# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  WCHR 2014 Presentations (Community-funded)

## Desmond84

So guys here we are at the frontier of research and development in tissue engineering and stem cell research. Non of this could have been done without the willpower of over 120 of our valuable members and enthusiasts  :Smile: 

I am so proud to be representing you guys and I have no doubt this initiative will bring about a sea of change in the field of research never before imagined thanks to our advances in information technology and social networks. When I joined this community 2 years ago I never imagined I'd be ending up in Jeju Island reporting live from an International medical conference. We have come a long way indeed and I am more than honored to be representing such amazing boys and girls, men and women who have such an eager interest in science and technology. I am humbled beyond speech by all your good luck messages and well wishes.

Also, I'd like to send a big thank you to Hellouser and Arashi for not only helping out financially (and significantly I might add) but also their time into organising details of this trip. You guys are the gems of this community and will remain a very strong voice for many of us all around the world in years to come.

Now first things first, lets start with my first pic from Jeju Island  :Smile: 



And another of its famous monuments  :Wink: 



I managed to finalise my registration today at the international convention centre and got to have a chat with the organiser's committee board regarding video recording the presentations. They actually had no problem with it and even mentioned they would have loved to organise someone to do it! So that is one big hurdle out of the way  :Smile: 

I also got the book with all the abstracts and I'll be posting them as the relevant days come up. 

So this is my first post from Jeju Island and many more to come. Please try not to clutter this thread and keep the discussions on another thread. However, if it's something relevant to the talks that are posted feel free to ask any questions on this thread.

A big shout out to all my friends all around the world.

Peace...

Desmond

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## BoSox

This is awesome, can't wait! Good luck Desmond.

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## Arashi

I don't want to clutter up the thread already, haha, but just want to mention how proud I am that we've managed to get this going and that for the first time in the history of this forum we now have our own reporter on the inside of the most important hair regeneration conference of the year ! If people would only come 1 time per year to this 'cutting edge/future treatments' part of the forum, this is the thread they should be reading  :Smile: 

Thanks again for all you're doing for us Desmond and best of luck tomorrow !! 

And thanks again to all that have contributed to make this possible !!

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## Sixers

I've been lurking these forums for maybe 2 years now . Amazing unified work here. All of you guys that contributed are greatly appreciated.

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## Desmond84

So i think the best talks to record tomorrow are as follows:

1) 11:30am - (PC1-5) Burning Scalp Syndrome: Pathophysiology & Management by Dr Gil Yasipovitch

2) 12:30pm - (LS1-2) Follicular Stem cells by Dr George Cotsarelis

3) 1:30pm - (LS1-3) Ageing characteristics of Hair & Scalp in east Asian females and hair growth promoting effects of Panax Ginseng by Dr Ohsang Kwon

That's the only interesting ones I could find that are on tomorrow. There'll be a lot of poster presentations as well. If I spot anything interesting I'll record it. I'll also try and convince some of the researchers to do interviews  :Smile:  Fingers crossed.

OK guys. That's it from me. Gonna go to bed. Big day tomorrow.

Goodnight.

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## Arashi

> So i think the best talks to record tomorrow are as follows:
> 
> 1) 11:30am - (PC1-5) Burning Scalp Syndrome: Pathophysiology & Management by Dr Gil Yasipovitch
> 
> 2) 12:30pm - (LS1-2) Follicular Stem cells by Dr George Cotsarelis
> 
> 3) 1:30pm - (LS1-3) Ageing characteristics of Hair & Scalp in east Asian females and hair growth promoting effects of Panax Ginseng by Dr Ohsang Kwon
> 
> That's the only interesting ones I could find that are on tomorrow. There'll be a lot of poster presentations as well. If I spot anything interesting I'll record it. I'll also try and convince some of the researchers to do interviews  Fingers crossed.
> ...


 The first big name, Cotsarelis tomorrow ! If you could get to ask him some questions, that would be truely amazing. Sleep well and good luck tomorrow Desmond !

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## hellouser

> The first big name, Cotsarelis tomorrow ! If you could get to ask him some questions, that would be truely amazing. Sleep well and good luck tomorrow Desmond !


 I spoke to Dr. Cotsarelis' administrator and sent her an email about a Desmond meeting up with him (this was last week). I'm going to try once more today and try to schedule something after the 1:30pm - (LS1-3) presentation just to make sure he doesnt miss out on any other presentations.

Also, to all, post your questions for Dr. Cotsarelis in THIS thread:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=16132

Great work Desmond!

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## J_B_Davis

Ok, just need to play devils advocate here,  Desmond still has not provided us and those who have blindly contributed to his anonymous paypal account, any evidence that he attending the congress.

Desmond, please dont take offense to this, but since you are uploading some beautiful images, (BTW, you might have missed your calling as a professional photographer, those pics can be sold as stock images) please take some pics of the following for us:

Images of your registration credentials(real name can be blocked out), also since you are taking pictures and have been given permission to take video, please have one photo taken in front on of one 2014 congress signs with you holding something that says, hello baldtruthtalk.com. You can crop your face out of it of course. 

At the very least taking the last picture should be absolutely no problem if you are in fact attending the conference. If you are there, then great! I think it's fantastic that youre going to be reporting back to the community, but please understand that at this point you have not really shown any good faith as far as providing evidence that you are actually attending. Im sure that most reasonable people on this forum would agree.

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## nameless

> Ok, just need to play devils advocate here,  Desmond still has not provided us and those who have blindly contributed to his anonymous paypal account, any evidence that he attending the congress.
> 
> Desmond, please dont take offense to this, but since you are uploading some beautiful images, (BTW, you might have missed your calling as a professional photographer, those pics can be sold as stock images) please take some pics of the following for us:
> 
> Images of your registration credentials(real name can be blocked out), also since you are taking pictures and have been given permission to take video, please have one photo taken in front on of one 2014 congress signs with you holding something that says, hello baldtruthtalk.com. You can crop your face out of it of course. 
> 
> At the very least taking the last picture should be absolutely no problem if you are in fact attending the conference. If you are there, then great! I think it's fantastic that youre going to be reporting back to the community, but please understand that at this point you have not really shown any good faith as far as providing evidence that you are actually attending. Im sure that most reasonable people on this forum would agree.


 I wish these posts impugning Desmond's character would cease.

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## Dazza

> Ok, just need to play devil’s advocate here,  Desmond still has not provided us and those who have blindly contributed to his anonymous paypal account, any evidence that he’ attending the congress.
> 
> Desmond, please don’t take offense to this, but since you are uploading some beautiful images, (BTW, you might have missed your calling as a professional photographer, those pics can be sold as stock images) please take some pics of the following for us:
> 
> Images of your registration credentials(real name can be blocked out), also since you are taking pictures and have been given permission to take video, please have one photo taken in front on of one 2014 congress signs with you holding something that says, hello baldtruthtalk.com. You can crop your face out of it of course. 
> 
> At the very least taking the last picture should be absolutely no problem if you are in fact attending the conference. If you are there, then great! I think it's fantastic that you’re going to be reporting back to the community, but please understand that at this point you have not really shown any good faith as far as providing evidence that you are actually attending. I’m sure that most reasonable people on this forum would agree.


 Cant find any reverse image search on the first picture tho the second i can. 

If you reverse google image search the second picture you can see it on google. The 2nd picture was NOT taken by Desmond. I can find records of the picture from 2009. 

Desmond buddy you need to post proof you're there.

Edit: No idea if this link will work 
http://webtrickz.com/download-window...se-wallpapers/

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## toretto

> Ok, just need to play devils advocate here,  Desmond still has not provided us and those who have blindly contributed to his anonymous paypal account, any evidence that he attending the congress.
> 
> Desmond, please dont take offense to this, but since you are uploading some beautiful images, (BTW, you might have missed your calling as a professional photographer, those pics can be sold as stock images) please take some pics of the following for us:
> 
> Images of your registration credentials(real name can be blocked out), also since you are taking pictures and have been given permission to take video, please have one photo taken in front on of one 2014 congress signs with you holding something that says, hello baldtruthtalk.com. You can crop your face out of it of course. 
> 
> At the very least taking the last picture should be absolutely no problem if you are in fact attending the conference. If you are there, then great! I think it's fantastic that youre going to be reporting back to the community, but please understand that at this point you have not really shown any good faith as far as providing evidence that you are actually attending. Im sure that most reasonable people on this forum would agree.


 
The only thing sure is that u really deserve to be bald for all your life..I really can't believe what i ve just read..

Anyway Desmond really thank u from the bottom of my heart for what u r doing for all of us,for your time and efforts!!!

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## jjo

> Cant find any reverse image search on the first picture tho the second i can. 
> 
> If you reverse google image search the second picture you can see it on google. The 2nd picture was NOT taken by Desmond. I can find records of the picture from 2009. 
> 
> Desmond buddy you need to post proof you're there.
> 
> Edit: No idea if this link will work 
> http://webtrickz.com/download-window...se-wallpapers/


 
ok you have to admit that's a little strange, why put a google pic up and claim it's yours?

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## J_B_Davis

> The only thing sure is that u really deserve to be bald for all your life..I really can't believe what i ve just read..
> 
> Anyway Desmond really thank u from the bottom of my heart for what u r doing for all of us,for your time and efforts!!!


 Thank you for that torestto!
Back To Desmond, at his point he has shown no good faith that he is an actual person traveling to Korea to attend this congress as opposed to being troll taking advantage of everyone's vulnerability on this forum. If this anonymous persons efforts are genuine, I think thats fantastic, but to me, it just looks like an elaborate hoax. He can easily prove me wrong by providing the evidence requested. If Desmond is genuine then he should have no problem understanding why some of us are a little suspicious and provide us with all the evidence needed to make us feel comfortable with this. Any reasonable person would agree.

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## Dazza

> ok you have to admit that's a little strange, why put a google pic up and claim it's yours?


 I was actually doing it to prove you wrong. I had a shit*y response planned for you and everything lol. It was a surprise when the second image came up. 

Desmond can easily just time stamp a picture with a flight ticket ect to clear things up.

Edit: sorry thought you was J_B_Davis. Realised when I re read your quote.

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## hellouser

> I was actually doing it to prove you wrong. I had a shit*y response planned for you and everything lol. It was a surprise when the second image came up. 
> 
> Desmond can easily just time stamp a picture with a flight ticket ect to clear things up.


 Or... you know, post a video of the presentations? LOL

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## Dazza

> Or... you know, post a video of the presentations? LOL


 That would work also lol.

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## Mike K

> Ok, just need to play devils advocate here,  Desmond still has not provided us and those who have blindly contributed to his anonymous paypal account, any evidence that he attending the congress.
> 
> Desmond, please dont take offense to this, but since you are uploading some beautiful images, (BTW, you might have missed your calling as a professional photographer, those pics can be sold as stock images) please take some pics of the following for us:
> 
> Images of your registration credentials(real name can be blocked out), also since you are taking pictures and have been given permission to take video, please have one photo taken in front on of one 2014 congress signs with you holding something that says, hello baldtruthtalk.com. You can crop your face out of it of course. 
> 
> At the very least taking the last picture should be absolutely no problem if you are in fact attending the conference. If you are there, then great! I think it's fantastic that youre going to be reporting back to the community, but please understand that at this point you have not really shown any good faith as far as providing evidence that you are actually attending. Im sure that most reasonable people on this forum would agree.


 I read through your previous comments and as far as I can tell you didn't contribute any money, so screw off. If I'm wrong let me know. Otherwise there's the door.

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## jjo

> Or... you know, post a video of the presentations? LOL


 
he should just get a program or something from the event and take a picture of it.. maybe make a peace sign with his hand on the side..

that would do it for me

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## efedrez

> Ok, just need to play devil’s advocate here,  Desmond still has not provided us and those who have blindly contributed to his anonymous paypal account, any evidence that he’ attending the congress.
> 
> Desmond, please don’t take offense to this, but since you are uploading some beautiful images, (BTW, you might have missed your calling as a professional photographer, those pics can be sold as stock images) please take some pics of the following for us:
> 
> Images of your registration credentials(real name can be blocked out), also since you are taking pictures and have been given permission to take video, please have one photo taken in front on of one 2014 congress signs with you holding something that says, hello baldtruthtalk.com. You can crop your face out of it of course. 
> 
> At the very least taking the last picture should be absolutely no problem if you are in fact attending the conference. If you are there, then great! I think it's fantastic that you’re going to be reporting back to the community, but please understand that at this point you have not really shown any good faith as far as providing evidence that you are actually attending. I’m sure that most reasonable people on this forum would agree.


 I fully trust in Desmond and his legit intentions of bringing valuable information to our community.

However suspicious comments like this one has appear in the forum more than once since this initiative started.

I'm confident that Desmond will provide reliable evidence of his participation in the congress tomorrow, as it's the first day of the event, that will eliminate any doubts of his intentions

Please let's just wait one more day and start talking about the interesting topics that are being discuss in the congress and leave behind all the mistrust

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## J_B_Davis

> he should just get a program or something from the event and take a picture of it.. maybe make a peace sign with his hand on the side..
> 
> that would do it for me


 Its simple:
Pic of a program with for my friends at baldtruthtalk written on it posted by end of the first day. Not a pdf of the program but an actual program in his hand. He can also video tape it while walking through the conference hall and poster rooms saying hi to us flipping through the pages. Really easy, he can even do it with his phone. Doesnt  even have to show his face.  So far he has not posted a pic of his credentials, his plane tickets, hotel key card or any of a number of simple things to prove hes for real. How about he takes a video showing us his hotel key card, conference  program and credentials in front of his laptop with the forum on the screen?  What about video of him walking through the hotel lobby, with footage indicating that he is really in the lobby and saying hi to us? Anything! The type of stuff any traveler would do and post on Facebook. :Smile:

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## hellouser

Guys, you do realize the FIRST presentation is tomorrow with Dr. Cotsarelis and others, right? I think if we've waited this long to fund Desmond and organize all this, we can wait one more day to hear about them. I woudn't put so much stress into this right now. Just be patient, everyone will get answers tomorrow.

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## nameless

> That would work also lol.


 
And that's what's going to happen so will the people slandering Desmond please cease. He has said he will post video so please stop the insults and wait for the videos.

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## J_B_Davis

> Guys, you do realize the FIRST presentation is tomorrow with Dr. Cotsarelis and others, right? I think if we've waited this long to fund Desmond and organize all this, we can wait one more day to hear about them. I woudn't put so much stress into this right now. Just be patient, everyone will get answers tomorrow.


 Its so simple for Desmond to prove that he is for real. I think that if we dont have definitive  proof by the end of the first day of the conference then this person just took everyone for a ride. Anyone who actually took the time to travel to Korea claiming to represent a bunch of people who funded his trip would have already posted multiple pics on the plane, the airport, the taxi, his hotel room etc.  This is 2014, this is what people do. I mean hes just supposedly traveled to Korea and posts two google images and not a single pic from his travels and this makes sense to you guys?

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## Mike K

J B Davis didn't contribute anyway so who cares what this guy thinks?

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## hellouser

> Its so simple for Desmond to prove that he is for real. I think that if we dont have definitive  proof by the end of the first day of the conference then this person just took everyone for a ride. Anyone who actually took the time to travel to Korea claiming to represent a bunch of people who funded his trip would have already posted multiple pics on the plane, the airport, the taxi, his hotel room etc.  This is 2014, this is what people do. I mean hes just supposedly traveled to Korea and posts two google images and not a single pic from his travels and this makes sense to you guys?


 Who cares if he's real or not? He could be half woman, half chimp with a gimpy leg with devil horns and a pitchfork. I don't care. Once Desmond posts the presentations in the coming days all this banter will be redundant. The congress starts tomorrow. You guys are REALLY impatient.

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## J_B_Davis

> J B Davis didn't contribute anyway so who cares what this guy thinks?


 How would you know if I contributed or not? Ive lost much more money gambling before. I might have sent a few bucks to to see what happens. The only way you could know is if you are Desmond, so if you're not Desmond lets stick to the facts please.

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## Dazza

> J B Davis didn't contribute anyway so who cares what this guy thinks?


 Well it doesn't help speculation when Desmond puts up a stock photo from the internet. 

For the record I totally support Desmond. Finding the stock photo did shake my confidence in him a little. All will be clear by tomorrow anyway.

People will question things. It's totally normal. Nobody has personally attacked Desmond.

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## Mike K

> How would you know if I contributed or not? I’ve lost much more money gambling before. I might have sent a few bucks to to see what happens. The only way you could know is if you are Desmond, so if you're not Desmond lets stick to the facts please.


 Why don't you prove to us you contributed since you're demanding proof of Desmond going?

Also, I say if he did send "a few bucks" that we give them back to this guy.

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## J_B_Davis

> Why don't you prove to us you contributed since you're demanding proof of Desmond going?
> 
> Also, I say if he did send "a few bucks" that we give them back to this guy.


 That's logical. Let's just stick to the facts. Desmond can easily prove himself to all of us. It would have taken the same amount of time to post a real image as it did to post the Google images. Any reasonable person would agree. We'll see what this person comes up with at the end of the first day of the conference.

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## efedrez

> Its so simple for Desmond to prove that he is for real. I think that if we dont have definitive  proof by the end of the first day of the conference then this person just took everyone for a ride. Anyone who actually took the time to travel to Korea claiming to represent a bunch of people who funded his trip would have already posted multiple pics on the plane, the airport, the taxi, his hotel room etc.  This is 2014, this is what people do. I mean hes just supposedly traveled to Korea and posts two google images and not a single pic from his travels and this makes sense to you guys?


 J B Davis, please understand that although legit this type of comments only hurt possibilities of future community initiative and minimize the effort made by Desmond and the members who have contributed to this.

Desmond is for sure in Korea and he will provide us valuable information tomorrow.

Been patient for only a few more hours will save you the trouble of rectifying tomorrow and will help maintaining the good vibe of this effort

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## J_B_Davis

> J B Davis, please understand that although legit this type of comments only hurt possibilities of future community initiative and minimize the effort made by Desmond and the members who have contributed to this.
> 
> Desmond is for sure in Korea and he will provide us valuable information tomorrow.
> 
> Been patient for only a few more hours will save you the trouble of rectifying tomorrow and will help maintaining the good vibe of this effort


 The only thing that can hurt future initiatives is if it turns out that Desmond was trolling us. No one is minimizing the efforts of members of this forum or those of Desmond if he is for real. This persons actions will be what determines how people respond to future initiatives. If he proves that he doing what he claims, great! If not, weve all learned a lesson.

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## JulioGP

Good luck Desmond. You´re a part of our hope.

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## Jonathan

> ...


 So You think Desmond is making an effort of faking pictures etc AFTER he got the money on his Paypal account? Why in the world would he do that?

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## Dazza

One of the pictures Desmond posted was a stock picture from as far back as 2009.
http://webtrickz.com/download-window...se-wallpapers/

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## Jonathan

> One of the pictures Desmond posted was a stock picture from as far back as 2009.
> http://webtrickz.com/download-window...se-wallpapers/


 Yes, so what? Desmond is a gentleman and he shared a picture from some famous monument on Jeju Island.  Have you never sent a postcard that someone else made?

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## bigentries

Desmond only claimed the first pic is his, he doesn't implies the second pic was taken by him, considering he linked to another website, while the first pic is from an upload site

The first pics was taken with a Galaxy Note II in case he commented about it somewhere else

I don't see why not trust him right now, it's not like he fell in any contradiction




> Yes, so what? Desmond is a gentleman and he shared a picture from some famous monument on Jeju Island.  Have you never sent a postcard that someone else made?


 The problem is that this is a misunderstanding. He did said he took a pic himself (the first pic) and didn't clarified the second pic was from somewhere else, but also, he never implied it was his. If he had said it was his, then that was a red flag, but this is not the case

I don't see why people need to get all defensive and even wish baldness on some posters, those are honest concerns, and in this case these concerns can be settled fairly easy with counter-arguments, not blind faith

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## Dazza

> Yes, so what? Desmond is a gentleman and he shared a picture from some famous monument on Jeju Island.  Have you never sent a postcard that someone else made?


 Thats absolutely fine. Desmond worded it as he took the picture.

*"Now first things first, lets start with my first pic from Jeju Island"
"And another of its famous monuments"*

Like i have said in a previous post, i have faith in Desmond tho finding the reverse image search was a shock. 

People need to calm down. Nobody has personally attacked him. People have just asked for some proof. Proof that will be shown tomorrow.

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## Dazza

> I don't see why people need to get all defensive and even wish baldness on some posters, those are honest concerns, and in this case these concerns can be settled fairly easy with counter-arguments, not blind faith


 Well said.

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## somethingsomething

Hello..

May I ask something?

When I right click and open the stone monument picture in new tab
I then right clicked again at the stone monument picture and click "examine component"

The following information came out:
"<img style=" - webkit-user-select: none;cursor: - webkit-zoom in;" src http://placesfortour.com/jejuisland/tol-haruebang-statues.jpg" width="1038" height="649">"

http://placesfortour.com does not look like a site you can upload own photos.
I am pretty decent with computers but I really, really trust Desmond as he, as long as I have been comming by, been a helpful person to this forum.

Could anyone explain this for me? :Confused:

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## bigentries

> Hello..
> 
> May I ask something?
> 
> When I right click and open the stone monument picture in new tab
> I then right clicked again at the stone monument picture and click "examine component"
> 
> The following information came out:
> "<img style=" - webkit-user-select: none;cursor: - webkit-zoom in;" src http://placesfortour.com/jejuisland/tol-haruebang-statues.jpg" width="1038" height="649">"
> ...


 Because he used a pic from somewhere else, the problem is that Desmond used some unfortunate wording. I can see why some people see it as him claiming the two pics were taken by him

But he never implied the second pic is his, he just wanted to show some monuments.

I don't see the big problem, there is no contradiction here.

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## Arashi

Hehe. To all the sherlocks out there: the 2nd picture Desmond linked from the internet. The first was taken today: http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&...m%2Ffmtm9z.jpg

Also if you google search pictures ( https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sb...ed=0CFIQ9Q8oAA )

you see that it was not taken from the internet.

Nothing wrong with being critical but please do you use brains. If Desmond really wanted to scam us, why would he even be still here ?

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## nameless

> Hello..
> 
> May I ask something?
> 
> When I right click and open the stone monument picture in new tab
> I then right clicked again at the stone monument picture and click "examine component"
> 
> The following information came out:
> "<img style=" - webkit-user-select: none;cursor: - webkit-zoom in;" src http://placesfortour.com/jejuisland/tol-haruebang-statues.jpg" width="1038" height="649">"
> ...


 Even if he had been bragging that he took such a great pic but he really did not take the pic that would not show that he's cheated anybody. That would only show he doesn't have a ton of faith in his picture taking ability so he used a stock pic and wanted us to think it was his own pic so that we would think he takes good pics instead of having to resort to stock pics. 

All the negative poo being said is nonsense. 

People should wait till tomorrow night and pipe down.

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## nameless

> Hehe. To all the sherlocks out there: the 2nd picture Desmond linked from the internet. The first was taken today: http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&...m%2Ffmtm9z.jpg
> 
> Also if you google search pictures ( https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sb...ed=0CFIQ9Q8oAA )
> 
> you see that it was not taken from the internet.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being critical but please do you use brains. If Desmond really wanted to scam us, why would he even be still here ?


 + a BIG 1!

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## hellouser

> Hehe. To all the sherlocks out there: the 2nd picture Desmond linked from the internet. The first was taken today: http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&...m%2Ffmtm9z.jpg
> 
> Also if you google search pictures ( https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sb...ed=0CFIQ9Q8oAA )
> 
> you see that it was not taken from the internet.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being critical but please do you use brains. If Desmond really wanted to scam us, why would he even be still here ?


 Desmond's IP and email are both stored by BTT. Paypal has all his personal info as well. Plus he's been a devoted member here for years, its not like it was a master plan either.

I can't believe members can't wait ONE DAY to see the presentations from Desmond and for all the wrong reasons too; I can't wait because I wanna know what Dr. Cotsarelis has up his sleeve.

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## Dazza

> Hehe. To all the sherlocks out there: the 2nd picture Desmond linked from the internet. 
> 
> The first was taken today: 
> you see that it was not taken from the internet.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being critical but please do you use brains. If Desmond really wanted to scam us, why would he even be still here ?


 Cheers for clearing that up. I couldn't find any info on the first picture. The 2nd did throw me a little lol  :Big Grin:

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## Dazza

> *I can't wait because I wanna know what Dr. Cotsarelis has up his sleeve.*


 Good news i hope.

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## hellouser

> Oh? Good news?


 I donno, we'll find out tomorrow.  :Smile:  After that, Dr. Gerd Lindner's findings will hopefully make me clean out my shorts. I'm extremely excited  :Smile:

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## Kudu

So much for not cluttering up the thread lol

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## Arashi

> So much for not cluttering up the thread lol


 LOL yeah that worked out really well  :Smile:  I think the best thing to do is keep using this thread, Desmond could post his daily updates/vids here too and when the congress is done, Desmond can open a new thread with links to all vids and all info in the 1st post.

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## Desmond84

Oh wow! I woke up to a storm LOL

The first pic is mine. The second one is one of the famous monuments I wanted you guys to see from Jeju Island. 

As for your request, here's another one of my photos  :Smile:  Calm down guys. I'm here for you. I'll try and upload the first video tonight.

Cheers,

Des.

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## efedrez

> Oh wow! I woke up to a storm LOL
> 
> The first pic is mine. The second one is one of the famous monuments I wanted you guys to see from Jeju Island. 
> 
> As for your request, here's another one of my photos  Calm down guys. I'm here for you. I'll try and upload the first video tonight.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Des.


 Thanks Desmond, good luck today!, can't wait to see the summary of today sessions

----------


## Arashi

Good luck today Desmond !!

----------


## losthair85

desmond is a hero and a gentleman


all the best!

----------


## JJJJrS

Pretty ridiculous that Desmond was attacked the way he was. Glad that nonsense is out of the way and we can focus on the conference now. 

It's nice to finally have something to look forward to and get excited about after months of stagnation on the hair loss forums. Great job by everyone involved especially Arashi, hellouser and of course Desmond! Fantastic group effort!

----------


## hellouser

> Oh wow! I woke up to a storm LOL
> 
> The first pic is mine. The second one is one of the famous monuments I wanted you guys to see from Jeju Island. 
> 
> As for your request, here's another one of my photos  Calm down guys. I'm here for you. I'll try and upload the first video tonight.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Des.


 Hey Desmond, just in case you didn't catch my messages:



> Bummer! I just heard back from both Dr. Cotsarelis' administrator:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Hi Hellouser,
> 
> ...

----------


## jjo

> So guys here we are at the frontier of research and development in tissue engineering and stem cell research. Non of this could have been done without the willpower of over 120 of our valuable members and enthusiasts 
> 
> I am so proud to be representing you guys and I have no doubt this initiative will bring about a sea of change in the field of research never before imagined thanks to our advances in information technology and social networks. When I joined this community 2 years ago I never imagined I'd be ending up in Jeju Island reporting live from an International medical conference. We have come a long way indeed and I am more than honored to be representing such amazing boys and girls, men and women who have such an eager interest in science and technology. I am humbled beyond speech by all your good luck messages and well wishes.
> 
> Also, I'd like to send a big thank you to Hellouser and Arashi for not only helping out financially (and significantly I might add) but also their time into organising details of this trip. You guys are the gems of this community and will remain a very strong voice for many of us all around the world in years to come.
> 
> Now first things first, lets start with my first pic from Jeju Island 
> 
> 
> ...


 I STILL DON'T BELIEVE HE'S REALLY THERE !!!!




just kidding,

so much for no clutter in this thread

----------


## Desmond84

Wow guys just finished recording the burning scalp sensation lecture. Very interesting. So many members report suffering from this condition and this lecture gave some fascinating insight into this mysterious condition and effective treatments to combat it.

I'll post the presentation tonight. Dr Cotsarelis's lecture is in 1 hour ;-)

----------


## hellouser

> Wow guys just finished recording the burning scalp sensation lecture. Very interesting. So many members report suffering from this condition and this lecture gave some fascinating insight into this mysterious condition and effective treatments to combat it.
> 
> I'll post the presentation tonight. Dr Cotsarelis's lecture is in 1 hour ;-)


 Try talking to him before the presentation and ask if he can spare you a moment after the presentation! He never responded to his administrator back in in Pennsylvania!

THANK YOU DESMOND!!!

----------


## Desmond84

> Try talking to him before the presentation and ask if he can spare you a moment after the presentation! He never responded to his administrator back in in Pennsylvania!
> 
> THANK YOU DESMOND!!!


 Cotsarelis just finished his lecture. Couldn't track him down before hand. Will approach him once the break starts.

----------


## Velvetmonkey

> I'll also try and convince some of the researchers to do interviews  Fingers crossed.


 Hi Desmond! 

I am the journalist guy that suggested you do some interviews. Let me give you a few tips on how to ask for an interview. Believe it or not there is actually a lot of psychology involved in this.

1. Be polite, enthusiastic and Smile!

2. DON'T TRY TO CONVINCE anybody to do an interview. Your mindset should be that they are DOING the interview and that's that. The only question now is when.

If you give people a choice they will almost by reflex say no. Don't give them a choice. I'll give you some examples:

*- Dr. X. Would you like to do an interview about your research? = WRONG!!!*

*- Dr. X. I've read about your research regarding hair. It's fascinating! I would like to do an interview with you about it, how's this afternoon looking for you? = CORRECT!*

NEVER give them the option to say no. If you do they will. People always choose the path of least resistance if given a choice. Some might also be shy. If you go in with the attitude that they are doing the interview then that option becomes the path of least resistance instead of explaining why they won't do it to you.

Some other pointers:

- Flattery works. Everybody likes to feel important. Make sure you make them feel that way.

- If they say they haven't got the time. Ask for just 5 minutes. It's hard to say no to somebody that is resonable. Obviously when you get them to do the interview you just keep asking as many questions as you want regardless of how long it takes until they shut you down  :Big Grin: 

But most importantly - ASSUME that they are doing the interview when you contact them. Ask WHEN. Don't ask IF!!! 

Good luck dude! I am totally confident you will do great!

And remember - they are more scared of you than you are of them!  :Smile:

----------


## Thinning87

The Cotsarelis presentation should be over now..:? How'd it go!!!

----------


## FearTheLoss

Members, 

Seriously stop commenting on this. We will be at 100 pages by next week if you guys continue to do so. Let Desmond post the info in this thread, and we can discuss it in another so that way we don't have to sort through pages to find his recorded presentations..etc

----------


## Desmond84

OMG guys I just got back from the Opening ceremony dinner and I can say with confidence that the first night has been a success.

After several google image searches (ROFL), I found Dr Beren Ataç and she was having dinner with Dr Gert Linder himself. After a very brief introduction (thanks to Hellouser's amazing work in organising this meeting) they were both really keen to sit down and discuss their work before lunch tomorrow  :Smile:  They are both lovely btw. I was a bit taken back by how nice and approachable they were.

Anddddddd after several attempts @ persuading Dr Cotsarelis to do an interview, he eventually agreed to sit down and do a quick interview with me after his presentation tomorrow. He used several evasive maneuvers to no avail lol... I guess he is the biggest celebrity at this congress so it is understandable. Btw Velvet Monkey thank you so much for the tips man. It really psyched me up during my second attempt and made him comfortable enough to do it. Big thumbs up to you brother  :Smile: 

SO that's it for the updates. I'm gonna start transferring the videos onto my laptop and if I had finished editing, I'll try to upload them tonight.

Cheers guys...I'm a bit nervous about tomorrow. It would have been great if I had another member here with me so we could psych each other up lol. But we gotta make do with what we have I suppose.

Des.

----------


## efedrez

Desmond, you are a heroe, thank you for all the effort

----------


## DifferentLine

I love you

----------


## Arashi

Desmond ... WOW  :Smile:  We love you man  :Big Grin:  That's better than I hoped for, thanks for making us proud  :Smile:

----------


## Kiwi

Good job Desmond!!! Thanks  :Smile:

----------


## Dazza

Amazing work Desmond. Truly! 

Looking forward to your uploads and thoughts.

----------


## mnhair

kudos and thanks Desmond

----------


## DesperateOne

This is the kind of thing we needed, thanks  :Smile:

----------


## nameless

I'm a little confused. First Desmond said Cotseralis did his lecture but then in a later post Desmond said that Cotseralis was still to do his presentation. It's a little confusing. I can't tell if Cotseralis has presented yet or not because it seems like Desmond is saying that Cotseralis has and hasn't done his presentation.

And I'm not attacking Desmond with this question. I'm just trying to understand what he's saying. 

It's amazing that Desmond actually got Dr. Cotseralis to agree to a short interview. I wonder if this is what Desmond was talking about when he said that the first night has been a success or if he picked up some interesting news already? Any guesses.

----------


## hellouser

Got confirmation for meeting w/ Dr. Lindner and Beren Atac! His exact words:




> Ok., Fine. I will be at my Poster (No. 082) at 10:00 pm to meet with your Forum representative To answer his/your questions.


 Good luck Desmond!

----------


## HairBane

> I'm a little confused. First Desmond said Cotseralis did his lecture but then in a later post Desmond said that Cotseralis was still to do his presentation. It's a little confusing. I can't tell if Cotseralis has presented yet or not because it seems like Desmond is saying that Cotseralis has and hasn't done his presentation.
> 
> And I'm not attacking Desmond with this question. I'm just trying to understand what he's saying. 
> 
> It's amazing that Desmond actually got Dr. Cotseralis to agree to a short interview. I wonder if this is what Desmond was talking about when he said that the first night has been a success or if he picked up some interesting news already? Any guesses.


 Dr. Cotsarelis is presenting multiple times.

----------


## HairBane

> Members, 
> 
> Seriously stop commenting on this. We will be at 100 pages by next week if you guys continue to do so. Let Desmond post the info in this thread, and we can discuss it in another so that way we don't have to sort through pages to find his recorded presentations..etc


 That's not going to happen. We can always start a new thread at the end of the presentation with all of the info in 1-2 posts.

----------


## Mike K

> That's not going to happen. We can always start a new thread at the end of the presentation with all of the info in 1-2 posts.


 I like this idea

----------


## J_B_Davis

Im glad to see that Desmond understands my healthy skepticism and has taken the time to provide some evidence that he is indeed attending the conference. As I am sure he realizes, no one was personally attacking him, which would be impossible in the first place since he does not use his real name and is complety anonymous. I was simply playing devils advocate, which is reasonable in a situation like this,  but always hoping for the best as I expressed in my posts.

I appears that you are doing good work Desmond. Thank you and all involved!

----------


## jjo

> That's not going to happen. We can always start a new thread at the end of the presentation with all of the info in 1-2 posts.


 can he not start a thread that's closed to comments.. then just post info and updates without the clutter

----------


## hellouser

> can he not start a thread that's closed to comments.. then just post info and updates without the clutter


 The forum admin would need to make him a moderator. Personally, I feel that editing comments should be allowed, Desmond would then only need to update his first post in the thread keeping all info in one simple and clean layout rather than having things as scattered as they are now.

----------


## Hicks

Start a blog on Googles blogger?

Be excited and pumped up. not crazy.  Put yourself in his shoes.  

Before in interview or meeting I slam a Monster (the green ones) or take a caffeine pill with asprin with lots of water.  WARNING you'll have to pee so can't drag this out forever.

----------


## hellouser

> Start a blog on Googles blogger?


 No, everything should stay on Bald Truth Talk. Fragmenting information confuses anyone who isn't part of this forum.

----------


## Hicks

Sounds good. FYI I stopped coming to this section/forum because of the pages of BS. You might say fine but I would off love to donate to this adventure but the countless pages of BS is to much for me and my time to filter.

Is there a Blog feature on BTT?

----------


## nameless

> No, everything should stay on Bald Truth Talk. Fragmenting information confuses anyone who isn't part of this forum.


 You're right again. The idea of putting the Desmond matters on different sites all over the place is a mistake. People will have to go all over the place to follow the action. It' would be a mess.

----------


## Dan26

Amazing Desmond!

You're a beast brah!

----------


## rdawg

Awesome stuff Desmond keep it coming!!

----------


## Winston

> Is there a Blog feature on BTT?


 BTT does have a blog feature and if Desmond would like he can have access to create his own blog.

Here's and example of how the feature looks:
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/blog.php?u=89

----------


## Desmond84

Hi guys,

Just finished the interview with Dr Atac & Dr Linder. They are now officially my heroes of hair regeneration. First of all, I should say they were the nicest ppl I have spoken to who are really passionate about their work. I think I made 2 very good friends today and that is a great achievement in itself.

Also, they didn't feel comfortable recording this interview in case they mention something that may jeopardise their unpublished work or give their competitors the upper hand. But they did agree to have a casual talk about their work and I was allowed to take notes They also showed me a few slides on their laptop on their current work. I have assured them that I will not disclose anything they are not happy with and will forward a written copy of my account before I post it on BTT. So give it some time before I can provide the full details of this truly mind blowing discussion I had with them.

What I will say for now however is that their research on hair regeneration did not stop in 2010 after Dr Lauster's paper was published. Their work continued at a much faster pace than I had imagined. One important point I should make is they are only working with human cells and have overcome a lot of problems that we had imagined in terms of culturing DP cells. Their talk tomorrow will also cover some of that.

I was really taken back by all the slides they were showing me and how much they have achieved. Inspiring stuff. Sorry for not disclosing too much yet. I will give you the full details once they give me the green light.

Also Hell, they agreed to send me a pdf document of the slides they were showing me. Could you pm me Dr Linder's email address. Thank you so much.

Guys one thing I can say is that our dreams are in the making. There are so much work being put into the hair research that I had not expected. I am merely scratching the surface. Wish we had more ppl here to cover all the talks and poster presentations.

What a day. I'll talking to Dr Cotsarelis a bit later today.

Reporting from Jeju Island

Desmond.

----------


## hellouser

> Hi guys,
> 
> Just finished the interview with Dr Atac & Dr Linder. They are now officially my heroes of hair regeneration. First of all, I should say they were the nicest ppl I have spoken to who are really passionate about their work. I think I made 2 very good friends today and that is a great achievement in itself.
> 
> Also, they didn't feel comfortable recording this interview in case they mention something that may jeopardise their unpublished work or give their competitors the upper hand. But they did agree to have a casual talk about their work and I was allowed to take notes They also showed me a few slides on their laptop on their current work. I have assured them that I will not disclose anything they are not happy with and will forward a written copy of my account before I post it on BTT. So give it some time before I can provide the full details of this truly mind blowing discussion I had with them.
> 
> What I will say for now however is that their research on hair regeneration did not stop in 2010 after Dr Lauster's paper was published. Their work continued at a much faster pace than I had imagined. One important point I should make is they are only working with human cells and have overcome a lot of problems that we had imagined in terms of culturing DP cells. Their talk tomorrow will also cover some of that.
> 
> I was really taken back by all the slides they were showing me and how much they have achieved. Inspiring stuff. Sorry for not disclosing too much yet. I will give you the full details once they give me the green light.
> ...


 Desmond,

I am having goosebumps right now... tears are forming. I haven't felt what I'm feeling right now in years. I always knew we as a community could achieve incredible things and still know we could do so much more. Once again, thank you, thank you, thank you for your dedication and initiative on representing all of us.

I will rope you in on a 3 way email between myself and Dr. Gerd Lindner, so he'll know not to have your account end up in a spam filter.

Great work Desmond, absolutely incredible. If I'm ever near your stomping grounds, I'm buying you multiple rounds of expensive champagne, or here in Canada should you ever decide to visit.

----------


## caddarik79

what you guyz have achieved is amazing, I was away travelling and did not follow and now I see that thread!!!

You demonstrated that a community on a forum can have a real strong voice and get real.

A cure for baldness (meaning a real definitive one with no side effects), in terms of money making for who finds it and commercialises it, would be a billions of dollars maker + the fact that this company will help sooooo many people.
And with the huge benefits they for sure would make, they could reinvest in research for other treatments like a domino effect.

The demand for a treatment is just enormous, people would pay for a real thing, when you see what people can already pay for very not convincing transplants and coverage.


What would be the next step in terms of expressing how in the interest of everybody, the venue of a final cure would be?
It is true that we have to stop with the promoting the actual (not efficient at all or too risky) treatments.

Desmond and Hell and Arashi, again, thank you, it seems to really move forward, I hope we will have a bite on the cure cake Meanwhile, let's all save a bit of money, we might need it in a year or two or three

----------


## Thinning87

Great work Desmond! I'd love to hear more about Cotsarelis and his presentation (what has Follica been up to with regards to the whole fgf9 thing??). 

I'm looking forward to the congress being over and reading about all this! Keep it up Desmond and thanks again!

----------


## toretto

> Hi guys,
> 
> Just finished the interview with Dr Atac & Dr Linder. They are now officially my heroes of hair regeneration. First of all, I should say they were the nicest ppl I have spoken to who are really passionate about their work. I think I made 2 very good friends today and that is a great achievement in itself.
> 
> Also, they didn't feel comfortable recording this interview in case they mention something that may jeopardise their unpublished work or give their competitors the upper hand. But they did agree to have a casual talk about their work and I was allowed to take notes They also showed me a few slides on their laptop on their current work. I have assured them that I will not disclose anything they are not happy with and will forward a written copy of my account before I post it on BTT. So give it some time before I can provide the full details of this truly mind blowing discussion I had with them.
> 
> What I will say for now however is that their research on hair regeneration did not stop in 2010 after Dr Lauster's paper was published. Their work continued at a much faster pace than I had imagined. One important point I should make is they are only working with human cells and have overcome a lot of problems that we had imagined in terms of culturing DP cells. Their talk tomorrow will also cover some of that.
> 
> I was really taken back by all the slides they were showing me and how much they have achieved. Inspiring stuff. Sorry for not disclosing too much yet. I will give you the full details once they give me the green light.
> ...


 OMG!!!Desmond,u ve just made my day..you r really THE MAN..i m really speachless..thank you really really thank you

----------


## Phatalis

If there's a cure we need to have a cure party.

And just get schwasteeddd

...one day

----------


## Tacola

From all of my heart, thank you Desmond for covering this!

For a long while, I have managed to keep away from the forums and just try to focus on other things, but now...this just makes me so happy! I`m really happy for all of us that there might be some positive news in the making. And by that I mean really and finaly some definitive positive news!  :Smile: 

I can`t wait to read more about all the news that Desmond bring us!! 

Thank you, thank you, thank you!  :Smile:  Keep the good work going!

----------


## hgs1989

hi desmond,

really thank you for your efforts. did you manage to conclude a timeline from Dr Atac and Dr Lindner or any promising treatment that is coming soon ?

----------


## ytterligare

Thanks Desmond, that's amazing. I can't conenctrate anymore at work guessing what crazy stuff you'll be exploring next.

----------


## Desmond84

Hi guys today's talks are over. Yay

There is so much information being presented that I can't even keep up with everything. I have recorded all the key talks regarding AGA so far and the talks all convey the samemessage: "Many teams seem to have solved the DP culturing problem and have maintained the genetic markers necessary for hair formation."

That is definitely a big plus.

Also, after having talked to many of the attendees it seems that some of these guys solved this problem years ago and have gone beyond this preliminary research to much grander attempts. When I asked why they did not publish it they said in order to keep other competitors in the dark! Really crazy stuff

And now, as you requested I tracked down Dr Cotsarelis at the end of today and had a chat with him about the burning matters. Again he did not want to go on camera for reasons already mentioned but was glad to talk face to face. So here's what he had to say:

1) Follica's phase 2 trial completed recently with promising results. But they have insufficient funds to continue with further trials. So at this point everything has been put on hold.

2) When I asked him if the rumours were true that the company that conducted the trials on behalf of Follica was found to falsify data and is being sued. He laughed and denied  any such matters. So the data they collected is definitely valid I suppose.

3) I brought up the crowdfunding idea particularly with regards to Follica and he said the amount necessary is quite large. So I insisted on an actual amount and here's what he said: "US $2 million would bring out a product that would be more effective than Minoxidil and Propecia but would not give a bald person a full head of hair. US $20 million will provide the kind of funding necessary to give someone who is already bald a full head of hair but it will take more years to accomplish".

4) Also he did say that a full blown cure using Follica's method for an already bald person is still many years away.

5) Regarding the PGD2 approach and the current blockers that are in trials, i mentioned how they are failing to show much benefit in Asthma and trials are being stopped one at a time he seemed very optimistic and believed that is a great thing for hair because companies in general try to keep the number of trials to the minimum. The more trials you do the greater the chances for an adverse effect to be found. He believes that is the best thing that could have happened and may finally give these companies enough willpower to start a trial in hair regeneration.

6) And finally I brought up fgf9 and its potentials. He believes fgf9 is still a very new discovery with many years of preclinical research ahead of it, when I asked for an estimated date he said at least 10 years. He then went on to mention that just to go from Rogaine liquid to Rogaine foam it took the company over 8 years of studies and data collection before they were allowed to sell it and Minoxidil has been on the market for many years. Now imagine if we are trying to bring out a completely new agent. The timeframes are quite long indeed.

So all in all, Dr Cotsarelis seemed less enthusiastic than some of the others but I guess we kind of had gathered that with Follica being silent for extended  periods at a time. But do not let that put you in despair as there are many many other approaches are being trialled and tested. Dr Atac & Linder really gave me a lot of hope about the possibilities in the near future. 

Btw with regards to the timelines with the German microchip technology, they really didn't want to say anything about timelines which is undrestandable. But from what I could gather in terms of hair regeneration they are at least 3-4 years away from beginning a Phase 1 trial. I will elaborate more on that a bit later once they are happy with what I'm saying  :Wink: 

Also, audio & video quality of the talks seem very good. I'm having a bit of trouble with transferring it into premiere pro to edit the videos. I may have to take the videos back to Oz and ask my friends to help me with the editing in which case you guys may have to wait at least another week to watch them. I'm really sorry about that but this whole codec formats and frames pr second options are like a foreign language to me lol. 

Well, that's it for me today ladies and gentlemen. Going to grab some dinner and do a bit of trekking.

Hopefully I will have some more exciting news for you guys tomorrow  :Smile:  Im gonna have a few drinks after talking to some of the smartest ppl I have ever come across...what a day  :Smile: 

Love you guys

Desmond.

----------


## Thinning87

I don't understand Cotsarelis. $2 million is creaking change. It's a freaking home in a decent area in Southern California. They can't find $2 freaking million to bring out a product that is better than anything available now? Which by the way is enough to generate a business worth billions of dollars?

Not that $20 million is a big investment... For a hair loss cure it shouldn't be hard to come up with that kind of money. 

I say we can raise $2 millions in all the forums. In a year we can do it.

----------


## JulioGP

I totally agree with Thinning87. 

For investors, $ 2 million dollars is nothing so difficult. Still say that $ 20 million dollars either. 

Develop anything better than Minoxidil and Propecia would be a big step, do not understand why so much trouble in this investment.

----------


## 20goingon50

I don't understand. Surely they would easily be able to raise 2 million dollars for a product that would return that in a matter of days when released. That simply doesn't make sense to me and seems a little fishy as in my opinion if it was truly more effective than minox and propecia they would be fighting to get these things sorted as quickly as possible. 

On another note, 

THANK YOU DESMOND. Really inspiring what you are doing here and your information on your meeting with Dr. Atac and Dr. Linder truly made me very happy, as i didn't think we would have much to look forward to in the near future.

The idea that these companies are actually working as hard as they can to find a cure for this horrible disease, to the point they keep their own findings in the dark as to not give competitors ideas of what they're doing can give us all hope (though in an ideal world they would share their information as their main priority would be to help balding people not make as much money as they can). It seems some of these companies are a few years ahead of where we predicted.

Here's to hope and once again thank you Desmond. Keep the good news coming

----------


## Thinning87

I like the optimism but to me this is a Waterloo. Sorry. But we went from "we can consistently create new hair follicles" in June 2013 to "things are on hold because we can't find $2 million". 

Follica was supposed to be much closer than this. They were supposed to be testing fgf9 on humans by now, evaluating clinical trials for this method. 

These Germans are 3-4 years away from a phase 1 clinical trial. 

Damn.

----------


## walrus

> Follica was *supposed to be* much closer than this. They were *supposed to be* testing fgf9 on humans by now, evaluating clinical trials for this method.


 Says who?

----------


## Tacola

Either way, all the news is a big step in the right direction. 

A question: If it somehow would be possible to gather enough money so that Follica could release a product, how long will it take before this product becomes availible? There should not be any kind of problem gather this from an investor.

If this could come out and be more effective and same than those we have today, this would be a giant leap in the right direction and somehow a lifeline to hold on to while people are waiting for the "big thing".

I dunno who will come up with the cure. It can be Linder & Co, or it can come from the dark.

Thanks Desmond for sharing! Well earned drinks to night!  :Smile:

----------


## Arashi

First of all: wow Desmond, making friends with the top of the top researchers in the field, that's just beyond awesome  :Big Grin:  This trip is yielding so much more than I had hoped for.

Now about what you said:




> so far and the talks all convey the samemessage: "Many teams seem to have solved the DP culturing problem and have maintained the genetic markers necessary for hair formation."


 Then my question is (and please ask that to everybody) -> if we can culture DP cells to maintain the genetic info necessary for hair formation, then what's keeping us from a cure ? I mean, isn't it all about what Jahoda and Tsuji proved, that combining DP + epithelial cells = new hair ? And if it's not simple like that, then what is the current problem ?

Thanks Desmond and keep it up man  :Smile:

----------


## Hicks

> 3) I brought up the crowdfunding idea particularly with regards to Follica and he said the amount necessary is quite large. So I insisted on an actual amount and here's what he said: "US $2 million would bring out a product that would be more effective than Minoxidil and Propecia but would not give a bald person a full head of hair.


 Thanks man! Keep this up.

$2 million for a product that would be more effective than Minoxidil and Propecia.  3 things come to mind.

1. You're buying snake oil

2. It's already on the market some how.  They just need to find a way to market it as "New"

3. BS

----------


## hellouser

> 3) I brought up the crowdfunding idea particularly with regards to Follica and he said the amount necessary is quite large. So I insisted on an actual amount and here's what he said: "US $2 million would bring out a product that would be more effective than Minoxidil and Propecia but would not give a bald person a full head of hair. US $20 million will provide the kind of funding necessary to give someone who is already bald a full head of hair but it will take more years to accomplish".


 2 million dollars is an easy amount to collect given a global reach. Think of it this way; if only 1 out of 50 US citizens gave 50 cents, we'd have $3 million already... but we still have the rest of the world to reach out to.

This is a really easy goal.

Question now is; supposed we had that kind of money today and Follica was able to start phase III trials today; how long would Phase III take and how long before we'd be able to go in for treatment?

----------


## youngin

Thanks for all your hard work Desmond. This is very time consuming.

----------


## Almostthere

In my honest opinion, I don't believe they would release anything if you crowdfunded $2 million.  There's a reason why he threw out the $20 million for full head of hair.  In business you're always afraid of competition "the next big thing."  They are playing a very smart and conservative game.  They must protect themselves and their investors.  Their fear is that the amount of money and time it will cost to mass produce, market, etc will not outway the risk if someone else like Lauster's group comes out with an all out cure 7 8 9 yrs from now.  That's why in my opinion they will not produce a product that is better than fin or minox, they will wait and produce a product that will be revolutionary (takes out the risk).

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Also, audio & video quality of the talks seem very good. I'm having a bit of trouble with transferring it into premiere pro to edit the videos. I may have to take the videos back to Oz and ask my friends to help me with the editing in which case you guys may have to wait at least another week to watch them. I'm really sorry about that but this whole codec formats and frames pr second options are like a foreign language to me lol. Desmond.


 If you're still having an issue with Premiere Pro, what kind of an error message do you get when you try to import the video into Premiere?  You may want to get the freeware program called GSpot.  Just drag the video files into the window and the codec and frames per second is revealed.  With that information, you can start a new project in Premiere Pro and pre-select sequence settings.  Could possibly help.

A website called Zamar will will let your convert files into something more compatible with Premiere.  The free version only allows files up to 100Mb, which is pretty small for a video file.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## nameless

> In my honest opinion, I don't believe they would release anything if you crowdfunded $2 million.  There's a reason why he threw out the $20 million for full head of hair.  In business you're always afraid of competition "the next big thing."  They are playing a very smart and conservative game.  They must protect themselves and their investors.  Their fear is that the amount of money and time it will cost to mass produce, market, etc will not outway the risk if someone else like Lauster's group comes out with an all out cure 7 8 9 yrs from now.  That's why in my opinion they will not produce a product that is better than fin or minox, they will wait and produce a product that will be revolutionary (takes out the risk).


 
I think they would release a $2 mill cure (better than minox or propecia) because then they could get all of the business minoxidil/propecia get for the next 8 years until Lauster or whoever brings an all-out cure to market.

----------


## comb0ver

I've been lurking this forum for a long time. Just wanted to say how cool it is that this is happening. Whatever the news, it's encouraging that people can come together and achieve something like this.

I'm confused on one point though -- are the 'germans' who are still 3-4 years from phase 1 trials the same people that Desmond is excited about treatments with in the 'near future'?

Thanks in advance.

----------


## nameless

> First of all: wow Desmond, making friends with the top of the top researchers in the field, that's just beyond awesome  This trip is yielding so much more than I had hoped for.
> 
> Now about what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then my question is (and please ask that to everybody) -> if we can culture DP cells to maintain the genetic info necessary for hair formation, then what's keeping us from a cure ? I mean, isn't it all about what Jahoda and Tsuji proved, that combining DP + epithelial cells = new hair ? And if it's not simple like that, then what is the current problem ?
> 
> Thanks Desmond and keep it up man


 
I agree. It sounds like what Desmond is saying is that they have cured hair loss but I sense that they are not saying that. It's as if there are more problems to overcome. 

DP + epithelial + retain ALL genetic markets for hair inducement = cure. If Desmond is right then we just have to figure out how they are culturing dp cells while retaining ALL genetic markers for hair inducement.

----------


## BoSox

Thanks for all your hard work Desmond. Seems as though a cure is still years off.. Very disappointing. I will stay off these forums and try to be as happy as I can until a cure is out. Peace brothers.

----------


## Desmond84

> First of all: wow Desmond, making friends with the top of the top researchers in the field, that's just beyond awesome  This trip is yielding so much more than I had hoped for.
> 
> Now about what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then my question is (and please ask that to everybody) -> if we can culture DP cells to maintain the genetic info necessary for hair formation, then what's keeping us from a cure ? I mean, isn't it all about what Jahoda and Tsuji proved, that combining DP + epithelial cells = new hair ? And if it's not simple like that, then what is the current problem ?
> 
> Thanks Desmond and keep it up man


 Hahaha Arashi its a pleasure my man  :Smile:  Finally getting a clear picture of where we are is truly interesting. 

I actually asked exactly the same question from Dr Atac/Linder. We discussed Tsuji teams work and Dr Jahoda/Christiano. Their answer was very intriguing indeed and made me realise how far along they are. I'll let you know what they said once they give me the green light.

I got the answers to that question and it is VERY positive indeed albeit we are not there yet but very close.

 :Wink:

----------


## Desmond84

> If you're still having an issue with Premiere Pro, what kind of an error message do you get when you try to import the video into Premiere?  You may want to get the freeware program called GSpot.  Just drag the video files into the window and the codec and frames per second is revealed.  With that information, you can start a new project in Premiere Pro and pre-select sequence settings.  Could possibly help.
> 
> A website called Zamar will will let your convert files into something more compatible with Premiere.  The free version only allows files up to 100Mb, which is pretty small for a video file.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> forhair.com
> Cole Hair Transplant
> 1070 Powers Place
> Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
> ...


 Thanks brother  :Smile:  I actually skyped my friend tonight and tried to figure out what the problem is. It has something to do with the installation where my camera is not preloaded into the software. The only way to fix it is for him to install a patch or something. I'll keep you guys posted.

----------


## downandout

They finished phase 2 of trials?  Did they finish both 2A and 2B?  If so then all they need to do is raise enough money for the phase 3 and BOOM, we got a product better than propecia! So maybe 2 years after they raise the money, if everything went good..  

However, after hearing this, i'm not nearly excited about Follica as I was before.

----------


## Aik82

This is awesome Desmond! 

Good luck and let's hope for some good news!

----------


## Desmond84

> Thanks for all your hard work Desmond. Seems as though a cure is still years off.. Very disappointing. I will stay off these forums and try to be as happy as I can until a cure is out. Peace brothers.


 To Bosox and all of our members who are desperately waiting for a solution:

Guys I have said for well over 2 years now, we will not have a full blown cure as you would call it until early 2020's. That is due to the rigorous studies that is necessary to be conducted in order to prove safety and efficacy. These studies can take between 5-8 years and are quite expensive.

Our goal in terms of attending this conference was to see where the scientific community stands at this point in time and if we are on the right path to have a solution to AGA by 2020-2023. So far, all the signals point to a big YES and we should be really excited about that.

Apart from doing everything we can to support these scientists all we can do is live our lives to the fullest and have an optimistic vision of the future.

So don't lose all hope and join in dscussions whenever you feel like having a chat...

I also have some insight into why Aderans failed to achieve any impressive results and it was very much along the lines of what we had speculated on the forum. I'll post more about that when I get a chance...

Cheers guys. Another big day tomorrow.

Goodnght

----------


## Desmond84

Btw Arashi,

I just remembered. I just found out that Dr Nigam pulled out of his presentation for some unknown reasons! Thought you'd be interested to know  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

> To Bosox and all of our members who are desperately waiting for a solution:
> 
> Guys I have said for well over 2 years now, we will not have a full blown cure as you would call it until early 2020's. That is due to the rigorous studies that is necessary to be conducted in order to prove safety and efficacy. These studies can take between 5-8 years and are quite expensive.
> 
> Our goal in terms of attending this conference was to see where the scientific community stands at this point in time and if we are on the right path to have a solution to AGA by 2020-2023. So far, all the signals point to a big YES and we should be really excited about that.


 We're going to need a 'bridging' option until then. It's 2014 with another 6-9 years before we can sniff a cure to this disease. Pilofocus + CB should hold the fort until then... In the meantime Histogen needs to get off its ass and Follica's final Phase III trial needs to commence right now.

----------


## hellouser

> Btw Arashi,
> 
> I just remembered. I just found out that Dr Nigam pulled out of his presentation for some unknown reasons! Thought you'd be interested to know


 It may have something to do with the fact that I sent an email to all the main email addresses to the hair congress about Nigam's fraudulent activity along with CC'ing Nigam on two of his email addresses. This was last week.

=D

----------


## comb0ver

> We're going to need a 'bridging' option until then. It's 2014 with another 6-9 years before we can sniff a cure to this disease. Pilofocus + CB should hold the fort until then... In the meantime Histogen needs to get off its ass and Follica's final Phase III trial needs to commence right now.


 why do you think the world owes you anything man? It really doesn't.

I know it sucks but you have to learn to live your life. I've been lurking this forum for a long time, and it's cool you have so much energy and want to see a cure so much. 

But you have to focus on making yourself happy somehow, none of this stuff is gonna happen any time soon so you should probably take up bodybuilding or something instead. lol

----------


## HairBane

> We're going to need a 'bridging' option until then. It's 2014 with another 6-9 years before we can sniff a cure to this disease. Pilofocus + CB should hold the fort until then... In the meantime Histogen needs to get off its ass and Follica's final Phase III trial needs to commence right now.


 I was thinking the same thing. Damn, both Histogen and Follica are 1 phase of trial away from releasing their products. Thinking about it, if Follica (using wounding + lithium) can generate thin/vellus hair, maybe HSC would work well with that - http://youtu.be/_pUK7qRHfSU?t=10m50s . That would be a perfect bridge to a full cure. Anyway, it looks like Follica are pretty much where we thought they were, but I'm surprised they don't have funding.

Hope you're enjoying your trip Desmond, well done so far.

----------


## Aik82

> I like the optimism but to me this is a Waterloo. Sorry. But we went from "we can consistently create new hair follicles" in June 2013 to "things are on hold because we can't find $2 million". 
> 
> Follica was supposed to be much closer than this. They were supposed to be testing fgf9 on humans by now, evaluating clinical trials for this method. 
> 
> These Germans are 3-4 years away from a phase 1 clinical trial. 
> 
> Damn.


 I TOTALLY agree with you, man. Looks like the old "5 years away" are back in fashon. Nothing on the horizon. We will all get a total bald head before anything comes through guys. 

F*ck it.

----------


## hellouser

> I TOTALLY agree with you, man. Looks like the old "5 years away" are back in fashon. Nothing on the horizon. We will all get a total bald head before anything comes through guys. 
> 
> F*ck it.


 That's why I mentioned the bridging option. Whether a cure is out now or in 5 years, 10 years, whatever... its going to be costly so a bridging solution will cost you as well, it won't make a difference. You'll have the next X number of years to save your pennies for a future PERMANENT treatment.

Like I said, Histogen, Follica, CB and RU to hold us for the future treatment wouldn't be too terrible IF they work as they say they do.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

There may already be a preventive cure for MPB.  All of the current effective hair loss products are simply repackaged solutions to other medical problems.  If I had invested countless hours of research and a great deal of money into a product that shows promise of being more effective than finasteride or dutasteride, I wouldn't show my hand.

Who knows, the building blocks for a preventive cure may already exist.  My gut tells me it's an existing medication that just needs to be legally repackaged before anyone can sell it.  For instance a future topical formula that includes TM30089 could possibly stop male pattern baldness in its tracks if a guy destined to become a Norwood 6 begins applying it when he reaches puberty.

many different approaches. 

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## bigentries

I find it hard to believe they have something promising going on if they have troubles with funds

$20 millions is nothing in the medicine world. Unless he means it still requires a lot of research, which means it isn't a safe investment

----------


## hellouser

> Also, audio & video quality of the talks seem very good. I'm having a bit of trouble with transferring it into premiere pro to edit the videos. I may have to take the videos back to Oz and ask my friends to help me with the editing in which case you guys may have to wait at least another week to watch them. I'm really sorry about that but this whole codec formats and frames pr second options are like a foreign language to me lol


 How big are your original files and which format? If you need help with the files, let me know, I have an FTP served I can give you access to and can get the files exported for everyone to see via youtube.

