# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Further Follicept civil conversation

## efedrez

I understand the policy violations in the past Follicept threads however I'm trying to open a new one since most of the forum members would like to remain informed on this new potential treatment.
BTT has always been a great place to share ideas and news for baldies around the world and I honestly hope we could continue to use the forum to share information on this or any other potential treatment regardless how controversial the conversation might get

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## Trouse5858

I was thinking the same thing. Good job.

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## jamesst11

Great idea! I have enjoyed following Follicept.  I think DEBATE is good and should always be welcomed.  SARCASM and INSULTS have NO place in any educated discussion. Let's keep this real.  :Smile:

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## Delphi

I think its a good idea, but I do not think that guy Devon should be allowed to continue to pander to the more desperate members of this forum.  I understand the mods here try to keep things fair and balanced and try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I personally think he should be excluded from any discussion and so should anyone who violated any of the rules on the other Follicept threads. 

At least this way people can give their real impressions without all the bickering and without that guy Devon trying to play Mr. nice guy or play the victim like he does on his own blog. Another thing is that anyone who would believe anything that a company like this says on their own blog is crazy. Its so easy to manipulate desperate people, especially if you play up to them like Devon has. Its utterly  unprofessional for any real medical  research team  to attempt to build relationships with desperate hair loss forum members and act like he is their friend.  I think its a good idea to keep our eyes open and to continue to talk about Follicept here on BTT.

What do you say Winston? I do not personally believe that this will be anything more than another cosmetic product sold as a hair loss cure, but it will be interesting to see how things play out.

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## amadeus

As a long time member here, it always makes me sad to see just how easy it is to create hype on these forums. All one has to do is make it appear like they are really onto something and then work the crowd.  Oh, and if they have a website and post a couple of Youtube videos they have instant credibility among the really young and desperate on the forums. 

I think its fine to discuss  Follicept, but its very difficult to take them seriously and I caution everyone to wait for independent verification before putting this stuff on your heads once they start selling it. We all know how easy it is to manipulate before and after pictures and even video can be manipulated with some light variance. I agree with Delphi that its going to be interesting to see how this plays out, but Im in it purely for the entertainment value :Smile: 





> I think its a good idea, but I do not think that guy Devon should be allowed to continue to pander to the more desperate members of this forum.  I understand the mods here try to keep things fair and balanced and try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I personally think he should be excluded from any discussion and so should anyone who violated any of the rules on the other Follicept threads. 
> 
> At least this way people can give their real impressions without all the bickering and without that guy Devon trying to play Mr. nice guy or play the victim like he does on his own blog. Another thing is that anyone who would believe anything that a company like this says on their own blog is crazy. Its so easy to manipulate desperate people, especially if you play up to them like Devon has. Its utterly  unprofessional for any real medical  research team  to attempt to build relationships with desperate hair loss forum members and act like he is their friend.  I think its a good idea to keep our eyes open and to continue to talk about Follicept here on BTT.
> 
> What do you say Winston? I do not personally believe that this will be anything more than another cosmetic product sold as a hair loss cure, but it will be interesting to see how things play out.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Ding dong, the witch is dead.

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## gainspotter

Maybe this thread should have been re named to 'lets all slate follicept'.

Seriously though, they've had nobody's money and until they have sufficient proof it grows hair they won't get anybody's money. Please respect these people for at least trying to find an alternative to crippling pills, disgusting foams and pathetic hair transplants. Obviously it could flop, We all know this, but as no money is being requested then let us stop moaning and have patience.

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## Delphi

> Maybe this thread should have been re named to 'lets all slate follicept'.
> 
> Seriously though, they've had nobody's money and until they have sufficient proof it grows hair they won't get anybody's money. Please respect these people for at least trying to find an alternative to crippling pills, disgusting foams and pathetic hair transplants. Obviously it could flop, We all know this, but as no money is being requested then let us stop moaning and have patience.


 I think being civil and having patients is always the way to go, but we all have to realize the Devon came here for a reason and even states on his own website that BTT served its purpose. Asking for money right away isnt the smart move and they know this. Endearing themselves and becoming entrenched in the hair loss community will be much more effective in the end, so no one on these forums should be naive enough to think otherwise. The fact that Devon asked for feed back on their logo and for other ideas from the community is a classic psychological tactic for building trust. 

I think having a real and respectful discussion about Follicept and not one filled with hype, speculation and desperate hope can be very beneficial.

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## PayDay

I dont think a civil, respectful discussion will ever gain any traction. These types of overnight hit products usually attract the really aggressive types on all the forums. They are either going to kiss Devons ass or call him a scam artist, and  there is usually no real middle ground. I think its best to just keep this type of nonsense off the forum, it only gives kids false hope and gives legitimacy to Follicept,  If Follicept ends up working, well all learn about it in the news. If history has taught us anything, not a single company who has used these forums to promote their cures has ever amounted to anything.

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## jamesst11

I really don't think Devon is to blame for anything.  Go back through the old posts.  The conversation was completely civil until certain members of this forum made it otherwise.  He was simply stating that they had a product that showed potential.  He never said they were 100% sure of it's effectiveness.  The dreamers turned it into a dream and the haters turned it into a fraud.

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## PayDay

> I really don't think Devon is to blame for anything.  Go back through the old posts.  The conversation was completely civil until certain members of this forum made it otherwise.  He was simply stating that they had a product that showed potential.  He never said they were 100% sure of it's effectiveness.  The dreamers turned it into a dream and the haters turned it into a fraud.


 Thats true and thats the way these types of threads all turn out. The fanatics on either side take over and all of a sudden the thread is 200 pages. As far as Devon, I would have to agree with Delphi about his pandering to these desperate members. Hes not a stupid guy, he understands the importance of building an audience in a community like this one. He got what he could out of BTT and took all of his sycophants over to his website so he can freely indulge their desperate need for hope without question. Hey, that's cool, I understand he's a business man,  but lets call it for what it really is. I personally think the fanatics ruin this great community. People come here for help, not ridiculous drama.

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## Delphi

> Thats true and thats the way these types of threads all turn out. The fanatics on either side take over and all of a sudden the thread is 200 pages. As far as Devon, I would have to agree with Delphi about his pandering to these desperate members. Hes not a stupid guy, he understands the importance of building an audience in a community like this one. He got what he could out of BTT and took all of his sycophants over to his website so he can freely indulge their desperate need for hope without question. Hey, that's cool, I understand he's a business man,  but lets call it for what it really is. I personally think the fanatics ruin this great community. People come here for help, not ridiculous drama.


 Amen! Maybe you're right, it probably isn't such a great idea to try to continue a conversation about this. I mean, what's the point really? The posters who spend most of their time going back and fourth to make the their little points are usually not the most rational people and I agree they are only toxic to this community.

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## NeedHairASAP

> Amen! Maybe you're right, it probably isn't such a great idea to try to continue a conversation about this. I mean, what's the point really? The posters who spend most of their time going back and fourth to make the their little points are usually not the most rational people and I agree they are only toxic to this community.


 
The real reason that it isn't worth talking about is becuase they are TESTING IT RIGHT NOW... so there isn't much to talk about until they release results (good or bad). Then there is room for more debate/conversation....

At this point, its either (1) people posting to hear themselves post or (2) people asking some absurd hypothetical answerless question....

The fact is, we'll have some results (again, good or bad) shortly... not much else to talk about, past or present.

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## serenemoon

> The real reason that it isn't worth talking about is becuase they are TESTING IT RIGHT NOW... so there isn't much to talk about until they release results (good or bad). Then there is room for more debate/conversation....
> 
> At this point, its either (1) people posting to hear themselves post or (2) people asking some absurd hypothetical answerless question....
> 
> The fact is, we'll have some results (again, good or bad) shortly... not much else to talk about, past or present.


 +1. We won't know for at least two months. I don't think it will be easy for Devon to lie about his hair line, especially we get to see his hair line progress through VIDEO, so that will kind of be positive proof for me.

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## amadeus

Its going to take far longer than a couple of months to verify any type of meaningful results and I disagree with your statement about Devon and his hairline. The slightest change in lighting or difference in camera position can make it appear that his hairline has either gotten better or worse. Any legitimate company would invest in accurate documentation methods, including third party densitometry, miniaturization mapping and use a clinical photo booth. The way they are presenting so far is amateurish at best.




> +1. We won't know for at least two months. I don't think it will be easy for Devon to lie about his hair line, especially we get to see his hair line progress through VIDEO, so that will kind of be positive proof for me.

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## serenemoon

> It’s going to take far longer than a couple of months to verify any type of meaningful results and I disagree with your statement about Devon and his hairline. The slightest change in lighting or difference in camera position can make it appear that his hairline has either gotten better or worse. Any legitimate company would invest in accurate documentation methods, including third party densitometry, miniaturization mapping and use a clinical photo booth. The way they are presenting so far is amateurish at best.


 I think your line of thinking is accurate if the improvement is minimal. But if it is genuinely dramatic as they expect it to be (and let's be honest, if it is not dramatic, why would anyone buy it when there are things such as Rogaine?) then I don't think they can really fool us in a "video" like that. I hope you get what I am trying to say. I do think that if the results are not dramatic, then the "fooling" tactics will work on some people. I am not saying this is definitely going to be the case, but let's say he grows a NW 0 then I don't see how any amount of lighting/camera position woud change our perception. I do see where you are coming from though. They will be doing trichoscans and all that good stuff in the official clinical trials.

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## amadeus

I see what youre saying and agree with you. The thing is, legitimate companies tend to make every trial official. Time is money and every step of the process is of vital importance to demonstrating the success of the product. While it appears transparent to involve the public and hair loss forum members in the process, it would not happen in the real world of clinical study for various legal and ethical reasons. 




> I think your line of thinking is accurate if the improvement is minimal. But if it is genuinely dramatic as they expect it to be (and let's be honest, if it is not dramatic, why would anyone buy it when there are things such as Rogaine?) then I don't think they can really fool us in a "video" like that. I hope you get what I am trying to say. I do think that if the results are not dramatic, then the "fooling" tactics will work on some people. I am not saying this is definitely going to be the case, but let's say he grows a NW 0 then I don't see how any amount of lighting/camera position woud change our perception. I do see where you are coming from though. They will be doing trichoscans and all that good stuff in the official clinical trials.

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## Arashi

> It’s going to take far longer than a couple of months to verify any type of meaningful results and I disagree with your statement about Devon and his hairline. The slightest change in lighting or difference in camera position can make it appear that his hairline has either gotten better or worse. Any legitimate company would invest in accurate documentation methods, including third party densitometry, miniaturization mapping and use a clinical photo booth. The way they are presenting so far is amateurish at best.


 The guy didnt even want to shave his head, for crying out loud. "amaterish at best", that's giving them way too much credit.

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## serenemoon

> I see what you’re saying and agree with you. The thing is, legitimate companies tend to make every trial “official.” Time is money and every step of the process is of vital importance to demonstrating the success of the product. While it appears transparent to involve the public and hair loss forum members in the process, it would not happen in the real world of clinical study for various legal and ethical reasons.


 True, but the in house trial is precisely so that they know if spendng money on official trals would be worth it. They guys are new and don't have the kind of funding that big companies like UpJohn have access to, so they have to be careful before spending a ton of money on official trials (aka they have to make sure it will be worth it.) If those six in house guys grow a nice amount of hair, then I think they will feel confident in dumping money on the clinical trials. If not, back to square one to perfect the treatment. They are legit..just..trying to be careful I think, since they don't have massive amounts of money.

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## serenemoon

> The guy didnt even want to shave his head, for crying out loud. "amaterish at best", that's giving them way too much credit.


 I hear you about the head shave, but I am going to be watching that hair line very closely. I want them to go big and DRAMATIC. Or go home. And that hair line (if it is dramatic) will be obvious even without the big shave. For me to buy that product, I need to see a nice NW 0-1 hair line. Yup, my standards are very high this time around.

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## Arashi

> True, but the in house trial is precisely so that they know if spendng money on official trals would be worth it. They guys are new and don't have the kind of funding that big companies like UpJohn have access to, so they have to be careful before spending a ton of money on official trials (aka they have to make sure it will be worth it.) If those six in house guys grow a nice amount of hair, then I think they will feel confident in dumping money on the clinical trials. If not, back to square one to perfect the treatment. They are legit..just..trying to be careful I think, since they don't have massive amounts of money.


 Then why come to this forum ? If they're really legit and want to figure out if it works, then just do that: figure it out ! Why come here ? And then let's say they ARE serious about figuring out if it works, do you really think THE best way to do that is just put some stuff in hairy areas, without scans, without tattoos, with semi long hair ? The most positive scenario here is that they're amateurs without having any idea what they're doing.

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## amadeus

@ Arashi  Shaving for this type of trial would be unnecessary. Patients in the original Propecia trials were not required to shave their heads. Results were measured using proper clinical hair evaluation methods and imagery. Asking Devon to save his head could only possibly confuse matters. 

@serenmoon Dont buy into the we are a small company stuff. All they would have to do is enlist a local hair transplant surgeon who has the proper equipment to do the measurements and take the proper images. There are several in Florida who are equipped to do this and would probably be delighted to take part in something like this.

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## serenemoon

> @ Arashi  Shaving for this type of trial would be unnecessary. Patients in the original Propecia trials were not required to shave their heads. Results were measured using proper clinical hair evaluation methods and imagery. Asking Devon to save his head could only possibly confuse matters. 
> 
> @serenmoon Don’t buy into the “we are a small company” stuff. All they would have to do is enlist a local hair transplant surgeon who has the proper equipment to do the measurements and take the proper images. There are several in Florida who are equipped to do this and would probably be delighted to take part in something like this.


 I see, well, we will see. At the end of the day, either it will work and we will be using it and growing hair, or we will be balding as usual. I am ready to handle it either way.

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## Arashi

> @ Arashi  Shaving for this type of trial would be unnecessary. Patients in the original Propecia trials were not required to shave their heads. Results were measured using proper clinical hair evaluation methods and imagery. Asking Devon to save his head could only possibly confuse matters.


 That's interesting. I can see existing hairs covering most of the scalp, making it next to impossible to analyze the scalp. How did they solve that in the Propecia trial if they didnt shave ?

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## amadeus

Thats a good question. I think it was Delphi who said it best, when he said  baldtruthtalk.com is the most influential hair loss forum in the world and that Devon came here to build relationships with its members and gain massive visibility. Look how members from the Spanish, French and German forums flocked here and began discussions on there forums once Devon started marketing here. I agree with you that if they really had something they would not have used this tactic. 




> Then why come to this forum ? If they're really legit and want to figure out if it works, then just do that: figure it out ! Why come here ? And then let's say they ARE serious about figuring out if it works, do you really think THE best way to do that is just put some stuff in hairy areas, without scans, without tattoos, with semi long hair ? The most positive scenario here is that they're amateurs without having any idea what they're doing.

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## serenemoon

> Then why come to this forum ? If they're really legit and want to figure out if it works, then just do that: figure it out ! Why come here ? And then let's say they ARE serious about figuring out if it works, do you really think THE best way to do that is just put some stuff in hairy areas, without scans, without tattoos, with semi long hair ? The most positive scenario here is that they're amateurs without having any idea what they're doing.


 Arashi, there at least two subjects that they are trying this on with SIGNIFICANT Balding. I am talking about men in their 60s with practically nothing on their heads.

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## serenemoon

> That’s a good question. I think it was Delphi who said it best, when he said  baldtruthtalk.com is the most influential hair loss forum in the world and that Devon came here to build relationships with its members and gain massive visibility. Look how members from the Spanish, French and German forums flocked here and began discussions on there forums once Devon started marketing here. I agree with you that if they really had something they would not have used this tactic.


 I think it is smart. They just got chosen as top 50 start up companies. I think they are doing it exactly right. People are watching them even before they have something. They just have to prove tht it works now.

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## Arashi

> I think it is smart. They just got chosen as top 50 start up companies. I think they are doing it exactly right. People are watching them even before they have something. They just have to prove tht it works now.


 Well all I know is that if I wanted to make money on the most desperate and naive baldies out there, without having something that actually works, I would probably do everthing exactly like Devon did it. On the other hand, if I was part of a serious team, searching for a real hairloss solution, I wouldnt even think about coming to a hairloss forum. I'd focus on finding something that works and once I'd have it, I'd call every news agency in the world. But hey, that's just me.

We'll see who's right. But for now my prediction is just like amadeus said: they'll change some lighting in their photo's and with a bit longer hair, they wouldnt even need to use a concealer like Topik to make a huge difference in appearance. Then we'll have tons of threads here, forum members fighting all over again, people claiming it worked, others claiming it didnt. Well basically like we've ALWAYS seen before how this goes. Just think of vraf's photo's for a recent example.

It's hairloss forum history repeating itself all over again and again and again. And that's what we'll see for the next 10-20 years (maybe even longer) until we actually have something that works.

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## serenemoon

> Well all I know is that if I wanted to make money on the most desperate and naive baldies out there, without having something that actually works, I would probably do everthing exactly like Devon did it. On the other hand, if I was part of a serious team, searching for a real hairloss solution, I wouldnt even think about coming to a hairloss forum. I'd focus on finding something that works and once I'd have it, I'd call every news agency in the world. But hey, that's just me.
> 
> We'll see who's right. But for now my prediction is just like amadeus said: they'll change some lighting in their photo's and with a bit longer hair, they wouldnt even need to use a concealer like Topik to make a huge difference in appearance. Then we'll have tons of threads here, forum members fighting all over again, people claiming it worked, others claiming it didnt. Well basically like we've ALWAYS seen before how this goes. Just think of vraf's photo's for a recent example.
> 
> It's hairloss forum history repeating itself all over again and again and again. And that's what we'll see for the next 10-20 years (maybe even longer) until we actually have something that works.


 I wish we could like bet on this some way or the other lol. Bet on their legitimacy at least, that if they release a product, it will work, and that if the product does not work, they won't release it. If they are liars, I will post a video admitting that I was an idiot for believing them. If they are legit, you should do the same, haha. You are mixing up Devon and Dr. Hsu. Devon is the marketing/business guy. Dr. Hsu is the science guy. Have you seen him in the forums? That is because he is taking care of the science side.

And trust me man, once they have the results, they are going to scream about it from the rooftops. But what they have now is a customer base ready to go as soon as they are ready to release it.

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## Helix

I have to agree that it's all very strange.

What confuses me the most is their optimism and high expectations considering they only done research on mice.

Personally I don't think they are intentionally scamming us. More plausible explanation is that they really are amateurs in hair loss business and that they reacted overly optimistic to their initial mice study.

The other less plausible explanation is that they are not telling us everything (legal reasons maybe) and that they have more solid evidence that this will work.

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## serenemoon

> I have to agree that it's all very strange.
> 
> What confuses me the most is their optimism and high expectations considering they only done research on mice.
> 
> Personally I don't think they are intentionally scamming us. More plausible explanation is that they really are amateurs in hair loss business and that they reacted overly optimistic to their initial mice study.
> 
> The other less plausible explanation is that they are not telling us everything (legal reasons maybe) and that they have more solid evidence that this will work.


 I do think that they became optimistic very quickly, and I HONESTLY don't think they saw the frenzy happening. I think they thought it will be a long process to get attention, especially after the indiegogo for the insulin patch did not make much money. I honestly think they just had no idea that the hair loss product will go crazy right off the bat. 

I do though, see the product's potential. And I think it will do something.

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## BoSox

> And I think it will do something.


 It will do a lot more than something, trust me. Really excited for this.

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## thejack

Arashi the amount of energy you have invested in this is insane.

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## serenemoon

> Arashi the amount of energy you have invested in this is insane.


 I can guarantee this. If the product is released, it will have amazing results. I also guarantee that Arashi will have a full head of hair if the product is released. He will see the results of some trusted forumers, and he will buy it. And he will use it. ANd he will grow hair. And he will be filled with gratitutde  :Smile:  Arashi will be a gorgeous man hunk!!

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## Arashi

> Arashi the amount of energy you have invested in this is insane.


 I think the insane thing is bickering over and over, repeating the same arguments, with people who you'll never convince in the first place cause they're so desperate that they simply HAVE to believe. I see that now, quite a waste of time. Lesson learned there.

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## Illusion

> Arashi the amount of energy you have invested in this is insane.


 This goes for more people... I myself as well have wasted quite some mental energy in this whole thing. I think some people have very high hopes and I probably get influenced by them, whether that's unconscious or not.

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## serenemoon

> I think the insane thing is bickering over and over, repeating the same arguments, with people who you'll never convince in the first place cause they're so desperate that they simply HAVE to believe. I see that now, quite a waste of time. Lesson learned there.


 Here is a genuine question for you Arashi. Clearly you are not going to be convinced by us that these guys are legit, just like we are not going to be convinced by you that this is a scam. Let's say the product is released. I assume you will wait for trusted forumers to try this product. Which guys, in your opinion, would have a sway in your opinion as to the fact that Follicept is legit? These guys should be people you sincerely believe can't be bought, won't lie/photoshop pictures, you respect and people you have known for a long time.

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## amadeus

If Follicept had concerns about legalities, ethics and long term liability they would not be running a blog and they certainly would NEVER post on this very visible and powerful  forum the way that they have. They provide no legal disclaimers and even if they do eventually, they would not be retroactive. The smallest of companies, especially in this sector would never post public comments in such an unofficial  and off the cuff capacity. The sad thing is that the young and desperate dont think of these very important issues and obviously neither does Devon or Follicept. If they were a serious company this would not have occurred. No legitimate company would hire a person like Devon who obviously has very little experience, to represent this brand and put their entire operation in jeopardy.  These are issues than cannot be overlooked.




> I have to agree that it's all very strange.
> 
> What confuses me the most is their optimism and high expectations considering they only done research on mice.
> 
> Personally I don't think they are intentionally scamming us. More plausible explanation is that they really are amateurs in hair loss business and that they reacted overly optimistic to their initial mice study.
> 
> The other less plausible explanation is that they are not telling us everything (legal reasons maybe) and that they have more solid evidence that this will work.

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## Arashi

> Here is a genuine question for you Arashi. Clearly you are not going to be convinced by us that these guys are legit, just like we are not going to be convinced by you that this is a scam. Let's say the product is released. I assume you will wait for trusted forumers to try this product. Which guys, in your opinion, would have a sway in your opinion as to the fact that Follicept is legit? These guys should be people you sincerely believe can't be bought, won't lie/photoshop pictures, you respect and people you have known for a long time.


 If the older forum users, like Hellouser report success, THEN I'd get excited. But it's so extremely unlikely to happen. Boldy, by far the most knowledgable member this forum has, already laid it out from a scientific POV why this won't work: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ept#post205761  and again, judging by the way this company has been behaving, it's also extremely unlikely they're up to something good.

Anyway I'm doing it again, discussing with you and other pro-follicepters, I've had enough of that  :Wink:  When there are actually photo's to discuss, we'll talk more  :Wink: 

Enjoy your day and your weekend !

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## Swooping

> It will do a lot more than something, trust me. Really excited for this.


 Just like TRX2 right?

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## serenemoon

> If the older forum users, like Hellouser report success, THEN I'd get excited. But it's so extremely unlikely to happen. Boldy, by far the most knowledgable member this forum has, already laid it out from a scientific POV why this won't work: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ept#post205761  and again, judging by the way this company has been behaving, it's also extremely unlikely they're up to something good.
> 
> Anyway I'm doing it again, discussing with you and other pro-follicepters, I've had enough of that  When there are actually photo's to discuss, we'll talk more 
> 
> Enjoy your day and your weekend !


 Alrighty, let's hope hellouser tries it. Hellouser, would you try it?

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## thejack

> Anyway I'm doing it again, discussing with you and other pro-follicepters, I've had enough of that  When there are actually photo's to discuss, we'll talk more 
> 
> Enjoy your day and your weekend !


 Touché

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## TheUltimatePoet

I don't believe follicept is a scam, and I will make a few points as to why.
They didn't start the original follicept thread. Actually, as far as I can tell, they registered the 'follicept' account after Swooping asked for a representative from follicept to come and answer a few questions.
https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post198618
The company behind follicept were originally working on the insulin patch for people with diabetes, especially the delivery method. The company has been working on stuff like this since it was registered in 2011 and then suddenly, out of the blue, they decide to start a hair loss treatment scam that will maybe last a few months? It just doesn't make sense...
As for Devon not shaving his hair. If you check the pictures of the six people that are going through the internal trials, you will see that a few of them are in their 60s and have quite severe hair loss, making it impossible to grow out hair/change lighting. If they were intending on scamming us, they sure made some terrible choices here.

Personnally, I don't think this is going to be the breakthrough treatment that will save hair follicles everywhere, but I really hope that it is!

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## TheUltimatePoet

> Boldy, by far the most knowledgable member this forum has, already laid it out from a scientific POV why this won't work: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ept#post205761


 And that is why experiments are such a vital part of all sciences. (Very smart) People have wrongly predicted the outcomes of new science experiments for hundreds and hundreds of years!  :Smile:

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## serenemoon

Ultimate Poet, exactly. You are right on. If you actually do your research and figure out the history of Prometheon Pharma, and get to know Dr. Hsu's background, then you wouldn't be accusing them of being scammers.

Also, there is a chance that IGF-1 COULD cause follicle neogenesis, which in that case, I don't know how the other companies will be able to compete with them.

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## TheUltimatePoet

Imagine that.  :Smile: 

*Miami, Summer of 2018*
_Jennifer_: "Wow! Look at all those Norwood 0's partying hard over there, Alice."
_Alice_: "Great party. But why do they all have 'follicept' tattooed on their chests?"

 :Smile:

----------


## serenemoon

> Imagine that. 
> 
> *Miami, Summer of 2018*
> _Jennifer_: "Wow! Look at all those Norwood 0's partying hard over there, Alice."
> _Alice_: "Great party. But why do they all have 'follicept' tattooed on their chests?"


 hahaha I love it!!! In 12 weeks, we will know if this is going to be us!!!

----------


## TravisB

That Devon guy didn't even bother to get a buzzcut

This will make it hard to assess improvement (IF there will be any), unless it's spectacular (which we would all like to see but let's be real - the chances for that are tiny)

----------


## BoSox

> That Devon guy didn't even bother to get a buzzcut
> 
> This will make it hard to assess improvement (IF there will be any), unless it's spectacular (which we would all like to see but let's be real - the chances for that are tiny)


 There are other subjects who are bald. Devon doesn't have to get a buzzcut.

----------


## JayM

Grimmé: "The biggest thing is that it's completely passive and that it's for very large moleculesso far, up to [more than] 22,000 daltons [for human growth hormone]. That's the biggest we've tried, but we've never tried anything we couldn't get across the patch

The patches that are on the market, like the birth control patch, estrogen patch, nicotine patch, pain patch, those are all around 250 daltons or so. And back in 2000, there was an NIH paper written about the "Rule of 500," saying that no molecule greater than 500 daltons could get across skin because the skin was just too effective a barrier.

So, we have shattered the Rule of 500 so far by about 50 times22,500 daltonsand we don't know the upper limit yet".

I dunno about scams but this stuff doesn't mess around. No one knows if IGF-1 will work but for topical treatments it could be decent.

----------


## Hemo

There's nothing to discuss at this point other than random conjecture.  Should have at least waited until initial results were released before starting another tread.

----------


## JayM

> There's nothing to discuss at this point other than random conjecture.  Should have at least waited until initial results were released before starting another tread.


 This is true about opening a new thread but I still think there is a lot to discuss, in a civil manor of course. I was also thinking you could just use follicept as a topical medium. A lot of people do group buys for things such as RU. If you can reduce the concentration needed a lot more people could participate. They have claimed minox could be a danger but we know you can ingest 1mg of propecia fine or 0.5mg of dut. So chucking it on your head and getting better penetration could benefit? Plus if it doesn't blow your head up, imagine using smaller amounts of minox. People who got irritation before could use a lot less. 

Like I said these are simple suggestion but could help a lot of people. I remember a lot of here-say when the first thread opened about follicept and a lot of people were sceptical about any new developments in any transport mediums. "We would of heard something if there was" is something I hate reading but I see it a lot.

----------


## serenemoon

> This is true about opening a new thread but I still think there is a lot to discuss, in a civil manor of course. I was also thinking you could just use follicept as a topical medium. A lot of people do group buys for things such as RU. If you can reduce the concentration needed a lot more people could participate. They have claimed minox could be a danger but we know you can ingest 1mg of propecia fine or 0.5mg of dut. So chucking it on your head and getting better penetration could benefit? Plus if it doesn't blow your head up, imagine using smaller amounts of minox. People who got irritation before could use a lot less. 
> 
> Like I said these are simple suggestion but could help a lot of people. I remember a lot of here-say when the first thread opened about follicept and a lot of people were sceptical about any new developments in any transport mediums. "We would of heard something if there was" is something I hate reading but I see it a lot.


 You make an excellent point about the potential of their delivery technology. I was reading about their insulin patches. Someone who uses 140 units of Insulin per week can get the SAME EXACT THERAPEUTIC BENEFIT with their elivery technology by using just SIX units of Insulin per week. I mean WOW, better for the liver, better for our bodies, LESS BODY WASTE! wow. wow. Up until recently, for transdermal delivery, it was "the Rule of 500" which is that anything large than 500 daltons cannot be pushed through the skin because the skin is too effective of an barrier. Want to know how good their delivery system is? They sent a compound of around 22,500 daltons through the skin. And they don't even KNOW the upper limit of size that can be used with their technology. Let that marinate for a second. 

Even if Follicept doesn't pan out, these guys have gold in their hands, and they are right not to sell everything off right away. Cos that thing is going to take them to new heights. I would do exactly what they do, which is to talk with certain pharma companies who are interested, but be in control of this precious technology. The more power they have over their own stuff, the more of an impact they can make all over the world. (Vitamin patches for SubSaharan African, CERVICAL DISPLASIA in tropical regions, the list goes on and on and on.)

In a sense, I am extremely glad that they are trying IGF-1 over minox with their platform delivery technology.

1. Pulse therapy, (after stopping it, hair keeps growing for a significant time period) which Rogaine won't do even if you begged it, hahahaha. 
2. POTENTIAL for Follicle neogensis - Now, they are not saying this will happen 100%, and I ain't saying that either, but we know Rogaine has..well ZERO potential of it. hahahaha.
3. It is time we directly tried something new. I am frankly sick of this Minox crap, even at a low dose. I want to see what IGF-1 can do now. RU and Minox don't have the potential that IGF-1 seems to have at this point in time. Of course the results may change that, but right now, in my eyes, potential-wise, IGF-1 is the front runner.

For follicept to REALLY REALLY win in my eyes, I think Follicle neogenesis would need to happen. I mean, for me to truly worship the product. Like I said before, my standards are at an all time high.

If this works very well, I think a lot of us won't even need minox/RU. I personally can't wait to chuck Minox out of the window. I really hope Follicept works very well. I want the most simple yet effective regimen that will get my hair back. None of these multi ingredient ****tails.

----------


## serenemoon

I saw that someone in another foum said, "Without a comparison versus a proper control, they've no way to conclusively tell if their treatment is working at anything other than an eye popping way. Which, as we know, is nearly impossible to do. Nothing has come close to propecia and minoxidil." 

LOL! I am SO GLAD that they want eye-popping results. In fact, I am glad that they won't even know if the treatment is working UNLESS it is eye popping. If it is nearly impossible to come close to propecia and minoxidil, GOOD. I would rather have something eye-popping or nothing at all. Because we already have Rogaine and Propecia to give us mediocre results. Like I said before, the next thing coming up better blow what we have out of the water. Go big or go home. This is why I disagree with the fact that Dr. Hsu is hoping for ambiguity. Follicept has said a few times, that if they really want to win the massmarket (cos a few desperate baldies' money will only go so far) they have to have incredible results and perform better than Rogaine.

