# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  S-equol again

## Cob984

From a forum member inquiring about this product:
http://www.proequol.com/

I was wondering what would be the benefits of reducing DHT by this remedy or by Finasteride. What are the differences?
I think it would only benefit is the reduction of DHT is that by other methods, to be free of side effects, no?
If a simple reduction as Finasteride does not see many advantages. 

The answer: "Hello Julio,

I wanted to provide you with some follow-up information. I was notified by my associate that you may be posting on Hair Loss Talk forums about Proequol. We monitor these forums because they generally help drive a lot of traffic to our website. We cannot post on any of the hair loss websites because of the forum rules about promoting products.

To clear up some of the discussion about Proequol and equol supplements:

Any equol supplement, such as Pharmavite, would be unlikely to be potent enough to have a sufficient levels of equol, in vivo, to fully mitigate DHT. Through our years of studies, we have determined that 100 ng/ml of unbound equol in blood plasma is the minimum level needed to mitigate DHT. By our estimates (based on urine levels of equol), Pharmavite may only provide 1/12th of those blood levels because not all of the equol contained in the capsule/tablet will be fully absorbed into the bloodstream. Additionally, their product is marketed towards menopausal woman, and the blood levels required there are likely not as high as they are for mitigating DHT.

The moral here is that metabolizing equol in the intestines is the most effective way to produce and more importantly, absorb equol into the body. In that respect, any supplement containing synthesized equol cannot compete with Proequol's equol output.

Finally, some of the results of our studies cannot be made public because Proequol is being marketed as a nutritional supplement. Only pharmaceuticals can make direct effectiveness claims. However, Proequol is not a pharmaceutical and we must market the product within legal limits.

Thank you,
Black Bear Naturals, LLC"


Thoughts? anyone in the US willing to give this a go? Its  DHT binder not 5ar inhibitor in theory, Cannot be shipped overseas at present

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## 2020

It will most likely work but the price of $30/month is way too low...equol is actually expensive to produce and somehow they're selling that much for that cheap. Something is fishy.

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## LMS

So assuming this works, whats the difference between this and fin or dut?
Doesn't it essentially do the same thing or...?

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## 2020

> So assuming this works, whats the difference between this and fin or dut?
> Doesn't it essentially do the same thing or...?


 fin/dut inhibits 5AR which is responsible for other functions besides DHT... equol only inhibits DHT.

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## The Natural

> It will most likely work but the price of $30/month is way too low...equol is actually expensive to produce and somehow they're selling that much for that cheap. Something is fishy.


 Synthesized equol may very well be expensive to produce.  Proequol facilitates the production of equol in the intestines, where it can be better absorbed.

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## HARIRI

I think Equol works similar to Keratene Alphactive Retrard. Its a DHT depressor and not a suppressor like Finasteride. However I didnt see enough study of it regarding hair loss like the ones I have seen for Keratene Alphactive Retard but I think it worths a bit of research.

Thanks COB984 for bringing this into attention. We really need to find alternative to Finasteride to reduce DHT in order to catch up future treatments in 2015. 

This is their study regarding their product (Patent Application):-

https://docs.google.com/a/google.com...0120251511.pdf

Check out this photo from their website (very interesting):-

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## 2020

> Proequol facilitates the production of equol in the intestines, where it can be better absorbed.


 uhm are you talking about taking PREBIOTICS in order to make your body naturally produce equol? Because that wouldn't work for many people

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## The Natural

What were people's experience(s) here with the product Densiti?  Seems Proequol is an updated version, made by the same company.

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## Cob984

Wasnt Equol supposed to not reduce DHT at all, but just bind to it and prevent it from doing its thing?
Atleast that was the hype when Folexen was around

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## HARIRI

*The 3 DHT Fighting Weapons*

Finasteride 

Finasteride, a 4-azasteroid and analogue of testosterone, works by acting as a potent and specific, competitive inhibitor of one of the two subtypes of 5α-reductase, specifically the type II isoenzyme. In other words, it binds to the enzyme and prevents endogenous substrates such as testosterone from being metabolized. 5α-reductase type I and type II are responsible for approximately one-third and two-thirds of systemic DHT production, respectively. It has the chemical potential to penetrate the blood brain barrier and has the bio-chemical potential to influence the pineal gland, the processes that coordinate the production of lutropin, the correlation of the sex-binding hormone globulin, dhea, and many other related factors. In addition, it may increase on the long run the risk on malign prostate neoplasm with roughly 1.6&#37;. Because the body perceives its molecule as a foreign chemical, the metabolic processes employed by the body to follows the same pathways as any other medication. Its considered as a DHT suppressor.

Keratene Alphactive Retard

It only depresses the total level of DHT by suppressing the conversion of the androgen Testosterone to DHT through the adhesion to the 5aRD enzyme by obstructing the transfer of hydrogen atoms to the Testosterone molecule and preventing its chemical reduction. The body process the substance as an organic element. Main ingredients are "Sterol complex, phytoextracts and saccharose".

S-Equol 

It binds strongly to the DHT molecules. When DHT has S-equol attached to it, it is no longer a form of 'free DHT', i.e. it cannot cause MPB because the molecule is no longer able to bind to receptor sites. When there are sufficient levels of S-equol in serum, the DHT can be captured before it can cause damage, even the DHT that is inside hair follicles since S-equol is a small molecule and can enter the follicular cells.


These are the differences between these three treatments.

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## Cob984

wait in the finasteride bit it states ' In other words, it binds to the enzyme and prevents endogenous substrates such as testosterone from being metabolized.'

Isnt this the exact same thing as keratene? i thought keratene was different because it adheres to 5ar and fin reduces 5ar, from your description it also seems like fin adheres to 5ar,
so wheres the difference?

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## HARIRI

I don't want to hijack the thread as its about S-Equol

But I will paste the answer that the Keratene company given me about the difference:-

*Are there differences between KaR (Keratene Alphactive Retard) and Finasteride?*

Yes. K&#233;ratene alphactive Retarde is completely different than finasteride.
Finasteride is a synthetically engineered molecule, with specific chemical properties.
K&#233;ratene alphactive Retarde is an organic compound, not synthetically engineered.
Finasteride has the chemical potential to penetrate the blood brain barrier (see latest FDA updates on fda.gov) and has the bio-chemical potential to influence the pineal gland, the processes that coordinate the production of lutropin, the correlation of the sex-binding hormone globulin, dhea, and many other related factors.
In addition, it may increase on the long run the risk on malign prostate neoplasm with roughly 1.6&#37;.
Because the body perceives its molecule as a foreign chemical, the metabolic processes employed by the body to follows the same pathways as any other medication (see cytokine reduction), whereas in regard to KaR, the body process the substance as an organic element.

*It does not interfere with the endocrine production of hormones, of hormone precursors, of enzymes or related peptides. It also does not influence the shbg or lutropin, fact that defines its “libido-friendly” characteristic.
In other words... enjoy the goods without the damage.
Up to date, no user reported any sort of erectile dysfunction or libido problems.*

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## HARIRI

I personally find that S-Equol is the safest but most of its users didn't report noticeable good results. Its been sold as Folexen from Australia and I was following it closely. That is why I decided to go with Keratene Alphactive Rertard as a replacement for Fin, however if anyone out there had positive outcomes and results with using S-Equol regardless which brand then please let me know.

So far Keratene Alphactive Retard and S-Equol are the only DHT depressors available in the market beside FIN.

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## bananana

> I personally find that S-Equol is the safest but most of its users didn't report noticeable good results. Its been sold as Folexen from Australia and I was following it closely. That is why I decided to go with Keratene Alphactive Rertard as a replacement for Fin, however if anyone out there had positive outcomes and results with using S-Equol regardless which brand then please let me know.
> 
> So far Keratene Alphactive Retard and S-Equol are the only DHT depressors available in the market beside FIN.


 Folexen from Australia is probably a scam, I used it for 3 months, didn't notice anything whatsoever, I still have a bunch of unopened bottles (if anyone by chance wants to buy  :Big Grin: ). The company went bust very soon.

Therefore we should judge s-equol from a TRUSTED or proven source.

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## PinotQ

Sometime last year, someone posted on TBT that a representative from Pharmavite told them that release of their S-Equol product was scheduled for the second quarter of 2013.  I have emailed various contacts at Pharmavite and Nature Made but they have not responded to confirm their release date.   I have done quite a bit of research on S-Equol as I believe it has a high probability of shutting down the degradation caused by DHT.  The dose being used by Pharmavite in their consumer trials is 10 MG per day split 5 mg in the am and 5 mg in the pm.  Based on research data from some of the clinical trials, I believe it would take 40 to 50 mg to shut down DHT.  I can probably find the report if anyone is interested.  Based on the half life of S-Equol in the body (you can read the details on Pharmavites website), it would appear that the optimum dosage might occur by taking the product 3 times per day rather than 2.  I would also note that safety concerns with S-Equol should be minimal as it occurs naturally in about 30&#37; of the overall population.  In the course of consumer and clinical trials, they also uncovered reason to believe that S-Equol helps reduce Metabolic Syndrome (associated with heart disease and diabetes) and it helps reduce "crows feet", possibly related to the reduction of androgenic activity in the skin.

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## Conpecia

> Sometime last year, someone posted on TBT that a representative from Pharmavite told them that release of their S-Equol product was scheduled for the second quarter of 2013.  I have emailed various contacts at Pharmavite and Nature Made but they have not responded to confirm their release date.   I have done quite a bit of research on S-Equol as I believe it has a high probability of shutting down the degradation caused by DHT.  The dose being used by Pharmavite in their consumer trials is 10 MG per day split 5 mg in the am and 5 mg in the pm.  Based on research data from some of the clinical trials, I believe it would take 40 to 50 mg to shut down DHT.  I can probably find the report if anyone is interested.  Based on the half life of S-Equol in the body (you can read the details on Pharmavites website), it would appear that the optimum dosage might occur by taking the product 3 times per day rather than 2.  I would also note that safety concerns with S-Equol should be minimal as it occurs naturally in about 30% of the overall population.  In the course of consumer and clinical trials, they also uncovered reason to believe that S-Equol helps reduce Metabolic Syndrome (associated with heart disease and diabetes) and it helps reduce "crows feet", possibly related to the reduction of androgenic activity in the skin.


 Interesting. Please keep us updated on this. Also, have you researched Keratene? What are your thoughts on it?

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## The Natural

Differences between equol products (from a post at *** forum):

"...To clear up some of the discussion about Proequol and equol supplements:

Any equol supplement, such as Pharmavite, would be unlikely to be potent enough to have a sufficient levels of equol, in vivo, to fully mitigate DHT. Through our years of studies, we have determined that 100 ng/ml of unbound equol in blood plasma is the minimum level needed to mitigate DHT. By our estimates (based on urine levels of equol), Pharmavite may only provide 1/12th of those blood levels because not all of the equol contained in the capsule/tablet will be fully absorbed into the bloodstream. Additionally, their product is marketed towards menopausal woman, and the blood levels required there are likely not as high as they are for mitigating DHT.

The moral here is that metabolizing equol in the intestines is the most effective way to produce and more importantly, absorb equol into the body. In that respect, any supplement containing synthesized equol cannot compete with Proequol's equol output.

Finally, some of the results of our studies cannot be made public because Proequol is being marketed as a nutritional supplement. Only pharmaceuticals can make direct effectiveness claims. However, Proequol is not a pharmaceutical and we must market the product within legal limits.

Thank you,
Black Bear Naturals, LLC"

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## custards

It's in the first post too  :Smile: 

It sounds good but they need to show at least the results they're allowed to publish.  Keratene has done well by giving people solid numbers, even if we don't know the end-result on hair maintenance.

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## The Natural

> It's in the first post too 
> 
> It sounds good but they need to show at least the results they're allowed to publish.  Keratene has done well by giving people solid numbers, even if we don't know the end-result on hair maintenance.


 I agree with you.

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## PinotQ

Conpecia,  I haven't been able to find the study suggesting 40 to 50 mg of s-equol would bind 100&#37; of dht although I will continue to look as I will rely on this information once s-equol is released.  However, I did find this study:

http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=3032666_1477-7827-9-4-2&query=the&fields=all&favor=none&it=none&sub=none  &uniq=0&sp=none&req=4&simCollection=1952536_200414  19f2&npos=21&prt=3

which shows in the chart that binding is 100% at a concentration of 100 nmol/L.  If you then go to Pharmavite's website page regarding pharmacology:

http://www.naturalequol.com/pharmacokinetics.aspx

you will see that 30mg of s-equol reaches a concentration of 1,200 nmol/L 1 hour after dosing.  In other words, 30 mg, 1 hour after dosing is at 12 times the concentration needed for 100% binding to DHT.  Pharmavite's pharmacology page states that the half-life for s-equol is 8 hours.  Although I'm not sure exactly how this works, but just using simple math, the concentration of 30 mg s-equol 8 hours after dosing should be at 6 times that needed for 100% binding.  So if I am interpreting this data correctly, there should be plenty of margin for error in suggesting that 20 to 25 mg twice a day or  15 mg 3 times a day should reach 100% binding of DHT.

Can you suggest a few of the best places to read up on Keratene?  I had not heard of it before reading this thread.

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## Conpecia

> Conpecia,  I haven't been able to find the study suggesting 40 to 50 mg of s-equol would bind 100% of dht although I will continue to look as I will rely on this information once s-equol is released.  However, I did find this study:
> 
> http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=3032666_1477-7827-9-4-2&query=the&fields=all&favor=none&it=none&sub=none  &uniq=0&sp=none&req=4&simCollection=1952536_200414  19f2&npos=21&prt=3
> 
> which shows in the chart that binding is 100% at a concentration of 100 nmol/L.  If you then go to Pharmavite's website page regarding pharmacology:
> 
> http://www.naturalequol.com/pharmacokinetics.aspx
> 
> you will see that 30mg of s-equol reaches a concentration of 1,200 nmol/L 1 hour after dosing.  In other words, 30 mg, 1 hour after dosing is at 12 times the concentration needed for 100% binding to DHT.  Pharmavite's pharmacology page states that the half-life for s-equol is 8 hours.  Although I'm not sure exactly how this works, but just using simple math, the concentration of 30 mg s-equol 8 hours after dosing should be at 6 times that needed for 100% binding.  So if I am interpreting this data correctly, there should be plenty of margin for error in suggesting that 20 to 25 mg twice a day or  15 mg 3 times a day should reach 100% binding of DHT.
> ...


 Not much on it beyond the official website and a few threads on various forums. Here's the main site:

http://www.keratene.com/keratene-ret...-capsules.html

Honestly the BTT thread is a good source, but here's another:

http://www.hairlossfight.com/forums/...pic.php?t=2831

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## Ibrium

I was taking bacillus coagulans and soy isoflavones a couple of months ago, and recently started up again, in the hopes of producing equol... But I have no idea how to tell if it's actually working for that purpose. I take fin as well, but I wouldn't mind being able to lower the dosage and have equol fill in the gap, if that's even possible.

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## The Natural

> I was taking bacillus coagulans and soy isoflavones a couple of months ago, and recently started up again, in the hopes of producing equol... But I have no idea how to tell if it's actually working for that purpose. I take fin as well, but I wouldn't mind being able to lower the dosage and have equol fill in the gap, if that's even possible.


 Interestingly, those at Proequol state that soy isoflavones supplements do not facilitate the production of equol.  They recommend soymilk.

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## PinotQ

Conpecia,  I see where it says that Keratene contains sterols and plant extracts but I don't see a lot of specifics.  Does anyone know what is in it exactly? It is a slick site but my immediate thought on very minimal research would be that it is some combination of things like betasitisterol, saw palmetto, etc., things that have been tried and which may have some benefit but which are not ground breaking.  This is just a guess of course.   I have tried just about everything over the years and tend not to gravitate to things like this, TRX2, etc.  On the other hand, if you google s-equol, you will see many many in depth studies on its pharmacolgy....there is no shroud of secrecy.  So in terms of neutralizing DHT, I believe the next big advance will be s-equol and I believe it will be released by Nature Made this year and I believe it will be released by the time you would know if Keratene has any effect if you were just starting on it today.  Contrary to what Proequol has said, I believe that Nature Made's s-equol can neutralize 100&#37; of dht at somewhere in the 40 to 50 mg dosage per day range.  It may be expensive at first but I am sure the price will drop as it catches on in the hairloss community.  If you read the studies, you will see that many natural s-equol producers, produce s-equol in amounts well past what would be required for 100% neutralization and that supplements have been tested at up to 320 mg per day. So to me, safety is not an issue.  However, it remains to be seen whether the proper dosage will halt further loss or merely slow it down like finesteride.

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## Cob984

Bumping this, did anyone get around to trying this product in the US?

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## PinotQ

Cob984,  I believe I read somewhere that if Proequol does help generate s-equol, it would be the equivalent of 10 mg per day.  Research from many different sources indicates that s-equol unquestionably binds very strongly to dht.  S-equol does not prevent the conversion of dht from testosterone but attaches to dht once formed.....that, plus the fact that it naturally occurs in some humans, being the major distinction with other dht agonists. Based on my research (For example, see faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071 but add the link pre-fix), it would take at least "0.2 mg equol per kg weight of the recipient and preferably at least about 0.5 mg/kg" to be effective.  In a 195 lb man, this would equate to a dosage of 18 mg per day at minimum or 45 mg at the .5 end.  This patent app indicates that s-equol would be safe up to 10 mg per kg of body weight (or 884 total mg per day).  I would estimate that for an effective mpb treatment, a 195 lb man would need to take at least 45 mg per day. FYI, the patent application was submitted by Lund, Setchell, etc who are university researchers and have been studying this for decades.  Nature Made recently responded to my inquiry that their product will launch sometime within the next 12 months.  I had previously heard it would launch in Q2 2013 so best case sometime in the next 3 months.

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## Artista

Thanks for posting  PinotQ, 
Always good to see you here with your educated information.

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## HARIRI

> Research from many different sources indicates that s-equol unquestionably binds very strongly to dht.  S-equol does not prevent the conversion of dht from testosterone but attaches to dht once formed..


 So this means that its mechanism is completely similar to Keratene Alphactive Retard as it does not prevent the conversion of DHT from testosterone but attaches to DHT once formed. Do you agree?

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## PinotQ

Thanks Artista..............Hariri,  I don't know much about Keratene Alphactive Retard, but YES, s-equol attaches to DHT so that DHT cannot attach to the androgen receptors.  In the link above to the patent application, it says that "Based on our in vivo studies it is apparent that relatively low doses of equol antagonize much higher doses of 5α-DHT".  So it appears based on many studies, that s-equol is very powerful.  I have no way to compare that to the strength of Keratene Alphactive Retard however I don't believe it is in the same ballpark.  2 points of interest are 1) that if you google mpb in the Asian population you will find assessments that the incidence of MPB in Asians (50 to 60&#37; of which produce s-equol naturally from soy) is much less than for western cultures; and 2) it apparently is very effective at getting to the skin as the studies are showing that it repairs and helps produce collagen......they are noticing the reduction/disappearance of crows feet in many study participants. This also is covered in the patent.

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## Cob984

> So this means that its mechanism is completely similar to Keratene Alphactive Retard as it does not prevent the conversion of DHT from testosterone but attaches to DHT once formed. Do you agree?


 keratene prevents dht formation bro,
it claims to not lower total 5ar levels

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## burtandernie

I would not rely on personal stories or testimony from random forum guy as to whether a treatment works or not.
I am basically on nothing right now and might just wait for CB 03 01 and hopefully bypass propecia even if I lose some hair. I would rather stay safe then trade my health for my hair.
Its pretty obvious nothing besides propecia or dut does much of anything and Im not going to mix random chemicals like RU in my basement everyday in hopes that works. Options currently just arent any good

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## PatientlyWaiting

I thought Nature Made was working on an S-Equol product?

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## PatientlyWaiting

> I would not rely on personal stories or testimony from random forum guy as to whether a treatment works or not.
> I am basically on nothing right now and might just wait for CB 03 01 and hopefully bypass propecia even if I lose some hair. I would rather stay safe then trade my health for my hair.
> Its pretty obvious nothing besides propecia or dut does much of anything and Im not going to mix random chemicals like RU in my basement everyday in hopes that works. Options currently just arent any good


 According to Cosmos Pharmaceuticals phase II will be completed in 2014. Are you sure you're going to wait that long for it? I mean at that pace Histogen may be available sooner in Asia. I'm speaking as if CB goes to Phase III of course.

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...peline/cb.aspx

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## Californication

Pinot Q, you seem very well read about S-equol. Everything you have said makes sense, but I was wondering how you know that it will bind to DHT as opposed to ERβ or ERα (at a lower affinity).

I am referencing the bottom of this page, biological activity section: http://www.naturalequol.com/about.html

Edit: nevermind, the study makes it clear that s-equol has a high enough affinity for DHT at a particular level.

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## PinotQ

Californication, There are many many studies on this but here is a great summary:   http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0330090046.htm

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## Californication

Interesting. That was 9 years ago, do you know if the same team has been doing work related to Equol the entire time? 

My understanding is that we just need the tablet to be released for some affliction or other (menopause perhaps?) and once that is done, we can buy it and figure out an appropriate dose based on the per kg rule you stated.

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## PinotQ

I believe they have continued to devote most of their time to the study of s-equol. If you look at the Natural S-Equol website, you will see Setchell's name listed in some of the other research studies, the latest looks to be 2010 but there are other studies you can probably find by just googling.  I also believe that this team has some interest in a company called AusioPharmaceuticals which has been doing clinical studies.  S-equol is apparently a GRAS (generally recognized as safe) product so it does not need FDA approval to be released.  Nature Made can release it when they are ready and it can be used for any purpose.....no prescription needed.  Not sure about what claims they can make but they have spent a lot of time and money on sampling trials and I believe they will widely publicize the results of these trials along with testimonials to jump sales.  My guess is this will be on the market in 3 to 6 months..........but no later than 10 months at the outside.  All this being said, no one knows what kind of dose you would need to affect MPB or whether s-equol would just slow down the process or completely stop it (with hopefully a little bump in growth or diameter).  But it will almost certainly be the next legitimate possibility to hit the market.  With every other product in the pipeline out to a minimum of 2016 at best (and assuming something actually works), s-equol at least offers a reasonable possibility to maintain.

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## vred

Any updates?

It's exciting to see the next potential treatment becoming available very very soon.  Especially after the recent data from other companies.

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## vred

Info from this patent (aside from the fact that they claim S Equol is an anti aging miracle among other benefits) seems to show that it can easily be applied topically.  So in theory would we be able to inhibit DHT directly with a S Equol topical?  Seems too good to be true..  But according to most data, it should work!   :Smile: 

http://www.google.com/patents/US20090018185

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## brooks1089

Here's a reply to an email I sent yesterday inquiring about the release date..

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## clandestine

> Here's a reply to an email I sent yesterday inquiring about the release date..


 That's interesting, for sure. Thanks for posting.

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## brooks1089

So in other words, she's saying it would hit major retailers outside of California in 2014, but still be attainable to all later this year most likely by online merchandising?

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## FearTheLoss

Are there any studies at all that show this product does anything for MPB? I haven't found any? I feel like they would have studied it for this if it were anything worth time...

maybe I'm just missing something..

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## HARIRI

Interesting, would you think that this product will work better than Keratene Alphactive Retard? and why? Share your thoughts please.

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## PinotQ

FearTheLoss,  There are no studies to date that are specifically for MPB.  But there are many many studies conclusively confirming that s-equol binds to and therefore inactivates DHT without causing systemic hormonal side effects.  The major open question appears to be whether there is a practical dosage that would totally shut down DHT.  There is a patent application suggesting that 50 mg per day for a 195 lb person might do the trick.  Given that about 60&#37; of Asians naturally produce s-equol in their intestines from the breakdown of soy, and further given that Asians have (according to some of the literature I have read) about a 50% less occurrence of MPB, there is some cause for optimism.  Just the same, at this point, its in large part speculation.

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## vred

PinotQ

In theory, it seems S Equol would be superior to Fin and Ker as it directly goes after DHT, not indirectly by messing with enzymes which then effects DHT.  Due to it's direct effects, and the fact that it appears to be readly absorbed as a topical, it seems the most effective treatment would be a S Equol application directly to the scalp DHT!!  AWESOME

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## vred

Less than 6 months to go for the next commercial product that may actually work  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

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## HARIRI

If it really works, then I may use it together with Keratene alternatively. One day S-Equol and the other Keratene until I find solid concrete proof that it really works. Wishing all the best for cures that can replace the stupid FIN.

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## vred

Yup, me too Hairi.

The reason i've been so excited about S Equol is it is THE next available potential treatment.  I also thought I remember seeing somewhere about it's anti-inflammatory characteristics.  Blocking DHT + Anti Inflam =  :Smile: 

We will see.

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## Gjm127

I don't get it, what phase are they in as of today?
We haven't heard anything concerning efficacy, safety, or wtv (like we do with Histogen, Aderans, etc...)

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## ryan555

> I don't get it, what phase are they in as of today?
> We haven't heard anything concerning efficacy, safety, or wtv (like we do with Histogen, Aderans, etc...)


 I believe equol would be sold as a supplement and not as a pharmaceutical product, so it would not require FDA clearance.  Some companies have already been selling the stuff in the past, but they were all small outfits and who knows if it was legit or not.

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## Gjm127

> I believe equol would be sold as a supplement and not as a pharmaceutical product, so it would not require FDA clearance.  Some companies have already been selling the stuff in the past, but they were all small outfits and who knows if it was legit or not.


 suddenly I'm less excited..  :Frown:

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## FearTheLoss

Guys, I really feel like you are getting too hyped up over this supplement. I think if it were to be anything of meaning, it would have been tested for hair loss and there would be doctors, and Spence, talking about it.

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## vred

> Guys, I really feel like you are getting too hyped up over this supplement. I think if it were to be anything of meaning, it would have been tested for hair loss 
> 
> and there would be doctors, and Spence, talking about it.


 Valid point, BUT..

As far as I know, Nature Made is the first legit manufacturer of S Equol.  As mentioned earlier, there were a couple shady outfits, but nothing professional.  And that's not even including those supplements that tried to get your body to produce S Equol.  Apparently the reason it has not been commercialized until now is that it is very expensive to manufacture.  

This is the first time a pure S Equol supplement will be available from a reputable source.  So as you say about testing for hair loss.. Here's our chance!!

There is solid science behind it's DHT neutralizing effects.  And i'm talking directly, not through enzymatic suppression.  Combine this with the fact that it is an anti inflammatory and can be applied topically and we potentially have the latest and greatest weapon.

