# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  So how close are we to a new 'cure'

## sausage

I am on the verge of deciding whether or not to have a hair transplant within the next 6 months........

But day to day I hear about another potential cure/treatment which is listed on this forum. 

Ideally I would like some views on how close we are to a significant step up from hair transplantation and current meds.........

What is out there that is looking promising.

Aderans
Histogen
Replicel
Stem Cell therapies
Something else.

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## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i like this thread,,,,,

can someone also enlighten us about ghos progress in hst 3.0 or how its called?

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## walrus

Intervention with the pdg2 pathway seems to have the most potential for the near future.

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## BoSox

According to Follica, I believe we are extremely close. I'd hold off on surgery, just maintain for now. It's coming soon.

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## TravisB

I think the NW7->NW1 cure won't come anytime soon. It might be even decades before we'll see it. The best chance is of course hair cloning, donor regeneration etc.. It's hard to imagine that they could have non surgical cure i.e. you inject something and BOOM you have NW1 soon.

However IMO there's a better chance we might see preventative cure that will keep our existing hair forever (i.e it will permamently protect our hair from DHT, prostaglandins etc.) in the near future. I don't think it'll happen earlier than 2020 unfortunately.

Remember that in early 2000s people also thought we would have a cure by now for example because of Intercytex. And what we have now? That's right - shit!

So I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now we still had nothing.

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## sausage

> According to Follica, I believe we are extremely close. I'd hold off on surgery, just maintain for now. It's coming soon.


 Follica hasn't proven anything yet though....

I am also guessing that by Follicas's method, hair will be prone to the effects of DHT, so the hair, over time, will fall out...

This would be annoying but if you could get treatment to counter-act the receding hair etc easily and at low cost then I guess I could cope.

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## youngin

Nigam is the only one being really proactive. At this rate he will probably crack the code and have a treatment before anyone else. IMO

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## thechamp

> According to Follica, I believe we are extremely close. I'd hold off on surgery, just maintain for now. It's coming soon.


 Where is the evidence that follica has the cure

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## KO1

I believe we are many years, if not generations away from a "cure".

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## hellouser

> I believe we are many years, if not generations away from a "cure".


 Your belief is wrong.  :Smile:

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## TravisB

> Your belief is wrong.


 And what do you base your opinion on?

So far we haven't seen anything even remotely close to a cure. They grow single hairs all the time. No one was able to create cosmetically significant result yet.

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## hellouser

> And what do you base your opinion on?
> 
> So far we haven't seen anything even remotely close to a cure. They grow single hairs all the time. No one was able to create cosmetically significant result yet.


 Lausters work and Tsuji Labs isn't remotely close to a cure?

Wow.

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## KO1

What exactly has Lauster done? We have been hearing about his groundbreaking work for years. Clinical trials? I don't believe he is even focused on AGA, and is focusing on drug delivery via hair follicles.

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## hellouser

> What exactly has Lauster done? We have been hearing about his groundbreaking work for years. Clinical trials? I don't believe he is even focused on AGA, and is focusing on drug delivery via hair follicles.


 Lauster's work was aimed at eliminating the need for testing products on animals, thus he created artificial skin WITH hair follicles from stem cells. This was 3 years ago. Basically, he made an endless supply of follicles as well as skin for cosmetic companies to test their products on. He did say plans for clinical trials for hair restoration via follicle creation were under way, but that was also 3 years ago and nobody has heard anything since.

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## sausage

I think everything we have heard about is up in the air one way or another....

Several methods even if they worked would still be prone to DHT. There is nothing to say that anything in progress is capable of creating solid results. Dr Nigam I am afraid to say seems hard to believe because of other things he does.

It is hard for any of us to know what is really happening out there. I personally cannot wait much longer....

I think I will proceed with my research into a hair transplant and may be close to going ahead with it.

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## FearTheLoss

Nobody knows when a "cure" or something as good as one is going to be released. I would say realistically in the next 15 years for sure. 

That being said, we will have treatments better than minox and propecia in the next 3-5 years...thank god

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## sausage

> Nobody knows when a "cure" or something as good as one is going to be released. I would say realistically in the next 15 years for sure. 
> 
> That being said, we will have treatments better than minox and propecia in the next 3-5 years...thank god


 What treatments 'better than minox and propecia' are on the way?

I assume you mean topical, pills/oral medication? I have not heard of any such emerging medications to rival both of those.....interesting....

What is the latest on these? Do they regrow hair or just maintain it?

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## hellouser

> Nobody knows when a "cure" or something as good as one is going to be released. I would say realistically in the next 15 years for sure. 
> 
> That being said, we will have treatments better than minox and propecia in the next 3-5 years...thank god


 For NW5+ its going to be a pretty shit state for a while, but for NW3 and below its definitely an exciting time.

If Tsuji Labs pulls through with the potential benefits of the new regulations, then we should all go out and pop open a LOT of champagne.

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## KO1

NW3 and below don't need any new treatments. If they can tolerate fin (or Dut or CB) an HT would set them up very well for many years. Someone less than NW3 can't even be noted as balding.

OTOH, if this treatment is primarily going to be useful for <NW3's who can't tolerate fin, then it's no use to the majority of men losing their hair.

Now if it is primarily to thicken up miniaturized hairs, it could be useful to men whose MPB is still transitioning.

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## KO1

I think cell implantation based treatments like Nigam, ARI, Replicel are best for men with an active pattern of hair loss, and such a treatment will "shrink" the transition zone. But for really good results, they'll need to take current meds, as Boldy noted, to make the environment less toxic.

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## hellouser

> NW3 and below don't need any new treatments. If they can tolerate fin (or Dut or CB) an HT would set them up very well for many years. Someone less than NW3 can't even be noted as balding.
> 
> OTOH, if this treatment is primarily going to be useful for <NW3's who can't tolerate fin, then it's no use to the majority of men losing their hair.
> 
> Now if it is primarily to thicken up miniaturized hairs, it could be useful to men whose MPB is still transitioning.


 NW3 and below can't be considered balding? Where do you think balding starts? Do you think guys MAGICALLY become an NW3+ overnight?

While my hair density is high enough not to go noticed as balding, its still relatively thin. Combine that with my lousy hairline and its a pretty lousy site.

Finasteride shouldn't even be on the market considered what it does to mens sexual life. That alone makes it a writeoff of a solution. Quit being complacent with Finasteride, the shit needs to be replaced with something superior.

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## KO1

> NW3 and below can't be considered balding? Where do you think balding starts? Do you think guys MAGICALLY become an NW3+ overnight?
> 
> While my hair density is high enough not to go noticed as balding, its still relatively thin. Combine that with my lousy hairline and its a pretty lousy site.
> 
> Finasteride shouldn't even be on the market considered what it does to mens sexual life. That alone makes it a writeoff of a solution. Quit being complacent with Finasteride, the shit needs to be replaced with something superior.


 Yes, many people do become a NW3+ overnight. I did. NW2 is a mature hairline and not balding. Hairloss does not progress in a linear fashion from NW1-NW7. NW3 is the lowest state, and can easily be solved with a hair transplant. 

Finasteride is a great treatment for hairloss, and every man who is losing his hair should seriously consider it, ideally before that hairloss becomes visible. Side effects are overblown and exaggerated, and it remains THE gold standard for treatment, and nothing has surpassed it yet.

If guys catch it early, the vast majority of men will never need HM/ARI/Replicel. Oh, and those treatments won't stop the progression of hair loss the way fin will. If the treatment is only good for Sub3's, then it's nothing to get excited about.

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## TravisB

Nvm

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## FearTheLoss

> Nvm


 That was a safety trial...that showed to be better than anything we have on the market today PLUS it is going to be improved in the dosage trial.

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## hellouser

> That was a safety trial...that showed to be better than anything we have on the market today PLUS it is going to be improved in the dosage trial.


 There was mention that they changed their method as well, an improvement afaik.

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## KO1

I think Replicel's treatment will be great for diffusers...like me actually.  :Smile:  In many cases, there are a lot of miniaturized hair shafts that need to be thickened up.

I suspect for men who have thick, but receding hair, it may not be as good. But just a guess.

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## FearTheLoss

No RepliCel is supposed to create NEW follicles as well as repair damaged and dormant follicles.

Step 6:

http://www.replicel.com/hair-regener...-preplacement/

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## TravisB

> I think Replicel's treatment will be great for diffusers...like me actually.  In many cases, there are a lot of miniaturized hair shafts that need to be thickened up.
> 
> I suspect for men who have thick, but receding hair, it may not be as good. But just a guess.


 http://www.replicel.com/wp-content/u...ts_Dec2012.pdf

Here Replicel wrote that their procedure has potential to become PERMANENT solution for hair loss.

So it means that maybe effects of the treatments will not diminish in time

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## FearTheLoss

RepliCel is working on "The Cure"

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## hellouser

> http://www.replicel.com/wp-content/u...ts_Dec2012.pdf
> 
> Here Replicel wrote that their procedure has potential to become PERMANENT solution for hair loss.
> 
> So it means that maybe effects of the treatments will not diminish in time


 Another reason why finasteride should be a FOOTNOTE in hair loss history.

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## KO1

> http://www.replicel.com/wp-content/u...ts_Dec2012.pdf
> 
> Here Replicel wrote that their procedure has potential to become PERMANENT solution for hair loss.
> 
> So it means that maybe effects of the treatments will not diminish in time


 
How? The native DP cells are still sensitive to androgens. This also does nothing to address the progenitor cell deficit.

Replicel has never even demonstrated that they can generate new follicles, the most I expect them to do is revitalize miniaturized follicles.

If the above is the case, then you will still need finasteride for good results.

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## sausage

Even if Replicel can create new follicles - can they survive the attack of DHT?

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## hellouser

> Even if Replicel can create new follicles - can they survive the attack of DHT?


 Likely, the cells will be taken from a patients DHT-Free zone.

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## sausage

> Likely, the cells will be taken from a patients DHT-Free zone.


 You know what will happen, as soon as they slice my head open in the surgery room someone will announce a cure has been created and I'll be shouting "SEW ME BACK UP"

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## hellouser

> You know what will happen, as soon as they slice my head open in the surgery room someone will announce a cure has been created and I'll be shouting "SEW ME BACK UP"


 I don't think Replicel's method is that intense. Aderans I heard is supposed to take a 1cm x 1cm sample though.

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## sausage

> I don't think Replicel's method is that intense. Aderans I heard is supposed to take a 1cm x 1cm sample though.


 no, i mean when I go for a hair transplant....as I am having it done a proper cure will probably be announced knowing my luck.

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## hellouser

> no, i mean when I go for a hair transplant....as I am having it done a proper cure will probably be announced knowing my luck.


 Well, if you want results NOW, I'd say go for it. But its a safe bet nothing will be out for at least another year. 2 years imo is the earliest. But if Aderans got up to speed next year could be possible, and if SkinMedica didn't have shitheads at their company, their failed lawsuit would have enable Histogen to release a product by now.

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## KO1

IF they create new follicles, I suspect yes, they will be DHT resistant.

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## Pentarou

> Your belief is wrong.


 KO1 is easily one of the most knowledgeable people here, so unfortunately he is most likely right about this. These new treatments are a long way away.




> Another reason why finasteride should be a FOOTNOTE in hair loss history.


 I don't think it will be for a very long time, even when/if CB-03-01 is widely available. I'm well aware of its severe limitations, but it works, and has plenty of data behind it, so it going to be part of the hair loss battler's arsenal for the foreseeable future.

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## Conpecia

> Finasteride is a great treatment for hairloss, and every man who is losing his hair should seriously consider it, ideally before that hairloss becomes visible. *Side effects are overblown and exaggerated*, and it remains THE gold standard for treatment, and nothing has surpassed it yet.


 
this is an insult to a lot of guys on this forum. myself included. i'd appreciate it if you just wouldn't speak on stuff you clearly know little about.

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## Pentarou

> *NW3 and below don't need any new treatments.* If they can tolerate fin (or Dut or CB) an HT would set them up very well for many years. Someone less than NW3 can't even be noted as balding.


 Respectfully, I strongly disagree. A NW2 can still look genuinely balding if diffuse, and the existing treatments can do little to thicken their hair. Also, diffuse balders cannot get hair transplants at present. New treatments are sorely needed for low Norwoods, although I do agree with you that unfortunately that won't be any time soon.

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## KO1

> Respectfully, I a disagree. *A NW2 can still look genuinely balding if diffuse*, and the existing treatments can do little to thicken their hair. Also, diffuse balders cannot get hair transplants at present. New treatments are sorely needed for low Norwoods, although I do agree with you that unfortunately that won't be any time soon.


 Maybe I just have low standards then.  :Smile:

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## Pentarou

Also, don't forget that finasteride doesn't work forever, so even if a NW1 guy with very, very early visible hair loss isn't "cured" by fin no matter how long they take it.

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## hellouser

> KO1 is easily one of the most knowledgeable people here, so unfortunately he is most likely right about this. These new treatments are a long way away.
> 
> 
> I don't think it will be for a very long time, even when/if CB-03-01 is widely available. I'm well aware of its severe limitations, but it works, and has plenty of data behind it, so it going to be part of the hair loss battler's arsenal for the foreseeable future.


 Vast knowledge or none at all, its a joke to say we're a long way away... whats that supposed to mean anyway, several generations away, as in, not in our lifetime? We *are* close. When in history have we ever been able to create skin and follicles? Lauster's already done it. Case closed.

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## hellouser

> Also, don't forget that finasteride doesn't work forever, so even if a NW1 guy with very, very early visible hair loss isn't "cured" by fin no matter how long they take it.


 It  doesn't work for everyone either.

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## KO1

> Also, don't forget that finasteride doesn't work forever, so even if a NW1 guy with very, very early visible hair loss isn't "cured" by fin no matter how long they take it.


 I disagree on this point. You have seen the 10 year fin study? Some develop sides down the line, and need to get off for sure, but most do ok.

I agree that we need more treatments, but the whole "it's great for NW3's" just doesn't strike me as particularly exciting. But every bit helps.

Also, I am not as knowledgeable as you suggest, I'm just regurgitating publicly available info.  :Smile:

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## Pentarou

> Vast knowledge or none at all, its a joke to say we're a long way away... whats that supposed to mean anyway, several generations away, as in, not in our lifetime? We *are* close. When in history have we ever been able to create skin and follicles? Lauster's already done it. Case closed.


 It's not that simple, unfortunately. I mean, for example there was a study in 1959 (1959!) on scalp dermabrasion causing neogenesis of follicles, basically an earlier version of what Follica is attempting with their supposed treatments - that didn't mean that a dermabrasion treatment or cure was just round the corner.

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## KO1

Yeah...this is the study I think. Heck, Breedis first saw regeneration in rabbits in 1954....and what the hell happened to this line of research until 2007?


