# Men's Hair Loss > Introduce Yourself & Share Your Story >  Should I use propecia?

## StillHere

Hi

I'm 18 and from the UK and found out about 6/7 months ago that I have fallen victim to the genetic mutation that bonds us all on this forum - I was going bald at 17!
I first tried to deny it as we all did - that didn't go well. Then I tried using alpecin a caffeine shampoo hoping to solve the problem cheaply - it was snake oil. I did some internet surfing and found this site and you all seem like a group of very supportive and benevolent people who can help me. 
I then started 5% minox 2x a day and I had the dread shed that thinned out my hair considerably in 3 weeks (I'm a diffuse thinner by the way) but then it subsided and I began to experience regrowth over the next 4 months or so with my hair now approaching its pre-balding thickness.
About 4 weeks ago I started on azelaic acid once a day as well as minox 2x a day so I don't know if its working or not yet - i'll give it a few months before I make a judgement.
But now I'm wondering whether or not to use propecia to really get some results and hopefully halt the loss (I already use nizoral as well). But seeing as I'm only 18 I'm wondering whether it is potentially more risky than normal as my secondary sexual characteristics (influenced by DHT) have not fully developed. Would it be better to wait a couple of years or should I just go for it?

Any replies would be welcome. Good luck to everyone and thanks in advance!

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## chrisis

I had bad side effects after taking it for 2 months. Stopped in April and still not back to normal. Will I ever be? I'd advise caution to anyone now. You'll get many men telling you it's fine, but my story is proof that the risks are real and you're playing a game of chance with your sexual health. Is it worth it? That's something only you can decide.

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## stratofortress

The problem is with minox is while it can stimulate growth and in some cases temporarily reverse the loss and thicken hair, in the long term without a DHT blocker it's like throwing buckets of water out of a sinking boat-you need some form of DHT blocker to take control of the loss, especially since you're so young.

It's said that Propecia is safe for men over 18, but it's still not a decision you should take lightly as you'll be on it in the long term.

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## WashedOut

It's really up to you. The risks are pretty clear and there's really no way to know if you will be one of the unlucky ones. From the two doctors I've spoken to they seem to have seen few people with side effects but it does happen as you see from some of the users on the forum.

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## rdawg

It's a slight risk but the pros outweigh the cons IMO. I'm on it and experience no side effects so far. MANY don't experience side effects(my guess is the major side effects affect around 5-10&#37; of the people that take the drug). Side effects do occur and some on here have them but millions take this pill and don't experience it. Take it and if you experience side effects just get off of it! it could save the hair you have.

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## chrisis

rdawg, I had the same thought, re: getting off the drug if I had side effects. They don't necessarily go away that easily. You need to bear that in mind before consuming this drug.

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## StillHere

Thanks guys for the replies

I've heard that a lot of people start using propecia by starting with 0.1 mg a day  and then gradually up the dose to 1 mg a day. Would this prevent sides or just tell me how much propecia I need/can handle? 


Also what does everyone think of azelaic acid as a DHT blocker?

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## clandestine

> Also what does everyone think of azelaic acid as a DHT blocker?


 Probably useless.

Try perhaps a sitosterol based topical or maybe RU if you're not feeling fin.

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## DAVE52

> ... azelaic acid as a DHT blocker?


 
As mentioned probably useless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azelaic_acid

Azelaic acid is used to treat mild to moderate acne,

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## beatinghairloss

Should you use Propecia....

I say. No.


I am not a doctor.

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## rdawg

> rdawg, I had the same thought, re: getting off the drug if I had side effects. They don't necessarily go away that easily. You need to bear that in mind before consuming this drug.


 I think you're one of the unlucky few that still have some side effects afterward. The chances of that are quite low(around 1%? from what i've read) which is far too low to not at least try the drug. It's a risk but probably not much more of a risk than any other medication would have.

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## beatinghairloss

> I think you're one of the unlucky few that still have some side effects afterward. The chances of that are quite low(around 1%? from what i've read) which is far too low to not at least try the drug. It's a risk but probably not much more of a risk than any other medication would have.


 http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/247858.php

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## rdawg

> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/247858.php


 Fair enough but that doesn't tell me it's more than 1%. How many millions of men are on this pill? 1% would mean around 1000-2000 men have more permanent dysfunction, which is more than enough to have a vocal minority.

Numerous people have had side effects and then they go away after a few weeks on the pill or after they stop taking it.

Not saying it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does. I just feel like people overblow the number when millions have zero or very minor issues when taking the drug.

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## 25 going on 65

That article is old news. It's just on a few dozen case studies on men who claimed to have persistent side effects before they were ever chosen to participate.

As for whether someone should take finasteride, every guy has to decide that for himself. There's a small chance of developing noticeable sides (studies say 5% or less, though I think it could be higher), and a very small chance that some of them will persist months or years after quitting. However we don't know what % of those with persistent sides seek medical treatment, and what % of those fully disclose to their doctors. Some have successfully recovered from persistent sides with something as simple as supplementation of testosterone. (That's doesn't mean everyone will have that ability.)
I generally take a positive view of fin on this forum because almost anyone posting here is abnormally bothered by their hair loss, and this drug will maintain or regrow hair for a minimum of 8/10 users for at least a few years (on average you can stay above baseline for more than 5), and it will slow hair loss after that for an unknown length of time (at least 17 years, as we know from Spencer). So in my personal situation, the 5-10% chance of sides and the 1% (or less?) chance of persistent sides was not worth tossing the 80+% chance of stopping my hair loss. And I also knew of the 100% chance of continued hair loss without DHT therapy.