IMO while it's nice to dream about treatments that may come out in the next 5 years, there's not much I can do about them except wait.  What I can do is research and test what we have available NOW, who knows right?  And S Equol very soon will be NOW.  I believe the forums are perfect for things like this.

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## FearTheLoss

> Valid point, BUT..
> 
> As far as I know, Nature Made is the first legit manufacturer of S Equol.  As mentioned earlier, there were a couple shady outfits, but nothing professional.  And that's not even including those supplements that tried to get your body to produce S Equol.  Apparently the reason it has not been commercialized until now is that it is very expensive to manufacture.  
> 
> This is the first time a pure S Equol supplement will be available from a reputable source.  So as you say about testing for hair loss.. Here's our chance!!
> 
> There is solid science behind it's DHT neutralizing effects.  And i'm talking directly, not through enzymatic suppression.  Combine this with the fact that it is an anti inflammatory and can be applied topically and we potentially have the latest and greatest weapon.
> 
> IMO while it's nice to dream about treatments that may come out in the next 5 years, there's not much I can do about them except wait.  What I can do is research and test what we have available NOW, who knows right?  And S Equol very soon will be NOW.  I believe the forums are perfect for things like this.


 It would be interesting to get a transplant doctor or dermatologist's perspective on this..

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Valid point, BUT..
> 
> As far as I know, Nature Made is the first legit manufacturer of S Equol.  As mentioned earlier, there were a couple shady outfits, but nothing professional.  And that's not even including those supplements that tried to get your body to produce S Equol.  Apparently the reason it has not been commercialized until now is that it is very expensive to manufacture.  
> 
> This is the first time a pure S Equol supplement will be available from a reputable source.  So as you say about testing for hair loss.. Here's our chance!!
> 
> There is solid science behind it's DHT neutralizing effects.  And i'm talking directly, not through enzymatic suppression.  Combine this with the fact that it is an anti inflammatory and can be applied topically and we potentially have the latest and greatest weapon.
> 
> IMO while it's nice to dream about treatments that may come out in the next 5 years, there's not much I can do about them except wait.  What I can do is research and test what we have available NOW, who knows right?  And S Equol very soon will be NOW.  I believe the forums are perfect for things like this.


 
Here we go again...

S equol has been tried and tested.

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## FearTheLoss

Yeah guys, sorry to bust your bubble, as I would love this to work too..but it doesn't

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## ryan555

> Yeah guys, sorry to bust your bubble, as I would love this to work too..but it doesn't


 Says who?  When has it been tested and failed?

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## FearTheLoss

> Says who?  When has it been tested and failed?


 exactly my point...if it were anything serious it would have been tested...researchers would be interested in this more than topical finasteride and other preventative treatments.

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## vred

> Here we go again...
> 
> S equol has been tried and tested.


 When? Where?

Are you referring to that fly by night company that shut down very quickly?? Yeah, that was probably legit S equol...

Or are you referring to that company that sold probiotics and said to drink a bunch of soy??

Either way, no, I don't believe it has been tested as you say.  The only legit suppliers of S Equol I have found in the past were labs that sold the stuff for hundreds of dollars for barely a few days worth of treatment.  Are you saying that someone here put out of thousands of dollars to test S Equol from them?? 

So no, S Equol, the real thing, has not been tried.  Why is everyone so quick to dismiss a legitimate possible treatment available in a few months yet will debate for days about treatments out in 5 yrs at best??  Very confusing.

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## PinotQ

Vred, I believe your research on this is very accurate.  Not sure about its anti-inflammatory effects but S-equol is a powerful antioxidant.  One property of S-equol that has not gotten much attention with respect to hairloss is that in addition to the fact that it binds to and sequesters DHT, it also binds to the estrogen B receptor.  This is one of the reasons that it reduces wrinkles and promotes collagen in the skin.  Interestingly, the patent application I referred to in an earlier post also claims that the estrogen mimicking action of s-equol helps promote hair growth as there are many estrogen b receptors in the hair follicle.  I am still researching this but there is conflicting research on whether estrogen promotes or retards hair growth.  In mice, estrogen definitely shuts down anagen in a reversible manner. However, in humans the clinical evidence seems to support the fact that it promotes anagen.  I can post some research articles if anyone is interested.

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## vred

> Vred, I believe your research on this is very accurate.  Not sure about its anti-inflammatory effects but S-equol is a powerful antioxidant.  One property of S-equol that has not gotten much attention with respect to hairloss is that in addition to the fact that it binds to and sequesters DHT, it also binds to the estrogen B receptor.  This is one of the reasons that it reduces wrinkles and promotes collagen in the skin.  Interestingly, the patent application I referred to in an earlier post also claims that the estrogen mimicking action of s-equol helps promote hair growth as there are many estrogen b receptors in the hair follicle.  I am still researching this but there is conflicting research on whether estrogen promotes or retards hair growth.  In mice, estrogen definitely shuts down anagen in a reversible manner. However, in humans the clinical evidence seems to support the fact that it promotes anagen.  I can post some research articles if anyone is interested.


 Yes PinotQ please post, I'd love to see them.

I'm not saying S Equol is the cure, but it might be close.

What I am saying is that we should be looking at all options.  This forum is a very powerful medium for the centralizing of information and testing treatments.  S Equol so far has a great safety profile with solid science backing it up.  This is the first time it is available to the public and I hate to see it dismissed as "tried and doesn't work" based on some false companies who claimed to produce it in the past.

As far as the question of "Well if it works, why hasn't "Big Pharma" produced it?".  My guess would be that I don't believe S Equol is patent-able.  You can patent the manufacturing process, but not the natural molecule.  So if there's not literally billions of dollars to be made, pharma is just not interested.

I'm telling you guys, this is really at least worth a shot to seriously look at.  No real downside right?

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## UK_

A controlled double blind study reveals S-Equol to be effective in curing hair loss and turning NW7 > NW1.

Plans to release the product have been made, however researchers and business leaders agree it is appropriate to leave a pointless 5 year gap between now and release date just to piss everyone off:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64ht1r8APo

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## vred

> A controlled double blind study reveals S-Equol to be effective in curing hair loss and turning NW7 > NW1.
> 
> Plans to release the product have been made, however researchers and business leaders agree it is appropriate to leave a pointless 5 year gap between now and release date just to piss everyone off:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64ht1r8APo


 
I'm really trying to understand the basis of your sarcasm.  No, S Equol has not been tried for hair loss.

So why bash the thread?  When it comes out and if it works, would you not use it?  Probably. 

So why discourage the testing of a possible treatment simply based on your incorrect opinions?  I don't get it.

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## vred

.................

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## brooks1089

I second vred. It's understandable that anyone on this forum would be skeptical, but your negativity isn't very inviting. 

I would imagine S equol would only serve to maintain,  if it even works. No one is saying this would bring a nw7 back to nw1. This isn't some miracle cure to regrow hair,  it's a possible alternative to fin.

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## PinotQ

You may be correct vred about only the manufacturing process being patent-able as opposed to s-equol itself, although note that Lund, Setchall, et al has tried to patent s-equol in the application referred to above.  It would seem that since s-equol is a naturally occuring substance that it would be hard to patent.  And brooks1089.............I agree that s-equol is a maintenance possibilty with a possible bump rather than a regrowth vehicle.  What we know for sure is that s-equol neutralizes DHT.  What we don't know is whether we can take enough or apply it in a way that has any effect, let alone halts MPB.  

Here is some of the estrogen research

 Just add www to     plosone.org/article/info&#37;3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0040124

Just add www to     ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15591132

Just add http://  to   faculty.washington.edu/andchien/PDFs/HuBio/estrogen.pdf

If you take the time to read these you will see estrogen definitely induces catagen and retards anagen in mice; that this process seems to occur thru estrogen receptor A and not B; and that it may not have a negative effect in humans.  I don't think this is a negative for s-equol since it only acts on estrogen receptor b, even if estrogen does have a negative effect in humans.  The fact that s-equol doesn't seem to have a negative effect on hair in Asians would seem to back this up.  Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

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## PinotQ

I have done a little more research on the effect of estrogens on hair growth.  It is a very complicated subject, the research of which underscores just how complex the process of hair growth is.  The purpose of my trying to understand how estrogen affects hair growth is because not only does s-equol bind DHT, it attaches to estrogen receptor B. See the s-equol website on the "About S-equol" tab:"When comparing their relative affinities to bind to the human estrogen receptor alpha (ERα) S-equol has only about 1 percent of the affinity possessed by 17-estradiol. S-equol has a stronger affinity for the human estrogen receptor beta (ERβ), yet this affinity is just 20 percent of estradiol's affinity for ERβ" Recapping some of what I said above, as I looked into this, I found that: 1) Estrogen has a reversible inhibitory effect on the anagen phase of hair growth 2) This sounds contrary to everything you might think given that women generally have much better hair than men 3) Although estrogen absolutely has an inhibitory effect on hair growth in mice, there is clinical evidence to the contrary in humans (http: and then add //faculty.washington.edu/andchien/PDFs/HuBio/estrogen.pdf) Exactly how these apparently conflictive findings could be explained is still open 4) The location of estrogen receptors (both A & B) vary from men to women and within areas of the scalp suggestive of the patterns that might be associated with MPB.  5) Even if estrogen does have an inhibitory effect in humans, estrogen receptor b agonists, where s-equol has its effect, apparently silence the negative effects of estrogen receptor A (http: and then add //www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15591132)  "This suggests that, contrary to previous concepts, ER beta does indeed play a significant role in murine hair growth control: whereas the catagen-promoting properties of E2 are mediated via ER alpha, ER beta mainly may function as a silencer of ER alpha action in hair biology." 

If I am interpreting all of this correctly, s-equol would appear to act in 2 specific ways, both of which would benefit hair maintenance/growth.  Again, any commentary those knowledgeable in this area are welcome.

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## clandestine

vred; Ignore UK, his posts are often pessimistic and baseless.

I appreciate your posts, and your interest in Equol as a potential viable treatment for hair loss.

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## burtandernie

I think its safe to say by the popularity of all the alternative treatments that people in general are not crazy about the idea of taking propecia and I honestly dont blame them.
Every guy wants his hair given the choice, but taking a drug is a tough choice given the dangers of it regardless of evidence it has. That is why I havent tried it yet

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## clandestine

For some of us it's not whether or not we want to take Propecia.

I've taken Propecia, and experienced sides. My body cannot tolerate Propecia. For this reason, I need to seek out other avenues to treat this condition.

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## brunobald

Any updates on this? 

Is it possible to test if you naturally make Equol?

Cheers

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## brunobald

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/8/2188.long

Found this document that describes how to test for Equol productions. Basicly you drink 500ml of soy milk for three days then test your urine for Equol. I wonder who has the equipment to do this.

Might be worth drinking 500ml of soy milk a day for a month and see if it reduces my scalp itch.

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## PinotQ

FYI  For those who have been waiting for Nature Made to release their S-Equol product, it is still not available.  However,  a large vitamin manufacturer called Natures Sunshine has released an equol product called Equolibrium.  Each capsule contains 6 mg of equol.

As you may recall, the lead researchers of equol over the past decade filed a patent: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071  which concerning dosage, states: 

"Generally, a dose sufficient to produce a concentration of equol or active fragments thereof in the bloodstream of the recipient of at least about 0.2 mg equol per kg weight of the recipient and preferably at least about 0.5 mg/kg. The dose may be increased dramatically without incurring significant dose-limiting side effects to greater than about 10 mg/kg."  

Dosage depends on bodyweight but for me, I calculate that to keep a relatively steady state of .5mg per kg of bodyweight of equol in my bloodstream, I need to take 8 capsules, 3 times per day given the half life of equol (about 8 hours). See http://www.naturalequol.com/pharmacokinetics.html   "S-equol is rapidly absorbed after oral administration and rapidly excreted in urine, according to a pharmacokinetics evaluation of 12 healthy post-menopausal US women, including equol producers and non-equol producers. The average half-life, the time for plasma concentrations to decrease by 50 percent, was 7 to 8 hours."  This will be an expensive experiment costing somewhere in the neighborhood of $3500 for 1 year but after many many years of success with propecia, which I am still, I am no longer winning the battle.  Keep in mind this mainly a maintenance option.  I will keep you posted.

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## brooks1089

Pinot>>> thanks for the update on s-equol. Although most don't seem to be interested I would really appreciate if you could provide updates for the s-equol treatment either here or by PM. Thanks!

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## PinotQ

> Pinot>>> thanks for the update on s-equol. Although most don't seem to be interested I would really appreciate if you could provide updates for the s-equol treatment either here or by PM. Thanks!


 Definitely.  I agree there does not seem to be much interest, possibly b/c some tried s-equol from sources that I would characterize as less than credible with no results  But I believe this is the first legitimate source.  I will be 7 weeks in on Monday.

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## nliyan25

> Definitely.  I agree there does not seem to be much interest, possibly b/c some tried s-equol from sources that I would characterize as less than credible with no results  But I believe this is the first legitimate source.  I will be 7 weeks in on Monday.


 
Pinot, have you noticed a reduction in hairloss at all? Any thickening?

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## PinotQ

> Pinot, have you noticed a reduction in hairloss at all? Any thickening?


 Nliyan25, I believe it is way to early to draw any conclusions. I have never counted hairs or really noticed an unusual or excessive amount of shedding.  My hair loss has always been very gradual over time.  I have tried many products over the years and many times had thought a product was working when it fact it was not as many factors such as weather, hair cut, length of hair, etc. can give the illusion of improvement in the short term.  So I believe it will take 4 to 6 months, and maybe longer, before I am able to draw any type of conclusion.  Two things I will note are that; 1) my scalp feels very good; and 2) in the last month my hair appeared to have grown at a much faster rate than usual.  My hair was very definitely longer when I got it cut (every 4 weeks) however that could theoretically have been b/c it wasn't cut as short the previous hair cut. If this observation was not an illusion, it would almost certainly be b/c of s-equol's effect on the estrogen B receptors. Not only does s-equol bind to DHT but it also binds to the estrogen B receptor which is thought to promote hair growth.  For those who have read the many studies on s-equol, it is without doubt that equol binds with strong affinity to DHT without negative hormonal side effects so there is certainly a reasonable possibility that it has the potential to shut down hair loss. The big question would seem to be dosage.  Except for the cost of taking the 144 mg per day, I would take s-equol if it wasn't effective for hair loss b/c of the fact that it is a powerful antioxidant, reduces wrinkles and benefits the health of your skin, and it lowers LDL cholesterol.

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## nliyan25

Those results still sound promising to me. Let us know what your condition is in a few months.

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## hair200k

Hey Pinot I've been a lurker on here and *** for around 3 years now. Nothing ever sparked an interest in me enough to post. However I am very much interested in this stuff and have seen you'd been following this treatment for quite a while. Just want to say thank you for all your informative posts, and I will continue to check up on your updates. Good luck brother!

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## JulioGP

> From a forum member inquiring about this product:
> http://www.proequol.com/
> 
> I was wondering what would be the benefits of reducing DHT by this remedy or by Finasteride. What are the differences?
> I think it would only benefit is the reduction of DHT is that by other methods, to be free of side effects, no?
> If a simple reduction as Finasteride does not see many advantages. 
> 
> The answer: "Hello Julio,
> 
> ...


 Probably that user "Julio" was me. 

We made strenuous tests using Kératene here on the forum with several tests of DHT, not only me, but also other users. The Kératene NO showed reduction in DHT, differently from what they publish in their study. In their study, a reduction in DHT even greater than Finasteride can. 

About equol, I believe that just doing the test and based on comparison of "before" and "after" blood tests do check the DHT level. Useless to do as many here do, go on the drug and "believe" that it works. Have to realize this through tests, or probably it may be the placebo effect.

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## kmit028

So are there any theoretical side effects to inhibiting DHT???

We all know DHT causes hairloss for those that are genetically predisposed (all of us here lol), but doesn't it also have other important functions in the body? And if we inhibit it (potentially with Equol) would there be some side effects from reducing it?

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## PinotQ

> So are there any theoretical side effects to inhibiting DHT???
> 
> We all know DHT causes hairloss for those that are genetically predisposed (all of us here lol), but doesn't it also have other important functions in the body? And if we inhibit it (potentially with Equol) would there be some side effects from reducing it?


 I'm not a doctor, endocrinologist  or medical research scientist so I don't pretend to be an authority but my understanding is that DHT is important in the development male sexual characteristics but relatively unimportant after puberty.  There are are numerous studies on s-equol showing that it does not alter other circulating sex hormones in the body......here are 2:  http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hsa043010.php   &    http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4/.  Also note as I have mentioned many times, a significant percentage of the population (see http://www.naturalequol.com/about.html) produces s-equol naturally as a by-product of soy in the intestines.  If you read the research, you will see that natural s-equol producers are found to have up to 10 times or more circulating levels of s-equol than is  speculated to be required to bind 100% of the DHT in your body (see the above post on dosage).  To me, this is a very powerful statement about safety.

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## PinotQ

> Hey Pinot I've been a lurker on here and *** for around 3 years now. Nothing ever sparked an interest in me enough to post. However I am very much interested in this stuff and have seen you'd been following this treatment for quite a while. Just want to say thank you for all your informative posts, and I will continue to check up on your updates. Good luck brother!


 Thanks hair200K!  I have been waiting for this to be released for many years.

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## kmit028

> I'm not a doctor, endocrinologist  or medical research scientist so I don't pretend to be an authority but my understanding is that DHT is important in the development male sexual characteristics but relatively unimportant after puberty....


 I am still trying to understand FIN and 5AR and DHT

I know FIN inhibits 5AR, and this leads to less testosterone getting converted to DHT

So, which chemical is actually responsible for the FIN side effects like libido or ed?

Is it the inhibited 5AR?

or

Less DHT?


p.s.
I tried researching this but have not been able to find a clear answer....

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## PinotQ

> I am still trying to understand FIN and 5AR and DHT
> 
> I know FIN inhibits 5AR, and this leads to less testosterone getting converted to DHT
> 
> So, which chemical is actually responsible for the FIN side effects like libido or ed?
> 
> Is it the inhibited 5AR?
> 
> or
> ...


 I'm not sure and I don't know if that has been conclusively determined by any medical research.  But if I had to guess, I would say that putting a man-made chemical like finasteride in your body (that is intended to disrupt the natural chemical process of converting testosterone to DHT) would have a much higher likelihood of causing unintended chemical reactions or side effects (even if that likelihood is small) than s-equol that is produced naturally by the body.  So my presumption is that having less DHT does not cause the side effects.  There is no indication in anything I have read that the percentage of the male population that naturally produces s-equol has any known side effects.  I personally have experienced no side effects from s-equol although I am probably not a good anecdotal example as I have no known side effects from fin either.

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## cthulhu2

Greetings from ***. NatureMade was supposed to release their S-equol supplement sometime last year, which was indicated in an email I got from them upon requesting this information. They were intending to release it for menopause but they acknowledge that it could be useful for AGA. It is my understanding that Equol would be safer than finasteride for one key reason: it inhibits DHT while un-affecting neurosteroids. The problem with alpha 5 reductase inhibitiors is that 5 alpha reductase is responsible for the production of neurosteroids and by inhibiting 5 alpha reductase, you change the amounts of these pretty drastically. Since Equol simply binds to DHT, I think we would be able to eliminate the sides people experience and still retain/regrow their hair.

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## PinotQ

> Greetings from ***. NatureMade was supposed to release their S-equol supplement sometime last year, which was indicated in an email I got from them upon requesting this information. They were intending to release it for menopause but they acknowledge that it could be useful for AGA. It is my understanding that Equol would be safer than finasteride for one key reason: it inhibits DHT while un-affecting neurosteroids. The problem with alpha 5 reductase inhibitiors is that 5 alpha reductase is responsible for the production of neurosteroids and by inhibiting 5 alpha reductase, you change the amounts of these pretty drastically. Since Equol simply binds to DHT, I think we would be able to eliminate the sides people experience and still retain/regrow their hair.


 Good information! FYI Nature Made was originally supposed to release s-equol in California in late 2013 and then go nationwide in 2014. It's possible I could have gotten this information from your post.  I emailed Nature Made after they missed their initial release time frame and was told that there were quality control issues with the manufacturing process.  They gave me no indication of how long they would be delayed.

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## cthulhu2

> Good information! FYI Nature Made was originally supposed to release s-equol in California in late 2013 and then go nationwide in 2014. It's possible I could have gotten this information from your post.  I emailed Nature Made after they missed their initial release time frame and was told that there were quality control issues with the manufacturing process.  They gave me no indication of how long they would be delayed.


 Well that's good news to me. I was worried they abandoning all plans to produce the supplement.

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## PinotQ

> Well that's good news to me. I was worried they abandoning all plans to produce the supplement.


 I am hoping that the Nature's Sunshine product I am using is high in quality and consistency.  I have seen the NatureMade product and it is a large solid pill.  For those that might be interested in creating their own topical, the Nature's Sunshine product is encapsulated in powder form.  The thing that is a little odd is that the researchers that have done years of studies (Lund, Setchell,etc.) don't appear to be related to either the Nature's Sunshine or NatureMade products...despite the fact that they have filed patents.

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## cthulhu2

> I am hoping that the Nature's Sunshine product I am using is high in quality and consistency.  I have seen the NatureMade product and it is a large solid pill.  For those that might be interested in creating their own topical, the Nature's Sunshine product is encapsulated in powder form.  The thing that is a little odd is that the researchers that have done years of studies (Lund, Setchell,etc.) don't appear to be related to either the Nature's Sunshine or NatureMade products...despite the fact that they have filed patents.


 How long have you been taking naturesunshine's product? Have you been getting results with it? Forgive me if im a little skeptical of them, but I would feel much more comfortable buying a product from naturemade since they are a much larger company.

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## vred

hey PinotQ!

Thanks for the awesome info!!  I've pretty much given up on nature's made and S Equol after they missed the deadline.  I can't believe it's finally available.  I'm jumping on the bandwagon tomorrow, this has some very interesting and exciting possibilities.

This is the first time a reputable source of S Equol is available for direct introduction.  None of this "eat soy and produce S equol" crap.  At the very least I'll enjoy a few less wrinkles lol.  Keep us posted.

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## PinotQ

> How long have you been taking naturesunshine's product? Have you been getting results with it? Forgive me if im a little skeptical of them, but I would feel much more comfortable buying a product from naturemade since they are a much larger company.


 I just finished my 8th week.  So my guess is that I would be nearing the point where I would be stabilizing.  I believe it is way too early to make any type of assessment of overall effectiveness.  As I said in a few posts above letting everyone know that Nature's Sunshine was available, my scalp feels good and my hair seems to be growing at a faster rate but that could be an illusion......only time will tell.  I had the same skepticism as I had never heard of Nature's Sunshine.  I called the support line and they would not disclose how they manufacture their equol, whether it has been independently tested, or even tell me whether it is s-equol vs. r-equol...........although it most certainly has to be s-equol b/c r-equol does not naturally occur in the body and therefore probably not cleared for sale.  I googled them and they are a large company, they are built on multi-level marketing, and they have been around for a long time.  I did not find anything negative regarding product quality in my search.  It looks and sounds like a quality company from my conversations, which were pleasant and professional, and the literature looks professional.  I would have preferred that they disclose more information but given the patents of others out there, including, I believe, Nature Made, for the manufacturing process, it does not surprise me that they would be tight lipped.  Given the size of the company, length of time in business, and that this is just one of many products, it would be very risky on their part to jeopardize their franchise by putting out a less than credible product.........nonetheless.....it seems to happen all of the time. That being said I would still have more trust in Nature Made.

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## PinotQ

> hey PinotQ!
> 
> Thanks for the awesome info!!  I've pretty much given up on nature's made and S Equol after they missed the deadline.  I can't believe it's finally available.  I'm jumping on the bandwagon tomorrow, this has some very interesting and exciting possibilities.
> 
> This is the first time a reputable source of S Equol is available for direct introduction.  None of this "eat soy and produce S equol" crap.  At the very least I'll enjoy a few less wrinkles lol.  Keep us posted.


 I agree regarding the pill plus soy method.  FYI:  You have to join as a member (no cost) and there is a discount if you buy 9, you get 12 bottles.  Remember, that according to the patent, if you want to be at the max end of steady state in the bloodstream, you need .5mg for every kg of body weight.   When you begin, if you take 48mg,  b/c of the half life, in 8 hours you are down to 24, but then you take another 48 and you are up to 72, then in 8 hours you are down to 36mg, but then you take 48 and you are up to 84.  This stair steps up so that by the 5th day, if a take 48mg 3 times per day, the mg in your bloodstream holds constant at a low of 48mg and a high of 96mg.  Note that this dosing amount is not clinically proven .......this is just what I am trying based on the assumptions in the patent. And remember, it is based on body weight.  So if you weigh less, it takes a lower dose............and you may not want to start at the max end.  Good Luck!!!

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## thechamp

Where can I buy  s equol from I wonder if I will gain weight from this like I did from propecia ? Do you hoenstly think this is effective for hair loss ?

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## thechamp

How about putting a few s equol tablets in minoxdill ?

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## cthulhu2

> I agree regarding the pill plus soy method.  FYI:  You have to join as a member (no cost) and there is a discount if you buy 9, you get 12 bottles.  Remember, that according to the patent, if you want to be at the max end of steady state in the bloodstream, you need .5mg for every kg of body weight.   When you begin, if you take 48mg,  b/c of the half life, in 8 hours you are down to 24, but then you take another 48 and you are up to 72, then in 8 hours you are down to 36mg, but then you take 48 and you are up to 84.  This stair steps up so that by the 5th day, if a take 48mg 3 times per day, the mg in your bloodstream holds constant at a low of 48mg and a high of 96mg.  Note that this dosing amount is not clinically proven .......this is just what I am trying based on the assumptions in the patent. And remember, it is based on body weight.  So if you weigh less, it takes a lower dose............and you may not want to start at the max end.  Good Luck!!!


 Thanks for the detailed post! I think I will wait to see what kind of results you get before deciding on buying the product.

