# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Where are the phase IIb results for Bimatoprost?

## outbulk

According to clinicaltrials.gov they finished the study in November 2014 and should have the final results in January 2015:

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01904721

It's May 2015 now, shouldn't they have already published the results? Or do pharma companies keep the data for themselves?

Would like to know what concentration of bimatoprost was safe and effective, so we can make our own.

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## noisette

One member here asked to Allergan when we will have the results, they answered him in 2016. Sorry dude

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## noisette

source : https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...-trial!/page30

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## epipapilla

> According to clinicaltrials.gov they finished the study in November 2014 and should have the final results in January 2015:
> 
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01904721
> 
> It's May 2015 now, shouldn't they have already published the results? Or do pharma companies keep the data for themselves?
> 
> Would like to know what concentration of bimatoprost was safe and effective, so we can make our own.


 I think you have been watching too many Back To The Future films, it is actually March 2015 now!

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## BiqqieSmalls

> One member here asked to Allergan when we will have the results, they answered him in 2016. Sorry dude


 Allergan didn't answer him by saying, "2016" to receive the results. FearTheLoss said, "they have stated results will not be posted until 2016." I would like to know where they said this because I've been scouring over the internet finding anything talking about Phase II results, to no avail.

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## outbulk

> I think you have been watching too many Back To The Future films, it is actually March 2015 now!


 Thanks for pointing that out, English is not my first language.

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## rdawg

I believe it is mandatory for them to post results by 2016 on that website.

Does not mean they wont announce results earlier, but in regards to the last trial, they took quite a few extra months after it was finished to talk about the trial.

I dont think it's good or bad, I have no idea what they are planning, they could just be waiting until they can start phase III for example before talking about IIb.

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## BiqqieSmalls

Don't forget, Allegren just completed a merger with Actavis that was three months long. They're not concerned with posting phase II results. They have been preoccupied with this merger.

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## Coizi

i don't think it is mandatory to post Phase 2 results my friend  :Smile:  they only do that to get the investors happy... just saying

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

I have a hard time believing it wouldn't be as efficacious for hair as it is for eyelashes at the right concentration. It's weird that nothing has been announced, or that  they will wait till next year.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Everything about the merger between Actavis and Allergan states that it's the "combined with highly defensible products and unique pipeline assets from Allergan in the specialty ophthalmology and aesthetic markets" that benefit Actavis the most, as far as new drugs go. 

Can someone tell us if there's something else in their pipeline that could potentially be a huge moneymaker? Something for glaucoma? Silicone breasts? I just don't see the demand being the same as for an effective hair loss treatment.

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## BiqqieSmalls

> I just don't see the demand being the same as for an effective hair loss treatment.


 Hair loss industry is something like a 3 billion dollar market

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Hair loss industry is something like a 3 billion dollar market


 Potentially would be A LOT more than that with effective treatments. Honestly, if bim is great, then I think it makes sense they would keep things quiet until it's the right time for them. Probably when it's time for marketing and a release. 

It's pretty stupid to go "HEY EVERYBODY, Bimatoprost is GREAT for hair loss at 10% concentration!! But we don't have a product to sell you yet!" The reaction would be from us: "Oh, well let's get some powder, mix up proper concentrations and use it ourselves."

They lose money this way.

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## BiqqieSmalls

> Potentially would be A LOT more than that with effective treatments. Honestly, if bim is great, then I think it makes sense they would keep things quiet until it's the right time for them. Probably when it's time for marketing and a release. 
> 
> It's pretty stupid to go "HEY EVERYBODY, Bimatoprost is GREAT for hair loss at 10% concentration!! But we don't have a product to sell you yet!" The reaction would be from us: "Oh, well let's get some powder, mix up proper concentrations and use it ourselves."
> 
> They lose money this way.


 I think it will be great. They've been holding off because of the time commitment with the merger.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I think it will be great. They've been holding off because of the time commitment with the merger.


 I think that makes sense. You don't want to blow all your good news at once, either. The merger has been great for their stock/company value. Having this sort of news in your back pocket would also be very useful when the buzz starts to die down.

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## nave13579

> I think that makes sense. You don't want to blow all your good news at once, either. The merger has been great for their stock/company value. Having this sort of news in your back pocket would also be very useful when the buzz starts to die down.


 Sorry what was the merger? Allergan with Kythera?

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## FearTheLoss

after reading a latanoprost study where 50% of patients had a density increase of 22%+ on average at 20 weeks, I have high hopes for bim. they used a .1% concentration in the study, so I think the key is using a higher concentration.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Sorry what was the merger? Allergan with Kythera?


 No they merged with Actavis, and the stock is through the roof. Allergan and Kythera keep getting mentioned together because both their potential products work on prostaglandins.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> after reading a latanoprost study where 50% of patients had a density increase of 22%+ on average at 20 weeks, I have high hopes for bim. they used a .1% concentration in the study, so I think the key is using a higher concentration.


 .1 x 100 = 10, so if it's 10% concentration they're using, then expect significantly more density and percentage of patients for which it works.

It may be wishful thinking, but by not releasing info about phase 2b has a lot to do with wanting to control how they release good news. Next year no one will care about the merger, they will want to see what Allergan produces from it's R&D.

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## BiqqieSmalls

> I think that makes sense. You don't want to blow all your good news at once, either. The merger has been great for their stock/company value. *Having this sort of news in your back pocket would also be very useful when the buzz starts to die down*.


 Exactly. They worked with top tier consultants who know the market and obviously did their due diligence and thus decided to release results later.

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## FearTheLoss

Yeah but bimatoprost is extremely expensive to produce. I'm not sure they could bring a 10% bim treatment to market at a price that's affordable for anyone.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Yeah but bimatoprost is extremely expensive to produce. I'm not sure they could bring a 10% bim treatment to market at a price that's affordable for anyone.


 even when it's mass-produced all over the world?

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## Dimoxynil

> Yeah but bimatoprost is extremely expensive to produce. I'm not sure they could bring a 10% bim treatment to market at a price that's affordable for anyone.


 There are ways to get wholesale prices down

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Did some digging and came across the most recent patent for bimatoprost for hair loss. This patent was filed in Feb. of 2014, and Published in Oct. of 2014, after they had their phase 2A. Had some really interesting information that could help clear up some about their issues with concentration etc., if anything, it has me feeling a lot more optimistic. 

great quote: "The preferred bimatoprost concentration range is about 2-4%, more preferably about 2.5-3.5%. These preferred bimatoprost ranges allow a surprisingly good balance to be achieved between the wanted pharmacologic effects of the composition and any unwanted side-effects. It had previously been thought that bimatoprost compositions for stimulating growth of hair should have a much lower bimatoprost concentration; this has now surprisingly been found not to be the case."

It also mentions the aim of the drug which is to darken and thicken existing hair, by extending the anagen phase, which is typically 3-5 years. This means by applying bimatoprost daily for a number of weeks, you can change the cycle of your thinning hair and keep it for much longer. There is a lot in there about making thinning hair into terminal hair, which should make people on here happy.

There is also mention of how it would be applied, and there is mention in the patent for gels, foam, cream, lotion, shampoo, and spray. So who knows how it will be delivered to the scalp, but we do know they have a wide range to choose from, and will pick the best option. 

Here it is, if anyone wants to have a look:

https://www.google.com/patents/WO201...ed=0CCQQ6AEwAQ

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## Hairismylife

How about the slick bald scalp?

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## Keki

**** this phase i want bim tomorrow morning, but this concentration means it will be expensive af

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## FearTheLoss

Yes, indeed this news is fantastic, as this hints at their results being positive. However, it will be unaffordable on the black market at this concentration. We will have to wait for it to be released. 

Good find its2014

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> How about the slick bald scalp?


 Thickens existing hair. If there is no follicle present, or if it's so small or vellus, probably won't create cosmetically significant hair.

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## FearTheLoss

> Thickens existing hair. If there is no follicle present, or if it's so small or vellus, probably won't create cosmetically significant hair.


 True, however, I'd guess just like with minoxidil there will be some patients that see ridiculous results every now and then. Man I'm excited to see their results posted. I hope this patent is as telling to bims future as it seems.

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## FearTheLoss

" A 37 year old Hispanic male suffering from male pattern baldness due to androgenetic alopecia applies the 0.2% w/w bimatoprost composition of Table 3 twice daily in areas where hair is noticeably thinning. After 63 days of application, increased growth of hair will be noticed as will be new hair growth as measured by high magnification at the slit lamp biomicroscope and by computer assisted image analysis. After satisfactory levels of hair growth are observed, the patient applies the 0.2% w/w bimatoprost composition only twice a week."

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> True, however,* I'd guess just like with minoxidil there will be some patients that see ridiculous results every now and then*. Man I'm excited to see their results posted. I hope this patent is as telling to bims future as it seems.


 Haha I hope to be one of those people. I thought that quote about concentration was very telling, indeed. The wording was interesting. First, they mentioned they know the right dose in regard to balancing effect and side-effect, THEN they mention that is was thought previously that lower concentrations would be sufficient. Like with any drug, a sweet spot has to be found. Also there's talk of improving delivery to the scalp with the vehicle in the patent.

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## Keki

Sadly the results listed are old, 0.3 bim against min, 3% vs 18% hairs count, i think at 3% will be much better then minox but is a speculation
i found this aswell https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CDIQ6AEwAw 

What if bim in long term damage the alredy shitty scalp fat?
Can bim be dangerous for our eye if they make a lotion-like product at 3%? If we use bim, touch our hairs and then scratch an eye we will be ****ed if they use a 00000000000000% of bim to cure intraocular pressure

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> " A 37 year old Hispanic male suffering from male pattern baldness due to androgenetic alopecia applies the 0.2% w/w bimatoprost composition of Table 3 twice daily in areas where hair is noticeably thinning. After 63 days of application, increased growth of hair will be noticed as will be new hair growth as measured by high magnification at the slit lamp biomicroscope and by computer assisted image analysis. After satisfactory levels of hair growth are observed, the patient applies the 0.2% w/w bimatoprost composition only twice a week."


 That's pretty crazy, considering it's more than 10X less the concentration they are using now

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## FearTheLoss

Yeah, we will just have to wait and see. 

It's really curious that they haven't released the results yet.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Yeah, we will just have to wait and see. 
> 
> It's really curious that they haven't released the results yet.


 It's curious, but I don't think it's bad. I think it's just a question of their stock price. They're riding the wave of their good news and merger with Actavis. I read an article that states one of the reasons why this merger is so valuable to Actavis is not only because of Allergan's existing products, but also the "unique" drugs in the ophthamology and aesthetic pipeline. 

Timing is important to them because they can systematically release news that improves their stock price. They're still riding that merger "wave" and when it runs out - release news about something else, to give it more momentum. Don't blow your wad all at once lol

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## Keki

Guys i'm confused, the old bim trial 0.03% is the phase2a? While the new 2-4% bim trial is the phase2b trial not released yet? So they used the people recruited in the summer 2013?

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Guys i'm confused, the old bim trial 0.03% is the phase2a? While the new 2-4% bim trial is the phase2b trial not released yet? So they used the people recruited in the summer 2013?


 That sounds about right, but phase 2a was .3%, not .03%

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## Keki

Do you think they need to recruit people for phase 3? we have to wait at least 1 year then

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Do you think they need to recruit people for phase 3? we have to wait at least 1 year then


 No, because their Chief Medical Officer had stated if they saw anything positive from a phase 2b they'd immediately gear up and jump in to a phase 3, shortening the time it would take to get to market.

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## Keki

Wait doesn't the phase 3 consist in a large number of people testing? Why do you think they will not recruit more people, i'm confused

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## RobertSe

> Thickens existing hair. If there is no follicle present, or if it's so small or vellus, probably won't create cosmetically significant hair.


 wait, isn't bima thicken and darken vellus hair and even turn alot of them into terminal hair ?

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## Hairismylife

> Thickens existing hair. If there is no follicle present, or if it's so small or vellus, probably won't create cosmetically significant hair.


 According to Cots follicles don't die but sleeping.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> According to Cots follicles don't die but sleeping.


 Yes, but the follicles need to still be producing hair in this case. If they aren't, or if the hairs are so small you can barely see them, it's unlikely that bim will help create cosmetically significant hair.

That's also why he's using a different method to create "follicular neogenesis." It's not as simple as applying a topical compound to your scalp.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> wait, isn't bima thicken and darken vellus hair and even turn alot of them into terminal hair ?


 Yes, and in the patent for their hair growth solution, the most preferred concentration is 3%, 100X the strength of what is used for eyelashes. Even .03% works somewhat well for hair.

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## Energizer

> That's also why he's using a different method to create "follicular neogenesis." It's not as simple as applying a topical compound to your scalp.


 Where can information on follicular neogenesis related to bimataprost be found?

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Where can information on follicular neogenesis related to bimataprost be found?


 Doesn't exist, because that's not what bimatoprost does

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## Energizer

> Doesn't exist, because that's not what bimatoprost does


 Ah, so then what is this other method? Or has it not been divulged?

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Ah, so then what is this other method? Or has it not been divulged?


 Research about follica, that's what im talking about when I say "follicular neogenesis"

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## rdawg

this should at least in theory be much better than Minoxidil.

What I was hoping for in the next few years was essentially an upgrade on our old tools, so say minoxidil gave you 10% growth or thickening, I expect bim to be 2-3X as strong, giving noticable growth, just based on what people got with such a low dose. As well it seems we should be getting an upgrade over fin and dut(finally) soon with all of this PGD2 stuff coming.

I never expected a full-blown cure now, but it seems like we may be getting some bridge products within the next 2-3 years. This is all just speculation btw.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> this should at least in theory be much better than Minoxidil.
> 
> What I was hoping for in the next few years was essentially an upgrade on our old tools, so say minoxidil gave you 10% growth or thickening, I expect bim to be 2-3X as strong, giving noticable growth, just based on what people got with such a low dose. As well it seems we should be getting an upgrade over fin and dut(finally) soon with all of this PGD2 stuff coming.
> 
> I never expected a full-blown cure now,* but it seems like we may be getting some bridge products within the next 2-3 years*. This is all just speculation btw.


 Expect bim to be out much sooner than that.

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## rdawg

> Expect bim to be out much sooner than that.


 I'd say with phase III startup minimum it should take another 9-12 months(recruiting usually takes a couple months+ minimum 6 month trial) 

2 years is a solid guess, based on assessing final results, building up product etc. 3 years if they delay this year a bit, wont take any longer than that. The hype alone though knowing it's going to be released will get me through, anxiously waiting for results here, will suck if this gets canned, I've seen this as having tonnes of potential for a couple years now.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I'd say with phase III startup minimum it should take another 9-12 months(recruiting usually takes a couple months+ minimum 6 month trial) 
> 
> 2 years is a solid guess, based on assessing final results, building up product etc. 3 years if they delay this year a bit, wont take any longer than that. The hype alone though knowing it's going to be released will get me through, anxiously waiting for results here, will suck if this gets canned, I've seen this as having tonnes of potential for a couple years now.


 Dude, you're way off. It was stated by the Chief Medical Officer and the company that at the first sign of any positive results (meaning what they were expecting from a higher concentration) were seen in the phase 2b, they'd immediately gear up for a phase 3 and continue the study, following phase 2b. The intent is to get the drug out there as soon as possible. I'm not sure they need to recruit any more patients, also.

I'd show you where I got this info, but at the moment I'm a little tired. But I do guarantee you, I did read that.

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## rdawg

> Dude, you're way off. It was stated by the Chief Medical Officer and the company that at the first sign of any positive results (meaning what they were expecting from a higher concentration) were seen in the phase 2b, they'd immediately gear up for a phase 3 and continue the study, following phase 2b. The intent is to get the drug out there as soon as possible. I'm not sure they need to recruit any more patients, also.
> 
> I'd show you where I got this info, but at the moment I'm a little tired. But I do guarantee you, I did read that.


 phase III has to have hundreds more patients, phase II is usually only 40-60 patients, phase III's usually have 300-400, mass test. 

I remember the investor call they had saying they werent happy with the results, not sure if they said they would jump right into Phase III, find that speech for me!

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> phase III has to have hundreds more patients, phase II is usually only 40-60 patients, phase III's usually have 300-400, mass test. 
> 
> I remember the investor call they had saying they werent happy with the results, not sure if they said they would jump right into Phase III, find that speech for me!


 Here: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/allergan...the-hard-part/

Sorry, it wasn't the Chief Medical Officer, but the Chief of R&D, Scott Whitcup. As it states in the article 300 men and 300 women were recruited for the initial phase 2 study. 

Also, it states that they'd do 2 phase 3 studies, but I wonder if that's necessary now, given the two phase 2's. However, it's stated in this article that if the Phase 3 study were to begin in late 2012, the drug would be available by 2013 or 2014.  So the phase 3 studies would take approximately 1 year, according to the article. By this logic and timeline, the phase 2b study ended in late 2014, meaning it should become available in 2015 or 2016. *BOOM*. (lol)

Mentioned in the article as well that when they gave an update the last time, their stock jumped about $10 per share. This fits well into my take that the reason they have yet to release any results is because they want to ride out the positive effect of the merger. Then later, release more good news to keep the stock price rising steadily.

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## BiqqieSmalls

> Mentioned in the article as well that when they gave an update the last time, their stock jumped about $10 per share. This fits well into my take that the reason they have yet to release any results is because they want to ride out the positive effect of the merger. Then later, release more good news to keep the stock price rising steadily.


 That's why I practically emptied my bank account to buy $ACT. Buy low sell high

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## rdawg

> Here: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/allergan...the-hard-part/
> 
> Sorry, it wasn't the Chief Medical Officer, but the Chief of R&D, Scott Whitcup. As it states in the article 300 men and 300 women were recruited for the initial phase 2 study. 
> 
> Also, it states that they'd do 2 phase 3 studies, but I wonder if that's necessary now, given the two phase 2's. However, it's stated in this article that if the Phase 3 study were to begin in late 2012, the drug would be available by 2013 or 2014.  So the phase 3 studies would take approximately 1 year, according to the article. By this logic and timeline, the phase 2b study ended in late 2014, meaning it should become available in 2015 or 2016. *BOOM*. (lol)
> 
> Mentioned in the article as well that when they gave an update the last time, their stock jumped about $10 per share. This fits well into my take that the reason they have yet to release any results is because they want to ride out the positive effect of the merger. Then later, release more good news to keep the stock price rising steadily.


 hmm I stand corrected very interesting, I think by two studies they probably mean one for women and one for men? or maybe two 6 month studies?

and the merger thing is a posibility, it was only a couple months ago, they could be waiting until the summer to release news. I have no idea! but It does sound like they can get into phase III right away without recruiting which will save time.

what I wanna know is, where are these 600 people, surely someone can come in here and tell us how their trial went(i know there's confidentiality stuff but still!)

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> hmm I stand corrected very interesting, I think by two studies they probably mean one for women and one for men? or maybe two 6 month studies?
> 
> and the merger thing is a posibility, it was only a couple months ago, they could be waiting until the summer to release news. I have no idea! but It does sound like they can get into phase III right away without recruiting which will save time.
> 
> what I wanna know is, where are these 600 people, surely someone can come in here and tell us how their trial went(i know there's confidentiality stuff but still!)


 I think the merger is definitely the reason. They knew even before the merger how the study was going. This has all been planned out, and the smart way to do it would be to release news when it is time to do so. It's like a poker game - allow your opponent (investors in this case, because they want your money) to keep betting and raise the stakes. When the investors have decided "Ok, that's enough for now, what else have you got?" then give them a little more - perhaps with news of a release, or good news about a phase 2b trial. They throw in more money, and continue to do so, raising the price of the stock even more. It's all about money.

Also, if you were 1 of those 600 people, and it was working for you, would you risk losing this treatment to let others know? Of course not. Because in all likelihood, they will find out, and boot you from the trial.

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## BiqqieSmalls

> I think the merger is definitely the reason. They knew even before the merger how the study was going. This has all been planned out, and the smart way to do it would be to release news when it is time to do so. It's like a poker game - allow your opponent (investors in this case, because they want your money) to keep betting and raise the stakes. When the investors have decided "Ok, that's enough for now, what else have you got?" then give them a little more - perhaps with news of a release, or good news about a phase 2b trial. They throw in more money, and continue to do so, raising the price of the stock even more. It's all about money.


 Bingo!

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Bought 12 bottles of generic bim .03% , gonna use them on my crown. There's some minor thinning left there after fin, but I'm hoping it will make it look like nothing ever happened. 

I wonder if dermarolling helps....

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## Joker

Hey guys, 

Just checking in to add to the confusion/discussion. Like you, I am feeling a little nervous that the bimatoprost results have not yet been released (and that it appears the company has not swiftly moved into Phase 3). I see bimatoprost as an important treatment and also as a signal that maybe setipiprant has promise (due to their mutual reliance on prostaglandin science). 

There seems to be a great inconsistency of messages from Allergan. As 2014COA noted, in 2011 (wow, that's a long time ago) Scott Whitcup mentioned two Phase 3's. But in the company's 2013 10k (http://agn.client.shareholder.com/se...ID=850693-14-2), they mention the existence of two Phase 2's. And then in the 2014 10k (http://agn.client.shareholder.com/se...ID=850693-15-2) there is no mention of any additional Phase 2 or Phase 3 trials (although the existence of these additional trials is not expressly ruled out either). 

Anyways, it seems that the regulatory pathway is at least somewhat unclear. No idea how the merger affects any of this, and whether Actavis has different plans for bimatoprost or different standards for moving into Phase 3 than Allergan. I guess we just sit and wait nervously for a little while longer? :/

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Not sure there's any confusion. Also, nobody knows if they've launched a phase 3, they don't have to say anything about that until 2016. So, it's not that it appears that they haven't. We just don't know for sure. With regard to that article, yeah, it was written in 2011, but it's the outline of their program. Regardless that it's been 4 or so years, that doesn't make the info any less relevant. Every set of clinical studies take years to come to fruition. 

What's positive about this at all is that we know the drug works on hair, and that concentration and delivery were the main issues. If you read that patent I posted, it seems they have cleared that up. I mentioned that article and the patent because I have been piecing together information. 

If you read articles about the merger, it was done in part because of the pipeline products. Specifically, in ophthamology and aesthetics. Bimatoprost for hair falls under aesthetics, and if you look at their pipeline, there isn't a big moneymaker as something that works better than rogaine ANYWHERE on the scalp. Yea, we have to wait, but there is little reason to believe that this won't be the next effective treatment for hair loss.

By the way, the reason they haven't said anything about phase 2b IS because of the merger. It's about stock price, and if you read that article from 2011, it says that the stock jumped $10 a share last time they released any info about the drug. This was also during the thick of the recession. So, news does have an effect, and it's not time to release any yet.

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## rdawg

Don't they have to register the trial on the government website? I dont believe they can hold a phase III behind the scenes correct me if i'm wrong. I dont think they have to release trial results though.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Don't they have to register the trial on the government website? I dont believe they can hold a phase III behind the scenes correct me if i'm wrong. I dont think they have to release trial results though.


 No, they don't have to update us right away. 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/manage-recs/how-edit

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## sdsurfin

All complete speculation.  I hope it turns out well, but as true as they could be, all the things you guys stated could also be the complete opposite.  I personally don't think releasing positive trial info could hurt them at all financially, and find it more plausible that they do not want to release negative results when they are currently riding a good wave due to their merger.  Either way I'm highly skeptical of possible side effects at the high concentrations they are using, we have some evidence of large percentages of people getting puffy eyes from even low concentrations on the hairline and eyes. It's not like this stuff doesn't enter the bloodstream.  I don't see this being a game changer, especially if something like SM or follicept pans out.  the science is much more sophisticated and less accidental with those drugs. I'm really hoping that the next 3 or 4 years provide us with both a safer maintenance drug and a better growth agent than minox.

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## Keki

> All complete speculation.  I hope it turns out well, but as true as they could be, all the things you guys stated could also be the complete opposite.  I personally don't think releasing positive trial info could hurt them at all financially, and find it more plausible that they do not want to release negative results when they are currently riding a good wave due to their merger.  Either way I'm highly skeptical of possible side effects at the high concentrations they are using, we have some evidence of large percentages of people getting puffy eyes from even low concentrations on the hairline and eyes. It's not like this stuff doesn't enter the bloodstream.  I don't see this being a game changer, especially if something like SM or follicept pans out.  the science is much more sophisticated and less accidental with those drugs. I'm really hoping that the next 3 or 4 years provide us with both a safer maintenance drug and a better growth agent than minox.


 
A 3% pure bim in our eyes can destroy our ocular pressure if they use a 0.03 for glaucoma.... scary stuff indeed, but they know this so i'm interested in reading the trial asap

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> All complete speculation.  I hope it turns out well, but as true as they could be, all the things you guys stated could also be the complete opposite.  I personally don't think releasing positive trial info could hurt them at all financially, and find it more plausible that they do not want to release negative results when they are currently riding a good wave due to their merger.  Either way I'm highly skeptical of possible side effects at the high concentrations they are using, we have some evidence of large percentages of people getting puffy eyes from even low concentrations on the hairline and eyes. It's not like this stuff doesn't enter the bloodstream.  I don't see this being a game changer, especially if something like SM or follicept pans out.  the science is much more sophisticated and less accidental with those drugs. I'm really hoping that the next 3 or 4 years provide us with both a safer maintenance drug and a better growth agent than minox.


 Everything *you've* posted here is complete speculation. Mine hasn't been, if you've been following the thread. From their patent for bimatoprost for AGA, published Oct. 2014 (after phase 2a was finished) - 

"The preferred bimatoprost concentration range is about 2-4%, more preferably about 2.5-3.5%. These preferred bimatoprost ranges allow a surprisingly good balance to be achieved between the wanted pharmacologic effects of the composition and any unwanted side-effects. It had previously been thought that bimatoprost compositions for stimulating growth of hair should have a much lower bimatoprost concentration; this has now surprisingly been found not to be the case."

Also, as far as releasing news goes, the merger was announced in Jan. and completed last month. In January, the stock was sold at $219 a share, now it's at $240.22 and keeps climbing. Everywhere you read, it says that the stock is a definite buy, meaning it's going to continue to rise. If you read that article about bim in 2011, it says that when they announced news of the trials (which were positive) the stocked jumped $10 a share, and this was during the thick of the recession. So there is good reason, to not release info if they don't yet have anything to market to us, and the stock continues to climb on its own. 

