# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Histogen Update - Spencer Kobren Speaks With Dr. Craig L. Ziering

## tbtadmin



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## fontanajul

What an excellent interview! Thank you so much for giving me some hope. I have a few questions that maybe someone could address? It might be a little early to ask these things, but I figured I'd ask anyway. So basically, I'm curious about...

1. Has there been an estimated cost for HSC injections? 
2. Is there any way to see photo results from the first trial?

Thanks in advance,
Max

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## RichardDawkins

Nice interview, i really expected the worst things but man, i got the strange feeling i know which Guys from the forum here are ment to be that little bit of pushy :-)

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## PayDay

Great interview Spencer! Let me be the first to agree with Dr. Ziering  that if it werent for you none of this information would be available to us. Its because of these interviews and everything else you give us that everyone is talking about this stuff all over the internet an maybe some of the doctors are working even harder to solve this thing. You are the man! I'm stoked about this!

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## blowmeup

Thanks for the interview Spencer, it was very informative. Im a little disappointed to hear that Dr. Ziring does not seem sure about the timeline, but Im very happy that everything appears to be moving in a positive direction.  Will Dr. Ziering be answering questions on the forum? I wanted to know if having a hair transplant now will interfere with having Histogen injections in the future?

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## gmonasco

I found the interview disappointingly vague.  Lots of happy talk, but precious little detail about what, if anything, they've found that Histogen can actually do in the trials conducted so far.

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## blowmeup

Im pretty sure that was all covered in this interview.

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1560

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## RichardDawkins

I have to agree...... Didnt you listen to the interview  :Confused:

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## reset

Thanks for the interview Spencer. It`s great we`re able to hear directly from the guys in the field. I don`t know if any one at Histogen is taking taking questions now, but I`ve heard about `Pan-Asian` trials but aside from Singapore I haven`t heard of any other countries in Asia taking part in the trials. Which, if any, other countries are going to take part in the trials? Thanks.

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## gmonasco

> Didnt you listen to the interview


 Yes, I did.  Didn't you read my post?  I could hardly have said I found it lacking in detail if I hadn't listened to it.

As I said, there was lots of happy noise about what Histogen might do, but precious little solid info about what it has actually proved to do so far.

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## RichardDawkins

But right now there isnt much else to say they did test if HSC could be dangerous, and it isnt.

They saw hair still be there after two years and now they gonna for different approches after 6 weeks etc which is exactly according to plan.

I dont think that it was all happy talk, it was a realistic observation from someone at the source.

The most important thing is, its safe AND the hair stays, who knows what can be achieved with higher injections here and there. At least from the data it could hairtransplants make more sufficient with less grafts to plant.

Also the idea about Histogen in the first round to stop hairloss and grow back special parts and then go for Acell orientated hair transplant is pretty damn good.

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## gmonasco

> But right now there isnt much else to say


 My point exactly.  No substantive information is not exactly something to be optimistic about.




> it was a realistic observation from someone at the source


 But someone who also has a vested interest in making things seem as positive as possible.




> The most important thing is, its safe AND the hair stays


 Neither of those factors has been established yet.

First of all, early stage clinical trials seek to determine whether a particular treatment manifests any immediately obvious deleterious effects serious enough to warrant discontinuation of the trials.  If if doesn't, then the trials can proceed, but that milestone is very far from demonstrating that a treatment is "safe" in an overall sense.  Safety is something which can only be determined with much wider trials, a much larger user base, and the passage of time (as numerous recalls of previously approved drugs have demonstrated).

Second, any trial of a treatment for regrowing hair would realistically have run at least two years (and possibly longer) just to determine whether the new hairs produced by the treatment survive an anagen/telogen cycle.  Even then, you don't know for sure -- a newly produced hair might survive the first cycle, but that's no guarantee it won't, say, (akin to miniaturization) grow progressively weaker and fail to survive subsequent cycles.  What the long term benefits or effects will be are something that can only be determined in the long term, and obviously none of us here is going to be able to wait a couple of lifetimes to verrify how things pan out.

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## CVAZBAR

> My point exactly.  No substantive information is not exactly something to be optimistic about.
> 
> 
> 
> But someone who also has a vested interest in making things seem as positive as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of those factors has been established yet.
> ...


 Well if you already knew all the answers, why are you disappointed? I doubt you will have to wait a LIFETIME homie so don't worry about that ha. So what if the hair wont survive the cycle? If it grew it in the first place, then get another injection. I think its pretty obvious that we still don't know shit about it but i do know we wont have to wait a couple of lifetimes to find out. We will know soon enough.

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## CVAZBAR

> Right now Singapore but possibly Korea as well.


 I know you spoke about the 2 year trials so far and how hairs were still present after that time. If histogen does not do much as far as growth for some, will it at least guarantee no further hair loss? Did you notice this in pre trials?

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## gmonasco

> Well if you already knew all the answers, why are you disappointed? I doubt you will have to wait a LIFETIME homie so don't worry about that ha. So what if the hair wont survive the cycle? If it grew it in the first place, then get another injection. I think its pretty obvious that we still don't know shit about it but i do know we wont have to wait a couple of lifetimes to find out. We will know soon enough.


 You might find this system works best if you actually take the time to read and comprehend material prior to responding to it.

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## abb83

everything sounds interesting but if 2013-2014 wasnt mentioned as potential dates this is very frustrating :s

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## fontanajul

Thanks Dr. Ziering for posting replies to all our questions. That's pretty awesome of you. I'm really looking forward to hearing and seeing more from histogen!

-Max

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## blowmeup

Thanks for answering my question Dr. Ziering, this is by far the best and most informative hair forum on the internet!!! When I read some of the other ones it all posts based on speculation from people who really have no clue whats going on.

One more thing doctor if you dont mind, do you think a person whos approaching a Norwood 5 or 6 can be helped with Histogen?

Thank you :Smile:

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## Westonci

Hello Dr. Ziering.

I got an email from gail naugton last month saying *"We are starting phase 1/2 in Singapore before the end of May and hope to have phase 3 pan-Asian data by Sept 2012 for an NDA submission and 2013 approval. (hopefull Q2 2013)."*

Is it possible that the NDA submissions could be shortened? Does it have to be 6-12 months long?

Is it possible to lobby the Singapore Health Authority to shorten it?

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## Westonci

Are the new hairs from the HSC injections colored hair, for a person with greying hair?

For example if a person has white hair (ie anderson cooper) will the new grown hairs from HSC injections be white or black?

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## CVAZBAR

> You might find this system works best if you actually take the time to read and comprehend material prior to responding to it.


 Trust me,  Iv'e read the material. What you wrote has been said a thousand times. You don't need to repeat it over and over. You want all the answers but the studies are just starting. Relax

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## Westonci

Thank you for your response Dr. Ziering.

I have a theoretical question. Lets just say a random billionaire from the middle east donated $250 million to Histogen.

Would the time line then still be 2013-2014 for pan asia approval?

Or would the extra funds mean that Histogen could exponentially speed up clinical trails?

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## gmonasco

> Trust me,  Iv'e read the material.


 Once again, you've demonstrated that you haven't bothered actually reading what you're responding to.

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## Supernova

Hurray for another scam! That guy's talking out his ass. Histogen is just another product that's going to cost a good amount of money, and that company is going to make so much money off of false hopes. So many people are going to want it, and the day it comes out people are going to be in line for it. The company will make bank, hair loss sufferers will have hope for a week and be down another $50-$100 each. Another successful scam. He made no *coherent* statements that Histogen actually gives you *noticeable* (take note of those words) hair growth. Does it grow the hair I'm paying them money for? I'll believe it when I see it. And I'm not talking about clinical trials or "before and after" pictures from the company, no, those are *always* fixed. I'm not opening my wallet for these guys to just steal money out of it.

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## Gubter_87

> Hurray for another scam! That guy's talking out his ass. Histogen is just another product that's going to cost a good amount of money, and that company is going to make so much money off of false hopes. So many people are going to want it, and the day it comes out people are going to be in line for it. The company will make bank, hair loss sufferers will have hope for a week and be down another $50-$100 each. Another successful scam. He made no *coherent* statements that Histogen actually gives you *noticeable* (take note of those words) hair growth. Does it grow the hair I'm paying them money for? I'll believe it when I see it. And I'm not talking about clinical trials or "before and after" pictures from the company, no, those are *always* fixed. I'm not opening my wallet for these guys to just steal money out of it.


 You're forgetting that if this makes it through trials it will be the third treatment ever approved by the FDA for treatment of hair loss.
The general "scam" product that you are talking about does not go through the rigorous testing for efficiacy and safety that is mandatory when seeking approval for a potential medical treatment.

You can't compare this to the other scam products out there - if this makes it through the trials it will definately be beneficial!

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## Westonci

> Hurray for another scam! That guy's talking out his ass. Histogen is just another product that's going to cost a good amount of money, and that company is going to make so much money off of false hopes. So many people are going to want it, and the day it comes out people are going to be in line for it. The company will make bank, hair loss sufferers will have hope for a week and be down another $50-$100 each. Another successful scam. He made no *coherent* statements that Histogen actually gives you *noticeable* (take note of those words) hair growth. Does it grow the hair I'm paying them money for? I'll believe it when I see it. And I'm not talking about clinical trials or "before and after" pictures from the company, no, those are *always* fixed. I'm not opening my wallet for these guys to just steal money out of it.


 Your paranoid SUPERNOVA, Histogen is funded by Venture investors, and these people want to see results before they give histogen millions of dollars. Im sure that histogen has shown these people more than enough proof that HSC works.

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## CVAZBAR

> Once again, you've demonstrated that you haven't bothered actually reading what you're responding to.


 Ok let me ask you a question. Im guessing you've followed the past Histogen interviews and are aware that the phase 1 and 2 trials are just starting. Im sure you know they already reported results from the pre trials, in which you can see pictures they posted. Knowing all this, what made you so disappointed about this last interview? What were you expecting to hear?

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## UK_

I remember when Intercytex came out claiming their DP cells induced "significant hair growth" in 4 out of 5 patients, but they totally fell on their Phase II trials.  I am thus highly anticipating the results of Histogen's Phase II, the primary issue here is how their research affirms the findings made earlier this year regarding the inactive (but present) stem cells in bald scalps.

Also, if you look at their findings, the increases in terms of percentage gain (e.g. terminal hairs) are similar according to the dose of HSC that was applied, this is also promising; showing that there is an element of 'order' to the procedure and results that arrive from it.

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## reset

> Right now Singapore but possibly Korea as well.


 Thanks for answering my question. Don`t mind the negative posts. A lot of anger/frustration over losing hair sometimes translates to negative posts. I hope you`ll be able to keep us apprised of new developments.

On a side note, Singapore has transformed itself as the leading bio-tech hub in Asia and among the top hubs across the entire globe. Seems no coincidence Histogen chose Singapore as a place to conduct trials. Some links for anyone that`s interested.

http://www.massdevice.com/blogs/nik-...o-science-hubs

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...106583/1/.html

http://www.outsourcing-pharma.com/Cl...linical-trials

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## blowmeup

Great post reset! Were all bitter about losing our hair, but I could never understand why some guys try to take it out on these forums. It only detracts from the point and its obnoxious. :Mad:

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## Supernova

> You're forgetting that if this makes it through trials it will be the third treatment ever approved by the FDA for treatment of hair loss.
> The general "scam" product that you are talking about does not go through the rigorous testing for efficiacy and safety that is mandatory when seeking approval for a potential medical treatment.
> 
> You can't compare this to the other scam products out there - if this makes it through the trials it will definately be beneficial!


 Oh yeah? Well then how about Rogaine? That's "FDA Approved" and it's a scam. Yes I know, there a claims and reports of people re-growing hair from the use of Rogaine, but are you getting the hair you're paying for? Seriously, people spend over $500 a year on something that only gives them little to no more hair? I've never seen a real miracle story with Rogaine. But as far as Histogen goes, I don't know.. I think they only treatment for Male Pattern Baldness that will do anyone any good will be the cure. Meaning, when scientists find a way to awaken the stem cells in the scalp to re-grow follicles into new hairs. Histogen sounds like it's just going to be another stimulation, like the equivalent to taking certain multi-vitamins to promote hair-growth.

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## UK_

> Oh yeah? Well then how about Rogaine? That's "FDA Approved" and it's a scam. Yes I know, there a claims and reports of people re-growing hair from the use of Rogaine, but are you getting the hair you're paying for? Seriously, people spend over $500 a year on something that only gives them little to no more hair? I've never seen a real miracle story with Rogaine. But as far as Histogen goes, I don't know.. I think they only treatment for Male Pattern Baldness that will do anyone any good will be the cure. Meaning, when scientists find a way to awaken the stem cells in the scalp to re-grow follicles into new hairs. Histogen sounds like it's just going to be another stimulation, like the equivalent to taking certain multi-vitamins to promote hair-growth.


 Histogen has promising Phase I results and an exciting factor was when Dr Ziering stated that the hair maintained/continued to grow even after a 2 year follow-up.  This was after one injection of a very small amount of the HSC; the theory stacks up - they mimic what occurs during embryogenesis, we know wnt proteins are instrumental in signalling stem cells to perform certain actions.

A scam is a type of deception, how many times have you heard companies tell you that Rogaine (1) may not work for all people (2) you will lose whatever you gain/keep after stopping usage etc - just because the drug is not as effective does not make it a scam.  I highly anticipate Phase II results, this year will be make or break, literally.

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## RichardDawkins

Let me put it this way Supernova.

If Histogen is a scam (i really doubt it because they also have a lot of other succesfull things in their portfolio), a scam which stops your hairloss and also gains regrow on every NW scale in a significant way, like they show it.

Well then iam very glad to fall for this scam. I really think you mistake Minoxil with cell treatment here.

HSC works in another way then Minox, i think that even if Histogen is not permanently and you have to get another injection every 5 years or so, with further injections will come more of your hairs back.

As Dr Ziering stated here, when some user asked a really good question about White and grey hair turn back to normal. You can see that HSC will turn back the clock for hairloss. Just accumulate how long (in years) it took for some people to turn their hair from lets say black to grey.

And i think as a rule of thumb you can say that one round of injection will buy you exactly this time again.

But maybe iam wrong and HSC is permanent. You know you can turn it as you will, a combination of lets say Acell/Plucking or Acell/FUE multiplication and Histogen is

way way way better then using Minox and Propecia. OK not only way better, its the future.

And yes its no coincident that they do their trials in asia. In fact a lot of other biotech companys do this as well.

And iam really glad that in asian countrys its not like in our western cultures, i mean right now people are discussing about stem cells and stuff, which is stupid.

I believe that every possible benefit in science should be used. Its like in this one episode of family guy. Where Peter got a stroke and then he went to a lab which said something like " Stem Cell Research" and he comes out of it normal and says something like " Wow and they really abandon this"

I know not every stem cell is a stem cell but the essence here should be clear.

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## matlondon

time to start saving, i know others that would like to grow hair but refuse to do ht. btw when would we see a UK or pan european release.

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## RichardDawkins

i agree time to start saving and do some workout stuff

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## UK_

> time to start saving, i know others that would like to grow hair but refuse to do ht. btw when would we see a UK or pan european release.


 My personal 'opinion' here is that the UK will lag behind the States, as has been the general trend for several decades now, I dont really mean to have a dig at British companies but lets be honest - if it wasn't for the likes of Aderans, Follica and Histogen - what else would we have?  Intercytex? lol.

Here are the guys who sent shares rocking to $100 each after proclaiming their DP cells induced significant growth in 4 out of 5 patients; and in second clinical trials totally blew it landing investors in deep...

This is why I cannot place enough emphasis of the coming 12 months regarding Histogens Phase II, if  they can pull off what they did in Phase I again - it will be literally *revolutionary*.

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## CVAZBAR

> My personal 'opinion' here is that the UK will lag behind the States, as has been the general trend for several decades now, I dont really mean to have a dig at British companies but lets be honest - if it wasn't for the likes of Aderans, Follica and Histogen - what else would we have?  Intercytex? lol.
> 
> Here are the guys who sent shares rocking to $100 each after proclaiming their DP cells induced significant growth in 4 out of 5 patients; and in second clinical trials totally blew it landing investors in deep...
> 
> This is why I cannot place enough emphasis of the coming 12 months regarding Histogens Phase II, if  they can pull off what they did in Phase I again - it will be literally *revolutionary*.


 Not disagreeing with you but isn't Aderans the same idea as Intercytex? My question is that if Intercytex failed, why is Aderans still trying the same? Hopefully it's for a positive reason.

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## CVAZBAR

> Let me put it this way Supernova.
> 
> If Histogen is a scam (i really doubt it because they also have a lot of other succesfull things in their portfolio), a scam which stops your hairloss and also gains regrow on every NW scale in a significant way, like they show it.
> 
> Well then iam very glad to fall for this scam. I really think you mistake Minoxil with cell treatment here.
> 
> HSC works in another way then Minox, i think that even if Histogen is not permanently and you have to get another injection every 5 years or so, with further injections will come more of your hairs back.
> 
> As Dr Ziering stated here, when some user asked a really good question about White and grey hair turn back to normal. You can see that HSC will turn back the clock for hairloss. Just accumulate how long (in years) it took for some people to turn their hair from lets say black to grey.
> ...


 Rich dawg, you hit it straight on. I think that truly is the only hope to actually have great hair again. Histogen most likely wont do it on its own but a combination of things. If Histogen can regrow some hair or prevent further thinning, than you can get transplants and maybe future plucking/no scar unlimited donor transplants. And if Aderans comes through, then forget it. 40's are going to be the new 20's hahaha. Also, kets take note that Hitzig said he was working on the STEM CELL from him extraction/PRP enhanced treatment. He has the idea that maybe these injections will be the ones to turn the cells to progenitor cells. If this works, then we won't even have to wait for Histogen. He said he was going to learn how to do the procedure in a couple weeks and would try it. We will find out this year how that works as well.

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## clee984

> I believe that every possible benefit in science should be used. Its like in this one episode of family guy. Where Peter got a stroke and then he went to a lab which said something like " Stem Cell Research" and he comes out of it normal and says something like " Wow and they really abandon this"
> 
> .


 There's a book called 'Ending Aging' by Aubrey De Grey (who you probably hang around with knowing the circles you move in, Dawkins) in which he gets magnificently indignant about how the Bush administration used 9/11 as an excuse to railroad stem cell research because of their own religious convictions. And he even states (whether this is true or not I don't know, I'm just taking his word for it), that they fall down _by their own definition of what constitutes "life"_. These clumps of cells could never and would never become "alive". They would be disposed of anyway, whether they were experimented with or not. Tbh, I didn't understand a lot of the science, but I like him, despite the man clearly being mentally ill. Interesting book.

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## Manwhore

Is the interview with doc z able to be heard? If so, how do I get it to play? Thanks.

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## UK_

> Not disagreeing with you but isn't Aderans the same idea as Intercytex? My question is that if Intercytex failed, why is Aderans still trying the same? Hopefully it's for a positive reason.


 Aderans focuses on stem cells whilst Intercytex focused on DP cells, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe there is a difference.  Aderans has several protocols and have released mildly promising results from their first protocol, again this is the year for Aderans to show us what they're made of also.

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## UK_

> Rich dawg, you hit it straight on. I think that truly is the only hope to actually have great hair again. Histogen most likely wont do it on its own but a combination of things. If Histogen can regrow some hair or prevent further thinning, than you can get transplants and maybe future plucking/no scar unlimited donor transplants.


 I'd second that, I've been following the Hitzig Cooley & Cole discussion about the Acell, my views is that if Acell can be used to enhance the growth of lung tissue then I am sure it can be used to grow follicles lol - hair loss science by no means moves at exponential rates, but doctors, researchers and the general hair loss community combining to share ideas is what is going to really propel better treatments.

I mean maybe Aderans will gain stronger/thicker multiplied extracted stem cells by following the methods used by Histogen in terms of how they create that embryonic cell state, maybe they're already doing this who knows.

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## matlondon

> There's a book called 'Ending Aging' by Aubrey De Grey (who you probably hang around with knowing the circles you move in, Dawkins) in which he gets magnificently indignant about how the Bush administration used 9/11 as an excuse to railroad stem cell research because of their own religious convictions. And he even states (whether this is true or not I don't know, I'm just taking his word for it), that they fall down _by their own definition of what constitutes "life"_. These clumps of cells could never and would never become "alive". They would be disposed of anyway, whether they were experimented with or not. Tbh, I didn't understand a lot of the science, but I like him, despite the man clearly being mentally ill. Interesting book.


 Well it doesnt matter what the US did, China  has helped   push  stem cell medicine, Western companies have no option now but to either start R&D or lose out in the near future.  
Big pharmas are already feeling the pain as the products patients are coming to an  end, or they can no longer rehash old medication into new medication, they can no longer lobby  to restrict this technology. If they dont join and progress this tech they are out of business. we ARE SEEING THE END OF 19/20 CENTURY Medicine.

With regards to this histogen tech, not only will it help bold people but they will gain revenue from a wider audience as people that have a bit of a receding hair line will opt forward for a small fix, burnt individuals might have the chance to re growth their hair, cancer patients the list it endless.

The next break through is tooth enamel/tooth regeneration and this is only a few years away in fact trials of enamel should be starting  this year and tooth regeneration in 2 years time. 

Those 2 products will end up making trillions your looking at a complete different lifestyle for many, benefiting  society as a whole.

This is what we need as a society stem cell medicine it will reduce government costs, reduce insurance industry costs, yet produce  amazing revenue for those companies.

Banks are dipping into these companies and not into big pharmas as much as they used to.   You price the product at the right level you'll make huge profits, you price it our of reach of the average person the profits will not be as great, another  issue these companies that can produce this product  will have control over it,  not like HT etc...  and there is demand for hair regeneration products BIG demand.

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## matlondon

BTW Intercytex product was a success, the problem wasnt about the product but seeking investment, now this is  more of a cultural problem in the UK. In the UK if you have a novel idea  you find it hard to find investors, UK investors dont really liek to take that much risk, on top of that they really didnt sell themselves to big investment banks while at teh same time it was unfortunate that the crunch happened.

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## jasinfla

Dr, Ziering...if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "Like". I'm fairly new to hair loss and have some strange lines going on in the back of my head but anyways, just wanted to let you know how appreciative I am for the information and how much you care for people and their hair loss. Thanks!

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## fontanajul

As dramatic as this sounds, going through this makes me feel so detached from the rest of the world. But having someone that close to the thing we're looking for post and answer our questions really makes me feel better. This forum has really helped me. 

-Max

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## RichardDawkins

Thanks guys. Well iam not into this one guy you spoke about. I choose Richard.Dawkins for specific reasons as a user name. The reason is simple, people who are so extremely devoted to god will just let their potential and their ideas slip.

Like someone here said, "christians" discuss about stem cells as if you go to hell when you use them, i say nonsense. A lot of other countries are so far involved in stem cell cures that in lets say three years or so they will make our "technology" obsolete to a certain point, thats for sure.

You can see those impacts these days, no one is really investing any more in our average US/European biotech lab anymore. Instead investors are going to the east. And who can blame them.

If i would be a millionaire and there is someone in the east with a working concept and successul pre trails for lets say a cure for cancer. I would gladly invest in his company rather then some "christian" biotech lab in the bible belt or so.

Another thing we see in europe is the medical tourism. Where people actually travel to other countries to get something fixed or repaired. The sad thing is, over the years more and more of those countries developed higher medical standards whereas the county i live in is pretty much stuck on "theories and concepts".

Let me put it this way if Cooley/Hitzig and Histogen are the asian biotech company then we have FUT-Puppet Pluck surgeons in our country.

Oh and Dr Ziering said something pretty important, to actually educate patients with upcoming treatments today. In germany well they wouldnt tell you anything about Acell even if you would put a gun to their head.

US-Hairloss sufferers should at least be glad to a certain point, theire surgeons are willed to go new ways, even if it would take 2 or 3 years, at least some of them are doing something.

But also the hairloss community has the obligation to educate their surgeons, i send some emails to some surgeons in germany and contacted some via phone. Guess what only ONE was interested in considering Acell. They asked me if i could help them with some informations etc.

The others were not interested or came up with stupid arguments like "This wont work its snake oil"

So i did at least what i could for german hairloss sufferers, i hope you guys get also the motivation to convice your surgeons to use or try or experiment with Acell.

And thanks Dr Ziering for answering the questions here. The interest is actually far beyond everything you can imagine. The same goes for Acell "multiplication"

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## matlondon

> I must admit that I am very impressed and delighted with the level of interest and depth of knowledge displayed by this forums posts.
> It is great that we all share such passion for hair.
> I would like to comment on a few things .
> 1.HSC is not for sale now and if and when it is , it will have very specific and well substantiated proof for any claims that it makes.
> 2.I can only speak for myself but I would bet my peers have the same sentiment.
> I welcome any product or technique that benefits people suffering from hairloss regardless of its origins. 
> 3.I am in this field because I love it and I have dedicated over 20 years to the field and my patients and maintain that it is a blessing and a priveledge to do what my staff and I do.
> 4.I am becoming involved with a hair restoration practice in the UK ,and with the help of several of my colleagues we hope to raise the level of care,knowledge and skills in the UK and educate patients about all their options.
> I like many of you just hope to have a positive impact on peoples lives.
> ...


 But if you are  involved then you must have a price range for the product?
Hair loss  regeneration is a matter of time, i  guess companies are rushing to be the 1st to release this product before others to build up a client base and their market share. If this product truely works then more men would  seek help. We all know HT  is the very last resort and an act of desperation, having a few injections matter of 30 mins +/-. the issue with all the other  hair loss products  is time consuming and remembering to take the meds etc..

If the product works hair loss centers will be like dental surgeries, you would go in hand over cells  come back in 2 week get treated and leave. Freeing up time for both the individual and the doctor, everyone wins.
The reason i know there would be a big demand for a cell based hair regeneration product, like the ones in progress,   i have spoken to a few people about hair loss and when i mentioned  a couple of injections for reverse hair loss their eyes open up and they all said  they would opt for it, and this is from a small sample of 23 men.

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## PayDay

> As dramatic as this sounds, going through this makes me feel so detached from the rest of the world. But having someone that close to the thing we're looking for post and answer our questions really makes me feel better. This forum has really helped me. 
> 
> -Max


 Its not dramatic! The Bald truth show, and this forum have helped my life more then words can describe. Before I found this, I felt very alone and unhappy.  Thank you Dr. Ziering for taking the time to help us all out.

----------


## LarryDavid

Thank you Dr. Ziering for answering questions here.

I have two Question concerning your interview:

1. It has not become clear to me what exactly are the results 2 years after one single injection. I can see pictures on the Histogen website which show  the hair growth after 12 weeks, 5 month and 12 month. As i can see in the statistics below the the pictures, after 12 month there is still new and thicker hair growing. Now after 2 years, is there still an increase in numbers of hair and hair thickness? I mean compared to the 1 year update, are there now more and thicker Hairs? Or were the 1 year results just lasting for one more year?

2. Will there be an update on the Histogen website which shows macrophotos and statistics regarding the 2 year results?

----------


## clee984

> Dr, Ziering...if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "Like". I'm fairly new to hair loss and have some strange lines going on in the back of my head but anyways, just wanted to let you know how appreciative I am for the information and how much you care for people and their hair loss. Thanks!


 Dr Zeiring, if this was Facebook, I would give you a huge "like" for having the sign off "Doc Z"! It makes you sound like a comic book supervillian  :Big Grin: 

The stem cell debate always reminds me of the napster controversey: The technology is there. It isn't going to go away just because you click your heels together and say there's no place like home. Trying to deny it or stop it, for religious or any other reasons, helps nobody.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yeah but it slows the success down. And this is annoying ;-)

----------


## UK_

> Thank you Dr. Ziering for answering questions here.
> 
> I have two Question concerning your interview:
> 
> 1. It has not become clear to me what exactly are the results 2 years after one single injection. I can see pictures on the Histogen website which show  the hair growth after 12 weeks, 5 month and 12 month. As i can see in the statistics below the the pictures, after 12 month there is still new and thicker hair growing. Now after 2 years, is there still an increase in numbers of hair and hair thickness? I mean compared to the 1 year update, are there now more and thicker Hairs? Or were the 1 year results just lasting for one more year?
> 
> 2. Will there be an update on the Histogen website which shows macrophotos and statistics regarding the 2 year results?


 
If I could weigh in with my opinion here; I believe after a certain period after the injection there was a drop-off in new hair growth c12 - 16 weeks?, yet any gains remained present for (so far) up to two years.

Which hands down beats Propecia & Minox - treatments that work for c65&#37; of patients, Histogen hit c80% (?)  Patients did not need to re-inject for up to two years, as opposed to Propecia and Minox which MUST be taken everyday for as long as you wish to keep your hair.  My question to all the sceptics is:  Where's the shed?  HSC did not induce a shed after discontinuing usage as is commonly associated with Propecia and Minox.

So, taking this into account, they're no longer merely looking at preventing the debilitating impact of DHT or vasodilatation of the scalp to merely 'extend' the lifespan of the hair but actually turning back the clock and recreating what happened during the embryonic phase in which hair follicles were being created for the very first time.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> If I could weigh in with my opinion here; I believe after a certain period after the injection there was a drop-off in new hair growth c12 - 16 weeks?, yet any gains remained present for (so far) up to two years.
> 
> Which hands down beats Propecia & Minox - treatments that work for c65% of patients, Histogen hit c80% (?)  Patients did not need to re-inject for up to two years, as opposed to Propecia and Minox which MUST be taken everyday for as long as you wish to keep your hair.  My question to all the sceptics is:  Where's the shed?  HSC did not induce a shed after discontinuing usage as is commonly associated with Propecia and Minox.
> 
> So, taking this into account, they're no longer merely looking at preventing the debilitating impact of DHT or vasodilatation of the scalp to merely 'extend' the lifespan of the hair but actually turning back the clock and recreating what happened during the embryonic phase in which hair follicles were being created for the very first time.


 If turning back the clock is truly the case, it would be something amazing. As much as i want to get excited, something always makes me think, if all this is really possible. Injections to reverse hair loss? Hair multiplication? Are we really going to be a part of this soon? Sometimes i think of hair loss like aging. No matter how much you try, you can't stop from getting old and hair loss seems to be the same. Is an 80 year old man really going to be able to have hair like a 25 year old? Seems impossible but i surely hope and pray this will be possible soon. BTW, if Histogen works for diffuse thinning, does that mean you could inject it anywhere in the head? I was thinking about old people who still have hair on the sides but is real thin. Would it help to keep hair thick from the sides as well?

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Aderans focuses on stem cells whilst Intercytex focused on DP cells, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe there is a difference.  Aderans has several protocols and have released mildly promising results from their first protocol, again this is the year for Aderans to show us what they're made of also.


 Is Aderans, Follica and Trichoscience the same thing? Is it the same idea? They all seem similar and I keep wondering why none of these ****ers have came out. I haven't heard any news or updates.

----------


## UK_

> If turning back the clock is truly the case, it would be something amazing. As much as i want to get excited, something always makes me think, if all this is really possible. Injections to reverse hair loss? Hair multiplication? Are we really going to be a part of this soon? Sometimes i think of hair loss like aging. No matter how much you try, you can't stop from getting old and hair loss seems to be the same. Is an 80 year old man really going to be able to have hair like a 25 year old? Seems impossible but i surely hope and pray this will be possible soon. BTW, if Histogen works for diffuse thinning, does that mean you could inject it anywhere in the head? I was thinking about old people who still have hair on the sides but is real thin. Would it help to keep hair thick from the sides as well?


 Interesting comment, a lot of individuals see it as a far fetched idea that even some day 60 - 70 year old men may have full heads of hair, but it does happen, and therefore if it is physically possible to achieve - in this case then we need to look at the obstacles, overcome them and re-create from the bottom-up what we lost, which is exactly the purpose of 'regenerative' medicine.  

The concept of regenerative medicine (as we all know) has attracted a large degree of controversy, and what I am about to say may seem far fetched but do consider it, if in nature certain animals can lose a limb and grow it back within a few days, then it is technically _feasible_ (as we are viewing its occurrence in nature) we just need to find out how it is done and apply it to humans.

----------


## UK_

> Is Aderans, Follica and Trichoscience the same thing? Is it the same idea? They all seem similar and I keep wondering why none of these ****ers have came out. I haven't heard any news or updates.


 Aderans focuses on transplanting stem cells from the back of the scalp to balding areas, they have several protocols, Follica keep their cards close to their chest but I believe they are working in the same direction as Histogen by using types of 'gene therapy' to induce follicular neogenesis.  Trichoscience seems similar to Intercytex, they may either be working with DP cells or Stem Cells.

Still, Histogen have clearly set a new standard with a 2 year follow-up and no hair loss in any of the patients that were apart of that first 80% circle; I believe Aderans helped 50% maintain new follicles after 1 year and their best protocol worked well (in this sense "noticeable hair gains) in 70% of patients which again lags behind Histogens achievements.

----------


## KeepHoping

There is a lot of speculation that the histogen product won't work as well for people that have gotten transplants becuase transplants may cause damage or destroy surrounding follicles in the recipient area, I'm not sure if this is the case but if so, do you think Histogen's product would be less effective? And is it actually true that when you transplant hair you are killing the follicles around where they are being placed in the recipient? 

In other words is Histogen's HSC dependant on reawakening dormant follicles or is it actually creating brand new follicles is what I'm wondering if you have the answer to.  This is very important for people considering hair transplants at this point, especially me with a MPB pattern but with diffuse thinning across the top of the scalp, if your product works by reawakening follicles in their original positions then it could potentially give me my natural head of hair again as I had when I was a kid if it's only creating new ones, it makes no difference and I can go and get a transplant.

Thanks

----------


## UK_

> And is it actually true that when you transplant hair you are killing the follicles around where they are being placed in the recipient? Thanks


 That's a good point, you're possibly damaging the still existing stem cells/follicles in the recipient area and also creating scar tissue in the donor area, but the HSC could also be used to stimulate new follicles in the rear of the scalp and have them transplanted to frontal areas.  However, the statement of 'creating new hair follicles' is a controversial one; referring to the work by Follica for instance, they stated that even in a scalp that appears literally shining bald, the hair is still present but it is microscopic.  

So in that context, another way of looking at _how_ the HSC is working, is not that it is creating _new follicles_ but it is actually kicking those microscopic scalp hairs back into action, which also ties in well with the high degree of "control" the HSC imputes as stated by Dr Ziering, in other words; perhaps the reason he didnt see hair sprouting from the forehead etc is because those stem cells are just not present there.  Now you have to question, what is in store for an individual who may have lost those miniaturised stem cells through constant transplants, I hope after Phase II we will gain answers to such questions.

----------


## LarryDavid

Thanks a lot for answering my questions. I&#180;m looking forward to the 4 weeks update and thank you for sharing this with the community.

I have one more question:
If HSC only stimulates the existing hairfollicles (not creates new follicles) to grow new hair, I assume that you can even build a natural Hairline with HSC because (for example) if u  inject the HSC on the forehead, there would be no terminal hairgrowth. 

I hope you understand what i mean  :Smile:

----------


## RichardDawkins

Dr Ziering i have another question.

You said something about 25 hairs per 0.1cc injection. I am not familiar how i can set this in relation to anything else.

Could you perhaps give an example in what relation we can put this. I really dont know under what circumstances 0.1cc are much and under what circumstances 0.1cc is almost nothing.

And does this mean that you got 25 hairs at an areal of 2mm times 2mm? If so, this does mean you got your natural hairdensity or am i wrong.

And another question, do you see some significanc in hair appearance like the new hair looks somehow more youthful and healthy when compared to donor area.

Maybe those are stupid questions but they help me to understand the relations here.

Also iam impressed that Histogen is going for the full frontal right now 50+ injections Holy Crap. And also wow four weeks, i didnt really expect anything from Histogen by lets say end of 2011 the earliest.

Thanks for your patience

----------


## gmonasco

> The scientists at Histogen believe that the new hairs seen at 1 year are a result of stimulating stem cells in the scalp and in existing normal and miniaturizing follicles to grow new hairs.


 I'm a little confused: Why would HSC cause "existing normal follicles" to be growing "new hair"?  Aren't normal follicles already growing hair?    Do you mean that they're coming out of the telogen phase earlier than they normally would?

----------


## UK_

> Histogen's HSC study showed a statistically significant increase in the number of terminal hairs and hair thickness at 12 weeks. At the five month timepoint there was a decrease in hairs in a number of patients, but a significant increase again at 12 months, with the number of new hairs again reaching statistical significance at one year. There were approximately 25 new hairs per 0.1cc injection and the treatment effect  was seen within 2mm of the injection site.
> 
> The HSC works by stimulating stem cells in the dermal papilla of the hair follicle to grow new hairs. It also seems that stem cells in the scalp can be stimulated to grow into new hair follicles. This has been shown to be possible in the mouse model using the components that are part of HSC and so Histogen's trial really substantiates in patients with male pattern baldness what has been shown to be possible in mice for the past few years. 
> 
> Doc Z


 Wow this is great information Dr Ziering, thank you kindly for sharing it with us all, we're very lucky to have you on this forum answering our questions.  It is very pleasing to note that there was a further increase in growth at 12 months even after the 5 month drop-off, it seems to me that the HSC seems to be working well in-line with the natural growth/resting phases of the hair cycle itself.

----------


## KeepHoping

Dr. Ziering,

I'm not asking for a definitive answer if you don't know but what I was asking was whether or not having a transplant will effect HSC's ability to work because the transplanted hair may damage follicles underneith the surface of the skin or even destroy follicles that were there to make room for the follicles being transplanted.  I think many people are worried about getting a transplant at this point because although histogen would be able to make the transplanted hair thicker it may not be able to restore a person to his/her natural density because of damage of dormant follicles.  

Thank you so much for being active in the forum and helping those suffering with hairloss, I think I speak for many of us when i say it is greatly appreciated.

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## rapunzal

> Histogen is performing exploratory case studies in Asia where patients are receiving 50+ injections at base line to assess hair growth over time. The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.    
> Doc Z


 Dr Ziering
How do these exploratory case studies fit into the phased trial studies that will commence in a few months ? Is it an early start of the trials or to test a range of protocols that will be used in the trials
cheers

----------


## gmonasco

> So what if the hair wont survive the cycle? If it grew it in the first place, then get another injection.


 Uh, no.  You cannot simply assume that repeated applications of a given treatment will produce exactly the same results as previous applications.  That is something which has to be established through testing.

----------


## mlao

Dr. Zering I have a question regarding how HSC will ultimately be distributed
if and when it is released. Will you set up clinics under the banner of Histogen or will it be administered by independent doctors who are trained in its application.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Uh, no.  You cannot simply assume that repeated applications of a given treatment will produce exactly the same results as previous applications.  That is something which has to be established through testing.


 Uh, Im not assuming. This was brought up in the past interviews and like I said before, we still need to wait on the upcoming trials. Why didn't you answer my question on my last reply?

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## gmonasco

> Uh, Im not assuming. This was brought up in the past interviews and like I said before, we still need to wait on the upcoming trials


 "We have to wait on the upcoming trials" means "we don't know yet."  Stating as fact something that you don't know to be true is called an "assumption."

----------


## gmonasco

> I doubt you will have to wait a LIFETIME homie so don't worry about that ha. I think its pretty obvious that we still don't know shit about it but i do know we wont have to wait a couple of lifetimes to find out. We will know soon enough.


 Please try to follow along.  Move your lips while you read if it helps.

What I said was that you cannot know with certainty what affect a particular treatment will have over the course of a lifetime without having tested it over the course of a lifetime.  That is not the same thing as "You will have to wait a lifetime before this treatment is available."

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Please try to follow along.  Move your lips while you read if it helps.
> 
> What I said was that you cannot know with certainty what affect a particular treatment will have over the course of a lifetime without having tested it over the course of a lifetime.  That is not the same thing as "You will have to wait a lifetime before this treatment is available."


 HAHAHA exactly. Avoid my question. Go copy and paste more of my comments if that makes you feel better. I said it once and ill say it again, move your lips while you read it as well. WE STILL DONT KNOW SHIT UNTIL THE TRIALS ARE DONE. Hopefully using caps will help you.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> "We have to wait on the upcoming trials" means "we don't know yet."  Stating as fact something that you don't know to be true is called an "assumption."


 That's my point lame. You are only just assuming shit as well. That's why i sarcastically said if you use one injection, you can use it again if it grew in the first place but did you take the time to read what i wrote after?? I clearly stated, It's obvious we don't know shit at this point. So why don't we stop assuming and let the trials finish. What were you expecting from this interview? We already had the results from the pre-trials. 4 Months later you were expecting to hear breaking news on WHAT?? ha. I don't feel like arguing back and forth over this shit. Someone else clearly told you before i even said anything. Blowmeup wrote "Im pretty sure that was all covered in this interview" and he gave you the link. Now if you never followed the past Histogen interviews, then i understand why you might be disappointed. Other than that, i don't understand what you're crying about. Histogen had nothing new to post. TRIALS JUST STARTING.

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## tbtadmin

We ask that all users of BTT forums act in a respectful and civil manner when posting their questions, concerns and opinions. This is a place to learn from each other, share ideas and information and to communicate with experts in the field, not a place to voice unfounded personal attacks. 

Thank you for your cooperation on this matter.

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## CVAZBAR

I apologize

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## gmonasco

> You are only just assuming shit as well.


 Here's a handy reference guide:

The statement "I believe, without evidence, that X is true" is an assumption.

The statement "You cannot know X to be true without evidence" is not an assumption.

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## ThinFast

Come on guys, just drop it... we sound like idiots arguing over things that really cannot be argued on at this point.  Take it to pm if you need closure.


Doc Z, thank you very much for answering all of the questions.  We are all EXTREMELY excited about the development of HSC.  To my understanding, HSC "resets the clock" back to the beginning.  When I was younger, I had much lighter and curlier hair than what I've had for most of my life (which is now dark and straight).  From listening to multiple interviews, I wonder if my hair would first take on the blonde curly type I had as a child?

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## RichardDawkins

I hope that Dr Z will answer my questions  :Frown:

----------


## Kamille

I have a question too for Dr Ziering. I know most people here are men but I would like to know if Histogen is planning some clinical trials on women too, and when. Thank you for your answer.

----------


## UK_

> I have a question too for Dr Ziering. I know most people here are men but I would like to know if Histogen is planning some clinical trials on women too, and when. Thank you for your answer.


 Hi,

I think some of the following links might be of use to you in answering your questions regarding HSC, (particularly the first one in which Spencer directly asks Gail Naughton about treatments for women).  

http://www.thebaldtruth.com/articles...wth-interview/

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1349

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1824

----------


## Kamille

Thank you for the links!

----------


## andycanon

i just wish all these companies who are doing the same thing would join forces and get a move on this.. as competition may only speed things up to get there before each other maybe causing or missing some important factors when rushing.

Its like government why is there always many sides and one leader.. can they not just all work together and bloody use some team work?

----------


## mlao

At this point I believe that Aderans is the leader in this race. They keep their research fairly quiet unless they have something concrete to announce. They have significantly more revenue to invest in the research, and they are already in phase II trials.
Why Histogen talks about phase II trials which they continually postpone is beyond me. They say that they have gotten 10 million dollars in investments but if the product is so good I would think that venture capitalists would be falling over themselves to invest.
They did a pilot study with 25 subjects yet they have only shown one photo of hair growth in a real headshot (not those magnified pictures of small areas) and haven't bothered to explain it in detail on any forum.
I wish they would at least be open and honest to the millions of perspective customers who have waited years for a product like the one they supposedly have.
Just my two cents.

----------


## gmonasco

> Its like government why is there always many sides and one leader.. can they not just all work together and bloody use some team work?


 Because, unfortunately, the driving force in such research is a profit motive rather than the public good, and joining forces to work together is not conducive to maximizing profit.

It might be a good thing, though: if such research depended upon appeals to the public good for its funding, it might be an even much lower priority than it is now.

Sad to say, if pattern baldness affected little girls, there'd likely be yearly telethons raising millions and millions of research dollars to cure it.

----------


## RichardDawkins

I dont know who the eader is but all i can say is its not 5 to 10 years anymore. Also if you look from different angles here, well its obvious that something is cooking big time.

But one thing which really makes my piss boil is, that we could already had things fixed right now if the research would have gone in the right direction 10 or more years ago :-)

I bet if did would have started 10 years ago in the right direction, most of the younger hairloss sufferers would never experience hairloss in a dramatic way.

But as they always say better late then never, right. Also even if there are many negativ voices who say stuff like "he pulls hot air out of his ass" i can only respond " Well even in the biggest fart of hot air, there is always one single molecule which smells like roses".

It doesnt matter if someone keeps his informations close or someone presenting them to the public because guess what, the internet never forgets anything and i highly doubt that Dr Ziering, Histogen or whoever will come to the BaldTruth radio show only to get his reputation ass handed afterwards.

I think the fact that some doctors are trying new ways is, that the hairloss community gets more and more demanding and educated and also more and more repair cases come up :-( so its only natural to find something to please people and prepare yourself for the future.

In the short run (2years or so) my bet is on Acell plucking but the long run is on stuff like Histogen. The only thing i hope is that Histogens injection will really work more then just temporary PRP. A sure fire proof for the long run is the effect such an injection has on the donor area. If the hair got healthier etc then you have a winner.

Anyways i hope we get some infos in around 4 weeks. Btw guys till Histogen comes to market you should get your surgeons to establish Acell, because lets face it, the majority of hairloss sufferers will need a hair transplant even with fully working histogen or aderans on the market.

----------


## gmonasco

> I dont know who the eader is but all i can say is its not 5 to 10 years anymore. Also if you look from different angles here, well its obvious that something is cooking big time.


 I'd say that the tools for attacking the problem may finally be at hand, but how long it will take to use them to fashion a workable solution is up in the air.




> i highly doubt that Dr Ziering, Histogen or whoever will come to the BaldTruth radio show only to get his reputation ass handed afterwards.


 Maybe, but you can say a lot without actually saying much of anything.  Most of the "official" talk about HSC so far has been along the lines of: "We did a preliminary test on a small group of subjects, and the results bring up more questions than anything else."

----------


## LarryDavid

> the majority of hairloss sufferers will need a hair transplant even with fully working histogen or aderans on the market.


 Why is that?

----------


## RichardDawkins

Thats a simple thing nobody actually adresses, people will get addicted to hair at a certain point. Let me put it this way

If Histogen would be on the market and your hairloss stops or is resetted and there is a hairtransplantation technique which guarantees unlimited donor.

Would you or wouldnt you get as much hair as possible even if you would look like Eddie Munster? Just answer yourself the question honestly. 

And as much as i see potential in Histogen i dont know if you could get back full density so a hair transplant is then your weapon of choice even if you only fill in your sides.

I can tell you today, many men will be addicted to hairtransplants in the really near future, all i can say about me is, i hope i wont get addicted but i cant guarantee it myself and also i hope it wont bring me to the point where i begin to getting insane about myself and only love me.

Right now some may find this stupid or unrealistic but believe me with super technologies at hand its an easy thing to get addicted to something.

Cause face it, if the plucking technique is getting better and better you actually got "infinite" possibilities to do anything with your hair.

Speaking about me, iam that stupid iam actually savong money right now to get it done in the near future when more and more results, positive nature, are in.

And thats from someone who started like this " Uhhh hair transplant that sounds cool they only cut out some back of the head and then my headisfull of hear sure deal" yep that was me thank Vishnu i found messages boards.

----------


## gmonasco

> If Histogen would be on the market and your hairloss stops or is resetted and there is a hairtransplantation technique which guarantees unlimited donor. Would you or wouldnt you get as much hair as possible even if you would look like Eddie Munster? Just answer yourself the question honestly.


 I'd have my hair restored to the point that I was satisfied and comfortable with its look, and then I'd move on.  But just as some people become addicted to other forms of cosmetic surgery, I'm sure some might become addicted to hair transplantation if the donor supply were unlimited.

----------


## gmonasco

> Why is [it that the majority of hairloss sufferers will need a hair transplant even with fully working histogen or aderans on the market]?


 Presumably because either might be able to increase the amount of hair on one's head, but not fully enough to create a desired cosmetic appearance (and thus would still need to be supplemented by hair transplants in some cases).

----------


## RichardDawkins

gmonasco you are right, this can be the case.

Also even if Histogen and Ari will work 120&#37; i wouldnt rule out hair transplants. Its better to be safe then sorry.

Iam only realistic here, Histogen will have its unbattled and unreached high points when it comes to vertex restoration because i see the head as a two zone problem.

Zone 1 : Frontal area and the most important area can be restored with relatively less grafts

Zone 2 : Vertex area and the unbeaten source of everyones nightmare and also the Grafts grave.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

With working Histogen and working Acell Plucking i would do the following.

1) Create and fully restore my frontal area over the point of "Just an illusion" with Acell plucking

2) use Histogen for the rest

3) wait some years and then got the finishing touch if needed (at this point i hope hair transplant surgeons have figured out how to do FUE-multiplication :-)

4) Get addicted because i know myself ;-)

------------------------------------------------------

Anyway i think its very good to get positive updates because it helps a lot of hairloss sufferers

----------------------------------------------------
Oh and come to think of it. maybe some people think iam to overly optimistic. They may be right but let me put it this way

1) Even some docs have seen donor regrowth after FUE without Acell, thats a fact we all know.

So the simple question here is *Why not go from a one time "accident" to a sure fire method*? You get my drift here

With Acell the chances are getting to our favor, or are they not? Just do it, seat yourself for 5 minutes and think about this case, just think about it :-)

----------


## CVAZBAR

> gmonasco you are right, this can be the case.
> 
> Also even if Histogen and Ari will work 120% i wouldnt rule out hair transplants. Its better to be safe then sorry.
> 
> Iam only realistic here, Histogen will have its unbattled and unreached high points when it comes to vertex restoration because i see the head as a two zone problem.
> 
> Zone 1 : Frontal area and the most important area can be restored with relatively less grafts
> 
> Zone 2 : Vertex area and the unbeaten source of everyones nightmare and also the Grafts grave.
> ...


 HAHA I want to think like you but I cant. I need to see it to believe it. I wish i could go to the future just to get the answer and then come back relaxed haha. Unless I find out the cure wont come till 20 years from now. ****!! Hopefully its 5 years TOPS.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Sometimes you have to think out of the box ;-) i say lets the next 4 to 5 weeks (yes 5 weeks cause timelines are ment to be broken)

But seriously Grafts grow back sometimes, ask any ht doc who performs FUE.

----------


## UK_

I am very pleased to hear from Dr Ziering that Histogen have already commenced their initial exploratory studies (Phase I/II), I highly anticipate the results, as stated we have seen over the past few decades companies come and go with promise after promise, but in this respect I can atleast believe that the method Histogen adopts has shown to induce follicular neogenesis in animals - it just needed to be proven in humans aswel, which is where we are today.

I certainly agree that there could be a conflation of HSC and HT, rebuilding the frontal hairline may be better accomplished with a HT combined with Acell/plucking technique and HSC to complement the procedure to aid the growth in the extracted follicular units.  I am sure the upcoming trials will aid in the answering of any further questions, one of which being whether the HSC could be applied in a topical format.  Histogen has certainly battled through some tough times, and I truly wish them all the best of support in all of their research areas.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Agree, thats actually a good plan with the maximum effect you can have  :Smile: 

And if you feel uncomfortable and your hairloss is on hold later on you could go for a FUE if its needed.

But i dont know why, but i think Histogen could get us back our original density i cant really say why i believe this but its a gutfeeling very strange

----------


## mlao

[QUOTE=Dr. Craig Ziering;22585]I must state that I dont run Histogen but I am an advisor for them.
My suggestion would be to  administer HSC by independent hair restoration surgeons who are trained in its application and are experienced in the field so we can closely monitor treatment and response .  

Doc Z[/QUO
TE]

Dr. Zering, 
I'm not sure you can answer these questions perhaps Gail Naughton would have a better perspective on these, but since you seem to be the only representative of the Company speaking publicly right now I will pose them to you.
Don't you think there may be some trepidation for a lot of perspective patients from the west when having to travel to the far east to have the procedure done.
Or does Histogen believe that people would take a giant leap and go to a country where they are unfamiliar with the language, medical practices, and legal system to get their hair back.
Which brings to mind another question. Is this being promoted more heavily in the countries where the trials are being done.
These issues are the reason I asked in my earlier post if it would be performed under a clinic owned and sanction by Histogen.

----------


## gmonasco

> Don't you think there may be some trepidation for a lot of perspective patients from the west when having to travel to the far east to have the procedure done.
> 
> Or does Histogen believe that people would take a giant leap and go to a country where they are unfamiliar with the language, medical practices, and legal system to get their hair back.


 I can't speak for Dr. Ziering, of course, but the point is that the length of the approval process in Asian countries is significantly shorter than in North America, and there's not much Histogen can do about that fact.  So, even though some patients may have trepidation about traveling to Asia for such a procedure, it's a better option than having no choice at all.  Would anyone be better served if Histogen refrained from making their product available anywhere in the world until it had secured U.S. regulatory approval?

----------


## mlao

> I can't speak for Dr. Ziering, of course, but the point is that the length of the approval process in Asian countries is significantly shorter than in North America, and there's not much Histogen can do about that fact.  So, even though some patients may have trepidation about traveling to Asia for such a procedure, it's a better option than having no choice at all.  Would anyone be better served if Histogen refrained from making their product available anywhere in the world until it had secured U.S. regulatory approval?


 I am not suggesting that they wait until they receive U.S. approval.
I am saying that if a they had a Histogen owned and operated clinic that could deal with the intricacies of a large western cliental, 
(language, travel, lodging, etc..) it would be to their benefit. 
We all want to get our hair back but how many times have you read posts by people who impulsively got some treatment (PRP, Acell, transplant) from a practitioner who they feel did not fully inform them of the possible problems with the procedure.
Regardless of what most of us think about the Aderans/Bosley connection  their network is a far better model to bring the therapy to a waiting public.

----------


## gmonasco

> I am saying that if a they had a Histogen owned and operated clinic that could deal with the intricacies of a large western cliental (language, travel, lodging, etc..) it would be to their benefit.


 It might be more to their benefit (and ours) if they invested their time, money, and resources in continuing development of the product and securing approval for it in western countries rather than trying to set up and operate clinics on the other side of the globe.

----------


## fontanajul

Hey Doc Z, when I get back home to LA for the summer... I'd be MORE than happy to have you give me as many HSC treatments as you'd like. =)

-Max

PS- Seriously. haha

----------


## mlao

All the best hair transplant clinics in the world take the things I spoke about into account.
How can we be sure a doctor from a different culture no matter how well they are trained in western medicine and practices will hold themselves culpable to the patient.
Everyone on this site is jumping for joy over the pronouncements Histogen has been making, even with almost no photographic evidence to back it up. 
I dare say that tomorrow if it was available in Chernobyl there would probably be plane loads of guys flying out to get the injections. 
I really want this to work and make no mistake I could and would gladly fly to Asia to have it done. I just want to know that when it comes to market there is a health practitioner and company who will stand behind the product and know how to properly advise the patients.

----------


## mlao

> Anyone administering the treatment would be trained and certified by the company . My suggestion to the company was to use only ISHRS surgeons as the initial pool of doctors to train.
> Please note though that the plan would be to treat patients locally in the United States and Europe as well.
> 
> Doc Z


 Thanks Dr. Zering I think you see my point with this.
It would be great if some doctors in Asia were ISHRS certified but that's
up to Spencer not you. Thanks again for the response.

----------


## mlao

> For clarification these are two different organizations....
> ISHRS and IAHRS(Spencer's)


 I stand corrected.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Thanks for asking the questions Dr Z

----------


## Westonci

Hello Dr. Ziering I have a question about the timeframe in the future.

Hopefully Histogen HSC comes to market in 2013-2014 however the exact date is anyones guess at this time.

However When do you think Histogen will set a diffinitve date? 6 months before release? 1 year before release?

----------


## UK_

> It is my pleasure . I want the same things that most of you want as well.


 Dr Ziering I am not sure how much data you have on how the body receives, processes then extracts the wnt 7a, but I would be very greatful if you could help me answer the following questions:

Regarding the mechanism of the wnt 7a, I understand that it is a signalling protein, but how does it exactly work to keep the hair stimulated for so long?  Does the wnt 7a stay within the hair follicle constantly signalling hair growth?   Or does it stimulate ("wake up") the 'dormant' cells in the scalp and is then extracted/metabolised by the body?  If the latter is true, then I guess the safety of the product is greatly enhanced right?

Thanks.

----------


## montrose

Would these injections grow hair in a donor scar after an FUT strip surgery?

----------


## HelpROGER

> For clarification these are two different organizations....
> ISHRS and IAHRS(Spencer's)


 Too bad there are no IAHRS doctors in Asia. I would be a little nervous going to a doctor who is not endorsed by Kobren, but I guess this not surgery :Smile:  Dr. Ziering will these doctors be trained by you?

----------


## HairTalk

Is Histogen seeking participants for its H.S.C. study?

Thanks.

----------


## UK_

> Too bad there are no IAHRS doctors in Asia. I would be a little nervous going to a doctor who is not endorsed by Kobren, but I guess this not surgery Dr. Ziering will these doctors be trained by you?


 Regarding administration of the HSC...  Perhaps they may develop a topical solution (I doubt it however), in the research released at the beginning of January by University of P the issue highlighted the issue as a problem of 'faulty stem cells'.  We can be exposed to androgens for decades before we even start going bald; the issue is with the 'factory' that is the stem cells, we just need a compound to fire up the stem cells (easier said than done), and get the factory stem cells to start churning out DP/PROTG cells again producing healthy hair.

----------


## HairTalk

> No not at this time .


 Is there any way by which to be notified when and if Histogen is seeking subjects for an upcoming clinical trial of H.S.C.?

Thank you.

----------


## KeepHoping

I have a few questions for you Dr. Ziering.  First off, do you believe with confidence that HSC has the capability of restoring a full head of hair to original or at least close to original density?  Second, if the results of the original trails of HSC showing thicker hairs and a higher hair count were a result of restoring "dormant" follicles do you believe a transplant would impact the dormant follicles of the scalp and therefore hurt HSC's ability to work efficiently?  Last, will there be a trail where you would consider including trailists who have taken propecia? 

Thank you so much for taking an active stance on this forum, it means a lot to me and I would imagine to a lot of other users as well.

----------


## HairTalk

> I can let Spencer know.


 Yes, please; thank you. If you need any information from me to forward, for this purpose, please just let me know.

Thanks again, Dr. Ziering.

----------


## nature

Hello!!
I have a question for you Dr. Ziering.
Are you going to increas together dosage of HSC and number of injections, or just one thing from that.

----------


## UK_

Acell may be acting in a similar fashion to the components of the HSC that directly create angiogenesis, instead of using the VEGF etc could the component to promote the angiogenesis actually be Acell?  

i.e. Acell+WNT7A+PRP

----------


## RichardDawkins

Wowo you go full frontal you wanna be Elvis or something :-)

----------


## CAlex

Hell Dr Ziering.

First thank-you for spending so much time answering all of the questions you receive on here.

I have a question which I hope you can answer. Do you know what area was being measured in Histogens first trial? It had statistics of an increase of 84 hairs after 1 year on patients who got the hsc injections!

I am trying to find over what area/2 that data is about. 2 cm2 1   inch/2 ??? etc http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm (about 1/5 down the page is what I refer to)

also if you are allowed or feel confident. how many hairs per cm/2 Histogen may be able to produce when all is said and done?

I dont expect it to be able to recreate original density but do you think 50 new hairs/cm2 is in the ballpark??

Thank you Dr. Ziering

----------


## CAlex

thank you for posting the area in which the data was regarding :P

im new, so does that mean histogen was able to produce roughly 56 NEW hairs per cm/2?

If so that is extraordinary and I cant wait to see what happens with the next set of trials results. Even if 56 new hairs/cm2 is the max number that this hsc formula is ever able to produce imo that is still such a breakthrough. If those numbers can be reproduced consistently over a larger area it would by far be the best treatment ever available  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

> The area measured is 1.47 cm2


 This is why im so excited about HSC - nothing has ever, proven to produce so much hair in such a small area, just imagine if this compound is applied to say a larger sq area of the scalp.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Even right at this point they could easily put it on the market, thats really something.

My prediction or hopes are, if it can produce this yield right in this early tests, it should be possible to reverse the hair status to at least 90% or your original density.

But i dont know and i dont think it will work on extensive scar tissue. But if it works i say Respect

----------


## Nina

Dr. Ziering,
regarding trials for women, will the treatment be based on the same principles as for men? 
Will you be waiting for men trials to end first or? 
If trials for men finish with good results, why women couldn't take the same treatment (as is the case with Rogaine 5%)?
More and more women have problems with hair loss, not to mention children. It's even more devastating. So we'd also like the treatment the soonest possible.
Thank you

----------


## CVAZBAR

> This is why im so excited about HSC - nothing has ever, proven to produce so much hair in such a small area, just imagine if this compound is applied to say a larger sq area of the scalp.


 Hitzig with Acell and Ziering with Histogen are supposed to report news on results soon and I cant wait.

----------


## UK_

> Hitzig with Acell and Ziering with Histogen are supposed to report news on results soon and I cant wait.


 Same here, haven't been this excited to see the onset of spring in years lol.

----------


## HairTalk

Does anyone know when results are expected to be posted?

----------


## Gubter_87

I believe Dr. Ziering said he would be posting some kind of initial results from an exploratory study in about three weeks.
But what results are Dr. Hitzig planning on sharing with us in the near future?

----------


## CVAZBAR

> I believe Dr. Ziering said he would be posting some kind of initial results from an exploratory study in about three weeks.
> But what results are Dr. Hitzig planning on sharing with us in the near future?


 Dr. Hitzing recently replied on another thread stating that he has some new exciting news. Not sure what it is but he said he would hope to BLOW OUR MINDS haha. That shit better be good haha.

----------


## UK_

> Dr. Hitzing recently replied on another thread stating that he has some new exciting news. Not sure what it is but he said he would hope to BLOW OUR MINDS haha. That shit better be good haha.


 thanks CVA ...you got a link to the thread by any chance?

----------


## gmonasco

> you got a link to the thread by any chance?


 Here's the post:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=396

I don't think his statement that "Sorry you haven't been blown away by the results, but the results are the results to date. Hope to blow you away in time." indicates that he has something amazing to announce in the near future.  He's just expressing his hopes that things will pan out someday.

----------


## UK_

> Here's the post:
> 
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=396
> 
> I don't think his statement that "Sorry you haven't been blown away by the results, but the results are the results to date. Hope to blow you away in time." indicates that he has something amazing to announce in the near future.  He's just expressing his hopes that things will pan out someday.


 Yeah... he _hopes_ to blow us away - lol.

Honestly, when he talks about 'saving hair' I just feel annoyed for the damn options you have for doing so... PROPECIA lol - I wouldn't touch the stuff - for one... as soon as you come off whatever you retained/regrew you lose within 3 months, couldn't imagine taking an anti-androgen for the next decade or two.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Well before that he, wrote this - "Sorry not to have posted in a bit but I have been quite busy with my paper and with some *exciting new stuff*.
Best to all of you

That was before the "Blow your mind" ha.

Im not sure what the first post means. Can we get the translator again?

----------


## UK_

> Well before that he, wrote this - "Sorry not to have posted in a bit but I have been quite busy with my paper and with some *exciting new stuff*.
> Best to all of you
> 
> That was before the "Blow your mind" ha.
> 
> Im not sure what the first post means. Can we get the translator again?


 Think I might shave my head and sandpaper my scalp... DIY HSC procedure lol.

----------


## HairTalk

Will you be conducting trials on persons who have had hair-transplants, perhaps including to see whether H.S.C. will stimulate growth in scar-tissue?

Thanks.

----------


## gmonasco

> I remember when Intercytex came out claiming their DP cells induced "significant hair growth" in 4 out of 5 patients, but they totally fell on their Phase II trials.


 Therein lies the rub.  "Statistically significant" hair growth nay be a useful data point for medical trials, but only cosmetically significant hair growth means a d*mn thing to any of us.

----------


## UK_

> Therein lies the rub.  "Statistically significant" hair growth nay be a useful data point for medical trials, but only cosmetically significant hair growth means a d*mn thing to any of us.


 Thats right, and Intercytex grew a few dozen fine hairs hardly visible to the naked eye from injecting DP cells, they totally fell, I dont blame the recession, because if any company can come up with the results, survival is not often an issue.

Only time will tell, what is promising is the research conducted by Follica, we still have those stem cells, we dont need to worry about creating/injecting new ones, we just need to identify the specific pathway to promote hair growth again, even if it requires repeat treatments it beats the age-old rubbish we have as options at the moment.  I have not met many people who have lasted longer than a few years on propecia, those that come off lose everything they keep - often worse.

Dr Ziering is right, we are all in this together, we all want results, and in all honesty if someone can produce 57 hairs per sq cm and maintain those results for a period greater than two years... then we will reach the finish line, we will reach it.

----------


## fontanajul

I'm wondering what would be the after effect of going through Histogen injections and then discontinuing use of finasteride. I don't want to be on a pill forever... =/

----------


## UK_

The body has the ability to regenerate, cut off parts of the liver and it often grows back, you know about cutting off the tip of a childs finger etc, we even see such regeneration on a bizarre scale in nature, we just need to find out how to minic these phenomena and reproduce them safely in humans, not hardly an easy task however!

----------


## mlao

> I'm wondering what would be the after effect of going through Histogen injections and then discontinuing use of finasteride. I don't want to be on a pill forever... =/


 When Spencer first interviewed Dr. Naughton she implied that the hair that is regenerated will grow for the length of time it grew originally. So if it did not fall out for 20 years it should last that long again. I have never heard that mentioned again so maybe Dr. Zering can comment. But unless HSC would somehow lower DHT production i would think you would need some kind of
of drug to do that as well. Or repeated injections annually.

----------


## gmonasco

> When Spencer first interviewed Dr. Naughton she implied that the hair that is regenerated will grow for the length of time it grew originally. So if it did not fall out for 20 years it should last that long again.


 It makes sense that if the effect of DHT is cumulative, new hair follicles should not succumb to it until the passage of an equal amount of time.  Probably a longer time, in fact, since testosterone production decreases with age.




> But unless HSC would somehow lower DHT production i would think you would need some kind of drug to do that as well. Or repeated injections annually.


 But people here keep telling us that there will never be a hair loss cure, because such a cure would be a one-time treatment that would kill off the market for repeat application products.

----------


## fontanajul

That's what I was thinking, even though I'm not in any way educated enough on the science to make a comment like that. Ugh I wish I could just fly back home to LA and get my whole head shot up with histogen injections  :Smile:  (I'm kidding... Sort of)

-Max

----------


## UK_

> When Spencer first interviewed Dr. Naughton she implied that the hair that is regenerated will grow for the length of time it grew originally. So if it did not fall out for 20 years it should last that long again. I have never heard that mentioned again so maybe Dr. Zering can comment. But unless HSC would somehow lower DHT production i would think you would need some kind of
> of drug to do that as well. Or repeated injections annually.


 I would love to hear Dr Zierings opinion on this area also, I remember hearing Dr Naughton mention that new hairs would not miniaturize for the same period it took for the previous hairs to minaturize, so if you started balding at 22, the new hairs would last that amount of time.

Perhaps it is not cumulative, but more akin to some type of ticking time-bomb, the 'genetic time-bomb' of hair loss, reason being is that you can be exposed to such androgens for decades before you start balding, and then wham!  You are a NW4 within 18 months.

----------


## gmonasco

> Perhaps it is not cumulative, but more akin to some type of ticking time-bomb, the 'genetic time-bomb' of hair loss, reason being is that you can be exposed to such androgens for decades before you start balding, and then wham!  You are a NW4 within 18 months.


 Actually, men typically start "balding" (in the sense that their hairs are miniaturizing) well before they really start to notice or be concerned about it.  I think the "wham" effect is basically the point where they cross an aesthetic threshold and the continuing hair loss becomes really cosmetically significant at that point.

----------


## Jcm800

> Actually, men typically start "balding" (in the sense that their hairs are miniaturizing) well before they really start to notice or be concerned about it.  I think the "wham" effect is basically the point where they cross an aesthetic threshold and the continuing hair loss becomes really cosmetically significant at that point.


 I tend to agree. I can recall over ten years ago having one hairy hairline, I can remember even then, the first signs of it thinning out. 

I never thought any thing of it, but the last five years-it's started to hit the point that I'm very aware of it. 

It's been very slow, but gradual in my case.

----------


## RichardDawkins

My idea :

HSC is manipulating and resetting your follicles. Therefore your hair will get a fresh start and will be permanent for your lifetime, otherwise the results right now would be not like they are.

THe first picture we saw was very goo and consitant with this idea. They treated 4 areas or so and injected only a really small and insignificant portion of HSC and they got around 100 hairs.

My bet is, that the effect of one injection is like the effect on a pont when you throw a stone in it, the waves around the impact are significant but the loose effect after a while.

I thin most hair develop around the injection side and the further away the less new hair was there.

If it turns out tha this is the permanent cure, nobody would go out of business, because there are always people who need their scars repaired or repair cases who need a transpkant etc etc.

But for Histogen, even if you need only one to three injections over a lifespan, they wont go bancrupt or anything else because bald people are permanent, there will always be bald people.

But even if Histogen would be permanent, i would refresh the injections every five years just to be absolutely safe, thats it.

Cosmetically vs statistically significant : I think Dr Zierig stated that the first results were "cosmetically" significant (100 hairs per 2cm2, even a blind person has to admit that this is cosmetically significant)

I think 2011 will be very very very interesting. And if today some people are still saying "Intercytex failed so will Histogen".... i can only say i doubt that this will fail because NOW people are to a certain point knowing HOW you can kick MPB´s ass for good.

Always remember, humans are born with a number of follicles and they die with the exact amount of follicles.

Today in 2011 i can see only two major problems, one concearning HM and one concearning hair transplants.

1) How to get infinite donor (hair transplant side)
2) How to permanently stop hairloss from progresing and get hair regrow

And now compare those two problems with the problems a hairloss sufferer had 15 years ago. I bet 15 years ago there were more questions then today.

From my simple gutfeeling, the first question depends on the fact how you can get plucking mor efficiant and how to perform a FUE with multiplication.

The tools are all availabe but like a puzzle they have to be combined. I can tell you, i would rather live today with a balding problem then 10 years ago or 20.

Why i am so "optimistic"? Simple because all the things have so far come to the point where i expected them to come. And also this community is not "lazy" any more right now a lot of people take action in their hands and demand docs to experiment which is good.

And lets be honest here, most of the people 10 years ago didnt know anything about stem cells or manipulate ****tails to induce some effect on some cells.

Can you guys remeber who everyone was exited when this Sheep Dolly was cloned? In this time this seemed like "Wow how are they gonna do this" and what do we have now? Artificial organs and iPhones :-)

I am really thankfull that Histogen is conduct their trials (trails i always get this word wrong) in Asia because asia in general is the leading culture in biotechnology.

----------


## UK_

> I tend to agree. I can recall over ten years ago having one hairy hairline, I can remember even then, the first signs of it thinning out. 
> 
> I never thought any thing of it, but the last five years-it's started to hit the point that I'm very aware of it. 
> 
> It's been very slow, but gradual in my case.


 Yeah... I guess so being that even babies can suffer forms of MPB.

----------


## Jcm800

> Yeah... I guess so being that even babies can suffer forms of MPB.


 I was around 25 at the time  :Wink:

----------


## mlao

> But people here keep telling us that there will never be a hair loss cure, because such a cure would be a one-time treatment that would kill off the market for repeat application products.


 I have never bought into the conspiracy theory with drug companies.
If Merck or Pfizer came up with a superior one time cure they would just 
charge for it accordingly. 
However it would probably not be covered by insurance which is a huge source of income for them. No doctor is going to tell a patient that they need a hair loss drug to stay alive. I don't even think the big companies care about curing it. Ten years ago when I started using Propecia there were TV ads for it but you don't see any now. 
Plus it probably didn't help that the minute it came out everyone started buying 5mg Proscar for BPH or generic Finasteride from overseas and splitting the pills up.

----------


## UK_

> I have never bought into the conspiracy theory with drug companies.
> If Merck or Pfizer came up with a superior one time cure they would just 
> charge for it accordingly.


 I think it takes someone to actually be in the field to understand how difficult the process of 'curing' really is; it takes years for any development to make it into the lab, then a decade to market, often longer, especially regarding hair, in which the natural growth cycles will always cause any research to be longitudinal.

----------


## mlao

I think the best chance of a cure right now does come from the likes of smaller companies like Histogen or Aderans. 
Companies like this didn't exist 10 years ago so investors don't have anything to compare it to. 
An investor is probably suspicious of a small company trying to cure hair loss but not a huge pharmaceutical that shows huge profits every year. 
I think the more proof these small companies can present the quicker it might happen.
I also think that even if it wasn't the NW7 to NW1 cure but a huge addition to the products we already use it would be successful.

----------


## UK_

> I think the best chance of a cure right now does come from the likes of smaller companies like Histogen or Aderans. 
> Companies like this didn't exist 10 years ago so investors don't have anything to compare it to. 
> An investor is probably suspicious of a small company trying to cure hair loss but not a huge pharmaceutical that shows huge profits every year. 
> I think the more proof these small companies can present the quicker it might happen.
> I also think that even if it wasn't the NW7 to NW1 cure but a huge addition to the products we already use it would be successful.


 Aderans a small company? lol

I cant even remember what the balding research scene was like 10 years ago, as I was entering high school for the first time lol whether there were similar companies to Histogen, Aderans, Follica or new compounds like Acell and PRP, I am guessing it was a sort of 'dark age' in which researchers were all in the theoretical stage, today we are in developmental stages so hopefully in the near future we may enter production/market stages.

I do remember however headlines such as the WNT7A (gene therapy) growing large quantities of life-long hair in mice, at that time they were just drawing up the plans to have it tested in humans, 5 years on and here we are, and the same goes for Aderans.

Anything that is greater than/can compete against Propecia and Minoxidil is a viable marketable development.

----------


## mlao

> Aderans a small company? lol


 Almost any big drug company makes Aderans look like a corner store!
You can't compare a company that makes wigs, owns hair salons, and a few large chain hair transplant clinics with Pfizer, Merck, or GSK. In the world of investment there is money and there is BIG MONEY!!!

----------


## Sogeking

I don't think we have to worry about the drug companies not wanting the cure to be found.
Because new people are born every day and some of them, during their lifetime, will experience MPB or any other form of alopecia. Not to mention all of us now and most of current users of Propecia, just waiting for a cure. iIt would be an instant financial mega boost.

Take into the account the myopia treatments like Laser eye surgery  :Smile: . They are being offered as a one time treatment  :Smile:  (don't want to go into their efficacies).

Now lets assume Histogen comes and is a succesful tretment, you have to take into the account that its sustainabiliy and additive functions are not thoroughly tested. 

So there will probably be multiple sessions with injections dispersed over larger time period. As to be sure to increase density of the hair over time, or maybe even sustain it if it lasts several years.
I honestly don't care if they offer me valid, efficent, long lasting treatments I'll save money and definitely use them.
Also I don't want to be offensive to Histogen  as being, well, greedy or anything like that, if their treatment does what its supposed to, than by all means they should charge for it.
The waiting is killing me...

----------


## UK_

> I don't think we have to worry about the drug companies not wanting the cure to be found.
> Because new people are born every day and some of them, during their lifetime, will experience MPB or any other form of alopecia. Not to mention all of us now and most of current users of Propecia, just waiting for a cure. iIt would be an instant financial mega boost.
> 
> Take into the account the myopia treatments like Laser eye surgery . They are being offered as a one time treatment  (don't want to go into their efficacies).
> 
> Now lets assume Histogen comes and is a succesful tretment, you have to take into the account that its sustainabiliy and additive functions are not thoroughly tested. 
> 
> So there will probably be multiple sessions with injections dispersed over larger time period. As to be sure to increase density of the hair over time, or maybe even sustain it if it lasts several years.
> I honestly don't care if they offer me valid, efficent, long lasting treatments I'll save money and definitely use them.
> ...


 Yeah, and you wouldn't feel like a 14 year old girl like one does on Propecia, anything that offers a better treatment than having to block androgens would be more than welcome.

----------


## gmonasco

> Histogens lead product application is its Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC), which is a soluble 
> formulation developed as an injectable for hair regrowth. The hair loss market is both large and 
> underserved - hair loss affects over 40 million men and 21 million women in the United States 
> alone, however less than 7% of sufferers currently seek treatment. This is largely due to the 
> ineffectiveness of currently available options such as Rogaine and Propecia. 
> 
> Worldwide revenues in 2008 were reported to be $1.3B for surgical treatments, predominantly 
> hair transplant procedures, $1B for non-prescription treatments such as Rogaine, and $700M for 
> prescription treatments such as Propecia. Histogen sees HSC as a potential category killer, as 
> ...


 http://www.histogen.com/downloads/hi...mary_dec10.pdf

----------


## UK_

> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/hi...mary_dec10.pdf


 Definitely a category killer (and by God a welcomed one).

----------


## UK_

> Now lets assume Histogen comes and is a succesful tretment, you have to take into the account that its sustainabiliy and additive functions are not thoroughly tested. 
> 
> So there will probably be multiple sessions with injections dispersed over larger time period. As to be sure to increase density of the hair over time, or maybe even sustain it if it lasts several years.
> I honestly don't care if they offer me valid, efficent, long lasting treatments I'll save money and definitely use them.
> Also I don't want to be offensive to Histogen  as being, well, greedy or anything like that, if their treatment does what its supposed to, than by all means they should charge for it.
> The waiting is killing me...


 I know HairTalk raised some viable suggestions on the Acell thread regarding the issue of optimism, but I am by nature one of the most negative people you will come across  :Cool: .  But when I look at the likes of Histogen, Aderans, Follica and their research findings, I cannot help but think - "yes okay, there may be bugs with these new biotech treatments, _or indeed maybe none at all_" -but we will fix them, and there is an end in sight.

----------


## doinmyheadin

A question for Dr. Craig Ziering. I read that in the original HSC trials it worked for 85% of people. Im no scientist but if the injections are suppose to produce embryonic like conditions and it works for most people why wouldnt it work for 99.9% of people?

----------


## CVAZBAR

> I know HairTalk raised some viable suggestions on the Acell thread regarding the issue of optimism, but I am by nature one of the most negative people you will come across .  But when I look at the likes of Histogen, Aderans, Follica and their research findings, I cannot help but think - "yes okay, there may be bugs with these new biotech treatments, _or indeed maybe none at all_" -but we will fix them, and there is an end in sight.


 Very true, I just wish it was NOW. I'm tired and feel like giving up hope. I'm at a point where I can't believe shit until I see something work for everyone. Can't get excited anymore but I hope the end is near.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Tssssss all i know is one thing in a few years everyone here will be like this

"**** this shit why didnt i invest in those companys damn me"

You wanna bet?

----------


## nature

> Uh, no.  You cannot simply assume that repeated applications of a given treatment will produce exactly the same results as previous applications.  That is something which has to be established through testing.


 But,if that is truth than we could get full density, that means NW 1.

A question for Dr. Craig Ziering.
What did you think when you said 50+ injections.Does it mean that you are going to inject them all at 2cm2 treatment area or something else?
Are you going to set clinics in some places of Europe earlier (2013.-2015.)?

----------


## gmonasco

> The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.


 We're coming up on four weeks -- hope to hear something (good!) soon.

----------


## Purple Glow

> Histogen's HSC study showed a statistically significant increase in the number of terminal hairs and hair thickness at 12 weeks. At the five month timepoint there was a decrease in hairs in a number of patients, but a significant increase again at 12 months, with the number of new hairs again reaching statistical significance at one year. There were approximately 25 new hairs per 0.1cc injection and the treatment effect  was seen within 2mm of the injection site.


 For visualization purposes, I went around looking a common household objects to find something that is about the same size as the test area.  2 square millimeters is roughly the size of the diameter of a grounding pin on a 3-prong electrical plug in the United States.  If you don't know what that is, here is a photo.

http://www.raygirling.com/ryobi/images/fig01.gif

In that area, 25 new hairs were seen at one year.

----------


## cannonball

> For visualization purposes, I went around looking a common household objects to find something that is about the same size as the test area.  2 square millimeters is roughly the size of the diameter of a grounding pin on a 3-prong electrical plug in the United States.  If you don't know what that is, here is a photo.
> 
> http://www.raygirling.com/ryobi/images/fig01.gif
> 
> In that area, 25 new hairs were seen at one year.


 Oh, but I think its rather 2 square cm, which should be around the third of a square inch...

----------


## KeepHoping

I think that part of the plug would be one sqare centimeter right?

----------


## Purple Glow

> I think that part of the plug would be one sqare centimeter right?


 No, here is an image of one square centimeter proportional to a pencil.
http://www.mathsisfun.com/measure/images/square-cm.jpg

As you can see, that box is much larger than a grounding pin on a 3-prong plug.

----------


## RichardDawkins

So then, whats the verdict here :-)

Good or Bad. But how did you guys come on 25 hairs, i heared something about 100 hairs :-)

----------


## gmonasco

I think all the speculation about hair counts is moot until we know:

1)  That HSC is actually producing new hairs (rather than merely coaxing existing hairs out of the telogen phase).

2)  Whether the effect is compoundable with larger or repeated dosages.

----------


## Purple Glow

> So then, whats the verdict here :-)
> 
> Good or Bad. But how did you guys come on 25 hairs, i heared something about 100 hairs :-)


 I got 25 hairs from a direct quote from Dr. Z that I quoted in post #193 of this thread.

----------


## mlao

> I think all the speculation about hair counts is moot until we know:
> 
> 1)  That HSC is actually producing new hairs (rather than merely coaxing existing hairs out of the telogen phase).
> 
> 2)  Whether the effect is compoundable with larger or repeated dosages.


 Thumbs up to this statement!

----------


## UK_

> I got 25 hairs from a direct quote from Dr. Z that I quoted in post #193 of this thread.


 Was it not 84.5 hairs after 12 months?  This in an area of 1.46cm_2_ I believe.

Found this on their website:

_Histogen named a Top 300 Startup by fundedIDEAS for 2011! Company successfully completes Series A financing round, and opens Series B, with Phase I / II trial beginning this Spring. 

http://www.fundedideas.com/index.html_

Congratulations guys!

----------


## CAlex

Yes UK you are basically correct. an increase of about 84 hairs in a 1.47 cm/2 area was the result in phase 1.

179 hairs baseline to 263 hairs after 1 year. It was basically a 47% increase in new hairs but the studied posted a 70 plus % increase because histogen took into account existing hairs increase in thickness etc.

The only thing in terms of percentages and numbers  we need to take from phase 1 is that there was a good result from a *SAFETY* trial and this method holds much promise.
Phase II will include much more patients in the study with more emphasis on dosages and frequency of shots etc.

Phase II numbers will definitely be much more meaningful even if they still produce only the same hair increase as phase 1. It will show the ability to reproduce the results over a much more extensive patient base and recipient area.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> For visualization purposes, I went around looking a common household objects to find something that is about the same size as the test area.  2 square millimeters is roughly the size of the diameter of a grounding pin on a 3-prong electrical plug in the United States.  If you don't know what that is, here is a photo.
> 
> http://www.raygirling.com/ryobi/images/fig01.gif
> 
> In that area, 25 new hairs were seen at one year.


 Excellent idea Purp.

----------


## gmonasco

> Was it not 84.5 hairs after 12 months?  This in an area of 1.46cm_2_ I believe.


 I think that number was an extrapolation from what Dr. Ziering said, which was that "an average of roughly 100 new hairs were seen per 2cm2 treatment area in the HSC sites."

----------


## Purple Glow

1.47 cm/2 is roughly the size of a dime.

----------


## Purple Glow

Personally I believe the worst case scenario with HSC will be that it permanently stops hair loss and gives you diffuse coverage that you can either keep tight or grow out and add some hair loss concealer like nanogen to add volume.  I think that alone would be a major step forward from using rogaine and / or propecia every day.

----------


## RichardDawkins

This is a very good Worst Case scenario in my books :-)

I would give some additional thoughts. I believe that a hairloss stop is pretty much the case even in this "early" results this seems to backup this claim.

What i think is, that it will work better on your vertex area, because in this area it seems propecia works also better then in the frontal regions.

So the worst case remains

1) hairloss stop but not your original density so additional hair transplant and you are finished for good

I think this is something which everyone could accept.

Dont get me wrong i really belive in Histogen i really do but i wouldnt be crushed if this "worst case" scenario would happen, because primary its important to stop hairloss at all :-)

----------


## Gubter_87

Come on guys - I know it's easy to get lost in wishful thinking. But I would say that the worst case scenario is rather that it turns out that Histogen causes cancer and does not grow as much hair as it was intially believed to do.
I too have high hopes for this - but there's no point in kidding ourselves about the worst case scenario. There are still a lot of things that can go wrong.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Oh come on the cancer thing is so 80s :-)

----------


## Bakez

> This is a very good Worst Case scenario in my books :-)
> 
> I would give some additional thoughts. I believe that a hairloss stop is pretty much the case even in this "early" results this seems to backup this claim.
> 
> What i think is, that it will work better on your vertex area, because in this area it seems propecia works also better then in the frontal regions.
> 
> So the worst case remains
> 
> 1) hairloss stop but not your original density so additional hair transplant and you are finished for good
> ...


 Please stop posting. Your constant diatribe about how everything is going to work perfectly and ridiculous expectations based on pretty much nothing is really quite annoying.

The worst case scenario is that the initial results are not repeated and it has long term side effects that we dont know about.

----------


## HairTalk

I'll chime in with the bandwagon of cautious hopefuls. Histogen's H.S.C. didn't fall on its ass straight out of the gate, and that's a good thing, but it's only early in 2011. The sole results we all can talk of still were released just during 2010; there are not yet very many data around about the compund.

Just how safe and efficacious is H.S.C.? Will it promote neoplasia? Let's hope not (from what I've read of what the compound consists of, I don't think it will, but that hardly means that nothing, including tumor-formation, can go wrong). Will it really stop balding? Reverse it? In which areas of the scalp? Will it help for just a few years? If so, will "booster doses" help, or will it do no further good in treated patients?

There are many questions yet unanswered. We have reason to be hopeful, but we ought to refrain from celebrating over _anything_, at this point  H.S.C., ACell, InterCytex, Aderans. All these studies are in relatively early stages; it's foolish to begin rejoicing, already.

----------


## UK_

> There are many questions yet unanswered. We have reason to be hopeful, but we ought to refrain from celebrating over _anything_, at this point  H.S.C., ACell, InterCytex, Aderans. All these studies are in relatively early stages; it's foolish to begin rejoicing, already.


 Intercytex?  Have they started trials for hair loss now?

----------


## UK_

> Please stop posting. Your constant diatribe about how everything is going to work perfectly and ridiculous expectations based on pretty much nothing is really quite annoying.
> 
> The worst case scenario is that the initial results are not repeated and it has long term side effects that we dont know about.


 lol@diatribe.

I'm gettin' real tired aswel of Richard Dawkins/Stevie.Dee's blind over-inflated drugged enthusiasm, I've a feeling one day he might be forced to bite a very hard bullet...Rememer Shh?  lol.

----------


## HairTalk

> Intercytex?  Have they started trials for hair loss now?


 I know they dropped out of it (hair-multiplication research), but I thought they were starting back up — I could be wrong about the latter.

http://www.***************/hair-loss...ning-research/

From the above Web site: "While they appeared to have good management and promising preliminary results, their subsequent Phase II testing on humans failed to produce cosmetically significant hair regrowth."

This sort of thing happens over and over. I'm not suggesting we thus should figure nothing ever will work out, but that it likely would be healthy to somewhat curb our collective enthusiasm.

*Why the hell can't one insert U.R.L.s into one's messages in this forum? It's absurd we should be disallowed to cite sources on a site such as this.

----------


## HairTalk

The next hit in a Google search:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/03/prweb3774184.htm

----------


## mlao

Aderans bought the research that Intercytex developed.

----------


## UK_

> The next hit in a Google search:
> 
> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/03/prweb3774184.htm


 lol... well, if it fails we still have this:

http://www.amazon.com/Regeneration-S.../dp/B000PM93FQ

Cells only form into certain tissue if they grow within the scaffold of the construct they plan to develop into, thus you can only grow follicles if you have a follicle scaffold drained of all cells to leave only the scaffold structure, (as follicles are organs) stem cells, growth factors may then be introduced and develop into full follicles. Stem cells from the back of the scalp would need to be used to take advantage of the fact that they are neutral to the impact of androgens, the hairs must then be planted into the scalp.  They have adopted this concept for years here to grow new hearts and other organs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/0...ethras/?hpt=C2

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...rs-986842.html

----------


## CVAZBAR

Wish I was 10 yrs younger.

----------


## Gubter_87

> Oh come on the cancer thing is so 80s :-)


 You obviously don't really have a clue what you're talking about here so I'll give you a quick run through. What histogen are actually trying out is to inject WNT-proteins, which stimulate stem-cell differentiation, into the scalp. And obviously the first thing that comes to mind when interfering with such a delicate system is an increased risk of cancer.

Now, Dr. Ziering has said that the initial results have showed no major side effects, which is good news, but that does not mean there is still no risk or that this might not backfire anytime soon.

You are obviously optimistic about future treatments like histogen and A-cell, which is good. But right now I think you just might be spreading a bit to much unsubstantiated hope to people on this forum. Hopefully both histogen and A-cell will turn out to be very usefull treatments in the end. But that does not mean that ignoring the possible backdraws that comes with the treatments is a good idea.

----------


## UK_

Exactly, shh also signalled new hair growth, but all animal subjects went on to form tumours.

----------


## Sogeking

So the guy is optimisic. It is his right, you know. The only worry here for optimistic people is if there expectations aren't met. So thats why we're here.
At first I was very optimistic about Histogen and its potential, but after some time I've became a sceptic. With every possible treatment not just Histogen.


I do think that in 2-3 years we will know for the most part if these cutting edge/future treatments are viable for last stages of testing and distribution.

----------


## RichardDawkins

> Exactly, shh also signalled new hair growth, but all animal subjects went on to form tumours.


 Ok do you have links for those claims? I guess not

I really dont care if you guys have problems with my "positive" attitude, i rally dont because there is always a front of people who just want to enjoy their self pittying.

Its funny when even repair patients are more happy in life then some "The whole world is bleak" guys lurking around.

And should i really discuss with someone like UK_ who didnt even know anything about Intercytex or Bakez who cycles all hairloss boards to repeat the one question "Everything Failed" all over again?

And iam not optimistic (even if it would be my right, but clinic shills cant grasp this) iam more realistic. Just realistic and rational.

You know if you let dictate guys like UK_ or Bakez what you have to be, then you seriously need more then just hairs.

As you may have read, there is actually one patient who got plucked hairs transplanted into his scar and UK_ just ignores that with his Cole statement " Show me the science"

Well its difficult to show people like you the science when you close your eyes and als trolling around.

You said in forums you never take anything personal, but you do because you have to use stuff like " RichardDawkins/Stevie.Dee bla bla crap" what does this contribute? Exactly nothing.

Here are some nice efforts even without MYSELF answering anything at first, how UK_ (an obvious troll) tries to destroy a normal thread :

1) Troll acting number one : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4604

And guess what, who is the first person to answer UK_ postings? Right its Bakez (a system?)

2) Spoken like a secret clinic rep http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...?t=4604&page=2

You know to give the impression that Acell didnt work and people should get normal hairtransplants instead.

3) Nobody can explain how, HOW Acell works : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...?t=4604&page=3

Well didnt people actually explain how a ECM works, that it keep tissue from healing and instead forces it to create normal tissue without scarring?

Also this site is interesting because he uses the same tactic someone would use to discredit special clinis, he uses the indirect/direct thing " Some docs from NY who...."

Also further down you get a grip of what he is doing here, only trolling because statements like "baaaaaahhaaaaa how many times have we heard this" are only stupid and they distract from the case itself.

*Just look at how this whole thread turned out, at first there were serious and matter related questions, but then UK_ got into and everything turned into a mess where the case itself wasnt the main thing anymore :-)*

And you guys keep attack me for my "positive" thinking?

Also when he gets outed here, he uses the fog tactic to draw away attention from him, as you can see in the last posting.

Thats why i didnt response in the beginning, i just wanted to see and later show people here, how threads turned out when guys like UK_ are involved.

I wouldnt wonder if he is another HairRobinHood Account to annoy people. You know guys scepticism is good, if its on a realistic level but mindless destroying and downtalking everything is just utterly stupid.

Everyone who is interested in HSC or ECM should just gather himself informations and form his own point of view here.

I remain of course realistic optimistic because its my right, and if some 23 year old Bakez has a problem with that (i can understand you to a certain point because you are somehow young and desperate etc but you wont have to live your 30s being bald, that is highly unlikely, you can beliv this or not, its your decision) well then they have to live with that.

----------


## Purple Glow

> Please stop posting. Your constant diatribe about how everything is going to work perfectly and ridiculous expectations based on pretty much nothing is really quite annoying.
> 
> The worst case scenario is that the initial results are not repeated and it has long term side effects that we dont know about.


 I'm not worried about long-term side effects with this product.  I have not read anything about the mice getting tumors from HSC.  There were no side effects seen in the test so far, and this product isn't something that is an artificial implant, nor has to constantly be applied daily.  Its injected once, and then its just simply your hair.

Results could go one of three ways.

1.  They may not be repeated.
2.  They may be repeated exactly.
3.  They could get better at using this technology and improve results.

Either 2 or 3 is acceptable, imo.

----------


## Purple Glow

From a business and marketing standpoint, the fact that Histogen has stated they want to focus on this being an inexpensive treatment that the masses have access to tells us they are very confident in the product.  

If you have a product you think is not that great and is something people will sour on eventually, you don't waste your time worrying about access to the product.  

However, if you truly believe the product is going to be something everyone wants, you aim to make it as affordable as you can because where you make the real big money is on volume sales.  They seem to be expecting there will be a lot of demand.

----------


## Purple Glow

Also keep in mind Phase I was a low-dose test to just look for side effects.  The fact that Phase I showed an average gain of 84 hairs per 1.47cm2 was gravy.   That's what you want to see in a winning product - results that exceed expectations.  I think we should be optimistic.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Why be optimistic? This are only 84 hairs. So where is the science? :-)

Just kidding. You are right. HSC did right now win compared to Propecia and Minox because all of them or lets make it more accurate slowed down hairloss (HSC seems to stop it instead of slowing it down)

And as a bonus with HSC hair did regrow, something missing in Fin and Minox.

Also you are right, mass market is the key here.

Hey Iron.Man another screencap for you

----------


## nature

> Also keep in mind Phase I was a low-dose test to just look for side effects.  The fact that Phase I showed an average gain of 84 hairs per 1.47cm2 was gravy.   That's what you want to see in a winning product - results that exceed expectations.  I think we should be optimistic.


 With increasing dosage HSC would probably get better results,not worser.It was low dosage of HSC on a spot with thinning hair (preclinical safety trials).Question is,what results can we expect on completely bald spots?So if they can get these results (50-80 new hairs per 1.47 cm2)on bald spots whit every new injection then we could get almost "normal" density.That is optimism!
But if we expect that HSC would stop our progress hairloss on some time (2-5 years)for one treatment and could get us some more density then i think that is very realistic.

----------


## Jcm800

UK_ is very good at jumping on a thread and attacking people on it!

He jumped on the TRX2 thread and called us all 'retards' a couple of weeks back, and let rip!

In fairness, bar the retards comment I feel he probably had some good points about it tho.

----------


## UK_

> Ok do you have links for those claims? I guess not.


 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9...?dopt=Citation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9...?dopt=Citation

_"Overexpression of Shh can induce BCCs in mice."_

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16389455

_"Abnormal activation of the Hedgehog pathway has been demonstrated in a variety of human tumors, including those of the skin, brain, lung and digestive tract. Hedgehog pathway activity in these tumors is required for cancer cell proliferation and tumor growth. "_

Here you go you, next time before you decide in typing out another SOUL DESTROYING post like that do the research yourself.




> As you may have read, there is actually one patient who got plucked hairs transplanted into his scar and UK_ just ignores that with his Cole statement " Show me the science".


 Still beating yourself up over that?  Seriously, let it go, its boring now.  I told you before, your gonna most likely have to bite a tough bullet in the near future if these "revolutionary" biotech cures bite the dust - have fun talking to me when it happens  :Cool: .




> Here are some nice efforts even without MYSELF answering anything at first, how UK_ (an obvious troll) tries to destroy a normal thread :
> 
> 1) Troll acting number one : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4604
> 
> And guess what, who is the first person to answer UK_ postings? Right its Bakez (a system?)
> 
> 2) Spoken like a secret clinic rep http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...?t=4604&page=2
> 
> You know to give the impression that Acell didnt work and people should get normal hairtransplants instead.
> ...


 Wow... you really did go to some trouble here lol.  How sad.




> Just look at how this whole thread turned out, at first there were serious and matter related questions, but then UK_ got into and everything turned into a mess where the case itself wasnt the main thing anymore :-)".
> 
> I wouldnt wonder if he is another HairRobinHood Account to annoy people. You know guys scepticism is good, if its on a realistic level but mindless destroying and downtalking everything is just utterly stupid.


 I think you are just beating yourself up over the fact that I know you are the user *stevie.dee* on hairsite, its an obvious one really - ye both have the same deluded fluffy-brained views about the promise of all these revolutionary biotech treatments.  How on EARTH can you accuse me of being a fake/repeat account? LOL  I can assure you, I am not, and I am certainly not "Iron_man" as you keep suggesting.  Ask youself how many such treatments for the likes of cancer, heart disease and liver disease have gone through the same process of start-up, trial and failure, even in phase III.  You're banking on a ver very very very big outcome on a small shred of hope, seriously, thats the reality - like it or lump it.

And please, can you keep your damn posts within the 1 paragraph limit.

----------


## RichardDawkins

First of all, even with knowing iam Stevie.Dee you are really late. Everyone knows and nobody cares for nicknames. But keep on put your effort in nicknames it will make your life easier...i guess.

To your studies :

1) 1997
2) Mice
3) CAN and WILL are two different things
4) Also it states clearly that it is not the only or solely factor, but you missed to quote that.

Soul Destroying? What are you talking about?

Yes iam still talking about this scar patient because you keep glueing at this

Dr Cole&#180;s statement is accurate stuff. As long as you stick with that, i will stick with this patient. End of Story

No i didnt get in trouble quoting you or show links to your discussion style, i just wanted to show what people here should expect from someone like you. Its not sad at all, as long as it keep people think for themselves and not fall for an obvious clinic rep who remains anonymous.

Nobody cares for alternative nicknames from myself actually, but people do care for some trolls who jump on everything promising and destroy it. And you showed us exactly this kind of impulsive childish behaviour. Registered in february and almost all of your postings contain attacks, downtalking of new ideas, insults to people, like using the word retard.

It is in fact pretty obivous that your agenda is a foul one. You jump on every thread which involves new stuff to attack it. But the only time you did not was in the "Germans created artificial follicle" one. Well if i would guess i say its because those things wont run your clinic out of business so soon, but Acell or Histogen could.

And then i think, hmm Acell has not yet been approved in europe, so its highly unlikely that european clinics are happy with patients asking for an Acell treatment, so they are vivid in downtalking this.

I saw this on some european hairloss boards, which was vers strange at first but then it was just like we should expect it to finally pan out.

No i will write my postings like i wanna write em live with that because i also accept your "god damn" postings as they are.

I think you really have a problem with people being positive in life right :-) thats your problem not mine. I think we have all the reasons in the world to look into a bright future.

----------


## UK_

> First of all, even with knowing iam Stevie.Dee you are really late. Everyone knows and nobody cares for nicknames. But keep on put your effort in nicknames it will make your life easier...i guess.
> .


 But that's not my bloody point!  You harp and harp and blabber on about how I am someone else in a disguised account, you have accused me so far of being atleast three other people, you have accused me of representing some clinic, that I am here, on my own in all my glory to destroy the entire face of Acell research.

ARE YOU F***** SERIOUS?




> To your studies :
> 
> 1) 1997
> 2) Mice
> 3) CAN and WILL are two different things
> 4) Also it states clearly that it is not the only or solely factor, but you missed to quote that.


 What has the date got to do with it?  Seriously?  In this context, the plausability of the data/study is not affected in any such way by the date of the study.  *If I injected your brain with SHH signalling proteins, you will have the same outcome as if I did it in 1967.*  I cannot believe you can actually type out that post and not realise that?




> Soul Destroying? What are you talking about?
> .


 Unremittingly monotonous.




> Dr Cole´s statement is accurate stuff..


 YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

And PLEASE PLEASE can you shorten your posts?

----------


## RichardDawkins

No way, you are not that important to actually destroy the Acell research, actually you are not even a grain of sand in the huge gears of research, you are more like some funny person who needs attention and is heavily annoyed when people not fall into desperate and depressed state of minds. Yes iam positive, whats your problem with that.

You know why boards exist? Correct that people can share different opinions, and i made my opinions clear, so do you to a certain point, when we consider repeating one sentence all over again to be a valid argument.

Yes of course i said to you that you are different persons, to show you that its just not relevant in his discussion about Acell or Histogen (you started this nonsense with StevieDee etc and it just backfired) 

Oh the date btw has something to do because you discredit the study about plucking hairs with exact the same things i did to yours :-) And again you outed yourself as a troll (not only because of you broken Caps Lock Button)

If there is no science behind, why didnt other docs comment on this matter so far? Only Dr Cole and he is quiet right now.

I really like your efforts to sound educated, but in the end you come up as an average troll who lost his temper.

Next time you quote me, do it right, i didnt say Dr Cole is right, i say as long as you stick with this old statement of him, i will stick to the patient with plucked hairs in his scar.

I say Dr Coles statement is not accurate nor is it an honest one because he did not back his easy said claims up. And he never commented on this matter again, so this shows me, that he has no interest in back up this claim anymore, or otherwise he wouldnt use Acell as a PRP therapy etc.

I am very sorry that your Acell Destroying depressed point of view has shattered like a mirror falling from the third floor. But thats the fact here, Dr Cole said it doesnt work, but one patient said it did work. So the best (for your position) is to admit 1 : 1 (if you dont wanna lose your face)

I wont shorten my postings because sometimes its very good to fully express what you think in a certain situation. Unless Dr Cole didnt prove to us, that it didnt work, his statement remains an hasty early one without fully get the facts right.

Why dont you just ask for pictures instead of poisoning all Acel threads? Are you to proud to ask for pictures or more informations?

Anyway just explain to me, why other clinics and docs keep experimenting with Acell ( you said this is not working) but why are they experimenting with this then? And its not only a hand full of docs it seems to me at least that there are more and more willing to use it.

Why is that? Can you explain this? Also why is it that big names use it right now? They even adopt this faster, then some docs switched from FUT to FUE.

I am actually not turning in circles here, i really wanna know how you can explain these things. I really dont take your attacks or whatever it is too personal, it amuses me in some way, because the more i have to think about some things like Acell and Histogen, the more you can see whats nonsense and whats realistic, because you really work with that and you do research yourself.

You cant compare a brain with hairs or so.A brain is much much much much more complex then a hair. Also the scale is another one.

----------


## Bakez

> No way, you are not that important to actually destroy the Acell research, actually you are not even a grain of sand in the huge gears of research, you are more like some funny person who needs attention and is heavily annoyed when people not fall into desperate and depressed state of minds. Yes iam positive, whats your problem with that.
> 
> You know why boards exist? Correct that people can share different opinions, and i made my opinions clear, so do you to a certain point, when we consider repeating one sentence all over again to be a valid argument.
> 
> Yes of course i said to you that you are different persons, to show you that its just not relevant in his discussion about Acell or Histogen (you started this nonsense with StevieDee etc and it just backfired) 
> 
> Oh the date btw has something to do because you discredit the study about plucking hairs with exact the same things i did to yours :-) And again you outed yourself as a troll (not only because of you broken Caps Lock Button)
> 
> If there is no science behind, why didnt other docs comment on this matter so far? Only Dr Cole and he is quiet right now.
> ...


 What is your point? Seriously?

----------


## RichardDawkins

That its very boring to read all the time depressing stuff only for the sake of downtalking something. Especially when it comes from guys who hijack all the New Invention threads and come up with one statement that has not been talked about anymore.

Also it is very very "stupid" to attack people because they are more optimistic then your average depressed hairloss sufferer.

But hey why dont you two guys share your Email adresses, so that you can switch mails with all the negative stuff :-)

You guys can talk as much negative stuf as you like it wont stop the progress

----------


## UK_

> No way, you are not that important to actually destroy the Acell research, actually you are not even a grain of sand in the huge gears of research, you are more like some funny person who needs attention and is heavily annoyed when people not fall into desperate and depressed state of minds. Yes iam positive, whats your problem with that..


 So then, why on earth do you keep stating that I am here to do just that?  You have just answered your own question :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .  On numerous occasions now you have accused me of being here to 'conspire' against the success of such treatments.  I have been trying to convince you of how crazy an assumption that really is, I merely stated that Dr Cole's critique was accurate and correct, to which you have finally come to terms with.  Well done :Cool: .  Took a while but we got there in the end.




> You know why boards exist? Correct that people can share different opinions, and i made my opinions clear


 So what is your point?  lol - if boards are here to for us to openly discuss opinions and matters regarding happenings in reality, why on earth do you feel the need to sledgehammer every last one of my comments? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> I am very sorry that your Acell Destroying depressed point of view has shattered like a mirror falling from the third floor. But thats the fact here, Dr Cole said it doesnt work, but one patient said it did work. So the best (for your position) is to admit 1 : 1 (if you dont wanna lose your face)


 How on earth has my "_Acell destroying depressed point of view_" shattered like a mirror?  (1) I do not maintain a "depressed point of view" I merely stated that Dr Cole's statement was an accurate one, that is what this entire discussion is about, I have also merely pointed out that we cannot get too optimistic about HSC because we all know what happend with SHH...

I think people (especially myself) are getting very bord of your long dreary posts, please kindly shorten them to one paragraph, I dont mean to patronize (lol) but learn how to conflate your argument into structured paragraphs please.




> I say Dr Coles statement is not accurate )


 Make your mind up - for Gods sake - do you think it is an accurate statement or not?  Obviously IT IS because there is NO EVIDENCE to prove contrary, which is why if you read my INITIAL comment, I used the term _REMAINS ACCURATE_.

IT REMAINS ACCURATE

IT REMAINS ACCURATE

IT REMAINS ACCURATE




> Anyway just explain to me, why other clinics and docs keep experimenting with Acell ( you said this is not working) )


 This STILL has no bearing on Dr Coles comment, IT REMAINS AN ACCURATE ONE - please for the love of the mother of all Gods of the heavens UNDERSTAND THAT DR COLES COMMENT - NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WISH TO TELL YOURSELF -REMAINS ACCURATE.



There could be a number of reasons why Dr Cole hasn't posted yet, he could be saving a cat stuck up a tree, but I highly doubt his reason for not posting lately is the unbearable embarrassment he will face due to the shocking, awe-inspiring current progress made by the researchers studying the use of Acell.

*Conclusion*

Nothing you can say will refute Dr Coles comment, no amount of _"oh this surgeon believes in this" "oh that surgeon has achieved that"_ will suffice to refute that comment.

Try as you might, you will fail.

P.S.  I think the term is 'lose face', and with all due respect, I couldn't care less about my 'status' in the eyes of others regarding my comments on this site  :Wink: .

----------


## UK_

> That its very boring to read all the time depressing stuff only for the sake of downtalking something. Especially when it comes from guys who hijack all the New Invention threads and come up with one statement that has not been talked about anymore.
> 
> Also it is very very "stupid" to attack people because they are more optimistic then your average depressed hairloss sufferer.
> 
> But hey why dont you two guys share your Email adresses, so that you can switch mails with all the negative stuff :-)
> 
> You guys can talk as much negative stuf as you like it wont stop the progress


 Mr Happy Tyrant.

----------


## KeepHoping

It's a shame people argue on these threads instead of actually having a civilized discourse, we are here because we are dealing with hair loss, we are looking for a solution to our problem so lets work together....

That aside, I wanted to ask you Dr. Ziering, if WNT proteins seem to be the golden ticket here as a growth factor for hair growth why do you think doctors haven't tried to incorporate WNT proteins into their PRP solutions as a growth factor.  Does that kind of work require an FDA clearance?  Second, will Histogen post the pictures of the 2 year results from the first safety trail?  You mentioned earlier that they had still retained all the hair two years post procedure, if so that's incredible.  Finally, was there some type of small pre phase 1 trail that is going to be put up as well?  I'm very excited for your research and results and I believe this could be the answer for many people dealing with hairloss.

Thank you in advance.

----------


## UK_

> It's a shame people argue on these threads instead of actually having a civilized discourse, we are here because we are dealing with hair loss, we are looking for a solution to our problem so lets work together....


 You try getting a point across to this guy - DHT will be the least of your worries.

----------


## mlao

> It's a shame people argue on these threads instead of actually having a civilized discourse, we are here because we are dealing with hair loss, we are looking for a solution to our problem so lets work together....
> 
> That aside, I wanted to ask you Dr. Ziering, if WNT proteins seem to be the golden ticket here as a growth factor for hair growth why do you think doctors haven't tried to incorporate WNT proteins into their PRP solutions as a growth factor.  Does that kind of work require an FDA clearance?  Second, will Histogen post the pictures of the 2 year results from the first safety trail?  You mentioned earlier that they had still retained all the hair two years post procedure, if so that's incredible.  Finally, was there some type of small pre phase 1 trail that is going to be put up as well?  I'm very excited for your research and results and I believe this could be the answer for many people dealing with hairloss.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


 Yeah it would be great if Dr. Zering could ignore some of the infighting and answer questions from some of the less vocal forum members.

----------


## UK_

> Yeah it would be great if Dr. Zering could ignore some of the infighting and answer questions from some of the less vocal forum members.


 We should just have a separate thread for all our arguments lol. :Big Grin: 

Can the moderator not delete some of our posts to clear it up a little?

----------


## CVAZBAR

C'mon guys, I understand people have differences and you argue here and there but you guys are ****ing up the threads. You guys should just privately contact each other and maybe put on some gloves and beat each other up. Then Ill probably go watch  :Big Grin:  haha.

----------


## RichardDawkins

UK_ you shouldnt use too much of those LOL and Smileys it makes you seem to people like a total naive kid. And to a certain point it is really embarrassing me and maybe other people here. I think if some mods would delete stuff here, your counter would decrease more then hairloss on a NW7 guy, thats for sure.

Anyway using lol and smiley seems very ridicolous to me, you should stop with this its painful to read.I am actually more interested in seeing those promised resuls after four weeks, when it was said some time ago. Nope i dont agree with Dr Cole, never said that. You interpret to much. Well i did not sledgehammer your "arguments" i only show my perspective. Because iam not one of those "Yeah lets all be sad guys who use Smileys and LOL but in the night i cry bitter tears because i loose hair"

Even if i dont like Iron.Man he had give THE most accurate statement till now. "That the current generation of hairtransplants (follicle planting) is just a Pre Step to the infinite donor (hair multiplication what people generally think it is)" You can say that it took some generations of redefining hair transplants to get to a point where infinite Donor is actually possible.

And if you analyse it from a medical standpoint, the procedure or technique never changes but the performance does. First you had chunks of flesh in combination with doll hair plugs. After that you redefine the second step to get micrografts. At some point, someone had the idea to harvest the hair not in flesh chunks, instead just "stance" them out of the donor area (first generation problem Shotgun holes).

Then at some point in time FUE was developed without those huge shot gun holes. One thing which occured during several FUE transplants even in the past was, that sometimes in the donor area the follicle or more precisely the hair grew back as if it wasnt harvested. And now i can certainly say we are close at the brink of a changing future because now there are ambitions to make this extra ordinary thing called regrow, to a more or less standard procedure.

You just have to ask yourself the question " Why do grafts survive even if you maybe hit them hard and transect them"? the key is in fact the tissue with the genetic material which surrounds the hair (i mean the hair as a result and not the follicle itself only the visible hair). Also it is possible not to extract the whole hair and follicle STRUCTURES and provide hair regrow in the donor area with this technique.

The worst part here is, that Dr Cole in fact has some key elements for this to work, but i think he needs a little bit of motivation. Just remember, he uses his CIT by extracting follicles but not as deep like the normal FUE , also he witnessed new blood vessels after he uses Acell on this area.

So now just put all your hatred for my persona aside for one second and think this through.Try to imagine what would happen if you not stance out the whole follicle and his structure but instead you extract only the vital parts for hair to survive (tissue etc) and use an ECM for recipient and donor side and also "feed" the plucked or harvested hair with it.

What do you personally believe will happen? Thats a legitimate question, what do you personally believe? And then you will see why Dr Coles statement is more sad in a way for hairloss sufferers then it is accurate. I think the sad aspect of unused potential outweights everything else.

----------


## UK_

> UK_ you shouldnt use too much of those LOL and Smileys it makes you seem to people like a total naive kid. And to a certain point it is really embarrassing me and maybe other people here. I think if some mods would delete stuff here, your counter would decrease more then hairloss on a NW7 guy, thats for sure....


 
When you stop blabbering on about whatever point it is you are trying to make, ill stop using icons  :Big Grin: k?

By the way... What IS your point?




> Nope i dont agree with Dr Cole, never said that. You interpret to much,


 
Well, you did call it "_accurate stuff_" how else am I supposed to interpret it? lol.

Your quote:




> Dr Cole&#180;s statement is accurate stuff...


 What on earth?  Make up your bloody mind Stevie.Dee.




> Well i did not sledgehammer your "arguments" i only show my perspective....


 So why do you have a problem with literally EVERYTHING I say on these forums?  Why do you have an issue with me agreeing with Dr Coles statement? LOL :Big Grin: 

I did not come and talk to you, you came and decided to quote/respond to me, so you are the one who is attacking my position on Acell, I asked you to prove my position wrong, which you failed to do so... so what on earth else do you want from me? :Cool: 

Seriously:  What do you want?  and What is the point of your posts?




> Even if i dont like Iron.Man he had give THE most accurate statement till now. "That the current generation of hairtransplants (follicle planting) is just a Pre Step to the infinite donor (hair multiplication what people generally think it is)" You can say that it took some generations of redefining hair transplants to get to a point where infinite Donor is actually possible.
> 
> And if you analyse it from a medical standpoint, the procedure or technique never changes but the performance does. First you had chunks of flesh in combination with doll hair plugs. After that you redefine the second step to get micrografts. At some point, someone had the idea to harvest the hair not in flesh chunks, instead just "stance" them out of the donor area (first generation problem Shotgun holes).
> 
> Then at some point in time FUE was developed without those huge shot gun holes. One thing which occured during several FUE transplants even in the past was, that sometimes in the donor area the follicle or more precisely the hair grew back as if it wasnt harvested. And now i can certainly say we are close at the brink of a changing future because now there are ambitions to make this extra ordinary thing called regrow, to a more or less standard procedure.
> 
> You just have to ask yourself the question " Why do grafts survive even if you maybe hit them hard and transect them"? the key is in fact the tissue with the genetic material which surrounds the hair (i mean the hair as a result and not the follicle itself only the visible hair). Also it is possible not to extract the whole hair and follicle STRUCTURES and provide hair regrow in the donor area with this technique.
> 
> So now just put all your hatred for my persona aside for one second and think this through.Try to imagine what would happen if you not stance out the whole follicle and his structure but instead you extract only the vital parts for hair to survive (tissue etc) and use an ECM for recipient and donor side and also "feed" the plucked or harvested hair with it.
> ...


 
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH YADDA YADDA YADDA YADDA YADDA ... 

Me thinks you are obsessed with hair loss, you need counselling.

----------


## Bakez

> UK_ you shouldnt use too much of those LOL and Smileys it makes you seem to people like a total naive kid. And to a certain point it is really embarrassing me and maybe other people here. I think if some mods would delete stuff here, your counter would decrease more then hairloss on a NW7 guy, thats for sure.
> 
> Anyway using lol and smiley seems very ridicolous to me, you should stop with this its painful to read.I am actually more interested in seeing those promised resuls after four weeks, when it was said some time ago. Nope i dont agree with Dr Cole, never said that. You interpret to much. Well i did not sledgehammer your "arguments" i only show my perspective. Because iam not one of those "Yeah lets all be sad guys who use Smileys and LOL but in the night i cry bitter tears because i loose hair"
> 
> Even if i dont like Iron.Man he had give THE most accurate statement till now. "That the current generation of hairtransplants (follicle planting) is just a Pre Step to the infinite donor (hair multiplication what people generally think it is)" You can say that it took some generations of redefining hair transplants to get to a point where infinite Donor is actually possible.
> 
> And if you analyse it from a medical standpoint, the procedure or technique never changes but the performance does. First you had chunks of flesh in combination with doll hair plugs. After that you redefine the second step to get micrografts. At some point, someone had the idea to harvest the hair not in flesh chunks, instead just "stance" them out of the donor area (first generation problem Shotgun holes).
> 
> Then at some point in time FUE was developed without those huge shot gun holes. One thing which occured during several FUE transplants even in the past was, that sometimes in the donor area the follicle or more precisely the hair grew back as if it wasnt harvested. And now i can certainly say we are close at the brink of a changing future because now there are ambitions to make this extra ordinary thing called regrow, to a more or less standard procedure.
> ...


 Can you please just shut up, you ruin every thread and reduce the chances of a real Dr actually posting something useful when they see this sort of crap on the forum.

----------


## mlao

i really miss Fixedby35

----------


## LarryDavid

SHUT UP both of you.
This is a Thread to talk about the interview and to talk to Craig Ziering. I dont think all your spam encourages him to talk here anymore.
Lets just wait for the pictures Ziering was talking about.

----------


## mlao

> SHUT UP both of you.
> This is a Thread to talk about the interview and to talk to Craig Ziering. I dont think all your spam encourages him to talk here anymore.
> Lets just wait for the pictures Ziering was talking about.


 A sane voice at last!

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well if both of you guys UK_ and Bakez dont understand this, well then i doubt that any doc here can give you guys an answer you will understand. Because thats exactly what current day hair multiplication is about, nothing more nothing less.

If you say that this is blah blah well i highly recommend you both guys to really leave hairloss boards :-) because you dont know anything about hair at all.

@ Bakez if you would be a person with half a functioning brain you would have seen in the past that Dr Hitzig did in fact agree with my ideas or what i was understanding about the whole situation ;-)

I dont think i ruin a thread here because i try to get you stubborn 23 year old pessimestic crybaby to finally realize what possible solutions are you know. And you know what destroys thread? People who say stuff like Bla Blah Yadda Yadda cause it contributes nothing at all.

I dont reduce the chance of docs actually answering here my friend, the opposite is the case because all my questions so far were answered why you keep on crying and post crazy crap at hair site which also shows me that you are not willing to understand just simple things.

Should i refresh your 23 years old memory Bakez? Ok then here we go

1) This was a Bakez response to Iron.Man who just started a thread with questions regarding Dr Hitzig, i have to admit the qzestions were packed in too much text but thats Iron.Man and its ok

Bakez: " You post is basically impossible to read. Shut the **** up. *I think the ACell thing will fail as well*, but I don't feel the need to write walls of meandering text and basically personally attacking Doctors.

Shut up and wait. Why is this guy still on the forum? "

The question here remains, why does Bakez register in february at hair site only to insult someone with the first posting (also this matter was Acell related)

2) In response of Dr Hitzigs Acell PRP fotos

Bakez : " *I'm sorry, but these photos provide nothing other than enhancing my suspicions that this is just another massive swindle*. "

But now its getting really interesting. Just remeber Bakez was saying that Hitzigs Acell PRP is a swindle. But guess what what he said when it comes to Dr Cole :-)

3) Who is cheering things up here? 

Bakez : " DEFINITELY go with Dr Cole.

Dr Cole is the only person who has been posting absolutely clear and concise findings on ACell. *Dr Hitzig is just posting sensationalist speculation, and the photos he displays are open to question* - *the ones Dr Cole has posted definitely aren't open to question and are as clear as day*.

*Dr Cole appears to also have vast (ie as much as anyone else at the moment) experience with ACell, he just hasn't done the plucking procedure trials*. ( WAIT WHAT? I was under the impression that Dr Cole was against Acell and very sceptical so how can he be someone with vast experience)

If you would have been 95% close to having a transplant anyway even if this ACell thing hadn't come up, then go with Dr Cole. *I see no reason to disbelieve Dr Cole's claims like I do with Hitzig*.  (Odd that Bakez gives no conclusive evidence WHY he believes Dr Cole and not Dr Hitzig)

Also my question is, what fotos are those two guys here refering to? The one single FUE foto with blood vessels?

Anyway its getting better and better

4) Now its getting interesting for a 23 year old hairloss sufferer who just has begun to gather informations he seems very confident.

Bakez : " *Dr Hitzig has posted little evidence, its just speculation and dubious photos*. *He might be telling the truth but we dont know*. (WE? more likely you alone because it seems that you didnt really pay attention to the scientific papers but ok you are 23 years old and in the beginning of a long journey at least in your case)

*What we do know with Dr Cole is that you will get world class transplant regardless whether the ACell works, and he has posted no questionable photos with ACell, he documents scientifically and with no bias and what he has shown is exciting*, but he still remains conservative in estimations (ie if he hasn't seen it happen with proof, then he won't claim 'the cure is almost here' like Hitzig seems to have). Therefore if it is anyone who you should trust it is Dr Cole. *Infact he is the only Dr on that thread that I trust.* 

Well, well very smart for someone in the beginning :-) am i right

And now to the final part of our Bakez Journey

5) Bakez in action : " Forget about Hitzig for god sake. Just say to Dr Cole, give me a hair transplant and use ACell to see if you can get some extraction site regrowth. You will get a top class hair transplant anyway, as good as anywhere else in the world,* and maybe some donor regrowth/good healing, and with a Dr that will scientifically evaluate the results.*

*Let Hitzig continue posting dubious photos if he wants*."

Well i think you guys have to choose a side for real, on the one hand you guys say Dr Cole does document everything very well but on the other hand he has no interest in actually try plucking or FUE/CIT multiplication because he says "Where is the science"

And i know why you guys want me to shut up, because at least i stick with my opinion here.

Also your answers did show me one thing you guys are not mature and never will be. Because what Bakez has said in number 5) is exactly what i asked him to think about        donor regeneration    :-)

I think UK_ and Bakez you officially diqualified yourself from every credibility here, without my help i have to say.

I am not obsessed with hairloss but with the things how to actually overcome this, if it would be otherwise i would act like Bakez who, to me is the prime example of some desperate youngster who will sooner or later do something very bad. It al starts in general with hasty actions and the unwillingness to think straight for one second about your hair and its characteristics.

If you would actually take one second to think about what i wrote, you really would have answered a lot of questions yourself and then you would realize that in fact the whole " Where is the science" thing from Dr Cole is in fact more devastating for hairloss sufferers in general.

And this is a statement which remains true, i think Bakez will realize this someday and he will regret some of his postings, thats for sure.

My apologies to all readers here who feel offended or bored, but i think some things should be discussed in a serious and mature way without insulting people are answer with blah blah yaddah yaddah. This shows only that no one of you guys is actually willing to get along peaceful with this community here. I tried to teach you guys to a certain point what and how you could get infinite donor and you guys didnt listen to it so its your problem.

----------


## UK_

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

It just never ends with this guy.

However Richard, I must inform you that nothing in your previous post comes even close to refuting Dr Cole's statement :Big Grin: .  Try Harder.

Seriously, you need help, these treatments are not designed to help the insane.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Go on with your opinion. But i think it seems odd when you browse at Dr Coles site and just look at the latest or prominent featured Acell articles here.

1) January 2011 : Someone seems very enthusiastic  http://www.hairlosspress.com/date/2011/01/

2) For Bakez and his Acell Fail storys 

3) How do you explain the 92% with Acell usage vs 0% without using Acell  

4) And here thats funny 

it clearly says the following " .....In the future, it is possible that ECM could be used to re-grow extracted hair, potentially providing patients with an unlimited donor supply......

So why is his statement accurate again, when the opposite thing is prominently featured on his website ;-) Where is the science that he still features this hmm guys. Bakez do you have anything to say with regards to " Acell fails" no? Why not? Damn those 92% beard hair yield, right ;-)

Btw what Dr Cole says in one of the links above is exactly what i was aiming for

----------


## CAlex

No disrespect to anyone whose got family in the effected areas around the Earthquake/Tsunami BUT I am curiously/worried to know if histogens and follicas asia trials will be effected/stopped/postponed.

I realize this is not the ideal time to ask this question with everything that is going on but I get worried easily and I fear histogen might not proceed with trials now for a long time  :Frown:

----------


## Bakez

> Well if both of you guys UK_ and Bakez dont understand this, well then i doubt that any doc here can give you guys an answer you will understand. Because thats exactly what current day hair multiplication is about, nothing more nothing less.
> 
> If you say that this is blah blah well i highly recommend you both guys to really leave hairloss boards :-) because you dont know anything about hair at all.
> 
> @ Bakez if you would be a person with half a functioning brain you would have seen in the past that Dr Hitzig did in fact agree with my ideas or what i was understanding about the whole situation ;-)
> 
> I dont think i ruin a thread here because i try to get you stubborn 23 year old pessimestic crybaby to finally realize what possible solutions are you know. And you know what destroys thread? People who say stuff like Bla Blah Yadda Yadda cause it contributes nothing at all.
> 
> I dont reduce the chance of docs actually answering here my friend, the opposite is the case because all my questions so far were answered why you keep on crying and post crazy crap at hair site which also shows me that you are not willing to understand just simple things.
> ...


 I honestly dont care, just shut up

----------


## HairTalk

> No disrespect to anyone whose got family in the effected areas around the Earthquake/Tsunami BUT I am curiously/worried to know if histogens and follicas asia trials will be effected/stopped/postponed.
> 
> I realize this is not the ideal time to ask this question with everything that is going on but I get worried easily and I fear histogen might not proceed with trials now for a long time


 Sorry to pounce on you, but I'm more than a little annoyed by your asking this question, even with your "disclaimer" about meaning no offense to anyone. Recent stories suggest the death-toll as a result of the events in Japan may be near 10,000; there still are massive problems concerning water, food, heat, shelter; nuclear plants seem not yet to be under control; literally countless lives have been damaged for a very long, if not indefinite, period, in the wake of the most powerful earthquake in the recorded history of the region.

For you to wander in to express concern to whether studies of a cosmetic product will be affected by all this, to my sentiment, is ****ing reprehensible.

----------


## UK_

> No disrespect to anyone whose got family in the effected areas around the Earthquake/Tsunami BUT I am curiously/worried to know if histogens and follicas asia trials will be effected/stopped/postponed.
> 
> I realize this is not the ideal time to ask this question with everything that is going on but I get worried easily and I fear histogen might not proceed with trials now for a long time


 Are you for real? :EEK!:

----------


## CAlex

I wont snap back because it serves no point. ALL I will say is your attack was unwarranted. just odd you are on the thread unless you  were looking for updates about histogen yourself.

My question stands. I hope histogen is able to continue with their trials and stay on schedule.

----------


## gmonasco

> Go on with your opinion. But i think it seems odd when you browse at Dr Coles site and just look at the latest or prominent featured Acell articles here.


 This thread is about Histogen's HSC trials, not Acell.  If you want to debate the latter, please take it to the appropriate thread.

----------


## GBB

The four month time period is up, I hope histogen has some news to share regarding the exploratory case studies. 
Obviously I am impatient. But it would be nice to get back some hair when I am still young.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yes iam also excited to see the promised update

----------


## GBB

The wait is killing me!

----------


## GBB

Ok, I got one more question if doctor Zerring is taking them-- 
The histogen Web site says that HSC causes new follicle formation, while doctor zerring seems to suggest that HSC promotes growth in existing follicles, even though they may have been dormant for a long long time. Am I missing something somewhere?
Now, is there a point of no return for a hair follicle? As in, can it atrophy to such a stage that it cannot be rejuvenated at all?

One hopes that HSC doesn't face any more delays, as we arent getting any younger or better. Also, whenever the treatment is approved in Asia, I hope all Asian countries have access to it. In my case, I'll be very selfish and hope it is available in India at least. There is a huuuuge market in this country with very little regulatory measures. People have made crores making a fool out of people. Plus the general lack of understanding makes it worse. I'll go a little off-topic and say that Spencer's effort has really motivated me to start something similar in my country. Hopefully, someday I'll be able to do it without getting embarrased about it.

----------


## UK_

> Ok, I got one more question if doctor Zerring is taking them-- 
> The histogen Web site says that HSC causes new follicle formation, while doctor zerring seems to suggest that HSC promotes growth in existing follicles, even though they may have been dormant for a long long time. Am I missing something somewhere?
> Now, is there a point of no return for a hair follicle? As in, can it atrophy to such a stage that it cannot be rejuvenated at all?.


 
Well those are the questions we are all dying to know, we only had new research in January that suggests that no, follicles do not die off yet continue to produce microscopic hairs.

If you listen to the past interviews of the representatives of Histogen (i.e. Gail Naughton and Craig Ziering), they are stating that (1) HSC 'seems' to be inducing existing terminal hairs to grow more surrounding hairs per follicular unit and (2) that HSC seems to be signalling stem cells _already in the scalp_ (possibly dormant follicles) to produce thicker hairs (as opposed to microscopic hairs).

----------


## GBB

> Well those are the questions we are all dying to know, we only had new research in January that suggests that no, follicles do not die off yet continue to produce microscopic hairs.
> 
> If you listen to the past interviews of the representatives of Histogen (i.e. Gail Naughton and Craig Ziering), they are stating that (1) HSC 'seems' to be inducing existing terminal hairs to grow more surrounding hairs per follicular unit and (2) that HSC seems to be signalling stem cells _already in the scalp_ (possibly dormant follicles) to produce thicker hairs (as opposed to microscopic hairs).


 So the statement on the Histogen Web site about HSC 'inducing new follicle formation' is actually about activating progenitor cells? That clears things a little.  :Smile: 

Now the only question is, when can I get my hands on it, if at all? 