----------


## hellouser

> I find it hard to believe they have something promising going on if they have troubles with funds
> 
> $20 millions is nothing in the medicine world. Unless he means it still requires a lot of research, which means it isn't a safe investment


 2 or 20 million dollars to have a better treatment than both finasteride and minoxidil would make a LOT of money. You *have to* underestimate the desperation for balding men and how much money is currently being spent on products that dont work IF you believe its not worth putting out even a slightly superior product.

The revenue they would make would definitely be able to cover the costs for ongoing trials including FGF-9.

----------


## Aik82

> That's why I mentioned the bridging option. Whether a cure is out now or in 5 years, 10 years, whatever... its going to be costly so a bridging solution will cost you as well, it won't make a difference. You'll have the next X number of years to save your pennies for a future PERMANENT treatment.
> 
> Like I said, Histogen, Follica, CB and RU to hold us for the future treatment wouldn't be too terrible IF they work as they say they do.


 Hellouser, you're right. 

I would ONLY spend my money (even a big amount of them) in something that will provide a definitive and permanent solution. I want my head FULL of hair again. That's the cure we are all waiting for in this thread. 

The rest is BS. I don't wanna look like a doll or have something that will make me feel unconfortable. 

I am losing my optimism, guys. I am just happy to read you here.

----------


## locke999

Honestly, I was hoping Follica would come out with something within the next 5 years so I don't take any of this as good news. 

2020-2023 is a while away and that is just an optimistic timeline.

----------


## downandout

how come Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg cant be balding..  We need their kinda funds to get this thing going..

----------


## nameless

> To Bosox and all of our members who are desperately waiting for a solution:
> 
> Guys I have said for well over 2 years now, we will not have a full blown cure as you would call it until early 2020's. That is due to the rigorous studies that is necessary to be conducted in order to prove safety and efficacy. These studies can take between 5-8 years and are quite expensive.
> 
> Our goal in terms of attending this conference was to see where the scientific community stands at this point in time and if we are on the right path to have a solution to AGA by 2020-2023. So far, all the signals point to a big YES and we should be really excited about that.
> 
> Apart from doing everything we can to support these scientists all we can do is live our lives to the fullest and have an optimistic vision of the future.
> 
> So don't lose all hope and join in dscussions whenever you feel like having a chat...
> ...


 
So then desmond are you saying that they have all of the basic resarch done and all that's left is the clinical trials? It sounds like that is what you are saying because if they can culture epithelial + DP and maintain ALL hair inductivity then that sounds like a basic cure that just needs the 5 - 8 years of testing. Am I right?

----------


## nameless

> how come Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg cant be balding..  We need their kinda funds to get this thing going..


 I don't understand why you are concerned with this issue. The only researcher seeking funding is Cotseralis/Follica. The rest of the researchers are moving full steam ahead. You are focused on the wrong thing IMO. Instead of focusing on Cotseralis's wounding experiments you should be focused on the cell therapies being moved forward by the other researchers.

----------


## HairBane

> how come Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg cant be balding..  We need their kinda funds to get this thing going..


 Or Elon Musk?

----------


## hellouser

> Or Elon Musk?


 Elon definitely had a hair transplant... thats without question. He could fund every hair loss initiative from Histogen to Dr. Lauster's team with his pocket change.

----------


## nameless

> Btw Arashi,
> 
> I just remembered. I just found out that Dr Nigam pulled out of his presentation for some unknown reasons! Thought you'd be interested to know


 I'm not as convinced as everyone else here that this is good news for the following reasons:

1. As far as I know he is the only doctor in the world who WAS willing to try these cell treatments on us early. I think that by shutting him down we have cut off our nose to spite our face.

2. People blame Nigam for not producing GREAT WOW results, but was that really his fault? Keep in mind that when he was doing cell treatments (months ago) he did not yet have the information how to culture DP cells while maintaining ALL hair inductivity. Desmond just got done telling us that the researchers who have had this information have been keeping it secret so we know that Nigam did not have the information. For all we know that is the only reason why Nigam's cell treatments did not work. For all we know if Nigam was still on board with us he could add new information (dp culture while maintaining hair inductivity) and he could start curing our hair loss now instead of us having to wait 8 years.

But we killed that possibility. Lovely. So now we can call wait 8 years for a cure.

----------


## toretto

As always..from the stars to the Stables..so disappointing..

----------


## hellouser

> how come Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg cant be balding..  We need their kinda funds to get this thing going..


 Steve Jobs was bald. He didn't help the cause. Many celebrities are bald and they haven't helped the cause either.

There's a reason:

They don't want to show inferiority/insecurity as it most often jeopardizes their career. They're celebrities for a reason... and usually the ones still on the big screen while bald dont care much as baldness has benefitted them; Bruce Willis, Ben Kingsley, Vin Diesel, etc.

----------


## nameless

> Elon definitely had a hair transplant... thats without question. He could fund every hair loss initiative from Histogen to Dr. Lauster's team with his pocket change.


 
Desmond are the researchers disclosing how they culture dp cells and epithelial cells while preserving ALL hair inductivity/trichogenicity?????

----------


## Almostthere

I don't know why everyone is so dissapointed.  I think this is great news.  Yes, many ppl want a bridge in between the next 6 yrs but the fact the companies aren't trying to release anything but a full cure is great.  It means that they know it's coming soon and don't want to risk releasing a half-uknowwhat product.  That ends up being completely worthless in 10 yrs.  Im excited.

----------


## hellouser

> I don't know why everyone is so dissapointed.  I think this is great news.  Yes, many ppl want a bridge in between the next 6 yrs but the fact the companies aren't trying to release anything but a full cure is great.  It means that they know it's coming soon and don't want to risk releasing a half-uknowwhat product.  That ends up being completely worthless in 10 yrs.  Im excited.


 I agree with this in a way; better to have a full solution rather than a half baked one.

HOWEVER, I'd pay for results of any kind right now anyway.... anything for me to hold onto what I have until that day comes. I cannot imagine my life being garbage for another 10 years.

----------


## artika

Desmond, 

First of all, thanks for all your efforts, you are great man!  :Smile: 

Secondly, do you think that Dr. Lauster's method could benefit those suffering from DUPA, i don't yet know if I do, but  I would feel safer if it would be curable (in some time)

----------


## ytterligare

Nice to hear that the cure is definetely here in 10 years, but we're all pissed. Something HAS to happen NOW!

----------


## sdsurfin

> Nice to hear that the cure is definetely here in 10 years, but we're all pissed. Something HAS to happen NOW!


 this forum is ridiculous.  Who said that the cure is definitely here in ten years? How can that even be inferred? From what I've read, there's nothing but more frustration and decades to wait for anything cosmetically useful. Propecia has stopped anyone from developing a safer alternative, because it's hard to get funding. Follicle -creating stem cell options are retardedly far away and need to go through extensive testing even once they are fully realized.  Cotsarellis didn't have anything good to say.  Just because a lot of research into stem cells is being done doesn't mean that this has absolutely any impact on the lives of men who are not in their teens right now. Sure, if you're that young then the odds of you hitting your thirties without something positive coming to market are slim, but for the rest of us none of this is good news.  Especially the fact that these guys can't get it together to raise 2 mil or even 20 mil, these are paltry sums in the grand scheme of things.  

I think the next initiative that this forum should undertake is to work with someone like cotsarellis to find decent funding.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone like elon musk was willing to throw down 20 mil on a cure if he sat down with someone like cotsarellis and hashed out the realities.  How can we help connect these people?

Also, it's taking dr. xu ages to get back to me about crowdfunding, and Desmond, is there any way you can email cotsarellis and ask him if there's any way he'd be down to do a similar crowdfunding effort? I really think all we would need is to have him on video saying that 2 million would provide a better treatment than propecia, and we could easily raise the money.  I don't think he would even need to go into specifics, he has enough credibility in the public sphere.

----------


## Haircure

> I'm not as convinced as everyone else here that this is good news for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. As far as I know he is the only doctor in the world who WAS willing to try these cell treatments on us early. I think that by shutting him down we have cut off our nose to spite our face.
> 
> 2. People blame Nigam for not producing GREAT WOW results, but was that really his fault? Keep in mind that when he was doing cell treatments (months ago) he did not yet have the information how to culture DP cells while maintaining ALL hair inductivity. Desmond just got done telling us that the researchers who have had this information have been keeping it secret so we know that Nigam did not have the information. For all we know that is the only reason why Nigam's cell treatments did not work. For all we know if Nigam was still on board with us he could add new information (dp culture while maintaining hair inductivity) and he could start curing our hair loss now instead of us having to wait 8 years.
> 
> But we killed that possibility. Lovely. So now we can call wait 8 years for a cure.


 Wow just wow, here's a guy who is a scammer and yet you still want him to work scamming others just so he might with the slimmest Of chances produce actual results?  Man you must be either really depressed or couldn't care less about other peoples sufferings, you do realize people aren't upset he didn't produce WOW results, it was because he didn't produce any and in fact did the opposite and ending up wasting people's money, depleting donor, and negatively affecting their health. So nameless please next time consider actually thinking about what you say before you type

----------


## jpm14

So they need only 2 million to have something better than the big 2 and they would take over a billion dollar industry and then have enough money to complete the complete cure and who knows the kind of money that would make ... Am I missing something here?

----------


## Almostthere

Jpm14,

Yes, it appears we are all missing something here.  He knows something that we all don't.  He's more familiar with the industry, knows the initial cost (which i doubt is just $2 million) and prob realizes though his product is better, it prob isn't significantly better than fin or minox.  He prob wants to use the money he can get to create an absolute cure. 

First, I'm in business development.  A client that we have is producing a simple cleaning chemical that will be sold in walmart and costco.  The initial shelf space cost, 60day advanced inventory and marketing will cost him $500k. That is just a simple product. Doubt it's just $2million.

There's obviously a reason why he can't get funding but replicel can.  Think lauster, or asian companies stand a better chance.

----------


## bigentries

> 2 or 20 million dollars to have a better treatment than both finasteride and minoxidil would make a LOT of money. You *have to* underestimate the desperation for balding men and how much money is currently being spent on products that dont work IF you believe its not worth putting out even a slightly superior product.
> 
> The revenue they would make would definitely be able to cover the costs for ongoing trials including FGF-9.


 That's exactly what I'm saying.

Even something similar to minox is a gold mine, there is no reason why they couldn't get even $200 millions easily
They probably don't have anything tangible at this point, it's just an hypothesis

----------


## Sogeking

> I agree with this in a way; better to have a full solution rather than a half baked one.
> 
> HOWEVER, I'd pay for results of any kind right now anyway.... anything for me to hold onto what I have until that day comes.


 I'm with you on this.
First I am really glad that we managed to get together and fund Desmond to go and talk to various researchers in the field and see what is going on.
Yes, in 10+ years there is a cure coming but still for a lot of us in twenties and on this is not so encouraging, we don't want to wait for 10+ years. Something that would at least stop our hair loss would be a godsend. 

I am down for crowdfunding Dr. Xu or Dr. Cotsarelis. In the mean time so far only CB and Replicel appear to be as some treatments coming before the end of the decade. And I am not too excited about their effectiveness.  

I believe that in the short term it would be better if someone manages to get donor regeneration to some degree viable in HTs. That would be awesome until the full cure comes.

----------


## nameless

> Wow just wow, here's a guy who is a scammer and yet you still want him to work scamming others just so he might with the slimmest Of chances produce actual results?  Man you must be either really depressed or couldn't care less about other peoples sufferings, you do realize people aren't upset he didn't produce WOW results, it was because he didn't produce any and in fact did the opposite and ending up wasting people's money, depleting donor, and negatively affecting their health. So nameless please next time consider actually thinking about what you say before you type


 I disagree with you. I saw patients who were injected with Dr. Nigam cells treatments who got modest regrowth. You are in fact wrong.

Also, you say he was scamming but was he really? He was selling a treatment that is lawful in the country where he practices - India. Since it's lawful that means it was not a scam. 

Minoxidil does not work well. Do you call minoxidil a scam? Of course not. Propecia does not work well. Do you call propecia a scam? Of course not. Minoxidil are no less a scam than Dr. Nigam's cell treatments are a scam. It's the same thing because none of these treatments get good results but they are all approved for use in the country where they are used. Dr. Nigam is using lawfully treatments in the country where he practices. If it's a scam for Dr. Nigam to use cell treatments (where it's lawfully approved to do so) then it's equally a scam for doctors to give out minoxidil or propecia anywhere since they don't work well either.

----------


## nameless

> Hahaha Arashi its a pleasure my man  Finally getting a clear picture of where we are is truly interesting. 
> 
> I actually asked exactly the same question from Dr Atac/Linder. We discussed Tsuji teams work and Dr Jahoda/Christiano. Their answer was very intriguing indeed and made me realise how far along they are. I'll let you know what they said once they give me the green light.
> 
> I got the answers to that question and it is VERY positive indeed albeit we are not there yet but very close.


 
Desmond is there someplace where these researchers will release a study depicting how they are culturing dp/epithelial cells while maintaining ALL hair induction/trichogenicity. I would like to see the recipe for how this is done. Is it possible to see that somewhere? Are these presentations put into a public journal and do they reveal all of the *how-to* information?

----------


## Buster

> how come Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg cant be balding..  We need their kinda funds to get this thing going..


 Bill Gates actually has a bald spot.

----------


## nameless

> Bill Gates actually has a bald spot.


 You guys are funny.

Bill Gates is not going to fund Cotseralis wounding treatment. LOL!

Other researchers are progressing with cell-based therapies so that means that Bill Gates does not need to fund Cotserlis's wounding therapy. Gates will simply wait for the progressing cell based therapies to come to market. He does not need to fund anyone.

----------


## hgs1989

from Desmond's interview with Cotsarelis, he seemed open to the idea of crowd funding. lets start a campaign to fund him. we only need to know how does his product work. if it is different than minoxidil and fin(PGD2 stuff) then enhanced results is expected combined. I think it will be a viable option. the initiative can be on a global scale. many kick starter projects succeeded. think about oculus rift and facebook.

----------


## hellouser

> from Desmond's interview with Cotsarelis, he seemed open to the idea of crowd funding. lets start a campaign to fund him. we only need to know how does his product work. if it is different than minoxidil and fin(PGD2 stuff) then enhanced results is expected combined. I think it will be a viable option. the initiative can be on a global scale. many kick starter projects succeeded. think about oculus rift and facebook.


 I'm opposed to any and all half-assed attempts of a crowdfunding. These things take months of planning and a team of dedicated people.

----------


## walrus

> Bill Gates actually has a bald spot.


 He is also unsympathetic:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_441819.html

"Rich people spend a lot more money on their own problems, like baldness, than they do to fight malaria," Gates told the Süddeutsche Zeitung.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/...tes-capitalism

Baldness is an easy target, there are plenty of other ailments of the 'developed world' that he could have singled out, but they wouldn't have been as headline grabbing.

----------


## hgs1989

> I'm opposed to any and all half-assed attempts of a crowdfunding. These things take months of planning and a team of dedicated people.


 you didn't need to be rude. I know that it will take us months if not a full year or more. I am saying that it is doable. and Please Lead us master. go make it a full-assed attempt.

----------


## hellouser

> He is also unsympathetic:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_441819.html
> 
> "Rich people spend a lot more money on their own problems, like baldness, than they do to fight malaria," Gates told the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
> 
> http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/...tes-capitalism
> 
> Baldness is an easy target, there are plenty of other ailments of the 'developed world' that he could have singled out, but they wouldn't have been as headline grabbing.


 He's also ignorant, as baldness gets little attention in research where as life threatening diseases and conditions receive billions of dollars. But it needs to be said, had he ran into a woman that was prime minister with hair loss that went for treatment, he'd NEVER had made a comment like that. Everyone outside of the hair loss community has deemed baldness as a requirement to mock.

Its disgusting.

----------


## hellouser

> you didn't need to be rude. I know that it will take us months if not a full year or more. I am saying that it is doable. and Please Lead us master. go make it a full-assed attempt.


 A lot of you guys seem to just think 'lets crowdfund, it'll be easy!' It's not easy, its very time consuming. It is, however as you already know, very possible to succeed.

I just don't have faith in many members willing to put in the effort. Otherwise, I and maybe a few others would be stuck on our own. Which is fine, I can take all the glory when it comes to doing something proactive... at least I'd know I contributed.

I think next week I'm going to start a thread point out all the necessary steps.

----------


## Arashi

> Hahaha Arashi its a pleasure my man * Finally getting a clear picture of where we are is truly interesting.* 
> 
> I actually asked exactly the same question from Dr Atac/Linder. We discussed Tsuji teams work and Dr Jahoda/Christiano. Their answer was very intriguing indeed and made me realise how far along they are. I'll let you know what they said once they give me the green light.
> 
> *I got the answers to that question and it is VERY positive indeed albeit we are not there yet but very close.*


 That's just awesome Desmond, can't wait to hear it !! This was basically my personal goal for the conference (to find out where we are and what's standing between us and a cure) so you've already found that out, can't wait to hear it !!




> I also have some insight into why Aderans failed to achieve any impressive results and it was very much along the lines of what we had speculated on the forum. I'll post more about that when I get a chance...


 This also is extremely interesting man ... Looking forward to hear more !

----------


## jjo

> Bill Gates actually has a bald spot.


 
forget about Gates.. there are many balding stars that we know and probably many who are fighting it and hiding it


matthew mcconaughey
jude law
travolta
Kiefer Sutherland
Jason Statham

etc etc etc etc..

even donald trump

it's everywhere

get these guys together to privately fund for a cure

----------


## Arashi

And LOL that they blocked Nigam from speaking  :Big Grin:  I'm very happy with that. I know for a fact that for him this was ALL about marketing, he wanted to put pictures of him speaking on this conference all over the internet, just to give himself credibility. I'm so happy they saw through it. Hopefully Nigam will be banned from all future conferences too.

----------


## Arashi

> I'm not as convinced as everyone else here that this is good news for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. As far as I know he is the only doctor in the world who WAS willing to try these cell treatments on us early. I think that by shutting him down we have cut off our nose to spite our face.


 LOL. You are so funny JarJarbinx. You want Nigam to perform some cutting edge technique on you ? Look at Boldy, Nigam cant even do a regular hair transplant, he implanted grafts upside down and you want this guy to operate on you ? Look at Wesley, the guy almost died and you want Nigam to do the same to you ? Sorry but that's just absurd. We can use Nigam exactly like a pain in the ass. Forget about that guy. If a cure sees the light, then there are tons of others, CAPABLE doctors who actually DO know what they're doing, who want to make a few million dollars. No need for Nigam at all.

----------


## sascha

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=280033615484808 
Hope to see this face expression in all of us someday

----------


## jjo

> A lot of you guys seem to just think 'lets crowdfund, it'll be easy!' It's not easy, its very time consuming. It is, however as you already know, very possible to succeed.
> 
> I just don't have faith in many members willing to put in the effort. Otherwise, I and maybe a few others would be stuck on our own. Which is fine, I can take all the glory when it comes to doing something proactive... at least I'd know I contributed.
> 
> I think next week I'm going to start a thread point out all the necessary steps.


 
Hell I don't know you but you seem like a resourceful guy and have connections

why not concentrate some effort to get in touch with some famous people and see what you can come up with?

----------


## hellouser

> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=280033615484808 
> Hope to see this face expression in all of us someday


 I hope the positional good theory is rendered useless one day where all of us here on the forum can experience that feeling.

So far, being a balding man feels like society wants us to remain at the bottom of the totem pole. Time to change that... perhaps a cure for human greed and selfishness rather than a cure for baldness?

----------


## hellouser

> Hell I don't know you but you seem like a resourceful guy and have connections
> 
> why not concentrate some effort to get in touch with some famous people and see what you can come up with?


 I need a presentation first; name, logo, website mockup, strategies for public outreach, plans for distribution of funds, assigned roles of contributors, etc. etc. etc. You can't show potential researchers chicken shit and expect chicken salad.

This is a BIG project that were thinking of thats bigger than any one of us. It has its payoffs, but not without a certain 'price'

----------


## nameless

> LOL. You are so funny JarJarbinx. You want Nigam to perform some cutting edge technique on you ? Look at Boldy, Nigam cant even do a regular hair transplant, he implanted grafts upside down and you want this guy to operate on you ? Look at Wesley, the guy almost died and you want Nigam to do the same to you ? Sorry but that's just absurd. We can use Nigam exactly like a pain in the ass. Forget about that guy. If a cure sees the light, then there are tons of others, CAPABLE doctors who actually DO know what they're doing, who want to make a few million dollars. No need for Nigam at all.


 Ok Arishi then please find us a different doctor who will do it. But do know that all doctors have made mistakes. Still, if you have a different doctor we could have do this I'm all ears. 

One piece of information that I will give you that might be helpful to you in finding a different doctor for us. I read about an anti-aging doctor in the Caribbean who is using cell injections that are not approved in the USA but are lawful where he is practicing. I think some millionaire old man is running the clinic and they showed his pic and he does look younger than his actual years. 

Since you live in the Caribbean perhaps you are the exact person who could spearhead a search for a doctor we can be happy with. Truth to tell, I would like to meet you anyway. I think it would be great if we went to a doctor in the Caribbean, got our hair back, and then have a big weekend party in the Caribbean and stay in touch and share how things turn out in our lives once we have our hair back. That sounds really cool to me.

----------


## jjo

> I need a presentation first; name, logo, website mockup, strategies for public outreach, plans for distribution of funds, assigned roles of contributors, etc. etc. etc. You can't show potential researchers chicken shit and expect chicken salad.
> 
> This is a BIG project that were thinking of thats bigger than any one of us. It has its payoffs, but not without a certain 'price'


 
that's what i mean, you have a mind and vision for something like this.

forget about putting money together to send some guy to a conference... lets put money for getting us together along with some famous people with money and get this done

i imagine a guy like jude law feels the pain just like us.. maybe even more cause he's in the spotlight all the time and was considered a real handsome guy

----------


## sascha

> I hope the positional good theory is rendered useless one day where all of us here on the forum can experience that feeling.
> 
> So far, being a balding man feels like society wants us to remain at the bottom of the totem pole. Time to change that... perhaps a cure for human greed and selfishness rather than a cure for baldness?


 Can´t agree more. Well, sadly it is more likely that we get a cure for baldness. OK I am totally not sad about that  :Wink:  , it is all about being confident and feel great in your own skin I think that is the key to great success. If Cotsarelis wasn´t bull*ing or missleading on purpose, you can count on me to make as much people aware of this possibility as possible. A good bridge-treatment is needed guys!!

----------


## rdawg

This is extremely positive news and exactly what I was hoping for.

It seems like ALOT of progress is being made behind the scenes privately, as they are worried about competition.

I just want to know which solution is closest? and if we can get the 2 million better than Pro/min solution that Follica mentioned!

----------


## Arashi

> Ok Arishi then please find us a different doctor who will do it. But do know that all doctors have made mistakes. Still, if you have a different doctor we could have do this I'm all ears. 
> 
> One piece of information that I will give you that might be helpful to you in finding a different doctor for us. I read about an anti-aging doctor in the Caribbean who is using cell injections that are not approved in the USA but are lawful where he is practicing. I think some millionaire old man is running the clinic and they showed his pic and he does look younger than his actual years. 
> 
> Since you live in the Caribbean perhaps you are the exact person who could spearhead a search for a doctor we can be happy with. Truth to tell, I would like to meet you anyway. I think it would be great if we went to a doctor in the Caribbean, got our hair back, and then have a big weekend party in the Caribbean and stay in touch and share how things turn out in our lives once we have our hair back. That sounds really cool to me.


 JarJar, once the info is out on how to do this, there are TONS of doctors willing to become millionaires and offer it before official trials ends, mark my words.

----------


## Imalmostbald

> JarJar, once the info is out on how to do this, there are TONS of doctors willing to become millionaires and offer it before official trials ends, mark my words.


 Don't be that naive you think you will obtain the technical data and knowledge when the cure is out? Stay objective as you always do lol.

----------


## Maxis

> Ok Arishi then please find us a different doctor who will do it. But do know that all doctors have made mistakes. Still, if you have a different doctor we could have do this I'm all ears. 
> 
> One piece of information that I will give you that might be helpful to you in finding a different doctor for us. I read about an anti-aging doctor in the Caribbean who is using cell injections that are not approved in the USA but are lawful where he is practicing. I think some millionaire old man is running the clinic and they showed his pic and he does look younger than his actual years. 
> 
> Since you live in the Caribbean perhaps you are the exact person who could spearhead a search for a doctor we can be happy with. Truth to tell, I would like to meet you anyway. I think it would be great if we went to a doctor in the Caribbean, got our hair back, and then have a big weekend party in the Caribbean and stay in touch and share how things turn out in our lives once we have our hair back. That sounds really cool to me.


 The man is called Peter Nygard, the clinic he set up is called Nygard Biotech.

----------


## nameless

> JarJar, once the info is out on how to do this, there are TONS of doctors willing to become millionaires and offer it before official trials ends, mark my words.


 Yea but you're in a good position to make that happen since you live in the Caribbean and there are already doctors there doing cell injections for the aging process that are more advanced than the aging injections allowed in America.  The Caribbean already has the exact type of doctors that we need and they are set-up in locations where it's legal for them to do cell therapies. And the Caribbean is a beautiful location, which makes it the perfect location for us all to become beautiful again. Plus it's close to the USA. Arishi if the info comes out you are the man of the hour who can get us a great doctor to do this. 

I will try to find video of that old guy who set up an anti-aging cell injection clinic in the Caribbean. Te is not the actual doctor, he just set up the clinic and owns it. It likes he has set it up smartly but without a lot of frills so the clinic is only what it needs to be to get the job done for the anti-aging injections. I bet he would be interested.

----------


## nameless

> The man is called Peter Nygard, the clinic he set up is called Nygard Biotech.


 Thanks for the man's name. Great find!!!! 

Arishi if we find out all the necessary info for hair cell therapy could you please start reading about Peter Nygard and his clinic? It would be great if you were fully informed. I think that this guy might jump at it and he might even do us a discount from bringing this information to him. I think you could mention the possibility of a discount for TBT members since TBT brought it to him. He could make a fortune and he is into money for sure.

----------


## CAlex

First off, thanks Desmond and everyone who contributed money and helped plan this. It is the first successful group effort Ive seen on here and may lead to future fundraising etc.

I look at Desmonds trip to the conference and sum it up in 3 ways

1) Great for us/Des to "BE" at the conference and actually hear the facts first hand in terms of where the research is.

2) Great news for anyone who has very young children or expecting because the cure seems to still be 8-20 years away (I know that sounds long and im just pulling numbers from nowhere) But remember its been 6 years since Dr.Cost 2008 msnbc appearance and the cure would be on the shelves in 2-3 years and follica is still not close to market.


3) Bitter pill for the rest of us. Doesnt seem like foll/his/repl are making the headway we had expected and none may get to market. It looks doubtful we are getting anything in the next 3-5 yrs. 

Great progress is being made still so many years to go.

P.S.* "US $2 million would bring out a product that would be more effective than Minoxidil and Propecia but would not give a bald person a full head of hair."*

This makes me not trust Dr. C at all any more. He might be a good researcher but his timelines are always b.s.  If they currently had a product they could get to market for 2mill and would give better results than prop/minox it would be on the news once released.

There would be no enormous cost of educating the market. Every current guy on minox/prop would use the follica product/treatment and the $2million would be recouped in less than a week.

----------


## bigentries

> forget about Gates.. there are many balding stars that we know and probably many who are fighting it and hiding it
> 
> 
> matthew mcconaughey
> jude law
> travolta
> Kiefer Sutherland
> Jason Statham
> 
> ...


 People see it as an investment.

Ok, every other bald guy in the world gives one dollar. What then?

I don't get why people are so eager to give money without an action plan. Imagine if they used all the money to study baldness in rats

Aderans got a pretty decent cash flow for years and it lead to nowhere, same with Intercytex

The fact that Histogen and Follica are struggling with funding tells you that they haven't convinced anyone that the money will lead to a future treatment

----------


## nameless

> First off, thanks Desmond and everyone who contributed money and helped plan this. It is the first successful group effort Ive seen on here and may lead to future fundraising etc.
> 
> I look at Desmonds trip to the conference and sum it up in 3 ways
> 
> 1) Great for us/Des to "BE" at the conference and actually hear the facts first hand in terms of where the research is.
> 
> 2) Great news for anyone who has very young children or expecting because the cure seems to still be 8-20 years away (I know that sounds long and im just pulling numbers from nowhere) But remember its been 6 years since Dr.Cost 2008 msnbc appearance and the cure would be on the shelves in 2-3 years and follica is still not close to market.
> 
> 
> ...


 
I would be hesitant to chip in. He specifically said the treatment would be somewhat better than minox/propecia so that is not a lot of improvement. I don't think it's worth the trouble. I would rather have a better cure. Cell therapy is the way to go. Cotseralis has had his chance to being a wounding treatment to market and he has failed. I think we should move on to the cell based stuff and move on from Follica.

----------


## nameless

> People see it as an investment.
> 
> Ok, every other bald guy in the world gives one dollar. What then?
> 
> I don't get why people are so eager to give money without an action plan. Imagine if they used all the money to study baldness in rats
> 
> Aderans got a pretty decent cash flow for years and it lead to nowhere, same with Intercytex
> 
> The fact that Histogen and Follica are struggling with funding tells you that they haven't convinced anyone that the money will lead to a future treatment


 
+ a BIG one. 

We should move on TO Cell therapies and move FROM Follica.

----------


## hellouser

> People see it as an investment.
> 
> Ok, every other bald guy in the world gives one dollar. What then?
> 
> I don't get why people are so eager to give money without an action plan. Imagine if they used all the money to study baldness in rats
> 
> Aderans got a pretty decent cash flow for years and it lead to nowhere, same with Intercytex
> 
> The fact that Histogen and Follica are struggling with funding tells you that they haven't convinced anyone that the money will lead to a future treatment


 That's why I've repeated numerous times that crowdfunding should happen once we have concise evidence from the researchers that YES, WE CAN GROW FULL TERMINAL HAIR GROWING FOLLICLES WITH COLOUR IN ANY NUMBER DE NOVO ON HUMAN SCALP.

Until that happens, we're basically taking a shot in the dark. I always had a gut feeling that Dr. Lauster's work was the holy grail... I'm ready to go ****ing balls out on a crowdfunding campaign if its legit. I'm NOT wasting my time on Aderans. Histogen on the other hand, would be a fantastic bridging solution, so if they actually didnt **** around, I'd be more than willing to support them if they committed to a commercial release.

----------


## ytterligare

Let's wait for what Desmond will find out in the next 2 days and listen to him. I'm sure he'll know better than all of us what we can do.

----------


## bigentries

> That's why I've repeated numerous times that crowdfunding should happen once we have concise evidence from the researchers that YES, WE CAN GROW FULL TERMINAL HAIR GROWING FOLLICLES WITH COLOUR IN ANY NUMBER DE NOVO ON HUMAN SCALP.
> 
> Until that happens, we're basically taking a shot in the dark. I always had a gut feeling that Dr. Lauster's work was the holy grail... I'm ready to go ****ing balls out on a crowdfunding campaign if its legit. I'm NOT wasting my time on Aderans. Histogen on the other hand, would be a fantastic bridging solution, so if they actually didnt **** around, I'd be more than willing to support them if they committed to a commercial release.


 Everyone that thinks otherwise should read the fiasco that happened two weeks before Histogen released their last results

People came close to opening that kickstarter account, everyone that asked for some skepticism was labeled as pessimistic, was wished baldness, etc.

Then Histogen released the info from the trial and everyone stopped posting about it.

People need to start thinking logically and stop giving in to the excitement of a possible cure.

Better to invest that money in case something comes out in 10 years instead of  thinking into giving free money

I said it before, if someone has a cure in their hands, they don't need or want our money before it gets into the market

----------


## hellouser

> Better to invest that money in case something comes out in 10 years instead of  thinking into giving free money


 The hell? Nobody is expecting a downpayment on a house as a monetary contribution. As I said earlier; if 1 in 50 americans donated only 50 cents, we'd have 3 million dollars, more than enough to fulfill follica's needs.




> I said it before, if someone has a cure in their hands, they don't need or want our money before it gets into the market


 If that were true, Follica wouldn't be in need of 2 million dollars right now.

----------


## Thinning87

> A lot of you guys seem to just think 'lets crowdfund, it'll be easy!' It's not easy, its very time consuming. It is, however as you already know, very possible to succeed.
> 
> I just don't have faith in many members willing to put in the effort. Otherwise, I and maybe a few others would be stuck on our own. Which is fine, I can take all the glory when it comes to doing something proactive... at least I'd know I contributed.
> 
> I think next week I'm going to start a thread point out all the necessary steps.


 I disagree that it's so hard. We just need to get 5 guys to share their contact info privately and work on it on the side.

We sent Desmond to a freaking conference in South Korea!

----------


## TravisB

Oh come on! It's obvious that Cotsarelis is bullshitting

$2 million to release something better than Propecia and Minox, and $20 million to release a full cure?

****ing LOL

That money is ****ing NOTHING

It looks like this whole hairloss research industry is one big joke and a scam

All these years and they can't even release a simple thing better than Propecia, let alone a full cure

I'm quite convinced now that if any cure will ever come out, it be hair multiplication or cell therapies, not some wounding or some other bullshit from Follica/Histogen/Replicel or other scammers of that kind. Of course it won't be anytime soon. We're talking decades.

Next realistic thing and only thing which I believe in seems to be CB-03-01. If it will be able to stop hairloss completely + give some moderate regrowth it will be brilliant

----------


## hellouser

> I disagree that it's so hard. We just need to get 5 guys to share their contact info privately and work on it on the side.
> 
> We sent Desmond to a freaking conference in South Korea!


 Sure, but what are you going to present? Anyone who's going to need to have your interests will want to see a presentation;

You: Hi, wanna give money to cure baldness through crowdfunding?
Celeb: What's crowdfunding?
You: An international effort through various platforms to raise awareness and funding for a specific goal; baldness cure.
Celeb: Ok, how does it work?
You: People go online and make donations.
Celeb: Where do they make the donation?
You: On our website.
Celeb: What's the website?

And this is where things go downhill. They're going to want to see the site, how it functions, whats on it, who else is partnered, mission statements, total amount raised thus far, name, logo, promotional videos, posters, media kits, social media platforms, etc. etc. I came up with a brilliant idea the other day;

Since men receive zero sympathy for baldness (this isn't up for debate), women are far more likely to have an outpouring of support. However, even this would be somewhat 'played out' with women because nobody ever sees women as bald to the degree that men are. However... if you REALLY want to play with people's emotions and play the sympathy card:

CHILDREN. 

And I'm talking 6 years and younger. Show an innocent and adorable child thats a burn victim with the prospect of having hair, or even being given hair, seeing them go from absolute rock bottom feeling to complete bliss and their smiles and you'll INSTANTLY having people sobbing over this.

----------


## joachim

oh my god... although desmonds fantastic efforts and some good news it's still very dissapointing... waiting for another 10 years is no option at all. we have to quickly find out what's holding dr. lauster/linder back from starting phase 1 sooner. is it a technical problem with the dp culturing or is it something else? i hope they let desmond explain the technical details to us. if we can accelerate the process with money somehow, then we should put all the crowdfunding energy into their technology.
i assume they are able to create hairs with all required properties already, but maybe the reactor is not yet 100% efficient. maybe only 3 of 10 hairs are developing into fully functional follicles or something like that. if that's the case, we are still talking of serious hair multiplication, even it needs more rounds to reach the right amount of hair, therefore more expensive, too. i believe, the germans want to optimize this stuff before starting trials.

but i don't want to accept that it looks like they have cracked the code already but still waiting years to start phase 1. if they have a quasi-solution already, we should get to know about it.

----------


## TravisB

> Since men receive zero sympathy for baldness (this isn't up for debate), women are far more likely to have an outpouring of support. However, even this would be somewhat 'played out' with women because nobody ever sees women as bald to the degree that men are. However... if you REALLY want to play with people's emotions and play the sympathy card:
> 
> CHILDREN. 
> 
> And I'm talking 6 years and younger. Show an innocent and adorable child thats a burn victim with the prospect of having hair, or even being given hair, seeing them go from absolute rock bottom feeling to complete bliss and their smiles and you'll INSTANTLY having people sobbing over this.


 Lol isn't that the truth?

NO ONE gives a **** about suffering of bald adult men or takes them seriously

Bald women will receive WAY more sympathy 

But bald children would receive even more sympathy

Baldness sympathy meter:

Children>Women>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Adult Men

So yeah, bald children would be the best for playing with emotions

----------


## Thinning87

> Sure, but what are you going to present? Anyone who's going to need to have your interests will want to see a presentation;
> 
> You: Hi, wanna give money to cure baldness through crowdfunding?
> Celeb: What's crowdfunding?
> You: An international effort through various platforms to raise awareness and funding for a specific goal; baldness cure.
> Celeb: Ok, how does it work?
> You: People go online and make donations.
> Celeb: Where do they make the donation?
> You: On our website.
> ...


 I disagree. We don't have to pitch rich people. Just a big crowd funding campaign. 

All we need to do is:

0 find a group of 5 users among ourselves (I volunteer) with the right mix of skills to work on the following steps privately, sharing our own private info amongst ourselves. We will update the forum on our status. The team should include people with both website creation/ crowd funding skills / knowledge of the science 

1 choose the team to back 

2 contact them and ask them if they will accept the money 

3 in return they will have to collaborate with us by providing us with a decent outline detailing how much money they need, what goal they think they can achieve with it, and how long it should take them more and less. 

4 launch website marketing what the recipients have given us in #3 with a crowd funding link (like those "sign the petition and donate $10)


It's that easy. Anyone can donate $10. We can reach out to millions of people and the money will flow in very fast. 




> oh my god... although desmonds fantastic efforts and some good news it's still very dissapointing... waiting for another 10 years is no option at all. we have to quickly find out what's holding dr. lauster/linder back from starting phase 1 sooner. is it a technical problem with the dp culturing or is it something else? i hope they let desmond explain the technical details to us. if we can accelerate the process with money somehow, then we should put all the crowdfunding energy into their technology.
> i assume they are able to create hairs with all required properties already, but maybe the reactor is not yet 100% efficient. maybe only 3 of 10 hairs are developing into fully functional follicles or something like that. if that's the case, we are still talking of serious hair multiplication, even it needs more rounds to reach the right amount of hair, therefore more expensive, too. i believe, the germans want to optimize this stuff before starting trials.
> 
> but i don't want to accept that it looks like they have cracked the code already but still waiting years to start phase 1. if they have a quasi-solution already, we should get to know about it.


 Agreed

----------


## joachim

follica is a joke. what about the BS talk where they say they are VERY CLOSE to releasing a product to end the combover stories? is 10 years the definition of very close?

so disappointing.
the 2 million would be no problem at all, but of what kind of product is cots talking about? we have the wounding stuff (with the help of lithium and fgf9) and the pgd2 stories. both are many years away. so what the hell is he meaning when he's talking about a 2 million product?

i don't know what to think of cots anymore. maybe money is truely a problem for him to take the research to the next level. but i somehow feel he is not eager to solve the problems at all.
he's a big name in the hairloss industry, and he would have the power to get the right people and investors together to speed up the whole thing. but as many others, he's only a researcher which tinkers around for decades, publishing some papers and gets some fame in the industry, and that's it. only participating on the BBQ, but not eager to find the ultimate solution. if he wants money for more advanced research, they have to show much more transparency and show where they stand today.
man, they even patented the laser for the wounding stuff. and still 10 years away? that's crazy.

----------


## nameless

> Lol isn't that the truth?
> 
> NO ONE gives a **** about suffering of bald adult men or takes them seriously
> 
> Bald women will receive WAY more sympathy 
> 
> But bald children would receive even more sympathy
> 
> Baldness sympathy meter:
> ...


 
Are you aware that this plan you are talking about involves a long LONG wait until you get relief? You would still have to do all clinical trials and then submit to FDA and all of that would take about 7 - 8 years. Are you really willing to wait 7 - 8 years?

----------


## hellouser

> I disagree. We don't have to pitch rich people. Just a big crowd funding campaign. 
> 
> All we need to do is:
> 
> 0 find a group of 5 users among ourselves (I volunteer) with the right mix of skills to work on the following steps privately, sharing our own private info amongst ourselves. We will update the forum on our status. The team should include people with both website creation/ crowd funding skills / knowledge of the science 
> 
> 1 choose the team to back 
> 
> 2 contact them and ask them if they will accept the money 
> ...


 Next week I'll be posting a comprehensive list of roles required for such a venture. I've worked on a cancer research fund before, so this isn't new to me. You'll see what's required to make this work properly. 

Indiegogo (a crowdfunding site) has a pretty awesome and thorough explanation of what should be done for a crowdfunding campaign to be successful:

http://go.indiegogo.com/playbook/life-cycle-phase

----------


## hellouser

> follica is a joke. what about the BS talk where they say they are VERY CLOSE to releasing a product to end the combover stories? is 10 years the definition of very close?


 They finished Phase II last year and have only 1 phase remaining... thats pretty close to a release.

----------


## nameless

> They finished Phase II last year and have only 1 phase remaining... thats pretty close to a release.


 Only 1 phase remaining if you would be happy with a treatment that is a little better than minoxidil or propecia.

----------


## bigentries

> They finished Phase II last year and have only 1 phase remaining... thats pretty close to a release.


 But what trials?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=14773&page=5

People were claiming those trials in advanced stage are just the lithium trials, there was conflicting reports about what stage follica really is

----------


## joachim

all i can tell is: money can move mountains!!!

if linder/lauster say, with the right amount of money, they can optimize their bioreactor within 3 years (or even less) and willing to sell it to interested doctors in the carribian or wherever else to enable earlier treatments, then i can tell you, i'm able to get millions of dollars ready, from a lot of different sponsors and big companies. even no need for crowdfunding, although it would be also very helpful and raise awareness all over the world.

i think hellouser is the best one for this job. i see his frustration with all the incompetent researchers and at the same time his eagerness to change the world for a better. this is exactly what we need here.
i want to thank you for your efforts and your passion for solving that disease. 
along with desmond and arashi, you form the golden trio here. the contribution of you three is awesome, and i hope you never lose your good spirit.

i really hope you move forward with the crowdfunding idea... i believe, once a company can show us a working quasi-cure (e.g. lindner) which only has to be optimized and go through trials, then 100 million usd will be reached within 6 months. we only have to raise awareness all over the world. celebs should get to know about the campaign and that there is a solution  close. many of them will then pitch in a lot of money. rooney, travolta, jude law, and sooooooo many others. also big CEOs and managers who have millions ready on their bank account will pitch some hundred thousand in, once they are aware of the campain.

but the 100 million question is: what the f*** is holding all the researching teams back? i hope desmond has the right answer and allowed to talk about it. otherwise we seriously should try to get in touch with lindner and talk about the next possible steps. money needed or not? earlier release in different countries possible or not? i can't wait anymore.
what a shame we are in 2014 and hairloss is still such a depressing problem.

----------


## hellouser

> Only 1 phase remaining if you would be happy with a treatment that is a little better than minoxidil or propecia.


 You have nothing to base that on that its a little better. Even if it were, it'd still be better than the best we have available today. Yeah, we should have a cure by now, but I would definitely go in for a treatment if available.

----------


## hellouser

> But what trials?
> 
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=14773&page=5
> 
> People were claiming those trials in advanced stage are just the lithium trials, there was conflicting reports about what stage follica really is


 Desmond just had Dr. Cotsarelis tell him that Follica finished Phase II last year.

----------


## bigentries

> Desmond just had Dr. Cotsarelis tell him that Follica finished Phase II last year.


 That's the thing, they also said the same thing last year to everyone, while they also talked about "pre clinical trials" elsewhere

No one in that thread understood what it meant. Apparently the only trial registered that went to Phase II was the lithium trial, but they seem to have other things going on

----------


## Thinning87

> Next week I'll be posting a comprehensive list of roles required for such a venture. I've worked on a cancer research fund before, so this isn't new to me. You'll see what's required to make this work properly. 
> 
> Indiegogo (a crowdfunding site) has a pretty awesome and thorough explanation of what should be done for a crowdfunding campaign to be successful:
> 
> http://go.indiegogo.com/playbook/life-cycle-phase


 Very good post. I will read this tonight

----------


## nameless

> You have nothing to base that on that its a little better. Even if it were, it'd still be better than the best we have available today. Yeah, we should have a cure by now, but I would definitely go in for a treatment if available.


 
I've been focused on work all day today but it is my recollection that Desmond said that Cotseralis told him that for $2 mill he could get a treatment to market that would be slightly stronger than minoxidil/propecia. Now I admit that I've been focused on work all day and haven't seen Desmond's post for hours so I definitely could be misquoting him. 

The thing is that I would not want to go through a lot of trouble for a treatment that was only a little better than minox/propecia. It isn't going to improve my appearance much so I would not bother with it myself. Now if you have a small amount of loss then it might be more interesting to you.

----------


## Thinning87

> Desmond just had Dr. Cotsarelis tell him that Follica finished Phase II last year.


 I promise you he is referring to the well known phase 2A they finished a couple of years ago

----------


## Maxis

If Follica truly has something promising then why aren't they getting continues funding from the VC firms that already funded their series A and B rounds?

----------


## joachim

> They finished Phase II last year and have only 1 phase remaining... thats pretty close to a release.


 are you talking about the lithium stuff? wounding with lithium lotion?
would be a good of course. if it's better than minox and fin. something to bridge the gap before a full cure.

and if they get 2 million from us, how long does it take to release it? i assume at least 3 years.
that's no option.

i would say this to cots: we will easily get you the 2 millions but under the following conditions: start phase 3 which is required to complete the fda BS, but allow others in unrestricted countries to license your technology and enable treatments NOW. alternatively, he doesn't have to license it to others and reveal his know how but then he have to set up a clinic in one of these countries instead. i think we all agree that we don't care about phase 3 at all if phase 1 and phase 2 showed safety and some cosmetically good results already, even if not perfect and far from a full head of hair.

if he agrees to that, i'll prepare the 2millions cash for him, within weeks =)
treatment NOW is the only option. not 10 years, not 5, and not even 2 years. (assuming that the wounding with lithium technology is available already)

----------


## rdawg

> If Follica truly has something promising then why aren't they getting continues funding from the VC firms that already funded their series A and B rounds?


 Same thing could be asked of Histogen.

It's possible that the companies funding this stuff feel that the money needed to continue the trials isnt worth it unless it's a full blown cure.

It costs millions to bring this stuff to market so some of them may not feel the risk is justified if the product is only 10% better than Minoxidil for example but costs twice as much. 

return of investment right. 

However we of course want more options and I think these companies are wrong, I guarentee you many people would spend the extra money just for another option. Min+Fin only maintain for guys like me with agressive hairloss at a young age(22). 

I think Crowdfunding should be used, I think these guys underestimate how much we'd be willing to invest.

----------


## hellouser

> are you talking about the lithium stuff? wounding with lithium lotion?
> would be a good of course. if it's better than minox and fin. something to bridge the gap before a full cure.
> 
> and if they get 2 million from us, how long does it take to release it? i assume at least 3 years.
> that's no option.
> 
> i would say this to cots: we will easily get you the 2 millions but under the following conditions: start phase 3 which is required to complete the fda BS, but allow others in unrestricted countries to license your technology and enable treatments NOW. alternatively, he doesn't have to license it to others and reveal his know how but then he have to set up a clinic in one of these countries instead. i think we all agree that we don't care about phase 3 at all if phase 1 and phase 2 showed safety and some cosmetically good results already, even if not perfect and far from a full head of hair.
> 
> if he agrees to that, i'll prepare the 2millions cash for him, within weeks =)
> treatment NOW is the only option. not 10 years, not 5, and not even 2 years. (assuming that the wounding with lithium technology is available already)


 It won't be up to Dr. Cotsarelis to decide on this but rather up to Follica and Puretech Ventures. I highly doubt they'd agree to it...

----------


## nameless

> You have nothing to base that on that its a little better. Even if it were, it'd still be better than the best we have available today. Yeah, we should have a cure by now, but I would definitely go in for a treatment if available.


 
Now that I have gone back to see what Desmond actually said I might have some interest in this $2 million idea. I stand corrected Hellrouser. 

I would want to know if Cotseralis would be able to put a ballpark percentage improvement over minox/propecia a patient could typically expect. If it was significant I would be willing to contribute. 

Here is exactly what Desmond said:


"3) I brought up the crowdfunding idea particularly with regards to Follica and he said the amount necessary is quite large. So I insisted on an actual amount and here's what he said: "US $2 million would bring out a product that would be more effective than Minoxidil and Propecia but would not give a bald person a full head of hair. US $20 million will provide the kind of funding necessary to give someone who is already bald a full head of hair but it will take more years to accomplish"."

----------


## hellouser

> Same thing could be asked of Histogen.
> 
> It's possible that the companies funding this stuff feel that the money needed to continue the trials isnt worth it unless it's a full blown cure.
> 
> It costs millions to bring this stuff to market so some of them may not feel the risk is justified if the product is only 10% better than Minoxidil for example but costs twice as much. 
> 
> return of investment right. 
> 
> However we of course want more options and I think these companies are wrong, I guarentee you many people would spend the extra money just for another option. Min+Fin only maintain for guys like me with agressive hairloss at a young age(22). 
> ...


 These guys underestimate how willing balding men and women are to use any and ALL options available. They're stupid if they feel that not enough people will spend money on their product. People spend copious amounts of cash on GARBAGE products today... the industry is in the billions of dollars per year. Can you imagine what that number would if we had products that actually WORKED?

----------


## Haircure

I know this may be a big shot in the dark but, I'm sure a lot of you guys know about LeBron James and his now infamous hairline. Well apparently he's fed up with it and had gotten a hair transplant along with recently partnering with Hair Club for men. I know it's a slim chance but the guy is in contact with fans a lot and maybe he might be willing to help out.

----------


## nameless

Desmond, what we want to know is the scientific technique how we could mass pass cultures of dp cells and epithelial cells while protecting trichogenicity/inductivity. 

Also, there is going to be a presentation that shows better ways to insert the cells into the scalp. Please see that presentation and ask the presenter any questions you can think of. This is a very important presentation because I think that a lot of these cells are dying during re-implantation after culture. 

Thanks Desmond.

Come back with lots of info, details, and the blueprints.

----------


## joachim

further, i'm wondering how desmond has still kept his positive thinking although he personally thinks a cure is still 7 to 10 years away. a big respect for that.
but i really can't imagine that we are still here in the forum in 10 years. will desmond, hellouser and arashi still be here in 5 years, with all their positive posts and efforts? will desmond still surprise us every year with a new research success story for the next 10 years until the cure is out? if we now all know that everything is really that far away where's the point then in staying here in the forum? this is a horror scenario.
in 10 years we'll have flying cars and still no hairloss cure =)

i really don't understand what's taking so long for them. if all the culturing work is done, i see no reason to wait for trials and all the waiting game. only the safety aspect has to be checked. this can be done in 1 year, or 2 years maximum. from that point, the treatment should be carried out in unrestricted countries. even if efficacy is not the best, nobody would care if he would have to go multiple times through the treatment, and pay thousands and thousands of dollas. this would be the early adopters. and then, the researchers can take as much time as they need to improve efficacy, instruments and the whole process and go through fda 10 times if they like.

----------


## joachim

> I know this may be a big shot in the dark but, I'm sure a lot of you guys know about LeBron James and his now infamous hairline. Well apparently he's fed up with it and had gotten a hair transplant along with recently partnering with Hair Club for men. I know it's a slim chance but the guy is in contact with fans a lot and maybe he might be willing to help out.


 perfect... also rooney, john cryer, travolta and thousand others will join (probably anonymously) if we raise awareness worldwide.

by the way: i just saw on tv, that robbie williams also admitted that he received some grafts for his hairline and temples. it's crazy because he almost had a full head of hair, but he was just cool enough to tell it to the public

----------


## hellouser

> I know this may be a big shot in the dark but, I'm sure a lot of you guys know about LeBron James and his now infamous hairline. Well apparently he's fed up with it and had gotten a hair transplant along with recently partnering with Hair Club for men. I know it's a slim chance but the guy is in contact with fans a lot and maybe he might be willing to help out.


 He's definitely insecure about his hairline. But theres other players that are losing it too.

Kevin Durant:



Carlos Boozer:



Blake Griffin's older brother is severely balding, and Blake's hairline is getting up to a NW1/2, Marcin Gortat is NW3, Kevin Love is at NW3 as well.

----------


## hellouser

> i really don't understand what's taking so long for them. if all the culturing work is done, i see no reason to wait for trials and all the waiting game. only the safety aspect has to be checked. this can be done in 1 year, or 2 years maximum. from that point, the treatment should be carried out in unrestricted countries. even if efficacy is not the best, nobody would care if he would have to go multiple times through the treatment, and pay thousands and thousands of dollas. this would be the early adopters. and then, the researchers can take as much time as they need to improve efficacy, instruments and the whole process and go through fda 10 times if they like.


 It really does make sense for them to release the treatment in countries with less regulations, use those results as a testbed as well as method of generating revenue to fund further trials for approval in more strict countries (USA, Europe).

Also, the FDA makes it very difficult to get true safety results because it stalls releases. The only real way to get safety results is if you get people to use it... but the trials are small, costly and take too much time. If they simply allowed people to USE the method, THEN they'd know about safety.

----------


## joachim

the good thing about team berlin (lauster, lindner, atac) is that they are located in germany. they will not care about the fda as first priority. they will release it in europe first which i assume doesn't take that long... or am i wrong? does anybody know how the european medical release procedure exactly works?

one important question desmond: from what you wrote it seems that team berlin really is focused on human treatments and curing baldness, and not only the biochip technology to enable animal-free testing of cosmetics. i think both goals will come at the same time: curing baldness and stopping animal-tests.
i really hope they are really eager to solve hairloss in a big style, too. is this case, desmond?
are they working on machines/reactors to make lab-grown hair mass producable to cure baldness, too?

----------


## Haircure

Lol @ the Carlos boozer pic, I remember that on Shaqtin a fool. Anyways LeBron apparently told boozer that he didn't have to paint his head anymore and that they would get their hair back. So yea who knows if he is presented with some good info he might do something about it. Also with regards to other players, I think most of them will just simply shave their heads like a lot of others have done but if someone like Lebron gets in on this then a lot of others will follow. By the way here's a link to what I was talking about earlier

http://www.thenewsnerd.com/sports/le...-club-for-men/

----------


## JZA70

I find it absolutely hilarious that Cotsarelis trolled Desmond in real life. Wow. Better than both current treatments available but cant rake in two million to get it to market. Sure there. What is Follica ? A company that has nothing going for them but pretends they do.

I cant believe you actually have to make an appointment to talk to him. 

Hellouser, you're a great poster, but like others have said, the world owes us nothing. Our genes screwed us over and you could very well be in your forties before anything of actual use comes along. Its sad because we only have one life and we want to live it to the best, but it just cant be done. We will NEVER live the life that we planned to live.

Not sure if anyone saw this - http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/glax...ndal-1.2643062

Just makes you wonder how screwed up the pharmaceutical industry is.

----------


## joachim

> It really does make sense for them to release the treatment in countries with less regulations, use those results as a testbed as well as method of generating revenue to fund further trials for approval in more strict countries (USA, Europe).
> 
> Also, the FDA makes it very difficult to get true safety results because it stalls releases. The only real way to get safety results is if you get people to use it... but the trials are small, costly and take too much time. If they simply allowed people to USE the method, THEN they'd know about safety.


 totally agreed. the early birds are a kind of beta testers. no need for decades of trials.

----------


## bigentries

> totally agreed. the early birds are a kind of beta testers. no need for decades of trials.


 The problem is that, people change their minds after something goes wrong and there could be money involved.

No one wants to risk that sort of lawsuit.

See how many former NFL players are suing the league because they weren't informed that hitting their heads was bad for you

If someone tries a cure and suddenly gets cancer, be sure they will sue

----------


## JZA70

They should sell DIY kits for growing hair. Only if that was possible. 

Whatever it may be, it cant be more dangerous than Dut or Spiro which plenty of guys are already taking. Its probably as safe as it could be, but nope, here come 20 years of clinical trials.

----------


## bigentries

> They should sell DIY kits for growing hair. Only if that was possible. 
> 
> Whatever it may be, it cant be more dangerous than Dut or Spiro which plenty of guys are already taking. Its probably as safe as it could be, but nope, here come 20 years of clinical trials.


 If the treatment Cotsarelis was talking about is the lithium trial, a bunch of people already tried it years ago, with no results

So, those people did the wounding wrong or Follica is exaggerating their findings

----------


## joachim

i can't read the "world owes us nothing" BS anymore.
it's not about genes, and unfair situations in everyones life.

it's about technology and biologic evolution. technology has made our lives better. cars, phones, modern medicine. or would anyone would like to live in 1880?

there's simply no reason why hairloss research is so fu***** slow, incompetent and corrupt. we're not talking about a killing virus which mutates every few years into another virus or so, thus difficult to figure out how to fight it.
we're talking about hair follicles which should have be known in every detail by now, after all these decades of pseudo-research. aderans was a joke. a few others which had promising results sold their souls for big cash to BIG hairloss companys, so that they can shelve the product and still lead the market with minox, fin, wigs, and other unsatisfying stuff.

it's a shame, and the world needs a change. the technology is here already! maybe still need a bit of improvement, but it's no magic at all.

lab-grown livers, kidneys, even vaginas. the first fully functional lab-grown heart is predicted for 2025, and that's not unrealistic at all. i even think they it will happen in 2020. fda approval is another story of course...

----------


## nameless

> further, i'm wondering how desmond has still kept his positive thinking although he personally thinks a cure is still 7 to 10 years away. a big respect for that.
> but i really can't imagine that we are still here in the forum in 10 years. will desmond, hellouser and arashi still be here in 5 years, with all their positive posts and efforts? will desmond still surprise us every year with a new research success story for the next 10 years until the cure is out? if we now all know that everything is really that far away where's the point then in staying here in the forum? this is a horror scenario.
> in 10 years we'll have flying cars and still no hairloss cure =)
> 
> i really don't understand what's taking so long for them. if all the culturing work is done, i see no reason to wait for trials and all the waiting game. only the safety aspect has to be checked. this can be done in 1 year, or 2 years maximum. from that point, the treatment should be carried out in unrestricted countries. even if efficacy is not the best, nobody would care if he would have to go multiple times through the treatment, and pay thousands and thousands of dollas. this would be the early adopters. and then, the researchers can take as much time as they need to improve efficacy, instruments and the whole process and go through fda 10 times if they like.


 
Release it now in the countries where doing so is legal and do clinical trials in the countries where you have to. That's the way to go>

----------


## Arashi

> further, i'm wondering how desmond has still kept his positive thinking although he personally thinks a cure is still 7 to 10 years away. a big respect for that.
> but i really can't imagine that we are still here in the forum in 10 years. will desmond, hellouser and arashi still be here in 5 years, with all their positive posts and efforts? will desmond still surprise us every year with a new research success story for the next 10 years until the cure is out? if we now all know that everything is really that far away where's the point then in staying here in the forum? this is a horror scenario.
> in 10 years we'll have flying cars and still no hairloss cure =)


 We always knew that a 'preclinical' cure has to go through clinical trials which may take 6-8 years. But we're not even at the point of a 'preclinical' cure yet. I figured we were very close to that: Tsuji and Jahoda showed us that a combination of DP cells + epethelial cells grows hairs. Now like Desmond noted a few pages back, pretty much all research groups succeeded  this year where Jahoda failed last year: keeping all genes expressed while culturing DP cells. So, I figure now, what's keeping us from a cure ? Desmond asked that exact same question to Lauster's group and posted a few pages back that he will explain it once he gets the green light from Lauster's group. Desmond also said that we're VERY close. That's all that matters in my opinion.

Once we have a preclinical cure (a success of cloning hair on a human test candidate), then we can start planning our future: the bridging period.  Cause right now I don't dare to take much more grafts from my donor. Once I know that it's pretty certain a treatment in the clinics will be available in 6-8 years, I'm going to deplete my donor and fill up everything. So that's why all this is important in my opinion: an understanding where we are, so we can plan our futures.

----------


## joachim

by the way, hellouser: the fact that you have put nigam on CC while informing the congress admins is just so hilarious =} =} =}
can you imagine his look in his face while reading your mail? *gg*

----------


## nameless

> We always knew that a 'preclinical' cure has to through clinical trials and may take 6-8 years. But we're not even at the point of a 'preclinical' cure yet. I figured we were very close: Tsuji and Jahoda showed us that a combination of DP cells + epethelial cells grows hairs. Now like Desmond noted a few pages back, pretty much all research groups succeeded  this year where Jahoda failed last year: keeping all genes expressed while culturing DP cells. So, I figure now, what's keeping us from a cure ? Desmond asked that exact same question to Lauster's group and posted a few pages back that he will explain it once he gets the green light from Lauster's group. Desmond also said that we're VERY close. That's all that matters in my opinion.
> 
> Once we have a preclinical cure (a success of cloning hair on a human test candidate), then we can start planning our future: the bridging period.  Cause right now I don't dare to take much more grafts from my donor. Once I know that it's pretty certain a treatment in the clinics will be available in 6-8 years, I'm going to deplete my donor and fill up everything. So that's why all this is important in my opinion: an understanding where we are, so we can plan our futures.


 So then this shows that all of your ideas about how doctors who will give it to us early is really just talk and your real plan is to accept the 8 year delay.

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## JZA70

A hair follicle is a complex organ. Its not like they just have to make one and call it a day, they have to be able to make thousands for every single person that walks through the door. 

People who don't suffer from hair loss have no idea how bad it is. We will always be at the bottom of the totem pole for actual cures. Like Hellouser has mentioned, there's tons of advertising for breast cancer with stickers and t shirts and runs and so on, but no one gives a shit hair loss sufferers. We're supposed to rub on Rogaine on our head and move on with life.

----------


## nameless

> We always knew that a 'preclinical' cure has to go through clinical trials which may take 6-8 years. But we're not even at the point of a 'preclinical' cure yet. I figured we were very close: Tsuji and Jahoda showed us that a combination of DP cells + epethelial cells grows hairs. Now like Desmond noted a few pages back, pretty much all research groups succeeded  this year where Jahoda failed last year: keeping all genes expressed while culturing DP cells. So, I figure now, what's keeping us from a cure ? Desmond asked that exact same question to Lauster's group and posted a few pages back that he will explain it once he gets the green light from Lauster's group. Desmond also said that we're VERY close. That's all that matters in my opinion.
> 
> Once we have a preclinical cure (a success of cloning hair on a human test candidate), then we can start planning our future: the bridging period.  Cause right now I don't dare to take much more grafts from my donor. Once I know that it's pretty certain a treatment in the clinics will be available in 6-8 years, I'm going to deplete my donor and fill up everything. So that's why all this is important in my opinion: an understanding where we are, so we can plan our futures.


