# Men's Hair Loss > Introduce Yourself & Share Your Story >  Hi, 28 year old, lack of hair on crown

## mnx

Hey all.

I am currently 28, and I became aware of a minor spot on the crown about 4 years ago. For about 3 years time, it was a minor bother, I was not sure as to whether it was the beginning of hair loss or just a hair whorl I had since I was a child being more pronounced.

I kept a loose eye on it, with the help of mirror and camera, but it did not start to genuinely bother me until about 6-7 months ago.

I would say that it had not rapidly diminished, in fact, at times I've not been sure if I'm just paranoid about it, and that it is a non issue. At any rate, I have been watching it closely, and taking pictures.

Over the last month or two however, it went from a concern into an obsession. It appears to me to have gotten significantly worse in a significantly small amount of time, noticeable change in 1-2 weeks after years of little to no change. Over the last two weeks I have trouble thinking of anything else, and I have studied hair loss quite a bit lately.

Even now, it isn't quite what I'd call severe hair loss, but it is getting to being worrisome, and I don't feel comfortable with it. I often feel obligated to wear a hat or beanie. It has finally got to the point where I feel a strong sense of urgency to do whatever I can to turn back this tide.

I will post a pic or a few in a bit, but here's some information.
-no baldness on mothers side of family, tons on fathers side(I had though mothers side was what mattered, and so I hadn't feared going bald)
-I've always been susceptible to stress, and I lost a lot of hairs when I was 19-20 a midst a mental breakdown of sorts, but had since grown them back, never had a bald patch from it
-Several months ago, I had small lighter hairs in my crown. If I died them, almost all skin was covered up and I felt confident. The small light hairs seem to have gone away, and this concerns me.
-I recently moved, and have been relatively stressed lately, but I have my doubts that this is the cause of my problems

Anyways, among my research I've learned that stopping DHT is integral in preventing further loss, and allowing regrowth. I've heard propecia(finasteride) is effective, but I fear the sexual side effects too much to use at this stage. So as a result, I've been looking into all natural ways of dealing with DHT(Saw Palmetto, Pumpkin seed, etc.). I have been somewhat interested in Provillus.

My current planned course of action is to aggressively take supplements geared at stopping DHT and 5 alpha reductase. I have formulated my own regimen based on some treatments on the market as well as my own research. I'll put a complete list of this regimen up if anyone is interested later.

Another prong of my attack is going to be the use of a shampoo  http://www.swansonvitamins.com/AVL025/ItemDetail
This shampoo has saw palmetto as well as a few other supplements that supposedly help attack DHT as well.

Thirdly, I am going to start Minoxidil soon. I plan on going to doctor this week to see if I can confirm the cause of my hair loss, then go ahead with the use of Minoxidil. I am somewhat hopeful since Minoxidil is most effective seemingly for people with my description.

Also, as a side, I'm keeping my eye on a product called cabooki. It shakes fibers onto your hair and is a concealer. I want to try to fix before I try to conceal though. I am impressed with the effect of that product though.

Ok, all that is out of the way. I appreciate any advice and encouragement anyone can give me.

Thanks,
mnx

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## mnx

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

These are both from a few days ago.

Not great lighting, but this was only 2 months ago.
[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

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## mnx

Also to note I haven't lost a single hair from the front. At first I took relief from that thinking it might rule out MPB, but then I learned it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

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## StressedToTheBald

I wouldn't bet its MPB, some people seem to have that appearance on the crown naturally.

Glad to hear You are staying off propecia.. its a health hazard. Its now officially linked to permanent erectile dysfunction, cancer, depression etc. by 2 top US studies of Dr. Traish(Boston) and Dr. Irwig(Washington)..
http://www.examiner.com/courts-in-ba...#ixzz1mLgDjzw3

I myself am using several natural DHT inhibitors.. 510mg of beta sitosterol, 300mg saw palmetto, 200mg pygeum etc. As for saw palmetto in the shampoo, its good stuff overall, but I haven't seen reports of it beeing to block DHT when used topically. It can't hurt though, so if You wish give it a try and do send some updates.

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## StressedToTheBald

For stress btw, I currently use B100, complex of all B vitamins, 1500mg vitamin C.. I also use 5-HTP 100mg, but unless You're really stressed and have trouble with sleeping like I do, You might want to avoid it. Melatonin is also good for sleep BUT can easily leave You groggy the next day.

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## Tracy C

Hi mnx,

It does not matter which side of your family has hereditary hair loss.  You can inherit it from either side.

What you have going on does not look bad but it does look like the typical start of hereditary hair loss.  If this does bother you, you should see a doctor who specializes in treating hair loss.  Here is a link to help you find a good one.  Though these doctors are hair transplant surgeons, don't let that scare you off.  You do not need a transplant and they will see that.  They will tell you what you need to do to manage it.

http://www.iahrs.org/hair-transplant/

Provillus is a complete scam.  Natural DHT blockers do nothing to slow down, stop or reverse hereditary hair loss.  No one has ever been able to slow down, stop or reverse hereditary hair loss with natural DHT blockers.  Taking the natural course is a waste of time, money and your hair.  Don't listen to the fear mongers about Propecia.  The medicine does have possible side effects but the percentage of males who experience them is very small and the side effects usually go away, even for those who continue to use the medication.  Talk to a doctor who specializes in treating hair loss to get the real information about Propecia.

You can find the most truthful information on treating hereditary hair loss at this link:

http://www.americanhairloss.org/

You will learn that there are only two medications that are proven to work and FDA approved to treat hereditary hair loss.  Those medications are Propecia (or generic Finasteride) and Rogaine (or generic Minoxidil).  Nizoral shampoo and low level laser therapy can help as adjunct treatments but everything else on the market is a complete scam.  Don't fall for the scams.