That being said, hellouser has a point that we're moving a lot faster than before. If more doctors thought like Nigam, maybe we'd have gotten there faster. I just don't think the pipeline is that strong.

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## DepressedByHairLoss

Hellouser, you're right.  A cure or at least a very effective treatment is not that far away at all.  You actually posted something very encouraging the other day about how Japan is likely expediting all clinical trials on stem cell procedures.  This could make Team Tsuji's hair regrowth methods available to us sooner rather than later.  And if Aderans and Replicel moved their operations to Japan, we could have their treatments available to us in the near future.  

One thing KO1 is right about is that if more doctors thought like Dr. Nigam, then we'd be in much better shape.  But instead, most doctors are content on churning out hair transplants like there's no tomorrow and not innovating in any way.

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## hellouser

> One thing KO1 is right about is that if more doctors thought like Dr. Nigam, then we'd be in much better shape.  But instead, most doctors are content on churning out hair transplants like there's no tomorrow and not innovating in any way.


 Thats because they took a page out of the corporate world, companies like Apple, or Bell Communications in Canada:

Do as little as possible while continuously charging inflated rates for the same crappy service. Sit back, and watch the stream of money pour in.

They have no need to improve if they're making profits... and they're making a KILLING as it is.

A new company needs to emerge and slap the shit out of these stone age crooks and bring a new and superior treatment that the public needs and wants. This is all about dollars... theres no room for empathy, and if you don't agree with that, just think a little harder about the slow process for finding a cure to baldness and the constant gimping society has done for us. Its disgusting.

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## bibz

> Respectfully, I strongly disagree. A NW2 can still look genuinely balding if diffuse, and the existing treatments can do little to thicken their hair. Also, diffuse balders cannot get hair transplants at present. New treatments are sorely needed for low Norwoods, although I do agree with you that unfortunately that won't be any time soon.


 Totally wrong, in the next 10 years all nw1-2 and 3 will be cured for sure, the question is for the totally bald guyz, its a different case, i think that we will not be able to see a nw6-7--->nw1 in the next 10 years.
And thanks to histogen or replicel the diffuse balding guyz will get a serious help.

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## bibz

Guyz seriously, some people just don't get it, the founds of Costarelis and follica's team(PGD2, FGF9 and others in the furtur certainly..) are HUGE, we will be cured that's ****ing sure.

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## TravisB

> It's not that simple, unfortunately. I mean, for example there was a study in 1959 (1959!) on scalp dermabrasion causing neogenesis of follicles, basically an earlier version of what Follica is attempting with their supposed treatments - that didn't mean that a dermabrasion treatment or cure was just round the corner.


 Yes, follicular neogenesis caused by wounds was known since a long time, but scientists didn't know the further mechanism behind it, or how to help the hair caused by wounding grow. Now Follica seems to be cracking it (hopefully)

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## rdawg

This is a tough one to answer.

I think we are extremely close to FINDING that cure, or at least something that will cause significant growth or reinforcement.

Histogen already has proven to at least cause some growth, so in terms of an improved product, we already have one coming within a few years.

I think overall though, we are piecing together what is actually causing growth and maintainence.

PGD2, FGF9, all things that are causing us to get closer and closer to a solution, which is reason to be cautiosly optimistic.

are we 2-3 years close? no, but within 10 years(probably closer to 5), I think at least two more much better solutions will become available, as it seems they are finding things faster and faster and we have many more companies working on it than we did before.

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## greatjob!

Anyone saying a cure will be here in x amount of years is pulling that number out of their ass and basing it purely on speculation. Is there really good research going on? Yes. Is there a single shred of evidence that a successful treatment is coming anytime soon? No.

Everyone hear is saying "I think" a cure is coming, "this doctor is supposed to be doing" ect. This is all prue speculation based on very little information. No one here knows when a treatment is coming, but we will spend 50 pages of nonsense making wild assumption.

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## TravisB

I think by 2020 we should have something new on the market, hopefully better than Propecia + Minox (otherwise it doesn't make sense to release it).

2018 earliest, but I wouldn't count on it

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## Pentarou

> This is a tough one to answer.
> 
> I think we are extremely close to FINDING that cure, or at least something that will cause significant growth or reinforcement.


 Unfortunately, even if a real 'cure' is found fairly soon, that doesn't mean that whatever it is would be available to purchase anytime soon after. (Unless of course it's something that can be accomplished through self-medication, off-label usage of existing drugs, or a home made dermabrasion contraption, but that is not likely.) We have to be realistic, ask the guys who've been on these forums for 5 to 10 years or more, they expected to be fixed by now, and learnt the hard way to not expect too much too soon.

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## cichlidfort

All I know is whoever finds a better solution then Fin will make a boatload of money. The race is on for these companies...you would think. In a sense though, it's a comforting thought knowing my kids one day will never have to deal with this crap (I am 24).

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## Californication

^You're a better man than me then. That aint that comforting to me, only annoying.

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## Chromeo

> Anyone saying a cure will be here in x amount of years is pulling that number out of their ass and basing it purely on speculation. Is there really good research going on? Yes. Is there a single shred of evidence that a successful treatment is coming anytime soon? No.
> 
> Everyone hear is saying "I think" a cure is coming, "this doctor is supposed to be doing" ect. This is all prue speculation based on very little information. No one here knows when a treatment is coming, but we will spend 50 pages of nonsense making wild assumption.


 Totally agree. No-one has a clue, really. Pure speculation.

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## cichlidfort

> Totally agree. No-one has a clue, really. Pure speculation.


 But I think it's safe to say there will be some type of product that is better than Fin in the next 3-5 years. I mean crap, in 5 years if we still haven't figured anything out the I have lost faith in humanity. This is ridiculous how painfully slow this is taking. Fin might be a solution to some but to others it's god awful.

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## Chromeo

> But I think it's safe to say there will be some type of product that is better than Fin in the next 3-5 years. I mean crap, in 5 years if we still haven't figured anything out the I have lost faith in humanity. This is ridiculous how painfully slow this is taking. Fin might be a solution to some but to others it's god awful.


 Would like to agree with you but unfortunately things seem to move painfully slowly with regards to hairloss treatments. Even when things seem to be snowballing in terms of "breakthrough" discoveries, I would err on the side of caution (pessimism) in thinking that a viable cure is still years, if not a decade or so away. But again...it's all speculation. I hope I'm wrong.

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## KO1

Ahh time...Imperato-McGinley first noted the pseudo-hermaphrodites' 5AR deficiency in 1974, and 25 years later we got Propecia.

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## rdawg

> Unfortunately, even if a real 'cure' is found fairly soon, that doesn't mean that whatever it is would be available to purchase anytime soon after. (Unless of course it's something that can be accomplished through self-medication, off-label usage of existing drugs, or a home made dermabrasion contraption, but that is not likely.) We have to be realistic, ask the guys who've been on these forums for 5 to 10 years or more, they expected to be fixed by now, and learnt the hard way to not expect too much too soon.


 Fair enough, but if something is found and has very concrete evidence behind it I could easily wait the 3-5 years it takes to get to market and owuld have alot of comfort knowing it's coming.

even seeing the research done and things like Histogen in the pipeline, there are more solutions on the way! Just have to see if they really help us. For now we have the grey market I suppose, and the hope that one of these things we find ourselves may actually work in the meantime(i.e Cetirizine or something).

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## greatjob!

> But I think it's safe to say there will be some type of product that is better than Fin in the next 3-5 years. I mean crap, in 5 years if we still haven't figured anything out the I have lost faith in humanity. This is ridiculous how painfully slow this is taking. Fin might be a solution to some but to others it's god awful.


 Like I said before, I would love to believe that a better treatment is not too far off, but your 3-5 year claim is based completely on pure speculation. What evidence do you have that a better treatment will be here in 3-5 years? Sure there are far more people working on research now than before but there is zero evidence that we will have a viable treatment anytime soon. I don't base my reality on hopes and wishes, I base my reality on proof and evidence. To this point we have no real evidence that a cure or better treatment will be here soon, all we have is hopes and wishes.

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## TravisB

> We have to be realistic, ask the guys who've been on these forums for 5 to 10 years or more, they expected to be fixed by now, and learnt the hard way to not expect too much too soon.


 But you have to admit that probably never in history we had so many companies working at it at the same time.

Let's see, we have:

- Replicel
- Follica
- Histogen
- Aderans (but I'm not sure if they aren't dead)
- Cosmo with CB-03-01 (I personally put a lot of my faith into it, because it's a topical better than Fin and perhaps Dut with apparently no side effects)
- Bimatoprost (maybe)
- Tsuji Labs
- Dr. Lauster (maybe at some time)
- Dr. Nigam
- Dr. Mousseigne

So there's a chance that maybe not a total cure, but something better than Fin + Minox will come in 2 (Replicel plans to release their product in Asia in 2015) to 10 years. Tsuji Labs seem like they are the furthest away, but they have the potential to release real cure, as they have hair cloning. When the total cure will come, it will be most likely VERY expensive (at least at first) and unattainable for average man.

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## sausage

Governments should be ploughing money into finding a cure.........

The money that would be pumped into a country's economy if a cure was found would take it out of economic recession and extinguish the recession on our heads.

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## Californication

Lol if government spent a lot of money on it or made it a priority, it would be solved within a year tops.

Of course, that's implausible and you can't expect them to do it, but still, it's funny to think about. We've solved far more complex problems.

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## ge77inhigh

> Lol if government spent a lot of money on it or made it a priority, it would be solved within a year tops.
> 
> Of course, that's implausible and you can't expect them to do it, but still, it's funny to think about. We've solved far more complex problems.


 Lol i agree. I think there is a lot of money to be made in this area. I think everyone is working separately rather than together. For example, Nigam/Cole/Gho/French doc Mon should be working together. I think they can have a good hair transplant option, but we can only dream.

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## FearTheLoss

> Like I said before, I would love to believe that a better treatment is not too far off, but your 3-5 year claim is based completely on pure speculation. What evidence do you have that a better treatment will be here in 3-5 years? Sure there are far more people working on research now than before but there is zero evidence that we will have a viable treatment anytime soon. I don't base my reality on hopes and wishes, I base my reality on proof and evidence. To this point we have no real evidence that a cure or better treatment will be here soon, all we have is hopes and wishes.


 WHAT EVIDENCE DO WE HAVE????

hmmmm..histogen's results which are not a cure, but definitely better than minox and propecia

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## hellouser

> Lol i agree. I think there is a lot of money to be made in this area. I think everyone is working separately rather than together. For example, Nigam/Cole/Gho/French doc Mon should be working together. I think they can have a good hair transplant option, but we can only dream.


 I'd rather have Dr. Lauster sharing his work than any of those doctors you listed.

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## FearTheLoss

It's funny when people's reasoning for no new treatments coming soon is "I've been here for ten years and new treatments are always a few years away".... like technology and knowledge hasn't evolved. 


We will have a better treatment than propecia in 4 years or less..mark my words.

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## greatjob!

> WHAT EVIDENCE DO WE HAVE????
> 
> hmmmm..histogen's results which are not a cure, but definitely better than minox and propecia


 And when is that treatment coming out, if ever? You don't know. My point is that yes their are more treatments in the works than ever before, but not one single person knows when or if any of these are going to come out. And this topic is about a "cure". Anyone that says a treatment or cure will be out in x amount of years is basing that completely on their own opinion and assumptions, there for it is not evidence of anything coming soon but pure speculation. It's the same thing as me saying we will cure cancer in 5-10 years, there is more cancer research going on now than any other time in history, but I would be pulling that 5-10 year figure straight out of my ass just like everyone here is doing when speculating about a date for a hair loss cure.

----------


## Conpecia

Don't see the point of this thread because nobody knows. Might as well ask if you're going to be alive in 10 years. Nobody knows.

----------


## hellouser

I have a Magic 8 ball and its telling me you're all going to be balder than a cue ball in 3 years.

----------


## ccmethinning

If we're lucky: 5 years
Realistically: 10 years
Unlucky: 20 years

----------


## Banana Republic

If they find a cure, I predict a booming global economy with 0% unemployment worldwide, the end of world hunger and malnutrition, an end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and a radical decline in depression and suicide.

----------


## john2399

Follica cures baldness in 2015. We will see that all over the news soon boys.

----------


## TravisB

> Follica cures baldness in 2015. We will see that all over the news soon boys.


 And who are you? Some Follica insider?

----------


## john2399

> And who are you? Some Follica insider?


 Nah i wish. I just see the future.

----------


## thechamp

> Nah i wish. I just see the future.


 Nice you see the future you got next weeks lotto draw numbers thanks

----------


## Arashi

> Follica cures baldness in 2015. We will see that all over the news soon boys.


 That would mean they're in Phase II/III already. Please show us the clinical trials they're running at the moment: http://clinicaltrials.gov/

----------


## Arashi

Realistically, 3 groups of people have independently succeeded at bio engineering a human hair follicle:

* Lauster
* Team Tokyo (Tsuji labs) 
* Jahoda

Where Jahoda even succeeded at growing it on human skin (on SCID mice).

Bio-engineering one follicle is one thing, doing it on a mass scale is another. They'd need a huge source of cells and thus would probably need Induced Pluripotent Stemcells. Japan just OK-ed the first ever IPS cell trial 2 weeks ago: http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/434129/...clinical-trial
Japan is also looking at fasttracking stem cell research in general. Conditions that are every favourable for Tsuji labs. Hence I would say Tsjui labs is going to win this race and since they already succeeded at bio-engineering a human hair follicle, I would be surprised if it would take them more than 10 years.

----------


## Desmond84

Spot on Arashi  :Smile: 

And let's NOT forget Tsuji team was using Dermal Papillae cells as well as Epidermal cells! Mass producing DP cells and maintaining their trichogenicity was one of their future goals back in 2012...So, if Jahoda's 3D spheroidal technique works, 50% of their work is already done!

Tsuji may actually purchase Jahoda's 3D spheroids patent if all goes well

----------


## Scientalk56

in what phase *Follica* is?

----------


## Desmond84

I think they may be conducting another Phase I/IIa with their new protocol...but it hasn't started yet

----------


## Scientalk56

someone said here phase 3 and 2015 release... dissappointing sounds like rumors lol..

----------


## Desmond84

No way! Phase 3 would be some serious breakthrough! They just finished off their animal studies (Pre-clinical) with FGF-9 and are planning to test it out in humans hopefully by the end of 2014! This will be the first in-man trial based on the FGF-9 theory and will be a Phase 1/2a trial.

----------


## Arashi

> No way! Phase 3 would be some serious breakthrough! They just finished off their animal studies (Pre-clinical) with FGF-9 and are planning to test it out in humans hopefully by the end of 2014! This will be the first in-man trial based on the FGF-9 theory and will be a Phase 1/2a trial.


 Exactly. I'm pretty sure they're still in pre-clinical stage, otherwise their trial would show up on clinicaltrials.gov. Thus Follica is at least 7-8 years from having a product on the market.

