# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments >  Finasteride didn't work for you? So, did DUT?

## jamesst11

Who among you had an opposite reaction to fin (more aggressive hair loss) and switched to dutasteride?  I just took my first pill.  The last 10 months have been living hell on fin.  Has anyone had a positive experience doing this or am I just foolish?

** THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT MAY BENEFIT SEVERAL PEOPLE SO INPUT IS REQUIRED!!**  :Wink:

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## startedAT16

What do u mean by more aggressive hair loss?

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## warner8

so for me, fin slowed down my hairloss, but its still progressing. i switched to a topical fin bc the pill is just not doing it for me anymore. 


> Who among you had an opposite reaction to fin (more aggressive hair loss) and switched to dutasteride?  I just took my first pill.  The last 10 months have been living hell on fin.  Has anyone had a positive experience doing this or am I just foolish?
> 
> ** THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT MAY BENEFIT SEVERAL PEOPLE SO INPUT IS REQUIRED!!**

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## jamesst11

> What do u mean by more aggressive hair loss?


 I mean - I had a stable crown for 33 years, just a little thin and 10 months on fin and it's almost completely bald... the rest of my head went from diffused thin, but somewhat manageable to horrible diffused.  I now have a pretty thin comb over all over my top scalp.

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## jamesst11

> so for me, fin slowed down my hairloss, but its still progressing. i switched to a topical fin bc the pill is just not doing it for me anymore.


 You think topical fin will be any better? where are you getting it from? I just ordered the 15% minox w/ fin, progesterone, hydrocortisone and azeliac acid from murray apothecary.  It's a cream.  I am going to stay on DUT and use this cream.  If this sh*t doesn't work, my hair is done for.

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## Ziggyz123

What's up James, haven't talked to you in a while. I know you know my experience with fin. After a year had basically a reflex and shed 300 hairs a day with massive scalp burning itching pain etc..

I've been taking brand name avodart now for about 4.5 months. I noticed no reduction of scalp oil really and still get little pimples on the back of my scalp (probably seb derm).. However, my scalp pain in the left temple is nearly gone, but the right is still receding and has some itching to it.. 

I'll tell you that I feel 100% better on dutasteride and have ZERO SIDES. My extreme libido that actually became frustrating leveled out to normal within the first maybe 2 weeks. Id say it does help when fin can't. I also got dut powder from a gb so that I can up my dose if .5 gives in on me seeing as I have no sides.

Just give duta a little bit because you'll see some signs with your body telling you it's working. Unfortunately, I still shed about 15 hairs showering and another 40 blow drying. 

But yeah, in my opinion, it can definitely help when fin f***** you over.

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## jamesst11

ZIGGY!!! What's up brother?  I was wondering where you have been.  Especially ever since my experience on finasteride, for TEN months, started to mirror yours.  In my opinion finasteride is f*cking bullsh*t and I hate that crap! haha... it has screwed me BIG TIME.  Are you seeing any regrowth on dutasteride?  I can't believe it's gotten to the point where I am taking this, but I have run out of options. What is dutasteride powder?  How did you get that prescribed to you?

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## Ziggyz123

Yeah bro, fin in my eyes is a far worse drug.. Don't ask me why, but I just feel better on dutasteride. No regrowth really.. Actually, the back of my scalp started getting thin and that filled in it seems in just four months. Caught that one early though lol. My temples are slowly receding, but the short minaturized hairs actually are growing out longer on dutasteride.

Dutasteride powder is basically just dutasteride in powder form lol. I bought 10 grams of it so I'll literally never run out. I still take avodart, but like I said if I need to up my dose, it won't break my wallet.

Before I got on dut though I took a 2 month break from AA's so idk if that somehow let me reset in a way from the bad effects of fin? Anyway, dut may be helping and it takes a lot for me to say that. Going to Wait til 6 month mark to Reevaluate if I'm doing better. 

Are you on a legit generic? Give it like two weeks of ED usage and you should feel if your responding at all. You really won't see results til 6-12 months just like fin. I started getting less of an itch this month actually so it def takes time.

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## Balding Bad

> Who among you had an opposite reaction to fin (more aggressive hair loss) and switched to dutasteride?  I just took my first pill.  The last 10 months have been living hell on fin.  Has anyone had a positive experience doing this or am I just foolish?
> 
> ** THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT MAY BENEFIT SEVERAL PEOPLE SO INPUT IS REQUIRED!!**


 I'm just curious, do you have any before and after photos from using Fin, because I am contemplating going on Fin myself, but if it's as bad as you claim it is then I will definitely need to reconsider!

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## jamesst11

> I'm just curious, do you have any before and after photos from using Fin, because I am contemplating going on Fin myself, but if it's as bad as you claim it is then I will definitely need to reconsider!


 I don't do the before after photo thing because I am still ashamed of all my mistakes and need to come to terms with that.  You will just have to take my word on it.  Most people on here have heard my story and there's absolutely no reason I would dramatize or make anything up... my hair is complete shit.  That being said - don't take my situation as the standard, because apparently it's not.  There are a lot of other people that have had the same effects as me, such as Ziggy and you can find this documented all over the internet, BUT there are tons of success stories too.  If you really value your hair and if you are seriously losing it, then fin or dut is all you have (definitely try fin for at least 10 months first)... with minoxidil.  It's all you can do brother. good luck.

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## jamesst11

> Yeah bro, fin in my eyes is a far worse drug.. Don't ask me why, but I just feel better on dutasteride. No regrowth really.. Actually, the back of my scalp started getting thin and that filled in it seems in just four months. Caught that one early though lol. My temples are slowly receding, but the short minaturized hairs actually are growing out longer on dutasteride.
> 
> Dutasteride powder is basically just dutasteride in powder form lol. I bought 10 grams of it so I'll literally never run out. I still take avodart, but like I said if I need to up my dose, it won't break my wallet.
> 
> Before I got on dut though I took a 2 month break from AA's so idk if that somehow let me reset in a way from the bad effects of fin? Anyway, dut may be helping and it takes a lot for me to say that. Going to Wait til 6 month mark to Reevaluate if I'm doing better. 
> 
> Are you on a legit generic? Give it like two weeks of ED usage and you should feel if your responding at all. You really won't see results til 6-12 months just like fin. I started getting less of an itch this month actually so it def takes time.


 I could not get a single doc to prescribe it to me, so I went the online pharmacy route (which I hate doing)... It's from internationalpharm.net, which seems somewhat legit and has relatively cheap DUT... The packaging looks totally legit and the compound is in red gel caps?  who knows really... hope to God it's legit.

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## jamesst11

Ziggy,
    couple more questions:
 1) what dosage of DUT are you taking?
 2) how did it rid of your scalp sensations
 3) I have the oilest hair line right now... it's like my entire forehead is dry, then one inch below the hair line I can literally wipe the oil off... did you experience this on fin?  and, if your did... has DUT helped this?

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## Ziggyz123

Dude I got mine prescribed online actually and they sent the script to my pharmacy. It's was medical wellness .com..

I'm on .5mg avodart right now and my hairline was pretty oily actually. It started going away within the first month on it. Now it's barely oily at 4 months on. It GRADUALLY started getting my scalp sensations under control. I still get some itches on my hairline still though, but no burning pains (knock on wood).. 

