortunately he has no before or after pics but I don't think there's any incentive for him to just lie about it; not like these are guys at some snake oil company who can profit off of selling Cetirizine, which is very cheap and widely available. Vehicle is just Cet and water. Really simple. Anyone who's on Minox should consider adding it if the good news keeps coming.

----------


## Campbell22

> Vehicle is just Cet and water. Really simple. Anyone who's on Minox should consider adding it if the good news keeps coming.


 Thanks. That's exactly what I will do as I already have everything.  :Smile:

----------


## Conpecia

> Thanks. That's exactly what I will do as I already have everything.


 Me too. But let me caution you: one guy said he burned a whole NW off his hairline using Cet that didn't grow back (not sure if he was using the right vehicle, nor do I think he stayed with it long enough to recover what he shed). But seeing as how you're on some other stuff, I'd wait until we get some more positive reports before adding it, honestly. One or two dudes claiming regrowth is great news, but it's by no means conclusive. We need like 20 people with pics over a year long period. I'd stick with your current regimen until we get more good news. Just lookin out for you man.

----------


## eqvist

It would be interesting if we had people on fin and minox adding this!

----------


## Conpecia

I'm bumping this because someone brought up PGD2 blockers (which CET is) on ************ forums and four or five guys immediately responded that CET has stopped their hairloss. These guys have been on CET for something like 8-9 months by now, I remember when they first started way back in October/November of last year. The PGD2 theory seems more and more legitimate. Also, for those worried about indo/chromo sides, CET may be a safer alternative. And it's MUCH cheaper. 

The thread:

http://www.*****************/interact...-pdg2-blockers

----------


## thechamp

So we just bang a few Zyrtec tablets in to minoxdil?, also does everyone get a shed on cet?

----------


## KO1

I don't think CET is a PGD2 blocker.

----------


## KO1

What has been disappointing to me is the lack of good results reported by Ramatroban users. As you know, it is a CRTH2 antagonist, so it should be better than Indo/Cromo...but people are reporting "stops shedding" on Indo but nothing on Rambo...

----------


## Pentarou

The lack of success with CRTH2 blockers has been a real downer, IMO. There must be a huge vital piece in the puzzle missing. Or Cotsatelis was trolling us.

----------


## walrus

> I don't think CET is a PGD2 blocker.


 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2469708




> Histamine release was not altered by cetirizine treatment, but prostaglandin D2 (PGD2) production, which peaked at 3 to 5 hours, was clearly reduced by cetirizine treatment, being lower at all time points during the reaction


 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7741033




> Cetirizine (0.1-10 micrograms/ml) enhanced PGE2 release by resting human monocytes

----------


## KO1

^Fascinating, I take that back then.

----------


## thechamp

How are people getting results with cet ??

----------


## justeone

is this treatment working at all?

----------


## thechamp

Apparently people have results mixing cet with minoxidil

----------


## rdawg

Because CET is so cheap and seemingly so safe, I'm actually gonna hop on the bandwagon.

Ive been on Min for years now and just hit one year on FIN with simply maintanence, so i'm down to try out something new! 

10mg for every 1ml right?

----------


## KO1

I wish we could know which is the better pathway - inhibit production of prostaglandins with Cet, or inhibit the specific receptor with Rambo.

----------


## thechamp

I'm going to get on fin for a month gain weight get my hair back then add cet and get off fin wonder if cet will keep fin hairs?

----------


## rdawg

> I wish we could know which is the better pathway - inhibit production of prostaglandins with Cet, or inhibit the specific receptor with Rambo.


 from what ive read on HLH rambo isnt doing much but it is early.

Only indo/cromo and CET have had solid results at least so far.

The theory i think has merit to it for sure, but I dont think its PGD2 alone that will help us, we're missing the other piece of the puzzle(PGE2 promotion? Wounding?) something else.

----------


## KO1

Cet according to the poster above me, increases PGE2 so that's good.


Wounding is a totally separate pathway, but PGD2 seems to hurt wounding induced neogenesis.

----------


## KO1

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2469708
> 
> 
> 
> and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7741033


 *Boldy's response:

PGD2 is produced by H-pgds and non ezymic L-pgds. In aga its produced by elaveted L-pgds (cots).