By the way, how do you suggest I keep some hair till the time HSC saves my life if I cannot take minox (tried it for 6-7 months, hair density became worse, caused severe adverse effects, acclerated the shedding)? I am a woman, 25 years old, so obviously Fin or Avodart is out of the question.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Nobody can for sure say what Histogen does, but one thing is clear it DOES something positive even in those early stages right now.

If you wanna keep your hair or try something, you should consider Acell/PRP as an option or at least something to look about. There was one doc here who showed one female hairloss patient with Acell/PRP

Here is the thread : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4604

----------


## GBB

> Nobody can for sure say what Histogen does, but one thing is clear it DOES something positive even in those early stages right now.
> 
> If you wanna keep your hair or try something, you should consider Acell/PRP as an option or at least something to look about. There was one doc here who showed one female hairloss patient with Acell/PRP
> 
> Here is the thread : http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4604


 Yeah. HSC is the only hope to hang on to at the moment.

As far as the Acell/PRP thing is concerned, there are two concerns:

Problem No. 1: I am based in India. ACell does not ship the matristem micromatrix ,or, any device for that matter, internationally. It has no plans of doing so in the near future. I checked with them. Most dermatologists/hair restoration surgeons will have barely heard about PRP here. We still think HairMax is state-of-the-art!

Problem No. 2 : The pictures posted on that thread are called 'TEbefore', 'TEAfter' and so on. Try hovering the mouse over them and see. This leads me to believe that it was a case of Telogen Effluvium and not Androgenetic Alopecia from which I suffer. 

So basically, you are a young balding person, you're jacked, you are a woman, you are twice as jacked, you live in a third-world country, you can just forget about a viable treatment. Life is such a bitch!

P:S: I suddenly feel somewhat better emotionally after joining this forum. Thank you for listening.

----------


## RichardDawkins

> Yeah. HSC is the only hope to hang on to at the moment.
> 
> As far as the Acell/PRP thing is concerned, there are two concerns:
> 
> Problem No. 1: I am based in India. ACell does not ship the matristem micromatrix ,or, any device for that matter, internationally. It has no plans of doing so in the near future. I checked with them. *Most dermatologists/hair restoration surgeons will have barely heard about PRP here. We still think HairMax is state-of-the-art*!
> 
> Problem No. 2 : The pictures posted on that thread are called 'TEbefore', 'TEAfter' and so on. Try hovering the mouse over them and see. This leads me to believe that it was a case of Telogen Effluvium and not Androgenetic Alopecia from which I suffer. 
> 
> So basically, you are a young balding person, you're jacked, you are a woman, you are twice as jacked, you live in a third-world country, you can just forget about a viable treatment. Life is such a bitch!
> ...


 Ha you made me smiley, dont think about third world countrys as the only countrys witout state of the art techniques or ressources.

I live in germany, and as i said before here people are under the impression that FUE will be the most advanced "solution" ever and that FUT got a better yield then FUE  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## UK_

> So the statement on the Histogen Web site about HSC 'inducing new follicle formation' is actually about activating progenitor cells? That clears things a little. 
> 
> Now the only question is, when can I get my hands on it, if at all? 
> 
> By the way, how do you suggest I keep some hair till the time HSC saves my life if I cannot take minox (tried it for 6-7 months, hair density became worse, caused severe adverse effects, acclerated the shedding)? I am a woman, 25 years old, so obviously Fin or Avodart is out of the question.


 To be honest, the theory/literature behind WNT proteins (7A) is that they are upregulated in wound healing, so I am guessing they are signalling existing stem cells in the scalp to 'regenerate' more hairs per follicular unit, but there are no room for guesses, assumptions and false hope in the realm of scientific study :Big Grin: .  

This is true regenerative medicine, like Aderans, I am _utterly convinced_ that it will work, my only concern is safety.

Obviously Histogen will know the final answer, by the way, you left out Aderans in your "list of hope", Histogen and Aderans are also conducting a real scientific study, not a hit and miss shot in the dark like other hyped procedures in the pipeline.

----------


## CVAZBAR

I have a feeling DOC Z has nothing good to say since he is lagging. I lost all hope.

----------


## HairTalk

> Ha you made me smiley, dont think about third world countrys as the only countrys witout state of the art techniques or ressources.
> 
> I live in germany, and as i said before here people are under the impression that FUE will be the most advanced "solution" ever and that FUT got a better yield then FUE


 I believe many experts currently in the field (as of March, 2011) do feel strip-harvesting tends to give higher yield than F.U.E.

----------


## KeepTheHair

> Sorry to pounce on you, but I'm more than a little annoyed by your asking this question, even with your "disclaimer" about meaning no offense to anyone. Recent stories suggest the death-toll as a result of the events in Japan may be near 10,000; there still are massive problems concerning water, food, heat, shelter; nuclear plants seem not yet to be under control; literally countless lives have been damaged for a very long, if not indefinite, period, in the wake of the most powerful earthquake in the recorded history of the region.
> 
> For you to wander in to express concern to whether studies of a cosmetic product will be affected by all this, to my sentiment, is ****ing reprehensible.


 Oh, just shut the **** up dude.



He was just wondering if it had any effect on the trials. Geezus. Grow a ****ing brain or shut the **** up. Hair loss is not just cosmetics it's a life altering thing. I know Japan faced worst but being curious about the damages to the trials is not doing anything you just choose to take offence. So shut the hell up.

----------


## CAlex

Thanks for seeing I wasnt trying to be a selfish a##hole keepTheHair  :Smile: 

Hopefully your comments dont offend hairtalk too much and get us further off topic and into just arguing with each other.. We are all in this together and hopefully we stay on track for a 2013 life changer.

I think histogen is going to try their phase II in Singapore and I havent seen any major news concerning that location with the recent disaster.

----------


## GBB

> I have a feeling DOC Z has nothing good to say since he is lagging. I lost all hope.


 Doc Z said that Histogen would have the results in 4 weeks, doesn't necessarily mean he can share it immediately. I know its easy to get dissapointed, considering the barrage of false hopes that have been fed. But it would do no harm to wait a little before jumping to conclusions.

We have countless anxious people here, Doc Z, please put us out of our misery... :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## UK_

> Doc Z said that Histogen would have the results in 4 weeks, doesn't necessarily mean he can share it immediately. I know its easy to get dissapointed, considering the barrage of false hopes that have been fed. But it would do no harm to wait a little before jumping to conclusions.
> 
> We have countless anxious people here, Doc Z, please put us out of our misery...


 Exactly he said the results would be in at 4 weeks, and he planned to share the information with the hair loss community, it obviously takes time to first view/analyse the data, prepare it and reveal it to the public at mass.  Have patience all, it will come, for better or worse.

----------


## HairTalk

> Oh, just shut the **** up dude.
> 
> 
> 
> He was just wondering if it had any effect on the trials. Geezus. Grow a ****ing brain or shut the **** up. Hair loss is not just cosmetics it's a life altering thing. I know Japan faced worst but being curious about the damages to the trials is not doing anything you just choose to take offence. So shut the hell up.


 Breathe in some radiation, then go die in several feet of water, you mindless waste of flesh.

Don't worry: beyond that response, I won't twist this thread any further off its path than it already has been. I was attacked, and I've replied, but it isn't my chief concern to successfully convey to someone on the Internet how a person might, in a time of this sort of catastrophe, have difficulty accepting the sort of comment made by CAlex to which I reacted (someone against whom I harbor no lasting animosity, and for whom, at any point, I had greater respect than I ever could for a juvenile idiot such as KeepTheHair).

----------


## Relentless

> Breathe in some radiation, then go die in several feet of water, you mindless waste of flesh.


 **** off?

(10char)

----------


## Thinning@30

Have the phase II trials even started yet?  The Histogen website says these will begin early 2011 and its now March 2011.  I'm worried.  I also saw that the projected release date is now 2014 rather than 2013.  I understand delays are inevitable, but I really hope I can get some hair back while I'm still relatively young.

----------


## UK_

> Have the phase II trials even started yet?  The Histogen website says these will begin early 2011 and its now March 2011.  I'm worried.  I also saw that the projected release date is now 2014 rather than 2013.  I understand delays are inevitable, but I really hope I can get some hair back while I'm still relatively young.


 Phase II begins in spring (end of May) according to Gail Naughton.  But generally, I think the projection date for the next viable treatment remains 5 - 10 years, you'll be very lucky to get anything sooner.

----------


## GBB

> Have the phase II trials even started yet?  The Histogen website says these will begin early 2011 and its now March 2011.  I'm worried.  I also saw that the projected release date is now 2014 rather than 2013.  I understand delays are inevitable, but I really hope I can get some hair back while I'm still relatively young.


 Anyone got any concrete news on this yet? Guys who receive their updates/newsletters?

----------


## RichardDawkins

No one has :-)

Just dont pay attention to UK_ or others because all we know right no is that there is a deadline for 2014 asia and some time later western market.

I would stick with that until further news will rise and shine

----------


## UK_

> No one has :-)
> 
> Just dont pay attention to UK_ or others because all we know right no is that there is a deadline for 2014 asia and some time later western market.
> 
> I would stick with that until further news will rise and shine


 This is the third consecutive time you have mentioned my name in a post with no provocation on my behalf, I suggest you stop it, you are seriously one psychologically bent and beat-up individual. Take your hair loss pains out on someone else and stop moaning at the fact your hope in these 'miracle' treatments is the closest thing to pissing in the wind.

I am sorry it pains you to come to terms with the fact that your predictions and optimism regarding some of the potential treatments being studied now have no basis in objective reality (excluding those treatments that have demonstrated positive effects through controlled studies), but please, enough with the petty comments.

----------


## Jcm800

> This is the third consecutive time you have mentioned my name in a post with no provocation on my behalf, I suggest you stop it, you are seriously one psychologically bent and beat-up individual, take your hair loss pains out on someone else and stop moaning at the fact your hope in these 'miracle' treatments is the closest thing to pissing in the wind.


 Not being funny UK_ but it's not nice is it when someone has a pop at you?

We didn't provoke your wrath on the TRX2 thread when you chimed in several weeks back either, but you insisted on calling us 'retards' to begin with.

Anyway, we're all in the same shitty position. 

Peace love and happiness  :Smile:

----------


## RichardDawkins

> This is the third consecutive time you have mentioned my name in a post with no provocation on my behalf, I suggest you stop it, you are seriously one psychologically bent and beat-up individual. Take your hair loss pains out on someone else and stop moaning at the fact your hope in these 'miracle' treatments is the closest thing to pissing in the wind.
> 
> I am sorry it pains you to come to terms with the fact that your predictions and optimism regarding some of the potential treatments being studied now have no basis in objective reality (excluding those treatments that have demonstrated positive effects through controlled studies), but please, enough with the petty comments.


 I didnt attack you, but if this shoe fits. All i said was, she should ignore everyone until further details will rise and shine because right now YOU and I dont know jackshit about a timeline.

But to make it clear, you are more sociopathic because you flip sides so fast from "Histogen my savior" to "Histogen has failed" i think you can stuck this " 5 or 10 years crap elsewhere" but i wont argue with someone who calls other people retards, which is just stupid and uneducated.

nd if you attack others you have to know the fact that someone will attack you, easy as that :-)

----------


## HairTalk

> Have the phase II trials even started yet?  The Histogen website says these will begin early 2011 and its now March 2011.  I'm worried.  I also saw that the projected release date is now 2014 rather than 2013.  I understand delays are inevitable, but I really hope I can get some hair back while I'm still relatively young.


 As I understand (and I'd appreciate Dr. Ziering's clarifying this, if necessary), the results Histogen currently (as of March, 2011) has, and has shared, on H.S.C. are from the pilot study (on 24 subjects) conducted in January, 2009. In other words, everything any of us can right now go by, with regard to H.S.C., is based on *12 treated patients*.

I believe Dr. Ziering (in his interview, found in the first post of this thread) stated these subjects were analyzed at the two-year mark (Jan., 2011), and that these findings would be shared. I, along with many others, am eager to see these data, though I've not yet found them posted, anywhere.

It seems, now, Phase I/II trials of H.S.C. will be held in Singapore, starting Spring, 2011. I'm unsure of the precise dates, and I wonder if Dr. Ziering could supply these specifics.

I'd like to know what the breakdown of the study is to be, as well: 50, then 300, subjects will be involved, but what are the timeline and the framing? Is the plan to run safety trials on 50 subjects, and efficacy/dosing on 300? If so, are these to be undertaken simultaneously? Will all subjects be men suffering from androgenic alopecia? What class/es of baldness will be studied? Will H.S.C. be injected only into the crown or vertex areas, or into the temples or hairline, too?

I hope Dr. Ziering soon shares with us his two-year findings from H.S.C.'s pilot study, as well as a more detailed outline of how Histogen will proceed with testing of H.S.C.

----------


## gmonasco

> In other words, everything any of us can right now go by, with regard to H.S.C., is based on *12 treated patients*.


 Exactly.  Hope springs eternal ...

----------


## UK_

> Not being funny UK_ but it's not nice is it when someone has a pop at you?
> 
> We didn't provoke your wrath on the TRX2 thread when you chimed in several weeks back either, but you insisted on calling us 'retards' to begin with.
> 
> Anyway, we're all in the same shitty position. 
> 
> Peace love and happiness


 Hang on a minute, who did I call a retard?  I stated there is always a demand for products that do not have substantiated scientific evidence for their efficacy because of 'retarded consumers'.  It is no different to stating there is always a demand for psuedo-scientific gurus and their life-long learning schemes because of the same retards that bite the hook.  I am sorry you found my statement rather offensive, but nobody is perfect.

Define retard: "relatively slow in mental or emotional or physical development and reasoning".

You have to be pretty slow to believe a vitamin pill will cure yourself and humanity of hair loss.  You have to be even slower to buy a 3 month supply for circa &#163;90 on the basis of zero scientific evidence, just a study done by a PhD student does not suffice (i.e.  where were the comparisons?  How does it fair against propecia?  Minoxidil?)  But lets not go into the efficacy of TRX2, I am still waiting on peoples 3 month follow-up, and in all honesty I haven't seen anything convincing, and shall not assume that I ever will.  I am here to discuss HSC and HSC only.

----------


## mlao

Those of us who have friends and family who are sometimes thoughtlessly referred to as retards or retarded take offense to the term. A number of posters use this term carelessly. It shows your ignorance.

----------


## UK_

> I didnt attack you, but if this shoe fits. All i said was, she should ignore everyone until further details will rise and shine because right now YOU and I dont know jackshit about a timeline.
> 
> But to make it clear, you are more sociopathic because you flip sides so fast from "Histogen my savior" to "Histogen has failed" i think you can stuck this " 5 or 10 years crap elsewhere" *but i wont argue with someone who calls other people retards, which is just stupid and uneducated*.
> 
> nd if you attack others you have to know the fact that someone will attack you, easy as that :-)


 Please see my previous post.

----------


## UK_

> Those of us who have friends and family who are sometimes thoughtlessly referred to as retards or retarded take offense to the term. A number of posters use this term carelessly. It shows your ignorance.


 That is rubbish, you would never jump to such a fuss if I used the term 'stupid' or 'dumb' what on earth is the difference?  I know the PC police are on high alert these days but this is just ridiculous.

----------


## mlao

[QUOTE=UK_;24864]That is rubbish, you would never jump to such a fuss if I used the term 'stupid' or 'dumb' what on earth is the difference, I know the PC police are on high alert these days but this is just ridiculous.[/QUOTE

I guess you have never seen a mentally challenged person cry when someone uses that term. Stupid or dumb does not imply a condition.

----------


## UK_

[QUOTE=mlao;24865]


> That is rubbish, you would never jump to such a fuss if I used the term 'stupid' or 'dumb' what on earth is the difference, I know the PC police are on high alert these days but this is just ridiculous.[/QUOTE
> 
> I guess you have never seen a mentally challenged person cry when someone uses that term. Stupid or dumb does not imply a condition.


 How do you square your comment with the existence of speechless humans on planet earth?

You are from planet earth right?

----------


## gmonasco

> How do you square your comment with the existence of speechless humans on planet earth?


 Such people are known as "mute."

Now please take the childish squabbling somewhere off this forum.

----------


## CAlex

I think another BIG question about the histogen phase 2 trials is...

A) will patients from the phase 1 trials be included?
this would help greatly in determining if the effects of hsc are compoundable(more treatments more hairs/cm2)

patients in phase 1 went from 179 to 263 (1.47 cm2 area) hairs at the end of the study. An increase of roughly 46 %

If histogen is able to increase those same subjects now 263 density by 22% that would  bring them to natural density  :Smile:   :Smile:   :Smile: 

320 hairs over a 1.47 cm2 area would be 183 hairs per cm/2

B) the study should focus on a larger area. It would be wise to learn if the body can only be coaxed into producing new hairs over a small area at any one time. Plus we would see if hsc can reproduce consistent results over a large area

----------


## gmonasco

> will patients from the phase 1 trials be included? this would help greatly in determining if the effects of hsc are compoundable(more treatments more hairs/cm2)


 That was a pilot clinical trial, not a Phase I trial.  And since each subject received only a single injection, I don't think further testing on them would demonstrate much of anything about the compoundability of HSC's effects.

----------


## CAlex

I respectively disagree gmonasco.

If the original patients from the earlier trial are added and gain no benefit from phase 2 we could learn that maybe the hsc treatment is a one time results deal. Better to find out now and begin working on a way around it then waiting until later IMO

I think the cost vs beneficial information "we" might learn is definitely worth it.

----------


## gmonasco

> If the original patients from the earlier trial are added and gain no benefit from phase 2 we could learn that maybe the hsc treatment is a one time results deal.


 a)  Again, they weren't phase 1 subjects; they were pilot clinical trial subjects.  There's a very big difference between the two.

b)  They each only received a single injection.  Even if a second injection produced more hair in some of those subjects, that wouldn't really be enough to demonstrate that the effects were compoundable (rather than that, say, the first injections didn't fully "take").

You'd have to wait until the true phase 1 testing was complete, then use some of those subjects in subsequent testing to determine if the results were compoundable.

----------


## CAlex

So I guess if histogen still needs to do Phase 1 2 AND 3 the release date of 2013 in Asia is way off.

----------


## MMJ

First of all I will say that I have high hopes for HSC and believe it is an exciting product. But I believe people may be overly enthusiastic at the moment without looking at all the facts given by Histogen. This could leave to dissapointment in the end for many people and tend to give a non objective discussion. 
People throw around some incredible numbers and I know some of them come from Ziering himself, but these numbers are probably the best responders. Not an average. And moste people will not have that kind of result. About 15 percent wont respond at all after 3 months according to a graph on histogen.com (http://histogen.com/images/terminal_...sity_graph.gif).
If we look at the 1-year data (http://histogen.com/images/hsc_graph.jpg) we can see that the average increase after 3 months are about ten hairs (from 230 to 240 hair, 5 &#37 :Wink:  and at 12 months the increase is 30 hairs (230 to 260 hair, 13 percent).
These numbers are not at all impressive and probably not even visible improvements. Why do people avoid discussing these official numbers? I sure hope phase 2 will produce much better results than this. I would like to see numerous injections during a 4 week period, maybe once a week, and see what that does. I dont understand why phase 2 only will include only one follow up injection.
Anyway, fingers crossed that the case study photos are available soon, that will be exciting to see.

----------


## KeepHoping

I find it so irritating that patients can't sign a waiver prior to the FDA approval to get treatment for something.  2014 is such a long way off.

----------


## RichardDawkins

MMJ : Good point but on a larger scale this effect would be very dramatic and cosmetically significant.

The most important thing is that those hairs can stay and that they dont succumb to dht right after the injection.

Also those are pre clinical or in our terms "useless" trials. But even they showed hair regrow with a permanent touch which is very impressive. Right now Histogen could put their stuff on the market and it would drastically benefit people here.

Maybe they should, you forget to mention that your native hair also gets stronger after the injection. There was this one Histogen picture around where you could see one really blan guy with four areas treated and in the HSC treated area there was significant grow, even from a far away bird view this was seeable.

I believe that results are stackable, it would just represent the idea behind this. Because hairloss is not a direct thing, its slowly taking its toll and so will HSC regain those hairs step by step.

Am i optimistic about HSC? No more realistic, it wont help with extensive scartissue or areas where no follicles are alive.

An i blieve that a NW7 guy has to get more then one injection runs here

----------


## Jcm800

> Hang on a minute, who did I call a retard?  I stated there is always a demand for products that do not have substantiated scientific evidence for their efficacy because of 'retarded consumers'.  It is no different to stating there is always a demand for psuedo-scientific gurus and their life-long learning schemes because of the same retards that bite the hook.  I am sorry you found my statement rather offensive, but nobody is perfect.
> 
> Define retard: "relatively slow in mental or emotional or physical development and reasoning".
> 
> You have to be pretty slow to believe a vitamin pill will cure yourself and humanity of hair loss.  You have to be even slower to buy a 3 month supply for circa £90 on the basis of zero scientific evidence, just a study done by a PhD student does not suffice (i.e.  where were the comparisons?  How does it fair against propecia?  Minoxidil?)  But lets not go into the efficacy of TRX2, I am still waiting on peoples 3 month follow-up, and in all honesty I haven't seen anything convincing, and shall not assume that I ever will.  I am here to discuss HSC and HSC only.


 So you called us Retards & Goons for trying TRX2 out? Sure it was offensive, but, you did have some fair points, just the way you go about putting them across could do with toning down  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Anyone who cares to follow this link can read your polite introduction to the thread  :Smile: 

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=3759&page=95

----------


## KeepHoping

Yeah, and if they could, they should put it out on the market and help millions of people if the next trails run smoothly.  It's a medicine that works with follicles that are present in the scalp so by prolonging its release it just hurts the balding community.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Jcm please stay away with UK from Acell related thread .-) This guy is like the infectious form of hairloss, where he goes crap happens or as h likes to say "utterly bullcrap"

I do belive that behind the Acc UK_ are multiple people, because he switches his writing style so often :-)

anyway i am still exited about the hopefully soon upcoming news here

----------


## Jcm800

> Jcm please stay away with UK from Acell related thread .-) This guy is like the infectious form of hairloss, where he goes crap happens or as h likes to say "utterly bullcrap"
> 
> I do belive that behind the Acc UK_ are multiple people, because he switches his writing style so often :-)
> 
> anyway i am still exited about the hopefully soon upcoming news here


 Hey - it's fine, i wont outstay my welcome, just felt compelled to chime in and let it be known that UK_ has been a pain in the ass elsewhere - but all the same, no bad feeling's from me, he's frustrated like most of us.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well yes but there is a difference between frustrated and just being a troll.

I saw repair patients here who had all the rights in the world to be frustrated but they are not ;-)

----------


## gmonasco

> Also those are pre clinical or in our terms "useless" trials. But even they showed hair regrow with a permanent touch which is very impressive.


 Based solely on the pilot clinical trial (which is all the information we have at this point), I don't think you can even say that much.  For all we know, HSC may simply have coaxed existing hairs out of the telogen phase early (similar to what minoxodil does).

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well but Minox cant do this in this kind of scale. Also Minox has to be used permanently. And here you have your hair even after the small injection.

Also you have to consider one thing, even if people say "Its not permanent" i have to disagree.

The head has a lot of blood vessels and fast metabolism and cycles, so in the case of a non permanent or non semi permant solution, the hair grow effect would have been succumbed really really fast and short after witnessing the hair.

Also your head area is one of the warmest of your whole body even in the wintertime so those factors would also be beneficial for HSC to vanish and to diminish or destroy the effect of it.

But this is only my opinion. I belive that if HSC wouldnt be permanent, your hair wouldnt even grow after the injection because i think if a follicle is in its end phase its highly unlikely for a non permanent injection to animate hair growth.

Also the critical 3 or 6 month mark where some of the hair was gone or reduced, in a non permanent case almost all of the hair would have been vanished but instead the hair count increased after one hair and was steady.

This would also contradict the normal way of hairloss, because dont forget, those hairs are the DHT succumbing ones.

Another strange theory i heared lately was, that someone mentioned the possibility of hair, when it succums to dht and gets afterwards awaken again, gets the information for resist DHT because it suffered before. Something like an "Anti-Gen" theory. Could be plausible but i dont know, on the other hand our body is very fast in adapting or rewrite things when it comes to infection deseases or anything else.

So maybe with a small percentage there is a slight bit of truth in this theory and HSC works as a good kickstart, while Acell on the other hand works as a soft and easy kickstart without that much impact.

The thing that backs up this theory for me is the ability of our hair to copy other hairs. And its always strange that even a small pill can hold or reduce hairloss and a shampoo can also help to benefit here.

It shows that the hair is somehow like a puppet and needs a puppet master to play with it. When it doesnt come to DHT, hair can be one tough motherfu****

But i am interested what you guys think

----------


## KeepHoping

Those hairs have been reported as lasting for 2 years plus with no signs of further loss unless I'm not understanding something...  This is not what minoxidil does, plus it was one small dose and only one shot.

----------


## UK_

> Such people are known as "mute."
> 
> Now please take the childish squabbling somewhere off this forum.


 Wrong, such people _can also_ be known as 'mute', it is, if one had the most basic grasp of the English language, a synonym for the word 'dumb'.  Your arrogation regarding the _naming_ of disabled individuals utterly astounds me.  And you can not, by any means, sit there and tell me that you have never used such words, similar to the context in which I used them, and expect me to take you seriously.

----------


## UK_

> Well yes but there is a difference between frustrated and just being a troll.
> 
> I saw repair patients here who had all the rights in the world to be frustrated but they are not ;-)


 There is also a difference between trolling and constructive criticism.

----------


## HairTalk

> I respectively disagree gmonasco.
> 
> If the original patients from the earlier trial are added and gain no benefit from phase 2 we could learn that maybe the hsc treatment is a one time results deal. Better to find out now and begin working on a way around it then waiting until later IMO
> 
> I think the cost vs beneficial information "we" might learn is definitely worth it.


 I believe it would not make sense to include twelve persons treated during a pilot study, in a fresh trial of a product, re-injecting them more than two years after initial exposure. If Histogen wishes to examine whether multiple doses of H.S.C. will have compounded effect, it will have to do so on new subjects.




> So I guess if histogen still needs to do Phase 1 2 AND 3 the release date of 2013 in Asia is way off.


 Probably. We've not heard from Dr. Ziering in some time, and, as I mentioned in a recent post, I'd like him to provide a timeline for the upcoming study on H.S.C., as well updated results of the pilot study.

If phase I/II is run for one year, I think results could be analyzed then presented probably by the end of 2012. If all goes well, and phase III begins soon thereafter, things likely would be in order no sooner than early in 2015. Around then (again, if everything turns out well and the product is ready for introduction), I suppose H.S.C. could become available in places with lax government regulation of drugs, and it might be around 2016 that the product receives F.D.A. approval, in the United States.




> I find it so irritating that patients can't sign a waiver prior to the FDA approval to get treatment for something.  2014 is such a long way off.


 You find this irritating? I find it deeply annoying to see people make comments that, if realized, would be grossly dangerous and unethical. Why even have drug-approval? If people become ill or die on large scales, no problem: they signed waivers. And, don't give me the spiel about H.S.C.'s not being a potentially lethal compound: we're talking about regulation of pharmaceuticals, not about how specially H.S.C. should be treated, within the system — it cannot be.

----------


## Purple Glow

> Originally Posted by CAlex  
> Hell Dr Ziering.
> 
> First thank-you for spending so much time answering all of the questions you receive on here.
> 
> I have a question which I hope you can answer. Do you know what area was being measured in Histogens first trial? It had statistics of an increase of 84 hairs after 1 year on patients who got the hsc injections!
> 
> I am trying to find over what area/2 that data is about. 2 cm2 1 inch/2 ??? etc http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm (about 1/5 down the page is what I refer to)
> 
> ...


 84 hairs in 1.47 cm2

As I said before, 1.47 cm2 is roughly the size of a dime.  For illustration purposes, I took a pen and traced the edge of a dime to make a circle, then plotted 84 dots inside to represent 84 new hairs.

http://img703.imageshack.us/f/dime01.jpg/

----------


## gmonasco

> Wrong, such people _can also_ be known as 'mute', it is, if one had the most basic grasp of the English language, a synonym for the word 'dumb'.


 Nobody but the most rude, insensitive boor -- or someone with an exceedingly poor grasp of the English language -- would today refer to a non-speaking person as "dumb" rather than "mute."




> And you can not, by any means, sit there and tell me that you have never used such words, similar to the context in which I used them, and expect me to take you seriously.


 Sorry, but since leaving adolescence behind, I've never used any form of the word "retard" to refer to a human being.  Pity you can't say the same.

Now please take your childish squabbling out of this forum.

----------


## gmonasco

> Well but Minox cant do this in this kind of scale. Also Minox has to be used permanently. And here you have your hair even after the small injection.


 But you don't know that HSC's effects are permanent, either.  The best you can say is that they appear to last at least two years.

----------


## UK_

> But you don't know that HSC's effects are permanent, either.  The best you can say is that they appear to last at least two years.


 Doesn't matter - 2 years with continued regrowth after one injection is something that has never been achieved before.

----------


## BoSox

I heard it lasts as long as it took your hair to fall out in the first place, what 30years? Permanent or not.. this stuff, if effective, will last long enough.

I do have a question, which I'm sure has been asked before. How will HSC restore one's hairline? Is that something HT's can only achieve?

----------


## RichardDawkins

@gmonasco : Well f hair stays even after 2 years fully attacked by DHT its in my books highly unlikely that it wont be permanent.

But you raise a good point and appreciate this, but no thing till today had those impact on hairs. Maybe with a grain of salt and all fingers crossed and the clover in the pocket this theory about adapting resistance against dht is true

Minox and fin slower hairloss but with HSC it just stops, like fall dead on the ground.  and you have to see it like this " If this HSC driven new hair has regrowth itself, it was tha latest area of hairs which succumbs to dht, therefore it was their time to succumb" but how can this hair then even stay after two years, whil with fin and minox this hair would be gone long since.

And dont forget those were just "stupid little" pre clinical trials......which is highly impressive.

But dont get me wrong, i think that all the research right now was a lucky trick shot in the dark with closed eyes, which due a butterfly at the other end of the world, landed a Bullseye.

And yes when i speak about semi permanent, iam talking about hair that begins the circrle from anew till the day it succumbs.

So if this injection is repeatable (it is) then you could just get one full procedure done every 5 years or so of you keep feeling better.

Cause right now the hair remains for 2 years so only three more staying years and its sure fire :-)

And never gnore that will you have maybe to aim for every 5 years, progress will also be made and maybe they found a fully reversing treatment or hair transplantation will go automatic with unlimited donor WHO knows.

But one thing is sure, we should all be glad that we are living now and not 15 years ago with our age from today.

And gmonasco, dont you think its good, that those hairs even stay for 2 years, thats 2 years longer then anything else ^^

----------


## LarryDavid

I know i´m impatient, but it has been 5 weeks now. Maybe it would be possible for Spencer to speak to Ziering again and ask him when he is planing to publish the results of the latest injections.

----------


## UK_

> Nobody but the most rude, insensitive boor -- or someone with an exceedingly poor grasp of the English language -- would today refer to a non-speaking person as "dumb" rather than "mute."
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but since leaving adolescence behind, I've never used any form of the word "retard" to refer to a human being.  Pity you can't say the same.
> 
> Now please take your childish squabbling out of this forum.


 But it is a synonym of the word you used, k? :Big Grin: 

I take it you've never come across the recent work: _"The deaf and the dumb: the biology of ErbB-2 and ErbB-3"_?  Just an interesting article I was reading a few days ago.

You can access it online but you'll need a login.

Have you also heard of one of these:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...british/dumb_1

A wise man once said:

_Know what you say before you speak what you say_ :Big Grin:

----------


## HairTalk

> But you don't know that HSC's effects are permanent, either.  The best you can say is that they appear to last at least two years.


 


> Doesn't matter - 2 years with continued regrowth after one injection is something that has never been achieved before.


 The two-yearfollow-up results have not yet been shared. I think the best we know, right now, is effects remain observable up to twelve months after treatment.

----------


## UK_

> The two-year–follow-up results have not yet been shared. I think the best we know, right now, is effects remain observable up to twelve months after treatment.


 The effects do remain observable up to 2 years.

Dr Ziering stated in the interview with Spencer:

*“...We actually did a clinical trial... we have two year follow-up to that trial.. ”

“... what we’ve seen is that the results have been sustained for beyond a year... up to two years out...”*

2 years with sustained growth, is a truly remarkable achievement, a _game changer_ indeed.  I believe Histogen will also be presenting data at the WCD in a couple of months regarding the results seen with HSC.

----------


## HairTalk

> The effects do remain observable up to 2 years.
> 
> Dr Ziering stated in the interview with Spencer:
> 
> *...We actually did a clinical trial... we have two year follow-up to that trial.. 
> 
> ... what weve seen is that the results have been sustained for beyond a year... up to two years out...*
> 
> 2 years with sustained growth, is a truly remarkable achievement, a _game changer_ indeed.  I believe Histogen will also be presenting data at the WCD in a couple of months regarding the results seen with HSC.


 I do recall hearing that in Dr. Ziering's interview, but I await actually reading the results of the two-year follow-up.

----------


## UK_

> I do recall hearing that in Dr. Ziering's interview, but I await actually reading the results of the two-year follow-up.


 I hope it is two years, imagine not having to worry about hair loss for a whole two years.

I'd also love to see the presentation at the WCD.

----------


## GBB

> I know i´m impatient, but it has been 5 weeks now. Maybe it would be possible for Spencer to speak to Ziering again and ask him when he is planing to publish the results of the latest injections.


 I second that.

----------


## RichardDawkins

I agree Spencer should interview him again

----------


## GBB

Have the Phase i/ii trials been pushed back to May? I don't like the sound of this _at all_.

----------


## gmonasco

> But it is a synonym of the word you used, k?


 The concept you don't seem to grasp is that it isn't a synonym anyone but the obtuse would use in that sense.




> A wise man once said: _Know what you say before you speak what you say_


 Linguist, heal thyself.

----------


## gmonasco

> Doesn't matter - 2 years with continued regrowth after one injection is something that has never been achieved before.


 Not so.  If all that HSC is doing is prolonging the anagen phase and/or coaxing hair out of the telogen phase, that's neither new nor remarkable.

Plus, most (other) people would recognize that the difference between "lasts two years" and "is permanent" is vast and does in fact matter.

----------


## gmonasco

> Minox and fin slower hairloss but with HSC it just stops, like fall dead on the ground.


 It does?  What evidence demonstrates that statement about HSC to be true?

----------


## UK_

> The concept you don't seem to grasp is that it isn't a synonym anyone but the obtuse would use in that sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Linguist, heal thyself.


 Well we're finally getting somewhere, we just need you to agree that _yes indeed_ it is perfectly plausible to refer to those individuals who are unable to speak, as dumb, just as it is as plausible to refer to those individuals who cannot hear, as deaf.  I could probably post you close to a hundred medical journals in which the term 'dumb' refers to such people, but of course only _the obtuse_ would use it in such a sense.  Strange how you fail to see the paradox of your last statement.




> Not so. If all that HSC is doing is prolonging the anagen phase and/or coaxing hair out of the telogen phase, that's neither new nor remarkable..


 ...Enter, thy Devils Advocate :Big Grin: .

_"IF"_  ...IF only we had hair :Big Grin: 

Nobody on this website can show me a *single treatment* that can safely *create new hair growth*/ enhanced thickness of existing hairs maintained for up to 2 years, even if you went through every treatment/experiment over the last century... _so yes, it is remarkable_.  How many new hairs have you grown in your lab with your treatment this year? :Big Grin:

----------


## RichardDawkins

^@gmonasco : It stays for 2 years and right now there is no end in sight when they will succumb to DHT or if.

Even if it would just awake hairs in their anagen or telogen state, its highly unlikely that this hair would survive for more then 2 years with only one single injection.

And we all know that hairs in their different phases on a bald spot, well wont ever fill this spot again.

Even if you dont like it but hair is somehow "stupid and brainless"  :Frown:  if it gets told to succumb, it succumbs and if you tell it "Stay buddy" it just stays.

I personally believe that Histgen and Acell stuff FILLS some missing gaps what hair needs to not succumb to DHT.

Just remember a few months ago we heared that those progenitor cells are still active or "alive" even on bald people.

And thats something "very new" to "everyone" but some people were on those tracks years before, but they didnt have the techniques or equipment to do so.

And tell me one thing, why should a hair grow again in its prime, only to succumb again.

Thats btw one of those strange things you see on NW6 guys or so, that they even sometimes have hairs on normally bald spots, thats actually for me one of those proofs that even with DHT nuking, those succumbing hairs can be modified to immune ones.

Dr Hitzig posted some Pictures of someone who only got Acell injected on his scalp, the result was well as he describes it "moderate" regrowth and hairloss stop.

And after or slightly before those pictures he said that he wanna pusrue smaller particle Acell :-)

Which gave me one idea, he witnessed that the hairs sustained after Acell, but the hair concentration was only high on needled spots and its direct surroundings, so with finer particles and finer needles, he can recreate the original density again (theoretically)

And Histogen does another thing dose their injection higher :-) i really like those developments so far because its not only out of the box thinking anymore, its really an evolution in a newer technique.

----------


## gmonasco

> Nobody on this website can show me a *single treatment* that can safely *create new hair growth*/ enhanced thickness of existing hairs maintained for up to 2 years, even if you went through every treatment/experiment over the last century. _so yes, it is remarkable_.  How many new hairs have you grown in your lab with your treatment this year?


 Hint: A hair follicle cycling from telogen to anagen phase isn't really "new" hair.  And nearly all (normal) hairs produced as the follicle transitions from telogen to anagen last at least two years.

----------


## gmonasco

> Even if it would just awake hairs in their anagen or telogen state, its highly unlikely that this hair would survive for more then 2 years with only one single injection.


 Why not?  The normal telogen/anagen cycle for a follicle is anywhere from two to six years.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Why not?  The normal telogen/anagen cycle for a follicle is anywhere from two to six years.


 Did you ever ask Doc Z any of these questions? If he was sure it wasn't just the normal telogen/Anagen cycle. If so what did he say?

----------


## gmonasco

> Did you ever ask Doc Z any of these questions? If he was sure it wasn't just the normal telogen/Anagen cycle.


 No, I haven't.  But it's always something that should be considered when the "before" pictures have a fair amount of hair in them to begin with:

----------


## CVAZBAR

> No, I haven't.  But it's always something that should be considered when the "before" pictures have a fair amount of hair in them to begin with:


 You should ask. That would be a good question because Doc z seems to have a lot of faith in this product. I wanted to ask you a question G. What do you believe in? I mean do you have faith in any product? You are very active in this site but you rarely show optimism in anything.

----------


## UK_

> Hint: A hair follicle cycling from telogen to anagen phase isn't really "new" hair.  And nearly all (normal) hairs produced as the follicle transitions from telogen to anagen last at least two years.


 But how do _you know_ if that is happening?  The literature regarding the mechanism behind WNT 7A unfortunately does not support the hypothesis you are proposing, you also have no objective basis upon which to make such an assertion, a hypothesis should atleast have _some_ justification.  If the researchers _believe_ this product is signalling stem cells _already in the scalp_ to produce new hairs per follicular unit, then that is a contention I would prefer to support as researchers only make such assertions if they are theoretically plausible whence referring to the literature, which is exactly what Histogen do.

WNT 7A has been shown in animal models to GROW TOTALLY NEW HAIRS IN BALD MICE - (LITERALLY MICE WITH NO HAIRS).  It did not achieve this through ANY of the mechanisms you are proposing here, I suggest you do a little research on what WNT proteins really are, and the power behind them, these arnt your run-of-the-mill compounds believe me.

----------


## UK_

> No, I haven't.  But it's always something that should be considered when the "before" pictures have a fair amount of hair in them to begin with:


 So what?  The study was conducted on patients right up to NW6, who _did_ responded to treatment, so if this product does come through, we could have a potential treatment for ALL stages of hair loss.  What you see in those pictures is not of importance, your eyes will never tell a clearer story than the statistical measurements/results that form the real substance of the success of this study.  

If this is the method you are using to subvert the results of HSC, then please exit this thread and visit:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/30...ly_7_days.html

According to your logic, this product has more viability than HSC.

----------


## RichardDawkins

@gmonasco : Its easy, those hairs have been "dead" before so it would be highly unlikely that a small injection could get them to actually start their cycling again (considering HSC would fail as you put it)

And the other thing is, even with regards to your concearns, to me it seems that the worst case would be hair, which succumbs to DHT again after the initial amount of years, it took this hair to succumb in the first place.

But this life span would be also expanded becaus DHT concentration decreases over years.

----------


## GBB

> @gmonasco : Its easy, those hairs have been "dead" before so it would be highly unlikely that a small injection could get them to actually start their cycling again (considering HSC would fail as you put it)
> 
> And the other thing is, even with regards to your concearns, to me it seems that the worst case would be hair, which succumbs to DHT again after the initial amount of years, it took this hair to succumb in the first place.
> 
> But this life span would be also expanded becaus DHT concentration decreases over years.


 Amidst all this happy talk (and I sincerely do believe Histogen has the pieces to the puzzle), I am really worried that there has been no news about the Singapore trials till date. I read somewhere that it starts in May now. The Web site still says spring though. Isn't May summer? The trials have already been pushed back twice, and we really don't know whats going on. 
I had received a prompt reply from Histogen when I had written to them earlier, of late though, information is a little hard to get.

Also, as someone pointed out earlier, a roughly 40% increase in hair count happened to the best responder. If the average increase in absolute hair count was around 15%(according to the graph), what was the increase in the number of terminal hairs? Do people with more advanced stages of hair loss respond any better or worse?

----------


## Sogeking

Actually May is in spring. Spring has started yesterday and will end on 21st of June. Well that is by calendar, astronomical spring started on Mar 20 @2321 UTC. And meterological on 1st of March  :Big Grin: .
However they were constantly saying early spring. For me that is end of March and April... And now we hear it is May?

Anyways I'm concerned about this silence myself. 
So basically I just want them to start with the clinical trials. I guess we'll have to wait for May...




> The next clinical trial of HSC is currently in planning stages, and is scheduled to begin in Singapore in early 2011, with plans for pan-Asian approval in 2014. Estimated U.S. market introduction of the injectable for hair regrowth in the treatment of male pattern baldness is 2015, with potential for earlier introduction in certain identified countries.

----------


## GBB

Well, actually sometime last year they had said Feb 2011 in an email. 
Anyway, Doc Z has also dissapeared from this thread.. :Confused:

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Well, actually sometime last year they had said Feb 2011 in an email. 
> Anyway, Doc Z has also dissapeared from this thread..


 Well hopefully he is lagging because he has the cure and doesn't have the words to express his joy haha. Honestly, I don't have a good feeling about this. Im hoping someone will come out with the cure out of nowhere. Follica seems to be very quiet and rarely share anything. Aderans as well. Histogen is putting pressure on everyone, so it seems logical to think everyone else might be right behind or ahead, who knows. Maybe not. Im just tired.

----------


## HairTalk

I do think Dr. Ziering should come on to share information with us, even if nothing new is available (at least tell us that's the case). It's unfortunate everyone's sitting around in uncomfortable expectation, as it was announced something would be shared by this time.

----------


## UK_

I havn't got a good feeling about this either lol.

----------


## Mojo Risin

It's pretty obvious that nothing is going to be announced.

Hey guys, guess what, we're still 5 years away ! 

So tired of all that bullshit.

----------


## CVAZBAR

We need Spencer to find out what's cracking since he has the connects.

----------


## GBB

> We need Spencer to find out what's cracking since he has the connects.


 Absolutely. Any news whether good or bad will be appreciated.

----------


## gmonasco

Maybe the test subjects sprouted so many new hairs that it's taking them an extra-long time to count them all ...

----------


## UK_

Or maybe it was so successful it hit market on monday and the doctors are rushed off their feet curing hundreds of bald singaporean nationals.

I was thinking of going to sleep for five years, atleast I wouldn't have to be consciously aware of all this hit/hope n miss all the time and it would seem like no time has past, its the fastest route to knowing.

----------


## CVAZBAR

I'm hoping to find a magic lamp and use my first wish to have great hair forever. I probably have a better chance finding that than waiting for a cure.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well if we alll agree then lets move on to other stuff :-)

----------


## GBB

> I was thinking of going to sleep for five years, atleast I wouldn't have to be consciously aware of all this hit/hope n miss all the time and it would seem like no time has past, its the fastest route to knowing.


  :Smile:  Two days back, i posted the exacted same thing as my status message on a social networking site.

Anyway, I heard from them. It is still 'forward-looking' happy stuff, but at least they have not vanished.

_Dear XXX, 
Thank you for your continued interest. The Phase I/II trial of HSC is on track to begin in Singapore this Spring. While we do not plan to post any information on the website before the trial begins, we will be sending an email distribution to those on our HSC interest list within the next few days. Please keep an eye out for that, and feel free to contact me if I can answer any questions. 

Best, 
Eileen_

----------


## UK_

> Two days back, i posted the exacted same thing as my status message on a social networking site.
> 
> Anyway, I heard from them. It is still 'forward-looking' happy stuff, but at least they have not vanished.
> 
> _Dear XXX, 
> Thank you for your continued interest. The Phase I/II trial of HSC is on track to begin in Singapore this Spring. While we do not plan to post any information on the website before the trial begins, we will be sending an email distribution to those on our HSC interest list within the next few days. Please keep an eye out for that, and feel free to contact me if I can answer any questions. 
> 
> Best, 
> Eileen_


 Great!  Are you on that list?  I wonder what information is contained in the email, I doubt it will be the exploratory cases, but who knows, maybe it is, why are they only sharing with people on that list?

Well the trial begins in May, so we should see initial results at the end of August.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Hmmmm right now i begin to think that they really got it figured out but they are gonna nail those distribution channels like dermatologists etc to get the mass market.

I mean security was cleared, then they saw with minor dosage resiting hairs etc. I think right now they are only testing higher dosages and talk to clinics and/or dermatologists to get a headstart.

You know ari has the latter part already done so it would be plausible for Histogen to do exactly this.

----------


## CAlex

RichardDawkins really? u You are positive now?

I was going the opposite way. I thought a lot of people were now doubting histogens initial set of numbers(84 new hairs over a 1.47cm2 area ) as just the best numbers of the bunch and did not reflect the majority of the patients that were given the hsc ****tail.

All the waiting and never actually knowing anything is starting to wear on me. At this point I have no idea if histogen is making progress or will just be a slight improvement over minox if they even make it to market in 2013-14.

Initially after those numbers came out about how many new hairs hsc was able to generate over such a small area I thought they would be more aiming/delivering a "cure"/close to original density but now I am unsure of anything.

----------


## KeepHoping

I'm stunned by how negative people are about this... I think if you have a lot of vellus hairs sticking around and you save them for as long as you can this is in fact the "magic bullet" it will send you back to the density you want.  They have presented (by far) the best results thus far AND with only one injection and a small dose, with multiple injections and higher doses you could have an ever better result and most likely will.

----------


## Gubter_87

> I mean security was cleared, then they saw with minor dosage resiting hairs etc. I think right now they are only testing higher dosages and talk to clinics and/or dermatologists to get a headstart.


 Come on now. To be saying that this treatment is cleared for safety before they have even entered phase 1/2 trials, where the main objective is to test the safety, is just ignorant.
Just because Dr. Ziering said that no serious side effects have been reported yet, does not make this a safe treatment. It needs to be tested on a much larger amount of people before one can draw any conclusions from it.

Some people were fine on vioxx, others died of heart attacks. Would you say that was a safe treatment after having just tested it on people who were fine on it?

Optimism is good. But there is no point in jumping any guns or fooling oneself.

----------


## Sogeking

Medical trials are a must have for any drug. I would rather wait for 5 years and get a safe drug or treatment to use, than risk it in a year. There is no point in having hair if you contract a serious ailment IMHO...

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yes i am positive because even if they would "fail" they could easily sell their HSC they have right now, as well to hairloss sufferers.

Its btw very sad that they did not perform a multi continent trial like in Europe, america etc.

I see it from the following perspective, if you would get 85 hairs per Penny ( :Smile: ) this would help a lot of people to get their original density with an normal hair transplant.

WHat i personally wish for is, a hair transplant technique which works like that what Gho claims, so you could get a nice frontal hairline like you personally wish (without depleating your donor) and after your personal Whatever you like restauration run you could use somethin like HSC for the rest to fill and to stop hairloss.

Just think for one second, why out of the blue a lot of other docs jump on the Acell and Plucking train :-) because they know, that if it works as it should, there is an infinite market for this.

Just assume you got 10.000k to spend and you are NW5. And hairplucking works or lets say something like Gho HM-FUE works. What would you do?

I bet everyone here in that position would grab the money and get to a trusted doc to get the frontal area fixed like there is no tomorrow.

I would do it without thinking, as long as my donor would be intact after the treatment. This is to me a permanent solution where the factor "Uncertainity" is eradicated.

But would i opt for FUT or FUE (without the chance of donor saving) ? Hell no, its always better to be safe then sorry. Sometimes i just think one thing for myself

Lets assume that this Bobman (H&W patient) would have been treted with something like Acel and donor preserving. Man this guy would far more then he is today, be the poster boy for a cure.

I can only say, the next best thing or the final solution (bad word i know) in hair transplant technology will definitely be plucking and/or something like Ghos FUE-HM.

And HSC and co will play an important rule as a hairloss stopping treatment.

Just look at the developments over the last 5 years. And i repeat myself here but in the beginning nobody would have believe that FUE will one day become a standard. And lets see, in the beginning there were shotgun scars after FUE. Then some docs witnessed regrow in donor areas. And now with the use of Acell its impossible to see if someone had a FUE transplant done because the donor looks intact (thats what even Dr Cole witnessed)

----------


## CAlex

how do you speak about fue or any ht as a "cure" even if they could clone you 100k of hairs. If they need to be transplanted in it will not look anywhere near natural.

the major ht issue are not just donor supply. The hairs grow weird(color, texture, direction etc)

I hope histogen does good in thier trials this spring and is able to be released in 2018 
)

----------


## gmonasco

> with multiple injections and higher doses you could have an ever better result and most likely will.


 Or with multiple injections and higher doses you won't get any improvement at all.  Nobody really knows yet.

----------


## gmonasco

> how do you speak about fue or any ht as a "cure" even if they could clone you 100k of hairs. If they need to be transplanted in it will not look anywhere near natural.


 I see it as being along the same lines as insulin -- it isn't a "cure," or a "perfect" or "natural" solution to diabetes,  but it still allows those who have diabetes to lead reasonably normal lives.  That's a pretty good outcome.

----------


## HairTalk

> Hmmmm right now i begin to think that they really got it figured out but they are gonna nail those distribution channels like dermatologists etc to get the mass market.
> 
> I mean security was cleared, then they saw with minor dosage resiting hairs etc. I think right now they are only testing higher dosages and talk to clinics and/or dermatologists to get a headstart.
> 
> You know ari has the latter part already done so it would be plausible for Histogen to do exactly this.


 You think Histogen is trying to "nail distribution channels [...] to get the mass market"? They haven't even _begun_ clinical trials, yet (what's been conducted is a pilot study), and you feel they're right now figuring ways to get their product into the market? This is something other than "hopefulness" or "optimism," altogether.

----------


## gmonasco

> Come on now. To be saying that this treatment is cleared for safety before they have even entered phase 1/2 trials, where the main objective is to test the safety, is just ignorant.


 In this case it's like giving a handful of people each a single cigarette to smoke, then after they report no ill effects immediately afterwards, declaring it's been established that there is no link between smoking and cancer.

----------


## UK_

> You think Histogen is trying to "nail distribution channels [...] to get the mass market"? They haven't even _begun_ clinical trials, yet (what's been conducted is a pilot study), and you feel they're right now figuring ways to get their product into the market? This is something other than "hopefulness" or "optimism," altogether.


 Yeah... I agree... that was a repulsively moronic comment.

----------


## Purple Glow

> I'm stunned by how negative people are about this... I think if you have a lot of vellus hairs sticking around and you save them for as long as you can this is in fact the "magic bullet" it will send you back to the density you want.  They have presented (by far) the best results thus far AND with only one injection and a small dose, with multiple injections and higher doses you could have an ever better result and most likely will.


 I don't even care about the density.  If they can offer enough hair that someone can just add a little nanogen every day to add the density you need, that's a baldness cure, imo.

----------


## nature

> Histogen is performing exploratory case studies in Asia where patients are receiving 50+ injections at base line to assess hair growth over time. The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.    
> 
> Doc Z


 What doc Z mean whit that 50+ injections at base line.One man or all people in this study?? Larger area of baseline or baseline size from last preclinical study??
What do you thing?

----------


## UK_

> What doc Z mean whit that 50+ injections at base line.One man or all people in this study?? Larger area of baseline or baseline size from last preclinical study??
> What do you thing?


 50 patients/subjects, they wouldn't jump from one injection to 50, God knows what type of mutated super-hair that would create.

----------


## Spanish Dude

@UK:
It clearly looks to me like they are giving 50+ injections per patient.
There is a wrong idea floating around that HSC consists of a single injection affecting the whole scalp. This is not true. A single injection grows hair only in a small area around it.





> Histogen is performing exploratory case studies in Asia where *patients are receiving 50+ injections at base line* to assess hair growth over time. The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.    
> 
> Doc Z

----------


## CAlex

spanish dude is correct.

The growth results were seen in an area of 2mm outward from the injection sites. I think i am going to take a time off from these sites. things are moving slow in a day to day way so I will check back in 6 months. Coming on here day in for the next 2-5 years is no way to stay sane.

see you all in a while

----------


## RichardDawkins

Totally agree, i will from now on only check my emails if someone answered one of those threads here, because its not about the sanity its more about the exitement which is killing me :-)

But Spanish Dude is correct the will inject more, and if they can get more hairs by more and closer injections, you guys should book the flight to asia.

So for now i bid my temporary farewell, got plenty of stuff to do, university, body shaping and life enjoying in general

----------


## CVAZBAR

Dr Z actually replied to another thread, so I'm assuming he knows we've been waiting for the Histogen report. I Wonder why he has not replied here. Very strange.

----------


## normalguy1

I know that everyone is excited about this, but does anyone else feel like is starting to sound like a big investor scam?  I feel like I have heard different people saying the same thing for a really long time now.  Where are the links to their entries in medical journals?  They do, however, have a a sketchy link to a "top investments of 2011" on their homepage.  Why not anything in Businessweek or Forbes?  Does anyone else feel the same way?

----------


## UK_

> I know that everyone is excited about this, but does anyone else feel like is starting to sound like a big investor scam?  I feel like I have heard different people saying the same thing for a really long time now.  Where are the links to their entries in medical journals?  They do, however, have a a sketchy link to a "top investments of 2011" on their homepage.  Why not anything in Businessweek or Forbes?  Does anyone else feel the same way?


 A scam in the hair loss industry?  Never! :Big Grin:

----------


## luis

I understand what you say normalguy1, you never see anything about these type of research in magazines, newspapers or TV news.
Something this big should have attracted some attention by now, from at least scientific magazines... :Confused: 
A lot of these "cures" sound like scams, or they really aren't transparent enough with their techniques and results..
Hope not though  :Smile:

----------


## mlao

I think we all have some level of faith in Histogen but it's early days for them. I read somewhere that large drug companies spend anywhere from 800 million to 2 billion to develop a new drug and get it to market. The people at Histogen are euphoric when somebody gives them 10 million. so I think that the most recent round of publicity was an effort to get more investors. If they really have something they need to produce pictures akin to the ones that were shown by companies like Merck for propecia and the like GSK for Avodart. Lets hope the next round of trials produce something more exciting than that one picture that has never been properly explained by the company.
Or here's another thought maybe the reason Jason Gardiner's procedure looked so good and cost so much is that Dr. Zering smuggled out some HSC and used it on him. lol

----------


## CVAZBAR

How can this be all over tv or magazines if they still have much to prove? If this is a good as the pre trials or better, once they finish the trials in Asia, I'm sure we will see Histogen everywhere.

----------


## UK_

Anyone have any idea of when these exploratory case study results are coming in? :Big Grin: 

They should be due now its been a month _*looks at watch*_

----------


## gmonasco

> Why not anything in Businessweek or Forbes?


 Because they haven't grown hair on mice yet, just people.

----------


## KeepTheHair

> Because they haven't grown hair on mice yet, just people.


 lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

----------


## RichardDawkins

Actually i am wondering myself, why are comapnys who only grew hair on mice, always in the news while others who grew hair on people are not.

Funny media

----------


## gmonasco

> Actually i am wondering myself, why are comapnys who only grew hair on mice, always in the news while others who grew hair on people are not.


 Probably because no one has demonstrably grown a significant amount of hair on a person yet.

----------


## nature

I have receding hairline ,so what would be the best treatment(without propecia) for receding hairline(especially temples).I just want to *maintain* what i have now or* just slow down* this process.So if i could save my hairline for 4 years i would be very happy because in 2015. HSC might be at market somewhere in the world.
It is proven that HSC works at maintaining hair but i'm very sceptical about growing new hair on completely bald spots.

----------


## UK_

> I have receding hairline ,so what would be the best treatment(without propecia) for receding hairline(especially temples).I just want to *maintain* what i have now or* just slow down* this process.So if i could save my hairline for 4 years i would be very happy because in 2015. HSC might be at market somewhere in the world.
> It is proven that HSC works at maintaining hair but i'm very sceptical about growing new hair on completely bald spots.


 lol Ill say, thats a HUGE _*might*_ for there to be a universal cure for MPB by 2014, you're talking miracles and looking at the track record of 'pipeline' treatments I wouldn't bet a penny on it happening within that time.  The hair loss community is _always_ let down, thats been a fact of reality for the past 30 years :Cool: .

----------


## gmonasco

> It is proven that HSC works at maintaining hair but i'm very sceptical about growing new hair on completely bald spots.


 At this point, it hasn't been proved that HSC does anything.

----------


## nature

So what would be possible timeline(2018.) and what kind of results can we expect? They showed that stronger version of HSC solution have better results then others.It could be very possible that higher dosage and more injections would give better results. Sorry for my bad english  :Big Grin:

----------


## Flowers

I don't know the complete details on HSC treatment but doesn't it sound weird to anyone the whole idea of more injections and more treatment? I mean couldn't there be some kind of backlash from getting excessive treatment? I don't know why no one is talking about this

----------


## luis

To be honest no one really knows the details about HSC cuz they don't really release any results. I understand their position, it's a business secret after all. Giving details about the product and results would be losing the opportunity to become first to market with a cure for MPB.
But I'm dying to get any updates!!!

Also, since we're playing around with cell multiplication and stuff, I'd like to know if the people tested for the first phase are still under tight monitoring for possible tumor growth. That's what scares me the most, but hopefully nothing bad will happen  :Smile:

----------


## gmonasco

> They showed that stronger version of HSC solution have better results then others.


 That hasn't been demonstrated yet.

----------


## bostonhooligan

Looks like the Histogen folks are presenting some data in May at a conference.  It's unclear if this is new data to us, but could be.

World Congress of Dermatology
May 24-29, 2011
Seoul, Korea
Dr. Jonathan Mansbridge to present "Clinical evaluation of hypoxic fibroblast secreted proteins to induce hair growth in androgenetic alopecia"

http://histogen.com/aboutus/news.htm#event1

----------


## UK_

> Looks like the Histogen folks are presenting some data in May at a conference.  It's unclear if this is new data to us, but could be.
> 
> World Congress of Dermatology
> May 24-29, 2011
> Seoul, Korea
> Dr. Jonathan Mansbridge to present "Clinical evaluation of hypoxic fibroblast secreted proteins to induce hair growth in androgenetic alopecia"
> 
> http://histogen.com/aboutus/news.htm#event1


 Probably just what they plan to do for their Phase I/II.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Hope they blast our socks off :-)

----------


## UK_

Forget hair loss, anyone seen this?

http://www.ttkn.com/health/ibn-and-i...ugs-10166.html

More developments from Singapore, IBM team up with Singapore institute for nano/biotech to destroy drug-resistant strains of bacteria (e.g. possible treatment for MRSA).

----------


## UK_

Hair loss cure?  Dont hold your breath:



"Experimenting with mice, scientists determined that “dormant follicular stem cells can be stimulated to cause the regeneration of hair,” Green writes. Luis Garza, an author of the study, tells Green: 


_"I think it’s very likely that by the end of your lifetime, there will be a pill or a cream, kind of like there is for Viagra, which your insurance [might not] cover and you might have to apply repeatedly—but yeah, it’ll keep your hair growing"_

Read More:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...#ixzz1J8IuE6Mc

So if you're 30 - in another 30 years there 'could' be a cure lol.

Just gets better - doesn't it? 

My prediction is that for the next 30 - 40 years they'll keep coming out with the same ol' "another 5 years, another 5 years, another 5 years" until we finally get a treatment that is way overpriced and requires repeat application.

----------


## Ryuk

I think we should try and keep this thread on topic (i.e. Histogen's HSC).  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## UK_

> I think we should try and keep this thread on topic (i.e. Histogen's HSC).


 Guess you didnt read the article, ma'right?

This _is_ related to Histogen as Histogen are developing a similar procedure to Garza _et al_ (Follica) they are both working on the reactivation of existing stem cells, one party says it will be here in 5 years, the other party says 30 years, sorry if that deeper analysis passed you by.

An example of how it relates to Histogen:

I hope the only reason he mentioned 30 years (end of your lifetime) is the fact that US/European drug approval times usually take a decade and more, in that case perhaps Histogen would be able to pull it off quicker as they are in Asia, and they have already started phase I.

----------


## CVAZBAR

I remember Doc Z saying they were comfortable with the concentration applied but I wonder how they came up with that dosage and why not test what it could do with a higher concentration. Maybe they will after they get more info on safety but it makes me think if more would make a difference.

----------


## Ryuk

> Guess you didnt read the article, ma'right?
> 
> This _is_ related to Histogen as Histogen are developing a similar procedure to Garza _et al_ (Follica) they are both working on the reactivation of existing stem cells, one party says it will be here in 5 years, the other party says 30 years, sorry if that deeper analysis passed you by.
> 
> An example of how it relates to Histogen:
> 
> I hope the only reason he mentioned 30 years (end of your lifetime) is the fact that US/European drug approval times usually take a decade and more, in that case perhaps Histogen would be able to pull it off quicker as they are in Asia, and they have already started phase I.


 You could say anything about hairloss is related to Histogen if you were to be pedantic. This thread is specifically about Histogen's HSC and Dr. Craig L. Ziering providing us with the latest info and answering our questions about it.

The article you posted just contains a comment from Luis Garza, who is merely an author of a study going at a university. He's not working on creating anything, he's not part of a company looking to bring something to market. It's just a study on the specifics of male pattern baldness. 

There's no mention of this "Follica" in the article you posted or in the source article the comments are taken from.

It's merely a professor giving his two cents. There's a very good chance there will be a cure in about 30 years so it's a safe claim to make. It's nothing to really take note of. He's not telling us anything we didn't already know.

The release of the results of the trials taking part in Singapore next month is when we'll get to see if Histogen are on course to hit their targeted dates.




> Forget hair loss, anyone seen this?
> 
> http://www.ttkn.com/health/ibn-and-i...ugs-10166.html
> 
> More developments from Singapore, IBM team up with Singapore institute for nano/biotech to destroy drug-resistant strains of bacteria (e.g. possible treatment for MRSA).


 I suppose you're gonna tell me this is related to Histogen due to it being in Singapore and Histogen doing trials in Singapore? 

 :Wink:

----------


## ThinFast

> I suppose you're gonna tell me this is related to Histogen due to it being in Singapore and Histogen doing trials in Singapore?


 Yes, IBM will unleash Watson to find a cure for MPB.  It will only take him .0004 seconds to discover the cure, but another "10 years" to make it, test it and get it to pass FDA approval.  Back on topic, I'm very excited to see anything that comes out of this May conference.

----------


## UK_

> You could say anything about hairloss is related to Histogen if you were to be pedantic. This thread is specifically about Histogen's HSC and Dr. Craig L. Ziering providing us with the latest info and answering our questions about it.


 Well yeah but there is only one other company developing a similar procedure to Histogen, and whudyaknow - its the one I was on about :Big Grin: guess I wasnt being "pedantic" after all.

They are both working with WNT proteins, one party says 5 years the other says 30, Garza is not just "an author" he was a member of the research conducted at the beginning of this year on the presence of stem cells in bald scalps. Id like to know the credentials held by you that seem to encourage this bloated self-efficacy you harbour in determining the credibility of researchers you haven’t the slightest clue about.

If you dont like my posts, theres nothing much your gonna do about it - ma'right? :Wink:

----------


## Ryuk

> Well yeah but there is only one *other company* developing a similar procedure to Histogen, and whudyaknow - its the one I was on about


 What other company? You've provided absolutely no information about this "other company". There is no other company mentioned in what you originally posted, just a study being done at a university. There's no company related to this study, no product, absolutely nothing comparable to Histogen at all.

Why haven't you shown me where Follica was mentioned in the article? Why haven't you shown me anything at all that says that Garza is working for this company called Follica? Is it because you just made that bit up?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> Garza is not just "an author" he was a member of the research conducted at the beginning of this year on the presence of stem cells in bald scalps. Id like to know the credentials held by you that seem to encourage this bloated self-efficacy you harbour in determining the credibility of researchers you haven’t the slightest clue about.


 I merely pointed out that he is just a researcher at a univesity, not someone working on a product like you have falsey claimed multiple times in this thread. Your entire argument against the fact that your post was offtopic and had has no place in this thread was that your post was about a company working on the same thing that Histogen are working on. This is false, there is no other company mentioned in the article posted. You posted the comments of a guy heading up a university study and tried to pass it off as something more than what it was.




> If you dont like my posts, theres nothing much your gonna do about it - ma'right?


 Simply pointing out how stupid they are seems to be working well enough - ma'right? :Wink:

----------


## UK_

> What other company? You've provided absolutely no information about this "other company". There is no other company mentioned in what you originally posted, just a study being done at a university. There's no company related to this study, no product, absolutely nothing comparable to Histogen at all.
> 
> Why haven't you shown me where Follica was mentioned in the article? Why haven't you shown me anything at all that says that Garza is working for this company called Follica? Is it because you just made that bit up?


 The point of this discussion utterly overrides the simple fact that you cannot tell people how to talk on this thread, you have no authority to do so, you are just _"a member"_, so I urge you to not to take the law into your own hands but report my _"awful behaviour"_ to a moderator, you do know how to use online forums right?  I am guessing you're really not the drooling labotomized laborious drone you keep making yourself out to be. Whether it be about companies developing treatments for hair loss or treatments being developed by IBM, rather than sit there and mock me like the sanctimonious **** you really are; realise you have no authority to directly control what I say, and understand there is nothing you can do about it, perhaps now you'll move on and get over this whole _"Garza doesn't work for Follica which doesn't make his comment credible at all" yadda yadda yadda yadda_ garbage you keep clinging on to.

George Cotsarelis and Luis Garza BOTH conducted research at The Department of Dermatology, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine.  Do you not think his close work with a member of the advisory board from Follica would have atleast influenced his comment?  Before you go any further, can you prove/defend this with objective evidence?  How do you square this pointless and baseless assertion with the fact that Cotsarelis has also come forward and stated a cure might be here _"within DECADES"_.  

This research was one of the key findings associated with the current development of procedures being conducted by Follica.  When Luis Garza is talking about _"a cure"_ he is referring to the reactivation of those dormant stem cells in the scalp (that he was studying), does it also not occur to you that Follica is THE ONLY company in America currently working on such a method?  It also states in the article _"pointing to a recent study"_, so his comment was made on the basis of this study, so, I believe it suffice to conclude that George Cotsarelis' comment regarding a treatment being available _"within decades"_ and Garzas comment about a treatment being available _"by the end of your lifetime"_ are both based upon these findings, and we can also tie that to the fact that Follica, being the ONLY COMPANY in America to be working on the treatment, has currently the ONLY opportunity of making the two aformentioned comments a reality.

But there is no need to go so deep into this discussion, the underlying point of this reply is that you have no right to tell me how to talk on this forum, if you are unhappy with my posts, send a little email with all your boring moaning contained to a moderator cause frankly, I dont wanna hear it.

----------


## Ryuk

> I am guessing you're really not the drooling labotomized laborious drone you keep making yourself out to be.


 Labotmized? I think you mean lobotomized. Actually, if you're British then you really mean lobotimised. You should learn to spell words correctly before you use them, especially when using them in an attempt to insult others. Otherwise you'll just end up making yourself look stupid.  :Wink: 

But you are right in saying that there is no need to go so deep into this discussion, there's actually is no discussion to be had. You were taking this thread off topic (Histogen's HSC), got called out for it, were too immature to just accept it, so made feeble attempt upon feeble attempt to try and prove yourself right (even going as far to make things up in an effort to support your argument).

I know you like to make posts for the sake of it just to try and get attention but that's not very considerate of others who will view this thread to get updates on Histogen's HSC. Just try and keep things on topic in future, is it really that hard?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Maybe you could even post some questions for Dr. Ziering to answer? 

That'd be on topic and could actually prove to be informative for the rest of us.

----------


## UK_

> Labotmized? I think you mean lobotomized. Actually, if you're British then you really mean lobotimised. You should learn to spell words correctly before you use them, especially when using them in an attempt to insult others. Otherwise you'll just end up making yourself look stupid. 
> 
> But you are right in saying that there is no need to go so deep into this discussion, there's actually is no discussion to be had. You were taking this thread off topic (Histogen's HSC), got called out for it, were too immature to just accept it, so made feeble attempt upon feeble attempt to try and prove yourself right (even going as far to make things up in an effort to support your argument).
> 
> I know you like to make posts for the sake of it just to try and get attention but that's not very considerate of others who will view this thread to get updates on Histogen's HSC. Just try and keep things on topic in future, is it really that hard? 
> 
> Maybe you could even post some questions for Dr. Ziering to answer? 
> 
> That'd be on topic and could actually prove to be informative for the rest of us.


 


> You could say anything about hairloss is related to Histogen if you were to be pedantic. This thread is specifically about Histogen's HSC and Dr. Craig L. Ziering providing us with the latest info and answering our questions about it.


 Says the person who thinks _"hairloss"_ is one word?

I didnt wish to bring that up, but if you want to be so _"pedantic"_ about it then... lol :Wink: 

Send your complaint to the mod, because you haven’t the power to control what people post on these boards you platitudinous bore.

----------


## Ryuk

> Says the person who thinks _"hairloss"_ is one word?
> 
> I didnt wish to bring that up, but if you want to be so _"pedantic"_ about it then... lol
> 
> Send your complaint to the mod, because you haven’t the power to control what people post on these boards you platitudinous bore.


 Hairloss is so a word! They just haven't added to the dictionaries yet.  :Wink: 

Don't worry, they'll catch up eventually.  :Big Grin: 

How am I trying to control what people post? I haven't told you not to post anything. I've just suggested that it's not productive to everyone else when you take the thread away from it's intended discussion.

Platitudinous bore? That's hilarious seeing as you're the one who's trying to bore everybody to tears by posting information nobody here is interested in reading. 

I mean, you're the guy who posted "Forget hair loss" on a hairloss forum! How ridiculous is that?  :Big Grin: 

Now, we can continue this petty and pointless back and forth exchange OR we can actually get back to talking about Histogen? What do you reckon?


"We are starting phase 1/2 in Singapore before the end of May and hope to have phase 3 pan-Asian data by Sept 2012 for an NDA submission and 2013 approval. (hopefull Q2 2013)."

So do you think we'll see the results from phase 1/2 before the end of the year?

----------


## CVAZBAR

I hope everything goes well or better than expected. This and Aderans are the only two I have some faith in. I'm losing the battle real fast but knowing this will work, would make me feel much better.

----------


## ThinFast

Ryuk, there's no point in arguing with UK.  I've read through most of his posts and believe his only intent on these boards is to clutter threads by attempting to insult members, posting assumptions as facts, and give out the overplayed, rebellious "you can't tell me what to do" line.  

I personally find his "logic" very flawed in this argument.  Unless of course Histogen has taken a new and entirely contrarian marketing approach, where their associates predict a cure in 30+ years while Follica is simultaneously promoted as a highly effective product available to the public in just a few years.  Now there's a marketing strategy that would probably not be duplicated again.

----------


## UK_

> Ryuk, there's no point in arguing with UK.  I've read through most of his posts and believe his only intent on these boards is to clutter threads by attempting to insult members, posting assumptions as facts, and give out the overplayed, rebellious "you can't tell me what to do" line.  
> 
> I personally find his "logic" very flawed in this argument.  Unless of course Histogen has taken a new and entirely contrarian marketing approach, where their associates predict a cure in 30+ years while Follica is simultaneously promoted as a highly effective product available to the public in just a few years.  Now there's a marketing strategy that would probably not be duplicated again.


 ...._*yawn*_

----------


## RichardDawkins

So back to toppic here. Is anyone attending the congress in May? Where Histogen or some representatives are gonna talk about their stuff?

----------


## Mojo Risin

If it's the same kind of congress in which Aderans was participating in late March ... it won't be very interesting and there won't be any new stuff.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Can you say this for sure? Or are you making assumptions?  :Wink:

----------


## HairTalk

Any updates? I've heard the next phase of testing on H.S.C. has been moved, now, to June, 2011, but I'm unsure if this is correct.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Where you got those informations?

----------


## CVAZBAR

If this is true, not a big deal from May to June. Just start this already

----------


## HairTalk

> Where you got those informations?


 From an unconfirmed source, which is why I asked for verification from someone who might have definite word of what's going on. Could Spencer maybe look into this? It seems all the doctors abandoned this forum several weeks ago...

----------


## LarryDavid

Where are the photos Ziering promised to show the community?

----------


## UK_

> Where are the photos Ziering promised to show the community?


 Yep, exactly.  This does not look good, no photos and the trials have been pushed back, I hope the team are doing well but this cant be good news.

Please for the love of God Aderans, Histogen put an end to this horrid affliction.

----------


## CVAZBAR

I wonder why Spencer doesn't bring this up in the show. He has to know something. What's going on with Histogen?????

----------


## UK_

Dunno but im getting kinda used to the unfulfilled promises of the hair loss industry now anyway.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Dunno but im getting kinda used to the unfulfilled promises of the hair loss industry now anyway.


 I know we are all desperate for trials to star but why is there panic for trials moving from May to June? Do they mean June 2012?

----------


## UK_

> I know we are all desperate for trials to star but why is there panic for trials moving from May to June? Do they mean June 2012?


 If its 2012 im serious, I give up.

Im not gonna follow these forums month to month hoping for an update that never comes, atleast tell us you cant give us an update at the moment instead of keeping everyone waiting for 2 months.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> If its 2012 im serious, I give up.
> 
> Im not gonna follow these forums month to month hoping for an update that never comes, atleast tell us you cant give us an update at the moment instead of keeping everyone waiting for 2 months.


 Nah **** that! If this is moved to 2012, I'll start a riot. I'm still hoping for the release 2013 in Asia if all goes well. Like you said, we can't be checking everyday for something that will never come. WHATS GOING ON WITH HISTOGEN????????

----------


## GBB

> I know we are all desperate for trials to star but why is there panic for trials moving from May to June? Do they mean June 2012?


 Well, according to their official communication some 3 weeks back, it was supposed to start in May. In any case, we should wait for the conference in Derm conference in May to figure out if anything is going to move forward at all.

----------


## UK_

Yeah and we still have Aderans' results to see yet, it cant be all bad news - no news is good news right? :Big Grin:

----------


## RichardDawkins

WHO and from WHERE did guys here have informations about some "Delay" i didnt find anything here.

Who started this rumors

----------


## UK_

But then I think of the likes of Pierluigi Santi and how they just led us all on - that was 5 years ago, back then they were saying a cure and HM will be here in 3 - 4 years, id also like to know from the horses mouth preferably regarding this delay.

I dont care if the researchers are having troubles, what I hate is clinging on to the hope with no information at all, no updates - good or bad -

----------


## Hurts

:Frown:  unfortunate times

----------


## UK_

> unfortunate times


 lol - I just dont get it though, it can't just be a matter of.. "we just havn't the capacity to cure hair loss" - think of the economic benefits such a medical cure would bring - I propose as equal or perhaps greater than the birth of the internet - I mean it would send shockwaves throughout sectors, worldwide retail outlets, clubs, bars, tourist attractions - entire service sectors would be thriving with millions upon millions of people with a new found confidence and purpose.  The only reason people "dont bother" is because they dont _seem_ to bother - but deep down EVERY sufferer would take the cure if it arrived.

It is crazy to say people arnt affected by hair loss, that is RIDICULOUS!  What people don't wanna to look their best these days?  People want to look younger, live longer and be healthier.

----------


## Hurts

> lol - I just dont get it though, it can't just be a matter of.. "we just havn't the capacity to cure hair loss" - think of the economic benefits such a medical cure would bring - I propose as equal or perhaps greater than the birth of the internet - I mean it would send shockwaves throughout sectors, worldwide retail outlets, clubs, bars, tourist attractions - entire service sectors would be thriving with millions upon millions of people with a new found confidence and purpose.  The only reason people "dont bother" is because they dont _seem_ to bother - but deep down EVERY sufferer would take the cure if it arrived.
> 
> It is crazy to say people arnt affected by hair loss, that is RIDICULOUS!  What people don't wanna to look their best these days?  People want to look younger, live longer and be healthier.


 We've known the cause for cancer for decades, yet there still isn't a proper cure. With hair loss, we kind of know the cause thanks to recent studies (I mean the faulty stem cell issue), we definiately dont know about hair as much as we do about cancer. So expecting a cure so would be a bit optimistic unfortunately  :Frown:  

But I could be and probably am wrong.

----------


## RichardDawkins

My question wasnt answered. WHO did WHERE got the informations about the delay?

----------


## HairTalk

> Sorry for my absence but this is the latest "official word" on Histogen.
> We're starting to recruit first week in June in Singapore, total of 50 pts. As a reminder each patient gets 8 injections of control and HSC anterior and posterior. The posterior gets a second set of 8 injections at week 6.
> 
> There has been limited case studies going on in Japan but they have been hampered by all the events there.
> 
> Unfortunately this stuff happens very slowly(which equally dissappoints and frustrates me ) and everyone has to be very careful with what they say and report because there are many people hanging on to every word. I know that many of my colleagues are searching for solutions and I am confident that we will bring help and hope to many hairloss sufferers but we have to be patient or we derail these projects before that really get going .
> 
> I cant respond to this thread daily but I assure you I will update you and Spencer with any new worthwhile information that I get.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for posting, Dr. Ziering. Shall we understand, then, Histogen will begin recruiting subjects for its H.S.C. trial, in June, 2011, or that the trial itself will commence at this time? If the former, on what date does Histogen expect to begin the actual study?

Also, am I correct in interpreting each of the fifty subjects you mention will serve both as a control and an experimental specimen? That is, will one side of the head receive placebo injections, and the other receive H.S.C.?

Thank you again for updating us to Histogen's plans with this compound. We wish you the best.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Thanks Dr Z :-) with people hanging on every word, you not happen to mean like competitors :-) Last time i checked this will be a hard battle in the future for HM technologies :-)

Thanks for the Update ^^

----------


## UK Boy

Hi Dr Z

Thank you for the update it's really appreciated. Is this going to alter the previous timeline much or are you still aiming for an Asian release in 2014?

----------


## UK_

> Sorry for my absence but this is the latest "official word" on Histogen.
> We're starting to recruit first week in June in Singapore, total of 50 pts. As a reminder each patient gets 8 injections of control and HSC anterior and posterior. The posterior gets a second set of 8 injections at week 6.
> 
> There has been limited case studies going on in Japan but they have been hampered by all the events there.
> 
> Unfortunately this stuff happens very slowly(which equally dissappoints and frustrates me ) and everyone has to be very careful with what they say and report because there are many people hanging on to every word. I know that many of my colleagues are searching for solutions and I am confident that we will bring help and hope to many hairloss sufferers but we have to be patient or we derail these projects before that really get going .
> 
> I cant respond to this thread daily but I assure you I will update you and Spencer with any new worthwhile information that I get.
> 
> ...


 Oh my God - thank you so much for getting back to us all!  I hope everything goes well for you and the team at Histogen.  I appreciate all of your help Dr Ziering, thank you again!

btw - great questions@HairTalk - id like info on those questions also.

Dr Naughton stated trials would begin at the end of May, I dont see the big deal of them now beginning at the start of June, I just had this horrid thought that it may be June 2012 lol.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Wow! Out of nowhere haha. Thanks Doc Z

----------


## CVAZBAR

> We've known the cause for cancer for decades, yet there still isn't a proper cure. With hair loss, we kind of know the cause thanks to recent studies (I mean the faulty stem cell issue), we definiately dont know about hair as much as we do about cancer. So expecting a cure so would be a bit optimistic unfortunately  
> 
> But I could be and probably am wrong.


 People always bring up cancer, I'm not a doc or scientist but it just don't seem like a good comparison. I assume cancer is way more complicated. Even a crap drug like Propecia has done wonders for people and studies for hair loss have been minimal. I hope it's not like cancer.

----------


## HairTalk

> We've known the cause for cancer for decades, yet there still isn't a proper cure. With hair loss, we kind of know the cause thanks to recent studies (I mean the faulty stem cell issue), we definiately dont know about hair as much as we do about cancer. So expecting a cure so would be a bit optimistic unfortunately  
> 
> But I could be and probably am wrong.


 Have we "known the cause [of] cancer for decades"? We know some of the genes involved; we know what happens to cells, and some ways in which to try to target the neoplastic ones; we know a number of carcinogens. That's reallly about it, isn't it? We don't know exactly why cancer happens to spontaneously develop in people, and we haven't any sound measures of prophylaxis.

As for hairloss, I hear a lot about D.H.T., but I'd be surprised if that turned out to be the sole cause of androgenic alopecia: D.H.T. is an endogenous product of testosterone in all human beings, yet not all of them go bald; further, it hits all hair follicles, yet only some permanently disappear. Finasteride inhibits 5-alpha reductase, thus preventing the catalysis of testosterone to D.H.T., and it seems to do a pretty good job of it; yet Propecia hardly "halts" baldness, in most men  even when it works, it seems to just help slow it down.

Ultimately, I don't feel we know a tremendous amount about either of these two phenomena, yet, and that what we do know is of reasonable, but very limited, clinical utility.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> 2014/15 or as soon as possible


 So if all goes well there's no chance for 2013? I thought I remember hearing it was possible. I guess too much time was waisted and trials won't be done by that time, I'm assuming. Man I wish it was 2013.

----------


## Latitude

Im just as anxious as the next guy looking for a better treatment, however I have a hard time believing Histogen is wasting time, time is money after all, and Im sure they would like to have a safe and effective product on the market sooner rather than later, in fact completing the trials in Asia proves this.  Lets hope it does not take too long to recruit study participants and that Dr. Ziering keeps us informed of the results as the study progresses.

----------


## Mojo Risin

I don't know why it would take time to recruit participants ... we would all help them tomorrow morning if we could.

----------


## Latitude

Im sure allot of us would like to help, however Id suspect the criteria for clinical trials is quite strict.  For example they may want to screen out anyone what may have something other than androgenic alopecia (other types of alopecias), certain age groups, certain NW patterns, pre-existing medical conditions, past treatments (Propecia, Minox, HT) and so on.  They would also need to find participants that would not hold they liable if issues or complications were to arise.  

That said Id agree with you in general, it probably 'should not' take a long time, but things always seem to take longer than one would reasonably expect.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Well of course I want safety first, that's why I said assuming everything went well. I meant time wasted, like the problems they had financially. The trials were supposed to start in 2010. I just want everything to go well. Waiting sucks.

----------


## Havok

it just means it wont be ready by 2014/2015 lol. well at least we'll know if plucked cloning will work by end of this year.

----------


## HairTalk

> it just means it wont be ready by 2014/2015 lol. well at least we'll know if plucked cloning will work by end of this year.


 Will we? Has Dr. Bernstein yet begun working on his study? Even if he has, I'd think it would be about halfway into 2012 before the results became available (that is, if the world doesn't end...   :Cool: ).

----------


## mavikabir85

First of all i am sorry for my bad english  :Big Grin: 

 We know there are lots of baldness sufferer all over the world and lots of them seeking for a cure about it. And i think Histogen is the most popular hope among the alternatives. İmagine the year is 2015 and Histogen brought HSC on the market. This is going to create a huge demand about HSC? I wonder how will this huge demand be responded by Histogen? Will be long long queue for it that will make sufferers waiting for years? Is there any Project about this situation?

Thanks!

----------


## UK_

> First of all i am sorry for my bad english 
> 
>  We know there are lots of baldness sufferer all over the world and lots of them seeking for a cure about it. And i think Histogen is the most popular hope among the alternatives. İmagine the year is 2015 and Histogen brought HSC on the market. This is going to create a huge demand about HSC? I wonder how will this huge demand be responded by Histogen? Will be long long queue for it that will make sufferers waiting for years? Is there any Project about this situation?
> 
> Thanks!


 Disregarding any patents (as I am not aware if there are any or not) I am assuming that HSC would succomb to the market pressures that impact every other drug/product, however, something that offers a _real_ treatment for hair loss, would bring unprecedented demand, the main reason why only a small percentage of people seek treatment is because there really aren’t many effective treatments on the market today.

There will also be other competitors, Aderans is also planning for 2014, Follica are also working on something, but for sure, from the way the concepts look, Histogen to me (as a consumer) looks the most attractive; 2 years with sustained new growth after ONE INJECTION? lol, and they've been good to us (the hair loss community), always keep us informed, give us updates and inform us about trials etc.  I wish them all the very best of luck for June.

----------


## Latitude

Seems Dr. Naughton is leaving her post as SDSU in order to focus on her role at Histogen, I would suggest this is a good sign.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...ess-dean-sdsu/

----------


## RichardDawkins

jop thats true. Prime Example of a business woman thats for sure

----------


## HairTalk

One more question for Dr. Ziering: what will be the balding-patterns of the fifty patients to be enrolled in Histogen's June, 2011 trial of H.S.C.? That is, do you intend to enroll men who are Norwood 7s or close to?

Thank you.

----------


## CVAZBAR

They should include all types of balding and even get a background on the patients. It would be nice to know how aggressive their balding is or was and that way we have a better idea on how well this will work on different types of balding.

----------


## Nina

I hope you're starting women trials also?

----------


## KeepHoping

Dr. Ziering,

Being a younger guy with diffuse hairloss on top the treatment Histogen is presenting seems to be the best chance for me to get my original head of hair back.  Before I say anything, I think I speak for many of us when I say that I appreciate the amount of work and attention you have given to this forum.  

My question to you is if after the next trail Histogen finds the correct dosage and how many injections are necessary to bring patients back to having a full head of hair, why not release the product in a country that has more lax rules about bringing it to market and allow consumers who want it to get the product earlier?  Many of us are diffusely thinning and time is a factor, this would give many of us a lot of hope to grow back our hair and help so many people get past this terrible problem that kills our self esteem at such a young age.  If the board won't allow it, they won't allow it but Dr. Ziering you are someone who surely understands how hairloss devastates a younger guy as I'm sure you've seen many in your office seeking an answer, I think it would be great if you could at least present the idea to Histogen and see what they say.  I personally think it's a win-win, Histogen makes more money earlier to conduct more research for a faster US market release and you give hope to many hair-loss sufferers who are struggling on a daily basis.

Thank You,
-KH

----------


## Hurts

Mate. They're not going to rush a product that's not known to be 100&#37; SAFE or proven to work untill they conduct stage 2 trials to confirm otherwise. Dr Ziering knows how balding men/women feel and has himself said MANY times on this forum, in this thread even, that he and his colleagues are doing their best to bring this product to market as soon as humanly possible. IF the product passes the trials, then it will be a matter of 1-2 years. There's no point writing posts that may potentially use up Dr. Ziering's limited forum-time (should he embark on writing answers to your questions) when there are many other questions more deserving of an answer than yours.

----------


## KeepHoping

Hurts,

What I was implying is releasing the product after the phase 1/2 trail, after safety has been confirmed.  That was the point of my post, not to cut out the phase 1/2 trials completely but rather to release the product somewhere else sooner after the 2nd trail has been completed.  It was not meant to be disrespectful but as a request for him to bring up to the board, I feel like it makes a lot of sense actually.  If safety and efficacy has been proven through the 1/2 trails , I think it makes total sense to release it in a place that has less restrictions, this should have no effect on its FDA approval in the States or in Asia.  Again, I'm not saying to release it right now before proving safety in the upcoming trails in Asia, I'm saying prove safety and efficacy and release it afterward.

----------


## CVAZBAR

After phase 1 and 2 trials, what's next? How come it will take two yrs after that to get release? What happens in phase 3?

----------


## Mojo Risin

People need to stop saying that Histogen will give them ALL THEIR HAIR BACK. It won't.

----------


## UK Boy

Not trying to be funny or start an arguement but none of us really know yet what Histogen's capable of with their end product. 

The stuff we do know is that it thickens existing hairs and also regrows new hairs with just one injection. You say it can't grow back all your hair but how can you know that yet? Who knows what they'll achieve with more than one injection and by tweeking the formular. 

I wish people on these forums didn't have to put a downer on promising break throughs all the time. As I'm sure people have said before there has to be promise for this product else the investors would have pulled out and the company would have given up on it. We've just had re-assurance that the phase I/II trials are going ahead which means things are still good until something else happens, like the product doesn't ever get to phase III can't you just let people have their optimism.

As others have also said even if this does not grow back all your hair at least it could be used with another treatment such as a hair transplant to give people a full head of hair again.

----------


## Hurts

> Hurts,
> 
> What I was implying is releasing the product after the phase 1/2 trail, after safety has been confirmed.  That was the point of my post, not to cut out the phase 1/2 trials completely but rather to release the product somewhere else sooner after the 2nd trail has been completed.  It was not meant to be disrespectful but as a request for him to bring up to the board, I feel like it makes a lot of sense actually.  If safety and efficacy has been proven through the 1/2 trails , I think it makes total sense to release it in a place that has less restrictions, this should have no effect on its FDA approval in the States or in Asia.  Again, I'm not saying to release it right now before proving safety in the upcoming trails in Asia, I'm saying prove safety and efficacy and release it afterward.


 it's just not going to be rushed mate. I feel your pain too.

----------


## UK_

> it's just not going to be rushed mate. I feel your pain too.


 I agree, we can't rush these things, otherwise they just will not pan out as we hoped, we have to have patience and let the researchers scrutinise this process.

Everyone involved in the study wants it to market as bad as you do, we are all hoping for a better treatment, we just have to hang on and be patient, it will come.

----------


## UK_

> The stuff we do know is that it thickens existing hairs and also regrows new hairs with just one injection. You say it can't grow back all your hair but how can you know that yet? Who knows what they'll achieve with more than one injection and by tweeking the formular. 
> 
> I wish people on these forums didn't have to put a downer on promising break throughs all the time. As I'm sure people have said before there has to be promise for this product else the investors would have pulled out and the company would have given up on it. We've just had re-assurance that the phase I/II trials are going ahead which means things are still good until something else happens, like the product doesn't ever get to phase III can't you just let people have their optimism.


 That's a good point, we have to acknowledge that we have just been given confirmation of phase I/II, focus on the positives I guess.

And I really believe there is something here, nobody has ever achieved this amount of growth before and had it last past the 2 year mark, it is truly revolutionary.

----------


## KeepHoping

All I'm saying is with a product like Histogens that has already gone through a successful pre-clinical trial, with a serious phase 1/2 trail, the one starting soon, proving safety and efficacy I think it's totally reasonable for the company to think about releasing the product early in other countries without a doubt and I think it's a reasonable request for me to ask Dr. Ziering to present the idea to the company presidents, I'm not asking for him to hold a gun to their heads but present the idea to their board members and see what they say.  Not only do you help the many people dealing with hairloss but the company will get huge gains to conduct furthur research to benefit more people, for hair and for other health issues.  

I would urge you guys to think about this.  2 years after a successful pre-clinical trial showing significant regrowth from one injection with no adverse effects the hair grown is still present in the scalp, this is a huge discovery.  Now if they prove with multiple injections over the entire balding scalp can reverse hair loss completely and result in huge regrowth with efficacy and safety why would it be out of the picture for potential consumers to press the company for an earlier release in another country?

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well i dont wann piss on the parade but its highly likely if they got the expected results with more injections, that they will release it sooner, at least as an expanded trial or so, with more people involved for less cash or so.

You know they could even release it today it would make a huge difference thats for sure

----------


## HairTalk

> You know they could even release it today it would make a huge difference thats for sure


 You've said that before, and I have yet to contemplate how the hell you feel the company could, right now, release a product that hasn't even entered phase-I clinical trials.

----------


## Dude77

Hi everybody,

I came across this forum while looking for some Histogen news on the internet. This thread is awesome, that's for sure...
The idea of bringing HSC to markeg earlier is great but unfortunately very unlikely. Just imagine headlines like "Mexicans used as guinea pigs to maximize profit for hair cloning company"... 
However, please forgive me if this question is too trivial but does Histogen regrow hair only were you once had it? Or in other words, could you grow a mustache right on your forehead if you wanted to? This might be important if it comes to re-designing a hairline...

----------


## KeepHoping

I think after proving safety and efficacy in a 1/2 trail and after the results from their pre-clinical trial it would be very safe and financially smart for the company to release it somewhere earlier.  People could sign disclaimers or whatnot and get the treatment.  If this upcoming trail proves safety then I would certainly get the treatment myself.  I'm not really asking to debate this, I'm more asking if Dr. Ziering could just present the idea to Histogen's board to see what they think of the idea and hope it goes through, that's all.  Don't you guys think it's worth a try?  Work with me here, I do believe Dr. Ziering is a fantastic guy for coming on this forum and answering questions, I'm just presenting an idea to him and I hope he at least gives it a shot at the next meeting he has with Histogen.

----------


## UK_

> You've said that before, and I have yet to contemplate how the hell you feel the company could, right now, release a product that hasn't even entered phase-I clinical trials.


 Lol my thoughts exactly.

----------


## KeepHoping

I agree, releasing this early may be preemptive but after proving safety and efficacy in a phase 1/2 trail, it's totally reasonable.  I also feel like the more potential consumers that push this the more likely they would be to keep the option in mind.  It would not effect the products ability to become FDA approved in the US, Asia or Europe, they could still complete their trials as planned and get the next big FDA approved treatment for hairloss AND they would make a huge amount of money from consumers to help them complete their costly studies.  The more people that support this idea, the better chance we have to get a product sooner, try and work with me if you can, don't be skeptical right off the bat, this IS feasible and I want to push for it in a respectful way because I really appreciate and respect the way Dr. Ziering has approached this forum and it's users, I'm just fed up with hairloss especially as a diffuse thinner where there aren't many options and want an option while I have most of follciles intact.

Don't just disregard and say "this won't happen" or "I doubt it can be rushed" at least try and work with me guys and lets respectfully ask Dr. Ziering to present the idea of an early release to Histogen, it can't hurt.

----------


## Mojo Risin

Honestly, why don't you just wait and see what kind of results it gives ... if you have to pay hundreds of dollars for injections that only give you a couple of hair back, I don't think I'd buy it. 

I want a CURE for my baldness, I want my hair back, not just some patchy results. I want a product that will reverse the process of balding.

I'm really sceptical how this product can give a Norwood 7 a full head of hair back ... I'm just not as positive as you guys.

PS : Sorry for my english.

----------


## KeepHoping

Mojo,

I believe this is the product that will reverse the miniturization process better than any other, believe me, what I'm saying over and over is to advocate for an early release if they produce results with EFFICACY and SAFETY in their upcoming trail.  You have nothing to lose to advocate for an earlier release but hair.  It's worth the effort and if anyone believes the same I think it would be worthy to step up and say so.

----------


## HairTalk

> Honestly, why don't you just wait and see what kind of results it gives ... if you have to pay hundreds of dollars for injections that only give you a couple of hair back, I don't think I'd buy it. 
> 
> I want a CURE for my baldness, I want my hair back, not just some patchy results. I want a product that will reverse the process of balding.
> 
> I'm really sceptical how this product can give a Norwood 7 a full head of hair back ... I'm just not as positive as you guys.
> 
> PS : Sorry for my english.


 Agreed; this is partly why I've asked Dr. Ziering whether the upcoming trial of H.S.C. will comprise subjects who show roughly a Norwood-VI class of baldness  I hope he answers.




> Mojo,
> 
> I believe this is the product that will reverse the miniturization process better than any other, believe me, what I'm saying over and over is to advocate for an early release if they produce results with EFFICACY and SAFETY in their upcoming trail.  You have nothing to lose to advocate for an earlier release but hair.  It's worth the effort and if anyone believes the same I think it would be worthy to step up and say so.


 I'm not sure what you mean, then, by advocating "early release." If the product passes safety and efficacy trials, of course it will come to market (barring an unforeseen problem getting it released). Until and unless that happens, it should not.

----------


## CVAZBAR

A cure for baldness? If that's the case, You should probably check in this forum once every 3 yrs or so. That's not going to happen any time soon. Literally reversing baldness from nw7 to full head is a long shot at this point. Now if Histogen has the ability to halt progression and thicken existing hair, that alone would be something great. You can create more density in existing hair and maybe work with that in combination with a HT or something. For those who are not that far on the NW scale may get some or most hair back. Still need to see what this thing can really do.

----------


## Mojo Risin

> A cure for baldness? If that's the case, You should probably check in this forum once every 3 yrs or so. That's not going to happen any time soon. Literally reversing baldness from nw7 to full head is a long shot at this point. Now if Histogen has the ability to halt progression and thicken existing hair, that alone would be something great. You can create more density in existing hair and maybe work with that in combination with a HT or something. For those who are not that far on the NW scale may get some or most hair back. Still need to see what this thing can really do.


 

I mean, if you look at their results ... if it's only this kind of result that you get, if you're bald, you'll still look pretty bald to me.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Attachment 9601
> 
> I mean, if you look at their results ... if it's only this kind of result that you get, if you're bald, you'll still look pretty bald to me.


 True but remember it was only one injection on a very small area. Maybe the size of a dime. What would happen if you inject the whole head? What about more potency? I mean they can try several things. We still need to see what this can really do.

----------


## KeepHoping

What I mean by pushing for an earlier release is once phase 1/2 trails are completing proving that the product is safe and effective then they should release the product in countries that have less restrictions and continue on with their trials to have it released in Asia and the US afterward.  Otherwise the consumers will have to wait through another long (1-2 years) phase 3 trail.  I think this should be considered by Histogen, would bring in a lot of revenue to conduct more trails on more products as well as helping a lot of people in need out.

----------


## gmonasco

> What I mean by pushing for an earlier release is once phase 1/2 trails are completing proving that the product is safe and effective


 Phase I/II trials don't "prove that the product is safe"; at best they document that no significant problems have yet been uncovered.  Plenty of treatments have cleared all trial testing and secured FDA approval, only to be recalled after later being connected to serious health issues.

----------


## UK_

> Attachment 9601
> 
> I mean, if you look at their results ... if it's only this kind of result that you get, if you're bald, you'll still look pretty bald to me.


 Dr Ziering has already stated that they are at around 21 - 27% yield per cm2, if they can get to 45 - 50% that will bring back your original density, there is no reason why we couldn't use HSC to gain the density that even the best HT lacks.

----------


## UK_

> What I mean by pushing for an earlier release is once phase 1/2 trails are completing proving that the product is safe and effective then they should release the product in countries that have less restrictions and continue on with their trials to have it released in Asia and the US afterward.  Otherwise the consumers will have to wait through another long (1-2 years) phase 3 trail.  I think this should be considered by Histogen, would bring in a lot of revenue to conduct more trails on more products as well as helping a lot of people in need out.


 There are often two Phase III trials and even a Phase IV - never mind releasing it at Phase II - anything can be discovered when you go from a test sample of 50 - 100 patients to 300 - 3,000 patients.  Each phase is always determining safety and efficacy, if you're in Phase III - You're not out of the woods yet.  I am surprised Histogen are moving so fast in-fact, their proposals for a 2014 release could never be possible within the US - FDA trials typically consume a decade of research and practice before reaching market, so be thankful they are pursuing research in Asia and dont take current progress for granted, slow progress is better than no progress.

----------


## ThinFast

I try not to check into this thread often because it's discouraging.  The reality for someone with aggressive hair loss is frustrating because I will lose everything before this product comes to the market.  Based off of what posters are saying, those who will benefit most are those who still have some hair left.  I currently do, but that will not be the case by 2014.  I've been battling this for 3.5 years and will be at a point where I can't hide it anymore before this year is over.

----------


## Jcm800

And how much is this likely to cost when/if it becomes available?

A damn fortune I expect, so that's me and many other sufferers out of the picture.

----------


## UK_

> And how much is this likely to cost when/if it becomes available?
> 
> A damn fortune I expect, so that's me and many other sufferers out of the picture.


 Dont know but it sure as hell wont be a month of minimum wage.

----------


## UK_

To be honest even it costs &#163;50k id do it - id splash all my savings for a better treatment for hair loss - hair is priceless - we all know that, just look at the sheer passion for hair we see on this website lol its great!  :Big Grin:

----------


## CVAZBAR

> I try not to check into this thread often because it's discouraging.  The reality for someone with aggressive hair loss is frustrating because I will lose everything before this product comes to the market.  Based off of what posters are saying, those who will benefit most are those who still have some hair left.  I currently do, but that will not be the case by 2014.  I've been battling this for 3.5 years and will be at a point where I can't hide it anymore before this year is over.


 If you still have hair, I doubt you will lose everything by 2014. You will
Be fine. We might lose some but not all.

----------


## RichardDawkins

So why are you guys so about it? Fact is, there was significant sustaining hair growth even after a critical two years mark.

Even if it would just give people back around 40% of their original density, those people could easily use something like Gho for a transplant or so and we all won

----------


## CVAZBAR

> So why are you guys so about it? Fact is, there was significant sustaining hair growth even after a critical two years mark.
> 
> Even if it would just give people back around 40% of their original density, those people could easily use something like Gho for a transplant or so and we all won


 So what Dr Gho has done is legit? Is it official? Spencer can't get a hold of him.

----------


## HairTalk

> So why are you guys so about it? Fact is, there was significant sustaining hair growth even after a critical two years mark.
> 
> Even if it would just give people back around 40&#37; of their original density, those people could easily use something like Gho for a transplant or so and we all won


 I'd like Dr. Gho to be interviewed by Spencer, and perhaps to post on this Web site his progress with his work.

Also, 40% is nothing to to happy with, if nor no other reason than things cost _money_. Let's say H.S.C. treatment costs $15,000 and supplemental transplantation costs another $15,000 (just vague figures) — I'd wager most of us would rather avoid eternal bankruptcy in the quest for hair, if we can.

----------


## RichardDawkins

i already send an email to Spencer and aksed him if he could interview Gho. Till today i didnt get a response but who knows

----------


## UK_

> I'd like Dr. Gho to be interviewed by Spencer, and perhaps to post on this Web site his progress with his work.
> 
> Also, 40% is nothing to to happy with, if nor no other reason than things cost _money_. Let's say H.S.C. treatment costs $15,000 and supplemental transplantation costs another $15,000 (just vague figures)  I'd wager most of us would rather avoid eternal bankruptcy in the quest for hair, if we can.


 I'd pay 30,000 USD for a full head of hair - if that's what it costs to have a full head of hair i'd be more than happy.

----------


## CVAZBAR

I'll pay that as well. If it's a full head of hair that will last till I die, of course I will.

----------


## CAlex

I have no idea how you all have swallowed the whole notion that you dont even start to notice hair loss until 50%!! That is such a crock. 

If you actually believe you can take like 50 thousand hairs off a human head and you would not be able to see a large difference you are crazy. I know its hard to wrap your heads around, mine included, but we need somewhere more around 75% of each individuals density.

If histogen could get us 50% I would still be very happy as it would help so many other guys on here and allow those who have not had hts(scar issue) to shave thir heads short and just keep that hairstyle pretty undetectable of hair loss issues.

lets hope HSC can get through trials successfully and get something to market in Asia in 2015/2016. that 2013 was never a realistic timeline imo.

----------


## UK_

> I have no idea how you all have swallowed the whole notion that you dont even start to notice hair loss until 50&#37;!! That is such a crock. 
> 
> If you actually believe you can take like 50 thousand hairs off a human head and you would not be able to see a large difference you are crazy. I know its hard to wrap your heads around, mine included, but we need somewhere more around 75% of each individuals density.
> 
> If histogen could get us 50% I would still be very happy as it would help so many other guys on here and allow those who have not had hts(scar issue) to shave thir heads short and just keep that hairstyle pretty undetectable of hair loss issues.
> 
> lets hope HSC can get through trials successfully and get something to market in Asia in 2015/2016. that 2013 was never a realistic timeline imo.


 I rekon even with 85 hairs per cm2 you'd pull off a nice full head of hair if you conflate it with a hair transplant... but more information is needed on how the mechanism is working, scalp biopsies have shown it is safe, i'd love to know exactly what is going on down there, what are those wnt proteins are doing when they get inside the scalp.

Forget just paying for the treatment, if they bring something successful to the market by 2013 that can provide an effective treatment that beats the current FDA approved meds on the market id donate all my savings to the company _and then_ pay for the treatment with a loan.

----------


## Gubter_87

People keep saying that this treatment is proven to be safe already and that could not be more untrue. Dr. Craig Ziering has mentioned that so far they have not seen any complications, which is a good sign. But far from any final proof of this treatment as safe.

The main objective of phase 1 studies is to check for safety issues, whilst the objective of phase 2 studies is to check for effectivness.

Histogen are yet to even START phase one studies. So we all just need to realize that so far this is promising, but histogen still have a long way to go before they are even close to being able to release anything to the market.

WNT-proteins and the WNT-signalling pathway are very often overexpressed in various types of cancers, because it is essentially necessary for unregulated cellproliferation.
I am not saying this to be discouraging, but I believe it is important that we can keep these types of discussions on a reasonable level and saying that injecting WNT-proteins into the scalp is clinically proven to be a safe treatment for hair loss is far from reasonable. There is not point in getting our hopes up too high too soon.

----------


## UK_

SORRY guys in advance, but I found this article "update" about HM quite interesting, I know it's nothing to do with Histogen so I am very sorry in advance.

Looks like bad news - they're not agreeing to the "in the next 5 years" lol... 

They claim that they can achieve 1 or 2 hairs from one, but want to get up to the level of 1000 hairs from one!  :d  Christ!  Forget that lets just go with the 1 or 2 hairs from one that'll do me!!

Bullshit really - he plays down whether it will be released in 5 years or not... there you have it... wer still decades off.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci...430-1e235.html

Cheers!

----------


## Nilli57211

Are you sure that's a current article?  I'm pretty sure I read that exact article last summer, and it was dated 2006.  Maybe someone just reposted it with a current date.  As far as hair loss research goes, it seems pretty out-of-date.  Everyone in the field knows that they are actually WELL INTO human clinical trials at this point, not looking at potential trials two years from now.  I mean, it actually mentions Intercytex as being an active player in this game, when we all know they're done, right?

----------


## Nilli57211

Dr. Ziering, your answers are much appreciated.  I have another question: are there any plans CURRENTLY in the works for female trials?  Do you have any kind of timeframe or estimated start date?

Women with hair loss suffer a great deal as well, particularly the women who have to experience it at young ages.  Trichoscience is including both men and women in their study, why can't Histogen do the same?

----------


## UK_

> Are you sure that's a current article?  I'm pretty sure I read that exact article last summer, and it was dated 2006.  Maybe someone just reposted it with a current date.  As far as hair loss research goes, it seems pretty out-of-date.  Everyone in the field knows that they are actually WELL INTO human clinical trials at this point, not looking at potential trials two years from now.  I mean, it actually mentions Intercytex as being an active player in this game, when we all know they're done, right?


 I doubt that very much, Intercytex were back up early last year, these guys are not even 5 years away they are saying.... i cant believe this, its like a dagger in ur soul i wish they would for Gods sake shut up with all this "here in 5 years" and then come out 3 years later and laugh about asking if its still 2 - 5 years away.

----------


## RichardDawkins

> SORRY guys in advance, but I found this article "update" about HM quite interesting, I know it's nothing to do with Histogen so I am very sorry in advance.
> 
> Looks like bad news - they're not agreeing to the "in the next 5 years" lol... 
> 
> They claim that they can achieve 1 or 2 hairs from one, but want to get up to the level of 1000 hairs from one!  :d  Christ!  Forget that lets just go with the 1 or 2 hairs from one that'll do me!!
> 
> Bullshit really - he plays down whether it will be released in 5 years or not... there you have it... wer still decades off.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci...430-1e235.html
> ...


 Ah he mentions the german guys, they have said that trials are on their way. And of course they wanna create 1000 and more from one because this means more money and less working (Money vultures) For 10000 grafts you have to ectract 5000 but with creating 1000 from one its just like extracting 10. The cloning or multiplication process itself is an automatic one.

I am looking into my glass bowl and i see : They will use different things like ECM and growth factors to achieve this.

But did i read it right they implanted those artificial follicles into the sole of mice? This is ****ing crude, its like transplanting hairs on our tings or so. Ok its good to hear that this works but man i dont know, instead they should use guinea pigs from those forums here :-) and maybe fill in their strip scars at first to test it

----------


## UK_

> Ah he mentions the german guys, they have said that trials are on their way. And of course they wanna create 1000 and more from one because this means more money and less working (Money vultures) For 10000 grafts you have to ectract 5000 but with creating 1000 from one its just like extracting 10. The cloning or multiplication process itself is an automatic one.
> 
> I am looking into my glass bowl and i see : They will use different things like ECM and growth factors to achieve this.
> 
> But did i read it right they implanted those artificial follicles into the sole of mice? This is ****ing crude, its like transplanting hairs on our tings or so. Ok its good to hear that this works but man i dont know, instead they should use guinea pigs from those forums here :-) and maybe fill in their strip scars at first to test it


 It does work, look at Aderans' results, they have seen an increase of 60 -70% hairs by extracting and injecting stem cells into bald scalps, stem cells that for one work and are resistant to androgens, its just the 5 year bullshit that pisses me off, i mean whats the big hold up?  TEN YEARS!!!!  Aderans are already in phase II human trials I dont see why these guys are still at "mouse stage" in all fairness, they should have done this a decade ago!

----------


## RichardDawkins

I dont wanna flame and crush you, but its really all about money, literally to get more money with less working done  :Frown:  i am dead serious. That those things works should be clear but hey if they think they can lower the working time or make it easier to get more money, they will abso ****ing lutely do it and thats were you have your average "5 years bla bla stuff"

Hey i absolutely agree with you on the "They should have done this a decade ago" but the same thing goes for all surgeons, they should have pursued the Gho way earlier.

Nice we finally agree on something :-)

----------


## UK_

> I dont wanna flame and crush you, but its really all about money, literally to get more money with less working done  i am dead serious. That those things works should be clear but hey if they think they can lower the working time or make it easier to get more money, they will abso ****ing lutely do it and thats were you have your average "5 years bla bla stuff"
> 
> Hey i absolutely agree with you on the "They should have done this a decade ago" but the same thing goes for all surgeons, they should have pursued the Gho way earlier.
> 
> Nice we finally agree on something :-)


 you seen this?

http://www.bioregenerativesciences.c...for-women.html

Hair STEMulating Complex - utter Histogen knock off - i'd love to hear Dr Zierings thoughts on this product lol.

A number of questions instantly arise... was this put through clinical trial?  What are the active ingredients (I will literally shoot myself if it contains Saw Palmetto) How effective is it?  Where is the proof??

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yop i saw this especialle the     STEM instead of STIMulating thing

All i know is, it wont be 10 years before we got a solution but science and researchers should not be so OVERLY Careful. THey should grab some forum users here and go for it :-)

I would volunteer and take one for the team ^^

----------


## UK_

> Yop i saw this especialle the     STEM instead of STIMulating thing
> 
> All i know is, it wont be 10 years before we got a solution but science and researchers should not be so OVERLY Careful. THey should grab some forum users here and go for it :-)
> 
> I would volunteer and take one for the team ^^


 What do u think?  Are you gonna order some?

It looks so convincing, I cant believe (if they are scammers) how they pull off being so legit... they play with your wishes... I wish this was it... but I know deep down it cant be.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Naaa i wont order this because imho i wait for one of the big players or go to Gho thats it. But if this stuff is valid well i may reevaluate my thinking.

But right now i would more consider something like Gho because those are consitent and solid results but what do i know

----------


## UK_

http://www.stophairlossnow.co.uk/New...es-101380.html

Well here they state they went though the same type of clinical trials as Histogen, ive also just sent them an email asking several questions about this trial, first of all, can I see the results from it?  lol... I hope this is the one... I hope and pray this is at least SOMETHING.

Whether this is a scam or not, I believe this will be the model of what will form as THE HOLY GRAIL - a topical application that works at just triggering those dormant stem cells into growth... I DO see hope on the HM side, but this type of technology fits so well with the research that found the remaining inactive stem cells in bald scalps.

Histogen shall wear the crown (no pun intended) if they can prove their product safe and effective at 50&#37;+ yield.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well to be honest, i think the standard of regrowth will be 70 to 80% tops. Yes stem cells will be THE solution in terms of transplantation or HM.

Looks very bad on the FUT side though, you agree. I mean i was really shocked to hear that in germany some scientist created artificial follicles, cause i never would have imgained that this is actually be doing right now

----------


## UK_

> Well to be honest, i think the standard of regrowth will be 70 to 80&#37; tops. Yes stem cells will be THE solution in terms of transplantation or HM.
> 
> Looks very bad on the FUT side though, you agree. I mean i was really shocked to hear that in germany some scientist created artificial follicles, cause i never would have imgained that this is actually be doing right now


 And if you think about it... they started off in 1997 - a decade before Histogen, I mean read this from their "company" section, you cannot help but make the comparisons to the approach Histogen use:

_"The efficacy of BioRegenerative Sciences' stem cell products and therapeutics largely result from the release of a full complement of molecules from the stem cells, including growth factors, cytokines, interleukins, and other protein molecules. BioRegenerative Sciences utilizes our proprietary SRM technology (stem cell released molecules technology) to deliver all of the active molecules released by stem cells."_

I mean this is just like what Histogen are doing with their dermal fibroblasts, they're (from hypoxic conditions) extracting certain proteins and growth factors that facilitate hair growth - their key ingredient is WNT7A... I wonder what BioRegenerative Sciences' key ingredient is.

----------


## Sogeking

In the future this stem cell treatments will be combined with HT used with HM for best density and results, but for now we all have to wait years for this to become a reality. 
Its really frustrating, but still if or when it comes out and the results are good, a lot of sufferers will go on immediate high.  :Smile: . I remain a skeptic until then.
Still seems to me that their info is very similar to that of Histogen.

----------


## Jcm800

I'd certainly have a punt on this as and when the men's version becomes available, sound's interesting.

----------


## UK_

> I'd certainly have a punt on this as and when the men's version becomes available, sound's interesting.


 I hope they distribute in the UK - I hate paying our import taxes.

----------


## Jcm800

Agreed! But if it does the job..

----------


## UK_

> Agreed! But if it does the job..


 if it does the job ill swim across the pond to get me some.

----------


## Latitude

> I doubt that very much, Intercytex were back up early last year, these guys are not even 5 years away they are saying.... i cant believe this, its like a dagger in ur soul i wish they would for Gods sake shut up with all this "here in 5 years" and then come out 3 years later and laugh about asking if its still 2 - 5 years away.


 This has to be an old article, or one that was complied with very little research, yes Intercytex has re-launched, however they are no longer looking at HM/cloning, they sold all of their research/patents to Aderans when they went into administration.

----------


## scoobysnacks

I don't think its an old article rehashed, but we must always take article like this in newspapers with a grain of salt as they can be grossly underinformed and only represent one side of the story. The fact that they even neglected to mention Histogen in place Intercytex should be the first sign that the journalist only did very basic research, considering Intercytex's current involvement in the HM field.

And while i'm hopeful that these treatments will pull through in the short term (as a diffuse thinner I feel they would have fantastic results for me), we have to be realistic in saying that all the companies in the game have an equal chance of succeeding, as well as an equal chance of failing and pinning our every hope to either outcome, for whatever reason, can only create more stress in our already unfortunately stressed lives. I mean Histogen have only ever presented a few graphs and photos showing promising but also dubious results, and the other companies have also been shrouded in secrecy. I'm not a sceptic, I want these treatments to work, and I want them to be on the market as soon as possible, but we really need to be a bit realistic about the prospects right now.

Just sayin'

----------


## scoobysnacks

Also, my views on Histogen could be significantly altered in less than a months time when they present at the World Congress of Dermatology in Korea. That will be the next big indicator of where they are at with their programs. If the results are good it could also spur Follica on to release some more information on the current state of their very guarded trials. We'll just have to wait and see

----------


## Jcm800

> if it does the job ill swim across the pond to get me some.


 I'm buying some trunks. Anyway let us know if they get back to you, fingers crossed it's not a scam, have a feeling it may be a worthy gamble tho  :Smile:

----------


## CAlex

A friend of mine who works for apple sent me this video. I found it very interesting and frightening. It is not directly related to hair loss in any way. It is a short documentary about 'planned obsolescence', the planned failure/breakdown of products by companies.

It is a very good watch and it is only about 50 minutes. 


I don't think its a question of will this happen regarding any future treatment for hairloss but just what route is taken to ensure lifelong customers.

I would rather they at least go for the maximum density they can get and just make it so the hair only lasts several years so one is needed to go back every few years for follow up treatments.

I really hope they do not aim for only mediocre density and keep us hooked that way in terms of using multiple follow ups to increase density. I know some of you will say this is all hot air but it is a very well documented business practice.

I guess they "could" try and produce the best product they can and as long as its still only a treatment and does not "cure" hair loss they would still have generations of customers until/if ever a genetic cure is made available.

----------


## RichardDawkins

They should go for maximum density and just lie to us and tell us to come back every 6 years of so (even if the hairs would last a whole life)

I would do it, its a small price to pay :-)

You hear that Histogen and others, as long as you can give maximum density we would come back even if its not needed :-)

----------


## UK_

> I'm buying some trunks. Anyway let us know if they get back to you, fingers crossed it's not a scam, have a feeling it may be a worthy gamble tho


 When I first ran into this I thought "scam" - but the more I look into it, the more I think... either they're very good at pulling off "the sophisticated image" or this is a genuine product that has just sprung up, and it will work.

We have to realise these guys were working on the extraction of growth factors from stem cells a decade before Histogen, this adds weight to the latter theory, but you cant just use "any" growth factors, as has been shown by Histogen they have to be very specific and tested for safety - where are these tests?  I will surely share with you all the email reply I get from the company (if they send me one).

----------


## CAlex

lol richard

I hope some people actually watch that video i posted on page 52 of this thread. I shows many examples of how and why almost every company dials down quality and lasting of their products lifespans.

lightbulbs in 1900's lasted 2500 hours. today around 1000 hours.
printers have chips in them that cause them to "false malfunction after set number of pages printed.

The list goes on and on. I pray that due to the fact that hsc would be only a treatment and it would have a inexhaustible customer supply(future people heading into hairloss) they produce the best product they can. Hopefully statistics tell them unless they can produce a high density that a high density of men who currently dont use any current treatments will not fork over $5,000(plus) or whatever for a mediocre treatment that does not give you normal looking density.

if they give us a high quality treatment they will get the entire hair loss sufferers - roughly 80 million people in the united states alone. I doubt they would get that entire population if they cant get us minimum 50% density.

----------


## UK_

> lol richard
> 
> I hope some people actually watch that video i posted on page 52 of this thread. I shows many examples of how and why almost every company dials down quality and lasting of their products lifespans.
> 
> lightbulbs in 1900's lasted 2500 hours. today around 1000 hours.
> printers have chips in them that cause them to "false malfunction after set number of pages printed.


 The printer thing doesn't really matter - how many people here are still using the same printer from 2003 or even 2007?  Nobody wants old technology, I always update my laptop every 3 - 4 years, even if its working fine I prefer to update it, same with most other things in my house.

----------


## nature

What do you think that could be realistic timeline for Asian approval ?
If they do phase 3 at 12 weeks endpoint of phase 1/2 then 2014. or 2015. timeline should be realistic.Even if they wait for 2 years data from phase 1/2 and then start phase 3 and also wait for 2 years data,HSC could hit market at 2016. or 2017.But i hope that they are going to do this phase 1/2 and then at least at one year endpoint start phase 3.
Sorry for bad english  :Big Grin:

----------


## scoobysnacks

> What do you think that could be realistic timeline for Asian approval ?
> If they do phase 3 at 12 weeks endpoint of phase 1/2 then 2014. or 2015. timeline should be realistic.Even if they wait for 2 years data from phase 1/2 and then start phase 3 and also wait for 2 years data,HSC could hit market at 2016. or 2017.But i hope that they are going to do this phase 1/2 and then at least at one year endpoint start phase 3.
> Sorry for bad english


 Considering the lag between Phase I and Phase II we have just witnessed, I reckon what you are suggesting would be very wishful thinking. And the investors won't be stupid enough to allow the scientists to just throw money into phase after phase of research without waiting to see results, because the driving force behind this project isn't, unfortunately, to make our hairless lives better, but to swell the profit margin for Histogen and it's investors. Money rules this world. But this also provides hope, because if they do happen to develop a solid and effective solution for regrowing hair, then they would want to get it to market ASAP to get a "head start" on their competitors.

----------


## UK_

Sorry again guys this isnt Histogen but Latisse seems to have worked for this guy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/fa...er=rss&emc=rss

Bernstein thinks HM is a decade off lol.

----------


## scoobysnacks

> Sorry again guys this isnt Histogen but Latisse seems to have worked for this guy.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/fa...er=rss&emc=rss
> 
> Bernstein thinks HM is a decade off lol.


 Probably just advertising concealed as news, as with the article posted 2 days ago on here.

----------


## Thinning@30

Speaking of Latisse, weren't they supposed to have completed a clinical trial of the effectiveness of their eyelash treatment on regrowing scalp hair?  I thought the results of that clinical trial were supposed to be available by February of this year.

As for Histogen, I'm disappointed that the start of their trial was pushed back.  Histogen does seem to be the most promising of all the pipeline treatments.  At this rate though, the 2014 timeline seems extremely optimistic, but I really hope they come through.

----------


## GBB

Good news:
http://histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#34

----------


## sebasmarin

> Good news:
> http://histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#34


 What exactly happened there?

----------


## Westonci

hopefully this will speed up the clinical trials. They were supposed to start in fall of 2010, and now its already summer and it just beginning.

----------


## CAlex

Good news about the lawsuit but it sounded like they still might be tied up with skinmedica for a while in legal issues.

So since the phase1/2 trials are still in the candidate selection(i think) is it likely to assume we wont get another big data release showing if there are major improvements in terms of the amount of hairs being created compared to the preclinical data they released a while back for at least 12 months?

I think the next twelve months are make it or break it for histogen at least in terms of being able to hit a 2014/2015 release deadline. I would be over the moon excited if they are able to just reproduce their initial results over a larger area cm2.

----------


## HairTalk

> Sorry for my absence but this is the latest "official word" on Histogen.
> We're starting to recruit first week in June in Singapore, total of 50 pts. [...]
> Best always 
> Doc Z


 Wait: so, what's the news on Histogen's phase I/II trials of H.S.C.? It's June 3rd, 2011, to-day. Have they begun?

----------


## Follicle Death Row

They're supposed to start this month. An update to confirm this would be nice.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Sorry I couldn't find this presentation without the French translator but here's what Histogen's competition, Ken Washenik and Aderans are up to. 53.8&#37; increase in terminal hair count after one year via their stem cell transplantation approach. Hopefully they ramp that up pretty soon because we've yet to see anything cosmetically significant. Presumably they could go back in and do another round of injections. Repeat ad nauseum for some real density. I suppose the advantage over histogen is these bad boys are new dht resistant hairs. This is the future of hair transplantation but it could be way off still. Is the finish line any closer? Who knows. Have a look. Btw, for what it's worth (not much I'd imagine), apparently Gho is trying to crack this too. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j79WqncOAT4

----------


## HairTalk

> Sorry I couldn't find this presentation without the French translator but here's what Histogen's competition, Ken Washenik and Aderans are up to. 53.8% increase in terminal hair count after one year via their stem cell transplantation approach. Hopefully they ramp that up pretty soon because we've yet to see anything cosmetically significant. Presumably they could go back in and do another round of injections. Repeat ad nauseum for some real density. I suppose the advantage over histogen is these bad boys are new dht resistant hairs. This is the future of hair transplantation but it could be way off still. Is the finish line any closer? Who knows. Have a look. Btw, for what it's worth (not much I'd imagine), apparently Gho is trying to crack this too. 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j79WqncOAT4


 Is this technique (Aderans's) distinct from that being pursued by RepliCel?

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> What exactly happened there?


 He saved a load of money on his car insurance by switching to Geico.

----------


## ResearchNeverfails

THis is not a joke I am trying to figure out how to post a wide readable thread on this website. What I will be posting is free knowledge about exacally how to reverse and regrow hair I kid you not and it will not cost you a cent. Sound unbelievable. Wait till you read my one page explenation I have been studying for the last month and put a page together to summerize the science behind it. So if someone could point me in the right direction let me know thanks

----------


## Flowers

> THis is not a joke I am trying to figure out how to post a wide readable thread on this website. What I will be posting is free knowledge about exacally how to reverse and regrow hair I kid you not and it will not cost you a cent. Sound unbelievable. Wait till you read my one page explenation I have been studying for the last month and put a page together to summerize the science behind it. So if someone could point me in the right direction let me know thanks


 
Make a new thread.
This oughta be good...

----------


## Jcm800

> Make a new thread.
> This oughta be good...


 UK where are you? Come help this guy out  :Wink:

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Make a new thread.
> This oughta be good...


 I think that is what he's asking how to do.

----------


## Jcm800

> I think that is what he's asking how to do.


 You'd imagine if he's found the Holy Grail cure for mpb-that he'd know how to start a thread, no?

----------


## Flowers

> THis is not a joke I am trying to figure out how to post a wide readable thread on this website. What I will be posting is free knowledge about exacally how to reverse and regrow hair I kid you not and it will not cost you a cent. Sound unbelievable. Wait till you read my one page explenation I have been studying for the last month and put a page together to summerize the science behind it. So if someone could point me in the right direction let me know thanks


 Hey dude I'll start the thread for you. I'll title it "Possible cure for baldness" (and then I'll state that it's your idea and that I'm doing this for you). All you have to do is post your idea on there like you posted on this thread.

----------


## HairTalk

> THis is not a joke I am trying to figure out how to post a wide readable thread on this website. What I will be posting is free knowledge about exacally how to reverse and regrow hair I kid you not and it will not cost you a cent. Sound unbelievable. Wait till you read my one page explenation I have been studying for the last month and put a page together to summerize the science behind it. So if someone could point me in the right direction let me know thanks


 The right direction would be downward: spiralling into the pits of hell to be Lucifer's eternal anus-candy. Make a left at Shit Bubble Blvd.

----------


## HairTalk

> Make a new thread.
> This oughta be good...


 


> Hey dude I'll start the thread for you. I'll title it "Possible cure for baldness" (and then I'll state that it's your idea and that I'm doing this for you). All you have to do is post your idea on there like you posted on this thread.


 Let's not feed trolls  it just makes them hungry and horny.

----------


## UK_

> THis is not a joke I am trying to figure out how to post a wide readable thread on this website. What I will be posting is free knowledge about exacally how to reverse and regrow hair I kid you not and it will not cost you a cent. Sound unbelievable. Wait till you read my one page explenation I have been studying for the last month and put a page together to summerize the science behind it. So if someone could point me in the right direction let me know thanks


 Go ahead, im in the mood for a good laugh.

----------


## UK_

> UK where are you? Come help this guy out


 ill have to give this one a shot aswel  :Big Grin: 

Oh by the way, I emailed "Cheryl" from "Bioregenerative Sciences" about whether they can offer a refund after 8 weeks if it fails to work, she said they can offer _"30 days refund on their Hair STEMULIZING complex"_ - yeah - I shit you not - she got the damn name of the product wrong in the email lol.

----------


## Thinning@30

> Oh by the way, I emailed "Cheryl" from "Bioregenerative Sciences" about whether they can offer a refund after 8 weeks if it fails to work, she said they can offer "30 days refund on their Hair STEMULIZING complex" - yeah - I shit you not - she got the damn name of the product wrong in the email lol.


 The name is a blatant ripoff of Histogen.  They know there is some positive buzz around HSC right now, and they decided to give their product a similar name, hoping people will confuse it with Histogen's HSC.  In retrospect it is so obvious.  I hope the Histogen people take them to the cleaners.

----------


## RichardDawkins

A "cure" is well pretty simple. There are two ways or lets say two and a half ways.

1) Surgical : Hair multiplication in vivo (etract some stem cell tissue and let it regenerate in the donor area)

2) Injection : Get the stem cells to work together again

3) Plucked hairs : are a mox between the two of them

4) grow complete follicles in a petri dish and transplant them

The magic pill will never come, you should say goodbye to this. There wont be a pill which reverses your hair loss completely

----------


## CVAZBAR

Speaking of possible cures, what's the deal with that dude that Spencer was going to interview? I can't remember who this guy is but he's been saying that he was going to interview this guy and I think it was something about cloning. I may be wrong but does anyone know or remember this?

----------


## ResearchNeverfails

Read my post science already backs it they just didn't know the trigger i found the trigger.

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## CVAZBAR

> Read my post science already backs it they just didn't know the trigger i found the trigger.


 What the hell are you talking about?