I'd say duta definitely helped my scalp oil over time compared to fin. I have Setipiprant that I'm also toying around with now. That also seems to help a lot with the oil. I'm still slowly losing on both of these, but no where near as much as I was on fin. Dutasteride is just a better drug in my eyes so go into this with an open mind. I know it's hard because of what happened to both of us.

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## Soonbald

> I could not get a single doc to prescribe it to me, so I went the online pharmacy route (which I hate doing)... It's from internationalpharm.net, which seems somewhat legit and has relatively cheap DUT... The packaging looks totally legit and the compound is in red gel caps?  who knows really... hope to God it's legit.


 

if FIN didnt do shit for you for 10 months and only made things "worse" even when FIN blocked alot of DHT. how would dutasteride work much better and thicken up and stop your hairloss? and I dont Believe the shit people say that they feel "much better" on dutasteride lol...thats most likely because dutasteride raises more testosterone than FIN..xD  have you even tried RU in neogenic for a few months james?? have you seriously tried that? I read a guy using minox and FIN for years..it didint do much for his hair he said but he then added RU and his hair thickened up greatly...

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## jamesst11

> if FIN didnt do shit for you for 10 months and only made things "worse" even when FIN blocked alot of DHT. how would dutasteride work much better and thicken up and stop your hairloss? and I dont Believe the shit people say that they feel "much better" on dutasteride lol...thats most likely because dutasteride raises more testosterone than FIN..xD  have you even tried RU in neogenic for a few months james?? have you seriously tried that? I read a guy using minox and FIN for years..it didint do much for his hair he said but he then added RU and his hair thickened up greatly...


 I have read and seen photos of quite a few accounts where DUT worked better for people than fin.  You can google it and a few will come up on different forums.  Have you seen the study regarding scalp DHT levels while on fin vs. dut?  Dut has a much better effect at lowering BOTH serum DHT and SCALP DHT levels than finasteride.  IF you are experiencing reflex hyperandro.. on finasteride, that means that your body is counteracting the drug by creating more receptors for DHT... So, if that theory is correct, then despite the REDUCTION of DHT in your scalp, it will more easily bind because it has somewhere to go.. NOW, theoretically again, IF dutasteride DRASTICALLY drops scalp DHT levels, then despite the upregulation of receptors, there is not enough DHT to greatly bind to and impact those follicles??  - I don't know if my reasoning is off here, it just makes sense to me.  I will try this for a few months and IF it doesn't work, then I am going completely topical and RU would be the first place I turn.

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## jamesst11

I am still micro-dosing fin, because I believe my body is used to it and will gradually taper off.  I am just supplementing with DUT, .5mg per day as well.  Time will tell! I am also starting to up my % of minox, probably just out of shits and giggles.  But my theory in this is that, in using 5% for over 3 years, I can gradually increase to 10% and it might do something.

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## Not giving up

Hi James, interesting thread brother. 

I have started micro dosing fin myself. Second week in and like yourself and ziggy my scalp sensations haven't gotten much worse. It's early days though so I'm not panicked yet. 

Anyway, dut seems bloody scary to me. A drop that severe in DHT, surely long term that can't be good for the body?
But then again, it could be the answer. 

Just think long and hard before diving into it. It's seemingly working well for ziggy so it could for you too, just don't make this decision lightly.

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## jamesst11

> Hi James, interesting thread brother. 
> 
> I have started micro dosing fin myself. Second week in and like yourself and ziggy my scalp sensations haven't gotten much worse. It's early days though so I'm not panicked yet. 
> 
> Anyway, dut seems bloody scary to me. A drop that severe in DHT, surely long term that can't be good for the body?
> But then again, it could be the answer. 
> 
> Just think long and hard before diving into it. It's seemingly working well for ziggy so it could for you too, just don't make this decision lightly.


 trust me, it's taken me years to come to this decision.  Hair loss is SEVERELY impacting my life.  I have a transplant scar, and weird transplants that give me nightmares and horrible anxiety.  Losing the rest of my hair is a social death sentence.  I wish I didn't look at it that way.  I didn't have sexual sides on fin, just an increase in the rate of loss.  I am hoping that SOMEHOW, DUT and a higher minoxidil concentration will regrow at least what I have lost on finasteride.  This is my last stand.

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## BaldingEagle

Really hope things work out for you James. 

I know Dr. Shapiro personally used fin and got no visible results, he swapped to dut and it thickened his hair. 

Also the best way to fight up regulation (especially local like in your scalp) would probably be to lower the androgens beyond what your body can counter. Dut is vastly superior to fin on paper, and definitely has shown the best recovery I've ever seen, a nw3 to 1.5. 

I really think we'll have at least one new treatment in 5 years and I doubt 5 years of dut will do irreversible damage. Even 20 year smokers can fully recover. The human body is amazing.

If fin ever stops for me I'll be on dut too.

Please keep us updated on your progress, everyone deserves a chance to fight this ****ing curse.

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## BaldingHelpMe

> trust me, it's taken me years to come to this decision.


 James, how are you doing on dut?

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## BaldingHelpMe

> trust me, it's taken me years to come to this decision.


 James, how are you doing on dut? Also, don't take both dut and fin together like I did, it was a mistake.

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## jamesst11

> James, how are you doing on dut? Also, don't take both dut and fin together like I did, it was a mistake.


 why would it be a mistake?  I don't really see how this would have a negative effect, especially if you've had no sides on fin.  That being said, I am still micro dosing fin for the first month on DUT, simply because I don't believe in quitting a medication cold turkey.  I will slowly ween my body off of it, while acclimating it to the new dosage of DUT.  So far so good man.  After almost a year of infuriating, frustrating, NON-STOP scalp sensations, I swear to you, I barely notice them now.  I have only been on DUT for a couple weeks, but last night was the best night in a LONG TIME - I laid in bed and my scalp felt F*CKING GOOD.  No "ants crawling through it", no pin point burning and very minimal itching.  Now, in full disclosure, I did start a compounded 15% minox recently as well, so I don't know which is having the positive effect.  I am just f*cking fed up as hell and am going all in.  This is my last stand.  I am still shedding heavy, but if that stops I will run in the streets naked screaming "hallelujah" and start kissing old ladies on the mouth.

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## jamesst11

bump.... anyone else have FIN VS DUT stories??? Come on now, give a brotha' some advice or hope.

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## jamesst11

> if FIN didnt do shit for you for 10 months and only made things "worse" even when FIN blocked alot of DHT. how would dutasteride work much better and thicken up and stop your hairloss? and I dont Believe the shit people say that they feel "much better" on dutasteride lol...thats most likely because dutasteride raises more testosterone than FIN..xD  have you even tried RU in neogenic for a few months james?? have you seriously tried that? I read a guy using minox and FIN for years..it didint do much for his hair he said but he then added RU and his hair thickened up greatly...


 Soonbald,
    I understand what you are saying, but testosterone is only one side of the story.  What about the DRASTIC reduction in scalp DHT through dutasteride?  Ziggy might be feeling better because while on finasteride he had an up-regulation of DHT receptors... by drastically dropping his scalp DHT levels through dutas, perhaps the up-regulation isn't as effective, cause there's less DHT to bind.  Yes, dutas may increase your testosterone, but the impact of test as an androgen on the follicle is all speculative.  No one knows if that's what is causing the hair loss.