I am not watching Devon, I am watching the slick bald dudes. Yup.

----------


## dus

> I saw that someone in another foum said, "Without a comparison versus a proper control, they've no way to conclusively tell if their treatment is working at anything other than an eye popping way. Which, as we know, is nearly impossible to do. Nothing has come close to propecia and minoxidil." 
> 
> LOL! I am SO GLAD that they want eye-popping results. In fact, I am glad that they won't even know if the treatment is working UNLESS it is eye popping. If it is nearly impossible to come close to propecia and minoxidil, GOOD. I would rather have something eye-popping or nothing at all. Because we already have Rogaine and Propecia to give us mediocre results. Like I said before, the next thing coming up better blow what we have out of the water. Go big or go home. This is why I disagree with the fact that Dr. Hsu is hoping for ambiguity. Follicept has said a few times, that if they really want to win the massmarket (cos a few desperate baldies' money will only go so far) they have to have incredible results and perform better than Rogaine.
> 
> I am not watching Devon, I am watching the slick bald dudes. Yup.


 Sounds more like marketing than science. Even if it did little it would be a new data point if they made proper photos.

----------


## serenemoon

> Sounds more like marketing than science. Even if it did little it would be a new data point if they made proper photos.


 This is a convenience trial, remember? And there are people who are drastically bald in it. So, that should speak volumes about "proper photos." lol.

----------


## Swooping

> This is a convenience trial, remember? And there are people who are drastically bald in it. So, that should speak volumes about "proper photos." lol.


 Dude we understand your point. Your hyped, fine. Stop repeating your point 300 times. Sit back and let's see if the treatments brings any proper visual results on their subjects.

----------


## breakbot

How do we know that Devon does not apply minoxidil on his scalp for example?

----------


## serenemoon

> Dude we understand your point. Your hyped, fine. Stop repeating your point 300 times. Sit back and let's see if the treatments brings any proper visual results on their subjects.


 Nah, hyped means I am already ready to buy it. I ain't. I am waiting for results.

----------


## serenemoon

> How do we know that Devon does not apply minoxidil on his scalp for example?


 He will get minoxidil-like results, in which case, I won't be buying it.  :Smile:

----------


## epipapilla

> He will get minoxidil-like results, in which case, I won't be buying it.


 What are "minoxidil-like results"?  :Confused:   :Confused:

----------


## serenemoon

> What are "minoxidil-like results"?


 mediocre results like this.

http://store4life.ru/images/rogaine-...ss-results.jpg

haha.

----------


## cocacola

i have to disagree,

I had sick results with 5% minox, but had to stop due to sides. I would buy a product even if its 50% of what minox gave me...

----------


## Chromeo

I'm hopeful this will yield better results than Minoxidil, but if not, I can still see people switching to this if the results are similar. The fact that you have an off-period on Follicept should be a big enough draw, if the prices are similar. Most people can't be bothered applying Minoxidil twice a day every day, for the rest of their lives.

----------


## hairisbeautiful

I understand that their transdermal technology has the ability to transfer molecules of 22 kDa across the skin. If Follicept were to use AAPE in their gel as it is FDA approved and its merely hundreds of proteins that are below the threshold of 22kDa but must be injected otherwise, would that be the key instead of IGF-1?

----------


## Arashi

Just read this comment on another forum which I really enjoyed, for being so spot on, so pasting it here:




> Follicept is a solution in search of a problem. They've got a somewhat novel delivery method that is sparking very little interest from the pharma industry. So, what can they do? Turn to the desperation of the balding community, of course. Run a half-azzed trial, using concentrations so low the FDA will turn a blind eye to them and generate results that are ambiguous at best. Trial feedback will be something to this effect: "wow, my shedding completely stopped", "my hair feels so much fuller", "i'm maintaining and no side effects!". Young desperate guys will come running with their wallets out and hopes up. This will give follicept a bit of revenue so they can continue to proposition pharma to adopt their technology for a real project. 
> 
> They're attempting this experiment with the blind hope of a child waiting for Santa to bring them their favorite toy. And, unfortunately, the way they're running this "trial" is so amateurish they've left no way to evaluate this treatment unless it grows massive amounts of hair. Without a comparison versus a proper control, they've no way to conclusively tell if their treatment is working at anything other than an eye popping way. Which, as we know, is nearly impossible to do. Nothing has come close to propecia and minoxidil.
> 
> Does anyone honestly think they believe, even for one second, that using 0.0001% solution delivered across the dermis, is gonna generate effects large enough to see from a casual inspection, essentially defeating all known treatments we've seen to date? No, they don't believe that, Dr Hsu is smarter than that. What they're counting on is ambiguity in the results, because that's what they can exploit. I simply refuse to believe they're as naive as they're letting on. Ask yourself, why is this being conducted without a control, without a systematic way of applying the treatment, why no proper baseline photos with great lighting? It's because that would remove the ambiguity. If they really are this naive and they believe this is an honest effort to bring forward a new treatment, well then i have to laugh and wish them best of luck, because they have no clue what they're doing.
> 
> Someone over at follicept page actually made reference to Devon as comparable to Jesus. No lie. Unbelievably sad and rather pathetic that some people get suckered in like that.
> 
> Maybe this will be the elusive unicorn that saves everyone's hair. But, i wouldn't count on it. I think we can all see this train wreck coming from miles away...

----------


## jamesst11

> Just read this comment on another forum which I really enjoyed, for being so spot on, so pasting it here:


 Arashi, 
     I have to MOSTLY agree with this.  The potentially promising factor in their formula, and the one that I am interested in, is the vehicle.  If they have found a novel way to deliver molecules of that size directly to the hair follicles, without the molecules going entirely systemic, couldn't this hold promise for delivery of other, more potent molecules, such as RU?

----------


## robjacksen

> Just read this comment on another forum which I really enjoyed, for being so spot on, so pasting it here:


 They clearly said 100 times that they're going to try it on themselves and then if it shows promise, they'll do a full trial. I really think the only way to explain your posts is that you're having a good time getting people all worked up. In reality, no one has ever tried this method before, so no one can say confidently whether it'll work or not. They can only guess, like you have been, but It seems like you don't know the difference between guessing and actually knowing.

----------


## Arashi

> They clearly said 100 times that they're going to try it on themselves and then if it shows promise, they'll do a full trial.


 They said they'll sell right away after this first 'trial' (not sure if you can even call it that), if the results were astonishing. That's also the only way one could even know it worked: if the results are what one could call 'mediocre', like minox, this 'testing method' is just not good enough to document it. But of course they're not aiming for 'incredible results', they're aiming for ambiguity. They'll call the results incredible themselves, start indiegogo and start selling. Anyway that's what this post laid out. And no I wasn't posting that to "work people up" but because I really think Mr Z, who posted this, is going to be spot on wit the above analysis. We'll see soon enough though !

----------


## serenemoon

> They clearly said 100 times that they're going to try it on themselves and then if it shows promise, they'll do a full trial. I really think the only way to explain your posts is that you're having a good time getting people all worked up. In reality, no one has ever tried this method before, so no one can say confidently whether it'll work or not. They can only guess, like you have been, but It seems like you don't know the difference between guessing and actually knowing.


 Exactly, and Devon SPECIFICALLY Mentioned, that they would not be going based on "opinions of people" but that they will be going based on VERY strong actual data in the approved trial. So Arashi, that guy's point is kaput.

It blows my mind that people are jumping on, "let's use the delivery technolofy for Ru/minox/fin/dut" without even waiting to see how IGF-1 would perform. IGF-1 adresses AR, upregulates other growth factors, does not need regular dosing - who is to say that IGF-1 will not blow Ru out of the water? Wait and see peeps. The problem is that a lot of you have it in your head that IGF-1 will DEFINITELY not grow any kind of hair. We will talk about Ru and other compounds when we can definitely see that IGF-1 will not be doing anything, okay? Good. Plus the delivery system is their blood, sweat and tears, so for the love of god, let the good doctor try out what he believes will bring our hair back using the delivery technology that HE came up with. He has that right do at least that.

----------


## efedrez

We should be fairly close to see some results from the in-house trial, so at this point insisting in calling Follicept a scam its not necessary.

If the results are clearly ambiguous, I would gladly team up with the guys not believing in the company since the very beginning, but for now claiming it won't work at all is speculating as much as saying it will save our hair for good.

----------


## Mehdi

Arashi you are a joke man.

Nobody claimed it gonna be the cure. But clearly we have to wait to see the results so let's not try to destruct something which hasn't even begin !

----------


## Arashi

LOL people are now accusing others on the follicept forum of being me  :Smile:  Anyway they switched to a moderation queue there now: only posts that they like will appear on their website. I posted this this morning but it never got through:




> Hi Devon, I asked before but you didnt reply: could you in your new video this week show the last forum posts on your monitor in the back ground ? So we know the video wasn't shot 4 months ago. The monitor in the background in your last video doesnt show a current forum post, I compared them, this is NOT from this forum: http://postimg.org/image/jhv4z8wgj/... That profile picture doesnt appear here in combination with that text !?!?! So I wonder what it's showing ? Can you explain that ? Anyway I think this is very important to show the last forum posts on the pc in the background the next time, so we know this is a recent video and not one from 4 months ago. Thanks !!!


 Maybe it's nothing, but I found it quite weird that A) that image in the background in the video didnt match with the forum and B) they didnt allow this post on their forum. Maybe they actually WILL show the current forum in the background in the new video. Then we'd be all fine of course ! 

Theoretically they could have shot the video 4 months ago, put their guys 4 months on Minox and present it as 2 week results from their trial. Maybe a bit far thought and there's a good chance of this being wrong. But it's a bit suspicious the least ... a forum in the background that's similar of the current forum, yet with posts not showing ... Let's hope Devon clears this up. Again, I'm not accusing anybody here, there might very well be a logical explanation ! Just hoping that in the next video we'll see some close ups of his current hairline and crown + some proof that this is the CURRENT situation.

----------


## hairisbeautiful

"Dr. Hsu here. There is a cautionary tale that I learned a long time ago when Dr. Judah Folkman's group at Harvard Medical School identified a new regulatory protein he called "angiostatin" that could prevent tumors in mice from inducing the formation of new blood vessels necessary for their continued growth and eventual metastasis. The strategy was essentially to starve the tumors into regression. When he published his work, the press began to tout this as the new magic bullet for cancer therapy. The American Cancer Society phone lines were ringing non-stop because desperate cancer patients and their families were requesting angiostatin. Dr. Folkman was horrified because he understood what you have rightly pointed out--that mice are not men. And the human clinical trials had not even started and would take many years to complete. Sure enough, angiostatin cured cancer in mice, but not in people.
On the other hand, there are many more success stories in which small animal models have proven to be highly predictive of response in humans. One of the predictors is how good the animal model reflects key features of the human disease. The safety and efficacy of injection or transdermal delivery of exogenous growth factors such as IGF-1 to hair follicles, resulting in increased hair growth rate, hair diameter, and follicle density (so-called follicle neogenesis) in normal mice and hamsters, is well-established by recent studies. It would appear to be a courageous leap of faith to expect that Follicept will achieve the same results in persons with AGA. We have established in our studies that the transdermal delivery of homeopathic doses of IGF-1 induces hair growth in a hairless rat that has a known genetic defect. How good a model is it for AGA? Well, it turns out that an older but excellent publication concluded that all of the key abnormal features of hair follicles in the "fuzzy rat" (same genetic mutation as the "hairless rat") make it an excellent model for AGA. Indeed, the fuzzy rat even responded predictably to minoxidil.
So, yes, you are right that the EFFICACY claim may appear to be premature. However, no, I am not new to the hair growth arena. We made the observation well over a year ago. For me, as a scientist in the digital age, a few months of apprenticeship is already more than enough time to become an expert in hair follicle biology, or any other focus of specialized research and knowledge. I have an intuition based on everything I've learned over 30 years as a clinician-scientist (and mouse geneticist with a PhD in Molecular Pharmacology) that some version of Follicept at the right dose and right dosing regimen will be shown to be safe and effective in a short but rigorous prospective randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study. And I think we will have an answer sometime in June-July. It may not be "THE answer." I don't believe in failure as a hard endpoint. Empirical science begins with a good hypothesis and proceeds through an iterative process to realize an intention. Product development can be viewed as a Comprehensive Anticipatory Design Science, as Buckminster Fuller called it. Follicept will be a product of that Design Science." :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## serenemoon

Dr. Hsu - a man with a golden mind.

----------


## Afghanwig

> Well, it turns out that an older but excellent publication concluded that all of the key abnormal features of hair follicles in the "fuzzy rat" (same genetic mutation as the "hairless rat") make it an excellent model for AGA. Indeed, the fuzzy rat even responded predictably to minoxidil.


 Really ? Then why has AGA for rats been solved ages ago ? For example mice DP cells can simply be expanded in culture and generate new hair. Yet NONE of the cures for mice have resulted in a cure for humans. On your website you are already claiming better results than Rogaine !!! Without having even tried it on humans and where the literature shows us that IGF-1 is actually one of the worst growthfactors in HUMAN trials when it comes to hairgrowth. 

That's just weird.

----------


## serenemoon

> Really ? Then why has AGA for rats been solved ages ago ? For example mice DP cells can simply be expanded in culture and generate new hair. Yet NONE of the cures for mice have resulted in a cure for humans. On your website you are already claiming better results than Rogaine !!! Without having even tried it on humans and where the literature shows us that IGF-1 is actually one of the worst growthfactors in HUMAN trials when it comes to hairgrowth. 
> 
> That's just weird.


 Oh lord, here we go...

"So, yes, you are right that the EFFICACY claim may appear to be premature. However, no, I am not new to the hair growth arena. We made the observation well over a year ago. For me, as a scientist in the digital age, a few months of apprenticeship is already more than enough time to become an expert in hair follicle biology, or any other focus of specialized research and knowledge. I have an intuition based on everything I've learned over 30 years as a clinician-scientist (and mouse geneticist with a PhD in Molecular Pharmacology) that some version of Follicept at the right dose and right dosing regimen will be shown to be safe and effective in a short but rigorous prospective randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study. And I think we will have an answer sometime in June-July. It may not be "THE answer.""

He already admitted that it is premature, but explained that he has an intuitive feeling that this may be the answer based on years of experience working in mice and years of experience in science in general. He is humble enough to admit that he may be wrong, but that he will wait and see the results. He already addressed your concerns before you asked it.

----------


## zeos

> I understand that their transdermal technology has the ability to transfer molecules of 22 kDa across the skin. If Follicept were to use AAPE in their gel as it is FDA approved and its merely hundreds of proteins that are below the threshold of 22kDa but must be injected otherwise, would that be the key instead of IGF-1?


 
Can somebody answer this?

----------


## serenemoon

> Can somebody answer this?


 They say they will test those other pathways if IGF-1 does not work. Hope that helps.

----------


## Afghanwig

> He already admitted that it is premature, but explained that he has an intuitive feeling that this may be the answer based on years of experience working in mice and years of experience in science in general. He is humble enough to admit that he may be wrong, but that he will wait and see the results. He already addressed your concerns before you asked it.


 On their website they say:  Follicept grows hair even after you stop using it. Can't say the same for rogaine".  Why say that if you are unsure that it even works on humans ?

----------


## serenemoon

> On their website they say:  Follicept grows hair even after you stop using it. Can't say the same for rogaine".  Why say that if you are unsure that it even works on humans ?


 Er....cos that is what they noticed in the mice trials? And so they thought hmmm, Rogaine works on this rat, when rogaine usage is stopped the rat hair falls off. Hmm, hold up, Rogaine does the SAME TO HUMANS! So MAYBE, if IGF-1 grows hair even after stopping it on the rat, maybe it can do the same for humans too! Hmm, let's try it and see on Humans and see what the results are in June-July! Yeah!!

Like he said, he is going based on what he feels and what he has seen. We will see if the claim is right or not soon. But do remember, the pictures they are showing are rat hair, so it is not like we don't know that it is rats they are talking about. They have been more than honest about everything, so let's wait and see.

----------


## Afghanwig

> Er....cos that is what they noticed in the mice trials? And so they thought hmmm, Rogaine works on this rat, when rogaine usage is stopped the rat hair falls off. Hmm, hold up, Rogaine does the SAME TO HUMANS! So MAYBE, if IGF-1 grows hair even after stopping it on the rat, maybe it can do the same for humans too! Hmm, let's try it and see on Humans and see what the results are in June-July! Yeah!!


 So you would disagree that such a statement on their website is at least highly misleading ? I'd rather make it   Rogaine has proven to grow hairs on humans. Cant say the same for follicept !

----------


## serenemoon

> So you would disagree that such a statement on their website is at least highly misleading ? I'd rather make it   Rogaine has proven to grow hairs on humans. Cant say the same for follicept !


 LMAO. That is actually funny. I laughed. LOOL. +1 for the humor. But, I don't think it is misleading because everything is out there and they have said it is rat hair. Now it would be misleading if they were SELLING the product to us already with that claim, and saying that they know it grows hair on humans. But man, we are about to find out soon anyway in a few weeks about humans, so why don't we just wait?

----------


## Delphi

> LOL people are now accusing others on the follicept forum of being me  Anyway they switched to a moderation queue there now: only posts that they like will appear on their website. I posted this this morning but it never got through


 Thats rich! So Devon the guy who posted that there would be no censorship on Follicepts blog has "censored" an innocuous comment simply because it makes him uncomfortable.

This is a quote from Devon on Follicept's blog: 
"Thanks guys! *No censorship here*. They have their opinions and whatnot, and they are entitled to them. I understand their skepticism and hesitation, and support it. Just not the attacks.

----------


## serenemoon

Arashi, since you tried to post something will a link it it, it will end up in moderation section because people have been trying to advertise there using links..Try to post without any links, it will immediately appear.

And you said "Maybe it's nothing, but I found it quite weird that A) that image in the background in the video didnt match with the forum."

What do you mean? They have only had the forum for 10 days or so...and I am not sure why you say it doesn't look like the Follicept forum? What are the differences that you see?

Also, Arashi, would you be satisfied if he did it with a newspaper? lol. showing the date?

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi, Did you try to post something with a link in it? If so, it will end up in moderation section because people have been trying to advertise there using links..Try to post without any links, it will immediately appear.


 Yeah see my post on the previous page. I posted a link to a screenshot. Maybe there's a logical explanation to it all, just would like to hear it from Devon.

----------


## stan

what is wrong with you guys? some people come up and try to crack this and all that you can be is negative to them, its one thing to be critical and other to be so negative.If it works it works, GREAT!! if it doesnt it doesnt, ours lives will still be the same, we have nothing to lose from this but everything to gain. Lets just be supportive and see how things turn out. We need to act better as a community, dont go whining the next time saying people dont care about baldness if you show such attitude, that too to the well respected researchers in the field. SMFH!!

Perhaps you guys are used to being bald and miserable.

----------


## bigentries

This thing will work, 100% guarantee

Why do I say this? Because if it doesn't work, their legitimacy gets absolutely destroyed, specially after a spokesperson told an skeptic that he would "kiss his former bald spot". Who would want to associate with people who act in a so unprofessional matter in the future?

There is no way they don't show something. At this point, unless verified by a credible third party, the dudes in the trials could turn into werewolves and I still would suspect the validity of their results

----------


## nameless

> They say they will test those other pathways if IGF-1 does not work. Hope that helps.


 I definitely think they should try AAPE in their vehicle and AAPE is already FDA approved from what I understand. That would be awesome.

----------


## hairisbeautiful

From my understanding, DHT blocks IGF-1 from binding to the hair to promote growth, which is why men who are balding have higher serum levels of IGF-1. Finasteride has been clinically proven to raise levels of IGF-1 in the the dermal papillae for people who get significant results. There haven't been any significant trials completed on whether or not injecting IGF-1 into the scalp can reverse balding. It is all speculation at this point and I'm not going to listen to some random forum user saying that he had injected IGF-1 into his scalp without results. They probably did it wrong or had no idea on the science behind it.  And I had asked about AAPE, but the fact that there are hundreds of proteins does not mean that they will all have a positive impact on reversal of balding-in fact for all we know some could have a negative impact. No one has tried this method and Dr Hsu has access to other doctors and trials that us forum users don't have access to. Take a look at creatine for example. Levels of DHT skyrocket, while levels of IGF-1 magically raise as well(Where did all this magical IGF-1 come from?!?). It can't merely be a coincidence. These guys have a hunch. Everyone has been searching for these magical chemicals to regrow hair, while all of this time the answer is 100% in the body, whether it be IGF-1 or not. I have yet to receive a degree in the scientific field, but their method makes sense to me-based on their confidence and the simple studies. I love to see all the negative speculation from those who are not credited in the scientific field, as they fail to provide their degrees and published studies. Is it merely satisfaction shooting down people on the forums who do not have as good as an understanding of AGA as you? Nonetheless, if you really think that this product is crap, let us see what you have to offer!

----------


## Arashi

> I definitely think they should try AAPE in their vehicle and AAPE is already FDA approved from what I understand. That would be awesome.


 Literally ANYTHING would be better than IGF-1 ! Minox, Fina, AAPE or other growthfactors. Anything would be better than the growth factor LEAST associated with hair growth: http://i.imgur.com/ouAGMWB.png

----------


## serenemoon

> I definitely think they should try AAPE in their vehicle and AAPE is already FDA approved from what I understand. That would be awesome.


 Hmm..if they used it in the vehicle would they still be able to register as homeopathic? It is a good idea, I think after IGF-1 results, if they feel like they will have to improve, AAPE is definitely the way to go.

----------


## serenemoon

> Literally ANYTHING would be better than IGF-1 ! Minox, Fina, AAPE or other growthfactors. Anything would be better than the growth factor LEAST associated with hair growth: http://i.imgur.com/ouAGMWB.png


 Which paper is this from? I saw this from Baldy's post, but looking at again, I need exact context. Maybe Baldy sees this and responds, if Arashi does not know.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Literally ANYTHING would be better than IGF-1 ! Minox, Fina, AAPE or other growthfactors. Anything would be better than the growth factor LEAST associated with hair growth: http://i.imgur.com/ouAGMWB.png


 What's the point man? They're testing it now. 

If it doesn't work, no harm done. You can go back to being a miserable bald jerk.

I for one am thankful that somebody is testing this. I really don't see the downside to them testing this....it's much more interesting than the typical garbage at-home "testing" (really a stretch to even call it that) we see done by forum members.

If they put out really ambiguous results and try to sell bottles for $100, then you can piss and moan and come in the save the day. Until then, go outside and get some fresh air.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Which paper is this from? I saw this from Baldy's post, but looking at again, I need exact context. Maybe Baldy sees this and responds, if Arashi does not know.


 Dude, this is completely irrelevant and a waste of your time. Whether you (or anyone else) reads this paper or spends another minute researching IGF-1 does not matter--- because they are testing this RIGHT NOW..... so you can read this paper 100 times (or not) and they're still going to release the ACTUAL RESULTS OF THE SPECIFIC HYPOTHESIS WE ARE DEBATING in the next 2-4 weeks.

so sit back, relax, and lets see what they come up with (or don't come up with).

wasting time desperately trying to debate this while they're still a window for debate is-- beyond a waste of time.

----------


## jamesst11

Oh man, why is the same thing that happened with the last post happening with this post?

----------


## Thinning@30

> If the results are clearly ambiguous


 I just love this phrase, BTW.




> Run a half-azzed trial, using concentrations so low the FDA will turn a blind eye to them and generate results that are ambiguous at best. Trial feedback will be something to this effect: "wow, my shedding completely stopped", "my hair feels so much fuller", "i'm maintaining and no side effects!". Young desperate guys will come running with their wallets out and hopes up.


 This is precisely what I'm afraid will happen with Follicept. We've seen the exact same thing before. Just read the testimonials on the website for TRX2. "It totally stopped my hair fall (almost)!" Also, a lot of scammers _say_ they'll eventually perform a real trial with all due scientific rigor.  In fact, Nigam even promised he would publish an article in a respected peer-reviewed journal. We're still waiting on that one.  You just have to wonder about the ethics of people who make bold statements and try to build hype over a treatment that is not yet proven, let alone contemplate selling it. Scammers thrive on people who want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

----------


## hairisbeautiful

Again, the fact that you are comparing a doctor from India to a company funded by the University of Florida is plain ignorance. The beautiful thing about America is that if it were to be a scam, they wouldn't post false pictures because that would get them in trouble. The FTC would be all over them. Most snake oil companies only have false testimonies backing them up, false pictures will land some good money in the hands of those who are hurt. Please understand the claims you are making are false, and if you are really that offended by this call a lawyer to call in the FTC!
"Young desperate guys will come running with their wallets out and hopes up." Their wallets would be opened to receive the money that the FTC sends them for being butt hurt.

----------


## amadeus

Its amazing how naive you guys are! The FTC is not going to spend the time or resources to go after a small time company like this. LOL. Thats what these companies rely on. Now, if enough complaints  are filed, they might be contacted by the state, but even then they will most likely be instructed to change their marketing language and maybe get a stern warning letter and thats a big maybe, especially if they market as a cosmetic.




> Again, the fact that you are comparing a doctor from India to a company funded by the University of Florida is plain ignorance. The beautiful thing about America is that if it were to be a scam, they wouldn't post false pictures because that would get them in trouble. The FTC would be all over them. Most snake oil companies only have false testimonies backing them up, false pictures will land some good money in the hands of those who are hurt. Please understand the claims you are making are false, and if you are really that offended by this call a lawyer to call in the FTC!
> "Young desperate guys will come running with their wallets out and hopes up." Their wallets would be opened to receive the money that the FTC sends them for being butt hurt.

----------


## Thinning@30

> Again, the fact that you are comparing a doctor from India to a company funded by the University of Florida is plain ignorance. The beautiful thing about America is that if it were to be a scam, they wouldn't post false pictures because that would get them in trouble. The FTC would be all over them. Most snake oil companies only have false testimonies backing them up, false pictures will land some good money in the hands of those who are hurt. Please understand the claims you are making are false, and if you are really that offended by this call a lawyer to call in the FTC!


 Wow!  This is so hopelessly naive, I don't even know where to begin with it.  

Silly me! Unlike in India, American MDs and PhDs would never get away with peddling dubious and unproven treatments <cough> Oz. And obviously in America we have no hair loss scams thanks to the FTC.  Ah well, I'm off to go buy some more Provillus, Capixyl, Doo Grow, Bioregenerative Sciences Hair Serum, and Spectral F7. Maybe I'll pick up a new laser helmet while I'm at it.  I'll skip the TRX2 this time though--I don't want my hair to get too thick.  Besides, they're from third world England where consumer protection is a joke.  Who knows if their photos or testimonials are legit?  And anyway, it's my patriotic duty to buy American when it comes to hair loss products!

----------


## Keki

I hope we will be in the situation to carefully think about a purchase, sadly this is not the case, not a single hair yet, and i wish to know how they are supposed to check for vellus at least, they took good quality pictures but those are good for 6months or more results, not for early vellus check

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## Arashi

> Wow!  This is so hopelessly naive, I don't even know where to begin with it.  
> 
> Silly me! Unlike in India, American MDs and PhDs would never get away with peddling dubious and unproven treatments <cough> Oz. And obviously in America we have no hair loss scams thanks to the FTC.  Ah well, I'm off to go buy some more Provillus, Capixyl, Doo Grow, Bioregenerative Sciences Hair Serum, and Spectral F7. Maybe I'll pick up a new laser helmet while I'm at it.  I'll skip the TRX2 this time though--I don't want my hair to get too thick.  Besides, they're from third world England where consumer protection is a joke.  Who knows if their photos or testimonials are legit?  And anyway, it's my patriotic duty to buy American when it comes to hair loss products!


 LOOOOOL I laughed out loud
+100000 for you !

----------


## Arashi

> Wow!  This is so hopelessly naive, I don't even know where to begin with it.  
> 
> Silly me! Unlike in India, American MDs and PhDs would never get away with peddling dubious and unproven treatments <cough> Oz. And obviously in America we have no hair loss scams thanks to the FTC.  Ah well, I'm off to go buy some more Provillus, Capixyl, Doo Grow, Bioregenerative Sciences Hair Serum, and Spectral F7. Maybe I'll pick up a new laser helmet while I'm at it.  I'll skip the TRX2 this time though--I don't want my hair to get too thick.  Besides, they're from third world England where consumer protection is a joke.  Who knows if their photos or testimonials are legit?  And anyway, it's my patriotic duty to buy American when it comes to hair loss products!


 In addition to this: AAPE !! It's now being sold by tons of clinics in the *US* (not (only) in India !!), marketed as a valid treatment for Alzheimer, Parkinson disease, MS and also hairloss, without a SINGLE piece of proof of effectiveness and the FDA doesn't even care. It's so bad that people are writing letters to the FDA to DO SOMETHING about it: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0501141358.htm

Saying all this doesnt happen in the US, is the most naive thing I've read on these forums lately, and wow, that's quite something !

----------


## serenemoon

Here you go Arashi. You get your answers.

Armani -

"Could you show us the area's where you're applying it a bit better and could you record the video in such a way that we know it wasn't recorded 4 months ago ??

Follicept Mod  an hour ago

"Will do in the next video update this week sometime."

"Sorry some comments were pending- I just found where to approve them! Like I said, no censorship here, Arashi/Armani  :Smile: "

----------


## Arashi

> Here you go Arashi. You get your answers.
> 
> Armani -
> 
> "Could you show us the area's where you're applying it a bit better and could you record the video in such a way that we know it wasn't recorded 4 months ago ??
> 
> Follicept Mod • an hour ago
> 
> "Will do in the next video update this week sometime."
> ...


 Ok well at least he cleared that up then. He doesnt need to read a newspaper, lol, just put up the current forum in the background with the current posts, that's all ! Thanks.

----------


## hairisbeautiful

Again, The fact that you're comparing Prometheon Pharma to companies that try to sell that crap is a joke. If Prometheon Pharma were to post false results, their scientific integrity would be shot down and the University of Florida would disown them. So before you compare the person who made a laser helmet to people who are trying to make life easier for not only hair loss sufferers but for diabetes patients as well, you are a sadly mistaken person.

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## hairisbeautiful

You do understand that they're doing this for us, right?

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## bigentries

> You do understand that they're doing this for us, right?


 LOL, that's the most fanboyish thing I've read in a while

So what if they have the backing of a university? Doctor Oz works for the Columbia University and he is free to push any scam he wants. I've read the university turns a blind eye to all his quackery because he brings good money and publicity

----------


## Afghanwig

> LOL, that's the most fanboyish thing I've read in a while
> 
> So what if they have the backing of a university? Doctor Oz works for the Columbia University and he is free to push any scam he wants. I've read the university turns a blind eye to all his quackery because he brings good money and publicity


 But what kind of 'backing' do they even have ? I thought that the only connection to the university is that their office is located on space hosted by the university ? I might be wrong there though but I couldnt find any other, current, connection.

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## David7

"Further Follicept civil conversation"

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## Afghanwig

> you do understand that they're doing this for us, right?


 lol

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## serenemoon

> Ok well at least he cleared that up then. He doesnt need to read a newspaper, lol, just put up the current forum in the background with the current posts, that's all ! Thanks.


