# Other Discussions > Bodybuilding / Fitness / Nutrition >  SARMs. Will they cause hair loss?

## Aames

I'm making this topic primarily for WarLord. I can't write on his wall and I have no other way of talking to him. WarLord, if you're reading this, can you please tell me what you know? You said they destroyed your life, didn't you? What happened? I'm interested in trying S4 now that I have a source. 

If any of you other guys know about them, please feel free to school me. It would be greatly appreciated.

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## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i v heard of stories loosing eye sight and cant drive at night, stay away

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## Aames

> i v heard of stories loosing eye sight and cant drive at night, stay away


 Are you talking permanent loss of eye sight? I'll endure anything as long as it is temporary/reversible.

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## Kayman

> Are you talking permanent loss of eye sight? I'll endure anything as long as it is temporary/reversible.


 I'm not so sure you should mess around with your eyes, in my opinion messing with your eyes in exchange for quick muscle growth is a trade off I wouldn't be willing to make.
Check out this video on youtube, I usually go to this guys channel when I have training questions, he gives his account on his personal experience of steroid use, I enjoy his videos because he's a very level headed logical thinking guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOm89QUchk

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## Aames

> I'm not so sure you should mess around with your eyes, in my opinion messing with your eyes in exchange for quick muscle growth is a trade off I wouldn't be willing to make.
> Check out this video on youtube, I usually go to this guys channel when I have training questions, he gives his account on his personal experience of steroid use, I enjoy his videos because he's a very level headed logical thinking guy.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOm89QUchk


 Thanks for the link, brah. I agree with you but if the eyesight troubles don't persist after discontinuing use, I wouldn't be too worried.

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## WarLord

> I'm making this topic primarily for WarLord. I can't write on his wall and I have no other way of talking to him. WarLord, if you're reading this, can you please tell me what you know? You said they destroyed your life, didn't you? What happened? I'm interested in trying S4 now that I have a source. 
> 
> If any of you other guys know about them, please feel free to school me. It would be greatly appreciated.


 Well, I must illuminate it a bit: First of all, I think that SARMs are not as revolutionary as some people think. They are basically comparable with the mildest steroids like oxandrolone and nandrolone. To sum up my experience:

S4 (Andarine): Can be used primarily for strength endurance (incredible!), less for strength. Usually, the effective dosage is around 50 mg/day. The only side effect that I am aware of is the worsened night vision. It can be annoying, but it is not dangerous. 

Ostarine: Is used for strength at lower doses than S4, usually 15-25 mg/day or so. But personally, I noticed that this drug is pretty hepatotoxic. My liver enzymes were always through the roof. And I was taking only 10-15 mg/day! Certainly, this is not a drug that I would like, although one of its positive effects is high libido. The strength increase was not much impressive either, at least at the doses I was taking. (And I was combining it with S4).

An interesting thing is that taking SARMs (Ostarine and S4 together) with finasteride and minoxidil probably initiated a sudden hair regrowth in me (in August 2012). I really have no other explanation: I added finasteride to my minoxidil regime in late June 2012, hoping that I would achieve some regrowth in temples. At the beginning of July, I started to use SARMs, and one month later, I was already experiencing a very promising regrowth. But when I stopped using SARMs (in late August 2012), the regrowth quickly stopped. What is worse, two months later (in late October 2012), I started to suffer from incessant shedding in my temples. At first I thought that it was only a temporary "finasteride shed", but it seems that it wasn't, because the lost hair still hasn't regrown back. In other words, my hair loss began to exacerbate after long 17 years again - and I can tell you that the last winter was the worst period of my life. My thoughts were sometimes borderline suicidal. 

I suspect that the quitting of SARMs must have caused some negative reaction in my body. Perhaps, my androgen receptors were upregulated. I don't know. It's really mindboggling, because before this incident, I was using minoxidil alone successfully for 16,5 years, and I was not experiencing any problems even on relatively harsh steroids like stanozolol. But suddenly, I couldn't stop my hair loss with minoxidil+finasteride!!! Fortunately, I lost patience very early and I jumped on dutasteride - which works excellently!

With regard to this mysterious renewal of my hairloss, I will never touch SARMs again.

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## Aames

Thanks for posting your experience, WarLord. I'm sorry to hear your misfortune. I'm glad that you have halted your loss again with duta. By the sounds of it, I should probably stay away. I just hate being natty, brah. It will be years before I have a decent physique.

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## WarLord

> Thanks for posting your experience, WarLord. I'm sorry to hear your misfortune. I'm glad that you have halted your loss again with duta. By the sounds of it, I should probably stay away. I just hate being natty, brah. It will be years before I have a decent physique.