However the risk isn't going to be worth it for everyone. Besides side effect risks, a minority of users do not appreciably respond to finasteride. You have to figure out what amount of risk you're willing to take to keep your hair. For me it was an obvious choice, but I was affected terribly by starting to lose my hair.

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## beatinghairloss

I agree it’s a decision that only the person contemplating it can surely make. I do mean to discourage people from taking a pill that may cause long lasting unwanted sexual side effects but for good reason. Maybe I am wrong but would you say that the following deserves more thought?

The stickiness of your ejaculate is made of the seaman produced in the prostate. This fluid keeps the sperm produced in your testicles alive in the highly acidic vagina. Sperm combines with seaman as it passes through the prostate to make up the total ejaculate. Is it not strange that most taking Propecia experience the least bothersome side effect a watery ejaculate? It’s pretty clear that Propecia is causing the prostate to stop functioning whether it’s by shrinking it or by rendering it partly inactive. Well my simple point is that if you stop ejaculating then you would accomplish a smaller less active prostate the major site in your body of T to DHT conversion. So while I think any person should be able to, with proper education of the risks, make the decision of whether or not to take Propecia I also believe they  should be well aware that periodic abstinence may have the same and possibly minor positive effect of Propecia.

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## 25 going on 65

The effectiveness of fin and dut isn't due to prostate shrinking (which may be a result of the drugs' mechanism but not the cause of stopping MPB) or deactivation (the same amount of 5-ar and T are still produced by the body) but because they bind to the 5-ar type II enzyme, rendering it unable to bond with testosterone. The idea of not ejaculating to stop MPB has floated around/been experimented with for decades but unfortunately doesn't work, at least not in a way that comes anywhere near halting hair loss. (But then if it did, it would still make having hair pretty pointless anyway, if you know what I mean  :Wink:  )
Right now these 2 drugs are the only available MPB treatments that safely work for most men, but there are 2 adjunct treatments that might buy a little time on their own: minox and keto.

Edit: I suppose the bottom line is that no one needs to take fin/dut for MPB in the literal sense, but for those of us who want to keep our hair, they're what we are stuck with for now

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## beatinghairloss

> The effectiveness of fin and dut isn't due to prostate shrinking (which may be a result of the drugs' mechanism but not the cause of stopping MPB) or deactivation (the same amount of 5-ar and T are still produced by the body) but because they bind to the 5-ar type II enzyme, rendering it unable to bond with testosterone. The idea of not ejaculating to stop MPB has floated around/been experimented with for decades but unfortunately doesn't work, at least not in a way that comes anywhere near halting hair loss. (But then if it did, it would still make having hair pretty pointless anyway, if you know what I mean  )
> Right now these 2 drugs are the only available MPB treatments that safely work for most men, but there are 2 adjunct treatments that might buy a little time on their own: minox and keto.
> 
> Edit: I suppose the bottom line is that no one needs to take fin/dut for MPB in the literal sense, but for those of us who want to keep our hair, they're what we are stuck with for now


 
First of all the Idea of not ejaculating to stop hair loss has not been tested the way you make it sound because people with hair loss dont feel justified with keeping what they have and anybody who has tried it will tell you they didn't lose a spec of hair while abstinent(castrated men don't lose hair so I have heard). Their scalps became healthier and no more DHT oils being expelled. Aside from that most of what you say is true with some elusive misunderstandings. The belief that 5-AR stops the binding is a double edge sward because although this may slightly work in this manner there is still an abundance of DHT otherwise people taking the meds would never lose hair. The real mechanism or the other edge of the sword is that this reducing in DHT is happening due to the chemicals effect on the reducing of the active site of T conversion to DHT which is the prostate. You are aware that the prostate produces more DHT then anywhere in your body? This mild binding effect if it exists at all is peer speculation and we have no SCIENTIFIC evidence to prove that. We havent observed it, there are other explanations on what its doing and yet we really dont know how it works. What we do know is the prostate is regulated by the amount of sperm each and every time you ejaculate it passes through there to pick up the prostate fluid and anybody who denies that needs to freshen up on some introductory Anatomy and Physiology. With that said the assumption that the most active T-DHT conversion site being the prostate anybody who thinks not using it would not deregulate it needs to read up on some intro chemistry. I would love to teach you about surface area and conservation of mass but I don't enjoy typing that much. The gist is your prostate will always produce DHT and like anything the larger it gets the more it produces. The rapid growth at age 12 that slows down by 20 is no coincidence to be the time when facial hair and earlier balding begins. DHT is the culprit and in areas of Japan and India where teen masturbation is frowned upon for this very reason of over producing this Hormone they are laughing at us bald white folks.