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## blohan

> Who among you had an opposite reaction to fin (more aggressive hair loss) and switched to dutasteride?  I just took my first pill.  The last 10 months have been living hell on fin.  Has anyone had a positive experience doing this or am I just foolish?
> 
> ** THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT MAY BENEFIT SEVERAL PEOPLE SO INPUT IS REQUIRED!!**


 Why was it hell?

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## jamesst11

The first couple months were fine.  Months 3-10 were absolute living hell.  I watched my entire head of hair just get slowly eaten away.  It became A LOT harder to hide all the balding spots and I had rapid hair loss in areas that never experienced it before.  People that say finasteride cannot speed up hair loss are completely full of shit.  100% full of shit.  I don't know if it was reflex hyperandro.. or high T, but it just chewed the hell out of my hair.  The worst part was the damn creepy crawling sensation throughout the left side of my head.  Made me insane.  I was dating an awesome woman, that ended.  I don't know how people can date when they are going through this.  I also had bad insomnia (which may have been perpetuated by the anxiety) and increased sex drive.  

    I think it's crazy that after that experience, I am still on finasteride and now trying DUT.  When I get my RU (monday) I may just go completely topical and quit all these oral AA's.  

    SWOOPING - I would like to here your opinion on this - You know my story with fin and have been around for a long time.  You have also done very thorough research and are well educated on these matters.  While I KNOW there is definitive answer or even a reputable theory for this, what would you do?  Transition to DUT and RU, or just go with the RU and minox?

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## blohan

> The first couple months were fine.  Months 3-10 were absolute living hell.  I watched my entire head of hair just get slowly eaten away.  It became A LOT harder to hide all the balding spots and I had rapid hair loss in areas that never experienced it before.  People that say finasteride cannot speed up hair loss are completely full of shit.  100% full of shit.  I don't know if it was reflex hyperandro.. or high T, but it just chewed the hell out of my hair.  The worst part was the damn creepy crawling sensation throughout the left side of my head.  Made me insane.  I was dating an awesome woman, that ended.  I don't know how people can date when they are going through this.  I also had bad insomnia (which may have been perpetuated by the anxiety) and increased sex drive.  
> 
>     I think it's crazy that after that experience, I am still on finasteride and now trying DUT.  When I get my RU (monday) I may just go completely topical and quit all these oral AA's.  
> 
>     SWOOPING - I would like to here your opinion on this - You know my story with fin and have been around for a long time.  You have also done very thorough research and are well educated on these matters.  While I KNOW there is definitive answer or even a reputable theory for this, what would you do?  Transition to DUT and RU, or just go with the RU and minox?


 What is DUT and was it worth it? Did your hair grow back?

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## jamesst11

> What is DUT and was it worth it? Did your hair grow back?


 DUT is similar to fin, but much stronger.  It blocks both types of DHT and drastically reduces both serum and scalp DHT levels in comparison to finasteride.  I have been on it a month.  I have a feeling it is just going to make things worst, but what the hell else should I do.  I am considering dropping all oral androgen inhibitors and starting my RU along with my 15% minox... don't know.  no one has advice on this

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## jamesst11

> What is DUT and was it worth it? Did your hair grow back?


 Sorry, meant to say it blocks both types of 5-alpha reductase ENZYMES that are responsible for converting T to DHT... thus less DHT.

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## blohan

> DUT is similar to fin, but much stronger.  It blocks both types of DHT and drastically reduces both serum and scalp DHT levels in comparison to finasteride.  I have been on it a month.  I have a feeling it is just going to make things worst, but what the hell else should I do.  I am considering dropping all oral androgen inhibitors and starting my RU along with my 15% minox... don't know.  no one has advice on this


 much wrose how?? side effects? have you experienced impotence? and what about your hair? is it working?

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## eighteen

Nice thread, im considering jumping on dut since fin isnt working for me . I ve been on fin for around 6 months and im shedding like crazy even though I wasnt really even a shedder before hand?

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## Dispare

Unfortunately DUT didn't work for me.

I'm diffuse NW6 with a thickish (but fading fast) hair line and heave diffuse in crown.

Was on Fin for a year but thinning continued, then jumped on to DUT. Unfortunately, been on it a year and the rate of thinning has continued.

Pretty gutted, was hoping it would stabilise so I could have a transplant but I don't think this is going to be an option. I guess I am one of the few that doesn't respond to Fin or Dut. 

I have read some great success story on both, I guess I'm just unlucky.

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## jamesst11

F*ck... this gives me no hope.  I should just get off of DUT and FIN.  I had the same experience... just perpetual loss for 11 months.  Maybe I'll just topical - RU and 15% minox. RAWR!!!!!!

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## Dispare

> F*ck... this gives me no hope.  I should just get off of DUT and FIN.  I had the same experience... just perpetual loss for 11 months.  Maybe I'll just topical - RU and 15% minox. RAWR!!!!!!


 I wouldn't give up hope.

There have been cases to guy's responding to DUT when FIN failed. Nothing stopping you adding RU and Minox whist continuing DUT.

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## jamesst11

> I wouldn't give up hope.
> 
> There have been cases to guy's responding to DUT when FIN failed. Nothing stopping you adding RU and Minox whist continuing DUT.


 yeah... just mixed my first week of RU.. couldn't get ALL of it to dissolve in solution though... any one else experience this?  I am using 10% concentration at 1.5 ML / day.  that's about 10.5ml solvent (70/30) and about 1000 mg RU.  10% to jump start, then will reduce to 7.5 then 5%.

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## eighteen

How old are all of you guys im 19.

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## jamesst11

> How old are all of you guys im 19.


 33... do you have a question?

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## eighteen

Just wondering because alot of non respondersare around my age. Also wanna see in terms of sides and age.

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## jamesst11

> Just wondering because alot of non respondersare around my age. Also wanna see in terms of sides and age.


 interesting you say that age may influence this... but I think if you're a non-responder at 19, chances are you will be at 33.  Your hormone physiology and how you will respond can't change that drastically, perhaps maybe when you're a lot older.  Same with sides.  After your twenties, not too much changes.  If you're gonna have sides, you'll have them.

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## eighteen

I think age may influence it because generally the younger you start the more aggressive the hairloss is especially if you start when T and dht arent at their peak... your follicles would be growing more sensitive while androgens are being increased at the same time which may cause it to be harder to treat. Just a theory though.

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## tedwuji

> I think age may influence it because generally the younger you start the more aggressive the hairloss is especially if you start when T and dht arent at their peak... your follicles would be growing more sensitive while androgens are being increased at the same time which may cause it to be harder to treat. Just a theory though.


 It's pretty much established the earlier the onset the more aggressive the outcome with balding. That being said I would try giving finasteride the 12 months Merck recommends to see results. If that doesn't work you can always bring out "the big guns" (dutasteride).

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## tedwuji

I will also say that if finasteride ever stopped working for me, I would probably go on dutasteride and potentially even begin using minoxidil foam for added measure.

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## eighteen

Ahh i swear man my hair gets worse with every haircut.  It seems the top of my head is more stable but im getting more and more  diffused in the hair line...

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## tedwuji

> Ahh i swear man my hair gets worse with every haircut.  It seems the top of my head is more stable but im getting more and more  diffused in the hair line...