 I wouldn't want to discourage you from SARMs. But that what I said had really happened, although in theory it shouldn't be possible, and it remains a big unexplained mystery for me. 

In any case, the primary reason of this winter shed was a relatively high DHT level in my body: 25-32 ng/dl. This is low, when viewed in the context of the normal DHT range in adult men (30-85 ng/dl), but about twice higher than in men on finasteride. Unfortunately, I don't know my initial DHT levels before the start of finasteride. I would say that finasteride must have lowered it, but apparently not too effectively. It basically did nothing.

It is known that SARMs bind competetively to androgen receptors and work as antagonists of DHT. Hence they *decrease androgenic activity in the body*. This is one of their most beneficial effects in comparison with traditionally used steroids. I saw studies done in lab rats, where Ostarine and S4 decreased prostate weight approximately by 20%, which is roughly one half of the effect seen in finasteride. Another SARMs, S1, even surpassed finasteride in this regard, but it is a very weak anabolic. 

With regard to the weaker effect of Ostarine and S4 on prostate weight, I supposed that they would compromise the efficiacy of finasteride, but it seems that the opposite was true, probably because they work by different mechanisms. My testosterone levels in late July were actually only 50 ng/dl (roughly 10% of the normal level), so DHT must have been very low as well and finasteride must have suppressed these residual DHT levels by more than 50%. In short, I had very low testosterone levels and virtually zero DHT, and those slightly androgenic SARMs occupied my androgen receptors. This may explain the sudden explosive regrowth along my hairline. But what happened after quitting SARMs... That's utterly baffling for me...

One could understand that the benefits of this fin+SARMs combo would disappear, but why should my hairloss exacerbate after 16+ years again? Why should it suddenly turn by 180 degrees, within mere 2 months?! It's simply perplexing. And consider that I was taking SARMs (S4) even before, as a sort of PCT after steroid cycles, but I have never experienced any problems. Perhaps, my androgen receptors were really upregulated during the use of fin+SARMs, and when I quitted SARMs, they were shocked by the rapid increase of DHT. In any case, as I said, this wouldn't happen, if fin did its job well. Obviously, it did virtually nothing. So you could avoid this unpleasant experience very easily, by sufficiently high doses of dut. But it depends entirely on you, if you want to undertake this risk.

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## WarLord

And as for the use of other anabolic drugs, you probably know that with dut in your veins, you can't use virtually anything. 

There are two steroids that don't exacerbate hairloss: Oxandrolone and nandrolone. But in the case of oxandrolone, you must reckon with that this drug won't increase androgenic activity in your body above the normal level, which is a "hairloss level". You can use oxandrolone with minoxidil, because the androgenic stimulus that minoxidil counterbalances will remain the same. Your hair won't feel any change. However, 5-AR blockers will save you only from DHT, not from other androgens. Therefore, the androgenic attack on your follicles will be similar to the state like if you were taking no 5-AR blocker. It is true that on oxandrolone, it may not be too dramatic, but I wouldn't risk it. In fact, after the dreadful winter experience, I sold all my stores of oxandrolone powder to my friend. LOL

Nandrolone is probably an even better choice for hairloss sufferers, because it is converted by the 5-AR enzyme into a much less potent steroid. However, if you take a 5-AR blocker, you will prevent this conversion, which will almost certainly lead to a disaster. 

So, what to do? It seems that science offers a new solution: Ursolic acid. It was tested very successfully in lab rats as an anabolic with excellent fat-burning properties. But as a sports supplement (sold as "Ursobolic"), I think that it has rather failed so far. Nevertheless, the dosages used in rats would correspond to ca. 1.5 gram/day in humans. And the dosages recommended by the producer of Ursobolic are only 0.5-1 g/day. Furthermore, Ursobolic is very expensive. Therefore, I ordered ursolic acid from China, for a much smaller price. But I haven't used it yet. Perhaps during this summer. One interesting thing on ursolic acid is the fact that it has certain benefits with regard to the stimulation of hair growth. Actually, I have already read at least two internet reports about a sudden hair regrowth during the use of Ursobolic.   
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ic-log-13.html

Well, that's all I can offer to you. I am not aware of any other anabolic drug that you could use - except IGF-1 and the growth hormone. But these are pretty expensive drugs and the probability that you will buy a fake is very high. In fact, the reality is such that you can quite safely order steroids from China, but a growth hormone can easily turn out to be fake, even if you ordered it from your reliable steroid supplier.