----------


## cthulhu2

> I just finished my 8th week.  So my guess is that I would be nearing the point where I would be stabilizing.  I believe it is way too early to make any type of assessment of overall effectiveness.  As I said in a few posts above letting everyone know that Nature's Sunshine was available, my scalp feels good and my hair seems to be growing at a faster rate but that could be an illusion......only time will tell.  I had the same skepticism as I had never heard of Nature's Sunshine.  I called the support line and they would not disclose how they manufacture their equol, whether it has been independently tested, or even tell me whether it is s-equol vs. r-equol...........although it most certainly has to be s-equol b/c r-equol does not naturally occur in the body and therefore probably not cleared for sale.  I googled them and they are a large company, they are built on multi-level marketing, and they have been around for a long time.  I did not find anything negative regarding product quality in my search.  It looks and sounds like a quality company from my conversations, which were pleasant and professional, and the literature looks professional.  I would have preferred that they disclose more information but given the patents of others out there, including, I believe, Nature Made, for the manufacturing process, it does not surprise me that they would be tight lipped.  Given the size of the company, length of time in business, and that this is just one of many products, it would be very risky on their part to jeopardize their franchise by putting out a less than credible product.........nonetheless.....it seems to happen all of the time. That being said I would still have more trust in Nature Made.


 Thank you for the detailed post! I think I will wait to see what kind of results you get before buying the product. One more question, have you noticed any sides from the supplement related to finasteride, or have you never taken finasteride?

----------


## hair200k

Pinot, 8 weeks wow! You've gone a long way. Don't let no body rush you. I believe in your mission. I will continue to show my support and will be checking back up on this thread. I also agree that 8 weeks is too soon to see any real results. Fin doesn't really show results until AT LEAST a few months to half a year so I wouldn't be surprised if this natural process takes even longer. You have my backing on this mission for sure.

----------


## thechamp

How about crushing s equol tablets in to minoxdill any one tried this ?

----------


## PinotQ

> Thank you for the detailed post! I think I will wait to see what kind of results you get before buying the product. One more question, have you noticed any sides from the supplement related to finasteride, or have you never taken finasteride?


 I have taken finastride and used minoxidil for years and I have never noticed any sides from either product.  Thru 8 weeks on s-equol, I have not noticed any sides.  Since I have never had any sides from anything, I am probably not the best anecdotal example.  I have not seen any reported side effects from s-equol in any of the studies.

----------


## PinotQ

> Where can I buy  s equol from I wonder if I will gain weight from this like I did from propecia ? Do you hoenstly think this is effective for hair loss ?


 You can buy s-equol from Nature's Sunshine......just google it.  Possibly also available from Nature Made soon but no word on a release date.  I do believe s-equol has the potential to shut down hairloss.  Finasteride does not eliminate DHT, it just reduces it which can halt hairloss and result in some improvement.  But as Dr. Rassman has said, DHT will eventually win the battle.  This has been my experience.  Finasteride halted my hairloss for years and I did see some slight reversal.  But finasteride has gradually become less effective and DHT is winning the battle.  It's all speculative at this point but here is how I look at it:  It is a fact that s-equol binds to DHT with high affinity; It is not a fact that s-equol has been proven 100% safe and side effect free at any dosage, but given studies to date and the fact that s-equol appears in natural producers at 20 times higher levels than the dosage I am using, without side effects, I believe that safety, at my dosage level, is not only a reasonable assumption but highly likely; It is a fact that people naturally missing the 5 alpha reductase enzyme, who cannot therefore produce DHT, do not suffer from androgenic alopecia; The issue, in my mind, is then: What is the dosage that will eliminate DHT, and will the cost be prohibitive.

----------


## Thinning@30

> You can buy s-equol from Nature's Sunshine......just google it. Possibly also available from Nature Made soon but no word on a release date. I do believe s-equol has the potential to shut down hairloss. Finasteride does not eliminate DHT, it just reduces it which can halt hairloss and result in some improvement. But as Dr. Rassman has said, DHT will eventually win the battle. This has been my experience. Finasteride halted my hairloss for years and I did see some slight reversal. But finasteride has gradually become less effective and DHT is winning the battle. It's all speculative at this point but here is how I look at it: It is a fact that s-equol binds to DHT with high affinity; It is not a fact that s-equol has been proven 100% safe and side effect free at any dosage, but given studies to date and the fact that s-equol appears in natural producers at 20 times higher levels than the dosage I am using, without side effects, I believe that safety, at my dosage level, is not only a reasonable assumption but highly likely; It is a fact that people naturally missing the 5 alpha reductase enzyme, who cannot therefore produce DHT, do not suffer from androgenic alopecia; The issue, in my mind, is then: What is the dosage that will eliminate DHT, and will the cost be prohibitive.


 Interesting.  What dosage do you take?  I couldn't seem to find any information on the Nature Sunshine website about the contents of the pills.  Is the product thought to convert people to S equol producers?

----------


## PinotQ

> Interesting.  What dosage do you take?  I couldn't seem to find any information on the Nature Sunshine website about the contents of the pills.  Is the product thought to convert people to S equol producers?


 The Nature's Sunshine product contains 6mg of equol per capsule.  It isn't a product that helps you convert soy to s-equol.   I take 48 mg 3 times per day.  See posts above for more detail.

----------


## Thinning@30

> The Nature's Sunshine product contains 6mg of equol per capsule. It isn't a product that helps you convert soy to s-equol. I take 48 mg 3 times per day. See posts above for more detail.


 Thanks.  At that rate you must be going through a bottle of capsules every few days!  It must cost a fortune.  I have read a bit on this stuff, and it seems interesting as sort of a general anti-aging product.  It sounds like there is potential for DHT binding, but I can't imagine it would do anything for hair loss, other than possibly arresting it or slowing it down.

----------


## thechamp

Has any body ever tried mixing s equol with minoxdill honestly it could work like topical fin ??? Anbody thought of this ??

----------


## bananana

I tried equol for 3-4 months from that company folexen, that went bust. I bought shitload of pill (then sold them).
Who knows what was in those pills, anyways - I didnt notice anything.

I'm willing to try it out again (REAL equol), *pinotQ* do you see any results from that massive dosage?

----------


## cthulhu2

> Has any body ever tried mixing s equol with minoxdill honestly it could work like topical fin ??? Anbody thought of this ??


 I am pretty doubtful that this would work but it is possible. Topical finasteride works to the extent that it is absorbed into the bloodstream. Studies indicate that the two (topical and oral) finasteride are similar in efficacy and that finasteride is highly absorbed through the blood stream.

Therefore, its easier to take finasteride orally.

----------


## thechamp

I'm just wondering if any one has tried to add s equol  to minoxdill because if it does bind to dht like people say , this could be a very effective topical why hasn't any body tried this topical ?

----------


## kmit028

> I'm just wondering if any one has tried to add s equol  to minoxdill because if it does bind to dht like people say , this could be a very effective topical why hasn't any body tried this topical ?


 I have done a bit of reading on Equol from previous years threads and nope, no one has tried this as a topical.

We have an estimate (thanks to PinotQ) on how much we should take internally based on body weight. BUT we do not have any estimate as to how much is needed for a topical. And also what vehicle would work. 

SO someone (maybe you) should buy some Equol and begin testing solubility and effectiveness as a topical.

Start with the standard Ethanol and PG (or BG) 70/30 vehicle OR just dump into Minox, and say 5% concentration (roughly one capsule per 1ml) and lets see if that yields any results (good/bad). Then increase/decrease conc. to see find optimal effectiveness...

Good luck who ever tries it and let us know how you go!

----------


## cthulhu2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJV-e4RdVn4
Commercial from Nature's Sunshine for Equolibirium. This in theory should help with hairloss and eliminate the cognitive downfalls seen by some finasteride users, however I haven't seen a study to date on the relationships between Equol and hairloss, combined with the fact that the supplement is rather expensive. I really want to try this but don't want to lose any finasteride gains by switching and experimenting.

I don't really doubt that their product is real, as they seem to be a large enough company and the fact that they are heavily marketing this particular supplement.

----------


## Jcm800

I'm afraid that video reminds me of that Keratene scam pill. Same kind blurb..

----------


## PinotQ

> I have done a bit of reading on Equol from previous years threads and nope, no one has tried this as a topical.
> 
> We have an estimate (thanks to PinotQ) on how much we should take internally based on body weight. BUT we do not have any estimate as to how much is needed for a topical. And also what vehicle would work. 
> 
> SO someone (maybe you) should buy some Equol and begin testing solubility and effectiveness as a topical.
> 
> Start with the standard Ethanol and PG (or BG) 70/30 vehicle OR just dump into Minox, and say 5% concentration (roughly one capsule per 1ml) and lets see if that yields any results (good/bad). Then increase/decrease conc. to see find optimal effectiveness...
> 
> Good luck who ever tries it and let us know how you go!


 The patent where I got the dosing information I am trying also has a range of concentrations for topical use.    http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071

----------


## PinotQ

> Thanks.  At that rate you must be going through a bottle of capsules every few days!  It must cost a fortune.  I have read a bit on this stuff, and it seems interesting as sort of a general anti-aging product.  It sounds like there is potential for DHT binding, but I can't imagine it would do anything for hair loss, other than possibly arresting it or slowing it down.


 You are correct.................I am estimating $3,500 + for the year.

----------


## PinotQ

> I tried equol for 3-4 months from that company folexen, that went bust. I bought shitload of pill (then sold them).
> Who knows what was in those pills, anyways - I didnt notice anything.
> 
> I'm willing to try it out again (REAL equol), *pinotQ* do you see any results from that massive dosage?


 It is way too early to draw any conclusions.

----------


## PinotQ

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJV-e4RdVn4
> Commercial from Nature's Sunshine for Equolibirium. This in theory should help with hairloss and eliminate the cognitive downfalls seen by some finasteride users, however I haven't seen a study to date on the relationships between Equol and hairloss, combined with the fact that the supplement is rather expensive. I really want to try this but don't want to lose any finasteride gains by switching and experimenting.
> 
> I don't really doubt that their product is real, as they seem to be a large enough company and the fact that they are heavily marketing this particular supplement.


 I'm on both so I'll be a good test case for you.

----------


## PinotQ

> The patent where I got the dosing information I am trying also has a range of concentrations for topical use.    http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071


 At 0117, here is the topical information: A product for topical application can comprise at least 0.001% or 0.01%, and up to 10%, by weight S-equol, or R-equol, or enantiomeric mixtures. Selected concentration ranges include from about 0.001% to about 3%; from about 0.001% to about 1%; from about 0.01% to about 3%, from about 0.1% to about 1%, from about 0.1% to about 3%, from about 0.1% to about 5%, from about 0.3% to about 1%, from about 0.3% to about 3%, from about 0.3% to about 5%, from about 0.5% to about 1%, from about 0.5% to about 3%, and from about 0.5% to about 5%. Typically, 0.01% to 1% is an effective concentration range that can be applied at a variety of intervals. In some cases, it is preferred to apply equol in a concentration of up to 5% to treat some pathological conditions or diseases. There are also instances in which a concentration of up to 10% may be required, due to the severity of a condition or disease, or because an individual is a non-equol producer, thus requiring administration of a greater amount of exogenous equol.

----------


## bananana

Ok guys,
I feel good about this. I'll give it a shot for a year. I just need to find shipping to my newly-EU country.  :Smile: 
I found out that if you buy 9 bottles you get 3 for free, which is pretty sweet.

----------


## cthulhu2

I feel like the only way to know if this is working is to get a blood test done before and after taking the supplement to see if it has an effect on serum DHT.

----------


## hair200k

> I feel like the only way to know if this is working is to get a blood test done before and after taking the supplement to see if it has an effect on serum DHT.


 Agreed. I don't mind putting out 3500 a year if it delivers result. If I were to be putting that huge amount of money, I want to make sure that it is well worth it with quantified data to track its progress instead of  just eyeballing it.

----------


## kmit028

> Agreed. I don't mind putting out 3500 a year if it delivers result. If I were to be putting that huge amount of money, I want to make sure that it is well worth it with quantified data to track its progress instead of  just eyeballing it.


 @PinotQ

Would you be able to take a DHT blood test and share the results with us?

----------


## thechamp

The sides I got with fin was weight gain, so does s equol work the same I think weight gain is cause from blacking dht and tetosterone turning in to estrogen does any body know if this will have the same effect ?

----------


## PinotQ

> @PinotQ
> 
> Would you be able to take a DHT blood test and share the results with us?


 Sorry, that is not something I plan on doing.  If you really wanted to know, you could take a DHT blood test and then take equol for a week and take another blood test.  If it didn't work, you would only be out $50 to $100 worth of equol depending on your weight and the dosage you are trying.  But from the research I have read, I believe the fact that equol binds to DHT is not in question.  There are many studies but here are a few that address the issue:  http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4/  &  http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedres...&npos=21&prt=3  For more studies, especially studies done on the effects of equol in humans, take a look at Nature Made's website on the research studies tab here: http://www.naturalequol.com/research.html  One of the studies you will see gives a great summary, not only of equol's ability to bind DT but of the many other in-vivo effects of equol and how it was the most potent anti-oxidant tested.  Interestingly, this study has a date of 2010 and they suggest that the recently found/discovered ability to synthesize bulk quantities of equol (equol was first discovered in 1932) would accelerate further detailed studies.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884334/  So for me, the real question is dosage. I am experimenting at the high end of the dosage level as referred to in the patent, the owner's of which are the primary authors of many of the studies you will find dating back years.

Also to thechamp:  One thing you will see in the studies is a finding that equol does not alter circulating sex hormones, at least the ones they tested.  For example, see:  http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hsa043010.php  where they say:

Levels of six hormones remained in the normal range and did not significantly differ between men receiving a placebo (12 men) or one of two daily doses of SE5-OH containing Natural S-equol, 10 milligrams (mg) (17 men) or 30 mg (17 men) for 12 weeks. Study investigators specifically measured total testosterone, free testosterone, estradiol, thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), FreeT3 (a form of triiodothyronine) and FreeT4 (a form of thyroxine).

Note that the 2 hormones you are concerned about, testosterone and estradiol (estrogen) remain unchanged.

----------


## bananana

pinotQ, thanks with your answers. I'll be following your path soon.
A question more general:  lets say we remove DHT out of the equation, wont our follicles have decent nutrients flow to them again? 
Wont that do a bit more than just "maintaining"?

----------


## cthulhu2

> Sorry, that is not something I plan on doing.  If you really wanted to know, you could take a DHT blood test and then take equol for a week and take another blood test.  If it didn't work, you would only be out $50 to $100 worth of equol depending on your weight and the dosage you are trying.  But from the research I have read, I believe the fact that equol binds to DHT is not in question.  There are many studies but here are a few that address the issue:  http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4/  &  http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedres...&npos=21&prt=3  For more studies, especially studies done on the effects of equol in humans, take a look at Nature Made's website on the research studies tab here: http://www.naturalequol.com/research.html  One of the studies you will see gives a great summary, not only of equol's ability to bind DT but of the many other in-vivo effects of equol and how it was the most potent anti-oxidant tested.  Interestingly, this study has a date of 2010 and they suggest that the recently found/discovered ability to synthesize bulk quantities of equol (equol was first discovered in 1932) would accelerate further detailed studies.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884334/  So for me, the real question is dosage. I am experimenting at the high end of the dosage level as referred to in the patent, the owner's of which are the primary authors of many of the studies you will find dating back years.
> 
> Also to thechamp:  One thing you will see in the studies is a finding that equol does not alter circulating sex hormones, at least the ones they tested.  For example, see:  http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hsa043010.php  where they say:
> 
> Levels of six hormones remained in the normal range and did not significantly differ between men receiving a placebo (12 men) or one of two daily doses of SE5-OH containing Natural S-equol, 10 milligrams (mg) (17 men) or 30 mg (17 men) for 12 weeks. Study investigators specifically measured total testosterone, free testosterone, estradiol, thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), FreeT3 (a form of triiodothyronine) and FreeT4 (a form of thyroxine).
> 
> Note that the 2 hormones you are concerned about, testosterone and estradiol (estrogen) remain unchanged.


 My issue with these studies is that they were all done in either a petri dish or in mice. Are there any studies done on humans that measure the amount of dht reduction in serum?

----------


## Borealis

So can someone summarise for me, apologies if it's glaringly obvious, what S-equol's primary mechanism in fighting hair loss actually is? Is it a DHT receptor antagonist like CB, or a 5AR inhibitor like Finasteride or something else? Sorry if I've missed it somewhere, I did try and have a look around the internet.

----------


## cthulhu2

> So can someone summarise for me, apologies if it's glaringly obvious, what S-equol's primary mechanism in fighting hair loss actually is? Is it a DHT receptor antagonist like CB, or a 5AR inhibitor like Finasteride or something else? Sorry if I've missed it somewhere, I did try and have a look around the internet.


 Neither, it binds to dht making it inactive. What this means is dht wont bind to the androgen receptor but will still exist in thr blood stream. The appeal of equol is tgat it doesn't inhibit 5 alpha reductase.

----------


## PinotQ

> pinotQ, thanks with your answers. I'll be following your path soon.
> A question more general:  lets say we remove DHT out of the equation, wont our follicles have decent nutrients flow to them again? 
> Wont that do a bit more than just "maintaining"?


 I would think s-equol would do a bit more than maintain for 2 reasons: 1) If it theoretically eliminates most all DHT as opposed to the approximately 70 % seen with finasteride, you might expect at least as good of a bounce back as seen with some finasteride users; and 2) Equol also attaches to the estrogen receptor B which is found throughout the scalp and on the follicles.  It is thought that this estrogen effect positively influences hair growth.  Of course, follicles damaged beyond a certain point would not likely see any benefit.

----------


## PinotQ

> My issue with these studies is that they were all done in either a petri dish or in mice. Are there any studies done on humans that measure the amount of dht reduction in serum?


 In study after study, Lund and Setchell, 2 of the preeminent researchers of equol state that equol is a potent antagonist of and binds to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in vivo.  They make this statement in studies involving humans yet it is not clear exactly how that conclusion is drawn, whether from human blood samples or prior studies not involving humans.  Nonetheless, here is at least one study:  http://file.scirp.org/Html/1-1980115_42404.htm  "The results of this study showed a low dose of equol positively improved moderate to severe BPH symptoms according to the IPSS indices. In moderately symptomatic men (n = 10) 5 out of 7 of the IPSS parameters significantly improved by 4 weeks of equol treatment (see Figure 5). In severely symptomatic men (n = 8) all 7 of the IPSS parameters significantly improved with 4 weeks of equol treatment (see Figure 6). There were no significant changes in androgen levels, general blood chemistries or cardiac and hepatic function parameters. However, 5α-DHT levels declined by 21% in severely symptomatic men (from baseline vs. 4 week values)."

----------


## PinotQ

cthulhu2,  Here is another study that was referred to in the Lund/Setchell patent here:   http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071

In Men and Women, Serum 5α-DHT Levels Before and after Treatment with Non-Racemic Equol 

[0245]In a pilot study involving 4 men (ages 50 to 59 years old) and 2 postmenopausal women (ages 60 to 62), baseline levels of serum 5α-dihydrotestosterone (5α-DHT) were determined by ELISA in triplicate. After 7 days of oral dosing with *3 mg of non-racemic equol per day*, 5α-DHT levels were again determined. 

TABLE-US-00013 TABLE 13 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning oral dosing (two to four dose on the 7th day of hours after the 1st morning MEN treatment dose) Subject A 692 + 10 pg/ml 600 + 13 pg/ml* Subject B 724 + 18 pg/ml 612 + 18 pg/ml* Subject C 658 + 23 pg/ml 534 + 16 pg/ml* Subject D 747 + 27 pg/ml 596 + 28 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values 

TABLE-US-00014 TABLE 14 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning dose oral dosing (two to four hours WOMEN on the 7th day of treatment after the 1st morning dose) Subject E 221 + 5 pg/ml 170 + 6 pg/ml* Subject F 265 + 14 pg/ml 193 + 20 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values 

[0246]*This studies demonstrated that oral consumption of equol significantly decreased serum 5α-DHT levels in men (by approximately 17%) and in women (by approximately 26%).*

----------


## baldymcgee

> cthulhu2,  Here is another study that was referred to in the Lund/Setchell patent here:   http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071
> 
> In Men and Women, Serum 5α-DHT Levels Before and after Treatment with Non-Racemic Equol 
> 
> [0245]In a pilot study involving 4 men (ages 50 to 59 years old) and 2 postmenopausal women (ages 60 to 62), baseline levels of serum 5α-dihydrotestosterone (5α-DHT) were determined by ELISA in triplicate. After 7 days of oral dosing with *3 mg of non-racemic equol per day*, 5α-DHT levels were again determined. 
> 
> TABLE-US-00013 TABLE 13 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning oral dosing (two to four dose on the 7th day of hours after the 1st morning MEN treatment dose) Subject A 692 + 10 pg/ml 600 + 13 pg/ml* Subject B 724 + 18 pg/ml 612 + 18 pg/ml* Subject C 658 + 23 pg/ml 534 + 16 pg/ml* Subject D 747 + 27 pg/ml 596 + 28 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values 
> 
> TABLE-US-00014 TABLE 14 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning dose oral dosing (two to four hours WOMEN on the 7th day of treatment after the 1st morning dose) Subject E 221 + 5 pg/ml 170 + 6 pg/ml* Subject F 265 + 14 pg/ml 193 + 20 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values 
> ...


 These results are great, but why is no one selling S-Equol supplements? Argh.

We need someone to set up a kickstarter campaign for this.

----------


## cthulhu2

> cthulhu2,  Here is another study that was referred to in the Lund/Setchell patent here:   http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071
> 
> In Men and Women, Serum 5α-DHT Levels Before and after Treatment with Non-Racemic Equol 
> 
> [0245]In a pilot study involving 4 men (ages 50 to 59 years old) and 2 postmenopausal women (ages 60 to 62), baseline levels of serum 5α-dihydrotestosterone (5α-DHT) were determined by ELISA in triplicate. After 7 days of oral dosing with *3 mg of non-racemic equol per day*, 5α-DHT levels were again determined. 
> 
> TABLE-US-00013 TABLE 13 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning oral dosing (two to four dose on the 7th day of hours after the 1st morning MEN treatment dose) Subject A 692 + 10 pg/ml 600 + 13 pg/ml* Subject B 724 + 18 pg/ml 612 + 18 pg/ml* Subject C 658 + 23 pg/ml 534 + 16 pg/ml* Subject D 747 + 27 pg/ml 596 + 28 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values 
> 
> TABLE-US-00014 TABLE 14 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning dose oral dosing (two to four hours WOMEN on the 7th day of treatment after the 1st morning dose) Subject E 221 + 5 pg/ml 170 + 6 pg/ml* Subject F 265 + 14 pg/ml 193 + 20 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values 
> ...


 Thanks Pinot, this was exactly what I was looking for. I guess there is no denying that equol works in men. That is a pretty significant drop in DHT from such a small dose. Combined with finasteride, this could provide some serious benefit.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

I'm having trouble finding where this is available.. thread is too long.

So nature's made isn't out yet?

just equolibrium from

http://herbal-store.natural-remedies...FdBi7AodIAIAbg

?

----------


## cthulhu2

> I'm having trouble finding where this is available.. thread is too long.
> 
> So nature's made isn't out yet?
> 
> just equolibrium from
> 
> http://herbal-store.natural-remedies...FdBi7AodIAIAbg
> 
> ?


 Nature Made had some issues with quality control according to Pinot. I emailed them last year and they said they planned on manufacturing near the end of 2013, so hopefully not much longer. I think NS's product is legit though since they are a large company, however NatureMade's stuff is likely to be cheaper.

----------


## PinotQ

> I'm having trouble finding where this is available.. thread is too long.
> 
> So nature's made isn't out yet?
> 
> just equolibrium from
> 
> http://herbal-store.natural-remedies...FdBi7AodIAIAbg
> 
> ?


  Yes Nature's Sunshine is the only version currently available.  Here is a link to the Equolibrium page:  

http://www.naturessunshine.com/us/ge...(60%20capsules

----------


## baldymcgee

> Yes Nature's Sunshine is the only version currently available.  Here is a link to the Equolibrium page:  
> 
> http://www.naturessunshine.com/us/ge...(60%20capsules


 Thanks for the URL!

They only call this "Equol" as opposed to "S-Equol" -- is there a difference?

----------


## redsiberian

Yes there is a difference between R-Equol and S-Equol. THe fact that Nature's Sunshine won't reveal which type is in its product is a bad sign.

----------


## baldymcgee

> Yes there is a difference between R-Equol and S-Equol. THe fact that Nature's Sunshine won't reveal which type is in its product is a bad sign.


 G*d dammit. Has anyone contacted them to inquire?

----------


## PinotQ

> G*d dammit. Has anyone contacted them to inquire?


 They did not respond to my email but you could call them.  My understanding is that s-equol is a GRAS product (generally regarded as safe) and therefore does not require FDA approval. But r-equol does not naturally occur as a byproduct of soy in the body and is not GRAS.  So I assume if they can sell it, it must be s-equol.

----------


## cthulhu2

> They did not respond to my email but you could call them.  My understanding is that s-equol is a GRAS product (generally regarded as safe) and therefore does not require FDA approval. But r-equol does not naturally occur as a byproduct of soy in the body and is not GRAS.  So I assume if they can sell it, it must be s-equol.


 I agree with this, the company seems to manufacturer only natural products and since they are marketing it for bph it sounds like s-equol.

----------


## Californication

good to see you back on this topic PinotQ, I remember discussing this with you before.

Theoretically, would this lead to gyno symptoms as well? Since even if the hormonal levels are not changed, DHT is an antagonist of estrogen? I know there's only one way to find out but I'm loathe to go down that path again so curious about any opinions.

----------


## thechamp

> good to see you back on this topic PinotQ, I remember discussing this with you before.
> 
> Theoretically, would this lead to gyno symptoms as well? Since even if the hormonal levels are not changed, DHT is an antagonist of estrogen? I know there's only one way to find out but I'm loathe to go down that path again so curious about any opinions.


 Good Qestion I also want to know if I will gain weight on this ??

----------


## PinotQ

> good to see you back on this topic PinotQ, I remember discussing this with you before.
> 
> Theoretically, would this lead to gyno symptoms as well? Since even if the hormonal levels are not changed, DHT is an antagonist of estrogen? I know there's only one way to find out but I'm loathe to go down that path again so curious about any opinions.


 Californication,  To take your line of thought 1 step further, equol also binds to estrogen receptor B so it also acts as an estrogen......hopefully a positive with regard to hair.  I don't know the answer but you might suspect that if DHT was an antagonist of estrogen, that lower levels of DHT would result in higher levels of estradiol.  Numerous studies confirm that estradiol levels remain unchanged with the use of equol.  Similarly and although I do not believe this has been studied enough in depth to confirm, but equol does not appear to increase the risk of estrogen sensitive breast cancer.  http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...129719753.html  Beyond that, all I can say is that after 9 weeks at 144mg per day, I have experienced no negative side effects.  I work out regularly and have also noticed no decrease in muscle mass or increase in weight.

