# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  piloxll:new israeli method combines wounding+ zi/cu ions to destroy dht in the scalp

## oppenheimer82

discuss this method in here. if results are really that good, this could be a game changer.

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## brunobald

Anyone thinking of a diy attempt?

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## Thinning87

It's bs don't get too excited folks. Cure won't come at any time before 20 years from now. If all goes well, we might get something better than fin within the next 5-8 years, but most of us here now won't be able to save their hair.

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## hellouser

> It's bs don't get too excited folks. Cure won't come at any time before 20 years from now. If all goes well, we might get something better than fin within the next 5-8 years, but most of us here now won't be able to save their hair.


 As negative as this comment is, one cannot possibly at least accept this as a very likely scenario. Nobody gives a rats piss about curing baldness.

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## chimera

> It's bs don't get too excited folks. Cure won't come at any time before 20 years from now. If all goes well, we might get something better than fin within the next 5-8 years, but most of us here now won't be able to save their hair.


 Yeah... and this could be that something which is not a cure but just something better than fin...

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## FearTheLoss

you guys are ridiculous...

CB- should be a lot better than fin, should be out in 2016 best case, more likely 2017-2018.

histogen- better than fin and minox, should be released in asia in 2015-2016

bim- better than minox, should be released in 2015 IN THE USA.

follica- has grown human hair on bald scalp via wounding, already been through phase I/II trails...adding FGF9 to see if they can get better results...could very well be out in 3 years IN THE USA....as a cure

PILOFOCUS- scarless hair transplant, should be available in the USA within 6-7 months...WITH DONOR REGENERATION....we just don't know how significant the regeneration is yet...although Artista said the regen pics were "breathtaking" 

PRP- some doctors, including Dr. Wesley are beginning to have more success with this as they toy with the dosage and amount of injections

Replicel- supposed to be releasing a product in asia in 2015, seems like it's going to be more towards 2016 though. Their results are still better than fin/minox...also they just got a huge investor after they showed their 12 month results to them...could be a sign that they got better results at 12 months

many doctors are getting some sort of regeneration..it's just a matter of getting it consistently...all we need is 50%+ regen to cure most nw5...and 7% to cure most nw6...85% to cure nw7

Not to mention, SMP...SMP is showing to be a great addition to add the visual effect of density...(look at joe's video in the SMP section)

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## rdawg

> It's bs don't get too excited folks. Cure won't come at any time before 20 years from now. If all goes well, we might get something better than fin within the next 5-8 years, but most of us here now won't be able to save their hair.


 So you're saying we'll be on mars before we get close to a cure for baldness?

I dont think the cure is CLOSE, but definitely within a decade away, just judging by all the progress in research right now.

not necessarily you but  Ifeel like some people expect a drug to release without problems within like a year or two and that was never feasible at least in north america. 

BIM is probably the closest thing we have to a release in NA.

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## FearTheLoss

Theoretically, most people could have the appearance of a full head of hair next year if they wanted to.....with a combination of SMP and Pilofocus, one could cut the sides to a 1-2 guard and move a good amount of hair to the top..and have hair...regardless of how good the regeneration ends up being

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## hellouser

Here's an interesting question!

If regeneration is supposed to happen with Pilofocus.. what does it matter if we get a traditional hair transplant NOW? We're only MOVING hair from one area to the other... its not being destroyed. 

Couldn't we just harvest transplanted hair with Pilofocus in the recipient area and re-implant in surrounding areas and regenerate donor hair at the top/front thats originally been at the back of the head??

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## FearTheLoss

> Here's an interesting question!
> 
> If regeneration is supposed to happen with Pilofocus.. what does it matter if we get a traditional hair transplant NOW? We're only MOVING hair from one area to the other... its not being destroyed. 
> 
> Couldn't we just harvest transplanted hair with Pilofocus in the recipient area and re-implant in surrounding areas and regenerate donor hair at the top/front thats originally been at the back of the head??


 Theoretically, yes we could. Granted you waited about 20+ months so the hair is as physically mature as it is going to get..That could, in fact, create an unlimited donor supply as you could just keep moving hair around and letting it regenerate..


That all being said, I'm done waiting guys. I schedule my first ever hair transplant with Dr. Rahal, to get my hairline fixed next month.

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## crafter

> Theoretically, most people could have the appearance of a full head of hair next year if they wanted to.....with a combination of SMP and Pilofocus, one could cut the sides to a 1-2 guard and move a good amount of hair to the top..and have hair...regardless of how good the regeneration ends up being


 you're overly optimistic.  Where did he say this? "although Artista said the regen pics were "breathtaking""?  i've seen the one pic from Dr Wesley and looks nothing amazing - about 5 hairs

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## hellouser

> That all being said, I'm done waiting guys. I schedule my first ever hair transplant with Dr. Rahal, to get my hairline fixed next month.


 Oh snap!

How many grafts and whats the $$$$ amount?

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## FearTheLoss

> you're overly optimistic.  Where did he say this? "although Artista said the regen pics were "breathtaking""?  i've seen the one pic from Dr Wesley and looks nothing amazing - about 5 hairs


 it's somewhere in one of the pilofocus threads where people were discussing the conference presentation in san fran..

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## FearTheLoss

> Oh snap!
> 
> How many grafts and whats the $$$$ amount?


 yup...had to pull the trigger hell, I want to live my life to the fullest and I don't want hairloss to hamper that. I am getting 1700 grafts FUE and it cost me somewhere around 13k I believe...

I'm planning on continuing transplants as my hairloss progresses until I run out of donor or something better comes along...

At the end of the day, some hair on top of your head, even transplants for a nw6...is always better than no hair on top of your head...and with the combination of smp and transplants, I believe we are seeing a new era in restoration here


I can't tell you how excited I am to have Dr. Rahal doing my hairline.

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## hellouser

> yup...had to pull the trigger hell, I want to live my life to the fullest and I don't want hairloss to hamper that. I am getting 1700 grafts FUE and it cost me somewhere around 13k I believe...
> 
> I'm planning on continuing transplants as my hairloss progresses until I run out of donor or something better comes along...
> 
> At the end of the day, some hair on top of your head, even transplants for a nw6...is always better than no hair on top of your head...and with the combination of smp and transplants, I believe we are seeing a new era in restoration here
> 
> 
> I can't tell you how excited I am to have Dr. Rahal doing my hairline.


 At that price though you may as well go to Dr. Gho for *some* regeneration, no? And is Dr Rahal still not scarless?

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## oppenheimer82

guys, i created this thread to discuss this new, interesting method. please take your discussion about gho, nigam etc etc elsewhere. for example to the 1000 other threads on this forum. thank you.

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## FearTheLoss

> At that price though you may as well go to Dr. Gho for *some* regeneration, no? And is Dr Rahal still not scarless?


 First of OP, this piloxll is fake...


secondly, Hell...I don't believe there is any donor regeneration from Gho to be honest. Second of all, I'm never going to shave my donor below a 1-2 guard...third off, I want a Rahal hairline...he is the best in the industry and the hairline is the most important part..in the future as my loss progresses I will go  for pilofocus, more than likely (hopefully Rahal offers too) as there is going to be some regen..and it's scarless...then if things get out of hand I will throw smp all around the head..I'm attacking this beast and not ever giving in...I have confident in future treatments..we will have something better soon...but I am going all out on transplants to enjoy these years while I'm young.

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## Thinning87

> you guys are ridiculous...
> 
> CB- should be a lot better than fin, should be out in 2016 best case, more likely 2017-2018.
> 
> histogen- better than fin and minox, should be released in asia in 2015-2016
> 
> bim- better than minox, should be released in 2015 IN THE USA.
> 
> follica- has grown human hair on bald scalp via wounding, already been through phase I/II trails...adding FGF9 to see if they can get better results...could very well be out in 3 years IN THE USA....as a cure
> ...


 You know I wish this were true more than most things in life, but we have to be more conservative. What you're describing is all best case scenario. You can't rely on these timelines, we've all seen histogen's original timelines from a few years ago, or how replicel thought they had it and then had the phase 1 results they showed, or Follica claiming they might have it within 2 years...

Truth is, a full blown cure will eventually come true, but only from the tsuji/christiano/Jahoda teams. In other words, there is no doubt the stem cell research being done will give us the ultimate cure. But all this stuff is in its infancy and it'll take 10 years BEST case scenario...

In the meantime, we have all our hopes in replicel and Follica. Yeah histogen might be great especially if with a good ht to replenish donor area etc. etc. but in reality the only potential treatments can come from these two companies as they are the only ones left working for the full cure. 

Putting topical anti-dht on your head won't bring hair back, or at least a sufficient amount for decent looks. It will be great for my cousin who is ten years younger though... But for us, don't even rely on it. 

So go for the hair transplant if you want, but I recommend everyone try going with a shaved head first. It's so liberating and you really do forget about it within a few days.

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## rdawg

> yup...had to pull the trigger hell, I want to live my life to the fullest and I don't want hairloss to hamper that. I am getting 1700 grafts FUE and it cost me somewhere around 13k I believe...
> 
> 
> I can't tell you how excited I am to have Dr. Rahal doing my hairline.


 Ive read good things about him but wow that price is ridiculous for a student like me!!

If I had the funds to get one I would, but there's no way im doing a scar FUT one which is still 5-8000 bucks

Is there ANY hope that FUE Ht's become cheaper?

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## hellouser

> First of OP, this piloxll is fake...


 Source to confirm??





> secondly, Hell...I don't believe there is any donor regeneration from Gho to be honest. Second of all, I'm never going to shave my donor below a 1-2 guard...third off, I want a Rahal hairline...he is the best in the industry and the hairline is the most important part..in the future as my loss progresses I will go  for pilofocus, more than likely (hopefully Rahal offers too) as there is going to be some regen..and it's scarless...then if things get out of hand I will throw smp all around the head..I'm attacking this beast and not ever giving in...I have confident in future treatments..we will have something better soon...but I am going all out on transplants to enjoy these years while I'm young.


 Hmmm... well, I cant say I have much to comment on. Well I do, but I dont want to annoy the OP.

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## Amercancer

Sorry guys, this is off topic but I've ordered RU and would love done feed backs on it. Please let me know if I should let it get here caused if it'd not worth it I'll cancer it. Also how should I mix it?

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## Amercancer

Correction:Sorry guys, this is off topic but I've ordered RU and would love some feed back on it. Please let me know if I should let it get here cause if it's not worth it I'll cancel it. Also how should I mix it?

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## Dazza

> Correction:Sorry guys, this is off topic but I've ordered RU and would love some feed back on it. Please let me know if I should let it get here cause if it's not worth it I'll cancel it. Also how should I mix it?


 There are plenty of RU threads, please post your questions there. Don't derail threads. The search function is easy to use.  

Back on topic:
Did the two chaps who joined the trial get their devices? Have they both stopped posting here?

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## tonypizza

Thanks for the summary FearTheLoss.   

To me, the most interesting results will come from Follica.   Since they patented the device we've yet to see their results (unless I am mistaken).   If they didn't have an ace in the hole (proof of concept in some form) you'd think they'd have long ago given up the ghost.

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## simba

> You know I wish this were true more than most things in life, but we have to be more conservative. What you're describing is all best case scenario. You can't rely on these timelines, we've all seen histogen's original timelines from a few years ago, or how replicel thought they had it and then had the phase 1 results they showed, or Follica claiming they might have it within 2 years...
> 
> Truth is, a full blown cure will eventually come true, but only from the tsuji/christiano/Jahoda teams. In other words, there is no doubt the stem cell research being done will give us the ultimate cure. But all this stuff is in its infancy and it'll take 10 years BEST case scenario...
> 
> In the meantime, we have all our hopes in replicel and Follica. Yeah histogen might be great especially if with a good ht to replenish donor area etc. etc. but in reality the only potential treatments can come from these two companies as they are the only ones left working for the full cure. 
> 
> Putting topical anti-dht on your head won't bring hair back, or at least a sufficient amount for decent looks. It will be great for my cousin who is ten years younger though... But for us, don't even rely on it. 
> 
> So go for the hair transplant if you want, but I recommend everyone try going with a shaved head first. It's so liberating and you really do forget about it within a few days.


 Im guessing youre a nw7 in which case yeah youve got a while to go. For guy like me who are basically nw1 with a tiny bit of recession all the stuff coming out in the next couple of years are as good as a cure. Anything that halts further loss without executing my penis will be a god send.

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## simba

> you guys are ridiculous...
> 
> CB- should be a lot better than fin, should be out in 2016 best case, more likely 2017-2018.
> 
> histogen- better than fin and minox, should be released in asia in 2015-2016
> 
> bim- better than minox, should be released in 2015 IN THE USA.
> 
> follica- has grown human hair on bald scalp via wounding, already been through phase I/II trails...adding FGF9 to see if they can get better results...could very well be out in 3 years IN THE USA....as a cure
> ...


 Also we dont need to wait for CB to be released  commercially, if we can see what vehicle they used for phase 2 trials then wed be sorted

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## the_dude78

> Sorry guys, this is off topic but I've ordered RU and would love done feed backs on it. Please let me know if I should let it get here caused if it'd not worth it I'll cancer it. Also how should I mix it?


 Everything but the first post is off topic in this thread. Nice try though, Oppenheimer82.

Any news from the guys who suddenly became part of the trials?

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## Thinning87

> Im guessing youre a nw7 in which case yeah youve got a while to go. For guy like me who are basically nw1 with a tiny bit of recession all the stuff coming out in the next couple of years are as good as a cure. Anything that halts further loss without executing my penis will be a god send.


 Nah dude I'm 25 and nw1 just like you although my thinning makes it necessary for me to use thickening shampoos now before going anywhere important. 

We will have to wait a while before we can use the new products, thats what I'm saying. We will be nw7 when they come out

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## rdawg

I still dont exactly understand what this piloxll stuff is. Can anyone explain the science and technique behind it?

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## Winston

As per our forum policies all threads taken off topic are subject to moderation or deletion, this includes posts that actually discuss the moderation of this forum.  It is the community who sets the tone of all threads, and if the topic is derailed by offensive and inappropriate commentary then it may deleted at the sole description of the moderator. 

Our policies are clear, all you have to do is follow them and respect the decisions of our moderators and staff. If a topic or post is deleted, do not post a reply to the removed post. Comments, questions or concerns on such actions within the forums can be submitted either through the contact form or by clicking on the "report abuse" button within the post. Do not post these comments within the forums.

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## KJ1982

I was wondering, given the nature of this device does that mean that it may be able to either bypass or move more quickly through the FDA/MHRA approval process(es)?

Forgive my ignorance regarding the science behind it all but as it's a device rather than a topical or oral medication doesn't that mean that it need not pass such tight regulation(s)?  :Smile:

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## beetee

It seems to me that many of the people who seemed pretty optimistic about treatments a few months ago are now feeling somewhat pessimistic.  I wonder how many of the posts that are made in this forum are made up of time estimates, either saying that the solution is right around the corner or saying it's 20-30 years away.  

In all honesty, I think that all estimates are probably about equally valid, because no one knows what's going on and what's going to happen.  While we have a very small amount of information, most of it it is still theoretical in regards to what kind of effects certain drugs or techniques MIGHT have on MPB.  We do not have enough information to make realistic estimates of how long certain products will take to get to market and more importantly whether or not they will be effective enough to ever be brought to market.  I don't think the great majority of the people doing the research right now know if anything they're working on will ultimately be effective.  It could be that MPB is something that they can't reverse; it could be that there is something fairly simple that could reverse it entirely.  At this point, everything is pretty much theoretical, and while I'm sure that speculation serves an emotional purpose (and I'm not downplaying this), I don't think anyone should put all of their faith in any of the estimates originated by people not currently working for a company that's actively researching these products.

Also, in regards to whether or not people working for drug companies care about hair loss.  My opinion is that what they care more about than anything is making money.  They want to make their investments in relatively low risk/high reward scenarios.  I think a lot of companies weren't interested in putting money into hair loss research as they didn't have any indications as to what pathways or techniques could possibly lead to effective treatments.  The fact that there's been a greater understanding of the mechanisms and chemical pathways involved in hair loss in the last few years means that there are more actual avenues for people to investigate, which COULD lead to increased research, at least until the obvious possible treatments addressing those pathways have been exhausted.  I think this is probably a better time for hair loss research than perhaps any time in the past, so there's some reason to be optimistic there, but of course we don't at all know what (if anything) will come of it.

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## baldymcgee

The issue of drug companies spending their research dollars is really complicated.

Sure, Novartis can charge $20 for a single Gleevec pill but they also have to swallow the costs of giving the drug cheaply to the poor and indigent (they don't have to do this, but every single drug company has procedures for giving truly "hard up" people their products at drastically reduced costs).

However, hairloss being cosmetic, they can charge whatever they'd like for the drug and never have to deal with ethical questions ("how can you charge so much for a life saving drug?!?!?!?")

A good/safe/reliable hairloss cure is practically a license to print money.

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## luca10

post from Vraf

*Hi Guys,

Sorry or the delay with answers, I had to wait for Yoram answers.
Although Yoram gave answers to brunobald, he didn’t know it will be published and the restrictions about revealing the knowledge still exist.
You must understand guys that the Pilogics partnership did not want this story to be published till the product will be available for marketing.
They know that the word has already spread but they still want to keep most of the details in secret.
Therefore, I was asked, again, to be very restrict with the data and talk mostly on my personal experience. 
Any issue, which will have the potential of revealing harmful data will receive no answer or be sent to Yoram for approval.

YOU ALL MUST TAKE MY ANSWERS IN LIMITS! I’M NOT PILOGICS REPRESENTATIVE NOR ANY OTHER FORMAL SPOKESMAN!
I was just given an approval to share some staff cause I want to give you hope and good filling as I, myself would have wanted to be treated like.

Please forgive my English, it’s not my mother language. 
Please be patient with the speed of my posts since I’m making efforts to avoid English mistakes.

In the following, I will try, has much as I can, to tell you about my experience and some answers to your questions:

1.	I’m 43 YO, new in the bald staff. I believe, comparing to the Norwood scale, that I’m 3 vortex.
Started using Rogaine 1.5 months before starting to use Piloxll.
I quitted Rogaine 5 days before starting to use Piloxll.
2.	Before starting my trial, Yoram shaved 2 spots on my crown, marked them with under skin paint and pictured with a special microscopic camera. My hair was counted per stage (anagen etc.) and 4 days later I passed the same procedure. the trial started only after the second procedure. 
3.	I’m using the Piloxll 3 times a day, 5 minutes on the crown and 5 minutes on the front. The protocol is only 5 minutes on all scalp 3 times a week. But… the more proven to be better.
4.	The device is very easy to use and can be used during lots of other activities like watching television.
5.	There are no side effects at all! Hundreds of trail users reported no side effects.
6.	The device is a very high-tech instrument. Since I’m in a trial, I have the latest prototype which has further functionalities like recording every treatment that I do and the feedbacks it receives from my scalp. This functionality will not be in market device. There are so many hidden technology in it so believe me, don’t try to replicate it, it’s a waste of time even trying to follow the patent will not help.. 
7.	Although I take picture of my scalp every few days, I’m not allowed to share them with you, yet. Maybe I will receive approval in the future, it’s in discussion. I can tell you that I see more thickness and even fuzzes in the front side which didn’t grow hair for years.

For some question you asked:
1.	Pilogics has nothing to do with Polica! Pilogics has an approved patent which its idea building blocks started many many years ago. In my opinion, they didn’t even know about them till they read about the comparison in the forums.
2.	“How many phases of studies are there in Israel?” – I’m not allowed to share this information.
3.	“Also, what phase study is the treatment in at this time?” - I’m not allowed to share this information.
4.	“And how much longer until it completes testing so we can purchase it?” -The current tests has nothing to do with marketing. The product will be out in a year. Maximum.
5.	“Also, is there a reason why he won't sell the treatment now from a country that will allow him to do so?” - No one said that he is not allowed to sell right now. Selling is not pending only on regulation.
6.	“Why did they abandon Pillox 2, Pillox 3, and Pillox 4?” – They did not abandon, every product has a “Product developing evolution”. 
7.	“Is he just now starting Pillox 5 and if he is do we have to wait years before it's marketed and we can use it?” – In a year.

Sorry if I missed a question, you may keep posting questions and I promise to do my best to give you answers.*

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## luca10

Vraf

*1.	are there any chemicals involved which of we should worry about? --- No chemicals

2.	is there any ingredient in it which could prevent the device from hitting the market in some countries? ---No

3.	when did the pilox project start? how many years of development? --- 5 years

4.	Is there a picture of the device? -- Of course but obviously, can’t share it.

5.	what is the scientific basis for this treatment? -- It was discussed so many times in this and other forums + written in the patent. Please read.

6.	Is this capable of restoring to NW0? -- I believe it depends on one’s personal status and his react to the treatment. As for myself, from what I managed to understand, it has an high probability.

7.	Is this capable of restoring temple areas and crown? --- Yes

8.	When restoring do crown and temple areas take longer than others or is it all in one go at the same time? – Looks like temples take longer. But this goes for any other known treatment and for treatments that will come in the future.

9.	Was it Yoram's request that the Bald truth remove those threads or competitors? -- No

10.	 Are you seeing results faster than you thought by that I mean are you really noting it weekly? -- Yes but as you all know, only a professional examination by microscopic camera would support these claims. This will be done after 2 month of use. 

11.	What was the reason behind Yorams radio silence on this whole thing? --- already explained. 

12.	 LASER? --- NO!!!

13.	you surely have read the patent of the apparatus: --- I did not. I tried but there were to many terms in English for which Google Translate couldn’t translate to Hebrew. This is the reason that I started the first thread, I wanted the professionals to read it and explain the way it works.*

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## Jasari

> First of OP, this piloxll is fake...
> 
> 
> secondly, Hell...I don't believe there is any donor regeneration from Gho to be honest. Second of all, I'm never going to shave my donor below a 1-2 guard...third off, I want a Rahal hairline...he is the best in the industry and the hairline is the most important part..in the future as my loss progresses I will go  for pilofocus, more than likely (hopefully Rahal offers too) as there is going to be some regen..and it's scarless...then if things get out of hand I will throw smp all around the head..I'm attacking this beast and not ever giving in...I have confident in future treatments..we will have something better soon...but I am going all out on transplants to enjoy these years while I'm young.


 You pretty much read my mind - Enjoy life while you're young. If it takes a transplant to help you do that, then there is no point wasting your youth being miserable. 

It's pretty much rolling the dice and hoping that future treatments come to fruition but I've seen enough to think we're getting close to a solid treatment.

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## rdawg

Interesting stuff but I have no way of telling if this is legitimate.

I hope its real, but with this kind of stuff there's alot of fake products and posters out there!!!

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## Artista

Hi all , I just read through this thread this morning.
Hey *Crafter*  I wanted to respond to your response to one of *FearTheLoss*' comments..

"you're overly optimistic. Where did he say this? "although Artista said the regen pics were "breathtaking""? i've seen the one pic from Dr Wesley and looks nothing amazing - about 5 hairs"

The one pic that you had seen is not comparable to the *phase test 'before and after' photos* that are on *Dr Wesley's* _PowerPoint Presentation_ shown only to a handful of people (Spencer and myself included) during the first quarter of 2013.
Dr Wesley's  presentation given at the August San Fran' conference  is not the same one.
What he has been able to do during those phase tests were 'breathtaking' indeed.
I wouldnt just say that.  I believe that Spencer Kobren expressed the same and I would  agree with Spencer AND  Dr Wesley in also stating that, although those outcomes are very impressive, it was anecdotal evidence.
Time will tell how truly effective his new method will be.  Im glad to be accepted as one of his upcoming phase test patients  in early Spring, 2014.
So to clarify,* Crafter* the one pic you have seen (about 5 hairs) was not one of the 'breathtaking' pics..although it was also in the private 'PowerPoint'.
Actually ,that presentation was very in-depth compared to the San Fran presentation.   I will be sharing my experiences from the phase testing once I get the OK to do so(of course).
Cheers all
Oh, I almost forgot,,until we get hard scientific proof of what *Piloxll* does or doesn't do, Id have to agree with *Rdawg* < hi man

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## hellouser

> Hi all , I just read through this thread this morning.
> Hey *Crafter*  I wanted to respond to your response to one of *FearTheLoss*' comments..
> 
> "you're overly optimistic. Where did he say this? "although Artista said the regen pics were "breathtaking""? i've seen the one pic from Dr Wesley and looks nothing amazing - about 5 hairs"
> 
> The one pic that you had seen is not comparable to the *phase test 'before and after' photos* that are on *Dr Wesley's* _PowerPoint Presentation_ shown only to a handful of people (Spencer and myself included) during the first quarter of 2013.
> Dr Wesley's  presentation given at the August San Fran' conference  is not the same one.
> What he has been able to do during those phase tests were 'breathtaking' indeed.
> I wouldnt just say that.  I believe that Spencer Kobren expressed the same and I would  agree with Spencer AND  Dr Wesley in also stating that, although those outcomes are very impressive, it was anecdotal evidence.
> ...


 5 regenerated hairs in a very small area that requires one of those tiny cameras is actually GREAT. Do this over a large area and we're talking thousands of new hairs.

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## hairy

I believe Dr. Nigam has moved to Israel and started this company.

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## oppenheimer82

why do people keep derailing this thread? **** OFF!

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## cookies

> why do people keep derailing this thread? **** OFF!


 Agreed, it's not like there are not enough threads on those other subjects. 

Anyway, on the other forum vraf will no longer be answering questions regarding piloxll. Yoram will do it instead, but in a closed of part of a forum, unfortunately. I have no idea which one.

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## Thinning@30

It is really disappointing what happened at the other forum.  I wanted more information about this stuff, and was interested in hearing what Vraf and the developers had to say.  Yes, there are lots of scams and snake oils out there, but at the very least, a Q&A might have enabled us to evaluate some of the claims behind this.  It wasn't even like they were selling anything yet.  I hope the developers will engage the hair loss community in some way going forward.

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## PaddyBateman

Any chance Spencer will have looked into this, and will discuss on his next show?

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## Atum

Hoping this will work.

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## NeedHairASAP

wow, this is the real deal.

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## zeos

> wow, this is the real deal.


 please enlighten us

----------


## Sogeking

> wow, this is the real deal.


 You should at least try to to backup your claims. Otherwise... you might be trolling.

----------


## zeos

can somebody please ask Yoram Benit if he is willing to collaborate/cooperate with respectable dermatologists outside of Israel for Pilox trials?

i hope he can help us,we're all desperate.

thanks in advance!!!!

----------


## chimera

> 4.	And how much longer until it completes testing so we can purchase it? -The current tests has nothing to do with marketing. The product will be out in a year. Maximum.
> 
> 7.	Is he just now starting Pillox 5 and if he is do we have to wait years before it's marketed and we can use it?  In a year.


 Just one year more does not sound so bad. Does not sound so bad at all. I know this new treatment is almost surely another scam, like 99% of new traetments released. But as someone who is seeing results with the dermaroller, I have to say this is fairly exciting.

----------


## PaddyBateman

> Just one year more does not sound so bad. Does not sound so bad at all. I know this new treatment is almost surely another scam, like 99% of new traetments released. But as someone who is seeing results with the dermaroller, I have to say this is fairly exciting.


 You are excited by a future treatment you are almost sure is a scam?

----------


## chimera

Yeah.. it is hard to think this this is not a scam... because let's face it, every new treatment is a scam... but this treatment is to be like an improved version of the dermaroller, a device capable of making even wider wounds (the size of the wound is very important)... and I am already seeing results with the normal dermaroller... so I just can't help it...

----------


## Kiwi

> can somebody please ask Yoram Benit if he is willing to collaborate/cooperate with respectable dermatologists outside of Israel for Pilox trials?
> 
> i hope he can help us,we're all desperate.
> 
> thanks in advance!!!!


 Maybe our they will be like **** you America for always screwing us over :P

----------


## burtandernie

I will just flat out say I dont believe anything until it goes through trials, or has published peer reviewed studies/research. Way too much false info and hype to waste time believing in another pie in the sky cure. This kind of stuff appears out of nowhere like every other month

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I will just flat out say I dont believe anything until it goes through trials, or has published peer reviewed studies/research. Way too much false info and hype to waste time believing in another pie in the sky cure. This kind of stuff appears out of nowhere like every other month


 One of the docs invovled in this is doing just that: publishing peer-reviewed

every single test-user is on pilox ONLY-- no minox or propecia results mixed in

results seen in 3-4 months

continued use is neccesary, but is supposedly 5 minutes a day and can be done watching TV

no actual "wounding" per se, but it works off the same mechanisms as wounding 

The amazing pics we saw were from pilox II, they are currently on their fifth iteration of the product Pilox V-- which will be released next year. If that was II and this is V, I can only imagine the results it's giving.

The large majority of testers are responding, and well

He is using tichoscans, all of that stuff, very carefully collecting all sorts of data (again he's trying to publish a peer-reviewed article, so)

Doc's involved are from a reputable institute in israel

More updates to come....

----------


## PaddyBateman

> One of the docs invovled in this is doing just that: publishing peer-reviewed
> 
> every single test-user is on pilox ONLY-- no minox or propecia results mixed in
> 
> results seen in 3-4 months
> 
> continued use is neccesary, but is supposedly 5 minutes a day and can be done watching TV
> 
> no actual "wounding" per se, but it works off the same mechanisms as wounding 
> ...


 Released next year? Is that just the "aim" (which means later), or actually confirmed from the horses mouth? 

Very exciting if so.

----------


## chimera

> every single test-user is on pilox ONLY-- no minox or propecia results mixed in


 
Can you imagine the kind of results you might be able to get combining piloxll with those two?  :EEK!: 




> The amazing pics we saw were from pilox II, they are currently on their fifth iteration of the product Pilox V-- which will be released next year. If that was II and this is V, I can only imagine the results it's giving.


 Next year?... is that 2014 0r 2015?





> no actual "wounding" per se, but it works off the same mechanisms as wounding


 No actual wunding?... then how does it work...?

----------


## Sogeking

> One of the docs invovled in this is doing just that: publishing peer-reviewed
> 
> every single test-user is on pilox ONLY-- no minox or propecia results mixed in
> 
> results seen in 3-4 months
> 
> continued use is neccesary, but is supposedly 5 minutes a day and can be done watching TV
> 
> no actual "wounding" per se, but it works off the same mechanisms as wounding 
> ...


 I should not be reading this, I don't want to get my hopes up. I just accepted my fate. But hey if this stuff works, it would be cool. Gahhh lets just see, but I remain sceptical.

@chimera

In a different thread now gone, next year was referring to 2014. Have to admit those pics, IF real, were good. I only skimmed them and then the thread was gone so I couldn't look at them in detail.

I mean if there are five iterations already you pass a point in time when you can finance and study something without getting any financial or scientific benefit from it. Thats what happened to Aderans, these guys didn't get funding because their method worked very poorly. I mean at one time in their development process they wanted to test people for specific gene in order to know if their treatment would have any effect.

----------


## cookies

I'm not sure if the results will be published in a peer reviewed journal. The testing doesn't seem to take place in a controlled environment (testers are given the device and use it at home, two guys from here could join the test at any moment), and I'm also not sure (from what I've read) that tests are double blind. Both these things make me sceptical. 
Yoram said he hopes the device should be out in 8 months, but he is not involved in the marketing.

I'm also not sure if the new iterations mean the device works better, it could also mean that it's more easy to use for example.

----------


## hellouser

> I'm also not sure if the new iterations mean the device works better, it could also mean that it's more easy to use for example.


 Or cheaper to manufacture.

----------


## PaddyBateman

Was there ever an explanation as to why previous threads on Pilox were pulled from this site?

----------


## petewete

This has scam written all over it. 

But I hope Im wrong.

----------


## deuce

Is anyone optimistic about this treatment?  The photos are the most authentic looking photos I have ever seen.

----------


## DanWS

> Is anyone optimistic about this treatment?  The photos are the most authentic looking photos I have ever seen.


 If those photos are genuine then I'm hugely excited about this treatment, I can't deny it. Plus the fact that it's supposedly affordable AND available within a year just puts the icing on the cake. That's the problem right now though; it's almost too good to be true and since we don't have much information to go on it's best to remain skeptical for now. However if those photos are genuine and what we've been hearing about this treatment is true then it will be a monumental game-changer, no doubt.

----------


## hellouser

> This has scam written all over it. 
> 
> But I hope Im wrong.


 All over it? Not really.... the photos looked credible. Dr. Nigam's photos however... those are scam-worthy.

----------


## PaddyBateman

> All over it? Not really.... the photos looked credible. Dr. Nigam's photos however... those are scam-worthy.


 Does it need to pass an Israeli equivalent of FDA etc ? Or because it's not drugs, it is straight to market.

Like other people, I'm trying not to get excited about this because its always disappointment after disappointment ... But... I'm getting a little excited. 

If this thing works, then Replicel, Histogen etc gonna have had the rug pulled from under them.

----------


## bananana

I must say this just has a legit "aura" around it, no big claims, no big hype, just some pics that look mighty good, and people working instead of bragging online.  :Wink: 

I hope I'm right. This could be a major game changer if it's legit - and it seems it is!

Keeping my fingers crossed for israelis!

חברים שמחים!
 :Smile:

----------


## gainspotter

Apologies if this sounds a bit thick but where can we view the photos?

----------


## DanWS

> Apologies if this sounds a bit thick but where can we view the photos?


 [IMG]http://www.*****************/interact/attachment.php?attachmentid=22421[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.*****************/interact/attachment.php?attachmentid=22422[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.*****************/interact/attachment.php?attachmentid=22423[/IMG]

----------


## gainspotter

> [IMG]http://www.*****************/interact/attachment.php?attachmentid=22421[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]http://www.*****************/interact/attachment.php?attachmentid=22422[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]http://www.*****************/interact/attachment.php?attachmentid=22423[/IMG]


 They don't seem to work but ill try copy and pasting the link thanks bro

----------


## Dazza

> They don't seem to work but ill try copy and pasting the link thanks bro


 Just google "piloxll photo. they're cashed in google images. First page

----------


## hellouser

There's no way the results on those photos can be faked... they just look REALLY good.

----------


## Sogeking

Well it ain't full regrowth but it is definitely an improvement. However it seems that bald spots remain, as seen in the second subject. The best results are seen in the first case. However (IMHO) all of them at current state still need added hair follicles for density...


Hmm but i believe this requires constant application if it works otherwise you revert back (just speculation ignore me).

----------


## burtandernie

Hopefully it turns out, but I am forgetting about it until its out and we see the actual results. A study where someone else reproduces it and gets similar results. I just flat out dont believe anything anymore until its proven. Its not up to us to buy their overpriced garbage and guess if it works they need to prove it to us first. All products not just this.

----------


## Sogeking

> Hopefully it turns out, but I am forgetting about it until its out and we see the actual results. A study where someone else reproduces it and gets similar results. I just flat out dont believe anything anymore until its proven. Its not up to us to buy their overpriced garbage and guess if it works they need to prove it to us first. All products not just this.


 I wholeheartedly agree. Merry Christmas btw  :Smile: .

I just wish we find out if it is real or bust next year instead of pulling our noses for over a decade like Aderans did.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

8 months until release, hopefully.

----------


## KJ1982

> 8 months until release, hopefully.


 May I ask where you got this information, *NeedHairASAP*? Are you one the few who are talking with Yoram Benita?  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

> 8 months until release, hopefully.


 Now where have I heard that before  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .

----------


## Kalio

> May I ask where you got this information, *NeedHairASAP*? Are you one the few who are talking with Yoram Benita?


 I believe thats what the original Pilox II thread creator said back in August "This product will be commercially available in a year, max!"

----------


## hellouser

> Now where have I heard that before .


 Never actually, lol. 8 months is something new... but we've heard '2-5 years' plenty of times *cough*cotsarelis*cough*

----------


## TheSwingingGate

Trying to stay cautiously optimistic about this, but I must admit, I am really excited. Really hope this works. As a diffuse thinner with some recession, this sounds like it would be a great fit.

----------


## BoSox

Is this out already? If so, where can I get this solution?

----------


## LongWayHome

I'm going to say this again: This is real.
I am from Israel, and I know this guy.
As far as if it really works, I don't know.
The pictures are real, but who knows? it can turn out as a failure eventually.
I guess it's individual.

----------


## KJ1982

Am I correct in thinking that you're taking part in the trial(s), *LongWayHome*?  :Smile: 

I know that I shouldn't allow myself to get excited at the news of this supposed treatment as it only sets one up for disappointment if, and more likely _when_, nothing comes of it.

