# Men's Hair Loss > Men's Hair Loss: Start Your Own Topic >  Mature hair lines

## burtandernie

Why is some hair loss called a "mature hairline" by some people who supposedly understand hair loss yet hair loss to a greater extent is then called MPB and changes to being considered a disease? If a mature hairline is just because most men commonly lose hair as they age then the same logic says farther norwood levels are also common and MPB is not really a problem at all then.
How do you pick and choose at random how much hair loss is normal verses when it changes over to a treatable disease I mean it really seems made up to me and smells like BS.

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## Ktownmatti

I couldn't agree more.  I keep hearing about the need for conservatism with hairline placement to ensure "age appropriateness".  I was at the barbers yesterday and saw an elderly man with a juvenile hairline - it was white and slightly thin, but It looked perfectly natural.

I get the need to manage donar hair for future hair loss, but if someone has ample donar hair for the future and wants a more youthful hairline, I say that's his choice.  

I'm not paying 10's of thousands of dollars just so I can look my age.  Just my $.02.

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## burtandernie

Bingo. Not every man gets this because plenty of guys dont such as elvis, reagan, list goes on and on. I think the standards of acceptable hair loss is just set way too low. Guys on transplant commercials look like they are still balding but the commercials say they have full head of hair? I am NW 1.5 and I have had a few comments about if I am going bald so even minor loss is noticeable and its not a mature hair line yet even. Anything more then NW 0 teenage hair line is hair that was lost if you had that to begin with. Lets just at least call hair loss what it is and not try to explain it away arbitrarily. Even the balding blog guy spouts this I mean did he just invent this what scientific reasoning is there for this magic hair line he draws up? I could draw a hair line farther back in a horseshoe pattern and just say NW 7 is extra matured hairline dont worry about that its normal

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## inspects

> even the balding blog guy spouts this i mean did he just invent this what scientific reasoning is there for this magic hair line he draws up? I could draw a hair line farther back in a horseshoe pattern and just say nw 7 is extra matured hairline don't worry about that its normal.


 lol............. :Big Grin:

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## Tracy C

> Why is some hair loss called a "mature hairline" by some people who supposedly understand hair loss yet hair loss to a greater extent is then called MPB...


 This has been asked and answered over and over and over again.  Men and women have different hair lines.  That is the way it is.  MPB is loss that is beyond that natural and normal adult mature male hair line.  This is not BS.  If you want BS, you are in the wrong forum - and you need to go to another forum.  This forum is about getting the truth out there.  You do not want the truth.  Therefore this forum is not for appropriate for you.

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## chrisdav

I do agree with Tracey.

Men of different ethnicities have different hairlines. 

Just because a guy does not have the straight line juvenile hairline does not mean he is losing his hair. However there are clinics out there who will tell you are and play off this.

As this is cosmetic surgery, there are guys who would would like this, but they need to be a candidate for such.

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## burtandernie

> I do agree with Tracey.
> 
> Men of different ethnicities have different hairlines. 
> 
> Just because a guy does not have the straight line juvenile hairline does not mean he is losing his hair. However there are clinics out there who will tell you are and play off this.
> 
> As this is cosmetic surgery, there are guys who would would like this, but they need to be a candidate for such.


 What about me calling MPB an extra matured hairline and since MPB is common for most men (80&#37; at some point in life) its not a disease or problem at all? 
I feel your saying a man getting a mature hairline does not have hair loss but really its the same underlying condition whether its common or not among most men is irrelevant because not every man gets it. If every single man on earth had it then I would agree with you

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## chrisdav

This link may help but it will probably be removed.

http://www.baldingblog.com/2006/10/0...d-with-photos/

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## burtandernie

I understand what it is I just am saying any hair loss past a juvenile hairline should be considered MPB. I dont agree with the distinction that some hair loss up until the mature hairline is okay and after that its MPB like he says

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## chrisdav

I understand what you mean  :Smile:

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## burtandernie

I bet you some doctors dont think there is a mature hairline and then some do just showing how inaccurate terms like this are with little real science as to how far a hairline needs to move back before its MPB
Oh well I guess that is the state of hair loss right now we are not living in a star wars movie where we regrow arms.