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## chrisis

Tracy C, I've read people who've had success with saw palmetto. The number of men who have side effects from finasteride is up for debate.

I think that's the balanced view on this topic, since it's a complex and uncertain one.

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## Tracy C

> Tracy C, I've read people who've had success with saw palmetto.


 Ask them to provide photo evidence as proof.

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## mnx

> I wouldn't bet its MPB, some people seem to have that appearance on the crown naturally.
> 
> Glad to hear You are staying off propecia.. its a health hazard. Its now officially linked to permanent erectile dysfunction, cancer, depression etc. by 2 top US studies of Dr. Traish(Boston) and Dr. Irwig(Washington)..
> http://www.examiner.com/courts-in-ba...#ixzz1mLgDjzw3
> 
> I myself am using several natural DHT inhibitors.. 510mg of beta sitosterol, 300mg saw palmetto, 200mg pygeum etc. As for saw palmetto in the shampoo, its good stuff overall, but I haven't seen reports of it beeing to block DHT when used topically. It can't hurt though, so if You wish give it a try and do send some updates.


 


> For stress btw, I currently use B100, complex of all B vitamins, 1500mg vitamin C.. I also use 5-HTP 100mg, but unless You're really stressed and have trouble with sleeping like I do, You might want to avoid it. Melatonin is also good for sleep BUT can easily leave You groggy the next day.


 Thanks for the reply. I recently started using melatonin for stress, also started taking multivitamins to help with that. I'll look into 5HTP, thanks.

I'm basically trying to take a bunch of different natural supplements that have shown some 5 alpha reductase inhibiting ability in various studies, as well as certain nutrients that nourish the hair I do have(msm, silica, PABA etc).

I intend to update as I go.

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## chrisis

It's true I've not seen photo evidence, but the problem is not many people are bothering with saw palmetto, given that finasteride is heavily promoted as superior. Of those men, a fraction will be actually administering it effectively (the correct type of saw palmetto, the correct dose, in conjunction with beta sitoserol and over a long enough time period). Of those men, a fraction will be documenting it with photos over the space of several years. Of those men, only a fraction will actually be successful at controlling their hair loss (as with finasteride). 

It's easy to understand why it's hard to get testimonials, let alone testimonials with photographic proof.

All I'm saying is the topic is too complicated to boldly write-off saw palmetto.

We're all feeling around in the dark here.

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## mnx

> Hi mnx,
> 
> It does not matter which side of your family has hereditary hair loss.  You can inherit it from either side.
> 
> What you have going on does not look bad but it does look like the typical start of hereditary hair loss.  If this does bother you, you should see a doctor who specializes in treating hair loss.  Here is a link to help you find a good one.  Though these doctors are hair transplant surgeons, don't let that scare you off.  You do not need a transplant and they will see that.  They will tell you what you need to do to manage it.
> 
> http://www.iahrs.org/hair-transplant/
> 
> Provillus is a complete scam.  Natural DHT blockers do nothing to slow down, stop or reverse hereditary hair loss.  No one has ever been able to slow down, stop or reverse hereditary hair loss with natural DHT blockers.  Taking the natural course is a waste of time, money and your hair.  Don't listen to the fear mongers about Propecia.  The medicine does have possible side effects but the percentage of males who experience them is very small and the side effects usually go away, even for those who continue to use the medication.  Talk to a doctor who specializes in treating hair loss to get the real information about Propecia.
> ...


 Thanks for the reply.

That's what I've been concerned about. While the hair loss isn't too bad yet, it looks like its heading that direction.

Thanks for the links. I really do want to see a specialist, and I found one near by on the list. I'll make sure to hash out with him what of the big 3 he thinks is good for me and his information on the risk involved.

I've been into nutrition and natural supplements for awhile, and I felt like it has really helped my overall health, especially helping me overcome serious digestive issues. Your point about the unproven efficacy of natural supplements used for hair loss is well taken though. If I do in fact have the beginnings of MPB, I understand that this is an acute and aggressive issue with body chemistry and my use of supplements will probably not be sufficient for the results I desire. I still am very hesitant to consider finasteride.

At the stage I am at, and until I sit down and talk with a specialist, I'll bide my time with my regimen and hope that the progression is slow. Part of me still hopes that this is just fallout from some extreme stress I've had lately.

Thanks again for advice.

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## mnx

> It's true I've not seen photo evidence, but the problem is not many people are bothering with saw palmetto, given that finasteride is heavily promoted as superior. 
> 
> There are only a few people who try it, but they're a fraction of the men who even bother to research the topic properly. Of those men, a fraction will be actually administering it effectively (the correct type of saw palmetto, the correct dose, in conjunction with beta sitoserol and over a long enough time period). Of those men, a fraction will be documenting it with photos over the space of several years. Of those men, only a fraction will actually be successful at controlling their hair loss (as with finasteride). 
> 
> It's easy to understand why it's hard to get testimonials, let alone testimonials with photographic proof.
> 
> All I'm saying is the topic is too complicated to boldly write-off saw palmetto.
> 
> We're all feeling around in the dark here.


 I think you and stbb make a good point. I'm not completely writing off the effect of the correct supplements. There are no clinical trials or testimonies proving their success, but there is some science attached to various herbs and their abilities as 5 alpha reductase inhibitors. I think they have the potential for some effects, and since my hair loss to this point hasn't been very aggressive I'm willing to give them a shot.

I figure until the time I'm willing to try finasteride, if that happens, I may as well try it out.