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## 25 going on 65

> First of all the Idea of not ejaculating to stop hair loss has not been tested the way you make it sound because people with hair loss dont feel justified with keeping what they have and *anybody who has tried it will tell you they didn't lose a spec of hair while abstinent* _[not correct, check 15 years of hair loss forums]_ (castrated men don't lose hair so I have heard). Their scalps became healthier and no more DHT oils being expelled. Aside from that most of what you say is true with some elusive misunderstandings. *The belief that 5-AR stops the binding is a double edge sward because although this may slightly work in this manner there is still an abundance of DHT otherwise people taking the meds would never lose hair.* _[5-ar doesn't stop the binding, fin/dut binds to 5-ar which stops it from binding to T]_ The real mechanism or the other edge of the sword is that this reducing in DHT is happening due to the chemicals effect on the reducing of the active site of T conversion to DHT which is the prostate. You are aware that the prostate produces more DHT then anywhere in your body? *This mild binding effect if it exists at all is peer speculation and we have no SCIENTIFIC evidence to prove that.* _[It's basic knowledge, hence why fin/dut work.]_ We havent observed it, there are other explanations on what its doing and yet we really dont know how it works. What we do know is the prostate is regulated by the amount of sperm each and every time you ejaculate it passes through there to pick up the prostate fluid and anybody who denies that needs to freshen up on some introductory Anatomy and Physiology. With that said the assumption that the most active T-DHT conversion site being the prostate anybody who thinks not using it would not deregulate it needs to read up on some intro chemistry. I would love to teach you about surface area and conservation of mass but I don't enjoy typing that much. The gist is your prostate will always produce DHT and like anything the larger it gets the more it produces. The rapid growth at age 12 that slows down by 20 is no coincidence to be the time when facial hair and earlier balding begins. DHT is the culprit and in areas of *Japan and India where teen masturbation is frowned upon for this very reason of over producing this Hormone they are laughing at us bald white folks.*


 Lots of balding/bald men in India and Japan. And teenagers/young men in any country sneak in their stroking no matter how frowned upon it is.  :Wink:

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## WashedOut

> I agree its a decision that only the person contemplating it can surely make. I do mean to discourage people from taking a pill that may cause long lasting unwanted sexual side effects but for good reason. Maybe I am wrong but would you say that the following deserves more thought?
> 
> The stickiness of your ejaculate is made of the seaman produced in the prostate. This fluid keeps the sperm produced in your testicles alive in the highly acidic vagina. Sperm combines with seaman as it passes through the prostate to make up the total ejaculate. Is it not strange that most taking Propecia experience the least bothersome side effect a watery ejaculate? Its pretty clear that Propecia is causing the prostate to stop functioning whether its by shrinking it or by rendering it partly inactive. Well my simple point is that if you stop ejaculating then you would accomplish a smaller less active prostate the major site in your body of T to DHT conversion. So while I think any person should be able to, with proper education of the risks, make the decision of whether or not to take Propecia I also believe they  should be well aware that periodic abstinence may have the same and possibly minor positive effect of Propecia.


 Why would anyone listen to a guy who doesn't even know how to spell semen? I know you're not gonna listen to this but you really gotta stop making up your own theories.

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## Maradona

> Should you use Propecia....
> 
> I say. No.
> 
> 
> I am not a doctor.


 I would avoid propecia at all costs, I would rather go bald. 
You are 18 and you can **** up your body entirely, not only your dick.

Wait till +21 to shoot yourself in the mouth. Even if you have no side effects at the beggining, you have to live with the fear of having that drug within your system and that in my opinion is worse than going bald.

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## beatinghairloss

> Why would anyone listen to a guy who doesn't even know how to spell semen? I know you're not gonna listen to this but you really gotta stop making up your own theories.


 
wat R u mi 6th grade Inglesh Teecher. Way to go you found a spelling error just to spite you I will conclude this message with a very long run on sentence that will hopefully further anoy you the suggestion you made for me to not formulate theories is bogus how can you expect to ever further the knowledge or body of evidence building science up if you don't formulate theories and test them

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## beatinghairloss

> I would avoid propecia at all costs, I would rather go bald. 
> You are 18 and you can **** up your body entirely, not only your dick.
> 
> Wait till +21 to shoot yourself in the mouth. Even if you have no side effects at the beggining, you have to live with the fear of having that drug within your system and that in my opinion is worse than going bald.


 
I could not agree more.

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## beatinghairloss

> Why would anyone listen to a guy who doesn't even know how to spell semen? I know you're not gonna listen to this but you really gotta stop making up your own theories.


 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2055645

This is not my theories. Its fact. Period. 

Some of you chose not to read this fact!. So here is a very short intro lesson on the function of the prostate its one f***ing paragraph I wont spoon feed you any more read it.

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## beatinghairloss

Testosterone is made in the testicles where it travels to the prostate and is secreted through epithelial cells (for those of you who dont know those are surface cells of organs primarily responsible for secretion and absorption) and at the same time is converting 95% of T to DHT. This is a required process for ejaculation or in other words to fill up the prostate before each time you use it because your body does just that to keep you ready at all times in fact its able to do this very quickly within a few minutes. That would mean, simply put, each ejaculation not only takes away Testosterone but increased DHT and that is fact numb skulls. Whats worse as you get older your prostate get so big it reduces urine flow and this over sized prostate converts more DHT then ever. Then you hit a certain age (around 50) and Testosterone begins to plummet leaving much less free T to convert to DHT which in turn lowers DHT as well all though whatever young new process keeping  your hair healthy and working are long passed and DHT by this time will have done its dirty work.