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## Aames

WarLord, you really seem to know a lot about this. Thank you for sharing this information with me. At the end of the day, I would rather be a stick with a full head of hair so it probably isn't worth the risk for me to even use the gentlest of steroids. I guess I will just be patient and who knows? Maybe I will have good results now that I have learned a lot more about nutrition and proper lifting. Be sure to let us know how your experiences with ursolic acid go.

What's your current regimen? Has your loss completely stopped again with the addition of duta? Did you ever order duta powder from Kane? I was considering adding another 0.5mg topically and I would likely get it from him or just squeeze out a gel cap.

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## Kayman

> Thanks for posting your experience, WarLord. I'm sorry to hear your misfortune. I'm glad that you have halted your loss again with duta. By the sounds of it, I should probably stay away. I just hate being natty, brah. It will be years before I have a decent physique.


 Come on man natty isn't so bad, lets say you put on 1b a month bulking, at the end of 12 months you cut, 6lbs of that weight gain was muscle, repeat twice, 2 years or so and you got 12lbs, that's a whole lot of muscle right there man. Okay sure it's not the 3 months that roids will do it in, but 2 years isn't so bad.
I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to find a source. There was a gym near me that had a rep for it and thus people would join it for said reason but it cleaned itself up over that past couple of years.

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## WarLord

> WarLord, you really seem to know a lot about this. Thank you for sharing this information with me. At the end of the day, I would rather be a stick with a full head of hair so it probably isn't worth the risk for me to even use the gentlest of steroids. I guess I will just be patient and who knows? Maybe I will have good results now that I have learned a lot more about nutrition and proper lifting. Be sure to let us know how your experiences with ursolic acid go.
> 
> What's your current regimen? Has your loss completely stopped again with the addition of duta? Did you ever order duta powder from Kane? I was considering adding another 0.5mg topically and I would likely get it from him or just squeeze out a gel cap.


 I also reconsidered my priorities. I won't risk any anabolic drugs anymore. I realized that I couldn't handle being bald. I would get mad. 

And as for my current situation, I said that my hairloss had stopped ca. 1 month after the addition of Avodart (during March). I began with very low dosages, though - 0.5 mg every 4 days. After 5 weeks, I was already using 0.5 mg EOD. And in mid April, I further increased my dosage up to 0.375 mg/day (1.5 mg every 4 days). Since late May I have been taking 0.375 mg Avodart/day+0.375 mg dutasteride powder/day. This, together with 1.25 mg fin/day, would roughly correspond to 0.85 mg dut/day. But I am still not sure about the identity of the powder and I sent it to a lab. 

In any case, my current DHT levels (from late May) are very low - 7.3 ng/dl. This is 4-times lower than my DHT levels on finasteride, and exactly what you would expect in an average dutasteride user. I suppose that if the powder is legit, DHT will drop even deeper. Other hormones are O.K.: Moderate levels of testosterone, low estradiol. So I am really not afraid of gyno.

I started to experience some regrowth in late May, but so far it's been rather pathetic. If I am not satisfied, I will futher increase my dutasteride dosage and perhaps I will also add topical RU. If the dutasteride powder is legit, my supplies are virtually unlimited.

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## Aames

> Come on man natty isn't so bad, lets say you put on 1b a month bulking, at the end of 12 months you cut, 6lbs of that weight gain was muscle, repeat twice, 2 years or so and you got 12lbs, that's a whole lot of muscle right there man. Okay sure it's not the 3 months that roids will do it in, but 2 years isn't so bad.
> I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to find a source. There was a gym near me that had a rep for it and thus people would join it for said reason but it cleaned itself up over that past couple of years.


 Agh I know, brah. Just such a long road ahead. 




> I also reconsidered my priorities. I won't risk any anabolic drugs anymore. I realized that I couldn't handle being bald. I would get mad. 
> 
> And as for my current situation, I said that my hairloss had stopped ca. 1 month after the addition of Avodart (during March). I began with very low dosages, though - 0.5 mg every 4 days. After 5 weeks, I was already using 0.5 mg EOD. And in mid April, I further increased my dosage up to 0.375 mg/day (1.5 mg every 4 days). Since late May I have been taking 0.375 mg Avodart/day+0.375 mg dutasteride powder/day. This, together with 1.25 mg fin/day, would roughly correspond to 0.85 mg dut/day. But I am still not sure about the identity of the powder and I sent it to a lab. 
> 
> In any case, my current DHT levels (from late May) are very low - 7.3 ng/dl. This is 4-times lower than my DHT levels on finasteride, and exactly what you would expect in an average dutasteride user. I suppose that if the powder is legit, DHT will drop even deeper. Other hormones are O.K.: Moderate levels of testosterone, low estradiol. So I am really not afraid of gyno.
> 
> I started to experience some regrowth in late May, but so far it's been rather pathetic. If I am not satisfied, I will futher increase my dutasteride dosage and perhaps I will also add topical RU. If the dutasteride powder is legit, my supplies are virtually unlimited.