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## mnx

A couple questions for Tracy or whoever can answer. (I will ask specialist when I am able to meet with one, but any answer I can get now is greatly appreciated)

I've read somewhere that finasteride is only effective at stopping hair loss at stage 2 or 3. Myself being early in the process, should that preclude my use of it until I'm more progressed? Would it not be able to stop hair loss at it's current state?

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## 25 going on 65

I would say with almost total certainty that you are in the beginning stages of hereditary hair loss, if I'm going by the crown. 

A hair loss specialist could tell you for sure.

If it is MPB, I suggest using a proven DHT suppressant that can stop and help reverse the loss. There are two of these on the market, finasteride and dutasteride. I would strongly recommend the former over the latter to start with. Both have a risk of side effects, but they are significantly higher with dutasteride (and there is also much less information currently about using dutasteride long-term for hair loss).
I don't recommend spending time on alternative remedies like saw palmetto, because there isn't scientific evidence that they can maintain your hair. If you get unacceptable side effects from finasteride, you could try experimenting with alternatives at that point, but if you do things in reverse order you will lose more hair than you have to. Delaying treatment for just one year can unfortunately have a noticeable cosmetic impact.
(2% ketoconazole shampoo and minoxidil are good supporting treatments, but on their own they won't maintain your hair or reverse your loss in the long term.)
Good luck.

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## mnx

> I would say with almost total certainty that you are in the beginning stages of hereditary hair loss, if I'm going by the crown. 
> 
> A hair loss specialist could tell you for sure.
> 
> If it is MPB, I suggest using a proven DHT suppressant that can stop and help reverse the loss. There are two of these on the market, finasteride and dutasteride. I would strongly recommend the former over the latter to start with. Both have a risk of side effects, but they are significantly higher with dutasteride (and there is also much less information currently about using dutasteride long-term for hair loss).
> I don't recommend spending time on alternative remedies like saw palmetto, because there isn't scientific evidence that they can maintain your hair. If you get unacceptable side effects from finasteride, you could try experimenting with alternatives at that point, but if you do things in reverse order you will lose more hair than you have to. Delaying treatment for just one year can unfortunately have a noticeable cosmetic impact.
> (2% ketoconazole shampoo and minoxidil are good supporting treatments, but on their own they won't maintain your hair or reverse your loss in the long term.)
> Good luck.


 Thanks for the advice. My hair is very important to me, and if finasteride is the absolute best answer I may be able to talk myself into doing it.

The time issue is not lost on me at all, I am currently considering all options.

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## chrisis

mnx, my advice if you start on finasteride would be to start at a lower dose, and take your time working up. 

I started on 1.25mg (5mg generic cut into 4) but got definite side effects after 2-3 months in. This was despite being optimistic and somewhat dismissive about sides. Some people have alleged it's probably in my head, but since they haven't been through the experience they really aren't qualified to speak on it. Might as well ask them to talk about how it feels to be a lesbian or a unicorn.

I recently learned 0.5mg is almost as effective. Even 0.25mg is still very good so if I was to start again, I'd go with 0.25mg. I may try it again at that dose, but I'm waiting for my libido to fully return. 4 days off it and I'm waiting...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## mnx

> mnx, my advice if you start on finasteride would be to start at a lower dose, and take your time working up. 
> 
> I started on 1.25mg (5mg generic cut into 4) but got definite side effects after 2-3 months in. This was despite being optimistic and somewhat dismissive about sides. Some people have alleged it's probably in my head, but since they haven't been through the experience they really aren't qualified to speak on it. Might as well ask them to talk about how it feels to be a lesbian or a unicorn.
> 
> I recently learned 0.5mg is almost as effective. Even 0.25mg is still very good so if I was to start again, I'd go with 0.25mg. I may try it again at that dose, but I'm waiting for my libido to fully return. 4 days off it and I'm waiting...


 Did you notice any positive results in that time? A low dose might be good for me. Good luck with your libido, not a side effect I take lightly  :Frown:

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## StressedToTheBald

> Thanks for the reply. I recently started using melatonin for stress, also started taking multivitamins to help with that. I'll look into 5HTP, thanks.
> 
> I'm basically trying to take a bunch of different natural supplements that have shown some 5 alpha reductase inhibiting ability in various studies, as well as certain nutrients that nourish the hair I do have(msm, silica, PABA etc).
> 
> I intend to update as I go.


 You're very welcome.
Well, I use melatonin for sleep, but if You use it too often then the body gets used to it and it doesn't work as well as in the starts. Also it can easily leave You groggy the next day.. Thats why I've not switched to 5-HTP. If You use melatonin btw.. they're usually sold in 3mg.. You can cut the tablet in half, even 1,5mg will work well enough.

I'm doing the same, I've pilled up and made plenty of research on natural DHT inhibitors and hair supplements. I soon plan to include reishi(ganoderma lucidum).. the study on it says it reports up to 50% DHT.. so that plus beta sitosterol, saw palmetto etc.. Its some of my main ingredients. I also use MSM, now about 3,000mg daily, and some silica via horsetail tea. You might want to consider arginine as well - it boosts nitric oxide and blood flow in the folicles.. I use it via protein shakes, now will be 3,500mg+ daily.

Please do keep me updated, I will too, its good to meet people who actually do the research and have some wisdom to share. Way too many people here have no research background nor solid arguments and are sadly only here to promote that hazardous drug called propecia..

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## itssomuchfun

Wow, you have the exact same hair loss pattern I had at 28. I'm 31 now. I didn't do anything about it at the time because no noticed it and everywhere else was thick with no receding hairline. I agree it's probably the onset of MPB, especially since you have hairloss in your family.  