----------


## Arashi

> Spot on Arashi 
> 
> And let's NOT forget Tsuji team was using Dermal Papillae cells as well as Epidermal cells! Mass producing DP cells and maintaining their trichogenicity was one of their future goals back in 2012...So, if Jahoda's 3D spheroidal technique works, 50&#37; of their work is already done!
> 
> Tsuji may actually purchase Jahoda's 3D spheroids patent if all goes well


 Yup exactly ! Jahoda's 3d sphere's were a huge breakthrough. Also note this huge news from just a few days ago, where a group of US researchers succeeded at creating an inner ear (including sensory hairs !!)  where again the 3d culture enviroment was the missing key to success:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0710141852.htm -> 
*"Previous attempts to "grow" inner-ear hair cells in standard cell culture systems have worked poorly in part because necessary cues to develop hair bundles* -- a hallmark of sensory hair cells and a structure critically important for detecting auditory or vestibular signals -- *are lacking in the flat cell-culture dish*. But, Dr. Hashino said, the team determined that the cells needed to be suspended as aggregates in a specialized culture medium, which provided an environment more like that found in the body during early development." "We were surprised to see that once stem cells are guided to become inner-ear precursors and * placed in 3-D culture, these cells behave as if they knew not only how to become different cell types in the inner ear, but also how to self-organize into a pattern remarkably similar to the native inner ear,"* Dr. Hashino said"

Dr Nigams is of course also currently experimenting with 3d culture and he's going to inject Tom with 3d culutured cells too. 

These are very interesting times, people ...

----------


## BoSox

> Exactly. I'm pretty sure they're still in pre-clinical stage, otherwise their trial would show up on clinicaltrials.gov. Thus Follica is at least 7-8 years from having a product on the market.


 7 to 8 years? Are you on crack?

2-3 years max.

----------


## Desmond84

> Yup exactly ! Jahoda's 3d sphere's were a huge breakthrough. Also note this huge news from a few days ago, where a group of US researchers succeeded at creating an inner ear (including sensory hairs !)  where again the 3d culture enviroment was the key to success:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0710141852.htm -> 
> *"Previous attempts to "grow" inner-ear hair cells in standard cell culture systems have worked poorly in part because necessary cues to develop hair bundles* -- a hallmark of sensory hair cells and a structure critically important for detecting auditory or vestibular signals -- are lacking in the flat cell-culture dish. But, Dr. Hashino said, the team determined that the cells needed to be suspended as aggregates in a specialized culture medium, which provided an environment more like that found in the body during early development."
> 
> and
> 
> "We were surprised to see that once stem cells are guided to become inner-ear precursors and * placed in 3-D culture, these cells behave as if they knew not only how to become different cell types in the inner ear, but also how to self-organize into a pattern remarkably similar to the native inner ear,"* Dr. Hashino said"


 Yeah I did man! Very exciting times  :Smile:  Every single day, we make another major breakthrough in stem cell research. Stem cells will change the world as we know it. Defying death and ageing will be one of the hot topics in the years to come. 

My personal view is we will see 'true' human hair neogenesis by 2020 and it will roll out to patients within the next 10 ± 2 years.

Until then we have to stay strong and do the best we can with the treatments that are available!

Don't forget if they can regrow our hair follicles, they can regrow our kidneys, liver, heart, etc....we will be around for a very long time to come and sporting our mohawks like a boss  :Big Grin: 

No point being down about it! We got dealt one bad card but we still have some bad ass cards left: Our Youth, Health and Vitality! Use these cards well and more luck will come soon enough.

----------


## Arashi

> 7 to 8 years? Are you on crack?
> 
> 2-3 years max.


 You agree that Follica hasn't even started Phase I ? Clinical trials run for years, a lot of times companies add extra phases and then they need time to design each phase, get each phase approved, recruit people (for every phase) and finally get the product to market. Unfortunately, yes, this does mean a 7-8 year timeframe.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I dunno if I'm missing something here but I thought Follica did actually grow hair on a human being using this FGF-9 method.  That's why it was such a big deal since virtually anyone can regrow hair on some lab mouse.  I'm not sure if it was part of a phased clinical trial or if it was done on the down-low, but I'm pretty sure that hair was regrown on a human being.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> I dunno if I'm missing something here but I thought Follica did actually grow hair on a human being using this FGF-9 method.  That's why it was such a big deal since virtually anyone can regrow hair on some lab mouse.  I'm not sure if it was part of a phased clinical trial or if it was done on the down-low, but I'm pretty sure that hair was regrown on a human being.


 Also, FGF9 doesn't need to go through pre clinical testing and approval because it's already an FDA approved chemical...

That's why, best case scenario we could see this hit the market in 2 years...doubtful, but possible.

----------


## cichlidfort

> Also, FGF9 doesn't need to go through pre clinical testing and approval because it's already an FDA approved chemical...
> 
> That's why, best case scenario we could see this hit the market in 2 years...doubtful, but possible.


 Bingo

----------


## KO1

> *You agree that Follica hasn't even started Phase I ?*


 Not true. Follica has finished a Phase 2 trial two years ago.

----------


## Arashi

> Not true. Follica has finished a Phase 2 trial two years ago.


 Where can we read about that ? There's nothing on clinicaltrials.gov. Furthermore in the recent publication they only seem to talk about mice (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0602144327.htm) . Hence it really seems they haven't tested it on humans. Furthermore it seems there are lot of "if's". Quite a few growth factors are associated with hair growth and FGF9 might actually be quite interesting but I highly doubt a single growth factor will grow hair on a bald scalp. Follica seems to be doing interesting work, but I really doubt they're going to bring us THE cure everybody is waiting for ...

----------


## Arashi

Even if you search the DB for FGF9, it finds nothing. I'm pretty sure every FDA approved trial appears in that DB.

----------


## john2399

> Where can we read about that ? There's nothing on clinicaltrials.gov. Furthermore in the recent publication they only seem to talk about mice (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0602144327.htm) . Hence it really seems they haven't tested it on humans. Furthermore it seems there are lot of "if's". Quite a few growth factors are associated with hair growth and FGF9 might actually be quite interesting but I highly doubt a single growth factor will grow hair on a bald scalp. Follica seems to be doing interesting work, but I really doubt they're going to bring us THE cure everybody is waiting for ...


 So dam negative. Who the hell knows what follica is up too. They have been around a long time so they might shock us.

----------


## KO1

> Where can we read about that ? There's nothing on clinicaltrials.gov. Furthermore in the recent publication they only seem to talk about mice (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0602144327.htm) . Hence it really seems they haven't tested it on humans. Furthermore it seems there are lot of "if's". Quite a few growth factors are associated with hair growth and FGF9 might actually be quite interesting but I highly doubt a single growth factor will grow hair on a bald scalp. Follica seems to be doing interesting work, but I really doubt they're going to bring us THE cure everybody is waiting for ...


 www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu

----------


## Arashi

> So dam negative. Who the hell knows what follica is up too. They have been around a long time so they might shock us.


 If you think I'm negative you've misread my postings in this thread. I'm very  optimistic ! The first IPS cell trial OK-ed by Japan, Japan fasttracking stem cell research, Jahoda bio-engineering and growing human hair follicle on human skin and development of inner ear (including hairs) as a result of 3d culturing (which really seems to have been  the missing link) is a reason to be VERY optimistic about the future ! And Dr Nigams is going to experiment with 3d culture soon, on forum member Tom, who knows, it just might work !!

----------


## Arashi

> www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu


 Nice find  :Smile:  But is this trial https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.e...?query=follica regarding FGF9 ???

----------


## Arashi

Nah, that trial was regarding lithium gluconate gel, not FGF9.

----------


## KO1

You were simply stating that Follica has not even completed P1, I pointed out that's not true. That's all. Now certainly, you may be referring only to FGF9 treatments, but they may not even try FGF9. Frankly, I don't think the FGF9 discovery is really that important yet.


FYI, Follica will likely not need a Phase I trial for their process. I suspect it will be P2 or further. They already completed a first in man trial years ago, and if they play with well known compounds, safety has already been proven.

----------


## Pentarou

I know very little about Follica, but it sounds like their technique for regrowing hair is/was a lot more mundane than anything involving cutting-edge developments with growth factors, dermal papilla, stem cells, etc...

----------


## Dasani

> this is an insult to a lot of guys on this forum. myself included. i'd appreciate it if you just wouldn't speak on stuff you clearly know little about.


 No I agree with him. I've coming up on year 2 anniversary of starting Finasteride. It changed my life. I was thinning, now I don't feel like I'm thinning anymore. And I've had 0 side effects.

----------


## KO1

> I know very little about Follica, but it sounds like their technique for regrowing hair is/was a lot more mundane than anything involving cutting-edge developments with growth factors, dermal papilla, stem cells, etc...


 Indeed. Their basic idea is - wounding via dermabrasion/something else + topical. It is either very mundane and simplistic or very creative and elegant, depending on how effective it is.  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

Does the wounding leave scars?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Does the wounding leave scars?


 no it's not that intensive...it's like sandpapering your skin almost, except with a device that is more precise.

----------


## KO1

If anybody is interested in learning about Follica and has a lot of free time:
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...011031990.html

----------


## Vox

> no it's not that intensive...it's like sandpapering your skin almost, except with a device that is more precise.


 It looks like it would leave visible injury on bald scalps. Where this assumption about a sandpapering-like treatment comes from?

----------


## Arashi

Dr Nigams just stated on HS that 2 forum members arrived who will be getting 3d DP culture !! That should be very interesting. If he can repeat Jahoda's experiment on SCID mice, but this time on human beings, man that's going to be extremely interesting !!

----------


## john2399

> Dr Nigams just stated on HS that 2 forum members arrived who will be getting 3d DP culture !! That should be very interesting. If he can repeat Jahoda's experiment on SCID mice, but this time on human beings, man that's going to be extremely interesting !!


 I want to see some amazing photos before getting interested in it.

----------


## Arashi

> I want to see some amazing photos before getting interested in it.


 Why ? You didn't read Jahoda's last paper ? Or do you doubt Nigams can replicate Jahoda's work ?

----------


## Arashi

From Jahoda's paper:

*Hair Follicle (HF) neogenesis refers to the generation of an entirely new HF in recipient skin* using HF dermal papilla (DP) cells. This has been extensively demonstrated in rodent skin , either using intact DP or using cultured DP cells. In contrast , HF neogenesis in human skin has not previously been achieved using human cells. We performed global transcriptional profiling of both intact and cultured Dp cells using Affymetrix U133 Plus 2.0 array , which revealed several pathways expressed in intact DP , which are capable of neogenesis , but absent in cultured cells, that lack the micro environmental and anatomical context of intact DP is to grow the cells in hanging drops, which results in the formation of DP spheroids. We then profiled DP spheroids for changes in gene expression and determined that the average correlation coefficient between the transcriptomes of intact DP and the cultured cells is 0.42 , whereas that between the intact DP 3D culture. To evaluate whether recapitulation of the DP signature equated to a restored inductive potential, we established a contextual human – to – human HF neogenesis assay that could be used to assess the inductive capacity of human DP cells in human skin. *When we micro implanted DP spheroids into recombined foreskins placed onto the back of SCID mice, we observed marked HF neogensis by 6 weeks, showing for the first time that intact human DP can induce de novo human HFs. We conclude that the partial restoration of the transcriptional profile in human Dp cells, achieved simply by growing the cells in a 3d spherical microenvironment, is sufficient in some instances to restore the inductive capacity of Dp cell cultures and elicit human HF neogenesis.*

And now Dr Nigams is about to try this on humans !! Really, if this doesn't get you interested, then what does ?  :Smile:

----------


## john2399

> From Jahoda's paper:
> 
> *Hair Follicle (HF) neogenesis refers to the generation of an entirely new HF in recipient skin* using HF dermal papilla (DP) cells. This has been extensively demonstrated in rodent skin , either using intact DP or using cultured DP cells. In contrast , HF neogenesis in human skin has not previously been achieved using human cells. We performed global transcriptional profiling of both intact and cultured Dp cells using Affymetrix U133 Plus 2.0 array , which revealed several pathways expressed in intact DP , which are capable of neogenesis , but absent in cultured cells, that lack the micro environmental and anatomical context of intact DP is to grow the cells in hanging drops, which results in the formation of DP spheroids. We then profiled DP spheroids for changes in gene expression and determined that the average correlation coefficient between the transcriptomes of intact DP and the cultured cells is 0.42 , whereas that between the intact DP 3D culture. To evaluate whether recapitulation of the DP signature equated to a restored inductive potential, we established a contextual human  to  human HF neogenesis assay that could be used to assess the inductive capacity of human DP cells in human skin. *When we micro implanted DP spheroids into recombined foreskins placed onto the back of SCID mice, we observed marked HF neogensis by 6 weeks, showing for the first time that intact human DP can induce de novo human HFs. We conclude that the partial restoration of the transcriptional profile in human Dp cells, achieved simply by growing the cells in a 3d spherical microenvironment, is sufficient in some instances to restore the inductive capacity of Dp cell cultures and elicit human HF neogenesis.*
> 
> And now Dr Nigams is about to try this on humans !! Really, if this doesn't get you interested, then what does ?


 It seems exciting, i just want to see photos to back it up that is all.

----------


## Conpecia

Photographs of results get me interested. That's about it at this point.

----------


## Arashi

> It seems exciting, i just want to see photos to back it up that is all.


 There's no photo's. This has never been tried on humans. Jahoda managed to create Human Hair follicles on Human skin, transplanted onto a SCID mouse. Now Dr Nigams is about to try it on humans. To me, that's interesting  :Big Grin:

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> Dr Nigams just stated on HS that 2 forum members arrived who will be getting 3d DP culture !! That should be very interesting. If he can repeat Jahoda's experiment on SCID mice, but this time on human beings, man that's going to be extremely interesting !!


 God bless Dr. Nigam!!  He seems like one of the few people who is looking to cure hair loss!!

----------


## Dazza

> Dr Nigams just stated on HS that 2 forum members arrived who will be getting 3d DP culture !! That should be very interesting. If he can repeat Jahoda's experiment on SCID mice, but this time on human beings, man that's going to be extremely interesting !!


 Woah.. 
This is interesting indeed. Have the two forum members names been released? Dr Nigams says one of the members is a biotech researcher? Wasn't Boldy studying this? 

Dr Nigams can you name the forum members? 
Best of luck to all who are participating.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

Arashi can you post a link?

and also Dr Nigam please keep us updated too.

indeed thats sounds perfect if its played out without sides but hair i am going too

----------


## Henkeh91

This will be interesting indeed!

----------


## burtandernie

I would much rather have some PGD 2 type thing or CB 03 01 get to market so I can do something to keep my hair because if I could I would never care about all this other stuff to regrow which is going to expensive, time consuming, and who knows when it will actually happen.
What happened to PGD 2 treatments already being in trials so in a few years we will have a cure?