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## Follicle Death Row

Don't know how I didn't see this before but here's another talk from Ken Washenik albeit from this time last year. The promising thing is the FDA phase 3 stage seems like it will only be 18-24months!!! On the market at the beginning of 2014 supposedly. It's nice that Histogen and Aderans are in a race. :Smile: 

http://www.aderansresearch.com/presentation/

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Don't know how I didn't see this before but here's another talk from Ken Washenik albeit from this time last year. The promising thing is the FDA phase 3 stage seems like it will only be 18-24months!!! On the market at the beginning of 2014 supposedly. It's nice that Histogen and Aderans are in a race.
> 
> http://www.aderansresearch.com/presentation/


 That's great news. 2 and half years away! Is Aderans growing new hairs or just reawakening dormant follicles? This is non surgical right or is there scarring also?

----------


## UK_

http://www.hairway.org/show.aspx?id=670&cid=79

Website has a nice biopsy pic.

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## Follicle Death Row

> That's great news. 2 and half years away! Is Aderans growing new hairs or just reawakening dormant follicles? This is non surgical right or is there scarring also?


 Non surgical as far as I know. Tiny needle to extract the required dermal and epidermal cells. Well that's what I got from it anyway though I might be wrong. They did their proof of concept thing ages ago and the timeline seems to be sound and they're not just winging it like I fear Histogen are. I think it looks like they're reawakening dormant follicles but I again that's just what I thought from the presentation. Still don't know what the cosmetic end result is going to be like. No one yet knows what this technology can and can't do. I think it might run a bit behind.. Yeah, 2 and a half years, forgot about the last year to be cleared by the FDA after phase 3, but yeah beginning of 2014. I had been thinking end of the decade myself (That's what Dr. Bernstein had been touting) but I didn't actually know that they were deep in phase 2. I had assumed they'd be another 3 years at phase 2, followed by a 5 year phase 3, if they got that far. I wonder are they feeling as boisterous a year on from that presentation. Hopefully Spencer does another interview with Ken Washenik in the near future for a progress report.

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## Follicle Death Row

> http://www.hairway.org/show.aspx?id=670&cid=79
> 
> Website has a nice biopsy pic.


 Nice find. I think my expectations for Histogen are that it's still a long way off but that it's going to be key for those that are just beginning to miniturise and lose some hair. This stuff could potentially hold it off forever but I think I might be pretty damn bald when it does come to market.

I'd like to think that in the future Histogen will be the medical treatment so to speak and Aderans will be the transplantation but the lines are blurred. Maybe they can be used synergistically. Kids today won't have to worry about going bald that's for sure.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Nice find. I think my expectations for Histogen are that it's still a long way off but that it's going to be key for those that are just beginning to miniturise and lose some hair. This stuff could potentially hold it off forever but I think I might be pretty damn bald when it does come to market.

I'd like to think that in the future Histogen will be the medical treatment so to speak and Aderans will be the transplantation but the lines are blurred. Maybe they can be used synergistically. Kids today won't have to worry about going bald that's 

The way Spencer speaks, it seems that he actually has more faith in Histogen than anything else. To bad none of this is near.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Nice find. I think my expectations for Histogen are that it's still a long way off but that it's going to be key for those that are just beginning to miniturise and lose some hair. This stuff could potentially hold it off forever but I think I might be pretty damn bald when it does come to market.
> 
> I'd like to think that in the future Histogen will be the medical treatment so to speak and Aderans will be the transplantation but the lines are blurred. Maybe they can be used synergistically. Kids today won't have to worry about going bald that's for sure.


 [QUOTE=Follicle Death Row;30734]

The way Spencer speaks, it seems that he actually has more faith in Histogen than anything else. To bad none of this is near.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I was thinking about the 57 hairs in 1cm2 Dr. Ziering mentioned. At 2.2 hairs per follicular unit that's almost 26FU/cm2. Now I'm sure that wasn't on a completely bald scalp but anyway let's suppose initially Aderans can do something similiar. 

If one of those treatments could give you 25FU/cm2 over an area of 240cm2 (norwood 6) you could then add 6,000 by FUE (that would thin the donor by about 30&#37 :Wink: . Those 6,000 all over 240cm2 would give an additional 25FU/cm2 resulting in a combined total of 50/cm2. Let's suppose you weight those 6,000 grafts and in the crown which is 100cm2, you go for 40FU/cm2. Now if you chop the mid scalp and front into 80cm2 and 60cm2 sections respectively (100+80+60) you could have 50FU/cm2 in the mid scalp and almost 67FU/cm2 in the frontal section. I think that in the early days of Histogen and Aderans this might be the best form of attack for those that are heading towards norwood 6 territory. You could do 3 2000 FUE sessions in a calender year. That would be beat the snot out of any 9,000FU for 3 strips and a stupid smiley on the back of your head which is currently the standard today.

Of course as hair cloning/multiplication advances and becomes cheaper you can go for top ups to add more density. Perhaps the Acell autcloning/plucking thing might be up and running. Looks like we'll have some decent options in 5 or 6 years. A synergistic use of treatments will probably give the best results until they have this thing cracked once and for all.

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## CVAZBAR

I'm really hoping for Histogen to stop progression. That will set up everything else. Sooner or later you will get your hair back.

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## HairTalk

> Kids today won't have to worry about going bald that's for sure.


 That might be a bit too optimistic, at this point.

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## UK_

Yeah we should get our expectations in check, I can't see this growing hair on completely bald scalps tbh might work well if transplanted hairs are dipped in HSC, then planted to increase density, survival and possibly grow new surrounding hairs from the stimulation of the transplanted stem cells.

----------


## Flowers

> That might be a bit too optimistic, at this point.


 You don't think in the next 10-20 years anything will come about to prevent today's kids from balding? Maybe not a preventative cure but you gotta believe at least acell and cloning will give full coverage with transplants for when you do go bald, right?

----------


## mlao

> You don't think in the next 10-20 years anything will come about to prevent today's kids from balding? Maybe not a preventative cure but you gotta believe at least acell and cloning will give full coverage with transplants for when you do go bald, right?


 Dr. Robert Bernstein has said that Cloning is within ten years. while I know we have heard it again and again from all the "stealth mode companies" I would tend to trust a source like Dr. Bernstein because he generally does not make foolish uninformed statements. Still it's a long time!

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair...ew-york-times/

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## UK_

I still find it hard to take Aderans seriously.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjEyNjI2NjUy.html

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## Follicle Death Row

> You don't think in the next 10-20 years anything will come about to prevent today's kids from balding? Maybe not a preventative cure but you gotta believe at least acell and cloning will give full coverage with transplants for when you do go bald, right?


 Yeah I'm thinking that a 10 year old now who is to start balding at 30 won't have any major concerns. In 20 years there'll surely be vastly improved treatments. I'm not talking about gene therapy but Histogen and Aderans and such options will be pretty common place and not such a big deal. Hell a combo of corteoxolone 17 alpha propionate and Histogen could change things big time in 5-7 years. Such treatments could buy someone 10 years perhaps. So really in the example of that 10 year old they could make it to 40 without even considering hair cloning or any form of HT.

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## Follicle Death Row

> I still find it hard to take Aderans seriously.
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjEyNjI2NjUy.html


 Lol :Big Grin: . Japanese humour. They're so nutty.

----------


## RichardDawkins

I think today is the only time where we could be optimistic because right now there is no way back.

Even traditional transplants today could achive a good deal for you. And Who knows, maybe in 2 years stuff such as Cole can produce consitent 80% regrowth :-)

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## Flowers

> I think today is the only time where we could be optimistic because right now there is no way back.
> 
> Even traditional transplants today could achive a good deal for you. And Who knows, maybe in 2 years stuff such as Cole can produce consitent 80% regrowth :-)


 I'm putting more eggs into the 'Dr. Cole using Acell' basket everyday.

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## Follicle Death Row

> I'm putting more eggs into the 'Dr. Cole using Acell' basket everyday.


 Hope you guys are right.

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## RichardDawkins

Plucked hairs and FUE multiplication will be future treatments i am sure. I mean even traditional transplants on high NW scales are getting better and better. Now put the factor of expanded donor at hand and you are good to go

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## HairTalk

> Dr. Robert Bernstein has said that Cloning is within ten years. while I know we have heard it again and again from all the "stealth mode companies" I would tend to trust a source like Dr. Bernstein because he generally does not make foolish uninformed statements. Still it's a long time!
> 
> http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair...ew-york-times/


 I think you're either misinterpresting or twisting Bernstein's words. To my understanding, he's simply said he doesn't feel hair-multiplication is close (i.e., it's more like "ten years," than ten months, away), not that he's sure it'll show up within the next decade.

----------


## HairTalk

> You don't think in the next 10-20 years anything will come about to prevent today's kids from balding? Maybe not a preventative cure but you gotta believe at least acell and cloning will give full coverage with transplants for when you do go bald, right?


 I really don't know; right now, though (i.e., speaking to tentwenty years from now, based on to-day), I certainly wouldn't call it a sure-thing that it will. Frankly, I'm trying hard to withhold any such optimism until there's fairly widespread (which I'd characterize, here, as being ~70%) acceptance within the community of reputable hair-transplant surgeons that limitless donor-supply and/or "non-surgical" hair-restoration have/has _arrived_l; I'm reluctant to adopt such hope on people's proposing things that "look promising."

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## Follicle Death Row

This was a good interview from Dr. Bernstein last November.

http://www.iahrs.org/news/dr-robert-...ell-matristem/

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## Follicle Death Row

> I really don't know; right now, though (i.e., speaking to tentwenty years from now, based on to-day), I certainly wouldn't call it a sure-thing that it will. Frankly, I'm trying hard to withhold any such optimism until there's fairly widespread (which I'd characterize, here, as being ~70%) acceptance within the community of reputable hair-transplant surgeons that limitless donor-supply and/or "non-surgical" hair-restoration have/has _arrived_l; I'm reluctant to adopt such hope on people's proposing things that "look promising."


 Well it's going to happen eventually. You're right not to get too optimistic though. This is all just conjecture until it actually arrives. Phase 2 results from both Histogen and Aderans will tell us where we're really at. Until then it's just a guessing game I suppose. In 2 years those phase 2 results will be out and then we can truly evaluate where we're at with this whole thing.

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## UK_

Its always 5 or 10 years away.

How many times have we heard it?

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## Follicle Death Row

I know. It's annoying alright. At least we've got some legimate human trials going on. There's too much money in this for some not to crack it eventually. Whether we'll be able to avail of it is another matter.

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## Follicle Death Row

Ah feck it anyway. Ken Washenik is probably telling porkies. Here's the timeline copied from the link below.

http://tressless.com/learn/Hair_Multiplication

1941 Lillie and Wang demonstrate new feathers can be created by implanting dermal papillae in the skin. (Note: feather follicles and hair follicles are extremely similar.) 

1954 Breedis shows, under certain conditions, after complete destruction or removal of hair follicles in adult mammals, new follicles can grow in the skin. 

1956 Montagna & Chase purposely damage follicles by X-radiating the scalp. Remaining dermal papilla and ORS cells repair and regrow the hair follicles. 

1961 Cohen pioneers the use of large rat vibrissa follicles to isolate dermal and epidermal follicular components for transplantation experiments. He demonstrates implanted dermal papillae are capable of producing new follicles in the skin. 

1966 Oliver shows DP cells are responsible for regenerating new end bulbs in amputated follicles. 

1981 Oliver and Jahoda culture rat DP cells and show implanting them in wounded rat skin results in follicles that produce hair fiber resembling that of DP cell's host follicle. 

1984 Messenger shows cultured human DP cells behave in vitro very similarly to cultured rat vibrissa DP cells. 

1992 Jahoda and Reynolds demonstrate cultured dermal papilla cell induction of hair in glabrous skin (rat foot pad) 

1993 Jahoda reveals he has been successful growing new follicles in humans using cultured human DP cells. No research papers are forthcoming. 

1996 Cooley cultures his DP cells and implants them into is arm. One new hair grows as a result. The hair is later shed. 

1996 Yoshizato et al demonstrate long-term culture of hair inductive dermal papilla cells 

1997 Gho begins hair multiplication experiments. After discovering DP cells have extreme limitations, he begins using ORS and stem cells extracted from plucked hair to rejuvenate shrunken MPB human follicles. 

1999 Jahoda implants his intact dermal sheath in wife's arm and grows hair. However, he discovers his cultured DP cells fail to result in hair growth. 

1999 Intercytex is formed. Paul Kemp is Chief Scientific Officer. 

2001 Barrows of BioAmide presents paper documenting having grown hair in a human patient using cultured DP cells. 

2001 Gho states hes aiming to introduce HM within 5 years. 

2002 Aderans Research Institute is formed. Notable hair scientist Kurt Stenn is recruited as Chief Scientific Officer. BioAmide is purchased as basis of research and Barrows is taken aboard. Washenik says he thinks it will take 5 years to have a commercially available product. 

2002 Kemp announces in best case scenario product submission could be as early as 2005. 

2003 Washenik says it will take 5 more years to release a product. Onlookers wonder why cure is always 5 more years away. 

2003 Intercytex begins phase I trials in England. 

2005 Gho continues to struggle with growing hair consistently in his human test patients. He cannot figure out why some patients respond well to the treatment and others barely respond at all. Many baldness sufferers shift hopes to Intercytex. 

2005 Intercytex completes phase I studies well behind schedule. Results appear promising. 5 of 7 patients grow hair. Kemp grows 66 new hairs from 100 injections and refers to it as an average response to treatment. 

2006 Gho misses 5-year prediction. 

2006 Intercytex begins phase II studies in England. 

2007 Aderans begins phase I studies in England. Interestingly, they use a two-cell approach compared to Intercytex one-cell approach. 

2008 Intercytex announces it will cease financing the development of ICX-TRC after completion of phase II completes and attempt to find a partner to finish the research and distribute the product. Many see this as a sign of product ineffectiveness. On the bright side, all patients who received pre-stimulation of the epidermis had increased hair counts. HM works in everybody. The question is, how well it works? 

2009 Aderans launched Phase II trials (April 24, 2009). Phase II of the study is being conducted in six U.S. cities: Atlanta, Boston, New York, Raleigh, Houston, and Washington DC. Currently phase II trials are taking place and its expected to be completed by the end of 2009. Talking about the avaliability of the HM i have heard that within 5 years. If we look back here to 2003 then Washenik told that after 5 years (2008) but now is already september 2009 and they still need 5 more years. Timline is moving and we don't know exactly when they can bring this cure to market. Hopefully by the end of 2009 we have more information about their phase 2 studies. 

2009 TrichoScience started human hair cloning clinical trials (Phase I) in Europe September 2009. It's interesting that we can see from their website the cost of the cure for the patient which is approx $16,500 - $29,500 

2009 Intercytex closes its doors. 

2010 Researchers Develop First Successful Hair Cloning Technique (with MatriStem® MicroMatrix(regenerative medicine by Acell) by Gary Hitzig, M.D. and Jerry Cooley ) 

2010 Aderans Research Treats One-Hundredth Subject in Clinical Study. Aderans Research Institute Inc. (ARI) recently (February 28, 2010) achieved a significant milestone in its Phase 2 clinical study of cell-based hair regeneration, treating the trials 100th subject. With clinical sites expected to double in the coming months, the study will likely add dozens of additional subjects to its enrollment. 

2010 Aderans Research Institute Inc. (ARI) said today (May 4, 2010) it has expanded its clinical trials on hair regeneration by an additional seven cities in the United States. Las Vegas, NV; Los Angeles, CA; and New Hyde Park, NY, have been added through clinical site company Impact Clinical Trials. Tucson, AZ; St. Louis, MO; Birmingham, AL; and St. Petersburg, FL, have been added through clinical site company Radiant Research. Collectively, the Radiant and Impact sites will add around 80 new subjects to the study. Combined with at least twenty new additions at a site hosted by TKL Research, the second phase of ARIs clinical study will surpass 200 subjects in total, a remarkable number of participants for a Phase 2 trial. 


So back in 2002, Ken Washenik said 5 years. Then again in 2003. Then in 2009 they said 5 years. Here's how the next interview goes with Spencer:

Spencer: So what progress have you guys made? I hear you're coming to the end of phase 2? Any chance we'll see a product out in 2014 to meet the timeline?

Ken: Yeah about that...ah...We're still modifying the process for optimal results so we're going to run another 4 protocols so we're probably looking at midway through 2016 before we've got a workable treatment to bring to market.

Spencer: So the FDA process will be complete by 2016.

Ken: Well we'll have a product that could go to market but we'll have to go actually go through phase 3 to get FDA approval.

Spencer: How long will that take?

Ken: 2020...ish

Spencer 2020ish?

Ken: Then we have to train in the Bosley team so it's more likely that it will be 2022.

----------


## CAlex

11 more years wtf! Shoot me now. Basically aderans is for my grand-kids then.

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## Follicle Death Row

> 11 more years wtf! Shoot me now. Basically aderans is for my grand-kids then.


 Hell I don't know. One thing though, these things always take longer than anticipated. Just the way it is I guess. If it doesn't happen in time for me personally I'm ok with that as long as it does come along eventually to help all those that probably have no idea yet that hair loss is going to creep up on them. I sometimes get caught up in all this optimism but I suppose 2022 is more reasonable than 2014. If it came in 2017/2018 I think they'd be doing very well in all honesty. I know last year they said 2014 but Ken Washenik has done some presentations this year and he's just said "in the future" this will be a new non invasive form of HT. Who really knows, we're just pulling dates out of the air here.

Let's face it, Aderans can give many some more density but it's not going to reverse a norwood 6 or 7 back to a strong 2. Not in the early running anyway. I see it as an adjunct to traditional HTs. A density top up if you will. If it could give us an extra 25FU/cm2 we'd be laughing. Let the big 3 serve as a bridge to something better. Maybe PRP+Acell injections will be proven to work but I'm not so sure. Possibly retard loss I think. 

I'm still convinced that the synergistic effect of multiple treatments will be the way to go initially when this thing lands. Ideally if Acell provides the 54% donor regrowth from FUE that Dr. Cole is claiming, then FUE+Acell combined with Aderans can give you some pretty damn good density. As Aderans get's cheaper you could always top up the density over time. I hope FUE before Aderans doesn't affect growth in from the injected stem cells. If I had to guess I'd imagine that Aderans would work better on a virgin scalp. But then again that's just conjecture.

----------


## HairTalk

> Well it's going to happen eventually. You're right not to get too optimistic though. This is all just conjecture until it actually arrives. Phase 2 results from both Histogen and Aderans will tell us where we're really at. Until then it's just a guessing game I suppose. In 2 years those phase 2 results will be out and then we can truly evaluate where we're at with this whole thing.


 I agree. When Histogen, Aderans, and TrichoScience/RelpiCel release their results, and when Drs. Bernstein and Cooley share theirs (regarding ACell)  all of which, I believe, are to happen by the end of 2012  we should have a sense of where we are. In the meantime, I expect some more bull-shit will come around  pills, elixers, and the such  but, unless it's from a reputable source, I think I'll try to curb my enthusiasm.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> I agree. When Histogen, Aderans, and TrichoScience/RelpiCel release their results, and when Drs. Bernstein and Cooley share theirs (regarding ACell)  all of which, I believe, are to happen by the end of 2012  we should have a sense of where we are. In the meantime, I expect some more bull-shit will come around  pills, elixers, and the such  but, unless it's from a reputable source, I think I'll try to curb my enthusiasm.


 I'm with you on this. End of 2012, like December 21st or something lol :Big Grin: . But yeah end of 2012 we should know. Plenty of bullshit between now and then though.

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## PatientlyWaiting

These threads will make any balding man go crazy.

I can not post in here every day for my own sake, yet I torture myself and read all the comments and all the "10 years away", "2 years away", "5 billion light years away".

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## Flowers

I almost don't even care about all this Histogen/Aderans talk. It's obviously not happening any time soon. I'm more interested in Acell, which does seem to be happening soon.

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## PatientlyWaiting

> I almost don't even care about all this Histogen/Aderans talk. It's obviously not happening any time soon. I'm more interested in Acell, which does seem to be happening soon.


 Acell is surgical right?

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## CVAZBAR

I haven't even been in this forum a year but quickly noticed how people change opinions daily. It is frustrating and you don't even know what to think. What's funny is that no matter what people say, whether it's 5 or 20 years away, we all live in this ****ing forum.

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## debris

I think the most important question now is how effective these treatments will be.

To be honest, if they were real "cures" I would not mind to wait 5 or 10 years for them to come true.

The problem is that we do not know if they are gonna be better than minoxidil with propecia. So far it seems that for some they might not to be, if they do not compound.

Efficiancy is imho most important. Once they have something that works and is better than minox and propecia or HTs then time doesnt rly matter much. Once it works well, the investors will do anything and everything to make sure it will be on the market in less than 5 years imho.

But are histogen or aderans rly better than propecia? Aderans first protocol in phase 2 seems to be on par with propecia results for 40-50 or more percent of ppl atm but other half would be better on propecia. Histogen? Who knows how that compares.

And most importantly. Do multiple treatments compound? We dont know yet. They may or well may not.

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## BoSox

So we have to wait 5 yrs or so to see if this is going to be effective, even then most of us won't be able to afford it.

I'm just going to wear a hair piece, **** it.

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## debris

> So we have to wait 5 yrs or so to see if this is going to be effective, even then most of us won't be able to afford it.
> 
> I'm just going to wear a hair piece, **** it.


 I think u can expect to know whether the efficiency is more likely to be "yes its comparable to HT" or "well its just another minoxidil" in less than 2 years from now on.

for example even with the 50&#37; ppl having at least propecia effect from the aderans, that would be completely ok, if it would compound and last (cycle). be at least average responder, have it done 5 times in a year and youre way better than what you can have with treatments so far. no scars, no hassle, no impotency.

the major deal breakers are imho these points (all of them are unknown atm):

- does it compouond? (do i get better results each time i get treated?)
- does the hair last long enough? (it seems that for at least some histogen pts it lasts more than one year which is very encouraging sign)
- does it work on reasonably bald areas or does it work on recently balding areas only?

answer these 3 yes and you are cured without any doubt as long as you can afford it. and imho the day we knew that these 3 were not a problem, would be the day you would be also reasonably sure its less than 5 years away, realisticaly 3.

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## RichardDawkins

debris you can leave your MINOX and PROPECIA talk at hair site. Here is not the right place for this nor does anyone care.

Even if Ari or Histogen will get only 35 new grafts, its better thn the medical stuff because your medical options dont give hair regrowth.

You guys should really getting along with the truth that the solution will be a surgical one

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## CVAZBAR

What Debris says is really the key. If we knew that any of these treatments work, it would change everything. I would probably consider a HT knowing the treatments have my back in the future. I mean 10 years would not be so bad if we knew for sure this would end it all. The next years are going to be crucial.

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## Flowers

> You guys should really getting along with the truth that the solution will be a surgical one


 I'm definetely on board with that thought. Histogen and Aderans are just dicking around telling us it'll be in the near future when I bet not even they know when anything will be ready. However HT with Acell is already improving and looking more promising. And to any guys who say "oh but surgery is too expensive..." Do you really think HSC or aderans will be cheap?

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## UK_

Article states Gho's treatment has a waiting list until 2012.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/health...t-hair-loss.do

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## RichardDawkins

Gho is still talking arrogant bs

----------


## debris

> What Debris says is really the key. If we knew that any of these treatments work, it would change everything. I would probably consider a HT knowing the treatments have my back in the future. I mean 10 years would not be so bad if we knew for sure this would end it all. The next years are going to be crucial.


 exactly. and I think the chances are quite good. Theres at least 6 more protocols that aderans will finish by that time (they have finished first out of 7), histogen will release more data on HSC by that time as well and replicel may have some preliminary data as well.

next 2 years will be very exciting time. If it pans out well im gonna be much more agressive in the treatment of my mpb as well (HTs to restore frontal recession). It will be much easier decision if we know that theres something coming anyway.

----------


## RichardDawkins

This i can support, but it wont be a surgical session with Gho i can tell you that because the more and more i dig into this Gho stuff, i think its not what people are waiting for.

And also its very lets say crazy that Histogen, Ari and guys like COle and others can also come up with at least interesting and practical solutions while Gho after almost over a decade is not able to present ONE fully restoration while the others at least with small steps come towards a good goal.

I would even say, that it is more realistic that this Lauster guy from germany will present a full restoration before Gho even comes close to this

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## UK_

Has anyone got a link to the interview which Ken Washenik tells Spencer it will be another 11 years before we see this treatment?  This guy is taking the piss last december he said it would be available by 2014 and just 6 months later he adds on another 8 ****ing years?   I give up on these future hope treatments they just pull your excitement up and drag you down in an instant... **** this.

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## UK Boy

I have to say something cos people are getting confused due to Follical Death Row's HYPOTHETICAL conversation between Spencer and Ken. No one from Aderans has said that it's going to be another 11 years so lets all stop getting carried away by one person's pesimistic view of things. Yes Ken has previously given people false hope but doesn't  everyone say that 10 years is a realistic timeline for a treatment? Well 2014 will be about 10 years since Aderans started so at the moment I'm willing to believe that they will be ready around that time.

----------


## UK Boy

Actually looking at that timeline that Follical Death Row posted it looks like Aderans started in 2002 so 2014 will be over 10 years since they started out. If you look at the timeline you'll also notice that in 2002 and 2003 when Ken said that it'd be five years they hadn't even started clinical trials so it's now easy to look back and see the 5 years as totally unrealistic. However when Ken again stated 5 years in 2009 Aderans had completed phase I trials and were starting phase II, a big difference to the last time he predicted 5 years. Phase II trials seem to have been running successfully enough as far as anyone can tell although we haven't had any official news since Dec 2010 even though their website says they'll be updating throughout 2011. What we do know of phase II is that they've completed the first protocol and are now about 6 months into the 2nd and 3rd. I've seen a chart on one of the other forums that shows the timeline for the 7 protocols, the same chart shows the product going to market 2014 as planned.

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## UK Boy

> I think you're either misinterpresting or twisting Bernstein's words. To my understanding, he's simply said he doesn't feel hair-multiplication is close (i.e., it's more like "ten years," than ten months, away), not that he's sure it'll show up within the next decade.


 Sorry but I have to disagree with you Hair Talk. Unless you are refering to a source other than the article then I feel it is you who is misinterpreting or twisting Bernstein's words. In the article it states that Bernstein says "He believes hair cloning will be commercially available within 10 years". I fail to see how you see this as him saying he doesn't feel it's close. He's saying it will be on the market *within* 10 years, meaning less than 10 years. To me that makes me think that he's positive about it, like it's within our grasp. You make it sound like he's negative about it like it's a long, long time off. If Bernstein felt that way I'm sure he would've said something like "Hair multiplication is still a long way off, it certainly won't be here within the next 10 years. Anywayz that's my more positive way of looking at it, I'm sure that longer standing members of the forum will disagree with me though.

----------


## mlao

> Sorry but I have to disagree with you Hair Talk. Unless you are refering to a source other than the article then I feel it is you who is misinterpreting or twisting Bernstein's words. In the article it states that Bernstein says "He believes hair cloning will be commercially available within 10 years". I fail to see how you see this as him saying he doesn't feel it's close. He's saying it will be on the market *within* 10 years, meaning less than 10 years. To me that makes me think that he's positive about it, like it's within our grasp. You make it sound like he's negative about it like it's a long, long time off. If Bernstein felt that way I'm sure he would've said something like "Hair multiplication is still a long way off, it certainly won't be here within the next 10 years. Anywayz that's my more positive way of looking at it, I'm sure that longer standing members of the forum will disagree with me though.


 i agree with UK Boy i had a consultation with Dr. Bernstein and found him to be very honest and pragmatic. As a matter of fact I find his website and blog to be one of the most unbiased sites for people who are looking for honest non-aneccdotal advice about hair loss.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> Has anyone got a link to the interview which Ken Washenik tells Spencer it will be another 11 years before we see this treatment?  This guy is taking the piss last december he said it would be available by 2014 and just 6 months later he adds on another 8 ****ing years?   I give up on these future hope treatments they just pull your excitement up and drag you down in an instant... **** this.


 Haha. I'm only kidding. It was a hypothetical conversation and just a joke. We've just had setbacks in the past and I don't think anyone would be very surprised if we missed this 2014 timeline. I think they should have something out, maybe not radical hair cloning, but something better than minox or fin in 2014, 2015? 2016/17? Who knows at this point. Best to remain cautiously optimistic.

----------


## RichardDawkins

The good thing is that almost everyone is taking one step beyond, and thats good for all of us. Thank god someone went the FUE way because inmo FUE is the Starting point for hair multiplication (seen as a surgical solution)

----------


## UK_

Yeah I wonder how FUE grafts would respond to being dipped in HSC, probably get thicker recipient hairs, better survival and another one or two hairs around the implant site.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Haha. I'm only kidding. It was a hypothetical conversation and just a joke. We've just had setbacks in the past and I don't think anyone would be very surprised if we missed this 2014 timeline. I think they should have something out, maybe not radical hair cloning, but something better than minox or fin in 2014, 2015? 2016/17? Who knows at this point. Best to remain cautiously optimistic.


 I was confused for a bit because I was sure you were joking but when people started thinking it was an actual interview, I was about to go crazy hahaha.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Yes, the key is that we are moving forward with big research. I was reading about Follicas recent update in April, with their lithium treatments to stimulate hair growth and they're doing a shit load of testing. The only problem is that they don't say anything about a timeline or how close they are to cracking it. Maybe they are closer than we think. They keep very quiet but there was a real buzz earlier this year with them.

----------


## UK_

> I was confused for a bit because I was sure you were joking but when people started thinking it was an actual interview, I was about to go crazy hahaha.


 Lol yeh I had to explain to a few people at work today why i was so pissed off yesterday.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> Lol yeh I had to explain to a few people at work today why i was so pissed off yesterday.


 Oops my bad. Kind of funny that it deceived a few...albeit by accident. Perhaps it would have been worse if I made up an interview where Ken goes everything has gone so well that we're launching summer of 2012. Then they find out I was bullshitting. That would have been too evil.  :Big Grin:

----------


## UK_

I think it did me some good, gave me a taste of what it would be like if things went wrong, kind of tells me not to put too much hope in these future cures.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Thats the reason why we need surgical solutions as well, just in case something went wrong ;-) i doubt it butter better safe then sorry

----------


## UK_

Apparently Cotsarelis is holding a talk tomorrow on _"future treatments"_ (lol) of hair loss through wound healing.

http://sciencecenter.basecampbusiness.com/node/31651

Is anyone attending?  

Any possible way of getting a recording of the talk?

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Apparently Cotsarelis is holding a talk tomorrow on _"future treatments"_ (lol) of hair loss through wound healing.
> 
> http://sciencecenter.basecampbusiness.com/node/31651
> 
> Is anyone attending?  
> 
> Any possible way of getting a recording of the talk?


 They talked about this a bit in today's show. Can't really find anything on their website that talks about anything new but Joe from NY said in the show that they have something that probably won't need FDA approval. It was interesting news but they didnt elaborate much. I'm not sure where they got this news from.

----------


## debris

> They talked about this a bit in today's show. Can't really find anything on their website that talks about anything new but Joe from NY said in the show that they have something that probably won't need FDA approval. It was interesting news but they didnt elaborate much. I'm not sure where they got this news from.


 he made it up to sound interesting.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> he made it up to sound interesting.


 So what you're saying is that they are bullshitting?

----------


## debris

> So what you're saying is that they are bullshitting?


 Im very sceptical to anyone claiming anything about trials not needed. Especialy when follica have not yet shown a single hair grown on humans.

yet, there are some ppl (and there is a lot of evidence everywhere on hairloss forums and in hairloss comunity) that wont hesitate a moment to make up just about anything to please themselves and the ones willing to believe.

its imho very important to realize that this is a fact. you cannot trust what some guy says, because he is most probably just "projecting" his believes into statements. ppl read it and they again are biased. they are desperate and want to believe that something (god or science or whatever) will cure them, so they again PROJECT this into what they read, and they immediately take it granted. and it goes on and on and on. and then 5 years later, you find that most of these were just pure lies.

im suffering from hairloss last 10 years. look 5 years back to any forum where ppl were discussing possible treatments. there were "insiders" lieing about what they heard or know about the CURE thats comming, etc etc etc.

these ppl do it because they feel better. they feel better if they lie to themselves (they rather have a lie of hope than to feel uncomfortable and uncertain when facing the up to date known facts). they do not want to admit the true state of things (the facts we know are not enough for them because there are still a lot of dangers there that could mean it wont be the cure). 

and they feel even better if they surround themselves with ppl who are similar. some of these will start to pretend they know to hear things from a trustworthy source, that _in fact_ are actualy just their hopes.

this is at the very root of every hairloss forum. 

and its up to us to decide, if we want to "lie to feel better" or if we just stop making things up, and make sure that all we know is verified and true state of things as it is now. it takes effort though. believing or making things up is easier. and it becomes very easy after a while when your mind gets totaly twisted with all the rumours that ttogether make a snowball effect.

I basicaly do not believe in any anecdotal evidence. There were too many ppl before who claimed to be an insider or know an insider or know something because "blah blah blah" where in fact the only trust worthy source is the reality.

if you want to get a grasp on reality, then focus on the reality, and not on what ppl say.

*reality is that even already approved medications need aditional trials before they can be approved for medical use (unless they were used off label, which is somehow shady way). the reality is, that latisse was safe and approved for eyes. yet it needs trials for hair and scalp.

this is the reality.*

now just boldly state that you know it wont need any trials. is it in sync with the reality i just described? its not. because its most probably just a projected wish of some desperate balding man.

now realize that most ppl here are desperate, and most desperate ppl act this way. and youll start to see this pattern of snowballing lies everywhere.

----------


## CVAZBAR

I agree with you but this came from Spencer and his camp. I think it is interesting but nothing more until something more comes out, like you've stated. Follica never says shit anyways, so any news from them is worth hearing. Spencer has said that He has no idea what is going on with Follica because of their strict privacy. Who knows how close they are to anything. 

I understand what you're saying and I agree.

----------


## debris

im glad u agree.

it imho does not rly matter WHO says the things.

the rule is simply to focus on reality and not on what ppl say.

when Washenik in 2003 said that its gonna be 5 years for us to get the cure I immediately knew its just his projected wish.

the reality was that trials take 8 years in average and they had not started trials at that time.

its rly that simple to get know the truth. focus on reality not on what ppl say.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Follica have nothing to show so at this point it would be wise to assume they have nothing. If they prove otherwise great. It's unhealthy trying to talk these supposed cures into reality. There's no new treatment coming in the next 2.5-3 years at least. Sad fact of reality.

----------


## UK_

First off, did Joe hear this information directly from the talk that was held?....

Is there any way someone could upload the talk on this website?  I tried to contact Follica to get a copy of it but have had no reply as of yet.

I just hope their big _"no FDA requirement"_ surprise isnt scalp pigmentation or... the dreaded... HAIR MAX LASER COMB! :Big Grin: 

They had some patent filing for a lithium based treatment for hair loss a while back, I dont know the details on this treatment, so I wont be making snap judgements, it could be a component of a far different holistic procedure, some people have made comments about lithium having _"moderate to mild effects"_ for hair loss -and that Follicas attempts here are fruitless.  Until we know what they are actually doing none of us here can make any judgements.

----------


## RichardDawkins

damage skin, and pour some stem cell enriched gel on it seems their plan

----------


## UK_

I just hope its not PRP+ a dermaroller :Big Grin: .

----------


## RichardDawkins

Nope because they simple could not sell such a thing because they are not Gho :-) he would sell you this stuff as Hair multiplication ^^

----------


## debris

> damage skin, and pour some stem cell enriched gel on it seems their plan


 where do u get the stemcell part from? all their human trials so far were about lithium 8&#37;

----------


## RichardDawkins

WIld guess? COuld be possible because this gel is more of a consistent mass instead of just an liquid solution, so this could beneficial dht resistent stem cells.

There are many possible solutions and ideas

----------


## debris

and thats exactly what i have been talking about on the page before.

anyway. nevermind.

----------


## UK_

> where do u get the stemcell part from? all their human trials so far were about lithium 8&#37;


 Do you have a link to their clinical trial data for Phase II?  Have they released hair counts or before/afters of any participants?  I tried to do an advanced search on the trial search engine but couldn't find anything.

----------


## debris

> Do you have a link to their clinical trial data for Phase II?  Have they released hair counts or before/afters of any participants?  I tried to do an advanced search on the trial search engine but couldn't find anything.


 Its here:

https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu/ctr-search/

use advanced search and search for follica.

heres the cut and paste of the info:

Summary
EudraCT Number:	2009-018191-34
Sponsor's Protocol Code Number:	FOL003
National Competent Authority:	Germany - BfArM
Clinical Trial Type:	EEA CTA
Trial Status:	Ongoing

Index
A. PROTOCOL INFORMATION
B. SPONSOR INFORMATION
C. APPLICANT IDENTIFICATION
D. IMP IDENTIFICATION
D.8 INFORMATION ON PLACEBO
E. GENERAL INFORMATION ON THE TRIAL
F. POPULATION OF TRIAL SUBJECTS
G. INVESTIGATOR NETWORKS TO BE INVOLVED IN THE TRIAL
N. REVIEW BY THE COMPETENT AUTHORITY OR ETHICS COMMITTEE IN THE COUNTR(IES) CONCERNED
P. END OF TRIAL

	Expand All 	Collapse All

A. Protocol Information	
A.1	Member State Concerned	Germany - BfArM
A.2	EudraCT number	2009-018191-34
A.3	Full title of the trial	
A Study to Explore the Effect of Controlled Cutaneous Perturbation and Pharmacologic Modulation for Inducing Follicular Neogenesis
A.3.1	Title of the trial for lay people, in easily understood, i.e. non-technical, language	
A.3.2	Name or abbreviated title of the trial where available	
Lithium gluconate in hair follicle regrowth
A.4.1	Sponsor's protocol code number	FOL003
A.7	Trial is part of a Paediatric Investigation Plan	Information not present in EudraCT
A.8	EMEA Decision number of Paediatric Investigation Plan	


B. Sponsor Information	
B.Sponsor: 1
B.1.1	Name of Sponsor	Follica Inc.
B.1.3.4	Country	United States
B.3.1 and B.3.2	Status of the sponsor	Commercial
B.4 Source(s) of Monetary or Material Support for the clinical trial:
B.4.1	Name of organisation providing support	
B.4.2	Country	
B.5 Contact point designated by the sponsor for further information on the trial
B.5.1	Name of organisation	
B.5.2	Functional name of contact point	


D. IMP Identification	
D.IMP: 1
D.1.2 and D.1.3	IMP Role	Test
D.2	Status of the IMP to be used in the clinical trial
D.2.1	IMP to be used in the trial has a marketing authorisation	Yes
D.2.1.1.1	Trade name 	LITHIODERM 8% Gel
D.2.1.1.2	Name of the Marketing Authorisation holder	LABCATAL
D.2.1.2	Country which granted the Marketing Authorisation	France
D.2.5	The IMP has been designated in this indication as an orphan drug in the Community	No
D.2.5.1	Orphan drug designation number	
D.3 Description of the IMP
D.3.4	Pharmaceutical form 	Gel
D.3.4.1	Specific paediatric formulation	Information not present in EudraCT
D.3.7	Routes of administration for this IMP	Cutaneous use
Topical use (Noncurrent)
D.3.8 to D.3.10 IMP Identification Details (Active Substances)
D.3.9.1	CAS number 	35941970
D.3.9.3	Other descriptive name	LITHIUM GLUCONATE
D.3.10	Strength
D.3.10.1	Concentration unit 	% (W/W) percent weight/weight
D.3.10.2	Concentration type	equal
D.3.10.3	Concentration number	8
D.3.11 The IMP contains an:
D.3.11.1	Active substance of chemical origin	Yes
D.3.11.2	Active substance of biological/ biotechnological origin (other than Advanced Therapy IMP (ATIMP)	No
	The IMP is a:
D.3.11.3	Advanced Therapy IMP (ATIMP)	Information not present in EudraCT
D.3.11.3.1	Somatic cell therapy medicinal product	No
D.3.11.3.2	Gene therapy medical product	No
D.3.11.3.3	Tissue Engineered Product	Information not present in EudraCT
D.3.11.3.4	Combination ATIMP (i.e. one involving a medical device)	Information not present in EudraCT
D.3.11.3.5	Committee on Advanced therapies (CAT) has issued a classification for this product	Information not present in EudraCT
D.3.11.4	Combination product that includes a device, but does not involve an Advanced Therapy	Information not present in EudraCT
D.3.11.5	Radiopharmaceutical medicinal product	No
D.3.11.6	Immunological medicinal product (such as vaccine, allergen, immune serum)	No
D.3.11.7	Plasma derived medicinal product	No
D.3.11.8	Extractive medicinal product	No
D.3.11.9	Recombinant medicinal product	Information not present in EudraCT
D.3.11.10	Medicinal product containing genetically modified organisms	No
D.3.11.11	Herbal medicinal product	No
D.3.11.12	Homeopathic medicinal product	No
D.3.11.13	Another type of medicinal product	Yes
D.3.11.13.1	Other medicinal product type	Lithium containing gel for treatment of seborrheic dermatitis


D8. Information on Placebo	
D.8 Placebo: 1
D.8.1	Is a Placebo used in this Trial?	Yes
D.8.3	Pharmaceutical form of the placebo	Gel
D.8.4	Route of administration of the placebo	Topical use (Noncurrent)


E. General Information on the Trial	
E.1 Medical condition or disease under investigation
E.1.1	Medical condition(s) being investigated 	
Male subjects with androgenetic alopecia
MedDRA Classification
E.1.2 Medical condition or disease under investigation
E.1.2	Version 	12.1
E.1.2	Level 	LLT
E.1.2	Classification code 	10068168
E.1.2	Term 	Androgenetic alopecia
E.1.3	Condition being studied is a rare disease 	No
E.2 Objective of the trial
E.2.1	Main objective of the trial 	
Primary: To compare changes from Baseline to Day 84 in the number
of photographically detected hairs in subjects treated with
controlled cutaneous perturbation using dermabrasion (DA 
a more superficial perturbation) plus the topical application of
lithium gluconate 8% gel, to those subjects treated with
controlled cutaneous perturbation plus the topical application
of placebo gel.
E.2.2	Secondary objectives of the trial 	
Secondary:
1) To compare the changes from Baseline to Day 168 in the number of photographically detected hairs in subjects treated with controlled cutaneous perturbation using dermabrasion (DA) plus the topical application of lithium
gluconate 8% gel, to those treated with controlled cutaneous perturbation plus the topical application of placebo gel;
2) To compare the number of histologically detected neogenic-like hair follicles in biopsies taken on Day 14 from subjects treated with controlled cutaneous perturbation using dermabrasion (DA) plus topical lithium gluconate 8% gel, to those from subjects treated with dermabrasion plus topical placebo gel;
3) To compare the number of histologically detected hair follicles in biopsies taken on Day 168 from subjects treated with controlled cutaneous perturbation using a
4 mm punch biopsy (BX  a deeper perturbation) plus topical lithium gluconate 8% gel, to those from subjects treated with a 4 mm punch biopsy plus topical placebo gel.
E.2.3	Trial contains a sub-study 	No
E.3	Principal inclusion criteria 	
1. Be able to understand the consent;
2. Sign and date the written informed consent form prior to any study-related activity;
3. Be Caucasian male subjects aged between 20 and 65 years of age who have;
a. androgenetic alopecia with the presence of a vertex transition zone defined as an
area possessing both normal and miniaturized hairs, Hamilton Norwood type 3V,
4, 5, 5A or 5V with a vertex area large enough to accommodate all 3 treatment sites; and
b. a Fitzpatrick skin type 1-4 (higher Fitzpatrick skin type ratings are excluded from
the trial due to the increased risk of keloid formation and hypopigmentation in
these subjects);
4. Be willing and able to comply with the study procedures;
5. Have no foreseeable reason to prevent completion of the study;
6. Be willing to cover the head with a hat or similar protection during exposure to sun;
7. Agree not to take 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors, such as finasteride (PROPECIA), at any time throughout the duration of this clinical study.
E.4	Principal exclusion criteria	
1. Participation in another clinical trial within the 30 days directly preceding the study, or earlier participation in the study;
2. Simultaneous participation in another clinical trial;
3. Any suspicion of drug and/or alcohol abuse;
4. A clinical history suggestive of intolerance, allergies or idiosyncrasies to the study drug(s) or the ingredients of the product(s), or to agents that may be used in any of the trial procedures;
5. A psychiatric condition that might limit the participation in the trial and/or that lead to the assumption that the ability to completely understand the consequences of consent is missing;
6. Is an employee of the study site or of the Sponsors company;
7. Any disease or circumstances on account of which the subject should not participate in the study in the opinion of the investigator. This includes any clinically significant medical condition that may interfere with the interpretation of the study results, including an uncontrolled chronic disease including, but not exclusive of, history of clinically significant diseases e.g. cardiovascular, haematological, endocrine, hepatic, renal, immunodeficiency disorder, coagulation abnormalities or malignancy.
Specific exclusions:
8. Female hair pattern (female pattern alopecia)
9. History of keloids or hypertrophic scarring;
10. History of poor wound healing;
11. History of diabetes mellitus;
12. History of coagulopathy/bleeding diathesis;
13. History of hypersensitivity to lidocaine
14. Immune compromise or undergoing therapy to treat an immune disorder;
15. Serum creatinine, blood urea nitrogen (BUN) or HGB-A1C above the upper limits of normal (ULN), clinically significant abnormalities in liver function tests (3 times the upper limit of normal); gamma glutamyl transpeptidase (GGT), alkaline phosphatase, aspartate aminotransferase (AST) or alanine aminotransferase (ALT); or the presence of proteinuria (greater than a trace on urine dipstick); results to be confirmed by Day -14. All these values are based on the ULN for the laboratory performing the safety labs;
16. Clinically significant abnormalities in vital signs or ECG results, in the opinion of the
investigator;
17. HIV, hepatitis B, hepatitis C positivity (negative status for each must be confirmed by Day -14);
18. Diagnosis of any active skin condition that would interfere with study procedures or
evaluations;
19. Sunburned skin;
20. Previous hair transplant surgery;
21. Current or recent use (within preceding 6 months) of isoretinoin (ROACCUTANE);
22. Current or recent use (within preceding 6 months) of minoxidil (ROGAINE);
23. Unwillingness to abstain from the personal use of hair dye from the start of screening through and including the last study visit;
24. Started, stopped, changed dose or changed regimen of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors, such as finasteride (PROPECIA), within the preceding 12 months;
25. Current or recent use (within preceding 30 days) of hormone therapy, corticosteroids (except inhaled steroids or topical steroids to non-scalp areas) or other
immunomodulators;
26. Current or recent use (within preceding 30 days) of any lithium-containing product;
27. Current or recent use (within preceding 14 days) of an anticoagulant or antiplatelet agent, including acetylsalicylic acid.
28. Current or recent use (within preceding 30 days) of caffeine containing shampoo or other treatments applied to scalp to increase hair growth.
E.5 End points
E.5.1	Primary end point(s)	
Primary endpoint: The change from Baseline to Day 84 in the number of hairs
captured by photography in the Target Analysis Area (DA  a
more superficial perturbation).

Secondary endpoint:
1) the change from Baseline to Day 168 in the number of hairs captured by photography in the Target Analysis Area (DA);
2) the number of neogenic-like hair follicles detected histologically in a first skin punch biopsy taken 14 days after the dermabrasion and topical treatment (Day 14);
3) the number of hair follicles detected histologically in a second skin punch biopsy, which is taken approximately 5.5 months after the first biopsy (Day 168), at the site of
the first biopsy (BX  a deeper perturbation) that was
allowed to heal by secondary intention.

Exploratory Efficacy, and Safety and PK Endpoints:
1) the number of hairs captured by photography in the Circular Biopsy Area (BX) a) at Day 84 and b) at Day 168;
2) the hair shaft thickness captured by photography a) at Day 84 and b) at Day 168 in the Circular Biopsy Area (BX);
3) the difference in hair shaft thickness captured by photography a) from Baseline to Day 84 and b) from Baseline to Day 168 in the Target Analysis Area (DA);
4) the histological characteristics in a second skin punch biopsy on Day 168;
5) clinical evaluation using the Vancouver Scar Scale (VSS) on Day 84 and Day 168, versus Baseline;
6) photographic evaluation of scar attributes on Day 84 and Day 168, versus Baseline.
E.6 and E.7 Scope of the trial
E.6	Scope of the trial
E.6.1	Diagnosis	No
E.6.2	Prophylaxis	No
E.6.3	Therapy	No
E.6.4	Safety	Yes
E.6.5	Efficacy	Yes
E.6.6	Pharmacokinetic	Yes
E.6.7	Pharmacodynamic	No
E.6.8	Bioequivalence	No
E.6.9	Dose response	No
E.6.10	Pharmacogenetic	No
E.6.11	Pharmacogenomic	No
E.6.12	Pharmacoeconomic	No
E.6.13	Others	No
E.7	Trial type and phase
E.7.1	Human pharmacology (Phase I)	No
E.7.1.1	First administration to humans	No
E.7.1.2	Bioequivalence study	No
E.7.1.3	Other	No
E.7.2	Therapeutic exploratory (Phase II)	Yes
E.7.3	Therapeutic confirmatory (Phase III)	No
E.7.4	Therapeutic use (Phase IV)	No
E.8 Design of the trial
E.8.1	Controlled	Yes
E.8.1.1	Randomised	Yes
E.8.1.2	Open	No
E.8.1.3	Single blind	No
E.8.1.4	Double blind 	Yes
E.8.1.5	Parallel group	Yes
E.8.1.6	Cross over 	No
E.8.1.7	Other	No
E.8.2	Comparator of controlled trial
E.8.2.1	Other medicinal product(s)	No
E.8.2.2	Placebo 	Yes
E.8.2.3	Other 	No
E.8.3	The trial involves single site in the Member State concerned 	No
E.8.4	The trial involves multiple sites in the Member State concerned	Yes
E.8.4.1	Number of sites anticipated in Member State concerned	2
E.8.5	The trial involves multiple Member States	No
E.8.6 Trial involving sites outside the EEA
E.8.6.1	Trial being conducted both within and outside the EEA	No
E.8.6.2	Trial being conducted completely outside of the EEA	Information not present in EudraCT
E.8.7	Trial has a data monitoring committee	No
E.8.8	Definition of the end of the trial and justification where it is not the last visit of the last subject undergoing the trial	
End of study is the last visit of the last subject.
E.8.9 Initial estimate of the duration of the trial
E.8.9.1	In the Member State concerned years	1
E.8.9.1	In the Member State concerned months	0
E.8.9.1	In the Member State concerned days	0
E.8.9.2	In all countries concerned by the trial years	0
E.8.9.2	In all countries concerned by the trial months	0
E.8.9.2	In all countries concerned by the trial days	0


F. Population of Trial Subjects	
F.1 Age Range
F.1.1	Trial has subjects under 18	No
F.1.1.1	In Utero	No
F.1.1.2	Preterm newborn infants (up to gestational age < 37 weeks)	No
F.1.1.3	Newborns (0-27 days)	No
F.1.1.4	Infants and toddlers (28 days-23 months)	No
F.1.1.5	Children (2-11years)	No
F.1.1.6	Adolescents (12-17 years)	No
F.1.2	Adults (18-64 years)	Yes
F.1.3	Elderly (>=65 years)	No
F.2 Gender
F.2.1	Female 	No
F.2.2	Male 	Yes
F.3 Group of trial subjects
F.3.1	Healthy volunteers 	Yes
F.3.2	Patients 	No
F.3.3	Specific vulnerable populations 	No
F.3.3.1	Women of childbearing potential not using contraception 	No
F.3.3.2	Women of child-bearing potential using contraception 	No
F.3.3.3	Pregnant women 	No
F.3.3.4	Nursing women 	No
F.3.3.5	Emergency situation 	No
F.3.3.6	Subjects incapable of giving consent personally 	No
F.3.3.7	Others 	No
F.4 Planned number of subjects to be included
F.4.1	In the member state	62
F.4.2	For a multinational trial
F.4.2.1	In the EEA 	0
F.4.2.2	In the whole clinical trial 	0
F.5	Plans for treatment or care after the subject has ended the participation in the trial (if it is different from the expected normal treatment of that condition)	
No treatment or care is planned after the subject has ended his participation in the trial.


G. Investigator Networks to be involved in the Trial	



N. Review by the Competent Authority or Ethics Committee in the countr(ies) concerned	
N.	Competent Authority Decision 	Authorised
N.	Date of Competent Authority Decision or Application withdrawal 	2010-05-18
N.	Ethics Committee Opinion of the trial application	Favourable
N.	If an unfavorable opinion or withdrawal, give reasons for the unfavorable opinion/withdrawal	
N.	Date of Ethics Committee Opinion or Application withdrawal	2010-07-21


P. End of Trial	
P.	End of Trial Status

----------


## debris

There is a guy on the other site who supposedly tried pretty much exactly this protocol (deep wounding + lithium 8&#37 :Wink:  and then he also tried again with immuno suppresion. he followed the articles and patents as closely as he could.

He grew absolutely no hair what so ever in both cases.

----------


## UK_

So have they abandoned their "wnt"/gene therapy approach?

If they've failed on their previous approaches then we're all pretty much screwed b/c this lithium treatment doesn't look at all promising.

I really wanna find out what they spoke of at that conference, *they must have mentioned something about the trial, good or bad.*

----------


## debris

> So have they abandoned their "wnt"/gene therapy approach?


 no one rly knows. their research shows that lithium is the wnt modulator that they use. or thats how i understood it. there are some papers around so if youre interested you can read them. lithium + wounding grew most of hair in mice experiments. thats what i remember from one of the papers.

----------


## UK_

Oh right thanks, yeah sorry im a bit lazy to read up on all their latest releases lol.

Thanks for the information though.

----------


## UK Boy

Reading through that whole patent thing makes me feel less comfortable with Follica's treatment. I knew they were using wounding but I always thought it would be very superficial. They say it's dermabrasion which I've heard of before and didn't think caused scaring cos people have it done to re-juvinate the skin on their faces. When you read the conditions to be a test subject it mentions that you can't be susceptible to keloid scaring or hyper-pigmentation though and I've always associated these kinds of scaring with full depth wounds like the type you get from a traditional transplant. The whole reason I'm interested in the new generation of treatments is in part due to the fact that they talk about being minimally invasive - no scaring - so if there's gonna be a risk of getting scars all over your scalp with Follica's treatment then I'm gonna count it out anyway.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I'd agree with that. Doesn't sound like a runner to me. I'm now wondering if Histogen and Aderans will supplement each other. That's my hope anyway. Also hopefully Aderans compounds. I was initially under the impression that they would inject the cellular 'seeds' so to speak for individual follicles, as in 90 small injections in 1 square centimetre for 90 follicles, but now I'm not so sure that that's what they're doing. The last presentation I saw made it seem quite similiar to HSC albeit using you're own cells.

----------


## UK_

Well the treatment would fail clinical trial if it created scar tissue, so you wouldn't even have the chance to use it.  I doubt we can just write it off on the basis of our _'clinical knowledge'_.

Follica are a highly secretive company, I doubt anyone could even come close to mimicking the process they have spent all this time working on, I do believe they have something.

----------


## Flowers

> Well the treatment would fail clinical trial if it created scar tissue, so you wouldn't even have the chance to use it.  I doubt we can just write it off on the basis of our _'clinical knowledge'_.
> 
> Follica are a highly secretive company, I doubt anyone could even come close to mimicking the process they have spent all this time working on, I do believe they have something.


 Have they given us any type of time frame at all? I know histogen and aderans say 2014-15 (but who knows with them...)

----------


## UK_

> Have they given us any type of time frame at all? I know histogen and aderans say 2014-15 (but who knows with them...)


 Not too sure on that one, God knows when/if they will make public the results of their Phase II.

----------


## Flowers

> Not too sure on that one, God knows when/if they will make public the results of their Phase II.


 Oh alright. And are they doing phase II now? Sorry I'm not completely up to date on all of these companies

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Well the treatment would fail clinical trial if it created scar tissue, so you wouldn't even have the chance to use it.  I doubt we can just write it off on the basis of our _'clinical knowledge'_.
> 
> Follica are a highly secretive company, I doubt anyone could even come close to mimicking the process they have spent all this time working on, I do believe they have something.


 That's the problem with Follica. They don't say shit, so it's really hard to know anything. They release bits of news and nothing more. I wasn't able to listen to the whole shit but they are using 
a compound and according to Joe, they did not want to say what it is, for obvious reasons. Nobody is saying they have the cure, this is just info for the public. It's always good to hear anything that comes out of them, since they stay quiet. We are so used to ****ing promises and companies talking loud but never bring shit. Follica has made some valuable discoveries so we know they are not playing. They might have something like you say but Who knows how close they are to something big.

----------


## UK_

> That's the problem with Follica. They don't say shit, so it's really hard to know anything. They release bits of news and nothing more. I wasn't able to listen to the whole shit but they are using 
> a compound and according to Joe, they did not want to say what it is, for obvious reasons. Nobody is saying they have the cure, this is just info for the public. It's always good to hear anything that comes out of them, since they stay quiet. We are so used to ****ing promises and companies talking loud but never bring shit. Follica has made some valuable discoveries so we know they are not playing. They might have something like you say but Who knows how close they are to something big.


 Are there any Phase I results?  I know they're v secretive but we're sure to see the results of the impending Phase II half-way point right?

If they really had something remarkable then you'd expect them to voice their results to potential investors.  How would information for investors differ to that of the information they provide for potential consumers?

----------


## Losing_It

Well i don't understand the secrecy. You would imagine if they had successful Phase 1 results they would have announced it. However, the fact that they are in the Phase 2 remains promising, lets just hope they make it through this Phase as there will be a 70&#37; chance that Phase 3 will be successful.

----------


## UK_

> Well i don't understand the secrecy. You would imagine if they had successful Phase 1 results they would have announced it. However, the fact that they are in the Phase 2 remains promising, lets just hope they make it through this Phase as there will be a 70&#37; chance that Phase 3 will be successful.


 I know... if they've been so successful then where are Phase I results?

Surely if someone wanted to invest [at this point] they'd need to see current progress, without it you can't sell added share value and raise capital to progress research.

----------


## Losing_It

So we can safely assume then that the Phase 1 results were not that impressive. The lack of information probably means that its a dud.

----------


## LarryDavid

Jesus, did you even read the histogen page?

"The Company is scheduled to begin a Phase I/II clinical trial of its Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC) in Singapore in Spring 2011"

They started phase I and II this month. On the histogen page you can see the results from the preclinical trials which are impressive.

----------


## Sogeking

> Jesus, did you even read the histogen page?
> 
> "The Company is scheduled to begin a Phase I/II clinical trial of its Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC) in Singapore in Spring 2011"
> 
> They started phase I and II this month. On the histogen page you can see the results from the preclinical trials which are impressive.


 Larry we are talking about Follica. I know its not the right thread or topic but the conversation just went there.
UK they have passed Phase 1 but maybe they are going through with Phase 2 just to justify projcet costs and inital investments. Maybe the results are minimalistic but they still want to milk some money out if it. 
But this is just inexcusable speculation from my part. However I am a pessimist.

----------


## LarryDavid

ah ok sorry!

Regarding Follica: In case they have enough money (i dont know that) why would they publish their phase 1 results?

----------


## UK_

They always state in interviews _"for business reasons we can't go into too much detail"_ - I suppose releasing data on trials successful or not is going pretty heavy into detail.  I mean look at how much Histogen revealed about their process just by releasing trial data from Phase I.

----------


## RichardDawkins

well sorry but i would be more shocked if they would release stuff all the time. The worst companies in the past were those who gave away too much.

----------


## Flowers

Yeah maybe follica just doesn't wanna constanty update because when companies do that you have reactions like histogen has. Too much pressure to follow up a phase/ trial that people find insignificant or too promising. Follica probably just wanna get the work done (if they're really onto something) and then make the announcement that they have it. Then they'll get all the attention and more that announcing trial results for years could give them.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Same goes for Histogen. I doubt that we will hear anything in the near future except when they finish certain key points

But one thing is for sure here, all of them have shown regrowth and sustaining hair :-) but the only bad thing is the waiting time. But the relief will be great

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Are there any Phase I results?  I know they're v secretive but we're sure to see the results of the impending Phase II half-way point right?
> 
> If they really had something remarkable then you'd expect them to voice their results to potential investors.  How would information for investors differ to that of the information they provide for potential consumers?


 Like I said, they didn't speak about trials. Don't expect to hear 
much from them. It's all "business" with them and secrecy due to investors. Spencer can't even get interviews with them. Spencer constantly says that if any news would come, he would hear about it first. I guess that's why they reported this on the show. Regardless, we don't know if it's minor or major but we know they got something going on.

----------


## CVAZBAR

It would be nice if Joe could post his news here. Tell us exactly what he heard. Joe is the main reason why I listen to the show. His weekly news. Help us out Joe!

----------


## UK Boy

Scientists find a 'cure' for grey hair 
By Ceri Roberts, Jun 17, 2011

If you're fed up with dyeing your hair to hide those grey roots, we've got some good news. 

Scientists have identified a protein called 'wnt' that's responsible for the production of colour in each of our strands of hair. 

In a series of experiments they discovered that this protein is key to hair retaining its colour and it also stimulates hair growth and produces new hair follicles. 

As a result, we could look forward to the development of drugs, lotions and shampoos that raise levels of wnt - and restore white or grey hair to its original colour. 

And as the same protein is responsible for hair growth, boosting levels of wnt could also help to prevent the thinning that often occurs with age. 

Writing in the journal Cell, the researchers from New York University's Lagone Medical Centre explain that the protein wnt kickstarts a chain of reactions that lead to stem cells in the scalp maturing and producing the pigment that gives hair its colour. 

They have yet to discover whether it's a fault in this system that causes us to go grey. 

Most Britons notice their first grey hair at around the age of 25.

It's thought that genetics determine if and when a person will go grey, but stress, smoking, alcohol, poor diet and even dyeing your hair blonde are all thought to speed up the process.

I posted this on it's own thread but thought I'd also add it on to here because it seems to me to back up the science behind Histogens procedure.

These researchers are confirming that WNT is involved in stimulating hair growth and the production of new follicles. It's good to see that it will also help with greying of hair. I also think it's great to know other researchers are working with WNT in regards to hair issues and they talk about bringing out a product that will increase WNT levels. One product that could basically deal with the two main problems people suffer with regarding hair (greying and hair loss) would be a huge deal.

----------


## RichardDawkins

ok am i the only one who thinks grey hair is attractive?

----------


## BoSox

> ok am i the only one who thinks grey hair is attractive?


 I'm 26 years old. I've always thought white was attractive, even a touch of grey hair. Nothing wrong with grey hair, at all.

----------


## UK Boy

I agree with you guys, I don't have a problem with grey/white hair although white hair does sometimes look thin due to being void of colour. 

I'd give anything to be greying rather than balding, I think eveyone on here would. 

However I do think that balding and greying at the two main issues people have regarding hair. You just have to look at the huge range of hair dyes for both men and women whenever you go to the supermarket. 

Therefore I believe there will be a real interest in producing a product that will raise WNT levels and be a solution to both greying and hair loss. It will appeal to a huge range of people - basically all adult men and women who want to hold off the signs of aging.

----------


## Flowers

> These researchers are confirming that WNT is involved in stimulating hair growth and the production of new follicles. It's good to see that it will also help with greying of hair.


 Where did they confirm the production of new follicles?

----------


## UK Boy

"In a series of experiments they discovered that this protein is key to hair retaining its colour and it also stimulates hair growth and *produces new hair follicles."*

It states it in the article.

----------


## Flowers

> "In a series of experiments they discovered that this protein is key to hair retaining its colour and it also stimulates hair growth and *produces new hair follicles."*
> 
> It states it in the article.


 Oh nice. My bad. So now what, they start researching and doing trials for a product?

----------


## Sogeking

> Oh nice. My bad. So now what, they start researching and doing trials for a product?


 Maybe who knows. But still it will be a product which will prevent the hair to go gray. What is important to us is the fact there was an independent study, unrelated to Histogen which says that new hair follicles grow when introduced with wnt proteins.
And HSC of Histogen is based on wnt proteins. I'm slightly more optimistic now.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Scientists have known for like 20 years that WNT proteins lead to increased hair growth yet all they've been doing is dicking around with mice experiments.  And they get paid very handsomely for it!!

----------


## BaldingBackwards

Actually the technolgoy that they use were they simulate an embryonic condition was not out till recently. There knowledge was ahead of computers. Science driven by mass experiments and would not be halted by "dicking around". Your hair follicle is clogged with DHT which is why it does not get the natural WNT proteins however with Histogen they inject your hair with those proeteins at the follicle level allowing your hair to grow which from what I understand is 6 year life cycle once begging the growth phaze. This would explain why histogen has seen growth still at the two year mark.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Imagine Histogen turns out better than expected? Like Doc Ziering said, this shit is making me drool ha.

----------


## Flowers

Well hey I'm sure it'll be here in 5 years

----------


## BoSox

I'll be wearing a hair piece in 5 years. That way in 5 years when it's 5 years away, I wouldn't care to wait under 5 years.

----------


## CAlex

I know histogen is still getting candidates and starting the phase 1/2 trials rather shortly. Does anyone have any idea and how long until we might get results, be in pictures or increased hair growth data as was released from their pre clinical trials.

I really think once we know that we will know if histtogen is coming to market or not.

So any idea as to how long the trials they are heading into will take and how long it will take them to gather and release the data? are we looking at 6 months or over a year? I grow tired of checking the forum everyday and getting no new information
a) Basically how long are phase 1/2 trials going to last

----------


## Flowers

@ CAlex
Don't hold your breath

----------


## CAlex

@Flowers thank-you for your useless post.

I read a few of your posts. You dont think anything is coming and that's fine. So stay off these threads as Im sure you could find better use of your time

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Hey BoSox, I feel what you're saying; I've been hearing that 5 year stuff for a while now.  However, my favorite is when scientists find some so-called discovery that grows hair on mice and then say that it 'might', 'may', or 'could' lead to a treatment for hair loss.  And that they say that this so-called discovery offers 'insight', 'clues', and 'alternate interpretations' into 'complex' phenomenon of hair loss.  We've heard all of the quoted buzz words before.  I give Follica and Histogen tons of credit.  They're trying to develop an effective treatment or cure for hair loss as opposed to some of these other scientists who will test on mice until the cows come home, and sell their so-called discoveries to scientific publications, luring them in by claiming that these so-called discoveries 'may', 'could', or 'might' lead to a cure for hair loss.  Hell, I 'may', 'could', or 'might' step outside of my house and get run over by a Mack truck!  If we had more Follicas or Histogens, then we may actually have a cure for this dreaded disease.

----------


## debris

> I know histogen is still getting candidates and starting the phase 1/2 trials rather shortly. Does anyone have any idea and how long until we might get results, be in pictures or increased hair growth data as was released from their pre clinical trials.
> 
> I really think once we know that we will know if histtogen is coming to market or not.
> 
> So any idea as to how long the trials they are heading into will take and how long it will take them to gather and release the data? are we looking at 6 months or over a year? I grow tired of checking the forum everyday and getting no new information
> a) Basically how long are phase 1/2 trials going to last


 Recruiting of large amounts of ppl takes time, they do not all get injected in one week, it can take months or even a half a year or longer before the last patient is recruited. And you wont get any results before the last patient finishes the study and results are processed.

Do your math yourself.

----------


## Flowers

> @Flowers thank-you for your useless post.
> 
> I read a few of your posts. You dont think anything is coming and that's fine. So stay off these threads as Im sure you could find better use of your time


 Is the attitude really necessary dude? If you read my posts then you saw that I believe FUE/CIT + Acell looks promising, especially if Cole is being honest.  Don't be offended that I said it won't be out soon but what are we supposed to say? Yes! A cure! 
Don't be naive dude it won't be around soon surgical is really whats going to progress first

----------


## RichardDawkins

jep a surgical procedure will be here sooner then the magic pill. ike it or not

----------


## UK Boy

Hey

I'm sure other guys on here also read the Hair site forums -  Richard.Dawkins I believe you are on there a lot and have a lot of discussions with Iron_Man. Well Iron_Man reckons Histogen won't work and he bases it all on quotes from Cotsarelis' findings.

*"This suggests that these Wnt-overexpressing mice were already
predisposed to growing more hair. Thus, Cotsarelis' recognition
that "... to date there has been no evidence that
extracellular Wnt ligands can promote actual hair follicle neogenesis in
adult skin"(Ito et al. 2007, Nature 447:316-321 , at p. 319) remains correct."* 

No one's discussed this on here and I'm just wondering what people think in regards to it. As Dr.Ziering reads the threads on here I'm hoping he might give some kinda input as to how Histogen are making this work.

I like Histogen and I really want them to work but reading Iron_Man's findings has made me worry. I know he's not a reliable source at all and he's always very pessimistic about everything other than when it suits him but it's still got me worried.

----------


## UK_

> Hey
> 
> I'm sure other guys on here also read the Hair site forums -  Richard.Dawkins I believe you are on there a lot and have a lot of discussions with Iron_Man. Well Iron_Man reckons Histogen won't work and he bases it all on quotes from Cotsarelis' findings.
> 
> *"This suggests that these Wnt-overexpressing mice were already
> predisposed to growing more hair. Thus, Cotsarelis' recognition
> that "... to date there has been no evidence that
> extracellular Wnt ligands can promote actual hair follicle neogenesis in
> adult skin"(Ito et al. 2007, Nature 447:316-321 , at p. 319) remains correct."* 
> ...


 You forgot to post the first part of that Cotsarelis quote, he states that _"it is POSSIBLE that the larger number of dermal papilla cells contributes to the greater number of hair follicles that form after wounding"_.

I would note here that Iron Man's quote is obviously not applicable to humans, he is also quoting an article (ONE ARTICLE) that was prior to the discovery of the fact that MPB is classed as *"non-scarring"* -in that stem cells are still present in bald scalps, the *"larger number of cells"* would be as appropriate in humans given the discovery of existing stem cells in bald scalps - this is precisely the contention Histogen officials are holding regarding the positive results of their pilot study - a study that Iron_Man more or less claims was completely fabricated - please Iron_Man, inform the investors of your remarkable detective work regarding the trials.

It would be great if Iron_Man could also explain the following:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-23206344/

The articles Iron_Man looks at are old, he states that 'Cotsarelis seems to have given up on the whole wnt idea' - well if that is so, and Iron_Man seems to have the eyes nobody else has behind the doors of Follica - then why are Follica in Phase II with a compound that upregulates WNT signalling?

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yes iam Stevie.Dee there that the correct observation., but right now Iron_Mans credibility is with all due respect down the drain because he always comes up with stuff that suits him best.

He has written a lot of Pro Histogen stuff at a german board and then he calls it wet dream at hair site. And then he stated "If HSC is not fully working like you want it to be"

Dont take him so seriously because there are "PLENTY OF WAYS TO SKIN THE CAT"

Also Iron Man faild to explain why Histogen got obvious hair regrowth, i guess after this question of mine he called me Psycho loser again. Btw he was here as HairRobinHood i belive anyway he was banned here

----------


## UK_

> Writing in the journal Cell, they show that the protein kick-starts a chain of reactions which lead to stem or 'mother' cells in the scalp maturing and producing the pigment that gives hair its colour.  *Wnt is also vital for hair growth, suggesting that a treatment that keeps hair dark would have the added advantage of also stopping it from thinning.**  Previous research showed that wnt is also responsible for the production of new hair follicles*
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#ixzz1PkldyJEz


 I am guessing it's all one big lie though eh Iron_Man?

We shall see with Histogen's upcoming phase I/II trials - Gail Naughton stated there is a 97&#37; chance they will repeat the findings, but of course - for Iron_Man everything would be a lie, I personally don't know why he's worried about hair loss, can't even tell with that tin foil hat on all the time.

----------


## RichardDawkins

I can give you the answer UK_

ron Man had numerous bad transplants in the past and they are botched to an extree extend. And Iron Man knows that HSC wont rejuvenate his destroyed follicles in the recipient side and donor side. Therefore he rushes people to Gho, because for Iron Man there is only one option, get his problem fixed by a surgicial REPAIR procedure.

So he always destroys all injectible solutions because he simply cannot accept that others dont have to suffer what he did.

The time i found out about it was when he first bashed Dr Cotsarelis, but after he witnessed that Cotsarelis does something with WOUNDHEALING he opened his ears and saw that maybe there is a slim chance for Iron Man that if they wound his scars, he can get a few hairs back, thats why he is praising them.

So in easy words, Iron Man is a guy who is bitter and desperate and cant accept other people to be more happy. If you guys dont belive me just look at his postings.

He knows that HSC works to a degree but guess what everytime he dismisses it and i or others ask this question

"But how come Histogen got hair regrowth"

He attacks people or ignores the question

----------


## UK Boy

Thanks for the reassuring posts UK and Richard.Dawkins. 

I did pick up on a lot of those facts about Iron Man from his posts but when I read his whole thread about why Histogen won't work and it seemed as if he had evidence from Cotsarelis' camp to back it up I just started to feel worried. Even though people brought up points against him he always seemed to have an answer. 

I do feel sorry for the guy if it's true about his scarred head though, that's why I'd never even consider a conventional transplant - can't understand why there's still young guys going out there and still having strip surgery.

I agree with what you're saying in regards to that article though UK, if you look back on this thread you'll see that I posted about it a couple of days ago, it's definately reassuring that researchers independant from Histogen have confirmed the benefits of WNT on hair. I mean I was happy about that news and it was when I read the equivilent thread on Hair Site that I saw Iron Man's comments.

Well anywayz we're two thirds of the way through June now so hopefully Histogen will have soon enroled all their test patients and we'll get an update telling us that the trial is starting.

I saw recently that someone got an email from Gail back at the start of the year and the timeline really was very short. I think you commented on that thread UK but I'll copy it and post it here in a mo - it was very encouraging.

----------


## CAlex

> I am guessing it's all one big lie though eh Iron_Man?
> 
> We shall see with Histogen's upcoming phase I/II trials - Gail Naughton stated there is a 97% chance they will repeat the findings, but of course - for Iron_Man everything would be a lie, I personally don't know why he's worried about hair loss, can't even tell with that tin foil hat on all the time.


 Where is the link to her comments? 

This is very exciting for me because even if they able to just repeat the  number of hairs per cm2 over a larger area consistently I will basically be cured. I am not on any meds and I dont think I am losing any ground. If I am it is very slowly.

----------


## UK Boy

Westonci posted this on another thread on 19/01/2011. I really hope this is truely their expected timeline as it gives me real hope. I know they didn't start in May as planned but even if they start in July going by this they should still have phase III data ready by the end of 2012!

*We are starting phase 1/2 in Singapore before the end of May and hope to have phase 3 pan-Asian data by Sept 2012 for an NDA submission and 2013 approval. (hopefull Q2 2013).

We will be starting to collect info on volunteers shortly.

Please write me in May for an update.

Thanks and take care,

Gail*

----------


## UK_

> Where is the link to her comments?


 Sorry, she stated _"a greater than 97&#37; chance"_

http://www.thebaldtruth.com/articles...wth-interview/

----------


## CAlex

> Sorry, she stated "a greater than 97&#37; chance"


 only 12 people actually got the hsc injection. Not sure how she can be 97% sure it is repeatable. I am happy though. 

I am not familiar with trials but in a phase 3 do they give all the patients a full treatment as they would if it was in clinics? I mean is it like just a much smaller real world test to see if the product can achieve a full head of hair or is it still testing for efficacy and safety?

If it is just an early real world treatment conduced as a trial I would totally sign up.

END NOTE: it surprised me the areas that were wounded did not respond the best as I thought wounding can play a major role in regrowth

----------


## RichardDawkins

There are plenty ways to skin a cat

----------


## UK_

> only 12 people actually got the hsc injection.  Not sure how she can be 97&#37; sure it is repeatable.


 26 patients were enrolled and 24 patients received injections.

----------


## RichardDawkins

12 or 26 it doesnt matter :-)

I like it how people here who obviously have an agenda try to sound smart but then even dont get the numbers correct :-)

Tzzzzz

----------


## CAlex

I just thought the amount of patients in the trial would have been split in half. If the results are the basically 100% repeatable and they show that in phase 1/2 over an even larger area without any side effects this would be a "cure" for myself and anyone who is just beginning hair loss since it appears to strengthen weaker hairs or hairs that would have eventually begun to die out.

Is that agenda comment directed at me RichardDawkins? Id love to know what it is lol besides this hsc passing the upcoming trials. I will be so excited if they match the preclinical trials numbers.

----------


## UK_

> I just thought the amount of patients in the trial would have been split in half.


 Why would they do that?  20 of the 24 patients experienced _'statistically significant hair growth at the three efficacy endpoints'_ - that means those patients experienced similar gains at similar times, which is why Gail stated there is such a high degree that these findings will be repeated especially given that this was merely a safety run, the trial wasnt even aimed at producing evidence of efficacy yet, that is the job of the current trial.




> If the results are the basically 100&#37; repeatable and they show that in phase 1/2 over an even larger area without any side effects this would be a "cure" for myself and anyone who is just beginning hair loss since it appears to strengthen weaker hairs or hairs that would have eventually begun to die out.


 Well that's the basic idea.

----------


## CAlex

> Originally posted by *UK*_
> Why would they do that? 20 of the 24 patients experienced 'statistically significant hair growth at the three efficacy endpoints' - that means those patients experienced similar gains at similar times, which is why Gail stated there is such a high degree that these findings will be repeated especially given that this was merely a safety run, the trial wasnt even aimed at producing evidence of efficacy yet, that is the job of the current trial.


 I guess I just didn't recheck the numbers as I looked at that clinical data when it came out a while back. Too many numbers rolling around in my head I guess lol. I thought half of the guys would be taking placebos but maybe it was only a few but it doesn't really matter. The results are very encouraging. I think that the pictures don't even due the increase in new hair justice because of how magnified the area is. People cant see how much denser the area must be to the naked eye.

Im so hopeful that this hsc can get through the upcoming trials without any side effects popping up from increased dosages or higher percentage solution of hsc. 

*I appreciate all the corrections on the subject guys.*

----------


## HairTalk

The pilot study of Histogen's H.S.C. used twenty-four subjects, from which half received placebo and the other half received the experimental compound. All twenty-four subjects are used in analyzing results, but in only the latter twelve can one observe the actual effects of the drug.

----------


## HairTalk

> Why would they do that?  20 of the 24 patients experienced _'statistically significant hair growth at the three efficacy endpoints'_ - that means those patients experienced similar gains at similar times, which is why Gail stated there is such a high degree that these findings will be repeated especially given that this was merely a safety run, the trial wasnt even aimed at producing evidence of efficacy yet, that is the job of the current trial.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the basic idea.


 Twenty of twenty-four subjects' experiencing growth simply means a number of those in the control, too, exhibited growth.

----------


## UK_

> The pilot study of Histogen's H.S.C. used twenty-four subjects, from which half received placebo and the other half received the experimental compound. All twenty-four subjects are used in analyzing results, but in only the latter twelve can one observe the actual effects of the drug.


 Have you a link to the source that confirms this?

I thought all patients received the following:

_1.One placebo injection

2.One regular HSC injection

3.One dermabraded area with regular HSC

4.One area with a higher concentration of HSC_

A number of those in the control exhibited growth?... ?  Your saying a number of those patients who received only a control experienced growth of _new hair_?

----------


## HairTalk

> Have you a link to the source that confirms this?
> 
> I thought all patients received the following:
> 
> _1.One placebo injection
> 
> 2.One regular HSC injection
> 
> 3.One dermabraded area with regular HSC
> ...


 Yes, I am saying a number of patients in the control group experienced growth of new hair. I recall asking Histogen about this, via e-mail, a few months ago, and this seemed to be the answer given (I'll post the conversation, if I can locate it). Also, I draw the notion of two separate subject groups  a control and an experimental  from this graph, presented on the company's Web site: http://www.histogen.com/images/termi...sity_graph.gif (found at, http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#25, about a third of a way down the page).

I admit I might be misinterpreting something, here; perhaps Dr. Ziering (or someone else properly affiliated with research on H.S.C.) could shed a bit of light on the matter.

----------


## UK_

Well if that's the case, I wonder what was in the control!! - dihydrogen monoxide probably -the holy grail lol.

I always thought they split the scalp into four different parts and had the control and HSC in different quadrants (I mean, that's how Aderans do it lol), I assumed this when Gail Naughton stated the following:

_"There were no adverse reactions seen in any of the treated 24 patients at baseline"_

I mean, you dont ever expect to see adverse reactions if someone just takes the sugar pill...

----------


## UK_

http://singularityhub.com/2011/06/14...without-scars/

*Sigh*... if only they could just invent a hairspray that....

----------


## CAlex

> http://singularityhub.com/2011/06/14...without-scars/


 That is amazing. Disheartening it is not yet approved in the U.S. which scares me a bit. Im glad histogen is planning on release outside the United states due to how bad of a job the fda does.

Made me smile seeing that kid ending up with no scares on his chest. Glad to see futuristic seeming treatments already being used in hospitals.

----------


## RichardDawkins

> That is amazing. Disheartening it is not yet approved in the U.S. which scares me a bit. Im glad histogen is planning on release outside the United states due to how bad of a job the fda does.
> 
> Made me smile seeing that kid ending up with no scares on his chest. Glad to see futuristic seeming treatments already being used in hospitals.


 Fully agree, and also all those results can be beneficial for which is good

----------


## UK_

Wanna see something cool?

http://singularityhub.com/2010/04/05...-butter-video/

Watch the video.

----------


## crowningglory

> Yes, I am saying a number of patients in the control group experienced growth of new hair. I recall asking Histogen about this, via e-mail, a few months ago, and this seemed to be the answer given (I'll post the conversation, if I can locate it). Also, I draw the notion of two separate subject groups  a control and an experimental  from this graph, presented on the company's Web site: http://www.histogen.com/images/termi...sity_graph.gif (found at, http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#25, about a third of a way down the page).
> 
> I admit I might be misinterpreting something, here; perhaps Dr. Ziering (or someone else properly affiliated with research on H.S.C.) could shed a bit of light on the matter.


 Interesting stuff. Who is carrying out this study - Histogen itself or a third party?

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I am very glad that Histogen plans to release HSC outside of the U.S. first.  **** the FDA, they truly are in bed with a lot of the big pharmaceutical companies and care about making money first and foremost.  The FDA currently nitpicks on every little experimental drug coming out on the market, yet they have done absoutely nothing to police the hair transplant business.  I have seen plenty of people on here and other places who have disfigured heads because of the permanent scars yet the FDA does nothing to investigate this.  So anyway, I am very glad that Histogen plans to release HSC outside of the U.S. first.  This is not an issue for me.  I would gladly travel to the moon and back to regain the hair I lost, and I will be on the first plane to Asia once HSC is offered over there.

----------


## Flowers

> I am very glad that Histogen plans to release HSC outside of the U.S. first.  **** the FDA, they truly are in bed with a lot of the big pharmaceutical companies and care about making money first and foremost.  The FDA currently nitpicks on every little experimental drug coming out on the market, yet they have done absoutely nothing to police the hair transplant business.  I have seen plenty of people on here and other places who have disfigured heads because of the permanent scars yet the FDA does nothing to investigate this.  So anyway, I am very glad that Histogen plans to release HSC outside of the U.S. first.  This is not an issue for me.  I would gladly travel to the moon and back to regain the hair I lost, and I will be on the first plane to Asia once HSC is offered over there.


 Well I don't think hair transplants involve food or drugs. But anyway yeah releasing it overseas is probably the best way to go. This is all hypothetical of course as idk why but I don't see histogen coming out very soon. And maybe this has been answered but is anyone concerned with what side effects may be of getting this stuff injected into you?

----------


## CAlex

Flowers I would inject this stuff in my head tomorrow if I could. 57 hairs /cm2 is no joke. There were no side effects or even inflammation in the preclinical trials.

Phase1/2 that should be getting underway soon will answer much more of these questions for us. Im hopeful that they can get a treatment available somewhere[asia etc] by the end of 2014 basically 3 and a 1/2 years from today. AS long as they don't run into anymore legal issues or have any major trial setbacks I feel that is a doable timeline.

I am not one of those people who think they will have hsc available in 2 years. just unrealistic imo.

----------


## BoSox

Forgive me if I sound like a broken record,  but when will the data that proves HSC is capable of giving a full head of hair, or has previous data already proven this is capable?

----------


## debris

> Forgive me if I sound like a broken record,  but when will the data that proves HSC is capable of giving a full head of hair, or has previous data already proven this is capable?


 I think ull need to wait at least for the current phase to end.

in the first trial there was 30% terminal hair increase in average (if i read the graphs correctly)

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Wow, I wish they could see if that ReCell stuff could be applied to hair loss.  If it could perform the same miracle that it did for this young child, then I'd be on the first plane to anywhere (Singapore, China, Malaysia, I don't care) just to get it done.  And the best part is that it's non-surgical.

----------


## UK_

> Wow, I wish they could see if that ReCell stuff could be applied to hair loss.  If it could perform the same miracle that it did for this young child, then I'd be on the first plane to anywhere (Singapore, China, Malaysia, I don't care) just to get it done.  And the best part is that it's non-surgical.


 It's a great website!

They take your own cells, culture them and spray them on your skin to promote rapid healing....

...sounds a lot like something we know about eh guys? lol.

The biotech revolution wasnt mere psuedo-science - it's happening.

Have any of you heard of "Alloderm"?  A friend of mine who works@ the Oxford Nanotech labs told me about it, they can use it to grow new skin, and remember, human skin is an organ.

http://www.lifecell.com/alloderm-reg...sue-matrix/95/

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I contacted the people at ReCell and they predictably said that they did not have a similar procedure that could regrow hair like the way they have regrown skin.  Yet I really think that if people really experimented with a Recell-like solution for hair loss, that we'd really be on to something.

----------


## debris

> I contacted the people at ReCell and they predictably said that they did not have a similar procedure that could regrow hair like the way they have regrown skin.  Yet I really think that if people really experimented with a Recell-like solution for hair loss, that we'd really be on to something.


 i saw a picture of burn of a baby's scalp. it didnt grow hair there.

----------


## Cory

Someone posted on hair loss talk that Histogen is starting phase 3 in march 2012 and single injection will cost about 1000$ and it will be available by 2014 according to Gail.

----------


## debris

> Someone posted on hair loss talk that Histogen is starting phase 3 in march 2012 and single injection will cost about 1000$ and it will be available by 2014 according to Gail.


 he surely meant single treatment and not single injection.

The one single injection grew 84 hair in the very best case. and much less in average. That would make it more expensive than HT as it would translate to prices from 25 to 75 usd per graft.

----------


## ALLISWELL

> he surely meant single treatment and not single injection.
> 
> The one single injection grew 84 hair in the very best case. and much less in average. That would make it more expensive than HT as it would translate to prices from 25 to 75 usd per graft.


 Wow dude thats good news...Where did you saw this? Can you please post there the link here....

----------


## ALLISWELL

> Someone posted on hair loss talk that Histogen is starting phase 3 in march 2012 and single injection will cost about 1000$ and it will be available by 2014 according to Gail.


 Wow dude thats good news...Where did you saw this? Can you please post there the link here....

----------


## CAlex

They haven't even started phase 2 yet so this talk of phase 3 is b.s.

Last info I had was histogens Phase 2 was going to start sometime before the end of July and may have already started though.

March 2012 for starting Phase 3 sounds made up by a poster imo. That means phase 2 trials, plus data collection/analyzing, plus gathering candidates for phase 3 will all be done within the next 9  months. Good luck with that magic trick.

----------


## HairTalk

> They haven't even started phase 2 yet so this talk of phase 3 is b.s.
> 
> Last info I had was histogens Phase 2 was going to start sometime before the end of July and may have already started though.
> 
> March 2012 for starting Phase 3 sounds made up by a poster imo. That means phase 2 trials, plus data collection/analyzing, plus gathering candidates for phase 3 will all be done within the next 9  months. Good luck with that magic trick.


 Does anyone have word on wheteher phase II has yet begun? I understand Histogen began recruiting subjects, last month (June, 2011), and I wonder if they've finished doing so and have started testing.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I thought the trials that they're supposed to be doing now in Singapore are combined phase 1 and 2.

----------


## CVAZBAR

So what's the status on Histogen? Are the trials rolling or what?

----------


## PaulC

I think that this along with Aderans research is really good news.  The results are presented as new hair growth per cm2.  Aderans were talking about getting 13 hairs per cm2.

Can anybody help me with a question?
What surface area would one injection 'cover' in terms of new cell and corresponding follicle growth.  Would any new growth just appear in the immediate proximity of the injection point i.e possibly 1cm2, or would the effect spread over the scalp?  If so, how far?

----------


## UK_

> So what's the status on Histogen? Are the trials rolling or what?


 I was wondering this the other day, for their first trial, they released an official notice upon their website that the trial had actually begun, this was in November 2008, and results were available 3 months later around February.

At present, no notice of a start for their Phase II trial.

I also wonder if we would have results in the same kind of timeframe as phase I.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> I was wondering this the other day, for their first trial, they released an official notice upon their website that the trial had actually begun, this was in November 2008, and results were available 3 months later around February.
> 
> At present, no notice of a start for their Phase II trial.
> 
> I also wonder if we would have results in the same kind of timeframe as phase I.


 It would be nice if Doc Ziering would post here for an update. It's been a while.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

If  Renokin didnt work and had whatever histogen supposedly uses... isn't that a bad sign

----------


## Thinning@30

> It would be nice if Doc Ziering would post here for an update. It's been a while


 We are due for an update on Histogen.  I want to know whether they have actually started the next phase of trials yet.  No news is not good news!

----------


## UK_

lol no news is good news :Cool: 

Keep the faith Thinning... 

...I hope Iron_Man is watching this space - better resign that HairSite username when these results come in mr Tin_Hat :Cool: .

----------


## Purple Glow

Just to reiterate, if this product can guarantee at least thin, diffuse hair with no bald spots, I will consider that a baldness cure, because you can fill in with Nanogen to create a full head of hair.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Yo, Doc Z! We need you back here brother. Give us that update. Hope you see this. Put us at ease haha!

----------


## Cory

I have most hopes in Histogen, even if hair won't last forever, I think they could just getter better results with each new injection.

----------


## stillinHS1994

Go histogen....f&$k I hope this stuff works...update plzzzzz

----------


## ALLISWELL

Updateeee?????????????????????????????????????????  ??????????????????????????????????????????????????  ??????????????????????????????????????????????????  ??????????????????????????????????????????????????  ??????????????????????????????????????????????????  ??????????????????????????????????????????????????  ??????????????????????????????????????????????????  ?

----------


## RichardDawkins

Hey guys an honest update is appreciated even a small glimpse :-)

----------


## UK_

Richard how do u resist urge to take Propecia?  Is your hair loss minimal?  like NW 2?

...Or like... "no going back stage".. like NW6/7?

----------


## RichardDawkins

i am not a NW2 but i believe in hair multiplication and even what Gho is doing and therefore i just dont wanna take the risk of side effects because i can look great with a normal buzzcut but being impotent, i dont know if i could live with that or with permanent sunken eyes etc.

Its no wonder that those pharma companies also invest in hair regeneration, because they know their stuff is crap.

And i think for surgical solutions its better to have the hair loss survived so that you can clearly see how to resore it without taken precautions for existing hairs. If Gho works according to plan, then there is no need to be sad or down because it just works even for NW7 guys.

Someone at the german forum asked the HSI staff about density and they said 70 grafts or more per square centimeter is possible in a second or third session. So why should i destroy my body with propecia this time, i am a bad luck person and know that i will get impotent so i dont touch it. Better safe then sorry

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> i am not a NW2 but i believe in hair multiplication and even what Gho is doing and therefore i just dont wanna take the risk of side effects because i can look great with a normal buzzcut but being impotent, i dont know if i could live with that or with permanent sunken eyes etc.
> 
> Its no wonder that those pharma companies also invest in hair regeneration, because they know their stuff is crap.
> 
> And i think for surgical solutions its better to have the hair loss survived so that you can clearly see how to resore it without taken precautions for existing hairs. If Gho works according to plan, then there is no need to be sad or down because it just works even for NW7 guys.
> 
> Someone at the german forum asked the HSI staff about density and they said 70 grafts or more per square centimeter is possible in a second or third session. So why should i destroy my body with propecia this time, i am a bad luck person and know that i will get impotent so i dont touch it. Better safe then sorry


 

+1

i totally agree


ya when gho says he can't do 70 density I think he means the same thing when he says they don't harvest grafts too closely... the results just wont be as good if in one session you put 70 little holes right next to each other and pop hairs in them..the area would just swell and mess up some of the grafts.. thats a lot of trauma for one area of skin to get and not reject grafts. its common sense (and business sense I know i know) but he may be looking towards the graft turnover... because the higher and more efficient his procedure the more customers... not just that they have to get more separate procedures


so... ya unfortunately its going to cost 50k over your lifetime but who cares seriously you guys cry for a cure and than its here and you guys are pissed its not free

----------


## Samiam

> +1
> 
> i totally agree
> 
> 
> ya when gho says he can't do 70 density I think he means the same thing when he says they don't harvest grafts too closely... the results just wont be as good if in one session you put 70 little holes right next to each other and pop hairs in them..the area would just swell and mess up some of the grafts.. thats a lot of trauma for one area of skin to get and not reject grafts. its common sense (and business sense I know i know) but he may be looking towards the graft turnover... because the higher and more efficient his procedure the more customers... not just that they have to get more separate procedures
> 
> 
> so... ya unfortunately its going to cost 50k over your lifetime but who cares seriously you guys cry for a cure and than its here and you guys are pissed its not free


 Can you rephrase what you said how would this cost around 50k

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Can you rephrase what you said how would this cost around 50k


 

because if you need 10,000 hair follicles and he only does 2000 at a time and each procedure is $10k or so... then....

----------


## Samiam

> because if you need 10,000 hair follicles and he only does 2000 at a time and each procedure is $10k or so... then....


 Ok I don't really know all these new treatments or the doctors behind them, don't really know what gho is but 10k a treatment is a good reason to bitch

----------


## Mojo Risin

Is it possible to enter a thread without having people talking about that freakin' Gho bullshit ?

----------


## Flowers

> Is it possible to enter a thread without having people talking about that freakin' Gho bullshit ?


 Well UK_ of all people the other day was raving about how Gho has cured baldness

----------


## RichardDawkins

No Mojo i think we should talk about it because right now i saw some very hardcore stunts at a german board where some "Experts" are now dontalking a person who had HST done.

To me this is proof enough, when clinics and so called "experts" go ape shit about Gho then i know this guy has something cooking.

You wanna know what the expert did say? hey said "its IMPOSSIBLE to perform hair multiplication this way Gho does, which is in situ"

But what do researchers say, FUE docs witness and other docs in general say? Correct they say its possible. And this specialist, he uses 0.9mm diameter needles for extractions, WHAT an EXPERT right.

I hate to say it guys, but a majority of hair loss sufferers is well screwed over by those experts. I can guanrantee you the next few months will be hardcore, if i were you, i wouldnt make an appointment for a traditional hair transplant, trust me

----------


## VictimOfDHT

I hope u're right.

----------


## RichardDawkins

When advertised forums jump on every Gho Thread (Admins, Owner of forum, Moderators and paying clinics) what does this say to you?

No what does this tell you.

it definitely IS NOT to protect people because if those forums would protect people, they wouldnt allow clinics to advertise FUT, scalp pigmentation and scalp reduction.

----------


## Kiwi

To be honest nobody know how much it'll cost. If it's 10K per 2K session then of course you're looking at 50K but who says you'll need 10k grafts, who says there won't be bulk discounts, and who says other docs won't figure it out....*

Richard, what's that about sunken eyes?!?

----------


## Mojo Risin

I don't think we'll have any new informations until November.

China Medical Biotech Forum
November 7-9, 2011
Beijing, China
Dr. Gail K. Naughton to present "Human Embryonic-like Proteins Stimulate New Hair Growth in Humans while Inducing Apoptosis in Cancer"

And even there ... her speech is barely going to last 30 minutes if you look here : http://www.medbioforum.org/cmbf2011/...m_track6.asp#6

----------


## UK_

> Well UK_ of all people the other day was raving about how Gho has cured baldness


 Haha :Big Grin: 

... Let's wait and see - even Rassman wants to see the results before coming to any [accurate] conclusion... read the post on "professional jealousy" on the balding blog.

http://www.baldingblog.com/2011/07/2...hos-technique/

I think Richard is right, I am also seeing a lot of doctors downplaying the Gho technique - I dont know whether it is jealousy - I mean Gho has a waiting list [now] up until late 2012.

The thing is Rassman contends that Gho is *just doing* a normal HST procedure, but how can he _honestly know for sure?_ I mean really, think about it.  Why didnt Rassman apply these "accusations" when Gho was releasing medical articles about the efficacy of his procedure?  Why wait unti HST exploded in consumer demand?

____________

Has anyone tried messaging Dr Ziering through facebook?

Or emailing his clinic directly?

----------


## Mojo Risin

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1824

Listen to the second interview.
You'll need multiple injections for a full head of hair ... and you'll need to come back every 3-6 months.

Well, unless you're some hollywood superstar, that's going to be absolutly impossible to afford.

I'm kinda losing faith with Histogen, I see this as some kind of ''botox for hair''. Just like botox, you need to come back regularly to a clinic to get a fix ... it's going to be the exact same shit.

----------


## UK_

> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1824
> 
> Listen to the second interview.
> You'll need multiple injections for a full head of hair ... and you'll need to come back every 3-6 months.
> 
> Well, unless you're some hollywood superstar, that's going to be absolutly impossible to afford.
> 
> I'm kinda losing faith with Histogen, I see this as some kind of ''botox for hair''. Just like botox, you need to come back regularly to a clinic to get a fix ... it's going to be the exact same shit.


 Your _assertion_ rests upon a source which predates the findings that _prove_ a single injection can last up *and beyond*  the two year period.

I point you to their actual updated findings in which new hair growth has been seen and maintained up and beyond the 24 month mark, this was achieved with negligible amounts of HSC as the initial trial was more a determinant of safety as opposed to aesthetic efficacy. 

Regardless of the cost, a better treatment is a better treatment, _beggars can't be choosey_.

I obviously can't comment on cost Mojo, but what I can say is that Histogen's focus is on _mass marketing_ this product, they have previously made statements about making this product available to the _wider public_, and a lot of their investments have gone into setting up a viable manufacturing system to do so.  I highly doubt this translates to a treatment that will only be available to the select _elites of society_.  Their preious statements that allude to; _"only a small percentage of the wider public seeking current FDA approved treatments"_ suggests to me the contrary to your opinion, they are clearly intending to target the wider public.  Also, if this is actually primarily targeted for _the elites_, why would Dr Ziering be on here talking to us _'mere mortals'_?

----------


## UK_

We should also add the following to the list of upcoming treatments:

http://www.skincareblog.net/2011/03/...al-stem-cells/

So what's that now?... 7 in total?... what did we have throughout the 80's...90's?... **** all thats what.

Be grateful.

----------


## UK_

Does anybody on here feel after reading the above link they could set up their own lab and start regenerating hair follicles?

OH THATS RIGHT - We need professionals... sorry Iron_Man, I did try.

God knows why there's no research coming out of the UK - too busy spending millions developing STD apps for Iphones to support our burgeoning prostitution industry.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Wow, I never heard of Mibelle Biochemistry before; that's really cool.  I like Histogen's chances, as well as Replicel.  I'm not too confident in Aderans, and plus now that they're run by Bosley, that's a negative.  Bosley is about one of the least ethical companies around.  You listed 7 companies that developing new treatments for hair loss.  I know about Histogen, now Mibelle, Replicel, Follica, Aderans.  What are the other 2?

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

And BTW, of course some one like Rassman is gonna downplay these new techniques.  While he's still offering archaic hair transplants and head tattooing, these other doctors are going to be offering WAY more effective techniques that don't leave scars all over your head.  I mean, how many people even want some scarring hair transplant or worse yet head tattooing in the first place?

----------


## UK_

@DepressedBHL - Well we have the following (if I have missed any please inform me):

*1) Aderans

2) Histogen

3) Follica

4) Replicel

5) Berlin Tech University

6) MiBelle Biochem labs

7) China Medical University (Nitric Oxide solution)

8) Acell/Plucking + Gho's HST (entire surgical paradigm, which offers probably the best chances of all)

9) St Vincent's Hospital in Melbourne and Melbourne University (Rod Sinclair)

10) Professor Mayumi Ito and his team developing wnt signalling for BOTH hair loss and grey hair*

Note, all of the above are professionals, professionals we could all do without (according to Iron_Man).

The thing is with Rassman, he himself has not OUTRIGHT said Gho is wrong - he [like all of us] wants to see the results - I think deep down he knows Gho has created that new era in transplant techniques that is SO OVERDUE right now!

And is it just me?  Because I dont ever recall such a number of companies working on treatments during the 80's and 90's!  Back then all I remember were horrible plug transplants and minoxidil, people were still waiting for FDA clearance for propecia - now we're waiting for FDA clearance for gene therapy!

I know hair loss has turned us all into a bunch of downers but we have to be positive!

----------


## Kiwi

I'm with you UK_ !!

----------


## RichardDawkins

UK is right unfortunately. In the 90s there was ....... NOTHING not even one thing. I am not confident with all of the named ones but its good to have em.

Regarding Gho, the more and more i study his stuff i think he is right but overcautios when setting densities etc.

Because lets be honest here for one minute.
"Who would be so insane to advertise hair multiplication, treating celebrities etc and publish papers only to lie"

And the other question is a really really simple one

"Why are those clinics or docs who say ITS IMPOSSIBLE not sueing Gho and his clinic? I mean if they are so confident why not sue him"

I think that 2011 is the turning point where everyone has to settle the record for himself straight.

1) the forums have to look into if its good to downtalk Gho only for advertising reasons

2) we have to finally think about hair loss and our solutions in a mature way beyond illusions and propecia

3) clinics have to choose which way they wanna go


Also i have the strange feeling, that only a handful of docs know that HST is working and thats why they went to experiment with Acell etc, because if you understand that hair follicles regenerate themselves when damaged, then you have one essential part of the puzzle figured out

----------


## Mojo Risin

UK you forgot about Astressin-B : http://www.hairloss-research.com/human-trials/

They're going to go forward with human trials ..

----------


## mlao

If all this is true and I really want it to be so. Dr. Gho needs to present his findings in a peer reviewed forum that is judged objectively by other doctors.
I am sure any of the well respected doctors; 
(Hasson & wong, Drs. Ron and Paul Shapiro, Dr. Cooley, Dr. Bernstein) 
would be unbiased in there judgement. All you have to do is research them and you realize they are always looking for ways to improve their results. If Dr. Ghos technique is superior it needs to be put in the hands of doctors who can use it on a daily basis and refine it. lets face it the Shapiro's and Hasson and Wong did not invent FUT but they refined it!

----------


## UK_

> UK you forgot about Astressin-B : http://www.hairloss-research.com/human-trials/
> 
> They're going to go forward with human trials ..


 So thats 11... and lets not forget *Latisse* they're in phase 1 for MPB - who knows what a stronger solution may bring?

Btw Mojo - that's a great website.

Looks like they'll be posting their project schedule today!  So we can atleast view a viable timeline.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I totally hear you, UK. We do have to be positive.  That's really what's keeping me going right now: that companies like Histogen and Mibelle are developing non-invasive and non-surgical solutions to hair loss. I wasn't aware of some of those companies so thanks for filling me in.  I just get so frustrated when all we have out there for 'solutions' are such garbage like minoxidil, finasteride, and hair transplants.  If something better was offered, then I believe that SOOOOO many people (including myself) would literally jump at the chance to regrow their hair.  I want to grow my hair back in the worst way but the last thing that I want is permanent head scarring.  But it's good news that all of these companies are working to develop much more effective solutions for hair loss.  And it's great that many of these companies are not based in the U.S., so they don't need to jump through all of the b.s. FDA hurdles.  After all, I think most people would literally jump at the chance for a non-invasive hair regrowth procedure; I mean, no one wants scars on their head for the rest of their life.  BTW, when I mention the FDA, I believe that they are nothing more than a puppet of the pharmaceutical industry.  Unfortunately, they're not out for the public's best interest, they're only out for their personal gain.

----------


## CVAZBAR

With all the positive talk, I'm going to sleep good tonight ha. imagine all these treatments fail? Jk, **** that! It better not happen. 

If I'm not mistaken, I think Latisse is in phase 2.

----------


## Cory

I've read before that you will need Histogen injections every 3-6 months, but I think that will be just first year, I think it all depends what norwood are you, I guess they can't give all shots at once.

What is Mibelle actually doing, how far are they?

----------


## stillinHS1994

If all these treatments fail then I will officially give up hope on humanity and go live in a cave somewhere....

----------


## RichardDawkins

its unlikely that all will fail because every one of them targets another thing. And we all know hair regeneration can happen. So lets see who will win this race

----------


## gmonasco

> And the other question is a really really simple one
> 
> "Why are those clinics or docs who say ITS IMPOSSIBLE not sueing Gho and his clinic? I mean if they are so confident why not sue him"


 And the answer is also a simple one: They have no grounds for suing him, because they haven't personally been damaged by his false claims.

----------


## RichardDawkins

False Claims? Science speak other way just look at this video

http://www.ascb.org/ibioseminars/inc...me=fuchs&num=2

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

This Elaine Fuchs lady has made some so-called discoveries with regards to hair growth, but she's a prime example of the type of scientist that I CANNOT STAND.  She'll do every kind of test on mice, but will never do a damn thing to benefit humans.  We've got way too many scientists like this.  Ever since I started losing my hair, I've researched so many potential hair regrowth methods.  Any I've come across a laundry list of scientists (Elaine Fuchs is a prime example) who do all of these tests on mice yet never do anything to apply these tests to help humans.  Thank goodness we have people like Craig Ziering who are actually working to develop hair loss solutions to benefit HUMANS and not just test on mice.  But unfortunately people who are actually working to develop hair loss solutions for humans (Cotsarelis, Dr. Ziering, etc.) are the exceptions.  Most of these so-called scientists are just content testing on mice for their entire lives.

----------


## Jundam

> This Elaine Fuchs lady has made some so-called discoveries with regards to hair growth, but she's a prime example of the type of scientist that I CANNOT STAND.  She'll do every kind of test on mice, but will never do a damn thing to benefit humans.  We've got way too many scientists like this.  Ever since I started losing my hair, I've researched so many potential hair regrowth methods.  Any I've come across a laundry list of scientists (Elaine Fuchs is a prime example) who do all of these tests on mice yet never do anything to apply these tests to help humans.  Thank goodness we have people like Craig Ziering who are actually working to develop hair loss solutions to benefit HUMANS and not just test on mice.  But unfortunately people who are actually working to develop hair loss solutions for humans (Cotsarelis, Dr. Ziering, etc.) are the exceptions.  Most of these so-called scientists are just content testing on mice for their entire lives.


 How hard can it be to comprehend the simple logic that mice are considered expendable while humans are not.

All medical experiments made on mice are made in order to develop a greater understanding of the practical applications various scientific theories might have. If you used humans in the same way we use mice today you'd end up with something very similar to the methods of Josef Mengele.

----------


## stillinHS1994

I believe he is expressing his anger that the majority of scientists,like elaine fuchs, who discover stuff that could potentially benefit humans ONLY do tests on mice. They never do clinical trials in humans to demonstrate the possibility of a treatment. I don't think depressedbyhairloss is saying he wants to pull a Nazi Germany and skip tests on mice to go straight to humans with every expirement....depressedbyhairloss isn't saying to use humans the same way we use lab mice...or at least I don't think he is ... Lol...some ppl will go to any extent to cure their Mpb I guess lol  :Smile:

----------


## Jundam

> I believe he is expressing his anger that the majority of scientists,like elaine fuchs, who discover stuff that could potentially benefit humans ONLY do tests on mice. They never do clinical trials in humans to demonstrate the possibility of a treatment. I don't think depressedbyhairloss is saying he wants to pull a Nazi Germany and skip tests on mice to go straight to humans with every expirement....depressedbyhairloss isn't saying to use humans the same way we use lab mice...or at least I don't think he is ...he might be a neo-Nazi but I highly doubt it lol


 But that's the thing. They are not stuffing mice full with potential cures to see if they become more or less cute. They are ramming them full with stuff that could do anything from absolutely nothing to making them bleed out the eyes or go completely batshit insane. The mice to them are the same as "lesser humans" were to Mengele; They are expendable. That's why I made the comparison.

If their experiments lead to anything that could help humans you will see them start clinical trials on humans. Until then it's a hit or miss game for mice.

----------


## stillinHS1994

I believe he is expressing his anger that the majority of scientists,like elaine fuchs, who discover stuff that could potentially benefit humans ONLY do tests on mice. They never do clinical trials in humans to demonstrate the possibility of a treatment. I don't think depressedbyhairloss is saying he wants to pull a Nazi Germany and skip tests on mice to go straight to humans with every expirement...and he definitely isn't saying to use humans the same way we use lab mice...but I dunno...some ppl will go to any.extent to cure their Mpb I guess  :Smile:

----------


## stillinHS1994

> But that's the thing. They are not stuffing mice full with potential cures to see if they become more or less cute. They are ramming them full with stuff that could do anything from absolutely nothing to making them bleed out the eyes or go completely batshit insane. The mice to them are the same as "lesser humans" were to Mengele; They are expendable. That's why I made the comparison.
> 
> If their experiments lead to anything that could help humans you will see them start clinical trials on humans. Until then it's a hit or miss game for mice.


 I would have to agree with you on that yes but the thing is this Elaine fuchs lady has found something with mice that could potentially benefit humans with alopecia...but she refuses to perform clinical trials....just mice...and more mice

----------


## stillinHS1994

Lol srry bout the double....I'm on a droid

----------


## Jundam

> I would have to agree with you on that yes but the thing is this Elaine fuchs lady has found something with mice that could potentially benefit humans with alopecia...but she refuses to perform clinical trials....just mice...and more mice


 I honestly don't know enough about her to pass judgement either way but some researchers simply work only to further the base of knowledge. It is quite possible she is one of those scientists who are simply focused on expanding that base and thus has no interest in creating commercial products based on the research she conducts. But scientists who focus their research solely on obtaining a greater understanding of something frequently write papers and give speeches at large conventions in order to make their knowledge available to the scientific community. Basically what I'm saying is she's not holding anything back from us, she's most likely just leaving the commercial aspect of science to others because she's not in it for the money.

The reason I entered this thread was just to clarify that mice are being used while the outcome of the scientific theories are uncertain. They are used because they are considered expendable. Not because scientists love to take their sweet time getting somewhere. In fact most scientists are itching to see what the future brings and if they will bring something to it themselves.

----------


## jt3546

> The hair would likely take on its original darker color


 That would really be great! Getting rid of the gray and also increasing the black[or whatever  colour your hair is]....!!!!! I'm saving up dough!

----------


## UK_

> And the answer is also a simple one: They have no grounds for suing him, because they haven't personally been damaged by his false claims.


 What, some guy lying about having mastered hair multiplication? - would Gho not be liable if some of his competitors had to close their doors based upon the impact of his monstrous global lie?

Tin hats aside, supply governs demand, and soon enough we will know the truth about Gho, consumers paying &#163;10,000 on the promise of HM would sue his balls off if they found out he was just selling regular FUE's.

Personal opinion, I doubt he's _lying_, time shall reveal all.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Holy crap, comparing increased medical options for hair loss to the shit that Josef Mengele did is just totally insane!!  That comparison is just absolutely retarded to put it bluntly.  If scientists tested more of their findings on humans, it would all be voluntary and many people would literally jump at the chance to try something that could significantly better their lives.  
Of course mice are being tested on because of their expendability and because there are so many of them and they are so easy to obtain.  And of course they should always be tested on first, before human testing begins.  But how much are you helping people and society if you just experiment on mice, and mice only?  You say that they are working to "obtain a greater understanding or knowledge base", yet this has been done for 25 years by countless so-called researchers and scientists with not even an attempt towards human application.  Countless experiments on mice have been done that state that chemicals like WNT, Noggin, and BMP inhibitors could lead to increased hair growth yet no one is taking it beyond the mouse stage.  How can we possibly know if these chemicals work on humans if they are not tried on humans in the first place?    If one scientist proves that WNT proteins can lead to hair regrowth, there is no need for countless other scientists to conduct experiments on mice to prove the same thing over and over again and never try them on humans.  And a lot of these scientists then say that their discoveries could lead to clinical trials yet none are ever performed.  They say that their studies "could lead to clinical trials" because that entices newspapers and magazines to pay money for the rights to report on their experiments.  If they stated "we only test on mice and we have absolutely no desire to develop anything to benefit humans", then no publication would give a shit.  So in that respect, these scientists do very much care about making money.  These discoveries that they publicize lead to speaking engagements and public accolades, all of which generate more money for their labs and themselves.  
The fact that there are literally hundreds of scientists who work to "further their base of knowledge" and test on only mice yet only a handful that even attempt to test their discoveries on humans is very suspicious.  That "expanding their knowledge base" is a very weak arguments.  Hair loss has supposedly been researched to death for literally 25 years, with tons of potential remedies that have been proposed.  Yet none of these remedies were ever tested on humans, which is downright glaringly suspicious.  The only things that we have are 2 drugs that weren't even developed to treat hair loss in the first stage.  With all of the so-called discoveries made when it comes to hair loss, it is just inexcusable that we don't have better options, other than the garbage that is out today.

----------


## gmonasco

> What, some guy lying about having mastered hair multiplication? - would Gho not be liable if some of his competitors had to close their doors based upon the impact of his monstrous global lie?


 He might be, but that hasn't happened, so the issue is moot.  

In general, lying isn't actionable unless it constitutes libel or fraud.  In the latter case, Gho's customers are the ones who would have standing to sue.

----------


## UK_

> He might be, but that hasn't happened, so the issue is moot.  
> 
> In general, lying isn't actionable unless it constitutes libel or fraud.  In the latter case, Gho's customers are the ones who would have standing to sue.


 Well not many companies sue on the basis of moral high ground these days lol.

----------


## Jundam

> Holy crap, comparing increased medical options for hair loss to the shit that Josef Mengele did is just totally insane!!  That comparison is just absolutely retarded to put it bluntly.  If scientists tested more of their findings on humans, it would all be voluntary and many people would literally jump at the chance to try something that could significantly better their lives.  
> Of course mice are being tested on because of their expendability and because there are so many of them and they are so easy to obtain.  And of course they should always be tested on first, before human testing begins.  But how much are you helping people and society if you just experiment on mice, and mice only?  You say that they are working to "obtain a greater understanding or knowledge base", yet this has been done for 25 years by countless so-called researchers and scientists with not even an attempt towards human application.  Countless experiments on mice have been done that state that chemicals like WNT, Noggin, and BMP inhibitors could lead to increased hair growth yet no one is taking it beyond the mouse stage.  How can we possibly know if these chemicals work on humans if they are not tried on humans in the first place?    If one scientist proves that WNT proteins can lead to hair regrowth, there is no need for countless other scientists to conduct experiments on mice to prove the same thing over and over again and never try them on humans.  And a lot of these scientists then say that their discoveries could lead to clinical trials yet none are ever performed.  They say that their studies "could lead to clinical trials" because that entices newspapers and magazines to pay money for the rights to report on their experiments.  If they stated "we only test on mice and we have absolutely no desire to develop anything to benefit humans", then no publication would give a shit.  So in that respect, these scientists do very much care about making money.  These discoveries that they publicize lead to speaking engagements and public accolades, all of which generate more money for their labs and themselves.  
> The fact that there are literally hundreds of scientists who work to "further their base of knowledge" and test on only mice yet only a handful that even attempt to test their discoveries on humans is very suspicious.  That "expanding their knowledge base" is a very weak arguments.  Hair loss has supposedly been researched to death for literally 25 years, with tons of potential remedies that have been proposed.  Yet none of these remedies were ever tested on humans, which is downright glaringly suspicious.  The only things that we have are 2 drugs that weren't even developed to treat hair loss in the first stage.  With all of the so-called discoveries made when it comes to hair loss, it is just inexcusable that we don't have better options, other than the garbage that is out today.


 
You act as if there's a superior breed of humans who have all the answers at their fingertips but are too busy fiddling with mice. There's not. They're using mice as tools to further their base of knowledge which is not a ****ing argument, it's a ****ing fact. Science isn't math, there's not a set amount of numbers in the game. Every year thousands of completely new variables are discovered and the vast majority of them are discovered through experiments. One day the knowledge gained from those experiments might be found to be applicable to human problems. And if they are you can rest assured that companies will be jumping the opportunity to be the first to market it. Propecia and Rogaine may sell, but if there was a better treatment that gave us a full head of hair back without any devastating side effects it would probably be the most profitable treatment in the world. Everybody who sees a shot at being the one that puts it on the market will take it.

To suggest humans should be used at an earlier stage than they are is a sign of either ignorance or apathy. If laws allowed humans to be used as labrats do you think only willing, well-to-do people would be used? Because that's just not going to be the case. Big pharmaceuticals would target the poor and the homeless, any and all who need a little money would be asked to pull up one sleeve or swallow a pill and many of them would do it without knowing what the outcome would be. That is why I compare it to Mengele's experiments. It might not be as vile but it is still inhumane to allow it.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

No one is acting like some of these scientists are a 'superior breed' at all.  Yet they are given so many tools which should be at their disposal to find more cures and treatments for diseases and other maladies, yet so many of them are just content on testing on mice for their entire careers.  Nobody is (or should) be granting them money for many years (in some cases, more than 20 years) to "broaden their knowledge base" and not do anything effective for humans.  Eventually you've got to develop something meaningful or develop a solution; not just keep gaining insight and knowledge by experimenting on mice.  No one is arguing that mice are effective tool to be tested on to expand the knowledge base, or whatever.  But eventually, after something is proven to work on mice countless times, then it's got to be attempted to be brought to human application.  I mean, no one knows if a potential treatment is going to work on humans unless it's tested on humans. And right now, there are so many potentially effective treatments and they're not even being attempted to be brought to a level to benefit humans.  Hell, if in other walks of life and in other jobs, a worker never attempted to solve a problem, but kept gaining 'insight', 'clues', and 'knowledge' in how to solve the problem (but never attempted to solve it), then they'd be out on their ass.  The same should apply here.  
I'd like to buy your argument that one day when there is a potential cure for hair loss, then companies will be jumping all over it.  But I just don't buy it at all.  There are plenty of potential cures (WNT, Noggin, BMP inhibitors, hedgehog agonists, etc.), yet I don't see any company jumping all over anything.  I hear the argument all the time that since there would be so much money to be made from a hair loss treatment, that companies jump at the chance to release it.  Yet there are only a handful of companies that are even working towards releasing a meaningful hair loss product!!  If these companies were interested in releasing an effective hair loss treatment, then there would be more than only a handful of companies working to achieve the goal.  
And no one is suggesting that humans should be used in earlier stages, so save those stupid 'apathy' and 'ignorance' comments.  I even explicitly stated that mice should be used initially.  My beef is that all of these promising treatments for hair loss are NEVER tested on humans, despite being tested on mice time and time again.  Human beings would not be targeted as labrats at all, that's just a ridiculous comment; almost as ridiculous as the pharmaceutical companies targeting the homeless for clinical trials.  Trials are ALWAYS VOLUNTARY and no one is being forced into anything.  And people whose lives are adversely affected by hair loss would literally jump at the chance to regrow their hair.  Again, comparing trying new hair loss treatments on voluntary participants to the atrocities that Mengele committed is just an insane comment.

----------


## Jundam

> No one is acting like some of these scientists are a 'superior breed' at all.  Yet they are given so many tools which should be at their disposal to find more cures and treatments for diseases and other maladies, yet so many of them are just content on testing on mice for their entire careers.  Nobody is (or should) be granting them money for many years (in some cases, more than 20 years) to "broaden their knowledge base" and not do anything effective for humans.  Eventually you've got to develop something meaningful or develop a solution; not just keep gaining insight and knowledge by experimenting on mice.  No one is arguing that mice are effective tool to be tested on to expand the knowledge base, or whatever.  But eventually, after something is proven to work on mice countless times, then it's got to be attempted to be brought to human application.  I mean, no one knows if a potential treatment is going to work on humans unless it's tested on humans. And right now, there are so many potentially effective treatments and they're not even being attempted to be brought to a level to benefit humans.  Hell, if in other walks of life and in other jobs, a worker never attempted to solve a problem, but kept gaining 'insight', 'clues', and 'knowledge' in how to solve the problem (but never attempted to solve it), then they'd be out on their ass.  The same should apply here.  
> I'd like to buy your argument that one day when there is a potential cure for hair loss, then companies will be jumping all over it.  But I just don't buy it at all.  There are plenty of potential cures (WNT, Noggin, BMP inhibitors, hedgehog agonists, etc.), yet I don't see any company jumping all over anything.  I hear the argument all the time that since there would be so much money to be made from a hair loss treatment, that companies jump at the chance to release it.  Yet there are only a handful of companies that are even working towards releasing a meaningful hair loss product!!  If these companies were interested in releasing an effective hair loss treatment, then there would be more than only a handful of companies working to achieve the goal.  
> And no one is suggesting that humans should be used in earlier stages, so save those stupid 'apathy' and 'ignorance' comments.  I even explicitly stated that mice should be used initially.  My beef is that all of these promising treatments for hair loss are NEVER tested on humans, despite being tested on mice time and time again.  Human beings would not be targeted as labrats at all, that's just a ridiculous comment; almost as ridiculous as the pharmaceutical companies targeting the homeless for clinical trials.  Trials are ALWAYS VOLUNTARY and no one is being forced into anything.  And people whose lives are adversely affected by hair loss would literally jump at the chance to regrow their hair.  Again, comparing trying new hair loss treatments on voluntary participants to the atrocities that Mengele committed is just an insane comment.


 
You don't seem to comprehend anything I write and I can't stand to go through more badly written blocks of text so I'll just get out right here.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Badly written blocks of texts?  Whatever.  But let's get back to what this thread is really all about**: Histogen's upcoming treatment for hair loss.  I really give Drs. Naughton and Ziering a ton of credit for attempting to bring such a potentially effective and minimally invasive treatment to fruition.

----------


## CVAZBAR

One last call for Doc Z! What's going on with Histogen??????????? Where you at Doc????

----------


## HairTalk

Dr. Ziering, any word on the status of Histogen's trial on H.S.C.? We'd appreciate an update.

Thank you much.

----------


## mlao

> Dr. Ziering, any word on the status of Histogen's trial on H.S.C.? We'd appreciate an update.
> 
> Thank you much.


 if they did in fact start them in June. I don't think they would have much to report. 
It would take at least 3 to 6 months to see any kind of result.

Plus it looks like Dr. Zering is concentrating on his own practice.
http://www.zieringmedical.com/?gclid...FZV25QodYgm2Uw

Hope this helps.

----------


## HairTalk

> if they did in fact start them in June. I don't think they would have much to report. 
> It would take at least 3 to 6 months to see any kind of result.
> 
> Plus it looks like Dr. Zering is concentrating on his own practice.
> http://www.zieringmedical.com/?gclid...FZV25QodYgm2Uw
> 
> Hope this helps.


 I understand. I'm simply interested to know whether the trial has, indeed, begun (i.e., whether all subjects have been recruited and testing has commenced).

----------


## tonypizza

You would think they'd like to give good news to retain confidence in the market who are thinking of having a hair transplant instead of waiting for an injectable.

I won't lock in my opinion on efficacy until I see pictures after theraputic doses are given, but based on the results that have been released thus far all the market can expect is a Rogaine-like result.  I've seen no evidence of new and thick hair growth from this product thus far.  

Aderans is talking about 14 hairs per square centimetre to prove efficacy to the FDA.  If that's all we can hope for from this product we'll all be disappointed.

----------


## mlao

> Dr. Ziering, any word on the status of Histogen's trial on H.S.C.? We'd appreciate an update.
> 
> Thank you much.


 


> You would think they'd like to give good news to retain confidence in the market who are thinking of having a hair transplant instead of waiting for an injectable.
> 
> I won't lock in my opinion on efficacy until I see pictures after theraputic doses are given, but based on the results that have been released thus far all the market can expect is a Rogaine-like result.  I've seen no evidence of new and thick hair growth from this product thus far.  
> 
> Aderans is talking about 14 hairs per square centimetre to prove efficacy to the FDA.  If that's all we can hope for from this product we'll all be disappointed.


 Well Dr. Zering _is_ a transplant surgeon and judging from his website that is his main expertise. 
As for efficacy I agree there has not been a great deal of photographic evidence that suggests HSC produces a big cosmetic improvement.
To add to that Histogen is a tiny company compared to Pfizer or Merck. I can't imagine an investment of 5 to 10 million going that far.
That said even though Aderan's is slow and silent most of the time. They probably have a lot more cash than Histogen and have established a large network of clinical trials so I will remain hopeful.
What I would really like to see from Histogen is more regular updates from Dr. Gail Norton.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Damn, I hope he's not so focused on this new office in Chicago, that the development of the HSC complex is neglected.  What really bugs me is when all these doctors offer nothing but hair transplants, despite the fact that I believe most people do not even want to get a hair transplant in the first place.

----------


## Mojo Risin

I'm 22 years and almost Norwood 4 so a hair transplant is not the solution for me at all. Sometimes I wonder if these guys are just greedy crooks who doesn't care about anything but their wallet.

Anyway, this summer is kinda depressing for hair loss sufferer ... we have absolutly nothing positive to hold on to.

----------


## Flowers

> I'm 22 years and almost Norwood 4 so a hair transplant is not the solution for me at all.


 Why do you say that? How's the rest of your hair (donor)?

----------


## Mojo Risin

Lol dude, it's written in the sky that I'll be Norwood 7 before I'm 25 years old so getting a hair transplant would be a suicidal move. I don't even want to look into it, I know it's not for me. It's like if Patrick Stewart had a transplant.

And at 22 years old, I barely have enough money to go to college and live by myself so I won't invest 5000$ in a transplant that is probably going to look like shit anyway. I'd rather wait for Replicel, Histogen, Aderans, Astressin-B, Follica, Nitric Oxyde Gel and all that stuff ... never knows ... so far, I'm shaving my head, it's a ''full'' head of hair or nothing so ...

----------


## Flowers

Well you could stop at NW5 or even if you get to 6 you're not doomed. 7 is pretty rare and means it drops lower to your ears. They say around 4500 grafts can restore a NW5/6 to a good look if you have realistic goals. Don't be so down especially now with this new Gho stuff possibly working.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

So, when are we going to know FOR SURE if Gho's method works or not ??

----------


## Jundam

> Damn, I hope he's not so focused on this new office in Chicago, that the development of the HSC complex is neglected.  What really bugs me is when all these doctors offer nothing but hair transplants, despite the fact that I believe most people do not even want to get a hair transplant in the first place.


 I'm pretty sure Dr. Ziering isn't a part of the actual development process of HSC until it starts testing in the US. As I understood it he's their guy in America and not an actual contributor to the research. 
I don't think his inactivity should be regarded as anything negative. Most likely he just gets regular updates for now and he probably won't bother showing up here until he actually has something exciting to tell us. Might not be until results from phase II comes in and that's a while away.

----------


## stillinHS1994

I would also like an update like the majority of the ppl here,but they have only been doing this trial for like a month so I doubt they see results ....unless this shit is really REALLY working......that would be cool...and did someone say aderans is only getting 14 hairs a square cm? Damn

----------


## Kiwi

Are you guys crazy?!?!?!?

14 hairs per square cm is better the NO hairs per square cm

----------


## Flowers

> Are you guys crazy?!?!?!?
> 
> 14 hairs per square cm is better the NO hairs per square cm


 In terms of scientific progress yes, but you would shave that if you had it

----------


## Kiwi

> In terms of scientific progress yes, but you would shave that if you had it


 I don't shave my head and I doubt that in all areas of my head do I have 14 hairs per square cm left. I'm guessing that your hairloss hasn't progressed to that far yet  :Wink: 

Of course the other thing you're forgetting is that 14 additional hairs per square cm means you will get crap loads more density when getting a hair transplant.

Obviously (obviously) it'd be nice if the technology was there that meant we didnt have to get a Hair Transplant... but unfortunately technology is not. yet.

----------


## Jundam

You really don't need to read that much into numbers yet. The results they presented were from safety trials with 12 weeks time from injection till result. I'm positive the results will be greatly improved by the time it reaches the market. 
It would seem to me that if it can regrow hair from inactive follicles it can regrow hair from all inactive follicles. Question is just what dosage and amount of injections are required to reach a cosmetically viable result. Hopefully whatever conclusion they arrive at ends up in a good price range without too many revisits for maintenance needed(preferably none at all of course).

----------


## Jundam

Ignore the post above I thought we were talking about Histogen...

Although I will add that the 13 hairs per square centimeter was set as a standard for Aderans phase II proof-of-concept clinical trials. Basically results of 13 hairs per square centimeter is considered enough to prove that their theory works in practice. I think they're hoping to reach considerably better results than that for their end-product.

----------


## stillinHS1994

> Ignore the post above I thought we were talking about Histogen...
> 
> Although I will add that the 13 hairs per square centimeter was set as a standard for Aderans phase II proof-of-concept clinical trials. Basically results of 13 hairs per square centimeter is considered enough to prove that their theory works in practice. I think they're hoping to reach considerably better results than that for their end-product.


 God, I hope so

----------


## Jundam

> God, I hope so


 13 hairs per square centimeter would make their product essentially worthless on the market. In the MPB market the better coverage you can attain the more customers you will get. If you can get full coverage in bald areas you have access to everybody from the teenager freaking out about his hairline receding to the 50 year old slick bald Norwood 7 who'd pay absurd amounts of money to feel young once again. So I don't think you have to worry about them setting their goals too low. Just hope they're on the right track.

----------


## Mojo Risin

Eh ... new update from Histogen website. 

Tissue Engineering and Regenerative Medicine International Society (TERMIS)
Asia Pacific Annual Meeting
August 3-5, 2011
Singapore
Dr. Gail Naughton to present "Human Tissue Engineered Soluble ECM Stimulates Hair growth While Inhibiting Cancer Cells"

That's ... today.