With regard to trials, you are also wrong, and did not read the article I posted. They had recruited 300 men and 300 women for phase 2, so that when they were ready, they could immediately jump into phase 3. It also states that phase 3 AND release would take a year. NOT 3-4 years. You're pulling that out of nowhere. 

The fact is that the drug works on the hair pathway. Their only issue has been proper concentration and delivery to the scalp. If you read that patent, they seem to have solved that problem. To clarify, everything that I've posted hasn't been speculation, and based on actual evidence. Yeah, I cannot prove they are in phase 3, but every source I have posted shatters the argument of the naysayers. 

When Kythera acquired setipiprant, I posted very positively about the news and provided good reasons to be optimistic. You doubted, and questioned, and thought it was my job to convince you. Now you are all about pgd2 inhibitors. Just look at what I posted and see if that doesn't change your mind. If it does, great. If not, that's fine too. Just don't try and dampen the mood by neglecting the evidence that I have put together by saying it's all speculation. You are wrong in doing so, and just continue to bang whatever drum no matter what.

----------


## sosa56

> Everything *you've* posted here is complete speculation. Mine hasn't been, if you've been following the thread. From their patent for bimatoprost for AGA, published Oct. 2014 (after phase 2a was finished) - 
> 
> "The preferred bimatoprost concentration range is about 2-4%, more preferably about 2.5-3.5%. These preferred bimatoprost ranges allow a surprisingly good balance to be achieved between the wanted pharmacologic effects of the composition and any unwanted side-effects. It had previously been thought that bimatoprost compositions for stimulating growth of hair should have a much lower bimatoprost concentration; this has now surprisingly been found not to be the case."
> 
> Also, as far as releasing news goes, the merger was announced in Jan. and completed last month. In January, the stock was sold at $219 a share, now it's at $240.22 and keeps climbing. Everywhere you read, it says that the stock is a definite buy, meaning it's going to continue to rise. If you read that article about bim in 2011, it says that when they announced news of the trials (which were positive) the stocked jumped $10 a share, and this was during the thick of the recession. So there is good reason, to not release info if they don't yet have anything to market to us, and the stock continues to climb on its own. 
> 
> With regard to trials, you are also wrong, and did not read the article I posted. They had recruited 300 men and 300 women for phase 2, so that when they were ready, they could immediately jump into phase 3. It also states that phase 3 AND release would take a year. NOT 3-4 years. You're pulling that out of nowhere. 
> 
> The fact is that the drug works on the hair pathway. Their only issue has been proper concentration and delivery to the scalp. If you read that patent, they seem to have solved that problem. To clarify, everything that I've posted hasn't been speculation, and based on actual evidence. Yeah, I cannot prove they are in phase 3, but every source I have posted shatters the argument of the naysayers. 
> ...


 I like 2014already, reasonable and intelligent, an asset to this board

----------


## Hairismylife

> I like 2014already, reasonable and intelligent, an asset to this board


 Sometimes too optimistic.  
You know…hairloss world doesnt allow us to be positive from past experience.
Everything got delayed, some were scam finally.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Sometimes too optimistic.  
> You know…hairloss world doesnt allow us to be positive from past experience.
> Everything got delayed, some were scam finally.


 I'm very optimistic about the things we should be most optimistic about. Bimatoprost is one of them because we know it works. Eyelashes are hair, just smaller in scale. It even works on scalp hair to some degree at the same concentration (.03%). This drug is potentially the soonest, most effective treatment topical treatment to come. I've done a lot of research on it, and the only reason I post is to share my findings. I want people on here to feel optimistic as well, based on facts. I don't try and give people false hope, because I want them to agree with me and affirm my beliefs somehow. If I were too optimistic, I'd be excited about follicept (which I think is probably snakeoil, since he's trying to market directly to desperate people on a hair loss forum) and other things. I'm picky what I'm excited about, and that's because I do my homework. 

There is a negative bias on this forum, and it's too easy. It's a cop out. Prostaglandin technology is worth the hype because it actually has a definitive role in hair loss. If hairs don't cycle properly, it leads to eventual loss. Bimatoprost has been proven to keep hairs in the anagen phase longer, and setipiprant should halt hair loss because it blocks the out-of-balance pgd2 signal to trigger early catagen and telogen phases. Bimatoprost should be here much sooner than setipiprant, so I'm more focused on that.

----------


## Occulus

> There is a negative bias on this forum, and it's too easy. It's a cop out. Prostaglandin technology is worth the hype because it actually has a definitive role in hair loss. If hairs don't cycle properly, it leads to eventual loss. Bimatoprost has been proven to keep hairs in the anagen phase longer, and setipiprant should halt hair loss because it blocks the out-of-balance pgd2 signal to trigger early catagen and telogen phases. Bimatoprost should be here much sooner than setipiprant, so I'm more focused on that.


 Great, but where's the results?  I was really, really excited about Bim, and I was pretty sure it would be available around 2016, but there's no good reason for them to hold back the results.  The idea that they are somehow keeping the results in reserve to boost the stock price is nonsense - that's not how the market works.  Individual investors don't drive markets, analysts and equity traders do, and they have more or less open access to corporate data.  On the Q2 earnings call, analysts will want to know how Bim did, period.  The only reason NOT to announce is because they aren't going forward with it, which is what they will have to explain on the next earnings call.  Otherwise, they'd let the market know now.  

Sorry, it didn't work out as planned.

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

I have to agree with your posts 2014.

----------


## barfacan

2014's unrelenting optimism makes me *sick*

----------


## Hairismylife

> Great, but where's the results?  I was really, really excited about Bim, and I was pretty sure it would be available around 2016, but there's no good reason for them to hold back the results.  The idea that they are somehow keeping the results in reserve to boost the stock price is nonsense - that's not how the market works.  Individual investors don't drive markets, analysts and equity traders do, and they have more or less open access to corporate data.  On the Q2 earnings call, analysts will want to know how Bim did, period.  The only reason NOT to announce is because they aren't going forward with it, which is what they will have to explain on the next earnings call.  Otherwise, they'd let the market know now.  
> 
> Sorry, it didn't work out as planned.


 You mean they dropped Bim?
Not likely as reflected from the stock price trend recently,

----------


## thechamp

So your telling me bin didn't work out that's a massive kick in the guts again to hair loss sufferers !!

----------


## sascha

> So your telling me bin didn't work out that's a massive kick in the guts again to hair loss sufferers !!


 Yeah jump from a statement to a conclusion. Smart move.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Great, but where's the results?  I was really, really excited about Bim, and I was pretty sure it would be available around 2016, but there's no good reason for them to hold back the results.  The idea that they are somehow keeping the results in reserve to boost the stock price is nonsense - that's not how the market works.  Individual investors don't drive markets, analysts and equity traders do, and they have more or less open access to corporate data.  On the Q2 earnings call, analysts will want to know how Bim did, period.  The only reason NOT to announce is because they aren't going forward with it, which is what they will have to explain on the next earnings call.  Otherwise, they'd let the market know now.  
> 
> Sorry, it didn't work out as planned.


 So you're saying that because they haven't released results within 2 months of the trial, when last time they took even longer to do so means they dropped the program. OK lol. And if you're claiming to know a lot about how the stock market works, and that analysts have open access - just look at the stock price. Was sold at $219 in Jan after the merger, now is at $240.22 and continues to climb. Everywhere you read, it's a definite BUY according to analysts. So sorry, but you're wrong. This was the easy negativity I was talking about. Believing in a drug because of it's actual effectiveness, then because we don't get the news when we want it turns in to a bust. 

Your mood about these things is any way the wind blows.

----------


## RobertSe

> Great, but where's the results?  I was really, really excited about Bim, and I was pretty sure it would be available around 2016, but there's no good reason for them to hold back the results.  The idea that they are somehow keeping the results in reserve to boost the stock price is nonsense - that's not how the market works.  Individual investors don't drive markets, analysts and equity traders do, and they have more or less open access to corporate data.  On the Q2 earnings call, analysts will want to know how Bim did, period.  The only reason NOT to announce is because they aren't going forward with it, which is what they will have to explain on the next earnings call.  Otherwise, they'd let the market know now.  
> 
> Sorry, it didn't work out as planned.


 you talk out of your a**, results often take a long time to be realised (up to a 1 year)

----------


## Occulus

> So you're saying that because they haven't released results within 2 months of the trial, when last time they took even longer to do so means they dropped the program. OK lol. And if you're claiming to know a lot about how the stock market works, and that analysts have open access - just look at the stock price. Was sold at $219 in Jan after the merger, now is at $240.22 and continues to climb. Everywhere you read, it's a definite BUY according to analysts. So sorry, but you're wrong. This was the easy negativity I was talking about. Believing in a drug because of it's actual effectiveness, then because we don't get the news when we want it turns in to a bust. 
> 
> Your mood about these things is any way the wind blows.


 Then why weren't the results discussed at the q1 call?  And why do you think the $20 delta has anything to do with the bim trial?

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

> And why do you think the $20 delta has anything to do with the bim trial?


 The $20 delta doesn't have anything to do with the bim trial. It corresponds to the merger.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Then why weren't the results discussed at the q1 call?  And why do you think the $20 delta has anything to do with the bim trial?


 There could be 1,000 different reasons why not. I don't proclaim to know why. Just because trial information hasn't yet been presented doesn't mean it has failed. You are convinced that is the ONE explanation. It could be that they don't have to, or that because they don't yet have a product ready to market (since phase 2b success = phase 3 and launch). You have cherry-picked your argument based on a small portion of the information I have presented. Read the new patent, there is loads of positive information regarding a new composition for bimatoprost, filed and published after the phase 2A trial. 

I also have not attributed the stock price increase to the bim trial. YOU proclaimed to know a lot about how the stock market works and that analysts and equity traders have open access to corporate data. Results of the trial do have an effect on stock price, as past history has shown. If using this argument about analysts and traders, and the stock price continues to climb and is widely regarded as a definite buy (since they have insider knowledge, according to you), it could possibly be attributed to success in pipeline R&D. Everything I've read about the merger has highlighted the unique  products in Allergan's ophthalmology and aesthetic pipeline. Bimatoprost falls under aesthetics, and you should have a look what they have in their pipeline for aesthetics. Let me know if you find a bigger moneymaker than a very effective, side-effect free, topical hair loss solution. 

I'm not overly concerned about stock price in regard to success of bim, but this has been the only thing you have clung to. The only issue this drug has had during trials has been concentration and delivery to the scalp. Read the patent, they cover this issue and explain how the issue is fixed. Bottom line: this drug works in the hair pathway, they increased the concentration 1000% and enhanced chemical penetration. 

Sorry you don't get that positive reinforcement treat of news, so that you can feel good about it. I suggest you do more research, and let that decide how you feel about how it will do.

----------


## cocacola

Analysts don't have anymore information than what u find in earnings calls, press releases or md&a. Otherwise its a material non public information that if you trade on, its a crime.

----------


## Occulus

> Analysts don't have anymore information than what u find in earnings calls, press releases or md&a. Otherwise its a material non public information that if you trade on, its a crime.


 LOL - but they do, and they do.  Don't be naive.  There's no positive reason not to discuss the results.  I'll give them until Q2 to say something.  If they don't by then, it's DOA.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Analysts don't have anymore information than what u find in earnings calls, press releases or md&a. Otherwise its a material non public information that if you trade on, its a crime.


 Ah so, Occulus' argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

----------


## Joker

Occulus, 

When did the Q1 earnings call take place? The Actavis website doesn't have it posted (http://ir.actavis.com/phoenix.zhtml?...l-reportsOther). Historically, Actavis has discussed Q1 results in late April, early May. Allergan does the same, and I wouldn't expect them to have a separate call post-merger. 

Does it go without saying that bimatoprost - or any other particular drug currently in development - must be discussed on the earnings call? What if no analyst asks a question about the bimatoprost program? Is the company obligated to volunteer all information related to every clinical trial on each earnings call? I, too, worry about bimatoprost (I worry about everything in this industry), but I don't get the definitiveness of your thinking on this particular issue.

Some additional info - verbatim from the Actavis Q4 2014 call (which took place in February of 2015): 

"So today's meeting just to keep in perspective will be Actavis standalone, this will be an Actavis standalone financials, Actavis standalone business review and Actavis standalone R&D pipeline review." - CEO Brent Saunders (http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/call-tran...#ixzz3WXPmPCEM) So clearly there would be no discussion of bimatoprost there. 

And then - verbatim from Allergan Q4 2014 call (which also took place in February of 2015):

"As a result of the November 17th announced acquisition of the company by Actavis, Allergan will not be providing earnings or sales guidance for fiscal year 2015." (http://agn.client.shareholder.com/re...leaseID=894782) So Allergan hadn't completed their study until January 2015, and thus wouldn't have been able to discuss the results on any past earnings call. Nor will they be holding any future earnings calls. 

TL;DR - I do not know what information Occulus is referring to. This doesn't necessarily mean he is wrong. But we shouldn't jump to any conclusions as yet.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Everything *you've* posted here is complete speculation. Mine hasn't been, if you've been following the thread. From their patent for bimatoprost for AGA, published Oct. 2014 (after phase 2a was finished) - 
> 
> "The preferred bimatoprost concentration range is about 2-4%, more preferably about 2.5-3.5%. These preferred bimatoprost ranges allow a surprisingly good balance to be achieved between the wanted pharmacologic effects of the composition and any unwanted side-effects. It had previously been thought that bimatoprost compositions for stimulating growth of hair should have a much lower bimatoprost concentration; this has now surprisingly been found not to be the case."
> 
> Also, as far as releasing news goes, the merger was announced in Jan. and completed last month. In January, the stock was sold at $219 a share, now it's at $240.22 and keeps climbing. Everywhere you read, it says that the stock is a definite buy, meaning it's going to continue to rise. If you read that article about bim in 2011, it says that when they announced news of the trials (which were positive) the stocked jumped $10 a share, and this was during the thick of the recession. So there is good reason, to not release info if they don't yet have anything to market to us, and the stock continues to climb on its own. 
> 
> With regard to trials, you are also wrong, and did not read the article I posted. They had recruited 300 men and 300 women for phase 2, so that when they were ready, they could immediately jump into phase 3. It also states that phase 3 AND release would take a year. NOT 3-4 years. You're pulling that out of nowhere. 
> 
> The fact is that the drug works on the hair pathway. Their only issue has been proper concentration and delivery to the scalp. If you read that patent, they seem to have solved that problem. To clarify, everything that I've posted hasn't been speculation, and based on actual evidence. Yeah, I cannot prove they are in phase 3, but every source I have posted shatters the argument of the naysayers. 
> ...


 I'm not speculating about anything. I have no idea whether it was a success or not.  But I'm sure as hell not convinced by any of your "evidence".  You may be right, but none of what you just said is based on concrete facts.  Just because they said they will jump into phase three does not mean they do not have to recruit more patients or announce the trial. these are standard procedures which have not been initiated.  Also, there is really no reason to withhold good results. it just doesn't happen.  like occulus said, analysts ARE privy to information whether you think they are or not.  It is certainly possible that they were successful but are working out further kinks or regrouping for a phase three, or that they have not failed, but it is much more likely that they did not have impressive results and are withholding info because they do not want to harm the recent surge in their stock.  We will see.  Until they release more info neither of us have any concrete evidence that it went either badly or well.

As far as PGD2 blockers, I am certain that they play a role, and am optimistic about possibilities, but I also have no idea whether they will provide good therapeutic benefit. it really still remains to be seen.  I'm not trying to be a debbie downer, but you are definitely being optimistic without considering other very real, and more probable possibilities.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I'm not speculating about anything. I have no idea whether it was a success or not.  But I'm sure as hell not convinced by any of your "evidence".  You may be right, but none of what you just said is based on concrete facts.  *Just because they said they will jump into phase three does not mean they do not have to recruit more patients or announce the trial. these are standard procedures which have not been initiated.  Also, there is really no reason to withhold good results. it just doesn't happen.  like occulus said, analysts ARE privy to information whether you think they are or not.*  It is certainly possible that they were successful but are working out further kinks or regrouping for a phase three, or that they have not failed, but it is much more likely that they did not have impressive results and are withholding info because they do not want to harm the recent surge in their stock.  We will see.  Until they release more info neither of us have any concrete evidence that it went either badly or well.
> 
> As far as PGD2 blockers, I am certain that they play a role, and am optimistic about possibilities, but I also have no idea whether they will provide good therapeutic benefit. it really still remains to be seen.  I'm not trying to be a debbie downer, but you are definitely being optimistic without considering other very real, and more probable possibilities.


 I appreciate your point of view, and I agree to a certain extent. I've bolded what I disagree with because there are some questions I have about those statements. In that article I posted, it was said by the chief of R&D that at the first positive sign, they'd immediately gear up for a phase 3, be it recruiting, whatever they need to do in order to get it ready immediately. I think a good reason to not release info is, if it is positive, then release that news when it is time to do so. Part of what Actavis wanted with this acquisition is to become a top pharmaceutical company, and not just one that produces generic drugs. It's been mentioned a lot in articles that one of the big reasons this merger went through was because Actavis also wanted what Allergan had as existing drugs (mostly botox, and new uses for botox) and what is in its pipeline. If successful, bimatoprost would be HUGE. Probably over a billion annually, as stated by the company. Analysts don't have complete transparent open-access to company files, that would implicate A LOT of insider trading and would ultimately be bad for companies. Even though, I can see how the urge would be great. 

The news could be good or bad, but I'm on the side of good because we already know this drug works for hair. As I've said before, their only issues were related to concentration and penetration enhancement to the scalp. That patent I posted, pretty much solves that issue. I think the negative perspective comes from, that as people waiting for new treatments and such, we've seen a lot of failures. That's where the only shred of negativity comes from, and has nothing to do with the drug itself, the company, or the facts surrounding the trials. 

Like I've stated earlier, phase 2b success has the implication of a phase 3 and a launch. It would pretty much be letting the cat out of the bag. Being quiet, while continuing the study (it says "this study is ongoing but not recruiting participants" on clinicaltrials.gov) ensures that when it is time to announce success, you actually HAVE a product to market. It makes no sense to announce results now, the stock is doing fine on its own. Yes, normally good news is released at the time it occurs, but given what's happened with this company recently, it actually makes sense to hold back. 

As the saying goes: "no news is good news."

----------


## Keki

can someone tell me what's the difference between bim and ketobim, seems extremely cheap the second one, it's useless?

----------


## Keith

A close relative of mine who holds a high position in the pharmaceutical sector confirmed to me that Allergan/Actavis are *NOT* continuing with the development of Bimatoprost... That is a real bummer if you ask me... Hope he is not right.

----------


## Hairismylife

> A close relative of mine who holds a high position in the pharmaceutical sector confirmed to me that Allergan/Actavis are *NOT* continuing with the development of Bimatoprost... That is a real bummer if you ask me... Hope he is not right.


 This is the worst news of the year.

----------


## Trouse5858

God dammit  :Frown:

----------


## breakbot

After ru and neosh101, it seems that bimatoprost will be the next dissapointment.
Ιt must be some kind of curse or something which wants us to live with this shit-finasteride.

----------


## Clion1995

Anyone else find it sketchy that the one post Keith has is in this thread, after that heated argument? (Don't trust Keith)

----------


## Clion1995

And he just joined today?!?!? Don't let your hopes down people we most likely have a troll.

----------


## Keki

Your relative must be in allergan to know that, like the boards of directors and no one else. I call bullshit or annedotal shit

----------


## dus

Keith is shorting Allergan with his life savings right now. I would if I had reliable insider info.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Wow, just wow. Someone ("Keith") made a phony account, and a phony story so they could "win" an "argument" on hair loss forum. Sad.

----------


## Clion1995

That was an epic fail Keith.

----------


## sdsurfin

I doubt keith is a troll.  I find it very realistic that allergan is not continuing bimatoprost, and this, if true, which it probably is, confirms that.  It is somewhat annoying that people can drop news like this without a bit of further information to establish their credibility.

There's just no reason for allergan to not have released their results if they were good, and if they were bad it makes a lot of sense, seeing that they don't want to ruin their current momentum.  

This is not the cure guys, was never much better than minox, and at high concentrations has sides.  At least we know what not to try.  Hopefully follicept, SM, and setipiprant prove to be more useful.  This is a difficult condition to rectify.

----------


## dus

> I doubt keith is a troll.


 Of course you doubt it because his weird coming out post aligns with your speculation. Anyway this thread is going nowhere. All we can do is wait.

----------


## Clion1995

Second what dus said

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

> Of course you doubt it because his weird coming out post aligns with your speculation. Anyway this thread is going nowhere. All we can do is wait.


 This.

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

> A close relative of mine who holds a high position in the pharmaceutical sector confirmed to me that Allergan/Actavis are *NOT* continuing with the development of Bimatoprost... That is a real bummer if you ask me... Hope he is not right.


 Lolz u wot m8

----------


## sdsurfin

Idon't like that it aligns with my speculation. nor do i care if I'm correct about this, I don't come on here to argue.  

But there's really no reason for anyone to make this stuff up, just like there's no reason for allergan to withhold their results if they are good.  This is another treatment you can kiss goodbye, don't bother waiting another year for it with your hopes up.

----------


## breakbot

> Idon't like that it aligns with my speculation. nor do i care if I'm correct about this, I don't come on here to argue.  
> 
> But there's really no reason for anyone to make this stuff up, just like there's no reason for allergan to withhold their results if they are good.  This is another treatment you can kiss goodbye, don't bother waiting another year for it with your hopes up.


 I agree. There's no way if they had good results not to announce in my opinion.
Who cares if you are wrong or not?
Cb is the next hope and i believe it will be on the market as i can assume from cosmo's information.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Idon't like that it aligns with my speculation. nor do i care if I'm correct about this, I don't come on here to argue.  
> 
> But there's really no reason for anyone to make this stuff up, just like there's no reason for allergan to withhold their results if they are good.  This is another treatment you can kiss goodbye, don't bother waiting another year for it with your hopes up.


 lol you don't come on here to argue? c'mon. Last time with phase 2a they took months to release results. Your endless negative speculation is based on nothing. You argued relentlessly against me posting positive news about kythera and set. Now, I've been posting a lot about about bim because it's so close and based on prostaglandin science, just like with kythera. Cots mentiond a pgf2 analog many times with his pgd2 discovery, and it's even mentioned in the pgd2 blocker patent.

----------


## sdsurfin

I was being fair minded at all times.  I am still holding out to see what happens with kythera, and it could also end with something non-marketable. Gotta wait and see with that one. PGD2 pathways definitely play a role in hair loss, but we don't really know to what extent they are a keystone, or if targeting these pathways is the best form of therapy.  I don't think bim is totally useless, but that doesn't mean it can be marketed. It might not be effective enough or it might come with too many side effects at high doses. 

Nothing about the current news is encouraging to me, and i don't see why anyone would come on here and tell us that they heard negative rumors and be lying about that.  much more likely that they indeed do have a connect that heard bad news.  Yes, sometimes it takes a while to release results, but the company was very clear in stating that they will not release it til next year. this could mayyyyybe be a positive sign, but the fact is that they have not started a phase 3 trials, have not even talked about doing so, and now we have someone claiming to have inside info that it failed.  hard to be optimistic, sorry.  I wanted them to have a good product as much as you did.  I'm more excited about the science behind follicept, and hoping they can bridge us to something like replicel which might be a more permanent fix.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

I don't think it's a "fact" they haven't started phase 3, and they talked about it if phase 2b was successful. They don't have to post or make announcements right away unless they choose to. I posted info earlier from the clinical trials website, backing that up. I still think you're ignoring info listed in the patent which highlights that they've found a concentration range that has the wanted effectiveness without the unwanted side-effects, but you keep saying the same thing.

Internet trolls do exist, and I find it odd that this person signed up just now to make one post and then never sign in again to clarify, specify, or take any questions about what was said. If they had in mind to be helpful and informative, they would've stuck around. It was a pathetic attempt to troll, that's it. This "source" is very, very unreliable. People should be looking to the science, and that patent.

----------


## Hairismylife

Tbh I'm getting more and more negative on Bim.
Their delay on announcement and progress clearly state that they have some problems on Phase2b result.
The question left now is WHAT problems.

----------


## hellouser

More incompetence from biotechs/pharmaceuticals? How many months has it been since they were supposed to release results?

Why does this ALWAYS happen with hair loss news? DELAYS. DELAYS. DELAYS. DELAYS. DELAYS. DELAYS. DELAYS. DELAYS.

----------


## Keki

Guys, bim and lata and trava works, and works very well, i've seen some pics of 0,03, 0.02 and 0.1 with trava and lata and it works like magic to some people, something like cover all the bald spot in 1 month (legit photo not something from scammer seller), if bim is the same thing there is no way they failed with 1 and more %, NO WAY, so IF ALLERGAN decide to stop the treatment it's for economical issue in mass production, like they need to sell something around the <100$ range and it's very hard when now a 0.03 cost 500€, this is the only real issue, but when they decided to test 10x more bim i think they knew what will be the final price if worked, otherwise they would never begin the trial in first place

----------


## Hairismylife

> Guys, bim and lata and trava works, and works very well, i've seen some pics of 0,03, 0.02 and 0.1 with trava and lata and it works like magic to some people, something like cover all the bald spot in 1 month (legit photo not something from scammer seller), if bim is the same thing there is no way they failed with 1 and more %, NO WAY, so IF ALLERGAN decide to stop the treatment it's for economical issue in mass production, like they need to sell something around the <100$ range and it's very hard when now a 0.03 cost 500€, this is the only real issue, but when they decided to test 10x more bim i think they knew what will be the final price if worked, otherwise they would never begin the trial in first place


 Not essentially economic consideration, maybe sides.
For the photos I always doubt it in internet world.
Allergan's recent practice is smashing my hope on it.

