# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Equol

## neversaynever

Can anyone shed any light on this? Perhaps a equol fan like 2020?

I dont care about the price, if it works and is much safer than fin.

Link me to studies, and explain how its safer.

Fin stops the production of DHT, which can seriously damage your sex life (if youre unlucky).

Equol binds to DHT, so it cant bind to receptors. But how does that not give you sexual side effects??

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## 2020

It's 100&#37; safe since it does not inhibit 5AR or alter any of your hormones but instead just bind straight to DHT.
Reduction of 5AR is what causes side effects with Fin/Dut:
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/vi...06e54183142649

so far no studies have been done specifically on MPB, but from its prostate studies we know that equol is very effective at blocking DHT:






some guy on *** already bought a bunch of bottles of equol and will be taking it in 5x normal dose which should be enough to match the effectiveness of fin and maybe more so we'll see how it goes although I'm 99% sure that HE WILL get some positive results from it.

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## neversaynever

No human tests so far?

Im confused as to lack of side effects. I know how to use my dick, but i dont know the bio mechanisms behind it.

Essentially, we need DHT to get an erection? So if equol binds to DHT, basically making it not dht...how does that not effect our sex lives?

Equol has been talked about for YEARS now, screw the price, if it works im in!

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## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> Essentially, we need DHT to get an erection?


 [IMG]http://www.*****************/interact/images/smilies/sad006.gif[/IMG]

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## neversaynever

> [IMG]http://www.*****************/interact/images/smilies/sad006.gif[/IMG]


 Hahaha. What? Explain....

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## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> Hahaha. What? Explain....


 if DHT was needed to get an erection do you think Finasteride and Dutasteride would even exist?

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## neversaynever

> if DHT was needed to get an erection do you think Finasteride and Dutasteride would even exist?


 Then explain it.....

I want to know why equol wont effect sexual activities but fin and dut can...

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## Ted

http://www.*****************/interact...sed-on-S-equol

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## Conpecia

> Then explain it.....
> 
> I want to know why equol wont effect sexual activities but fin and dut can...


 I think because instead of reducing levels of DHT like fin and dut do, equol just binds to existing DHT and somehow blocks it from messing with your hair. That's a pretty layman response, but I think that's the basic idea.

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## neversaynever

> I think because instead of reducing levels of DHT like fin and dut do, equol just binds to existing DHT and somehow blocks it from messing with your hair. That's a pretty layman response, but I think that's the basic idea.


 I understand that part, but that means both fin and equol technically drop the DHT serum numbers drastically. The end point is the same. Less DHT. 

So ive yet to hear a scientific explaination as to why there would be such a big difference in sides. People are acting as if equol has no sides.

The only explaination ive seen is that 30% of people are producers, and they are not impotent because of dropped DHT. But maybe those people have other mechanisms to compensate for equol production...that we dont, because we dont produce it.

Would love someone to prove me wrong, because im very curious about it...

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## 2020

do you people realize that DHT is barely even relevant in erectile function?
For millions of men over 40 who suffer from ED, their problem is not the lack of DHT.... 
finasteride doesn't affect Testosterone levels so something else must be going probably due to fin indirectly altering a bunch of other hormones.

I'm sure the answer could be found here but I don't have time to go through all that:
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/vi...06e54183142649

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## Dazza

Just a shame this stuff is not affordable for the amount you need on a daily basis. 

If I got my hands on this stuff and it completely halted my hairloss I would only need a few grafts and my hairline is back. 

Any company's working on this product? For either hairloss or another treatment?

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## neversaynever

Hmm.

Well both fin and equol reduce dht levels, but you are suggesting that its the blocking of 5α-reductase that causes fins sides?

Ive read that 5α-reductase deficiancy causes major changes in a mans sex organs.

Does 5α-reductase convert other hormones?

Is DHT the ONLY androgen that attacks follicles? Ive read somewhere that in the lack of DHT, testosterone will make its way to hair follicles and be converted to DHT from within the follicle.

Im not so sure about equol. Its something id like to see put through proper human trials first.

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## neversaynever

"Dutasteride and Finasteride work by inhibiting the action of 5AR so that its ability to convert T to DHT is hampered. These compounds work through a process of irreversible inhibition of the enzyme - they have the ability to modify the active region on the surface of 5AR, so the testosterone cannot use the enzyme. Thus the conversion becomes energetically unfavourable and less likely to occur. To be more precise, there are two types of 5AR. Finasteride targets type 2 while Dutasteride can inhibit type 1 in addition to type 2.

For some men this will be enough to halt hair loss or even regrow hair over time. There are some side effects to inhibiting 5AR because the testosterone that isnt being converted to DHT can trigger other hormonal responses in the body, as part of the natural hormonal feedback loop that we all have. Some men report lack of libido, erectile dysfunction or other side effects due to the increase in female hormones that are produced to counteract the higher levels of testosterone."

Thats the only explanation I can find. Thats from a equol manufacture, talking on another forum

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## 2020

> Well both fin and equol reduce dht levels, but you are suggesting that its the blocking of 5α-reductase that causes fins sides?


 absolutely.




> Ive read that 5α-reductase deficiancy causes major changes in a mans sex organs.
> 
> Does 5α-reductase convert other hormones?


 not sure but it's a fact that 5ar blockers alter your other hormones besides DHT.




> Is DHT the ONLY androgen that attacks follicles? Ive read somewhere that in the lack of DHT, testosterone will make its way to hair follicles and be converted to DHT from within the follicle.


 100% false.

5ar deficient people NEVER EVER go bald despite having tons of T.




> Im not so sure about equol. Its something id like to see put through proper human trials first.


 it's already been put through trials it's just that none of them were about MPB.... mostly women problems and prostate issues.

We already know it's safe, it's just too bad that big pharma isn't interested in making it so we're stuck with a few small labs trying to produce it

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## neversaynever

> absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> not sure but it's a fact that 5ar blockers alter your other hormones besides DHT.
> 
> 
> 
> 100% false.
> ...


 Well that Folexan source recommends 10mg a day. Whats your thoughts on that? You think thats enough to maintain? its not so expensive at that dosage. £20 per month. What are your plans 2020?

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## lilpauly

i'm buying between 30 and 100g

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## 2020

> Well that Folexan source recommends 10mg a day. Whats your thoughts on that? You think thats enough to maintain? its not so expensive at that dosage. £20 per month. What are your plans 2020?


 my opinion is that it wouldn't be enough... maintenance at best if your hair loss is not that aggressive.

if it was up to me, I would be taking it at > 100mg multiple times a day since it has many other health benefits besides binding to DHT.

I'll be waiting for results from that guy who is taking 50mg of equol a day and if he's getting major results from that, then I'll buy it too

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## Conpecia

> I'll be waiting for results from that guy who is taking 50mg of equol a day and if he's getting major results from that, then I'll buy it too


 Let us know how this goes. I'm seriously considering getting on the regular dose to see if I can maintain. I'll update once I start and also if I notice anything.

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## Dirty Hairy

Hey everyone. Hope you are having a good night. Is this something that can be taken along with Fin and Minoxidil? Would you even want to take it along with Fin and Minoxidil or is it just a replacement possibly for Fin?  :Confused:

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## neversaynever

> Hey everyone. Hope you are having a good night. Is this something that can be taken along with Fin and Minoxidil? Would you even want to take it along with Fin and Minoxidil or is it just a replacement possibly for Fin?


 Replacement for fin. IMO i wouldnt want to combine treatments that lower DHT levels. Though they do it in different ways, id rather play it safe.

Wait for people around the forums at least to see if equol stopped their shedding.

Its really difficult to judge, because even on fin sides may not appear for months, even years.

10mg is a very low dose. im tempted to double it, and combine with RU, minox and AHK.

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## jpm

The problem using equol as a replacement for fin, as I see it, is that it is not been thoroughly tested for MPB like fin. So while in theory it works, maybe in practice you could use equol instead of fin for a year, it may not work that well and you can lose a lot of ground while being off fin!

Also it is pretty expensive and hard to get hold of which means that not many people have actually tested it.

Is equol a topical or pill?

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## jpm

Folexen have a site (its Australian I think) where they are selling S-equol.

If someone was to test it they would need to be off all other meds.

Its about £20 for 100 pills and you are meant to take 4 per day so 100 pills would last 25 days....almost a month. So very rough maths says £20 = one month, so a a year would be £240. That's not terrible!!

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## neversaynever

> Folexen have a site (its Australian I think) where they are selling S-equol.
> 
> If someone was to test it they would need to be off all other meds.
> 
> Its about £20 for 100 pills and you are meant to take 4 per day so 100 pills would last 25 days....almost a month. So very rough maths says £20 = one month, so a a year would be £240. That's not terrible!!


 We still dont know how much equol one would need to equal fin in terms of dropping dht levels.

10mg is very small. Guys on forums are going for like 100mg and over. Noone knows...

I think those guys claim 10mg is enough to maintain, probably based on a 6 month human trial (at 10mg). I think the overall gain was around 2% density, while the control group lost around 2%. Its vague...

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## neversaynever

Once equol binds to DHT. That DHT becomes something else right? Its no longer DHT. So what does it become? How does the body get rid of it?

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## 2020

> Once equol binds to DHT. That DHT becomes something else right? Its no longer DHT. So what does it become? How does the body get rid of it?


 something like this:

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## neversaynever

> something like this:


 Does that mean you dont know?

If neo was to stand there for 6 months stopping bullets, whos gonna pick up the bullets from the floor? Someones got to do it...

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## 2020

it becomes inactive = can't bind to AR. Finasteride binds to 5ar and deactivates it so how is it any different?

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## yeahyeahyeah

I have a feeling equol will do **** all.

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## 2020

> I have a feeling equol will do **** all.


 virtually impossible.

We know for a fact that it "deactivates" DHT so why wouldn't it work?

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## Dazza

2020 has a point yeahyeahyeah. it has been proven to work in tests, yes not for hairloss but neither was finasteride originally. 

if the drug binds to DHT, then it will effect hairloss one way or another as DHT does play a role.

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## Davey Jones

If anyone still wants a random guy's opinion on why equol would not have the same sexual side effects as fin, I'm a random guy with opinions.

First reason: Finasteride works by inhibiting the action of both isoforms of 5-ar.  5-ar is not just responsible for the conversion of testosterone to DHT, but for the formation of a few other steroids, particularly neuroactive steroids that bind to the GABAA receptor.  This complicates things past just eliminating DHT, and could cause a lose of "well being" and sexual side effects.

Second reason: When 5-ar is inhibited, that leaves unnatural amounts of testosterone in the bloodstream.  If a person were to also have high amounts of aromatase (the enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen), then the body's estrogen levels would increase.  This could cause sexual dysfunction in men.  Theoretically, the high levels of aromatase could have been previously countered by equally high levels of 5-ar, which when inhibited by fin, couldn't do it's job.  This theory could account for why some people do fine on fin, and some people are ruined.

But the point is, neither of those things happen when you just neutralize DHT.  DHT has a pretty ambiguous function past sexual maturation.  I know for a fact that additional DHT (and DHT derivatives) can make you stronger, but it does seem that eliminating DHT in itself most often doesn't cause negative effects for already grown, healthy men.

Random guy's opinion over.  I am not a doctor, yadda yadda yadda.