 Excellent. I'm glad to see you have everything back under control. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with me. One final question: do you think ephedrine has any implications in hair loss? A google search finds a lot of paranoia but it is like that for almost any drug. If so, would any hair lost grow back? I swear I notice increased shedding when on it but it could just be my imagination. It really helps with my appetite and energy whilst cutting.

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## Aames

Also, thoughts on hair loss from severe dieting? As long as the follicles have not succumbed to DHT, it should grow back, yes?

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## WarLord

> Agh I know, brah. Just such a long road ahead. 
> 
> 
> Excellent. I'm glad to see you have everything back under control. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with me. One final question: do you think ephedrine has any implications in hair loss? A google search finds a lot of paranoia but it is like that for almost any drug. If so, would any hair lost grow back? I swear I notice increased shedding when on it but it could just be my imagination. It really helps with my appetite and energy whilst cutting.


 As for ephedrine and hairloss, I won't help you. I don't know, how ephedrine could exacerbate hair loss, but I am really not acquianted with this topic.

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## Aames

> As for ephedrine and hairloss, I won't help you. I don't know, how ephedrine could exacerbate hair loss, but I am really not acquianted with this topic.


 Fair enough, man. Thanks again. I've read nothing but theories. Some speculate that since it is so structurally similar to amphetamines, it could be a possibility. It also may restrict blood flow to the scalp. Probably not worth the risk at the end of the day. I'm going to try to avoid all medications apart from duta and fin from now on.

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## UK_

Didnt they stop the development of Andarine (S4) because it induced serious occular side effects?

I remember reading about it a few years back.  These drugs are still in the investigational stages right?  If so, how are you guys getting your hands on them?

Black market? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## WarLord

> Didnt they stop the development of Andarine (S4) because it induced serious occular side effects?
> 
> I remember reading about it a few years back.  These drugs are still in the investigational stages right?  If so, how are you guys getting your hands on them?
> 
> Black market?


 Google "Uniquemicals". The stuff is cheap and legit (I ordered from there already twice). But I wonder, why they sell such a cancerogenic stuff like GW501516. They probably have little responsibility.

Yes, Andarine has those "ocular side effects". But they are only temporary. The drug probably interacts with receptors in the eyes. 

In general, Andarine rather increases strength endurance (and damn significantly!), while Ostarine is for strength.

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## verver

What about Turinabol, i read somewhere that it's androgenic activity is nearly 0 and that it's anabolic activity is similar to testosterone

anyone had used it  ?

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## UK_

> Google "Uniquemicals". The stuff is cheap and legit (I ordered from there already twice). But I wonder, why they sell such a cancerogenic stuff like GW501516. They probably have little responsibility.
> 
> Yes, Andarine has those "ocular side effects". But they are only temporary. The drug probably interacts with receptors in the eyes. 
> 
> In general, Andarine rather increases strength endurance (and damn significantly!), while Ostarine is for strength.


 GW501516 was administered to rats who were predisposed to contract cancer,  it showed to rapidly increase the size of tumours.

That effect however does occur with a number of other well-known synthetic hormonal modulators.  Makes you wonder though of the obvious safety implications of these "research chemicals".

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## UK_

@WarLord, your comment makes me think twice about using CB.

Might wait until it's atleast approved for acne which should be in 2 years.

Drugs that have an effect on genes are always going to be incredibly risky, we've had 3.8 billion years of field testing, engineering a better human being is going to be the greatest achievement of human kind given how complex biology is.  Which is also why I think we should all start _"passing the collection plate"_ for research into human biology.

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## fitnessisgood4u

Duta ...I will try it and feed back to you guys. Anyone know who  the best supplier of this is ?

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## lilpauly

no it will not cause hairloss!

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## fitnessisgood4u

Thanks for that warning. Has anybody else heard this?

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## lilpauly

> What about Turinabol, i read somewhere that it's androgenic activity is nearly 0 and that it's anabolic activity is similar to testosterone
> 
> anyone had used it  ?


 Yes I have taking it ! Also halo extreme is tbol in prohormone form

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## WarLord

> What about Turinabol, i read somewhere that it's androgenic activity is nearly 0 and that it's anabolic activity is similar to testosterone
> 
> anyone had used it  ?


 Turinabol was a failure of the GDR system. It explains, why they had success mostly with women only. I was taking as much as 75 mg/day - and it did virtually nothing. Except that I felt my nipples (estrogen!).