----------


## hgs1989

> Californication,  To take your line of thought 1 step further, equol also binds to estrogen receptor B so it also acts as an estrogen......hopefully a positive with regard to hair.  I don't know the answer but you might suspect that if DHT was an antagonist of estrogen, that lower levels of DHT would result in higher levels of estradiol.  Numerous studies confirm that estradiol levels remain unchanged with the use of equol.  Similarly and although I do not believe this has been studied enough in depth to confirm, but equol does not appear to increase the risk of estrogen sensitive breast cancer.  http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...129719753.html  Beyond that, all I can say is that after 9 weeks at 144mg per day, I have experienced no negative side effects.  I work out regularly and have also noticed no decrease in muscle mass or increase in weight.


 how about effects on hair ?

----------


## PinotQ

> how about effects on hair ?


 Too early to say.  I have tried many things over the years and have learned not to jump to any early conclusions.  If the benefit is straightline maintenance only, it would probably take a year to make that call.  If there are positive growth effects, I would suspect that might become apparent at about the 4 month mark at the earliest.   I tried ACell powder/PRP injections and was told I would see nothing for 4 months.........and that is exactly what happened.........I saw thickening at 4 months which later faded.  So anything I could say now would be little more than wishful thinking.

----------


## baldymcgee

> I agree with this, the company seems to manufacturer only natural products and since they are marketing it for bph it sounds like s-equol.


 I totally get that but, if that was the case, then why wouldn't they market it as such? Or, at least, respond to inquiries with something like "we have confirmed the active ingredient in our product to be 95% S-Equol".

The silence troubles me.

----------


## cthulhu2

> I totally get that but, if that was the case, then why wouldn't they market it as such? Or, at least, respond to inquiries with something like "we have confirmed the active ingredient in our product to be 95% S-Equol".
> 
> The silence troubles me.


 I will call them tomorrow and report on this. I think most people understand Equol to be S equol, but perhaps they couldn't call it that for patent purposes or something along those lines. This was my guess behind why they were not marketing it for AGA or menopause.

----------


## thechamp

Why is S equol so hard to find ?? I mean there have been companies before like foxelen not sure if it was a scam , but S equol itself sounds like a fairy tale product that only excists in fairy tale and on paper?

----------


## cthulhu2

> Why is S equol so hard to find ?? I mean there have been companies before like foxelen not sure if it was a scam , but S equol itself sounds like a fairy tale product that only excists in fairy tale and on paper?


 Folexen was definitely a scam. The thing about S Equol is it is very difficult to synthesize and mass produce. NatureMade was supposed to have a product out last year but they had some quality control issues which hopefully they will resolve by the end of the year.

----------


## thechamp

Thank you for your interest in S-equol. In conjunction with our parent company, Otsuka Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd., Pharmavite LLC is currently studying the supplement containing S-equol for the management of menopausal symptoms. More information about the supplement containing S-equol, including results of studies, can be found at http://www.naturalequol.com. Currently S-equol supplements are not available for purchase and are only available in the U.S. via the Sampling Trial for menopausal symptom relief. If you like to get more information please visit our website at www.naturalequol.com.

Best regards,


Evette Aidinian
Associate Brand Manager
Pharmavite LLC

----------


## cthulhu2

I tried calling them, and they asked about my account password blah blah blah. Why do they make answering a simple question so difficult.

----------


## PinotQ

> I tried calling them, and they asked about my account password blah blah blah. Why do they make answering a simple question so difficult.


 If I get some time today, I will try to call them since I do have an account.

----------


## thechamp

Michael,

Currently S-equol supplements are only available through the Sampling Trial and a launch date has not been announced. If you like to get more information please visit our website at www.naturalequol.com.

----------


## thechamp

Any updates pinotq ? Your hair loss stable or you stopped shedding , I'm really interested In adding this to minoxdill any ideas how much?

----------


## PinotQ

> Any updates pinotq ? Your hair loss stable or you stopped shedding , I'm really interested In adding this to minoxdill any ideas how much?


 Too early to make any assessments.  I have never really noticed much shedding so I wouldn't see any change in that respect anyway.  10 weeks in on Monday at 48mg, 3 times per day.  No idea on quantity if you are mixing with minoxidil.  I did email Nature's Sunshine regarding the S vs R equol issue and got a quick reply stating that they would forward my question to the health science department.

----------


## PinotQ

Nothing really new in this link but I think it contains a good summary of the many unique possibilities of the equol molecule:  

http://techtransfer.byu.edu/products...weight-control

Note the inventors are the same group that have been researching equol for over 15 years.

----------


## Adaku

The product page for Nature's Sunshine Equolibrium states that "equol is a naturally occurring flavonoid found in some plants, including beans, cabbage and lettuce. It is a powerful antioxidant. Natures Sunshines Equolibrium uses a nature-identical source of equol derived from non-GMO daidzein."

I'm guessing that this is probably a racemic mixture since they are non-specific about it:

http://www.masterorganicchemistry.co...cemic-mixture/

It appears that it is possible to synthesize an R/S equol mixture from daidzein:

http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/2/3/340/pdf

"Racemic (±)-equol can be synthesized from daidzein and formonetin, which 
are readily available in sufficient quantities from plants or can be prepared by chemical synthesis."

You can produce pure s-equol using a certain bacteria (on daidzein, I believe):

"The pure S-equol enantiomer can be produced by microbiological methods"

They may be doing either, and they may be isolating the s-equol from the racemic equol. It's hard to say which, but I'm thinking it's a mix of R and S equol.

----------


## Adaku

Also, Otsuka Pharmaceuticals, the parent company of NaturesMade/Pharmavite, released an s-equol product in Japan back in April:
http://www.otsuka.co.jp/en/product/equelle/

It hasn't quite made it to the states, however.

----------


## thechamp

> The product page for Nature's Sunshine Equolibrium states that "equol is a naturally occurring flavonoid found in some plants, including beans, cabbage and lettuce. It is a powerful antioxidant. Natures Sunshines Equolibrium uses a nature-identical source of equol derived from non-GMO daidzein."
> 
> I'm guessing that this is probably a racemic mixture since they are non-specific about it:
> 
> http://www.masterorganicchemistry.co...cemic-mixture/
> 
> It appears that it is possible to synthesize an R/S equol mixture from daidzein:
> 
> http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/2/3/340/pdf
> ...


 So your saying natures sunshine is not 100 percent s-equol

----------


## Adaku

> So your saying natures sunshine is not 100 percent s-equol


 Not necessarily, it could be, but I think it's more likely something closer to 50% R-equol and 50% S-equol. That may or may not be terribly significant. R-equol binds dht as well, as far as I could tell. I am not sure if the two are metabolized the same, however, which may affect the dosage. I plan to look into that when I get a chance.

I've been taking about 36 mg / day (12mg every ~8 hours) of Nature's Sunshine Equolibrium for 2 months now. Not long enough for any changes. In retrospect, I do think a blood test would've been a good idea before and after starting it.

----------


## cthulhu2

> Not necessarily, it could be, but I think it's more likely something closer to 50% R-equol and 50% S-equol. That may or may not be terribly significant. R-equol binds dht as well, as far as I could tell. I am not sure if the two are metabolized the same, however, which may affect the dosage. I plan to look into that when I get a chance.
> 
> I've been taking about 36 mg / day (12mg every ~8 hours) of Nature's Sunshine Equolibrium for 2 months now. Not long enough for any changes. In retrospect, I do think a blood test would've been a good idea before and after starting it.


 My sister recently had blood work done. It would have been over 200 if she didn't have insurance; and this was for 1 test. I think before and after pictures would be just as useful. Do you mind taking some clear before and after pictures for us? Two weeks certainly isn't enough to make any discernible difference so I think the before and after shots would be valuable.

----------


## kmit028

> I've been taking about 36 mg / day (12mg every ~8 hours) of Nature's Sunshine Equolibrium for 2 months now. Not long enough for any changes. In retrospect, I do think a blood test would've been a good idea before and after starting it.


 are you also on FIN or RU or DUT?

And are you getting any side effects (limp dick, etc...)?

----------


## thechamp

I still think we are going to have to wait for natures made s equol  because it doesn't look like natures sunshine is 100 percent s equol , and a user has already been on natures sunshine product for two months with no changes not looking good

----------


## thechamp

Is there really any difference between natures sunshine s equol or foxelen s s equol  ?

----------


## lepke

eqoul is really tough and expensive to make, I will not trust them.

----------


## cthulhu2

> Is there really any difference between natures sunshine s equol or foxelen s s equol  ?


 Yes, folexen is not a legitimate company and no longer can be found. People make the mistake that since folexens equol Didnt work natures sunshine wont work. This type of comparison should not be made. Tge issue witg pinotq is he is also taking fin and has no before and after pics. We really need someone to take before and after pics of a 4 mont duration or even better, bloodwork.

----------


## Adaku

@kmit028: I am not on any of those at the moment. I've also had no side effects at all with the equol. 

@cthulhu2: If I have any noticeable differences another two months or later down the road, I can provide pictures. 

@thechamp: Nature's Sunshine doesn't say that their product is s-equol. I'm skeptical that Folexen was legitimate. I think it's safe to say that Nature's Sunshine is a legitimate equol product, although not necessarily 100% s-equol. 

--

So, my preference is still for bloodwork. It'd be roughly $260 for two DHT blood tests (LEF DHT test). I and Pinotq are taking different dosages of the supplement, which is rather expensive (~$150-200/month for me). Does anyone have an idea of how long it takes for dht levels to return to normal for a blood test after discontinuing something like fin or equol?

----------


## cthulhu2

> @kmit028: I am not on any of those at the moment. I've also had no side effects at all with the equol. 
> 
> @cthulhu2: If I have any noticeable differences another two months or later down the road, I can provide pictures. 
> 
> @thechamp: Nature's Sunshine doesn't say that their product is s-equol. I'm skeptical that Folexen was legitimate. I think it's safe to say that Nature's Sunshine is a legitimate equol product, although not necessarily 100% s-equol. 
> 
> --
> 
> So, my preference is still for bloodwork. It'd be roughly $260 for two DHT blood tests (LEF DHT test). I and Pinotq are taking different dosages of the supplement, which is rather expensive (~$150-200/month for me). Does anyone have an idea of how long it takes for dht levels to return to normal for a blood test after discontinuing something like fin or equol?


 No longer than 2 weeks. 
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...hreadid=104754.

I would be willing to pitch in money for that blood test if others are.

----------


## PinotQ

> Yes, folexen is not a legitimate company and no longer can be found. People make the mistake that since folexens equol Didnt work natures sunshine wont work. This type of comparison should not be made. Tge issue witg pinotq is he is also taking fin and has no before and after pics. We really need someone to take before and after pics of a 4 mont duration or even better, bloodwork.


 cthulhu2,  I have been taking fin for over 15 years and it has lost much of it's effectiveness.   My understanding is that while fin reduces DHT by up to 70%, there is still 30 % that over the years is gradually chipping away at your hair.  I believe this to be how my situation has worked. So if I have success I will know for sure that it is b/c of s-equol and not b/c of fin.  Of course, there might still be a dosage question since fin is taking out a good chunk of the DHT on its own.  I am not expecting substantial regrowth but if that did occur, I do have a before pic that I could use for comparison.  If I am rock solid sure that s-equol is only maintaining in 6 months to a year (there would be no real photographic evidence so it would be hard to prove maintenance), I will let everyone know..........it will just be my word and everyone can use that information as they see fit. FYI  In reviewing the research on fin, I note that shedding can occur for the first 3 to 6 months so there could be a big window of when you might expect to see results.  As I said in the beginning, this is an experiment.  I am coming up on three months.  

Also, I had not heard back from Nature's Sunshine on the "s" vs "r" equol issue so I emailed again yesterday and was told that before any label claim can be made whether it is S-Equol or R-Equol it has to be authorized by the legal department.  They said it should be another week before hearing back.

----------


## cthulhu2

> cthulhu2,  I have been taking fin for over 15 years and it has lost much of it's effectiveness.   My understanding is that while fin reduces DHT by up to 70%, there is still 30 % that over the years is gradually chipping away at your hair.  I believe this to be how my situation has worked. So if I have success I will know for sure that it is b/c of s-equol and not b/c of fin.  Of course, there might still be a dosage question since fin is taking out a good chunk of the DHT on its own.  I am not expecting substantial regrowth but if that did occur, I do have a before pic that I could use for comparison.  If I am rock solid sure that s-equol is only maintaining in 6 months to a year (there would be no real photographic evidence so it would be hard to prove maintenance), I will let everyone know..........it will just be my word and everyone can use that information as they see fit. FYI  In reviewing the research on fin, I note that shedding can occur for the first 3 to 6 months so there could be a big window of when you might expect to see results.  As I said in the beginning, this is an experiment.  I am coming up on three months.  
> 
> Also, I had not heard back from Nature's Sunshine on the "s" vs "r" equol issue so I emailed again yesterday and was told that before any label claim can be made whether it is S-Equol or R-Equol it has to be authorized by the legal department.  They said it should be another week before hearing back.


 Great, thanks for the info. The science between equol is legitimate as you've clearly shown, however my one concern is that no studies exist to show its effect on hairloss. I am hoping this is the case because equol cannot be patentedm

----------


## PinotQ

> Great, thanks for the info. The science between equol is legitimate as you've clearly shown, however my one concern is that no studies exist to show its effect on hairloss. I am hoping this is the case because equol cannot be patentedm


 In the end I quess nobody will know whether it works until some of us try.  I'm sure a few more will join in soon enough.  There are some limited trials on the other s-equol benefits such as for menopause, BHP, wrinkles and even metabolic syndrome but none it appears for hair loss.  To some extent, I  think legitimate research groups might steer away from the hair loss aspect in the beginning so they don't risk being associated with the snake oil persona that seems to be attracted to that industry, especially the more natural options.  I do think the patent question you raise is legitimate.  Lund, Setchall, etc. have a filed a patent that covers all of the above but it does not appear to be stopping Nature's Sunshine or Nature Made.  Not sure whether equol can be effectively patented and/or whether the manufacturing process can be patented.  I believe Nature Made and Lund, Setchall, etc have manufacturing process patents..........which could be why Nature's Sunshine won't disclose how their product is made.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> In the end I quess nobody will know whether it works until some of us try.  I'm sure a few more will join in soon enough.  There are some limited trials on the other s-equol benefits such as for menopause, BHP, wrinkles and even metabolic syndrome but none it appears for hair loss.  To some extent, I  think legitimate research groups might steer away from the hair loss aspect in the beginning so they don't risk being associated with the snake oil persona that seems to be attracted to that industry, especially the more natural options.  I do think the patent question you raise is legitimate.  Lund, Setchall, etc. have a filed a patent that covers all of the above but it does not appear to be stopping Nature's Sunshine or Nature Made.  Not sure whether equol can be effectively patented and/or whether the manufacturing process can be patented.  I believe Nature Made and Lund, Setchall, etc have manufacturing process patents..........which could be why Nature's Sunshine won't disclose how their product is made.


 
1. You can't patent equol, only the process. Similarly, you can't patent wind, but you can patent (or could have in the past) have patented a fan. Getting a patent is easy, enforcing it is difficult. It's still a point of interest but I wouldn't give it much weight in your final conclusion on this product.

2. I ordered some. I'm only taking one pill in the morning and one at night. I'm hoping for positive benefits you mention, and hopefully it at least keeps my hair healthy and scalp itch down. I'm not really expecting regrowth. I unfortunately wont be taking photos.

----------


## Adaku

Has anyone received a response on this?

I've decided it will be worth going the blood test route, as opposed to continuously spending ~$200/month on equol. This is my current plan:

1. Pay for the tests sometime around Friday, August 8
2. Stay off equol for two weeks, then take the test
3. Get back on equol at 18 mg 3 times per day, spread out over approximately 8 hours each dose. 
4. Wait 2 weeks, then take the second test

At that point, I'll put the results on here. It looks like it'll be sometime in September. I figure 18 mg should show a pretty significant change in DHT, and if not, the supplement is either ineffective or too expensive.

----------


## kmit028

> Has anyone received a response on this?
> 
> I've decided it will be worth going the blood test route, as opposed to continuously spending ~$200/month on equol. This is my current plan:
> 
> 1. Pay for the tests sometime around Friday, August 8
> 2. Stay off equol for two weeks, then take the test
> 3. Get back on equol at 18 mg 3 times per day, spread out over approximately 8 hours each dose. 
> 4. Wait 2 weeks, then take the second test
> 
> At that point, I'll put the results on here. It looks like it'll be sometime in September. I figure 18 mg should show a pretty significant change in DHT, and if not, the supplement is either ineffective or too expensive.


 This is a great approach

How much do you think blood tests will cost?

----------


## cthulhu2

> Has anyone received a response on this?
> 
> I've decided it will be worth going the blood test route, as opposed to continuously spending ~$200/month on equol. This is my current plan:
> 
> 1. Pay for the tests sometime around Friday, August 8
> 2. Stay off equol for two weeks, then take the test
> 3. Get back on equol at 18 mg 3 times per day, spread out over approximately 8 hours each dose. 
> 4. Wait 2 weeks, then take the second test
> 
> At that point, I'll put the results on here. It looks like it'll be sometime in September. I figure 18 mg should show a pretty significant change in DHT, and if not, the supplement is either ineffective or too expensive.


 This would be a great contribution to the hairloss community. It sounds like these tests would cost a total of 200 for both. Is there any way we can pitch in for this blood test as a group? If we can get like 20 people to do it the cost would only be 10 per person or so.

----------


## cthulhu2

If it does not lower his dht, I guess we can call shenanigans on Nature's Sunshine

----------


## redsiberian

This is the response I got from them regarding what's in their product:

Thank you for contacting us earlier this month about our Equolibrium.  Per Dr Tripp, it is naturally-occurring equol.  We are not specifying R or S.  Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with today.


Thank you,

Andrew H.
NSP Customer Service
1-800-223-8225

----------


## PinotQ

> This is the response I got from them regarding what's in their product:
> 
> Thank you for contacting us earlier this month about our Equolibrium.  Per Dr Tripp, it is naturally-occurring equol.  We are not specifying R or S.  Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with today.
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Andrew H.
> NSP Customer Service
> 1-800-223-8225


 This is a different response than I am getting.  I first contacted them on July 10 and they said they would contact the Health & Sciences department to get me the answer .................and then they said they had to get approval from the legal department.  Yesterday, they said they would follow up since I had still heard nothing.  This makes me a little skeptical. I told them I could see why they might need legal dept approval if I was asking whether the product had a particular effect or provided a particular benefit but I am only asking what exactly is in the product and I would think that would be a legal requirement.  

Does anyone know an independent lab that could test this?

----------


## Adaku

@kmit028: Somewhere between $300 - $400 overall I think is a good estimate. 

@cthulhu2: That's a possibility -- I'd contribute to more stuff like this if we had a good way to fund it. In this case, I'll get the tests and put the results on here, then if anyone wants to, they can contribute retroactively. 

@regarding emails: I'm not surprised about the lack of useful email responses. I sent one too, and I did not receive a reply. At this point, I'm almost certain it is racemic equol (R and S). There seem to be enough studies that use racemic equol, so I'm pretty sure it's not a safety issue. The questions I have now are: 1. Does it mitigate DHT as well as pure S-equol would? 2. Is the equol product of a good quality?

----------


## cthulhu2

> @kmit028: Somewhere between $300 - $400 overall I think is a good estimate. 
> 
> @cthulhu2: That's a possibility -- I'd contribute to more stuff like this if we had a good way to fund it. In this case, I'll get the tests and put the results on here, then if anyone wants to, they can contribute retroactively. 
> 
> @regarding emails: I'm not surprised about the lack of useful email responses. I sent one too, and I did not receive a reply. At this point, I'm almost certain it is racemic equol (R and S). There seem to be enough studies that use racemic equol, so I'm pretty sure it's not a safety issue. The questions I have now are: 1. Does it mitigate DHT as well as pure S-equol would? 2. Is the equol product of a good quality?


 It's a shame that the only way we can know if the product does what it is intended is to do blood work or independent lab tests, which likely are more expensive than blood tests and are probably more difficult to obtain.

----------


## PinotQ

> @kmit028: Somewhere between $300 - $400 overall I think is a good estimate. 
> 
> @cthulhu2: That's a possibility -- I'd contribute to more stuff like this if we had a good way to fund it. In this case, I'll get the tests and put the results on here, then if anyone wants to, they can contribute retroactively. 
> 
> @regarding emails: I'm not surprised about the lack of useful email responses. I sent one too, and I did not receive a reply. At this point, I'm almost certain it is racemic equol (R and S). There seem to be enough studies that use racemic equol, so I'm pretty sure it's not a safety issue. The questions I have now are: 1. Does it mitigate DHT as well as pure S-equol would? 2. Is the equol product of a good quality?


 Interestingly, I emailed a few independent testing labs yesterday and one of them replied that "We do provide a wide scope of nutritional supplement testing including antioxidant analysis and biological function evaluation, however, our equal analysis does not offer separation and quantification of s-equol and r-equol, respectively. I don’t know if other labs offer this service either." 

I asked for pricing anyway.

----------


## PinotQ

> This is the response I got from them regarding what's in their product:
> 
> Thank you for contacting us earlier this month about our Equolibrium.  Per Dr Tripp, it is naturally-occurring equol.  We are not specifying R or S.  Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with today.
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Andrew H.
> NSP Customer Service
> 1-800-223-8225


 A quick google of r-equol would seem to indicate that if Nature's Sunshine's equol is of plant origin it is r-equol.  It would also appear that r-equol also has a high binding affinity to DHT.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-equol  Equol is a compound that can exist in two forms, known as the enantiomers S-(-) equol and R-(+)equol, which means the compounds mirror each other, just as a person's left hand mirrors the right hand. Both forms are of interest from a medical and pharmacological perspective and are under development as nutraceutical and pharmacological agents for the treatment of a number of hormone-related conditions.[6] However, only S-equol is produced in humans and animals with the ability to produce equol after soy isoflaovone consumption. S-Equol [7-hydroxy-3-(49-hydroxyphenyl)-chroman] is not of plant origin. It is a metabolite of the soy isoflavone daidzein. S-equol thus is characterized as an isoflavan.[7] In contrast, R-equol is not made in humans, but can be chemically synthesized, such as in the laboratory.[8] The molecular and physical structure of S-equol is similar to that of estradiol, the naturally occurring main sex hormone found in women.[9]

http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4   In brief, the present results demonstrate that equol: a) (R- and/or S-isomeric mixtures) has high binding affinity for 5α-DHT making it a potent selective androgen modulator (SAM),

----------


## cthulhu2

bumpety

----------


## Adaku

I have purchased the first blood test, and I'll be taking it in roughly a couple weeks. I think I'll have the complete results of both tests sometime in the second half of September.

----------


## PinotQ

> I have purchased the first blood test, and I'll be taking it in roughly a couple weeks. I think I'll have the complete results of both tests sometime in the second half of September.


 Great!  Keep us posted.  I finally heard back from Nature's Sunshine about their product and got a similar response as another poster above: " the equol in the Equolibrium is natural occurring equol. We are not making a claim or specifying whether it’s R or S."  I find this disappointing since what is in the product is not a "claim" it should be a fact: It's either "S" or "R" or a combination of both. Given the lack of clarity, I will renew my effort to find an independent lab that can test the Nature's Sunshine product to verify potency and the exact composition of the equol.

----------


## cthulhu2

> Great!  Keep us posted.  I finally heard back from Nature's Sunshine about their product and got a similar response as another poster above: " the equol in the Equolibrium is natural occurring equol. We are not making a claim or specifying whether it’s R or S."  I find this disappointing since what is in the product is not a "claim" it should be a fact: It's either "S" or "R" or a combination of both. Given the lack of clarity, I will renew my effort to find an independent lab that can test the Nature's Sunshine product to verify potency and the exact composition of the equol.


 I don't believe there is a need for independent lap testing if Adaku is going to get the blood work taken. Whether it is r-equol or s-equol doesn't matter if the product has a measurable effect on serum DHT.

----------


## PinotQ

> I don't believe there is a need for independent lap testing if Adaku is going to get the blood work taken. Whether it is r-equol or s-equol doesn't matter if the product has a measurable effect on serum DHT.


 I would agree if I were 100% confident that each capsule has 6mg of equol since both s & r equol bind to DHT with about the same high affinity.  However, it bothers me that Nature's Sunshine can't say exactly what is in their product.  And because they say that it comes from a natural source, I am further skeptical because the only natural source of equol I am aware of is possibly white cabbage.  And I believe the amounts found in white cabbage are very minimal.  Not sure how they would extract that. So the bottom line for me is that I want to have piece of mind that I am taking what I think I am taking and in consistent amounts.  I applaud Adaku, but if his tests show zero to minimal results, it could either be b/c equol doesn't work in vivo as anticipated or b/c it's not really equol or that the quality is poor to very inconsistent.  One other point from my research is that I believe that s-equol binds to the estrogen B receptor whereas r-equol binds to the estrogen A receptor.  Not sure exactly what the significance is but I thought that estrogen B receptors where prevalent in the scalp and follicles and that this was thought to be a dual benefit of s-equol.  As far as I know, equol is the only new possibility for shutting down hair loss in the immediate future.   It is available now (if Nature's Sunshine is legitimate) or soon thru Nature Made as there is no FDA timeline and there is legitimate reasonable science behind it.  So if I am going to experiment, I am going all in and prefer to cover all of the bases. I am not saying that Nature's Sunshine is not legitimate but I would like to eliminate the doubt they have created.

----------


## cthulhu2

> I would agree if I were 100% confident that each capsule has 6mg of equol since both s & r equol bind to DHT with about the same high affinity.  However, it bothers me that Nature's Sunshine can't say exactly what is in their product.  And because they say that it comes from a natural source, I am further skeptical because the only natural source of equol I am aware of is possibly white cabbage.  And I believe the amounts found in white cabbage are very minimal.  Not sure how they would extract that. So the bottom line for me is that I want to have piece of mind that I am taking what I think I am taking and in consistent amounts.  I applaud Adaku, but if his tests show zero to minimal results, it could either be b/c equol doesn't work in vivo as anticipated or b/c it's not really equol or that the quality is poor to very inconsistent.  One other point from my research is that I believe that s-equol binds to the estrogen B receptor whereas r-equol binds to the estrogen A receptor.  Not sure exactly what the significance is but I thought that estrogen B receptors where prevalent in the scalp and follicles and that this was thought to be a dual benefit of s-equol.  As far as I know, equol is the only new possibility for shutting down hair loss in the immediate future.   It is available now (if Nature's Sunshine is legitimate) or soon thru Nature Made as there is no FDA timeline and there is legitimate reasonable science behind it.  So if I am going to experiment, I am going all in and prefer to cover all of the bases. I am not saying that Nature's Sunshine is not legitimate but I would like to eliminate the doubt they have created.