However, I must confess that this particular potential treatment has got me very interested indeed. Let's just hope that it's genuine and that it has a good success rate.

----------


## nickk

Did he say when we might be able to try out the treatment?

----------


## Pentarou

> I'm going to say this again: This is real.
> I am from Israel, and I know this guy.
> As far as if it really works, I don't know.
> The pictures are real, but who knows? it can turn out as a failure eventually.
> I guess it's individual.


 Are you going to trial it, out of curiousity?

----------


## Thinning87

> Am I correct in thinking that you're taking part in the trial(s), *LongWayHome*? 
> 
> I know that I shouldn't allow myself to get excited at the news of this supposed treatment as it only sets one up for disappointment if, and more likely _when_, nothing comes of it.
> 
> However, I must confess that this particular potential treatment has got me very interested indeed. Let's just hope that it's genuine and that it has a good success rate.


 If you look at the forums, 2013 has been a very bad year. Although some major positive news has come out, it has also confirmed that we're not as close as we thought we would be a year ago. 

I think this new "cure" is the consequence of all this anxiety that has taken over the forums. No way the cure comes out like this.

----------


## KJ1982

No fear, *Thinning87*; I'm more than ready to accept that this will be nothing more than another disappointment.

However, I'm allowing a spark of hope to continue on; without it, the future, at least for the next few years, would be looking rather bleak.  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

> I believe Dr. Nigam has moved to Israel and started this company.


 lol

----------


## LongWayHome

Well, I'm not part of the trial.
But I met Yoram, and saw the pictures, and actually,
It was supposed to be "quiet", and he's kinda mad that it came out,
Cause now he's scared that someone will steal the idea or something.
Anyway, as he says: "A product like this is a time-bomb, it has to be out on the market in maximum a year."

So I asked "Do you mean that until 2015 it's going to be out for sure?"

and he replied "Yes."

That's all I can say for now.

----------


## KJ1982

Thank you for your answer, *LongWayHome*.  :Smile:

----------


## luca10



----------


## luca10



----------


## DanWS

Some impressive results.... where did u get these new pics from, Luca?

----------


## Jasari

This is actually the most impressive compilation of any pictures I've seen from any MPB treatment to date - What is the method and release date?

----------


## KJ1982

Please be real, please be real, please be real...  :EEK!: 

[crosses fingers]

----------


## Artista

Luca,, what can you tell us about these images? Thank you bro

----------


## luca10

vraf:

For your request, Yoram asked me to upload the photos i have from the hairdresser.
These are all that i have and some of them were never published before.
As for new photos, Yoram will decide and give you an answer.
I can't upload more than 3 in each post so it will be in multiple posts.

Admin,
if you could gather them to one post it will be better for everyone.


Sorry, I do not speak English.

----------


## Artista

Luca, what connection do you have with this treatment?

----------


## Atum

It seems that it doesn't regrow on the frontal area.  But maybe that comes with time?

----------


## LongWayHome

Haha lol, the pictures are real.
I recognize the pages, it's kind of a booklet.
I didn't remember the results were so great actually.
Anyway, it seems like it can stop the hairloss, and has good chance of regrowth, but not frontal. not much at least.
Good enough I guess.

----------


## bananana

Ladies and gentlemen,

these are the most legit photos of any MPB treatment I ever saw.
There is even EXIF data about the pics (focal length, date, exposure, resolution etc) This is how it's done. 

@atum @longwayhome
Check out patient number 50 - he grew hair all over!

I have a very positive feeling about this, if this is legit (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise), we have a major game changer here!

----------


## One

I have a question: 

What is there difference between this Pilox and a whatever snake oil? 

Why is not it the ordinary business trick?

Thanks

----------


## KJ1982

I wouldn't say that it doesn't seem to promote growth at the front, along the hairline. A few of the images do show an improvement, though to a lesser degree than that seen on the crown.

For example, the images showing patients 50 and 23 show improved hairlines. Perhaps it's simply the case that hair in the frontal region is more stubborn, therefore requiring more time before one sees results...?

It would be interesting to hear what Yoram Benitah has to say regarding the matter if someone would be willing to ask him.

Whatever the case, this is certainly something that has me interested though I'm trying hard to not get too excited just yet...  :Smile:

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Never actually, lol. 8 months is something new... but we've heard '2-5 years' plenty of times *cough*cotsarelis*cough*


 
The is from Yoram's mouth....

Yoram, the man who, if results are true, is the greatest man to ever walk planet earth. Bar maybe 20-50 other people....

----------


## FearTheLoss

this is clearly fake, another product not even going through FDA approval process.

----------


## chimera

> this is clearly fake, another product not even going through FDA approval process.


 FDA= Food and drug administration...

Is Piloxll food?, no, it is not...

Is piloxll a drug?, no, it is not a drug...

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> this is clearly fake, another product not even going through FDA approval process.


 What about it clearly fake?

you've said this multiple times, every time without elaborating on what your opinion is based on.

If you're basing your "its fake" opinion entirely on one fact, the fact it's not getting FDA approval, then I'm sorry but your opinion should be considered poorly formed and not to be given much, if any, thought.

----------


## Pentarou

> Haha lol, the pictures are real.
> I recognize the pages, it's kind of a booklet.
> I didn't remember the results were so great actually.
> Anyway, it seems like it can stop the hairloss, and has good chance of regrowth, but not frontal. not much at least.
> Good enough I guess.


 Imagine combining Pilox treatment + a FUE for the frontal hairline. That'd be awesome.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Haha lol, the pictures are real.
> I recognize the pages, it's kind of a booklet.
> I didn't remember the results were so great actually.
> Anyway, it seems like it can stop the hairloss, and has good chance of regrowth, but not frontal. not much at least.
> Good enough I guess.


 Good chance of regrowth?

From what I'm seeing, regrowth is the norm.

----------


## 534623

> There's no way the results on those photos can be faked... they just look REALLY good.


 I don't think they are faked and such results are definitely possible. For keeping the zombies alive for at least a certain time (around 5-15 years or so), it would defintely something better than propecia or minox. Data from a LARGE patient group would be interesting.

----------


## Artista

The FDA is an agency of The United States.  Isn't this treatment being tested in Israel ? I'm not saying that it's a legitimate treatment but if it was here in the United States then yes, it would have to go through a vigorous FDA approval process

----------


## hellouser

> The FDA is an agency of The United States.  Isn't this treatment being tested in Israel ? I'm not saying that it's a legitimate treatment but if it was here in the United States then yes, it would have to go through a vigorous FDA approval process


 I hope to god its not going through FDA bullshit. If it were, it'd never get released.

----------


## Thinning87

Well if this were to become legal anywhere in the world you could just fly there, buy the damn thing and have them teach you how to use it, and put it in a bag.

----------


## chimera

I got to say this is very exciting.... but at the same time, I admit I am very suspicious about it. I don't think this is good. We should not be able to discuss this right here. The info of a product like this should not be leaked to any forum as easy as this. No respectable company would allow something like this.

It's like the doctors are trying to use this guy "vraf" or whatever his name is to leak the info to us on purpose. And that's not good sign I think. Because that sound like the kind of thing people like nigam would do...

(But I know luca10 is not a shill as he is on another forum with me and I know he is good)

I mean... a real company with a real product would not care about gaining the attention of a bunch of sad losers on a hair loss forum. That's not the way real products work...

Anyway, I hope this really works.

----------


## Kiwi

> Well if this were to become legal anywhere in the world you could just fly there, buy the damn thing and have them teach you how to use it, and put it in a bag.


 Exactly. The FDA can get _ucked. American politics are retarded.... I'm going to mail order one if I can. Or 10. Heck if if works I'll buy one for all you b-arches.

----------


## Kiwi

> I don't think they are faked and such results are definitely possible. For keeping the zombies alive for at least a certain time (around 5-15 years or so), it would defintely something better than propecia or minox. Data from a LARGE patient group would be interesting.


 I was wondering what you might think of this. Fingers crossed eh  :Smile:

----------


## bananana

@chimera,

A far more sensitive things have leaked before (i.e. wikileaks), i don't think this is done on purpose.
This product doesn't need this kind of marketing, it will sell by itself.

----------


## Pentarou

> I don't think they are faked and such results are definitely possible. For keeping the zombies alive for at least a certain time (around 5-15 years or so), it would defintely something better than propecia or minox. Data from a LARGE patient group would be interesting.


 I agree with Iron Man.

----------


## Atum

Man, i hope this is real!!! Just a glimmer of hope for next year, just when i started going through a period of hopelessness.

----------


## TwoInchCircle

Part of me hopes this is all real and wants to see this hit the market within a year because I hate what my hair's become in the last 18 months and I hate what it's done to me as a person.

At the same time, another part of me hopes this is all real because it would be the biggest middle finger to all the other companies taking their sweet time with their treatments. I'd love for this to hit the market and other companies (that shall not be named) lose millions of dollars because of their slowness. 

Maybe I'm just in a spiteful mood today because of the stressful holidays, but I hope both those things happen and a good number of us can move on.

Today's crankiness aside, if this IS real, it's the best Christmas present I could have asked for!!!

----------


## hellouser

> I'd love for this to hit the market and other companies (that shall not be named) lose millions of dollars because of their slowness.


 Aderans already got what they deserved for taking so damn long. Next up: Follica. They've been dancing around for almost a decade.

----------


## KJ1982

My hair's thinned quite a lot over the last three months or so, primarily along the hairline. My forelock shows it terribly.

It's just a shame that, if this proves to be genuine, it's still the best part of a year away. I could really do with it now... XD

Still, if it does prove to be genuine then I suppose that any loss should prove only to be a short-term matter, reversible with the device. Well, assuming that it does work well along the hairline, of course...

I guess that I'll be depending on Toppik for a while yet.  :Smile:

----------


## cookies

> Check out patient number 50 - he grew hair all over!


 Actually, his results at 8 months are way better then his results at 12 months. We also have to keep in mind that this is just a selection of people who used it. I'd rather see the results from client 1 to 280.

----------


## bananana

> Actually, his results at 8 months are way better then his results at 12 months. We also have to keep in mind that this is just a selection of people who used it. I'd rather see the results from client 1 to 280.


 hm, agreed - BUT, in the 12 month photo the skin is obviously lighter (longer exposure time).

Nevertheless, the regrowth compared to day 1 is nothing less of amazing.

Patient number 35 is relatively close to my condition (and the same age), his regrowth after only 5 months look great.

----------


## Sogeking

If this is all real there are still some unanswered questions though, but that would be speculation so let us hold on that. Anyways those 8 and 12 months results really show a lot of regrowth but it seems, given that time frame, it has reached its peak. 
Won't go into wishful thinking, lets see if this works first.

----------


## cocacola

I haven't followed this, but seems it could be the one. Its so embedded in my head that hair loss treatments fail or suck that i have difficulty imagining the day i will be able to live hair-loss worry free.

Any info on side effects or release dates?

----------


## bananana

> I haven't followed this, but seems it could be the one. Its so embedded in my head that hair loss treatments fail or suck that i have difficulty imagining the day i will be able to live hair-loss worry free.
> 
> Any info on side effects or release dates?


 Release date is probably end of 2014.

I have a worm of doubt now in my head - why are the 8th month results better then 12th month? 

Female patient show increased growth between 8th and 12th month.

----------


## cookies

There isn't a specific release date yet, but according to the guy who is testing it, will be something like 8 months.

----------


## KJ1982

There's also no information regarding potential side-effect, *cocacola*. Well, so far as I'm aware at least.

I'd very much like to get more information about this; it's just a shame (though, so far as I'm concerned, completely understandable) that Yoram Benitah chose to limit the information to private forums.  :Smile:

----------


## Thinning87

> Aderans already got what they deserved for taking so damn long. Next up: Follica. They've been dancing around for almost a decade.


 I'm afraid Follica will be next yea

----------


## locke999

> Aderans already got what they deserved for taking so damn long. Next up: Follica. They've been dancing around for almost a decade.


 Yes, let's all wish these companies fail so there will be no cure.

That way we can sit comfortably from our chairs doing nothing but rant at those people who are actually trying to do something.

----------


## oppenheimer82

this seems to be the real deal guys. cheap, super effective and available to the general public within 9 months. just wait for additional information which will be released in the coming weeks.

----------


## chimera

> this seems to be the real deal guys. cheap, super effective and available to the general public within 9 months. just wait for additional information which will be released in the coming weeks.


 Yeah... the only thing left is to find out if it is not a scam...

----------


## Thinning87

> this seems to be the real deal guys. cheap, super effective and available to the general public within 9 months. just wait for additional information which will be released in the coming weeks.


 Hahahhahahahahahha

----------


## hellouser

> Hahahhahahahahahha


 You should see the photographs of the patients. They're on Hair Loss Talk. The results are absolutely amazing. And the photographs are exactly what all of us would expect; clear, in focus, nearly the same lighting in all and consistent.

----------


## Jcm800

What's the method of application? Can anyone post pictures here?

----------


## UK_

I'm really not convinced by this... perhaps someone could give me a reason to get excited about this... but it's just literally let-down after let-down these days... I've no reason to even begin thinking this PiloxII crap will be any different.

Also regarding 8 months timeline.... why 8 months?  Why so specific?  What source did this come from?... if 8 months until release then they must have sailed through and finished all their products and they're simply creating a plan to market the product... in terms of clinical trials for hair loss... 8 months is like a millisecond. 

When something sounds too good to be true...

----------


## BDDFreak

> I'm really not convinced by this... perhaps someone could give me a reason to get excited about this... but it's just literally let-down after let-down these days... I've no reason to even begin thinking this PiloxII crap will be any different.


 It's probably better that you don't get excited for this. Just know that in 8 months you'll know if this is a scam or not. I'm excited only because of the pictures tbh.

----------


## chimera

> I'm really not convinced by this... perhaps someone could give me a reason to get excited about this... but it's just literally let-down after let-down these days... I've no reason to even begin thinking this PiloxII crap will be any different.
> 
> Also regarding 8 months timeline.... why 8 months?  Why so specific?  What source did this come from?... if 8 months until release then they must have sailed through and finished all their products and they're simply creating a plan to market the product... in terms of clinical trials for hair loss... 8 months is like a millisecond. 
> 
> When something sounds too good to be true...


 Well, they said they have been working for years on this and that this  is the fifth iteration of the product... and the one which is finally going to make it in to the market...

Then again... how do we know it is true...?

----------


## PaddyBateman

> You should see the photographs of the patients. They're on Hair Loss Talk. The results are absolutely amazing. And the photographs are exactly what all of us would expect; clear, in focus, nearly the same lighting in all and consistent.


 Hellouser, do you have a link to those on hair loss talk ? Wouldn't mind a gander.

----------


## Thinning87

> You should see the photographs of the patients. They're on Hair Loss Talk. The results are absolutely amazing. And the photographs are exactly what all of us would expect; clear, in focus, nearly the same lighting in all and consistent.


 already seen them. 

If it's too easy it ain't true

----------


## Kiwi

> already seen them. 
> 
> If it's too easy it ain't true


 What's the link to the pics?

----------


## chimera

> Hellouser, do you have a link to those on hair loss talk ? Wouldn't mind a gander.


 



> What's the link to the pics?


 The pics are in this thread too, in page 10 I think...

----------


## doke

jcm asked and i now what is the application method and is it a drug or snake oil.

----------


## PaddyBateman

> The pics are in this thread too, in page 10 I think...


 Thanks....and holy hell they look amazing. And all in a relatively short space of time.

Please let this come to fruition!

There's been so much focus on Replicel, Histogen, Aderans, Follica....yet Pilox may have crept up in the dark to capture the glory.

Hopefully Spencer will discuss it on his next show.

----------


## PaddyBateman

> jcm asked and i now what is the application method and is it a drug or snake oil.


 Is similar to Follica. A devise.

----------


## doke

so you will have to purchase a device  to apply whatever the topical ingredience is so maybe expensive also as mentioned before there was the topical from the same uni called piliel that regrew hair on wounded scalps but the gel was not the same when it came to market by osmotics fns serum.
The original gel was trialed by medical life science and it did not work but the professer said it did not contain the right ingredience so as said got osmotics to make and market it.
Did anyone see the pictures of the hair regrowth with pileil gel it seemed impressive.

----------


## DanWS

> so you will have to purchase a device  to apply whatever the topical ingredience is so maybe expensive also as mentioned before there was the topical from the same uni called piliel that regrew hair on wounded scalps but the gel was not the same when it came to market by osmotics fns serum.
> The original gel was trialed by medical life science and it did not work but the professer said it did not contain the right ingredience so as said got osmotics to make and market it.
> Did anyone see the pictures of the hair regrowth with pileil gel it seemed impressive.


 It's not a topical, it's some sort of device. Diagram pics here:

http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/e...tring=robotics

----------


## doke

if anyones interested the prof at technion uni  link on piliel www.technion.ac.il/technion/dimotech/essay.html

----------


## bananana

My instinct says this is the right stuff, I know we dont have much info about this, but these photos are BY FAR, the BEST mpb related photos we've ever seen.

I can say with 99% certainty this is not photoshop or HT. It really looks genuine.

Time will tell now.

----------


## burtandernie

Maybe my standards are too high, but I dont see that much improvement they generally look like they are still balding especially in the front. I guess with what we have now you just have to be thankful for anything

----------


## bananana

> Maybe my standards are too high, but I dont see that much improvement they generally look like they are still balding especially in the front. I guess with what we have now you just have to be thankful for anything


 If this is not impressive to you, I really think you should reexamine your expectations from MPB healing procedures. At least for 21st century.

----------


## doke

does anyone know are any drugs involved or is it totally natural product?

----------


## 25 going on 65

> If this is not impressive to you, I really think you should reexamine your expectations from MPB healing procedures. At least for 21st century.


 It is a start but not revolutionary.....in the before pic he clearly has viable hair all the way to the center of his crown. If he was slick bald I would be shocked at the result but tbh this could be done by using AA's + minox
Also the pic is tiny & I can not see if his hair length is the same

----------


## TwoInchCircle

Man, some of you guys' standards are way too high. Even if all this thing did was halt hair loss with zero side effects, that's a game changer. Yes, FIN can stop hairloss, but the side effects are real and many members on here can confirm that. According to what we know, this has NO SIDES. That means a preventative treatment for future balders and an effective treatment for lower norwoods. And if they're not satisfied with their regrowth, they can always supplement with a traditional transplant--which are only getting more and more effective as time passes--or another growth stimulant. If that's not a game changer, I don't know what is.

That said, I hope this isn't a scam.

----------


## DanWS

> Man, some of you guys' standards are way too high. Even if all this thing did was halt hair loss with zero side effects, that's a game changer. Yes, FIN can stop hairloss, but the side effects are real and many members on here can confirm that. According to what we know, this has NO SIDES. That means a preventative treatment for future balders and an effective treatment for lower norwoods. And if they're not satisfied with their regrowth, they can always supplement with a traditional transplant--which are only getting more and more effective as time passes--or another growth stimulant. If that's not a game changer, I don't know what is.
> 
> That said, I hope this isn't a scam.


 Indeed, these are the best and most professional looking photos of any MPB treatment I've ever seen. Looks like it can achieve significantly better results than fin, which is the best we currently have, in a much shorter time frame. What's more, it comes with zero side effects and should be affordable for us all. It's not a miracle cure but if what we are seeing/hearing about Piloxll is true then it will undoubtedly be the best treatment for fighting baldness we have ever come across. All we can do now is wait to see if it's the real deal.... fingers crossed.

----------


## TravisB

OK, I've read here that it's going to be released in about 8 months.

But where?

Israel only or worldwide?

----------


## Kiwi

> OK, I've read here that it's going to be released in about 8 months.
> 
> But where?
> 
> Israel only or worldwide?


 If this isn't a reason to visit Israel I don't know what is. Foooooook you America and your FDA!!!!

----------


## chimera

> Maybe my standards are too high, but I dont see that much improvement they generally look like they are still balding especially in the front. I guess with what we have now you just have to be thankful for anything


 This may not work. But if it does, for norwoods 1 to 2.5 this would practically be a "cure"... well not really a cure but you get my drift. And I think that is very high for anyone standars

----------


## KJ1982

No one knows anything more about the release yet, *TravisB*.

All that we have to go on is this alleged planned release within the coming year, at around eight months from now. I've seen others claiming that it will be during 2014 without being any more specific than that.

Even if this device is genuine and limited to release strictly within Israel, I don't think it would be very long before those of us outside the country could source one from within.  :Smile:

----------


## burtandernie

> If this is not impressive to you, I really think you should reexamine your expectations from MPB healing procedures. At least for 21st century.


 Part of my skepticism is that first picture the guy has a lot of hair in that bald area its just really small and the second picture its a lot longer which makes it deceptively look as if he grew all that hair. Really its just longer and you cant tell how much new hair is really growing there, but it looks better longer I guess
If that was all new hair growing on that complete bald spot I would admit that is impressive. I would still argue the front is the most important and results for everything seem to be weak there.

----------


## burtandernie

Personally I am more hype for something like CB 03 01 or some powerful topical AA. I just want to keep hair without fin.

----------


## locke999

8 months could turn into 2 years and then 5 years, you guys know how it is.

At this point, if you can take fin then take it. If you can't then learn to deal with hair loss, don't let it take over your life as if you lost a limb or anything. It is not that debilitating.

----------


## hellouser

> Part of my skepticism is that first picture the guy has a lot of hair in that bald area its just really small and the second picture its a lot longer which makes it deceptively look as if he grew all that hair. Really its just longer and you cant tell how much new hair is really growing there, but it looks better longer I guess
> If that was all new hair growing on that complete bald spot I would admit that is impressive. I would still argue the front is the most important and results for everything seem to be weak there.


 Small photo? Click on it. I think you're looking at the thumbnail. Otherwise, head on over to Hair Loss Talk and have a look at the large photos there... there are MANY.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

I hope that this is the real deal.

Will use this, get a hair transplant (to restore my NW1) and move on with my life.

Does anyone know when this will be released?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Small photo? Click on it. I think you're looking at the thumbnail. Otherwise, head on over to Hair Loss Talk and have a look at the large photos there... there are MANY.


 There is clear regrowth in the photographs, granted some photos are not as bright then others, but you can clearly see more hair in areas which were slick bald.

----------


## bananana

Guys, 

there will be opposing opinions now, but I would like that we refrain ourselves from clogging this topic with countless "it's the cure/it's not the cure" posts. 

Please try to post only when we have some new info/pics or something important on the subject. I wouldn't want this to turn into another nigam thread.  :Smile: 

Anyways, I wish us all the best in the new year, I have a feeling this one could be the best so far!

----------


## doke

now everyone of us gets excited about a new hair loss natural or drug that comes along and if they have pics even more but does anyone remember stemcelex that was a few years ago and we all got into that and it turned out to be a scam now im not saying pil is but the isr technion piliel turned out to be another hype that did not do anything for mpb.
Now ru58841 has had its followers since rousell in france trialed it and everyone for many years wanted to get on it it was said b y some to be the mother of all antiandrogens but was non systemic and well tolerated and now people can get it from kane and also a ready mixed version from mpb treatments that is in kb solution and stable for six months people are looking for other so called cures.
I have had these hypes about products since i started losing my hair back in the 80s and thats a long time ago?and i have spent a load of money on some of these things but never got any regrowth exceipt on minoxidil and progestorone in the early stages of my mpb and then when i heard about ru and some started getting hold of it and getting good results thats what i wanted to try and in the early days there was some stability and quality issues but we can use it now.
I hope that pgd2 and cb and oc does work but at this time more are still getting results on ru.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> now everyone of us gets excited about a new hair loss natural or drug that comes along and if they have pics even more but does anyone remember stemcelex that was a few years ago and we all got into that and it turned out to be a scam now im not saying pil is but the isr technion piliel turned out to be another hype that did not do anything for mpb.
> Now ru58841 has had its followers since rousell in france trialed it and everyone for many years wanted to get on it it was said b y some to be the mother of all antiandrogens but was non systemic and well tolerated and now people can get it from kane and also a ready mixed version from mpb treatments that is in kb solution and stable for six months people are looking for other so called cures.
> I have had these hypes about products since i started losing my hair back in the 80s and thats a long time ago?and i have spent a load of money on some of these things but never got any regrowth exceipt on minoxidil and progestorone in the early stages of my mpb and then when i heard about ru and some started getting hold of it and getting good results thats what i wanted to try and in the early days there was some stability and quality issues but we can use it now.
> I hope that pgd2 and cb and oc does work but at this time more are still getting results on ru.


 The pics are fake

----------


## doke

Im not sure if antiandrogens are any good in later stage of mpb ie:shiny bald but there is talk by cotsalaris that hairs can still be regrown on shiny heads as they never die but thats the product many of us want and ru may still help some but like all the drugs they seem to give up after a year or more and many still get bad sheds inbetween so is psi which is hard to get hold of stable and pgd2 the answer or cure even if it is somehave bought the oc and pg and it has not worked and thats our problem we do not know the correct dose delivery and may have to have someway to force it into the scalp skin would that be by injecting or some wounding as in scalp roller so at this time mpb still sucks and is winning.
Are we wasting money or even damaging our health by buying experimental drugs not yet tested for safety in humans we might be and thats where this disorder makes us desporate to try anything and im guilty of that.

----------


## doke

by the way the israel piliel that really regrew hair had growth factors in it which were insulin,hgh and thyroxine and these were removed from osmotics fns formula and they say these growth factors did not help in hair loss well the original formula did work so why remove them ingredience it maybe that the product could not be sold due to the fda any thoughts guys.
I wish we could get the prof  lindenbraums gel formula.

----------


## Arashi

> does anyone remember stemcelex that was a few years ago and we all got into that and it turned out to be a scam now im not saying pil is but the isr technion piliel turned out to be another hype that did not do anything for mpb.


 Hasn't it been always like that ? Without a doubt the hairloss industry is the the most heavy invested snakeoil salesmen industry in the world. Regardless of what it is, chances are just small that a new therapy/med/treatment is real.

Regarding Pilox I'm too very skeptical. Of course it might be for real but the whole thing smells a bit weird. Like, a pilogics representative goes to a hairdresser with a book full of result photo's for a product that's in prototype stage and almost a year from being released. So on the one hand there's all this 'hush hush' and on the other hand there's a book already with results photo's that pilogic representatives show to anyone who's interested. That just seems odd. Why is there a book in the first place, what's the goal of it and why does a representative take it to a local hairdresser and show it to anyone who cares, including clients ?

 And then Yoram joins the forums but refuses to answer any questions regarding the mode of action, how this thing is supposed to grow hair, but only says stuff about how good it works... That's ok but if he refuses to talk about how it works, then what's the use of joining the forums, other than creating a big sales show. It all strikes me as the creation of one big hype.

Of course I might be wrong and Yoram should be treated with respect on the forums until we have evidence, but honestly I think the odds are dim that there's something real here.

----------


## Arashi

BTW, I have a feeling it's going to be a product like this: http://www.igrowlaser.com/results/ even the result photo's look similar.

Problem is, laserhelmets dont work  ...

----------


## lilpauly

> Hasn't it been always like that ? Without a doubt the hairloss industry is the the most heavy invested snakeoil salesmen industry in the world. Regardless of what it is, chances are just small that a new therapy/med/treatment is real.
> 
> Regarding Pilox I'm too very skeptical. Of course it might be for real but the whole thing smells a bit weird. Like, a pilogics representative goes to a hairdresser with a book full of result photo's for a product that's in prototype stage and almost a year from being released. So on the one hand there's all this 'hush hush' and on the other hand there's a book already with results photo's that pilogic representatives show to anyone who's interested. That just seems odd. Why is there a book in the first place, what's the goal of it and why does a representative take it to a local hairdresser and show it to anyone who cares, including clients ?
> 
>  And then Yoram joins the forums but refuses to answer any questions regarding the mode of action, how this thing is supposed to grow hair, but only says stuff about how good it works... That's ok but if he refuses to talk about how it works, then what's the use of joining the forums, other than creating a big sales show. It all strikes me as the creation of one big hype.
> 
> Of course I might be wrong and Yoram should be treated with respect on the forums until we have evidence, but honestly I think the odds are dim that there's something real here.


 arashi i undterstand . u fail to mention that this item is not for sale. u fail to mention that israeli are trying this device for free. he is sharing as much info as he can .

----------


## hellouser

> BTW, I have a feeling it's going to be a product like this: http://www.igrowlaser.com/results/ even the result photo's look similar.
> 
> Problem is, laserhelmets dont work  ...


 The results photos from PiloxII look way better than the ones from the use of a helmet.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> arashi i undterstand . u fail to mention that this item is not for sale. u fail to mention that israeli are trying this device for free. he is sharing as much info as he can .


 +1

Stop scaring the guy away arashi. If it doesn't work we'll know soon enough...without you scaring away our only source of information.

----------


## doke

actually i own an igrow helmet and only been using a month and my hair is in a lot better condition then when i started i had good results from hairmax but the helmet im going to keep on using and its easy to use.
I am really happy that i also got it for £295 so never payed full price i will keep you guys updated but as fda passed hairmax and igrow there is certainly a benefit for me in using lasers.

----------


## Thinning87

> Hasn't it been always like that ? Without a doubt the hairloss industry is the the most heavy invested snakeoil salesmen industry in the world. Regardless of what it is, chances are just small that a new therapy/med/treatment is real.
> 
> Regarding Pilox I'm too very skeptical. Of course it might be for real but the whole thing smells a bit weird. Like, a pilogics representative goes to a hairdresser with a book full of result photo's for a product that's in prototype stage and almost a year from being released. So on the one hand there's all this 'hush hush' and on the other hand there's a book already with results photo's that pilogic representatives show to anyone who's interested. That just seems odd. Why is there a book in the first place, what's the goal of it and why does a representative take it to a local hairdresser and show it to anyone who cares, including clients ?
> 
>  And then Yoram joins the forums but refuses to answer any questions regarding the mode of action, how this thing is supposed to grow hair, but only says stuff about how good it works... That's ok but if he refuses to talk about how it works, then what's the use of joining the forums, other than creating a big sales show. It all strikes me as the creation of one big hype.
> 
> Of course I might be wrong and Yoram should be treated with respect on the forums until we have evidence, but honestly I think the odds are dim that there's something real here.


 If it looks like a scam, has no credible story behind it like a scam, and seems to easily regrew most of your hair like a scam, then it is a .......

----------


## Thinning87

> arashi i undterstand . u fail to mention that this item is not for sale. u fail to mention that israeli are trying this device for free. he is sharing as much info as he can .


 Hahahhahah

He fails to mention the item is not for sale YET

----------


## lilpauly

> Hahahhahah
> 
> He fails to mention the item is not for sale YET


 people are trialing it now for FREE!!!

----------


## chimera

> Hahahhahah
> 
> He fails to mention the item is not for sale YET


 I think he undestands that, and what he is trying to say is, how often does scammers let people trial their product for free?... yeah, I know it has happend before, but it is still rare...

Many scammers (keratene, trx, follexen, etc) work knowing that their products will be short lived, they are after the big quick cash, which they know will irremediable stop after people have had enought time to prove it's lack of efficiency. But by letting other people trying it before, the guys from piloxll won't have the same licenses...

Of course... that is just *assuming* that those trial are not a scam too...

----------


## Arashi

> Many scammers (keratene, trx, follexen, etc) work knowing that their products will be short lived, they are after the big quick cash, which they know will irremediable stop after people have had enought time to prove it's lack of efficiency.


 This is exactly the core of the matter. Hence, IF (!) Pilox were scammers, they'd start pumping their product way before it was available. Then when it comes out, they maximized the amount of people buying it and that's what it's all about, selling as many products as quickly as possible before people realize it doesn't work.

About the trials, not sure what to think of that, this might indeed be a positive sign ...

----------


## chimera

> This is exactly the core of the matter. Hence, IF (!) Pilox were scammers, they'd start pumping their product way before it was available. Then when it comes out, they maximized the amount of people buying it and that's what it's all about, selling as many products as quickly as possible before people realize it doesn't work.


 Good point I guess...

----------


## bananana

As I said this morning, we should all refrain from comments until new info comes in. Pls stop with the speculation, the truth is these are the best mpb related photos ever seen, and that gives me hope. 

You cant possibly compare this to nigam or laser helmets photos.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> This is exactly the core of the matter. Hence, IF (!) Pilox were scammers, they'd start pumping their product way before it was available. Then when it comes out, they maximized the amount of people buying it and that's what it's all about, selling as many products as quickly as possible before people realize it doesn't work.
> 
> About the trials, not sure what to think of that, this might indeed be a positive sign ...


 
Thats the same strategy whether they are scammers or not.

Yoram is publishing in a peer reviewed journal and seems pretty honest. He also is taking the protocol of proving his efficacy very seriously.  Everything looks decent so far.

Just please don't scare the guy away. Its not often we get to communicate eith people like this.

----------


## gainspotter

I'm thinking about the full possibilities of this device (if it works)

It is obviously using regeneration through wounding somehow, and it is tailored for hairloss but in time what's to say they can't make a device that works the same for skin regeneration. 
Granted, they would have to change a few things but people already dermaroll for acne with modest results so this, if all goes well could have many uses.

Who knows, I could end up getting I.D'd again lol

----------


## Thinning87

> I think he undestands that, and what he is trying to say is, how often does scammers let people trial their product for free?... yeah, I know it has happend before, but it is still rare...
> 
> ..


 Wow you know even if they do ever find the cure hair won't do it alone you also need a brain

----------


## chimera

> Wow you know even if they do ever find the cure hair won't do it alone you also need a brain


 ... Yeah... I went full retard there...

----------


## Dan26

this is not a court of law we reasopnable doubt and innocent till proven guilty, forget it! we require evidence it WORKS!

im hopeful but again the message to all sufferes, plan your future as if this does not work and dont part with your hard earned $$ until we know it works

----------


## BDDFreak

They're marketing scheme really does make me laugh (mostly cause it's working). As much as I hope this works, there's some red flags that no one can argue is a bit sketchy. For one, the initial hair salon story of how vraf initially got ahold of the result pictures sounds too much like a fairy tale (not saying he's lying, just how it looks like), and when he did share the pictures why'd he not show us all of them right away. Why did he hold off on those recently leaked pictures. Why are the inventors allowing him to slowly leak information and actually giving him info to leak. You'd think a product that was being released in 8 months deserves at least a small press release or some direct acknowledgment from either Technion (if they are actually involved) or the inventors them selves. Slowly having an anonymous poster on hair loss forums to relay information just seems unprofessional. Lastly I find it really odd they would be willing to share when the product will be released but keep other important information in the dark, such as info on clinical trials (weather it even needs it or not). I can't help but be excited but I probably shouldn't be. There isn't even any evidence those trialists in the pictures are a result of piloxll and not some other drug or procedure.

----------


## KJ1982

> Yoram is publishing in a peer reviewed journal and seems pretty honest. He also is taking the protocol of proving his efficacy very seriously.


 I know that this is kinda stating the obvious, but this is what's going to make all the difference so far as I'm concerned.

If these alleged findings are, as you mention, published in a peer reviewed publication and prove to be positive then, well... Where do I sign up?!  :Big Grin: 

I don't suppose that you've any more information as to which journal this may be and when to expect any further developments on this front, *NeedHairASAP*?

----------


## Parsia

> They're marketing scheme really does make me laugh (mostly cause it's working). As much as I hope this works, there's some red flags that no one can argue is a bit sketchy. For one, the initial hair salon story of how vraf initially got ahold of the result pictures sounds too much like a fairy tale (not saying he's lying, just how it looks like), and when he did share the pictures why'd he not show us all of them right away. Why did he hold off on those recently leaked pictures. Why are the inventors allowing him to slowly leak information and actually giving him info to leak. You'd think a product that was being released in 8 months deserves at least a small press release or some direct acknowledgment from either Technion (if they are actually involved) or the inventors them selves. Slowly having an anonymous poster on hair loss forums to relay information just seems unprofessional. Lastly I find it really odd they would be willing to share when the product will be released but keep other important information in the dark, such as info on clinical trials (weather it even needs it or not). I can't help but be excited but I probably shouldn't be. There isn't even any evidence those trialists in the pictures are a result of piloxll and not some other drug or procedure.


 Allright , I read many post about this new treatment and If you ask my opinion I would say hey dude! this is marketing ! this product would be for sale , so they need to keep on marketing ! It doesn't mean they are scam!
If they didn't release all of their pictures it doesn't necessarily mean they want to sell us something which is scam and they want to empty our pockets!
they need to give us some information to encourage us to buy it when it comes to market but in the other hand they also need to keep the secret because they shouldn't allow other companies to steal their idea !! So I think we should be realistic about that.