 
"Armani  a day ago

Hi Devon, I asked before but you didnt reply: could you in your new video this week show the last forum posts on your monitor in the back ground ? So we know the video wasn't shot 4 months ago. The monitor in the background in your last video doesnt show forum post, I compared them, this is NOT from this forum: http://postimg.org/image/jhv4z... That profile picture doesnt appear here in combination with that text !?!?! So I wonder what it's showing ? Anyway I think this is very important to show the last forum posts on the pc in the background the next time, so we know this is a recent video and not one from 4 months ago. Thanks !


Reply

Share 

        −
    Avatar
    Follicept Mod  4 hours ago

    Sorry this was pending for moderation, I guess because of the link. Just found where to approve posts. Yeah I will happily provide proof of date with the next update, though you should be able to tell with the file properties or whatever. The monitor on the left is definitely this forum, on the right is some file I was opening. But yes will post an update video with clear proof in the next day or two in my travels."

 :Big Grin:

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## cr1mson

lol Arashi is something else. The dudes obsession levels are unreal

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## thejack

> lol Arashi is something else. The dudes obsession levels are unreal


 zero emotional intelligence lol

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## follicept

Been a while, but just thought I would drop this here: 

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000376780

Just happened live an hour ago!!!

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## Arashi

> Been a while, but just thought I would drop this here: 
> 
> http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000376780
> 
> Just happened live an hour ago!!!


 You made it onto the hall of fame, just like: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Bkj8351pg

Congrats anyway  :Wink:

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## StayThick

> Been a while, but just thought I would drop this here: 
> 
> http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000376780
> 
> Just happened live an hour ago!!!


 Devon, appreciate the updates dude, but I personally can give two flying hoots about an insulin patch you hope to get to market by 2019. How about we know more about Follicept and how the trials are going for this gel you've developed I believe will do absolutely nothing for hairloss.

Granted this is a hairloss forum, but your hair loss is significant in my opinion and I can guarantee (albeit early) your IGF-1 formulation has done absolutely nothing for you at this point hair wise.

I won't and can't be mad at you if and when your gel fails. You're doing a hell of a lot more than most companies when it comes to trying to solve this absolute curse men and woman suffer with. So kudos to you on that front. 

I cannot see any way your IGF-1 topical will do a damn thing for anyone fighting MPB. I for one will not be on my knees praying for this to work like the other desperate males that frequent your personal forum when I believe your companies motive is to generate cash flow to fund your insulin patch and capitalize on a very, very desperate but cash cow crowd.  It's my opinion.

I wish you all the best. I live near UF and would be happy to stop by and be a participant in your "trial" and properly document my results for this forum if desired. I know how everyone on here judges photos and can easily post my progress to everyone's satisfaction on here.

Wish you all best.

----------


## follicept

> Devon, appreciate the updates dude, but I personally can give two flying hoots about an insulin patch you hope to get to market by 2019. How about we know more about Follicept and how the trials are going for this gel you've developed I believe will do absolutely nothing for hairloss.
> 
> Granted this is a hairloss forum, but your hair loss is significant in my opinion and I can guarantee (albeit early) your IGF-1 formulation has done absolutely nothing for you at this point hair wise.
> 
> I won't and can't be mad at you if and when your gel fails. You're doing a hell of a lot more than most companies when it comes to trying to solve this absolute curse men and woman suffer with. So kudos to you on that front. 
> 
> I cannot see any way your IGF-1 topical will do a damn thing for anyone fighting MPB. I for one will not be on my knees praying for this to work like the other desperate males that frequent your personal forum when I believe your companies motive is to generate cash flow to fund your insulin patch and capitalize on a very, very desperate but cash cow crowd.  It's my opinion.
> 
> I wish you all the best. I live near UF and would be happy to stop by and be a participant in your "trial" and properly document my results for this forum if desired. I know how everyone on here judges photos and can easily post my progress to everyone's satisfaction on here.
> ...


 Haha clearly. Come on by. You have my email address (or can easily find it) and the company address. I will be back in the office Tuesday the 12th. Will continue to update trial progress but this is one of the most exciting moments of my life personally and professionally, and believe demonstrates a level of authenticity and veracity worthy of sharing.

----------


## jamesst11

If you are so certain that this formula is a waste of your time, then why are you wasting your time being so passive aggressive on here?  I understand that you, like the rest of us, are fed up with those companies that are feeding off of the insecurities of balding men... but is it Devon's lab you really need to target?  They are a well known molecular bio lab dude.  I first hand have spent years working in labs just like this.  They are not trying to become cash rich off of some snake oil scam.  The members in their "trial"  are all bald as hell.  They will post pictures of the results and if the results are bad, then they probably won't market it... if they do, let the fools buy it and the intelligent ones stay away.  There are MUCH, *MUCH* WORST people in the hair loss industry, even if Follicept is a little trigger happy on their formula.  I KNOW, like many people on here... I was botched by one of them... Why don't you focus your energy on them.  




> Devon, appreciate the updates dude, but I personally can give two flying hoots about an insulin patch you hope to get to market by 2019. How about we know more about Follicept and how the trials are going for this gel you've developed I believe will do absolutely nothing for hairloss.
> 
> Granted this is a hairloss forum, but your hair loss is significant in my opinion and I can guarantee (albeit early) your IGF-1 formulation has done absolutely nothing for you at this point hair wise.
> 
> I won't and can't be mad at you if and when your gel fails. You're doing a hell of a lot more than most companies when it comes to trying to solve this absolute curse men and woman suffer with. So kudos to you on that front. 
> 
> I cannot see any way your IGF-1 topical will do a damn thing for anyone fighting MPB. I for one will not be on my knees praying for this to work like the other desperate males that frequent your personal forum when I believe your companies motive is to generate cash flow to fund your insulin patch and capitalize on a very, very desperate but cash cow crowd.  It's my opinion.
> 
> I wish you all the best. I live near UF and would be happy to stop by and be a participant in your "trial" and properly document my results for this forum if desired. I know how everyone on here judges photos and can easily post my progress to everyone's satisfaction on here.
> ...

----------


## Thinning@30

> If Prometheon Pharma were to post false results


 I'm not concerned that they will post "false" results.  I'm concerned that they will post inconclusive and ambiguous results and then use camera trickery, marketing hype, and people's vulnerabilities to sell an unproven product just like TRX2 did.




> their scientific integrity would be shot down and the University of Florida would disown them


 Right. Just like how Oxford University disowned Thomas Whitfield or the University of California disowned Gregory Maguire.




> You do understand that they're doing this for us, right?


 Good God! These people aren't selfless angels in lab suits. They're part of a for-profit corporation. They want us to spend our hard-earned money on their hair loss product. Get a grip!

Do you honestly think the skeptics on this forum are nothing but a bunch of balding curmudgeons who want to quash a promising new treatment? You know, I WANT to be wrong about Follicept. In fact, I HOPE I'm wrong about Follicept. I would LOVE to be wrong about Follicept. 

I'm upset because I see this whole thing playing out the same way TRX2 did. Make bold claims before there has even been a trial. Get people excited. Sell a product while the proof of efficacy is "pending." Go about the in-house trial in such a haphazard way (i.e. no controls, no hair counts or buzz cuts) that we're unlikely to get clear evidence of failure or success. The subjects will grow their hair out, their hair will be longer in the next set of photos, the angles and lighting will be different, some will have different hair styles or combovers. The optimists on these forums will interpret this as evidence that Follicept at least maintains and all rush out to buy it, and it will be a year or two before the community concludes that it doesn't work and dismisses it as another scam.

----------


## StayThick

> I'm not concerned that they will post "false" results.  I'm concerned that they will post inconclusive and ambiguous results and then use camera trickery, marketing hype, and people's vulnerabilities to sell an unproven product just like TRX2 did.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Just like how Oxford University disowned Thomas Whitfield or the University of California disowned Gregory Maguire.
> 
> 
> 
> Good God! These people aren't selfless angels in lab suits. They're part of a for-profit corporation. They want us to spend our hard-earned money on their hair loss product. Get a grip!
> ...


 Unfortunately, I agree with everything you just said. On the money.

----------


## joachim

> Devon, appreciate the updates dude, but I personally can give two flying hoots about an insulin patch you hope to get to market by 2019. How about we know more about Follicept and how the trials are going for this gel you've developed I believe will do absolutely nothing for hairloss.
> 
> Granted this is a hairloss forum, but your hair loss is significant in my opinion and I can guarantee (albeit early) your IGF-1 formulation has done absolutely nothing for you at this point hair wise.
> 
> I won't and can't be mad at you if and when your gel fails. You're doing a hell of a lot more than most companies when it comes to trying to solve this absolute curse men and woman suffer with. So kudos to you on that front. 
> 
> I cannot see any way your IGF-1 topical will do a damn thing for anyone fighting MPB. I for one will not be on my knees praying for this to work like the other desperate males that frequent your personal forum when I believe your companies motive is to generate cash flow to fund your insulin patch and capitalize on a very, very desperate but cash cow crowd.  It's my opinion.
> 
> I wish you all the best. I live near UF and would be happy to stop by and be a participant in your "trial" and properly document my results for this forum if desired. I know how everyone on here judges photos and can easily post my progress to everyone's satisfaction on here.
> ...


 lol. first you clearly state you don't believe in the follicept gel at all and even insult them by saying their motive is to generate money to fund the insulin patch, and then you add you would be in for a trial and documenting the process. 
i don't understand you guys.

hairloss aside, if anyone here still believes that the insulin patch isn't a great thing and changing the world for the better, then it's purely ignorant. if you saw the video devon just posted, you see that the whole bunch of needles is replaced by a single patch (for 1 week).
if that's not fantastic i don't know what else is. assuming devon is no liar they already have 1 million of funding for the patch. no need to make a quick buck on a scammy hairloss product.

----------


## bigentries

> lol. first you clearly state you don't believe in the follicept gel at all and even insult them by saying their motive is to generate money to fund the insulin patch, and then you add you would be in for a trial and documenting the process. 
> i don't understand you guys.
> 
> hairloss aside, if anyone here still believes that the insulin patch isn't a great thing and changing the world for the better, then it's purely ignorant. if you saw the video devon just posted, you see that the whole bunch of needles is replaced by a single patch (for 1 week).
> if that's not fantastic i don't know what else is. assuming devon is no liar they already have 1 million of funding for the patch. no need to make a quick buck on a scammy hairloss product.


 They are crowdfunding for the patch. More reasons to grow a cult status on hair loss forums

Some guys have already claimed they don't care if IGF doesn't work, they want whatever that patch is using to try it with things like RU and CB

----------


## StayThick

> lol. first you clearly state you don't believe in the follicept gel at all and even insult them by saying their motive is to generate money to fund the insulin patch, and then you add you would be in for a trial and documenting the process. 
> i don't understand you guys.
> 
> hairloss aside, if anyone here still believes that the insulin patch isn't a great thing and changing the world for the better, then it's purely ignorant. if you saw the video devon just posted, you see that the whole bunch of needles is replaced by a single patch (for 1 week).
> if that's not fantastic i don't know what else is. assuming devon is no liar they already have 1 million of funding for the patch. no need to make a quick buck on a scammy hairloss product.


 What from my comment doesn't make sense to you? Not believing there product will work wouldn't stop me from trialling it, especially considering I live right near the University of Florida campus and can essentially trial this to satisfy the forums expectations regarding how to properly document using the product via proper lighting, quality photos, etc. 

I don't understand how you're confused from that. Does offering to trial there gel change the fact I don't believe it will work? No! That's why I'm offering to trial it since that's what they are doing at moment to essentially prove to people like me it actually works to some degree...all mind you right near me! 

I don't understand why you can't understand or properly read such a simple statement. My theory regarding there motive is my opinion...all will be exposed soon enough.

----------


## follicept

> What from my comment doesn't make sense to you? Not believing there product will work wouldn't stop me from trialling it, especially considering I live right near the University of Florida campus and can essentially trial this to satisfy the forums expectations regarding how to properly document using the product via proper lighting, quality photos, etc. 
> 
> I don't understand how you're confused from that. Does offering to trial there gel change the fact I don't believe it will work? No! That's why I'm offering to trial it since that's what they are doing at moment mind you right near me!
> 
> I don't understand why you can't understand or properly read such a simple statement. My theory regarding there motive is my opinion...all will be exposed soon enough.


 Told you. Call me/ come in on Tuesday.

----------


## Gerhard

> Some guys have already claimed they don't care if IGF doesn't work, they want whatever that patch is using to try it with things like RU and CB


 Basically what I've been wondering. If IGF unfortunately doesn't work wouldn't this patch technically be revolutionary for delivering larger molecules like CB?

----------


## serenemoon

> I'm upset because I see this whole thing playing out the same way TRX2 did. Make bold claims before there has even been a trial. Get people excited. Sell a product while the proof of efficacy is "pending." Go about the in-house trial in such a haphazard way (i.e. no controls, no hair counts or buzz cuts) that we're unlikely to get clear evidence of failure or success. The subjects will grow their hair out, their hair will be longer in the next set of photos, the angles and lighting will be different, some will have different hair styles or combovers. The optimists on these forums will interpret this as evidence that Follicept at least maintains and all rush out to buy it, and it will be a year or two before the community concludes that it doesn't work and dismisses it as another scam.


 You are upset before you see what has happened. I understand you are tired, but you are upset before results are even released. It is a bit silly.

Congrats Devon! This is awesome!! This is definitely a great moment for you! 

And StayThick, here is your opportunity to see if these guys are fake or not. Take it. Seriously.

----------


## Gerhard

> Told you. Call me/ come in on Tuesday.


 There you go, StayThick. Give us the scoop, brother.

----------


## stayhopeful

> There you go, StayThick. Give us the scoop, brother.


 Are you serious? Get your butt over there StayThick ASAP u lucky guy

----------


## DanWS

I think it would be great for everyone if StayThick could be a participant in the trials. Member of BTT since 2012, hundreds of posts, obviously credible, sceptical of the treatment but open-minded enough to participate... just the ideal candidate for documenting his progress here.  Devon is more than open to the idea - let's get it done  :Cool:

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

> I'm not concerned that they will post "false" results.  I'm concerned that they will post inconclusive and ambiguous results and then use camera trickery, marketing hype, and people's vulnerabilities to sell an unproven product just like TRX2 did.


 I think this is a very valid concern, but look at some of the subjects they are including in their internal trial:
http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/...506_dz3k0v.jpg

I don't think this is a very good subject if you are knowingly trying to market a scam.

----------


## Keki

This arguments make sense when and if they show up massive regrowth of hairs or at least the same as minox+ propecia, i don't think we will ever see that, and they still didn't update the pics

And btw it's 10 days and ofc not a single vellus yet, so the till now the trial is far away from a scam, trick and camera light shit, i don't get why so many people are afraid of scam, there are thousands of hairloss products in the maket which doesn't work and nobody care, if i go to a pharmacy i can buy 50 different kind of treatment and they don't even provide fake pics lol, just a random microscopic *in vitro at the end of the box or not even that.

let me see those "fake" hairs first before buy a pitchfork

----------


## Swooping

Devon you see this; https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...41-pictures%21 ? You see those clear visual results even in bad quality photos? Good luck! Let's see how far you will come with follicept  :Wink: .

----------


## serenemoon

> I think it would be great for everyone if StayThick could be a participant in the trials. Member of BTT since 2012, hundreds of posts, obviously credible, sceptical of the treatment but open-minded enough to participate... just the ideal candidate for documenting his progress here.  Devon is more than open to the idea - let's get it done


 Exactly. That should put a lot of naysayers to rest too. Only a lowlife would continue to accuse Follicept of being a scam if StayThick grows a nice amount of hair.  :Smile:

----------


## Arashi

> I think it would be great for everyone if StayThick could be a participant in the trials. Member of BTT since 2012, hundreds of posts, obviously credible, sceptical of the treatment but open-minded enough to participate... just the ideal candidate for documenting his progress here.  Devon is more than open to the idea - let's get it done


 Sceptical ? A few posts ago he didn't sound too sceptical in fact he claimed lighting etc doesnt even matter and we shouldnt 'complain' about it: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ht=#post206017 Why the sudden turn ? And even weirder, why the sudden turn from Follicept ? They said they didnt want to allow forum members into the trail, cause it was 'dangerous' or 'legally difficult' and nonsense like that. So why the turn ? And why just 1 forum member ? I mean, you either do it good with 20 forum members or do nothing at all.

----------


## Hemo

There's a difference between mailing 20 samples to random forum members and having a local person trialing the product (after meeting them in person and potentially having in-person check-ins).  

Honestly, this thread has turned into the old one.  Hopefully Winston just locks this until more long term updates/results are posted.

----------


## just2hairs

> Sceptical ? A few posts ago he didn't sound too sceptical in fact he claimed lighting etc doesnt even matter and we shouldnt 'complain' about it: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ht=#post206017 Why the sudden turn ? And even weirder, why the sudden turn from Follicept ? They said they didnt want to allow forum members into the trail, cause it was 'dangerous' or 'legally difficult' and nonsense like that. So why the turn ? And why just 1 forum member ? I mean, you either do it good with 20 forum members or do nothing at all.


 Participating at Follicept's facility is much different than sending trial samples out to some random forum members.

Why don't you go there and participate?  The time you spend here is much more time-consuming isn't it?

----------


## serenemoon

> Sceptical ? A few posts ago he didn't sound too sceptical in fact he claimed lighting etc doesnt even matter and we shouldnt 'complain' about it: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ht=#post206017 Why the sudden turn ? And even weirder, why the sudden turn from Follicept ? They said they didnt want to allow forum members into the trail, cause it was 'dangerous' or 'legally difficult' and nonsense like that. So why the turn ? And why just 1 forum member ? I mean, you either do it good with 20 forum members or do nothing at all.


 Arashi, dude, you are insatiable. They said they did not want to mail sample to forum members who live far away. They are open to people who live CLOSE by, people who they can monitor closely. StayThick has been a member here since 2012, what are you gonna say next? That Follicept paid him to pretend to be "against" Follicept, and then publicize false results? Jesus christ dude.

----------


## just2hairs

> There's a difference between mailing 20 samples to random forum members and having a local person trialing the product (after meeting them in person and potentially having in-person check-ins).  
> 
> Honestly, this thread has turned into the old one.  Hopefully Winston just locks this until more long term updates/results are posted.


 Most of us are on the same page.   :Smile:

----------


## just2hairs

Arashi, the boogie man is under your bed...watchout!

----------


## cr1mson

> Sceptical ? A few posts ago he didn't sound too sceptical in fact he claimed lighting etc doesnt even matter and we shouldnt 'complain' about it: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ht=#post206017 Why the sudden turn ? And even weirder, why the sudden turn from Follicept ? They said they didnt want to allow forum members into the trail, cause it was 'dangerous' or 'legally difficult' and nonsense like that. So why the turn ? And why just 1 forum member ? I mean, you either do it good with 20 forum members or do nothing at all.


 Jesus Christ, they don't have to DO anything. Your obsession with these guys is beyond embarrassing. Let them run their trial, when and if they fail, then you can happily run your mouth. Until then, no one really cares to hear you say the same thing over and over again.

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi, dude, you are insatiable. They said they did not want to mail sample to forum members who live far away. They are open to people who live CLOSE by, people who they can monitor closely. StayThick has been a member here since 2012, what are you gonna say next? That Follicept paid him to pretend to be "against" Follicept, and then publicize false results? Jesus christ dude.


 Well the guy most certainly is not 'sceptical' like you said, just read the post that I linked, that's the opposite of sceptical (naieve). And why only people close by, can you explain that please ? Thanks.

----------


## just2hairs

Even if Follicept fails, Arashi's argument is still not valid until they actually scammed people.  His argument is that Follicept is scamming people.  Failing and scamming are two completely different actions.

----------


## serenemoon

> Even if Follicept fails, Arashi's argument is still not valid until they actually scammed people.  His argument is that Follicept is scamming people.  Failing and scamming are two completely different actions.


 +1. Failing and admitting is still noble in my book. I don't think anyone should put these guys down for trying.

----------


## StayThick

> Sceptical ? A few posts ago he didn't sound too sceptical in fact he claimed lighting etc doesnt even matter and we shouldnt 'complain' about it: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ht=#post206017 Why the sudden turn ? And even weirder, why the sudden turn from Follicept ? They said they didnt want to allow forum members into the trail, cause it was 'dangerous' or 'legally difficult' and nonsense like that. So why the turn ? And why just 1 forum member ? I mean, you either do it good with 20 forum members or do nothing at all.


 Arashi, it's official...you are a complete basket-case. I now see why others on this forum say what they do about you. What exactly are you implying with that statement? I actually take what you said personally. 

Do you live in Florida where these trials are being conducted? Has anyone from FL on this forum offered or asked to be in this trial? I figured I had nothing to lose by offering to do this considering I'm a few hours drive away from their actual facility. Did you offer to be a participant and offer to spend your time and resources to ensure you can be at their facility for multiple visits to track progress? My god dude get a grip. I've been here since 2012. Look at my posts. In fact, I don't know why I feel the need to defend myself to you, while Devon and others laugh at our community here, all while forum members now question other senior members on here and their integrity. I mean no wonder we are a joke to those on the outside. 

I have yet to speak with Devon regarding being an official participant in this trial. Quite frankly, I think it's fantastic, yet I'm shocked Devon would welcome a forum member like myself who has been active on here for many years to participate, including being very outspoken regarding my skepticism on this treatment and their motive. I think that speaks volume for Devon no? For him to say come on by let's do this, I think is personally forcing me to rethink my opinion on what they are trying to do here.

Wouldn't you agree that having a senior level member from this forum actually participating in this trial would be extremely beneficial for the group?  Why not encourage and support the possibility someone like myself can trial this and post progress. I don't understand YOUR motives on this subject.

Devon, please relay to me your contact information so we can coordinate for Tuesday. I believe I overstated how close I am to you, as I will have to drive a few hours north to see you at UF and I will need to take the time off work. However, something I am more than willing to do for myself and everyone on this forum to see if this product has potential or not. 

Devon, I'll send you an email on your website with my contact information. I look forward to HOPEFULLY meeting you and the crew at Follicept and to trial this treatment for myself and the BTT community. I also have several questions I want to ask ahead of time. Thank you.

----------


## joel203

I honestly do not know why Arashi is bothered so much, the only explanation is he has too much time on his hands and is bored; if you feel it's a scam then don't buy it... no one is putting a gun to your head. Wait till the results, if it fails it fails if its good and you're still convinced it's a scam heck wait till people on the forum try it and see there results no big deal. 
We have a team of good people working hard to try and find a solution to this disease, they do not owe you happiness nor do they owe you any favours , no one has a clue what the outcome will be ( funnily enough I do not personally think it'll work) but I respect Devon and his team for attempting to find a solution and wish the best of luck to him and his team for both this and his diabetic treatment. 
So until then stop being a broken record, find a hobby, get a girlfriend and wait till the results to comment on your opinion.

----------


## Keki

OCD _cough cough_

----------


## Arashi

> What exactly are you implying with that statement? I actually take what you said personally.


 You said:




> Will I buy it if I see the slightest bit of improvement in Devon's scalp? Yup. Why? Because I'm a balding desperate guy


 And then people say you're a showcase of a sceptic ? If that's scepticism, then what's naivety in your opinion ?

----------


## Afghanwig

Well in just 2 days we'll know who's right, cause then the first new hairs will emerge according to Follicept !

----------


## serenemoon

> Well in just 2 days we'll know who's right, cause then the first new hairs will emerge according to Follicept !


 I definitely don't think we are gonna see hair in 2 days though, I am going to say 2 months.

----------


## Afghanwig

> I definitely don't think we are gonna see hair in 2 days though, I am going to say 2 months.


 So you think you know better than Dr Hsu himself ?

----------


## serenemoon

> So you think you know better than Dr Hsu himself ?


 This is exactly what was said. "Papers suggest we could see results in as little as 12 days."

----------


## Afghanwig

> This is exactly what was said. "Papers suggest we could see results in as little as 12 days."


 So why do you think it would take 2 months then ?

----------


## serenemoon

> So why do you think it would take 2 months then ?


 My personal opinion is two months based on when people generally see results. I don't know, maybe we WILL see results in 2 days. I just happen to think that it will be 2 months.

----------


## Jagger

> This is exactly what was said. "Papers suggest we could see results in as little as 12 days."


 And those were in rat models, IIRC. Too bad it's not like facial hair, where it's back the next day.

----------


## Afghanwig

> I just happen to think that it will be 2 months.


 Thanks for your valuable insights then !

----------


## diffuseloser

Arashi clearly not content with ruining the Follicept threads for the rest of us and driving Devon away. Now, he's also over on Follicept forum spreading his paranoia and making us all look like buffoons. Even instigating that StayThick is on it too! Words fail me. Hope you're happy. Hair loss is the least of your problems buddy.

----------


## Afghanwig

> Arashi clearly not content with ruining the Follicept threads for the rest of us and driving Devon away. Now, he's also over on Follicept forum spreading his paranoia and making us all look like buffoons. Even instigating that StayThick is on it too! Words fail me. Hope you're happy. Hair loss is the least of your problems buddy.


 Devon actually said he left this board cause he didnt like the moderation queue here. Then Winston removed him from the queue and Devon broke the rules again 3 times in his 3 next posts so he was put back into the moderation queue. Devon never said he left because he hated the criticism here.

And as far as follicept's website, which posts are Arashi exactly ? I dont see any ?

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

Arashi, Afghanwig: Seriously!

I can appreciate some good old fashioned skepticism, but what are you two really up to? There is no way you are still here because you are concerned about the community blowing some money on a treatment that might not work. Why are you so hell bent on writing post after post about how you are convinced that follicept is a scam? We get it! We have all memorized your names by now. Please just give it a rest and lets wait for the results.

I'm starting to wonder if you have invested all your life savings in rogaine or something. Jeeeez!

I'm also starting to wonder if you two are the same person. Both of you always leave a space before your question marks...

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi, Afghanwig: Seriously!
> 
> I can appreciate some good old fashioned skepticism, but what are you two really up to? There is no way you are still here because you are concerned about the community blowing some money on a treatment that might not work. Why are you so hell bent on writing post after post about how you are convinced that follicept is a scam? We get it! We have all memorized your names by now. Please just give it a rest and lets wait for the results.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if you have invested all your life savings in rogaine or something. Jeeeez!
> 
> I'm also starting to wonder if you two are the same person. Both of you always leave a space before your question marks...


 LOL and you call me paranoid ?

----------


## bigentries

> Arashi, Afghanwig: Seriously!
> 
> I can appreciate some good old fashioned skepticism, but what are you two really up to? There is no way you are still here because you are concerned about the community blowing some money on a treatment that might not work. Why are you so hell bent on writing post after post about how you are convinced that follicept is a scam? We get it! We have all memorized your names by now. Please just give it a rest and lets wait for the results.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if you have invested all your life savings in rogaine or something. Jeeeez!
> 
> I'm also starting to wonder if you two are the same person. Both of you always leave a space before your question marks...


 The same can be said about the other side. Why are they are so offended? They reply to any sort of skepticism with venom

The reason the other follicept thread (and things like TRX2 and Pilox) grew so big is because ther supporters can't shut their mouth.

If they really believe in "wait and see" then shut up and come back when you can rub it into our face that you whiteknighted the cure. Let the people with a good track record to touch the subject.

If the thing works, then nothing the skeptics say will change the results, things either work or they don't

But if things don't work, we need heavy skepticism before the damage is done. "Wait and see" is useless if the community was already fooled before the supporters accepted defeat (or just hopped to another scam like many of follicept supporters)

----------


## Afghanwig

> Arashi, Afghanwig: Seriously!
> 
> I can appreciate some good old fashioned skepticism, but what are you two really up to? There is no way you are still here because you are concerned about the community blowing some money on a treatment that might not work. Why are you so hell bent on writing post after post about how you are convinced that follicept is a scam? We get it! We have all memorized your names by now. Please just give it a rest and lets wait for the results.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if you have invested all your life savings in rogaine or something. Jeeeez!
> 
> I'm also starting to wonder if you two are the same person. Both of you always leave a space before your question marks...


 Damn, you've got me there, Sherlock. I hope you won't find out I was behind the 9/11 attacks, shot Kennedy and that my real name actually is Elvis Presley.

----------


## serenemoon

> Damn, you've got me there, Sherlock. I hope you won't find out I was *behind the 9/11 attacks*, shot Kennedy and that my real name actually is Elvis Presley.


 LOL. Toooo EASY.

----------


## Afghanwig

Tuesday Devon is going to post photo's of his new hairline !

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Tuesday Devon is going to post photo's of his new hairline !


 ...And it's gonna be just where he left it

----------


## nameless

> Sceptical ? A few posts ago he didn't sound too sceptical in fact he claimed lighting etc doesnt even matter and we shouldnt 'complain' about it: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ht=#post206017 Why the sudden turn ? And even weirder, why the sudden turn from Follicept ? They said they didnt want to allow forum members into the trail, cause it was 'dangerous' or 'legally difficult' and nonsense like that. So why the turn ? And why just 1 forum member ? I mean, you either do it good with 20 forum members or do nothing at all.


 It isn't your place to tell Follicept what to do. That having been said, I think you have a partial valid point this time. They did say they weren't going to involve forum members so if they let Staythick in then they are, in fact, reversing their own decision. Also, I don't know Staythick so I don't know if he's trustworthy or not. All this having been said the main reason they didn't want to involve forum members is because we're scattered across the country and apparently this one guy, Staythick, is local to them. I don't know what to make of all of this.

----------


## nameless

> Well the guy most certainly is not 'sceptical' like you said, just read the post that I linked, that's the opposite of sceptical (naieve). And why only people close by, can you explain that please ? Thanks.


 
It's obvious why a forum member who lives close by is different from a forum member who's a long way away. But you are right that technically Follicept did reverse their own position. In this case since the person is close by I think it's understandable.

----------


## David7

I realy don't understand you people, why so much negativity? man if the product works and safe its wonderfull can't wait to use it but why the **** would you come here to bring people's hope  down ? What's the point? Hope it's a great thing if some people chose to put their hope on follicept  it's their choice only the product fail will change their view .
I personaly i'am happy to see people working on mpb and its great to see Follicept confidence but let us wait for the result, we will see what happens after that.

----------


## Keki

> I realy don't understand you people, why so much negativity? man if the product works and safe its wonderfull can't wait to use it but why the **** would you come here to bring people's hope  down ? What's the point? Hope it's a great thing if some people chose to put their hope on follicept  it's their choice only the product fail will change their view .
> I personaly i'am happy to see people working on mpb and its great to see Follicept confidence but let us wait for the result, we will see what happens after that.


 keep in mind this is an hairloss forum, the hell of internet, everyone here is entitled to say bullshit, everyone has 4 or 5 degree in every human activity and know everything from past to future, the world hate baldness so you will never find a women or have a real life or find happyness, when you get a women she will cheat you with the first nw1, you will have hard time to find a decent job and people will always think you are a creepy bastard, the scientific world doesn't push for a cure, propecia and minox are the best and nothing can beat them for the next 15 years at least, hair transplant is the only way to go, everything after a nw2 is unacceptable, pgd2 theory is bullshit, the others future treatments are worse then propecia or minox anyway so they are useless, the rats pubs are useless and every new product are 100% scam because we can't beat hairloss without hair cloning.