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## 25 going on 65

I know you're trying to help but the abstinence "treatment" is a dead end, always has been. Like scalp tightness, blood flow, bad air, etc. it is an old wives tale that started before any of us were born. Every few years another round of people new to hair loss try to resurrect these ideas on balding forums and force puzzle pieces together that don't fit. We already know why dut/fin work.
There's no need to imagine mysteries where we already have answers, no need to reinvent the wheel. Occam's Razor does away with these wives tales very cleanly.

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## beatinghairloss

> I know you're trying to help but the abstinence "treatment" is a dead end, always has been. Like scalp tightness, blood flow, bad air, etc. it is an old wives tale that started before any of us were born. Every few years another round of people new to hair loss try to resurrect these ideas on balding forums and force puzzle pieces together that don't fit. We already know why dut/fin work.
> There's no need to imagine mysteries where we already have answers, no need to reinvent the wheel. Occam's Razor does away with these wives tales very cleanly.


 Your dead wrong. The guys who actually give this a shot leave these forums because they have no use for them anymore. You have it backwards your the ones wrong and thats why your still here.

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## WashedOut

> Your dead wrong. The guys who actually give this a shot leave these forums because they have no use for them anymore. You have it backwards your the ones wrong and thats why your still here.


 hahah yeah that must be it man. They're keeping all the secrets to themselves. You are hilariously out of touch with reality. 

I'm gonna make a new theory that chewing gum every day will prevent cancer. Prove me wrong world.

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## 25 going on 65

You can see for yourself (even on this forum) the guys who tried this and failed. 
On the other hand we have no evidence anywhere of guys regrowing hair by not shagging or wanking--while most of us on proven treatments have already maintained and regrown. I have the MPB gene yet my hair has been getting better and better for 2 years....guys who are really hurt by hair loss can be like me, or they can be like the guys who walk around gritting teeth desperate for release, yet still falling down the NW scale. (One of the few things worse than balding is balding and not even having sex, by choice!)
I'll be here until medical science regrows 100&#37; of the hair I want, because I'm vain. Even after that I may keep coming back to call out snake oil, because even when we have a compete solution, there will be guys trying to avoid them with abstinence and scalp massages. (And saw palmetto, oxygen treatments, standing on their heads, shellfish oil, and scalp rollers, and on and on....) Kind of like how there are cancer victims who have a 90% chance to get well with known methods but instead go to homeopaths and die.

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## 25 going on 65

> I'm gonna make a new theory that chewing gum every day will prevent cancer. Prove me wrong world.


 Well I chew gum at least once a week and I'm over 2 and a half decades cancer free. In fact I don't have a single post on cancer forums!

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## beatinghairloss

> You can see for yourself (even on this forum) the guys who tried this and failed. 
> On the other hand we have no evidence anywhere of guys regrowing hair by not shagging or wanking--while most of us on proven treatments have already maintained and regrown. I have the MPB gene yet my hair has been getting better and better for 2 years....guys who are really hurt by hair loss can be like me, or they can be like the guys who walk around gritting teeth desperate for release, yet still falling down the NW scale. (One of the few things worse than balding is balding and not even having sex, by choice!)
> I'll be here until medical science regrows 100&#37; of the hair I want, because I'm vain. Even after that I may keep coming back to call out snake oil, because even when we have a compete solution, there will be guys trying to avoid them with abstinence and scalp massages. (And saw palmetto, oxygen treatments, standing on their heads, shellfish oil, and scalp rollers, and on and on....) Kind of like how there are cancer victims who have a 90% chance to get well with known methods but instead go to homeopaths and die.


 
I know one thing for sure your a smart person. I have no doubt that you have come to your conclusions with honest reading and consideration. I also know that from your words you believe passionately there is no correlation in fact we can call it the common belief even amongst doctors today. What you don't know is there has not been a person report a year of abstinence on any forum not one. If propecia takes a year then Why not abstinence. Second, I have had personal experiences and conversations with many people who have cured hair loss with full abstinence. I my self have not been able to go longer then 3 weeks because I don't care enough about going bald to give that up. However I do know it's my choice and people who have never used forums have not had the bad stigma that comes on forums. These people cured their hair loss and never knew there was a forum for hair loss. So be like me say fu*k it but don't deny that you can stop it with abstinence. Dht will stop If you don't use your prostate and none of you can say different because you haven't tested it so u don't know. Science has had numerous explanations that contradict previous "facts" every day for as long as mankind has been here. The world was not flat. So then the only thing you can rely on is self testing.

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## mpb47

> I know one thing for sure your a smart person. I have no doubt that you have come to your conclusions with honest reading and consideration. I also know that from your words you believe passionately there is no correlation in fact we can call it the common belief even amongst doctors today. What you don't know is there has not been a person report a year of abstinence on any forum not one. If propecia takes a year then Why not abstinence. Second, I have had personal experiences and conversations with many people who have cured hair loss with full abstinence. I my self have not been able to go longer then 3 weeks because I don't care enough about going bald to give that up. However I do know it's my choice and people who have never used forums have not had the bad stigma that comes on forums. These people cured their hair loss and never knew there was a forum for hair loss. So be like me say fu*k it but don't deny that you can stop it with abstinence. Dht will stop If you don't use your prostate and none of you can say different because you haven't tested it so u don't know. Science has had numerous explanations that contradict previous "facts" every day for as long as mankind has been here. The world was not flat. So then the only thing you can rely on is self testing.