Histamine antagonists, probably act on mast cells, and reduce H-pgds(hematopoietic prostaglandin D synthase).
*




> PGD2 in hair follicles is not caused by HPGDS - hematopoietic prostaglandin D synthase BUT, by LPGDS lipocalin pgds.
> 
> Source? read the 22 march study of DR. cots. LPGds levels are highly elevated....
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm...bin/nihms366359f2.jpg
> 
> 
> Increased PGD2 pathway activity in balding scalp of men with AGA. (A) Expression of lipocalin-type PTGDS mRNA in bald versus haired scalp, as tested by qPCR. Data are means &#177; SEM (n = 4). (B and C) The amount of PTGDS protein in paired bald (B) and haired (H) scalps (n = 4), as shown by Western blotting with Ponceau stain used for verification of equal loading (B) and its quantitation as normalized to haired scalp (C). Data are means &#177; SEM. (D) PGD2 production in bald scalp, as tested by ELISA. Data are means &#177; SEM (n = 3). (E and F) Fold change in PGD2 (n = 17), 15-dPGJ2) (n = 7), and PGE2 (n = 17) expression in bald scalp compared to haired scalp (E). Total prostaglandin content is quantified in (F). Data are means &#177; SEM. *P < 0.05; **P < 0.01. In (F), P value compares haired versus bald samples for each prostaglandin.

----------


## thechamp

I hope cet does nearly half as much as fin

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys is it possible for a topical to be made like all in one, like to have cetirizine (pgd2) +an antiandrogen like cb + a growth stim like nanoxidil... it would be miracle product, compide that with  a niz shampoo and some anti dht styling gel product with aloe and there you go....

can sth like that be made with the current tech?

----------


## thechamp

> guys is it possible for a topical to be made like all in one, like to have cetirizine (pgd2) +an antiandrogen like cb + a growth stim like nanoxidil... it would be miracle product, compide that with  a niz shampoo and some anti dht styling gel product with aloe and there you go....
> 
> can sth like that be made with the current tech?


 Does nanoxidil work?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i havent seen any clinical data but considering it is the same but smaller molecule as minox i would assume yes.


> Does nanoxidil work?

----------


## thechamp

If nanoxidil does work why does every one still use minoxdil then

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i really dont know if it works for sure  but i also dont know why the masses stick to ancient drugs too

----------


## Pentarou

> i really dont know if it works for sure  but i also dont know why the masses stick to ancient drugs too


 Because they're cheaper, genericised and have much more evidence behind them. I know what you mean though, the Big 3 are practically palaeolithic.

----------


## thechamp

liposome technology with cet would be awsome

----------


## rdawg

Gonna get on this stuff early next week guys, I'll keep track with pictures and such! 

been on Fin for over a year time to start something new(havent had side effects, but I only maintained, which still leaves me as a NW3 diffused thinner!)

----------


## rbrown

So guys what are the latest updates on cetrizine?Any success stories from this forum?The member Pate stopped updating in december 2012. He wasn't having any regrowth at the time.

----------


## KO1

I'm not sure we should see success on it. As Boldy posted, does not inhibit the correct mast cell population, however, it does increase PGE2 apparently, which could be the cause of some results.

But we should then get PGE2.

----------


## the_dude78

> So guys what are the latest updates on cetrizine?Any success stories from this forum?The member Pate stopped updating in december 2012. He wasn't having any regrowth at the time.


 No re-growth. But is there any chance it may at least stop the shedding?

----------


## rdawg

> I'm not sure we should see success on it. As Boldy posted, does not inhibit the correct mast cell population, however, it does increase PGE2 apparently, which could be the cause of some results.
> 
> But we should then get PGE2.


 I believe it lowers PGD2 production as well as increasing PGE2 slightly.

from early results this and INDO/Cromo seem to be doing a better job than an actual PGD2 blocker in ramatroban or whatever it is.

We want to lower PGD2 but we also cant inhibit PGE2, CET has gotten some results in people(some minor regrowth, most maintain) so it is doing something, but there is more to the puzzle.

IMO with it being so cheap and safe, it's the best gray market experiment out there, I mean you could try it out for a few months for like 20 bucks!

----------


## Avacfc

Anyone think cet in conjunction with ru would be a good shout?

----------


## KO1

> I believe it lowers PGD2 production as well as increasing PGE2 slightly.
> 
> from early results this and INDO/Cromo seem to be doing a better job than an actual PGD2 blocker in ramatroban or whatever it is.
> 
> We want to lower PGD2 but we also cant inhibit PGE2, CET has gotten some results in people(some minor regrowth, most maintain) so it is doing something, but there is more to the puzzle.
> 
> IMO with it being so cheap and safe, it's the best gray market experiment out there, I mean you could try it out for a few months for like 20 bucks!