This is every international hairloss forum circlejerk, thx god there are lot of minor hairloss forum in europe where you can actually have a real discussion

----------


## brocktherock

> keep in mind this is an hairloss forum, the hell of internet, everyone here is entitled to say bullshit, everyone has 4 or 5 degree in every human activity and know everything from past to future, the world hate baldness so you will never find a women or have a real life or find happyness, when you get a women she will cheat you with the first nw1, you will have hard time to find a decent job and people will always think you are a creepy bastard, the scientific world doesn't push for a cure, propecia and minox are the best and nothing can beat them for the next 15 years at least, hair transplant is the only way to go, everything after a nw2 is unacceptable, pgd2 theory is bullshit, the others future treatments are worse then propecia or minox anyway so they are useless, the rats pubs are useless and every new product are 100% scam because we can't beat hairloss without hair cloning.
> 
> This is every international hairloss forum circlejerk, thx god there are lot of minor hairloss forum in europe where you can actually have a real discussion


  Then let it pan out as bullshit. At least it's not another laser helmet or dermarolling thread. Also if shiseidos current trial goes well then they said they will commercialize in 2018. There very well may be delays but it still may very well be a cure that's a few years away.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

Ah, Keki, that post made me laugh so hard!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Afghanwig

> I realy don't understand you people, why so much negativity?


 There's one thing worse than hairloss: people trying to make money out of other people's misery. And we've seen a lot of that here. In fact, every single time somebody came to this board, promoting their therapy, it has been like that!! If you think otherwise, show me 1 just successful commercial product out there, other than fin or minox.

These are not people who care about you, in fact, they couldn't care less about you! They only care about taking your money. And people with the kind of attitude you promote, facilitate that ! So we should be very very wary of every new therapy out there.

For the record, not talking about Follicept here, about them we're not sure yet but it certainly doesn't look good.




> Hope it's a great thing


 False hope is not. and when it takes your money and maybe even your health, then you're left worse than you were in the first place.

----------


## Gerhard

> keep in mind this is an hairloss forum, the hell of internet, everyone here is entitled to say bullshit, everyone has 4 or 5 degree in every human activity and know everything from past to future, the world hate baldness so you will never find a women or have a real life or find happyness, when you get a women she will cheat you with the first nw1, you will have hard time to find a decent job and people will always think you are a creepy bastard, the scientific world doesn't push for a cure, propecia and minox are the best and nothing can beat them for the next 15 years at least, hair transplant is the only way to go, everything after a nw2 is unacceptable, pgd2 theory is bullshit, the others future treatments are worse then propecia or minox anyway so they are useless, the rats pubs are useless and every new product are 100% scam because we can't beat hairloss without hair cloning.
> 
> This is every international hairloss forum circlejerk, thx god there are lot of minor hairloss forum in europe where you can actually have a real discussion


 That honestly killed me. Basically summed up the entirety of the forum.

----------


## bigentries

> I realy don't understand you people, why so much negativity? man if the product works and safe its wonderfull can't wait to use it but why the **** would you come here to bring people's hope  down ? What's the point? Hope it's a great thing if some people chose to put their hope on follicept  it's their choice only the product fail will change their view .
> I personaly i'am happy to see people working on mpb and its great to see Follicept confidence but let us wait for the result, we will see what happens after that.


 The point of a forums is to debate, to seek the truth. If skepticism hurts someone so much, they can keep their positivity outside the forums.

This sort of "hope" and "open mindedness" just hurts the community. People don't want debate, don't want the truth. They just want to believe, even in a lie, and will do everything in their power to shut down any sort of dissent.

----------


## just2hairs

I agree in the past we have had many scams, but you have to balance the cause and effect.  So far, Follicept has not done anything to cause some of you guys to accuse them of scamming.  Just wait a little more and see.  

I'm in full support of Follicept, but that doesn't mean i'll turn a blind eye to them.  The minute they start doing some scam-ish stuff, i'm sure our lessons in the past will kick in.  They haven't even posted results, so lets wait right?

----------


## follicept

> I agree in the past we have had many scams, but you have to balance the cause and effect.  So far, Follicept has not done anything to cause some of you guys to accuse them of scamming.  Just wait a little more and see.  
> 
> I'm in full support of Follicept, but that doesn't mean i'll turn a blind eye to them.  The minute they start doing some scam-ish stuff, i'm sure our lessons in the past will kick in.  They haven't even posted results, so lets wait right?


 StayThick called us to the mat, so I invited him to have a conversation. That's all. Don't know if he can/will participate, if it makes sense, if he wants to, etc. He said he is nearby, so I invited him to have a conversation. That's all. Don't read into it as a reversal or changing of minds or whatever. If it makes sense for him to participate, he might. Most of the other stuff is unfounded. There are some really intelligent, well-read members on here who have contributed to the conversation and raised some awesome points. We'll always appreciate that, and just don't see as much of it lately.

----------


## bigentries

> I agree in the past we have had many scams, but you have to balance the cause and effect.  So far, Follicept has not done anything to cause some of you guys to accuse them of scamming.  Just wait a little more and see.  
> 
> I'm in full support of Follicept, but that doesn't mean i'll turn a blind eye to them.  The minute they start doing some scam-ish stuff, i'm sure our lessons in the past will kick in.  They haven't even posted results, so lets wait right?


 And what have they done to warrant full support? Why so much hype?

Skeptics would remain quiet if the "wait and see" crowd would remain quiet soon. Unwarranted hype hurts too. Nigam and the Chlorine guy took advantage of that in the past, it's easy to take advantage of people when there's a big group that attacks anyone that dares to question.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

I think 'skepticism' is putting it lightly. Follicept were accused of being scammers right from the start. Even quite viciously! I think that was unjustified and completely uncalled for.

----------


## David7

+1 Let's just see what happens.

----------


## StayThick

I just don't understand why everyone on this forum can't just wait and see if this shows any promise or not. I mean they are doing some sort of trial currently so we should see some sort of evidence this does something (if anything) in the next few weeks ahead.

What I don't get is why people on here feel the urge throw their hands up in the air and start pointing fingers accusing companies like this of being a scam before any results are released. What's the point? Why not just sit tight and see what this trial reveals and go from there? 

If it's a joke and it shows it did nothing to these individuals then everyone has the right to call the treatment and this company whatever they want. But now? So soon? Why not just sit tight and then throw your hands up when/if this product ultimately shows it does nothing.

This forum has changed so much over the years and not for the better I can assure you this. I guess going bald does that to people. Turning them into disgruntled heathens. I'm balding and I view this treatment as an opportunity for something to be released SOON, albeit whether it works or not. However, at least it has the potential to be released soon. Now granted, if it doesn't work, then clearly the release of the treatment would be stupid because who would purchase it if the trials reveals NO RESULTS? But again, at least wait until this current trial period is over before making accusations.

I'm working on getting in contact with Devon. I have yet to hear from him or be granted access into this trial personally. As I mentioned before, I'm local to their facility (here in FL) and this makes tremendous sense to allow me to do this to benefit this forum more so than anything else. Hopefully, Devon reaches out to me to confirm I can participate so I can inform you all and get everyone in the loop on my progress regarding their treatment.

----------


## David7

Man you could me our man , go for it  :Smile:  you have my support .

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

This is better. I like how this thread is going. We are doing something _constructive_.

I hope it works out, StayThick. I will look forward to seeing any reports you will have.

----------


## just2hairs

> And what have they done to warrant full support? Why so much hype?
> 
> Skeptics would remain quiet if the "wait and see" crowd would remain quiet soon. Unwarranted hype hurts too. Nigam and the Chlorine guy took advantage of that in the past, it's easy to take advantage of people when there's a big group that attacks anyone that dares to question.


 Being supportive and excited for a potentially effective treatment is not "so much hype".  Follicept has not done anything to warrant anything otherwise. Labeling them scam is way off at this point.  Follicept themselves have admitted not knowing if it will work or not.  You can't just conveniently bring up Nigam and Chlorine guy as comparison because there are no similarities thus far.

----------


## bigentries

> Being supportive and excited for a potentially effective treatment is not "so much hype".  Follicept has not done anything to warrant anything otherwise. Labeling them scam is way off at this point.  Follicept themselves have admitted not knowing if it will work or not.  You can't just conveniently bring up Nigam and Chlorine guy as comparison because there are no similarities thus far.


 Their website states things like "Safe. Effective. Affordable", "Follicept ™ grows hair even after you stop using it", and in the FAQ, they claim it works and it is safe.

Those are pretty bold claims, reading their site, they don't adress any uncertainty

Seriously, Devon bragged to Swooping that he would kiss his former bald spot. Is that how a professional trialling something that he doesn't even knows if it works should be behaving?

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

Their website looks like something that we could expect after a very successful trial, but on the other hand they are very open about the fact that they are still in the testing phase. From the FAQ:



> *Has it been tested in humans?*
> We are testing it right now, and should have initial results in mid-May. Papers suggest we could see results in as little as 12 days, and we will be uploading the before and after pictures as soon as we have them! We know, it's a big claim, and you are skeptical. We won't take your money until we prove it in the next several weeks and are confident we can give you an effective product.


 As for safety; IG-1 is natural to the body and the amount they use in follicept is quite low and applied topically, so there is no real reason to suspect it poses any significant danger? I confess that I am no expert on this, but I have never heard anyone object to the safety aspect before. Anyone care to chime in on this? I just don't know.

Devon seems like a fun guy who likes to joke around, and I see no harm in it, though I understand how someone would find it unprofessional.


I just don't see any red "SCAM" lights flashing anywhere.

----------


## follicept

> Their website states things like "Safe. Effective. Affordable", "Follicept  grows hair even after you stop using it", and in the FAQ, they claim it works and it is safe.
> 
> Those are pretty bold claims, reading their site, they don't adress any uncertainty
> 
> Seriously, Devon bragged to Swooping that he would kiss his former bald spot. Is that how a professional trialling something that he doesn't even knows if it works should be behaving?


 I didn't brag to him, I made a bet with him that if it works, he has to kiss my former bald spot. Two very different things. 

As for how we communicate- our corporate culture and identity and positioning is up to us. I love to joke around and am very easygoing. I take life and this work very seriously, but it doesn't mean we can't all have fun in the process! I have the full support of Dr. Hsu in how I and we communicate. If you want a stodgy company who doesn't talk to you until we want your money and routes you through call centers for any customer service issues, we can be that. But we don't want that and I don't think you do either. Success or failure, is it not cool to be a part of this? I know I am having fun, even though it's incredibly hard. Our whole company is what Dr. Hsu likes to call a "grand experiment".

----------


## SOTF

Every year there is a new product people latch onto. Remember Dr. Nigam, the great hope? He had so many wrapped around his finger. He even took on several "seniority" members - some of which, to my understanding, were harmed in the process. 

To the guy above me - how are you making statements related to safety - followed up by admitting you have no idea? Do you not see the issue in that? Desperation is a hell of a thing. This place reeks of it.

----------


## just2hairs

> Their website states things like "Safe. Effective. Affordable", "Follicept  grows hair even after you stop using it", and in the FAQ, they claim it works and it is safe.
> 
> Those are pretty bold claims, reading their site, they don't adress any uncertainty
> 
> Seriously, Devon bragged to Swooping that he would kiss his former bald spot. Is that how a professional trialling something that he doesn't even knows if it works should be behaving?


 Those claims are based on their scientific findings.  The trial results (soon to be disclosed) will prove or disprove those findings.  How else do you expect them to market their product?

I'm done going back and forth.  I can't wait for the trial results...that's all i'm doing and nothing you say will sway me or anyone.  If they fail, as long as they don't do any funny business, i'm still in support of them...GO FOLLICEPT!

----------


## Swooping

I'll explain it one more time because people don't seem to understand. 

Growth factors have been present in Europe & North America for quite some time in cosmetics.

The IGF-1 that follicept is using is far from novel. It has been around for ages. Why do you think the FDA & European law "permits"  these growth factors? *Because they have already reviewed this ages ago.* Check for instance here; 

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cosmet...d=85149&back=1

In the meantime tons of products are on the market that you can buy which implement those (various) growth factors. 

For instance this product which has various growth factors in 10PPM concentration for hair too;

http://www.amazon.com/Dermaheal-Cosm...RKN2TFFPGT8H9J

You want EGF as a growth factor? 

Here you go! http://www.skinactives.com/Epidermal...or-BT-EGF.html


Or you want another product which implements those growth factors? You want another one specifically for hair? 

Here you go!; http://www.aespio.com/sgf-57.asp?mm=1&sm=18

Here another one for your skin with IGF-1 in it and tons of other growth factors. The product sheet; http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed...4-db8dd6041b43

*Devon even admitted AFAIK that their unique selling point is their delivery & pulse therapy*. Not the IGF-1 itself. 

Correct, Devon?

----------


## RGPHILPA

> Those claims are based on their scientific findings.  The trial results (soon to be disclosed) will prove or disprove those findings.  How else do you expect them to market their product?
> 
> I'm done going back and forth.  I can't wait for the trial results...that's all i'm doing and nothing you say will sway me or anyone.  If they fail, as long as they don't do any funny business, i'm still in support of them...GO FOLLICEPT!


 
You do the science, then you make the claims.  That's how it works.  Not the other way around. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence that it will do as they say in humans.  None.  They haven't run a single human experiment, so how is that they're advertising it already as "effective".  They have a mouse with some questionable fuzz on it.  To make the leap from that to "it's effective, safe and affordable" is ridiculous. Not too mention highly unethical behavior.   

They are not "findings" as you call them.  What they are is pure unadulterated speculation and hype.  There is a huge discrepancy between what Devon has said and what they advertise on their website. Which is what the bulk of the complaints against them have been about - and completely warranted btw.

----------


## bigentries

> I didn't brag to him, I made a bet with him that if it works, he has to kiss my former bald spot. Two very different things. 
> 
> As for how we communicate- our corporate culture and identity and positioning is up to us. I love to joke around and am very easygoing. I take life and this work very seriously, but it doesn't mean we can't all have fun in the process! I have the full support of Dr. Hsu in how I and we communicate. If you want a stodgy company who doesn't talk to you until we want your money and routes you through call centers for any customer service issues, we can be that. But we don't want that and I don't think you do either. Success or failure, is it not cool to be a part of this? I know I am having fun, even though it's incredibly hard. Our whole company is what Dr. Hsu likes to call a "grand experiment".


 A bet usually involves both sides. What do you expect would to be a fair answer from Swooping?

Sorry, but that sounds like bragging to me, do you see cancer researches betting to skeptics that they would kiss an extracted tumor?

That's why I believe you are into something. So, this thing doesn't work. How are people going to take you seriously after that? You basically mocked a potential customer, made bold claims way before you got results. I can't see a professional making those mistakes unless he is 100% sure this is going to work or he'll be 100% sure to make it look like it's working

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

> To the guy above me - how are you making statements related to safety - followed up by admitting you have no idea? Do you not see the issue in that? Desperation is a hell of a thing. This place reeks of it.


 I didn't make any statements. I just did some reasoning formulated as a question.

----------


## follicept

> I'll explain it one more time because people don't seem to understand. 
> 
> Growth factors have been present in Europe & North America for quite some time in cosmetics.
> 
> The IGF-1 that follicept is using is far from novel. It has been around for ages. Why do you think the FDA & European law "permits"  these growth factors? *Because they have already reviewed this ages ago.* Check for instance here; 
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cosmet...d=85149&back=1
> 
> In the meantime tons of products are on the market that you can buy which implement those (various) growth factors. 
> ...


 Correct. IGF-1 has been on the market for a while. We have a unique, novel way to deliver it in low concentrations (safety) directly to the follicles via our topical delivery technology (effectiveness). We didn't develop the IGF-1. In our view, we are solving a missing puzzle piece between IGF-1 being supported as important in regulating hair growth, and the current inability to deliver it in doses that are both low enough to be safe and local enough to be effective.

----------


## follicept

> A bet usually involves both sides. What do you expect would to be a fair answer from Swooping?
> 
> Sorry, but that sounds like bragging to me, do you see cancer researches betting to skeptics that they would kiss an extracted tumor?
> 
> That's why I believe you are into something. So, this thing doesn't work. How are people going to take you seriously after that? You basically mocked a potential customer, made bold claims way before you got results. I can't see a professional making those mistakes unless he is 100% sure this is going to work or he'll be 100% sure to make it look like it's working


 He accepted it, saying he would pay to fly me out haha. No need to defend him- he is plenty capable. If I lose the bet, he gets to be right for the rest of his life and shame me for my efforts. Not a bad deal. 

Cancer researchers is a bit of a different proposition than what we have hear. Scope, level, patient involvement, commercialization, on and on. And they don't have people calling them scammers as they complete their work. (except the people who claim you can cure cancer with green tea and that kind of stuff.)

If it fails, we have myriad other compounds we could test. We are close to a deal with big pharma. We try the next thing. How do people take me seriously? They will see my dedication and accomplishments in achieving what I/we have so far, and my integrity in admitting a failure and moving on to the next thing. What else do people want? I am not worried about that. Swooping is a very unlikely potential customer, and I haven't really mocked him. We have engaged in spirited witty banter, which I still feel is good natured for both of us. I don't think he feels mocked, and sorry if he does. I think he feels like I am the idiot and he has the moral high ground. An opinion to which he is entitled and that I am working to disprove via these trials. He has agreed that time will tell. 

Nothing in the world gets done if you wait for 100% certainty. The most important thing to me is my conscience. I may not be able to convince you of that, but your opinion is none of my business. I have to lay my head on my pillow at night, and manipulating photos and people would not allow me to do that. I would much rather fail, lick my wounds, and move on.

----------


## StayThick

> Correct. IGF-1 has been on the market for a while. We have a unique, novel way to deliver it in low concentrations (safety) directly to the follicles via our topical delivery technology (effectiveness). We didn't develop the IGF-1. In our view, we are solving a missing puzzle piece between IGF-1 being supported as important in regulating hair growth, and the current inability to deliver it in doses that are both low enough to be safe and local enough to be effective.


 Devon, what is the best way for us to relay contact information in regards to possibly being involved in the trials? Especially considering I'm local here in FL to your facility? I still at this point have not heard from you. Is this still a possibility and on the table at the moment? I would love to be a part of this and track my results, including my progress with this forum since this is the only hairloss forum I am a part of and have been for quite some time.

Let me know what you would like me to do to relay my contact information over to you personally. Through your website, etc. Thanks.

----------


## serenemoon

> StayThick called us to the mat, so I invited him to have a conversation. That's all. Don't know if he can/will participate, if it makes sense, if he wants to, etc. He said he is nearby, so I invited him to have a conversation. That's all. Don't read into it as a reversal or changing of minds or whatever. If it makes sense for him to participate, he might. Most of the other stuff is unfounded. There are some really intelligent, well-read members on here who have contributed to the conversation and raised some awesome points. We'll always appreciate that, and just don't see as much of it lately.


 +1.

----------


## serenemoon

> Devon, what is the best way for us to relay contact information in regards to possibly being involved in the trials? Especially considering I'm local here in FL to your facility? I still at this point have not heard from you. Is this still a possibility and on the table at the moment? I would love to be a part of this and track my results, including my progress with this forum since this is the only hairloss forum I am a part of and have been for quite some time.
> 
> Let me know what you would like me to do to relay my contact information over to you personally. Through your website, etc. Thanks.


 Hey StayThick, his email address is in this article. http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...5#.VUvNR4Wr8rE

I remember reading in an earlier post where he said that he wanted you to email him. Hopefully this will help. Good luck with the trials brother!!  :Smile:  Hope you grow a massive amount of hair.

----------


## StayThick

Thank you! I didn't have his email address nor did I see his response that you copied. I will email him now!

Thanks for posting this.

----------


## efedrez

> I didn't brag to him, I made a bet with him that if it works, he has to kiss my former bald spot. Two very different things. 
> 
> As for how we communicate- our corporate culture and identity and positioning is up to us. I love to joke around and am very easygoing. I take life and this work very seriously, but it doesn't mean we can't all have fun in the process! I have the full support of Dr. Hsu in how I and we communicate. If you want a stodgy company who doesn't talk to you until we want your money and routes you through call centers for any customer service issues, we can be that. But we don't want that and I don't think you do either. Success or failure, is it not cool to be a part of this? I know I am having fun, even though it's incredibly hard. Our whole company is what Dr. Hsu likes to call a "grand experiment".


 No one knows for sure what the outcome of Follicept is going to be, but if this really turn out to be a reasonable treatment it's definitely exiting being able to be part of that history  (even as a internet forum member).

Personally I haven't even mentioned anything about it to friends or family suffering from MPB but I would love  to be the first in give them the great news if this really works.

If it doesn't, well I guess we will always have the "5 years ready to market" treatments

----------


## stayhopeful

haha this forum is popping again back and forth!  It's all about the results guys!  We're clsoer than ever.  results that's all that matters.... hopefully we have something here better than both fin and minox

----------


## Afghanwig

> Swooping is a very unlikely potential customer, and I haven't really mocked him.


 LOL haven't really mocked him? Even Winston called your behaviour unprofessional! And why are you saying Swooping is a very unlikely potential customer? If you could prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that your product works, do you think ANYBODY here is an 'unlikely potential customer'? Of course not! Yeah sure, if you keep going down the road you are on right now, you will have a hard time convincing skeptics and most skeptics won't buy your product. But if you just did some simple things, you could convince everybody. Yet you don't want to do that, you don't care about convincing people and you accept that skeptics won't be your customer. That's very odd the least ...

----------


## Keki

I don't think he should care about convincing skeptics people to buy his product once and if we have real results, they will be a minority and eventually they will buy follicept few months later with other people reviews

----------


## bigentries

> Nothing in the world gets done if you wait for 100% certainty. The most important thing to me is my conscience. I may not be able to convince you of that, but your opinion is none of my business. I have to lay my head on my pillow at night, and manipulating photos and people would not allow me to do that. I would much rather fail, lick my wounds, and move on.


 Dude, sorry, but it is your business

Remember, you are working on a medical condition. Your job is to convince people. There are tons of ethics surrounding medicine. 

How is Swooping not a potential customer? Do you think anyone here would turn down a cure? Hell if this thing works I'll pay you a trip to the Caribbean for a week. I would offer to build a temple for you, but I already promised that to a guy in another forum if he show results

Honestly, I hope you are 100% sure what you are doing, because if this thing doesn't works, I can see these kind of posts hunting you for the rest of your life.

----------


## efedrez

> Swooping is a very unlikely potential customer, and I haven't really mocked him. We have engaged in spirited witty banter, which I still feel is good natured for both of us. I don't think he feels mocked, and sorry if he does. I think he feels like I am the idiot and he has the moral high ground. An opinion to which he is entitled and that I am working to disprove via these trials. He has agreed that time will tell.


 Devon, I'm rooting for Follicept 100%, mainly because I want to get my hair back but also because I believe in small entrepreneurs making it into a complicated business scenario.

But if I can give you a word of advice, It would be beneficial if you take a rather different approach when addressing potential customer (we all are). I admire your professionalism in from of a camera and even enjoined your jokes on your videos but keep in mind that you are not a regular forum member who can engage petty argument that might hurt your ego.

I understand you are still a very young guy and can only imagine this is being very exiting from a career perspective  but keeping a more objective point of view instead of fighting back when you are offended will give you more credibility...if results are any good,they will do all the taking for you

----------


## Afghanwig

> if results are any good,they will do all the taking for you


 Exactly that. I don't even understand what Devon is doing here at all. Just get us *credible* results! Only people who can't deliver credible results, need talking.

----------


## serenemoon

I really hope you guys will keep your promises if this thing works.

So far, I see

Swooping will fly Devon out to the Netherlands.
Big entries will pay for a week long Carribean trip.

Anyone else want to jump in?

----------


## bigentries

> I really hope you guys will keep your promises if this thing works.
> 
> So far, I see
> 
> Swooping will fly Devon out to the Netherlands.
> Big entries will pay for a week long Carribean trip.
> 
> Anyone else want to jump in?


 Let's make it interesting. What do we skeptics get? What about instant bans in 2016? We are putting money on the line, so make it interesting

Edit: I will also accept trips to the Netherlands or the Caribbean

----------


## serenemoon

> Thank you! I didn't have his email address nor did I see his response that you copied. I will email him now!
> 
> Thanks for posting this.


 +1. You are welcome! Very exciting to have a trusted forum member like you try this.

----------


## youngin

I am quite confident this will fail. There is really no proof at all it will work and it does nothing to address the undeniable fibrosis/calcification involved in MPB. Go look at the peppermint oil study and see how much better it was than minoxidil and igf if you want studies on hair growth.

----------


## serenemoon

Here you go, Arashi.  :Big Grin: 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyIHizw0kcU

----------


## jamesst11

Bigentries,
    You can see these posts haunting him for the rest of his life?  Dude!  There are ACTUAL scumbags in the hair loss industry.  Most of us know because at one point, in one respect or another, many of us have wasted money, been taken advantage of, or even disfigured by the monsters who rule this industry.  Go target them!! Devon is explaining his potential product, from a formula, synthesized in an actual, reputable lab.  THE REST of the bitter nonsense brought about in these threads are made up by the forum members themselves.  Why no spend your energy targeting Bosley or something and let this little lab do their work.  If it fails, no one is harmed.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

I don't think it matters what anyone says.

All I see is a bunch of really angry people who finally have somewhere to vent out...

----------


## Arashi

> Here you go, Arashi.


 Thanks. So we now have some actual proof of a baseline, that's something. But it will be very very hard to see progress this way, unless it's like 10x better than minox .. It's going to be interesting to see though what happens.

----------


## FloydButterworth

So, in the case that we don't see any effect, what date are people ok with as an endpoint and declaring it a failure?  a couple of weeks?  2-3 months from now?  or, like propecia do you think this needs 6-12 months?

----------


## serenemoon

> So, in the case that we don't see any effect, what date are people ok with as an endpoint and declaring it a failure?  a couple of weeks?  2-3 months from now?  or, like propecia do you think this needs 6-12 months?


 Good question. For me AT MOST 6 months. I will probably lose hope if I don't see anything by the 4 month mark though.

----------


## bigentries

> Good question. For me AT MOST 6 months. I will probably lose hope if I don't see anything by the 4 month mark though.


 So, could we count with your ban in 6 months? You were the one that brought that again, what are the supporters willing to bet?

----------


## serenemoon

> So, could we count with your ban in 6 months? You were the one that brought that again, what are the supporters willing to bet?


 Lmao. You guys were the ones offering on your own first. But sure man,go ahead with the ban.

----------


## StayThick

Hey guys. Just had a Skype session with Devon @ Follicept. Couldn't be a nicer guy to be honest. I didn't drill him with questions, as I figured if we met there would be a time for that. We discussed me being a participant in the current trials. He's on board with it, but he needs approval from Dr. Hsu. 

At this time, I am not a confirmed participant, but hopefully I will have an answer in the next week regarding this. We both agree it would be beneficial for me to participate considering the numerous skeptics on this board and the idea of having one of our own as a trial participant to personally track my progress. He and I see this as an opportunity to validate to forum members on here the potential of this treatment and what they are trying to do. 

I'll keep everyone posted regarding my status on being a potential participant. They don't have much more room for participants, but hopefully Devon can make this happen so I can be the voice on this forum for this treatment and its effectiveness.

----------


## FloydButterworth

> Good question. For me AT MOST 6 months. I will probably lose hope if I don't see anything by the 4 month mark though.


 
I would say this is fair...

----------


## nameless

[QUOTE=follicept;206948]He accepted it, saying he would pay to fly me out haha. No need to defend him- he is plenty capable. If I lose the bet, he gets to be right for the rest of his life and shame me for my efforts. Not a bad deal. QUOTE]

Not a bad deal? Huh? If you the bet he gets to be right for the rest of his life and shame you for his efforts and that is all he gets??? If he loses the bet then you get to be right and you get to shame him for the rest of his life PLUS you get a free trip somewhere. If you win you get everything he gets PLUS you also get a free trop and if you win you will be the one who will least need financial help to take a trip. In other words if you win you will become a filthy rich guy and you will get Swooping (a regular middle class guy) to pay for you to take a trip. LOL. You definitely got the better end of this deal/bet.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

> Hey guys. Just had a Skype session with Devon @ Follicept. Couldn't be a nicer guy to be honest. I didn't drill him with questions, as I figured if we met there would be a time for that. We discussed me being a participant in the current trials. He's on board with it, but he needs approval from Dr. Hsu. 
> 
> At this time, I am not a confirmed participant, but hopefully I will have an answer in the next week regarding this. We both agree it would be beneficial for me to participate considering the numerous skeptics on this board and the idea of having one of our own as a trial participant to personally track my progress. He and I see this as an opportunity to validate to forum members on here the potential of this treatment and what they are trying to do. 
> 
> I'll keep everyone posted regarding my status on being a potential participant. They don't have much more room for participants, but hopefully Devon can make this happen so I can be the voice on this forum for this treatment and its effectiveness.


 Sounds good!

Btw. what is your current situation, if you don't mind me asking?

----------


## StayThick

> Sounds good!
> 
> Btw. what is your current situation, if you don't mind me asking?


 I'm assuming you're referencing my current hairloss situation?

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

No, your dating life. Are you single? Are you interested in dating a NW2 with a receding hairline? <3

Of course I mean your hairloss situation.  :Smile:

----------


## follicept

> No, your dating life. Are you single? Are you interested in dating a NW2 with a receding hairline? <3
> 
> Of course I mean your hairloss situation.


 +1 hahahaha

----------


## StayThick

> No, your dating life. Are you single? Are you interested in dating a NW2 with a receding hairline? <3
> 
> Of course I mean your hairloss situation.


 Easy there. One question at a time please. Let me see if I can tackle them all.

1. Not single. Dating a smokeshow of a girl.
2. No, not gay. Sorry bud. 
3. Clear receding hairline. Corners going lighting quick. Diffuse hair thinning throughout top of my scalp. Crown is now starting to thin at a noticeable rate compared to rest of diffuse scalp. I have decent coverage as long as you don't have a bucket of water near by to dump on my head. No slick bald spots on scalp yet. 29 year old male. NW2 approaching NW2.5 quickly.

Good enough?

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

Haha. Good enough!

Mentally, I would put you in the same approximate category as Devon. I feel you are comparable to me at least. Good to know.

----------


## kantian

Peter Fox • 2 hours ago
Devon,

The picture of the rat that received the treatment seems to gain about 20% of its hairs and only vellus (thin, wispy) hairs. Do you have a reason to believe it will work differently with humans? I am unable to find yours or Dr. Hsu's beliefs on this topic in the documents you've released.

^^^ From the follicept website discussion. Do you guys know anything about this?

----------


## StayThick

> Peter Fox • 2 hours ago
> Devon,
> 
> The picture of the rat that received the treatment seems to gain about 20% of its hairs and only vellus (thin, wispy) hairs. Do you have a reason to believe it will work differently with humans? I am unable to find yours or Dr. Hsu's beliefs on this topic in the documents you've released.
> 
> ^^^ From the follicept website discussion. Do you guys know anything about this?


 You bring up a very interesting question. I guess they don't know until after an extended period of time with the trial participants.

Last thing we all care for is a bunch a light vellus hairs or peach fuzz.

----------


## serenemoon

> Peter Fox  2 hours ago
> Devon,
> 
> The picture of the rat that received the treatment seems to gain about 20% of its hairs and only vellus (thin, wispy) hairs. Do you have a reason to believe it will work differently with humans? I am unable to find yours or Dr. Hsu's beliefs on this topic in the documents you've released.
> 
> ^^^ From the follicept website discussion. Do you guys know anything about this?