----------


## Keki

I trust that photos, come from a doc who let me see some scalp pics, so no way they are shopped or scam, he told me some patients discontinued for money reason (eh hundread of € or more for a freaking lotion), very few had some sort of nausea the rest nothing at all (we are talking low %), he had only few patients under "prost", like 20-25 people who were ****ed otherwise (girls and people with sides)

It works guys (if bim works like trava and lata), ofc he maybe let me see some "very good responder" but when it works works well like minox or more, but this is no news, even with the old trial there were people with very good improvement but the % were less then minox, for this reason i think with 1% or more the responders exploded, if this is dose related

----------


## Hairismylife

> I trust that photos, come from a doc who let me see some scalp pics, so no way they are shopped or scam, he told me some patients discontinued for money reason (eh hundread of € or more for a freaking lotion), very few had some sort of nausea the rest nothing at all (we are talking low %), he had only few patients under "prost", like 20-25 people who were ****ed otherwise (girls and people with sides)
> 
> It works guys (if bim works like trava and lata), ofc he maybe let me see some "very good responder" but when it works works well like minox or more, but this is no news, even with the old trial there were people with very good improvement but the % were less then minox, for this reason i think with 1% or more the responders exploded, if this is dose related


 Can the lotion last for one month?

----------


## Keki

ofc it last for one month even more (i think they sell 100ml) but 1) you have to find a very good doc who know his shit, or convince the 95% of ignorant docs you need something that's not fina or minox and off label in the prescription
2) you have to be rich 3) you have to be lucky as **** being a good responder with this % so ****ig low 4) a good pharmacy who can give you a good lotion and not a messy shit

Basically the fina+minox treatment is now the best option by far, but i have said nothig new, the old trial had 8% of people with very good improvement while minox 67 iirc, so 1 every 10 people for something so expesive is retard as **** right now...

I read about a rich guy who spent thousands for a 0.1% lotion of latano and he got only some vellus, no miracle so i repeat we must wait the 1 or more % to have a good product for everyone

----------


## Keki

Guys i can't find allergan pipeline, they removed the page... just why? Maybe they are going to update it and we will have a good or bas news soon...

----------


## joel203

Looking like game over for Bim

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Looking like game over for Bim


 Yea? What do you know? Nada.

----------


## Scientalk56

Replicel is dead. Aderans is dead. HISTOGEN is dead, Bim is dead. Who's next?

----------


## Hairismylife

> Replicel is dead. Aderans is dead. HISTOGEN is dead, Bim is dead. Who's next?


 Stop spreading bullshit.  
Replicel isn't dead, instead they are progressing to phase2b.
Read more before posting.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Replicel is dead. Aderans is dead. HISTOGEN is dead, Bim is dead. Who's next?


 I saw your thread - "nothing is coming WAHHHHHH, WAHHHHH, the sky is falling, WAAHHHHH" 

Stop spreading BS.

----------


## Hairismylife

I really can't understand the thought of the naysayers.
Seems they're very happy to see nothing works.

----------


## Keki

You know what we should send a mail to che ceo or someone like that explaining the enthusiasm and hope on bim, sent by every community, maybe we list every forum interested, so we can show them there are thousands of people who are ****ing waiting so hard for this product and we will buy it even if it's result are not extremely better then minox, maybe they will trash it, maybe not but at least we showed them our interest
We don't know what they are doing and maybe they don't care at all about the internet bald community (i think they care enough to read at least), but if they decide to trash bim because it's the same as minox well i'm not ok, we will have another weapon at least
We must do all we can to show interest, maybe a tard in their team thought "they will not buy it if it's not better then rogain, so let's cut this millions and stop everything", i don't want any regret and any  ru 2.0 all over again, bim must reach phase 3 NOW and we need a confirm

Maybe they will sent back a hint, like "ok guys don't worry we appreciate it, just wait" that will be awsome

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Hey guys, we're all in wait-and-see mode for this drug, but I came across some more interesting info about Allergan/Actavis. Turns out, Actavis will undergo a name change to Allergan towards the end of the year. They've also taken down their pipeline page from their website. A lot of people on here have the habit of going very negative if something happens like that - they think "oh they've taken down that page, they must be dumping their pipeline products." No, just no. 

Actavis is interested in building a stronger brand, expanding, and becoming one of the largest, most valuable pharmaceutical companies in the world.  That is why they agreed to buy Allergan (for $13 Billion more than any competitor), based on their existing products (namely botox) and what is in their pipeline. I may be wrong about this (but I doubt it) - once Actavis becomes Allergan by name and brand, they're going to need those new pipeline products to lift them and their brand into the big time. News of new, very effective and lucrative products also build their brand. Bimatoprost is one of those products - we know because it works, and that is undeniable (we don't know the results of the phase 2b trial, but they do). Every bit of news I could find shows that if successful, bimatoprost will be released late 2015/early 2016. Another product they plan to release as well in 2016 is DARPin for macular degeneration. They stand to make A LOT of money off of these drugs, and they solve problems for large markets of unsatisfied people. 

My theory about why they haven't released any news is what I just posted. If you really think about it, it makes sense. Name change -> new extremely lucrative and effective products -> increased revenue -> bigger brand. They're going to need to this news, because it is very valuable to them in timing how to become a much bigger brand, which is all part of Actavis' plan. The news is essential, and right now it belongs to them. In time, we'll know as well, and hopefully that will mean a new highly effective product which belongs to us.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

If anyone wants to deny that this product won't work very well - have a look at this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3545535/

Should change your mind.

----------


## breakbot

> If anyone wants to deny that this product won't work very well - have a look at this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3545535/
> 
> Should change your mind.


 You are obsessed with bimatoprost. You try to conviece everybody with so passion just like if you won't make your point it won't be released by actavis. 
If they planned to move on phase 3 we propably would know it. It's so simple.
Cb0301 has many many chances to be on the market, so put your energy there.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> You are obsessed with bimatoprost. You try to conviece everybody with so passion just like if you won't make your point it won't be released by actavis. 
> If they planned to move on phase 3 we propably would know it. It's so simple.
> Cb0301 has many many chances to be on the market, so put your energy there.


 Well, cause I'm pretty certain I'm right, and I'm trying to be informative and bring positivity to the message board. However, it is a waiting game, so I won't log on at all in the near future and we'll see what comes of it.

----------


## Justinian

For people doubting the timespan, simply look at the previous trial.

"First received: March 28, 2011"
"Results First Received: March 3, 2014"
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...37?sect=X70156

It was a 6 month trial. So it took about 2 years for results to be posted, give or take.

And the new one:
"First received: July 18, 2013
Last updated: April 10, 2015"

So if it was released the same amount of time after first received as the previous trial, it would be July 2016. It takes time for these things. When they say "phase 3 starts immediately after if results are positive" that probably means like 6 months. First - there is data collection after a trial. Second - you have to prepare/design the new trial, which cost money. They probably won't start this until positive results are received or else they may be wasting their money.

There are some reasons to doubt bimatoprost, but the timeline isn't one.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> For people doubting the timespan, simply look at the previous trial.
> 
> "First received: March 28, 2011"
> "Results First Received: March 3, 2014"
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...37?sect=X70156
> 
> It was a 6 month trial. So it took about 2 years for results to be posted, give or take.
> 
> And the new one:
> ...


 I'm not gonna keep going about this, but they selected 300 men and 300 women for phase 2 so that if results were positive, they could immediately jump into phase 3. The number of recruited people is there, and they've already designed the trial (why would phase 3 protocol be any different from phase 2?). Data collection took from Nov to Jan.

Please tell me, since you believe timeline isn't the issue here, what are the reasons to doubt? I find it hard to doubt at all, given everything I've read.

----------


## Justinian

Well I just read this the other day: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/fa...for-women.html
"Dr. Piliang said she expects Latisse’s results to be less striking on the head than on the lashes because the drug works by shifting more hair from the resting phase to the growing phase. For lashes, only about 30 percent of the hair is in the growing phase at any given time, she said, but on the scalp, that figure is 80 or 90 percent."

The 2a results aren't impressive and they tested 3 different doses (all very small, but they don't list the exact ones), so we'll have to wait and see how much the dose actually matters when increased greatly.

----------


## Hairismylife

> I'm not gonna keep going about this, but they selected 300 men and 300 women for phase 2 so that if results were positive, they could immediately jump into phase 3. The number of recruited people is there, and they've already designed the trial (why would phase 3 protocol be any different from phase 2?). Data collection took from Nov to Jan.
> 
> Please tell me, since you believe timeline isn't the issue here, what are the reasons to doubt? I find it hard to doubt at all, given everything I've read.


 Give up on Bim.
You're blindly optimistic.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Give up on Bim.
> You're blindly optimistic.


 haha I'm not sure you know what the phrase "blindly optimistic" means. I've based my enthusiasm solely on facts. By those facts, I have a right to be optimistic. Please provide valid arguments, and correct usage of phrasing.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Well I just read this the other day: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/fa...for-women.html
> "Dr. Piliang said she expects Latisse’s results to be less striking on the head than on the lashes because the drug works by shifting more hair from the resting phase to the growing phase. For lashes, only about 30 percent of the hair is in the growing phase at any given time, she said, but on the scalp, that figure is 80 or 90 percent."
> 
> The 2a results aren't impressive and they tested 3 different doses (all very small, but they don't list the exact ones), so we'll have to wait and see how much the dose actually matters when increased greatly.


 Hmm interesting. I don't see how that conclusion is drawn, since what mpb is, is when hairs spend less time in anagen and more time in catagen to the point of loss. So, the drug would be helping the follicles undergoing loss and shutdown to produce more hairs in anagen. By nature of the balding man's scalp, less % of hairs will be in anagen.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

New paper published in April 2015, called "Promising Alternative Clinical Uses of Prostaglandin F2a Analogs: Beyond the Eyelashes."

https://es.fagron.com/sites/default/...staglandin.pdf

Doesn't state any new information, but is encouraging given the publication date.

----------


## hellouser

> New paper published in April 2015, called "Promising Alternative Clinical Uses of Prostaglandin F2a Analogs: Beyond the Eyelashes."
> 
> https://es.fagron.com/sites/default/...staglandin.pdf
> 
> Doesn't state any new information, but is encouraging given the publication date.


 Encouraging would be to see the Bimatoprost results. Doesn't look like anyone cares.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Encouraging would be to see the Bimatoprost results. Doesn't look like anyone cares.


 True that

----------


## rdawg

> Encouraging would be to see the Bimatoprost results. Doesn't look like anyone cares.


 "Blume-Peytavi et al23 performed a randomized,
double-blind, placebo-controlled pilot study of
16 men with androgenetic alopecia, applying
topical latanoprost 0.1% daily on the right or left
frontotemporal mini-zones. After 24 weeks of treatment,
the latanoprost-treated site demonstrated a
significant increase in hair density compared with
baseline (P \ .001) and placebo site (P = .0004). Besides a localized erythematous reaction, no
adverse events were reported. Despite these
findings, in a case report of a woman with female
pattern hair loss treated with injected bimatoprost, a
similar response was not seen.24"

i'd say that's pretty encouraging. positive response and no adverse affects at 0.1% solution, Isn't bim using a 1-3% solution?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Yeah, here's a quote from their patent, filed in feb 14, published in Oct 14: "The preferred bimatoprost concentration range is about 2-4% w/w, more preferably about 2.5-3.5% w/w. These preferred bimatoprost concentration ranges allow a surprisingly good balance to be achieved between the wanted pharmacologic effects of the composition and any unwanted side-effects. It had previously been thought that bimatoprost compositions for stimulating growth of hair should have a much lower bimatoprost concentration; this has now surprisingly been found not to be the case."

----------


## rdawg

> Yeah, here's a quote from their patent, filed in feb 14, published in Oct 14: "The preferred bimatoprost concentration range is about 2-4% w/w, more preferably about 2.5-3.5% w/w. These preferred bimatoprost concentration ranges allow a surprisingly good balance to be achieved between the wanted pharmacologic effects of the composition and any unwanted side-effects. It had previously been thought that bimatoprost compositions for stimulating growth of hair should have a much lower bimatoprost concentration; this has now surprisingly been found not to be the case."


 Even more positive, it seems the higher the dose the better response, and they've found the best % with the lowest amount of sides.

What would hold them back from pushing this forward, the only thing I can think of is that the results were good, but not amazing(lets say, 5-10% better than minoxidil) and they just aren't willing to put out a product unless it's a significant improvement. Hopefully that's not the case.

----------


## breakbot

> Like I've stated earlier, phase 2b success has the implication of a phase 3 and a launch. It would pretty much be letting the cat out of the bag. Being quiet, while continuing the study (*it says "this study is ongoing but not recruiting participants*" on clinicaltrials.gov) *ensures* that when it is time to announce success, you actually HAVE a product to market. It makes no sense to announce results now, the stock is doing fine on its own. Yes, normally good news is released at the time it occurs, but given what's happened with this company recently, it actually makes sense to hold back. 
> 
> As the saying goes: "no news is good news."


 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01904721 
This study has been completed.
What's your next move?

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

> Even more positive, it seems the higher the dose the better response, and they've found the best % with the lowest amount of sides.
> 
> What would hold them back from pushing this forward, the only thing I can think of is that the results were good, but not amazing(lets say, 5-10% better than minoxidil) and they just aren't willing to put out a product unless it's a significant improvement. Hopefully that's not the case.


 They have so much going on between the merger that posting the results of Bim is not on their high priority list. Let it play out man.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01904721 
> This study has been completed.
> What's your next move?


 Yea, that's about phase 2b, they did complete that study. Do you want a cookie?

My next move... is this thread about you? I'm not up against anyone, maybe you think you're my opponent or something haha. I've shown in the thread many times that this drug works very well. My enthusiasm comes from that. They could be in phase 3 right now for all we know. They don't have to post anything to clinicaltrials.gov yet because their patients were already enough patients enrolled from previous studies. We don't know what the status is! I hope they are continuing, we'll just have to wait and see.

----------


## Keki

> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01904721 
> This study has been completed.
> What's your next move?


 *facepalm*

I wonder why are always the same people in every thread...

----------


## sascha

> You know what we should send a mail to che ceo or someone like that explaining the enthusiasm and hope on bim, ...


 Did you do that? I thinks its worth a shot or maybe somebody could call in the next show and just ask.
This thread becomes so disturbing to read. It would be a shame if this stuff would not work, but even a bigger shame if we keep talking about it if it does not.

----------


## Keki

No i didn't, they will trash my mail if alone, for this reason i asked a community thing, but people focus on flaming eachother istead, basically now everyone who post some sort of positive behevior or some slightly good paper are marked as dreamer, idiot and blind hype follower, nothign costructive, this is no news the hairloss community if full of fustrated people, we can't do a shit, soon someone will quote my idea as "useless cuz the evil corp doesn't give a shit about aga and balding people", just wait

----------


## sascha

I agree Keki this is not the right attitude to tackle a problem. Well do you know somebody who could possibly call in the Bald Truth or  just somebody else who reads this(Artista)? I would do it, but I live in Italy and that is kind of inconvenient. I would love to hear 2014 calling in, since I think he would not be satisfied with the "yeah we just have to wait"-crap, and that is most likely the answer for somebody who is not persistant ...
I miss Joe from SI because of this very reason. Love him or hate him but he made sure that 10 - 15 minutes of the show are reserved for the future.

----------


## breakbot

> Yea, that's about phase 2b, they did complete that study. Do you want a cookie?
> 
> My next move... is this thread about you? I'm not up against anyone, maybe you think you're my opponent or something haha. I've shown in the thread many times that this drug works very well. My enthusiasm comes from that. They could be in phase 3 right now for all we know. They don't have to post anything to clinicaltrials.gov yet because their patients were already enough patients enrolled from previous studies. We don't know what the status is! I hope they are continuing, we'll just have to wait and see.


 No you are not my opponent. I just as you want bimatoprost to move on. But i don't think so, unfortunately.

----------


## Illusion

We could send emails out yeah. I doubt it will do anything but it requires almost zero effort so if we can get a lot of people to do this then why the hell not. But having someone "big" in the community reaching out would be even better I think. What about Spencer? Does he know anything about Bim? Sorry if this has been mentioned before in this thread or if he already talked about this on his show (I never watch his show  :Stick Out Tongue:  )

----------


## rdawg

> We could send emails out yeah. I doubt it will do anything but it requires almost zero effort so if we can get a lot of people to do this then why the hell not. But having someone "big" in the community reaching out would be even better I think. What about Spencer? Does he know anything about Bim? Sorry if this has been mentioned before in this thread or if he already talked about this on his show (I never watch his show  )


 yes he knows about BIM and mentioned that he heard the 2B trials were going well back in one of his shows around December I believe.

----------


## bornthisway

A dermatologist office that claims to work closely with Allergan said they were bringing a product based on Latisse to market for hair loss very soon, like this Summer. Which isn't possible based on where it is in the trials... if only.

----------


## Keki

> A dermatologist office that claims to work closely with Allergan said they were bringing a product based on Latisse to market for hair loss very soon, like this Summer. Which isn't possible based on where it is in the trials... if only.


 
ya well i don't think they can skip phase3 anyway so pretty sure is bullshit

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

> A dermatologist office that claims to work closely with Allergan said they were bringing a product based on Latisse to market for hair loss very soon, like this Summer. Which isn't possible based on where it is in the trials... if only.


 uh, wut

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

What's weird is that Actavis completed Phase III trials for their drug DUR001-303 in March 2015 and are now releasing the results at the end of April. 

But, Allergan completed Phase II trials for Bimatoprost in January and haven't released the results yet. 

I don't think they haven't released it yet because of poor efficacy. Actavis owned DUR001-303 but they didn't own Bimatoprost. It could be Actavis is more concerned with launching their products first. 

I don't really know what to think of bornthisway's post. 

Hey *Bornthisway* what dermatologist do you see?

----------


## bornthisway

> I don't really know what to think of bornthisway's post. 
> 
> Hey *Bornthisway* what dermatologist do you see?


 I said it's impossible. Clearly one or both parties are wrong :P I was shocked they knew about latisse being used for hair loss by Allergan so I thought it was mildly interesting to share but I even stated not going to happen..

----------


## rdawg

> A dermatologist office that claims to work closely with Allergan said they were bringing a product based on Latisse to market for hair loss very soon, like this Summer. Which isn't possible based on where it is in the trials... if only.


 it's possible but very unlikely, 2B finished in January, phase III is minimum 6 months, thus could be done in June(if they did it without announcing) 

wouldn't trust these friends of a friends source though.

still excited for this product, very intriguing

----------


## Keki

I'm not concerned by bim, i'm concerned about the price, if they sell latisse for 150$, at 3% even with mass production the price  will be incredible, this is the only real reason why they could stop a bim treatment, i can totally see how they could sell this for 200-250$ a month lol

----------


## doinmyheadin

I read somewhere that Latisse works by keeping the hair in the growing phase longer and that eyelashes only have 30% or so in the growing phase at one time this is why it makes such a dramatic difference with eyelashes. But hair on the top of the head has 70% or so in the growing phase at the one time so Latisse or Bim probably wont work that well for MPB. Dont quote me on those exact figures.

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

How can we figure out where Actavis is with Bim?

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

Visited Allegran's website and went to the "Contact" page and wrote the following: 

Hello, 

As a shareholder, can you please inform me where Actavis or Allegran stands in regards to Phase II trials of Bimatoprost for the treatment of androgenic alopecia? 

If you cannot update me with such information, can you provide me with details for when the next shareholder meeting will be? 

Thank you kindly for your attention to this matter.

----------


## rdawg

they would literally have a stranglehold on the market as well. No other product can go to Phase III right now, the closest would be CB or SM who are probably about 2 years behind in the timeline at least. Imagine as a company having essentially a monopoly on the market introducing what is essentially the sequel to rogaine(essentially another topical but much more effective).

----------


## champpy

I know this doesn't mean much, but I contacted Allergan back in Feb and tried to ask someone if they knew anything about the results. After a couple of line transfers I finally spoke to a guy (don't remember his name) and he acted like he had never heard of the scalp product at all.  I guess I cant expect anymore than that. But I tried hahaha.

On a side note, I have been using Latisse and Careprost once a day since about November.  I use roughly 10 drops a night. At first I thought it was helping on my temples, but ive seen no further growth at all since. Not only that the hair is still thinning. Sooooo, I know the .03% isn't enough to grow hair, but now im kinda doubting if even stronger concentrations will do anything for the scalp. Its a sad thought

----------


## Keki

> I know this doesn't mean much, but I contacted Allergan back in Feb and tried to ask someone if they knew anything about the results. After a couple of line transfers I finally spoke to a guy (don't remember his name) and he acted like he had never heard of the scalp product at all.  I guess I cant expect anymore than that. But I tried hahaha.
> 
> On a side note, I have been using Latisse and Careprost once a day since about November.  I use roughly 10 drops a night. At first I thought it was helping on my temples, but ive seen no further growth at all since. Not only that the hair is still thinning. Sooooo, I know the .03% isn't enough to grow hair, but now im kinda doubting if even stronger concentrations will do anything for the scalp. Its a sad thought


 it does, at least latano which is the same (or almost the same?), i have seen some pics and it totally worked at 0.1

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

Got a response back: 

"The next shareholder meeting will be held on June 5th. It is regarding the name change of Actavis to Allergan. And we cannot provide you an update on the Phase II trials just yet."

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

Another response from Investor Relations: 

"On February 18th we held an Investor Day, which included a very thorough pipeline review. The materials can still be found on our website. We will probably not have another pipeline update until next year, since we do this as an annual event." 

Nothing new about Bim is on the company's website.

----------


## Keki

Can't find this late february report anywhere, and they didn't update the financial report for the first quater yet, this piss me off, before there was a clear pipeline section in their site

----------


## Keki

Ok i found it, it was actavis pipeline, but it say few thing about allergan aswell, but it refer only to bim susteined release for eye and latisse, no bim for scalp, i hope it's not a bad news

----------


## Swooping

As said with their DARPin drug they couldn't wait to announce a phase 3. They were so hyped up they released a press release like 11 weeks after they finished phase 2 with all the results. They immediately confirmed phase 3. 

Completion date of bimatoprost was in september 2014. I count almost 7 months still no news. You guys don't find this strange? Seriously. What reason is there to think of that they would act in this manner. 

If you have a good product I would release it to market asap, you guys wouldn't?

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

I just sent another response. I will post back when I hear from them next.

----------


## hellouser

> Got a response back: 
> 
> "The next shareholder meeting will be held on June 5th. It is regarding the name change of Actavis to Allergan. And we cannot provide you an update on the Phase II trials just yet."


 In other words:

'Our treatment sucks so much that we don't even want to release test results.'

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

They will be releasing first quarter 2015 financial results on May 11th. This could give us a better idea of where they stand with Bim

----------


## joel203

Bim is dead.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

I have to agree...at this point, and with these circumstances, it's not looking good for bim. It works, we know that, just maybe not well enough to make it distinguishable from minox. However, it ain't over until the fat lady sings.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> In other words:
> 
> 'Our treatment sucks so much that we don't even want to release test results.'


 And hell, I have to agree with you that society nor companies care about men's health. If women lost their hair the same way men do, there would be an uproar and would be unacceptable to society.

----------


## dus

Well, this sucks.

----------


## Keki

> I have to agree...at this point, and with these circumstances, it's not looking good for bim. It works, we know that, just maybe not well enough to make it distinguishable from minox. However, it ain't over until the fat lady sings.


 
well they are completly wrong, many people there hate minox and bim even if work less effective WORKS, it's another weapon we could have i will be really pissed off if they stop bim and we will have only minox for the next 500 years with his shedding his retard cycle and his fake healthy hairs, **** minox

we should really send hundreads of mail, we need to do what we can and show interest even if it's less effective then minox, maybe they will wake up

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## Keki

BTW this is the pdf of february http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...RJRD01Njk5MDk=

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## BiqqieSmalls

Nobody contact them ... Please! 

I am working on it. If other people start emailing / calling them, it is going to dilute my case! Hang tight. Just spoke with investor relations. The idiot refused to tell me anything .. After telling her that is a disservice to a shareholder, she took down my name and number promising to dig deeper into this. If I don't receive a call back by Thursday, May 7th, I will follow up. 

Maybe the results did suck, *but we just don't know*.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> BTW this is the pdf of february http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...RJRD01Njk5MDk=


 At this point, we can only speculate as to why we haven't heard anything about this drug, or why we're not allowed the information yet. It's really puzzling, but the default response will always be "it failed." That's because we're on a hair loss forum, and it's been almost 20 years since a new treatment has been approved.

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

FearTheLoss stated in the following thread (https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...-trial!/page30) that Allergen wouldn't post results until 2016. Where did he come up with this information? 

I am in talks with investor relations. It is their fiduciary responsibility to inform me, or anyone else who is a shareholder, how the trial went. If they don't, they're violating the the stockholder's statutory right to inspect corporate books and records.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> FearTheLoss stated in the following thread (https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...-trial!/page30) that Allergen wouldn't post results until 2016. Where did he come up with this information? 
> 
> I am in talks with investor relations. It is their fiduciary responsibility to inform me, or anyone else who is a shareholder, how the trial went. If they don't, they're violating the the stockholder's statutory right to inspect corporate books and records.


 Someone posted in a related thread they emailed allergan, and that their response was that they wouldn't post results until 2016. They are obligated by the FDA to post trial results within a year of the trial completion date. 

They've had problems in the past with other companies making money off bim, maybe they don't want to have a similar situation with hair loss, since they can't yet market it? It's just a higher concentration of the drug. I don't know. It's either that or they want enough time to pass, and have other drugs be approved in the meantime, so it soften's the blow of a hyped up failure. Hope it's not the latter.

----------


## Keki

Yeah go biqqui you are the only who can succeed at this point, tell them you want to know just if they want to continue that direction or not, we don't care about the exact data

----------


## champpy

Hey Hellhouser, haven't heard from you on the RU threads. Was just hoping if you can tell me if your still on RU and hows it working if you are. Don't mean to derail this thread, just trying to catch the fella while hes here

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## BiqqieSmalls

Just got off the phone with investor relations. 

I informed them as a shareholder, I have a statutory right to their records, etc. They said that they have not released the results yet, even to shareholders. I am guessing they were talking about releasing results on Investor Day which took place on February 18th. When I asked *WHEN* they would release the results, the woman said in a few months. I asked why it is taking so long since another product's Phase II trial (Actavis/Allergan) was completed in March and results posted in April. She said it was because of the complexity of Bimatoprost. 