----------


## Arashi

> Allright , I read many post about this new treatment and If you ask my opinion I would say hey dude! this is marketing ! this product would be for sale , so they need to keep on marketing ! It doesn't mean they are scam!
> If they didn't release all of their pictures it doesn't necessarily mean they want to sell us something which is scam and they want to empty our pockets!
> they need to give us some information to encourage us to buy it when it comes to market but in the other hand they also need to keep the secret because they shouldn't allow other companies to steal their idea !! So I think we should be realistic about that.


 He brought up some very good points, which I brought up too. Regardless of whether they're scammers or not, at least there are several clear red flags here. That whole story of a pilogics representative going to a hairdresser with an album full of result photo's for a product that's still in prototype stage, it just makes no sense. And the sole fact of a researcher joining a forum, that's a red flag by itself in my opinion, and even more so if he doesn't want to talk about how it works, but only about how good the product is. 

Of course, it doesn't mean they're not for real, there might actually be something here and I'll refrain from posting criticism on SAGA, where Yoram posts, I'll post it here instead  :Wink: 

Of course I also hope it's for real, let that be clear and there's no sign of any fraudulent behaviour at this point at all.

----------


## Kiwi

> He brought up some very good points, which I brought up too. Regardless of whether they're scammers or not, at least there are several clear red flags here. That whole story of a pilogics representative going to a hairdresser with an album full of result photo's for a product that's still in prototype stage, it just makes no sense. And the sole fact of a researcher joining a forum, that's a red flag by itself in my opinion, and even more so if he doesn't want to talk about how it works, but only about how good the product is. 
> 
> Of course, it doesn't mean they're not for real, there might actually be something here and I'll refrain from posting criticism on SAGA, where Yoram posts, I'll post it here instead 
> 
> Of course I also hope it's for real, let that be clear and there's no sign of any fraudulent behaviour at this point at all.


 Basically it's dermarolling. And PRP. On steroids. At least by the sounds of it. 

Fingers crossed.

----------


## BDDFreak

> Allright , I read many post about this new treatment and If you ask my opinion I would say hey dude! this is marketing ! this product would be for sale , so they need to keep on marketing ! It doesn't mean they are scam!
> If they didn't release all of their pictures it doesn't necessarily mean they want to sell us something which is scam and they want to empty our pockets!
> they need to give us some information to encourage us to buy it when it comes to market but in the other hand they also need to keep the secret because they shouldn't allow other companies to steal their idea !! So I think we should be realistic about that.


     I'm not exactly saying they are a scam, just that they're marketing ploy has some flaws. And these flaws are easily picked out by those that take a step back and inspect what is on the table with no bias. The clear conclusion is to be a bit cautious, that's all I'm saying. They have accomplished what they set out to do however which is get ppl to talk about their product. If vraf is in on the marketing then him specifically saying he is in no way a representative or spokesperson for pillogics seems sketchy. I'm not exactly buying the whole thing about not sharing info because someone will steal it either. They have patents. It is just weird how histogen and replicel can share their procedures (atleast better than piloxl can) and their products are still a couple years away. If they want ppl to be actually excited they should get a peer reviewed journal published with those same results (which I hear they're working on) but until they do, I recommend everybody stays cautious). With that said if this is the real deal then we'll find out soon enough.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> Basically it's dermarolling. And PRP. On steroids. At least by the sounds of it. 
> 
> Fingers crossed.


 No. And No. it doesnt micro needle anymore. And it is nothing like PRP.

----------


## Parsia

> He brought up some very good points, which I brought up too. Regardless of whether they're scammers or not, at least there are several clear red flags here. That whole story of a pilogics representative going to a hairdresser with an album full of result photo's for a product that's still in prototype stage, it just makes no sense. And the sole fact of a researcher joining a forum, that's a red flag by itself in my opinion, and even more so if he doesn't want to talk about how it works, but only about how good the product is. 
> 
> Of course, it doesn't mean they're not for real, there might actually be something here and I'll refrain from posting criticism on SAGA, where Yoram posts, I'll post it here instead 
> 
> Of course I also hope it's for real, let that be clear and there's no sign of any fraudulent behaviour at this point at all.


 -------------------------------------

Ok , I got what you mean Arashi , yeah I agree the hairdresser idea looks 
a little wired , You know what? Since we are really lose our hopes after 12
years which FDA did not approve any product so maybe we want to still  keep our hopes high!! But I understand there should be different view points .
I  also have read many posts from you before too. Is you're name Arash? Are you persian? just curious man !

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Basically it's dermarolling. And PRP. On steroids. At least by the sounds of it. 
> 
> Fingers crossed.


 It's current version doesn't sound much like dermarolling-- but I guess works off of the same principles. There is apparently no wounding happening in the traditional sense.

@Arashi,

Desmond has a good post explaining how it is not uncommon, and really the norm, for (real) researchers to keep their research very private up until it's published-- for both patent reasons, business reasons, and efficacy reasons. 

So it's not strange, and maybe even a good sign, that the doctor isn't divulging too much just yet. I say this because it may indicate he is real, and I don't think he's trying to hide it as he has indicated that he will be submitting an article to a  peer-reviewed journal shortly (when's the last time a snake oil salesmen did this?)

That being said, the hair salon thing is somewhat strange, but not completely unimaginable. 

I just can't imagine these guys spent 5 years and $5M+ patenting and making multiple prototypes (of which are given to trialists for free) all to be running a snake oil sale..... that just seems like a conspiracy theory when considered in the face of all the time and money being invested

Can Snake oil be 120% ruled out as of today? No. But in my mind it seems unlikely it's a snake oil-- at this point, I'm more interested in the efficacy.

----------


## BDDFreak

Is there a source for that 5 million figure for patenting? I see that figure being thrown around but I never saw that as a reasonable figure. According to this it's no where near as much and I'm inclined to beleive it's more in the ball park of a couple thousand just because I know of individuals with parents who could no way afford to patent anything if it cost a couple mill lmao. I'm mostly asking out of curiosity, I'm not a lawyer so maybe someone can enlighten me. 

http://patentfile.org/howmuchdoesitcosttopatentanidea/

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Is there a source for that 5 million figure for patenting? I see that figure being thrown around but I never saw that as a reasonable figure. According to this it's no where near as much and I'm inclined to beleive it's more in the ball park of a couple thousand just because I know of individuals with parents who could no way afford to patent anything if it cost a couple mill lmao. I'm mostly asking out of curiosity, I'm not a lawyer so maybe someone can enlighten me. 
> 
> http://patentfile.org/howmuchdoesitcosttopatentanidea/


 
The $5M figure is what I was throwing around for the total project... they've *given away* almost 300 of these things at a 2k+ cost to them, plus hiring a team, plus filing multiple patents (way more expensive than on your link, especially for the number of claims they've filed and the complexity of the invention-- first hand experience with a single patent of less complexity costing $20K and still running), plus some money left over to give them a runway to make it to launch, plus some cash to launch maybe.

add all those investments with the time investment (beginning 6 years ago)

and you've got mounting evidence that this isn't snake oil.

AGAIN, this is all we have to go off of. I think we should stop calling this a scam until we know more. Nobody is calling it the end-all yet, but things look and sound interesting so far. 

I doubt that yoram appreciates random anonymous posters coming on here and calling him and his efforts a "obvious scam" with no real basis--- and then the same posters wonder why they've been secretive.

----------


## BDDFreak

> The $5M figure is what I was throwing around for the total project... they've *given away* almost 300 of these things at a 2k+ cost to them, plus hiring a team, plus filing multiple patents (way more expensive than on your link, especially for the number of claims they've filed and the complexity of the invention-- first hand experience with a single patent of less complexity costing $20K and still running), plus some money left over to give them a runway to make it to launch, plus some cash to launch maybe.
> 
> add all those investments with the time investment (beginning 6 years ago)
> 
> and you've got mounting evidence that this isn't snake oil.
> 
> AGAIN, this is all we have to go off of. I think we should stop calling this a scam until we know more. Nobody is calling it the end-all yet, but things look and sound interesting so far. Gm
> 
> I doubt that yoram appreciates random anonymous posters coming on here and calling him and his efforts a "obvious scam" with no real basis--- and then the same posters wonder why they've been secretive.


 Thanks for clearing that up. And I'm by no means claiming this is obvious sake oil. I'm just concerned of the efficacy and the red flags their marketing seems to raise. And do u happen to be part of the forums where Yoram posts? You sure do happen to know a lot about it and I trust you will share the progress as it comes along  :Smile:  ? I really hope with the new prototype they have more results with the temporal hair loss. They're prototype 2 seemed to tackle mostly crown and the diffused areas :/

----------


## Kiwi

> The $5M figure is what I was throwing around for the total project... they've *given away* almost 300 of these things at a 2k+ cost to them, plus hiring a team, plus filing multiple patents (way more expensive than on your link, especially for the number of claims they've filed and the complexity of the invention-- first hand experience with a single patent of less complexity costing $20K and still running), plus some money left over to give them a runway to make it to launch, plus some cash to launch maybe.
> 
> add all those investments with the time investment (beginning 6 years ago)
> 
> and you've got mounting evidence that this isn't snake oil.
> 
> AGAIN, this is all we have to go off of. I think we should stop calling this a scam until we know more. Nobody is calling it the end-all yet, but things look and sound interesting so far. 
> 
> I doubt that yoram appreciates random anonymous posters coming on here and calling him and his efforts a "obvious scam" with no real basis--- and then the same posters wonder why they've been secretive.


 Where is the proof they started 6 years ago?

----------


## BDDFreak

> Where is the proof they started 6 years ago?


 I believe the patent was filed 6 eyes ago.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

I don't have time to be updating you guys with new info, and to be verifying my or pilox's claims.

I dont work for pilox. and I dont work for kiwi.


so unfortunately you guys are going to have to do your own homework here on out.

----------


## Arashi

> I don't think he's trying to hide it as he has indicated that he will be submitting an article to a  peer-reviewed journal shortly (when's the last time a snake oil salesmen did this?)


 I must have missed that. What peer-reviewed journal will he publish in ? And what's it about, is it an article about the science behind it ? Or is it publication of the trial results ? And when will this happen ?

Remember how Dr Gho published an article, but I still don't understand why they even published it, since it's not even scientific, since nobody could replicate it (so by definition not scientific). 

I for one am not calling Yoram a scammer. There might be something real. But the feeling that it's just another dr Nigam is slowly creeping up on me. Look at those pictures vraf posted yesterday, they're screenshots of original pictures: recompressed, low resolution, wrong lighting. Why would Yoram want to have such bad pictures published ? Why not just publish the original ones ? If he's trying to prove his method works, he clearly doesn't understand how to prove things ... On the other hand, if he's trying to cheat on us, he does exactly what he should do.

Again, I'm not calling him a cheater/scammer. But things add up less and less ...

----------


## bigentries

> I must have missed that. What peer-reviewed journal will he publish in ? And what's it about, is it an article about the science behind it ? Or is it publication of the trial results ? And when will this happen ?
> 
> Remember how Dr Gho published an article, but I still don't understand why they even published it, since it's not even scientific, since nobody could replicate it (so by definition not scientific). 
> 
> I for one am not calling Yoram a scammer. There might be something real. But the feeling that it's just another dr Nigam is slowly creeping up on me. Look at those pictures vraf posted yesterday, they're screenshots of original pictures: recompressed, low resolution, wrong lighting. Why would Yoram want to have such bad pictures published ? Why not just publish the original ones ? If he's trying to prove his method works, he clearly doesn't understand how to prove things ... On the other hand, if he's trying to cheat on us, he does exactly what he should do.
> 
> Again, I'm not calling him a cheater/scammer. But things add up less and less ...


 It's amazing how scams come and go and the same people fall again by using the same logical fallacies

Like yourself, I'm not calling him a scammer (yet) but it's sad to see so much naive optimism and very little critical thinking. You would think that taking part in the full cycle of 2-3 scams in the last year some people would learn to keep themselves skeptic

----------


## Atum

If he's a scammer, why not give him a old fashion mob with pitchforks and torches?  :Smile:

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I must have missed that. What peer-reviewed journal will he publish in ? And what's it about, is it an article about the science behind it ? Or is it publication of the trial results ? And when will this happen ?
> 
> Remember how Dr Gho published an article, but I still don't understand why they even published it, since it's not even scientific, since nobody could replicate it (so by definition not scientific). 
> 
> I for one am not calling Yoram a scammer. There might be something real. But the feeling that it's just another dr Nigam is slowly creeping up on me. Look at those pictures vraf posted yesterday, they're screenshots of original pictures: recompressed, low resolution, wrong lighting. Why would Yoram want to have such bad pictures published ? Why not just publish the original ones ? If he's trying to prove his method works, he clearly doesn't understand how to prove things ... On the other hand, if he's trying to cheat on us, he does exactly what he should do.
> 
> Again, I'm not calling him a cheater/scammer. But things add up less and less ...


 

do your own homework. 

and stop insinuating he is a cheater/scammer and then being like "Im not saying he's a cheater or a scammer"

----------


## GuyFromUK

I really hope this isn't a scam but if it is a scam then it is important they know NOW that they will NOT make a profit.

TRX2 is viewed by many as being a scam. The company who make TRX2 is called Oxford Biolabs. If you do a company background search on Oxford Biolabs you can see that they have made a loss of £9000 in the last year

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/07...IOLABS-LIMITED


I think a lot of snake oil companies seem to think they will make millions. The fact is if your product does not work then you will be caught out by users on the hairloss forums and word will get around that your product does not work. After these companies have paid for their patents, website design costs, marketing costs, delivery costs etc then they will make a loss if their product doesn't work.


I hope this is a lesson for all these b.s. companies who think they are going to make millions selling a fake hairloss product. Be warned, if your product doesn't work then you will not make a profit so give up now and stop trying to fool us.

----------


## Jcm800

This is good news, re Biolabs. I've paid them quite a few hundred pounds - and was led up the garden path.

Glad hear they're struggling, that's welcome news.

----------


## BDDFreak

Death to all snake oil! Hopefully Yoram Benitah does publish that journal entry about piloxll soon so we can be optimistic with solid reasoning.

----------


## bananana

> do your own homework. 
> 
> and stop insinuating he is a cheater/scammer and then being like "Im not saying he's a cheater or a scammer"


 +1

----------


## Arashi

> do your own homework.


 Which translates to "I don't know".




> and stop insinuating he is a cheater/scammer and then being like "Im not saying he's a cheater or a scammer"


 I'm not insinuating anything. Just saying there are several red flags here, things that don't add up. At this point if I'd have to give it a quote, I'd say 70% chance of scam, 30% chance of something real. But I'm only going to call him a scammer when I'm 99% sure. At this point there's still a real chance that there's something real here.

----------


## Thinning@30

I too am thrilled to hear Oxford Biolabs isn't doing well.  Sadly, I disagree that scam products are destined to be unprofitable.  The snake oil sellers are experts at photo trickery, weasel words, and deceptive advertising, as well as staying one step ahead of the law.  Just type hair loss into any search engine and look at all the scam products that are still around.  Sometimes, the evil part of me thinks I could make a lot of money selling some useless hair loss product.

I hope it is correct that the developers of Pilox will be publishing findings in a respected peer-reviewed journal.  Of course, Nigam also promised us he would publish findings in a peer-reviewed journal and we're all still waiting on that...

Arashi, I share your concerns about the Pilox photos that have been posted to the forums.  On the other hand, the Pilox photos are still better than 99.0% of the photos I've seen displayed by hair transplant doctors and other snake oil companies as far as controlling for hair length and angle.  Also on the plus side, they do seem to be going about things in a much more methodical way than Nigam ever did.  It sounds like they're not accepting trialists who use other hair loss products and there is talk about using a trichoscan device.  We really need to see photos in combination with objective measures, hair counts, diameter measurements, etc., or at least something that would be very hard to fake, such as videos of patients with hair growing in places where before there were just slick bald patches of skin.

----------


## robodoc

> now everyone of us gets excited about a new hair loss natural or drug that comes along and if they have pics even more but does anyone remember stemcelex that was a few years ago and we all got into that and it turned out to be a scam now im not saying pil is but the isr technion piliel turned out to be another hype that did not do anything for mpb.
> Now ru58841 has had its followers since rousell in france trialed it and everyone for many years wanted to get on it it was said b y some to be the mother of all antiandrogens but was non systemic and well tolerated and now people can get it from kane and also a ready mixed version from mpb treatments that is in kb solution and stable for six months people are looking for other so called cures.
> I have had these hypes about products since i started losing my hair back in the 80s and thats a long time ago?and i have spent a load of money on some of these things but never got any regrowth exceipt on minoxidil and progestorone in the early stages of my mpb and then when i heard about ru and some started getting hold of it and getting good results thats what i wanted to try and in the early days there was some stability and quality issues but we can use it now.
> I hope that pgd2 and cb and oc does work but at this time more are still getting results on ru.


 ARE you really commenting or are your comments really trying to sell RU and the other experimental crap?  These "clever" posters like to promote any way they can if you read other blogs.  Next time you post leave the references, may you make, to PRODUCTS you may have an interest in.  Thanks from all.

----------


## robodoc

> This is exactly the core of the matter. Hence, IF (!) Pilox were scammers, they'd start pumping their product way before it was available. Then when it comes out, they maximized the amount of people buying it and that's what it's all about, selling as many products as quickly as possible before people realize it doesn't work.
> 
> About the trials, not sure what to think of that, this might indeed be a positive sign ...


 Yes perfect marketing plan, keep pumping the product for a year or twp and get every balding guy in the world interested and when the product is finally up for sale, they sell to everyone for roughly 8 months and are rich.  
While the patents are curious, pics can be manipulated.  I would not get too excited about this product.  An apparatus they are selling?  I am smelling something. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## saintsfan92344

> I too am thrilled to hear Oxford Biolabs isn't doing well.  Sadly, I disagree that scam products are destined to be unprofitable.  The snake oil sellers are experts at photo trickery, weasel words, and deceptive advertising, as well as staying one step ahead of the law.  Just type hair loss into any search engine and look at all the scam products that are still around.  Sometimes, the evil part of me thinks I could make a lot of money selling some useless hair loss product.
> 
> I hope it is correct that the developers of Pilox will be publishing findings in a respected peer-reviewed journal.  Of course, Nigam also promised us he would publish findings in a peer-reviewed journal and we're all still waiting on that...
> 
> Arashi, I share your concerns about the Pilox photos that have been posted to the forums.  On the other hand, the Pilox photos are still better than 99.0&#37; of the photos I've seen displayed by hair transplant doctors and other snake oil companies as far as controlling for hair length and angle.  Also on the plus side, they do seem to be going about things in a much more methodical way than Nigam ever did.  It sounds like they're not accepting trialists who use other hair loss products and there is talk about using a trichoscan device.  We really need to see photos in combination with objective measures, hair counts, diameter measurements, etc., or at least something that would be very hard to fake, such as videos of patients with hair growing in places where before there were just slick bald patches of skin.


 +1

 To me this the best, closest possible cure, the minerals are a major puzzle piece, derma rolling/wounding is a solid piece, I am starting to think timing of adding the minerals especially copper, or certain peptides or ions to the wounding process is a major puzzle piece but we need the complete puzzle, book smarts aside common sense and experience with no monetary influence may bring the cure

----------


## bigentries

> do your own homework. 
> 
> and stop insinuating he is a cheater/scammer and then being like "Im not saying he's a cheater or a scammer"


 Dude, you've been here since 2011, I think you are getting to emotionally attached to this procedure.

Do you have any links where we can verify any of your claims?
I did my homework, but finding info about this is elusive
Where did you even got your info (figures, timelines) in the first place?

----------


## chimera

I was interested because this was supposed to work through wounding... but now they say it is not wounding, but works "in a similar way" to wounding... I wonder what the hell is that supposed to mean...

----------


## BDDFreak

> I was interested because this was supposed to work through wounding... but now they say it is not wounding, but works "in a similar way" to wounding... I wonder what the hell is that supposed to mean...


 I think they meant it's not traditional wounding. As in u probably won't draw blood like people do when derma-rolling. I believe it's still wounding though. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

----------


## hellouser

> I was interested because this was supposed to work through wounding... but now they say it is not wounding, but works "in a similar way" to wounding... I wonder what the hell is that supposed to mean...


 Everything has been speculation. Take the forum members' claims with a fine grain of salt.

----------


## Atum

> I think they meant it's not traditional wounding. As in u probably won't draw blood like people do when derma-rolling. I believe it's still wounding though. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


 Maybe they mean nano wounding?

----------


## robodoc

> Everything has been speculation. Take the forum members' claims with a fine grain of salt.


 
If they really want to promote their device, give it to someone we know in the forum.  Let that person report the results instead of giving away these devices to "other" people.  If it worked by the use of one of OUR people, they would become multi millionaires and have a very long line of orders I would think.

Who do you trust? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## bananana

> Yes perfect marketing plan, keep pumping the product for a year or twp and get every balding guy in the world interested and when the product is finally up for sale, they sell to everyone for roughly 8 months and are rich.  
> While the patents are curious, pics can be manipulated.  I would not get too excited about this product.  An apparatus they are selling?  I am smelling something.


 As I stated before, I'm a professional graphic designer with almost 10 year experience in the field and I can say I'm 99.9%  these photos are *NOT* photoshopped or manipulated in any other way. I've manipulated probably over 10000 photos in my career, so I'd say I'm pretty much an expert in the field.
Can you all now please drop the "fake images" false allegations?

As said before - the kind of results cant be HT, cant be photoshop or manipulation

----------


## bigentries

> As I stated before, I'm a professional graphic designer with almost 10 year experience in the field and I can say I'm 99.9%  these photos are *NOT* photoshopped or manipulated in any other way. I've manipulated probably over 10000 photos in my career, so I'd say I'm pretty much an expert in the field.
> Can you all now please drop the "fake images" false allegations?
> 
> As said before - the kind of results cant be HT, cant be photoshop or manipulation


 Seriously? The only pics are low resolution compressed JPGs, some of them from a second take (pictures of low resolution printed material).
How can you judge then they are not photoshopped?

----------


## hellouser

> As I stated before, I'm a professional graphic designer with almost 10 year experience in the field and I can say I'm 99.9&#37;  these photos are *NOT* photoshopped or manipulated in any other way. I've manipulated probably over 10000 photos in my career, so I'd say I'm pretty much an expert in the field.
> Can you all now please drop the "fake images" false allegations?
> 
> As said before - the kind of results cant be HT, cant be photoshop or manipulation


 I'm a graphic designer of over 10 years as well and I'm going to VALIDATE your claim.

These photographs are NOT photoshop, and I'll say that with the same 99.9% certainty.

Nice to see another designer on the forums!  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> Seriously? The only pics are low resolution compressed JPGs, some of them from a second take (pictures of low resolution printed material).


 You're negating the words of a graphic designer with your assumption that the photos are low resolution only to ask how they are not photoshopped?

Thats a new one.




> How can you judge then they are not photoshopped?


 Because of the extreme complexity and consistency of hair in the photographs. To photoshop SO many pictures would require a ridiculous amount of work to get THAT kind of perfection. I can't see any use of tools used with photoshop from those pictures. Typically the clone tool is used to patch areas, but thats done only by taking areas from other parts of the photograph... but this would be next to impossible with the results in the after photos.

This is exactly why I said that these are easily the BEST photographs I've ever seen and with those kind of results too.

There may be a larger version of this photograph, but this is definitely NOT photoshopped:

----------


## bananana

> I'm a graphic designer of over 10 years as well and I'm going to VALIDATE your claim.
> 
> These photographs are NOT photoshop, and I'll say that with the same 99.9% certainty.
> 
> Nice to see another designer on the forums!


 Cheers mate, vice versa!  :Smile: 

@bigentries, 
photos look quite good, they're not overcompressed or anything, they're actually bigger and better than most of MPB related photos anywhere, they have exif data, which no MPB photo I've seen ever had!

I've carefully looked at pattern in which the hair grows, I WOULD see any traces of photoshop, my eye is very trained for that, because I'm usually the one doing all sorts of clone stamps, healing brush, liquify and various other effects in a professional manner. 

Long story shot - 99.9% sure there is not any kind of photo manipulation in effect here.

End of discussion (about this) for me.

Thank you

----------


## bigentries

> You're negating the words of a graphic designer with your assumption that the photos are low resolution only to ask how they are not photoshopped?
> 
> Thats a new one.
> 
> 
> 
> Because of the extreme complexity and consistency of hair in the photographs. To photoshop SO many pictures would require a ridiculous amount of work to get THAT kind of perfection. I can't see any use of tools used with photoshop from those pictures. Typically the clone tool is used to patch areas, but thats done only by taking areas from other parts of the photograph... but this would be next to impossible with the results in the after photos.
> 
> This is exactly why I said that these are easily the BEST photographs I've ever seen and with those kind of results too.
> ...


 
Again, the PPI resolution is ridicolously low, it's a compressed JPG, and worst, it's not even the original pic, it's a picture of a printed material!

Of course you can't see any signs of a cloning tool. It would be like me taking a picture of a Playboy magazine and ask you to point clear signs of photoshop use

You are getting to emotionally attached again hellouser, remember how many things you fell for last year

----------


## hellouser

> Again, the PPI resolution is ridicolously low, it's a compressed JPG, and worst, it's not even the original pic, it's a picture of a printed material!


 In regards to the image displayed HERE in the forum, the PPI of that isn't really important. I can spot fakes from a mile away, and the pictures in the book are outstanding and like I said, there are many. Going by that alone, the results look legit. But by that ALONE.

Also, the filename of the original photo (as is presented in the book) is in the IMG_1234.JPG format. This is the default name of all JPEGS used on many cameras. Also notice the resolution on the photos, it is about 5000px x 3400px (can't make it out). File size is over 5mb. Looks like original untouched photos, but its still *possible* they could be edited, but thats not likely the case.




> Of course you can't see any signs of a cloning tool. It would be like me taking a picture of a Playboy magazine and ask you to point clear signs of photoshop use


 Again, I can spot fakery from a mile away. I exposed Nigam's pictures in detail. Graphic design and use of photoshop has been part of my daily life for more than 10 years... every, single, day.




> You are getting to emotionally attached again hellouser, remember how many things you fell for last year


 Please don't spread lies like this. I never fell for anything and am not falling for Pilox either. I'm keeping a close on development but have no input on its validity as nobody knows. I am ONLY judging the photographs. In regards to the things you claim I fell for last year... what would those things be? Nigam?  Because that's basically all that was ever hyped up.. and I was *never* on the bandwagon.

----------


## bigentries

> You have no idea what the PPI of the original photo is. In regards to the image displayed HERE in the forum, the PPI of that isn't really important. I can spot fakes from a mile away, and the pictures in the book are outstanding and like I said, there are many. Going by that alone, the results look legit. But by that ALONE.


 Yes, I don't know the PPI of the original pic. That has nothing to do with it, the PPI of the printed material is small (it's printing a whole computer screen in a paper sheet) and the PPI of the picture you posted is even worst. Any signs of manipulation are completely obscured by this
Think about the "broken phone" game




> Again, I can spot fakery from a mile away. I exposed Nigam's pictures in detail. Graphic design and use of photoshop has been part of my daily life for more than 10 years... every, single, day.


 I don't see how being a graphic designer has anything to do with it. Do you manipulate pictures for a living? graphic design is very diverse.




> Please don't spread lies like this. I never fell for anything and am not falling for Pilox either. I'm keeping a close on development but have no input on its validity as nobody knows. I am ONLY judging the photographs. In regards to the things you claim I fell for last year... what would those things be? Nigam?  Because that's basically all that was ever hyped up.. and I was *never* on the bandwagon.


 You were clearly in the dermarolling bandwagon, I remember you were among the people that silenced any sort of skepticism, you have a tendency of doing that

----------


## hellouser

> Yes, I don't know the PPI of the original pic. That has nothing to do with it, the PPI of the printed material is small (it's printing a whole computer screen in a paper sheet) and the PPI of the picture you posted is even worst. Any signs of manipulation are completely obscured by this
> Think about the "broken phone" game


 I edited my response. The original printed photograph looks to be of a VERY high PPI (more than 5000x3000 pixels). That translates to more than 15mp, which you could print at 11x17 at around 300dpi, past what the human eye can see in pixel density. File size is 5mb, right on target for an image of that size (I'd know since I've owned a number of dSLR cameras and currently have THREE on hand).




> I don't see how being a graphic designer has anything to do with it. Do you manipulate pictures for a living? graphic design is very diverse.


 I'm going to assume you're NOT trolling with these questions, so I'll give you a serious answer (the questions are pretty laughable for people in my industry and actually borderline insult). But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your ignorance on the matter (no offense).

At my current job I am more or less the digital product manager. I fill a lot of roles for my position, anything from front end/back end development in HTML, CSS, Javascript, to video producting, editing in After Effects, studio photography, print materials, as well as design and illustration across the entire Adobe Creative Suite. I've got about 14 years under my belt, 3 years of college for design and my last three years in highschool focusing lots on fine art, media arts and communications technology, winning a number of awards in young talent competitions across, going as far being top 10 in my province. It's taken an incredible number of projects to get to where I am, and yes, a lot of it has included professional photography along with colour correction and photo editing both with Lightroom and Photoshop. I've posted a number of times on proper photography here in the forums, both in terms of subject lighting and camera settings. These things WILL affect how a photograph can be manipulated, there are a number of variables and its typically whats in focus and how much of an area you have to play with. Images with a strong bokeh (google the term) with a quick focus fall off will limit what you can do. But this is just ONE variable. Again, 10+ years in the industry, I can tell. I edit photographs all the time; colour corrections, cropping, removing blemishes, removing text, etc. I enjoy my field... a lot. I love everything that has to do with digital media, this is as much of a hobby as it is a job for me.

So, questioning my expertise with Photoshop after investing so much time in my field and helping people here with photography is a slap to the face.




> You were clearly in the dermarolling bandwagon, I remember you were among the people that silenced any sort of skepticism, you have a tendency of doing that


 I asked to do a community trial to validate the indian study and see if we can replicate the results, a la 'poor mans follica method'. Again, you're spreading lies about me. I never made any sure claims about dermarolling. Youre reaching pretty hard dude.

----------


## bigentries

So you are basically a webdesigner, you sounded like a professional photographer by the way you talk about manipulation. Try harder next time

----------


## hellouser

> So you are basically a webdesigner, you sounded like a professional photographer by the way you talk about manipulation. Try harder next time


 Looks like you read only one sentence of my reply. Please read again; everything next time.

----------


## Hicks

I'll send you guys to *** if you keep it up!

----------


## Kiwi

> So you are basically a webdesigner, you sounded like a professional photographer by the way you talk about manipulation. Try harder next time


 **** off dude. Nobody likes a noob with a big mouth.

----------


## Kiwi

I make games with HTML5 and JavaScript for a living.

----------


## szn

coding > photography.

----------


## Number47

The fact that we want to believe in this (i i include myself) shows our desperation. But honestly if you put our desperation aside, to believe that electronic devices like lazercomps, laser helmets, ion manipulators will bring our hair back is a joke. I don't care if these pictures are photoshopped or not, if they want to scam us they could put a bunch of people on propecia + minox and tell us this the result of the magical device.

I hear this guy Zoran or whatever his name is has been offering treatments for a long time now for patients. He could just use his photo album of his best responders to fin and minox and make us all think its a magical device that brings these results.

Point is enough people will buy it, the placebo effect will work for a while in reviews and it will be years till we say its crap just like the lazercomps which still sell no matter the lack of results.

----------


## Atum

There are pics of woman in there. And if I am not mistaken woman can't take fin. There is a chance it might work, so wait and see, everything is possible.

----------


## chimera

We don't have enough info to know if this product is real. We don't have enough info to know if this product is fake. Seriously, all we can do at this point is speculate. And that's fine I think. I try to see the good and the bad on things...

But damn, it seems that if you don't immediatly reject this thing then you are a sad man clinging deperately to whicheverer little hope you can chew out of this. Either that or then you are blindly emotianaly attached to it...

----------


## carvo

Hey guys,

Search any "yoram" or "benitah" at staff guideline of Technion University and see what happens...

http://www.admin.technion.ac.il/engtelbook/  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## BDDFreak

The pilogics team which is behind piloxll does seem to have Technion staff. Notably Dov Ingman and Erez Manor. 


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-2995734361.html

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Hey guys,
> 
> Search any "yoram" or "benitah" at staff guideline of Technion University and see what happens...
> 
> http://www.admin.technion.ac.il/engtelbook/


 I think you're confusing Yoram with the engineers in the patents. 

I could be wrong, but I believe it's the engineers of this device that are from Technion, not Yoram. 

Anybody else remember?

----------


## Thinning@30

> The fact that we want to believe in this (i i include myself) shows our desperation. But honestly if you put our desperation aside, to believe that electronic devices like lazercomps, laser helmets, ion manipulators will bring our hair back is a joke. I don't care if these pictures are photoshopped or not, if they want to scam us they could put a bunch of people on propecia + minox and tell us this the result of the magical device.
> 
> I hear this guy Zoran or whatever his name is has been offering treatments for a long time now for patients. He could just use his photo album of his best responders to fin and minox and make us all think its a magical device that brings these results.
> 
> Point is enough people will buy it, the placebo effect will work for a while in reviews and it will be years till we say its crap just like the lazercomps which still sell no matter the lack of results.


 Or better yet, put people in wigs and toupees and try pass that off as the results of the new product.  

This is why caution is so important and we should be extra wary of stuff that seems to come out of nowhere and is not going through the standard three phases of clinical trials.  I have been on this forum long enough to see several cycles of scam products, and I feel fortunate not to have succumbed to any of them yet.  I think the posts from skeptics are the most valuable, provided they outline their thought process rather than just subject everyone to a bunch of one line postings that are variations of "Definitely a scam.  Scam, scam, scam, etc!"

----------


## BDDFreak

I believe the 2 that have their names on the patent (Dov Ingma and Erez Manor)  are just engineers from Technion that probably helped create the instrument. They don't seem to have any background in the hair loss field specifically, but on the Technion website it's noted that Dov Ingman is a member of graduate studies in quality assurance and reliability which seems to be a plus lol.  http://tx.technion.ac.il/technion/qa...rs/ingman.html

----------


## hellouser

> I believe the 2 that have their names on the patent (Dov Ingma and Erez Manor)  are just engineers from Technion that probably helped create the instrument. They don't seem to have any background in the hair loss field specifically, but on the Technion website it's noted that Dov Ingman is a member of graduate studies in quality assurance and reliability which seems to be a plus lol.  http://tx.technion.ac.il/technion/qa...rs/ingman.html


 I wouldn't expect guys working on the device itself to know much about hair. The guy's are likely just asked by Yoram (or whichever doctor) to make the device according to his requirements doing what its supposed to for fighting hair loss, he's the one that came up with the science, not the production of the device, correct?

It'd be like assuming that Dr. Wesley's engineers for the Pilofocus device are also doctors with knowledge on hair loss.

----------


## BDDFreak

> I wouldn't expect guys working on the device itself to know much about hair. The guy's are likely just asked by Yoram (or whichever doctor) to make the device according to his requirements doing what its supposed to for fighting hair loss, he's the one that came up with the science, not the production of the device, correct?
> 
> It'd be like assuming that Dr. Wesley's engineers for the Pilofocus device are also doctors with knowledge on hair loss.


 I'm not questioning the method behind who comes up with the science or who actually invents the device. Like you said Yoram probably came up with the science and hired the Technion engineers to make the device. I was just trying to point out that there's where the connection with Technion comes from and that's about all. I'm sorry if I didnt explain my self properly.

----------


## bananana

Any news from vraf? Or someone more closely related to pilox?

I know this is a wait game, but I'm eager to find out new details...

----------


## cotto

> Any news from vraf? Or someone more closely related to pilox?
> 
> I know this is a wait game, but I'm eager to find out new details...


 yes, there were two forum members that were on the trials, and no more replys coming from those membres?
Shit i just need some new treatment to get an hair transplant and keep going

----------


## deuce

Does anyone know when we will get a better idea if this stuff works or comes out?

----------


## Atum

> Does anyone know when we will get a better idea if this stuff works or comes out?


 Last year in december they said around 8 months till it's released. So that makes it around august, although it's better to wait till further info pops up.

----------


## locke999

> Last year in december they said around 8 months till it's released. So that makes it around august, although it's better to wait till further info pops up.


 It seems unlikely to me that they would release something in 8 months. If those pictures weren't leaked on this forum, piloxii would be non-existent. They don't even have a website up, or tried in any way to get this product name out there.