 
And once you move all your hair around all over your head those cells they inject 8 years later might not work so well because you will have disrupted your scalp so much.

----------


## joachim

> We always knew that a 'preclinical' cure has to through clinical trials and may take 6-8 years. But we're not even at the point of a 'preclinical' cure yet. I figured we were very close: Tsuji and Jahoda showed us that a combination of DP cells + epethelial cells grows hairs. Now like Desmond noted a few pages back, pretty much all research groups succeeded  this year where Jahoda failed last year: keeping all genes expressed while culturing DP cells. So, I figure now, what's keeping us from a cure ? Desmond asked that exact same question to Lauster's group and posted a few pages back that he will explain it once he gets the green light from Lauster's group. Desmond also said that we're VERY close. That's all that matters in my opinion.
> 
> Once we have a preclinical cure (a success of cloning hair on a human test candidate), then we can start planning our future: the bridging period.  Cause right now I don't dare to take much more grafts from my donor. Once I know that it's pretty certain a treatment in the clinics will be available in 6-8 years, I'm going to deplete my donor and fill up everything. So that's why all this is important in my opinion: an understanding where we are, so we can plan our futures.


 well said. you're right. it's important to know that there definitely will be a cure, so that we can plan further steps. pilofocus will maybe bring some semi-cure if we are able to take 5000+ grafts from the donor, or even more if we are willing to get SMP for the donor.

----------


## Arashi

> And once you move all your hair around all over your head those cells they inject 8 years later might not work so well because you will have disrupted your scalp so much.


 That's nonsense. We already know that you can add more hair to existing transplanted area's. Tons of guys have that done. Why would that be any different with cloned hair ? Only in some cases where you went to a bad doctor who caused a lot of scarring, it might become difficult. But even then, not impossible at all.

----------


## joachim

i hope desmond has asked cots for his email address for a possible follow up.
we have to know if the wounding with lithium is worth the money or not.

because i still don't get it: they claim they are able to consistently produce NEW hairs, and on the other side cots is saying the 2 million would bring a treatment but not a full head of hair.
like hellouser often stated already: why not go multiple times for a treatment? even if the natural density can't be reached with this method but still gives a good 40 to 50 grafts per cm2 then this is definitely a good point to start with. 

so it's a little bit fishy how cots argues. i think it would be crucial now to stay in contact with cots and see what they are talking about. they have to give us insight in their results and if they are really able to consistently create hairs, it can be a game changer indeed.
even if it has to be combined with normal HTs to create more density, it would be fantastic.

i would love to see what the wounding is all about... the instruments, the procedure, the results, the limitations. it's time for some answers now.

----------


## nameless

> i hope desmond has asked cots for his email address for a possible follow up.
> we have to know if the wounding with lithium is worth the money or not.
> 
> because i still don't get it: they claim they are able to consistently produce NEW hairs, and on the other side cots is saying the 2 million would bring a treatment but not a full head of hair.
> like hellouser often stated already: why not go multiple times for a treatment? even if the natural density can't be reached with this method but still gives a good 40 to 50 grafts per cm2 then this is definitely a good point to start with. 
> 
> so it's a little bit fishy how cots argues. i think it would be crucial now to stay in contact with cots and see what they are talking about. they have to give us insight in their results and if they are really able to consistently create hairs, it can be a game changer indeed.
> even if it has to be combined with normal HTs to create more density, it would be fantastic.
> 
> i would love to see what the wounding is all about... the instruments, the procedure, the results, the limitations. it's time for some answers now.


 
Good point! If we are to contribute then we would want some details.

----------


## JZA70

Man you guys really get ahead of yourselves. Cot's probably nuked a scalp and grew 5 new hairs. 

Look at the big picture, if he cant even get 2 million for he supposed revolutionary treatment, I think its time to move on. 

Check back in 5 years.

----------


## PaddyBateman

Hair loss is f*kin horrendous.

However. Lets say the cure comes out in 2024. What would you, in 2024, if you were offered a 5min time portal, were able to talk to yourself in 2014,  told yourself to do with the next week, year, decade?

----------


## nameless

The more I look at what Desmond actually said the more I think we might want to consider what Cotseralis has said. Here is what Desmond said that Cotseralis said:

"3) I brought up the crowdfunding idea particularly with regards to Follica and he said the amount necessary is quite large. So I insisted on an actual amount and here's what he said: "US $2 million would bring out a product that would be more effective than Minoxidil and Propecia but would not give a bald person a full head of hair. US $20 million will provide the kind of funding necessary to give someone who is already bald a full head of hair but it will take more years to accomplish"."

If you look at this it could mean a lot of regrowth for guys who are stage 3 or even stage 4. I think we should get more information from him about how much regrowth is involved in a typical stage 3 and stage 4 patient. Plus I would also like to see him agree to release it to doctors in countries where it would be legal for the doctor to perform it. Also, when would he release it in America? I mean if it's gone through phase 2 then it should be one more study (phase 3) and then release it. 

Hellouser Follica/Cots and the parent company want to continue the studies so I think they might agree to releasing it in one country where it would be legal in exchange for the $2 million funding. I think that they would probably do it because if they don't then there's no funding and all of their efforts to this point are down the drain. In 8 years it will not matter because the cell therapy guys will come along with something that cures everybody so they will have missed out on an opportunity to make some money off the baldness game.

----------


## Haircure

I think it's important if we know how close we are like Arashi said. Even if it's 5 more years at least we have a good idea and can get a hair transplant and have good coverage until then, rather than sitting on the fence waiting for a cure to come.

----------


## Thinning87

> I find it absolutely hilarious that Cotsarelis trolled Desmond in real life. Wow. Better than both current treatments available but cant rake in two million to get it to market. Sure there. What is Follica ? A company that has nothing going for them but pretends they do.
> 
> I cant believe you actually have to make an appointment to talk to him.


 The fact that, while Follica is supposed to be making progress with fgf9, others in the dermatology department at Upenn have been working on epithelial cells, makes me wonder if you mint be right. 

And in retrospection, the statement "we have shown that we can consistently create new hair follicles" is vague and doesn't mean at all they have achieved something worth being called a full cure. Actually, it's more likely to be a defensive statement, like "we have the method to create new follicles but we don't have a method to make you a full head of hair". 

I think at this point it's safe to say we have a good ten years of no cure ahead of us. Better get used to if folks... Although I'm still down to do a crowd funding campaign, at least my cousins that are 10 years younger will benefit from it a great deal.

----------


## joachim

> Hair loss is f*kin horrendous.
> 
> However. Lets say the cure comes out in 2024. What would you, in 2024, if you were offered a 5min time portal, were able to talk to yourself in 2014,  told yourself to do with the next week, year, decade?


 haha, that's easy. if there's one thing we could learn from marty mcfly and doc brown, then how to change the future very effectively  :Wink: 
if you have knowledge about future technlogy, 5min is more than enough to guide yourself through the next 10 years.

----------


## nameless

> Man you guys really get ahead of yourselves. Cot's probably nuked a scalp and grew 5 new hairs. 
> 
> Look at the big picture, if he cant even get 2 million for he supposed revolutionary treatment, I think its time to move on. 
> 
> Check back in 5 years.


 
One thing that I don't understand is why he can't get funding if he has grown significant amounts of hair????

$2 million looks like a drop in the bucket to invest for a treatment coming out of phase 2 and only has to complete phase 3 and can grow definitely more hair in more people than minoxidil/propecia. If it can beat minox/propecia then it can take all of the minox/propecia business plus get new business. It's amazing that they can't get someone to invest $2 million if it really is obviously better than minoxidil/propecia.

----------


## joachim

Stem Cell Hair Regrowth Treatment Breakthrough So: http://youtu.be/i7_fvcigbeA

so this is the video which probably everyone of us have seen already.
in my opinion the new white hair is pretty dense. if cots can do that on my scalp, i'm in!
they are talking about missing pigments in mice, thus the white color. shouldn't be the case with humans. but even if the wounding would produce white colored hair only, i wouldn't mind. i just would dye it. no problem at all.

so that white dense mouse hair was years ago.
if the finished follica trials show similar results in human scalp, then it's a quasi-cure in my opinion. cots should tell us more about it.

----------


## JZA70

> then it's a quasi-cure in my opinion. cots should tell us more about it.


 Well its either a treatment or a cure and we don't need any more treatments.

----------


## nameless

> Stem Cell Hair Regrowth Treatment Breakthrough So: http://youtu.be/i7_fvcigbeA
> 
> so this is the video which probably everyone of us have seen already.
> in my opinion the new white hair is pretty dense. if cots can do that on my scalp, i'm in!
> they are talking about missing pigments in mice, thus the white color. shouldn't be the case with humans. but even if the wounding would produce white colored hair only, i wouldn't mind. i just would dye it. no problem at all.
> 
> so that white dense mouse hair was years ago.
> if the finished follica trials show similar results in human scalp, then it's a quasi-cure in my opinion. cots should tell us more about it.


 If he could do that in humans then why is having trouble getting $2 million lousy dollars? It's nothing. Like you said, even if it was white all you would have to do is dye it. It doesn't make sense that he can't get $2 million if he can match that efficacy in humans.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

I officially don't trust cots.

There are professional investors all over the world. It isn't that hard to round up a 2M series-A private investment round-- if he's that close. He obviously isn't or he would have the money.

----------


## Arashi

Good morning Desmond, how is everything going ? In 3 hours Team Jahoda talks, in my opinion the most important presentation of the conference, exciting ! I'm really hoping you can get to chat with them !!

Good luck brother !

----------


## hellouser

Holy crap, our initiative with Desmond got noticed on the web, look!

[Promotional link removed]




> What’s more, several members of other online hair restoration discussion forums started a crowd-funding initiative and raised enough capital to send a member to report on the conference. The member has a background in science and agreed to record and report on the conference and interview several prominent researchers.

----------


## Mike K

> Holy crap, our initiative with Desmond got noticed on the web, look!


 Hell yea!

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys.

Today I have some more great news for you. I met up with a Singapore team who compared dermal papillae cells from balding to permanent zone of the scalp and found that transcriptosome differences may be responsible for androgen sensitivity of DP cells in the balding zone!

So I asked what's their solution to this problem? Would you have to use a retrovirus to correct these genetic differences (ie. Gene therapy)?

They pointed out that gene therapy is still 1-2 decades away and its safety is still very controversial. They hypothesised a different approach! Once they perform the genomics and proteomics studies they will hone in on the exact proteins needed to be blocked and simply by inhibiting protein synthesis they will stop androgen sensitivity in the balding scalp!

So in other words a permanent halt of hair miniaturisation! Don't forget that finasteride works in a similar manner per say by blocking a protein called 5 alpha reductase which converts testosterone to  DHT. Their method will target a different protein which is responsible for telling DP cells to express androgen receptors which is detrimental to their health.

Timeline wise, they're hoping the proteomics should be conclouded in the next 2 years. Fascinating stuff.

She is emailing me a copy of her poster and I'll share it as soon as I get it  :Wink:

----------


## nameless

> Holy crap, our initiative with Desmond got noticed on the web, look!


 And this is the sort of thing that could help in gaining larger crowd-funding and that could result in a $2 million investment into Cotseralis but why is Cotseralis having trouble securing a lousy $2 million if he can produce significantly better results than minoxidil/propecia. 

Hellouser isn't that hard to understand? $2 million is a drop in the bucket and investors are used to putting up that kind of money for potential baldness breakthroughs. This is very hard to understand.

----------


## nameless

> Hey guys.
> 
> Today I have some more great news for you. I met up with a Singapore team who compared dermal papillae cells from balding to permanent zone of the scalp and found that transcriptosome differences may be responsible for androgen sensitivity of DP cells in the balding zone!
> 
> So I asked what's their solution to this problem? Would you have to use a retrovirus to correct these genetic differences (ie. Gene therapy)?
> 
> They pointed out that gene therapy is still 1-2 decades away and its safety is still very controversial. They hypothesised a different approach! Once they perform the genomics and proteomics studies they will hone in on the exact proteins needed to be blocked and simply by inhibiting protein synthesis they will stop androgen sensitivity in the balding scalp!
> 
> So in other words a permanent halt of hair miniaturisation! Don't forget that finasteride works in a similar manner per say by blocking a protein called 5 alpha reductase which converts testosterone to  DHT. Their method will target a different protein which is responsible for telling DP cells to express androgen receptors which is detrimental to their health.
> ...


 Desmond are you getting technical information how to culture DP/epithelial cells mass pass without loss of hair inductivity/trichogenicity? That's what we need.

----------


## fuzzyballs

> Hey guys.
> 
> Today I have some more great news for you. I met up with a Singapore team who compared dermal papillae cells from balding to permanent zone of the scalp and found that transcriptosome differences may be responsible for androgen sensitivity of DP cells in the balding zone!
> 
> So I asked what's their solution to this problem? Would you have to use a retrovirus to correct these genetic differences (ie. Gene therapy)?
> 
> They pointed out that gene therapy is still 1-2 decades away and its safety is still very controversial. They hypothesised a different approach! Once they perform the genomics and proteomics studies they will hone in on the exact proteins needed to be blocked and simply by inhibiting protein synthesis they will stop androgen sensitivity in the balding scalp!
> 
> So in other words a permanent halt of hair miniaturisation! Don't forget that finasteride works in a similar manner per say by blocking a protein called 5 alpha reductase which converts testosterone to  DHT. Their method will target a different protein which is responsible for telling DP cells to express androgen receptors which is detrimental to their health.
> ...


 Thanks Desmond! Love your work brother!!

So are you saying that something could be on the market in 2 years? Do you know if it will restore as well as halt hair loss?

----------


## hellouser

> Hey guys.
> 
> Today I have some more great news for you. I met up with a Singapore team who compared dermal papillae cells from balding to permanent zone of the scalp and found that transcriptosome differences may be responsible for androgen sensitivity of DP cells in the balding zone!
> 
> So I asked what's their solution to this problem? Would you have to use a retrovirus to correct these genetic differences (ie. Gene therapy)?
> 
> They pointed out that gene therapy is still 1-2 decades away and its safety is still very controversial. They hypothesised a different approach! Once they perform the genomics and proteomics studies they will hone in on the exact proteins needed to be blocked and simply by inhibiting protein synthesis they will stop androgen sensitivity in the balding scalp!
> 
> So in other words a permanent halt of hair miniaturisation! Don't forget that finasteride works in a similar manner per say by blocking a protein called 5 alpha reductase which converts testosterone to  DHT. Their method will target a different protein which is responsible for telling DP cells to express androgen receptors which is detrimental to their health.
> ...


 Great work Desmond! That's definitely promising, finally something that doesn't alter our masculinity!

Two questions;

1) Did you get my email with Dr. Lindner?
2) Did you ask Dr. Cotsarelis if Follica's method can be repeated for increased density?

Thanks!!

----------


## fuzzyballs

@hell - are you serious that all we need is $2M - 20M to fund Cotsarelis and Follica?

If answer = yes, than will the real hellouser please stand up please standup... because you're clearly an alien, if it was only $2M then hairloss would be solved and Cotsarelis would already be rich.

I suspect Cotsarelis just wants to be funded to the tune of $2M for the next couple of years.

If it were true he's have $100M in the bank right now. I will not spend a cent on Cotsarelis via crowdfunding. Its a bad use of money.

We'd be MUCH better of crowdfunding Histogen.

----------


## nameless

> Thanks Desmond! Love your work brother!!
> 
> So are you saying that something could be on the market in 2 years? Do you know if it will restore as well as halt hair loss?


 No.

He's saying that in 2 years the research team will know which proteins are needed to be blocked in order to prevent androgen receptors from being formed. 

After that then they will have to create a blocker to that protein.

After that they will have to test it in animals and then humans. 

It could be on the market in about 12 years.

----------


## joachim

hi desmond,

if you find the time, i would appreciate it if you can listen to the speech P146, starting 9.40AM.
sounds like a new device for hair transplants... with 3 needles or so.
i'm curious what they are talking about. maybe it enables better HT yields, or reduce trauma and redness. maybe it enables more density for HTs, because needle thickness is key here. if lauster comes up with hair cloning someday, HT implanting techniques definitely should be improved to enable great density. maybe this device goes into that direction.

if you find the time to record it, would be cool. 

thanks

----------


## Desmond84

Guys this is a very technically intensive congress. A lot of information is being presented. I will let you sieve through the data at your own pace. So don't worry the technical information is being presented.

As for the 2 year timeline, that's preclinical work. You need to add at least 6 more years for clinical trials unless the compound already existed on the market, which may be!

----------


## nameless

> @hell - are you serious that all we need is $2M - 20M to fund Cotsarelis and Follica?
> 
> If answer = yes, than will the real hellouser please stand up please standup... because you're clearly an alien, if it was only $2M then hairloss would be solved and Cotsarelis would already be rich.
> 
> I suspect Cotsarelis just wants to be funded to the tune of $2M for the next couple of years.
> 
> If it were true he's have $100M in the bank right now. I will not spend a cent on Cotsarelis via crowdfunding. Its a bad use of money.
> 
> We'd be MUCH better of crowdfunding Histogen.


 
I know. It's crazy to think that with all the people out there who invest money into things why would Cotseralis not be able to get $2 million lousy dollars if he has a better moustrap and he has completed phase 2 and he only has phase 3 to go?

Desmond could you please ask Cotseralis why he can't get $2 million from professional investors if he has a better mouse trap that has already completed phase 2 and only has to do a phase 3?

Some of us don't understand. If it made sense some of us would be interested but it doesn't make sense. I like the idea of doing a crowdfunding for a phase 3 with significantly better results than minox/propecia but when I see that the amount needed is a mere $2 million I don't understand why he's having trouble.

----------


## hellouser

> Guys this is a very technically intensive congress. A lot of information is being presented. I will let you sieve through the data at your own pace. So don't worry the technical information is being presented.
> 
> As for the 2 year timeline, that's preclinical work. You need to add at least 6 more years for clinical trials unless the compound already existed on the market, which may be!


 Idea:

Use Dr. Lauster's team's innovations with creating follicles to test for existing compounds that have the same effect to halt miniaturization of follicles. If only Dr. Lauster would allow that though... progress would speed up incredibly.

----------


## Desmond84

Hey Hell

Yes I did. I will email him tonight.
Thank you

Joachim, I did go to the talk but didn't record it. Really sorry brother. I got caught up chatting with a researcher and didn't make it to the room in time to record the talk. I'll give you a summary of what was press Ted tonight though. Plz remind me. Cheers.

Jahodas team is presenting in about 2 hours. Arashi I've got the gear ready brother. I'm recording it no matter what lol

----------


## nameless

> Guys this is a very technically intensive congress. A lot of information is being presented. I will let you sieve through the data at your own pace. So don't worry the technical information is being presented.
> 
> As for the 2 year timeline, that's preclinical work. You need to add at least 6 more years for clinical trials unless the compound already existed on the market, which may be!


 Desmond are you saying that you ARE getting the technical information how to culture mass pass dp cells/epithelial cells while keeping the hair inductivity/trichogenicity?  If you are getting that information you are my hero. 
And if there's a way to get the information in a study that would be great too.

But one thing has bothered me is that it doesn't make sense that these folks would release all of their technical information because their competitors can use it to get a leg up on them. I wonder if they're really sharing everything that we would need to know.

----------


## hellouser

> Hey Hell
> 
> Yes I did. I will email him tonight.
> Thank you
> 
> Joachim, I did go to the talk but didn't record it. Really sorry brother. I got caught up chatting with a researcher and didn't make it to the room in time to record the talk. I'll give you a summary of what was press Ted tonight though. Plz remind me. Cheers.
> 
> *Jahodas team is presenting in about 2 hours. Arashi I've got the gear ready brother. I'm recording it no matter what lol*


 I emailed Jahoda as well a few days ago, didn't hear from him. Any chance you could get to chat with him one on one?

Thanks Desmond!!

----------


## nameless

> hi desmond,
> 
> if you find the time, i would appreciate it if you can listen to the speech P146, starting 9.40AM.
> sounds like a new device for hair transplants... with 3 needles or so.
> i'm curious what they are talking about. maybe it enables better HT yields, or reduce trauma and redness. maybe it enables more density for HTs, because needle thickness is key here. if lauster comes up with hair cloning someday, HT implanting techniques definitely should be improved to enable great density. maybe this device goes into that direction.
> 
> if you find the time to record it, would be cool. 
> 
> thanks


 
+ 1

When I thought Nigam was going I emailed him and asked him to go to this presentation. This could be very important. They seem to be saying they have found a better way to implant this kind of tissue with a much higher survival rate. This one was on Desmond's original list of 6.

----------


## Desmond84

> Idea:
> 
> Use Dr. Lauster's team's innovations with creating follicles to test for existing compounds that have the same effect to halt miniaturization of follicles. If only Dr. Lauster would allow that though... progress would speed up incredibly.


 That is exactly what they're planning ;-)

----------


## nameless

> I emailed Jahoda as well a few days ago, didn't hear from him. Any chance you could get to chat with him one on one?
> 
> Thanks Desmond!!


 
+1

It would be great if you could bring home all of the details how to turn regular fibroblast cells into hair growing cells.

----------


## hellouser

> That is exactly what they're planning ;-)


 That's awesome! Having a testbed like that will FINALLY determine efficacy of compounds before going to trials. Hell, I wonder if such topicals will even need to be further tested on humans if we have skin and follicles to work with. Clinical trials could be reduced drastically.

----------


## nameless

> That's awesome! Having a testbed like that will FINALLY determine efficacy of compounds before going to trials. Hell, I wonder if such topicals will even need to be further tested on humans if we have skin and follicles to work with. Clinical trials could be reduced drastically.


 
Hellouser the FDA is still going to force these products to go through regular human trials. I don't see where it helps us if they are going to use this technology to create follicles to test treatments on. I think that this technology would serve us better if it was used to create follicles for later implantation into our scalps.

----------


## oppenheimer82

jarjar could you please stop spamming. thank you.

----------


## Arashi

> Jahodas team is presenting in about 2 hours. Arashi I've got the gear ready brother. I'm recording it no matter what lol


 Super exciting stuff !! Good luck again Desmond ! And it would be terrific if you could manage to ask Gardner and/or Higgins some questions !

----------


## NeedHairASAP

I'm 2000% sure if these guys crack the code we wont have to wait 8 years for trials. Maybe a few years. These german docs are smart and they will set up shop somewhere in asia or india or africa and give treatments.

----------


## HairlossAt15

Desmond, if you talk to Cotsarelis again could you bring up the point that MPB sufferers do not need brand new follicles because we still have all our hair it is just miniaturised etc and pgd2 is what he believes to be doing that so why is he/Follica/Some other company(he has mentioned he has been approached by many) are not rushing full steam ahead with the pgd2 trials. Did he mention why they havent started (the pgd2 clinical trials)? If the PGD2 is not dealt with wouldnt the new follicles being created (by these other techniques) be affected by it again and just start miniaturising just like the original hairs? You could bring up that last point to other people you talk to as well. 

I would be very thankful but you have already done enough its up to you, sorry for the late request.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Super exciting stuff !! Good luck again Desmond ! And it would be terrific if you could manage to ask Gardner and/or Higgins some questions !


 Desmond- Since you probably have the best idea of who has made the most progress so far and who needs funding the most- could you start thinking about where the best place to direct a crowdfunding effort would be? Something about cotsarellis rubs me the wrong way- he seems reluctant to work with others and his claims and predictions always seem a bit weird and contradictory.  That being said, a 2M goal to bring a new treatment to market seems like a plausible and effective goal, and if we can follow up with him and see if he's really into a crowdfunding effort, let's do it! I think we could easily raise that amount.  

With a well advertised campaign, I bet you could even raise the 20 million pretty easily, it just needs to be tied to a legit research team who is willing to help promote it, and get it into the right hands.  Funding for science and medicine is actually low and hard to get in the USA in general, so I don't think he's being as devious as most people seem to believe. Dr. Xu is great but I'm not sure if he's the most advanced as far as where he's at with hair regeneration research.  My guess is that funding a team or company that has a clear goal of bringing something to market is the best option. I would not latch on all kinds of demands etc etc, you're just going to push away whoever you're trying to work with. Just pick a good horse and run with it. So far Dr. Xu is the only one who has even considered getting involved in a crowdfunding effort, which is why I've been focused on him.  

I don't think it's as complicated a process as many on here would have us believe. It will just require a few people to organize it and get it going, and the worst that can happen is we raise some money and not all of it. Indiegogo is very straightforward and most of the questions that people have raised about crowdfunding are a moot point.  The important part is having someone to work with/for that can provide their public face and some brief info/video/photos etc to get people excited.  If anyone has made a kickstarter before they will know that it is not rocket science, and usually doesn't require many people to set it all up.

What did the germans say about their funding? Are they well set? any news from tsuji lab? it's been years since they made the news, what are they up to? Desmond maybe you can ask around about them...
Also, you seem to be pretty sure that having a cure by the early 2020's is plausible, and I'd really like to know, beyond your general optimism, what statements by researchers are you basing this on?  So far it doesn't seem like you've talked to anyone that has given that kind of timeline. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but a lot of people on here get excited by your optimism, and in the end I'm kind of wondering if you've taken the time to sit down and think about how long this kind of stuff actually takes. I mean they were saying they'd have a cure in five years when my grandfather was young.  I find stem cell science fascinating too, but I feel like we're in model-T days, and regrowing thousands of tiny organs is still so far off as a day to day possibility.  Any info you gathered that sheds light on where we're at will certainly be appreciated, cause so far I haven't learned anything new. thanks for your hard work!

----------


## deuce

Man.  I figured it would be ten years at least, but I knew everyone here had in the back of their mine that somehow someone would give some news that they would have a product in a couple of years.  Seems to me that it is great that everyone is progressing in research, but all it is is research it is not helping us now.  I think what myself and others need to focus on is how we are going to keep our existing hair for the next multiple years?  I have no clue.  It sucks if you cannot use FIN.

----------


## JZA70

> Seems to me that it is great that everyone is progressing in research, but all it is is research it is not helping us now.


 Well that's all that's really going to happen. Even once they can grow thousands of hairs for us like its nothing, we still have to wait for trials and what not. Remaining research + trials = long time. 

You're being mislead if you think you'll be cured within 10 years.

----------


## Thinning87

Well, technically, Follica in June 2013 implied they would beging testing fgf9 at the preclinical level. Because they probably would have started before or, the latest, a few months after June 2013, they should have some kind of idea of what fgf9 can do. 

Maybe this is what Cotsarelis was referring to when talking to Desmond... Yeah they could finish what they started with the PGD2 blockers and give us some product that is somewhat better than what's currently available... OR... Start over from preclinical with fgf9. Which explains why they would need a whole new $20 million to carry this all the way to phase 3 - and years. 

To me this makes sense. It would explain why they needed to publicize their discovery with the June 2013 interviews to the press.

----------


## fuzzyballs

> Well, technically, Follica in June 2013 implied they would beging testing fgf9 at the preclinical level. Because they probably would have started before or, the latest, a few months after June 2013, they should have some kind of idea of what fgf9 can do. 
> 
> Maybe this is what Cotsarelis was referring to when talking to Desmond... Yeah they could finish what they started with the PGD2 blockers and give us some product that is somewhat better than what's currently available... OR... Start over from preclinical with fgf9. Which explains why they would need a whole new $20 million to carry this all the way to phase 3 - and years. 
> 
> To me this makes sense. It would explain why they needed to publicize their discovery with the June 2013 interviews to the press.


 I'm not so sure anymore, $2M - $20M, it all seems totally arbitrary. I think he wants a new Porche and to continue his lifestyle on the hollywood hills. 

Histogen has shown photos of regrowth, I'm assuming that it would at the very least HALT hairloss. Why back anything else. 

Also crowdfunding!?! Good luck... I'd only pay the scientists upon the delivery of results. In the meantime they can live off minimum wage. Give them something to strive for.

----------


## fuzzyballs

@Desmond are Histogen attending this one?

----------


## Thinning87

> I'm not so sure anymore, $2M - $20M, it all seems totally arbitrary. I think he wants a new Porche and to continue his lifestyle on the hollywood hills. 
> 
> Histogen has shown photos of regrowth, I'm assuming that it would at the very least HALT hairloss. Why back anything else. 
> 
> Also crowdfunding!?! Good luck... I'd only pay the scientists upon the delivery of results. In the meantime they can live off minimum wage. Give them something to strive for.


 That's the right attitude........ For another 30 years of propecia and rogaine!

----------


## fuzzyballs

> That's the right attitude........ For another 30 years of propecia and rogaine!


 Brother, I know you might think I'm being negative, but I'm not. I have had a hair transplant by Cooley, I have have a dumb FUT scare and I was told that I'd be okay even though I get Fin side effects. I'm not okay and hair loss is catching up! 

Trust me... nobody wants to arrest hair loss like I do. I think Histogen is the closest we have until Desmond tells us otherwise. I cannot reconcile throwing more money at people who've already had TONS of money thrown at them. 

More fool me maybe?

----------


## TravisB

We would have better luck crowdfunding Lauster or the Chinese guys than the scammer Cotsarelis.

Cotsarelis comes up with some bullshit "breakthrough discovery" every few years and there are still no results of any of his work.

And his statement about only $2 million needed to bring treatment better than Propecia + Minox, and $20 million needed for a full cure is a joke and nail to his coffin in my book

If he REALLY had something good up his sleeve, then getting $2 million would be as easy as snap of a finger.

He's a bullshitter

----------


## walrus

> That's awesome! Having a testbed like that will FINALLY determine efficacy of compounds before going to trials. Hell, I wonder if such topicals will even need to be further tested on humans if we have skin and follicles to work with. Clinical trials could be reduced drastically.


 This can be/is already done with explanted human hair follicles. The advantage would be efficiency.

----------


## walrus

> I'm not so sure anymore, $2M - $20M, it all seems totally arbitrary. *I think he wants a new Porche and to continue his lifestyle on the hollywood hills*. 
> 
> Histogen has shown photos of regrowth, I'm assuming that it would at the very least HALT hairloss. Why back anything else. 
> 
> Also crowdfunding!?! Good luck... I'd only pay the scientists upon the delivery of results. *In the meantime they can live off minimum wage*. Give them something to strive for.


 Make up your mind. Are researchers living the Hollywood lifestyle or is it minimum wage?

----------


## walrus

> Cotsarelis comes up with some bullshit "breakthrough discovery" every few years and there are still no results of any of his work.


 Have you actually read any of his publications to make this assertion? If you think they are bullshit you are welcome to write your own peer reviewed rebuttal, you could even attend internationally recognised conferences yourself.

----------


## jay woo

Is the 2 million and 20 million figure to develop a treatment that will still require passing off all trial phases. I would assume that this is the case and is the reason that funding is not easy to obtain. 

Clinical trails are what cost the money, I do not believe any of the treatments proposed can be used to treat other conditions. This means that if the treatment fails it is wasted money for the company. It is not possible to trial the treatment on another condition and hope for a return on investment.

----------


## Arashi

So Desmond, how did it go today ?

----------


## artika

It's almost 11 o'clock over there, maybe he's done for today :S

----------


## fuzzyballs

> Make up your mind. Are researchers living the Hollywood lifestyle or is it minimum wage?


 What I mean, is that if we're funding him, he should be on minimum wage until we see results. UNLIKE now. Which seems to be that researchers (and this is something I picked up on from @hellouser) is that they seem quite comfortable researching and NOT taking things to market.

So up until now, these researchers get their nice cars and hollywood homes, under my funding regime they would have minimum wage UNTIL they deliver. Which is how it should be. 

Furthermore anybody who's familiar with with crowd funding is that the pledgers get something in return.

If Cotsarelis is so confident that he can make something we should ALL get free cure for making him a many times over multi-million-billionere. Of course that isnt going to happen...

----------


## walrus

> What I mean, is that if we're funding him, he should be on minimum wage until we see results. UNLIKE now. Which seems to be that researchers (and this is something I picked up on from @hellouser) is that they seem quite comfortable researching and NOT taking things to market.
> 
> So up until now, these researchers get their nice cars and hollywood homes, under my funding regime they would have minimum wage UNTIL they deliver. Which is how it should be.


 Nonsense. Do you honestly think that (hypothetically) paying _minimum wage_ would attract the brightest minds that are necessary to carry out this kind of biological research? Any number of menial jobs that don't require a PhD would pay more. This would be one sure fire-way to ensure that MPB is never cured. 

Also, if you think that research jobs typically pay well enough to have 'nice cars and hollywood homes' you are severely misinformed.

----------


## hellouser

> It's almost 11 o'clock over there, maybe he's done for today :S


 Nah, Dr. Lindner gave him a full head of hair and he's gone out picking up Korean women.

----------


## 20goingon50

out of interest guys.

If Desmond said there is going to be a definite 100&#37; cure in 2020/21

Or a strong product that would 100% keep all hair on your head and regrow say 25% lost hair in 2016, but no complete cure until 2028. 

Which would you personally choose?

----------


## hellouser

> Nonsense. Do you honestly think that (hypothetically) paying _minimum wage_ would attract the brightest minds that are necessary to carry out this kind of biological research? Any number of menial jobs that don't require a PhD would pay more. This would be one sure fire-way to ensure that MPB is never cured. 
> 
> Also, if you think that research jobs typically pay well enough to have 'nice cars and hollywood homes' you are severely misinformed.


 Even if they do pay a lot, guys like Cotsarelis are way too busy to enjoy those things anyway.

----------


## hellouser

> out of interest guys.
> 
> If Desmond said there is going to be a definite 100% cure in 2020/21
> 
> Or a strong product that would 100% keep all hair on your head and regrow say 25% lost hair in 2016, but no complete cure until 2028. 
> 
> Which would you personally choose?


 Both.

----------


## fuzzyballs

> Nonsense. Do you honestly think that (hypothetically) paying _minimum wage_ would attract the brightest minds that are necessary to carry out this kind of biological research? Any number of menial jobs that don't require a PhD would pay more. This would be one sure fire-way to ensure that MPB is never cured. 
> 
> Also, if you think that research jobs typically pay well enough to have 'nice cars and hollywood homes' you are severely misinformed.


 Unless you've been living on another planet for the past 10 years you MIGHT have noticed that we _have already_ been paying the brightest minds top dollar to work on a cure and guess what... we don't have a cure. I'm sorry, but maybe you're not catching on... the current way of doing things is not working. 

And to be frank I'm not talking about the lowly scientists working on puny govt wages on how to solve things we here don't care about.  But I'm talking about rich research companies like Follica and Aderans that are funded by some of the wealthiest venture capital firms on the planet. Oh and whats that? No cure yet? Hrmmmm.....

So I'll say it again. Researchers in this field should ONLY be paid the true rewards (and I do mean wealth) on results.

----------


## Thinning87

> What I mean, is that if we're funding him, he should be on minimum wage until we see results. UNLIKE now. Which seems to be that researchers (and this is something I picked up on from @hellouser) is that they seem quite comfortable researching and NOT taking things to market.
> 
> So up until now, these researchers get their nice cars and hollywood homes, under my funding regime they would have minimum wage UNTIL they deliver. Which is how it should be. 
> 
> Furthermore anybody who's familiar with with crowd funding is that the pledgers get something in return.
> 
> If Cotsarelis is so confident that he can make something we should ALL get free cure for making him a many times over multi-million-billionere. Of course that isnt going to happen... so who really cares what you think. Or what he says.


 Tss you're just very confused and angry because your ht went bad. I'm gonna shave my head like I have already done, and am here for the news only. So I want something real to be done. 

You as yourself have not given researchers of hairloss a single dime of your own money so you shiuldnt act like you're owed anything, or like you can judge whether they betrayed your trust or not. 

Your bad ht and this research are two completely different things and are independent of each other.

----------


## 20goingon50

in terms of crowd funding. Premier league footballers (soccer) look a great place to get some investors. Wayne Rooney is the obvious one. Ireland at Aston villa is also very self conscious of the fact he is bald. 

Today two footballers from Celtic had hair transplants

http://talkingbaws.com/2014/05/16/ce...ir-transplant/

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-leigh-3153516

----------


## fuzzyballs

> in terms of crowd funding. Premier league footballers (soccer) look a great place to get some investors. Wayne Rooney is the obvious one. Ireland at Aston villa is also very self conscious of the fact he is bald. 
> 
> Today two footballers from Celtic had hair transplants
> 
> http://talkingbaws.com/2014/05/16/ce...ir-transplant/
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-leigh-3153516


 Or they just pay to get a HT done. But yeah for all we know guys like this are funding new ideas and research.

----------


## nameless

I don't understand the point to talk about crowdfunding just yet. At this point I would want more info from Cotseralis before donating to his cause and I would only be interested in donating toward the $2 million cause not the $20 million cause. The $20 million cause would take too long and there will already be other treatments on the market by the time his $20 million cause would bring a treatment into the marketplace. I firmly believe that effective cell therapy will be on the market within 8 years so why pay $20 million to have Cotseralis bring a wounding treatment into the marketplace in the same time frame?

None of the cell doctors are asking us for money donations so why would we crowdfund for them? It seems as though they are already getting investor funding so why would we crowdfund to get them funding? Is Lauster seeking funds? Is Jahoda seeking funds? Are any of them seeking funds besides Cotseralis?

----------


## hellouser

> Or they just pay to get a HT done. But yeah for all we know guys like this are funding new ideas and research.


 If a crowdfunding initiative were to take off, they'd be good to get in touch with.

----------


## fuzzyballs

> Tss you're just very confused and angry because your ht went bad. I'm gonna shave my head like I have already done, and am here for the news only. So I want something real to be done. 
> 
> You as yourself have not given researchers of hairloss a single dime of your own money so you shiuldnt act like you're owed anything, or like you can judge whether they betrayed your trust or not. 
> 
> Your bad ht and this research are two completely different things and are independent of each other.


 I regret my FUT transplants. But that's why I'm here in future treatments,as opposed to pipe dreams and fairy dust forum.

Dude I see a failed system, the same systems and processes are not getting us the results we want.

I think crowd funding is a great way of creating a pool of money. But just giving that money to a researcher that hasn't already been able to create something that you and I can use is not what I would spend my money on. 

Surely you can see that something ain't right?

----------


## hellouser

> I think crowd funding is a great way of creating a pool of money. But just giving that money to a researcher that hasn't already been able to create something that you and I can use is not what I would spend my money on. 
> 
> Surely you can see that something ain't right?


 So suggest a solution.

----------


## gainspotter

> in terms of crowd funding. Premier league footballers (soccer) look a great place to get some investors. Wayne Rooney is the obvious one. Ireland at Aston villa is also very self conscious of the fact he is bald. 
> 
> Today two footballers from Celtic had hair transplants
> 
> http://talkingbaws.com/2014/05/16/ce...ir-transplant/
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-leigh-3153516


 Ireland's at stoke now, not villa

----------


## fuzzyballs

> So suggest a solution.


 I'd be most willing to put my money into Histogen.

I think equity crowd funding is interesting.

I'd even put money into funding accelerating Pilofocus and teaching it everywhere (if it turns out to be a good new standard in HT technology).

How does that sound to you bro?

----------


## fuzzyballs

> So suggest a solution.


 Also how did you get your avatar to animate - I tried uploading an animated gif but to no avail.

----------


## hairquest

Desmond is doing a great job and i thank him for that. but it's sad to see that all of the solution are still year's away...
Not a single one are close or for the year to come...

----------


## joachim

> Hey Hell
> 
> Yes I did. I will email him tonight.
> Thank you
> 
> Joachim, I did go to the talk but didn't record it. Really sorry brother. I got caught up chatting with a researcher and didn't make it to the room in time to record the talk. I'll give you a summary of what was press Ted tonight though. Plz remind me. Cheers.
> 
> Jahodas team is presenting in about 2 hours. Arashi I've got the gear ready brother. I'm recording it no matter what lol


 ok, no problem.
maybe they have a flyer with some basic info and some pics on it.
take it with you if you find something like that...
would just like to know what it's about, although not a priority of course.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> I'd be most willing to put my money into Histogen.
> 
> I think equity crowd funding is interesting.
> 
> I'd even put money into funding accelerating Pilofocus and teaching it everywhere (if it turns out to be a good new standard in HT technology).
> 
> How does that sound to you bro?


 I want a cure as much as the rest of you guys but I wouldn't give any of my hard-earned money to any of the hair research crowd.  They can get their funding from traditional sources.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hellouser

Idea:

If we funded a research team through crowdfunding, could we not have an agreement that the treatment be released in a less regulation country that allows the use of stem cells as treatment? This would not only serve as a testbed for safety as it'd allow people to actually USE the treatment in larger numbers (no thanks to the FDA as it's objective is the exact opposite) as well as generate revenue to continue funding of clinical trials in strict jurisdictions (europe, USA, etc).

Thoughts????

----------


## JZA70

We shouldn't have to wait years and years for clinical trials. 

What Lauster is doing "could" be done by ourselves with some crowdfunding and a small lab area with equipment. 

We only need them to show us it can be done. Although it may seem like a long shot, I think its very possible.

We have to take the initiative to get things done ourselves, which is exactly what this thread is all about. 

Once they spill the beans on how their technique works, we should really consider giving it a go ourselves.

----------


## joachim

> Idea:
> 
> If we funded a research team through crowdfunding, could we not have an agreement that the treatment be released in a less regulation country that allows the use of stem cells as treatment? This would not only serve as a testbed for safety as it'd allow people to actually USE the treatment in larger numbers (no thanks to the FDA as it's objective is the exact opposite) as well as generate revenue to continue funding of clinical trials in strict jurisdictions (europe, USA, etc).
> 
> Thoughts????


 totally agreed.
would be interesting if this could be a possible way for lausters team.
if we could achieve such a deal, we should put the 20 million (or even more if necessary) into their research. as soon as proof of concept and safety is done, the technology should be made available. i don't know what desmond saw on their slides and pics, but it looks to me that proof of concept is already here, and might need some optimization to increase consisteny and efficacy. with safety i don't expect any troubles. however, a phase1 safety trial should be done. this takes 1 year maximum. in total it should not take more than 3 years maybe to enable some good multiplication (at worst case by factor 2 only, which would be doubling then, and already a cure if you go multiple times).

----------


## PaddyBateman

I like the idea of crowdfunding, but would the "investors" into this scheme get a % of the future profits of a successful outcome ? Otherwise it's a free option for those that accept the $.

----------


## joachim

hellouser: as soon as we got some basic info from desmond to see whats still missing to the puzzle we should seriously try to get in contact with lindner and discuss some further steps.
they also should tell us if money could accelerate the process or if there are still technical/biological hurdles to solve. if money is no problem at all for them because they have enough funding from germany (because it's a university-based research) or from other private investors, then we know at least that funding into other stuff would make more sense at the moment. then we can decide if cots should be evaluated further, or xu, or tsuji, histogen and others.

----------


## joachim

if you think about lauster/lindners progress so far it looks really good.

they showed in early 2010 that they created a full follicle which produced a hair in vitro already, in the petri dish / biochip. not sure if genetic properties were the same then or if this was one of the hurdles to work on.
this follicle was created with isolated existing cells probably, but not with multiplied cells i assume.
so the dp culturing problem was probably also present at that time.

desmond mentioned they had moved on at a much faster pace than he thought, regarding dp culturing. in the meantime also a lot of other researchers cracked the dp stuff, more or less. (maybe one method of culturing is more effective than other ones).

so i assume dp culturing is practically solved now. means that hair can be produced in vitro with the same genetic expression. as the follicle already produces hair in the dish, there will never be angle problems during implantation. i hope they implanted such a follicle already in a human. this is what i call proof of concept.

the next step would be the automatic mass production in bio reactors, so that many hairs are produced simultaneously and ready for implanting. i think that this could be the actual development they are still working on. because, such a reactor doesn't exist today, so they have to develop it from scratch. they are maybe even working with an external partner who is responsible for the mechanical and electronic design of the whole reactor machine. and if we can accelerate that by pumping some money into the development, this would be great.

when the reactor is ready, phase 1 would be the next logical step.

----------


## sdsurfin

> if you think about lauster/lindners progress so far it looks really good.
> 
> they showed in early 2010 that they created a full follicle which produced a hair in vitro already, in the petri dish / biochip. not sure if genetic properties were the same then or if this was one of the hurdles to work on.
> this follicle was created with isolated existing cells probably, but not with multiplied cells i assume.
> so the dp culturing problem was probably also present at that time.
> 
> desmond mentioned they had moved on at a much faster pace than he thought, regarding dp culturing. in the meantime also a lot of other researchers cracked the dp stuff, more or less. (maybe one method of culturing is more effective than other ones).
> 
> 
> ...


 



Once again ignoring most of the info we have received recently. The DP culturing problem is sort of solved, but they cannot make new DP cells from scratch.  this is what is needed in order to create many new follicles. Communication with Dr. Xu has revealed that making a functioning follicle from scratch is certainly possible, but no one is close to doing that yet and most people don't have enough funding. all they are able to do is form hair-like strands when they amass certain cells, like they have been able to do for a while now. this is not the same as building an entire healthy organ. Much less thousands of them.  The bioreactor is not a machine that makes follicles. it is an environment where you can keep something like a hair follicle alive. Basically a compartment.  I mean this is all interesting stuff, but it's in the same realm as making any other organ from scratch and using it, still decades away.  I also think that balding is something that affects the entire scalp, from my own experience it is an inflammatory and immune response, and everything from the fat cells to the skin cells to the follicles are affected. This is why it's easy to grow new hair with stem cells on mice, because it's not as hostile an environment. I don't think anyone will be able to implant new stem cells or follicles into balding scalp without running into a whole array of problems. transplants work because they implant a whole cut of non balding environment with the graft.  I'm sure that in the not too distant future, stem cell tech will be able to make follicles AND surrounding tissue from scratch and implant all of it, but jesus we are so so far from that in realistic terms.  I think maybe our grandsons won't have to worry, but by then the world is gonna be a shitshow anyway. might as well just be like our granddads and be bald and the biggest men we can be despite the fact.

----------


## JZA70

You make a lot of strong points SD. Awesome post.

----------


## Arashi

> Once again ignoring most of the info we have received recently. The DP culturing problem is sort of solved, but they cannot make new DP cells from scratch.


 Tsusji lab and Jahoda both did that

----------


## hellouser

> Tsusji lab and Jahoda both did that


 And from Desmond's talk with Dr. Lindner, it seems like Dr. Lauster's team overcame the DP cells problem as well.

Funny how we though Dr. Lauster shelved the whole project and then Desmond drops a bomb on us that they've purposely been quiet all these years.

----------


## nameless

> hellouser: as soon as we got some basic info from desmond to see whats still missing to the puzzle we should seriously try to get in contact with lindner and discuss some further steps.
> they also should tell us if money could accelerate the process or if there are still technical/biological hurdles to solve. if money is no problem at all for them because they have enough funding from germany (because it's a university-based research) or from other private investors, then we know at least that funding into other stuff would make more sense at the moment. then we can decide if cots should be evaluated further, or xu, or tsuji, histogen and others.


 I think we should get in touch with Linder but we should also get in touch with Cotseralis and others. We should find out if we crowdfund if they would let us either be subjects who get certain treatment (no double-blinding) or if they will agree to let the doctors use the treatment in just one country where the treatment would be legal so that those of us with the gumption could go and get the treatment. I would not care about owning a piece of the right to the company but if they offered that then I would not reject it. Mostly I would want them to accept that they would allow a doctor or doctors in one specific country to do the treatment as long as it's legal to do the treatment in that one country. 

If they won't agree to this then I don't think that there's any reason to try t crowdfund for them.

----------


## joachim

sdsurfin, i don't know what you mean by creating dp cells from scratch.
the one thing is to multiply them and the other thing is to bring them together in a 3D environment so that they are able to play, interact and communicate with each other to form the follicle.
lauster explained this in his video in 2010 already. they are totally aware of all problems and they are not simply arranging some cells together so that they can produce "hair-like" fibers.

this makes me believe that Xu is far away with his knowledge compared to lauster and tsuji.
by the way, if you exactly know that it's decades away after your talk with Xu why did you brought up the idea to crowdfund him?

from what i read and heard so far, the biochip is not only to keep an healthy environmont for existing follicles, it's also for providing an environment for the cells to form the 3D structure  of the follicle. but only for 1 follicle. the biochip arrangement has to be multiplied many times to create different environment chambers for each follicle. i could be wrong on that, but this is how i imagined that all the time.

we need the recorded video of dr. atac's presentation to get a picture of the whole process.

----------


## Slam1523

Why is everyone expecting such a long wait if the follicles can be reproduced with exactness?  Obviously the FDA will hold it up here,  but why isn't it on the cusp of being used in other countries?  Is there a hold up that I'm missing?  From what I've read follicles can be cloned for lack of a better word, so now what?

----------


## joachim

arashi, do you have a link to the experiments jahoda and tsuji labs did when they created a follicle? how did they exactly produce the follicle? how did the follicle with hair look like? like a normal hair with the same properties? is there something we are missing here?

----------


## hellouser

> Why is everyone expecting such a long wait if the follicles can be reproduced with exactness?  Obviously the FDA will hold it up here,  but why isn't it on the cusp of being used in other countries?  Is there a hold up that I'm missing?  From what I've read follicles can be cloned for lack of a better word, so now what?


 Thats why I suggested that we fund the researchers but make it available in countries where it is allowed. They could then use a portion of the profits from those procedures to further fund ongoing efforts to pass through clinical trials where health ministries are a nuisance; FDA.

----------


## TheSwingingGate

@sdsurfin

Good points about the condition of the entire scalp. My thoughts have been along the same lines. I have miniaturization everywhere, and my entire scalp has become hard and inflamed.

I agree that it is a problem of inflammation and immune response.

Hopefully these brilliant researchers are well on their way to tackling the scalp environment issue as well.

Being a diffuse thinner, isn't fun! :Embarrassment:

----------


## sdsurfin

> Why is everyone expecting such a long wait if the follicles can be reproduced with exactness?  Obviously the FDA will hold it up here,  but why isn't it on the cusp of being used in other countries?  Is there a hold up that I'm missing?  From what I've read follicles can be cloned for lack of a better word, so now what?


 Because it can't!!!! what is so hard to understand??? No one, and I mean no one, has created a fully functioning human follicle from all human cells. Lauster made a measly one, and christiano et al grew a measly one in foreskin on a mouse.  Tsuji used MOUSE DP cells and human epithelial cells to grow hair on a bald mouse. They can also no create a hair like fiber from human cells. This is different from a full follicle with a cycling temrinal hair and sebaceous glands etc etc.  

Also, you are all wrong about creating new DP cells. They can culture cells from the back of your head, multiply them to some degree, and now retain good inductivity (which does not mean full gene expression, it just means they are able to create some kind of hair).  What Dr. Xu is working on is making DP cells from stem cells, like he did with epithelial cells.  When you culture existing DP cells, it is time consuming, cells get damaged and lose gene expression, and it is not a productive way to make the basics for new follicles. this is what Dr. Xu has explained if you take the time to read my previous posts.  He has stated that with good funding, his team can make DP cells from stem cells and then work on making a whole follicle, but that it will take around ten years. This is pretty much where all the teams are at.  yes, someone will probably make a hair follicle in the next decade (and even then, we don't know if it will have a sebaceous gland or if it will survive and cycle corecly). then they will have to figure out how to mass produce these, test them, go through FDA, figure out how they are implanted by the thousands, figure out if they will survive in balding scalp (especially for those who are already bald, i assume the fibrotic and scarred nature of the scalp will pose further problems), and who knows how many other obstacles. In other words, I'm interested in the science and helping it progress for new generations, but we are pretty screwed.  That's why when Aaron gardner wrote to me, he said that a good treatment is "somewhere on the horizon" and that they are "moving towards it", but "no one knows what obstacles will arise."  

People on this forum don't understand science, and the complications that come with creating a human organ.  it's amazing that they know what they know, but what we really need now is just a treatment that keeps us looking decent until we're around 50 and dont give a crap anymore, and that doesnt kill our brains and penises.  I'm fully down to crowdfund, but I don't expect it to help my generation much, unless is still care about this crap when I'm an old man.

----------


## hellouser

> @sdsurfin
> 
> Good points about the condition of the entire scalp. My thoughts have been along the same lines. I have miniaturization everywhere, and my entire scalp has become hard and inflamed.
> 
> I agree that it is a problem of inflammation and immune response.
> 
> Hopefully these brilliant researchers are well on their way to tackling the scalp environment issue as well.
> 
> Being a diffuse thinner, isn't fun!


 Then why are transplanted hairs from donor areas (sides and back) immune to miniaturization?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

have cots or linder post their crowdfund here: http://www.crowdcube.com/

then anybody giving money has an actual stake in the profits after, rather than just giving it away like charity.

----------


## Arashi

> Because it can't!!!! what is so hard to understand??? No one, and I mean no one, has created a fully functioning human follicle from all human cells. Lauster made a measly one, and christiano et al grew a measly one in foreskin on a mouse.  Tsuji used MOUSE DP cells and human epithelial cells to grow hair on a bald mouse.


 1) The only reason that Jahoda's hair was 'measly' was that in the process of culturing the DP cells, not all genes were retained, some got lost in the process. According to Desmond all  research groups said that this year they've all overcome that problem and can now culture DP cells while retaining all genes expressed !

2) You're wrong about Tsuji, they grew a HUMAN hair follicle on a mouse, based on cells taken from human donors. The DNA of the produced hair was analysed and it turned out it was 100&#37; human.

So, what's then still between us and a cure ? That's exactly the question that Desmond asked them and he said he got an answer from Lauster's group and that he's just waiting on their green light to tell that to us.

----------


## TheSwingingGate

Couple points.

Not everyone that has a hair transplant is successful. By and large most are, but some people's transplanted hair eventually wipes out in the balding areas.

Perhaps the donor was unstable, not yet considered part of the MPB "zone" at time of transplant, the work wasn't done properly, there could be several reasons.

My point Hellouser, was more from a personal standpoint. I am fairly certain I have DUPA, cannot tolerate Finasteride, and may not have a stable donor area. My entire scalp is affected, man it went quick, so I hope that there is some research going into the scalp environment along with the follicular neogenesis. I want my scalp to feel normal again too some day!

Further, I am hairstylist, I have felt thousand of scalps over the years, and there seems to be strong correlation between scalp condition and hair miniaturization, or degradation. These clients are men and women, and while not all of them are "balding" but rather diffusely thinning, I have been able to watch the process happen over the course of years.

Lastly, I don't buy in to the theory that balding is just a part of getting older. I doesn't happen to everyone. I have seen 70, 80 year old men and women with full heads of hair. Everyone's face ages, that is fact. Part of getting older. Not everyone goes bald. If it was part of the aging process, it would happen to everyone. I have even watched my clients for changes in face shape correlated to the balding process, thinking one aging area surely would correlate to the other so close on the head, nope, no connection.

----------


## Slam1523

> Because it can't!!!! what is so hard to understand??? No one, and I mean no one, has created a fully functioning human follicle from all human cells. Lauster made a measly one, and christiano et al grew a measly one in foreskin on a mouse.  Tsuji used MOUSE DP cells and human epithelial cells to grow hair on a bald mouse. They can also no create a hair like fiber from human cells. This is different from a full follicle with a cycling temrinal hair and sebaceous glands etc etc.  
> 
> Also, you are all wrong about creating new DP cells. They can culture cells from the back of your head, multiply them to some degree, and now retain good inductivity (which does not mean full gene expression, it just means they are able to create some kind of hair).  What Dr. Xu is working on is making DP cells from stem cells, like he did with epithelial cells.  When you culture existing DP cells, it is time consuming, cells get damaged and lose gene expression, and it is not a productive way to make the basics for new follicles. this is what Dr. Xu has explained if you take the time to read my previous posts.  He has stated that with good funding, his team can make DP cells from stem cells and then work on making a whole follicle, but that it will take around ten years. This is pretty much where all the teams are at.  yes, someone will probably make a hair follicle in the next decade (and even then, we don't know if it will have a sebaceous gland or if it will survive and cycle corecly). then they will have to figure out how to mass produce these, test them, go through FDA, figure out how they are implanted by the thousands, figure out if they will survive in balding scalp (especially for those who are already bald, i assume the fibrotic and scarred nature of the scalp will pose further problems), and who knows how many other obstacles. In other words, I'm interested in the science and helping it progress for new generations, but we are pretty screwed.  That's why when Aaron gardner wrote to me, he said that a good treatment is "somewhere on the horizon" and that they are "moving towards it", but "no one knows what obstacles will arise."  
> 
> People on this forum don't understand science, and the complications that come with creating a human organ.  it's amazing that they know what they know, but what we really need now is just a treatment that keeps us looking decent until we're around 50 and dont give a crap anymore, and that doesnt kill our brains and penises.  I'm fully down to crowdfund, but I don't expect it to help my generation much, unless is still care about this crap when I'm an old man.


 K just a couple things...  First of all calm down!  It was a question so pull the line bavk on that thong of your's so it doesn't ride any higher and toss bavk a few ruby relaxers...  Thanks for the explanation but bro take a few anxiety mess before blowing up next time!

----------


## joachim

so what you're saying, sdsurfin, is that Xu goes the way of creating dp cells from iPS cells (pluripotent stem cells), which are easy to multiply but still not figured out how to turn them into DP cells. is this what you mean?

because this is a whole different approach. both ways lead to the result we want.
if culturing DP cells is solved now by multiplying them, there is no need to go the way with iPS cells anymore (DP cells problem can only be seen as solved if gene expression is achieved). if Xu manages to create DP cells from iPS cells then he still has the major problem that he has to arrange the cells in a 3D environment so that they form a follicle. a task which other teams are doing already.

about the sebasceaus glands: from what i read so far, i'm pretty sure the gland is not required while creating the follicles. once the follicles are implanted they will attach to the existing ones in the scalp. because the glands are still all there in the scalp, independent of bald or not bald.
also, none of these researchers ever said that they have a problem with the seb. glands. none of them is trying to create them too. (or did i miss something?)

regarding hair cycles: this is actually a good question. best case scenario would be that the lab-grown follicles do not fall into the normal cycling scheme and just produce hair all the time =)
worst case: they fall out after 2 or 3 years and don't grow back. so you would have to go for treatments every few years. wouldn't be that bad. if this were the case and they would try to market it under this circumstances, they would have to drastically reduce the price of the procedure.

----------


## Arashi

> so what you're saying, sdsurfin, is that Xu goes the way of creating dp cells from iPS cells (pluripotent stem cells), which are easy to multiply but still not figured out how to turn them into DP cells. is this what you mean?
> 
> because this is a whole different approach. both ways lead to the result we want.
> if culturing DP cells is solved now by multiplying them, there is no need to go the way with iPS cells anymore (DP cells problem can only be seen as solved if gene expression is achieved). if Xu manages to create DP cells from iPS cells then he still has the major problem that he has to arrange the cells in a 3D environment so that they form a follicle. a task which other teams are doing already.
> 
> about the sebasceaus glands: from what i read so far, i'm pretty sure the gland is not required while creating the follicles. once the follicles are implanted they will attach to the existing ones in the scalp. because the glands are still all there in the scalp, independent of bald or not bald.
> also, none of these researchers ever said that they have a problem with the seb. glands. none of them is trying to create them too. (or did i miss something?)
> 
> regarding hair cycles: this is actually a good question. best case scenario would be that the lab-grown follicles do not fall into the normal cycling scheme and just produce hair all the time =)
> worst case: they fall out after 2 or 3 years and don't grow back. so you would have to go for treatments every few years. wouldn't be that bad. if this were the case and they would try to market it under this circumstances, they would have to drastically reduce the price of the procedure.


 Yep you're right Joachim !

Man I'm  just dying to hear from Desmond what he's found out from Lauster's group regarding what's still standing between us and a cure. Can't wait to hear it !

----------


## joachim

also if we take a look at the video where lauster presents his follicle back in 2010 it looks like they're approach of creating the 3D environment for forming the follicle is different from what we heard from others. culturing methods like hanging drops or pva tubes etc. are not used here it seems to me. seems like they have a special method here to let the cells interact with each other and form the follicle. this is maybe the reason why they are ahead of others in regards of dp gene expression. 

other thoughts?

----------


## Arashi

> other thoughts?


 We need Desmond to enlighten us  :Smile:  He's got all the info we desperately seek... Is the roadblock that's left just a minor one ? Like getting the HF's to develop hair in the right angle ? Or is it something that will need a lot of fundamental research ? The only hint that Desmond has given us so far is that we're 'VERY close', I'm just hoping that that's not just his optimism speaking  :Smile:

----------


## joely

I hope very close does mean very close, but didn't he say something about 2020-2023?

----------


## Arashi

> I hope very close does mean very close, but didn't he say something about 2020-2023?


 That's of course  including clinical trials, so the moment when we can expect it on the market in the western world. I was talking about a cure in the form of a succes cloning hair on humans, so a success pre clinical trials. Once that happens I'm popping the champagne  :Smile:  But it seems Desmond seems to think that might happen this year or the next.

----------


## hellouser

> have cots or linder post their crowdfund here: http://www.crowdcube.com/
> 
> then anybody giving money has an actual stake in the profits after, rather than just giving it away like charity.


 Won't work.

You need to promote/market it. Having a donation page just sit idle won't get you anywhere.

----------


## hellouser

> That's of course  including clinical trials, so the moment when we can expect it on the market in the western world. I was talking about a cure in the form of a succes cloning hair on humans, so a success pre clinical trials. Once that happens I'm popping the champagne  But it seems Desmond seems to think that might happen this year or the next.


 Gotta find a workaround to those overly long clinical trials. 8 years is overkill. Dr. Lauster's team should look into releasing the product as soon as possible wherever allowed to get the profits rolling.

If its possible to clone our hair now.... why wait with an arbitrary number of years? 8 years is just a made up number by the FDA and other health ministries. It doesn't mean anything.

----------


## The Alchemist

Of course, he's referring to "very close" in the pre-clinical sense.  After the preclinical is tackled, which should take a few years, if we are indeed "very close" then you can add to that 10+ years for fund raising, clinical trials and commercialization.  So you're talking, realistically, anywhere from 10-20 years.