This is at least good news in the sense that they will be posting results.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Just got off the phone with investor relations. 
> 
> I informed them as a shareholder, I have a statutory right to their records, etc. They said that they have not released the results yet, even to shareholders. I am guessing they were talking about releasing results on Investor Day which took place on February 18th. When I asked *WHEN* they would release the results, the woman said in a few months. I asked why it is taking so long since another product's Phase II trial (Actavis/Allergan) was completed in March and results posted in April. She said it was because of the complexity of Bimatoprost. 
> 
> This is at least good news in the sense that they will be posting results.


 Interesting...the complexity of bimatoprost. I wonder what that even means.

It really could be good or bad. It's nearly impossible to tell. Guess we'll have to wait.

Thanks Biqqie for looking into this!

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Regarding investor relations person saying the reason no results have been disclosed is because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." ...

Let's say it failed - what complexity is there to let everyone know that it failed for hair loss? There's nothing much to lose. It won't affect their stock price too much, as they have other very lucrative products lined up (DARPin etc) for the future. They're also a very valuable company, one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole lot. 

Let's say it succeeded - Bimatoprost is now able to be legally produced by other companies. For other uses, yes. However, they have been trialling the drug at higher concentration, but it is nonetheless accessible by many parties. The reason to keep things quiet, even from investors in this case, is so that no one finds out this drug works for hair loss at ~3% concentration. If anyone has been following, there have been past legal issues with companies producing bimatoprost; lawsuits etc. Now that the patent has expired for .03%, many companies can make it. Allergan doesn't even have a licensed product at this concentration yet, and they may need to have one in order to protect themselves from those that would try to make it. Like I've been saying before, it would be foolish to let the word out before you have a product to market. There would be plenty others lining up to make it and sell it themselves. Chinese companies, random labs etc. 

I'd say the issue is more complex if it succeeded, than if it failed. The reason she gave was "complexity of bimatoprost." The issue is pretty complex if other parties have access to mass production of this drug, and Allergan is planning to release this same drug albeit at a higher concentration. If it was a drug that wasn't in the hands of anyone else, and it succeeded, I guarantee we would've heard something by now. On the other hand, if it failed, there would be no reason to hide the results. Drugs fail FDA trials all the time.

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## Keki

I too believe is a positive news, you could have pushed a little more maybe, with a "so you are still developing the product" or somethign like that and see the reaction

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

We'll find out more information on Monday

----------


## rdawg

> We'll find out more information on Monday


 what's happening on Monday?

this is a very intriguing situation here, The trials have been done for months but this company is very hush hush about this product, they have many other products on the pipeline so releasing failed results really wont hurt them much.

There must be something happening behind the scenes with this product.

----------


## bornthisway

Either it failed or it didn't. Just have to be patient. Like with Follicept, SM, and whatever else. Most things tend to end in failure generally though.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> what's happening on Monday?
> 
> this is a very intriguing situation here, The trials have been done for months but this company is very hush hush about this product, they have many other products on the pipeline so releasing failed results really wont hurt them much.
> 
> There must be something happening behind the scenes with this product.


 I think the circumstances are unusual. According to the clinical trial page for phase 2b, the study was actually completed in September, so they would have known by then if it was working. They have kept quiet about it for months and months. They haven't even disclosed results to shareholders, and from everything I've read, anytime someone on a hair loss forum asked about it, they acted as if they've never heard of the drug. I think it's because other parties have legal access to mass production of bimatoprost.

If it failed, I'm not so sure it would be detrimental to say so. This company is huge with tons of products already, and in the pipeline. They wouldn't be so timid to release failed results of a drug, and wouldn't wait nearly a year to say it failed. This isn't some biotech startup with all their hopes on one or a few drugs, this is BIG pharma. Allergan believed in this drug all along, and were not deterred by the phase 2a study.

----------


## burtandernie

What is the timeline on when this comes out if everything goes on track? The timelines on this stuff is ridiculous the amount of years for something to get through.

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## jamesst11

I have not been following this too closely, but want to get more informed.  I have two questions for you comeonits2014already: 
1) Based on your research do you still have hope in this and 
2) when are you going to change your name to "comeonits2015already"? haha  :Wink:

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

For all we know, they could be in Phase III trials right now.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> What is the timeline on when this comes out if everything goes on track? The timelines on this stuff is ridiculous the amount of years for something to get through.


 Sometime btwn Nov 2015 and Jan 2016, believe it or not.

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## burtandernie

> Sometime btwn Nov 2015 and Jan 2016, believe it or not.


 Wow that is soon. I hope it works amazingly well.

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## burtandernie

> Either it failed or it didn't. Just have to be patient. Like with Follicept, SM, and whatever else. Most things tend to end in failure generally though.


 I dont know I would think with the money at stake they would spot most failures pretty early on before going to larger ones. With how close this is to release its hard to see it spectacularly failing at such a late stage, but certainly possible

----------


## cookies

Enough trails have failed in phase II or III.

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## Hankylord

I was having a look at Duke's 2014 study on bimatoprost (https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...t=X431256#othr), and, unless I'm reading the results wrong, 17 weeks of using 0.03% bimatoprost resulted in a mean increase in total hair count of 27.4% in the target area, and a 12.1% increase in terminal hairs.

Surely this seems more effective than minoxidil, and especially at such a low dose...?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I have not been following this too closely, but want to get more informed.  I have two questions for you comeonits2014already: 
> 1) Based on your research do you still have hope in this and 
> 2) when are you going to change your name to "comeonits2015already"? haha


 1) There is a lot of reason to believe this drug will work well (based on scientific studies), and will be developed. The circumstances surrounding the trials and how tight-lipped they've been, for as long as they've been (approx. 8 months since final data collection in Sept. 2014), are fishy. They haven't even disclosed the results to their shareholders, which is both unusual, and tells me they are protecting their investment by doing so. Loose lips sink ships. I think it has a lot to with other parties having access to developing bimatoprost. They don't want anyone to know it works until they have a licensed product themselves. They have the potential of losing money if the word is out before they have their own product. 

On the other hand, revealing that the trial failed isn't that big of a deal for a company like this, as they have deep pockets as anyone in big pharma. They have a lot of lucrative and likely successful products in their pipeline, anyway. They wouldn't keep things this quiet for this long unless it's a success, given that bimatoprost is accessible to many different parties. That's my take. 

2) I would consider changing it if it's possible. I'll change it every year until a new treatment satisfies me, then I will no longer be on this forum lol

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## champpy

Ive mentioned this before but ive been using bim for 6-7 months w no regrowth at all. Im also already using dut and fin. Any ideas why this wouldnt be working for me? Im almost 40 yrs old. Could that be the reason?

----------


## Joker

Just gonna add some more facts to the discussion here. 

This morning, Actavis had their Q1 2015 earnings call. The company is doing extraordinarily well.

The bad news is that they mentioned the clinical progress of and announced new clinical trials for several key Allergan products (DARPin, bimatoprost SR, etc.) without mentioning anything about bimatoprost for hair growth. No analysts even inquired about bimatoprost for hair growth (suggesting that this may not be a major priority outside of our community). 

The company also mentioned, however, that they are still in the process of working through their pipeline and making decisions as to which programs will move forward and which programs will not. They are planning on moving forward with about 70 products, 50 of which are already late-stage. (source: http://actavis.com/news/news/thomson...nce-in-first-q)

The bottom line is that we still have no idea as to the efficacy of bimatoprost for hair growth. If things were great, Actavis is likely to have swiftly moved forward with Phase 3 as it has done with several other of its properties. Speculation by 2014 that Actavis is staying quiet BECAUSE bimatoprost is a known success is almost assuredly wrong. Companies do not offer press releases for failed products. They stay quiet until they announce their pipeline on a going forward basis (something Actavis said it plans to do during its next R&D day), and the products that don't make the cut are silently dropped. Thus, silence does not = success. 

Now, I'm not saying bimatoprost has failed. I really have no idea. It may or may not be one of the many clinical programs Actavis hopes to push forward in the relatively near term. But we know that it is not currently in Phase 3, and we also know that it could be a long time before we are made aware of success/failure. All I want to say is that the business analysis (not necessarily the scientific analysis, which I think is generally sound) taking place on this forum is too highly speculative, in my opinion. At this point, all we can really do is wait and hope that Actavis realizes the promise of bimatoprost as a clinical and commercial opportunity.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> The bottom line is that we still have no idea as to the efficacy of bimatoprost for hair growth. If things were great, Actavis is likely to have swiftly moved forward with Phase 3 as it has done with several other of its properties. Speculation by 2014 that Actavis is staying quiet BECAUSE bimatoprost is a known success is almost assuredly wrong. Companies do not offer press releases for failed products. They stay quiet until they announce their pipeline on a going forward basis (something Actavis said it plans to do during its next R&D day), and the products that don't make the cut are silently dropped. Thus, silence does not = success. 
> 
> Now, I'm not saying bimatoprost has failed. I really have no idea. It may or may not be one of the many clinical programs Actavis hopes to push forward in the relatively near term. But we know that it is not currently in Phase 3, and we also know that it could be a long time before we are made aware of success/failure. All I want to say is that the business analysis (not necessarily the scientific analysis, which I think is generally sound) taking place on this forum is too highly speculative, in my opinion. At this point, all we can really do is wait and hope that Actavis realizes the promise of bimatoprost as a clinical and commercial opportunity.


 
Well, that's why I finished with "that's my take." If it failed, I understand why there wouldn't be a press-release, but why not make the results public?

This is getting ridiculous, does nothing but fin and dut work for hair loss?

----------


## StayThick

> Well, that's why I finished with "that's my take." If it failed, I understand why there wouldn't be a press-release, but why not make the results public?
> 
> This is getting ridiculous, does nothing but fin and dut work for hair loss?


 Anything else work? Lol. 

NO.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Anything else work? Lol. 
> 
> NO.


 That was a rhetorical question

----------


## StayThick

> That was a rhetorical question


 And I provided you an answer to that rhetorical question. "NO." Move on.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> And I provided you an answer to that rhetorical question. "NO." Move on.


 Then you don't understand the meaning of a rhetorical question. Moving on.

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## joel203

> And I provided you an answer to that rhetorical question. "NO." Move on.


 *facepalm*

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

I listened to the conference call this morning and was actually registered to ask a question, but they only took about 10 questions from different investors. Nothing was asked about Bim for MPB because I don't think people know about it. It was in Allergan's pipeline, not Actavis's. Could this be why Actavis is not talking about it? 

I have sent an *email* to the VP of Investor Relations earlier today. Haven't yet received a response. I'll *call* her tomorrow to discuss this.

----------


## StayThick

> Then you don't understand the meaning of a rhetorical question. Moving on.


 Your anger is misguided. Came across to me as a legit question versus a rhetorical one. In which case, I gave you an answer. My sincere apologies if your question was made with a hint of sarcasm. I didn't see a point in your question...

Continue wasting time on a eye lash drug that won't make it to market and if it does is miles away from reaching actual product to your bald head. You don't even know the results of this for hairloss let alone when/if it will come to fruition.

Get mad at the lack of hairloss treatments that causes you to make such retarded rhetorical questions. There isn't a solution outside of minox/fin. Deal with it. I am.

----------


## Keki

Well your conclusions are wrong, prostaglanding analog works, to some people even little dose like 0.01 let hairs grows like crazy with documented pics made from docs and not aneddoctal bullshit like 95% of posts here, they can be a solution to people who cannot use minox or fin or where those treatment didn't give good results, we can discuss if can be a good product for the market even if the % of people responding to treatment are inferior to minox, or we can discuss if the cost for the 3% solution is too high for consumers but we cannot say "this doesn't work" becaose that's a lie

----------


## Justinian

We know Bim works, we just don't know if it works well enough to be profitable over minox. The most likely scenario is they still don't know if they will continue on with bim for alopecia. Preliminary trials would seem to indicate that extremely low doses work to some extent, so it's just a question of how much does dose matter.

Also, I've been an investor in an unrelated biotech for a year or so now, and I've learned the hard way that companies definitely aren't obligated to release trial result information to investors. It's very frustrating sometimes, but that's the way it is.

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

> I've been an investor in an unrelated biotech for a year or so now, and I've learned the hard way that companies definitely aren't obligated to release trial result information to investors. It's very frustrating sometimes, but that's the way it is.


 I am pretty sure these companies have a fiduciary duty to provide you with information that will aid in your financial decisions.

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## Keki

biqquie no news from yesterday?

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## BiqqieSmalls

> biqquie no news from yesterday?


 No news man

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

And it won't look like we'll get an answer soon.. But there is good news. 

Research and Development head David Nicholson noted on the conference call earlier this week that Actavis had almost finished the rationalization of the companies' pipe lines and had decided to move forward with 70 projects. Some programs are still under review. I knew they wouldn't release results yet; this merger is so intricate. Also, keep in mind Bim was Allergan's product, not Actavis's...

When the Investor Relations told me 'a couple months', it sounds believable because Actavis will release Q2 earnings sometime in July.

----------


## Keki

Thx for the info, looked the q1 results aswell, they included Bimataprost SR  Phase III recruiting US, Phase III initiation EU, 2015, no scalp phase 3 so i think it's a bad news... well at least for us, no info about the 25+ phase 3 projects...

If it's the same in q2 i don't think they will release any news, they will copy paste a similar presentation in q2 with no trial results, they don't even mentioned latisse in their earning... wtf, i miss the old allergan pipeline info, they now list only potential "milestone" and 0 info on secondary trials for their product

----------


## rdawg

So clearly the science backs up the product and it definitely has a positive result on hair!

this seems like the only product out there with a legit ability to grow or reinforce your hair! and it's so close to market release(nothing is done phase IIb!) 

could it be side effect problems? patent issues? timing?

it will be really unfortunate if they come out and say the results were good but not good enough to release, would be really unhappy about that as the science really supports this drug!

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> So clearly the science backs up the product and it definitely has a positive result on hair!
> 
> this seems like the only product out there with a legit ability to grow or reinforce your hair! and it's so close to market release(nothing is done phase IIb!) 
> 
> could it be side effect problems? patent issues? timing?
> 
> it will be really unfortunate if they come out and say the results were good but not good enough to release, would be really unhappy about that as the science really supports this drug!


 I caught some of Spencer's latest show, and Joe from SI called in. Bimatoprost was briefly mentioned, but Spencer made a very good point. He said that not releasing results may not have anything to do with good or bad, but only to do with business. There also may be a legal issue involved. My  belief is, given that many other companies can legally manufacture bimatoprost, there may be a legal and business issue for them to release results prematurely, if it succeeded. There would also be a press-release, and likely news stories to follow. News would travel _fast_. 

The investor relations person mentioned to BiqqieSmalls that the reason no results have been posted, is because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." That sounds like a legal, or business issue. I have a really hard time applying that same explanation to a failure. I'd say that explanation is quite simple - here are the results, they weren't sufficient enough for hair growth. No big deal, we're moving on with other successful products. No need to wait _this_ long, no need for a press release, just results. 

This is speculative, but I've always believed that Kythera's decision to move forward and start trials did have something to do with this drug succeeding. A phase 2b success would indicate the prostaglandin hypothesis having clinical proof of efficacy. Kythera's Chief Medical Officer worked at Allergan for 10 years, and could assuredly get information on that trial if they were planning on moving forward with something similar themselves. I'm sure he still has many ties to that company. After all, this is one of the first drugs being tested based on a "hypothesis." They must've needed many, many reasons to give them the will to move forward. 

This drug does indeed work, but is it enough for them to produce? If it works, it would be amazing. It would be miracle grow for your hair, and unlike minox, it would work *anywhere* on the scalp. Unlike fin, it would actually regrow, and wouldn't have sexual side-effects. 

rdawg, btw I included somewhere in the thread, the latest patent for bim that says the 3% range is perfect because it provides a surprisingly good balance between the wanted effects, without any unwanted side effects.

----------


## Keki

This doesn't explain why refuse to even mention bim scalp trial in every recent pdf, and we can forget a fast phase3 trial and the market release soon if they refuse to even release the results, if everything goes well for us they will release the trial results maybe at the end of the year, start another year trial, then wait for fda etc etc = at least early 2018, according to their february pdf aswell

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> This doesn't explain why refuse to even mention bim scalp trial in every recent pdf, and we can forget a fast phase3 trial and the market release soon if they refuse to even release the results, if everything goes well for us they will release the trial results maybe at the end of the year, start another year trial, then wait for fda etc etc = at least early 2018, according to their february pdf aswell


 It does explain it to a certain degree - there could be a legal and/or business issue holding them back from saying anything. Investor relations even said it was a complex issue why they haven't yet released results, and it has to do with the complexities surrounding the drug itself. How complex is it if the drug failed for hair loss? It works for other indications. That's not a big deal to say so, not all is lost because it works for other things like glaucoma and eyelashes. 

Don't forget that phase 2b success = launch. Phase 3 is just a formality in this case.

----------


## kantian

What do you mean its just a formality? Isn't phase 3 necessary for fda approval? Can they start selling before phase 3?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> What do you mean its just a formality? Isn't phase 3 necessary for fda approval? Can they start selling before phase 3?


 What I'm saying is that for this drug, if it made it through phase 2b (efficacy), it would almost certainly make it to market. They will do a phase 3 because they have to.

----------


## jiggo

Propably they are waiting for the end of the SM trial and depending on that they will decide to continue or not. SM could be a big thing I hope.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Going to reiterate my reasoning to be positive about this drug, and I welcome someone to challenge my argument, using facts and logic.

Investor relations person says they haven't released phase 2b results, even to shareholders, because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." They've known the results of the trials for about 7 months, but haven't said a word to anyone, not even their beloved shareholders. 

This is a strange case, but I side with optimism because we know the drug works. Also, several other companies can produce generic bimatoprost, so I'm beginning to believe it's a legal issue. In the past, what set Allergan's products containing bimatoprost apart were licensed trademarks (Lumigan, Latisse). I'm not certain things succeeded, but it may take being closer to having an actual product with an actual licensed trademark to release results, if it did in fact succeed. 

Someone provide me a better argument why they haven't released results, even to shareholders, in 6+ months and I'll shut up. Convince me I'm wrong, I'm very open to it. Again, what's the harm in releasing the results of this one if it didn't work, when 70 other of their applications have worked, 50 of which are late stage?

----------


## rdawg

> Going to reiterate my reasoning to be positive about this drug, and I welcome someone to challenge my argument, using facts and logic.
> 
> Investor relations person says they haven't released phase 2b results, even to shareholders, because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." They've known the results of the trials for about 7 months, but haven't said a word to anyone, not even their beloved shareholders. 
> 
> This is a strange case, but I side with optimism because we know the drug works. Also, several other companies can produce generic bimatoprost, so I'm beginning to believe it's a legal issue. In the past, what set Allergan's products containing bimatoprost apart were licensed trademarks (Lumigan, Latisse). I'm not certain things succeeded, but it may take being closer to having an actual product with an actual licensed trademark to release results, if it did in fact succeed. 
> 
> Someone provide me a better argument why they haven't released results, even to shareholders, in 6+ months and I'll shut up. Convince me I'm wrong, I'm very open to it. Again, what's the harm in releasing the results of this one if it didn't work, when 70 other of their applications have worked, 50 of which are late stage?


 So how would the company protect the product then if it does work. That would be a very good reason to withhold results and stop competitors from selling the product as well.

do they have to file a patent? get it protected? What do they do so that they are the only ones to sell it?

----------


## Joker

> Going to reiterate my reasoning to be positive about this drug, and I welcome someone to challenge my argument, using facts and logic.
> 
> Investor relations person says they haven't released phase 2b results, even to shareholders, because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." They've known the results of the trials for about 7 months, but haven't said a word to anyone, not even their beloved shareholders. 
> 
> This is a strange case, but I side with optimism because we know the drug works. Also, several other companies can produce generic bimatoprost, so I'm beginning to believe it's a legal issue. In the past, what set Allergan's products containing bimatoprost apart were licensed trademarks (Lumigan, Latisse). I'm not certain things succeeded, but it may take being closer to having an actual product with an actual licensed trademark to release results, if it did in fact succeed. 
> 
> Someone provide me a better argument why they haven't released results, even to shareholders, in 6+ months and I'll shut up. Convince me I'm wrong, I'm very open to it. Again, what's the harm in releasing the results of this one if it didn't work, when 70 other of their applications have worked, 50 of which are late stage?


 So, here is a possible challenge to your argument: 

1) Information about bimatoprost being "complex" is almost completely useless in context. The representative was clearly giving a vague, standard line to get an anxious shareholder off the phone. She wasn't giving secret hints about the progress of bimatoprost. There is nothing to see here. 

2) If the product worked as planned, competition and patent concerns would only lead Actavis to accelerate the development of bimatoprost - not decelerate it. 

3) Companies in the aesthetic space almost never release the results of failed products outside of traditional channels (clinicaltrials.gov, etc.). Doing so in this instance would be almost completely without precedent. 

4) Shareholders are almost never made privy to detailed information related to the development of proprietary technologies. Being a shareholder is pretty easy. If shareholders were immediately given access to every piece of strategic information available, competitors would just buy shares in their competition to learn everything there is to know about the business strategies of their rivals. People speculating on this board have a very flawed understanding of fiduciary duties. 

5) Taking all of the above together, we know absolutely nothing about the development of bimatoprost. The only thing we know is that almost no new hair loss products ever work - even the ones with good track records in preclinical trials (see: ICX, Aderans, Follica, Histogen, etc.). There is no reason to assume bimatoprost will be any different.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> So, here is a possible challenge to your argument: 
> 
> 1) Information about bimatoprost being "complex" is almost completely useless in context. The representative was clearly giving a vague, standard line to get an anxious shareholder off the phone. She wasn't giving secret hints about the progress of bimatoprost. There is nothing to see here. 
> 
> 2) If the product worked as planned, competition and patent concerns would only lead Actavis to accelerate the development of bimatoprost - not decelerate it. 
> 
> 3) Companies in the aesthetic space almost never release the results of failed products outside of traditional channels (clinicaltrials.gov, etc.). Doing so in this instance would be almost completely without precedent. 
> 
> 4) Shareholders are almost never made privy to detailed information related to the development of proprietary technologies. Being a shareholder is pretty easy. If shareholders were immediately given access to every piece of strategic information available, competitors would just buy shares in their competition to learn everything there is to know about the business strategies of their rivals. People speculating on this board have a very flawed understanding of fiduciary duties. 
> ...


 I knew you'd be coming out of the woodwork, Joker! 

1) That's completely open to interpretation. I know she wasn't giving secret hints; I never suggested she was. What I took from her answers, was an employee of a company being as helpful and gracious to a shareholder as possible. It's doubtful that an employee would lie to a shareholder to get him off the phone. So, I took her at her word - the issue of bimatoprost is complex. You've also completely disregarded the fact that many other parties have access to mass production of this particular drug, and there have been some recent legal battles between Allergan and these companies. The issue would be complex if they were on the verge of producing a drug that's already in the hands of others. 

2) There's no evidence that the program has been decelerated. 

3) Nobody expects them to release failing results through press release, I know that. We're expecting results through traditional channels. The final data collection for primary outcome measure was completed nearly 10 months ago. They still can't tell shareholders? 

4) Bimatoprost is not a proprietary technology. Many companies can legally produce this drug. Being a shareholder isn't necessarily easy, since you have to have the money to invest in the first place (and at over $200 a share!). Shareholders haven't been given immediate access to information about this trial, Allergan knew the outcome nearly 10 months ago. 

5) We do know some things about the development about bimatoprost - the science behind it, the fact that in a new patent they stated the optimal concentration range for safety and efficacy (and included a penetration enhancer in a new formula), and that it was previously thought that the concentration should be much lower.

As for ICX and Aderans: yea those failed, but they weren't great to begin with. Bimatoprost actually works reasonably well at 100X less then what they were testing in 2b. Histogen has had delays, but isn't necessarily dead. Follica is actually still alive - if you look on grantome.com, Cotsarelis has a grant that lasts through 2018 to research follicular neogenesis through his wound healing technique. It's just going to take more time. Also, his work and funding with Kythera proves that if he's able to further that technology, they could be the company to bring it to fruition. 

By the way, I'm not assuming anything about the function or efficacy of bimatoprost. It works, I use it, I've seen results. The question is whether or not it's a product that's worth it for them to produce. Just because others have failed doesn't mean the next to come will fail as well, that's very flawed thinking.

----------


## lifelonglearning

Personally I think there waiting for phase 2 trial results from CB and SM which I think are announced fall 2015 , it would be pointless to create a product and commercialize it if those 2 products are going to out perform it.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Personally I think there waiting for phase 2 trial results from CB and SM which I think are announced fall 2015 , it would be pointless to create a product and commercialize it if those 2 products are going to out perform it.


 The more, the merrier  :Smile: 

Also depends on what kind of regrowth they can give. SM has potential to be great in this regard.

----------


## burtandernie

> The more, the merrier 
> 
> Also depends on what kind of regrowth they can give. SM has potential to be great in this regard.


 From our perspective sure. From their perspective probably not so much because they are directly competing against each other for same market most likely. It could be a lot of reasons, but competition could also be one. Who knows really.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> From our perspective sure. From their perspective probably not so much because they are directly competing against each other for same market most likely. It could be a lot of reasons, but competition could also be one. Who knows really.


 I agree with your statement, but at the moment the potential market for universal, side effect free hair loss treatment is wide open and vast. Who knows if competition is even a deciding factor. The actual market is HUGE, but everyone knows that not much works at all. If two different companies were aiming to release a treatment, I think it would only be an issue if one is far superior to the other.

Maybe if SM proves to be game-changing, extremely effective, and has a more quickly seen effect, we can forget about bim. Who knows.

----------


## macbeth81

> Someone provide me a better argument why they haven't released results, even to shareholders, in 6+ months and I'll shut up.


 Because they don't always release results within months of trial completion. Just a quick sample of previous Allergan trials demonstrates this fact (below). The average from the sample provided is over *15 months*. Now Allergan has completed many trials and this was just a sample, but enough to demonstrate they release results at their own leisure. I don't understand all the theories behind something that is not unusual.



```

Primary		Received	Months
Completion	Results		Apart	Identifier
--------------------------------------------------------
5/2012		5/21/2013	12  	NCT01391286
1/2011		6/24/2013	29  	NCT01189279
2/2014		1/27/2015	11	NCT01698554
5/2014		4/21/2015	11	NCT01830140
10/2011		8/13/2013	22	NCT01291108
4/2013		2/18/2014	10	NCT01646151
12/2013		1/16/2015	13	NCT01863953
11/2010		8/21/2012	21	NCT00907426
9/2010		12/13/2011	15	NCT01068964
7/2010		8/18/2011	13	NCT01064882
```

----------


## FearTheLoss

I thought they were required to release results in a year?