 It is odd that they won't specify whether it is s or r equol. It really shouldn't be a legal issue as to tell their customers whether the product is r or s, since the customers have a right to know. It must be some sort of inconsistent mixture between the two. Naturemade's product is called s equol, which is very clear to the customer in terms of what they are getting. I think independent lab testing would be great but I assume it would be much more expensive than a blood test. I think the chance that Adaku gets a bad batch of the supplement is probably very rare.

----------


## cthulhu2

> It is odd that they won't specify whether it is s or r equol. It really shouldn't be a legal issue as to tell their customers whether the product is r or s, since the customers have a right to know. It must be some sort of inconsistent mixture between the two. Naturemade's product is called s equol, which is very clear to the customer in terms of what they are getting. I think independent lab testing would be great but I assume it would be much more expensive than a blood test. I think the chance that Adaku gets a bad batch of the supplement is probably very rare.


 As a side note, stinky tofu has a very high amount of s equol and could be where they are extracting it from.

----------


## PinotQ

> As a side note, stinky tofu has a very high amount of s equol and could be where they are extracting it from.


 Thanks  I hope so......I just saw that after I posted.  Here's the link to this 2014 research:  http://file.scirp.org/Html/1-1980115_42404.htm#ref88  The article says that "activation of ER-α leads to aberrant proliferation, inflammation, and the development of premalignant lesions, while, in contrast, the activation of ER-β is critical in prostatic stromal-epithelial cell signaling and mediates anti-proliferative effects that balance the proliferative action of androgens on epithelial cells [4]"  What this seems to mean is that only estrogen B is beneficial to BHP and if Nature's Sunshine is beneficial for BHP, either their equol is s-equol or r-equol binds to the estrogen b receptor just like s-equol.  Anyway, if you know of a lab that will do independent lab testing let me know.  I am on my 5th try so far with no luck.

----------


## Adaku

I also like the idea of an independent lab test. It'd be nice to have confirmation on what it actually is, regardless of whether it works. 

However, Nature's Sunshine states on their website that "Nature’s Sunshine’s Equolibrium uses a nature-identical source of equol derived from non-GMO daidzein." So we know where it is coming from, but what it ends up as is not that clear.

----------


## PinotQ

> I also like the idea of an independent lab test. It'd be nice to have confirmation on what it actually is, regardless of whether it works. 
> 
> However, Nature's Sunshine states on their website that "Nature’s Sunshine’s Equolibrium uses a nature-identical source of equol derived from non-GMO daidzein." So we know where it is coming from, but what it ends up as is not that clear.


 The description on the website differs somewhat from the one used in responding to my email: "the equol in the Equolibrium is natural occurring equol."  Hard to say but you would think they could be a little more direct and exacting.  At any rate, please let me know if you find any independent labs that might be able to perform testing.  As you may recall, the original response I received from Nature Made when they delayed their launch of s-equol was that there were quality control issues in the manufacture of the product.  So it would be nice to know for sure that Nature's Sunshine has that under control.

----------


## Gronholm

Hey guys!

Maybe I’m gone make a very stupid point… but since unlike other DHT blockers equol does not prevent the production of DHT but only binds it directly… It’s not possible DHT levels on the body appear to be the same on a blood test?  

Thanks for your comments

----------


## Gronholm

> Hey guys!
> 
> Maybe I’m gone make a very stupid point… but since unlike other DHT blockers equol does not prevent the production of DHT but only binds it directly… It’s not possible DHT levels on the body appear to be the same on a blood test?  
> 
> Thanks for your comments


 Any thoughts on the above?

I’m planning to jump in myself and going for the blood tests, but before I would like to be sure this is the right approach.

Thanks

----------


## PinotQ

> Any thoughts on the above?
> 
> I’m planning to jump in myself and going for the blood tests, but before I would like to be sure this is the right approach.
> 
> Thanks


 I think your point is a good one.  My guess is that it depends on exactly what type of test you have done.  I know from the studies that they can measure bound and unbound DHT.  But not sure if that type of test is available to an individual consumer, at least at a reasonable price.

----------


## balding1983

Hi,
I've been lurking around the forum for a while and have read this thread with a lot of interest.
Firstly, I want to thank members like PinotQ and Adaku for testing this.

Adaku, I have a question about the blood tests you plan on taking. My understanding of the pharmacology of equol was that it binds to DHT to inactivate it. I thought it has no impact on the total concentration of the hormone but only its efficacy?

----------


## balding1983

Apologies, to explain further I thought that there was no way to test active vs inactive (equol bound) DHT.

----------


## Gronholm

I've made a bit of research, and in almost every case of study that has been done on equol says that the serum DHT levels were reduced... My understanding is that ones inactivated it would no longer keep it's original composition so it should not appear as DHT on a blood test.

What do you guys think?

----------


## brunobald

Gronholm, if inactivated and no longer appearing on test as dht I would say it is no better than fin in terms of both hairloss prevention and side effects?

Unless of course you can apply it locally to the follicle. Or prevent it entering the prostate area somehow.

----------


## cthulhu2

> Gronholm, if inactivated and no longer appearing on test as dht I would say it is no better than fin in terms of both hairloss prevention and side effects?
> 
> Unless of course you can apply it locally to the follicle. Or prevent it entering the prostate area somehow.


 DHT is mainly involved in physical sex characteristics; the main issue with finasteride is 5 alpha reductase inhibition. finasteride modifies a lot of important neurosteroids(roughly 30 or so) to varying degrees in individuals and is believed to be why some experience cognitive/sexual side effects. This is why Equol is the ideal dht inhibitor/binder

----------


## Adaku

I think Gronholm and cthulhu2 covered the other questions pretty well.

I've taken the first blood test. I'll begin taking equolibrium again starting tomorrow.

----------


## cthulhu2

> I think Gronholm and cthulhu2 covered the other questions pretty well.
> 
> I've taken the first blood test. I'll begin taking equolibrium again starting tomorrow.


 I applaud your work adaku, it will be nice to finally have an answer to the equol theories/rumors.

----------


## bananana

I'll post it here, instead of opening new thread:

I'm interested in ordering equol in bulk, because 60 pills would last me a mere 15 days (if taken appropriate dosage), and cost way too much,
for a sustainable treatment ($35 per box + at least $20 shipping). Therefore I'm looking to team up with someone willing to create a members account @ NS, because members get 35% discount, and I believe further discounts might be possible if taken bulk. I'm looking to buy a years supply.

...and something interesting I've found - chinese bulk equol, said to be for "medicine" use, therefore probably usable for oral consumption? What do you guys think? Worth checking out?

tnx

----------


## Sammygirl

I guess only time will tell if equol turn out to be yet another expensive disappointment.

----------


## bananana

> I'll post it here, instead of opening new thread:
> 
> I'm interested in ordering equol in bulk, because 60 pills would last me a mere 15 days (if taken appropriate dosage), and cost way too much,
> for a sustainable treatment ($35 per box + at least $20 shipping). Therefore I'm looking to team up with someone willing to create a members account @ NS, because members get 35% discount, and I believe further discounts might be possible if taken bulk. I'm looking to buy a years supply.
> 
> ...and something interesting I've found - chinese bulk equol, said to be for "medicine" use, therefore probably usable for oral consumption? What do you guys think? Worth checking out?
> 
> tnx


 UPDATE:
I've got news, I found chinese manufacturer of >99% pure equol, they're selling a kilo for $1000+ ballpark.
Is anyone interested in sharing the expenses (and goods), and/or does anyone have info on a lab that can analyse a sample? 

tnx

----------


## Adaku

First results are back (no equol): DHT 44 ng/dL. That looks like it's in the normal range, but I can't get anything about specifics for age. I'm in my early 20s. Does anyone have a reference range?

I'll be taking the next test within a couple of weeks.

----------


## Adaku

> UPDATE:
> I've got news, I found chinese manufacturer of >99% pure equol, they're selling a kilo for $1000+ ballpark.
> Is anyone interested in sharing the expenses (and goods), and/or does anyone have info on a lab that can analyse a sample? 
> 
> tnx


 I understand trying to buy in bulk to keep the price down like that. I'm skeptical of the quality of the equol coming from China though. I'd definitely have it analysed if you're going to purchase it. It looks like PinotQ might've found a lab that'll test equol (not specific to R or S) that you might give a try, but I don't know what the name is.

----------


## tom vercetti

Im not sure why you guys are looking for s equol instead of 8-PN. First its not a synthetic molecule but an extract and second its in my opinion far more powerful to "lock" DHT... I would be cool to have a topical formula containing 8-PN

----------


## PinotQ

> I understand trying to buy in bulk to keep the price down like that. I'm skeptical of the quality of the equol coming from China though. I'd definitely have it analysed if you're going to purchase it. It looks like PinotQ might've found a lab that'll test equol (not specific to R or S) that you might give a try, but I don't know what the name is.


 I actually having a very hard time finding a company to analyze the equol.  My most recent inquiry this week has not drawn a response.

----------


## cthulhu2

> First results are back (in lo equol): DHT 44 ng/dL. That llike it's in the normal range, but I can't get anything about specifics for age. I'm in my early 20s. Does anyone have a reference range?
> 
> I'll be taking the next test within a couple of weeks.


 I recall reading that dht levels are higher in our 20's, which is why finasteride is typically more effective for ppl in their late thirties and early 40's. I too couldnt find age groups and average dht levels unfortunately.

----------


## balding1983

Getting a hold of 'Equolibrium' in Europe will be a problem.

----------


## PinotQ

> First results are back (no equol): DHT 44 ng/dL. That looks like it's in the normal range, but I can't get anything about specifics for age. I'm in my early 20s. Does anyone have a reference range?
> 
> I'll be taking the next test within a couple of weeks.


 I found this link stating that the normal male serum range of dht is between 29 and 90 ng/dl.....but it is not age specific.  So you are below the average.  http://www.gdx.net/core/sample-repor...ple-Report.pdf

I wonder when you take your follow up test if there is an option to test for serum levels of equol?

----------


## PinotQ

FYI  The doctor I consult with on hairloss who has 20 years of experience says that if equol works it will likely follow a timeline similar to finesteride.  He says that in his experience, most patients notice a cessation in shedding by 3-4 months.  Any thickening would show up by 6-9 months.  He says that areas with more hair will likely show thinning as hairs that are being affected by DHT will shed.  So you will likely take a step back in cosmetic appearance first.  He also said that very thin areas where you can see thru to the scalp will likely show improvement first b/c the newer thicker hairs will not be hidden as much by surrounding hair.

----------


## bananana

Hi Guys (again).
I'll be ordering 100+ grams of equol shortly. Chinese company sent me a scan of Certificate of Analysis showing all green lights,
but of course - I need to run it by some independent lab (hard to find, unfortunately).

Another question - how do you take the powder? They say it's safe mixing it with water and drinking, but is there a more efficient way?
How do I know what amount will be absorbed by the body?
Or should I just take a shitload of it (like 0.5-1 grams daily) and hope at least 0.01 pushes through?

Your opinions?

Tnx

----------


## PinotQ

> First results are back (no equol): DHT 44 ng/dL. That looks like it's in the normal range, but I can't get anything about specifics for age. I'm in my early 20s. Does anyone have a reference range?
> 
> I'll be taking the next test within a couple of weeks.


 FYI  DHT levels:   http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...erone_Free.pdf

----------


## PinotQ

> FYI  DHT levels:   http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...erone_Free.pdf


  Also, here is a place that tests for free DHT as opposed to total DHT:  http://www.anylabtestnow.com/tests/d...rone-dht-test/

----------


## balding1983

Hi PinotQ,
Have you noticed any effect from taking Equol? I noticed that you have been taking it for more than 6 months since you started in February this year.

----------


## Adaku

Thanks for the info PinotQ. Unfortunately, I won't have an option to test for serum equol or free DHT with the tests that I'm using (LifeExtension, ~$130/each), but the results should be valid. Finasteride users usually notice a total DHT difference between tests, so I expect the same of equol. 

I've got the second test purchased, so I'll be scheduling an appoint for either this coming Friday or the next. Results should be in a week following the blood draw date. I'll update once I've taken the blood draw.

----------


## PinotQ

> Thanks for the info PinotQ. Unfortunately, I won't have an option to test for serum equol or free DHT with the tests that I'm using (LifeExtension, ~$130/each), but the results should be valid. Finasteride users usually notice a total DHT difference between tests, so I expect the same of equol. 
> 
> I've got the second test purchased, so I'll be scheduling an appoint for either this coming Friday or the next. Results should be in a week following the blood draw date. I'll update once I've taken the blood draw.


 Great!  After the issue was raised about free vs. total DHT, I have been looking into it a little more and decided I may as well do some testing myself.  I could not find anyone that tested for serum equol but I tested yesterday for Free DHT (not cheap) and Free and Total Testosterone and SHBG.  I should have the results early this week and will update once I know.

----------


## Artista

Great info' PinotQ - thanks my friend!

----------


## ItchForTheCure

Hey guys,

I've been taking 54mg equol daily for about a month now and I would like to share what I have experienced so far.

Observation List
1. Scalp itch was reduced significantly 
2. Soreness/pimples on my scalp disappeared within a few days
3. Slight tingling sensation on testicle every now  and then (no other sides, everything else is functioning just fine)
4. Noticed significant increase in hair shedding about 2 weeks in (from 7 hairs in bathroom sink to 100+)

I have taken .25mg propecia once at the start of the year and I was impacted by massive sides within 8 hours so I think I'm hypersensitive to that stuff and didn't fully recover until 6 weeks after. What's interesting with equol is that I haven't had any sides from it. My hair is a lot thinner due to the ongoing hair shed.

Hopefully other people find this useful. I'll post updates if I notice any changes.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> Observation List
> 3. Slight tingling sensation on testicle every now  and then (no other sides, everything else is functioning just fine)
> 4. Noticed significant increase in hair shedding about 2 weeks in (from 7 hairs in bathroom sink to 100+)


 
same here on 3 and 4.. and I only take one pill in am and one at night. Possible some effects on the prostate too

----------


## PinotQ

> Hi PinotQ,
> Have you noticed any effect from taking Equol? I noticed that you have been taking it for more than 6 months since you started in February this year.


 I just passed the 4 month mark....not 6.  I cannot confirm one way or the other just yet.   As I mentioned above, the doctor I consult with says that shedding should subside in 3 to 4 months and that any thickening would likely not be visible for 6 to 9 months.   My hair is thinner now than when I started but that could either be b/c it is working or b/c it is not working.  I have not experienced any noticeable side effects.

----------


## PinotQ

> Hey guys,
> 
> I've been taking 54mg equol daily for about a month now and I would like to share what I have experienced so far.
> 
> Observation List
> 1. Scalp itch was reduced significantly 
> 2. Soreness/pimples on my scalp disappeared within a few days
> 3. Slight tingling sensation on testicle every now  and then (no other sides, everything else is functioning just fine)
> 4. Noticed significant increase in hair shedding about 2 weeks in (from 7 hairs in bathroom sink to 100+)
> ...


 Please keep us posted.  I think the shedding is a great sign and I find this very useful.  I will do the same.  Are you taking your equol 2 or 3 times per day?

----------


## PinotQ

> Great info' PinotQ - thanks my friend!


  Great to hear from you Artista!  I hope all is well and I will keep you posted on any progress.

----------


## FearTheLoss

excited to see your DHT results pinotq..

----------


## ItchForTheCure

> Please keep us posted.  I think the shedding is a great sign and I find this very useful.  I will do the same.  Are you taking your equol 2 or 3 times per day?


 I'm taking it 3 times per day. Good to see other people shedding on this stuff. It's quite depressing to see so much hair in the sink, but I guess the hair cycle is getting synchronized due to the sudden reduction in DHT?

----------


## bananana

> Hi Guys (again).
> I'll be ordering 100+ grams of equol shortly. Chinese company sent me a scan of Certificate of Analysis showing all green lights,
> but of course - I need to run it by some independent lab (hard to find, unfortunately).
> 
> Another question - how do you take the powder? They say it's safe mixing it with water and drinking, but is there a more efficient way?
> How do I know what amount will be absorbed by the body?
> Or should I just take a shitload of it (like 0.5-1 grams daily) and hope at least 0.01 pushes through?
> 
> Your opinions?
> ...


 Anybody?
Tnx

----------


## PinotQ

I received the results of my total DHT test back today.  My serum level is 7.6 ng/dl and flagged as low.  The report says the normal range for an adult male is between 30 and 85.

My SHGB was 35.3 nmol/L with the normal range for an adult male between 19.3 and  76.4.  I wanted to check my SHGB levels b/c Equol also binds to SHGB...........and SHGB is a good thing as it binds to DHT and testosterone.  But my SHGB appears to be very normal.

I will post my Free DHT levels once I receive that test.  Approximately 1% of DHT is typically the amount that circulates unbound according to this link: http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...erone_Free.pdf

So equol appears to be doing it's job as the research indicates that it would and the product appears to be the real deal. But keep in mind that I am taking 48 mg 3 times per day for a total of 144 mg per day.  I have zero noticeable side effects except for fewer wrinkles around my eyes.  It definitely has a positive effect on your skin.  

Also, keep in mind that these results don't necessarily mean that this will have a positive impact on either maintaining or regrowing some hair.  But I will let you know once I am confident enough to make a call one way or the other!

----------


## balding1983

> I received the results of my total DHT test back today.  My serum level is 7.6 ng/dl and flagged as low.  The report says the normal range for an adult male is between 30 and 85.
> 
> My SHGB was 35.3 nmol/L with the normal range for an adult male between 19.3 and  76.4.  I wanted to check my SHGB levels b/c Equol also binds to SHGB...........and SHGB is a good thing as it binds to DHT and testosterone.  But my SHGB appears to be very normal.
> 
> I will post my Free DHT levels once I receive that test.  Approximately 1% of DHT is typically the amount that circulates unbound according to this link: http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...erone_Free.pdf
> 
> So equol appears to be doing it's job as the research indicates that it would and the product appears to be the real deal. But keep in mind that I am taking 48 mg 3 times per day for a total of 144 mg per day.  I have zero noticeable side effects except for fewer wrinkles around my eyes.  It definitely has a positive effect on your skin.  
> 
> Also, keep in mind that these results don't necessarily mean that this will have a positive impact on either maintaining or regrowing some hair.  But I will let you know once I am confident enough to make a call one way or the other!


 Hi,
That is very encouraging news indeed. However, I still I don't understand how the DHT levels will be reduced with equol. Are you taking Finasteride as well? By the way did you check your PSA level? Because if this is low then we know you are reducing the amount of DHT that is bioavailable to effect the prostate primarily and also our hair follicles. 

I have a question though. Why are you taking so much a day?
You initially posted the possible dosing levels where we have to achieve a plasma level of approximately 100 nmol to achieve 100% binding of DHT. (https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...t=11378&page=2)

The half life of equol is roughly 8 hours. Theoritically, would we not be able to take for example 30 mg twice a day as the graph seems to suggest that the plasma levels remain above the required level for at least 12 hours. 

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/.../F2.medium.gif

----------


## cthulhu2

> I received the results of my total DHT test back today.  My serum level is 7.6 ng/dl and flagged as low.  The report says the normal range for an adult male is between 30 and 85.
> 
> My SHGB was 35.3 nmol/L with the normal range for an adult male between 19.3 and  76.4.  I wanted to check my SHGB levels b/c Equol also binds to SHGB...........and SHGB is a good thing as it binds to DHT and testosterone.  But my SHGB appears to be very normal.
> 
> I will post my Free DHT levels once I receive that test.  Approximately 1% of DHT is typically the amount that circulates unbound according to this link: http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...erone_Free.pdf
> 
> So equol appears to be doing it's job as the research indicates that it would and the product appears to be the real deal. But keep in mind that I am taking 48 mg 3 times per day for a total of 144 mg per day.  I have zero noticeable side effects except for fewer wrinkles around my eyes.  It definitely has a positive effect on your skin.  
> 
> Also, keep in mind that these results don't necessarily mean that this will have a positive impact on either maintaining or regrowing some hair.  But I will let you know once I am confident enough to make a call one way or the other!


 That's fantastic news! If Adaku's results come back the same we should without a doubt know Nature'sSunshine is legitimate. I think we can safely assume this is type II DHT that is being inhibited, since it makes up the vast majority of DHT.

----------


## ItchForTheCure

> I received the results of my total DHT test back today.  My serum level is 7.6 ng/dl and flagged as low.  The report says the normal range for an adult male is between 30 and 85.
> 
> My SHGB was 35.3 nmol/L with the normal range for an adult male between 19.3 and  76.4.  I wanted to check my SHGB levels b/c Equol also binds to SHGB...........and SHGB is a good thing as it binds to DHT and testosterone.  But my SHGB appears to be very normal.
> 
> I will post my Free DHT levels once I receive that test.  Approximately 1% of DHT is typically the amount that circulates unbound according to this link: http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...erone_Free.pdf
> 
> So equol appears to be doing it's job as the research indicates that it would and the product appears to be the real deal. But keep in mind that I am taking 48 mg 3 times per day for a total of 144 mg per day.  I have zero noticeable side effects except for fewer wrinkles around my eyes.  It definitely has a positive effect on your skin.  
> 
> Also, keep in mind that these results don't necessarily mean that this will have a positive impact on either maintaining or regrowing some hair.  But I will let you know once I am confident enough to make a call one way or the other!


 Wow you just replicated the DHT reduction of Fin and Dut without any sides? That's impressive. I'm just wondering if taking 144mg is completely overkill or not. Didn't the patent call for .2mg to .5mg per 1kg of body weight per day?

Adaku what amount of equol are you taking daily? It'll be interesting to see the difference in DHT reduction.

I was pretty sure Nature's Sunshine equol was the real thing. I looked up the company's financials and they are publicly traded with a market cap in excess of 200million. No way they'll risk their business reputation on shoddy products.

----------


## hairbackpls

These news made me smile :'D hope it works.

----------


## PinotQ

> Wow you just replicated the DHT reduction of Fin and Dut without any sides? That's impressive. I'm just wondering if taking 144mg is completely overkill or not. Didn't the patent call for .2mg to .5mg per 1kg of body weight per day?
> 
> Adaku what amount of equol are you taking daily? It'll be interesting to see the difference in DHT reduction.
> 
> I was pretty sure Nature's Sunshine equol was the real thing. I looked up the company's financials and they are publicly traded with a market cap in excess of 200million. No way they'll risk their business reputation on shoddy products.


 The patent does call for a low end of .2mg and a high end of .5mg per kg of body weight so my dosage may well be overkill but I wanted to leave no room for doubt, especially given the fact that 10 times the high end is seen in natural equol producers with no side effects.   For my body weight, to maintain a .5mg level in my bloodstream, I would need just over 44mg per dose.  Given the 8 hour half life, that means that by mid-day, I am down to 22mg in my bloodstream.  So I take 8 pills (48mg) 3 times per day.  I created a spreadsheet and after 1 week of dosing at this level, the minimum in my bloodstream at any time is 48mg (or the patent high end).  Just after any dose, the level shoots up to 96mg........8 hours later falling to 48mg just before the next dose.

Keep in mind, I am likely in a little different boat here than most of you.  I have been using Finasteride for years and it no longer maintains.  So my goal here is not just to reduce my DHT but to get it as close to zero as possible.........knowing that people lacking DHT do not continue to bald.  This also means that my reduction to 7.6 isn't all equol as finasteride is also at work.  But 7.6 is a 75% reduction from the minimum adult male range an 87% drop from the average and a 91% drop from the high adult male range.   Also remember that my reduction is in total DHT.  My reduction in free DHT is still unknown.  Also note that finasteride reduces scalp DHT somewhat less than serum DHT.  I have no way of knowing how much equol has reduced my scalp DHT. However, given that DHT is very active in the skin and scalp, this could be  a big wild card.

----------


## balding1983

I see. 
Well, we are both in the same position. Unfortunately, testing one's DHT (free or otherwise) levels while taking Finasteride won't be of much use. All we will prove is that Finasteride is working as it should to reduce the DHT levels. I don't equol in its self will reduce DHT levels:
http://www.biolreprod.org/content/70/4/1188.long

What we need is someone who isn't taking any meds to check their DHT and PSA before and after equol and document their progress with hair over at least 6 months. 

Also I don't think we can assume the plasma level of equol is exactly 50% of the oral dose at 8 hours because it assumes 100% absorption. I don't think it is. I extrapolated the dosing from the graph I posted earlier. 

Anyone taking equol on its own?

----------


## Avaholic1921

Hey guys, I have been interested in equol for awhile now and Have seen all the studies. I just wanted to give my experience.   I have been taking the natures sunshine product for 5 months now. Unfortunately my financial situation has only allowed me to take the recommended dose of 2 pills per day(12mg).

Since my hairloss has been very slow, it's hard to say what kind of progress I have been getting. my hairline is NW 2-2.5 and the last few years it has started to diffuse thin all over the top. My girlfriend thinks it looks a little thicker and I have noticed those tiny vellus hairs in and around my hairline like I got when I took propecia for 6 months a few years ago.

I think I am going to up my dosage to 3 pills a day(18mg) for the next few months just to have a more constant supply in my bloodstream(if that's even enough). It doesn't feel like it's getting any worse so if it just maintains I will be happy.    I am also using nizoral shampoo 1%

I will keep you updated if you want. thanks guys!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> The patent does call for a low end of .2mg and a high end of .5mg per kg of body weight so my dosage may well be overkill but I wanted to leave no room for doubt, especially given the fact that 10 times the high end is seen in natural equol producers with no side effects.   For my body weight, to maintain a .5mg level in my bloodstream, I would need just over 44mg per dose.  Given the 8 hour half life, that means that by mid-day, I am down to 22mg in my bloodstream.  So I take 8 pills (48mg) 3 times per day.  I created a spreadsheet and after 1 week of dosing at this level, the minimum in my bloodstream at any time is 48mg (or the patent high end).  Just after any dose, the level shoots up to 96mg........8 hours later falling to 48mg just before the next dose.
> 
> Keep in mind, I am likely in a little different boat here than most of you.  I have been using Finasteride for years and it no longer maintains.  So my goal here is not just to reduce my DHT but to get it as close to zero as possible.........knowing that people lacking DHT do not continue to bald.  This also means that my reduction to 7.6 isn't all equol as finasteride is also at work.  But 7.6 is a 75% reduction from the minimum adult male range an 87% drop from the average and a 91% drop from the high adult male range.   Also remember that my reduction is in total DHT.  My reduction in free DHT is still unknown.  Also note that finasteride reduces scalp DHT somewhat less than serum DHT.  I have no way of knowing how much equol has reduced my scalp DHT. However, given that DHT is very active in the skin and scalp, this could be  a big wild card.