 Yeah, the hairline is the first to go in typical Norwood patterns... Are you on finasteride or not? I don't feel like reading all this.

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## eighteen

Yeah im on fin been on it for around 6 months.

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## tedwuji

> Yeah im on fin been on it for around 6 months.


 Ok for me i saw things happen right around 8 months.

What you must understand, and most guys really dont.... the drug first has to lower your DHT and do it long enough to alter the actual follicles (restoring them to health by limiting DHT accumulation) and this alone takes MONTHS. Then after that hair needs to grow and hair grows pretty slow. So really, ypu will be best served by waiting AT LEAST 9 months and preferably the full 12 before making any value judgememt whatsoever. And this advice really isnt my own its Mercks and its just the way it is. 

Again: give it time, if it doesnt work talk to a doctor about dutasteride if you want a stronger AA class drug.

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## jamesst11

The drug induces changes at the cellular level of the follicle, o.k.. therefor, you would expect the hair to enter telogen and shed about 3 months after initiation of the DHT reduction.  That is why people get a shed 3-6 months in.  After that, I don't see any reason why you should still be shedding massive amounts of hair.  It makes no sense to me.  At 6 months hair shedding should be DONE, especially if on minoxidil.  If you are losing crazy amounts of hair at 9,10,11 months and observing minimal regrowth and, instead miniaturization, the drug is f*cking you.  Get off.  That being said, I am starting to lean more towards the theory that if Finasteride makes you lose MORE hair, and rapidly, then DUT will do the same if not worst.  If you simply maintain on fin, or have a little lose, I think DUT has a better chance of being more succesful. This is why I think I need off of all of these.

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## tedwuji

> The drug induces changes at the cellular level of the follicle, o.k.. therefor, you would expect the hair to enter telogen and shed about 3 months after initiation of the DHT reduction.  That is why people get a shed 3-6 months in.  After that, I don't see any reason why you should still be shedding massive amounts of hair.  It makes no sense to me.  At 6 months hair shedding should be DONE, especially if on minoxidil.  If you are losing crazy amounts of hair at 9,10,11 months and observing minimal regrowth and, instead miniaturization, the drug is f*cking you.  Get off.  That being said, I am starting to lean more towards the theory that if Finasteride makes you lose MORE hair, and rapidly, then DUT will do the same if not worst.  If you simply maintain on fin, or have a little lose, I think DUT has a better chance of being more succesful. This is why I think I need off of all of these.


 But james, hairloss is caused by DHT. 
These drugs inhibit DHT.

How are they causing more loss?
Do you have a theory?

I am not making an argument.
I am asking a question.

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## jamesst11

> But james, hairloss is caused by DHT. 
> These drugs inhibit DHT.
> 
> How are they causing more loss?
> Do you have a theory?
> 
> I am not making an argument.
> I am asking a question.


 that's a good question and no one seems to have a definite answer.  One thing we know very well - it definitely does happen and it happened to me, as confirmed by my dermatologist.  He was even pretty surprised, but says it does happen to people.  I would imagine excessive hair loss by fin occurs through a feedback mechanism, as is pretty well documented with several medications.  The exact OPPOSITE of what the medicine is supposed to do occurs, because the body becomes efficient in counter acting it.  In this scenario, I know fin didn't increase DHT because of blood tests.  It did increase T, but now enough I believe to have these effects.  The only reasonable scenario I can come to is a drastic increase in DHT receptors... which, given all the scalp sensations and inflammation, is probably what is happening.  Despite the low DHT in the serum, the scalp DHT is not tested and still might be high and in the presence of abnormally high receptors, is reaking havoc.

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## mic28

Or this could simply be TE James?

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## jamesst11

Good question.  The short answer is, who really knows?  The extent of research that's been done on finasteride, a drug taken by MILLIONS, is nothing short of disappointing. Could it be TE?  Absolutely.  Look up some of the things that can cause TE and you will see that several of them cause far less physiological trauma than altering your hormones.  Then google "Propecia caused telogen effluvium" and you will get plenty of hits.  let me now reinforce the fact that I am not fear mongering here.  I still think finasteride is an awesome medication, because it has helped so many people.  We are trying to figure out our "rare" and horrible situation.  

    Like I said.  My experience on fin is so strikingly similar to my two experiences with TE that it's impossible to dismiss.  Also remember that my derm said it is charactaristic of TE.  The question for me is - if you get TE from finasteride upon initial usage, will it continue if you continue to use it?? I have not found an answer to this.  For all we know, it may not.  and AFTER the TE concludes, fin might start showing drastic benefits.  I am just too damn frustrated and depressed to find out.  RU and minox it is.

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## mic28

I know what's you mean James.  I tried to take up finasteride again a few weeks back and within a few days the 'TE' started to come on very heavy again. I wasn't willing to continue in the hope that it might improve. One thing that leads me to believe it is TE is the fact that the hairs that are diffuse lost don't seem to be regrowing and miniaturised. They just seem to be gone. Surely if this was MPB, it would take a lot longer to notice the diffuse hair and it would go through a number of cycles, rather than just a load of hair falling out in a matter of months.

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## jamesst11

> I know what's you mean James.  I tried to take up finasteride again a few weeks back and within a few days the 'TE' started to come on very heavy again. I wasn't willing to continue in the hope that it might improve. One thing that leads me to believe it is TE is the fact that the hairs that are diffuse lost don't seem to be regrowing and miniaturised. They just seem to be gone. Surely if this was MPB, it would take a lot longer to notice the diffuse hair and it would go through a number of cycles, rather than just a load of hair falling out in a matter of months.


 well, TE doesn't happen that quick - no type of shedding does, this is a misconception.  it takes 3-4 months after starting.  I am a big believer in reading symptoms.  If any treatment I am using causes my scalp to feel  inflammed (itchy, tingly, burning, creeping crawling).. then it is indeed just NOT working.  Of course you have to rule out any other factors that may be causing this first.  I had the same regiment for like 3 years before fin.  The ONLY time I felt these feelings was with severe TE, after a hair transplant.  I then felt them exactly the same on fin.  I am taking a break to see if they go away.  Been off of it for 3 days, and yes, the feeling has gone away.  hopefully it stays this way.

----------


## BaldingHelpMe

James, how is dut doing for you? Are you taking both fin and dut? Or have you gone to dut only route now?

----------


## jamesst11

> James, how is dut doing for you? Are you taking both fin and dut? Or have you gone to dut only route now?


 I quit all that sh*t cold turkey.  I am just on RU and 15% minox now with dermarolling.  I give a big F*CK YOU to finasteride, and I am assuming DUT would just do the same if not worst.

----------


## Blushark

I was on fin for 8 months and shedding did not decrease so I switched to dut .5.  I have been on dut for over a year and have seen no improvement, just slight maintain with more thinning at back of head and higher hairline at temples.

----------


## mic28

James, 

How is RU working for you now? Any updates?