----------


## macbeth81

"Section 801 of the Food and Drug Administration Amendments Act (FDAAA 801) (PDF) requires Responsible Parties to register and submit summary results of clinical trials with ClinicalTrials.gov. The law applies to certain clinical trials of drugs (including biological products) and medical devices."

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/about-site/results

From my sample above, with exception to three studies, the remaining seven were received at about a year. ClinicalTrials.gov is a government ran site, so I don't know how well this is enforced. What is required and what actually happens are sometimes two different things. For example, look how many people don't file their income tax return. Government doesn't track requirements very well and is generally inefficient.

----------


## Keki

If it worked why waste a year? It needs to pe public the eventual phase 3 anyway, so i don't understand, the complexity of bim and their patent issue are easily fixed by one of the top 5-6 pharma company

----------


## Keki

ok guys i found some info http://ec.europa.eu/competition/merg...4195749_EN.pdf

this document explain the "complexity", very interesting let me know what do you thing about this

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> ok guys i found some info http://ec.europa.eu/competition/merg...4195749_EN.pdf
> 
> this document explain the "complexity", very interesting let me know what do you thing about this


 Yea it definitely points to an issue with other companies being able to produce bimatoprost. No way to tell if the trial went well, but it does tell us that the issue with this drug is legally complex.

Just speculating, but if their explanation is that they haven't released results because of these "complexities," then it probably did well. Makes no sense to guard a failure, if overall, there is an issue where other companies can produce the drug themselves. If it didn't work for hair loss, I think we'd know by now. No money to be lost.

----------


## FearTheLoss

Has anyone got a definitive answer on when these results will, or have to be released? or are we still shooting in the dark?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Has anyone got a definitive answer on when these results will, or have to be released? or are we still shooting in the dark?


 Biqqie Smalls is a shareholder, and he contacted investor relations. The person he spoke with said "in a few months," this was last month. So hopefully sometime in August or Sept.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Biqqie Smalls is a shareholder, and he contacted investor relations. The person he spoke with said "in a few months," this was last month. So hopefully sometime in August or Sept.


 
I'm with you in believing the results are positive. There is no reason for a company of their size to hold back negative results. I would say 1. the results are great and they are keeping it silent because of patent issues and other companies being able to produce bim. 2. the results are good and they are waiting to see how other trials pan out before spending money on a phase III...either way, it will be interesting to see

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Allergan is buying Kythera for $2.1 billion. I find this very interesting, given that Kythera's Chief Medical Officer worked at Allergan for over a decade. Also, they announced trials for Setipiprant soon after the phase IIb studies for bimatoprost were complete for Allergan. I'm sure they knew the results, given the company ties. This is very interesting given the mutual reliance on prostaglandin science. 

It looks like Allergan may be trying to corner the hair loss market. Look at this quote in April 2014 from Bosley Medical Director, Ken Washenik:

" The true Holy Grail may come from combining a drug like Latisse with a certain type of medication commonly used to treat allergies and asthma. The medication blocks a hormone-like substance that prevents hair from growing. A treatment like this might help with hair growth. Using these drugs in combination is like taking your foot off-break and stepping on gas at the same time."

Looks like Allergan is trying to corner the hair loss market. Sure, nobody wants a double chin either, but if Setipiprant is successful, it would shatter any earnings made by that injectable fat-burning drug. I really hope this means bim was successful, it may mean just that.

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

They're definitely trying to capture the whole MPB market share and they will succeed. I am super stoked.

----------


## burtandernie

I think everyone is curious what using those 2 drugs in combination would do. What kind of results are we talking? Could be minor or huge really impossible to guess. It would be kind of funny to see MPB nearly cured with a combo like this that no one would ever predicted or expected. For all the talk everyone does about millions of things about diet, air pollution, and so on causing MPB it would be odd for something like this to grow back a lot of hair. I guess lots of people turning out to be wrong is not a new thing either.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> I think everyone is curious what using those 2 drugs in combination would do. What kind of results are we talking? Could be minor or huge really impossible to guess. It would be kind of funny to see MPB nearly cured with a combo like this that no one would ever predicted or expected. For all the talk everyone does about millions of things about diet, air pollution, and so on causing MPB it would be odd for something like this to grow back a lot of hair. I guess lots of people turning out to be wrong is not a new thing either.


 That's not true at all, numerous hair loss researchers have stated a combo like this should give great results. PGE2 up and PGD2 down = hair

----------


## Justinian

> " The true Holy Grail may come from combining a drug like Latisse with a certain type of medication commonly used to treat allergies and asthma. The medication blocks a hormone-like substance that prevents hair from growing. A treatment like this might help with hair growth. Using these drugs in combination is like taking your foot off-break and stepping on gas at the same time."


 Very good find. It's very interesting how he mentioned this way back in early 2014.

http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-a...ments-pipeline

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

So I guess the Investor Relations woman was right. Why else would Allergan buy $KYTH if they didn't want to use Seti in conjunction with Bim? To whomever said Bim's Phase II had negative results... what now?!

----------


## rdawg

> Allergan is buying Kythera for $2.1 billion. I find this very interesting, given that Kythera's Chief Medical Officer worked at Allergan for over a decade. Also, they announced trials for Setipiprant soon after the phase IIb studies for bimatoprost were complete for Allergan. I'm sure they knew the results, given the company ties. This is very interesting given the mutual reliance on prostaglandin science. 
> 
> It looks like Allergan may be trying to corner the hair loss market. Look at this quote in April 2014 from Bosley Medical Director, Ken Washenik:
> 
> " The true Holy Grail may come from combining a drug like Latisse with a certain type of medication commonly used to treat allergies and asthma. The medication blocks a hormone-like substance that prevents hair from growing. A treatment like this might help with hair growth. Using these drugs in combination is like taking your foot off-break and stepping on gas at the same time."
> 
> Looks like Allergan is trying to corner the hair loss market. Sure, nobody wants a double chin either, but if Setipiprant is successful, it would shatter any earnings made by that injectable fat-burning drug. I really hope this means bim was successful, it may mean just that.


 This could come down to the patent thing as well, multiple companies can make the bimatoprost solution can't they?

but they can't make a combination of these two.

something big may be brewing behind the scenes here, and neither of these products are too far in the distance.

----------


## throwaway184

close enough that I can get by w/o trying Fin?

----------


## 79BirdofPrey

New to this topic - what is the working principle behind Bimatoprost? Is it another DHT blocker?

----------


## Ziggyz123

> close enough that I can get by w/o trying Fin?


 It is still years away.

----------


## GSD

> New to this topic - what is the working principle behind Bimatoprost? Is it another DHT blocker?


 

NO, its a better minoxidil

----------


## lacazette

Do the "21 century cure" bill could speed up allergan clinical trials? Speed the timeline for commercial use?

----------


## Hemo

> So I guess the Investor Relations woman was right. Why else would Allergan buy $KYTH if they didn't want to use Seti in conjunction with Bim? To whomever said Bim's Phase II had negative results... what now?!


 Or they really wanted the double chin treatment...
Not saying Allergan isn't interested in Seti, but it's not Kythera's only product.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Do the "21 century cure" bill could speed up allergan clinical trials? Speed the timeline for commercial use?


 Hopefully, and likely. There is a provision in the bill that speeds up development for repurposed drugs. AND guess what? The majority of Congress (of both dems and repubs) just cosponsored the bill, meaning it will surely make it through Congress.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/pres...igns-cures2015

----------


## lacazette

> Hopefully, and likely. There is a provision in the bill that speeds up development for repurposed drugs. AND guess what? The majority of Congress (of both dems and repubs) just cosponsored the bill, meaning it will surely make it through Congress.
> 
> http://energycommerce.house.gov/pres...igns-cures2015


 Omg that's great! New generation treatments are really not far away from us. Everything goes in the good way ( 21st century cure, competition between companies,etc..). Even the more pessimists guys begin to change their mind I'm sure  :Smile:  . Nothing compared like a few years ago with all these 'breaktrough mice studies' haha

----------


## Hemo

> Omg that's great! New generation treatments are really not far away from us. Everything goes in the good way ( 21st century cure, competition between companies,etc..). Even the more pessimists guys begin to change their mind I'm sure  . Nothing compared like a few years ago with all these 'breaktrough mice studies' haha


 What makes you say they're not far away?  Something has to actually work before the legislation makes any difference. There's very little proof that any of the treatments people are excited for actually do anything.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> What makes you say they're not far away?  Something has to actually work before the legislation makes any difference. There's very little proof that any of the treatments people are excited for actually do anything.


 Ugh, please. The dissenting voices on here who are so negative, are typically the ones that are ill-informed of the new technologies in the pipeline.

----------


## Trouse5858

> Ugh, please. The dissenting voices on here who are so negative, are typically the ones that are ill-informed of the new technologies in the pipeline.


 I feel like I'm very unbiased and his point is certainly valid. The new legislation is great but it's not going to make the treatments any more or less effective. And treatments in the 'pipeline' are the very definition of experimental and there's really no foreshadowing their efficacy on humans whether your're an optimist or a jaded cynic. I'm quite thankful that we have various teams working on the problem but at some point, results take precedence over talk. It's like when rival fans of horribly run football teams think they're going to win the Super Bowl before the start of every season. Half way through the year and they're already looking forward to next season. That's like the hair loss industry. "Just another year or two, baby. We got this."

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I feel like I'm very unbiased and his point is certainly valid. The new legislation is great but it's not going to make the treatments any more or less effective. And treatments in the 'pipeline' are the very definition of experimental and there's really no foreshadowing their efficacy on humans whether your're an optimist or a jaded cynic. I'm quite thankful that we have various teams working on the problem but at some point, results take precedence over talk. It's like when rival fans of horribly run football teams think they're going to win the Super Bowl before the start of every season. Half way through the year and they're already looking forward to next season. That's like the hair loss industry. "Just another year or two, baby. We got this."


 I agree with his point to a small degree. But, it's not like a tremendous amount of research and discoveries haven't happened in the past 10 years (or more) that wouldn't lend themselves to new effective treatments. That quote, "just another year or two" btw was never really realistic up until now. 

Between the number of drugs based on a lot of research and work, that are in phase 2 (or later), as well as the distinct possibility of a new bill being signed into law that will speed up and modernize clinical trials. The 21st Century Cures act, just got the majority of the House of Representatives of both dems and repubs, to cosponsor the bill before it goes to a vote. There is a strong belief it will be signed into law before the year is out. That means it could effect the speed in which we see bim, SM, and setipiprant, which will all be at phase 2 or higher.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Allergan's gonna have a second quarter earnings call on August 6th, there will also be a webcast. I wonder if they'll discuss the bimatoprost phase 2b results. Investor relations told biqqie smalls in May, they'd release the results in a "few months."

Joker pointed out that companies typically don't have press releases for failed drugs. Given the long, long silence regarding the trials, as well as the mutual reliance on prostaglandin science that seti and bim have, plus the fact that Allergan bough Kythera recently, and plans to develop seti....Also, what investor relations told a shareholder (biqqie smalls), I wonder if this could be it. Obviously, the entire press conference won't be about Bim alone, but I wonder if they'll touch on it. 

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300106291.html

----------


## burtandernie

> Do the "21 century cure" bill could speed up allergan clinical trials? Speed the timeline for commercial use?


 The senate will probably still be drafting and debating it by the time these drugs release in a few years. Nothing speeds up when congress touches it. Not to mention the years to actually implement any of the changes. Im not very optimistic about this bill speeding anything up anytime soon. I dont know anything in government that works quickly and if I got paid that kind of money to do that I wouldnt either.
I do think odds are some of the new treatments will work and get released this time. With the lack of info since money is involved its just whether your half glass full or half empty kind of person. There are quite a few things though and a good deal of sound science behind them so its hard not to be optimistic.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> *The senate will probably still be drafting and debating it by the time these drugs release in a few years. Nothing speeds up when congress touches it. Not to mention the years to actually implement any of the changes. Im not very optimistic about this bill speeding anything up anytime soon. I dont know anything in government that works quickly and if I got paid that kind of money to do that I wouldnt either.*
> I do think odds are some of the new treatments will work and get released this time. With the lack of info since money is involved its just whether your half glass full or half empty kind of person. There are quite a few things though and a good deal of sound science behind them so its hard not to be optimistic.


 Please do more research with regard to the bill. They already have the majority of the house as cosponsors. They plan on getting more than 350 house votes (overwhelming majority) to send a strong message to the senate. They've said for months that they firmly believe this will be signed by the president before the year is out, and haven't changed their tune. It becomes law within 10 days once it's signed.

You are completely speculating.

----------


## Hankylord

As much as I hope allergan's buyout of Kythera suggests further interest in the PDG2/PGE2 theory, their last investor call seemed to demonstrate that Kybella is very much the reason for the buyout, and setipiprant is just an incidental add-on.

Kybella sits very well with Allergan's botox; could it just be a coincidence that seti and bim are now under the same roof?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> As much as I hope allergan's buyout of Kythera suggests further interest in the PDG2/PGE2 theory, their last investor call seemed to demonstrate that Kybella is very much the reason for the buyout, and setipiprant is just an incidental add-on.
> 
> Kybella sits very well with Allergan's botox; could it just be a coincidence that seti and bim are now under the same roof?


 Well, as it happens, the job of the CEO is to explain to shareholders and investors why they made the move on the drug that has already been proven in clinical trials. So, of course they cannot say "hey, look at the great job we did on getting a drug that hasn't yet proven efficacy." It would fall quite flat, so naturally, that's not the presentation they went with. 

I'll also put this in perspective - you can get rid of a double chin by losing some weight. Most people aren't going to tell themselves, "I have a giant double chin, that's my only problem." No, the problem is you're overweight, and if you want to look better all around, you can lose some weight.  You can't get your hair back if you start losing it without the help of meds. 

Kybella being an injectable fits in well with the rest of what they have. No coincidence. If you want to properly treat hair loss, you will need a drug that will stop hair loss (seti), and a drug that will patch up thinning spots (bim). Luckily, bim will work anywhere on the scalp. Not a coincidence, either, because if this combo works as well, they control medical aesthetics for the entire head and face. 

Many doctors have said PGE2 up, PGD2 down = hair. Not a coincidence.

----------


## rdawg

It's an interesting combination for sure, I dont think seti was what they were after as you guys have stated but was part of the package that appealed to them doing the buyout.

this is good news though, Allergans is a big, powerful company and has alot of money to fund into this stuff and BIM and Seti are two very interesting and seemingly effective products.

at the very least we get results in early 2016, but I think there will be some kind of announcement with these two in the next few months here.

All in all, nothing ultra-positive, but we at least have some reason to be optimistic and 100% big news, good or bad will be coming to us very soon with CB, SM, BIM and SETI all moving to the next phase or finishing up their next phase within the next 6 months.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

I came across an interview with David Pyott, and Jim Cramer from a few years ago, and they began talking about latisse etc. Pyott (former CEO of Allergan) said that before Latisse was even released, people were trying to get their hands on it. This would also be a problem for the mpb version. 

Now, with regard to bim for the scalp - yes, in this instance, people would try and get their hands on it as well, and they could. Not only that, but as many of you know, Allergan has been in recent legal battles with companies who can make generic bim. 

(*I am completely speculating here, but I think I could be right in this instance*) 
So, to prevent people from buying this stuff themselves, or other companies/labs attempting to distribute bim at the right concentration, Allergan has kept completely quiet about the phase 2b trial. At the same time, they have quietly progressed with phase 3, and with the FDA's permission, have not posted a registered trial on clinicaltrials.gov.

 I believe this is possible because they've already recruited participants from previous trials, and have the necessary amount for a phase 3 (meaning, there is no need to post as a recruitment tool). Also, this would prevent people from trying to get their hands on this drug before it came out, as well as the companies/labs who would seek to do the same. I believe this sort of arrangement could be made in this instance, in order to protect consumers from testing an unregulated chemical on themselves. I think given the FDA's stance on safety, this is a possibility. Allergan's experienced this sort of attempt with Latisse before it came out, and now that the drug is actually in the market, all the more likely and possible. 

Every time, it seems when someone from a hair loss forum attempts to ask about the trial or drug, the person they speak with acts like they've never even heard of it. They're not guarding a failure. Allergan is too big of a company at this point to be afraid of a failed drug or trial. 

Yes, the FDA sticks by the rules, but big pharma, and FDA work together. If a company producing a drug has very good reason (like the safety of others, and the protection of a company's ability to make money) to not post to the clinical trials website, I believe the FDA would certainly allow a small accommodation such as this.

----------


## FearTheLoss

lol 2014, I really love most of your posts. You keep the forum positive and are optimistic and I share your optimism that we will have better treatments in the future..but come on man, to suggest they already started phase III secretly is a little absurd.

----------


## Ziggyz123

I really wish that bim wasn't like minoxidil where you stop using and your hair just falls out lol. I don't know if this is old news or not, but I just saw my derm again two days ago and she is usually up on hair treatments and what not. She said that last she heard, there was a treatment (bim) that had good results, but the company was trying to get around the hyper pigmentation effects it had. It is known in the eye lash application, but I guess it was also affecting the scalp too.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> lol 2014, I really love most of your posts. You keep the forum positive and are optimistic and I share your optimism that we will have better treatments in the future..but come on man, to suggest they already started phase III secretly is a little absurd.


 Thank you, thank you lol. I'm not saying "secret," just not posted to clinicaltrials.gov for the reasons I have posted. I don't think it's that absurd. Is it really that much of a big deal not to post to a publicly accessible website? They don't need to recruit, and there is strong reason to believe their work will be stolen and/or used before it has had a chance to pass trials. There would be an incentive to omit posting in this case. 

You really think the FDA would say no? They would be protecting consumers if they said yes.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I really wish that bim wasn't like minoxidil where you stop using and your hair just falls out lol. I don't know if this is old news or not, but I just saw my derm again two days ago and she is usually up on hair treatments and what not. She said that last she heard, there was a treatment (bim) that had good results, but the company was trying to get around the hyper pigmentation effects it had. It is known in the eye lash application, but I guess it was also affecting the scalp too.


 hmm, well if it happens already with an approved drug, I wonder if it's that big of a deal. Also, I'd take hyperpigmentation on my scalp over dark circles around the eyes like you get with minox.

----------


## Hemo

2014, you're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist.  You can theorize all you want but none of it matters until results and/or a product is released.  I'm as eager as everyone else here but we just have to sit back and wait.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> 2014, you're starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist.  You can theorize all you want but none of it matters until results and/or a product is released.  I'm as eager as everyone else here but we just have to sit back and wait.


 LOL Yea thanks

----------


## champpy

Im worried about bim for one reason. It is a hair growth stimulant. If it works shouldnt it work to regrow hair, with or without seti? I mean i understand that these two may work better in conjunction we each other but if you are already maintaining with fin or dut, you wouldnt need seti, so why wouldnt bim alone be of some help?
Minox is sold as a growth stimulant . We use fin  to help maintain that growth.
why is it bims release is dependant on seti? Sad to say but it leads me to think that bim alone is not that great afterall

Hopefully someone can set me straight on this

----------


## Justinian

> Im worried about bim for one reason. It is a hair growth stimulant. If it works shouldnt it work to regrow hair, with or without seti? I mean i understand that these two may work better in conjunction we each other but if you are already maintaining with fin or dut, you wouldnt need seti, so why wouldnt bim alone be of some help?
> Minox is sold as a growth stimulant . We use fin  to help maintain that growth.
> why is it bims release is dependant on seti? Sad to say but it leads me to think that bim alone is not that great afterall
> 
> Hopefully someone can set me straight on this


 Bim should work alone... But think of it like this: bim is pressing the gas pedal of a car and seti is releasing the brake pedal. If you just use bim, you have the gas pedal down but the brake pedal is pressed too so you won't be going too fast.

This is just speculation from one article I read, so this analogy may or may not apply until they are tested.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

A little bit of fin (microdoses a few times a week) plus bim could go a really long way.

----------


## champpy

I really hope this SCALP treatment they may have will do something. I for one tried the 0.03% for about 4 months and I cant really see any growth at all. Nothing significant at all, which sucked. Thought I would at lease get a few new hairs, id even settle for some vellus.

But alas , nothing.

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

Does anyone know when Actavis/Allergan plans to release their 2015 Q2 report?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

You guys are going to think I'm nuts, but I'm starting to wonder if Allergan is going to announce bim August 6th at their Q2 earnings conference call. 

I say this because poster, "bornthisway" says that he heard from a dermatologists office that claims to work closely with Allergan says they plan on releasing a hair loss product based on bimatoprost as early as this summer. BiqqieSmalls is a shareholder of Allergan stock, and he spoke with Investor Relations back in May, and they said, they haven't released results, even to shareholders. The then asked then when, and they responded "in a few months." When he asked what was taking so long, they said it was because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." 

I think it's possible that we might either see results, or some sort of announcement. I think they've been holding back because a) people will be trying to get their hands on it before the release b) the acquisition of Kythera and setipiprant. There is a lot going on behind the scenes, and since Allergan seems very determined to dominate medical aesthetics, they are going to want to cover the entire hair loss market by having the new minoxidil and propecia, but only more effective, and without the sides. 

Keep a look out. I think it's possible.

----------


## luca10

It would be the happiest day of my life

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> It would be the happiest day of my life


 That makes two of us

----------


## JayM

How can they release it without phase 3?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> How can they release it without phase 3?


 I'd mention what I believe is going on, but I don't feel like getting into a debate. Please see my other posts in this thread regarding phase 3. 

If you don't think it's at all possible, I'm calling BS, because they'd be at a serious disadvantage by posting that they are in a phase 3 trial, while the drug is already in the market. There's also the issue of people wanting to get their hands on this drug before it reaches the market, and they had the same problem with latisse earlier on.

----------


## 20legend

'2014' where did the poster 'bornthisway' post this news about the derm's office in contact with Allergan?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> '2014' where did the poster 'bornthisway' post this news about the derm's office in contact with Allergan?


 https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...toprost/page15 

bottom of the page

----------


## JayM

I'd quite like to hear why you think it will be able to miss phase 3  :Smile: . Like not to argue just because it's interesting! And to be fair I've only heard of Bim from my Grandad because his eyes are messed up haha! I understand that bim is currently used in eye drops ect and for lattisse but has there ever been drugs allowed to skip phase 3 for a different use kind of thing?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I'd quite like to hear why you think it will be able to miss phase 3 . Like not to argue just because it's interesting! And to be fair I've only heard of Bim from my Grandad because his eyes are messed up haha! I understand that bim is currently used in eye drops ect and for lattisse but has there ever been drugs allowed to skip phase 3 for a different use kind of thing?


 lol ok fine. There are just some dudes on here who test my patience with their endless negativity, and being so contrary just for the sake of it. It cannot skip phase 3.

 I've done a lot of digging - reading articles, watching interviews etc. It seems to me that a very likely scenario is that they've continued on with trials. However, the trial hasn't been posted to clinicaltrials.gov with very good reason. 

Firstly, this drug already exists in the market, and according to former Allergan CEO David Pyott, many people were trying to get their hands on latisse before it got to market. In this case, it would be worse because other companies can make the drug, and if you wanted, you could buy pure bimatoprost powder off a website like alibaba.com and make it yourself. This would hurt their profits and their customers. The drug has not passed trials yet, and the FDA wouldn't want an outrageous situation where a popular hair loss treatment would get in the hands of the public in a unsafe and unregulated fashion, because this would undoubtedly happen if word got out. 

Secondly, they set up their phase 2 trials with enough participants so that if they saw positive results, they could immediately jump into a phase 3. Therefore, posting to clinicaltrials.gov as a recruitment tool wouldn't be necessary.

So, I think they could have quietly progressed, and in accordance with the FDA, have omitted their trial to be posted on clinicaltrials.gov, for the reasons I have posted. It's unusual, complex, but I think it makes more sense then them slowing down the program by a year, if it was successful. There's no reason to do that.

I also think the acquisition of Kythera and Setipiprant is good reason to believe bimatoprost worked. With that move, it proves they want to dominate the medical aesthetics market. Not only that, but they are mutually reliant on prostaglandin science, which is why they are as positive about Setipiprant as they are. About 10% of men do something about their hair loss. With a side effect-free drug like setipiprant, and a drug that will regrow anywhere on the scalp, that number would jump to near 100%. Which means $$$$$$$$$$$$. No man wants to be bald.

----------


## Slam1523

> lol ok fine. There are just some dudes on here who test my patience with their endless negativity, and being so contrary just for the sake of it. It cannot skip phase 3.
> 
>  I've done a lot of digging - reading articles, watching interviews etc. It seems to me that a very likely scenario is that they've continued on with trials. However, the trial hasn't been posted to clinicaltrials.gov with very good reason. 
> 
> Firstly, this drug already exists in the market, and according to former Allergan CEO David Pyott, many people were trying to get their hands on latisse before it got to market. In this case, it would be worse because other companies can make the drug, and if you wanted, you could buy pure bimatoprost powder off a website like alibaba.com and make it yourself. This would hurt their profits and their customers. The drug has not passed trials yet, and the FDA wouldn't want an outrageous situation where a popular hair loss treatment would get in the hands of the public in a unsafe and unregulated fashion, because this would undoubtedly happen if word got out. 
> 
> Secondly, they set up their phase 2 trials with enough participants so that if they saw positive results, they could immediately jump into a phase 3. Therefore, posting to clinicaltrials.gov as a recruitment tool wouldn't be necessary.
> 
> So, I think they could have quietly progressed, and in accordance with the FDA, have omitted their trial to be posted on clinicaltrials.gov, for the reasons I have posted. It's unusual, complex, but I think it makes more sense then them slowing down the program by a year, if it was successful. There's no reason to do that.
> ...


 That's a lot of confidence...  I'd love for you to be right!

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> That's a lot of confidence...  I'd love for you to be right!


 Can you imagine the stampede of people trying to get bimatoprost the black market route, or the number of labs that would concoct and sell it themselves if word got out?