All the other posters here seem to have covered everything pretty well.  See a hair loss dermatologist and see what they can do for treatment. Make sure you weigh the risks/rewards of drugs like propecia/proscar. I have chosen not to try it because the possibility (I didn't care how small the possibility) of sexual side effects, both long or short term. I started Rogaine this year and it has been slow going and there has been some shedding involved which is something you might want to keep in mind if you start it.  It's like a lot of drugs where it makes things worse before it makes things better, but supposedly if you stick with it for 6-8 months. Also it apparently works better when you're younger.  The company Rogaine claims 85% of men regrew hair, but I've seen clinical studies that report it's closer to 55%. 

Lastly, start conditioning yourself for what baldness might be like. I rarely see people suggest this on websites. With treatment you may keep your hair looking pretty damn good for many years, but eventually it will fall out if it's in your genes.  I wouldn't hold my breath for "the cure" even though there have been some great advances and I don't think it's healthy to pin so much hope on the possibility coming soon, even though I hope it does.

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## StressedToTheBald

> There are no clinical trials or testimonies proving their success, but there is some science attached to various herbs and their abilities as 5 alpha reductase inhibitors.


 There actually are, a small study on beta sitosterol + saw palmetto has reported a success rate of 60%.

Also other studies have reported that these natural DHT inhibitors do not show significant nor permanent side effects as with propecia.

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## 25 going on 65

mnx,

To answer your other question, DHT suppressants fight hair loss no matter what stage you're in. You don't need to wait for the condition to progress. Generally, the earlier you start a regimen, the more effective it will be.
But if you want to hold off on medication until you see a hair loss specialist, there's nothing wrong with that.

chris is right that there is a risk of side effects from finasteride. These often resolve themselves while continuing to take the medication, but not always.
Most people tolerate this medicine well, but if you're not one of them, his advice on lowering your dosage will probably be very useful.

StressedToTheBald should generally be ignored. He has been hijacking every active thread with alarmist propaganda about finasteride, while pushing unproven treatments. He also doesn't seem to know how to evaluate scientific studies.
This may sound harsh, but many others on this forum would say the same. You'll notice it too if you stick around long enough.

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## chrisis

> Did you notice any positive results in that time? A low dose might be good for me. Good luck with your libido, not a side effect I take lightly


 Hard to say anything about positive results because I only took it for 3 months. I do see some peach fuzz hair at the corners of my hairline, but that could be down to minoxidil, which I started about a month ago. It could also be a consequence of shedding, which I may have experienced on either of those meds.

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## Kirby_

Yeah, Stressed is just pushing unproven woo like saw palmetto.

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## Tracy C

> Of those men, only a fraction will actually be successful at controlling their hair loss (as with finasteride).


 That "fraction" of men who have successfully managed their hair loss with Finasteride is the larger portion of the total.  This is very well documented and very well known.  To state it as "only a fraction" is slightly unethical, though technically true.  Putting it that way understates the true effectiveness in an attempt to hide it.  Much in the same way that overstating the frequency of side effects hides the facts about possible side effects.  Neither is ethical.  






> It's easy to understand why it's hard to get testimonials, let alone testimonials with photographic proof.
> 
> All I'm saying is the topic is too complicated to boldly write-off saw palmetto.


 You are reaching.  If anyone actually were able to slow down, stop or reverse hereditary hair loss with natural DHT blockers such as Saw Palmetto everyone would know about it.  You would not need to dig very deep to find it.  It would be ight there available for everyone to see.

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## Tracy C

> If I do in fact have the beginnings of MPB, I understand that this is an acute and aggressive issue with body chemistry and my use of supplements will probably not be sufficient for the results I desire. I still am very hesitant to consider finasteride.
> 
> At the stage I am at, and until I sit down and talk with a specialist, I'll bide my time with my regimen and hope that the progression is slow.


 Please understand that I am not totally against suppliments.  I use a specific Hair, Skin & Nails multi-vitamin myself.  When dealing with a natural and normal process such as male and female patterned hereditary hair loss, especially when it is aggressive, supppiments cannot provide a strong fight.

However if you chose to try a natural approach, there is one study that shows some limited merit for a specific Saw Palmetto complex.  Nature's Bounty makes a product that matches the complex tested in that study.  Here is a link to a PDF file of the label that shows the list of ingrediants for that product.

http://images.vitaminimages.com/cdn/...L006052-NB.PDF

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## Tracy C

> I've read somewhere that finasteride is only effective at stopping hair loss at stage 2 or 3.


 The Medication does not care what stage of hair loss you have.  It simply blocks the formation of the hormone that triggers hereditary hair loss (DHT).  The medication can stop hereditary hair loss regardless of what stage you are.  Of course for someone who is beyond NW6 there is no point.






> mnx, my advice if you start on finasteride would be to start at a lower dose, and take your time working up.


 I think this is good advice.  This is what I had to do when I started on Spiro.

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## mnx

> Wow, you have the exact same hair loss pattern I had at 28. I'm 31 now. I didn't do anything about it at the time because no noticed it and everywhere else was thick with no receding hairline. I agree it's probably the onset of MPB, especially since you have hairloss in your family.  
> 
> All the other posters here seem to have covered everything pretty well.  See a hair loss dermatologist and see what they can do for treatment. Make sure you weigh the risks/rewards of drugs like propecia/proscar. I have chosen not to try it because the possibility (I didn't care how small the possibility) of sexual side effects, both long or short term. I started Rogaine this year and it has been slow going and there has been some shedding involved which is something you might want to keep in mind if you start it.  It's like a lot of drugs where it makes things worse before it makes things better, but supposedly if you stick with it for 6-8 months. Also it apparently works better when you're younger.  The company Rogaine claims 85% of men regrew hair, but I've seen clinical studies that report it's closer to 55%. 
> 
> Lastly, start conditioning yourself for what baldness might be like. I rarely see people suggest this on websites. With treatment you may keep your hair looking pretty damn good for many years, but eventually it will fall out if it's in your genes.  I wouldn't hold my breath for "the cure" even though there have been some great advances and I don't think it's healthy to pin so much hope on the possibility coming soon, even though I hope it does.