----------


## BoSox

Don't forget Follica identified the growth factor as well, Fgf9. They are able to grow new hair (neogensis). Forget about maintaining or any of that bs, this will cure baldness as we know it. Just don't let all these pessimistic people on this forum distract you. It's going to happen soon, not exactly sure when, but soon. Just relax until its on the market.

----------


## hellouser

> What happened to PGD 2 treatments already being in trials so in a few years we will have a cure?


 Nothing. Some asshat by the name of Cotsarelis throughout his typical bullsh*t response of 'within 2 years' as if it were an attempt to bring more media attention to himself.

Liars, the whole f*cking lot of them.

----------


## Vox

> Don't forget Follica identified the growth factor as well, Fgf9. They are able to grow new hair (neogensis). Forget about maintaining or any of that bs, this will cure baldness as we know it. Just don't let all these pessimistic people on this forum distract you. It's going to happen soon, not exactly sure when, but soon. Just relax until its on the market.


 Do you have inside info or it is just a guess from your part?

----------


## Pentarou

> Do you have inside info or it is just a guess from your part?


 Naive optimism most likely.

----------


## walrus

> What happened to PGD 2 treatments already being in trials so in a few years we will have a cure?


 Well that was only one year ago now. They have no obligation to keep us updated.

----------


## BoSox

No, I just choose to be positive. Regardless of the outcome, I will be less stressed out. I have enough stress in my life.

----------


## FearTheLoss

Even Spencer believes hair loss will be cured in the next 10 years or less.

----------


## bigentries

> No, I just choose to be positive. Regardless of the outcome, I will be less stressed out. I have enough stress in my life.


 One thing is to be positive, and other is being naively positive

I consider myself positive as I believe the last generation of baldies has already been born. 

But you choose to believe the cure is coming "soon" even when all the evidence is against that.

Follica and their FGf9 finding has not been completely been understood, and their neogenesis is only speculation, we don't know how much have they've been able to grow, and the quality of the hair.

If we want a cosmetic improvement, we need a cure that grows a lot of thick hair, not a little amount of vellus

----------


## burtandernie

I personally would consider cb 03 01 a potential cure. If it stops MPB from progressing then in my opinion that is a form of a cure.

----------


## yan

> I personally would consider cb 03 01 a potential cure. If it stops MPB from progressing then in my opinion that is a form of a cure.


 So true... At least for the <NW3 guys and if really side effect free. Lets not forget that topical steroids can cause steroid atrophy and shit... :/

----------


## cichlidfort

What do DHT sensitive hair cells "lack" that DHT immune hair cells have?

----------


## sausage

I don't have a great knowledge of the current news on potential new hair loss treatments....

Aren't Gho, Nigam, and Histogen all working on the same or very similar injectable 'cure'? So far with apparently some sort of positive result.....

you would like to think that one of them will refine their own method enough to come up with something sooner or later.......hopefully sooner.

----------


## Pentarou

> Even Spencer believes hair loss will be cured in the next 10 years or less.


 Seriously, does he? I've never listened to his show, I'll admit now.

----------


## FearTheLoss

It's not word of God, but I'd say it's a pretty good bet. 

Exact quote:

Spencer "I talked with David Hall of Replicel you guys have seen on the show before... they've been working on Replicel since 2003...I believe they're on to a true science, technology that's gonna change peoples lives. It might not happen in 1 year or 2 years, it might not happen in 3 or 4, but it's gonna happen and they're getting closer and closer."

later on:

Spencer: "When I think about all those kids today and these companies that are really working on cures and effective treatments. When you're losing your hair today, you're 21-22, I'm not gonna put my hand on the bible on swear to this. But I can almost guarantee. You guys will not be living your adult lives as hairloss sufferers. There is a good chance that by the time you're in your 30's, this will all be over... you will be able to solve this in your young lives"

later on in talk with Joe from Staten Island.

"Replicel is going to make it happen for all of us."

----------


## SOTF

And all of it is wishful thinking. Hope is good but there is nothing definitive about Joe from Staten Island saying X product is going to make it rain. I cringe when I read people afraid to take finasteride or dutasteride. If I knew what I now know as fact, that these medications are the only real hope we have, I would have been on them 5 years ago before I went to a diffuse NW 3. I'd still have my hair, the studies show that as near certainty. 

I have recently read a representative of Dr. Cole on these very boards say that his "experience", "seeing" patients tells him finasteride does not work as claimed. That is absolute rubbish and the longer history we have of these drugs show the efficacy is very, very good if you stop getting intertwined in people's fallacies and follow facts. 

If you really want to remove doubt, skip finasteride and get on DUT at the first sign of loss. There is a wide range in DHT reduction on fin, which will not stop loss for some men. DUT provides a more stable reduction in DHT. Get on DUT, and WAIT.

----------


## cichlidfort

> If you really want to remove doubt, skip finasteride and get on DUT at the first sign of loss. There is a wide range in DHT reduction on fin, which will not stop loss for some men. DUT provides a more stable reduction in DHT. Get on DUT, and WAIT.


 When I read posts like yours, I seriously wonder if you even know how DHT plays a role on the human body. For those that say they don't experience sides are a bunch of fools. They might night physically feel them but you can damn right bet that their physiology is 100% altered when DHT is blocked. DHT is the king of male androgens and is about 3-10 times more potent then testosterone. Without sufficient DHT levels, you are not a full man and that is freaking fact. DHT helps with muscle development and furthermore, blocks the enzyme aromatase that converts testosterone into estrogen. That is why you have some men with female breasts when they go on Fin or Dut. It's sad really. The brain relies on sex hormones to function at it's best- DHEA, testosterone, estrogen and DHT. Out of all of those steroid compounds, DHT is still king. Testosterone only has a neural effect for a couple of hours while DHT is 24. DHT also helps with cholesterol. I could go on and on about this. We all know that when significant amount of DHT is blocked, sex drive is lowered and there will be impotence. The men that probably say they didn't notice any difference are probably not the most observant people. Many that say that have been on Fin for 10 years without sides that go off all of a sudden notice a big improvement in quality of life. I wonder why...

Moral of the story, fin and dut are just temporary preventives. It's a sacrifice when you take these drugs and a PERSONAL choice. Some men would rather have great muscle tone/high sex drive with little hair while others go for the cosmetic look. Everyone reacts to hair loss differently. Some men as myself are much better looking than others so it really all depends. Point is, we need a better cure that doesn't **** with our manliness. The end.

----------


## SOTF

The majority of your post is a fallacy. Let's discuss more fallacy. Here is my anecdotal report. I have a high sex drive, my muscle mass has never been better, I have zero mental fog and more energy than I've had in my life. All of this while on DUT with almost no serum DHT. 

See those scientific studies that show hardly anyone with these side effects you claim? You are not a fan of science. Research the role of DHT in ADULT male bodies. I am doing just fine at the gym with my testosterone. You are a product of hair loss forum broscience.

----------


## cichlidfort

> The majority of your post is a fallacy. Let's discuss more fallacy. Here is my anecdotal report. I have a high sex drive, my muscle mass has never been better, I have zero mental fog and more energy than I've had in my life. All of this while on DUT with almost no serum DHT. 
> 
> See those scientific studies that show hardly anyone with these side effects you claim? You are not a fan of science. Research the role of DHT in ADULT male bodies. I am doing just fine at the gym with my testosterone. You are a product of hair loss forum broscience.


 Tell your personal experience to the men that have irreversible side effects from taking Propecia/Fin. I however am not looking for a debate since I don't want to go astray from the topic. Buttttt, I am a fan of science. I have a degree in biology and I am currently in nursing school so go figure. But you can at least agree that a better alternative is in need and I am sure once there is one, you'll go that route?

----------


## KO1

> When I read posts like yours,* I seriously wonder if you even know how DHT plays a role on the human body*.


 Ahh...the patronizing, sanctimonious tone...pretty amusing.




> *We all know that when significant amount of DHT is blocked, sex drive is lowered and there will be impotence.*


 
You posted a lot of "blah blah", but let's focus on this. *Answer a simple question. If DHT is responsible for all these things, then why do most of us have no issue with sex drive or impotence?*
Side effects can certainly happen, but according to you they should happen to everyone, but that is far from the case.

----------


## SOTF

> Tell your personal experience to the men that have irreversible side effects from taking Propecia/Fin. I however am not looking for a debate since I don't want to go astray from the topic. Buttttt, I am a fan of science. I have a degree in biology and I am currently in nursing school so go figure. But you can at least agree that a better alternative is in need and I am sure once there is one, you'll go that route?


 If you were a man of science you would appreciate the literature and studies on AR-II blockers. Finasteride is considered a safe drug. I do not concern myself with sites dedicated to PFS. The only time my penis went limp was when I was OFF fin, spending hours a day reading the posts of men with limp wood. 

As to your query, I do not know. I will decide when I come to that bridge. I know for a fact fin/dut saved my remaining hair and will do so indefinitely. The safety profile is great and with fin, has a long track record of such. Inhibition of type I AR is of slight concern with the use of DUT long-term. Again, anecdotally I feel fantastic on both drugs and this is further enforced by not seeing my hair loss march forward. My only regret was not taking them sooner because of unfounded fear.

----------


## KO1

> I have recently read a representative of Dr. Cole on these very boards say that his "experience", "seeing" patients tells him finasteride does not work as claimed. That is absolute rubbish and the longer history we have of these drugs show the efficacy is very, very good if you stop getting intertwined in people's fallacies and follow facts.


 I agree with you. To suggest finasteride is ineffective is foolish and misleading. For what it's supposed to do - stop and slow down hairloss, it's great.

When I first started reading about hair loss, I used to read the same stupid tripe. "Fin is not very effective, expensive, and isn't covered by insurance" is what I learned. So I didn't take it being the poor college student I was.

F****g idiots.

----------


## cichlidfort

You two are a bunch of ignorant clowns. I won't even bother picking your arguments apart. Let the MAIN topic continue.

----------


## SOTF

Yes, we are the clowns. Of course you won't bother picking apart our arguments.

----------


## cichlidfort

> Yes, we are the clowns. Of course you won't bother picking apart our arguments.


 Everyone is different on the drug and who is to say you won't get some sort of major side effect down the road when you're in your 50s? I just read a story that a guy was on propecia for 8 years and then boom, mental fog, depression, anxiety and even after stopping for a year, symptoms didn't go away. What's even worse, the doctor couldn't even properly diagnose the guy.  There isn't enough research on the drug long term to know all the possible side effects and how they might pop up later when aging really takes it's toll on our bodies. You are taking a risk by messing with your hormones. HOPEFULLY, hair loss sufferers won't have to be on this drug for more than 5 years.

----------


## SOTF

> Everyone is different on the drug and who is to say you won't get some sort of major side effect down the road when you're in your 50s? I just read a story that a guy was on propecia for 8 years and then boom, mental fog, depression, anxiety and even after stopping for a year, symptoms didn't go away. What's even worse, the doctor couldn't even properly diagnose the guy.  There isn't enough research on the drug long term to know all the possible side effects and how they might pop up later when aging really takes it's toll on our bodies. You are taking a risk by messing with your hormones. HOPEFULLY, hair loss sufferers won't have to be on this drug for more than 5 years.


 There are human beings void of type II AR from birth that live fruitful, productive lives with fantastic hair. That is a bit longer than five years. Again, there is plenty of research on the drug. Your head is in the sand.

----------


## KO1

> You two are a bunch of ignorant clowns. I won't even bother picking your arguments apart. Let the MAIN topic continue.


 Why don't you answer my question? Since you know so much about DHT and how the human body works.

Why do the vast majority of men not suffer sides if DHT is so crucial to sex drive?

----------


## reckless

Every man should be made aware of fin. Then they can decide whether or not they want to take it after researching the potential side effects.

I wish I knew about it when I was 22.

----------


## KO1

cichlidfort, you there?

I want to get your answer for this:
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=150

----------


## cichlidfort

> cichlidfort, you there?
> 
> I want to get your answer for this:
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=150


 Sorry I was busy having a life. Why are there lawsuits against the drug? Why have there been suicides because of the drug? Why has there been plenty of reported cases of depression and sexual dysfunction because of the drug? Your glass holds no water. It's a risk. Works for many guys but for some it doesn't. Now grow up and let it go.

----------


## KO1

> Sorry I was busy having a life. Why are there lawsuits against the drug? Why have there been suicides because of the drug? Why has there been plenty of reported cases of depression and sexual dysfunction because of the drug? Your glass holds no water. It's a risk. Works for many guys but for some it doesn't. Now grow up and let it go.


 You still have not answered my question, and stop changing the subject. Since you know so much about "DHT and how the body works", why do most people not suffer these sides from high levels of DHT suppression?

Enlighten me.

----------


## hellouser

> You still have not answered my question, and stop changing the subject. Since you know so much about "DHT and how the body works", why do most people not suffer these sides from high levels of DHT suppression?
> 
> Enlighten me.


 Whats the point of asking? You shouldnt be defending Finasteride at all, the stuff is 20 years old and is known to give serious sexual side effects. More importantly, its TWENTY years old, you should be making more of a push for stem cell treatment or some kind of hair multiplication process instead of backing finasteride.

----------


## KO1

> Whats the point of asking? You shouldnt be defending Finasteride at all, the stuff is 20 years old and is known to give serious sexual side effects. More importantly, its TWENTY years old, you should be making more of a push for stem cell treatment or some kind of hair multiplication process instead of backing finasteride.


 The reason I am asking is because he decided to be a sanctimonious t***t and lecture us on "knowing how the human body works", so let's see his response. I am defending finasteride because it is a great drug that every man who has MPB should consider and rarely gives serious sexual side effects. Even if it is TWENTY years old, it is still enough for many.

And how exactly am I going to make a "push" for hair multiplication? Kidnap Lauster?

----------


## hellouser

> The reason I am asking is because he decided to be a sanctimonious t***t and lecture us on "knowing how the human body works", so let's see his response. I am defending finasteride because it is a great drug that every man who has MPB should consider and rarely gives serious sexual side effects. Even if it is TWENTY years old, it is still enough for many.
> 
> And how exactly am I going to make a "push" for hair multiplication? Kidnap Lauster?


 Even if its enough for many, its not anywhere near enough for many more. Additionally, there are those that can't afford it, don't know about it, are too late to get on it, etc.

I didn't specifically say make a push for hair multiplication, it should be obvious that I meant to make a push for a superior alternative, not this stone age shit.

----------


## KO1

Finasteride is not stone age. Anyways, there's nothing you or I can do about new treatments unless you have the ability and means to actually finance this work and invest in firms that can bring treatments to market. I don't have millions, many do though. In fact that is how Follica was started, they used Cots' discovery and shopped it around to investors.

As far I can see, that is the only way. One could also do what Boldy is doing and visiting Nigam with the idea of improving his protocol.

----------


## hellouser

> Finasteride is not stone age.