----------


## Hemo

> lol ok fine. There are just some dudes on here who test my patience with their endless negativity, and being so contrary just for the sake of it. It cannot skip phase 3.
> 
>  I've done a lot of digging - reading articles, watching interviews etc. It seems to me that a very likely scenario is that they've continued on with trials. However, the trial hasn't been posted to clinicaltrials.gov with very good reason. 
> 
> Firstly, this drug already exists in the market, and according to former Allergan CEO David Pyott, many people were trying to get their hands on latisse before it got to market. In this case, it would be worse because other companies can make the drug, and if you wanted, you could buy pure bimatoprost powder off a website like alibaba.com and make it yourself. This would hurt their profits and their customers. The drug has not passed trials yet, and the FDA wouldn't want an outrageous situation where a popular hair loss treatment would get in the hands of the public in a unsafe and unregulated fashion, because this would undoubtedly happen if word got out. 
> 
> Secondly, they set up their phase 2 trials with enough participants so that if they saw positive results, they could immediately jump into a phase 3. Therefore, posting to clinicaltrials.gov as a recruitment tool wouldn't be necessary.
> 
> So, I think they could have quietly progressed, and in accordance with the FDA, have omitted their trial to be posted on clinicaltrials.gov, for the reasons I have posted. It's unusual, complex, but I think it makes more sense then them slowing down the program by a year, if it was successful. There's no reason to do that.
> ...


 I really think you're overemphasizing the Kythera acquisition.  Lets face it, Allergan wanted the double chin treatment and anything else is a bonus.  There's no reason for an Allergan rep to talk poorly about set until they decide what they truly want to do with it, of course he's gonna say he's excited.  You and nameless keep coming up with these grandiose ideas of what's going on behind the scenes for bim and SM when we really have no clue, and won't until something is released.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I really think you're overemphasizing the Kythera acquisition.  Lets face it, Allergan wanted the double chin treatment and anything else is a bonus.  There's no reason for an Allergan rep to talk poorly about set until they decide what they truly want to do with it, of course he's gonna say he's excited.  You and nameless keep coming up with these grandiose ideas of what's going on behind the scenes for bim and SM when we really have no clue, and won't until something is released.


 So you think that Set was "just a bonus" and doesn't fit with anything they have? lol The people who run these companies are extremely calculating. 

To think that they bought a company for $2B and all they wanted a was a drug that is matched by diet and exercise.

Also that Allergan rep was their CEO who said that Set will "Drive additional long term growth." That's quite an endorsement.

My ideas aren't grandiose. I've done a lot of research, and I connect the dots the best I can. Sorry you disagree, maybe you should do a little more homework.

----------


## Trouse5858

The fact that they care more about a freaking double chin treatment (AKA don't be a fat slob. Cured!) as opposed to hairloss makes me want to light myself on fire and jump out of a building.

----------


## Hemo

> So you think that Set was "just a bonus" and doesn't fit with anything they have? lol The people who run these companies are extremely calculating. 
> 
> To think that they bought a company for $2B and all they wanted a was a drug that is matched by diet and exercise.
> 
> Also that Allergan rep was their CEO who said that Set will "Drive additional long term growth." That's quite an endorsement.
> 
> My ideas aren't grandiose. I've done a lot of research, and I connect the dots the best I can. Sorry you disagree, maybe you should do a little more homework.


 Yes, I think they likely saw some value in Seti, but I think their commitment will come down to how much more they have to invest.  If it's effective and won't require another 10 years to develop, then sure, I bet they're happy.

And to shrug off the double chin treatment because it's something that has the same effect as diet and exercise is incredibly naive.  How many women have you heard say they would like to lose a couple pounds? How many do you think would prefer to stop by a doctor's office for an injection rather than spend months at the gym while eating well?  The fact of the matter is that people are lazy, and even if it's just for double chins, they're making it incredibly easy to get rid of, which will attract many many people that a.) don't exercise routinely and b.) don't want surgery.  TBH, I'd bet they're more interested in expanding the research for this treatment for other parts of the body than they are in Seti.

I'm not saying Seti will get dropped (hell, it could be incredibly effective), but I doubt Allergan would have given Kythera the time of day without the chin treatment.  And reread your posts - you're not connecting dots, you're making dots up and then speculating about fictitious info.  There is absolutely nothing to back up most of what you said.

----------


## Hemo

(and I'm not trying to be negative, just a realist.  The fact of the matter is that none of this means anything until a product is released).

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> And reread your posts - you're not connecting dots, you're making dots up and then speculating about fictitious info.  There is absolutely nothing to back up most of what you said.


 Ugh, then don't read my posts. I don't make up dots, and I never have. I don't have the time to re-reference what I post. You're just uninformed. This is why I didn't want to post about this, because I knew somebody would come out of the blue and say "ur making this stuff up."

Bottom line: I don't give a crap what you think. I don't pull stuff from thin air. If you're curious, from now on, do your own damn homework.

BTW you've speculated a ton with how important Seti is to Allergan, as well as pretty much everything about their double-chin drug.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> The fact that they care more about a freaking double chin treatment (AKA don't be a fat slob. Cured!) as opposed to hairloss makes me want to light myself on fire and jump out of a building.


 That's complete speculation. By the way, Kybella costs about $2400 on average, yea so I'm sure the next time someone becomes overweight they will pay that much just to have their double-chin removed, and keep the fat on their stomach, thighs, face, arms etc. 

Surely that's what most people would do.

----------


## Hemo

> That's complete speculation. By the way, Kybella costs about $2400 on average, yea so I'm sure the next time someone becomes overweight they will pay that much just to have their double-chin removed, and keep the fat on their stomach, thighs, face, arms etc. 
> 
> Surely that's what most people would do.


 Compare the $2400 cost to surgery, because that is what it's going up against.  A less invasive and more affordable procedure is going to attract more people and can't really be downplayed (2400 really is not that much compared to other cosmetic procedures).  Look at it this way - if there was an injectable hair loss treatment that was cheaper than (or even more expensive)  a hair transplant and just as effective, which would you choose?

just saying "They haven't released bim results and won't tell investors about them, so results must be great.  Oh, and they likely moved on to phase 3 with the same participants since the trials can't be found anywhere, and they'll announce everything on their next call.  Yup, that's it!"

Even if it's very effective, which it very well might be, I think it's more up to whether or not they can protect the drug.  They're not going to continue to invest in a treatment that other companies can recreate using bim.  I'm not arguing whether or not it's effective since I have no clue, but you've made some lofty conclusions based on essentially nothing.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Compare the $2400 cost to surgery, because that is what it's going up against.  A less invasive and more affordable procedure is going to attract more people and can't really be downplayed (2400 really is not that much compared to other cosmetic procedures).  Look at it this way - if there was an injectable hair loss treatment that was cheaper than (or even more expensive)  a hair transplant and just as effective, which would you choose?
> 
> just saying "They haven't released bim results and won't tell investors about them, so results must be great.  Oh, and they likely moved on to phase 3 with the same participants since the trials can't be found anywhere, and they'll announce everything on their next call.  Yup, that's it!"
> 
> Even if it's very effective, which it very well might be, I think it's more up to whether or not they can protect the drug.  They're not going to continue to invest in a treatment that other companies can recreate using bim.  I'm not arguing whether or not it's effective since I have no clue, but you've made some lofty conclusions based on essentially nothing.


 Dude, I don't care. Agree to disagree.

btw the cost of kybella to lipo for submental fullness is essentially the same, you can look it up.

I just want to point out that my conclusions are my own, but they are based on actual facts surrounding these drugs themselves. Take the time to actually look this stuff up. Everything you've posted is complete opinion and nothing more. 

Done.

----------


## breakbot

> Dude, I don't care. Agree to disagree.
> 
> btw the cost of kybella to lipo for submental fullness is essentially the same, you can look it up.
> 
> *I just want to point out that my conclusions are my own, but they are based on actual facts surrounding these drugs themselves*. Take the time to actually look this stuff up. Everything you've posted is complete opinion and nothing more. 
> 
> Done.


  You are a natural talent in bs. Bimatoprost is pretty much dead that's why they will not release the results. If you like to study do your homework and inform us which companies  announce failed tested drugs. Another crazy idea that came from your head is that they had great results and they want to stop people from testing it. I doubt that people outside these crazy forums would test a drug from uknown sources.
Man you should stop dreaming about it.

----------


## champpy

So let me ask. We have Bim already available to us, but the concentration they were using is too expensive to make on our own, right?

I say that if they don't tell us if it works or not by the conference call in april, we pool some money together and have a 5% concentration made and choose a trusted test subject to try it out. 

That way we will have a good idea if this is even worth our time or not.  Im willing to put $50 dollars down. If we can get a group to donate $25 each I think we could raise enough to get a batch made and we can test it ourselves.

Would anyone else be in for this "test", or are there all kinds of problems with my test idea?

----------


## Hemo

> Dude, I don't care. Agree to disagree.
> 
> btw the cost of kybella to lipo for submental fullness is essentially the same, you ctjn look it up.
> 
> I just want to point out that my conclusions are my own, but they are based on actual facts surrounding these drugs themselves. Take the time to actually look this stuff up. Everything you've posted is complete opinion and nothing more. 
> 
> Done.


 Again, it's about convenience and invasiveness.  Lets wait and see.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> You are a natural talent in bs. Bimatoprost is pretty much dead that's why they will not release the results. If you like to study do your homework and inform us which companies  announce failed tested drugs. Another crazy idea that came from your head is that they had great results and they want to stop people from testing it. I doubt that people outside these crazy forums would test a drug from uknown sources.
> Man you should stop dreaming about it.


 You're pretty bullheaded, and you admitted in another thread that you're not optimistic about anything and have a negative bias. 

For the last time - this drug exists in the market. Anyone with enough money or determination could make it themselves if positive results were released. But, they haven't released ANY results, so we just don't know. My ideas make sense, but like I said you have an obvious negative bias and are bullheaded. 

We'll see who's right soon enough.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Again, it's about convenience and invasiveness.  Lets wait and see.


 Buddy, Kybella requires 50 injections in one sitting. I'd hardly say that's convenient or non-invasive.

----------


## breakbot

> You're pretty bullheaded, and you admitted in another thread that you're not optimistic about anything and have a negative bias. 
> 
> For the last time - this drug exists in the market. Anyone with enough money or determination could make it themselves if positive results were released. But, they haven't released ANY results, so we just don't know. My ideas make sense, but like I said you have an obvious negative bias and are bullheaded. 
> 
> We'll see who's right soon enough.


 Ok you conviced me. Why don't you try it? You revealed allergan's plan so it doesn't matter anymore, so you have to be the first from the forum who will have his eyes colour changed, because i believe that's a strong reason they stopped the procedure. 
We will see..

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Ok you conviced me. Why don't you try it? You revealed allergan's plan so it doesn't matter anymore, so you have to be the first from the forum who will have his eyes colour changed, because i believe that's a strong reason they stopped the procedure. 
> We will see..


 1. Pure bimatoprost powder is very expensive. I wouldn't be able to afford it, but let's say they revealed that the trial went well and they are carrying out a phase 3. They still have to take a year to complete it, meanwhile, labs like kane or whoever can buy pure bimatoprost powder in bulk, make the 3% solution and sell it to anyone. Don't believe me? Look how easy it is if you have the money - http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...5.1.3QxuCv&s=p

2. Bimatoprost only darkens the iris if it is directly applied directly to the eye, or while applying latisse, some gets in your eye. You're not going to change your eye color if you're applying it to your scalp, it doesn't work that way. You can look that up if you think I'm lying. There is no evidence to support your claim.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Does anyone know when Actavis/Allergan plans to release their 2015 Q2 report?


 Sorry, don't know if you saw my posts, but it's on August 6th in the morning, 8:30am I believe.

If not, I'm giving up on bim. Well, at least till January when they legally have to post results.

----------


## hellouser

So it's been how many since they were supposed to publish results?

Nice of them to spit in the face of everyone involved with BIM. Pathetic.

----------


## joel203

> Sorry, don't know if you saw my posts, but it's on August 6th in the morning, 8:30am I believe.
> 
> If not, I'm giving up on bim. Well, at least till January when they legally have to post results.


 do you expect them to announce the results on the 6th august then?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> do you expect them to announce the results on the 6th august then?


 I'm hoping so! 

Kobren said he had heard the results were really good - better than minox, and enough to take some people off propecia

"Bornthisway" said he was told by a dematologists office that claims to work closely with Allergan and that they're really close ("like this summer" he says) to releasing a hair loss treatment based on bim. Said he found it interesting that they even knew about the drug being in trials. 

"BiqqieSmalls" is an Allergan shareholder - he called up investor relations and asked why haven't the results (even to shareholders) been released yet. They said because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." I'm not sure what that means, but if you read my other posts, I've tried to make sense of that answer with actual facts that possibly could explain it. Also, he asked when they'd release results and they said "in a few months." He asked back in early May, and that would make it abt 3-4 months. 

In other articles I've read, the Head of R&D at Allergan, Scott Whitcup said that they recruited enough people in phase 2 so that if they saw positive results, they could immediately jump into a phase 3. The phase 2 trial began in August 2013, and the primary outcome measure (end of the study) was in September 2014, for some reason the actual end of the trial was in January 2015.

So, I think it's possible. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

----------


## burtandernie

Id be most curious to just see results from any studies. Every new treatment also brings much more understanding about why MPB happens enabling future avenues of further research. Look how popular DHT became after propecia. I mean tons of stuff into AAs after that because we had proof androgens are critical to MPB

----------


## Pelopeleon

So... Could bimatoprost be closer to be released than we think?

----------


## lupero83

for those who have not read .
Why they say the August 6 results were published ?. Thank You
http://www.bradford.ac.uk/life-scien...-hair-loss.php

----------


## JayM

That link is from 2012...? The guy who thinks the results could be mentioned on the 6th of august this year has explained why he thinks so.

----------


## dutchguyhanging

all i read about BIM is that the product is inferior to minox. so I dont think this would be enough to pitch it to the market. Real opportunities not lies within this forum but outside. I dont think it would be successful if it shows slightly better results than minox or fin or dut whatever. 

I already hear people saying yeah but i'd switch it as long as its side effect free.... yeah mate you are the minority..... Market needs a full blown cure or something permanent in combination with HT. I have alot of friends who are NW4-5 and do not use any of these substances. Does it mean they dont care about hairloss.. they do but the thing is the results are just not good enough, and u need to take it every day....


As a marketeer, my advise is to come up with something gamechanger or there is no market for you anyways. Probably thats also why replicel has stated that they have found the cure. Lets be honest no one is interested about mediocre treatments at this point. Either solve the equation or leave the table

----------


## diffuseloser

Well put. However, it would be something to have a treatment that performs without the sides. Diffuse loss is common among us and one of these treatments could be a revelation with diffuse loss. I've seen some mind blowing results with fin/RU/minox with diffuse loss. Would be fantastic to have a solid, go-to treatment that would eliminate the need for the 3 above and make them a thing of the past. I suppose that's asking too much as it's disappointment after disappointment as usual. But I agree, there's too much pissing about and someone needs to come up with the goods.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Well put. However, it would be something to have a treatment that performs without the sides. Diffuse loss is common among us and one of these treatments could be a revelation with diffuse loss. I've seen some mind blowing results with fin/RU/minox with diffuse loss. Would be fantastic to have a solid, go-to treatment that would eliminate the need for the 3 above and make them a thing of the past. I suppose that's asking too much as it's disappointment after disappointment as usual. But I agree, there's too much pissing about and someone needs to come up with the goods.


 The reason why I believe bimatoprost will be an excellent treatment is because it supposedly works better than minoxidil (at the right concentration), can work anywhere on the scalp, and studies have shown that it protects against the ravages of DHT. All that, and side effect free. Maybe some skin irritation with prolonged use, but I'd definitely go for that. Also, once you've reached a density or hair thickness you are pleased with, in their patents, they show that it can be applied once, twice, three times a week to maintain. Not every day. 

It would be a game changing treatment if it delivers on those things. If it does, then it would definitely take from finasteride and minoxidil.

----------


## dutchguyhanging

yet again you guys are maybe like 5% of the community. the rest thinks binary, cure or not. there are hell alot of other things in life we are busy with. we need to make nw7 to nw1. could BIM provide that? the answer is most probably not. then it is over. because you will never ever reach to that majority.

I know all guys care about hair loss... however most of us got discouraged by the mediocre treatments and move on with our life. if u give a cure then we dont need to move on as simple as it is... in other words i dont see how they can make a profitable business model out of it. even if u penetrate into 5% still it wont be enough as there are many cheap knock off sorts like

----------


## JayM

Well we don't know the results yet so wait and see. Although that link which was posted is from 2012 it shows that the researches felt like they had something really good on their hands - Which is why the think they would have a good business model from it. If its better than minoxidil then more people will use it. If you only have to use it once a day/3x a week after you have had good regrowth then again that will tap into more people. If the results show that it is also reducing DHT levels in the scalp again, more people. Some people think it could work great with seti, if that becomes the case then maybe people will be able to retain their hair for 10 years more at the same density. This means more people will go get a HT ect. Maybe it wont solve nw7 to nw1 but if you can have seti/bim/fin all together and means you can prevent balding for another 10/15/20 years then that sounds a lot better to me than being bald in my twenties. When something like that starts coming out young guys can use it. Fine it isn't helping the people who are already nw5 but after 3 years that's 3 years of young guys or guys who have just started to bald who will be halting a disease for years. Frankly there are only nw5's because as you said, why bother treat it if there is nothing. But I don't believe people say cure or nothing. If you say prevention for 20 years then people will be game. I personally don't think Bim will give us that but it's another step.

And anyway research is vital. They found a product which grew hair so why not research it. It's only going to help in the long run.

----------


## burtandernie

Im not sure what your saying but if bim delivers on all that stuff like work better than minox, fight DHT some, and only a few times a week to maintain its going to be huge and a major game changer. I mean every guy losing hair at first is going to look at what they can do if they care about it. Anyone NW 7 thinking some treatment is going to take them back to NW 1 is living in fantasy land. One step at a time and this would be a big step just going up 1 norwood or so
I worry the cost is going to be sky high though, but I can always use propecia instead. Im not getting hyped though until its released and proven to work that well. Way too many false hopes to jump on another hype train yet
How well BIM works will vary by person just like propecia. Guy A maintains for 4 years and guy B maintains for 15 just depends. Some guys maintain for 15 years just on propecia.

----------


## dutchguyhanging

exactly you 'd buy it but not my friends. my friends as in the biggest majority (90%) because u can only maintain what you have and we dont even know if it is going to work or not or how long.

I dont understand sh*t about hair loss or why we losing it or how we can save it. simply because i dont need to. I see on this forum people talking pages and pages why it should work or not. It is just a laugh matter to me.

Gentleman, we have been facing with this problem since our existence. yet no one come up with a cure. How realistic to assume we can have it within next years? 

I know here im contradicting with myself but all i am saying is you wont survive in the market if your product is inferior to minox or fin. this is as simple as it is. we need something that works for everyone not just maintains. first thing in the morning to check how many hairs u see on ur pillow or keep asking how much longer these substances can halt ur hairloss. This is pathetic.. there is nothing for us unless of course u make nw7 to nw1.

and i most certainly dont believe mw7 to mw1 is a big step if you know why we are losing our hair or find how to treat it. look at eye surgeries, can they make ur eye frm 10 to 0? the answer is yes. so why not on hair. I know these are not comparable but my point is not that

----------


## JayM

Why comment then? Once you have a treatment which could halt for double the time we have now I will jump straight on it and feel comfortable getting a HT. Bim and Seti and SM work completely different than AA so you are attacking it from different angles. If you do this and keep your hair for 20 more years than you normally would in 5 years time there will be a massive minority of people holding hair on your product. You are essentially serving the new market of early onset Mpb. Which will soon be the norm if it's better than minox but doesn't have to mean insane regrowth. 

I understand where you are coming from but if you have SM/bim/Seti/replicel then a new majority will form of people who have MPB but can hold it off for a huge chunk of their life. 

And the point is if you find completely what causes mpb it doesn't mean your hair will regrow. Preventing it most certainly does not mean follicle neogenisis. Personally I think it could because I've seen amazing transgender results but we don't know.

----------


## burtandernie

Maintaining is the best that can be done now, and any of this like bim might regrow some decent hair too.  Some will and some wont. So I mean either buy or dont its not anyone job to convince people to think a certain way. I cant convince a pessimist something good will happen no matter what. So why bother just let them keep seeing the glass half empty then
It wont be inferior to minox or propecia they are much smarter than us and know that without being told so.

----------


## joel203

I sincerely believe in the future mpb will be a case of you can hold it off for a long long while but not prevent it when the time comes, ( a full reversal cure is minimum 25 years imo) here's hoping we can hold onto what we have until those better days if they do come

----------


## Occulus

> I sincerely believe in the future mpb will be a case of you can hold it off for a long long while but not prevent it when the time comes, ( a full reversal cure is minimum 25 years imo) here's hoping we can hold onto what we have until those better days if they do come


 I'm not as optimistic as most and don't think we'll see anything that can reverse two Norword classifications for at least seven to ten years or so (but maybe something that can grow one Norwood classification within ten years - which would still change a lot of lives), but to say it will take 25 years before a paradigm-changing protocol comes along is absolutely absurd.  The velocity of technology says that's simply not going to be the case.  Within 25 years we will have autonomous vehicles (cars, personal aircraft, etc.), true AI, effective treatments for cancer, cloned organs, and eve possibly life-extension treatments - but not an effective protocol for hair loss?

----------


## dutchguyhanging

no absolutely not.... mediocrity is the worst of all. i agree with some other people who think fin and minox are the worst thngs happened to hair loss industry.  i see where u all coming from. but we simply dont wanna live our lifes by looking over our shoulders.
i still dont undeerstand why people cuould give a timeline. it is toxic.. it can be tomorrow or 200years later

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Interesting thought - don't know if it means anything, but since Allergan sold all of its generics business to Teva, that includes generic finasteride.

----------


## maver1ck

> Interesting thought - don't know if it means anything, but since Allergan sold all of its generics business to Teva, that includes generic finasteride.


 Can you fill me in as to why that would mean something? Honest question

----------


## Pelopeleon

Tomorrow is realeased some info about bimatoprost, right?

----------


## maver1ck

> Tomorrow is realeased some info about bimatoprost, right?


 Yes. Something like 8:45 AM they release q2 report. But one member on this thread remarked that they might not release any information, and will instead wait until january when they have to divulge by law. If they dont release any information, then Im not to sure how confident I am about BIM. However, people have heard good things and maybe they are actually going to release something.

----------


## JayM

I hope they do mention it but I wouldn't be surprised if the recent purchase of their generics drugs department takes up most of it. I mean it was a massive deal!

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I hope they do mention it but I wouldn't be surprised if the recent purchase of their generics drugs department takes up most of it. I mean it was a massive deal!


 They'll most likely talk about the Kythera acquisition, the selling of its generics, and hopefully something about bimatoprost. 

Poster "Biqqiesmalls" is a shareholder, and he spoke with investor relations back in May. They refused to tell him anything initially, but was promised that they'd look into it for him. He got a call 2 days later, and was told that results were not released yet, even to shareholders, the reason they haven't released results yet was because of the "complexity of bimatoprost," and that they'd release results "in a few months." 

I trust the word of that representative because she looked into it for him, and called him back. So, I doubt she would lie. 

I thought the selling of all its generics, including finasteride, was interesting because of their interest in commercializing set and bim. Probably of no consequence, but whatever.

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

> They'll most likely talk about the Kythera acquisition, the selling of its generics, and hopefully something about bimatoprost. 
> 
> Poster "Biqqiesmalls" is a shareholder, and he spoke with investor relations back in May. They refused to tell him anything initially, but was promised that they'd look into it for him. He got a call 2 days later, and was told that results were not released yet, even to shareholders, the reason they haven't released results yet was because of the "complexity of bimatoprost," and that they'd release results "in a few months." 
> 
> I trust the word of that representative because she looked into it for him, and called him back. So, I doubt she would lie. 
> 
> I thought the selling of all its generics, including finasteride, was interesting because of their interest in commercializing set and bim. Probably of no consequence, but whatever.


 I had to call them back; the woman's explanation was ambiguous. Can't wait to check the report when I head into work

----------


## maver1ck

Allergan released their q2 report and there is only 1 mention of BIM and its that its starting phase 3 as a treatment for glaucoma  :Frown:

----------


## JayM

Joke

----------


## Pelopeleon

> Allergan released their q2 report and there is only 1 mention of BIM and its that its starting phase 3 as a treatment for glaucoma


 As a treatment for glaucoma? Are you f**** kidding me? 

Well, I was waiting for some good news...

----------


## JayM

Well it is used for treating glaucoma...

----------


## maver1ck

> Well it is used for treating glaucoma...


 Does that have any value to us?

----------


## JayM

Well the guy asked if they were kidding... so I thought it was best to mention that it being used for glaucoma hasn't come out the blue. So it certainly has value to the guy I wrote it to pal.

----------


## barfacan

It's over fellas, close this thread.  BIM is a BUST

----------


## allTheGoodNamesAreTaken

Quel ****ing surprise.

----------


## dus

If BIM for hair was scrapped they would tell investors. Everybody take a chill pill. The waiting game continues.

----------


## maver1ck

> If BIM for hair was scrapped they would tell investors. Everybody take a chill pill. The waiting game continues.


 If BIM was so promising as everyone had been led to believe then why not mention anything to the investors if it was successful?

----------


## dus

> If BIM was so promising as everyone had been led to believe then why not mention anything to the investors if it was successful?


 There is ZERO speculation in my post. I don't know what to make of BIM and will just wait for an official statement.

----------


## rdawg

> Allergan released their q2 report and there is only 1 mention of BIM and its that its starting phase 3 as a treatment for glaucoma


 2nd form of treatment BIM has gone to phase III on(first was eyelash growth which got approved).

Safety doesn't seem to be an issue here, something is up behind the scenes with the hairloss trial, patent issues maybe?

All signs point to this drug being safe and at least in theory effective, so what's the hold up!

----------


## Parsia

> There is ZERO speculation in my post. I don't know what to make of BIM and will just wait for an official statement.


 Ok then , Guys lets concentrate on something we have out there ! I believe the treatment is not only Two damn fda approved ! Remember 
took centuries for human to discover U.S , So there are many potents things out there for treatment baldness , we just have find our own way ! I won't follow this anymore.