----------


## Kiwi

> 13 hairs per square centimeter would make their product essentially worthless on the market. In the MPB market the better coverage you can attain the more customers you will get. If you can get full coverage in bald areas you have access to everybody from the teenager freaking out about his hairline receding to the 50 year old slick bald Norwood 7 who'd pay absurd amounts of money to feel young once again. So I don't think you have to worry about them setting their goals too low. Just hope they're on the right track.


 You're wrong.

I would happily pay for 14 hairs per square cm, and from a business point of view it makes much more sense to launch something then nothing. If they refine it before launch even better.

----------


## Kiwi

> Eh ... new update from Histogen website. 
> 
> Tissue Engineering and Regenerative Medicine International Society (TERMIS)
> Asia Pacific Annual Meeting
> August 3-5, 2011
> Singapore
> Dr. Gail Naughton to present "Human Tissue Engineered Soluble ECM Stimulates Hair growth While Inhibiting Cancer Cells"
> 
> That's ... today.


 What's the problem? The more successes that business has the more chance of a cure we get. If people moan like little bitches about only 14 hairs per square cm it might put investors off. Gee thanks guys.

If this Cancer stuff takes off and they make millions you cab guarantee that one product will fund the continued research of the other. These people are not stupid.

So I'm congratulating Gail for getting up and promoting her products. Right here right now.

----------


## Jundam

> You're wrong.
> 
> I would happily pay for 14 hairs per square cm, and from a business point of view it makes much more sense to launch something then nothing. If they refine it before launch even better.


 Then you'd be one of the few. The other part was just asinine.

----------


## Kiwi

If I were a betting man, I'd say you're wrong again. Before FUT I bet people were saying that the results are not worth it, only a few people will want it...

... But they too were wrong because we're both members of a club here where thousands of people pay to have their hair moved from the back of their head, to the front of their head.

So I disagree with you and I guarantee people will buy this even if it is 14 hairs per square cm. And it won't be just a few people either. As we know this is a billion dollar industry. It won't be just a few.

----------


## Jundam

> If I were a betting man, I'd say you're wrong again. Before FUT I bet people were saying that the results are not worth it, only a few people will want it...
> 
> ... But they too were wrong because we're both members of a club here where thousands of people pay to have their hair moved from the back of their head, to the front of their head.
> 
> So I disagree with you and I guarantee people will buy this even if it is 14 hairs per square cm. And it won't be just a few people either. As we know this is a billion dollar industry. It won't be just a few.


 Don't know why it's being argued as if 14 hairs per square centimeter is the actual result and not just a standard they use to measure success in phase II trials as I pointed out earlier.

As far as the rest goes let's just say I think you're wrong on all of it. Can't be bothered to argue with another person about something they know absolutely nothing about.

----------


## Kiwi

> Don't know why it's being argued as if 14 hairs per square centimeter is the actual result and not just a standard they use to measure success in phase II trials as I pointed out earlier.
> 
> As far as the rest goes let's just say I think you're wrong on all of it. Can't be bothered to argue with another person about something they know absolutely nothing about.


 I know about business and hairloss. Intimately. 

From a business POV you always launch with something rather then nothing, it guarantees you cash flow which is what companies like Histogen need in order to make solutions for people like us. If you disagree, read a book on business, I know this to be true.  

From a hairloss POV, I've had two transplants and I'm not happy about it. I know about HT very very intimately. I've tried propecia and I was unlucky enough to get symptoms. Intimate ones. And I'm left with Rogain foam 5% which might help me keep the hair I have left.

From a maths point of view. If I can get more hairs growing on my head, even 14 per square cm at minimum, I'm signing up. Thousands of others will.  

Lets be real about this. You probably don't get any more then 14 hairs per square cm from a good FUT operation. I know this is true too - because I've been there and done that. Donor only goes so far.

From a moral point of view. I don't give a **** about the morals of these businesses or any of the arguments I read on these forums. Mostly they are boring technicalities, conspiracy theories by people that have never tried to raise money before, and balding people that are emotionally biased. 

Oh I've been there but I am not be there anymore and I would rather focus my facilities on the solutions... whether I agree with em or not. 

I just want to get more hair upstairs. I guess we can both agree on that one, my balding brother  :Wink: 

To back the business stuff up. I almost lost a round of funding in a company once because of a disgruntled customer posting some lies online. The investors actually asked me about this during their due diligence. 

If people bash Histogen because they think they might be speeding up the process somehow... they are wrong. They are making shit difficult and slowing the process down for all of us. Including me which pisses me off.

Histogen / Aderans/ Cooley / Gho... I salute you.

----------


## stillinHS1994

Just sayin, but I i thought Aderans was getting 14 hairs a sq cm ....not Histogen...Has Histogen said they were getting 14 also?

----------


## Jundam

> If people bash Histogen because they think they might be speeding up the process somehow... they are wrong. They are making shit difficult and slowing the process down for all of us. Including me which pisses me off.
> 
> Histogen / Aderans/ Cooley / Gho... I salute you.


 I didn't really read all of it through 'cause I'm far too tired but all I will say is that nobody here is making things difficult or slowing down the process. You have to realize that nothing that happens on these forums affects hair loss research in the slightest. We really don't have anything to contribute either so as far as I'm concerned we're really just killing time while waiting for the next update. Honestly the more time I spend here the more useless it feels. Was probably better of as a silent observer checking in every once in a while to see if there's any updates.

----------


## Jundam

> Just sayin, but I i thought Aderans was getting 14 hairs a sq cm ....not Histogen...Has Histogen said they were getting 14 also?


 No, those were Aderans numbers. And honestly I'm not sure if they have even produced that yet or if that's still just a standard for measurement of success. They could just as well be below or above that number. Either way I won't bother thinking too much about it until they start phase III and try to maximize their numbers.

----------


## Kiwi

> I didn't really read all of it through 'cause I'm far too tired but all I will say is that nobody here is making things difficult or slowing down the process. You have to realize that nothing that happens on these forums affects hair loss research in the slightest. We really don't have anything to contribute either so as far as I'm concerned we're really just killing time while waiting for the next update. Honestly the more time I spend here the more useless it feels. Was probably better of as a silent observer checking in every once in a while to see if there's any updates.


 Well I can't argue with that. However I think its generally better to be positive and encouraging then to be the opposite. We know that docs from Histogen come here and we know that Cooley comes here. 

I don't want to bust their balls. They are doing good things. I hope you stick around and chat about things - it all helps us come to a better understanding of the bigger picture.

----------


## Dasani

I'm new to this form and I have to say I'm incredibly impressed with Histogen's HSC. If I'm not mistaken, Histogen saw results in the ballpark of 50 hairs / cm^2 in their first round of clinical trails? That's 1/4 full density (assuming 200 hairs cm^2 = full density) from a baseline injection of the complex with the goal of testing safety not efficacy. If this product is compoundable, problem solved. We can all just stop thinking about hair loss and live our lives.

In a sense I think of myself as being fortunate. While yes I am beginning to lose my hair at a young age, we're part of the first generation of human beings that will almost certainly see a cure for male pattern baldness in our lifetimes (with a very strong chance of a cure arriving in the next couple of years). I'm 22 now, but I fully expect there to be a viable option to restore a full head of hair for everyone suffering from MPB by the time I'm my dad's age. Of course I want something sooner, and I'm very optimistic. Our children will probably never have to deal with this. These are very exciting times. I say we all just hang in here and remain positive.  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

Lulz wish I could share your hope.

Unfortunately I've been in this game far too long to know a magic pill/injection will most likely not be the answer - however - a surgical procedure like that of Dr Gho's http://www.hasci.com/ seems far more viable.  Or something where they can inject multiplied cells in donor and transplant them into recipient, the cure (term used loosely) will come in the form of an evolution of hair transplants not a "eureka!" moment with some magic pixie dust.

----------


## Dasani

I'm honestly surprised that 50 new hairs per cm^2 isn't more impressive to people. For those who are just beginning to thin, this is already a 'cure'. Provided the results last for years (which they already appear to do, and Dr. Gail Naughton seems to think will probably last decades) and can be repeated if and when your hair starts to thin again.

Best of all its not something you have to do every day. I go to the dentist once a year or so to make sure my teeth don't fall out. I can certainly live with going to a doctor once a decade to make sure my hair doesn't fall out.

57 hairs actually
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=4366&page=16

I'm really excited to see if they can compound this with more injections. Even if it doesn't however and the product only grows a net gain of 50 hairs and stops any further loss (while thickening up surrounding follicles) that's already a product that renders rogaine and propecia obsolete (provided it doesn't cost a quarter million dollars)

----------


## Jundam

I'm with Dasani on this one. As I said earlier if Histogen is actually activating dormant follicles and resetting their lifespan then it is most likely just a matter of discovering what dosage and amount of injections is required to activate all of them and produce a full head of hair. The only other factor would be maintenance but anecdotal evidence from the safety trial patients showed that even two years after(which is the last report we got from Ziering) the patients were not seeing any signs of their results wearing off. Which fits with their predictions of HSC not just promoting hair growth but also resetting the lifespan of the follicles.

Personally I don't understand why people put their hope in a guy like Gho who has never delivered on any of his claims and seem perfectly fine with not proving anything this time around either.

----------


## carloseduardo

Hi, is the realease date for this treatment still 2015?

----------


## Jundam

There's no release date set. All they've said is 2013 in Asia at the earliest. Release in the rest of the world would depend on the various regulations in each zone. But right now any release dates are pure speculation.

----------


## CAlex

TERMIS Asia Pacific Meeting 2011

Schedule > TERMIS-AP 2011 > 3 August, Wednesday > 1100-1230 Concurrent Sessions and Symposia 1 > Session 1.2 Biomaterials I
Updated in 7/28/2011 3:24:52 PM Viewed: 19 times (Proceedings)
Tissue Engineering and Regenerative Medicine International Society Aisa Pacific Meeting 2011
Human Tissue Engineered Soluble ECM Stimulates Hair Growth While Inhibiting Cancer Cells
GK Naughton
ABSTRACT
Research has shown the importance of Wnt 7a, follistatin, and wound healing growth factors on the stimulation of bulge cells and inter-follicular stem cells to induce hair growth. We have developed a bioengineered human cell-derived formulation, termed Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC), consisting of such growth factors and morphogens. These factors are secreted neonatal fibroblasts seeded on microcarrier beads grown in suspension cultures under hypoxic conditions simulating the embryonic environment. Under these conditions over 5000 genes are differentially expressed as compared to normoxia and follicular stem cell surface markers are expressed, including LnX2, SOX 21, Nestin, NFATc1, and Krt 15.Following preclinical safety and efficacy studies in the C57Bl model, a clinical pilot study was undertaken. The double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized single site trial was primarily designed to evaluate safety of the HSC product with efficacy being the secondary goal. Data analysis indicated that HSC is safe and showed effectiveness in stimulating hair growth in subjects with male-pattern baldness. All subjects tolerated the procedures well and no adverse reactions were reported. The improvements from HSC treatment were significantly greater than that observed in placebo treated sites: hair shaft thickness (6.3% + 2.5% vs. -0.63% + 2.1%; p = 0.046), thickness density (12.8% + 4.5% vs. -0.2% + 2.9%; p = 0.028), and terminal hair density (20.6 + 4.9% vs. 4.4 + 4.9%; p = 0.029). Similar trends were seen at 52 wk, with total number of hairs increasing on the HSC-treated site. In addition, cancer lines have been reprogrammed by co-culture with embryonic ECM. Research with our embryonic-like soluble ECM has demonstrated its ability to diminish or eliminate tumor load in over 20 cancer cell lines, including melanoma, adenocarcinoma, colon cancer, glioma, mesothelioma, and prostate cancer, both in vitro and in two animal models. In the tumor chorioallantoic membrane (tumcam) model hECM significantly inhibited tumor growth with tumor mass being reduced in weight by up to 80%. In subcutaneous mouse experiments, tumor growth was also inhibited from 70-90% among the same cancer cell lines. The inhibitory affect is selective for malignant cells. Whereas most cancer therapies target rapidly dividing cells and not cancer stem cell, hECM has been shown to target both cell types through the upregulation of Caspase 9 which forces the cells into apoptosis.


thats the latest histogen update although Im not sure if it is still boasting 57 new hairs per cm2

----------


## Jundam

"Following preclinical safety and efficacy studies in the C57Bl model, a clinical pilot study was undertaken. The double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized single site trial was primarily designed to evaluate safety of the HSC product with efficacy being the secondary goal."

As far as I can tell that's just another presentation of the information collected from the phase I clinical trial, meaning the information that was released at the start of this thread. Most likely this was just a meeting to inform colleagues, partners or investors of their product.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

can somebody post histogen pictures? They seem to have less proof than the hated Gho.



I heard that 70 follicles per cm will create the appearance of full density, or a cosmetically pleasing density. is this true?



They don't seem to be telling us much more than they did two years ago and don't give the appearance of making much progress over the last two years




did they start phase II in asia yet? I thought they would be done with phase II before 2012?





if they are getting 57 hairs per cm from one injection...

1. how far of a radius from the injection does this hair grow? and how is that even possible?

2.  why aren't they showing pictures? 57 hairs per cm is better than most hair trasnplant densities. Gho has offered some pretty dense stuff, see joling and wesley.... but even he says he can't do 70 hairs per cm during the first procedure..... so....

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## mlao

There is only one picture floating around of an actual top down view of someones head. If you search Histogen HSC in google images you will find it.
Trust me it is not that impressive. I believe the study from which it was taken from was for concept and safety.

----------


## Dasani

> There is only one picture floating around of an actual top down view of someones head. If you search Histogen HSC in google images you will find it.
> Trust me it is not that impressive. I believe the study from which it was taken from was for concept and safety.


 I've seen that picture and you're right it's nothing impressive. But that's because it's pretty low resolution and was taken from several feet away. And the area that was tested was only 1.47cm^2. Obviously you're not going to see detail from that far away. 0.1mm injection produced continued growth for an entire year, with impressive results in only 3 months. I can't help but be very optimistic.

Not only that but this treatment is far more simple than a traditional hair transplant, requiring a minute fraction of the man hours and presumably not requiring as skilled a technician to administer the injections. I don't know how expensive this material is to manufacture and in what quantities they can produce it, but I'm hopeful for a future where restoring a full head of hair for anyone is a matter of spending maybe 1-2 hours in a doctors office a couple times throughout your life.

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## Purple Glow

50 hairs per cm2 + a concealer like Nanogen or Hair Cubed is a full head of hair.  So if they make no further gains, Histogen is already a baldness cure.

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## Jundam

> 50 hairs per cm2 + a concealer like Nanogen or Hair Cubed is a full head of hair.  So if they make no further gains, Histogen is already a baldness cure.


 It is not a cure if it needs a concealer.

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## Dasani

Yeah I won't consider anything requiring a concealer worthy of the term 'cure.' Besides I have much higher hopes for histogen

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## RichardDawkins

Concealer LOL thats not a cure.

A cure is stopping hair loss, getting some of the follicles back and then fill the rest with something like HST. This is a cure and the end of story

----------


## GBB

The billion dollar question is---have they begun their 'spring' trials? No one seems to know. Where have they all vanished?

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## ALLISWELL

They sold their shares to aderans lyk intercytex, :P

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## CAlex

I dont understand how so many people get their facts mixed up.

50 hairs per cm/2 will not give you a full looking head of hair since it is only about a 1/4 of natural density. The entire lie about you have to lose 50% of your natural density before you begin to appear thinning is from the ht docs so they can sell people on ht's.

histogens initial trial(if their data is not tweaked or misrepresented) is very promising. if in their phase 2 which may or may not have begun yet can reproduce the 57 new hairs per cm/2 over larger areas then we are in business.

Hopefully they are able to get a greater number of hairs to grow because they will be trying more injections and different levels of the hsc ****tail.

As for pictures. They have released them a long time ago so go look and stop complaining.

the issue is the area that was treated was very small, about the size of a penny, give or take. It is close up macroscopic picture so their appears to be large areas of empty spaces between the hairs which makes it look much less positive then it really is.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/markwah...5987/lightbox/

if you were to take a macroscopic picture of the same size area of the picture I posted you would see large areas of bald scalp between each hair too.

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## UK_

They produced circa 85 hairs per cm2.

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## Dasani

> They produced circa 85 hairs per cm2.


 That's great, the link I provided above was a quote referencing 57 hairs per cm^2. Do You have a source for this? I think you might be mistakenly reading the increase of 87 hairs in the treated area, which works out to 87 hairs 1.47cm^2.

If you do the math that's = to ~59 hairs per cm^2

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## Purple Glow

> Concealer LOL thats not a cure.
> 
> A cure is stopping hair loss, getting some of the follicles back and then fill the rest with something like HST. This is a cure and the end of story


 Look, there is no cure on the market now.  You are going bald.  Histogen plus concealer = full head of hair.  That's a cure to me.  I would pay big bucks for that result if I was bald.

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## RichardDawkins

i stick with what dr cole said about Ari and Histogen, so dont hold your hopes up

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## DepressedByHairLoss

That post from Dr. Cole seemed awfully suspicious to me.  He claims that Aderans and Histogen have other agendas but so does he, I believe.  It is not in a hair transplant doctor's best interest to admit that there are going to better technologies out there very soon to hopefully make these archaic hair transplants obsolete.  If he admitted that Histogen was actually working, then it would discourage people from running out to get hair transplants, what he specializes in in the first place.  I think he and other hair transplant doctors are knocking these new and potentially effective treatments so that people will think that nothing new is in the pipeline with regards to hair loss, and then ultimately get a hair transplant with them.  And personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing about 'plucking', 'grafting', and 'transplantation'.   We are in desperate need of more options, particularly ones that don't leave permanent scars and marks all over your head.

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## Dasani

I don't even want to entertain the idea of using a concealer. I'm just beginning to thin, no one besides myself has really even noticed. Histogen's product stops the progression of MPB like that wizard in lord of the rings (think 'You shall not pass!'). And then on top of that it grows back a ton of hair.

The trick is going to be compounding for all of the treatments that are currently in the pipeline. If histogens HSC compounds to the point where you get all your hair back that's great. I can't imagine why the aderans (or replicel) technique wouldn't compound either. Aderans is saying it's seeing results of 12 new hairs per cm2 in it's early trials. Those are 12 permanent, DHT resistant hairs (presumably). That's great, if they can boost those results to just say 20 hairs, and it's compoundable, then it becomes a 'cure.' Think of it like orthodontics as a kid, you have braces for ~ two years, then your teeth are fixed for life. With this you receive a set of injections once every two months, then two years after initial treatment you have a full head of hair for life (with results improving as treatment progresses and no need to do anything like wear a retainer for the rest of your life)

This whole 1/2 your original density to look good thing doesn't sound like my ideal endpoint. Call me greedy but I want the 200/hairs per cm2 full density and I'm hoping a hair doctor will let me persue that if these treatment options make that possible

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## Purple Glow

Concealers are pretty awesome.  I use nanogen.  It takes about 30 seconds in the morning to apply, and it looks perfect.  No side effects.  My barber is amazed as how well it works.  That's why I consider a minimum guarantee of no bald spots and just diffuse growth a cure.

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## CAlex

@ DASANI

I dont mean to scare you but your expectations are completely ridiculous about getting 200 hairs cm/2 by any of the current treatments in the pipeline. You may have only begun to thin but histogen isnt due out for at least 4-5 years. You may have progressed to a NW 5 by that time for all you know.

your posts make you sound very young and unaware of how many times a cure has been just around the corner and never reached market. 

right now none of the histogen, follica, and aderans are all in their infancy so dont go planning your afro party until they at least get through Phase 2 trials and show their results work on larger areas of scalp and completely bald skin.

A MAJOR part of trials is also dialing the "product" to cost the consumer the most amount of money and make it a needed repeat purchase. Almost of product on the market today(medical/technological) is designed and tweaked to a lower level of quality then was reached in the lab/factory.

Its called *Planned obsolescence* and histogen will undoubtedly fall into this practice

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I dunno, I think that Histogen's HSC complex will be available sooner than later, maybe just worldwide and not in the U.S.  But that doesn't matter to me; I'll travel to the end of the earth to regrow my hair.  It will probably take a while to get FDA approval (hell, the FDA is even complaining now about Latisse being used for hair loss!), but at least they're conducting trials in the Far East so that should speed things up.  Right now they're in a combined Phase I/Phase II trial to prove that the complex is safe.  If they get done with that by this year or next, then its on to Phase III to prove its effectiveness.  That's when we'll hopefully really see some good stuff happen.  I have more confidence in Histogen than any other company out there right now.  Man, if we had more Histogens out there, my confidence for an effective treatment for hair loss would be very high.

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## Dasani

True there has been announcements of a 'cure' before that didn't pan out, but Histogen is the first company to come along with 'real' results. The numbers are there, 57 hairs per cm2 -- from an injection designed to test safety. But of course the only way to know for sure is to wait for the second round of clinical trials. I just hope this stuff compounds, because if it does that's the end of male pattern baldness forever.

----------


## Dasani

And I disagree about there being a need for dialing the product to make it a repeat purchase. I think this practice will be very much like orthodontics, something most people have done once in their lives and then after completing payments they're done for life with perfect teeth. I think hair restoration will have a similar model

----------


## CVAZBAR

> i stick with what dr cole said about Ari and Histogen, so dont hold your hopes up


 Im not expecting Histogen to turn a NW7 into a NW1. I'm hoping for Histogen to help out with halting hair loss and if it can do more, great! We can then combine this with every other option we have. You said this yourself. Dr Cole seems to believe that everyone is expecting complete transformation. As much as I respect the guy, we know how fast he can change his mind.

----------


## UK_

> True there has been announcements of a 'cure' before that didn't pan out, but Histogen is the first company to come along with 'real' results. The numbers are there, 57 hairs per cm2 -- from an injection designed to test safety. But of course the only way to know for sure is to wait for the second round of clinical trials. I just hope this stuff compounds, because if it does that's the end of male pattern baldness forever.


 Not exactly - there have been results with similar procedures but they turned out to be unsafe.

If Histogen can prove safety, then I see no reason why we cannot go beyond the current rates of growth seen through the use of repeated treatments/stronger doses; I am more worried about proving this product safe than anything else.

----------


## Kiwi

> Not exactly - there have been results with similar procedures but they turned out to be unsafe.
> 
> If Histogen can prove safety, then I see no reason why we cannot go beyond the current rates of growth seen through the use of repeated treatments/stronger doses; I am more worried about proving this product safe than anything else.


 I don't care if they can improve graft count or not - what they have now is good enough for me... they should launch that and not be greedy with their first product. 

Launch something safe that is better then minox and propecia. Then while they are making millions of dollars launch a better product later on. 

Heck thats how the world works now with most things - its business 101. Launch! Get something out the door!!

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## UK_

Kiwi, I totally feel you but safety is something that never really leaves the scope of any stage of clinical trial.

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## Kiwi

yeah don't get me wrong - i'm just saying that if they could make it more powerful don't do it at the risk of delaying a launch and more stringent FDA approval...

in other news I hate my hair today - total downer. i wish my first two transplants worked out better  :Smile:

----------


## Dasani

I'm sure we're all dying to see what the results are of their phase 2 trials. I'm hoping this treatment compounds. I can't imagine why more doses wouldn't produce more results but we'll have to see.

hypothetical scenario: this treatment is proven to be 100% safe, but doesn't get any more than 57 hairs per cm2 (I don't expect this to be the case but we just don't know for sure until they test it) - do you guys think there would be a market of people who just have naturally thin hair that would be interesting in increasing their hair density with this product? I can't see why not.

----------


## CAlex

Im not sure why everyone is so sure that the results are compoundable. There is NO way to KNOW that without trials. All I honestly care about is seeing if it stays safe through phase 2 and works on larger areas. ie 5 injections grows the same 57 new hair over 5cm giving 285 new hair. Any compounding effect that will produce further density is OBVIOUSLY of great importance to us but lets just see if it works over larger areas first lol. we can get greedy after that.

If this compound is proven to work over a larger area and is released to market it would be a "cure" for all future young men and women who were headed to future hair loss.

AS soon as they began to notice any hair loss they could just go get a few injections and it would strengthen all the effected hairs. This treatment could be used for all future people just beginning to notice hairloss until a " better" genetic or whatever treatment would be discovered.

anyone being born today wont have to battle hairloss as we have had to do. the hardest part of fighting hairloss is reversing it. in 20 years preventative medicine based on earlier work(todays histogens and follicas) will have hairloss beaten.

----------


## Dasani

> Im not sure why everyone is so sure that the results are compoundable. There is NO way to KNOW that without trials. All I honestly care about is seeing if it stays safe through phase 2 and works on larger areas. ie 5 injections grows the same 57 new hair over 5cm giving 285 new hair. Any compounding effect that will produce further density is OBVIOUSLY of great importance to us but lets just see if it works over larger areas first lol. we can get greedy after that.
> 
> If this compound is proven to work over a larger area and is released to market it would be a "cure" for all future young men and women who were headed to future hair loss.
> 
> AS soon as they began to notice any hair loss they could just go get a few injections and it would strengthen all the effected hairs. This treatment could be used for all future people just beginning to notice hairloss until a " better" genetic or whatever treatment would be discovered.
> 
> anyone being born today wont have to battle hairloss as we have had to do. the hardest part of fighting hairloss is reversing it. in 20 years preventative medicine based on earlier work(todays histogens and follicas) will have hairloss beaten.


 Didn't mean to say I was 100% positive this will compound or it will work over larger areas. Yes I agree we should be cautiously optimistic, but optimistic nonetheless. In the clinical trials the HSC injections caused hair regrowth in both the back and the front regions of the head. That's a good sign.

----------


## Dasani

I'm very much looking forward to their phase 2 results. This upcoming fall/winter is a very exciting time. We're going to see results from Histogen's phase 2 clinical trails, replicel's first phase of clinical trails, and probably Aderans latest findings.

----------


## CAlex

I hope you are not losing sight of the still very real possibility that none of the current big hopes(histogen, follica ,aderans, replicel) will ever make it to market. Be it because safety concerns that could arise or the results are not consistent enough.

It just always worries me when I see too much enthusiasm from young posters.  Im sure everyone on here is looking forward to phase 2 results but It could go from exciting to heartbreak overnight. All Im saying is be cautious with your hopes.

Ive just run into a few younger guys on forums get their expectations way out of whack and then spiral into pretty bad states of depression when new drugs/companies went belly up.

All that being said histogen keeps us decently informed and their results so far are very promising.

----------


## Thinning@30

I agree that Histogen's results are promising, but I wish they would give us an update on the status of their trials.  I'm worried.  It would be nice to know if they actually began the Phase I/II trials in July like they said they would.  Granted they wouldn't have much as far as results after only a few weeks, but certainly they could tell us if all the subjects have been recruited and given their injections yet.

----------


## Dasani

Yeah I'm really not expecting to hear much until the end of the year or Q1 2012, which is fine I know these companies are busy with testing and probably don't have much to report until all data has been collected. But yes I agree it would be nice to have a confirmation that Histogen's trails began and are in progress.

----------


## MrRyan

I have a few questions if any of you would like to answer, i was thinking Histogen has already done an initial safety trial with no adverse effects, and it seems that they had a good result in terms of helping at least keep hair on the head and stopping further hair loss, so they have a product that works and is safe, yes they have a lot of refining to do to make an optimum treatment i understand that, but why not market what they have i mean i'm guessing nearly everyone here would go for it, even an unrefined product. It seems to be a thousand times better than any of the crap offered to us at the minute.

The reason i say this is they need funding right ? well the revenue they would get would be massive and it would allow them to carry on with their research as they please, and in the process help us unfortunate hair loss sufferers. My second question is, and i know that know one really knows, but is Histogen really just for people with thinning hair, say a person has had hair missing for around a year or two would it rejuvenate that hair back in to growth or is that just never going to happen, i know the second question is really opinion, but i would still like to hear your views on it.

Thanks.

----------


## Dasani

> I have a few questions if any of you would like to answer, i was thinking Histogen has already done an initial safety trial with no adverse effects, and it seems that they had a good result in terms of helping at least keep hair on the head and stopping further hair loss, so they have a product that works and is safe, yes they have a lot of refining to do to make an optimum treatment i understand that, but why not market what they have i mean i'm guessing nearly everyone here would go for it, even an unrefined product. It seems to be a thousand times better than any of the crap offered to us at the minute.
> 
> The reason i say this is they need funding right ? well the revenue they would get would be massive and it would allow them to carry on with their research as they please, and in the process help us unfortunate hair loss sufferers. My second question is, and i know that know one really knows, but is Histogen really just for people with thinning hair, say a person has had hair missing for around a year or two would it rejuvenate that hair back in to growth or is that just never going to happen, i know the second question is really opinion, but i would still like to hear your views on it.
> 
> Thanks.


 Well histogens initial clinical trails were aimed at establishing safety, but that was only 24 patients. They need to conduct further trials to further establish safety and improve the efficacy of their results before they can bring a product to market. The initial results were very promising, with an average of 57 new hairs per cm2 from a baseline injection with results showing no signs of wearing off after two years. The great hope is that further trails confirm the safety of this product and repeated injections induce further hair growth.

----------


## stillinHS1994

^^^^ GOOD SH&T!!! let's just hope it keeps going well in the trials

----------


## UK_

> ^^^^ GOOD SH&T!!! let's just hope it keeps going well in the trials


 1994.. good year... those were the days.

----------


## stillinHS1994

Would have been even better if they cured Mpb the year I was born...wouldn't be worrying about this shit now 17 years later in high school.....f my genetics

----------


## Dasani

Haha yeah, I know how you feel man. Hopefully one of the big 4 will come up with a cure in the next couple of years and we can all go on living our lives with full heads of hair and not having to think about MPB.

If they do cure it however, we're all going to intensely appreciate the hair that we'll have - that's for sure.

----------


## Cory

It looks like that Histogen and Replicel might be end, from no effective treatment all these years till cure.

I'm really most excited about HSC even the hair wont last forever, you should go every couple years for maintence and price is OK.

Replicel will have something to report in Q2012, I guess Histogen will also have some news about same time, 2014 could be "the year", maybe even Replicel comes out also same year.

Only thing I'm also curious is Follica, it's looks that they have big nothing, George Costeralis is only big on words.

----------


## Dasani

> It looks like that Histogen and Replicel might be end, from no effective treatment all these years till cure.
> 
> I'm really most excited about HSC even the hair wont last forever, you should go every couple years for maintence and price is OK.
> 
> Replicel will have something to report in Q2012, I guess Histogen will also have some news about same time, 2014 could be "the year", maybe even Replicel comes out also same year.
> 
> Only thing I'm also curious is Follica, it's looks that they have big nothing, George Costeralis is only big on words.


 I'm excited by all of the potential treatments coming down the pipeline. For the first time the big 4 are all actually growing significant amounts of new, terminal hairs.

Over the years we've moved from hair loss being inevitable with nothing you can do about it. To hairloss being temporarily halted and/or slowed down (with minor regrowth) with treatments like rogaine and propecia. To now we're actually moving towards growing new hairs. We're basically coming to the end of male pattern baldness being an inevitable part of life for many people. For thousands of years men have had to deal with MPB. It's definitely going to end during our lifetimes. The big questions is how much longer, not 'if.'

I've been very successful with propecia and rogaine. I caught my hair loss very early and I managed to regrow some of what I've lost to the point where I'm comfortable with the amount of hair that I have. My hope is that the effects of propecia and rogaine last until a superior treatment comes out.

----------


## doinmyheadin

Any more news on trials? Have they started yet?

----------


## UK_

Megalols, it seems Iron_Man on HairSite has _only just_ read the Raising Hairs article on Nature Biotech:

http://www.*************/hair-loss/bo...ategory-1.html

Iron_Man, here is the full paragraph that contains the line you used to solidify your silly contention that HSC is all hype n doomed to failure:




> Follica is in clinical trials to optimize both the device and drug components. Ju would not discuss specifics of the trial design, in part because consumer interest is so intense. *“There's a lot of good work going on in hair growth,* *but there's a lot of hype in the field as well.* A lot of times patients have this rollercoaster: 'Oh, there's a great discovery!' 'Oh, it didn't work.' Because of that, we take a relatively conservative route in terms of disclosure.”


 Your contention that Ju [_Follica CEO William Ju_ :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ] was referring specifically to HSC here is, with all due respect, absolute bollocks, I could just as easily state that Ju was referring to HSC as _"the good work"_ and [for arguments sake] Gho as the hype (dont have a heart attack I still think Gho's procedure works).




> In addition to hair-stimulating complex, Histogen is deriving products for skin care and post-laser surgery healing and dermal filler for other wound-healing applications. For hair loss, the hair-stimulating complex is injected into the scalp at the level of where the stem cells are known to be, Naughton says. “What we've found is only a 0.1 cc injection of our material, a one-time injection, creates 25 new hairs within about 2 mm of the injection site. And the hair not only continues to grow during the first year, *but at the two-year follow-up, it continues to be present.”*


 .

Full article can be accessed here:

http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v2.../nbt.1887.html

 :Big Grin:

----------


## Dasani

"25 hairs per 2mm around the injection site." That's very good news for two reasons. First, if HSC has that level of control/accuracy in growing new hairs around the entire scalp it can be used on the hairline without fear of an irregular pattern.

Second, 25 hairs in a 2mm^2 area is a lot. Almost too much, which makes me want to confirm those are the correct numbers. This is why:

If natural human hair density averages around 200 hairs / cm^2, then the average human hair density of 2mm^2 should be about 4 hairs. If histogen is generating 25 hairs in an area of 2mm^2 that means they have achieved 625% average human hair density in that given area.

Another way of putting it, if they achieve an average density of 25 hairs per 2mm^2 area all around the scalp, that's 1,250 hairs per cm^2.

Please someone, check my math.

----------


## RichardDawkins

I agree this is almost too much i also wanna see results but i agree with IronMan you could use Histogens HSC as an HST accelerator

----------


## CAlex

I didnt see it say 2mm2 unless im reading it wrong. Wouldn't it be more like 4mm2?

very basic  dot picture to illustrate lol

*.  .  .
        .  .  .
        .  .  .*
--->
4mm 


Center dot is injection site. Hairs  are created 2mm up, 2mm to the right and 2mm to the left(4MM across) and 2 mm down.

so 4mm makes more sense unless my interpretation or math is wrong. 4mm2 is almost 1/2 a cm squared where normal density for that area would be between 70-100 hairs.  SO the 25 hair data fits in with their earlier info on how effective their treatment was in the preclinical trial 

It does bode well for accurate hairline work. All I care is that this stuff gets to market. I dont care if its 2014 or 2016- 17

----------


## stillinHS1994

AAAAAHHHHHHHH SH%T .....TOO MUCH HAIR ...watever shall I do?....r those legit histogen numbers?...cuz damn that is a lot of hair....talk about no thin spots

----------


## CVAZBAR

Follica is finishing Phase 2 Trials in Europe according to TBT SHOW. Anyone has more info on this?

----------


## UK_

> "... it continues to be present."


 lol




> Like Intercytex - show investors (and/or idiots) some "convincing" carrots and you'll get what you want.


 Pah!  Now you're _agreeing_ with Dr Cole? - I can see a mile through your bullshit - 

I suppose Follica are running the same scam eh?  




> the only light at the end of this tunnel is dr gho ,s 
>  procedure , i know people love bashing him but at least he is trying to
>  make a difference.


 Rolfcopter

----------


## NeedHairASAP

for having "the cure" they don't seem to be in much of a rush to actually sell it.....

----------


## CAlex

WOW MY earlier post was way off in the second part lol.

the injection would basically cause new hairs to grow in an area of 4mm/2 area

----------


## UK_

> Follica is finishing Phase 2 Trials in Europe according to TBT SHOW. Anyone has more info on this?


 Got a link?

----------


## CAlex

WOW MY earlier post was way off in the second part lol.

the injection would basically cause new hairs to grow in an area of 4mm/2 area.  That being said I think those numbers are wrong from the earlier article clipping. Dr Ziering has even posted they were achieving 57 new hairs per cm/2.

They cant really rush trials. I dont see how anyone can complain as histogen should still be able to get to market as soon as 2.5 years. Even if they hit some roadblocks as trials usually do (data collection, tweaking the formula, enrolling phase 3 etc etc) I dont see what could keep histogen from being available in 4-5 years at the furthest.

Unlike Follica, Histogen already knows their delivery system and formula works. All they have to do is refine the hsc solution or even just keep the same concentration that yielded them their initial 57 new hairs per cm/2

Aside from a safety concern from arising or histogen discovering in the phase 2 trial that the results do not have the ability to be spread over larger areas even with more injections I cant see histogen not being available within 5 years maximum withing the United States.

Going to be a lot of injections though lol. Like 250 injections to treat a 40cm/2 area. Wonder if they will charge by cm/2 area treated or what. They could just sell the formula and training to current ht doctors and any dermatologists, and plastic surgeons.

----------


## lockness

How much is 40cm/2??  Roughly anyway...??

----------


## stillinHS1994

> WOW MY earlier post was way off in the second part lol.
> 
> the injection would basically cause new hairs to grow in an area of 4mm/2 area.  That being said I think those numbers are wrong from the earlier article clipping. Dr Ziering has even posted they were achieving 57 new hairs per cm/2.
> 
> They cant really rush trials. I dont see how anyone can complain as histogen should still be able to get to market as soon as 2.5 years. Even if they hit some roadblocks as trials usually do (data collection, tweaking the formula, enrolling phase 3 etc etc) I dont see what could keep histogen from being available in 4-5 years at the furthest.
> 
> Unlike Follica, Histogen already knows their delivery system and formula works. All they have to do is refine the hsc solution or even just keep the same concentration that yielded them their initial 57 new hairs per cm/2
> 
> Aside from a safety concern from arising or histogen discovering in the phase 2 trial that the results do not have the ability to be spread over larger areas even with more injections I cant see histogen not being available within 5 years maximum withing the United States.
> ...


 man the world would be such a better place if everyone had your optimism

----------


## stillinHS1994

Idk if this is right but according to this conversion chart I found on the web it says 40 cm is about 16 in long so a 40cm^2 section would be 16in by 16in.... Idk how big ur head is but that should cover it

----------


## CAlex

My earlier posts were done quickly and some of the math is way off I think lol.

When I said 40 cm squared I meant If your hairline was (just for easy numbers) is 20 cm across and you have lost hair 2cm deep all the way along. Im not sure that cant be 40cm2.

@stillinHS1994
"man the world would be such a better place if everyone had your optimism"

LOL what optimism? Im not saying hsc will make it to market but the only stuff that can stop it is 1) a safety issue  2) Results not working over larger areas for some reason.

as long as they can just produce the initial 57 new hairs over every cm/2 that would be a great treatment to add to peoples arsenal. Until Phase 2 is done Im still holding my breathe lol

Ok well I wont post anymore for while lol. sleepy and my math is way off

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Got a link?


 Nah homie, Im looking for the same. This was reported on the show yesterday so I'm sure it's legit.

----------


## RichardDawkins

hope this show goes online here in some time, also the cole interview

----------


## CVAZBAR

> hope this show goes online here in some time, also the cole interview


 He is lagging the Cole interview. He said he would have it weeks back. 

Are you sure you can't see or listen to the show?

----------


## Losing_It

I am not a religious person, but from tonight onwards I am saying a prayer that HSC comes through the Phase II trials with positive results. I had a look at their website and it says its in Phase 1, so I assume the trial is underway.  I would take 57 hairs cm2, assuming they can replicate this in further trials. Beggars can't be chooses. This is way more than whats on offer these days, without having a scar, and if it can reset the clock on miniaturized follicles, like they are suggesting that would be absolutely great. Hell even resetting the clock with some regrowth is still a winner in my book.

As far as I understand, the initial study tested two formulations with both showing regrowth. There would be no reason then to think that stronger formulations can't build on the initial dosages. Like they say in science though, 1 is not a pattern. One thing is certain though, the next 6-12 months will be make or break. Either we get our hopes dashed or we get the miracle we all been waiting. Pity the world will be ending in 2012. 

For arguments sake, histogen survives the clinical trials and go to market, I am skeptical about the proposed lasting rates of new follicles. I think Dr. Noughton indicated that new follicles will last the same time as the last one, if you bald at age 20, they should last for 20 year. But is it not that men only get exposed to rampant DHT after puberty. So if you were destined to be a NW6 or 7 by age 25-30, is it not true that your new hairline will only last 5 or so years. If you start at 30 or 40, the new hairs should last that long. 

Basically what i am asking is whether the effectiveness of HSC will be dependent at what stage you will at a certain age. Stages 4, 5, 6 , 7 by 30 not very effective and you will need more injections or am i just talking out of my ass?

----------


## UK_

> man the world would be such a better place if everyone had your optimism


 Too true!!

----------


## UK_

> He is lagging the Cole interview. He said he would have it weeks back. 
> 
> Are you sure you can't see or listen to the show?


 Where did you hear about Follica finishing up on Phase II?

----------


## Jundam

> I am not a religious person, but from tonight onwards I am saying a prayer that HSC comes through the Phase II trials with positive results. I had a look at their website and it says its in Phase 1, so I assume the trial is underway.  I would take 57 hairs cm2, assuming they can replicate this in further trials. Beggars can't be chooses. This is way more than whats on offer these days, without having a scar, and if it can reset the clock on miniaturized follicles, like they are suggesting that would be absolutely great. Hell even resetting the clock with some regrowth is still a winner in my book.
> 
> As far as I understand, the initial study tested two formulations with both showing regrowth. There would be no reason then to think that stronger formulations can't build on the initial dosages. Like they say in science though, 1 is not a pattern. One thing is certain though, the next 6-12 months will be make or break. Either we get our hopes dashed or we get the miracle we all been waiting. Pity the world will be ending in 2012. 
> 
> For arguments sake, histogen survives the clinical trials and go to market, I am skeptical about the proposed lasting rates of new follicles. I think Dr. Noughton indicated that new follicles will last the same time as the last one, if you bald at age 20, they should last for 20 year. But is it not that men only get exposed to rampant DHT after puberty. So if you were destined to be a NW6 or 7 by age 25-30, is it not true that your new hairline will only last 5 or so years. If you start at 30 or 40, the new hairs should last that long. 
> 
> Basically what i am asking is whether the effectiveness of HSC will be dependent at what stage you will at a certain age. Stages 4, 5, 6 , 7 by 30 not very effective and you will need more injections or am i just talking out of my ass?


 As Gail put it in a previous interview it appeared to grow hair in places where there previously was none which means it does not only revitalize active stem cells but also activates dormant ones. And as you say there is no reason to believe it cannot be compounded based on what we've learned so far. If you can activate one stem cell you can activate them all, question would seem to be how high dosage/how many treatments would be required to wake them all up. That to me means your position on the Norwood scale doesn't decide whether or not it works but rather how much it will cost.

As for the other part it's hard to know. It is possible that it simply restores the hair follicles to their pre-MPB state and then the decline starts over again at the same pace as it did the first time. I.e if you lost your hair at 20, and you entered puberty at 15, you've got 5 years before you need to return for another round of injections. If it does nothing to the receptors(for example strengthens their tolerance to DHT and other potential antagonists) this is probably the case. The choice will then most likely be between returning every five years or starting an anti-androgen treatment in combination with the HSC injections to prolong the results.

This is all guess-work I suppose. But it's logical to me. Still, nothing we can do but wait and see.

----------


## Dasani

> WOW MY earlier post was way off in the second part lol.
> 
> the injection would basically cause new hairs to grow in an area of 4mm/2 area.  That being said I think those numbers are wrong from the earlier article clipping. Dr Ziering has even posted they were achieving 57 new hairs per cm/2.
> 
> They cant really rush trials. I dont see how anyone can complain as histogen should still be able to get to market as soon as 2.5 years. Even if they hit some roadblocks as trials usually do (data collection, tweaking the formula, enrolling phase 3 etc etc) I dont see what could keep histogen from being available in 4-5 years at the furthest.
> 
> Unlike Follica, Histogen already knows their delivery system and formula works. All they have to do is refine the hsc solution or even just keep the same concentration that yielded them their initial 57 new hairs per cm/2
> 
> Aside from a safety concern from arising or histogen discovering in the phase 2 trial that the results do not have the ability to be spread over larger areas even with more injections I cant see histogen not being available within 5 years maximum withing the United States.
> ...


 Hey CAlex I think you're a little bit off on your math there. If hair grows in the area 2mm around the injection site that means it grows in a circle pattern and the radius is 2mm. That means the area of the circle is 2*PI*R (r being 2mm). 2*3.14*2 = 12.56mm^2. Another way of stating that is 0.1256cm^2.

So if normal hair density per 1cm^2 = 200 hairs, hair density per 12mm^2 should be --> 0.1256 * 200 = 25.12 hairs per 12.56mm^2.

That means they've achieved average human hair density in the area of a 2mm radius surrounding the injection site? Wow.

----------


## Losing_It

@Dasani, 

Lets hope they can replicate this in the current trials. Then we all set and its just a matter of price and of course safety. I am buying all the scientist involved a decent bottle of whiskey, if all goes to plan. 

Does anyone know what happened with their plans to do some exploratory trails earlier this year, where they wanted to do 50 injections at baseline, to fine tune their current trials. Did that ever happen?

----------


## Dasani

> Hey CAlex I think you're a little bit off on your math there. If hair grows in the area 2mm around the injection site that means it grows in a circle pattern and the radius is 2mm. That means the area of the circle is 2*PI*R (r being 2mm). 2*3.14*2 = 12.56mm^2. Another way of stating that is 0.1256cm^2.
> 
> So if normal hair density per 1cm^2 = 200 hairs, hair density per 12mm^2 should be --> 0.1256 * 200 = 25.12 hairs per 12.56mm^2.
> 
> That means they've achieved average human hair density in the area of a 2mm radius surrounding the injection site? Wow.


 Actually I was slightly off on my math... the area of a circle is PI*R^2. But since the R happened to be 2... 2*3.14*2 is equal to 3.14*2^2. So the area measurements are the same.

This makes me wonder, maybe another treatment strategy COULD be to simply increase the proximity of the injections?

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I won't complain if a round of injections every 5 years does the trick as long as the cost is reasonable.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

The thing with me is that cost is not even an issue.  I'm not rich and I don't have a decent job but I will find some way to afford it.  I would give anything for hair regrowth and I will travel anywhere.  If we had an effective option out there, I'd be all over it.  As many people on here know, I refuse to get a hair transplant since I don't want permanent scars or marks all over my head for the rest of my life, not to mention a lifelong commitment to Propecia especially since I feel its giving me side effects.  So yeah, cost was never an issue for me or something that I'm worried about.  If a non-invasive WNT treatment cost the same as a traditional hair transplant and was available, I'd be absolutely all over it, no question.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Ok lets play this through for once ok.

Assume every three years (just in case) you have to pay around 5000 Dollars for a full head injection. Assume you are 30 years old and you live for lets say until you are 75. This means 35 years divided through 3 makes around 11 sessions a 5k is around 55.000 US Dollars.

And now compare this to something like HST. For around 55.000 Dollars you would get around 5 session a 2300 Grafts, which will make 11.500 Grafts on your head which are solid.

Also in the HST case you would need around 6 years and you are done but with HSC you will need it to fix it up every three years.

But i wont complain like SPanishDude hre because i am happy for every possible option we could have

----------


## UK_

> In addition to hair-stimulating complex, Histogen is deriving products for skin care and post-laser surgery healing and dermal filler for other wound-healing applications. For hair loss, the hair-stimulating complex is injected into the scalp at the level of where the stem cells are known to be, Naughton says. What we've found is only a 0.1 cc injection of our material, a one-time injection, creates 25 new hairs within about 2 mm of the injection site. And the hair not only continues to grow during the first year, but at the two-year follow-up, it continues to be present.
> 
> It looks as though we're seeing brand new follicles because hair is coming out of the scalp where none was noticeable before, she says. *Even so, it's possible that the treatment energized dying follicles rather than truly creating new ones.* Naughton can't be sure how long-lasting the stimulated hair growth is with Histogen's product. *We are told by stem cell experts that once you stimulate stem cells and either reinvigorate a dying follicle or create a whole new follicle, the effects should last as long as the follicles originally lasted in your head. So if you started losing your hair at age 25, hypothetically you should have that new follicle around for another 25 years.* Of course, the only way to know for sure is to follow patients for that long, she says.
> 
> As to safety, no issues arose in the first trial. A second phase 2 trial will test two sets of injections of the hair-stimulating complex in 50 patients in Singapore starting in June.


 ..........

----------


## MrRyan

This all sounds great and all, but i started thinking it may just be too late for us men in the MPB process, i mean if it works the future generation will get the benefits of this and not us. I am only just starting to see i'm losing my hair, but by the time HSC comes out my hair isn't going to look so great and i will probably have bald areas by that time which gets me down because i could have been a few years off being able to get MPB under control with HSC.

And also why don't Histogen come on here say, once a month and just let us all know how things are going instead of making us all second guess about what might or might not be happening, after all it's just good business to let potential customers know what is going on.

----------


## Dasani

It's crazy how emotional everyone gets around the topic of hairloss. I'd rather not think about "What if it's $5000 every 3 years?! or 'What if it's too late for us with MPB!'

We just have to wait until this winter or Q1 of 2012.

As for the $5000 every 3 years thing. Even if it were that outrageous you probably wouldn't have to get the same procedure done every 3 years for the rest of your life since inevitably something better will come along. I still have hope in aderans/follica/replicel's technique of cloning DHT resistant hairs. It's working, they've shown that much. They're getting better and better too.

Thank god human genetics give us at least some DHT resistant hairs on our heads. Imagine if MPB involved a complete loss of all hair on the head. Then we'd all be royally screwed.

----------


## Dasani

> This all sounds great and all, but i started thinking it may just be too late for us men in the MPB process, i mean if it works the future generation will get the benefits of this and not us. I am only just starting to see i'm losing my hair, but by the time HSC comes out my hair isn't going to look so great and i will probably have bald areas by that time which gets me down because i could have been a few years off being able to get MPB under control with HSC.
> 
> And also why don't Histogen come on here say, once a month and just let us all know how things are going instead of making us all second guess about what might or might not be happening, after all it's just good business to let potential customers know what is going on.


 Hey with Propecia/Finasteride you have a ~90&#37; chance of not losing any hair or even regaining some for 5 years. I know there's a lot of talk out there surrounding the possible side effects. I've been using finasteride (1.25mg) for about 3 months now and I have had 0 side effects... so as long as this keeps up I hope it's effects last me until HSC or something else comes along.

----------


## Cory

Why will only future generations benefit from HSC, guys in safety trials didn't get bald over night and they did regrow hair from one injection it's too soon to make any assumptions about efficency and price.

We still don't know how long hair will last, neither does Histogen, and even if first treatment costs $5000, next one for keeping hair probably won't cost that much.

And what is Follica doing, topical, injection? I read that something about lithium gel.

----------


## lost.hair.lost.youth

> Idk if this is right but according to this conversion chart I found on the web it says 40 cm is about 16 in long so a 40cm^2 section would be 16in by 16in.... Idk how big ur head is but that should cover it


 No! That is wrong.

40 cm is different from 40 cm^2.
6 cm by 6 cm is 36 cm^2
The same principle goes for inches. 


I know this is terribly imprecise but, assuming you have a small frame and corresponding sized hands, 1 cm^2 is about the size of the nail of your small finger, the palm of your hand (excluding fingers) is about 70 cm^2.

And by the way, the average-full-head-of-hair person has about 100 hairs per cm^2.

I don't care how many injections you have to take, that is irrelevant for me. The important is that it works and if I can afford it.

http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#25

I don't get one thing, on the legend bellow the pic they say the baseline is 179 and they got +73% hairs. But on the graphics the baseline starts at 230?!!!


My stupidity led me to lose my hair. If I had started fin or minox 10 years ago I would probably had a full head of hair (or maybe if I had been unlucky I would be impotent... who knows).
I'm tired and desperate. 
In the next weeks I'll be investigating FUE. The good, the bad, and what I can expect of it.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Just to clear this up for a few people: Histogen's initial trials on small areas of scalp produced about 25FU/cm2. A bald scalp will need at least twice that.

----------


## Curlybill99

what if you can get two injections in the same location and the results will double this will be a for sure cure.. I heard they were testing this theory in the current clinical trials. hopefully we will find out soon.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> what if you can get two injections in the same location and the results will double this will be a for sure cure.. I heard they were testing this theory in the current clinical trials. hopefully we will find out soon.


 This is the question we've all been asking for some time now. If the answer is yes then the cure is here.

----------


## Curlybill99

They started the 2nd phase in june right? So shouldnt we see the 12 week data for this 2nd phase pretty soon.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I don't know. I do believe they'll have an update by November at the latest because there's a big biotech conference in China (Beijing I think) where they are to present about how human embryonic like proteins induce hair growth and induce apoptosis of cancer. Just to clarify the cancer part, inducing apoptosis will KILL off cancer cells. Seemingly different wnt proteins can cause cancer and others can kill off cancer. Or at least that's my understanding of it.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Where did you hear about Follica finishing up on Phase II?


 The Bald Truth Show on Sundays with Spencer Kobren! Usually when the show starts they share all the latest news on hair loss. Every week they start with all  updates, if any. It's really the only reason I watch the show. If there is any breaking news, most likely they will hear about it first.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> This all sounds great and all, but i started thinking it may just be too late for us men in the MPB process, i mean if it works the future generation will get the benefits of this and not us. I am only just starting to see i'm losing my hair, but by the time HSC comes out my hair isn't going to look so great and i will probably have bald areas by that time which gets me down because i could have been a few years off being able to get MPB under control with HSC.
> 
> And also why don't Histogen come on here say, once a month and just let us all know how things are going instead of making us all second guess about what might or might not be happening, after all it's just good business to let potential customers know what is going on.


 What the hell are you talking about? You haven't heard of HST? FUE and ACell? Aderans? Replicel? Follica? Even a NW7 has a potential future!

----------


## UK_

> What the hell are you talking about? You haven't heard of HST? FUE and ACell? Aderans? Replicel? Follica? Even a NW7 has a potential future!


 lol... seriously where did you hear about Follica finishing Phase II?  :Smile: 

You got a link to the website?

----------


## Curlybill99

If they have finished phase 2 they must have something good.. Lets start phase 3

----------


## UK_

> If they have finished phase 2 they must have something good.. Lets start phase 3


 Lol yh - I wanna see how their _Nirvana_ treatment worked lol.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> lol... seriously where did you hear about Follica finishing Phase II? 
> 
> You got a link to the website?


 Are you joking around or what? This is what they said in the show. I don't have a link, so its up to you whether you want to believe it or not. I'm just reporting what they said. I was hoping someone had more info on this as well. What curlybill 99 wrote is exactly what they said. They must have something.

----------


## UK_

I hope they've finished PhII successfully - back in 2008 they were going on as if the cure was around the corner.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> I hope they've finished PhII successfully - back in 2008 they were going on as if the cure was around the corner.


 I feel you man. I'm not sure where the trials are at but in the show they made it clear it was in Europe. They are finishing phase 2 in Europe, is what they said. 

It's easy not believe since Follica is very private with their shit but at the same time it can be very smart. For all we know, they might cone out with some heavy shit real soon. Do you know how long phase 3 trials usually last?

----------


## CVAZBAR

I beleve their compound is not a drug so I doubt the timeline is the same for a typical drug.

----------


## UK_

What happend to....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19239555

??? 

and....

http://www.phoenixbio.co.jp/en/activ...air/index.html

???

and...

http://www.biomaster.jp/web_site/eng...air/index.html

???

----------


## Curlybill99

I think i read somewhere phase 3 usually lasts the longest.. I hope they got something good that can hold us off till histogen breaks through. That would be nice.

----------


## UK_

PhIII will probably take 4 - 5 years if everything goes to plan.

----------


## RichardDawkins

I think till then, HST will become more wide spread, absolutely

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I don't think Phase III lasts nearly that long (4-5 years).

----------


## Jundam

Not sure how long it'll last but I remember reading that they don't even need to enter phase III before releasing it in Singapore or possibly Asia in its entirety due to looser regulations that only requires clinical trials to establish proof of concept and safety. Phase III would on the other hand be required for countries with stricter regulations such as US. 

Basically you can the treatment prior to completion of phase III but there's of course a little bit more risk to it. Things like dosage and injection technique is likely to be optimized during phase III as well as long term safety concerns to be further evaluated.

----------


## Cory

Replicel is doing same thing, testing only safety and efficency which will help them get treatment earlier, still if everything goes as planned for Histogen, it's still 2014. and there would be nothing while we wait unless Follica has something.

It's shame that in 2011 neither we have "cure" or efficient treatment.

----------


## Jundam

Definitely is. Hair loss is a worry I could do without. Still, I'm cautiously optimistic about the future, and that feels pretty good. Rather have a regular smile with an occasional frown than the other way around. Hope everybody else feels the same.

----------


## UK_

> I don't think Phase III lasts nearly that long (4-5 years).


 You're right actually - Aderans will finish PhII Q1 next year and state they will have a product ready for 2014.

In a recent statement Ken Washenik stated they are three years away.

----------


## UK_

> Replicel is doing same thing, testing only safety and efficency which will help them get treatment earlier, still if everything goes as planned for Histogen, it's still 2014. and there would be nothing while we wait unless Follica has something.
> 
> It's shame that in 2011 neither we have "cure" or efficient treatment.


 I have a lot of hope for Replicel - not least because it is headed by the great Rolf Hoffmann - who is truly putting nearly 20 years of research into a viable product.  

But apparently we dont need professionals according to Iron_Man.

----------


## stillinHS1994

> Not sure how long it'll last but I remember reading that they don't even need to enter phase III before releasing it in Singapore or possibly Asia in its entirety due to looser regulations that only requires clinical trials to establish proof of concept and safety. Phase III would on the other hand be required for countries with stricter regulations such as US. 
> 
> Basically you can the treatment prior to completion of phase III but there's of course a little bit more risk to it. Things like dosage and injection technique is likely to be optimized during phase III as well as long term safety concerns to be further evaluated.


 I think there will be quite an increase in bald passengers traveling on planes to asia in the next few years lol

----------


## Sogeking

> I have a lot of hope for Replicel - not least because it is headed by the great Rolf Hoffmann - who is truly putting nearly 20 years of research into a viable product.  
> 
> But apparently we dont need professionals according to Iron_Man.


 Me too. Ever since they were known as Trichoscience, their approach, efforts and the dermal sheath cup cells placement treatment. If I'm not mistaken, correct me if I am, thats partly the HST procedure. And since, according to some, HST works my money is on the Replicel  :Smile: .

Data from the first trial after the 6 months follow up will be available in quarter1 of 2012. I think that by the end of 2012 we will atleast see which future treatments are possible.

----------


## UK_

> If I'm not mistaken, correct me if I am, thats partly the HST procedure. And since, according to some, HST works my money is on the Replicel .


 I honestly [along with most others] do not have the information to agree/disagree with that comment.

I do believe HST works, its [proposed] efficacy in comparison to the work of Replicel is something I am dying to see.

----------


## Sogeking

> I honestly [along with most others] do not have the information to agree/disagree with that comment.
> 
> I do believe HST works, its [proposed] efficacy in comparison to the work of Replicel is something I am dying to see.


 Same here. Hairsite is full with those praising HST, however I am still sceptic and haven't decided if it is or isn't efficient.

----------


## Jundam

> I think there will be quite an increase in bald passengers traveling on planes to asia in the next few years lol


 Even if Histogen solves it(or solves it well enough) I still think the ones heading to Asia for treatment will be limited to the rich and the desperate. The others will save the money and wait for it to come closer to home. If it means I can stop Propecia sooner rather than later I'll gladly board an airplane though. I feel fine on it but I really hate using something that alters my hormones.

That said I might be underestimating our kind and we'll see new airline companies for the follicly challenge starting up with some clever slogan about shuttling us off to hairier life. On-flight movies limited to action flicks with Bruce Willis and Jason Statham on the way there, Brad Pitt and George Clooney romantic comedies on the way back. Oh sweet dreams.
Good night.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Nope they are not praising HST they only say whats up right now. And i agree with Gho supporters because those people also push the envelope because this is a signal for surgeons to investigate further into regenerative processes.

While traditional FUT mills live from people like this SPanishDude who always waters every thread down with pokemon dummy research stuff

----------


## UK_

> Nope they are not praising HST they only say whats up right now. And i agree with Gho supporters because those people also push the envelope because this is a signal for surgeons to investigate further into regenerative processes.
> 
> While traditional FUT mills live from people like this SPanishDude who always waters every thread down with pokemon dummy research stuff


 Fair enough - but everyone writes off UK Intercytex, their researchers still make comments about it being viable:




> Intercytex worked on methods to take a biopsy from the back of the head, isolate the dermal papilla cells and expand them in culture, and then inject them into the balding areas of the scalp. The goal is to grow enough cells in vitro to freeze for later booster treatments. A phase 2 study in the UK showed some efficacy, but difficulties growing cells limited the commercial viability. Thanks in part to a souring economy, Intercytex sold the project in 2010 to Aderans Research Institute, based in Marietta, Georgia, which was working on a similar therapy.
> 
> *“Everybody agrees that it's doable,” Kemp says. “The issue is getting the cells into the right location to talk to the keratinocytes and getting the keratinocytes into the right mood to listen.”*
> 
> Source: Raising Hairs (2011)


 They agree it can work... there are just issues that need ironing out...

----------


## stillinHS1994

> Even if Histogen solves it(or solves it well enough) I still think the ones heading to Asia for treatment will be limited to the rich and the desperate. The others will save the money and wait for it to come closer to home. If it means I can stop Propecia sooner rather than later I'll gladly board an airplane though. I feel fine on it but I really hate using something that alters my hormones.
> 
> That said I might be underestimating our kind and we'll see new airline companies for the follicly challenge starting up with some clever slogan about shuttling us off to hairier life. On-flight movies limited to action flicks with Bruce Willis and Jason Statham on the way there, Brad Pitt and George Clooney romantic comedies on the way back. Oh sweet dreams.
> Good night.


 Haha frickin hilarious....I would agree with fin though...the stuff just creeps me out for some reason

----------


## RichardDawkins

Uk i cant say anything about trichoscience because i simply dont know anything about them and i didnt focus my research on them sorry.

----------


## Thinning@30

I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I really wish Histogen would come out and confirm that they have indeed started the trials, or at least provide us with updated timeline.  My hair is looking pretty bad these days  :Frown: 

I don't understand the radio silence.  Even a few months ago they seemed to be demonstrating a refreshing and admirable level of openness and transparency.  Why can't they tell us whether the next phase of their trials has started as planned?

----------


## UK_

Dont worry about sounding like a broken record... We would love an update!!! lol

----------


## Curlybill99

An update about anything on histogen would be great.. Or maybe another interview with spencer nd Doc ziering lol.

----------


## UK_

130,000 people have viewed this thread alone - how many of those would pay even 30k for this technology?

----------


## UK_

> We report here that serially cultured adult papilla cells can induce the growth of hair when implanted into follicles which otherwise would not grow hairs. This finding presents an opportunity to characterize properties distinguishing the papilla cell population from other skin fibroblasts, and, more specifically, those which control hair growth. The eventual application of this work to human hair replacement techniques can also be envisaged.


 That was in 1984... why has it taken so long to even _try_ to see if it works?

----------


## stillinHS1994

> 130,000 people have viewed this thread alone - how many of those would pay even 30k for this technology?


 I will be a broke college student just getting a degree when this stuff is supposed to come out but I will definitely find a way to pay for stuff like this...having hair wen I'm 30 would be worth it

----------


## Losing_It

Nobody should go through University worrying about hair loss. University is a great place, with so many things to experience. I was lucky enough to make it to 30 with all my hair. I use to to think bald men were lucky, since they didn't have to worry about maintenance. I guess I was wrong. 

I am certain Histogen will be able to reproduce their pre-clinical results: 

Lets look at the results: 
1. 85 &#37; of those treated showed hair growth 
2. growth radiated 2mm from the injection point, so its well controlled 
3. the new hair was maintained at the two year follow up suggesting that it should last at least one cycle. 
4. existing hair were healthier than they were originally. 
5.  No adverse reaction even at the two year mark. 

What I am wondering though is why 15% of the patients didn't respond to the treatment. Could it be that a higher dosage would be the key for those patients? Histogen knows that they sitting on a gold mine and that revenue in hair restoration would fund their more important cancer research. 

Its all about reproducing their pre-clinical trials. If they achieve that, then we are all set.

----------


## CAlex

I remember reading or hearing Gail Naughton stating she was  some ridiculously high percent (95%) or something that sure they can reproduce the pre clinical results.

I think so many people rag on the whole 5 years away  heard that before thing because of so much past disappointments. I feel their pain. The difference between now and then was that was all over-hyped cure b.s. promises from rogaine and fin which we all know know is not even close to the case. All the other 5 year predictions were based off very early science that never panned out.

Histogen on the other hand has already created NEW hairs from scratch. Histogen may end up not even getting to market or working as good as many of us are hoping but AT least this is real science yielding real results so far. NOT just theory and 5 year predictions.

----------


## Losing_It

I completely agree with you Calex. This is a company that publishes in peer review journals. I think we can all agree that this is not Histogen's field, but merely trying to generate revenue for their other research. I have already accepted my fate in life, that i will loose my hair, so if HSC doesn't work out, oh well at least they tried. As long as I know that there are companies out there willing to pursue non-invasive techniques. I tried Propecia but after two months I couldn't deal with the sides anymore. 

I am fairly confident though that Histogen will be able to reproduce their results. The fact that their are at least four companies pursuing similar techniques, means that we are really close to something big. Just a matter of who gets to market first to reap the rewards.

----------


## Cory

Really hope that Histogen comes 2014 together with Follica and Replicel and puts end to baldness.

----------


## stillinHS1994

> Really hope that Histogen comes 2014 together with Follica and Replicel and puts end to baldness.


 Haha I think its safe to say we all hope for that

----------


## MrRyan

So i have read this thread through and it seems as though we can expect at least 50 hairs cm2 (if it works ) from Histogen, now i just looked at my scalp out of interest, i'm in the very early stages of hair loss and only i can notice it at this point although i'm not sure how much longer i will get away with it for. Anyway i took a rough count of my hair count and it doesn't seem like there are that many hairs per cm2, now a lot of you say that 200 cm2 is the normal amount on the scalp that seems like a hell of a lot to me am i missing something here or can you only count hairs properly with certain equipment.

And i know it's not very scientific, but i just drew a cm2 filled it with 200 dots and the thing was nearly coloured in, that would equate to a very very dense head of hair, even 50 seemed to fill in very nicely, please correct me if i'm way off i'm just interested thats's all.

----------


## S.W

> 130,000 people have viewed this thread alone - how many of those would pay even 30k for this technology?


 I certainly will if it does work. The idea of losing all my hair bothers me more than losing my job.

----------


## MrRyan

Yes there are a lot of us that would pay a years wage or remortgage the house to get their hair back, but remember it's one thing saying you will pay silly money and another thing actually getting it and going through with it. I mean what are you going to do rob a bank, rob your granny ? Yes you can get a loan, maybe, but if Histogen do end up having something that works they have to be very careful with their pricing or they will lose a lot of custom, and i think ethically they can make the price reasonable and accessible to all, and still have an unbelievable amount of wealth.

----------


## Jundam

> Yes there are a lot of us that would pay a years wage or remortgage the house to get their hair back, but remember it's one thing saying you will pay silly money and another thing actually getting it and going through with it. I mean what are you going to do rob a bank, rob your granny ? Yes you can get a loan, maybe, but if Histogen do end up having something that works they have to be very careful with their pricing or they will lose a lot of custom, and i think ethically they can make the price reasonable and accessible to all, and still have an unbelievable amount of wealth.


 I still think the 5000 USD guess sounds about right if it does indeed restore a full head of hair once it arrives on the market. I think the marketing research they do before release will show that if you go up to 10k or higher you lose too many customers and end up with less profit. Especially if it needs to be repeated at later stages to keep the result.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> 130,000 people have viewed this thread alone - how many of those would pay even 30k for this technology?


 Without a doubt I would pay 30K for it.  Not even a question.  A lot of people say that they won't get a hair transplant because of the cost.  I won't get one cus I don't want a smiley-face scar on the back of my head for the rest of my life.  So cost was never an issue for me.  But if a non-scarring treatment like Histogen's HSC complex worked, I would travel to the ends of the earth and pay whatever it costs to have a full head of hair again.

----------


## MrRyan

5 to 10 thousand pounds, sounds about right to me, because if whatever product they have costs too much to produce they wouldn't even bother with trying to market HSC, and they obviously are trying to do just that.

----------


## UK_

> Without a doubt I would pay 30K for it.  Not even a question.  A lot of people say that they won't get a hair transplant because of the cost.  I won't get one cus I don't want a smiley-face scar on the back of my head for the rest of my life.  So cost was never an issue for me.  But if a non-scarring treatment like Histogen's HSC complex worked, I would travel to the ends of the earth and pay whatever it costs to have a full head of hair again.


 Oh God yeah 30k without a doubt - it wouldn't just cure my hair loss but the dozen other disorders that come with lol - depression, confidence et al - 

What pisses me off is how someone like Dr Lee had his solutions taken down and idiots like bioregenerative sciences can carry on looting desperate customers.

Regardless, Minox is a joke when your genes decide its truly game over for your hair - so too is propecia - we need a solution that allows us to swim to shore instead of treading water.

----------


## UK_

Posted by whynot on Hairsite:

_http://www.stem-cell-regeneration.co...airgrowth.html_

It looks like some shitty version of PRP.

"We take fat and then inject fat into scalp for monies".

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Hey UK, I could give you some more detail on this since I actually called up the place that offers this.  This place is supposedly affiliated with the Peace Wellness Center in Arizona (www.stem-cell-center.com) which uses stem cells to treat a whole range of diseases.  What they told me was that at their center in AZ, they extract stem cells from your fat tissue and put them into the bald/balding areas of your scalp in order to stimulate hair growth.  This place is supposed to be their affiliate in the Philippines which supposedly uses WNT and Noggin (2 proteins responsible for the formation of a pit in the skin, telling stem cells to become hair as opposed to skin), which cannot be legally used in the U.S. since they're not cleared by the FDA.  I don't think adipose stem cells will do much to stimulate new hair growth.  It is an excellent idea to use WNT and Noggin to stimulate hair growth except I'm not sure if this is legit.  I really wonder how come some other countries do not attempt to use WNT and/or Noggin for hair regrowth since they're not bound by the restrictions of the FDA.  I know that Histogen is attempting to do that (and God bless them for that, really) but maybe even other countries could bypass extensive clinical trials and offer a WNT/Noggin treatment right now.  Anyway, I think they're offering something different to PRP.  PRP uses stem cells and growth factors generated from human blood, while this treatment is using stem cells from adipose (fat) tissue.  I personally don't think that it will work that great, but I really am interested in using WNT and Noggin to regrow hair.  If I was sure that it was legit, I'd sign up in a second, but as usual, I'm not sure that it is.

----------


## UK_

How did they extract/isolate/obtain the wnts?  Did you ask them this?

One of the most groundbreaking aspects of Histogen is how they have been able to actually obtain and isolate the very components needed to deliver the actual gene therapy.

----------


## lost.hair.lost.youth

Intercytex hair division was sold to some other compnay, but I don't recall which.

About the price, it's pure marketing. Just look at all products and services out there. First is very expensive then it gets cheaper. But I think the difference along time will not be much because there are competing services.
Some things to keep in mind:
- It's not a cure!!! It's a treatment that helps you get some hair back.
- It competes with surgical treatments, especially FUE. And we still don't know how they fare against each other.
- The process seems to be a lot less laborious than FUE. That means less man-hours of work involved in hair extraction and carefully positioning.
- Oh another thing I almost forgot, there those other companies also working on other treatments (like cell replication), so that means competition.
I suspect the price will be in the FUE range.
Like everyone else I'm looking forward for this, but let's keep our feet on the ground. This is 2-4 years away. How's your hair doing? Can it wait more?

Personally I'm thinking on doing FUE now (but have to do some research first) and in 3 or 4 years complement it with Histogen.
I'm so tired and depressed... I want to get a few of my youth years back.
This is even more depressing in these mass media days (tv and internet), where we're bombarded with notions of attractiveness that all of us must comply with. And if you don't have hair, you're old.


@ DepressedByHairLoss
1) regarding the scar involved with transplants: What is the problem with FUE?
2) about the WNT/Noggin treatment. AFAIK Histogen uses WNT proteins.

----------


## UK_

Sold to Aderans.

So true@ mass media lol, and you need the money to afford to look that great - what a great narcissistic empire we have built for the future generations.

----------


## UK_

Just hope Aderans can come up with something good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oQY...mbedded#at=475

----------


## Curlybill99

Hey do you think aderans can give you the same density that histogens are saying they can the 57 hairs per cm2. I know aderans says 79% more terminal hairs. I Wonder how much hairs they can give you in one cm2.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

@ UK - I really should've asked them how they obtained the WNT's.  They told me that the price of the WNT/Noggin treatment was almost 20 grand.  That kind of discouraged me, especially since they were unsure of any proven results.  But as I said before, if the treatment was proven, it would be more than well worth it for me to spend 20 grand to restore my hair.  Also, several medical labs sell WNT proteins.  For example: www.stemrd.com

@ lost.hair.lost.youth - There are many problems with FUE.  First, a few doctors even admitted to me that FUE does in fact cause scarring, when the hairs are yanked out from their original positions.  It may not scar to the extent that FUT does, but scarring is still scarring and I don't want to spend the rest of my life working to cover up a scarred head.  Also, I believe FUE only works to cover very small areas of hair loss.  I know that Histogen is using WNT's and God bless them for it.  I just want something in the interim until HSC is released.  I don't want to waste at least 3 more years struggling with thinning hair/baldness.

----------


## UK_

I wouldn't touch any of those 'products'.




> Although Sonic Hedgehog (shh) mutants have shown that there is a requirement for Shh in normal follicular growth, *recent studies have suggested that unregulated induction of epithelial Shh target genes promotes the formation of hair follicle tumors through its proliferative influences on hPr-like cells (Figure 3)*. If Shh target-gene induction is sufficient for the proliferation of hPr-like cells, then expression of Shh target genes should generate ectopic epithelium with follicular differentiation.  *Consistent with this notion, forced activation of Shh target genes in epithelium induces follicular tumors, the most clinically significant of which are BCCs (skin cancer)*. *These carcinomas are composed of cells that are ultrastructurally and immunophenotypically similar to hPr cells* and, thus, are the least differentiated of tumors derived from hair follicles [1,22,23]. Since the first studies that associated mutations in ptc1 with Gorlin Syndrome, an inherited susceptibility to BCC formation, analyses of sporadic BCCs have verified a link between activation of the Shh pathway, target-gene induction and BCC formation [24–26].


 Id firstly wait for approval and then see actual results - lol anyone handing over 20k on no evidence/basis deserves to lose it IMO.

----------


## UK_

I was reading of some research that was released in March this year (mouse model) where they were able to promote anagen through the shh pathway by using 'Polygonum multiflorum extract' (lol, I know):

*Abstract:* _In Polygonum multiflorum extract treated group, we observed increase in the number and the size of hair follicles that are considered as evidence for anagen phase induction. Immunohistochemical analysis revealed that earlier induction of -catenin and Shh were observed in Polygonum multiflorum extract treated group compared to that in control group._




> It is reported that THSG, an active compounds from Polygonum multiflorum, induced melanogenesis in melanocytes (Jiang et al., 2009), which suggested that it might promote hair growth by increasing anagen-phase hair follicles. In order to improve the bioavailability of Polygonum multiflorum extract, we produced Polygonum multiflorum extract after microbial fermentation using strains of Lactobacillus. Therefore, we investigated the hair growth promoting activity of the fermented Polygonum multiflorum extract using 7 week-old C57BL6/N mice which are in the stable telogen phase. The shaved back skins of C57BL6/N were treated with topical application of Polygonum multiflorum extract for 1, 2, 3, and 4 weeks. At 2 weeks, Polygonum multiflorum extract induced hair growth in the telogenic C57BL/6 mice, while neither less visible hair growth was observed in the control group. To further investigate the hair growth promoting effect, we plucked 10 hairs per mouse randomly from the treated area and measured the hair length. The hair length of Polygonum multiflorum extract treated mice was significantly longer than control group. Further, we will compare the hair promoting activity between Polygonum multiflorum water extract and fermented Polygonum multiflorum. If so, we will analyze the active compounds from each extract, which are responsible for the hair promoting activity. Various hormones, growth factors and development-related molecules are involved in hair follicle growth (Boivin et al., 2006; Datta et al., 2009; Stenn and Paus, 2001; Yamazaki et al., 1999). To trigger anagen onset, several activators must be expressed up to a critical threshold concentration. Among them, -catenin and Sonic hedgehog (Shh) expression play key regulators of hair follicular growth and cycling that act as anagen-inducing signaling molecules (Peters et al., 2002; Stenn and Paus, 2001). Induced -catenin expression was observed in the dermal papilla at anagen onset and also detected in the stem cell progeny in the hair matrix throughout anagen phase (Schneider et al., 2009). Shh mainly expressed during anagen phase. 
> 
> When catagen phase of hair follicles begins, Shh expression ceases and its expression is hard to detect in the telogen hairs (Oro and Higgins, 2003). To elucidate the molecular mechanism of Polygonum multiflorum extract in inducing anagen hair follicles, we examined the expression levels of -catenin and Sonic hedgehog (Shh) in the skin. Immunohistochemical analysis result showed that -catenin and Shh expression were up-regulated in Polygonum multiflorum extract treated group compared to that in control group at 2 weeks. Some studies showed that continuous -catenin signaling is required to maintain hair follicle tumors (Lo Celso et al., 2004). We observed that Shh and -catenin expression levels gradually began to reduce in both groups after 3 week (data not shown), indicating that anagen phase of hair follicles was ceased (Datta et al., 2009). Further experiments are needed to identify active components in fermented Polygonum multiflorum extracts and to determine their mechanisms of action, which might be responsible for the hair promoting activity. In summary, it was reported for the first time that Polygonum multiflorum extract promoted hair growth by inducing anagen in telogenic C57BL6/N mice. In Polygonum multiflorum extract treated group, we observed an increase in the number and the size of hair follicles that is considered as evidence for anagen phase induction. Immunohistochemical analysis revealed that -catenin and Shh were expressed earlier in Polygonum multiflorum extract treated group than that in control group. Taken together, these results suggest that Polygonum multiflorum extract promote hair growth by inducing anagen phase of hair follicles.


 Source:  Park, Zhang & Park, 2011.  Available here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78874111001644

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Although it has shown maybe that unregulated manipulation of the Shh pathway can cause cancer, I believe the chance that it can cause cancer is totally overblown.  I agree that we shouldn't be experimenting with it ourselves but tumors I believe can only arise if the Shh pathway is hit on constantly.  However, if it is transiently regulated, no tumors will occur and the potential for new hair growth is very real.  
I read the article too about polygonum multiflorum but I really don't believe that any of these all-natural herbs and nutraceutical remedies have any real potential to regrow hair or reverse miniaturization.  It's chemical proteins like WNT, Noggin, or BMP that possess real potential to regrow hair.  I know that Histogen is testing WNT proteins but I will some one would test Noggin or BMP.

----------


## Curlybill99

I really hope histogen can get 25% of hair every shot.. that would make my life a whole lot better.

----------


## Jundam

Still not sure why everybody talks about the amount of hair grown in pre-clinical safety trials as if it's anything but an indication of its potential. Histogen is going to try every possible way they can to increase that efficacy and the success rate of HSC before release because the amount of hair they grew in pre-clinical trials would never be worth marketing. At least not in my opinion. Too few men would pay a large amount of money to receive scalp injections that will grow cosmetically insignificant amount of hair. Especially if they need to get more than one set of injections. Some may still want it but I doubt it'd be enough of a profit in it to go through with phase III trials if they can't improve the results.

Besides there's no reason only some follicles would answer while others would not, assuming of course that they did indeed grow new hair as they said. I still believe that if they can wake up one follicle they can wake them all up. Just a matter of finding the best method to reach all of the follicles. Same thing with Replicel really. Different approach but the same basic idea applies. If you can bring one follicle back from the dead you can bring them all back.

----------


## CAlex

@Jundam

for one, Its a very high starting point(the preclinical growth data hsc showed) Even if they are only able to duplicate the density results, over a larger area of course, that would definitely be worth bringing to market.

Anyone who thinks 1/4 of natural density that lasts over 2 years(minimum) from a non invasive technique is not worth bringing to market has been drinking too much minoxodil IMO.

Obviously we would like more then 57 new hairs cm/2 but even that number  blows anything currently on the market out of the water by miles. this could be marketed so well. It would come with none of the ht stigma and im sure if the price is around 5 thousand that it would easily make it into the preventative market for young guys just noticing the slightest thinning who would rather play it safe and get the injections rather then risk to see where their hair loss might take them.

If I could get 57 new hairs cm/2 tomorrow I would drop out of university and use next years tuition money to pay for it without blinking. that density would make a world of difference on so many guys.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

25FU/cm2 of new hair is a damn good starting point. Consider a native density of 90FU/cm2. Let's say your hair has thinned all over to 30FU/cm2. If HSC fortifies the remaining 30FU/cm2 and gives you 25FU/cm2 of hair back then you're looking at 55FU/cm2. That would be a pretty dramatic change.

Even a bad scalp, norwood 6 could shoot for a decent head of hair (average 50FU/cm2 all over) with HSC and 6000 FUE. No need for a horrible smiley on the back of your head.

If the treatment ends up being more effective than 25FU/cm2 and even compounds then happy days. There is cause for optimism here guys.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

As I've said before, I really like what Histogen is doing and so do so many other people who so desperately want to regrow their hair but don't want permanent head scarring.  I believe some one on here earlier said that in some countries they may be able to market HSC Complex after Phase II since many of these countries don't have an organization like the FDA hounding them.  That would be an awesome idea!!  Many of us would absolutely jump at the chance to get the results that HSC Complex is achieving right now.  Also, with people paying to get the treatment before it completes Phase III, Histogen would have more money for more expansive clinical trials and to test different doses of WNT's and embryonic material that will ultimately comprise the final version of HSC Complex.  It would be a win-win situation for everyone involved.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Which do you think will dominate the market: Histogen's HSC or Aderans' Ji Gami? They both seem to be shooting for 2014.

Like Blu Ray vs. HD.  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

Histogen would rule Aderans.

----------


## Curlybill99

I also believe histogen will be better then aderans. But i would definitly get both if aderans would add more hair to what histogens could do.

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## Samiam

> Which do you think will dominate the market: Histogen's HSC or Aderans' Ji Gami? They both seem to be shooting for 2014.
> 
> Like Blu Ray vs. HD.


 LMAO this is stupid as f***, just last year it was the end of 2012. I mean is this ever gonna happen?

----------


## Samiam

And by this I mean any REAL cure or treatment

----------


## RichardDawkins

None, they will be simply overshadowed by a new transplant standard then sorry.

Also i can see the disclaimer there "Results may vary" which means "We dont care if you pay a few 1000 bucks and got no hair"

----------


## CAlex

LOL at a new transplant standard.

Surgically implanting hairs will NEVER be able to match anything close to normal densities or the normal growth patterns. Transplanted hairs look horrible and do not look or feel natural.

Obviously Histogen wouldn't have a grow 57 hairs per cm/2 sign or your money back but im sure if you got very low results you would be compensated either through more injections or some money back. If not word would spread and it would go from a legitimate treatment to snake-oil salesman scam fairly quickly.

----------


## Jundam

> ...........


 You're just blinded by your own desperation as evidenced by your notion that hair is worth more to you can a university education. I'm not saying there's not a lot of guys out there with your mindset, just saying there are not enough. Especially in the current economic climate. I believe the current HSC trial being conducted landed on 15 million for phase A and B and phase III is bound to last longer and be far more extensive. If they can't guarantee cosmetically significant results then it'll most likely not be worth it. 

Don't get me wrong, I believe in Histogen. I believe if they can replicate the results from the pre-clinical trials then by the time they reach the market they will have increased efficacy exponentially.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I think I'd pay $5000 but not a lot more. Especially if you had to get more shots every 5 years or so. It would be nice to have a full head of hair but realistically I couldn't spunk stupid money on it.

----------


## UK_

I am sure Ken Washenik stated in an interview in 2010 that with Aderans' procedure you could theoretically achieve more hair than you were actually born with.

----------


## Jundam

> I am sure Ken Washenik stated in an interview in 2010 that with his compound you could theoretically achieve more hair than you were actually born with.


 I still have a hard time believing anything Bosley has a hand in will turn out with a competent result. That said I'm still rooting for anybody trying to solve our problem.

----------


## UK_

> I still have a hard time believing anything Bosley has a hand in will turn out with a competent result. That said I'm still rooting for anybody trying to solve our problem.


 I know man... Intercytex had great PHI results and look how they ended up.

----------


## Dasani

> I am sure Ken Washenik stated in an interview in 2010 that with Aderans' procedure you could theoretically achieve more hair than you were actually born with.


 That would be great. I can imagine a future where all men have perfect, thick full NW0 hair and fixing your hair is as routine and common as getting orthodontics in the US.

I myself have just recently begun to notice thinning in my crown, and of course when I first realized this I did have a bit of a freak out. But I immediately got on minox and finasteride and I can already see significant improvement. I'm young and my hair loss is just starting. I really hope improved treatments like these come along soon before the effects of minox+fin start to deteriorate. Crossing my fingers and hoping for 2014 to be the year!

----------


## CAlex

@Jundam. 

hair right now is worth more to me then taking a year off school without question. I could go back to school at anytime but I cant get my youth back. 

I dont get how more then one person here is saying hsc current density is not worth bringing to market. 1/4 natural density is a lot. If it is an injectable product they wont need to charge an arm and a leg because it would be able to be such a widespread distribution network. Every ht doc, dermatologist, plastic surgeon would line up and pay a fee to be able to offer the treatment.

the hairs from the trial are still  working 2 years out. You *wouldn't* have to get this treatment over and over and over throughout your life.

AS science and the understanding about how to regenerate follicles continues a better treatment may come along say 5-10 years after hsc release. ITS NOT like if histogen comes to market all research into hairloss would stop.

57 new hairs per cm/2 would change my life completely. I still just can not wrap my head around so many people believing 57/cm2 is not significant.

----------


## HairTalk

Dr. Ziering, please provide an update to Histogen's trial on H.S.C.

----------


## Jundam

> @Jundam. 
> 
> hair right now is worth more to me then taking a year off school without question. I could go back to school at anytime but I cant get my youth back. 
> 
> I dont get how more then one person here is saying hsc current density is not worth bringing to market. 1/4 natural density is a lot. If it is an injectable product they wont need to charge an arm and a leg because it would be able to be such a widespread distribution network. Every ht doc, dermatologist, plastic surgeon would line up and pay a fee to be able to offer the treatment.
> 
> the hairs from the trial are still  working 2 years out. You *wouldn't* have to get this treatment over and over and over throughout your life.
> 
> AS science and the understanding about how to regenerate follicles continues a better treatment may come along say 5-10 years after hsc release. ITS NOT like if histogen comes to market all research into hairloss would stop.
> ...


 I think part of the problem here is that you think 25% of density will come in evenly covering the scalp. My issue with this is that if they cannot activate all the follicles then they cannot expect to activate the right follicles to cover your head either. You may very well end up with bits and pieces of your scalp with a lot of hair and the rest with small thinning spots like you were suffering from a disease far worse than male pattern baldness.

Also 2 years out is not enough to make a judgement call on whether or not it works long-term. At best all we can say is that it has the potential for lasting up to 2 years.

----------


## CAlex

All we currently know is that with 1 SINGLE injection they have managed to grow more new hairs then ever before in history, and these hairs have been growing for over 2 years. I choose to look at that as a positive sign but if some choose to see it as no big deal that is their right.

 Until histogen release phase 2 results this is all just speculation.

----------


## Jundam

> All we currently know is that with 1 SINGLE injection they have managed to grow more new hairs then ever before in history, and these hairs have been growing for over 2 years. I choose to look at that as a positive sign but if some choose to see it as no big deal that is their right.
> 
>  Until histogen release phase 2 results this is all just speculation.


 That was my initial point. :P

Don't worry though, I'm not trying to be negative or dampen anyone's spirits, I want this to work as badly as everybody else here. And I think it will work. My initial point was actually that I think it will work far better than it currently does and that's why there's no point in arguing about what we know so far. As I have stated before if you can resurrect one hair you can resurrect them all. The trick is just finding the optimal method to reach all, or at least the vast majority, of the follicles.

----------


## still_in_denial

> I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I really wish Histogen would come out and confirm that they have indeed started the trials, or at least provide us with updated timeline.  My hair is looking pretty bad these days 
> 
> I don't understand the radio silence.  Even a few months ago they seemed to be demonstrating a refreshing and admirable level of openness and transparency.  Why can't they tell us whether the next phase of their trials has started as planned?


 Hey guys I had emailed Histogen to find out about the clinical trials and when they would start, this is the reply I received. 

Thank you for your continued interest. Although HSC continues to progress, we are not releasing any details about the Singapore clinical trial at this time. We do look forward to sharing the preliminary results of that trial in the coming months.

Thank you, and hope you are well.
Eileen

Does anyone think this means we should have some news really soon like this year or maybe early next year?

----------


## stillinHS1994

As long as it comes within the next yr and its good news that's all I care about

----------


## VictimOfDHT

No indication it's coming out in a year...or two... or three.

----------


## Jundam

Q1 2012 will probably be the time for both Replicel and Histogen to release their current clinical trial data. Should be exciting or heart-breaking...

----------


## Sogeking

> Q1 2012 will probably be the time for both Replicel and Histogen to release their current clinical trial data. Should be exciting or heart-breaking...


 Agreed. Their silence means they have started with their Phase  I/II trials and they won't be divulging any information until its over.  So we will have to wait for results i believe they'll come in first but more likely second quarter of 2012.
Then we will know if our hope is well placed.
Let us hope it is.

I doubt we will hear anything from Dr. Ziering until those trials are finished since he has nothing to report. Be it bad or good.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I think it's possible they might give us a small insight into the trials in November without going into great detail just to pique investor and consumer interest.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I guess I agree with lots of people posting on here to a certain degree.  I can't wait to see another update from Histogen either, but at the time, as long as they're progressing smoothly, then I won't push for an update either.  My main issue now is to see if they would maybe allow the treatment that they currently have to be available to people after Phase II.  This would be a win-win situation for everyone.  Hell, maybe Spencer could even arrange with Dr. Ziering for a few of us on here to try this treatment (overseas of course).  I wouldn't hesitate to pay several thousand dollars for this treatment, and they could use the revenue that they take in to perfect HSC complex even further.  Obviously the final results after Phase III are gonna be better than what they have now, but people like myself would gladly take 57 hairs per square centimeter any day of the week, because it's exponentially better than what we have now.  And if people see the positive results that an initial version of HSC Complex produces, then more investors will line up to invest in something that will make loads of money.  Then they would have even more resources to work towards achieving an optimal product after Phase III.  BTW, thank God they're doing these clinical trials outside the U.S. and Canada.  Allergan is in the early stages of developing bimatoprost as a means to stimulate hair growth and they already have the FDA up their asses in a major way.  I guess why I'm so eager for some version of HSC Complex to be released is that we have so very few (and ineffective) options out there to treat hair loss.  And as a side note, I can't get over the fact how so many doctors only offer these hair transplants yet most people don't even want them in the first place!!  Anyway, as I've said before, I like Histogen's HSC Complex the best out of any of the treatments in the pipeline.  First off, it is the least invasive of them and stimulates hair growth from within.  Replicel and Aderans rely on extracting a small slice of hairs, cloning some version of them, and then re-injecting some version of them back into the scalp.  Follica has some great knowledge with Cotsarelis heading the company, but I was discouraged when I found out that they are using Lithium to stimulate hair regrowth.  Lithium is only a very weak WNT agonist.  Why not use actual WNT's rather than a weak agonist of them?  So this is why I have the most confidence in Histogen and in what they're doing.  It just really pisses me off that none of these big pharmaceutical companies (who have all the money in the world) don't even bother to do anything to treat or cure hair loss.

----------


## HairTalk

I think many of us simply are curious to whether Histogen's yet begun experimenting on subjects for its trial on H.S.C., or still is only in the phase of recruitment.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I'm pretty sure that they've already started experimenting.  I don't think they had to recruit that many people, plus I don't think they'd have a hard time recruiting people.  Hell, I'd jump at the chance to be in their trials.

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## HairTalk

> I'm pretty sure that they've already started experimenting.  I don't think they had to recruit that many people, plus I don't think they'd have a hard time recruiting people.  Hell, I'd jump at the chance to be in their trials.


 It's not a matter of whether persons would be willing to participate (and, your own eagerness doesn't indicate whether they would); it's a question of whether those who volunteer are suitable to Histogen.

I'd still like to know whether recruitment has been completed and actual testing has commenced.

----------


## Losing_It

> It's not a matter of whether persons would be willing to participate (and, your own eagerness doesn't indicate whether they would); it's a question of whether those who volunteer are suitable to Histogen.
> 
> I'd still like to know whether recruitment has been completed and actual testing has commenced.


 If I understood correctly, Phase 1 would enroll forty patients whilst Phase 2 would enroll 200 patients. There was some speculation that  if all goes to plan they could launch the product after Phase 2, but I am not certain if this is actually the case or not. Anyways we will find out on their results in the next few months. All they need to do is build on their 57 cm2, and if they can prove that it reverses miniaturization in existing hair, than Bob's your Uncle. Reversing miniaturization with some regrowth even at 57cm2 is in my opinion ground breaking. For many people, maybe not for people on a high norwood scale, this will be enough. But you can supplement with transplants etc. 

One thing is for sure, the race is on for a viable solution and the revenue in hair restoration

----------


## MrRyan

I think that they really should launch HSC after the phase II trials even if this product just keeps hair that would be enough for me at this stage, it will benefit them for so many reasons, the revenue generated would be massive and would give them more than enough money to get this thing FDA approved and available in the U.S, and we all know that is where the big money is for them. I mean after phase II we will know it's safe that's the main thing for them at the minute right, if they don't there will be so many like me just starting to lose their hair now, but by the time it would be ready after phase three trials my hair will most likely be a mess because i, like so many other people don't want to take Propecia or even apply minox, i'm just trying to stay healthy with vitamins diet and exercise.

I mean really they have a product that they could release right now that would make a difference to millions of men and women, i know it sounds impatient, but seriously is there any reason not to go to market with this it's a win win all round what could they possibly gain from holding out, at the end of the day they will say phase three will refine the product, but isn't that always going to be the case it's always going to be improved upon after trials have long gone, i just hope they have some empathy and listen to what we all want after all we are the ones that will be spending our hard earned cash on this thing.

----------


## MrRyan

And another thing why the hell is HSC not all over the media, i mean this is huge unprecedented news why are they not all over this thing, or do you think it will start to spark more interest after phase II trials, because to be honest i just don't get it. The more media attention the more money for Histogen i think they really need to start getting some interest in this thing if they do infact have what they say they have, it will fund their efforts and help get the result we are all hoping for.

And i do think that someone from Histogen should just come on here and give us a quick update as to what is happening it only takes a minute to be fair the silence worries me, some people are on these forums a lot i try not to come on here to often as it depresses me, we just need facts so we know where we stand not just us speculating what might or might not happen.

----------


## Bronson

I realize everyone is anxious about the release date but I'm far more worried about the safety.  I wish they'd do trials with 1,000 people instead of 200.  Remember, people have only recently discovered serious (and possibly irreversible) problems with Propecia and that's been out, what, 10 years?  Not to mention hundreds of thousands of guys had to take that stuff before they discovered the 1-2% that were having major problems.  It's not like we all have very similar genes, there's a lot of variation out there.  If they find a 1-2% horrible side effects rate with histogen I'll probably pass.

----------


## Losing_It

Maybe, its best they not all over the media right now, since if they fail then its better for them. Imagine if they hype it up and fails then their would be less faith from investors to pump money into their other technologies. Well if they manage to get really positive Phase 2 data, then they could spend money on marketing the product, but for now the risk is to big to take. One thing for sure though even if they manage to halt further hair loss and you need to take an injection after every 3-5 years, that is still better than propecia. 

85&#37; of patients responded well in the pre-clinical so its a no brainer that they would reproduce this result.

I don't think we will get any feedback until they have results. They playing their cards close to their chest. We will have to wait till next year.

----------


## Losing_It

> I realize everyone is anxious about the release date but I'm far more worried about the safety.  I wish they'd do trials with 1,000 people instead of 200.  Remember, people have only recently discovered serious (and possibly irreversible) problems with Propecia and that's been out, what, 10 years?  Not to mention hundreds of thousands of guys had to take that stuff before they discovered the 1-2% that were having major problems.  It's not like we all have very similar genes, there's a lot of variation out there.  If they find a 1-2% horrible side effects rate with histogen I'll probably pass.


 The only possible serious side effect HSC could have would be the development of cancer, but in my understanding of how HSC is engineered is that the Wnt 5a protein and growth factors, which has been associated with cancer development are eliminated. In the pre-clinical there were no adverse reactions at the 1 and 2 year follow up. With propecia who know the side effects within the first few days of taking it. 

My only worry is whether they would be able to reproduce the pre-clinical results and improve on that. I wouldn't worry about side effects now, we live in such a polluted world anyways that we get exposed to pathogens on a daily basis. Just think of all those drug resistant bacteria, because of the overuse of antibiotics. Leading a healthy lifestyle won't guarantee that you won't die of some form of cancer that wasn't so prevalent 50 years ago.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

We really don't need to worry about cancer if it makes it through phase 2. I believe Histogen are more interested in developing a wnt protein approach to *fighting* cancer by inducing cell apoptosis than HSC. However HSC is an important product in the company pipeline which can help to fund further cancer research.

For sure it won't be released in the US (FDA) or Europe (EMA) until it has passed phase 3. Seems like Aderans Ji Gami could be out first in the US and Europe. They're still shooting for 2014 to be finished with phase 3 and on the market. Their timeline seems a little more realistic to me anyway.

----------


## Samiam

> However HSC is an important product in the company pipeline which can help to fund further cancer research


 If they're trying to cure cancer I'm all for them but you can't be telling me this is just some little side project. I mean there should be a company with their full focus on finding out how to cure the genetic defect in MPB, or make a treatment that lets you grow all your hairs back. But like I said if their main goal is getting rid of cancer I'm still rooting for them.

----------


## Sogeking

> I realize everyone is anxious about the release date but I'm far more worried about the safety.  I wish they'd do trials with 1,000 people instead of 200.  Remember, people have only recently discovered serious (and possibly irreversible) problems with Propecia and that's been out, what, 10 years?  Not to mention hundreds of thousands of guys had to take that stuff before they discovered the 1-2% that were having major problems.  It's not like we all have very similar genes, there's a lot of variation out there.  If they find a 1-2% horrible side effects rate with histogen I'll probably pass.


 I agree with everything said here. There is a reason for phase III. However although cancer is the worst possible side effect the usage of proteins for fighting cancer by inducing cell apoptosis might have different reactions.

----------


## UK_

> If they're trying to cure cancer I'm all for them but you can't be telling me this is just some little side project. I mean there should be a company with their full focus on finding out how to cure the genetic defect in MPB, or make a treatment that lets you grow all your hairs back. But like I said if their main goal is getting rid of cancer I'm still rooting for them.


 The thing is, with baldness [lol]... the more you research the disorder the more you realise how complicated an issue it really is.  I mean you're talking of trying to generate [create] in the lab or in human scalp tissue over 15,000 separate organs with a multitude of interconnected dynamics, a host of complex pathways that govern a cyclical pattern of growth/rest/shed like clockwork... organs that have been stated to be more complex than some of our more important ones.

It really is a tough road... and to be honest... I dont wish to be a downer here but *the more I delve into the years of research the more I feel the 'better treatment' will come from an evolution of transplantation as opposed to a one-shot miracle injection like HST.*

Regardless, for those of you who have just started thinning, count yourselves lucky, Samiam I believe you're still in your teens - when I was your age there was literally NOTHING and I mean NOTHING going on... it was a real dark age where one literally only had the choice of either turning to Minoxidil or a hair transplant surgeon you could never review properly.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> If they're trying to cure cancer I'm all for them but you can't be telling me this is just some little side project. I mean there should be a company with their full focus on finding out how to cure the genetic defect in MPB, or make a treatment that lets you grow all your hairs back. But like I said if their main goal is getting rid of cancer I'm still rooting for them.


 Au contraire thankfully. As it is such an important product in their pipeline it has to be a success for them to fund, research and grow in order to develop new anti cancer drugs. I think in this instance it works in our favour.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> The thing is, with baldness [lol]... the more you research the disorder the more you realise how complicated an issue it really is.  I mean you're talking of trying to generate [create] in the lab or in human scalp tissue over 15,000 separate organs with a multitude of interconnected dynamics, a host of complex pathways that govern a cyclical pattern of growth/rest/shed like clockwork... organs that have been stated to be more complex than some of our more important ones.
> 
> It really is a tough road... and to be honest... I dont wish to be a downer here but *the more I delve into the years of research the more I feel the 'better treatment' will come from an evolution of transplantation as opposed to a one-shot miracle injection like HST.*
> 
> Regardless, for those of you who have just started thinning, count yourselves lucky, Samiam I believe you're still in your teens - when I was your age there was literally NOTHING and I mean NOTHING going on... it was a real dark age where one literally only had the choice of either turning to Minoxidil or a hair transplant surgeon you could never review properly.


 I agree and disagree to a certain degree.  Although it may be a bit complex, I don't think that it's nearly as complex as it's made out to be.  Although hair is considered an organ, it's not nearly as complex to create hair as it is to create other organs like a heart, lungs, or liver.  Hell, even ineffective products like minoxidil and finasteride can create hair and those weren't even meant to in the first place.  I believe that there has not be a cure/effective treatment for hair loss because not even people are trying to cure it.  I am so glad that we have companies like Histogen, Follica, and Replicel, but those are the exceptions.  If we had even a total of ten companies trying to develop cures for hair loss then maybe we would have something by now.  Some of the pathways that affect hair loss have been identified such as WNT and sonic hedgehog.  And certain chemicals have been identified to stimulate hair growth such as Noggin and BMP.  I am so glad that Histogen is experimenting with WNT proteins , but if other companies experimented with the sonic hedgehog pathway to stimulate hair growth or Noggin, then I would be a hell of a lot for confident that something will soon be developed to combat hair loss.  Hell, we have minoxidil and finasteride now (which are really sorry and ineffective options, IMO) but those weren't even made to combat hair loss in the first place, people just saw that they did minimal things for hair loss as a side effect.  So the people who developed minox and fin weren't even trying to cure hair loss in the first place.  If we had more companies and people doing things to cure hair loss (and in humans, NOT MICE) then maybe we would have something more effective by now.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

I don't believe it's that complicated either. If the ****ers spent more time figuring out how to clone hair instead of cloning sheep and mice we would've put an end to this curse (hair loss) long time ago.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

To create one new hair is simple. They've done this already. Embedding dermal papillae can create a fully functioning hair follicle. This is pretty much the route Cooley and Aderans are both exploring. Trying to do this on the scale of 25,000-30,000 hairs may not be so easy, I don't know. Ultimately I believe it will be a case of extracting and multiplying dermal papillae from the donor and embedding them. Refined hairlines my have to be FUE/HST though or perhaps not. Who knows at this point.

----------


## Samiam

> To create one new hair is simple. They've done this already. Embedding dermal papillae can create a fully functioning hair follicle. This is pretty much the route Cooley and Aderans are both exploring. Trying to do this on the scale of 25,000-30,000 hairs may not be so easy, I don't know. Ultimately I believe it will be a case of extracting and multiplying dermal papillae from the donor and embedding them. Refined hairlines my have to be FUE/HST though or perhaps not. Who knows at this point.


 I might sound stupid, excuse me I'm young , but if you can create one fully functioning hair follicle, why would it be so much harder to do it again 25,000-30,000 times.

----------


## GBB

> Hey guys I had emailed Histogen to find out about the clinical trials and when they would start, this is the reply I received. 
> 
> Thank you for your continued interest. Although HSC continues to progress, we are not releasing any details about the Singapore clinical trial at this time. We do look forward to sharing the preliminary results of that trial in the coming months.
> 
> Thank you, and hope you are well.
> Eileen
> 
> Does anyone think this means we should have some news really soon like this year or maybe early next year?


 Oh, good! This is at least _something_. I had begun to worry that they had almost closed shop...:P I think Q1 next year will be the time to watch out for.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> I might sound stupid, excuse me I'm young , but if you can create one fully functioning hair follicle, why would it be so much harder to do it again 25,000-30,000 times.


 I think it could be an issue of efficiency, consistency, quality and growth direction. Dr. Cooley has to use a lot of plucked hairs to create new ones. The success rate is not so high but it's getting better. It just seems not to work every time unfortunately. Same can be said of HST, not every graft provides adequate dermal papillae. As yet we do not know the efficiency and consistency of the cell based approaches. We know Aderans and Replicel have had some success but we don't know much else. Maybe they multiply a load of DP or DSC and only say 10 or 20% that are injected form fully functioning cosmetic hair follicles. It could be much higher and more efficient but we just don't know at this stage.

Of course one day it will be well refined.

----------


## UK_

> Oh, good! This is at least _something_. I had begun to worry that they had almost closed shop...:P I think Q1 next year will be the time to watch out for.


 I know... Thank GOD... 

I dont know what lengths i'd go to get my hands on a treatment like this - i'd sell my house, my car everything for one shot even if it gives me 5 years.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I totally hear ya; I would spend ridiculous amounts of money to get back my full head of hair; or even get enough hair back so that I can look good in photos again.  I would absolutely trade anything for a full head of hair.  My job, my car, my nice apartment...........I would trade all of that in a second to have my hair back, and I wouldn't even think twice about it.

----------


## Kiwi

> I don't believe it's that complicated either. If the ****ers spent more time figuring out how to clone hair instead of cloning sheep and mice we would've put an end to this curse (hair loss) long time ago.


 The desperation is almost visible. It's like I could reach out and touch it.

To say that a cure for balding is not complicated is just a nieve and stupid. To say that the scintists spend too much time testing this stuff on mice is unbelievably out of touch with reality.

----------


## Losing_It

I don't know about giving up everything to my hair back. Its better to be bald with a roof over your head, than to be homeless with hair. It won't help me one bit at that stage. I too like many here would like to get all my hair back but not if I have to lose everything else first. Maybe I will take out a loan and pay an installment each month or dip into my savings. But the cost shouldn't be too prohibitive. HTs already are expensive and there is no guarantee that you will be happy with the result. HSC if it delivers on its promise should be in the range of us normal people otherwise it will only benefit a few and bankrupt the rest.   

We have already seen some results in the pre-clinical whether they can build on those results we will have to see. In science 1 is not a pattern. It is about replicating those results. I tried to do a web search for Singapore clinical trials to see what Histogen's safety and efficacy end points are for HSC in the PHase 1/2, with no luck. I could only get to their Clinical Trial website but it doesn't have any information about current clinical trials being conducted in the country. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Isurely wouldnt pay everything for those injection. I wont get those researchers on this track :-) i would pay a fair amount for this and thats it but i wouldnt lose my whole life to get back hair, thats ridiculous

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> The desperation is almost visible. It's like I could reach out and touch it.
> 
> To say that a cure for balding is not complicated is just a nieve and stupid. To say that the scintists spend too much time testing this stuff on mice is unbelievably out of touch with reality.


 It's not unbelievably out of touch with reality, it's the truth.  I could literally name you over 100 scientists who have tested hair loss theories and chemicals on mice, but have never done anything to apply these theories and chemicals for human use.  Fact is that there is disproportionally high number of scientists who only test on mice, but there are only a handful who work to develop hair regrowth applications to benefit humans.  That is a glaring fact that is wrong with the pharmaceutical and research communities.  But I really don't wanna sound repetitive here; I've elaborated on this fact in other posts.  Thank God Craig Ziering is developing something that will hopefully benefit us all very soon.  I have nothing but immense respect for Dr. Ziering.  I just hope that Histogen will make the current version of their HSC Complex available in certain countries after Phase II.  That would be a dream come true for me and a win-win situation for all those involved.

----------


## Kiwi

> It's not unbelievably out of touch with reality, it's the truth.  I could literally name you over 100 scientists who have tested hair loss theories and chemicals on mice, but have never done anything to apply these theories and chemicals for human use.  Fact is that there is disproportionally high number of scientists who only test on mice, but there are only a handful who work to develop hair regrowth applications to benefit humans.  That is a glaring fact that is wrong with the pharmaceutical and research communities.  But I really don't wanna sound repetitive here; I've elaborated on this fact in other posts.  Thank God Craig Ziering is developing something that will hopefully benefit us all very soon.  I have nothing but immense respect for Dr. Ziering.  I just hope that Histogen will make the current version of their HSC Complex available in certain countries after Phase II.  That would be a dream come true for me and a win-win situation for all those involved.


 You can't see the forest through the trees my friend. And you do sound repetitive. Very very repetitive.

Think about it. If it was easy then one of those 100 scientists would have taken their theory, or their working concept (well working on a mouse), and they would have done it by now. They would have done it because they would get unbelievably rich and we would have hair. 

But guess what, its not easy. If it was there would be 100 odd really really really really rich scientists right now. Richer then what they could be paid off to keep it silent - so it wouldnt happen like that either.

I also get the feeling that in some weird strange, totally bizarre, odd, terrible, frakensteinish, and almost inhuman way, you are suggesting that scientists should bypass the lab rat and try out "theories" on humans?

Dude... WTF... Anyway I totally agree with you. Histogen are hopefully the answer we've all been waiting for  :Smile:

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> You can't see the forest through the trees my friend. And you do sound repetitive. Very very repetitive.
> 
> Think about it. If it was easy then one of those 100 scientists would have taken their theory, or their working concept (well working on a mouse), and they would have done it by now. They would have done it because they would get unbelievably rich and we would have hair. 
> 
> But guess what, its not easy. If it was there would be 100 odd really really really really rich scientists right now. Richer then what they could be paid off to keep it silent - so it wouldnt happen like that either.
> 
> I also get the feeling that in some weird strange, totally bizarre, odd, terrible, frakensteinish, and almost inhuman way, you are suggesting that scientists should bypass the lab rat and try out "theories" on humans?
> 
> Dude... WTF... Anyway I totally agree with you. Histogen are hopefully the answer we've all been waiting for


 
Wow, you are just completely misunderstanding what I'm saying.  Of course a potential hair regrowth treatment should be tested on mice first, no question about it.  No one's arguing that.  The problem I have is that after these potential treatments are shown to regrow hair on mice, then at least 90% of them aren't even tested on humans.  There are so many patented methods for increasing hair regrowth (BMP's, Noggin, Thymosin B4, Ephrin A3, N-WASP, laminin-511, lgr5) that have already been proven to regrow hair in mice, yet none of these are even attempted to be tested on humans.  These chemicals after all could represent the cure that we're all waiting for but they're just left to sit there languishing on the vine.  
I've heard that argument before that if a cure for baldness was found, then the scientist who discovered it would make millions, and that would be an incentive for them to find a cure for baldness.  But if that was the case, then why wouldn't more scientists be even trying to cure baldness, instead of only 4 companies!!  I wouldn't mind it so much if some of the treatments that have been proven to regrow hair in mice would've been tested on humans.  Even if they failed, at least I'd know that more scientists are trying to cure baldness rather than spending all their time recommending ineffective stuff like Rogaine, Propecia, and hair transplants.  
But whatever, I've argued this stuff before and I'm not gonna continue to argue it.  This topic is dedicated to Histogen's HSC Complex and to encouraging Dr. Ziering and Dr. Naughton to continue to develop this complex so that it will hopefully regrow hair for us all.  I really commend them for what they're doing; if more doctors and scientists were like them, then I would be more confident that a cure for baldness will come sooner rather than later.  And as I've said before, I'd really like to encourage Drs. Ziering and Naughton to make the current version of HSC Complex available to people in Far Eastern countries after Phase II is done.  So many of us would jump at the chance to try out what they have got so far (since their current results are exponentially better than what we have now) and it would generate money for them to devote to perfecting their final version of HSC Complex.  As I've said before, it would be a win-win situation for everyone involved.

----------


## Curlybill99

I agree with that they should definitly make it available after phase 2. They could always come out with a better version of hsc if they figure out a better mix in phase 3. If they put it on the market after phase 2 everyone will jump to get this product they will be extremely rich before phase 3.

----------


## Dasani

So I'm going to assume Histogen is currently busy with their clinical trails in Singapore. Anyone have any predictions for when they will publicly announce their findings? Didn't someone say there is a large conference sometime this fall that Histogen is presenting at?

----------


## CAlex

This thread is like 101 pages too long lol I dont think we will get any phase 2 data for about  6 months to a year from today. Mid 2012. 

Clinical Trials just very so much in how long each phase can take so all of us are just throwing estimates around in the dark. If it passes trials it could be on the market anywhere between 2013 all the way out to 2018 in the United States 

some phase 3 trials are more then 5 years alone. Only Histogen really knows how many hoops they have to jump through. it would be great to get  just confirmation that Phase 2 is underway.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

Kiwi, shut up and **** off, and don't try to be smart. And learn how to spell.

----------


## Kiwi

> Kiwi, shut up and **** off, and don't try to be smart. And learn how to spell.


 I'm not going anywhere chump. I'm totally sick of you kiddies crying about how the scientists are evil and how they are holding something back from us.

Get a grip. This thread is about future cutting edge treatments not conspiracy theories and hairy mice.

 Our best chances are histogen, aderans, cooley, and Gho...

----------


## Dasani

> I'm not going anywhere chump. I'm totally sick of you kiddies crying about how the scientists are evil and how they are holding something back from us.
> 
> Get a grip. This thread is about future cutting edge treatments not conspiracy theories and hairy mice.
> 
>  Our best chances are histogen, aderans, cooley, and Gho...


 I completely support Kiwi here. I'm more interested in talking about the big 4 and timelines for improved treatments not scientist-bashing by people whom I'm confident have no idea what they're talking about. There is no conspiracy theory. If your not a reputable researcher you sound pretty dumb trying to preach how they should be doing their jobs.

Kiwi's statements sound perfectly logical and reasonable. People talking about conspiracy theories or scientists' unwillingness to develop therapies that have potential sound like raving lunatics.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

His comments don't sound logical and sound totally flat-out stupid when he's trying to put words in my mouth (saying that I said that mouse testing should be bypassed and humans should be tested on first) and insinuating that I'm proposing some "frankensteinish" type thing about testing dangerous chemicals on humans.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  And nobody sounds like some raving lunatic here man, my arguments are well thought out and make sense, despite whether some people disagree with them or not.  But whatever.  I think the one thing we all agree upon is that we should make the focus of this board on Histogen's HSC Complex and not on arguing with one another.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

Ha ha ha !! Keep your hay-filled head in the sand -or the toilet- dumb ****. Clueless sheep like you are the norm after all. I'm not here saying the reason we don't have a hair loss cure is because of conspiracies, you idiot. But tell me, dumb ass, what more do I need to know about some ****ing so-called "scientists" or "researchers" doing experimentation on growing hair in mice for the past 20-25 years, especially that they almost always end up succeeding in regrowing their hair but then it all stops there ?? This isn't about conspiracy, idiot. But seriously, are you telling me pharma is all honesty and integrity ?? Well, just go graze, my stupid sheep.

----------


## Dasani

Right. Well now that DHT got that out of his system and we can all go back to ignoring him, would any of the normal people in this form like to share their views on how they feel about potentially hearing from 3 companies Q1 2012 with clinical trial updates? Has there ever been a time in history where there were so many potential solutions in the pipeline at the same time?

----------


## UK_

I feel corporations [Big PHARMA] are a bunch of money hungry ****s that could probably cure this if they made half the effort.

Sick of this shit.

Just look at how hard the SkinMedica suits came raining down on Histogen when they started out.

----------


## Sogeking

Whichever company resolves hair loss will become one of the big pharma inner circle and definetly won't be pushed around. What will they do with that status remains to be seen. And I think that in this capitalistic society it is naive to believe that they have our best interests at hand. Morality has become a nice word which is used by the powerful individuals to gather support from other people. But lets not go there, wrong thread  :Smile: .

@Dasani 
This is the first time ever. Q1 and Q2 of 2012 will be an enlightening period for hair los sufferers. 
However I am having trouble remaining patient. It would be much easier to wait for a safe proven and effective product to come to market than to wait for someone to even find that product. 
I'll be honest it is killing me. I would just like to know wheter this future treatments work or not.

----------


## MrRyan

Yes i feel the same i just want to know so i can move forward with how i need to come to terms with my hair loss, it's like we are in a limbo with all these treatments i'm just hoping we are not all let down.

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## Follicle Death Row

> Yes i feel the same i just want to know so i can move forward with how i need to come to terms with my hair loss, it's like we are in a limbo with all these treatments i'm just hoping we are not all let down.


 I feel much the same. It's such a tease thinking there might be something in the next 3-5 years. It will be disappointing if they don't have anything but at least I can say sod it and get on with it. This kind of being in limbo blows.

----------


## Dasani

Q1/Q2 of 2012 guys, we're going to get a lot more information. Hang in there.

----------


## stillinHS1994

Did u guys read the post on the replicel thread about an upcoming interview with them and Spencer? Hopefully they can give us some good news

----------


## Losing_It

While trolling the Histogen website, I found this quote. It is nothing new, but their claim was that the pre-clinical data was superior to current market products. Here is the paragraph from there Corporate Fact sheet: 

" Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC)
Histogen's Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC) is a proprietary formulation of naturally secreted 
embryonic proteins and growth factors. HSC contains the first naturally stabilized, bioactive 
solution of Wnt proteins and their cofactors, which have been implicated in the induction of new 
hair follicle formation and growth.
Histogen has completed a preliminary human clinical trial of HSC as an injectable for hair 
regrowth. Within this trial, no adverse events were seen in any of the trial subjects, and efficacy 
results surpassed those of all other currently available hair growth products:"

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Yes 57 hairs per cm2 or 25FU/cm2. Despite what some say that is a big deal. We all anticipate them coming up with something better than that in the end but as it stands now if that was released tomorrow you'd already have a product that's far superior to finasteride. We're looking at a product that stabilises hair loss and gives you hair back which is repeatable at least in terms of upkeep. Couple of the conservative guesses we have been throwing around is a round of injections every 5 years or so.

I'm so envious of those that are 5 years away from starting the balding process. They may never suffer from hair loss. I wish I was 18 again.

----------


## UK_

LOL they were saying that back in 2006.

You really think the kids growing up today will never have to worry about hair loss?

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> LOL they were saying that back in 2006.
> 
> You really think the kids growing up today will never have to worry about hair loss?


 If something like Histogen came out in 5 years and it was reasonably priced? You don't agree?

----------


## Jundam

The people who say it will be cured within 5 years are far less annoying than the people who keep pointing out that they're not the first to say it.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

You say 2006 like that's a really long time ago. I think we do have a cause for optimism here. Mind you I might think very differently if phase 2 from Histogen, Aderans, Replicel or Follica doesn't deliver.

I don't think baldness will always be an affliction (if that term even applies). Are you feeling pessmistic about Histogen and co. UK?

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> The people who say it will be cured within 5 years are far less annoying than the people who keep pointing out that they're not the first to say it.


  :Smile:  I think 5 years is more realistic now than it was in 2006. They had sweet FA back then. At least they have a few things now that show some genuine promise. It might be 10 or 15 years but I would be surprised if say a 10 year old today who's destined to start balding at 30 wouldn't have a far superior and easier method to do something about it. Things in general have come along way from 1991 to 2011. At least I think so.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I can imagine the process for a 25/30 year old in 2025 being no bigger an ordeal than say LASIK is today (It was a pretty big deal in the early 90s). That's a bold prediction but I believe it. I also think there will be a big change in dentistry and orthodontics in the early 2030s. Things don't stay still. But alas I am the eternal optimist.

----------


## Jundam

I expect a scientific solution to be found within the next ten years, even if it hasn't reached the market yet by that time. I doubt there will be an actual cure, but I don't doubt that there will be a cosmetic cure, one that lets you grow a full head of hair but forces you to live with the expenses and inconveniences of repeated treatments. 

Although I'm hopeful that Histogen or Replicel will be it for us. I'd love to grow a full head of hair and do something crazy with it while I'm still young enough to think it's cool.

----------


## Losing_It

Well according to some at that hairsite forum, all these new things are just scams. I am 31 now, but if it does take another 20 years to perfect methodologies etc, I would still jump all over it. You only as old as you feel and I feel eternally young. Balding is difficult to judge. I lost quite a bit the last 2 years but it may  remain static for the next ten years, who knows. In fact I think I may have been losing hair for the past ten years and only starting to notice it now. 

At least for the first time we have companies investigating minimally invasive treatments. I remain optimistic, it is pretty much all I can do for now.

----------


## Losing_It

> I expect a scientific solution to be found within the next ten years, even if it hasn't reached the market yet by that time. I doubt there will be an actual cure, but I don't doubt that there will be a cosmetic cure, one that lets you grow a full head of hair but forces you to live with the expenses and inconveniences of repeated treatments. 
> 
> Although I'm hopeful that Histogen or Replicel will be it for us. I'd love to grow a full head of hair and do something crazy with it while I'm still young enough to think it's cool.


 Who says, you need to be young to enjoy a full head of hair. Look at this clip. My brother in his mid-forties got hair like this, and I am pissed and envious that I was short-changed. I would definitely wear my hair like this in my fifties. If you got it show it, that is my motto. Now I need to go break into Histogen's lab.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSCid-iOoe0

----------


## Losing_It

Come to think of it, my dad had hair like this in his elderly days. I am blaming this curse on the postman then

----------


## Jundam

When I said I wanted to do something crazy with it I wasn't talking about getting an 80's haircut. I'd get something that would make people say I should be institutionalized.

----------


## Losing_It

Dude, the 80s is back in fashion judging from all the Hollywood 80s film remakes. Oh, and that was the 70s. If I get it all back, I am taking care of it and not do crazy things with it because I miss it too much.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> I expect a scientific solution to be found within the next ten years, even if it hasn't reached the market yet by that time. I doubt there will be an actual cure, but I don't doubt that there will be a cosmetic cure, one that lets you grow a full head of hair but forces you to live with the expenses and inconveniences of repeated treatments. 
> 
> Although I'm hopeful that Histogen or Replicel will be it for us. I'd love to grow a full head of hair and do something crazy with it while I'm still young enough to think it's cool.


 Well what Histogen proposes seems like an ongoing treatment which will be used periodically whereas what Aderans and Replicel are looking at is a cell based hair multiplication so it could in the future be 'one and done' with the option of a touch up down the line. No different to say LASIK is today.

What makes the hairsite guys think it's all a scam? Unfortunately Dr. Cole doesn't sound too positive about Aderans or Histogen either. I hope he's wrong. Maybe I'm just overly optimistic.

----------


## Losing_It

Its just those two guys, Iron_Man and Stevie_Dee I think, if it is not Gho, it is destined to fail. God i'm glad I don't know those 2 in real life. What is Dr. Cole's point of view.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Listening to part 2 of the Jason Gardiner procedure at the mo. I'll dig up  the link to Dr. Cole's view in awhile and post it here.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=3998&page=68

Here's the link to Dr. Cole's views. I think he goes on to relent a little bit but it's interesting and worth a read.

----------


## Jundam

I care very, very little about what any hair transplant surgeon has to say about any scientific progress in the field of hair loss. 

A good treatment will put 95% of their field out of business. If Histogen or Replicel go into phase III with great success they will hit the media and that alone will eliminate the need for the vast majority of hair restoration clinics.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well we will see i have to say and yes i am sceptical

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Its just those two guys, Iron_Man and Stevie_Dee I think, if it is not Gho, it is destined to fail. God i'm glad I don't know those 2 in real life. What is Dr. Cole's point of view.


 No, they are just bipolar. I check that site every once in a while just to get a good laugh. Those guys spend every day and every hour talking shit to eachother. One day they are excited about a treatment and the next day it's a scam. They have more problems than hair loss. The whole site is a mess.

----------


## LarryDavid

If you are looking for another good laugh read Stevie´s posts regarding Gho half a year ago. Back then Gho was destined to fail.

----------


## Dasani

So Replicel is about 9 months into their first clinical trial in Georgia, and while they're yet to release their results (planned result release date is Q1 2012) - the ARE adding staff to their team. I'm gonna offer up the suggestion that could be a sign. If it's been 9 months and their clinical trial has not grown a single hair or worse gave someone cancer... I doubt they'd be releasing new videos and expanding staff + scheduling interviews with Spencer. We'll see.

----------


## stillinHS1994

I'm so f&%kin excited lol

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> So Replicel is about 9 months into their first clinical trial in Georgia, and while they're yet to release their results (planned result release date is Q1 2012) - the ARE adding staff to their team. I'm gonna offer up the suggestion that could be a sign. If it's been 9 months and their clinical trial has not grown a single hair or worse gave someone cancer... I doubt they'd be releasing new videos and expanding staff + scheduling interviews with Spencer. We'll see.


 That definitely sounds promising Dasani. Cheers for that. I wonder does the average young bald guy out there know anything about the likes of Histogen, Aderans, Follica and Replicel? What I mean to say is, is it just a select few, (us mainly, TBT regulars), that are pinning our hopes on these future treatments or is it common knowledge to your average bald guy that this stuff is in trials. It's kind of not socially acceptable to discuss baldness (in my country at least) and it is seen largely as a trivial issue (but I think it's changing) so you never really know what the general public is thinking regarding all this.

I happen to think the fact all these companies are well into trials is a big deal but are we just overly optimistic on all this? I'm genuinely excited about the results coming in Q1 2012. Aderans, Histogen and Replicel are all due to weigh in with their findings. What interests me is the fact that we have two similar procedures in what Aderans and Replicel are doing yet one is going through the FDA whereas the other is taking the line that the whole procedure is autologous and therefore that circumvents the need to go through traditional FDA trials. Are we genuinely looking at Aderans getting Ji Gami out in 2014 in the US and Replicel coming out somewhere in 2014 along with Histogen?

If we knew these timelines were realistic we could rest a little easier. If it was guaranteed that these treatments could give you 50FU/cm2 all over by 2016 I would be very content to wait. Would definitely put my mind at rest.

----------


## Losing_It

> Listening to part 2 of the Jason Gardiner procedure at the mo. I'll dig up  the link to Dr. Cole's view in awhile and post it here.


 Thanks for the link. He read through it and here are my thoughts. It is clear that he doesn't think that Aderans and Histogen will work. I would have liked to have more of an academic reasoning behind his thoughts. As is, it seems more like a rant than a clearly thought out argument against why HM or stem cells won't work. It is somewhat unprofessional to call out Aderans based on their past as a Wig Maker who is only in it to boost their credibility due to past mistakes by Bosley. He also brings into question the expertise of Aderans Ken Washenik on HM. That may or may not be valid. 

From the tone of his posts, I think he is in two minds about Histogen. He states that Wnt proteins can cause cancer, that the photographic evidence is not impressive and that the photographs could have been misrepresented to present HSC in a more favourable light. In my book an allegation about scientific evidence being manipulated to gain investor support is a serious one. I will admit that I don't know anything about hair science, but being in the field of science myself one needs to look at Histogen's data in the context it was presented. A pre-clinical study testing safety not efficacy. They argue that they managed not only to revive follicles but create new ones. Even if they fail Phase 1 and 2, I believe a significant step in the right direction have been made. 

HT surgeons keeps harping on how HT are the gold standard in hair restoration. In my opinion you get a Transplant based on two principles: 

1) you are absolutely sure you won't be losing much more hair
2) Desperate enough to undergo the procedure and making a life long commitment to having more work done in the future and eating propecia for the rest of your life.   

Science is about progress and if no company is willing to take risks to find novel ways to make significant enhancements in hair science then I am afraid we are all doomed.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Other than Histogen, I wonder if other treatments also help for thinning hair. What if you have real thin donor like very old people. That's Also very important. It's not all about coverage but density all over the head as well.

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## Losing_It

I don't think that too many people outside the forums no about these possible treatments. One thing for sure they, it will be marketed like crazy if they can demonstrate reasonable efficacy.

----------


## Jundam

Yeah. All it takes is for one of them to hit phase III with promise and it'll be covered worldwide by every spectrum of the media. Nobody's going to miss it.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Relax relax guys lets wait what they have to say

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Dr. Cole is a good guy but I'm not sure if his Aderans argument is sound. To be fair, hair system/piece/wigs sales, whatever you want to call them, have been declining for well over ages. I think it makes sense for Aderans to invest in HM now rather than do nothing and see their business collapse. Very shrewd business move I'd say.

I'll have to have a look at the Aderans timeline I put up somewhere to see when they're supposed to go into phase 3. I'd imagine it must be Q1 or 2 of 2012. They're testing I think 4 different methods of the cultured/multiplied dermal papillae as far as I am aware.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> Yeah. All it takes is for one of them to hit phase III with promise and it'll be covered worldwide by every spectrum of the media. Nobody's going to miss it.


  :Big Grin:  Might look into buying some stock then.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Also by the logic I think Aderans are following, it would be in Dr. Cole's interest to keep an eye on this stuff and look to provide it unless he plans on retiring within in the next decade.

----------


## Dasani

> That definitely sounds promising Dasani. Cheers for that. I wonder does the average young bald guy out there know anything about the likes of Histogen, Aderans, Follica and Replicel? What I mean to say is, is it just a select few, (us mainly, TBT regulars), that are pinning our hopes on these future treatments or is it common knowledge to your average bald guy that this stuff is in trials. It's kind of not socially acceptable to discuss baldness (in my country at least) and it is seen largely as a trivial issue (but I think it's changing) so you never really know what the general public is thinking regarding all this.
> 
> I happen to think the fact all these companies are well into trials is a big deal but are we just overly optimistic on all this? I'm genuinely excited about the results coming in Q1 2012. Aderans, Histogen and Replicel are all due to weigh in with their findings. What interests me is the fact that we have two similar procedures in what Aderans and Replicel are doing yet one is going through the FDA whereas the other is taking the line that the whole procedure is autologous and therefore that circumvents the need to go through traditional FDA trials. Are we genuinely looking at Aderans getting Ji Gami out in 2014 in the US and Replicel coming out somewhere in 2014 along with Histogen?
> 
> If we knew these timelines were realistic we could rest a little easier. If it was guaranteed that these treatments could give you 50FU/cm2 all over by 2016 I would be very content to wait. Would definitely put my mind at rest.