 Did it happen aggressively for you? How is it now?

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## mnx

> Please understand that I am not totally against suppliments.  I use a specific Hair, Skin & Nails multi-vitamin myself.  When dealing with a natural and normal process such as male and female patterned hereditary hair loss, especially when it is aggressive, supppiments cannot provide a strong fight.
> 
> However if you chose to try a natural approach, there is one study that shows some limited merit for a specific Saw Palmetto complex.  Nature's Bounty makes a product that matches the complex tested in that study.  Here is a link to a PDF file of the label that shows the list of ingrediants for that product.
> 
> http://images.vitaminimages.com/cdn/...L006052-NB.PDF


 Thanks, I think I'll try that product out.

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## mnx

I went to a clinic today, and asked about hair loss(I'll check out a more expensive specialist later).

She thought it was possible MPB but sent me for some blood work to check things out. Apparently really extreme stress can cause delayed hair loss 2-3 months after, and that actually fits my situation. Wishful thinking maybe, but I want to cover all bases.

Anyway, I may as well list my supplement regimen.

Saw Palmetto/ whole berry, 540mg x3 daily(Going to buy a standardized extract complex to replace this)
Multivitamin/ once a day(500&#37; b-6, 100% zinc + usual array, has added Saw Palmetto, Pygeum, evening primrose oil, pumpkin seed)
Hair, Skin, and nails/twice a day(700mg MSM, 250mg horsetail extract 7 % silica, L-Cysteine, Choline, Inositol, PABA)
Biotin/ 1668%, once a day
Black currant seed oil/ 1 gram 14-17% gamma linolenic, twice a day
Virgin Cold pressed Pumpkin seed oil, I put on almost everything I eat, consume a good 1-2 tbsp a day.
Green tea/ 3 cups a day
Trader Joes super green drink/1 scoop a day(Not specifically for hair loss, but the stuff makes me feel great, and there are some things in there that could help at the very least with the health of my hair)
(Buying Beta-sitosterol, nettle leaf, eleuthero ginseng, green tea extract)

Also, I try to eat a very healthy diet. I eat lots of seaweed which is good for your hair, only good fats, not excessive meat, little to no dairy etc. No sugar, I try to limit my carbs in general. Hey this stuff can't hurt.

Buying thickening shampoo with nutrients http://www.avalonorganics.com/?id=88&pid=23

There are some other supplements I'm looking at, such as Reishi mushroom, may add to the list.

Then of course, once I see a specialist or at least a primary care doctor, I may step up the regimen to include the serious stuff.

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## 2020

You don't know if it's MPB? Try to find out before spending money on all those supplements

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## Tracy C

> Anyway, I may as well list my supplement regimen.


 Wow!  You really don't need all that.  It is best to get your nutition from the foods that you eat.  A good quality Hair, Skin & Nails multi-vitamin will have most of what you need anyways.

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## StressedToTheBald

> Anyway, I may as well list my supplement regimen.
> 
> Saw Palmetto/ whole berry, 540mg x3 daily(Going to buy a standardized extract complex to replace this)
> Multivitamin/ once a day(500% b-6, 100% zinc + usual array, has added Saw Palmetto, Pygeum, evening primrose oil, pumpkin seed)
> Hair, Skin, and nails/twice a day(700mg MSM, 250mg horsetail extract 7 % silica, L-Cysteine, Choline, Inositol, PABA)
> Biotin/ 1668%, once a day
> Black currant seed oil/ 1 gram 14-17% gamma linolenic, twice a day
> Virgin Cold pressed Pumpkin seed oil, I put on almost everything I eat, consume a good 1-2 tbsp a day.
> Green tea/ 3 cups a day
> ...


 Those are excellent ingredients. We have plenty in common, my regimen contains many of those compounds You listed. Most importantly - they're safe, unlike that man-poison hazard drug called propecia.

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## 2020

> Those are excellent ingredients. We have plenty in common, my regimen contains many of those compounds You listed. Most importantly - they're safe, unlike that man-poison hazard drug called propecia.


 ^ just so you know, he's still bald... That might tell you something about the efficacy of those supplements  :Big Grin:

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## Tracy C

> Those are excellent ingredients.


 mnx,

StressedToTheBald does not know anything.  The nonsense he keeps shoveling is worthless and will steer you down the wrong path if you believe it.  Following his advice will waste your time, waste your money and waste your hair that could have been saved if you had chosen proven treatments.

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## mnx

> You don't know if it's MPB? Try to find out before spending money on all those supplements


 I would say it is likely, and I don't really want to wait until it is obvious before I address it. Also, those supplements really aren't as expensive as it all sounds.

Some of it I would be consuming anyway(super green drink, pumpkin seed oil, green tea and multivitamin).

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## mnx

> Wow!  You really don't need all that.  It is best to get your nutition from the foods that you eat.  A good quality Hair, Skin & Nails multi-vitamin will have most of what you need anyways.


 I try to eat healthy, and yeah some might be unnecessary, but it really isn't as expensive or troublesome as it sounds.

Honestly I've been big on supplements ever since I used them to combat severe stomach problems, and this amount feels ok to me.

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## mnx

> Those are excellent ingredients. We have plenty in common, my regimen contains many of those compounds You listed. Most importantly - they're safe, unlike that man-poison hazard drug called propecia.