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## CS41XYZ

> i v heard of stories loosing eye sight and cant drive at night, stay away


 Where have you heard these stories? It's a dubious claim to make the following argument. Here is the formula "I've heard" + "add in claim" = truth (when it doesn't really count as even anecdotal evidence.

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## CS41XYZ

> Thanks for the link, brah. I agree with you but if the eyesight troubles don't persist after discontinuing use, I wouldn't be too worried.


 I think in this case both the poster and the man in the link that was sent to YouTube are genuine in their concern for people and also their belief in what they say. But this is the case of one man using self anecdotal evidence a d extrapolating it into an indisputable cause and effect. To show how this works I could turn the argument into stating that poor eye sight leads to increased SARMs use. 

Basically just because Events A and B happen together does not mean A and B have any connection to each other. What is a well known fact is that no matter what you do in life some people have flawed eyesight that will continue to get worse as time progresses. It's also an accepted fact that everyone will lose the ability to read without the aid of glasses as a natural and irreversible part of the aging process (if someone doesn't lose some eyesight with age than they contain a genetic mutation which in this case might seem to be an advantage where most genetic mutations cause more harm than good). So unless you read it in a medical journal and the article read has been heavily cited (which is the most relevant way to determine if there is a consensus in that field of experts) than I would approach a claim with a lot of skepticism.

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## CS41XYZ

> As for ephedrine and hairloss, I won't help you. I don't know, how ephedrine could exacerbate hair loss, but I am really not acquianted with this topic.


 The only pharmaceutical reason ephedrine could in theory contribute to hair loss would not be the hair loss related to male pattern baldness which I think this topic is being aimed at discussing in this case. 

For instance extreme stress can cause hair loss (literally go bald). Ephedrine could exacerbate the pronpblem by increasing anxiety in some people. I know I take adderall for ADHD and most stimulants have the opposite effect on me. But things like caffeine and ephedrine work differently and I feel those like anyone else. So have felt how they can cause anxiety where I haad previously only felt mildly anxious. (Note: effects on anxiety and energy levels vary greatly from individual to individual).

PS: this is a bit old of a thread but it still comes up on the first page of googling so people will inevitably still read this.

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## CS41XYZ

> @WarLord, your comment makes me think twice about using CB.
> 
> Might wait until it's atleast approved for acne which should be in 2 years.
> 
> Drugs that have an effect on genes are always going to be incredibly risky, we've had 3.8 billion years of field testing, engineering a better human being is going to be the greatest achievement of human kind given how complex biology is.  Which is also why I think we should all start _"passing the collection plate"_ for research into human biology.


 This is long but considering the statement it relates to there was no way around it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the third paragraph. What do you mean by "we'be had 3.8 billion years of field testing"? Are you referring to natural selection? I would first point out that multicellular life has only been around for approximately the last 500 million years. Which means before that most of Earth's history consists of algae, plankton, bacteria, etc. (and ones that aren't particularly complex unicellular life).

If you were to make a calendar where the last 13.8 billion years (approx age of universe) would fit into a 365 day per year calendar popularized by Carl Sagan (I don't know if he himself invented the comparison) than the universe began at 0000 01 January. The Milky Way Galaxy formed circa Match 16th. 

The Milly Way Galaxy first formed into the disk like galaxy we would recognize around May 12th. 

Our solar system formed September 2nd. Oldest known rock on a Earth would be from September 6th. First life formed On September 14th (recorded in fossil records anyway). But several theories suggest life may have formed several times on Earth only to go extinct before Earth became stable enough for it to not go extinct. First complex unicellular life began on Dec 5th. To make things easier here.

Date - first 
Gya - years ago in billions
Event - event that occurred 

14 Sep
4.1
"Remains of biotic life" found in 4.1 billion-year-old rocks in Western Australia.
21 Sep
3.8
First Life(Prokaryotes)
30 Sep
3.4
Photosynthesis
29 Oct
2.4
Oxygenation of Atmosphere
9 Nov
2
Complex Cells (Eukaryotes)
5 Dec
0.8
First Multicellular Life
7 Dec
0.67
Simple Animals
14 Dec
0.55
Arthropods (ancestors of insects, arachnids)
17 Dec
0.5
Fish and Proto-amphibians
20 Dec
0.45
Land Plants
21 Dec
0.4
Insects and Seeds
22 Dec
0.36
Amphibians
23 Dec
0.3
Reptiles
24 Dec
0.25
Permian-Triassic Extinction Event, 90% of Species Die Out
25 Dec
0.23
Dinosaurs
26 Dec
0.2
Mammals
27 Dec
0.15
Birds
28 Dec
0.13
Flowers
30 Dec, 06:24
0.065
CretaceousPaleogene extinction event, Non-avian Dinosaurs Die Out