Depending on your age, this could be good or bad news.

----------


## CAlex

I think Desmonds "VERY CLOSE" means he/researchers believe we are close to solving it. But just in the lab. 

It would still need 8-10 years of clinical trials after that though.

Downside is how many times have we thought just one last hurdle in this nightmare though?? Too many times its thought all we have to do is figure out "X" and then its solved. It just seems to be hurdle after hurdle.

the frustrating part is we dont seem to know how many more surprise hurdles are left to solve.

----------


## nameless

> Gotta find a workaround to those overly long clinical trials. 8 years is overkill. Dr. Lauster's team should look into releasing the product as soon as possible wherever allowed to get the profits rolling.
> 
> If its possible to clone our hair now.... why wait with an arbitrary number of years? 8 years is just a made up number by the FDA and other health ministries. It doesn't mean anything.


 
Hellouser as soon as we find out what Desmond has I'm going to start talking to that gentleman in the Caribbean who's having scientists do the anti-aging treatments at his clinic (including on himself) and discuss with him the possibility of him starting the cell based therapies for hair loss at his clinic. But first we have to see what Desmond has. I'm not 100% sure he will do it but I think there's a very strong possibility that he might and I will definitely try to pursue a major discount to us all at TBT since we brought this info to him. 

As a matter of fact I was thinking that I would initiate a dialogue with him next week on Wednesday, which is a day off for me. I was thinking I would initially make a phone call and then set-up a 3 way dialogue between you, he, and I so all 3 of us can discuss this. I was thinking I might bring Desmond and Arishi into the conversation to if they would be agreeable. 

Again, I'm not making any promises that he will do it but I do feel that we have an in with him because he's already doing stem cell treatments that are not legal in the US. And he has real scientists on staff. This looks like a good set-up.

----------


## Arashi

> the frustrating part is we dont seem to know how many more surprise hurdles are left to solve.


 And that's exactly the reason why being at this congress was so important: to hear, for the first time in the history of this community,  directly from the researchers themselves:

1) Where we currently stand
2) What hurdles are left (if any)
3) What timeframe they expect themselves

It seems Desmond got all that from Lauster's group, hopefully he can release all his info to us and hopefully he got to speak to Jahoda's group too, that would be awesome.

----------


## Hicks

> If its possible to clone our hair now.... why wait with an arbitrary number of years? 8 years is just a made up number by the FDA and other health ministries. It doesn't mean anything.


 Toll road. Need to make the cure a monthly treatment and an affordable rate $150-400 a month. Investors are looking for Return.

----------


## hellouser

> Toll road. Need to make the cure a monthly treatment and an affordable rate $150-400 a month. Investors are looking for Return.


 Let's put it this way;

The average cost of a proper FUE of about 2,000 grafts costs about $10,000. (You could argue this but whatever). Suppose each procedure lasts one full day (likely won't, theres no harvesting time required). You perform procedures all year round, monday - friday, so 260 days a year (lets omit holidays for now).

This equates to 2.6 million dollars in revenue off one doctor in one year and thats simply going by the low end cost for such a procedure. Open up 4 clinics with a 2 doctors each and you're banking in a crazy amount of money; 2.6 x 8 = 20.8 million dollars per year. You take a cut of that to pay for equipment, clinic space rental, etc and you can not only pay the doctor but have vasts amount of money to pay for clinical trials with FDA and in Europe without a) asking for grants from the German/EU government b) crowdfunding c) venture capitalists

I'm fairly sure Dr. Lauster and Dr. Lindner will want to patent their methods so NOBODY will be able to copy them either, thereby securing the entire market all to themselves for decades to come. They not only get the ball rolling early, but the income pays for everything else they do in the lab.

Just need to find a country that will allow it after one safety trial.

----------


## Arashi

GOOOOOOOOOD morning Desmond  :Big Grin:  How are you doing today, on the last day of the congress ? Some interesting speeches, SY8, FC6 and SY10 seem to have some interesing ones. Anyway could you give us a quick update on yesterday ? And good luck again brother ! It's just 3.5 hours today (afternoon program doesn't seem that interesting although maybe our female readers are interested in LS5-1 and LS5-2)

----------


## Desmond84

> GOOOOOOOOOD morning Desmond  How are you doing today, on the last day of the congress ? Some interesting speeches, SY8, FC6 and SY10 seem to have some interesing ones. Anyway could you give us a quick update on yesterday ? And good luck again brother ! It's just 3.5 hours today (afternoon program doesn't seem that interesting although maybe our female readers are interested in LS5-1 and LS5-2)


 Hahaha good morning Arashi  :Smile: 

Yesterday was probably the reason why we came here. Most of the interesting lectures were presented yesterday including Dr Jahodas work, Lauster and the Japanese. One thing I should mention is that they are all well aware of each others work even of the work of those that didnt attend. A lecture even summarised how far along the Chinese and Taiwanese have come! Something I didn't realise they knew about u til it was presented.

A lot of great information got recorded man. I'll let you and others to decipher it once its all uploaded.

PS. All of those lectures you pointed out for today are on my record list lol...even the female hairloss one at the end.

Cheers guys. Got to start recording.

----------


## Arashi

> Hahaha good morning Arashi 
> 
> Yesterday was probably the reason why we came here. Most of the interesting lectures were presented yesterday including Dr Jahodas work, Lauster and the Japanese. One thing I should mention is that they are all well aware of each others work even of the work of those that didnt attend. A lecture even summarised how far along the Chinese and Taiwanese have come! Something I didn't realise they knew about u til it was presented.
> 
> A lot of great information got recorded man. I'll let you and others to decipher it once its all uploaded.
> 
> PS. All of those lectures you pointed out for today are on my record list lol...even the female hairloss one at the end.
> 
> Cheers guys. Got to start recording.


 Wonderful again Desmond and I'm happy to hear that all the researchers are very well aware of each other's work and progress, that's a great thing. Good luck on the last day !!

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Won't work.
> 
> You need to promote/market it. Having a donation page just sit idle won't get you anywhere.


 I wasn't saying don't market/promote it. They could set it up through there, than it's not a "donation" page-- its a stake in the outcome that you're buying--> just like a real investor. 

This give people more incentive to give, aka we can raise more money faster. 

Do you understand the difference between donation and equity crowdfunding? Do you know the difference between charity and a stock? I'm asking seriously not pretentiously.

----------


## ccc123

Hey guys.

I've been lurking on this site for a couple of months now and sometimes in these arguments I do not know who I should be listening to.

I know that Desmond is a Ph.D student but is anyone else here a hair researcher/bio grad student?

----------


## Hicks

> Hey guys.
> 
> I've been lurking on this site for a couple of months now and sometimes in these arguments I do not know who I should be listening to.
> 
> I know that Desmond is a Ph.D student but is anyone else here a hair researcher/bio grad student?


 Welcome to the jungle!

----------


## re22

Desmond, earlier you mentioned you believed there could potentially be an effective treatment for AGA by the 2020s. Have any of the researchers you've interviewed given you a concrete estimation as to when they believe a treatment, or treatments, will be available? If so, how confident are they that it will be within the next 10-20 years?

Thank you for all the work you've been doing.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Then why are transplanted hairs from donor areas (sides and back) immune to miniaturization?


 Actually they eventually are too, and also, transplanted hairs are inside of a small cylinder of skin from the back of your head. Arashi and hellouser and others are getting people way too psyched up.  Arashi- the fact that tsuji made a hair follicle that was genetically human does not mean that it was a proper, cosmetic follicle with full gene expression. full gene expression is not the same as 100 percent human.  Have you seen a pic of that hair?? It's tiny and meager.  The hairs that they made sprout from the mouse's neck, and which look thick, were made using mouse DP cells, and are on a MOUSE. Desmond has not reported anything except for the vague statement that several teams have continued to progress with retaining DP cell inductivity. In the grand scheme of things, we already knew this, and it doesn't mean very much. All it means is that we can retain DP cell inductivity. that's it. Inductivity means that these cells have capacity to send signals to make some kind of hair. 


To say that retaining DP inductivity is the same as curing baldness is like saying that culturing a certain kind of eye cell is the same as making a whole new eyeball.  Making a new follicle is no less complex than making a new heart or eyeball, and it is probably more difficult to put into use, because unlike with a heart, our head is dead set against making it grow.  Retaining inductivity in one type of cell doesn't mean that we can clone a whole follicle or that we can make thousands of them, or that we know if these theoretic follicles would even survive in balding scalp.  Dr. Xu is a hair scientist, as is Aaron gardner. I have talked to both, and they are the ones who have clarified this for me.  In order to culture and create enough follicles, DP cells need to be mass produced from stem cells, the interactions between follicle stem cells need to be precisely figured out, and then they need to figure out exactly how hair growth and cycling is signalled with the outside environment.  don't hold your breath guys. Someone will most likely make A new follicle by the end of this decade. the steps between that and growing a full head of hair are huge. Like cotsarellis said, it took rogaine 8 years just to put out the foam instead of the liquid.  

People on here forget that the loss of the follicle is only the tip of the iceberg. The entire scalp turns fibrotic as you bald, and it's also been shown that the fat cells in balding scalp are also prone to die off and send bad signals to the follicles.  Propecia probably stops working after a while partly because that part of the scalp has been progammed since puberty to promote balding.  This is why this disease has not been cured, and why it probably won't be within our lifetimes.  you're dealing with a very complex set of genetic chains that commence when very young, and involve not only the follicles, but also the skin, fat cells, immune system, etc.

----------


## sdsurfin

> 1) The only reason that Jahoda's hair was 'measly' was that in the process of culturing the DP cells, not all genes were retained, some got lost in the process. According to Desmond all  research groups said that this year they've all overcome that problem and can now culture DP cells while retaining all genes expressed !
> 
> 2) You're wrong about Tsuji, they grew a HUMAN hair follicle on a mouse, based on cells taken from human donors. The DNA of the produced hair was analysed and it turned out it was 100% human.
> 
> So, what's then still between us and a cure ? That's exactly the question that Desmond asked them and he said he got an answer from Lauster's group and that he's just waiting on their green light to tell that to us.


 "According to Desmond all research groups said that this year they've all overcome that problem and can now culture DP cells while retaining all genes expressed !"

No one ever said this. Not even desmond really. The only thing we know for sure that these teams have achieved is the same as what christiano and jahoda put on the news. A greater expression of genes in DP cells.  That's it. No one said anything about maintaining full gene expression. Also, even if you culture a few DP cells with full gene expression, as you keep culturing them, they degrade.  Thats why Xu is trying to make DP cells from scratch, something that will take many more years.  in order to make tens of thousands of follicles, you need an exponentially greater number of DP cells, and multiplying them in culture is not enough. That's why his creation of epithelial cells from IPS cells was a breakthrough.  Unless desmond comes back with the news that someone has made DP cells from scratch, then there's nothing too game changing here.

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys,

We have come to the end of the 2014 World Congress for Hair Research. I personally want to thank everyone who contributed to this project both financially and time wise. We really showed that we have the numbers to really gather the information that may contribute to a future cure. We are definitely becoming a force to be reckoned with. 

A lot of the researchers at the congress were actually really impressed with the fact we were recording the talks and wanted to know how they could access it and were so happy to hear they'll be simply uploaded to youtube.

In some ways, with recording these presentations we have provided a platform for researchers to look back at some of these presentations to help drive their own projects move ahead faster.

I will be leaving Jeju Island in the morning and will be spending a few days in Hong Kong with a few friends before flying back to Australia on Friday. My aim is to at least upload the key talks by next Sunday night. 

It's been a pleasure giving back to the community that helped me out when I was so lost and depressed with my own hair. 

In terms of the talks, they were very scientific which will require a lot of brainstorming with the science guys on our forum to really gather what is actually happening. 

The general consensus however is that the hair regeneration research is finally yielding some amazing results and we are seeing human hair follicles forming. Although there is some ironing out to do, there are at least 10 research teams that are working on these problems, which is really great indeed. I personally felt that Dr Jahoda's team are having the most in depth analysis of culturing DP hair follicles and seem to have the funding to do it. Dr Lauster's team is also approaching the follicle regeneration from a different angle through chip technology which is also fascinating indeed. Both teams are very knowledgeable and are giving very optimistic hints regarding a cure in the near future, with some of them hinting at NW7-NW1 transition if their approach succeeds in the coming years.

Thanks guys once again. And check back here next weekend for the talks.

Reporting live from Jeju Island on the last day of the congress.

Desmond.

----------


## Haircure

So Desmond based on what you have seen so far what is your rough estimation on how far the research has progressed, and how long will it take for any of the potential treatments to be available and not just in the U.S.? 

Again thank you for your efforts and to everyone else who contributed on this venture.

----------


## inspects

Desmond,

I haven't been around the forum for a while, I didn't see the link to donate to the cause. I'm not sure where you stand, but the information you're bringing back should be invaluable.

I know it costs a fortune to be out of your native country for a week.

If (Arashi) or anyone else could show me the link to donate, please do. 

Thank you very much for all the work you did this week, greatly appreciated.

Dale

----------


## joely

Inspecs, if you go to the thread "funding Desmond to go to wchr" which is also in cutting edge / future treatments, the line is on the first page there sir

----------


## Arashi

> Hey guys,
> 
> We have come to the end of the 2014 World Congress for Hair Research. I personally want to thank everyone who contributed to this project both financially and time wise. We really showed that we have the numbers to really gather the information that may contribute to a future cure. We are definitely becoming a force to be reckoned with. 
> 
> A lot of the researchers at the congress were actually really impressed with the fact we were recording the talks and wanted to know how they could access it and were so happy to hear they'll be simply uploaded to youtube.
> 
> In some ways, with recording these presentations we have provided a platform for researchers to look back at some of these presentations to help drive their own projects move ahead faster.
> 
> I will be leaving Jeju Island in the morning and will be spending a few days in Hong Kong with a few friends before flying back to Australia on Friday. My aim is to at least upload the key talks by next Sunday night. 
> ...


 So this was it Desmond. Looking forward to the presentations and maybe even more important, the report from your talk with Lauster's Team.

On behalf of the whole community I would like to thank you for all of the time, energy, effort and money (I know you still have invested some yourself) you've put into  this !! We trusted in you and you showed to be the perfect man for this job, to help us out here, to be our ears and eyes on the conference and even make friends with some of the  top researchers. Invaluable ! 

Enjoy your last few days in Hong Kong and we'll talk soon again brother !

And last but most certainly not least: a big thank you to everybody who contributed and made this possible !! We showed that we can get something done as a community, which made me really hopeful for future projects !

----------


## Arashi

And special thanks to Hellouser, for all of his work, communicating with the science teams etc. Great job !!

----------


## Arashi

And my own summary of what Desmond has presented us so far:

** The bad:* 

 - Cotsarelis/Follica. He's not so far as we had hoped, seems to even have funding problems and in short doesn't seem to be the horse to bet on.

** The good:*

- Lauster ! Back from the dead !  :Big Grin:  While people thought this pioneer of hair follicle engineering had switched to other research fields or even had given up, nothing turned out to be farther from the truth, they've made good progress since their breakthrough a few years ago and according to desmond they're now 'very close' to a preclinical cure.

- At least 10 international research teams are working on this, some of we (or at least I) had never heard before.

- All of the teams solved Jahoda's problem from last year and all can culture DP cells while retaining gene expression.

- Desmond reached the end goal of this trip: finding out where we currently are and identifying the roadblock that's left: what's still standing between us and a cure now it turned out pretty much everybody can culture DP cells while retaining gene expression. Awaiting his report on this.

- Desmond recorded the key speeches, we will need to analyze them, hopefully the scientific members like Boldy and Mari0s will help here too.

- Desmond made friends with some of the top researchers like those from Lauster's team, undoubtfully that's a great asset.

All-in-all a great succes !

----------


## walrus

> Hey guys.
> 
> I've been lurking on this site for a couple of months now and sometimes in these arguments I do not know who I should be listening to.
> 
> I know that Desmond is a Ph.D student but is anyone else here a hair researcher/bio grad student?


 Biology PhD here.

----------


## Arashi

Oh and also interesting: Desmond said that he found out why Aderans failed. Most definitely very interesting info !

----------


## KJ1982

Many thanks to all involved with this, with special mention going to *hellouser* and *Desmond* in particular.

I confess it's a little disheartening to hear that we may still be some ten years or so from a cure (which will place me in my forties) though there is still comfort to be found in the knowledge that it's likely I may be able to return to a NW1 at some point.

It's a shame that trials will take so long to complete; are there no territories in which they could be reduced as is the case with stem cell research in Japan?  :Smile:

----------


## joachim

> "According to Desmond all research groups said that this year they've all overcome that problem and can now culture DP cells while retaining all genes expressed !"
> 
> No one ever said this. Not even desmond really. The only thing we know for sure that these teams have achieved is the same as what christiano and jahoda put on the news. A greater expression of genes in DP cells.  That's it. No one said anything about maintaining full gene expression. Also, even if you culture a few DP cells with full gene expression, as you keep culturing them, they degrade.  Thats why Xu is trying to make DP cells from scratch, something that will take many more years.  in order to make tens of thousands of follicles, you need an exponentially greater number of DP cells, and multiplying them in culture is not enough. That's why his creation of epithelial cells from IPS cells was a breakthrough.  Unless desmond comes back with the news that someone has made DP cells from scratch, then there's nothing too game changing here.


 is this the case, desmond? has sdsurfin a point here?

----------


## joachim

> Oh and also interesting: Desmond said that he found out why Aderans failed. Most definitely very interesting info !


 probably because they concentrated on 2D culturing only. extract cells, multiply them and inject back is not enough. isn't replicel going with the same approach? then they will fail, too =(

----------


## nab

hello everyone im new here great first of all i would like to thank desmond and others involved in this..this is a great step in the right direction..together nothing is impossible.

i dont think cots and his team need any money i personally think he was just trying to avoid questions and didnt wanna go into details.. i do think they will come up with something..but will take time thats for sure

a cure doesnt have to come in next 10-20 years if we work together and fund a team which really wants to bring something to the market then its not impossible say 4-6 years.. all they need is to avoid usa/fda. money is a very powerful tool when there is enough money and a dedicated team im sure its more than possible after all at the end its all about money. big drug companies will never ever bring us a cure because that way they wont make much money as they are right now by selling propecia and rogaine.

im only a norwood 2 but hey guys if we wotk together im sure we will have something within 6 years remember the ground research and minor problems are already solved 

im personally willing to chip in a whole month of salary whenever there is crowdfunding or even more 

trust me we can and we should do it lets stop being miserable and stop whining lets take matters in out own hands
with money u can buy happiness let alone tiny hairs lol

and why im being positive is because i know some people in the field of medical the biggest hurdle always is money according to them

i know together we can 

sorry for my bad english im an asian from sweden

----------


## joachim

if lauster, jahoda and Xu are really at least 5 years away from a working proof of concept, i mean a perfectly cloned hair, then we should really consider investigating what Dr. Cots has, and if he really is able to bring a kind of bridge for 2 million crowdfunded money. like i said, if he is able to create some hairs with wounding and lithium but maybe not that dense as desired than it's still worth a try. i think it can't be worse than histogen if he says it would be better than minox and fin. the big difference here is, creating hair denovo on bald scalp, not only maintain existing hairs.
however, maybe he is talking BS and wants to get some money, but we should try to find it out and not ignore it. we're talking about wounding for years now but we still don't have a clue how it works. is it just firing a laser onto the skin and apply a lotion or what is about?
we need his phase2 trial results to get an idea of what is going on.

and damn, also i would like to hear an official statement from him why they stated they were able to create consinstently new hairs and VERY CLOSE to releasing a product. it's not funny anymore. 

we need to bridge the next 10 years somehow, and CB and pilofocus won't do that job.

as soon as we have more details from desmond, we seriously should try to get in touch with him for a little a talk. we will then quickly find out if he is bullshi****** around and making a fool of us or not.

----------


## joachim

> hello everyone im new here great first of all i would like to thank desmond and others involved in this..this is a great step in the right direction..together nothing is impossible.
> 
> i dont think cots and his team need any money i personally think he was just trying to avoid questions and didnt wanna go into details.. i do think they will come up with something..but will take time thats for sure
> 
> a cure doesnt have to come in next 10-20 years if we work together and fund a team which really wants to bring something to the market then its not impossible say 4-6 years.. all they need is to avoid usa/fda. money is a very powerful tool when there is enough money and a dedicated team im sure its more than possible after all at the end its all about money. big drug companies will never ever bring us a cure because that way they wont make much money as they are right now by selling propecia and rogaine.
> 
> im only a norwood 2 but hey guys if we wotk together im sure we will have something within 6 years remember the ground research and minor problems are already solved 
> 
> im personally willing to chip in a whole month of salary whenever there is crowdfunding or even more 
> ...


 well said. i'm also thinking that way. money can and will move mountains.
but first we need more details from desmond

----------


## nab

i dont like this guy cots.... plus they have funds i remember they raising as much as over 20million usd couple of years ago... we should get in touch with other teams outside us such as lausters team.. onething is for sure a cure wont come out of usa they are too busy spending on defense lol

forget cots jahoda/chines/japanese and lausters they all are working on a cure not on something that will just give us maybe couple of hundreds of hair one of the above team should be supported we should really pump some money and take whole thing to a cheaper country with the same doctors its possible man.. if we can build a nuclear bomb/ walk on moon why cant we this... its possible thats all i have to say

----------


## sdsurfin

I'm pasting the email replies I got from Dr. Xu at Penn and Aaron Gardener again, so that you guys understand that a preclinical cure is not at hand, despite progress as witnessed by desmond at the congress. These emails are about a month old and from two top researchers in the field. 
---------------------------------------

from Xu:


sdsurfin- To make hair follicle, DP cells are required as you know. DP cells can only be isolated from hair follicles. One hair follicle, one DP cell aggregate. To make more hair follicles, you will need more DP cells aggregates. One recent study  (Higgins et al., 2013) showed that DP cells can maintain their follicular genetic capacity if they are cultured in 3D. If you read the paper carefully, they used passage 2-3 cells to make a DP cell aggregate in the culture. Since each DP aggregate contains many cells, it means that this procedure can maintain DP cell folliculogenecity, but not necessarily make more DP cell aggregates. Therefore, the auhtors may or may not be able to make more DP cell aggregates (and more hair follicles) than the original hair follicles that they have taken out from the patients.

Foreskin is very different than scalp. Foreskin is usually from infants and we found that there are lots of stem cells in the foreskin, but the number of stem cells are far less in adult scalp. Thus, transplant the DP cell aggregates to scalp will not work in adult.

To make more DP cells and keep these DP cell with folliculogenecity, we need different approaches, other than what has been described. Our goal is to find a way to make DP cells proliferate and maintain their folliculogenecity. We can use growth factors or transcription factors; or alternatively using iPSC approach to make more DP cells which I think is very much possible.

George  

----------------
from Garder:

Sorry for the slow reply Ive been away on holiday.

Im not up to speed as to why the various other groups are using their techniques, hopefully will be able to get an update on their work at an upcoming conference. As to why they might use single cell populations, I guess just to identify key promoters in each population. Mixing cultured populations in a 3D model is something that Im currently working on but currently not at the stage where we can assay inductiveness in vivo.


Maintaining the inductivity seems to go hand in hand with reducing the cells proliferation, when in a matrix/3D model the DP slow down their proliferation and this may have something to do with partially restoring their inductivity. Our current thinking is to rapidly expand the DP in culture then revert them to their inductive state. As to what will happen if we do get follicles successfully forming in vivo Im not sure if they themselves will miniaturise over time, I think thats a question for a later date.

Not sure on time courses for treatments, I can see things moving onwards but not sure what if any problems will arise over time.

Cheers,

Aaron
-----------------------------------------------------


So let me point out the key issue here, as it took me a while to understand:
Basically, as you split cells in the lab (a passage 2 or 3 cell is a cell that is basically 2 or 3rd generation), they change and lose their original genetics.  What gardner is saying is that if you slow down the multiplication of the DP cells, they stay "fresher".  Now, the problem is that to make many new follicles, you need many many more DP cells! It's a catch 22, because you can multiply the hell out of them, but the more you do that, the more they become crap.  

What Dr. Xu is saying is similar. You can take a DP cell aggregate from the back of your head and culture those cells and now maintain some or hopefully in the future all inductivity, but that doesn't necessarily mean you are making more aggregates.  I suppose whether you can make more aggregates depends on how many of the individual cells you can get to proliferate while maintaining their gene expression, and that's why he's saying that diferent growth factors etc have to be figured out, or we have to make DP cells from scratch.  that way, all the cells you have are "good" ones, and they can all take their time making their own aggregates.  Right now the only thing being done is taking out clumps, then taking them apart, and then putting them back together again, with no net gain necessarily.  

So you can see that these are hurdles that are being worked on and will eventually be overcome, but we really are talking years from this until a full follicle is made. and then, as gardner says, even if a follicle is formed in vivo, there could be a million other possible problems. If Dr. Xu is right and the scalp of an adult has way less stem cells than that of a foreskin, then imagine the fibrotic and fat-less scalp of a bald man.  People assume that because the new follicles that Tsuji implanted into a mouse connected with existing tissues means that the same will happen in humans. I think that by the time you're bald or balding, your scalp is programmed for the sebaceous glands, the fat cells, etc to degrade, and putting a healthy new follicle into shitty balding scalp is not going to result in proper connections.  it's like putting a good plant in bad soil. My guess is that a cure for this will only come when an entirely new scalp skin can be bioengineered, which will surely happen some day, just not within our lifetimes.

----------


## Swooping

Investing in Cotsarelis is the worst thing you can do. I guess Desmond did not have the time to talk more in depth about this with him. But i would have surely have asked critical questions about that quote. He has no investors or fundings, he lost the faith of potential ones. That is really no wonder obviously. Never did we have ANY proof of de-novo morphogenesis in human beings induced by wounding. And i'm 100&#37; he has not achieved that no way. 

It was known by paper "Controllable production of transplantable adult human high-passage dermal papilla spheroids using 3D Matrigel culture". That they solved the DP gene expression problem. But creating a whole hair follicle is on a totally other level. Till now they only managed to induce a tiny brittle hair fiber like substance. Are they advancing? YES. But are they close to the "cure"? Nope that is still a pretty long while away if you ask me. Even if they had the cure now there are several factors which may hold us back of getting it in the coming years.  

Good job for reporting in Desmond  :Smile: .

----------


## sdsurfin

> Investing in Cotsarelis is the worst thing you can do. I guess Desmond did not have the time to talk more in depth about this with him. But i would have surely have asked critical questions about that quote. He has no investors or fundings, he lost the faith of potential ones. That is really no wonder obviously. Never did we have ANY proof of de-novo morphogenesis in human beings induced by wounding. And i'm 100% he has not achieved that no way. 
> 
> It was known by paper "Controllable production of transplantable adult human high-passage dermal papilla spheroids using 3D Matrigel culture". That they solved the DP gene expression problem. But creating a whole hair follicle is on a totally other level. Till now they only managed to induce a tiny brittle hair fiber like substance. Are they advancing? YES. But are they close to the "cure"? Nope that is still a pretty long while away if you ask me. Even if they had the cure now there are several factors which may hold us back of getting it in the coming years.  
> 
> Good job for reporting in Desmond .


 
exactly.  the hair follicle is a complex organ, and does not grow itself. there is a whole chain(s) of chemicals and interactions between all of the types of cells that go towards making one follicle.  even when we have enough of each type of cell, it's like saying, ok here are some nuts and bolts, now make a ferrari without much experience or machinery.  you have to figure out exactly how to piece it all together.  the fact that they are doing this with hearts and livers etc should provide some hope of possibility, but this is really only the beginning. the mere fact that it's even a possibility is really quite amazing, we can discuss all we want on here, but really the processes involved in crafting a whole organ are so incredibly complicated.  I have more hope that in ten years they will have isolated more specific growth factors proteins etc that signal your existing follicles, and come up with a better drug than propecia. the androgen receptors are only the broadest signal, but they are starting to understand more specifically how the cells tell each other what to do.  i think the most hopeful and applicable thing that desmond reported on was that team from singapore and their isolation of signaling proteins in the DP cells.

----------


## joachim

in other words: bald for the rest of our lives. a cure in 10 years or longer is inacceptable. once you go bald and get used to it, i'm not sure you will ever go back, even if there is a cure in 10 to 15 years. thus, there's no reason in discussing treatments which are that far away. if it turns out that it's common opinion of the researchers (also from lauster) that a treatment is definitely 10 years away and nobody is willing to start earlier treatments in unregulated countries, then that's it. shave the head and move on anyhow. this is what i will do.

----------


## Haircure

> in other words: bald for the rest of our lives. a cure in 10 years or longer is inacceptable. once you go bald and get used to it, i'm not sure you will ever go back, even if there is a cure in 10 to 15 years. thus, there's no reason in discussing treatments which are that far away. if it turns out that it's common opinion of the researchers (also from lauster) that a treatment is definitely 10 years away and nobody is willing to start earlier treatments in unregulated countries, then that's it. shave the head and move on anyhow. this is what i will do.


 Basically from what I understand there will be no cures for roughly 10 years and the next upcoming treatments are cb, histogen and possibly replicel that will most likely be released in under 5 years. So get a transplant and have decent coverage until then is what I'm considering

----------


## breakbot

If Cotsarelis was up to something better than finasteride and minoxidil he wouldn't have for sure a problem finding those money.
Typical Cotsarelis...
As for something better from the existing therapies this is cb if things go as well as i hope and may be bimatoprost.
A promising stuff for me is the Singapore team as Desmond said, if there was a fda substance approved  .
I hope we have some further  information on this.

----------


## Haircure

> If Cotsarelis was up to something better than finasteride and minoxidil he wouldn't have for sure a problem finding those money.
> Typical Cotsarelis...
> As for something better from the existing therapies this is cb if things go as well as i hope and may be bimatoprost.
> A promising stuff for me is the Singapore team as Desmond said, if there was a fda substance approved  .
> I hope we have some further  information on this.


 I'm not so sure about Bimatoprost, I had spoken to a prominent hair loss expert and from what he told me, the trials that are being done haven't shown much promise. According to him they were using a dosage of 0.3% compared to that of latisse which contains only 0.03% and that the results were not better than minoxidil.

----------


## Arashi

@Sdsurfin: while some of what you said are valid points, I think you're exaggarating. First of all, we only need 1 proliferation passage in theory: if we can double the amount of HF's in the safe zone of the scalp, we have enough hair to give people back their original density. I'm not sure I understand though what XU is saying. He seems to think we can't even double the cells, but that's the very definition of cell proliferation/culture  :Smile:  Or does he mean that not all cells are usuable ? Can you maybe find that out ? 

Then, you overestimate the process. Tsuji and Jahoda proved the cells do all the work themselves, they self assemble into aggregates when put into the right 3d environment. Yes the HF is a complex organ but so is a trachea and we have people walking around nowadays with lab stem cell generated trachea's !

The point regarding future problems is valid though, we don't know what happens with the hairs after time, they might miniturize. Or cancer might develop. All things that need to be checked out in the future.

Also the point regarding foreskin is valid, BUT that doesn't mean per definition that it won't work on adult skin. 

And lastly, you said that skin regenation wont happen in a lifetime. This group of spanish researchers is planning to start CLINICAL TRIALS (!!) to do that this year already  :Smile:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1122084407.htm

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## Arashi

Here the video btw where they state that they will start clinical trials regarding artificial skin this year: 



This only is the epidermis though, for hair regeneration the dermis itself is most probably more important. Still, 'not going to happen in our lifetimes', seems a bald exaggeration IMHO

----------


## joachim

in spite of the positive developments researchers made, these last congress news from desmond opened my eyes. baldness is unstoppable for another decade at least. wouldn't be surprised if even more delays come and add some additional years.
if it even turns out that there are still some unsolved problems which have to be researched first within the next years, we then even have no guarantee that something will be here in 10 years definitely. thus, no bridging plans can be worked out if we are not sure a cure will come. don't know what to say anymore. it's all over in my opinion. another decade time to sell bogus treatments. and another decade for nigam to mess around. i still can't believe nothing came out of his doubling stuff. not one single case he can show where doubling was successful.

----------


## Arashi

> in spite of the positive developments researchers made, these last congress news from desmond opened my eyes. baldness is unstoppable for another decade at least. wouldn't be surprised if even more delays come and add some additional years.
> if it even turns out that there are still some unsolved problems which have to be researched first within the next years, we then even have no guarantee that something will be here in 10 years definitely. thus, no bridging plans can be worked out if we are not sure a cure will come. don't know what to say anymore. it's all over in my opinion. another decade time for all the scammers out there to sell bogus treatments. and another decade for nigam to mess around. i still can't believe nothing came out of his doubling stuff. not one single case he can show where doubling was successful. what a clown.


 Let's first wait on Desmond's reports and recordings before drawing definite conclusions, that was the whole reason he went there ! If you are surprised by the fact that we need clinical trials, anybody could have told you that. It's just a fact of the western world. It's bad for us but compared to the more serious stuff hairloss is a joke man. For example, Merck currently holds a medicine that halts melanoma cancer growth in 88&#37; of the people (while normally these poor people die within a year). They called it MK-3475. They have it in their hands and it works. But they cant release it to the public just yet, although they've succesfully finished phase III trials, they still need to go through FDA clearance, which might take another 6 months. A lot of people with metastatic melanoma's wont live anymore by then ... Can you imagine their frustration ? There's a drug that can save their life but they're not allowed to take it. That just puts our problems in perspective man ...

----------


## Kudu

> Let's first wait on Desmond's reports and recordings before drawing definite conclusions, that was the whole reason he went there ! If you are surprised by the fact that we need clinical trials, anybody could have told you that. It's just a fact of the western world. It's bad for us but compared to the more serious stuff hairloss is a joke man. For example, Merck currently holds a medicine that halts melanoma cancer growth in 88% of the people (while normally these poor people die within a year). They called it MK-3475. They have it in their hands and it works. But they cant release it to the public just yet, although they've succesfully finished phase III trials, they still need to go through FDA clearance, which might take another 6 months. A lot of people with metastatic melanoma's wont live anymore by then ... That just puts our problems in perspective man ...


 Damn, I couldn't  imagine  knowing that there was a treatment  that could save my life yet unable use due to clearance...

----------


## Kudu

> Let's first wait on Desmond's reports and recordings before drawing definite conclusions, that was the whole reason he went there ! If you are surprised by the fact that we need clinical trials, anybody could have told you that. It's just a fact of the western world. It's bad for us but compared to the more serious stuff hairloss is a joke man. For example, Merck currently holds a medicine that halts melanoma cancer growth in 88% of the people (while normally these poor people die within a year). They called it MK-3475. They have it in their hands and it works. But they cant release it to the public just yet, although they've succesfully finished phase III trials, they still need to go through FDA clearance, which might take another 6 months. A lot of people with metastatic melanoma's wont live anymore by then ... That just puts our problems in perspective man ...


 Damn, I couldn't  imagine  knowing that there was a treatment  that could save my life yet unable use due to clearance... You would think more people would be pushing for reform.

----------


## J_B_Davis

> Let's first wait on Desmond's reports and recordings before drawing definite conclusions, that was the whole reason he went there ! If you are surprised by the fact that we need clinical trials, anybody could have told you that. It's just a fact of the western world. It's bad for us but compared to the more serious stuff hairloss is a joke man. For example, Merck currently holds a medicine that halts melanoma cancer growth in 88% of the people (while normally these poor people die within a year). They called it MK-3475. They have it in their hands and it works. But they cant release it to the public just yet, although they've succesfully finished phase III trials, they still need to go through FDA clearance, which might take another 6 months. A lot of people with metastatic melanoma's wont live anymore by then ... Can you imagine their frustration ? There's a drug that can save their life but they're not allowed to take it. That just puts our problems in perspective man ...


 Well said Arashi. People really need to keep things in perspective. There has actually been some good news for those suffering with late stage melanoma who qualify for MK-3475.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/p...-patients.html

What frustrates me most about some of the guys on this forum is they are so busy concentrating on what they dont have instead of focussing on all that they do have. Good health, both physical and mental is #1. Hair loss sucks, but it can be conquered with a healthy mind and spirit.

----------


## joachim

yes, that's hard.

indeed i'm often ashamed of myself when i take baldness so serious while there are so many other people around with life threatening pains and diseases.

however, hairloss is still a huge problem for all of us. for me personally, hairloss has changed my life to the negative and it will never be the same again. it's all in our heads, and everyone's case is relative. most non-balding persons will never understand what's going on in our minds, because it's "only" a cosmetic problem. for me, it's actually the biggest pain in the a** and i can't stand the ups and downs anymore in this forum.

----------


## J_B_Davis

> yes, that's hard.
> 
> indeed i'm often ashamed of myself when i take baldness so serious while there are so many other people around with life threatening pains and diseases.
> 
> however, hairloss is still a huge problem for all of us. for me personally, hairloss has changed my life to the negative and it will never be the same again. it's all in our heads, and everyone's case is relative. most non-balding persons will never understand what's going on in our minds, because it's "only" a cosmetic problem. for me, it's actually the biggest pain in the a** and i can't stand the ups and downs anymore in this forum.


 There is no doubt that its hard. I would not be here if I was completely cool with it, but life does go on if you let it. I looked much better with a full head of hair,  but I never let that get in the way of my life. Im on this forum for the same reasons as everyone else, but  sitting on pins an needles waiting for any scrap of news that gives us hope for a cure is not a healthy way to live. I take what I can form what I read and there are weeks that I dont even come here

----------


## Mugwump

> Hey guys.
> 
> I've been lurking on this site for a couple of months now and sometimes in these arguments I do not know who I should be listening to.
> 
> I know that Desmond is a Ph.D student but is anyone else here a hair researcher/bio grad student?


 I'm a long time lurker too...

Current med student in Philadelphia but have a studied molecular bio and biochemistry in undergrad and in a masters program. Even still, some of this stuff is way over my head and probably is for others too. 

As an aside, I used to work in research at a U Penn affiliated lab (Dr. Cotsarelis is Penn affiliated). Never knew of the guy because I was really really low on the food chain  and worked in heme/onc, but from his profile it looks like he is still a clinician too. Having worked with research physicians I bet his interests extend way beyond just trying to discover novel treatments for hair loss. I'm sure like anyone he would be interested in making money from the silver-bullet solution to hair loss, but a lot of big time research scientists are way more into their actual publications and research achievements. I personally know of some people in research who could care less about money, but care A LOT about their publications, contributions to their field, awards and accolades, etc. They have reputations within their field that they are way more concerned about than money. Maybe this guy falls into this field. Who knows?

What I mean is that I just can't see this guy going after a $2 mil crowdsourcing plan. He could end up looking kind of goofy to his colleagues. Just my 2 cents.

Although I could totally be wrong too. Maybe he is just trying to make a buck. You never know with the dermatology guys - they like to get paid. ;-)

Anyway, I'm really interested to read/watch the stuff Desmond has gathered.

----------


## nameless

> if lauster, jahoda and Xu are really at least 5 years away from a working proof of concept, i mean a perfectly cloned hair, then we should really consider investigating what Dr. Cots has, and if he really is able to bring a kind of bridge for 2 million crowdfunded money. like i said, if he is able to create some hairs with wounding and lithium but maybe not that dense as desired then it's still worth a try. i think it can't be worse than histogen if he says it would be better than minox and fin. the big difference here is, creating hair denovo on bald scalp, not only maintain existing hairs.
> however, maybe he is talking BS and wants to get some money, but we should try to find it out and not ignore it. we're talking about wounding for years now but we still don't have a clue how it works. is it just firing a laser onto the skin and apply a lotion or what is about?
> we need his phase2 trial results to get an idea of what is going on.
> 
> and damn, also i would like to hear an official statement from him why they stated they were able to create consistently new hairs and VERY CLOSE to releasing a product. it's not funny anymore. 
> 
> we need to bridge the next 10 years somehow, and CB and pilofocus won't do that job.
> 
> as soon as we have more details from desmond, we seriously should try to get in touch with him for a little a talk. we will then quickly find out if he is bullshi****** around and making a fool of us or not.


 
+1

You hit the nail on the head. I'm saying and thinking the exact same thing.

----------


## Sogeking

> yes, that's hard.
> 
> indeed i'm often ashamed of myself when i take baldness so serious while there are so many other people around with life threatening pains and diseases.
> 
> however, hairloss is still a huge problem for all of us. for me personally, hairloss has changed my life to the negative and it will never be the same again. it's all in our heads, and everyone's case is relative. most non-balding persons will never understand what's going on in our minds, because it's "only" a cosmetic problem. for me, it's actually the biggest pain in the a** and i can't stand the ups and downs anymore in this forum.


 Hey man, to be honest with you I am rooting more for a possibility of slowing or reversing aging, than a hairloss cure  :Smile: . Imagine if they could reverse aging, than a severeal years being bald doesn't mean a thing  :Big Grin: .

However on the aging front we are kinda 2-3 decades away :/.

I agree that hairloss sucks, enough so that I am willing to frequent message boards and hope for the cure, but you know what life goes on. There are so many fascinating stuff coming. Science is amazing. MY main reason to have hair is just being more attractive to girls and finding that someone, however they say to some girls having hair is not important. I'll test that theory and let  others know  :Big Grin: .


Yeah the hair loss cure is 10+ years away. It sucks big time. But still there will be a cure, we know it.

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## kobefan234

i guess my bridge will be fin for the next xx amount of years.  :Frown:

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## nameless

> i guess my bridge will be fin for the next xx amount of years.


 
What's wrong with possibly crowd-funding $2 million so we can turn Cotserlis's $2 million treatment plan into our bridge?

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## locke999

> i guess my bridge will be fin for the next xx amount of years.


 If you are able to take fin without side effects then why wouldn't you.

It's either you can take it or you can't. If you can, you don't need to worry and start saving your hair now.

I wish I didn't have side effects from taking it, but because I do, I am still on this forum. If I didn't, I would take it everyday and no worry another day about hair loss.

----------


## Thinning@30

I'm actually looking forward to hearing about the burning scalp syndrome presentation.  I have terrible scalp itch and it sometimes manifests as a painful burning sensation.  I really hope there was some good news on this condition.

----------


## JZA70

Although baldness isn't a threat to your health, it can still easily destroy your life. 

We cant undermine the damage that hair loss has done to us. Hair loss should be ranked up there with other serious diseases. 

It will be a real kick in the teeth if most of us go through our 20's and 30's with hair loss and then a full blown cure gets released when we are in our 40's and 50's. 

Its a shame because we only live once. No amount of hair can ever give us our youth back.

----------


## HairlossAt15

Lets not spam the thread with our sob stories (bit late now) lol.

----------


## hellouser

Gut feeling tells me that if there's still no solid evidence of any lab grown follicles used on human scalp yet, theres no point in trying to raise any kind of funds to give to the researchers for a 'shot in the dark' when we are in desperate need of treatments RIGHT NOW.

If thats the case, then the $2 million should be raised and have a superior treatment to finasteride; Follica. In the meantime, im sure we could muster up some cash and fund Histogen too. A treatment from Histogen and Follica would benefit a very large number of us and would likely bridge us until a full out cure. I'm STILL puzzled why Follica can't be considered a cure if they said they are able to create NEW follicles. Desmond really need to fill us in on this if Follica's current treatment can be a cure if 2 or more treatments are required. I'm willing to wound my head multiple times to get a full head of hair.

If no research team has had success on lab grown follicles on humans, that means we're still some time away on pre-clinical success and many more years until a commercial release... so, 8 years minimum regardless. In that time, we should be focusing on whats available to us at the earliest possible date; Histogen in Asia and Follica in USA. Soon after that CB will be made available with the addition of Pilofocus.

Now, I don't have a high tolerance for mediocrity as all those options are shit by my standards; go big or go home, but the reality is that not enough has been done thus far to cure us in the near future. Only way for us to get a cure is IF there's a solution that works on humans soon and IF a doctor or team are willing to skirt around FDA and other crap by performing the procedure in less regulated jurisdictions; India. I don't see it happening soon for us any other way.

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## JZA70

Funding Follica would be absolutely retarded. We don't even know anything about their method and how or if it actually works. 

No way anyone would pay for that.

----------


## zeos

> If thats the case, then the $2 million should be raised and have a superior treatment to finasteride; Follica. In the meantime, im sure we could muster up some cash and fund Histogen too. A treatment from Histogen and Follica would benefit a very large number of us and would likely bridge us until a full out cure.


 I totally agree

----------


## kobefan234

> What's wrong with possibly crowd-funding $2 million so we can turn Cotserlis's $2 million treatment plan into our bridge?


 Nothing is wrong with that idea. I hope he has a efficacious product that will help.

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## Pentarou

> What's wrong with possibly crowd-funding $2 million so we can turn Cotserlis's $2 million treatment plan into our bridge?


 Nothing, bar the wailings of the Perpetual Negativity Brigade. We should seriously consider it.

----------


## Kurtis

What if we aimed for a million+ dollar pot of crowd sourced donations and offered it to the lab/group/ scientist who proposed the best, most potentially feasible solution?

----------


## Kurtis

Not looking like we have much to feel hopeful about. Sadly.

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## Arashi

> Nothing, bar the wailings of the Perpetual Negativity Brigade. We should seriously consider it.


 
Agreed.  Lets wait for desmond to return and he/we should contact cots to find out more details. I agree with the sceptics that it sounds somewhat fishy but lets at least find out what he has to say and offer

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Agreed.  Lets wait for desmond to return and he/we should contact cots to find out more details. I agree with the sceptics that it sounds somewhat fishy but lets at least find out what he has to say and offer


 hopefully you guys demand a business plan before you just send over $2M to cots.

USE EQUITY-BASED CROWDFUNDING. 


***DO NOT JUST DONATE***

I repeat, DO NOT JUST DONATE.

I say this for various reasons.

----------


## Sogeking

> Agreed.  Lets wait for desmond to return and he/we should contact cots to find out more details. I agree with the sceptics that it sounds somewhat fishy but lets at least find out what he has to say and offer


 2 mill is reachable and if it offers us something better than minox or fin and with almost no sides, why not it would be a good interim treatment. 
So yeah lets wait for Desmonds input next weekend and than we'll see how to proceed.

----------


## hellouser

> 2 mill is reachable and if it offers us something better than minox or fin and with almost no sides, why not it would be a good interim treatment. 
> So yeah lets wait for Desmonds input next weekend and than we'll see how to proceed.


 Who knows if it even maintains or allows am NW7 to NW1/2 transformation with multiple treatments. 

Let's not kid ourselves, anything better than finasteride in ONE SHOT would be a welcome addition to our options.

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys,

I just skimmed through the discussions. Tbh the vibe I got from Dr Cotsarelis is that the wounding trials and whatever was being used in conjunction to it was not sufficient to produce consistent hair regrowth. He also kept his distance throughout the conference and really didn't wanna talk to me about any of this stuff. I personally walked away feeling Follica is not something we should be focusing on so much anymore. Furthermore, Dr Cotsarelis himself hardly mentioned anything about the effects of wounding on hair regeneration even though he had 3 presentations total of 2 hours! He spent most of the time discussing PGD2 and fgf9. So I think even he has kind of moved on.

I am really excited about the work coming out of Germany. They're definitely onto something and are keeping it hush hush.

Dr Jahodas team was also very keen on finding out what other labs have achieved and in almost every single presentation regarding culturing DP cells they got up and asked several questions about the work being presented. They were also taking lots of photos of the slides and data being presented.

Another thing I also realised was what gets presented at these congresses is the work they completed at least 12-18 months ago! Most of these teams are well beyond what they are presenting! They never mention anything about unpublished work for obvious patent issues I suppose.

So I don't think ppl should be so pessimistic. One thing I realised this week was that they guard their work like a top secret KGB file. They avoid any question outside of what got presented and simply give a generic answer like "that's where we will be looking at next" or "that is a very good question! <giggles>" and every one has a laugh! It was quite intriguing actually.

That's why I think we should take into account that what they claim they have achieved is old news inside their labs and one can only imagine how much further they actually may be!

Dr Cotsarelis is also a very big figure in the world of hair and just asking for a moment of his time is such a big deal. Believe me. It took me several attempts and lots of charm to get 5 minutes with him. So I doubt he would ever get back to us if we email him. 

Hope that helps guys. Cheers

----------


## Scientalk56

Guys, you are the best. great work!
thank you desmond for all the information you are giving us!

----------


## rhysmorgan

> Hey guys,
> 
> I just skimmed through the discussions. Tbh the vibe I got from Dr Cotsarelis is that the wounding trials and whatever was being used in conjunction to it was not sufficient to produce consistent hair regrowth. He also kept his distance throughout the conference and really didn't wanna talk to me about any of this stuff. I personally walked away feeling Follica is not something we should be focusing on so much anymore. Furthermore, Dr Cotsarelis himself hardly mentioned anything about the effects of wounding on hair regeneration even though he had 3 presentations total of 2 hours! He spent most of the time discussing PGD2 and fgf9. So I think even he has kind of moved on.
> 
> I am really excited about the work coming out of Germany. They're definitely onto something and are keeping it hush hush.
> 
> Dr Jahodas team was also very keen on finding out what other labs have achieved and in almost every single presentation regarding culturing DP cells they got up and asked several questions about the work being presented. They were also taking lots of photos of the slides and data being presented.
> 
> Another thing I also realised was what gets presented at these congresses is the work they completed at least 12-18 months ago! Most of these teams are well beyond what they are presenting! They never mention anything about unpublished work for obvious patent issues I suppose.
> ...


 It's very hard keeping up with this thread as it's full of so many conversations we've had a million times in other threads. 

Who are you alluding to regarding Germany Desmond? Why do you think they are onto something? What did they say exactly?

Thanks

----------


## joachim

forget about wounding completely is the conclusion here. fgf9 is lightyears away and will be rendered useless once tsuji or lauster or jahoda has the solution.

in the end, in 10 years when a cure is out he will tell that his fundamental research milestones has lead to this. in 1 or 2 years you will read another headline in the news with a breakthrough from him but not practically usable at all. remember my words. Cots is over. forget about follica completely is my advice, if Cots is not even interested in anything.
even nigam will come up with a better treatment than cots one day.

lauster, jahoda, or tsuji, that's the question now. i can't wait to here the exact details from desmond, where lauster stands. did they ever created an exact hair duplicate or what's holding them back??? this question is crucial. unless we don't see a lab grown sprouting hair on a human scalp it's all theoretical BS only and can mean everthing and nothing. they should show us what they have. man, they are anyway protected by patents i assume. would be insane otherwise.

----------


## joachim

i would really like to hear from jahoda his explanation of what puzzle is still missing. he did the hair experiment on the arm a few years ago already. and i think he's more open than other guys. do we have a way to contact him?
@ hellouser: as you are working on the info graphic (hairloss roadmap or however you call it) maybe it would be a good reason for a talk with jahoda, if you somehow find a way to contact him. letting him know that you're working on a graphic to raise awareness and so on.
i have a feeling jahoda would be willing to give out some info this way.

----------


## john2399

> forget about wounding completely is the conclusion here. fgf9 is lightyears away and will be rendered useless once tsuji or lauster or jahoda has the solution.
> 
> in the end, in 10 years when a cure is out he will tell that his fundamental research milestones has lead to this. in 1 or 2 years you will read another headline in the news with a breakthrough from him but not practically usable at all. remember my words. Cots is over. forget about follica completely is my advice, if Cots is not even interested in anything.
> even nigam will come up with a better treatment than cots one day.
> 
> lauster, jahoda, or tsuji, that's the question now. i can't wait to here the exact details from desmond, where lauster stands. did they ever created an exact hair duplicate or what's holding them back??? this question is crucial. unless we don't see a lab grown sprouting hair on a human scalp it's all theoretical BS only and can mean everthing and nothing. they should show us what they have. man, they are anyway protected by patents i assume. would be insane otherwise.


 Lol, Follica is over after one little 5 min interview, in which Dr.Cots could have been hesitant to actually say anything.

----------


## Thinning@30

Hi Desmond,

Did you attend the presentation on Burning Scalp Syndrome? How was it? If you can share anything with the forum that would be great.  Thanks again for attending the congress and keeping us all in the loop about everything!

----------


## Scientalk56

> i would really like to hear from jahoda his explanation of what puzzle is still missing. he did the hair experiment on the arm a few years ago already. and i think he's more open than other guys. do we have a way to contact him?
> @ hellouser: as you are working on the info graphic (hairloss roadmap or however you call it) maybe it would be a good reason for a talk with jahoda, if you somehow find a way to contact him. letting him know that you're working on a graphic to raise awareness and so on.
> i have a feeling jahoda would be willing to give out some info this way.


 
We're not going to have a better treatment in 10 years.. sadly
but there's nothing we can do.

----------


## nameless

> Hey guys,
> 
> I just skimmed through the discussions. Tbh the vibe I got from Dr Cotsarelis is that the wounding trials and whatever was being used in conjunction to it was not sufficient to produce consistent hair regrowth. He also kept his distance throughout the conference and really didn't wanna talk to me about any of this stuff. I personally walked away feeling Follica is not something we should be focusing on so much anymore. Furthermore, Dr Cotsarelis himself hardly mentioned anything about the effects of wounding on hair regeneration even though he had 3 presentations total of 2 hours! He spent most of the time discussing PGD2 and fgf9. So I think even he has kind of moved on.
> 
> I am really excited about the work coming out of Germany. They're definitely onto something and are keeping it hush hush.
> 
> Dr Jahodas team was also very keen on finding out what other labs have achieved and in almost every single presentation regarding culturing DP cells they got up and asked several questions about the work being presented. They were also taking lots of photos of the slides and data being presented.
> 
> Another thing I also realised was what gets presented at these congresses is the work they completed at least 12-18 months ago! Most of these teams are well beyond what they are presenting! They never mention anything about unpublished work for obvious patent issues I suppose.
> ...


 
I love what you've done Desmond but some of what you're saying seems somewhat contradictory. Let me explain why:


First I think you said that Cotseralis said $2 million could get a treatment to market that is better than minoxidil/Propecia. Then I think you said the treatment he was referring to has completed phase 2 so it would only have to undergo a phase 3. Then you said that Cotseralis appears to have walked away from wounding therapy. I think that these 3 statements seem to contradict each other because I think his only therapy that could have already completed phase 2 is his wounding therapy. He only recently came out with his info about FGF9 and PGD2 so he can't possibly have reached phase 2 with either of them yet, plus it's unlikely he knows for certain how effective a PGD2 based treatment or an FGF9 based treatment would be so I really don't think he was referring to either of them as his treatment that would be better than minoxidil/propecia but would not turn a bald man into a NW1. I think that most likely his treatment that has completed phase 2 is likely his wounding treatment but it could also be something that he has never talked about before, however, I think it's highly doubtful that the treatment he has (that's better than minox/propecia) is either PGD2 related or FGF9 related because neither of these treatments have had the time to complete phase 2 for hair growth yet. 

You might be right that he won't communicate with us but I still think we should try. I think we should try to find out what treatment he is referring to that has completed phase 2 and would require only $2 million to finish off the phase 3 and bring to market. 

I can't reconcile all the information you have about Cotseralis and IMHO that means we should try to get more info from him via email before we conclude to completely forget about him. He may be our best chance at a bridge between our situation now and the 10 long years when a real cure will finally come to market. I think we should try to get more information about what his $2 million treatment is that has already completed phase 2.

----------


## joachim

so true.

the funny thing about it is: the researching teams let it look like it's a big race and everyone is trying to be the first on the market. that's ridiculous considering the 10+++ year timelines.

it's just sad, sad, sad. prepare yourself for a bald life. i'm going to shave my head within the next weeks. daydreaming about the big milestone, how they grow new hair on bald scalp, is just making me sick =}
time for a new chapter in life: the bald truth

----------


## walrus

> forget about wounding completely is the conclusion here. fgf9 is lightyears away and will be rendered useless once tsuji or lauster or jahoda has the solution.
> 
> in the end, in 10 years when a cure is out he will tell that his fundamental research milestones has lead to this. in 1 or 2 years you will read another headline in the news with a breakthrough from him but not practically usable at all. remember my words. Cots is over. forget about follica completely is my advice, if Cots is not even interested in anything.
> even nigam will come up with a better treatment than cots one day.


 The armchair scientists/fortune tellers are out in force.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> so true.
> 
> the funny thing about it is: the researching teams let it look like it's a big race and everyone is trying to be the first on the market. that's ridiculous considering the 10+++ year timelines.
> 
> it's just sad, sad, sad. prepare yourself for a bald life. i'm going to shave my head within the next weeks. daydreaming about the big milestone, how they grow new hair on bald scalp, is just making me sick =}
> time for a new chapter in life: the bald truth


 The ten year timeline is the point at which you can pick up your phone, call a treatment center, set an appointment for next week and walk out with a full head of hair-- aka the treatment has passed FDA approval.

There is very much a race to a viable, trial-able, solution. That will be determined in the next 2 years.

My guess is whoever finds the solution will go through FDA trials, and will also offer it much much sooner somewhere else-- once he or she feels the treatment is reasonable safe.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

If they find it in the next 2 years, we'll be able to get it in asia or africa, or somewhere, in the next 5 years-- if not sooner. 

When you're talking about picking up the phone and making an appointment in the US, thats 10 years away.

----------


## Armandein

Thank you to all for the interest in discover the truht of hair loss

----------


## nameless

> If they find it in the next 2 years, we'll be able to get it in asia or africa, or somewhere, in the next 5 years-- if not sooner. 
> 
> When you're talking about picking up the phone and making an appointment in the US, thats 10 years away.


 
Yea but according to you the cure for hair loss is Pilox and it will be on the market in a few months. LOL!

----------


## joachim

> If they find it in the next 2 years, we'll be able to get it in asia or africa, or somewhere, in the next 5 years-- if not sooner. 
> 
> When you're talking about picking up the phone and making an appointment in the US, thats 10 years away.


 5 years or sooner only if the researcher groups are willing to enable earlier treatments in unregulated countries, meaning they reveal their IP and know how. i wouldn't bet on this. i have a feeling that the germans wouldn't like to risk their image if they release it earlier and something goes wrong then. i believe the germans will go the normal conservative way...

----------


## Haircure

> I love what you've done Desmond but some of what you're saying seems somewhat contradictory. Let me explain why:
> 
> 
> First I think you said that Cotseralis said $2 million could get a treatment to market that is better than minoxidil/Propecia. Then I think you said the treatment he was referring to has completed phase 2 so it would only have to undergo a phase 3. Then you said that Cotseralis appears to have walked away from wounding therapy. I think that these 3 statements seem to contradict each other because I think his only therapy that could have already completed phase 2 is his wounding therapy. He only recently came out with his info about FGF9 and PGD2 so he can't possibly have reached phase 2 with either of them yet, plus it's unlikely he knows for certain how effective a PGD2 based treatment or an FGF9 based treatment would be so I really don't think he was referring to either of them as his treatment that would be better than minoxidil/propecia but would not turn a bald man into a NW1. I think that most likely his treatment that has completed phase 2 is likely his wounding treatment but it could also be something that he has never talked about before, however, I think it's highly doubtful that the treatment he has (that's better than minox/propecia) is either PGD2 related or FGF9 related because neither of these treatments have had the time to complete phase 2 for hair growth yet.


 Didn't Desmond say that whatever the researchers presented was at least 10-12 months old work? So how is it hard to believe that they did his wounding therapy, FGF9 and PGD2 a while back? It makes sense now those research papers he published are done months after and even possibly years after the initial results, trials and findings. That and the take home message from the start was that Follica is a very secretive company so it would be safe to assume that whatever cots has published via research article has already seen some form of trial. And lastly the treatment that was promised I believe was light skin perturbation via peeling the scalp in order to prime it for applying the growth factor FGF9 and or a PGD2 inhibitor. If I'm not mistaken these substances are know to the FDA so who is to say they haven't trialled it already?

----------


## Artha

What about the recorded video?

----------


## sascha

http://www.biotechnologie.de/BIO/Nav...id=167608.html

here is anoter article about the german researchers Lauster and Marx.
If you want I can translate it tomorrow. Most important line: "Schon im kommenden Jahr wollen die Berliner in klinischen Studien ihre Haarkommandozentralen am Menschen erproben."
That means that next year, article was posted in 2013 so I mean 2014, clinical trials will begin to test the hair-commando-central-unit in humans.

----------


## joachim

> http://www.biotechnologie.de/BIO/Nav...id=167608.html
> 
> here is anoter article about the german researchers Lauster and Marx.
> If you want I can translate it tomorrow. Most important line: "Schon im kommenden Jahr wollen die Berliner in klinischen Studien ihre Haarkommandozentralen am Menschen erproben."
> That means that next year, article was posted in 2013 so I mean 2014, clinical trials will begin to test the hair-commando-central-unit in humans.


 hey sascha, what a great find!!! i just read the article (my first language is also german) and i'm impressed. the article indeed says that first tests/trials on human should start in 2014. i wonder if they told that desmond too, or didn't they disclose it. i assume this trials can be seen as phase 0 then. phase 1 could start in 3 or 4 years according to desmond's opinion. not sure why he thinks that. maybe he is right because they still have some work to do. on the other side, if everything goes well with their first tests, maybe an official phase 1 could start sooner. phase 1 is the most critical milestone here.

----------


## joachim

really seems like they are even ahead of tsuji labs and jahoda.

but who knows. maybe just another article which gives us hope but doesn't mean anything.

again, we need desmond here with his info. and the recorded video about the biochip.

----------


## sascha

> really seems like they are even ahead of tsuji labs and jahoda.
> 
> but who knows. maybe just another article which gives us hope but doesn't mean anything.
> 
> again, we need desmond here with his info. and the recorded video about the biochip.


 Yes I think Desmond is totally badass and I can´t wait until he clears things up, but lets face it he does not know whats going on. Spencer does not know. Joe does not know and of course I do not know(actually I know even less than nothing  :Big Grin: ). This article is pretty interesting. we can discuss it tomorrow my friends  :Smile:  always look on the bright side of life (and whoever whistled after reading this line...I salute you  :Smile:  )

----------


## joachim

the interesting thing is, they say that under the right conditions the cells self-assemble themselves, and even produce the extracellalur matrix. they also say that some proteins are added like collagen to accelerate the process. 

my opinion:
the right mixture here seems to be the key of self-assembling follicles. this is where the biochip comes into play. it has the ability to add different proteins, oxygen and other required stuff to the follicle environment, exactly with the right timing.
the correct recipe should then lead to more or less good hairs. optimizing this culturing recipe is probably what they are still working on. probably hundrets of different protocols have to be tested and compared. and i assume even with the right recipe not all hair aggregates start producing hair. there's probably some failure rate. the cells which don't develop a hair can be thrown away. 

however, this is a totally different approach compared to what jahoda and Xu are trying.
i don't care about what they are saying. lausters team is far ahead. just my 2 cents.