----------


## jamesst11

> James, 
> 
> How is RU working for you now? Any updates?


 it's only been about a week and a half, so physiologically, it would be unreasonable to already expect a decrease in shedding... I WILL say that the dandruff I had while on fin is gone.  I don't know why fin caused that, but every single other factor, aside from adding finasteride, in my life has been a constant.  The oily hair line is definitely reduced.  The scalp inflammation (tingling, itchiness, burning, etc...) is also noticeably reduced.  While on fin, I LITERALLY lost about 30-35% density all over the scalp in a short period of time, and my hair is almost completely see through... in that regard, I am NOT expecting miracles, but will obviously welcome them.  My expectations have become very low after being repeatedly F*CKED for the last two years... If I can STOP the scalp sensations and simply maintain my damn hair I will be happy.  I know I need to post some pics.  I have taken "baseline" photos (in quotes because baseline for me was after almost 11 months of RAPID hair loss) and will post them this week.  How are you doing with RU Mic?

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

Seti is working for me

----------


## jamesst11

One other side effect of fin I neglected to mention were crazy sleep erections... I have literally never had these since I was 17-18 years old.  I would never wake up with an erection, or have one in the night.  While on fin and even now, still a week or so after quitting, I think I have an erection every second of sleeping.  Also, I have not been a "quick finisher" when sleeping with women, once again since 18-20 years old, I noticed that I can finish that a lot quicker too...Also, weight gain.. now that I am off, I hope these damn things change.  Every single thing I got from that drug is lame as f*cking hell.

----------


## mic28

Hi James, 

RU seemed to have an impact on me and reduce shedding for a couple of days about a month ago. Since then I have been back to normal with an itchy scalp and hair loss. I'm not sure why it worked for such a brief period but if I can get the lack of shedding back again then I'm sure I will start to see improvement. I am still trying to play about with concentrations and maybe this is holding me back

----------


## jamesst11

> Hi James, 
> 
> RU seemed to have an impact on me and reduce shedding for a couple of days about a month ago. Since then I have been back to normal with an itchy scalp and hair loss. I'm not sure why it worked for such a brief period but if I can get the lack of shedding back again then I'm sure I will start to see improvement. I am still trying to play about with concentrations and maybe this is holding me back


 yeah... I am just going straight up 10% with dermarolling before.  Let's pray!

----------


## pajason

Don't want to sound pessimistic but the reality is that for the vast majority of us there is no treatment that is going to grow any significant hair.  Once it's gone it's gone.  There are a few lucky ones which experience lots of regrowth but those cases are atypical.  The absolute best likely result is stopping the loss where it is, with in my opinion the most likely result being slowing the hair loss down(especially in the crown area)  I really believe most that have success with DUT or FIN are simply delaying the baldness a few years(not a bad thing at all).

----------


## blohan

> Don't want to sound pessimistic but the reality is that for the vast majority of us there is no treatment that is going to grow any significant hair.  Once it's gone it's gone.  There are a few lucky ones which experience lots of regrowth but those cases are atypical.  The absolute best likely result is stopping the loss where it is, with in my opinion the most likely result being slowing the hair loss down(especially in the crown area)  I really believe most that have success with DUT or FIN are simply delaying the baldness a few years(not a bad thing at all).


 What about the front of the head?

----------


## tedwuji

> Don't want to sound pessimistic but the reality is that for the vast majority of us there is no treatment that is going to grow any significant hair.  Once it's gone it's gone.  There are a few lucky ones which experience lots of regrowth but those cases are atypical.  The absolute best likely result is stopping the loss where it is, with in my opinion the most likely result being slowing the hair loss down(especially in the crown area)  I really believe most that have success with DUT or FIN are simply delaying the baldness a few years(not a bad thing at all).


 More than a few. Im at 6. Kobren is at like 25 years. These guys are at 10:

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/rese...ts-and-safety/

There is hope!

However, what you said about "Once it's gone, it's gone" is true. 

-Prevention is key.

----------


## dm90

Yes, all hair that is still present can be protected by 5ARI.  The more I've looked into everything the more i'm realizing why people lose hair on fin, also i'm beginning to believe its nearly impossible to have any significant hair loss on dutasteride.  With 0.5mg DUT at a steady state and adequate sulfotransferase activity theres no reason why you wouldnt gain nearly all of your hair back if you caught it at early diffuse thinning.  If you are resorting to dut and stick with it, unless you have unbelievable androgen sensitivity, there is no logical reason why you wouldnt keep your hair indefinitely.

----------


## tedwuji

> Yes, all hair that is still present can be protected by 5ARI.  The more I've looked into everything the more i'm realizing why people lose hair on fin, also i'm beginning to believe its nearly impossible to have any significant hair loss on dutasteride.  With 0.5mg DUT at a steady state and adequate sulfotransferase activity theres no reason why you wouldnt gain nearly all of your hair back if you caught it at early diffuse thinning.  If you are resorting to dut and stick with it, unless you have unbelievable androgen sensitivity, there is no logical reason why you wouldnt keep your hair indefinitely.


 But DUT messes with type1 and type2. Safety and side effect profile a little less clear for a few diff reasons.  Also i heard some guys still lose hair anyways, unfortunately.

----------


## dm90

Yes, we do not have a model in nature for a type 1 deficiency so long term side effects are unclear, i'm not encouraging anyone to take dutasteride.  Yes dutasteride inhibits both isoforms, but type 1 has no PROVEN role in hairloss, dutasterides increased effectiveness over fin is due to its higher affinity for the type II isoform.  Also there is much less standard deviation with dutasterside.  Fin has a standard deviation of 15-20% meaning some people will get a great response and inhibit up to 90% of type 2 dht in the DP, however some will only get 60% reduction.  DHTs effect on follicles is understood to be mostly an autocrine response.  This means that the follicle produces DHT and it then attaches to the AR on the cell that produced it.  Now if you are an individual who only gets 60% reduction that leaves 40% remaining to bind to the AR.  Now knowing this its actually pretty easy to see how AGA can progress even with finasteride.  Hell even the best outcome for fin leaves 10% DP DHT left.  DUT at a steady state of 0.5mg inhibits DP type 2 DHT by up to 98% with very little variation.  The poorest responder will still get at least 92-95 % reduction.  Some say that they have lost hair on DUT, but I havent seen any concrete evidence of this through photographs.  Its very hard to believe that 2% of baseline DHT can do any damage.  Glaxosmithklines phase 3 avodart trial showed only 1 patient have a slight decrease in hair after six month, which resulted in a 99% efficiency rate.  Also theres no way of knowing if that one patient actually experienced a progression of AGA or just his follicles transitioning into the telogen phase.  AGA is androgen drive and if you remove the androgen stimulus your retard the condition.

----------


## tedwuji

> Yes, we do not have a model in nature for a type 1 deficiency so long term side effects are unclear, i'm not encouraging anyone to take dutasteride.  Yes dutasteride inhibits both isoforms, but type 1 has no PROVEN role in hairloss, dutasterides increased effectiveness over fin is due to its higher affinity for the type II isoform.  Also there is much less standard deviation with dutasterside.  Fin has a standard deviation of 15-20% meaning some people will get a great response and inhibit up to 90% of type 2 dht in the DP, however some will only get 60% reduction.  DHTs effect on follicles is understood to be mostly an autocrine response.  This means that the follicle produces DHT and it then attaches to the AR on the cell that produced it.  Now if you are an individual who only gets 60% reduction that leaves 40% remaining to bind to the AR.  Now knowing this its actually pretty easy to see how AGA can progress even with finasteride.  Hell even the best outcome for fin leaves 10% DP DHT left.  DUT at a steady state of 0.5mg inhibits DP type 2 DHT by up to 98% with very little variation.  The poorest responder will still get at least 92-95 % reduction.  Some say that they have lost hair on DUT, but I havent seen any concrete evidence of this through photographs.  Its very hard to believe that 2% of baseline DHT can do any damage.  Glaxosmithklines phase 3 avodart trial showed only 1 patient have a slight decrease in hair after six month, which resulted in a 99% efficiency rate.  Also theres no way of knowing if that one patient actually experienced a progression of AGA or just his follicles transitioning into the telogen phase.  AGA is androgen drive and if you remove the androgen stimulus your retard the condition.