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## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> First reason: Finasteride works by inhibiting the action of both isoforms of 5-ar.  5-ar is not just responsible for the conversion of testosterone to DHT, but for the formation of a few other steroids, particularly neuroactive steroids that bind to the GABAA receptor.  This complicates things past just eliminating DHT, and could cause a lose of "well being" and sexual side effects.


 this is not true. finasteride's inhibition of 5-alpha reductase type I is negligible.

wiki claims 5%-7% of testosterone is converted to DHT...however I've read a study where levels of free testosterone were decreased in finasteride users... don't really know how to interpret that atm, I'm no expert by any means either

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## neversaynever

> this is not true. finasteride's inhibition of 5-alpha reductase type I is negligible.
> 
> wiki claims 5%-7% of testosterone is converted to DHT...however I've read a study where levels of free testosterone were decreased in finasteride users... don't really know how to interpret that atm, I'm no expert by any means either


 Why is it negligible? 5-alphase type 1 is reponsible for more than just converting T to DHT.....and fin is pretty effective at blocking it.

I think its variable amongst different people. We all have different DHT, T, 5-alpha, aromatase levels right? Given those varying levels, and the fact that our bodies try to adjust to fin by increasing and decreasing levels of other things...it seems near impossible to make a solid call on equol or fin.

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## neversaynever

> If anyone still wants a random guy's opinion on why equol would not have the same sexual side effects as fin, I'm a random guy with opinions.
> 
> First reason: Finasteride works by inhibiting the action of both isoforms of 5-ar.  5-ar is not just responsible for the conversion of testosterone to DHT, but for the formation of a few other steroids, particularly neuroactive steroids that bind to the GABAA receptor.  This complicates things past just eliminating DHT, and could cause a lose of "well being" and sexual side effects.
> 
> Second reason: When 5-ar is inhibited, that leaves unnatural amounts of testosterone in the bloodstream.  If a person were to also have high amounts of aromatase (the enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen), then the body's estrogen levels would increase.  This could cause sexual dysfunction in men.  Theoretically, the high levels of aromatase could have been previously countered by equally high levels of 5-ar, which when inhibited by fin, couldn't do it's job.  This theory could account for why some people do fine on fin, and some people are ruined.
> 
> But the point is, neither of those things happen when you just neutralize DHT.  DHT has a pretty ambiguous function past sexual maturation.  I know for a fact that additional DHT (and DHT derivatives) can make you stronger, but it does seem that eliminating DHT in itself most often doesn't cause negative effects for already grown, healthy men.
> 
> Random guy's opinion over.  I am not a doctor, yadda yadda yadda.


 Best explaination ive seen so far about equol and lack of side effects. Such a shame there have been no proper studies on this for hair loss.

Why would equol not be the perfect topical? Aside form in topicals, much can go to waste...it would go mostly to our hair. I read that equol is small enough to get into cells, something like that. So it could de-activate the DHT lurking around our follicles?

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## jpm

> Best explaination ive seen so far about equol and lack of side effects. Such a shame there have been no proper studies on this for hair loss.
> 
> Why would equol not be the perfect topical? Aside form in topicals, much can go to waste...it would go mostly to our hair. I read that equol is small enough to get into cells, something like that. So it could de-activate the DHT lurking around our follicles?


 Surely Equol in a pill would be the perfect solution? Its already being sold in a 1mg pill, but that dose needs to be more like 100mg so I've heard, to be effective. 

Surely all a company needs to do is find a way of making Equol cheaper (economies of scale etc) stick 100mg in a pill, then it is a once a day pill. Easier said than done though obviously!!

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## neversaynever

From wiki...

S-equol preferentially activates estrogen receptor type β.

Anyone with knowledge know what that means?

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## neversaynever

Is there a trusted source of s-equol?

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## UK_

> From wiki...
> 
> S-equol preferentially activates estrogen receptor type β.
> 
> Anyone with knowledge know what that means?


 Dont know but sounds like its turning the user into a woman, accept more estrogen and deny androgens.

I dont like the sound of that, one of the things I dread most from all these treatments are their feminising effects.

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## Davey Jones

> From wiki...
> 
> S-equol preferentially activates estrogen receptor type β.
> 
> Anyone with knowledge know what that means?


 It means exactly as it sounds.  Basically, it attaches to the same receptor site as estrogen.  But it's not unheard of for compounds to attach to the same site but have different effects (or at least hugely variable degrees of the same effect).  For instance, DHT and testosterone activate the same receptor sites.

You mentioned early something about levels of one thing effecting levels of other things, hormone feedback loops, basically.  It seems in this case that because levels of serum DHT are not actually changed, feedback loops are not effected.  At very least, levels of testosterone and estrogen shouldn't (or don't seem to be in studies) effected.

I want to admit again, I don't actually know much about this equol stuff.  All I know is that it seems to be the reason bros used to say "Don't eat soy, that shit acts like estrogen in your body!"  I'm mostly just guessing based on the little bit I know about the endocrine system in general.

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## neversaynever

> It means exactly as it sounds.  Basically, it attaches to the same receptor site as estrogen.  But it's not unheard of for compounds to attach to the same site but have different effects (or at least hugely variable degrees of the same effect).  For instance, DHT and testosterone activate the same receptor sites.
> 
> You mentioned early something about levels of one thing effecting levels of other things, hormone feedback loops, basically.  It seems in this case that because levels of serum DHT are not actually changed, feedback loops are not effected.  At very least, levels of testosterone and estrogen shouldn't (or don't seem to be in studies) effected.
> 
> I want to admit again, I don't actually know much about this equol stuff.  All I know is that it seems to be the reason bros used to say "Don't eat soy, that shit acts like estrogen in your body!"  I'm mostly just guessing based on the little bit I know about the endocrine system in general.


 Ahh yea! I remember that one. "too much soy stuff makes you a woman". I guess no scientific link has been made. 

Question is...does equol prefer to bind to DHT or estrogen receptor type β? I guess we'll never know. Id imagine its roaming DHT.

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## neversaynever

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar_...=0CFkQgAMoAjAA

Some words on Equol binding to that receptor. I read some other articles too. Can anyone make sense of it?

Problem is, it binding to that receptor in men is a different matter, compared to women.

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## jpm

> Is there a trusted source of s-equol?


 Pretty sure Folexen is legit, but they only sell 1mg pills which is nowhere near enough.

I can't imagine they wouldn't be legit. After all if they were ''scamming'' people they would at least be selling 100mg pills not 1mg!

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## neversaynever

> Pretty sure Folexen is legit, but they only sell 1mg pills which is nowhere near enough.
> 
> I can't imagine they wouldn't be legit. After all if they were ''scamming'' people they would at least be selling 100mg pills not 1mg!


 2.5mg pills. They recommend taking 4 each day. 10mg is aparently enough to maintain. I think you can up that easily to 40mg and stay safe.

I got in touch with them, they say they have sent a batch to independant testing. They will release the certificate probably on the website or maybe a forum. And we are free to contact the testing facility.

Im just worried about equol binding to estrogen receptors and mimicing certain estrogen properties. There have been studies of equols love for this receptor. But its all studies for women going through menopause...

How on earth would we know how it effects men?

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## jpm

> 2.5mg pills. They recommend taking 4 each day. 10mg is aparently enough to maintain. I think you can up that easily to 40mg and stay safe.
> 
> I got in touch with them, they say they have sent a batch to independant testing. They will release the certificate probably on the website or maybe a forum. And we are free to contact the testing facility.
> 
> Im just worried about equol binding to estrogen receptors and mimicing certain estrogen properties. There have been studies of equols love for this receptor. But its all studies for women going through menopause...
> 
> How on earth would we know how it effects men?


 sorry, my mistake it is 2.5mg a pill!! don't know where I got the 1mg figure from.

Would 10mg be anywhere near enough to make a difference?

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## jpm

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00962390

This company is testing S-equol for BPH, they are in Phase 2 hopefully completing in aug 2013

I believe that BPH is also attributed to high DHT so maybe this can shed some light as to how s-equol interacts with DHT.

Also, if its produced for BPH there is a chance the price will drop dramatically and it can be prescribed off the label, like dut, for MPB

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## neversaynever

> sorry, my mistake it is 2.5mg a pill!! don't know where I got the 1mg figure from.
> 
> Would 10mg be anywhere near enough to make a difference?


 Well, their 'trial' seemed to indicate this. +2% increase in hair density for equol group. Around 2% decrease for control group.

They counted hairs in a 1cm2 area in the temple. Not sure how reliable that is. They said they tried the very best to mark the same area after 6 months!

Aparently, no sides reported.

Read another study where 10mg equol reduced womens hot flushes significantly, in frequency. Brilliant....

10mg is tiny. its been tested as far as 100mg safely I think. Id want to try it at 40 or 50mg, i dont care about the price.

But i want to know about this estrogen receptor in men. Maybe natural equol producers have a body adapted for it somehow?

I've read plenty of articles dismissing the idea that soy products feminize a man, unless someone is going overkill on it. I mean, really overkill. But like everything in this world, too much of anything is bad for you.

Equol is very very very interesting!

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## jpm

> Well, their 'trial' seemed to indicate this. +2% increase in hair density for equol group. Around 2% decrease for control group.
> 
> They counted hairs in a 1cm2 area in the temple. Not sure how reliable that is. They said they tried the very best to mark the same area after 6 months!
> 
> Aparently, no sides reported.
> 
> Read another study where 10mg equol reduced womens hot flushes significantly, in frequency. Brilliant....
> 
> 10mg is tiny. its been tested as far as 100mg safely I think. Id want to try it at 40 or 50mg, i dont care about the price.
> ...


 2% is something....but its not really going to help the average MPB sufferer

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## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> 2% is something....but its not really going to help the average MPB sufferer


 Yes but it would also mean that no hair was lost if their study is correct

you have to learn how to crawl before you learn how to walk


however, 6 months was it? that's not a very long time

now if equol could be proven to maintain hair or better over a period of say 2-years well then..

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## neversaynever

Learning more and more about the soy myth!

First of all. It reduces DHT WITHOUT A DOUBT. So of course it can help reduce, slow down, stop the balding process. The question arises of dosage...

As for side effects, my big concern is the reputation that soy products increase estrogen levels. Indeed equol binds to an estrogen receptor..BUT

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17585029

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.co...es-dht-in.html

I found more, that I didnt bookmark. It seems there is a big potential that equol affects only DHT, with minimal effects on T levels and other things. Its claimed that equol does not change the expression of estrogen receptor beta. Possibly a slight rise in estradol levels. Im not reading anything that scares me here...

"Serum DHT was significantly reduced following the consumption of both a low-isoflavone and high-isoflavone soy protein isolate compared to a milk protein isolate. The reductions were 9.4&#37; and 15%, respectively. The DHT/testosterone ratio was also decreased by 9.0% and 14%, respectively.

The reduction in the DHT/testosterone ratio suggests an inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase. However, 3-alpha-AG, a marker of 5-alpha-reductase activity, was not significantly affected. Levels of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) were also not significantly different between the diets"

Opinions?

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## jpm

equol could be fin replacement and better! 

its frustrating that we have this drug but can't get it (in sufficient quantities) to be effective. Is anyone using the 10mg a day from folexen?

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## Jasari

DHT has strong positive effects on the central nervous system and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress. It also ensures proper libido.
Regardless of the fact that S-Equol binds to DHT it still results in less DHT in the body.  It sucks that we have hairloss and that we know DHT is a primary contributor but it doesnt change the fact that DHT plays an important role in the body. The human body doesn't contain androgens and hormones just for kicks, they serve a purpose.