----------


## nameless

> Didn't Desmond say that whatever the researchers presented was at least 10-12 months old work? So how is it hard to believe that they did his wounding therapy, FGF9 and PGD2 a while back? It makes sense now those research papers he published are done months after and even possibly years after the initial results, trials and findings. That and the take home message from the start was that Follica is a very secretive company so it would be safe to assume that whatever cots has published via research article has already seen some form of trial. And lastly the treatment that was promised I believe was light skin perturbation via peeling the scalp in order to prime it for applying the growth factor FGF9 and or a PGD2 inhibitor. If I'm not mistaken these substances are know to the FDA so who is to say they haven't trialled it already?


 I can't recall the specifics but from the things that Cotseralis said in the news over the past couple years I do not believe that it's possible that he was talking about either FGF9 or PGD2 when he said recently completed phase 2 trials . I don't think that the timeline works for either of those 2 treatments. For example, I do recall Cotseralis saying about 2 years ago that PGD2 would need to go through all human trials for hair loss and it seems to me that 2 years is not enough to get through 2 trials because before you start them you have to make submissions to FDA and the FDA has to approve phase 1 to start. Then when phase 1 is done the researcher has to turn in the results to the FDA and given approval before phase 2 can start. To process the necessary paperwork to initiate phase 1 and complete phase and phase 2 would take about 3 to 3.5 years. Sorry but it doesn't seem possible to me.

----------


## kobefan234

> If you are able to take fin without side effects then why wouldn't you.
> 
> It's either you can take it or you can't. If you can, you don't need to worry and start saving your hair now.
> 
> I wish I didn't have side effects from taking it, but because I do, I am still on this forum. If I didn't, I would take it everyday and no worry another day about hair loss.


 unfortunately, I am not immune to the side effects of fin. I get short term memory loss, impaired cognition, slurred speech sometimes. I feel that it impairs my ability to put concepts to my memory. So essentially its the brain fog which is the worst side effect of fin. Absolutely terrible

----------


## Haircure

What Cotsarelis and the media have stated over the years was that the treatment that was supposed to be released the soonest involved scalp perturbation and then a lotion with FGF9 to induce growth. That is what was supposed to be released,then another study of his was brought to attention regarding PGD2 and it's possible involvement in repressing hair growth. And again like Desmond stated and something that seems very plausible is that whatever studies and tests are done, the reports of those studies/tests are given out in the form of research papers many months later so say 2 years ago he published his article on PGD2 , that would obviously mean he has been working on it much longer before it was published and it's not something he published right after. Also if I'm not mistaken these compounds they may potentially work with have are already known to the FDA through other tests so it might be likely that these will go through trials and be approved much faster. 

Although all this may be the case, if we do crowd fund I'd rather not have it be for Follica since one we are still very much in the dark about what's going on there, and secondly what Cotsarelis stated regarding the $2 million needed for funding for releasing something soon and it being comparable or better than fin+minox is very odd. If it was better they wouldn't need our money. Something tells me they plan on using the funds we may collect for another possible route for a treatment and just release a product they may already have. Finally Cotsarelis has been claiming a release for many years about a treatment coming in 2 years time but has failed to keep his promise, so who is to say he won't do the same with us?

----------


## Haircure

Earlier I posted a comment saying lebron signed and endorsement with hair club for men, turns out the news website I got it from was fake. Sorry about that.

----------


## nameless

> What Cotsarelis and the media have stated over the years was that the treatment that was supposed to be released the soonest involved scalp perturbation and then a lotion with FGF9 to induce growth. That is what was supposed to be released,then another study of his was brought to attention regarding PGD2 and it's possible involvement in repressing hair growth. And again like Desmond stated and something that seems very plausible is that whatever studies and tests are done, the reports of those studies/tests are given out in the form of research papers many months later so say 2 years ago he published his article on PGD2 , that would obviously mean he has been working on it much longer before it was published and it's not something he published right after. Also if I'm not mistaken these compounds they may potentially work with have are already known to the FDA through other tests so it might be likely that these will go through trials and be approved much faster. 
> 
> Although all this may be the case, if we do crowd fund I'd rather not have it be for Follica since one we are still very much in the dark about what's going on there, and secondly what Cotsarelis stated regarding the $2 million needed for funding for releasing something soon and it being comparable or better than fin+minox is very odd. If it was better they wouldn't need our money. Something tells me they plan on using the funds we may collect for another possible route for a treatment and just release a product they may already have. Finally Cotsarelis has been claiming a release for many years about a treatment coming in 2 years time but has failed to keep his promise, so who is to say he won't do the same with us?


 1. We have a lot of speculation going on here which is why I said we should *try* to contact him by email (now that Desmond carries Cots's email address) to get the facts as best we can. Will he respond? I don't know but there's no harm in trying to contact him by email. 

2. You indicate that Cots referred to a treatment "comparable or better" than minox but it's my understanding that he said the treatment is better than minox but not strong enough to turn a bald man into a NW1. There's a lot of space between those 2 end points. If it would reliably give 50% more hair to a stage 3 or stage 4 we would be foolish to reject the idea of funding it out of hand, without even trying to get more information to clear up the facts. 

3. Your stated reason for not wanting to pursue crowdfunding for Follica is that we are still in the dark and this is why I'm suggesting we look over all of the material gathered by Desmond and send Cots and email asking him for some clarification. The most he can do is ignore us and then we would have the option of moving on. But to move on from him now when he has told us that he has a treatment that is better than minox (but not good enough to restore full thickness to a bald man) is a mistake. We should at least try to find out more so that we might no longer be "in the dark."

4. If he tells us the money ($2 million) will go towards a better-than-minoxidil treatment and that the treatment has already cleared phase 2 and only needs a phase 3, but then he spends the money on a different treatment, he would be violating criminal statutes man. It's not going to happen. 

5. I don't know why he has not yet gotten investor funding for his quick-release treatment. It just completed phase 2 so for all I know he will be getting funding for that shortly. But maybe investors see that other treatments are going to also be coming within 8 years so they don't want to invest in his quick-release treatment. I don't know. I don't know why and neither does anyone else that posts here. This is why I'm saying we should attempt to contact Cotseralis by email to try to get more information. 

6. I will state categorically that if Cots really does have a quick-release treatment that has already completed phase 2 and only needs to do a phase 3, and has proven to be *obviously" better and reliable than minox + finasteride then I will donate $1,000 to the cause of crowdfunding the project as long as he will let us have some details (so we can get out of the dark) and he will release it in one country where it would be legal in exchange for royalties paid to him for each use of the treatment in that one country.

----------


## nameless

> What Cotsarelis and the media have stated over the years was that the treatment that was supposed to be released the soonest involved scalp perturbation and then a lotion with FGF9 to induce growth. That is what was supposed to be released,then another study of his was brought to attention regarding PGD2 and it's possible involvement in repressing hair growth. And again like Desmond stated and something that seems very plausible is that whatever studies and tests are done, the reports of those studies/tests are given out in the form of research papers many months later so say 2 years ago he published his article on PGD2 , that would obviously mean he has been working on it much longer before it was published and it's not something he published right after. Also if I'm not mistaken these compounds they may potentially work with have are already known to the FDA through other tests so it might be likely that these will go through trials and be approved much faster. 
> 
> Although all this may be the case, if we do crowd fund I'd rather not have it be for Follica since one we are still very much in the dark about what's going on there, and secondly what Cotsarelis stated regarding the $2 million needed for funding for releasing something soon and it being comparable or better than fin+minox is very odd. If it was better they wouldn't need our money. Something tells me they plan on using the funds we may collect for another possible route for a treatment and just release a product they may already have. Finally Cotsarelis has been claiming a release for many years about a treatment coming in 2 years time but has failed to keep his promise, so who is to say he won't do the same with us?


 It doesn't matter if these compounds are already known to the FDA because the moment they start mixing these compounds with wounding (if wounding is his quick-release treatment) then the entire treatment becomes new to the FDA and it will all have to go through clinical trials like it's totally new to the FDA. I do not believe the time-frame to completion of phase 2 can be reconciled unless the quick release treatment involves wounding. It could be wounding + FGF9 but I don't think he's had a chance to do PGD2 phase 2 yet. He was running around the globe about 2 years ago looking for approval to study PGD2 drugs from the companies that own the rights to them. I don't think he's had time to complete a phase 2 of a PGD2 treatment yet. I think that if anything it's a wounding treatment involving some chemicals, possibly even FGF9.

----------


## nameless

> hey sascha, what a great find!!! i just read the article (my first language is also german) and i'm impressed. the article indeed says that first tests/trials on human should start in 2014. i wonder if they told that desmond too, or didn't they disclose it. i assume this trials can be seen as phase 0 then. phase 1 could start in 3 or 4 years according to desmond's opinion. not sure why he thinks that. maybe he is right because they still have some work to do. on the other side, if everything goes well with their first tests, maybe an official phase 1 could start sooner. phase 1 is the most critical milestone here.


 
I don't think that there is a phase zero. I think there's phase 1, phase 2, and phase 3. I think that if they start this year it will probably be phase 1. I also think it would probably be like 1 year rather than 3 or 4 years. At least I hope so.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Yea but according to you the cure for hair loss is Pilox and it will be on the market in a few months. LOL!


 I never said it was the cure. It is the next best thing. Isotephersis WORKS. It's a fact. Zinc blocks DHT and is good for hair. It's a fact. It's only logical that using zinc with the best delivery system available today (far better than oral delivery) would offer good results.

Look at vrafs latest side by side.. and thats only 5 months! fin takes 12-18 months for the final conclusion. look at the other results too!

I'm not just guessing. The background science is there...

----------


## joachim

http://www.biotechnologie.de/BIO/Nav...id=103250.html

this article here from oct. 2009 is also extremely interesting. this was when team lauster/lindner created the first follicle. but there are more details in the article than i saw previously on the other newssites. it's actually in german. maybe someome with good german/english translation skills can help out.

some important points in the article:

- the bioreactor was developed in cooperation with the max planck institute from 2005 to 2009 to enable automatic culturing of cells in dishes for creating an optimum environment, thus eliminating a lot of errors. 

- they are also working hard on creating artificial skin, both dermis and epidermis. the ultimate goal of them is to combine the lab-grown skin including blood vessels with the lab-grown follicles to enable 60-days continous testing for cosmetics someday. but the follicles alone for curing baldness should be ready first (as it's easier than combining both follicles and skin)

- there are also some words on how they isolate the different cells from the follicle and multiply them without losing their properties (but not really detailed explained). however it tells me they are pretty aware of all culturing problems and tried to keep the cell's hair properties from the beginning. they try to get very close to perfect created hair because otherwise the cosmetics test wouldn't make sense.

- the follicle they created in 2009 was actually a little bit smaller and a little bit thinner than normal hair (therefore called microfollicle), but very similar to normal hair in its other properties. i assume they managed in the meantime how to grow the follicle bigger, this should be no obstacle anymore. it's been more than 4 years since then.
generally it sounds like they know all the tricks how to isolate, multiply and combine the cells to send the right signals to tell the aggregate it should produce hair.
i can only imagine how far they got within all these years.

- it also says they are looking for a partner in the industry to further develop the hairs. as this was in 2009 i assume they found their partner.

----------


## joachim

i forgot to mention: the article also says, patents pending already. but this is probably no surprise. maybe someone of you can check out if the patents can be found online. maybe we can find out more then.

i'm also curious if they would someday let us get some insight in their labs to see their bioreactor life in action. (i mean, it's a university). if desmond keeps a trustful and respectful contact to them, maybe we can get some more insight somewhen.

----------


## sdsurfin

> http://www.biotechnologie.de/BIO/Nav...id=103250.html
> 
> this article here from oct. 2009 is also extremely interesting. this was when team lauster/lindner created the first follicle. but there are more details in the article than i saw previously on the other newssites. it's actually in german. maybe someome with good german/english translation skills can help out.
> 
> some important points in the article:
> 
> - the bioreactor was developed in cooperation with the max planck institute from 2005 to 2009 to enable automatic culturing of cells in dishes for creating an optimum environment, thus eliminating a lot of errors. 
> 
> - they are also working hard on creating artificial skin, both dermis and epidermis. the ultimate goal of them is to combine the lab-grown skin including blood vessels with the lab-grown follicles to enable 60-days continous testing for cosmetics someday. but the follicles alone for curing baldness should be ready first (as it's easier than combining both follicles and skin)
> ...


 
Those are a lot of assumptions.  But I think that fully grown lab follicles will be created by either the germans or the japanese (always the best engineers!) in the coming decades.  According to that 2013 paper, they are still only making "neopapillae". The big question seems to be whether a cluster of DP cells is enough to create a cosmetic hair in balding scalp. I have no idea really, and i don't know if the scientists do either.  

I don't think there's a question at this point that we will be either the last or the second to last generation to have to go bald.  I think that even with fully formed follicles from scratch, they are going to run into a lot of other issues. I still don't see how cycling and angle and formation of sebaceous glands have a solution. I'm sure it exists, but it probably has to do with the complex signaling pathways and growth factors that happen between the different hair and skin cells.  

The future of regenerative medicine looks truly amazing in general, and from what I've seen I think we should ask Lauster's team if they need more funding and are willing to work on crowdfunding.  I suspect follica is not going to respond.  From what I heard from Dr. Garza at Penn, the PDG2 thing is still being worked out, and they are trying to find the right compounds still. That's probably what Cotsarellis was talking about when he said they needed 2 mil for a treatment.  Bimatoprost works on PDG2 and I suspect they have the capacity to find a more specific compound, but also according to Garza, they are underfunded for sure.

There's a race right now to make a follicle, but I do think that the DP multipication aspect is very crucial, and I'm curious to see what desmond posts in that respect.  Just because you can take a bunch of DP cells out and then put them back together in clumps doesnt mean you're gonna have enough of them to repopulate a scalp.  

PS that article in german can be translated by clicking the "english" option at the top of the page  :Smile:

----------


## Haircure

@nameless
Again you are missing the entire point of my comments. The follica treatment relies on skin perturbation as an access for the fgf9 growth factor to be effective. You are confusing wounding with something he published years ago, where I believe that he noticed that the wounding caused some form of hair growth which was exemplified in the examples of hair transplants where he found that hair grew near the recipient sites. I believe it was this that resulted in people realizing that prp treatments could mimic that effect. So in short wounding doesn't seem to be the main factor in follicas approach rather it's thier growth factor.  Finally if a compound is known and had been tested, it may have to go through fewer trials for safety as opposed to new compounds

----------


## fuzzyballs

> I never said it was the cure. It is the next best thing. Isotephersis WORKS. It's a fact. Zinc blocks DHT and is good for hair. It's a fact. It's only logical that using zinc with the best delivery system available today (far better than oral delivery) would offer good results.
> 
> Look at vrafs latest side by side.. and thats only 5 months! fin takes 12-18 months for the final conclusion. look at the other results too!
> 
> I'm not just guessing. The background science is there...


 I thought we all proved Pilox was a scam??? Where are vrafs pics?

----------


## Arashi

> the interesting thing is, they say that under the right conditions the cells self-assemble themselves, and even produce the extracellalur matrix. they also say that some proteins are added like collagen to accelerate the process. 
> 
> my opinion:
> the right mixture here seems to be the key of self-assembling follicles. this is where the biochip comes into play. it has the ability to add different proteins, oxygen and other required stuff to the follicle environment, exactly with the right timing.
> the correct recipe should then lead to more or less good hairs. optimizing this culturing recipe is probably what they are still working on. probably hundrets of different protocols have to be tested and compared. and i assume even with the right recipe not all hair aggregates start producing hair. there's probably some failure rate. the cells which don't develop a hair can be thrown away. 
> 
> however, this is a totally different approach compared to what jahoda and Xu are trying.
> i don't care about what they are saying. lausters team is far ahead. just my 2 cents.


 About those self assembling cells, that's what I told you. It's not just something that happens with Lauster's Team, that's just how it works. When put in the right environment, the cells start to build hair (producing) follicles themselves, that's exactly what Tsuji labs and Jahoda reported too.

About Lauster being ahead, I doubt it. Lauster, Tsuji and Jahoda, I think they're all operating on the cutting edge, all reported engineering hair producing follicles in the past and who knows where they are now ..

----------


## Arashi

> I thought we all proved Pilox was a scam??? Where are vrafs pics?


 Please keep pilox out of this thread.

----------


## beetee

> I suspect follica is not going to respond.  From what I heard from Dr. Garza at Penn, the PDG2 thing is still being worked out, and they are trying to find the right compounds still. That's probably what Cotsarellis was talking about when he said they needed 2 mil for a treatment.  Bimatoprost works on PDG2 and I suspect they have the capacity to find a more specific compound, but also according to Garza, they are underfunded for sure.


 I'm a little confused by some elements of this, perhaps you could shed some light. I have only seen Garza comment on Allergen's Bimatoprost product for hair that they're currently testing in one article, and in it he did not say that the project was underfunded but that they were having a hard time with getting the medicine to be effectively delivered to the follicle. Is there an article where he says they're having a problem with funding? If so, can you please post a citation to it?

----------


## hellouser

Let's ignore Dr. Cotsarelis' 2 million dollar claim for a moment;

Would Follica have to wait for the FDA to give them clearance to start Phase III? If they finished Phase II last year, shouldn't they have started Phase III by now? If they haven't started Phase III but are allowed to move forward, why the hell wouldn't they have already started by now?

I don't care what some of you guys say, any treatment that is superior to finasteride/minoxidil would be a welcome addition and I'd be on it RIGHT NOW. We're all desperate for treatments so I don't see why we would denigrate Follica's method.

----------


## Almostthere

From what I remember Desmond saying they finished phase 2 but are on hold due to money issues.  I am pretty sure they have not started phase 3.  If they get an injection of mony then they can start phase 3 but that'll prob take another 2-3 years of approval right? So 4 years from now if we can get them 2 million by start of next year.

----------


## hellouser

> From what I remember Desmond saying they finished phase 2 but are on hold due to money issues.  I am pretty sure they have not started phase 3.  If they get an injection of mony then they can start phase 3 but that'll prob take another 2-3 years of approval right? So 4 years from now if we can get them 2 million by start of next year.


 Approval shouldn't take 3 times as long as the trial itself, thats ridiculous.... Aderans projected a 1 year turnaround for their phase 3 trial.

I just don't get it, it boggles the ****ing mind;

Follica has ONE phase trial left before commercialization which would effectively allow itself to completely DOMINATE the market until a cure comes along which isnt happening for the next 8 years. This would gives them 8 years of raking in tens or hundreds of millions of dollars and the only thing holding them back is a measly 2 million dollars?

Something is wrong with that. One of the following must be true;
- Dr. Cotsarelis trolled the hell out of Desmond and lied (for corporate reasons)
- Follica is incredibly incompetent with securing funds
- like some of you had said their procedure doesnt work as well as we'd think and no one is willing to invest....

But if no one is willing to invest, why the hell did they claim last year they're able to create NEW follicles from wounding? Wouldn't multiple passes of Follica's treatment ultimately get you cured? That would be enough to have investers look at their progress and say 'oh wow, you've effectively created a treatment that is far superior to anything out on the market today which garners billions of dollars for treatments that DONT work'. Can any of you imagine what the revenue would be for baldness if we had treatments that DID work? The figures would skyrocket... so why the hell would anyone pass up on the opportunity to put only 2 million dollars to have the next 8+ years be completely loaded with profits and basically a monopoly on the market? Even if a cure DID come out, wounding would still be a viable option to those that couldn't afford or didnt need a full out treatment of individual follicles being lab grown and implanted.

Dr. Cotsarelis is definitely NOT telling us the whole story, that is guaranteed. If anyone believes he'd give anything but a corporate answer, you're dead wrong. Follica owns him and the wounding method, he's NOT going to reveal details.

None of this makes any sense to me at all. SOMEONE is pulling our leg here.

----------


## Dazza

> *Something is wrong with that.* One of the following must be true;
> - Dr. Cotsarelis trolled the hell out of Desmond and lied (for corporate reasons)
> - Follica is incredibly incompetent with securing funds
> - like some of you had said their procedure doesnt work as well as we'd think and no one is willing to invest....
> 
> But if no one is willing to invest, why the hell did they claim last year they're able to create NEW follicles from wounding? 
> 
> Dr. Cotsarelis is definitely NOT telling us the whole story, that is guaranteed. If anyone believes he'd give anything but a corporate answer, you're dead wrong. Follica owns him and the wounding method, he's NOT going to reveal details.
> 
> None of this makes any sense to me at all. SOMEONE is pulling our leg here.


 Exactly. None of this makes any sense.

Why wouldn't investors want a product which is apparently much better than current treatments? Something about that just doesn't add up. 

Its either their product doesn't work and they've been actively lying to the press to perhaps get investors interested to fund there work.
*Or* 
Investors have seen their work and simply don't see anything there. 

He's lying. It's that simple.

Maybe we should try and get answers from R. Rox Anderson. This is where we need that voice. Something Spencer could help with. Chances of that happening? slim.

----------


## joachim

> Approval shouldn't take 3 times as long as the trial itself, thats ridiculous.... Aderans projected a 1 year turnaround for their phase 3 trial.
> 
> I just don't get it, it boggles the ****ing mind;
> 
> Follica has ONE phase trial left before commercialization which would effectively allow itself to completely DOMINATE the market until a cure comes along which isnt happening for the next 8 years. This would gives them 8 years of raking in tens or hundreds of millions of dollars and the only thing holding them back is a measly 2 million dollars?
> 
> Something is wrong with that. One of the following must be true;
> - Dr. Cotsarelis trolled the hell out of Desmond and lied (for corporate reasons)
> - Follica is incredibly incompetent with securing funds
> ...


 agreed. but how to proceed now? does anyone have the direct mail address of cots? i'm not sure if desmond got the business card from cots to contact him.

----------


## walrus

> Follica owns him and the wounding method


 He is an academic, and Follica are just a spin off he is involved in. His main concern is more likely to be publishing papers in peer reviewed journals.

----------


## nameless

> Exactly. None of this makes any sense.
> 
> Why wouldn't investors want a product which is apparently much better than current treatments? Something about that just doesn't add up. 
> 
> Its either their product doesn't work and they've been actively lying to the press to perhaps get investors interested to fund there work.
> *Or* 
> Investors have seen their work and simply don't see anything there. 
> 
> He's lying. It's that simple.
> ...


 
No it's not that simple. We don't know for sure what's going on. None of us do. It's possible that investors see these cell therapies in the lab getting better and better so they don't want to invest in a treatment that is not as good as the cell treatments promise to be. Or maybe Cotseralis himself and Follic are pushing for the bigger treatment that will cure everyone and will cost $20 million to fund because they are thinking long term competition with cell therapies. The point is that you don't know their reasons/strategies so to assume the most negative - that he's lying - is really nothing but a guess and you could be very wrong. 

I think we should try to find a way to get more information from Follica/Cotseralis. His $2 million treatment might be the only bridge that can help us for the next 8 years so before we disengage from it we better do what we can to shed some light on the situation before we write it off. Even if it can't be compounded it might still give much better results than what we have today.

And I do not think it would take 3 or 4 years to get it to market if it only needs a phase 3. Completing a phase 3 and getting the product to market would be about 1 1/2 to 2 years.

----------


## hellouser

> He is an academic, and Follica are just a spin off he is involved in. His main concern is more likely to be publishing papers in peer reviewed journals.


 Thats irrelevant, Follica is a business venture with Puretech Ventures backing. Cotsarelis can publish papers all he wants, but Puretech will have agreements with him and Follica of what he can or cannot say about Follica as well as for his own reasons too, its not like he's not going to get a massive payoff when Follica goes commercial. This dude is going to get paid handsomely. Its in his best interest to see Follica go commercial after SEVEN+ years of research and clinical trials. 

It's insane to think 'Follica is dead, theyre not going anywhere, Cotsarelis just spent nearly a decade with snake oils in clinical trials'.

They've definitely got SOMETHING....

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> @sdsurfin
> 
> Good points about the condition of the entire scalp. My thoughts have been along the same lines. I have miniaturization everywhere, and my entire scalp has become hard and inflamed.
> 
> I agree that it is a problem of inflammation and immune response.
> 
> Hopefully these brilliant researchers are well on their way to tackling the scalp environment issue as well.
> 
> Being a diffuse thinner, isn't fun!


 I have used hydrocortisone 1% over the counter and surprisingly for me, it kept the telogen phase under control.  In other words, more of my hair stayed in its anagen phase.  Men with MPB have a higher percentage of hair in the telogen phase in their balding areas than men without MPB.  When I had poison ivy, I used the prescription topical, Cordran SP (another corticosteroid) and my hair grew thicker on top.  It has a listed side effect of excessive hair growth.  How awful.   :Smile: 

One line of thinking related to MPB goes like this:

Prostaglandin D2 (PGD2) saturates genetically predetermined miniaturizing hair follicles.  PGD2 apparently is a hair growth inhibitor.  I personally believe that PGD2 blocks blood platelet growth factors. In other words the hair starves.  The body interprets miniaturization as damage and the body's immune system  goes to work finishing off your follicles by attacking them (inflammation).  Corticosteroid use runs the risk of thinning your skin.  Dermatologists recommend using it sparingly

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## The Alchemist

> Thats irrelevant, Follica is a business venture with Puretech Ventures backing. Cotsarelis can publish papers all he wants, but Puretech will have agreements with him and Follica of what he can or cannot say about Follica as well as for his own reasons too, its not like he's not going to get a massive payoff when Follica goes commercial. This dude is going to get paid handsomely. Its in his best interest to see Follica go commercial after SEVEN+ years of research and clinical trials. 
> 
> It's insane to think 'Follica is dead, theyre not going anywhere, Cotsarelis just spent nearly a decade with snake oils in clinical trials'.
> 
> They've definitely got SOMETHING....


 Another thing to consider is that he's quoted as saying "Follica JUST finished phase II".  If that is true, then perhaps they're still in the process of attracting new investors in order to push through on phase III.  It all depends on what he means by "just".  Could mean within last few months or could be within last few years.  I found that statement to be shocking considering that they had started phase II so long ago.  I had figured they would've completed that trial at least a year or two back.  Maybe they did a IIb or something.   

Regardless, we know they're now done with Phase II.  If there is no activity (financial) within the next 6-12 months, then i think it's safe to conclude that the reults were poor.  They may have done a bit better than prop and minox, but, that is not a high bar to clear. and if they can't control direction or the hairs are not aesthetically pleasing, then it doesn't matter anyway.  Nobody wants to look like an old tennis ball.  But, if we see some new funding or some other type of clinical activity, then that changes everything and we know we were fed some misdirection from Cots.

Didn't one of the recent tweets from (i forget who Bernat Olle or Zohar) say that they're progressing?  I think it was a response to an inquiry made through twitter.

Also, why would they bring in a new CEO if they indeed have no money?  How many CEO's out there want to sign on for no money and a product that has no promise? 

Things don't add up.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

Studies indicate that PGD2 causes apoptosis under certain circumstances in test animals.  It could very well be that in MPB, follicles, predetermined to miniaturize attract PGD2 which triggers apoptosis.  This could explain the inflammatory reaction and the reason that platelet rich plasma (PRP) increases the hair shaft diameter of miniaturizing hair.  Interesting that Emory has been using PRP to treat stubborn sports injuries for years because a patient's own platelet growth factors do a decent job of enhancing/improving healing. 

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## Dazza

> No it's not that simple. We don't know for sure what's going on. None of us do. It's possible that investors see these cell therapies in the lab getting better and better so they don't want to invest in a treatment that is not as good as the cell treatments promise to be. Or maybe Cotseralis himself and Follic are pushing for the bigger treatment that will cure everyone and will cost $20 million to fund because they are thinking long term competition with cell therapies. The point is that you don't know their reasons/strategies so to assume the most negative - that he's lying - is really nothing but a guess and you could be very wrong.


 You seem to be under the impression 2million/20million is a lot of money. 2/20million is pocket change for investors.

If cots had something that's as he said "better than current meds" investors would jump at this. Why fully cure the problem when they can milk every last penny out of the problem. It's there investment and business after all.

I can't imagine cots having any trouble with funding at all. They've had private investments through out all their past/current phases yet now when they can apparently grow new follicles are having money issues? This doesn't not sound right at all.

Something else is the issue. 2million for a new product that would take the market by storm is nothing. In fact it's laughable.

20million for his "cure" is also nothing. 

One single celebrity could out right invest 20million, cure everyone and become a multi billionaire..

----------


## mnhair

Definitely a mix of good and bad news. At least within the coming years there might be some amazing things out there. The problem is that we need something to get us till then. Since follica is basically out, looks like pilofocus will be more important since that's basically a year or so away.

----------


## nameless

> You seem to be under the impression 2million/20million is a lot of money. 2/20million is pocket change for investors.
> 
> If cots had something that's as he said "better than current meds" investors would jump at this. Why fully cure the problem when they can milk every last penny out of the problem. It's there investment and business after all.
> 
> I can't imagine cots having any trouble with funding at all. They've had private investments through out all their past/current phases yet now when they can apparently grow new follicles are having money issues? This doesn't not sound right at all.
> 
> Something else is the issue. 2million for a new product that would take the market by storm is nothing. In fact it's laughable.
> 
> 20million for his "cure" is also nothing. 
> ...


 
None of what you have said above tells us with certainty what is going on with Follica. 

The only things we know for sure is that he claims he has a treatment that is better than what is available already and that treatment has completed phase 2 so it only needs a phase 3 to complete. We also know that phase 3 for some hair clinical trials were just one year. We know that he claims this treatment is better than minoxidil and propecia so we know it's better than what we currently have. We also know that we are going to have to wait about 8 years for the cell treatments. I think that if you think about all of this it's apparent that we should be trying to find out more about this $2 million treatment because it could serve as a bridge to get us through the next 8 years while we wait for the cell treatments.

----------


## whatsgoingon

I assume someone is going to compile this thread into an easy to read "what you need to know" post or something. 40+ pages lol so much too read

----------


## agardner

Hello, I'm Aaron Gardner one of the researchers who was presenting at the WCHR 2014. I found this thread as I was googling one of the other authors to try and find their email address, kind of strange to see me mentioned on the internet  :Big Grin: .

Linked are the two posters/talks that I presented at the conference for your interest, I guess the inductivity one is of most interest:

http://adobe.ly/1sO7MIV

I would be happy to try and answer any questions you have on my work or on any of the other work I saw presented.

----------


## Thinning87

> Hello, I'm Aaron Gardner one of the researchers who was presenting at the WCHR 2014. I found this thread as I was googling one of the other authors to try and find their email address, kind of strange to see me mentioned on the internet .
> 
> Linked are the two posters/talks that I presented at the conference for your interest, I guess the inductivity one is of most interest:
> 
> http://adobe.ly/1sO7MIV
> 
> I would be happy to try and answer any questions you have on my work or on any of the other work I saw presented.


 Thank you for sharing and participating to our forum! 

I'm sure the more knowledgeable posters in this forum will have more specific questions. There is only one thing the rest of us really wants to find out....

----------


## TravisB

> Approval shouldn't take 3 times as long as the trial itself, thats ridiculous.... Aderans projected a 1 year turnaround for their phase 3 trial.
> 
> I just don't get it, it boggles the ****ing mind;
> 
> Follica has ONE phase trial left before commercialization which would effectively allow itself to completely DOMINATE the market until a cure comes along which isnt happening for the next 8 years. This would gives them 8 years of raking in tens or hundreds of millions of dollars and the only thing holding them back is a measly 2 million dollars?
> 
> Something is wrong with that. One of the following must be true;
> - Dr. Cotsarelis trolled the hell out of Desmond and lied (for corporate reasons)
> - Follica is incredibly incompetent with securing funds
> ...


 IMO Cotsarelis IS trolling

This "$2 million to bring treatment better than propecia + minox, and $20 million to bring a full blown cure" statement is a joke. If this was the case, then we would already have it and there would be no bald men in sight. That kind of money is NOTHING in a medical/corporate world, especially if they could make BILLIONS of dollars from such investment.

Cotsarelis just didn't want to reveal the details to a random guy, that's all. Makes sense.

----------


## GuyFromUK

> Hello, I'm Aaron Gardner one of the researchers who was presenting at the WCHR 2014. I found this thread as I was googling one of the other authors to try and find their email address, kind of strange to see me mentioned on the internet .
> 
> Linked are the two posters/talks that I presented at the conference for your interest, I guess the inductivity one is of most interest:
> 
> http://adobe.ly/1sO7MIV
> 
> I would be happy to try and answer any questions you have on my work or on any of the other work I saw presented.


 

Hi Aaron and welcome to the Forum.

I am sure some of the more scientifically minded forum members will be able to ask you some science based questions on the work you are doing. I am sure I speak for millions of us though when I ask you 1 question: "When do you think  the cure for baldness will be here?"

----------


## jay woo

Cotsarelis is not trolling, he was asked a question and answered it. He would expect that people at the conference would have a good idea on the complexity and costs of taking a treatment from the lab to the market. I think you will find that the 2 million is for a product that should work. 2 million would not include the clinical trials or marketing or refinement that would be required. The great costs are not the initial 2 million talked about. It is the ongoing costs of clinical trials and the fact the money will be tied up for years until it hopefully passes the FDA. The people on this site are minority, the majority will not leave their country for treatment. This means for a return on investment it must pass FDA and the equivalent in many different countries. This takes years and costs vast amounts of money. Then once pasted it requires marketing etc. 

if The treatment has no over possible alternative uses it means hair loss is the only way to recover costs. It is not like some drugs that could possible be used to teat alternatives conditions. I can see why it would be hard to attract investors. The potential market is also unknown, hair loss is not a life and death condition. People who are balding may choose not to seek treatment which limits the potential market. Men are also far from the large part of the cosmetic market. What are the treatment costs going to be is a very important question.

----------


## Thinning87

> Cotsarelis is not trolling, he was asked a question and answered it. He would expect that people at the conference would have a good idea on the complexity and costs of taking a treatment from the lab to the market. I think you will find that the 2 million is for a product that should work. 2 million would not include the clinical trials or marketing or refinement that would be required. The great costs are not the initial 2 million talked about. It is the ongoing costs of clinical trials and the fact the money will be tied up for years until it hopefully passes the FDA. The people on this site are minority, the majority will not leave their country for treatment. This means for a return on investment it must pass FDA and the equivalent in many different countries. This takes years and costs vast amounts of money. Then once pasted it requires marketing etc. 
> 
> if The treatment has no over possible alternative uses it means hair loss is the only way to recover costs. It is not like some drugs that could possible be used to teat alternatives conditions. I can see why it would be hard to attract investors. The potential market is also unknown, hair loss is not a life and death condition. People who are balding may choose not to seek treatment which limits the potential market. Men are also far from the large part of the cosmetic market. What are the treatment costs going to be is a very important question.


 What a bunch of bull shit. There are very few bald people on this planet who are happier with no hair. There is so much money going into hair transplants and there would be much more for a definitive cure that does not have a transplant's drawbacks. This is an easy measure to use as benchmark to have an idea of the size of the market. Furthermore, we all know only 8% of bald people do use propecia and minox, and that is despite the fact that they work like shit!

Yes there are risks involved with clinical trials. No that is not nearly enough to stop an investment in a potential cure given the payoff.

----------


## Arashi

> Hello, I'm Aaron Gardner one of the researchers who was presenting at the WCHR 2014. I found this thread as I was googling one of the other authors to try and find their email address, kind of strange to see me mentioned on the internet .
> 
> Linked are the two posters/talks that I presented at the conference for your interest, I guess the inductivity one is of most interest:
> 
> http://adobe.ly/1sO7MIV
> 
> I would be happy to try and answer any questions you have on my work or on any of the other work I saw presented.


 Hi Aaron !! Wow what an honor to have a member of the most sophisticated hair regeneration research team on earth on this board !!

We're waiting for Desmond to bring the presentations online, I think he said he will get to that next sunday. So we havent seen your presentation yet. However I think the biggest question we currently have is: what exactly is still standing between us and a cure ? I mean when Jahoda presented his breakthrough last year, it seemed that they were under the impression that the hairs you guys created weren't cosmetically viable since a good deal of gene expression was lost during the DP cell expansion. Now according to Desmond that problem has been solved and those DP cells can now be cultured while retaining all gene expression. So what is the current problem that you guys are facing ? 

Thanks again for joining this forum !!!

----------


## Arashi

Actually, I'm a bit confused Aaron  :Smile:  From your sheets i get it that you guys restored HF inductivity by dermal/epidermal interactions so you're trying to make the DP cells think they're still in the skin, right ? However that didnt work as well as you had hoped since the outcome quality was very variable, right ? Can you maybe elaborate a bit on this ?

----------


## agardner

I'm not sure if sophisticated is the word, especially not in relation to myself  :Big Grin:  But I'm happy to come and discuss my work (and my understanding of others work) anywhere, it's part of why I enjoy doing science  :Smile: .

To answer your questions it might be best first to lay out our current aims/understanding:

1) Rat whisker dermal papilla (DP) can be isolated, cultured and re-implanted into the skin to induce new follicles.

2) Fresh, whole human DP can be re-implanted to induce a follicle.

3) 2D cultured human DP lose this ability to induce follicle.

4) Dr Higgins in her paper demonstrated this nicely by by performing a micro-array, (a technique which compares, in bulk, gene expression between two or more samples). She showed that there was significant variation in several thousand genes between _in vivo_ DP and 2D cultured DP (*Fig 2A* of her paper). http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/10/16/1309970110

5) She also demonstrated that 3D culture of human DP restored ~40&#37; of the _in vivo_ DP genetic character that was lost in 2D culture (*Fig. 4C*)

6) These 3D spheres were able to induce the formation of follicle structures from 5 of 7 donors with an efficiency ranging from 10-60% (i.e 10 spheres - 1 follicle structure = 10% efficiency).

So we want to take this further and there are several areas that we want to look at:
7) Improve efficiency, use more accessible cells, use only adult human tissues and develop a "quick" non-animal model assay.

8) Efficiency - Further restore _in vivo_ DP character to 3D DP cultures, we are attempting to do this by coating the DP spheres with epithelial cells, to mimic the interactions that are occurring _in vivo_ (Dr Higgins explained this really well in her talk). These dermal-epidermal interactions are key in follicle development and subsequent hair cycling. See also: http://www.hairtx.com/files/2014/03/peg.gif this is the interaction that we're attempting to mimic in our cultures.

9) Accessible cells - Attempt to restore DP character to non DP cultures. We are looking at the dermal sheath (DS) as we think they are more similar in character to the DP than dermal fibroblasts (DF). But this is a stepping stone to using DF as the Rendl group are attempting. See "P202 (SY10)	REPROGRAMMING REGULAR SKIN FIBROBLASTS INTO HAIR INDUCING DERMAL PAPILLA CELLS Carlos CLAVEL" from WCHR2014. We are doing this by adding genes that Dr Higgins identified in her paper, into DS and seeing if we can make them DP like.

10) Adult tissues - The majority of studies which demonstrate inductivity either use mouse or neonatal human epithelial cells/tissue. This obviously wont apply in patient so we need to demonstrate inductivity in a less "competent" tissue.

11) Quick assay - we need to screen for a lot of things, we need a quick, easy and cheap assay to achieve this. None of the current assays tick these boxes.

So what do I show?:
12) Efficiency - Epithelial coating restores *markers* of inductivity that are not seen in dermal only spheres, the populations are interacting, this is great and we hope to repeat Dr Higgins microarray experiment and see if we further restore character. When this works, it works really well. *BUT* the efficiency of coating is poor, a lot of the time the epithelial cells don't stick to the dermal model, so no improvement in inductivity, we're not sure why this is but we are trying other methods of coating, isolation epithelial cells and epithelial cell populations. 

13) Accessible cells - A better option than above, but currently none of the factors we have screened have restored DP character. We have lots more factors and will move onto multiple factor screens as well.

14) Adult tissues - All our work is progressing using adult tissues, but we have yet to try our new cultures in a mouse model, we will do so shortly when we have our ideal double-sphere and any promising DS-DP .

15) Quick model - This has worked out really nicely, we have a new model we can use in the lab to see if our spheres induce the epithelium to grow down into the dermis of our gels, which is reminiscent of initial follicle formation.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it shows our thinking nicely. Other groups have differing ideas and it was great to see them at the WCHR and to see what it is that the other groups are up to. We can then apply the nice bits of their thinking to our models (and hopefully they might use some of our ideas  :Big Grin: ).

To answer the other key question of "when". To be honest I don't know, every year we make progress as do all the other groups. I don't really believe in this "5 years" time thing, as I honestly think one group will crack it, and it will appear very rapidly after that. Look out for papers using adult only human tissues, non follicle derived dermal cells and with high reproducibility those are the ones that are going to have the widest applications.

----------


## agardner

> Actually, I'm a bit confused Aaron  From your sheets i get it that you guys restored HF inductivity by dermal/epidermal interactions so you're trying to make the DP cells think they're still in the skin, right ? However that didnt work as well as you had hoped since the outcome quality was very variable, right ? Can you maybe elaborate a bit on this ?


 Yes, when we transplant the DP spheres into the skin they signal to the epidermis, the epidermis forms a placode and signals back down to the sphere.

The epidermis then grows down into the dermis and encapsulates the sphere giving rise to the follicle structure. At this point the interactions between the DP and hair follicle epithelium gives rise to the hair shaft.

This is a really important point, the dermal sphere is not a dermal papilla until it has been encapsulated by a competent epithelium.

When we manage to encapsulate our DP sphere with epithelial cells then we see markers of infuctivity that are normally only seen in the papilla _in vivo_ (they are not seen in uncoated DP spheres). So the technique works really well. But, a lot of the time the epithelium doesn't stick to the DP sphere, if it doesn't stick we don't see these markers being turned on. So we need to figure this out, then assay these double spheres in a follicle forming assay.

Hope that helps  :Smile:

----------


## artika

Hey Aaron, 

First of all thanks for joining our forum, you are of great help  :Smile: !

Secondly, will the treatment/cure you are working on (or any other teams) benefit those who suffer from Diffuse Unpatterned Alopecia? So will it restore a full head of hair to even those who have no terminal hairs?

----------


## Armandein

> Hello, I'm Aaron Gardner one of the researchers who was presenting at the WCHR 2014. I found this thread as I was googling one of the other authors to try and find their email address, kind of strange to see me mentioned on the internet .
> 
> Linked are the two posters/talks that I presented at the conference for your interest, I guess the inductivity one is of most interest:
> 
> http://adobe.ly/1sO7MIV
> 
> I would be happy to try and answer any questions you have on my work or on any of the other work I saw presented.


 https://www.dur.ac.uk/biosciences/ab...taff/?id=10057
You are a very valid person in the forum, thank you for your insert

----------


## hellouser

> To answer the other key question of "when". To be honest I don't know, every year we make progress as do all the other groups. I don't really believe in this "5 years" time thing, as I honestly think one group will crack it, and it will appear very rapidly after that.


 Would this not be bound to the same strenuous FDA clinical trials that last another 8+ years? As you know, many of us have been desperate for years and decades to move on with our lives, so we're looking at the fastest possible treatment. Is there some other country whose health ministry is less restricting on use of stem cell therapy in which we could see a treatment that actually holds up to the typical 'within 5 years' claim?

Thanks and welcome to the forum!!  :Smile:

----------


## Arashi

Wow, thanks for your elaborate answer Aaron !! Very well laid out, thanks, that clears up my questions and I understand what you guys are doing now. Will come back later though with some other questions, hope you don't mind  :Wink: 

Thanks again for coming to this forum and explaining all this to us, you're our biggest hope for the future, good luck with your experiments !!

----------


## nameless

> IMO Cotsarelis IS trolling
> 
> This "$2 million to bring treatment better than propecia + minox, and $20 million to bring a full blown cure" statement is a joke. If this was the case, then we would already have it and there would be no bald men in sight. That kind of money is NOTHING in a medical/corporate world, especially if they could make BILLIONS of dollars from such investment.
> 
> Cotsarelis just didn't want to reveal the details to a random guy, that's all. Makes sense.


 
In my opinion you do not know what the truth is regarding Cotseralis.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Yes, when we transplant the DP spheres into the skin they signal to the epidermis, the epidermis forms a placode and signals back down to the sphere.


 How is hair growth direction controlled?

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## nameless

> Yes, when we transplant the DP spheres into the skin they signal to the epidermis, the epidermis forms a placode and signals back down to the sphere.
> 
> The epidermis then grows down into the dermis and encapsulates the sphere giving rise to the follicle structure. At this point the interactions between the DP and hair follicle epithelium gives rise to the hair shaft.
> 
> This is a really important point, the dermal sphere is not a dermal papilla until it has been encapsulated by a competent epithelium.
> 
> When we manage to encapsulate our DP sphere with epithelial cells then we see markers of infuctivity that are normally only seen in the papilla _in vivo_ (they are not seen in uncoated DP spheres). So the technique works really well. But, a lot of the time the epithelium doesn't stick to the DP sphere, if it doesn't stick we don't see these markers being turned on. So we need to figure this out, then assay these double spheres in a follicle forming assay.
> 
> Hope that helps


 
Aaron first let me say thank you for coming here and talking to us. 

Secondly, are you saying that when you do manage to encapsulate DP spheres with epithelial cells you get total (100%) preservation of hair inductivity despite mass pass culture? 

Thirdly, I think you're saying is that the problem is getting the epithelial cells to stick to the DP cells. I gather that you're saying that sometimes the epithelial cells do stick to the DP cells but other times they don't. Since sometimes the epithelial cells do stick to the DP cells I'm wondering why you can't simply isolate the method that results in the epithelial cells sticking to the DP cells and only use that method? In other words, since you are able to make the epithelial cells stick to DP cells sometimes then just use the method that results in the epithelial cells sticking to the DP cells and the problem is solved, right?

4th, when you do get the epithelial cells to stick to the DP cells what do you differently from when epithelial cells don't stick to the DP cells?

Lastly, what are you going to try to do to get the epithelial cells to stick to the DP cells? Do you have any ideas?

----------


## Arashi

> How is hair growth direction controlled?


 Good question indeed. I remember how Tsuji lab inserted a nylon thread onto the engineered follicles to guide the hairs to grow outward. Although this worked I'm not sure if this would be a feasible solution for the clinic. Are you guys working on something similar ?

----------


## GuyFromUK

> Would this not be bound to the same strenuous FDA clinical trials that last another 8+ years? As you know, many of us have been desperate for years and decades to move on with our lives, so we're looking at the fastest possible treatment. Is there some other country whose health ministry is less restricting on use of stem cell therapy in which we could see a treatment that actually holds up to the typical 'within 5 years' claim?
> 
> Thanks and welcome to the forum!!


 
His entire point is when it comes progress will come quickly but as yet the "cure" hasn't been found yet and so it is impossible to say "when".  There is no point fixating all the time on how lengthy you perceive the FDA trials to be.

----------


## Artha

It took over 2 years before the FDA approve AZT (a HIV-AIDS drugs). And that was an emergency, so imagine the time for hair loss! Maybe 4-5 years after that patent was approve, its take longer for no emergency drugs.

----------


## hellouser

> His entire point is when it comes progress will come quickly but as yet the "cure" hasn't been found yet and so it is impossible to say "when".  There is no point fixating all the time on how lengthy you perceive the FDA trials to be.


 I didn't ask for 'when' it will be released. I want to know if the success of this can somehow see the day that it won't be stalled by stone age regulations.

----------


## hgs1989

guys seriously cloning and these stuff are really far to be discussed as a potential cure. the technology is still in the lab. commercialization is going to take forever. maybe 5 years is what it will take to solve it in the lab.10 years is a very optimistic timeline for a commercial product. it is like Cotsarelis saying 5 years we will have something back in 2008. they might crack it in the lab and get it all done before but a viable commercial product is very far.I don't have high hopes for this.

----------


## hellouser

> guys seriously cloning and these stuff are really far to be discussed as a potential cure. the technology is still in the lab. commercialization is going to take forever. maybe 5 years is what it will take to solve it in the lab.10 years is a very optimistic timeline for a commercial product. it is like Cotsarelis saying 5 years we will have something back in 2008. they might crack it in the lab and get it all done before but a viable commercial product is very far.I don't have high hopes for this.


 No, Cotsarelis specifically said it'd be a 'few years' before they've have something thats available as a new treatment. He says this in the following video at the 2:12 mark;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaLaMBHIdBs

But that's not the point because all of us seem to be fixated on the notion that treatments can only be done in USA. There are 193 other independent countries outside of USA. I'm sure there are some that would allow research teams as well as biotechs move at a faster pace. Any trials done in USA are going to be financial suicide.

----------


## bigentries

> His entire point is when it comes progress will come quickly but as yet the "cure" hasn't been found yet and so it is impossible to say "when".  There is no point fixating all the time on how lengthy you perceive the FDA trials to be.


 Yeah, he is right in the sense that, no timeline is good, someone is going to crack it one day, and money talks, things are going to move fast after that

Hellouser just has a vendetta against the FDA for some reason, when no single hair loss treatment in the last 30 years has gotten to Phase III, the Phase he claims is slowing things.

----------


## walrus

> when no single hair loss treatment in the last 30 years has gotten to Phase III, the Phase he claims is slowing things.


 And without the FDA, early adopters (such as people here) would be the first to complain about side effects.

----------


## nameless

> Yeah, he is right in the sense that, no timeline is good, someone is going to crack it one day, and money talks, things are going to move fast after that
> 
> Hellouser just has a vendetta against the FDA for some reason, when no single hair loss treatment in the last 30 years has gotten to Phase III, the Phase he claims is slowing things.


 
The FDA is taking too long. 

Lots of people are complaining about the FDA's slow pace, not just Hellouser.

There's actually a charity that you can donate to who's sole function is to lobby the congress, senate, and President to do something about the long delays fostered by the FDA.

----------


## hellouser

> And without the FDA, early adopters (such as people here) would be the first to complain about side effects.


  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

What is your reason then to support an arbitrary number of years to prove safety? What does 15 years of trials tell you that 5 years doesn't?

----------


## bigentries

> And without the FDA, early adopters (such as people here) would be the first to complain about side effects.


 Obviously.

I'm not American, I remember reading as a child back then in my home country how an American companies did "clinical trials" that ended up horribly bad there, and the affected demanded "American regulations" to be applied too.

I don't know how "unregulated" people want trials to be, but I wonder if they weight the possible consequences. This isn't a lethal disease, a cure can take as long as they need if they will deliver it safely.

----------


## hgs1989

> But that's not the point because all of us seem to be fixated on the notion that treatments can only be done in USA. There are 193 other independent countries outside of USA. I'm sure there are some that would allow research teams as well as biotechs move at a faster pace. Any trials done in USA are going to be financial suicide.


 it would be great if they offer it in a less regulated country. here is downside:

1. they haven't even finished their work in the lab. think of any scientific breakthrough. look how far it took to move from the lab to the public. 

2. their will to do it.you think about it because you want it, but they most likely don't share it with you.  

3. if they did it you would not trust them any way. think Nigam. think fat stem cells. the science behind is strong. only one clinic does it and I didn't find any thread on Baldturth.also, I have seen many are willing to pay for chemicals fro untrusted online providers just because those chemicals are in FDA trials, yet you hesitate in buying any available commercial product that didn't go through it even if the ingredients are scientifically proven to work to some extent.

4. it would be too costly to do it in  another country. there is a treatment in south korea similar to histogen(a ****tail of growth factors) and is available NOW. there is a paper talking about it I posted a link to it in a thread called AAPE. the results looks amazing . downside is that it requires multiple sessions at close intervals,I guess 2 weeks or so. cloning might be a one time treatment but still points 1,2,3 applies and it will be some how more costly than in a country you live in.  not to mention its initial costs will be high. 

5. having FDA approval will get them legal access in many countries that follows the FDA. so why stay in one country with limited access to the wealthy while you can reach the masses.

6.finally, the FDA is a reality and all the above applies to any hair loss treatment. 

any how it is not feasible to discuss cloning even if you are in your 20's . Desmond seams to think it is coming in 2020. lets hear what he heard from the interviews. but I don't think it is happening that soon.

----------


## hgs1989

> Obviously.
> 
> I'm not American, I remember reading as a child back then in my home country how an American companies did "clinical trials" that ended up horribly bad there, and the affected demanded "American regulations" to be applied too.
> 
> I don't know how "unregulated" people want trials to be, but I wonder if they weight the possible consequences. This isn't a lethal disease, a cure can take as long as they need if they will deliver it safely.


 exactly. imagine if curis released their product with the SHH stuff. people will have cancers by now.

----------


## hellouser

> Obviously.
> 
> I'm not American, I remember reading as a child back then in my home country how an American companies did "clinical trials" that ended up horribly bad there, and the affected demanded "American regulations" to be applied too.
> 
> I don't know how "unregulated" people want trials to be, but I wonder if they weight the possible consequences. This isn't a lethal disease, a cure can take as long as they need if they will deliver it safely.


 Most of us aren't crazy to just go for a treatment without any trials. I've mentioned it a number of times that I'd like to see at the very least a safety trial done (though I know you have a selective memory given past accusations against me that fell flat when you had no evidence to support your arguments).

However, the problem with the FDA (and you) is that you believe that finding out safety can only be verified by making up a random number for the years required to run through trials and stall use of it through delays, delays, delays.

But thats the problem... you can't tell safety unless people actually USE IT. And then use it in greater numbers beyond the clinical trials.

----------


## bigentries

> Most of us aren't crazy to just go for a treatment without any trials. I've mentioned it a number of times that I'd like to see at the very least a safety trial done (though I know you have a selective memory given past accusations against me that fell flat when you had no evidence to support your arguments).
> 
> However, the problem with the FDA (and you) is that you believe that finding out safety can only be verified by making up a random number for the years required to run through trials and stall use of it through delays, delays, delays.
> 
> But thats the problem... you can't tell safety unless people actually USE IT.


 Chill out dude, I wonder if you really use that tone in the real world

What are your options? Which country? Which agency?

You keep talking trash about the FDA and a magical country and agency out there that is better, but where are them? what are the options? have you talked about them to people who are knowledgable about clinical trials? Why do they still keep on doing the trials with the FDA?

This isn't about a "random number of years", where are you getting that info? As far as I know the FDA doesn't place a hard number concerning the length of a trial

Anyway dude, you still can contact me if you want, if you need to vent something

----------


## hellouser

> Chill out dude, I wonder if you really use that tone in the real world


 You've been told in public and private numerous times.




> What are your options? Which country? Which agency?


 I don't have the answers, that's why I'm discussing it right now.




> You keep talking trash about the FDA and a magical country and agency out there that is better, but where are them? what are the options? have you talked about them to people who are knowledgable about clinical trials? Why do they still keep on doing the trials with the FDA?


 Likely because many, or damn near all the Biotechs are American anyway.




> This isn't about a "random number of years", where are you getting that info? As far as I know the FDA doesn't place a hard number concerning the length of a trial


 Then I'll ask again; what does 15 years of trials tell you that 5 years doesn't?




> Anyway dude, you still can contact me if you want, if you need to vent something


 See above.

----------


## BoSox

If a cure isn't coming out in the near future, can we at least get better hair systems? FFS.

----------


## Arashi

Guys, can you please take the whole FDA discussion to another thread ? We finally have a scientist here (and not just 'a scientist', Aaron Gardner from Jahoda's team !) willing to answer questions regarding the science, please let's focus on that. Thanks !

----------


## bigentries

OK, I think Arashi's suggestion is worth it




> If a cure isn't coming out in the near future, can we at least get better hair systems? FFS.


 A lot of hair systems already look amazing

But they still have the stigma, they can looks as natural as your original hair, but you are screwed the moment someone finds out you are wearing a wig

We need bald stars to embrace them to remove the stigma

----------


## hgs1989

> If a cure isn't coming out in the near future, can we at least get better hair systems? FFS.


 synthetic is there.

----------


## hellouser

Desmond mentioned I'll be creating an infographic on everything hair loss related which could be used for a crowdfunding initiative should there be enough people that aren't naysayers willing to achieve our goal ourselves.

Any chance someone could explain to me how Dr. Jahoda's team creates follicles vs. other teams in such BASIC terms that even a grade schooler could understand? This would benefit the forum too as I'm sure others are pretty lost too.

Thanks.

----------


## walrus

> Guys, can you please take the whole FDA discussion to another thread ? We finally have a scientist here (and not just 'a scientist', Aaron Gardner from Jahoda's team !) willing to answer questions regarding the science, please let's focus on that. Thanks !


 Agreed, FDA bashing should be taken up elsewhere.

----------


## joachim

wow, that's great, Dr. Gardner. 
it's invaluable to have one of the cutting edge researchers here. thanks for taking the time.
before the thread gets out of control, maybe we can set up a separate question&answer thread to post the questions in a well sorted way.
i also have some questions on my list which often appear in forums and are often discussed, but we never had the chance to get them really answered.

if Dr. Gardner is willing to take some time and hang around with us here, then let's take that chance to clarify all the necessary questions, once and for all. maybe we can create a factsheet then, or something like a FAQ. i think hellouser would also appreciate this to get his infographic some steps forward.

----------


## agardner

> Hey Aaron, 
> 
> First of all thanks for joining our forum, you are of great help !
> 
> Secondly, will the treatment/cure you are working on (or any other teams) benefit those who suffer from Diffuse Unpatterned Alopecia? So will it restore a full head of hair to even those who have no terminal hairs?


 I'm not sure. The majority of studies use epithelial cells that are very receptive to follicle induction i.e. mouse or human neonatal epithelial cells. We are attempting to use adult human only cells, but this is "healthy" tissue. As far as I know there are no groups using alopecia scalp tissue to test for inductivity. Speculating, I would assume if an inductive enough construct was created that the initial follicle would form. However, as this isn't treating the underlying causes of the various alopecias I would assume the follicle would then degrade as the previously, perhaps even at a faster rate due to the loss of fatty tissue in the scalp.




> Would this not be bound to the same strenuous FDA clinical trials that last another 8+ years? As you know, many of us have been desperate for years and decades to move on with our lives, so we're looking at the fastest possible treatment. Is there some other country whose health ministry is less restricting on use of stem cell therapy in which we could see a treatment that actually holds up to the typical 'within 5 years' claim?
> 
> Thanks and welcome to the forum!!


 I'm not American or a clinical trials expert so I'm not sure what would have to occur. In the UK if the clinical trial is robust enough then things can pass quite quickly through the MHRA (our equivalent of the FDA). But as I say I'm no clinical trials expert so I can't give you a time frame for that. I was referring to the initial experiment demonstrating the technique appearing without warning.




> Wow, thanks for your elaborate answer Aaron !! Very well laid out, thanks, that clears up my questions and I understand what you guys are doing now. Will come back later though with some other questions, hope you don't mind 
> 
> Thanks again for coming to this forum and explaining all this to us, you're our biggest hope for the future, good luck with your experiments !!


 No worries, happy to explain what I'm up to.




> How is hair growth direction controlled?
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> forhair.com
> Cole Hair Transplant
> 1070 Powers Place
> Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
> Phone 678-566-1011
> email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> ...


 The follicle structures orientate towards the epidermis and do not form cysts. However in the study by Dr Higgins, and my continuation of her work, we are not looking at patterning or angle of egress etc. That's something that will come when we're achieving reliable follicle induction.

----------


## Arashi

Thanks Dr Gardner ! 

Some time ago a forum member asked dr Xu some question, he replied:




> One recent study (Higgins et al., 2013) showed that DP cells can maintain their follicular genetic capacity if they are cultured in 3D. If you read the paper carefully, they used passage 2-3 cells to make a DP cell aggregate in the culture. Since each DP aggregate contains many cells, it means that this procedure can maintain DP cell folliculogenecity, but not necessarily make more DP cell aggregates. Therefore, the authors may or may not be able to make more DP cell aggregates (and more hair follicles) than the original hair follicles that they have taken out from the patients.


 I didnt really understand what he was saying here. Why wouldnt you be able to make more cell aggregates if you can culture the cells and keep their follicle genetic capacity ? Or do you think he's just merely implying that not all cells can be used because of low efficiency ?

----------


## hellouser

> I'm not American or a clinical trials expert so I'm not sure what would have to occur. In the UK if the clinical trial is robust enough then things can pass quite quickly through the MHRA (our equivalent of the FDA). But as I say I'm no clinical trials expert so I can't give you a time frame for that. I was referring to the initial experiment demonstrating the technique appearing without warning.


 Sounds great! Thanks!

Would you be able to provide a 'dumbed down' explanation of your method of creating functioning follicles for humans? Perhaps in 5 short steps? I'm a graphic artist and will be creating an infographic to inform everyone of past successes, current projects, future treatments, barriers, social prejudice and discrimination against men with baldness and psychological effects on both men and women with hair loss. There have been talks about a raising funds for future treatments to expedite progress with regards to costs... naturally, Dr. Jahoda's team has been on our radar for some time now thanks to Desmond84. If all goes well I and others have been more than willing with a grassroots movement. The infographic would be a good starting piece to a very large project.

----------


## joachim

I created a new thread here, for questions & answers with Dr. Aaron Gardner.
So we don't have to go through 50+ pages.

here:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=16284

----------


## Arashi

Ok I've copied the Q&A's from this thread into your new one. If you have a question, please ask it there but please keep it on topic there people !!

----------


## nameless

> Chill out dude, I wonder if you really use that tone in the real world
> 
> What are your options? Which country? Which agency?
> 
> You keep talking trash about the FDA and a magical country and agency out there that is better, but where are them? what are the options? have you talked about them to people who are knowledgable about clinical trials? Why do they still keep on doing the trials with the FDA?
> 
> This isn't about a "random number of years", where are you getting that info? As far as I know the FDA doesn't place a hard number concerning the length of a trial
> 
> Anyway dude, you still can contact me if you want, if you need to vent something


 
You tell people to "Chill out" and then you talk about their tone. Perhaps your tone is the tone that needs to chill.

There's not one thing wrong with what Hellouser's saying. I agree with him 100% about this issue.