Human ancestry

Date /time
mya - millions of years ago
Event

30 Dec
65
Primates
31 Dec, 06:05
15
Apes
31 Dec, 14:24
12.3
Hominids
31 Dec, 22:24
2.5
Primitive Humansand Stone Tools
31 Dec, 23:44
0.4
Domestication of Fire
31 Dec, 23:52
0.2
Anatomically Modern Humans
31 Dec, 23:55
0.11
Beginning of Most Recent Glacial Period
31 Dec, 23:58
0.035
Sculpture and Painting
31 Dec, 23:59:32
0.012
Agriculture

Recorded history begins

Date /time
kya  - thousands of years ago
Event

31 Dec, 23:59:33
12.0
End of the Ice Age
31 Dec, 23:59:41
8.3
Flooding of Doggerland
31 Dec, 23:59:46
6.0
Chalcolithic
31 Dec, 23:59:47
5.5
Early Bronze Age; Proto-writing; Building of Stonehenge Cursus
31 Dec, 23:59:48
5.0
First Dynasty of Egypt, Early Dynastic Period in Sumer, Beginning of Indus Valley Civilisation
31 Dec, 23:59:49
4.5
Alphabet, Akkadian Empire, Wheel
31 Dec, 23:59:51
4.0
Code of Hammurabi, Middle Kingdom of Egypt
31 Dec, 23:59:52
3.5
Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age; Minoan eruption
31 Dec, 23:59:53
3.0
Iron Age; Beginning of Classical Antiquity
31 Dec, 23:59:54
2.5
Buddha, Mahavira, Zoroaster, Confucius, Qin Dynasty, Classical Greece, Ashokan Empire, Vedas Completed, Euclidean geometry, ArchimedeanPhysics, Roman Republic
31 Dec, 23:59:55
2.0
Ptolemaic astronomy, Roman Empire, Christ, Invention of Numeral 0, Gupta Empire
31 Dec, 23:59:56
1.5
Muhammad, Maya civilization, Song Dynasty, Rise of Byzantine Empire
31 Dec, 23:59:58
1.0
Mongol Empire, Maratha Empire, Crusades, Christopher Columbus Voyages to the Americas, Renaissance in Europe, Classical Music to the Time of Johann Sebastian Bach

Modern Era (about last 500 years) would fall on 23:59:59

So drugs that target specific genes are so new that they simply would not register on this scale in a way that would be comprehendible. There is no history to base on whether drugs targeting certain genes will always be incredibly risky (or to even say they are incredibly risky now). 

Engineering better humans has already been taking place for thousands of years. Until very, very recently propagation of the species was based on survival of the fittest (not in an animalistic way). But modern medicine did not exist until the last 125 years or so. Before that only human beings that could compete in the world to just survive would make it to the age of reproduction. Hence until modern medicine arrived humans a have always been engineering ourselves to ever more perfected beings. We've been doing so even more with other species of fauna and flora to produce the best food sources through breeding programs. The only difference now is we have a real possibility to do these things in a controlled manner and get the desired outcome instead of continually rolling the dice and hope the proper genes mix (why I never understood being against GMOs when it's been around for thousands of years).

The last comment you made is not necessary. I'm unaware of the country you life in or your educational background (and I don't mean any of this in a disparaging way but want to educate you in current affairs) but human biology is incredibly well known. The biggest obstacle to doing anything with that knowledge is from people who have ethical concerns about modifying humans or using things like embryonic stem cells, etc. the best estimates place our current technological level about 500-1500 years behind where we could be had religion not developed in the manner in which it did and separated itself from science sooner. But the human body is well known and there are lots of well known ways to improve it or treat diseased bodies. It just moves at a frustratingly slow pace in the western world due to Christianity playing a big part in people's ethical concerns. I see a huge paradigm shift occurring however in the nor so far future when other cultures which have no objections to the ethical concerns start to outdo the United States and Europe (im mainly looking at China and India). 

So I'm not sure what you meant by a lot of what you wrote. But hopefully this helps clear up quite a bit. Especially the part where about needing to study human biology more. There is so much known about human biology that it's imposssible for any one person to comprehend the amount of information known.

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## CS41XYZ

I'm not sure why you are using Finasteride and Dutasteride at the same time. Or why you wouldn't just taken .5mg dutasteride daily. Fin has a very short half life (like most drugs) to where it might work better splitting the dose twice a day. Dut has a half life which is insanely long compared to most drugs. It's 4-5 weeks long. So taking 1mg now means in one month you'll still have .5mg in you. Dut also lowers dht levels the same amount whether you take fin with it or not. The extra fin is a waste of money at best. 