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## neversaynever

> DHT has strong positive effects on the central nervous system and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress. It also ensures proper libido.
> Regardless of the fact that S-Equol binds to DHT it still results in less DHT in the body.  It sucks that we have hairloss and that we know DHT is a primary contributor but it doesnt change the fact that DHT plays an important role in the body. The human body doesn't contain androgens and hormones just for kicks, they serve a purpose.


 Actually, from what I've read, noone really knows fully DHTs connection with libido. There are guys who have a increased drive on fin. Some guys with low drive. Many are not effected sexually by reducing their DHT.

I believe the hormone balance (which varies greatly from person to person) is far too complicated to make a generalisation.

A person with natively low DHT levels might see more side effects on fin than guys with higher DHT levels. Guys with high estrogen levels might see more sides than guys with low levels, as DHT combats estrogen.

Equol also has other positive health benefits, quite a few actually. So the question is, if equol can be as effective as fin in reducing DHT...which would you prefer to use?

Blocking 5a (fin) effects other hormones, not just DHT. I think its fair to say that DHT is not the primary contributor to sex drive, there are other things at play. Obvious evidence for this is guys that are on fin, who see no decrease in sex drive.

 Equol is potentially the only treatment that effects DHT only.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Actually, from what I've read, noone really knows fully DHTs connection with libido. There are guys who have a increased drive on fin. Some guys with low drive. Many are not effected sexually by reducing their DHT.
> 
> I believe the hormone balance (which varies greatly from person to person) is far too complicated to make a generalisation.
> 
> A person with natively low DHT levels might see more side effects on fin than guys with higher DHT levels. Guys with high estrogen levels might see more sides than guys with low levels, as DHT combats estrogen.
> 
> Equol also has other positive health benefits, quite a few actually. So the question is, if equol can be as effective as fin in reducing DHT...which would you prefer to use?
> 
> Blocking 5a (fin) effects other hormones, not just DHT. I think its fair to say that DHT is not the primary contributor to sex drive, there are other things at play. Obvious evidence for this is guys that are on fin, who see no decrease in sex drive.
> ...


 I really wish people would hurry up and try this shit. If it works - I will buy it. Rather then stating opinions, which HELPS nobody!

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## garethbale

Where can you buy equol?  How do you get hold of it?

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## Jasari

There is no doubt the body requires DHT otherwise it wouldn't produce it. DHT is the most anabolic hormone in the body so it definately affects muscle growth and development aswell.

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## gutted

there is no doubt dht and androgens are needed. what is NOT needed is *excess amounts of this hormone* or the *excess amounts of the enzymes that create this hormone*.

The key is maintaing a healthy equilibrium between these hormones.

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## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> There is no doubt the body requires DHT otherwise it wouldn't produce it. DHT is the most anabolic hormone in the body so it definately affects muscle growth and development aswell.


 where are your sources?

do you really think this medicine would exist for androgenic alopecia if DHT was vital for muscle growth etc

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## 2020

> There is no doubt the body requires DHT otherwise it wouldn't produce it. DHT is the most anabolic hormone in the body so it definately affects muscle growth and development aswell.


 you forgot about testosterone which fin definitely affects while equol does not

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## Jasari

> where are your sources?
> 
> do you really think this medicine would exist for androgenic alopecia if DHT was vital for muscle growth etc


 ^Yes because there is currently no cure to hairloss and the majority will take something regardless of other effects. In saying this I didn't say that you cannot gain muscle without DHT, I stated that DHT is important for muscle growth. DHT is active in the CNS, which is pivotel in increasing strength. 

Testosterone works with DHT to make you stronger and bigger. To get stronger, you must either (1) increase CNS efficiency (get more efficient with the muscle structure you already have), (2) add more muscle tissue, or (3) some combination. Building additional muscle tissue is an expensive metabolic process. Therefore, the body would first prefer to increase CNS efficiency before being forced to add additional muscle. This is often why strength increases rapidly as a beginner, but muscle increases are slower. 

Having optimum DHT will help you reach your CNS efficiency ceilings a lot faster which is obviously beneficial for developing strength and power; Cornerstones of athleticism. With lower levels of DHT in the body there is no scientific explanation to rationalize why performance would not decrease.

A good article on DHT: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm

----------


## Jasari

> you forgot about testosterone which fin definitely affects while equol does not


 But its still lowering DHT regardless of how.

----------


## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> you forgot about testosterone which fin definitely affects while equol does not


 how about this study? 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19597532


"_The serum levels of sex hormone-binding globulin significantly increased, and the serum levels of free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) decreased significantly after 3-month supplementation._"

----------


## neversaynever

> how about this study? 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19597532
> 
> 
> "_The serum levels of sex hormone-binding globulin significantly increased, and the serum levels of free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) decreased significantly after 3-month supplementation._"


 That snippet doesnt tell the full story. First of, 18 of the 28 people were equol producers, 10 were not. Also, im not sure what a significant decrease is. Here are the figures from that study...

Estradiol (pg ml−1)	Baseline: 25.0&#177;5.6	3 months later: 25.2&#177;6.5
SHBG (nmol l−1)    Baseline: 52.2&#177;19.8	3 months later:  61.2&#177;19.9	
DHT (ng ml−1)	Baseline: 0.96&#177;0.27	        3 months later: 0.79&#177;0.23
Free testosterone (pg ml−1) Baseline: 74.9&#177;3.5	3 Months: 70.9&#177;11.2
Total testosterone (pg ml−1) Baseline: 541.0&#177;125.0 3 Months: 576.0&#177;135.0

Heres a more detailed results table of levels for both non equol and equol producers in that study...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...30/table/tbl4/

----------


## neversaynever

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15067102/

Studying relating equol producers to prostate cancer. These results suggest that the ability of producing equol or equol itself is closely related to the lower incidence of prostate cancer. The results also suggest that a diet based on soybean isoflavones will be useful in preventing prostate cancer.

Given that fin was designed for exactly that, means that equol  can do the exactly the same thing. Its just a question of dosage and sides.

----------


## neversaynever

> how about this study? 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19597532
> 
> 
> "_The serum levels of sex hormone-binding globulin significantly increased, and the serum levels of free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) decreased significantly after 3-month supplementation._"


 Also from that very study...

All 28 volunteers completed the 3-month isoflavone administration as scheduled. No statistically significant adverse events were reported by the study participants. Diarrhea was the most frequently reported adverse event and occurred in 3 (11%) of the 28 participants. Two participants had diarrhea of grade 1 according to the Common Terminology Criteria for Adverse Events (v3.0) several times during the consecutive 2 days, and one complained of grade 1 diarrhea once only. No participant discontinued the study regimen or withdrew from the study because of these adverse events. The mean adherence rate was more than 99% during the whole study period. *During the 3 months of Isofla A administration, all participants showed no marked change in their life styles.*

Again this doesnt tell the full story. These guys were a mixture of non producers and producers. They were given soy isoflavones (60 mg daily). These produced slightly different results between the two groups.

If the study was of non equol producing men, having 60mg of equol daily, then it would be of more interest to us.

----------


## neversaynever

Now this is more interesting..

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...m=equol&rank=3

A trial testing EQUOL at high doses.

These studies in healthy participants establish the first report on the plasma and urine levels of unconjugated S-equol after oral dosing. The rapid absorption and pharmacokinetic parameters show that S-equol exposure is linear with dose. There were no significant drug-related adverse events even at the highest dose tested of 320 mg; these data provide the information for dose selection for efficacy studies in postmenopausal women.

The study was for both men and women. Tolerated well upto 320mg. Cant seem to find the full study write-up though. I believe they did multiple trials with varying doses each day. Would be very beneficial for us if someone can hunt down more details from their results.

----------


## 2020

> how about this study? 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19597532
> 
> 
> "_The serum levels of sex hormone-binding globulin significantly increased, and the serum levels of free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) decreased significantly after 3-month supplementation._"


 those people were taking SOY ISOFLAVONES which some people are able to convert into equol but it's not the equol itself that's causing changes in those other hormones

----------


## Jairus

Is LilPauly using Eqoul already?

How are you getting on with it LP?

J

----------


## Jairus

Also....

2020 I think you mentioned 3mg reduced DHT by 10-15&#37;.

Im not up to speed on high levels of DHT suppression, but if you were to increase the tablets to ensure a level of 90%+ suppression and even tho they say equol doesnt have side effects, would that high a level result in anything?

Thanks

----------


## Jasari

> Also....
> 
> 2020 I think you mentioned 3mg reduced DHT by 10-15%.
> 
> Im not up to speed on high levels of DHT suppression, but if you were to increase the tablets to ensure a level of 90%+ suppression and even tho they say equol doesnt have side effects, would that high a level result in anything?
> 
> Thanks


 Of course it will. The fact remains that DHT has its function in the body. I'm honestly not sure how anyone could feel that you will not have side effects lowering DHT by up to 90%.

----------


## Jairus

> Of course it will. The fact remains that DHT has its function in the body. I'm honestly not sure how anyone could feel that you will not have side effects lowering DHT by up to 90%.


 sigh.....so how much can we reduce it by and in conjunction reduce any potential sides?

We have been around this a million times with Fin, surely the fact that equol doesnt affect the reductase means that it has a potentially safer side effect profile no? 

It seems we cant win.

----------


## Jairus

Can someone tell me of a topical that reduces DHT by a considerable amount with negligible sides effects? 

Not interested in messing with hormones. 

possible conjecture accepted.

----------


## neversaynever

> sigh.....so how much can we reduce it by and in conjunction reduce any potential sides?
> 
> We have been around this a million times with Fin, surely the fact that equol doesnt affect the reductase means that it has a potentially safer side effect profile no? 
> 
> It seems we cant win.


 Logically yes, equol should have far less side effects (if any).

It has been tested upto 320mg for a short period, no side effects reported. We're looking at around 25mg for a 70% DHT reduction (guessing!). Noones got the info. Only way to know is to try, ensuring you check your hormone levels before, and after one month of equol.

In august 2013 this trial will finish...

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...m=equol&rank=1

around 124 taking varied doses of equol. This trial (focusing on the prostate) should tell us whats happening. If you dont want to take any 'risks', just wait.

Im told that equol can be used as a topical, but there is no info as to how effective it will be.

Equol also has other health benefits. Fin has no other health benefits.

----------


## Conpecia

No way I can wait another whole year for those results! Guess I'm gonna start with a low dosage and see if I can just maintain, then up the dosage after that trial concludes.

----------


## Conpecia

> Of course it will. The fact remains that DHT has its function in the body. I'm honestly not sure how anyone could feel that you will not have side effects lowering DHT by up to 90%.


 I don't think equol "lowers" DHT in the same manner as fin. It prevents DHT from attaching to hair follicles, but does not lower the amount if I recall correctly.

----------


## lilpauly

> Is LilPauly using Eqoul already?
> 
> How are you getting on with it LP?
> 
> J


 My equal should arrive anyday now

----------


## neversaynever

> I don't think equol "lowers" DHT in the same manner as fin. It prevents DHT from attaching to hair follicles, but does not lower the amount if I recall correctly.


 It does lower the amount of serum DHT, just with a different method to fin. Fin stops the production of DHT by blocking 5a. Equol attaches itself strongly to DHT, after which it is no longer DHT.

It can also pass cellular membranes, so it can enter the prostate and hair follicles and attach itself to DHT there.  A few studies have confirmed that DHT levels are lowered.