  Devon's response to that - 

"I addressed this at some point- I think on one of the long threads on BTT. Those aren't necessarily vellus hairs, that's just what that kind of rat's hair looks like. We chose them because they have a gene that knocks out hair growth, making follicles stunted and any hair that does grow appear wiry, kinked, and white. The lack of pigment has to do with their genetics and not the performance of the product. This help?"

----------


## Hemo

nvm.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

PILOX


Hairegen classic - patent protected technology. 

In 2009, Professor Dov Aingmn, a renowned professor from the Technion, signed on the development of a number of patents, exploring the theme of technology development for the treatment of baldness. Prof. Aingmn unveiled his vision for product development and technology working to restore full functionality animals and dormant hair follicles and was the first experimenter development, as balding hair for genetic reasons. The months passed and the amazement of those around and the family, a theory that has proven itself and introduced new hair began to grow in the head.

The surprising results led many investors and patients interested in the product and its development. For this purpose, founded by Prof. Aingmn, along with scientists, development and management of the Fiilogi'ks.

The first prototype of the device was distributed in 2010 to dozens of men and women with thinning hair, alopecia and increased dropout. The results were not long in coming: the new hair began to grow in diluted, hair thickness and growth rate increased, flexible and scalp became thicker, growth came in areas of baldness and users reported significant improvement continued with continued use of the device.

In view of success, continued Filogi'ks develop the technology and test it for hundreds of other users, and finally developed commercial product for home use as it is today: the classic Hairegen

Hairegen classic marketed in Israel by "Dimdiko Medical Technologies Ltd." ideological partner and exclusive agent of "Fiilog'iks" Israel.

----------


## joachim

> PILOX
> 
> 
> Hairegen classic - patent protected technology. 
> 
> In 2009, Professor Dov Aingmn, a renowned professor from the Technion, signed on the development of a number of patents, exploring the theme of technology development for the treatment of baldness. Prof. Aingmn unveiled his vision for product development and technology working to restore full functionality animals and dormant hair follicles and was the first experimenter development, as balding hair for genetic reasons. The months passed and the amazement of those around and the family, a theory that has proven itself and introduced new hair began to grow in the head.
> 
> The surprising results led many investors and patients interested in the product and its development. For this purpose, founded by Prof. Aingmn, along with scientists, development and management of the Fiilogi'ks.
> 
> ...


 what now? where is the article from? pilox is available now in israel?
we already found out that it's a useless device, not to say scam, no?
give us more details and a status update, please

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> what now? where is the article from? pilox is available now in israel?
> we already found out that it's a useless device, not to say scam, no?
> give us more details and a status update, please


 Hair Reborn, a combination of increasing the amount of hair at the top and thickening existing hair leading to a significant improvement in appearance of hair and hair feeling reborn. Using classic Hairegen home, comfortable, safe, no side effects and is the only solution with guaranteed performance!

At the end of the first four months of therapy will improve aggregate of 30% in two parameters: the new hair growth and thickening of existing hair. Regular use on your Hairegen Classic will ensure that the hair continues to recover after the first four months of treatment.

In order to enjoy the promise of performance you perform both tests Trikoskn (accurate scientific testing and evaluating the state of the hair) - first test with the receiving device and the second at 4 months. Comparison of the results of these tests, see the actual results of the improvement in the hair of your head.

Was re-grew hair and stands percent performance target? (30% improvement over 4 months) your entire happiness and ours. Keep it up. Was not - replace the entire device and right and your money will be refunded in full.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> what now? where is the article from? pilox is available now in israel?
> we already found out that it's a useless device, not to say scam, no?
> give us more details and a status update, please


 how did you already find out the device was useless? How did you find out a scam?


Arashi claimed (aka predicted based on no proof) it was a scam. He also claimed that it was a product of "Yoram Benitah"... which.... it is not. Yoram works at the company but is not the owner of the company, or the inventor, and maybe isn't even an investor... he might even just be a consultant they hired to do the trichoscans.... but... of course Arashi ignored these facts because this doesn't meld with his "predication/proclamation"

and now? it is launching in isreal and it guarentees 30% increase BASED ON TRICHOSCANS...... something that no scam (or real product) has ever offered EVER.

Sound like a scam now arashi?

----------


## efedrez

Last Tuesday Devon published more detailed pictures of the trial  participants and the 2 week progress

Nothing to report yet really but honestly if they show something at this stage I would be more skeptical than happy so I guess we will have to wait a bit more to see

http://www.*******/folliceptpics

----------


## just2hairs

> PILOX
> 
> 
> Hairegen classic - patent protected technology. 
> 
> In 2009, Professor Dov Aingmn, a renowned professor from the Technion, signed on the development of a number of patents, exploring the theme of technology development for the treatment of baldness. Prof. Aingmn unveiled his vision for product development and technology working to restore full functionality animals and dormant hair follicles and was the first experimenter development, as balding hair for genetic reasons. The months passed and the amazement of those around and the family, a theory that has proven itself and introduced new hair began to grow in the head.
> 
> The surprising results led many investors and patients interested in the product and its development. For this purpose, founded by Prof. Aingmn, along with scientists, development and management of the Fiilogi'ks.
> 
> ...


 Why is Pilox in this thread?

----------


## bigentries

> Why is Pilox in this thread?


 My guess is that he is moderated and can't make a new thread. The guy is obsessed with that crap. He keeps bumping his threads about it in other forums and he's been doing it for maybe two years already

----------


## nameless

> PILOX
> 
> 
> Hairegen classic - patent protected technology. 
> 
> In 2009, Professor Dov Aingmn, a renowned professor from the Technion, signed on the development of a number of patents, exploring the theme of technology development for the treatment of baldness. Prof. Aingmn unveiled his vision for product development and technology working to restore full functionality animals and dormant hair follicles and was the first experimenter development, as balding hair for genetic reasons. The months passed and the amazement of those around and the family, a theory that has proven itself and introduced new hair began to grow in the head.
> 
> The surprising results led many investors and patients interested in the product and its development. For this purpose, founded by Prof. Aingmn, along with scientists, development and management of the Fiilogi'ks.
> 
> ...


 
Both Vraf and Elevation tried this product and it did not work on either of them. 2 out of 2 failure rate = 100% failure rate. It's proved snake-oil.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

So Pilox has been around for 2 years and I have never heard about it until now? Doesn't sound like it does what they claim.

I noticed they have a money back guarantee. Sounds impressive until you find out that only 1 in 200 customers (or something like that) actually bother to claim their refund. Nisim has the same deal.

----------


## Arashi

> how did you already find out the device was useless? How did you find out a scam?
> 
> 
> Arashi claimed (aka predicted based on no proof) it was a scam. He also claimed that it was a product of "Yoram Benitah"... which.... it is not. Yoram works at the company but is not the owner of the company, or the inventor, and maybe isn't even an investor... he might even just be a consultant they hired to do the trichoscans.... but... of course Arashi ignored these facts because this doesn't meld with his "predication/proclamation"
> 
> and now? it is launching in isreal and it guarentees 30% increase BASED ON TRICHOSCANS...... something that no scam (or real product) has ever offered EVER.
> 
> Sound like a scam now arashi?


 LOL. No this isn't a scam. That's why the 2 test users, vraf and that other guy, had 0 results. Cause it works so well  :Smile:

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> So Pilox has been around for 2 years and I have never heard about it until now? Doesn't sound like it does what they claim.
> 
> I noticed they have a money back guarantee. Sounds impressive until you find out that only 1 in 200 customers (or something like that) actually bother to claim their refund. Nisim has the same deal.


 suit yourselves

----------


## bananana

> suit yourselves


 Ok, I've said this 10 times (even though this is not the topic for this), I'm willing to give it a shot - how and where can I get it?
Google returns nothing, no official site, no info, nothing.

----------


## serenemoon

Vote for Prometheon guys!! Thanks!

http://pioneers.io/festival2015/comm...ward/#woobox00

----------


## Arashi

> Vote for Prometheon guys!! Thanks!
> 
> http://pioneers.io/festival2015/comm...ward/#woobox00


 Yes let's create an even bigger hype for some dubious company with hold claims and unproven products!

----------


## serenemoon

> Yes let's create an even bigger hype for some dubious company with hold claims and unproven products!


 Jesus man, chill. They have been honest so far and not showing fake results. They even said earlier that according to papers, results could come in 12 days and were honest when they did not see results in 12 days. A fake company would have tried the hardest to get some hairs by 12 days just to prove themselves. So kick back, relax and act emotionally mature for your age, dude.

----------


## SOTF

Adults realize time is of the essence. If we took the time to devote this attention to each product that came out, we'd spend our lives on a forum for hair loss. What do you believe the odds are this pans out serenemoon - 1%, 5%, 50%? Are you basing this on anything other than an emotional needing? This is the flavor of the month, the thing to fill that void. What I can't figure out - "follicept" couldn't apply this to their own scalps before mentioning a word of it on a forum? They would have known in a few months if they had something. This appears as a group of individuals reading literature on the problem and guessing a solution after an ah-ha moment. Like every scam prior, something doesn't smell right. The outward appearance changes, but that feeling of things being off remains.

----------


## Arashi

> Jesus man, chill. They have been honest so far and not showing fake results. They even said earlier that according to papers, results could come in 12 days and were honest when they did not see results in 12 days. A fake company would have tried the hardest to get some hairs by 12 days just to prove themselves. So kick back, relax and act emotionally mature for your age, dude.


 Ok, so asking people to vote for some company who has no product out, who had no results on humans, who claim 'it's safe, reliable and effective' but 'forget' to state that's only true for *rats*, THAT is 'emotionally mature" ? That's fanboyism to the extreme !

Stop spamming this forum with asking people to vote for anything. Wait till they actually have some results instead.

----------


## nameless

> Yes let's create an even bigger hype for some dubious company with hold claims and unproven products!


 Arishi has a point. Why promote a product before we have evidence that it grows at least 1 hair in a human being?

----------


## efedrez

+1, voted for them already

----------


## jamesst11

> Jesus man, chill. They have been honest so far and not showing fake results. They even said earlier that according to papers, results could come in 12 days and were honest when they did not see results in 12 days. A fake company would have tried the hardest to get some hairs by 12 days just to prove themselves. So kick back, relax and act emotionally mature for your age, dude.


 Exactly... it doesn't even matter what results the product yields. They are a hardworking, honest lab that came to us with information.  They never promised anything.

----------


## Afghanwig

> They never promised anything.


 "Safe, *effective*, affordable" it says on their website, how is that not a promise exactly ?

----------


## noquierosercalvo

yes, they have already  promise us something even if they say they dont.
If not why im so hyped ? and im very cautious with this thing of hair loss and all the fake products for 20 years, but what with  all they  have said in this forum, their web, " effective " etc... ?
sorry my english.

----------


## jamesst11

> "Safe, *effective*, affordable" it says on their website, how is that not a promise exactly ?


 It's just marketing man.  I wouldn't completely discredit them until they are actually trying to SELL you something.

----------


## brocktherock

Jeez louise! The guys are trying it for you, just shut up and watch. There was more positivity in the dermarolling thread.

----------


## serenemoon

> Ok, so asking people to vote for some company who has no product out, who had no results on humans, who claim 'it's safe, reliable and effective' but 'forget' to state that's only true for *rats*, THAT is 'emotionally mature" ? That's fanboyism to the extreme !
> 
> Stop spamming this forum with asking people to vote for anything. Wait till they actually have some results instead.


 LMAO. I am the spammer, yet you are the one constantly posting the same negative shit over and over again.

The vote is not for Follicept. It is for what a start up company has accomplished so far, and that includes their PATENTED technology that transmits large molecules through the skin. It is useless talking to you really.

----------


## serenemoon

> Adults realize time is of the essence. If we took the time to devote this attention to each product that came out, we'd spend our lives on a forum for hair loss. What do you believe the odds are this pans out serenemoon - 1%, 5%, 50%? Are you basing this on anything other than an emotional needing? This is the flavor of the month, the thing to fill that void. What I can't figure out - "follicept" couldn't apply this to their own scalps before mentioning a word of it on a forum? They would have known in a few months if they had something. This appears as a group of individuals reading literature on the problem and guessing a solution after an ah-ha moment. Like every scam prior, something doesn't smell right. The outward appearance changes, but that feeling of things being off remains.


 I understand what you are saying since we have seen things come and go, but I joined this forum before Follicept was even active, and I have not jumped on every band wagon. In fact Follicept's potential is what got me to be more active, so flavor of the month stuff does not apply to me. And the history behind is not the way you think. THey had one press release, everyone got excited, BTT started a thread and asked Devon to join. And honestly, do you really think they coming to us later on with results is going to stop people from yelling "SCAM" "HAIR TRANSPLANT!!!" at them? So all the better that this is happening real time before they have a final product I say. That way we get out real time videos, real time pictures and Arashi gets his proof of current forum screen shots in videos (smh.)

----------


## cuprous

> Jeez louise! The guys are trying it for you, just shut up and watch. There was more positivity in the dermarolling thread.


 I agree.  There's really NO point in talking about this until there is any kind of development - it works, it fails, Follicept asks us for money, whatever.  Until then this is just worthless jostling of opinions.  IMHO follicept has acted in very good faith with the exception of the one word "effective" they used on their web page.  Could well have been some marketing intern who came up with that.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Yes let's create an even bigger hype for some dubious company with hold claims and unproven products!


 You did the same exact thing with pilox... and all of the information you posted about it was ill-informed or outright untruths.

You characterized Yoram as the inventor/owner of the company... this is blatantly NOT TRUE. It's more likely he isn't even a full-time employee, and is just a trichologist hired as a consultant to handle the trichogram analysis during testing.

You also called Pilox "dubious", etc. when vraf posted his honest results (which weren't even remotely impressive). Why would a "Scammer company" be posting pictures with very "vanilla" results... and in an amateur picture-style with toilets in the background? Especially when we've seen how good the Pilox photography is? 

The answer: Vraf was a real human. Pilox is not a scam company. And your assumptions (or whatever you want to call them) were WRONG.

Just like you did with pilox, you are calling everyone and anyone "company shills" who are OBVIOUSLY NOT SHILLS... who are just normal people posting on the message board. I don't know if you're joking, or actually think that pilox [or follicept] has some massive illuminati conspiracy to spend multiple years building up a scam so they can make $30k... does that make sense to you?


OKAY, Why am I bringing this up in a non-pilox thread?


Simply to point out that you have just as BAD a track record at spotting scams as you do a GOOD track record. People should realize that you have wrongfully bashed companies before... and they should take everything you post with a grain of salt.

----------


## Arashi

> LMAO. I am the spammer, yet you are the one constantly posting the same negative shit over and over again.


 You have at least 2x more follicept posts than I have, all posting the same shit over and over again, so yeah, you ARE the spammer.

----------


## Helix

> IMHO follicept has acted in very good faith with the exception of the one word "effective" they used on their web page.  Could well have been some marketing intern who came up with that.


 Well, not really. The language they used was overconfident. The general impression was like they got it all sorted out and trials are just a formality. They should of been more careful not to raise people expectations without solid evidence.

----------


## Arashi

> You did the same exact thing with pilox... and all of the information you posted about it was ill-informed or outright untruths.
> 
> You characterized Yoram as the inventor/owner of the company... this is blatantly NOT TRUE. It's more likely he isn't even a full-time employee, and is just a trichologist hired as a consultant to handle the trichogram analysis during testing.
> 
> You also called Pilox "dubious", etc. when vraf posted his honest results (which weren't even remotely impressive). Why would a "Scammer company" be posting pictures with very "vanilla" results... and in an amateur picture-style with toilets in the background? Especially when we've seen how good the Pilox photography is? 
> 
> The answer: Vraf was a real human. Pilox is not a scam company. And your assumptions (or whatever you want to call them) were WRONG.
> 
> Just like you did with pilox, you are calling everyone and anyone "company shills" who are OBVIOUSLY NOT SHILLS... who are just normal people posting on the message board. I don't know if you're joking, or actually think that pilox [or follicept] has some massive illuminati conspiracy to spend multiple years building up a scam so they can make $30k... does that make sense to you?
> ...


 
LOL yeah I was wrong about Pilox, it's actually a wonderful device that grows tons of hair !! The only 2 test persons who tried it, both reported failure but I'm sure that's because Pilox had accidentally sent out damaged devices and they will surely replace them with better ones. Did you buy one already btw ? You gained 30% hair already too ?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jagger

Sounds like StayThick has met with Follicept and will be beginning his trial shortly. Looking forward to some external verification of Follicept's claims.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Sounds like StayThick has met with Follicept and will be beginning his trial shortly. Looking forward to some external verification of Follicept's claims.


 What claims?

I'm pretty sure it's easy to see what happened with follicept:

(1) they realized they MIGHT have a hair loss product

(2) they thought they'd toss together a website quick, essentially just to have in case trials worked out well. So, then they would be ready to hit the races if good results were in place.

(3) they didn't realize just how desperate bald people are, and found that their project went viral before they could do trials

(4) So, they have a website they thought nobody would see, and that backfired.


Given the above, I don't really see anything on their website as "claims" and rather see it as in the context I explained above... just getting the website ready.


This is essentially the same with Hairegen.... their site isn't together yet (missing some photos on a page or two, etc.) but the site is live. Unfortunately for them, that leaked and now it spread like wildfire... and they aren't quite ready for launch yet or done with the website yet. 



The above is the most probably scenario.... THE OTHER possible scenario is:

(1) the illuminati are behind both follicept and hairegen.

(2) everyone on tbt is a potential follicept chrony/spy/shill

(3) nobody can be trusted. Ever.

(4) both comapnies are investing billions of dollars to perpetuate and build up their scams so that they can hit the market and make a cool million dollars before their operations get outed as scams and shut down.... then they sit back, and enjoy losing millions of dollars on their scam.... and....arashi was right

----------


## Swooping

Still zero results? How surprising  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .

----------


## serenemoon

> Still zero results? How surprising .


 Yeah because if we had seen results by now, you all would definitely not be accusing them of being a scam.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Afghanwig

> Yeah because if we had seen results by now, you all would definitely not be accusing them of being a scam.


 Agreed, results now would be more indicative of a scam. However I don't particular like the way it's going now neither. No results on the only patient that we can verify, Devon, yet the others think they 'see some vellus hairs'. If that's how it's going to play out, no results for Devon but magical results for all the others), then I'd definitely wouldn't trust this.

----------


## serenemoon

> Agreed, results now would be more indicative of a scam. However I don't particular like the way it's going now neither. No results on the only patient that we can verify, Devon, yet the others think they 'see some vellus hairs'. If that's how it's going to play out, no results for Devon but magical results for all the others) then I'd definitely wouldn't trust this.


 I too find it a bit silly how some people are already happy over some "vellous hairs" but It doesn't matter what the others think. I am assuming Devon will need some good terminal growth to show a difference. It is easier to see vellous on a slick bald scalp. (I am not saying there is definitely vellous, but yeah bald person will show vellous over Devon. At the end of the day we can only wait for terminals.)

----------


## Afghanwig

> It doesn't matter what the others think


 Agreed. I don't care at all about those other test candidates. It's only Devon that we can follow so he should grow results.

----------


## serenemoon

> Agreed. I don't care at all about those other test candidates. It's only Devon that we can follow so he should grow results.


 Yeah if Devon grows a good amount of hair, then it would be really hard to accuse them of being a scam. And StayThick too.

----------


## Afghanwig

> Yeah if Devon grows a good amount of hair, then it would be really hard to accuse them of being a scam. And StayThick too.


 How do you know he's not on Finasteride ? You don't. Devon growing hair would definitely be a good begin and would get me interested, but still very very far from being convinced. The science is not on their side (igf-1 proven not to work on humans in previous trials), so if it would work now, I'd need way more proof than somebody at their office growing hair .... But yes, it would be a start.

----------


## serenemoon

> How do you know he's not on Finasteride ? You don't. Devon growing hair would definitely be a good begin and would get me interested, but still very very far from being convinced. The science is not on their side (igf-1 proven not to work on humans in previous trials), so if it would work now, I'd need way more proof than somebody at their office growing hair .... But yes, it would be a start.


 Maybe StayThick will put doubts to rest then? He is a long term forum user, and yeah we could accuse him of things too, but then again, I think chances are very low there.

----------


## Afghanwig

> Maybe StayThick will put doubts to rest then? He is a long term forum user, and yeah we could accuse him of things too, but then again, I think chances are very low there.


 I don't see much difference between Staythick and Follicept. He's been supporting follicept all along, even said we shouldnt care about lighting in photo's and other weird remarks like that. So no, I don't trust him at all. Hellouser, now that would be a trustworthy forum member. Or Swooping. If both Hellouser and Swooping would grow hair, I'd buy this product the same day ! But this Staythick guy, I don't care much about. I wouldn't see any difference between Devon growing hair or StayThick growing hair.

----------


## serenemoon

> I don't see much difference between Staythick and Follicept. He's been supporting follicept all along, even said we shouldnt care about lighting in photo's and other weird remarks like that. So no, I don't trust him at all. Hellouser, now that would be a trustworthy forum member. Or Swooping. If both Hellouser and Swooping would grow hair, I'd buy this product the same day ! But this Staythick guy, I don't care much about.


 Nah, he has been skeptical multiple times. But okay, if hellouser and swooping growing hair is what you need in order to buy it, so be it.

----------


## Afghanwig

> Nah, he has been skeptical multiple times. But okay, if hellouser and swooping growing hair is what you need in order to buy it, so be it.


 Most definitely. If the science would be on their side, I probably might buy it sooner. But since we know IGF-1 didnt do anything in previous human trails, via injections, it would make no sense at all that it suddenly would work now, because of a different vehicle, that's total nonsense of course. So yeah, I'd need to see some really credible proof.

----------


## serenemoon

> Most defintely. If the science would be on their side, I'd probably might buy it sooner. But since we know IGF-1 didnt do anything in previous human trails, via injections, it would make no sense at all that it suddenly would work now, because of a different vehicle, that's total nonsense of course. So yeah, I'd need to see some really credible proof.


 You do know the frequency is also really different, right? it is 12 doses for one month with Follicept, which has NEVER been tried before. And when on earth did a trial directly inject IGF-1 to the head? I wanna see this study. LOL.

----------


## Swooping

> Yeah because if we had seen results by now, you all would definitely not be accusing them of being a scam.


 This will never be a viable potential treatment. Sorry to break your dreams.

Devon honestly I'll give you one sincere tip at least. Stop with these subjects. You need subjects who are suffering from telogen effluvium (TE). Women mostly have to cope with that. In theory your product has way way more potential in relation to the  TE pathology. Read "Resting no more: re-defining telogen, the maintenance stage of the hair growth cycle (2014)"




> http://s14.postimg.org/fqknab2tt/gffactors.jpg


 I think you are smart enough to understand why it would have at least some theoretical merit to the pathology of TE. Especially as IGF-1 stimulates the AKT pathway. Or were you guys already going to do this? 

Btw Devon why would I shame you? You are at the forefront of the mind of Dr. Hsu. He clearly lacks rational thought in my opinion. Furthermore he calls himself a expert in hair follicle biology. But if you are going to compare the fuzzy rat to be similar to the pathology of AGA then he is far from a expert. Or he lacks rational thought, it's that simple. Smart in textbooks, but clearly flying in the clouds. Anyway if I were you I would start looking for people who are suffering from TE, at least that gives you some chance to prove something.

----------


## Afghanwig

> You do know the frequency is also really different, right? it is 12 doses for one month with Follicept, which has NEVER been tried before. And when on earth did a trial directly inject IGF-1 to the head? I wanna see this study. LOL.


 Doses only matter so much. If something is effective it most likely would show results on lower doses too. It never did.

----------


## serenemoon

> Doses only matter so much. If something is effective it most likely would show results on lower doses too. It never did.


 I just checked, zero studies on IGF-1 directly being injected to the scalp.

----------


## Afghanwig

> I just checked, zero studies on IGF-1 directly being injected to the scalp.


 Histogen injected, Arvid Armani concluded in 2011 that IGF-1 was the growth factor least associated with hairgrowth and then there are tons of people who tried it in combo with dermarolling/needling for example and some who even tried with real needles. Never any noteworthy results.

----------


## serenemoon

> Histogen injected, Arvid Armani concluded in 2011 that IGF-1 was the growth factor least associated with hairgrowth and then there are tons of people who tried it in combo with dermarolling/needling for example and some who even tried with real needles. Never any noteworthy results.


 Histogen works. Sure, not massive amounts of hair, but it was also one shot injection, not 12 doses. 

I see no mention of Arvid Armani or any of his studies online, so I can't comment on that. IF the argument is that IGF-1 is present in lowest numbers, that means nothing. It may be more powerful than other growth factor present in much larger numbers, it may upregulate other growth factors which is perhaps why the other growth factors are much larger in number. I am not saying this is necessarily the case,but IGF-1 being the growth factor "least associated" doesn't mean that it is not the most powerful/most impactful. How is "association" defined by Arvid Armani? By numbers/percentage of growth factor present? By some other factor? That is the question here. 

People trying it with dermarolling and needling means nothing. Did they use real IGF-1? Was it in a stable formulation? Those things matter. If one uses those anecdotal stories to say that IGF-1 does not work, then why shouldn't one use anecdotal stories of bodybuilders injecting IGF-1 and growing hair to say that IGF-1 does work?

----------


## Arashi

> Histogen works. Sure, not massive amounts of hair, but it was also one shot injection, not 12 doses. 
> 
> I see no mention of Arvid Armani or any of his studies online, so I can't comment on that. IF the argument is that IGF-1 is present in lowest numbers, that means nothing. It may be more powerful than other growth factor present in much larger numbers, it may upregulate other growth factors which is perhaps why the other growth factors are much larger in number. I am not saying this is necessarily the case,but IGF-1 being the growth factor "least associated" doesn't mean that it is not the most powerful/most impactful. How is "association" defined by Arvid Armani? By numbers/percentage of growth factor present? By some other factor? That is the question here. 
> 
> People trying it with dermarolling and needling means nothing. Did they use real IGF-1? Was it in a stable formulation? Those things matter. If one uses those anecdotal stories to say that IGF-1 does not work, then why shouldn't one use anecdotal stories of bodybuilders injecting IGF-1 and growing hair to say that IGF-1 does work?


 These growthfactors have been along for quite a while. People tried all kinds of combo's, nothing worked. Yeah you keep saying that they did it wrong, it was unstable or somebody accidentally switched their bottle or what more excuses. Fact is that this is highly unlikely to work. Not 100% impossible maybe, I'll give you that, but highly unlikely. Which means I won't trust a guy at some company alone. I'd need way more proof. That was my whole point.

----------


## Afghanwig

> Histogen works. Sure, not massive amounts of hair, but it was also one shot injection, not 12 doses. 
> 
> I see no mention of Arvid Armani or any of his studies online, so I can't comment on that. IF the argument is that IGF-1 is present in lowest numbers, that means nothing. It may be more powerful than other growth factor present in much larger numbers, it may upregulate other growth factors which is perhaps why the other growth factors are much larger in number. I am not saying this is necessarily the case,but IGF-1 being the growth factor "least associated" doesn't mean that it is not the most powerful/most impactful. How is "association" defined by Arvid Armani? By numbers/percentage of growth factor present? By some other factor? That is the question here. 
> 
> People trying it with dermarolling and needling means nothing. Did they use real IGF-1? Was it in a stable formulation? Those things matter. If one uses those anecdotal stories to say that IGF-1 does not work, then why shouldn't one use anecdotal stories of bodybuilders injecting IGF-1 and growing hair to say that IGF-1 does work?


  Ok you win. This will work then.

----------


## Afghanwig

Just saw the pictures on their website, lol, what a joke, they're shooting pictures in all angles, see that guy with his week1,2,3 pictures. What are we supposed to do with that ?

----------


## bigentries

> You also called Pilox "dubious", etc. when vraf posted his honest results (which weren't even remotely impressive). Why would a "Scammer company" be posting pictures with very "vanilla" results... and in an amateur picture-style with toilets in the background? Especially when we've seen how good the Pilox photography is? 
> 
> 
> Simply to point out that you have just as BAD a track record at spotting scams as you do a GOOD track record. People should realize that you have wrongfully bashed companies before... and they should take everything you post with a grain of salt.


 LOL. They were not impressive? I can find post from you were you said vrafs pics were impressive. Why did you changed your mind now? I remember you did the same crap with Chlorine and CG210

Seriously dude, you are the one with a horrible bad record, Arashi is like a saint to bald guys. You are the perfect mark for scammer. You get way too emotionally attached to anything that gives you any hope

Let Arashi do his magic. Why do you love to argue so much when all the scams that you have pushed just end up burning you? I think you should learn your lesson by now, you are a poison to every community you join

----------


## GSD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XklcMnm5x3k

the real trials starts 1.7  :Big Grin:

----------


## serenemoon

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XklcMnm5x3k


 All the haters need to watch this,

----------


## Afghanwig

> All the haters need to watch this,


 Why exactly ?

----------


## serenemoon

Straight from Dr. Hsu...

"Steve Hsu here. I forgot to mention that during my conversation yesterday, "staythick" and I discovered that we have both struggled with autoimmune alopecia areata. We laughed for a good 10 minutes about losing our eyebrows and eyelashes even! As a physician, I say to my patients who are facing serious and often life-threatening disease, "I CAN'T imagine what you and your family and loved ones must be going through." I've never had metastatic cancer. How can I know? This time it's different. I HAVE experienced and continue to experience the psychological and emotional effects that nearly all of you have shared. I interviewed at Harvard for my residency with moth-eaten hair, wondering if I wouldn't be accepted because the interviewers thought I was dying of cancer. I didn't date until pretty late in my life because I was so self-conscious. And I am also at week 3 of Follicept, even though I don't know if I have AGA, for receding hairline and thinning on the vertex. I can fully understand what you are going through. Thanks for watching and commenting."

----------


## Hemo

> Still zero results? How surprising .


 It's been 3 weeks and half of their subjects are beyond help IMO.  I don't think follicept will work but still think it's too early to definitively say so.  Wish they'd trial AAPE instead.  And I understand Dr. Hsu's reasoning for pulse therapy, but it doesn't seem like he's very sure about how long each "pulse" should be.

----------


## nameless

> These growthfactors have been along for quite a while. People tried all kinds of combo's, nothing worked. Yeah you keep saying that they did it wrong, it was unstable or somebody accidentally switched their bottle or what more excuses. Fact is that this is highly unlikely to work. Not 100% impossible maybe, I'll give you that, but highly unlikely. Which means I won't trust a guy at some company alone. I'd need way more proof. That was my whole point.


 Follicles are not being given these growth factors often enough...that is why growth factors are not growing a lot of hair. 

In the wild naturally ADSCs nourish follicles with these growth factors often, but so far these growth factors are being injected only once a month or even less frequently. That is the problem. 

When we have these growth factors injected we are trying to make up for the growth factors that were lost when our ADSC count reduced. It's basic math. For example, if you produce 2 mls of growth factors with 100 ADSCs then you will only produce 1 ml of growth factors if you lose half of your growth factors. In aga our number of ADSCs reduce and therefore the growth factors produced by ADSCs also reduces. When we inject growth factors we are trying to do manually offset that loss of growth factors. The ADSCs are excreting those growth factors more often than once a month so once a month injections of these growth factors are insufficient.

----------


## Afghanwig

> It's been 3 weeks and half of their subjects are beyond help IMO.  I don't think follicept will work but still think it's too early to definitively say so.  Wish they'd trial AAPE instead.  And I understand Dr. Hsu's reasoning for pulse therapy, but it doesn't seem like he's very sure about how long each "pulse" should be.


 You were so positive, what changed your mind ?