 Yes, but the type of mast cells it reduces are not the ones found near the HF...so in the context of the HF it would not be of use. Boldy explains it better than me, so u should read his post.

----------


## thechamp

I wish cet was half as effective as fin

----------


## Chromeo

Try it out, it's pretty good.

----------


## Hairismylife

> I'm not sure we should see success on it. As Boldy posted, does not inhibit the correct mast cell population, however, it does increase PGE2 apparently, which could be the cause of some results.
> 
> But we should then get PGE2.


 How about indo/chromo/ramatroban???

----------


## thechamp

Updates on cet ??

----------


## doke

> I believe it lowers PGD2 production as well as increasing PGE2 slightly.
> 
> from early results this and INDO/Cromo seem to be doing a better job than an actual PGD2 blocker in ramatroban or whatever it is.
> 
> We want to lower PGD2 but we also cant inhibit PGE2, CET has gotten some results in people(some minor regrowth, most maintain) so it is doing something, but there is more to the puzzle.
> 
> IMO with it being so cheap and safe, it's the best gray market experiment out there, I mean you could try it out for a few months for like 20 bucks!


 hi are you also using anything else wit indo/chr and what results and how long using.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

and what's the vehicle for this stuff? i heard water but that sounds retarded

----------


## thechamp

Updates on cet anything exciting?

----------


## chimera

> Updates on cet anything exciting?


 I think you won't hear anymore updates from cet. I'm mean, people who have been on cet for months say it helps reducing hair loss (some even say it stopped it), but almost nobody had regrowth. Some users, like baldnesssadness from *** or minox86 from the german forum did get regrowth, they even posted some pics, but the regrowth never got anymore impressive, it just stopped, it stayed there, but it did not got any bigger. And that's it, it is not getting forward, so you probably won't hear updates (Still, if it really reduced their loss I think that's important, but we still have no way to prove it)

----------


## Chromeo

Halting loss alone is huge. I wouldn't be so sure that you won't hear any more about it...there could still be more effective results with a different vehicle / dosage. We really don't know as of yet, everyone pretty much tried the same thing.

----------


## Conpecia

> Halting loss alone is huge. I wouldn't be so sure that you won't hear any more about it...there could still be more effective results with a different vehicle / dosage. We really don't know as of yet, everyone pretty much tried the same thing.


 This. 

10char

----------


## JDW

> Halting loss alone is huge. I wouldn't be so sure that you won't hear any more about it...there could still be more effective results with a different vehicle / dosage. We really don't know as of yet, everyone pretty much tried the same thing.


 
Exactly, good post. 
I think too often people see stopping loss as not successful, but as you say it's massive achievement

----------


## bigentries

> Exactly, good post. 
> I think too often people see stopping loss as not successful, but as you say it's massive achievement


 It is a massive achievement, if you can prove it. To be frank, we will never be able to prove if an experimental treatment just stops hair loss

We would need to have a big enough control group to see if the "halting" is way superior than the average person that isn't being treated.

Even in controlled trials, some men treated with placebo end up gaining some hair. It looks like hair counts are very prone to error

----------


## DesperateOne

I have read a lot about this stuff and some good and some bad. I already have a small bottle of 14 caps in front of me but don't know if I should take the plunge. 

Does anyone know if this is helping people significantly?

----------


## rdawg

> I have read a lot about this stuff and some good and some bad. I already have a small bottle of 14 caps in front of me but don't know if I should take the plunge. 
> 
> Does anyone know if this is helping people significantly?


 No harm in trying, it's apparently very safe and very easy to make.

I plan on taking the plunge soon as well just trying out the dermaroller right now.

----------


## hellouser

Anyone know what the correct (or working) vehicle for Cetirizine is? I'd like to try it out on a bald patch on my temple along with dermarolling/wounding and minoxidil. It'd be interesting to see what happens when characteristics of the thinning hair follicle more or less match those of non thinning (or DHT free). I remember seeing a LOT of small hairs on some members in slick bald areas, but they didn't turn terminal nor did they grow, but they DID show up significantly after Cet was applied. Perhaps WNT and FGF-9 could be the missing link?

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## DesperateOne

> Anyone know what the correct (or working) vehicle for Cetirizine is? I'd like to try it out on a bald patch on my temple along with dermarolling/wounding and minoxidil. It'd be interesting to see what happens when characteristics of the thinning hair follicle more or less match those of non thinning (or DHT free). I remember seeing a LOT of small hairs on some members in slick bald areas, but they didn't turn terminal nor did they grow, but they DID show up significantly after Cet was applied. Perhaps WNT and FGF-9 could be the missing link?