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## Breaking Bald

> I bet you some doctors dont think there is a mature hairline and then some do just showing how inaccurate terms like this are with little real science as to how far a hairline needs to move back before its MPB
> Oh well I guess that is the state of hair loss right now we are not living in a star wars movie where we regrow arms.


 It wasn't regrown, it was a robotic arm Luke had  :Wink:

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## burtandernie

Doh your right I need to watch the star wars movies again.

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## Tracy C

> What about me calling MPB an extra matured hairline...


 That would not be the truth.  Now calm down and go to some other forum where you belong.  You can not stay here.  If you stay here someone will tell you the truth.

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## Tracy C

> I bet you some doctors dont think there is a mature hairline...


 You will be very hard pressed to find an ethical doctor who will deny it.

Now really, go to some other forum.  This is not the place for you.

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## burtandernie

Let me ask this then. How many centimeters is a mature hairline before it then changes to MPB status? Also who or how was this measurement defined?
If I took this measurement in centimeters to any hair transplant doctor would he agree with that measurement then that its just mature hairline verses MPB? If they dont then it seems no one really agrees what a mature hairline is.
I have never seen any formal scale or chart universally defining the mature hairline. The norwood scale starts at 2 but again why does it start there if a guy lost hair to get to that point it doesnt happen to women.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Let me ask this then. How many centimeters is a mature hairline before it then changes to MPB status? Also who or how was this measurement defined?
> If I took this measurement in centimeters to any hair transplant doctor would he agree with that measurement then that its just mature hairline verses MPB? If they dont then it seems no one really agrees what a mature hairline is.
> I have never seen any formal scale or chart universally defining the mature hairline. The norwood scale starts at 2 but again why does it start there if a guy lost hair to get to that point it doesnt happen to women.


 You are balding, everyone's hairline matures before they are visibly balding.

The good news is, this process can take decades and there are new treatments around the corner.

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## sp8rky

A NW7 is normal for people losing their hair, and MPB isn't a disease.

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## re22

> Let me ask this then. How many centimeters is a mature hairline before it then changes to MPB status? Also who or how was this measurement defined?
> If I took this measurement in centimeters to any hair transplant doctor would he agree with that measurement then that its just mature hairline verses MPB? If they dont then it seems no one really agrees what a mature hairline is.
> I have never seen any formal scale or chart universally defining the mature hairline. The norwood scale starts at 2 but again why does it start there if a guy lost hair to get to that point it doesnt happen to women.


 Not true. Many women have what could be considered a Norwood 2 hairline.

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## BigThinker

> Why is some hair loss called a "mature hairline" by some people who supposedly understand hair loss yet hair loss to a greater extent is then called MPB and changes to being considered a disease? If a mature hairline is just because most men commonly lose hair as they age then the same logic says farther norwood levels are also common and MPB is not really a problem at all then.
> How do you pick and choose at random how much hair loss is normal verses when it changes over to a treatable disease I mean it really seems made up to me and smells like BS.


 

Why are you going on and on about the idea of a "mature hairline"?  Whether you like it or not, the general population acknowledges this concept, even without strict quantitative guidelines/thresholds.

Sure, it is a form of balding and typically is a predecessor to continued balding.  However, many men do develop "mature hairlines" and retain one for many, many years afterwards.

I'm glad you at least started a thread to unload your non-constructive babel, as opposed to interjecting yourself into every other thread.

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## Tracy C

> Let me ask this then. How many centimeters is a mature hairline before it then changes to MPB status?


 Type "V" MPB is best indicated by thinning in the vertex and mid-anterior areas as well as possible excessive temple hair loss that is beyond the natural and normal adult mature male hair line for your race..  Type "A" MPB is indicated by marked recession of the forelock.  You need to stop thinking of temple hair recession as a sole indication of MPB.  Hairline recession alone does not indicate MPB at all.