----------


## hellouser

> A lot of hair systems already look amazing
> 
> But they still have the stigma, they can looks as natural as your original hair, but you are screwed the moment someone finds out you are wearing a wig
> 
> *We need bald stars to embrace them to remove the stigma*


 
We have one, John Travolta, a former A-lister and people still feel obligated to completely destroy a persons integrity over their hair loss. Even Jon Cryer is shameless about his hair loss and concealers.

Society isn't going to change. Forget it.

----------


## joachim

> We have one, John Travolta, a former A-lister and people still feel obligated to completely destroy a persons integrity over their hair loss. Even Jon Cryer is shameless about his hair loss and concealers.
> 
> Society isn't going to change. Forget it.


 John Travolta is visibly suffering under his baldness. Further, reporters are questioning him always about his hair which is really nasty.
If we ever start a crowdfunding campain, we have to find a way to reach out to the celebs and give them a chance to talk to us anonymously. I'm sure John Travolta would carry the crowdfunding himself. 20 millions is nothing for him. If we have a serious chance of accelerating the cure by years with this money, he wouldn't have to think twice about it.

Money is really not a serious problem in this game.

----------


## hellouser

> John Travolta is visibly suffering under his baldness. Further, reporters are questioning him always about his hair which is really nasty.
> If we ever start a crowdfunding campain, we have to find a way to reach out to the celebs and give them a chance to talk to us anonymously. I'm sure John Travolta would carry the crowdfunding himself. 20 millions is nothing for him. If we have a serious chance of accelerating the cure by years with this money, he wouldn't have to think twice about it.
> 
> Money is really not a serious problem in this game.


 There are many, MANY celebrities that would benefit greatly from having their hair back. If they helped us anonymously we'd have the funds in a very, VERY short time. We just need to make it looks as legitimate and promising as possible. They're NOT going to throw money at chances. They're going to want guarantees, not 'hopes'. But thats another discussion.

----------


## Artha

What about Juda Law!

----------


## BoSox

New article:
http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/Health-...CommentSection

Video near bottom.

----------


## hellouser

> New article:
> http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/Health-...CommentSection
> 
> Video near bottom.


 Meh. 11 minute video and she spent most of the time talking about women's hair loss. I really don't see how the numbers in women with hair loss are as high as they say they are.

----------


## Artha

> I really don't see how the numbers in women with hair loss are as high as they say they are.


 The number of women with hair loss is about the same as men but they lose it slower!

----------


## mmmcoffee

I gotta say, there's a cashier at the cafeteria at my work, she has lost maybe 80% of her hair, nearly slick bald on top. She don't seem to care....makes all of us on here look like a bunch of p*****s honestly. 

Though it's more common in men to have that degree of loss, it's equally as important for women to get a cure...

----------


## nameless

> The number of women with hair loss is about the same as men but they lose it slower!


 There are about 20 million women in America dealing with hair loss and 35 million men. Also, women only lose their hair slower they also don't go bald in the huge numbers that men do.

----------


## hellouser

Does anyone have any info at all from that 400 person trial in Vietnam? I believe Dr. Xu has something to do with it?

----------


## joachim

> Does anyone have any info at all from that 400 person trial in Vietnam? I believe Dr. Xu has something to do with it?


 would be best to contact the guys by email somehow. do we have any contact info online available? we need to know what the hell they are doing in this trial.

----------


## sdsurfin

> would be best to contact the guys by email somehow. do we have any contact info online available? we need to know what the hell they are doing in this trial.


 Dr. Xu has nothing to do with this, are you for real? 
he works for Penn medicine, and is not in taiwan.

it doesn't really matter what the taiwanese are doing, according to xu and gardner and everyone else, they have not achieved enough inductivity or gene expression to really make a difference as far as a "cure". will be interesting to see what kind of hairs they can grow though- probably not impressive. will have to wait til they finish their trials and publish.

also, for whoever was asking what the difference betwen gene expression and inductivity is. well, they are two completely different things. are they correlated? yes.  gene expression is how much of the original genetic coding a cultured cell retains.  In other words, how much of the original DNA is intact.  Iductivity is the cells capacity to say "ok time to grow hair."  This clearly happens more when the cell is more akin to its original version, because that is what normal DP cells do.  On the other hand, say you restore 100 percent gene expression- that doesnt mean that in every situation the DP cell is going to induce hair. inducing hair also depends on its environment, signalling between other cells, etc.  

However, the good news is that it seems to be the case that the more they restore the gene expression, the more likely it is that some kind of hair is induced.  My guess is that the type and health of this hair is going to depend on many environmental factors that are going to take a long time to figure out and test.  It's like planting a good new plant in crappy soil. you have to palnt a good plant but also fix the soil situation. hopefully things like replicel and histogen and -fingers crossed- other newer therapies will come to fruition and provide the necessary boost for our scalps so that new follicles can grow. in any case, you can see how complicated its all going to be.  my bet is that by the time all that comes to pass, ill have stopped giving a shit to undergo all that expensive treatment.  Hopefully by the time our children are adults, the preventative treatments will be great and they wont have to go through any of it. interesting stuff nonetheless.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> The number of women with hair loss is about the same as men but they lose it slower!


 Nearly all women with advanced hair loss wear a wig.  Contrast that to men.  Women's wigs are more convincing that men's hairpieces IMO.  I saw a young woman a while ago who's hair looked perfectly natural.  I later learned that she was wearing a wig because of extensive hair loss.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## efedrez

Does anyone knows if Desmond has been able to upload the videos from the conference somewhere?

I believe he was having issues with the format but probably fix them by now

----------


## thechamp

> I never said it was the cure. It is the next best thing. Isotephersis WORKS. It's a fact. Zinc blocks DHT and is good for hair. It's a fact. It's only logical that using zinc with the best delivery system available today (far better than oral delivery) would offer good results.
> 
> Look at vrafs latest side by side.. and thats only 5 months! fin takes 12-18 months for the final conclusion. look at the other results too!
> 
> I'm not just guessing. The background science is there...


 Man where can we look at these pics you have a link ?? Where can I get more info on piloxll since the forum is closed?

----------


## joachim

> Man where can we look at these pics you have a link ?? Where can I get more info on piloxll since the forum is closed?


 which forum is it? and why is it closed now?

----------


## DifferentLine

> Desmond mentioned I'll be creating an infographic on everything hair loss related which could be used for a crowdfunding initiative should there be enough people that aren't naysayers willing to achieve our goal ourselves.
> 
> Any chance someone could explain to me how Dr. Jahoda's team creates follicles vs. other teams in such BASIC terms that even a grade schooler could understand? This would benefit the forum too as I'm sure others are pretty lost too.
> 
> Thanks.


 I have some spare time atm. If crowdfunding does get underway, what could someone like me do to contribute to the cause?

----------


## Desmond84

Hi guys,

So as promised here's the first video. Since Dr Cotsarelis has so much following, I thought I'll upload his presentation first. So here you go  :Smile:  Many more videos to follow in the coming days.


Dr George Cotsarelis: Advances in Understanding Androgenetic Alopecia

We originally localised hair follicle stem cells to the mouse and hair follicle bulge. Much progress has been made in our understanding of mouse bulge cells, but the relevance of this information to human hair follicle biology is not often studied. So, we evaluated the status of hair follicle stem cells in Androgenetic Alopecia. We analysed bald and non-bald scalp from men with Androgenetic Alopecia (AGA) for the presence of hair follicle stem and progenitor cells. Cells expressing cytokeratin 15 (KRT15), CD200, CD34, and alpha-6 Integrin (ITGA6) were quantified via flow cytometry. High levels of KRT15 expression correlated with stem cell properties of small size and quiescence. These KRT15hi stem cells were maintained in bald scalp samples. However, CD200hi/ITGA6hi and CD34hi cell populations - which both possessed a progenitor phenotype, in that they localised closelyto the stem cell-rich bulge area but were larger and more proliferative than the KRT15hi stem cells - were marked diminished. These findings support the notion that a defect in conversion of hair follicle stem cells to progenitor cells plays a role in the pathogenesis of AGA.

We then showed that prostaglandin D2 Synthase (PTGDS) is elevated at the mRNA and protein levels in balding scalp compared to haired scalp of men with AGA. The product of PTGDS enzyme activity, prostaglandin D2 (PGD2), is similarly elevated in bald scalp. PGD2 inhibits hair growth in explanted human hair follicles and when applied topically to mice. Hair growth inhibition requires the PGD2 receptor (GPR44). Furthermore, we find that a transgenic mouse, K14-Ptgs2, demonstrates elevated levels of PGD2 in skin and develops alopecia, follicular miniturisation, and sebaceous gland hyperplasia, which are all hallmarks of human AGA. These results define PGD2 as an inhibitor of hair growth in AGA and suggest the PGD2-GPR44 pathway as a potential target for treatment.

----------


## Thinning87

Tahnks for posting Bro.

Question: this is pretty much what they knew before the June 2013 news release. No mention at all about FGF9...

Hopefully they really are trying to recycle the Asthma clinical trials to deliver a treatment, but he made no mention at all about effectiveness of such a treatment, especially over a bald scalp (Although he did mention that the stem cells are still there, so that should be positive, correct??)

----------


## Desmond84

> Tahnks for posting Bro.
> 
> Question: this is pretty much what they knew before the June 2013 news release. No mention at all about FGF9...
> 
> Hopefully they really are trying to recycle the Asthma clinical trials to deliver a treatment, but he made no mention at all about effectiveness of such a treatment, especially over a bald scalp (Although he did mention that the stem cells are still there, so that should be positive, correct??)


 Yeah I know! Cotsarelis made the least contribution in this conference by a mile! I guess he had nothing new to talk about. I just thought you guys should see it for yourself  :Smile:  

He does mention some stuff about developing a new PGD2 blocker in the near future though. I guess it is a good sign. 

There are many amazing presentations to come. There was a few that literally blew my mind in terms of being out there. TBC  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

> Hi guys,
> 
> So as promised here's the first video. Since Dr Cotsarelis has so much following, I thought I'll upload his presentation first. So here you go  Many more videos to follow in the coming days.
> 
> 
> Dr George Cotsarelis: Advances in Understanding Androgenetic Alopecia
> 
> We originally localised hair follicle stem cells to the mouse and hair follicle bulge. Much progress has been made in our understanding of mouse bulge cells, but the relevance of this information to human hair follicle biology is not often studied. So, we evaluated the status of hair follicle stem cells in Androgenetic Alopecia. We analysed bald and non-bald scalp from men with Androgenetic Alopecia (AGA) for the presence of hair follicle stem and progenitor cells. Cells expressing cytokeratin 15 (KRT15), CD200, CD34, and alpha-6 Integrin (ITGA6) were quantified via flow cytometry. High levels of KRT15 expression correlated with stem cell properties of small size and quiescence. These KRT15hi stem cells were maintained in bald scalp samples. However, CD200hi/ITGA6hi and CD34hi cell populations - which both possessed a progenitor phenotype, in that they localised closelyto the stem cell-rich bulge area but were larger and more proliferative than the KRT15hi stem cells - were marked diminished. These findings support the notion that a defect in conversion of hair follicle stem cells to progenitor cells plays a role in the pathogenesis of AGA.
> 
> We then showed that prostaglandin D2 Synthase (PTGDS) is elevated at the mRNA and protein levels in balding scalp compared to haired scalp of men with AGA. The product of PTGDS enzyme activity, prostaglandin D2 (PGD2), is similarly elevated in bald scalp. PGD2 inhibits hair growth in explanted human hair follicles and when applied topically to mice. Hair growth inhibition requires the PGD2 receptor (GPR44). Furthermore, we find that a transgenic mouse, K14-Ptgs2, demonstrates elevated levels of PGD2 in skin and develops alopecia, follicular miniturisation, and sebaceous gland hyperplasia, which are all hallmarks of human AGA. These results define PGD2 as an inhibitor of hair growth in AGA and suggest the PGD2-GPR44 pathway as a potential target for treatment.


 Thanks Desmond!

Interesting stuff starts at 22:55

Cotsarelis says that there are at least 7 drug companies that have developed inhibitors of PGD2.

Now... which ones are they?

----------


## Thinning87

I think this information is public on clinical trials . Gov

----------


## Swooping

> Thanks Desmond!
> 
> Interesting stuff starts at 22:55
> 
> Cotsarelis says that there are at least 7 drug companies that have developed inhibitors of PGD2.
> 
> Now... which ones are they?


 OC000459 and TM30089 for example.

----------


## hellouser

> OC000459 and TM30089 for example.


 Neither of those work. If they did, Kane would be out of stock and there'd be a LOT more talk about it.

----------


## Arashi

Thanks for posting Desmond, cant wait to see the next !

----------


## joachim

interesting... i didn't know that cots has hairloss too, at the vertex.
from the standard interviews with him it's never visible.

if he was losing hair faster he probably would have the cure already =)

----------


## breakbot

Did you notice that Cotsarelis is an mpb sufferer too?
Lol, if he discoreved somekind of cure wouldn't he tried himshelf?

----------


## joachim

but seriously, about the PGD2 talk: did nobody of the researchers ever had the idea to compare bald with non-balding scalp to find out where the differences could be?
why do they come up with such "simple" comparisons in 2014? isn't the technology for dissecting scalp and comparing different cells and markers available for at least 3 decades? this seems a bit amateurish to me. and now, another decade to release the PGD2 inhibitor.

----------


## Thinning87

My hope is really that he was trolling, and is up to something more than this... I mean the stuff he presented is basically old a couple years at least, and no mention about FGF9 and wounding... and then what he told Desmond... either they're up to something he doesn't want to talk about, or pretty much things are at a halt.

----------


## kobefan234

> My hope is really that he was trolling, and is up to something more than this... I mean the stuff he presented is basically old a couple years at least, and no mention about FGF9 and wounding... and then what he told Desmond... either they're up to something he doesn't want to talk about, or pretty much things are at a halt.


 The Latter

----------


## hellouser

> My hope is really that he was trolling, and is up to something more than this... I mean the stuff he presented is basically old a couple years at least, and no mention about FGF9 and wounding... and then what he told Desmond... either they're up to something he doesn't want to talk about, or pretty much things are at a halt.


 Here's my take (I've posted it before)




> Follica has ONE phase trial left before commercialization which would effectively allow itself to completely DOMINATE the market until a cure comes along which isnt happening for the next 8 years. This would give them 8 years of raking in tens or hundreds of millions of dollars and the only thing holding them back is a measly 2 million dollars?
> 
> Something is wrong with that. One of the following must be true;
> - Dr. Cotsarelis trolled the hell out of Desmond and lied (for corporate reasons)
> - Follica is incredibly incompetent with securing funds
> - like some of you had said their procedure doesnt work as well as we'd think and no one is willing to invest....
> 
> But if no one is willing to invest, why the hell did they claim last year they're able to create NEW follicles from wounding? Wouldn't multiple passes of Follica's treatment ultimately get you cured? That would be enough to have investers look at their progress and say 'oh wow, you've effectively created a treatment that is far superior to anything out on the market today which garners billions of dollars for treatments that DONT work'. Can any of you imagine what the revenue would be for baldness if we had treatments that DID work? The figures would skyrocket... so why the hell would anyone pass up on the opportunity to put only 2 million dollars to have the next 8+ years be completely loaded with profits and basically a monopoly on the market? Even if a cure DID come out, wounding would still be a viable option to those that couldn't afford or didnt need a full out treatment of individual follicles being lab grown and implanted.
> 
> ...

----------


## Desmond84

Hi guys,

Dr Aaron Gardner's 3D modelling presentation should become available once it finishes uploading in the next 8 hours or so. Already working on the next presentation.

I've been getting a lot of emails about the speed at which I am uploading. Guys believe me when I say it is a lot more work than it looks...lol

Just editing one presentation, syncing in the sound from the voice recorder, encoding and uploading takes well over 20 hours. I am spending all of my free time working on these presentations so please be patient. I'm sure our graphic designers can sympathise  :Smile: 

Also, sorry if I'm not discussing much about the presentations themselves. I'm so occupied with the whole editing process I barely get a chance to break it down in layman terms for everyone. I'm just trying to get the information out and then we can spend the next few months discussing the actual presentations.

Please be patient...I'll be uploading a presentation by a Japanese team tomorrow who were inspired by astronauts and gravity to generate hair follicles. That's a really awesome one to watch. I'll be working on that tonight after work.

We have enough info from this congress to occupy everyones time till the end of summer lol

----------


## Arashi

Thanks Desmond, for all the time you've put and are putting into this. Very much appreciated !!

----------


## Arashi

Posted in another thread but very ontopic here:



> Hopefully his team will contribute to a better treatment, but who knows if any of that pgd2 stuff will be of any use.  Just because one gene is elevated in the scalp and inhibits growth doesnt mean that blocking it will stop hair loss. It's probably just one of many chemical pathways that play a part.


 These were EXACTLY my thoughts after viewing his presentation. It's interesting to research it and in theory might indeed be key but it seems quite a bit of a long shot.

----------


## Thinning87

This is perfectly fine Desmond

----------


## Desmond84

Hi guys, 

Here's Dr Aaron Gardner's presentation as promised. Enjoy  :Wink: 

P.S. its my pleasure to be part of this inspiring project Arashi  :Smile:  


Dr Aaron Gardner: Dermal-Epidermal Interactions in 3D Culture Restore Markers of DP Inductivity 


Background: Human Dermal Papilla (DP) rapidly lose their inductive capability in culture. Recent work has demonstrated that forming DP in 3D spheroids, partially restores their native gene-expression profile and inductive abilities. However, fully functional papilla almost certainly require further epithelial interaction/signalling.

Objectives: We hypothesised that further restoration of in vivo DP character either through genetic or environmental manipulation would restore hair follicle inductivity.

Methods: Adult human dermal sheath (DS), dermal fibroblasts (DF) and DP cells were cultured as hanging drops. After formation, spheroid cultures were coated with adult human keratinocytes. Interactions between the two populations were assessed via immunofluorescence and electron microscopy. Inductivity potential was assessed by implanting spheres into adult fibrin-gel dermal models or adult human skin biopsies and observing early morphological changes.

Results: Keratinocytes coated onto follicular dermal cell spheres developed a stratified epithelium with Keratin-14 expressed throughout and Keratin-10 only present supra-basally, there was also evidence of proto-basement memberane formation detected by pan-laminin. Coated spheres also displayed elevated Lef1 expression, implicated in hair follicle induction, as well as periostin and SPARC, implicated in epithelial remodelling and support, at the interface between the two populations compared to controls. 
When implanted into fibrin gels, DS & DP but not DF spheroids induced down-growth of epithelium reminiscent of early follicle development. When implanted into adult human skin on athymic mice, coated DS and DP but not DF nor any uncoated spheres induced epithelial down-growth.

Conclusion: Coating follicular dermal cells with Keratinocytes results in the development of stratified but not fully mature epithelium, and also induces the expression of potential markers of inductivity. Moreover, coated follicular dermal cells were able to induce epithelial down-growth in adult human tissue. Further work is aimed at a better understanding of the epithelial mesenchymal interactions underpinning inductivity, and towards consistent human follicle neogenesis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-u_L3ohE68

----------


## Le Bald

Could you dumb this down for us non science people? How close is this getting us to a treatment? Or is it a small step in the notch of evidence to get a solution for more effective treatment?

----------


## Artista

*Desmond,* we all very much *APPRECIATE* your time and effort in attending the Conference and then connecting with  prevalent  doctors dedicated to their research. I hope that you had developed the 'thick-skin' needed to be able to deal with certain aspects to all of this....
*Thank you so much Desmond* !! :Smile:  *CHEERS*
   (Ill watch the video now)

----------


## Desmond84

> Could you dumb this down for us non science people? How close is this getting us to a treatment? Or is it a small step in the notch of evidence to get a solution for more effective treatment?


 I spoke to 3 teams that are at the forefront of engineering a hair follicle. All 3 teams believed that we are within 2-3 years of growing fully functional hair follicles in a lab setting. It's just a matter of trying several different combination to get the DP cells to instruct hair follicle formation. They believe most of those combinations will be trialed within that timeframe. I actually said to one team "So you think we'll have engineered hairs on a human scalp by 2020" and they looked at me with a very confident face and said even sooner than that! So I don't know if that is a good sign for everyone or not! I was pretty certain most of them are onto something big! 

Hope that helps brother.

----------


## Desmond84

> *Desmond,* we all very much *APPRECIATE* your time and effort in attending the Conference and then connecting with  prevalent  doctors dedicated to their research. I hope that you had developed the 'thick-skin' needed to be able to deal with certain aspects to all of this....
> *Thank you so much Desmond* !! *CHEERS*
>    (Ill watch the video now)


 Hahahha Artista :-) Thank you so much!

All good. Pretty much everyones been lovely throughout this whole project. There's always some skepticism, which is understandable. We are all anonymous after all  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> I spoke to 3 teams that are at the forefront of engineering a hair follicle. All 3 teams believed that we are within 2-3 years of growing fully functional hair follicles in a lab setting. It's just a matter of trying several different combination to get the DP cells to instruct hair follicle formation. They believe most of those combinations will be trialed within that timeframe. I actually said to one team "So you think we'll have engineered hairs on a human scalp by 2020" and they looked at me with a very confident face and said even sooner than that! So I don't know if that is a good sign for everyone or not! I was pretty certain most of them are onto something big! 
> 
> Hope that helps brother.


 We gotta ensure that whoever finishes first runs their clinical trials in Japan!

Check out what Gremlin wrote in the Replicel thread:




> Now I was reading about this specific law Replicel is using to speed the delivery of their product in Japan and according to Market Watch - a reputable site dealing with business news "Japan's new policy requires an early stage clinical trial (call it a Phase I or small Phase II) at the minimum to confirm safety of the therapy and provide some plausible evidence of efficacy. Rather than requiring that the therapy then be evaluated in subsequent trials before making it available to patients, Japan's new law will allow for a "conditional approval" enabling the product to be brought to market, and for the product to obtain reimbursement in an accelerated manner."
> 
> So if I understand this correctly, does this not mean that they can start testing it on patients right away since they have already completed their phase 1 trial?
> 
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jap...-be-2014-03-03

----------


## Desmond84

Yes. I couldn't agree with you more Hell. We got our foot in the door. Many scientists are now aware of our existence. So many of them were actually blown away that we were following their work so closely. It gave them a slight boost I would say. 

So, we should really keep a close watch on how the Japan policy pans out and what are the requirements and once a team has a working solution we can provide them with up to date information about how to go about releasing it in a clinical setting.

Big thumbs up dude

----------


## Le Bald

Hi Desmond,

My apologies, didn't mean to sound disrespectful before - just needed an interpretation for us dumb people  :Wink: 


Is this then moving to holy grail of unlimited donor? Is that the goal?

Cheers,

Le bald

----------


## Paul73

Hi Desmond, i have been following your efforts and would like to congratulate you and all the people here that are trying to make things happen. This attitude will make the difference if we want something happening in the near future. 

I don't know if someone asked you before, so please sorry if i am repeating a question, but were Histogen or Replicel mentioned during the Congress? Are you optimistic about them and do you think that someone who already did a HT will still be a candidate for these regenerative treatments?

Thanks!

----------


## Desmond84

> Hi Desmond,
> 
> My apologies, didn't mean to sound disrespectful before - just needed an interpretation for us dumb people 
> 
> 
> Is this then moving to holy grail of unlimited donor? Is that the goal?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Le bald


 No problems my man...not disrespectful at all! I was replying to answers and working on the videos at the same time, so my reply was a bit fast-paced! LOL

During these presentations, you will notice that many of them are getting great results in terms of restoring hair inductivity in the early passages of DP culturing. Not so much in the latter passages. SO I actually asked them if that is a problem and would they have enough DP produced with these early passages to completely restore a bald scalp. The answer was: "the number of DP cells cultured in these early passages is sufficient to restore hairs on a scalp who is above NW6 and even maybe NW7!" 

I could literally hear my heart pounding rapidly when I heard that response.

----------


## brunobald

Hi Desmond many thanks for your work, I hope you got a lot out of your trip.

Is hair restoration the main aim of any of the groups. Or is it seen as a spin off application to a much bigger aim like for example creating other oragans using the same technique and the hair follicule is only being used becasue it is easy to harvest the stems cell, follicles etc..

----------


## Desmond84

> Hi Desmond, i have been following your efforts and would like to congratulate you and all the people here that are trying to make things happen. This attitude will make the difference if we want something happening in the near future. 
> 
> I don't know if someone asked you before, so please sorry if i am repeating a question, but were Histogen or Replicel mentioned during the Congress? Are you optimistic about them and do you think that someone who already did a HT will still be a candidate for these regenerative treatments?
> 
> Thanks!


 Hi brother,

Unfortunately, Histogen & Replicel did not attend the congress but Dr McElwee (CEO of Replicel) did. He was actually the chairman of a few presentations and did a talk as well. His presentation was not related to his work with Replicel and was purely academic. I don't remember anything outstanding from his presentation either. 

To my surprise Aderans was present and they had a 30 minute presentation on "Evidence for Wig Effect on Quality of Life of Hair Loss Patients"! It was so painful to see how low they've come that I didn't even attend their poster presentation. It seemed to me that they have lost all interest in cell therapy.

This is my take on our situation. We can break down hair treatments into THREE categories:

1) Available therapies: Finasteride, Dutasteride, Minoxidil

2) Transition therapies: These are therapies that are on par with our current treatments or maybe slightly more effective and may become available before the end of this decade. Histogen & Replicel fall into this category as well as CB-03-01. CB is my personal favourite and I think will provide a great solution to many early sufferers.

3) Hair regeneration: this is what many call the 'ultimate cure' and involves growing hair follicles in a lab and then transplanting it. Our aim in terms of attending this congress was to gauge how close we are to reaching this goal and so far the signs have been VERY positive indeed with most researchers being quite optimistic about timelines. My guess is it may become available in a clinical setting by early 2020s if one of these teams cracks it in the next 3 years.

Hope that helps  :Wink:

----------


## Paul73

Wow, it certainly helped! I appreciated how you organized the response. You made a honest and simple picture on where we are and how we are. Thank you! 

I just like to know two last things, i know you have been busy: 

- In the case of regenerative therapies, do you think that they could be used for those who already had hair transplant? Will the scar tissues in the recipient area prevent miniaturized /dormant follicles from producing health hairs again?

- Until we put our hands on CB, do you think that RU can be an alternative? I am very afraid of the risk of cancer in the long run! 

Sorry for any english mistakes and thanks again! Your attention to everyone here is admirable.

----------


## hellouser

> 3) Hair regeneration: this is what many call the 'ultimate cure' and involves growing hair follicles in a lab and then transplanting it. Our aim in terms of attending this congress was to gauge how close we are to reaching this goal and so far the signs have been VERY positive indeed with most researchers being quite optimistic about timelines. My guess is it may become available in a clinical setting by early 2020s if one of these teams cracks it in the next 3 years.
> 
> Hope that helps


 I don't understand this. If a team cracks it within 3 years, lets say in 2017, why would clinical trials need to be delayed for another 3 or more years?

----------


## Arashi

> I don't understand this. If a team cracks it within 3 years, lets say in 2017, why would clinical trials need to be delayed for another 3 or more years?


 I think Desmond means with 'clinical setting' simply available in the clinic.

----------


## hellouser

> I think Desmond means with 'clinical setting' simply available in the clinic.


 My bad, I read it wrong. But 6 years aint TOO bad... If any team has it cracked now, it could be reduced significantly given Japan's deregulation.... or India (though with a credible doctor).

----------


## Desmond84

> Wow, it certainly helped! I appreciated how you organized the response. You made a honest and simple picture on where we are and how we are. Thank you! 
> 
> I just like to know two last things, i know you have been busy: 
> 
> - In the case of regenerative therapies, do you think that they could be used for those who already had hair transplant? Will the scar tissues in the recipient area prevent miniaturized /dormant follicles from producing health hairs again?
> 
> - Until we put our hands on CB, do you think that RU can be an alternative? I am very afraid of the risk of cancer in the long run! 
> 
> Sorry for any english mistakes and thanks again! Your attention to everyone here is admirable.


 Its no problem at all  :Smile: 

From what I understood during the congress, there are TWO possible approaches to create a fully functional hair follicle:

a) A fully functional hair follicle is produced in a lab setting on a chip or growth medium and then transplanted; or

b) A mini-follicle is produced in a lab and then implanted into the recipient area. This mini-follicle will then interact with the surrounding environment (epidermal layer) to sprout a hair follicle. 

Now, which way it will turn out to be remain elusive at this point in time but the ramifications of these therapies can be significant for patients with scar tissue. If the first method becomes the gold standard then at least in theory there should be no issues for patients who have scar tissue present in their scalp area, since, an entire follicle with all of its appendages are implanted, very much like a hair graft during transplantation. 

But, if the second method is the only way they could produce the hair follicle then the scar tissue may become a problem. 

___________________________________

As for your second question regarding RU. 

It is important to know the difference between RU & CB. Although they are both anti-androgens, RU is an active ingredient with 20-30% systemic absorption after topical application. 

CB on the other, is only active when applied to the skin. By the time it reaches into the lower skin layers and enters the bloodstream, specific enzymes have broken it down to inactive chemicals that are rapidly excreted from the body. 

That is why so many ppl still report sexual adverse effects after using RU. So in my opinion either take micro-doses of Finasteride orally (0.25mg/twice per week) or crush it up and dissolve it in a vehicle and apply it topically. At least you know the safety record of finasteride and possible long term effects. As a member said earlier with RU you are playing a russian roulette or RU Roulette LOL.

I personally have been taking 0.25mg of fin twice per week for well over 20 months now and have maintained my hair at baseline and have seen all the adverse effects resolve after the first 12 months. 

Hope that helps brother and all the best. All we can do is make the best decisions with the information available and although RU may be safe we just don't know enough about it!

Cheers

----------


## Desmond84

> My bad, I read it wrong. But 6 years aint TOO bad... If any team has it cracked now, it could be reduced significantly given Japan's deregulation.... or India (though with a credible doctor).


 Yeah sorry Hell. I meant for patient to access from their doctor  :Wink:

----------


## Desmond84

Guys btw, I just watched some of the presentation by Dr Rei Ogawa (The Japanese team I was telling you about). It is so fascinating. I really want you guys to watch it. I should hopefully have it up by tomorrow sometime. He is doing some crazy things and seeing results! It's so out there that for the first 5 minutes I thought I was at the wrong lecture LOL. I actually was so blown away by this lecture that I ran up to him to ask for a quick one on one chat but he was catching a flight that same morning to Seoul to present his findings at ANOTHER conference!!! An awesome guy in my opinion. 

Stay tuned for this one  :Wink:  Its 50 minutes but it's well worth it!

----------


## hellouser

> Guys btw, I just watched some of the presentation by Dr Rei Ogawa (The Japanese team I was telling you about). It is so fascinating. I really want you guys to watch it. I should hopefully have it up by tomorrow sometime. He is doing some crazy things and seeing results! It's so out there that for the first 5 minutes I thought I was at the wrong lecture LOL. I actually was so blown away by this lecture that I ran up to him to ask for a quick one on one chat but he was catching a *flight that same morning to Seoul to present his findings at ANOTHER conference!!!* An awesome guy in my opinion. 
> 
> Stay tuned for this one  Its 50 minutes but it's well worth it!


 Any idea what the other conference might be?

----------


## Paul73

Thanks Desmond.

I just hope the strip HT I did 10 years ago (1000 grafts on the temples) does not prevent me from being benefited by future therapies.

----------


## Desmond84

> Any idea what the other conference might be?


 Not really sure. He is a plastic surgeon so maybe something to do with that I guess. I tried to search for it on Google but nothing really stood out. Here's what I could find on him:

Rei Ogawa has the M.D. and Ph.D. degrees. He is currently a faculty member at the Nippon Medical School in Tokyo, Japan, with a position of an Associate Professor at the Department of Plastic, Reconstructive, and Aesthetic Surgery. Also, he is a visiting lecturer at the Department of Plastic Surgery in Tokyo University from April 2013.

He is a fellow of American College of Surgeons. In addition, he is now directing the Mechanobiology and Mechanotherapy Laboratory at his medical school. He joined the Tissue Engineering and Wound Healing Laboratory, Brigham and Womens Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, USA, where he worked between 2007 and 2009 as a Research Fellow. He has focused his recent studies on the mechanobiology of cells and its application to tissue engineering, wound healing and anti-aging medicine. He established a method to regenerate high-quality cartilage using mechanical force (hydrostatic pressure) loading. Moreover, his clinical specialty is reconstructive surgery and scar management, for example, abnormal scar (keloid and hypertrophic scars) prevention and treatment. In relation to this, he studied mechanobiology of scarring, and he is a world leader in this area.

He was the recipient of several awards, for example, the Award of Japanese Society of Plastic Surgery, and many research grants (e.g., grant-in-aid for scientific research in Japan). Moreover, he holds several national patents in the field of tissue engineering. He is an Editorial Board Member of many international / local scientific journals (e.g., Current Stem Cell Research and Therapy, Journal of Japanese Society of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery) and is a Board Member of international/local medical societies (e.g., Japanese Society of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery (JSPRS), International Scar Meeting). In addition, he is an active Member of many international medical societies (e.g., American College of Surgeons(ACS), American Society of Plastic Surgeons (ASPS), Plastic Surgery Research Council (PSRC), and Orthopedic Research Society (ORS)). He has coauthored over 50 chapters in international/national books, coauthored over 320 papers in international/national scientific journals, and has presented over 910 coauthored papers at international/national conferences including over 160 invited lectures

----------


## Desmond84

> Thanks Desmond.
> 
> I just hope the strip HT I did 10 years ago (1000 grafts on the temples) does not prevent me from being benefited by future therapies.


 Gotta stay positive my man. I'm sure there will be a workable way around it if it was option B indeed. For example, they will implant the mini-follicle in non-scarred areas and simply cover the scarred areas with grafts from your donor zone. Stay strong. Great things are coming in the near future. That is for certain  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

It's funny how the forum is only active when Desmond posts... lol.

----------


## Paul73

But from what I understand, the whole region around these 1000 transplanted hairs are scar tissue, no? 

That means the area/hairs around the transplanted ones were traumatized to the point of not providing healthy environment for new hair growth. 

Or are "scar tissues" the points under the transplanted hairs? I guess i am a bit confused about it  :Frown:

----------


## Desmond84

Hahhaha Hell, non of this could have happened if it wasn't for all the time you and Arashi put into this. Don't downplay it my man. 

You know when I went up to Dr Atac & Linder, they were so forthcoming and were so impressed by your emails to them. It really made it so much easier for me to introduce myself and tell them what I'm doing at such a conference  :Smile:  Big thumbs up to you man. 

I was actually thinking maybe that's why Cotsarelis was so distant and cold when I was talking to him. The whole time he must have been trying to figure out who I actually was and why was I recording everything LOL

----------


## Desmond84

> But from what I understand, the whole region around these 1000 transplanted hairs are scar tissue, no? 
> 
> That means the area/hairs around the transplanted ones were traumatized to the point of not providing healthy environment for new hair growth. 
> 
> Or are "scar tissues" the points under the transplanted hairs? I guess i am a bit confused about it


 Paul tbh, I'm not an expert on hair transplants. I actually know very little about it. Your question should be posed at some of the hair transplant doctors that are regularly posting here. 

Sorry brother

----------


## hellouser

> Hahhaha Hell, non of this could have happened if it wasn't for all the time you and Arashi put into this. Don't downplay it my man. 
> 
> You know when I went up to Dr Atac & Linder, they were so forthcoming and were so impressed by your emails to them. It really made it so much easier for me to introduce myself and tell them what I'm doing at such a conference  Big thumbs up to you man.


 Well my main concern was to get them on record for you before they vanished or something. I'm sure you can handle talking to strangers, but availability was the priority.

Speaking of which, any news on their presentation?




> I was actually thinking maybe that's why Cotsarelis was so distant and cold when I was talking to him. The whole time he must have been trying to figure out who I actually was and why was I recording everything LOL


 Perhaps? I don't know... I did talk to his administrator a couple times and she said she'd get in touch with Dr. Cotsarelis but nothing really came of it.

----------


## Desmond84

> Well my main concern was to get them on record for you before they vanished or something. I'm sure you can handle talking to strangers, but availability was the priority.
> 
> Speaking of which, any news on their presentation?
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps? I don't know... I did talk to his administrator a couple times and she said she'd get in touch with Dr. Cotsarelis but nothing really came of it.


 Yeah Cots definitely didn't want to talk me LOL...all good though. I got to ask some key questions  :Smile: 

I'm finalising the draft to email Dr Linder and Atac. It should be ready by tomorrow night. Hopefully they get back to me ASAP and I can post it here  :Wink:

----------


## Desmond84

Trouble is I was not even allowed to record the voices. So I had to quickly jot down quick points. They're very cautious about what is released about their work. I also have to forward them a copy of Dr Atac's presentation before they give me the go-ahead. 

I can tell you this much though Hell, you honed in on them a few years back and rightfully so. They are doing some magical work and very exciting indeed  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

> Trouble is I was not even allowed to record the voices. So I had to quickly jot down quick points. They're very cautious about what is released about their work. I also have to forward them a copy of Dr Atac's presentation before they give me the go-ahead. 
> 
> I can tell you this much though Hell, you honed in on them a few years back and rightfully so. They are doing some magical work and very exciting indeed


 I always had a good feeling about them... I just could never understand why Lauster's team was completely silent... they're like Follica.

----------


## Desmond84

> I always had a good feeling about them... I just could never understand why Lauster's team was completely silent... they're like Follica.


 Hahahaha, they are soooo nice though. I couldn't believe it. Complete opposite to Cots!

----------


## hellouser

> Hahahaha, they are soooo nice though. I couldn't believe it. Complete opposite to Cots!


 I hope they didn't see my Lauster meme... 'finds cure baldness, does nothing about it' lol

----------


## Desmond84

> I hope they didn't see my Lauster meme... 'finds cure baldness, does nothing about it' lol


 ROFLCOPTER....I just chocked on my tea LMAO

We should sooooo show it to them. I bet they get a real kick out of it.....hahahahahahahha

Uhh hell, ur just awesome  :Smile:

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Hi guys,
> 
> So as promised here's the first video. Since Dr Cotsarelis has so much following, I thought I'll upload his presentation first. So here you go  Many more videos to follow in the coming days.
> 
> 
> Dr George Cotsarelis: Advances in Understanding Androgenetic Alopecia


 Thank you for posting this.  It's very encouraging.  It's great to see technology and expertise put to good use picking apart the mechanics of this dreaded affliction.  We can read about things like this all day long, but nothing beats a good live PowerPoint presentation.

I believe it's important that the researchers responsible for a major breakthrough down the road are appropriately compensated.  I hope these people are protecting themselves from anyone with a copycat mindset attempting to cash in on their research.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## Thinning87

> Yeah Cots definitely didn't want to talk me LOL...all good though. I got to ask some key questions


 What's your take on Follica after the presentation Desmond? I mean, no mention at all about wounding... And a very small mention to fgf5. 

I guess he may have gone there to represent the university not the company. But still... 

He didn't happen to mention fgf9 or anything related to the June 2013 news?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> What's your take on Follica after the presentation Desmond? I mean, no mention at all about wounding... And a very small mention to fgf5. 
> He didn't happen to mention fgf9 or anything related to the June 2013 news?


 When you think about it, not mentioning something may indicate something proprietary kept under wraps. 

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hellouser

> When you think about it, not mentioning something may indicate something proprietary kept under wraps.


 Just like Dr. Lauster's team for 3+ years.

----------


## Sogeking

Hi Desmond, glad you you are back and okay. One thing I would like to mention. Dr. Gardner said:



> A:
>  I'm not sure. The majority of studies use epithelial cells that are very receptive to follicle induction i.e. mouse or human neonatal epithelial cells. We are attempting to use adult human only cells, but this is "healthy" tissue. As far as I know there are no groups using alopecia scalp tissue to test for inductivity. Speculating, I would assume if an inductive enough construct was created that the initial follicle would form. *However, as this isn't treating the underlying causes of the various alopecias I would assume the follicle would then degrade as the previously, perhaps even at a faster rate due to the loss of fatty tissue in the scalp.*


 So basically I see that you are optimistic about one team breaking the barrier and inducing the cells into a hair follicle, but those same follicles might still fall prey to DHT and degrade.
Aren't we limited by that? I mean that is why everyone is excited about Follica because they were trying to find the underlying causes. 

Even if we manage to culture new hair follicles and transplant them it would still mean we would be relaint on Minox and Fin.

----------


## hellouser

> Hi Desmond, glad you you are back and okay. One thing I would like to mention. Dr. Gardner said:
> 
> 
> So basically I see that you are optimistic about one team breaking the barrier and inducing the cells into a hair follicle, but those same follicles might still fall prey to DHT and degrade.
> Aren't we limited by that? I mean that is why everyone is excited about Follica because they were trying to find the underlying causes. 
> 
> Even if we manage to culture new hair follicles and transplant them it would still mean we would be relaint on Minox and Fin.


 This doesn't explain why hair transplants work.

----------


## CAlex

Glad you got back safely Desmond. Hope you enjoyed the trip.

The problem we run into is the trials IMO. All these teams(according to what you've said) are making much more progress than we previously thought. The frustrations come from once a method is being transitioned from theory to trials. 

It seems every single team we know about ends up hitting year or longer setbacks between each phase of trials due to financial issues, poor planning, and so on.

maybe one of these teams does solve this puzzle withing the next 3-4 years but its the trials that MUST follow that take FOREVER and often produce results that are not worth pursuing passed phase 2 and or attract investors to aid in funding the trials.

*In my opinion the minimum we need one of these teams to achieve is along the lines(delivery wise) of histogen. An inject-able treatment. Being able to endlessly produce follicles in a lab is just an HT on steroids. HT'S are garbage IMO. They will NEVER look natural.*  It might help some guys, but in terms of really conquering this nightmare, its just not going to change anything.

hopefully one of these teams is working on an injectable. Its the next best thing aside from some distant cellular treatment.

----------


## hellouser

> Glad you got back safely Desmond. Hope you enjoyed the trip.
> 
> The problem we run into is the trials IMO. All these teams(according to what you've said) are making much more progress than we previously thought. The frustrations come from once a method is being transitioned from theory to trials. 
> 
> It seems every single team we know about ends up hitting year or longer setbacks between each phase of trials due to financial issues, poor planning, and so on.
> 
> maybe one of these teams does solve this puzzle withing the next 3-4 years but its the trials that MUST follow that take FOREVER and often produce results that are not worth pursuing passed phase 2 and or attract investors to aid in funding the trials.
> 
> *In my opinion the minimum we need one of these teams to achieve is along the lines(delivery wise) of histogen. An inject-able treatment. Being able to endlessly produce follicles in a lab is just an HT on steroids. HT'S are garbage IMO. They will NEVER look natural.*  It might help some guys, but in terms of really conquering this nightmare, its just not going to cut it.


 Once a team does crack it, every single last one of us needs to go absolute batshit crazy with pushing a crowdfunding campaign and supply the research team with all the funding they would ever need to roll out the trials in the absolute fastest time possible.

We could start crowdfunding now, but we'd be shooting in the dark. I think what should happen is an organized effort in PLANNING a crowdfunding campaign and having it ready to be proposed to any one of the research teams as a financial boost. The next hair congress is next year in November in Miami, giving us a year and a half to finalize all the details of such a campaign as well as have all the creative materials finished for promoting and marketing our initiative. I'm planning on attending the congress next year, I have every intention of convincing the most suitable team for a joint effort in ending our misery with hair loss FAST.

As it stands, I would only consider a research team to join our effort if they complied to run the trials in a less regulated jurisdiction like Japan for an even faster release; no more of this 'within 5 years' bullshit; let's make it actually happen for once.

----------


## Haircure

I know this may be a long shot, but maybe there is someway we can organize general funds for a hairloss treatment and once we get some decent amount of funding and advertising we can have potential teams to which we can transfer the money to. So we could maybe try and play the investor by using the crowd funding medium. That way the researchers/teams could pitch their ideas to us rather than the alternative.

Besides my crazy idea above, I think if we want a  treatment available faster, maybe we should focus on a treatment that can go into clinical trials the earliest and hope it works out (excluding follica, because at this point we don't have much info at where they stand,and the offer by Cots seems kinda fishy)

----------


## agardner

> Hi Desmond, glad you you are back and okay. One thing I would like to mention. Dr. Gardner said:
> 
> 
> So basically I see that you are optimistic about one team breaking the barrier and inducing the cells into a hair follicle, but those same follicles might still fall prey to DHT and degrade.
> Aren't we limited by that? I mean that is why everyone is excited about Follica because they were trying to find the underlying causes. 
> 
> Even if we manage to culture new hair follicles and transplant them it would still mean we would be relaint on Minox and Fin.


 


> This doesn't explain why hair transplants work.


 Hair transplants use follicles from "resistant" zones and often incorporate tissues from that area as well including fatty tissue.

As it stands our models don't incorporate this supportive tissue and so I'm not sure how well they will fare in a bald scalp. Also since expansion in 2D results in a loss of DP inductivity it is also possible that "resistance" to degradation is also lost. But until the clinical trial using spheroids reports then everything is guesswork.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Hair transplants use follicles from "resistant" zones and often incorporate tissues from that area as well including fatty tissue.
> 
> As it stands our models don't incorporate this supportive tissue and so I'm not sure how well they will fare in a bald scalp. Also since expansion in 2D results in a loss of DP inductivity it is also possible that "resistance" to degradation is also lost. But until the clinical trial using spheroids reports then everything is guesswork.


 Is it possible to culture DP cells in a 2D environment that is also filled with native fat cells, and thus their accompanying chemical signals? I understand that isolating the cell types, culturing them, and bringing them back together gives a window into their individual nature, but perhaps expanding all of them at the same time in the same place, and then putting the whole mix into hanging drops would maintain a more steady level of chemical correspondence and make the cells feel less "lost".  why not expand DP, DS, and epithelial cells all together in the same place and then put them in a cozy environment together  :Smile:  There is clearly an immediate disconnect from feeling at home when DP cells are isolated, and maybe there's no workaround to a constant maintenance of the chemical "chatter" that goes on between all the cell types. Instead of trying to restore gene expression, why not focus more on trying to maintain it even in the 2D expansion?  Seems like once something is forgotten by the cell, it might be futile to try to teach it again.

----------


## agardner

> Is it possible to culture DP cells in a 2D environment that is also filled with native fat cells, and thus their accompanying chemical signals? I understand that isolating the cell types, culturing them, and bringing them back together gives a window into their individual nature, but perhaps expanding all of them at the same time in the same place, and then putting the whole mix into hanging drops would maintain a more steady level of chemical correspondence and make the cells feel less "lost".  why not expand DP, DS, and epithelial cells all together in the same place and then put them in a cozy environment together  There is clearly an immediate disconnect from feeling at home when DP cells are isolated, and maybe there's no workaround to a constant maintenance of the chemical "chatter" that goes on between all the cell types. Instead of trying to restore gene expression, why not focus more on trying to maintain it even in the 2D expansion?  Seems like once something is forgotten by the cell, it might be futile to try to teach it again.


 It is very difficult to expand cells in culture together, for example any sort of fatty tissue present in a 2D culture strongly inhibits proliferation of dermal (DP, DS and DF) or epidermal (keratinocytes and outer root sheath) cells. Dermal/epidermal co-cultures are more feasible and it's something we're working with before making the cells into 3D models.

In 3D these co-cultures are fine as none of the cells are proliferating so we can control the ratios of cells to keep them happier.

----------


## Aik82

> Once a team does crack it, every single last one of us needs to go absolute batshit crazy with pushing a crowdfunding campaign and supply the research team with all the funding they would ever need to roll out the trials in the absolute fastest time possible.
> 
> We could start crowdfunding now, but we'd be shooting in the dark. I think what should happen is an organized effort in PLANNING a crowdfunding campaign and having it ready to be proposed to any one of the research teams as a financial boost. The next hair congress is next year in November in Miami, giving us a year and a half to finalize all the details of such a campaign as well as have all the creative materials finished for promoting and marketing our initiative. I'm planning on attending the congress next year, I have every intention of convincing the most suitable team for a joint effort in ending our misery with hair loss FAST.
> 
> As it stands, I would only consider a research team to join our effort if they complied to run the trials in a less regulated jurisdiction like Japan for an even faster release; no more of this 'within 5 years' bullshit; let's make it actually happen for once.


 I agree with you Hellouser.

----------


## Tomb10

During these presentations, you will notice that many of them are getting great results in terms of restoring hair inductivity in the early passages of DP culturing. Not so much in the latter passages. SO I actually asked them if that is a problem and would they have enough DP produced with these early passages to completely restore a bald scalp. The answer was: "the number of DP cells cultured in these early passages is sufficient to restore hairs on a scalp who is above NW6 and even maybe NW7!" 


Desmond, what do you mean with passages?

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, 

Here's Dr Rei Ogawa's presentation  :Smile:  A fascinating lecture but a little bit graphic. If you couldnt put up with it just skip ahead. The first half of his presentation is just talking about what Mechanotherapy is! The second half is about how it would be effective in hair regeneration! I really liked this presentation..it was way out from the left field and if he is onto something it may become available way sooner than other therapies as medical devices do not undergo a 3 phase trial like medicines do which is great for us  :Smile:  

Enjoy and please leave feedback  :Wink:

----------


## Desmond84

> During these presentations, you will notice that many of them are getting great results in terms of restoring hair inductivity in the early passages of DP culturing. Not so much in the latter passages. SO I actually asked them if that is a problem and would they have enough DP produced with these early passages to completely restore a bald scalp. The answer was: "the number of DP cells cultured in these early passages is sufficient to restore hairs on a scalp who is above NW6 and even maybe NW7!" 
> 
> 
> Desmond, what do you mean with passages?


 From what I remember from Uni days I'm pretty sure first passage is when your original cells divide so many times that you have to transfer some of them to a new plate to continue cell culture. So say we have 20 DP cells on a plate. After a fews days and the right conditions we have 60 DP cells and the plate is full. You then have to grab most of these cells and transfer them to a new plate and restart the division process. The cells that just got transferred to a new plate are known as Passage 1. And every time you do this again, it is called passage 2, 3 and so on...

As you go down the passages (e.g. 3, 4, 5) you start losing more and more properties of the original cell lines, kind of like photocopying the photocopy over and over...

So usually the best passages are the second and third. Now what I was referring to was that they seem to be able to culture sufficient cells in the first few passages (passage 2, 3, 4) to cover the entire balding area, which is magnificent  :Smile:

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Hey guys, 
> 
> Here's Dr Rei Ogawa's presentation  A fascinating lecture but a little bit graphic. If you couldnt put up with it just skip ahead. The first half of his presentation is just talking about what Mechanotherapy is! The second half is about how it would be effective in hair regeneration! I really liked this presentation..it was way out from the left field and if he is onto something it may become available way sooner than other therapies as medical devices do not undergo a 3 phase trial like medicines do which is great for us  
> 
> Enjoy and please leave feedback


 Dr. Rei Ogawa mentioned that a tightly stretched scalp inhibits fat cell production.  Most likely due to the effect of compression, like stretching a sheet of foam rubber or saran wrap downward over a mannequin head. 

Observation:
"The layer of fat at the base of the skin, known as subcutaneous adipose tissue or “baby fat”, diminishes with age. Researchers have noted that fat accumulates around the healthy follicles that vigorously grow hair. In contrast, they observed a lack of fat around dormant follicles. They postulate that these fat cells serve a supportive function for the hair follicle. Conditions that inhibit hair growth, such as chemotherapy and starvation, also decrease the subcutaneous fat layer (Stenn et al 1991)."

IMO, DHT causes a whole cascade of issues, all contributing to miniaturization of susceptible hairs.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hellouser

> Dr. Rei Ogawa mentioned that a tightly stretched scalp inhibits fat cell production.  Most likely due to the effect of compression, like stretching a sheet of foam rubber or saran wrap downward over a mannequin head. 
> 
> Observation:
> "The layer of fat at the base of the skin, known as subcutaneous adipose tissue or baby fat, diminishes with age. Researchers have noted that fat accumulates around the healthy follicles that vigorously grow hair. In contrast, they observed a lack of fat around dormant follicles. They postulate that these fat cells serve a supportive function for the hair follicle. Conditions that inhibit hair growth, such as chemotherapy and starvation, also decrease the subcutaneous fat layer (Stenn et al 1991)."
> 
> IMO, DHT causes a whole cascade of issues, all contributing to miniaturization of susceptible hairs.


 Is it possible to transfer fat cells by injection from one area of the body into the scalp?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Is it possible to transfer fat cells by injection from one area of the body into the scalp?


 Some variation of fat therapy may play a future role in improving hair growth:

Yale study

Some claim that derma rolled copper peptides improve the fatty layer.


35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## sdsurfin

Hey Des, post Dr. Lindner's next? I think we're all really keen to see the stem cell related talks.
would love to see that burning scalp one too, I wouldn't even mind hair loss so much if it wasn't itchy all the time.

----------


## nameless

> Some variation of fat therapy may play a future role in improving hair growth:
> 
> Yale study
> 
> Some claim that derma rolled copper peptides improve the fatty layer.
> 
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> forhair.com
> ...


 
Who claims that derm-rolled copper peptides improve fatty layer?
I ask because Pilox claims to put copper (and zinc) ions into the scalp by way of some kind of electrically charged roller blades but the blades dont actually cut through the skin I' m told.

----------


## hellouser

> Some variation of fat therapy may play a future role in improving hair growth:
> 
> Yale study
> 
> Some claim that derma rolled copper peptides improve the fatty layer


 Hmmm....

What if part of the reason why follicles did NOT grow on the scalp in balding areas when Aderans tried it or during Replicels phase I trials is due to this?

Perhaps if they injected the cells into areas where fatty tissue exists we could see growth of new follicles and use those to transplant into balding areas along WITH the fatty tissue?

But having said that, is the fatty tissue absolutely necessary?

----------


## joachim

i'm wondering why this "fat tissue" problem came up so late. would that really mean that if one of the researchers is able to induce new follicles then the results would highly depend on the fat tissue? what would happen without fat tissue? is there a chance that the induced or lab-grown implanted follicle can still survive for about some years? (let's say at least 5 years)

because if a bald scalp really lacks a lot of fat tissue (which seems to be the case from what i can read from the latest talks), then we have soms serious problems here. then the cure is really 3 decades away.

would injecting fat cells into the scalp even be possible? would the fat stay there for years?

----------


## TheSwingingGate

Fat grafting (transfers) are already very common in Cosmetic Surgery. Hopefully it would be a similar procedure for the scalp.

----------


## hellouser

> i'm wondering why this "fat tissue" problem came up so late. would that really mean that if one of the researchers is able to induce new follicles then the results would highly depend on the fat tissue? what would happen without fat tissue? is there a chance that the induced or lab-grown implanted follicle can still survive for about some years? (let's say at least 5 years)
> 
> because if a bald scalp really lacks a lot of fat tissue (which seems to be the case from what i can read from the latest talks), then we have soms serious problems here. then the cure is really 3 decades away.
> 
> would injecting fat cells into the scalp even be possible? would the fat stay there for years?


 You know... it very well might pose a giant shitstorm of a problem.

Remember Aderans' results? Here's a before/after shot:



Would these poor results around ONLY the edge of existing follicles be due to the fact that fatty tissue was still there? Did they even try to inject their cells into areas where fatty tissue was present? Consider this:

Move all/most follicles from sides/back of head to top with fatty tissue and inject entire back/side areas with DP cells (assuming they'll grow there).

However.. if the fatty tissue is still connected to the follicle when being transplanted... does it stick to it permanently after being implanted?

----------


## hellouser

> Fat grafting (transfers) are already very common in Cosmetic Surgery. Hopefully it would be a similar procedure for the scalp.


 Questions!

1) Is fat grafting expensive?
2) Would injecting fat grafts into the scalp before injecting DP/DSC or other follicle stem cells be beneficial?
3) Has anyone injected fat grafts into the scalp while on Fin or Minox? Perhaps growth factors from Histogen would help?
4) When harvested and if implanted into the scalp, how would it be affected by weight loss programs? Would the fat be burned off?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> i'm wondering why this "fat tissue" problem came up so late. would that really mean that if one of the researchers is able to induce new follicles then the results would highly depend on the fat tissue? what would happen without fat tissue? is there a chance that the induced or lab-grown implanted follicle can still survive for about some years? (let's say at least 5 years)
> 
> because if a bald scalp really lacks a lot of fat tissue (which seems to be the case from what i can read from the latest talks), then we have soms serious problems here. then the cure is really 3 decades away.
> 
> would injecting fat cells into the scalp even be possible? would the fat stay there for years?


 I think fat is a contributing factor but consider that hair follicles are transplanted from the back and sides of the head to slick bald areas on top of the head.  Generally the hair has similar longevity transplanted to the bald scalp as it would have in its original location.  

Dr. Cole and one other hair transplant doctor I'm aware of are beginning to use a new regenerative product called AmnioFix.  It may replace PRP and possibly even ACell.  Great progress is being made in nearly every area of medicine.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hellouser

I just called a clinic and asked about fat grafting for the entire face (under eyes, cheeks and chin) and the entire procedure lasts about 2 hours and costs about $4,900 at the following locale http://www.myplasticsurgerytoronto.com/

Seeing how many of us are willing to spend 10+ thousands of dollars on hair restoration, this wouldn't really be that big of a dent for us. But it really does raise an interesting topic.

----------


## TheSwingingGate

Hell,

I don't have the answer to your questions.
You raise a particularly interesting question in #4.
In my years of body fat lowering/raising and working out, it makes me wonder if I exacerbated hair loss with either androgen raising or body fat lowering.

Of course, every time I think this way, I think of Jay Cutler who has more hair than I did at 12 years old, and is multi time Mr. Olympia!

----------


## hellouser

> Hell,
> 
> I don't have the answer to your questions.
> You raise a particularly interesting question in #4.
> In my years of body fat lowering/raising and working out, it makes me wonder if I exacerbated hair loss with either androgen raising or body fat lowering.
> 
> Of course, every time I think this way, I think of Jay Cutler who has more hair than I did at 12 years old, and is multi time Mr. Olympia!


 On the flip side, I dont work out at all and have lost a significant amount of hair. What's odd is that I used to play a lot of basketball in my teens but my 20s I was completely inactive.

----------


## nameless

> Hmmm....
> 
> What if part of the reason why follicles did NOT grow on the scalp in balding areas when Aderans tried it or during Replicels phase I trials is due to this?
> 
> Perhaps if they injected the cells into areas where fatty tissue exists we could see growth of new follicles and use those to transplant into balding areas along WITH the fatty tissue?
> 
> But having said that, is the fatty tissue absolutely necessary?


 Hellouser one thing I will tell you is that these fat cells contain important growth factors that could and may stimulate hair growth. Also, I think that inside these fat cells there is no oxygen and if I'm right about that then that would mean that these growth factors inside of fat cells are being produced in an environment that does not have oxygen, just like the histogen growth factors.

----------


## joachim

i think aderans problem was simply because of their 2D culturing. a decade ago when they started their theories they probably didn't have that knowledge about inductivity etc.
and then finally they had to give up when they realized their method leads to nowhere.
by the way desmond mentioned he found out why aderans failed but didn't post it yet.

can you give us the answer desmond? is it only because of the 2D culturing?

----------


## joachim

> I just called a clinic and asked about fat grafting for the entire face (under eyes, cheeks and chin) and the entire procedure lasts about 2 hours and costs about $4,900 at the following locale http://www.myplasticsurgerytoronto.com/
> 
> Seeing how many of us are willing to spend 10+ thousands of dollars on hair restoration, this wouldn't really be that big of a dent for us. But it really does raise an interesting topic.


 the question is if the fat injections even would help us NOW or is it ok do just do it then when hair multiplication is ready

----------


## hellouser

> the question is if the fat injections even would help us NOW or is it ok do just do it then when hair multiplication is ready


 I actually asked if they ever did injections of fat grafts onto the scalp and the woman on the phone said no. However, I'll send in an email and ask the clinic to see what they say about this.

Perhaps if a hair transplant is done by moving follicles ALONG with fatty tissue, this would create a better environment for stem cells to flourish and grow into fully functioning follicles by using the surround fatty tissue as support?

It'd be interesting to see what could happen with fat grafting alone and if it were to improve with growth factor injections from Histogen to revive old miniaturized follicles.... or perhaps fat grafting + replicel when it comes time.

----------


## sdsurfin

I was feeling hopeful about all this new research until I saw this:

http://news.bioscholar.com/2010/12/a...n-5-years.html

Lauster saying that he'd have a cure in 5 years, back in 2010.  


It's great that people like desmond are optimistic as a general mode of being, but let's face it, we're gonna spend our youth balding.  there's no difference between this and cancer research, a lot of great findings can be made, but they are going to keep telling us the same story every five years.  We are still in the dark ages of medicine and nothing is gonna change that or speed up time.  All this "cured in 10 years" talk means nothing if they don't actually develop a working protocol in the next 3 years or so, and I really don't see that happening.  They are still barely able to grow a weak pseudo hair in a mouse or a foreskin- to me it seems crazy to think that it'll take anything less than decades to even get those issues straight. Xu said he can "hopefully" make a whole follicle in the next ten years. then another ten to test it? Ugh, whatever, by that time I'll be 50 and won't give a damn.  Like Cots said, it took rogaine 8 years just to get the foam out vs. liquid minox.  I'm down to help crowdfund or whatever, but the way I see it I'm doing it for my future grandkids  :Smile:

----------


## sascha

Actually sdsurfin:
http://www.alopezie.de/news/haarfoll...ersitat-berlin 
Dr. Lindner says if they can follow their protocoll tightly all the questions will be answered in 5 years and THAN the 5 years of commercialization process begin my pessimistic friend  :Smile:

----------


## sdsurfin

> Actually sdsurfin:
> http://www.alopezie.de/news/haarfoll...ersitat-berlin 
> Dr. Lindner says if they can follow their protocoll tightly all the questions will be answered in 5 years and THAN the 5 years of commercialization process begin my pessimistic friend


 I can't read german.  tried hitting the "english" button on the site but I couldnt find the article again.  where was it published?  If they said that in 2010 then it means that they have one more year to answer all the questions. Doesn't seem like they are even close to keeping with that timeline.

----------


## sascha

> I can't read german.  tried hitting the "english" button on the site but I couldnt find the article again.  where was it published?  If they said that in 2010 then it means that they have one more year to answer all the questions. Doesn't seem like they are even close to keeping with that timeline.