 Serum dht and scalp dht reduction are two separate animals and i am well versed in this data as well. You are refencing serum DHT levels when you quote 98% redux

May also be worth noting that type1 permeates the blood brain barrier while type 2 does not as a side note.

----------


## dm90

They're different animals, but completely pointless distinctions.  They are also are irrelevant to fin/dut effectives in treating hairloss.  The 98% figure i stated was dermal papilla type 2 dht, which as far as we know is the only relevant DHT with regards to hairloss, remember its an autocrine response not paracrine.  Serum DHT is just the DHT concentration in the entire body, which includes scalp DHT.  Yes most are well versed in the reduction percent curve of finasteride, approx 70% serum, and dutasteride approx 90%.  But You have to understand what these numbers mean.  Why can serum dht be reduced by 90% while scalp dht is only reduced by 50%?  Because DHT isnt evenly concentrated throughout the body.  Type 2 is heavily concentrated in the prostate and dermal papilla while type 1 is present in the sebaceous glands and brain.  Neither have any significant concentration in the skeletal muscle.  Sebaceous glands are in the scalp and therefore there is a significant concentration of the type 1 isoform.  Finasteride has no affinity for this isoform and dutasteride, while it does reduce it, doesnt have nearly as strong of an affinity for it as it does for the type 2.  Secondly and the most important point is the ratio of type 1 to type 2 in the body.  The majority of DHT in the body is converted from the type 2 isoenzyme.  I approximately 70-80% of total dht actually.  Firstly FIN reduces total serum dht by 70%.  Secondly FIN has no affinity for the type 1 isoenzyme, therefore that 70% reduction is completely type 2.  Well 70 is about 90% of 80.  So given the perfect response finasteride reduces type 2 dht by 90%.  This means there is only 10% DHT left in the dermal papilla, the only important DHT.  DUT has 3x affinity for the type 2 isoenzyme over finasteride, this means significantly more type 2 is reduced leaving next to no traces of the hormone in the follicle.  Lastly, yes type 1 is present in the brain tissue, and dutasteride can pass the blood brain barrier.  That isnt really relevant to the point im making.

----------


## dm90

Just a side note.  Theres alot of fear mongering about Fin and DUT on here, yet theres a a sizable group of forum users interested in JAK inhibitors.  That is pure insanity to me.

----------


## JohnMPB

I've heard this theory thrown around recently on various forums and Dr. Proctor, who is very well versed in hair loss agrees that it's quite a possibility...

It's likely fin and dut perform almost the same over the long term in regards to mpb. The idea is there is only type 2 5ar in the dermal papilla which Finasteride is a specific inhibitor. Dut inhibits both forms but type 1 is located in other tissues such as the sebaceous gland. So far there are mainly only 6 month studies showing dut outperforms fin in that timeframe but there are no 1+ year studies to show whether or not dut just works faster.

As we see from other studies, fin continues to increase hair counts beyond 1 year. So the question is does dut really outperform fin in regards to hair counts or just work faster over the short term?

Anti androgens can only get you so far with mpb. It's somewhat rare to see people regrow hair just on fin or dut. Even castrates don't regrow much but can halt their mpb. Hair loss is very complex and from my minimal understanding just chasing the idea that decreasing androgens as much as you can will have diminishing returns IMO, fwiw, just sayin.

----------


## dm90

I believe it all goes back to the original pseudoherms discovery.  Type 2 deficiency results in no AGA, therefore one can infer that there is no type 1 in the DP.  I agree that if a person has a good response to fin, maximum dht reduction of 90%, DUT wont outperform fin by much of any degree.  However, remember that 10% of people who take fin experience a progression of AGA over 5 years.  I believe its because these are the individuals that are on the left side of the DHT reduction bell curve.  I see alot of posters say that if fin doesnt work dut wont really either, but to me that just cant be the case.  This is because DUT pretty much eliminates all type 2 in the DP for everyone.  Remember the standard deviation is so small compared to fin.  In the long run i'd say DUT will produce better results everytime compared to fin.  Yes hairloss is a complex disregulation of several pathways that leads to hair miniaturization, but remember its all started by the initial androgen stimulation.  Understanding the pharmacology of the two drugs also supports that DUT is superior at maitenance.  FIN reduces DHT to its maximum effectiveness very rapidly, with 24 hours of its first dose.  However fin has a halflife of 8 hours and DHT can fluctuate even if you take it daily.  DUT takes a long time to reach a steady state, but once it does youre DHT levels will pretty much remain at their lowest levels.  However reaching a steady state on DUT takes 3 months of 0.5 mg daily.  Now i have read studies that there are people with genotypes that respond better to fin, however this is pretty rare to my understanding.  I'm not saying anyone should jump on DUT, i'm merely saying that if you understand the basic facts about AGA and the pharmacology of DUT its not a ridiculous statement to say that AGA cant progress on DUT.  Regrowth is another story, I have read numerous studies on the mechanism of action for minoxidil and basically minoxidil works be forcing some of the pathways disregulation by DHT back into regulation.  Really its pretty phenominal all the things minoxidil does, its just that damn sulfotransferase enzyme.  If we all had it aga would be essentially cured for many sufferers.

----------


## JohnMPB

> I believe it all goes back to the original pseudoherms discovery.  Type 2 deficiency results in no AGA, therefore one can infer that there is no type 1 in the DP.  I agree that if a person has a good response to fin, maximum dht reduction of 90%, DUT wont outperform fin by much of any degree.  However, remember that 10% of people who take fin experience a progression of AGA over 5 years.  I believe its because these are the individuals that are on the left side of the DHT reduction bell curve.  I see alot of posters say that if fin doesnt work dut wont really either, but to me that just cant be the case.  This is because DUT pretty much eliminates all type 2 in the DP for everyone.  Remember the standard deviation is so small compared to fin.  In the long run i'd say DUT will produce better results everytime compared to fin.  Yes hairloss is a complex disregulation of several pathways that leads to hair miniaturization, but remember its all started by the initial androgen stimulation.  Understanding the pharmacology of the two drugs also supports that DUT is superior at maitenance.  FIN reduces DHT to its maximum effectiveness very rapidly, with 24 hours of its first dose.  However fin has a halflife of 8 hours and DHT can fluctuate even if you take it daily.  DUT takes a long time to reach a steady state, but once it does youre DHT levels will pretty much remain at their lowest levels.  However reaching a steady state on DUT takes 3 months of 0.5 mg daily.  Now i have read studies that there are people with genotypes that respond better to fin, however this is pretty rare to my understanding.  I'm not saying anyone should jump on DUT, i'm merely saying that if you understand the basic facts about AGA and the pharmacology of DUT its not a ridiculous statement to say that AGA cant progress on DUT.  Regrowth is another story, I have read numerous studies on the mechanism of action for minoxidil and basically minoxidil works be forcing some of the pathways disregulation by DHT back into regulation.  Really its pretty phenominal all the things minoxidil does, its just that damn sulfotransferase enzyme.  If we all had it aga would be essentially cured for many sufferers.