> I have never seen any formal scale or chart universally defining the mature hairline.


 There is no universal "one size fits all" mature male hair line.  It varies by race.  Caucaion males tend to have deeper temple hair recession than other races.

Go to HairDirect.com and spend the $50.00 for the male fitting kit.  In that kit they include temples of the most common mature male hair lines by race.  Now try to put your thinking cap on and think about this.  If the natural and normal adult mature male hair line does not exist, why then does Hair Direct include templates of it in their fitting kit?  The reason they include these templates in their fitting kit is because it does exist.  It is real.  It is normal - and by itself it is not an indication of MPB.

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## Tracy C

> A NW7 is normal for people losing their hair, and MPB isn't a disease.


 Not every man with MPB progresses all the way to Norwood 7.  That second part is true though.  MPB is not a disease.  It totally stinks, especially for guys who are unable to cope with it, but MPB is both natural and normal.

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## sp8rky

> Not every man with MPB progresses all the way to Norwood 7.  That second part is true though.  MPB is not a disease.  It totally stinks, especially for guys who are unable to cope with it, but MPB is both natural and normal.


 That wasn't my point, my point is that a NW7 is natural, should a man bald to this stage.

I don't see NW7 men in the street and think, he doesn't look normal, infact it wouldn't even register to me that the man was bald at all.

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## greatjob!

> Why are you going on and on about the idea of a "mature hairline"?


 Because he is trying to justify his obsession with hairloss even though he is a NW 1/2, it is ruining his life...

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## burtandernie

The issue is your arbitrarily picking some random spot say 2 cm and saying that first 2 cm is not MPB even though its hair loss caused by the normal MPB process. Then once its past 2cm your calling it the start of MPB when really its all the same process happening.
Small amounts of hair loss even NW 1 -> NW 2 changes your appearance whether that bothers someone or being NW 7 bothers them depends on the person. How can you make that choice for them.

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## mpb47

> What about me calling MPB an extra matured hairline and since MPB is common for most men (80% at some point in life) its not a disease or problem at all? 
> I feel your saying a man getting a mature hairline does not have hair loss but really its the same underlying condition whether its common or not among most men is irrelevant because not every man gets it. If every single man on earth had it then I would agree with you


 Well it's semantics but it's really not a disease at all. From way back in biology class to more recent medical literature, it is stated that all Caucasian males are encoded for mbp at birth and about 96% or so experience at least temple recession. 80-85+ percent go further than that. Notice I said Caucasian males, not males in general. We got the short end of the stick so to speak.

My biology teacher called it something like a delayed secondary sexual trait with mixed penetrance (or something like that). She said there would not be any stigma about balding if it happened to all males at the same time like puberty. 

With that said, knowing that I am basically supposed to go bald doesn't make me feel much better.  But at the same time, just knowing that it was going  to happen to me was enough motivation to get on propecia.

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## Tracy C

> Why is some hair loss called a "mature hairline" by some people who supposedly understand hair loss yet hair loss to a greater extent is then called MPB and changes to being considered a disease?


 The natural and normal adult mature male hair line is not MPB.  It is a typical male trait like a deeper voice, bigger hands, bigger feet and so on.  It is more common for caucasian males than other races.

MPB is different from the natural and normal adult male hairline and it is not a disease.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> The natural and normal adult mature male hair line is not MPB.  It is a typical male trait like a deeper voice, bigger hands, bigger feet and so on.  It is more common for caucasian males than other races.
> 
> MPB is different from the natural and normal adult male hairline and it is not a disease.


 yet not every man develops it, yet *every* man's voice breaks.

mature hairlines *is* MPB (A milder form)

I know so many guys in their 30s with a perfect set of hair.

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## burtandernie

> yet not every man develops it, yet *every* man's voice breaks.
> 
> mature hairlines *is* MPB (A milder form)
> 
> I know so many guys in their 30s with a perfect set of hair.