Do they expect to release a product in 8 months without advertising about it ever? That is why I find it hard to believe that it will be released this year, of course that is, IF it is a real and working product.

----------


## UK_

8 months figure pulled out of someones ass.

This is going to end in misery as usual.

----------


## hellouser

> 8 months figure pulled out of someones ass.
> 
> This is going to end in misery as usual.


 Pass me that crystal ball, I got some lottery tickets I'd like to play.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> 8 months figure pulled out of someones ass.
> 
> This is going to end in misery as usual.


 It's actually straight from Yoram's mouth, but okay.

----------


## hellouser

> It's actually straight from Yoram's mouth, but okay.


 Ethered.

----------


## rdawg

lmao this is garbage

----------


## strife91

Why are people so skeptical ? There's no point in being overly optimistic or pessimistic about this. All we can do is cross our fingers , and maybe they want there device kept on the hush hush if it truly is a game changer? Once it comes out and if it works they won't need advertisement and all these big company's working at snail pace won't know what hit them

----------


## mmmcoffee

Though its pointless, being skeptical/pessimistic is a 100&#37; historically founded sentiment.

Especially with out of the blue, too good to be true things like this

----------


## Atum

If it works than I don't give a rats ass where it comes from.

----------


## Atum

> It seems unlikely to me that they would release something in 8 months. If those pictures weren't leaked on this forum, piloxii would be non-existent. They don't even have a website up, or tried in any way to get this product name out there.
> 
> Do they expect to release a product in 8 months without advertising about it ever? That is why I find it hard to believe that it will be released this year, of course that is, IF it is a real and working product.


 Like strife91 said, if it works, it will sell like hot cakes. No need for advertisement it will sell itself. Just look at Apple they have the smallest budget for advertisement, yet they had the biggest market share till last year.

----------


## hellouser

> Like strife91 said, if it works, it will sell like hot cakes. No need for advertisement it will sell itself. Just look at Apple they have the smallest budget for advertisement, yet they had the biggest market share till last year.


 Eh... Apple got to where it is through incredibly MASSIVE marketing about 10 years ago. Remember the iPod silhouette ads?

A better example would be Zara (the clothing store). They don't advertise AT ALL and as far as I know, they have never have. Their clothing also almost never has any branding (I've only once seen the logo visible when worn and it was a hat).

I do agree, it will sell like hotcakes if it works as well as it does from the photographs shown in the book. The hair loss community will be ALL OVER IT.

----------


## UK_

> It's actually straight from Yoram's mouth, but okay.


 And who is Yoram?  A Jedi Knight of Dr Nigam from planet Zod?

----------


## UK_

> Though its pointless, being skeptical/pessimistic is a 100&#37; historically founded sentiment.
> 
> Especially with out of the blue, too good to be true things like this


 Of course its bullshit, any pea brained mong knows this isnt going anywhere, there's nothing at the moment, Aderans has fallen which marks the end/failure of a massive literature of work into hair loss in its application to humans, now researchers have to start ALL over again with a whole new framework, take that through trials and see if it works.

You're looking at 20 years for a marketable product.

----------


## bigentries

> 2.I apologize if this has been asked, but are you in any FDA, or the israeli equivalent, type trials?
> Will this need to go through FDA/ or other similar programs?
> 
> 2. I am preparing all needs for clinical study, but what was done until now is only checking the device from all aspects. The "clients " are mostly friends, and friends of friends or relatives.


 This doesn't sounds right to me. Specially with the 8 months release speculation.

The pictures looks too good to be true. If anyone has seen vraf's progression, the amount of hair growth is realistic for 1.5 months, but only if he had hair there in the first place.
You are talking about places with no hair suddenly getting terminal hairs practically overnight.




> Why are people so skeptical ? There's no point in being overly optimistic or pessimistic about this. All we can do is cross our fingers , and maybe they want there device kept on the hush hush if it truly is a game changer? Once it comes out and if it works they won't need advertisement and all these big company's working at snail pace won't know what hit them


 You are confusing skepticism with pessimism
Being aware that fairies don't exist and calling their proponents charlatans doesn't make you pessimistic

----------


## cotto

> This doesn't sounds right to me. Specially with the 8 months release speculation.
> 
> The pictures looks too good to be true. If anyone has seen vraf's progression, the amount of hair growth is realistic for 1.5 months, but only if he had hair there in the first place.
> You are talking about places with no hair suddenly getting terminal hairs practically overnight.
> 
> 
> You are confusing skepticism with pessimism
> Being aware that fairies don't exist and calling their proponents charlatans doesn't make you pessimistic


 where we can see vrafs progress? why this guy stopped posting on here?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Here's an interesting question!
> 
> If regeneration is supposed to happen with Pilofocus.. what does it matter if we get a traditional hair transplant NOW? We're only MOVING hair from one area to the other... its not being destroyed. 
> 
> Couldn't we just harvest transplanted hair with Pilofocus in the recipient area and re-implant in surrounding areas and regenerate donor hair at the top/front thats originally been at the back of the head??


 What I dont get, you have guys like Dr Cole talking about donor regeneration from Acell for 2 years.

What is taking him so long to properly introduce his donor regeneration to the market?

I fear Pilofocus is going to share the same fate, a lot of smoke but no fire.

----------


## hellouser

> I fear Pilofocus is going to share the same fate, a lot of smoke but no fire.


 Which is why I keep saying that regeneration should be Dr. Wesley's TOP priority. If he doesn't have regeneration, he'd get a maximum of 3 visits from me. I'm NOT going to spend that much cash on three visits with ultimately limiting results. So he's NOT going to have me as a client this way. If he's got regeneration, I'll be able to get more visits with and ultimately stuff his pockets with a lot more of my money.

It's either all or nothing.

----------


## bigentries

> where we can see vrafs progress? why this guy stopped posting on here?


 Private forum, don't know if I can post them

I just had some free time and decided to look more into Pilogics

Someone at *** posted this site http://www.thickhair.ru/

That's it for me, I can't see how anyone can remain "open minded" when the guy Yoram seems shady at best, someone at *** who lives in Israel tried to talk to the offices of Pilogic and they didn't knew who they were, the place was a hair salon

I wonder what you make of that information hellouser, you've been very active in those threads but you seem to choose to ignore that information

----------


## hellouser

> Private forum, don't know if I can post them
> 
> I just had some free time and decided to look more into Pilogics
> 
> Someone at *** posted this site http://www.thickhair.ru/
> 
> That's it for me, I can't see how anyone can remain "open minded" when the guy Yoram seems shady at best, someone at *** who lives in Israel tried to talk to the offices of Pilogic and they didn't knew who they were, the place was a hair salon
> 
> I wonder what you make of that information hellouser, you've been very active in those threads but you seem to choose to ignore that information


 I chose to IGNORE the information? This is the first time I've seen it. This is the SECOND time that you've made claims about me that are false. Get your act together.

----------


## deuce

So it is a scam becuase a guy Yoham you do not know has a website in Hebrew that I am pretty sure no one understands.  He is involved with Piloxll, but how does this confirm it is a scam?  I know that it may be a longshot if this is legit, but it could really be something.  I am sick of all the negative people on here.  It really is a negative environment.

----------


## cotto

wow i just saw the news pics on *** and if they are true thats amazing!!! totally game changer.... too god to be true but if it is DAMMM we are saved!!!
We need to push this to the media, everybody need to know about it, im so scared that some corporation shut down the process because its really a cure, hair loss will be solved and a lot of enterprises will be in bancarrota after that, maybe they dont want piloxll to come to the market and pay lot of money to the people behind piloxll, same thing happened with Tesla and his ideas of free energy

----------


## lilpauly

The before and after photos are amazing .

----------


## huawei

> wow i just saw the news pics on *** and if they are true thats amazing!!! totally game changer.... too god to be true but if it is DAMMM we are saved!!!
> We need to push this to the media, everybody need to know about it, im so scared that some corporation shut down the process because its really a cure, hair loss will be solved and a lot of enterprises will be in bancarrota after that, maybe they dont want piloxll to come to the market and pay lot of money to the people behind piloxll, same thing happened with Tesla and his ideas of free energy


 yo what where?

----------


## cotto

> yo what where?


 sorry if didnt make sense, my english is quite bad!!

----------


## huawei

> sorry if didnt make sense, my english is quite bad!!


 That's fine, it made sense but where are these photos? Are they new?

----------


## bigentries

> I chose to IGNORE the information? This is the first time I've seen it. This is the SECOND time that you've made claims about me that are false. Get your act together.


 You are the third post in the thread at *** where this thing was posted. I have a hard time believing you didn't read it, considering your response there





> So it is a scam becuase a guy Yoham you do not know 
> has a website in Hebrew that I am pretty sure no one understands.  He is involved with Piloxll, but how does this confirm it is a scam?  I know that it may be a longshot if this is legit, but it could really be something.  I am sick of all the negative people on here.  It really is a negative environment.


 First, it's not Hebrew. It's russian. Second, yes you can read it, use google translate. Read the stuff about the "VIP package"

It is important because Yoram has a clinic called "Israel Hair Clinic" that according to some posters in *** is somewhat infamous. The clinic has branches in Russia

The treatment that Yoram has been describing at the private forum is very similar to the treatment described in the russian site

----------


## Pentarou

"Infamous"? How so?

Quite a worrying development.

----------


## bigentries

> "Infamous"? How so?
> 
> Quite a worrying development.


 Someone worried because his hair clinic sells proven snake oil, that doesn't worries me, I respect Rassman but he also has done poor ethical choices in the past

Apparently he is a "star doctor" in Israel, around the style of Gho and Nigam, which is what worries me the most personally

Also, a poster at *** talked to one of the addresses in the patent, they had no clue what he was talking about. One of Yoram supporters brushed it off as secrecy, but he later found out the place was a "hair salon". That finding and vraf's original story might be connected

A lot of things don't add up. Too bad there's a language barrier, it's difficult to find more information about this

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Someone worried because his hair clinic sells proven snake oil, that doesn't worries me, I respect Rassman but he also has done poor ethical choices in the past
> 
> Apparently he is a "star doctor" in Israel, around the style of Gho and Nigam, which is what worries me the most personally
> 
> Also, a poster at *** talked to one of the addresses in the patent, they had no clue what he was talking about. One of Yoram supporters brushed it off as secrecy, but he later found out the place was a "hair salon". That finding and vraf's original story might be connected
> 
> A lot of things don't add up. Too bad there's a language barrier, it's difficult to find more information about this


 
http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress...usions-mat.jpg


Yoram has been very open. Somebody has brought the website up. We'll see what he has to say. Until then......

----------


## DanWS

Ugh.... that site has just evaporated nearly all my hope for this now. It has charlatan written all over it, just like nigam. **** sake. Oh well... next.

----------


## BDDFreak

The only way I was ever gonna believe this, is if they had a journal published or a working product on shelves lol.

----------


## bananana

Again, speculations upon speculations.

Give it some time.

----------


## cotto

wtf i just translate the site in russian and they are offering the treatment already:

"Package "Home"
    Suitable for regions
    You get home kit and use it at home.
    Set is sufficient for 2-4 months of use .
    buy
    9999 rubles.
    Package "Complex "
    Suitable for Moscow
    Come 8 sessions 1 time per week .
    Using home kits for fixing effect.
    buy
    from 37 999 rub .
    Package «VIP»
    Suitable for Moscow
    Pass 2 16 treatments per week.
    Specialist coming to see you at your convenient time and place
    buy
    149 999 rubles"

I´ve  changed my mind, it looks as a nigamer....... so sad!!
Pics are in the other forum ***.
The full site translated by google:



Hair Restoration System
from Israel
Do you want to restore your hair , make them thicker
2 months , the salon or at home?
And all this without surgery and contraindications ?
Leave a request today and get free trial procedure
Time left to buy :
0
days
0
watch
0
minutes
0
seconds
84% noticed positive changes after treatment
Development Laboratory DR. M. BURSTEIN
15 years of experience in hair restoration
2 years of successful clinical trials
The system is certified in the Russian Federation
How are we going to restore hair?
You spend micro- needle therapy (micro - punctures in the scalp to 0.7 mm)
and then applied up special preparations for stimulating hair growth *
* Developer technology hair restoration physician triholog Yoram Benita (Israel)
How we are going to act ?

    You leave a request.
    Our operator binds
    with you and answers
    Your questions
    We analyze the state of
    Your hair.
    You do first
    free procedure .
    You are undergoing restoration .
    We record the result
    after the course.

    On all products
    are certified
    Possibility of treatment at home
    guarantee fair
    measurement result

Leave a request today
and get free trial procedure
5 major problems faced by people reshivshiesya on hair treatment .

    Some clinics hair is not very interested in the success of the treatment of the client. They are more focused on making money .
    Almost all standard procedures : Mesotherapy , plazmoterapiya , ointments, creams, shampoos .
    Competitors do not measured before and after. They often have to verbally convince the customer that their treatment worked.
    Some clinics pass procedure is expensive and not efficient enough .
    No possibility undergo treatment only at home.
    If treated using meso and plasma therapies , it is very painful.

Our version of the solutions to your problems
Yoram Benita
Yoram Benita
(Yoram Benitah)

    Technology from Israel.
    Company proizvodstel - Dr. M. Burstein works in the field of
    Natural cosmetics for over 25 years.
    We found the method that is
    the most effective among other methods .
    Technology developer hair restoration physician triholog
    Yoram Benita (Yoram Benitah).
    Founder of Israeli Hair Clinic -
    triholog leading international class.
    Without surgery and contraindications.
    Suitable for most cases of hair thinning .
    Lotion safe and hypoallergenic , and does not contain minoxidil hormones.
    We really want to restore your hair . You will notice that it will cost inexpensive.
    You pay for each procedure , and not for the entire course ( all 8 sessions 1 time per week ) .
    We give an objective picture .
    Measure hair density , thickness and their growth rate.
    It works.
    We are not afraid to measure results before and after treatment .
    86 % reported that their hair was much thicker after 8 treatments .
    Possibility of home treatment .
    In our treatment has rules by which a client can only be treated at home.
    If a client needs intensive restoration , the most frequent he would have come
    1 times a week for 2 months.

Feedback from our customers

    before After
    I have visited the most famous clinics in Moscow, but they were more concerned about making money than the result . In April 2012, I tried a new Israeli technology and in 2 months I felt the results ...
    Denis , 31, Moscow
    before After
    I did not think that I have something to be, because I am no longer a young girl. Hair comb became much smaller. All girlfriend noticed that my hair has become thicker. Thank you!
    Alla , 58, Moscow

So, your choice:

    Package "Home"
    Suitable for regions
    You get home kit and use it at home.
    Set is sufficient for 2-4 months of use .
    buy
    9999 rubles.
    Package "Complex "
    Suitable for Moscow
    Come 8 sessions 1 time per week .
    Using home kits for fixing effect.
    buy
    from 37 999 rub .
    Package «VIP»
    Suitable for Moscow
    Pass 2 16 treatments per week.
    Specialist coming to see you at your convenient time and place
    buy
    149 999 rubles.

Yoram Benita
technology developer
hair Restoration
doctor trichologist
Yoram Benita (Israel)
2009-2013 © thick hair
TIN 771602679628
OGRIP 304770000112328
Moscow, Large Novodmitrovskaya street, house 36 c12
Any questions? Call!
8499677 22 13
8 800 100 14 56
Request a call back
Leave a request today and get free trial procedure

----------


## porta

a lot of dumd guys here, the treatment in this russian website ITS NOT PILOX.

----------


## robodoc

> Ugh.... that site has just evaporated nearly all my hope for this now. It has charlatan written all over it, just like nigam. **** sake. Oh well... next.


 It could do something so I would not write it off yet but so many claim success we have to wait til the product is out and tested.  I am not affected by the claims.

----------


## UK_

LOLOL this is getting comical now.

Yoham the Jedi Warrior.

----------


## clarence

> LOLOL this is getting comical now.
> 
> Yoham the Jedi Warrior.


 YOU are comical, those reading the thread givin' you the "How old are you"-look

----------


## cotto

> a lot of dumd guys here, the treatment in this russian website ITS NOT PILOX.


 can you argument that please, mr. knowitall? I see it says is a microneedleing method so i supposed it is piloxll, but if you can defeat it isn´t better for me and all body here, so please do it!!

----------


## Kiwi

If it does turn out to be snake oil I think we need to leave an anonymous message to homeland security, give them the address in Isreal, and make them believe it's a Taliban strong hold and that they need to bomb the shit out of them!!!

----------


## Atum

+1 Kiwi
Maybe if you say it's a hezbollah network they will actually do it.  :Smile:

----------


## Arashi

> If it does turn out to be snake oil I think we need to leave an anonymous message to homeland security, give them the address in Isreal, and make them believe it's a Taliban strong hold and that they need to bomb the shit out of them!!!


 I'm getting more and more convinced it's a scam. Yoram got tons of questions regarding that Russian site, he totally ignored them ! When asked about the current treatments he said he didnt want to go into that because he thought it might come off as 'promotion'. He's involved with a clinic that sells snake oil and then that whole story about that booklet with photo's at the hairdresser ...

It's all just TOO weird, so many things not adding up ... Still can't say anything for certain, but it's all getting weirder and weirder ...

----------


## greatjob!

To me this looks like another example of people using keywords to drum up interest and sell a product. When Histogen and others started experimenting with growth factors, you saw all of these products coming out trying to capitalize on that by selling products containing "growth factors". Since Cots research and Follica's work I'm sure we are going to start to see things popping up using the keyword "wounding", which I think is what this product/treatment is. I mean from what I can gather from the info so far there isn't any actual wounding going on, so how do you wound without wounding? I guess it's some new magical wounding technique...

----------


## GuyFromUK

> a lot of dumd guys here, the treatment in this russian website ITS NOT PILOX.


 

It's interesting how this is the 1st post you have made on the forum. You have registered a BTT account to tell everyone they are dumb for not believing this product when it clearly is the same one. Do you possibly work for Yoram.

----------


## porta

> It's interesting how this is the 1st post you have made on the forum. You have registered a BTT account to tell everyone they are dumb for not believing this product when it clearly is the same one. Do you possibly work for Yoram.


 No, they are dumb to relate this "russian treatment" with pilox.

Read the patent and you'll find that pilox has absolutely nothing with a dermapen device.

----------


## DanWS

> No, they are dumb to relate this "russian treatment" with pilox.
> 
> Read the patent and you'll find that pilox has absolutely nothing with a dermapen device.


 Oh intelligent one, please do forgive us mere Neanderthals for being completely unreasonable in adding two and two together in this situation (that's about all we can manage anyway). How dare we even attempt to connect the dots?! It is of absolutely NO significance that the same guy who is supposedly behind Piloxll is also pioneering another similar treatment via an overly dodgy site in Russian that has charlatan and scam and snake oil written all over it. I mean who cares about his other ventures, right? Who gives a damn if he's involved in taking advantage of the very people who come to forums like this looking for a cure? Piloxll is completely unrelated so we'll just brush this whole little embarrassing Russian episode under the carpet... and we'll try not to be so dumb in the future.

----------


## Julian P

> Oh intelligent one, please do forgive us mere Neanderthals for being completely unreasonable in adding two and two together in this situation (that's about all we can manage anyway). How dare we even attempt to connect the dots?! It is of absolutely NO significance that the same guy who is supposedly behind Piloxll is also pioneering another similar treatment via an overly dodgy site in Russian that has charlatan and scam and snake oil written all over it. I mean who cares about his other ventures, right? Who gives a damn if he's involved in taking advantage of the very people who come to forums like this looking for a cure? Piloxll is completely unrelated so we'll just brush this whole little embarrassing Russian episode under the carpet... and we'll try not to be so dumb in the future.


 Haha, well said. I was slightly positive about this in the beginning, but after seeing that website that's completely gone.

Still wondering what they used to get the results in the pictures though, if fin would get me these results, I might as well go over to the "dark side".

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> To me this looks like another example of people using keywords to drum up interest and sell a product. When Histogen and others started experimenting with growth factors, you saw all of these products coming out trying to capitalize on that by selling products containing "growth factors". Since Cots research and Follica's work I'm sure we are going to start to see things popping up using the keyword "wounding", which I think is what this product/treatment is. I mean from what I can gather from the info so far there isn't any actual wounding going on, so how do you wound without wounding? I guess it's some new magical wounding technique...


 
You can wound with lasers.... non-dermarolling wounding is possible.... and has been confirmed by people other than Yoram and Pilox team.


*Pilox and the other treatment are not the same product.* 

The descriptions of Pilox do not match the video shown on the russian website AT ALL. 

On top of that, Yoram has distinguished pilox from the other treatment

Therefore, the russian treatment is not pilox.

That doesn't mean that Yoram's involvement in this other treatment isn't worrying, but the russian site and it's treatment ARE DEFINITELY NOT PILOX.

Rather than speculate, I think we need to try and learn more and more.

AGAIN, that being said, its worrying that Yoram is involved with the russian site. BUT, as always, lets wait to see what happens.... the pictures are very good, and the idea behind it has legs. If it's not out in 8 months and yoram still hasn't published or offered anymore conclusive evidence, then we can worry....

we've been waiting since the begining of time for a cure, and only up to a couple months ago, had no end in sight--- so I think we can wait 8 months.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> It's interesting how this is the 1st post you have made on the forum. You have registered a BTT account to tell everyone they are dumb for not believing this product when it clearly is the same one. Do you possibly work for Yoram.


 What is so clear about Pilox being the device from the russian website?

I would venture to say the is extremely clear that they are not the same device....


The issue, to me, is Yoram's involvement in another treatment. If pilox is so good, why bother with anything else?

It's the same question I had for nigam, if his multiplication worked, why offer all the other stuff? We found the answer to that now....

STILL, I am very hopeful for Pilox and urge people not to scare Yoram away.... that wont do us any good AT ALL

----------


## bigentries

> Oh intelligent one, please do forgive us mere Neanderthals for being completely unreasonable in adding two and two together in this situation (that's about all we can manage anyway). How dare we even attempt to connect the dots?! It is of absolutely NO significance that the same guy who is supposedly behind Piloxll is also pioneering another similar treatment via an overly dodgy site in Russian that has charlatan and scam and snake oil written all over it. I mean who cares about his other ventures, right? Who gives a damn if he's involved in taking advantage of the very people who come to forums like this looking for a cure? Piloxll is completely unrelated so we'll just brush this whole little embarrassing Russian episode under the carpet... and we'll try not to be so dumb in the future.


 People on hair loss forums use very weird logic.
Yeah, this guy is involved in a snake oil treatment, but who cares he is taking advantage of a sub-set of bald guys?, he is promising us a real, yet very similar treatment, this time!

I didn't liked one bit how he avoided the russian site question in the private forums. I even think vraf and other Israeli posters are either the same person or working together to push this thing

----------


## porta

That website ist not promoting a cure, but a treatment to add more thickness to the hair, only that.

----------


## bigentries

> That website ist not promoting a cure, but a treatment to add more thickness to the hair, only that.


 Source please

----------


## JJJJrS

> I'm getting more and more convinced it's a scam. Yoram got tons of questions regarding that Russian site, he totally ignored them ! When asked about the current treatments he said he didnt want to go into that because he thought it might come off as 'promotion'. He's involved with a clinic that sells snake oil and then that whole story about that booklet with photo's at the hairdresser ...
> 
> It's all just TOO weird, so many things not adding up ... Still can't say anything for certain, but it's all getting weirder and weirder ...


 Yup. Big scam vibes from this one. People should be very careful before jumping in and potentially wasting a lot of money.

----------


## Kalio

> That website ist not promoting a cure, but a treatment to add more thickness to the hair, only that.


 I am also not really sure why people are suddenly convinced its a scam because of the Russian website. As far as I can see, they're only claiming the thickening of thinning hair and are not proclaiming they can cure baldness. 

No outlandish claims on the rest of the site either.

----------


## bigentries

> What is so clear about Pilox being the device from the russian website?
> 
> I would venture to say the is extremely clear that they are not the same device....
> 
> 
> The issue, to me, is Yoram's involvement in another treatment. If pilox is so good, why bother with anything else?
> 
> It's the same question I had for nigam, if his multiplication worked, why offer all the other stuff? We found the answer to that now....
> 
> STILL, I am very hopeful for Pilox and urge people not to scare Yoram away.... that wont do us any good AT ALL


 We wouldn't it do us any good at all?

If he gets scared, so what? if the thing is true, in 8 months you will see the thing plastered everywhere since Jude Law would get his career back

If nothing comes out, or no one is getting results when it comes out, it would mean the things was a scam all along.

People shouldn't worry about skepticism unless they have something to hide. Science grows out of skepticism, no matter what position you are taking

It's like no one was here in 2013, PGD2, indomethacin, Nigam, dermarolling and minox. It's amazing some of you still have the "open mind" approach after being fooled time after time

----------


## hellouser

> Yup. Big scam vibes from this one. People should be very careful before jumping in and potentially wasting a lot of money.


 The Russian site and PiloxII are separate entities AFAIK.

----------


## greatjob!

> You can wound with lasers.... non-dermarolling wounding is possible.... and has been confirmed by people other than Yoram and Pilox team.


 I understand that, what I was referring to was the fact that the guy who introduced this here and said he is in the clinical trials said it was painless and consisted of just using the device for 15 minutes a day and there were no visible effects to the skin. That is not possible with any other known wounding technique as far as I know, for example lasers are painful and leave evidence that they were used, you can't wound without wounding.

----------


## bigentries

> The Russian site and PiloxII are separate entities AFAIK.


 No one is saying they are the same thing hellouser

However, there is a connection, and what Yoram was describing in the private forum sounds very similar to the Russian treatment

If you don't have any trouble with the connection, fine. But a lot of us are worried that a guy that is promoting snake oil is also claiming to have a legit treatment

You really need to detach emotionally from Piloxx, it is obvious you don't like any skepticism from things you decided are truth, remember the dermarolling and semen debacle.

----------


## hellouser

> No one is saying they are the same thing hellouser
> 
> However, there is a connection, and what Yoram was describing in the private forum sounds very similar to the Russian treatment
> 
> If you don't have any trouble with the connection, fine. But a lot of us are worried that a guy that is promoting snake oil is also claiming to have a legit treatment
> 
> *You really need to detach emotionally from Piloxx, it is obvious you don't like any skepticism from things you decided are truth, remember the dermarolling and semen debacle.*


 Jesus christ dude, this is like the 4th time I'm going to tell you... get this through your thick skull:

*I HAVE NO EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT TO PILOXII.*

I've been keeping my eye on it, yes. So have you. Does that mean you're emotionally attached to it as well?

Hop off my nuts already, you're constantly speaking on my behalf. WHY?

----------


## bigentries

> Jesus christ dude, this is like the 4th time I'm going to tell you... get this through your thick skull:
> 
> *I HAVE NO EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT TO PILOXII.*
> 
> I've been keeping my eye on it, yes. So have you. Does that mean you're emotionally attached to it as well?
> 
> My god.


 Well, you claimed you had never seen the russian thing before, even when you replied about it in *** in December, and now you are too worried about people talking about it.

If you don't have problem with skepticism, just let it flow

----------


## hellouser

> Well, you claimed you had never seen the russian thing before, even when you replied about it in *** in December, *and now you are too worried about people talking about it.*
> 
> If you don't have problem with skepticism, just let it flow


 AGAIN: quit speaking on my behalf.

I'm not worried. Why the hell would I be? Do I have anything to gain or lose? I don't care about any of the connections. I'm *only* interested in the efficacy of PiloxII. I haven't even taken part much in the discussions about it. My only praise for it is in regards to the stellar photography shown in the before/after pictures.

----------


## greatjob!

> Well, you claimed you had never seen the russian thing before, even when you replied about it in *** in December, and now you are too worried about people talking about it.
> 
> If you don't have problem with skepticism, just let it flow


 Be careful bro he'll put you on his ignore list....Lol  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## bigentries

> AGAIN: quit speaking on my behalf.
> 
> I'm not worried. Why the hell would I be? Do I have anything to gain or lose? I don't care about any of the connections. I'm *only* interested in the efficacy of PiloxII. I haven't even taken part much in the discussions about it. My only praise for it is in regards to the stellar photography shown in the before/after pictures.


 That's why I think you have developed an emotional attachment as you did with the dermarolling, why wouldn't you worry about the connections then? 
You also lied about not knowing about the russian site, why did you do it?

The connections are important to uncover if Pilox is a scam or not. The russian site also has amazing pictures, what do you think about them then? A guy in the private forum chat found they seem to be taken in the same place the hairdresser pics were taken

----------


## hellouser

> That's why I think you have developed an emotional attachment as you did with the dermarolling, why wouldn't you worry about the connections then? 
> You also lied about not knowing about the russian site, why did you do it?
> 
> The connections are important to uncover if Pilox is a scam or not. The russian site also has amazing pictures, what do you think about them then? A guy in the private forum chat found they seem to be taken in the same place the hairdresser pics were taken


 You seem to be both delusional and have extreme shite reading comprehension skills.

I never had emotional attachment to dermarolling. To put salt on your wound, I've been dermarolling since August with marginal or no results at all so far. If you saw any of my replies recently over at ***, you would have noticed that I was OPEN to criticisms of dermarolling if only to iron out all the details and/or improve or prove efficacy. So there goes your ridiculous argument.... right out the window.

In regards to you AGAIN feeding people bullshit about me lying about the Russian site, lol.. my god, you clearly are a child. I never lied about anything because I havent looked at the russian site... I've dismissed it as irrelevant and have never made comments nor have any to make now other than what my previous statement that its separate from PiloxII (this is whats been said in the private forums). You're coming after me when I'm merely repeating what others have said as if my word is scripture.

Just out of curiousity... what is your IQ level?

----------


## bigentries

> You seem to be both delusional and have extreme shite reading comprehension skills.
> 
> I never had emotional attachment to dermarolling. To put salt on your wound, I've been dermarolling since August with marginal or no results at all so far. If you saw any of my replies recently over at ***, you would have noticed that I was OPEN to criticisms of dermarolling if only to iron out all the details and/or improve or prove efficacy. So there goes your ridiculous argument.... right out the window.
> 
> In regards to you AGAIN feeding people bullshit about me lying about the Russian site, lol.. my god, you clearly are a child. I never lied about anything because I havent looked at the russian site... I've dismissed it as irrelevant and have never made comments nor have any to make now other than what my previous statement that its separate from PiloxII (this is whats been said in the private forums). You're coming after me when I'm merely repeating what others have said as if my word is scripture.
> 
> Just out of curiousity... what is your IQ level?


 Lol, strawman

OK, you've never seen the site, even when you replied about it in December at ***, but you are not lying. You just decided to dismiss it, on what grounds?

Have you seen the pics in the russian site? have you read the chat in the private forum where the pics were discussed?
Talk about selective reading

It's impossible to reason with you, it's easy to see you already decided Pilox is legit and you'll defend it until the hype starts to fade like you are doing with the dermarolling.

----------


## hellouser

> Lol, strawman
> 
> OK, you've never seen the site, even when you replied about it in December at ***, but you are not lying. You just decided to dismiss it, on what grounds?
> 
> Have you seen the pics in the russian site? have you read the chat in the private forum where the pics were discussed?
> Talk about selective reading
> 
> It's impossible to reason with you, it's easy to see you already decided Pilox is legit and you'll defend it until the hype starts to fade like you are doing with the dermarolling.


 IQ under 90? Probably.

I dismissed the Russian site because:

1) I dont care for things outside of PiloxII and am going by what others have said that the two being unrelated.

2) I'm not sure if I saw the right site, but remember seeing something that looked like was designed in the 90s and spent less than 15 seconds on it.

3) I do remember seeing a site with mangled characters and dismissed that early too.

I DONT remember if it was the site everyone is talking about.

Now, this will probably be too difficult for you to understand (like most things) but I have a life outside of the forums, for example, a full time job, freelance work and sometimes a social life... so take this into consideration: There's too much information on all topics in regards to hair loss news, treatments, experimentals, future advancements, etc. There's only SO MUCH I can take in and only so much I can remember. You wanna pin me for something? You can find me guilty on that. So YES, I do have selective reading. However, this is clearly a case of the pot calling the kettle back...

Remember this gem of yours?




> Originally Posted by hellouser
> 
> 
> I'm going to assume you're NOT trolling with these questions, so I'll give you a serious answer (the questions are pretty laughable for people in my industry and actually borderline insult). But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your ignorance on the matter (no offense).
> 
> At my current job I am more or less the digital product manager. I fill a lot of roles for my position, anything from front end/back end development in HTML, CSS, Javascript, to video producting, editing in After Effects, studio photography, print materials, as well as design and illustration across the entire Adobe Creative Suite. I've got about 14 years under my belt, 3 years of college for design and my last three years in highschool focusing lots on fine art, media arts and communications technology, winning a number of awards in young talent competitions across, going as far being top 10 in my province. It's taken an incredible number of projects to get to where I am, and yes, a lot of it has included professional photography along with colour correction and photo editing both with Lightroom and Photoshop. I've posted a number of times on proper photography here in the forums, both in terms of subject lighting and camera settings. These things WILL affect how a photograph can be manipulated, there are a number of variables and its typically whats in focus and how much of an area you have to play with. Images with a strong bokeh (google the term) with a quick focus fall off will limit what you can do. But this is just ONE variable. Again, 10+ years in the industry, I can tell. I edit photographs all the time; colour corrections, cropping, removing blemishes, removing text, etc. I enjoy my field... a lot. I love everything that has to do with digital media, this is as much of a hobby as it is a job for me.
> 
> So, questioning my expertise with Photoshop after investing so much time in my field and helping people here with photography is a slap to the face
> 
> ...


 I made it perfectly clear to you that I work in digital media as well as print and you came to the conclusion that I'm a web developer?

Selective reading my ass....

----------


## deuce

Weren't a couple of guys in trials on the forum? I think we can just shut up until we hear from them. We need to just chill.

----------


## Thinning87

Wow people get a life. Spend less time on this forum

----------


## cotto

I dont know why you enter in discussions with bigentries hellouser, you just want something that works for your hair like everyone else on here, so stop debating, thats a no way!!

So people in the private forum are directly chatting with yoram or the two forum members into trials?
SO why dont you translate to this forum the info that they are giving there?
I cant explain myself why im seeing that is a ****ing SCAM cause my english is quite bad. Again like Nigams, some people like to play with our dreams

----------


## hellouser

> I dont know why you enter in discussions with bigentries hellouser, you just want something that works for your hair like everyone else on here, so stop debating, thats a no way!!
> 
> So people in the private forum are directly chatting with yoram or the two forum members into trials?
> SO why dont you translate to this forum the info that they are giving there?
> I cant explain myself why im seeing that is a ****ing SCAM cause my english is quite bad. Again like Nigams, some people like to play with our dreams


 I don't want to be meddling with info from the private forums being posted here as I've noticed a LOT of people have been banned here for less than that. I'd rather not risk it.

----------


## Sogeking

My perspective: when it goes out and if it goes out, I will know if it works or not. If it doesn't work they will obviously not get a cent from me. So I won't lose anything. 
To all of those who would have given some money or hope into this and would turn out to be fake, I would offer my thanks and sympathies.

----------


## JJJJrS

> The Russian site and PiloxII are separate entities AFAIK.


 Not quite. That Yoram guy seems to be the main person associated with both. Perhaps the "product" is not the same but the person is.

And the most important part:




> *The connections are important to uncover if Pilox is a scam or not. The russian site also has amazing pictures, what do you think about them then? A guy in the private forum chat found they seem to be taken in the same place the hairdresser pics were taken*


 This is a very important point. It's well known that the Russian site is a scam.

Put two and two together, and it should raise red flags for anyone who actually has hopes about this.

----------


## Parsia

> You seem to be both delusional and have extreme shite reading comprehension skills.
> 
> I never had emotional attachment to dermarolling. To put salt on your wound, I've been dermarolling since August with marginal or no results at all so far. If you saw any of my replies recently over at ***, you would have noticed that I was OPEN to criticisms of dermarolling if only to iron out all the details and/or improve or prove efficacy. So there goes your ridiculous argument.... right out the window.
> 
> In regards to you AGAIN feeding people bullshit about me lying about the Russian site, lol.. my god, you clearly are a child. I never lied about anything because I havent looked at the russian site... I've dismissed it as irrelevant and have never made comments nor have any to make now other than what my previous statement that its separate from PiloxII (this is whats been said in the private forums). You're coming after me when I'm merely repeating what others have said as if my word is scripture.
> 
> Just out of curiousity... what is your IQ level?