Even if the powder you get is substantially cheaper and that's why you get it I would still just stick to .375mg dut a day. Some doctors prescribe it at .5mg EOD or every third day because it still builds up in he body with such a long half life. And it does more than fin. The fin you are taking realistically is simply not doing anything in your body except being there.

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## online

Anyone know who the best supplier of this is ?

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## markusbdc

Hey WarLord- I have noticed your posts and admire your knowledge of bodybuilding and the like and you seem a lot like me. I have dabbled in anabolics with great results but have had to halt them now due to my fear of further hairloss..Is the dutasteride still working for you?  I was on fin for almost 20 years when all of a sudden for no real reason my hairloss accelerated rapidly after all those years of nothing but a little thinning at the crown. Now its big thinning at the crown and formerly solid frontal hairline is getting raggedy. I switched to dut .5 mg daily about 1.5 years ago and like you it appeared to immediately halt my hairloss but not for long.... After a couple of months I began onec again to have some big shed days that are horribly unnerving and depressing. How my day will go is pretty much predicated on how much hair I shed that morning..I have noticed a very significant loss of libido on dut which fin did not seem to do to me but have soldiered on ...as to tell the truth I am very much like you in that regard and I would rather have no muscles and no libido than be bald which I find to be my own personal hell which could almost drive me to suicide..How are things going with you these days?

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## Anil Sharma

Make sure it is from a trusted source!

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## ravinderpalsingh

How critical is this for you? I mean have you ever been to some Doctor?

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## zacharyweiner63

All SARMs can cause hair loss.

The extent to which they can cause it is based upon their own inherent tissue selectivity and androgenicity.

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## mustang2

Sarms are not DHT converted. Is this statement incorrect?
Other steroids (not all) are.

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## howardssdunn

I think that everything that contains chemicals can cause real problems with health. So losing hair is possible.

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## mustang2

really?

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## WarLord

I understand that it's been 8 years since this thread started, but I decided to add an important piece of information that will clarify my old post: For a long time, it was a mindboggling mystery for me why I experienced (mild) hair regrowth on finasteride, S4, and Ostarine, but then my hair loss started again 2 months after the end of the cycle. I don't know why, but I ignored my notes that I was writing during the cycle. And they were the key to this "mystery". 

First of all, it is unlikely that SARMs were the trigger because once something hits your hair, it takes about 2 months until you notice the negative effect. (Hairs must enter a rest phase.) Therefore, I wouldn't be losing hair 4 months after the start of the cycle. That's too late.

When I looked at my notes, I wondered what I was doing two months before the hair loss started, i.e. at the end of the cycle (late August 2012). I realized that simultaneously with SARMs, I was taking anastrozol (anti-estrogen, testosterone booster), and my testosterone increased to normal (albeit below average) levels (325 ng/dl). This was not my normal practice because I was always taking anastrozole after the end of the cycle. The use of anastrozole together with SARMs was a fatal mistake because SARMs cause the decrease of SHBG (sex-hormone binding globulin) and increase the level of free androgens. In other words, my free androgen level must have been extraordinarily high (maybe something like 5-times higher than normally), and even the below-average level of testosterone and DHT was enough to cause a heavy shock to my hair. There is no other explanation. 

I should add that I ran three short (3-4-week) cycles with S4 during the last years (50-60 mg/day), but I have never experienced any problems. But I use 0.5 mg dutasteride daily, in addition to 5% minoxidil, and I always multiplied my dutasteride dosage during the cycles. My DHT levels are close to zero after 8 years, and the longer I take dutasteride, the more they decrease. Regrettably, I did not experience any marked regrowth of the lost hair (like other users of dutasteride and minoxidil), but still, I am Norwood2 and fine.

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## WarLord

> Sarms are not DHT converted. Is this statement incorrect?
> Other steroids (not all) are.


 Theoretically, it is really not possible to lose hair on SARMs. We know that laboratory studies are not 100% reliable because they once ascribed low androgenicity to stanozolol (which is certainly false). However, all the studies performed with SARMs are consistent and they show that SARMs used in moderate doses decrease prostate size, which means that they decrease the androgenic activity in the body. The decrease reaches about -20% in S4, -30% in Ligandrol, and if I remember well, Ostarine should be somewhere in the middle. What applies to the prostate should apply even to hair. Therefore, I am highly skeptical with regard to the claims that "Ligandrol killed my hair" etc. When you read these fearmongering comments, you will often notice that they are nonsensical because they report hair shedding after several days or weeks. This is not possible. As I wrote above, it takes about two months until you notice the manifestation of androgenic alopecia.