 Yeah I agree. I also personally think a stronger AA maybe one that targets receptors can completely stop MPB much like castrated men. I think MPB really is all androgens we just dont have any such treatment to see the results yet. Its a huge part of MPB though in terms of stopping MPB maybe even under rated still because propecia falls short

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## mpb47

> yet not every man develops it, yet *every* man's voice breaks.
> 
> mature hairlines *is* MPB (A milder form)
> 
> I know so many guys in their 30s with a perfect set of hair.


 
96% is almost every (Caucasian) man.

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## BigThinker

Are people still arguing about this?  There's like 18 active threads on mature hairlines.

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## burtandernie

Yup, but to he honest lots of stuff continually comes back up if you went back and searched through old threads. Lets face it MPB does not have a whole lot of solid answers on almost anything so lots of opinions on all of it. I just gave up on the mature hairline argument. Let people think anything they want.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Are people still arguing about this?  There's like 18 active threads on mature hairlines.


 The way Tracy harps one about it, it can have the following effect:

1) A young person who is beginning to bald, may just think it is a mature hairline, only to later find out that it isn't. Afterall everyone who goes bald, has a "mature hairline" at one point?

That misinformation could cause them to not be proactive with treating their hairloss.

Anyone who is concerned about losing their hair, should look into seeing a good dermatologist. They do exist, you need to find them.

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## Notcoolanymore

> The way Tracy harps one about it, it can have the following effect:
> 
> 1) A young person who is beginning to bald, may just think it is a mature hairline, only to later find out that it isn't. Afterall everyone who goes bald, has a "mature hairline" at one point?
> 
> That misinformation could cause them to *not be proactive with treating their hairloss*.
> 
> Anyone who is concerned about losing their hair, should look into seeing a good dermatologist. They do exist, you need to find them.


 Yeah but the only way to be proactive with treating hairloss is to use something that give you persistent sexual sides 100% of the time.

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## mpb47

> The way Tracy harps one about it, it can have the following effect:
> 
> 1) A young person who is beginning to bald, may just think it is a mature hairline, only to later find out that it isn't. Afterall everyone who goes bald, has a "mature hairline" at one point?
> 
> That misinformation could cause them to not be proactive with treating their hairloss.
> 
> Anyone who is concerned about losing their hair, should look into seeing a good dermatologist. They do exist, you need to find them.


 The mature hairline is normally the first stage of mpb, I don't think anyone disagrees on that. It just that in a few cases it stops there and doesn't get worse. Tracy herself has said in the past that most men bald eventually.

Bottom line is if it continues, get on meds if you don't want to go bald.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> *The mature hairline is normally the first stage of mpb, I don't think anyone disagrees on that.* It just that in a few cases it stops there and doesn't get worse. Tracy herself has said in the past that most men bald eventually.
> 
> Bottom line is if it continues, get on meds if you don't want to go bald.


 *most* is not *all*. The way Tracy describes it as most men voice breaks it is just not true. There are actually some ethnicities for example who have a lower degree of MPB - Japanese people for example.

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## mpb47

> *most* is not *all*. The way Tracy describes it as most men voice breaks it is just not true. There are actually some ethnicities for example who have a lower degree of MPB - Japanese people for example.


 Yes technically you are right. I am not 100&#37; sure but pretty sure when she makes those statements that she really means Caucasian  males, not all males of all ethnicities. I have friends from China. They *seem* to have both less mpb and lesser amounts of facial hair. My guess is less DHT accounts for both observations, but it is only my guess.

I really think it's a matter of semantics and you are almost saying the same thing. That is:  Most Caucasian guys recede a little bit around puberty. And yes most, but not all eventually go into more advanced stages of mpb. 