 I have really read many posts of hellouser and I think its so unfair that you think he has emotional feeling for dermarolling ! He started to talk in a thread about is derma really useful or not? I have never seen his effort to make a prove about it . its not good to judge without having enough information , I also think he and me tries to be positive about something which can help, I can also understand you wanna get the result with finding 
the clues. He and another person mentioned which photos could not be a photoshop ( and both work in this area for 10 years) , So if we can confirm the photo's are real it can make us to think about the scam issue twice !

----------


## Julian P

> This is a very important point. It's well known that the Russian site is a scam.


 It looks quite shady indeed, but are you 100% sure it's a scam ? I mean, if these dermarolling studies would be real (and I do believe some forummembers had decent results, despite of other failures), this thing could give some results as well.

So I'm just asking: do you presume it is false, or are you absolutely sure ?

----------


## hellouser

> It looks quite shady indeed, but are you 100% sure it's a scam ? I mean, if these dermarolling studies would be real (and I do believe some forummembers had decent results, despite of other failures), this thing could give some results as well.
> 
> So I'm just asking: do you presume it is false, or are you absolutely sure ?


 It's a presumption. The sites product is unrelated to the PiloxII device:

russian site = dermapen
piloxII = dermarolling with zinc and copper ions...

Also, take everything everyone says with a fine grain of salt.

Real world results of PiloxII will come eventually.

----------


## Julian P

> Also, take everything everyone says with a fine grain of salt.


 That's why I asked him off course. But indeed, we'll see when results, be it good or bad ones, will come.

----------


## doke

> Be careful bro he'll put you on his ignore list....Lol


 he will hit you with his handbag hahaha ignor list about time he grew up.

----------


## greatjob!

> Also, take everything everyone says with a fine grain of salt.


 This also includes what hellouser says, contrary to what he would like you all to believe he is not the authority on anything.

----------


## strife91

> This also includes what hellouser says, contrary to what he would like you all to believe he is not the authority on anything.


 Maybe give it a rest , I wonder how many people hellouser has helped by his ru usage guide alone. It's because of guys like him that these forums are worth checking out

----------


## GuyFromUK

It could be that the pen device on the Russian site is an earlier version of Piloxll. 

Maybe the device on the Russian site gave a few results and  Piloxll is a newer improved version (with zinc and copper ions) which works even better.

They did say in an earlier post that Piloxll is the 5th version of the product, so maybe they have been on to something successful for a while and have been constantly working to improve the product which they are now ready to release in 2014

----------


## Atum

One can hope.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> It could be that the pen device on the Russian site is an earlier version of Piloxll. 
> 
> Maybe the device on the Russian site gave a few results and  Piloxll is a newer improved version (with zinc and copper ions) which works even better.
> 
> They did say in an earlier post that Piloxll is the 5th version of the product, so maybe they have been on to something successful for a while and have been constantly working to improve the product which they are now ready to release in 2014


 OMG, guys.... please listen.... for the last time:

PILOX AND THE DERMAPEN FOUND ON THE RUSSIAN WEBSITE ARE NOT RELATED WHAT SO EVER

the dermapen is NOT an earlier version of pilox. It's a separate treatment. Yoram has explained it has something to do with one of his students, and im venturing a guess that he doesn't want to pit Pilox vs. this other guys business. Maybe he has a stake in it too. This last bit is a complete guess by me, but what is a fact is: PILOX IS NOT THE PRODUCT FROM THE RUSSIAN SITE

how many times does this need to be said?


Pilox has not needles, at all. It uses ionos-something to shoot zinc ions, copper ions, and maybe something else (we don't know)... below is some info on zinc ions, copper ions, and ionos-whatever in detail....

EVERYONE, PLEASE STOP RAMBLING WITHOUT READING THE THREAD

and stop insinuating the creator is a fraud... we have zero reason to believe that. At this point, the science looks reasonable maybe, the pictures look great--- that is all we have. The hair dresser story is different, but not completely unbelievable. The russian site is kind of weird, but has been explained pretty reasonably--- and to somebody who has been following this discussion-- can be easily seen that it is completely unrelated to pilox. 


that being said:

1. ionos-whatever doesn't go systemic, and penetrates the best

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S01 ... ci_arttext

Transdermal iontophoresis (TDI) is a non-invasive technique that uses a lower electric current potential than five volts, with current intensities oscillating between 0.1 and 1 mA/cm2. It has the purpose to facilitate the transfer of ions and substances through the corneal layer of the skin in a controlled fashion.

Among the advantages of the technique, reduced risk infection and the possibility of administering the drug directly to the affected site, thus minimizing its adverse systemic effects, are noteworthy. 


2. Zinc blocks DHT, fact. Does zinc block DHT really well when it's shot through an ionos-whatever? Who knows...

"the two most important benefits of zinc to acne patients are its antimicrobial properties and its ability to reduce the production of dihydrotestosterone."

http://www.progressivehealth.com/acne-zinc.htm

3. Copper ions promote growth... but can be toxic... copper+ionosphere? Supposedly it doesn't go systemic. 


So, considering the above + the pics we've seen, the evidence is on yoram's side as far as I'm concerned....the jury is not out but it's worth further inspection...WITHOUT CONSTANTLY INSINUATING HE'S A FRAUD OR THAT _"YOU HAVE A BAD FEELING"_ , etc etc

newsflash: Nobody cares about your feelings. We want facts.

----------


## bigentries

> and stop insinuating the creator is a fraud... we have zero reason to believe that.


 You don't worry at all that he is connected to the russian site? Or that he used to prescribe accupuncture in his clinic to treat hair loss?

----------


## Parsia

> OMG, guys.... please listen.... for the last time:
> 
> PILOX AND THE DERMAPEN FOUND ON THE RUSSIAN WEBSITE ARE NOT RELATED WHAT SO EVER
> 
> the dermapen is NOT an earlier version of pilox. It's a separate treatment. Yoram has explained it has something to do with one of his students, and im venturing a guess that he doesn't want to pit Pilox vs. this other guys business. Maybe he has a stake in it too. This last bit is a complete guess by me, but what is a fact is: PILOX IS NOT THE PRODUCT FROM THE RUSSIAN SITE
> 
> how many times does this need to be said?
> 
> 
> ...


 ------------------

Good post and realistic ! Agreed !

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> You don't worry at all that he is connected to the russian site? Or that he used to prescribe accupuncture in his clinic to treat hair loss?


 
When did I say I'm not worried at all? I think the answer seems reasonable, and even though I shouldn't, I am posting Yoram's response, as I think he'd appreciate that the talk of a scam stops. 


"2. What you call Russian treatments, it is a new method and products line and brand . 
Dr.burstein Laboratory asked me to create for him a new treatment method for home use or professional. 
This is a private collaboration between the chief chemist and me. 
One of my students asked the lab to be the first to use this treatments and I trained him during a trip to Moscow. 
The final and commercial version is coming out this days and I am presenting it next month in Germany. 
This student decided to make a Russian website and promote dr. Burstein treatments and put my name and photos. 
I am checking this issue this days. 
I tested the results and I am happy to see fast changes. 
This treatment is more oriented for hair clinics or cosmethologist. The first formulation was for women FAGA. After I experimented also for men. 
I got 80 % good satisfaction from the 2first months . 
This treatment has nothing secret. 
The idea was to have active ingredients like copper peptides, powerfull anti inflamatory , anti Dht,sebum regulators .... With good penetration and absorbtion. 
Most of product do not penetrate enough or at all. 
We decided to creat a scalp peeling to remove dead cells from the epidermis and put the scalp in optimal condition for active ingredients to penetrate the epidermis. 
Than we are using the dermapen to "push in "the active ingredients. 
The dermapen also create a stimulation and wound healing reaction. 
The combination of this 3 make a chain reaction and improve in short time hair thickness, increase and stimulate hair growth. 
This is in short .."

----------


## chimera

> *I HAVE NO EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT TO PILOXII.*


 I've seen it before. Any debate of any kind with bigentries will always end with him saying you are emotionaly attached to whatever you are talking about and that you can't take skepticism. And dare to try and say anything and you are even more and more attached and deluded by blind fate and fear. Theres' just no way around it.

----------


## bigentries

> I've seen it before. Any debate of any kind with bigentries will always end with him saying you are emotionaly attached to whatever you are talking about and that you can't take skepticism. And dare to try and say anything and you are even more and more attached and deluded by blind fate and fear. Theres' just no way around it.


 Well, you have to understand is frustrating that you present some evidence and someone just decides to not even look at it but also dismiss it as irrelevant.

But I've had it before, I've also came close to being banned because I spoke against the indomethacin fraud and no one likes to touch that subject in that forum anymore

Take the Nigam skeptics for example, many didn't wanted anyone to doubt him or otherwise he would stop releasing information

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Well, you have to understand is frustrating that you present some evidence and someone just decides to not even look at it but also dismiss it as irrelevant.


 
I would not call the russian site "evidence"... nor would I say me or anyone else "dismissed" it. 

All I'm saying is he answered the inquires about the website, and it makes sense he's not trying to trash some other thing he's involved with or his student is involved with. 

The truth is, sitting around and insinuating the guy is a liar in between his visits to the forum obviously didn't help anyone. Are we really better off now losing our only source of info (and a good source at that; the creator/researcher)?

You say others and I dismiss the evidence, but you're the one dismissing the evidence. The science that Yoram has mentioned has the possibility of working.... have you acknowledged that yet? That's actual evidence. A website affiliation is not evidence of anything really.

The guy is probably working 14 hours days between research, a billion dollar product launch, and teaching. So, believe it or not coming to some online forum full of crazies isn't the first thing on his agenda, dont sit around insinuating and trashing his name in between his forum visits..... would like to google your name and see all these allegations pop up? after just a few months ago you were a normal researcher?

----------


## JJJJrS

> OMG, guys.... please listen.... for the last time:
> 
> PILOX AND THE DERMAPEN FOUND ON THE RUSSIAN WEBSITE ARE NOT RELATED WHAT SO EVER
> 
> the dermapen is NOT an earlier version of pilox. It's a separate treatment. Yoram has explained it has something to do with one of his students, and im venturing a guess that he doesn't want to pit Pilox vs. this other guys business. Maybe he has a stake in it too. This last bit is a complete guess by me, but what is a fact is: PILOX IS NOT THE PRODUCT FROM THE RUSSIAN SITE
> 
> how many times does this need to be said?
> 
> 
> ...


 C'mon man. All your posts are emotional and based on wishful thinking.

A year or two ago it was all about Gho. You were convinced that HST was the cure, the solution, even ended up spending thousands of dollars on a procedure. How did that work out by the way? Seems you've already jumped ship to something else...

That's the problem with the hair loss forums - the people are so desperate, they'll throw away all logic for the faint hope that this new, hot treatment might be the cure. And snake oil salesmen pray on that. People like needhairasap are sitting fish waiting to be reeled in.

Bigentries described this Yoram guy well:




> You don't worry at all that he is connected to the russian site? Or that he used to prescribe accupuncture in his clinic to treat hair loss?


 ... and yet somehow, people on here think this guy might have the cure  :Big Grin:  Isn't it obvious that he's just jumping on the dermaroller bandwagon and using the forums to market it with his partner vraf?

----------


## TwoInchCircle

> 1. ionos-whatever doesn't go systemic, and penetrates the best
> 
> http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S01 ... ci_arttext
> 
> Transdermal iontophoresis (TDI) is a non-invasive technique that uses a lower electric current potential than five volts, with current intensities oscillating between 0.1 and 1 mA/cm2. It has the purpose to facilitate the transfer of ions and substances through the corneal layer of the skin in a controlled fashion.


 Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the same way Cosmo got CB into peoples scalps when they got those amazing results? Forgive my ignorance, but then is it possible to put CB in this device and deliver it right to the follicle and to hell with finding a working vehicle? Or is a vehicle still needed?

----------


## bigentries

> I would not call the russian site "evidence"... *nor would I say me or anyone else "dismissed" it.*


 I bet you will not reply to this, I don't know why I take my time...





> You seem to be both delusional and have extreme shite reading comprehension skills.
> 
> I never had emotional attachment to dermarolling. To put salt on your wound, I've been dermarolling since August with marginal or no results at all so far. If you saw any of my replies recently over at ***, you would have noticed that I was OPEN to criticisms of dermarolling if only to iron out all the details and/or improve or prove efficacy. So there goes your ridiculous argument.... right out the window.
> 
> In regards to you AGAIN feeding people bullshit about me lying about the Russian site, lol.. my god, you clearly are a child. I never lied about anything because I havent looked at the russian site... *I've dismissed it as irrelevant* and have never made comments nor have any to make now other than what my previous statement that its separate from PiloxII (this is whats been said in the private forums). You're coming after me when I'm merely repeating what others have said as if my word is scripture.
> 
> Just out of curiousity... what is your IQ level?


 




> IQ under 90? Probably.
> 
> I *dismissed* the Russian site because:
> 
> 1) I dont care for things outside of PiloxII and am going by what others have said that the two being unrelated.
> 
> 2) I'm not sure if I saw the right site, but remember seeing something that looked like was designed in the 90s and spent less than 15 seconds on it.
> 
> 3) I do remember seeing a site with mangled characters and dismissed that early too.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I bet you will not reply to this, I don't know why I take my time...


 hmm.... i'm rethinking pilox completely now. Thanks for posting.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> C'mon man. All your posts are emotional and based on wishful thinking.
> 
> A year or two ago it was all about Gho. You were convinced that HST was the cure, the solution, even ended up spending thousands of dollars on a procedure. How did that work out by the way? Seems you've already jumped ship to something else...
> 
> That's the problem with the hair loss forums - the people are so desperate, they'll throw away all logic for the faint hope that this new, hot treatment might be the cure. And snake oil salesmen pray on that. People like needhairasap are sitting fish waiting to be reeled in.
> 
> Bigentries described this Yoram guy well:
> 
> 
> ... and yet somehow, people on here think this guy might have the cure  Isn't it obvious that he's just jumping on the dermaroller bandwagon and using the forums to market it with his partner vraf?


 

1. Im still about Gho but I'd gladly pass on another 10k HST for $500 pilox.

2. i dont see wishful thinking in my post... I see scientific facts that should make a normal person curious. I also see pictures that should make a normal person curious. 

3. I'm a little confused as to what you guys want yoram to provide you right this second.....he has pictures, third-party science behind it, he's releasing it within 8 months.... i mean...what do you want? is he suppose to give you his blueprints 6 months before the launch? and if he doesn't he's a fraud?

4. You guys have literally nothing to point at... you think it's weird that the book got leaked and you think it's weird he is on a russian site.... otherwise, he has some of the best quality pictures we've ever seen and some extremely interesting science behind the idea.

----------


## Arashi

> C'mon man. All your posts are emotional and based on wishful thinking.
> 
> A year or two ago it was all about Gho. You were convinced that HST was the cure, the solution, even ended up spending thousands of dollars on a procedure. How did that work out by the way? Seems you've already jumped ship to something else...
> 
> That's the problem with the hair loss forums - the people are so desperate, they'll throw away all logic for the faint hope that this new, hot treatment might be the cure. And snake oil salesmen pray on that. People like needhairasap are sitting fish waiting to be reeled in.
> 
> Bigentries described this Yoram guy well:
> 
> ... and yet somehow, people on here think this guy might have the cure  Isn't it obvious that he's just jumping on the dermaroller bandwagon and using the forums to market it with his partner vraf?


 Thanks for your posts JJJJrS, I always enjoy reading them, you're by far one of the most intelligent posters here and you've alway been right. On the other hand, the people who bought into earlier scams are exactly the same people who are ALWAYS defending the new, unproven, techniques again when they come out, even when there's tons of stuff that doesn't add up, like with Pilox... These people are always agressive and insulting the critics. Furthermore, they have a proven trackrecord of being wrong, in fact, they've ALWAYS been wrong. How many scams have we seen in the last 4-5 year ? Probably around 6. How many things turned out to work ? Zero. The critics have ALWAYS been right in the end...

That of course doesn't mean it will always be like this. But man all the 'funny' stuff regarding the Pilox, all the stuff that doesn't add up at all... The similarities with Nigam are really striking again.

----------


## deuce

How about everyone just shut up until we find out if this is real or fake.  I say 80% chance its fake.  But who really knows.  If it is fake these asshole loser salesman and scientist need to really be taught a lesson.  But how do people keep falling for these products again and again.  We need better treatments.  Who knows this could be one.  I doubt it, but I really do not know so lets quit speculating.  Does anyone know the forum members who are trialing this out?

----------


## bigentries

> Thanks for your posts JJJJrS, I always enjoy reading them, you're by far one of the most intelligent posters here and you've alway been right. On the other hand, the people who bought into earlier scams are exactly the same people who are ALWAYS defending the new, unproven, techniques again when they come out, even when there's tons of stuff that doesn't add up, like with Pilox... These people are always agressive and insulting the critics. Furthermore, they have a proven trackrecord of being wrong, in fact, they've ALWAYS been wrong. How many scams have we seen in the last 4-5 year ? Probably around 6. How many things turned out to work ? Zero. The critics have ALWAYS been right in the end...
> 
> That of course doesn't mean it will always be like this. But man all the 'funny' stuff regarding the Pilox, all the stuff that doesn't add up at all... The similarities with Nigam are really striking again.


 Thinking about it Arashi, I think we should step off the Pilox debate for a while, maybe a month or two

I have to admit I made a mistake bringing up the Russian site
I just did it because Yoram was bringing up the dermapen stuff, but it was a mistake, I did it too soon. Just as I brought it up again he stopped giving information and has tried to separate himself from the Russian site, deleting his information there

Pretty sure if I waited a couple of weeks he would have spilled more information and gotten himself in more trouble

I've made some searches in Russian and Hebrew and have found some interesting stuff about him and his colleagues, but with the situation going on, people would just dismiss it immediately

Just stay away from the discussion and see if you can find more about him and let's just use it when people start to lower their defenses

----------


## cotto

Ok thats easy!! yoram is a nigamer until he can proof it isnt!! So everyody needs to think like that, we dont need more charlatas to take our money and hope. It will be released in 8 months right? so he is a charlatan right now and if it works i will be the first to shut up my mouth and give him great reviews everywhere cause it will be a kind of god for me, but now is just a nigamer.
If i google my name and see all that bad wors about me, i will not give up, instead i will work harder to shut up everybodys mouth

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Thinking about it Arashi, I think we should step off the Pilox debate for a while, maybe a month or two
> 
> I have to admit I made a mistake bringing up the Russian site
> I just did it because Yoram was bringing up the dermapen stuff, but it was a mistake, I did it too soon. Just as I brought it up again he stopped giving information and has tried to separate himself from the Russian site, deleting his information there
> 
> Pretty sure if I waited a couple of weeks he would have spilled more information and gotten himself in more trouble
> 
> I've made some searches in Russian and Hebrew and have found some interesting stuff about him and his colleagues, but with the situation going on, people would just dismiss it immediately
> 
> Just stay away from the discussion and see if you can find more about him and let's just use it when people start to lower their defenses


 Nobody is defensive. They just didn't want you all offending the guy so that he'd disappear... which is exactly what happened.

----------


## Arashi

> Nobody is defensive. They just didn't want you all offending the guy so that he'd disappear... which is exactly what happened.


 Nobody offended the guy. He left cause he got confronted with that russian site, the fact that he sold snakeoil therapies in the past (accupuncture) and other difficult questions.

----------


## JJJJrS

> 2. i dont see wishful thinking in my post... I see scientific facts that should make a normal person curious. I also see pictures that should make a normal person curious.


 What scientific facts?  :Big Grin:  The guy's just jumping on the dermarolling fad here. There's no peer-reviewed papers or science involved in this. We don't even know what the mechanism behind all this is. So thanks for proving my point.  :Wink:  




> 3. I'm a little confused as to what you guys want yoram to provide you right this second.....he has pictures, third-party science behind it, he's releasing it within 8 months.... i mean...what do you want? is he suppose to give you his blueprints 6 months before the launch? and if he doesn't he's a fraud?


 No, he has some nice pictures that were photocopied from a hair dresser, and that's it. We have no independent verification. No idea if these people were on medication - and that makes a big difference, see even better pictures on this link) from people on fin and minox. No idea if the before and afters were switched. There's a a lot of ways a photo can be manipulated and it doesn't necessarily have to involve photoshop.





> 4. You guys have literally nothing to point at... you think it's weird that the book got leaked and you think it's weird he is on a russian site.... otherwise, he has some of the best quality pictures we've ever seen and some extremely interesting science behind the idea.


 Again, the guy was selling acupuncture as a hairloss cure for ****'s sake.  :Big Grin:  He has a less than stellar reputation in the countries he works in. Basically a snake oil salesman who's been in the hair loss game for a while. 

If he has a product that works, we will know, make no mistake about that. But let's be serious here for a second, what are the chances that this guy is going to have the cure or even a better treatment? It's another Nigam story and this time, people should be much more careful before throwing away their money to questionable people.

----------


## JJJJrS

> Thanks for your posts JJJJrS, I always enjoy reading them, you're by far one of the most intelligent posters here and you've alway been right. On the other hand, the people who bought into earlier scams are exactly the same people who are ALWAYS defending the new, unproven, techniques again when they come out, even when there's tons of stuff that doesn't add up, like with Pilox... These people are always agressive and insulting the critics. Furthermore, they have a proven trackrecord of being wrong, in fact, they've ALWAYS been wrong. How many scams have we seen in the last 4-5 year ? Probably around 6. How many things turned out to work ? Zero. The critics have ALWAYS been right in the end...
> 
> That of course doesn't mean it will always be like this. But man all the 'funny' stuff regarding the Pilox, all the stuff that doesn't add up at all... The similarities with Nigam are really striking again.


 Appreciate it Arashi. There's a lot of desperate people out there, especially on the hair loss forums. I wouldn't pay too much attention to them. They may not realize it now, but you're doing them a favour. 

The last thing the forums need is for everyone to give the con-artists, snake oil salesmen free reign. If you make big claims and have a financial interest, you should absolutely expect to be scrutinized. If I had a product that worked, I would welcome this. You'd hope that people would have learned a lesson after Nigam.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Nobody offended the guy. He left cause he got confronted with that russian site, the fact that he sold snakeoil therapies in the past (accupuncture) and other difficult questions.


 
I think it would be a lot more helpful to yourselves and the forum if you spent more time researching the science behind Pilox, and less time trying to tie a bunch of ancillary information into a conspiracy theory-- one involving 6 years of preparation: the oceans 11 of snake oil schemes lol. 

Just a thought.

----------


## Parsia

> Ok thats easy!! yoram is a nigamer until he can proof it isnt!! So everyody needs to think like that, we dont need more charlatas to take our money and hope. It will be released in 8 months right? so he is a charlatan right now and if it works i will be the first to shut up my mouth and give him great reviews everywhere cause it will be a kind of god for me, but now is just a nigamer.
> If i google my name and see all that bad wors about me, i will not give up, instead i will work harder to shut up everybodys mouth


 ----------------------------

Yeah your right ! If you believe in your work you will keep doing on it to shut their mouth!  If someone found a great product for hairloss why he should give up for Some negative comments? It doesn't make sense and the time will show everything! Agree?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> ----------------------------
> 
> Yeah your right ! If you believe in your work you will keep doing on it to shut their mouth!  If someone found a great product for hairloss why he should give up for Some negative comments? It doesn't make sense and the time will show everything! Agree?


 I don't think it helps anyone to speculate on the fact he decided to not come to the forums.

It's just as likely that somebody who has a great product would be like, "forget these guys, I was trying to be nice, they'll have no choice but to be customers one day, as my product is great"

I don't know if what you suggest is correct, or if what I suggest is correct. It's a toss up and we have no way to know, so why speculate on this?

RATHER, LETS DIG UP SOME MORE ON THE SCIENCE-- much more helpful than piecing together conspiracy theories off little to nothing.

----------


## Thinning@30

I'm not sure what to make of Yoram's decision to withdraw from the other site.  I was interested in learning more about Pilox.  I'm aware of the shady stuff with the Russian site, but if real, the pictures were way better than anything else I've seen, and there does seem to be some solid science behind the transdermal iontophoresis of copper and zinc for hair loss.  It's not like Yoram was constantly switching protocols like Nigam, and he wasn't even selling anything yet.  There was some talk about publishing a paper, so I am willing to entertain the notion that proof is pending. At the same time, researchers who choose to engage the hair loss community should not expect a fawning and unskeptical audience.  In this field anything that isn't backed up by clinical trials or published peer-reviewed research is highly suspect.

----------


## Parsia

> I don't think it helps anyone to speculate on the fact he decided to not come to the forums.
> 
> It's just as likely that somebody who has a great product would be like, "forget these guys, I was trying to be nice, they'll have no choice but to be customers one day, as my product is great"
> 
> I don't know if what you suggest is correct, or if what I suggest is correct. It's a toss up and we have no way to know, so why speculate on this?
> 
> RATHER, LETS DIG UP SOME MORE ON THE SCIENCE-- much more helpful than piecing together conspiracy theories off little to nothing.


 ------------
I don't know he reading these posts are not but even he read that so far, If we consider he is a legit guy he didn't spend many years of his life to research about a product and then give up Because around 50-100 persons on the forum think it is scam ! I really do not believe that ! If he really works on something which is REAL we definitely hear about that ! If the pics are real ( which I think they are) , the product would be work and those people with negative opinion have not anything to say ! SO I do not see any reason for him to be discourage when he will notice some negative opinion for the product which has not released yet ! That's all !

----------


## lilpauly

I think it's legit , I will be usi g the device for cb as well , 2 of my friends are using this device , I have faith!!!!!!

----------


## Parsia

> I think it's legit , I will be usi g the device for cb as well , 2 of my friends are using this device , I have faith!!!!!!


 2 of your friend is in israel? Am I right? would you please give me more information dude?

----------


## lilpauly

> 2 of your friend is in israel? Am I right? would you please give me more information dude?


 Yes man dissident and Oogie . Yes they live in israel .

----------


## Parsia

> Yes man dissident and Oogie . Yes they live in israel .


 Great , I have read some post from you before and the good thing is everyone knows you tried many different products so we know you and we believe about what you are saying , I also have a few question about helping about my hairline and promox from you , but it will go off topic, I would try to find you from private message . thanks

----------


## Sogeking

Yeah lilpauly has tried all sorts of different products and he definitely has credibility, at least for me, on tbt. So if his two friends get some regrowth and lilpauly informs us, it would make me believe a lot more.  Keep us in the loop lilpauly, and thank you for the info. 
All in all I hate my hair loss, it is not that I think this must work, but I am more with hellouser and NeedHAIRAsap, in 8 months if we get nothing from it , we will know, and that will be it, no point in arguing 'til then.

----------


## GuyFromUK

> I think it's legit , I will be usi g the device for cb as well , 2 of my friends are using this device , I have faith!!!!!!


 

Hi lilpauly can you give us some feedback on how they are getting on with this device. How long have they been using it? Have they had any sheds or positive results yet?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> No idea if the before and afters were switched.


 
hmm... never thought about this. Maybe they took the "after" pictures in 2004 , the same year they filed the first patent? Doing this knowing full-well that they could continue to compile the patents and test phases, as the "trialists" got balder and balder. Then in 2013 they could take the "before" pictures, then leak them onto the web, finally launching a decade later in 2014, and culminating the greatest hairloss snake oil scheme in the history of the world. 


fantastic... what happens in the next chapter?

----------


## deuce

> Hi lilpauly can you give us some feedback on how they are getting on with this device. How long have they been using it? Have they had any sheds or positive results yet?


 +1

----------


## BDDFreak

> I think it's legit , I will be usi g the device for cb as well , 2 of my friends are using this device , I have faith!!!!!!


 Are they just using an iontophoresis device or the piloxll device?

----------


## garethbale

Don't wish to sound pessimistic but I really don't think Pilox will do all that much.

The results obtained appear no better than fin and minox IMO, unless I am missing something.

----------


## TravisB

> I think it's legit , I will be usi g the device for cb as well , 2 of my friends are using this device , I have faith!!!!!!


 Wow, that's awesome man!

When are you going to start using the device?

If you want to check whether the device is really working you should be using it alone without CB

----------


## lilpauly

> Yes man dissident and Oogie . Yes they live in israel .


 


> Great , I have read some post from you before and the good thing is everyone knows you tried many different products so we know you and we believe about what you are saying , I also have a few question about helping about my hairline and promox from you , but it will go off topic, I would try to find you from private message . thanks


 I tried everything friend !!!!!!! All experimentals , I will ask them to join Baldtruthralk !!!!

----------


## lilpauly

> Wow, that's awesome man!
> 
> When are you going to start using the device?
> 
> If you want to check whether the device is really working you should be using it alone without CB


 Hi Travis how are u brother! This marklc , Travis I'm convinced this device is similar to what. Cosmo used for cb,

----------


## lilpauly

> +1


 The device was giving to trialist for free in israel, they started recently.  I promise to keep u guys updated ,

----------


## HairBane

I haven't commented on Pillox much because I'm very skeptical of it, but if Pauly uses it and tells us it works, it'll be amazing news. Who knows, maybe there is something to the whole wounding/ions theory. I doubt it'll be a cure but it could help some early norwoods with regrowth and maintenance. It's apparently gonna be available in less than a year too. I'd like to see someone try it in combination with the Lithium Gluconate 8% used in the Follica trials.

----------


## zeos

hey  lilpauly,
could you please ask Yoram Benit if he is willing to collaborate/cooperate with respectable dermatologists outside of Israel for Pilox trials?

i hope you can help us ,we're all desperate.

thanks in advance!!!!

----------


## lilpauly

> I haven't commented on Pillox much because I'm very skeptical of it, but if Pauly uses it and tells us it works, it'll be amazing news. Who knows, maybe there is something to the whole wounding/ions theory. I doubt it'll be a cure but it could help some early norwoods with regrowth and maintenance. It's apparently gonna be available in less than a year too. I'd like to see someone try it in combination with the Lithium Gluconate 8% used in the Follica trials.


 No man My friends are using it right now !!! I will be using I will kill 2 birds with one stone !! Cosmo used a similar device for cb ,

----------


## hellouser

> No man My friends are using it right now !!! I will be using I will kill 2 birds with one stone !! Cosmo used a similar device for cb ,


 How would we use it with CB?

----------


## lilpauly

> How would we use it with CB?


 Well Cosmo used a ionto device

----------


## hellouser

> Well Cosmo used a ionto device


 Yeah, but what would be the actual process for using CB with it? Someone mentioned there is no compartment to hold other chemicals... so where would the CB go?

----------


## lilpauly

> Yeah, but what would be the actual process for using CB with it? Someone mentioned there is no compartment to hold other chemicals... so where would the CB go?


 Hmmm can't use cb in the morning and Israeli conpounds at night?

----------


## HairBane

> Yeah, but what would be the actual process for using CB with it? Someone mentioned there is no compartment to hold other chemicals... so where would the CB go?


 Yeah I'm confused about the logistics of the device too. Is there a certain amount of zinc or whatever being injected as ions that eventually gets used up?

I guess you could just wound, apply CB, then use the device?

----------


## greatjob!

> Maybe give it a rest , I wonder how many people hellouser has helped by his ru usage guide alone. It's because of guys like him that these forums are worth checking out


 Yeah...hi new guy who has no idea what he's talking about...hellouser has flashes of usefulness, but the vast majority of his posts are over-dramatic, whoa is me, bald people are the biggest victims on the planet posts. If I didn't know better I would assume he could never suffer from baldness because he was castrated due to the fact that he is always acting like a woman....

----------


## greatjob!

Funny the same guys who were riding Nigam's, Gho's, Replicel's, blah, blah, blah's nuts are now riding piloxll's nuts. C'mon people use your brains. 

Oh btw how has "Dr." Nigam been coming along, lol????

----------


## Arashi

> Funny the same guys who were riding Nigam's, Gho's, Replicel's, blah, blah, blah's nuts are now riding piloxll's nuts. C'mon people use your brains. 
> 
> Oh btw how has "Dr." Nigam been coming along, lol????


 Yup. It are always the same people. The gullible, the easy to cheat on & the desperate.

I saw "wolf of wallstreet" yesterday, awesome movie, hehe, main character made an interesting remark when asked why he wasn't selling his scams to rich people: cause they were too smart to be tricked into buying his scams. Just thought that was an interesting thought  :Smile:

----------


## greatjob!

> Hi Travis how are u brother! This marklc , Travis I'm convinced this device is similar to what. Cosmo used for cb,


 


> No man My friends are using it right now !!! I will be using I will kill 2 birds with one stone !! Cosmo used a similar device for cb ,


 So Pauly have you seen or used this device? Originally it was reported that this device worked on the principle of wounding, however it now sounds like you are suggesting that this is some sort of iontophoresis device to deliver a drug.

----------


## locke999

> Yeah...hi new guy who has no idea what he's talking about...hellouser has flashes of usefulness, but the vast majority of his posts are over-dramatic, whoa is me, bald people are the biggest victims on the planet posts. If I didn't know better I would assume he could never suffer from baldness because he was castrated due to the fact that he is always acting like a woman....


 Agreed with you there but I think you have more than once referred to "woe is me" as "whoa is me" so I am just acquainting you with the correct term for future references  :Wink: .

----------


## Atum

> Yup. It are always the same people. The gullible, the easy to cheat on & the desperate.
> 
> I saw "wolf of wallstreet" yesterday, awesome movie, hehe, main character made an interesting remark when asked why he wasn't selling his scams to rich people: cause they were too smart to be tricked into buying his scams. Just thought that was an interesting thought


 Or that only 1% of the human population is rich and the rich are mostly greedy.
And don't confuse being desperate with being dumb.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Yup. It are always the same people. The gullible, the easy to cheat on & the desperate.
> 
> I saw "wolf of wallstreet" yesterday, awesome movie, hehe, main character made an interesting remark when asked why he wasn't selling his scams to rich people: cause they were too smart to be tricked into buying his scams. Just thought that was an interesting thought


 100% of every treatment offered to date has failed. We know that. If we go off of that notion, pilox is probably a failure too. We know that. Nobody is going to be like "Oh arashi was right, he knew it."

With the track record that hair loss treatments have had, it's easy to say you predict this will fail. In fact, it's so easy to say it's almost not worth mentioning.  Again, you're not saving anybody, and you're not impressing anybody. Nobody is going to look back and find your prediction impressive. 


Anyway, back to the science.....

There are peer reviewed articles that back each part of pilox (copper, zinc, ionsophertisis) and the research indicates it's good. I'm very interested to see if pilox works, as nobody seems to have combined all three parts in an effort to stop hairloss.

----------


## Arashi

> And don't confuse being desperate with being dumb.


 That's a good point. I think it's a combination of dumb people and really desperate ones that WANT to believe in scams (again, not talking about Pilox but scams in general)

----------


## bigentries

> That's a good point. I think it's a combination of dumb people and really desperate ones that WANT to believe in scams (again, not talking about Pilox but scams in general)


 I don't have a problem if someone uses scams as long as they don't defend them or lie about the results

A lot of skeptical, intelligent people resort to scams when they have a terminal illness out of desperation, but at least they have the decency of not giving them publicity.

Besides dermarolling, last year I tried two products that I knew pretty well were snake oil, but still trialed them since I read some vague information that they might work. I didn't opened threads about them and kept a low profile, just took pics in case I suddenly grew hair and had to prove it on the internet

----------


## Sogeking

> Yup. It are always the same people. The gullible, the easy to cheat on & the desperate.
> 
> I saw "wolf of wallstreet" yesterday, awesome movie, hehe, main character made an interesting remark when asked why he wasn't selling his scams to rich people: cause they were too smart to be tricked into buying his scams. Just thought that was an interesting thought


 If I choose to hope for something which turns out to fail and not spend any money on it, I was neither gullible nor was I cheated. As for the desperate part
well I think we wouldn't be here if we weren't desperate. Even those non-believers who want to prove this is a scam are desperate enough to do so.
I thought Replicel would be good but it turned out to be a bust however I didn't spend anything on it so how was I cheated?

----------


## hellouser

> If I choose to hope for something which turns out to fail and not spend any money on it, I was neither gullible nor was I cheated. As for the desperate part
> well I think we wouldn't be here if we weren't desperate. Even those non-believers who want to prove this is a scam are desperate enough to do so.
> I thought Replicel would be good but it turned out to be a bust however I didn't spend anything on it so how was I cheated?


 I think those who went for a treatment with Dr. Gho got cheated...