 


> ^ just so you know, he's still bald... That might tell you something about the efficacy of those supplements


 


> mnx,
> 
> StressedToTheBald does not know anything.  The nonsense he keeps shoveling is worthless and will steer you down the wrong path if you believe it.  Following his advice will waste your time, waste your money and waste your hair that could have been saved if you had chosen proven treatments.


 You know, I notice that stbb has a similar interest in herbal supplements, however I am not putting all my eggs in that basket trust me. I appreciate your warnings, I am not buying bogus cures, and I am going to consider the big 3 with advice of a specialist. I also will continue to pursue my own regimen.

I am resolved to do everything in my power to keep my hair.

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## chrisis

mnx, there are people at either sides of the spectrum, either pushing propecia or criticising it. I'm personally in the middle, because the truth is *we don't conclusively know what the risks are, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.*

The facts are that the studies that have been conducted indicate finasteride is useful to stop male pattern baldness, and that it is relatively low risk. However, Merck have recently pulled their website promoting Propecia and are preparing to defend themselves in court. 

Facts aside, my personal experience and that of many others indicates that the risks may be *higher* than Merck and people on these forums suggest.

It's your decision at the end of the day, so try not to be convinced by people at the "poles" of the argument. If you try finasteride, start at a lower dose and work up, but I certainly would applaud you for trying alternatives first, especially if you're just at an early stage in the balding process.

By the way, I had a fine experience with finasteride for 2-3 months and then the side effects kicked in. It's not always instant, apparently. I'm off the drug for nearly a week now and waiting for things to return to normal. I'll inform the board when they do. If they don't, I'll have to see my doctor...

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## StressedToTheBald

> Hi,
> How can I stop falling hair? I am losing hair day by day.denver airport shuttle


 LOL Leave the airport. It can't be good for hair, all them planes coming from above..

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## 2020

> because the truth is *we don't conclusively know what the risks are, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.*


 we don't know the risks and yet FDA concluded that it's safe?
Don't worry, FDA is much more paranoid than you two combined. They wouldn't have approved it if it was unsafe.




> The facts are that the studies that have been conducted indicate finasteride is useful to stop male pattern baldness, and that it is relatively low risk. However, Merck have recently pulled their website promoting Propecia and are preparing to defend themselves in court.


 you do realize that this drug has been around for more than 20 years and its patent is about to expire on 2013? 
There is no need for Merck to advertise it anymore, that's why the website is down.

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## StressedToTheBald

> mnx, there are people at either sides of the spectrum, either pushing propecia or criticising it. I'm personally in the middle, because the truth is *we don't conclusively know what the risks are, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.*


 Taking the fact that *you have quit the drug* and have *personally suffered from the side effects*, I can't see you in the middle, sorry..

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## 25 going on 65

> you do realize that this drug has been around for more than 20 years and its patent is about to expire on 2013?


 This means generic 1 mg finasteride will be available at US pharmacies soon after, right?
Thank god

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## chrisis

> Taking the fact that *you have quit the drug* and have *personally suffered from the side effects*, I can't see you in the middle, sorry..


 I'm in the middle because it's possible I'm just unlucky to be in a small minority of men who suffered the side effects. *I'm inclined to think logically and critically* and I won't let my own negative personal experience turn me into a "hater", just as a positive experience wouldn't make me a "pusher" and dismissive about the risks.




> we don't know the risks and yet FDA concluded that it's safe?
> Don't worry, FDA is much more paranoid than you two combined. They wouldn't have approved it if it was unsafe.


 2020, Propecia's website has been taken down and a link to notify the FDA about side effects has been added. 

You believe this is because their patent will run out in over a year's time? On what basis? Is this standard protocol? Sounds like you know how the industry works.

*NOTE:* The FDA are *not* beyond human error or corruption. There is an entire Wikipedia article here about FDA mistakes and alleged corruption:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici...Administration

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## chrisis

*"A $1.8 million 2006 Institute of Medicine report on pharmaceutical regulation in the U.S. found major deficiencies in the FDA system for ensuring the safety of drugs on the American market. Overall, the authors called for an increase in the regulatory powers, funding, and independence of the FDA"*

In other words, stop suggesting that FDA approval means the drug is necessarily as safe as Merck suggest.

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## StressedToTheBald

> I'm in the middle because it's possible I'm just unlucky to be in a small minority of men who suffered the side effects. *I'm inclined to think logically and critically* and I won't let my own negative personal experience turn me into a "hater", just as a positive experience wouldn't make me a "pusher" and dismissive about the risks.


 But its conflicting.. You also said You don't think Merck's percentages reflect reality.. and truly so, I agree - both Boston and Washington studies dispute Merck's claims and put out much greater percentages.

I don't think You're a part of a small minority chrisis. I believe You are a part of a much larger group of people, a much higher percentage of people who have suffered from this drug in reality. You were lucky in the sense that Your side effects weren't permanent, but thats sadly wasn't the outcome with all people who tried this drug.. People pressing charges and going to courts have had the worst possible outcome.

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## 2020

> 2020, Propecia's website has been taken down and a link to notify the FDA about side effects has been added.


 so what? As I said: propecia is an old drug and their patent is about to expire so there is no reason for Merck to market it anymore.... why keep the website alive when there won't be Propecia in 2013??

Of course they're encouraging you to report side effects to FDA... I'm pretty sure every drug BY LAW has to do that.




> You believe this is because their patent will run out in over a year's time? On what basis?


 believe? That's a fact. Do you know how patents work? They can't hold on to it forever...



yeah yeah FDA made some mistakes in the past but for the most part they're doing a good job.
You think Merck bribed FDA in order to approve Propecia??

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## chrisis

2020, I don't think it's worth discussing this anymore with you because you don't even understand my arguments - you're just too biased and as bad or worse than anyone you criticise. 