You think she is trying to delay treatment. It will take some searching to find the thread, but I know sometime last year she told me something along the lines that most men can't escape mpb without treatment so I do not think she is trying to do that. Only that when a white guy hits puberty, he recedes and then it may stop for awhile. And for me it was true. I receded in my teens and then it stopped for aprox 15 years. I honestly thought I was safe until my grandma told me my uncle did the same thing and did not start going bald till his 30's-which is what happened to me as well.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Yes technically you are right. I am not 100&#37; sure but pretty sure when she makes those statements that she really means Caucasian  males, not all males of all ethnicities. I have friends from China. They *seem* to have both less mpb and lesser amounts of facial hair. My guess is less DHT accounts for both observations, but it is only my guess.
> 
> I really think it's a matter of semantics and you are almost saying the same thing. That is:  Most Caucasian guys recede a little bit around puberty. And yes most, but not all eventually go into more advanced stages of mpb. 
> 
> You think she is trying to delay treatment. It will take some searching to find the thread, but I know sometime last year she told me something along the lines that most men can't escape mpb without treatment so I do not think she is trying to do that. Only that when a white guy hits puberty, he recedes and then it may stop for awhile. And for me it was true. I receded in my teens and then it stopped for aprox 15 years. I honestly thought I was safe until my grandma told me my uncle did the same thing and did not start going bald till his 30's-which is what happened to me as well.


 Not everyone on here is cancausian.

It just bothers me how she compares this to puberty.

Only because your hairloss stopped for a while does not mean you did not have mpb.

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## greatjob!

> Not everyone on here is cancausian.
> 
> It just bothers me how she compares this to puberty.
> 
> Only because your hairloss stopped for a while does not mean you did not have mpb.


 It bothers me with how much you claim baldness effects your life when you have a perfect head of hair....

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## burtandernie

Maybe the real question is if your getting a mature hairline and dont want one does it even matter? I dont think there is anything you can do anyways I doubt propecia is gonna stop that and its silly to take a drug like that in hopes it prevents a small amount of MPB over the years.
With current options a mature hairline is common because no one can stop it from happening. Maybe if we had CB or some powerful AA, but not current treatments.

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## PatientlyWaiting

I think if you have the donor to do it, you should be able to pick a NW1 hairline, or ask for your 14 year old hair line back. How "weird" you look when you are 60 years old with a NW1 is not the surgeons problem, that is your problem (If you think a NW1 at 60 is a problem to begin with). I know they are the one's doing the work, but you are the one paying them, probably more than half your net salary for it so it all evens out. They do the work, you request exactly what you want, if you are a candidate for it.

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## PatientlyWaiting

> The mature hairline is normally the first stage of mpb, I don't think anyone disagrees on that. It just that in a few cases it stops there and doesn't get worse. Tracy herself has said in the past that most men bald eventually.
> 
> Bottom line is if it continues,


 If it continues, you are f-cked.

You need to get hair loss when it looks like a mature hair line. If you actually play the waiting game with MPB, you'll be a full blown NW3 and fighting an uphill battle in no time. You'll be scrambling to regrow, find out you can't, then have to be content with maintaining your NW3-4 with like 2-3 different medication on a daily basis, and pray to god you get a good amount of hair back with a surgical procedure. Which in most cases, one surgery is never enough.

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## burtandernie

Yeah I think a NW 0/1 looks the best at any age personally because you look like your never going bald verses a NW 2 guy that looks like he is already on his way to baldness whether it gets worse or not. Just my opinion I am done arguing about it because no one ever changes their mind.
I dont think a 60 year old with NW 1 is weird I would say he is exceptionally lucky and probably looks exceptionally young for his age. No downside I can think of.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Yeah I think a NW 0/1 looks the best at any age personally because you look like your never going bald verses* a NW 2 guy that looks like he is already on his way to baldness whether it gets worse or not. Just my opinion I am done arguing about it because no one ever changes their mind.*
> I dont think a 60 year old with NW 1 is weird I would say he is exceptionally lucky and probably looks exceptionally young for his age. No downside I can think of.


 When I grow my hair out, looks shit to be honest due to my hairline.

Days of long hair is over.

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