----------


## bigentries

> If I choose to hope for something which turns out to fail and not spend any money on it, I was neither gullible nor was I cheated. As for the desperate part
> well I think we wouldn't be here if we weren't desperate. Even those non-believers who want to prove this is a scam are desperate enough to do so.
> I thought Replicel would be good but it turned out to be a bust however I didn't spend anything on it so how was I cheated?


 You can't compare Aderans, Intercytex, etc., to a scam. Those were very regulated products that couldn't give a damn if you adored them or wanted them to be brought down, their results were going to speak for themselves.

I can't say just being hopeful doesn't make you gullible. With Pilox, it's difficult to say, but only a complete newbie would fall to something like habemu's potion, and we had a couple here.

The problem with scams or possible scams is that just blindly supporting one or not speaking against it makes a lot of damage, a lot of guys that have went to Nigam or Gho just did it because of the free publicity they received in hair loss forums, I bet a majority of them didn't even went for the experimental procedures

----------


## Arashi

> I think those who went for a treatment with Dr. Gho got cheated...


 Yes and no: yes if you were expecting regrowth (although still remains to be seen, I'm pretty confident it's at least nowhere near 80&#37;, if any at all). No if you would settle for just a scarless transplant.

----------


## hellouser

> Yes and no: yes if you were expecting regrowth. No if you would settle for just a scarless transplant.


 It's a thorough YES. He claimed 85% regeneration and so far it looks like the regeneration number is WELL below that mark.

Don't be in denial.

----------


## Thinning@30

For me the difference between Pilox and Nigam was that Nigam was charging people for his unproven procedures and at the same time making all sorts of grandiose claims about what he could do for hair loss sufferers.  He changed protocols, he posted ridiculous photos, the hair counts made no sense, etc.  He was encouraging people to travel to India for procedures, and no doubt using the attention and publicity he was getting abroad to boost his credibility among the Indian public.  Anyone offering an unproven procedure should do so at no charge or at cost as part of a trial with the understanding of the patient that the procedure's efficacy has not yet been proven.  At least the folks behind Pilox weren't selling anything yet (notwithstanding this business about the shady Russian website), they're not making grandiose "stop the presses, we found the cure" statements, and for the moment, they sound serious about gathering proof of efficacy.  For now, I am willing to consider the possibility that they might have something.

----------


## Arashi

> It's a thorough YES. He claimed 85&#37; regeneration and so far it looks like the regeneration number is WELL below that mark.
> 
> Don't be in denial.


 Well, I stated I might  go back to HASCI (depending on development of other therapies), while my standpoint is and has been now for a while, that there's no regrowth, or very little. So how am I in denial exactly ? I just want scarless surgery and right now the only option is HASCI for that. For me, regular FUE with microscarring is just no option cause I like to wear my hair very short.

----------


## hellouser

> Well, I stated I might  go back to HASCI (depending on development of other therapies), while my standpoint is and has been now for a while, that there's no regrowth, or very little. So how am I in denial exactly ? I just want scarless surgery and right now the only option is HASCI for that. For me, regular FUE with microscarring is just no option cause I like to wear my hair very short.


 You are not every other client.

----------


## Pentarou

> Funny the same guys who were riding Nigam's, Gho's, Replicel's, blah, blah, blah's nuts are now riding piloxll's nuts. C'mon people use your brains. 
> 
> Oh btw how has "Dr." Nigam been coming along, lol????


 Have any of Nigam's patients NOT completely disappeared from the hair loss forum community? It's like they've all vanished.

----------


## hellouser

> Have any of Nigam's patients NOT completely disappeared from the hair loss forum community? It's like they've all vanished.


 To be fair... many of the regular members on BTT have recently mysteriously vanished...

----------


## garethbale

> To be fair... many of the regular members on BTT have recently mysteriously vanished...


 Yeah, where are the likes of Too young to retire , and Veca

I contacted Nigam's office last year and they were very quick to respond.  I tried at the beginning of this year and nothing.

I really did hope he might have been on to something, particularly when Mwamba got involved, but seems like Nigam is another charlatan

----------


## kmit028

> Yeah I'm confused about the logistics of the device too. Is there a certain amount of zinc or whatever being injected as ions that eventually gets used up?
> 
> I guess you could just wound, apply CB, then use the device?


 This is from another forum about the device:

In a nutshell It's a device with six metal disks and serve (So i was told, I cannot feel it) some ions/pulses

No needles

the disks are somewhat rugged - like a chainsaw

to my understanding the trick is the copper/zinc coated metal plates delivering the goods via ions and making a new dht free surrounding if that makes sense

----------


## BDDFreak

This was supposed to hit market in 8 months. January's almost over so there's about 7 months left. If this isn't legit I think I'm just gonna bite the bullet and get on propecia.

----------


## locke999

> This was supposed to hit market in 8 months. January's almost over so there's about 7 months left. If this isn't legit I think I'm just gonna bite the bullet and get on propecia.


 Get on propecia now.

I tried it for 2 weeks, had side effects, stopped taking it, now back to normal.

I waited, and tried to take it again, had side effects again, stopped taking, and back to normal again.

It didn't work for me but you might as well try the best thing out there right now instead of waiting until your hair get worst.

----------


## Arashi

We're not allowed to comment here on photo's placed in the private forum but I can say this now (without going into details) : where I previously thought 70&#37; chance of things not going to proof to be something real, I'm now at 95%. vraf pretty much made my case and confirmed my suspicions. I'm not 100% sure yet pilox doesn't work at all (it might work a bit), but at this point I am 99.9% sure at least vraf is working together with Pilox and trying to boast their (marginal) results. I don't think anybody with a decent brain can deny that at this point.

History repeating itself over and over again ...

----------


## Kiwi

> We're not allowed to comment here on photo's placed in the private forum but I can say this now (without going into details) : where I previously thought 70% chance of things not going to proof to be something real, I'm now at 95%. vraf pretty much made my case and confirmed my suspicions. I'm not 100% sure yet pilox doesn't work at all (it might work a bit), but at this point I am 99.9% sure at least vraf is working together with Pilox and trying to boast their (marginal) results. I don't think anybody with a decent brain can deny that at this point.
> 
> History repeating itself over and over again ...


 Eh? What private forums?

----------


## Arashi

> Eh? What private forums?


 If i'd link they'd ban me here. And if i talk about the case they'd ban me there. They already took my posting rights. So, sorry, stuck between a rock and a hard place here ...

----------


## Atum

Why on earth is there even an private forum? 
We are all in the same shelf here, if there is something new in this case than i would like to know it and i think anyone who comes in this thread or on this forum as well.

----------


## bananana

What is going on? Why the sudden negativity?

----------


## Dan26

> Why on earth is there even an private forum? 
> We are all in the same shelf here, if there is something new in this case than i would like to know it and i think anyone who comes in this thread or on this forum as well.


 The piloxx ppl and some involved felt better sharing certain info there (pvt forum) rather than here, and I dont blame them

however since then they've fell victim to butthurtitis and now we know as much as you guys

----------


## Arashi

> What is going on? Why the sudden negativity?


 Well, they functionally already banned me there anyway (they took my posting rights away cause vraf didnt like me being around too much which was reason enough for the mod to take my posting rights), so: vraf posted some pictures: zoomed out, showing his full head and macro photo's zoomed in. When comparing the zoomed in to the zoomed out photo's, they possibly couldn't be from the same area (as vraf claimed). So, he posted fake pictures (or what I believe, from a different patient). The only reason he'd do that of course is that he was working with Yoram all the time. And that makes a LOT of sense. You remember vraf was the guy who went to the hairdresser, then supposedly magically came into contact with a pilox representative, who showed him a book full of result photo's (for a product that was still in prototype stage). That whole story never made ANY sense to me. Why would a pilox rep go to a hairdresser with a book of result photo's for a prototype stage product and show it to arbitrary clients in the shop ? And why was there a book in the first place ?

Anyway, so now it turns out vraf posted fake pictures (there's just no other explanation that would make any sense, the pictures really speak for themselves). So at this point I think it makes sense to write this whole thing off as scam. There's just no other way to look at it anymore.

----------


## locke999

Arashi, you are one of the most logically sound poster on this forum and if you have came to that conclusion then I will also write this off.

----------


## bananana

> Well, they functionally already banned me there anyway (they took my posting rights away cause vraf didnt like me being around too much which was reason enough for the mod to take my posting rights), so: vraf posted some pictures: zoomed out, showing his full head and macro photo's zoomed in. When comparing the zoomed in to the zoomed out photo's, they possibly couldn't be from the same area (as vraf claimed). So, he posted fake pictures (or what I believe, from a different patient). The only reason he'd do that of course is that he was working with Yoram all the time. And that makes a LOT of sense. You remember vraf was the guy who went to the hairdresser, then supposedly magically came into contact with a pilox representative, who showed him a book full of result photo's (for a product that was still in prototype stage). That whole story never made ANY sense to me. Why would a pilox rep go to a hairdresser with a book of result photo's for a prototype stage product and show it to arbitrary clients in the shop ? And why was there a book in the first place ?
> 
> Anyway, so now it turns out vraf posted fake pictures (there's just no other explanation that would make any sense, the pictures really speak for themselves). So at this point I think it makes sense to write this whole thing off as scam. There's just no other way to look at it anymore.


 Oh, can you take screenshots of those pics? Or any other concrete info?
I'm trying to be optimistic here, I need to see proof before making judgement.

----------


## cocacola

At least this one people figured out pretty fast lol! Not like with nigam, he had almost messiah status here.

----------


## TwoInchCircle

> At least this one people figured out pretty fast lol! Not like with nigam, he had almost messiah status here.


 I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss something so soon just because a forum member said they 'saw' something and interpreted it as fake. After all, there was much optimistic thinking based on a forum member 'seeing' something earlier regarding pilox. (And that was dismissed as naive, desperate thinking!)

Until I see these 'faked' images, this is still a viable possibility for me. The science seems sound and the pictures I've seen look good. That's enough to make me wonder if this could be something special.  

Even if these images never surface, we will know if this is real or not within a year anyway. We'll know when we know.

----------


## greatjob!

> I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss something so soon just because a forum member said they 'saw' something and interpreted it as fake. After all, there was much optimistic thinking based on a forum member 'seeing' something earlier regarding pilox. (And that was dismissed as naive, desperate thinking!)
> 
> Until I see these 'faked' images, this is still a viable possibility for me. The science seems sound and the pictures I've seen look good. That's enough to make me wonder if this could be something special.  
> 
> Even if these images never surface, we will know if this is real or not within a year anyway. We'll know when we know.


 Oh the science seems sound does it? Can you explain what is so sound about it?

----------


## bananana

> I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss something so soon just because a forum member said they 'saw' something and interpreted it as fake. After all, there was much optimistic thinking based on a forum member 'seeing' something earlier regarding pilox. (And that was dismissed as naive, desperate thinking!)
> 
> Until I see these 'faked' images, this is still a viable possibility for me. The science seems sound and the pictures I've seen look good. That's enough to make me wonder if this could be something special.  
> 
> Even if these images never surface, we will know if this is real or not within a year anyway. We'll know when we know.


 agreed.

----------


## Thinning@30

Ugh.  Say it ain't so.  I really wanted this stuff to be real.  Everything else in the pipeline is years away from being commercialized.  Arashi, I liked what you did with Nigam.  I thought there might be something to the PiloxII stuff since they were talking about publishing and they seemed to be going about things in a methodical manner.  When Yoram and then Vraf left the other forum it looked really odd, I mean, assuming you're legit, what is the point of engaging the hair loss community if not to face tough questions and cross examination.  We shouldn't tolerate rudeness, but of course people are going to be skeptical and once you post images, people are going to analyze them and come up with all kinds of stuff.  I think it just goes to show, we have to be especially wary of any new treatment that isn't going through formal clinical trials.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Oh the science seems sound does it? Can you explain what is so sound about it?


 I explained in the thread earlier.....give it a read

----------


## NeedHairASAP

the pictures are strange... but I don't see the upside of writing this off so quickly.


The other thing is, we've seen a bunch of really convincing pictures... if they were faking, why would they now leak these obviously strange pictures? It would be a complete 180 from what is in their interest if a scam artist..... am I wrong?

----------


## vraf

> Well, they functionally already banned me there anyway (they took my posting rights away cause vraf didnt like me being around too much which was reason enough for the mod to take my posting rights), so: vraf posted some pictures: zoomed out, showing his full head and macro photo's zoomed in. When comparing the zoomed in to the zoomed out photo's, they possibly couldn't be from the same area (as vraf claimed). So, he posted fake pictures (or what I believe, from a different patient). The only reason he'd do that of course is that he was working with Yoram all the time. And that makes a LOT of sense. You remember vraf was the guy who went to the hairdresser, then supposedly magically came into contact with a pilox representative, who showed him a book full of result photo's (for a product that was still in prototype stage). That whole story never made ANY sense to me. Why would a pilox rep go to a hairdresser with a book of result photo's for a prototype stage product and show it to arbitrary clients in the shop ? And why was there a book in the first place ?
> 
> Anyway, so now it turns out vraf posted fake pictures (there's just no other explanation that would make any sense, the pictures really speak for themselves). So at this point I think it makes sense to write this whole thing off as scam. There's just no other way to look at it anymore.


 
This Arashi guy is so eager for that some day will come and hell be honored with reviling Pilox scam that nothing will stop him, even telling you lies.
I dont mind if he thinks its a scam, I do mind that hes doing the best he can (and cant) to depress you, contrary to what Im trying to do with sharing my info.
His act of depressing you all down with lies should ban him here also.
I do want to make an expectation and give you here, for those who are not familiar with the other forum, the possibility to see, as Arashi words: the pictures (which) really speak for themselves.

----------


## BDDFreak

> This Arashi guy is so eager for that some day will come and hell be honored with reviling Pilox scam that nothing will stop him, even telling you lies.
> I dont mind if he thinks its a scam, I do mind that hes doing the best he can (and cant) to depress you, contrary to what Im trying to do with sharing my info.
> His act of depressing you all down with lies should ban him here also.
> I do want to make an expectation and give you here, for those who are not familiar with the other forum, the possibility to see, as Arashi words: the pictures (which) really speak for themselves.


 Where are the over head shots u also took in comparison to the ones u just posted? That's is what arashi said in comparison looks odd. Not that one picture alone.

----------


## Hair Bear

Interesting, but there is no real way to know if this product really works, I cannot comment first hand unless I was given access to this product but at this stage we'll have to just wait and see.
I guess as long as the lines of communications are kept open then we can all make our own minds as to the validity of this product.
I do admire those which do try to go that extra mile to research products to simplify the process for everyone as long as they are presenting the facts in a detailed and concise manner which I believe Arashi has done so in relation to the entire Nigam debacle however it remains to be seen if he is correct or not concerning piloxll.

----------


## Arashi

I see they now even officially banned me at the private forum. That board is even worse than HS ... Anyway, the upside is I can now talk here freely  :Smile: 

See the comparison picture vraf posted (and arbitrary put some numbers in, seems Nigam was a good teacher there). According to vraf, that after picture corresponds to this zoomed out picture:

http://cdn.imghack.se/images/45895d4...50e79715f5.jpg

If you zoom in on the zoomed out picture , on the crown, you will see the red tattoo and, you can compare side by side. You will get this:

http://www.imghack.se/141831

Pretty much everybody at the private forum agreed that this can simply not be the same picture. Keep in mind that according to vraf these pictures should be from about the same date.

Even the mod there, Monty, who took my posting rights (and then pm-ed me that was an ethical thing to do, LOL, he said I didnt do anything wrong but it was for the greater good, for the good of the board, LOL, cause vraf would come back) pm-ed me and told me he thought pilox was a scam. Which I can now say here too, if they behave like that, no need to be the 'good guy' neither .. So they're not only unethical, they're hypocrites too over there and ban the one guy who's really in search of the truth and speaks his mind freely (and, was right again !)

----------


## Arashi

Anyway, just wanted to thank this board, TBT. It's been the only board where I always could speak my mind freely - the bald truth. They won't ban you if other people simply dont like you and want you to go away. They won't ban you if you say negative things about some 'sponsor'. And unfortunately it seems that's pretty rare these days ...

----------


## vraf

> I see they now even officially banned me at the private forum. That board is even worse than HS ... Anyway, the upside is I can now talk here freely 
> 
> See the comparison picture vraf posted (and arbitrary put some numbers in, seems Nigam was a good teacher there). According to vraf, that after picture corresponds to this zoomed out picture:
> 
> http://cdn.imghack.se/images/45895d4...50e79715f5.jpg
> 
> If you zoom in on the zoomed out picture , on the crown, you will see the red tattoo and, you can compare side by side. You will get this:
> 
> http://www.imghack.se/141831
> ...


 Here you go again with your lies.
I understand your frustration with getting caught lying but keep on lying in order to cover up your former lies its foolish. 

There are two trichscan shaved spots on my head - Left temple and right temple.
The trichscan posted picture are from the right temple while youre trying to compare it with the left one.

How much more fool can you be? Youre making a fun of yourself.

----------


## Arashi

> Here you go again with your lies.
> I understand your frustration with getting caught lying but keep on lying in order to cover up your former lies its foolish. 
> 
> There are two trichscan shaved spots on my head - Left temple and right temple.
> The trichscan posted picture are from the right temple while youre trying to compare it with the left one.
> 
> How much more fool can you be? Youre making a fun of yourself.


 Ah so now you're posting macro pictures for the one and micro pictures for the other !! So then, you won't have any problems sharing the right pictures for the right spot: please show us the macro for that other spot and 'pre op' zoomed out for the other one.

----------


## porta

thanks Vraf, we see now, i got the impression that some "personal issue" is going on with this two guys.

----------


## Arashi

> thanks Vraf, we see now


 What exactly is it you see ? He never spoke about 2 spots, so that's a first and at least clears up some of the confusion. However, there's still a lot of problems. But let's see if he wants to share the right pictures here, would LOVE to see zoomed in post/preop for that other spot and vice versa. He never shared those and I have a feeling that's for a good reason.

And after that, we'll talk about those random numbers you've put in the trichoscan zoomed in picture  :Smile:

----------


## vraf

> Ah so now you're posting macro pictures for the one and micro pictures for the other !! So then, you won't have any problems sharing the right pictures for the right spot: please show us the macro for that other spot and 'pre op' zoomed out for the other one.


 Youre a miserable person Arashi.
As I said, no matter what proof is given, you wouldn't believe Pilox is real even if it grows hair on your head.
Im done putting my energy on you.
Get a life!

----------


## Arashi

> You’re a miserable person Arashi.


 First of all: this board won't ban you if you are critic. However, they WILL put you into moderation queue if you insult people like you're doing now. I haven't reported this yet to he mod but the next time I will. We have respect for each other here.




> As I said, no matter what proof is given, you wouldn't believe Pilox is real even if it grows hair on your head.
> I’m done putting my energy on you.
> Get a life!


 Haha. That's of course the thing any scammer would say: no need to proof it, people will never believe me (it's pretty much what HASCI told me too). You're not exactly building a case here for yourself ...

Anyway, ok then, bye !

----------


## NeedHairASAP

Arashi,


RELEX. It's okay to be wrong once in awhile.... chill on the crusade thing for awhile...

----------


## oppenheimer82

arashi you showed us in here that nigam was not telling us the whole truth, so thank you for that. but from the start, you didn't even give vraf an honest chance plus you should really work on your tone and your attitude.

----------


## Arashi

> arashi you showed us in here that nigam was not telling us the whole truth, so thank you for that. but from the start, you didn't even give vraf an honest chance plus you should really work on your tone and your attitude.


 Well, I'm not exactly the 'sugercoating' type of person, I pretty much always speak what's on my mind. However I don't insult people here. I didnt trust vraf nor Yoram from the start and that I made very clear, but never insulted him, or Yoram (and as you can see, vraf does insult me the other way around, so maybe you should tell him the same thing then).

----------


## 534623

> arashi you showed us in here that nigam was not telling us the whole truth, so thank you for that.


 Exactly, thank you for that. And thank you so much for recommending me to jump into nigam's boat ...

Also thanks to oppenheimer82 for attacking me due to critzing mr. nigam. Thanks!

----------


## kissmyscalp

Pilox is a big fake.

What Vraf wrote on another forum was totally incoherent with regard to the usual development of a product.

he's probably a kid who is bored.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Pilox is a big fake.
> 
> What Vraf wrote on another forum was totally incoherent with regard to the usual development of a product.
> 
> he's probably a kid who is bored.


 
the pics vraf posted have labeled hairs.. the two MACRO images are DEFINITELY the same area....... which means the results are real, and nothing short of amazing. 

So not sure what you're basing your conclusions on......photo evidence or a forum poster? i choose photo evidence, personally.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Well, I'm not exactly the 'sugercoating' type of person, I pretty much always speak what's on my mind. However I don't insult people here. I didnt trust vraf nor Yoram from the start and that I made very clear, but never insulted him, or Yoram (and as you can see, vraf does insult me the other way around, so maybe you should tell him the same thing then).


 
The macro pictures match, what do you have to say about that? You should be happy, not throwing a fit because you made a mistake.

----------


## JJJJrS

> The macro pictures match, what do you have to say about that? You should be happy, not throwing a fit because you made a mistake.


 No they don't, they don't match at all. Anyone can take a two different spots on the scalp, randomly number some hairs, and claim they're the exact same area. Just ask Nigam. 

Let's compare vraf's "analysis" to one I did a year ago. These macro photos though, actually show the same area, 9 months apart, and I think that will be immediately apparent. 

Before:


After - 9 months:


I've annotated the two photos to show the recurring patterns in the hair units. Even though the photos are nine months apart and shot in slightly different conditions, the hairs follow the exact same pattern. There is zero doubt it shows the same area.

With vraf's pictures, there are absolutely no recurring patterns. The only conclusion we can make is that the photos are showing completely different areas of the scalp.

----------


## JJJJrS

Here's a before and after shot of vraf's left side:


The left picture is the before shot and the right picture is the after shot. Only the colour has been slightly adjusted to match between the two photos. 

There is absolutely no difference here. In fact, the before photo looks better!

These vraf and yoram guys can't even get their story straight. Be careful everyone, this is another nigam case. Let's not be gullible and let these con artists exploit any more people

----------


## Arashi

> The macro pictures match, what do you have to say about that?


 What I have to say about that is this: if they really match, then you should have no problem finding the 8 hairs I marked in the before picture in the after picture, right ? 
http://cdn.imghack.se/images/df6f625...bc28ab3b9b.jpg And why are there 3 hairs originating in preop 2 (red) ? And what happened to the thick hair preop 3 (red) ?

What vraf did is put in some arbitrary numbers. There's a lot of hair in the after picture so it's always easy to find a hair somewhat close to the before picture. Anybody can do that. It's like a fortuneteller doing cold-reading,  there's always something that somewhat matches. Of course that's no proof at all. The proof that this is NOT the correct picture lies in the marks that I posted in the above.

----------


## Arashi

And why do you think vraf posted macro/zoomed out pictures for different spots ? Do you think that's a coincidence ? And now he doesn't want to post the correct pictures. Do you really think he just doesn't care ? I'm getting quite a different idea from his posts here ...  :Big Grin: 

And needhairASAP, can you also please post your version of what happened at vraf's barber shop ? Why was there a pilox representative there ? Why was there a booklet when it's still in prototype stage ? Why did this representative show that book to arbitrary clients, anybody who cared, in the shop, while on the other hand there's all this 'hush hush' with private forums etc ? Would love to hear your explanation there mate  :Smile: 

And then there's that russian website, Yoram selling snake oil therapies in the past (accupuncture), 5 years of clinical trial without any evidence. .. you name it, so much stuff that doesnt add up at all here ...

----------


## Arashi

And why is it that Yoram doesnt want to say ANYTHING at all about the method of action of this device ? There are already patents in place ! Yet ... nothing. No explanation at all. And then we see in vraf's photo's not only neogenesis within 2 months, but we see THICK NEW HAIR within 2 months !!! Does that make any sense to you ? You know yourself how long it takes to form thick hair. It makes no sense at all.

And what does Yoram do for a living ? He supposedly had a clinic for years. What did he sell in those years to his clients ?

----------


## porta

Arashi can you elaborate your teory, i mean puting what do you believe to be their strategy.

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi can you elaborate your teory, i mean puting what do you believe to be their strategy.


 What I believe is that they created a device that may (or may not) SOMEWHAT work. In some specific cases it might be beneficial, I don't know. But what I think the strategy is here: they want to pump this product as much as they can and the idea was to create such a big hype (where they pretty much succeeded, 95&#37; of the talk in the private forum was Pilox) that they'd sell tons of product immediately after release. And then, when people would find out after months of testing that their results where not even close to what vraf posted, they had made enough money already and could move on.

If something doesnt work, you'll want to sell as much product as possible in the period that there's uncertainty.

----------


## porta

> What I believe is that they created a device that may (or may not) SOMEWHAT work. In some specific cases it might be beneficial, I don't know. But what I think the strategy is here: they want to pump this product as much as they can and the idea was to create such a big hype (where they pretty much succeeded, 95&#37; of the talk in the private forum was Pilox) that they'd sell tons of product immediately after release. And then, when people would find out after months of testing that their results where not even close to what vraf posted, they had made enough money already and could move on.
> 
> If something doesnt work, you'll want to send as much product as possible in the period that there's uncertainty.


 but in this case would be more easy going to open forums, not the close ones. But ok i understand your point.

You ask what yoram do for living, he work here http://www.ihc-russia.ru/

If you do your "homework" in that site, you'll have a lot of ammo lol.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> but in this case would be more easy going to open forums, not the close ones. But ok i understand your point.
> .


 Good point.

Also, why would they go through patenting and 5 iterations of the product, and 6 years of R&D.....just to sell a snake oil? Could they really cover the last 6 years of investment in 2-6 months of sales... about how long they'd have before the bad reviews started to pile in?

Arashi's theory doesn't add up, yet. 

To me, it's still worth following this story. We will eventually see. I don't understand Arashi's obsession with prematurely identifying it as a scam. Very strange.

----------


## Arashi

> but in this case would be more easy going to open forums, not the close ones. But ok i understand your point.
> 
> You ask what yoram do for living, he work here http://www.ihc-russia.ru/
> 
> If you do your "homework" in that site, you'll have a lot of ammo lol.


 Wow, awesome find !! I see indeed the relation with Yoram's IHC.  There's tons of "interesting" products there LOL  :Big Grin: 

*EDIT* wow that site is a real treasure  :Big Grin:  They even mention accupuncture as basis of the science LOL And Yoram's clinic (IHC) presents reflexology as a viable treatment for hairloss  :Big Grin: 

Thanks Porta, you really made my day  :Smile:

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## Arashi

LOL, there's so much stuff at IHC Russia (Yoram's clinic) that I don't even know where to start (use google (chrome) to translate, cause the interesting stuff is in russian). But if you really believe accupuncture and reflexology can get your hair back, you should probably buy Pilox  :Big Grin: 

So, what do you  think about Yoram now, NeedhairASAP ? Still a honest researcher in your book ?  :Big Grin:  Maybe if you start massaging your feet tonight and stick some needles in your ears, you'll have some hair back in 2 months man. But your friends Yoram and vraf can fill you in how to do that exactly. Good luck !

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> LOL, there's so much stuff at IHC Russia (Yoram's clinic) that I don't even know where to start (use google (chrome) to translate, cause the interesting stuff is in russian). But if you really believe accupuncture and reflexology can get your hair back, you should probably buy Pilox 
> 
> So, what do you  think about Yoram now, NeedhairASAP ? Still a honest researcher in your book ?  Maybe if you start massaging your feet tonight and stick some needles in your ears, you'll have some hair back in 2 months man. But your friends Yoram and vraf can fill you in how to do that exactly. Good luck !


 lol dude relax. You're legit losing your mind over trying to prove this thing wrong. All I've said from the start is let's keep an open, but skeptical mind. Your obsessed with prematurely determining this is a scam.

 r  e  l  a  x

We'll know soon enough. This website doesn't really change my mind one way or the other. I can't imagine any sane person who would immediately dump Pilox because of this website, or anything else thus far.

----------


## bananana

arashi,

god, take it easy.
You have like 20 consecutive posts here, we appreciate your concern, but leave it be for now. Time will tell everything.

----------


## 534623

> LOL 
> 
> hairloss 
> 
> made my day


 Without any doubts ...

----------


## toretto

> LOL, there's so much stuff at IHC Russia (Yoram's clinic) that I don't even know where to start (use google (chrome) to translate, cause the interesting stuff is in russian). But if you really believe accupuncture and reflexology can get your hair back, you should probably buy Pilox 
> 
> So, what do you  think about Yoram now, NeedhairASAP ? Still a honest researcher in your book ?  Maybe if you start massaging your feet tonight and stick some needles in your ears, you'll have some hair back in 2 months man. But your friends Yoram and vraf can fill you in how to do that exactly. Good luck !


 Man,do you have a life???Why do u act as a "white knight"?who gave u this role?for u everything is scam,lies etc..the only thing u do is spreading out negativity on anybody.let me tell u this,nobody cares about your thoughts we don't care if you r 100%sure that something is a scam because you r nobody in order to say that something is legit or not.As for pilox,do the sell something?No!So what's your problem?For sure you r a depressed guy without a girl and friends that try to achieve a kind of fame at least on internet but pls don't bother us with your blablabla theories because lot of people like (that read the forum everyday but doesn't partecipate) is f*****ng fed up with your ego.

----------


## UK_

> Man,do you have a life???Why do u act as a "white knight"?who gave u this role?for u everything is scam,lies etc..the only thing u do is spreading out negativity on anybody.let me tell u this,nobody cares about your thoughts we don't care if you r 100&#37;sure that something is a scam because you r nobody in order to say that something is legit or not.As for pilox,do the sell something?No!So what's your problem?For sure you r a depressed guy without a girl and friends that try to achieve a kind of fame at least on internet but pls don't bother us with your blablabla theories because lot of people like (that read the forum everyday but doesn't partecipate) is f*****ng fed up with your ego.


 because 99.9% of this industry is full of scammers who are selling false hope... hence "THE BALD TRUTH".

We're seeing a new trend of scammers who seem to be coming from countries outside of Europe and America these days.

Until their "cure" is _proven_ (i.e. proven to work in thousands of cases), with a huge western mainstream media attention & the whole balding community are flying over for treatment in droves  -it will always be nothing but a scam.

----------


## toretto

> because 99.9% of this industry is full of scammers who are selling false hope... hence "THE BALD TRUTH".
> 
> We're seeing a new trend of scammers who seem to be coming from countries outside of Europe and America these days.


 True!but it isn't up to him to say if something works or not.Even at this stage when there isn't even a device!!!All of us has eyes and free will and most of all we are be able to discern things and take decisions,we aren t all dumbs as probably he might think.if this device were a scam as arashi says,it doesnt make difference cause it will hit the market,no matter what he says..But only at that time we ll be able to say if it s a scam or not..

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## UK_

> True!but it isn't up to him to say if something works or not.Even at this stage when there isn't even a device!!!All of us has eyes and free will and most of all we are be able to discern things and take decisions,we aren t all dumbs as probably he might think.if this device were a scam as arashi says,it doesnt make difference cause it will hit the market,no matter what he says..But only at that time we ll be able to say if it s a scam or not..


 I never said it was up to him, but he's free to connect the dots and make forum posts.

You say we're "not all dumbs" but you'd be surprised to hear that the market for false hope in the hair loss industry actually measures in the billions when people (all people) should only be spending money on THREE products:

1. Propecia (after researching side effects & making decision)
2. Minoxidil (after researching side effects & making decision)
3. Nizoral (after researching side effects & making decision)

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## JJJJrS

> LOL, there's so much stuff at IHC Russia (Yoram's clinic) that I don't even know where to start (use google (chrome) to translate, cause the interesting stuff is in russian). But if you really believe accupuncture and reflexology can get your hair back, you should probably buy Pilox 
> 
> So, what do you  think about Yoram now, NeedhairASAP ? Still a honest researcher in your book ?  Maybe if you start massaging your feet tonight and stick some needles in your ears, you'll have some hair back in 2 months man. But your friends Yoram and vraf can fill you in how to do that exactly. Good luck !


 Holy shit, they're advocating medical leeches on that ****ing site! This Yoram is the ultimate snake oil salesman. He makes Nigam look like a saint in comparison.

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## Julian P

> but in this case would be more easy going to open forums, not the close ones. But ok i understand your point.
> 
> You ask what yoram do for living, he work here http://www.ihc-russia.ru/
> 
> If you do your "homework" in that site, you'll have a lot of ammo lol.


 How do you know he works there ? I don't see him listed in the "expert"-section.

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## Kudu

I think its interesting that Arashi backs up his claims on why he believes pilox is a scam. Yet, others who believe in pilox just slam him with insults and call him a liar. If this is a decent product then why do people not back up their claims? I haven't seen that much evidence to believe in pilox yet other than a few questionable pictures, an Israeli hair salon, and a sketchy russian website...

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## Dan26

> because 99.9% of this industry is full of scammers who are selling false hope... hence "THE BALD TRUTH".
> 
> We're seeing a new trend of scammers who seem to be coming from countries outside of Europe and America these days.
> 
> Until their "cure" is _proven_ (i.e. proven to work in thousands of cases), with a huge western mainstream media attention & the whole balding community are flying over for treatment in droves  -it will always be nothing but a scam.


 +1000000

Hair loss sufferers are so irrational, it's frightening.

We are all way better off airing on the side of over-skepticism until something is PROVEN.

Arashi at one point I did think you were jumping the gun very slightly as far as judging piloxll (not even on the facts/info and even opinion you presented but more so the tone in your posts). And that tone will certainly illicit an emotional response from emotional people. At this point however your tone is completely justified and anyone who has a problem with it is not using their head.

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## toretto

> I think its interesting that Arashi backs up his claims on why he believes pilox is a scam. Yet, others who believe in pilox just slam him with insults and call him a liar. If this is a decent product then why do people not back up their claims? I haven't seen that much evidence to believe in pilox yet other than a few questionable pictures, an Israeli hair salon, and a sketchy russian website...


 I don t call him liar at all..i m just saying that his role is worthless because people is able to see and realize if something fits or not,even without his continuous attacks against everybody

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## Dan26

> I don t call him liar at all..i m just saying that his role is worthless because people is able to see and realize if something fits or not,even without his continuous attacks against everybody


 ughhh no ppl are not able to see and realize if somethign fits or not and this has been proven time and time again in the hairloss community life in general lol

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## toretto

> I never said it was up to him, but he's free to connect the dots and make forum posts.
> 
> You say we're "not all dumbs" but you'd be surprised to hear that the market for false hope in the hair loss industry actually measures in the billions when people (all people) should only be spending money on THREE products:
> 
> 1. Propecia (after researching side effects & making decision)
> 2. Minoxidil (after researching side effects & making decision)
> 3. Nizoral (after researching side effects & making decision)


 
Sure because lot of us are desperate and fed up that a cure hasn't been discovered yet.But why does he keep on saying in every posts that is a scam?He repeats,repeats and repeats..We got it,this is his thought,and after that u said it already once..why going on everytime???That s it

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## BDDFreak

No point in speculating. It's coming out in 7 months. At this point all we have to do is wait. I'm sure if it works we will all know a month or two after release. Esp since we live in the Internet era where reviews are plentiful. If ppl fall victim to snake oil in this Internet era then they fully deserved to get scammed as they probably did not do the 5 min worth of research it takes to find out if the product they are buying is a scam or not smh. Stashing doesn't need to vehemently defend him self why piloxll is fake (I wouldn't) but I give him props for trying to expose what he sees as wrong).

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## Arashi

> I think its interesting that Arashi backs up his claims on why he believes pilox is a scam. Yet, others who believe in pilox just slam him with insults and call him a liar.


 Yeah unfortunately it always works like that. I just report those posts to the admin, instead of reacting to it. Cause reacting to it will cause any thread to go downhill quickly, I learned that the hard way here  :Smile:

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## porta

> How do you know he works there ? I don't see him listed in the "expert"-section.


 as i say to arashi, do the "homework. I found this in the moment that Yoram name came to the game, i keep quite because i have hope to get more info from the man itself. In that website you will find.

- When he start to work
- How he work (3D Benitah Therapy System)


You have to dig there, using google translator. I'll not put energy bringing the links here because to me that dont say nothing.

He is just a "hair specialist" that work as a consultant to Pilogics iniciative.

Is a scam? i dont believe
Will reverse aga? i dont believe

I believe that this will be a minox + fina alternative, only that.