----------


## Hemo

> You were so positive, what changed your mind ?


 All I ever said was "Wait and see" because you and Arashi (assuming you're different people) wouldn't shut up about them being scammers.  I still think they're legit and simply jumped the gun w/ the press release and such.  I even advocated that this thread be locked until conclusive results are out.

----------


## just2hairs

Sometimes you can just tell if a person is a con-artist or a scammer from the way they speak and carry themselves.  Dr. Hsu is definitely neither one of those.  He and Devon are legit.  Now, will their product work or not....nobody knows at this point.  But i'm grateful to have Dr Hsu on our side.

----------


## breakbot

> This will never be a viable potential treatment. Sorry to break your dreams.
> 
> Devon honestly I'll give you one sincere tip at least. Stop with these subjects. You need subjects who are suffering from telogen effluvium (TE). Women mostly have to cope with that. In theory your product has way way more potential in relation to the  TE pathology. Read "Resting no more: re-defining telogen, the maintenance stage of the hair growth cycle (2014)"
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are smart enough to understand why it would have at least some theoretical merit to the pathology of TE. Especially as IGF-1 stimulates the AKT pathway. Or were you guys already going to do this? 
> 
> Btw Devon why would I shame you? You are at the forefront of the mind of Dr. Hsu. He clearly lacks rational thought in my opinion. Furthermore he calls himself a expert in hair follicle biology. But if you are going to compare the fuzzy rat to be similar to the pathology of AGA then he is far from a expert. Or he lacks rational thought, it's that simple. Smart in textbooks, but clearly flying in the clouds. Anyway if I were you I would start looking for people who are suffering from TE, at least that gives you some chance to prove something.


  i agree. 
if a growth factor works it should be only on the hair cycle of the follicle and im sure they know it.

----------


## Afghanwig

> Sometimes you can just tell if a person is a con-artist or a scammer from the way they speak and carry themselves.  Dr. Hsu is definitely neither one of those.  He and Devon are legit.  Now, will their product work or not....nobody knows at this point.  But i'm grateful to have Dr Hsu on our side.


 Yes. Scammers have a somewhat squeaky voice. Most of them have big ears and you can also spot a scammer by the weird angle in their noses. They have a certain walk, almost like they're shuffling. Luckily we see none of that in Dr Hsu.

----------


## serenemoon

> These growthfactors have been along for quite a while. People tried all kinds of combo's, nothing worked. Yeah you keep saying that they did it wrong, it was unstable or somebody accidentally switched their bottle or what more excuses. Fact is that this is highly unlikely to work. Not 100% impossible maybe, I'll give you that, but highly unlikely. Which means I won't trust a guy at some company alone. I'd need way more proof. That was my whole point.


 Histogen is a combo that has been tried. Histogen shows results, no? Maybe they are not mindblowing, but surely clinically significant and continued to grow hair..The truth is that IGF-1 IS very unstable. Truly. But I understand why you feel it is "highly unlikely." Competely get it. At least you are open to the possibility of it working somewhat. That is what matters. Are YOU open to believing StayThick's results, out of curiousity? Considering that you actually have seen the guy be active for such a long time..

----------


## Afghanwig

I was just reading their thread on their site, man it's Pilox all over again, no wonder NeedhairASAP is bringing it up so much in this thread ... People who think they see a difference comparing day 0 to week 3, on photo's that are really impossible to conclude anything at all on ... Sigh.

----------


## hairisbeautiful

Swooping, you clearly lack rational thought. Your first issue is you think you are educated on the matter, but in reality, sadly, and unfortunately you are not qualified enough to shoot down someone who probably has 2 more degrees than you. Your comments from the peanut gallery are quite entertaining. I honestly love to look through the forums and try to spot out hardos like you who need to FIO. Get a job in your field (trash man?) or try to get a masters and pursue learning about hairloss (your opinions are formulated merely on articles, forums, and publications.lol).  :Cool:

----------


## Afghanwig

> (your opinions are formulated merely on *articles*, forums, and *publications*.lol).


 You do realize that's how most scientists formulate their opinions ? Apart from that, swooping is posting scientific articles, all you post are insults.

----------


## Justinian

I posted this before but Greco's PRP formula has IGF-1 in it and in studies it has shown 10-20% regrowth. That is via injection.

----------


## Afghanwig

> I posted this before but Greco's PRP formula has IGF-1 in it and in studies it has shown 10-20% regrowth. That is via injection.


 You mean this study: http://grecomedicalgroup.com/eblast/...iavone-PRP.pdf where they judged results by the Jaeschke Mickey Mouse Scale ?

----------


## hair4us2

> It's been 3 weeks and half of their subjects are beyond help IMO.  I don't think follicept will work but still think it's too early to definitively say so.  Wish they'd trial AAPE instead.  And I understand Dr. Hsu's reasoning for pulse therapy, but it doesn't seem like he's very sure about how long each "pulse" should be.


 3 weeks is a very short time to judge a hair regrowth treatment. Granted that Follicept gave people the wrong hope that they expected to "see positive results in a few weeks." https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ht=#post205061

Most people who have tried a hair regrowth treatment know that hair really does take time to regrow, and that it is not going to happen in a "few weeks", if it happens at all!

I think you need to give them at least 6 months to decide if it has the potential to regrow hair.

You could blame Follicept for being extremely naive and pushing this unrealistic hair growth time frame, but I also think we ourselves collectively are also to blame because we want to believe these claims.

It is like someone who wants to lose 14 pounds of weight in 2 weeks: it us very unrealistic to achieve it in reality!

----------


## Justinian

> You mean this study: http://grecomedicalgroup.com/eblast/...iavone-PRP.pdf where they judged results by the Jaeschke Mickey Mouse Scale ?


 http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/760709/

I know Greco is doing/did some studies with Italians. I'm not sure if it's the same people.

----------


## Afghanwig

> http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/760709/
> 
> I know Greco is doing/did some studies with Italians. I'm not sure if it's the same people.


 That's a study looking into the effects of PRP on AA patients, *not* on AGA patients. Further more it's a pilot study, not a controlled one. And then, PRP is different from administering growth factors directly and even more different from administering a single growth factor like IGF-1.

----------


## Justinian

> That's a study looking into the effects of PRP on AA patients, *not* on AGA patients. Further more it's a pilot study, not a controlled one. And then, PRP is different from administering growth factors directly and even more different from administering a single growth factor like IGF-1.


 You're right, it's easy to confuse AA for androgenic alopecia. There are other studies showing it is effective too such as http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4134641/

----------


## Arashi

> You're right, it's easy to confuse AA for androgenic alopecia. There are other studies showing it is effective too such as http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4134641/


 Yeah that's AGA. However again, a pilot study without control. And also again, PRP might be very different from administering growth factors directly. The idea with PRP is that it secretes growth factors. Yet it might really be something else to inject growth factors directly. And then there's Follicept, who only injects one growth factor, which also happens to be the growth factor LEAST associated with hair growth:

http://i.imgur.com/ouAGMWB.png

----------


## Swooping

> 3 weeks is a very short time to judge a hair regrowth treatment. Granted that Follicept gave people the wrong hope that they expected to "see positive results in a few weeks." https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...ht=#post205061
> 
> Most people who have tried a hair regrowth treatment know that hair really does take time to regrow, and that it is not going to happen in a "few weeks", if it happens at all!
> 
> I think you need to give them at least 6 months to decide if it has the potential to regrow hair.
> 
> You could blame Follicept for being extremely naive and pushing this unrealistic hair growth time frame, but I also think we ourselves collectively are also to blame because we want to believe these claims.
> 
> It is like someone who wants to lose 14 pounds of weight in 2 weeks: it us very unrealistic to achieve it in reality!


 Hair counts from minoxidil *peak* already at 12-16 weeks.

----------


## StayThick

[IMG][/IMG]


For those that do not know, I was given the opportunity by Devon and Dr. Hsu @ Follicept to meet with them, pick their brain, find out more about the company, their motives, and ultimately be a part of the current friends and family trial they have going on at the moment. I didn't think Devon would take me up on my initial offer on here to want in on the trial and for the purposes of tracking my experience and findings on this forum, but he did. Considering the majority backlash he has received here, he did relay the offer and I took him on it. I hope it's helpful for the community since I live in FL and have been member for a few years now. If anybody wants to even question me, point their finger and say I work for Follicept or some other lunacy, challenge my integrity, or any of the other nonsense I have seen day in and day out on this forum for years then I will say right now....go bleep yourself and simply don't follow the thread.

About my experience, my experience was a positive one. I got a first hand glance at their operation and had the luxury of meeting with Dr. Hsu himself at his home to have an open dialogue regarding this potential hair loss treatment. I can say this, Dr. Hsu is a very intelligent dude and he explained the science behind this treatment and his strong belief in his proprietary delivery vehicle, which he believes is key to all this obviously.

I do not know if this will work. My honest opinion? Devon and Dr. Hsu do not know if this will work 100%, but what I do know is that Dr. Hsu believes in this enough to attempt a small, quick trial to gather any information he can from the individuals trialing it. They wasted no time guys. They wanted to see if this has potential right now on humans or not versus having to wait for funding, etc. to start to a proper trial. I have no problem being a guinea pig for something I believe is safe. I just don't.  It's that simple. 

The attached picture is the 12-gel vials I have for the month. I was told to apply each on M-W-F for 4 straight weeks and then wait. Wait to see if the effects (if any) continue, get worse, or stay stagnate. That's the interesting part. The team doesn't know what to expect after this time period, but Dr. Hsu has a theory and wants to see the effects after treatment. BTW- I am currently taking no hair-loss treatments as I have stopped Rogaine for quite some time and Propecia.  Shampoo I use is Revita if anybody cares to know that.

I have already taken baseline photos, but will take a few more tonight to post on this forum and this forum only. Let's see if this shows promise or not. Hopefully, I can provide my insight and experience to help you all formulate your own opinion on this treatment. That's my goal. I hope this works to some degree. 

Wish me luck.

----------


## Sogeking

I always welcome testing potential treatments. Have to say I am sceptical about this working but I definitely want it to work. I hope you get regrowth StayThick. And I hope you'll keep us posted.

----------


## Dimoxynil

Good luck mate. All the best with it

----------


## noisette

> [IMG][/IMG]
> 
> Wish me luck.


 Good luck bro.

----------


## luca10

Good luck!!

----------


## just2hairs

Thanks and good luck, Staythick!  It's good to see a senior member doing something productive, and not just come on here to be almighty and beating their chest.

----------


## Nhc

I'll wait for good feed back.

----------


## serenemoon

Good luck StayThick!

----------


## StayThick

Update:I am now a few hours removed from my second dose of Follicept's treatment and I'm very, very concerned. My crown area hours after my 2nd application started  produce the dreaded "itch" and it felt slightly inflamed.

I rubbed the area and I can officially say I'm shedding hair like I have never seen before. Small clumps were coming out as I rubbed slightly vigorously over the area of itch. I don't know what to make of this and I'm considering stopping due to the volume of loss already even after 2 doses!

This sucks. I've never seen this much fall in such a short period nor have I experienced a shed like this ever! I emailed Devon and I'm debating on what to do. Wanted to share.

----------


## Keki

Very strange i don't think they have some sort of aggressive ingredients in their formulation, try to put a little of follicept on your arms and scratch a little  like an allergy test

----------


## follicept

> Update:I am now a few hours removed from my second dose of Follicept's treatment and I'm very, very concerned. My crown area hours after my 2nd application started  produce the dreaded "itch" and it felt slightly inflamed.
> 
> I rubbed the area and I can officially say I'm shedding hair like I have never seen before. Small clumps were coming out as I rubbed slightly vigorously over the area of itch. I don't know what to make of this and I'm considering stopping due to the volume of loss already even after 2 doses!
> 
> This sucks. I've never seen this much fall in such a short period nor have I experienced a shed like this ever! I emailed Devon and I'm debating on what to do. Wanted to share.


 Really sorry to hear that! Dr. Hsu is on the phone with StayThick now. Sounds like an allergic reaction to the components. We haven't had any other subjects report any adverse events at all. Some might suggest that it could mean the treatment is working, but not sure if he should continue if it is an allergic reaction.

----------


## serenemoon

That really sucks.  :Frown:  I am so sorry. It sounds like an allergic reaction to me...

----------


## StayThick

So I was advised to wash it off which I did. The area doesn't look like it experienced an allergic reaction just because I checked in bright lighting after leaving the scalp alone from rubbing and its not red at all. It just literally caused my hair to start coming out but only in the crown area where there is obviously still hair, but none in the hairline area which is more or less extremely thin/bald. That's the confusing part.

Don't know what to make of this. I'll consider one more application on Monday, but this might be a short trial. Sorry guys, I'm just alarmed by what occurred.

----------


## serenemoon

> So I was advised to wash it off which I did. The area doesn't look like it experienced an allergic reaction just because I checked in bright lighting after leaving the scalp alone from rubbing and its not red at all. It just literally caused my hair to start coming out but only in the crown area where there is obviously still hair, but none in the hairline area which is more or less extremely thin/bald. That's the confusing part.
> 
> Don't know what to make of this. I'll consider one more application on Monday, but this might be a short trial. Sorry guys, I'm just alarmed by what occurred.


 It's okay man. Sorry you went through this, and thanks for trying. Hope you are feeling okay. You are not using any other hair products like gel, are you?

----------


## StayThick

> It's okay man. Sorry you went through this, and thanks for trying. Hope you are feeling okay. You are not using any other hair products like gel, are you?


 It's ok, I just need to figure out if I should continue at this point. 

And no, I was advised to not apply any hair products during treatment and I have not.

----------


## Keki

How many hairs did you shed?

----------


## Jagger

That sounds crazy! What are the odds that the one external tester reacted in such a negative way...does not bode well. Sorry about what happened, StayThick, that is very concerning.

----------


## StayThick

> How many hairs did you shed?


 I have a pic of my sink after I shampooed. Most of the hair went down the drain and yet still dozen upon dozen of hair remained on the side walls. This all after it was coming out prior. I just don't know the exact count obviously, but it was a ton. Abnormal amount clearly..and so quick. I don't understand how quickly this happened. 

I'm bummed out.

----------


## Keki

Did you wash your hair before the application? I mean i shed like 80+ hair per wash, if it's not allergic reaction it could be possible that a sticky gel got tons of alredy dead hairs

----------


## serenemoon

> I have a pic of my sink after I shampooed. Most of the hair went down the drain and yet still dozen upon dozen of hair remained on the side walls. This all after it was coming out prior. I just don't know the exact count obviously, but it was a ton. Abnormal amount clearly..and so quick. I don't understand how quickly this happened. 
> 
> I'm bummed out.


 I don't know if all this hair coming out is a good sign or not, but yikes. This is scary and very unsettling.

----------


## thejack

A shed is normally a good thing right?

----------


## Keki

> A shed is normally a good thing right?


 A shed happen only with minox becuse it push and synchronize a new hair cycle, so it's a good thing only for minox users

----------


## StayThick

> A shed is normally a good thing right?


 Guys the concern I have is how quickly this all occurred. I haven't had a shed in God knows how long. Just sporadic shedding daily like most. Trust me, I pay attention to anything/everything that involves my hair. In the shower, when I brush, etc. 

I can confirm this was rather startling for me. How can shedding be a good thing in my case considering I've only used 2 vials!!! 

I explained this to the Follicept team and they mentioned of few theories but they don't know for sure obviously.

I've been on this forum for a while, I've seen people try RU, Propecia, Rogaine, etc. and experience sheds, but usually it takes a little time for this to occur.

Where I am hung up is after the 2nd dose? Thoughts guys? Wtf.

----------


## cuprous

> A shed happen only with minox becuse it push and synchronize a new hair cycle, so it's a good thing only for minox users


 This could also be happening to StayThick.  His scalp could be kicking off a whole new hair growth cycle with the shed being the first sign.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, StayThick.

----------


## serenemoon

> Guys the concern I have is how quickly this all occurred. I haven't had a shed in God knows how long. Just sporadic shedding daily like most. Trust me, I pay attention to anything/everything that involves my hair. In the shower, when I brush, etc. 
> 
> I can confirm this was rather startling for me. How can shedding be a good thing in my case considering I've only used 2 vials!!! 
> 
> I explained this to the Follicept team and they mentioned of few theories but they don't know for sure obviously.
> 
> I've been on this forum for a while, I've seen people try RU, Propecia, Rogaine, etc. and experience sheds, but usually it takes a little time for this to occur.
> 
> Where I am king up is after the 2nd dose? Thoughts guys? Wtf.


 Here ya go.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11176691

http://archderm.jamanetwork.com/arti...ticleid=478194

----------


## Keki

> This could also be happening to StayThick.  His scalp could be kicking off a whole new hair growth cycle with the shed being the first sign.
> 
> I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, StayThick.


 this is not possible in 2 days come on...

it's interestign because

1) Reaction on the second application and not the first one, while if it was an allergy it should have started a soon as he applied it
2) shed only in area with good density
3) itch but not inflammed skin


dunno dude, if i were in you i would try a last HALF dose tomorrow and see what happen (maybe wash before and after), if you are concerned about an allergy then drop the treatment

----------


## serenemoon

What shampoo/conditioner do you use? Curious. This is definitely assumption on my part, but it may be that contact dermatitis was caused by shampoo residue reacting with Follicept gel? If you are going to try this again, I would even suggest using a mild shampoo, maybe even a natural/organic one (though that won't guanratee that you won't get it again for sure, but worth a shot.)

----------


## StayThick

> this is not possible in 2 days come on...
> 
> it's interestign because
> 
> 1) Reaction on the second application and not the first one, while if it was an allergy it should have started a soon as he applied it
> 2) shed only in area with good density
> 3) itch but not inflammed skin
> 
> 
> dunno dude, if i were in you i would try a last HALF dose tomorrow and see what happen (maybe wash before and after), if you are concerned about an allergy then drop the treatment


 Remember, the treatment schedule is M-W-F. So I'm not due for another application until Monday...and I'm scared the F to do it.

What would you honestly do considering my situation? I told Devon and Steve my concerns and the next few days would be vital in seeing how my hair reacts. Come Monday, I might apply another dose and monitor but for now I'm going to see how my scalp acts the next few days before committing. That's how alarmed I am.

----------


## StayThick

> What shampoo/conditioner do you use? Curious. This is definitely assumption on my part, but it may be that contact dermatitis was caused by shampoo residue reacting with Follicept gel? If you are going to try this again, I would even suggest using a mild shampoo, maybe even a natural/organic one (though that won't guanratee that you won't get it again for sure, but worth a shot.)


 I use Revita shampoo and conditioner. Never had any issues with this combo before.

----------


## serenemoon

> I use Revita shampoo and conditioner. Never had any issues with this combo before.


 I hear ya. My concern is not the shampoo/conditioner itself, but its residue and its reaction with follicept gel. Worth a shot, but it is your call. I can only imagine the fear you feel. I am positive it is contact dermatitis though. TE happens with contact dermatitis.

----------


## serenemoon

Would you be open to trying it on a small swatch of skin?

----------


## Keki

Dude i suggest you to use a natural shampoo while using follicept, remember a lot of shit can pass the stratum corneum with their vehicle, shit that is not designed to pass the skin, just use water, a really fast shampoo to get rid of the sebum and dead hairs, wait a little and use half doses to see what happen, it dooesn't make any sense the allergic reaction to half scalp where you had density while nothing on the thin side

serenemoon that study talk about telogen effluvium 4 month after the dermatitis, i mean it could still be possible but only with an acid chinese crap which burn everything or a real allergic reaction

----------


## StayThick

> Would you be open to trying it on a small swatch of skin?


 Where on leg hair, arm hair? I would be willing to try this yes.

----------


## serenemoon

> Where on leg hair, arm hair? I would be willing to try this yes.


 Wonderful. Try it on your leg, I say. I wanna see if it causes irritation and itch there too.

----------


## StayThick

> Wonderful. Try it on your leg, I say. I wanna see if it causes irritation and itch there too.


 I'm currently waiting for the vial to turn into gel. I'll be attempting this shortly.

----------


## bigentries

You better show your pics StayThick

I choose to remain skeptic to many big claims, for and against. Do you understand what you are claiming it's a pretty big deal? Maybe you are imagining the amount of shedding, it's easy to get paranoid when starting a treatment, specially something that at this point it's experimental

----------


## serenemoon

> You better show your pics StayThick
> 
> I choose to remain skeptic to many big claims, for and against. Do you understand what you are claiming it's a pretty big deal? Maybe you are imagining the amount of shedding, it's easy to get paranoid when starting a treatment, specially something that at this point it's experimental


 Leave the dude alone man, This is not the time.

----------


## serenemoon

> I'm currently waiting for the vial to turn into gel. I'll be attempting this shortly.


 Okay, hoping for the best! Thanks for even trying this out.

----------


## bigentries

> Leave the dude alone man, This is not the time.


 If not now, when?

Seriously, it is a big claim, but we've seen NW1s with sick density who talk about how awful their hair loss is.

He chose to make this public, he is not immune to questioning.

If I was him, and he is really saying the truth, then I would have waited a little bit to inform the community. People here are already giving him medical advice and posting clinical studies explaining the reaction. I think follicept should be the ones taking care of him at the moment, not having people put ideas into his head

The first neutral trialist gets an adverse reaction a few days into its treatment. You either have to question his neutrality or Follicept ethics.

----------


## serenemoon

> If not now, when?
> 
> Seriously, it is a big claim, but we've seen NW1s with sick density who talk about how awful their hair loss is.
> 
> He chose to make this public, he is not immune to questioning.
> 
> If I was him, and he is really saying the truth, then I would have waited a little bit to inform the community. People here are already giving him medical advice and posting clinical studies explaining the reaction. I think follicept should be the ones taking care of him at the moment, not having people put ideas into his head
> 
> The first neutral trialist gets an adverse reaction a few days into it's treatment. You either have to question his neutrality or Follicept ethics.


 "People's" theories are valid, and similar to Follicept theories. Follicept has already given him direction. There is nothing here that has been said that Dr. Hsu hasn't suggested as possibilities. StayThick even asked for theories, not for us to come over and force him to do things.

The guy is alarmed. I am not surprised he informed the community this soon.

I agree that he is not immune to questioning, but have some compassion for the man. Instead of saying things like "You better show your pics StayThick." Things will come to light in their own time. Let him figure out what is going on first.

----------


## champpy

Could contact dermatitis only affect one area of the body, such as his crown where the shedding is occurring?  Im very interested to see how the area on the leg reacts. Sorry this is happening to you Staythick  :Frown:

----------


## FooFighter

Maybe he will start to grown hair like crazy in next days/weeks? Who knows? :Smile: 

Maybe this is just first reaction, because everybody react different on same drug/treatment.

----------


## StayThick

> If not now, when?
> 
> Seriously, it is a big claim, but we've seen NW1s with sick density who talk about how awful their hair loss is.
> 
> He chose to make this public, he is not immune to questioning.
> 
> If I was him, and he is really saying the truth, then I would have waited a little bit to inform the community. People here are already giving him medical advice and posting clinical studies explaining the reaction. I think follicept should be the ones taking care of him at the moment, not having people put ideas into his head
> 
> The first neutral trialist gets an adverse reaction a few days into its treatment. You either have to question his neutrality or Follicept ethics.


 
Dude, you're lucky I am even trying this. The whole reason I volunteered was for all of us on this very forum since it's the only one I have been a part of for years and it's filled with many depressed and angry skeptics. What pictures would you like from me?

The above pic is what my sink looked like after I already shed a ton of hair. The pic was taken right after I was advised to wash my hair when this was all occurring. Guess what? Majority hair went down the sink and look what remained on the side walls. This just gives you a "glimpse" to the reaction I had. Again, my hair was shedding quickly with an intense itch. This picture was taken after a shampoo and when most hair went down the drain. Take what you will, but that is no "it's in my head and I'm stressed type of shed." I mean are you kidding me. Are you really questioning my sanity and the hair that was all over my hands, pillow, and sink?

Why would you want me to wait before informing you guys? I have no problem doing that moving forward if I attempt to do more applications, but I don't understand where you're going with that statement. I would think this alarming situation would be something I would want to see on this very forum if one experienced this. Wouldn't you? You don't make any sense. I am trialing this for everyone on this forum and wanted to report my progress and experience throughout, including this unforeseen situation. 

I also took pics of the area on my leg I applied a little of a 3rd vial too. Currently, I am waiting to see if there is going to be a reaction. Devon advised I try this as well. I'll be reporting back soon.

----------


## Keki

Dude some photo with a freaking 10/10 women and a 10/10 guy are public, you may want make them private

btw if that guy is you i don't think you have aga at all looking from behind, zero thinning on top

----------


## StayThick

> Dude some photo with a freaking 10/10 women and a 10/10 guy are public, you may want make them private


 Keki, Not sure what happened. I'm having issues uploading. 10/10 woman? 10/10 guy?

----------


## bigentries

> Are you really questioning my sanity and the hair that was all over my hands, pillow, and sink?


 I question the sanity of anyone that goes into a half-assed trial of an experimental treatment. Your hairs, dude, I don't even know you, how am I supposed to know without pictures, past and present?

I said that you could have waited until things calmed down. Maybe in a few days you'll say you might exaggerated a little bit. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, these kind of reactions can affect the company badly. It's great to the community to know things 24/7, but you can only see the big picture in retrospect

I don't even know if they are breaking any law if they give something to people that can have these sort of side effects. I honestly expected some ambiguos thing from all this, not good or bad

----------


## Keki

Yep in the same album there were a baby a man and a women and everyone were beautiful lol, dunno if it's you and your family, you may want to put the sink and leg picture in a new album and make the other pics private

----------


## StayThick

> Yep in the same album there were a baby a man and a women and everyone were beautiful lol, dunno if it's you and your family, you may want to put the sink and leg picture in a new album and make the other pics private


 Keki, thanks for informing me on this. The woman is my girlfriend, the baby is my newborn niece, the gentleman my younger brother who got fortunate from a hair standpoint. Thanks for the kind words.

I'll need to find another way to upload these and yes I made everything private now. Thank you.

----------


## Keki

You can make an album on imgur, just drag the pics, as easy as that  :Smile:

----------


## StayThick

> I question the sanity of anyone that goes into a half-assed trial of an experimental treatment. Your hairs, dude, I don't even know you, how am I supposed to know without pictures, past and present?
> 
> I said that you could have waited until things calmed down. Maybe in a few days you'll say you might exaggerated a little bit. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, these kind of reactions can affect the company badly. It's great to the community to know things 24/7, but you can only see the big picture in retrospect
> 
> I don't even know if they are breaking any law if they give something to people that can have these sort of side effects. I honestly expected some ambiguos thing from all this, not good or bad


 I guess I reacted quickly because of how concerned I was. I still would not have hid this information from the forum or Devon and Dr. Hsu at Follicept. In fact, they have encouraged me throughout to post my honest, personal experience on this forum so that's what I planned to do.

----------


## Keki

Well i will go to bed now but i want to let you know that i have shed the same amount of hairs in the sink last month with seasonal shedding, about 30 hairs left in the sink , other 60+ while washing (and other 10-20 little hairs after the blow drier), i'm right now using only nizoral and i'm not allergic so only aga and season cycle, that's not a massive level of shed especially if you didn't wash your hair the same day, there is hope, if your leg doesn't have any reaction i'm pretty confident you can try monday again, but it's up to you

good luck

----------


## StayThick

> You can make an album on imgur, just drag the pics, as easy as that


 Thanks Keki. You rock. Attached is the bathroom sink with the remains of the hair that shed that did not go down the drain. As I mentioned in my response prior. This picture was taken after a good amount hair was sticking to my hands (from gel), my pillow, and then AFTER I washed my scalp and had it drain. The hair you see is what stuck to the side walls. This is was sent me in a slight panic.

Thanks Keki and thanks for saying my girl is a 10/10. Goes to show you that a full head of thick hair isn't required to land a smoke-show. My brother though, pisses me off he can pull a David Beckham and someone from the same gene pool can't...but I digress..I'm still better looking than him  :Big Grin: 

[IMG][/IMG]

----------


## StayThick

> Well i will go to bed now but i want to let you know that i have shed the same amount of hairs in the sink last month with seasonal shedding, about 30 hairs left in the sink , other 60+ while washing (and other 10-20 little hairs after the blow drier), i'm right now using only nizoral and i'm not allergic so only aga and season cycle, that's not a massive level of shed especially if you didn't wash your hair the same day, there is hope, if your leg doesn't have any reaction i'm pretty confident you can try monday again, but it's up to you
> 
> good luck


 No reaction to leg. None. I think I will continue, but that doesn't change what occurred. Had a massive shed. Thanks Keki, much appreciate your responses.

----------


## Swooping

StayThick you mentioned you were off minoxidil and finasteride. How long is that ago? 

Assuming minoxidil worked for you, you are going to get hefty sheds trust me. It only a matter of time.

You are btw courageous for stopping minoxidil & finasteride. Trust me that follicept will NEVER approach a treatment like minoxidil in terms of effectiveness.

----------


## serenemoon

> No reaction to leg. None. I think I will continue, but that doesn't change what occurred. Had a massive shed. Thanks Keki, much appreciate your responses.


  ..
If I may suggest a second day of leg reaction on Sunday. Just because you didn't have the reaction the first day and better to make sure it is safe for you...What do you think?

----------


## stayhopeful

yo let's see some more pics of this 10/10 you guys are talking about 

haha

----------


## SOTF

That's cause for concern? I've shed 3x that when I was first experiencing hair loss. I could sit there and pluck a hundred hairs out in a given area.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

I'm with bigentires. It's kind of weird that you are the only person that shed like this out of 7 or 8 people...

That said, you seem genuine.

I'd suggest not live posting your experience like a twitter feed. I'm sure that follicept doesn't really appreciate it. You've pretty much axed anybody else's chances of pre-trailing by showing them it's a massive risk (when it shoudln't be)

Not saying you shouldn't tell us, but maybe should have attempted to figure out between you and follicept first.

----------


## JayM

Stay hopeful, the guy or the girl  :Wink:

----------


## Hemo

Can we see before and after pics?  A sink with hair in it doesn't tell us that much.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

This is a bit alarming, but I hope this is just temporary and that follicept eventually find out what just happened to you.

----------


## nameless

> this is not possible in 2 days come on...
> 
> it's interestign because
> 
> 1) Reaction on the second application and not the first one, while if it was an allergy it should have started a soon as he applied it
> 2) shed only in area with good density
> 3) itch but not inflammed skin
> 
> 
> dunno dude, if i were in you i would try a last HALF dose tomorrow and see what happen (maybe wash before and after), if you are concerned about an allergy then drop the treatment


 
I think that if it was something negative/harmful there would probably be redness and/or swelling and/or bumps, and perhaps some irritation/pain. It sounds like there's none of this. I think that there is a very real possibility that the weaker hairs are falling out because new hairs are cycling...possibly as a result of the treatment. You might be getting positive results. 

I think that if this were an allergic reaction of some sort it would have happened with the first application. 

I'm not certain what to make of this but your experience makes me feel like this treatment might actually be working. 

In my view, it seems like *if* the Follicept treatment is working the hair shed might happen sooner than sheds happen with RU or minoxidil (or any of the other treatments we have used) because IGF-1 should affect hair growth/loss further down the hair-growth/loss pathway. Theoretically, Follicept hopefully doesn't have to go through the entire length of the pathway to work. IGF-1 probably mediates hair growth near the end of the entire pathway.

I actually think that what you're experiencing might be a good sign.

