# Hair Transplants > Hair Transplant: Start Your Own Topic >  22 Year Old Seeking Hair Transplant Advice

## Anthony115

Hello,

I am 22 and have been losing my hair (hairline and crown) since I was about 16 or 17. Once it became an obvious problem at 19 (around Norwood III) I decided to start Finasteride. This stabilized my loss and even gave me some density on the top and crown back. The crown area is still a bit thin but in general I'm happy with the density I got back. The biggest issue is my hairline. I prefer to style my hair up every morning in order to maximize the appearance of density up top, but the hairline is still so receded that I can never get the look I am after. I feel like my friends, and acquaintances see me as a person who is on his way towards being bald. 

I have met with Dr. Robert Haber and felt very comfortable that he is a skilled and reputable surgeon, and he recommended 1200 grafts via FUT into my hairline to bring the temples down to meet my widows peak. This would result in a straight hairline about 7 millimeters up on my forehead, which from what I understand is on the higher side but still natural in appearance. The following week, I scheduled my procedure and put down my deposit, but now I am getting major cold feet. 

Since the day I realized the finasteride was not going to bring my hairline back, I have been saving for this procedure (about 3 years).  But now that the possibility of this procedure is real I am worried that I might be committing myself to a life of endless procedures, research, and paranoia that people will notice the transplant, or the scar. And I worry that if the Finasteride stops working for me and I am forced to shave my head, I will have scaring in both the donor site and the recipient sites. Dr. Habers told me that if I end up unsatisfied with my scaring I can always opt for an SMP procedure to camouflage the donor areas, and give the appearance of more density in my crown. Does anyone have experience with SMP camouflage? And if so were you satisfied with the result? Also, would it look strange if I filled in my FUT scar with SMP and then for whatever reason needed to shave my head bic razor bald? I feel like Id probably have to keep a certain amount of stubble on my head for the SMP to look natural unless I had the procedure done on my whole scalp.   

Success for me would be that the Finasteride continues to maintain my current hair, my FUT scar is concealed under hair cut to a #3 or #4 guard, and that Dr. Haber is able to create a non-receded hairline with natural density. I will continue to use Finasteride and minoxidil indefinitely but besides that Id like to never worry about my hair again. Is this goal realistic? Or do I need to change my expectations before moving forward? 

So I guess my question is Have any of you had a similar experience to me or had work done by Dr. Haber? Did you decide to go under the knife? Why or why not and did you regret the decision you made? 

I keep going back and forth on whether or not to cancel the reservation which is set for early January. Any advice you guys could offer would be really appreciated. Thank you

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## Driver

IMHO, you are both too early in your hair loss and too young for HT. I myself have not heard of Dr. Haber so I cannot comment on if he is good or bad, but 1200 grafts by FUT for a first procedure is not a lot of gain for a pretty good amount of risk. I would give this a lot more thought before moving forward if I were you.

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## JeanlucBergman

I appreciate that it's a matter of expense and potentially discomfort with going overseas, but 1200 grafts FUT is going to look absolutely terrible with VERY unatural density for what you're after. If I were you, I would go to Turkey where the transplant technology is of a much higher standard, and the prices you will be offered are significantly less, and get the entire front part of your head done at 4000-5000 grafts. Even with fin and minox most people don't hold on to the front forever, however you'll have a much better chance of retaining your crown. Look at the work Koray Erdogan is doing in Turkey, you could probably get 3 times the amount of grafts for the same price from him and get the full front of your head done. Dr. Habers work looks good and I'm sure he'll treat you well, but won't give a great result by any means. 

I don't think age is necessarily an issue with a transplant as long as you consider the future when designing it, and make some effort to future proof. 1200 grafts will not future proof you in the slightest, you'll be back for another within two years if you choose this, and quite frankly it will look terrible in the present. I would outright say don't do it. If you treat your transplant like a fill in job like you're currently doing, no one goes in for just one fill in.

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## JoeTillman

Stop. 

First off, don't listen to Jeanluc. I'm sorry, but no 22 year old should go to Turkey to get 4000 grafts into the "front". Just, no. 

Second, yes, you are too young especially for strip. And while your hair may have thickened from Propecia you're still a NW3V with a thinning forelock. 1200 grafts may give you a "straight" hairline but it will have a low density as Jeanluc said. Your hairline shouldn't be straight to begin with. You should build in some temple recession like that of a NW2 at most.

I do not know Dr. Haber personally, but I have met him and I do think he's a very capable doctor based on cases I've seen but for anyone to suggest that one can "just put SMP into the donor scar" isn't giving you a valid option that has any sort of reliability or consistency.

SMP into donor scars is unpredictable. The pigment can disappear in a matter of weeks or it may stick around and spread into a confluence of color. Scar tissue is different from healthy skin tissue which is why test patches should be performed before fully committing to the procedure. In addition, I've seen several great looking results, of course, but in each one I can see the scar itself and where the SMP is done. In other words, it never makes it go away visually and in most cases it stands out and draws the eye. It would wind up being just one more thing to worry about if you ever did have to shave.

I think ultimately you should have not have a hair transplant and try to accept your current state. Look into using concealers like Dermatch to thicken the crown and forelock area and see how you like that. If you absolutely have to go with surgery then go conservative and try FUE. Don't straighten your hairline. It takes a lot of hair to get what you're talking about and it is hair you can't afford to waste.

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## JeanlucBergman

> Stop. 
> 
> First off, don't listen to Jeanluc. I'm sorry, but no 22 year old should go to Turkey to get 4000 grafts into the "front". Just, no. 
> 
> Second, yes, you are too young especially for strip. And while your hair may have thickened from Propecia you're still a NW3V with a thinning forelock. 1200 grafts may give you a "straight" hairline but it will have a low density as Jeanluc said. Your hairline shouldn't be straight to begin with. You should build in some temple recession like that of a NW2 at most.
> 
> I do not know Dr. Haber personally, but I have met him and I do think he's a very capable doctor based on cases I've seen but for anyone to suggest that one can "just put SMP into the donor scar" isn't giving you a valid option that has any sort of reliability or consistency.
> 
> SMP into donor scars is unpredictable. The pigment can disappear in a matter of weeks or it may stick around and spread into a confluence of color. Scar tissue is different from healthy skin tissue which is why test patches should be performed before fully committing to the procedure. In addition, I've seen several great looking results, of course, but in each one I can see the scar itself and where the SMP is done. In other words, it never makes it go away visually and in most cases it stands out and draws the eye. It would wind up being just one more thing to worry about if you ever did have to shave.
> ...