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## mirai308

Thanks for posting your experience, I also loss hair and don't know how to repair them.

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## WarLord

> Thanks for posting your experience, I also loss hair and don't know how to repair them.


 The most natural way how to regain hair is to combine an anti-androgen with minoxidil. And you can add dermarolling. In my case, dermarolling appears to be the only effective way how to regain lost hair back because dutasteride+minoxidil was not effective even after 8 years. But (in my case) it requires deramarolling every other day. Otherwise, it has always had zero effect.

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## WarLord

> Well, I must illuminate it a bit: First of all, I think that SARMs are not as revolutionary as some people think. They are basically comparable with the mildest steroids like oxandrolone and nandrolone. To sum up my experience:
> 
> S4 (Andarine): Can be used primarily for strength endurance (incredible!), less for strength. Usually, the effective dosage is around 50 mg/day. The only side effect that I am aware of is the worsened night vision. It can be annoying, but it is not dangerous. 
> 
> Ostarine: Is used for strength at lower doses than S4, usually 15-25 mg/day or so. But personally, I noticed that this drug is pretty hepatotoxic. My liver enzymes were always through the roof. And I was taking only 10-15 mg/day! Certainly, this is not a drug that I would like, although one of its positive effects is high libido. The strength increase was not much impressive either, at least at the doses I was taking. (And I was combining it with S4).
> 
> An interesting thing is that taking SARMs (Ostarine and S4 together) with finasteride and minoxidil probably initiated a sudden hair regrowth in me (in August 2012). I really have no other explanation: I added finasteride to my minoxidil regime in late June 2012, hoping that I would achieve some regrowth in temples. At the beginning of July, I started to use SARMs, and one month later, I was already experiencing a very promising regrowth. But when I stopped using SARMs (in late August 2012), the regrowth quickly stopped. What is worse, two months later (in late October 2012), I started to suffer from incessant shedding in my temples. At first I thought that it was only a temporary "finasteride shed", but it seems that it wasn't, because the lost hair still hasn't regrown back. In other words, my hair loss began to exacerbate after long 17 years again - and I can tell you that the last winter was the worst period of my life. My thoughts were sometimes borderline suicidal. 
> 
> I suspect that the quitting of SARMs must have caused some negative reaction in my body. Perhaps, my androgen receptors were upregulated. I don't know. It's really mindboggling, because before this incident, I was using minoxidil alone successfully for 16,5 years, and I was not experiencing any problems even on relatively harsh steroids like stanozolol. But suddenly, I couldn't stop my hair loss with minoxidil+finasteride!!! Fortunately, I lost patience very early and I jumped on dutasteride - which works excellently!
> ...


 An important update: My deductions were wrong. 

First of all, as I already stated elsewhere, the sudden hair loss in the autumn of 2012 was caused by the use of Anastrozole together with SARMs. I wanted to increase my testosterone levels at the end of the SARMs cycle (to prevent muscle and strength loss). This combination led to the increase of testosterone, but considering that my SHBG levels were very low (as it is during every anabolic cycle), there was a much more free androgens in my blood. No wonder that it was a shock for my hair. 

And second, the regrowth of hair that I experienced during the summer of 2012 was not due to SARMs but due to dermarolling. At present, I experience the same effect when I am dermarolling my temples every other day, for several months. I see multiple hairs - both weak and strong - appearing along my hairline. It was a mere coincidence that I had stopped dermarolling just at the moment when I had stopped using SARMs. (Because I mistakenly thought that dermarolling had nothing to do with this regrowth!) Now it is clear to me why I didn't experience any marked hair regrowth with dutasteride, despite that the level of androgens in my body must be extremely low, even lower than on SARMs. Anti-androgens (including SARMs) simply don't help me to regrow hair. 

Sometimes, it is difficult to find answers, when the number of variables is too large. In any case, my experience shows that when you want to regrow hair and minoxidil+anti-androgens didn't work, dermarolling is a very good option.

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## joynihao

You can take S4 for physical exercises. You won't lose your sight. I haven't heard a single story from the gym dudes I know.

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## joynihao

> You can take S4 for physical exercises. You won't lose your sight. I haven't heard a single story from the gym dudes I know.


 They said it was hard to look at the phone at night. Sometimes their eyes hurt when watching movies in a dark room. But that's it. But if you're afraid of hair loss, take testolone or arimistane. I've been using arimistane for a year to normalize testosterone and improve my newness. My doctor told me a long time ago to buy it at https://behemothlabz.com/product/arimistane-liquid since such an experimental drug cannot be purchased in pharmacies. No side effects. And the chest hair may have gotten thicker.

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