 Yes I agree. No way to tell how good these treatments are going to be, but the people producing them have offered up 2014/2015 as tentative release dates. We're just going to have to wait until January/Feb/March of 2012 to see the clinical trial results. I HOPE they blow everything else out of the water.  :Smile:

----------


## Losing_It

Idk maybe Dr. Cole's criticism is valid, he is after all an insider to the Industry so maybe a little bird whispered something in his ear. What is up with Follica though, they are like the CIA of the hair loss industry.

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## Jundam

A hypocritical "insider" with everything to lose and nothing to gain from the potential success of the scientific progress he's talking shit about.
I give his opinion absolutely no credit.

As far as Follica goes it's anybody's guess. Everything you hear about them seems to be founded on rumors.

----------


## Dasani

So who in this thread is obsessed with the potential for a cure besides me? I'm 23, and I just recently noticed I was starting to get thin in my crown. I was shocked because I had never thought about hair loss and I just didn't think about it as something that happens to people in their early 20's. So I freaked out, but immediately got on Finasteride and Minoxidil after a quick visit to the dermatologist. ~2.5-3 months later... my hair has had very good results. It's gotten much thicker and I really can't see any thinning in my crown.

So now if this was 1992 I'd still consider myself screwed and just delaying the inevitable. However today, there's hope for potentially 'curing' baldness in the near future. I'd say (based on clinical trail results for finasteride and minox + my results so far + plan guesswork) I have anywhere from 5-7 maybe 8 years before the effects of my treatments start wearing off. Histogen has said it's product could be available as early as 2014 in certain countries (~2.5 years away). Aderans has also said 2014. Replicel, who knows but I can't image it being significantly longer.

Needless to say I'm white-nuckling it and just plain hoping these potential future treatments actually pan out.

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## stillinHS1994

Ummmm all of us? I think its safe to say all of us are obsessed with a potential cure...I know I am

----------


## Jundam

I'm not really obsessed, I'm just intrigued by the possibility. It's one of the few fields of research that I have a personal interest in so it gets some extra attention during downtime. I still have a pretty full head of hair thanks to Propecia and Rogaine but I'm currently shaving it all off with a razor every few days and I kind of like it. My problem with it, and the reason I'm hoping for a cure, is because this look requires shaving essentially every day/every other day. I'd prefer just getting a haircut every 3 months like I used to. To some extent I'd also prefer to have the choice of going between shaved and long hair, rather than being forced into one for the rest of my life. I'm 23 now and my hope is that when I'm somewhere between 30-35 there'll be a solution for me. Although sooner works too. Since I started balding at 19 and looking my father's pattern I'm gonna be a Norwood 6 so hair transplants are out of the question due to limited donor.

----------


## Samiam

> So who in this thread is obsessed with the potential for a cure besides me? I'm 23, and I just recently noticed I was starting to get thin in my crown. I was shocked because I had never thought about hair loss and I just didn't think about it as something that happens to people in their early 20's. So I freaked out, but immediately got on Finasteride and Minoxidil after a quick visit to the dermatologist. ~2.5-3 months later... my hair has had very good results. It's gotten much thicker and I really can't see any thinning in my crown.
> 
> So now if this was 1992 I'd still consider myself screwed and just delaying the inevitable. However today, there's hope for potentially 'curing' baldness in the near future. I'd say (based on clinical trail results for finasteride and minox + my results so far + plan guesswork) I have anywhere from 5-7 maybe 8 years before the effects of my treatments start wearing off. Histogen has said it's product could be available as early as 2014 in certain countries (~2.5 years away). Aderans has also said 2014. Replicel, who knows but I can't image it being significantly longer.
> 
> Needless to say I'm white-nuckling it and just plain hoping these potential future treatments actually pan out.


 

Dude if your treatments are working right now than relax a bit.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> So who in this thread is obsessed with the potential for a cure besides me? I'm 23, and I just recently noticed I was starting to get thin in my crown. I was shocked because I had never thought about hair loss and I just didn't think about it as something that happens to people in their early 20's. So I freaked out, but immediately got on Finasteride and Minoxidil after a quick visit to the dermatologist. ~2.5-3 months later... my hair has had very good results. It's gotten much thicker and I really can't see any thinning in my crown.
> 
> So now if this was 1992 I'd still consider myself screwed and just delaying the inevitable. However today, there's hope for potentially 'curing' baldness in the near future. I'd say (based on clinical trail results for finasteride and minox + my results so far + plan guesswork) I have anywhere from 5-7 maybe 8 years before the effects of my treatments start wearing off. Histogen has said it's product could be available as early as 2014 in certain countries (~2.5 years away). Aderans has also said 2014. Replicel, who knows but I can't image it being significantly longer.
> 
> Needless to say I'm white-nuckling it and just plain hoping these potential future treatments actually pan out.


 I think you'll make it to follicle escape velocity. :Big Grin:  You could well keep your hair. I'm not so confident of my own prospects (I'm not on fin). The treatments of the future will have to be able to give me some hair back.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> I'm not really obsessed, I'm just intrigued by the possibility. It's one of the few fields of research that I have a personal interest in so it gets some extra attention during downtime. I still have a pretty full head of hair thanks to Propecia and Rogaine but I'm currently shaving it all off with a razor every few days and I kind of like it. My problem with it, and the reason I'm hoping for a cure, is because this look requires shaving essentially every day/every other day. I'd prefer just getting a haircut every 3 months like I used to. To some extent I'd also prefer to have the choice of going between shaved and long hair, rather than being forced into one for the rest of my life. I'm 23 now and my hope is that when I'm somewhere between 30-35 there'll be a solution for me. Although sooner works too. Since I started balding at 19 and looking my father's pattern I'm gonna be a Norwood 6 so hair transplants are out of the question due to limited donor.


 I'm facing a similar scenario. I'm 25 now and would be happy enough if these treatments came along by 33ish. It would be nice to get back a full head of hair before time catches up and the rest of the body goes to shit anyway and you wonder why you were ever bothered by hair loss in the first place. It's ****ing horrible losing your hair in your early 20s. It's certainly not average or normal (based on people I know anyway). Of course things could be a lot worse but I still feel a little bitter because I feel cheated a bit and it's not par for the course. Think it would be fair enough if the hair started the balding process at 35 like it did for my old man (ok well I haven't been cheated since it's in the genes but why so young?). Kind of seems fairer when you're approaching early-middle age and it's more in sync with the rest of the changes your body undergoes. I suppose it's just tough because it does feel like you've been robbed of some of your youth to an extent.

I think if I make it to 35-40 and there's no cure it won't really be an issue anymore. I'd be like sod it, bit late now. I know people will always care about their appearance no matter what age they are but I think not having hair at 35 or 40 has a lot less of an impact on your self image and on how others perceive you than if you were in your early 20s. It's about what's normal, for me at least. Kind of sucks when you're young and everyone else is rocking a  full head of hair.

----------


## Sogeking

@Follicle Death Row
Hey Follicle I think there are a few reasons why I going bald before the 35-40 time interval sucks more, although it is not a pleasant affliction at any age:

1. You are young so you are still in the hunting mode for young women since your testosterone level is higher, having hair increases the odds.

2. By the age of 35-40 I expected to be married with hopefully a good wife which wouldn't be bothered by my hair loss. In that case hair loss would be less of a nuisance. For the most part having hair is about getting chicks. I don't care much about what guys think of me if I am bald.  :Big Grin:  No offense guys.

3. At the age of 23 when my hair started to thin, I was and I still am a student. I have no money for anything expect the basic needs in life that are provided by my parents. If I were at a later age I might even have money to try new treatments maybe even afford Rogaine foam on a regular basis. 
If a new treatment arrives I wouldn't have money for it. 

Hair loss sucks at any age but especially at younger ages.
However I still believe there are worse fates than hair loss.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Yes the biggest problem for me is accepting baldness at a young age. Still have some hair and almost hitting 30 but still. But maybe we should look at it, the way Spencer put it. "This is the best time ever to go bald". We might be saved in the near future guys.

----------


## Jundam

Well, actually the best time ever to go bald would be when an effective hair loss treatment is already on the market because then you'd never have to worry about anything but the potential expenses.

The bitch about going bald now is the uncertainty. There is hope but there is no confirmation of it being justified. If Replicel or Histogen comes through in clinical trials and shows an ability to effectively cure our condition I won't really care if I have to wait till 2014-2016. There really won't be anybody in this world appreciating their hair as much as the formerly bald.

----------


## CVAZBAR

I completely understand but imagine going through this 20 years ago. This is truly the best time ever. Now we just have to hope it becomes the last time.

----------


## Losing_It

I think hair loss sucks no matter the age. I am 31 now and was lucky enough to spend my twenties with a full head of hair or at least what I thought was one. One may accept it easier later in life, but it still sucks balding in your thirties. 

I was reading Histogen's hair growth patent online. Not certain if it was posted before, but here's the link: 

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0034787.html

----------


## TheDude

I totally agree guys, young and bald really sux..

When everyone you hang out with has a full head of hair you tend to think to yourself do these people even have problems worth mentioning...

An the media compounds the matter by damming the bald...

If you ask me having hair is about self-esteem... waking up in the morning and liking what you see an how you feel about yourself.. everything else is just secondary... if you have self-love, the rest will follow..

I just hope 5 years from now whether with/without hair i don't regret the amount of time hours/days/weeks/years that i've spent worrying about MPB..

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> @Follicle Death Row
> Hey Follicle I think there are a few reasons why I going bald before the 35-40 time interval sucks more, although it is not a pleasant affliction at any age:
> 
> 1. You are young so you are still in the hunting mode for young women since your testosterone level is higher, having hair increases the odds.
> 
> 2. By the age of 35-40 I expected to be married with hopefully a good wife which wouldn't be bothered by my hair loss. In that case hair loss would be less of a nuisance. For the most part having hair is about getting chicks. I don't care much about what guys think of me if I am bald.  No offense guys.
> 
> 3. At the age of 23 when my hair started to thin, I was and I still am a student. I have no money for anything expect the basic needs in life that are provided by my parents. If I were at a later age I might even have money to try new treatments maybe even afford Rogaine foam on a regular basis. 
> If a new treatment arrives I wouldn't have money for it. 
> ...


 I agree with all your points but also for me it's also a real personal thing where I look at myself and think **** what's happening to me. I'd like a full head of hair for all the reasons you mentioned but also it's a real self image thing for me too even if you disregard 1 and 2. I'd want to have a nice full head of hair while I'm young because well it just fits and would feel right. There's a real disconnect between what I see in the mirror, how it makes me feel about myself and how I think I should feel when I'm young. It's definitely an age thing. You think to yourself ****, I look like I'm turning into an old man here when I should be feeling young and vibrant. It's amazing, it's made me feel older and less energetic but I'm looking to begin exercising loads again to get the youthful energy and enthusiam back. Hell I'm only 25.

It's definitely a mental health thing and feeling comfortable in your own skin. Self image and just feeling good and content within yourself is very important. Good things may happen next year. Keep the faith.

----------


## Mojo Risin

Histogen is dead. 
They removed all the informations concerning their clinical trials on their website and they removed the informations about a potential release date.

----------


## ALLISWELL

> Histogen is dead. 
> They removed all the informations concerning their clinical trials on their website and they removed the informations about a potential release date.


 Another Scam Ended. :Big Grin:

----------


## Mojo Risin

Next on the list : Replicel.

----------


## ALLISWELL

Correct, they will change their name a thousand times and always take 5 more years to reach on market....

----------


## RichardDawkins

Funny that people attacked me for saying stuff like this before :-) The first evidence for this was when they failed to present something as promised :-)

And no please spare me with sugar talk here, the Histogen train is derailed and next (not in that particulaire order) are

Replicel
Ari

----------


## The Alchemist

> Histogen is dead. 
> They removed all the informations concerning their clinical trials on their website and they removed the informations about a potential release date.


 Seriously?  Why is it that when i went to their home page, one of the first things i saw was a link to their information on clinical trials for HSC?  Can you explain that in regards to your comments above?

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Ha. It could be a wind up. Having said that even if the trials are underway (not sure anyone knows) it's really tough to even guess the likelihood of them going to market down the line. All we know is they have a concept that is safe and shows potential.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> Histogen is dead. 
> They removed all the informations concerning their clinical trials on their website and they removed the informations about a potential release date.


 God, I almost had a heart attack when I read this!  But no, they are not dead at all.  I went to their page and all of their HSC Complex information is still listed.  Thank God they're still alive and well!

----------


## Mojo Risin

> God, I almost had a heart attack when I read this!  But no, they are not dead at all.  I went to their page and all of their HSC Complex information is still listed.  Thank God they're still alive and well!


 Are you blind ? They cleaned up the website. No more clinical status, no more release date information ... 

Histogen IS dead.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I don't know what website (and WTF with this 'are you blind' bullshit) you're checking out but I checked these main Histogen sites and they still have a wealth of information on HSC Complex: 

http://www.histogen.com/applications/hsc.htm

http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#25

http://www.zieringmedical.com/histog...g-complex.html

----------


## RichardDawkins

You simply dont get it, they deleted their clinical trial page and the potential release date

----------


## Jundam

I wouldn't read too much into this yet. The funding was there and the trials would have started in July according to the information we received earlier. This means that they would be 4-8 weeks into their clinical protocol and the first evaluation point isn't until the 12 week mark.

The only reason I can come up with is that something went wrong in the beginning of the trials and that they're either postponed indefinitely or that there was a major safety concern discovered early on and that they had to shut down and re-evaluate. Either way I don't understand the people calling it a scam; They had absolutely nothing to gain and a lot to lose by drawing attention to themselves and then failing in the eyes of both their investors and the public. They most certainly believed in their product and none of the possible reasons I can see for this implies a lack of potential but rather unforeseen circumstances.

There's also the chance that something is merely being updated/edited. It wouldn't be the first time something changed on an internet page and made everybody throw a hissy fit.

Either way I won't react to it until there's official word from Histogen.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Thank God!!!  I was so worried about this that I just phoned Histogen and asked them about this.  And they assured me that HSC Complex is still under development and alive and well.  They just said that they are making some re-designs and changes to the website so that's why the 'clinical trials' bar might be missing.  But they said that everything is still functioning with HSC Complex; ie conducting clinical trials in the Far East.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Of Course :-)

----------


## krewel

> Are you blind ? They cleaned up the website. No more clinical status, no more release date information ... 
> 
> Histogen IS dead.


 What now wise guy?

----------


## The Alchemist

> Thank God!!!  I was so worried about this that I just phoned Histogen and asked them about this.  And they assured me that HSC Complex is still under development and alive and well.  They just said that they are making some re-designs and changes to the website so that's why the 'clinical trials' bar might be missing.  But they said that everything is still functioning with HSC Complex; ie conducting clinical trials in the Far East.


 DepressedByHairLoss,  you should take RichardDawkins, aka Leeroy, aka StevieDee, at his word.  He, in his infinite wisdom, knows more than the company themselves.    He knows so much that he's banned or restricted from posting on multiple forums.  The powers that be are trying to censor him so they can make up stuff about clinical trials and get your money.  He's just trying to help you and the rest of us.

----------


## Jundam

> Thank God!!!  I was so worried about this that I just phoned Histogen and asked them about this.  And they assured me that HSC Complex is still under development and alive and well.  They just said that they are making some re-designs and changes to the website so that's why the 'clinical trials' bar might be missing.  But they said that everything is still functioning with HSC Complex; ie conducting clinical trials in the Far East.


 You really did? Thank you on behalf of all of us if so. I'm sure it eases many minds.

I thought it seemed strange that they would shut down this early into the clinical trial phase.

----------


## CAlex

ALLISWELL, MOJO and RichardDawkins seem to have some issues. If you seriously think histogen is a big failure and no treatment is coming why the heck are you a member on this forum?

any small thing and they freak out and claim histogen has failed. They keep saying histogen is a scam! who are they scamming? they havent got any of our money. They are obviously trying to get a legitimate treatment to market. They could very easily just release a b.s. shampoo that aids in hair growth. Now that would be a scam. I seriously pity guys that just hang out here who just have nothing better to do. hairloss is not your biggest issue.


DepressedByHairLoss did you seriously call them?

----------


## krewel

> DepressedByHairLoss,  you should take RichardDawkins, aka Leeroy, aka StevieDee, at his word.  He, in his infinite wisdom, knows more than the company themselves.    He knows so much that he's banned or restricted from posting on multiple forums.  The powers that be are trying to censor him so they can make up stuff about clinical trials and get your money.  He's just trying to help you and the rest of us.


 There are hairloss suffers like us, trying to be optimistic and giving other people hope and motivation. And there are suffers who just want to share pain I guess.

Saying that Histogen would be dead without any official confirmation is just irresponsible. There are people who get really sad by hearing this, so please just stop this sh*** Dawkins.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yeah right a homepage is updated and strangely th most important part for us is missing of course.

Has anyonhe here forgotten that they would have given a small update some months ago. Also did we hear something from their congress? Nope we didnt.

Btw i think that they will only produce stuff HSC for other companies and they themselvs wont do anything for a market entry at all

----------


## Ronin

DepressedbyHairLoss - did you really call them up or are you just trying to give us a peace of mind? Come on, we're all big boys here, we can handle the truth!  :Wink:

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Yeah, I absolutely did; I promise.  I was so worried about it, since Histogen is the best shot that we have, I believe.  It took me a few tries, but I finally talked to a very nice lady there who assured me that HSC Complex was still involved with trials in Singapore and was NOT dead at all.  I've just got way too much invested in HSC Complex working that I knew I had to get the straight deal on it.  Hell, I must've made her confirm her answer (that HSC Complex was still up and running, and NOT dead) a bunch of times, just so I could get the straight scoop.  So yes, I absolutely called them up, without a doubt.  I live in the U.S. and I have a flat monthly phone rate so it was totally cool.  Hell, you guys can call them too if you like; their number is readily available in the contact info on their site.  Maybe, it will show them how much we really have riding on HSC Complex, and how much we appreciate what they are doing (creating a non-invasive, non-scarring, and very effective treatment for hair loss).  Although I'm sure that they already know.  And it sure as hell has shown to be exponentially better than anything we've got so far.  So yeah, the lady was very nice and very cool, and told me that HSC is still conducting trials and not dead at all.  Hell, I think I must've asked her like 4 times!!! Damn, now I can go lift weights in peace, without having to worry!

----------


## Ronin

LOL! Nice one mate - go lift your weights, you sound pretty agitated!

Just to pre-empt what the pessimists will say - of course, it may be that something has gone wrong and Histogen are not going to tell everyone who calls them up that they are having problems. That said, I remain an optimist and hope for the best (i.e. all is well and baldness cure is coming!)

----------


## Mojo Risin

I called them and they said they were giving up on their clinical trials.

----------


## Ronin

lol you are such a dick

----------


## mlao

So if it's dead whats this?
http://www.histogen.com/products/hsc.htm

----------


## UK_

...........


> I called them and they said they were giving up on their clinical trials.


 lol

----------


## CVAZBAR

What's funny is that Richard Dawkins only repeats what his master Iron Man says. He is only a cheerleader. Everyone knows he is Iron Mans bitch! 

Cujo Risin is always negative. Not sure what that child troll is doing in this forum. Someone needs to contact his parents to let them know their son needs attention. 

Even if Histogen does fail and every other company, I don't understand why you queers are so happy. What do they get from it? Hopefully Spencer bans them before they turn this into Hairsite.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> What's funny is that Richard Dawkins only repeats what his master Iron Man says. He is only a cheerleader. Everyone knows he is Iron Mans bitch! 
> 
> Cujo Risin is always negative. Not sure what that child troll is doing in this forum. Someone needs to contact his parents to let them know their son needs attention. 
> 
> Even if Histogen does fail and every other company, I don't understand why you queers are so happy. What do they get from it? Hopefully Spencer bans them before they turn this into Hairsite.


 Hahaha.........

----------


## UK_

Did somebody say *Iron_Man*?




> *Originally posted by Iron_Man on Hairsite:*
> Regenerative Medicine & Stem Cell 2011
> November 11-13, 2011
> Beijing, China
> Dr. Gail K. Naughton to present "Apoptosis of cancer stem cells and proliferating cancer cells induced by human embryonic-like ECM"
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news.htm
> ---------------------------
> *"So what? 
> ...


 
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!




> *Originally posted by Iron_Man on Hairsite:*  So, because - WHAT induces WHAT by embryonic-like ECM?


 


> *Originally posted by Iron_Man on Hairsite:*   Someone else has any idea how to read this (somewhat confusing) presentation title?


 FFUUSSHSNBANANAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!

(Too easy).  Lulz.

----------


## Losing_It

Wow talk about derailing the thread. I can't imagine anyone being happy about Histogen, Replicel, Aderans or any new treatment down the pipeline failing. Its like those two clowns are running down the street shouting to the top of their lungs: Histogen Failed, Histogen Failed, Yay, I'm going to stay bald. Only to go cry themselves to sleep later on. 

Its great to be a skeptic, one should never take anything at face value, but to actually wish the demise of any potential treatment is just plain idiotic. 

I wish those two all the best in the future, but they clearly here just to kick dust in our eyes.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Where are the updates promised by Ziering a few months back? He never came back to this statement of his.

Btw seems Histogen switched their approach to a more "Gho Follica Lauster" kinda way. I wonder why that is. Btw now they officially starting at zero again, good job another few years wasted.

But dont get me wrong, i am happy for fair resons, because this "downfall" of Histogen will also make the downfall of traditional transplants faster.

Let me put it this way hater friends, did you in the last few months ever see or read somebody who was totally in favor of FUT? Did you? To me it was like a End times movie lately, from a sudden point in time FUT was or is not considered to be the first choice anymore just out of the blue no one cries about this that much anymore.

Yeah yeah call me queer i dont care, because i dont have a problem with queer people, why should i.

----------


## GBB

> Where are the updates promised by Ziering a few months back? He never came back to this statement of his.
> 
> Btw seems Histogen switched their approach to a more "Gho Follica Lauster" kinda way. I wonder why that is. Btw now they officially starting at zero again, good job another few years wasted.
> 
> But dont get me wrong, i am happy for fair resons, because this "downfall" of Histogen will also make the downfall of traditional transplants faster.
> 
> Let me put it this way hater friends, did you in the last few months ever see or read somebody who was totally in favor of FUT? Did you? To me it was like a End times movie lately, from a sudden point in time FUT was or is not considered to be the first choice anymore just out of the blue no one cries about this that much anymore.
> 
> Yeah yeah call me queer i dont care, because i dont have a problem with queer people, why should i.


 Okay, dude. We believe you. Now will you shut the **** up?

----------


## MrRyan

Okay so let me get this straight are we saying Histogen has failed ? On what basis are we saying this because they changed there website, if that's the case that is a bit preemptive. People are saying there was a hold up in trials where is this information coming from is it just assumption, i can't see a thing to support that view.

This is simple, what needs to happen is, Spencer Kobren you need to help out the people on this site and contact Histogen to see what the hell is going on, i think it's the least you can do for all the people that come on here regularly and have a lot of interest in this. Can you do that for us or not ? At least it will be from a trusted source then if it is true and not from people who seem to want it to fail, which i can't get my head around, but hey i suppose we are all different.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Seriously they usd the japanese earthquake as an obvious excuse for delaying trials. I did in fact knew this, the day the earthquake happened. I was like "Guess what Histogen will use this as an excuse" and they did, while strangely a few days after these tragic events the world turned normal again, except fragile Histogen, right.

Wake up guys, there are two scenarios here

1) they failed completely

2) the switched to the tissue engineering route

And now stop to attack me because i only say whats going on here

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> Seriously they usd the japanese earthquake as an obvious excuse for delaying trials. I did in fact knew this, the day the earthquake happened. I was like "Guess what Histogen will use this as an excuse" and they did, while strangely a few days after these tragic events the world turned normal again, except fragile Histogen, right.
> 
> Wake up guys, there are two scenarios here
> 
> 1) they failed completely
> 
> 2) the switched to the tissue engineering route
> 
> And now stop to attack me because i only say whats going on here


 Ah yes you're actually right on the given delay reason. I remember them saying that now. Wasn't it supposed to start around May but then they said they'd push it back to July? Not sure how the earthquake would affect things in Singapore. Might be a bit dubious. I hope the trials are going ahead or they've gone down route 2 but I really don't see how 2 fits in with everything else they're doing. I still believe a cell based solution ala Aderans and Replicel is the best way forward in the long run. Seems infinitely better. Once the hairs are growing they're there forever.

If Histogen are in fact in trials the timeline still seems overly optimistic to me.

----------


## Losing_It

Delays in trials happen. That is the nature of the business. But to suggest everything just normalized a few days after the Japan earthquake is simply wrong.  I don't see how you could be so happy Richard about Histogen not succeeded? Its not like they took your money and ran away with it.

I was not aware that they switched to the tissue engineering route. Please clarify?

----------


## RichardDawkins

I gave an explanation at hair site WHY i am "happay" and so be it.

This whole Japan Eartquake causes an delay thing sorry this was just an utter lie to please critical voices, yeah thats my opinion.

You know here is one thing to chew on, if Histogen would provide people with info and results from time to time, no one would harass them or rush them, no people would say

"Wait on this picture the patient seem to losse a little bit, investigate this subject if there were inconsitencies etc"

And so it would be beneficial for all of us, Histogen and the suffering baldies.

But instead they use the Earthquake and this is just come on the cheapest way to slip out of something. I am just saying as it is, its a charade and they can choose to provide informations on a more or less daily basis (weekly monthly whatsoever) but they rather use excuses and strangely delete their clinical trial sttus bar RIGHT, i wonder whys that

----------


## Jundam

> Where are the updates promised by Ziering a few months back? He never came back to this statement of his.
> 
> Btw seems Histogen switched their approach to a more "Gho Follica Lauster" kinda way. I wonder why that is. Btw now they officially starting at zero again, good job another few years wasted.
> 
> But dont get me wrong, i am happy for fair resons, because this "downfall" of Histogen will also make the downfall of traditional transplants faster.
> 
> Let me put it this way hater friends, did you in the last few months ever see or read somebody who was totally in favor of FUT? Did you? To me it was like a End times movie lately, from a sudden point in time FUT was or is not considered to be the first choice anymore just out of the blue no one cries about this that much anymore.
> 
> Yeah yeah call me queer i dont care, because i dont have a problem with queer people, why should i.


 The reason people think you're a ****ing moron is because there is absolutely nothing logical or reasonable about anything you say. If you ever contributed anything even remotely useful to any of these threads people wouldn't get so agitated every time you posted something.

Personally I can see no reason to believe anything has gone wrong with Histogen's HSC trials. They have not changed their plans for pan-Asian approval in 2014 and their clinical status page still shows them about to begin phase II. At worst they suffer from a lack of updates. But considering that they are only 1-2 months into the second phase of their HSC clinical trials I don't see why we should be expecting any updates either. EDIT: To answer the last post from RichardDawkins; Research companies never make it a point to provide info and results from "time to time" because they are not trying to please the public, they are trying to conduct scientific research and part of that means that all results they provide must be evaluated and determined conclusive. Otherwise they are worthless. Why do you insist on commentating on things you do not understand? You're making a fool of yourself.

I'll wait for official word from Histogen, and I'm not expecting any until Q1/Q2 2012 when their interim-trial report is due.

----------


## RichardDawkins

The clinical trial PAGE is not available anymore when you use www.histogen.com so dont tell BS i know people wanna stick with Histogen as a savior but reality remains reality.

And i dont care if people call me queer, idiot, moron or whatsoever

----------


## uninformed

> The clinical trial PAGE is not available anymore when you use www.histogen.com so dont tell BS i know people wanna stick with Histogen as a savior but reality remains reality.
> 
> And i dont care if people call me queer, idiot, moron or whatsoever


 http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm

I don't know what you are talking about, sir.

----------


## RichardDawkins

use the website via www.histogen.com without any preinformations after .com and you will see

----------


## Jundam

> And i dont care if people call me queer, idiot, moron or whatsoever


 I'm sure you don't. I'm sure people have called you that so often you've developed an immunity to it.




> The clinical trial PAGE is not available anymore when you use www.histogen.com so dont tell BS i know people wanna stick with Histogen as a savior but reality remains reality.


 And which page is missing? Is this what you're talking about?
http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm

I never saw any other pages detailing clinical trial progress on that site before.

----------


## Jundam

> use the website via www.histogen.com without any preinformations after .com and you will see


 They didn't remove anything. "Products" no longer appears on the site if you enter it without "preinformations". Either every single product Histogen had in the pipeline failed at the same time or they are rearranging the website. Do I need to point out which is most logical? It would seem obvious that the website design has been altered if you compare http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm to www.Histogen.com

----------


## RichardDawkins

So according to you what is more logical then?

Using Earthquakes as an excuse?
Telling people they get some infos in a few weeks and then after a lot of months nothing to hear of?
Destructurizing their website and strangely only the clinical trails page vanished with possible release date?
No informations about their latest hair congress they have been to?
No more HSC as primary intereset, now they talk more about cancer stuff?

Yeah right what is logical here hmmmmmmmmm

----------


## Jundam

> So according to you what is more logical then?
> 
> Using Earthquakes as an excuse?
> Telling people they get some infos in a few weeks and then after a lot of months nothing to hear of?
> Destructurizing their website and strangely only the clinical trails page vanished with possible release date?
> No informations about their latest hair congress they have been to?
> No more HSC as primary intereset, now they talk more about cancer stuff?
> 
> Yeah right what is logical here hmmmmmmmmm


 *Earthquake being used as an excuse for the phase II trial delay was a rumor started on forums. There has never been any official word on this from Histogen. 
*Who said you would get info in a few weeks? Absolutely nobody as far as I know. And for the last time Ziering is not a member of the HSC research team, he has never been. He will not be a part of Histogen's plans until HSC starts clinical trials in the U.S.
*What the **** is "destrucurizing"? They are altering their website as most companies do when they grow in size as is shown by them adding "Applications" and "Business Developement" to the menu. The clinical status page is missing for ALL clinical trials, and they are also missing information to some of their current products. I don't understand how you can reach the conclusion that HSC has failed based on that. If your logic applies then ALL of their products have failed at the same time. It seems obvious update of the webdesign is simply incomplete.
*I think the last congress Dr. Naughton attended was in July/August or something and she presented the same material she has presented at all the other hair congresses since they have not completed any clinical trials since she started attending them after the HSC pre-clinical trial. You probably won't see her present any new data until next year when they've done their first interim-evaluation of the phase II clinical trial. There simply won't be anything new to present or discuss until they've done more research. It would seem obvious but I repeated it for your benefit.
*Histogen does not just work on HSC. It is a research company that is looking to apply their scientific reach to different fields of medicine. Cancer is one of them, and to my knowledge it has been since before HSC went through pre-clinical trials. It is not new and it changes nothing.

----------


## Kiwi

> So according to you what is more logical then?
> 
> Using Earthquakes as an excuse?
> Telling people they get some infos in a few weeks and then after a lot of months nothing to hear of?
> Destructurizing their website and strangely only the clinical trails page vanished with possible release date?
> No informations about their latest hair congress they have been to?
> No more HSC as primary intereset, now they talk more about cancer stuff?
> 
> Yeah right what is logical here hmmmmmmmmm


 That they are changing their site. And that you have lost your mind. I'm a web developer and people change stuff all the time - especially that site, it's a bloody mess!!!

----------


## Losing_It

If I can weigh in here, all those conferences they are attending is not about hair, but about stem cell research. Cancer research will remain their priority of that I am certain. If you look at their history, they also pulled the ReGenica website and you can't buy from them anymore. No big deal since they pulled it to focus on HSC. However, the insinuation here from some is that HSC was nothing more than a scam to get investor support. I don't for one second believe that, partly because they know HSC will allow them to grow their business (If it fails it fails if it succeeds it succeeds). Dr. Cole posed the question the other day: What did Histogen ever do for hair loss sufferers? The answer is simple, nothing at the moment. But if no one is willing to try new techniques then we are all stuck with the current methods.   

I certainly never believed that HSC would turn Nw6/7 into a NW1, but the prospect of it arresting further hair loss was promising. However, it is clear that there is an inherit danger in marketing your product to early, like Histogen did for HSC. They should have kept it to themselves until they could further examine safety and efficacy. At least with Follica, if they fail no one would really care that much since they promised nothing and don't pander to the hair loss industry. In the long term Histogen may have over played their hand, but that is the risk you run in setting up a new biotech company.  

Also I see no problem with Histogen partnering with other Companies to make treatments available. This was there intention from the start to licence the product to dermatologists, physicians, clinics etc. They are a small start-up so expecting them to go to market on their own is just ridiculous. Anyways I said my peace and I have no need to defend a company/individuals I have no material interest in, beyond the fact that I would like them all to succeed since it would benefit millions of men/women and those suffering from cancer. I take no joy in biotech firms failing, the more options the better for consumers.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yeah right and before that the website was not a bloody mess right right. I think some people here just keep on looking for every answer only not to accept the fact that i MAY be right

----------


## Losing_It

Congratulations you are the winner:

----------


## Jundam

> Yeah right and before that the website was not a bloody mess right right. I think some people here just keep on looking for every answer only not to accept the fact that i MAY be right


 Brilliant argument. We should all accept that HSC has failed because you MAY be right about it failing despite not being able to conjure up any evidence or reason to substantiate that claim. A man calling himself Richard Dawkins and using that kind of logic is ironic, pathetic and tragic all at the same time.

You're just embarrassing yourself now.

----------


## Ronin

Guys will you stop arguing with this guy? This makes me think of that story where the villagers decided to punish a pig and started to throw mud at him only to realise after a while that the pig is loving it. 

The way it looks to me is that he really has some issues about proving that he was right about something - most his posts here and on the hairsite end with "I was right" or "I told you so", even if there is no evidence about him being right. Just ignore him, I'm sure we all have better things to do with our lives. 

RichardDawkins - yes, you may be right, but hopefully you are not. Now, please, get a life. Or a girlfriend. Or a sheep. Or a blow-up sheep.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Why nobody here actually cared for my explanation, the only fooly here are the people who come with this whole SHut the **** up dawkins stuff because those people are the real stupid guys around. I fully explained it at hairsite.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> They didn't remove anything. "Products" no longer appears on the site if you enter it without "preinformations". Either every single product Histogen had in the pipeline failed at the same time or they are rearranging the website. Do I need to point out which is most logical? It would seem obvious that the website design has been altered if you compare http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm to www.Histogen.com


 What's funny is that if you dig into old Histogen threads, you will see Richard Dawkins excited, jumping for joy, doing the splits with his pom poms, for Histogen. Now he decides to say it was all a scam and they failed because they took out the "clinical trial" page and he knew it all along ha.

----------


## krewel

> what's funny is that if you dig into old histogen threads, you will see richard dawkins excited, jumping for joy, doing the splits with his pom poms, for histogen. Now he decides to say it was all a scam and they failed because they took out the "clinical trial" page and he knew it all along ha.


 hahahahahahaha. I hope if Histogen comes out it's an extremly successful treatment which makes NW7 guys to NW0 guys but inexplicably not work on RichardDawkins.

----------


## Dasani

> Seriously they usd the japanese earthquake as an obvious excuse for delaying trials. I did in fact knew this, the day the earthquake happened. I was like "Guess what Histogen will use this as an excuse" and they did, while strangely a few days after these tragic events the world turned normal again, except fragile Histogen, right.
> 
> Wake up guys, there are two scenarios here
> 
> 1) they failed completely
> 
> 2) the switched to the tissue engineering route
> 
> And now stop to attack me because i only say whats going on here


 lol or 3. their researchers are still working on the clinical trials and nothing has changed except someone in their marketing dept or their webmaster switched up a tab on their website navigation

----------


## Samiam

> Why nobody here actually cared for my explanation, the only fooly here are the people who come with this whole SHut the **** up dawkins stuff because those people are the real stupid guys around. I fully explained it at hairsite.


 SHut the **** up dawkins

----------


## Kiwi

> SHut the **** up dawkins


 I concur. Dawkins is acting like a real douche bag. No proof. Just a whim. Somebody changes their website and the sky is falling. 

So on that cheery little note. Shut the **** up dawkins.

----------


## GBB

> So on that cheery little note. Shut the **** up dawkins.


 This thread runs into more than 110 pages, and finding relevant information in it, is like finding two grains in 4 bushels of chaff. And there are trolls like Dawkins and Mojo. Q1 2012 isn't too far away, will it hurt all of you an awful lot not to clutter this thread further? I mean, if you have anything interesting to share, please go ahead. Why waste time arguing with an imbecile?

----------


## RichardDawkins

Right i am a troll of course. I think its more obvious that you cannot accept truth. They totally switched their ideas. They are looking for partnerships or want to develop for partners, thats it.

This means components for others and not HSC per se. No proof eh?

1) Ziering said a few months back we will have some informations in 4 weeks!

Did we get them? No we didnt

2) They themselves used the Earthquake as an excuse for delays!

Not very plausible because the patients in the trials would get one injection and then thy go home,thats it. If an Eartquake in Japan can cause a huge delay in SIngapore. Good Lord i really hope that there wont be a Butterfly in Boston whose wings will create a Twister in Singapore

3) Why no information about their Phase 2 trial starting?

No real Info whatsoever, yeah right

4) Vague statements at best!

People always complain about Gho when it comes to Hair cound. But Histogen only said "Yeah the hair was still there after 2 years" WHAT hair? Tha native hair, the new hair and how much of the hair. 

Its like IronMan says, the three monkeys, dont say, dont hear and dont see anything or let me put it in perspective here for anyone with a few questions



1) Did Ari after more then 10 years of research provide at least ONE photo? Yes they are doing research for a very long time.

2) Did Gho increase his session of graft harvesting lately yes or No (2300 Grafts now)?

3) Is or isnt the potential release date of HSC been deleted from histogns website?

So wake up, this is a dead end

----------


## GBB

> Right i am a troll of course. I think its more obvious that you cannot accept truth. They totally switched their ideas. They are looking for partnerships or want to develop for partners, thats it.
> 
> This means components for others and not HSC per se. No proof eh?
> 
> 1) Ziering said a few months back we will have some informations in 4 weeks!
> 
> Did we get them? No we didnt
> 
> 2) They themselves used the Earthquake as an excuse for delays!
> ...


  :Smile:  You really are SLOW. Aren't you?

----------


## krewel

> Right i am a troll of course. I think its more obvious that you cannot accept truth. They totally switched their ideas. They are looking for partnerships or want to develop for partners, thats it.
> 
> This means components for others and not HSC per se. No proof eh?
> 
> 1) Ziering said a few months back we will have some informations in 4 weeks!
> 
> Did we get them? No we didnt
> 
> 2) They themselves used the Earthquake as an excuse for delays!
> ...


 Unbelievable. U still do not accept the fact that u were wrong. Normally I dont say things like this, but you are incredibly stupid.  There are scientists who spent many years of their life learning and understanding dermatology and u or actually most of us do not know shit about this. Now you read some Wikipedia articles and u think ur a really smart guy huh?

1. Ari no photos? Who cares? Histogen did.
2. What has Gho's thing (which has a higher possibilty to be a scam than histogen) to do with histogen?
3. What the **** are you talking about? The release date's still there.
Even if not, it can be because:
 - They just delayed, u can't predict anything in science.
 - They just redesigned their homepage, just as they said. Or there could have been a problem with their Database or it could be anything. But u don't know shit about this. Ur just a stubborn idiot.

The whole board is pointing at u. Isn't that strange? We're probably all stupid and blind. Thank god we got someone like you..

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well only because "everyone" is pointing at me it doesnt mean everyone is right :-)

Also where are the news Ziering wanted to give us a few months back.

The release date is not there anymore nor are the clinical trial sheets. What you see is your firefox cache or something thats IT.

Where are the infos of the first batch of people who had the first HSC injections done? Where are they. You see we dont get any answers or anything from this. And if you read at the actual histogen sit, well you can pretty much estimate what they are gonna do next.

They do everything except putting HSC onto the market.

And here we have the prime example of WHY it was important to stress out that we need many options instead of just putting our bets on one thing, like almost everyone here does.

----------


## mlao

> Well only because "everyone" is pointing at me it doesnt mean everyone is right :-)
> 
> Also where are the news Ziering wanted to give us a few months back.
> 
> The release date is not there anymore nor are the clinical trial sheets. What you see is your firefox cache or something thats IT.
> 
> Where are the infos of the first batch of people who had the first HSC injections done? Where are they. You see we dont get any answers or anything from this. And if you read at the actual histogen sit, well you can pretty much estimate what they are gonna do next.
> 
> They do everything except putting HSC onto the market.
> ...


 Why don't we let Spencer find out about it!

----------


## Kiwi

> Why don't we let Spencer find out about it!


 Don't you understand!!! 

We don't need Spencer now we have dorkens and his pal aint got no mojo... Combined they know more about Histogen then Histogen know about Histogen.

----------


## krewel

> Well only because "everyone" is pointing at me it doesnt mean everyone is right :-)
> 
> Also where are the news Ziering wanted to give us a few months back.
> 
> The release date is not there anymore nor are the clinical trial sheets. What you see is your firefox cache or something thats IT.
> 
> Where are the infos of the first batch of people who had the first HSC injections done? Where are they. You see we dont get any answers or anything from this. And if you read at the actual histogen sit, well you can pretty much estimate what they are gonna do next.
> 
> They do everything except putting HSC onto the market.
> ...


 Dear lord.. The pages are STILL there, but they can (AT THE ****ING MOMENT) only be accessed via page search because they are restructuring their page design a bit, as Histogen already said. How do you think this works?  Everything's there, status and release date. I just opened it with another browser for you. Get some love from mama, seriously.

Let's just say theyre finished? Whats the point of not announing that they're dead and lying to a caller? I mean you can still invest in Histogen, ever heard something about the law?

Your trashtalk is not better than all the Gho critics. They think Gho can just put up a scam in EUROPE, where u got the hardest business laws and where they **** up ur life if they catch u scaming. But ok.. I'm finished here, believe what u want to believe. You probably watch too much TV..

----------


## GBB

> Don't you understand!!! 
> 
> We don't need Spencer now we have dorkens and his pal aint got no mojo... Combined they know more about Histogen then Histogen know about Histogen.


 
EPIC statement!

----------


## mlao

> Don't you understand!!! 
> 
> We don't need Spencer now we have dorkens and his pal aint got no mojo... Combined they know more about Histogen then Histogen know about Histogen.


 LOL! Still Spencer could end this in a New York minute.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Of course he could and i really wanna see it. Tissue Engineering, is the future now and for a long time, mark my words here

----------


## Kiwi

Meanwhile Aderans get another 50M from investors. Obviously the investors didn't do their due diligence, for if they had then they would have seeked advice from dorkens who would have advised against it :P

http://www.aderansresearch.com/pdfs/...ChronAug11.pdf

----------


## Kiwi

> Of course he could and i really wanna see it. Tissue Engineering, is the future now and for a long time, mark my words here


 Gho? He's just some guy that does FUE, his trick is that he leaves a little bit of follicle behind in the hope that it might grow back,... I haven't seen any hard evidennce that Gho's technique works.

No macro. No deal.

----------


## RichardDawkins

You know for how long Ari is doing its research right now? A decade? More then a decade. Hell even Lauster wasnt taken that long to create a "follicle"

Still this injectible solution dream.

Btw just to inform you, there is a point in life, where hair follicles cant be regenerated anymore, when there cycle has come down to an finish, an end. And then you will still need something called HSC

----------


## krewel

> You know for how long Ari is doing its research right now? A decade? More then a decade. Hell even Lauster wasnt taken that long to create a "follicle"
> 
> Still this injectible solution dream.
> 
> Btw just to inform you, there is a point in life, where hair follicles cant be regenerated anymore, when there cycle has come down to an finish, an end. And then you will still need something called HSC


 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahaahahahahahah  ahahahahahaahah

----------


## amadeus

@RichardDawkins, it would be much more productive to just stick to the facts when discussing this potential treatment. You have a tendency to post your personal assumptions as fact, but the truth is you dont know anything when it comes to how the company is actually moving ahead with this product. I dont see the need for you to post in such an aggressive way and constantly battle other posters on this forum. Why don't you just try to stick to the facts and stop pushing your paranoid assertions on everybody.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Wrong there is a point of no return where your hair cycle will come to an end and cant be reactivated anymore

----------


## Jundam

> Wrong there is a point of no return where your hair cycle will come to an end and cant be reactivated anymore


 Yes, that "point of no return" would be the pesky thing that is popularly referred to as death.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Dead things cant be ressurected anymore dont forget that

----------


## Follicle Death Row

A cell based solution will absolutely work. I believe in what Ari and Replicel are doing. It might take some time to perfect but the science supports it. If you do a small bit of research you'll see that it will work once they've mastered it.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I still have more confidence in Histogen's solution than any other one.  It has been known for years that WNT's lead to increased hair growth and finally some one is doing something with that knowledge.  I don't really have that much confidence in Aderans.  They've been at Phase II for a while now and haven't had good results.  Plus, they're affiliated now with Bosley and we know what an unethical piece-of-shit company Bosley is.  I really wish Histogen would get the funding that Aderans does.  Actually, that's why I think that Aderans teamed up with Bosley, cus they needed the money and unfortunately Bosley makes a ton of money peddling their garbage treatments.  I think Replicel has much more potential to succeed than Aderans does.  I looked at Replicel's website and they have several highly-regarded hair researchers and doctors as part of their team.  However, I still like Histogen best of all because they're attempting to recreate the signals that grow hair in the first place.  With Aderans and Replicel, a biopsy is involved and that leaves a scar.  So if the procedure turns out to be less than good, then you're left with a permanent scar on your head.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

I don't like Bosley being involved either but that doesn't mean that Aderans solution will be rubbish. Like Replicel they're essentially looking to copy your donor hairs and give you loads on top of your scalp. Ultimately this would be the ideal solution but it's going to take some time to master it. Replicel are looking to take just 1 4mm diameter punch. If it works really well I'd take that. I think it will be possible to make that punch smaller or even take a few 1mm punches eventually.

I like what Histogen are doing. It would be fantastic if they could correct the signalling pathway. In the early days of Histogen and Aderans a good solution maybe a synergistic use of both to maintain hair and to grow new hair. Perhaps even FUE would have a place to refine the hairline and fill in stubborn patches.

As the technology progresses you'd hope it would make FUE redundant. I think cell based solutions ala Aderans and Replicel will ultimately be more effective because in theory at least the limit to the amount of hair you can generate is mind boggling plus once it's growing it's there for good and a repeat treatment is not needed. As for Histogen we don't know. I suppose the upper limit in theory would be native density but treatments would have to repeated at some stage. Tough to say, might be every 5 years, or every 10 years. Could be very patient dependent though.

I'm optimistic for the results in Q1 2012. Fingers crossed.

----------


## ALLISWELL

Histogen is DEAD.....RIP......PRAY FOR ITS HSC SOULS IN PURGATORY.

----------


## Kiwi

> Histogen is DEAD.....RIP......PRAY FOR ITS HSC SOULS IN PURGATORY.


 Do you like the taste of Dawkins penis? Is that why you're talking bullshit?

----------


## RichardDawkins

Hmmm funny, people really cant live with other opinions. I ask again, where are Zierings promised news from a few months ago. Instead of answering some question or whatever he presented some hair transplant cases and thats it.

Where are ARI´s fotos, even Histogen could provide one or so. Where are they and why hasnt anyone of the Ari staff being on the Spencer Kobren Show?

Questions, QUestions and no answers. I bet my ass that people here would still stick with injectible solutions as a pipe dream when HSC would be the new standard.

I think a lot of people are spoiled by the promises from certain researchers right now.

If you would  compare tissue engineering approiaches versus injectible approaches, you would easily see that the first category is the one with the results etc.

----------


## krewel

Richard Dawkins reminds me of this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if8dDNhaea0

----------


## RichardDawkins

one of the best movies ever and both have hairs so i dont feel insulted here

----------


## krewel

> one of the best movies ever and both have hairs so i dont feel insulted here


 See, that's why u remind me of him

----------


## RichardDawkins

Knightly accolade or what? If you wanna insult me, try to use other words like your pre posters do, insulting words are always good

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> Histogen is DEAD.....RIP......PRAY FOR ITS HSC SOULS IN PURGATORY.


 Why the f*** do people post stupid shit like this?  They really devalue this whole topic and should be banned.

----------


## Jundam

> Why the f*** do people post stupid shit like this?  They really devalue this whole topic and should be banned.


 I don't think there's really all that much value in this topic to begin with. Or rather there hasn't been since Ziering was around to answer some questions in the beginning of it. Now all that remains are speculations coupled with the illiterate idiocy of RichardDawkins.

I don't think there'll be much to discuss until Q1 2012 anyway so I might as well take some time off from these boards until then. Let's see if my curiosity can make it that long.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Thank you for the compliment here Judam, thank you

----------


## Mojo Risin

> Thank you for the compliment here Judam, thank you


 Dude you must be such a lonely ****** in real life.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Thanks i am queer, a ******. Thank you guys, very mature  :Big Grin:

----------


## NeedHairASAP

repost from another forum....


» http://google.brand.edgar-online.com...yid%253d386723
» 
» Scroll down and READ 
» 
» 
» Excerpt
» 
» Competitors in the hair restoration and related fields may currently
» offer, or may develop, superior hair loss solutions which could limit the
» market for our technology.

well... 
seems like histogen is out of business and this excerpt is sooooo wrong
now we have only follica aderans and replicel
god help us

----------


## CVAZBAR

Hey Joe, if you have any info on Histogen and the current trials, try and report this on the show so we can end this bullshit once and for all. I know you have connections with Spencer, so if any of you have this info, please report this when you can. We all want to know if Histogen is still up and moving! Thanks!

----------


## krewel

> repost from another forum....
> 
> 
> » http://google.brand.edgar-online.com...yid%253d386723
> » 
> » Scroll down and READ 
> » 
> » 
> » Excerpt
> ...


 I think it's because of Replicel.

----------


## mlao

Where in the posted link does it mention Histogen. The article is about 
Tricho-Science which if I am not wrong is now Replicel.
Either I am thick or blind.

----------


## gutted

well if this is true, then i guess its good news too....at least they seem to be confident that thier "competitors" will be successfull for sure, for them to pull out like this, good times ahead, i say.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Where in the posted link does it mention Histogen. The article is about 
> Tricho-Science which if I am not wrong is now Replicel.
> Either I am thick or blind.


 
ya isn't replicel in vancouver? histogen isn't

again, this is a repost but it came across as talking about histogen no?

----------


## mlao

No if you read thru it, There is no mention of Histogen!

----------


## GBB

> repost from another forum....
> 
> 
> » http://google.brand.edgar-online.com...yid%253d386723
> » 
> » Scroll down and READ 
> » 
> » 
> » Excerpt
> ...


 Hilarious.... :Smile:  Just what I need at the beginning of a long week... :Smile:

----------


## RichardDawkins

This does wonder you? Even in the field of possible Hair multiplication or rejuvenation, there is only place for one or two. So right now you have to choose btween going through or leave the field.

----------


## Kiwi

Omg I just read online that Gho has admited that HST does NOT work. It's over folks. No more Gho.

----------


## Kiwi

> repost from another forum....
> 
> 
> » http://google.brand.edgar-online.com...yid%253d386723
> » 
> » Scroll down and READ 
> » 
> » 
> » Excerpt
> ...


 Other then the fact that you've obviously never seen a business plan this proves only that you're an idiot and that you too like the taste of dorkins penis  :Big Grin:

----------


## krewel

> Omg I just read online that Gho has admited that HST does NOT work. It's over folks. No more Gho.


 Where did you read that?

----------


## Samiam

> Where did you read that?


 He's just playing because dawkins keeps bashing histogen and praising GHO.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Other then the fact that you've obviously never seen a business plan this proves only that you're an idiot and that you too like the taste of dorkins penis


 
ya I know I re read the thread I found it in and the business plan. false alarm: this is replicels filing and not histogens..... and what I posted isn't a business plan, idiot.


not sure why you guys hate gho... he is the one of the few surgeons actively trying to help us... and the only surgeon to really improve surgery since FUE.... anyway I am going to be a extreme nw7 so even gho can't help me... so I'm all for other advancements but Ghos HST is a good start I dont know why everyone bashes it... I doubt much else comes out in the next 3-5 years

----------


## Kiwi

> ya I know I re read the thread I found it in and the business plan. false alarm: this is replicels filing and not histogens..... and what I posted isn't a business plan, idiot.
> 
> 
> not sure why you guys hate gho... he is the one of the few surgeons actively trying to help us... and the only surgeon to really improve surgery since FUE.... anyway I am going to be a extreme nw7 so even gho can't help me... so I'm all for other advancements but Ghos HST is a good start I dont know why everyone bashes it... I doubt much else comes out in the next 3-5 years


 I love the Gho idea if it works. my understanding is that it's just FUE where he leaves enough of the follicle to grow back, this is great for the follicles that don't get cut in half and killed in the process. I think you need to appreciate that.

I think if Cooley gets the same growth rate it'll be a safer bet since he won't be cutting - he'll be plucking.

The hard fact is we don't know yet. We haven't seen the macro photography evidence we need to know for sure. From either of them.

Histogen is fine. Dorkins is just having a moment trying to desperatly pressure them to provide us feedback. I've thought of doing it but I'm not such a selfish douche bag.

----------


## stillinHS1994

Oh god I hope histogen is fine

----------


## Kiwi

> Oh god I hope histogen is fine


 Why wouldnt it be?

Because Dorkins is spitting the Dummy lying to everybody here so that he can get a response from Histogen. Don't worry mate, Dorkins is just being a ****tard... he's undone all the respect that I had been accumulating for him.

----------


## uninformed

> Why wouldnt it be?
> 
> Because Dorkins is spitting the Dummy lying to everybody here so that he can get a response from Histogen. Don't worry mate, Dorkins is just being a ****tard... he's undone all the respect that I had been accumulating for him.


 It's sad how he tries to cause panic when everyone here's pretty much on the same boat

----------


## Losing_It

> Oh god I hope histogen is fine


 Until we hear anything official we should all just relax and go on leading our lives.  Having a look at their website, they are still promoting  HSC on their main home page, investor page and their business opportunity page. We should all know whats happening in the next few months anyways. My guess is that the patent case was the main reason why everything was delayed for such a long time. For a small company such a case could have killed them so it was no use pushing ahead if you don't have any clarity.

----------


## Kiwi

> Until we hear anything official we should all just relax and go on leading our lives.  Having a look at their website, they are still promoting  HSC on their main home page, investor page and their business opportunity page. We should all know whats happening in the next few months anyways. My guess is that the patent case was the main reason why everything was delayed for such a long time. For a small company such a case could have killed them so it was no use pushing ahead if you don't have any clarity.


 Well put! And refreshing too  :Smile: 

P.S **** you dorkins

----------


## LFC

Yer dorkins is an arrogant knobhead, even Spencer thinks he's a physco 

Go away dorkins - no one wants you here and you know nothing!

----------


## UK_

Hi Guys!  Been on holiday for a while..

Did I miss anything?

----------


## Jundam

Just bitter people bickering with less bitter people. The only news worth taking in that you might have missed is the Replicel interview.

On a funny note; People are now using tit-growing cream on their heads as a result of the research that Yale published recently.

----------


## krewel

> On a funny note; People are now using tit-growing cream on their heads as a result of the research that Yale published recently.


 One of those guys, that google their symptoms when being sick. Wikipedia seems to replace medschool haha

----------


## UK_

@Judnam - was your post based on the following?:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/233885.php

stem cell signals (sounds like more affirmation of Histogens procedure to me)

Ill be sure to check out the Replicel interview!

----------


## Jundam

Yeah I think I read a more extensive version somewhere else but that seems to contain all the necessary information about it.

----------


## Losing_It

So it seems we will be getting some kind of info during ISHRS meeting which will be the next few days. 

http://www.ishrs.org/PDF/ISHRS_19thA...ogram_2011.pdf

No abstracts. Pity no abstracts

----------


## CVAZBAR

I sent an email to Dr. Gail Naughton around 3 weeks ago, asking if the trials were in progress and up to date. I made it clear that I was not expecting any results at this point and just wanted to know if they started trials. I'm not sure what to make of her reply but at least it seems Histogen is still alive ha.  

Hi, CVAZBAR
Good to hear from you.
As I write this my clinical director and I are on our way to Alaska for the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery annual meeting where our two year follow up hair study and some new applications of our product will be presented by both Dr. Craig Ziering and Dr. Neil Sadick. Our IND is under review in Asia and we are finalizing our regulatory strategy for North America. We will send out a formal statement shortly and remain excited by the level of interest in HSC from both clinicians and patients.
Please stay in touch.
Take care,
Gail

----------


## Penny Stock

IND =Investigational New Drug Application

Clinical Trials--Drug studies in humans can begin only after an IND is reviewed by the FDA and a local institutional review board (IRB). The board is a panel of scientists and non-scientists in hospitals and research institutions that oversees clinical research.

It means they havent started the trials as yet.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I see how Dr. Sadick is going to explain how HSC can be used with hair transplantation, but I REALLY hope their main goal is still to use HSC Complex to regrow hair WITHOUT transplantation.  I think that's why we're all interested in Histogen in the first place, because it can regrow our hair without any permanent head scarring.  
This is not related to Histogen, but still very interesting: I was previously unaware of a company called Celtigen Therapeutics, headed up by Angela Christiano, a prominent hair loss researcher.  Her company presented last year at the 7th Annual Stem Cell Summit (this is the stuff I'm really interested in): http://www.stemcellsummit.com/agenda.html.  Here are 2 good things about her methods: 1. It doesn't involve surgery and 2. It's autologous so it might not require FDA approval.  I could be wrong with the 
2nd though.  I know the link was posted somewhere else on here, but I can't find where it was posted so I figured I'd post it again.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I We will send out a formal statement shortly and remain excited by the level of interest in HSC from both clinicians and patients.
> Please stay in touch.
> Take care,
> Gail


 
it would be nice if they were excited with results and not with the interest in new hair from an injection... uh, obviously there is interest in that whether histogen had a product or not....

----------


## CVAZBAR

> IND =Investigational New Drug Application
> 
> Clinical Trials--Drug studies in humans can begin only after an IND is reviewed by the FDA and a local institutional review board (IRB). The board is a panel of scientists and non-scientists in hospitals and research institutions that oversees clinical research.
> 
> It means they havent started the trials as yet.


 Thanks Penny Stock. Well at least we got the answer everyones been looking for. Yes Histogen is still alive and No they haven't started trials.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Well i dont care if Spencer thinks that i am a Psycho. Only because someone has another opinion doesnt mean that the person is a Psycho.

And as i said why did they lie about the earthquake and told us their trials are delayed. Well we have spetembre and they havent started. So dont hate the player then.

Btw congratuations guys, one of the biggest Morons (IronMan) quoted you :-)

----------


## UK_

> Well i dont care if Spencer thinks that i am a Psycho.


 ahahahaa did he actually say that?  :Big Grin:

----------


## RichardDawkins

Dont know but according to IronMan and his second Accounts ;-)

----------


## Penny Stock

Not me sorry fellas.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Dont know but according to IronMan and his second Accounts ;-)


 He didn't say you were a psycho. He just seemed concerned, since he thinks you need help. It seems he's  also thinking of banning you but if you tone it down I'm sure he won't.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Ok now i am really interesting in listening to this segment. :-) Its funny because i was on vacation the last few days.

But its funny i dont attack people with "**** you" like Kiwi does and i am the psycho because i raise vaild Histogen questions :-) Great

Hello Spencer greetings from me then

Excuse me for changing my opinion on Histogen, how DARE i to question infinite delays and changings on the homepage on vital parts, what am i thinking here. :-)

Good Lord how could i even think about saying that Tissue Engineering IS THE FUTUR and not some injetible Minox substitute.

But tell me what should i tone down? Show me some examples

Oh and only for you Kiwi, you mock me for sying Gho is good, but how come that your beloved Histogen is on a Tisue Engineering Congress?

----------


## RichardDawkins

Hello McFly anyone home?

Hey you guys opened the can of worms here, so where is it?

Where are the updates from the August tissue Engineering Congress? Instead of getting somehing like " Wow we will kick Ass" we got a restructuring of the homepage with clinical trial data vanishing into thin air.

Hey Kiwi you spoke out like no one else, so how do you explain it? Preferably without using the F-Word to much, thanks in advance

----------


## abb83

> I sent an email to Dr. Gail Naughton around 3 weeks ago, asking if the trials were in progress and up to date. I made it clear that I was not expecting any results at this point and just wanted to know if they started trials. I'm not sure what to make of her reply but at least it seems Histogen is still alive ha.  
> 
> Hi, CVAZBAR
> Good to hear from you.
> As I write this my clinical director and I are on our way to Alaska for the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery annual meeting where our two year follow up hair study and some new applications of our product will be presented by both Dr. Craig Ziering and Dr. Neil Sadick. Our IND is under review in Asia and we are finalizing our regulatory strategy for North America. We will send out a formal statement shortly and remain excited by the level of interest in HSC from both clinicians and patients.
> Please stay in touch.
> Take care,
> Gail


 Shall we really believe you that she replied to you? the presidents of the company? she's not busy at all? she would say hi CVAZBAR, instead of your name as in Hi Joel... or if thats your name you think she would say it all in caps?

----------


## Sogeking

> Shall we really believe you that she replied to you? the presidents of the company? she's not busy at all? she would say hi CVAZBAR, instead of your name as in Hi Joel... or if thats your name you think she would say it all in caps?


 You are reaching.

CVAZBAR just put his nickname instead of his real name. When you send an email from an email adress that goes like this: name.surname@yahoo.com. Then I think you can see how she knows his name. Now it is possible that this mail was written by her secretary or someone else and made to look like its from her. We can't tell.

But I really don't think that CVAZBAR or anyone for that matter would make up an email that doesn't divulge anything impotant. What possible gain does he have from this?

----------


## abb83

> You are reaching.
> 
> CVAZBAR just put his nickname instead of his real name. When you send an email from an email adress that goes like this: name.surname@yahoo.com. Then I think you can see how she knows his name. Now it is possible that this mail was written by her secretary or someone else and made to look like its from her. We can't tell.
> 
> But I really don't think that CVAZBAR or anyone for that matter would make up an email that doesn't divulge anything impotant. What possible gain does he have from this?


 then i am sorry :s there's a lot of people full of bs. i regret my previous post if thats the case. i actually emailed her a long time ago and never got back.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Sogeking is 100% right. I used my nickname posting it here but she replied to me by my name. Yes, maybe it was her secretary as I cannot prove otherwise. I also understand if nobody wants to believe it. All I can say is that I don't bullshit and have no reason to do it. It's up to you guys whether you want to believe or not.

----------


## abb83

> Sogeking is 100% right. I used my nickname posting it here but she replied to me by my name. Yes, maybe it was her secretary as I cannot prove otherwise. I also understand if nobody wants to believe it. All I can say is that I don't bullshit and have no reason to do it. It's up to you guys whether you want to believe or not.


 nah thx for sharing mate

----------


## Dasani

So I'm guessing everyone is just tired of posting speculation and we're all just waiting for data from all the different clinical trials to come in Q1 2012?? haha

----------


## clandestine

Pretty well, yes, After 122 pages there is only so much you can speculate before some real trial data comes in.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Spencer said he will post info soon on Histogen, Acell etc from the meetings in Alaska.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Spencer said he will post info soon on Histogen, Acell etc from the meetings in Alaska.


 I'm going to assume that Histogen's results were good. otherwise rassman would have already blogged about it being a failure... him omitting any mention of it is, sadly, a sign that it went well.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> I'm going to assume that Histogen's results were good. otherwise rassman would have already blogged about it being a failure... him omitting any mention of it is, sadly, a sign that it went well.


 Let's hope it is. I'm guessing it won't be anything special, maybe just an update from the pre-trials.

----------


## Kiwi

> Let's hope it is. I'm guessing it won't be anything special, maybe just an update from the pre-trials.


 I don't know why you don't think that is special!!!

As long as they don't report back failure we're still in the green.

----------


## Sogeking

> I'm going to assume that Histogen's results were good. otherwise rassman would have already blogged about it being a failure... him omitting any mention of it is, sadly, a sign that it went well.


 Why sadly? I don't understand, a person would think you would be cheering for this to work  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: .

----------


## uninformed

> Why sadly? I don't understand, a person would think you would be cheering for this to work  .


 I think he's saying that it is sad that Dr rassman would discourage advancements like histogen and acell (hence not reviewing anything related to the next gen treatments such as histogen, aderans and replicel from alaska), but promote rubbish "treatments" like tattooing your head

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I think he's saying that it is sad that Dr rassman would discourage advancements like histogen and acell (hence not reviewing anything related to the next gen treatments such as histogen, aderans and replicel from alaska), but promote rubbish "treatments" like tattooing your head


 this is correct


cant wait for spencer's alaska update

----------


## Ronin

When's the update going to happen? Do we know?

----------


## RichardDawkins

I always wonder why Spencer needs so long to present this stuff.

You know if i would be Spencer i would blast you with such advanced the minute i got my hands on

----------


## Ronin

Not helping Dawkins.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Nor is your begging

----------


## Ronin

> Nor is your begging


 You're such a pathetic person. Please, get a life. Although I suppose trolling has become a way of life for you. xx

----------


## RichardDawkins

No i only say whats up right now, if you dont like the heat, stay away from the kitchen

----------


## Kiwi

> I always wonder why Spencer needs so long to present this stuff.
> 
> You know if i would be Spencer i would blast you with such advanced the minute i got my hands on


 Because unlike you Spencer prepares his work and doesn't jump to stupid conclusions.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Cough Cough yeah whatever you say cool story Bro

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I think he's saying that it is sad that Dr rassman would discourage advancements like histogen and acell (hence not reviewing anything related to the next gen treatments such as histogen, aderans and replicel from alaska), but promote rubbish "treatments" like tattooing your head


 maybe not so much sad. I wouldn't expect anything more out of other people or myself. We should just be aware of people's incentives.

----------


## GBB

> I sent an email to Dr. Gail Naughton around 3 weeks ago, asking if the trials were in progress and up to date. I made it clear that I was not expecting any results at this point and just wanted to know if they started trials. I'm not sure what to make of her reply but at least it seems Histogen is still alive ha.  
> 
> Hi, CVAZBAR
> Good to hear from you.
> As I write this my clinical director and I are on our way to Alaska for the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery annual meeting where our two year follow up hair study and some new applications of our product will be presented by both Dr. Craig Ziering and Dr. Neil Sadick. Our IND is under review in Asia and we are finalizing our regulatory strategy for North America. We will send out a formal statement shortly and remain excited by the level of interest in HSC from both clinicians and patients.
> Please stay in touch.
> Take care,
> Gail


 'Shortly after our most recent trip to Singapore at the end of August we decided to pull our filing and submit an IND elsewhere in Asia. Part of our concern was that a large percentage of potential participants were using Minoxidil and/or Propecia, both of which disaqualify them as patients. A minimum 6 mos wash out is required. Our plan is to conduct part of our Phase 3 trial in Singapore and give the clinicians there adequate notice before beginning it to select appropriate participants and have them stop treatment with the other hair growth drugs'

Was this a part of your email too?

----------


## CVAZBAR

> 'Shortly after our most recent trip to Singapore at the end of August we decided to pull our filing and submit an IND elsewhere in Asia. Part of our concern was that a large percentage of potential participants were using Minoxidil and/or Propecia, both of which disaqualify them as patients. A minimum 6 mos wash out is required. Our plan is to conduct part of our Phase 3 trial in Singapore and give the clinicians there adequate notice before beginning it to select appropriate participants and have them stop treatment with the other hair growth drugs'
> Was this a part of your email too?


 Nope, what I posted, it was all I got.

----------


## LFC

I'm not sure what to make of this.

But some Japanese Fellas saying on hairloss help

"I have to give you all a bad news. I got HSC injected to my scalp about 5 months ago at Akai Clinic in Tokyo, Japan. Dr. Akai told me that he is collaborating with Histogen in this research, and got the HSC before the market release. The treatment was divided into two phases. First injection and the second one roughly 6 weeks after the first one. Each treatment costed me about $2500 (315000yen), but unfortunately, it did me no good. I have also gathered info about the others who got HSC treatment from Akai from Japanese internet forum, and it seems that the consensus is that HSC doesn't work, or at least, has not yet produced the result we wanted. I suspect that the trial in Singapore is not going too well either, and that is why Histogen is not releasing information."

http://translate.google.com/tr....exblog.jp%2F&act=url  - link to japanese clinic


 :Frown:

----------


## mlao

If you read the entire thread on HLH it sounds very sketchy.
I may be wrong but how could a clinic charge that much money for a 
therapy that is still pre-clinical. The original poster (hage) has 4 posts to
his name which makes him sound a bit like a troll.
I would only trust info directly from Histogen or maybe Spencer.

----------


## Kiwi

> If you read the entire thread on HLH it sounds very sketchy.
> I may be wrong but how could a clinic charge that much money for a 
> therapy that is still pre-clinical. The original poster (hage) has 4 posts to
> his name which makes him sound a bit like a troll.
> I would only trust info directly from Histogen or maybe Spencer.


 I agree. It is BS.

Nobody is charging for pre trial operations. That would be insane. It sounds like the Japanese equivalent of Dorkins "OMG The Site has changed a link - Histogen is Dead"!!!

Or of course that poor person could have just got ripped off.

----------


## Kiwi

> If you read the entire thread on HLH it sounds very sketchy.
> I may be wrong but how could a clinic charge that much money for a 
> therapy that is still pre-clinical. The original poster (hage) has 4 posts to
> his name which makes him sound a bit like a troll.
> I would only trust info directly from Histogen or maybe Spencer.


 Seriously?!? You wouldn't trust info from Dawk boy? But he told us Histogen was dead, surely we can trust him... after all Histogen did upgrade their website!!

----------


## RichardDawkins

Lets wait for Kiwiw who dropped the F bomb on me.

Seriously how much more statemets and predictions do you need from me to see whats going on. I think everyone here should ring their clinics about HST as ****ing soon as possible

----------


## Kiwi

> Lets wait for Kiwiw who dropped the F bomb on me.
> 
> Seriously how much more statemets and predictions do you need from me to see whats going on. I think everyone here should ring their clinics about HST as ****ing soon as possible


 By HST you mean FUE hair transplant. (about 40 seconds Dawk)

----------


## RichardDawkins

I mean that you are an ignorant little kid who had a transplant in the past and is not satisfied with that, thats the reaon why you lurk around.

If you think that HST is just FUE then here is your future predicted by me " You will die bald as a nugget while the rest of the smarter people got fixed a long time ago"

If i were you i would stock up with Prozac right now, because my predictions come true in a very very accurate way.

Btw why dont you run to your transplant mill? You said yourself you want a second round, so what keeps you lurking here? Still dreaming about HSC giing you back your full head of hair?

The only thing which speaks against this poster

1) he had to pay for his treatement (not cosher if you ask me)

But the rest is plausible and scam artist in Japan are not that often like scam artist in the area of hair transplants.

In my observation Kiwi is just afraid and he rejects reality while substituting his own. You wanna know a secret, there are only two possible outcomes with histogen in this period of time and state of progress

1) shutting down and sell assetts
2) start from anew with a Gho oriented script

Thats why this market entrace segment has vanished and the trial data.

----------


## LFC

http://translate.google.com/translat....jp%2F&act=url 

- Correct Link to Japanese site *

I'm sorry Kiwi and mlao - but this site and whats going on looks very suspect to me, that something is not right

On his site Dr Akai writes that "From the U.S. Histogen's HSC, a certain amount was imported. Regenerative medicine has resumed hair with HSC."

That seems pretty clear cut to me. Now either this website site is lying? or its not the same compound histogen sent? or Hage is lying abotu his results? or histogen is not working as effectively as we had hoped for?

Yano, I feel an update or preferably an interview with spencer is really needed, to tell us if there have been delays and if so how severe they are.

----------


## Kiwi

> I mean that you are an ignorant little kid who had a transplant in the past and is not satisfied with that, thats the reaon why you lurk around.
> 
> If you think that HST is just FUE then here is your future predicted by me " You will die bald as a nugget while the rest of the smarter people got fixed a long time ago"
> 
> If i were you i would stock up with Prozac right now, because my predictions come true in a very very accurate way.
> 
> Btw why dont you run to your transplant mill? You said yourself you want a second round, so what keeps you lurking here? Still dreaming about HSC giing you back your full head of hair?
> 
> The only thing which speaks against this poster
> ...


 Damn I'm getting slow. That was about 2 minutes!!!

Dawk. Of course I'm depressed about my hair loss, just like everybody else on this forum, we simply have differing opinions which you seem to struggle with. I'm talking tech. You get personal. Ya big dork.

I also think you're an idiot for overhyping Gho (FUE) and jumping to conclusions about Histogen because of a change on their site. That is what a dork would do.

The main differences between Dawk and Kiwi;

Kiwi believes that Histogen is going to work. 
Dawk believes that Gho is going to work.

Fact is neither might work. By the way, I'm 38, and I have plenty of cash, so I can afford either of the solutions that eventually come to fruition. 

If neither come to fruition I've come to terms with the fact that I'll have no hair in the middle of my head and that I will have to keep longer hair on the sides and back. 

Now everybody knows the facts about me, you can keep on topic (future treatments) as opposed to writing more assumptions about me and your buddy Gho :P

*Update:* Oh. And I'm married. I have heaps of friends that I love. I live in a beautiful part of the world in a lovely cottage. I have a great sex life. And business is booming. Hair is the only worry in the world for this happy camper, and as I get older I'm also getting more accepting of the cards I've been dealt in life  :Smile:

----------


## RichardDawkins

The reason you have to stress the last paragraph is simple, you lack self esteem and confidence or otherwise you wouldnt use Wife, sex and money for justifying your existence here

----------


## Kiwi

> The reason you have to stress the last paragraph is simple, you lack self esteem and confidence or otherwise you wouldnt use Wife, sex and money for justifying your existence here


 Yah and now you're a trained guidance counsellor as well as a Hair Transplant industry expert.

OR maybe I just wanted to rub it in to you that I don't actually care as much as you'd like to think I do. 

As usual you miss the point and make up your own. Dork, you do have a good imagination.

And to be honest, to all the readers here, including you, I'm posting and coming back here because I care about people, I think its horrid that you'd come here and make outlandish, unproved, and speculative comments about HSC in a community of people who are probably a lot more fragile then either of us. I think it was  jerk move that was designed by you to manipulate information from Histogen. 

That is why I went from really liking you to thinking you're a selfish dickwad. Or just Dawk.

----------


## lockness

All of you who waste time and space arguing your personal issues here.  Please.  Please die?

----------


## GBB

> http://translate.google.com/translat....jp%2F&act=url 
> 
> - Correct Link to Japanese site *
> 
> I'm sorry Kiwi and mlao - but this site and whats going on looks very suspect to me, that something is not right
> 
> On his site Dr Akai writes that "From the U.S. Histogen's HSC, a certain amount was imported. Regenerative medicine has resumed hair with HSC."
> 
> That seems pretty clear cut to me. Now either this website site is lying? or its not the same compound histogen sent? or Hage is lying abotu his results? or histogen is not working as effectively as we had hoped for?
> ...


 Sorry to spoil your party Dawkins, but this site is screaming SCAM all over. You cannot charge $2500 for something that has not gone through proper clinical trials--that too in Japan.
Having said that, I don't think the pulling out of Singapore and going elsewhere refelcts greatly on Histogen either.

----------


## uninformed

> Sorry to spoil your party Dawkins, but this site is screaming SCAM all over. You cannot charge $2500 for something that has not gone through proper clinical trials--that too in Japan.
> Having said that, I don't think the pulling out of Singapore and going elsewhere refelcts greatly on Histogen either.


 who said they were pulling out of singapore?

----------


## GBB

> who said they were pulling out of singapore?


 Some guy in another forum posted an email he received from Gail Naughton.

----------


## uninformed

> Some guy in another forum posted an email he received from Gail Naughton.


 Is there an actual email? Or are they just saying it. I'd say we should wait for official word.

----------


## Jundam

There was a forum post quoting an e-mail saying that. Of course the validity of it is always unsure but according to that e-mail they were applying for an IND in another Asian country because they had trouble finding clinical subjects that had not used Minoxidil/Propecia within the last 6 months, which was a mandatory requirement for the scientific integrity of their clinical trials. 

Should the e-mail be valid this obviously means there's been a delay. How long this delay will be I don't know.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Looks like Dr Ziering will be back for an interview. Spencer said he has new stuff from Histogen and will post it soon. He also has another interview and new info from Replicel. All this was said by Spencer in TBT Show.

----------


## BoSox

> Looks like Dr Ziering will be back for an interview. Spencer said he has new stuff from Histogen and will post it soon. He also has another interview and new info from Replicel. All this was said by Spencer in TBT Show.


 Awesome! That's for the update.

----------


## uninformed

> Looks like Dr Ziering will be back for an interview. Spencer said he has new stuff from Histogen and will post it soon. He also has another interview and new info from Replicel. All this was said by Spencer in TBT Show.


 Nice! it's about time

----------


## LarryDavid

Is it possible to watch this show already?
On TBT the latest show to watch is from 9/11.

----------


## Dasani

Alright I'm thrilled to hear that! Haha this is the best time ever to be facing hair loss. ~3 more years baby (fingers crossed)  :Smile:

----------


## clandestine

~4 or 5, realistically speaking.

----------


## Philly

That's a long time. It shouldnt b the long if there's something out there.

----------


## uninformed

> That's a long time. It shouldnt b the long if there's something out there.


 Pretty sure if someone comes out right now and tells the world that there will DEFINITELY be a cure/effective treatment within 4-5 years, A LOT of people would be popping expensive champagnes and having sweet dreams tonight

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yeah but a  lot of clinics will punch the wall as well

----------


## uninformed

> Yeah but a  lot of clinics will punch the wall as well


 I'd say gho's technique would still stand strong if it is actually what he says it is. 

Anyway looking forward to the interviews, we've got a pretty bright future ahead of us - histogen, aderans, follica, replicel, gho...

----------


## RichardDawkins

I am only afraid because there will be smear campaign victims especially younger hair loss patients who will run into a mill.

But yeah you are right

----------


## Bronson

> Alright I'm thrilled to hear that! Haha this is the best time ever to be facing hair loss. ~3 more years baby (fingers crossed)


 It's not like if there's a cure they will release it Jan 1st 2015.  It could be late 2015 and that's IF everything goes well, which in medicine it almost never does.  Don't mean to be a downer, I want it as much as anyone, just try to have a realistic view.

----------


## Ronin

> It's not like if there's a cure they will release it Jan 1st 2015.  It could be late 2015 and that's IF everything goes well, which in medicine it almost never does.  Don't mean to be a downer, I want it as much as anyone, just try to have a realistic view.


 Nah, screw that. I hate realistic views - they get me all depressed!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Conpecia

Shit. I'm right on that fringe where 2015 will be too far away and I'll have to be legitimately bald for at least a couple years. I have maybe two years of coverage left if I'm lucky. Not that I can complain too much. Luckier than most around here. Still, 2015 seems like an eternity. And that's the optimistic date. How sweet does 2020 sound... baldness might be en vogue by then lol

----------


## clandestine

At least you don't have a smaller than average head.. shaving your head bald isn't terrible. Try to imagine being bald and having a small /weirdly shaped head. Worse end of the spectrum over here, bah.  :Frown:

----------


## Kiwi

> At least you don't have a smaller than average head.. shaving your head bald isn't terrible. Try to imagine being bald and having a small /weirdly shaped head. Worse end of the spectrum over here, bah.


 So what's the deal if you have existing HT scars? 

Is it possible for plastic surgery to make them invisible? It's something I've wondered... as a person with an FUT scar.

I'm actually considering Gho for next year if Histogen or Cooley don't post results soon. To be honest I'm dubious about the duplication but the low scar factor / smaller then FUE tools sound good.

----------


## BoSox

> I'm actually considering Gho for next year if Histogen or Cooley don't post results soon. To be honest I'm dubious about the duplication but the low scar factor / smaller then FUE tools sound good.


 What about Replicel?

----------


## Kiwi

> What about Replicel?


 Something this decade would be good :P

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Something this decade would be good :P


 I need it by next weekend

----------


## Kiwi

> I need it by next weekend


 Why? You got a date?

----------


## krewel

> I need it by next weekend


 Haha! Word!

----------


## Dasani

For me I'm just hoping my current treatments last until something better comes out. I have a full head of hair because I noticed my thinning and immediately did something about it. Now I'm taking finasteride (no side effects as of 3/4 months). 9/10 people have no loss for 5 years... potential treatments such as histogen/replicel possibly 3 years away (if at very end of 2015 - 4 years, but might be available elsewhere before that). **fingers crossed** Cmon Histogen!  :Smile:

----------


## RichardDawkins

Scars will more or less stay and its difficult to get follicle negenesis on dead tissue.

An option to decrease visibility is to transplant hairs on the scar

----------


## Conpecia

> At least you don't have a smaller than average head.. shaving your head bald isn't terrible. Try to imagine being bald and having a small /weirdly shaped head. Worse end of the spectrum over here, bah.


 Yeah but I have the whole Jude Law thing going. Tall, handsome guy expected to look good and now balding. I think it's more pyschologically damning. Strangers will look at me and think, "Man, he'd be really good looking if he wasn't bald." The people I know will look at me and think, "Man, he was really good looking until he went bald." Bah. Either way I hope the cure comes soon for both of us.

----------


## Ronin

> Yeah but I have the whole Jude Law thing going. Tall, handsome guy expected to look good and now balding. I think it's more pyschologically damning. Strangers will look at me and think, "Man, he'd be really good looking if he wasn't bald." The people I know will look at me and think, "Man, he was really good looking until he went bald." Bah. Either way I hope the cure comes soon for both of us.


 Dude lots of people would give up hair for being tall and handsome! Stop whining!  :Big Grin:

----------


## HairTalk

Any word on when a rep. of Histogen is next to be interviewed? Been a while since we last heard from the company about its work on H.S.C.

----------


## Flowers

I've decided if needed, I'll just transplant a decent hairline and wear a high quality piece to cover the top. No shame in my game

----------


## elvispresley

> I've decided if needed, I'll just transplant a decent hairline and wear a high quality piece to cover the top. No shame in my game


 sorry for the ignorance, but  i would like to know if there are PIECES made specially for the zone of the crown , and if u have some link or some info about it  :Smile:  thx a lot

----------


## Dasani

Yeah I'm also curious to hear more from Histogen. I thought I remembered reading a little while ago that we could expect to hear more from Histogen soon.  :Smile:

----------


## uninformed

> Yeah I'm also curious to hear more from Histogen. I thought I remembered reading a little while ago that we could expect to hear more from Histogen soon.


 Spencer said that histogen interview will probs be put up this week, and other presentations from replicel and dr cooley on acell are also on the way too.

----------


## Conpecia

> Dude lots of people would give up hair for being tall and handsome! Stop whining!


 I agree, all I'm saying is it's worse to go bald if you're good-looking. An ugly guy goes bald, meh, wasn't really gonna get anywhere with looks to begin with, so why worry about hairloss?

----------


## mlao

> I agree, all I'm saying is it's worse to go bald if you're good-looking. An ugly guy goes bald, meh, wasn't really gonna get anywhere with looks to begin with, so why worry about hairloss?


 That is the most self-centered, ignorant statement I have ever read on this forum. Get lost you troll.

----------


## mlao

> That is the most self-centered, ignorant statement I have ever read on this forum. Get lost you troll.


 I forgot to add arrogant as well!

----------


## whynot

Yeah. Wow. Welcome to the leper colony, ya jerk.

----------


## Jundam

Wallowing in self-pity and being a **** about it. Maybe your hair needs to go for you to gain some perspective, Conpecia.

----------


## Flowers

> sorry for the ignorance, but  i would like to know if there are PIECES made specially for the zone of the crown , and if u have some link or some info about it  thx a lot


 Well maybe my wording was wrong seeing as how you capitalized "pieces". So to clarify; something resembling real hair to cover a bald spot with

----------


## uninformed

For all of you worried about histogen's thinking of using the HSC to aid transplants... They were obviously talking about another product. Here's the official word - 




> but the final result of the transplant procedure may be more successful byimproving the quality and health of the newly transplanted follicles and hairs. The aim of this research was toexamine a naturally-secreted, embryonic-like human cell conditioned media (hCCM) as a holding solution (FHS, orFollicular Holding Solution) for follicles from extraction to transplant


 Source - http://www.scribd.com/doc/67052977/I...1-Alaska-Final

They have no changed directions, although I don't think there's any significant new info on there either

----------


## Pate

> For all of you worried about histogen's thinking of using the HSC to aid transplants... They were obviously talking about another product. Here's the official word - 
> 
> 
> 
> Source - http://www.scribd.com/doc/67052977/I...1-Alaska-Final
> 
> They have no changed directions, although I don't think there's any significant new info on there either


 Great, thanks for the link! Just what I was waiting for. The HSC update is on p26-27. Pity there was no formal assessment of efficacy at 2 years, I think most of us were hanging out for that. I know I was.

I like the idea of another set of injections at 6 weeks to "capture more follicles in an inductive state".

We are still going to have to wait a long time before we know if this is going to work or not, though. 

In the meantime I look forward to Spencer's interview...

----------


## Conpecia

> That is the most self-centered, ignorant statement I have ever read on this forum. Get lost you troll.


 


> I forgot to add arrogant as well!


 


> Yeah. Wow. Welcome to the leper colony, ya jerk.


 


> Wallowing in self-pity and being a **** about it. Maybe your hair needs to go for you to gain some perspective, Conpecia.


 Wow. What a bunch of trigger-happy, know-it-all assholes. Jundam, you want perspective, pal? I spent the bulk of my first 18 years on this planet a tall, fat, shy, awkward, Monty Python-obsessed UGLY duckling who didn't even kiss a girl until college. And when I was 18, the absolute LAST thing I gave a **** about in life was my receding hairline. That anxiety didn't hit me until my early 20's, when people suddenly started saying, "Hey, you're a handsome guy. I'll GIVE YOU MONEY to wear this coat and stand around while this woman takes pictures of you. I'll throw in the coat, too." 

Since you three are apparently too reactionary/moronic to connect the dots: 

_"Looking good" is how I put food on the god damn table and pay the bills._ 

And, unfortunately for me, in the minds of consumers, looking good = having a full head of hair.

So don't give me _any_ bullshit about whining, ignorance, arrogance, or the like unless you're in the same boat. Tell me, Mlao, how exactly does your hair loss affect your desk job, or whatever the **** you do? Quantify it in dollars. Enlighten me. Oh, so it has no correlation at all to your ability live a prosperous, happy life, and you're just a vain bastard snooping around the baldness forums like the rest of us, eh?

In no way did I intend to imply that anyone on this forum was ugly, or that _only_ good-looking people should worry about hair loss. The point I was trying to make without spilling out every detail of my life's story was that, in my opinion, and from my experience on both ends of the handsome fence, an actor/model/person-socially-expected-to-have-a-full-head-of-hair, has, in addition to the exact same psychological worries any balding man has, an _external_ loss when MPB strikes, and perhaps it's a harder fall than simply losing your locks when you're fixing MacBooks for a living. Does baldness still suck in either case? Of course. Is it measurably worse for one than the other? Rudimentary logic seems to dictate that it is. 

In other words: Get the **** off my back, you narrow-minded, conclusory ****s. I'll not speak on this issue again. Moving on:





> Pity there was no formal assessment of efficacy at 2 years, I think most of us were hanging out for that. I know I was.
> 
> I like the idea of another set of injections at 6 weeks to "capture more follicles in an inductive state".


 I'm totally on board with giving more injections at the 6 week mark. The positives I'm taking from this update are that it's still safe and the regrown hairs are persisting at the 2 year mark. Wonder what the prerequisites are for giving a "formal assessment of efficacy"...

----------


## stillinHS1994

U said that when u were 18 the last thing u cared about was your receding hairline. So what your saying is that you started losing hair when you were 18? In other words wat nw are u conpecia? If u dont mind me asking...btw do u have a degree of some sort that you can make money with if the whole modeling thing doesnt work out ...cuz I wuld have to agree..that sux if u make your living with your looks

----------


## mlao

Conpecia this is what you said;

"I agree, all I'm saying is it's worse to go bald if you're good-looking. An ugly guy goes bald, meh, wasn't really gonna get anywhere with looks to begin with, so why worry about hair loss?"

I was in commissioned sales and as I lost hair I became very self conscious about it and when guys I worked with would comment on it, it would ruin my day and  effect my confidence when it came to dealing with customers.

For your information as well, I have been out of work for over two years and a lot of it has to do with the psychological pain caused by my hair loss. 

I have never considered myself "good looking" but when someone says that a person like me doesn't have to worry about it because I wasn't going to get anywhere with my looks I have a right to get pissed off.

And if you want a little more info on my life the people I worked and went to school would sometimes tell me I was ugly to my face. I spent my first 5 years out of high school working a boring job, going home eating dinner and falling asleep to TV. No dates, no girlfriends. Suffice to say no has ever asked me to  be a male model.

Hair loss effects us "ugly guys" just as much as the handsome people of this world and in some instances maybe more because we were never considered good-looking!

So if I offended you I'm sorry, but your statement offended me.

----------


## Pate

> I'm totally on board with giving more injections at the 6 week mark. The positives I'm taking from this update are that it's still safe and the regrown hairs are persisting at the 2 year mark. Wonder what the prerequisites are for giving a "formal assessment of efficacy"...


 I know it wasn't part of the planned study, but it seems strange. If they already needed to look at the treatment area for the safety evaluation, it doesn't seem a big step to just take a photo and count the hairs as well.

There's something else that doesn't add up here either. That's the second time I've seen the claim effects were seen within 2mm of the injection site, but you simply cannot grow 110 new hairs like Subject 009 in a circle of radius 2mm.

2mm radius is an area of 0.125 square cm or one eighth of a sq cm. If a non-balding human has 200-300 hairs per sq cm, that's only 25-40 hairs in 0.125 sq cm. So how could Subject 009 grow around three times his original pre-balding hair density? It's surely not possible.

Even 25 hairs per 2mm radius seems too high. Why would they be talking about a second set of injections if the first one 100% cured baldness in the affected area?

----------


## krewel

Well, how do you think women feel about Hair Loss? Actually I don't even want to know, must be horrible.

----------


## mlao

> Well, how do you think women feel about Hair Loss? Actually I don't even want to know, must be horrible.


 Agreed!
I hope since Histogen is run by a women that their research is focusing on women as well as guys.

----------


## Jundam

> Blablabla


 Are you suggesting we should have deducted that you made your living with your looks based on one idiotic statement after another containing no information even hinting at you being anything but full of yourself?

You got shit because you spewed shit. Don't put this on anybody else.

----------


## jak385

> Even 25 hairs per 2mm radius seems too high. Why would they be talking about a second set of injections if the first one 100&#37; cured baldness in the affected area?


 I agree completely that this definitely needs some clarification. In that report linked to for the ISHRS meeting there is a very clear statement in the results section on page 26:

"*Positive effects were seen within a 2mm distance of the 0.1cc injections, with an average of 25 new hairs being generated per injection.*"

That basically has to mean that 25 new hairs are produced within a 2mm radius right? Because if the positive effects only reached 2mm from the injection site, they couldn't be growing further out than that.

So either thats incredibly impressive and basically given enough injections over the entire scalp it would cure baldness, or I'm misunderstanding this? I know which of these two options I want it to be (baldness is cured huzzah!), and I also know which one it's more likely to be (i'm misunderstanding the findings  :Frown: ) so does anyone else understand the results/findings any better to help explain?

The only thing I can think of why they're trying more injections at six weeks is because they need to increase the diameter of positive effects because it's not cost effective for so many injections to be done over the entire scalp to produce enough hair? But if they increase the distance of new hair growth per injection then that would cause trouble for making a controlled new hairline right? This really has me confused...

----------


## stillinHS1994

^^Dude its got every1 confused

----------


## Pate

> So either thats incredibly impressive and basically given enough injections over the entire scalp it would cure baldness, or I'm misunderstanding this? I know which of these two options I want it to be (baldness is cured huzzah!), and I also know which one it's more likely to be (i'm misunderstanding the findings ) so does anyone else understand the results/findings any better to help explain?


 Logically, the only sensible conclusion is that the 2mm figure is wrong, because all the other info is self-consistent. Subject 009 could not have grown 110 hairs in a 2mm radius circle because that would be a density of around 900 extra hairs per square centimetre, compared to the normal non-balding human scalp of 200-300.

It may be that 2mm is the average figure and for some reason, Subjects 009 and 027 had a much wider radius of effect, or the 2mm figure could just be incorrect, although this is second time I've seen it in from them. Either way, 25 hairs in a 2mm radius means two things - HSC will effectively restore full hair density, but you will need a very large number of injections.

But I'm skeptical because like I said that would negate the need for the six-week follow up injections.

Spencer, if by chance you read this, please bring it up with Dr Ziering when you interview him!




> The only thing I can think of why they're trying more injections at six weeks is because they need to increase the diameter of positive effects because it's not cost effective for so many injections to be done over the entire scalp to produce enough hair? But if they increase the distance of new hair growth per injection then that would cause trouble for making a controlled new hairline right? This really has me confused...


 Well, no... the reason for the six week follow up injections is that they believe not all the follicles are in the inductive state at the same time. So HSC works on those follicles that are ready to generate hair, but six weeks later a whole bunch of new follicles may be ready to generate and they missed out on the HSC first time around, so more HSC is added.

Anyway, the acid test will be this bit:

*"In addition, initial results in subjects receiving 50 injections/treatment show safety and efficacy at the initial 6 week timepoint."*

Histogen should know within the next six months whether they have a marketable product or not, from whether this 50 injection trial restores cosmetically significant hair on a patch of scalp. If they do, the results should allow them to secure funding and then with any luck we will all be hirsuite ladykillers again.  :Big Grin:

----------


## jak385

> It may be that 2mm is the average figure and for some reason, Subjects 009 and 027 had a much wider radius of effect, or the 2mm figure could just be incorrect, although this is second time I've seen it in from them. Either way, 25 hairs in a 2mm radius means two things - HSC will effectively restore full hair density, but you will need a very large number of injections.


 Well first off, I'm gonna make it very clear that maths was never my strongest subject, but I'm gonna give this a go anyways...

Looking at the subject photos that have an actual size scale on them like this one:
[IMG]http://www.*************/hair-loss/img/uploaded/1_image776.jpg[/IMG]

You can clearly see the 2mm scale in the bottom right of each image, so assuming that the 2mm scale in the photos actually does represent 2mm scale correctly then the area of scalp shown in that picture is approximately 15mm across.

If a 4mm diameter results in 25 hairs then by my shoddy maths (anyone is free to show me how I've calculated this wrong) but a 15mm area would produce an average of 93.75 hairs (4mm x 3.75 = 15mm, so 25 hairs x 3.75 area increase = 93.75 hairs).

In the patient above he actually has 97.5 more hairs after 5 months (433 - 335.5)within a 15mm area of his scaslp so that 2mm = 25 new hairs figure actually seems correct. Assuming again i'm working this out right....

If they only did one injection per site though as I thought they had, then I have no idea where these findings are coming from spread over such an area. It seems the 25 hairs per 2mm radius may be right, but this area of positive effect being 2mm i can't see considering the posted results so far. Unless they did more than one injection or something?

----------


## krewel

We got 15mm x 15mm which mean 2,25cm&#178;. We got 97,5 additional hairs after treatment. 97,5 / 2,25 = 43,3. That means about 43,4 hairs per cm&#178;.
But you can't really calculate it in this way, because that guy already has hairs, but if we involve his existing hair, that guy reached about 192 hairs per cm&#178;. 
Should be enough I think.
So if I'm not wrong this is a success because it's not about the amount of regrown hair, it's about the total amount of hair. HSC job is not to create new follicles, it's job is to "reactivate" inactive hairfollicles. Since this guy already had 148 hairs per cm&#178;, he almost reached 200 hairs per cm&#178; what actually means he almost "reactivated" most of his follicles. I may understand this whole thing in a wrong way, but this seems logical to me, haha.

----------


## GreatSage

Anyone know or predict how much this will cost when/if it comes out? hopefully less than how much a HT costs..

----------


## Pate

> You can clearly see the 2mm scale in the bottom right of each image, so assuming that the 2mm scale in the photos actually does represent 2mm scale correctly then the area of scalp shown in that picture is approximately 15mm across.


 Good find. So the 2mm figure is clearly not right for everybody because that subject has clearly put on hair over a much larger area than a 2mm radius circle.




> If a 4mm diameter results in 25 hairs then by my shoddy maths (anyone is free to show me how I've calculated this wrong) but a 15mm area would produce an average of 93.75 hairs (4mm x 3.75 = 15mm, so 25 hairs x 3.75 area increase = 93.75 hairs).


 Your maths is not quite right for a couple of reasons including the fact that the 15mm figure is a square, not a circle. So a 4mm diameter is 0.125 sq cm as I said earlier, and 15x15mm square is 2.25 sq cm. In other words, 18 times bigger area. As krewel said 100 hairs in 2.25 sq cm is about new 40 hairs per sq cm but we don't actually know what the radius of effect was - Histogen said 2mm but that looks clearly wrong in those photos.

Also this is obviously one of the better results. Also, most of those 100 new hairs were vellus at 5 months, though from previous results released we know there was a bit of a quiet period at 5 months and things looked better at 12 months.

Long story short, HSC isn't looking like a silver bullet yet. Most guys who are noticeably thinning are going to need at LEAST a 100&#37; increase in terminal hair count to count as 'cured'. But it's still early days and these results were from only a single injection.

We still have to look forward to:

1. Multiple adjacent injections (currently happening)
2. Follow up injections (currently happening)
3. Dose ranging study - higher HSC concentration might help
4. Possible further tweaking of the mixture.

So it's not time to celebrate yet but there are grounds for cautious optimism IMO. As for cost, if it was just one set of injections I'd think it would be a fair bit cheaper than a HT. Certainly it shouldn't be more expensive, the companies involved in this field are all hinting it should be cheaper (mainly because it will be quicker and not require so many people). But obviously if we need two or three sets of injections that will drive up the cost.

And we'd probably need to get it re-done because the effect will eventually wear off. Naughton thinks it will last potentially decades, but I'm not sure (and neither is she for that matter!).

----------


## Dasani

I wasn't able to tune in to the show tonight, did Spencer mention anything about new information and/or an interview with Histogen?

----------


## uninformed

> I wasn't able to tune in to the show tonight, did Spencer mention anything about new information and/or an interview with Histogen?


 Anyone? or was there no show this week? can't find the podcast...

----------


## RichardDawkins

If there would be something groundbreaking we would already hear those segments

----------


## Kiwi

> If there would be something groundbreaking we would already hear those segments


 One could say the same about Gho mate. At least in the context of this thread...

----------


## VictimOfDHT

> Anyone? or was there no show this week? can't find the podcast...


 I'm not sure but I don't think there was a show last Sun. I checked at 7:15 pm and there was nothing on . So I dont think he was on.

----------


## RichardDawkins

This is Histogen land and not Gho land anyway Gho has been on this show alrady

----------


## HairTalk

Any update from Histogen? It's been a while, now.

----------


## Kiwi

> Any update from Histogen? It's been a while, now.


 Nope. But I'm still waiting patiently. Nobody else apart from Aderans seems to be anywhere near as close to a solution... even a partial solution.

----------


## Kampung101

> Nope. But I'm still waiting patiently. Nobody else apart from Aderans seems to be anywhere near as close to a solution... even a partial solution.


 Actually, Follica completed their phase 2 trials this summer (if I'm correct on that). Aderans is deep into their phase 2 trial and will finish it at the end of next year. So it can be argued that Follica is actually the that is closest (and if you look at the patents they've been getting, it looks like it might be more than just a partial solution).

----------


## Kiwi

> Actually, Follica completed their phase 2 trials this summer (if I'm correct on that). Aderans is deep into their phase 2 trial and will finish it at the end of next year. So it can be argued that Follica is actually the that is closest (and if you look at the patents they've been getting, it looks like it might be more than just a partial solution).


 I'm pretty sure that Follica are actually finishing Phase 1 and starting Phase 2. Are you sure you dont mean replicel? However if you are correct then I cant wait to hear the news and see the photographic results  :Smile:

----------


## Kampung101

> I'm pretty sure that Follica are actually finishing Phase 1 and starting Phase 2. Are you sure you dont mean replicel? However if you are correct then I cant wait to hear the news and see the photographic results


 No I'm pretty sure they completed phase 2. If you go to www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu and type in Follica in the search bar and then click on DE you can read the info on the trial and that it was completed in July. In addition, a caller on Spencer's recent show talked about Follica and how they completed phase 2, which Spencer confirmed.

And yes, hopefully Follica can be a little less secretive and post some photos, though I think its ultimately up to the shareholders on the info that can be released.

----------


## jak385

Do we actually know where Histogen is at right now in terms of their trials? I spent a good couple hours yesterday trying to find up to date info and found so many conflicting posts around the net. Some saying they still havn't started phase 2, some actually saying they'd finished it, some mentioning the whole delay they had because they couldn't find participants who weren't on minoxidil etc etc.

So have they actually started phase 2 properly now and I've just been looking in the wrong places for confirmation or are they being secretive about it again and nobody really knows?

----------


## HairTalk

> Nope. But I'm still waiting patiently. Nobody else apart from Aderans seems to be anywhere near as close to a solution... even a partial solution.


 Replicel, no?

----------


## HairTalk

> Do we actually know where Histogen is at right now in terms of their trials? I spent a good couple hours yesterday trying to find up to date info and found so many conflicting posts around the net. Some saying they still havn't started phase 2, some actually saying they'd finished it, some mentioning the whole delay they had because they couldn't find participants who weren't on minoxidil etc etc.
> 
> So have they actually started phase 2 properly now and I've just been looking in the wrong places for confirmation or are they being secretive about it again and nobody really knows?


 In June, 2011, Histogen began phase I/II (combined) testing of H.S.C. All data anyone currently has from them on the product is only from their pilot study on it, which was completed January, 2009.

Many of us, now, would like to know the progress of the phase I/II work.

----------


## Sogeking

MPB form the other site for hairloss posted this:



> Dear ****, 
> 
>  Thank you for your interest and message. Please excuse the delay in my response, we are working through a large number of inquiries. Although we cannot disclose clinical trial details at this time, HSC continues to progress, and we expect to have updates to share before the end of the year. 
> 
> 
> 
>  The current estimated timeframe for market introduction of HSC continues to be 2015/2016, based upon the timelines for clinical trials and regulatory approval. There is a possibility of earlier introduction in some Pan-Asian countries. Again, these are only best estimates, and more accurate timelines will be formulated as the clinical trials progress.
> 
> 
> ...


  This are supposedly not meant to be sahred around, but still it is interesting, I hope Histogen guys forgive me if they do manage to get a good treatment out.

Conclusion:
So Replicel is set for 2014 but i think 2015 is more realistic, Histogen is 2015/2016. Aderans will finish last phase 2 trial neyxt year, Follica is supposedly finished their phase 2 trials.

I really like this competition thing going on. These raises our chances a lot. Even if they all get you mediocre results at best, maybe by combining them... Maybe.

----------


## mesinadenaro

Hi everyone,
I'm new to this forum and i've fallowed every discussion.

I'm so frustrated related to the fact that all the firms are pushing and pushing back the time of their final 'product' realease. Also i'm also frustrated related to the fact that i know that even if they will find a cure - the right percentage of the cure for a complete cure of the baldness / per life won't be administrated. i think you all agree with this. Also on the other hand logically thinking their delay is somehow justified - due to the more they will test the 'cure' - the better. Explanation: They must be sure that the treted people won't develop afterwards any desease after the 'cure' administration. It's natural, it's normal, it's logical and is better for our sofety - on a longer time basis... Also a longer testing phase will keep the developing firm safe - in case of the possibility of several side effects in time.I totally understand, also i should admit i'm very frustrated due to the 'Release date': 2014/2015/2016 who knows.  A treatment TODAY, will change the lives of many people all over the world ,will boost their confidence, their hapinnes, and overall their life standard level.

If nothing happens until th end of next year - i think i will go for  a FUE - in case things get worse  :Smile: .

You've all done a great job with this site. As for 'cure ' developers even if they are so late with a thing that should be dealt with several years ago - we should be in a small percent gratefull , because they are keeping one of the human'smost important feeling up: 'hope'!

Keep in touch guys. Even if you are now depressed - I'm convinced in a few years we will be able to look again happier than ever in our mirrors.

----------


## Kiwi

> MPB form the other site for hairloss posted this:
> 
> 
>  This are supposedly not meant to be sahred around, but still it is interesting, I hope Histogen guys forgive me if they do manage to get a good treatment out.
> 
> Conclusion:
> So Replicel is set for 2014 but i think 2015 is more realistic, Histogen is 2015/2016. Aderans will finish last phase 2 trial neyxt year, Follica is supposedly finished their phase 2 trials.
> 
> I really like this competition thing going on. These raises our chances a lot. Even if they all get you mediocre results at best, maybe by combining them... Maybe.


 So when do we think Aderans and Follica will be ready for market?

Does anybody know how long phase 3 trials take?

----------


## Jundam

The duration of Phase III trials varies, but I believe it is generally between 18 and 36 months.

----------


## Sogeking

Washenik from Aderans always says 5 years, so your guess is good as any... Follica is silent as always... But with the current rate and if everything goes well for all of them 2015/2016 seems like a legit guess.

Basically in 2013 we will know if some of them work at a sufficent efficacy to continue with trials and hit market. My only worry now is the efficacy and price of this treatments. But those questions will be answered then...

This is gonna be a long wait...

----------


## uninformed

> Hi everyone,
> I'm new to this forum and i've fallowed every discussion.
> 
> I'm so frustrated related to the fact that all the firms are pushing and pushing back the time of their final 'product' realease. Also i'm also frustrated related to the fact that i know that even if they will find a cure - the right percentage of the cure for a complete cure of the baldness / per life won't be administrated. i think you all agree with this. Also on the other hand logically thinking their delay is somehow justified - due to the more they will test the 'cure' - the better. Explanation: They must be sure that the treted people won't develop afterwards any desease after the 'cure' administration. It's natural, it's normal, it's logical and is better for our sofety - on a longer time basis... Also a longer testing phase will keep the developing firm safe - in case of the possibility of several side effects in time.I totally understand, also i should admit i'm very frustrated due to the 'Release date': 2014/2015/2016 who knows.  A treatment TODAY, will change the lives of many people all over the world ,will boost their confidence, their hapinnes, and overall their life standard level.
> 
> If nothing happens until th end of next year - i think i will go for  a FUE - in case things get worse .
> 
> You've all done a great job with this site. As for 'cure ' developers even if they are so late with a thing that should be dealt with several years ago - we should be in a small percent gratefull , because they are keeping one of the human'smost important feeling up: 'hope'!
> 
> Keep in touch guys. Even if you are now depressed - I'm convinced in a few years we will be able to look again happier than ever in our mirrors.


 Welcome to the forum!

I believe this won't happen because balding people work at these companies, balding scientists work for these companies, people with bald relatives work for these companies... eventually there will be a leak, unless your formula is actually the super soldier serum that made steve rogers tall, muscular, handsome and a hectic head of locks. 

Don't worry, it's only its way :Smile: 

If spencer believes it is, so do I

----------


## CVAZBAR

People need to put to rest all timeline prediction crap. Everyday someone has a new timeline. Why don't people just let things play out. Nobody knows anything or what will happen. I want to hear it from them not people pretending to be Nostradamus.

----------


## mesinadenaro

How are you guys handling there?
I made up my mind: i'm going for a FUE in 2012 . I just cannot handle my hair loss.It's so stupid that we do not have any cure in 2011. I guess there is not so much of an interest , i do not know what to believe anymore. i do not want to hear about Propecia, minoidil (which i used), and saw palmetto, and some other existing crap so called ' cures ' for hair loss.

I do not know if it 's right or wrong , but it's the only solution that i see right now. Due to the fact that i live in Romania i shall go for a hair transplant in Turkey or Germany.I'm quite worried because even after the trasplant some old hairs migh fall . I shall ask the medic anyway.

2015-2016  seems so far away.. right now.
I do not want to depress anyone here. Keep this thread alive for all of us suffering from this bad 'gene' let's say.

Keep in touch guys!

----------


## Ronin

> How are you guys handling there?
> I made up my mind: i'm going for a FUE in 2012 . I just cannot handle my hair loss.It's so stupid that we do not have any cure in 2011. I guess there is not so much of an interest , i do not know what to believe anymore. i do not want to hear about Propecia, minoidil (which i used), and saw palmetto, and some other existing crap so called ' cures ' for hair loss.
> 
> I do not know if it 's right or wrong , but it's the only solution that i see right now. Due to the fact that i live in Romania i shall go for a hair transplant in Turkey or Germany.I'm quite worried because even after the trasplant some old hairs migh fall . I shall ask the medic anyway.
> 
> 2015-2016  seems so far away.. right now.
> I do not want to depress anyone here. Keep this thread alive for all of us suffering from this bad 'gene' let's say.
> 
> Keep in touch guys!


 Have you tried shaving / buzzing your head? Might be a good look and a refreshing change for a few years  :Smile:

----------


## mesinadenaro

Yes in the past:P. I'm exactly like a criminal who just escaped from preason and is looking for his next victim  :Smile:  .

However Until i will get to FUE i'm afraid i won't have a choice but to buzz it off..but this is a solution for the very close future.  (Not to mention the frustration that will come along those 3 month until the hair will regenerate a little bit, - friends, collegues everybody).On the other hand for the  long time we are all waiting a solution from these remarkable companies that are playing with our patience, our hopes, our happiness and our lives. As i said i do not know what to believe anymore. The fact is that this moment matters/ today not tomorrow , not 2016-2020. Of course we all keep our hopes alive but ,there is a 'but' - that goes close with our happiness , our identity and our well being.

Sorry again for spreading my feelings from this moment but due to the fact that we are all suffering from the same issue, i just felt like writing a few words. It's an issue that affects our life overall and humankind needs to struggle to find a cure for this ; a permanent cure for this damn issue.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> How are you guys handling there?
> I made up my mind: i'm going for a FUE in 2012 . I just cannot handle my hair loss.It's so stupid that we do not have any cure in 2011. I guess there is not so much of an interest , i do not know what to believe anymore. i do not want to hear about Propecia, minoidil (which i used), and saw palmetto, and some other existing crap so called ' cures ' for hair loss.


 I could not agree more with everything you said in the first paragraph.

----------


## Sogeking

I am eagerly anticipating an interview with someone from Histogen. It is possible they are struggling.

----------


## Duke

Hi!

I found some pretty interesting stuff on a german board.

http://metropolis.co.jp/files/2011/0...e-complete.pdf

This is a magazine published in Japan. Nothing special. But on page 2 there is an ad for the "Akai Medical Clinic" in which they actually offer a HISTOGEN TREATMENT! Check it out!

Regards from Germany!  :Cool:

----------


## Kampung101

> I am eagerly anticipating an interview with someone from Histogen. It is possible they are struggling.


 Its certainly possible that they are still struggling in getting clearance for the next phase of their trials. But its also possible that the trial has already begun and its just taken awhile for Spencer to upload the upcoming interview with Ziering.

----------


## share2die

one of the guy at hairsite has got reply from Japanese clinic



```
guys i sent an email to akai clinic yesterday and today they answer me this:


Good afternoon,

Thank you for your inquiry and interest in the HSC.

Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC) which is based on the products of newborn cells operating in embryonic conditions includes several kinds od growth factors and Wnt protein. It is made in Hystogen Inc. USA, has not have FDA approval, still in the phase 2. It works for hair restoration of the AGA patient.
You can find some clinical studies performed by Histogen.
( http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#20 )

You can take the HSC injection only in my clinic in Japan.
It costs 315.000 yen for 1 vials to treat 6-7cm square. HSC should be injected in the dermis with the very fine needle.
There are only around dozen vials of HSC left in my clinic now, and I am not sure when I can get HSC from Histogen next.
If you would like to have HSC injection, it is better to make an appointment soon.

Please do not hesitate to ask me if you have any questions or need assistance.
I look forward to hearing from you.

Best regards,
----------------------------------------------------
Hidemi Akai, M.D., PhD.
AKAI MEDICAL CLINIC
KNK bldg. 3F, 3-5-17 Kita-Aoyama,
Minato-ku, Tokyo, 107-0061,Japan
tel: (03) 5771-4114
```

----------


## andycanon

That's king of exciting but I with they would start selling this service overseas Europe america etc...

We are running out of hair lol

But it sounds very promising..

Not sure if 3grand euro or about 4 grand US would be a good price for 7 cubic cm.. But it depends on the result and how frequent! 

Oh I hope this process results in success soon!!

----------


## Gubter_87

I do not believe for one minute that this doctor is selling any HSC treatment.

No ethical doctor would even think about selling a treatment that has not been trialed extensively for safety and efficacy first.

So either he is an unethical doctor and risking his patients health, or he is just any random person trying to rip off people in desperation.

----------


## eqvist

Sound sick that Histogen would supply this guy whit HSC. How can he promise that it working, pics?

----------


## CVAZBAR

Histogen lags with that interview.

----------


## Kiwi

> I do not believe for one minute that this doctor is selling any HSC treatment.
> 
> No ethical doctor would even think about selling a treatment that has not been trialed extensively for safety and efficacy first.
> 
> So either he is an unethical doctor and risking his patients health, or he is just any random person trying to rip off people in desperation.


 He's not selling histogen. That much is obvious. He's ripping people off.

----------


## Dasani

Yeah that guy is just spam. Very much anticipating the interview with histogen.

----------


## Kiwi

> Yeah that guy is just spam. Very much anticipating the interview with histogen.


 There is an interview with Histogen planned? Where did you hear that?!?!

----------


## RichardDawkins

http://hairmultiplicationnews.wordpr...t-talk-part-2/

Has been said numerous times, that there will be an interview, i hope with hard questions

----------


## Kiwi

> http://hairmultiplicationnews.wordpr...t-talk-part-2/
> 
> Has been said numerous times, that there will be an interview, i hope with hard questions


 Bro. I'll believe it when I see it :P

----------


## uninformed

> http://hairmultiplicationnews.wordpr...t-talk-part-2/
> 
> Has been said numerous times, that there will be an interview, i hope with hard questions


 did you make the blog richard? The information is pretty damn good

----------


## RichardDawkins

Yes its based on the work of myself and some others who were "fed up" with how things are handled at some hair loss forums where advertising goes better then helping people

----------


## uninformed

> Yes its based on the work of myself and some others who were "fed up" with how things are handled at some hair loss forums where advertising goes better then helping people


 nice work. now people can get to filtered information without going through 300 pages of the forum. well done

----------


## clandestine

Curious when this interview is supposed to be coming out. Updates are always nice to quell a troubled mind.

----------


## Pate

http://www.law360.com/health/article...re-patent-suit

It appears the lawsuit against Histogen has been dismissed. It was expected after they won the patent ruling in June, but still great news. Hopefully they can get on with raising funds now.

Of course now SkinMedica may still appeal and screw us all over for another year or so. Histogen cannot raise money and cannot progress HSC with the threat of litigation hanging over them.

SkinMedica's CEO might do well to keep away from any large groups of balding men and women in future, cause he won't be popular for pulling this stunt. I notice he's got pretty much a full head of hair...

----------


## clandestine

Thanks for the update Pate! Good share.  :Smile:

----------


## Jundam

> http://www.law360.com/health/article...re-patent-suit
> 
> It appears the lawsuit against Histogen has been dismissed. It was expected after they won the patent ruling in June, but still great news. Hopefully they can get on with raising funds now.
> 
> Of course now SkinMedica may still appeal and screw us all over for another year or so. Histogen cannot raise money and cannot progress HSC with the threat of litigation hanging over them.
> 
> SkinMedica's CEO might do well to keep away from any large groups of balding men and women in future, cause he won't be popular for pulling this stunt. I notice he's got pretty much a full head of hair...


 Histogen has already secured funding from investors for the phase I/II clinical trial of HSC. I believe it was 10 or 15 million USD. They released that info on their website quite a while back.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Exactly, and if i recall it right, the law suit was about skin care products and not HSC

----------


## Pate

> Exactly, and if i recall it right, the law suit was about skin care products and not HSC


 No, it was about the method of using microcarrier beads to grow cells in suspension, which Histogen uses both for HSC and the skin care products. 




> Histogen has already secured funding from investors for the phase I/II clinical trial of HSC. I believe it was 10 or 15 million USD. They released that info on their website quite a while back.


 $10M it was, but that's relative chump change compared for what they will need to progress it to Phase III. Not to mention the delays caused by Histogen's time spent dealing with it. We really need this lawsuit dead and buried.

----------


## clandestine

Is there anything we can do to be proactive in this situation? Or is it more of a sit on the sidelines type of thing?

----------


## RichardDawkins

No, what we need is the promised Histogen follow up interview for clarification

----------


## Jundam

> $10M it was, but that's relative chump change compared for what they will need to progress it to Phase III. Not to mention the delays caused by Histogen's time spent dealing with it. We really need this lawsuit dead and buried.


 Of course, but the tiny detail you seem to be skipping over is that they're not at phase III. If they can prove that the results from their safety trial can be effectively repeated, and perhaps even strengthen those results, then they will have no problem attracting investors for phase III when the time comes.

As far as the lawsuit goes Histogen seems to be winning every step of the way. There's no reason to be alarmed over a potential appeal at the moment.

----------


## Kiwi

Actually I think Phase 1 is about safety and Phase 2 is about efficiancy?

----------


## HairTalk

> Actually I think Phase 1 is about safety and Phase 2 is about efficiancy?


 Histogen's current trial with H.S.C. is a combined phase I/II.

----------


## Pate

> Of course, but the tiny detail you seem to be skipping over is that they're not at phase III. If they can prove that the results from their safety trial can be effectively repeated, and perhaps even strengthen those results, then they will have no problem attracting investors for phase III when the time comes.


 Sure, unless they're still under threat of losing their patent. Investors hate uncertainty more than anything, and an unresolved lawsuit is one of the worst. So let's hope this one stays resolved.

I personally think this has already pushed Histogen back months, perhaps as much as a year. It also very nearly pushed the company into bankruptcy. Sure they managed to raise the $10M but we don't know what concessions they had to make to secure it - they could have had to offer sweeter terms than they would otherwise have needed.




> As far as the lawsuit goes Histogen seems to be winning every step of the way. There's no reason to be alarmed over a potential appeal at the moment.


 I hope you're right. But in my experience it often doesn't matter if the plaintiff doesn't have a case, they will just drag it out as long as possible to try and force the company into a settlement.

Anyway assuming there's no appeal, what Histogen need to do right now is pick up the phone and CALL SPENCER!

----------


## RichardDawkins

Thats only one thing they have to do, they should not only call Spencer, they should go the smart way and involve the hair loss community in theri process.

This would give Histogen another Protection Shield for possible problems. Its esential, so they should pull their heads out of their asses and work with the community or independent Blogs

----------


## HairTalk

Histogen certainly has a habit of closing off all communication with the public, it seems.

----------


## Kiwi

> Histogen certainly has a habit of closing off all communication with the public, it seems.


 Rubbish.

This reminds me of petulant children on a long drive asking their parents "are we there yet - are we there yet" every 5 minutes.

I'm sure when there is new news they will tell us. I personally don't want them wasting their precious time answering and re answering and then re answering again all our desperate questions on this forum - I want them to be stress free at their offices solving the hair loss problem for us!!! 

...and then when they do it... then for them to say "guys here it is - sorry it took so long... but you try and make a ****ing solution for baldness" :P

----------


## Kiwi

On average I spend 20 / 30 minutes on this site when I'm actively responding to things that relate to my interests. 

That guy from Histogen could loose hours and hours in here if he was retarded enough to answer each question. Each of those hours he spends here should be spent in the lab! But of course if you think your droll questions being answered is more important then the end result then perhaps I'm wrong.

----------


## HairTalk

No one expects weekly check-ins from a research team, but if an interview was scheduled (we're told one was, in November, 2011), it would be nice for it to occur.

----------


## Kiwi

> No one expects weekly check-ins from a research team, but if an interview was scheduled (we're told one was, in November, 2011), it would be nice for it to occur.


 I'd be really surprised if they don't all do some kind of update before christmas. I just wish I knew how _good_ the Aderans results are... next year is going to be a heck of a year.

If they all fail then its FUE in the strip scar for me :P

Richard recommends Gho would be the best for this but who else do people rate for scar revision and coverup? Umar? Cole?

What scares me is that none of these guys are registered collation surgeons.

----------


## CVAZBAR

I thought the show was live ha? Why are they showing an old show today? I was hoping we had news on Histogen.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> I'd be really surprised if they don't all do some kind of update before christmas. I just wish I knew how _good_ the Aderans results are... next year is going to be a heck of a year.
> 
> If they all fail then its FUE in the strip scar for me :P
> 
> Richard recommends Gho would be the best for this but who else do people rate for scar revision and coverup? Umar? Cole?
> 
> What scares me is that none of these guys are registered collation surgeons.


 I think Dr. Feriduni is pretty good too. He has huge experience with FUE.

----------


## stillinHS1994

Hey idk  if this had been mentioned but on histogens website it says the won the patent case against skinmedica as of November 28

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

What got me even more excited is that I saw on Histogen's website on a timeline that they are already done with Phase I.  I know that they were planning on doing Phases I and II together, but maybe they gathered enough information through their trials to satisfy the requirements of Phase I.  Histogen and Replicel really get me excited, cellular regeneration is definitely the way to go to cure hair loss and not these bullshit hair transplants.

http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm

----------


## krewel

> I'd be really surprised if they don't all do some kind of update before christmas. I just wish I knew how _good_ the Aderans results are... next year is going to be a heck of a year.
> 
> If they all fail then its FUE in the strip scar for me :P
> 
> Richard recommends Gho would be the best for this but who else do people rate for scar revision and coverup? Umar? Cole?
> 
> What scares me is that none of these guys are registered collation surgeons.


 Even if I suggest you shouldn't take anything seriously that Richard says, I'd also go for Gho. I know there are still people, who are talking bad about Gho, but they are simply far from reality. I think Gho has already proven his point.

Histogen has been quiet for a while, but that doesn't mean anything bad. It's a progress that takes a lot of time and what's the point of releasing any information about unfinished trials. There's no point in wasting time for us if they're safe on the financial side. They should put all their effort and time into their research, because at the end, all that matters is, weather it works or not.  :Smile:  Many people also don't realize that Histogens Phase I results have been quite sensational.

----------


## CVAZBAR

Have you guys heard of this? At Hairsite, they posted pics of some dude that's  undergoing the treatment. The pics are not bad at all. I think the stuff is similar to what Histogen is doing. Combination of growth factors. They are doing this in India and it's also injections like HSC. You guys should check it out or maybe someone can post the link and pics here. I'm not exactly sure how to do it.

----------


## krewel

> Have you guys heard of this? At Hairsite, they posted pics of some dude that's  undergoing the treatment. The pics are not bad at all. I think the stuff is similar to what Histogen is doing. Combination of growth factors. They are doing this in India and it's also injections like HSC. You guys should check it out or maybe someone can post the link and pics here. I'm not exactly sure how to do it.


 I can't find it. Can't you post the link in here? Just replace the "www" and ".com" by yyy or something  :Big Grin: 

By the way, does anyone know when Histogen is supposed to be finished with Phase II?

----------


## CVAZBAR

> I can't find it. Can't you post the link in here? Just replace the "www" and ".com" by yyy or something 
> 
> By the way, does anyone know when Histogen is supposed to be finished with Phase II?


 I'm using an iPod. Go to Haisite.com/hairloss forum/hair loss research and clinical trials/QR678 results. Post it here if you can.

----------


## RichardDawkins

A Forum user posted a thread from an INDIAN guy who uses an magic powder from an INDIAN company.

If Gho or Cole comes up with something backed up by science, everyone accuses them of being liars.

But when some dubious maybe Snake Oil comes up, everyone is onto this, sorry i withdraw my statement about people. I am not wondering anymore when people opt for scalp reduction etc

----------


## GBB

> A Forum user posted a thread from an INDIAN guy who uses an magic powder from an INDIAN company.
> 
> If Gho or Cole comes up with something backed up by science, everyone accuses them of being liars.
> 
> But when some dubious maybe Snake Oil comes up, everyone is onto this, sorry i withdraw my statement about people. I am not wondering anymore when people opt for scalp reduction etc


 Dude, what's with the 'INDIAN' thing?

Anyway, qr678 _IS_  BS. They put you on minox after some crap meso process. Their Web site has fake photographs, and they get really agressive if you question them about it. In short, please do not waste time on QR 678.

----------


## krewel

> Dude, what's with the 'INDIAN' thing?


 He just wants to make clear you should be careful about statements and pictures of "INDIAN" companies or guys because their claims are not really bound to laws like in Europe or the US (not really either). It's obviously a fake, I still don't get how "doctors" can be so extremely rude.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Oh my gosh. Let me guess GBB you wanted to play the race card on me right? You can stick this card where it belongs.

If you play the race card here....... ah never mind its not worth to discuss this with you

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I've read up on QR678 too.  Hey GBB, did you go in and have this treatment or did you contact the doctors that perform this procedure?

----------


## share2die

I had been to this treatment , i dont think it helps retain hair nor grow hair 
I had four course not a bit of improvement at all.

Stay away

----------


## clandestine

> I had been to this treatment , i dont think it helps retain hair nor grow hair 
> I had four course not a bit of improvement at all.
> 
> Stay away


 Dude, you might want to elaborate. What are you talking about?

----------


## Kampung101

> I had been to this treatment , i dont think it helps retain hair nor grow hair 
> I had four course not a bit of improvement at all.
> 
> Stay away


 As clandestine said, elaborate.

Are you talking about qr678 or Hisotgen? If you're talking about Histogen, unless you were apart of their first phase trial, then you aren't being truthful.

----------


## GBB

> I've read up on QR678 too.  Hey GBB, did you go in and have this treatment or did you contact the doctors that perform this procedure?


 No, I did not go in and have this treatment. I knew better  :Stick Out Tongue:  . 
I wrote to the doctors, and asked about the procedure. They quoted some big names like Apollo and IIT, which have a reputation to maintain, so naturally I was interested. They got featured on the first page of a leading Indian daily as well, riding on those names. Turns out, they exaggerated. 
The clinic just operates from the Apollo campus in Hyderabad. Apollo doesn't endorse it, and the IIT thing is not genuine either. Their behavior towards anyone who questions the legitimacy of their claims is apalling! 
If I had the time and energy, I would register a formal complaint against them to MCI and get their license cancelled.  :Stick Out Tongue:  India is really riding high on the accountability and transparency wave right now. :P :P

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

Hey GBB, thanks for the info.  But at least India has the opportunity to better experiment with new cellular procedures for hair regrowth as opposed to here in North America where the FDA and lobbyists beholdant to the pharmaceutical and medical industry help to stifle any kind of innovation with regards to hair regrowth.  Man, it just pisses me off that so many of us want to fight hair loss and we're stuck with such horseshit like Rogaine, Propecia, and Nizoral shampoo.  Hopefully these new treatments like the ones Histogen and Replicel are developing will work wonders over the ineffective garbage that we are supposed to use today to combat hair loss.

----------


## clandestine

Amen, DepressedByHairLoss. Hopefully sometime soon hair loss troubles will be a thing of the past, we've just got to be patient and stay optimistic.

----------


## doinmyheadin

Have the Histogen HSC trials begun? Can we get an update please.

----------


## CVAZBAR

> Have the Histogen HSC trials begun? Can we get an update please.


 Spencer promised an update but he's been busy. It has been a while and I don't have patience.

----------


## MMJ

Histogen in phase 2 dec 2011: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...lopecia&rank=4

----------


## HairTalk

> Histogen in phase 2 dec 2011: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...lopecia&rank=4


 I'm confused by whether this means Histogen never began phase I/II trials on H.S.C. (in June, 2011, when they were slated to) or this means they are recruiting additional subjects, in December, 2011, for that study.

We've received no word from anyone from Histogen, since summer of 2011; an update would be welcome.

----------


## Pate

> I'm confused by whether this means Histogen never began phase I/II trials on H.S.C. (in June, 2011, when they were slated to) or this means they are recruiting additional subjects, in December, 2011, for that study.
> 
> We've received no word from anyone from Histogen, since summer of 2011; an update would be welcome.


 Good find MMJ... and yeah it appears they never started the I/II trials. It was September that they said they were going to start them - according to Ziering's presentation at that conference in Alaska. So obviously it had already slipped from June to September, now again to Jan 2012 at the earliest it appears.

Which is disappointing, but these things happen. It's the main reason I don't hold much hope for the 2015 dates for any of these products. You ALWAYS get delays and once you've got them you can't catch them up, everything just slides back another six months.

But we should look on the bright side - at least they are doing the trial Ziering said they would even if it is late. Multi injections and repeated at six weeks. If HSC is going to work we should see some good cosmetic results from this trial.

Also interesting it's in the Philippines now. Guess Singapore didn't work out.

----------


## HairTalk

> Good find MMJ... and yeah it appears they never started the I/II trials. It was September that they said they were going to start them - according to Ziering's presentation at that conference in Alaska. So obviously it had already slipped from June to September, now again to Jan 2012 at the earliest it appears.
> 
> Which is disappointing, but these things happen. It's the main reason I don't hold much hope for the 2015 dates for any of these products. You ALWAYS get delays and once you've got them you can't catch them up, everything just slides back another six months.
> 
> But we should look on the bright side - at least they are doing the trial Ziering said they would even if it is late. Multi injections and repeated at six weeks. If HSC is going to work we should see some good cosmetic results from this trial.
> 
> Also interesting it's in the Philippines now. Guess Singapore didn't work out.