----------


## UK_

> It does lower the amount of serum DHT, just with a different method to fin. Fin stops the production of DHT by blocking 5a. Equol attaches itself strongly to DHT, after which it is no longer DHT.
> 
> It can also pass cellular membranes, so it can enter the prostate and hair follicles and attach itself to DHT there.  A few studies have confirmed that DHT levels are lowered.


 If DHT levels are lowered wont the body compensate by producing more test?  And if 5AR is the same more test will be converted to DHT, requiring more and more equol.  I also dont see how this method mitigates the sides experienced during the use of Fin... just looks like a different version of fin - might aswel call it "Dutasteride II".

----------


## UK_

> I don't think equol "lowers" DHT in the same manner as fin. It prevents DHT from attaching to hair follicles, but does not lower the amount if I recall correctly.


 Why the heck to we have DHT receptors on our hair follicles?  What kind of God would design that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4238NN8HMgQ

----------


## bananana

> If DHT levels are lowered wont the body compensate by producing more test?  And if 5AR is the same more test will be converted to DHT, requiring more and more equol.  I also dont see how this method mitigates the sides experienced during the use of Fin... just looks like a different version of fin - might aswel call it "Dutasteride II".


 This is just an opinion? Any science behind this?

just asking.

----------


## neversaynever

> If DHT levels are lowered wont the body compensate by producing more test?  And if 5AR is the same more test will be converted to DHT, requiring more and more equol.  I also dont see how this method mitigates the sides experienced during the use of Fin... just looks like a different version of fin - might aswel call it "Dutasteride II".


 5ar is respsonsible for more than just converting T to DHT. Therefore, blocking it also effects other products of 5ar <<<< this is quite important, no?

The body needs to convert a certain amount of free T to DHT. Excess T? By blocking 5ar...the body is not able to do so, and therefore T levels rise.

Equol allows the conversion from T to DHT, which the body needs. That in itself makes it potentially safer than Fin.

Equol producers have a significantly low incidence rate of prostate cancer. Fin was originally produced for the prostate. Prostate cancer is highly dependant on DHT attaching to receptors.

Ausio Pharmaceuticals claim to have tested equol upto 320mg safely, albeit for a short period. they are currently testing it in men upto 150mg for prostate health.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21341397

What people need to understand that there is a huge difference in blocking 5ar and de-activating just DHT. Though the outcome is the same, the mechanism will get very different reactions from the body.

blocking 5ar effects more than just DHT. 5ar does MORE than just converting T to DHT. The body needs this process of T to DHT. if its not able to do this, T levels rise.

"In vivo equol treatment significantly decreased rat prostate weights and serum 5alpha-DHT levels but did not alter LH, testosterone, and estradiol levels"

Now this is for rats of course. But I have read other studies indicating the same. This all suggests that it is the blocking of 5ar that effects T levels, not the drop in DHT levels. Now, noone knows for sure, which is why Equol deserves more attention.

I believe T levels will be effected somewhat, and probably varies from person to person. But i have no doubt that blocking 5ar is more harmful than de-activating just DHT. Lets be realistic, everything has some side effect. We're talking about the possibility of equol being FAR MORE safer than fin.

Thats my non expert opinion on it.

----------


## TheDude

Hay neversaynever good explanation, much appreciated..

Its the increase in T levels and thereby the increase in E levels that are dangerous.. Hence gyno etc

----------


## neversaynever

> Hay neversaynever good explanation, much appreciated..
> 
> Its the increase in T levels and thereby the increase in E levels that are dangerous.. Hence gyno etc


 Thats no explaination. Just my 'hunch' . Seems no company is interested in proper trials. Such a shame.

----------


## jpm

anyone got Equol yet??

----------


## gutted

testosterone/dht/5ar reductase is not the problem. excess of these IS the problem.

dht/androgens regulate the hair cycle through expression of cox2 and possibly other unknown enzymes which are involved in the hair cycle.

so therefore people with excess of either andorgens/5ar enzymes would *exccessiveley* shed hair through -> excess cox2 initiated via androgens -> this would show up as thinning/balndess

people with "normal levels" of androgens/5ar would cycle hair *in a way* that baldness/thinning/minutuarisation is not viewable

*
The reason why people with "normal levels" of androgens do not experience minutuarising hairs is that their cox 2 levels downregulate during regeneration.*

find a way to block/lower cox2 and you would stop hair shedding/baldness dead in its tracks.

----------


## neversaynever

> testosterone/dht/5ar reductase is not the problem. excess of these IS the problem.
> 
> dht/androgens regulate the hair cycle through expression of cox2 and possibly other unknown enzymes which are involved in the hair cycle.
> 
> so therefore people with excess of either andorgens/5ar enzymes would *exccessiveley* shed hair through -> excess cox2 initiated via androgens -> this would show up as thinning/balndess
> 
> people with "normal levels" of androgens/5ar would cycle hair *in a way* that baldness/thinning/minutuarisation is not viewable
> 
> *
> ...


 Unfortunately, i dont have time to find a way to block cox2...im near the point of no return! are their any drugs in the pipeline?

----------


## gutted

> Unfortunately, i dont have time to find a way to block cox2...im near the *point of no return!* are their any drugs in the pipeline?


 its possible the "point of no return" does not exist and in actual fact -> time and cox2 blocking will likeley regernarate your hair including stopping you from going bald.

----------


## 2020

> its possible the "point of no return" does not exist and in actual fact -> time and cox2 blocking will likeley regernarate your hair including stopping you from going bald.


 what are you personally doing to address this COX-2 problem?

----------


## gutted

> what are you personally doing to address this COX-2 problem?


 
either directly lower cox 2 or indirectly -> lower dht to acceptable levels having the knock on effect on cox 2 expression.

sulfasalzine, benaxoprofen, curcumin, saw palmetto (certain brands), 9 grams MSM, and im sure theres many many stuff out there that does this potently i.e someone needs to trial d-flame supplement to see if it has any effect on hair.

propecia may be the fda approved way to go but certainly not a wise decsion IMO.

----------


## neversaynever

> either directly lower cox 2 or indirectly -> lower dht to acceptable levels having the knock on effect on cox 2 expression.
> 
> sulfasalzine, benaxoprofen, curcumin, saw palmetto (certain brands), 9 grams MSM, and im sure theres many many stuff out there that does this potently i.e someone needs to trial d-flame supplement to see if it has any effect on hair.
> 
> propecia may be the fda approved way to go but certainly not a wise decsion IMO.


 Id rather take equol, at least until there is more progress with pgd2 and cox2 stuff. You may well be right, but there isnt any compound available at this point (thats known to maintain hair). Its another interesting avenue though.

Also, i dont see how an oral cox 2 suppressor is a good choice. If we took oral medicine strong enough to block cox 2 in the scalp, would that not be massively dangerous for us?

----------


## gutted

> Id rather take equol, at least until there is more progress with pgd2 and cox2 stuff. You may well be right, but there isnt any compound available at this point (thats known to maintain hair). Its another interesting avenue though.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, i dont see how an oral cox 2 suppressor is a good choice. If we took oral medicine strong enough to block cox 2 in the scalp, would that not be massively dangerous for us?


 there have been various patents explaining how blocking these enzymes results in hair growth.
although i agree taking the more potent ones (benaxoprofen etc) can be dangerous but saw palmetto, msm, curcumin seem to be tolerated well.

also bear in mind im not saying these drugs need to be taken for life - only until regeneration takes place which will give you a 3/5 year anagen hair cycle until minturaisation takes course.

in my personal opinion blocking cox2 is one of the most underrated hair loss approaches.

*using eqoul will allow you to maintain however blocking cox 2 directly will allow actual hair regeneration. It is this upregulated enzyme that stops hair from turning terminal*

----------


## 2020

> *using eqoul will allow you to maintain however blocking cox 2 directly will allow actual hair regeneration. It is this upregulated enzyme that stops hair from turning terminal*


 how is that even possible? Wouldn't castration automatically downregulate cox-2?

Did you find any shampoos that are good at blocking COX-2?

----------


## gutted

> how is that even possible? Wouldn't castration automatically downregulate cox-2?
> 
> Did you find any shampoos that are good at blocking COX-2?


 *
cox 2 expression stays upregulated permanently after the last hair cycle -> follicles go dormant.* 
the only way to revive those is through cox2/ (possibly 5lox as well) inhibition. Doing this forces the hair follicle to regenerate. Whether those hairs are cosmetically accepatable (thick) depends on the *amount* of cox2 that has been blocked at the point when the follicle decides to regenerate. 


nizoral blocks cox2/5 lox, however it has other effects hence why i wouldnt reccomend it.

----------


## 2020

> *
> cox 2 expression stays upregulated permanently after the last hair cycle -> follicles go dormant.*


 PERMANENT upregulation? How do you deregulate it forever? "switches" like that are bad news for Histogen

what are you taking currently?

----------


## gutted

well, semi permanently.

you cant deregulate it forever, its part of you. What needs to be done is inflammation controlled which elevates cox2 further more in addition to the natrual hair cycling cox2 expression through androgens.

trx2, msm, curcumin, garlic extrct, saw palmetto.

----------


## 2020

> well, semi permanently.
> 
> you cant deregulate it forever, its part of you. What needs to be done is inflammation controlled which elevates cox2 further more in addition to the natrual hair cycling cox2 expression through androgens.
> 
> trx2, msm, curcumin, garlic extrct, saw palmetto.


 how could they miss such an obvious thing - inflammation.

Bad news just keep coming in.... if it turns out that MPB is caused by some "permanent switch" rather than some real damage than we're screwed.

I almost wish that MPB was auto-immune at this point.

----------


## gutted

> how could they miss such an obvious thing - inflammation.
> 
> Bad news just keep coming in.... if it turns out that MPB is caused by some "permanent switch" rather than some real damage than we're screwed.
> 
> I almost wish that MPB was auto-immune at this point.


 there is no "permanent switch". Its fully reversible with time.
Benaxoprofen proves this.

----------


## 2020

> there is no "permanent switch". Its fully reversible with time.
> Benaxoprofen proves this.


 perhaps? But how could Histogen POSSIBLY overcome this "semi-permanent" overexpressed COX-2 expression?

benaxoprofen is a suicide and it doesn't prove ALL of it since not many people in the experiment experienced the reversal of MPB.




> Out of 300 patients who had taken benoxaprofen for a mean of 6.4 months, *196 (65.3&#37 reported side effects, resulting in 104 patients (34.6%) having the drug withdrawn.*


 
also, the crap you're taking won't do much. You should at least try sulfazine which is like a "weaker" benaxoprofen with minimal side effects.

----------


## gutted

> perhaps? But how could Histogen POSSIBLY overcome this "semi-permanent" overexpressed COX-2 expression?
> 
> benaxoprofen is a suicide and it doesn't prove ALL of it since not many people in the experiment experienced the reversal of MPB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also, the crap you're taking won't do much. You should at least try sulfazine which is like a "weaker" benaxoprofen with minimal side effects.


 why do you keep going on about histogen? histogen works long term through possibly many unknown mechanisms, (even possibly indirect downregulation of cox 2) and right know i would take hostogen over ANY "inconvenient" topical or drug.

yeh i know benaxoprofen is a suicide but the underlying principle needs to be researched further.

the "crap" im taking is *without a doubt definiteley* maintaing for me, as for regrowth, ill know more with time. 
dont want to take sulfasalazine due to possible sides but full regrowth of a hairline = cure.