 He's losing hair at such a rate that by 30 even on fin and minox he's probably going to be a norwood 5-6. I would agree that at the present he should wait, but why not consider an approach to covering the whole head with a transplant, in which case he should pull the hairline back, get it thicker graft wise in the front and top, while a a little thinner in the crown area, and then fill it out with a concealer like you mentioned. I also agree with "Your hairline shouldn't be straight to begin with. You should build in some temple recession like that of a NW2 at most." 

See how many grafts you have, and get a plan for fixing the whole lot, preferably with FUE. It already looks pretty bad and you're a full on balding guy at this point, in a year or 2 probably a bald guy. I don't agree with Joe that a mammoth full head transplant isn't warranted, he's going to be in the same boat at 30 as he currently is where his hair is a mess at 22, and probably hate thinking about it the whole time. Why suffer for another decade? There are enough grafts for better looking hair than he currently has and in Turkey he could afford it, Dr. Haber is quality but very expensive relatively speaking. Certainly though like Joe said, stop and think about the future. Most people who get a transplant don't stop at one. Consider how many grafts you have and how they could be applied across the whole balding area, rather than how this quick fill in will go. It's much better to keep a higher density transplant in the front as this is what frames your face, however across the top and crown you can always use a bit of creative concealer to fill in density.

Also I wouldn't just settle with your local transplant guy, spend 6 months looking into what is out there, the results people get, their approaches, the prices, and also the complications that can arise. Look overseas, the USA isn't any better than anywhere else quite frankly, just more expensive, the only benefit being higher regulations to protect you from a surgeon with bad practice. Find a surgeon who makes their results very public, and there is ample information on across various forums. What Joe said is certainly true in the respect that 1200 grafts isn't going to make a substantial cosmetic difference or look natural, so it isn't worth putting yourself in the situation where you risk complications for little gain, and probably when you'll be coming back for more later.

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## KO1

Hairlines are implanted at high density and using singles, which uses up a lot of grafts. So I am skeptical that you will be happy with 1200, but I could be wrong depending on what hairline you have in mind. At your age and with your restoration goals, there is no need to get FUT. Don't do it. You should definitely consult with a number of different doctors and see what they think.

You are in pretty good shape overall though. You have a bit of a forelock, your midscalp, although I'm sure it's thinning, still has cosmetic coverage. If you stay on your meds, I think bald will be a choice.

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## HTsoon

You have aggressive hair loss for 22, unfortunately at this point determining the "safe" donor zone is shaky at best. By the time you're 30 your crown may dip far down in to the "universal zone", sides may drop and nape may thin, any hair taken from these areas will not only be lost but the surgical scars could be revealed whether it's FUT or FUE. 

Try to buzz your head, if you buzz your head and realize you like it, well then you'll have the cheapest and safest solution, at least try it before spending thousands of dollars on an HT that's not guaranteed to leave you happy, and likely to leave you angry and bitter.

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## Hairbrain

Joe and HTsoon are  absolutely spot on.  Do not listen to Jeanluc! You will not get any better advice than from Joe.  To go to Turkey and get 4000 grafts would be showing all your cards and betting the farm with blinders on....... Joe has not only had 9 transplants, he has been associated and worked with some of the worlds best HT surgeons and has been  in the field for longer than 15 years.  Hes been on both sides of this fence and has seen it all, and because of that his advice is always from the perspective of what is right and fair to the patient.  You will understand this quickly by visiting his site, Hairtransplantmentor.com or listen to him as co-host of TheBaldTruth podcast. 
Good luck and keep us posted.

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## JeanlucBergman

> Joe and HTsoon are  absolutely spot on.  Do not listen to Jeanluc! You will not get any better advice than from Joe.  To go to Turkey and get 4000 grafts would be showing all your cards and betting the farm with blinders on....... Joe has not only had 9 transplants, he has been associated and worked with some of the worlds best HT surgeons and has been  in the field for longer than 15 years.  Hes been on both sides of this fence and has seen it all, and because of that his advice is always from the perspective of what is right and fair to the patient.  You will understand this quickly by visiting his site, Hairtransplantmentor.com or listen to him as co-host of TheBaldTruth podcast. 
> Good luck and keep us posted.


 Joe is a walking encyclopedia of bad decisions and the difficulties of navigating the HT industry. He's certainly a worthy resource for information and worth listening to, however most people these days can get substantially better results and in one or two transplants substantially fix their problems. Turkey is a much better destination than the US for transplants too, that is just a fact.

Having 9 transplants isn't something to brag about either.

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## Hairbrain

> Joe is a walking encyclopedia of bad decisions and the difficulties of navigating the HT industry. He's certainly a worthy resource for information and worth listening to, however most people these days can get substantially better results and in one or two transplants substantially fix their problems. Turkey is a much better destination than the US for transplants too, that is just a fact.
> 
> Having 9 transplants isn't something to brag about either.


 I have personally met Joe and have spent time with him.  There is specific reason he had 9 transplants aside from the first two. Some were for repairing bad work from a different era and others for research and experimentation of various methods . He has helped move this field forward in multitudinous ways in which I have no time to even begin to list.   I can tell you I probably have more experience picking out and critiquing transplants than just about anyone, and to have met Joe I would have never guessed that he ever had any work done.  As far as I know Joe never brags about anything (well aside from maybe how hot is wife is  :Smile:  )  To advise a 22 year old who is experiencing aggresive MPB to run to Turkey, or anywhere for that matter, to get his entire head coverd with 4000 grafts in what could very easily be a NW6 + case is just pure ignorance.  I will not go through the whole litney why that is a bad idea, but let me just propose at least one.  In reality 4000 grafts into a NW6 is no where near enough grafts to even give an illusion of a decent head of hair without at a minimum say leaving the crown.  So what happens after possibly getting into his 40s and becoming a NW6 if not before and you have 4000 sporadically placed grats based on a prior pattern or an assumed future pattern? Chances are great you will have an unatural appearance or one seriously diffused head of hair.  So many NW6 cases are fortunate to get 6000 grafts. Even if he's lucky theres a good chance an additonal  2000 grafts would not fix this type of poorly planned consequence. God forbid a retro thinning of the donor that was used for the first 4000, then it is certainly game over.  Then what?  This is only one of many things that could go wrong.  Aside from a couple of known Turkish IAHRS recommened surgeons why do you say Turkey is a better place than the US?  Price? Price may be a factor however there are so many other factors that go into getting a hair transplant that involves serious considerations and its highly advisable to talk to more than just a single doctor or advocate for that matter.  Saving a potential few grand doesn't mean shit to someone who ends up f'n up his life.  
With all due respect and I mean this sincerely please,  do yourself and everyone on this site a favor and dont just claim someone is an encyclopedia of bad decisions when that individual has given back to this community in ways you can not begin to account for.  You posted in an unrelated thread and advised another individual in order to slow down or stop his hair loss he should try pumpkin seed oil and limiting his masturbation.   If you believe that works for you then that's fine but try to understand  individuals come to this site primarily for proven methods, help and advice that works. That usually means searching out EMPERICAL data and getting advice from qualified doctors or from those who have been there done that. I hope in the future  you will expand your knowledge by doing more reading here than advising.