 Well I read almost all the German forum about Cet and the ones that mixed it with alcohol got really bad results. Then I read stories on hairlosshelp and it seems that the best responders just mix it in water, I know it sounds weird but if it works well, you really can't argue with success. So I will be mixing it with water and applying it as well, but I will also add some Jojoba oil for better absorption with the derma roller as well. Keeping my fingers crossed.

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## hellouser

> Well I read almost all the German forum about Cet and the ones that mixed it with alcohol got really bad results. Then I read stories on hairlosshelp and it seems that the best responders just mix it in water, I know it sounds weird but if it works well, you really can't argue with success. So I will be mixing it with water and applying it as well, but I will also add some Jojoba oil for better absorption with the derma roller as well. Keeping my fingers crossed.


 Try it on a bald area first and see if little vellus hairs sprout, if thats the case it should probably mean its working for you as either halting or causing regrowth to some degree.

However, did they really just dissolve the pills in water and apply it? Doesnt water NOT penetrate skin? I mean, if it doesnt, how else could CET get to the follicle?

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## DesperateOne

> Try it on a bald area first and see if little vellus hairs sprout, if thats the case it should probably mean its working for you as either halting or causing regrowth to some degree.
> 
> However, did they really just dissolve the pills in water and apply it? Doesnt water NOT penetrate skin? I mean, if it doesn't, how else could CET get to the follicle?


 I don't really know, I will have to re-read some of it to make sure. But I know that at least they put it in water to dissolve first. I suppose it does make sense that you wouldn't be able to absorb it with only water.

Anyways, I am losing a lot of hope, I don't know how or if it's even possible but I am pretty sure that I lost one full norwood level in just one month. I had lost some hair in the past due to shedding, but I don't this much hair is normal.

I went to the doctor the other day to get a prescription fro propecia and he said that I might have hyperthyroidism. So on Monday I will get the test done and hopefully I do have that and get some hair back. The bad thing is that I am losing hair on the sides and also in the back where it is suppose to be DHT resistant, either way, I will have to just buzz it 0 since it looks like I have cancer, I hate it, so depressed.

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## DesperateOne

But for sure if it works on me I will let people know, together with trial and error is the only way we're going to beat this horrible disease.

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## Shammon20

DesperateOne, any results?

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## Pentarou

> DesperateOne, any results?


 I can't speak for him, but I tried topical cetirizine myself when that was briefly popular on the forums and it made me shed hair for a while but never regrew anything.

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## Gjm127

Guys, I'm sorry for bumping this old thread back up but something interesting has been bugging me for the past 2 weeks.

I've been taking Zyrtec (Cetirizine 10mg) pills orally every morning for the past 1.5 years and I suddenly stopped using it 2 weeks ago because I realized that my body was having withdrawal effects (unbearable nightmare of complete body itches including major scalp itches) every time I skipped a day and didn't want my body to depend on a drug this much. So now I'm trying to tapper off by gradually decreasing the dosage and the time gap between pills. Currently I'm at a 1/32th pill every 3 days, this shows how bad my body's become dependant. I'm staying away from my cat as much as possible for the time being (that's my allergy). I'm 23 years old by the way, NW 2.5/3 ever since I'm 20 and now slowly losing density. Also, while on Zyrtec for the past 1.5 years, I did feel like my hair loss had slightly decreased, but nothing major... maybe, not sure.

However, what's interesting is that I realized that my hair is much less dense in the front now and that my temples have receded inwards towards the upper frontal area. I went into the shower last night and noticed not a single hair shed in the tub (which to me is ridiculous, I always used to shed like 100 hairs every day). It's worth mentioning that, while trying to gradually stop the pill, my body itching (scalp included) gets worse with time until I take the dose and when I do, all itching stops, of course including scalp.

For the past 2 weeks that I've been trying to get off the drug, I've been itching my entire body including my scalp (as mentioned above), but when I try to watch for shedding while my scalp itches, I don't see any hair fall out. 

I'm wondering if I'm not seeing any hair fall out because all the ones that were "saved, maintained" by Zyrtec previously had been lost and only the tough ones remained? OR if now that I'm off Zyrtec, the lost hairs were the ones that were targeted and have now shed to make way back for stronger ones.

Am I imagining that my hair loss has worsened because I'm stopping Zyrtec? Am I making a huge mistake getting off Zyrtec? Could it do this much difference by taking it orally?

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