----------


## sdsurfin

stay thick dude just stay with it.  a shed doesn't mean you're gonna lose all your hair. I would honestly see this as a very good sign, as IGF-1 is said to restart the hair cycle. this might mean that its more effective for you than anyone else.  In my experience the only time I shed and itch is when I start using something like minox or fin and growth happens.  Id say theres probably zero chance that you're gonna end up worse off than when you started, the other guys in the trial are at 4 weeks, and honestly i don't see any improvement, but i really doubt you can do much harm.  Shed seems like more of a good thing to me than a bad thing.  my gf sheds that much hair all the time into the sink and has more hair than anyone I know.

----------


## bananana

Jeez, 10 hairs in the sink and the whole internet goes berserk?
I experience that any time I wash my hair.

----------


## diffuseloser

It doesn't really look like that much hair to me. I'm used to having at least this amount shed every day. How much of the hair in proportion to the hair on the sides of the sink went down the drain? I can't advise you one way or the other what way to proceed. It's your decision whether to carry on and you don't have to justify that to anyone. See how you feel Monday and hope you got over the initial panic of the shed. Thanks for taking it upon yourself to do this for the value of the forum.

----------


## Arashi

I've talked to Boldy, he says the shedding might be due to stress.

Some joker created an account on follicept's site under my name, that site has gone crazy  :Smile:  This account has nothing to do with my accout here, if anyone wondered ... Although I do agree what he said about Frenchnewbie  :Wink:

----------


## champpy

Satythick, did you continue to shed alot overnight?

----------


## Pelillos

StayThick being involved in the process and being free to publish his own photos and to tell his experience war the first good detail from the Follicept team for me, and with this issue I'm get interested. If this is not an alergic reaction but causes by the product itself, it means that a very little dose is doing something and the vehicle works, so maybe it could be proved with hundreds of other sustances in such little quantities as to being tagged as cosmetic and being released earlier. I mean, no the need of the 5 years.
Thanks StayThick!

----------


## StayThick

> stay thick dude just stay with it.  a shed doesn't mean you're gonna lose all your hair. I would honestly see this as a very good sign, as IGF-1 is said to restart the hair cycle. this might mean that its more effective for you than anyone else.  In my experience the only time I shed and itch is when I start using something like minox or fin and growth happens.  Id say theres probably zero chance that you're gonna end up worse off than when you started, the other guys in the trial are at 4 weeks, and honestly i don't see any improvement, but i really doubt you can do much harm.  Shed seems like more of a good thing to me than a bad thing.  my gf sheds that much hair all the time into the sink and has more hair than anyone I know.


 I don't know if it's a good or bad thing, but I agree I will continue. I'm planning on posting my baseline photos here after the long weekend so people can see where I'm at and the current state of my hair prior to treatment. 

I'm trying to save the remaining hair I have so when I saw an abnormal amount of hair all over my hands, pillow and sink I was concerned, especially because it followed a crazy itch.

Only time will tell, but I wanted to be transparent on my progress throughout on here. 

I'll keep everyone posted.

----------


## StayThick

> Satythick, did you continue to shed alot overnight?


 I did not. I just emailed Devon as he wanted daily updates and my hair has stabilized. Looked at pillow and rubbed a little vigorously over my scalp and nothing abnormal at all. So all is good. I'm applying the gel again Monday.

Also, sample test on a patch of hair on my leg as Kieko saw had no adverse effects. Zero. So very interesting...

----------


## StayThick

I


> Jeez, 10 hairs in the sink and the whole internet goes berserk?
> I experience that any time I wash my hair.


 The sink was at the very end of me washing out the product. I had tons of hair sprinkled all over pillow and desk area prior. 

Got up alarmed and emailed Devon. Was advised to wash it off immediately, I did and more and more hair was falling off and then going down the drain. My picture of my sink clearly did not reveal all of the above, but I've never had a shed like that EVER. With any treatment in the past. Never. So I didn't know what to think about the situation especially after vial #2. 

Also I'm not stressed. However, I became stressed yesterday when I saw a monsoon of hair coming out from my crown area. This wasn't an exaggeration or else I wouldn't have posted it. 

I'll keep you all in the loop. Rest assured.

----------


## Sogeking

> I did not. I just emailed Devon as he wanted daily updates and my hair has stabilized. Looked at pillow and rubbed a little vigorously over my scalp and nothing abnormal at all. So all is good. I'm applying the gel again Monday.
> 
> Also, sample test on a patch of hair on my leg as Kieko saw had no adverse effects. Zero. So very interesting...


 Yeah weird stuff. Didn't expect that one. Keep us posted.

You should also continue some more patch testing on some part of body for next few times you apply it.

----------


## joachim

> I've talked to Boldy, he says the shedding might be due to stress.
> 
> Some joker created an account on follicept's site under my name, that site has gone crazy  This account has nothing to do with my accout here, if anyone wondered ... Although I do agree what he said about Frenchnewbie


 lol yeah i saw that on the follicept site and immediately thought someone stole your identity  :Wink:

----------


## Illusion

ZOMG GUISE! R3AD DIS! 

_"Guys rumor has it that Arashi is related to a hair transplant clinic and only vouches for HT. Also, Swooping has a relationship with an AAPE company and he gets cuts.

These guys are professional con artists that launch systematic campaigns on forums to destroy competition.

First Arashi destroyed Dr. Gho's hair transplant practice . Now Swooping and Arashi are tag teaming to destroy Follicept and other competitors to promote their AAPE (snake oil)

Facts are clear!"_


SPREAD THE WORD!!

In all seriousness, was this guy above being sarcastic or are people seriously thinking this stupid sh*t? Since this quote is from the website of Follicept, it automatically makes me think it's meant in a serious way but then again I believe there are quite some people trolling over there so who knows.

----------


## burtandernie

Wouldnt shedding a huge amount of hair though be a good thing? It seems like a big shed means your hair is syncing up its hair cycles and that the treatment is doing something. If it all grows back the next cycle than how is that a bad thing? Although if you quit fin recently its always possible the shed is catch up loss for quitting that

----------


## champpy

I would be just as concerned as staythick abnomal shedding happend so quickly after adding a topical. Dont blame him at all for being cautious.
Personally i have tried EVERYTHING i can get my hands on to stop hairloss and shedding always occurs, but the regrowth NEVER happens for me. Ever. So I cant say that shedding is always a positive, cause theres no promise it will come back.
Theres not one of us here who who wouldnt be concerned with losing so much so fast.  Be careful staythick

----------


## champpy

Also i am wondering if something else might have accidentally mixed w the follicept solution on that one part of his scalp; hairspray, gel, minox...anything. 
When i was using indometacin i had the worst itch on the back of my head just in a 2" radius even though i was using it everywhere. It was very strange it only caused irritation on that one part of my head

----------


## petewete

Thanks staythick for doing this. I would freak out too if I was in your position but like a bunch of guys are saying this could be a good thing. Since you've decided to go ahead with it, just stay positive and let's hope for the best.

(Just a gut feeling but I honestly feel this is a good sign and it that it will work)

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Wouldnt shedding a huge amount of hair though be a good thing? It seems like a big shed means your hair is syncing up its hair cycles and that the treatment is doing something. If it all grows back the next cycle than how is that a bad thing? Although if you quit fin recently its always possible the shed is catch up loss for quitting that


 The weird thing is that none of the other trialist seem to mention shedding

----------


## nameless

> I
> 
> The sink was at the very end of me washing out the product. I had tons of hair sprinkled all over pillow and desk area prior. 
> 
> Got up alarmed and emailed Devon. Was advised to wash it off immediately, I did and more and more hair was falling off and then going down the drain. My picture of my sink clearly did not reveal all of the above, but I've never had a shed like that EVER. With any treatment in the past. Never. So I didn't know what to think about the situation especially after vial #2. 
> 
> Also I'm not stressed. However, I became stressed yesterday when I saw a monsoon of hair coming out from my crown area. This wasn't an exaggeration or else I wouldn't have posted it. 
> 
> I'll keep you all in the loop. Rest assured.


 
I understand that you got concerned when you saw what appeared to be a shed but I hope you didn't wash the treatment out because the shed may have been a good sign. If you washed the treatment out then that could mess up the results because you will be confusing your body. 

Keep in mind that the body does things to offset treatments. For example, when people take finasteride the body produces more androgen receptors to compensate for the loss of DHT. By producing more androgen receptors more Testosterone can bind and make up for the reduction of DHT. 

Well, similar things might be going on in your body with IGF-1. If you add IGF-1 (which Follicept may do) then your body might try to counteract that extra IGF-1 in some way so you have to keep using the treatment to stay ahead of the body's counteraction. If you stop using the treatment, or wash it out of your head right away, then you will be giving your body a chance to overcome the treatment. 

You need to stop panicking.

----------


## Hemo

Swooping is probably right.  Didn't see that you were on fin and minox, so it makes sense that you would start shedding after dropping those.

----------


## StayThick

> Swooping is probably right.  Didn't see that you were on fin and minox, so it makes sense that you would start shedding after dropping those.


 I dropped both those treatments way prior to even starting Follicept. Those played zero role in this situation. I'm currently just using Follicept per instructions from Devon and Dr. Hsu. 

My hair has been stabilized for quite some time before Follicept, just slowly getting thinner because I'm freaking balding.

----------


## StayThick

I


> I understand that you got concerned when you saw what appeared to be a shed but I hope you didn't wash the treatment out because the shed may have been a good sign. If you washed the treatment out then that could mess up the results because you will be confusing your body. 
> 
> Keep in mind that the body does things to offset treatments. For example, when people take finasteride the body produces more androgen receptors to compensate for the loss of DHT. By producing more androgen receptors more Testosterone can bind and make up for the reduction of DHT. 
> 
> Well, similar things might be going on in your body with IGF-1. If you add IGF-1 (which Follicept may do) then your body might try to counteract that extra IGF-1 in some way so you have to keep using the treatment to stay ahead of the body's counteraction. If you stop using the treatment, or wash it out of your head right away, then you will be giving your body a chance to overcome the treatment. 
> 
> You need to stop panicking.


 Very interesting theory and I hear you. I'll consider this on my treatment tomorrow. 

Again, my concern was simply because of how quickly it occurred. Not the first dose, but second, why? And why just a few hours removed from the 2nd dose did I feel such an itch and then followed by a shed. It's only that aspect of the situation that lead me to concern. The rate of which it all occurred. 

I'm good though. Let's see what tomorrow brings. Thanks for your feedback.

----------


## sdsurfin

IGF is not the same as minox, it makes perfect sense that you would shed very early in the treatment, IGF works to reset anagen in the follicle, and that's probably a sign that you are responding. The others probably shed too but they are all very bald so the hair they lost was probably thin and tiny. Devon probably shed too but he does all the time and prob didn't notice it. That's my hunch. Or your anxiety about this or the springtime might have brought it on, it happens to me. Who knows. Either way I doubt it's a bad thing. I'm sure whatever u lost will grow back.

----------


## StayThick

> IGF is not the same as minox, it makes perfect sense that you would shed very early in the treatment, IGF works to reset anagen in the follicle, and that's probably a sign that you are responding. The others probably shed too but they are all very bald so the hair they lost was probably thin and tiny. Devon probably shed too but he does all the time and prob didn't notice it. That's my hunch. Or your anxiety about this or the springtime might have brought it on, it happens to me. Who knows. Either way I doubt it's a bad thing. I'm sure whatever u lost will grow back.


 Understood. What is your opinion if my third treatment brings on a similar shed within hours of application again? I haven't shed anything remotely close from Friday since, so if this occurs again on my third application what is your opinion then? Continue? I just can't see how the formulation could cause my hair to instantly shed like this hours upon applying or how my follicles on the area could be resetting as you stated so quickly. Isn't that a process versus instantaneous? This is deemed safe by the Follicept team so I can't figure out other causes because I've ruled out other treatments, etc. because I haven't been on any.

I'm going to stop overthinking it and just move forward. Thanks for your insight because it has me thinking of possible scenarios for this.

----------


## sdsurfin

A sudden influx of IGF could definitely make you shed and reset anagen, that doesn't need to necessarily take a long time to happen. IGF has that very specific function and I'm sure the others has the same thing going on but they are more bald.  I would continue the treatment for the full cycle and if it doesn't help you in the first few months then give it up. You might shed again but that might just be related to the type of balding you have. Mine is not diffuse so I don't shed that much but you may just have a lot of follicles that are strained from balding and the IGF reset them all. It might well happen again but my hunch is that in the long run you're not doing any harm. I also have a hunch that follicept might be better for maintaining thinning  hairs than re growing very bald or vellus areas. There's too much damage done in those cases for anything other than cloning I think. Or some kind of wounding plus cellular therapy. Just my guess. Also Hair doesn't just disappear all of a sudden cause it sheds. Shedding happens when we change things up, and worst case scenario you'll be back where you started once it grows back. You're not gonna ale yourself balder. My best guess is that it's good news.

----------


## Arashi

> A sudden influx of IGF could definitely make you shed and reset anagen, that doesn't need to necessarily take a long time to happen. IGF has that very specific function and I'm sure the others has the same thing going on but they are more bald.  I would continue the treatment for the full cycle and if it doesn't help you in the first few months then give it up. You might shed again but that might just be related to the type of balding you have. Mine is not diffuse so I don't shed that much but you may just have a lot of follicles that are strained from balding and the IGF reset them all. It might well happen again but my hunch is that in the long run you're not doing any harm. I also have a hunch that follicept might be better for maintaining thinning  hairs than re growing very bald or vellus areas. There's too much damage done in those cases for anything other than cloning I think. Or some kind of wounding plus cellular therapy. Just my guess. Also Hair doesn't just disappear all of a sudden cause it sheds. Shedding happens when we change things up, and worst case scenario you'll be back where you started once it grows back. You're not gonna ale yourself balder. My best guess is that it's good news.


 So, week 4, no progress at all, some subjects seem even worse than before (see subject 2). With all your infinite knowledge and understanding, when do you expect the growth to start, Sdsurfin ?

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

I checked out subject 2 and I couldn't really see any difference. But wouldn't a short term worsening be a sign that it is working?

----------


## serenemoon

> So, week 4, no progress at all, some subjects seem even worse than before (see subject 2). With all your infinite knowledge and understanding, when do you expect the growth to start, Sdsurfin ?


 Shouldn't that at least reduce your doubts about scamming, that they are not flashing false early growth in their pictures? If you are complaining that there is no progress at 4 weeks, I definitely do not want to hear you yell "SCAM" if there is progress later on.

----------


## sdsurfin

Subject 2 actually Looks better to me, but it might be the light or the henna he used. See the comparison pic I posted on their site. Devon is in touch with me and he says he definitely sees growth in number 2 and 5. Subject 5 also has clearly a lot more vellus coverage on the photos. as he himself reports. The progress is certainly not monumental yet, and maybe never will be, but 4 weeks is pretty fast to get any results. 

My knowledge is limited, not infinite. but I'm not mentally ill enough to think these guys are a scam. Whether or not this will work is up in the air, I have my doubts about restoring areas that are very gone already.  At best I think it will be as good as minoxidil or propecia. At worst it just grows some vellus hair and that's it. 

Also stay thick, another poster on the follicept site mentioned that he works in a research lab and that your shedding sounds very normal and that it's probably just the thick hairs at the end of their cycle reacting to something in the gel. I wouldn't sweat it really.

----------


## hopeeman

go to follicept site and see..
before 10 min.
devon says that they gave up...
 :Frown: 
fake??
and still the balding ppl stay with sh*t

----------


## JayM

Are you serious hopeeman? Anyone from follicept posts as admin - follicept. 

Thanks for the laugh though dude, you did a good deed  :Smile:

----------


## hopeeman

someone who calls devon post on follicept update that dr.hsu give up.
i am not joking...

----------


## hopeeman

ohhhh now i understand
this devon is fake.
sorry.!!!

----------


## RU58841

It's fake, dude:



He used the name @folicept instead of @follicept.

Why is there so much controversy wherever this stuff goes? Why are there people doing stuff like this? Very strange.

----------


## serenemoon

> someone who calls devon post on follicept update that dr.hsu give up.
> i am not joking...


 It is fake. That guy has posted false statements before but it is not Devon, just someone pretending to be Devon. Ignore.

----------


## cuprous

> someone who calls devon post on follicept update that dr.hsu give up.
> i am not joking...


 I hate to feed the trolls but why are you bothering with this fraud?  What, Devon made a new account to give the "bad news"?  If you're paid for this, you're pathetic.  If you're not, you've got some similarly pathetic agenda.  Give it a rest.  Go away.

----------


## cuprous

> ohhhh now i understand
> this devon is fake.
> sorry.!!!


 Ok, just saw this, didn't mean to beat you up. Apologies.   :Smile:   Yes, beware of all BS out there.  

But I stand by my curiosity as to who/why bothers with this crap.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

Me too.

I understand that there are certain parties that are making lots of money on the current situation and do not want to see any new, improved treatments. I can't really see them sabotaging the potential competition with lame internet trolling, but you just never know...

Edit:
You know what. Just forget I said anything. Most likely some random idiot troll, not some deep conspiracy. I need to sleep.  :Smile:

----------


## sdsurfin

so it's definitely a fake comment? Doesn't sound like devon but hmm

----------


## jamesst11

I don't see any possible scenario in which Follicept would be testing their product, which they have no idea will work or not, and then just give up and publicize it immediately after the complete application.  It must be fake. That makes no sense. Even if they did decide to quit, they would have written a much better post than that brief crap.

----------


## champpy

I just remembered something in regards to staythicks claim that the igf may have caused some massive shedding.
Back in the old follicept thread, somewhere in the 187 pgs, someone pasted a quote from a past igf user that said something like "using this stuff is making my hair come out like crazy"
The person who pasted that quote was taking that to mean the hair was growing like crazy, but i literally think the OP meant he was losing hair like crazy. 
It just hit me tonight because if true, staythick is not the first person whos experience this massive shedding from igf.
 if someone wants to go through that old thread and find that quote be my guest. it's definitely in there somewhere.

----------


## thejack

They should cancel the forum and just update results which is still far more engagement than we have ever received. Some people are acting like monkeys and it has put me off even looking for updates as frequently as I normally would

----------


## DanWS

No results worth noting thus far. If this treatment works hopefully we'll see some early responders by the 2 month mark.

StayThick sorry to hear about the sudden shed, hopefully it's a good sign. Did you apply the treatment again yesterday and if so how did you respond?

----------


## Keki

If it doesn't give to human a single vellus in the next weeks means that every rats publications are a complete joke and should be banned, i will consider only trial to human and human only like setipriprant, sm and bim

----------


## hellouser

> If it doesn't give to human a single vellus in the next weeks means that every rats publications are a complete joke and should be banned, i will consider only trial to human and human only like setipriprant, sm and bim


 I've been saying this for years. Nobody cares though, everyones obsessed about rat/mouse studies.

----------


## Illusion

> If it doesn't give to human a single vellus in the next weeks means that every rats publications are a complete joke and should be banned


 Accurate reasoning

----------


## just2hairs

> I just remembered something in regards to staythicks claim that the igf may have caused some massive shedding.
> Back in the old follicept thread, somewhere in the 187 pgs, someone pasted a quote from a past igf user that said something like "using this stuff is making my hair come out like crazy"
> The person who pasted that quote was taking that to mean the hair was growing like crazy, but i literally think the OP meant he was losing hair like crazy. 
> It just hit me tonight because if true, staythick is not the first person whos experience this massive shedding from igf.
>  if someone wants to go through that old thread and find that quote be my guest. it's definitely in there somewhere.


 Yes, you're right, i read that as well.

----------


## nameless

> Yes, you're right, i read that as well.


 This means nothing. You have no idea what the other poster meant and a shed is most likely a good sign if there even was a shed.

----------


## nameless

> I've been saying this for years. Nobody cares though, everyones obsessed about rat/mouse studies.


 Did you know that the subjects will only use the Follicept for 4 weeks? I'm not saying they have to use it longer but it sure does not seem long enough. They say that the mouse study showed continued efficacy after after the treatment was discontinued but I don't think it's smart to think that the same thing will happen with humans.

----------


## champpy

I just don't believe a "shed" is always positive. I say this because I have given every treatment a try, I shed, nothing ever grows back. It just increases the rate of loss.  To say that someone is losing hair and its a good thing just cannot always be true. Hate to say it, but not everyone get the same regrowth that others may get.

----------


## sdsurfin

> If it doesn't give to human a single vellus in the next weeks means that every rats publications are a complete joke and should be banned, i will consider only trial to human and human only like setipriprant, sm and bim


 Subject 5 definitely has a lot more vellus at this point, and from what I can tell both devon and subject 2 have improved their hair cover at the edges of the bald areas. most people are reporting more vellus hair.  Whether it will go beyond this is still up in the air. they might try different dosages too.

----------


## Keki

> Subject 5 definitely has a lot more vellus at this point, and from what I can tell both devon and subject 2 have improved their hair cover at the edges of the bald areas. most people are reporting more vellus hair.  Whether it will go beyond this is still up in the air. they might try different dosages too.


 You can see the same amount of vellus on week 0, just different light and angle and camera focus, devon had a little longer hairs and some locks of hairs more straight on the scalp, we all know what is real regrowth, on july we will have an answer

honestly i don't understand at all why they didn't buy a simple crap 20$ usb camera, it's not trichoscan but much better then the pics we have now

----------


## Swooping

I have seen more hair growth from guys who were massaging their head with a boar bristle brush. But hey, still some time left!

----------


## sdsurfin

> You can see the same amount of vellus on week 0, just different light and angle and camera focus, devon had a little longer hairs and some locks of hairs more straight on the scalp, we all know what is real regrowth, on july we will have an answer
> 
> honestly i don't understand at all why they didn't buy a simple crap 20$ usb camera, it's not trichoscan but much better then the pics we have now


 The angle is different but it does not look the same to me. looks more vellus for sure, and devon says he can definitely see it in person. also devon and subject 2 have areas that definitely look more full.  

I think this has maybe a 20 percent chance of working at best, but we will see. I think one thing is for sure, mice grow hair way easier than people do.

----------


## Arashi

> Subject 5 definitely has a lot more vellus at this point


 That's just a different angle and different lighting. If you look at the 3rd photo for week 0, to the right part of the bald spot, you see the vellus hairs too if you look well.

 Really, these photo's are horribly amateurish. If you're not going to use trichoscanning (or even a $20 USB microscope would do) then the least thing you should try to do is get the angles and lighting the same. Angle + lighting make all the difference.

----------


## Arashi

> I think this has maybe a 20 percent chance of working at best


 Hehe, finally sdsurfin is landing on the ground. Although, 20% chance of working, make that 0.2%.

----------


## Hemo

> The angle is different but it does not look the same to me. looks more vellus for sure, and devon says he can definitely see it in person. also devon and subject 2 have areas that definitely look more full.  
> 
> I think this has maybe a 20 percent chance of working at best, but we will see. I think one thing is for sure, mice grow hair way easier than people do.


 LOL no one cares about what he can see in person.  If they're just going to say "we can see it in person" then there's no point in even posting results.  This is one of the shoddiest trials I've ever seen; if they wanted to prove effectiveness then they should have just left the forum, ran their BS trials and come back with results.  They're not building hype by posting inconsistent shots and telling us they see crap in person; instead, they're making people realize how poorly thought out and designed their research is (the fact that they have a subject in Alaska right now where they can't monitor anything or receive updates sort of confirms this).

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> The angle is different but it does not look the same to me. looks more vellus for sure, and devon says he can definitely see it in person. also devon and subject 2 have areas that definitely look more full.  
> 
> I think this has maybe a 20 percent chance of working at best, but we will see. I think one thing is for sure, mice grow hair way easier than people do.


 You start the post off with a very "hopeful" tone and then end it with saying their is a 20% chance it works lol

----------


## nameless

> Subject 5 definitely has a lot more vellus at this point, and from what I can tell both devon and subject 2 have improved their hair cover at the edges of the bald areas. most people are reporting more vellus hair.  Whether it will go beyond this is still up in the air. they might try different dosages too.


 sdsurfin, Devon and co have the idea that since the mouse kept growing new hair even after they stopped giving treatment to the mouse that means the same thing should happen with humans but I think that idea is highly suspect. Mice and humans are not the same. Mice hair and human hair are not the same.  A quick boost may be sufficient to make mouse hair grow and keep growing but that's not necessarily true for humans. 

Plus mouse hair growth may be synchronic so once one mouse hair starts growing they all start growing BUT human hair is different. In humans, different hairs start growing at different points in time. Now let's say that IGF-1 does stimulate hair growth...but each follicle has to be exposed to the IGF-1 when it's time for each specific follicle. If this is the case then you have to keep applying the IGF-1 because maybe it's too early for some follicles to receive the IGF-1 so they can't use it to grow hair yet.  You have to keep applying the IGF-1 because different follicles become "ready" to receive the IGF-1 after other follicles become "ready". 

Do you understand?

----------


## StayThick

P


> No results worth noting thus far. If this treatment works hopefully we'll see some early responders by the 2 month mark.
> 
> StayThick sorry to hear about the sudden shed, hopefully it's a good sign. Did you apply the treatment again yesterday and if so how did you respond?


 I did apply treatment last night and nothing out of the ordinary occurred. I certainly did not shed hairs at the rate I did the treatment prior nor did I experience the itch. Granted, I still did lose hair, but mostly due to the stickiness of the gel and it catching hair I presume were already dying. But again, nothing like the hair that was coming down a few days prior. 

To be honest, if this does make it to market and people use it in areas where there is actually hair, then be prepared for it to look like utter sh*t. This is a PM application only IMHO. I hate using gel anyway, but I can assure you this won't do any favors in the appearance of thickness. 

I'm not expecting much from this in all honesty at this point and from what I've been seeing on the other subjects, but it is still early, especially for me. Also, as long as it doesn't make my hair worse I'll be continuing until my last 12th dose. Trial and error I guess, but I do appreciate how open Devon and Dr. Hsu have been throughout the short period of my trial. They have a theory and are trying to run with it right now....time will tell if their theory has any real substance, but I respect what they are trying to do. 

Chat soon fellas'

----------


## Koga

Why is everyone being so negative and disrespectful? Does anyone still believe that follicept is a scam? If not, then why all this negativity? It sounds almost like you guys wish they fail. Weird. 

Personally, I wish this works, but I think the chances are slim. But one thing I do want for sure is that if it does fail, that they continue and try different doses, different drugs, and just keep trying. Does anyone not want that? Everyone cries about how no one cares about hairloss, how no companies are doing anything. But when someone does, and updates us on it, everyone just craps all over it. Like complaining about how "amateurish" their trial is. It's an unofficial trial for family and friends, and they said they want to see terminal hairs. How hard is that to understand? I for one don't want to wait for an official clinical trial for god knows how many years before we even know if it works or not. 

Sometimes I feel like some of us let this hairloss get to us too much. If you want to complain, complain about all the other companies and scientists that are doing nothing, or the people that are actively scamming people.

----------


## hellouser

> i have seen more hair growth from guys who were massaging their head with a boar bristle brush. But hey, still some time left!


 lol!!

----------


## efedrez

> P
> 
> I did apply treatment last night and nothing out of the ordinary occurred. I certainly did not shed hairs at the ra" j'ai la peau douce...!"te I did the treatment prior nor did I experience the itch. Granted, I still did lose hair, but mostly due to the stickiness of the gel and it catching hair I presume were already dying. But again, nothing like the hair that was coming down a few days prior. 
> 
> To be honest, if this does make it to market and people use it in areas where there is actually hair, then be prepared for it to look like utter sh*t. This is a PM application only IMHO. I hate using gel anyway, but I can assure you this won't do any favors in the appearance of thickness. 
> 
> I'm not expecting much from this in all honesty at this point and from what I've been seeing on the other subjects, but it is still early, especially for me. Also, as long as it doesn't make my hair worse I'll be continuing until my last 12th dose. Trial and error I guess, but I do appreciate how open Devon and Dr. Hsu have been throughout the short period of my trial. They have a theory and are trying to run with it right now....time will tell if their theory has any real substance, but I respect what they are trying to do. 
> 
> Chat soon fellas'


 Great to hear you are not experiencing further crazy shedding and decided to continue with the trial
Are you going to publish pictures? There has been some controversy with the ones taken by follicept so it would be nice if you could try to keep the same angle and lighting if you take some 
Be prepared for criticism no matter how well your pictures are taken but try not to pay too much attention to it. Most of us are grateful for having someone from the forum in the trail

----------


## Thinning@30

> Why is everyone being so negative and disrespectful? Does anyone still believe that follicept is a scam? If not, then why all this negativity? It sounds almost like you guys wish they fail. Weird.


 I've been skeptical of Follicept, but I would love to be wrong about them.  So far, they've done a number of things that make it difficult to take them seriously.  They made bold claims regarding effectiveness that so far haven't been born out by their informal trial. If they didn't start out with bold claims and just said they didn't know if it would work, but literature indicated it might and the mouse results were promising, I think most people here would have welcomed the openness and the chance to have a dialog with a company researching a hair loss treatment.  

Their current trial is informal, but they still don't seem to be going about it in a very methodical way.  It could be growing vellus hair or not, but how is anyone supposed to know? That combined with the hype makes it hard to believe they're just going to close up or go back to the drawing board if the informal trial doesn't show results.  Plus, their website already talks about a timeline for selling the product.

They're also actively trying to get people to vote for them for some type of startup award, when they haven't even demonstrated results yet.  It's like we're being used.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Where are the photos StayThick? Are you kidding us? No photo on week 0! It seems you just took your Follicept for free and post a photo of your sink as a "proof" of a shedding. Big joke. 

Please post your first photos as you promised. You were an opponent of Follicept first. Then Devon opened his door. Dr. Hsu does the same thing. You've publicly change your mind. And you are posting nothing. Hey man, you were speaking about a lot of photos... we have nothing. And we will wait what? We need the week 0 to date a possible progression by ourselves. You will not come on week 7 to say: "this photo was on week 0", no one will trust you. 

PS: And i add one thing. I think you took a product before Follicept. You don't say it. It's a shame. You live a shedding cause of this product (maybe Minox, or Fin). I personnally think you are a lier.

----------


## Hemo

> Where are the photos StayThick? Are you kidding us? No photo on week 0! It seems you just took your Follicept for free and post a photo of your sink as a "proof" of a shedding. Big joke. 
> 
> Please post your first photos as you promised. You were an opponent of Follicept first. Then Devon opened his door. Dr. Hsu does the same thing. You've publicly change your mind. And you are posting nothing. Hey man, you were speaking about a lot of photos... we have nothing. And we will wait what? We need the week 0 to date a possible progression by ourselves. You will not come on week 7 to say: "this photo was on week 0", no one will trust you. 
> 
> PS: And i add one thing. I think you took a product before Follicept. You don't say it. It's a shame. You live a shedding cause of this product (maybe Minox, or Fin). I personnally think you are a lier.


 As much of a joke as their trial is, FrenchNewbie's correct - you agreed to be a part of the trial but continue to avoid posting pics.  What's the issue?

----------


## bananana

> Why is everyone being so negative and disrespectful? Does anyone still believe that follicept is a scam? If not, then why all this negativity? It sounds almost like you guys wish they fail. Weird. 
> 
> Personally, I wish this works, but I think the chances are slim. But one thing I do want for sure is that if it does fail, that they continue and try different doses, different drugs, and just keep trying. Does anyone not want that? Everyone cries about how no one cares about hairloss, how no companies are doing anything. But when someone does, and updates us on it, everyone just craps all over it. Like complaining about how "amateurish" their trial is. It's an unofficial trial for family and friends, and they said they want to see terminal hairs. How hard is that to understand? I for one don't want to wait for an official clinical trial for god knows how many years before we even know if it works or not. 
> 
> Sometimes I feel like some of us let this hairloss get to us too much. If you want to complain, complain about all the other companies and scientists that are doing nothing, or the people that are actively scamming people.