At least those in the "anti-finasteride" camp are trying to look out for other people. You're just recklessly endangering other people's health.

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## chrisis

> But its conflicting.. You also said You don't think Merck's percentages reflect reality.. and truly so, I agree - both Boston and Washington studies dispute Merck's claims and put out much greater percentages.


 It's not conflicting. I think people should be told about the availability of finasteride and its effectiveness, BUT they should also be told that the extent of the side effects are currently *unknown*. 

*Why can't anyone else see that this is the reality of the situation?*




> You were lucky in the sense that Your side effects weren't permanent, but thats sadly wasn't the outcome with all people who tried this drug..


 I don't know if my side effects are permanent yet. So far nothing's changed since I stopped the drug, almost a week ago.

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## 2020

> 2020, I don't think it's worth discussing this anymore with you because you don't even understand my arguments - you're just too biased and as bad or worse than anyone you criticise.


 how am I biased? It's true - their patent runs out in 2013 so it seems logical that they would stop marketing it.... Why would you market a product for which you're no longer have exclusive rights?  :Confused: 

The fact that Propecia.com website is no longer available means nothing!

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## chrisis

Just because a company does not have exclusive rights, it doesn't mean they will stop promoting and selling a money-spinning product, especially a year before the patent expires.

Merck will make as much money as they can from Propecia until they can't make anymore. That's how business works.

Nobody except Merck and their representatives will know why the website was taken down, but it's definitely suspicious. If they are preparing to defend themselves in court, then you'd think they'd be supporting the product in every way possible. 

Moves such as this suggest guilt or an attempt to reduce liability.

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## StressedToTheBald

> I don't know if my side effects are permanent yet. So far nothing's changed since I stopped the drug, almost a week ago.


 I didn't know, hope everything get backs to normal.

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## StressedToTheBald

> Nobody except Merck and their representatives will know why the website was taken down, but it's definitely suspicious. If they are preparing to defend themselves in court, then you'd think they'd be supporting the product in every way possible. 
> 
> Moves such as this suggest guilt or an attempt to reduce liability.


 I think whatever they had on the website - including the claims of low risks and underestemated side effects - it all can be used as evidence in the court of law. They're trying to reduce responsibility.. but I don't think pulling down the website will help them much..

Also, I strongly believe their website must have been flooded with complaints of damaged people - also something they couldn't hide or deal with.

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## 2020

> I think whatever they had on the website - including the claims of low risks and underestemated side effects - it all can be used as evidence in the court of law. They're trying to reduce responsibility.. but I don't think pulling down the website will help them much..
> 
> Also, I strongly believe their website must have been flooded with complaints of damaged people - also something they couldn't hide or deal with.


 go **** yourself

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## mnx

Hey all. Figured I'd give an update. Managed to take my mind off my hair for a few days and it felt good.

I scheduled a consultation with a specialist on friday. I've pretty much talked myself into going for propecia(along with the others) if that is what the doctor recommends.

Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. I'll continue to give updates through the process.

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## mnx

Just got back from specialist. He looked at my hair for about 5 seconds, took a couple pictures, and sold me some Propecia.

Not really the attentiveness and information I was hoping for, but whatever.

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## chrisis

> Not really the attentiveness and information I was hoping for, but whatever.


 Sadly even the medical industry don't take hair loss very seriously. That's why this forum exists, I guess.

Good luck  :Smile:

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## mnx

> Sadly even the medical industry don't take hair loss very seriously. That's why this forum exists, I guess.
> 
> Good luck


 Thanks.

I feel ok, at the end of the day, I got a proven medicine and I'm catching this thing pretty early on. So my outlook is good, just going to hope those dreaded side effects don't hit me.

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## keepingmyhair

> Just got back from specialist. He looked at my hair for about 5 seconds, took a couple pictures, and sold me some Propecia.
> 
> Not really the attentiveness and information I was hoping for, but whatever.


 See, I think that's crap.  I don't understand physicians anymore.  These days I think about becoming one just so there's at least one person that seems to care more.  Was there any discussion?  Did they care or notice your anxiety levels about your hair?

 No mention of any tests whatsoever, or even inform you those options exist if you feel that you'd like as much information as possible?  I don't know about the rest of you but I'm so detail oriented when it comes to my body I want every blood, urine, hair, and technology test available that I can afford.  The fact that they aren't even discussing miniaturization tests with either you or me during our specialist visits is pissing me off.   I shouldn't have to learn what that test is through a forum, the hair specialist should let you know that exists for the sake of your full knowledge and the best possible diagnoses.   There's literally millions of symptoms that correlate to just about every medical illness imaginable, and hair loss is a symptom of probably 500,000 of them.   So yeah,  maybe a few tests should be in order other than just a quick glance for '5 seconds' before diagnosing someone with a permanent health issue (be it physical or mental or in hair loss...both). 

In any case, if you've decided to go forth with propecia mnx, i'm looking forward to seeing how it goes and wish you NO side effects because god knows I'm so sick of side effects from my meds.

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## mnx

Tell me about it, felt very disappointed with the appointment.

Thanks for the good wishes, I'll keep some updates going. All things said, I feel like I'm doing my best to address this problem and I am optimistic that things will improve.

It's a matter of perspective. Now when I look at my hair, I see it as something that will be improving not getting worse, and since it is early on, it helps ease the mind a lot.

If you go ahead with your second opinion with an expert as I think you should, hopefully he shows a little more concern and attentiveness to your situation. Also, whichever path you end up taking, I hope it works well for you also.

Feel free to message me anytime you want to talk about it. Otherwise I may be on here a little less as I am trying really hard to be positive, and I cannot do that thinking about my hair all the time.