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## KO1

JeanLuc gave some very bad advice, I second to ignore his comments. Also consider maybe waiting till your mid-twenties (If you can).

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## tedwuji

> Stop. 
> 
> First off, don't listen to Jeanluc. I'm sorry, but no 22 year old should go to Turkey to get 4000 grafts into the "front". Just, no. 
> 
> Second, yes, you are too young especially for strip. And while your hair may have thickened from Propecia you're still a NW3V with a thinning forelock. 1200 grafts may give you a "straight" hairline but it will have a low density as Jeanluc said. Your hairline shouldn't be straight to begin with. You should build in some temple recession like that of a NW2 at most.
> 
> I do not know Dr. Haber personally, but I have met him and I do think he's a very capable doctor based on cases I've seen but for anyone to suggest that one can "just put SMP into the donor scar" isn't giving you a valid option that has any sort of reliability or consistency.
> 
> SMP into donor scars is unpredictable. The pigment can disappear in a matter of weeks or it may stick around and spread into a confluence of color. Scar tissue is different from healthy skin tissue which is why test patches should be performed before fully committing to the procedure. In addition, I've seen several great looking results, of course, but in each one I can see the scar itself and where the SMP is done. In other words, it never makes it go away visually and in most cases it stands out and draws the eye. It would wind up being just one more thing to worry about if you ever did have to shave.
> ...


 In general, what is the ideal age for a hair transplant?

What is the age which ethical surgeons would unanimously agree it is "safe" to get a transplant assuming no donor thinning or any other abnormal occurences? I.e. a good transplant candidate.

Just looking for maybe an average age for strip as everyone is different. I am guessing it is around 35 as Spencer Kobren said he doesnt recommend any guy get FUT under 35 on the radio show before. Thoughts?

Obviously it is not 22. I am 33 and still concerned about the future loss.

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## Hairbrain

> In general, what is the ideal age for a hair transplant?
> 
> What is the age which ethical surgeons would unanimously agree it is "safe" to get a transplant assuming no donor thinning or any other abnormal occurences? I.e. a good transplant candidate.
> 
> Just looking for maybe an average age for strip as everyone is different. I am guessing it is around 35 as Spencer Kobren said he doesnt recommend any guy get FUT under 35 on the radio show before. Thoughts?
> 
> Obviously it is not 22. I am 33 and still concerned about the future loss.


 Good debatable question. Lots of variables to consider. certainly one needs to have stabalized their hair loss, preferably naturally and minimally with finasteride.  Even then there are no guarantees.  I think anyone under 30 is risking it. Just my opinion. I think finding at least two reputable HT surgeons and getting candid advice from them and/or other knowledgeable souces is a great starter. Ultimately the decision comes down to you the patient. If surgery is something one truley desires I'm not sure waiting so late in life makes sense either. I would think wanting to enjoy it during ones more active years is also a consideration.  Your 33 and worried about future loss. Im sure you will be 53 and worried about future loss. Thats one we all share.  Its why some of us continue the drugs indefinitely.

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## KO1

No ideal age really, you have to take a calculated risk. In hair loss, really everything below 40 is young. You'll have to balance how your hair loss will evolve, what you will do if the procedure fails vs whether you can tolerate living like this.

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## richter101

I think the best thing to consider is preparing for the worst, which is "the life of endless procedures".

That's what I'm doing and I'm fine with it because I work my ass off to get money. I rather be rich and with hair then poor and bald.  :Smile: 

I know it sounds easier than it is, but the truth is you can market a product for someone and if you work hard and research non-stop on google you'll have the money. Otherwise, I don't see how going in for an FUE surgery every 4-5 years is a pain. I love the feeling, it's like I'm telling my destiny FU !

*Richter101 is a former patient of Dr. Parsa Mohebi
*
Born Oct 89
Began Seeing Gradual Hair Loss Oct 09
Began Seeing Gradual Hair Gain June 15

My regimen includes:
HT #1 2200 (ARTAS- FUE) grafts at Parsa Mohebi Hair Restoration in Los Angeles in 2016
Finasteride daily, since 2014
Rogaine experimenter from 2012- 13 RIP

Planning HT #2 By End of This Year  :Smile:

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## JeanlucBergman

> Good debatable question. Lots of variables to consider. certainly one needs to have stabalized their hair loss, preferably naturally and minimally with finasteride.  Even then there are no guarantees.  I think anyone under 30 is risking it. Just my opinion. I think finding at least two reputable HT surgeons and getting candid advice from them and/or other knowledgeable souces is a great starter. Ultimately the decision comes down to you the patient. If surgery is something one truley desires I'm not sure waiting so late in life makes sense either. I would think wanting to enjoy it during ones more active years is also a consideration.  Your 33 and worried about future loss. Im sure you will be 53 and worried about future loss. Thats one we all share.  Its why some of us continue the drugs indefinitely.


 Completely ridiculous comment. No one cares about being bald or having a grafts at the front along with a bald top and crown when they're 45 years old. If you're a 20 year old balding guy, why not go for a transplant every few years and look like a guy with a beautiful mane? You shouldn't be sitting there suffering in your 20s because of hairloss, DO something about it and who cares about the future, in a decade there will probably be a cure. In the mean time, saying someone should live their 20s as a balding man is outright stupid. Shame on you, the amount of mens mental health issues that could be solved with decent transplants are huge. And I say Turkey is better than the US because their procedures, densities, aesthetics and graft survival rate is much higher. A quarter of the price of the US, and twice as good quality wise. Anyone who says the US is a good place for a transplant is conning people.