 You make some great points. The fluctuation of DHT levels is true, but nobody knows what's going on within the DP which is really what matters. It's easy to get caught up in the DHT reduction numbers but one thing that Dr. Proctor brought up was that with greater DHT reduction, there is a higher chance of reflex hyperandrogenicity- which is potentially very bad for hair. I've seen posts online of people complaining of huge sheds or losing hairline once switching over to dut and this reflex hyperandrogenicity could explain that. His point was that most people with prostate cancer (as we know these drugs were created to address prostate issues) very strong antiandrogens like flutamide are not enough as they too cause reflex h so these patients simultaneously get castrated as well during their treatments. If we could get 1 year and beyond hair count numbers like we have for fin, this would be all we need.

Makes you wonder....was Avodart pulled because it didn't work as well as fin or even possibly _worse_ over the long term? It's also hard for me to believe the sides for Avodart are less than propecia just due to the fact that serum DHT levels are decreased so much by Avodart and type 1 5ar is reduced by 50%.

----------


## dm90

Damn everytime i type my long message in response to this my laptop freezes >.>.  Anyway in response to the upregulation of the AR from androgen deprivation i found this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4069023/.  It examines the AR concentratiosn in the stromal and epithelia cells of men reporting persistent sexual side effects from fin.  Consensus is yes upregulation does occur in both the stromal and epithelial tissues.  However it is much greater in the stromal, prostatic cells.  Theres a 2 fold increase in the prostatic cells and roughly only a 20% increase in the epithelial tissue.  Good news for our hair, not so good for our prostates.  This upregulation in the epithelial tissue, if it reigns true for the greater population (this was a small study), would not offset the DHT reduction of fin and definitely not for DUT.  Interestingly enough nerve density and structure remained unchanged.  Ive never been worried about PFS, but upregulated expression in stromal tissue,leading to hyperplasia, seemed a very real and believable concern to me.  I will continue to take these medications because my hair is just that important to me, yeah it may be reckless but its my body, but I mean this isnt something that should be ignored

----------


## BaldingHelpMe

> DUT takes a long time to reach a steady state, but once it does youre DHT levels will pretty much remain at their lowest levels.


 It takes three months for dut to get to your body?? Says who? Where did you get this info? Also, it doesn't make sense. From the leaflet, it says the medicine will get to your bloodstream in a few hours after taking it.

----------


## dm90

I said it takes three months to reach a "steady state".  A steady state is a term used in pharmacokinetics where the drug is ingested at the same rate it is removed, this means the concentration remains steady in your blood.  This is why people talk about "loading doses" with avodart.

----------


## tedwuji

> I said it takes three months to reach a "steady state".  A steady state is a term used in pharmacokinetics where the drug is ingested at the same rate it is removed, this means the concentration remains steady in your blood.  This is why people talk about "loading doses" with avodart.


 It crosses blood brain barrier which is not relevant to an obession with maximizing the reduction of androgens but castration side-effect is also irrelevant under parallel logic.

----------


## tedwuji

> They're different animals, but completely pointless distinctions.  They are also are irrelevant to fin/dut effectives in treating hairloss.  The 98% figure i stated was dermal papilla type 2 dht, which as far as we know is the only relevant DHT with regards to hairloss, remember its an autocrine response not paracrine.  Serum DHT is just the DHT concentration in the entire body, which includes scalp DHT.  Yes most are well versed in the reduction percent curve of finasteride, approx 70% serum, and dutasteride approx 90%.  But You have to understand what these numbers mean.  Why can serum dht be reduced by 90% while scalp dht is only reduced by 50%?  Because DHT isnt evenly concentrated throughout the body.  Type 2 is heavily concentrated in the prostate and dermal papilla while type 1 is present in the sebaceous glands and brain.  Neither have any significant concentration in the skeletal muscle.  Sebaceous glands are in the scalp and therefore there is a significant concentration of the type 1 isoform.  Finasteride has no affinity for this isoform and dutasteride, while it does reduce it, doesnt have nearly as strong of an affinity for it as it does for the type 2.  Secondly and the most important point is the ratio of type 1 to type 2 in the body.  The majority of DHT in the body is converted from the type 2 isoenzyme.  I approximately 70-80% of total dht actually.  Firstly FIN reduces total serum dht by 70%.  Secondly FIN has no affinity for the type 1 isoenzyme, therefore that 70% reduction is completely type 2.  Well 70 is about 90% of 80.  So given the perfect response finasteride reduces type 2 dht by 90%.  This means there is only 10% DHT left in the dermal papilla, the only important DHT.  DUT has 3x affinity for the type 2 isoenzyme over finasteride, this means significantly more type 2 is reduced leaving next to no traces of the hormone in the follicle.  Lastly, yes type 1 is present in the brain tissue, and dutasteride can pass the blood brain barrier.  That isnt really relevant to the point im making.


 It crosses blood brain barrier which is not relevant to an obession with maximizing the reduction of androgens but castration side-effect is also irrelevant under parallel logic.

----------


## dm90

> It crosses blood brain barrier which is not relevant to an obession with maximizing the reduction of androgens but castration side-effect is also irrelevant under parallel logic.


 I don't quite understand the statement here.  I wasn't arguing the safety long term safety of dutasteride, nor was I advocating its use.  I was simply comparing the pharmokinetics of the drug to finasteride and offering an explanation as to why dut will work when finasteride fails.  As for the blood brain barrier, several medications cross it, finasteride does however the type 2 enzyme doesnt appear to be present in brain tissue.  As for the reduction statement I made that seemed to provide some confusion here is a study to confirm what I have said.  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...06.00053.x/pdf

"However, finasteride decreases prostatic DHT concentrations
(where the Type II enzyme predominates) by as much as 90%"  

However there is a standard deviation by about 20% leaving some to only have around a 60% reduction in type 2.  Dutasteride has 3x the affinity for the type II isoform and a much lower SD.  The original question for this thread is asking if DUT will succeed when fin has failed, and the answer to that question is it more than likely will.  

I'm not here to argue the safety profile of a drug or persuade someone to take anything.  Sertraline crosses the blood brain barrier, it has to in order to work, and its rate of sexual side effects are much higher than and A5RI, some studies have shown the rates are as high as 30-40%.  Also persistent sexual dysfunction is well documented for this medication, however the same paranoia doesnt seem to surround SSRI's possibly because depression, ocd, and anxiety are taken much more seriously while hairloss is considered an issue of vanity.  I'm not demonizing SSRI's either, I believe they help alot of people who desperately need it.  Some are completely emotionally crippled by hairloss and finasteride doesnt work for everyone.  People need an objective understanding of available treatments so they can decide for themselves what course of action to take.  In closing ill reiterate once more that if finasteride isnt stopping your hairloss its most likely due to the drug not reducing adequate type 2 DHT, which dutasteride will in most cases remedy this.