 Please read this article:
http://www.bmj.com/content/310/6990/1289.full

DHT is why complete abstinence is impossible for most guys.
DHT makes us go bald.
DHT is going to be produced even if you could completely stop.
DHT is result of testosterone + 5 alpha reductase

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## beatinghairloss

> Please read this article:
> http://www.bmj.com/content/310/6990/1289.full
> 
> DHT is why complete abstinence is impossible for most guys.
> DHT makes us go bald.
> DHT is going to be produced even if you could completely stop.
> DHT is result of testosterone + 5 alpha reductase


 Do you realize you just posted a study that says if you ejaculate one more time per week your DHT is higher? Your not gonna say its the other way Around you don't spontaneously ejaculate because your horny you get Hornyer and do it more often because of sexual stimulation. So your counter argument study is oxymoron.

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## beatinghairloss

MPB. did you even read that study you posted? Just wondering because thats pretty much my biggest contributor for my theory and you tried to use it against me? Have you read any of the research on the link between the prostate, ejaculation and hair loss? Did you read the prostate function link I just posted or have you come up with your conclusions with no alternative thought at all?   

Its scary to think you would rule this out without even an objective thought. Like I said I will lose my hair if it means enjoying one of the best things in life but that doesn't mean I dont fully understand that its a trade off.....Hair for sex....This ironic because without mastering self control and keeping ejaculations at bay you wont be able to get laid anyways....shity yes but it is the truth.

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## mpb47

> MPB. did you even read that study you posted? Just wondering because thats pretty much my biggest contributor for my theory and you tried to use it against me? Have you read any of the research on the link between the prostate, ejaculation and hair loss? Did you read the prostate function link I just posted or have you come up with your conclusions with no alternative thought at all?   
> 
> Its scary to think you would rule this out without even an objective thought. Like I said I will lose my hair if it means enjoying one of the best things in life but that doesn't mean I dont fully understand that its a trade off.....Hair for sex....This ironic because without mastering self control and keeping ejaculations at bay you wont be able to get laid anyways....shity yes but it is the truth.


 Of course I read it. But it's pretty clear that you refuse to believe there is a difference between causality and correlation. If you really believe what you are saying then you should try it and see what happens. But think about this: if the prostate is the issue, then why do women, who do not have prostates often bald just like we do if given T ?

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## beatinghairloss

> Of course I read it. But it's pretty clear that you refuse to believe there is a difference between causality and correlation. If you really believe what you are saying then you should try it and see what happens. But think about this: if the prostate is the issue, then why do women, who do not have prostates often bald just like we do if given T ?


 Again you have brought up a double edge sword. Your prostate is not the only place where you convert T-DHT however it is the primary place. This means you can not use your prostate and work out like crazy all the time and still lose your hair. Women can convert DHT from the little amounts of T they have in the brain and muscles. If you give a women T it is probably because they are weight lifting which means they would be able to convert it that way. Either way the fact is if you do not alter a womans hormones by adding a male androgen then they never bald in the way we do and the ones who do lose hair are few and far between.

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## beatinghairloss

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2055645

Read this article again. Notice how it says that there is 95% of the T being converted to DHT that travels through the prostate thats a pretty high number but leaves you enough T to still maintain other bodily functions.

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## 25 going on 65

Most women who get T supplementation aren't weight lifters, they are FTM transgendered people.
Also the prostate gets used whether or not you ejaculate....and men who don't masturbate or have sex experience ejaculations during other times such as during sleep or even during certain exercises.
And women who experience pattern baldness are actually very common, most have experienced some degree of it by old age, but they typically have female-pattern loss and not male-pattern unless they are supplemented with T. Then it goes male-pattern.
DHT "traveling through the prostate".....correlation isn't cause

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## beatinghairloss

> Most women who get T supplementation aren't weight lifters, they are FTM transgendered people.
> Also the prostate gets used whether or not you ejaculate....and men who don't masturbate or have sex experience ejaculations during other times such as during sleep or even during certain exercises.
> And women who experience pattern baldness are actually very common, most have experienced some degree of it by old age, but they typically have female-pattern loss and not male-pattern unless they are supplemented with T. Then it goes male-pattern.
> DHT "traveling through the prostate".....correlation isn't cause


 You have merely circle talked the points I made you cannot deny the fact that 95% of T is converted into DHT for the function of the prostate to add semen. If you do not use it often you will not just make semen that vanishes.  Even if aroused and not ejaculating you urinate your semen out this is very noticeable and otherwise if you are not you will not make it. I have gone three weeks without and never had an exercise orgasm or anything like you describe. Most importantly you forget that Propecia was originally made for BPH, that castrated men dont lose any more hair, and that 7 days of abstinence there is a spike in T because the body stops making DHT as it fills the prostate with semen. This is fact and I can't believe people on this who so badly want to keep their hair would ignore this. Its mind boggling to me. I enjoy sex with my partner and will continue to do so till I am as bald as an eagle but I do know whats causing it. At the very least you should be able to admit if the prostate converts T to DHT and some low level no matter what that if you are constantly using to ejaculate of course that would increase it. HOW AND THE HELL CAN ANY EDUCATED PERSON DENY THAT UNLESS THEY HAVE NOT DONE ANY READING ON THE SUBJECT AT ALL?