 Conversation ends right here if you actually believe this.

----------


## KO1

The reason I keep touting finasteride is because watching these HM treatments fail or disappear seems routine at this point. One should never hold off on using current treatments based on hope.

*Also, in many cases, like Histogen, they will work better the more hair you have. Which again leads back to fin.*

----------


## KO1

> Conversation ends right here if you actually believe this.


 Finasteride is not stone age. I repeat, it is safe and effective and every man should consider it.

----------


## garethbale

> Finasteride is not stone age. I repeat, it is safe and effective and every man should consider it.


 It's definitely not as effective as some people believe.  It usually slows down crown loss but if it stops your loss you are very lucky

----------


## KO1

> It's definitely not as effective as some people believe.  It usually slows down crown loss but if it stops your loss you are very lucky


 Statistically most people are above baseline after five years, and in the only 10 year study....well you know what I will say.  :Smile:

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I agree with you, hellouser.  Today's treatment are rudimentary, largely ineffective, riddled with downsides, and not nearly enough to treat hair loss.  I believe that when superior alternatives come to fruition, many people will look back and realize how "stone age" these current treatments actually are.

----------


## KO1

^ Not even close to true. Keep dreaming buddy, and when are these exciting treatments coming anyways? Do you know?

Also, even these new second generation treatments like Replicel, Histogen, and Aderans will work better the more hair you have, which will require finasteride.

----------


## Hairismylife

KO1 is shareholder of FIN, if not a salesman :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## KO1

> KO1 is shareholder of FIN, if not a salesman


 Fin has been a poor performer for Merck, so being a shareholder of Fin would not be very profitable....

----------


## cichlidfort

> You still have not answered my question, and stop changing the subject. Since you know so much about "DHT and how the body works", why do most people not suffer these sides from high levels of DHT suppression?
> 
> Enlighten me.


 There are so many grey areas in your argument it's hilarious. What are you basing your facts off of? Biased studies? Men on these forums? Yourself? Many men have had sides from the drug and I am sure there are a plethora of unreported cases. There are LAWSUITS against the drug because of the damage it's caused men! Stop being an ignorant fool and understand that this drug is not SAFE for everyone! Christ.... Do you honestly think every man is going to report negative side effects? I am not saying Fin doesn't do it's job but it is stone age in comparison to what's going to be coming out in the future.

----------


## KO1

> There are so many grey areas in your argument it's hilarious. What are you basing your facts off of? Biased studies? Men on these forums? Yourself? Many men have had sides from the drug and I am sure there are a plethora of unreported cases. There are LAWSUITS against the drug because of the damage it's caused men! Stop being an ignorant fool and understand that this drug is not SAFE for everyone! Christ.... Do you honestly think every man is going to report negative side effects? I am not saying Fin doesn't do it's job but it is stone age in comparison to what's going to be coming out in the future.


 Still didn't answer my question. If DHT is so crucial for all these things.

Why don't the vast majority of people suffer these sides? So are you suggesting that in a *double blinded* study wiht 5&#37; incidence of sides, 95% of people are choosing not to report them? If so, on what basis?

Problem is your argument totally starts to fall apart when you actually you know, think about it. So you keep changing the topic.

Also what is going to come out in the future? Lauster? Oh wait. Even future treatments will work best in conjuction with finasteride.

----------


## hellouser

> Also what is going to come out in the future? Lauster? Oh wait. Even future treatments will work best in conjuction with finasteride.


 LMAO! Completely false. Lauster's method does not rely on anything.

----------


## KO1

Lauster has no method. He has been talking about clinical trials for years!

----------


## hellouser

> Lauster has no method. He has been talking about clinical trials for years!


 Another FALSE statement:

Lauster hasn't said shit since 2010, how would you know what he's been saying since?

Watch the interviews with Lauster and he explains his method.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I don't buy those studies at all that say that finasteride has only 5% side effects.  There are just too many examples to the contrary, myself included.  I don't believe that our bodies simply produce DHT for no reason at all, and that major suppression of it will cause no side effects whatsoever.  

Also, treatments like those of Replicel, Lauster, and Tsuji will not need to be aided with finasteride at all.  These will be cellular treatments where the stem cells that are being multiplied will be taken from DHT-resistant cells anyway.

----------


## greatjob!

> There are so many grey areas in your argument it's hilarious. What are you basing your facts off of? Biased studies? Men on these forums? Yourself? Many men have had sides from the drug and I am sure there are a plethora of unreported cases. There are LAWSUITS against the drug because of the damage it's caused men! Stop being an ignorant fool and understand that this drug is not SAFE for everyone! Christ.... Do you honestly think every man is going to report negative side effects? I am not saying Fin doesn't do it's job but it is stone age in comparison to what's going to be coming out in the future.


 So peer reviewed studies are biased, but lawsuits are objective definitive proof? I can bring a lawsuit about anything for any reason.

This whole argument is stupid and useless. Finasteride does have side effects just like any other drug. The side effects are published and well documented. It is the only proven treatment that is currently available to slow, stop or possibly reverse hair loss. Every balding man should at least consider taking it. If you don't want to take it good for you, if you do want to take it good for you. Period end of story. Now please STFU!

----------


## hellouser

> Also, treatments like those of Replicel, Lauster, and Tsuji will not need to be aided with finasteride at all.  These will be cellular treatments where the stem cells that are being multiplied will be taken from DHT-resistant cells anyway.


 Only problem is that Replicel's treatment isn't really using all the stem cells in a hair follicle, they're only using Dermal Sheath Cup cells, so its not really known yet if that alone will create new follicles from scratch. Its more likely that these cells may bind to existing miniaturized or dormant follicles and rejuvenate them.

Tsuji's and Lauster's methods are the holy grail with Tsuji's method being superior only by the fact that it would enable simple cell injections and watching yourself grow a lion's mane of hair. Lauster's (for now anyway) would require implants of the artificial follicles which would be quite lengthy to do for full thickness (15,000+ follicles). However, I suppose since he's basically cloned them, perhaps he's got control over how many hairs grow out of a single follicle? Maybe you could have a choice of implanting only 3 and 4 hair grafts and lessen the amount of work, and then limit yourself to 1-3 hair grafts for the hairline for a natural look?

Whatever the case is, their treatments are long overdue and Finasteride's death is also long overdue.

I'm fvcking tired of waiting.

----------


## KO1

Which phase of clinical trials is Lauster in? Tsuji is a long way away from clinical trials of any kind, which he himself has stated.

Replicel will work better on extant hair that is miniaturized, so you will want to keep the most you can.

----------


## KO1

> So peer reviewed studies are biased, but lawsuits are objective definitive proof? I can bring a lawsuit about anything for any reason.
> 
> This whole argument is stupid and useless. Finasteride does have side effects just like any other drug. The side effects are published and well documented. It is the only proven treatment that is currently available to slow, stop or possibly reverse hair loss. Every balding man should at least consider taking it. If you don't want to take it good for you, if you do want to take it good for you. Period end of story. Now please STFU!


 Pretty much my opinion as well.

----------


## hellouser

> Which phase of clinical trials is Lauster in? Tsuji is a long way away from clinical trials of any kind, which he himself has stated.
> 
> Replicel will work better on extant hair that is miniaturized, so you will want to keep the most you can.


 I thought you had inside info of what Lauster has been saying since 2010? Do YOU know what phase of clinical trials Lauster is in?

----------


## Arashi

Regardless, please stop discussing Fin in the cutting edge/future treatments sections for Christ's sake. Nobody here is interested in that poison.

----------


## KO1

> I thought you had inside info of what Lauster has been saying since 2010? Do YOU know what phase of clinical trials Lauster is in?


 There is no evidence Lauster is in clinical trials of any sort for MPB. Feel free to show me otherwise.

----------


## cichlidfort

> Finasteride is not stone age. I repeat, it is safe and effective and every man should consider it.


 
This is why you are not taken seriously. You and loud mouth greatjob! can go use it as lube for each other. The end.

----------


## hellouser

> There is no evidence Lauster is in clinical trials of any sort for MPB. Feel free to show me otherwise.


 Nobody said he was. Its been clear that he said that 'plans were underway' in 2010, and thats about as much as you could possibly know.

----------


## KO1

> This is why you are not taken seriously. You and loud mouth greatjob! can go use it as lube for each other. The end.


 And what do you contribute besides your dumb posts crying about fin? You don't know anything about the drug, you dont believe in clinical trial data, you cry and whine, and you think you are taken seriously? 




> Nobody said he was. Its been clear that he said that 'plans were underway' in 2010, and thats about as much as you could possibly know.


 A guy says he's cured hair loss 3 years ago, claims he's going to conduct clinical trials, but we hear nothing about him since. And that's your evidence for "new treatments are coming so we shouldn't take fin". LMAO.

Hey guys....I cured hair loss too. I'm in talks with pharma firms for trials. Stay tuned!

----------


## hellouser

> And what do you contribute besides your dumb posts crying about fin? You don't know anything about the drug, you dont believe in clinical trial data, you cry and whine, and you think you are taken seriously? 
> 
> 
> 
> A guy says he's cured hair loss 3 years ago, claims he's going to conduct clinical trials, but we hear nothing about him since. And that's your evidence for "new treatments are coming so we shouldn't take fin". LMAO.
> 
> Hey guys....I cured hair loss too. I'm in talks with pharma firms for trials. Stay tuned!


 You failed in debates in grade school, didn't you? Not only that, but either you twist peoples words to support your own agenda or your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking. Whatever the case may be, every reply you've made had at a false statement, and this one is no different.

Like the others have said, this is about cutting edge. Take your finasteride agenda, cram it up your ass and get the fvck out of here.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

if you get fin from your ass do you get sides? lol :Big Grin:

----------


## KO1

> You failed in debates in grade school, didn't you? Not only that, but either you twist peoples words to support your own agenda or your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking. Whatever the case may be, every reply you've made had at a false statement, and this one is no different.
> 
> Like the others have said, this is about cutting edge. Take your finasteride agenda, cram it up your ass and get the fvck out of here.


 No, I was not on the debate team, I played soccer, and my reading comprehension is great. I will continue promoting and defending finasteride, and it is not my problem you're a dumbass who licks Roland Lauster.

cichlidfort made a dumb point about DHT, and once questioned turns into a crying heap. You made a stupid point about Lauster's brilliant cutting edge treatment, which does not exist, and you're reduced to whining.

So feel free to cram it up Roland Lauster and tell me if you grow any hair. That would be cutting edge!

----------


## sausage

oh god, yet another massive fin argument.

----------


## SOTF

There is no argument. The argument painting finasteride and dutasteride as dangerous drugs has been debunked years ago. The only people crying about it are the very, very small percentage of men that actually experienced REAL side effects, and the rest being men who read anecdotal reports of people's dicks shrinking and ED, and ran with it themselves. 

I repeat, the only proven way to maintain your hair while we wait for this "cutting edge tech" is to get on finasteride, stop reading the pollution of the extreme minority and get on with your life.

----------


## greatjob!

> This is why you are not taken seriously. You and loud mouth greatjob! can go use it as lube for each other. The end.


 I don't want to continue this useless conversation, but how am I a loud mouth or explain how anything in my comment is false? I am not pro-fin and I am not anti-fin. It has its place. You and anyone who is completely against it or completely for it is a moron, it is just a drug take it or not, who cares. Now I repeat STFU!

Why is this thread even continuing anyways, no one knows when a cure will be here, it will come when it comes. Everything else is just guessing, regardless of whether or not it is educated guessing, it is still just guessing.

----------


## cichlidfort

> So feel free to cram it up Roland Lauster and tell me if you grow any hair. That would be cutting edge!


 
Actually if you knew anything about DHT, you would know DHT is what stimulates the production and growth of body hair, including hair on your ass. Taking Fin is an antagonist of body hair growth. So once again, you fail.

----------


## KO1

Cichlid...you still haven't told me why the vast majority of people don't experience sides if DHT is so crucial. By your logic, 100&#37; of fin users will get reduced libido and ED....which is not true!

Let me know when you can babble a response.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> Cichlid...you still haven't told me why the vast majority of people don't experience sides if DHT is so crucial. By your logic, 100% of fin users will get reduced libido and ED....which is not true!
> 
> Let me know when you can babble a response.


 i'm actually wondering this as well. if dht plays such a huge roll in sexual function why don't most men have trouble getting it up on this drug?

----------


## Aeroes

> i'm actually wondering this as well. if dht plays such a huge roll in sexual function why don't most men have trouble getting it up on this drug?


 Everyone's sensitivity to hormones is different. My junk literally died on propecia was completely numb and I have friends who don't experience anything.

----------


## KO1

What does it mean, "sensitivity to hormones is different"? What causes "sensitivity to hormones" on a molecular level? You realize with fin, and especially dut, DHT levels are highly suppressed to barely there on dut. Even if someone was "not very sensitive", he would still be affected. Men have taken 5mg dutasteride (10x the recommended dose) for six months and felt no sides, some have even taken 40mg for a week with no adverse effects. With fin, I think people have taken daily dosages of 80mg, and single dosages of *400mg* (!) with no adverse effects. I wonder what their DHT levels were...

Yet, few people feel side effects.

----------


## Arashi

Can someone rename this thread into 'fin debate' and move it to the 20 year old meds section ?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Can someone rename this thread into 'fin debate' and move it to the 20 year old meds section ?


 lmao actually tho

----------


## didi

lets talk about wigs 

http://www.vegaoo.co.uk/brown-jason-...g-for-men.html


NW-2

----------


## greatjob!

> Can someone rename this thread into 'fin debate' and move it to the 20 year old meds section ?


 hahahaha!

----------


## Aeroes

> What does it mean, "sensitivity to hormones is different"? What causes "sensitivity to hormones" on a molecular level? You realize with fin, and especially dut, DHT levels are highly suppressed to barely there on dut. Even if someone was "not very sensitive", he would still be affected. Men have taken 5mg dutasteride (10x the recommended dose) for six months and felt no sides, some have even taken 40mg for a week with no adverse effects. With fin, I think people have taken daily dosages of 80mg, and single dosages of *400mg* (!) with no adverse effects. I wonder what their DHT levels were...
> 
> Yet, few people feel side effects.


 You have to be kidding yourself if you think few people get sides from taking
5AR2 inhibitors. Sure there are people that it doesn't affect, i'm sure you realize DHT does more than just make your hair fall out. Anyway, i don't want to ruin this thread with a debate. Be a bit more respectful of people who did have a bad experience even if there is only a small amount of us lol.

----------


## Tomb10

Guys, how do you think about this..
When you are a nw2 at the moment, and taking finas and minox.
Then replicel of histogen will be a cure for these people, maybe in combination with dr wesley scarless fue for the hairline.