 Okay, so your testing is rather useless for us as you're on finasteride. 


We need someone to test before and after that isn't on any other meds that would have an effect on DHT.

----------


## cthulhu2

> Okay, so your testing is rather useless for us as you're on finasteride. 
> 
> 
> We need someone to test before and after that isn't on any other meds that would have an effect on DHT.


 That's right, I totally forgot pinot was on finasteride. Guess we'll have to rely more on the blood work from adaku since he is only on equol.

----------


## balding1983

Taking equol to 'completely' sequester ALL plasma DHT will be both impractical in terms of cost and efficacy. Furthermore, its not wise to block DHT completely. People seem to think its only role in the body is to make our prostate increase in size and cause MPB. Its mediates a significant portion of the things testosterone controls particularly in the Central Nervous System.

I'm interested in Equol because I need something to reduce the effect of the approximately 30% DHT that Finasteride doesn't block and the evidence is there it indeed does it. So, we don't need to take astronomically high doses of the stuff if we are taking Finasteride. My plan (if I can get a hold of it in Europe) is to use it has a means of reducing the dose of Finasteride to 0.5 mg a day.

----------


## thechamp

Do you guys think if I take equol will it Lower my serum dht?, because when I take fin I get rapid weight gain do you think the same thing will happen with equol ??

----------


## balding1983

> Hey guys, I have been interested in equol for awhile now and Have seen all the studies. I just wanted to give my experience.   I have been taking the natures sunshine product for 5 months now. Unfortunately my financial situation has only allowed me to take the recommended dose of 2 pills per day(12mg).
> 
> Since my hairloss has been very slow, it's hard to say what kind of progress I have been getting. my hairline is NW 2-2.5 and the last few years it has started to diffuse thin all over the top. My girlfriend thinks it looks a little thicker and I have noticed those tiny vellus hairs in and around my hairline like I got when I took propecia for 6 months a few years ago.
> 
> I think I am going to up my dosage to 3 pills a day(18mg) for the next few months just to have a more constant supply in my bloodstream(if that's even enough). It doesn't feel like it's getting any worse so if it just maintains I will be happy.    I am also using nizoral shampoo 1%
> 
> I will keep you updated if you want. thanks guys!


 Hi,
Yes, keep us updated!

----------


## balding1983

Did some more reading.

It was mentioned earlier in this thread and in a patent application that you need "0.2 mg/Kg - 0.5 mg/Kg" in the body to block DHT. The authors who wrote that patent have not cited any evidence which backs up that claim. To be honest it's almost impossible to achieve if you look at the graph I posted earlier because 0.2 mg = 200000 ng and we now that 30 mg of equol reaches a maximum serum level of 1200 ng / L.

There are very few human studies involving equol but I found these two which were done in 2009 and 2013. 
http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperIn...0#.VB1eQ_ldWuB
http://www.nature.com/pcan/journal/v...an200910a.html

Both studies suffer the same advantage of lacking high numbers of participants. The older used 60 mg of isoflavone (we don't know if t was equol) while the recent study used a 6mg dose of equol twice a day containing a propriety blend of R and S ( ? similar to the Natures sunshine product). However it is very interesting that both studies found that DHT levels dropped by approximately 20%. 

Considering the fact that equol is found naturally and the fact that it is found in much higher concentrations in equol-producers it should be a safe supplement especially for those on Finasteride to block any remaining DHT and with a relatively small dose. For those not taking a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor will obviously have to take a lost more. 

Personally, I take 1 mg of Finasteride a day. If I can get a hold of equol in the UK I plan on taking 1 tablet twice and see how I respond.

----------


## ItchForTheCure

> Did some more reading.
> 
> It was mentioned earlier in this thread and in a patent application that you need "0.2 mg/Kg - 0.5 mg/Kg" in the body to block DHT. The authors who wrote that patent have not cited any evidence which backs up that claim. To be honest it's almost impossible to achieve if you look at the graph I posted earlier because 0.2 mg = 200000 ng and we now that 30 mg of equol reaches a maximum serum level of 1200 ng / L.
> 
> There are very few human studies involving equol but I found these two which were done in 2009 and 2013. 
> http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperIn...0#.VB1eQ_ldWuB
> http://www.nature.com/pcan/journal/v...an200910a.html
> 
> Both studies suffer the same advantage of lacking high numbers of participants. The older used 60 mg of isoflavone (we don't know if t was equol) while the recent study used a 6mg dose of equol twice a day containing a propriety blend of R and S ( ? similar to the Natures sunshine product). However it is very interesting that both studies found that DHT levels dropped by approximately 20%. 
> ...


 You need to take about 50mg of equol daily for it to have any material impact on DHT levels. Preferably 100mg would be better to smooth out the concentration in your blood, but that gets expensive. You should keep in mind that equol was prohibitively expensive a few years ago and now the costs have come down. I expect the costs to further come down as more people become aware of the benefits of equol.

While I'm taking 54mg equol daily in the hopes to maintain my hair, I have noticed it has greatly reduced the wrinkles on my forehead and nearly removed the bags under my eyes after 5 weeks. That alone is going to have a huge impact on the market size for this product when more people become aware of it. Hopefully the costs will come down so much that it's priced like standard vitamins and we can take 300mg daily to achieve our objectives without the sides of Fin/Dut.

----------


## Adaku

Just an update -- I've taken the second blood test, so I should get the results probably on Monday, September 29.

----------


## cthulhu2

> Just an update -- I've taken the second blood test, so I should get the results probably on Monday, September 29.


 Sounds good! By the way, how many mg of Equol are you taking?

----------


## thechamp

Does any body know users like me and cob984 both gain weight from finestride will we gain weight from equol??

----------


## cthulhu2

> Does any body know users like me and cob984 both gain weight from finestride will we gain weight from equol??


 Weight gain was not one of the side effects observed during the finasteride trials. It could be just your metabolism slowing down, which is normal with age.

----------


## thechamp

> Weight gain was not one of the side effects observed during the finasteride trials. It could be just your metabolism slowing down, which is normal with age.


 Your wrong it's an increase in estrogen some people take a steroid armidex with finestride to reduce this side effect!!,

----------


## thechamp

Call out to cob984 man I know you gain weight from fin like me have you tried equol ??

----------


## balding1983

So I've been in contact with Natures sunshine Europe to try and get it on the 'allowed list' to be imported here. Unfortunately, it will take several weeks for their legal departments to check its ok to be imported to the UK. 

If you're interested in having this product in Europe, please email them to let them know of your interest. If we can generate enough interest I suspect we will be able to expedite its approval here. The email address can be found in their UK website. 

The attraction of this product is that its naturally occurring and provides consistent blocking of DHT at relatively low doses. Any one taking Finasteride should consider taking this as well because we know that even 5 mg of Finasteride only blocks approximately 70% of DHT and even less in the scalp. This is the reason Finasteride only slows hair loss. I've been looking at decreasing the level of DHT over and above that from a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor alone. I have been reluctant to start Dutasteride. 

The second advantage of equol is that its been shown to reduce the expression (reduce the numbers) of DHT receptors in the prostate. There are no studies looking at scalp DHT receptors but I suspect it will have a similar effect there.

----------


## hairbackpls

Any updates hmm?

----------


## PinotQ

My *Free DHT* results are back:  This test was performed on a different day with a different lab:  Total DHT was 9 (vs. the 7.6 on the previous test)
Free DHT was at .66: Normal Adult Male Range 1-6.2 pg/ml.   So that is a 34% reduction from the low normal range and about a 90% reduction from the high normal range.  

My understanding is that finasteride works by inhibiting testosterone from being converted to DHT thus lowering total levels of DHT.  Equol, on the other hand, is supposed to bind to DHT thus lowering Free DHT.  However, some of the equol research seems to indicate that equol also lowers total DHT.  My total DHT seems to reflect an increased reduction in total DHT over what you might expect from finasteride alone as the max reduction I could find in the clinical trials I looked at was about 72% and my reduction was about 75% but from the low range. Nonetheless, I could just be a good responder to finasteride so you can't draw any real conclusions.   However, since finasteride is not known to bind to DHT, I think it highly likely that my reduction in Free DHT is directly a result of equol.  I believe Free DHT is supposed to average about 1% of total DHT whether you are at normal or finasteride reduced levels of DHT.  But I'll get some clarification on this from my doctor who will give me a more expert opinion on the test results.  I'll keep you posted.

----------


## burtandernie

Wait so your posting this while you currently taking finasteride and this equol stuff? What is even the point if your on finasteride of course thats whats doing it.

----------


## Adaku

Disappointing news, my blood test results are work:

No Equol: DHT 44 ng/dL
48 MG Equol: DHT 41 ng/dL

Only a three ng/dL difference in total DHT. This would make sense with PinotQ's total DHT results, as the 144mg he was taking would reduce his levels by about ~10 ng/dL, putting his finasteride-only levels around ~17 ng/dL. PinotQ, any thoughts on the results?

I'm thinking that the equol works, but it'd be prohibitively expensive. I'd think you'd need at least 250 mg daily to have an effect that'd come close to fin. That'd be just about $30/day, or about $900/month perpetually, which isn't worth it in my opinion.

----------


## bananana

> Disappointing news, my blood test results are work:
> 
> No Equol: DHT 44 ng/dL
> 48 MG Equol: DHT 41 ng/dL
> 
> Only a three ng/dL difference in total DHT. This would make sense with PinotQ's total DHT results, as the 144mg he was taking would reduce his levels by about ~10 ng/dL, putting his finasteride-only levels around ~17 ng/dL. PinotQ, any thoughts on the results?
> 
> I'm thinking that the equol works, but it'd be prohibitively expensive. I'd think you'd need at least 250 mg daily to have an effect that'd come close to fin. That'd be just about $30/day, or about $900/month perpetually, which isn't worth it in my opinion.


 Nobody commented my last few posts...

I'm going all in.
I'm ordering 100 grams of pure equol from china. I'll be taking around 0.5-1 gram DAILY, (that is 15-20x what you guys are taking - but I dont know how much of that will absorb) Anyhow, I expect that to last me 4+ months, I should see some results by then.

----------


## Adaku

> Nobody commented my last few posts...
> 
> I'm going all in.
> I'm ordering 100 grams of pure equol from china. I'll be taking around 0.5-1 gram DAILY, (that is 15-20x what you guys are taking - but I dont know how much of that will absorb) Anyhow, I expect that to last me 4+ months, I should see some results by then.


 If it is pure equol, it will probably absorb well enough. Have you had any luck finding a lab to test the purity? 
In any case, keep us updated on your results.

----------


## PinotQ

> Disappointing news, my blood test results are work:
> 
> No Equol: DHT 44 ng/dL
> 48 MG Equol: DHT 41 ng/dL
> 
> Only a three ng/dL difference in total DHT. This would make sense with PinotQ's total DHT results, as the 144mg he was taking would reduce his levels by about ~10 ng/dL, putting his finasteride-only levels around ~17 ng/dL. PinotQ, any thoughts on the results?
> 
> I'm thinking that the equol works, but it'd be prohibitively expensive. I'd think you'd need at least 250 mg daily to have an effect that'd come close to fin. That'd be just about $30/day, or about $900/month perpetually, which isn't worth it in my opinion.


 Adaku,  The thing I am not clear about is what effect equol has on serum DHT.  The studies show that equol reduces serum DHT.  It sounds like they are referring to total DHT in those studies but can't be sure.  And my total DHT levels seem unusually low for just finasteride but this may or may not have anything to do with equol.  Equol's mechanism of action is to bind to DHT as opposed to preventing testosterone from being converted to DHT.  I'm not an endocrinologist but that would seem to mean that total DHT would be lowered by finasteride but not by equol and that Free DHT would be lowered by equol yet unaffected by finasteride.  I'm just speculating but if this is in fact what is happening, then the dosage of equol that I am taking reduced my Free DHT by somewhere between 34 and 90%.  Your variation in total DHT from 44 to 41 may amount to nothing more than normal day to day variation just as my total DHT was 7.6 vs. 9 in the 2 tests I took.  But that doesn't mean that your Free DHT hasn't been reduced.  One of the reasons that I decided to take the Free DHT test was Gronholms post above questioning whether a total DHT test is capable of measuring the effect of equol.  I think his logic makes a lot of sense.  You might consider taking a Free DHT test although it runs about $290.  I am coming up on the 5 month mark next week so I hope to be able to give an opinion, in just over a month, on what effect I think equol is having on my hair.

----------


## bananana

> If it is pure equol, it will probably absorb well enough. Have you had any luck finding a lab to test the purity? 
> In any case, keep us updated on your results.


 No luck with lab, most of them are like "we do only scientific work here etc", if someone finds the lab,
I'll be glad to send a gram. 

Anyhow, I'll take a pretty big dosage so we'll see what happens

----------


## Gari Baldi

> Disappointing news, my blood test results are work:
> 
> No Equol: DHT 44 ng/dL
> 48 MG Equol: DHT 41 ng/dL
> 
> Only a three ng/dL difference in total DHT. This would make sense with PinotQ's total DHT results, as the 144mg he was taking would reduce his levels by about ~10 ng/dL, putting his finasteride-only levels around ~17 ng/dL. PinotQ, any thoughts on the results?
> 
> I'm thinking that the equol works, but it'd be prohibitively expensive. I'd think you'd need at least 250 mg daily to have an effect that'd come close to fin. That'd be just about $30/day, or about $900/month perpetually, which isn't worth it in my opinion.


 Your test results are not relevant. Contrarily to fin, Equol is NOT supposed to lower your total DHT. What it does is it binds to it, thus not allowing it to become free DHT and preventing it to bind to receptor sites.

I think most people who have tried Equol in the past have not been sticking to it long enough. Like fin, it could take close to a year before you start getting results.

----------


## Gari Baldi

> Free DHT would be lowered by equol yet unaffected by finasteride.


 Actually Finasteride lowers the production of all DHT, free DHT included.

----------


## Adaku

Hm, unfortunately I cannot afford a free DHT blood test at the moment. Does anyone else here have any plans to test that (in absence of anything else that might lower it)? 
I'll try to take a look at some studies later to see what they're measuring for DHT to verify it one way or another. The logic for free DHT does make sense. 

I'm planning to continue at least for the next few months on Nature's Sunshine equol at the same dosage in any case, so I will keep everyone updated as well.

----------


## burtandernie

Why would you not get sides like fin unless it doesnt do anything? I dont get how lowering DHT a different way is going to avoid the sides but im not sure it even lowers DHT. Why distinguish between free and total DHT both act locally on the hair follicles right?

----------


## ItchForTheCure

The sides are most likely the result of neurosteroids being inhibited by blocking the enzyme 5 alpha reductase. Fin/Dut reduces DHT by this process. Equol allows DHT to be produced normally, but just simply binds to it like SHBG. By taking equol you are simply introducing more ways for DHT to get bound before reaching an androgen receptor.

Unless someone does a proper pre/after equol free DHT test we aren't going to know. All we'll have is people simply reporting back after being on equol for 5 months+.

----------


## kmit028

> Hm, unfortunately I cannot afford a free DHT blood test at the moment. Does anyone else here have any plans to test that (in absence of anything else that might lower it)? 
> I'll try to take a look at some studies later to see what they're measuring for DHT to verify it one way or another. The logic for free DHT does make sense. 
> 
> I'm planning to continue at least for the next few months on Nature's Sunshine equol at the same dosage in any case, so I will keep everyone updated as well.


 Hey man,
Can you comment on any side effects that you may have experienced? Specifically limp dick or libido? (its what we all wanna know  :Confused: )

----------


## HairIsLife

> The sides are most likely the result of neurosteroids being inhibited by blocking the enzyme 5 alpha reductase.


 All the more reason why it's not worth taking. Blocking the body's natural function to save some hair ? No thanks.

----------


## brunobald

What do you guys think about crowd funding Adaku's free dht test. It would be a scientific move in the right direction and well worth doing as this could benefit us all.

----------


## thechamp

Why hasn't any one tried s equol topically ??

----------


## balding1983

There is a clinical study which I posted earlier which found a drop in DHT. I couldn't really understand how this was brought about knowing the mode of action of equol. 
In general testing testosterone and DHT levels to see if its working is not reliable because both tend to fluctuate significantly day-to-day. 
A more accurate way of seeing if equol is having an effect is to monitor the PSA. That way, it wouldn't matter what your total OR Free DHT is as we will have an indication of the level of effect any available DHT would be having. PSA will fall with equol as it inhibit the growth of the prostate like Finasteride. 

I'm still keen to try high dose equol for at least. Can I ask if there are any who are interested in trying this Europe of UK to please contact Nature's sunshine. I already have and it is a long process to get legal permission from the NS (US). Hopefully, the process can be expedited if more people show interest.

----------


## PinotQ

> There is a clinical study which I posted earlier which found a drop in DHT. I couldn't really understand how this was brought about knowing the mode of action of equol. 
> In general testing testosterone and DHT levels to see if its working is not reliable because both tend to fluctuate significantly day-to-day. 
> A more accurate way of seeing if equol is having an effect is to monitor the PSA. That way, it wouldn't matter what your total OR Free DHT is as we will have an indication of the level of effect any available DHT would be having. PSA will fall with equol as it inhibit the growth of the prostate like Finasteride. 
> 
> I'm still keen to try high dose equol for at least. Can I ask if there are any who are interested in trying this Europe of UK to please contact Nature's sunshine. I already have and it is a long process to get legal permission from the NS (US). Hopefully, the process can be expedited if more people show interest.


 In looking back over the research studies, including the one you posted, all 3 appear to be indicating a decrease in total serum DHT, as opposed to free DHT.  In the study you posted I noticed  that it says: "The free testosterone level showed a significant decrease in the equol producers".  This is first first time I have seen this and it would seem to suggest that equol also binds to testosterone.  If that is correct, then maybe there is less testosterone available to be converted to DHT thus lowering total DHT levels.

Also, note this study which shows that equol did not affect PSA levels: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hsa043010.php

----------


## burtandernie

The reason propecia causes sides though is the drop in DHT as the result of lowering the enzyme. Equol is just getting the same result a different way your still going to get the same sides because you have significantly less DHT. Its going to do the same thing as propecia except its less proven

----------


## cthulhu2

> The reason propecia causes sides though is the drop in DHT as the result of lowering the enzyme. Equol is just getting the same result a different way your still going to get the same sides because you have significantly less DHT. Its going to do the same thing as propecia except its less proven


 Apprently you did not see Itch's post about this so I'll elaborate. 5 alpha reductase is not only responsible for dht production but production of several neurosteroids that are involved in sex drive and behavior. Finasteride has a very variable effect on the production of these neurosteroids, which is why some people are totally fine on the drug while others experience unpleasant sides. Equol is optimal because it does not inhibit 5 alpha reductase. Here is a reference study:
Prague Med Rep. 2009;110(3):222-30.

Finasteride treatment and neuroactive steroid formation.
Dusková M1, Hill M, Hanus M, Matousková M, Stárka L.
Author information
Abstract
Finasteride is the 5alpha-reductase inhibitor that received clinical approval for the treatment of human benign prostate hyperplasia and androgenetic alopecia. The 5alpha-reductase is enzyme responsible for the reduction of testosterone to dihydrostestosterone, progesterone to dihydroprogesterone and deoxycorticosterone to dihydrodeoxycorticosterone, steroids modulating the action of gamma-aminobutyric acid on GABA receptors. These neuroactive steroids possess anticonvulsant, antidepressant and anxiolytic effects. The objective of the study was to determine the effect of finasteride therapy on a broad steroid spectrum in men with benign prostate hyperplasia. A group of 20 men with benign prostate hyperplasia was involved in the present study. Finasteride in the daily dose of 5 mg/day was administrated for 4 months. In all individuals, their hormonal profile of steroid hormones was determined before and after 4 months lasting finasteride treatment. Finasteride treatment resulted in a significant decrease all alpha-reduced and increase of most 5beta-reduced metabolites of testosterone and progesterone as well as in an increase of 7alpha-hydoxyderivatives, which are known as neuroactive steroids acting by modulation of GABAA and NMAD receptors in the brain. In the course of finasteride treatment the decrease of the concentration of circulating steroids with known inhibitory activity on GABA-ergic excitation in the brain is very probably an important factors contributing to the development of the symptoms of depression seen in some isolated cases of finasteride administration.

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## HARIRI

Just to make it short and clear. Has anyone experienced sexual sides like loss of libido and soft erections with taking S-EQUOL? Hope you guys give us a clearer picture.

----------


## yayay

Any safe source available to buy s-equol ?

----------


## yayay

After some researches I might have found something, contact me on hercules7491@hotmail.com 

btw this is not a scam, I'm just a guy who thinks S-equol could be a great way to help hairloss.

----------


## thechamp

> Apprently you did not see Itch's post about this so I'll elaborate. 5 alpha reductase is not only responsible for dht production but production of several neurosteroids that are involved in sex drive and behavior. Finasteride has a very variable effect on the production of these neurosteroids, which is why some people are totally fine on the drug while others experience unpleasant sides. Equol is optimal because it does not inhibit 5 alpha reductase. Here is a reference study:
> Prague Med Rep. 2009;110(3):222-30.
> 
> Finasteride treatment and neuroactive steroid formation.
> Dusková M1, Hill M, Hanus M, Matousková M, Stárka L.
> Author information
> Abstract
> Finasteride is the 5alpha-reductase inhibitor that received clinical approval for the treatment of human benign prostate hyperplasia and androgenetic alopecia. The 5alpha-reductase is enzyme responsible for the reduction of testosterone to dihydrostestosterone, progesterone to dihydroprogesterone and deoxycorticosterone to dihydrodeoxycorticosterone, steroids modulating the action of gamma-aminobutyric acid on GABA receptors. These neuroactive steroids possess anticonvulsant, antidepressant and anxiolytic effects. The objective of the study was to determine the effect of finasteride therapy on a broad steroid spectrum in men with benign prostate hyperplasia. A group of 20 men with benign prostate hyperplasia was involved in the present study. Finasteride in the daily dose of 5 mg/day was administrated for 4 months. In all individuals, their hormonal profile of steroid hormones was determined before and after 4 months lasting finasteride treatment. Finasteride treatment resulted in a significant decrease all alpha-reduced and increase of most 5beta-reduced metabolites of testosterone and progesterone as well as in an increase of 7alpha-hydoxyderivatives, which are known as neuroactive steroids acting by modulation of GABAA and NMAD receptors in the brain. In the course of finasteride treatment the decrease of the concentration of circulating steroids with known inhibitory activity on GABA-ergic excitation in the brain is very probably an important factors contributing to the development of the symptoms of depression seen in some isolated cases of finasteride administration.


  Will I still gain weight in a eqoul?

----------


## cthulhu2

.

----------


## thechamp

> .


 I gain weight with fin so I wonder if I I'll gain weight with eqoul

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## cthulhu2

> I gain weight with fin so I wonder if I I'll gain weight with eqoul


 At this point, it doesn't really make sense to take equol based on the DHT findings of Adaku, unless you plan on spending $900 a month or whatever it costs to take 100+mg a day of Equol from Nature's Sunshine.

----------


## PinotQ

> At this point, it doesn't really make sense to take equol based on the DHT findings of Adaku, unless you plan on spending $900 a month or whatever it costs to take 100+mg a day of Equol from Nature's Sunshine.


 cthulhu2,  I'm not sure what to make of it all but I agree that $900 a month is far out of the ballpark.  I have been doubling back on the research when I have time and when you look at Adaku's and my test results, it's not apparent that equol is doing anything, even at my dose.  I wasn't really expecting my total dht to show a drop when I took my test given it's mechanism of action so I was pleasantly surprised to find that it I showed a 75% drop from the low adult male range.  But after looking at some of the equol studies, they clearly show that equol causes a drop in total serum dht.....and at low dosages (I believe 3mg per day was mentioned in one of them).   Adaku's test showed such a small drop that, given natural fluctuations, cannot definitively be attributed to equol.  Given that I am on finasteride, my total dht results are more opaque.  I initially assumed a 75% drop from the low end of the range was confirmation of at least some type of positive result b/c when I looked at a number of finasteride trials, the highest drop I saw was a 72% drop and I assumed that was a drop from somewhere near the average normal range.  But I have since seen a finasteride study that quantified results, not by percentage, but by average ng/dl in the blood stream.  And the average was 9.6 ng/dl.  Effectively, this would mean that my total DHt results show no more of a change attributable to equol than Aaku's.  Still there is the issue of Free DHT where the research has shown that equol does the brunt of its work.  With respect to Free DHT, I assumed that my low test result was due to equol but that too is unclear.  While finasteride lowers total DHT rather than binding to Free DHT, that doesn't mean (as pointed out above by Gari Baldi) that finasteride doesn't lower Free DHT b/c if SHBG remains at normal levels, SHBG could be binding to more of the Free DHT as a percentage of total DHT.  Since this is all just a group experiment, I have decided that I am going off of equol for 1 to 2 weeks and then I will retest my Total and Free DHT and my SHGB.  I will remain on finasteride but this will definitely give me a good idea of what additional effect, if any, equol may be having since I have a good baseline.  This won't of course tell anything about dosage with respect to those not on finasteride.   If equol, is having an effect, I don't believe being off for 1 to 2 weeks will erase anything benefits that may have started to accrue over the last 5 months.

----------


## swissTemplez

We would need a bulk supplier and they in turn need a pretty advanced (expensive) lab to produce it.

I don't have high hopes here. It would be awesome though since EVERYONE would benefit from this, even people on fin/dut would get additional benefit.