 Yes, but, for one thing, it now is stated the expected enrollment for the study is 59 subjects  this is quite a way down from the 200 being cited earlier in 2011.

----------


## Sogeking

> Yes, but, for one thing, it now is stated the expected enrollment for the study is 59 subjects  this is quite a way down from the 200 being cited earlier in 2011.


 Financial reasons. They had enrolled subjects which used minox and fin. Thats why they had to cancel those trials. Add the fact that they are also late. And they had to hurry and contie with the trials. It all costs money. 

So I'm sure it is financial reasons. 

However we'll see...

----------


## HairTalk

> Financial reasons. They had enrolled subjects which used minox and fin. Thats why they had to cancel those trials. Add the fact that they are also late. And they had to hurry and contie with the trials. It all costs money. 
> 
> So I'm sure it is financial reasons. 
> 
> However we'll see...


 Where did you hear they had enrolled subjects who were on minoxidil and/or finasteride?

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

I don't know about Histogen not beginning their clinical trials.  I found a timeline on their website which apparently says that they've completed Phase I already.  http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm

----------


## HairTalk

> I don't know about Histogen not beginning their clinical trials.  I found a timeline on their website which apparently says that they've completed Phase I already.  http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm


 They completed a pilot study in January of 2009. The graph to which you've provided a link has been on Histogen's Web site since at least early in 2011  that pilot study is the only thing to which it could be referring.

What we're talking about is the phase I/II trial Histogen was supposed to begin on H.S.C., during June, 2011.

----------


## Pate

> They completed a pilot study in January of 2009. The graph to which you've provided a link has been on Histogen's Web site since at least early in 2011  that pilot study is the only thing to which it could be referring.
> 
> What we're talking about is the phase I/II trial Histogen was supposed to begin on H.S.C., during June, 2011.


 Yep just to clarify, the pilot study was basically a Phase I that tested primarily safety with a single injection and secondarily efficacy.

This one is a I/II study for multiple injections and repeated injections, with both safety and efficacy as primary goals. It's also on a larger group (though not as much larger as we'd hoped).

So the Histogen timeline is starting to really slip. From memory Phase II has by far the greatest failure rate for clinical trials so if they can make it through this one there is a good chance of a product, but 2015 would seem the absolute earliest at this stage.

I wish they'd give us more info. But of these companies only Replicel is publicly-listed so they are only ones with a real desire to drive up the share price... hence IMO why Replicel have so far been the best at keeping us informed.

----------


## Sogeking

> Where did you hear they had enrolled subjects who were on minoxidil and/or finasteride?


 Ahh I can't remember, sure without evidence it doesn't really matter. I believe it was on hairsite. It was also given as reason for their late start with phase 2. But still what matters are pahse 2 trials they have started.

----------


## RichardDawkins

Hairsite  :Big Grin:  any more questions?

Believe e when people here got full heads of hair again those hairsite lulers will still talk about more Gho proof

----------


## UK_

Any news??  I thought i'd take 6 months off but I just couldn't keep away any longer :Embarrassment:

----------


## Sogeking

> Any news??  I thought i'd take 6 months off but I just couldn't keep away any longer


 Hi UK. I was wondering where you went  :Big Grin: .
Apparently they(Histogen) started phase II trials in the beggining of December with 59 participants. 
Most of us are eagerly awaiting phase I trial results from Replicel in late March. Until then there probably won't be anything to report  :Frown: .

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Hairsite  any more questions?
> 
> Believe e when people here got full heads of hair again those hairsite lulers will still talk about more Gho proof


 Well has there been anyone who has got a full head of hair from ghos treatment.

----------


## UK_

> Hi UK. I was wondering where you went .
> Apparently they(Histogen) started phase II trials in the beggining of December with 59 participants. 
> Most of us are eagerly awaiting phase I trial results from Replicel in late March. Until then there probably won't be anything to report .


 DECEMBER?!?!?!?!?!!!! :EEK!: 

Chrissake what happend to starting the trials in June 2011?  -

I bet you they were held up by that damn court case.  Aderans should finish up phase II this summer when they hit 350 - then its a looooong wait through Phase III lol.

Any news on Intercytex?  lol only joking  :Smile:

----------


## Sogeking

> DECEMBER?!?!?!?!?!!!!
> 
> Chrissake what happend to starting the trials in June 2011?  -
> 
> I bet you they were held up by that damn court case.  Aderans should finish up phase II this summer when they hit 350 - then its a looooong wait through Phase III lol.
> 
> Any news on Intercytex?  lol only joking


 Actually I read somewhere, and it is really hazy, somewhat questionable that some of the first participants for phase II trials were actually using Minox or Fin, so they had to scrap it all, and start all over... They are wininng the lawsuit so that shouldn't give them any more problems. 

As for Aderans yeah they are finishing their phasse II trials. If they enter phase III trials this year than we have something to be happy about. Also it seems the results are at first weak but compoundable  :Smile: .

I am still rooting for Replicel(I've been rooting for Trichoscience from the start). As for Follica I think they are mostly in research side of it all...

----------


## HairTalk

> Hi UK. I was wondering where you went .
> Apparently they(Histogen) started phase II trials in the beggining of December with 59 participants. 
> Most of us are eagerly awaiting phase I trial results from Replicel in late March. Until then there probably won't be anything to report .


 That sounds like misinformation: Histogen is listed as currently recruiting subjects (http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1) (to-day is 1/7/2012) for this study. Unless one counts the period in which an investigational team searches for subjects (which, I believe, most people in this forum really would not), you cannot say the phase I/II trial started in December, 2011; the trial has yet to begin.

Now, I don't know whether the company indeed did begin work in June, 2011, and is now simply seeking to enroll additional persons, or they actually have "not yet done anything."

----------


## Sogeking

> That sounds like misinformation: Histogen is listed as currently recruiting subjects (http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1) (to-day is 1/7/2012) for this study. Unless one counts the period in which an investigational team searches for subjects (which, I believe, most people in this forum really would not), you cannot say the phase I/II trial started in December, 2011; the trial has yet to begin.
> 
> Now, I don't know whether the company indeed did begin work in June, 2011, and is now simply seeking to enroll additional persons, or they actually have "not yet done anything."


 Hmm that is possible. Actually it was said in this thread that they've started phase II trials. So I'm sorry if it was wrong. I just did not check that.
Thank you for the correction.

----------


## 2020

stupid question:

from what I understand, this new treatment will ENCOURAGE HAIR GROWTH, right?
I'm sure it will work but the problem is that those new hairs are still going to be susceptible to DHT... wouldn't those new hairs continue "shrinking" from DHT?



ALSO: the guy in the interview said something like this:

... there are better ways to make money, but we love what we're doing so we'll keep doing it...


huh??? wouldn't this make A TON of money considering how many balding men there are WORLDWIDE???
unless most men don't care about losing hair...

----------


## Kampung101

> stupid question:
> 
> from what I understand, this new treatment will ENCOURAGE HAIR GROWTH, right?
> I'm sure it will work but the problem is that those new hairs are still going to be susceptible to DHT... wouldn't those new hairs continue "shrinking" from DHT?


 Yes, the wnt proteins and growth factors from your own body that the treatment uses is supposed to encourage hair growth (and the phase 1 results show it does). As for susceptibility to dht, thats what they are going to have to find out through the entire trial process. After 2 years, the participants from phase 1 still had all the hair they grew back intact. Whether that means the hairs are now permanently resistant to dht or will last for the amount of years your hair was intact before the balding process began is still a question mark.

----------


## Pate

> As for Aderans yeah they are finishing their phasse II trials. If they enter phase III trials this year than we have something to be happy about. Also it seems the results are at first weak but compoundable .


 I think the results were weak at first because they were still perfecting the formula. In the presentation video by Washenik that you can find online he shows a graph that shows results weren't great at first but with each new trial they got a bit better.

On top of that they seem to be doing the first tests on whether it's compoundable, with anecdotal reports suggesting it is. All in all they may have a theoretically less perfect solution than Replicel, but until Replicel show us some results Aderans seem to be the leaders in the field. Looks like they will get it to market first too given Histogen's delays.




> As for Follica I think they are mostly in research side of it all...


 Follica seem to be the Dark Horse in all this, they have an official policy of not commenting on R&D. Which is really annoying for us, but I guess it does mean there's a faint prospect of them suddenly announcing they've cracked it.  :Smile:

----------


## sausage

It is tough living on hope, time, the unknown.......

Is this really likely to produce thick full heads of hair? Possibly and probably not.

We won't know it until we actually see the final trials.

For me personally, In my late 20's I do not really have much time or the patience to wait.

Going bald is tough to deal with, my life's been ruined by it. Trying to make a decision on whether to wait for a treatment, to get a hair transplant or do nothing at all is extremely hard for many reasons and could ultimately destroy me. I need action now.

Compared to other young balding men I think I am dealing with hairloss very badly. I cannot cope, its constantly on my mind non-stop, 24/7. It is mental torture. I think I will have to get a HT. If it doesn't work then I will have to go to beachy head.

----------


## young

From what I understand, you basically restart your process. So if you started to go bald at age 20, the treatment will have to be done again within that timeframe. 

And that is something most could live with.

----------


## young

> It is tough living on hope, time, the unknown.......
> 
> Is this really likely to produce thick full heads of hair? Possibly and probably not.
> 
> We won't know it until we actually see the final trials.
> 
> For me personally, In my late 20's I do not really have much time or the patience to wait.
> 
> Going bald is tough to deal with, my life's been ruined by it. Trying to make a decision on whether to wait for a treatment, to get a hair transplant or do nothing at all is extremely hard for many reasons and could ultimately destroy me. I need action now.
> ...


 Don't be ashamed. Almost everyone deals with it pretty badly! It's not fun at all, and a lot of women don't actually understand the feeling we have of losing our very identity and "machoness". We feel a major set back, and complete loss of youth and vigour. 

I too lie awake and reminisce of the days when I had long flowing locks. I am not bald, but it has thinned out a lot. I have made improvements with an HT and some other standard treatments. It's helping. 

You should get it too. It makes you feel better. Don't think of the cost.

----------


## Maradona

> It is tough living on hope, time, the unknown.......
> 
> Is this really likely to produce thick full heads of hair? Possibly and probably not.
> 
> We won't know it until we actually see the final trials.
> 
> For me personally, In my late 20's I do not really have much time or the patience to wait.
> 
> Going bald is tough to deal with, my life's been ruined by it. Trying to make a decision on whether to wait for a treatment, to get a hair transplant or do nothing at all is extremely hard for many reasons and could ultimately destroy me. I need action now.
> ...


 hey man i know how you feel but there is surely things you still have right now that once you lose them you will not even care of being bald. I'm embracing it little by little man....all we can do is keep hope alive. Histogen might bring a solution the problem is time...unfortunately.

Why don't you try embracing the baldness for a couple of months or so, shave it and move on and see if you can deal with it. i will do that after my last attempt with a topical.

----------


## clandestine

You're not your hair, my fellow hair loss sufferers. You're not your hair.

That said, being 19 and first year uni, I'm dealing with this rather terribly. This is a good place to vent, though. It helps knowing there are others on here for support, going through the same motions.

----------


## Kiwi

> You're not your hair, my fellow hair loss sufferers. You're not your hair.
> 
> That said, being 19 and first year uni, I'm dealing with this rather terribly. This is a good place to vent, though. It helps knowing there are others on here for support, going through the same motions.


 I agree with you guys. 

At least you guys dont have a strip scar. My next HT will be FUE into the scar... Sucks to be me more then it sucks to be you :-/

----------


## KeepHoping

Just to give you guys some info, I emailed them and they finally got back to me, I just asked if the trail had started and she told me for the phase I/II trail all 55 subjects have been enrolled and injected with HSC and they look forward to sharing data in the upcoming months.  A little victory for all of us.

----------


## sanook

> It is tough living on hope, time, the unknown.......
> 
> Is this really likely to produce thick full heads of hair? Possibly and probably not.
> 
> We won't know it until we actually see the final trials.
> 
> For me personally, In my late 20's I do not really have much time or the patience to wait.
> 
> Going bald is tough to deal with, my life's been ruined by it. Trying to make a decision on whether to wait for a treatment, to get a hair transplant or do nothing at all is extremely hard for many reasons and could ultimately destroy me. I need action now.
> ...


 I know how you feel, i'm my late 20s and its had a bad impact on my confidence over the last decade. I even got to the stage of booking FUT with a very reputable surgeon, then chickened out at the last minute - so glad i did. I'm now booked in with Dr Gho for HST. 

I would try out HST or wait it out a few years and see whats available then. It's not worth badly scarring your head IMO, particularly for those of us who like to keep our hair short.

----------


## clandestine

Wouldn't mind a subforum on this website where we could talk about _coping_ with hair loss in our lives..

Anyone agree?

----------


## cleverusername

> You're not your hair, my fellow hair loss sufferers. You're not your hair.
> 
> That said, being 19 and first year uni, I'm dealing with this rather terribly. This is a good place to vent, though. It helps knowing there are others on here for support, going through the same motions.


 I'm starting my first year of uni next year and I'm also dealing with this terribly, like I'm addicted to coming on this forum everyday and thinking about my hair. It's gonna suck being the balding guy. Let's just hope one of these treatments comes to market soon so we can enjoy our lives after university.

----------


## clandestine

> I'm starting my first year of uni next year and I'm also dealing with this terribly, like I'm addicted to coming on this forum everyday and thinking about my hair. It's gonna suck being the balding guy. Let's just hope one of these treatments comes to market soon so we can enjoy our lives after university.


 Nailed it man, this is what I do precisely. I am indeed addicting to checking these forums every day. Sometimes multiple times a day. Blah.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> Just to give you guys some info, I emailed them and they finally got back to me, I just asked if the trail had started and she told me for the phase I/II trail all 55 subjects have been enrolled and injected with HSC and they look forward to sharing data in the upcoming months.  A little victory for all of us.


 This is really good news.  I heard somewhere that perhaps in some countries in the Far East, HSC Complex could be available after Phase I/II due to less stringent regulatory standards.  But this is indeed a victory.  Even if a person tries HSC Complex and it somehow doesn't work, then they won't have permanent head scarring like with a hair transplant.  No long term damage would be done; same can't be said with hair transplants today.

----------


## cleverusername

> Nailed it man, this is what I do precisely. I am indeed addicting to checking these forums every day. Sometimes multiple times a day. Blah.


 Haha at least we aren't the only ones.. on another note: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=5419&page=21
 I don't know if it's the lighting or something or maybe I'm just seeing things but it looks like NeedHairAsap is having some success with Spectral F-7.. Hope it works, cause I'm scared shitless from the thoughts of messing with Propecia.

----------


## born

> Haha at least we aren't the only ones.. on another note: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=5419&page=21
>  I don't know if it's the lighting or something or maybe I'm just seeing things but it looks like NeedHairAsap is having some success with Spectral F-7.. Hope it works, cause I'm scared shitless from the thoughts of messing with Propecia.


 post finasteride syndrome is very rare.Same like getting hit by a car next time you leave home.I don't know about other side effects though.I only trust the swedish study and it showed that the side effects are indeed rare.They even forced merk to include a waring of permanet erectile dysfanction on the warning tab of the reports they received otherwise they would remove it from market.If it wasn't safe they would have taken it down.

----------


## Have Hope3

> Just to give you guys some info, I emailed them and they finally got back to me, I just asked if the trail had started and she told me for the phase I/II trail all 55 subjects have been enrolled and injected with HSC and they look forward to sharing data in the upcoming months.  A little victory for all of us.


 This is encouraging.  Now it sounds like we are waiting for results from RepliCel and Histogen. I didn't realize Histogen was this far along. I wish Dr. Z would pay us a surprise visit! Good Luck to Histogen and RepliCel. Please make us proud!

----------


## clandestine

> post finasteride syndrome is very rare.Same like getting hit by a car next time you leave home.I don't know about other side effects though.I only trust the swedish study and it showed that the side effects are indeed rare.They even forced merk to include a waring of permanet erectile dysfanction on the warning tab of the reports they received otherwise they would remove it from market.If it wasn't safe they would have taken it down.


 Not sure if conjecture? Via Wiki; "Side effects of finasteride include impotence (1.1&#37; to *18.5%*)"

----------


## Morbo

> This is encouraging.  Now it sounds like we are waiting for results from RepliCel and Histogen. I didn't realize Histogen was this far along. I wish Dr. Z would pay us a surprise visit! Good Luck to Histogen and RepliCel. Please make us proud!


 I tend to get a bit confused by the differences between Replicel and Histogen, so let me get this straight (correct me if I'm wrong):
Replicel is about haircloning and growing new hairs and is a system which is more or less similar to hair- or stemcell transplantations.

While Histogen awakens the sleeping existing stemcells and stimulates hair grow, resulting in the same hair as before with the same curves, the same hairline and the same angles right?

As I understand (again correct me if I'm wrong) Replicel however is much further ahead in their test phase and will hit the market earlier than Histogen (if it works).

Personally I just started balding a year ago and the part that bugs me the most so far, more than vanity, is the loss of my identity and something that has been with me for 27 years.

So hypothetically speaking following the best case/dream/wishfull thinking scenario where both Replicell and Histogen get optimal results and both achieve 100 % (not going to happen though) hair growth, from my POV Histogen is the best solution right?

Thanks in advance.

----------


## Sogeking

> I tend to get a bit confused by the differences between Replicel and Histogen, so let me get this straight (correct me if I'm wrong):
> Replicel is about haircloning and growing new hairs and is a system which is more or less similar to hair- or stemcell transplantations.
> 
> While Histogen awakens the sleeping existing stemcells and stimulates hair grow, resulting in the same hair as before with the same curves, the same hairline and the same angles right?
> 
> As I understand (again correct me if I'm wrong) Replicel however is much further ahead in their test phase and will hit the market earlier than Histogen (if it works).
> 
> Personally I just started balding a year ago and the part that bugs me the most so far, more than vanity, is the loss of my identity and something that has been with me for 27 years.
> 
> ...


 Actually Histogen is further along. They are doing their Phase I/II trials. 

In an ideal fantasy world if both Histogen and Replicel had the same efficacy which grows acceptable amount of hair I would opt for REplicel.

Basically Replicel is taking your own cells, so it should be a safe method. Histogen however has some proteins if I remember correctly and other growth factors (it has really been awhile I was reading about it in this thread last winter  :Big Grin: ) so there is a chance for health problems (that is why they are testing it). Now for other factors: hair size, color, strength and so on. Can't really tell. No one could untikl it goes to the market...
This is ofcourse all hypothetical.

----------


## ffar

I must admint I am not a big optymist about Histogen. Replicel looks for me the best one, then Aderans on the end Histogen if it even come out. Let just hope that something will come out.

----------


## Morbo

Cheers for the replies guys.  :Smile:

----------


## krewel

> I must admint I am not a big optymist about Histogen. Replicel looks for me the best one, then Aderans on the end Histogen if it even come out. Let just hope that something will come out.


 You have that impression, because Replicel puts more effort into marketing. But objectively, no one's worse than the other one. At least not yet. What excites me about Replicel is the fact that  Prof.Hoffmann works for them.

----------


## UK_

....


> You have that impression, because Replicel puts more effort into marketing. But objectively, no one's worse than the other one. At least not yet. What excites me about Replicel is the fact that  Prof.Hoffmann works for them.


 ....

Yup.

----------


## eqvist

> I must admint I am not a big optymist about Histogen. Replicel looks for me the best one, then Aderans on the end Histogen if it even come out. Let just hope that something will come out.


 
Why aren´t you so optimistic abut Histogen?

----------


## KeepHoping

I can't understand why people are not excited about Histogen, it seems like it has the most potential of any of the potential breakthroughs.  They only have data from a pilot test of ONE INJECTION at a LOW DOSE and it looks the participates grew hair and it lasted...  Pretty impressive for a pilot trial that was testing for safety if you ask me.

----------


## KeepHoping

Also, can companies release a product after phase 2?  I've heard of that happening but what is the protocol on that?

----------


## gmonasco

> Also, can companies release a product after phase 2?  I've heard of that happening but what is the protocol on that?


 It depends on which regulatory agency you're talking about. In the case of the FDA, it is possible for them to approve a drug for marketing while Phase III trials are still underway, but I don't know that they would give much priority to a treatment that addresses a cosmetic issue rather than a life-threatening medical condition.

----------


## born

Does that http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...lopecia&rank=4 mean histogen is in phase 2?

----------


## UK Boy

> Does that http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...lopecia&rank=4 mean histogen is in phase 2?


 Cool, thanks for bringing this up, the trial no longer says 'recruiting' like it did in Dec so it appears they have officially started phase I/II finally! Says that they plan to have primary results by June and the trial will be finished by the end of the year. Nice to see a relatively short phase I/II trial, I know they may then do another or something before phase III but it's still encouraging. Really hope we hear good stuff over the next 6 months from Histogen & Replicel. Hope Aderans continues to progress too but I don't think we'll hear much til they finish phase II next year although I'm still keen to hear Spencer's upcoming interview with Ken.

----------


## KeepHoping

A lady from Histogen sent me an email a few weeks ago saying they had started and all the participants had been injected and they look forward to sharing news soon, so I think it shouldn't be too long before a 12 week update, if they decide to have a 12 week update like they did in the safety pre-trial.

----------


## UK_

> A lady from Histogen sent me an email a few weeks ago saying they had started and all the participants had been injected and they look forward to sharing news soon, so I think it shouldn't be too long before a 12 week update, if they decide to have a 12 week update like they did in the safety pre-trial.


 Does it give a specific date as to when they started?  Through this email can you yoruself confirm whether it was really a July start?

Could you possibly PM or post the entire email up?

Thanks.

----------


## KeepHoping

I asked if they had started the trail and this was the response:

"In response to your further questions, all 55 subjects have been enrolled and injected in the Phase I/II clinical trial of HSC, and that trial is currently in progress.

Best,
Eileen"

And in an earlier email she said:

"Thank you for your interest and message. Please excuse the delay in my response, we are working through a large number of inquiries. In response to your question, the mechanism of action of HSC indicates that the complex both stimulates existing follicles to produce new hairs as well as triggers stem cells in the scalp to become new hair follicles. Details from the pilot trial of HSC can be found on our website, and we look forward to sharing data from the Phase I/II trial in the coming months."

----------


## sausage

> I asked if they had started the trail and this was the response:
> 
> "In response to your further questions, all 55 subjects have been enrolled and injected in the Phase I/II clinical trial of HSC, and that trial is currently in progress.
> 
> Best,
> Eileen"
> 
> And in an earlier email she said:
> 
> "Thank you for your interest and message. Please excuse the delay in my response, we are working through a large number of inquiries. In response to your question, the mechanism of action of HSC indicates that the complex both stimulates existing follicles to produce new hairs as well as triggers stem cells in the scalp to become new hair follicles. Details from the pilot trial of HSC can be found on our website, and we look forward to sharing data from the Phase I/II trial in the coming months."


 
How long do they wait to see growth? I bet they must wait a year and study every guinea pigs heads after that time even if say 80% of them grow hair in the first month they probably wait to see if it lasts and also wait to see if growth eventually happens in the other 20%.

So I guess the trials take a year at a time?

----------


## Pate

> How long do they wait to see growth? I bet they must wait a year and study every guinea pigs heads after that time even if say 80% of them grow hair in the first month they probably wait to see if it lasts and also wait to see if growth eventually happens in the other 20%.
> 
> So I guess the trials take a year at a time?


 Last time they released initial results at 3 months, then 5 months, then 12 months.

The growth was fair at 3 months, then slipped a bit at 5 months, and it was looking like HSC wasn't long term.

But then at 12 months the results were even better than at 3 months. So it looks like the 5 months was just the new growth cycling before coming back stronger.

If you really want to know all about the last trial, click on the link to their scientific paper published in the dermatology journal and buy a copy of it. Or alternatively find somebody with online journal access (a university student or researcher) and get them to get a copy of it for free.

----------


## UK_

> But then at 12 months the results were even better than at 3 months. So it looks like the 5 months was just the new growth cycling before coming back stronger.
> 
> If you really want to know all about the last trial, click on the link to their scientific paper published in the dermatology journal and buy a copy of it. Or alternatively find somebody with online journal access (a university student or researcher) and get them to get a copy of it for free.


 Yeah that 12 month peak was really promising, it showed that the HSC had a lasting impact on the actual growth cycle, im glad to hear of them communicating with the public, its nice of them and we should all appreciate that.  It is also great to hear that they've been cracking on with Phase I/II.

Thanks for posting up the email KeepHoping.

----------


## sausage

Does anyone know if those people still have the new hair that grew during those tests?

Do they still have that hair today?

----------


## KeepHoping

No problem guys, keep your fingers crossed a lot of good things are coming.

----------


## 2020

> No problem guys, keep your fingers crossed a lot of good things are coming.


 is that sarcasm?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

this thread is a bunch of useless guessing, people fighting, and people saying, "come on guys were all in this together blah blah blah"

----------


## UK Boy

> this thread is a bunch of useless guessing, people fighting, and people saying, "come on guys were all in this together blah blah blah"


 There was no guessing about what I stated in my post. If you go on the clinical trials website it's there in black and white and backed up by the email from Histogen - they have def started there phase I/II trial! 

I agree that it's annoying to come on here and read a whole string of posts that have no truth or evidence behind them and are just people speculating but your coment is posted at a time when what has been discusssed is actual FACT not speculation.

This is good news, it means the trial should be finished by Dec 2012 /Jan 2013 and hopefully (now that their legal issues are out of the way) Histogen will be able to move on promtly thereafter. I know to some this isn't a huge thing because it's still gonna be years before it's released but considering that some though Histogen died back in mid 2011 then it is a big deal  - they didn't die and they're moving forward with trials.

----------


## KeepHoping

It's not sarcasm at all, I honestly believe that there will be new options for hairloss soon, within 2012 or next year we may have bimatoprost for the scalp and things to help enhance growth and stop the progression until better treatments arrive in 2013/2014.  If you think about it, this is in fact a race for these companies, the first to come up with a solution will become billionaires pretty quickly, the incentive for them to get their products to the market is VERY high and they know that, all the negative chatter is a waste of time and helps nobody.  Histogen was on the verge of shutting down and got some big investments and is moving forward, that alone is reason to stay hopeful.

----------


## sausage

They need to up these doses quicker then, get on with it, I don't have time!!!

Even when they do realise these products work it will probably take at least a year to get them produced on a huge scale.

----------


## Kirby_

> It's not sarcasm at all, I honestly believe that there will be new options for hairloss soon, within 2012 or next year we may have bimatoprost for the scalp and things to help enhance growth and stop the progression until better treatments arrive in 2013/2014.  If you think about it, this is in fact a race for these companies, the first to come up with a solution will become billionaires pretty quickly, the incentive for them to get their products to the market is VERY high and they know that, all the negative chatter is a waste of time and helps nobody.  Histogen was on the verge of shutting down and got some big investments and is moving forward, that alone is reason to stay hopeful.


 This.  :Smile: 

Let's stay hopeful (even if _some_ treatments all by the wayside, at least one or more will emerge on the market) and above all solidaristic, we're all in the same balding boat after all.

----------


## sausage

If a cure comes out we should all meet up in trafalgar square and celebrate.

----------


## Kirby_

> If a cure comes out we should all meet up in trafalgar square and celebrate.


 With plenty of alcoholic drinks.  :Smile:

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> If a cure comes out we should all meet up in trafalgar square and celebrate.


 I'd up for that.  :Smile:

----------


## Pate

> Does anyone know if those people still have the new hair that grew during those tests?
> 
> Do they still have that hair today?


 Nobody knows because the efficacy study only last 12 months. The safety study lasted 2 years but there was no formal evaluation of whether the hair stayed. All Histogen has said about it is "hair appeared to persist" at 2 years.

HSC probably won't be permanent because the hair follicles are still susceptible to DHT but if it can last 2 years that would be a great result (and an even better one for Histogen because you'd need to get it re-done every 2 years which means more $$$ for them!).

----------


## 2020

> HSC probably won't be permanent because the hair follicles are still susceptible to DHT but if it can last 2 years that would be a great result (and an even better one for Histogen because you'd need to get it re-done every 2 years which means more $$$ for them!).


 may be true, but if you're on propecia, you can stretch those 2 years into 5

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> It's not sarcasm at all, I honestly believe that there will be new options for hairloss soon, within 2012 or next year we may have bimatoprost for the scalp and things to help enhance growth and stop the progression until better treatments arrive in 2013/2014.  If you think about it, this is in fact a race for these companies, the first to come up with a solution will become billionaires pretty quickly, the incentive for them to get their products to the market is VERY high and they know that, all the negative chatter is a waste of time and helps nobody.  Histogen was on the verge of shutting down and got some big investments and is moving forward, that alone is reason to stay hopeful.


 I really salute your optimism bro.  We all should think this way and I sure as hell am.

----------


## Pate

> may be true, but if you're on propecia, you can stretch those 2 years into 5


 Hopefully yeah. Although by the time HSC comes out I am hopeful that CB-03-01 will be out too and we don't have to worry about taking Propecia.

----------


## sausage

> HSC probably won't be permanent because the hair follicles are still susceptible to DHT but if it can last 2 years that would be a great result (and an even better one for Histogen because you'd need to get it re-done every 2 years which means more $$$ for them!).


 Thats not good, I hope if it does work that they put in at a price the echo's that fact it will just start falling out again straight away.

----------


## CAlex

Even if it is dht susceptible why do people think it would immediately start dying off? If histogen or any other of these companies are able to regenerate or regrow hairs and return you to say a solid NW2 with good density. The hairs they create would last for years if the only issue with their stability or life cycle is dht and not a problem with the growth cycle inherit within the companies method of regeneration. 

dht takes a long time to damage a healthy hair to the point where it begins to thin out and then no longer regrow. I think hairs regenerated would last like 5 plus years easily.

I dont even care about this point at this stage. until histogen or replicel or follica get further along in clinical phases were just talking in circles.

----------


## Have Hope3

> Hopefully yeah. Although by the time HSC comes out I am hopeful that CB-03-01 will be out too and we don't have to worry about taking Propecia.


 Pate, 

Do we know how far along this CB-03-01 is in clinical trials??  I am having trouble finding information on this treatment. I did read that they had a successful phase 1 trial.

----------


## cleverusername

> Pate, 
> 
> Do we know how far along this CB-03-01 is in clinical trials??  I am having trouble finding information on this treatment. I did read that they had a successful phase 1 trial.


 If this CB-03-01 has potentially better benefits than propecia, someone should make a thread for it, so all the info and talk about it can go there. I'm trying to find out more about it but I am not finding much

----------


## doinmyheadin

Bump.. Any more news on Histogen? Updates

----------


## john2399

Yes, does anyone have any news on histogen. Is it true the phase 2 results will be avaible in june? and if everything goes well, can this be avaible in asia by 2013-14

----------


## jman91

> can this be avaible in asia by 2013-14


 even if it was i wouldn't recommend running off to some dodgy clinic in asia before it gets properly approved

----------


## john2399

> even if it was i wouldn't recommend running off to some dodgy clinic in asia before it gets properly approved


 Im desperate man lol

----------


## ccmethinning

> even if it was i wouldn't recommend running off to some dodgy clinic in asia before it gets properly approved


 hair > health. not joking either.

----------


## john2399

> hair > health. not joking either.


 Amen. Hair is health...my insides are slowing dying from hairloss.

----------


## jpm

Does anyone know whats going on with Histogen now? are they still testing, any results?

There still seems to be the same couple of photos from about 2 years ago and nothing new in that respect

----------


## UK_

They'll be presenting Phase 2 results at a conference on 9 - 12 May.

But everyone will still be talking about 3% rubbish Replicel.

----------


## jpm

> They'll be presenting Phase 2 results at a conference on 9 - 12 May.
> 
> But everyone will still be talking about 3% rubbish Replicel.


 Wow so we will know more about Histogen within a week, exciting!!

People need to put Replicel's results to the back of their mind and let them crack on with it. Granted 3% is not a very good result, but its early days yet and other than the results being underwhelming there was no safety concerns or problems....Anyway I don't want this to turn into another rant about replicel's results.

Will this be the end of Phase 2 for Histogen, or more still to test? Will they be announcing safety, effectiveness, viability at this conference?? 

Ta

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Wow so we will know more about Histogen within a week, exciting!!
> 
> People need to put Replicel's results to the back of their mind and let them crack on with it. Granted 3% is not a very good result, but its early days yet and other than the results being underwhelming there was no safety concerns or problems....Anyway I don't want this to turn into another rant about replicel's results.
> 
> Will this be the end of Phase 2 for Histogen, or more still to test? Will they be announcing safety, effectiveness, viability at this conference?? 
> 
> Ta


 PLEASE HISTOGEN, report some good news.

----------


## jpm

> PLEASE HISTOGEN, report some good news.


 They've already reported good news and we 'know' it works as their figures show they get 73% after one year... guess its just refining that procedure now

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> They've already reported good news and we 'know' it works as their figures show they get 73&#37; after one year... guess its just refining that procedure now


 So why aren't people celebrating, looks like histogen have won the race?

How does their tech, will it bring a NW7 back to NW1?

----------


## neversaynever

> They've already reported good news and we 'know' it works as their figures show they get 73% after one year... guess its just refining that procedure now


 Was that 73% for one patient or was it an average across all test patients?

----------


## jpm

> Was that 73&#37; for one patient or was it an average across all test patients?


 An average I believe. 

Check out this page, there are pics on it too. What I find good is that there are results within 12 weeks, which in hair loss terms is mega fast, considering it takes fin up to 18-24 months!!

http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm

Well its not permanent so its not a cure and I believe the hair could last around 5 years (my uninformed opinion btw) but with fin or any other new anti-androgen that may come out like CB then I think its a very big step in the right direction

----------


## jpm

> So why aren't people celebrating, looks like histogen have won the race?
> 
> How does their tech, will it bring a NW7 back to NW1?


 Doubtful to bring a nw7 to nw1...probably need a lot of injections to do that...if its even possible. I would assume it works better on diffuse thinners, but again just my opinion.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Doubtful to bring a nw7 to nw1...probably need a lot of injections to do that...if its even possible. I would assume it works better on diffuse thinners, but again just my opinion.


 What about if you are receeding?

----------


## kaandereli

> So why aren't people celebrating, looks like histogen have won the race?
> 
> How does their tech, will it bring a NW7 back to NW1?


 in the beginning of this thread , a doctor from histogen answered to questions.he said that it is possible to get a full hair even for nw7

----------


## jpm

> What about if you are receeding?


 Maybe... I don't think they've tested it at the temples. But I don't see why you couldnt get some regrowth, minox does sometimes regrow hair at the temples. They might get some regrowth but generally the crown responds best to treatments

----------


## john2399

I have all my faith in histogen. Those results were fantastic.Hopefully they just continue to get better which will most likely happen with more injections.

----------


## neversaynever

> I have all my faith in histogen. Those results were fantastic.Hopefully they just continue to get better which will most likely happen with more injections.


 I agree. If that 73% increase is an average across all their phase 1 patients (struggling to confirm that on the histogen website!), then its the best results by far from anyone.

There are many questions to be answered. of course this is not the cure, but I would be more than happy to fly to asia one a year or once every two years to wake up my vellus hairs.

I assume they're currently testing it on slick bald scalps?? I hope so. Im not there yet, YET  :Wink: 

This is an old thread, and i find their website difficult to navigate. Can anyone confirm when they started phase 2? I know they had problems starting up, so it got delayed.

Also, can someone point me to the 73% on their site, where it says its an average rather than just one patient?

----------


## neversaynever

I also find it interesting that ziering was happy to mention other researchers, including Dr Cots, who hit us recently with this PGd2 stuff. I wonder what ziering has to say about that?

----------


## sausage

Anyone know a year/possible date when this will be available if all goes well?

----------


## jpm

Histogen combines VEGF with other ingredients for their HSC. Although Nanogen brought out a VEGF serum and most people slammed it. 

There must be something in this VEGF is it works for Histogen or they are continuing to use this substance...

----------


## neversaynever

> Anyone know a year/possible date when this will be available if all goes well?


 Its impossible to say. its not even clear when phase 2 will be complete

----------


## Scoots

> Its impossible to say. its not even clear when phase 2 will be complete


 http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1

It says here that they're still in phase 1 for the HSC, and phase 2 for the injection device. Estimated completion for the end of this year but these dates always change.

----------


## UK_

> anyone know a year/possible date when this will be available if all goes well?


 its only another 5 years away!!!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## UK_

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1
> 
> It says here that they're still in phase 1 for the HSC, and phase 2 for the injection device. Estimated completion for the end of this year but these dates always change.


 Thats just the placebo they inject "Dulbecco's Modified Eagle Medium" - they are in "phase I/II" and will have results this month presented at the SID.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Thats just the placebo they inject "Dulbecco's Modified Eagle Medium" - they are in "phase I/II" and will have results this month presented at the SID.


 Is histogen in phase 1 or 2?

----------


## Kiwi

> Is histogen in phase 1 or 2?


 Are you serious. Its 2 and its written everywhere...

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Are you serious. Its 2 and its written everywhere...


 http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1 says they are in phase 1

----------


## neversaynever

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1 says they are in phase 1


 But they released their 'pilot' results last year, 1 year post injection. Is their pilot not the phase 1?

----------


## neversaynever

this suggests phase 1 is complete and they are in phase 2. As I understand it, the study with 24 patients was their phase 1.

http://www.histogen.com/applications...cal_status.htm

Ive always been confused about their status. I think I also read somewhere they are doing combined phase 1/2 trials in asia. 

It would be very nice if we can get an official update soon.

Maybe this?

Society for Investigative Dermatology (SID) Annual Meeting
May 9 - 12, 2012
Raleigh, NC
Dr. Gail Naughton to present "Stimulation of hair growth in humans by cell-secreted proteins"

----------


## jpm

I thought they were in phase 2 too! But evidently not which is a bit of a shame. So the results they published back in July 2009, where they phase 1??

----------


## john2399

They are in phase 2. It should be avaible in 2014 in asia and 2015-16 in United States.

----------


## jpm

> They are in phase 2. It should be avaible in 2014 in asia and 2015-16 in United States.


 What about the UK and EU?

----------


## neversaynever

> They are in phase 2. It should be avaible in 2014 in asia and 2015-16 in United States.


 When did they start phase 2? Im sure i read that they started in spring last year, after a few delays. If thats the case then they are nearly one year into it. I think I also read that they plan to release an update halfway into phase 2, which would be about now.

Fingers crossed

----------


## Pate

They are in Phase II and started it in January 2012. 3 month results should be available in the next few months.

This is where Intercytex fell down. It's crunch time for Histogen. If they can improve on their Phase I results which were 20% increase in terminal hairs at 3 months (compared to Replicel's 3% at 6 months!) then I imagine they will have a marketable product.

If they do an Intercytex then... well, Aderans is our last hope. And that is a particularly depressing thought.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WashedOut

> They are in Phase II and started it in January 2012. 3 month results should be available in the next few months.
> 
> This is where Intercytex fell down. It's crunch time for Histogen. If they can improve on their Phase I results which were 20% increase in terminal hairs at 3 months (compared to Replicel's 3% at 6 months!) then I imagine they will have a marketable product.
> 
> If they do an Intercytex then... well, Aderans is our last hope. And that is a particularly depressing thought.


 I'm glad people can actually appreciate Histogen's results now that they see how hard it is to gain that 20%. It's a pretty good showing and can be improved with time.

----------


## UK_

> If they do an Intercytex then... well, Aderans is our last hope. And that is a particularly depressing thought.


 Why do you say that?... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwA1ENqxI

they'll (Histogen) be releasing results at the SID in the coming week... does anyone plan on attending? lol  :Big Grin:

----------


## Kiwi

> Why do you say that?... 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwA1ENqxI
> 
> they'll (Histogen) be releasing results at the SID in the coming week... does anyone plan on attending? lol


 Hey UK_, you know that video is showing off wigs right :P

Anyway, just quickly, I'm curious as to how you know they (histogen) will be presenting next week. It's not on their site is it?

----------


## BoSox

ugh, I feel like all these treatments will be to "prevent" hairloss not reverse it. By 2015 I won't have anything to prevent. I hope Histogen can help those who are NW 5 +

----------


## tizzle

correct me if i missunderstood the presented information but this HSC is actually regrowing and not preventing.

Oh man my expectations are so high, it would kill me if this product fails during the trials  :Mad:  (im very bad at keeping my hopes down :Embarrassment: )

----------


## jpm

> ugh, I feel like all these treatments will be to "prevent" hairloss not reverse it. By 2015 I won't have anything to prevent. I hope Histogen can help those who are NW 5 +


 Histogen had 73% regrowth. Infact their treatment doesn't prevent hair loss. It just regrows hair. 

Treatments like RU and CB will prevent hair loss

----------


## kaandereli

http://stemcellbaldnesscures.com/hai...th-technology/

i got a sense of histogen by reading this article.it sounds a viable treatment and if comes to market it will make baldness just a trivial disease like flu.hope it comes out soon

----------


## UK_

> Anyway, just quickly, I'm curious as to how you know they (histogen) will be presenting next week. It's not on their site is it?


 Gail emailed me  :Big Grin:

----------


## BoSox

> Histogen had 73% regrowth. Infact their treatment doesn't prevent hair loss. It just regrows hair.


 Did they really achieve this? I never realized they were able to do this. To have grown this much at such an early stage is amazing. I was so worked up on Replicel, I heard about Histogen before any future treatments but lost interest. Wouldn't this be considered a cure in your opinion?

----------


## Davey Jones

> Did they really achieve this? I never realized they were able to do this. To have grown this much at such an early stage is amazing. I was so worked up on Replicel, I heard about Histogen before any future treatments but lost interest. Wouldn't this be considered a cure in your opinion?


 I'm guessing that by "doesn't prevent hairloss", he means that the newly grown hairs are not DHT resistent and will suffer the same fate as the old ones, as they ARE the old ones.

Makes me wonder.  If Replicel could prove that they could make follicles DHT resistant, despite not achieving impressive regrowth, then Histogen+Replicel would be a cure to hairloss, would it not?

That all would hinge on Replicel being able to show that they made follicles DHT resistant though.  I heard that they thought they could, but I heard a lot of stuff from them.

----------


## jpm

Bosox, they said they achieved 73% in a year on their site, so I assume they really did  :Big Grin: 

Yes that's what I meant, the new follicles aren't DHT resistant but I believe the embryonic complex used by histogen will ''reset'' the follicle to where they were when they were first made. I.e. in the womb or as babies. Therefore I would assume that if you started losing your hair at 23 then Histogen would give you 23 more years.

However!! I also think that as a baby you have no DHT in your system until you reach puberty, which is around 13. So those follicles won't be immune for 23 years because DHT will be attacking them. I would assume that with Histogen those new hairs wouldn't start to thin for 10 years.

This is all my own take on it. Nothing concrete.

----------


## john2399

> I'm guessing that by "doesn't prevent hairloss", he means that the newly grown hairs are not DHT resistent and will suffer the same fate as the old ones, as they ARE the old ones.
> 
> Makes me wonder.  If Replicel could prove that they could make follicles DHT resistant, despite not achieving impressive regrowth, then Histogen+Replicel would be a cure to hairloss, would it not?
> 
> That all would hinge on Replicel being able to show that they made follicles DHT resistant though.  I heard that they thought they could, but I heard a lot of stuff from them.


 I like your way of thinking...combo of replicel and histogen could be genius. I still don't know how people are overlooking histogen thou. If this can have 73 percent regrowth in only phase 1, than who knows with more time how they can improve. Histogen is going to be a great treatment for people who are thinning and lost some hair, maybe not a cure to prevent hairloss but sure get alot of hair back. Im not sure it can save someone as of nw 6 or 7..thats the question

----------


## neversaynever

Im quite sure that 73% is just one patient, and not an average. Unless anyone can prove otherwise?

----------


## Kiwi

> Gail emailed me


 Getting emailed by the boss to let you know that is pretty significant! They are hardly going to email you to tell you that they are presenting if they know it's going to be shit :P

----------


## tizzle

even if its only 50% in average i still think its absolutely freakin amazing. 

Many specialist say that you notice thinning when you lost 50% of the hair so for young people this means that they can get their HSC immediately and maybe keep all of the hair forever (in combination with Fin maybe)

and for people with progressed mph its still an amazing improvement

but i guess we have to wait and see how it works, if its even going to hit the market

----------


## CVAZBAR

Spencer said he spoke to Dr. Z and will be back on the show in a couple of weeks for a Histogen update. Problem is that Dr. Z is a busy man so things can change.

----------


## jpm

and the good thing with Histogen is that, unlike replicel, the process can be mass produced. It's just a complex that once the right formulation is worked out, it can be made in bulk. Leading to cheaper prices  :Smile:

----------


## bigentries

How convenient

Replicel presents bad results and suddenly Histogen is going release more information.

Really good timing considering that everyone know they got at least some success and the expectations are really low at the moment

----------


## BoSox

I just hope Fin can keep my thinning hair for at least a few more years for Histogen. Looking forward to an update from them, this is great news.

----------


## jpm

> I just hope Fin can keep my thinning hair for at least a few more years for Histogen. Looking forward to an update from them, this is great news.


 Fin should do that. No worries there!

----------


## kaandereli

is it true that histogen will present 3 months results in SID conference 2 days after?

----------


## jpm

> is it true that histogen will present 3 months results in SID conference 2 days after?


 When its comes to keeping deadlines in this industry, take it all with a pinch of salt.

But yes I believe they started Ph2 in Jan and so 3 months would have been March time. Couple of months to collate data so yeah they should be releasing 3 month results

----------


## john2399

These clinical trials take so dam long. I wish it was only 2 phases instead of 3 long ass trials that seem to take forever.

----------


## Latitude

I do get concerned when percentages are quoted, a 100% increase in an area with one terminal hair is just, well, one hair.  The percentage increase could really be an infinite number depending on the baseline.   Ultimately the results need to be cosmetically significant to the individual being treated to make any product a commercial success.

----------


## Kirby_

If (if!) this ever works and is commercially available, it'll be ideal for diffuse balders like myself! I wouldn't mind even having to have new injections every five to ten years, in theory. Surely in practice Histogen's treatment could be priced more affordable and mass-market than Relicel?

----------


## PvH

so we officially back on histogen? lol

----------


## tizzle

@latitude

i dont think the regrowth is based on the haircount you still have. The technology should kind of reactivate the "dead" follicels too so i guess its a % of the hair you once had before mpb (and its not 100%, that would be too good to be true  :Big Grin: )

----------


## jpm

> I do get concerned when percentages are quoted, a 100% increase in an area with one terminal hair is just, well, one hair.  The percentage increase could really be an infinite number depending on the baseline.   Ultimately the results need to be cosmetically significant to the individual being treated to make any product a commercial success.


 If you only have one terminal hair, then that's ok because Histogen 'will' thicken up your vellous and non-terminal hairs. 

My understanding is that, at 3 months 22% increase in terminal hair count. So if you have 100 vellous hairs and 1 terminal hair on your hair then you still have 101 hairs. Add 22% to this and you get 24 Terminal Hairs and 125 hairs in total. Also Histogen reports that it increases hair thickness by about 23% (at month 3). So you will have 125 hairs (24 terminal) that have increased in thickness by 23%!! - Not bad for someone at 3 months who started off with only one ''hair''. Results will surely improve at 6 and 12 months.

*If* this is actually what histogen can do, then it is a very very good treatment!!

----------


## Losing_It

see below


ABSTRACT FINAL ID: 519
TITLE: Stimulation of hair growth in humans by cell-secreted proteins
AUTHORS (FIRST NAME INITIAL LAST NAME): G. K. Naughton1, C. Ziering2, N. Sadick3, D. Perez-Meza4, M. Hubka1, D. Ehrlich1, J. Mansbridge1
INSTITUTIONS (ALL): 1. Histogen, San Diego, CA, United States. 
2. Ziering Medical, Los Angeles, CA, United States. 
3. Sadick Dermatology, New York, NY, United States. 
4. Permanent Hair Solutions, Maitland, FL, United States. 
ABSTRACT BODY: We have evaluated a bioengineered human cell-derived formulation, termed Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC), on the effects of hair growth activity in male pattern baldness and female diffuse hair loss. HSC is produced by cells grown on beads in hypoxic bioreactors and contains cytokines including KGF,VEGF,follistatin and noggin. Follistatin and noggin antagonize activin and BMPs which maintain the quiescent state of hair follicle stem cell proliferation. We hypothesized that injection of this medium may increase the supply of progenitor and transit amplifying keratinocytes to the hair shaft, leading to an increase in the thickness of the hairs and a reversal of the miniaturization process. Three clinical studies have been performed. The pilot study was a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial involving 26 men with androgenetic alopecia. At baseline one area of the scalp received (4) 0.1cc intradermal injections (injs) of HSC and the parallel site received identical injs of placebo. HSC showed an excellent safety profile and a statistically significant increase in hair shaft thickness (p<0.05) at 3 months and hair density at 3 months (p <0.03) and 1 year (p<0.03) as assessed by Trichoscan image analysis. Analysis of the distribution of hair density at 1 year showed that the effect was no longer localized to 2-3mm around the injection site, as was the case at 12 weeks. Increased terminal hairs were seen in the entire region within the 4 injection sites supporting the hypothesis that HSC stimulated resting and miniaturizing follicles to increase terminal hair growth. A Phase I/II 55 patient trial with an identical protocol but with 8 injs of HSC and control at baseline and a repeat dose at week 6 has completed enrollment. A 10 patient non-controlled study for men and women with hair loss is being conducted, with patients receiving 20 injs of HSC at baseline and week 6. The efficacy results seen with HSC represent a novel regenerative medicine approach in hair growth treatment. 

KEYWORDS: Hair, Clinical trials, Biologic therapy.
CURRENT 1ST PREFERRED CATEGORY: Human Clinical Research and Therapeutics
CONTACT (E-MAIL ONLY): ebrandt@histogeninc.com
SESSION LOCATION: Ballroom B/C
SESSION DAY & DATE: Thursday, May 10, 2012
SESSION START TIME: 10:00 AM

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> so we officially back on histogen? lol


 Why did people lose faith in histogen to begin with?

----------


## Kiwi

> How convenient
> 
> Replicel presents bad results and suddenly Histogen is going release more information.
> 
> Really good timing considering that everyone know they got at least some success and the expectations are really low at the moment


 Dream on. 

I've been reading TBT site for years. Histogen has a head start on RepliCel by at least 3 or 4 years.

If anything its more fool RepliCel for releasing their not so amazing data weeks before Histogen are about to present their Phase 2 three month data at a public event. Of course you can't blame RepliCel for trying and I sincerely hope both products come to market sooner rather then later!!

----------


## jpm

> so we officially back on histogen? lol


 I was never off the Histogen Bandwagon lol. I've long thought they were the best bet.

They were always ahead of Replicel and had results that were really good long before Replicel released their less than good results.

Histogen is looking like the first product to market that will be successful. I don't know of any problems they have had with their actual technology, that bloody lawsuit set them back time and money though!!! Grrrrrr. 

I believe Aderans has problems with angle of hair growth....

----------


## BoSox

If only famous people donated to Histogen, plenty of celebs going bald who want their hair. Cmon people, drop some mula on a good cause :P

Either way, with Histogen's results, funding won't be an issue.. I just hope they will come out with even better results. I want to ask Gail Naughton some questions, does she actually respond to emails? What is her email?

----------


## Latitude

> @latitude
> 
> i dont think the regrowth is based on the haircount you still have. The technology should kind of reactivate the "dead" follicels too so i guess its a % of the hair you once had before mpb (and its not 100%, that would be too good to be true )


 
Thanks Tizzle - Makes sense, if that is the case I do stand corrected.  

I would be more than happy to get back 50% of what I've lost to date  :Smile:

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I believe Aderans has problems with angle of hair growth....


 Why is this a problem when a hair transplant surgeon can correct the angle?

----------


## Tacola

Does anyone know which one of the days that Histogen will present the news? I saw that the meeting took place from the 9th until the 12th.

How I wish that there will be good news this time!!!!!!

----------


## gmonasco

> Why is this a problem when a hair transplant surgeon can correct the angle?


 It's hardly efficacious to have a treatment to regrow hair that requires those regrown hairs to be individually dug out of your scalp and reseated at a proper angle.

----------


## gmonasco

> Increased terminal hairs were seen in the entire region within the 4 injection sites supporting the hypothesis that HSC stimulated resting and miniaturizing follicles to increase terminal hair growth.


 Note carefully that this passage does not claim that HSC is producing any new hair growth.  It only talks about stimulating "resting and miniaturizing follicles."

----------


## BoSox

> "resting and miniaturizing follicles."


 This confuses me, I thought they discovered hair follicles are shrunken down, microscopic , but still there. Shouldn't treatments restore these follicles back?

----------


## tizzle

just to clarify: 

http://www.thebaldtruth.com/articles...wth-interview/

in this interview gail naughton said that the HSC is stimulating not only the existing hair follicles (the ones that are not completely "dead" from mph) but it also stimulates the stem cells that are responsible for creating hair follicles in our scalp in the first place. 

so the way i understand this, is that you can be completely bald and still regrow hair with the HSC. Its just more effective when you still have hair since remaining hair follicles will produce also more hair per follicular unit. And they call it "regenerative medicine" so i think i understood it correctly.

But if i am not plz feel free to correct me  :Big Grin:

----------


## john2399

> just to clarify: 
> 
> http://www.thebaldtruth.com/articles...wth-interview/
> 
> in this interview gail naughton said that the HSC is stimulating not only the existing hair follicles (the ones that are not completely "dead" from mph) but it also stimulates the stem cells that are responsible for creating hair follicles in our scalp in the first place. 
> 
> so the way i understand this, is that you can be completely bald and still regrow hair with the HSC. Its just more effective when you still have hair since remaining hair follicles will produce also more hair per follicular unit. And they call it "regenerative medicine" so i think i understood it correctly.
> 
> But if i am not plz feel free to correct me


 You sound correct to me. I do feel a nw 2 or 3 would benefit more from this treatment or specially someone who is thinning in which this can help catch it in time.

----------


## jpm

> You sound correct to me. I do feel a nw 2 or 3 would benefit more from this treatment or specially someone who is thinning in which this can help catch it in time.


 I'm a nw 1.5/2 thinning slowly, I'm on fin so I'm hoping I can keep it this way till Histogen comes out in a few years. I hope I'm a good candidate

----------


## 2020

73% growth was from this one subject ONLY:



the rest of the subjects didn't have such massive growth, altough Histogen said that after one year, EVERYONE'S hair count improved....

----------


## gmonasco

> in this interview gail naughton said that the HSC is stimulating not only the existing hair follicles (the ones that are not completely "dead" from mph) but it also stimulates the stem cells that are responsible for creating hair follicles in our scalp in the first place.


 Not exactly.  She said, it "*seems as though* we're creating new hair follicles from stem cells that are in the scalp."  It might also be the case that something else is happening, such as HSC is simply coaxing existing hairs out of the telogen (i.e., resting) phase.  The abstract quoted earlier in this thread suggests the latter.

----------


## 2020

> Not exactly.  She said, it "*seems as though* we're creating new hair follicles from stem cells that are in the scalp."  It might also be the case that something else is happening, *such as HSC is simply coaxing existing hairs out of the telogen* (i.e., resting) phase.  The abstract quoted earlier in this thread suggests the latter.


 ^ that's more likely..... 

Histogen is not in the business of actually CLONING hair, it just works with what you got  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## gmonasco

> This confuses me, I thought they discovered hair follicles are shrunken down, microscopic , but still there. Shouldn't treatments restore these follicles back?


 There's a difference between follicles that are miniaturized and those that have stopped producing hair altogether.  What works on the former may not necessarily work on the latter.

----------


## gmonasco

> 73% growth was from this one subject ONLY


 You also have to be careful about how that growth is measured.  If you have 100 hairs in a given area of your head and some treatment increases that hair count to 200, that's a 100% increase *based on the existing hair count*. But if that area of your head initially held 5,000 hairs *prior to the onset of MPB*, an increase of 100 hairs isn't going to make any cosmetic difference to your appearance.  You would have to hope that such a treatment was compoundable to be effective.

----------


## john2399

> ^ that's more likely..... 
> 
> Histogen is not in the business of actually CLONING hair, it just works with what you got


 Where you been 2020...you vanished after replicel results lol

----------


## 2020

> Where you been 2020...you vanished after replicel results lol


 lol, I've been busy studying for the exams  :Stick Out Tongue: 

don't really care about Replicel results at the moment, Histogen was my first choice anyways...

----------


## john2399

> lol, I've been busy studying for the exams 
> 
> don't really care about Replicel results at the moment, Histogen was my first choice anyways...


  man i really hope this histogen can just be a good effective treatment..hopefully soon

----------


## Kirby_

HSC isn't going to be perfect, but it's the future super-treatment that seems (IMO) the most likely to end up having mass-market affordability. If it tends up costing in the same region as laser eye treatments (Lasik and so on), or better, even cheaper than that, it's there.

----------


## Maradona

> lol, I've been busy studying for the exams 
> 
> don't really care about Replicel results at the moment, Histogen was my first choice anyways...


 Are you taking fin and taking exams? Man that must be tough.

I am waiting for final exams to end before I shoot myself in the mouth with fin.

----------


## 2020

> Are you taking fin and taking exams? Man that must be tough.
> 
> I am waiting for final exams to end before I shoot myself in the mouth with fin.


 lol what does fin have to do with taking exams?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## ccmethinning

> lol what does fin have to do with taking exams?


 People have reported diminished mental capability and depression as side effects of fin.

----------


## john2399

> People have reported diminished mental capability and depression as side effects of fin.


 That is so bull. No way in hell does fin cause diminished mental capability. Its amazing what people on this drug believe it can cause. Been on fin for 11 months and no side effects at all.

----------


## Kirby_

I is on fin I deffo aint been having nuffink wrongs with how me finkings works in me 'ead

----------


## Kiwi

> That is so bull. No way in hell does fin cause diminished mental capability. Its amazing what people on this drug believe it can cause. Been on fin for 11 months and no side effects at all.


 It caused my morning erections to pretty much vanish. But they are back with a vengeance now that I've stopped taking it.

My god I hope Histogen works!!!

----------


## eqvist

> People have reported diminished mental capability and depression as side effects of fin.


 It´s funny how people can even think that depression is a side effect of fin. Don´t you think that people that goes on fin have depression from hair loss? I can buy that those who have some dick problems of fin can get depression but otherwise hell no!

----------


## eqvist

If histogen can make my thinning hair follicles to produce full-thickness and produce with the help of fine normal hair for about 10 years at a reasonable price, I will leave the hair depression a decade!!! I will also make a histogen tattoo! Please god make this work!

----------


## tizzle

> You also have to be careful about how that growth is measured.  If you have 100 hairs in a given area of your head and some treatment increases that hair count to 200, that's a 100% increase *based on the existing hair count*. But if that area of your head initially held 5,000 hairs *prior to the onset of MPB*, an increase of 100 hairs isn't going to make any cosmetic difference to your appearance.  You would have to hope that such a treatment was compoundable to be effective.


 But we also have to keep in mind that hair thicknes has also increased by 20% or something like that which makes a difference too. 

And it was the first trial, im looking forward to the trial that seems to be running right now, in which they will inject more of the HSC i think.

But you are probably right in terms of keeping the expectations down as long as we dont have absolutely clear data

----------


## tizzle

by the way: 

It looks like "Society for Investigative Dermatology (SID) Annual Meeting" is starting today in which Dr. Naughton is to present "Stimulation of hair growth in humans by cell-secreted proteins"

maybe there will be some new information in a few days/weeks

----------


## Pate

> see below
> 
> 
> ABSTRACT FINAL ID: 519
> TITLE: Stimulation of hair growth in humans by cell-secreted proteins
> AUTHORS (FIRST NAME INITIAL LAST NAME): G. K. Naughton1, C. Ziering2, N. Sadick3, D. Perez-Meza4, M. Hubka1, D. Ehrlich1, J. Mansbridge1
> INSTITUTIONS (ALL): 1. Histogen, San Diego, CA, United States. 
> 2. Ziering Medical, Los Angeles, CA, United States. 
> 3. Sadick Dermatology, New York, NY, United States. 
> ...


 Couple of bits of new, interesting info in there.

1. "Analysis of the distribution of hair density at 1 year showed that the effect was no longer localized to 2-3mm around the injection site, as was the case at 12 weeks."

To my knowledge this has never been mentioned before. Both good and potentially a little bit bad news. Good because obviously this has proved it's not just a localised effect requiring injections 4mm apart and that it appears to spread out slowly over time. But slightly worrying because the 2mm effect was a good way to ensure we didn't end up growing hair halfway down on foreheads!

But I don't think it's too bad because it's really starting to look like HSC just reactivates the dormant follicles. So its effect on areas that never had terminal follicles should be minimal. At worst it might require the odd laser hair removal of stray hairs growing outside the hairline. Hopefully!

2. "A 10 patient non-controlled study for men and women with hair loss is being conducted, with patients receiving 20 injs of HSC at baseline and week 6."

This is new. They haven't mentioned this before. There is no placebo so it's not blinded but it sounds like these injections have actually already happened... which brings me to #3.

3. "A Phase I/II 55 patient trial with an identical protocol but with 8 injs of HSC and control at baseline and a repeat dose at week 6 has completed enrollment."

Completed enrollment?! I am hoping that doesn't mean they haven't done the injections yet. Last we heard (December I think) they were supposed to have done the first set of injections in January 2012. However it does say "Three clinical studies have been performed" so hopefully that means it's just poor wording in the abstract. We'll find out soon.


Anyway, to those asking if we're all back on the Histogen bandwagon now... some of us never left! I've been saying HSC and CB-03-01 are our best chance til the cows come home. Problem is, there is so much crap on these forums that it's hard to keep track of.

For the record the HSC regrowth at 12 months was as high as 120% increase in terminal hair in one patient, from a pretty strong base count. It doesn't actually say how many new terminal hairs that translates to but I might be able to work it out with some math from the percentages they gave. I'll have a go.

They did say that average regrowth at 12 months was 25 hairs per injection. I think in most cases that would be about a 15% increase in total hair count.

----------


## UK_

Since when did this become a thread about Finasteride?

------

Nice post Pate - im looking forward to hearing from Histogen again, it's been a while.

----------


## Davey Jones

> But I don't think it's too bad because it's really starting to look like HSC just reactivates the dormant follicles. So its effect on areas that never had terminal follicles should be minimal. At worst it might require the odd laser hair removal of stray hairs growing outside the hairline. Hopefully!


 I eagerly await the day when my problem is too much hair.

----------


## BoSox

I've been on Fin since 2007. The only side effect I've had was a bad marriage, other than that all is well :P 

120%? Histogen? I thought it was 73% regrowth, unless I'm missing something.

----------


## 2020

> They did say that average regrowth at 12 months was 25 hairs per injection. I think in most cases that would be about a 15&#37; increase in total hair count.


 15% after 12 months? Where are you getting this? Even after 3 months, the hair count jumped 20%+ on average.
That 73% was the maximum result they were able to achieve at 12 months with a small injection.

Things are looking good with Histogen. As long as this stuff doesn't grow tumors at high doses, we're good  :Cool:

----------


## tizzle

we should stop throwing all these numbers. its confusing  :Big Grin: 
i think we should wait until this second study is over

----------


## neversaynever

I think the numbers and info are a bit too vague at this point. Sure, max 73&#37; increase, but in one patient, in an area that had plenty of hairs already.

The bigger issue are areas of scalps with invisible hairs. 

Im also curious of what they think about Dr Cots prostaglandin D synthase finding.

"The inhibition of hair growth is triggered when the protein binds to a receptor on the cells of hair follicles, said Prof Cotsarelis"

Personally, I believe that is the most specific info we've had for a long time. I wonder how HSC deals with that....

Besides, havent they only elapsed 3 months of 2 years? Phase 2 is two years right? And then phase 3 is 2 years....no?

Correct me if im wrong, which i hope is the case  :Wink:

----------


## jpm

If anyone knows what Histogen says at this conference that is currently going on, can they please post  :Smile: 

Thanks

----------


## Pate

> 15% after 12 months? Where are you getting this? Even after 3 months, the hair count jumped 20%+ on average.
> That 73% was the maximum result they were able to achieve at 12 months with a small injection.
> 
> Things are looking good with Histogen. As long as this stuff doesn't grow tumors at high doses, we're good


 No, 20% was the increase in terminal hair count, which has always been higher than the increase in total hair. The chart on the website, which appears to show the average of the trials, has a 15% increase in total hair count at 12 months.

And no, 123% was the maximum increase in terminal hair achieved at 12 months. The 73% figure was their second best. 

25 hairs per sq

----------


## Kiwi

> I think the numbers and info are a bit too vague at this point. Sure, max 73% increase, but in one patient, in an area that had plenty of hairs already.
> 
> The bigger issue are areas of scalps with invisible hairs. 
> 
> Im also curious of what they think about Dr Cots prostaglandin D synthase finding.
> 
> "The inhibition of hair growth is triggered when the protein binds to a receptor on the cells of hair follicles, said Prof Cotsarelis"
> 
> Personally, I believe that is the most specific info we've had for a long time. I wonder how HSC deals with that....
> ...


 I'd rather vague from Histogen over shite from RepliCel :P

----------


## Kiwi

> If anyone knows what Histogen says at this conference that is currently going on, can they please post 
> 
> Thanks


 Whats the link to the conference site?

----------


## Pate

Okay, so. In order to stop these figures flying back and forth all over BTT and the other forums... I have bought the Histogen paper published in the JDD and linked to on their website. Cost 15 USD for a one-time purchase. Unfortunately I am not a student any more I would have free access to journals like these through my university but oh well, 15 USD is a small price to pay.

So here are the official figures from Histogen, published in the peer-reviewed journal.

At 3 months:

Shaft thickness +6%
Thickness density +13%
Terminal hair count +21%
No mention of total hair count, presumably it was not statistically significant

At 5 months:

No statistically significant increase over 3 months (obviously some individuals had better results at 5 months but the overall change was not statistically significant).

At 12 months:
Total hair count +16%
Thickness density +18%
Terminal hair count +30%

So there you have it, straight from the source. A single injection of HSC resulted in an average 30% increase in terminal hair count at 12 months. There is some other interesting stuff in the paper too but I haven't read it all yet.

----------


## Kiwi

> Okay, so. In order to stop these figures flying back and forth all over BTT and the other forums... I have bought the Histogen paper published in the JDD and linked to on their website. Cost 15 USD for a one-time purchase. Unfortunately I am not a student any more I would have free access to journals like these through my university but oh well, 15 USD is a small price to pay.
> 
> So here are the official figures from Histogen, published in the peer-reviewed journal.
> 
> At 3 months:
> 
> Shaft thickness +6%
> Thickness density +13%
> Terminal hair count +21%
> ...


 Nice find. Can't wait for their next update!!

----------


## kaandereli

> Okay, so. In order to stop these figures flying back and forth all over BTT and the other forums... I have bought the Histogen paper published in the JDD and linked to on their website. Cost 15 USD for a one-time purchase. Unfortunately I am not a student any more I would have free access to journals like these through my university but oh well, 15 USD is a small price to pay.
> 
> So here are the official figures from Histogen, published in the peer-reviewed journal.
> 
> At 3 months:
> 
> Shaft thickness +6%
> Thickness density +13%
> Terminal hair count +21%
> ...


 it takes 1 year for significant results to grow hair , which is the reason why replicel's 6 months results perceived as failure , probably they will also get good results after 6 months
but histogen is far ahead , 30% is excellent , hope they offer it soon

----------


## tizzle

thx a lot Pate! sounds very promising considering in the second trial they are going to inject  more HSC. I cant wait to see the results

----------


## 2020

> Okay, so. In order to stop these figures flying back and forth all over BTT and the other forums... I have bought the Histogen paper published in the JDD and linked to on their website. Cost 15 USD for a one-time purchase. Unfortunately I am not a student any more I would have free access to journals like these through my university but oh well, 15 USD is a small price to pay.


 you bought this?
http://www.*************/hair-loss/im...879_file54.pdf

hairsite already had it apparently....


those numbers you're giving us are only from TWO subjects. If you want the averages:




> The improvements caused by HSC treatment were significantly greater than those observed in placebo-treated sites for 
> *hair shaft thickness (6.3%±2.5% vs. -0.63%±2.1%; F=0.046), 
> thickness density (12.8%±4.5% vs. -0.2% ± 2.9%; P=0.028), 
> and terminal hair density (20.6±4.9% vs. 4.4±4.9%; P=0.029).*
> 
> Although a similar trend was seen at 22 weeks, significance was lost as there was no further growth improvement in the subjects. However, *at one year,* we observed significant improvements in 
> *hair count (16.0±6.6% vs. 3.65±3.7%) 
> and substantial increases in thickness density (17.6±8.39% vs. 0.67±4.3%), 
> and terminal hair density (29.5±14.8 vs. 2.4±6.8%)*


 
^ this is all from their official paper:
http://jddonline.com/articles/dermatology/1650


EDIT: pate was right:



> Subject 027 showed a *123.4% increase in total hair count* at one year following a *single injection* of HSC


  :EEK!:   :EEK!:   :EEK!:

----------


## tizzle

Subject 027 is one lucky bastard  :Smile:

----------


## BoSox

123% ???? That's gotta be a fluke. This would be incredible if they can get results like this consistently.

----------


## gmonasco

> Subject 027 showed a 123.4% increase in total hair count at one year following a single injection of HSC


 Eh?  Where does this figure come from?

----------


## 2020

> Eh?  Where does this figure come from?


 from this:
http://www.*************/hair-loss/im...879_file54.pdf

page 3

----------


## gmonasco

> from this: page 3


 But if you look at the figure referenced in that note, it shows photos displaying a hair count going from a baseline of 214.5 hairs to 324.5 hairs after one year, which is only a 51.2% increase.

----------


## jpm

With growth rates like this, I and many other are probably thinking, sod the healthy and safety trials. Pump industrial quantities of that sweet sweet HSC into my scalp please  :Big Grin: 


.......only kidding, health and safety first guys!!

----------


## jpm

Just reading through the Histogen article and it states, 'HSC's effect on hair growth was concentrated within 1-2mm of the site of injection'.

I read somewhere that it spread out once injected...otherwise you would need hundreds of injections. ouch!

----------


## LarryDavid

Why is the haircount increasing in the placebo group?
Even when you look at the average of all subjects it is increasing after one year.

----------


## tizzle

> I read somewhere that it spread out once injected...otherwise you would need hundreds of injections. ouch!


 i would take a thousand needles as long as i get my hair back  :Big Grin:

----------


## jpm

> Why is the haircount increasing in the placebo group?
> Even when you look at the average of all subjects it is increasing after one year.


 I'm curious about this too!

----------


## tizzle

maybe there were many hair follicles which went from resting to growing phase (sorry i dont know the scientific terms)

I read a study once (i think it was a Fin Study) where i saw the same thing

----------


## WillhasWill

> Why is the haircount increasing in the placebo group?
> Even when you look at the average of all subjects it is increasing after one year.


 It almost shows that there is a tendency to be over generous. Human error still occurs I'd imagine when counting hairs and when your conducting a study into a treatment for hairloss, you'll always want to see more hairs. But the people conducting the study do not know who had the real injection or placebo.

----------


## bigentries

The hair count increasing in the placebo group is probably a mixture of margin of error and the nature of the hair cycle

----------


## john2399

> But if you look at the figure referenced in that note, it shows photos displaying a hair count going from a baseline of 214.5 hairs to 324.5 hairs after one year, which is only a 51.2% increase.


 Why do all your comments seem like you are rooting for this to fail. Which side are you on here?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Why do all your comments seem like you are rooting for this to fail. Which side are you on here?


 He is probably not bald or balding, that's why.

Rather, he gets a kick out of tormenting bald guys.

----------


## jpm

> The hair count increasing in the placebo group is probably a mixture of margin of error and the nature of the hair cycle


 Sounds logical and in fairness all results come with a margin of error +/- a certain %.

so an increase of 5% (+/-6%) which means it could and increase of 11% or even a decrease of 1%.

----------


## Nilli57211

> Okay, so. In order to stop these figures flying back and forth all over BTT and the other forums... I have bought the Histogen paper published in the JDD and linked to on their website. Cost 15 USD for a one-time purchase. Unfortunately I am not a student any more I would have free access to journals like these through my university but oh well, 15 USD is a small price to pay.
> 
> So here are the official figures from Histogen, published in the peer-reviewed journal.
> 
> At 3 months:
> 
> Shaft thickness +6%
> Thickness density +13%
> Terminal hair count +21%
> ...


 If TOTAL hair count increased, that means that the treatment must have induced a few entirely new follicles to form as well. That's the understanding I always had - I believe what I read in one of their articles or press releases that HSC was effective in transforming vellus hairs back to terminal hairs, and it also appeared to create brand new terminal follicles as well.

Histogen has absolutely blown everyone else out of the water so far. I see this as being the possible cure, especially if they really are creating new follicles in addition to reversing miniaturization. I am cautiously optimistic about this being the cure for people with bald scalps and very optimistic about this being the solution with people who just have thinning. Go Histogen!

----------


## gmonasco

> Why do all your comments seem like you are rooting for this to fail. Which side are you on here?


 I'm on the side of promoting accurate information and realistic expectations.  Which side are you on?

----------


## Horseshoe

> Just reading through the Histogen article and it states, 'HSC's effect on hair growth was concentrated within 1-2mm of the site of injection'.
> 
> I read somewhere that it spread out 
> once injected...otherwise you would need hundreds of injections. ouch!


 It can't be any worse then getting micro scalp pigmentation. So for the real deal, sign me up.

----------


## gmonasco

> I read somewhere that it spread out once injected...otherwise you would need hundreds of injections. ouch!


 That still sounds better than the thousands of slits in your scalp that an HT requires, doesn't it?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I'm on the side of promoting accurate information and realistic expectations.  Which side are you on?


 Its grown hair though

----------


## krewel

This is incredible and it's just Phase I. I already thought they're good, but not that good..

----------


## jpm

Anyone got any news as to what is being said at this conference thats going on?

----------


## 2020

> I read somewhere that it spread out once injected...otherwise you would need hundreds of injections. ouch!


 ^ that's my biggest worry right now.... 2mm is nothing. That's less than the size of your fingernail.
To apply all that growth on your entire head would need 50,000+ injections...

----------


## gmonasco

> Its grown hair though


 It has, but the important question, as always, is how much of that growth is truly "new" hair (i.e., newly-created follices or revived "dead" follicles) rather than existing hair that has just come out of the telogen (i.e., resting) phase.  Histogen's paper references the latter:

"Preclinical studies demonstrated no safety issues and *suggested that the induction of anagen in telogen follicles* in a murine model of hair growth might be accelerated by injection of HSC."

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> It has, but the important question, as always, is how much of that growth is truly "new" hair (i.e., newly-created follices or revived "dead" follicles) rather than existing hair that has just come out of the telogen (i.e., resting) phase.  Histogen's paper references the latter:
> 
> "Preclinical studies demonstrated no safety issues and *suggested that the induction of anagen in telogen follicles* in a murine model of hair growth might be accelerated by injection of HSC."


 Well either way, don't you think this is better then NOTHING? Given what we have on the market are full of side effects. Heck, if it wasn't for the sides, I would probably be using propecia right now.

TBH imo I think histogens treatment will benefit both diffuse thinners and early norwoods. May also give high NWs more coverage after a hair transplant.

----------


## gmonasco

> Well either way, don't you think this is better then NOTHING?


 Maybe, maybe not.  Some have suggested that minoxidil works primarily by coaxing telogen follicles out of the resting phase, so if that's what HSC is doing, it might not be so different in kind from existing treatments.

The point is that just what HSC is doing, how well it's doing it, and whether it's safe are still issues that are very much up in the air and won't be known until more testing is completed.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Maybe, maybe not.  Some have suggested that minoxidil works primarily by coaxing telogen follicles out of the resting phase, so if that's what HSC is doing, it might not be so different in kind from existing treatments.
> 
> The point is that just what HSC is doing, how well it's doing it, and whether it's safe are still issues that are very much up in the air and won't be known until more testing is completed.


 Well unlike minox, HSC does not need to be reapplied everyday.

----------


## clandestine

> Anyone got any news as to what is being said at this conference thats going on?


 10characters

----------


## The Alchemist

> It has, but the important question, as always, is how much of that growth is truly "new" hair (i.e., newly-created follices or revived "dead" follicles) rather than existing hair that has just come out of the telogen (i.e., resting) phase.  Histogen's paper references the latter:
> 
> "Preclinical studies demonstrated no safety issues and *suggested that the induction of anagen in telogen follicles* in a murine model of hair growth might be accelerated by injection of HSC."


 I believe the study design will tease out what's due to natural cycling and what's due to the treatment.  That's what the control injections are for.  The area getting vehicle only will have hairs cycling just the same as the area treated with HSC.  Any statistically significant differences between the two should be due to the treatment.

----------


## gmonasco

> I believe the study design will tease out what's due to natural cycling and what's due to the treatment.  That's what the control injections are for.  The area getting vehicle only will have hairs cycling just the same as the area treated with HSC.  Any statistically significant differences between the two should be due to the treatment.


 But if the treatment is actually promoting early cycling (rather than "natural" cycling), will such an approach distinguish the difference?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> But if the treatment is actually promoting early cycling (rather than "natural" cycling), will such an approach distinguish the difference?


 I think you need to stop asking questions like this.

These guys are professional scientists, I am sure when developing this product, they have already thought about the things you are writing about. Due to the nature of this being very hands on. So, if anything, as much as anyone else, Histogen want to get their product out there.

The results are so far very promising, take heed in that. A bunch of forumers, can at best speculate.

----------


## The Alchemist

> But if the treatment is actually promoting early cycling (rather than "natural" cycling), will such an approach distinguish the difference?


 You mean in the same way that Minox will force hairs into the growth phase of the hair cycle?  That's an interesting point. 

If they are testing in a$$ bald areas, where terminal hair hasn't grown in a long time, they might get some answers to that question.

Also, observing the hairs over 1-2 years, tracking hair cycling, changes in hair diameter, affects on local tissue enviroment etc..  might give some insight in to that.   They know that doomed hairs start spending more and more time in the telogen phase, they grow back thinner and thinner everytime...so maybe tracking those parameters will give some insight into what's happening.

----------


## Nilli57211

I'm sure these people are not stupid - they know what they are doing and would not mistake new hair follicles and miniaturized-to-terminal follicles for simply follicles being coaxed out of the telogen phase. I also don't think that simply coaxing follicles out of the telogen phase would produce that much regrowth.

They actually saw an increase in terminal hairs - as far as I know, Rogaine does not give people more terminal hair. If they actually analyzed some of the individual hairs and saw that specific hairs that were once miniaturized are now terminal (which I don't know if they've done), that would help their case as well.

----------


## BoSox

I think it's funny people are comparing Histogen to Rogaine or anything else out there today. That's like comparing a Cessna to an F-16.

Can't wait for Histogen, only a few more years of this crap..I can do it.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I think it's funny people are comparing Histogen to Rogaine or anything else out there today. That's like comparing a Cessna to an F-16.
> 
> Can't wait for Histogen, only a few more years of this crap..I can do it.


 Goes to show how pessimistic people are.

----------


## Kirby_

I can understand why the old timers are so pessimistic... They've had plenty of knockbacks and false hopes.  :Frown:

----------


## Pate

> you bought this?
> http://www.*************/hair-loss/im...879_file54.pdf
> 
> hairsite already had it apparently....


 Weird, I tried to search for it but I didn't find it... that is the same paper though mine is better quality and not covered in those "PENALTIES APPLY" warnings. Oh well, not bothered by $15 and I am happy to support the journal publishing Histogen's results.  :Wink: 




> But if you look at the figure referenced in that note, it shows photos displaying a hair count going from a baseline of 214.5 hairs to 324.5 hairs after one year, which is only a 51.2% increase.


 That is a typo, it should say there was a 123.4% increase in TERMINAL hair count, not total hair count, and a 51.2% increase in total hair count as you say. This is what it says in Ziering's presentation at ISHRS in Alaska last year, on the last page of his abstract where the same picture is shown. There are a couple of other typos in this paper too, for instance it refers to a 2mm scale bar but there is no scale bar on the pic.

Regardless, BoSox is right, this was a fluke result *at this stage*. The average result was much lower (30% terminal, 16% total) to the point where we really need the treatment to be compoundable to stand any hope of an effective treatment.




> Why is the haircount increasing in the placebo group?
> Even when you look at the average of all subjects it is increasing after one year.


 It's not increasing significantly, in fact statistically most of those values are well within 1 standard deviation. I suspect there is a very small, sub-conscious bias on the part of the testers. In the back of their mind they know that they are counting the 12 month results and even though they don't know if they have a placebo or a real injection, they might count a hair here and there that is borderline, or round off a thickness measurement, etc. It's nothing to worry about here because if it's less than 1 std deviation away from zero it is statistically insignificant.

The other faint possibility that has been raised before about placebos apparently working in these trials is that the wounding caused by the needle and the injection of placebo is actually trigging a small hair growth response. Wounding forms a major part of Follica's research into growing hair. 




> ^ that's my biggest worry right now.... 2mm is nothing. That's less than the size of your fingernail.
> To apply all that growth on your entire head would need 50,000+ injections...


 50,000 is much too high an estimate... 2mm spacing would mean 4mm between injections. Assuming there is a bit of overlap beyond 2mm you could probably get away with a 4x4mm square grid pattern, which is 2.5 injections per linear centimetre or 6.25 per square centimetre. So in a 10x10cm area you'd need 625 injections. Work out how many 10x10cm areas you'd need treatment on and that's how many you need, for me it would be about 1250. Even a NW7 wouldn't need much more than 2000 I think... of course there is no guarantee this stuff works on NW7s, it probably doesn't because the follicles are too far gone and the blood supply isn't there. All the more reason to hang onto every follicle you can while you're waiting!




> If TOTAL hair count increased, that means that the treatment must have induced a few entirely new follicles to form as well. That's the understanding I always had - I believe what I read in one of their articles or press releases that HSC was effective in transforming vellus hairs back to terminal hairs, and it also appeared to create brand new terminal follicles as well.


 Not necessarily. At any time in the balding cycle many of your hair follicles are resting. If total hair count increased, it just means that less of your follicles are resting and more are producing hair. It doesn't mean HSC created brand new follicles from scratch, or even that it reactivated dormant ones. Of course, we hope it did! But it's more likely IMO that the increase in total hair count is just because HSC stimulated some of the short-lived vellus hairs into longer-lived terminal hairs, so more of them were showing when then photo was taken.

I read that press release too, but we've since decided the language was a bit ambiguous, they didn't actually say they created new follicles from scratch, they just said they created new hairs - this may mean a dormant follicle that wasn't producing hair that showed above the skin's surface.

----------


## Maradona

> Weird, I tried to search for it but I didn't find it... that is the same paper though mine is better quality and not covered in those "PENALTIES APPLY" warnings. Oh well, not bothered by $15 and I am happy to support the journal publishing Histogen's results. 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a typo, it should say there was a 123.4% increase in TERMINAL hair count, not total hair count, and a 51.2% increase in total hair count as you say. This is what it says in Ziering's presentation at ISHRS in Alaska last year, on the last page of his abstract where the same picture is shown. There are a couple of other typos in this paper too, for instance it refers to a 2mm scale bar but there is no scale bar on the pic.
> 
> Regardless, BoSox is right, this was a fluke result *at this stage*. The average result was much lower (30% terminal, 16% total) to the point where we really need the treatment to be compoundable to stand any hope of an effective treatment.
> 
> 
> ...


 Does anybody know if histogen will reveal some results by june 2012? the clinical trials website says data for primary study is supposed to be completed june 2012.

I'm trying to avoid FIN at all costs...so maybe should i wait?

----------


## Pate

They supposedly released some results at a conference two days ago, but as yet nobody has been able to find out anything about it. 

If you want to avoid fin at all costs you should be praying for CB-03-01 results, not Histogen.  :Smile:

----------


## Nilli57211

> Not necessarily. At any time in the balding cycle many of your hair follicles are resting. If total hair count increased, it just means that less of your follicles are resting and more are producing hair. It doesn't mean HSC created brand new follicles from scratch, or even that it reactivated dormant ones. Of course, we hope it did! But it's more likely IMO that the increase in total hair count is just because HSC stimulated some of the short-lived vellus hairs into longer-lived terminal hairs, so more of them were showing when then photo was taken.
> 
> I read that press release too, but we've since decided the language was a bit ambiguous, they didn't actually say they created new follicles from scratch, they just said they created new hairs - this may mean a dormant follicle that wasn't producing hair that showed above the skin's surface.


 So Histogen will be more likely to work on people with thinning rather than bald spots - that's pretty much the case even with Rogaine or anything else out there. I personally hope it will be able to give everyone back all their hair, but that may be too optimistic...

Anyway, if they really are able to re-create the embryonic environment in the scalp, it may actually be possible that they can form entirely new follicles.

Also, I would hope that they would be able to tell the difference between a newly formed follicle and a dormant follicle reawakened. Wouldn't they be able to see the locations of follicles (even if they don't currently have hair in them) with their microscopes? If so, they would be able to tell which follicles were there from the beginning and just now being reawakened, and which ones are brand new. Some clarification on this from the company would be nice.

----------


## Maradona

> They supposedly released some results at a conference two days ago, but as yet nobody has been able to find out anything about it. 
> 
> If you want to avoid fin at all costs you should be praying for CB-03-01 results, not Histogen.


 I think i'll be a norwood 7 when CB 03 01 comes out. Norwood 4 optimistically, but i doubt it.

Histogen , if succesful, might be available sooner than we think .

CB Acne vehicle won't do anything, people have been using CB with better vehicles and NOTHING. CB for mpb hasn't even started trials .

So Histogen it is, at least for now ...

----------


## Maradona

> So Histogen will be more likely to work on people with thinning rather than bald spots - that's pretty much the case even with Rogaine or anything else out there. I personally hope it will be able to give everyone back all their hair, but that may be too optimistic...
> 
> Anyway, if they really are able to re-create the embryonic environment in the scalp, it may actually be possible that they can form entirely new follicles.
> 
> Also, I would hope that they would be able to tell the difference between a newly formed follicle and a dormant follicle reawakened. Wouldn't they be able to see the locations of follicles (even if they don't currently have hair in them) with their microscopes? If so, they would be able to tell which follicles were there from the beginning and just now being reawakened, and which ones are brand new. Some clarification on this from the company would be nice.


 forget about it, nothing will give hair in a bald scalp. It's like growing a plant out of a rock, the tissue for hair survival is DEAD.

----------


## Nilli57211

> forget about it, nothing will give hair in a bald scalp. It's like growing a plant out of a rock, the tissue for hair survival is DEAD.


 Not necessarily - research has shown that follicles in bald scalps are still alive decades later. Miniaturized but alive. I'm sure this would be more easily successful on someone with only thinning rather than balding, but you never know - it could be just a matter of dosage. Someone with a bald scalp could just need larger amounts injected.

----------


## Pate

> So Histogen will be more likely to work on people with thinning rather than bald spots - that's pretty much the case even with Rogaine or anything else out there. I personally hope it will be able to give everyone back all their hair, but that may be too optimistic....


 Pretty much. Replicel definitely did grow new follicles from scratch in mice, which was an amazing achievement, especially since there was no supporting skin structure there like sebaceous glands and blood supply. But currently there is probably no realistic prospect of growing new follicles en masse in humans, ie a baldness cure. There are three parts to treating baldness:

1. Protecting healthy follicles from becoming damaged
2. Rejuvenating damaged follicles
3. Growing new follicles in skin where the original follicles have been damaged beyond repair

So far medical science is still struggling with #1, with only one drug approved for it and that drug being far from ideal. CB-03-01 will hopefully improve on it with no sides. Drug therapy has proven almost totally ineffective at #2 except in the early stages. Even castration in males doesn't change those vellus hairs back to terminal, suggesting that whatever the androgens trigger in the follicle is permanent. Histogen is probably going to be best for #2.

#3 is still a pipe dream I'm afraid. Aderans may be able to grow some but haven't been able to regrow a full head of hair (or anything close so far). Replicel, well, we all know how that went. Let's just say they are a long way away from reproducing the effect in their promotional video.




> Anyway, if they really are able to re-create the embryonic environment in the scalp, it may actually be possible that they can form entirely new follicles


 It's a possibility. But I don't think they necessarily create the embryonic environment _in the scalp_. They create the embryonic environment in their bioreactor and get the cells to start pumping out growth factors, which they collect up and then inject.

I honestly believe somebody will perfect a viable baldness cure through the Replicel/Aderans method eventually. I just don't think I will be this side of 50 when it happens (which is 20 years away).

----------


## Maradona

> Pretty much. Replicel definitely did grow new follicles from scratch in mice, which was an amazing achievement, especially since there was no supporting skin structure there like sebaceous glands and blood supply. But currently there is probably no realistic prospect of growing new follicles en masse in humans, ie a baldness cure. There are three parts to treating baldness:
> 
> 1. Protecting healthy follicles from becoming damaged
> 2. Rejuvenating damaged follicles
> 3. Growing new follicles in skin where the original follicles have been damaged beyond repair
> 
> So far medical science is still struggling with #1, with only one drug approved for it and that drug being far from ideal. CB-03-01 will hopefully improve on it with no sides. Drug therapy has proven almost totally ineffective at #2 except in the early stages. Even castration in males doesn't change those vellus hairs back to terminal, suggesting that whatever the androgens trigger in the follicle is permanent. Histogen is probably going to be best for #2.
> 
> #3 is still a pipe dream I'm afraid. Aderans may be able to grow some but haven't been able to regrow a full head of hair (or anything close so far). Replicel, well, we all know how that went. Let's just say they are a long way away from reproducing the effect in their promotional video.
> ...


 You're missing the key here: MPB, our tissue is designed to kill hair follicles when the gene activates due to DHT. Easy to grow hair on non-MPB areas, jahoda did it long ago. All companies aim for 2 for two reasons: better results, give the appearance of new hair follicles and attract investors. The only company brave enough to try it out on slick  bald scalp is ARI. 

They've all been incosistent replicel, ARI, intercytex and Gho who started HM a long long time ago. There is in fact a point of no return even if the hair follicles is miniaturized, really miniaturized.

----------


## Pate

> I think i'll be a norwood 7 when CB 03 01 comes out. Norwood 4 optimistically, but i doubt it.
> 
> Histogen , if succesful, might be available sooner than we think .
> 
> CB Acne vehicle won't do anything, people have been using CB with better vehicles and NOTHING. CB for mpb hasn't even started trials .
> 
> So Histogen it is, at least for now ...


 Well you can get CB right now. If you're willing to pay the price for it and mix it yourself.  :Wink:  Or RU. Similar stuff.

But if you're talking about getting it on the open market, I think it all comes down to effectiveness for CB. If it achieves what it sets out to do (stop further hair loss, regrow maybe a little bit, no systemic sides) then they can push it through trials and launch it while Histogen might be doing their best Aderans impression and re-running Phase II for five years straight. 

CB could easily beat HSC to market, scary as the thought is.

But it's stupid arguing about it anyway. They are both at least 2 years away and if/when one comes to market we will probably all be using it, no matter what it is!

----------


## Pate

[QUOTE=Maradona;63002] You're missing the key here: MPB, our tissue is designed to kill hair follicles when the gene activates due to DHT. 

I don't think I'm missing the key. You have a good point about the extra-toxic environment in balding scalp. But it doesn't mean #2 and #3 are a waste of time. Just adds an extra level of complexity. In this case it might mean using CB-03-01 and HSC together, or something like that. 





> There is in fact a point of no return even if the hair follicles is miniaturized, really miniaturized.


 I agree. I don't think HSC will work on NW7 slick bald scalp. Not only are the follicles too far gone but the blood supply and other supporting structures in the skin have atrophied away. But I think as long as the follicle is still producing a vellus hair that breaks the surface of the skin, there is hope.

At least, I bloody well hope there is hope.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Maradona

[QUOTE=Pate;63004]


> You're missing the key here: MPB, our tissue is designed to kill hair follicles when the gene activates due to DHT. 
> 
> I don't think I'm missing the key. You have a good point about the extra-toxic environment in balding scalp. But it doesn't mean #2 and #3 are a waste of time. Just adds an extra level of complexity. In this case it might mean using CB-03-01 and HSC together, or something like that. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I don't think HSC will work on NW7 slick bald scalp. Not only are the follicles too far gone but the blood supply and other supporting structures in the skin have atrophied away. But I think as long as the follicle is still producing a vellus hair that breaks the surface of the skin, there is hope.
> 
> At least, I bloody well hope there is hope.


 I agree with you man. This is why I'm thinking on throwing in .5mg of fin till HSC or any other company come to market. Just to keep these follicles under control you know?

But I am damned scared of permanent sides.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

[QUOTE=Maradona;63005]


> I agree with you man. This is why I'm thinking on throwing in .5mg of fin till HSC or any other company come to market. Just to keep these follicles under control you know?
> 
> But I am damned scared of permanent sides.


 If you are not thinning right now, but just receeding. (mature hairline?)

I very much doubt you will be a NW4 or NW7 in 2 years.

The guys with the aggressive loss are normally in their late teens and are diffuse thinning.

----------


## jpm

I do enjoy reading your posts Pate. They are very informative and you sound quite clued up!

I think that if/when HSC is released it will be a major step forward. On most younger guys the hair follicle is still there and not been out of commission for too long. Therefore I think that HSC would still be able to grow hairs out of these follicles.

If you have lost your hair for a long time and the follicles are ''dead'' then HSC would work very well as an adjunct treatment to a HT.

I'm just hoping that sometime soon Histogen do trials on the whole scalp so we can see how it works in certain areas. Crown, temples, top of head etc

----------


## BoSox

When will we have another interview from Histogen?

----------


## UK_

[QUOTE=yeahyeahyeah;63008]


> If you are not thinning right now, but just receeding. (mature hairline?)
> 
> I very much doubt you will be a NW4 or NW7 in 2 years.
> 
> The guys with the aggressive loss are normally in their late teens and are diffuse thinning.


 yeh - thing is so many times a mature hairline is confused with balding - it really isnt the same thing, when you go bald you're thinning very early on & shedding loads + even if they did cure hair loss I wouldnt want a juvenile hairline that would look stupid if you're in your mid - late 30's, it's the thinning crown & SIGNIFICANT frontal recession that's the issue.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yeh - thing is so many times a mature hairline is confused with balding - it really isnt the same thing, when you go bald you're thinning very early on & shedding loads + even if they did cure hair loss I wouldnt want a juvenile hairline that would look stupid if you're in your mid - late 30's, it's the thinning crown & SIGNIFICANT frontal recession that's the issue.


 How much hair do you guys shed with aggressive loss?

----------


## CVAZBAR

According to Spencer, Dr Z has some exciting news. Hopefully he gets the interview soon.

----------


## Mojo Risin

Surprise, now that they know Replicel's results are shit, they have ''exciting'' news to announce ...

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> According to Spencer, Dr Z has some exciting news. Hopefully he gets the interview soon.


 When will that be?

----------


## thechamp

I can only Handel fin once a week I gain so much weight if I take any more how often are you going to be taking the fin?

----------


## BoSox

Been taking Fin for 5 years, 0 side effects. You'd be a fool not to take this drug, save your hair for HSC.

That aside, can we stay on the topic of Histogen please.. we have other threads for other topics.

----------


## jpm

> According to Spencer, Dr Z has some exciting news. Hopefully he gets the interview soon.


 Where did you hear Spencer say this out of interest? 

I think the exciting news will be off the back of some of the things they have talked about at the recent conference. Anyone have any idea what Histogen said at the conference?

----------


## neversaynever

> Where did you hear Spencer say this out of interest? 
> 
> I think the exciting news will be off the back of some of the things they have talked about at the recent conference. Anyone have any idea what Histogen said at the conference?


 I dont think people should get excited about their exciting news.

They'll probably end up saying "the big news is that it's safe, and we are seeing increased hair counts. This makes us confident that when phase 2 finishes, we should have good results".

It will be vague. Remember they are still very early into their phase 2, they are a long way from publishing results.

They've always been the biggest hope of the big 4 research groups, because they are getting results, and kept us updated. And the way they plan to release earlier in Asia is a big big plus. But I really dont see what exciting news they'll have when they're not even 6 months into phase 2.

----------


## neversaynever

Would be nice if spencer can ask Dr Z what he thinks of Dr Cotsarelis' findings concerning prostaglandin D.

If prostaglandin D is the bullet that shrinks our follicles (DHT being the gun?), then it should be of great interest to Histogen.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I dont think people should get excited about their exciting news.
> 
> They'll probably end up saying "the big news is that it's safe, and we are seeing increased hair counts. This makes us confident that when phase 2 finishes, we should have good results".
> 
> It will be vague. Remember they are still very early into their phase 2, they are a long way from publishing results.
> 
> They've always been the biggest hope of the big 4 research groups, because they are getting results, and kept us updated. And the way they plan to release earlier in Asia is a big big plus. But I really dont see what exciting news they'll have when they're not even 6 months into phase 2.


 Any POSITIVE news is an encouraging sign that a CURE is near. It also means that histogen are on track to release a viable product. Rather that then hear nothing at all, like follica.

I don't get why people on here are SO NEGATIVE. Do you guys want a better hairloss solution or what?

----------


## neversaynever

> Any POSITIVE news is an encouraging sign that a CURE is near. It also means that histogen are on track to release a viable product. Rather that then hear nothing at all, like follica.
> 
> I don't get why people on here are SO NEGATIVE. Do you guys want a better hairloss solution or what?


 Im not negative. I believe they'll bring a product to the world, but I dont believe they'll have any big news in the next few weeks. And I really dont think histogen will provide us with a cure! I think it'll be a treatment that will bury current 'treatments'. 

Unless the exciting news is that theyve found a formula of HSC that wakes up sleeping stem cells.

----------


## tizzle

who knows. they inject more hsc in trial no2 so its imaginable that there are even better result. Even in the early stages of the trial.

but i think is wise to keep expectations low

----------


## BoSox

How the f*ck can you guys be so negative about Histogen? I'm SURE their news will be exciting, they've already proven themselves in phase 1 with incredible results.


Lighten the f*ck up, seriously.

----------


## neversaynever

> How the f*ck can you guys be so negative about Histogen? I'm SURE their news will be exciting, they've already proven themselves in phase 1 with incredible results.
> 
> 
> Lighten the f*ck up, seriously.


 Noones being negative. How can they provide such amazing news so early into their phase 2 trial? Is that so hard to understand?

Eventually sure, but there is still alot of time.

----------


## BoSox

> Noones being negative. How can they provide such amazing news so early into their phase 2 trial? Is that so hard to understand?
> 
> Eventually sure, but there is still alot of time.


 They said that got positive news to report, let's just leave it at that. From what I've already heard and seen from Histogen, any additional good news is something to be excited about. 

I guess we'll see exactly what

----------


## jpm

> They said that got positive news to report, let's just leave it at that. From what I've already heard and seen from Histogen, any additional good news is something to be excited about. 
> 
> I guess we'll see exactly what


 I agree. Histogen are already very exciting in the progress they have made and the potential to produce a very good treatment. Therefore any other exciting news, no matter how small, is a bonus.

By the way, everyone who says that at 3 months its too early to have any news. At 3 months during the Phase 1/2 trial, 16% regrowth had already been seen!!

----------


## neversaynever

> I agree. Histogen are already very exciting in the progress they have made and the potential to produce a very good treatment. Therefore any other exciting news, no matter how small, is a bonus.
> 
> By the way, everyone who says that at 3 months its too early to have any news. At 3 months during the Phase 1/2 trial, 16% regrowth had already been seen!!


 I get confused with the histogen % figures. Is that 16% average across all patients or just the highest figure at that point?

----------


## 2020

There is no reason to be negative at this point.... They're not cloning cells or anything, their procedure isn't nearly as complicated compared to other guys. As long as their stuff doesn't grow tumors at high doses, everything else will work out  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## gmonasco

How does Histogen come up with hair count figures like 126.5?  What constitutes half a hair?  Is there some kind of averaging procedure involved in the hair count process?

----------


## 2020

> I get confused with the histogen % figures. Is that 16% average across all patients or just the highest figure at that point?


 dude.... it's all on the first page of their site:

http://jddonline.com/articles/dermatology/1650




> At the initial 12-week evaluation period, HSC-treated sites demonstrated an increase in hair shaft thickness (6.3% ± 2.5% vs. -0.63% ± 2.1%; P=0.046), thickness density (12.8% ± 4.5% vs. -0.2% ± 2.9%; P=0.028), and terminal hair density (20.6 ± 4.9% vs. 4.4 ± 4.9%; P=0.029).


 terminal hair density: average was 20.6% with some subjects getting as much as ~25% and as low as ~16%

----------


## Supersixx

I think Histogen is gonna be the answer .. Their definately going in the right direction. Results so far were promising compared to replicel. Can't wait til it hits the market. Just can't believe how histogen is being dogged here and they actually produced way more visual hair than replicel. Should be all praises especially when replicel disappointed so much but was highly defended here. Replicel would of killed (figure speech) for histogens results. And that was just safety trials. Lol . If exciting news is coming giving they previous release , I'm tuned in!!!!! More optimistic than last week and a little less skeptic. 51/49.

----------


## neversaynever

> I think Histogen is gonna be the answer .. Their definately going in the right direction. Results so far were promising compared to replicel. Can't wait til it hits the market. Just can't believe how histogen is being dogged here and they actually produced way more visual hair than replicel. Should be all praises especially when replicel disappointed so much but was highly defended here. Replicel would of killed (figure speech) for histogens results. And that was just safety trials. Lol . If exciting news is coming giving they previous release , I'm tuned in!!!!! More optimistic than last week and a little less skeptic. 51/49.


 Agreed, its pretty impressive results from a single injection so far. Im not shiney bald anywhere on my head, YET. Anyone know if they are including shiney bald scalps in their phase 2 trial?

----------


## Pate

> Agreed, its pretty impressive results from a single injection so far. Im not shiney bald anywhere on my head, YET. Anyone know if they are including shiney bald scalps in their phase 2 trial?


 Don't know for sure but I doubt it. They will try it on bald scalp eventually but for now they need results so they can secure funding, and everything we know about HSC points to it being more effective (and possibly only effective) on thinning hair.

Funny thing that I noticed reading their published paper is that there were actually FOUR injections in each of the four treatment sites (ie sixteen injections total). They keep talking about 'a single injection' but they must mean from a time point of view (ie no follow-up injection).

That also explains why the area responding to treatment looked bigger than 2mm radius. It's because there were actually multiple injections in a square pattern.

----------


## BoSox

> HSC points to it being more effective (and possibly only effective) on thinning hair.


 How thin can the hair be in order for HSC to work? Do you think it will only work on hairs that are "just" beginning to thin, or ones that are barely visable.
I'm just concerned that the hairs that are thinning now will be damaged beyond repair by the time HSC is released.

What do you guys think?

----------


## 2020

> I'm just concerned that the hairs that are thinning now will be damaged beyond repair by the time HSC is released.


 no such thing. Your hairs aren't "damaged". MPB has nothing to do with your immune system attacking them of anything. Your follicles are all there ready to grow, they just need a little help  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## neversaynever

> no such thing. Your hairs aren't "damaged". MPB has nothing to do with your immune system attacking them of anything. Your follicles are all there ready to grow, they just need a little help


 Not to sure about that. Its confirmed that the stem cells are there, but noone has revived dormant follicles yet.

I dont know enough about the biology of it, but I remember seeing pictures of follicles at different stages, including the dormant phase. All the necessary components were there, but it just looked shriveled up.

If some scientists claim that all thats needed is the signal to tell the stem cells to get working, then here's hoping HSC can delivery that! Assuming its wnt signals and not something else.

It takes a very long time for a follicle to become dormant. From terminal, to thin, to velus, peach fuzz, and then it continues but the hair doesnt come through the skin. <<<<< If HSC can wake all those up then I'm saved. For the people who have been shiney bald for 5 years or more....who knows. It would be pretty stupid to only be testing it out on thinning patients, so I'm sure histogen will have 'some' news soon enough. They still doing a 3 month update?

----------


## Losing_It

Well, I need to read the paper again because I was not aware that each treatment area received 4 injections. Lets all stay positive. At least we have companies working on this. I suppose that is all we can ask for.

----------


## bostonhooligan

Just found this:

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf

----------


## gmonasco

That paper references stimulating the growth of miniaturizing and resting hairs, but not creating new hairs.

----------


## BoSox

That is fantastic.. I love how it's effective on women as well.


can't wait !!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Gjm127

> Just found this:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf


 Wahooo!!!!

----------


## bostonhooligan

Biggest take-home message for me was:

"Phase I/II shows 46.5% greater increase in total hair count as compared to the Pilot HSC clinical trial at 12 weeks."

Great news!

----------


## 2020

HOLY SHIT!




> Terminal hair + 79.74&#37;


 79% growth AFTER ONLY THREE MONTHS?




> Phase I/II shows 46.5% greater increase in total hair count as compared to the Pilot HSC clinical trial at 12 weeks


 amazing.... just amazing. Time to celebrate  :Smile:

----------


## gmonasco

Again, note that "increased hair growth" is not the same thing as "created new hairs."  What's being referenced in the article is the stimulation of miniaturized and resting hairs, not the creation of new hair follicles.  It helps hair you already have, but may not do anything to make up for lost hair.

----------


## 25 going on 65

> Again, note that "increased hair growth" is not the same thing as "created new hairs."  What's being referenced in the article is the stimulation of miniaturized and resting hairs, not the creation of new hair follicles.


 But would creating new hair follicles be necessary if the issue is just genetic alopecia? Couldn't we just induce the existing follicles to grow hair?

----------


## jpm

> Just found this:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf


 This shows pretty good regrowth at the temples!!

Without tempting fate, I can't see what could go wrong. Maybe tumors, but that doesn't seem likely at this point

----------


## eqvist

Oooo my good this made me happy!!! Sick if this is going to work and hit the market!

----------


## gmonasco

> But would creating new hair follicles be necessary if the issue is just genetic alopecia? Couldn't we just induce the existing follicles to grow hair?


 You mean induce "dead" follicles to start growing hair again?  That may be all you need, but the Histogen article doesn't state that HSC is doing that.  What they're describing sounds like a more effective form of minoxidil -- something that strengthens existing hairs and prematurely coaxes resting hairs out of the telogen phase.

----------


## neversaynever

Looks good....

We need an interview. Is there an average hair count increase on that pdf? Cant see it.

Damn, its only slide 1 from their presentation. How long is phase 2 meant to be? 2 years?

----------


## jpm

> You mean induce "dead" follicles to start growing hair again?  That may be all you need, but the Histogen article doesn't state that HSC is doing that.  What they're describing sounds like a more effective form of minoxidil -- something that strengthens existing hairs and prematurely coaxes resting hairs out of the telogen phase.


 Thats why its important to keep as many follicles ''alive'' until HSC is released.

----------


## kaandereli

good find, well done!results are impressive , hopefully we seem to be approaching to the end!

----------


## clandestine

Look at that temple regrowth  :EEK!:

----------


## Gjm127

> Look at that temple regrowth


 CRAZY! This is absolutely nuts! 
It appears more they inject, more there's regrowth! 

People, today should mark the happiest day of our lives IMO.

----------


## neversaynever

> CRAZY! This is absolutely nuts! 
> It appears more they inject, more there's regrowth! 
> 
> People, today should mark the happiest day of our lives IMO.


 Damn vagueness! That picture of the temple looks like it has barely any hair, and now its filling up. At one year these results are going to be even better. I, WE need more details.

Also, I wonder if it would be beneficial to have HSC injections a few days after a HT? 

Id like an average across all 55 patients.

How long does this phase 2 last? is it like a phase 2b?

And we definately need more info on how sleeping follicles are responding. 

Exciting!

Grrrrrr. Should I get on fin? Hmmm

----------


## BoSox

Guys.. if you're not on Fin, you will regret it. HSC will cure us, maintain what you have with FDA approved drugs.

----------


## neversaynever

> Guys.. if you're not on Fin, you will regret it. HSC will cure us, maintain what you have with FDA approved drugs.


 When I opened this site just now, in big letters i saw "Fin Syndrome". Hmmmmmm.

Anyways, lets keep on topic.

----------


## 25 going on 65

> You mean induce "dead" follicles to start growing hair again?  That may be all you need, but the Histogen article doesn't state that HSC is doing that.  What they're describing sounds like a more effective form of minoxidil -- something that strengthens existing hairs and prematurely coaxes resting hairs out of the telogen phase.


 I see, thanks for clarifying that.
But I was under the impression that follicles no longer producing hair are not "dead" as much as in a permanent telogen phase. "Dormant" I guess. Am I wrong about that?

----------


## WashedOut

Look at those temples man. Those temples! This is the best thing this forum could get after Replicel results.

----------


## jpm

Is it too early to speculate on price?

----------


## jpm

oh and just on fin (dont mean to bring this thread off topic) and I know people have reservations about fin and i respect that.

But stabilizing hair loss with fin now could be a very wise move. If histogen is released around 2015 it would reap the best outcome if as many hair follicles are non-DHT inhibited as possible. Also in the next few years, CB and other new antiandrogens may very well be available. So keeping as much hair as possible for the next few years should be a priority.

Not to push anyone into fin, just my 2 pennies worth

----------


## neversaynever

> Is it too early to speculate on price?


 Not a huge cost I think. Its a product they can mass produce, and is only injections. Impossible to say really. Maybe like &#163;4000?

They might even over price, because in comparison it defeats fin and other drugs. But even over pricing it would probbaly keep it affordable.

Who knows.

Spencer...we need an interview!

So this is a Phase 1/2 trial. One year trial? Can anyone confirm?

Wish those temples were male temples....

----------


## greatjob!

The percent increases over baseline are very promising. However I see everyone getting so excited about the temple growth in the pictures, you do realize that is a woman in the pictures and not a man right?

----------


## mlao

> Guys.. if you're not on Fin, you will regret it. HSC will cure us, maintain what you have with FDA approved drugs.


 This is what I've always thought.

----------


## eqvist

> The percent increases over baseline are very promising. However I see everyone getting so excited about the temple growth in the pictures, you do realize that is a woman in the pictures and not a man right?


 Yes thats a ting i´m a bit worried abut! Why are they only pictures on the success on woman!? Good for the ladies but.......

----------


## gmonasco

> Why are they only pictures on the success on woman!


 Maybe because women don't get MPB; they lose hair differently than men?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I think Histogen is gonna be the answer .. Their definately going in the right direction. Results so far were promising compared to replicel. Can't wait til it hits the market. Just can't believe how histogen is being dogged here and they actually produced way more visual hair than replicel. Should be all praises especially when replicel disappointed so much but was highly defended here. Replicel would of killed (figure speech) for histogens results. And that was just safety trials. Lol . If exciting news is coming giving they previous release , I'm tuned in!!!!! More optimistic than last week and a little less skeptic. 51/49.


 I think this is an ideal treatment for those that are early norwoods.

Who can use a Hair transplant to correct their hairline, with HSC to thicken up any thinning areas. IF it fails to regrow hair in slick bald areas. 

I have a sneaky suspicion it will though.

----------


## NotDyingBald

This must be the most ironic day of my life.


As many of us, I´ve been waiting on Replicel/Histogen results to, let´s say, help me in the decision of going on Fin or not. After Replicel´s results, despite their really good or bad, i was dissapointed and scheduled with my dermatologist to hear some "final" words about Fin, based on a doctor´s experiencia prescribing Fin without any problems. Well yes, i got my first Fin prescription today.(Didn´t take it yet).

And now, i just open this thread and found this.

Is some kind of force trying to tell me something??

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Damn vagueness! That picture of the temple looks like it has barely any hair


 Exactly, its regrown hair on slick areas.

----------


## neversaynever

> Exactly, its regrown hair on slick areas.


 But near slick bald WOMAN. We will see...

----------


## 2020

> Yes thats a ting i´m a bit worried abut! Why are they only pictures on the success on woman!? Good for the ladies but.......


 because believe it or not, women's hair loss market is as big or even bigger than men's....
Last study was done exclusively on men. Women were wondering if it works for them too so Histogen responded to that with their Phase 1/2 results...





> Maybe because women don't get MPB; they lose hair differently than men?


 no... it's all the same dude

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> But near slick bald WOMAN. We will see...


 They have already proven that it has regrown hair on men in the pilot studies. (Just like 2020 has pointed out)

I don't see what the problem is.

----------


## neversaynever

> They have already proven that it has regrown hair on men in the pilot studies. (Just like 2020 has pointed out)
> 
> I don't see what the problem is.


 Regrown hair on men in slick or near slick areas?? I missed that info in the pilot study...

Can you point it to me please?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Regrown hair on men in slick or near slick areas?? I missed that info in the pilot study...
> 
> Can you point it to me please?


 http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#25




> In addition to the *number of new hairs*,* a statistically significant* *(p<0.05) increase in hair density, which is directly related to hair count over the treatment areas,* was also seen at the one-year timepoint. Other efficacy factors, such as hair thickness and terminal hair density, showed* an upward trend at this timepoint as well.* The pilot trial tested two formulations of HSC and, although one formulation was determined to be superior, significant new hair growth was seen in both groups. (p=0.032)


 This mimics the female pattern hairloss results.

----------


## 25 going on 65

> Exactly, its regrown hair on slick areas.


 If you zoom into the "before" pictures, her temples don't look quite slick, more like the hair there is highly miniaturized.
Higher resolution photos would be nice.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> If you zoom into the "before" pictures, her temples don't look quite slick, more like the hair there is highly miniaturized.
> Higher resolution photos would be nice.


 Fair enough, if that is the case e.g. super MINOX.

Then this product is great for lower norwoods, who can use this in conjunction with a HT to get back down to NW0.

----------


## gmonasco

> no... it's all the same dude


 Uh, no, it's not.  That's why the M in MPB stands for *male*.

----------


## 2020

> Uh, no, it's not.  That's why the M in MPB stands for *male*.


 yes because males lose hair in a different pattern than women.... MPB, FPB - all lose hair for the same reason.

The only one type of hair loss that's different from all others is ALOPECIA AREATA.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yes because males lose hair in a different pattern than women.... MPB, FPB - all lose hair for the same reason.
> 
> The only one type of hair loss that's different from all others is ALOPECIA AREATA.


 And more importantly HSC WORKS on MPB

Gmonasco is extremely pessimistic.

----------


## eqvist

Lucky me who doesn't have bald spot YET. If it can give me 50&#37; increase In my thinning spots I will be super happy!


I can&#180;t stop thinking "what if Histogen didn&#180;t hade problem with patent"

----------


## 2020

THE ONLY problem I have with this:

why so many injections?  :Confused:  Couldn't they just up the dose? It's great that it works but it would take 1000+ injections to boost every single spot on your head

----------


## eqvist

Double post

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> THE ONLY problem I have with this:
> 
> why so many injections?  Couldn't they just up the dose? It's great that it works but it would take 1000+ injections to boost every single spot on your head


 Thats the whole point of phase 2 , to test dosing etc.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Lucky me who doesn't have bald spot YET. If it can give me 50% increase In my thinning spots I will be super happy!
> 
> 
> I can´t stop thinking "what if Histogen didn´t hade problem with patent"


 You could just have a mature hairline.

Most guys I know with bald spots are noticeably thinning prior to developing one.

I would say that if you are a NW2 by your mid twenties, and are not shedding much, your hair will hold out until this comes out. Which should be 2016 MAX.

----------


## Nilli57211

> Again, note that "increased hair growth" is not the same thing as "created new hairs."  What's being referenced in the article is the stimulation of miniaturized and resting hairs, not the creation of new hair follicles.  It helps hair you already have, but may not do anything to make up for lost hair.


 Why are you always so negative? This is really exciting news! Their results are even better than they were in the pilot study, and I'm sure they'll probably keep on improving.

Even if all it does is stimulate resting follicles, that's freaking amazing. For people with bald scalps, it could get some of their hair back, and for people with thinning it could possibly be full recovery.

Do you not want them to succeed or something?

----------


## gmonasco

> yes because males lose hair in a different pattern than women


 And that difference is crucial.  Women tend to lose hair through overall thinning; men tend to lose hair through hairline recession and crown balding.  If you've got a treatment that revitalizes miniaturized hair, therefore, it's likely going to be much more effective for women, who still have hair everywhere, than for denuded areas of the male scalp.

----------


## neversaynever

> Why are you always so negative? This is really exciting news! Their results are even better than they were in the pilot study, and I'm sure they'll probably keep on improving.
> 
> Even if all it does is stimulate resting follicles, that's freaking amazing. For people with bald scalps, it could get some of their hair back, and for people with thinning it could possibly be full recovery.
> 
> Do you not want them to succeed or something?


 I dont think that is negative. Just stating a fact.

----------


## jpm

> Fair enough, if that is the case e.g. super MINOX.
> 
> Then this product is great for lower norwoods, who can use this in conjunction with a HT to get back down to NW0.


 would you want to go to a NW0, will most ethical Dr's do that?. I think you would look odd a NW0 at 50!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> would you want to go to a NW0, will most ethical Dr's do that?. I think you would look odd a NW0 at 50!


 Why not, if I have enough donor hair? 

TBH that argument of it looking weird at 50 is silly. It's a statement made by HT doctors in order to make the patient feel better about themselves with a more recessed hairline.





All with perfect NW0 hair, and don't look weird.

----------


## Nilli57211

> I dont think that is negative. Just stating a fact.


 That post wasn't particularly negative, but there's just a trend of his posts being extremely skeptical about results that have been produced.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> And that difference is crucial.  Women tend to lose hair through overall thinning; men tend to lose hair through hairline recession and crown balding.  If you've got a treatment that revitalizes miniaturized hair, therefore, it's likely going to be much more effective for women, who still have hair everywhere, than for denuded areas of the male scalp.


 So what has that go to do with the treatment not working for men with thinning spots?

----------


## gmonasco

> Even if all it does is stimulate resting follicles, that's freaking amazing. For people with bald scalps, it could get some of their hair back


 Hair follicles in a bald scalp aren't simply in the telogen (i.e., resting) phase.  A treatment that prompts early cycling of hair in the telogen phase therefore won't do anything for bald scalps.

----------


## Supersixx

> would you want to go to a NW0, will most ethical Dr's do that?. I think you would look odd a NW0 at 50!


 Where do some get the idea that having a Norwood 0 or youthful hairline at 50 or 60 makes you look odd? So what about all those senior citizens out there with a full head of hair (NW0) ? Do they look odd? Don't think so.  Who really wants to look old If they don't have to?  You are only as young as you feel and if you can look how you feel, go for it.......and another point, isn't looking young or keeping young, through finding a cure for MPB Everybodys objective here? Because last time I check , baldness adds years if not decades to ones appearance.

----------


## clandestine

> Why not, if I have enough donor hair? 
> 
> TBH that argument of it looking weird at 50 is silly. It's a statement made by HT doctors in order to make the patient feel better about themselves with a more recessed hairline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All with perfect NW0 hair, and don't look weird.


 What the **** is going on with these people? Do they all have hair transplants, or just lucky? I see literally no recession, I can't fathom it.

----------


## gmonasco

> That post wasn't particularly negative, but there's just a trend of his posts being extremely skeptical about results that have been produced.


 I'm not skeptical about the results; I'm skeptical about people here understanding what those results actually mean.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> What the **** is going on with these people? Do they all have hair transplants, or just lucky? I see literally no recession, I can't fathom it.


 They aren't balding.  :EEK!: 

This is why I think the whole concept of a "mature hairline" is BS.

At best a mature hairline is very slow MPB.

----------


## jpm

> Where do some get the idea that having a Norwood 0 or youthful hairline at 50 or 60 makes you look odd? So what about all those senior citizens out there with a full head of hair (NW0) ? Do they look odd? Don't think so.  Who really wants to look old If they don't have to?  You are only as young as you feel and if you can look how you feel, go for it.......and another point, isn't looking young or keeping young, through finding a cure for MPB Everybodys objective here? Because last time I check , baldness adds years if not decades to ones appearance.


 Well as we are obsessed by getting girls on this site I think you'll find that a lot of girls actually like having a guy with a slightly receeded hairline. I makes them look more mature and wiser.

I'm not going to argue. Just my opinion and we are all entitled to ours. 

Just seems silly to spend so much money, pain, time and effort to get a HT to a NW level that the vast majority don't have and women don't care in the slightest about

----------


## Kiwi

> I'm not skeptical about the results; I'm skeptical about people here understanding what those results actually mean.


 What do you know that the rest of us don't?

Histogen haven't posted any phase 2 results yet so neither of you guys actually know shit. You're both speculating. 

What I'd like to know is what is the difference between the follicles in a bald shiny head vs the follicles in bald thinning areas. 

In both cases there is no hair so how can histogen work for one and not the other. Genuine question  :Big Grin:

----------


## greatjob!

> I'm not skeptical about the results; I'm skeptical about people here understanding what those results actually mean.


 well said!!

----------


## gmonasco

> Histogen haven't posted any phase 2 results yet so neither of you guys actually know shit. You're both speculating.


 Highlighting information that Histogen itself has posted about its trial results is hardly "speculation."




> What do you know that the rest of us don't?


 How to read documents without the use of rose-colored glasses.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Well as we are obsessed by getting girls on this site I think you'll find that a lot of girls actually like having a guy with a slightly receeded hairline. I makes them look more mature and wiser.
> 
> I'm not going to argue. Just my opinion and we are all entitled to ours. 
> 
> Just seems silly to spend so much money, pain, time and effort to get a HT to a NW level that the vast majority don't have and women don't care in the slightest about


 If you are only a NW2, then getting down to at least a NW1 or 0 is realistic with future treatments.

And it isn't about the girls, I like the options you have with hair styling with a low norwood.

Finally, you are RIGHT, as long as your hair is presentable, it does not matter to women.

----------


## jpm

> If you are only a NW2, then getting down to at least a NW1 or 0 is realistic with future treatments.
> 
> And it isn't about the girls, I like the options you have with hair styling with a low norwood.
> 
> Finally, you are RIGHT, as long as your hair is presentable, it does not matter to women.


 Each to their own mate.

If the only thing in my life that was bugging me was wanting to be a NW1 from a NW2 I'd be a very very happy man lol

----------


## john2399

This is the answer dudes...histogen will lead us to a much better solution to treating this miserable disease. Lets hope it comes out very soon.

----------


## Gjm127

> This is the answer dudes...histogen will lead us to a much better solution to treating this miserable disease. Lets hope it comes out very soon.


 What's next for Histogen? Phase 3, Phase 4, FDA approval, etc...
I'm not asking for the exact date, does anyone have a legitimate projection of what the future holds for this company?

I am between NW1 and NW2 and I'm on Toco-8, Black Tea and Resveratrol. Should I keep at this until this treatment comes out?

----------


## john2399

> What's next for Histogen? Phase 3, Phase 4, FDA approval, etc...
> I'm not asking for the exact date, does anyone have a legitimate projection of what the future holds for this company?
> 
> I am between NW1 and NW2 and I'm on Toco-8, Black Tea and Resveratrol. Should I keep at this until this treatment comes out?


 They still have to finish phase 2 than go to phase 3. If everything goes well it could be avaible in asia by 2014 or even earlier. 2015 is more realistic for the United States.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I am between NW1 and NW2 and I'm on Toco-8, Black Tea and Resveratrol. Should I keep at this until this treatment comes out?


 As long as you are *maintaining*, then no don't change your regime. 

How old are you? If you are a NW1-2 and are maintaining, very much doubt that you will lose significant amounts of hair by the time it comes out.

----------


## 2020

I'm not sure, but do all these treatments have to go through Phase 3 for Asia? I think Phase 3 is only required for USA and such

----------


## Horseshoe

What's a NW7 to do? It seems like all this testing is being done on NW2&3. If there is no hope for a NW7 then i'm relegated to a scalp tattoo. A wig is out of the question... I hope there is hope.

----------


## gmonasco

> What's a NW7 to do? It seems like all this testing is being done on NW2&3.


 Don't give up!  They'll probably include a broader range of hair loss patterns in the next round of clinical trials.

----------


## john2399

> Don't give up!  They'll probably include a broader range of hair loss patterns in the next round of clinical trials.


 Wow look at you..finally said something positive lol

----------


## Deluxe

> Wow look at you..finally said something positive lol


 I don't usually post much, but when I do...jk...but, gmonasco is not trying to be negative.  While he doesn't verbalize his optimism much, I think he is one of the most level headed posters on here.

Funny thing is, I remember when I used to come to these sites and get very excited anytime a positive article came out, which almost always gave some vague timeline, it would lead to disappointment. After a while, you lose the shock value. 

On a positive note, I think these Histogen results are unbelievable, especially for those in early stages of hair loss.  The fact that results from prior trials have shown an increase in hairs as time went on is what I'm looking forward to the most.

While this may or may not help individuals who are more advanced sufferers, there are many others out there working on a full blown cure.  All of these Companies are learning from each other everyday, and it will not be long until everyone here will get what they deserve.  

Follica in my opinion will always be a wildcard.  They can come out of nowhere and surprise us all.  The beautiful thing here is that Histogen has shown amazing actual results that can only get better from here.

Head up guys.

----------


## BoSox

This is me, 2012. Didn't realize how bad my thinning was after I washed off concealer.

I have a feeling that once HSC is released, I won't be able to benefit from it  :Frown:  I ordered some Rogaine, going to add that to my Fin.. maybe laser comb, anything at this point I'm desperate. 

Why can't HSC be available sooner :/

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> This is me, 2012. Didn't realize how bad my thinning was after I washed off concealer.
> 
> I have a feeling that once HSC is released, I won't be able to benefit from it  I ordered some Rogaine, going to add that to my Fin.. maybe laser comb, anything at this point I'm desperate. 
> 
> Why can't HSC be available sooner :/


 Do you shed a lot?

----------


## Maradona

> Don't give up!  They'll probably include a broader range of hair loss patterns in the next round of clinical trials.


 let's be a realistic here. this result was for women who have low DHT, mild and recent hair loss.

won't grow hair in bald scalps that have been bald for years.

By the time this comes out we will be a nw7. You need to maintain to get some results that may not even happen because we don't know the results on MAN.

I achieved this same result but had to drop minox because of sides.

In resume all this is: a minoxidil on steroids.

Still helpful and you don't have to apply daily.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

You guys need go give histogen a chance.

I'm sure that they have thought about the concerns you have.

----------


## ccmethinning

> let's be a realistic here. this result was for women who have low DHT, mild and recent hair loss.


 are you sure the previous HSC trials were only on women?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> are you sure the previous HSC trials were only on women?


 No preclinical was on Men

----------


## ccmethinning

> No preclinical was on Men


 Does that mean that "no preclinicals were done on men" or "no, preclinicals were indeed done on men" ? very ambiguous wording

----------


## BoSox

> Do you shed a lot?


 no i don't.

----------


## inkt2002

Will Histogen show results where a transplant has been done?

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Holy moly! I don't check in on this for a few days and when I come back I see these incredible results! Well well. What a nice start to the week. Puts a spring in the step. No hiccups in the trials now please. Getting closer guys.

----------


## Gjm127

> As long as you are *maintaining*, then no don't change your regime. 
> 
> How old are you? If you are a NW1-2 and are maintaining, very much doubt that you will lose significant amounts of hair by the time it comes out.


 I'm 20 now. Became NW1 when I was 18, and now almost NW2 at 20.

----------


## tizzle

> Does that mean that "no preclinicals were done on men" or "no, preclinicals were indeed done on men" ? very ambiguous wording


 Preclinical trial was done on men

----------


## eqvist

Can anyone tell us If fas II also was done on men ?

----------


## tizzle

Enrollment of *56 patients with male pattern hair loss* in the Phase I/II clinical trial of HSC has been completed, and the trial is ongoing. Dr. Gail Naughton, Histogen CEO and Chairman of the Board, presented the 12 week primary safety and efficacy data at the Society for Investigative Dermatology (SID) Annual Meeting on May 11, 2012.

Sounds like most of the patients were men (http://www.histogen.com/applications/hsc.htm)

----------


## 25 going on 65

A little off topic, but technically NW1 is the juvenile hairline, i.e. no hair loss.
"NW0" I guess would be lowering your juvenile hairline beyond where it once was.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Like that one stand up comedian who wants his hairline connected to his eyebrows.

----------


## eqvist

> Enrollment of *56 patients with male pattern hair loss* in the Phase I/II clinical trial of HSC has been completed, and the trial is ongoing. Dr. Gail Naughton, Histogen CEO and Chairman of the Board, presented the 12 week primary safety and efficacy data at the Society for Investigative Dermatology (SID) Annual Meeting on May 11, 2012.
> 
> Sounds like most of the patients were men (http://www.histogen.com/applications/hsc.htm)


 Thanks!! This update Is the best we hade In a looong time and It´s easy to be worried that It isn't  this good. I know It´s miles to hit the streets but hey guys u can´t say this don´t looks amazing!?

----------


## Pate

Some observations:

- The Phase I/II was ENTIRELY on men. It says this clearly in the bottom right box "Methods". 

- The women are from Ziering's IND trial, and there were ONLY FOUR WOMEN in his trial. So two of those women are shown there - at least 50% had cosmetically significant results. We don't know how the other two went, but they could have been good too.

- The Trichoscan photos are apparently from the men in the Phase I/II.

- I think this may be a STRONG indication that the treatments are indeed compoundable, at least for the first repeat injections. "Results indicate improved efficacy with additional injections."

- S1016 is the most interesting to me because he started with only maybe 40% (at a guess) terminal hair remaining, and ended with about 70%. If this could be repeated on a large scale it could be effectively full coverage for him - AT JUST 3 MONTHS! If he gets better at 12 months (as seems likely) this would have to be considered an effective treatment.