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## JeanlucBergman

> I think the best thing to consider is preparing for the worst, which is "the life of endless procedures".
> 
> That's what I'm doing and I'm fine with it because I work my ass off to get money. I rather be rich and with hair then poor and bald. 
> 
> I know it sounds easier than it is, but the truth is you can market a product for someone and if you work hard and research non-stop on google you'll have the money. Otherwise, I don't see how going in for an FUE surgery every 4-5 years is a pain. I love the feeling, it's like I'm telling my destiny FU !
> 
> *Richter101 is a former patient of Dr. Parsa Mohebi
> *
> Born Oct ’89
> ...


 Well said, why live and suffer in silence because some idiots on a forum who went to dodgy, idiotic American surgeons at $10 grand for 1000 grafts in a back alley in Chicago didn't like their results? Find a good surgeon like Koray Erdogan in Turkey (who is also very competitively priced) and change your life for the better. Very happy for you.

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## Hairbrain

> Completely ridiculous comment. No one cares about being bald or having a grafts at the front along with a bald top and crown when they're 45 years old. If you're a 20 year old balding guy, why not go for a transplant every few years and look like a guy with a beautiful mane? You shouldn't be sitting there suffering in your 20s because of hairloss, DO something about it and who cares about the future, in a decade there will probably be a cure.


 Terrible advice.  Anyone who starts getting transplants at the age of 20 will be chasing his hair loss for decades to come.  Anyone who is balding at 20 will more than likely be a NW6 or 7. There are only so many grafts a NW6 or 7 can have harvested, to just start filling in areas that are thinning at the age of 20 can prove to be disastrous. There are many victims on this site and elsewhere around the world to prove that very case.. There probably isn't one  IAHRS recommended doctor that would ever preform a HT on a 20 year old without a good reason (burn, accident, etc...).  Try consulting with one of them and you will get the same reasoning I am offering here. Waiting for a cure? Really?  I remember 20 years ago claims that a cure was right around the corner (it always is).  A cure has been a threaded topic on this and other sites for decades.  Someday maybe.  Could be 30 years out could be 100.  Who knows. I do know billions of dollars has been spent on the research to no avail.  If the possibility of finding a cure is part of your plan to counter hair loss good luck.  Not to mention the price of a cure. Funny comment about why not go for hair transplants at 20 and keep a beautiful mane.  First transplants can not ever give back original density even for for somebody with limitless donor and I can promise you a balding 20 year old will never have limitless donor.  Be careful who you listen to.  Don't take my advice or especially the advice of anyone ever telling you to have a transplant.  Talk to multiple recommended HT surgeons and get the advice you deserve.  Make you decisions carefully and with time.  Even then there are no guarantees but at least your odds become much better.

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## JeanlucBergman

> Terrible advice.  Anyone who starts getting transplants at the age of 20 will be chasing his hair loss for decades to come.  Anyone who is balding at 20 will more than likely be a NW6 or 7. There are only so many grafts a NW6 or 7 can have harvested, to just start filling in areas that are thinning at the age of 20 can prove to be disastrous. There are many victims on this site and elsewhere around the world to prove that very case.. There probably isn't one  IAHRS recommended doctor that would ever preform a HT on a 20 year old without a good reason (burn, accident, etc...).  Try consulting with one of them and you will get the same reasoning I am offering here. Waiting for a cure? Really?  I remember 20 years ago claims that a cure was right around the corner (it always is).  A cure has been a threaded topic on this and other sites for decades.  Someday maybe.  Could be 30 years out could be 100.  Who knows. I do know billions of dollars has been spent on the research to no avail.  If the possibility of finding a cure is part of your plan to counter hair loss good luck.  Not to mention the price of a cure. Funny comment about why not go for hair transplants at 20 and keep a beautiful mane.  First transplants can not ever give back original density even for for somebody with limitless donor and I can promise you a balding 20 year old will never have limitless donor.  Be careful who you listen to.  Don't take my advice or especially the advice of anyone ever telling you to have a transplant.  Talk to multiple recommended HT surgeons and get the advice you deserve.  Make you decisions carefully and with time.  Even then there are no guarantees but at least your odds become much better.


 I also noticed Joe recommended to someone else that 3000 grafts for the front of the hairline is a reasonable number, despite making fun of me and criticising me for suggest EXACTLY THE SAME THING. You guys have your idiotic little in club and criticise anyone who doesn't just reaffirm what you say, it's laughable. And there are plenty of IAHRS doctors such as Koray Erdogan who have done FUEs on 20 year olds.

"Funny comment about why not go for hair transplants at 20 and keep a beautiful mane. First transplants can not ever give back original density"

You only say this because you're obsessed with useless American doctors who don't do particularly good jobs. You're also focusing on your own experience and Joe's who had transplants over a decade ago. This isn't the 1980s, HAVE A LOOK and you'll see that people are getting natural, and full density results at 3500 grafts with strong NW1.5 temples and still leaving half their donor area in tact.  Hair transplant surgeons particularly in the states are mostly idiots who charge 5 times the amount of typical transplant destinations at 2/3rds the density and graft survival rate, then go onto say "well at least you'll know you're safe with me!" 

If you're worried about your hair at 22, try out minoxidil, nizoral and fin or DHT blockers, and if you can stabilize comfortable then GET THE TRANSPLANT! Don't sit in silence suffering throughout your 20s, it will be the worst decision you ever make.

PLEASE don't listen to Hairbrain and Joe who got badly done transplants decades ago and wasted their donor area, and now want to stop anyone else from getting better results and living a happy youth. Save your life, get the transplant! In saying that, try to stabilise your losses and spend a year looking around globally for your best option for a great transplant, but then GET IT DONE! Don't waste your 20s being bald.

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## JeanlucBergman

I would also recommend to look solely at IAHRS surgeons.