----------


## WINGER

I cant believe a load of numptys on a balding forum still constantly moan and fire f*cks into these 'Scientists' 'Doctors' who are trying their upmost to help us. At the end of the day if it wasn't for them we'd have no hope. Have a little respect for what they are trying to do to make your life better. They know more than you end of. They know what they are doing end of.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

Not close.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> What does it mean, "sensitivity to hormones is different"? What causes "sensitivity to hormones" on a molecular level? You realize with fin, and especially dut, DHT levels are highly suppressed to barely there on dut. Even if someone was "not very sensitive", he would still be affected. Men have taken 5mg dutasteride (10x the recommended dose) for six months and felt no sides, some have even taken 40mg for a week with no adverse effects. With fin, I think people have taken daily dosages of 80mg, and single dosages of *400mg* (!) with no adverse effects. I wonder what their DHT levels were...
> 
> Yet, few people feel side effects.


 Didnt you quit fin due to sides?

----------


## Javert

> Can someone rename this thread into 'fin debate' and move it to the 20 year old meds section ?


 Seriously.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

fin is relevant to this, because we have no cure and it's the best we have

----------


## cichlidfort

> Cichlid...you still haven't told me why the vast majority of people don't experience sides if DHT is so crucial. By your logic, 100% of fin users will get reduced libido and ED....which is not true!
> 
> Let me know when you can babble a response.


 It's time you do some research for yourself big guy. There are plenty of guys that have what they feel as "normal" DHT levels but still have problems with impotence, low libido, and erection dysfunction. Nitric oxide is the neurotransmitter that mediates increased blood flow in response to parasympathetic nerve stimulation which then diffuses into the smooth muscle cells of blood vessels. Fin not only disrupts DHT levels for some men but without sufficient N,O other neurotransmitters can be inhibited and pathways. I don't have the time nor the inclination to make you look like the retard you are about the long term affects of fin. The damage could be irreversible if your hypothalamus and pituitary gland have been negatively affected because it stopped producing these neurotransmitters since DHT was inhibited by Fin. Now I just have you the jist of it, go do some big joy research and educate yourself you ignorant little shit.

----------


## hellouser

> It's time you do some research for yourself big guy. There are plenty of guys that have what they feel as "normal" DHT levels but still have problems with impotence, low libido, and erection dysfunction. Nitric oxide is the neurotransmitter that mediates increased blood flow in response to parasympathetic nerve stimulation which then diffuses into the smooth muscle cells of blood vessels. Fin not only disrupts DHT levels for some men but without sufficient N,O other neurotransmitters can be inhibited and pathways. I don't have the time nor the inclination to make you look like the retard you are about the long term affects of fin. The damage could be irreversible if your hypothalamus and pituitary gland have been negatively affected because it stopped producing these neurotransmitters since DHT was inhibited by Fin. Now I just have you the jist of it, go do some big joy research and educate yourself you ignorant little shit.

----------


## FearTheLoss

I give it another 10 years or less until we are cured..or have something as good as a cure i.e. 100% donor regeneration.

Look how far we have come in the last 15 years transplant wise, we have scarless surgery coming into play, lots of doctors working on regeneration and lots of companies working towards new products...scientific knowledge increases drastically every year...we will get there, it may not be tomorrow or a year from now or 5 years from now...but soon enough we are going to have a cure... I give it 10 or less.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> It's time you do some research for yourself big guy. There are plenty of guys that have what they feel as "normal" DHT levels but still have problems with impotence, low libido, and erection dysfunction. Nitric oxide is the neurotransmitter that mediates increased blood flow in response to parasympathetic nerve stimulation which then diffuses into the smooth muscle cells of blood vessels. Fin not only disrupts DHT levels for some men but without sufficient N,O other neurotransmitters can be inhibited and pathways. I don't have the time nor the inclination to make you look like the retard you are about the long term affects of fin. The damage could be irreversible if your hypothalamus and pituitary gland have been negatively affected because it stopped producing these neurotransmitters since DHT was inhibited by Fin. Now I just have you the jist of it, go do some big joy research and educate yourself you ignorant little shit.


 lol someones dick doesn't work

----------


## Johnnynitro

> I give it another 10 years or less until we are cured..or have something as good as a cure i.e. 100% donor regeneration.
> 
> Look how far we have come in the last 15 years transplant wise, we have scarless surgery coming into play, lots of doctors working on regeneration and lots of companies working towards new products...scientific knowledge increases drastically every year...we will get there, it may not be tomorrow or a year from now or 5 years from now...but soon enough we are going to have a cure... I give it 10 or less.


  This is it !!

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, do you think expecting to have a new treatment by *Dec 2015* is wishful thinking? 

I wish we could ask God for one miracle!

----------


## Artista

> Hey guys, do you think expecting to have a new treatment by *Dec 2015* is wishful thinking? 
> 
> I wish we could ask God for one miracle!


 *Desmond*.. I feel somewhat _confident_ that 2015 will have something of better viability for us.  Ive learned throughout my life that *OPTIMISM* is never a bad thing.

----------


## Desmond84

Artista I really hope so! I don't know how ppl like my Dad dealt with this mess for over 30 years! The Aderans news really killed my spirit...

To a better future  :Smile:

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Hey guys, do you think expecting to have a new treatment by *Dec 2015* is wishful thinking? 
> 
> I wish we could ask God for one miracle!


 I don't think that is wishful thinking. Histogen and RepliCel could very well be out in nonwestern countries at that time...as that is what they are still stating they will do....

I think it is reasonable to say that by 2016 we will definitely have a new treatment out that is at least equal to or greater than propecia.

by the way what happened to the RepliCel interview that Spencer did a few months ago? I thought that was going to be uploaded?


Also, I think we are going to see huge advances in hair restoration surgery... (donor regeneration, scarless, etc)

The next few months are going to be huge..make or break stuff happening

----------


## Scientalk56

I think we should be careful with our expectations... both good and bad things can come out of no where.. yes in the nest few years i believe there will be a very effective treatment, but picking up an exact date is wrong.. because no one really knows..
as someone told us here - about an email he got from histogen, we should expect to hear something about the next phase in fall...

----------


## sausage

I bet there are other earth like planets out there, well in fact there are bound to be at least thousands, or hundreds of thousands of earth like planets out there in the universe, maybe in out galaxy alone........

Someone out there probably has a cure...........just in another world.

Right now on another planet someone is probably getting their hair cured in some clinic on the other side of our galaxy........

----------


## moore

@FearTheLoss, which one?

http://www.thebaldtruth.com/hair-los...trial-results/

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6100

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6576

----------


## hellouser

> Right now on another planet women are probably getting their hair cured in some clinic on the other side of our galaxy........


 Fixed.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> @FearTheLoss, which one?
> 
> http://www.thebaldtruth.com/hair-los...trial-results/
> 
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6100
> 
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6576


 I think it was Desmond, or someone who had mentioned that Spencer did an interview with David Hall a few months ago, but he couldn't post it until replicel gave him permission or something

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

If there was a cure, or at least a better treatment, for Alopecia Areata, my MPB would not look so bad/noticeable. I have to deal with both, but the AA is beating out the MPB. At least I can treat MPB. If it wasn't for AA, I would not even be lurking here. Hopefully there are better treatments on their way, for both types of hair losses.

----------


## Tomb10

what is spencer's opinion on an future cure or better treatment?

----------


## Phatalis

Replicel

----------


## john2399

Transplant lol

----------


## john2399

We dnt use the word cure on this forum no more..it's forbidden.

----------


## Tomb10

Phatalis,

so spencer believes in replicel? 
but the the phase 1 results are not great.
So what do you think we can expect of it?
That replicel will be the new finasteride, to get maintenance?

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, the last episode of *The Bald Truth* was pretty much dedicated to Cutting Edge Treatments!!!

Spencer and Joe discussed treatments for over 45 minutes I think and the jist of it was that Spencer doesn't think that anything ground-breaking will be coming in the immediate future...My personal feeling was that he is seeing not much happening at least till 2018-2020!

Joe even mentioned at some point that in 1998, when they were fresh on the air and discussing upcoming treatments, they never thought they would have this same conversation in 2013 in terms of no ground breaking hair loss solutions! They are a bit shocked about it as well...

Looks like fins our best friend for some time to come

----------


## hellouser

Time to make some phone calls and send out emails and call out all the fvcking researchers and the FDA for both incompetence, lack of speed and the FDA for holding things back.

This is complete BULLSHIT.

Next year theyre supposed to give grey hairs colour... but hair loss is still a problem? WHERE THE FVCK ARE THE PRIORITIES??

----------


## Desmond84

> Time to make some phone calls and send out emails and call out all the fvcking researchers and the FDA for both incompetence, lack of speed and the FDA for holding things back.
> 
> This is complete BULLSHIT.
> 
> Next year theyre supposed to give grey hairs colour... but hair loss is still a problem? WHERE THE FVCK ARE THE PRIORITIES??


 Bro I'm with you 100%

They fed ppl in London lab grown steak last week...there's a head transplant clinical trial set to begin in 2015...and the list goes on!

I really hope I get this PhD grant so I can work on the Tsuji lab theory...I wouldn't know what else to do! Could it be this hard??? Maybe it is! God knows why...

----------


## garethbale

Bloody hell!

Hope something comes sooner than 2020. Maybe Replicel in Asia? 

I will need a HT in the meantime. No way is my hair holding out til 2020. 2017 maybe...

----------


## hellouser

Can't fvcking believe this... 2013 and no cure. Someone, somehow, needs to put a LOT more pressure on Dr. Lauster. I won't be satisfied unless theres a treatment available SOON. Not 2030, not 2020.... NOW. None of you should be satisifed with the fact that Finasteride is still on the market.

----------


## Axel

> Looks like fins our best friend for some time to come


 F*ck Finasteride! I rather get on roids and go the Jason Statham way..

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> Can't fvcking believe this... 2013 and no cure. Someone, somehow, needs to put a LOT more pressure on Dr. Lauster. I won't be satisfied unless theres a treatment available SOON. Not 2030, not 2020.... NOW. None of you should be satisifed with the fact that Finasteride is still on the market.


 Really.  Amen to that.  I can't imagine taking finasteride and dealing with these side effects for 7 more years.

----------


## J_B_Davis

> Can't fvcking believe this... 2013 and no cure. Someone, somehow, needs to put a LOT more pressure on Dr. Lauster. I won't be satisfied unless theres a treatment available SOON. Not 2030, not 2020.... NOW. None of you should be satisifed with the fact that Finasteride is still on the market.


 Makes a lot sense. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  So you would prefer that Propecia be off the market so that everyone could continue to suffer like you? What about the millions of men who have success with it? Should it be ripped away from them because you think it should't be on the market? Do you actually think that putting "pressure" on a scientist is going to do anything but make you look nuts?

Face the facts,  Propecia,  a few experimental things, hair transplants and wigs are all we have . You can spend every minute on this forum bitching about it, calling doctors lazy or whatever  but it's not going to change anything. If you don't take Propecia, you will probably end up bald, it's as simple as that. You are not going to change that fact by crying about it.

----------


## JJJJrS

> Hey guys, the last episode of *The Bald Truth* was pretty much dedicated to Cutting Edge Treatments!!!
> 
> Spencer and Joe discussed treatments for over 45 minutes I think and the jist of it was that Spencer doesn't think that anything ground-breaking will be coming in the immediate future...My personal feeling was that he is seeing not much happening at least till 2018-2020!
> 
> Joe even mentioned at some point that in 1998, when they were fresh on the air and discussing upcoming treatments, they never thought they would have this same conversation in 2013 in terms of no ground breaking hair loss solutions! They are a bit shocked about it as well...
> 
> Looks like fins our best friend for some time to come


 It's interesting how much things have changed in such a short time. Just 3-4 years ago we had ARI, Replicel, HSC, ACell, HST. There was a lot of optimism that at least one or two of these treatments would turn into viable, effective options to reverse hairloss. Fast forward to today and I have minimal hope for any of these treatments, which I would never have guessed would happen only a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot in the pipeline to get too excited about either, other than CB possibly or whatever Cotsarelis, Tsuji etc. can come up with. 

I think the best advice Spencer gives in that video is to move on with your life. Stop waiting for a cure. It's unlikely anything is going to pop up anytime soon. If something does, then great, but be prepared to live your life with hairloss. 

After losing a bit of hope with these treatments, I personally decided to buzz my hair. For years I thought I would look terrible with a really short haircut and that my hairloss would be even more accentuated, but it's really not bad at all and the lack of maintenance is great, particularly for someone who has used concealers for a while. I also kept myself in good shape, got a tan, and just mentally worked on accepting my hairloss and stopped caring what others may think about it. It's brought me a lot of relief and I'm no longer as emotionally invested in this. I'll still keep up with the news but it's no longer an obsession.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Being prepared to live a life with hair loss is so much easier said than done though.  I mean, if you're an NW 1.5 or 2, then no one is even gonna notice.  But if you're more than an NW4, it's gonna limit you in many facets of life and no one is eager to lead a limited life.

----------


## hellouser

> Makes a lot sense. So you would prefer that Propecia be off the market so that everyone could continue to suffer like you? What about the millions of men who have success with it? Should it be ripped away from them because you think it should't be on the market? Do you actually think that putting "pressure" on a scientist is going to do anything but make you look nuts?
> 
> Face the facts,  Propecia,  a few experimental things, hair transplants and wigs are all we have . You can spend every minute on this forum bitching about it, calling doctors lazy or whatever  but it's not going to change anything. If you don't take Propecia, you will probably end up bald, it's as simple as that. You are not going to change that fact by crying about it.


 Youre skewing my words.

I was implying that propecia should be banished with a better alternative.

----------


## J_B_Davis

> Youre skewing my words.
> 
> I was implying that propecia should be banished with a better alternative.


 But even if better treatments come along, why should someone who has stopped their hair loss on Propecia, not be able to continue the treatment if they choose to? Why should alternatives "banish" Propecia if it's working for people?

----------


## hellouser

> But even if better treatments come along, why should someone who has stopped their hair loss on Propecia, not be able to continue the treatment if they choose to? Why should alternatives "banish" Propecia if it's working for people?


 Because a superior alternative would then exist? Why should people meddle with a pill that has unknown long term side effects on your liver and short to permanent effects on your dick?

Its been 20 years since propecia was put on the market. Are you that complacent to think its perfectly fine that this SHIT is still sold without a superior alternative? You've got a very 'canadian' way of thinking... passive aggressive.. 'meh, what are you gonna do'.

That kind of lazy attitude will NEVER bring you a cure.

----------


## JJJJrS

> Being prepared to live a life with hair loss is so much easier said than done though.  I mean, if you're an NW 1.5 or 2, then no one is even gonna notice.  But if you're more than an NW4, it's gonna limit you in many facets of life and no one is eager to lead a limited life.


 I'm between a NW3V - NW4, still in my mid 20s, and began dealing with hairloss when I was 16/17 so I know first-hand that it's not easy, especially if you're young. Of course, life would be better with a full head of hair. But it's not the end of the world and a lot of people can make it into an even bigger problem than it actually is. It took me a while to get to the acceptance stage but eventually I did. 