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## 25 going on 65

> You have merely circle talked the points I made you cannot deny the fact that 95% of T is converted into DHT for the function of the prostate to add semen. If you do not use it often you will not just make semen that vanishes.  Even if aroused and not ejaculating you urinate your semen out this is very noticeable and otherwise if you are not you will not make it. I have gone three weeks without and never had an exercise orgasm or anything like you describe. Most importantly you forget that Propecia was originally made for BPH, that castrated men dont lose any more hair, and that 7 days of abstinence there is a spike in T because the body stops making DHT as it fills the prostate with semen. This is fact and I can't believe people on this who so badly want to keep their hair would ignore this. Its mind boggling to me. I enjoy sex with my partner and will continue to do so till I am as bald as an eagle but I do know whats causing it. At the very least you should be able to admit if the prostate converts T to DHT and some low level no matter what that if you are constantly using to ejaculate of course that would increase it. HOW AND THE HELL CAN ANY EDUCATED PERSON DENY THAT UNLESS THEY HAVE NOT DONE ANY READING ON THE SUBJECT AT ALL?


 Men who don't ejaculate through sex or masturbation do in fact have nocturnal emissions and can also ejaculate while awake. Hence the maligned "bench press ejaculation."
The varying levels of DHT that come with, eg, physical activity don't have an appreciable effect on balding because 1. long-term the changes aren't significant relative to DHT levels in general, and 2. the problem with MPB sufferers isn't actually DHT levels but follicular sensitivity to the hormone. Hence why some men with abnormally high DHT don't go bald, while men with abnormally low DHT do.
Also I might have misinterpreted what you were trying to say but 95% of T isn't converted to DHT in males, about 5% is.
And DHT is synthesized in testes, glands producing adrenal hormones as well as (importantly) hair follicles so even with no prostate synthesis the hormone would be produced exactly where we least want it (follicles).
Anyway I must bring us back to the fact that no study has ever shown reduced ejaculation to have any appreciable effect on hair loss, and those who have tried it have failed to stop their MPB.

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## beatinghairloss

> Men who don't ejaculate through sex or masturbation do in fact have nocturnal emissions and can also ejaculate while awake. Hence the maligned "bench press ejaculation."
> The varying levels of DHT that come with, eg, physical activity don't have an appreciable effect on balding because 1. long-term the changes aren't significant relative to DHT levels in general, and 2. the problem with MPB sufferers isn't actually DHT levels but follicular sensitivity to the hormone. Hence why some men with abnormally high DHT don't go bald, while men with abnormally low DHT do.
> Also I might have misinterpreted what you were trying to say but 95% of T isn't converted to DHT in males, about 5% is.
> And DHT is synthesized in testes, glands producing adrenal hormones as well as (importantly) hair follicles so even with no prostate synthesis the hormone would be produced exactly where we least want it (follicles).
> Anyway I must bring us back to the fact that no study has ever shown reduced ejaculation to have any appreciable effect on hair loss, and those who have tried it have failed to stop their MPB.


 Hair growth is affected by multiple factors much like the growth of a plant in your garden. You do not simply plant a seed in dry ground and expect the sun to do all the work. You also need water. Additionally this water and soil needs certain nutrients to maintain the optimal level of plant health. The soil must be loose enough for aeration to occur otherwise the water cannot move about freely to the roots. Well much like a plant needing sun, water, and nutrients hair needs nutrient rich blood, hormones and a healthy thick loose scalp. Some hormones promote body and facial hair and some promote hair on the head. It just so happens that the hormone that promotes facial and body hair also damages hair on the head under the wrong condition. I will get to that wrong condition in a moment. First what is this hormone that promotes facial and body hair and is also the main cause for Male Pattern Baldness (MPB)? Its called Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and its a potent androgen that is converted from Testosterone (T) in many places but primarily in your Prostate. This is common knowledge that DHT is the culprit behind MPB and all medications on the market aim at stopping this conversion of T-DHT. The only medication that has had any real success with this was first introduced to the public under the brand name Propecia. Propecia claims to block the enzyme responsible for making this conversion of T-DHT and that enzyme is called the 5-Alpha Reductase. If you dont already know, an enzyme is a catalyst that speeds up or in some cases makes a chemical reaction happen that otherwise would not have been possible. Propecia makers originally prescribed the medication for people experiencing Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BPH) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finasteride. In other words BPH is simply an enlarged prostate usually noticed by an increased in urine frequency and in most cases difficulty urinating. Propecia works by reducing the size of the prostate and it was later that it was discovered to grow hair on balding crowns of men. Sense then they have hypothesized that Propecia blocks T-DHT conversion via the inhibiting of the 5-Alpha Reductase. Its mechanism for doing this or to what degree it does is irrelevant because its merely counter acting what causes the prostate to work which is the 5-Alpha Reductase which is activated via ejaculation. As Testosterone leaves the testicle(s) along with Sperm it travels to the Prostate where the semen is excreted through Dermal Cells to join the Semen to make the total ejaculate http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2055645. Semen from the prostate keeps the sperm alive in the highly acidic Vagina. 95% of the Testosterone that gets to the prostate is converted into Dihydrotestosterone. These hormones are very much essential for reproductions and go on to be key in mammalian hair growth. Around age 12 your prostate is only the size of pea where it begins a rapid growth phase that will slow down in your early 20s. After you have reached this age and subsequently this size prostate you now are able per ejaculation to put out more DHT than ever before. So then DHT will promote hair growth in many places in your body before it affects hair however at high enough levels you begin to experience free DHT that simply has nowhere to go. A hair has growth phase of 6 years so if you have all the hair you need growing and you continue to have high DHT its going to be expelled out of your body VIA acne. Now this would be fine if it were not for that condition that I mentioned in the beginning. Because of various factors that are being discovered as you read this the scalp of males and females can become very tight. It is in this tight scalp that DHT cannot make it across the tiny capillaries running across the top of your head. The DHT literally gets clogged in the run off to the hair follicle and the hair starves to death. The tightness of the scalp comes in many forms and where that pressure is applied is what will begin this balding process and also how fast the pressure is applied will determine how quickly you lose your hair in those areas. Some people the pressure gives at certain areas so they dont lose as much hair other its all over and for some there is no pressure at all and you experience heavy body hair, acne, or sweat profusely and DHT exits without causing any hair loss at all.