----------


## 2020

> why do you keep going on about histogen? histogen works long term through possibly many unknown mechanisms, (even possibly indirect downregulation of cox 2) and right know i would take hostogen over ANY "inconvenient" topical or drug.


 because I've been researching their science for the past month and I don't think that HSC would work long term especially if there is some kind of "switch" rather than "damage" which I think is the case. Stem cells simply turn off so that's the main problem. HSC also claims that they grow BRAND NEW FOLLICLES.... yeah I don't think so





> yeh i know benaxoprofen is a suicide but the underlying principle needs to be researched further.


 it does!




> the "crap" im taking is *without a doubt definiteley* maintaing for me, as for regrowth, ill know more with time.


 and how do you know that's not due to TRX2 and saw palmetto where both have some positive studies so you certainly wouldn't be the first one to regrow hair on either one of those.




> dont want to take sulfasalazine due to possible sides but full regrowth of a hairline = cure.


 dude that drug has been around for like 50 years and millions of people take it for arthritis plus I'm sure you can get it for cheap nowadays. It's definitely safe.

This also comes back to: why aren't those millions of people on NSAIDS regrow any hair?

----------


## JDW

Is anyone on here getting that s-equol Folloxen product that's being talked about on ***?

----------


## gutted

> and how do you know that's not due to TRX2 and saw palmetto where both have some positive studies so you certainly wouldn't be the first one to regrow hair on either one of those.


 its difficult tell if youve regrown hair if your not fully bald. Leaving it to human vision to assess whether youve rergrown hair (unless you are slick bald) is very hard, although i believe i have regrown some hair on my regime although not where i would like it to grow. Hence why i want a guinea pig that is a slick bald nw5/7 to see what this can do on them.
 Its not trx2 or saw palmetto alone, its definetley the combination, that is preventing me from *further balding - 2000%* 




> dude that drug has been around for like 50 years and millions of people take it for arthritis plus I'm sure you can get it for cheap nowadays. It's definitely safe.


 Yeah i know but stil...you never know, i would have to stay on it for around a year or two and cant really commit to that.




> This also comes back to: why aren't those millions of people on NSAIDS regrow any hair?


 its very difficult to assess if you have regrown hair unless you are slick bald hence why its one of the reasons why people dont/cant take notice.
Also i doubt even if people noticed they regrew hair using it they would come on places like this to document it.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Is anyone on here getting that s-equol Folloxen product that's being talked about on ***?


 I might order it.

----------


## 2020

interesting... a bunch of people were regrowing hair left and right on hydrocortisone:

https://www.google.com/webhp#q=site:...hydrocortisone 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topical...cation_systems

here's your cure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clobetasol_propionate (side effects: *Hypertrichosis*)

^ if this doesn't regrow you hair, nothing will  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


EDIT: *RESULTS FROM CLOBETASOL PROPIONATE*

before:


after:

----------


## gutted

> interesting... a bunch of people were regrowing hair left and right on hydrocortisone:
> 
> https://www.google.com/webhp#q=site:...hydrocortisone 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topical...cation_systems
> 
> here's your cure:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clobetasol_propionate (side effects: *Hypertrichosis*)
> ...


 
needhairasap, was supposed to be trialling this stuff, but i guess he probably didnt stick with it long enough to see any regrowth, dont know what the situation is with him though.

----------


## BaldinLikeBaldwin

hey 2020 in a post earlier this year you said a cure would be available by the end of the year, do you still believe that?

----------


## 2020

> hey 2020 in a post earlier this year you said a cure would be available by the end of the year, do you still believe that?


 I said: WE WILL KNOW by the end of this year if we'll be cured in the next 5 years or not.

I personally am not interested in any future treatments except for Histogen.... it has the most potential but it's also a gamble since we know so little about it

----------


## damielmillo

Hi 2020, do you think that S-equol can work like Finasteride or Dutasteride but without side effects?
Can Folexen mantain and maybe thicken up the existing hairs?
I am really interested in this product...
If at least can mantain i am Done!!

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> interesting... a bunch of people were regrowing hair left and right on hydrocortisone:
> 
> https://www.google.com/webhp#q=site:...hydrocortisone 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topical...cation_systems
> 
> here's your cure:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clobetasol_propionate (side effects: *Hypertrichosis*)
> ...


 Just to make sure, you're recommending this stuff for people with alopecia areata and not MPB, Right? I have used a couple of tubes of clobetasol propionate for Alopecia Areata, and have a big tube left. It was prescribed for me, for AA.

For people reading this, do NOT use this for MPB, it does not work for MPB. Read the wikipedia page that 2020 linked, it says




> Clobetasol propionate is used for the treatment of various skin disorders including eczema, psoriasis, and lichen sclerosus. It is also used to treat several auto-immune diseases including alopecia areata, vitiligo, lichen planus (auto immune skin nodules), and mycosis fungoides (T-cell skin lymphoma).


 Aside from wikipedia saying this, I use it every single day, and I can tell you it does not regrow hair loss caused by MPB.

----------


## 2020

> Hi 2020, do you think that S-equol can work like Finasteride or Dutasteride but without side effects?
> Can Folexen mantain and maybe thicken up the existing hairs?
> I am really interested in this product...
> If at least can mantain i am Done!!


 yes, we already for a fact that it binds to DHT without affecting any other hormones unlike fin/dut plus it's dose dependent so the more you take of it, the more effective it becomes.

The only problem with it is the cost. No one knows the exact dose needed but > 50mg of that stuff daily for sure would halt baldness permanently(not ~5 years, PERMANENTLY!) but that much would cost you > $200/month... too much unless you're a celebrity  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

we need big pharma to get involved with this. Merck should start making it since they could do it so super cheap and because their Propecia patent is about to expire anyways...

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yes, we already for a fact that it binds to DHT without affecting any other hormones unlike fin/dut plus it's dose dependent so the more you take of it, the more effective it becomes.
> 
> The only problem with it is the cost. No one knows the exact dose needed but > 50mg of that stuff daily for sure would halt baldness permanently(not ~5 years, PERMANENTLY!) but that much would cost you > $200/month... too much unless you're a celebrity 
> 
> we need big pharma to get involved with this. Merck should start making it since they could do it so super cheap and because their Propecia patent is about to expire anyways...


 Ordered 2 bottles, lets see how this shit does.

----------


## damielmillo

I will order some Folexen and i will start with 10 mg per day and then will try more...
If this is the permanent cure and can stop all my hair loss i will work crazy and buy a lot of this stuff...but we need more information...
Do you think that also can heal the scalp inflamattion like Fin and dut ?

----------


## 2020

> Aside from wikipedia saying this, I use it every single day, and I can tell you it does not regrow hair loss caused by MPB.


 are you regrowing other hair not caused by MPB?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I will order some Folexen and i will start with 10 mg per day and then will try more...
> If this is the permanent cure and can stop all my hair loss i will work crazy and buy a lot of this stuff...but we need more information...
> Do you think that also can heal the scalp inflamattion like Fin and dut ?


 didnt you get surgery from dr gho, what did he recommend you do for maintainence?

----------


## damielmillo

He didnt recommend me nothing but i talked with them about some treatments...
The best obviously is Fin...but i have terrible side effects...
So, for me will be great to mantain with S equol without side effects...

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> are you regrowing other hair not caused by MPB?


 It has suppressed Alopecia Areata. The AA on my scalp is no longer active. I will have to wait for the next hair cycle to see if new hair regrows. As far as regrowing hair that was lost by AA, no it hasn't. I mean as far as a cosmetic difference goes, it hasn't. So to answer your question: Not that I know of.

The only treatment that made a cosmetic difference, and regrew a lot of hair that was lost by AA, was corticosteroid injections on the spots. It's been the most effective treatment by far.

----------


## 2020

> It has suppressed Alopecia Areata. The AA on my scalp is no longer active. I will have to wait for the next hair cycle to see if new hair regrows. As far as regrowing hair that was lost by AA, no it hasn't. I mean as far as a cosmetic difference goes, it hasn't. So to answer your question: Not that I know of.
> 
> The only treatment that made a cosmetic difference, and regrew a lot of hair that was lost by AA, was corticosteroid injections on the spots. It's been the most effective treatment by far.


 CB is the most POWERFUL corticosteroid of all. Maybe it's because it wasn't an actual injection is why it wasn't so effective?

----------


## thechamp

So it's for sale on the foxellen site is male pattern baldness over? How much a year we talking?

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> CB is the most POWERFUL corticosteroid of all. Maybe it's because it wasn't an actual injection is why it wasn't so effective?


 That's a possibility. But I don't know if there's a such thing as injecting clobetasol. If it could be done, then I don't see why it shouldn't be more effective.

My dermatologist did warn, however, that applying clobetasol will be less effective than corticosteroid injection. But I insisted and they gave me the clobetasol propionate ointment. They were right, it is less effective. Because i'm applying it, rather than injecting it.

I wonder if taking oral corticosteroid would be more effective than applying it.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

I wish we AA sufferers could some how signal our white blood cells to stop attacking our hair follicles. "Alright guys, stop attacking the hair follicles, they're your friends".

I mean what type of explanation for AA is, "You're immune system is attacking your hair follicles".

----------


## Conpecia

Good to see some Folexen supporters cropping up. Think I'm gonna join the party in August. Really looking forward to the high dosage results to see if we can get that 2&#37; regrowth higher. I'll eat Raman noodles for the rest of my life if $200/month will cure hairloss.

----------


## neversaynever

> Ordered 2 bottles, lets see how this shit does.


 You gonna check your hormone levels before and after?

----------


## neversaynever

Oh sod the waiting around. Im ordering. Going for a hormone check next week. Gonna start with 20mg of equol a day.

----------


## neversaynever

> yes, we already for a fact that it binds to DHT without affecting any other hormones unlike fin/dut plus it's dose dependent so the more you take of it, the more effective it becomes.
> 
> The only problem with it is the cost. No one knows the exact dose needed but > 50mg of that stuff daily for sure would halt baldness permanently(not ~5 years, PERMANENTLY!) but that much would cost you > $200/month... too much unless you're a celebrity 
> 
> we need big pharma to get involved with this. Merck should start making it since they could do it so super cheap and because their Propecia patent is about to expire anyways...


 $200 a month is well worth it if it works with veyr minimal sides. I can afford it easily.

I suspect 30mg might do it, but im going for 20mg a day.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> You gonna check your hormone levels before and after?


 Should I get it checked?

----------


## neversaynever

> Should I get it checked?


 I think its a good idea. Then we know exactly whats happening to our DHT and T levels. Will help us know what the ideal dose is.

Anyone know how much DHT should be reduced by to maintain hair?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I think its a good idea. Then we know exactly whats happening to our DHT and T levels. Will help us know what the ideal dose is.
> 
> Anyone know how much DHT should be reduced by to maintain hair?


 In that case, I will let you do that before I start.

----------


## neversaynever

> In that case, I will let you do that before I start.


 i dont plan on returning to forums once i start my regimen.

----------


## Kiwi

> i dont plan on returning to forums once i start my regimen.


 That sucks?!!

So are there any equol before after photos anywhere on the net at all?

Also why isnt this all over the news if its a viable propecia alternative???

----------


## neversaynever

> That sucks?!!
> 
> So are there any equol before after photos anywhere on the net at all?
> 
> Also why isnt this all over the news if its a viable propecia alternative???


 Fin and dut already own the market. Equol still requires a huge test / study for hair loss. Maybe companies dont see it as 'worth doing' considering it wont be more effective than fin. The real interest for us is less sides. Its a bit of mystery. But there is a company testing it, thought not for hairloss...

http://www.ausiopharma.com/TechPages/OralStudies.html

They are well into trials of equol for menopause, and currently in trials for prostate issues with men.