----------


## champpy

Follicept. Failed.
Bim scalp. Failed
what potential treatment we are hoping for will be the next one to enter this treatment graveyard? 
This is so discouraging. Even if they said yeah its coming and it works, but will be a year or more away, i would be elated. I just want hope. All we get is false hope and then we are smacked back to reality each time. 

Follicept and bim were the only things we might possibly get our hands on in 2015. Now those seem dead and buried. 

Does anyone know where is a reputable place to buy pure bim powder. Im tempted to just buy the stuff myself and do a test of 1-2%, even if its expensive as hell. Im tired of the waiting game. None of us are getting any younger.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Follicept. Failed.
> Bim scalp. Failed
> what potential treatment we are hoping for will be the next one to enter this treatment graveyard? 
> This is so discouraging. Even if they said yeah its coming and it works, but will be a year or more away, i would be elated. I just want hope. All we get is false hope and then we are smacked back to reality each time. 
> 
> Follicept and bim were the only things we might possibly get our hands on in 2015. Now those seem dead and buried. 
> 
> Does anyone know where is a reputable place to buy pure bim powder. Im tempted to just buy the stuff myself and do a test of 1-2%, even if its expensive as hell. Im tired of the waiting game. None of us are getting any younger.


 *Still no evidence that bim has failed*. Technically, the last trial ended in September, because that's when the primary outcome measure was taken. It has been a very long time, and still, they haven't release results to investors. There is a difference between releasing results to the public and releasing them to investors. Something else is going on here. 

When BiqqieSmalls (a shareholder) called them a few months ago, he was told that the results haven't been released yet because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." Also, that they would be released "in a few months." A "few" is a pretty loose term, but it could mean 3-5 months. It's been a very long time, and they could have said it failed.

 Investor relations could have dissuaded him and said it didn't do well, without giving any actual details or figures. Instead, they were like a stone wall. There is no reason for this company to be afraid of poor results from this drug for the scalp, because it clearly works for eyelashes and glaucoma. Therefore it's not a total failure. No loss to say it doesn't work for the scalp. But they haven't said that, and they haven't said that for nearly a year.

I have said all along that they do not want the word getting out that it works, because labs, individuals, and maybe other reputable companies would go ahead and purchase bimatoprost in bulk and formulate it themselves. I've also pointed out that in the past, when they were developing latisse, many people tried to get their hands on it (as noted by David Pyott, former CEO of Allergan). This is MPB, not eyelashes, the demand would be greater. The main deterrent is that bim powder is very expensive, and nobody knows if it works. By not letting anyone know, they have the power.  *They will not release results until they have a product ready to market or sell.* 

Bim is not dead, but if nothing is announced between now and January, then it is dead imo.

----------


## champpy

2014comeonalready, i love your optimism man. Listening  to you keeps a small glimmer of hope alive. But man your theory is almost as complex as bimatoprosts "complexities". Really we are basing all hope on two second hand accounts (one from an unnamed investment spokesperson and the other from a guys whos derm dr supposedly works close to allergen.) Not saying they are,  but both stories could be false. Oh and even spencer on his show said he heard positive things regarding bim, but gives nothing more than that. Then the fact that this drugs results are being hidden better than than the existence of aliens and ufos.
Like fox mulder would say, i want to believe. But man, sometimes the simplest answer is the right one. And now the simplest answer is they have nothing to report because it just didnt work.
i hope im wrong. I pray youre right.  But i just dont think bim is the answer. With the availability of bim nowadays, somebody out there with abundant cashflow should have used enough to have results.  But still we never hear stories of anyone growing scalp hair on this stuff. Not one person. 
Theres just no evidence. Just speculation. Im ready to forget bim and move on to the next false hope

----------


## breakbot

> *Still no evidence that bim has failed*. Technically, the last trial ended in September, because that's when the primary outcome measure was taken. It has been a very long time, and still, they haven't release results to investors. There is a difference between releasing results to the public and releasing them to investors. Something else is going on here. 
> 
> When BiqqieSmalls (a shareholder) called them a few months ago, he was told that the results haven't been released yet because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." Also, that they would be released "in a few months." A "few" is a pretty loose term, but it could mean 3-5 months. It's been a very long time, and they could have said it failed.
> 
>  Investor relations could have dissuaded him and said it didn't do well, without giving any actual details or figures. Instead, they were like a stone wall. There is no reason for this company to be afraid of poor results from this drug for the scalp, because it clearly works for eyelashes and glaucoma. Therefore it's not a total failure. No loss to say it doesn't work for the scalp. But they haven't said that, and they haven't said that for nearly a year.
> 
> I have said all along that they do not want the word getting out that it works, because labs, individuals, and maybe other reputable companies would go ahead and purchase bimatoprost in bulk and formulate it themselves. I've also pointed out that in the past, when they were developing latisse, many people tried to get their hands on it (as noted by David Pyott, former CEO of Allergan). This is MPB, not eyelashes, the demand would be greater. The main deterrent is that bim powder is very expensive, and nobody knows if it works. By not letting anyone know, they have the power.  *They will not release results until they have a product ready to market or sell.* 
> 
> Bim is not dead, but if nothing is announced between now and January, then it is dead imo.


  Bla bla...Why did they mention then the other drugs that will enter phase 3? For example the treatment of glaukoma.Wouldn't then those people try to buy from another sources this stuff to treat their disease? What makes hairloss unique?
You overrate hairloss market.If you do your homework as you say then you will see that the most companies don't release results of  failed projects.

----------


## Farkhairloss

This waiting is bullsh t. Do we know what percent they are or were trialling for scalp hair?  Is this Kane who a lot of guys are getting there RU off capable of making  a high contrate of Bim for a group buy at a reasonable price? Or if its that expensive to make we could chip in and get a nominated member to trial it?

----------


## allTheGoodNamesAreTaken

> This waiting is bullsh t. Do we know what percent they are or were trialling for scalp hair?  Is this Kane who a lot of guys are getting there RU off capable of making  a high contrate of Bim for a group buy at a reasonable price? *Or if its that expensive to make we could chip in and get a nominated member to trial it?*


 Recently posted a thread asking the same thing, 300 people have read it, no one bothered to reply.

----------


## maver1ck

> *Still no evidence that bim has failed*. Technically, the last trial ended in September, because that's when the primary outcome measure was taken. It has been a very long time, and still, they haven't release results to investors. There is a difference between releasing results to the public and releasing them to investors. Something else is going on here. 
> 
> When BiqqieSmalls (a shareholder) called them a few months ago, he was told that the results haven't been released yet because of the "complexity of bimatoprost." Also, that they would be released "in a few months." A "few" is a pretty loose term, but it could mean 3-5 months. It's been a very long time, and they could have said it failed.
> 
>  Investor relations could have dissuaded him and said it didn't do well, without giving any actual details or figures. Instead, they were like a stone wall. There is no reason for this company to be afraid of poor results from this drug for the scalp, because it clearly works for eyelashes and glaucoma. Therefore it's not a total failure. No loss to say it doesn't work for the scalp. But they haven't said that, and they haven't said that for nearly a year.
> 
> I have said all along that they do not want the word getting out that it works, because labs, individuals, and maybe other reputable companies would go ahead and purchase bimatoprost in bulk and formulate it themselves. I've also pointed out that in the past, when they were developing latisse, many people tried to get their hands on it (as noted by David Pyott, former CEO of Allergan). This is MPB, not eyelashes, the demand would be greater. The main deterrent is that bim powder is very expensive, and nobody knows if it works. By not letting anyone know, they have the power.  *They will not release results until they have a product ready to market or sell.* 
> 
> Bim is not dead, but if nothing is announced between now and January, then it is dead imo.


 I love the optimism. I dont necessarily think its dead in the water either but to play devils advocate with the whole "investor relation" point for a second. Why would a member of the company straight up tell an investor that a product has failed, especially a product that people are counting on to become a reality. I'm not saying that she was just placating him but its not out of the realm of possibility.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I love the optimism. I dont necessarily think its dead in the water either but to play devils advocate with the whole "investor relation" point for a second. Why would a member of the company straight up tell an investor that a product has failed, especially a product that people are counting on to become a reality. I'm not saying that she was just placating him but its not out of the realm of possibility.


 I've thought the same thing, but I think that investor relations person was honest and doing a good job. He called two days earlier and she refused to give any information, but promised to dig deeper. Two days later, she called and explained everything which I've written about. She didn't have to do anything, but she went out of her way to find out, then call him back. Clearly, he was very interested in the scalp product, and could've told him "I wouldn't get your hopes up on this particular product." 

Just to point out, what I'm saying that it is fishy, that after all this time, they still haven't released results or said this particular application has failed. Especially when there are two other uses for this product that do work. Meanwhile, you have people on here who've been to dermatologists offices that claim to work closely with Allergan and say they are planning to release a product based on bim for hair soon, like the summer. Then there's also Spencer Kobren who's said he'd been hearing that the last trial did really well. He was confident enough to say, "It's going to be great that we're going to have another weapon in our arsenal."

*My hope is waning. But like I said, if nothing is announced between now and January, it is dead. Right now it's just a waiting game.*

----------


## Tomtom21

This is my speculation and yes it is a speculation so take it as you'd like. 2014 tell me your opinion. I find it hard to believe it is dead when they have bim for hair loss listed as one of there products in late stage development for aesthetics in their presentation. Further review shows that they made mention of kythera's product aga for R&D. So at that alone i dont feel that bim is dead in the water. Further speculation and again i could completely out of my element here as i have linited knowledge on patents, but wasnt part of the issue with bim patent rights? Whereas, other companies would be capable of producing it? If thats the case maybe they intend to make a dual topical of seti + bim and patent it together as their acquisition of kythera grants them exclusive rights to anti pgd2. Of course they would still need to prove efficacy of seti which for us would delay development of a product. However, im sure i read on this thread before a quote from cots saying a topical of pgd2 blocker would be ideal and that in conjunction with bim would be the "foot off the brake and flooring the gas." Again guys this is all speculation and quite optimistic as we are all in the same boat here. Personally i have my faith in samumed as all these stem cell and regeneration studies point to the wnt pathway. Cheers fellas hopefully good news is on the horizon! Hang in there!

----------


## burtandernie

Is BIM going to provide some protective effect against androgens too? I thought someone mentioned it might just be needed a few times a week instead of everyday. I guess that includes the huge assumption that it works or ever comes out.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> This is my speculation and yes it is a speculation so take it as you'd like. 2014 tell me your opinion. *I find it hard to believe it is dead when they have bim for hair loss listed as one of there products in late stage development for aesthetics in their presentation*. Further review shows that they made mention of kythera's product aga for R&D. So at that alone i dont feel that bim is dead in the water. Further speculation and again i could completely out of my element here as i have linited knowledge on patents, but wasnt part of the issue with bim patent rights? Whereas, other companies would be capable of producing it? If thats the case maybe they intend to make a dual topical of seti + bim and patent it together as their acquisition of kythera grants them exclusive rights to anti pgd2. Of course they would still need to prove efficacy of seti which for us would delay development of a product. However, im sure i read on this thread before a quote from cots saying a topical of pgd2 blocker would be ideal and that in conjunction with bim would be the "foot off the brake and flooring the gas." Again guys this is all speculation and quite optimistic as we are all in the same boat here. Personally i have my faith in samumed as all these stem cell and regeneration studies point to the wnt pathway. Cheers fellas hopefully good news is on the horizon! Hang in there!


 Where did you see that? 

Anyway, I do agree with you on most points. Glad some ppl here are informed.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Is BIM going to provide some protective effect against androgens too? I thought someone mentioned it might just be needed a few times a week instead of everyday. I guess that includes the huge assumption that it works or ever comes out.


 Yes. Because of the increased paracrine (cell-to-cell) signaling, as well as increased production of melanocytes and keratinocytes.

----------


## Tomtom21

Go to allergans website, find the presentations page and click to view the pdf of the Q2 conference call. Its on page 23 of the presentation. The thing with kythera is page 11

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Go to allergans website, find the presentations page and click to view the pdf of the Q2 conference call. Its on page 23 of the presentation. The thing with kythera is page 11


 lol could've just sent me a link!  :Smile:  Thanks dude!

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

*BIM IS ALIVE*.

Otherwise they would've never mentioned it in their presentation. That is a great indication that they are moving forward with it. 

Anyone who's interested - click on the Q2 2015 Earnings Presentation Page 23 -

http://ir.allergan.com/phoenix.zhtml...-presentations

----------


## maver1ck

> *BIM IS ALIVE*.
> 
> Otherwise they would've never mentioned it in their presentation. That is a great indication that they are moving forward with it. 
> 
> Anyone who's interested - click on the Q2 2015 Earnings Presentation Page 23 -
> 
> http://ir.allergan.com/phoenix.zhtml...-presentations

----------


## burtandernie

How do they determine if this is going to be OTC or by prescription only? Maybe wishing too much  but it would be nice to see something on a shelf by rogain where I can make the decision verses some doctor who most likely doesnt keep up on or know much about hair loss. I dont blame them hair loss is a pretty minor thing compared to the stuff they routinely deal with. 
Having to pay to see the doctor for something you know want before you even go and having to convince them is pretty annoying. If they say no you have to change primary care doctor, and go try again. Pretty silly process honestly since most docs are barely qualified to even make that call

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> How do they determine if this is going to be OTC or by prescription only? Maybe wishing too much  but it would be nice to see something on a shelf by rogain where I can make the decision verses some doctor who most likely doesnt keep up on or know much about hair loss. I dont blame them hair loss is a pretty minor thing compared to the stuff they routinely deal with. 
> Having to pay to see the doctor for something you know want before you even go and having to convince them is pretty annoying. If they say no you have to change primary care doctor, and go try again. Pretty silly process honestly since most docs are barely qualified to even make that call


 I hope it's OTC, I mean, it makes more sense to do it that way. If you get a prescription, it limits the number of bottles you can buy. Also, if it's OTC, it's more accessible to more people, and you can buy as many bottles as you want. They def make more money going OTC

----------


## rdawg

> *BIM IS ALIVE*.
> 
> Otherwise they would've never mentioned it in their presentation. That is a great indication that they are moving forward with it. 
> 
> Anyone who's interested - click on the Q2 2015 Earnings Presentation Page 23 -
> 
> http://ir.allergan.com/phoenix.zhtml...-presentations


 Yup definitely still have it on their pipeline it seems!

Just gotta wonder whats going on there behind the scenes.

too many positives about this product not to move forward to phase III for hairloss, it's gone to Phase III/approval on two other applications already (eyelash growth and glaucoma)!

----------


## champpy

I dont see how showing thats its in the mid to late stage development category means that they are moving forward. We know that it finished phase 2. Thats past midway. Isnt that all that page was showing, products that are at least in mid stage development? Idk, i dont see that as much to get excited about

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I dont see how showing thats its in the mid to late stage development category means that they are moving forward. We know that it finished phase 2. Thats past midway. Isnt that all that page was showing, products that are at least in mid stage development? Idk, i dont see that as much to get excited about


 Look, I don't mind explaining things to help people out, but c'mon and help me out here. 

It has been debated for the better part of a year whether or not this drug has succeeded in phase 2b. Months and months later, it is mentioned alongside with Kybella (which has launched), and two acne drugs in late phase 3 studies. It is *highlighted* in the late stage aesthetic drugs. If you notice, there are *27* drugs being developed for aesthetics, but they chose deliberately to mention bimatoprost for hair growth.

*If they weren't continuing with the program or planning to release it, then there would be no mention at all*. Instead, it is there, right next to a drug that has already launched, and two drugs that have already been engaged in phase 3 studies.

*They've also recently stated publicly that they've chosen to move forward with 70 projects, and if you notice, the total number of programs there is 70!*

I've posted before about seti and bim, and this proves my ideas to be correct on the matter. They are going to be used together to tackle hair loss, and they will corner the market by doing so. One stops hair loss, the other regrows, and the result should be a complete reversal of hair loss if in the early to mid stages. It also means they are close to a release for bim.

----------


## JayM

Great posting 2014. It is appreciated. Wish they would hurry up as I type blowing a hair off my screen aha.

----------


## champpy

No i get ya 2014already, i really do. I think we need to just ease up just a bit on the assuming thats whats going to happen. Its common knowledge that there was a phase 2. Anyone who was planning on competing with allergen based on a bim treatment could have already done so, based off the fact allergens taken it to a phase 2. Hell i dont see why other companies havent already tired this. Its been well known for awhile that bim may help w hairloss, but noones ever shown success w a trial. At least not that weve seen. Maybe other companies are being cheap and waiting for allergen to pay for all the testing, then they will jump on the bandwagon after its been proven to work. I just dont see why no other company has tested out a higher percentage on even one person. If they did, and it worked, you can bet they would be developing this also. It would be a race to see who could do it first.
I think its more of a possibility that setit is the real winner, and bim is just a boost to their propsed treatment by offering a little more regrowth than minox.

Man Im just tired of this game. Getting hopes up over and over and getting pooped on each time is crushing. Dude i hope your right. Just think someone somewhere wouldve shown results by now

----------


## burtandernie

In terms of preventing hair loss I wonder how good this will work. I guess we need to see some results to know that though. I feel like this is gonna be pricey so it might still be better to go propecia first instead of this if it does come out. Propecia gonna be much more cost effective in terms of keeping hair. This probably more like a rogain in terms of growing new hair.
So timeline for this stuff if it worked well still has to start and get through a phase 3 so atleast 1 year or more away? I thought someone said it might come out this year

----------


## champpy

Yes because they were assuming that it was secretly being phase 3 tested now, which would allow it to be released at yrs end.  But that is speculation. There is no way of knowing if any further tests have been done since the end of phase 2. They wont divulge jack crap about this product

----------


## rdawg

> In terms of preventing hair loss I wonder how good this will work. I guess we need to see some results to know that though. I feel like this is gonna be pricey so it might still be better to go propecia first instead of this if it does come out. Propecia gonna be much more cost effective in terms of keeping hair. This probably more like a rogain in terms of growing new hair.
> So timeline for this stuff if it worked well still has to start and get through a phase 3 so atleast 1 year or more away? I thought someone said it might come out this year


 They could have already started Phase III which means years end they could release it.

if they plan on starting it beginning of next year probably mid-2016. Latest would be end of 2016, if it's not cancelled.

This is the closest product to release, followed by CB, SETI and SM.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> They could have already started Phase III which means years end they could release it.
> 
> if they plan on starting it beginning of next year probably mid-2016. Latest would be end of 2016, if it's not cancelled.
> 
> This is the closest product to release, followed by CB, SETI and SM.


 They have an R&D key pipeline overview on Nov. 4th. at Allergan's former headquarters in Irvine, CA. If they're in phase 3 right now, that will be the day they make the announcement. 

I think this makes sense given that they have a few drugs in phase 3, which they acquired from the old Allergan, and they will have originated from Irvine. Bim could definitely be one of those drugs. 

To quote Brent Saunders, CEO of Allergan: "It is our most important R&D center, it's our most important actual campus. The big difference is it's not a headquarters anymore. It's a center of excellence, but it's not a headquarters." 

There will also be a tour, apparently. So, I think it's fair to say there will be some drug launching announcements at the old Allergan HQ, highlighting the excellent products that came from their R&D which was acquired in Jan.-Feb of this year. Bit of a PR thing, but if I had to guess given the proper timelines, and if they had continued, this would definitely be the day. 

3 more months, and we'll know the deal.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

BTW Everything I've read about the new Allergan's business model, is that they seek to acquire companies or drugs in late stage development, or drugs that have been launched. They do not want to do the R&D themselves because it's very costly, and often doesn't lead to anything.

So, it's speculative, but they'll probably want to show off the success of new drugs by acquisitions they've made. It will show they are successful in their business model.

----------


## barfacan

Ah, the pleasures of confirmation bias.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Ah, the pleasures of confirmation bias.


 I don't give a crap what you think  :Smile: 

I've been right all along about this drug. That goes for setipiprant, too. 

Enjoy attempting to drop turds on what I say, because you've missed every time.

----------


## Hemo

> I don't give a crap what you think 
> 
> I've been right all along about this drug. That goes for setipiprant, too. 
> 
> Enjoy attempting to drop turds on what I say, because you've missed every time.


 LOL at "I've been right all along about this drug."  Nothing you've said has been confirmed/denied.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> LOL at "I've been right all along about this drug."  Nothing you've said has been confirmed/denied.


 On the contrary, I've said that they've continued the program and it's right there in the presentation pdf. That means the drug works.

----------


## Hemo

> On the contrary, I've said that they've continued the program and it's right there in the presentation pdf. That means the drug works.


 So have others (and I never debated whether or not it was still alive).  I'm talking about all of your other theories about what's going on behind the scenes.

----------


## breakbot

2014 stop all these crap about bimatoprost. They didn't inform about the current status of bimatoprost as they did with the other drugs.
It's just a mention which means nothing...
I hope you are right but i don't think so.
In my opinion it's over. You should exchange your love to bimatoprost for a woman. :Wink: 
I'm tired reading your bs about this failed project.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> So have others (and I never debated whether or not it was still alive).  I'm talking about all of your other theories about what's going on behind the scenes.


 I don't care what's going on behind the scenes as long as it's continuing development. Plenty of people have said it was dead, I have not, and that's the only thing I'm talking about. It's also the only thing I care about, and the only thing I was referring to.

----------


## barfacan

Your unbridled hope feels like a linkin' park song.  I tried so hard and got so faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar, but in the end it doesnt even matttter.

You're going to look silly when you're forced to change the username to 2017

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Your unbridled hope feels like a linkin' park song.  I tried so hard and got so faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar, but in the end it doesnt even matttter.
> 
> You're going to look silly when you're forced to change the username to 2017


 lol u listen to linkin park

----------


## Ziggyz123

> lol u listen to linkin park


 Gotttttttttt emmmmmmmmm

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

2014 killing it. Love it. Good to know Bim is still in the game; I knew it would be.

----------


## barfacan

He's wearing down!

----------


## JayM

> He's wearing down!


 Congratulations?

----------


## Tomtom21

2014 where did you read the key drug pipeline being discussed Nov 4th. I suppose its good and bad becauze we will find out if bim is moving to phase three but i highly doubt we will find it has already been in phase three this entire time... 
If bigentries were willing, he could re attempt to talk to someone from allergan and let us all know?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> 2014 where did you read the key drug pipeline being discussed Nov 4th. I suppose its good and bad becauze we will find out if bim is moving to phase three but i highly doubt we will find it has already been in phase three this entire time... 
> If bigentries were willing, he could re attempt to talk to someone from allergan and let us all know?


 it's on p. 27 of the pdf. 

I agree with you, it is doubtful that a launch for bim will be announced, but I still do believe it's possible. I've posted my own reasons for believing that, but I won't get into it.

It was "BiqqieSmalls," who's the investor in contact with Allergan.

BTW - Thanks A LOT, for posting about the pdf presentation. I would've never caught that if it wasn't for you.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> He's wearing down!


 lol u moron, bim is still going strong

----------


## Ziggyz123

I have no doubts in bim. Like is said, last time I saw my deem which was like two months ago, she and I got to talking about future treatments and she knew of "a drug for eyelashes that showed real results for mpb".. Bim is probably going to be paired with seti just as 2014 thinks. It fits perfectly and will most likely end the hair loss battle for most. I wouldn't really expect too much news from it until more news from seri comes along actually. But those are my thoughts and every one has different opinions. Some people even like Linkin park..

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Great post, Ziggy. 

My only question is: if this drug showed results, why in the hell would they slow down development by a year? Makes absolutely no sense. These will be paired together imo, but Seti's development is going to take longer regardless, so why do that? 

That is the only reason I believe development has continued. I've believed it's been successful all along. You all can believe what you want, but I believe the drug has still been in development. I think it's possible for an announcement or launch towards the end of the year, which is also when seti is set to start trials.

----------


## champpy

I think bims development will stay on hold until development of seti catches up. that way they can both be released together.
If seti proves to be effective then bim will be launched as an add on growth stimulant. I don't think they're progressing further now because it's not effective enough by itself. 
that's why I think they're hush hush on this project. I don't think it's good enough to stand on its own. it's not dead but it's not the miracle we think it may be
This is just my guess though

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I think bims development will stay on hold until development of seti catches up. that way they can both be released together.
> If seti proves to be effective then bim will be launched as an add on growth stimulant. I don't think they're progressing further now because it's not effective enough by itself. 
> that's why I think they're hush hush on this project. I don't think it's good enough to stand on its own. it's not dead but it's not the miracle we think it may be
> This is just my guess though


 I thought that was maybe possible, but it would make no sense. They projected that bim alone would be a $1Billion a year drug. Holding off means less money. Seti's gonna take a few years regardless, so they're going to forego earning billions of dollars just so they can be released at the same time? No.

Plus having bim as an introductory product to the hair loss market, Allergan can build some more awareness of their involvement in the industry. When Seti comes out, people will be more aware of their brand, as opposed to a new hair loss treatment just popping up out of the blue.

----------


## champpy

I hope youre right on that 2014, cause there are plenty of us that would use it even if the results were less than stellar. But what im afraid of, and why i think they might hold it back, is because if its not super effective and just a little better than minox, it may give bim a bad name and turn the average consumer off from using it.

Average joe will pay 40 dollars for minor growth via minox, but would he pay $100 a month for bim if its only slightly better??? Theres no doubt bim will cost much more. I think average joe would pass on high priced bim and opt for minox given growth rate may be comparable. 

Now if the bim/seti combo gives way way more growth, then i see them being able to cash in on all groups. And having bim introduced at a time where seti is doing all the heavy lifting, then right out the gate it would appear the seti/bim combo is worth every penny and neither product would suffer from negative word of mouth since they are more powerful together than they are alone

Again though i would love to be an early adopter of a bim product( just for hope alone) and i really want it to be powerful enough to work by itself. Its just this game they are playing makes me wonder and worry

----------


## dus

> I hope youre right on that 2014, cause there are plenty of us that would use it even if the results were less than stellar. But what im afraid of, and why i think they might hold it back, is because if its not super effective and just a little better than minox, it may give bim a bad name and turn the average consumer off from using it.
> 
> Average joe will pay 40 dollars for minor growth via minox, but would he pay $100 a month for bim if its only slightly better??? Theres no doubt bim will cost much more. I think average joe would pass on high priced bim and opt for minox given growth rate may be comparable. 
> 
> Now if the bim/seti combo gives way way more growth, then i see them being able to cash in on all groups. And having bim introduced at a time where seti is doing all the heavy lifting, then right out the gate it would appear the seti/bim combo is worth every penny and neither product would suffer from negative word of mouth since they are more powerful together than they are alone
> 
> Again though i would love to be an early adopter of a bim product( just for hope alone) and i really want it to be powerful enough to work by itself. Its just this game they are playing makes me wonder and worry


 The producers of BIM aren't stupid. They know competition is going to heat up in the next 3 - 5 years (lol). If they have a product they will release it and make money while the going is good.