- I am kind of worried that the only results they are posting are those with a significant amount of terminal hair left. Would be interested to see results in someone who has 90% miniaturisation (which is about what I have in my NW 5 zone).

- Total increase in hair count is still only small. 7% in the Pilot study, about 10% in Phase I/II. Further reinforces that HSC is probably best for thickening hair rather than growing new hair. 

Conclusion: Fantastic result, but hang on to every hair you can. I am losing confidence that this will work on slick bald scalp at all, and its effectiveness will probably fall off rapidly the greater the degree of miniaturisation.

----------


## Pate

> THE ONLY problem I have with this:
> 
> why so many injections?  Couldn't they just up the dose? It's great that it works but it would take 1000+ injections to boost every single spot on your head


 Because the growth factors have very limited mobility in the scalp skin. One of them in particular - I forget whether it's a wnt or follistatin, but one of them basically doesn't diffuse into the scalp. So a higher dose does nothing to spread the HSC around, it just means you have a higher dose within 2mm of the injection site. 

It won't be any different from getting a tattoo. A tattoo is thousands of little injections, injecting a liquid into your skin. This will be exactly the same. It may hurt a bit, but I don't think you'll be caring if it grows your hair back.

----------


## worried

i hope they launch their product as soon as possible

----------


## BoSox

my hair is too thin, by the time HSC comes it won't reverse my hair loss.


I'm ****ed.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> my hair is too thin, by the time HSC comes it won't reverse my hair loss.
> 
> 
> I'm ****ed.


 arent you on fin?

----------


## BoSox

Yes, i've been on it for 5 years now, seems like my hair loss is getting more aggressive.. and i'm worried.

----------


## jpm

> Yes, i've been on it for 5 years now, seems like my hair loss is getting more aggressive.. and i'm worried.


 If you've had no problems with fin, then maybe dut could be an option?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Yes, i've been on it for 5 years now, seems like my hair loss is getting more aggressive.. and i'm worried.


 How old are you?

----------


## the_dude78

I just heard about Histogen now and I must say it sounds very promising. Is it realistic to hope for this to be on the market within 5 years time? And is it a one time injection or does it have to be repeated regularly?

----------


## BoSox

> How old are you?


 27, I'm thinking about getting on Dut

Do you guys think I will benefit from HSC, or is my current hair loss situation to advanced for repair?

----------


## Pate

> Do you guys think I will benefit from HSC, or is my current hair loss situation to advanced for repair?


 I think you've got a good chance with HSC from the pic you posted. Your hair is quite a bit thicker on top than mine and you've still got hair at your hairline.

And I don't think I'm a lost cause for HSC yet (my hairline probably is though). We just don't have enough info yet on how it'll work on more advanced miniaturisation. It may be that it still works but needs more injections, or higher concentrations, or takes longer to respond.

Just hang on to what you've got as much as possible. If gmonasco's interpretation is right then we higher Norwoods will need all the help we can get.

----------


## jpm

I think that as long as you haven't been slick bald for years then its going to help you.

As for hair - some people have had results using Minoxidil on their hairline, so if this is only Minoxidil 'on steroids' then it maybe to help at the hairline. That near invisible peach fuzz could turn terminal!

I'm taking no chances, gonna stay on fin to maintain until its released

----------


## inkt2002

Will Histogen show results where a transplant has been done?

----------


## BoSox

I found this Q&A on another forum, it might awsner a few questions you guys have. Turns out HSC will work on all forms of hair loss, and transplanted areas.
_________________


Dr Craig L. Ziering (Histogen’s principal clinical investigator) answered to some questions from users on the ************* forum back in February:


Q. Do you think a person who’s approaching a Norwood 5 or 6 can be helped with Histogen?

A. It has the potential to treat all stages of hairloss.
http://www.*************.com/showpost.p ... stcount=25


Q. Will having a hair transplant now will interfere with having Histogen injections in the future?

A. No , having a transplant now will not prevent you from receiving HSC injections in the future. The great thing is that HSC works on the recipient area and has nothing to do with the donor at this time . This should give new hope to all those that have poor or no donor hair available.
http://www.*************.com/showpost.p ... stcount=15


Q. Aside from Singapore I haven`t heard of any other countries in Asia taking part in the trials. Which, if any, other countries are going to take part in the trials? Thanks.

A. Right now Singapore but possibly Korea as well. 
http://www.*************.com/showpost.p ... stcount=16


Q. I got an email from gail naugton last month saying "We are starting phase 1/2 in Singapore before the end of May and hope to have phase 3 pan-Asian data by Sept 2012 for an NDA submission and 2013 approval. (hopefull Q2 2013)."

Is it possible that the NDA submissions could be shortened? Does it have to be 6-12 months long?

Is it possible to lobby the Singapore Health Authority to shorten it?

A. Sorry , but I dont see this time frame being shortened.
http://www.*************.com/showpost.p ... stcount=27


Q. Are the new hairs from the HSC injections colored hair, for a person with greying hair?

For example if a person has white hair (ie anderson cooper) will the new grown hairs from HSC injections be white or black?

A. The hair would likely take on its original darker color.
http://www.*************.com/showpost.p ... stcount=30


Q. 1. It has not become clear to me what exactly are the results 2 years after one single injection. I can see pictures on the Histogen website which show the hair growth after 12 weeks, 5 month and 12 month. As i can see in the statistics below the the pictures, after 12 month there is still new and thicker hair growing. Now after 2 years, is there still an increase in numbers of hair and hair thickness? I mean compared to the 1 year update, are there now more and thicker Hairs? Or were the 1 year results just lasting for one more year?

2. Will there be an update on the Histogen website which shows macrophotos and statistics regarding the 2 year results?

A. The Histogen study was originally a safety study with 12 mos follow up, with efficacy as a secondary endpoint. The Company was able to modify the clinical protocol to add a two year safety endpoint but couldn't perform the full efficacy study. Photos were taken of the treatment site which indicate persistence of hair at the treatment site but an accurate hair number and thickness assessment can not be done. The scientists at Histogen believe that the new hairs seen at 1 year are a result of stimulating stem cells in the scalp and in existing normal and miniaturizing follicles to grow new hairs. There is no reason to believe that additional hairs would be stimulated after one year with only one injection at baseline. That being said, the fact that new hairs continue to grow over the one year period is quite remarkable and unprecedented in the hair growth field.

Histogen is performing exploratory case studies in Asia where patients are receiving 50+ injections at base line to assess hair growth over time. The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.
http://www.*************.com/showpost.p ... stcount=70

date Feb 2011
_________

----------


## 2020

OF COURSE it will work at all stages of hair loss! Why would it matter? 
The only reason why they're not yet testing it on a bald scalp is because they know that the results would be minimal with one injection so they won't even bother "wasting" subjects just for that..... 
if it grew 50 new hairs on a bald scalp, you can't really show that to your investors and say "hey look at that growth! can I have $20 million for my next phase?" So that's why they're currently targeting "hairy" areas because that's what makes their charts and graphs look good  :Cool:

----------


## BoSox

2020, in your opinion, will it be able to regrow a full head of hair on a bald scalp? (Obviously with more injections )

----------


## 2020

> 2020, in your opinion, will it be able to regrow a full head of hair on a bald scalp? (Obviously with more injections )


 YES!

Doesn't anyone remember this study?
http://www.livescience.com/10394-mal...tem-cells.html




> But the new study shows that *bald people have the same number of stem cells as those with hair*. So if scientists could coax the stem cells into producing more hair follicle progenitor cells, then it would be possible to generate bigger hair follicles that could grow hair, he said.


 those scientists are Histogen and they're doing just that

----------


## Davey Jones

> YES!
> 
> Doesn't anyone remember this study?
> http://www.livescience.com/10394-mal...tem-cells.html
> 
> 
> those scientists are Histogen and they're doing just that


 This is great to see. Hopefully it pans out like that. I missed you that time you were gone, 2020.

Knowledgeable, positive, but realistic. You're an endangered species, I think.

----------


## Maradona

that study is bullshit. Yes the stem cells may be there, but there are more structures that have been ravaged by MPB. Histogen won't bring all of them back.

It's better to stick with "keep as many follicles in shape as you can" than "just go slick bald the stem cells are still there so you will benefit too".

----------


## Tracy C

> that study is BS.


 I'm sorry but you are just not paying attention...  I don't know why so many of you insist that none of these future treatments will be able to help a slick bald scalp.  None of you actually know that.  None of you actually know anything at all - yet ya'll insist on perpetuating this nonsense.  This is completely non-productive and yes it is nonsense.  Until it has been shown in legitimate studies, it is nonsense.  Ya'll are doing far more harm than good when you speculate in such a negative way.  Sure it will likely take longer - but that does not mean they won't be able to do it.  Time will tell - not speculation.  Hold your horses until the real data about this is known.

----------


## Maradona

> I'm sorry but you are just not paying attention...  I don't know why so many of you insist that none of these future treatments will be able to help a slick bald scalp.  None of you actually know that.  None of you actually know anything at all - yet ya'll insist on perpetuating this nonsense.  This is completely non-productive and yes it is nonsense.  Until it has been shown in legitimate studies, it is nonsense.  Ya'll are doing far more harm than good when you speculate in such a negative way.  Sure it will likely take longer - but that does not mean they won't be able to do it.  Time will tell - not speculation.  Hold your horses until the real data about this is known.


 No, he's doing more harm telling people just let you MPB progress when you're slick bald you can benefit too. what if they don't? 

All these clinical trials have always been on moderate-early stage pattern baldness. Not a single one has shown or done results on slick bald areas, except aderans who's struggling to get anything else other than microscopic hair.

Many scientists in the past have experimented with replicel's aderan's and intercytex techniques. Intercytex and gho did use the same  method as aderans/replicel and they FAILED because the results were not consistent, meaning that once the follicle has been affected for more than 5 years, it's done, no way to bring it back with HM.

Yes you can reactive the stem cells and bring all your hair back but that will happen most likely in 100 years.

*It's better to be safe than sorry that's all I'm saying.
*

So for all with no treatment and if you wanna benefit from these ones coming up:

So just try to keep your follicles in shape, don't go slick bald. Don't take no chance, google, find the papers, research and then make your conclusions.

Don't believe internet trolls "just go slick bald, you can get the same hair since you were 18 years old with your stem cells".

----------


## Davey Jones

> that study is bullshit. Yes the stem cells may be there, but there are more structures that have been ravaged by MPB. Histogen won't bring all of them back.
> 
> It's better to stick with "keep as many follicles in shape as you can" than "just go slick bald the stem cells are still there so you will benefit too".


 Stem cells are the precursor responsible for creating the structures that may have been damaged. That's sort of what stem cells ARE, man.

But on a side note, what structures are damaged, and what does "damaged" mean in that context? I've been trying to find info on that, but haven't been so luckt.

----------


## Maradona

> Stem cells are the precursor responsible for creating the structures that may have been damaged. That's sort of what stem cells ARE, man.
> 
> But on a side note, what structures are damaged, and what does "damaged" mean in that context? I've been trying to find info on that, but haven't been so luckt.


 and who the hell called and discovered them "stem cells" and did he have any results bringing these follicles back from these 'stem cells' in MPB affected individuals. You can piss on a rat and it's hair will grow back, it's a different game in MPB. Stem cells is a term coined by a troll named Cotsarelis.

It's only one paper and one guy saying this, there are 1000s of others, read them all.

Just trying to save your ass, research more and don't believe me or any other troll. Make your own conclusions friend.

----------


## BoSox

I hope this is released in 2013. I've been following Histogen since 2008, and it gave me so much joy knowing my hair loss might be fixed.. now that my thinning is getting worse, I might not be able to reach that goal  :Frown: 


grrrr, please hurry HSC!

sorry, just venting.

----------


## Davey Jones

> and who the hell called and discovered them "stem cells" and did he have any results bringing these follicles back from these 'stem cells' in MPB affected individuals. You can piss on a rat and it's hair will grow back, it's a different game in MPB. Stem cells is a term coined by a troll named Cotsarelis.
> 
> It's only one paper and one guy saying this, there are 1000s of others, read them all.
> 
> Just trying to save your ass, research more and don't believe me or any other troll. Make your own conclusions friend.


 Uhh, the term was coined at the turn of the last century in Russia, dude. It was used to describe theoretical cells (now well established to exist) that are resposible for cellulargenesis in multicellular organisms.

What in god's name are you even talking about?

----------


## Sogeking

Man this forum is full of overwhleming optimists and total pessimists.

The world does not work in black and white. The same is with treatments.
Replicels trials were a failure. But does that mean their treatment doesn't work? Their treatment works. They did grow new hair, it's just that their treatment is really inefficient. If I remember correctly it was just around 3&#37;. 
The percentages are ofcourse relative. It depends on how much hair the participants had before the trial started.

The same is with the trials in question.
I think that this new Histogen results are promising. I also believe to some degree they are on their way of becoming new best treatment for hair loss out there. But I still don't think it will be a very effective treatment. 

Still give me what I can get. This might for example reawaken 10% or 20% of my hair but it is still better than not regrowing anything at all. 

If there is a gun fight I would rather go there with a knife than bare-handed.

----------


## Maradona

> Uhh, the term was coined at the turn of the last century in Russia, dude. It was used to describe theoretical cells (now well established to exist) that are resposible for cellulargenesis in multicellular organisms.
> 
> What in god's name are you even talking about?


 Wow you assume we are talking about general stem cells in this forum!!

We are talking about progenitor cells and stem cells in the scalp. Both terms introduced by this troll cotsarellis in the world of BALDNESS.

This site is called BALD truth as in male pattern BALDness.

Yes stem cells are present in the bald scalp but this is not (at least as of 2012) enough to bring your follicles back. This so called  "stem cells" and "progenitor cells", the latter also coined by this troll and there is a difference in this amount in mpb and non-mpb areas, haven't produced any good results EVEN IN THINNING AREAS.  The procedure of HM and taking advantage of stem cells as many talk about here has been donde since the 90s. Results have been ALL the same.

Replicel disagreed with some of cotsarelis findings hence they put forward their trials and research. All these companies disagree with each other and Histogen also disagreed with Cotsarelis (the father of "stem cells are present in the bald scalp" paper) in other areas of research.

Histogen is NOT relying on cotsarelis findings of "stem cells" present in the scalp. It is simply using growth factors to stimulate hair growth in areas where the structures of the hair is still there.

You can't just throw "oh this should work on bald scalps according to cotsarelis findings" so "i'm good i'll let my MPB" progress after knowing what i wrote above and there is MORE.

Just go slick bald if you want, when histogen or CB come to market don't complain we didn't warned you.

----------


## Davey Jones

> Wow you assume we are talking about general stem cells in this forum!!
> 
> We are talking about progenitor cells and stem cells in the scalp. Both terms introduced by this troll cotsarellis in the world of BALDNESS.
> 
> This site is called BALD truth as in male pattern BALDness.
> 
> Yes stem cells are present in the bald scalp but this is not (at least as of 2012) enough to bring your follicles back. This so called  "stem cells" and "progenitor cells", the latter also coined by this troll and there is a difference in this amount in mpb and non-mpb areas, haven't produced any good results EVEN IN THINNING AREAS.  The procedure of HM and taking advantage of stem cells as many talk about here has been donde since the 90s. Results have been ALL the same.
> 
> Replicel disagreed with some of cotsarelis findings hence they put forward their trials and research. All these companies disagree with each other and Histogen also disagreed with Cotsarelis (the father of "stem cells are present in the bald scalp" paper) in other areas of research.
> ...


 Yes, there are different kinds of stem cells with different names. The difference comes from the variety of cell types that the stem cell can differentiate into. In adults, stem cells typically are partially differentiated, but that is fine. I don't want the stem cells in my scalp to turn into liver cells anyway, I want hair follicles. Whether that is possible for the stem cells in the skin of the scalp is certainly up for debate, or more appropriately, experimental inquiry.

I'm not sure where you're getting that these aren't stem cells. That is a well accepted scientific term for a particular variety of cells. What makes you think he decided to fraudulently misuse the term?

I will agree with you that we should maintain our hair as long as possible just in case, but no one implied not to do that. May I ask who you're arguing with?

I think you need to chill outa little. You certainly are trying to bring a dose of realism to the discussion, but the aggressive argumentativeness is unnecessary. If you have reason to believe that the word stem cells is being used fraudulently (despite it being a well known fact that the skin has many stem cells in general), you should state why you think that.

And if you just think these stem cells wouldn't have the capacity to differentiate into the cells necessary for hair structures, state the reasoning for that.

Most importantly, if you have some insight into the Histogen process that explains why stem cells are uninvolved regardless, why not explain further how it actually works? I am curious myself.

But why not do so without the d*ckishness. We're all p*ssed about hairloss, man. We're your equally unwilling team mates, not your enemy.

----------


## 2020

> All these clinical trials have always been on moderate-early stage pattern baldness. Not a single one has shown or done results on slick bald areas, except aderans who's struggling to get anything else other than microscopic hair.


 startup company A grows +10% hair on a bald scalp.
startup company B grows +80% more hair on a hairy scalp.

which one do you think looks more impressive and which one do you think will have an easier time getting more money from the investors?

----------


## BoSox

we need a new interview, a lot of important questions.

----------


## Maradona

> Yes, there are different kinds of stem cells with different names. The difference comes from the variety of cell types that the stem cell can differentiate into. In adults, stem cells typically are partially differentiated, but that is fine. I don't want the stem cells in my scalp to turn into liver cells anyway, I want hair follicles. Whether that is possible for the stem cells in the skin of the scalp is certainly up for debate, or more appropriately, experimental inquiry.
> 
> I'm not sure where you're getting that these aren't stem cells. That is a well accepted scientific term for a particular variety of cells. What makes you think he decided to fraudulently misuse the term?
> 
> I will agree with you that we should maintain our hair as long as possible just in case, but no one implied not to do that. May I ask who you're arguing with?
> 
> I think you need to chill outa little. You certainly are trying to bring a dose of realism to the discussion, but the aggressive argumentativeness is unnecessary. If you have reason to believe that the word stem cells is being used fraudulently (despite it being a well known fact that the skin has many stem cells in general), you should state why you think that.
> 
> And if you just think these stem cells wouldn't have the capacity to differentiate into the cells necessary for hair structures, state the reasoning for that.
> ...


 what dickness? did i ever insult you? no you just did. In fact, I am trying to help you and I am wasting time helping someone which i don't know. I just saw your post about being confident about "any treatment should work because I still got my stem cells", and I pictured you crying in 5 or 6 years so I told you to research by yourself so that you don't regret it. 


You're talking about biology 101, we all know that here. We've been obssesed with baldness for a long time, we are not scientist but we do know more than your average joe . The world of baldness is quite different, it doesn't work as you would expect in your textbooks. 

 There is simply very few people working on a cure relative to other problems. Most doctors don't know much either, even the ones who work on hair regeneration. You have doctor cole, the leader doctor in HT industry working on hair regeneration after Gho i believe, who was talking down on HISTOGEN like you wouldn't imagine even saying they are SNAKE OIL pictures.

If you want a broken down explanation on histogen either read or wait. I am having finals exams tomorrow and the following week but still i'm taking my time here to save your hair lol...then you call me a dick.

----------


## TrueGround

Maradona,

I just started frequenting this forum (but have been monitoring others for years) since all the buzz about the "big" future treatments has been become recently heavy.  Since getting caught up, I've begun to scan through older posts as well.  Every bit of "contribution" I've seen from you so far has been blatantly negative.  Call it being realistic, call it whatever you want.  But if you want to carry on the way you have been here, you might as well go start your own forum where all the chronic Negative Nancy's around here can all hang out and enjoy perceiving the glass as half empty - if that's what makes you guys feel good or is apparently the preferred means to vent.  Not trying to hate on you here or anything, it's just gotten to the point that I can't keep reading a particular individual consistently shell out negativity (intentioned or not) and not say something.  It gets insanely old, insanely fast.  :Mad: 

Obviously everybody needs to maintain a realistic mindset and set of expectations, in regards to these future treatments.  But at the same time, let people f*cking relish in good news if they want to!  Nobody can deny that these are truly exciting times in the realm of hair loss treatment.

For instance:

1.  I don't think anybody can justify calling Replicel "dead in the water" at this point.  Who knows what optimal dosing and allowing more proliferation time will yield.  Not to mention, what kind of DHT "shielding" effect the treatment might have on existing terminal hairs.  Hell, I really hate referring to mice studies, but they grew hair in freaking foot pads!  Replicel's treatment needs A LOT more fine tuning before we can draw conclusions.

2. Histogen = nothing but fantastic news so far, especially compared to pre-existing hair loss treatments.  It could very well demonstrate significant efficacy on "slick" bald scalps, or it may not - nobody can say yet.  

3. We're now currently aware of a seemingly paramount factor in hair loss, PGD2 up-regulation.  If that's the case, an expectation of a highly effective topical or internal treatment coming to market in the near future seems very plausible to me!

Combine all of the aforementioned treatments (if sensible) with a hair transplant, and ANYBODY with ANY degree of hair loss could be able to achieve drastically significant cosmetic results!

Lastly, I don't think anybody here (including 2020) ever recommended not giving a shit any more, dropping your current regimen and letting all your damn hair go because Histogen is the answer..

It's only common sense for all of us to get more serious than ever about maintaining/regrowing as much hair as possible, via whichever means the individual deems effective and safe.  The first of these future treatments to become available will (obviously?) be more effective, not to mention, less expensive with more hair before application of the given treatment!

Phew!  :Cool:

----------


## 2020

> we need a new interview, a lot of important questions.


 like what?

----------


## Maradona

> startup company A grows +10&#37; hair on a bald scalp.
> startup company B grows +80% more hair on a hairy scalp.
> 
> which one do you think looks more impressive and which one do you think will have an easier time getting more money from the investors?


 Both are impressive but unfortunately B will get all the money. That isn't much improvement in 10% if that's all they can get and most investors know that hardcore research will be required to go beyond that and even that will take a long time, they want money FAAAAAAAAAST. 

80% in thinning areas is a cure at least for them, so what millions of bald people will miss it but it will be a preventive measure .I'm sure i will miss it but at the end these companies don't care(MPB is not cancer). 

At the end it's all about money.

----------


## Maradona

> Maradona,
> 
> I just started frequenting this forum (but have been monitoring others for years) since all the buzz about the "big" future treatments has been become recently heavy.  Since getting caught up, I've begun to scan through older posts as well.  Every bit of "contribution" I've seen from you so far has been blatantly negative.  Call it being realistic, call it whatever you want.  But if you want to carry on the way you have been here, you might as well go start your own forum where all the chronic Negative Nancy's around here can all hang out and enjoy perceiving the glass as half empty - if that's what makes you guys feel good or is apparently the preferred means to vent.  Not trying to hate on you here or anything, it's just gotten to the point that I can't keep reading a particular individual consistently shell out negativity (intentioned or not) and not say something.  It gets insanely old, insanely fast. 
> 
> Obviously everybody needs to maintain a realistic mindset and set of expectations, in regards to these future treatments.  But at the same time, let people f*cking relish in good news if they want to!  Nobody can deny that these are truly exciting times in the realm of hair loss treatment.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> 1.  I don't think anybody can justify calling Replicel "dead in the water" at this point.  Who knows what optimal dosing and allowing more proliferation time will yield.  Not to mention, what kind of DHT "shielding" effect the treatment might have on existing terminal hairs.  Hell, I really hate referring to mice studies, but they grew hair in freaking foot pads!  Replicel's treatment needs A LOT more fine tuning before we can draw conclusions.
> ...


 Hey man i'm being positive. i am just saying that from my experience and in time you will realize too, these treatments are all for early-moderate stage pattern baldness.

Replicel is not dead, it's dead to me because I will have slick bald areas if it ever comes to market. These guys also lied to me, I asked them where they injected the stuff they told me the slick bald temples and they did  it in crown thinning areas and did not get even better than minoxidil. Replicel will benefit women and diffuse thinners in some way i am certainly sure of that, making their min hair DHT resistant.

I'll be back tomorrow.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Hey man i'm being positive. i am just saying that from my experience and in time you will realize too, these treatments are all for early-moderate stage pattern baldness.
> 
> Replicel is not dead, it's dead to me because I will have slick bald areas if it ever comes to market. These guys also lied to me, I asked them where they injected the stuff they told me the slick bald temples and they did  it in crown thinning areas and did not get even better than minoxidil. Replicel will benefit women and diffuse thinners in some way i am certainly sure of that, making their min hair DHT resistant.
> 
> I'll be back tomorrow.


 You are a NW2 and are in your mid twenties.
Has it ever occured to you that you may just be developing a mature hairline?

Which yes, is hairloss, but stays stable for decades before thinning/receeding further.
By which point you should be able to take advantage of future treatments.

Honestly, I feel sorry for guys with aggressive loss in their teens if anything.

----------


## 2020

I'm sure it will work for bald spots it's just that it would probably take a lot more injections to get the desired density.... It worked for women, why wouldn't it work for men?
If hair from a follicle is not visible, doesn't mean that the follicle is dead. In my opinion, follicles never really die.
You have MILLIONS of follicles all over your body so just because they're not producing hair at this moment, doesn't mean that it won't later in your life.... What makes you think hair follicles are any different?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I'm sure it will work for bald spots it's just that it would probably take a lot more injections to get the desired density.... It worked for women, why wouldn't it work for men?
> If hair from a follicle is not visible, doesn't mean that the follicle is dead. In my opinion, follicles never really die.
> You have MILLIONS of follicles all over your body so just because they're not producing hair at this moment, doesn't mean that it won't later in your life.... What makes you think hair follicles are any different?


 2020 the honest truth is NOBODY KNOWS.

I'm sure histogen has thought about this shit. If they are smart enough to grow hair, then why doubt their expertise?

People are getting dramatic on here, because they are desperate.

----------


## 25 going on 65

> I'm sure it will work for bald spots it's just that it would probably take a lot more injections to get the desired density.... It worked for women, why wouldn't it work for men?


 I don't think they've shown that it works on slick bald areas for anyone, man or woman.
I'm not saying it can't work, just that they haven't shown us they can do it yet.

----------


## 2020

> 2020 the honest truth is NOBODY KNOWS.


 right, but I think it makes no sense to assume that DHT is actually there to destroy your hair follicles.... nothing is getting destroyed. Your follicles simply shrunk to a vellus state just like a million of other follicles on your body

----------


## Davey Jones

> If you want a broken down explanation on histogen either read or wait. I am having finals exams tomorrow and the following week but still i'm taking my time here to save your hair lol...then you call me a dick.


 Yeah, I'm gonna pass on the explanation. I think I've got a handle on all you're gonna say. Good luck on your exams, though!

----------


## Tracy C

> *It's better to be safe than sorry that's all I'm saying.*


 You are saying a lot more than that - and you are reading more into what others are saying than they are actually saying.  Next thing you know you will claim I said it's better to let it go slick bald - which would be a complete lie.  There is no way I would ever say that.

----------


## Tracy C

> The same is with treatments. Replicels trials were a failure.


 Replicel's treatment has not failed.  It is completely wrong and completely unethical to keep saying they did.

----------


## john2399

> Replicel's treatment has not failed.  It is completely wrong and completely unethical to keep saying they did.


 Tracy what do you think about the histogen results? seems promising ?

----------


## Tracy C

> Tracy what do you think about the histogen results?


 I think both Histogen and Replicel are on two different paths to a better solution - both correct paths.  Though Histogen's treatment won't be a true cure, I do believe it will be a significantly better treatment than those currently available.  Replicel is on the way to a true cure though.  I can easily envision these two treatments being used together to achieve both the goals of restoring a full head of hair (Histogen) and preventing future hair loss (Replicel).  Time will tell.

----------


## 534623

> I think both Histogen and Replicel are on two different paths to a better solution - both correct paths.  Though Histogen's treatment won't be a true cure, I do believe it will be a significantly better treatment than those currently available.  Replicel is on the way to a true cure though.  I can easily envision these two treatments being used together to achieve both the goals of restoring a full head of hair (Histogen) and preventing future hair loss (Replicel).  Time will tell.


 if only time can tell, why do you tell so much crap now?

----------


## 25 going on 65

> if only time can tell, why do you tell so much crap now?


 Someone asked for her opinion.

Jesus dude.

----------


## JJJJrS

> I think both Histogen and Replicel are on two different paths to a better solution - both correct paths.  Though Histogen's treatment won't be a true cure, I do believe it will be a significantly better treatment than those currently available.  *Replicel is on the way to a true cure though.*  I can easily envision these two treatments being used together to achieve both the goals of restoring a full head of hair (Histogen) and preventing future hair loss (Replicel).  Time will tell.


  :Confused:  How can you make a conclusion like that? It definitely can't be based on the negligible results they published. Are you a hair science expert by any chance? Maybe you're aware of the inner workings in these companies and the complete science behind their treatments? Very, very few people are you know and if you're one of those, you should probably be helping them find a cure.

Anyway, some interesting results published by Histogen. It's nice to see pictures which show substantial hair regrowth for once. The part about it being compoundable is also very promising.

Nevertheless, we've also seen comparable pictures for known snake oils. So until I see more pictures like these for balding men, I won't get too optimistic. Definitely warrants another interview and renewed attention however.

----------


## Tracy C

> How can you make a conclusion like that?


 Did you read the post above yours?

Yes, I do undertand the science involved a little more than the average person.  Another person asked for my opinion and I gave it.  I am entitled to have an opinion - and I am entitled to give that opinion if someone asks for it, even if it isn't popular think positive around here.

----------


## DallasTreado

> Did you read the post above yours?
> 
> Yes, I do undertand the science involved a little more than the average person.  Another person asked for my opinion and I gave it.  I am entitled to have an opinion - and I am entitled to give that opinion if someone asks for it, even if it isn't popular think positive around here.


 Don't be discouraged by these negative posts. A lot of people on this forum appreciate what you have to say. Please continue and thanks for all you do on this forum.

----------


## jgold

I hope that everyone is clear on the fact that when they state that there was a 50% or whatever it was increase from the baseline count at 3 months, that they don't mean a 50% increase of what a full head of hair is, they mean a 50% increase in the hair that was presently there. 

Thus, if one if these pictures from Histogen says it had a 60% increase in an area where there was only 20% of their original hair, that really the hsc only made them have an increase of around 10% from what their full head of hair would be. anyone following me here??? maybe im stupid and you all already know this....

----------


## doinmyheadin

So when will this be available in Asia?    :Smile:  It would help with the funding for next phase trials.
We need another interview Spencer...

Questions

Did HST work to some degree on all patients?
What were the norward scales of the male patients being treated and was it tested in slick bald areas? 
How are the 24 patients from the pilot study, is there hair continuing to grow and is DHT having any effect on the hair they have grown and there existing hair?
Has it been tested in areas of transplanted hair?
Release in Asia 2013  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Love your work Spencer

----------


## Nilli57211

> let's be a realistic here. this result was for women who have low DHT, mild and recent hair loss.
> 
> won't grow hair in bald scalps that have been bald for years.
> 
> By the time this comes out we will be a nw7. You need to maintain to get some results that may not even happen because we don't know the results on MAN.
> 
> I achieved this same result but had to drop minox because of sides.
> 
> In resume all this is: a minoxidil on steroids.
> ...


 First of all, how do you know the woman's hair loss was recent? Her hair could have miniaturized a decade ago and just stayed miniaturized. It happens a lot in women - they get stressed out and a bunch of hair falls out at 18 or so, but minoxidil still works on them at 30 because the follicles are still there. Don't know if it's the same in men, but it's the case in a lot of women - their thinning happens all at once and just stays as is, not getting any worse.

And there have been results in men, even more so in phase I/II than in the pilot study. Who knows, if Replicel can improve their results, maybe a combination of Histogen and Replicel can regrow hair in a bald scalp.

And this is much more than "minoxidil on steroids." Histogen and Minoxidil shouldn't even be used in the same sentence. Histogen actually turns miniaturized follicles back to terminal - minoxidil does no such thing. In fact, I'm inclined to believe that minoxidil doesn't actually do shit for your follicles - the only reason it makes your hair appear thicker is that it gets all the follicles on the same "schedule" so that they're all breaking the scalp surface at the same time, creating the appearance of more hair. And it may possibly lengthen the anagen phase. But i don't think it actually helps the follicles at all.

----------


## tizzle

> I hope that everyone is clear on the fact that when they state that there was a 50&#37; or whatever it was increase from the baseline count at 3 months, that they don't mean a 50% increase of what a full head of hair is, they mean a 50% increase in the hair that was presently there. 
> 
> Thus, if one if these pictures from Histogen says it had a 60% increase in an area where there was only 20% of their original hair, that really the hsc only made them have an increase of around 10% from what their full head of hair would be. anyone following me here??? maybe im stupid and you all already know this....


 I dont think thats exactly true. Im not 100% sure but the comparison between baseline and haircount after the treatment only puts the numbers into a relation between each other.

lets assume HSC revitalizes shrunken hair follicles :

1. Early stage of MPB where 50% of the follicles are out of business (Shrunk) and 50% are perfectly active
-->50% increase from baseline means you end up with 75% hair (of your original state before MPB) and therefore lets say HSC will have a succes rate of 50% on shrunken follicles (The other 50% lets say are gone period)

2. Progressed stage of MBP where only 20% of the follicles are still perfectly active
--> of the 80% inactive, HSC will "wake up" half of them (Ergo 40%) so in the end you will jump from 20% to 60% of your original state before MBP (in comparison to example 1 where you only jump from 50% to 75%.


This is all hypothetical. I just wanted to show that only because you compare trial results to haircount from baseline does not mean that if you are completely bald, that you will not get back some hair from HSC

It all depends on how HSC works exactly (We dont know), how it will effect shrunken follicles (We dont know) and if it does anything to follicles that so many here call "dead" (we dont know)

But i cant wait for further resuults. Histogen has done so extremely well, im sure they will even make HSC more effective than it is now in the next stages of the trials

----------


## jgold

your wrong because if hsc made 80% of the 20% of the hair you had in an area wake up, then only 30% total would be awake not the higher number that you suggested.

----------


## jgold

excuse me 35%

----------


## jgold

percentages their using are based on the amount of hair that they did have, not the amount of hair that they do not have

----------


## Pate

> So when will this be available in Asia?    It would help with the funding for next phase trials.
> We need another interview Spencer...
> 
> Questions
> 
> Did HST work to some degree on all patients?
> What were the norward scales of the male patients being treated and was it tested in slick bald areas? 
> How are the 24 patients from the pilot study, is there hair continuing to grow and is DHT having any effect on the hair they have grown and there existing hair?
> Has it been tested in areas of transplanted hair?
> ...


 We don't need an interview for those questions, we can answer them already.

1. No, it didn't. A few had no significant results, most had somewhere around the average, and a few had excellent results significantly better than average.

2. NW4-6, not tested in slick bald areas.

3. The pilot study did not evaluate hair growth at 24 months (only safety) but said "new hair appeared to persist." No evidence on how long HSC lasts before DHT reasserts itself.

4. No. Transplanted hair was an exclusion criterion for the trial so anybody who had a transplant couldn't be in the trial.

5. Seriously doubt it.  :Wink:

----------


## Pate

> --> of the 80% inactive, HSC will "wake up" half of them (Ergo 40%) so in the end you will jump from 20% to 60% of your original state before MBP (in comparison to example 1 where you only jump from 50% to 75%.


 But an increase from 20 to 60% of original hair would be a 200% increase in hair count. We haven't seen anything that high yet, but it could happen. 

jgold is right. A 50% increase in terminal hair if you only have 10% original terminal remaining is only 15% of original terminal hair. You would need a 400% increase to get back to 50% original terminal hair.

Given that we've seen these results from just two sets of injections, who knows what three or four, or more, sets might do?

----------


## Kiwi

> if only time can tell, why do you tell so much crap now?


 Shut up douche bag. 

LOVE YOUR WORK TRACY  :Big Grin:

----------


## BoSox

I hope Histogen can regrow hair on my temples, as of now I would need a lot of grafts to fix my hairline. So depressed right now.

----------


## tizzle

> But an increase from 20 to 60&#37; of original hair would be a 200% increase in hair count. We haven't seen anything that high yet, but it could happen.


 You are absolutely right. But what i wanted to point out is that many people are concerned, that the trial was done on men with thinning hair and not on bald guys. And that is has no effect on bald guys because of the results being compared to baseline in %.

Say the thinning guys in the trial have 100 follicles in the target area and 50 are sleeping, hsc can only wake up the 50 sleeping follicles because the others are allready growing hair.

With a bald guy you have 100 of 100 sleeping so HSC has more to work with. And since no bald guys were in the trial we cant tell if the 200% increase you mentioned wouldnt have happened. 

It could, we simply dont know until they test in on a bald guy

----------


## tizzle

> I hope Histogen can regrow hair on my temples, as of now I would need a lot of grafts to fix my hairline. So depressed right now.


 I feel you man, my mpb started 1.5 years ago when i was 23 and its pretty agressive. Im thinning from hair line to the crown at the same fast rate, hair line is receeding simultaniously  :Frown: 

I dont think i will last till hsc hits the market (i hope Fin does its job, cant tell yet), but i would rather safe the HT money for when it does

Edit: But i have to say that Histogens results improved my MPB depression massively. Now we know they are  on the right track to cure this shitty "disease"

----------


## Sogeking

@TracyC
You took one of my sentences out of context and indirectly portrayed me as a negative nancy.
What I said was that Replicel was a failure from a viewpoint of an end user trying to grow visibly and cosmetically sufficent amount of hair. Which is the only one that matters. I believe dr. Cole said it as it is in the interview thread with David Hall about the trial results. Basically they haven't provided any pictures about any form of cosmetical improvement concerning their treatment.

Replicel wasn't a failure from a viewpoint of growing new hair with DSC cells. They actually succeded. However that doesn't mean much to balding man and women out there.
But hey if you wanna' believe 'em you do that.  :Wink:

----------


## Losing_It

So much speculation on this thread now. It is exciting that they are making strides. At least we can look forward to perhaps a 6 month update and after that the 1 year update. It is unfair to compare HSC to Minox because you lose all the hair that you gained after you stop using it. Also, you need to apply it twice a day for the rest of your life. 

We also need to remember that this was only a poster presentation. I see people on other forums are complaining about the pictures of the women and the men only had macros. I am not certain what people expect, these photos are from a clinical trial and need to show accurate haircount. Showing us a picture of a man growing hair won't do any good because I don't think that is what the regulators want.

----------


## 2020

> 4. No. Transplanted hair was an exclusion criterion for the trial so anybody who had a transplant couldn't be in the trial.


 probably because it does permanent damage. Even Replicel mentions this:




> In addition, *hair transplantation surgery inflicts considerable scalp tissue damage*, while our procedure generates virtually no tissue damage.


 The worst possible thing you can do right now, is get a hair transplant...

----------


## Nilli57211

For what it's worth, Replicel just released positive news. Apparently their results are better than they originally thought.

http://www.replicel.com/further-anal...linical-trial/ 

I'll be honest, it seems a little fishy to me. I don't know if this is for real, or if they just skewed some data to ameliorate the public's opinion of them, but it could be legit. It's great news if it is.

Also, wanted to point out one thing. The photos of the woman on the Histogen poster that everyone has been talking about - she really appears to have MPB. It's less common, but it happens - women can have male pattern baldness (receding hairline and bald areas), while men can lose hair in the female pattern (overall thinning). This woman has a receding hairline, and the product still worked very well in the temple area. This should be a promising sign to all, I think.

----------


## Tracy C

> I'll be honest, it seems a little fishy to me. I don't know if this is for real, or if they just skewed some data to ameliorate the public's opinion of them, but it could be legit. It's great news if it is.


 To be honest, these results are closer to what I was expecting.  Though I did think more than seven study participants would have results like this.  It is still a good sign that they are on the right track though.  I am looking forward to the 12 month results.






> Also, wanted to point out one thing. The photos of the woman on the Histogen poster that everyone has been talking about - she really appears to have MPB. It's less common, but it happens...


 For the sake of clarity, yes it is possible.  However many women can develop this hair line by frequently wearing their hair pulled back tight, which can cause traction alopecia in the hair line.

----------


## Tracy C

> I hope Histogen can regrow hair on my temples, as of now I would need a lot of grafts to fix my hairline. So depressed right now.


 I have said it before and I will say it again.  I have seen your hair, including your hair line, and you look fine.

----------


## Tracy C

> You took one of my sentences out of context and indirectly portrayed me as a negative nancy.


 Actually, no I didn't.  This post you made here is further evidence of your negative attitude and lack of understanding on the matter.

----------


## Nilli57211

Replicel's results make sense considering what David Hall was saying in his interview. I guess they wanted to present the same results in a more positive light - they must know that everyone is basically calling their trial a failure. Almost half of the participants got above 10% though, which isn't bad. Hopefully it improves at the one year mark.

As for traction alopecia, I don't know that I really buy that. I don't think pulling your hair back tight would cause your hairline to recede noticeably. It may cause more hair to fall out overall, but not more so at the temples than further back. Also "traction alopecia" seems to be a typical suggestion to women who are losing their hair when really it is AGA. People tell women that less stress, tying their hair loosely, better diet, et cetera will make their hair grow back, but in the end it doesn't really have to do with any of those things, it's just AGA. I've seen many women who tie their hair back tightly and still have all their hair.

Even in cases of actual traction alopecia, there is either scarring or new terminal hair growing in. And there would be a general pulling back of the hairline, not preferentially at the temples, looking exactly like MPB. I'm sure the scientists did a more close up examination to see if her follicles were miniaturized or not, to see if their treatment was actually doing anything or whether she was just regrowing her own lost hair.

----------


## BoSox

I have a receded hairline, that's not "fine" in my book. Regardless of what others think, I want it repaired.. by 2015 it will be even further back.

Please hurry, Histogen. Please  :Smile:

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> For what it's worth, Replicel just released positive news. Apparently their results are better than they originally thought.
> 
> http://www.replicel.com/further-anal...linical-trial/ 
> 
> I'll be honest, it seems a little fishy to me. I don't know if this is for real, or if they just skewed some data to ameliorate the public's opinion of them, but it could be legit. It's great news if it is.
> 
> Also, wanted to point out one thing. The photos of the woman on the Histogen poster that everyone has been talking about - she really appears to have MPB. It's less common, but it happens - women can have male pattern baldness (receding hairline and bald areas), while men can lose hair in the female pattern (overall thinning). This woman has a receding hairline, and the product still worked very well in the temple area. This should be a promising sign to all, I think.


 They need to release photos.

----------


## mohuk

> I have a receded hairline, that's not "fine" in my book. Regardless of what others think, I want it repaired.. by 2015 it will be even further back.
> 
> Please hurry, Histogen. Please


 2015 !! Dont put any hope b4 2020 ! 

to finalize all data for phaseII it will take them till end 2014 

then they will start phase III which will take another 2 years = 2016 

then commercializing it, which is the hardest part, will take another 2 years =2018 

then you will be able to use but it will take 24 months to see results

so technically, the earliest we can benefit from HSC is 2020 

and 2 years later for Replicel = 2022 

so it will be 2025 when we can say that MPB is finally cured 

2025 not 2015 !!

----------


## clandestine

> shit


 Go away, negative nancy.

----------


## john2399

> 2015 !! Dont put any hope b4 2020 ! 
> 
> to finalize all data for phaseII it will take them till end 2014 
> 
> then they will start phase III which will take another 2 years = 2016 
> 
> then commercializing it, which is the hardest part, will take another 2 years =2018 
> 
> then you will be able to use but it will take 24 months to see results
> ...


 lol dumbest post i ever seen. I will be gettin histogen in 2014 in asia and you can wait till 2025 till your cure.

----------


## clandestine

I say we push Spencer for an interview with Histogen. That's something I'd, as I'm sure others would as well, be interested in.

----------


## kaandereli

they are starting phase 3 in september 2012 in singapore , 2014 is a realistic date

----------


## mohuk

> lol dumbest post i ever seen. I will be gettin histogen in 2014 in asia and you can wait till 2025 till your cure.


 2014 hahahaahah, maybe you will get ur ass baldness cured by 2014 

definitely not MPB

----------


## Supersixx

Replicel CHECK...... Histogen : Your move

----------


## clandestine

> 2014 hahahaahah, maybe you will get ur ass baldness cured by 2014 
> 
> definitely not MPB


 I literally just told you to go away. Yet you persist. Hmm.

Maybe some bold font. Usually works! *Go away*.

----------


## john2399

> 2014 hahahaahah, maybe you will get ur ass baldness cured by 2014 
> 
> definitely not MPB


 Histogen aint a cure fool...its going to be a better treatment to get hair back. I will be getting majority of my hair back in 2014...you can suck a fat one.

----------


## Tracy C

> As for traction alopecia, I don't know that I really buy that.


 http://www.americanhairloss.org/wome..._hair_loss.asp

Scroll to the bottom.

----------


## WashedOut

Histogen + topical CB = best treatment for baldness the world has yet to see. The treatments are gonna get a lot better with time but those two above are way better than what's out now.

Low chance of sides, not systemic, low hassle/pain. Just hair saving.

----------


## Nilli57211

> 2015 !! Dont put any hope b4 2020 !


 Why do people keep saying things like this? This may be true for the US, but the process does not work like this in third world countries. The Histogen reps are saying 2014-2015, and that's probably about right, especially given their recent results.

Other countries don't have the FDA to slow things down and cause huge delays like that. The only reason Histogen was delayed as much as it was was that bloody lawsuit. Now they're back in full force and the wheels are in motion.

People should do their research before saying this kind of crap.

----------


## Nilli57211

> http://www.americanhairloss.org/wome..._hair_loss.asp
> 
> Scroll to the bottom.


 Yeah, I know about that, but I don't think it would pull someone's hairline so that it's receded more at the temples EXACTLY like MPB. Also, I'm sure the subjects would have needed to be diagnosed with AGA rather than any other kind of alopecia, to even be included in the study. I would also think that the Histogen scientists actually checked for miniaturization (rather than hair simply being pulled out) before making their injections.

----------


## Nilli57211

I think Replicel came up with this new release in an attempt to save face. They wanted to highlight the most positive part of their results rather than the dismal averages. They released results that disappointed everyone, and days later, Histogen releases great results. So Replicel just put out another press release to stay in the game. Histogen still blows them WAY out of the water though. 

The good news is, Replicel's approach, if they can really get it to work, should theoretically work on bald areas. So maybe there really is hope for everyone.

----------


## Kiwi

> I think Replicel came up with this new release in an attempt to save face. They wanted to highlight the most positive part of their results rather than the dismal averages. They released results that disappointed everyone, and days later, Histogen releases great results. So Replicel just put out another press release to stay in the game. Histogen still blows them WAY out of the water though. 
> 
> The good news is, Replicel's approach, if they can really get it to work, should theoretically work on bald areas. So maybe there really is hope for everyone.


 Where the **** did Histogen put out the press release - I've only seen one link to a PDF. Please help :P

----------


## Smiley

I keep hearing 2014 release in Asia. Is that even possible?

Cause if it is, 'One ticket to Asia, please!'

----------


## Tracy C

> Yeah, I know about that, but I don't think it would pull someone's hairline so that it's receded more at the temples EXACTLY like MPB.


 Now that I know what I am looking at, I have seen it.  Not a lot but too often for comfort.






> The good news is, Replicel's approach, if they can really get it to work, should theoretically work on bald areas. So maybe there really is hope for everyone.


 The news is better than most people think it is, even with the first news release - because most people are ingoring something that is very important.  If Replicel's treatment works as expected, it should immunize hair follicles from the damaging effects of DHT.  Thus preventing future hereditary hair loss permanently.  This means Replicel's treatment would be a true cure.  Histogen's treatment won't do that, therefore Histogen's treatment will not be a true cure.  However I can easily envision these two treatments being used together.

----------


## john2399

> Now that I know what I am looking at, I have seen it.  Not a lot but too often for comfort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The news is better than most people think it is, even with the first news release - because most people are ingoring something that is very important.  If Replicel's treatment works as expected, it should immunize hair follicles from the damaging effects of DHT.  Thus preventing future hereditary hair loss permanently.  This means Replicel's treatment would be a true cure.  Histogen's treatment won't do that, therefore Histogen's treatment will not be a true cure.  However I can easily envision these two treatments being used together.


 So histogen's treatment will help grow hair for us and replicel will prevent that hair and the hair you already have from fallen out again?

----------


## TrueGround

> So histogen's treatment will help grow hair for us and replicel will prevent that hair and the hair you already have from fallen out again?


 That is what she is is theorizing and what all of us are hoping for, yes.

Not to be rude or anything, but people need to quit asking questions that start with, "will (insert treatment) do this...?".  Nothing is conclusive yet, and NOBODY knows what the full potential of these future treatments are yet.

By the way Tracy, I've lately been hearing about Replicel's potential of immunizing healthy follicles from DHT influence.  Is that just just theorized or is there some kind of in vitro study that I missed?

----------


## doinmyheadin

> We don't need an interview for those questions, we can answer them already.
> 
> 1. No, it didn't. A few had no significant results, most had somewhere around the average, and a few had excellent results significantly better than average.
> 
> 2. NW4-6, not tested in slick bald areas.
> 
> 3. The pilot study did not evaluate hair growth at 24 months (only safety) but said "new hair appeared to persist." No evidence on how long HSC lasts before DHT reasserts itself.
> 
> 4. No. Transplanted hair was an exclusion criterion for the trial so anybody who had a transplant couldn't be in the trial.
> ...


 
1. Where did you get the info that said a few had no significant results? Can you direct me to that?
2. So people with thinning hair is there 100% chance that it will strengthen and reverse the miniaturization of those existing hairs even if it doesn't grow new hairs?
3. Do they have plans of trialing it in areas of transplanted hair?
4. We need pictures of males who were treated.
5. Bring on early release in Asia.

----------


## Pate

> 1. Where did you get the info that said a few had no significant results? Can you direct me to that?
> 2. So people with thinning hair is there 100% chance that it will strengthen and reverse the miniaturization of those existing hairs even if it doesn't grow new hairs?
> 3. Do they have plans of trialing it in areas of transplanted hair?
> 4. We need pictures of males who were treated.
> 5. Bring on early release in Asia.


 1. Take a look on their website, in the 'News' section, the bar chart that shows the distribution of responses at 3 months, dated July 27 2009. 3 out of 13 had no significant response.

That is only the 3 month result and I haven't seen a similar graph for 12 months, but from the difference between the best results, the mean, and the standard deviation, it is almost certain that some had no significant results at 12 months either. The mean is low and the standard deviation is high - that basically means the results were spread over a large range and some of them must have been near zero or even negative growth.

2. Probably not 100% chance but the trial so far showed around 90% positive growth at 3 months. The question is how cosmetically significant that will be. We just don't know but things are looking pretty good - those photos of the women were the first macroscopic photos we've seen and they both had a significant cosmetic effect even at 3 months.

3. Probably not in the trial phase because they need to evaluate how well it works without the influence of other hairs, scar tissue, etc. But they will try it eventually, I have no doubt. I am also interested to know how it works when combined with fin.

4. Those microscopic photos on the poster are of males. But yes, we need some new macroscopic photos. The only ones we have had so far showed no visible difference at 3 months. 

5. Everyone is hanging out for early release in Asia but I am very sceptical we will see it anywhere before 2015. If I am wrong though, I will be very happy.

----------


## Tracy C

> So histogen's treatment will help grow hair for us and replicel will prevent that hair and the hair you already have from fallen out again?


 Replicel's treatment should do both, grow hair back and immunize hair follicles from the damaging effects of DHT.  Histogen's treatment will grow hair back but it will not immunize hair follicles from DHT.  Histogen's treatment will not be a permanent solution, however it looks like Histogen's treatment is going to give cosmetic results much sooner.  Replicel's treatment should be permanent but so far it looks like it will take longer to get cosmetically significant results.  This why using them in combination makes sense - if everything works as expected.

These are very important details that the negative Nancy's in this forum are ignoring.  The Devil is in the details and the details do matter.






> By the way Tracy, I've lately been hearing about Replicel's potential of immunizing healthy follicles from DHT influence.  Is that just just theorized or is there some kind of in vitro study that I missed?


 Dr. Hoffmann said it in a few of the introduction videos concerning female hereditary hair loss.  I am not sure if he simply theorized this or if he was able to show it in vitro.  However it makes sense that the treatment could do that and probably will do that.

----------


## neversaynever

I am convinced Histogen will bring a product to the world that will remove minox, fin and others from the market.

In terms of shiney bald scalps out there, i think Dr Gho holds the key, but his patents are blocking progress in that department.

What worries me is how long they will take and how they plan to mass produce it.

If they plan to sell the technology to another company, it will delay things hugely. If they plan to find a partner to bring the treatment to the world, maybe it will be quicker.

But I think everyone has the right to be negative about replicel, histogen etc etc. Because after so many years of let downs, people want it NOW.

By the time they release it, I will probably have crawled too far up the norwood scale to make any real use of it. And all these &#37; figures are a bit misleading.

But for all you nw1-3 men, and most women...i really think histogen will be there for you.

----------


## Tracy C

> I am convinced Histogen will bring a product to the world that will remove minox, fin and others from the market.


 Histogen's treatment probably will knock Minoxidil off the market - but it will not knock Finasteride off the market - or remove the need for Spiro to treat women's hereditary hair loss.






> In terms of shiney bald scalps out there, i think Dr Gho holds the key...


 I cannot agree with that.

----------


## UK_

> i cannot agree with that.


 .....


Oh reli?

----------


## UK_

> I am convinced Histogen will bring a product to the world that will remove minox, fin and others from the market.
> 
> In terms of shiney bald scalps out there, i think Dr Gho holds the key, but his patents are blocking progress in that department.
> 
> What worries me is how long they will take and how they plan to mass produce it.
> 
> If they plan to sell the technology to another company, it will delay things hugely. If they plan to find a partner to bring the treatment to the world, maybe it will be quicker.
> 
> But I think everyone has the right to be negative about replicel, histogen etc etc. Because after so many years of let downs, people want it NOW.
> ...


 Are you a NW4?

----------


## UK_

Histogen will show all the naysayers - especially the ones on Hairsite ... "OH DR HOFFMAN USED A FAULTY IMAGING SOFTWARE" lmfao.... yeh - and did they also use "faulty imaging software" when they conducted the following study:

http://www.bna.bh/portal/en/news/461380

The naysayers will be shot to shit - cant wait for that day.

----------


## neversaynever

> Histogen's treatment probably will knock Minoxidil off the market - but it will not knock Finasteride off the market - or remove the need for Spiro to treat women's hereditary hair loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot agree with that.


 Whats the need for fin if HSC restores thin hairs into terminal?? Especially if HSC's price is reachable and results last 1-2-3-4-5 years. I really think if HSC goes well, fin is over.

As for Gho, there are a number of people on this and another forum who will visit him soon or have been. Proof is in the pudding. Question is, if that donor regrows terminal hairs and the receipient yield is good with terminal hairs.....will you accept that HST is for real?

----------


## neversaynever

> Are you a NW4?


 Im a diffuse nw4 vertex something something. If one rubs my head, it feels like a full head of head. So HSC right now would probably give me near enough a full head of hair.

Just hope my hair holds out until histogen release it (if, when, how). And more importantly, I hope histogen get good results with those tiny hairs that you can just about feel, but not see.

One potential use that noone is discussing is the use of HSC during a transplant procedure. Surely the yield would improve greatly?

Im done with forums for a month or so, good luck people. Lets hope more good news is on the way  :Wink:

----------


## JJJJrS

> I cannot agree with that.


 This is what frustrates me a bit on here. We have a possible treatment in Dr. Gho's HST that is available right now that could possibly create 2 hairs from 1 and people aren't trying to get to the bottom of it. We've seen a lot more compelling pictures from Gho than we ever have from Replicel for example. 

Obviously we would all prefer a treatment like Histogen and Replicel that you inject and grows back your original hair but this is years away at the moment. Of course we should keep an eye on them, but in the meantime there should be a lot more attention on Gho's work, precisely because we don't know exactly how well it works. How many people are getting regular transplants and missing out on a procedure that is potentially steps above. Or from the other perspective, how many people are going to Dr. Gho and potentially getting mislead on the claims of donor regeneration. Why don't more people want to get to the bottom of this?!  :Confused:

----------


## JJJJrS

> Im done with forums for a month or so, good luck people. Lets hope more good news is on the way


 Aren't you getting a procedure with Gho in a week? Please stick around and share your experiences and pictures  :Smile:

----------


## Tracy C

> .....
> 
> 
> Oh reli?


 Really.  I am a very hard sell.  I worked in a research environment for a very long time.  Too long to be easily convinced.  I know the difference between good evidence and not so good evidence when I see it.  I have been force fed a ton of shaky evidence about Gho.  None of it has been good evidence.






> Whats the need for fin if HSC restores thin hairs into terminal???


 Because Histogen's treatment will not be permenent.  Histogen's treatment will not immunize the hair follicles from the damaging effects of DHT.  Men will still need to take Finasteride and women will still need to take Spiro to keep the hair they have as well as the hair that grows back.

----------


## john2399

> Really.  I am a very hard sell.  I worked in a research environment for a very long time.  Too long to be easily convinced.  I know the difference between good evidence and not so good evidence when I see it.  I have been force fed a ton of shaky evidence about Gho.  None of it has been good evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because Histogen's treatment will not be permenent.  Histogen's treatment will not immunize the hair follicles from the damaging effects of DHT.  Men will still need to take Finasteride and women will still need to take Spiro to keep the hair they have as well as the hair that grows back.


 Didn't histogen say the hairs they grow back will last as when you lost your hair. Like if you went bald at 20 than it will last 20 years? So if the histogen treatment can work for 20 years that will give plenty of time for replicel to get something permanent.

----------


## jpm

> Didn't histogen say the hairs they grow back will last as when you lost your hair. Like if you went bald at 20 than it will last 20 years? So if the histogen treatment can work for 20 years that will give plenty of time for replicel to get something permanent.


 Well maybe not 20 years because from the age of 0-14 (puberty or whatever age that occurs) there was not dht attacking our hair follicles

----------


## 2020

> This is what frustrates me a bit on here. We have a possible treatment in Dr. Gho's HST that is available right now that could possibly create 2 hairs from 1 and people aren't trying to get to the bottom of it. We've seen a lot more compelling pictures from Gho than we ever have from Replicel for example.


 because it's dumb and it wouldn't work for 100% of women and 90% of men. Only those men with "perfect recessions" with no diffuse thinning could somewhat benefit from it....

why can't you wait for a real treatment? Histogen is almost here and this PGD2 stuff will be confirmed in the next couple months.

----------


## UK_

> Really.  I am a very hard sell.  I worked in a research environment for a very long time.  Too long to be easily convinced.  I know the difference between good evidence and not so good evidence when I see it.


 Ah well that's easy to explain, you're an idiot.  What did you research?  How to keep reception tidy?  

Question:  does the term "Gc83uk" ring any bells?

If not, you're in no place to comment on Gho's procedure - I dont get you - you're all "positivity police" for every treatment bar the HASCI treatment, which is probably the best chance we have in curing MPB.

Even the most skilled HT transplant surgeon in the world retracted his comments about Gho's procedure being "misleading" - maybe it's time you retracted yours too.

----------


## neversaynever

> because it's dumb and it wouldn't work for 100% of women and 90% of men. Only those men with "perfect recessions" with no diffuse thinning could somewhat benefit from it....
> 
> why can't you wait for a real treatment? Histogen is almost here and this PGD2 stuff will be confirmed in the next couple months.


 I mostly agree with your posts, but not this one.

Wait? Because I've got a life to live now....gho is here now, histogen are years away. There are new treatments being discussed every month. New topicals. New drugs on the horizon.

@ tracy - lack of evidence? Actually, I have seen more real life evidence from HASCI than Ive seen from histogen, replicel, follica, combined. But you trust their evidence more than Hasci.

Think about that. You are trusting a few macro photos (very very few) and some % figures as evidence. Replicel suddenly have improved figures, after what was perceived as a failure by most, and news spread quickly of histogens brilliant progress. Suspect? Not to you. I believe that is called BLIND FAITH. They haven't even released ANY photos as PROOF.

One guy on this forum have given evidence of regrowth in the donor and a good yield. You say 'thats only one' but its still one more real life example than all of the research groups combined (no mice do not count). There is more evidence that HASCI are for real. Unfortunately they are celebrities. A very well known HT doctor has written a letter of apology, stating that HASCI are doing exactly what they claim. There are scientific papers that NO OTHER doctors have bothered to disprove. The hasci approach HAS BEEN proven to be true by one other scientist, Jahoda I believe. The bigger question is does the donor and receipient generate terminal hairs. And there are 4 or 5 members of this and HS forum that will / have provide(d) photos. I am one of those....


In terms of HSC vs fin. Again, it depends on price. Whos to say that HSC is a once in a life time treatment. One could have it done every 2 or 3 years. Or maybe one treatment will be enough (i doubt that though). We will see...

No, its not a cure. No, it doesnt make you immune to baldness. But yes, it should be a repeatable treatment. I really don't see the need for fin to slow down baldness if HSC gets FAR better results and is repeatable.

I firmly believe histogen will change the industry before anyone else. We will see about replicel at the end of the year.

And yes, Gho should go out of his way to provide proof, but his story is a complicated one. hes a terrible business man. More research is being done, he's fully booked, and i sense while he is booked he doesnt care what a lady on some hairloss site has to say about him.

I think Histogen and Gho are the only two good bets at the moment. But there is a still a huge chance of course that histogens results are impressive because they choose patients who will provide them with a better % figure. Ie, people who still have plenty of hair. If half of their patients were slick bald their average % figures would not be so impressive.

As you like these numbers, I'll give you one now...

"_After some research I have come to the conclusion that there is a 92.4% +- 4.2% chance that Tracy is a hypocrite. I have a macro photo for her, if she wants to come see it_"

That will be my last ever post. People like you are so annoying.

----------


## JJJJrS

> because it's dumb and it wouldn't work for 100% of women and 90% of men. Only those men with "perfect recessions" with no diffuse thinning could somewhat benefit from it....


 I don't understand at all why Gho's HST treatment would work for only 10% of men and 0% of women. For the most part it's no different than a standard FUE hair transplant except with slightly different extraction and cultivation methods which result in the supposed donor regeneration and minimal scarring. 

If you're talking about diffuse thinning and shock loss, that can be negated with careful planning and the surgeon's skill. There are surgeons who can get reasonably high density in areas that aren't slick bald and of course, the hugely expanded donor supply that Gho claims to offer helps with that. 

In the end though, it is a hair transplant, so the final aesthetic result depends on the skill and artistry of the surgeon.





> why can't you wait for a real treatment? Histogen is almost here and this PGD2 stuff will be confirmed in the next couple months.


 We have no idea when these treatments will come out and exactly how effective they will be. If I knew for sure that Histogen would release a product in a few years that would regrow my hair to close to 50% of my original density then I would wait. But I've been waiting for a while now and I'm still young and would like to enjoy life. I don't want to delay things, wait for years, and then find out these treatments didn't make it, which is a very distinct possibility. 

That's why I'm interested in Gho's procedure. It's out there right now and sounds very interesting yet there still isn't a consensus on how well it works. Even if you're not interested in it, it's still worth investigating for all the people who are getting hair transplants. We should all be aware of what options we have out there now. Hopefully we find out more information about Histogen soon as well.

----------


## 2020

> Wait? Because I've got a life to live now....gho is here now, histogen are years away. There are new treatments being discussed every month. New topicals. New drugs on the horizon.


 Histogen's phase 2 will end in december. I assume Phase 3 will take a year too so with all that, Histogen will be completely finished at the end of 2013/early 2014. That's barely two years!

What norwood are you right now? It's not worth permanently damaging your scalp tissue especially if you know that a "cure" is almost here...

----------


## JJJJrS

> If not, you're in no place to comment on Gho's procedure - I dont get you - you're all "positivity police" for every treatment bar the HASCI treatment, which is probably the best chance we have in curing MPB.


 Doesn't make sense to me either.

I'm interested in Histogen as a future option but I'm also interested in what's out there now. We have a procedure out there now which claims to be generating 2 hairs from 1 with some pretty compelling pictures and we still don't have a consensus whether it truly works or not  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  And people like tracy are dismissive of it and don't show the least bit of interest in it. I can't understand that.




> I mostly agree with your posts, but not this one.
> 
> Wait? Because I've got a life to live now....gho is here now, histogen are years away. There are new treatments being discussed every month. New topicals. New drugs on the horizon.
> 
> @ tracy - lack of evidence? Actually, I have seen more real life evidence from HASCI than Ive seen from histogen, replicel, follica, combined. But you trust their evidence more than Hasci.
> 
> Think about that. You are trusting a few macro photos (very very few) and some % figures as evidence. Replicel suddenly have improved figures, after what was perceived as a failure by most, and news spread quickly of histogens brilliant progress. Suspect? Not to you. I believe that is called BLIND FAITH. They haven't even released ANY photos as PROOF.
> 
> One guy on this forum have given evidence of regrowth in the donor and a good yield. You say 'thats only one' but its still one more real life example than all of the research groups combined (no mice do not count). There is more evidence that HASCI are for real. Unfortunately they are celebrities. A very well known HT doctor has written a letter of apology, stating that HASCI are doing exactly what they claim. There are scientific papers that NO OTHER doctors have bothered to disprove. The hasci approach HAS BEEN proven to be true by one other scientist, Jahoda I believe. The bigger question is does the donor and receipient generate terminal hairs. And there are 4 or 5 members of this and HS forum that will / have provide(d) photos. I am one of those....
> ...


 Nice post neversaynever but please continue posting. I personally am really looking forward to reading about your upcoming procedure. The results you and damielmillo show will have a big effect on a lot of people, including myself. Your contribution to the hair loss forums and community will be huge so don't abandon us   :Wink:

----------


## Nilli57211

> Because Histogen's treatment will not be permenent.  Histogen's treatment will not immunize the hair follicles from the damaging effects of DHT.  Men will still need to take Finasteride and women will still need to take Spiro to keep the hair they have as well as the hair that grows back.


 Except it is very possible that Histogen's injections can be done every few years or so to maintain the hair, rather than continuing to destroy your system with that fin/spiro crap.

I refuse to put that crap in my system - always have, always will.

----------


## Maradona

> I don't understand at all why Gho's HST treatment would work for only 10&#37; of men and 0% of women. For the most part it's no different than a standard FUE hair transplant except with slightly different extraction and cultivation methods which result in the supposed donor regeneration and minimal scarring. 
> 
> If you're talking about diffuse thinning and shock loss, that can be negated with careful planning and the surgeon's skill. There are surgeons who can get reasonably high density in areas that aren't slick bald and of course, the hugely expanded donor supply that Gho claims to offer helps with that. 
> 
> In the end though, it is a hair transplant, so the final aesthetic result depends on the skill and artistry of the surgeon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Look man don't bring the gho bullshit from hairsite here. It's pointless you will not convinced these guys. They don't a squat about hair multiplication so they just keep guessing and guessing without reading anything, maybe they read the tittle of some papers lol.

I've read the papers of Ghos and it makes sense that it SHOULD work. Wait,  IT HAS TO WORK but i find it very difficult to do it in practice. 

Now there is a lot of evidence pointing that it works from recent patients and that Gho isn't lying about all his crazy "claims".

What i want to know is this: why doesn't Gho himself hire a 3rd party team or get involved with some clinics to test the efficacy and convince all the skeptics once and for all?

Why do you assholes keep bothering spencer with this Gho, there's not much spencer can do. It's up to Gho.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Look man don't bring the gho bullshit from hairsite here. It's pointless you will not convinced these guys. They don't a squat about hair multiplication so they just keep guessing and guessing without reading anything, maybe they read the tittle of some papers lol.
> 
> I've read the papers of Ghos and it makes sense that it SHOULD work. Wait,  IT HAS TO WORK but i find it very difficult to do it in practice. 
> 
> Now there is a lot of evidence pointing that it works from recent patients and that Gho isn't lying about all his crazy "claims".
> 
> What i want to know is this: why doesn't Gho himself hire a 3rd party team or get involved with some clinics to test the efficacy and convince all the skeptics once and for all?
> 
> Why do you assholes keep bothering spencer with this Gho, there's not much spencer can do. It's up to Gho.


 Why does gho need too? Has it occured to anyone that by people not taking on ghos technology, it allows him to monopolise the market?

Imagine if people like feller, rahal , cole adopt his tech. Gho would lose business, and won't be able to set the price like he is now  :Smile:

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> Why does gho need too? Has it occured to anyone that by people not taking on ghos technology, it allows him to monopolise the market?
> 
> Imagine if people like feller, rahal , cole adopt his tech. Gho would lose business, and won't be able to set the price like he is now


 Not if Gho had a piece of their business money wise.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Not if Gho had a piece of their business money wise.


 And who's to say that HT Drs would want to do that?

----------


## Kirby_

> Nice post neversaynever but please continue posting. I personally am really looking forward to reading about your upcoming procedure. The results you and damielmillo show will have a big effect on a lot of people, including myself. Your contribution to the hair loss forums and community will be huge so don't abandon us


 ^ This. Don't let the bully get to you, neversaynever!

----------


## Supersixx

Why do some  think that there is a cure out there that is available now but its some secret...........all current 'treatments' are snake oil..some better marketed than others, never seen results as advertised,truth is , nothing works, don't believe, look around! And nobody has the answer to when one will be available... It's like Jesus , some people think he's here, some people think he's coming soon, and some think he'll never come, and until then the church will continue to make its money. Truth is.....nobody knows!

----------


## 2020

> Why do some  think that there is a cure out there that is available now but its some secret...........all current 'treatments' are snake oil..some better marketed than others, never seen results as advertised,truth is , nothing works, don't believe, look around! And nobody has the answer to when one will be available... It's like Jesus , some people think he's here, some people think he's coming soon, and some think he'll never come, and until then the church will continue to make its money. Truth is.....nobody knows!

----------


## JJJJrS

> Why do you assholes keep bothering spencer with this Gho, there's not much spencer can do. It's up to Gho.


 What are you talking about? Who's bothering Spencer? We asked him to look into the procedure and he already said he contacted Gho and will hopefully set up an interview to discuss these issues with him. That's great and basically all we asked for. For now we're just waiting to see damielmillo and neversaynever's results. 





> What i want to know is this: why doesn't Gho himself hire a 3rd party team or get involved with some clinics to test the efficacy and convince all the skeptics once and for all?


 I don't know the answer to that. I wish Gho took more of an effort to prove his procedure but for whatever reason he hasn't. That was the whole reason I asked Spencer. Maybe during their next interview Gho and Spencer can set something like this up and at a later date reveal the results on Bald Truth. 

Anyway, this is the Histogen thread, so I don't want to go too off topic.

----------


## Supersixx

> 


 Lol. He looks higher than a giraffe's coochie !

----------


## Tracy C

> Ah well that's easy to explain, you're an idiot.


 Actually, no I am not.  Far from it.  Now you just lost any credibility you might have had.






> ...you're all "positivity police" for every treatment bar the HASCI treatment, which is probably the best chance we have in curing MPB.


 Even if that treatment were the real deal, it is not a cure - and can never truly be considered a cure.






> maybe it's time you retracted yours too.


 I am a very ethical person.  As such I cannot retract my opinion about it.






> @ tracy - lack of evidence? Actually, I have seen more real life evidence from HASCI than Ive seen from histogen, replicel, follica, combined.


 You have got to joking because you cannot possibly be serious.  I have been force fed a ton of shaky evidence on HASCI from all the other Gho cheerleaders.  The problem is none if it is good evidence.  Do you actually think I don't want this to be the real deal?  here is a news flash for you.  I do want it to be the real deal.  I wish it were the real deal - but I have not seen anything that suggests it actually is the real deal.  I understand why so many other doctors are not convinced either.






> ...all current 'treatments' are snake oil..some better marketed than others, never seen results as advertised,truth is , nothing works, don't believe, look around!


 That is not true.  I have benefited from the current treatments and so have many others.  Unfortunately nothing works for everyone and for some people nothing works at all.

----------


## 534623

> I have benefited from the current treatments and so have many others.


 is this the reason for still being here?

----------


## tizzle

> is this the reason for still being here?


 only because you would instantly delete your account here if you got your hair back doesnt mean that every one would. People here should be thankful for members like tracy who spend so much time an effort into researching and answering questions

----------


## UK Boy

Hello everyone

Just got a couple of Histogen related questions cos I'm trying not to come on here everyday anymore so I'm not always completely up to date.

1. A few days ago someone said that Spencer had said that Dr. Ziering had 'exciting news' in regards to Histogen. Was this the results from Dr. Naugton's presentation or are we still expecting some other news? Did Spencer mention when Dr. Ziering would be giving us the news?

2. On sites like Hairsite members such as Iron Moan and his crew say that Histogen won't work, at least not without a lot of extra research on it. I don't understand how they can say this given the results presented by Histogen so far, are they saying Histogen are lying? I thought Histogen couldn't lie on their results cos they're going through proper clinical trials unlike all the 'snake oils' out there. So can someone explain why these people claim that it won't work when it already appears as if it definately does work?

3. Why are the same people as mentioned above so happy to believe that Gho works from photos of the same standard as Histogen but class Histogen's photos as dodgy? I want to believe both can work but I'd much rather have a successful treatment with Histogen than Gho. As others have said, Gho is NOT a cure, in my mind he is just a refined version of FUE, I have no problem with that but I hope for something better.

----------


## tizzle

1. As i understand it, the news Dr. Naughton presented were the exciting news (And they sure as hell were exciting  :Smile:  ) 

2. Histogen cannot afford to lie. If you mess with clinical trials i guess you will get FDA-blacklisted, probably there will be some criminal consequences and the company would lose its credibility 

3. Dont know

----------


## UK Boy

Thanks for your reply Tizzle.

Answers were pretty much as I expected.

You're right the results presented by Dr. Naughton were indeed exciting so I can see why that was the 'exciting news'.

It was my view also that Histogen can't risk lying so that's why I really can't understand the views of these people.

Are we sure there's not a group of people getting some kinda comission from Gho, LOL! I'm only joking! I know I'll get ripped into unless I make that clear!

----------


## BoSox

> 1. As i understand it, the news Dr. Naughton presented were the exciting news (And they sure as hell were exciting  )


 Can you summarize the news again? For some reason I thought what was presented was old news and that they had something else.

----------


## Tracy C

> is this the reason for still being here?


 Yes.  I have received so much help from the American Hair Loss Association that I feel the need to give back if I can.

Also even though I now have complete coverage, I do not have the density I want.  So I pay very close attention to what is going on with these biotech companies that are trying to solve the problem.

----------


## tizzle

> Can you summarize the news again? For some reason I thought what was presented was old news and that they had something else.


 Here is the link:

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf

Its a better summary than i could ever give you  :Smile:

----------


## Maradona

> Hello everyone
> 
> 3. Why are the same people as mentioned above so happy to believe that Gho works from photos of the same standard as Histogen but class Histogen's photos as dodgy? I want to believe both can work but I'd much rather have a successful treatment with Histogen than Gho. As others have said, Gho is NOT a cure, in my mind he is just a refined version of FUE, I have no problem with that but I hope for something better.


 Gho doesn't seem to be only working from photos, research papers suggest the same thing and not only published by him but *by other scientists.*

The photos that were taken from Gho *were done by the patients himself,* not modified in any way whatsoever by Gho and were done under the same conditions so they know there isn't any modifications in them that may mislead people from the results. Photos were so clear that it was even possible to count hairs one by one, you can't say the same about histogen recent photos.

Assuming Gho does as advertised , of course it's not a cure. 

Neither is Histogen or Replicel. No treatment will eradicate baldness from every patient even if they are in the same Norwood scale. Just read the conclusions from histogen last results and Davis Hall or past scientists opinion on HM, they all point out it won't work for everyone. 
Follica, the leading research company looking for a cure, was very clear long time ago that a treatment like histogen will NOT work. But apparently they were WRONG because their results are very impressive even if it's just one patient.

As for Gho, i don't know what the hell is wrong with him. He should prove to everyone his treatment with a 3rd party clinical team and count hairs one by one instead of letting amateurs do it online if he wants to convince all the skeptics.

Either Gho doesn't give a **** or he is a lying about his claims and not doing what he says in his research papers. 
I think it's the latter.

Let's keep this thread on topic from now on.

----------


## ccmethinning

> Assuming Gho does as advertised , of course it's not a cure.


 Any why is that?

----------


## Kiwi

> Any why is that?


 Perhaps because you loose all your hair first. A cure would stop balding.

----------


## Kiwi

Why **** are you talking about Gho's FUE procedure on the Histogen thread.

Histogen are way more reputable the Gho. Not only that but Gho is unaffordable for most of us even if there was proof.

Histogen is where it's at in terms of cutting edge future treatments (I.e this topic). I just pray they hurry the hell up :P

----------


## ccmethinning

> Perhaps because you loose all your hair first. A cure would stop balding.


 Or you could just get incremental HST procedures as your hairline recedes, in effect never having to have significant baldness.

----------


## Tracy C

> Any why is that?


 Because it does not prevent further hair loss.

----------


## doinmyheadin

In regards to the picture with the blonde ladies temple hair. I think someone else mentioned this in a earlier post.
 How come all the current treatments (finasteride  and minox) supposedly shed hair to make way for new thicker hair. Am I correct in saying HSC wont cause shedding but will strengthen your existing hair?

----------


## Nilli57211

> In regards to the picture with the blonde ladies temple hair. I think someone else mentioned this in a earlier post.
>  How come all the current treatments (finasteride  and minox) supposedly shed hair to make way for new thicker hair. Am I correct in saying HSC wont cause shedding but will strengthen your existing hair?


 I don't know about finasteride, but I honestly do not believe that minoxidil or anything that causes an initial shed is really helping your follicles.  I believe that all minoxidil does is get your follicles on the same schedule so the hairs are all breaking the surface of your scalp at the same time, creating the appearance of more hair.  But it doesn't turn vellus hairs terminal or do any "unminiaturizing."  Apparently Histogen does.  With Histogen's results and the fact that they have actually made miniaturized hair terminal again WITHOUT a shed, I'm inclined to believe the idea of the initial shed helping your follicles to be utter and complete BS.

----------


## Tracy C

> I don't know about finasteride, but I honestly do not believe that minoxidil or anything that causes an initial shed is really helping your follicles.  I believe that all minoxidil does is get your follicles on the same schedule so the hairs are all breaking the surface of your scalp at the same time, creating the appearance of more hair.  But it doesn't turn vellus hairs terminal or do any "unminiaturizing."  Apparently Histogen does.  With Histogen's results and the fact that they have actually made miniaturized hair terminal again WITHOUT a shed, I'm inclined to believe the idea of the initial shed helping your follicles to be utter and complete BS.


 You are allowed to believe anything you want to believe.  Even when it isn't true.

----------


## clandestine

tbtadmin; Spencer; Would it be at all possible to get an interview with Histogen regarding their latest release?

----------


## UK_

> *Even if that treatment were the real deal, it is not a cure* - and can never truly be considered a cure.
> 
> That is not true.  I have benefited from the current treatments and so have many others.  Unfortunately nothing works for everyone and for some people nothing works at all.


 For male pattern hair loss it would be - if Gho can obtain 80&#37; donor regeneration, we could go from hair transplants that can yield 2,000 grafts to possibly 10,000 grafts & more, those grafts would also be immune to DHT.

You're forgetting the major downfall with hair transplants IS limited donor... but it's also the fact that even with 2,000 FUE grafts a large percentage of them do not make it through the transplant process.

You've no knowledge of Gho's procedure and thus have no inclination to make comments regarding the feasibility of his work.




> You are allowed to believe anything you want to believe. Even when it isn't true.


 lol eat your heart out.

----------


## mpb47

> I don't know about finasteride, but I honestly do not believe that minoxidil or anything that causes an initial shed is really helping your follicles.  I believe that all minoxidil does is get your follicles on the same schedule so the hairs are all breaking the surface of your scalp at the same time, creating the appearance of more hair.  But it doesn't turn vellus hairs terminal or do any "unminiaturizing."  Apparently Histogen does.  With Histogen's results and the fact that they have actually made miniaturized hair terminal again WITHOUT a shed, I'm inclined to believe the idea of the initial shed helping your follicles to be utter and complete BS.


 Minox has slowed my progression for 15 years now. I have seen it undo some of my miniaturization though in time it started coming back. But don't underestimate minox as it will buy you time.

----------


## UK_

> _Enrollment of 56 patients with male pattern hair loss in the Phase I/II clinical trial of HSC has been completed, and the trial is ongoing. Dr. Gail Naughton, Histogen CEO and Chairman of the Board, presented the 12 week primary safety and efficacy data at the Society for Investigative Dermatology (SID) Annual Meeting on May 11, 2012. The treatment was well-tolerated and no study-related adverse events have been reported. In this second clinical trial of HSC, which was designed with an additional treatment timepoint, the increase in total hair count was 46.5&#37; above that seen in the pilot HSC trial at 12 weeks. Statistical significance was noted in all efficacy endpoints which include increases in total hair count (p=0.0013), terminal hairs (p=0.0135) and hair thickness (p=0.026). A brief on the data presented by Dr. Naughton during the SID Annual Meeting.
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/applications/hsc.htm_


 Music to my ears.

----------


## CAlex

@ 2020

Ive seen you post a few times of the permanent damaging effects of having a ht and that it may seriously effect any treatment that histogen may offer down the line. (not exactly what you wrote)

Do you have any idea how much this could ruin a persons chances of being a good candidate for histogen in the future to achieve optimal results?

p.s. do you think more refined hts(2008 plus) will have less of a damaging effect on scalp.

I usually dont ask these questions but your the only one ive seen post about it, as even the companies said that having hts would not eliminate people from being good candidates for treatments if i recall correctly

----------


## 2020

> @ 2020
> 
> Ive seen you post a few times of the permanent damaging effects of having a ht and that it may seriously effect any treatment that histogen may offer down the line. (not exactly what you wrote)
> 
> Do you have any idea how much this could ruin a persons chances of being a good candidate for histogen in the future to achieve optimal results?
> 
> p.s. do you think more refined hts(2008 plus) will have less of a damaging effect on scalp.
> 
> I usually dont ask these questions but your the only one ive seen post about it, as even the companies said that having hts would not eliminate people from being good candidates for treatments if i recall correctly


 no idea!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I would hold off on a transplant for at least the next year to see how all these treatments pan out....

----------


## UK_

> @ 2020
> 
> Ive seen you post a few times of the permanent damaging effects of having a ht and that it may seriously effect any treatment that histogen may offer down the line. (not exactly what you wrote)
> 
> Do you have any idea how much this could ruin a persons chances of being a good candidate for histogen in the future to achieve optimal results?
> 
> p.s. do you think more refined hts(2008 plus) will have less of a damaging effect on scalp.
> 
> I usually dont ask these questions but your the only one ive seen post about it, as even the companies said that having hts would not eliminate people from being good candidates for treatments if i recall correctly


 Dr Ziering has already stated it will be very difficult for HSC to work in scar tissue, so regenerating hair in areas you've had a transplant wont be guranteed by HSC.

----------


## Kiwi

> no idea! 
> 
> I would hold off on a transplant for at least the next year to see how all these treatments pan out....


 I don't think it will change a thing. I'd still hold off for a year though. It could be 10K you sink on a future treatment vs a HT.

----------


## Kiwi

> Dr Ziering has already stated it will be very difficult for HSC to work in scar tissue, so regenerating hair in areas you've had a transplant wont be guranteed by HSC.


 That's not a problem for people with Strip Scars though. You'll be able to get coverage up top with Histogen and then FUE into scar.

Problem solved.

----------


## TheDude

Wow!

Those are some good results..

Histogen are the real deal..

Definitely on UK's side of the argument..

----------


## CAlex

I was referring to the damage that all those tiny injection sites in your recipient area could be causing. I dont care about any scar from the donor being filled in.

So is it a consensus that if you have an ht your recipient area will have lots of micro scarring(or whatever) underneath the skin in the recipient(hairline crown etc) and it is likely to reduce any histogen like treatments success rate on an individual?

I had 2 ops in the same area so Im guessing ive done some irreversible damage and histogen wont be able to create new growth in those areas?

ops done in 2008. no noticeable loss since then. not on fin/minox

really hope I have not fukxed myself

----------


## Maradona

> I was referring to the damage that all those tiny injection sites in your recipient area could be causing. I dont care about any scar from the donor being filled in.
> 
> So is it a consensus that if you have an ht your recipient area will have lots of micro scarring(or whatever) underneath the skin in the recipient(hairline crown etc) and it is likely to reduce any histogen like treatments success rate on an individual?
> 
> I had 2 ops in the same area so Im guessing ive done some irreversible damage and histogen wont be able to create new growth in those areas?
> 
> ops done in 2008. no noticeable loss since then. not on fin/minox
> 
> really hope I have not fukxed myself


 you'll be fine.

Just don't assume histogen will cure us. It's too early to tell, it will most likely hit the market in 2018 by then most of us will be slick bald or not care about hair loss.

----------


## sickly_burnt_tree_forest

everyone always cares about their hair loss no matter what the stage of the disease. Im excited to see how histogen will work combined with hair transplants. Im one that believes there is hope for a bald scalp to gain significant coverage in the next 10 years with the future treatments combined with transplants. I think that is realistic.

----------


## UK_

> I was referring to the damage that all those tiny injection sites in your recipient area could be causing. I dont care about any scar from the donor being filled in.
> 
> So is it a consensus that if you have an ht your recipient area will have lots of micro scarring(or whatever) underneath the skin in the recipient(hairline crown etc) and it is likely to reduce any histogen like treatments success rate on an individual?
> 
> I had 2 ops in the same area so Im guessing ive done some irreversible damage and histogen wont be able to create new growth in those areas?
> 
> ops done in 2008. no noticeable loss since then. not on fin/minox
> 
> really hope I have not fukxed myself


 I wouldnt worry too much, im sure hair systems will still be available even when Histogen does come out.  lol only joking, no seriously, likely the HSC will cause the transplanted hair to grow more follicular units, this is why a HT combined with HSC would be amazing for density.

----------


## Nilli57211

> You are allowed to believe anything you want to believe.  Even when it isn't true.


 Really don't appreciate your arrogance here. What exactly makes you the expert on how minoxidil works? Especially considering that even the scientists who have specifically researched it don't even know it's precise mechanism.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Really don't appreciate your arrogance here. What exactly makes you the expert on how minoxidil works? Especially considering that even the scientists who have specifically researched it don't even know it's precise mechanism.


 tracy knows all moron. I cant believe you're questioning her.

----------


## JJJJrS

Even if everything pans out for Histogen, which is far from certain, I doubt Histogen will be a full cure where it totally restores your hair to original density. In the best case, I think it will give you a significant increase in density, which may be enough for some people. For most people, I think the best results would come in conjunction with a hair transplant, provided that they are compatible with each other. I can't see Histogen giving you a refined hairline like a top hair transplant surgeon can. Hope I'm wrong though, and something like Histogen turns out to be a full cure.

----------


## Tracy C

> tracy knows all moron.


 I do not know all.  I know a lot but I do not know all.  I do know that Minoxidil does grow hair.  I know this because I use it myself and I have witnessed first hand that it does in fact grow hair.

----------


## Maradona

> Even if everything pans out for Histogen, which is far from certain, I doubt Histogen will be a full cure where it totally restores your hair to original density. In the best case, I think it will give you a significant increase in density, which may be enough for some people. For most people, I think the best results would come in conjunction with a hair transplant, provided that they are compatible with each other. I can't see Histogen giving you a refined hairline like a top hair transplant surgeon can. Hope I'm wrong though, and something like Histogen turns out to be a full cure.


 yeah histogen will probably not be a cure. 

I think replicel best it can do is inmunize your hair for a pretty long time as tracy suggested.

Anyways Who's down for bald field trip to asia? 

Let's get together take over histogen base and treat ourselves NOW !
It might not do anything if we are too bald.

Who's down to join an army of bald men to take down Histogen's headquarters in Asia !  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## 534623

> Really don't appreciate your arrogance here. What exactly makes you the expert on *how minoxidil works?* Especially considering that even the scientists who have specifically researched it don't even know it's precise mechanism.


 that's right.

http://divineskin.com/uk/spectralDNC...oxidilMech.PDF

----------


## jpm

Just read on Histogen's website: 

'....as well as induce
stem cells in the scalp to form new follicles.' 

This is good news for slick bald areas surely??

----------


## Kiwi

> yeah histogen will probably not be a cure. 
> 
> I think replicel best it can do is inmunize your hair for a pretty long time as tracy suggested.
> 
> Anyways Who's down for bald field trip to asia? 
> 
> Let's get together take over histogen base and treat ourselves NOW !
> It might not do anything if we are too bald.
> 
> Who's down to join an army of bald men to take down Histogen's headquarters in Asia !


 Count me in!!! 

By the way bro your 2018 estimate isn't based on anything!!!

----------


## Pate

> Just read on Histogen's website: 
> 
> '....as well as induce
> stem cells in the scalp to form new follicles.' 
> 
> This is good news for slick bald areas surely??


 As we've discussed to death already... only if it's true!

There is currently no proof one way or the other that HSC created any new follicles in its human trials. The theoretical basis for it seems to suggest it is unlikely, but we don't know for sure.

----------


## UK_

I never saw this interview, dont know if you guys have or not - it's an old one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4KEtQOnuHE

----------


## 2020

The only question I have:

how many injections needed to apply "growth" over entire head? < 10 would be a success for me  :Smile:

----------


## jpm

> The only question I have:
> 
> how many injections needed to apply "growth" over entire head? < 10 would be a success for me


 bound to be more than 10 sadly.

----------


## Smiley

> The only question I have:
> 
> how many injections needed to apply "growth" over entire head? < 10 would be a success for me


 I'd take a thousand + injections if it meant I would be getting my hair back.

----------


## 2020

> I'd take a thousand + injections if it meant I would be getting my hair back.


 a thousand injections wouldn't be practical. A hundred injections wouldn't be practical either. 
it would really suck if they had to make seperate injections 2mm apart over your entire head....

----------


## Smiley

> a thousand injections wouldn't be practical. A hundred injections wouldn't be practical either. 
> it would really suck if they had to make seperate injections 2mm apart over your entire head....


 Who knows? But I'm definitely willing to take the max amount of injections.



Btw if this stuff hits Asia early, I'll be on the first plane there.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> Who knows? But I'm definitely willing to take the max amount of injections.
> 
> 
> 
> Btw if this stuff hits Asia early, I'll be on the first plane there.


 They would have to charter hairloss flights.  :Big Grin:

----------


## 2020

> Who knows? But I'm definitely willing to take the max amount of injections.


 yes but it will be extremely hard to distribute all that growth evenly if it only spreads over 2mm.....

----------


## Smiley

> They would have to charter hairloss flights.


 Haha..for sure. Asia would be invaded!





> yes but it will be extremely hard to distribute all that growth evenly if it only spreads over 2mm.....


 It might be a very time consuming task, like a ht maybe?

----------


## 2020

> It might be a very time consuming task, like a ht maybe?


 much worse so it would be very bad if the number of injections needed over entire head(female market) is over 20.....

----------


## Smiley

> much worse so it would be very bad if the number of injections needed over entire head(female market) is over 20.....


 Why is that? why would it be bad if it was over 20 injections?

----------


## 2020

> Why is that? why would it be bad if it was over 20 injections?


 as I said, it would be very hard to apply that growth EVENLY if the injection radius is very small. Results won't look good and less surgeons will take up on it

----------


## CAlex

Based on the original trial data they were able to get hair to grow about 2mm from the injection site.

Im estimating based on that. Id say about 9 injections per cm2

we really havent been informed if in the latest phase the new growth area increased in terms of how far from the injection site new growth was seen plus it is a definite possibility that multiple injections over larger surface ares could have a ripple like effect and help increase growth from the origin point.

@2020 I wouldn't really be worried about uneven growth. I hope people here aren't naive to believe this will be a one shot deal. Im sure most people would opt for top up procedures to increase density or to readdress areas where growth looks sporadic. 

I think hairline work would be like 350-400 injections and nw7 being a pretty rough 1800 plus pokes lol

----------


## 25 going on 65

> I think hairline work would be like 350-400 injections and nw7 being a pretty rough 1800 plus pokes lol


 Ouch.
Sounds no worse than the thousands of cuts made during a transplant though.

----------


## 2020

> Ouch.
> Sounds no worse than the thousands of cuts made during a transplant though.


 I truly hope Histogen will figure out a way to lessen the number of injections....

----------


## Tracy C

The number of injections it might possibly be does not bother me - as long as their treatment works.  They could always map your scalp and create a template, similar to the way prosthetic hair is made, to get the injections right.

----------


## Gjm127

Sorry for repeating...
So basically now we have to wait till December until we hear from them again?
Till then they'll be done with Phase 2 (0.5 years) and Phase 3 will start (1 year), then FDA approval (1-2 years for USA) and release in Asia (approx. 1 year)?
My estimation: 4.5 years for USA and 3.5 years for Asia?
Does it seem legit?

----------


## 2020

> Sorry for repeating...
> So basically now we have to wait till December until we hear from them again?
> Till then they'll be done with Phase 2 (0.5 years) and Phase 3 will start (1 year), then FDA approval (1-2 years for USA) and release in Asia (approx. 1 year)?
> My estimation: 4.5 years for USA and 3.5 years for Asia?
> Does it seem legit?


 Phase 2 will last a full year - january to december.

Yes, phase 3(if even needed for Asia) will start sometime in 2013 and ends in probably 2014.

2014-2015 for asia and 2015-2016 is not unrealistic at this point.

----------


## john2399

> Phase 2 will last a full year - january to december.
> 
> Yes, phase 3(if even needed for Asia) will start sometime in 2013 and ends in probably 2014.
> 
> 2014-2015 for asia and 2015-2016 is not unrealistic at this point.


 I want to know that question too does outside countries need phase 3? i hate how these trials r so dam long

----------


## mjolnir

Regarding the length of trials, do keep in mind that this is still a very new and experimental treatment. Maybe the FDA does make things take a bit longer than is absolutely necessary - I really don't know - but it's not actually a bad idea to be extra sure that Histogen is safe. I certainly don't enjoy having a bald spot, but at the end of the day this is still a purely cosmetic treatment that we're talking about.

----------


## WashedOut

> I want to know that question too does outside countries need phase 3? i hate how these trials r so dam long


 Not all countries require phase 3. This is why they could release in asia sooner if they wanted.

----------


## john2399

> Not all countries require phase 3. This is why they could release in asia sooner if they wanted.


 I hope your right. I don't get what phase 3 is for. Phase 1 is primarily for safety and phase 2 is to test efficacy. What do we need phase 3 for ?

----------


## mjolnir

> I hope your right. I don't get what phase 3 is for. Phase 1 is primarily for safety and phase 2 is to test efficacy. What do we need phase 3 for ?


 If your treatment results in the agonizing death of 1 out of every 100 patients (maybe they have some rare, recessive gene, for instance), then a 50 person phase 1 trial isn't necessarily going to catch that. A 3000 person phase 3 trial, on the other hand, might. There is actually a reason for the way things are done. I agree it's frustrating, but personally I don't plan on rushing off to Asia the instant this is available.

----------


## doinmyheadin

> If your treatment results in the agonizing death of 1 out of every 100 patients (maybe they have some rare, recessive gene, for instance), then a 50 person phase 1 trial isn't necessarily going to catch that. A 3000 person phase 3 trial, on the other hand, might. There is actually a reason for the way things are done. I agree it's frustrating, but personally I don't plan on rushing off to Asia the instant this is available.


 1 in 100 thats on par with finasteride. I think a lot of people would be happy with those odds. :Big Grin:

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> The number of injections it might possibly be does not bother me - as long as their treatment works.  They could always map your scalp and create a template, similar to the way prosthetic hair is made, to get the injections right.


 Exactly. Labour intensive but not moreso than HT already is. Like the mapping out idea.

----------


## gmonasco

> They could always map your scalp and create a template, similar to the way prosthetic hair is made, to get the injections right.


 I imagine it looking something like this:

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Haha.  :Big Grin:  Nice one gmonasco.

----------


## Tracy C

> I imagine it looking something like this:


 Actually, that is exactly what I was thinking too.  Ha ha  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Horseshoe

> Ouch.
> Sounds no worse than the thousands of cuts made during a transplant though.


 It would probably be less painful than a head tattoo (SMP). And a lot less painful than the emotional pain of losing one's hair....

----------


## Supersixx

Or they might advance they findings, up the dosing take away a little of this add a drop a that and viuala , MAGIC....all u need is is one injection..on a flip note, how would you feel if you rushed over to Asia and get 1000 injections for mediocre uneven results looking like mange, then when it reaches the states and all you need was 4 for a perfect NW0?

----------


## 2020

> Or they might advance they findings, up the dosing take away a little of this add a drop a that and viuala , MAGIC....all u need is is one injection..


 that would be excellent.

MY ONE AND ONLY PROBLEM WITH HISTOGEN -- the number of injections.... please keep it low...




> on a flip note, how would you feel if you rushed over to Asia and get 1000 injections for mediocre uneven results looking like *mange*, then when it reaches the states and all you need was 4 for a perfect NW0?


 wow I didn't need to see that....

----------


## greatjob!

I thought I remember reading somewhere that they were also developing a device for the treatment. I don't remember where, I'll see if I can find it. But nonetheless for me the number of injections is the last thing I'm worried about

----------


## tizzle

> I thought I remember reading somewhere that they were also developing a device for the treatment. I don't remember where, I'll see if I can find it. But nonetheless for me the number of injections is the last thing I'm worried about


 that would be awesome. More injections means more time consuming procedure = more expensive. I dont care about the pain of multiple inhections tought

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Phase 2 will last a full year - january to december.
> 
> Yes, phase 3(if even needed for Asia) will start sometime in 2013 and ends in probably 2014.
> 
> 2014-2015 for asia and 2015-2016 is not unrealistic at this point.


 LOL


ya just like their _las_t timeline.....




these guys wont have anything anywhere until 2020

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> LOL
> 
> 
> ya just like their _las_t timeline.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these guys wont have anything anywhere until 2020


 Why not? They know their technology works. Why would it take so long?

----------


## BoSox

2020 release? They are well into clinical trials, with incredible results. I highly doubt it will take 8 years for this to be released.

2014 Asia, 2015 US. I'm still confident in this timeline.

----------


## 2020

> LOL
> 
> 
> ya just like their _las_t timeline.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these guys wont have anything anywhere until 2020


 SkinMedica lawsuit set them back.... do you remember what happened in 2009?

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/...rs-lawsuit-hi/




> Histogen, a San Diego company that revealed promising trial with a hair regrowth product last week, *is about $1 million in debt and is staying afloat on the credit cards and cash of Chief Executive Gail Naughton.*
> 
> Jan. 29, the day before the company was to close a $2.4 million funding round, *investors pulled out*, Naughton said. As a result, *Histogen was forced to lay off all of its 36 employees* until it could secure new investors, she said.
> 
> In the meantime, most of the laid-off employees are *continuing to work without receiving pay*, at least not right away.
> 
> “Basically we have 19 to 20 people working as if nothing happened because they believe in the product and the company. They don't want to shut down the experiments they are running,” Naughton said yesterday. “Obviously they cannot do this a long time. It's a short-term situation.”


 It's a miracle that Histogen even recovered from that at all....

----------


## Davey Jones

> In the meantime, most of the laid-off employees are continuing to work without receiving pay, at least not right away.


 


> It's a miracle that Histogen even recovered from that at all....


 I want to kiss every single one of those people right on the mouth even more than I want SkinMedica to have a singular face that I can punch square in the nose.

----------


## iHope

HISTOGEN <3

Thank you for all effort... and to any other company that is trying to make our lives easier....

----------


## Tracy C

> HISTOGEN <3
> 
> Thank you for all effort... and to any other company that is trying to make our lives easier....


 +1000  I would be grateful l for any improvement large or small - but preferably large.   :Smile:

----------


## john2399

Anyone know when we getting that interview from spencer?

----------


## TravisB

The employees continued to work without pay for some time, because they know that this technology is THE sh*t, and when they'll bring it to the market the company will be earning millions or billions $$$ (assuming it would work that well)  :Big Grin:

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Skinmedica's CEO has hair - explains the law suit

----------


## Gjm127

I tried showing Histogen's findings and results to my friend. He didn't buy any of it and said it's definitely a scam. I myself know it's not a scam because they've been on this for a long time and we all know here and believe that they're legit with all the clinical trial progress etc... 

So I tried googling "Histogen" and expected to shove him numerous amounts of information on it but I couldn't even find a Wikipedia page on them. All the information is on THEIR site, nowhere wlse. I wonder why... Why isn't Histogen all over the internet and the news?

How else can someone prove their legitimacy?
I know they're legitimate, but how can I prove it?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> 2020 release? They are well into clinical trials, with incredible results. I highly doubt it will take 8 years for this to be released.
> 
> 2014 Asia, 2015 US. I'm still confident in this timeline.


 


> I tried showing Histogen's findings and results to my friend. He didn't buy any of it and said it's definitely a scam. I myself know it's not a scam because they've been on this for a long time and we all know here and believe that they're legit with all the clinical trial progress etc... 
> 
> So I tried googling "Histogen" and expected to shove him numerous amounts of information on it but I couldn't even find a Wikipedia page on them. All the information is on THEIR site, nowhere wlse. I wonder why... Why isn't Histogen all over the internet and the news?
> 
> How else can someone prove their legitimacy?
> I know they're legitimate, but how can I prove it?


 I work in a start up.

We don't have a wikipedia page.

There is no point. Only time a heavy PR blitz is useful is when you are selling a product. And TBH for most start ups, they like to keep a low profile incase people catch onto what they are doing and steal the idea.

Histogen is no different.

Look what happened to replicel with their PR blitz, it backfired.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

> Look what happened to replicel with their PR blitz, it backfired.


 Oh man it backfired big time unfortunately. They really talked it up and that Tobin Smith guy kept trying to pump their stock. Now that we've heard the results I can't say I like how they go about their business. I know they needed funding but they should have saved the hype for when they realised they actually had something big. Look at their site. They're all style and no substance. I thought they probably had something because they were miles behind Aderans yet seemed bold enough to be predicting timelines to market that right now look frankly ridiculous. I was so optimistic about them but not now. I mean who'd want to invest in them now? (Sorry Spencer, that's just how I feel about it).

Histogen seem to be a little bit more low key. They haven't been caught up in a whirlwind of hype and they just quietly go about their business then provide some interim results at a conference in a low key enough manner but...BAM! RESULTS DELIVER BIG TIME!!! Was really nice after the disappointment of the Replicel results.

At least there's a good few companies out there trying. One day...

----------


## greatjob!

I never chimed in during the Replicel build up or back fire, but regardless of what went down paying a equities research company, like the one Tobin Smith runs, to increase your exposure is pretty much standard practice for small publicly traded companies. It is not a sleaze ball scammer move; it is the standard in the investment world. Tobin Smith may have went a little overboard which is why a retraction was issued, but I don't think Replicel did anything wrong. If you invest more money than you would be comfortable throwing in the trash can in a stock like Replicel, you only have yourself to blame.

----------


## Follicle Death Row

Well said man. No doubt Tobin Smith went way overboard. I tend not to buy into hype generally. Feel bad for David Hall and Dr. Hoffman. They seem like standup guys and I'm sure they expected better results but at least they're hanging in there.

----------


## Nilli57211

> SkinMedica lawsuit set them back.... do you remember what happened in 2009?
> 
> http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/...rs-lawsuit-hi/
> 
> 
> 
> It's a miracle that Histogen even recovered from that at all....


 Yeah, I don't understand how people are still talking crap about Histogen for not being able to keep up with their original timeline.  I think it's an actual miracle that they're still going strong after dealing with that lawsuit - against all odds, they won, and then they started official trials within the year.  Just over a year ago, the odds were against them completely.  Now, their trials are underway, they're getting fantastic results, and things are looking good.  I don't get how everyone doesn't see that this is really nothing short of amazing.

I think it's awesome that people were continuing to work without pay.  It shows that they must have really believed in what they were doing.  With great results, a genius concept, and great workers like that, I don't see how this company could go wrong.

**** SkinMedica...if not for them, HSC may already be on the market or be on the market within months.

But with the results Histogen is getting, for the first time I think their anticipated release date is actually possible.

Whatever they're saying, I wouldn't count on it hitting the markets in the US before 2020, because of the FDA - have they even started trials in the US?  But outside the country, I think 2014-2015 is perfectly realistic.  And I think that people who want it enough will save their money in the meantime and be willing to fly out to Asia to get the treatment.

----------


## Maradona

> Yeah, I don't understand how people are still talking crap about Histogen for not being able to keep up with their original timeline.  I think it's an actual miracle that they're still going strong after dealing with that lawsuit - against all odds, they won, and then they started official trials within the year.  Just over a year ago, the odds were against them completely.  Now, their trials are underway, they're getting fantastic results, and things are looking good.  I don't get how everyone doesn't see that this is really nothing short of amazing.
> 
> I think it's awesome that people were continuing to work without pay.  It shows that they must have really believed in what they were doing.  With great results, a genius concept, and great workers like that, I don't see how this company could go wrong.
> 
> **** SkinMedica...if not for them, HSC may already be on the market or be on the market within months.
> 
> But with the results Histogen is getting, for the first time I think their anticipated release date is actually possible.
> 
> Whatever they're saying, I wouldn't count on it hitting the markets in the US before 2020, because of the FDA - have they even started trials in the US?  But outside the country, I think 2014-2015 is perfectly realistic.  And I think that people who want it enough will save their money in the meantime and be willing to fly out to Asia to get the treatment.


 What's everyone with skin medica? did they stop the hair from growing out the trial participants?

Wake up small the bald coffee! By the time histogen comes we will all be incurable  even with propecia.

----------


## Nilli57211

> What's everyone with skin medica? did they stop the hair from growing out the trial participants?
> 
> Wake up small the bald coffee! By the time histogen comes we will all be incurable  even with propecia.


 SkinMedica screwed Histogen financially for years, preventing them from being able to focus on their trials and causing delays in the progress they could have been making much earlier had they had the financial means to do so.

As for Histogen coming out too late for anyone here, speak for yourself...

----------


## Supersixx

....I swear these companies aren't looking in the right places for strong investing or a major cash infusion. I'm sure theres some dude in Dubai willing to sacrifice building his 10th man made island all in the name of replicel.  :Big Grin:  Maybe David Hall should go on 'shark tank' , daymond john would be all in.  :Big Grin:

----------


## WashedOut

> What's everyone with skin medica? did they stop the hair from growing out the trial participants?
> 
> Wake up small the bald coffee! By the time histogen comes we will all be incurable  even with propecia.


 Who is we? Sounds more like you...and for that I am sorry.

----------


## cleverusername

> What's everyone with skin medica? did they stop the hair from growing out the trial participants?
> 
> Wake up small the bald coffee! By the time histogen comes we will all be incurable  even with propecia.


 Maradona if you don't mind me asking, what NW are you?

----------


## Maradona

> Who is we? Sounds more like you...and for that I am sorry.


 The big problem is you guys keep making excuses and are deluding yourselves going around circles 1 year 2 years 3 years phase 1 phase 2 skinmedica nice results on one patient. 

I was at that position some time ago. You can check my old posts.


I do now understand the whole scope of these companies. The more you research and read, the more you will understand too and face reality.

None of these companies will be a mainstream treatment for baldness, not even propecia is. None of them will bring you back to a nice nw1 , forget it. Wake up, Smell the bald coffee. 

Histogen has something promising but YOU NEED TO ACT NOW AS JOE FROM STATEN ISLAND HAS SAID if you want to benefit from this. 

Otherwise you will be stuck for at least 10 years until Histogen tries to improve their formula to make it consistent and marketable.

This thread is full of shit IMHO. Just useless posts going around in circles. 

"How many injections? we can use this device. Link pictures". "Phase 2 can be skipped, phase 3 can be skipped". "let's calculate how many years, according to wikipedia phase 3 takes...." 

I agree with what spencer says on his show.

 "Live your life NOW guys, stop waiting for the cure".

----------


## iHope

Well of course! Live your life now, do what you can do now, and support and hope for treatment that will give extra years (or decades) to your hair... but of course...do for your hair whatever you can now and take best advantages of it... go out and have some fun  :Smile:  . That's something that everyone should live like.

----------


## TravisB

> The big problem is you guys keep making excuses and are deluding yourselves going around circles 1 year 2 years 3 years phase 1 phase 2 skinmedica nice results on one patient. 
> 
> I was at that position some time ago. You can check my old posts.
> 
> 
> I do now understand the whole scope of these companies. The more you research and read, the more you will understand too and face reality.
> 
> None of these companies will be a mainstream treatment for baldness, not even propecia is. None of them will bring you back to a nice nw1 , forget it. Wake up, Smell the bald coffee. 
> 
> ...


 And what can you know? I myself am sure that we will have new more effective and with less side effects treatment before 2020. If not histogen, then CB or something else.

Histogen seems like a most credible hair regeneration treatment ever, they showed that they can actually regrow and thicken significant amount of hair on HUMANS, not on any f*cking MICE like the other companies. And they are going forward like a thunder. All we need to do is keep our hair for a few more years, so we will have hair left to save with future treatment. and thus I'm jumping on Fin soon. Fin guarantees to keep your hair for at least 5 years. I don't think there'll be treatment giving full head of hair to a slick bald scalps any time soon, but there will be treatments to recover and thicken up your remaining hair.

We have the tough choice now. Either say "screw it" and go bald, and be it for the rest of our lives, or try to hold to our hair when hopefully there'll be better treatment in a few years. If you went bald, and it turned out that in a few years they'll have a treatment that would keep your hair for life, you would regret not saving your hair soooo much.

----------


## Maradona

> And what can you know? I myself am sure that we will have new more effective and with less side effects treatment before 2020. If not histogen, then CB or something else.
> 
> Histogen seems like a most credible hair regeneration treatment ever. And they are going forward like a thunder. All we need to do is keep our hair for a few more years, so we will have hair left to save with future treatment. and thus I'm jumping on Fin soon. Fin guarantees to keep your hair for at least 5 years. I don't think there'll be treatment giving full head of hair to a slick bald scalps any time soon, but there will be treatments to recover and thicken up your remaining hair.


 I think I remember you from hair loss talk forums. I was going to jump on fin .5mg but I realized it's not worth the risk especially with very agressive hair loss like mine and the side effects I had.

If you have mild/moderate hairloss and if you are going to drop propecia in 5 years because a "magical cure" like histogen will come out in "5 years" and completely INMUNIZE and THICKEN your hair as THICK as a tree then there might not be a need for propecia for 5 years.

If you have agressive hairloss then 1mg fin (assuming you dont have sides) is your choice.

About histogen what can we do? The consumer has to talk to this company and demand for their treatment NOW. If we gather enough clients that will go a long way help their financing for phase 3 or whatever they may need.

The problem is of course that we don't know how effective and how many injections are required.

I'm aware the above is nearly impossible to achieve but it's better than going around circles talking about the device that could be used to inject 1000 injections in your scalp at the same time.  :Cool:

----------


## Kiwi

> I think I remember you from hair loss talk forums. I was going to jump on fin .5mg but I realized it's not worth the risk especially with very agressive hair loss like mine and the side effects I had.
> 
> If you have mild/moderate hairloss and if you are going to drop propecia in 5 years because a "magical cure" like histogen will come out in "5 years" and completely INMUNIZE and THICKEN your hair as THICK as a tree then there might not be a need for propecia for 5 years.
> 
> If you have agressive hairloss then 1mg fin (assuming you dont have sides) is your choice.
> 
> About histogen what can we do? The consumer has to talk to this company and demand for their treatment NOW. If we gather enough clients that will go a long way help their financing for phase 3 or whatever they may need.
> 
> The problem is of course that we don't know how effective and how many injections are required.
> ...


 So what does Joe propose we do? I'm keen to support the cause... If Histogen works now as it is they should **** refining and help us out. 

And then launch another newer concentrate!!!

----------


## Maradona

> So what does Joe propose we do? I'm keen to support the cause... If Histogen works now as it is they should **** refining and help us out. 
> 
> And then launch another newer concentrate!!!


 I don't know man. 

But thinking about it, histogen giving us their injections now might be detrimental to them as it may prove it's inconsistency and snake oil nature behind it.

I don't think they will risk that.

Joe doesn't propose anything.

----------


## Kiwi

> I don't know man. 
> 
> But thinking about it, histogen giving us their injections now might be detrimental to them as it may prove it's inconsistency and snake oil nature behind it.
> 
> I don't think they will risk that.
> 
> Joe doesn't propose anything.


 Dude what do you mean snake oil, replicel come here and rape our souls and hopes, show us nothing, but Histogen actually show Terminal improvement. 

I actually think Aderans might hit the market first though, since they are already 300 + patients in phase III... But who really knows :P

----------


## Maradona

> Dude what do you mean snake oil, replicel come here and rape our souls and hopes, show us nothing, but Histogen actually show Terminal improvement. 
> 
> I actually think Aderans might hit the market first though, since they are already 300 + patients in phase III... But who really knows :P


 I agree with you. Histogen is the most promising.

Aderans phase 3? if any company other than merk gets to phase 3 that would be the day  bald men should be talking about devices and injections and all that crazy stuff that goes over this thread.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Dude what do you mean snake oil, replicel come here and rape our souls and hopes, show us nothing, but Histogen actually show Terminal improvement. 
> 
> I actually think Aderans might hit the market first though, since they are already 300 + patients in phase III... But who really knows :P


 
...oh yeah, aderans. Arethey really in phase 3.
Ad what EXACTLY are aderans doing?

----------


## WashedOut

> I agree with you. Histogen is the most promising.
> 
> Aderans phase 3? if any company other than merk gets to phase 3 that would be the day  bald men should be talking about devices and injections and all that crazy stuff that goes over this thread.


 Histogen is the first company to actually show results and you're bringing them down. I'm sure if you could get on fin and not get sides you would be happy but because you can't and you are losing your hair fast you gotta rain on the parade.

----------


## kaandereli

aderans is gonna start phase 2 in UK ( as i see from their site ) , they are far behind histogen.

----------


## Maradona

> Histogen is the first company to actually show results and you're bringing them down. I'm sure if you could get on fin and not get sides you would be happy but because you can't and you are losing your hair fast you gotta rain on the parade.


 You're wrong I wasn't raining on anyone's parade before (in fact the opposite) and I was losing my hair FAAAAAAAAAAST.

I'm not raining on the parade, do you want to see me REALLY rain on the parade?

I'm just being realistic. 

Trust me you don't want to see me raining on the parade. It would be a bloodbath.

----------


## Pate

> aderans is gonna start phase 2 in UK ( as i see from their site ) , they are far behind histogen.


 LOL it amazes me how nobody on this forum can ever manage to agree on anything, even something so basic as what trial stage Aderans is at. Despite us all supposedly being desperate for updates on the treatments - you'd think we'd all know. For the record, you're both wrong.

Aderans are not in Phase 3 but they started Phase 2 in 2009. They are aiming to finish Phase 2 this year and start Phase 3 next year.

Aderans are furthest ahead and should be first to market unless something goes seriously wrong with their Phase 3. They are also the only one fully funded.

----------


## re22

> You're wrong I wasn't raining on anyone's parade before (in fact the opposite) and I was losing my hair FAAAAAAAAAAST.
> 
> I'm not raining on the parade, do you want to see me REALLY rain on the parade?
> 
> I'm just being realistic. 
> 
> Trust me you don't want to see me raining on the parade. It would be a bloodbath.


 You're not really being any more realistic than anyone else though. You're throwing around some arbitrary years and have convinced yourself that your predictions are more in touch with potential setbacks that may occur, but they're not based on facts or anything concrete. More cynical doesn't always entail being more in touch with reality.

----------


## re22

I also find it interesting how you've done a complete 180 since the Replicel results came out. It's all part of that "Fool me once..." mentality that you see frequently on these sites, where a lot of users credulously jump on some bandwagon, but once they feel like they've been let down they suddenly become self-righteous and begin to scoff at anyone who shows interest in these treatments. I still think you're one of the most in depth posters on the site, but don't become one of these hairless rodents you see here who put other posters down because they remind them of their own flaws.

----------


## Maradona

> I also find it interesting how you've done a complete 180 since the Replicel results came out. It's all part of that "Fool me once..." mentality that you see frequently on these sites, where a lot of users credulously jump on some bandwagon, but once they feel like they've been let down they suddenly become self-righteous and begin to scoff at anyone who shows interest in these treatments. I still think you're one of the most in depth posters on the site, but don't become one of these hairless rodents you see here who put other posters down because they remind them of their own flaws.


 ever since the replicel or "3 days" before the replicel results I understood what all this is about. Sold my stocks right before the announcement saved my ass and told people about it.

It is painful to me to see you guys going around this endless loop. I was part of it as many many posters here in baldtruth who have left the forums.


I will admit that there is a small hope out there, but we got nothing at this moment. 

I have actually been researching something else now and I have come to the conclusion that companies like histogen or replicel will not be "it".

There is hope but no hope in histogen in my opinion, especially for those nw6 horshoes who I feel the most pain.

You will never get definite answers from these 'scientists'. You have to look around for yourself, it isn't hard then you will notice what's going on.

The cure or better yet a treatment will come from something else. Time will let you know about it.

Definitely not histogen or replicel. For now live your lives and TRY to enjoy it, when the better treatment comes it will come.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> ever since the replicel or "3 days" before the replicel results I understood what all this is about. Sold my stocks right before the announcement saved my ass and told people about it.
> 
> It is painful to me to see you guys going around this endless loop. I was part of it as many many posters here in baldtruth who have left the forums.
> 
> 
> I will admit that there is a small hope out there, but we got nothing at this moment. 
> 
> I have actually been researching something else now and I have come to the conclusion that companies like histogen or replicel will not be "it".
> 
> ...


 Maradona, what are you basing these assumptions on?

Histogen have released hard evidence which has regrowth. What more do you want?

The difference between replicel and Histogen, is that replicel had not even completed phase 1 before you placed hope into them.

I remember at the time thinking, what on earth is all of the hype about? They are not only behind everyone else in terms of releasing a marketable product, but they have nothing to show for it. It was a car crash waiting to happen. I avoided buying shares for this reason, saw it coming.

Same thing with intercytex, who failed last time. They were only able to regrow microscopic hairs after phase 2.

I will agree NW6 will have it the hardest. Then again you are not, and you won't be any time soon.

----------


## WashedOut

> ever since the replicel or "3 days" before the replicel results I understood what all this is about. Sold my stocks right before the announcement saved my ass and told people about it.
> 
> It is painful to me to see you guys going around this endless loop. I was part of it as many many posters here in baldtruth who have left the forums.
> 
> 
> I will admit that there is a small hope out there, but we got nothing at this moment. 
> 
> I have actually been researching something else now and I have come to the conclusion that companies like histogen or replicel will not be "it".
> 
> ...


 Whatever man this is all about you right now. There are gonna be a lot of guys that are just starting to thin when histogen comes out and they will be able to use it. A lot of people on this forum are on propecia and saving their hair and wanna get off the stuff and histogen will help them out too. It's just another form of treatment and a pretty good one too.

----------


## BoSox

I see negative posts on Aderan's thread, and I come here and see the same.

**** this forum, I'm done.

----------


## TrueGround

> You're wrong I wasn't raining on anyone's parade before (in fact the opposite) and I was losing my hair FAAAAAAAAAAST.
> 
> I'm not raining on the parade, do you want to see me REALLY rain on the parade?
> 
> I'm just being realistic. 
> 
> Trust me you don't want to see me raining on the parade. It would be a bloodbath.


 A bloodbath?  Seriously, dude?

Go ahead and try to REALLY "rain on everyone's parade".  I don't think anybody is going to be too shocked about anything you'll have to say.

I agree everybody needs to do their best to enjoy their lives now and try to move on from hair loss struggles.  Frantically waiting around for updates from these companies will drive you crazy.  However, I genuinely believe these are very exciting times for hair loss sufferers.  If you are a NW6 or worse, it's pretty obvious nothing has yet been brought to the table that will give you a full head of hair.  But if someone is that bald, I would assume they've been dealing with the emotional throws and just need to buzz the dome and move on.  For the younger guys starting to lose hair though, which I personally know is the hardest circumstance, there seems to be a good deal of hope.

----------


## TrueGround

> I see negative posts on Aderan's thread, and I come here and see the same.
> 
> **** this forum, I'm done.


 I agree, man.  I knew there was a reason I've avoided this forum for years.  I only recently got involved because it seemed to have the most "coverage" of the future treatments coming out, before and leading up to Replicel's Phase I news release.

I won't be back here for a while.

----------


## 2020

stop with this "NW6 will be screwed" nonsense.

ALL people(bald or hairy) have the SAME NUMBER OF STEM CELLS on their scalp. The difference is the number of PROGENITOR CELLS!

Histogen is trying to fix that specifically through WNT SIGNALING which will help those stem cells differentiate into PROGENITOR CELLS which will then basically "rebuild" the follicles.

I'll go apeshit if someone mentions a "point of no return" again...

----------


## john2399

> stop with this "NW6 will be screwed" nonsense.
> 
> ALL people(bald or hairy) have the SAME NUMBER OF STEM CELLS on their scalp. The difference is the number of PROGENITOR CELLS!
> 
> Histogen is trying to fix that specifically through WNT SIGNALING which will help those stem cells differentiate into PROGENITOR CELLS which will then basically "rebuild" the follicles.
> 
> I'll go apeshit if someone mentions a "point of no return" again...


 preach it 2020...im glad someone knows their shit

----------


## neversaynever

> stop with this "NW6 will be screwed" nonsense.
> 
> ALL people(bald or hairy) have the SAME NUMBER OF STEM CELLS on their scalp. The difference is the number of PROGENITOR CELLS!
> 
> Histogen is trying to fix that specifically through WNT SIGNALING which will help those stem cells differentiate into PROGENITOR CELLS which will then basically "rebuild" the follicles.
> 
> I'll go apeshit if someone mentions a "point of no return" again...


 Histogen have yet to confirm they are even testing it on slick bald scalps. I imagine because it would severely damage their statistics. 

If histogen were waking up these sleeping follicles, and making them grow hairs again, they would have published those macro photos, and been screaming it from rooftops, because they would have the cure, and will get funding instantly.

Instead, the only macro photos we have seen are of 'hairy' areas, and there has been ZERO mention of slick bald areas in this last SID pdf or ANY of the phase 1 literature.

Sure, there are the same number of cells, which maybe someone will figure out how to wake up, but for Histogens HSC, there is clearly a point of no return.

Those sleeping stem cells will not be activated by HSC.

Perhaps spencer will ask Dr Z in the next interview (?), but I have a feeling that question will be blacklisted....

So far, there is ZERO evidence or any kind of indication that Histogen have achieved ANY results with slick bald areas, or that they are even trying.

----------


## amadeus

A lot of the negatively comes form the younger more naive guys (not that all younger guys are naive)  who think they know more about hair loss science and these companies then they really do. There is so much BS being circulated all over the internet about these companies and about treatments it can make your head spin and these guys read posts from other uniformed people and thats how they draw these conclusions. You can see the immaturity( I do not mean to offend any one, but this is just a factor of being young sometimes) in the fact that some posters were running out to purchase Repicel stock without thoroughly researching the company or taking a look at the balance sheets and income statements etc., for the past couple of years.  

I don't think anyone should be discouraged based on the post of a a few negative, uniformed,, desperate kids. There is a lot of hope out there and you need to understand that the posters on the internet are not the ones to inform us about what its really going on. This forum is the best because it gives us access to the latest information on these treatments and it comes straight from the researchers themselves, but the problem is then a few negative and vocal posters take that information and twist it into something that doesn't ever resemble reality.

I choose to ignore the negatively and have added several posters to my ignore list  who I find too negative or just plain crazy. Its a great feature of this forum so I am never bothered reading the BS unless I choose to. This is by far the best hair loss forum with the best real information on the internet, but there will always be unhappy people trying to ruin it for the rest of us. I kind of wish they can be kept away from here, but I guess that would be unfair to not allow them to participate and sometimes it is entertaining to read :Smile:

----------


## 2020

> Histogen have yet to confirm they are even testing it on slick bald scalps. *I imagine because it would severely damage their statistics.*


 ^ that's exactly why. 
One injection on a bald scalp won't produce any good pictures which they need to show investors in order to get more money..... doesn't mean that it won't work though 







> Sure, there are the same number of cells, which maybe someone will figure out how to wake up, but for Histogens HSC, there is clearly a point of no return.
> 
> *Those sleeping stem cells will not be activated by HSC.*


 give me a SCIENTIFIC ANSWER as to why it's not possible....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wnt_signaling_pathway




> There are data to suggest that Wnt signaling induces differentiation of pluripotent stem cells into mesoderm and endoderm progenitor cells.


 


> The progenitor cells created via Wnt activation seemed to have particularly high potential to differentiate into bone and cartilage.

----------


## neversaynever

> ^ that's exactly why. 
> One injection on a bald scalp won't produce any good pictures which they need to show investors in order to get more money..... doesn't mean that it won't work though 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> give me a SCIENTIFIC ANSWER as to why it's not possible....
> ...


 Yes, there is science behind the thought that HSC can wake up those stem cells. There's alot of science that backs alot of the groups trying to develop baldness treatments.

But there are too many gaps in the knowledge for male pattern baldness, and gaps in knowledge for WNT signalling.

Initially, Histogen had hoped that HSC would revive 'dormant' follicles, but I think it's clear that is not going to happen, or we would have heard it from them by now.

So ok, maybe they are testing on slick bald scalps, but if they cracked it, we would know by now.

Hope? There is some...increased dosages and compounding might get some joy by the end of phase 2, lets see. It would make sense that a dormant follicle would take much longer than a thinning follicle to produce terminal hairs. I'm more convinced that HSC will prevent baldness than anything else (assuming its safe and cheap enough!)

Negative? All this madness on the forums recently after replicel and histogens news. I personally think HSC is HUGE news, and I'm excited. I'm not sure if it will help me or not, but at least its a massive step in the right direction.

----------


## 2020

> But there are too many gaps in the knowledge for male pattern baldness, and gaps in knowledge for WNT signalling.


 not really, we already know what's missing from our follicles to function normally.

If WNT signaling didn't work, Histogen wouldn't have gotten such good results. What makes you think microscopic follicles wouldn't react in the same way.

SCIENTIFIC ANSWERS PLEASE.




> Initially, Histogen had hoped that HSC would revive 'dormant' follicles, but I think it's clear that is not going to happen, or we would have heard it from them by now.


 how is it clear??? THEY HAVE NEVER EVER EVEN TRIED APPLYING THEIR FORMULA ON A BALD SCALP FOR REASONS I MENTIONED ABOVE.


Histogen will be a temporary cure for all stages of hair loss. Deal with it

----------


## neversaynever

> not really, we already know what's missing from our follicles to function normally.
> 
> If WNT signaling didn't work, Histogen wouldn't have gotten such good results. What makes you think microscopic follicles wouldn't react in the same way.
> 
> SCIENTIFIC ANSWERS PLEASE.
> 
> 
> 
> how is it clear??? THEY HAVE NEVER EVER EVEN TRIED APPLYING THEIR FORMULA ON A BALD SCALP FOR REASONS I MENTIONED ABOVE.
> ...


 Ok, so they've done all this research on a hair loss treatment, and going through the huge effort of overseas trials, without testing it on bald scalps....to ensure they get better stats to get more funding. Right? Hmmm. So when do they plan to test it on bald scalps, in phase 3? Doesn't sound right to me...

Im not a scientist, and nor are you...no amount of reading studies or wiki entries will change that. While some studies do point to wnt signalling, that does not mean it will 100&#37; work. This has been known to happen, all over the science world.

So why would it work on shrinking follicles and not follicles that have been 'sleeping' for say, 5-10 years. I dont know...

Noone knows...until someone gets results. Real results, on humans.

It probably works on mice sure.

Perhaps you can convince me, and others, in 'scientific' terms, why it WILL without doubt work...purely because bald scalps have the same number of stem cells?

Those (DP cells i think) lack the signals to become more mature progeniter cells. You're implying that HSC will activate them, no matter how long they've been dormant. I remember reading Dr cots talking about some kind of bone proteins being needed, as well as other things which regulate those proteins. I think HSC has those bone proteins in it. Of course, they are backed by science, by real studies.

We can read up as much as we want about it, but until histogen announce that they are re-activating those cells that have been dormant for a long time, jury is out.

Them not testing on bald scalps is clearly them thinking its to much of a RISK that it will damage their % stats. Thats the way i see it. So if they think there is risk of that, what do you know that they dont?

I retract my statement of 'clearly it wont work on bald scalps'. Maybe theyre saving the slick baldies for a big phase 3....

We will see.

----------


## re22

How do you know they're not testing that in Phase II?

----------


## UK_

> Yes, there is science behind the thought that HSC can wake up those stem cells. There's alot of science that backs alot of the groups trying to develop baldness treatments.
> 
> But there are too many gaps in the knowledge for male pattern baldness, and gaps in knowledge for WNT signalling.
> 
> Initially, Histogen had hoped that HSC would revive 'dormant' follicles, but I think it's clear that is not going to happen, or we would have heard it from them by now.
> 
> So ok, maybe they are testing on slick bald scalps, but if they cracked it, we would know by now.
> 
> Hope? There is some...increased dosages and compounding might get some joy by the end of phase 2, lets see. It would make sense that a dormant follicle would take much longer than a thinning follicle to produce terminal hairs. I'm more convinced that HSC will prevent baldness than anything else (assuming its safe and cheap enough!)
> ...


 Not necessarily because Histogen are recreating the process of hair follicle formation at the stage of embryogenesis.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

So Histogen is the injection treatment..Is it still 5-10 years away? I swear it's been 5 to 10 years away since it first hit the news. I just want it come out and get my injection.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

So they're now going to phase II out of how many phases?

----------


## john2399

> So they're now going to phase II out of how many phases?


 Phase 2 ends in december.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Phase 2 ends in december.


 There's 3 Phases?

When they finish phase II, when do they start phase 3? And what happens after phase 3?