They are testing topical gels and oral tablets.

_A second, multiple-dose, placebo-controlled Phase 1 clinical trial was initiated in December 2008. In this study, healthy males and females were given AUS-131 twice daily at doses ranging from 10 mg (total daily dose of 20 mg) to 160 mg (total daily dose of 320 mg) for 2 weeks. Results demonstrated the safety of AUS-131 and an excellent pharmacokinetic profile at all doses tested._

I cant seem to find the full study write up on the net. Can anyone else?

Ive emailed them, no reply.

----------


## neversaynever

There seems to a be huge number of other health benefits of equol too. Its crazy that it hasnt been taken more seriously.

As far as I know, its not possible to hold a patent on Equol. That might be a big reason. The mystery continues...

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> There seems to a be huge number of other health benefits of equol too. Its crazy that it hasnt been taken more seriously.
> 
> As far as I know, its not possible to hold a patent on Equol. That might be a big reason. The mystery continues...


 TBH dont see why you need a hormone check.

It will be the same as taking saw palmetto.
And asians in the far east eat this stuff daily.

----------


## neversaynever

> TBH dont see why you need a hormone check.
> 
> It will be the same as taking saw palmetto.
> And asians in the far east eat this stuff daily.


 To check what the correct dose of equol is.

what if 30mg is optimal and youre taking 60mg or 10mg? saw palmetto is a different mechanism.

Id rather try to get equol to match fin in terms of serum DHT levels. And I dont want to waste my time. So im quite happy to have 3 blood tests to confirm the correct dose. Baseline, 1 month, 6 months.

I want results. Not guess the sufficient dose and hope its correct.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> To check what the correct dose of equol is.
> 
> what if 30mg is optimal and youre taking 60mg or 10mg? saw palmetto is a different mechanism.
> 
> Id rather try to get equol to match fin in terms of serum DHT levels. And I dont want to waste my time. So im quite happy to have 3 blood tests to confirm the correct dose. Baseline, 1 month, 6 months.
> 
> I want results. Not guess the sufficient dose and hope its correct.


 Could you post back your findings?

----------


## neversaynever

> Could you post back your findings?


 yea ok, will do.

Anyone know what kind of reduction in DHT would equal 1mg fin?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yea ok, will do.
> 
> Anyone know what kind of reduction in DHT would equal 1mg fin?


 Thanks.

What I dont understand - we are lowering DHT, just via a different mechanism.

How is this any different to fin?

----------


## neversaynever

> Thanks.
> 
> What I dont understand - we are lowering DHT, just via a different mechanism.
> 
> How is this any different to fin?


 1. The body needs to convert T to DHT. its an important function. Blocking the bodies ability to do this can cause havoc in the hormone feedback loop. T levels then rise. Equol allows this conversion, but handcuffs just dht. So thats one problem eliminated.

2. the 5ar that fin blocks is responsible for more than just T to DHT conversion. Amazingly, we still dont know fully what 5ar is doing in terms of hormones. There is plenty of evidence to suggest it doesnt exist to just convert T to DHT. If this is the case, then equol would have massive benefits over fin.

People equate all of fins side effects to DHT. There is far more at play here. Including sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG is regulated by the levels of many hormones, and its important that it retains a good ratio to T levels. When T rises, SH

I dont think its fair to say that equol will have zero side effects. But so far, from the information at hand, it seems a FAR safer proposition than fin or dut.

----------


## 2020

> Maybe companies dont see it as 'worth doing' considering it wont be more effective than fin.


 ha... that's the thing - it's DOSE DEPENDENT. the more you take, the more DHT it binds to. I'm sure there exists a dose where it would block 100&#37; of DHT.
Can you say the same about fin or dut?

Big Pharma should be interested in this...

----------


## NeedHairASAP

Hey whats up... just wondering if anyone has had any results from this.... or any of the other chemicals you guys sit around speculating about for months and months and months, yet have not one picture of success.....other than the guido guy who may or may not have had success. his success depends which pictures you look at...

im just tired of these research chemical threads that never have ANY pictures to prove anything.. just endless back and for ranting.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

Once again, just like TRX2, no before and after pictures, just a whole lot of articles and promises. But no results. And people still buy it. You guys are amazing.

Hey why don't you guys also try Procerin while you're at it? Lol.

http://www.amazon.com/Procerin-Table.../dp/B000F49F7U

*Ingredients*
Saw Palmetto Berries, Gotu Kola, Nettles, Magnesium, Zinc Sulfate, Eleuthero Root, Vitamin B-6, Pumpkin Seed Meal, and Muira Puma Root.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Hey whats up... just wondering if anyone has had any results from this.... or any of the other chemicals you guys sit around speculating about for months and months and months, yet have not one picture of success.....other than the guido guy who may or may not have had success. his success depends which pictures you look at...
> 
> im just tired of these research chemical threads that never have ANY pictures to prove anything.. just endless back and for ranting.


 My thoughts exactly. The problem is, they just buy this stuff without even seeing if it works. A bunch of scientists say it works, explain the "science" behind it, and that's it, hair loss sufferers buy it. It's sad. Look at the price on that thing too, it's a scam. Some dude trying to get as much money as possible, and go on a permanent vacation.

Closest cure for hair loss right now? Finasteride, Minoxidil, Hair Transplant.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Hey whats up... just wondering if anyone has had any results from this.... or any of the other chemicals you guys sit around speculating about for months and months and months, yet have not one picture of success.....other than the guido guy who may or may not have had success. his success depends which pictures you look at...
> 
> im just tired of these research chemical threads that never have ANY pictures to prove anything.. just endless back and for ranting.


 Well if there is any consolation.
Equol has been proven to lower DHT clinically.

Problem with this product is that it is too new.

----------


## 2020

it binds to DHT without any side effects as proven here:
http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4/

do you really need pictures to show what would happen to your hair once you block DHT?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> it binds to DHT without any side effects as proven here:
> http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4/
> 
> do you really need pictures to show what would happen to your hair once you block DHT?


 If it is so good, why dont you find the money and buy the product

----------


## 2020

> If it is so good, why dont you find the money and buy the product


 will do very soon...

----------


## Dazza

How expensive is this stuff? Where is this drug being sold. My google search sent me into hair forums lol. 

Also question, say this stuff worked, if you remove the DHT from those areas would hair fully return? Or are some hair follicles too damaged and need a boost? Say with a hair growth topical?

----------


## neversaynever

> Once again, just like TRX2, no before and after pictures, just a whole lot of articles and promises. But no results. And people still buy it. You guys are amazing.
> 
> Hey why don't you guys also try Procerin while you're at it? Lol.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Procerin-Table.../dp/B000F49F7U
> 
> *Ingredients*
> Saw Palmetto Berries, Gotu Kola, Nettles, Magnesium, Zinc Sulfate, Eleuthero Root, Vitamin B-6, Pumpkin Seed Meal, and Muira Puma Root.


 Ahhh damn. Youre right. Pumpkin seeds dont work, so equol must also not work. Damn!

----------


## neversaynever

> ha... that's the thing - it's DOSE DEPENDENT. the more you take, the more DHT it binds to. I'm sure there exists a dose where it would block 100% of DHT.
> Can you say the same about fin or dut?
> 
> Big Pharma should be interested in this...


 Ive not read anything that indicates equol dosing is linear.

----------


## 2020

> Ive not read anything that indicates equol dosing is linear.


 

more equol -> more effective

----------


## thechamp

The problem fin works proven results but alot of us get sides,equol not proven to work with results true?

----------


## Conpecia

Hmm, seeing a lot of criticism directed at those who are trying new stuff; same could be said about automatically denouncing a product the efficacy of which has not been disproved. You guys have any studies showing Equol doesn't work? Pictures? Easy to shift the burden of proof, not so easy to meet it...

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Hmm, seeing a lot of criticism directed at those who are trying new stuff; same could be said about automatically denouncing a product the efficacy of which has not been disproved. *You guys have any studies showing Equol doesn't work? Pictures?*  Easy to shift the burden of proof, not so easy to meet it...


 
Lmfao.

______________

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Ahhh damn. Youre right. Pumpkin seeds dont work, so equol must also not work. Damn!


 How can you say pumpkin seeds don't work? Nobody has proven that it doesn't work yet. Pictures? Yeah, that's what I thought!

----------


## Conpecia

Good point. Except, you know, people have tried pumpkin seeds and they don't work...

Which totally ruins your parallel.

Fail.

----------


## Conpecia

I don't understand why anyone would waste his or her time going into random threads on a baldness forum to talk shit about other people trying new treatments. That is seriously the most ridiculous thing I can imagine, using all of my effort. Let me try one more time... nope, still can't think of anything more pointless. 

Ok man, you don't think it works; you think it's a scam, because... oh, that's right, you have absolutely zero evidence to support your claim. Forgot. It just doesn't work. Because you say so. Great. See ya.

----------


## jpm

Anyone received the S-equol from folexen yet??

I'm interested if using it with fin has a synergy effect. Like a 1 + 1 = 3

----------


## damielmillo

I will receive it next week...
I hope it can give the same effects that Fin but without side effects...
If S equol binds DHT same or more like Fin, why will not have the same effects in the hair? Also i think it can thicken up existing hairs...

----------


## jpm

> I will receive it next week...
> I hope it can give the same effects that Fin but without side effects...
> If S equol binds DHT same or more like Fin, why will not have the same effects in the hair? Also i think it can thicken up existing hairs...


 are u just going to be using equol?

----------


## MackJames

Considering its untested for hair loss, Im Not convinced equol will do a damn thing but would consider giving it a try if it was cheap.  

There is no reason it can't be made cheaply in the US as an over the counter nutritional supplement.  As far as I know it conforms to dietary supplement regulations underline by the DSHEA.

----------


## thechamp

Where is the proof Equol works just another trx2 where are the before and after pics?

----------


## aim4hair

As i see, folexen is located in australia and they are selling e-quol as a hair loss treatment. So does that mean the company is legit and this supplement was approved from the authority there  (something similar to FDA approval in the US) ?

----------


## 2020

> Where is the proof Equol works just another trx2 where are the before and after pics?


 lol the proof is that IT BLOCKS DHT. 

Do you really need pictures to see what would happen to your hair if you took away DHT?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> lol the proof is that IT BLOCKS DHT. 
> 
> Do you really need pictures to see what would happen to your hair if you took away DHT?


 ...saw palmetto blocks dht

----------


## 2020

> ...saw palmetto blocks dht


 it blocks 5AR actually. Both types of it at that. The problem is that we don't know the exact "strength" of it so we can't establish an appropriate dose. Plus there are so many kinds of SP...

----------


## thechamp

If this Equol product works or not simple

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> I don't understand why anyone would waste his or her time going into random threads on a baldness forum to talk shit about other people trying new treatments. That is seriously the most ridiculous thing I can imagine, using all of my effort. Let me try one more time... nope, still can't think of anything more pointless. 
> 
> Ok man, you don't think it works; you think it's a scam, because... oh, that's right, you have absolutely zero evidence to support your claim. Forgot. It just doesn't work. Because you say so. Great. See ya.


 The talk of a desperate man. You are the exact type of person who this Equol company is targeting. A laughably desperate person. "There's no proof that it works, but there's no proof that it doesn't work". That's the spirit. You're the type who gets jipped, the type who doesn't asks questions. These guys are hustlers, you're just getting hustled like a birdbrain. Go on and try it, then we'll see who failed or who's not making any sense.