He is not list - true. But his name and photograph is all over that site  :Wink:

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## BDDFreak

> as i say to arashi, do the "homework. I found this in the moment that Yoram name came to the game, i keep quite because i have hope to get more info from the man itself. In that website you will find.
> 
> - When he start to work
> - How he work (3D Benitah Therapy System)
> 
> 
> You have to dig there, using google translator. I'll not put energy bringing the links here because to me that dont say nothing.
> 
> He is just a "hair specialist" that work as a consultant to Pilogics iniciative.
> ...


 Minox + fun with no side effects would be god send for most of new thinners.

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## Kiwi

> I don t call him liar at all..i m just saying that his role is worthless because people is able to see and realize if something fits or not,even without his continuous attacks against everybody


 Tike a hike Mr 5 post noobie. Arashi has earned his stripes over years of contributing to these forums. Years of watching snake skin mofos come in and out and try to rip people off. 

People like Arashi are here to keep things sensible and calm. 

Piloxll is a guilty until proven innocent. And unless you want to be THOROUGHLY disappointed you should pull your socks up quick smart and start figuring this stuff out.

OR you work for Piloxll / Nigram. In which case we'll find you... we always find you...

----------


## lilpauly

Please just wait until making conclusion about this device ! Like I said more info will be shared , journals , etc. people were givi g this device for free ,

----------


## Hair Bear

For so many free giveaways I have not seen a single picture of device on the internet at all, am I missing something or has the veil of secrecy not been lifted yet?

Is anyone on this forum trialing it out, are you under some NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) or something?

I just find it all very interesting and strange.
I am not part of any private forums however I have tested a number of products and not a single one has lived up to its claims in the slightest and I guess most people are in the same boat, perhaps this is why we are all suspicious of new and emerging products such as this.

I will add that at one stage there was a flood of potential products being delivered which created a bit of buzz but right now this is potentially all we have and with the collapse of ARI (Aderans Research Institute) everyone is a bit weary and frustrated.

At the end of the day I would like to see as much info as possible regarding this device, its method, how it works, etc.

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## BDDFreak

If someone posted a pic of the piloxll device they would be the GOAT lol

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## toretto

> Tike a hike Mr 5 post noobie. Arashi has earned his stripes over years of contributing to these forums. Years of watching snake skin mofos come in and out and try to rip people off. 
> 
> People like Arashi are here to keep things sensible and calm. 
> 
> Piloxll is a guilty until proven innocent. And unless you want to be THOROUGHLY disappointed you should pull your socks up quick smart and start figuring this stuff out.
> 
> OR you work for Piloxll / Nigram. In which case we'll find you... we always find you...


 Sensible and calm????ahahah 
Anyway yes i m working for pilox now,over the last months i worked for nigam and trust me before i worked even for gho!!!o cmon man,how can u say thinghs like that??u find who??don t overstimate yourself because if u think to"find" people like me that has nothing to do whith this project it won t make any difference because probably this or others device will be realesed the same(unfortunately)..trust me,even if we are in two opposite site we r on the same boat!!
And pilox is guilty for what??does it owe u something??did they try to get someone s money??No!!so...

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## Atum

I gotta agree with Arashi, those pics Vraf posted don't add up.

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## bigentries

> Please just wait until making conclusion about this device ! Like I said more info will be shared , journals , etc. people were givi g this device for free ,


 Do you know something we don't? Seems like you are connected to some trialists. Why don't you bring Oogie to the boards?

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## bigentries

> No point in speculating. It's coming out in 7 months. At this point all we have to do is wait. I'm sure if it works we will all know a month or two after release.


 No, we don't need to wait. I hate that excuse, if something works or not, it can be verified with enough analizis and critical thinking




> Esp since we live in the Internet era where reviews are plentiful. If ppl fall victim to snake oil in this Internet era then they fully deserved to get scammed as they probably did not do the 5 min worth of research it takes to find out if the product they are buying is a scam or not smh.


 That's not fair. Everyone had our noob period (for some it has lasted for years!). Desperation makes you do dumb things. When you have places like propeciahelp preaching doom, an snake oil seems like a good option, specially when they have their own reviews and people blindly defending them on discussion boards

----------


## porta

A lot of people are saying that in 8 months we are going to have a answer, no we wont. 

We still going to need 4+ months to get the feedback for those that going to take a stepfoward.

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## BDDFreak

> No, we don't need to wait. I hate that excuse, if something works or not, it can be verified with enough analizis and critical thinking
> 
>  I mean if u want to stress ur self out and spend the time on it, then be my guest. It's not really an excuse, just the reality of it. It's much easier to just not get ur hopes up, live ur life like u would if u never heard about it and when it comes out and works then hey, it's great news, if not you didnt spend too much energy on it. A year is not a long time to wait in the grand scheme of things. Esp when it comes to hair loss treatments. 
> 
> That's not fair. Everyone had our noob period (for some it has lasted for years!). Desperation makes you do dumb things. When you have places like propeciahelp preaching doom, an snake oil seems like a good option, specially when they have their own reviews and people blindly defending them on discussion boards


 And I stand by what I said. If anything worked to the extent most snake oils advertise then everyone would have a full head of hair, or most ppl would anyway. It doesn't take much to come to the conclusion that there are only 3 things that work. Again all it took for me was the simple use of the search function.

----------


## Arashi

> Do you know something we don't? Seems like you are connected to some trialists. Why don't you bring Oogie to the boards?


 Hehe, no lilpauly seems to be a honest guy but he's just very naive in my opinion  :Smile:  He defended Nigam till the very last moment, in fact, I think he still is pro Nigam (btw Tom Just posted on HS that Nigam's doubling failed: " im so sorry for many people who got faith in nigam because of me. I feel really bad for them.. ")

----------


## bigentries

> Hehe, no lilpauly seems to be a honest guy but he's just very naive in my opinion  He defended Nigam till the very last moment, in fact, I think he still is pro Nigam (btw Tom Just posted on HS that Nigam's doubling failed: " im so sorry for many people who got faith in nigam because of me. I feel really bad for them.. ")


 I'm not talking about honesty, we have identified 3 trialists, one seems too attached to the product and is presenting questionable evidence, so why not corroborate it with the other two? One is basically unknown and the other one seems to be unmotivated to use the device

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## Arashi

> I'm not talking about honesty, we have identified 3 trialists, one seems too attached to the product and is presenting questionable evidence, so why not corroborate it with the other two? One is basically unknown and the other one seems to be unmotivated to use the device


 Ok, misunderstood your post then, thought you were making fun of LilPauly. Sorry.

----------


## lilpauly

No man I don't believe in nigam anymore! He is a fraud , I think dr gho is not in the same category as nigam Arashi . Arashi is is your first name arash ?

----------


## Arashi

> No man I don't believe in nigam anymore! He is a fraud , I think dr gho is not in the same category as nigam Arashi . Arashi is is your first name arash ?


 No, "Arashi" is the name of the beach close to my house  :Smile:

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## JJJJrS

Arashi, try google translate on this page:

http://www.ihc-russia.ru/therapy/hirudotherapy/

Looks like Yoram's clinic offers blood-sucking *leeches* as a treatment for hair loss!

It's like they took a time machine to the medieval ages and brought back the worst snake-oil salesman from those days.

----------


## JJJJrS

Also, in case you missed it, I thought you'd appreciate this analysis from the poster dissident:




> Here's a before and after shot of vraf's left side where the red mark is located:
> 
> 
> The left picture is the before shot and the right picture is the after shot. Only the colour has been slightly adjusted to match between the two photos. 
> 
> There is absolutely no difference here. In fact, the before photo looks better!


 This piloxll is such a scam it's not even funny.

----------


## deuce

How about when this comes out 4 or 5 of us buy it.  I volunteer I do not mind losing money if it is a scam.  Then we try it for 6 months.  If there are no results end of conversation and this company barely makes any money.  We spread the word that it is a scam and that is the end of that. How about everyone just kind of chill until then.  No need to get heated my balding brothers.

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## Arashi

> This piloxll is such a scam it's not even funny.


 Thanks for the update JJJJrS, much appreciated. Nice work by dissident !

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi, try google translate on this page:
> 
> http://www.ihc-russia.ru/therapy/hirudotherapy/
> 
> Looks like Yoram's clinic offers blood-sucking *leeches* as a treatment for hair loss!


 WOW. Just ... WOW ... 

needhairASAP is probably happy though ? Next to massaging his feet, sticking needles in his ears and using pilox, his great master Yoram has now even given him another great way of getting his hair back  :Big Grin:

----------


## Parsia

> How about when this comes out 4 or 5 of us buy it.  I volunteer I do not mind losing money if it is a scam.  Then we try it for 6 months.  If there are no results end of conversation and this company barely makes any money.  We spread the word that it is a scam and that is the end of that. How about everyone just kind of chill until then.  No need to get heated my balding brothers.


 Yeah exactly , I don't understand either , and thanks for your dedication to help others , It was very funny which you stated balding brothers in the last sentence ,LOL

----------


## hellouser

> Arashi, try google translate on this page:
> 
> http://www.ihc-russia.ru/therapy/hirudotherapy/
> 
> Looks like Yoram's clinic offers blood-sucking *leeches* as a treatment for hair loss!
> 
> It's like they took a time machine to the medieval ages and brought back the worst snake-oil salesman from those days.


 The page translated into english:




> Girudorefleksoterapii method combines two traditional types of treatment - acupuncture and hirudotherapy.
> 
> In this case, the medical leech acts as a biologically active needle. This is determined by the properties of its secretion of the salivary glands. By mechanical impact (leech bite) activates acupuncture point, responsible for specific organ in the body, there is injection into the bloodstream of the glandular secretions of leeches, containing more than 100 biologically active enzymes.
> 
> Thanks to this procedure, the blood liquefies, tissues and organs are saturated with oxygen, increases immunity at the cellular level, ie is in the process of renovation of blood cells, including those responsible for immunity; adjusted human bio-energy field. As a result girudorefleksoterapii normal trophic tissues, improves hair growth and scalp mobility.
> 
> Girudorefleksoterapiya especially useful to patients suffering from psoriasis. But in fact the medical leech body heals and restores virtually all diseases. Thanks bacteriostatic effects effectively stops infectious processes. By the last item, it is not indicated in the presence of large structures in the kidneys.
> 
> This is a traditional, but very modern medical approach to the use of a living object as a natural medicine. Assigned and procedures should be carried out under the supervision of a qualified person, as any type of medical therapy.
> ...

----------


## JJJJrS

> But in fact the medical leech body heals and restores virtually all diseases.


 Amazing! Hope Yoram includes the leech treatment with piloxll!

Anyone here willing to get their shovels out, dig some holes and trial this out?

----------


## cocacola

Wow its so hard to believe that after being related to ultra snake oils like leeches and other funky stuff on that russian website someone would come up with something scientific.

Yoram will save our hair...

No

----------


## thechamp

So this is another scam anything we get excited about turns in to a scam !

----------


## bananana

I'll still give it time and see. I think this forum is such a rollercoaster, first we're all hyped up and opening moet, next day we're all arashi etc...

This aint working. We'll see when it comes out, if 5 people dont experience any regrowth in 4-5 months - it doesnt work, case closed. Period.
I'm up for it.


Until then...
http://mashable.com/2014/01/27/boston-synthetic-organs/

----------


## Pentarou

I'm now fully in the "this is bollocks" camp. At least this has been exposed fairly quickly.

----------


## thechamp

> I'm now fully in the "this is bollocks" camp. At least this has been exposed fairly quickly.


 So they should delete this thread then?

----------


## Pentarou

> So they should delete this thread then?


 Why? There's lots of threads in this forum section about total and complete bollocks (dermarolling, TRX2, Keratene, Nigam, etc) that aren't deleted. Let the thread remain as a warning to all.

----------


## bigentries

Just for the record, medical leeches (and maggots) have their utility in mainstream medicine

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> WOW. Just ... WOW ... 
> 
> needhairASAP is probably happy though ? Next to massaging his feet, sticking needles in his ears and using pilox, his great master Yoram has now even given him another great way of getting his hair back


 lol guys R E L A X

If you're not interested in Pilox anymore, then leave the thread! Let the people interested in seeing how it plays out do so....

Posting stuff like the leech finding is good, but theres no need to comment uselessly on it over and over and over and over

----------


## bigentries

> lol guys R E L A X
> 
> If you're not interested in Pilox anymore, then leave the thread! Let the people interested in seeing how it plays out do so....
> 
> Posting stuff like the leech finding is good, but theres no need to comment uselessly on it over and over and over and over


 I think it is fair to point it out because, let's admit it, without the skeptics Yoram would still be pushing his agenda unopposed. I never saw you, hellouser, or other proponents ever made the least effort to analyze the evidence, or even question, you just gave the guy a free pass

You don't want people to comment on the conflicts over and over again, but did you had a problem when the majority of the thread was supporting Pilox over and over?

I think we should collect the quotes where everyone was saying "this is real" and "the photos are not fake" or "I dismiss the russian site" as a warning for people to not repeat their naive optimism again. With the state of HM basically doomed for the next couple of year, cases like this are going to rise from time to time

----------


## bigentries

> Another idiotic reply by you, it's a recurring theme.
> 
> In the private forum, RIGHT AFTER one of your comments I clearly stated that Vraf's before and after photos DO NOT MATCH when I examined the pictures by overlaying them in photoshop.
> 
> What the hell is wrong with you?


 Oh yeah, it's cool to see you change your mind, but I mean, most people are already considering Pilox isn't legit, you didn't helped at all when it wasn't the popular opinion.

You could have read the russian site back then, but you didn't
You could have analyzed the pics before everyone started doing it, but for some reason you didn't

I think you should read all your comments in this thread from the beginning and see why you did more damage with your naive optimism

----------


## hellouser

> Oh yeah, it's cool to see you change your mind, but I mean, most people are already considering Pilox isn't legit, you didn't helped at all when it wasn't the popular opinion.
> 
> You could have read the russian site back then, but you didn't
> You could have analyzed the pics before everyone started doing it, but for some reason you didn't
> 
> I think you should read all your comments in this thread from the beginning and see why you did more damage with your naive optimism


 LOL @ you, I never had optimism or pessimism. Until it's proven to work, I have nothing to be excited about.

Quit trolling.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I think it is fair to point it out because, let's admit it, without the skeptics Yoram would still be pushing his agenda unopposed. I never saw you, hellouser, or other proponents ever made the least effort to analyze the evidence, or even question, you just gave the guy a free pass
> 
> You don't want people to comment on the conflicts over and over again, but did you had a problem when the majority of the thread was supporting Pilox over and over?
> 
> I think we should collect the quotes where everyone was saying "this is real" and "the photos are not fake" or "I dismiss the russian site" as a warning for people to not repeat their naive optimism again. With the state of HM basically doomed for the next couple of year, cases like this are going to rise from time to time


 Again, R E L A X dude

I said it was cool to add to the conversation/analysis by posting opposing or confirming evidence (such as the russian site you posted and the scientific peer-reviewed articles I posted that detailed zinc, copper and ionostpoherinismz)... doing this is good. It's the useless "OK THIS IS A SCAM", "OH OKAY THIS IS LEGIT" "ITS A SCAM" "ITS THE REAL THING" "I BELIVE THIS IS A SCAM".... its these posts that just clog the thread and add nothing to it... I get its human nature for people to share their opinions but it doesn't help much...


also, i feel like most of the people you are calling "naively optimistic" are just saying they want to see how it plays out... which makes them "skeptical but curious" not "naively optimistic" 



and I'll be honest, things don't add up for this thing being real. BUT they also don't add up for some of the theories you and arashi propose (that vraf is involved, its a scam, etc.)

There is evidence both ways.. and Yoram isn't charging, and seems to have gone through multiple iterations of his product....so lets just see how it plays out. I agree some evidence you posted is sketchy, but some evidence other's posted is promising.... it just seems too early to call it a scam... it doesn't help anybody to call it before we know for sure.

----------


## JJJJrS

> lol guys R E L A X
> 
> If you're not interested in Pilox anymore, then leave the thread! Let the people interested in seeing how it plays out do so....
> 
> Posting stuff like the leech finding is good, but theres no need to comment uselessly on it over and over and over and over


 I never once saw you complain about overly positive posts. Actually, people like you were hyping this scam like it was the cure for hairloss.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Posts like that are far worse then showing skepticism and exposing inconsistencies like Arashi did. 

In the end, this is a forum and not everyone is naive and gullible enough to get excited about a snake oil. You and the piloxll supporters are going to have to tolerate the skepticism instead of whining like you did to roger_that at hs.

If you have financial ties to a product/treatment like Nigam and Yoram/vraf do, you better expect to be heavily scrutinized. Maybe if people were more vocal against Nigam, there wouldn't have been as many people conned as there were...

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I never once saw you complain about overly positive posts. Actually, people like you were hyping this scam like it was the cure for hairloss.  Posts like that are far worse then showing skepticism and exposing inconsistencies like Arashi did. 
> 
> In the end, this is a forum and not everyone is naive and gullible enough to get excited about a snake oil. You and the piloxll supporters are going to have to tolerate the skepticism instead of whining like you did to roger_that at hs.
> 
> If you have financial ties to a product/treatment like Nigam and Yoram/vraf do, you better expect to be heavily scrutinized. Maybe if people were more vocal against Nigam, there wouldn't have been as many people conned as there were...


 1. I'm not a supporter of pilox. I'm a supporter of waiting til we have more conclusive evidence about pilox. I don't get off at the thought of being "the guy who called it a scam first"

2. Yoram isn't charging anyone in trials, and spending 1000+ on each prototype.... not sure how you can compare this to nigam charging, essentially, full price....

3. All I can say is that I don't think vraf is involved, in my opinion. That portion of your theory doesn't add up at all. Is pilox legit? Only time will tell.

4. At this point, you have some websites to point to as your "evidence"... that's about it. Is it worrying? Yes. Is it damning? Not in my opinion.

5. You're not saving anybody from anything... we're all grown ups here.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I never once saw you complain about overly positive posts. Actually, people like you were hyping this scam like it was the cure for hairloss.  Posts like that are far worse then showing skepticism and exposing inconsistencies like Arashi did. 
> 
> In the end, this is a forum and not everyone is naive and gullible enough to get excited about a snake oil. You and the piloxll supporters are going to have to tolerate the skepticism instead of whining like you did to roger_that at hs.
> 
> If you have financial ties to a product/treatment like Nigam and Yoram/vraf do, you better expect to be heavily scrutinized. Maybe if people were more vocal against Nigam, there wouldn't have been as many people conned as there were...


 I can't tell if you're kidding or if your reading comprehension is that bad.


I said that posting criticism/evidence, like arashi did, is good. It's the baseless posts that are a waste of time.... not being skeptical. Are you following me yet?

----------


## lilpauly

I think if could people report Their results like vraf it would be helpful , elevation is no longer using the device which really sucks , and has been silient as well. Yoram needs to give us more information so people will stop assuming.

----------


## bigentries

> I can't tell if you're kidding or if your reading comprehension is that bad.
> 
> 
> I said that posting criticism/evidence, like arashi did, is good. It's the baseless posts that are a waste of time.... not being skeptical. Are you following me yet?


 That's basically what he said dude, I think you need to read it better

He is complaining about the double standards you and others are guilty. You seem to be upset when skeptics "don't just shut up", but don't have problem when the blind supporters do the same

----------


## bigentries

> I think if could people report Their results like vraf it would be helpful , elevation is no longer using the device which really sucks , and has been silient as well. Yoram needs to give us more information so people will stop assuming.


 What's the NW of that dude?
I can see a guy with BDD and a perfect hairline just half-assing the whole thing, but Elevation takes part in group buys, so he isn't just an average baldie, it doesn't make sense he isn't using this thing and is still buying other experimentals.
He has been silent about Pilox since december while still posting in other places

What about your friend Oogie? Have you convinced him about coming to the forums?

----------


## GuyFromUK

I have come across something really interesting (I think!). It would be good if people on the BTT could do more research into what I have found.

I been doing a few searches into Piloxll and I have come across a website in Greece where they are discussing Piloxll.

It seems that some people on the site are using Piloxll and some people are also buying other similar devices that are already on the market. They are not hairloss devices but they are used for delivering ions in a similar way to Piloxll. So they are buying similar devices to deliver copper and zinc ions into their scalp and then combining it with minoxidil.

Google translate doesn't translate Greek to English very accurately, but from what I can just about make out these guys ARE having REGROWTH based on the use of these ion devices. 

Also I don't think they secretly work for Piloxll as some of them have been members of this site 3 to 4 years and most of them are discussing similar devices to Piloxll that they are buying off Ebay. They are not actually promoting Piloxll - in fact they are doing the opposite by discussing these ion devices which are not linked to Piloxll. 

It seems like these guys on the Greek site are more advanced than us on the BTT in their research into copper and zinc ions and Piloxll.


The Greek website is: http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...18%26bih%3D697


The devices on Ebay are: http://translate.googleusercontent.c...VvgStT7PfS4FYA

and:

http://translate.googleusercontent.c..._5tqWYrsG42H1A




I apologise if I have misunderstood any of this site and have accidently got peoples hopes up, but the site is very difficult to understand even using google translate and I have only read through it quickly! Perhaps someone can spend a bit more time than me analysing it.


Cheers

----------


## Parsia

thanks man . Good job ! This forum need some people like you who try to be positive and try to find some new methods to get rid of this damn hair loss , I appreciate your good searching , Hope guys come and help us to find more information . But as you said it seems they have regrowth with that and its a very good sign .

----------


## Sogeking

> I have come across something really interesting (I think!). It would be good if people on the BTT could do more research into what I have found.
> 
> I been doing a few searches into Piloxll and I have come across a website in Greece where they are discussing Piloxll.
> 
> It seems that some people on the site are using Piloxll and some people are also buying other similar devices that are already on the market. They are not hairloss devices but they are used for delivering ions in a similar way to Piloxll. So they are buying similar devices to deliver copper and zinc ions into their scalp and then combining it with minoxidil.
> 
> Google translate doesn't translate Greek to English very accurately, but from what I can just about make out these guys ARE having REGROWTH based on the use of these ion devices. 
> 
> Also I don't think they secretly work for Piloxll as some of them have been members of this site 3 to 4 years and most of them are discussing similar devices to Piloxll that they are buying off Ebay. They are not actually promoting Piloxll - in fact they are doing the opposite by discussing these ion devices which are not linked to Piloxll. 
> ...


 Hey GuyFromUK thank you for brining this to our attention. I am sure some guys here will check it out thoroughly and let us know.
We have to search any avenue but with sceptical, rational mind. Good of you to let us know!

----------


## bananana

This is very interesting read indeed, but there are no recent posts, do we have anyone greek here? He could ask them how is it going etc?

----------


## GuyFromUK

Has anyone else had chance to research into this yet? What are your thoughts on these devices Hellouser?

----------


## cookies

> No man My friends are using it right now !!! I will be using I will kill 2 birds with one stone !! Cosmo used a similar device for cb ,


 Do you got any more new on this lilpauly?

----------


## breakbot

i am a member of this greek forum,i came here just to inform you that we havent yet delivered our devices which is not piloxll (personally i believe its fake), dont get excited we are just going to examinate iontophoresis ,if hopefully we ve got results i'll inform, bye guys

----------


## GuyFromUK

Hi breakbot, many thanks for joining the BTT forum. Best of luck with your experiment with iontophoresis. I personally agree with you that piloxll is possibly a fake, however it does seem like there is some science behind it and they are doing trials with people from the forums so there is a chance that it is genuine. Please keep us updated with your iontopherosis experiment and best of luck with it! If you start to have any results with it then I am sure there will be lots of people on this forum who will join in the experiment the same as they did with dermarolling.

----------


## UK_

We should invent a device so that every bastard that comes up with a snake oil treatment gets to endure an entire lifetime as a NW7 :Smile: .

----------


## lilpauly

> Do you got any more new on this lilpauly?


 I don't man but I think maybe I can invite vraf to this forum he is using the device , I have high hopes for this device .

----------


## hellouser

> We should invent a device so that every bastard that comes up with a snake oil treatment gets to endure an entire lifetime as a NW7.


 I'll donate to the cause. Let's start off with hunting down Dr. Nigam.

----------


## deuce

> I don't man but I think maybe I can invite vraf to this forum he is using the device , I have high hopes for this device .


 Paully can you please explain why you have high hopes for this treatment?  Thanks man

----------


## Hair Bear

> We should invent a device so that every bastard that comes up with a snake oil treatment gets to endure an entire lifetime as a NW7.


 I'd imagine the device would breakdown before the year would be out.

----------


## hellouser

> I'd imagine the device would breakdown before the year would be out.


 Nah, for some reason it would take 2-5 years before a prototype was developed. *shrug*

----------


## vraf

> i don't man but i think maybe i can invite vraf to this forum he is using the device , i have high hopes for this device .


 אני ל_ א יכו ל לש ל וח כאן הו ד ע ה ל פ ר ט י אז שלח לי אי מ ייל לשם מש תמש שלי בגימ ייל רק תוסיף את הא ות  איי (איי כ מו כו אב)  ו - א ף   ב ס וף ש ם המ ש תמש.

----------


## UK Boy

> אני ל_ א יכו ל לש ל וח כאן הו ד ע ה ל פ ר ט י אז שלח לי אי מ ייל לשם מש תמש שלי בגימ ייל רק תוסיף את הא ות  איי (איי כ מו כו אב)  ו - א ף   ב ס וף ש ם המ ש תמש.


 Anyone able to translate ??

----------


## Jcm800

Sorry, can't read Klingon.

----------


## bigentries

Google translate sucks for hebrew, the translation didn't made any sense

Anyway, people getting excited about Zinc should google Zinc Oxide and hair. The thing was a fad on HLH in the early 2000's. Some even used vitamin c alongside it, so i guess it acted like a "peel"

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Google translate sucks for hebrew, the translation didn't made any sense
> 
> Anyway, people getting excited about Zinc should google Zinc Oxide and hair. The thing was a fad on HLH in the early 2000's. Some even used vitamin c alongside it, so i guess it acted like a "peel"


 You're completely ignoring the importance of the vehicle..... Lots of drugs and compounds don't work/work as well through certain vehicles. This is because of all kinds of things, such as molecule weight, etc. 

Ionto devices use a very interesting delivery system that is, according to several peer-reviewed journals, is one of the best delivery systems. So comparing zinc oxide cream to zinc through ionto devices is moronic.

----------


## bigentries

> You're completely ignoring the importance of the vehicle..... Lots of drugs and compounds don't work/work as well through certain vehicles. This is because of all kinds of things, such as molecule weight, etc. 
> 
> Ionto devices use a very interesting delivery system that is, according to several peer-reviewed journals, is one of the best delivery systems. So comparing zinc oxide cream to zinc through ionto devices is moronic.


 Why is it moronic?

I guess people have a point with CB, if whatever they are buying is the real deal, but why is it the same with zinc? 
Do you have proof that it is "moronic"? What about the molecule weight of zinc, etc?

Doing research from wiki, these are the reported molecular weights
Minoxidil - 209.251 g/mol
Zinc Oxide - 81.408 g/mol

The reported molecular weight of CB on these forums is "402.52" I want to believe they are talking about g/mol. So Zinc is the smallest molecule by far. Is the ionto device really going to make that much a difference than whatever people were doing back in 2003?

----------


## Scientalk56

> אני ל_ א יכו ל לש ל וח כאן הו ד ע ה ל פ ר ט י אז שלח לי אי מ ייל לשם מש תמש שלי בגימ ייל רק תוסיף את הא ות  איי (איי כ מו כו אב)  ו - א ף   ב ס וף ש ם המ ש תמש.


 Translation:

I can't send private message here, so send me an email to my gmail account, just add an "a" and "f" in the end of my username.

__________________________________________________  ___________

You couldn't translate it because there are "spaces" between some of the letters that weren't supposed to be there:

אני לא יכול לשלוח כאן הודעה לפרטי אז שלח לי אימייל לשם משתמש שלי בגימייל רק תוסיף את האות  איי (איי כמו אב)  ו - אף   בסוף שם המשתמש.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> . Is the ionto device really going to make that much a difference than whatever people were doing back in 2003?


 I dont know. Do you?


Moronic was strong, but there is evidence this could work--- copper, zinc, and ionto are all interesting and nobodies put them together in a way that's fine-tuned specifically for hairloss. 

It's interesting.

----------


## rhysmorgan

These are my thoughts on piloxll

1. It has the most unmarketable and forgettable name in human history.  :Big Grin: 

2. The photos seemed convincing, in large quantities, with a standardized format and consistent, or recorded light conditions, exposure etc. 

3. The hair salon story might work for me. This is why:

A. It's not as easy as you think to get good research participants. As a researcher, assuming suitability, if someone approached me to be in my study by calling me up out of the blue, I would jump on them at the first chance. Most researchers could confirm this. 
B. The most efficient way to sell these sorts of products is B2B (business to business) because you can offload large amounts of stock and get money up front for medium-large orders, allowing you to fund manufacturing at the initial product stages. For instance, those who sell cosmetics target salons to buy their whole range for say 500-1000 quid. This part of the story makes perfect sense for me as someone who is a part owner of a beauty salon. 

4. The dispute between two members on the forum about doctored photos seemed to end in the person being accused coming up with a perfectly reasonable explanation regarding him having two tattoos. This seemed to be a non issue. 

Those are just my thoughts. Ultimately we will see, won't we?

----------


## cookies

> I don't man but I think maybe I can invite vraf to this forum he is using the device , I have high hopes for this device .


 I'm more curious about your and your friend's findings with the device. I've already seen vraf's pics on the other forum, but I'd like to hear from other people as well.

----------


## Arashi

> These are my thoughts on piloxll
> 
> 1. It has the most unmarketable and forgettable name in human history. 
> 
> 2. The photos seemed convincing, in large quantities, with a standardized format and consistent, or recorded light conditions, exposure etc. 
> 
> 3. The hair salon story might work for me. This is why:
> 
> A. It's not as easy as you think to get good research participants. As a researcher, assuming suitability, if someone approached me to be in my study by calling me up out of the blue, I would jump on them at the first chance. Most researchers could confirm this. 
> ...


 Those photo's were 100&#37; confirmed fake. The hairs in the macro photo's didn't match and when a forum member corrected the pictures for lighting, there was NO visible change at all. This means that even if the hairs in the macro photo's WOULD match, it still would be from a different patient. In other words, this is 100% UNDENIABLE proof vraf posted fake and doctered photo's. Which means he's working for Pilox and the whole thing is obviously a scam, no way around it anymore.

Then, it turned out Yoram was working for a clinic which sold tons of snake oil therapies, like acupuncture and even therapies where they applied blood suckers to humans to stimulate hairgrowth. If you still believe there's something real here, man,  then you DESERVE to get scammed.

----------


## hellouser

> If you still believe there's something real here, man,  then you DESERVE to get scammed.


 Bollocks.

----------


## Arashi

> Bollocks.


 Seriously if people are that stupid that they still believe there might be something real here then i Couldnt  care less if they get scammed. Normally i hate it when somebody gets scammed but in this case id make an exception

----------


## hellouser

> Seriously if people are that stupid that they still believe there might be something real here then they i Couldnt  care less if they get scammed. Normally i hate it when somebody gets scammed but in this case id make an exception


 This kind of mentality is incredibly arrogant. Essentially you are vouching for a social class that feeds off of another's shortcomings. Pretty disgusting if you ask me.

Nobody deserves to be scammed... not unless your name is Dr. Nigam.

----------


## Jasari

> Seriously if people are that stupid that they still believe there might be something real here then i Couldnt  care less if they get scammed. Normally i hate it when somebody gets scammed but in this case id make an exception


 Take into consideration this forum represents the smallest minority of patients. Most hair loss sufferers have next to no idea where to start in attempting to treat hair loss.

People more often than not will take what they are promised. If I developed a condition I had no understanding for I'd likely buy something which promises a cure.

Coming from a sales background people buy off emotion. More often than not when something affects someone in a deeply emotional way, rationality will tend to go out the window.

----------


## deuce

> Those photo's were 100% confirmed fake. The hairs in the macro photo's didn't match and when a forum member corrected the pictures for lighting, there was NO visible change at all. This means that even if the hairs in the macro photo's WOULD match, it still would be from a different patient. In other words, this is 100% UNDENIABLE proof vraf posted fake and doctered photo's. Which means he's working for Pilox and the whole thing is obviously a scam, no way around it anymore.
> 
> Then, it turned out Yoram was working for a clinic which sold tons of snake oil therapies, like acupuncture and even therapies where they applied blood suckers to humans to stimulate hairgrowth. If you still believe there's something real here, man,  then you DESERVE to get scammed.


 Man this is proven fake too?  Cosmo by some miracle can you hurry up with your product.  Or can we find a vehicle please.

----------


## Pentarou

Yeah, it's pretty much unquestionably a load of crap. At least it's been debunked quickly.

----------


## Arashi

> This kind of mentality is incredibly arrogant. Essentially you are vouching for a social class that feeds off of another's shortcomings. Pretty disgusting if you ask me.
> 
> Nobody deserves to be scammed... not unless your name is Dr. Nigam.


 I dont think its arrogant. I've devoted quite some time to find the truth and see whats real and whats not. Mainly for my self but also to help others. However i still see people defending dr nigam for example, after all that he's done and after all we now know. These were also the kind of people who have been insulting the critics all of the time. If those people get scammed then sorry but i wont lose any sleep over them ...

----------


## rhysmorgan

> Those photo's were 100% confirmed fake. The hairs in the macro photo's didn't match and when a forum member corrected the pictures for lighting, there was NO visible change at all. This means that even if the hairs in the macro photo's WOULD match, it still would be from a different patient. In other words, this is 100% UNDENIABLE proof vraf posted fake and doctered photo's. Which means he's working for Pilox and the whole thing is obviously a scam, no way around it anymore.
> 
> Then, it turned out Yoram was working for a clinic which sold tons of snake oil therapies, like acupuncture and even therapies where they applied blood suckers to humans to stimulate hairgrowth. If you still believe there's something real here, man,  then you DESERVE to get scammed.


 As far as I remember, the debate was based around the hair being different around a tattoo. The other person debating you said it was from a tattoo in the thinner region and from what I could see, this was a reasonable explanation. Unless new information comes to light, I found his explanation to be reasonable.

----------


## rhysmorgan

> Those photo's were 100% confirmed fake. The hairs in the macro photo's didn't match and when a forum member corrected the pictures for lighting, there was NO visible change at all. This means that even if the hairs in the macro photo's WOULD match, it still would be from a different patient. In other words, this is 100% UNDENIABLE proof vraf posted fake and doctered photo's. Which means he's working for Pilox and the whole thing is obviously a scam, no way around it anymore.
> 
> Then, it turned out Yoram was working for a clinic which sold tons of snake oil therapies, like acupuncture and even therapies where they applied blood suckers to humans to stimulate hairgrowth. If you still believe there's something real here, man,  then you DESERVE to get scammed.


 Oh and to assuage guilt by association is a generally problematic way to discredit someone.

----------


## bigentries

> This kind of mentality is incredibly arrogant. Essentially you are vouching for a social class that feeds off of another's shortcomings. Pretty disgusting if you ask me.
> 
> Nobody deserves to be scammed... not unless your name is Dr. Nigam.


 Of course no one deserves to be scammed, no one. I hate charlatans, I have several cases in my family, those shaped me as I grew up

It breaks my heart seeing someone I love to be ripped off because of superticious thinking or ignorance against mainstream medicine. But some if them didn't got the lesson until everything went downhill

It makes you tired, to the point you wish they get scammed already

Take you for example, how many times did I point you out the russian site and you just evaded the question or said you just "dismissed it"? Can't you see how I would wish you to get scammed then? No matter what I said, you just didn't want to listen about it for some reason

That's why I say you need to slow your enthusiasm. The circus you and others did about dermarolling on *** is going to stay forever on the internet, and in a few years a complete noob is going to read all the stories about regrowth in two weeks and semen just to have his hopes destroyed

----------


## Arashi

> The other person debating you said it was from a tattoo in the thinner region and from what I could see, this was a reasonable explanation.


 So you think that's a reasonable explanation, eh ... Then please try to match the blue numbers in this picture that vraf posted:

http://cdn.imghack.se/images/df6f625...bc28ab3b9b.jpg

Good luck with that. Obviously this is a different before-after region. Secondly, this is the colour corrected zoomed out photo: http://postimg.org/image/9bozrpfbt/full/

Now tell me, which one is the before photo and which one is the after photo ? There is NO difference at all ! While there's a huge difference in the macro photo's (which, again, don't even match). 