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## beatinghairloss

Sense you are hell-bent on having proof. There is no evidence that DHT is made in the hair follicle, we find it there we only speculate that its synthesized there. If you dissect a body the highest quantity of DHT found anywhere is the prostate BY FAR!!! Most of your information comes from assumed scientific fact while mine comes from observed scientific fact.

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## 25 going on 65

> Hair growth is affected by multiple factors much like the growth of a plant in your garden. You do not simply plant a seed in dry ground and expect the sun to do all the work. You also need water. Additionally this water and soil needs certain nutrients to maintain the optimal level of plant health. The soil must be loose enough for aeration to occur otherwise the water cannot move about freely to the roots. Well much like a plant needing sun, water, and nutrients hair needs nutrient rich blood, hormones and a healthy thick loose scalp. Some hormones promote body and facial hair and some promote hair on the head. It just so happens that the hormone that promotes facial and body hair also damages hair on the head under the wrong condition. I will get to that wrong condition in a moment. First what is this hormone that promotes facial and body hair and is also the main cause for Male Pattern Baldness (MPB)? Its called Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and its a potent androgen that is converted from Testosterone (T) in many places but primarily in your Prostate. This is common knowledge that DHT is the culprit behind MPB and all medications on the market aim at stopping this conversion of T-DHT. The only medication that has had any real success with this was first introduced to the public under the brand name Propecia. Propecia claims to block the enzyme responsible for making this conversion of T-DHT and that enzyme is called the 5-Alpha Reductase. If you dont already know, an enzyme is a catalyst that speeds up or in some cases makes a chemical reaction happen that otherwise would not have been possible. Propecia makers originally prescribed the medication for people experiencing Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BPH) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finasteride. In other words BPH is simply an enlarged prostate usually noticed by an increased in urine frequency and in most cases difficulty urinating. Propecia works by reducing the size of the prostate and it was later that it was discovered to grow hair on balding crowns of men. Sense then they have hypothesized that Propecia blocks T-DHT conversion via the inhibiting of the 5-Alpha Reductase. Its mechanism for doing this or to what degree it does is irrelevant because its merely counter acting what causes the prostate to work which is the 5-Alpha Reductase which is activated via ejaculation. As Testosterone leaves the testicle(s) along with Sperm it travels to the Prostate where the semen is excreted through Dermal Cells to join the Semen to make the total ejaculate http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2055645. Semen from the prostate keeps the sperm alive in the highly acidic Vagina. 95% of the Testosterone that gets to the prostate is converted into Dihydrotestosterone. These hormones are very much essential for reproductions and go on to be key in mammalian hair growth. Around age 12 your prostate is only the size of pea where it begins a rapid growth phase that will slow down in your early 20s. After you have reached this age and subsequently this size prostate you now are able per ejaculation to put out more DHT than ever before. So then DHT will promote hair growth in many places in your body before it affects hair however at high enough levels you begin to experience free DHT that simply has nowhere to go. A hair has growth phase of 6 years so if you have all the hair you need growing and you continue to have high DHT its going to be expelled out of your body VIA acne.


 5-ar is produced with or without ejaculation.
Ejaculation occurs with or without sex/masturbation.
Quantity of acne and body hair aren't known to appreciably fluctuate with frequency of ejaculation--not from person to person and not over time in an individual. Probably because the average level of DHT in a person, over time, does not significantly change with the frequency of ejaculation.
Fin has been considered a 5-ar inhibitor since it was sold as purely a prostate drug; it wasn't marketed as purely a "prostate shrinker" which then was "theorized" to inhibit 5-ar.
Prostate shrinkage is the result of finasteride binding to the 5-ar enzyme and inhibiting production of DHT, not the other way around.





> Now this would be fine if it were not for that condition that I mentioned in the beginning. Because of various factors that are being discovered as you read this the scalp of males and females can become very tight. It is in this tight scalp that DHT cannot make it across the tiny capillaries running across the top of your head. The DHT literally gets clogged in the run off to the hair follicle and the hair starves to death. The tightness of the scalp comes in many forms and where that pressure is applied is what will begin this balding process and also how fast the pressure is applied will determine how quickly you lose your hair in those areas. Some people the pressure gives at certain areas so they dont lose as much hair other its all over and for some there is no pressure at all and you experience heavy body hair, acne, or sweat profusely and DHT exits without causing any hair loss at all.