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## JoeTillman

> In general, what is the ideal age for a hair transplant?
> 
> What is the age which ethical surgeons would unanimously agree it is "safe" to get a transplant assuming no donor thinning or any other abnormal occurences? I.e. a good transplant candidate.
> 
> Just looking for maybe an average age for strip as everyone is different. I am guessing it is around 35 as Spencer Kobren said he doesnt recommend any guy get FUT under 35 on the radio show before. Thoughts?
> 
> Obviously it is not 22. I am 33 and still concerned about the future loss.


 These are very tough questions to answer. In my experience, I think most doctors will at least say that 25 is a general threshold to consider but, as with anything, caveats exist. The idea is that FUE is "safer" so younger patients can be accepted but I've got mixed feelings about that. A bad result is still a bad result, regardless of the technique. One thing that I've learned is that the technique is irrelevant when you're talking to a patient that feels "butchered" and that includes FUE patients. The bad FUE results of today are no different, psychologically, than the bad plug patients of thirty years ago. I'm currently in regular contact with multiple patients that have had FUE and are in various states of depression due to unnatural results, over harvested donor zones, or a combination of effects. 

For strip, I think 30 is the threshold, especially now with the negative image it has in the market. Most patients considering strip now, in 2016/2017 are doing so only because they've really thought long and hard about what it involves and the side effects that are unique to strip alone.

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## JoeTillman

> Completely ridiculous comment. No one cares about being bald or having a grafts at the front along with a bald top and crown when they're 45 years old.


 Over 1/4 of all hair transplant surgeries performed are on men between the ages of 40 and 49. I've had patients in their 70's and even their 80's come in for surgery. One never stops caring about how they look and this really is a naive statement. 




> If you're a 20 year old balding guy, why not go for a transplant every few years and look like a guy with a beautiful mane?


 Because if he were to start off with your original suggestion of "4000 to 5000 grafts" to the front then he won't have enough hair to follow your plan. 




> You shouldn't be sitting there suffering in your 20s because of hairloss, DO something about it and who cares about the future, in a decade there will probably be a cure.


 This has been said every year for the past thirty years. Doing anything on this level based on the assumption that something specific will happen to warrant and justify a glutenous approach regarding such a limited resource is extremely irresponsible and short sighted.




> In the mean time, saying someone should live their 20s as a balding man is outright stupid. Shame on you, the amount of mens mental health issues that could be solved with decent transplants are huge.


 Another naive statement. Dealing with hair loss is nothing compared to dealing with a bad hair transplant. Until you've had one you had no idea what you're talking about.




> And I say Turkey is better than the US because their procedures, densities, aesthetics and graft survival rate is much higher. A quarter of the price of the US, and twice as good quality wise. Anyone who says the US is a good place for a transplant is conning people.


 This is your opinion, but you are insulting the hundreds of thousands of patients that have had and will have surgery in the United States by saying their happiness is the result of being conned. It doesn't really make any sense.

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## JoeTillman

> I also noticed Joe recommended to someone else that 3000 grafts for the front of the hairline is a reasonable number, despite making fun of me and criticising me for suggest EXACTLY THE SAME THING.


 For some people, 3000 makes sense, but you did not recommend the "exact same thing". You recommended for this 22 year old 4000 to 5000 grafts just for the hairline.




> PLEASE don't listen to Hairbrain and Joe who got badly done transplants decades ago and wasted their donor area, and now want to stop anyone else from getting better results and living a happy youth.


 My donor was hardly wasted. I've had 10,000 grafts successfully transplanted over the course of several procedures by Dr. Wong, the last of which was only six years ago, not over a decade ago. Regardless, I find it disturbing and ironic that I'm in the hair transplant industry with fifteen years of experience, having personally dealt with tens of thousands of people regarding this subject, and you are the one aggressively pushing this young man to have a hair transplant and to use 50% to 70% of his donor supply for his hairline. And I have no idea why you said I'm making fun of you. Please reference how I did.

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## JeanlucBergman

> For some people, 3000 makes sense, but you did not recommend the "exact same thing". You recommended for this 22 year old 4000 to 5000 grafts just for the hairline.
> 
> 
> 
> My donor was hardly wasted. I've had 10,000 grafts successfully transplanted over the course of several procedures by Dr. Wong, the last of which was only six years ago, not over a decade ago. Regardless, I find it disturbing and ironic that I'm in the hair transplant industry with fifteen years of experience, having personally dealt with tens of thousands of people regarding this subject, and you are the one aggressively pushing this young man to have a hair transplant and to use 50% to 70% of his donor supply for his hairline. And I have no idea why you said I'm making fun of you. Please reference how I did.


 Firstly while I think your end result is no doubt very acceptable and you have better coverage than most men your age, I think that transplants of 2016 standards at a Turkish IAHRS surgeon clinic like that of Civas or Erdogan would grant a better result and most would be happy with. If you go to an IAHRS surgeon, there is a very, very low chance of needing multiple repairs like you experienced or complications arising. I've seen beautiful full head transplants at just over 7000 grafts with a few 1000 left spare. 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's a serious medical procedure and one should consider their future when going into it, find a short and medium term solution to stabilising loss such as minoxidil and finasteride and look around for IAHRS surgeons, however beyond that, I think that if you're sitting there day in day out wishing you had more coverage, then you should make a move, whether you're 20 or 40. The satisfaction rates with IAHRS surgeons over the last few years is through the roof. I have a number of friends who have undergone FUE in Turkey and India and the results are beautiful and it has been life changing for them. These people are all in there mid 20s. 

Telling people to sit there and be miserable for a decade waiting till they have a shiny bald head, no confidence and years of stress over an issue that could be fixed in a day is downright irresponsible, and just as irresponsible as telling someone to have a back alley Indian transplant with 7000 grafts in the front of there head. If they have stabilized their losses effectively, why in the world would you wait for another ten years? If you want a transplant and you have exhausted other means of growth and maintenance, then chances are that desire isn't going to change, whether you wait 1, 5, 10 or 15 years.

In regards to the OP I strongly agree with you Joe that he shouldn't go through with it, however I think if he effectively plans for the future and is sensible with grafts he could use along with maintaining through fin and minox , then he should start planning ASAP.

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## JoeTillman

> If you go to an IAHRS surgeon, there is a very, very low chance of needing multiple repairs like you experienced or complications arising. I've seen beautiful full head transplants at just over 7000 grafts with a few 1000 left spare.