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

Let's say you thicken your hair with histogen injections, you still have mpb and your hair can still fall off. Okay so what if you get these injections and you are on finasteride or dutasteride, would you maintain the histogen grown hairs?

----------


## john2399

> There's 3 Phases?
> 
> When they finish phase II, when do they start phase 3? And what happens after phase 3?


 If everything goes well, they will start phase 3 right after in 2013. After phase 3 than it hits the market but hopefully there are no delays and everything goes well.

----------


## Kiwi

> If everything goes well, they will start phase 3 right after in 2013. After phase 3 than it hits the market but hopefully there are no delays and everything goes well.


 Phase 3 might take the longest  :Frown:

----------


## tizzle

> Let's say you thicken your hair with histogen injections, you still have mpb and your hair can still fall off. Okay so what if you get these injections and you are on finasteride or dutasteride, would you maintain the histogen grown hairs?


 
My plan is to quit Finasteride the moment HSC comes out (if it works the way we all think it does). Since it gives strength to the follicles for at least a year (And Histogen said in interviews they think the follicles may last as long as the original follicles before DHT made them miniturize, if in fact they can regrow new follicles) i will get HSC every time the effect wears off and the hair starts falling out again due to DHT. I hope treatment wont be too expensive

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> My plan is to quit Finasteride the moment HSC comes out (if it works the way we all think it does). Since it gives strength to the follicles for at least a year (And Histogen said in interviews they think the follicles may last as long as the original follicles before DHT made them miniturize, if in fact they can regrow new follicles) i will get HSC every time the effect wears off and the hair starts falling out again due to DHT. I hope treatment wont be too expensive


 If that is the case, it will probably last for a good 10-20 years before you need top up

----------


## tizzle

> If that is the case, it will probably last for a good 10-20 years before you need top up


 even if it doesnt grow new follicles and only revitalizes existing ones, i would definitely get a treatment every 1-2 years without Fin if necessary (if its not too expensive) i dont want to take a pill every day for the rest of my life, especially if it works with hormones

----------


## Maradona

> even if it doesnt grow new follicles and only revitalizes existing ones, i would definitely get a treatment every 1-2 years without Fin if necessary (if its not too expensive) i dont want to take a pill every day for the rest of my life, especially if it works with hormones


 Same here. I wish I could get my hands on some HSC juice now, it will probably be useless to me when it comes out. MAYBE I could still save my ass like that woman on the pdf, if I pump myself up with some HSC juice.

The fin guys are so lucky.

----------


## 2020

> even if it doesnt grow new follicles and only revitalizes existing ones....


 why do you need new follicles when all of your follicles are already intact under the skin? Histogen won't grow "NEW" follicles. They're not cloning hair geez...

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Same here. I wish I could get my hands on some HSC juice now, it will probably be useless to me when it comes out. MAYBE I could still save my ass like that woman on the pdf, if I pump myself up with some HSC juice.
> 
> The fin guys are so lucky.


 
:*FUTURE TREATMENT FORUM-POST TEMPLATE*:



if [insert unsubstantiated hypothetical]

if [insert unsubstantiated hypothetical]

if [insert unsubstantiated hypothetical]


Then I would [insert hypothetical action]



--- End post on [insert Histogen, Aderans, Follica, Replicel] ---

----------


## Maradona

> :*FUTURE TREATMENT FORUM-POST TEMPLATE*:
> 
> 
> 
> if [insert unsubstantiated hypothetical]
> 
> if [insert unsubstantiated hypothetical]
> 
> if [insert unsubstantiated hypothetical]
> ...


 hahahahah. That is so true  :Big Grin:  .

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

God this section is getting boring.

Might check back after a year. Hairloss seems really stable, which is the good news, checked photos from 2009, everything seems to be intact.

----------


## TravisB

Maradona, did you take Finasteride in the past? Because I think I saw that you wrote somewhere that you had sides.

----------


## Maradona

> Maradona, did you take Finasteride in the past? Because I think I saw that you wrote somewhere that you had sides.


 Yes I did. I think it ****ed me up bad, i developed prostate problems. Don't know If I should blame it on fin.

Do you know where i can get some RU? I mean not RUM, just plain good ol' RU.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Yes I did. I think it ****ed me up bad, i developed prostate problems. Don't know If I should blame it on fin.
> 
> Do you know where i can get some RU? I mean not RUM, just plain good ol' RU.


 Maradona before you took fin, was your hairloss stable. 

i.e. was you shedding very little etc?

----------


## Maradona

> Maradona before you took fin, was your hairloss stable. 
> 
> i.e. was you shedding very little etc?


 I think i wasn't shedding as much.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I think i wasn't shedding as much.


 Has it ever occurred to you that maybe fin kick started your hairloss?

----------


## Maradona

> Has it ever occurred to you that maybe fin kick started your hairloss?


 It has occurred to me that it probably made it worse but i don't think that's possible.

I noticed temple recession last summer exactly a year ago. I bought the mature hairline myth for so long.

I couldn't style my hair like the picture you're seeing and that was before Fin.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> It has occurred to me that it probably made it worse but i don't think that's possible.
> 
> I noticed temple recession last summer exactly a year ago. I bought the mature hairline myth for so long.
> 
> I couldn't style my hair like the picture you're seeing and that was before Fin.


 I lost my most hair in 2009, since then it has been stable. 

I think the mature hairline describes when your hair stops for a long time before worsening. Your HL may have stabilized w/o fin, didn't sound as if you were shedding a lot.

----------


## Maradona

> I lost my most hair in 2009, since then it has been stable. 
> 
> I think the mature hairline describes when your hair stops for a long time before worsening. Your HL may have stabilized w/o fin, didn't sound as if you were shedding a lot.


 I hope it at least stabilizes like my family members. They've been balding for +15 years still nw3 but they started later  :Frown: .

Let's keep this on topic, I smell the haters hating.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I hope it at least stabilizes like my family members. They've been balding for +15 years still nw3 but they started later .
> 
> Let's keep this on topic, I smell the haters hating.


 Can you show me pics of your hairloss?

I want to see your pattern.

----------


## Maradona

> Can you show me pics of your hairloss?
> 
> I want to see your pattern.


 Same exact thing as scorpion. nw2-3 ish.

Sorry bro no pics.

----------


## 2020

I just found this on their investors document:

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/hi...orinvestor.pdf [Page 16]




> Suggested price for treatment is *$5k* versus *$4-12k* (2 procedures)


 apparently it will be even cheaper than a hair transplant...

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I just found this on their investors document:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/hi...orinvestor.pdf [Page 16]
> 
> 
> 
> apparently it will be even cheaper than a hair transplant...


 Thats decent.

£2500

----------


## TravisB

hmm 5 thousands bucks for a single procedure is not so cheap if you ask me. It depends mainly on how long the effects would last, and how significant the cosmetic results would be. If the effects would last at least 5 years, then it would be a decent price. If shorter, I don't know...

----------


## Smiley

> hmm 5 thousands bucks for a single procedure is not so cheap if you ask me. It depends mainly on how long the effects would last, and how significant the cosmetic results would be. If the effects would last at least 5 years, then it would be a decent price. If shorter, I don't know...


 I guess that would be the question. 'How long would it last?'

But that is definitely a decent price. Might be a long waiting list to get an appointment for a procedure at that price point.

----------


## john2399

How many injections per procedure ? is it how many as it takes?

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> I just found this on their investors document:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/hi...orinvestor.pdf [Page 16]
> 
> 
> 
> apparently it will be even cheaper than a hair transplant...


 Hmm.

Well $5k is not an astronomical amount of money in it's own. The question is, what is priced that way? In this case it's an injection. And, this is an injection that it's not crystal clear if it will give us the amount of coverage a current hair transplant will give us. So it's cheaper than a hair transplant, but it's probably cheaper for a reason.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Hmm.
> 
> Well $5k is not an astronomical amount of money in it's own. The question is, what is priced that way? In this case it's an injection. And, this is an injection that it's not crystal clear if it will give us the amount of coverage a current hair transplant will give us. So it's cheaper than a hair transplant, but it's probably cheaper for a reason.


 shhhh

all we can do is wait until 2025 to find out


until then we should do our best to hate on gho and promote rassmusen

----------


## 2020

> shhhh
> 
> all we can do is wait until 2025 to find out
> 
> 
> until then we should do our best to hate on gho and promote rassmusen


 explain how you came up with that number(2025).

----------


## tizzle

dont bother asking, he adds 5 years every time he posts something  :Big Grin:

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

tbh this pdf is out of date, they may change the price of the procedure later on

----------


## mlao

> dont bother asking, he adds 5 years every time he posts something


 There really should be a like button on this forum

----------


## mjolnir

I do have to say, $5k is nearing the upper limit of what my vanity is worth to me. If nothing else though, it's good to know that I would be able to afford it if I absolutely needed to. Honestly, I'm really hoping that in two or three years, or whenever this actually ends up being available, I'll have finally gotten used to the idea of being bald.

----------


## PinotQ

Here's a postive development from Allergan:  http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair...ss-medication/

Overall increase in hair density (unclear how they define hair density) 22&#37; in 50% of participants in 24 weeks.

Obviously, this is already FDA approved and on the market but it could become less expensive and more practical as a hairloss treatment in a relatively short period of time.

----------


## neversaynever

> Here's a postive development from Allergan:  http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair...ss-medication/
> 
> Overall increase in hair density (unclear how they define hair density) 22&#37; in 50% of participants in 24 weeks.
> 
> Obviously, this is already FDA approved and on the market but it could become less expensive and more practical as a hairloss treatment in a relatively short period of time.


 whats the difference between latanoprost and bimatoprost? Are there currently two seperate studies being done on them?

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/sh...toprost&rank=7

Is bernstein working with allergan?

The other study is with 600 people, gender split.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_1...the-hard-part/

----------


## PinotQ

I believe latanoprost is a similar but less effective type of prostaglandin analogue.  I don't believe Dr. Bernstein is working with Allergan.  This approach would appear to be consistent with recent research findings regarding PGD2.

----------


## Pate

Latanoprost is an older drug than bimatoprost, in fact the patent has already expired so it's available generic.

Latanoprost is also, I believe, the drug that was tested on macaque monkeys with MPB, some years ago now.

It's one of those drugs that's been around for years and but never made it on to the market for MPB, presumably because of the belief its effectiveness is limited and it would cost too much to get it through trials.

One of the depressing, constant themes of hair loss drug development. So many drugs offer more potential than minox or fin but are never developed for commercial reasons, so we're stuck with those two dinosaurs.

Hopefully the bimatoprost results are positive and Allergan rush to Phase III, knowing they will have Histogen breathing down their necks. I personally believe bimatoprost is the only new treatment we've got a chance of seeing this side of 2015.

----------


## UK_

> so we're stuck with those two dinosaurs.


 Lol yeh an one of them's a T-Rex that'll bite off yr dick if you're lucky enough.

I always thought Bimatoprost works in the same way as Minox - does it force hairs to shed initially like minox?

----------


## Jcm800

Hey UK how's the Minox going? Been on it some time now, if still using it?

----------


## PinotQ

Pate,  Good Info.  I guess I didn't read the article closely enough as I assumed the clinical trial was conducted by Allergan but their clinical trial is with Bimatoprost.  I agree that this looks like next most likely advance to reach the market

Here is small bit of research supporting that perspective:

http://dermatology-s10.cdlib.org/93/...ecia/wolf.html 
"Even though scalp hair follicles and eyelash follicles are not identical, and one cannot simply extrapolate from a drug's effect on one type of hair to another, we believe that a powerful hair stimulant that acts on one type of hair should act on other types as well. Several of the above-mentioned experimental studies support the stimulating effects of PG analogs on hairs other than eyelashes (i.e., scalp hair and body fur). Furthermore, if the proposed mechanism of minoxidil action is indeed through its stimulating effect of PGE2 synthesis, then one should ask why we need to stimulate the synthesis of PG if we can use it directly? Minoxidil (which has been used by women to thicken their eyelashes and to treat alopecia areata of this area) showed inferior results on eyelash growth than those described for latanoprost. Minoxidil and finasteride must be used continuously to sustain results, and, once discontinued, the natural balding process resumes. PG analogs have a much more powerful and longer-lasting effect.[18]"


Also, it appears that Bimatoprost may be more effective than Latanoprost with respect to hair growth...there was actually a study comparing the two:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00187577 (Comparison of Latanoprost vs Bimatoprost re eyelash growth)

Not sure if this refers to the same study but sounds like there might be quite a difference:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861943/
"In a 3-month bimatoprost versus latanoprost trial, eyelash growth was more common in the bimatoprost group (13% bimatoprost vs. 4% latanoprost)"

----------


## BoSox

Best news I heard all week. Thanks for sharing.

----------


## TravisB

Hmm, is it possible that Bim for hair loss would be so powerful that we wouldn't need to use Fin with it? I. e. would it be able to maintain hair for a very long time? And what year is it expected to hit the market?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Pate,  Good Info.  I guess I didn't read the article closely enough as I assumed the clinical trial was conducted by Allergan but their clinical trial is with Bimatoprost.  I agree that this looks like next most likely advance to reach the market
> 
> Here is small bit of research supporting that perspective:
> 
> http://dermatology-s10.cdlib.org/93/...ecia/wolf.html 
> "Even though scalp hair follicles and eyelash follicles are not identical, and one cannot simply extrapolate from a drug's effect on one type of hair to another, we believe that a powerful hair stimulant that acts on one type of hair should act on other types as well. Several of the above-mentioned experimental studies support the stimulating effects of PG analogs on hairs other than eyelashes (i.e., scalp hair and body fur). Furthermore, if the proposed mechanism of minoxidil action is indeed through its stimulating effect of PGE2 synthesis, then one should ask why we need to stimulate the synthesis of PG if we can use it directly? Minoxidil (which has been used by women to thicken their eyelashes and to treat alopecia areata of this area) showed inferior results on eyelash growth than those described for latanoprost. *Minoxidil and finasteride must be used continuously to sustain results, and, once discontinued, the natural balding process resumes. PG analogs have a much more powerful and longer-lasting* effect.[18]"
> 
> 
> Also, it appears that Bimatoprost may be more effective than Latanoprost with respect to hair growth...there was actually a study comparing the two:
> ...


 Does this mean that we don't have to use this permanently.


The other thing is:

We can get bitmoprost online, why not experiment with that?

----------


## TravisB

This stuff is expensive like hell. 2000$ for a gram!! 3ml bottle of Latisse 0.03&#37; costs around 100$. If you were to apply it on the whole head, it would last 1 day! I hope when they'll reach the mass market, the price for the ready product will be considerably lower.

----------


## Davey Jones

> This stuff is expensive like hell. 2000$ for a gram!! 3ml bottle of Latisse 0.03% costs around 100$. If you were to apply it on the whole head, it would last 1 day! I hope when they'll reach the mass market, the price for the ready product will be considerably lower.


 Latisse is not marketable to people with MPB at that price, and they know it.  Especially considering that you can currently buy it at that price, and almost no one with MPB is.  The going theory is that they will change production scale and lower the price to as much as they think people will pay for it, which is probably true.  That's how the free market typically works.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Latisse is not marketable to people with MPB at that price, and they know it.  Especially considering that you can currently buy it at that price, and almost no one with MPB is.  The going theory is that they will change production scale and lower the price to as much as they think people will pay for it, which is probably true.  That's how the free market typically works.


 The problem is, what is stopping people who use for their eye lashes to buy the MPB version - given it is cheaper?

----------


## Maradona

Let's just hope baldtapranost can buy us some time until histogen hits the market.

I need a breathing machine for my follicles otherwise they won't make it "when the saving is here".

If these companies could reveal their formulas for the vehicle we could easily make these stuff with the help of the chinese same as RU or CB.

Just pray baldtapranost reveals their study after phase 2 is done.

----------


## Davey Jones

> The problem is, what is stopping people who use for their eye lashes to buy the MPB version - given it is cheaper?


 Not much.  I'm sure they'll attempt to market them as different.  Maybe slap "Version not to be used on eye lashes" on the MPB one.  And to be fair, they might be different concentrations.  I doubt many people will want to fool with diluting just for better lashes.  Don't only rich b*tches buy that stuff anyway?

If they can't separately market them, hopefully they'll just market the MPB one, 'cause they know darn well there's more money in that if it works.

----------


## Maradona

I have an army of 10 raging bald men full of testosterone who have contacted me and are willing to take over histogen's headquarters in asia.

Come on guys let's make this happen kinda like vietnam bald men vs. histogen in singapore.

----------


## mlao

> Not much.  I'm sure they'll attempt to market them as different.  Maybe slap "Version not to be used on eye lashes" on the MPB one.  And to be fair, they might be different concentrations.  I doubt many people will want to fool with diluting just for better lashes.  Don't only rich b*tches buy that stuff anyway?
> 
> If they can't separately market them, hopefully they'll just market the MPB one, 'cause they know darn well there's more money in that if it works.


 I'm pretty sure that Allergen is testing 3 formulations that are all stronger than the version that is available for eyelashes. Also I read somewhere that the patent for the eyelash version will end in 2013 so it would only make sense to develop a stronger version for MPB.

----------


## Davey Jones

> I have an army of 10 raging bald men full of testosterone who have contacted me and are willing to take over histogen's headquarters in asia.
> 
> Come on guys let's make this happen kinda like vietnam bald men vs. histogen in singapore.


 This may be the first time we've ever agreed on anything, Maradona.  Where do I sign, Sarge?

----------


## UK_

> Hey UK how's the Minox going? Been on it some time now, if still using it?


 I stopped taking cause the shed was unbearable lol.

How about yourself?  Did it help the hair line?

----------


## LPSboxing

> I have an army of 10 raging bald men full of testosterone who have contacted me and are willing to take over histogen's headquarters in asia.
> 
> Come on guys let's make this happen kinda like vietnam bald men vs. histogen in singapore.


 yeah and they (we) don't even need helmets like in the picture. We just spray paint our bald heads with green paint  :Cool:

----------


## Maradona

> This may be the first time we've ever agreed on anything, Maradona.  Where do I sign, Sarge?


 You guys took it the wrong way and I was exaggerating a bit too but all I am saying is the sooner you get Histogen's treatment the better it will be.

Bald scalps are pretty much incurable in my opinion and I know it's painful to hear it.

This is why I think we need to get off our asses and do something about histogen. Sure our sons will benefit but how about us?

We need to DECLARE WAR on histogen .

Balding men vs. Histogen !!

I don't know how do we sign up maybe spencer or somebody can contact the doctor who did this small study. I think he was a doctor outside the clinical trials of histogen, so this should be reachable.

I am sure this doctor is saving a few of bald asses maybe friends who knows.

We also need to find out how expensive it is to produce this.

----------


## BoSox

> Bald scalps are pretty much incurable in my opinion and I know it's painful to hear it.


 Aderans is coming out with hair cloning, just an FYI.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Aderans is coming out with hair cloning, just an FYI.


 Bitmopost will be coming out too

----------


## BoSox

> Bitmopost will be coming out too


 Will they will even make any money? Their product better show some incredible results with Aderans and Histogen coming out around the same time.

----------


## BoSox

..also, people are saying Bitamopost's results are nothing major. I hope they are wrong.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Will they will even make any money? Their product better show some incredible results with Aderans and Histogen coming out around the same time.


 Probably better then minox.

If so, may as well use that to maintain.

----------


## john2399

> Aderans is coming out with hair cloning, just an FYI.


 I feel like aderans is going to take so long because hair cloning is going to take a long time to perfect. I think histogen will be the answer for now to atleast save us time for a better treatment or even a true cure in aderans or replicel. Histogen is def the answer for now thou and i agree with maradona, we need this now!!!!!!

----------


## Baldy6

> Will they will even make any money? Their product better show some incredible results with Aderans and Histogen coming out around the same time.


 Around what time is that? the year 3007? lol

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I feel like aderans is going to take so long because hair cloning is going to take a long time to perfect. I think histogen will be the answer for now to atleast save us time for a better treatment or even a true cure in aderans or replicel. Histogen is def the answer for now thou and i agree with maradona, we need this now!!!!!!


 Well they have a timeline.

And are nearly finishing phase 2, I am very sure they will come out before histogen.

2015 the latest imo

----------


## john2399

> Well they have a timeline.
> 
> And are nearly finishing phase 2, I am very sure they will come out before histogen.
> 
> 2015 the latest imo


 Histogen always has the potential to come out in asia or somewhere thou. I just don't know if i believe aderans timeline but i hope it is 2015.

----------


## BoSox

You all can officially stop stating that Aderans is going to come out later, they have a timeline.. they have their data, and they have their proof that it works.

It's coming 2014 -15. Accept and get over it.

----------


## Kiwi

> You all can officially stop stating that Aderans is going to come out later, they have a timeline.. they have their data, and they have their proof that it works.
> 
> It's coming 2014 -15. Accept and get over it.


 Good call BoSox.

All that I'll add to this is that the race must be on, with Histogen running a close second, and Replicell way back in third  :Smile:

----------


## john2399

> Good call BoSox.
> 
> All that I'll add to this is that the race must be on, with Histogen running a close second, and Replicell way back in third


 Why are you happy replicel is way back in third....even thou replicel is still in the beginning of their work, they still have the best shot to be the best cure. Histogen is going to be great and i think we all can get histogen treatment with great results until replicel comes out with something that can stop baldness for good.

----------


## Kiwi

> Why are you happy replicel is way back in third....even thou replicel is still in the beginning of their work, they still have the best shot to be the best cure. Histogen is going to be great and i think we all can get histogen treatment with great results until replicel comes out with something that can stop baldness for good.


 Who said I was happy? Maybe in a perfect world Replicel would be first and then Histogen and then Aderans. But right now I don't give a shit.

To be honest I have a bad feeling about Replicel and have a suspicion that they won't be able to make it do what they want it to do. 

In my dream world something capable of arresting my hairloss would be available tomorrow :P

----------


## thechamp

Bitmopost any idea of the relase date

----------


## Pate

> The problem is, what is stopping people who use for their eye lashes to buy the MPB version - given it is cheaper?


 You think they'll care if they get a viable MPB treatment? I doubt it - the market for longer eyelashes is much smaller than the market for MPB!

There is also the fact the MPB treatment, if it works, will probably be significantly higher concentration. Might not even be safe to be putting that stuff on eyelashes due to the known effects of bimatoprost on the eye itself, so they might still get away with marketing them separately.

----------


## PinotQ

Based on the links at the bottom of the post the 2 current Phase II trials will end in July and then the results will be available near the end of 2012.  If results are positive, Allergan will gear up for Phase III immediately so they may be able to begin Phase III in very early 2013. In fact, the quote in the CBS link below suggests that Phase III could start to be geared up well prior to the end of Phase II.......i.e. as soon as they "start getting any positive feedback".  But as Scott Whitcup (head of R&D) says in the transcript, two Phase III trials will be required.  What is not addressed is whether those trials can run concurrently, although I see no reason why they can't as I have read about other companies running trials concurrently.  Phase II began in June of 2011 and will end in July 2012 so you would have to estimate at least a year for Phase III.  If the two Phase III trials ran concurrently and began in early 2013, it is conceivable that Phase III could be completed in early 2014.  Assuming negligible side effects on a par with what they had w/ Latisse which has already been approved, you could probably expect quick approval from the FDA so I would say mid to late 2014 at best or 2015 is a reasonable possibility. 

I am not sure what the possible side effects of a prostaglandin analog are in general but I would guess that one of the big safety issues would concern whether when going from 1 drop on each eyelid to coverage of the entire scalp, there might be a much greater chance of a toxic level of systemic absorption.  However, it appears that "Bimatoprost undergoes minimal systemic absorption" http://www.drugs.com/pregnancy/bimat...phthalmic.html and since Allergan has already cleared Phase I, this issue may not turn out to be a problem.   

*ALLERGAN EARNINGS CALL Transcript (August 2011):* Larry, clearly, this is a program that we've optimally resourced, given the huge market potential. So the Phase I was just testing the overall formulation, making sure that it was stable, making sure that it was tolerated. So we probably have some of the Phase I data at R&D Day. But it's really the Phase II data that will be proof of concept. That depending on enrollment and feedback probably won't be available till end of sort of, I'd say, latter part of next year. Clearly, we'll be monitoring this and as we start getting any positive feedback, we'll gear up, so that once we get the proof of concept data, we could go to Phase III right away. The good news is that the FDA regulatory pathway is well delineated as there are other products that have been approved. The negative is it's not quick. You've got to go through all of the steps that FDA requires and that will be 2 Phase III trials following a proof of concept study. And as you pointed out, we see a potential market, not only for male-pattern baldness which is a huge market, but the animal data suggests that for female hair thinning, that could be a very beneficial product as well.

See also http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-42849516/allergans-potential-baldness-cure-clears-one-hurdle-heads-for-the-hard-part/ suggesting an earlier possible release date in 2013 or 2014.

----------


## inkt2002

Does anyone know if Histogen is suppose to work on DUPA?

----------


## Jcm800

> Does anyone know if Histogen is suppose to work on DUPA?


 Dupa means arse in Polish lol.

----------


## 2020

> Dupa means arse in Polish lol.


 arse means ass in American  :Cool: 

yeah it should work for DUPA, why wouldn't it?

----------


## tizzle

Im confused, do you want to use histogens HSC to grow a hairy ass?  :Big Grin:

----------


## john2399

What ever happened to that interview we were going to get?

----------


## Kiwi

> What ever happened to that interview we were going to get?


 Good point. Deserves a thread of its own though!!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Good point. Deserves a thread of its own though!!


 http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1

Phase 2 should end in December 2012




> Further study details as provided by Histogen:
> 
> Primary Outcome Measures:
> Systemic safety measures will be assessed by measuring vital signs, adverse experiences, laboratory tests (hematology, clinical chemistry and urinalysis)and immunological response (anti-drug antibodies) [ Time Frame: Clinically significant change from screening visit to Week 12 ] [ Designated as safety issue: Yes ]
> Non-vellus hair counts [ Time Frame: Change from Baseline to week 12 in treatment areas ] [ Designated as safety issue: No ]
> 
> Secondary Outcome Measures:
> Hair Thickness Density [ Time Frame: Change from Baseline to week 48 in treatment areas ] [ Designated as safety issue: No ]
> Local safety measures will be assessed by clinical exam of treatment areas and monitoring adverse events [ Time Frame: Clinically significant change from Screening visit to Week 48 ] [ Designated as safety issue: Yes ]
> ...

----------


## Artista

Im looking into it..a possible intermediate treatment til the long term regenerative treatments arrive.

----------


## 534623

> *Histogen's HSC study showed a statistically significant increase in the number of terminal hairs and hair thickness at 12 weeks.* At the five month timepoint there was a decrease in hairs in a number of patients, but a significant increase again at 12 months, with the number of new hairs again reaching statistical significance at one year. There were approximately 25 new hairs per 0.1cc injection and the treatment effect  was seen within 2mm of the injection site.
> 
> The HSC works by stimulating stem cells in the dermal papilla of the hair follicle to grow new hairs. It also seems that stem cells in the scalp can be stimulated to grow into new hair follicles. This has been shown to be possible in the mouse model using the components that are part of HSC and so Histogen's trial really substantiates in patients with male pattern baldness what has been shown to be possible in mice for the past few years. 
> 
> Doc Z


 Tomorrow, Friday, October 19, 2012 (10:18AM-10:30AM),

Dr. Gail Naughton is going to present the following topic at the currently running ISHRS meeting:

Scalp Injection of Active Embryonic-like Cell-secreted Proteins and Growth Factors

Recently, we had a small discussion (in another context) about her presented and finally published HSC results/data during the SID Annual Meeting:

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf

Anyway 



I think the presented data during the SID meeting *needs CLARIFICATION*, because, as you can see (and review) yourself, the presented data simply *DONT* reflect the reality! 

Hopefully (maybe?) Dr. Ziering can chime in here to answer as well ...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## The Alchemist

> Tomorrow, Friday, October 19, 2012 (10:18AM-10:30AM),
> 
> Dr. Gail Naughton is going to present the following topic at the currently running ISHRS meeting:
> 
> Scalp Injection of Active Embryonic-like Cell-secreted Proteins and Growth Factors
> 
> Recently, we had a small discussion (in another context) about her presented and finally published HSC results/data during the SID Annual Meeting:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf
> ...


 WTF is this?  You throw a bunch of random circles around some of the hairs and then declare the analysis no good? You're a joke.  Take your unscientific analysis and go back hairsite, Ironman.

----------


## clarence

> WTF is this?  You throw a bunch of random circles around some of the hairs and then declare the analysis no good? You're a joke.  Take your unscientific analysis and go back hairsite, Ironman.


 What do you mean random? The only random about it is that he's being a bit selective about the distinctions, for example, 9, 28, and 56 appear to have improved while 18, 37, and 38 appear to have weakened, even though all of these targets were marked as "unchanged". Also, his analysis doesn't take into account hairs per follicle; we see, for instance, that 55 has progressed from slick bald to 2 hairs, while 41 has still hair growing out of it albeit one less than before. Some hairs have even had considerable change while not even having circles around them (ie. the two hair follicle between 34 and 35 has thinned).

But in the end, that's just hair-splitting; I don't see what the improvement is in s2018, and we are confused as to what Histogen wants to prove by publishing such an image, or how the measurements relate to the image. Oh well, I think I'm getting a hair transplant!

----------


## hellouser

> The only random about it is that he's being a bit selective about the distinctions, for example, 9, 28, and 56 appear to have improved while 18, 37, and 38 appear to have weakened, even though all of these targets were marked as "unchanged".


 Perhaps it has something to do with growth stages for those hairs that have weakened? As in, maybe those hair recently shed and are in the early stages of growing back?

Just throwing it out there, although it is an interesting observation that some weakened... but if the overall effect is greater thickness, density but especially regrowth, it shouldnt matter TOO much.

----------


## The Alchemist

> What do you mean random? The only random about it is that he's being a bit selective about the distinctions, for example, 9, 28, and 56 appear to have improved while 18, 37, and 38 appear to have weakened, even though all of these targets were marked as "unchanged". Also, his analysis doesn't take into account hairs per follicle; we see, for instance, that 55 has progressed from slick bald to 2 hairs, while 41 has still hair growing out of it albeit one less than before. Some hairs have even had considerable change while not even having circles around them (ie. the two hair follicle between 34 and 35 has thinned).
> 
> But in the end, that's just hair-splitting; I don't see what the improvement is in s2018, and we are confused as to what Histogen wants to prove by publishing such an image, or how the measurements relate to the image. Oh well, I think I'm getting a hair transplant!


 
Look at the area surronding circle 13, it looks nothing like the early photo.

There is a follicle between 20 and 21 that he didn't even bother to count 
which is substantially thicker than before.

9 is thicker yet buttmunch counted it as unchanged

19 appears entirely different

To the left of 26 there are 3 follicles that have all increased dramatically in size and were completely ignored.

Over circle 25 there are hairs that are substantially larger which he didn't bother to count.

There are hairs to the upper left of circle 76 which are much larger

Etc.. Etc.. Etc..

His analysis is piss poor.

----------


## 534623

> Some hairs have even had considerable change while not even having circles around them (ie. the two hair follicle between 34 and 35 has thinned).


 Correct. I couldn't make circles around ALL follicular units, because ...




> What’s going on here?  It’s certainly not classic androgenic alopecia where the affects are more diffuse.  *One does not see something like this in an area affected by androgenic alopecia.*


 That means, the observation area (treated area) has too dense hair in BOTH pics in general - something one indeed does not see like this "in an area affected by androgenetic alopecia". In fact, the pics just show a *completely normal circulating* (anagen-catagen-telogen-anagen etc) observation area - nothing more nothing less!

And even there is a way to encircle ALL follicular units (you guys can do this anyhow and use the existing circles and numbers as orientation!) - you simply *CAN'T* see "statistically significant improvement". I mean, idiots can always see improvement if they WANT (or need) to see "improvement".

----------


## maxhair

Histogen photos always look a bit less impressive than the regrowth percentage stats they're claiming, and when you consider they're only showing the best photos, I think we're in for a disappointing reality check if it does ever come to market. Let's hope two or more of these new treatments are compoundable with each other or with existing treatments.

----------


## 2020

> Histogen photos always look as bit less impressive than the regrowth percentage stats they're claiming, and when you consider they're only showing the best photos, I think we're in for a disappointing reality check if it does ever come to market. Let's hope two or more of these new treatments are compoundable with each other or with existing treatments.


 That's because their true results are documented here:
http://jddonline.com/articles/dermatology/1650

20% density increase versus 74% that they list on their main page. They always try to show of their BEST result. 20% is still pretty good for just a couple injections.

They need to release the pictures from their independent studies!

----------


## JJacobs152

Seems like Histogen has had good results. They just released their latest press release article online. However, they're results are best seen between the age groups of 40-59.





> Histogen Announces Initial Results from Phase I/II Clinical Trial of HSC
> Data shows significant efficacy at all time points and all treated hair loss regions
> SAN DIEGO, October 19, 2012 - Histogen, Inc., a regenerative medicine company developing innovative therapies based on the products of cells grown under simulated embryonic conditions, will present preliminary data from the ongoing clinical trial of its Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC) today at the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery (ISHRS) Annual Meeting. Statistically significant improvement was seen across all targeted hair growth parameters in this Phase I/II clinical trial, with an 86% responder rate.
> The double-blind Phase I/II clinical trial was undertaken to further examine the safety and efficacy of intradermal injections of HSC in 56 men with androgenetic alopecia. In addition to other safety outcome measures, clinical evaluation of blood serum chemistry, hematology and urinalysis showed no indication of toxicity over 12 weeks. The treatment was well-tolerated and no study-related adverse events have been reported.
> 
> *In this second clinical trial of HSC, which was designed with an additional treatment timepoint, the increase in total hair count was 46.5% above that seen in the pilot HSC trial at 12 weeks.* Statistical significance was noted in all efficacy endpoints, which include increases in total hair count (p=0.0013), terminal hairs (p=0.0135), and hair thickness (p=0.026). A significant increase in vellus hair count (p=0.033) *was seen for the first time, supporting the hypothesis that the HSC treatment rescues dying follicles, in addition to converting vellus to terminal hairs and increasing the number of hairs per follicle.* Statistical significance continued to be seen at the 24 week time point.
> 
> "We are excited that HSC has not only continued to show unprecedented results, but that the addition of a second treatment time point in the Phase I/II clinical trial has resulted in even greater hair growth than the pilot study," said Gail K. Naughton, Ph.D., Histogen CEO and Chairman of the Board. "Particularly compelling is the growth seen in more difficult types and stages of hair loss. Without limitations to treatment area, age or stage of balding, HSC has the potential to expand the hair restoration market by offering a successful option to those that currently have none."
> 
> ...

----------


## 534623

> Seems like Histogen has had good results. They just released their latest press release article online. However, *they're results are best seen between the age groups of 40-59*.


 This is the original source/press release:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/10/prweb10032346.htm

Female result (before/after):
http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/10...0-%2019wks.jpg

Male result (before/after):
http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/10...20-%2024wk.jpg

Convincing? Impressed? Let me know ...

The male patient -I think- is more than 40 years. Does it mean a young patient will see -0 result?

----------


## JJacobs152

> This is the original source/press release:
> 
> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/10/prweb10032346.htm
> 
> Female result (before/after):
> http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/10...0-%2019wks.jpg
> 
> Male result (before/after):
> http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/10...20-%2024wk.jpg
> ...


 You fail to comprehend that Histogen's method is a completely new and innovative method of helping BOTH sexes with andro. alopecia. An injection form of medium, that hasn't showed any side effects as of yet. Lets run through history real quick and see what the current treatments and their side effects are, shall we?

Minoxidil - potent vasodilator that can make you hypotensive, causing tachycardia, and other array of symptoms.
Finasteride - people have talked about ED, to the point where they've fallen into depression. 
RU - nothing about this can even be said, since there is hardly any data. 

I'm not sure, but can females with andro aloopecia take fin - no they can't, especially if they plan on having children, since the drug is a teratogen. 

I'd say the results from those pictures is pretty good, taking into consideration what is currently available on the market. Not sure why you're trying to bash their results. 

Atleast, unlike a certain HT physician overseas, they're providing well documented pictures, protocols, and willing to let the rest of the world see their plans and future outlook on hair "regeneration".

----------


## rdawg

This is great news IMO, a true help to those with moderate hairloss including in the temples. So far(not sure if they may tinker with it to make it better) it seems perfect for those in the NW1-4 range.

I suppose this means Phase III is going to be approved? 

I do have to ask how long these hairs last though? do they just get lost without something like Fin being used?

quite excited to see a product that actually causes noticeable growth, even if it's not a fullout cure, combining this with Minoxidil+Fin may get a NW3-4 back to a NW1-2.

A little glimmer of hope came out today, I'll be getting some of my hair back with this stuff within a few years!

----------


## The Alchemist

> I'd say the results from those pictures is pretty good, taking into consideration what is currently available on the market. *Not sure why you're trying to bash their results.* 
> 
> Atleast, unlike a certain HT physician overseas, they're providing well documented pictures, protocols, and willing to let the rest of the world see their plans and future outlook on hair "regeneration".


 Think you answered your own question here.  Ironman's posting frequency peaks whenever news comes out that indicates the future of his employers business may not be in such great shape.  With results like Histogen just presented, i expect his posting to reach a fevered pitch and level of hysteria that hasn't been seen before. 

A mean of 40% new terminals is phenomenal!  And with a response rate of nearly 90%.  That is great news!

----------


## UK_

Some people know me as a huge sceptic.

However, I have never heard a legitimate company in 20 years of hair loss research make a statement like this that I actually believed:




> *"Importantly, the efficacy of HSC is not limited by hair loss region. The Phase I/II clinical trial has shown noted new hair growth in subjects treated in all regions of the scalp, including temporal recession, mid-scalp and vertex. Subjects receiving HSC in the temporal recession, which is known to be more difficult to treat than other areas of hair loss, saw marked improvement in terminal hair count, with a mean increase of 22.6&#37; at 12 weeks and 25.2% at the 24 week time point."*


 I remember a few months ago we were all wondering if Histogen (HSC) would even work in the temporal regions - and there we have it, our first clinical study showing a treatment being effective on the most difficult area to treat... the temples!!

----------


## Ted

I got very disappointed from the pics.
The first pic of the woman are overexposed probably taken with a flash. In the same lightning conditions the hair would probably look exactly the same.

The first pic of the man have his hairs brushed to the sides to reveal the thin areas, whereas in the second pic the hair is brushed to cover the thin areas.

I really high hope for Histogen but these pics have made me loose all trust in them.
This ****ing industry stinks!

Edit. The angels are also different in the pics which makes the hair look thicker

----------


## Artista

@JJacobs152  Thank you for posting this my friend

----------


## The Alchemist

> Some people know me as a huge sceptic.
> 
> However, I have never heard a legitimate company in 20 years of hair loss research make a statement like this that I actually believed:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember a few months ago we were all wondering if Histogen (HSC) would even work in the temporal regions - and there we have it, our first clinical study showing a treatment being effective on the most difficult area to treat... the temples!!


 Agreed - the temples are the first to go.  Most balding men lose them in their 20s.  So those patients in this study being at least 40 yrs of age and getting growth in an area have most likely been skin bald in that area for at least a decade, maybe more.  That takes a sledge hammer to the theory of follicles reaching a "point of no return", which was being tossed around on the various forums.

Hopefully they can push this through and get it released into Asian markets early.

----------


## rdawg

> I got very disappointed from the pics.
> The first pic of the woman are overexposed probably taken with a flash. In the same lightning conditions the hair would probably look exactly the same.
> 
> The first pic of the man have his hairs brushed to the sides to reveal the thin areas, whereas in the second pic the hair is brushed to cover the thin areas.
> 
> I had really high hope for Histogen but these pics have made me loose all trust in them.
> This ****ing industry stinks!


 I dont know what you're looking at but the mans hair is clearly thicker and he definitely has more hair. That is not simply 'brushing' it to cover up spots.

dont expect the first actual growth product to give you a full head of hair within a few months, the fact that this gives NOTICEABLE growth at all is fantastic, there's nothing on the market it like it. Especially in the temple region.

Is this gonna help a NW7? I'm not sure, what happens if they repeat the dose again at one year? what if they did it monthly? questions that could be answered. Maybe it gets even better as more time goes by?

either way, perfect as is for moderate hairloss sufferers.

----------


## Ted

If you believe in the numbers you should also believe in trx2's numbers that claim 50&#37; (if I remember correct) increase after 18 months.

----------


## rdawg

> Agreed - the temples are the first to go.  Most balding men lose them in their 20s.  So those patients in this study being at least 40 yrs of age and getting growth in an area that has most likely been bald for at least a decade, maybe more.  That takes a sledge hammer to the theory of follicles reaching a "point of no return", which was a theory being tossed around on the various forums.
> 
> Hopefully they can push this through and get it released into Asian markets early.


 Well I assume Phase III begins right away in january correct? which would mean a Jan 2014 finish, late 2014 production/release and approval for the Asian markets.

But couldnt they simultaneously do the NA market as well to get it approved slightly earlier say by 2015?

----------


## The Alchemist

> If you believe in the numbers you should also believe in trx2's numbers that claim 50% (if I remember correct) increase after 18 months.


 No we should not.  TRX is a joke and their trials were done under no jurisdiction other than Thomas Whitfields.  To compare the two is ludicrous.

----------


## Ted

> I dont know what you're looking at but the mans hair is clearly thicker and he definitely has more hair. That is not simply 'brushing' it to cover up spots.
> 
> dont expect the first actual growth product to give you a full head of hair within a few months, the fact that this gives NOTICEABLE growth at all is fantastic, there's nothing on the market it like it. Especially in the temple region.
> 
> Is this gonna help a NW7? I'm not sure, what happens if they repeat the dose again at one year? what if they did it monthly? questions that could be answered. Maybe it gets even better as more time goes by?
> 
> either way, perfect as is for moderate hairloss sufferers.


 Well I dont see any improvements at all in the mans pics. I really want to but I dont. After another look I see that they also made the after pic a bit darker (or something similar) to make the hair look thicker. This is ****ing bogus pics!!
Im not saying histogen wont work, just that these pics got me really disappointed!!

----------


## Ted

> No we should not.  TRX is a joke and their trials were done under no jurisdiction other than Thomas Whitfields.  To compare the two is ludicrous.


 Can you give us some source for this? They are clinical trials and I thought they had to be done with outside jurisdiction.

I have used trx2 for 1.5 years and it has saved my hair better than finasteride did. No regrowth though. Only thing I got regrowth from was minoxidil and that was in the temples.

----------


## JJacobs152

> I got very disappointed from the pics.
> The first pic of the woman are overexposed probably taken with a flash. In the same lightning conditions the hair would probably look exactly the same.
> 
> The first pic of the man have his hairs brushed to the sides to reveal the thin areas, whereas in the second pic the hair is brushed to cover the thin areas.
> 
> I really high hope for Histogen but these pics have made me loose all trust in them.
> This ****ing industry stinks!
> 
> Edit. The angels are also different in the pics which makes the hair look thicker


 Lets dissect this a bit. Before anybody thinks I'm somebody that's getting paid by Histogen, or a worker for Histogen, can look up my previous posts. You can see I'm a fairly avid poster on the forum here. 

You mention the female hair and flash in the picture. Yes, that is true, but your logic is reversed. If you look on H&W's website on how to take proper pictures to see improvements or change in hair, they mention NOT to use flash, as flash actually makes the hair look more dense/full, giving a false appearance. Additionally, if you look at the female's before pic - you can see a characteristic dumbbell shaped pattern of hair loss. Starting from the top the diameter is large, constricts towards the middle, and finally the diameter increases towards the bottom of the picture. In the after picture, you see a consistent constricted area of loss, only indicating - the treatment worked on the two larger diameter areas. Additionally, to make my argument even stronger, you can see in the before picture there are two faint black circles demarcating the areas with the increased diameter of hair loss.

As for your argument on the male individual - You are wrong again. Look at the wavy distinctive hair pattern running from his forehead to the back of his head. All the strands are running in a consistent parallel fashion. Where on God's green planet, do you see his hair combed over to show the thinning, or combed over to cover the thinning?  :Confused:

----------


## UK_

> Can you give us some source for this? They are clinical trials and I thought they had to be done with outside jurisdiction.
> 
> I have used trx2 for 1.5 years and it has saved my hair better than finasteride did. On regrowth though. Only thing I got regrowth from was minoxidil and that was in the temples.


 ****s sake stop boring us with your garbage TRX2 rubbish - all we've heard about all year is TRX2 TRX2 TRX2 - some of us have been waiting all year for this news and you're here trying to compare an actual clinical trial to the work of some phd nut student from Oxford trying to release a vitamin tablet to cure hair loss.

Apples & oranges - wnt proteins/ genetic engineering compared to a compound found in your daily shopping list.  Get out of here troll.

----------


## JJacobs152

Just to make you feel better Ted, there are currently 8-9 active members currently viewing/posting in this thread, AT THIS VERY MOMENT. 8 of those people see changes in the after result pictures which Histogen provided, whereas the 9th person doesn't see any change in the after pictures. I hope you understand the point I'm making behind this post.

----------


## amibald

So this is good news??? My worry is that i'm 18 and by the time I can afford this- 5-6 years- i'll be a baldie!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> So this is good news??? My worry is that i'm 18 and by the time I can afford this- 5-6 years- i'll be a baldie!


 Histogen + Gho + HT.

That is the route your should go down.

----------


## garethbale

I have to say, the picture of the guy is disappointing.  It does look as though in the first pic his hair on top has been combed down over the sides, and in the second pic his hair has been pushed up.

I really hope their numbers are accurate

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> If you believe in the numbers you should also believe in trx2's numbers that claim 50% (if I remember correct) increase after 18 months.


 You can't compare the two.

I dont ever remember TRX2 going through clinical trials and besides:

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf

clear regrowth by histogen

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I have to say, the picture of the guy is disappointing.  It does look as though in the first pic his hair on top has been comped down over the sides, and in the second pic his hair has been pushed up.
> 
> I really hope their numbers are accurate


 I think you and Ted are looking at the wrong thing.

Histogen doesn't seem to regrow hair in bald slick areas, rather it is just REALLY REALLY good at thickening up thinning hair.

Which in both photos is evident.

Sadly, I dont think this treatment will work on a NW7.

Ironically, I find it funny how histogen is so fast with their progress, whereas aderans isnt.

----------


## Ted

> Lets dissect this a bit. Before anybody thinks I'm somebody that's getting paid by Histogen, or a worker for Histogen, can look up my previous posts. You can see I'm a fairly avid poster on the forum here. 
> 
> You mention the female hair and flash in the picture. Yes, that is true, but your logic is reversed. If you look on H&W's website on how to take proper pictures to see improvements or change in hair, they mention NOT to use flash, as flash actually makes the hair look more dense/full, giving a false appearance. Additionally, if you look at the female's before pic - you can see a characteristic dumbbell shaped pattern of hair loss. Starting from the top the diameter is large, constricts towards the middle, and finally the diameter increases towards the bottom of the picture. In the after picture, you see a consistent constricted area of loss, only indicating - the treatment worked on the two larger diameter areas. Additionally, to make my argument even stronger, you can see in the before picture there are two faint black circles demarcating the areas with the increased diameter of hair loss.
> 
> As for your argument on the male individual - You are wrong again. Look at the wavy distinctive hair pattern running from his forehead to the back of his head. All the strands are running in a consistent parallel fashion. Where on God's green planet, do you see his hair combed over to show the thinning, or combed over to cover the thinning?


 If you cant see the difference in hair styling I think your just seeing what you want too see. When I get more time I can circle the hairs for you.

And if you think flash will give a thicker look try to take pics of your on hair and compare.
Even if it somehow gave you a thicker look (never happened to me) why on earth cant Histogen just use the same lightning conditions? This is not professional. 

I hope the subjects will get more hair with time but for now I am very dissapointed

----------


## Ted

> You can't compare the two.
> 
> I dont ever remember TRX2 going through clinical trials and besides:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf
> 
> clear regrowth by histogen


 Yea those results gave me hope thats why I got so disappointed now

----------


## JJacobs152

> If you cant see the difference in hair styling I think your just seeing what you want too see. When I get more time I can circle the hairs for you.
> 
> And if you think flash will give a thicker look try to take pics of your on hair and compare.
> Even if it somehow gave you a thicker look (never happened to me) why on earth cant Histogen just use the same lightning conditions? This is not professional. 
> 
> I hope the subjects will get more hair with time but for now I am very dissapointed

----------


## rdawg

> I think you and Ted are looking at the wrong thing.
> 
> *Histogen doesn't seem to regrow hair in bald slick areas, rather it is just REALLY REALLY good at thickening up thinning hair.*
> 
> Which in both photos is evident.
> 
> Sadly, I dont think this treatment will work on a NW7.
> 
> Ironically, I find it funny how histogen is so fast with their progress, whereas aderans isnt.


 That alone is fantastic though, as well as clear reversal of vellus hairs which isnt guarenteed by any current product.

a guy in the beginning stages of hairloss will be able to halt and reverse it with a product like this(+ maybe fin). 

I'm not sure if it addressed the slick bald spot thing.

----------


## Ted

> 


 You look like a girl

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> That alone is fantastic though, as well as clear reversal of vellus hairs which isnt guarenteed by any current product.
> 
> a guy in the beginning stages of hairloss will be able to halt and reverse it with a product like this(+ maybe fin). 
> 
> I'm not sure if it addressed the slick bald spot thing.


 I agree.

Latisse are going to release their own product soon, so I don't even think you will need to use fin.

If your hair is thinning use latisse the maintain, and or go to histogen for a top up.

Thinning hair takes a while to go slick bald, 6-7 months. My work colleague developed thinning hair in his crown 2 years ago, he still hasn't got a bald spot.

One thing for sure - neither patient LOST hair in the photos. As for maintainence goes, this works.

----------


## 534623

> 


 Is this Dr. Gail Naughton who regularly used her perfectly working "ExCeltrixTM" product?

----------


## JJacobs152

> I agree.
> 
> Latisse are going to release their own product soon, so I don't even think you will need to use fin.
> 
> If your hair is thinning use latisse the maintain, and or go to histogen for a top up.
> 
> Thinning hair takes a while to go slick bald, 6-7 months. My work colleague had thinning hair in his crown 2 years ago, he still hasn't got a bald spot.
> 
> One thing for sure - neither patient LOST hair in the photos. As for maintainence goes, this works.


 Latisse should be somewhat interesting, however I don't think it'll really work. Iirc, latisse is a prostaglandin analog which was originally intended to use for the treatment of glaucoma. Since it's a topical solution, it was noted that eyelashes grew longer and thicker, with the side effect showing retinal pigmentation spots. 

Do eyelashes and hair on our scalp contain the same chemistry, receptors, etc etc for the drug to work - will be interesting to find out.  :Smile:

----------


## JJacobs152

> Is this Dr. Gail Naughton who regularly used her perfectly working "ExCeltrixTM" product?


 Wait, the girl that I posted is a doctor? Link to proof?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Latisse should be somewhat interesting, however I don't think it'll really work. Iirc, latisse is a prostaglandin analog which was originally intended to use for the treatment of glaucoma. Since it's a topical solution, it was noted that eyelashes grew longer and thicker, with the side effect showing retinal pigmentation spots. 
> 
> Do eyelashes and hair on our scalp contain the same chemistry, receptors, etc etc for the drug to work - will be interesting to find out.


 Well at least its in the pipeline.

You boys are too sceptical.

We also have aderans - which tbh, I am not so confident about

----------


## garethbale

> I think you and Ted are looking at the wrong thing.
> 
> Histogen doesn't seem to regrow hair in bald slick areas, rather it is just REALLY REALLY good at thickening up thinning hair.
> 
> Which in both photos is evident.
> 
> Sadly, I dont think this treatment will work on a NW7.
> 
> Ironically, I find it funny how histogen is so fast with their progress, whereas aderans isnt.


 
Well I hope so.  I am a receder, not a diffuser, but it I could bring my temples forward an inch or so that would do.  I am just not convinced by their photos.  Why isn't the lightning the same in each photo?  To me it does look like the hair has been combed down in the first pic. 

I was hoping for much better given the pictures they previously posted.

----------


## JJacobs152

> Well at least its in the pipeline.
> 
> You boys are too sceptical.
> 
> We also have aderans - which tbh, I am not so confident about


 lol, I'm only skeptical because of knowledge about the product from med school.  :Wink: 

Why don't you think Aderans will be successful? I don't know much about them, would like to hear your info about it.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Well I hope so.  I am a receder, not a diffuser, but it I could bring my temples forward an inch or so that would do.  I am just not convinced by their photos.  Why isn't the lightning the same in each photo?  To me it does look like the hair has been combed down in the first pic. 
> 
> I was hoping for much better given the pictures they previously posted.


 http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf

better pdf to be honest.

I am sure histogen will release more news in the coming months.

If you are a receeder, with no thinning elseware. I am sure your hair will hold out by the time it gets released.

Tend to find that diffuse thinners are the one's who lose their hair quickly.

Finally, even if you don't get regrowth with HSC, you are more than likely to maintain your existing hair, which is a good thing if you want to avoid taking fin.

----------


## 534623

> I was hoping for much better given the pictures they previously posted.


 You're right ...


I'm somewhat surprised too, because -interestingly-, they didn't publish their "robust growth" results. Maybe it wasn't their intention anymore to publish normal hair transplant results - who knows ...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## hellouser

> If you cant see the difference in hair styling I think your just seeing what you want too see. When I get more time I can circle the hairs for you.
> 
> And if you think flash will give a thicker look try to take pics of your on hair and compare.
> Even if it somehow gave you a thicker look (never happened to me) why on earth cant Histogen just use the same lightning conditions? This is not professional. 
> 
> I hope the subjects will get more hair with time but for now I am very dissapointed


 The photography argument is actually a valid point and an important one as well.  I'll chime in on this since I'm a photographer:

Basically we all want accurate results and an accurate showing of those results. The problem with releasing photographs is that its basically impossible to have the same exact same lighting conditions, the exact same angle, the exact same position of the head, the exact same hair style, length, lens focal length, aperture, etc. The photographs are bound to be at least somewhat different between sessions. And the amount of light DOES affect the hair and possibility to see the scalp. You shine light through hair thats bright enough and you'll see skin, which is why controlled lighting is important.

I will say though, that there definitely is noticeable improvement with Histogen although to be honest I am somewhat disappointed with the amount, I've seen better results with Minox/RU58841 regimens but if Histogen becomes available you can be sure they'll have my money. I'll take any improvement at this point (I'm lucky because I've only thinned out in the crown and lost my temples, so there are some options for me but I feel for those in higher norwood scales).

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> lol, I'm only skeptical because of knowledge about the product from med school. 
> 
> Why don't you think Aderans will be successful? I don't know much about them, would like to hear your info about it.


 They have been stuck in phase 2 for many years, missing deadlines.

They have a release date in 2014, but I am sceptical that they will make it.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> You're right ...
> 
> 
> I'm somewhat surprised too, because -interestingly-, they didn't publish their "robust growth" results. Maybe it wasn't their intention anymore to publish normal hair transplant results - who knows ...


 There is clear regrowth at the temples.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> The photography argument is actually a valid point and an important one as well.  I'll chime in on this since I'm a photographer:
> 
> Basically we all want accurate results and an accurate showing of those results. The problem with releasing photographs is that its basically impossible to have the same exact same lighting conditions, the exact same angle, the exact same position of the head, the exact same hair style, length, lens focal length, aperture, etc. The photographs are bound to be at least somewhat different between sessions. And the amount of light DOES affect the hair and possibility to see the scalp. You shine light through hair thats bright enough and you'll see skin, which is why controlled lighting is important.
> 
> I will say though, that there definitely is noticeable improvement with Histogen although to be honest I am somewhat disappointed with the amount, I've seen better results with Minox/RU58841 regimens but if Histogen becomes available you can be sure they'll have my money. I'll take any improvement at this point (I'm lucky because I've only thinned out in the crown and lost my temples, so there are some options for me but I feel for those in higher norwood scales).


 You know what - if you guys are going to criticise like this.

Why don't you all go and create your own start up and solve the problem of hairloss.

Histogen are doing well (especially with the robust growth pdf), give them time to release more information.

----------


## 534623

> The problem with releasing photographs is that its basically impossible to have the same exact same *lighting conditions*, the exact same angle, the exact same position of the head, the exact same hair style, length, lens focal length, aperture, etc. The photographs are bound to be at least somewhat different between sessions. And the amount of light DOES affect the hair and possibility to see the scalp. You shine light through hair thats bright enough and you'll see skin, which is why controlled lighting is important.


 Exact same lightning conditions, with or without using flash, different angles...
... it really *doesn't matter* - if you do it RIGHT ...


And there exists another problem - namely, the problem  from a scientific point of view ...

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Exact same lightning conditions, with or without using flash...
> ... it really *doesn't matter* - if you do it RIGHT ...
> 
> 
> And there exists another problem - namely, the problem  from a scientific point of view ...


 You are possibly one of the most cynical posters on BTT. Even if they had release a picture with a full set of hair, you will find something to criticise.

----------


## 534623

> You are possibly one of the most cynical posters on BTT. Even if they had release a picture with a full set of hair, you will find something to criticise.


 Not at all!


Sometimes I find such pic releases extremely amusing.

@krewel - great work!

----------


## JJacobs152

> I will say though, that there definitely is noticeable improvement with Histogen although to be honest I am somewhat disappointed with the amount, *I've seen better results with Minox/RU58841 regimens* but if Histogen becomes available you can be sure they'll have my money. I'll take any improvement at this point (I'm lucky because I've only thinned out in the crown and lost my temples, so there are some options for me but I feel for those in higher norwood scales).


 Do you have a link to back this up? I'm on the fence of purchasing the RU compound, but want to see the improvements. I know that one irish lad on the other forum had great results, but that's the only noted individual that I've seen thus far.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Not at all!
> 
> 
> Sometimes I find such pic releases extremely amusing.
> 
> @krewel - great work!


 I think you boys need to be realistic.

Even if it doesn't regrow a full set of hair straight away, over time it will be tweeked and improved.

The first step for them is to get something on the market, that somewhat works.

----------


## 534623

> The first step for them is to get something on the market, that *somewhat* works.


 Exactly, like Fin and Minox - and the latter is the reason why you're still here ...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## new bubble

> I think you boys need to be realistic.
> 
> Even if it doesn't regrow a full set of hair straight away, over time it will be tweeked and improved.
> 
> The first step for them is to get something on the market, that somewhat works.


 absolutely right

----------


## hellouser

> You know what - if you guys are going to criticise like this.
> 
> Why don't you all go and create your own start up and solve the problem of hairloss.
> 
> Histogen are doing well (especially with the robust growth pdf), give them time to release more information.


 Constructive criticism is fair and warranted.However it was NOT the point of my comment, I provided some facts about photography that was supposed to clear up any illegitimate criticisms towards Histogen. Yes, I did say the results were disappointing (this is in reference to the recent photos provided) and it holds true because the regrowth isn't substantial enough to give GREAT thickness which is what all of us are expecting, however it is substantial enough to notice a clear visible difference. I even went on to say I would pay for a Histogen procedure regardless.

Telling me I should create my own start up is rather insulting to the reply I gave, I was being *very* objective.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Constructive criticism is fair and warranted.However it was NOT the point of my comment, I provided some facts about photography that was supposed to clear up any illegitimate criticisms towards Histogen. Yes, I did say the results were disappointing (this is in reference to the recent photos provided) and it holds true because the regrowth isn't substantial enough to give GREAT thickness which is what all of us are expecting, however it is substantial enough to notice a clear visible difference. I even went on to say I would pay for a Histogen procedure regardless.
> 
> Telling me I should create my own start up is rather insulting to the reply I gave, I was being *very* objective.


 It wasn't directed at you, sorry.

It is just every time I read a thread on a forthcoming treatment, may it be aderans, histogen, gho etc etc

You always get someone criticising it to shit, sure, it is fair enough if they have released v poor results. But, even when they release good results, they are still criticised to SHIT.

Even before this update, you had that clown iron man, taking digs at HSC. Like if he could do any better.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Exactly, like Fin and Minox - and the latter is the reason why you're still here ...


 I class neither fin or minox as non-viable treatment options.

Fin - messing with my hormones. You have gotta be kidding me.

Even if it does work, what happens after YEARS of changing your hormonal balance?

Minox - I am on the fence. At the same time I have read too many horror stories of guys starting it, shedding like shit and losing hair. I dont even think you can reliably maintain on it.

This is why I am watching these new treatments closely. I want something that works that is safe and effective.

As gail rightly said only 7&#37; treat their hairloss, and this is why.

----------


## hellouser

> Do you have a link to back this up? I'm on the fence of purchasing the RU compound, but want to see the improvements. I know that one irish lad on the other forum had great results, but that's the only noted individual that I've seen thus far.


 Irishpride86 on ************ is an example of some ridiculous results.

http://www.*****************/interact...U58841-NOW-FIN

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Irishpride86 on ************ is an example of some ridiculous results.
> 
> http://www.*****************/interact...U58841-NOW-FIN


 The problem with RU, is that if you travel a lot. It is not a viable treatment option.

----------


## hellouser

> I class neither fin or minox as viable treatment options.
> 
> Fin - messing with my hormones. You have gotta be kidding me.
> 
> Even if it does work, what happens after YEARS of changing your hormonal balance?
> 
> Minox - I am on the fence. At the same time I have read too many horror stories of guys starting it, shedding like shit and losing hair. I dont even think you can reliably maintain on it.
> 
> This is why I am watching these new treatments closely. I want something that works that is safe and effective.
> ...


 Doubt it. I would bet one of my testicles and say that only 7% treat their hairloss for other more obvious reasons.

1) Hairloss isn't a night and day thing, it slowly creeps up before an individual notices to take action.

2) A lot of men have no idea that there are solutions to treat hairloss... and thats the big one. 2 years ago I had no idea of products such as minoxidil, finasteride, etc. I only once heard about hair transplants about a decade ago as well and didn't think much of it. Fast forward to today and I'm a great example of a guy that noticed his hairline being receded before being to late to stop it going past NW1.

You'll see that 7% number jump way higher if you educated men on the topic.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Doubt it. I would bet one of my testicles and say that only 7% treat their hairloss for other more obvious reasons.
> 
> 1) Hairloss isn't a night and day thing, it slowly creeps up before an individual notices to take action.
> 
> 2) A lot of men have no idea that there are solutions to treat hairloss... and thats the big one. 2 years ago I had no idea of products such as minoxidil, finasteride, etc. I only once heard about hair transplants about a decade ago as well and didn't think much of it. Fast forward to today and I'm a great example of a guy that noticed his hairline being receded before being to late to stop it going past NW1.
> 
> You'll see that 7% number jump way higher if you educated men on the topic.


 
Sure - that too.

But I am an example of someone who knows about treatment options that is refusing to touch fin.

And with all the bad press against fin, it has given me more of a reason to not touch it.

----------


## hellouser

> The problem with RU, is that if you travel a lot. It is not a viable treatment option.


 I know this first hand, I went to europe for 2 months this year and had to take my RU58841 with me along with two small bottles of isopropanol (99%) and polypropylene glycol. RU should last for at least a couple days before going bad when mixed in the solution. I was lucky because I was with family and friends but kept my main RU package in a freezer and took smaller portions premixed with me to wherever I was going and applied on the spot before bed.

Yes its a hassle, but realistically, how often does one travel to render RU an illegitimate option? That is of course you don't have a job like being a flight attendant or something, lol.

----------


## hellouser

> Sure - that too.
> 
> But I am an example of someone who knows about treatment options that is refusing to touch fin.
> 
> And with all the bad press against fin, it has given me more of a reason to not touch it.


 I'm in the same boat, I will not *ever* touch Finasteride. I'd rather go bald than limp or permanently limp.

If I were you, I'd give RU58841 a go with Minox despite your worries. I've been on Minox for just over a year and my hair density in my crown has definitely improved. I'm still working on my hairline though, I'm on RU as well and only about a month ago have I bumped up my dosage to 100mg every day before bed. I've already noticed a ton of vellus hairs in my temples, I'm hoping they eventually turn terminal.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I know this first hand, I went to europe for 2 months this year and had to take my RU58841 with me along with two small bottles of isopropanol (99&#37 and polypropylene glycol. RU should last for at least a couple days before going bad when mixed in the solution. I was lucky because I was with family and friends but kept my main RU package in a freezer and took smaller portions premixed with me to wherever I was going and applied on the spot before bed.
> 
> Yes its a hassle, but realistically, how often does one travel to render RU an illegitimate option? That is of course you don't have a job like being a flight attendant or something, lol.


 What if you have a job that requires you to travel a lot - consultant?

What if you plan to go on a roadtrip with friends/gf etc Many in their 20s do this.

What if you are going away for camping for a week.

There are so many scenarios.

RU is an all around pain in the ass.

----------


## UK_

Yep Tin_Man was talking out of his ass 2 years ago.  "wnt ligands wont work" hahaha stupid tin man.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Yep Tin_Man was talking out of his ass 2 years ago.  "wnt ligands wont work" hahaha stupid tin man.


 I remember that.

----------


## UK_

The thing im most... utterly shocked about is the fact that they improved TERMINAL hair count in the temporal regions... I mean even if you dosed up on 5mg of Fin and applied 12.5&#37; minox twice a day everyday for a year you wouldnt even see a few vellus hairs - 

Histogen however were able to increase TERMINAL hair count in the temporal regions by 25%!!!

And this was what... after one/two doses spread over 24 weeks?  LOL incredible.

I think these were the kind of results/figures we wanted to hear from Replicel back in April lol.  Does anyone else agree/disagree with that?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> The thing im most... utterly shocked about is the fact that they improved TERMINAL hair count in the temporal regions... I mean even if you dosed up on 5mg of Fin and applied 12.5% minox twice a day everyday for a year you wouldnt even see a few vellus hairs - 
> 
> Histogen however were able to increase TERMINAL hair count in the temporal regions by 25%!!!
> 
> And this was what... after one/two doses spread over 24 weeks?  LOL incredible.
> 
> I think these were the kind of results/figures we wanted to hear from Replicel back in April lol.  Does anyone else agree/disagree with that?


 even if we did people would still bitch

----------


## garethbale

> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf
> 
> better pdf to be honest.
> 
> I am sure histogen will release more news in the coming months.
> 
> If you are a receeder, with no thinning elseware. I am sure your hair will hold out by the time it gets released.
> 
> Tend to find that diffuse thinners are the one's who lose their hair quickly.
> ...


 
Yeah my hair is strong on top, no loo at all.  And I have receded quite slowly, but I though Histogen could only regrow new hair, i.e. not keep current hair?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Yeah my hair is strong on top, no loo at all.  And I have receded quite slowly, but I though Histogen could only regrow new hair, i.e. not keep current hair?


 Both.

Look at the picture they released , the guy has clearly maintained.

----------


## JJJJrS

The press release sounds great but I need to see more pictures before I'm convinced. If so many responded positively to the treatment, then they should be able to provide plenty of pics soon.

The pictures that were posted on this thread are hard to evaluate. For example, for the male, the lighting is much stronger in the before picture than the after picture. Strong lighting will make a crown appear thinner. The female one is more consistent, but the quality isn't the greatest and it's a bit dark. They both seem to show improvement but I'd like to see more and hopefully the next set of pictures they present will be of much better quality.

----------


## 534623

> Yep Tin_Man was talking out of his ass 2 years ago.  "wnt ligands wont work" hahaha stupid tin man.


 What? You call guys like Dr. George Cotsarelis "Tin_Man" who recognised ...




> This suggests that these Wnt-overexpressing mice were already
> predisposed to growing more hair. Thus, Cotsarelis' recognition
> that *"... to date there has been no evidence that
> extracellular Wnt ligands can promote actual hair follicle neogenesis in
> adult skin"*(Ito et al. 2007, Nature 447:316-321 , at p. 319) remains correct.


 ?? Lots of other scientist said this (quote) - because they recognised the same. That's the reason why they say "remains correct".

But you trust NUMBERS written in an article published on "PR web" ???

Let me tell you why such companies like Histogen are forced to publish NUMBERS in such articles ...

And YEAH, Cotsarelis is still right - or did YOU see anywhere hair follicle neogenesis in adult skin due to Wnt ligands?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Everything what you could see so far are just NUMBERS in an PR article which nobody can't (should be able to) interpret. And yeah, everything they know is that the NUMBERS should be appear big - to convince all the extreme clever guys like you ...  :Big Grin:

----------


## 2020

The results are pathetic. What was the point of Phase II really? What will they try doing at Phase III? Those people are incompetent and nothing will ever pan out from this. I'm out...

----------


## Breaking Bald

> The results are pathetic. What was the point of Phase II really? What will they try doing at Phase III? Those people are incompetent and nothing will ever pan out from this. I'm out...


 You know for a fact that they're incompetent do you? Tell me do you work with the them? 

Why do people always have to be so negative? So far the news seems good and it can only be improved on. Why must people breed negativity?

And what exactly are you 'out' of? You're pathetic.

----------


## 2020

> You know for a fact that they're incompetent, do you? Do you work with the them?


 most scientists and vast majority of people in general are. Five years is a long time and they got nothing. That's 5 years wasted from their life. Good job




> Why do people always have to be so negative? So far the news seems good and it can only be improved on. Why must people breed negativity?


 They're not good at all. Their pictures show close to zero new hair. Then in that new video they're talking about this taking another five years... what for? This either works or it doesn't

----------


## Breaking Bald

> most scientists and vast majority of people in general are. Five years is a long time and they got nothing. That's 5 years wasted from their life. Good job
> 
> 
> 
> They're not good at all. Their pictures show close to zero new hair. Then in that new video they're talking about this taking another five years... what for? This either works or it doesn't


 This is all relatively new science that is still being developed and is just beginning to be understood properly. If it's such a failure then why wouldn't just give up? The fact that they may spend more time on it, means that it probably has FURTHER potential.

----------


## 2020

> This is all relatively new science that is still being developed and is just beginning to be understood properly.


 no it's ****ing not. We knew about all those "compounds" a decade go.
"WNT proteins" are they joking? THE CAUSE OF BALDNESS is actually the inflammation proteins that INHIBIT WNT. Lookup "DKK-1". Inject all the WNT you want it won't make the difference since your body will just resist it. I'm willing to bet that if they took WNT out, they would have gotten almost the same results.




> If it's such a failure then why wouldn't just give up? The fact that they may spend more time on it, means that it probably has FURTHER potential.


 ... really? You don't know why they would continue with it?

----------


## rdawg

the negativity is astonishing, why must we look for something to complain about!?

first of all, some of these results are only after a few months, ziering began his stuff around May/June.

These are 'initial' results so we have 2-3 more before we see the final results.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> no it's ****ing not. We knew about all those "compounds" a decade go.
> "WNT proteins" are they joking? THE CAUSE OF BALDNESS is actually the inflammation proteins that INHIBIT WNT. Lookup "DKK-1". Inject all the WNT you want it won't make the difference since your body will just resist it. I'm willing to bet that if they took WNT out, they would have gotten almost the same results.
> 
> 
> 
> ... really? You don't know why they would continue with it?


 2020 I see that you are very determined to go through all of the Histogen threads and flood them with your shitty thoughts on how much of a failure they all are. So I'm not gonna argue with you anymore, it's a waste of my time. 

You are just an annoying ******* troll who likes to argue. If you are 'out' (as previously stated) then GTFO and stay away from these threads. Seriously **** off. Go out and play  :Wink:

----------


## 2020

> These are 'initial' results so we have 2-3 more before we see the final results.


 no we don't. We had 2-3 months after the release of this:
http://histogen.com/downloads/sid_2012_HSC_Final.pdf




> Material from the same GMP manufactured lot of HSC was used in both the Phase I/II study as well as the physicians sponsored IND study conducted by Dr. Ziering


 They even said so in the interview




> 2020 I see that you are very determined to go through all of the Histogen threads and flood them with your shitty thoughts on how much of a failure they all are. So I'm not gonna argue with you anymore, it's a waste of my time. 
> 
> You are just an annoying ******* troll who likes to argue. If you are 'out' (as previously stated) then GTFO and stay away from these threads. Seriously **** off. Go out and play


 am I wrong? They have nothing but numbers and you're all already discussing the possible price for this... why?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> no it's ****ing not. We knew about all those "compounds" a decade go.
> "WNT proteins" are they joking? THE CAUSE OF BALDNESS is actually the inflammation proteins that INHIBIT WNT. Lookup "DKK-1". Inject all the WNT you want it won't make the difference since your body will just resist it. I'm willing to bet that if they took WNT out, they would have gotten almost the same results.
> 
> 
> 
> ... really? You don't know why they would continue with it?


 Mr know it all over here.

If you have all the answers, why dont you set up your own start up.

----------


## 2020

> Mr know it all over here.
> 
> If you have all the answers, why dont you set up your own start up.


 great argument. Instead of calling out incompetency where it is, you suggest me to start my own company?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> great argument. Instead of calling out incompetency where it is, you suggest me to start my own company?


 Talking about incompetency, you convinced loads of people to buy equol from follexen, which not only turned out to be a scam but the company folded.

Secondly, these guys at histogen are professional scientists, not arm chair ethusiasts like you.

Give them the benefit of the doubt.

----------


## 2020

> Talking about incompetency, you convinced loads of people to buy equol from follexen, which not only turned out to be a scam but the company folded.


 no I didn't what are you talking about.




> Secondly, these guys at histogen are professional scientists, not arm chair ethusiasts like you.
> 
> Give them the benefit of the doubt.


 then why are they failing?

----------


## maxhair

> Mr know it all over here.
> 
> If you have all the answers, why dont you set up your own start up.


 It's akin to the "I don't understand what you're saying, therefor you are stupid" argument.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> no I didn't what are you talking about.


 http://www.*****************/interact...sed-on-S-equol

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9021

Granted you didn't directly tell people to buy Folexen, but the way you promoted equol as being the cure, convinced a lot of people to give it a shot.




> then why are they failing?


 So these set of results are not their best, but in the growth booster pdf its clear they regrew thinnings hair around the temples. 

The product is likely to improve.

----------


## 2020

> http://www.*****************/interact...sed-on-S-equol
> 
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9021
> 
> Granted you didn't directly tell people to buy Folexen, but the way you promoted equol as being the cure, convinced a lot of people to give it a shot.


 I just posted studies proving that equol is able to block DHT without messing with 5AR.




> So these set of results are not their best, but in the growth booster pdf its clear they regrew thinnings hair around the temples.


 not that clear actually. If it was that clear, they would have slicked that hair back but they didn't




> The product is likely to improve.


 how? Even more injections? They're not going to actually change the mixture.

----------


## Breaking Bald

yeahyeahyeah, don't feed the troll.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I just posted studies proving that equol is able to block DHT without messing with 5AR.
> 
> 
> 
> *not that clear actually. If it was that clear, they would have slicked that hair back but they didn't*
> 
> 
> 
> how? Even more injections? They're not going to actually change the mixture.


 You are a moron.

Every tom, dick and harry can see a visible difference.

----------


## Dazza

Good to see you back 2020.

How did your TB injections go? Any regrowth at all? You starting OC soon as you stated before in the OC thread that's its the "cure" 

Back on topic, this was what I was expecting from the news.

----------


## Pate

> how? Even more injections? They're not going to actually change the mixture.


 They may well improve the mixture, or its dose. But the main improvement will be repeat applications. There is good reason to believe HSC only works on follicles in the inductive phase. So getting injections every 6 weeks for 1-2 years will mean just about every follicle gets a hit. 

It could massively improve the performance of HSC. Still speculation of course, but educated speculation. And until HSC has been tried in this way, none of the negativity is warranted. Excessive optimism is equally fallacious. But for some reason the bitter baldies hold sway here, so we don't see much optimism. In fact 2020 himself used to be the worst offender on that front with Replicel. Ironically.

----------


## UK_

What I still cant get my head around is how the TRX2 thread has had around 200,000 more views than the primary Histogen thread - just shows how stupid the general public are.

----------


## gutted

> What I still cant get my head around is how the TRX2 thread has had around 200,000 more views than the primary Histogen thread - just shows how stupid the general public are.


 stop making every single thread into a trx2 thread!!! lool - this is the future. This is histogen!

----------


## UK_

I wonder if Spencer could get that interview with Gail now?  I mean there's a lot of information to discuss now right?  Especially growth in temporal regions.

----------


## gutted

> I wonder if Spencer could get that interview with Gail now?  I mean there's a lot of information to discuss now right?  Especially growth in temporal regions.


 lets hope he does.

----------


## rdawg

> I wonder if Spencer could get that interview with Gail now?  I mean there's a lot of information to discuss now right?  Especially growth in temporal regions.


 Or even just ziering again, there's some questions needing to be answered.

----------


## gmonasco

> What I still cant get my head around is how the TRX2 thread has had around 200,000 more views than the primary Histogen thread - just shows how stupid the general public are.


 Or it just reflects the simple fact that, regardless of their relative efficacies, TRX2 is something the public can buy right now, and Histogen's HSC isn't.

----------


## UK_

> Or it just reflects the simple fact that, regardless of their relative efficacies, TRX2 is something the public can buy right now, and Histogen's HSC isn't.


 Or yet another shining example of how hype works in the hair loss industry.

Dr Gho's treatment (regardless of 'relative' efficacy) is available now, I dont see a thread with over half a million views dedicated to it - people prefer to believe a BCAA with some bogus potassium compound will do the unthinkable of regenerating hair follicles.

Hilarious.

Anyway - back to Histogen - I believe Spencer said he would interview specifically Gail after the ISHRS meeting, hope that's still happening!

----------


## The Alchemist

> Or it just reflects the simple fact that, regardless of their relative efficacies, TRX2 is something the public can buy right now, and Histogen's HSC isn't.


 True.  I've got a bridge that public can buy right now for a great price.

----------


## UK_

> True.  I've got a bridge that public can buy right now for a great price.


 I'm going to make a thread about that.  See if I can get 600k views.

----------


## The Alchemist

> Or yet another shining example of how hype works in the hair loss industry.
> 
> Dr Gho's treatment (regardless of 'relative' efficacy) is available now, I dont see a thread with over half a million views dedicated to it - people prefer to believe a BCAA with some bogus potassium compound will do the unthinkable of regenerating hair follicles.
> 
> Hilarious.
> 
> Anyway - back to Histogen - I believe Spencer said he would interview specifically Gail after the ISHRS meeting, hope that's still happening!


 Couldn't agree more.  I think Whitfield is probably responsible for most of the bumping that thread gets.  I'm sure he has multiple accounts on here and is very active in making sure any thread with TRX mentioned stays at the top of the forum.  I still can't get over how gullible people are - or maybe it's just desperation.  I don't know.

There will be a  full blown cure available and Gutted/ulanade will still be on here hyping that vitamin C and amino acids are thickening their hair.

----------


## gmonasco

> Dr Gho's treatment (regardless of 'relative' efficacy) is available now, I dont see a thread with over half a million views dedicated to it


 Because those things aren't comparable at all.

Pretty much anyone can afford the relatively small cost in time and money to order some TRX2 online and try it himself.  But only a small fraction of that customer base can afford the time and expense involved in traveling to a European location and getting a hair transplant at HSI.  Not to mention that most people would vastly prefer a "magic pill" cure over having to undergo multiple surgeries.

----------


## UK_

> Because those things aren't comparable at all.
> 
> Pretty much anyone can afford the relatively small cost in time and money to order some TRX2 online and try it himself.  But only a small fraction of that customer base can afford the time and expense involved in traveling to a European location and getting a hair transplant at HSI.  Not to mention that most people would vastly prefer a "magic pill" cure over having to undergo multiple surgeries.


 I dont see what ease of access or cost has to do with interest generated on a forum, (that's what we're discussing here) especially when we dedicate half our time on here to 'potential' products that many of us are predicting we will not be able to afford... or access.

Obviously TRX2 has received far more interest given the large marketing agenda rolled out by Whitfield and the hype about the product has just snowballed over time, that's what usually happens when objective thinking is thrown out the window.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I dont see what ease of access or cost has to do with interest generated on a forum, (that's what we're discussing here) especially when we dedicate half our time on here to 'potential' products that many of us are predicting we will not be able to afford... or access.
> 
> Obviously TRX2 has received far more interest given the large marketing agenda rolled out by Whitfield and the hype about the product has just snowballed over time, that's what usually happens when objective thinking is thrown out the window.


 I think the problem is, nobody knows if it works or not.

Mixed reviews in the trx2 thread

----------


## 534623

> I think the problem is, nobody knows if it works or not.


 Here is an update by Dr. Craig Ziering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN0bqvnFIw

----------


## The Alchemist

> Here is an update by Dr. Craig Ziering:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN0bqvnFIw


  To get release in a US market requires FDA approval which takes a lot of time.  Ok thanks.  In other ground breaking news, politicians have been found to distort the truth and kids hate homework.

----------


## 534623

> In other ground breaking news, politicians have been found to distort the truth
>  and *kids hate homework*.


 Dont worry kids, because 

A cure for baldness is just a hairs breadth away   :Big Grin:

----------


## 2020

> Don’t worry kids, because …
> 
> A cure for baldness is just a hair’s breadth away …


 


> Nearly 70pc of men experience baldness by the time they reach 80.


 


> By the age of 50, about 40pc of men have some baldness.


 where do they get those numbers?

----------


## 25 going on 65

> where do they get those numbers?


 I dont know. From what I see, almost all men are going bald by 50. More than half by mid 30s.

----------


## rdawg

> I dont know. From what I see, almost all men are going bald by 50. More than half by mid 30s.


 Definitely not half.

I'd say the numbers are probably accurate, maybe 10% in early 20's, 30-35% by age 35. 40%+ once you hit 40.

----------


## 2020

10% in early 20s? Why you're only counting early years?

There is no way 60% of people by the age of 40 have ZERO signs of hair loss. Slight recession/NW2 counts too. I would say that about ~60% of men by age 40 show SOME signs of hair loss.

----------


## rdawg

> 10% in early 20s? Why you're only counting early years?
> 
> There is no way 60% of people by the age of 40 have ZERO signs of hair loss. Slight recession/NW2 counts too. I would say that about ~60% of men by age 40 show SOME signs of hair loss.


 Probably not TOO far off, it's definitely around half, but for alot of those guys it's very slow(a slight thinning on top that doesnt get huge for 5+years etc.)

I guess I meant moreso noticeable kind of hairloss.

----------


## 25 going on 65

yeah not all these guys would be visibly balding to the casual observer. However I have become a disturbingly good "Norwood spotter" and definitely more than half of men are losing hair to some extent before they even get into their late 30s, from what I see.
But I live in the USA where there are a lot of white people. Maybe some ethnicities are less likely to go bald, I don't know.

----------


## UK_

> 10% in early 20s? Why you're only counting early years?
> 
> There is no way 60% of people by the age of 40 have ZERO signs of hair loss. Slight recession/NW2 counts too. I would say that about ~60% of men by age 40 show SOME signs of hair loss.


 I think most close to all people probably around 95% show some kind of hair loss by the time they're 40, I doubt very little everyone has the same hair count as they had when they were 14.

----------


## Desmond84

OK guys, in 2 weeks Histogen will officially complete their entire Phase 1/2a trials  :Smile: 

Not only that, we know for a fact that they ACTUALLY got very strong positive results both in terms of Safety & efficacy (unlike Aderans which is completely silent about what the hell they're up to  :Frown:  )

So we can safely assume that:
*2013* (Feb/March) will be the Phase 2b trials (48 week efficacy trial), and
*2014* (June/July) will be their 48 weeks Phase 3 trial.

This makes *October 2015* a very realistic date for Histogen to become available in Singapore and *Feb 2016* for USA.

Don't forget guys, Histogen is like "_Laser Hair removal_" just in the opposite way. Normally Laser takes 12-14 sessions at 2 month intervals to have a satisfactory cosmetic effect in a male subject, which takes approximately 2 years. The patient will then need to do 1 follow-up session every 1-2 years to maintain these cosmetic effects.

Histogen will be exactly the same. You will have to go back for multiple sessions to get back to where you want to be, and then a single follow-up session every 2 years just to keep it stable  :Smile: 

To 2015  :Cool:  Hipip ..........

----------


## Artista

Des, you have done a great thing in researching all of this and sharing. Thank you brother

----------


## Desmond84

> Des, you have done a great thing in researching all of this and sharing. Thank you brother


 Artista, its a pleasure  :Smile: 

I don't know what I would do without all you folks guiding me along with this damn genetic defect! I'm just doing everything I can to give back to the community I love so much & undrestand so well

----------


## rdawg

> OK guys, in 2 weeks Histogen will officially complete their entire Phase 1/2a trials 
> 
> Not only that, we know for a fact that they ACTUALLY got very strong positive results both in terms of Safety & efficacy (unlike Aderans which is completely silent about what the hell they're up to  )
> 
> So we can safely assume that:
> *2013* (Feb/March) will be the Phase 2b trials (48 week efficacy trial), and
> *2014* (June/July) will be their 48 weeks Phase 3 trial.
> 
> This makes *October 2015* a very realistic date for Histogen to become available in Singapore and *Feb 2016* for USA.
> ...


 Thanks for the info desmond, maybe we'll get more pictures/results early in the new year.

promising treatment so far!

----------


## UK_

I thought next up was phase 3.

Can anyone provide an official piece of evidence that shows their current trial is the first of two phase 2 trials?

----------


## 2020

I would be very interested to know what exactly are they planning to change in those upcoming phases... seriously what? More injections? More charts and vague paragraphs?

I remember in the interview when Spencer asked is it realistic to expect HSC to be available in 2015 and that guy said that probably two years after that...

----------


## Desmond84

> I thought next up was phase 3.
> 
> Can anyone provide an official piece of evidence that shows their current trial is the first of two phase 2 trials?


 Hey UK,

So far, they've only conducted ONE trial which was split in TWO parts:

First part was a 12 week Phase I trial to assess safety, which was then extended to 48 weeks to assess efficacy as a Phase 2 trial. Here's how Histogen broke it down:


_Primary Outcome Measures:Systemic safety measures will be assessed by measuring vital signs, adverse experiences, laboratory tests (hematology, clinical chemistry and urinalysis)and immunological response (anti-drug antibodies) [ Time Frame: Clinically significant change from screening visit to Week 12 ] 
Non-vellus hair counts [ Time Frame: Change from Baseline to week 12 in treatment areas ] 

Secondary Outcome Measures:Hair Thickness Density [ Time Frame: Change from Baseline to week 48 in treatment areas ] [ Designated as safety issue: No ]
Local safety measures will be assessed by clinical exam of treatment areas and monitoring adverse events [ Time Frame: Clinically significant change from Screening visit to Week 48 ]
_

Now that they have proven that Histogen's HSC is SAFE & EFFECTIVE, they will have to conduct a Phase 2b *"Dose-range finding study"*, which will assess how many injections at what intervals would produce the most beneficial result. They will have multiple arms with different treatment regimens which should hopefully answer a lot of 2020's questions, the most important of which are:

1) Histogen's limits: Can you go back to a NW1 with enough injections or does it plateau at some point?

2) What would happen if you injected 200 injections rather than 8? Is it still safe?

etc.


 :Smile:

----------


## Desmond84

> I would be very interested to know what exactly are they planning to change in those upcoming phases... seriously what? More injections? More charts and vague paragraphs?
> 
> I remember in the interview when Spencer asked is it realistic to expect HSC to be available in 2015 and that guy said that probably two years after that...


 Yeah, but Spencer specifically asked: "When can we potentially see this available here in the US? Is it safe to say 2015?" to which he replied "Hmmmm, well maybe +2 years..."

That being said, if its available in Singapore by 2015, you can always get a head start by flying over there and getting your treatments until it becomes FDA-approved.

If you really care about keeping your hair, extra costs should not be an issue  :Smile:

----------


## Desmond84

From what I understand the reason why Aderans Phase II trials took SO LONG (over 5 years) was because every new treatment arm (C, N, CN, CND, DO, etc) was dependent on what they had observed in the previous arm which meant they had to complete one treatment protocol to prepare for the next one <sigh>

With Histogen however, they will simply pick different combinations of:

1) Number of injections (40, 80, 120, 200)
2) Intervals (6 weeks, 8 weeks)
3) Sessions (2, 4, 6)

And create different treatment arms, prior to starting Phase 2b. Once, subjects are enrolled they will follow these treatment protocol for 12 months and will then assess the results. 

That's why they will need 3-4 months from now to start Phase 2b: a) To prepare both the study protocol and b) recruit enough patients. So, unlike Aderans, Histogen should not take another 4-5 years just to complete Phase 2.

2015 is very much possible in my eyes  :Smile:

----------


## Dan26

> I would be very interested to know what exactly are they planning to change in those upcoming phases... seriously what? More injections?


 Histogen showed that increasing the dose increased the effectiveness...

----------


## Desmond84

> Histogen showed that increasing the dose increased the effectiveness...


 Exactly right  :Smile: 

This is the whole "Laser Hair Removal" story: with every session you start to see better cosmetic results. After 12 sessions or so the cosmetic effects are more than satisfactory.

What's interesting is I've been reading on some of these Laser clinics sites and what stood out to me was they ask you to come back *every 6-8 weeks* for your next session! 

Surprisingly, Histogen picked *6 weeks* as their second treatment time point in this trial, which showed greater efficacy. So I think we might be on the right path!

Now nobody can become anywhere near hair-free with 2 sessions of Laser hair removal so you can't expect a full head of hair with 2 sessions of Histogen  :Smile:

----------


## Desmond84

> Yeah, but Spencer specifically asked: "When can we potentially see this available here in the US? Is it safe to say 2015?" to which he replied "Hmmmm, well maybe +2 years..."
> 
> That being said, if its available in Singapore by 2015, you can always get a head start by flying over there and getting your treatments until it becomes FDA-approved.
> 
> If you really care about keeping your hair, extra costs should not be an issue


 Here's Gail Naughton's plans to try and release it early in ASIA  :Smile: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4KE...E&noredirect=1

Korea & Singapore will most likely market the product first!

----------


## 2020

Desmond84 seems to know a lot about Histogen for guy who joined just *4 days before* Histogen's PR announcement... :tinfoilhat:

"dose-range finding"... ok you do realize that you can only inject so much of their stuff with ONE INJECTION. It's not about dosages at this point, it's the number of injections.

Yes, you're right that US approval is not needed for most us since we can fly anywhere. Millions of US residents fly to India to get major treatments since it's 10x cheaper yet the quality is still first world.
Would be nice to get Histogen's approval - hey we're done here, come and get it - before 2015...

----------


## Desmond84

> Desmond84 seems to know a lot about Histogen for guy who joined just *4 days before* Histogen's PR announcement... :tinfoilhat:


 LOL @ that comment  :Smile: 

We all joined this forum at some point dude! 




> "dose-range finding"... ok you do realize that you can only inject so much of their stuff with ONE INJECTION. It's not about dosages at this point, it's the number of injections.


 Yeah I know that 2020. "Dose-range finding" study is a general term they use in Phase 2 trials just to indicate they are tweaking the dose and frequency of administration. In this unique case, dose actually refers to number of injections. 




> Yes, you're right that US approval is not needed for most us since we can fly anywhere. Millions of US residents fly to India to get major treatments since it's 10x cheaper yet the quality is still first world.
> Would be nice to get Histogen's approval - hey we're done here, come and get it - before 2015...


 Dude we will be all meeting up for a few drinks in Singapore b4 going in for the shots  :Wink: 

- Fingers crossed

----------


## 534623

> Histogen showed that increasing the dose increased the effectiveness...


 No. Histogen showed that using another after pic increased the effectiveness...

----------


## 534623

> No. Histogen showed that using another after pic increased the effectiveness.


 Furthermore, Histogen didn't show/prove *"...that extracellular Wnt ligands can promote actual hair follicle neogenesis in adult skin"*   - as mentioned by Dr. George Cotsarelis and co-workers in this field (page 4, left column).

And to prove this, is simple: 
Just inject the stuff into a *COMPLETELY SLICK BALD SCALP*, and after a certain period of time, simply look whether or not thick and coarse terminal hairs grow - in former *slick bald* scalp-skin.

----------


## UK_

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.  THEY CANT TAKE IT WHEN YOU IGNORE THEM :Big Grin:

----------


## UK_

> Dude we will be all meeting up for a few drinks in Singapore b4 going in for the shots 
> 
> - Fingers crossed


 Lets hope so!  I cant wait for the next interview with Gail or Dr Ziering - anyone know when it's going to take place?

----------


## 534623

> THEY CANT TAKE IT WHEN YOU IGNORE THEM


 What do you mean? Most guys ignore you anyhow. I don't get it ...

----------


## UK_

> Yeah, but Spencer specifically asked: "When can we potentially see this available here in the US? Is it safe to say 2015?" to which he replied "Hmmmm, well maybe +2 years..."
> 
> That being said, if its available in Singapore by 2015, you can always get a head start by flying over there and getting your treatments until it becomes FDA-approved.
> 
> If you really care about keeping your hair, extra costs should not be an issue


 That's right - a lot of people interpreted that as the Asian release date and then went on a troll/misinformation frenzy on the boards.

Lets be clear that Dr Ziering was referring to the start date *in the US*, which has never changed, he has said all along it will take longer to release in the US (give or take 2+ years) than in Asia.

----------


## Breaking Bald

Thanks for the info Desmond, I really hope good things are coming. Even this amount of time seems too long though.

----------


## Kiwi

> Thanks for the info Desmond, I really hope good things are coming. Even this amount of time seems too long though.


 Yeah thanks Desmond.

----------


## Desmond84

> Thanks for the info Desmond, I really hope good things are coming. Even this amount of time seems too long though.


 Dude, believe me when I say I want it now too! 

But then when I think about it a little bit more, I get a little bit paranoid. I mean its a novel therapeutic after all meaning we don't know nothing about its potential risks. So the longer they test it out and collect safety data the better it is for all of us! 

So, lets stay positive!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## krewel

> I've said it before and I'll say it again.
> 
> DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.  THEY CANT TAKE IT WHEN YOU IGNORE THEM


 No, Google and Wikipedia research made me smarter than scientists like Prof.Hoffmann etc..  I know, they are professors and have been into hair research for more than a decade but cmon, they're just some stupid hobby scientists.. I only needed 2 months to learn what they learned in 15 years. I'm just more talented, you know.. I don't need them. I'll do my own PGD2 experiments.
And for anyone, who has not seen my results so far. Here I post them again. THAT'S what people want to see:



Seriously mate... stop racking your brain about these hairsite guys or you'll have to deal with grey hairs very soon.. Hairsite is not a forum, it's a nuthouse..

----------


## 534623

> No, Google and Wikipedia research made me smarter than scientists like Prof.Hoffmann etc..


 You shouldn't google so much etc ...

----------


## bananana

I dont know if you've seen this. But the last chat is very promising. 

-Dr. Ziering said - probably 2 to 3 years till Asia availability. It's not know yet how long will one sessions results last.

-Hsc was used (as said) on a guy who had a very poor overall hair quality (donor very weak as well, so I'm guessing a heavily diffuse NW4-5?). Dr. Ziering said his WHOLE hair improved significantly. 

-Also he states all participants saw and FELT positive changes, possibly more positive than you can document with photos. (I'm a photographer and a graphic designer - and thats true!)

-No real side effects whatsoever. 

-All studies are phase 2 still.

----------


## rdawg

> I dont know if you've seen this. But the last chat is very promising. 
> 
> -Dr. Ziering said - probably 2 to 3 years till Asia availability. It's not know yet how long will one sessions results last.
> 
> -Hsc was used (as said) on a guy who had a very poor overall hair quality (donor very weak as well, so I'm guessing a heavily diffuse NW4-5?). Dr. Ziering said his WHOLE hair improved significantly. 
> 
> -Also he states all participants saw and FELT positive changes, possibly more positive than you can document with photos. (I'm a photographer and a graphic designer - and thats true!)
> 
> -No real side effects whatsoever. 
> ...


 Good post! havent seen this.

I'm actually kinda glad they're doing a 2b, a higher/slightly different dose may mean better results. And this seems like it will be very helpful for moderate hairloss sufferers.

Only thing is I hope it's not the ONLY product that will come out in the next few years, hoping Aderans does well, even bitmatoprost.

----------


## bananana

> Good post! havent seen this.
> 
> I'm actually kinda glad they're doing a 2b, a higher/slightly different dose may mean better results. And this seems like it will be very helpful for moderate hairloss sufferers.
> 
> Only thing is I hope it's not the ONLY product that will come out in the next few years, hoping Aderans does well, even bitmatoprost.


 Thanks  :Smile: 

Me too, I hope they test a vast number of dose ranging (and whatnot) combinations, even after it comes on market. 

Very positive chat indeed!

----------


## rdawg

I think what's even more interesting would be what could happen when combining this with other stuff?

HSC+PGD2 inhibitor+ a DHT inhibitor could mean even more positive growth!

----------


## 2020

Histogen stuff starts at 56:30




> I'm actually kinda glad they're doing a 2b, a higher/slightly different dose may mean better results. And this seems like it will be very helpful for moderate hairloss sufferers.


 there is no such thing as a "higher dose". You can only inject so much. If you want more of it, you need to make more injections.

I'm not sure if they're even allowed to change their mix in a significant way...

----------


## rdawg

> Histogen stuff starts at 56:30
> 
> 
> 
> there is no such thing as a "higher dose". You can only inject so much. If you want more of it, you need to make more injections.
> 
> I'm not sure if they're even allowed to change their mix in a significant way...


 Yea that's essentially what I meant.

I have no idea on the rules, but right now they only do it once and then again at 6 months right?

Maybe now they'll try every 2-3 months and see if it's a difference?

Plus we have to see what happens the longer this goes.

----------


## 2020

I've just finished listened to the interview...

Apparently ziering himself injected HSC and according to him he is still slowly losing hair after dropping finasteride... Reflex hyperandrogenicity or HSC fail?

he spent most of his interview time calling out "haters". "who are you telling us it doesn't work", "if you're so smart why don't you try solving this"... etc.
Your pictures suck and you're all vague as ****. Get over it...

I almost went apeshit as he was mentioning significant that, significant that... say significant again I dare you mother****er

----------


## youngsufferer

Reminds me of christians.

If you're sure you're correct in your thinking, why does me questioning it bother you in the slightest?

Sounds like Histogen is having a lot of trouble.

----------


## rdawg

> I've just finished listened to the interview...
> 
> Apparently ziering himself injected HSC and according to him he is still slowly losing hair after dropping finasteride... Reflex hyperandrogenicity or HSC fail?
> 
> he spent most of his interview time calling out "haters". "who are you telling us it doesn't work", "if you're so smart why don't you try solving this"... etc.
> Your pictures suck and you're all vague as ****. Get over it...
> 
> I almost went apeshit as he was mentioning significant that, significant that... say significant again I dare you mother****er


 way to take it out of context.

For the most part he said every single patient had positive results of varying degrees.
He has for the most part a full head of hair so he said he'd be shedding alot more had he not taing HSC and has largely maintained.

the one negative comment and you focus on it.

Alot of positive to take from this, they're in the early stages and still trying to work out the kinks, but at no point did he say there were any negative effects after 1-2 years.

----------


## 2020

> For the most part he said every single patient had positive results of varying degrees.


 "varying degrees". He would have described that as significant results which means jack in the context of medicine. 56 is significant improvement from 53. 5000 is also significantly greater than 53. You see my point?




> He has for the most part a full head of hair so he said he'd be shedding alot more had he not taing HSC and has largely maintained.


 best I could buy is: reflex hyperandrogenicity which means you're now significantly(hahaha  :Big Grin: ) more responsive to DHT's effects.




> the one negative comment and you focus on it.
> 
> Alot of positive to take from this, they're in the early stages and still trying to work out the kinks, but at no point did he say there were any negative effects after 1-2 years.


 it has been almost 5 years. That's a significant portion of one's life  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## hellouser

> "varying degrees". He would have described that as significant results which means jack in the context of medicine. *56 is significant improvement from 53.* 5000 is also significantly greater than 53. You see my point?


 LOL! No, I don't see your point. You make is sound as if 6% is significant relative to hair count and density.

I think you need to go back to elementary and pass your basic math courses.

----------


## bananana

> . .   .  . .   . .


 nothing is good enough for you. you act sometimes as a spoiled brat. you want it now, you want it all.

i agree ziering is avoiding all "concrete" numbers, but that is the way startups function. what do you want to hear? "50 000 new grafts thick as a god damn elephant leg sprouting all over within 21.5 minutes of application? hair keeps growing after you die? it's transferable to your entire family? it costs $0.99 and is available in every tesco/walmart/kaufland?!"

We've been over this xxxxxx times on this forum. You guys will have to agree we're the luckiest humans in the 30000 year history regarding hairloss. Period. 

Show some gratitude.
 Sorry for my tone.

----------


## Dan26

I don't know who this Dr.Zeriing is but I don't need him to tell me if it works or not! It is a HUGE step in fighting hairloss! My only concern is cost and exclusivity.

----------


## 2020

> nothing is good enough for you. you act sometimes as a spoiled brat. you want it now, you want it all.


 Is it wrong of me to be skeptical about the results due to their extremely poor pictures and vague information? Dr. Ziering mentioned that he will be posting pictures to this forum soon so we have that to look forward to...




> "50 000 new grafts thick as a god damn elephant leg sprouting all over within 21.5 minutes of application? hair keeps growing after you die? it's transferable to your entire family? it costs $0.99 and is available in every tesco/walmart/kaufland?!"


 as long as hair growth is significant that's all that matters...




> We've been over this xxxxxx times on this forum. You guys will have to agree we're the luckiest humans in the 30000 year history regarding hairloss. Period.


 we were also the luckiest in 2000, 1990, 1980... I don't see your point. Years will progress no matter what.

----------


## Dan26

And 2020 I really don't blame your skeptism based on what we have actually SEEN.

BUT, you will soon realize Histogen is big for us.

----------


## HairTalk

I think the point is, people want their hair back. No one gives a damn about vellus growth — let's stop talk about it, as if they did.

----------


## HairTalk

[Double-post: please delete.]

----------


## bananana

> I think the point is, people want their hair back. No one gives a damn about vellus growth  let's stop talk about it, as if they did.


 agreed - but dr. ziering said vellus hairs ARE TURNING TO TERMINAL, as well as NEW TERMINAL HAIRS sprouting all over. He also mentioned he would write an article and send it to spencer (as well as publish it elsewhere), it should include photos etc. 

But think about it - they're doing the "effectiveness study" NOW. So, basically histogen is what we've been expecting out of replicel. They have results, visible results, even before they found out the right dose. Therefore - I expect only growth from now on. My wet dream would be that replicel/aderans/others soon arrive at this stage where histogen is, and we have a positive "battle" between companies, but hey...

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> agreed - but dr. ziering said vellus hairs ARE TURNING TO TERMINAL, as well as NEW TERMINAL HAIRS sprouting all over. He also mentioned he would write an article and send it to spencer (as well as publish it elsewhere), it should include photos etc. 
> 
> But think about it - they're doing the "effectiveness study" NOW. So, basically histogen is what we've been expecting out of replicel. They have results, visible results, even before they found out the right dose. Therefore - I expect only growth from now on. My wet dream would be that replicel/aderans/others soon arrive at this stage where histogen is, and we have a positive "battle" between companies, but hey...


 If he is right - it will silence the critics once and for all.

...then again, maybe not.

----------


## didi

Dr Nigam it the real deal guys,

he already has stem cell hair multiplication working, money back guarantee.

Why wait for something that is years away when solution is right here

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Dr Nigam it the real deal guys,
> 
> he already has stem cell hair multiplication working, money back guarantee.
> 
> Why wait for something that is years away when solution is right here


 Who's he? Website?

----------


## Delphi

> Dr Nigam it the real deal guys,
> 
> he already has stem cell hair multiplication working, money back guarantee.
> 
> Why wait for something that is years away when solution is right here


 Dude are you kidding me? Just because someone offers a money back guarantee doesn't  mean that the product works!  How do you know that the company won't claim it's subjective or even honor the guarantee?  Are you going to take some  Indian doctor to court over this? LOL

There is absolutely no evidence that this doctor is perfuming stem cell  hair multiplication so posting this crap is extremely  irresponsible.  Believe me this guy is nothing but an indian hair transplant surgeon using the term hair stem cell multiplication to market his clinic. Don't be so naive., this is not a new tactic.

I mean this guy is doing artificial hair implants too, are you kidding, this doctor has no credibility!

----------


## The Alchemist

> Dude are you kidding me? Just because someone offers a money back guarantee doesn't  mean that the product works!  How do you know that the company won't claim it's subjective or even honor the guarantee?  Are you going to take some  Indian doctor to court over this? LOL
> 
> There is absolutely no evidence that this doctor is perfuming stem cell  hair multiplication so posting this crap is extremely  irresponsible.  Believe me this guy is nothing but an indian hair transplant surgeon using the term hair stem cell multiplication to market his clinic. Don't be so naive., this is not a new tactic.
> 
> I mean this guy is doing artificial hair implants too, are you kidding, this doctor has no credibility!


 
It's shocking how gullible some people are.  Nigram's been posting at hairsite and is flatout saying that he has the cure and it will be widely available in 2015 or maybe 2017.  He has no publications, no credible photos, and can't talk about what he's doing because he's waiting for a patent.

It's the same exact story that they had with the indian clinic that said QR678 was going to cure baldness.  They spent 6 years supposedly isolating this special growth factor and were only waiting on the patent to come through before they unleashed it on the world.  Yeah right.  Years later and we're still waiting on it

http://debrajshome.wordpress.com/201...7/qr-678-faqs/

Sound familiar?

----------


## JJJJrS

> Dude are you kidding me? Just because someone offers a money back guarantee doesn't  mean that the product works!  How do you know that the company won't claim it's subjective or even honor the guarantee?  Are you going to take some  Indian doctor to court over this? LOL
> 
> There is absolutely no evidence that this doctor is perfuming stem cell  hair multiplication so posting this crap is extremely  irresponsible.  Believe me this guy is nothing but an indian hair transplant surgeon using the term hair stem cell multiplication to market his clinic. Don't be so naive., this is not a new tactic.
> 
> *I mean this guy is doing artificial hair implants too, are you kidding, this doctor has no credibility!*


 Couldn't believe that last part until I went on his website and apparently it's true  :EEK!:

----------


## Supersixx

Just took a look at his website and couldn't find no truth to his claim....looking at the before pics of himself and the black guy , u could clearly see his was a hair transplant ( because Indian hair is more densed than average) and the other guy took a front pic from far and side pic up close..lol.....very misleading. If there was some truth to this , they would of been 360 degree pics of patients. HM is like the cure all, unlimited supply with option of more hair than you were born with. The first to achieve this would LOVE and wouldn't hesitate to give you a 360 before and after....when u trying to sell something new, you put it on the table......Dr. Nigram , if you read this ...STOP BEING DECEPTIVE!

----------


## maxhair

Zeiring said the patients he injected did not improve by as much as a whole grade on the Norwood scale, so even if he's telling the whole truth and not over-hyping it, so far, it sounds fairly useless.

Histogen's photos have always been suspect. 

Then Replicel had all the flash website and graphics and announced results that were even more pathetic than Histogen's, so we're all trying to get excited about Histogen again.

Now Zeiring is getting shirty about Histogen's critics. 

Zeiring has shown with this outburst, it doesn't work. 

Let's hope these start ups with almost cures go bust, allowing one company to buy out all the scientific knowledge from the others, leading towards an actually effective treatment.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Zeiring said the patients he injected did not improve by as much as a whole grade on the Norwood scale, so even if he's telling the whole truth and not over-hyping it, so far, it sounds fairly useless.
> 
> Histogen's photos have always been suspect. 
> 
> Then Replicel had all the flash website and graphics and announced results that were even more pathetic than Histogen's, so we're all trying to get excited about Histogen again.
> 
> Now Zeiring is getting shirty about Histogen's critics. 
> 
> Zeiring has shown with this outburst, it doesn't work. 
> ...


 Wow really dude? So negative...It's still early, Dr Zeiring said himself that it is early. They still need to play about with dose so who knows what can be achieved? And what about his comments about using it to regenerate donor hair. Meaning unlimited donor supply for HT's, to me that is amazing!

I think you need to listen to the interview again. So lets NOT 'hope these start ups with almost no cures go bust'. Pathetic man, get a grip.

----------


## 2020

why the need to regenerate donor hair? Why assume that it is only able to regrow hair in still hairy regions? Have they ever tried just injecting into a completely bald person?

----------


## Delphi

> Zeiring said the patients he injected did not improve by as much as a whole grade on the Norwood scale, so even if he's telling the whole truth and not over-hyping it, so far, it sounds fairly useless.
> 
> Histogen's photos have always been suspect. 
> 
> Then Replicel had all the flash website and graphics and announced results that were even more pathetic than Histogen's, so we're all trying to get excited about Histogen again.
> 
> Now Zeiring is getting shirty about Histogen's critics. 
> 
> Zeiring has shown with this outburst, it doesn't work. 
> ...


 It's people like you who make these experts and researchers not want to share their information with us.  You're so short sighted it's unbelievable.  Ziering  is good enough to provide these interviews and at one time he was even posting on this site but jerks like you ****ed that up for us too. Keep it up, we'll all be left in the dark soon.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> why the need to regenerate donor hair? Why assume that it is only able to regrow hair in still hairy regions? Have they ever tried just injecting into a completely bald person?


 I'm not assuming anything, I am just saying that is an added bonus for people that have had HT's. Did you listen to the interview??? Joe asked that question.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> It's people like you who make these experts and researchers not want to share their information with us.  You're so short sighted it's unbelievable.  Ziering  is good enough to provide these interviews and at one time he was even posting on this site but jerks like you ****ed that up for us too. Keep it up, we'll all be left in the dark soon.


 +1 
10char

----------


## maxhair

Intercytex gave up on being capable of finding a viable cure, so sold its knowledge to Aderans or whoever. Great! Aderans might be closer to having all the missing pieces of the puzzle.


Histogen is toning down claims - so it doesn't really work - fine! They have something though (like Replicel), so instead of us lot over-eagerly providing them artificial life support by gossiping and hoping, let them keep their secrets to themselves, go bust, then sell their secrets to each other at rock bottom prices, for an eventual cure.

Drug companies routinely lie about efficacy anyway - I could do without the distraction of interim bullshit.

Zeiring hasn't got round to posting pictures of the potential cure he's seeing results on, but will do so once he's sorted his CDs into alphabetical order. Yeah right.

----------


## Kiwi

> Intercytex gave up on being capable of finding a viable cure, so sold its knowledge to Aderans or whoever. Great! Aderans might be closer to having all the missing pieces of the puzzle.
> 
> 
> Histogen is toning down claims - so it doesn't really work - fine! They have something though (like Replicel), so instead of us lot over-eagerly providing them artificial life support by gossiping and hoping, let them keep their secrets to themselves, go bust, then sell their secrets to each other at rock bottom prices, for an eventual cure.
> 
> Drug companies routinely lie about efficacy anyway - I could do without the distraction of interim bullshit.
> 
> Zeiring hasn't got round to posting pictures of the potential cure he's seeing results on, but will do so once he's sorted his CDs into alphabetical order. Yeah right.


 Go f))k yourself. Nobody here wants to listen to your noob bull crap.

Histogen and Adrerans are NOTHING like Replicel. And that just proves to us old timers what a rim job you really are. 

Go do your research. Come back in a few months. Stop poisoning this site with your misinformation.

----------


## rdawg

> Intercytex gave up on being capable of finding a viable cure, so sold its knowledge to Aderans or whoever. Great! Aderans might be closer to having all the missing pieces of the puzzle.
> 
> 
> Histogen is toning down claims - so it doesn't really work - fine! They have something though (like Replicel), so instead of us lot over-eagerly providing them artificial life support by gossiping and hoping, let them keep their secrets to themselves, go bust, then sell their secrets to each other at rock bottom prices, for an eventual cure.
> 
> Drug companies routinely lie about efficacy anyway - I could do without the distraction of interim bullshit.
> 
> Zeiring hasn't got round to posting pictures of the potential cure he's seeing results on, but will do so once he's sorted his CDs into alphabetical order. Yeah right.


 Yes because he and Histogen gain so much from lying about a product 3-5 years before it's release. They already have investors, they dont need anymore of that.

seriously annoying when I see guys like you posting this extreme negativity, or when you guys and others take an interview out of context, focus on one point(such as it hasnt caused a norword grade to go up, ignoring that he said results have been great so FAR but they are working out the kinks and still in the efficacy phase. Ignoring that he said vellus hairs turn terminal which is substantial alone.)

Like Ziering said, it's guys like this that make these companies not want to show results early on, because they only want a NW7-NW0 product, anything inbetween is "useless".

----------


## Breaking Bald

I agree, seriously maxhair just **** off!! I am so sick and tired of people like you bringing this forum down. It's infuriating!!!!

----------


## Dan26

Histogen alone is not a 'cure', but stop pretending this isn't a HUGE for us bald bozo's. In theory it is crucial in repairing inherently important issues underneath the skin and around the follicles to encourage regrowth. The results we want to see will come soon.

Max hair go do some research bro! Follastin alone 'grows' hair and VEGF and KGF sustain that growth to a degree. I'm not 100&#37; sure how effective Histogen will be over a long period of time, and I really do expect it to cost more than most people can afford.  It works though, and with things like CB and something to address PDG2 levels + friggen transplants, if you want your precious hair in 4-6 years time you'll be able to get it back.

PS All you jackass doctors out there stop doing FUT's NOW...

----------


## inspects

I was reading through the initial 150+ pages of this thread, its not really any wonder why any doctor in his right mind would add anything beneficial to this thread after reading all the posts following the initial post which go off in tangents not even closely related to the original meaning of Spencer's interview or this thread.

Winston should have made it public knowledge any disparaging remarks would be dealt with accordingly, similar to what was posted regarding the Gho interview.

Histogen is still testing, etc; its probably many years away before possibly coming to fruition in the USA, but surely better than nothing in regard to a cell based hair product.

----------


## maxhair

> Go f))k yourself. Nobody here wants to listen to your noob bull crap.
> 
> Histogen and Adrerans are NOTHING like Replicel. And that just proves to us old timers what a rim job you really are. 
> 
> Go do your research. Come back in a few months. Stop poisoning this site with your misinformation.


 You doth protest too much (and so does Zeiring).

----------


## 534623

> You *doth protest too much* (and so does Zeiring).


 Interesting phrase ...



> The phrase has come to mean that one can "insist so passionately about something not being true that people suspect the opposite of what one is saying."

----------


## bananana

Maxhair, you're so negative it hurts. 

There is not a single product in the world that will give you minus 1 norwood. That is not the point either. They have success, even before they tested various dosage, when they fine tune it, who knows whats possible. 

I'm optimistic, as well as the majority of this forum.

----------


## 534623

> They have success, even before they tested various dosage, *when they fine tune it, who knows whats possible*.


 Tumors due to antigen reaction?

By the way: if you say "when they fine tune it, then ..." - does it mean that all their presented "photo evidence" so far couldn't convince you at all?

----------


## bananana

> Tumors due to antigen reaction?
> 
> By the way: if you say "when they fine tune it, then ..." - does it mean that all their presented "photo evidence" so far couldn't convince you at all?


 Well no, I'm saying - its not fine tuned. Thats it. I agree we havent seen some precise photos of what this can do, but I suppose they're waiting on finishing that dosing range study. Plus he said he will write an article and publish it online, with photos. 

I mean they dont know yet how successful it will be, so I understand why they dont put anything in public. But I expect everything to be known when phase 2 is finished. Until then - its all just speculation.

----------


## Losing_It

I believe that Gail Naughton received quite the roasting during the ISHRS. Well, I am grateful that there is at least one company willing to bring a better solution to market. It is truly amazing that Naughton went into hairloss, considering the fact that ATS went bankrupt because they couldn't secure FDA approval for Dermagraft and TranCyte early enough; this is after they received well over 300 million in funding and was at the cutting edge of tissue engineering. I have confidence in their science, but if they do fail I will move on with my life since that is the nature of science.

----------


## rdawg

> I believe that Gail Naughton received quite the roasting during the ISHRS. Well, I am grateful that there is at least one company willing to bring a better solution to market. It is truly amazing that Naughton went into hairloss, considering the fact that ATS went bankrupt because they couldn't secure FDA approval for Dermagraft and TranCyte early enough; this is after they received well over 300 million in funding and was at the cutting edge of tissue engineering. I have confidence in their science, but if they do fail I will move on with my life since that is the nature of science.


 I dont think it's possible for them to 'fail' anymore, they have a product that at least somewhat works in a positive way. It at this moment, causes a solid amount of growth for some, and at least reinforcement for the rest.

the bigger factor is how much more growth can it cause? Can it be an even better product?

What happens when it's coupled with an inhibitor? I mean theoretically, maybe this stuff just isnt quite strong enough when the person has agressive hairloss, but couple with something like FIN, maybe this greatly can improve their hair. I dont know I'm just guessing.

It's definitely the most exciting product in trials right now, in fact minus PGD2, it's the only other one I have hopes for. Aderans seems sketchy, and most others arent very well known or havent really been shown to do much. Although BIM needs to get an update soon, that could be a decent transition product while we wait.

----------


## rdawg

> Well no, I'm saying - its not fine tuned. Thats it. I agree we havent seen some precise photos of what this can do, but I suppose they're waiting on finishing that dosing range study. Plus he said he will write an article and publish it online, with photos. 
> 
> I mean they dont know yet how successful it will be, so I understand why they dont put anything in public. But I expect everything to be known when phase 2 is finished. Until then - its all just speculation.


 And we have another year of Phase IIb updates(or at least 6 months, not sure how it full works).

Increasing the frequency of dosage may very well improve results(every 4 months maybe?), it's a new product, so who knows how the hair will react. Get more volunteer's and just try out different things with different groups.

----------


## Pate

I'm cautiously optimistic that repeat applications of HSC over two years will get me back to a NW3. More than that I'm sceptical because I don't know how it'll work on slick bald. Aderans basically appears very limited there.

But NW3 would do me fine even without a HT to NW2. This will sound weird to some guys here who are freaking out at NW1.5 but I never had any issues with my hair at NW3. I might still figure I'll go all the way and get FUE back to NW2 though!

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys  :Smile: 

I just listened to Dr. Ziering's interview with Spencer! So, they are pretty confident we'll hopefully get our hands on Histogen by 2015 in Asia! That's the best news ever  :Big Grin: 

Thank you Spencer for being so helpful in getting us all the latest updates...you are truly amazing

----------


## Breaking Bald

Indeed, but where are these pics and reports that we were promised??? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Really hope this works out though! I am really struggling at the moment to cope with this atm.

----------


## UK Boy

> *I believe that Gail Naughton received quite the roasting during the ISHRS.* Well, I am grateful that there is at least one company willing to bring a better solution to market. It is truly amazing that Naughton went into hairloss, considering the fact that ATS went bankrupt because they couldn't secure FDA approval for Dermagraft and TranCyte early enough; this is after they received well over 300 million in funding and was at the cutting edge of tissue engineering. I have confidence in their science, but if they do fail I will move on with my life since that is the nature of science.


 I saw a video of Dr. Cole on Hairsite, he was answering questions and one was in regards to the Histogen presentation at ISHRS. Apparently he was one of the people roasting Gail and he doesn't portray her presentation in a good light at all. He says she was contradicting herself and getting angry when questioned over the contradictions. He says that at one point she said that Histogen doesn't create new follicals and at another point said it grew hair in scar tissue indicating that it did grow new follicals, seems she also couldn't really answer questions in regards to the bad quality of photos and just got angry when quizzed about them.

I think it's really weird that a professional woman like Gail would have such a hard time with a presentation, it surely isn't a new thing to her so I wonder why it appears as if it was so badly planned out - contradictions etc?

I wonder if the Dr.s like Cole are being hyper critical of this new treatment because they see the possibilities it brings about and they are starting to worry about their cut of the industry.

I don't get this whole thing with the photos though, I mean companies selling snake oil use dodgy photos an stuff but they don't go through clinical trials. Histogens going through proper trials so surely their stats and photos have to all add up and be real cos otherwise they won't get approved right? I mean can a scam product get through clinical trials and get approved? Surely if Histogen is showing good stats then those stats are what we should believe cos if they're lying about the stats they'll get caught out when the authorising body checks the stats?

Dr. Ziering kinda worries me a bit as well though. He seems to 'believe' in a lot of treatments that other people say do nothing worthwhile - laser therapy, PRP etc. He has faith in Histogen but I'm hoping the results of Histogen are going to be a lot better than these other treatments he has faith in.

I really hope Histogen succeeds and proves all the doubters wrong, really feeling down about the whole hairloss thing again and just pray that something available within the next 2-3 years.

On a side note and a bit unrelated, I feel that the American public does themselves no favours because of this culture they've adopted of sueing everyone. I feel that FDA approval is so strict and takes so long due to this favoured american habit that is sadly moving more and more into europe. I mean look at Propecia - it went through all the FDA checks etc, it's been out for 15 years and now there's all these people wanting to sue over it, they've all just jumped on the bandwagon. The FDA now getting all this shit for approving it etc. So it's not wonder they're so strict an everything when it comes to approving new treatments.

----------


## 534623

> On a side note ...


 You're a damn good analyzer. 
Unfortunately really rare such guys like you - especially on hair loss forums.

----------


## Scientalk56

Well it's kinda depressing what you've said here. Anyway we'll see in 2-3 years whether it's good or not. 
but i just don't get it, why would anybody invest money in something that doesn't work? I mean if histogen is a scam or something, why would they continue doing trails and invest money in it?
histogen had been sued over hsc patent, but they won. it means something.

----------


## Wiffle

> Well it's kinda depressing what you've said here. Anyway we'll see in 2-3 years whether it's good or not. 
> but i just don't get it,* why would anybody invest money in something that doesn't work?* I mean if histogen is a scam or something, why would they continue doing trails and invest money in it?
> histogen had been sued over hsc patent, but they won. it means something.


 Because it's not absolutely clear either way; that is why it's an "investment" - investments are always subject to some risk.  They do their due diligence but there isn't perfect information and sometimes an investment doesn't pan out.

In other words, just because someone made a large investment does not veify that something "works."  That's just the way the world is.

----------


## Artista

Said earlier-
"I believe that Gail Naughton received quite the roasting during the ISHRS"

Based on what? Is there video of Gail at the ISHRS presentations? 
I havent seen anything

----------


## UK Boy

There's not a video that I have seen but as I said there was a video of Dr.Cole on hairsite where he pretty much stated how he and other doctors at the ISHRS meeting had roasted her. Also if you listen to the recent interview that Spencer did with Dr. Ziering then Dr.Ziering talks about his disappointment at the reaction of certain doctors to the presentation.

----------


## Wiffle

> There's not a video that I have seen but as I said there was a video of Dr.Cole on hairsite where he pretty much stated how he and other doctors at the ISHRS meeting had roasted her. Also if you listen to the recent interview that Spencer did with Dr. Ziering then Dr.Ziering talks about his disappointment at the reaction of certain doctors to the presentation.


 According to onlookers with the expertise to know, was the "roasting" factually-based?  Was it fair?  It's not hard for any professional to fluster another one with a barrage of pointed questions.

----------


## Artista

Thank you UK. I will research that . I just don't  understand why Gail would be "roasted" or criticized . She has always been very impressive And so Has the company's research work

----------


## Losing_It

> Said earlier-
> "I believe that Gail Naughton received quite the roasting during the ISHRS"
> 
> Based on what? Is there video of Gail at the ISHRS presentations? 
> I havent seen anything


 It was mentioned in the interview with Dr. Ziering. In my experience, the goal of delivering a conference paper is not really to provide an in-depth account of your research. For that you need an hour or days. You normally have 15 minutes with some questions and you try beforehand to think about the possible questions someone may ask you. At this stage I doubt that Histogen would have all the answers and asking questions you know you won't get the answer to is only trying to put the presenter on the spot. For example, I have written journal articles where I have requested the editors not send my work for peer review to someone I know won't be objective. Or if you do a presentation you hope that a specific person won't be there because they're always way too critical. It happens, people sometimes asked questions just to be difficult. 

I apolgise if I perhaps misunderstood the interview but I am almost certain Ziering mentioned that it was a very difficult crowd.

----------


## 534623

> why would anybody invest money in something that doesn't work? I mean if histogen is a scam or something, *why would they continue doing trails and invest money in it?*


 Because they invest other people's money? 
hmmm, I would do the same as long as I get money from them. Look at Aderans - they do not feel forced to speed up, as long as they get feeded by the wig company in the background.

And if the wig company is kicking them out - pfffff... they sell the gathered knowledge to others and nobody can prove them the contrary (that they did it). I mean, didn't you noticed that the ARI guys never ever published any real "breakthrough" papers? Everything they published so far is just pseudo science.

----------


## goingquick

> I wonder if the Dr.s like Cole are being hyper critical of this new treatment because they see the possibilities it brings about and they are starting to worry about their cut of the industry.


 I don't think any of those are hypercritical questions. They seem quite fair.  Gail Naughton shouldn't cry foul just cause she can't answer perfectly legitimate questions.




> I don't get this whole thing with the photos though, I mean companies selling snake oil use dodgy photos an stuff but they don't go through clinical trials. Histogens going through proper trials so surely their stats and photos have to all add up and be real cos otherwise they won't get approved right? I mean can a scam product get through clinical trials and get approved? Surely if Histogen is showing good stats then those stats are what we should believe cos if they're lying about the stats they'll get caught out when the authorising body checks the stats?


 The problem with the photos is that while the numbers sound impressive, the cosmetic improvement shown in the photos is very underwhelming.




> Dr. Ziering kinda worries me a bit as well though. He seems to 'believe' in a lot of treatments that other people say do nothing worthwhile - laser therapy, PRP etc. He has faith in Histogen but I'm hoping the results of Histogen are going to be a lot better than these other treatments he has faith in.


 I feel the same way.  This is a guy who promotes Viviscal, of all things.  Like Bauman, the guy is more concerned with lining his pockets than he is with actually helping hair loss sufferers.  

My hope for Histogen is that despite the unimpressive photos, there's still the possibility that results could be improved by increasing the dose as well as by receiving multiple treatments.

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## Pate

> My hope for Histogen is that despite the unimpressive photos, there's still the possibility that results could be improved by increasing the dose as well as by receiving multiple treatments.


 Give them a chance. Let them actually treat a cosmetically significant area and wait 12 months for the hair to have a chance to come through.

Even HT hairs take up to 12 months to fully grow in. And those follicles are undamaged by DHT. To be crying fail on LONG haired subjects after 3 or 6 months is not really a fair assessment. Hair follicles take a few months to go through catagen/telogen and then only grow a centimetre a month.

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## goingquick

> Give them a chance. Let them actually treat a cosmetically significant area and wait 12 months for the hair to have a chance to come through.
> 
> Even HT hairs take up to 12 months to fully grow in. And those follicles are undamaged by DHT. To be crying fail on LONG haired subjects after 3 or 6 months is not really a fair assessment. Hair follicles take a few months to go through catagen/telogen and then only grow a centimetre a month.


 That's true.  Perhaps it's also possible that the results would be enhanced when used with a treatment like finasteride.

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## Jasari

> That's true.  Perhaps it's also possible that the results would be enhanced when used with a treatment like finasteride.


 I think what alot of people forget is that; sure it 'may' only partly regrow hair for those with advanced norwoods (which understandably may frustrate some) but for everyone in their teens with MPB on the horizon this will likely mean they never suffer MPB.

It might not be the best for this generation, but in the greater scheme of things that is a cure.

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## Dan26

The results will get better in their following trials. When it hits the market it will be expensive/exclusive.

Mark my words!

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## Dazza

> The results will get better in their following trials. When it hits the market it will be expensive/exclusive.
> 
> Mark my words!


 at first maybe, tho much like botox i cant see this staying expensive let alone exclusive. This compound can be mass produced, it would make more sense to lower the price to get more people interested. one of the main reasons people dont have hair transplants is the price alone.

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## rdawg

> at first maybe, tho much like botox i cant see this staying expensive let alone exclusive. This compound can be mass produced, it would make more sense to lower the price to get more people interested. one of the main reasons people dont have hair transplants is the price alone.


 Educated guess,  it would depend on how good it really is.

but if it bumps you up a norwood I could see it being 100-200 per injection session. (say you need 3 a year).

if this product doesnt do that amazing there's no point in making it 1000+, you're going to lose some customers doing that. Just like Transplants are way too expensive for alot of people.

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## Breaking Bald

Seriously though where are the photos the photos that Zeiring promised us on the Bald Truth Show????

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## Scientalk56

Unlike hair transplant surgery (that requires a whole staff of surgeons, nurses, surgery room and surgery tools and expensive stuff, etc..)  - this (Histogen) would be just injections that could be able to make new hair stay two years. so i think histogen would be a lot more cheaper than a hair transplant.

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## 2020

you people are just dumb or something... this is like discussing rent prices once mars is colonized. Why do you even bother?

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## Dazza

> you people are just dumb or something... this is like discussing rent prices once mars is colonized. Why do you even bother?


 injecting yourself with TB4 was also pretty dumb

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## Wiffle

It's not so dumb to speculate on pricing strategy/market size, etc.  Investment analysts do it all the time.

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## 2020

> injecting yourself with TB4 was also pretty dumb


 how was it any different than from you guys trying this Vitamin C + MSM combo?

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## neversaynever

Has there actually been any photos which show a clear improvement? I havent seen it yet from histogen, including their macro shots....

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## Dazza

> how was it any different than from you guys trying this Vitamin C + MSM combo?


 why dont you ask them..

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## 2020

> why dont you ask them..


 what was your point in mentioning me using TB4?
I used an experimental treatment because there was lots of evidence that it would work. Turns out that it didn't work for me. What now? Should I just leave hair loss forums forever?

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## Dazza

> what was your point in mentioning me using TB4?
> I used an experimental treatment because there was lots of evidence that it would work. Turns out that it didn't work for me. What now? Should I just leave hair loss forums forever?


 Well you just came into a discussion and offered nothing but an insult to people. i just did the same as you. That was my point, childish insulting random people online huh..

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