----------


## Maradona

> If this Equol product works or not simple


 I'm thinking if it binds to DHT and still "fools" the AR that this is DHT so as not  to activate the hair loss gene in the hair follicle, it could work.

But doing this in your entire body seems risky to me.

I wouldn't do it, i'm shitless scared of pills.

----------


## thechamp

It ethier works or it doesn't with no sides like fin!!

----------


## MackJames

> It ethier works or it doesn't with no sides like fin!!


 No, there are many possible outcomes other than the two you listed.  For instance, it doesn't work or work well enough to product cosmetically relevant results and there are sides or it does work and there are sides.  When I say sides I am referring to a host of possible side effects some of which are not sexual in nature, cancer for instance.

----------


## Maradona

> No, there are many possible outcomes other than the two you listed.  For instance, it doesn't work or work well enough to product cosmetically relevant results and there are sides or it does work and there are sides.  When I say sides I am referring to a host of possible side effects some of which are not sexual in nature, cancer for instance.


 Damn everything causes cancer these days, it's scary.

I am not joking.

----------


## Dirty Hairy

True that....every time you turn around, somebody you know or have heard of is getting cancer. It's consuming all of these things that are unnatural to our bodies or that are disrupting our body chemistry. Equol could possibly end up doing the same thing. (not fact)

----------


## aim4hair

> No, there are many possible outcomes other than the two you listed.  For instance, it doesn't work or work well enough to product cosmetically relevant results and there are sides or it does work and there are sides.  When I say sides I am referring to a host of possible side effects some of which are not sexual in nature, cancer for instance.


 One of the reported side effects of propecia is breast cancer as mentioned in their website..

----------


## neversaynever

> The talk of a desperate man. You are the exact type of person who this Equol company is targeting. A laughably desperate person. "There's no proof that it works, but there's no proof that it doesn't work". That's the spirit. You're the type who gets jipped, the type who doesn't asks questions. These guys are hustlers, you're just getting hustled like a birdbrain. Go on and try it, then we'll see who failed or who's not making any sense.


 Fin halts hairloss by reducing DHT levels (via blocking 5ar). Equol is PROVEN, without a doubt, to reduce DHT levels. Like fin originally, most studies so far have focused on the prostate.

Im sure theres been plenty of bullsh*t treatments over the years, but perhaps the bullsh*t has made you lose your ability to see things clearly.

Equol, thus far, is unproven for hair. But its ability to reduce DHT levels give it a big chance of helping halt MPB.

There is solid science behind this. You're right of course unproven for hair. But will you admit that fin helps out hair by reducing DHT levels?

----------


## MackJames

> Fin halts hairloss by reducing DHT levels (via blocking 5ar). Equol is PROVEN, without a doubt, to reduce DHT levels. Like fin originally, most studies so far have focused on the prostate.
> 
> Im sure theres been plenty of bullsh*t treatments over the years, but perhaps the bullsh*t has made you lose your ability to see things clearly.
> 
> Equol, thus far, is unproven for hair. But its ability to reduce DHT levels give it a big chance of helping halt MPB.
> 
> There is solid science behind this. You're right of course unproven for hair. But will you admit that fin helps out hair by reducing DHT levels?


 In the end, the only thing that is relevant is that it is unproven for hair.  We can speculate all we want but it's only conjecture.

----------


## thechamp

RE: Folexen Enquiry
Reply ▼
*Delete*More ▼
*
8:49 AM
Eclipse Nutraceuticals
Show details
Hi Michael,

Thanks for your message.

Yes, in some cases regrowth occurs, while some other users see maintenance
only. This product does not have the side effects associated with some of
the other treatments.

We did a clinical study on the effectiveness of Folexen, but no photos were
taken. In the coming months we'll post some before and after photos on the
website but it'll take a while since it's a new product.

----------


## MackJames

> RE: Folexen Enquiry
> Reply ▼
> *Delete*More ▼
> *
> 8:49 AM
> Eclipse Nutraceuticals
> Show details
> Hi Michael,
> 
> ...


 Remain skeptical.  Remember, this company is selling a product.

----------


## Conpecia

> The talk of a desperate man. You are the exact type of person who this Equol company is targeting. A laughably desperate person. "There's no proof that it works, but there's no proof that it doesn't work". That's the spirit. You're the type who gets jipped, the type who doesn't asks questions. These guys are hustlers, you're just getting hustled like a birdbrain. Go on and try it, then we'll see who failed or who's not making any sense.


 Who says I've even purchased this? Who says I'm not waiting for more information before I spend money on it? Who says it would even hurt me financially to take a risk on this treatment? Again, my problem with you is not that you don't think it will work, but that you give no explanation as to why it won't work. Equol blocks DHT. There are studies on this thread showing that. Why should I listen to you over those studies? Why do you think Folexen is the only equol product on the market? Why do you assume I'm not doing research outside of reading this thread? Why do you assume I'm not in communication with Folexen right now "asking questions?"

You don't want to take calculated risks on new products? Fine. Enjoy minox. Enjoy laying down to baldness without a fight. Good luck making it to 2017...

----------


## Conpecia

> Yes, in some cases regrowth occurs, while some other users see maintenance
> only. This product does not have the side effects associated with some of
> the other treatments.
> 
> We did a clinical study on the effectiveness of Folexen, but no photos were
> taken. In the coming months we'll post some before and after photos on the
> website but it'll take a while since it's a new product.


 Do not like the way this is worded. "... while SOME other users see maintenance only." Which could be interpreted to mean some see further loss.

----------


## 2020

> Do not like the way this is worded. "... while SOME other users see maintenance only." Which could be interpreted to mean some see further loss.


 they probably mean "ON OUR RECOMMENDED DOSAGE" some users see maintenance only... which can be true since 10mg blocks 30-40% of DHT at most

----------


## thechamp

U trying this stuff this is exciting

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> U trying this stuff this is exciting


 Received 2 bottles today.

Hesitant to start, not sure what the effects of blocking DHT will have on body building.

----------


## Maradona

> Received 2 bottles today.
> 
> Hesitant to start, not sure what the effects of blocking DHT will have on body building.


 Be very careful yeahyeahyeah. I don't see the difference with finasteride on this pill. You still are stopping DHT all around your body.

That's just my advice. Anything that is a pill is a big no no for me!

----------


## damielmillo

I think is really different...You are only blocking DHT so much be safer than Fin.
Fin blocks 5AR and has effect in the brain , libido and more...
I hope Equol can work like Fin without sides, i am waiting for my pills next week.!!
Keep updated!!

----------


## neversaynever

> Received 2 bottles today.
> 
> Hesitant to start, not sure what the effects of blocking DHT will have on body building.


 Ive seen forum posts of guys on fin who achieved massive gains in the gym.

You are not getting rid of all the DHT in your body.

If you are worried about sides, dont take them. I would say its better to start these DHT treatments with a relaxed attitude.

----------


## neversaynever

> Be very careful yeahyeahyeah. I don't see the difference with finasteride on this pill. You still are stopping DHT all around your body.
> 
> That's just my advice. Anything that is a pill is a big no no for me!


 The difference is really simple. Fin blocks 5ar...so it blocks many hormone mechanisms in the body, including DHT of course.

Equol ONLY blocks DHT.

That is a huge difference. Everyone see's the DHT lowering, but everyones forgetting 5ar.

The other nice thing, that people dont want to accept, is that equol has many other health benefits. In the skin, brain, non essential fat burning, thyroid and others.

----------


## Maradona

> The difference is really simple. Fin blocks 5ar...so it blocks many hormone mechanisms in the body, including DHT of course.
> 
> Equol ONLY blocks DHT.
> 
> That is a huge difference. Everyone see's the DHT lowering, but everyones forgetting 5ar.
> 
> The other nice thing, that people dont want to accept, is that equol has many other health benefits. In the skin, brain, non essential fat burning, thyroid and others.


 I was thinking that 5ar's only purpose was to make DHT from T and not other hormones that cause side effects.

The side effects come from the lack of DHT to your body parts this includes the brain, penis,muscle,hair,body hair, mood,etc.

So if you block the DHT you will block all these things from performing well.

Mouth: Hey guys no DHT anymore! / Swallos DHT blocking pill. 
AR Receptors all over your body go: "What's going on"?
Endocryine system says: "I don't know. Looks like we don't have DHT, let me fix it by increasing other hormones like estrogen and also change your sensitivity to androgens".
Brain: "Don't do it !!!"
Body: "Noooooooooooooooooooooo. /Makes sound of crash".
Fingers: " click click /typing propeciahelp.com"

This is exactly what happened to me.

Hope I explained it well  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Maradona

> I think is really different...You are only blocking DHT so much be safer than Fin.
> Fin blocks 5AR and has effect in the brain , libido and more...
> I hope Equol can work like Fin without sides, i am waiting for my pills next week.!!
> Keep updated!!


 danielmillo te mande un mensaje. Porfavor chequealo, gracias.

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## neversaynever

> I was thinking that 5ar's only purpose was to make DHT from T and not other hormones that cause side effects.
> 
> The side effects come from the lack of DHT to your body parts this includes the brain, penis,muscle,hair,body hair, mood,etc.
> 
> So if you block the DHT you will block all these things from performing well.
> 
> Mouth: Hey guys no DHT anymore! / Swallos DHT blocking pill. 
> AR Receptors all over your body go: "What's going on"?
> Endocryine system says: "I don't know. Looks like we don't have DHT, let me fix it by increasing other hormones like estrogen and also change your sensitivity to androgens".
> ...


 Nicely explained  :Stick Out Tongue: 

BUT, ive come to learn that 5ar is also responsible for other things like neuroactive steroids. These steroids are heavily linked with fighting depression, and other brain related stuff. Depression can also make your dicks limp....

I read one study indicating that the main mechanism for anti-depressants is to raise these steroid levels. Why everyone thinks they have limp dicks because of lower DHT, perhaps its the brain having lower neuroactive steroid levels?

Another factor might be SHBG. I believe equol slighty raises SHBG, which is a protein that binds to both estrogen and T, making them inactive. Balding guys have significantly lower SHBG levels...

Given how complex our hormone balance is, and that every person has different levels of every compound...I dont think we can simply attribute ALL of fins sides to DHT reduction. There are alot of guys out there who get zero sides from fin for years...maybe because their particular hormonal balance is ok with lower DHT levels. I dont know.

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## winston2208

been hoovering round this site for a while now, and just registered to post so i could express my concerns over this folexen site. to me the site looks completely mickey mouse, as in i could knock it up in an hr, and i'm no web developer, there is no contact besides email which is also highly suspicious. now all this would say to me (and i could be wrong) that there is a likelihood that you're buying extremely expensive multi vitamins, a site that has 5 pages with a few stock images and no contact bar email just doesn't sit right with me. maybe i've gone to the wrong site, but i couldn't find any others, anyhow, just though i'd post my concerns.

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## Kiwi

> I was thinking that 5ar's only purpose was to make DHT from T and not other hormones that cause side effects.
> 
> The side effects come from the lack of DHT to your body parts this includes the brain, penis,muscle,hair,body hair, mood,etc.
> 
> So if you block the DHT you will block all these things from performing well.
> 
> Mouth: Hey guys no DHT anymore! / Swallos DHT blocking pill. 
> AR Receptors all over your body go: "What's going on"?
> Endocryine system says: "I don't know. Looks like we don't have DHT, let me fix it by increasing other hormones like estrogen and also change your sensitivity to androgens".
> ...