 And this is one of the problems with your position. You're speaking from a consumer point of view, meaning, you don't know the real story. All clinics have more problem results than you have heard about, read about or seen. The degree of each problem result varies from no growth and visible donor scarring to not enough density thereby requiring the (legendary in it's simplicity) "touchup" procedure. Yes, you detected some sarcasm :Smile:  Are the chances low that a result will wind up being a repair? Yes. As low as you indicated? Not even close and this is considering better clinics, not no name mills.




> Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's a serious medical procedure and one should consider their future when going into it, find a short and medium term solution to stabilising loss such as minoxidil and finasteride ...


 This is another problem with your position. Medical treatment should be considered a long term solution because if they are halted in the medium term then any gains or maintenance they have provided will be rendered moot. In my opinion, most surgical cases are doomed for the long term if medical treatment is disregarded. 




> Telling people to sit there and be miserable for a decade waiting till they have a shiny bald head, no confidence and years of stress over an issue that could be fixed in a day is downright irresponsible, and just as irresponsible as telling someone to have a back alley Indian transplant with 7000 grafts in the front of there head.


 Where did I say wait a decade or until the OP has a shiny bald head? How is recommending against surgery now compared to "just do it" and get "4000 to 5000" grafts into hairline considered to be irresponsible? I think you're confusing the issue. I told the OP that 4k to 5K in the front, as you suggested, was wrong and that he was too young. Nothing more. You're taking this into additional realms that I never addressed. 




> In regards to the OP I strongly agree with you Joe that he shouldn't go through with it, however I think if he effectively plans for the future and is sensible with grafts he could use along with maintaining through fin and minox , then he should start planning ASAP.


 There is nothing wrong with planning but a 22 year old has no idea how finasteride is going to maintain his hair for the long term. The benefit to this particular case is that he's been on the medication for a few years but the fact that he had to even consider going on finasteride while still a teenager (at 19 years) spells potential long term disaster with regards to potential future loss and long term donor management.

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## tedwuji

> I have personally met Joe and have spent time with him.  There is specific reason he had 9 transplants aside from the first two. Some were for repairing bad work from a different era and others for research and experimentation of various methods . He has helped move this field forward in multitudinous ways in which I have no time to even begin to list.   I can tell you I probably have more experience picking out and critiquing transplants than just about anyone, and to have met Joe I would have never guessed that he ever had any work done.  As far as I know Joe never brags about anything (well aside from maybe how hot is wife is  )  To advise a 22 year old who is experiencing aggresive MPB to run to Turkey, or anywhere for that matter, to get his entire head coverd with 4000 grafts in what could very easily be a NW6 + case is just pure ignorance.  I will not go through the whole litney why that is a bad idea, but let me just propose at least one.  In reality 4000 grafts into a NW6 is no where near enough grafts to even give an illusion of a decent head of hair without at a minimum say leaving the crown.  So what happens after possibly getting into his 40s and becoming a NW6 if not before and you have 4000 sporadically placed grats based on a prior pattern or an assumed future pattern? Chances are great you will have an unatural appearance or one seriously diffused head of hair.  So many NW6 cases are fortunate to get 6000 grafts. Even if he's lucky theres a good chance an additonal  2000 grafts would not fix this type of poorly planned consequence. God forbid a retro thinning of the donor that was used for the first 4000, then it is certainly game over.  Then what?  This is only one of many things that could go wrong.  Aside from a couple of known Turkish IAHRS recommened surgeons why do you say Turkey is a better place than the US?  Price? Price may be a factor however there are so many other factors that go into getting a hair transplant that involves serious considerations and its highly advisable to talk to more than just a single doctor or advocate for that matter.  Saving a potential few grand doesn't mean shit to someone who ends up f'n up his life.  
> With all due respect and I mean this sincerely please,  do yourself and everyone on this site a favor and dont just claim someone is an encyclopedia of bad decisions when that individual has given back to this community in ways you can not begin to account for.  You posted in an unrelated thread and advised another individual in order to slow down or stop his hair loss he should try pumpkin seed oil and limiting his masturbation.   If you believe that works for you then that's fine but try to understand  individuals come to this site primarily for proven methods, help and advice that works. That usually means searching out EMPERICAL data and getting advice from qualified doctors or from those who have been there done that. I hope in the future  you will expand your knowledge by doing more reading here than advising.


 Joe, What is the best way to predict your "future pattern" ?  I think this is really important to know when coming up with what Dr. Rassman called a "Master Plan" in his office when i saw him (future plan to account for final pattern and graft distribution).

Do you support the idea of using minaturization mapping and the HairCheck tool aka bulk analysis (something that compares density of permanent zone to top of scalp?)

Are there other ways to predict your final pattern besides these and of course family history?>
Anytihng I am leaving out?

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## JeanlucBergman

> And this is one of the problems with your position. You're speaking from a consumer point of view, meaning, you don't know the real story. All clinics have more problem results than you have heard about, read about or seen. The degree of each problem result varies from no growth and visible donor scarring to not enough density thereby requiring the (legendary in it's simplicity) "touchup" procedure. Yes, you detected some sarcasm Are the chances low that a result will wind up being a repair? Yes. As low as you indicated? Not even close and this is considering better clinics, not no name mills.
> 
> 
> 
> This is another problem with your position. Medical treatment should be considered a long term solution because if they are halted in the medium term then any gains or maintenance they have provided will be rendered moot. In my opinion, most surgical cases are doomed for the long term if medical treatment is disregarded. 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I say wait a decade or until the OP has a shiny bald head? How is recommending against surgery now compared to "just do it" and get "4000 to 5000" grafts into hairline considered to be irresponsible? I think you're confusing the issue. I told the OP that 4k to 5K in the front, as you suggested, was wrong and that he was too young. Nothing more. You're taking this into additional realms that I never addressed. 
> ...


 Among IAHRS surgeons, what would you consider to be the satisfaction rate with procedures? What % of procedures among these surgeons are botched or have a substantially lower than expected graft survival rate? I would expect these numbers to be substantially lower than those with fin sides, particularly in 2016.

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## Hairbrain

> I would also recommend to look solely at IAHRS surgeons.