 Ah sorry mate. I think this article was written by an admin of the "alopecia.de" forum, like some articles written by "the bald truth" guys. I can´t find a date either.
The 2 last questions are regarding a timeline and cost.
As I said: he thinks 5 years to clear things up and 5 years for approval.
Cost should be very high at the beginning but decrease with time.
Most interesting passage is question 4 (4th line that is written bold):
"how far advanced are you? does it work in animals?"
Answer: preclinical studies with animals and clinical studies with humans can be attempted after raising funds. They are confinced that their method is good enough, because they were able to create hair shafts in vitro. He points out that in vitro is a big achievement, because there you do not have sufficient support by nervs and blood and still the formation of such micro-follicels was successful.

----------


## kobefan234

> I was feeling hopeful about all this new research until I saw this:
> 
> http://news.bioscholar.com/2010/12/a...n-5-years.html
> 
> Lauster saying that he'd have a cure in 5 years, back in 2010.  
> 
> 
> It's great that people like desmond are optimistic as a general mode of being, but let's face it, we're gonna spend our youth balding.  there's no difference between this and cancer research, a lot of great findings can be made, but they are going to keep telling us the same story every five years.  We are still in the dark ages of medicine and nothing is gonna change that or speed up time.  All this "cured in 10 years" talk means nothing if they don't actually develop a working protocol in the next 3 years or so, and I really don't see that happening.  They are still barely able to grow a weak pseudo hair in a mouse or a foreskin- to me it seems crazy to think that it'll take anything less than decades to even get those issues straight. Xu said he can "hopefully" make a whole follicle in the next ten years. then another ten to test it? Ugh, whatever, by that time I'll be 50 and won't give a damn.  Like Cots said, it took rogaine 8 years just to get the foam out vs. liquid minox.  I'm down to help crowdfund or whatever, but the way I see it I'm doing it for my future grandkids


 my prediction is 2036.

----------


## David7

2020 is the year of cure and in 2015+ better treatments, note that as time goes on the faster technology advance's.. :Wink:

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> 2020 is the year of cure and in 2015+ better treatments, note that as time goes on the faster technology advance's..


 2023 - 2028

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## Duke

> 2023 - 2028


 3023 - 3028

----------


## Scientalk56

> 2020 is the year of cure and in 2015+ better treatments, note that as time goes on the faster technology advance's..


 lol

----------


## joachim

man, i want to see the presentation of dr. lindner / dr. atac now =)
and also i'm eager to hear desmond's summary as soon as he gets the green light from them. we need to know if the bioreactor story is THE cure or not.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> 3023 - 3028


 The baldness cure will arrive before the hover converters.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## Armandein

> The baldness cure will arrive before the hover converters.


 Clearly .... , I am with you

----------


## Sogeking

This is interesting:

http://phys.org/news/2014-05-lab-stem-cells-key.html

----------


## Artista

Yes it is

----------


## kobefan234

> 3023 - 3028


 This.

----------


## bananana

Yeah right, 1000 years.

Did you hear they *TELEPORTED* a few atoms yesterday at a distance of 3 meters? 

Baldness is history in 3 years for <NW3's and 8 years for NW7.
I bet my left ball on it.

----------


## splitting hairs

Desmond, any idea when you will be able to upload the burning scalp syndrome presentation?? This is of particular interest as I have suffered with these symptoms for a number of years.

Thanks

----------


## Thinning@30

> Desmond, any idea when you will be able to upload the burning scalp syndrome presentation?? This is of particular interest as I have suffered with these symptoms for a number of years.
> 
> Thanks


 I am also interested in the Burning Scalp Syndrome presentation.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> This is interesting:
> 
> http://phys.org/news/2014-05-lab-stem-cells-key.html


 Progress is moving forward at a decent pace in nearly all areas of regenerative research. Life is truly a miracle.  The un knows are humbling.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## Scientalk56

since i can't read all the posts in this thread, i wanna ask a silly question:

Is there anything that could be out soon in 2015/2016 as a treatment for baldness?

or is it just Forever Five years drug thing?

----------


## Xoxo

Wouldn't it be better to make a new thread for each presentation? (Maybe with the headline containing the movie icon and a reference to the WCHR)

The 63 pages of this thread are kind of unhandy and confusing.

----------


## hellouser

> Wouldn't it be better to make a new thread for each presentation? (Maybe with the headline containing the movie icon and a reference to the WCHR)
> 
> The 63 pages of this thread are kind of unhandy and confusing.


 Another reason why editing posts should be permitted.... if not for all then at least the thread starter ONLY for the first post to keep things organized. Otherwise its as big of a mess as it is now.

----------


## hellouser

Looks like Desmond posted a new video!

*Elaine Chew: Transcriptosome differences between Balding and Non-Balding DP Cells*

Link:

----------


## Thinning87

> Looks like Desmond posted a new video!
> 
> *Elaine Chew: Transcriptosome differences between Balding and Non-Balding DP Cells*
> 
> Link:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEbLm_cgJKI


 Just watched it... Ain't that great unless I'm missing something? Seems to sort of explain why minoxidil might work? No hint for a potential use of this knowledge toward a cure, am I wrong?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Just watched it... Ain't that great unless I'm missing something? Seems to sort of explain why minoxidil might work? No hint for a potential use of this knowledge toward a cure, am I wrong?


 Every little bit helps:

"Mechanical stimulation:
Mechanical stimulation of angiogenesis is not well characterized. There is a significant amount of controversy with regard to shear stress acting on capillaries to cause angiogenesis, although current knowledge suggests that increased muscle contractions may increase angiogenesis. This may be due to an increase in the production of nitric oxide during exercise. Nitric oxide results in vasodilation of blood vessels."

Resistance scalp exercises can't hurt.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## Thinning87

> Every little bit helps:
> 
> "Mechanical stimulation:
> Mechanical stimulation of angiogenesis is not well characterized. There is a significant amount of controversy with regard to shear stress acting on capillaries to cause angiogenesis, although current knowledge suggests that increased muscle contractions may increase angiogenesis. This may be due to an increase in the production of nitric oxide during exercise. Nitric oxide results in vasodilation of blood vessels."
> 
> Resistance scalp exercises can't hurt.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> forhair.com
> ...


 What does that imply

----------


## Swooping

> Looks like Desmond posted a new video!
> 
> *Elaine Chew: Transcriptosome differences between Balding and Non-Balding DP Cells*
> 
> Link:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEbLm_cgJKI


 Man I do feel like that was a pretty straightforward and not interesting presentation at all? Especially the link with minoxidil (vascularization >  vegf) come on, could have been more in depth! Keep posting them desmond, gj!

----------


## David7

New video.

----------


## Thinning87

sounds like a pretty good presentation but can someone explain what the heck he's saying

----------


## David7

2 new video's , check Desmond's channel  :Smile: .
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJn...bGaoOWFS6kRxDQ

----------


## sdsurfin

sigh, these presentations are depressing. There is still so much they have no idea about, and it doesn't seem like anyone is even close to making a new therapy.  I really hope the stem cell guys crack the inductivity issues soon, because short of making brand new follicles, I don't think anyone is going to figure out or start treating the pathways that cause baldness.  It's crazy that blocking androgen production is so effective for baldness prevention, but none of these downstream pathways are yielding any good results. I don't think anyone is ever going to reverse complete baldness without actually implanting new follicles. the whole wounding thing is a joke, it's so far behind what people what lauster and gardner are doing, who the hell would want to figure out how to initiate a new follicle from wounding when you can just make a new one in vitro? I'm guessing this is why follica is having funding issues.  

Let's keep our fingers crossed that these regeneration teams pull something amazing in the next two years, i think if they can make new follicles then things like histogen and replicel will be very effective as a supplemental treatment.  It would be really nice if we had something other than ****ing propecia right now, it really sucks that no one has pushed a safe anti androgen through, because I think once the scalp gets too bald, i think it's going to be very difficult to make good hair. I think hair doctors are assholes for promoting propecia as a safe drug, it's so obviously far from that.

----------


## sdsurfin

also desmond, where's the team germany presentation?  that's really the only one I'm interested in, except for maybe garza's.  Curing baldness chemically looks like a pretty insurmountable task if we don't just use something lke propecia which basically takes an axe to your vital pathways. let's get someone 3D printing new follicles asap, i think once they make new inductive hair germs or new whole follicles, then adapting their environment will be a much easier way to go.

----------


## Thinning87

> sigh, these presentations are depressing. There is still so much they have no idea about, and it doesn't seem like anyone is even close to making a new therapy.  I really hope the stem cell guys crack the inductivity issues soon, because short of making brand new follicles, I don't think anyone is going to figure out or start treating the pathways that cause baldness.  It's crazy that blocking androgen production is so effective for baldness prevention, but none of these downstream pathways are yielding any good results. I don't think anyone is ever going to reverse complete baldness without actually implanting new follicles. the whole wounding thing is a joke, it's so far behind what people what lauster and gardner are doing, who the hell would want to figure out how to initiate a new follicle from wounding when you can just make a new one in vitro? I'm guessing this is why follica is having funding issues.  
> 
> Let's keep our fingers crossed that these regeneration teams pull something amazing in the next two years, i think if they can make new follicles then things like histogen and replicel will be very effective as a supplemental treatment.  It would be really nice if we had something other than ****ing propecia right now, it really sucks that no one has pushed a safe anti androgen through, because I think once the scalp gets too bald, i think it's going to be very difficult to make good hair. I think hair doctors are assholes for promoting propecia as a safe drug, it's so obviously far from that.


 Well, don't you think the researchers developing these methods would take these factors in consideration? They must know it's hard to work with all these pathways.

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys can someone help me lol..

How do you embed a YouTube video in your post?

----------


## hellouser

Desmond... you'll need to look at the youtube video's ID number;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=*TN5H01HGaVI*

Then wrap it around like so:



```

[youtube2]TN5H01HGaVI[/youtube2] 


```

 And you'll get this:

----------


## artika

Hey Desmond,

First of all, thanks for the amazing work you have done!

Secondly, what's the situation with the Dr Lindner/ Beren Atac interview?
You maybe said that's the most promising, so when do you think you will be able to post that?

Thanks for everything! :Smile:

----------


## hiko

> sigh, these presentations are depressing. There is still so much they have no idea about, and it doesn't seem like anyone is even close to making a new therapy.  I really hope the stem cell guys crack the inductivity issues soon, because short of making brand new follicles, I don't think anyone is going to figure out or start treating the pathways that cause baldness.  It's crazy that blocking androgen production is so effective for baldness prevention, but none of these downstream pathways are yielding any good results. I don't think anyone is ever going to reverse complete baldness without actually implanting new follicles. the whole wounding thing is a joke, it's so far behind what people what lauster and gardner are doing, who the hell would want to figure out how to initiate a new follicle from wounding when you can just make a new one in vitro? I'm guessing this is why follica is having funding issues.  
> 
> Let's keep our fingers crossed that these regeneration teams pull something amazing in the next two years, i think if they can make new follicles then things like histogen and replicel will be very effective as a supplemental treatment.  It would be really nice if we had something other than ****ing propecia right now, it really sucks that no one has pushed a safe anti androgen through, because I think once the scalp gets too bald, i think it's going to be very difficult to make good hair. I think hair doctors are assholes for promoting propecia as a safe drug, it's so obviously far from that.


 Histogen and CB have a good chance of coming out in a few years.  I think Histogen will give really good results.  Just check out the results from the adipose derived stem cell paper, which is a very similar therapy.  

Replicel I'm 50/50 about.  But their results must have been pretty good for Shisheido to fund them.

I don't know what to make of Follica since what Cots said just now is at odds with what the company said last year (that they were making substantial new hairs in humans).  The optimist in me says that Cots was just playing coy.

Creating hair follicles in vitro and then implanting them onto the scalp seems like a really backasswards way of doing things, but unfortunately that seems to be the aim of most research right now.  I'm not sure why you'd want that.  It's not even hair restoration, but another kind of hair transplant.  The results will never look natural and will depend on surgeon skill, etc.

TL;DR: the point is, if you value your hair, jump on treatments now, because new therapies are years away at best.  It's why I jumped on Dut 7 months ago after noticing hairline thinning and some recession.  You can't wait until you lose a lot of hair and then go on treatments.  Starting Fin or Dut early gives the best chance at regrowth and thickening.

----------


## nameless

> Histogen and CB have a good chance of coming out in a few years.  I think Histogen will give really good results.  Just check out the results from the adipose derived stem cell paper, which is a very similar therapy.  
> 
> Replicel I'm 50/50 about.  But their results must have been pretty good for Shisheido to fund them.
> 
> I don't know what to make of Follica since what Cots said just now is at odds with what the company said last year (that they were making substantial new hairs in humans).  The optimist in me says that Cots was just playing coy.
> 
> *Creating hair follicles in vitro and then implanting them onto the scalp seems like a really backasswards way of doing things, but unfortunately that seems to be the aim of most research right now.  I'm not sure why you'd want that.  It's not even hair restoration, but another kind of hair transplant.  The results will never look natural and will depend on surgeon skill, etc.


 
* I also think that Histogen might turn out to be a great treatment if you do follow up treatments every few weeks until you get your hair back and then maybe once every 3 months or so to preserve it. 

* I also don't know what to make of Replicel and I wonder why Shisheido funded them if they haven't made progress over their first trial. I think they must have made some progress or else they would have withered away like Aderans. 

* I also don't know what to make of Follica. They've got a treatment that would only take a few years to get to market but it won't cure everyone. But it's significantly better than the minox + propecia regimen that's available now. I think that if they want to make money in hair growth they should bring this treatment to market asap because other scientific groups will be bringing total cures to market in about 7 years or so, and then Follica's plans to make money by curing hair loss will be lost. If they bring their treatment to market asap then they could retire minox and propecia, and take over the hair growth market for themselves for the next 7 years or so. And that market would be a lot bigger than it is now since everyone knows that minox + propecia profits are hindered by poor efficacy efficacy and disconcerting side effects. If Follica really has a better treatment that they could get to market in a year or two then they could make greater profits because Follica would get more customers since their treatment works better.

----------


## David7

New videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJn...bGaoOWFS6kRxDQ

----------


## Thinning87

it says channel does not exist

----------


## Swooping

> it says channel does not exist


 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJn...bGaoOWFS6kRxDQ

----------


## Swooping

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0klARAxOYiI

Culprit of AGA miniaturization indeed sir, good job. I totally share his hypothesis.

* Androgens > AR > ROS/Oxidative stress* > P53??? etc. > > >
                                > > .....

http://www.plosone.org/article/info&#37;...l.pone.0031052 (many more on it though, also on hair follicle level)

----------


## David7

> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJn...bGaoOWFS6kRxDQ


 Thanks  :Smile:

----------


## Thinning87

Any thoughts on the other presentation?? I mean it seems like the Koreans are also trying wounding and growth factors (or taking away inhibitors)

I didn't really understand a lot 

PS notice Cots asking questions  :Smile:

----------


## nameless

> Any thoughts on the other presentation?? I mean it seems like the Koreans are also trying wounding and growth factors (or taking away inhibitors)
> 
> I didn't really understand a lot 
> 
> PS notice Cots asking questions


 Thinning if you mean the Koreans who are using adipose stem cell proteins and growth factors, I think that they are using growth factors but they aren't taking away inhibitors. And if you are talking about the scientists involved with adipose stem cells growth factors and proteins I don't think that they're using wounding. 

Which Korean group are you referring to?

----------


## David7

Yes, can someone tell us whats happening ?I mean should we get our hopes up? I also noticed that theres a huge interest loss
 in this thread.

----------


## Thinning87

> Thinning if you mean the Koreans who are using adipose stem cell proteins and growth factors, I think that they are using growth factors but they aren't taking away inhibitors. And if you are talking about the scientists involved with adipose stem cells growth factors and proteins I don't think that they're using wounding. 
> 
> Which Korean group are you referring to?


 I don't know I couldn't really understand what the presenter was sayin g, but I'm referring to the new presentation that was posted. Not the one by the British guy but the one from the Korean guy. Seems early stage stuff though I mean they are out of a university lab

----------


## hgs1989

I remember desmond said cotseralis never mentioned anything about wounding, but watching the second presentation, it was all about wounding. anyhow, did desmond post his conversation with jahoda? the one he said he will post after emailing them about the content.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Creating hair follicles in vitro and then implanting them onto the scalp seems like a really backasswards way of doing things, but unfortunately that seems to be the aim of most research right now.


 The ultimate goal in my view, is to somehow stimulate DHT resistant hair growth in bald areas in a way similar to how a newborn baby develops hair. During human development, the lanugo grows on fetuses as a normal part of gestation.  It's usually shed and replaced by vellus hair at about 33 - 36 weeks of gestational age.

Another approach is surgical and one of treating the FUE donor area with a (future) refined regenerative agent so that extracted follicles moved to the balding areas grow back in their original extraction sites with 95 - 100% reliability.

ACell stimulates a degree of follicle regeneration.  At this point in time, it benefits the patient by improving donor density post-op.

ACell is an extracellular matrix product made from pig's bladder.  When ACell was cleared by the FDA for sale in the US to physicians, it was cleared as a medical device.  In other words, it was viewed as a "scaffolding"  that maintains cell position kind of like how 2x4 studs hold the siding and sheetrock in place.  Extracellular matrix exists between all soft tissue cells in the body.  It has later been verified that extracellular matrix serves as a cell communication medium in addition to being a sort of scaffolding.  Dr. Cole developed a minimal depth FUE extraction method where the follicle is scored about half way down.  The soft tissue below allows the scored follicles to be eased out.  This leaves stem cells behind.  The ACell powder mixed with hyaluronic acid creates a gel that when placed in the extraction sites creates a scaffolding as well as restores a degree of cell communication.  Because of the improved cell communication, the body has a better idea what used to be at the extraction site and the ACell gel promotes tissue remodeling.  When the body doesn't know what used to be at an injury site, the body calls on its generic "filler" known as scar tissue.

Dr. Cole is currently moving tissue remodeling forward in his practice with a new medical product called AmnioFix. 

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## Artista

Chuck hi my friend-that was a great 'lay-mens' way of explaining the use of Acell in this case!  Acell is still progressing in all types of usages.

----------


## clandestine

> I mean should we get our hopes up?


 It would be entirey foolish to do so.

Your call, though.

----------


## joachim

> The ultimate goal in my view, is to somehow stimulate DHT resistant hair growth in bald areas in a way similar to how a newborn baby develops hair. During human development, the lanugo grows on fetuses as a normal part of gestation.  It's usually shed and replaced by vellus hair at about 33 - 36 weeks of gestational age.
> 
> Another approach is surgical and one of treating the FUE donor area with a (future) refined regenerative agent so that extracted follicles moved to the balding areas grow back in their original extraction sites with 95 - 100% reliability.
> 
> ACell stimulates a degree of follicle regeneration.  At this point in time, it benefits the patient by improving donor density post-op.
> 
> ACell is an extracellular matrix product made from pig's bladder.  When ACell was cleared by the FDA for sale in the US to physicians, it was cleared as a medical device.  In other words, it was viewed as a "scaffolding"  that maintains cell position kind of like how 2x4 studs hold the siding and sheetrock in place.  Extracellular matrix exists between all soft tissue cells in the body.  It has later been verified that extracellular matrix serves as a cell communication medium in addition to being a sort of scaffolding.  Dr. Cole developed a minimal depth FUE extraction method where the follicle is scored about half way down.  The soft tissue below allows the scored follicles to be eased out.  This leaves stem cells behind.  The ACell powder mixed with hyaluronic acid creates a gel that when placed in the extraction sites creates a scaffolding as well as restores a degree of cell communication.  Because of the improved cell communication, the body has a better idea what used to be at the extraction site and the ACell gel promotes tissue remodeling.  When the body doesn't know what used to be at an injury site, the body calls on its generic "filler" known as scar tissue.
> 
> Dr. Cole is currently moving tissue remodeling forward in his practice with a new medical product called AmnioFix. 
> ...


 did dr. Cole see some donor regeneration so far? if yes, was it documented? how many percent are realistic today? 3 to 5 % maybe? and how does that affect the recipient site? still the same survival rate with such extraction technique?

----------


## Thinning87

> Chuck hi my friend-that was a great 'lay-mens' way of explaining the use of Acell in this case!  Acell is still progressing in all types of usages.


 just seems like a commercial for his employer to me... every comment in every thread is an opportunity to talk about Dr. Cole

----------


## hellouser

> just seems like a commercial for his employer to me... every comment in every thread is an opportunity to talk about Dr. Cole


 It's paid advertising for Dr. Cole. One of Spencer Kobren's methods of income.

----------


## joachim

by the way where is desmond all the time? there's still so much to discuss and clarify. and from where the hell do we find out how far the chinese are with the DP culturing? did they achieve 100% gene expression or not? if it turns out that they are ahead of jahoda/gardner and also taiwan in terms of DP gene expression, this changes things dramatically.
currently the 100% goal is what jahoda/gardner are trying to achieve. this will be their main focus for the next 1,2,3 years or even longer. but if there is really someone out there in the world who cracked the code already, then let's not waste some more years on that.

----------


## nameless

> I remember desmond said cotseralis never mentioned anything about wounding, but watching the second presentation, it was all about wounding. anyhow, did desmond post his conversation with jahoda? the one he said he will post after emailing them about the content.


 
I'm at work for another 6 hours so I can't check out that 2nd presentation. Are you talking about a 2nd presentation by Cotseralis? Does it involve wounding? What does it say about wounding?

----------


## hellouser

New video:

Dr Claire Higgins: Reprogramming Human DP Cells by Spheroid Culture Restores Hair Inductivity 



From her presentation she showed this, a microscopic image of scalp skin:



Does anyone know how thick the epidermis, dermis and the dermal adipose tissue layers are for BALDING scalps? Is the dermal adipose tissue thinner in balding scalp? I ask in regards to fat grafting and similarly to what swooping is looking into with adipose derived cell injections.

----------


## walrus

> just seems like a commercial for his employer to me... every comment in every thread is an opportunity to talk about Dr. Cole


 Agreed. Always trying to link ACell to areas it is not relevant with far out theories lacking evidence.

----------


## imme

Almost all these future products would be QUITE expensive. People went lucky wih Proscar because Propecia was REALLY expensive at first (10-13 years) and sill is expensive. So, even when some of these new products hit the market, a lot of people will keep taking finasteride/minoxidil.

The hair follicles grown in lab and implanted on the scalp or even injections for "sleeping" follicles to "wake up" will cost a lot of money, probably like today's HTs.

Maye in 40 years or so things will be different and body modifications will be cheap.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Agreed. Always trying to link ACell to areas it is not relevant with far out theories lacking evidence.


 ACell is a regenerative product that may have some new competition from AmnioFix.  A slide from Claire Higgins video presentation above, represents a topic of her discussion:

*"Potential use of papilla cells in regenerative medicine.*

Hair follicle regeneration
Treatment of androgenic alopecia
Establishment of follicles in skin grafts
Making a functional skin"

How is a product cleared by the FDA for sale as a regenerative medicine "ACell" not relevant?

Do you believe that the field of regenerative medicine is nothing more than a "far out theory"?

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hellouser

> ACell is a regenerative product that may have some new competition from AmnioFix.  A slide from Claire Higgins video presentation above, represents a topic of her discussion:
> 
> *"Potential* use of papilla cells in regenerative medicine.
> 
> Hair follicle regeneration
> Treatment of androgenic alopecia
> Establishment of follicles in skin grafts
> Making a functional skin"
> 
> ...


 And thats the problem right there. 'Potential'. This sensationalist reporting is getting tiresome.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> And thats the problem right there. 'Potential'. This sensationalist reporting is getting tiresome.


 So the studies and research covered in this thread aren't about potential?  What are they about then?

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## Thinning87

> So the studies and research covered in this thread aren't about potential?  What are they about then?
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> forhair.com
> Cole Hair Transplant
> 1070 Powers Place
> Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
> Phone 678-566-1011
> email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> ...


 Acell is not what we're talking about here, stop playing coy, you know that very well. If you were only mentioning Acell and Dr. Cole every once in a while we might even give you credit, but every thread and topic here is a chance for you to create some kind of tangent and talk about your office. I don't think it really works for you.

----------


## joachim

> New video:
> 
> Dr Claire Higgins: Reprogramming Human DP Cells by Spheroid Culture Restores Hair Inductivity 
> 
> 
> 
> From her presentation she showed this, a microscopic image of scalp skin:
> 
> 
> ...


 the video shows once more that DP spheroids alone are capable of inducing de novo hair follicle formation. the contact to the surrounding cells is established, if everything goes well, somehow automatically, and nerves, sebaceuos gland etc. is formed as well. but the problem is that the cells have not retained their full inductivity and gene expression, therefore the results are very limited so far. so with different tricks the researchers are trying to enhance this, e.g. by coating with epithelial cells like Dr. Gardner said.

if the DP cells would have their full inductive capability and gene expression within this spheroid, it wouldn't be necessary to do those culturing tricks, right? so a perfect DP spheroid (without coating with other cells) alone would induce a new follicle... in most cases at least. or let's be pessimistic instead and say only 1 of 5 from such perfect DP spheroids would form a follicle.

so am i the only one who thinks that an unlimited amount of perfect DP cells (full inductivity and full gene expression) is THE cure? even if only 1 of 5 spheroids induces a new follicle you could repeat the treatment anytime. 

why do i summarize it this way?
we already know that isolated and expanded cells in a dish lose all those required properties.
but we also know that there's another way to create brand new DP cells (hopefully fully inductive and full gene expression). i'm talking about creating DP cells from iPS cells (pluripotent stemcells), which is actually the approach from Dr. Xu. 
if he manages to create those cells, then we have an unlimited amount of DP cells.
in theory, this freshly converted cells should be fully inductive and have 100% gene expression, because this conversion is the natural way how human body's form out of an embryo. that's the reason why all this regenerative stem cell science is fascinating the whole world. it's the key to so many biological problems and diseases.

so i just realized today that the iPS cell approach is probably a big deal.
and also i think that this way (letting DP spheroids induce complete follicles from scratch) will result in relative natural growth angles. i just can't imagine that the angles will be completely different, so that it's cosmetically total bullshit. i assume there is something that guides the angle of the induced hair (let it be the skin structure, or the structure of the nerves, or whatever).

what do you think, guys? (desmond, am i right with my conclusion?)

----------


## hellouser

> if the DP cells would have their full inductive capability and gene expression within this spheroid, it wouldn't be necessary to do those culturing tricks, right? so a perfect DP spheroid (without coating with other cells) alone would induce a new follicle... in most cases at least. or let's be pessimistic instead and say only 1 of 5 from such perfect DP spheroids would form a follicle.
> 
> so am i the only one who thinks that an unlimited amount of perfect DP cells (full inductivity and full gene expression) is THE cure? even if only 1 of 5 spheroids induces a new follicle you could repeat the treatment anytime.


 Screw that. Just culure and inject MORE DP cells to make up for the lost ones. Case closed, cure found.

Why the hell are we still on this forum and not conducting trials?

----------


## fuzzyballs

> Screw that. Just culure and inject MORE DP cells to make up for the lost ones. Case closed, cure found.
> 
> Why the hell are we still on this forum and not conducting trials?


 Not conducting trials... in Asia  :Wink:

----------


## joachim

> Screw that. Just culure and inject MORE DP cells to make up for the lost ones. Case closed, cure found.
> 
> Why the hell are we still on this forum and not conducting trials?


 lol.

does that mean you agree with the idea that unlimited available DP cells derived from iPS cells are a big deal?

and arashi, what do you think about it?

i'm actually thinking that funding this approach could indeed be the cure, much sooner than the other approaches from lauster and co. 
but i didn't realize that before yesterday, because i always thought, once Dr Xu comes out with unlimited DP cells, he still has to do all the difficult 3D culturing tricks like the other researchers are doing. but that's not the case as a simple fresh DP spheroid ball alone induces de novo follicles from scratch (including seb. gland). it forces the skin cells to turn into all the required cells like dermal sheath, extracellular matrix etc., like i said, a follicle is formed from scratch.

so imagine the following scenario: Dr. Xu finds a way to convert unlimited iPS cells to DP cells (fully inductive and 100% gene expression). this can happen within let's say 3 years but also sooner if there is enough manpower and funding to try different protocols simultaenously (like i said: basically it's a trial and error game)
however, if he figures out the right steps the method how to do it has to be made public in a scientific paper, i guess. the DP spheroids without special coating tricks etc. are easy to create then (even nigam can do it). if that is the case, DP spheroid injection can take place in unregulated countries a.s.a.p. and the only task is to create this little DP balls and inject them into the scalp. angling of course has to be solved if it turns out to be a problem, but at least there is a possibility to do it with a nylon guide like arashi mentioned in other threads.

so am i crazy or what? unlimited DP cells is the next big thing. it's a completely different approach compared to what team lauster is doing. i even have more hope in that method, because i don't think researchers will ever be able to restore 100% gene expression. like Dr. Gardner said, it's maybe not necessary to achieve 100%, but what if it turns out that he waa wrong? the taiwanese studies are the first which will show if this works or not. their results will probably see the daylight not before 2016/2017.

----------


## joachim

just another thought, too:
what would happen if you extract a graft (in an FUE session), and fill the hole with a DP spheroid? would there be a greater chance of donor regeneration (even with spheroids of only 40% gene expression)? if i'm not wrong here, this isn't exactly what nigam tried. he only tried to inject 2d cells for regeneration, and some 3d spheroids into the bald recipient site.

but did anyone ever try to repair an FUE extraction hole with a DP spheroid? in theory i see a goog chance here for some regeneration... at least better as with acell or pilofocus

----------


## hellouser

> the taiwanese studies are the first which will show if this works or not. their results will probably see the daylight *not before 2016/2017.*


 ??

So, we'll know if it works after 2016/2017?

----------


## hellouser

> just another thought, too:
> what would happen if you extract a graft (in an FUE session), and fill the hole with a DP spheroid? would there be a greater chance of donor regeneration (even with spheroids of only 40% gene expression)? if i'm not wrong here, this isn't exactly what nigam tried. he only tried to inject 2d cells for regeneration, and some 3d spheroids into the bald recipient site.
> 
> but did anyone ever try to repair an FUE extraction hole with a DP spheroid? in theory i see a goog chance here for some regeneration... at least better as with acell or pilofocus


 Oh damn... considering Replicel's stem cell method is the closest of any for release, I wonder if this would work. A ridiculously simple approach too.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Acell is not what we're talking about here, stop playing coy, you know that very well. If you were only mentioning Acell and Dr. Cole every once in a while we might even give you credit, but every thread and topic here is a chance for you to create some kind of tangent and talk about your office. I don't think it really works for you.


 Forums create the illusion of a very small audience.  There are far more people who only read threads in the Bald Truth Forum than there are who both read and post comments.  My doctor's rep signature contains my email address and phone number.  I receive a steady flow of emails and calls from forum visitors (seldom posters) interested in information about currently available treatments and regenerative products.  The current research is very interesting and will hopefully be useful down the road, but many men I hear from aren't hanging their hopes on it.  They want to know what can be done now with currently available treatments. I believe current research can be incorporated into existing treatments making them more effective.  Every week we have a number of minimal depth donor extraction sites that in my opinion, provide one of the best environments for regenerative advances.  People often focus down a narrow path even when multiple viable options are available for improving the state of hair loss prevention and hair restoration.

When I have time I ask patients about their hair care regimen.  Whether they use Rogaine, Propecia, Avodart etc.  I also ask whether they visit the hair loss forums.  If they do, I ask which ones and if they post.  Approximately 90% tell me they have either visited forums at one time or regularly visit hair loss forums.  A few of our patients post.  The number one reason I commonly hear patients explain why they don't post, relates to the time and energy wasted on pissing matches.  Pissing matches do a disservice to the forum as well as hair loss sufferers.

As I mentioned, many men are tired of being bald and want to know what can be done for them now.  So if what I post disturbs you, don't read my posts. 

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## sdsurfin

> just another thought, too:
> what would happen if you extract a graft (in an FUE session), and fill the hole with a DP spheroid? would there be a greater chance of donor regeneration (even with spheroids of only 40% gene expression)? if i'm not wrong here, this isn't exactly what nigam tried. he only tried to inject 2d cells for regeneration, and some 3d spheroids into the bald recipient site.
> 
> but did anyone ever try to repair an FUE extraction hole with a DP spheroid? in theory i see a goog chance here for some regeneration... at least better as with acell or pilofocus


 I asked Dr. wesley this a few months ago, and he said that it was an interesting idea and could be used possibly in the future. he still has a ways to go refining his physical technique with pilofocus. bottom line is no one is going to mess with implanting DP shperoids in the western world until further trials are evaluated and completed. I think a lot of people are waiting to see how that taiwan study pans out. my guess is that it will not be a huge success, but might show some kind of growth of weaker hairs.  I think that from what we've been told, a higher degree of gene expression retention needs to be maintained to really get things working like they used to. 

In reply to your last posts joachim, i'm not sure you're correctly assessing what "from scratch" DP cells are.  The fact that new DP cells could THEORETICALLY be made from ips cells (Dr. xu has not done this yet, although he said it is prob possible) does not necessarily make them act differently than other DP cells.  Since they have not been made yet, no one knows to what degree they will be inductive or prone to aggregate and make follicles.  There is the advantage of not having to rapidly expand them (and thus maybe not lose as much gene expression), which is why Xu wants to do this.  However, that does not for sure mean that they will act like healthy DP cells in a non balding scalp. My guess is that in order for a real treatment or "cure" to exist, one of these teams is going to need to fabricate entire follicles in a lab setting and implant the entire follicle germ, with fat cells etc, and not just a shperoid.  How the DP cells will be made/expanded/etc is up in the air, as Gardner was explaining, we do not know if or who will figure out how to make working DP spheroids, or if we will need to make DP cells from scratch instead.

I think funding whoever needs to be funded is crucial. Xu said he aims to create a whole follicle and could do it in ten years time with more funding.  he said 2M would make a huge difference. This might seem like a drop in a bucket, but it is actually a huge amount for a research team to receive. The guys who just started to figure out how to make lab blood (no blood type needed for transfusions) just received 2M, and that was touted as a huge amount of funding.  and you can imagine how many people want to see that happen, its implications are huge for accidents etc etc.  

I do however think that as far as potential funders are concerned, baldness might be the #1 cause out there if there's is a concerted initiative. people are vain, most men go bald, and most everyone doesnt like it. the market is enormous, and the research going into it is actually huge compared to any other non life-threatening thing out there.  the fact is science is expensive and most people and govts with tons of money do not put it into any kind of science or any other useful pursuit. mostly money gets used to make more money and keep the rich richer. the funding issue is not native to baldness research.

----------


## joachim

> ??
> 
> So, we'll know if it works after 2016/2017?


 i think so, yes. or when is the planned end of their trial? i thought i read 2016 somewhere but i'm sure they will have delays. they didn't even start yet, did they?
i assume we can add 1 year delay, so we'll have some info in 2017 then.

----------


## joachim

> I asked Dr. wesley this a few months ago, and he said that it was an interesting idea and could be used possibly in the future. he still has a ways to go refining his physical technique with pilofocus. bottom line is no one is going to mess with implanting DP shperoids in the western world until further trials are evaluated and completed. I think a lot of people are waiting to see how that taiwan study pans out. my guess is that it will not be a huge success, but might show some kind of growth of weaker hairs.  I think that from what we've been told, a higher degree of gene expression retention needs to be maintained to really get things working like they used to. 
> 
> In reply to your last posts joachim, i'm not sure you're correctly assessing what "from scratch" DP cells are.  The fact that new DP cells could THEORETICALLY be made from ips cells (Dr. xu has not done this yet, although he said it is prob possible) does not necessarily make them act differently than other DP cells.  Since they have not been made yet, no one knows to what degree they will be inductive or prone to aggregate and make follicles.  There is the advantage of not having to rapidly expand them (and thus maybe not lose as much gene expression), which is why Xu wants to do this.  However, that does not for sure mean that they will act like healthy DP cells in a non balding scalp. My guess is that in order for a real treatment or "cure" to exist, one of these teams is going to need to fabricate entire follicles in a lab setting and implant the entire follicle germ, with fat cells etc, and not just a shperoid.  How the DP cells will be made/expanded/etc is up in the air, as Gardner was explaining, we do not know if or who will figure out how to make working DP spheroids, or if we will need to make DP cells from scratch instead.
> 
> I think funding whoever needs to be funded is crucial. Xu said he aims to create a whole follicle and could do it in ten years time with more funding.  he said 2M would make a huge difference. This might seem like a drop in a bucket, but it is actually a huge amount for a research team to receive. The guys who just started to figure out how to make lab blood (no blood type needed for transfusions) just received 2M, and that was touted as a huge amount of funding.  and you can imagine how many people want to see that happen, its implications are huge for accidents etc etc.  
> 
> I do however think that as far as potential funders are concerned, baldness might be the #1 cause out there if there's is a concerted initiative. people are vain, most men go bald, and most everyone doesnt like it. the market is enormous, and the research going into it is actually huge compared to any other non life-threatening thing out there.  the fact is science is expensive and most people and govts with tons of money do not put it into any kind of science or any other useful pursuit. mostly money gets used to make more money and keep the rich richer. the funding issue is not native to baldness research.


 it MUST be possible to create DP cells from iPS cells, as every cell in the human body is created from this cells when a baby is born. iPS cells differentiate into every human cell step by step. 

i think we urgently need a kind of road map from Dr. Xu. we have to know what are his next steps, based on what theories, etc.
once everybody understands his logic and theories and once we are convinced, then crowdfunding is easy.

can you ask Dr. Xu about such a road map? what tasks have to be accomplished to go towards the goal, step by step? if he can give us some explanations i can put that into a graphic. we really need to be proactive here. we should be able to summarize all facts within let's say the next 2 or 3 months, and then start something.
the good thing (hopefully) is that when we manage to crowdfund Dr. Xu we should have much more transparency to get some insight in all the processes and steps.

----------


## JJJJrS

> Forums create the illusion of a very small audience.  There are far more people who only read threads in the Bald Truth Forum than there are who both read and post comments.  My doctor's rep signature contains my email address and phone number.  I receive a steady flow of emails and calls from forum visitors (seldom posters) interested in information about currently available treatments and regenerative products.  The current research is very interesting and will hopefully be useful down the road, but many men I hear from aren't hanging their hopes on it.  They want to know what can be done now with currently available treatments. I believe current research can be incorporated into existing treatments making them more effective.  Every week we have a number of minimal depth donor extraction sites that in my opinion, provide one of the best environments for regenerative advances.  People often focus down a narrow path even when multiple viable options are available for improving the state of hair loss prevention and hair restoration.
> 
> When I have time I ask patients about their hair care regimen.  Whether they use Rogaine, Propecia, Avodart etc.  I also ask whether they visit the hair loss forums.  If they do, I ask which ones and if they post.  Approximately 90% tell me they have either visited forums at one time or regularly visit hair loss forums.  A few of our patients post.  The number one reason I commonly hear patients explain why they don't post, relates to the time and energy wasted on pissing matches.  Pissing matches do a disservice to the forum as well as hair loss sufferers.
> 
> As I mentioned, many men are tired of being bald and want to know what can be done for them now.  So if what I post disturbs you, don't read my posts. 
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> forhair.com
> Cole Hair Transplant
> ...


 That's nice but there's not a single shred of evidence that ACell has any positive effect on hair.

----------


## sdsurfin

> it MUST be possible to create DP cells from iPS cells, as every cell in the human body is created from this cells when a baby is born. iPS cells differentiate into every human cell step by step. 
> 
> i think we urgently need a kind of road map from Dr. Xu. we have to know what are his next steps, based on what theories, etc.
> once everybody understands his logic and theories and once we are convinced, then crowdfunding is easy.
> 
> can you ask Dr. Xu about such a road map? what tasks have to be accomplished to go towards the goal, step by step? if he can give us some explanations i can put that into a graphic. we really need to be proactive here. we should be able to summarize all facts within let's say the next 2 or 3 months, and then start something.
> the good thing (hopefully) is that when we manage to crowdfund Dr. Xu we should have much more transparency to get some insight in all the processes and steps.


 

Absolutely agreed, I am waiting on him. He needs to see if crowdfunding is even allowed and has asked his university.  If he doesn't work with us soon then we should crowdfund Gardner's or lausters team or someone else (i liked the idea of finding someone who wants to 3D print a follicle. joachim maybe get on that? or someone else? The techy aspect of this is I think a huge draw for crowdfunding and media attention).  Otherwise it should be a US or UK team not affiliated with a company.  No one is going to want to send their money to china or taiwan even if the research is legit, and companies can take care of themselves as far as finding money. Xu's team is perfect, Im not sure why it's taking so long for his uni to reply.  We could also see if Xu is willing to work as a consultant/partner with a 3D printing research team to use his knowledge to make follicles. he might be down if the money is there.

----------


## joachim

> Absolutely agreed, I am waiting on him. He needs to see if crowdfunding is even allowed and has asked his university.  If he doesn't work with us soon then we should crowdfund Gardner's or lausters team or someone else (i liked the idea of finding someone who wants to 3D print a follicle. joachim maybe get on that? or someone else? The techy aspect of this is I think a huge draw for crowdfunding and media attention).  Otherwise it should be a US or UK team not affiliated with a company.  No one is going to want to send their money to china or taiwan even if the research is legit, and companies can take care of themselves as far as finding money. Xu's team is perfect, Im not sure why it's taking so long for his uni to reply.  We could also see if Xu is willing to work as a consultant/partner with a 3D printing research team to use his knowledge to make follicles. he might be down if the money is there.


 yes, i'm trying to bring the 3D printing idea forward and at least check the technical feasibility of the mechanical aspects. I already contacted a big company and will hopefully receive some answers soon.

would be fantastic if we could have Xu for this. 
by the way where is Xu located? and in which university?

i also think if we can start the 3D printing experiment this will create some good public attention and will be a good marketing for the 3D printing company itself.

----------


## sdsurfin

> yes, i'm trying to bring the 3D printing idea forward and at least check the technical feasibility of the mechanical aspects. I already contacted a big company and will hopefully receive some answers soon.
> 
> would be fantastic if we could have Xu for this. 
> by the way where is Xu located? and in which university?
> 
> i also think if we can start the 3D printing experiment this will create some good public attention and will be a good marketing for the 3D printing company itself.


 this presentation is great

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHbSbpWr2bw

really good summary of where they are at with DP culturing and trichogenicity maintenance.  Obviously there is a long way to go before they perfect their methods of maintaining human DP expression, but the methods are clearly being developed and figured out.  


good work with the 3D printing. The problem is that until they figure out how to make the correct DP components, 3D printing might be kinda shooting in the dark.  no use printing the materials if they are not good materials.  i think dr. gardner knows what hes talking about when he says we're not there yet. I really think funding Xu would be a good idea, or funding Dr. Gardner, but he seemed hesitant and hopefully he has enough funding.

----------


## hellouser

> Oh damn... considering Replicel's stem cell method is the closest of any for release, I wonder if this would work. A ridiculously simple approach too.


 Oh, and of course... much more interesting than Acell, LOL.

----------


## hellouser

> lol.
> 
> does that mean you agree with the idea that unlimited available DP cells derived from iPS cells are a big deal?


 Sure, but I'm leaning more towards running at least a Phase I clinical trial with existing 3D culturing method of DP cells. The hell are we waiting for, seriously? We have something they all say creates follicles to some degree without depleting donor.

----------


## joachim

> Sure, but I'm leaning more towards running at least a Phase I clinical trial with existing 3D culturing method of DP cells. The hell are we waiting for, seriously? We have something they all say creates follicles to some degree without depleting donor.


 that's true. if i only could have the induced fluffy hair of all those mice =)
thus, the taiwanese trial will be crucial. but still soooo far away. get some volunteers now and inject some DP spheroids. imagine, if it turns out that the 40% gene expression is already enough to create some nice hair.

although all these video presentations seem to show some good approaches to make better DP cells, i'm still wondering about all the recent news like the chinese one which claimed to have retained the whole gene expression. also, i'm hoping for a summary from desmond as he said several times that it seems many teams have figured out how to overcome the DP culturing problems. i don't want to believe that we only reached 40% like Dr. Gardner mentioned. but unfortunately all the video presentations tell that.

didn't desmond download the complete paper about those chinese culturing technique? he even told us that the chinese are totally aware of the method used at the taiwan university and therefore they tried to beat them. i don't know what to believe. on the one side there is Dr.  gardner with jahoda, on the other side there are some asian teams with their statements, and somewhere in the middle is desmond =)

----------


## joachim

wait a second.

i really don't want to mention his name that often, but seriously, what about nigam?

isn't he able to exactly do the protocol from jahoda/gardner and inject the 3D spheroids with 40% gene expression? and practically, doing the same thing like in the taiwan trials?
but he shouldn't dare to inject other crap like he does usually. and not mix it with donor doubling, prp, etc.
it should be a safe experiment and only follow the exact same protocol from the researchers.

am i missing something? isn't nigam able to replicate the methods exactly?
are we really supposed to wait 2 or 3 years to see the outcome of the taiwanese trials?

----------


## hellouser

> wait a second.
> 
> i really don't want to mention his name that often, but seriously, what about nigam?
> 
> isn't he able to exactly do the protocol from jahoda/gardner and inject the 3D spheroids with 40% gene expression? and practically, doing the same thing like in the taiwan trials?
> but he shouldn't dare to inject other crap like he does usually. and not mix it with donor doubling, prp, etc.
> it should be a safe experiment and only follow the exact same protocol from the researchers.
> 
> am i missing something? isn't nigam able to replicate the methods exactly?
> are we really supposed to wait 2 or 3 years to see the outcome of the taiwanese trials?


 Nigam injected animal serum into his patients. Every individual from the forums who had work done with him had failed results. Vivek Nigam should be in JAIL.

----------


## Haircure

> wait a second.
> 
> i really don't want to mention his name that often, but seriously, what about nigam?
> 
> isn't he able to exactly do the protocol from jahoda/gardner and inject the 3D spheroids with 40% gene expression? and practically, doing the same thing like in the taiwan trials?
> but he shouldn't dare to inject other crap like he does usually. and not mix it with donor doubling, prp, etc.
> it should be a safe experiment and only follow the exact same protocol from the researchers.
> 
> am i missing something? isn't nigam able to replicate the methods exactly?
> are we really supposed to wait 2 or 3 years to see the outcome of the taiwanese trials?


 Just to add, Nigam isn't even a real doctor, and basically everything he has ever claimed or done has been a scam and has failed. I'm not sure you guys know this about India, but it's an incredibly corrupt nation, and I mean on all levels of infrastructure.  Scamming, bribery, and false advertisements are rampant throughout, and it is very easy to  bribe officials for licences, permits, and official documentation's. Just a small example of this can be found when obtaining a drivers licence (though you could really drive without one), you literally can go to the Licensing office and pay something like 500 rupees and get an official licence.

----------


## joachim

i know the stories about nigam. and yes, i have to admit he really should be in jail by now. i wonder why he isn't yet.

so what alternatives do we have? we need someone who is able to replicate some of those dp cell culturing tricks. located somewhere on a far far away island or so.

----------


## sdsurfin

> wait a second.
> 
> i really don't want to mention his name that often, but seriously, what about nigam?
> 
> isn't he able to exactly do the protocol from jahoda/gardner and inject the 3D spheroids with 40&#37; gene expression? and practically, doing the same thing like in the taiwan trials?
> but he shouldn't dare to inject other crap like he does usually. and not mix it with donor doubling, prp, etc.
> it should be a safe experiment and only follow the exact same protocol from the researchers.
> 
> am i missing something? isn't nigam able to replicate the methods exactly?
> are we really supposed to wait 2 or 3 years to see the outcome of the taiwanese trials?


 

No more talk of Nigam, seriously.  he's a hack and way behind knowledge-wise compared to the real pros.  

Also, no chinese team EVER claimed 100% gene expression retention. the only thing we know about the chinese team is that they improved gene expression similarly to the other teams. they are using methods that are similar to the last presentation by the japanese guy. no one except for desmond ever claimed otherwise, and as useful and enthusiastic as he is, the dude gets all hyped up and says things that are taken out of context and inflated. 


also hellouser- no one is doing a tril except for the taiwanese because it is NOT READY. get it through your head man, no one is out to slow things down or to stagnate. everyone wants progress. If you watch those presentations you can see that human DP cels are simply not making good hair yet. THe difference between the way that mouse DPs induce hair and the way that human ones do (even when gene retention techniques are used) is staggering.  Before they start injecting those things into people, they need to figure out how to make them actually work well.  Also, did you maybe notice that the grafting techniques that they have basically form a crazy clump of hair in the mouse skin, hairs that go every which way, and are not suitable for duplicating in a person?  I certainly would not let anyone inject that shit into me the way it is being done now, and i dont know why anyone else would.   

Im curious to know how the team in taiwan is doing it, but im guessing its with sick people and they are probably doing a similar grafting procedure. in any case ,dont expect to be seeing pictures of people with natural looking hair coming ou tof that.  it will probably just be a little circle that they are using and will asess how well the cells induce follicles, which they will probably cut out of the patients as soon as its finished.

----------


## sdsurfin

Also, mark my words- replicel is going to totally change their product around, and are probably looking into the viability of injecting 3D cultured cells as well.  I have no doubt that they will take their time, and eventually release a product that takes into account the current progress. No way they move forward and market their current product, its way behind the times.  I think that in a decade or more, something like histogen, which injects growth factors, combined with a topical AA, combined with a stem cell injectable, will all be used in combination.  some time after that, entire follicles will be grown and implanted. unfortunately, except for the topical AA, i dont think any of that is coming within the next ten years. too much testing and progress to be done.  those are my predictions, may they be proven wrong  :Smile:  It's possible that a good PGD2 blocker might be discovered in the next few years too, and eventually marketed.  I know that Garza is working on that, and probably other people, especially after receiving that last email from dr. xu.

----------


## JZA70

Curious if RepliCel will change their method. I agree how it looked like a state of the art treatment a few years ago but now it's at the very bottom of the totem pole. 

I assume if they do end up changing their method, they would have to redo clinical trials.

----------


## Armandein

> just another thought, too:
> what would happen if you extract a graft (in an FUE session), and fill the hole with a DP spheroid? would there be a greater chance of donor regeneration (even with spheroids of only 40% gene expression)? if i'm not wrong here, this isn't exactly what nigam tried. he only tried to inject 2d cells for regeneration, and some 3d spheroids into the bald recipient site.
> 
> but did anyone ever try to repair an FUE extraction hole with a DP spheroid? in theory i see a goog chance here for some regeneration... at least better as with acell or pilofocus


 Fantastic idea....., surely it works

----------


## hellouser

> just another thought, too:
> what would happen if you extract a graft (in an FUE session), and fill the hole with a DP spheroid? would there be a greater chance of donor regeneration (even with spheroids of only 40% gene expression)? if i'm not wrong here, this isn't exactly what nigam tried. he only tried to inject 2d cells for regeneration, and some 3d spheroids into the bald recipient site.
> 
> but did anyone ever try to repair an FUE extraction hole with a DP spheroid? in theory i see a goog chance here for some regeneration... at least better as with acell or pilofocus


 This of course coincides with the wounding method... HOWEVER, donor area is not the only wounded region.. the recipient area is too! And remember, recipient area not only receives new graft from donor, but these are also placed overtop existing miniaturized follicles... so why not inject DP cells into THIS area as well potentially allowing recipient grafts, reviving old miniaturized follicles AND new follicle formation as well. TRIPLE-****ING-THREAT.

Would be really interesting how these wounds progress after injections of Replicels dermal sheath cup cells or even Histogen's growth factor injections.

----------


## joachim

> This of course coincides with the wounding method... HOWEVER, donor area is not the only wounded region.. the recipient area is too! And remember, recipient area not only receives new graft from donor, but these are also placed overtop existing miniaturized follicles... so why not inject DP cells into THIS area as well potentially allowing recipient grafts, reviving old miniaturized follicles AND new follicle formation as well. TRIPLE-****ING-THREAT.
> 
> Would be really interesting how these wounds progress after injections of Replicels dermal sheath cup cells or even Histogen's growth factor injections.


 i think inserting DP spheorids together with the grafts in the recipient site could be a technical problem. thd DP spheroids are not very stable. they have to be inserted carefully. if you put it together with a graft, the mechanical force would probably destroy the spheroid. the result would be 2D cells avain, or something like broken pieces of the spheroid.
injection into the donor site hole seems easier to me. the wound would also quickly close and the spheroid would be kept safely inside then. maybe in combination with ACell would be a good shot, too.
if we only could test that somehow, but there's no way if nigam is out of the game.

i see this also as a possible plan B in case it turns out that in some years bioengineered follicles implantation into bald scalp doesn't produce sufficient results because of lacking fat cells or whatever. instead of implanting the lab grown follicles into bald scalp just do a regular FUE and repair the donor sites instead. because the environment is much better in the donor area i see a better chance for lab grown follicles to grow in donor than in recipient. however, this is a worst case scenario. i still hope that once lab grown follicles are ready they will grow everywhere anyway. at least for 5 to 10 years until they die again. to me this would be an effective cure, even if i have to go for a refresh treatment every 5 to 10 years.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> That's nice but there's not a single shred of evidence that ACell has any positive effect on hair.


 So you have been present at every ACell study related to follicle regeneration ever conducted, and you're here to tell us that ACell is worthless withinin the field of hair transplantation?  You weren't present during our study, I doubt you were present during Dr. Jerry Cooley's or Dr. Mwamba's study.  Which studies did you witness that were unsuccessful?

Chuck

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> It's possible that a good PGD2 blocker might be discovered in the next few years too, and eventually marketed.  I know that Garza is working on that, and probably other people, especially after receiving that last email from dr. xu.


 I agree.  Those of you who have had dental work or FUE hair transplant surgery are aware that medication can be administered to have a more localized effect.  In other words when they numb your mouth or your head, the rest of your body doesn't go numb as well.  That's why I believe micro needling could play a role in administering an effective PGD2 blocker down the road.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## joachim

WHERE IS DESMOND???

a lot of questions are still unanswered. it's been a months now since the conference.

----------


## walrus

> So you have been present at every ACell study related to follicle regeneration ever conducted, and you're here to tell us that ACell is worthless withinin the field of hair transplantation?  You weren't present during our study, I doubt you were present during Dr. Jerry Cooley's or Dr. Mwamba's study.  Which studies did you witness that were unsuccessful?
> 
> Chuck


 The burden of proof is not on us in this case. Where is the evidence? Were these studies published? If not, why not?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> The burden of proof is not on us in this case. Where is the evidence? Were these studies published? If not, why not?


 I responded to JJJJrs comment: _"That's nice but there's not a single shred of evidence that ACell has any positive effect on hair."_

If JJJJrs had said "I have not personally seen convincing evidence, ACell has any positive effect on hair", I would have respected that statement.  His statement as posted is ludicrous.  I have personally seen hair growing from extraction sites.  Hyaluronic acid improves the effectiveness of ACell.  So much so that, in many cases the extraction sites are extremely difficult to locate.  Many of Dr. Cole's patients are physicians.  Every one of them as long as I have been with Dr. Cole has opted to have ACell administered during their surgery.  They are well aware of advances is regenerative medicine and understand how it is possible for some of the follicles in their donor to regenerate.  We did have a patient in two weeks ago with a Ph.D. in Pharmacology that opted out of ACell and PRP.  He also doesn't believe there will ever be an oral or topical cure for male pattern baldness.  So everyone has their opinions.

Skeptics should read up on extracellular matrix.  I have spoken with the ACell rep and the FDA is very strict on what can be said about their products.  They are allowed to say it's an effective remodeling and regenerative product because studies support that, but they can't give certain specifics.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## walrus

The above post is entirely anecdotal in nature, you provide no hard evidence.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> The above post is entirely anecdotal in nature, you provide no hard evidence.


 Have a look at Dr. Jerry Cooley's ACell studies.  If that isn't convincing to you, see if you can witness an ACell study conducted by a doctor having success with ACell.  Seeing with your own eyes is the best hard evidence.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## walrus

> Have a look at Dr. Jerry Cooley's ACell studies.  If that isn't convincing to you, see if you can witness an ACell study conducted by a doctor having success with ACell.  Seeing with your own eyes is the best hard evidence.


 Are said studies published in peer reviewed journals?

----------


## Thinning87

No one here cares about Acell. We all know you're just trying to publicize your boss. It's so obvious, have some self respect and stop trying to make it look like a conversation about Acell belongs to this thread. You're only hurting your own credibility.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> No one here cares about Acell. We all know you're just trying to publicize your boss. It's so obvious, have some self respect and stop trying to make it look like a conversation about Acell belongs to this thread. You're only hurting your own credibility.


 It's people such as yourself who keep the ACell discussion alive with incredible statements.  For instance your statement; "No one here cares about Acell".  Since only a very small percentage of forum visitors ever post, how in the world could you possibly know that no one here cares about ACell?  You don't, so why do you even read my posts? I get a steady flow of emails from forum visitors interested in regenerative therapy. If you're not interested, then quit bringing it up.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## FearTheLoss

> It's people such as yourself who keep the ACell discussion alive with incredible statements.  For instance your statement; "No one here cares about Acell".  Since only a very small percentage of forum visitors ever post, how in the world could you possibly know that no one here cares about ACell?  You don't, so why do you even read my posts? I get a steady flow of emails from forum visitors interested in regenerative therapy. If you're not interested, then quit bringing it up.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> forhair.com
> Cole Hair Transplant
> 1070 Powers Place
> Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
> Phone 678-566-1011
> email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> ...


 
I personally am very interested in the possibilities of ACell. After reading a lot of literature on it, and previous posts, I can't wait to see how Dr. Wesley's next clinical trial results come out. Furthermore, I can't wait to see what the next few years will hold in terms of using PRP/Acell as a stand-alone treatment for prevention of hair loss. The science is there, that's undeniable. I'm failing to understand why forum members are so quick to shoot it down, but yet, they are also so quick to support snake oil with no scientific backing. It's baffling.

----------


## walrus

> they are also so quick to support snake oil with no scientific backing. It's baffling.


 What evidence is there for Acell working in this context? All I see are anecdotes which don't cut it.

----------


## Thinning87

Because every freaking thread in this forum is a chance for him to bring up something about Dr. Cole and what he does. If we had a thread on astronomy, he would find a way to link Dr. Cole to the conversation. This is not the Acell thread. There is an Acell thread so talk about Dr. Cole and Acell in there. If no one is posting in that thread, then that's probably a sign that no one cares.

I think the guy is trying to take advantage from the high increase in forum membership caused by Desmond's trip to publicize Dr. Cole. Like, who the hell needs to paste a 15 line signature at the end if every post??

----------


## Hicks

The ignore list is a very powerful tool on this forum. Some of you need to try it.  It's great  :Smile:

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Because every freaking thread in this forum is a chance for him to bring up something about Dr. Cole and what he does. If we had a thread on astronomy, he would find a way to link Dr. Cole to the conversation. This is not the Acell thread. There is an Acell thread so talk about Dr. Cole and Acell in there. If no one is posting in that thread, then that's probably a sign that no one cares.
> 
> I think the guy is trying to take advantage from the high increase in forum membership caused by Desmond's trip to publicize Dr. Cole. Like, who the hell needs to paste a 15 line signature at the end if every post??


 I posted in this thread 25 times and mentioned Dr. Cole's name 2 times prior to this post.  

My signature was nine lines.  You make a good point though, it would look better if I didn't break it up into so many lines.  Now can we please get back to discussing the research?

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## FearTheLoss

Just took a look at this for the first time, VERY interesting stuff! Do you know if Dr. Cooley is continuing his studies? Is Dr. Cole continuing his ACell studies?

FTL

----------


## hellouser

Looks like wounding + Acell. Why not try to create a 4mm punch and pack it with acell into existing bald scalp?

In any case, those results look remarkable but then.... where the hell are REAL LIFE scenarios of this? Why hasn't a single person showed us their results?

----------


## FearTheLoss

Chuck, 

Can you let us know if Dr. Cole and Dr. Cooley are, in fact, still working on ACell and regeneration? And what progress has been made?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Chuck, 
> 
> Can you let us know if Dr. Cole and Dr. Cooley are, in fact, still working on ACell and regeneration? And what progress has been made?


 Extracellular matrix plays two currently acknowledged roles in tissue remodeling/regeneration.  It exists between the cells of all soft tissue in the body and serves as a "scaffolding" similar to how the stud framing on a house supports the sheetrock and siding.  The newer discovery relates to extracellular matrix serving as a cell communication medium.  Our most recent study demonstrated to us that ACell powder, mixed with hyaluronic acid (forming a gel) is far more effective than ACell powder alone, stuffed in an extraction site.  ACell is a piece of the puzzle which may or may not endure as new research reveals more of the unknowns.  We are currently using AmnioFix in hopes that this true biologic has more effective regenerative properties.  In our most recent ACell study, we trimmed the hair and tattooed a 1cm square on the right and left side of our patient's head.  We extracted an equal number of grafts from both sides.  One side we treated with ACell powder alone and we didn't treat the opposite side with ACell powder.  Without mixing the ACell powder with hyaluronic acid, the follicle regeneration in this case was disappointing.  On the side we didn't use ACell at all, there were visible extraction sites.  The side where the ACell powder was used, had far less hypopigmentation, but as I mentioned, without the hyaluronic acid, regeneration was disappointing with 2 out of 17 extraction sites growing hair.  On the side where ACell was not used at all, zero extraction sites regrew hair.  

On the same patient in a previous study, we extracted 12 grafts and treated the extraction sites with ACell  +  hyaluronic acid, forming a gel.  6 of the 12 extraction sites grew hairs.  

Our most recent study included both ACell and AmnioFix made from donated human amniotic tissue.  This is the tissue that is commonly discarded after childbirth and can now be donated because of its value in regenerative applications.

_35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Looks like wounding + Acell. Why not try to create a 4mm punch and pack it with acell into existing bald scalp?
> 
> In any case, those results look remarkable but then.... where the hell are REAL LIFE scenarios of this? Why hasn't a single person showed us their results?