 Hey bro are you saying you tried this stuff out?

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## yeahyeahyeah

> been hoovering round this site for a while now, and just registered to post so i could express my concerns over this folexen site. to me the site looks completely mickey mouse, as in i could knock it up in an hr, and i'm no web developer, there is no contact besides email which is also highly suspicious. now all this would say to me (and i could be wrong) that there is a likelihood that you're buying extremely expensive multi vitamins, a site that has 5 pages with a few stock images and no contact bar email just doesn't sit right with me. maybe i've gone to the wrong site, but i couldn't find any others, anyhow, just though i'd post my concerns.


 It's a start up. What do you expect?

Saying that - I still haven't taken any of the capsules YET.

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## winston2208

> It's a start up. What do you expect?
> 
> Saying that - I still haven't taken any of the capsules YET.


 
just expressing a concern, nearly all legit businesses have contact information, its very fishy when they don't.

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## jpm

> just expressing a concern, nearly all legit businesses have contact information, its very fishy when they don't.


 while I agree it isn't the best looking website out there. There is a site: ukfinasteride.info that looks 'poorly' made but it is 100% genuine and me and countless others buy fin from there.

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## winston2208

> while I agree it isn't the best looking website out there. There is a site: ukfinasteride.info that looks 'poorly' made but it is 100% genuine and me and countless others buy fin from there.


 i can't speak in regards to ukfinastride, i'm not policing websites, i just happened to take a look at the folexen site because it sounds promising, alas i won't be buying from the site as it doesn't look trustworthy to me. quality of the website aside the main concern i have is the lack of contact info, surely a company that produces s-equol has some physical place of business. the reason i'm concerned is that as we all know the balding community is looking for anything, the slightest hint at something resembling a treatment whether proven or not and they'll be people wanting to buy the  stuff. now in regards to this website it'd take very little to set up, very little to have mass produced labels, bottles, and sugar pills, and as we all know word spreads over the internet and before you know it you've sold thousands of bottles of the stuff and made a tidy profit off the back of peoples desperation.

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## PatientlyWaiting

> i can't speak in regards to ukfinastride, i'm not policing websites, i just happened to take a look at the folexen site because it sounds promising, alas i won't be buying from the site as it doesn't look trustworthy to me. quality of the website aside the main concern i have is the lack of contact info, surely a company that produces s-equol has some physical place of business. the reason i'm concerned is that as we all know the balding community is looking for anything, the slightest hint at something resembling a treatment whether proven or not and they'll be people wanting to buy the  stuff. now in regards to this website it'd take very little to set up, very little to have mass produced labels, bottles, and sugar pills, and as we all know word spreads over the internet and before you know it you've sold thousands of bottles of the stuff and made a tidy profit off the back of peoples desperation.


 Becareful, the Equol fanboys don't like it when their product is being questioned with legit questions and concerns.

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## neversaynever

> Becareful, the Equol fanboys don't like it when their product is being questioned with legit questions and concerns.


 the authenticity of the pills are of course a concern. Folexen have sent pills to a us testing facility, and we will be free to contact the facility once results are published. But, they could have just sent a good batch for testing, and be selling fakes. Plus we dont 100% know equol will work. We know it reduces dht in a unique way, thats all. Theres a few guys trying it out. Im just shocked that not one of them is checking their hormone levels. Id do it, just to check its doing what its supposed to be doing! The science is solid, but the reality may not reflect the science. Im very interested, but skeptical.

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## bananana

you know what - when I received my equol 2 weeks ago, I though they look like a cheap shit pills made at a local crack whore amphetamine chop shop - and thats EXACTLY why I believe they are legit.

 :Big Grin: 

I'm sick of vichy, loreal, rogaine, extremely over-marketed products that do nothing basically.

We'll see about folexen, I believe them so far.

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## bananana

PS - should it be taken before, during, or after meals?

Tnx.

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## dex89

Any of you guys had  positive magical miracle with this product?

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## neversaynever

> Any of you guys had  positive magical miracle with this product?


 Only if you take it with LSD.

Equol is no miracle, or magic pill. Just like every other treatment, it could help with hairloss. A few guys are now taking equol from folexen, so we shall see.

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## dex89

> Only if you take it with LSD.
> 
> Equol is no miracle, or magic pill. Just like every other treatment, it could help with hairloss. A few guys are now taking equol from folexen, so we shall see.


 Thanks for the responds, I will look into this some more. Sorry but what is LSD?

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## niff1250

> Sorry but what is LSD?


 A magic pill

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## neversaynever

> Thanks for the responds, I will look into this some more. Sorry but what is LSD?


 It was a joke. Do not take LSD. Its a recreational drug

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## JJJJrS

> Only if you take it with LSD.


 So this "LSD" could cure hairloss huh? Anyone on the forums give it a shot?

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## Tiger norwood's

> So this "LSD" could cure hairloss huh? Anyone on the forums give it a shot?


 I think LSD could be the cure, just like state of the art hair transplant, it can give you "the illusion" of a full head of hair.

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## Kiwi

Equol made all my hair fall out. It's crap!!!

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## UK_

LSD for hair loss?

Jesus.

I bet somewhere out there some twat is selling hemp oil as a cure for hair loss.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Equol made all my hair fall out. It's crap!!!


 Did it really make your hair fall out?

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## bananana

wtf are you talking about kiwi?!

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## UK_

Hemp for hair.

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## briandesigns

some interesting developments.... kiwi can u elaborate a bit? equol causing a shed? accelerating hairloss? WTF IS HAPPENING TO U!!!

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## alanrudy

Yes Kiwi, please elaborate.  Also, couldn't shed be good if it leads to stronger, more regrowth?  Anyone have any info, whether scientific or actual evidence, on why Equol would have any side effects?  Why just handcuffing DHT would still have side effects?

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## MackJames

> some interesting developments.... kiwi can u elaborate a bit? equol causing a shed? accelerating hairloss? WTF IS HAPPENING TO U!!!


 He's probably yanking your chain.

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## neversaynever

to shed on fin you need to be on it for quite a while. So kiwi might just be messing around to amuse himself. If not, please give more info....

Noone else has reported such a bad shed. Plus, he said it in the middle of all the LSD jokes.

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## chimera

Hi I am new.

I don't remember if it was in this thread or in a thread on another forum, but someone posted a study, in which some men that were administered isoflavones ended up turning into equol producers after three months. I think they were only two or three in a group of ten, I'm not sure.

Now say, do you think I can become an equol producer eating one kilogram of soy-beans (wich is one of the most (If not the most) isoflavones-rich food) a day for about, I don't know, maybe a year or two?

Of course, we don't even know for sure if equol could really help us maintaining our hair, but what the hell, I'm bored anyways.

I will replace all meat in my diet (except fish) for soy-beans, I won't eat anymore eggs neither. Soy-beans, soy-beans and soy-beans, (and a little bit of fish and of course all my veggies, fruits, grains, and all that crap. I have not eaten any dairy since a year I think). It should be easy, since I don't have taste (I lost it when I was younger). I will start in September. 

I know some say eating that much soy could be dangerous (because of the phytoestrogens), but I think I will be all right, and even If I don't, I don't care about the risk, because I am one bad mother******!. Also, I know I won't have any trouble with my proteins, since soy proteins are almost as complete as meat proteins, and I will still be eating some fish anyway.

So... what do you think?, I mean, yeah, I already know you think I'm an idiot, but do you think It will work or not? do you think my body will be able to produce equol after maybe some years?...

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## 2020

with that and some probiotics you may but you still would have to eat soy for the rest of your life in order to produce equol.
Equol is not produced by itself if you don't eat soy

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## bananana

A small update, I've been on equol for 3 weeks now. 
Hm, really nothing major. The itch is still here, maybe a bit decreased. 
No other factors.

I'll report more in the future.

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## 2020

> A small update, I've been on equol for 3 weeks now. 
> Hm, really nothing major. The itch is still here, maybe a bit decreased. 
> No other factors.
> 
> I'll report more in the future.


 how much are you taking?

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## bananana

Hi,
10 mg daily, as recommended.
I really hope my itch goes away, that would mean a whole lot to me.

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## MrBlonde

I was considering taking Folexen (S-equol) to stop my thinnning. I am on Toco8 at the moment, not a month in yet and am seeing no changes. Should I drop Toco8 if I take up Folexen? I know Toco8 rasies test levels and someone on this thread mentioned dropping it if you were taking this. 

Could both together be counter productive or are both together benefical? Or is it a case that nobody knows?

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## bananana

> I was considering taking Folexen (S-equol) to stop my thinnning. I am on Toco8 at the moment, not a month in yet and am seeing no changes. Should I drop Toco8 if I take up Folexen? I know Toco8 rasies test levels and someone on this thread mentioned dropping it if you were taking this. 
> 
> Could both together be counter productive or are both together benefical? Or is it a case that nobody knows?


 I'm wondering about the same thing.
I'm taking toco sorb along equol - contraindications?

Ps, there is this powerful antioxidant called ASTAXANTHIN, derived from algae - it's said to be 550 (!) times more powerful than vitamin E, plus it relieves pain from arthritis - and we know it has a connection with hair loss (inflammation...)

Therefore - I plan on adding this to my regimen and cutting down toco sorb - I've been taking it for almost 6 months, and I cant say I see a difference.

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## Kirby_

I'm more than halfway through my third bottle/tub of Toco 8, absolutely no changes. Highly doubt that it does anything.

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## bananana

> I'm more than halfway through my third bottle/tub of Toco 8, absolutely no changes. Highly doubt that it does anything.


 agreed.  :Frown: 

I think lowering inflammation is the key (or one of). Afore mentioned astaxanthin might help with that.

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## doke

so foloxen is not for mpb it does not state that on there web site and i notice the product at *** is a foloxen thread by the company?

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## bananana

pretty good news from me. I'm 1.5 bottles into equol (4 pill daily), and since 10 days ago my itch has drastically decreased! My estimate would be 80&#37; less. It is a bit stronger on the days I have sex/masturbate more than 2 or 3 times daily.  :Big Grin: 
But I try to regulate that...

I also use a new organic shampoo since a few days ago, I think its danish, from a company called urtekram. I bought it in a local bio & organic shop, it's cheap, but a few people already talked about it and how good it is.

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## Cob984

Notice

Due to challenging economic conditions, Eclipse Nutraceuticals has ceased trading as of 2012.09.24.

Customer support is still available by e-mailing info@folexen.com.

We would like to wish everyone the best in their treatment; we suggest EquolSlim as a viable alternative to Folexen, for those who have found S-equol to be efficacious.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Notice
> 
> Due to challenging economic conditions, Eclipse Nutraceuticals has ceased trading as of 2012.09.24.
> 
> Customer support is still available by e-mailing info@folexen.com.
> 
> We would like to wish everyone the best in their treatment; we suggest EquolSlim as a viable alternative to Folexen, for those who have found S-equol to be efficacious.


 lol
I saw that coming from a mile away

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## bananana

Can't believe it! (or can I?)
Does that mean they were snake oil or? 

Nevertheless, I REALLY have a reduced itch, I don't believe thats a result of placebo. 
What do you guys think? Please be constructive...

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## Ibrium

I was looking for information on bacteria that can convert daidzein to equol, and came across this:

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110318309

It's a pretty recent patent, so I really hope something comes out of it soon... From what I can tell, this should be much more effective at producing equol than the probiotics we can get at the moment.

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