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## 25 going on 65

keepingmyhair and mnx, can I ask you guys what doctors you saw?

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## mnx

I saw Dr Panagotacos in San Francisco.

I will say that I went for a free consultation, so perhaps I cannot complain about having limited attention. Honestly, I'm happy I walked out with some Propecia.

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## keepingmyhair

> keepingmyhair and mnx, can I ask you guys what doctors you saw?


 25 going on 65,  I first saw a Dermatology Nurse Practitioner who knew nothing about anything,  then I saw a Dr. Marina Pizarro which was a free consultation just like Mnx.  She said Rogaine twice a day the rest of my life... 

She spent about 8-10 seconds looking at my hair also.  She was nice, but I don't know.  I'm upset over it again today.  She was also the doctor that said my scalp didn't look inflamed at all, yet when I saw my mother yesterday she freaked out going through my hair for 5 minutes because of how red and inflamed it looked.  It's all so ridiculous, some days I wake up and it looks like my hair is back to normal again.. then after fiddling for a moment i'm like "oh.. wait, there it is."   When i told my father that the hair specialist Dr. said I was thinning like a norwood 3 vertex he started cussing at me, said they're full of shit, and I'm not to listen to them. 

So you can see, stressful.  Someone just give me a flipping test that gives me a 100% answer and then friggen fix me.

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## 25 going on 65

I'm not familiar with Pizarro, but Pantagatacos is IAHRS-recommended. Sounds like they both should have spent more time with you guys from the sound of things. I understand we can only expect so much from a free consultation, but what's the point if he's only going to glance and prescribe finasteride? Your regular GP could do that much.

Anyway, best of luck to you guys. I can definitely understand being annoyed by your experiences.

mnx... if Propecia gets too pricey, try getting an rx for 5 mg finasteride tablets and cutting them into fourths.

keepingmyhair, as you've probably figured out by now, Rogaine alone doesn't top male-pattern hair loss. If stopping it is your goal, you'll need finasteride or dutasteride unfortunately.
The scalp inflammation sounds pretty intense. Ketoconazole shampoo might address it, but it seems like one of the doctors you saw should have tried to give you something for it.

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## keepingmyhair

sorry mnx, meant to post my update in my own thread not hijack yours!

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## mnx

I lasted all of about 4 days on propecia before I felt cause to skip a day. Not sure if I'm even going to pick it up again tomorrow.

I'm not sure if this was early side effects or just a coincidence, but I have been crushed by depression, anxiety, and loss of appetite over the last 2-3 days. I was so ****ing out of it that I was pulling my hair out this morning.

I skipped my dose for the day and am feeling fairly human again.

I know people are going to say this is all in my head, or that it will go away if I persist. You are probably right, but holy shit I could endure baldness better than the way I've felt the last two days.

I may start on a smaller dose after all as chrisis and others recommended.

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## itssomuchfun

> Did it happen aggressively for you? How is it now?


 Yeah it's been pretty aggressive over the last 8 months. I had a thick head of hair beforehand, just thinning at the crown. It's still coming out pretty badly.  Don't know how much longer before I'm gonna need to buzz it.  My doctor isn't sure now if I have aggressive mpb or telogen effluvium. I'm having allergy tests done this week to see if it might be the chemicals in Rogaine that is causing the redness/irritation on my scalp, which he thinks might be a reason I'm having hair loss all over. I also have drops to put on my head. I'm none too pleased since he got my hopes up a few weeks back when he said it was probably just the diet/weight loss that was causing the excessive hair loss. Now he says if the allergy tests don't show anything then I should go on Propecia. Despite the successes of so many others I don't want to go on the drug.

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## Kirby_

I didn't want to go on Propecia either, but to be honest, it was the biggest anti-climax of my life when I actually did get round to taking it.

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## clandestine

> I didn't want to go on Propecia either, but to be honest, it was the biggest anti-climax of my life when I actually did get round to taking it.


 Kirby; how long have you been on propecia?

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## keepingmyhair

> I lasted all of about 4 days on propecia before I felt cause to skip a day. Not sure if I'm even going to pick it up again tomorrow.
> 
> I'm not sure if this was early side effects or just a coincidence, but I have been crushed by depression, anxiety, and loss of appetite over the last 2-3 days. I was so ****ing out of it that I was pulling my hair out this morning.
> 
> I skipped my dose for the day and am feeling fairly human again.
> 
> I know people are going to say this is all in my head, or that it will go away if I persist. You are probably right, but holy shit I could endure baldness better than the way I've felt the last two days.
> 
> I may start on a smaller dose after all as chrisis and others recommended.


 you don't take any other medications mnx? If not, that would indeed freak me out as well.  anything that has the potential to increase anxiety in a patient is something I run hard and fast from.   The unfortunate part is that because we are already anxious about taking the drugs, we often will end up creating symptoms regardless of whether they're real side effects or not.  People like us it's lose lose.  Maybe smaller dose or just push on through a week and see if it ends up not being the problem.

We are both suddenly realizing our great thick hair is apparently shedding and thinning on the crown and we might bald.. We have a legitimate reason to be both depressed and quite anxious! I wish I was married, I'd care so much less.  Having my identity tied to my physical appearance is so very unfortunate.

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## clandestine

> Having my identity tied to my physical appearance is so very unfortunate.


 Then don't.

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## keepingmyhair

> Then don't.


 if only personality traits built up over a lifetime were so easy to just change.  Self-esteem has so many elements. Mine's pretty low at the moment. Looking good helped.

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## therealhan

So - any word, MNX, of your continued or discontinued Propecia use? Sounds like the cons outweigh the pros - sorry to hear that..

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