----------


## PinotQ

> Disappointing news, my blood test results are work:
> 
> No Equol: DHT 44 ng/dL
> 48 MG Equol: DHT 41 ng/dL
> 
> Only a three ng/dL difference in total DHT. This would make sense with PinotQ's total DHT results, as the 144mg he was taking would reduce his levels by about ~10 ng/dL, putting his finasteride-only levels around ~17 ng/dL. PinotQ, any thoughts on the results?
> 
> I'm thinking that the equol works, but it'd be prohibitively expensive. I'd think you'd need at least 250 mg daily to have an effect that'd come close to fin. That'd be just about $30/day, or about $900/month perpetually, which isn't worth it in my opinion.


  Adaku,  I will have been off of equol for 2 weeks on friday when I will take my second DHT test.  I'm not expecting much of a change over baseline.  But given your unexpected results (and what I anticipate will be mine), I sent an email to one of the foremost equol experts that has authored many of the studies and is listed on some of the patents.  He sent me one of his most recent studies regarding equol and BHP.  One of the questions I asked was whether a DHT blood test would be capable of measuring what effect equol has on serum DHT.  He did not answer that directly but he sent me a recent study showing a 21% reduction in 5α-DHT was observed in the severely symptomatic group and here was no change in the moderately symptomatic group.  The study says that the reasons the moderately symptomatic men did not display any
alterations in 5α-DHT levels during the intervention were unknown.  He also said that the balance of total vs. free (T and/or DHT) represents a mechanism that may or may not change with equol dosing.  FYI  He did not recommend mega dosing for hair loss noting that taking such high doses may not be the best route to reach scalp follicles...........and suggesting that a topical application might be more effective.

----------


## bananana

> Adaku,  I will have been off of equol for 2 weeks on friday when I will take my second DHT test.  I'm not expecting much of a change over baseline.  But given your unexpected results (and what I anticipate will be mine), I sent an email to one of the foremost equol experts that has authored many of the studies and is listed on some of the patents.  He sent me one of his most recent studies regarding equol and BHP.  One of the questions I asked was whether a DHT blood test would be capable of measuring what effect equol has on serum DHT.  He did not answer that directly but he sent me a recent study showing a 21% reduction in 5α-DHT was observed in the severely symptomatic group and here was no change in the moderately symptomatic group.  The study says that the reasons the moderately symptomatic men did not display any
> alterations in 5α-DHT levels during the intervention were unknown.  He also said that the balance of total vs. free (T and/or DHT) represents a mechanism that may or may not change with equol dosing.  FYI  He did not recommend mega dosing for hair loss noting that taking such high doses may not be the best route to reach scalp follicles...........and suggesting that a topical application might be more effective.


 I'm ordering 100 grams today from a lab (they sent me a certificate) in china. I've got the high precision scale (0.01 gram) and I'll be taking 0.5 grams daily for 200 days straight. I'll document the process with pics (if anything is about to happen).

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I'm ordering 100 grams today from a lab (they sent me a certificate) in china. I've got the high precision scale (0.01 gram) and I'll be taking 0.5 grams daily for 200 days straight. I'll document the process with pics (if anything is about to happen).


 maybe you could use that vesapro vehicle to make a cream?

----------


## thechamp

So who's going to try topical s eqoul can we just Pop a few in minoxdill ?

----------


## bananana

> maybe you could use that vesapro vehicle to make a cream?


 Possible.
But right now I really want to get started with this. It's on its way from china as we speak.
I think 0.5 grams daily should show results, hopefully in 3 months.. I can make cream or sth with rest of it, or rather that electro device that puts it under skin.
Applying a creme every night is really pain in the 4ss, I'm on a managing position in the company and in contact with people all day long.

----------


## cthulhu2

> So who's going to try topical s eqoul can we just Pop a few in minoxdill ?


 depends on the molecular weight(Dalton). Typically, chemicals need to have a molecular weight of 500 Daltons or less to penetrate the skin.

----------


## PinotQ

> depends on the molecular weight(Dalton). Typically, chemicals need to have a molecular weight of 500 Daltons or less to penetrate the skin.


 The molecular weight of s-equol is 242.27 g/mol. Not sure exactly how the conversion works but I believe equol is well under 500 Daltons and is classified as a small molecule.  This link suggests 1 Dalton is equol to 1 g/mol: https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-knowle...ons-g-mol.html

----------


## NeedHairASAP

get some of desmond's vesapro creme and try it. Its like 20 bucks for a tube.

----------


## thechamp

Does any one think s eqoul will be effective as a topical and how would I make it in to a topical ?

----------


## ItchForTheCure

Hey guys,

So it has been about 2 months since I started taking 54mg equol per day. Here are some updates:

 I am still shedding like the family dog.
 The wrinkles on my forehead are nearly gone and my skin looks a lot smoother
 More importantly, I am seeing new hairs growing out on the front. Some of the hairs are vellus, but many of them appear to be terminal black hair coming out. The new hairs starting coming out about 1-2 weeks ago.

As for any sides I haven't experienced any. My body weight is unchanged and everything in the pants is functioning normally.

I'll update you guys again at the 3 month mark.

----------


## thechamp

> Hey guys,
> 
> So it has been about 2 months since I started taking 54mg equol per day. Here are some updates:
> 
>  I am still shedding like the family dog.
>  The wrinkles on my forehead are nearly gone and my skin looks a lot smoother
>  More importantly, I am seeing new hairs growing out on the front. Some of the hairs are vellus, but many of them appear to be terminal black hair coming out. The new hairs starting coming out about 1-2 weeks ago.
> 
> As for any sides I haven't experienced any. My body weight is unchanged and everything in the pants is functioning normally.
> ...


 Did you gain weight with propecia ? Because i did ?

----------


## kaz007

I guess the next step is for Adaaku and Itch to take a free DHT test. Adaaku, why don't you create a PayPal account and post the email address here? Each person giving $10 to $20 each should quickly get the test funded. Guys, skip that $6 Starbucks coffee a couple of times for science and your hair!

----------


## kaz007

> Did you gain weight with propecia ? Because i did ?


 From http://techtransfer.byu.edu/products...weight-control

"Equol is also involved in weight control, preventing obesity and stimulating fat (adipose) tissue loss."

----------


## ItchForTheCure

> Did you gain weight with propecia ? Because i did ?


 I didn't gain weight on propecia. I only took propecia once and experienced all the cognitive side effects and muscle weakness over night. I couldn't lift up my smart phone in the morning with one hand. I also lost the function what's in my pants for about 1.5 months. There might have been an "adjustment" period, but getting those sides made me drop it after one pill. I am totally fortunate I was able to make a full recovery. Guys those pills are no joke.

If equol was going to give me sides, I should have gotten them by now. I think this alone proves that equol works differently than propecia, aka doesn't mess with your neurosteriods. Whether it is working, I'll let time decide that.

----------


## bananana

> Hey guys,
> 
> So it has been about 2 months since I started taking 54mg equol per day. Here are some updates:
> 
>  I am still shedding like the family dog.
>  The wrinkles on my forehead are nearly gone and my skin looks a lot smoother
>  More importantly, I am seeing new hairs growing out on the front. Some of the hairs are vellus, but many of them appear to be terminal black hair coming out. The new hairs starting coming out about 1-2 weeks ago.
> 
> As for any sides I haven't experienced any. My body weight is unchanged and everything in the pants is functioning normally.
> ...


 Great post, keep updating us.
I'm waiting for mine to arrive.

----------


## brunobald

Im good for $10 to test free DHT in sombody using s-equol. 

This could be an effective treatment, judging by some of the comments it appears to do something. Tests show it does not effect serum DHT so the next logical step is to test free DHT. We complain about scientists but we rarely ever take things into our own hands, lets crowdfund this experiment, we are talking buttons to do this.

----------


## cthulhu2

> I guess the next step is for Adaaku and Itch to take a free DHT test. Adaaku, why don't you create a PayPal account and post the email address here? Each person giving $10 to $20 each should quickly get the test funded. Guys, skip that $6 Starbucks coffee a couple of times for science and your hair!


 I too would be happy to make a contribution in the name of science(bro science).

----------


## PinotQ

My second blood test is back.  As I am on Finasteride, my values don't have much relevance to those taking only equol, however, on a relative basis my results may give a few more clues as to what equol is doing. 

The normal ranges for each item are Total Testosterone 250-1100 ng/dl; Free Testosterone 35-155 pg/ml; Total DHT 30-85 ng/dl; Free DHT 1-6.2 pg/ml; SBHG 22-77 nmol/L

While I was on 144 mg per day of equol Total and Free Testosterone were 390 & 56.9 respectively; Total & Free DHT were 9 & .66 respectively; SBHG was 35.3 

After I  went off of equol for 14 days, Total and Free Testosterone were 627 (up 61%) & 114.3 (up 101%) respectively; Total & Free DHT were 12 (up 33%) & 1.012 (up 55%) respectively; SBHG was 41 (up 16%) 

On a percentage basis, equol appeared to have the most noticeable impact on Total and Free Testosterone . Not sure if that really means anything since the results remained In Range.

On a percentage basis, equol did appear to have a significant impact on Total and Free DHT.  However, given my numbers are either out of or at the low end of the normal range to begin with (because I am on Finasteride), I'm not sure how much that really means either.  Also, keep in mind that I am on a mega dose of equol.  Therefore, it may be that very large doses of equol are sequestering a relatively small amount of DHT.  It would be interesting to see the comparative impact on someone that is not on Finasteride.

Given what one of the patent holders told me (see post above), it may be that the most effective use of equol would indeed be as a topical.  I hope this helps.

----------


## bananana

I've started taking approx. 0.5 grams of equol daily. (2X 0.25 )
I have enough for 150-200 days. I'll give you my detailed report on any changes.

----------


## Shinobi

> My second blood test is back.  As I am on Finasteride, my values don't have much relevance to those taking only equol, however, on a relative basis my results may give a few more clues as to what equol is doing. 
> 
> The normal ranges for each item are Total Testosterone 250-1100 ng/dl; Free Testosterone 35-155 pg/ml; Total DHT 30-85 ng/dl; Free DHT 1-6.2 pg/ml; SBHG 22-77 nmol/L
> 
> While I was on 144 mg per day of equol Total and Free Testosterone were 390 & 56.9 respectively; *Total & Free DHT were 9 & .66 respectively*; SBHG was 35.3 
> 
> After I  went off of equol for 14 days, Total and Free Testosterone were 627 (up 61%) & 114.3 (up 101%) respectively; Total & Free DHT were 12 (up 33%) & 1.012 (up 55%) respectively; SBHG was 41 (up 16%) 
> 
> On a percentage basis, equol appeared to have the most noticeable impact on Total and Free Testosterone . Not sure if that really means anything since the results remained In Range.
> ...


  This is very interesting.. Balding people always have low level of serum DHT. Instead saliva DHT is very high. Thanks to share your result with us

----------


## NeedHairASAP

I'm trying to try it topically with Vesapro but I can't figure out how to get it

----------


## PinotQ

> I'm trying to try it topically with Vesapro but I can't figure out how to get it


 You might also think about trying it in a solution of ethyl alcohol and polypropylene glycol......i.e. the minoxidil formula.  I checked equol and it is soluble in alcohol at about about 48mg per ml.  10 mg per ml makes a 1% solution so I believe you could get close to a 5% solution of equol.  By my calculation, you would need about 24 pills per oz of alcohol.  I also checked and all of the ingredients in Natrue's Sunshine are not soluble in alcohol so that if you put 144 pills in 6 ounces of alcohol and let them sit for a few days, you should have close to a 5% solution......but you would need to cut it with propylene glycol or it would likely be too harsh on your hair and scalp.  You can google super zix where there is a guy who has been outlining instructions for mixing various topicals for years.

----------


## Shinobi

do we know the RBA (relative binding affinity) of equol on receptor ERa ? this can also induce catagen...

----------


## PinotQ

> do we know the RBA (relative binding affinity) of equol on receptor ERa ? this can also induce catagen...


 Shinobi,  That is a great question.  I have tried to do as much research as possible on the effects of estrogen on hair.  Surprisingly, there is much conflicting information on this. Here is some research on the binding affinity of s & r equol;

Competitive binding studies were used to assess the estrogenic properties of R- and S-equol. On the basis of the ability of R- and S-equol to compete with [3H]E2 in ER binding, their affinities for ERs translated in vitro were shown to be very different. S-equol showed the greatest affinity for ERβ (Ki = 0.73 ± 0.2 nmol/L), whereas its affinity for ERα (Ki = 6.41 ± 1 nmol/L) was relatively poor. In contrast, R-equol possessed only 4.8% and 25.0% as much relative binding affinity, respectively, for ERβ (Ki = 15.4 ± 1.3 nmol/L) and for ERα (Ki = 27.38 ± 3.8 nmol/L) as did S-equol. For comparison, 17β-estradiol binds ERα with a Kd of 0.13 nmol and ERβ with a Kd of 0.15 nmol. S-equol thus shows ER selectivity with a high affinity for ERβ, whereas R-equol can, at best, be classified as a weak estrogen.

WHere did you get your information on ERa's induction of catagen?

----------


## Shinobi

> Shinobi,  That is a great question.  I have tried to do as much research as possible on the effects of estrogen on hair.  Surprisingly, there is much conflicting information on this. Here is some research on the binding affinity of s & r equol;
> 
> Competitive binding studies were used to assess the estrogenic properties of R- and S-equol. On the basis of the ability of R- and S-equol to compete with [3H]E2 in ER binding, their affinities for ERs translated in vitro were shown to be very different. S-equol showed the greatest affinity for ERβ (Ki = 0.73 ± 0.2 nmol/L), whereas its affinity for ERα (Ki = 6.41 ± 1 nmol/L) was relatively poor. In contrast, R-equol possessed only 4.8% and 25.0% as much relative binding affinity, respectively, for ERβ (Ki = 15.4 ± 1.3 nmol/L) and for ERα (Ki = 27.38 ± 3.8 nmol/L) as did S-equol. For comparison, 17β-estradiol binds ERα with a Kd of 0.13 nmol and ERβ with a Kd of 0.15 nmol. S-equol thus shows ER selectivity with a high affinity for ERβ, whereas R-equol can, at best, be classified as a weak estrogen.
> 
> WHere did you get your information on ERa's induction of catagen?


 thanks for that study!

here we go: 

ndocrinology. 2005 Mar;146(3):1214-25. Epub 2004 Dec 9.
Hair cycle control by estrogens: catagen induction via estrogen receptor (ER)-alpha is checked by ER beta signaling.
Ohnemus U, Uenalan M, Conrad F, Handjiski B, Mecklenburg L, Nakamura M, Inzunza J, Gustafsson JA, Paus R.

Although 17beta-estradiol (E2) is recognized as a potent hair growth modulator, our knowledge of estrogen function, signaling, and target genes in hair biology is still very limited. Between the two recognized estrogen receptors (ERs), ER alpha and ER beta, only ER alpha had been detected in murine skin. Here we show that ER alpha, ER beta, and ER beta ins are all expressed throughout the murine hair cycle, both at the protein and RNA level, but show distinct expression patterns. We confirm that topical E2 arrests murine pelage hair follicles in telogen and demonstrate that E2 is a potent inducer of premature catagen development. The ER antagonist ICI 182.780 does not induce anagen prematurely but accelerates anagen development and wave spreading in female mice. ER beta knockout mice display accelerated catagen development along with an increase in the number of apoptotic hair follicle keratinocytes. This suggests that, contrary to previous concepts, ER beta does indeed play a significant role in murine hair growth control: whereas the catagen-promoting properties of E2 are mediated via ER alpha, ER beta mainly may function as a silencer of ER alpha action in hair biology. These findings illustrate the complexity of hair growth modulation by estrogens and suggest that one key to more effective hair growth manipulation with ER ligands lies in the use of selective ER alpha or -beta antagonists/agonists. Our study also underscores that the hair cycling response to estrogens offers an ideal model for studying the controls and dynamics of wave propagation in biological systems.

----------


## PinotQ

> thanks for that study!
> 
> here we go: 
> 
> ndocrinology. 2005 Mar;146(3):1214-25. Epub 2004 Dec 9.
> Hair cycle control by estrogens: catagen induction via estrogen receptor (ER)-alpha is checked by ER beta signaling.
> Ohnemus U, Uenalan M, Conrad F, Handjiski B, Mecklenburg L, Nakamura M, Inzunza J, Gustafsson JA, Paus R.
> 
> Although 17beta-estradiol (E2) is recognized as a potent hair growth modulator, our knowledge of estrogen function, signaling, and target genes in hair biology is still very limited. Between the two recognized estrogen receptors (ERs), ER alpha and ER beta, only ER alpha had been detected in murine skin. Here we show that ER alpha, ER beta, and ER beta ins are all expressed throughout the murine hair cycle, both at the protein and RNA level, but show distinct expression patterns. We confirm that topical E2 arrests murine pelage hair follicles in telogen and demonstrate that E2 is a potent inducer of premature catagen development. The ER antagonist ICI 182.780 does not induce anagen prematurely but accelerates anagen development and wave spreading in female mice. ER beta knockout mice display accelerated catagen development along with an increase in the number of apoptotic hair follicle keratinocytes. This suggests that, contrary to previous concepts, ER beta does indeed play a significant role in murine hair growth control: whereas the catagen-promoting properties of E2 are mediated via ER alpha, ER beta mainly may function as a silencer of ER alpha action in hair biology. These findings illustrate the complexity of hair growth modulation by estrogens and suggest that one key to more effective hair growth manipulation with ER ligands lies in the use of selective ER alpha or -beta antagonists/agonists. Our study also underscores that the hair cycling response to estrogens offers an ideal model for studying the controls and dynamics of wave propagation in biological systems.


 Thanks  I have seen that research.  Have you seen this letter to the editor of another significant study:  http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1.../5602254a.html.  I can't find the full text to the actual research article but much of the pertinent information is quoted in the letter. I'm not sure what to make of it all. There appears to be varying effects of estrogen based on sex and scalp location.  They suggest that, at least in women, "E2 inhibits hair shaft formation, thus lowering the rate of hair growth, i.e., how much new hair shaft is generated by the anagen hair bulb per time unit, yet prolongs anagen duration".  And they refer to a study on male frontotemporal scalp skin where they found that "Surprisingly, compared to the vehicle control, the hair shaft elongation of male frontotemporal scalp hair follicles was significantly stimulated by 1–100 nM E2 already as early as 1 d after the start of organ culture, and this stimulation became even more pronounced at the end of organ culture" and that "a slight, though not statistically significant, anagen-prolonging effect of E2 was seen in E2-treated test hair follicles as compared to vehicle controls".  They go on to say that "This is well in line with the ill-documented, but widely shared clinical experience of topically applied E2 on the male scalp in vivo (i.e., hair growth stimulation; Schumacher-Stock, 1981) and supports the anagen-prolonging effect of E2."  And what does this mean: "Our observation in a single, yet carefully analyzed male patient* raises five basic questions that must be addressed much more systematically by subsequent work on the effects of E2 on human hair growth in order to better explain the seemingly contradictory results obtained with occipital (Kondo et al, 1990;Nelson et al, 2003) versus frontotemporal scalp hair follicles"  Does this mean that E2 had inhibitory effects on occipital hair?

And see this study where genistein inhibited hair growth by approximately 60%.  http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1...ication_detail
Equol is a metabolite of diadzein and I don't believe genistein but given the research above I don't know what to make of it. Counter balancing this is the fact that 60% of Asians produce equol naturally and there are studies ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12269873) showing that Asians have a lower incidence of MPB.

I am very interested in your take on this.

----------


## PinotQ

> thanks for that study!
> 
> here we go: 
> 
> ndocrinology. 2005 Mar;146(3):1214-25. Epub 2004 Dec 9.
> Hair cycle control by estrogens: catagen induction via estrogen receptor (ER)-alpha is checked by ER beta signaling.
> Ohnemus U, Uenalan M, Conrad F, Handjiski B, Mecklenburg L, Nakamura M, Inzunza J, Gustafsson JA, Paus R.
> 
> Although 17beta-estradiol (E2) is recognized as a potent hair growth modulator, our knowledge of estrogen function, signaling, and target genes in hair biology is still very limited. Between the two recognized estrogen receptors (ERs), ER alpha and ER beta, only ER alpha had been detected in murine skin. Here we show that ER alpha, ER beta, and ER beta ins are all expressed throughout the murine hair cycle, both at the protein and RNA level, but show distinct expression patterns. We confirm that topical E2 arrests murine pelage hair follicles in telogen and demonstrate that E2 is a potent inducer of premature catagen development. The ER antagonist ICI 182.780 does not induce anagen prematurely but accelerates anagen development and wave spreading in female mice. ER beta knockout mice display accelerated catagen development along with an increase in the number of apoptotic hair follicle keratinocytes. This suggests that, contrary to previous concepts, ER beta does indeed play a significant role in murine hair growth control: whereas the catagen-promoting properties of E2 are mediated via ER alpha, ER beta mainly may function as a silencer of ER alpha action in hair biology. These findings illustrate the complexity of hair growth modulation by estrogens and suggest that one key to more effective hair growth manipulation with ER ligands lies in the use of selective ER alpha or -beta antagonists/agonists. Our study also underscores that the hair cycling response to estrogens offers an ideal model for studying the controls and dynamics of wave propagation in biological systems.


 Shinobi,  Here is a bit more on s-equol's binding affinity to ERa & ERb taken from Nature Made's website http://www.naturalequol.com/about.html :

S-equol Biological Activity

The molecular and physical structure of S-equol is similar to that of 17-estradiol, the naturally occurring main sex hormone found in women, also referred to as estrogen. When comparing their relative affinities to bind to the human estrogen receptor alpha (ERα) S-equol has only about 1 percent of the affinity possessed by 17-estradiol. S-equol has a stronger affinity for the human estrogen receptor beta (ERβ), yet this affinity is just 20 percent of estradiol's affinity for ERβ. The preferential binding of S-equol to ERβ, compared to ERα and to estradiol's, indicates that S-equol shares some, but not all, of the characteristics of a selective ER modulator (SERM).12

One question you might ask here is that if estrogen is a positive influence on hair, does s-equol put the brakes on that due to it's affinity for ERb and the silencing effect noted in your study.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

so equol is potentially bad for hair?

thanks for rundown on how to make a topical. I'd much rather use a creme than alcohol based vehicle... but we'll see.


I also noted that asian have low mpb rates and above average in ability to make equol naturally... nobody seemed to find this of any interest for some reason. I think I even made a separate post about it that elicited zero discussion.

----------


## PinotQ

> so equol is potentially bad for hair?
> 
> thanks for rundown on how to make a topical. I'd much rather use a creme than alcohol based vehicle... but we'll see.
> 
> 
> I also noted that asian have low mpb rates and above average in ability to make equol naturally... nobody seemed to find this of any interest for some reason. I think I even made a separate post about it that elicited zero discussion.


 I'm not sure what to read into all of the estrogen research.  Even the authors say it raises more questions than answers once again pointing to how very complicated hair growth is.  Despite the research highlighting various discoveries of the different pieces of the estrogen puzzle, they all seem to say the anecdotal evidence points to estrogen being a positive.  My guess is that on a clinical trial basis, they just don't know how it all works together.  I agree with you on the asian equol/mpb point.  I think it is telling in terms of safety and if equol were bad for hair, I doubt asians would have a much lower incidence of MPB. Also note here:  http://techtransfer.byu.edu/products...weight-control  where the lead researchers on this state that  "Equol also has an affinity for estrogen receptor subtypes that have positive influences on skin and hair."

----------


## Shinobi

> Thanks  I have seen that research.  Have you seen this letter to the editor of another significant study:  http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1.../5602254a.html.  I can't find the full text to the actual research article but much of the pertinent information is quoted in the letter. I'm not sure what to make of it all. There appears to be varying effects of estrogen based on sex and scalp location.  They suggest that, at least in women, "E2 inhibits hair shaft formation, thus lowering the rate of hair growth, i.e., how much new hair shaft is generated by the anagen hair bulb per time unit, yet prolongs anagen duration".  And they refer to a study on male frontotemporal scalp skin where they found that "Surprisingly, compared to the vehicle control, the hair shaft elongation of male frontotemporal scalp hair follicles was significantly stimulated by 1–100 nM E2 already as early as 1 d after the start of organ culture, and this stimulation became even more pronounced at the end of organ culture" and that "a slight, though not statistically significant, anagen-prolonging effect of E2 was seen in E2-treated test hair follicles as compared to vehicle controls".  They go on to say that "This is well in line with the ill-documented, but widely shared clinical experience of topically applied E2 on the male scalp in vivo (i.e., hair growth stimulation; Schumacher-Stock, 1981) and supports the anagen-prolonging effect of E2."  And what does this mean: "Our observation in a single, yet carefully analyzed male patient* raises five basic questions that must be addressed much more systematically by subsequent work on the effects of E2 on human hair growth in order to better explain the seemingly contradictory results obtained with occipital (Kondo et al, 1990;Nelson et al, 2003) versus frontotemporal scalp hair follicles"  Does this mean that E2 had inhibitory effects on occipital hair?
> 
> And see this study where genistein inhibited hair growth by approximately 60%.  http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1...ication_detail
> Equol is a metabolite of diadzein and I don't believe genistein but given the research above I don't know what to make of it. Counter balancing this is the fact that 60% of Asians produce equol naturally and there are studies ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12269873) showing that Asians have a lower incidence of MPB.
> 
> I am very interested in your take on this.


 Thanks PinotQ to had a look into this !

Yes equol is converted from daidzin after being converted in daidzein. But this doesnt change anythin their activity are very similar with genistein. 

Actually to date I still cant totally explain but it makes me understand why asian are less touched by MPB but are more willing to get diffuse and less hair per cm² (this is what i noticed during travels in asia, and confirmed in a global study saying less hair count for asian than occidental people). I was shocked by the number of people having diffuse, especially women.  
I think these phyto hormones dilute and compete both androgen and receptor which bring to less hair but also less androgen damage. 

In contradiction to the knows benefits of genistein there is the fact its a pro oxidant (stimulating nitrate synthesis) :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12720581   (but dont forget minoxidil does same (so my theory : give regrowth but kill these regrowth within some time)

more about this topic on endothelial cells and the release of Ca2+ from the endoplasmic reticulum :



Here you can see the difference between both ERa dominant and ERb dominant.

Also, genistein blocks formation of new blood vessels (antiangiogenic effect) in some kind of cells (inhibit growth factors > inhibit cell disivion and survival):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15302513

If you want to look further for the difference pathway between genistein and daidzein :



Regarding purely on the ERa : genistein is much more potent agonist than E2… even if less potent on the ERb : http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...ndo.138.3.4979 (do we need to make a perfect ratio ?)