Then, somebody found the russian clinic Yoram works for. Use google translate to navigate: http://www.ihc-russia.ru/therapy/hirudotherapy/ They offer tons of snake oil therapies, even including blood sucking leeches for hair growth.

Really, Nigam is even a better scammer than those guys at Pilox ...

----------


## Arashi

> It makes you tired, to the point you wish they get scammed already


 And that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Of course nobody 'deserves' to get scammed. But some of those guys on the hairloss forum just won't listen to reason ... Like how somebody at this point can still defend Nigam (like Freddy555 over at HS still does), is really beyond me ... At some point I'm like, ok then, just go to somebody like Nigam already, have him inject some illegal substances, watch your hair in your donor die and say goodbye to your $10.000. Oh and don't come complaining here if you get diagnosed with cancer a few years after visiting Nigam, because he injected illegal, animal grade serum. You were warned a million times.

----------


## deuce

Arashi thanks for your research and expertise.  Do you see anything hopeful in the near future for hairloss suffers that looks promising.  What do you believe in?

----------


## HairBane

> If you still believe there's something real here, man,  then you DESERVE to get scammed.


 


> Of course nobody 'deserves' to get scammed.


 lol

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi thanks for your research and expertise.  Do you see anything hopeful in the near future for hairloss suffers that looks promising.  What do you believe in?


 Two years ago, Tsuji lab took adult DP cells from human donors, basically combined them with epithelial cells, also taken from humans and hair grew: http://www.tsuji-lab.com/en/pdf/Toyo...ncomms1784.pdf

The problem was getting enough of those DP cells: DP cells, unlike the epithelial cells, couldn't be expanded in culture. So, the only last part of the puzzle remained: how to get enough DP cells.

Jahoda showed last year that DP cells CAN be cultured and still be used, unfortunately his method wasn't good enough yet and has to be improved. An other group of researchers in Taiwan has developed a slightly alternate method to culture DP cells and is going to start clinical trials soon: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=15412

There are several groups looking into this last part of the puzzle. Tsuji lab themselves are also not sitting still. They're looking into an alternative source of DP cells: stem cells. Another group of researchers showed us recently that they could take skin cells, convert them into stem cells and then differentiate those into epethelial cells. If this works for DP cells in a similar way, then that's also a solution to the problem.

So, basically, we're just 1 step away from a REAL cure and there are even 2 different possible paths that lead to that cure: culturing DP cells and differentiating stem cells into DP cells. Several groups of researchers are working on it. Clinical trials are even starting soon. I'm confident that we'll have a cure, at least at the preclinical level, within 2 years. Of course it would still need to go through clinical trials, but you can bet your ass that there will be alternatives available in less regulated countries, once the science is out. Of course that's theoretically dangerous but not all those non western doctors are Nigams ...

----------


## Arashi

> lol


 You do realize I'm relativating my previous statement. Hellouser made it look like I don't care about people getting scammed. The opposite is true and that's what motivates me. If I only saved one person from going to Nigam and having lost $10.000, damaged his donor and possibly gotten cancer from animal grade serum, then it was all worth it.

----------


## locke999

> You do realize I'm relativating my previous statement. Hellouser made it look like I don't care about people getting scammed. The opposite is true and that's what motivates me. If I only saved one person from going to Nigam and having lost $10.000, damaged his donor and possibly gotten cancer from animal grade serum, then it was all worth it.


 Arashi, that's very noble but I unlike you don't give a crap if people get scammed or not. If they do not have common sense, then it's their fault. The only reason I would care is that I don't want the scammers to make any money, as I hate them more.

----------


## clarence

We all care... Jarjarbinx get scammed, and we'll all get a break.

----------


## hellouser

> Take you for example, how many times did I point you out the russian site


 Never, actually. Don't be delusional.




> and you just evaded the question


 Hard to evade when you werent the one that point it out.




> or said you just "dismissed it"?


 Yup, I didn't make anything of it because I don't understand Russian.




> Can't you see how I would wish you to get scammed then? No matter what I said, you just didn't want to listen about it for some reason


 You're an idiot, lol.




> That's why I say you need to slow your enthusiasm.


 Please, quote me anywhere from any of the hair loss forums where I showed any kind of 'enthusiasm'. Don't bother though, you won't find any. I was impressed with the photos, I showed curiosity.

Curiosity ≠ Enthusiasm. 




> The circus you and others did about dermarolling on *** is going to stay forever on the internet, and in a few years a complete noob is going to read all the stories about regrowth in two weeks and semen just to have his hopes destroyed


 You have me confused for Squeegee. There was no 'circus' from me.

Question:
Can you please stop being an idiot? You're a broken record posting mostly bullshit.

----------


## Arashi

> Can you please stop being an idiot? You're a broken record posting mostly bullshit.


 Come on guys, let's keep it decent here, no need to go down the Ironman road.

----------


## hellouser

> Come on guys, let's keep it decent here, no need to go down the Ironman road.


 Yeah, let's keep things honest on the forums #trollsneednotcomment

----------


## rhysmorgan

> So you think that's a reasonable explanation, eh ... Then please try to match the blue numbers in this picture that vraf posted:
> 
> http://cdn.imghack.se/images/df6f625...bc28ab3b9b.jpg
> 
> Good luck with that. Obviously this is a different before-after region. Secondly, this is the colour corrected zoomed out photo: http://postimg.org/image/9bozrpfbt/full/
> 
> Now tell me, which one is the before photo and which one is the after photo ? There is NO difference at all ! While there's a huge difference in the macro photo's (which, again, don't even match). 
> 
> Then, somebody found the russian clinic Yoram works for. Use google translate to navigate: http://www.ihc-russia.ru/therapy/hirudotherapy/ They offer tons of snake oil therapies, even including blood sucking leeches for hair growth.
> ...


 Yes I had a look at that myself in detail before you posted the blue numbers. I agree some blue numbers aren't in the same place, but I'd also say that the scalp is a living, moving, object and I'm not entirely sure how static hair follicles would appear over time (skin tightness, hair direction, photograpic conditions, angle, focus etc.) I recall histogen photos had similar apparent 'inconsistencies'.  

My only conclusion to those photos is that they are non conclusive and while there is some stuff to question as you've pointed out, this is in no way enough evidence for me to label pilox a scam, in the same way I cannot confirm the veracity of these photos.

----------


## Scientalk56

Well, as an Israeli, I never heard about Piloxll product thing... and i don't think he will be able to sell it here in israel.. he needs the ministry of health approval. Rules here are strict...that's why i guess he's trying to sell it abroad..

----------


## bigentries

Well, that's what I said it gets tiring after a while hellouser.

Now you are claiming you never saw my links (even when you replied to them) and didn't looked at the site because it was in Russian, even when translations were provided and you explicitly said it was "irrelevant"

It gets tiring after a while to try to explain, quote, present evidence, just to be called an idiot that posts bullshit. No matter what you say, some people never want to admit they were wrong

----------


## Atum

Sad that there aren't international rules against scammers.

----------


## hellouser

> Well, that's what I said it gets tiring after a while hellouser.
> 
> Now you are claiming you never saw my links (even when you replied to them) and didn't looked at the site because it was in Russian, even when translations were provided and you explicitly said it was "irrelevant"
> 
> It gets tiring after a while to try to explain, quote, present evidence, just to be called an idiot that posts bullshit. No matter what you say, some people never want to admit they were wrong


 There's no claim to make, it's a fact you didn't show me anything. I can repeat myself a million times but you're clearly too stupid to comprehend things, but I'll say it again anyway just to expose you; the Russian site was posted on a private forum, I saw some talk about it, briefly looked at it, couldnt understand shit, closed the page and couldnt make anything of it. Talks went on at the forum, suspicions arose and the connections were made with Yoram to other places. But this is all irrelevant anyway as you have access to the forum and can see where and when I made my comments and who find out what about Pilox and so on, it's all archived. But for SOME REASON you're trying to skew the facts.

YOU, however, played no role in those findings. Essentially, you've been an annoyance on that particular forum just as much as you are here, so much so that a number of members PUBLICLY requested that you get banned.

I suspect you have autism.

----------


## bigentries

> There's no claim to make, it's a fact you didn't show me anything. I can repeat myself a million times but you're clearly too stupid to comprehend things, but I'll say it again anyway just to expose you; the Russian site was posted on a private forum, I saw some talk about it, briefly looked at it, couldnt understand shit, closed the page and couldnt make anything of it. Talks went on at the forum, suspicions arose and the connections were made with Yoram to other places. But this is all irrelevant anyway as you have access to the forum and can see where and when I made my comments and who find out what about Pilox and so on, it's all archived. But for SOME REASON you're trying to skew the facts.
> 
> YOU, however, played no role in those findings. Essentially, you've been an annoyance on that particular forum just as much as you are here, so much so that a number of members PUBLICLY requested that you get banned.
> 
> I suspect you have autism.


 Ok, dude whatever you say, it's not like your are not making a fool of yourself

Edit: And check your PMs in the private forum

----------


## Arashi

> I suspect you have autism.


 Ok, that's it, until now I haven't reported your post to the admins, since I felt sorry for you because of your depression and the other issue's you said you were dealing with, but you're really crossing a line now. I reported this post to the admin and will continue to do so everytime you insult a forum member. We all are in the same boat here, we all want the same thing, a cure as soon as possible. No need to get agressive and insult everybody who disagrees with you, like you've been doing now for a while. Have some respect for your fellow baldies here, even if you disagree with what they're saying.

----------


## bigentries

> Ok, that's it, until now I haven't reported your post to the admins, since I felt sorry for you because of your depression and the other issue's you said you were dealing with, but you're really crossing a line now. I reported this post to the admin and will continue to do so everytime you insult a forum member. We all are in the same boat here, we all want the same thing, a cure as soon as possible. No need to get agressive and insult everybody who disagrees with you, like you've been doing now for a while. Have some respect for your fellow baldies here, even if you disagree with what they're saying.


 Not to mention that, WTF. He has called me autistic, having a 90 point IQ. What the hell is this guy? a bigot? 
I wonder what his clients would think about the things he posts around here. Imagine if he posts that kind of things from work

----------


## Arashi

> Not to mention that, WTF. He has called me autistic, having a 90 point IQ. What the hell is this guy? a bigot? 
> I wonder what his clients would think about the things he posts around here. Imagine if he posts that kind of things from work


 Hellouser said he's dealing with a severe depression and some other issue's. So I cut him some slack before. But he's been fighting with a lot of people recently and really crossing a line now, behaviour like this should not be tolerated here. Hopefully the mods will agree.

----------


## lilpauly

Please fellas enough! I like all three of u guys ! Hellouser brings alot of good information and he is very smart . Arashi I like u as well, u are my Persian  brother! Lets stay focus friends , on finding the cure

----------


## Arashi

> Please fellas enough! I like all three of u guys ! Hellouser brings alot of good information and he is very smart . Arashi I like u as well, u are my Persian  brother! Lets stay focus friends , on finding the cure


 I liked hellouser from the start, he made quite a few good contributions to the forum. But after he entered his depression things got a lot worse and his attitude totally changed, he's now continually fighting with people and insulting everybody who he disagrees with. This should not be tolerated here, regardless of the reasons behind it. Disagreeing with somebody is what we do all the time here, that's what a forum is all about and can lead to new perspectives, but no reason to resort to all kinds of nasty insults.

----------


## hellouser

> Ok, that's it, until now I haven't reported your post to the admins, since I felt sorry for you because of your depression and the other issue's you said you were dealing with, but you're really crossing a line now. I reported this post to the admin and will continue to do so everytime you insult a forum member. We all are in the same boat here, we all want the same thing, a cure as soon as possible. No need to get agressive and insult everybody who disagrees with you, like you've been doing now for a while. Have some respect for your fellow baldies here, even if you disagree with what they're saying.


 LOL, are you kidding me? This guy has been on my nuts repeating the same load of crap over and OVER and OVER again, basically posting lie after lie just to fit his agenda. And youre going to report MY posts?


Dat logic.

----------


## hellouser

> *Hellouser said he's dealing with a severe depression* and some other issue's. So I cut him some slack before. But he's been fighting with a lot of people recently and really crossing a line now, behaviour like this should not be tolerated here. Hopefully the mods will agree.


 Just like bigentries, this is FALSE. I've never said I have severe depression. I may have and probably did say hair loss is depressing, but both you and bigentries are posting lies. The hell is wrong with you guys? I'm getting tired of some of you NOT sticking to the facts.

And don't act butt hurt here just because the other forum members forced you out the piloxii thread. I actually was the first one to bring forth your concerns about PiloxII at Stop AGA because they were valid points, but you went apewild with some of the things in that thread and got ousted.

----------


## thechamp

Is there any hope for piloxii??

----------


## hellouser

> Is there any hope for piloxii??


 It's still kind of early to tell, you have to take into consideration that the hair cycle:

anagen phase, 26 years (occasionally much longer)
catagen phase, 23 weeks
telogen phase, around 3 months

So really, before all hair gets around to the treatment it could be approximately 4 months. I saw another forum member say that zinc reduces DHT (followed by him saying 'FACT.') so hopefully the science behind it is real, perhaps Desmond could verify as he's (IMO) the most reliable contact for facts on hair growth.

----------


## thechamp

> It's still kind of early to tell, you have to take into consideration that the hair cycle:
> 
> anagen phase, 26 years (occasionally much longer)
> catagen phase, 23 weeks
> telogen phase, around 3 months
> 
> So really, before all hair gets around to the treatment it could be approximately 4 months. I saw another forum member say that zinc reduces DHT (followed by him saying 'FACT.') so hopefully the science behind it is real, perhaps Desmond could verify as he's (IMO) the most reliable contact for facts on hair growth.


 Haven't people true zinc shampoos and topical a before?

----------


## hellouser

> Haven't people true zinc shampoos and topical a before?


 Shampoos wont do anything, stuff gets mostly caught in hair, then rinsed out moments later. As a topical, hard for me to say without knowing its molecular weight and the vehicle for it. If CB is any indication of how much of a problem a proper vehicle is for a topical, than a zinc treatment could be bollocks depending on the vehicle itself (or application).

----------


## Arashi

> Just like bigentries, this is FALSE. I've never said I have severe depression. I may have and probably did say hair loss is depressing, but both you and bigentries are posting lies. The hell is wrong with you guys? I'm getting tired of some of you NOT sticking to the facts.


 Well you actually did say that and numerous times:
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...34&postcount=2
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...7&postcount=25
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...6&postcount=52
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...9&postcount=14
"I'm TIRED of feeling as if I'm always on the shit end of the stick. I've got other issues too but I'm not going to get into them. Essentially my life's been one struggle after another. Nothing seems to work out for me."

"I guarantee you, the amount of thought and stress I cant shake off from my hair loss would deem me clinically depressed"

Maybe you exaggerated ? I don't know but I felt that was the reason you've become so agressive and insulting. Neitherless, whatever the reason, drop that man and discuss here without throwing those nasty insults like you've been doing lately.




> And don't act butt hurt here just because the other forum members forced you out the piloxii thread. I actually was the first one to bring forth your concerns about PiloxII at Stop AGA because they were valid points, but you went apewild with some of the things in that thread and got ousted.


 That's not how it went. The admin sent me a message that he wanted me to stop posting, cause only then vraf would come back. Then I quoted that on this forum and the admin there then banned me. Whatever. Somebody sent me the last few posts there and it's become the new home om JarJarbinx and the likes, so who cares anyway.

----------


## thechamp

> Shampoos wont do anything, stuff gets mostly caught in hair, then rinsed out moments later. As a topical, hard for me to say without knowing its molecular weight and the vehicle for it. If CB is any indication of how much of a problem a proper vehicle is for a topical, than a zinc treatment could be bollocks depending on the vehicle itself (or application).


 Could zinc also be toxic ?

----------


## hellouser

> Well you actually did say that and numerous times:
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...34&postcount=2
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...7&postcount=25
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...6&postcount=52
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...9&postcount=14
> "I'm TIRED of feeling as if I'm always on the shit end of the stick. I've got other issues too but I'm not going to get into them. Essentially my life's been one struggle after another. Nothing seems to work out for me."
> 
> Maybe you exaggerated ? I don't know but I felt that was the reason you've become so agressive and insulting. Neitherless, whatever the reason, drop that man and discuss here without throwing those nasty insults like you've been doing lately.
> 
> ...


 Yeah, nowhere in those comments did I say 'severely depressed'. Thanks for proving my point.

But I see how it is, basically you and Bigentries want to get a pass for posting lies and when I tell him to piss off and he continues to post lies YOU somehow get offended?

So what if you got offended? You're an adult, DEAL WITH IT. I'm offended when I see Justin Bieber on television.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Arashi

> Yeah, nowhere in those comments did I say 'severely depressed'. Thanks for proving my point.
> 
> But I see how it is, basically you and Bigentries want to get a pass for posting lies and when I tell him to piss off and he continues to post lies YOU somehow get offended?
> 
> So what if you got offended? You're an adult, DEAL WITH IT. I'm offended when I see Justin Bieber on television.


 you said "clinically depressed" and that you have a "bunch of other issues". Whatever. If you think your behaviour is normal, then continue doing it, I'll keep reporting your posts until you get in moderation queue. This forum has become such a nicer place to visit since they put Ironman  there, I'm sure same thing will happen if they do that to you too. If you don't fix your attitude, I'm sure the admin will.

----------


## hellouser

> Could zinc also be toxic ?


 Well considering that I sometimes take supplements of zinc to reduce my tinnitus (potentially, doesnt really works but ive noticed it can help a little sometimes), I'd say no, its not toxix, BUT apparently excess amounts of it can be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_toxicity

----------


## thechamp

How do we replicate piloxii delivery method ?

----------


## hellouser

> you said "clinically depressed" and that you have a "bunch of other issues". Whatever. If you think your behaviour is normal, then continue doing it, I'll keep reporting your posts until you get in moderation queue. This forum has become such a nicer place to visit since they put Ironman  there, I'm sure same thing will happen if they do that to you too. If you don't fix your attitude, I'm sure the admin will.


 Cool, then I'll start reporting your posts in regards to lies and skewing of facts, equally with bigentries. I'll start with the last few in this thread seeing how youre way off and instigating without cause.

Thanks for the tip.

----------


## Arashi

> Cool, then I'll start reporting your posts in regards to lies and skewing of facts, equally with bigentries. I'll start with the last few in this thread seeing how youre way off and instigating without cause.
> 
> Thanks for the tip.


 If you think I lied about anything, then please tell me what exactly. Also would like to know which facts I skewed according to you. Thanks.

----------


## hellouser

> If you think I lied about anything, then please tell me what exactly. Also would like to know which facts I skewed according to you. Thanks.


 Don't backpedal. You seem so shocked now that you're being called out. You're acting like you did on *******. There's a reason why members there chased you out of the forums. Admin did his part because enough members had enough of you. Now they're onto bigentries.

----------


## Arashi

> Don't backpedal. You seem so shocked now that you're being called out. You're acting like you did on *******. There's a reason why members there chased you out of the forums. Admin did his part because enough members had enough of you. Now they're onto bigentries.


 You're accusing me of lying and twisting things. I ask you to cough up the evidence, where is it ?

I'm sure bigentries will be banned too though. That forum isnt an open forum. You can't speak freely there. If vraf tells the mods he'll leave if they don't ban you, you WILL get a ban.

----------


## Arashi

And just FYI, the mod there, sent me a PM that even he thought vraf and pilogics were scammers. He wanted vraf to cough up more 'evidence' so he would expose himself. I just dont see why, he already was caught posting fake pics, why would anyone want more evidence ?

----------


## hellouser

> You're accusing me of lying and twisting things. I ask you to cough up the evidence, where is it ?


 Read your last few comments here making claims about me. Fighting with everyone? I didn't know bigentries was everyone?




> I'm sure bigentries will be banned too though. That forum isnt an open forum. You can't speak freely. If they don't like your opinion, they'll ban you.


 No, you got banned because you preemptively accused/suggested Yoram of being a scam artist.

Bigentries will get banned for trolling as he does here; repeating the same thing a million times and annoying everyone, in BTT's case, me by making members on the forum believe I said something I didn't... but you wont report THAT, will you?

----------


## Arashi

> Read your last few comments here making claims about me. Fighting with everyone? I didn't know bigentries was everyone?


 I've seen you fighting with several forum members and you've been throwing nasty insults. Do you really want me to look up all those posts ? I'll do that if you cough up the evidence that I lied.





> No, you got banned because you preemptively accused/suggested Yoram of being a scam artist.


 See one of my last post there in that thread (if they didnt delete it). The mod said he sent a PM to both vraf and me. He did. In that PM he said I couldnt post anymore because only then vraf would stay. Then I posted some stuff on this forum and that's why they banned me. If you dont believe me, send Boldy a PM there, he'll tell you.

Now again, tell me, where did I lie ?

----------


## lilpauly

Enough! Lets not derail the thread . I hope vraf will be posting weekly pics in here for us please lets stay focused , Arashi my Persian brother u did good work with nigam but please keep an open mind

----------


## hellouser

> I've seen you fighting with several forum members and you've been throwing nasty insults. Do you really want me to look up all those posts ? I'll do that if you cough up the evidence that I lied.
> 
> See one of my last post there in that thread (if they didnt delete it). The mod said he sent a PM to both vraf and me. He did. In that PM he said I couldnt post anymore because only then vraf would stay. Then I posted some stuff on this forum and that's why they banned me. If you dont believe me, send Boldy a PM there, he'll tell you.
> 
> Now again, tell me, where did I lie ?


 You've already been told, lol. Severe depression and 'fighting with everyone' but now youre taking back your words and changing it to several people when in reality its just Bigentries. There was some ridiculousness from greatjob a while back, but I've completely ignored him for a while now. You can find all this with the forums search function, but you don't seem to have a good grasp on that either since you failed to show evidence of your 'severe depression' claim.

Just drop it dude, stick to calling out doctors as scammers, you do a great job there.

----------


## Arashi

> You've already been told, lol. Severe depression


 You've said: 


> I guarantee you, the amount of thought and stress I cant shake off from my hair loss would deem me clinically depressed. I'm TIRED of feeling as if I'm always on the shit end of the stick. I've got other issues too but I'm not going to get into them. Essentially my life's been one struggle after another. Nothing seems to work out for me."


 Clinically depressed, that to me is quite severe. Maybe you exaggerated but that's what you said.

----------


## hellouser

> You've said: 
> 
> Clinically depressed, that to me is quite severe.


 I said drop it or I'll report you.

----------


## Arashi

> Enough! Lets not derail the thread . I hope vraf will be posting weekly pics in here for us please lets stay focused , Arashi my Persian brother u did good work with nigam but please keep an open mind


 Agreed, I've had enough of this too. Let's drop it. Just keep in mind that I'll report all insults you (hellouser) make from now on to the mod. And that's that.

----------


## locke999

Arashi,

No need to argue with Hellouser. In his mind, he is always right.

There has been more than a few people who has a problem with the way he has been posting (including me and several others so I don't know why he is saying that only bigentries has a problem with him. When he doesn't have it his way he will lash out with a temper tantrum and call people trolls. 

He ignores posts he can't refute, and then come back to complain later.

I am completely in agreement with you, one of the better poster who think with logic and not emotions. And by his tone on this forum, I wouldn't be surprised if he does have some form of depression.

----------


## One

This is Dr. Nigam:

http://www.mid-day.com/articles/mumb...ating/15102051

Share guys!

----------


## vraf

> Enough! Lets not derail the thread . I hope vraf will be posting weekly pics in here for us please lets stay focused , Arashi my Persian brother u did good work with nigam but please keep an open mind


 i will not post here but i do want to talk with you. i can't PM here so send me an email to vraf100@gmail.com

----------


## NeedHairASAP

"Iontophoresis provides for controlled delivery rates (through variations of current density, pulsed voltage, drug concentration and ionic strength). It eliminates gastrointestinal incompatibility, erratic absorption, and first pass metabolism. It reduces side effects and avoids the risks of infection, inflammation, and fibrosis associated with continuous injection or infusion since it is non-invasive. It enhances patient compliance with a convenient and non-invasive therapeutic regimen, and decreased dosing frequency. It improves efficacy by continuous release and decreases the total dose and dosing frequency."

http://www.ijdvl.com/article.asp?iss...241;aulast=Rai

----------


## Atum

> Could zinc also be toxic ?


 If I am not mistaken to much zinc increases the chance of prostate cancer.

----------


## thechamp

When and how can we try this treatment ?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> When and how can we try this treatment ?


 _Should_ be available for sale within the next year

----------


## greatjob!

Without even knowing details of the treatment, the fact that the people involved with it refuse to post on forums if anyone questions them or contradicts them in anyway is all the proof you need that this is more than likely BS.

----------


## Arashi

> Without even knowing details of the treatment, the fact that the people involved with it refuse to post on forums if anyone questions them or contradicts them in anyway is all the proof you need that this is more than likely BS.


 Indeed, vraf rather posts on a board who'll ban anyone he doesn't like. People like him don't like free speech.

----------


## bigentries

> Indeed, vraf rather posts on a board who'll ban anyone he doesn't like. People like him don't like free speech.


 I'm starting to think they warned Elevation from divulging anything, it doesn't make sense he hasn't talked about it in months and is still trying experimental treatments.

The fact that vraf claimed he couldn't talk about Elevation's situation because of Pilox's policies made me wary about it

----------


## Gjm127

Had left for a while, can't seem to find out if this hope is dead...

Any updates? What's going on here?

----------


## Arashi

> Had left for a while, can't seem to find out if this hope is dead...
> 
> Any updates? What's going on here?


 vraf was caught posting fake pictures. Yoram's clinic turned out to be a massive seller of snakeoil therapies including leechers for hairgrowth, so yeah I guess you can conclude hope is dead for this one ...

Good news though for the last month: A group of Taiwanese researchers is starting a 400 person clincial trial with their DP culture technology and Jahodo's group is going to do a presentation at WCHR2014 about the improvements of their DP culture technology.

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## Bocaj

> Without even knowing details of the treatment, the fact that the people involved with it refuse to post on forums if anyone questions them or contradicts them in anyway is all the proof you need that this is more than likely BS.


 Good thing I looked at the title of this thread. I thought you were referring to something else  :Big Grin:

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## greatjob!

> good thing i looked at the title of this thread. I thought you were referring to something else :d


 lol

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## rhysmorgan

> vraf was caught posting fake pictures. Yoram's clinic turned out to be a massive seller of snakeoil therapies including leechers for hairgrowth, so yeah I guess you can conclude hope is dead for this one ...
> 
> Good news though for the last month: A group of Taiwanese researchers is starting a 400 person clincial trial with their DP culture technology and Jahodo's group is going to do a presentation at WCHR2014 about the improvements of their DP culture technology.


 Personally I think this is a little premature. My opinion would be that yes, it is unlikely to be as effective as they say it is (or even real; we all know the hairloss industry) however, the initial trial photos were very convincingly shot, and I think one forum member's photos' inconsistencies and an association of the lead researcher is not enough to fully discount the potential of this product. 

We will see, it's a crapshoot!

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## rhysmorgan

> Without even knowing details of the treatment, the fact that the people involved with it refuse to post on forums if anyone questions them or contradicts them in anyway is all the proof you need that this is more than likely BS.


 This is not all the proof you need. It's not a good sign, but it certainly doesn't completely negate the quality of the initial trial photos, and the possibility they were of real efficacy.

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## greatjob!

> This is not all the proof you need. It's not a good sign, but it certainly doesn't completely negate the quality of the initial trial photos, and the possibility they were of real efficacy.


 How do you know what proof *I* need?

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## rhysmorgan

> How do you know what proof *I* need?


 Read your comment again.

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## bananana

any news?

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## Arashi

> any news?


 No. People at the private forum tell me that vraf has been posting his 4 month result but there's no difference at all so far. But who cares about a guy who has been caught with fake pictures in the first place. Why wouldnt he try to fake it again ? But so far he hasn't done it again and after 4 months there's no difference to be seen.

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## hellouser

> No. People at the private forum tell me that vraf has been posting his 4 month result but there's no difference at all so far. But who cares about a guy who has been caught with fake pictures in the first place. Why wouldnt he try to fake it again ? But so far he hasn't done it again and after 4 months there's no difference to be seen.


 Well at least his hair isn't worse.... lol.

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## LMS

I'd say there is some noticeable improvement. Still to early to form a conclusion but like always don't hold your breath.

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## Arashi

> I'd say there is some noticeable improvement. Still to early to form a conclusion but like always don't hold your breath.


 I've seen the photo's, one could get the impression there's a difference if you compare the last to the first photo but that's  due to the angle and lighting (also look at the nose to get an idea of the different angle and see the hair color for difference in lighting). Compare the first photo to the one from a week ago and that one actually looks WORSE than his first photo, 4 months ago !!

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## vraf

> No. People at the private forum tell me that vraf has been posting his 4 month result but there's no difference at all so far. But who cares about a guy who has been caught with fake pictures in the first place. Why wouldn't he try to fake it again ? But so far he hasn't done it again and after 4 months there's no difference to be seen.


 You exploits the fact that I dont write here and continue lying to people. 
How miserable and desperate you have to be in order to lie and destroy people hope? 

Guys,  IVE NEVER POSTED FAKED PICTURES!!!! 

This man wants Pilox to  be declared as  scam so bad so he has no problem to deceive you again and again. 
BEWARE!!!

It will take long time till Pilox will be on the market, long enough for you to realize and see facts that Arashi is just another liar with interests and Pilox is real. 

(now he will pump the thread with many posts so this one will be forgotten behind... :Smile:  )

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## HairBane

> You exploits the fact that I dont write here and continue lying to people. 
> How miserable and desperate you have to be in order to lie and destroy people hope? 
> 
> Guys,  IVE NEVER POSTED FAKED PICTURES!!!! 
> 
> This man wants Pilox to  be declared as  scam so bad so he has no problem to deceive you again and again. 
> BEWARE!!!
> 
> It will take long time till Pilox will be on the market, long enough for you to realize and see facts that Arashi is just another liar with interests and Pilox is real. 
> ...


 Show us some convincing pictures here then. It seems to me that Arashi has no motivation to lie about this, where as you may well have some monetary incentive. Put up or shut up though.

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## Arashi

> You exploits the fact that I don’t write here and continue lying to people. 
> How miserable and desperate you have to be in order to lie and destroy people hope? 
> 
> Guys,  I’VE NEVER POSTED FAKED PICTURES!!!! 
> 
> This man wants Pilox to  be declared as  scam so bad so he has no problem to deceive you again and again. 
> BEWARE!!!
> 
> It will take long time till Pilox will be on the market, long enough for you to realize and see facts that Arashi is just another liar with interests and Pilox is real. 
> ...


 You didnt post any fake pictures ? So you deny that YOU posted this picture: http://cdn.imghack.se/images/df6f625...bc28ab3b9b.jpg ? And then you call ME the person with interest ? LOL. Tell me then, which procedure am I pumping here ? It is YOU who is pumping a procedure. Don't turn things around. And it is YOU who chose to post only on boards where people get banned when they voice criticism.

And then you talk about being miserable. Tell me then, how miserable are you when you sell snake oil therapies to people and tell them they should apply blood sucking leechers to their arms and hair will grow ? And stick needles in their ears and tell them hair will grow ? That's the kind of stuff Yoram sells to desperate baldies, to earn his living. And you say that I am the miserable one ? How do guys like you and him sleep at night, knowing that they make their living by selling lies to people who actually did honest work to make their living ?

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## bigentries

> You exploits the fact that I dont write here and continue lying to people. 
> How miserable and desperate you have to be in order to lie and destroy people hope? 
> 
> Guys,  IVE NEVER POSTED FAKED PICTURES!!!! 
> 
> This man wants Pilox to  be declared as  scam so bad so he has no problem to deceive you again and again. 
> BEWARE!!!
> 
> It will take long time till Pilox will be on the market, long enough for you to realize and see facts that Arashi is just another liar with interests and Pilox is real. 
> ...


 Destroy people's hopes?
You only destroy people's hopes if you expose a lie. If your thing works, no hopes are destroyed. 

Why do you claim it will take "long time"? Didn't you claim the thing was going to come out in 8 months?

You already have a place were people are only allowed to praise you, if you want to scam people you have plenty of victims there

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## bananana

any news on this? vraf?

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## HairBane

> any news on this? vraf?


 News update on pilox as of April 2014: it's still a scam lol

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## deuce

> News update on pilox as of April 2014: it's still a scam lol


 Lol true.  Cannot believe I was vulnerable enough to believe this trash.

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## bananana

come on guys, nobody even saw the product yet.

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## brunobald

Call me gullible but I have been following Vrafs photos and I believe there is something to Pilox. As with any treatments you have to stay sceptical until you see results yourself but I think people can at least hold a little hope that this may provide a side effect free alternative to the big three. 

Yoram is backing up his claims with quailty documentation and the patent is well writen and filed for the majourity of the world. You cannot fake that(Ie listed on google patents etc..), and it IS expensive to do so. Plus the technology is not Yorams it came from a world renowed univerisity, ask them and they will confirm it. So its hard to see what is so fake about Pilox. Its rare that universities ever release fake technology for scam purposes if ever.

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## hellouser

> Call me gullible but I have been following Vrafs photos and I believe there is something to Pilox. As with any treatments you have to stay sceptical until you see results yourself but I think people can at least hold a little hope that this may provide a side effect free alternative to the big three. 
> 
> Yoram is backing up his claims with quailty documentation and the patent is well writen and filed for the majourity of the world. You cannot fake that(Ie listed on google patents etc..), and it IS expensive to do so. Plus the technology is not Yorams it came from a world renowed univerisity, ask them and they will confirm it. So its hard to see what is so fake about Pilox. Its rare that universities ever release fake technology for scam purposes if ever.


 I looked at his recent photos as well and there does seem to be some progress. Like all current shitty treatments, the progress is minimal but his hair loss definitely isn't worse than what it was before.

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## youngin

> Call me gullible but I have been following Vrafs photos and I believe there is something to Pilox. As with any treatments you have to stay sceptical until you see results yourself but I think people can at least hold a little hope that this may provide a side effect free alternative to the big three. 
> 
> Yoram is backing up his claims with quailty documentation and the patent is well writen and filed for the majourity of the world. You cannot fake that(Ie listed on google patents etc..), and it IS expensive to do so. Plus the technology is not Yorams it came from a world renowed univerisity, ask them and they will confirm it. So its hard to see what is so fake about Pilox. Its rare that universities ever release fake technology for scam purposes if ever.


 Wheres the patent?

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## Arashi

> Call me gullible but I have been following Vrafs photos and I believe there is something to Pilox. As with any treatments you have to stay sceptical until you see results yourself but I think people can at least hold a little hope that this may provide a side effect free alternative to the big three. 
> 
> Yoram is backing up his claims with quailty documentation and the patent is well writen and filed for the majourity of the world. You cannot fake that(Ie listed on google patents etc..), and it IS expensive to do so. Plus the technology is not Yorams it came from a world renowed univerisity, ask them and they will confirm it. So its hard to see what is so fake about Pilox. Its rare that universities ever release fake technology for scam purposes if ever.


 You forget about those fake pictures they've put up and all other shadie stuff (like the fact that Yoram is selling the most crazy snake oil therapies I have ever seen, like blood sucking leeches WTF). So vraf is still updating ? Why even follow a guy who was caught with fake pictures in the first place ? I don't understand that at all. What makes you think a guy who clearly has an interest is going to change his life and stop posting fake stuff ? Wouldnt it be likely he's on fut + minox anyway ?

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## bananana

> You forget about those fake pictures they've put up and all other shadie stuff (like the fact that Yoram is selling the most crazy snake oil therapies I have ever seen, like blood sucking leeches WTF). So vraf is still updating ? Why even follow a guy who was caught with fake pictures in the first place ? I don't understand that at all. What makes you think a guy who clearly has an interest is going to change his life and stop posting fake stuff ? Wouldnt it be likely he's on fut + minox anyway ?


 I vote we give it a chance, at least wait till the product is available. I wont go into fake photos from vraf, I didnt follow the topic in details, I dont know there the first photos came from, but they certainly look legit. 

I'm waiting till it comes out...

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## lilpauly

> You forget about those fake pictures they've put up and all other shadie stuff (like the fact that Yoram is selling the most crazy snake oil therapies I have ever seen, like blood sucking leeches WTF). So vraf is still updating ? Why even follow a guy who was caught with fake pictures in the first place ? I don't understand that at all. What makes you think a guy who clearly has an interest is going to change his life and stop posting fake stuff ? Wouldnt it be likely he's on fut + minox anyway ?


 My Persian brother please give it time , pics look good , arash u were right about mr nigam

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