----------


## BaldingHelpMe

> With 0.5mg DUT at a steady state and adequate sulfotransferase activity theres no reason why you wouldnt gain nearly all of your hair back


 What is sulfotransferase? And how do I ensure there is enough sulfotransferase activity? I'm also taking dut 0.5mg daily, plus Omega-3 fish oil, vitamin B complex, and vitamin C.

----------


## dm90

> What is sulfotransferase? And how do I ensure there is enough sulfotransferase activity? I'm also taking dut 0.5mg daily, plus Omega-3 fish oil, vitamin B complex, and vitamin C.


 It's the enzyme that converts minoxidl into it's active form, minoxidil sulfate.  A lot of people lack adequate amounts of the enzyme which is why for some minoxidil grows a lot of hair back while for others it does nothing.  There are a few studies that demonstrate hydrocortisone increasing phenol sulfotransferase activity by 3-5 times.

----------


## BaldingHelpMe

> It's the enzyme that converts minoxidl into it's active form, minoxidil sulfate.  A lot of people lack adequate amounts of the enzyme which is why for some minoxidil grows a lot of hair back while for others it does nothing.  There are a few studies that demonstrate hydrocortisone increasing phenol sulfotransferase activity by 3-5 times.


 Is this an enzyme that our body naturally have or is it from Minoxidil? I don't like putting topical stuff on my hair, so minoxidil is not an option for me. 

How do I ensure I have enough of these enzymes if I don't use minoxidil?

----------


## dm90

> Is this an enzyme that our body naturally have or is it from Minoxidil? I don't like putting topical stuff on my hair, so minoxidil is not an option for me. 
> 
> How do I ensure I have enough of these enzymes if I don't use minoxidil?


 My apologies I wasn't too clear when I made that statement, the enzyme I mentioned is only relevant, as far as i know, to minoxidil when it comes to hairloss.  Minoxidil sulfate is the active form of minoxidil, it is what causes regrowth.  If you lack this enzyme minoxidil wont work.  However, if you have the enzyme minoxidil can potentially work wonders for your hair.  Essentially what I was saying was that If you are one of the lucky responders to minoxidil you can pair it with avodart and potentailly regrowth all of your hair if it was only recently lost.  There are very few accounts of this happening but it does show that minoxidil can have a powerful effect.  Im sorry for the confusion, many feel that minxodil isnt worth the trouble because of the uncertainty.  Perhaps one day applied biology, the company developing the minoxidl response test, will release a product, until then all you can do is try the medication out.

----------


## BaldingHelpMe

> If you lack this enzyme minoxidil wont work.  However, if you have the enzyme


 So this is an enzyme our body naturally have? I can't apply minoxidl everyday, so I'm not starting it. So without minoxidl, how do i make sure I have enough of these enzyme?

----------


## Sanchez123

> Yeah bro, fin in my eyes is a far worse drug.. Don't ask me why, but I just feel better on dutasteride. No regrowth really.. Actually, the back of my scalp started getting thin and that filled in it seems in just four months. Caught that one early though lol. My temples are slowly receding, but the short minaturized hairs actually are growing out longer on dutasteride.
> 
> Dutasteride powder is basically just dutasteride in powder form lol. I bought 10 grams of it so I'll literally never run out. I still take avodart, but like I said if I need to up my dose, it won't break my wallet.
> 
> Before I got on dut though I took a 2 month break from AA's so idk if that somehow let me reset in a way from the bad effects of fin? Anyway, dut may be helping and it takes a lot for me to say that. Going to Wait til 6 month mark to Reevaluate if I'm doing better. 
> 
> Are you on a legit generic? Give it like two weeks of ED usage and you should feel if your responding at all. You really won't see results til 6-12 months just like fin. I started getting less of an itch this month actually so it def takes time.


 How is your situation now ziggy?

----------


## blohan

> How is your situation now ziggy?


 Has that user had any erection problems?

----------


## cardib

your libido will go to shit with dut. kiss staying hard goodbye

----------


## Sanchez123

Anybody got an update?

----------


## noobo

Could someone please message me who knows how I could get in on a dut groupbuy?

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## Joaoorlando09

I used finasteride for a 3 months but I stopped the treatment. I did not have significant results in this period. I will use it for a longer time.

----------------------------
João Orlando
Maceió-AL, BR
www.welbox.com.br

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## bba

9 months on finasteride isn't doing a thing for me, actually my hair loss has never been so bad as in the 9 last months and I'm now a diffuse nw6/7, Before I started i was getting close to a diffuse nw5 and was still able to hide most of the thinning. Now I must have regrowth or I might as well lose the rest. 
I don't think that even Dut is worth trying now.
I'm going insane.

----------


## bba

9 months on finasteride isn't doing a thing for me, actually my hair loss has never been so bad as in the 9 last months and I'm now a diffuse nw6/7, Before I started i was getting close to a diffuse nw5 and was still able to hide most of the thinning. Now I must have regrowth or I might as well lose the rest. 
I don't think that even Dut is worth trying now.
I'm going insane.

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## blohan

> 9 months on finasteride isn't doing a thing for me, actually my hair loss has never been so bad as in the 9 last months and I'm now a diffuse nw6/7, Before I started i was getting close to a diffuse nw5 and was still able to hide most of the thinning. Now I must have regrowth or I might as well lose the rest. 
> I don't think that even Dut is worth trying now.
> I'm going insane.


 what about sexual dysfunction?

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## blohan

> your libido will go to shit with dut. kiss staying hard goodbye


 absolutely, and I'm going through it now, and it doesn't go away.

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## bba

> what about sexual dysfunction?


 Haven't felt anything different with Fin, only more hair loss for some reason. Can't get Dut here. so I don't have to think about that, but I doubt it would have helped much.

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## Soundgrower

Can anyone tell me where I can get generic finasteride at a reasonable price as Med Pacific (my usual supplier) now do not take credit cards. I am in the UK.

Thanks

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## Soundgrower

Anyone ?

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## Soundgrower

No help here then

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## GroughBack

Any update James?

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## GroughBack

.

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## markusbdc

> 9 months on finasteride isn't doing a thing for me, actually my hair loss has never been so bad as in the 9 last months and I'm now a diffuse nw6/7, Before I started i was getting close to a diffuse nw5 and was still able to hide most of the thinning. Now I must have regrowth or I might as well lose the rest. 
> I don't think that even Dut is worth trying now.
> I'm going insane.


 How is it going now...I know exactly what you mean by going insane....Were you able to do anything ?  I started Dutasteride and Ru58441 mixed with Minox and managed to stop my insanity inducing shed which if nothing else has restored my sanity for the time being...The Dut has whacked my sex drive though but I care less about that than being a baldie...How crazy is that?  Guess only us balding dudes can relate to that one...anyway how are you doing now?..

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## markusbdc

> yeah... I am just going straight up 10% with dermarolling before.  Let's pray!


 Hey James...So how did it go with the straight up dermarolling experiment?  Do you feel that you had any success using this method..?  Thanks in advance....Mark

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## ravinderpalsingh

So try finasteride. Finasteride is the better medicine for hair loss.

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## valesolove

I had heard of Propecia pills for hair loss but had never tried them until I saw that I was losing too much hair. I spent several months following the treatment and quickly saw the results I wanted: strong hair and less hair loss - https://onlinecheappills.com/catalog...s/Propecia.htm I highly recommend Propecia.

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