Again is the ERa a good or a bad thing ? at the end all is a question of balance. The difference between vertex and frontal region still very strange to me. 

Anyway, im almost sure activate ERb still good, and we confirm that (less or more indeed) here :

Rβ-selective compounds suppressed the expression of cytokines and MMPs in activated keratinocytes and fibroblasts-based in vitro models of  photoaging. Further, in activated dermal fibroblasts, ERβ-selective compounds also  inhibited COX 2 

The full study : http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/co...62877.full.pdf

Furthermore a study showing a reverse of baldness and even more (regrowth) using estrogen therapy (mainly estradiol, estrone, coumadin, minoxidil) :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?t...ogen%20therapy

Come back to the ERa and b theory :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1815392/

this study explain that : «  Based on the ER distribution, ERβ binding is generally considered beneficial based on the relative tissue distributions of the two receptors (40,41). The red clover extract preferentially bound to the ERβ receptor nine-times greater than to ERα. The hop extract had nearly a two-fold preference for ERα compared with ERβ. Since all of these studies were carried out using cell-based assays with ERα positive cell lines, it is important to note that the hop and red clover extracts had equivalent ERα activity » 

also interesting because hops and especially his active 8PN are know to be good for hair and anti libido like :because its a *potent anti androgen* (so its molecular 3D structure) : 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14598215

8PN prevents the binding of DHT to its receptor and therefore inhibits its activity



While in opposition genistein was shown to have *no anti androgen activity*, i even read in a RU study that high dose of genistein has a slight but significant androgen activity ! 

Some others studies about estrogen therapy :

Topical application of 17beta-estradiol increases extracellular matrix protein synthesis by stimulating tgf-Beta signaling in aged human skin in vivo.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15955089

Influence of estrogens on the androgen metabolism in different subunits of human hair follicles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11358723

17alpha-estradiol induces aromatase activity in intact human anagen hair follicles ex vivo.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190948

----------


## PinotQ

Shinobi,  Great research although I can't say I fully understand it all.  You are way more versed on the science of this than I am so in the end are you thinking equol is a positive for hair in that it binds to the ERb receptor and handcuffs DHT?  That is a very interesting fact you point out about Asians having less hair per CM..........do you think that equol may have the effect of maintaining hair against DHT yet causing less density?

Thanks again!  I have tried sparking an estrogen discussion in the past to no avail.

----------


## Shinobi

> Shinobi,  Great research although I can't say I fully understand it all.  You are way more versed on the science of this than I am so in the end are you thinking equol is a positive for hair in that it binds to the ERb receptor and handcuffs DHT?  That is a very interesting fact you point out about Asians having less hair per CM..........do you think that equol may have the effect of maintaining hair against DHT yet causing less density?
> 
> Thanks again!  I have tried sparking an estrogen discussion in the past to no avail.


 Yes If you can supplement yourself with the molecule S equol it will be definitely a good thing in many ways: increase in vivo SHBG and the hormonal profile in a good way, block 5AR, stimulate hyaluronic acid etc etc.. 

But the positiv result seen will come with the dosage, you have to found out the perfect dosage, to get both side free and get maximum result. In chemistry its always about dosage and concentration. I noticed if indeed phyto oestrogen (and this can include the activity of the equol) are washed from the blood very fast especially in men, their activity at the receptor level stay longer (maybe a few days, this data i do not have), so i think once a day s equol is enough and have to be tested in different dosage. 

So, yes its definitely a good thing for people suffering from MPB. But have to be carefoul to take some iodine also sometimes. And for sides, if we use the perfect dosage, i think its can be fine since its stimulate almost selectively the ERn, the receptor that men get less and less activate as they get older or are MPB sufferer. Notice that take it topically will not have same effect. It has to be taken orally

----------


## PinotQ

For what it's worth, there is a very interesting research article I just came across from 2012.  Here is the link to the abstract: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...87B557F.f03t03.   But you have to buy (or rent for 48 hours) to view the full article.  The research is on topically applied equol to human skin in vitro.  When dissolved in DMSO at a concentration of 1.2% it apparently had a significant impact.  (Note that equol dissolves at the same concentration in both DMSO and ethanol.) 

Here are a couple of notable quotes:

"Notably, when equol was incubated with 5a-DHT at the same concentration, (10 nm), it completely reversed the cytotoxic influence of this natural potent androgen hormone......"

"The notion from previous results reproting that 5a-DHT has a negative impact on skin were confirmed in this study, as seen in experiment 4 , (Fig. 3), where human monolayer fibroblasts treated with 5a-DHT alone significantly decreased cell viability in experiment 4, whereas with the addition of equol to 5a-DHT treated cells, cell viability was restored to control levels.  The results highlight equol's ability to interact with 5a-DHT and sequester it from the androgen receptor....."

This research suggests that equol may be effective at controlling hair loss,with dosage and method of application being the major issues. It also suggests that topical application at a concentration at or in excess of 1.2 %, as oppossed to oral application, may be optimal.

----------


## cthulhu2

> For what it's worth, there is a very interesting research article I just came across from 2012.  Here is the link to the abstract: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...87B557F.f03t03.   But you have to buy (or rent for 48 hours) to view the full article.  The research is on topically applied equol to human skin in vitro.  When dissolved in DMSO at a concentration of 1.2% it apparently had a significant impact.  (Note that equol dissolves at the same concentration in both DMSO and ethanol.) 
> 
> Here are a couple of notable quotes:
> 
> "Notably, when equol was incubated with 5a-DHT at the same concentration, (10 nm), it completely reversed the cytotoxic influence of this natural potent androgen hormone......"
> 
> "The notion from previous results reproting that 5a-DHT has a negative impact on skin were confirmed in this study, as seen in experiment 4 , (Fig. 3), where human monolayer fibroblasts treated with 5a-DHT alone significantly decreased cell viability in experiment 4, whereas with the addition of equol to 5a-DHT treated cells, cell viability was restored to control levels.  The results highlight equol's ability to interact with 5a-DHT and sequester it from the androgen receptor....."
> 
> This research suggests that equol may be effective at controlling hair loss,with dosage and method of application being the major issues. It also suggests that topical application at a concentration at or in excess of 1.2 %, as oppossed to oral application, may be optimal.


 good find! If anyone decides to try this please please post before and after pics. That is the only way we can determine validity.

----------


## bananana

just one thing - I might be crazy, but I think I'm seeing less grey hair since I've started taking S-equol, could it be related?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> just one thing - I might be crazy, but I think I'm seeing less grey hair since I've started taking S-equol, could it be related?


 are you using it as a topical?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

What about aloe vera as a vehicle?


Aloe vera, as a biological vehicle for hydrocortisone 21-acetate, was tested topically and systemically against acute inflammation. Systemically, the combination of A. vera and hydrocortisone produced a maximum 88.1% inhibition of edema. Polymorphonuclear leukocyte infiltration was reduced 91.1%. The topical inhibition of edema peaked at 97%. The possibility that A. vera has significant potential as a biologically active vehicle for steroids is discussed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1993971

----------


## NeedHairASAP

I got versapro

how many s equol pills should i put in 100mg  of versapro?

I'mgoing to add zinc and ginger root too

----------


## Adaku

Where did you get VersaPro / what led to the decision use it? I haven't looked into it much.

I may try this as well, after I read the paper that pinotq posted.

----------


## bananana

> are you using it as a topical?


 Nope, orally.

----------


## PinotQ

> I got versapro
> 
> how many s equol pills should i put in 100mg  of versapro?
> 
> I'mgoing to add zinc and ginger root too


 This may help you out: http://www.physiologyweb.com/calcula...alculator.html  Go to the bottom and there is a calculator to figure percentage concentrations.   I am a little confused about the solubility of equol.  If you go here: https://www.caymanchem.com/pdfs/10010173.pdf  it says that equol is soluble at 15mg/ml.  Here: https://www.lclabs.com/PRODFILE/D-F/E-5880.html at 200mg/ml Here: http://www.selleckchem.com/products/equol.html at 48mg/ml

So I'm not sure what the solubility is.....although since the research article says they used a 1.2% in DMSO, solubilty may be closer to the  15mg/ml.

----------


## thechamp

Can I add it to minoxdil to make a topical ??

----------


## PinotQ

> Can I add it to minoxdil to make a topical ??


 I think one thing everyone should be aware of if they want to make a topical is that the powder inside Nature's Sunshine capsules is substantially filler.  You would need to open each capsule and dissolve the powder in ethyl alcohol.  Then you would need to filter the alcohol to remove the sediment.  I suppose you could buy equol in quantity but unless you buy in huge bulk it is outrageously expensive.  You could probably buy it in China at a cheap cost but I wouldn't trust anything coming from there.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I think one thing everyone should be aware of if they want to make a topical is that the powder inside Nature's Sunshine capsules is substantially filler.  You would need to open each capsule and dissolve the powder in ethyl alcohol.  Then you would need to filter the alcohol to remove the sediment.  I suppose you could buy equol in quantity but unless you buy in huge bulk it is outrageously expensive.  You could probably buy it in China at a cheap cost but I wouldn't trust anything coming from there.


 Dude! why didn't you mention this. I just got my vesapro and don't feel like going all chemist with this

----------


## thechamp

So we can't just drop a few pills in too minoxdill ??

----------


## PinotQ

> Dude! why didn't you mention this. I just got my vesapro and don't feel like going all chemist with this


 Not that it's my responsibility but I did suggest a process in a post on 10/31 where I said that I looked up all of the filler ingredients in Nature's Sunshine and none of them are soluble in alcohol. I'm not a chemist but that would lead me to believe that if you dissolve the powder in ethyl alcohol, you would be left with filler at the bottom and a solution that contains a certain % of equol.  Also, I believe my % solution calculations were wrong in that post.  According to the % solution calculator here: http://www.physiologyweb.com/calcula...alculator.html  you would need to dissolve 443.6025 mg of equol in 1 oz of alcohol to obtain a 1.5% alcohol solution of equol. That's about 1 and 1/4 bottles of equol.

----------


## thechamp

> Not that it's my responsibility but I did suggest a process in a post on 10/31 where I said that I looked up all of the filler ingredients in Nature's Sunshine and none of them are soluble in alcohol. I'm not a chemist but that would lead me to believe that if you dissolve the powder in ethyl alcohol, you would be left with filler at the bottom and a solution that contains a certain % of equol.  Also, I believe my % solution calculations were wrong in that post.  According to the % solution calculator here: http://www.physiologyweb.com/calcula...alculator.html  you would need to dissolve 443.6025 mg of equol in 1 oz of alcohol to obtain a 1.5% alcohol solution of equol. That's about 1 and 1/4 bottles of equol.


 Why don't we get the chemist that user jazz knows Tracy maybe she can mix some up for us ?

----------


## Jazz1

> Why don't we get the chemist that user jazz knows Tracy maybe she can mix some up for us ?


 Susan told me she can formulate anything, but all depends how legal the drugs and compounds are? As she won't formulate illegal compounds she's very by the book and strict.

----------


## thechamp

> Susan told me she can formulate anything, but all depends how legal the drugs and compounds are? As she won't formulate illegal compounds she's very by the book and strict.


 http://www.naturessunshine.com/us/pr...capsules/3542/ It's natural can you ask her for us ?

----------


## Jazz1

> http://www.naturessunshine.com/us/pr...capsules/3542/ It's natural can you ask her for us ?


 I asked her before, she's always up for making anything so if that's legit legal than no problem. Who interested in trying it?

----------


## thechamp

> I asked her before, she's always up for making anything so if that's legit legal than no problem. Who interested in trying it?


 We all want to make a topical but the pills have fillers, I need to know the dosage now we have a chemist that can formulate a topical

----------


## Jazz1

> We all want to make a topical but the pills have fillers, I need to know the dosage now we have a chemist that can formulate a topical


 The machines she has filters out the fillers as when she first formulated the lotions due to high demand she run out of chemical finesteride. I asked if using the pills were bad and she stated the machines she has filter out every filler.

If you can create a thread and everyone is serious get me names/numbers on who's interested? That way I can contact her with rough numbers and help reduce prices for more orders.

----------


## Chris007

I can't somehow get on proequol.com. Is this up? Or are they out of business? I would like to purchase some if possible.

----------


## cthulhu2

> I can't somehow get on proequol.com. Is this up? Or are they out of business? I would like to purchase some if possible.


 They've been out of business for awhile. Equol is one of those things where if you are naturally an equol producer, taking soy can increase equol production but with non equol producers, this does nothing. Only about 30% of the US population is equol producers and in other words, you need to take pure equol and not a precursor, as this only works for equol producers.

----------


## roarmighty

Is this product available? The website seems not to be active.

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> Not that it's my responsibility but I did suggest a process in a post on 10/31 where I said that I looked up all of the filler ingredients in Nature's Sunshine and none of them are soluble in alcohol. I'm not a chemist but that would lead me to believe that if you dissolve the powder in ethyl alcohol, you would be left with filler at the bottom and a solution that contains a certain % of equol.  Also, I believe my % solution calculations were wrong in that post.  According to the % solution calculator here: http://www.physiologyweb.com/calcula...alculator.html  you would need to dissolve 443.6025 mg of equol in 1 oz of alcohol to obtain a 1.5% alcohol solution of equol. That's about 1 and 1/4 bottles of equol.


 Anymore news on a topical form of S-Equol. It seems everyone just gave up...

----------


## burtandernie

Where do you buy pure equol? A lot of this stuff is just too expensive or has no mainstream suppliers which just shoots it dead. Only the hardcore dedicated will chase these uncertain options to the ends of the world.
Its still hard to believe taking this assuming it worked would not give any sides or something unlike finasteride. Can it work topically or orally?

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> Where do you buy pure equol? A lot of this stuff is just too expensive or has no mainstream suppliers which just shoots it dead. Only the hardcore dedicated will chase these uncertain options to the ends of the world.
> Its still hard to believe taking this assuming it worked would not give any sides or something unlike finasteride. Can it work topically or orally?


 Topically in a cationic liposomal delivery method would be ideal. Oral administration requires MUCH HIGHER doses for effectiveness. The main issue is the lack of a credible and affordable source.

----------


## FeelsBad

I bought the Nature's Sunshine equol pills and dissolved them in ethanol, letting the fillers settle to the bottom. I applied about 5 mg per day and after about a week I've been getting a massive shed. Lots of white bulbs on the ends of the shed hairs (not sure what that means). What could be the reason for this negative effect? I feel like it's too early for it to be a positive shed.

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> I bought the Nature's Sunshine equol pills and dissolved them in ethanol, letting the fillers settle to the bottom. I applied about 5 mg per day and after about a week I've been getting a massive shed. Lots of white bulbs on the ends of the shed hairs (not sure what that means). What could be the reason for this negative effect? I feel like it's too early for it to be a positive shed.


 5mg may be a bit too much. I would try around 1 or 2mg for the topical if it's penetrating correctly.

----------


## nobs

Has anyone had any results taking s equol orally? There are just too many pages to go through and it was a long day at work.

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> Has anyone had any results taking s equol orally? There are just too many pages to go through and it was a long day at work.


 It needs to be taken topically. Oral administration requires astronomical doses while topical can be targeted to the DHT in the scalp.

----------


## nobs

> It needs to be taken topically. Oral administration requires astronomical doses while topical can be targeted to the DHT in the scalp.


 thanks for the quick reply, love the user name also.

----------


## FeelsBad

What's a good vehicle for s-equol? Standard ethanol/pg?

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> What's a good vehicle for s-equol? Standard ethanol/pg?


 I'm not sure how good the penetration will be but you need to apply it daily because Equol doesn't attack the source. 5ar2 won't need to regenerate DHT levels so there will be a constant stream towards the scalp. If you decide to wait, there will be a product coming out in 2017 that uses cationic liposomal penetration to deliver S-Equol. This will likely be better than a standard ethanol solution. In fact, I'm not sure where you could reliably find S-Equol. Do you have a supplier?

----------


## nobs

> I'm not sure how good the penetration will be but you need to apply it daily because Equol doesn't attack the source. 5ar2 won't need to regenerate DHT levels so there will be a constant stream towards the scalp. If you decide to wait, there will be a product coming out in 2017 that uses cationic liposomal penetration to deliver S-Equol. This will likely be better than a standard ethanol solution. In fact, I'm not sure where you could reliably find S-Equol. Do you have a supplier?


 Is there any evidence that it works topically? I'd like to know more about this product if you have more info. I don't think getting quantity of s equol would be terribly difficult since it is a naturally occurring substance and not a licensed chemical.

----------


## bananana

I took a 5hitload of it orally, but nothing happened, like 2 grams daily for 6 months... 
but I got it from China, who knows was it pure and at what level.

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> I took a 5hitload of it orally, but nothing happened, like 2 grams daily for 6 months... 
> but I got it from China, who knows was it pure and at what level.


 Orally is gonna require enormous doses and even then it may metabolize too quickly. Topically is definitely the way to go.

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> Is there any evidence that it works topically? I'd like to know more about this product if you have more info. I don't think getting quantity of s equol would be terribly difficult since it is a naturally occurring substance and not a licensed chemical.


 https://www.google.com/search?q=s+eq...obile&ie=UTF-8 There's a lot of good info in this patent by Brigham Young University. There are more sources but this is a good place to start.

----------


## nobs

I was reading that nature's sunshine's product doesn't really specify whether its r or s equal, and reps for the company havent answered that question upon request. Naturemade, probably the biggest supplement company, was talking about releasing an s equol product some 4 years ago but there hasnt been any updates recently.

----------


## Swooping

> I was reading that nature's sunshine's product doesn't really specify whether its r or s equal, and reps for the company havent answered that question upon request. Naturemade, probably the biggest supplement company, was talking about releasing an s equol product some 4 years ago but there hasnt been any updates recently.


 This is the right one ; https://www.otsuka.co.jp/en/product/equelle/

http://equelle.jp

You can buy it on e-bay.

----------


## nobs

> This is the right one ; https://www.otsuka.co.jp/en/product/equelle/
> 
> http://equelle.jp
> 
> You can buy it on e-bay.


 Looks legit, Otsuka is a very reputable pharma company. It is on the expensive side, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try if it means just dumping it into a bottle of minoxidil and posting before and after pics.

----------


## kuba197

http://www.asm.org/index.php/journal...pause-symptoms

----------


## kuba197

It seems to me that we are going to have a new maintance drug. If the price will be low, Fin or Dut will not be necessary anymore.

----------


## nobs

> It seems to me that we are going to have a new maintance drug. If the price will be low, Fin or Dut will not be necessary anymore.


 Anyone know why NatureMade has spent years studying s-equol instead of releasing a damn product already? It's not like they can patent the molecule since it is naturally occurring.

----------


## Swooping

> Anyone know why NatureMade has spent years studying s-equol instead of releasing a damn product already? It's not like they can patent the molecule since it is naturally occurring.


 You want that specific product you buy from Otsuka.. Look at their site; 




> Not everyone can produce S-equol after eating soy. Therefore, Pharmavite LLC, a subsidiary of Otsuka Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd., developed a rigorous clinical trials program to study a nutritional supplement containing S-equol to help manage menopausal symptoms. Additionally, researchers are studying S-equol for other potential health benefits.


 


> supplement," said coauthor Belinda H. Jenks, Ph.D., director of Scientific Affairs & Nutrition Education at Pharmavite LLC, the makers of Nature Made® vitamins and minerals and a subsidiary of Otsuka Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd., which supported the study.

----------


## burtandernie

It would be nice to see something like this that is affordable and can accomplish the same as propecia for just maintaining. If this worked though why would it not have sides just like propecia? This way or the enzyme the end result is just lower DHT

----------


## nobs

> It would be nice to see something like this that is affordable and can accomplish the same as propecia for just maintaining. If this worked though why would it not have sides just like propecia? This way or the enzyme the end result is just lower DHT


 The problem with inhibiting 5 alpha reductase is that the enzyme is responsible for producing neurosteroids that are involved in sex drive, mood, and believe it or not tear formation. 5 alpha reductase inhibitors decrease tear formation leading to dry eye, and this is well documented.

----------


## burtandernie

> The problem with inhibiting 5 alpha reductase is that the enzyme is responsible for producing neurosteroids that are involved in sex drive, mood, and believe it or not tear formation. 5 alpha reductase inhibitors decrease tear formation leading to dry eye, and this is well documented.


 Yeah actually I guess that is true. That is one of the big things that has kind of made me very hesitant to ever try finasteride myself over the years. The 5 ar 3 enzyme discovered after fin supposedly only stopped the 5-ar 2 is a little nerve racking when you consider how little anyone knows about the brain like neurosteroids. I mean anything going wrong there will never be fixable because no one has any idea how it works.
Yes for the last 25 years we have been wishing for a safer alternative to fin to just hair on our heads now yet alone regrowing anything. Still waiting.

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> It would be nice to see something like this that is affordable and can accomplish the same as propecia for just maintaining. If this worked though why would it not have sides just like propecia? This way or the enzyme the end result is just lower DHT


  Theoretically, this would bind to DHT locally where it is applied. That would prevent the DHT from binding to the androgen receptor. Viola! No more baldness. Or no more balding, rather.

----------


## kuba197

The recognized leader in the battle against the balding effects of DHT is the clinically proven and FDA approved drug Propecia (finasteride). Propecia works by inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to DHT, potentially slowing or even reversing the effects of androgenic alopecia. However, approximately 2% of males who take Propecia experience debilitating sexual side effects.

Unlike finasteride, Folexen's rumored ability to suppress hair loss and potentially regrow hair is based on the theory that S-equol can bind strongly to free DHT molecules, prohibiting them from binding to the hair follicles' receptor sites. Because Folexen does not suppress the conversion of testosterone to DHT, there is no resulting increase of testosterone in the body and therefore, no sexual side.

----------


## nobs

> The recognized leader in the battle against the balding effects of DHT is the clinically proven and FDA approved drug Propecia (finasteride). Propecia works by inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to DHT, potentially slowing or even reversing the effects of androgenic alopecia. However, approximately 2% of males who take Propecia experience debilitating sexual side effects.
> 
> Unlike finasteride, Folexen's rumored ability to suppress hair loss and potentially regrow hair is based on the theory that S-equol can bind strongly to free DHT molecules, prohibiting them from binding to the hair follicles' receptor sites. Because Folexen does not suppress the conversion of testosterone to DHT, there is no resulting increase of testosterone in the body and therefore, no sexual side.


 I don't even know how to respond to this. It's almost as if you copied and pasted from a folexen thread from four years ago.

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## kuba197

They explain how equol works and why it hasn't sides.

----------


## burtandernie

I guess I am still a bit skeptical it would actually work. Are there any major studies or people with androgen test blood work showing before/after the DHT levels dropping significantly? Without proof I put this in the huge pile of who knows treatments that probably dont work. The list of natural stuff like black tea, spearment tea, flax seeds,saw palmetto/beta sis, and so on that all supposedly lower DHT, but none of those seem to actually stop MPB. So why is this any different?
 I guess we need a small study with exact dosing, and someone to mimic that with blood tests proving it does lower DHT like the theory crafting suggests. A lot of times theory doesnt match physical results. Like I said the list of natural stuff that supposedly lowers androgens is quite large now, but none of it has ever replaced propecia.

----------


## kuba197

http://www.hairloss-research.org/Lin...nsity7-10.html

----------


## kuba197

******More encouraging, to the point of being exciting, is that equol production can, according to researchers at Bear Biotech, be rapidly facilitated in non-producers by the inclusion of dietary cofactors with Soy Isoflavones, resulting in the cessation of hormone related hair loss within 2-3 weeks. These cofactors combined with Soy Isoflavones enable an individual with a different diet and racial/ethnic makeup to produce equol in proportion to his/her eastern equol producing counterparts

----------


## kuba197

******So what are these cofactors that can be used in conjunction with Soy Isoflavones to rapidly facilitate Equol production in genetic non-producers?

******The short answer-Soy Isoflavones, Green Tea Extract, ProBiotics combined with the daily consumption of two 8-10oz cups of Soymilk , along with 1 cup of yogurt containing acidophilus will quickly turn non equol producers into producers

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

Eh, I'm not sure that's gonna turn you into an equol producer. I think it's genetic more than anything. That's why the S-equol would have to be applied several times throughout the week.

----------


## kuba197

> Eh, I'm not sure that's gonna turn you into an equol producer. I think it's genetic more than anything. That's why the S-equol would have to be applied several times throughout the week.


 IMO liposmal delvery is the key.

----------


## Pray The Bald Away

> IMO liposmal delvery is the key.


 Yeah, it certainly sounds promising.

----------


## FeelsBad

So I ended up buying some equelle. The problem is that they are not capsules of powder, more like tablets with some kind of coating, so I don't know how to go about dissolving them to create a topical. Does anyone have any advice? Here are the ingredients:



Nutrition Component

Per tablet (0.66 g)
Energy: 2.86 kcal, protein: 0–0.3 g, fat: 0–0.2 g, carbohydrates: 0.375 g, sodium: 0–2 mg, S-equol: 2.5 mg, Soy isoflavones(aglycone): 1.6mg

Ingredients

Fermented soy germ, glucose, cellulose, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose (HPMC), colorings (titanium oxide, caramel), talc, calcium stearate

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## burtandernie

S-equol right now still suffers the problems of saw palmetto and countless other supplements that should help with mpb. Reliable suppliers at a reasonable price for one, but more importantly what is the dose to get results for MPB? Does it even work like people theorycraft it should by binding to Dht. Its often hard to theory craft in medicine because so little is understood. It could takes grams of the stuff to get results for MPB who really knows
It just lacks evidence. Does anyone have blood tests showing DHT levels dropping significantly before/after s-equol?

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## tipsfedora

> S-equol right now still suffers the problems of saw palmetto and countless other supplements that should help with mpb. Reliable suppliers at a reasonable price for one, but more importantly what is the dose to get results for MPB? Does it even work like people theorycraft it should by binding to Dht. Its often hard to theory craft in medicine because so little is understood. It could takes grams of the stuff to get results for MPB who really knows
> It just lacks evidence. Does anyone have blood tests showing DHT levels dropping significantly before/after s-equol?


 https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...hase-2-for-BPH

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## burtandernie

Most of these studies were in rats. I would also feel a bit better if they had a study in humans showing some dose of equol actually did anything for MPB instead of just assuming because it lowers DHT it will have same effect on MPB. It very well might, but we need to see a little more IMO before proclaiming equol as the fin replacement. Not a lot of places sell equol either otherwise im sure lots of people would on it with tests hopefully on DHT levels

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