For a lot of people, like myself, there really is no other option. I'm not going to take chances with possible side-effects from fin. I'm not interested in getting a scar from a HT, especially with a limited donor supply and no way of halting my hairloss. So I can either complain about it on the forums or move on and deal with it.

----------


## Scientalk56

> I'm between a NW3V - NW4, still in my mid 20s, and began dealing with hairloss when I was 16/17 so I know first-hand that it's not easy, especially if you're young. Of course, life would be better with a full head of hair. But it's not the end of the world and a lot of people can make it into an even bigger problem than it actually is. It took me a while to get to the acceptance stage but eventually I did. 
> 
> For a lot of people, like myself, there really is no other option. I'm not going to take chances with possible side-effects from fin. I'm not interested in getting a scar from a HT, especially with a limited donor supply and no way of halting my hairloss. So I can either complain about it on the forums or move on and deal with it.


 Agree with every word...

----------


## J_B_Davis

> Because a superior alternative would then exist? Why should people meddle with a pill that has unknown long term side effects on your liver and short to permanent effects on your dick?
> 
> Its been 20 years since propecia was put on the market. Are you that complacent to think its perfectly fine that this SHIT is still sold without a superior alternative? You've got a very 'canadian' way of thinking... passive aggressive.. 'meh, what are you gonna do'.
> 
> That kind of lazy attitude will NEVER bring you a cure.


 I don't  quite get your logic or your Canadian reference, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Every other month there is some crazy new thread started and the "debate" begins. The militant attitude that some guys have on this forum is nutty.

What's wrong with focusing on reality and working with what we have today? Either come to terms with it like JJJrS, waste your life debating over Gho, Nigam and all the rest of the overhyped "cures", or treat your hair loss with the real options we have today. That's it! Ranting about things will not get you any closer to happiness and your time is just ticking away.

----------


## bibz

2018-2020 its not so far, especially for all young guyz with nw 1-2, in 2020, i will have 28 so thats cool, and i will try everything to keep my hair until 2020 to enjoy my life as better as i can  :Smile:

----------


## J_B_Davis

> 2018-2020 its not so far, especially for all young guyz with nw 1-2, in 2020, i will have 28 so thats cool, and i will try everything to keep my hair until 2020 to enjoy my life as better as i can


 That's a great attitude! Stay positive.

----------


## hellouser

> I don't  quite get your logic or your Canadian reference, but you're entitled to your opinion.
> 
> Every other month there is some crazy new thread started and the "debate" begins. The militant attitude that some guys have on this forum is nutty.
> 
> What's wrong with focusing on reality and working with what we have today? Either come to terms with it like JJJrS, waste your life debating over Gho, Nigam and all the rest of the overhyped "cures", or treat your hair loss with the real options we have today. That's it! Ranting about things will not get you any closer to happiness and your time is just ticking away.


 I'm not betting on Nigam or Gho, in fact I have doubts about BOTH and the prices Gho is charging is a slap to the face of anyone suffering from AGA. Theyre not solutions, only supplements to a shitty bandaid thats known as propecia. I'm demanding a proper treatment right NOW. Not 10 years from now. And I'm sure as hell not going to be satisfied with propecia, that fvcking devils pill, still being on the market. It should have run its course a LONG time ago and we're supposed to still accept it?

NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I'm not betting on Nigam or Gho, in fact I have doubts about BOTH and the prices Gho is charging is a slap to the face of anyone suffering from AGA. Theyre not solutions, only supplements to a shitty bandaid thats known as propecia. I'm demanding a proper treatment right NOW. Not 10 years from now. And I'm sure as hell not going to be satisfied with propecia, that fvcking devils pill, still being on the market. It should have run its course a LONG time ago and we're supposed to still accept it?
> 
> NOT GOOD ENOUGH.


 By saying something like that about propecia, it shows how stupid your thought process is. Propecia has changed lives and like any other drug there is side effects, some really bad but only to few people. You're on your way in becoming the next Joe from Staten Island, and because you have that sort of mentality... Sooner or later you will lose it all and have nothing to show for it. You don't have much time, I suggest you reflect.

----------


## hellouser

> By saying something like that about propecia, it shows how stupid your thought process is. Propecia has changed lives and like any other drug there is side effects, some really bad but only to few people. You're on your way in becoming the next Joe from Staten Island, and because you have that sort of mentality... Sooner or later you will lose it all and have nothing to show for it. You don't have much time, I suggest you reflect.


 More complacency.

The passiveness from so many of you is shameful. Makes me wonder why you'd even bother to come onto the forums if you've already got your miracle 'cure' from Propecia. If its good enough, live your life.

We're here in the cutting edge forum to find alternatives. If you want to brag about a 20 year old drug that isnt a cure, I suggest you do it elsewhere.

----------


## sausage

There is practically a cure for NW3's and above.........if you are willing to take it......it all comes back to.......

Propecia, so many leading people in this industry use it and strongly believe it works..........so it must work...........save your NW3 and then get a transplant.

Done!....you are cured my friends.


For those of us that are much further along than NW3......we're screwed.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

or try some of the experimental topical aa's (ru, cb...etc)

----------


## hellouser

> There is practically a cure for NW3's and above.........if you are willing to take it......it all comes back to.......
> 
> Propecia, so many leading people in this industry use it and strongly believe it works..........so it must work...........save your NW3 and then get a transplant.
> 
> Done!....you are cured my friends.
> 
> 
> *For those of us that are much further along than NW3......we're screwed.*


 
Yeah, so how is Propecia supposed to be a wonder pill? Youre better off taking avodart (dutasteride) as it raises testosterone which can lead to a greater sex drive, unlike Fin.

How the fvck can anyone be satisfied with propecia still being the best solution in 2013?? That is mind boggling.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

Is dut really better for sex drive?

----------


## sausage

> Yeah, so how is Propecia supposed to be a wonder pill? Youre better off taking avodart (dutasteride) as it raises testosterone which can lead to a greater sex drive, unlike Fin.
> 
> How the fvck can anyone be satisfied with propecia still being the best solution in 2013?? That is mind boggling.


 I am not a promoter or passionate Propecia maniac......

I am simply saying it must have worked for some people as leading people in the industry use it and have apparently has success with it.

I am sure the people like Spex, Spencer Kobren, Dr Raghu Reddy and Jotronic (I assume they all take it, don't count that as fact) are all happy with it, seeing as far as I am aware they have all kept a lot of their hair.

Yeah it's not what we want as a 'cure' but if it works for you and your willing to do it, it is an option.

For me personally it didn't work. Weirdly a surgeon I spoke to the other day was amazed that it didn't work for me, which confused me.......I am pretty sure it doesn't claim 100% success rates........as far as I know it's more like 80% of men notice some sort of positive result from it.

----------


## hellouser

> I am not a promoter or passionate Propecia maniac......
> 
> I am simply saying it must have worked for some people as leading people in the industry use it and have apparently has success with it.
> 
> I am sure the people like Spex, Spencer Kobren, Dr Raghu Reddy and Jotronic (I assume they all take it, don't count that as fact) are all happy with it, seeing as far as I am aware they have all kept a lot of their hair.
> 
> Yeah it's not what we want as a 'cure' but if it works for you and your willing to do it, it is an option.
> 
> For me personally it didn't work. Weirdly a surgeon I spoke to the other day was amazed that it didn't work for me, which confused me.......I am pretty sure it doesn't claim 100% success rates........as far as I know it's more like 80% of men notice some sort of positive result from it.


 Thats not the point. Its unacceptable that in 2013 this is the best option we've got. THATS the problem.

Where is the push for innovation? A cure? A proper treatment? One time procedure to halt further loss? A regular top up like with Histogen to keep hair growing?

Even if fin works.. it doesnt reverse shit for nearly all men. Thats not a solution to most men, and as pointed out, for higher norwoods its crap.

I'm demanding something better, Propecia shouldnt even be in the discussion in 2013. 

*God DAMN IT we've failed as a hair loss community!!!!*

----------


## Desmond84

I was at a lecture today and our professor of Microbiology was talking about the circle of life and it really grabbed my attention. He said:

*"Life's one big circle. You're born bald and wrinkly, then you have hair and then you lose all your hair and become wrinkly again! It's just a fact of life and we must accept it"*

I don't know, as much as it's definitely true, I still want to fight for my odds as small as they seem to be! 

He's a NW7 btw in his mid 60's. I was really intrigued by the fact that a man of his status with all his academic achievements and great depth of knowledge still has a soft spot for baldness to the point that he used baldness as his example to summarise our lives.

On another note, I was blown away that our professors in Biology see baldness as a natural course of events our body undertakes with no real need for intervention! I think we are starting to find the real reason why it is now 20 years since another product for baldness has been approved! (i.e. post-fin)

I think we should all be *advocates for change* BOTH in the hair loss industry and in the academic arena! We need to discuss the emotional toll baldness brings about followed by the social stigmas that are attached to it. Baldness is not merely a cosmetic issue but also a real cause of psycho-social burden that can have a huge impact on the decisions we make in life (particularly those in the younger age group)

We need NEW generation of biologists who are not afraid to intervene in the Biological clock...acceptance is a fancy word for "stalement", "failure", "giving-up"! And to be honest guys, no one else will do it as fast and wholeheartedly as those that are suffering themselves...

Regardless of what you studied, being Medicine, Biology, Regenerative Medicine, Business, Commerce, advertising, you all can play a role in bringing about change! Some more than others but together we will be unbeatable...

I'm tired of waiting and I'm sure most of you guys are as well...so let's brainstorm a plan of attack! Let's work this out!

----------


## UK_

Why do some people not go bald then?  Why do some people go bald at birth but are NW2 until 70's.

It's ridiculous, I'm actually someone who refuses to accept big pharma conspiracy but there must be something going on here seriously, 2013 and no better treatments than 25 years ago?!?!?!  Are you shitting me?!?!?!

I remember how they used to say "in the future" people will work a lot less and live leisurely lives as technology takes care of our workloads - what a complete con that was, if you're not idiotic enough to cherry-pick aspects of your environment that have become a little easier over the years (talking to your wife while driving a car) then it's clear people are working longer, harder and later on in their lives, they're finding it more difficult to get jobs, to get housing and to even afford the costs of having children.

Big pharma is nothing but one big scam, just look at the field of psychology, it's similar to a global pyramid scheme based upon psuedo-science and garbage like the DSM, the hair loss game is likely no different, you could tell years ago Washenik had no faith in "Ji Gami" they just kept the scam going a little longer and didnt even have the balls to make an open public announcement when they closed.  _"Making waves in Hawaii"_ <<rolf yeah right, more like a sunken ship.

----------


## Desmond84

> Why do some people not go bald then?  Why do some people go bald at birth but are NW2 until 70's.
> 
> It's ridiculous, I'm actually someone who refuses to accept big pharma conspiracy but there must be something going on here seriously, 2013 and no better treatments than 25 years ago?!?!?!  Are you shitting me?!?!?!
> 
> I remember how they used to say "in the future" people will work a lot less and live leisurely lives as technology takes care of our workloads - what a complete con that was, if you're not idiotic enough to cherry-pick aspects of your environment that have become a little easier over the years (talking to your wife while driving a car) then it's clear people are working longer, harder and later on in their lives, they're finding it more difficult to get jobs, to get housing and to even afford the costs of having children.


 +1 UK

Physical work may have become a thing of the past BUT the amount of time and energy spent into our works has definitely increased! Those in retail work much later hours than 50 years ago, those in high profile jobs or real estate need to always have their phone next to them regardless of whether they're working or not...and NOT to mention the pressure those in the health industry are under! Doctors, nurses, surgeons and pharmacists have all been dealt a blow with the increased demand from them for a much lower income!

Then again we are the 99% right! 1% of us are loving life regardless of hair or not!!!

Future is what we make of it...let's change things NOW...our brothers who started going through this mess 12 years ago had so much hope pinned on Hair multiplication...reading their posts from 2002-2006 breaks your heart! I personally don't wanna be the next generation of baldness sufferer that ppl will look back on with a sense of pity for being too wishful! 

We need to demand more from our academics and social media or nothing will change!

----------


## UK_

It doesnt matter either way if you ask me, it's a con-game, you can work all you like the average person will be shovelled shit about becoming substantially wealthy if they "work hard" only to see the value of their labours plummet over a 30 year period due to increasing taxes and inflation which eats 10% of the value of their savings each year, so technicially you get poorer and end up working more and more and more until you're old and classed as a useless eater.

You can circumvent all of this however by joining in on the madness and involving yourself with some of the most corrupt bastards on the face of this earth.  I've also never understood where all the money goes, for the past 20 years we've been paying astronomical amounts of tax, which apparently goes toward paying for public services, however within the space of 3 years after recession (36 ****ing months) EVERY GOVERNMENT ON EARTH turns around _collectively_ and states "we've run out of money, and we need to implement austerity" - there's just something not right about that.

----------


## UK_

The best scam has to be "climate change".

I dont know about you, but the climate has always been changing, it was raining and windy yesterday, it's sunny and mild today.  I dont believe it, I never will, it's all garbage and bullshit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwA1ENqxI

----------


## moore

@Desmond84, that professor made a point. But apart from the suffering, baldness is about knowledge.

It is true that we get old, and age has an impact on physical appearance.
But that is something that we should (and we would of course) accept if we were just animals.

Baldness is only a phenotype that was selected a lot of years ago when getting older was a sign of evolution fitness. AFAIK some species of monkey get bald as well and this is still seen as a sign of maturity from prospective partners.

This does not mean homo sapiens should accept it without any question. 
There should be no dogma in science.

Besides, I think the professor was superficial in stating "you lose all your hair", since that does not appear to be true. Some hair get miniaturized, other hair remain intact even when you are 100 years old, some hair even switch from vellus to terminal while you are balding (ear hair, hair on shoulders, etc).

So understanding these processes should be the key not only to manipulate our follicles and have them in the way we like them to be, but also to reach a physical appearance that we feel as representing our being alive.
We are not just animals. We should be free to decide whether to have hair, where to have it, etc.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

> The best scam has to be "climate change".
> 
> I dont know about you, but the climate has always been changing, it was raining and windy yesterday, it's sunny and mild today.  I dont believe it, I never will, it's all garbage and bullshit.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwA1ENqxI


 Well UK, this has nothing to do with hair loss but I'm glad there's at least one other person on the planet who shares my view on the climate change SCAM  :Smile:  That's what I've been saying. They keep telling us the climate is "changing"... blah blah blah...No kidding! The climate HAS BEEN CHANGING since this planet came into existence. There are deserts where there used to be seas and oceans and the other way around too. The Grand Canyons were once underwater and look at them now. The Arabian desert was once forests and rivers.... But unfortunately, most people are too gullible and are so easily manipulated and brainwashed they just can't use their own brains and common sense to see this simple fact (that the climate and the world itself have always been changing). Are we polluting the planet? Yes. Is there global warming? NO. A few years ago snow fell in the UAE for the first time ever! The Central Valley in California had deep freeze for about 2 weeks in the early 90's! It was like a record for that area to have such extremely cold temps. What those scammers (scientists) say about it? Well, listen to this, they said just because it's called global WARMING that doesn't necessarily mean temps are only going to be going up!! How funny and stupid that is !! So, to those scammers the word "warming" can also mean the opposite -temps will dip! Seriously ? How can they say such bull shit with a straight face ? 