 Most all IAHRS are American doctors. Per your above posts there are many young hairtransplant victims who regularly call in to TheBaldTruth weekly program who have had horrible FUE experiences within the last few years. Some badly planned who started agreesivley loosing more hair. If you knew enough about transplants you would also know that no matter how much donor you have it is impossible to aquire original density. Its the physics of making the recipient sites. Hairtransplants offer many a good illusion of having full denisty but it is an illusion. Funny you state to only consider IAHRS surgeons but the fact is collectivley they would disagree with practically every post you've made here and on this forum. I have personally spoken and met numerours IAHRS surgeons and for the most part know that they concur on most matters in regarding who and when individuals should or should not get transplants and how conservative one must be when starting down that road. FUT or FUE.  There are no perfect or scarless surgeries. All doctors including IAHRS doctors have patients that are not satisfied. Its just the facts. If your going to try and give advice on the forums you need to educate yourself a little better about hair transplantation. I would suggest listening to the weekly BaldTruth podcast in which some IAHRS doctors will chime in from time to time.  Feel free to be critical of me anytime. I always tell people to always get multiple opinions from qualified doctors before ever making any desicion regarding hair transplants. I guarantee you by criticizing Joe Tillman, who is constantly inside the clinics and knows the ins and outs of every technique, and by advising others on this site to slow down or stop their hair loss to stop masturbating and take pumpkin seed oil no one here is ever going to take you seriously.  Anyone who needs proof of that can just search your previous posts.

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## JeanlucBergman

> Most all IAHRS are American doctors. Per your above posts there are many young hairtransplant victims who regularly call in to TheBaldTruth weekly program who have had horrible FUE experiences within the last few years. Some badly planned who started agreesivley loosing more hair. If you knew enough about transplants you would also know that no matter how much donor you have it is impossible to aquire original density. Its the physics of making the recipient sites. Hairtransplants offer many a good illusion of having full denisty but it is an illusion. Funny you state to only consider IAHRS surgeons but the fact is collectivley they would disagree with practically every post you've made here and on this forum. I have personally spoken and met numerours IAHRS surgeons and for the most part know that they concur on most matters in regarding who and when individuals should or should not get transplants and how conservative one must be when starting down that road. FUT or FUE.  There are no perfect or scarless surgeries. All doctors including IAHRS doctors have patients that are not satisfied. Its just the facts. If your going to try and give advice on the forums you need to educate yourself a little better about hair transplantation. I would suggest listening to the weekly BaldTruth podcast in which some IAHRS doctors will chime in from time to time.  Feel free to be critical of me anytime. I always tell people to always get multiple opinions from qualified doctors before ever making any desicion regarding hair transplants. I guarantee you by criticizing Joe Tillman, who is constantly inside the clinics and knows the ins and outs of every technique, and by advising others on this site to slow down or stop their hair loss to stop masturbating and take pumpkin seed oil no one here is ever going to take you seriously.  Anyone who needs proof of that can just search your previous posts.


 There are plenty of studies that show ejaculation causes testosterone conversion to DHT. I never said this would save hairloss, I simply presented a fact. Either you accept the studies, or you don't. 

How many people who have had SUCCESS vs those who haven't call into the podcast? Most people with success are out living their lives. The % with results they are unhappy with would be less than those who get fin sides.

I've seen HUNDREDS of examples of norwood 2s getting 2000-3000 grafts for their temples and aren't even on fin. You can find this with plenty of IAHRS doctors too. 95% of doctors do what the patient asks if they have the money. Get real.

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## Hairbrain

> Orignially Posted by JeanlucBergman 
> There are plenty of studies that show ejaculation causes testosterone conversion to DHT. I never said this would save hairloss, I simply presented a fact. Either you accept the studies, or you don't.


 You presented a fact based on what?  Of course I don't accept it. You did advise on a previous post that masturbation could help slow down or stop hair loss. And then posted a link to some unscrupulous study from 1976?  Really?  I am assuming that study is much older than you.  




> How many people who have had SUCCESS vs those who haven't call into the podcast? Most people with success are out living their lives. The % with results they are unhappy with would be less than those who get fin sides.


 I will let Joe chime in on this one.  But from my years of listening to the show I would say 50/50.  There are individuals who call in constantly confirming how hair transplantation changed their life.  Some who just say they are "satisfied".  And others who have been devastated. This is true of results past, present, FUT or FUE. 
Not to say it doesn't happen, but as we've discussed before the number of people who experience actual sides with fin are very low. 




> I've seen HUNDREDS of examples of norwood 2s getting 2000-3000 grafts for their temples and aren't even on fin. You can find this with plenty of IAHRS doctors too. 95% of doctors do what the patient asks if they have the money. Get real.


 So I will take issue with IAHRS doctors taking the money and just doing what ever the patient asks.  Absolutely disagree with this.  Many if not most IAHRS doctors are booked even up to 12 months in advance.  Do you really think they need the business or would risk their reputation here, elsewhere, or their IAHRS recommendation on making poor decisions that will cost them MUCH MUCH more in the long run?....Simply not true.  These doctors know and deal with the prospect of being called out for practically every head they touch. Probably one of the last persons any doctor would want to be called out by is Joe.  And I've seen and heard him do it.  Why?  Because at the end of the day his real interest is in the patient. 
At the same time we all know there certainly are thousands of other doctors and so called clinics out there that do and will take every dime you have and run. That's why these forums and patient advocates exist.

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## Rizaan

> Firstly while I think your end result is no doubt very acceptable and you have better coverage than most men your age, I think that transplants of 2016 standards at a Turkish IAHRS surgeon clinic like that of Civas or Erdogan would grant a better result and most would be happy with. If you go to an IAHRS surgeon, there is a very, very low chance of needing multiple repairs like you experienced or complications arising. I've seen beautiful full head transplants at just over 7000 grafts with a few 1000 left spare. 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's a serious medical procedure and one should consider their future when going into it, find a short and medium term solution to stabilising loss such as minoxidil and finasteride and look around for IAHRS surgeons, however beyond that, I think that if you're sitting there day in day out wishing you had more coverage, then you should make a move, whether you're 20 or 40. The satisfaction rates with IAHRS surgeons over the last few years is through the roof. I have a number of friends who have undergone FUE in Turkey and India and the results are beautiful and it has been life changing for them. These people are all in there mid 20s. 
> 
> Telling people to sit there and be miserable for a decade waiting till they have a shiny bald head, no confidence and years of stress over an issue that could be fixed in a day is downright irresponsible, and just as irresponsible as telling someone to have a back alley Indian transplant with 7000 grafts in the front of there head. If they have stabilized their losses effectively, why in the world would you wait for another ten years? If you want a transplant and you have exhausted other means of growth and maintenance, then chances are that desire isn't going to change, whether you wait 1, 5, 10 or 15 years.
> 
> In regards to the OP I strongly agree with you Joe that he shouldn't go through with it, however I think if he effectively plans for the future and is sensible with grafts he could use along with maintaining through fin and minox , then he should start planning ASAP.