 Tightness of scalp as a hair loss catalyst is a wives tale with no solid evidence behind it. Many hair loss sufferers have higher scalp laxity than average, particularly those who perform scalp exercises in the run up to hair transplantation. Also many men free of MPB have tight scalps.
I don't know why this old idea doesn't die off in the era of the internet but here it is. Hair transplants alone kill this idea off. When you transplant DHT-sensitive follicles from the scalp to anywhere else, they keep miniaturizing regardless of surrounding tissue laxity. Yet hairs transplanted from the horse shoe region do not.




> There is no evidence that DHT is made in the hair follicle, we find it there we only speculate that its synthesized there.


 "Don't troll me bro."

On a last note, the reason I put emphasis on having ANY study showing that reduced ejaculation can slow, stop or reverse hair loss is because that's what would demonstrate a causal relationship. Correlation isn't cause. Determining a cause takes more than cherry picking a handful of observations and playing connect-the-dots with guesswork. E.g. from what we know about saw palmetto, it "makes sense" that this substance SHOULD be able to prevent or at least noticeably slow MPB. But it doesn't. It simply doesn't work.
The same goes for abstinence and scalp massages, except neither has the amount of promising evidence behind it as saw palmetto once did.

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## 25 going on 65

.......however like with SP, we have a long procession of anecdotes from men who tried to treat their MPB by not ejaculating and by exercising their scalps. And like with SP, they failed to show improvement.

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## beatinghairloss

> 5-ar is produced with or without ejaculation.
> Ejaculation occurs with or without sex/masturbation.
> Quantity of acne and body hair aren't known to appreciably fluctuate with frequency of ejaculation--not from person to person and not over time in an individual. Probably because the average level of DHT in a person, over time, does not significantly change with the frequency of ejaculation.
> Fin has been considered a 5-ar inhibitor since it was sold as purely a prostate drug; it wasn't marketed as purely a "prostate shrinker" which then was "theorized" to inhibit 5-ar.
> Prostate shrinkage is the result of finasteride binding to the 5-ar enzyme and inhibiting production of DHT, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

5-Ar is produced without ejaculation....? PROVE IT...  This and everything you have said including your claim that ejaculation frequency doesn't effect hair loss is a lie because you have not scientific proof. None show me a study that says if you dont ejaculate 5-Ar is still made show me one. You don't have any but you believe so much that ejaculation has nothing to do with hair loss you just assume.

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## 25 going on 65

> 5-Ar is produced without ejaculation....? PROVE IT...  This and everything you have said including your claim that ejaculation frequency doesn't effect hair loss is a lie because you have not scientific proof. None show me a study that says if you dont ejaculate 5-Ar is still made show me one. You don't have any but you believe so much that ejaculation has nothing to do with hair loss you just assume.


  :Confused: 
5-ar is produced not only in the reproductive anatomy but the skin. You don't have to ejaculate for this to happen, in fact males with anejaculation disorder still create the enzyme in their tissues. Anejaculation is actually fairly common and if it caused a complete halt of all 5-ar production (therefore a halt on all DHT synthesis) it would be highly obvious. (Come to think of it, a male going through puberty with anejaculation would not even be able to develop normally.)
Also females produce the 5-ar enzyme despite having different sexual anatomy (no prostate, testes, epididymis, etc.) and despite that they don't "ejaculate" in the sense men do. I don't know who gave you the idea that the body cannot create 5-ar without ejaculating but it's a completely random connection.
And I have no burden of evidence as far as "ejaculation doesn't make you lose your hair," it's not my responsibility to prove a negative. You're the one claiming ejaculation DOES make you lose hair, so the burden of proof is on you, or at least the burden to give us some kind of solid evidence of a causal relationship. This is like me insisting that ejaculation causes blindness because you don't have controlled studies to demonstrate it doesn't.

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## beatinghairloss

> 5-ar is produced not only in the reproductive anatomy but the skin. You don't have to ejaculate for this to happen, in fact males with anejaculation disorder still create the enzyme in their tissues. Anejaculation is actually fairly common and if it caused a complete halt of all 5-ar production (therefore a halt on all DHT synthesis) it would be highly obvious. (Come to think of it, a male going through puberty with anejaculation would not even be able to develop normally.)
> Also females produce the 5-ar enzyme despite having different sexual anatomy (no prostate, testes, epididymis, etc.) and despite that they don't "ejaculate" in the sense men do. I don't know who gave you the idea that the body cannot create 5-ar without ejaculating but it's a completely random connection.
> And I have no burden of evidence as far as "ejaculation doesn't make you lose your hair," it's not my responsibility to prove a negative. You're the one claiming ejaculation DOES make you lose hair, so the burden of proof is on you, or at least the burden to give us some kind of solid evidence of a causal relationship. This is like me insisting that ejaculation causes blindness because you don't have controlled studies to demonstrate it doesn't.


 I have no doubt that dht is created in the muscles and tissue small number but primarily in the prostate. Women have a female prostate that even releases hormones during ejaculation look it up. Men have much higher occurrence of balding and explain why Castrated men don't bald if the tissue dht is so detrimental?

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