 ACell which is an extracellular matrix product made from pig's bladder serves as only a piece of the tissue regeneration puzzle.  We use ACell primarily in our FUE extraction sites but we also use it to improve the yield when beard hair is transplanted to balding areas on the scalp.  Most men don't get excited about their donor density.  They are of course happy to preserve as much of it as possible.  When beard hair is blended properly with scalp hair it's often very difficult to locate the hairs.  So a guy that got a 90% yield as opposed to 60% would have a difficult time showing that extra 30% off because there's nothing to compare that 90% with.

Hopefully/possibly with a boost from current regenerative research, ACell or perhaps AmnioFix will play an important role in improved follicle regeneration that will create the wow factor everyone is hoping for.

_35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Extracellular matrix plays two currently acknowledged roles in tissue remodeling/regeneration.  It exists between the cells of all soft tissue in the body and serves as a "scaffolding" similar to how the stud framing on a house supports the sheetrock and siding.  The newer discovery relates to extracellular matrix serving as a cell communication medium.  Our most recent study demonstrated to us that ACell powder, mixed with hyaluronic acid (forming a gel) is far more effective than ACell powder alone, stuffed in an extraction site.  ACell is a piece of the puzzle which may or may not endure as new research reveals more of the unknowns.  We are currently using AmnioFix in hopes that this true biologic has more effective regenerative properties.  In our most recent ACell study, we trimmed the hair and tattooed a 1cm square on the right and left side of our patient's head.  We extracted an equal number of grafts from both sides.  One side we treated with ACell powder alone and we didn't treat the opposite side with ACell powder.  Without mixing the ACell powder with hyaluronic acid, the follicle regeneration in this case was disappointing.  On the side we didn't use ACell at all, there were visible extraction sites.  The side where the ACell powder was used, had far less hypopigmentation, but as I mentioned, without the hyaluronic acid, regeneration was disappointing with 2 out of 17 extraction sites growing hair.  On the side where ACell was not used at all, zero extraction sites regrew hair.  
> 
> On the same patient in a previous study, we extracted 12 grafts and treated the extraction sites with ACell  +  hyaluronic acid, forming a gel.  6 of the 12 extraction sites grew hairs.  
> 
> Our most recent study included both ACell and AmnioFix made from donated human amniotic tissue.  This is the tissue that is commonly discarded after childbirth and can now be donated because of its value in regenerative applications.
> 
> _35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant
> 1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_


 
What is Dr. Cole's future plans? To continue testing the ACell combined with hyaluronic acid? and do you see this is a procedure where he may get consistent results and eventually market regeneration?

----------


## joachim

6 of 12 extraction sites grew a hair, really? that would be fantastic already.
but was it only single hairs, or also 2, 3 and 4 hairs, depending on the extracted graft?

and was it a normal extraction or was it some kind of gho technique where follicles are only partly extracted and some cells left behind in the extraction site?

and also, when was this 12 graft test done? was it this year?
is it planned to do a larger session with 500 grafts or so?

if cole really can achieve about 50% regeneration consistently (average) and even make FUE scars invisible because healing is better with ACell, then this would be a game changer and make pilofocus obsolete.

i'm sure the 12 graft test was documented with pictures. why not share them here? (but a new thread should be created for it then)

----------


## DeuceWillis

Wow I sure do enjoy dropping by and getting a laugh at all these girls arguing all the time... Some one talked trash to me on here bc I said it was pointless to even send Desmond's ass to that conference bc once again we'll be in the same boat more info and nothing to do with it. And what do you know? It's nearly been a month and a half since that conference and nothing to show for it except for a bunch of "we're working on it" videos. They're still in the lab and were still going bald lol.. **** it I'm tired of caring

----------


## hellouser

> 6 of 12 extraction sites grew a hair, really? that would be fantastic already.
> but was it only single hairs, or also 2, 3 and 4 hairs, depending on the extracted graft?
> 
> and was it a normal extraction or was it some kind of gho technique where follicles are only partly extracted and some cells left behind in the extraction site?
> 
> and also, when was this 12 graft test done? was it this year?
> is it planned to do a larger session with 500 grafts or so?
> 
> if cole really can achieve about 50% regeneration consistently (average) and even make FUE scars invisible because healing is better with ACell, then this would be a game changer and make pilofocus obsolete.
> ...


 Pilofocus is still scarless initially anyway, so no scarring whatsoever, not even a chance. But more importantly, graft survival and speed are far superior to FUE.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Pilofocus is still scarless initially anyway, so no scarring whatsoever, not even a chance. But more importantly, graft survival and speed are far superior to FUE.


 Kudos to Dr. Wesley for taking on the Pilofocus project.  I wish him great success.

For Hellouser:
1.)  To make claims about what the Pilofocus can do while it's still in the development stage is premature.

2.)  No visible scarring, perhaps.  Scarring under the skin will occur whenever an instrument is inserted into the skin and moved about during the course of harvesting follicles.

3.) Faster than FUE?  There is no FUE speed standard to base such a statement on.  FUE tools and techniques are very different.  Some doctors use needles while others use blunt punches while others use sharp punches.  FUE extraction speed varies considerably from doctor to doctor.   For instance some doctors extract grafts manually while others use a powered, doctor-controlled device. Manual extraction is slower and less accurate in experienced, capable hands. Patient's hair characteristics vary considerably and have a huge impact on extraction speed.


_35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_

----------


## walrus

> Wow I sure do enjoy dropping by and getting a laugh at all these girls arguing all the time... Some one talked trash to me on here bc I said it was pointless to even send Desmond's ass to that conference bc once again we'll be in the same boat more info and nothing to do with it. And what do you know? It's nearly been a month and a half since that conference and nothing to show for it except for a bunch of "we're working on it" videos. They're still in the lab and were still going bald lol.. **** it I'm tired of caring


 DeuceWillis, we are grateful for your constructive, insightful, and wondrously enlightening comments. Please drop by again.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> 6 of 12 extraction sites grew a hair, really? that would be fantastic already.
> but was it only single hairs, or also 2, 3 and 4 hairs, depending on the extracted graft?
> 
> and was it a normal extraction or was it some kind of gho technique where follicles are only partly extracted and some cells left behind in the extraction site?
> 
> and also, when was this 12 graft test done? was it this year?
> is it planned to do a larger session with 500 grafts or so?
> 
> if cole really can achieve about 50% regeneration consistently (average) and even make FUE scars invisible because healing is better with ACell, then this would be a game changer and make pilofocus obsolete.
> ...


 THIS^^. Chuck.

----------


## sdsurfin

where the hell is desmond and why haven't we learned anything about lauster's team? that was really the only interesting part of the conference, what a ****in tease.  All those other videos have been a total letdown.

----------


## Desmond84

> where the hell is desmond and why haven't we learned anything about lauster's team? that was really the only interesting part of the conference, what a ****in tease.  All those other videos have been a total letdown.


 Hi brother, apologies for not being so active. I'm away on a work trip in Indonesia. Im back on Wednesday.

They have given me the green light to post their presentation. They were also happy with my summary of my interview albeit some minor changes have to be made. I'll post the whole thing on Wednesday 

All in all though, we actually managed to figure a lot out:

- Follica's program has been halted for now.

- Lausters team has made hu progress.

- Jahodas team has subdivided into 4 teams each trying different approaches.

- There are 6 other groups trying to create a hair follicle.

- all the recent studies have been conducted using human cells.

- most teams believe they are 2-3 years away from the final cure.

The presentations are quite in depth and needs a bit of further reading to grasp everything they are talking about. We'll have a closer look at all those presentations in a weeks time.

My aim was to initially get most of the presentation online so that ppl can watch it AMD make up their own minds, rather than hearing it from a third party.

Oh also, I have some promising news for everyone :-) as I said before the German team have progressed significantly and under the radar for over 5 years now. I just received an email for Dr Lindner that they will be launching their hair multiplication website in the next 4 weeks, which will explain a lot of their work and findings. That is definitely a good sign in my eyes :-)

Hope this gibes everyone more hope. I'll be back online on Wednesday night. Keep on rocking my brothers.

Ciao ;-)

----------


## DeuceWillis

Anytime walrus!

----------


## DeuceWillis

Well I guess I ate my words on that one. Touché Desmond, Touché indeed.

----------


## stan

hey des

if you get time check your thread on finasteride, got a question for you.

PS- my apologies to everyone for this unrelated post

----------


## Buster

> - most teams believe they are 2-3 years away from the final cure.


 We can only hope.

----------


## hellouser

> We can only hope.


 At least its plural; team*s*.

We dont have to hope for just ONE team.

----------


## Seuxin

But, Follica is really dead ?

----------


## Phatalis

So I guess we can be somewhat safe to assume that the cure could actually be here within 10 years for real this time? heh.

----------


## nameless

> So I guess we can be somewhat safe to assume that the cure could actually be here within 10 years for real this time? heh.


 And I think we should use the adipose stem cell (AAPE) exactly as it was used in the study as a bridge to improve our hair for us for those 10 years.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

Of course this is a speculative question, but how do you envision a cure being delivered?

_35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant 1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice. Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_

----------


## Thinning87

> Of course this is a speculative question, but how do you envision a cure being delivered?
> 
> _35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant 1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice. Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_


 Most likely without the help of a hair surgeon. It's obvious.

----------


## nameless

> At least its plural; team*s*.
> 
> We dont have to hope for just ONE team.


 
Hellouser don't you think that there's a real probability that adipose stem cell extract (AAPE) could give us solid cover while we wait for the cell based therapies to be perfected and get to market?

----------


## sdsurfin

Thanks for the update desmond. However, this is the kind of buoyantly optimistic post that you often make without really backing up anything you are saying.  It gets us all excited, and then when we are left to see the videos/talk to the researchers etc, it all seems not quite so great. Where are you basing this idea that most researchers are 2-3 years away from a final cure? According to dr. gardner and dr. xu (two of the top guys) they have no idea whether they are even close to making a working follicle. Their best guess is someone will make a follicle in the next ten years. I'm not saying you're wrong, but none of the videos posted so far shows us being anywhere nearer than probably decades from a real cure.  Right now all they are able to do is restore some inductivity to hair cells and grow some patchy clumps of fibers in mice.  how does this translate to a cure in 3 years? even if we make working follicles, who knows how many obstacles still exist. 

I'm pretty tired of reading all this cure is coming soon bollocks, when there is a new roadblock at every step, not to mention endless trials (which are necessary mostly).  If you're going to say something like this, then let us know why! so far none of the guys we have talked to has that kind of optimism, or is even willing to venture a guess at when a treatment is coming.  I'm looking forward to the presentation from lauster, but for real, if it is anything like the others i'm gonna be pretty bummed.  Sometimes I feel like you (desmond) project your own optimism onto the people you talk to, and whatever they told you has been amplified to hopes that are unfounded.  I'll believe a cure is coming in three years when I hear a single one of these researchers say it themselves.  And more specifically, when I hear them say that they will be growing new hair on bald people in three years, not hopefully making ONE new follicle in a lab that may or may not survive on someones scalp.   :Confused:  :Confused:

----------


## Arashi

> Thanks for the update desmond. However, this is the kind of buoyantly optimistic post that you often make without really backing up anything you are saying.  It gets us all excited, and then when we are left to see the videos/talk to the researchers etc, it all seems not quite so great. Where are you basing this idea that most researchers are 2-3 years away from a final cure? According to dr. gardner and dr. xu (two of the top guys) they have no idea whether they are even close to making a working follicle. Their best guess is someone will make a follicle in the next ten years. I'm not saying you're wrong, but none of the videos posted so far shows us being anywhere nearer than probably decades from a real cure.  Right now all they are able to do is restore some inductivity to hair cells and grow some patchy clumps of fibers in mice.  how does this translate to a cure in 3 years? even if we make working follicles, who knows how many obstacles still exist. 
> 
> I'm pretty tired of reading all this cure is coming soon bollocks, when there is a new roadblock at every step, not to mention endless trials (which are necessary mostly).  If you're going to say something like this, then let us know why! so far none of the guys we have talked to has that kind of optimism, or is even willing to venture a guess at when a treatment is coming.  I'm looking forward to the presentation from lauster, but for real, if it is anything like the others i'm gonna be pretty bummed.  Sometimes I feel like you (desmond) project your own optimism onto the people you talk to, and whatever they told you has been amplified to hopes that are unfounded.  I'll believe a cure is coming in three years when I hear a single one of these researchers say it themselves.  And more specifically, when I hear them say that they will be growing new hair on bald people in three years, not hopefully making ONE new follicle in a lab that may or may not survive on someones scalp.


 I definitely can see where you're coming from. I'm an optimistic guy myself by nature and it's not hard to see Desmond is one too  :Smile:  But that can lead to disappointments every now and then. Although the whole WCHR project has been a great success for us (we finally understand where we are and even Dr Gardner came to this board to answer any questions we had, who would have thought that to be possible! All thanks to Desmond !), the presentations itself where a bit disappointing so far and no breakthrough like Jahoda's at WCHR 2013 was reported.

Dr Gardner said he doesn't want to make any predictions. I gathered he basically says the 'missing link' could be found tomorrow and for all we know we can grow perfect follicles tomorrow or there might be tons of roadblocks down the road from hereon. We just don't know. All we know is that we're making solid progress. So while 2-3 years certainly might be correct, I haven't seen any evidence so far that justifies that assumption

----------


## sascha

Hey guys, I spoke with my friend from back in the day. He studies IT in Berlin and he said that rumors go around that "the hair loss section has something to present soon". Probably he meant the thing with the website Desmond mentioned. Just wanted to tell you guys. Cheers
P.S: Don´t be always so pessimistic

----------


## stan

> Hey guys, I spoke with my friend from back in the day. He studies IT in Berlin and he said that rumors go around that "the hair loss section has something to present soon". Probably he meant the thing with the website Desmond mentioned. Just wanted to tell you guys. Cheers
> P.S: Don´t be always so pessimistic


  whats it got to do with IT? sorry for asking a lame Q

----------


## sascha

> whats it got to do with IT? sorry for asking a lame Q


 Just because it is the TU Berlin(technical university). The news per se don´t have something to do with it  :Smile:

----------


## joachim

> Just because it is the TU Berlin(technical university). The news per se don´t have something to do with it


 nice if we have some kind of insider at the TU Berlin =)
but i think the new website is at least a good start for more transparency.
keep us updated with whatever info you can get, especially if you live in Berlin.

----------


## hellouser

One of Dr. Lauster's team members has this site:

http://www.tissuse.com/

Here's some technical detail about the site:

http://whois.domaintools.com/tissuse.com

Notice that it was setup in 2010, around the time they made the hair follicle discovery??

----------


## stan

> Just because it is the TU Berlin(technical university). The news per se don´t have something to do with it


 oh i c . .  :P. HOPE.

----------


## hellouser

> Oh also, i have some promising news for everyone :-) as i said before the german team have progressed significantly and under the radar for over 5 years now. *i just received an email for dr lindner that they will be launching their hair multiplication website in the next 4 weeks*, which will explain a lot of their work and findings. That is definitely a good sign in my eyes :-)


 i can't wait to see this!!!!

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Most likely without the help of a hair surgeon. It's obvious.


 The best-case delivery IMO would be a topical + Derma Roller.  For anyone interested, here is one possible delivery method:
Skin Printer

_35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant 1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice. Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_

----------


## sdsurfin

the more i think about it, the more i'm sure that no one is gonna cure hairloss until they can do it with gene editing in the far future.  Next time you see a totally bald man, just think about it-  Even if you manage to make a new follicle in a lab (big if still), you still have to get that thing to a) grow in the right direction and cycle (who in the hell know how they can accomplish this, the only way i can think is to grow an entire follicular unit and implant each one carefully like a HT) and b) get that thing to thrive in fibrotic, totally inhospitable bald tissue, when your entire body, and all the cells in your skin are telling that thing to fall apart, as well as telling all the surrounding fat and tissues to not support it and fall apart too.  Curing baldness is like curing aging or curing the length of someones legs or the color of their skin.  So much is involved in giving you your exact pattern of hair loss, i think that until they are able to completely regrow an entire scalp, with skin and all supporting structures, that this is all pretty much useless.  

It will be done, but certainly not anytime that matters to us. sure, treatments like replicel and CB and such might help to lose hair more slowly or lose less, but even those are a ways off, and at least in my opinion, running shit on my head and paying lots of money to keep treating something that is inevitable anyway is far less appealing than just shaving the lot off and saying screw it.  stem cell science is certainly interesting, but all this optimistic cure talk just because someone managed to not lose all the inductivity of one cell type is nonsense.  when you really look at a bald scalp you can see how far off we still are, no amount of DP cells are gonna give you a perfect head of hair.

----------


## JZA70

> get that thing to thrive in fibrotic, totally inhospitable bald tissue, when your entire body, and all the cells in your skin are telling that thing to fall apart, as well as telling all the surrounding fat and tissues to not support it and fall apart too.


 Considering current transplanted hairs survive fine in the recipient area, I don't think this will be a problem.

----------


## sascha

> the more i think about it, the more i'm sure that no one is gonna cure hairloss until they can do it with gene editing in the far future.  Next time you see a totally bald man, just think about it-  Even if you manage to make a new follicle in a lab (big if still), you still have to get that thing to a) grow in the right direction and cycle (who in the hell know how they can accomplish this, the only way i can think is to grow an entire follicular unit and implant each one carefully like a HT) and b) get that thing to thrive in fibrotic, totally inhospitable bald tissue, when your entire body, and all the cells in your skin are telling that thing to fall apart, as well as telling all the surrounding fat and tissues to not support it and fall apart too.  Curing baldness is like curing aging or curing the length of someones legs or the color of their skin.  So much is involved in giving you your exact pattern of hair loss, i think that until they are able to completely regrow an entire scalp, with skin and all supporting structures, that this is all pretty much useless.  
> 
> It will be done, but certainly not anytime that matters to us. sure, treatments like replicel and CB and such might help to lose hair more slowly or lose less, but even those are a ways off, and at least in my opinion, running shit on my head and paying lots of money to keep treating something that is inevitable anyway is far less appealing than just shaving the lot off and saying screw it.  stem cell science is certainly interesting, but all this optimistic cure talk just because someone managed to not lose all the inductivity of one cell type is nonsense.  when you really look at a bald scalp you can see how far off we still are, no amount of DP cells are gonna give you a perfect head of hair.


 I do not want to be rude or anything, but what are you doing here then?
I never understood your posts and have the feeling that you work for some kind or hair transplant surgeon. the way you present yourself on this forum is just weird man.
a) I get it that you spoke with Dr Xu and think that he is the best of the best, but there are also other researchers out there
b) Dr Gardner answered our questions and the subtext was, in my opion, "if somebody cracks it things can develop fast". angeling, positioning, don´t you think people thought about such things at the beginning of their journey.
c) Why even think about a CURE now, first there will be treatments. Something like Replicel, even with their current 10 - 15 or maybe 20% results, can give you solid results, this is great stuff. Maybe the germans have something cool. Maybe CB can replace Propecia and some kind of PGD2 inhibitor (bimatoprost) hits the market sooner than you think. 

I just don´t get the negative guys on here. If I would think this is a lost I would not spend as much time on here as you do.

----------


## bananana

> I do not want to be rude or anything, but what are you doing here then?
> I never understood your posts and have the feeling that you work for some kind or hair transplant surgeon. the way you present yourself on this forum is just weird man.
> a) I get it that you spoke with Dr Xu and think that he is the best of the best, but there are also other researchers out there
> b) Dr Gardner answered our questions and the subtext was, in my opion, "if somebody cracks it things can develop fast". angeling, positioning, don´t you think people thought about such things at the beginning of their journey.
> c) Why even think about a CURE now, first there will be treatments. Something like Replicel, even with their current 10 - 15 or maybe 20% results, can give you solid results, this is great stuff. Maybe the germans have something cool. Maybe CB can replace Propecia and some kind of PGD2 inhibitor (bimatoprost) hits the market sooner than you think. 
> 
> I just don´t get the negative guys on here. If I would think this is a lost I would not spend as much time on here as you do.


 Exactly.

----------


## brocktherock

Also, they never will call it a cure. The recent development with the AA Yale patient showed that. I consider that a full blown cure but they will never be that black and white about it which is understandable.

----------


## Arashi

> the more i think about it, the more i'm sure that no one is gonna cure hairloss until they can do it with gene editing in the far future.  Next time you see a totally bald man, just think about it-  Even if you manage to make a new follicle in a lab (big if still), you still have to get that thing to a) grow in the right direction and cycle (who in the hell know how they can accomplish this, the only way i can think is to grow an entire follicular unit and implant each one carefully like a HT) and b) get that thing to thrive in fibrotic, totally inhospitable bald tissue, when your entire body, and all the cells in your skin are telling that thing to fall apart, as well as telling all the surrounding fat and tissues to not support it and fall apart too.


 First of all, they already DID create a follicle in the lab. Ok it wasn't a 'perfect follicle' just yet, but they did create one, producing human hair (albeit not cosmetically viable). Secondly the points you mention dont seem that hard to solve: Team Tsuji already managed the angle problem by guiding the hair with a nylon thread. Implanting those could most probably be automated by an ATRAS-like robot. And about the surroundings: what if you just would combine the technique with a FUE ? You extract a graft, transplant it onto the recipient and then implant the bio-engineered follicle in the donor in the location where you extracted the graft, so it's in a MUCH more hair-follicle friendly environment.

And maybe the 'angle problem' isnt even a problem at all ! Remember how Jahoda implanted DSC cells onto his wife's arm and a perfect hair grew ? Wouldnt it make sense that the HF found a natural angle itself, just like it works on a newborn baby ? That's exactly what seems to have happened in Jahoda's case !

I do agree with Sascha, you should talk to some other researchers, not just Dr Xu, that guy seems to have gotten the best of you with his negative talks ! Hopefully Desmond will post some good news from Lauster's camp on wednesday, cant wait !!

----------


## hellouser

> Remember how Jahoda implanted DSC cells onto his wife's arm and a perfect hair grew ?


 This is evidence that Replicel's method can and should work. 

HOWEVER, would this not also give the impression that fatty tissue is necessary for growth from cells and the fatty tissue from areas outside of the scalp are capable of providing this? Thus, could it not be possible to do some fat grafting on balding alreas and inject cultured DSC cells weeks later?

----------


## joachim

> First of all, they already DID create a follicle in the lab. Ok it wasn't a 'perfect follicle' just yet, but they did create one, producing human hair (albeit not cosmetically viable). Secondly the points you mention dont seem that hard to solve: Team Tsuji already managed the angle problem by guiding the hair with a nylon thread. Implanting those could most probably be automated by an ATRAS-like robot. And about the surroundings: what if you just would combine the technique with a FUE ? You extract a graft, transplant it onto the recipient and then implant the bio-engineered follicle in the donor in the location where you extracted the graft, so it's in a MUCH more hair-follicle friendly environment.
> 
> And maybe the 'angle problem' isnt even a problem at all ! Remember how Jahoda implanted DSC cells onto his wife's arm and a perfect hair grew ? Wouldnt it make sense that the HF found a natural angle itself, just like it works on a newborn baby ? That's exactly what seems to have happened in Jahoda's case !
> 
> I do agree with Sascha, you should talk to some other researchers, not just Dr Xu, that guy seems to have gotten the best of you with his negative talks ! Hopefully Desmond will post some good news from Lauster's camp on wednesday, cant wait !!


 have to agree. the workaround with the normal FUE and just repair the extraction sites with bioengineered hair seems a nice backup plan.

even if you can't get back the full natural density of 40.000 hairs or so many people would be satisfied with 10.000 already... you can create some good coverage with 10.000 hairs. this is far better than being completely bald.

lab grown hair is definitely coming somewhen, even if it's 10 years away from a commercial release.

----------


## brocktherock

Look how far the progress we know about has came in the last year. Almost overnight they cured AA from someone we've never heard of. Also Des noticed that all the progress reported at congress was from about 18 months ago so they are working from the shadows. More and more teams are emerging with different approaches. People are building off of each others knowledge. The timeline guessing game is always a losing battle but I got to say the recent momentum on the research and overall interest in finding a cure is very much inspiring.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Just took a look at this for the first time, VERY interesting stuff! Do you know if Dr. Cooley is continuing his studies? Is Dr. Cole continuing his ACell studies?
> 
> FTL


 Sorry for the late reply.  We are transitioning from ACell to AmnioFix.  I believe Dr. Cooley is using AmnioFix as well.

From the MiMedx Website:

"Amniotic Membrane Description

Human amniotic membrane is comprised of the innermost layer of the placenta and lines the amniotic cavity. The membrane is composed of multiple layers including a single layer of epithelial cells, a basement membrane and an avascular connective tissue matrix. The tissues of the placenta present a very complex interrelationship of materials that possess numerous physiologic characteristics, that can in turn change in importance with the appropriate stage of gestation.  During pregnancy, the placenta permits the passage of nutrients, metabolites and metabolic gases, and provides physical and immunological protection to the developing fetus.  In addition, it produces a variety of steroids and important metabolic hormones.8

Amniotic membrane is a unique material and its composition contains collagen types I, III, IV, V, and VII.  Amniotic membrane is composed of structural extracellular matrix (ECM), that also contains specialized proteins fibronectin, laminins, proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans. In addition, amniotic membrane contains essential, active, healing growth factors such as epidermal growth factor (EGF), transforming growth factor beta (TGF-b), fibroblast growth factor (FGF), and platelet derived growth factor (PDGF).8 Amniotic tissues have shown little to no HLA-A, B, C antigens and β2 microglobulin.3"

_35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant 1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice. Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Sorry for the late reply.  We are transitioning from ACell to AmnioFix.  I believe Dr. Cooley is using AmnioFix as well.
> 
> From the MiMedx Website:
> 
> "Amniotic Membrane Description
> 
> Human amniotic membrane is comprised of the innermost layer of the placenta and lines the amniotic cavity. The membrane is composed of multiple layers including a single layer of epithelial cells, a basement membrane and an avascular connective tissue matrix. The tissues of the placenta present a very complex interrelationship of materials that possess numerous physiologic characteristics, that can in turn change in importance with the appropriate stage of gestation.  During pregnancy, the placenta permits the passage of nutrients, metabolites and metabolic gases, and provides physical and immunological protection to the developing fetus.  In addition, it produces a variety of steroids and important metabolic hormones.8
> 
> Amniotic membrane is a unique material and its composition contains collagen types I, III, IV, V, and VII.  Amniotic membrane is composed of structural extracellular matrix (ECM), that also contains specialized proteins fibronectin, laminins, proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans. In addition, amniotic membrane contains essential, active, healing growth factors such as epidermal growth factor (EGF), transforming growth factor beta (TGF-b), fibroblast growth factor (FGF), and platelet derived growth factor (PDGF).8 Amniotic tissues have shown little to no HLA-A, B, C antigens and β2 microglobulin.3"
> ...


 

Thanks for the reply 35yr...it's good to know the research continues and we are using a more promising product now. I hope Dr. Wesley is looking into this and not just ACell as well.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Thanks for the reply 35yr...it's good to know the research continues and we are using a more promising product now. I hope Dr. Wesley is looking into this and not just ACell as well.


 FYI:
Amniotic membrane-derived cells inhibit proliferation of cancer cell lines by inducing cell cycle arrest.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22260183

Should the most effective "cure" for androgenic alopecia end up being a form of stem cell therapy, amniotic membrane-derived cells could play a role in reducing or possibly eliminating the cancer risk.

Just to be clear... About the placenta from MedicineNet:

"Afterbirth: The placenta and fetal membranes that are expelled from the uterus following the baby's birth. Hence, the "afterbirth." The placenta is what joins the mother and fetus. It also permits the flow of oxygen and nutrients to the fetus besides the release of carbon dioxide and waste products from the fetus to the mother. *As a uniquely disposable organ*, the placenta is disk-shaped and at full term, measures about 7 inches (18 cm) in diameter and little under less than 2 inches (4 cm) thick. The fetal membranes - the chorion is the outer one and the amnion is the inner one - envelop the embryo and contain the amniotic fluid. The word "afterbirth" entered the English language in the 16th century."

_35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant 1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice. Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_

----------


## sdsurfin

So you're gonna take all the follicles on the back of your head and put them on top, and then try to put new follicles into the removed areas on the back? Sounds pretty risky.  Not sure any doc is going to be willing to do that until they have a pretty strong guarantee that whatever new follicles they are implanting are perfectly viable to grow.  Not to mention that is a huge set of procedures.  Way too much for me to care enough about doing.  I would definitely leave the back of my head alone if they could implant all new follicles on top, but I really dont see that happening anytime in the next decade or two.  eventually, yes it will probably will happen, but the hurdles are still immense.  Dr. Xu isnt particularly negative, he's at the forefront of this stuff, and is one of the few people making brand new epithelial cells, and probably new DP cells from scratch.  all that takes a ton of time and money though.  Even Dr. Gardner said that once they crack the inductivity issues, there need to be co-therapies to keep the scalp healthy.  So basically, another whole half of a cure that no one has even come close to figuring out yet.  we have one half that still needs a ton of work and another that hasn't even really started. don't hold your breath.

----------


## nameless

> So you're gonna take all the follicles on the back of your head and put them on top, and then try to put new follicles into the removed areas on the back? Sounds pretty risky.  Not sure any doc is going to be willing to do that until they have a pretty strong guarantee that whatever new follicles they are implanting are perfectly viable to grow.  Not to mention that is a huge set of procedures.  Way too much for me to care enough about doing.  I would definitely leave the back of my head alone if they could implant all new follicles on top, but I really dont see that happening anytime in the next decade or two.  eventually, yes it will probably will happen, but the hurdles are still immense.  Dr. Xu isnt particularly negative, he's at the forefront of this stuff, and is one of the few people making brand new epithelial cells, and probably new DP cells from scratch.  all that takes a ton of time and money though.  Even Dr. Gardner said that once they crack the inductivity issues, there need to be co-therapies to keep the scalp healthy.  So basically, another whole half of a cure that no one has even come close to figuring out yet.  we have one half that still needs a ton of work and another that hasn't even really started. don't hold your breath.


 You're right and why are we even talking about this when all we have to do is re-create the treatment that was used in the adipose stem cell treatment AAPE study that we are all aware of?  All we need to do is mix AAPE with the other ingredients that those researchers used and treat ourselves with it in the exact same method that those researchers used and we will all get back a good amount of hair. I don't understand why we are even talking about anything else.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> So you're gonna take all the follicles on the back of your head and put them on top, and then try to put new follicles into the removed areas on the back? Sounds pretty risky.  Not sure any doc is going to be willing to do that until they have a pretty strong guarantee that whatever new follicles they are implanting are perfectly viable to grow.  Not to mention that is a huge set of procedures.  Way too much for me to care enough about doing.  I would definitely leave the back of my head alone if they could implant all new follicles on top, but I really dont see that happening anytime in the next decade or two.  eventually, yes it will probably will happen, but the hurdles are still immense.  Dr. Xu isnt particularly negative, he's at the forefront of this stuff, and is one of the few people making brand new epithelial cells, and probably new DP cells from scratch.  all that takes a ton of time and money though.  Even Dr. Gardner said that once they crack the inductivity issues, there need to be co-therapies to keep the scalp healthy.  So basically, another whole half of a cure that no one has even come close to figuring out yet.  we have one half that still needs a ton of work and another that hasn't even really started. don't hold your breath.


 Why don't you take your negative attitude and go sit in a hole. Seriously why do you even come to the forum? You contribute nothing but negativity. Yeah, we are probably about 10 years or so from having this sort of cure on the market, but it's going to come and science is advancing rapidly. Relax

----------


## sdsurfin

It's not about being negative. I'm just laying down the realness.  I think most guys on here who are under 25 are probably going to be able to do a lot about their hair, and maybe see something really approaching a full cure.  For people over 30 it's probably going to come once we're too old and crusty to care.  I could certainly be wrong, but I'm just trying to shed some perspective on everything that has been reported- most of the people on here can't put two sentences together, never mind understand what these researchers are up to.  I applaud Desmond, the dude has obvious charisma and positivity. that's much more important than hair.  But it's helpful to understand where we're actually at in order to know how best to help the process.  I'm getting pretty frustrated with Dr. Xu's lack of reply vis a vis the crowdfunding possibility. Anxiously awaiting the news about Lauster's team, though I'm keeping my expectations low. If they are really the most advanced, we should get behind them. more money always helps, and I do trust german engineering, that country is solid when it comes to a lot of things.

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## sascha

FearTheLoss thumps up to you man.
And sdsurfin what makes you think you understood more than e.g I did?
Do you know where we are at? I am pumped to hear it than, please tell me  :Smile: 
Wasn´t there a huge controversity about the approach of Xu and other researchers anyway?

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## Arashi

So, today is the day Desmond will post about Lauster !!! Can't wait !!!

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## Aik82

> It's not about being negative. I'm just laying down the realness.  I think most guys on here who are under 25 are probably going to be able to do a lot about their hair, and maybe see something really approaching a full cure.  For people over 30 it's probably going to come once we're too old and crusty to care.  I could certainly be wrong, but I'm just trying to shed some perspective on everything that has been reported- most of the people on here can't put two sentences together, never mind understand what these researchers are up to.  I applaud Desmond, the dude has obvious charisma and positivity. that's much more important than hair.  But it's helpful to understand where we're actually at in order to know how best to help the process.  I'm getting pretty frustrated with Dr. Xu's lack of reply vis a vis the crowdfunding possibility. Anxiously awaiting the news about Lauster's team, though I'm keeping my expectations low. If they are really the most advanced, we should get behind them. more money always helps, and I do trust german engineering, that country is solid when it comes to a lot of things.


 I agree with you. As I said to Hellouser sometime a go after reading and watching first news coming from Korea: most of us will be bald when and if something real comes out. Let's hope we are wrong.

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## Arashi

Soooo desmond ... Lauster stuff ready ?  :Smile: 

Actually it's thursday morning 5:22 AM, hopefully everything is ok and Desmond is going to post his stuff today instead of yesterday ...

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## joachim

> Soooo desmond ... Lauster stuff ready ? 
> 
> Actually it's thursday morning 5:22 AM, hopefully everything is ok and Desmond is going to post his stuff today instead of yesterday ...


 don't you have a private email contact to him?
make some fire under his ass =)

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## nameless

> I agree with you. As I said to Hellouser sometime a go after reading and watching first news coming from Korea: most of us will be bald when and if something real comes out. Let's hope we are wrong.


 I totally disagree with you. I don't even have the slightest inkling why you believe what you believe. Look at the study below and it tells us how we can get a good amount of hair back in the very near term"

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

I really do not understand why more of us are not working together to find a way to make this treatment available to us. This stuff can clearly get us back a good amount of hair so we will be satisfied with our hair while we wait for cell based therapies to become effective. 


We need to do exactly what was done in the above study. If we do that we have a very good probability of regaining enough hair so that we can comfortably wait for something better to come along. And the best thing about it is that if we work together we could find a way to get this treatment very soon. I think we could probably get it by the end of the year if we work together. 

I emailed the one doctor in the study who has an email address 2 weeks ago. He has not responded. That tells me that this study is the real deal and this treatment is the real deal because if he was some charlatan he would have been all over me with immediate reply after reply after reply trying to get my money. But he's not. 

This treatment is our short-term answer and we all should work together so that we can get this treatment. And we should do the treatment exactly the same as the scientists in the study did it with no deviation from what they did. What they did is complicated but we should do exactly what they did. 

They started with adipose stem cell extract. Then they added some ingredients of their own and created a mixture. They injected this mixture into the scalp skin periodically at intervals not just one date. They also created a topical form of the mixture for subjects to use and the subjects also used that. We should do the exact same thing and if we do then we should get the same great results.

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## sdsurfin

> FearTheLoss thumps up to you man.
> And sdsurfin what makes you think you understood more than e.g I did?
> Do you know where we are at? I am pumped to hear it than, please tell me 
> Wasn´t there a huge controversity about the approach of Xu and other researchers anyway?


 I have no idea how much you understand. Judging by the way you write, probably not a lot. And I don't seem to remember any controversy about anything Dr. Xu is doing.  He's basically where everyone else is at: trying to create something that resembles an inductive hair germ, and also trying to find a way to multiply or make enough DP cells in order to construct these germs.  Whether they can expand the cells and then restore inductivity is yet to be known- it might be necessary to make them from scratch, which is what Dr. Xu is working on. I really would love to be hopeful and think that in 8-10 years they could be putting hair back on bald guys, but the evidence for that just doesnt stack up. clinical trials alone can take longer than that, and thy haven't even really taken the first steps.  my best hope is that something like replicel or histogen or even CB (though Im doubtful about the efficacy and release date for that too, not to mention rubbing topicals on your head every day is lame) comes out in the next decade and is good for maintaining. I'd be pretty happy with that.

----------


## sdsurfin

That adipose treatment seems like it could help maintain a bit.  Hard to tell since the most dramatic results on a male were on a guy taking finasteride. Also seems like it would be expensive, 4 treatments and then who knows how often you have to re-up, probably several times a year. that could pretty much break the bank if you're not a millionaire. Would be interesting to see it tested in the USA, you guys should definitely get the HT doctors to look at it. What about Dr. Cole?

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## sdsurfin

Plus nameless if you think anyone can do this themselves you are retarded.  Even HT docs don't have the proper facilities do do this kind of thing yet.

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## DeuceWillis

Desmond, bring forth the good news!

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## sascha

> I have no idea how much you understand. Judging by the way you write, probably not a lot. And I don't seem to remember any controversy about anything Dr. Xu is doing.  He's basically where everyone else is at: trying to create something that resembles an inductive hair germ, and also trying to find a way to multiply or make enough DP cells in order to construct these germs.  Whether they can expand the cells and then restore inductivity is yet to be known- it might be necessary to make them from scratch, which is what Dr. Xu is working on. I really would love to be hopeful and think that in 8-10 years they could be putting hair back on bald guys, but the evidence for that just doesnt stack up. clinical trials alone can take longer than that, and thy haven't even really taken the first steps.  my best hope is that something like replicel or histogen or even CB (though Im doubtful about the efficacy and release date for that too, not to mention rubbing topicals on your head every day is lame) comes out in the next decade and is good for maintaining. I'd be pretty happy with that.


 You are right, I probably do not understand everything, because I don´t want to, I have better things to do. But coming here every day to make negative posts, like you do isn´t very smart too. Never heard of it? Well than you didn`t understand a lot either my friend. Heard of Dr. Yamanaka? Dr. Xu(not your secret lover, another one)?

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## nameless

> Plus nameless if you think anyone can do this themselves you are retarded.  Even HT docs don't have the proper facilities do do this kind of thing yet.


 
Retarded? Dude you need to grow up. 

And the study results are much better than merely maintaining. There is considerable regrowth.

That aside, I never said do it ourselves. I don't even think it could be done in America except as clinical trial. But there are places in the world where it could be done.

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## sdsurfin

> You are right, I probably do not understand everything, because I don´t want to, I have better things to do. But coming here every day to make negative posts, like you do isn´t very smart too. Never heard of it? Well than you didn`t understand a lot either my friend. Heard of Dr. Yamanaka? Dr. Xu(not your secret lover, another one)?


 haha. i wish he was my secret lover, maybe he'd grow my hair back haha.

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## Desmond84

Stepping into the unknown always carries the risk of failure. But as long as the reward outweighs failure it's always worthwhile at least in my mind anyway. P.S. What's the point of being miserable and negative when positivity can make every day better than it would have been.

Also Dr Lindner and Atac are really enthusiastic about how close they are! I got the feeling they are holding back on something big. And now that they're launching their hair cloning website, I'm even more certain. 

What really blew me away was they were trialling with 3D cultures, and super low adherent culturing surfaces (polycarbonates) in early 2011! That's way before Jahoda and the taiwanese. They're just not publishing all their findings. 

I think the sceptics will have a healthy surprise in the next 2 years  :Smile:

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## sdsurfin

> Stepping into the unknown always carries the risk of failure. But as long as the reward outweighs failure it's always worthwhile at least in my mind anyway. P.S. What's the point of being miserable and negative when positivity can make every day better than it would have been.
> 
> Also Dr Lindner and Atac are really enthusiastic about how close they are! I got the feeling they are holding back on something big. And now that they're launching their hair cloning website, I'm even more certain. 
> 
> What really blew me away was they were trialling with 3D cultures, and super low adherent culturing surfaces (polycarbonates) in early 2011! That's way before Jahoda and the taiwanese. They're just not publishing all their findings. 
> 
> I think the sceptics will have a healthy surprise in the next 2 years


 Agreed about optimism, and I admire your ability to stay light.  Hope you're right about progress too! Science is definitely making larger leaps than ever. what ever happened to the Lindner presentation and interview though? Thanks desmond

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## hellouser

> what ever happened to the Lindner presentation and interview though? Thanks desmond


 https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...-Technology%29

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## BoSox

> And now that they're launching their hair cloning website, I'm even more certain.


 Is this website up yet? If so, link?

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## hellouser

> Is this website up yet? If so, link?


 This may be of some help:

http://www.tissuse.com/

Notice that Dr. Uwe Marx is heading the site... but its a general site, not so much dedicated to hair cloning.

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## Sogeking

> Stepping into the unknown always carries the risk of failure. But as long as the reward outweighs failure it's always worthwhile at least in my mind anyway. P.S. What's the point of being miserable and negative when positivity can make every day better than it would have been.
> 
> Also Dr Lindner and Atac are really enthusiastic about how close they are! I got the feeling they are holding back on something big. And now that they're launching their hair cloning website, I'm even more certain. 
> 
> What really blew me away was they were trialling with 3D cultures, and super low adherent culturing surfaces (polycarbonates) in early 2011! That's way before Jahoda and the taiwanese. They're just not publishing all their findings. 
> 
> I think the sceptics will have a healthy surprise in the next 2 years


 No offense Desmond but this is at least a decade  away from practical usage. I don't want to do nothing while waiting for this.

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## nameless

> No offense Desmond but this is at least a decade  away from practical usage. I don't want to do nothing while waiting for this.


 
While we are waiting we should do this:

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

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## rhysmorgan

> While we are waiting we should do this:
> 
> http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf


 This is good...is there any info on if they are releasing it?

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## nameless

I tried to contact the docs who did the testing but they did not respond. But this is not a bad sign. It's actually a good sign. It shows they aren't a bunch of charlatans looking to sell some gimmick. It means that there's a high probability that the study is legit. The people involved aren't trying to sell anything. It appears that they only ran the study to see what would happen. Now we need to figure out a way to get some doctor to try it where it's legal.

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## FREDERIK

Hey, sorry, nothing to do but...is Histogen already dead?
Thanks

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## hellouser

> Hey, sorry, nothing to do but...is Histogen already dead?
> Thanks


 No. It's more like 'histogen is in limbo'

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## Pate

> No. It's more like 'histogen is in limbo'


 Yeah it's not dead but it's not exactly tap dancing. The fact they clearly haven't been able to attract an investor, and the fact they've started to diversify, are both bad signs IMO.

The results were good but not stellar and I don't think they were good enough to really get anybody interested enough to fund the next stage. 

Which is pretty much the story with Aderans too. Ironically the only one to get an investor is Replicel, who seem to have had the worst results of the three. Go figure.

----------


## Sogeking

> Yeah it's not dead but it's not exactly tap dancing. The fact they clearly haven't been able to attract an investor, and the fact they've started to diversify, are both bad signs IMO.
> 
> The results were good but not stellar and I don't think they were good enough to really get anybody interested enough to fund the next stage. 
> 
> Which is pretty much the story with Aderans too. Ironically the only one to get an investor is Replicel, who seem to have had the worst results of the three. Go figure.


  Yes. I myself am confused by this outcome. I still hope REplicel has at least tried to do something to improve effectiveness.
Histogen had some results, but that failed merger cost them...

----------


## rdawg

> Yeah it's not dead but it's not exactly tap dancing. The fact they clearly haven't been able to attract an investor, and the fact they've started to diversify, are both bad signs IMO.
> 
> The results were good but not stellar and I don't think they were good enough to really get anybody interested enough to fund the next stage. 
> 
> Which is pretty much the story with Aderans too. Ironically the only one to get an investor is Replicel, who seem to have had the worst results of the three. Go figure.


 it's possible Replicel had the best theory of the three or showed the japanese company something they really liked so they invested in it. Replicel in theory is very intriguing, just underwhelming with early results.

Still we havent heard from Histogen in over a year and doesnt look like we will any time soon, either way, would it have been much better than BIM or CB which both look to be on track to release within a few years?

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## FearTheLoss

the replicel results we saw were very early on..i guarantee they had better results in order to get the investors money

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## hellouser

> the replicel results we saw were very early on..i guarantee they had better results in order to get the investors money


 If they're culturing in 3D, we should see some results. Which begs the question:

Aderans proved to give some results and completely halt further loss with 2D culturing of DP cells. The industry trolled us once again and pulled funding from finishing Phase III trials (I would have easily paid to halt further loss). 

But why are you still dicking around with all this hypothetical crap about Dr. Jahoda's methods working or not? We know that follicles don't disappear, they simply miniaturize. So why are we NOT currently running trials culturing DP cells in 3D and injecting them back in...? If Replicel is hoping to rejuvenate existing miniaturized follicles, then 3D cultured DP cells injected back in should work similarly and perhaps give better results than their 2D cultured counterparts.

WHY is the industry trolling us so god damn hard?! WHY is everything taking so god damn long?!

----------


## sascha

Hello Desmond I don´t know if you read this stuff but... Would it be possible for you to talk with Spencer about what we found out to clear things up. It seems that a lot of people are more confused than before the WCHR  :Smile:  have a nice one  :Smile:

----------


## FREDERIK

Soooooo?

----------


## JZA70

> Soooooo?


 So instead of *wondering*  if things are 10+ years away, now you* know*.

I'm hoping Jahoda will make a new video snickering about how it's been 30 years since he published his first paper. I have a feeling that everyone who's 25+ will likely not benefit from any of this research.. It'll likely be too late for most of us. 

What's the point of suffering from hair loss during the prime years of your life (20-35) only to get a full mop of hair back when you're 45. Like I said before, it will be SUCH a kick in the teeth if that happens. I don't know about you, but I DON'T want to know what I missed out on during the course of my prime years, no thanks. It's now or never. I have a feeling JFSI would go into an even more depressed state if that happened, seeing how much of his life he missed out on.

It's beyond me why Tsuji Labs, Cotsarelis, Jahoda/Christiano and Lauster's team don't get together under one roof and solve this issue TOGETHER. Unless some sort of major collaboration happens, this could very well take a LONG time. Not to mention, what's so hard about working together ? Each team has valuable information and maybe, just maybe, when they combine their efforts, we might actually have something to look forward too.

----------


## greatjob!

wow I go away for a while and you guys send Desmond to South Korea! Good work guys! However I have to say I am quite disappointed, it seems that we now know for sure nothing is coming soon, I was hoping Follica was getting close. So outside of some out of nowhere cure we are all screwed.

----------


## nameless

> wow I go away for a while and you guys send Desmond to South Korea! Good work guys! However I have to say I am quite disappointed, it seems that we now know for sure nothing is coming soon, I was hoping Follica was getting close. So outside of some out of nowhere cure we are all screwed.


 There is a Histogen-like treatment that would probably give a bunch of us back a satisfying amount of hair and protect it but for some reason I can't fathom we are not pursuing it. It is possible that we could get it soon but we are ignoring it for no good reason. I'm starting to think that the guys are more interested in griping instead of being pro-active.

----------


## Haircure

> There is a Histogen-like treatment that would probably give a bunch of us back a satisfying amount of hair and protect it but for some reason I can't fathom we are not pursuing it. It is possible that we could get it soon but we are ignoring it for no good reason. I'm starting to think that the guys are more interested in griping instead of being pro-active.


 Then do something yourself rather than relying on others here to start and do it for you, because let's face it, that's what you really want. All you do is post pro-AAPE posts and tell others to stop whining, but are too lazy to do it yourself. What's incredibly ironic here is that the biggest whiner here is you, I mean just look at your past posts. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

----------


## greatjob!

So I see that not much has changed on the forum while I was gone lol

----------


## nameless

> Then do something yourself rather than relying on others here to start and do it for you, because let's face it, that's what you really want. All you do is post pro-AAPE posts and tell others to stop whining, but are too lazy to do it yourself. What's incredibly ironic here is that the biggest whiner here is you, I mean just look at your past posts. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.


 Oh yea, I'm going to set-up an AAPE/HARG clinic in The Bahamas all by myself. LOL! I need help with this. 

It took many of you to simply send a man (Desmond) on a trip to Korea even though there is nothing complicated or expensive about doing so and now you really think that it's appropriate to suggest that one guy can all by himself set-up an AAPE/HARG clinic in one of the few places where doing so would be allowed and get a doctor to attend it for us. Give me a break! Why don't you try doing it all by yourself. You can't even send a guy on a trip to Korea without oodles of help. The undertaking of setting up an AAPE/HARG clinic would be much more complicated. 

But it is doable so if you don't get it done then you can stop blaming the FDA or big drug companies for your hair loss since it will be your own needless failure that keeps you missing so much hair.

----------


## Delphi

Been away for a while, this was a cool effort! Good job pulling it together guys! The thing is, I don't think it's going to change much for people who are trying to treat their hair loss in this decade, but it's interesting to see who's doing what in the world of research!

----------


## Arashi

Again, for anyone interested in the video's: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJn...bGaoOWFS6kRxDQ

----------


## hellouser

> Again, for anyone interested in the video's: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJn...bGaoOWFS6kRxDQ


 Beren Atac's presentation got me thinking:

Why are we relying on creating NEW follicles when we know they still exist in miniaturized form as has been confirmed by Dr. Cotsarelis? They've successfully created 'micro follicles' from scratch... but we already have the 'base' follicle already in our scalps. Why not inject whatever they've created to bond with our existing follicles and see if that revives them back to NORMAL size and grow terminal hairs?

Shouldn't a trial for this already have happened? Why are we wasting so much precious time?!?

----------


## JZA70

Hell, I think one of the major problems with reviving our existing hair is that there's nothing stopping it from being miniaturized again. With brand new bioengineered follicles, they won't have the same genetic predisposition to be sensitive to androgens.

----------


## hellouser

> Hell, I think one of the major problems with reviving our existing hair is that there's nothing stopping it from being miniaturized again. With brand new bioengineered follicles, they won't have the same genetic predisposition to be sensitive to androgens.


 Histogen's mix of growth factors showed to halt miniaturization for up to 2 years. Proper hair follicle stem cells should last MUCH longer. Aderan's 2D cultivated cells permanently halted further hair loss. Just imagine what 3D cultivated stem cells could do, wether they're DSC, MSC or other.

Even if the effects didn't last forever due to DHT, it's still a worthy treatment lightyears ahead of the GARBAGE we have available today.

But what's the point in saying all this when biotechs or researcher's don't give a shit to actually do anything with this possibility?

----------


## JZA70

The problem that I have with Histogen is that it might not be out for many more years. We have teams like Tsuji Lab and Lauster's team who are creating bioengineered hair follicles TODAY. 

By the time Histogen comes out, if ever, one of these other options may very well be available which would make every other treatment obsolete. Histogen would be an awesome bridging treatment, but seeing as how they've been at a standstill for the last while, I just don't think it's worth putting all your eggs in one basket. Something is wrong and they're not telling us. Gail is sitting on a gold mine, she has the potential to rake in billions of dollars from this treatment. HSC would make Fin and Minoxidil history. 

I just don't get why it's not their top priority to get this out to the public ASAP. What aren't they telling us.. Surely they can't be that stupid to not realize the potential that this treatment has. It would revolutionize the hair loss industry, it would be a true 2014-2015 state of the art treatment. 

I really wonder what's actually preventing them from moving forward.

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## TheSwingingGate

Which brings up an interesting point, that maybe I have just simply missed.

Why are these teams attempting to create hair follicles? Is it for a hair loss cure, or is it to further research and testing?

Is hair loss treatment just a side benefit?

If so, IMHO, placing new follicles on an unhealthy scalp would be analogous to building a house on sand.

Granted, it would be better than the treatments present today, but far from a  solution.

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## JZA70

> Is it for a hair loss cure, or is it to further research and testing?


 Both. 




> If so, IMHO, placing new follicles on an unhealthy scalp would be analogous to building a house on sand.


 I don't get why you guys keep saying that. This theory goes against everything about hair transplants. Taking healthy hair and implanting it into unhealthy or harsh environments is a load of crap. If this theory held any water then HT's would've been a failure.

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## IAmAce

I'm new to the forum but know the basics of the hairloss community, I'd read until page 10 but can't go any longer.

Could someone fill me in with what Desmond has learned?

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## nameless

> Histogen's mix of growth factors showed to halt miniaturization for up to 2 years. Proper hair follicle stem cells should last MUCH longer. Aderan's 2D cultivated cells permanently halted further hair loss. Just imagine what 3D cultivated stem cells could do, wether they're DSC, MSC or other.
> 
> Even if the effects didn't last forever due to DHT, it's still a worthy treatment lightyears ahead of the GARBAGE we have available today.
> 
> But what's the point in saying all this when biotechs or researcher's don't give a shit to actually do anything with this possibility?


 Why are you blaming the biotechs and the researchers for your own failings? You yourself talk about how Histogen accomplished good things (with one injection appointment) so you know that the Histogen growth factors could be very beneficial with repeat injections, and you could get a treatment that is almost the exact same right now, but instead of doing that you gripe about researchers and biotechs, even though they are not stopping you from getting that effective treatment. The only things you need to get effective treatment soon is gumption and some willpower.

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## nameless

> The problem that I have with Histogen is that it might not be out for many more years. We have teams like Tsuji Lab and Lauster's team who are creating bioengineered hair follicles TODAY. 
> 
> By the time Histogen comes out, if ever, one of these other options may very well be available which would make every other treatment obsolete. Histogen would be an awesome bridging treatment, but seeing as how they've been at a standstill for the last while, I just don't think it's worth putting all your eggs in one basket. Something is wrong and they're not telling us. Gail is sitting on a gold mine, she has the potential to rake in billions of dollars from this treatment. HSC would make Fin and Minoxidil history. 
> 
> I just don't get why it's not their top priority to get this out to the public ASAP. What aren't they telling us.. Surely they can't be that stupid to not realize the potential that this treatment has. It would revolutionize the hair loss industry, it would be a true 2014-2015 state of the art treatment. 
> 
> I really wonder what's actually preventing them from moving forward.


 
A treatment that is almost the exact same as Histogen is available from the manufacturer right now. It can only be sold to doctors in a few places in the world so getting it would require setting-up shop in one of those few locations, but there is nothing stopping us from getting that done. We are capable of getting that done if we can find the will and the gumption.

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## Desmond84

> placing new follicles on an unhealthy scalp would be analogous to building a house on sand.


 I think it's important to understand that AGA scalp is not "unhealthy" as many think! It is actually perfectly healthy! What's different about it compared to the safe-zone is that its DP cells express a very high number of Androgen receptors that triggers an inflammatory cascade bringing about destruction to the DP cells themselves leading to baldness.

And that is exactly why when you implant a hair graft that doesn't express these androgen receptors will remain fully functional for the rest of your life!

Hope that helps

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## hellouser

> I think it's important to understand that AGA scalp is not "unhealthy" as many think! It is actually perfectly healthy! What's different about it compared to the safe-zone is that its DP cells express a very high number of Androgen receptors that triggers an inflammatory cascade bringing about destruction to the DP cells themselves leading to baldness.
> 
> And that is exactly why when you implant a hair graft that doesn't express these androgen receptors will remain fully functional for the rest of your life!
> 
> Hope that helps


 Is the Taiwanese group still going strong with their DP cell trials? We know 2D cultured DP brought moderate results however halted further loss permanently. Since we also know that follicles are still present in slick scalp although miniaturized, we should be able to revive those follicles to come back to normal size.... if the Taiwanese are running trials with 3D culturing, we should see BETTER results than Aderans. But my *god* why do we have to wait so damn long for any of this to make it to the market?

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## Desmond84

Hell, I just read up on the CB thread. Jesus they're speeding ahead! Great news man...

As soon as the acne version comes out, I'll find a way to tweak it so we can apply it to scalp. Leave that part with me! LOL

Better days are coming my man...CB will be the short-term solution! I can guarantee you that much

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## nameless

> Hell, I just read up on the CB thread. Jesus they're speeding ahead! Great news man...
> 
> As soon as the acne version comes out, I'll find a way to tweak it so we can apply it to scalp. Leave that part with me! LOL
> 
> Better days are coming my man...CB will be the short-term solution! I can guarantee you that much


 What's wrong with the idea of using AAPE/HARG as the short-term solution?

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## Arashi

> What's wrong with the idea of using AAPE/HARG as the short-term solution?


 Please stop spamming threads with your AAPE posts. Nobody cares. Go to dr Nigam, have him inject it and then report back to us how well it works. Or just shut up about it.

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## Haircure

> Please stop spamming threads with your AAPE posts. Nobody cares. Go to dr Nigam, have him inject it and then report back to us how well it works. Or just shut up about it.


  Unfortunately for us it seems this guy is incapable of understanding anything and likely won't quit his stupid spam posts. It seems it's obligatory for him to annoy the members of every forum he joins.

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## ShookOnes

once they do discover how to clone and multiply, will we all have to fly to china and it done? China already has a billion people, what would the waitlist be? If here in America, who has the labs to get this done? And will there be FDA trials..? If this is the cure how long do you guys think we will have to wait?

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## Sogeking

Hey man if you care so much about this. Why don't you go to Korea and test it. I mean take before and after photos and that is the best way to convince others.
I'm waiting for Alias to tell us if the Austrian guys with their fat stem cells can do something.

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## Arashi

> Unfortunately for us it seems this guy is incapable of understanding anything and likely won't quit his stupid spam posts. It seems it's obligatory for him to annoy the members of every forum he joins.


 Tell me about it man... Today I was visiting some other forums, JarJar is spamming all of them with his stupid "Nigam injecting AAPE in the Bahama's" idea. It's not funny anymore ... He really wants people to go to a butcher like Nigam. How crazy is that ...

BTW regarding Nigam, I just found this post from Mwamba: https://imageshack.com/i/kqZBf7ZEj
He did repair work on a HORRIBLE hair transplant (see the 'before' photo). However, this guy seems to be Tom Vercetti !! So, the doctor who did that HORRIBLE job was Nigam.

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## nameless

> Hey man if you care so much about this. Why don't you go to Korea and test it. I mean take before and after photos and that is the best way to convince others.
> I'm waiting for Alias to tell us if the Austrian guys with their fat stem cells can do something.


 
I can't find it in any Korean clinic.

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## nameless

> Hey man if you care so much about this. Why don't you go to Korea and test it. I mean take before and after photos and that is the best way to convince others.
> I'm waiting for Alias to tell us if the Austrian guys with their fat stem cells can do something.


 Sogeking I'm also curious how the fat cell treatment will work out but I have some doubts about it even though I have confidence in the fat cell extract (AAPE). I think that the fat cells might work if you use the right fat cells and if you can get the fat cells to go to the correct locations but I think that is questionable. I think that the AAPE extract will go to the right locations. 

You see the AAPE is a liquid made up of very small particles so the AAPE liquid can get into every nook and cranny of the follicle, but the fat cells themselves are larger than the particles in the AAPE solution, they cells are shaped differently, and the cells are a different substance. I think that the injected cells will have a much harder time getting into the places they would need to get into in order to do the job. I'v seen illustrations of follicles that show healthy fat cells right up snug to the follicles at specific locations. I have doubts that injected cells will find their way to those locations. On the other hand, I think that injected AAPE liquid will find its' way everywhere in and around the follicle so it will end up getting where it's needed. 

Also, different adipose cells secrete different amounts of the growth factors and proteins. Some fat cells secrete 100 times as much of the growth factors and proteins as other fat cells. For this reason you would need to use the correct fat cells. You can't just use any ole fat cells.

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## nameless

> Tell me about it man... Today I was visiting some other forums, JarJar is spamming all of them with his stupid "Nigam injecting AAPE in the Bahama's" idea. It's not funny anymore ... He really wants people to go to a butcher like Nigam. How crazy is that ...
> 
> BTW regarding Nigam, I just found this post from Mwamba: https://imageshack.com/i/kqZBf7ZEj
> He did repair work on a HORRIBLE hair transplant (see the 'before' photo). However, this guy seems to be Tom Vercetti !! So, the doctor who did that HORRIBLE job was Nigam.


 Oh yea I raised the idea of a Caribbean clinic at two websites, not just one. In any case, that is hardly a lot of web sites. And the idea of opening a clinic in the Caribbean is not as bad an idea as you make it out to be. I'm not talking about building a hospital. A clinic can be a rented house or a rented one-room office. When I was vacationing in Mexico once my brother got stung by a stingray and we took him to a local clinic. It was a one room office with a procedure type of chair in the middle of the room. My brother sat in the procedure chair and the doctor extracted the stinger from his foot. This one room office could have been leased for all I know and if that is the case it would not be very expensive per month. 

An AAPE/HARG clinic would not require having a lot of medical instruments or staff or the like. AAPE/HARG is an injected treatment. You wouldn't have a lot of expensive medical equipment there. You wouldn't have any expensive medical equipment there at all. You would rent/lease a one room office, or 2 bedroom house, and you would do AAPE/HARG injections there and nothing more. It sounds inexpensive to me. You are making it out to be that I'm suggesting some huge hospital but that is not what I'm suggesting at all.

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## somethingsomething

> When I was vacationing in Mexico once my brother got stung by a stingray and we took him to a local clinic. It was a one room office with a procedure type of chair in the middle of the room. My brother sat in the procedure chair and the doctor extracted the stinger from his foot. This one room office could have been leased for all I know and if that is the case it would not be very expensive per month.


 I have never seen you on topic once. You are polluting the threads with this . Start your own thread about it. This has nothing to do with WCHR 2014. Right?

Then you start talking about a stingray incident with your brother.  :Confused: 
Are you even being serious now? How can you not comprehend that people who reads these threads click on them to get information on what they are searching for. Make your own god damn thread already. Wasn't it you who had above 125 IQ? I seen atleast 10 people telling you this so get it through your head.

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## hellouser

> New video:
> 
> Dr Claire Higgins: Reprogramming Human DP Cells by Spheroid Culture Restores Hair Inductivity 
> 
> 
> 
> From her presentation she showed this, a microscopic image of scalp skin:
> 
> 
> ...


 Another video from Claire Higgins:

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## sascha

Did not know where to put this link and did not wan to start a new thread:
http://blogs.fda.gov/fdavoice/index.....IVCXlfqc.uxfs 

I hope I am allowed to do so. I am sorry if otherwise.

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