 I agree with your statements about not spending your youth as a balding, depressed man and to get a HT done. It's obvious that you could get bad results (which is why you have to look for a great surgeon to minimize the chances), and donor supply is limited which is why the first surgery could be done while taking future HL into consideration. It's called Male PATTERN Baldness for a reason: because it follows a pattern, and a lot of times a surgeon CAN tell what your hair condition could be in a afew years time using some equipment.

btw, have you stabilised your own HL for the HT you'll get done in a few months time?

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## JeanlucBergman

The very front of my hairline is getting worse (at a slowed rate) but the area behind it is thickening. Likely because I'm only using minox on my crown and mid section and not the hairline.

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## Mountinvan

I am puzzled by this very generalized statement that Turkey is much more advanced than the US in terms of HT. Turkey seems to be enticing because of lower costs and mega FUE sessions by teams that are mainly techs. I am sure we could debate this ad infinitum, but at the end of the day North America boasts some of the world's best highly skilled and trained clinics. I would put a Konior, Shapiro, Rahal, H&W, etc. up against any of the Turks any day of the week. Turkey makes great rugs. Let's keep them on the floor and not on the head.

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## DAVE52

> I am puzzled by this very generalized statement that Turkey is much more advanced than the US in terms of HT.


 JLB is the one making that generalized statement . Do people really want to fly to Turkey for a HT because it's cheaper

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## JeanlucBergman

> JLB is the one making that generalized statement . Do people really want to fly to Turkey for a HT because it's cheaper


 It's also better in many cases. No surgeon is getting better or more consistent results than Erdogan in FUE, who is only 2.5 Euro as well. For FUT Rahal and Hasson + Wong are incredible, but in FUE there are a few such as Lupanzula putting out fantastic results, but none outright better than Erdogan who his half the price. His techs do most of the extractions and implantations, but at the end of the day that is a more efficient means of doing the surgery as long as the techs are of a high standard.

Lower end clinics in both the US and Turkey with unknown doctors and work mostly done by techs should be avoided always.  The point is that on the basis of a low minimum wage, lower regulation and cost of tools and building a clinic, Turkey can do it just as effectively for a lower cost. If you can get a surgery with a fantastic IAHRS surgeon with consistently good results that you like, why would you go elsewhere for twice the price when results aren't any better aesthetically, customer reviews are no better and there is no info that either have anything but a fantastic track record and high quality service?

Surgeons in the US think they can get away with charging five times of Turkish chop shops and doing results no better because people like you bring up the "Turkey is worse because it's cheaper" argument which is nonsense.

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## JeanlucBergman

> I am puzzled by this very generalized statement that Turkey is much more advanced than the US in terms of HT. Turkey seems to be enticing because of lower costs and mega FUE sessions by teams that are mainly techs. I am sure we could debate this ad infinitum, but at the end of the day North America boasts some of the world's best highly skilled and trained clinics. I would put a Konior, Shapiro, Rahal, H&W, etc. up against any of the Turks any day of the week. Turkey makes great rugs. Let's keep them on the floor and not on the head.


 Would you not put Erdogan at the level of any of those surgeons? All of those are fantastic surgeons, but for FUE do you honestly think any of those are doing a better job than Erdogan? Obviously they are twice his price too. My point is that if you can get high quality results at a low risk; you don't NEED to pay twice the money for the same quality of result.

Also, most people can't afford, Rahal, Shapiro or H+W. Most people going to Turkey are aware of the risks and that their results will be of a lower quality, but not everyone who needs a transplant can go to Rahal, but its an important enough issue that they have to get it done regardless.

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## Joaoorlando09

I am from Brazil and I had a hair transplant surgery when I was 27 years old. It was the best thing I could do for myself.

-------------------------------------------


www.welbox.com.br





> Hello,
> 
> I am 22 and have been losing my hair (hairline and crown) since I was about 16 or 17. Once it became an obvious problem at 19 (around Norwood III) I decided to start Finasteride. This stabilized my loss and even gave me some density on the top and crown back. The crown area is still a bit thin but in general I'm happy with the density I got back. The biggest issue is my hairline. I prefer to style my hair up every morning in order to maximize the appearance of density up top, but the hairline is still so receded that I can never get the look I am after. I feel like my friends, and acquaintances see me as a person who is on his way towards being bald. 
> 
> I have met with Dr. Robert Haber and felt very comfortable that he is a skilled and reputable surgeon, and he recommended 1200 grafts via FUT into my hairline to bring the temples down to meet my widows peak. This would result in a straight hairline about 7 millimeters up on my forehead, which from what I understand is on the higher side but still natural in appearance. The following week, I scheduled my procedure and put down my deposit, but now I am getting major cold feet. 
> 
> Since the day I realized the finasteride was not going to bring my hairline back, I have been saving for this procedure (about 3 years).  But now that the possibility of this procedure is real I am worried that I might be committing myself to a life of endless procedures, research, and paranoia that people will notice the transplant, or the scar. And I worry that if the Finasteride stops working for me and I am forced to shave my head, I will have scaring in both the donor site and the recipient sites. Dr. Habers told me that if I end up unsatisfied with my scaring I can always opt for an SMP procedure to camouflage the donor areas, and give the appearance of more density in my crown. Does anyone have experience with SMP camouflage? And if so were you satisfied with the result? Also, would it look strange if I filled in my FUT scar with SMP and then for whatever reason needed to shave my head bic razor bald? I feel like Id probably have to keep a certain amount of stubble on my head for the SMP to look natural unless I had the procedure done on my whole scalp.   
> 
> Success for me would be that the Finasteride continues to maintain my current hair, my FUT scar is concealed under hair cut to a #3 or #4 guard, and that Dr. Haber is able to create a non-receded hairline with natural density. I will continue to use Finasteride and minoxidil indefinitely but besides that Id like to never worry about my hair again. Is this goal realistic? Or do I need to change my expectations before moving forward? 
> ...

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