 +2 (my dog barked)

----------


## champpy

The only thing I think Follicept can take any blame for is the overhyping of a product that was only being demonstrated on a rat.  My theory as two why the rat model is worthless is this. 
These rats were breed for the sole purposed of being hairless. These rats do not have MPB. The action by which we lose our hair, MPB, must be totally different than a species who was modified to be hairless.  There are so many different pathways and deficiencies that go into MPB that the hairless rat cannot ever represent. 

Why we are looking for cures  for MPB in rats is beyond me.  Its two totally different situations we have going on here. 
Rats should only be used to test the safety of a drug. That's it. If it  is tested and if found to be safe, then move on to real human test subjects and we will see the results or lack thereof with them.

Until the rat has 100% male pattern baldness (which I believe some primates do), then we should not test the product performance on rats anymore. All it does is get our hopes up until the human trial begins and we quickly realize that it never works on humans because humans and mice don't have the same condition

----------


## Keki

To be honest there are some study with human cultivated hair follicle, so it's not that all we have is some rats pics

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283847/
(i think this is the study where they took the 12 days mark)

I don't trust koreans anyway, do you remember the pumpkin seeds crap? There are even some video on youtube about that study, with patients that say bullshits over and over

----------


## Swooping

> To be honest there are some study with human cultivated hair follicle, so it's not that all we have is some rats pics
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283847/
> (i think this is the study where they took the 12 days mark)
> 
> I don't trust koreans anyway, do you remember the pumpkin seeds crap? There are even some video on youtube about that study, with patients that say bullshits over and over


 That organ culture model proves nothing in relation to androgenetic alopecia. You really never get it do you? 

Anyways, bravo for seeing that rodents are not a good model for androgenetic alopecia, also bravo for seeing that bias can be present in studies!

----------


## SOTF

Is there any area of medical research that has as many jokers and scam artists as the field of hair regeneration? I am amazed each time I browse these forums. It is truly a sad state of affairs.

----------


## serenemoon

> Where are the photos StayThick? Are you kidding us? No photo on week 0! It seems you just took your Follicept for free and post a photo of your sink as a "proof" of a shedding. Big joke. 
> 
> Please post your first photos as you promised. You were an opponent of Follicept first. Then Devon opened his door. Dr. Hsu does the same thing. You've publicly change your mind. And you are posting nothing. Hey man, you were speaking about a lot of photos... we have nothing. And we will wait what? We need the week 0 to date a possible progression by ourselves. You will not come on week 7 to say: "this photo was on week 0", no one will trust you. 
> 
> PS: And i add one thing. I think you took a product before Follicept. You don't say it. It's a shame. You live a shedding cause of this product (maybe Minox, or Fin). I personnally think you are a lier.


 It is not fair to accuse him of lying about using minox/fin recently. If that is his reaction, then that is his truth. He stated before that he has not used a product in a long time, so let us respect him and respect his journey with Follicept, instead of accusing him of lies. It is as bad as accusing Follicept of lying/scamming. People will react to Follicept differently, so we have to be mature enough to accept that, instead of insulting/accusing them.

----------


## diffuseloser

Agreed. We should be grateful to have StayThick in the loop. Hope Follicept continue to investigate this is IGF1 fails. If it fails, it's another lesson learned and we should take the positive from it.

----------


## StayThick

> Agreed. We should be grateful to have StayThick in the loop. Hope Follicept continue to investigate this is IGF1 fails. If it fails, it's another lesson learned and we should take the positive from it.


 Thanks Diffuse. I am actually working on posting my pictures now. I'll be creating a new thread shortly. Just returned from my long holiday weekend so finally have the time.

I also don't pay attention to FrenchNewbie. To me, he is clearly unstable just based on his Follicept forum tirades he goes on with everyone on there. He can accuse me of really anything as I do not care since I personally met Devon and Dr. Hsu, had long dialogues with each and they know I am not taking any treatments. His comments I pay zero attention to. Zero.

Will be posting shortly. Thanks guys.

----------


## diffuseloser

You're welcome. Hope the shed didn't affect the enjoyment of your weekend!

Well that is the correct way to deal with it. Don't pay attention to it. The majority of us are thankful for what you are doing. There are some wild accusations being thrown around so just try not to listen to them and focus on what matters.

Looking forward to seeing the pictures. Thanks again StayThick.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

I think the informal trial they are running now seems fine. They are hoping to get some cosmetically significant results that will be clearly visible even with different angles and different light. If all we get from this is vellus hair, it's not going to do anyone any good.

----------


## Arashi

> If it fails, it's another lesson learned and we should take the positive from it.


 Sorry but you guys just never learn. You'll all just jump on the next hype which surely will appear this year, maybe even 2 more of them if we're 'lucky'. You'll all hype it again like it's finally the cure we've all been waiting for. And while it now appears that Follicept will just fail without having taken people's money or damaged their health, the next one might. Hairloss forum history repeating itself over and over again for the next 10-20 (?) years until we have a real cure.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Sorry but you guys just never learn. You'll all just jump on the next hype which surely will appear this year, maybe even 2 more of them if we're 'lucky'. You'll all hype it again like it's finally the cure we've all been waiting for. And while it now appears that Follicept will just fail without having taken people's money or damaged their health, the next one might. Hairloss forum history repeating itself over and over again for the next 10-20 (?) years until we have a real cure.


 Really trying to lay on the spin huh?  There's nothing wrong with getting excited about a treatment or throwing support behind individuals who are clearly there to carry out legit science and help people. Fact is YOU were wrong with your OCD rants about follicept being a scam. YOU and your kind ran decent scientists off of this forum, as you probably will in the future, and except for people like myself who can discuss and confer with more knowledgeable people in a civilized manner, you will probably continue keeping the majority of young hair loss sufferers in the dark with your unbridled mental illness.

We still don't know if it works or not. I certainly have my doubts, as I always have, and I still maintain that it's a solid theory and that there definitely has to be something of potential when it comes to using/promoting the proper growth factors, and especially IGF-1.  It's a shame it hasn't shown more results yet, but my guess is that it will have some results but not the ones we hope for.  If they are not too discouraged by the insanity of the balding online community, hopefully follicept and scientists like them will continue to chip at the problem, so that sooner or later one of the "hyped" treatments is actually worthwhile. I was more hopeful about follicept before the trial started, but hey, that's the way these things work, you have to try.

In other news I heard from replicel and they said that part of the reason they have been delayed is that they were able to improve their product in some ways, and are now submitting it to the german regulatory bodies for trial commencement.

----------


## Hemo

They'd have more success trying to deliver approved drugs (or other growth factors that don't need approval, like AAPE) in low doses using their vehicle (eg dutasteride, as Dr. Hsu asked about it).  Funding that would obviously be an issue.

They sort of shot themselves in the foot with this "friends and family" trial considering 3 of the 7 participants are beyond help.

----------


## Arashi

> . Fact is YOU were wrong with your OCD rants about follicept being a scam


 Interestingly Arashi used that word exactly 0 times in this thread (search it). The only one who's wrong is going to be you, with all your hyping and neglecting the research that has been presented to you. Follicept came here with the slogan "Safe, effective, affordable" ! How is that not a scam ? Maybe not in the literal sense, that they robbed people's money but they sure did deceive people !! Got people's hope up, which are now cruely being destroyed by the lack of results. 

If Follicept would have taken a step back and just would have said "Look we dont know if this works or not, but we're going to run some small inhouse trial to find out", or even better, just run the trial before even coming here, then I'm sure nobody would have even used the scam word at all.

----------


## bigentries

> Really trying to lay on the spin huh?  There's nothing wrong with getting excited about a treatment or throwing support behind individuals who are clearly there to carry out legit science and help people. Fact is YOU were wrong with your OCD rants about follicept being a scam. YOU and your kind ran decent scientists off of this forum, as you probably will in the future, and except for people like myself who can discuss and confer with more knowledgeable people in a civilized manner, you will probably continue keeping the majority of young hair loss sufferers in the dark with your unbridled mental illness.
> 
> We still don't know if it works or not. I certainly have my doubts, as I always have, and I still maintain that it's a solid theory and that there definitely has to be something of potential when it comes to using/promoting the proper growth factors, and especially IGF-1.  It's a shame it hasn't shown more results yet, but my guess is that it will have some results but not the ones we hope for.  If they are not too discouraged by the insanity of the balding online community, hopefully follicept and scientists like them will continue to chip at the problem, so that sooner or later one of the "hyped" treatments is actually worthwhile. I was more hopeful about follicept before the trial started, but hey, that's the way these things work, you have to try.
> 
> In other news I heard from replicel and they said that part of the reason they have been delayed is that they were able to improve their product in some ways, and are now submitting it to the german regulatory bodies for trial commencement.


 Says the guy with an NDA with the company

People like you are poisonous to hair loss communities.

A potential cure doesn't need "hype", doesn't need supporters. We don't owe them anything, we are eager to spend a good amount of money in a cure. They owe us results, and if they give us "results" we have every right to question the legitimacy, we are putting money on the line. If they are not OK with that, then they can keep their mouth shut and come back when they have undisputed evidence of cosmetic improvements

"Good vibes", "optimism" don't change anything, besided making you an easy target. Things work or they don't, that's how science works.

----------


## Swooping

> Really trying to lay on the spin huh?  There's nothing wrong with getting excited about a treatment or throwing support behind individuals who are clearly there to carry out legit science and help people. Fact is YOU were wrong with your OCD rants about follicept being a scam. YOU and your kind ran decent scientists off of this forum, as you probably will in the future, and except for people like myself who can discuss and confer with more knowledgeable people in a civilized manner, you will probably continue keeping the majority of young hair loss sufferers in the dark with your unbridled mental illness.
> 
> We still don't know if it works or not. I certainly have my doubts, as I always have, and I still maintain that it's a solid theory and that there definitely has to be something of potential when it comes to using/promoting the proper growth factors, and especially IGF-1.  It's a shame it hasn't shown more results yet, but my guess is that it will have some results but not the ones we hope for.  If they are not too discouraged by the insanity of the balding online community, hopefully follicept and scientists like them will continue to chip at the problem, so that sooner or later one of the "hyped" treatments is actually worthwhile. I was more hopeful about follicept before the trial started, but hey, that's the way these things work, you have to try.
> 
> In other news I heard from replicel and they said that part of the reason they have been delayed is that they were able to improve their product in some ways, and are now submitting it to the german regulatory bodies for trial commencement.


 Don't be so silly sdsurfin. There has never been "legit" science in this one. There stands only a very weak hypothesis based on irrational thinking. There isn't even a "theory" about IGF-1 in relation to the pathology of androgenetic alopecia, far from it. Hence, there isn't even a convincing one to hair follicle biology itself particularly in humans. So what are you talking about again? 

Arashi is a good guy, he is a well grounded skeptic and we need people like that. He is valuable to a community like this. You on the other hand can only hype treatments based on your "gut feeling". When you don't like something you just hop onto another dude. Are you going to tell me now how replicel will be the holy cure to us all?  What evidence to you have for that kiddo? Or will you slam the Ad Verecundiam to us again like you always do?

We have seen what this brought us *totally nothing*. Just like this will be the case with Follicept. Ultimately this will only lead to crushed dreams and emotional harm. Because there *are* people who are expecting Follicept to work. Heck some people go even that far that apparently Devon and Dr. Hsu must have "secretly" tried this already because of these claims. 

Btw if you call someone mental please hold a mirror to yourself. If anyone is mental you would probably be the only one.

----------


## Keki

So many white knights of wallet, i sure don't consider myself an "easy target" lol, i'm not a compulsive buyer neither, i enjoyed be informed from the very beginning and only some pyscho masochist would not enjoy the same with the others treatments like seti, bim, sm etc, no, you are the real poison of this community and humanity, people who would like to be ignorant about  a research istead of being "hurt" with accepting a failure, and no, the science doesn't work like that, every single cure to every disease has hundreads and hundreads of fail behind, if you don't like to be informed then log out, stop reading a forum about cutting edge and trial updates who most likely will fail and wait till your doctor will give you something alternative maybe in 4-5 years from now, for people like me that search everyday for some sort of trial updates the way prometheon delivered daily news is a dream, sure their product can fail and the trial could be better but i don't care, still a complete transparent behevior

----------


## 79BirdofPrey

Are there any moderators on this forum? Can the useless posts be deleted so we can have a streamlined case study illustrating the results from the people testing these products? If people aren't adding value to the thread, can they be blocked?

Thank you.

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## just2hairs

> ...we are putting money on the line....


 Uhhh how much money have you and Arashi given to Follicept?  Nothing right?  So how are they scamming you?

You can say they've failed or criticize their trial methods, but to accuse them of scamming they would need to be selling you something fake.  They have not sold anything, so you are wrong and have been wrong from the beginning.

Sorry, but you can't say "I told you so" in this case...move on please.

----------


## bigentries

> Uhhh how much money have you and Arashi given to Follicept?  Nothing right?  So how are they scamming you?
> 
> You can say they've failed or criticize their trial methods, but to accuse them of scamming they would need to be selling you something fake.  They have not sold anything, so you are wrong and have been wrong from the beginning.
> 
> Sorry, but you can't say "I told you so" in this case...move on please.


 Why does everyone claims a "scam" has to involve money? What about deception?

We've seen dozens of "gurus" with fake pictures who never advocated buying something from them. How do you classify those? Their main motivation always seems to be just fame

These guys make big claims, and are using the groupies they got to help them in incubator contests that are unrelated to the hair product

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## just2hairs

> ...we are eager to spend a good amount of money in a cure...we are putting money on the line...


 Dude those are your words.  You seem to be focused on them taking your money through a fraudulent act (scamming you).  They have not, so give it a rest until they actually do.

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## StayThick

The Follicept forum is turning into a jungle from what I can see...

Not sure what to make of what's transpiring over there. It's filled with a bunch of crazy people I feel. The progress pictures to date are a little concerning to me albeit it is early...so who knows. Let's see what the next few weeks provide. 

I want something so badly to work... It's tough fellas.

----------


## nameless

> Says the guy with an NDA with the company
> 
> People like you are poisonous to hair loss communities.
> 
> A potential cure doesn't need "hype", doesn't need supporters. We don't owe them anything, we are eager to spend a good amount of money in a cure. They owe us results, and if they give us "results" we have every right to question the legitimacy, we are putting money on the line. If they are not OK with that, then they can keep their mouth shut and come back when they have undisputed evidence of cosmetic improvements
> 
> "Good vibes", "optimism" don't change anything, besided making you an easy target. Things work or they don't, that's how science works.


 I don't have an NDA with the company and I also think it's totally inappropriate to be so rude to potential marketers and researchers. You can question their science without being rude and tasteless. I do not think that Follicept is going to work but that doesn't mean that I should treat the staff like animals. Where is it written that it's OK to stop all social graces just because someone's project didn't work? 

I think that you and Arishi are over-the-top in terms of rudeness. It's not necessary. You two talk to people like they're dogs. You two are loudmouths.

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## bigentries

> Dude those are your words.  You seem to be focused on them taking your money through a fraudulent act (scamming you).  They have not, so give it a rest until they actually do.


 I love that logic.

Again, many used that same logic "rest until they actually do" with two infamous cases that ended up scarring people (they were free too). Waiting until something bad happens to denounce it is stupid. If you really think that way, then you rest until it happens, I prefer to question things as soon as they don't make sense

Seriously, March 2015 date, you aren't new aren't you? I bet many of the new supporters are people with a horrible track record of supporting these kind of things and don't have the guts to admit the damage they've done in the past

Edit: By the way, don't dodge my question about your definition of a scam

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## Afghanwig

> I don't have an NDA with the company and I also think it's totally inappropriate to be so rude to potential marketers and researchers. You can question their science without being rude and tasteless. I do not think that Follicept is going to work but that doesn't mean that I should treat the staff like animals. Where is it written that it's OK to stop all social graces just because someone's project didn't work? 
> 
> I think that you and Arishi are over-the-top in terms of rudeness. It's not necessary. You two talk to people like they're dogs. You two are loudmouths.


 Of all people on hairloss sites I've seen, you have the biggest track record of consistently being wrong. Whatever new hype: you jump on it. And you're consistently wrong. You pushed and motivated people to go to Dr Nigam. You told them it was harmless and totally safe. Then Wesley's immune system started attacking himself, he got hospitalized, almost died and Boldy's and Tom's donor got killed. And YOU talk about being rude ???

Some people ...

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## bigentries

> Of all people on hairloss sites I've seen, you have the biggest track record of consistently being wrong. Whatever new hype: you jump on it. And you're consistently wrong. You pushed and motivated people to go to Dr Nigam. You told them it was harmless and totally safe. Then Wesley's immune system started attacking himself, he got hospitalized, almost died and Boldy's and Tom's donor got killed. And YOU talk about being rude ???
> 
> Some people ...


 Isn't he Ironman?

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## Arashi

> Isn't he Ironman?


 No, Ironman used to make fun of him. This is JarJarbinx from Hairsite or YourRoyalHairness from SAGA. Although I gotta admit, he was slightly less optimistic than usual on this one.

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## just2hairs

> I love that logic.
> 
> Again, many used that same logic "rest until they actually do" with two infamous cases that ended up scarring people (they were free too). Waiting until something bad happens to denounce it is stupid. If you really think that way, then you rest until it happens, I prefer to question things as soon as they don't make sense
> 
> Seriously, March 2015 date, you aren't new aren't you? I bet many of the new supporters are people with a horrible track record of supporting these kind of things and don't have the guts to admit the damage they've done in the past
> 
> Edit: By the way, don't dodge my question about your definition of a scam


 I've been following their results, where have they deceived you?  So far, none of the subjects have grown any hair?  If they are deceptive, wouldn't you expect a bird's nest by now?  Or at least doctored images?  

You're blinded by your false knight-hood and holier than thou mentality.

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## nameless

> Of all people on hairloss sites I've seen, you have the biggest track record of consistently being wrong. Whatever new hype: you jump on it. And you're consistently wrong. You pushed and motivated people to go to Dr Nigam. You told them it was harmless and totally safe. Then Wesley's immune system started attacking himself, he got hospitalized, almost died and Boldy's and Tom's donor got killed. And YOU talk about being rude ???
> 
> Some people ...


 I never said that Dr. Nigam's experiments were safe. They're experiments so of course safety isn't certain. I defy you to find one post where I said Dr. Nigam's cell-based therapies are definitely safe. And let me save you the trouble of searching - there is no such post. And my point why Dr. Nigam was a good potential source for treatment is because India will allow some treatments into the marketplace that other countries will not. It's just that simple - he could get things to us faster. 

The only other things I have steadfastly remained positive about are AAPE and Histogen. And to this very day these two treatments are still be investigated so I have not been proved wrong on either of them. 

The only other thing I remember supporting at all was Pilox but I only supported that product until I gathered sufficient evidence to determine that it does not work. 

So basically everything you're saying is incorrect.

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## nameless

Now Prometheon says they are going to delete posts about Follicept that are negative. If they delete the negative posts then only the positive posts will remain.

It looks like Arishi may have been right about Prometheon's intentions.

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## joachim

> Now Prometheon says they are going to delete posts about Follicept that are negative. If they delete the negative posts then only the positive posts will remain.
> 
> It looks like Arishi may have been right about Prometheon's intentions.


 you're only angry because devon told you to take your AAPE elsewhere. after that, you started to criticize him about deleting negative posts. of course he's deleting you're nonsense posts alongside with the others. i wondered how long he would tolerate all the nonsense happening on the forum. it was time to give some restrictions, nothing wrong with that alone.  thus, dry your tears and move on.

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## efedrez

Honestly BTT would have done the same, I have never seen a forum with so many insults, indecent vocabulary and useless information.
That's probably why we don't get better insight from hair researchers, we baldies go totally crazy when it come to discuss treatments

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## nameless

> you're only angry because devon told you to take your AAPE elsewhere. after that, you started to criticize him about deleting negative posts. of course he's deleting you're nonsense posts alongside with the others. i wondered how long he would tolerate all the nonsense happening on the forum. it was time to give some restrictions, nothing wrong with that alone.  thus, dry your tears and move on.


 1. I could care less if they put AAPE inside of their gel or not. I'm focusing more on Piloscopy and SM04554 now. Piloscopy and SM04554 always were WAY more hopeful than Follicept. 

2. My posts saying that Follicept is failing isn't nonsense anymore than the posts by posters are nonsense. You just don't want to hear the honest bad news so you rag on the people who give you the honest bad news. You're intolerant and you want the people posting honest bad opinions silenced so you support Prometheon's censorship. 

3. Actually the posts that are the most nonsensical are the posts that are positive about Follicept because Prometheon's own photographic evidence irrefutably shows that there is NO improvement in ANY of the subjects after almost 7 weeks. 

Hey everybody, below is a post that Prometheon itself posted two days ago at their blog. This Prometheon post proves that my claims are true. Joachim says that I'm making this allegation because Prometheon won't put AAPE in their gel but the post below proves that the reason I'm reporting this is ONLY because Promtheon raised the issue in their own post. If Prometheon hadn't posted their plans to censor posts indicating that Follicept is failing then of course I would not have made the allegation that they did say it. I told them at Prometheon that I moved on from the idea of putting AAPE into their gel about a week ago and I have. Lots of people think my idea of putting AAPE in the Prometheon is a good idea but I myself don't care anymore. I'm still paying attention to whether or not Follicept works but it's not looking good right now and I'm way more interested in SM04554 and Piloscopy now. 



Follicept Mod  2 days ago
Some updates:

1. I will be going through and deleting more comments. If you post the same stuff over and over about us failing, or you don't believe, or whatever, it will be deleted. We are tired of hearing it and other users are tired of reading it. If you have a specific, legitimate criticism or question we welcome it. But "see, they failed" won't cut it. I don't blame you for not believing, but don't post it. We know. We have heard it 1,000 times. We are sincerely open to any criticism or questions, but not the repetitive attacks.

----------


## nameless

> Honestly BTT would have done the same, I have never seen a forum with so many insults, indecent vocabulary and useless information.
> That's probably why we don't get better insight from hair researchers, we baldies go totally crazy when it come to discuss treatments


 Prometheon is not talking about just deleting insult posts are vulgar posts. Prometheon is also talking about deleting posts just because someone says it looks like Follicept is not working. Prometheon says they're tired of hearing that bad news and that the supporters of Follicept are also tired of hearing that bad news. LOL! Prometheon is coming right out and admitting that they're deleting posts that are negative because they don't want to hear bad news. By the way there are many posts over there that have positive views about Follicept but Prometheon did not threaten to delete those. So I guess they want to reduce or eliminate the negative views so they can have only positive views. It looks to me like they're getting pissy because they themselves are losing confidence in Follicept.

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## xicof1

> you're only angry because devon told you to take your AAPE elsewhere. after that, you started to criticize him about deleting negative posts. of course he's deleting you're nonsense posts alongside with the others. i wondered how long he would tolerate all the nonsense happening on the forum. it was time to give some restrictions, nothing wrong with that alone.  thus, dry your tears and move on.


  +1




> Honestly BTT would have done the same, I have never seen a forum with so many insults, indecent vocabulary and useless information.
> That's probably why we don't get better insight from hair researchers, we baldies go totally crazy when it come to discuss treatments


 +1

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## oppenheimer82

> I have seen more hair growth from guys who were massaging their head with a boar bristle brush. But hey, still some time left!


 lol

----------


## Hicks

I always thought btt should do a paid member section.   I come here for information not a soap opera.  

In the mean time I exercise the ignore button and avoid the cutting edge section. Some posters make a ton of sense but I have better things to do than read paragraphs of rambling or justifying why they are right. It's like the guy that tells you Ford's are junk.

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## bananana

> I always thought btt should do a paid member section.   I come here for information not a soap opera.  
> 
> In the mean time I exercise the ignore button and avoid the cutting edge section. Some posters make a ton of sense but I have better things to do than read paragraphs of rambling or justifying why they are right. It's like the guy that tells you Ford's are junk.


 +2
(the dog agrees too)

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## joachim

> 1. I could care less if they put AAPE inside of their gel or not. I'm focusing more on Piloscopy and SM04554 now. Piloscopy and SM04554 always were WAY more hopeful than Follicept. 
> 
> 2. My posts saying that Follicept is failing isn't nonsense anymore than the posts by posters are nonsense. You just don't want to hear the honest bad news so you rag on the people who give you the honest bad news. You're intolerant and you want the people posting honest bad opinions silenced so you support Prometheon's censorship. 
> 
> 3. Actually the posts that are the most nonsensical are the posts that are positive about Follicept because Prometheon's own photographic evidence irrefutably shows that there is NO improvement in ANY of the subjects after almost 7 weeks. 
> 
> Hey everybody, below is a post that Prometheon itself posted two days ago at their blog. This Prometheon post proves that my claims are true. Joachim says that I'm making this allegation because Prometheon won't put AAPE in their gel but the post below proves that the reason I'm reporting this is ONLY because Promtheon raised the issue in their own post. If Prometheon hadn't posted their plans to censor posts indicating that Follicept is failing then of course I would not have made the allegation that they did say it. I told them at Prometheon that I moved on from the idea of putting AAPE into their gel about a week ago and I have. Lots of people think my idea of putting AAPE in the Prometheon is a good idea but I myself don't care anymore. I'm still paying attention to whether or not Follicept works but it's not looking good right now and I'm way more interested in SM04554 and Piloscopy now. 
> 
> 
> ...


 aha, after a year of posting hundrets of posts about AAPE in almost every thread, after contacting doctors in countries and islands where the laws are more relaxed to in respect to AAPE/stem cells, after reading all those studies about AAPE, after trying so hard to convince others about AAPE including devon and dr. hsu, now all of a sudden you could "care less" about follicept putting AAPE and other growth factors into their gel. is it because dr. hsu confronted you with the fact that most supportive AAPE studies are done or financially backed by the korean companies itself, and that the whole AAPE stuff got a little bit fishy, in Dr. Hsu's view?

after all, who cares about the fact they are starting to clean up the forum and deleting all the negative nonsense posts? the burden for a working hairloss product is still on follicept. if they can't show results, there will be no product at all, and the deleted negative posts in the forum are meaningless anyway.
you raised your voice, you explained they are deleting the negative posts, you even quoted devon's statement from the forum. so far so good, you did a great job informing the world. relax now.

----------


## nameless

> aha, after a year of posting hundrets of posts about AAPE in almost every thread, after contacting doctors in countries and islands where the laws are more relaxed to in respect to AAPE/stem cells, after reading all those studies about AAPE, after trying so hard to convince others about AAPE including devon and dr. hsu, now all of a sudden you could "care less" about follicept putting AAPE and other growth factors into their gel. is it because dr. hsu confronted you with the fact that most supportive AAPE studies are done or financially backed by the korean companies itself, and that the whole AAPE stuff got a little bit fishy, in Dr. Hsu's view?
> 
> after all, who cares about the fact they are starting to clean up the forum and deleting all the negative nonsense posts? the burden for a working hairloss product is still on follicept. if they can't show results, there will be no product at all, and the deleted negative posts in the forum are meaningless anyway.
> you raised your voice, you explained they are deleting the negative posts, you even quoted devon's statement from the forum. so far so good, you did a great job informing the world. relax now.


 I don't care if Prometheon puts AAPE in their gel. I've moved on from that idea. Prometheon will either do it or they won't. I don't care. I CAN ALWAYS INJECT AAPE SO i DON'T NEED PROMETHEON TO PUT IT IN THEIR GEL. Yes it would be more convenient if Prometheon would put it in their gel but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I have another way (injection) to deliver the AAPE to my follicles. The preferred method of delivery would be a Prometheon type of vehicle but it's NOT THE ONLY method of delivery.

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## efedrez

Guys, 

As some of you might know Follicept is still conducting their "in house trial" and they are already at week 9.

Their pictures lack good quality so it's hard to say if they are making any progress at this point with their current dose but I wanted to share a before and after picture to get the opinion of those who have some experience with photography

----------


## JayM

I don't know why I'm noting this, but to note, the guy had dyed his hair in the first pic.

----------


## hellouser

> Guys, 
> 
> As some of you might know Follicept is still conducting their "in house trial" and they are already at week 9.
> 
> Their pictures lack good quality so it's hard to say if they are making any progress at this point with their current dose but I wanted to share a before and after picture to get the opinion of those who have some experience with photography


 Bald before and bald after.

Write off.

Also, why is the hair gray in the after picture?

----------


## Trouse5858

Wow! Those are some really encouraging photographs!! * weeps silently into shirt sleeve*

----------


## lacazette

Don't know if it's my eyes but I see a little improvment no?^^ maybe the constrat black hair white skin
Anyway , 9 weeks is too short to make conclusions

----------


## Afghanwig

LOL, different hair color, different skin color, different angle, different dryness and different lighting. And then we thought Dr Nigam was the unprofessional one here  :Smile: 

I'm a bit amazed people are still following this. When will you guys finally give up on this ? I think we're close to the 3 months mark now ? Do you guys want to wait 6 months ? Or a year ? Or 2 years ? Just wondering  :Smile: 

*EDIT* actually I just saw there's still 4 weeks to go to the 3 month mark

----------


## tiktok

> Don't know if it's my eyes but I see a little improvment no?^^ maybe the constrat black hair white skin
> Anyway , 9 weeks is too short to make conclusions


 Looks better to me!

----------


## efedrez

> Bald before and bald after.
> 
> Write off.
> 
> Also, why is the hair gray in the after picture?


 Sure he is still bald but the guy is a very high NW so I'm just wondering if there is real improvement or is just the picture.

Btw, he used to dye his hair prior to the trial but apparently the asked him to stop so that's why is grey now




> I'm a bit amazed people are still following this


 Agree, maybe it's just a waste of time, but since there is nothing else out there in the near future we have nothing to lose by simply looking at it

----------


## bananana

Looks like an improvement to me. But not a significant one. 
It's the wait game now.

----------


## nohawk

Quick-Chime: I was a super-responder to FIN, went from receding hairline and diffuse-middle to super-thick all over and full recovery of hairline without minox, just FIN... was 21 when I started. My point: even as a super-responder, it literally took me between 1.5 to 2 years to notice how good the hair was looking, and that's coming from someone who pays daily attention. Hell, even guys that get transplants don't see peach-fuzz until the 3 month, and that's when a healthy, working follicle is injected into the skin. Never mind using a lotion to "wake up" a dead and dried follicle which, on that old guy has probably been dead for 15-20 years. Even if this is working perfectly, it's all happening under the skin at this point.... the thought that you rub something on your head and thick, terminal, hairs sprout out of a bald scalp is a complete joke.

----------


## jamesst11

Exactly... what I don't fully grasp with this is the time frame.  Correct me if I am wrong, but in order for a potential terminal hair to start growing from a follicle, wouldn't the follicle have to "reset"?  By this I mean it would have to go into telogen, shed the existing vellous hair fiber and begin producing a new, stronger fiber once it's returned back to anagen.  Doesn't the telogen shedding phase take like 3-4 months?  Maybe I am missing something about the hair cycle, but it seems like immediate growth, like every one on the follicept thread is anxious for, is very unlikely.  This is why most treatments take 8-12 months to see results.

----------