Indeed, this is one of the BIGGEST scams ever and the whole thing is just a way for a few people to make a nice living out of selling this scam. Ask Al Gore (who likes to preach about "global warming" travelling in his private commercial jet !!!!). 
Anyway, like they say, repeat a lie a 100 times and it will become a fact....and most people will believe it.

Oh yeah, to the guy who asked whether he should hold off on the HT, NO. Just go ahead and get it done. You're fooling yourself and only wasting precious time if you believe there's going to be a cure or a good treatment any time soon. Just go and get it done, NOW. It's been said a million times but I'll say it again, we've been hearing about a "cure" coming in the near future for the past 20 years or so....Chances are we're going to be saying this 20 years from now.

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## sausage

> Thats not the point. Its unacceptable that in 2013 this is the best option we've got. THATS the problem.
> 
> Where is the push for innovation? A cure? A proper treatment? One time procedure to halt further loss? A regular top up like with Histogen to keep hair growing?
> 
> Even if fin works.. it doesnt reverse shit for nearly all men. Thats not a solution to most men, and as pointed out, for higher norwoods its crap.
> 
> I'm demanding something better, Propecia shouldnt even be in the discussion in 2013. 
> 
> *God DAMN IT we've failed as a hair loss community!!!!*


 Well I did say I agreed with that point about it being pretty crap that we don't have a cure yet.......I am not sure 'unacceptable' is the right word but when you hear about some of the amazing things being done in relation to biological science, you do wonder how things like blindness might actually be cured before baldness, seeing as curing blindness seems incredible, to me it seems like a much more difficult thing to do when compared to making hair grow or at least remain on the head. Also, recently it was announced a cure for dementia will be found soon.

I don't know what is going on in the world of hair science so I can't really comment on whether or not scientists, doctors, pharmacists are doing enough to help cure baldness. I would have thought there are many many people out there putting their time and effort into finding a cure as it will make them filthy rich if they do. But it also costs a lot of money to do the research in the first place.

A lot of things today are being cured by cells........isn't that is what is being talked about today in relation to baldness........

Can't we just inject some cells into the head that form follicles and tadah.....hair grows.

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## walrus

> The best scam has to be "climate change".
> 
> I dont know about you, but the climate has always been changing, it was raining and windy yesterday, it's sunny and mild today.  I dont believe it, I never will, it's all garbage and bullshit.


 Off topic: but if you think that large scale, global, climate change is relatable to day - to - day weather variation that you witness within your own limited lifespan - you misunderstand the theory.

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## UK_

^^^^Oh you can bet your ass it's a theory and nothing more.  Lol thank you for agreeing with me.

Have a nice day. :Big Grin: 

And even if somehow you did harbour every drop of scientific wisdom known to man about how the climate works, you probably wouldnt even come close to understanding a percentile of how the earths climate really works.  You're just human, having access to google scholar and first world education doesnt make you God.

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## walrus

> ^^^^Oh you can bet your ass it's a theory and nothing more.  Lol thank you for agreeing with me.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> And even if somehow you did harbour every drop of scientific wisdom known to man about how the climate works, you probably wouldnt even come close to understanding a percentile of how the earths climate really works.  You're just human, having access to google scholar and first world education doesnt make you God.


 Just a theory like gravity and evolution, right?  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## UK_

> Just a theory like gravity and evolution, right?


 Yes, along with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism... Santa Claus & the tooth fairy  :Stick Out Tongue: 

The difference is the degree of probability in something being correct vs something being incorrect, climate change is common sense, in the 80's there were reports of 'global cooling', the past 3 winters in Britain have been the longest in the past 30 years, last year winter stretched from mid-September to early March.

I can't see any 'climate change' or global warming, also, there were foundations back in the 60's that stated they would *invent* a 'common threat' to unite the people of earth (nation states), they actually stated that issues surrounding the environment and climate would "fit the bill".

You're being conned.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Pentarou

^ now that's anti-intellectualism.

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## Pentarou

> I think we should all be *advocates for change* BOTH in the hair loss industry and in the academic arena!


 100% agreement.

Des, I know what you mean about the frustration of hearing your professor say that baldness is inevitable and unfightable - that's unfortunately just the social norm of 'acceptance', in other words, defeatism. And it's not even based completely in reality, as people who have successfully used the Big 3 and/or Dut can verify, AGA hair loss is certainly treatable, if only to some degree. It wasn't always treatable of course, just as diabetes or asthma or cancer weren't treatable 200 years ago, but advances in medical treatments happened. Maybe AGA won't be cured in our lifetimes, but there's certainly the chance of new treatments making this disease far more fightable, and thus our lives far more tolerable and enjoyable.

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## greatjob!

> The best scam has to be "climate change".
> 
> I dont know about you, but the climate has always been changing, it was raining and windy yesterday, it's sunny and mild today.  I dont believe it, I never will, it's all garbage and bullshit.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwA1ENqxI


 You obviously have not a clue in hell about the difference between climate and weather. Ignorance like yours is the reason the energy industry has been able to create false doubt on climate science.

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## TheSwingingGate

I would like to add, as someone who has returned to the academic world, it can be a bubble. Des, your professor might not think MPB is a big deal - but sometimes profs live in a "la-la" land anyway! :Smile:

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## Thinning87

> You obviously have not a clue in hell about the difference between climate and weather. Ignorance like yours is the reason the energy industry has been able to create false doubt on climate science.


 I agree - let's stick to the original topic, shall we?

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## hiilikeyourbeard

> I agree - let's stick to the original topic, shall we?


 better commercial treatment, maybe 5 years

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## VictimOfDHT

> You obviously have not a clue in hell about the difference between climate and weather. Ignorance like yours is the reason the energy industry has been able to create false doubt on climate science.


 
Can you say SHEEPLE, sheeple?

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## greatjob!

> Can you say SHEEPLE, sheeple?


 Well I guess if following science, evidence, and concrete facts makes me a sheep, then Baaaaa Baaaaa!

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## sausage

If anyone finds a cure I'd happily be your personal slave for a year.

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## Javert

^ This.

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## Tomb10

when you've got dupa..
will a new possible cure than also work for these hairloss sufferers..?

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## BaldAndHairy

> Nothing. Some asshat by the name of Cotsarelis throughout his typical bullsh*t response of 'within 2 years' as if it were an attempt to bring more media attention to himself.
> 
> Liars, the whole f*cking lot of them.


 That's pretty sad. Dr. Cotsarelis is a widely published medical scientist. People don't go into it for fame or money. And he's working for you.

Like, imagine a kid with cancer saying "f!@# my doctors, they can't help me out anymore. God damn them"

Grow up.

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## greatjob!

> That's pretty sad. Dr. Cotsarelis is a widely published medical scientist. People don't go into it for fame or money. And he's working for you.
> 
> Like, imagine a kid with cancer saying "f!@# my doctors, they can't help me out anymore. God damn them"
> 
> Grow up.


 Yeah really f*ck that guy! He has only completely changed the current knowledge on mpb and nearly every treatment in development is either directly or in directly a result of his research, f*cking asshole! LOL!

Seriously some of you guys need to up your dosage and stop being such little bitching drama queens. Just because you want something, like a cure for mpb, or you think it should be easy doesn't make it so, or bring it to fruition.

It's ironic that people sitting on their ass on a hairloss forum are so angry at the people who are actually doing something to make a cure or better treatment a reality.

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## hellouser

> That's pretty sad. Dr. Cotsarelis is a widely published medical scientist. People don't go into it for fame or money. And he's working for you.
> 
> Like, imagine a kid with cancer saying "f!@# my doctors, they can't help me out anymore. God damn them"
> 
> Grow up.


 A realistic approach from Cotsarelis would be far more appreciated rather than leading on and fooling every hair loss sufferer who's heard of him. Unless of course, you're contempt with 2 year promises?

Obviously, you haven't been around long enough to know about Cotsarelis, which is probably true seeing how you're new to the forum and only got 12 posts.

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## BaldAndHairy

> A realistic approach from Cotsarelis would be far more appreciated rather than leading on and fooling every hair loss sufferer who's heard of him. Unless of course, you're contempt with 2 year promises?
> 
> Obviously, you haven't been around long enough to know about Cotsarelis, which is probably true seeing how you're new to the forum and only got 12 posts.


 "Around long enough"???? This forum is nothing but speculation, spam, and desperation.

I've worked in research and let me tell you, it is very complicated. Every baldness drug on the market right now was discovered by accident. Cotsarelis is working from the science into treatment--"translational research"-- with actual medical knowledge. That is hard. Nature is complicated.

Trying to deliver a positive honest message here to people..just seems to be a bunch of whiners on this forum who are so smart they are willing to put their money into a defunct company that is selling its erlenmeyer flasks.

Read Cotsarelis' patents. They are going to make holes in your head at artful angles, insert growth factor-containing gel in said holes, and you will have new hair follicles grow.

Then, you can maintain your hair with a combinatinon of rogaine, bimatoprost, and CRTH2 antagonists. May be a lot more.

You should take a molecular biology class. Seriously. You will learn a lot. Also, work in a lab. You will learn.

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## Morbo

Actually Cotsarelis went on record later on saying he was misquoted by the article, there were no medical trials (nor did he reach an agreement with pharmaceutical companies yet), and if there was it would still take at least 5 years.

Offcourse the first '2 year cure'-article was reported by pretty much every media outlet, the correction by maximum 2.

Anyway it's probably still somewhere on this site.

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## hellouser

> Actually Cotsarelis went on record later on saying he was misquoted by the article, there were no medical trials (nor did he reach an agreement with pharmaceutical companies yet), and if there was it would still take at least 5 years.
> 
> Offcourse the first '2 year cure'-article was reported by pretty much every media outlet, the correction by maximum 2.��
> 
> Anyway it's probably still somewhere on this site.


 False.

Here's a video evidence of him saying, word for word 'If everything goes perfectly, its possible that *within a few years* we'll have something thats available as a new treatment.'

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaLaMBHIdBs

Skip past to 2:15 minute mark.

This was back in either end of 2010 as the video was posted on January 2nd, 2011. Even the women after said we could have a treatment in 3-4 years. Yeah? Well, its August, 2013 and there's still nothing. So either its by end of next year or another failed promise. 

Also, funny how Cotsarelis says he doesnt want the public to use a cheese grater... yeah no shit! LOL, because if the theory is true and works as he claims it does, we could dermaroll and wound ourselves leaving him and Follica's plans to die without a product to SELL to us.

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## Desmond84

I love the name of this thread....wish it could happen sooner rather than later! 

Hellouser whats happening with our public awareness idea? I just read that we have a chemist on board as well working on a solution for cb...thats awesome!

I just heard back from one of the uni's I applied to and one if the researchers seems fascinated by tsuji labs work... we're meeting up on 9th september to see if I can do my phD on it....fingers crossed

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## Morbo

> False.
> 
> Here's a video evidence of him saying, word for word 'If everything goes perfectly, its possible that *within a few years* we'll have something thats available as a new treatment.'
> 
> Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaLaMBHIdBs
> 
> Skip past to 2:15 minute mark.
> 
> This was back in either end of 2010 as the video was posted on January 2nd, 2011. Even the women after said we could have a treatment in 3-4 years. Yeah? Well, its August, 2013 and there's still nothing. So either its by end of next year or another failed promise. 
> ...


 I was actually talking about the latest Cotsarelis research article which was reported earlier this year and appeared on this forum quite a few times. I'm currently on my mobile, I'll link you that one tomorrow.

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## Thinning87

What's up with all this hate for follica. We need them!

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## greatjob!

> What's up with all this hate for follica. We need them!


 This is a hairloss forum, hate and speculation is what it does best...

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## Morbo

> I was actually talking about the latest Cotsarelis research article which was reported earlier this year and appeared on this forum quite a few times. I'm currently on my mobile, I'll link you that one tomorrow.


 
I was referring to these

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/bal...-market-years/

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_.../2012/03/hair/




> From George Cotsarelis:
> Thank you for your interest in our research. If you have hair loss, we recommend seeing a dermatologist, as there are other causes of hair loss and some treatments currently available.
> 
> We are not performing any clinical trials at this time. The findings from this study have not yet led to any clinical trials. Please refer to the National Institutes of Health clinical trial site clinicaltrials.gov for ongoing hair loss studies.
> 
> *Some media outlets have inaccurately reported that a drug may be available in two years. To clarify, if everything goes well, a treatment could start being tested in clinical trials within 2 years. The time to market, were the clinical trial successful, is more difficult to predict, but could be several more years after that pending FDA approval.*
> 
> This research would not have been possible without public and private grants. If you would like support biomedical research directly, please consider supporting Penn's Dermatology research.

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## thechamp

We are ****ed no cure comming

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## moore

ah camon, let's be positive..
Anyway..

http://science.howstuffworks.com/lif...dness-gene.htm

"Because hair loss has no cure and is a matter of vanity..."

I hate them so much when they publish such bullsh1t.

----------


## fred970

Vanity? Most of us just want to look normal for our age.

----------


## clandestine

> ah camon, let's be positive..
> Anyway..
> 
> http://science.howstuffworks.com/lif...dness-gene.htm
> 
> "Because hair loss has no cure and is a matter of vanity..."
> 
> I hate them so much when they publish such bullsh1t.


 No words, I swear to fvck.

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## moore

Here's another one

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/techn...aldness/56715/

"Essentially, every hair follicle on your head produces a hair every two to six years and then lies dormant for a few weeks or months. For those who suffer from baldness, these follicles simply stop waking up over time. Then, a breakdown in communication stops new skin cells from becoming follicles -- they become regular skin cells instead"

No hair follicles form after birth
(aderansresearch.com - dermoday.com - dermpathmd.com)

"Hair development begins in the third fetal month. By the fifth month, lanugo (thin hair) covers the fetus. At 5 months, lanugo disappears from every area except the scalp and eyebrows where coarser hair replaces it. Vellus (a film of delicate hair) eventually covers the rest of the body. Terminal hair is the early coarse scalp and eyebrow hair and later armpit and genital hair that grow during puberty. No new hair follicles develop after birth."

I hate them so much.

anyway, if you haven't read it yet:
Hair!: Mankind's Historic Quest to End Baldness (Google eBook)
http://books.google.it/books?id=omYBD2Ncn4YC

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