----------


## burtandernie

Since I want to just maintain im probably better off trying propecia since I have a feeling BIM is gonna cost a fortune when it comes out like any new MPB treatment. I hope everyone is saving a lot of money because they gotta make back those huge FDA expenses somehow. Atleast propecia is generic so the prices are reasonable now.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Since I want to just maintain im probably better off trying propecia since I have a feeling BIM is gonna cost a fortune when it comes out like any new MPB treatment. I hope everyone is saving a lot of money because they gotta make back those huge FDA expenses somehow. Atleast propecia is generic so the prices are reasonable now.


 You could probably get excellent results microdosing fin a few times a wk, and then use bim on the in-between days. I think that would be very cost-effective and provide great results, assuming bim is much noticeably superior to minox.

----------


## Gremlin142

> Look, I don't mind explaining things to help people out, but c'mon and help me out here. 
> 
> It has been debated for the better part of a year whether or not this drug has succeeded in phase 2b. Months and months later, it is mentioned alongside with Kybella (which has launched), and two acne drugs in late phase 3 studies. It is *highlighted* in the late stage aesthetic drugs. If you notice, there are *27* drugs being developed for aesthetics, but they chose deliberately to mention bimatoprost for hair growth.
> 
> *If they weren't continuing with the program or planning to release it, then there would be no mention at all*. Instead, it is there, right next to a drug that has already launched, and two drugs that have already been engaged in phase 3 studies.
> 
> *They've also recently stated publicly that they've chosen to move forward with 70 projects, and if you notice, the total number of programs there is 70!*
> 
> I've posted before about seti and bim, and this proves my ideas to be correct on the matter. They are going to be used together to tackle hair loss, and they will corner the market by doing so. One stops hair loss, the other regrows, and the result should be a complete reversal of hair loss if in the early to mid stages. It also means they are close to a release for bim.


 This is spot on! Makes complete sense. Why mention bimatoprost for hair growth as one of the 27 programs moving forward. That does not make sense to me unless it was moving forward.  My only question, where was it said that they were moving forward with 70 programs? Please let me know. Thanks for the input!

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> This is spot on! Makes complete sense. Why mention bimatoprost for hair growth as one of the 27 programs moving forward. That does not make sense to me unless it was moving forward.  My only question, where was it said that they were moving forward with 70 programs? Please let me know. Thanks for the input!


 http://finance.yahoo.com/news/actavi...223600265.html

----------


## Hemo

> I thought that was maybe possible, but it would make no sense. They projected that bim alone would be a $1Billion a year drug. Holding off means less money. Seti's gonna take a few years regardless, so they're going to forego earning billions of dollars just so they can be released at the same time? No.
> 
> Plus having bim as an introductory product to the hair loss market, Allergan can build some more awareness of their involvement in the industry. When Seti comes out, people will be more aware of their brand, as opposed to a new hair loss treatment just popping up out of the blue.


 I swear I'm not trying to be an ass, but they could hold off because that's a way to "protect" bim.  If they market the pair of treatments as the most effective hair loss remedy, more people are going to buy both seti and bim together rather than going to a competitor for bim (and there may be a way to protect bim this way).
You're also assuming bim is ready to go into production - if they haven't started phase 3 as you suggest, they still might be messing with it somewhat, which would obviously delay phase 3 and its subsequent release.

----------


## hellouser

Pretty much everything everyone has posted in the last few pages is nothing more than just speculation. Bim results not even released still is an insult to everyone and without that vital information, all you guys are giving BIM high praise.

Terrible logic.

----------


## champpy

But the thing we are not taking into account, we know bim works on eyelashes to make them fuller and longer. But eyelashes are not going through MPB. 

Even if it works to stimulate growth whatever is causing our hair to fall out may negate the effects of bim. If this is true they do need both treatments; one to retain hair and the other to spur growth.

That's why im afraid bim wont be released until Seti is ready to go. I don't think bim alone will keep hair if MPB is trying to kill it off. Once they are sure seti works, then I believe we will see them move to phase 3. Although by that time hopefully the 21st Century Cures act will be up and running so maybe phase 3 will be eliminated.

I hope and pray 2014already is right, but I think this is the more logical answer as to whats going on

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I swear I'm not trying to be an ass, but they could hold off because that's a way to "protect" bim.  If they market the pair of treatments as the most effective hair loss remedy, more people are going to buy both seti and bim together rather than going to a competitor for bim (and there may be a way to protect bim this way).
> You're also assuming bim is ready to go into production - if they haven't started phase 3 as you suggest, they still might be messing with it somewhat, which would obviously delay phase 3 and its subsequent release.


 No, I get you, Hemo. You definitely provide some thought-provoking arguments, and I appreciate them.

To respond to your idea - They have a patent for bim at the correct concentration of use for hair loss. It is protected by law. Yes, other companies can produce bimatoprost, but once Allergan has a licensed, official product, not only would it be illegal, but it would be like some knock-off generic cola trying to rip-off classic coke. 

My point about not releasing phase 2b results has mostly to do with the idea that once word is out, labs like kane or whoever (chinese knock-off companies) could buy the powder, make the right concentration, and sell it to desperate hair-loss sufferers. It would put people at risk of using an unregulated product, as well as taking from potential profits that Allergan would make from their product. Brand loyalty is very important, and you want the best out there. Likely any knock-off won't be as good, because Allergan's is a special formulation that includes a penetration enhancer to the scalp (I read that in the patent). I sincerely doubt that a reputable company would risk doing something illegal as violating a patent to the extent of copying the formula, and then selling it themselves. There would be lawsuits out the wazoo. 

Also, I sincerely doubt that they are still messing with it, because the issue prior to phase 2b was concentration. From what I understand, they fixed that, and added a penetration enhancer.

----------


## dus

> But the thing we are not taking into account, we know bim works on eyelashes to make them fuller and longer. But eyelashes are not going through MPB. 
> 
> Even if it works to stimulate growth whatever is causing our hair to fall out may negate the effects of bim. If this is true they do need both treatments; one to retain hair and the other to spur growth.
> 
> That's why im afraid bim wont be released until Seti is ready to go. I don't think bim alone will keep hair if MPB is trying to kill it off. Once they are sure seti works, then I believe we will see them move to phase 3. Although by that time hopefully the 21st Century Cures act will be up and running so maybe phase 3 will be eliminated.
> 
> I hope and pray 2014already is right, but I think this is the more logical answer as to whats going on


 This doesn't even make any sense. You are basically making the argument that there is no market for Minox at this point in time. Of course everybody knows there IS a huge market for Minox. If BIM is only slightly better most of us would be switching... plus you don't even take into account that a lot of guys get sides from Minox (me included) but who are just fine on Fin. There is a market. End of discussion. If it works it will be released as soon as possible.

----------


## Swooping

> Your unbridled hope feels like a linkin' park song.  I tried so hard and got so faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar, but in the end it doesnt even matttter.
> 
> You're going to look silly when you're forced to change the username to 2017


 QFT lol. Reality will hit hard anyway. What a pity.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> QFT lol. Reality will hit hard anyway. What a pity.


 So, you're another Linkin Park Fan? lol

Anyway "quoted for truth," you said the drug failed the program was over. It's quite the opposite, actually.

----------


## Swooping

> So, you're another Linkin Park Fan? lol
> 
> Anyway "quoted for truth," you said the drug failed the program was over. It's quite the opposite, actually.


 Nope. I said they would never initiate a phase 3 trial. The PDF you posted proves nothing and leaves to much for interpretation. Come back to me when you have a confirmation of a phase 3 initiation. I obviously do hope you'll be right, but I don't see it happening.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Look, I don't mind explaining things to help people out, but c'mon and help me out here. 

It has been debated for the better part of a year whether or not this drug has succeeded in phase 2b. Months and months later, it is mentioned alongside with Kybella (which has launched), and two acne drugs in late phase 3 studies. It is highlighted in the late stage aesthetic drugs. If you notice, there are *27* drugs being developed for aesthetics, but they chose deliberately to mention bimatoprost for hair growth.

*If they weren't continuing with the program or planning to release it, then there would be no mention at all*. Instead, it is there, right next to a drug that has already launched, and two drugs that have already been engaged in phase 3 studies.

*They've also recently stated publicly that they've chosen to move forward with 70 projects, and if you notice, the total number of programs there is 70!*

I've posted before about seti and bim, and this proves my ideas to be correct on the matter. They are going to be used together to tackle hair loss, and they will corner the market by doing so. One stops hair loss, the other regrows, and the result should be a complete reversal of hair loss if in the early to mid stages. It also means they are close to a release for bim.

--- That's a post I made earlier, it is proof enough. If they weren't proceeding, it wouldn't have been included in the presentation, or mentioned directly among the 27 late stage aesthetics programs. I*t also wouldn't have been mentioned among the 70 programs they've decided to move forward with* as stated by head of Branding R&D, David Nicholson.

*Being lumped together among the 70 programs they've chosen to move forward with, leaves nothing to interpretation.* 

*Sorry, Swooping, you are dead wrong.*

----------


## It's2016ComeOnAlready

> Look, I don't mind explaining things to help people out, but c'mon and help me out here. 
> 
> It has been debated for the better part of a year whether or not this drug has succeeded in phase 2b. Months and months later, it is mentioned alongside with Kybella (which has launched), and two acne drugs in late phase 3 studies. It is highlighted in the late stage aesthetic drugs. If you notice, there are *27* drugs being developed for aesthetics, but they chose deliberately to mention bimatoprost for hair growth.
> 
> *If they weren't continuing with the program or planning to release it, then there would be no mention at all*. Instead, it is there, right next to a drug that has already launched, and two drugs that have already been engaged in phase 3 studies.
> 
> *They've also recently stated publicly that they've chosen to move forward with 70 projects, and if you notice, the total number of programs there is 70!*
> 
> I've posted before about seti and bim, and this proves my ideas to be correct on the matter. They are going to be used together to tackle hair loss, and they will corner the market by doing so. One stops hair loss, the other regrows, and the result should be a complete reversal of hair loss if in the early to mid stages. It also means they are close to a release for bim.
> ...


 Hmm, I guess you're right. I can't wait for a cure any longer.

----------


## Keki

Anyway it's a good news they mentioned bim for scalp, last time was at the end of the year iirc or even before, the project it's not dead and it's acutally stupid to mention it if they didn't continue the project come on it's totally retard

----------


## dus

Yeah another account made solely for ridicule. This is one goddamn immature forum.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Yeah another account made solely for ridicule. This is one goddamn immature forum.


 Yeah, you're right. People can be really petty and small, if it's part of your behavior, society and your peers will see you as such. Nothing but an ant. 

I'm off this thing. Some people listen to crap like Linkin Park, I prefer Wyclef Jean. I'll be gone till November.

----------


## baldybald

I mean let's stop talking about this BS stuff because it is minoxidil 2 or maybe less effective.it is 2015 already !!

----------


## JayM

> I mean let's stop talking about this BS stuff because it is minoxidil 2 or maybe less effective.it is 2015 already !!


 Do you even know the mechanism of how it's supposed to work?

----------


## dus

> I mean let's stop talking about this BS stuff because it is minoxidil 2 or maybe less effective.it is 2015 already !!


 If people have been burned too many times with failed products/ depressed and don't want to hear speculation, which is logically going to happend in the Cutting Edge / Future Treatments part of the forum... I suggest not coming to these parts. If a product finally arrives you'll hear it on the news. Making fake accounts to ridicule someone is just ****ing sad.

----------


## baldybald

> If people have been burned too many times with failed products/ depressed and don't want to hear speculation, which is logically going to happend in the Cutting Edge / Future Treatments part of the forum... I suggest not coming to these parts. If a product finally arrives you'll hear it on the news. Making fake accounts to ridicule someone is just ****ing sad.


 It has different mechanism than minoxidil but gives that small improvement as minoxidil if not less.
I do want to argue with anyone but we want solution from the root not an eyelash treatment. When this thing comes out to market then remember what I said  :Wink:

----------


## JayM

> It has different mechanism than minoxidil but gives that small improvement as minoxidil if not less.
> I do want to argue with anyone but we want solution from the root not an eyelash treatment. When this thing comes out to market then remember what I said


 You have no idea what's going on. You ask for something to hit mpb at the root yet here we are talking about bim+Seti and it seems to be going over your head.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

There are some real morons lurking in these forums. 

Praise to everyone who is rational, mature, and looking to help others. Last comment until Nov.

----------


## JayM

> There are some real morons lurking in these forums. 
> 
> Praise to everyone who is rational, mature, and looking to help others. Last comment until Nov.


 If something comes up which interests you could you still post? I understand not repeating yourself but there are people who appreciate your comments and it does bring good debate with mature posters inbetween the sh*t.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> If something comes up which interests you could you still post? I understand not repeating yourself but there are people who appreciate your comments and it does bring good debate with mature posters inbetween the sh*t.


 Yea, def. If not, I'll be back in Nov.

----------


## sosa56

https://youtu.be/kI6MWZrl8v8

----------


## baldybald

> https://youtu.be/kI6MWZrl8v8


 Nice !

----------


## It's2016ComeOnAlready

> Yeah, you're right. People can be really petty and small, if it's part of your behavior, society and your peers will see you as such. Nothing but an ant. 
> 
> I'm off this thing. Some people listen to crap like Linkin Park, I prefer Wyclef Jean. I'll be gone till November.


 Oh wow really? Do you have a patent on that name?

I can do whatever I want and it shouldn't bother you.

----------


## dus

> I can do whatever I want and it shouldn't bother you.


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. . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,} 
. . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.} 
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`\

----------


## barfacan

Haha, can't believe 2014 actually ran out of the thread because of some good old fashioned ribbin'.  Sometimes you have to laugh at yourself and stop taking yourself so seriously, brother man.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Haha, can't believe 2014 actually ran out of the thread because of some good old fashioned ribbin'.  Sometimes you have to laugh at yourself and stop taking yourself so seriously, brother man.


 Wrong. I'm out because I'm going on vacation, and there's nothing to post about until the hair congress, the end of SM's phase 2 trial, and Allergan's R&D update in Nov.

I could care less about any insult or ridicule. I can dish it back, and much better than most.

----------


## Sogeking

> Wrong. I'm out because I'm going on vacation, and there's nothing to post about until the hair congress, the end of SM's phase 2 trial, and Allergan's R&D update in Nov.
> 
> I could care less about any insult or ridicule. I can dish it back, and much better than most.


  You should just ignore them.
At this point I just want them to find a cure so I don't have to put up with all the trolls on this forum who are too bitter to accept their hair loss.
P.S. You are right until November there will be nothing new. Enjoy your vacation man.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah honestly its easy to obsess over looking at the forums a lot but its not worth it. New treatment progress is measured in years so its just pointless guessing and arguing on opinions to fill all that time between actual facts. Not much point until results show up.
Right now just use what exists - propecia and so on and just forget about it. Check back in a year or two and see if anything changed. Im gonna ask my doc next time about propecia and hopefully that will buy me a few years.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Said I wouldn't post until Nov, and I won't really because there won't be much news.

Anyway, I'm posting today about Allergan's R&D key pipeline update taking place on November 4th which is in about two months. 

*I am certain that at the very least, we will have results or news about the phase 2b trial*. Since the merger, there was never any mention in any quarterly presentation (including when Actavis took over Allergan, and noted all of its pipeline products in a Nov. PDF, which excluded bimatoprost for scalp) of this drug in the pipeline or what its status was, and suddenly, it is featured among the late stage aesthetic programs a few months before a key R&D pipeline update.

I think it's also important to note that this Q3 report and pipeline update is taking place at their Irvine, CA campus, former HQ of Allergan. Bimatoprost for hair growth was one of the late-stage pipeline programs that Actavis acquired from Allergan, and originated out of their Irvine HQ. When Actavis took over Allergan, their mid-to-late stage R&D programs were pretty thin as I have read. 

I have no idea if a product would be launched. I think it's possible given that they've really kept this a secret for nearly a year, and suddenly bim for scalp pops its head (of luscious hair) out, a few months before an R&D update. Not to mention that this R&D update is taking place from where this product originated. I've said before that given that this drug is already available, and would be in high demand if successful, they would not release results until they had a product to market. By withholding results, they have the power. People losing their hair are willing to slap almost anything on their heads to get their hair growing again. Believe it, if their product works (which all signs point to yes), and they released results prematurely, their potential profits would be poached by random labs, and chinese companies, and people would be eagerly slapping unregulated chemicals on their heads. 

On one hand I am certain that we will be made aware of the results of the this drug. On the other hand, I really have no idea if they will launch a product. What I also know is that it would be pretty lame and incompetent of them to say: "well, here are the results. As you can see, they are good enough to move forward with, and we plan on bringing this drug to market. We knew this drug worked nearly a year ago, but haven't jumped on it."  

I really can't see them (or any well-funded company) not taking action on this drug nearly a year ago if it worked. We all know that if the drug worked (which looks like a definite YES because they are moving forward with it) they'd try and push it to market ASAP. This is what any company with an effective drug for hair loss would do. 

...And for anyone saying a phase 3 would never be initiated, or that it doesn't work - please use logic. They've named 70 mid-to -late stage drugs they are moving forward with. Bimatoprost for scalp is clearly marked as one of those drugs. "Moving forward" means continuing development, and after phase 2b comes phase 3. This is a company which states they do not like doing most of the R&D themselves because it is costly, and often doesn't produce results, therefore it is logical that if the drug failed in phase 2b, it would have been scrapped. 

Hold tight everyone, I'm certain November will be very positive.

----------


## BoSox

What are the expectations of this? Cure or just minox on roids?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> What are the expectations of this? Cure or just minox on roids?


 Minox on roids that can be used anywhere on the scalp - hairline, over the ears, crown etc.

----------


## breakbot

> Said I wouldn't post until Nov, and I won't really because there won't be much news.
> 
> Anyway, I'm posting today about Allergan's R&D key pipeline update taking place on November 4th which is in about two months. 
> 
> *I am certain that at the very least, we will have results or news about the phase 2b trial*. Since the merger, there was never any mention in any quarterly presentation (including when Actavis took over Allergan, and noted all of its pipeline products in a Nov. PDF, which excluded bimatoprost for scalp) of this drug in the pipeline or what its status was, and suddenly, it is featured among the late stage aesthetic programs a few months before a key R&D pipeline update.
> 
> I think it's also important to note that this Q3 report and pipeline update is taking place at their Irvine, CA campus, former HQ of Allergan. Bimatoprost for hair growth was one of the late-stage pipeline programs that Actavis acquired from Allergan, and originated out of their Irvine HQ. When Actavis took over Allergan, their mid-to-late stage R&D programs were pretty thin as I have read. 
> 
> I have no idea if a product would be launched. I think it's possible given that they've really kept this a secret for nearly a year, and suddenly bim for scalp pops its head (of luscious hair) out, a few months before an R&D update. Not to mention that this R&D update is taking place from where this product originated. I've said before that given that this drug is already available, and would be in high demand if successful, they would not release results until they had a product to market. By withholding results, they have the power. People losing their hair are willing to slap almost anything on their heads to get their hair growing again. Believe it, if their product works (which all signs point to yes), and they released results prematurely, their potential profits would be poached by random labs, and chinese companies, and people would be eagerly slapping unregulated chemicals on their heads. 
> ...


  Omg! You destroyed allergan's plan!! You revealed them.
Now everybody will buy bimatoprost!
And of course allergan will publish their meaningless secret results.

----------


## TooMuchHairWontKillYou

Sorry if it was asked but... If high % bim works on scalp why Chinese companies don't produce it?

I have no faith in bim  :Frown: (

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Sorry if it was asked but... If high % bim works on scalp why Chinese companies don't produce it?


 Fair question - because the results have not been released yet. Nobody, besides Allergan knows if it works. 

The main deterrent for a Chinese lab or company is cost. Bimatoprost powder is very expensive ($800-900 per gram).They'd have to spend the time and money to make it without actually knowing it works, or the demand, because people like you and me don't know if it works better than minox. There aren't any actual numbers yet to go by. 

If they were to release results prematurely, they'd be creating a demand that only a lab or company not regulated by the FDA could get around.

----------


## rdawg

> Sorry if it was asked but... If high % bim works on scalp why Chinese companies don't produce it?
> 
> I have no faith in bim (


 incredibly high cost, low demand(noone but a few rich forumers would be willing to get it) and the fact that it hasnt released results.

On a side note, interesting comments 2014, definitely still have faith in bim, not sure why anyone would upset with a minox on Roids, if it's good enough that you get some regrowth and it maintains+ you can drop fin/DUT it's a damn good upgrade to the current regime.

----------


## Hairismylife

Applying Pge2 directly is the same

----------


## Dimoxynil

> Sorry if it was asked but... If high % bim works on scalp why Chinese companies don't produce it?
> 
> I have no faith in bim (


 Another angle on this for me is that these forums are mainly used by people from western countries. If the Chinese were developing something of their own it would take ages for the information to get across to us. 

Communication is everything

----------


## BoSox

> On a side note, interesting comments 2014, definitely still have faith in bim, not sure why anyone would upset with a minox on Roids, if it's good enough that you get some regrowth and it maintains+ you can drop fin/DUT it's a damn good upgrade to the current regime.


 Because it's almost 2016, and we should want/demand something better than mediocre.

----------


## rdawg

> Because it's almost 2016, and we should want/demand something better than mediocre.


  And there are many companies working on the true cure, but it is a bit farther away than these 'mediocre' products that still are effective.

if something is going to give me 30% regrowth+maintenance i'll definitely be lining up to buy, it doesn't fix everything, but i'd be happy enough with it and so would many others.

a true cure(NW7-NW0) is a much deeper problem, that judging by theories could be 5+ years away, so I dont understand why anyone would get mad if something comes out that isn't a complete cure.

----------


## hellouser

> And there are many companies working on the true cure, but it is a bit farther away than these 'mediocre' products that still are effective.
> 
> if something is going to give me 30% regrowth+maintenance i'll definitely be lining up to buy, it doesn't fix everything, but i'd be happy enough with it and so would many others.
> 
> a true cure(NW7-NW0) is a much deeper problem, that judging by theories could be 5+ years away, so I dont understand why anyone would get mad if something comes out that isn't a complete cure.


 It was 5+ years 15 years ago. Aren't any of you tired of hearing this 5 year promise from doctors?

----------


## barfacan

I really would like to see just how much of an effect lobbying has on the progression of hair loss treatments..

----------


## Occulus

> And there are many companies working on the true cure, but it is a bit farther away than these 'mediocre' products that still are effective.
> 
> if something is going to give me 30% regrowth+maintenance i'll definitely be lining up to buy, it doesn't fix everything, but i'd be happy enough with it and so would many others.


 A protocol that resulted in 30% regrowth would be the biggest development since finasteride.  It would be the biggest development of this generation.  I would be ecstatic for something that resulted in a reliable 15% or even 10% regrowth, as there is nothing on the market that can produce that outcome.  10% regrowth would mean about 10,000 new hairs - something even a mega transplant session can't do.

----------


## Keeper

> I really would like to see just how much of an effect lobbying has on the progression of hair loss treatments..


 I m sure Lobbying has a huge effect in this whole thing. Maybe they already have a cure, but its better for them to sell all crapy products.....makes more money

----------


## BiqqieSmalls

> A protocol that resulted in 30% regrowth would be the biggest development since finasteride.  It would be the biggest development of this generation.  I would be ecstatic for something that resulted in a reliable 15% or even 10% regrowth, as there is nothing on the market that can produce that outcome.  10% regrowth would mean about 10,000 new hairs - something even a mega transplant session can't do.


 What's minoxidil's regrowth percentage?

----------


## allTheGoodNamesAreTaken

> A protocol that resulted in 30% regrowth would be the biggest development since finasteride.  It would be the biggest development of this generation.  I would be ecstatic for something that resulted in a reliable 15% or even 10% regrowth, as there is nothing on the market that can produce that outcome.  10% regrowth would mean about 10,000 new hairs - something even a mega transplant session can't do.


 Don't those percentage of regrowth statements mean the percentage of what's left up there, rather than the percentage of hairs a person can possibly have on their head?

----------


## Occulus

> Don't those percentage of regrowth statements mean the percentage of what's left up there, rather than the percentage of hairs a person can possibly have on their head?


 I assumed it meant 10% of a healthy head of hair.  Otherwise, if you're a NW7, 10% of zero would be zero regrowth.

----------


## Trouse5858

> I m sure Lobbying has a huge effect in this whole thing. Maybe they already have a cure, but its better for them to sell all crapy products.....makes more money


 I posted a comment similar to this on another thread that ended up getting buried but this conspiracy theory makes NO sense to me.  I looked up how many men and women suffer from hair loss in the U.S and it exceeds 55 million total. Only a small fraction of this number (something like 1 million) actually seek treatment options for hairloss because they are so outdated and ineffective.  

Just assume you have a government-funded or even independent research facility that came up with a "cure" AKA could bring a NW 7 to a NW 1.  It's extremely hard to predict the cost of something so revolutionary, but just say for the hell of it, a one time treatment would cost $ 10 thousand.  Then assume maybe there's a tier 2 option for working class people who could not afford that and it isn't quite as effective, but it also costs half as much.  How many people would spring for this cure?  I think a very conservative 70 percent of all employed people.  Again, these numbers are all rough averages and guesstimations but it does give you an idea of how filthy f*cking rich you could become with a hairloss cure.  .7(55,000,000) X $7,500 = over $280 BILLION dollars.  lol....I haven't seen their financial statements but I don't think Fin is doing quite that well..

----------


## Trouse5858

> I m sure Lobbying has a huge effect in this whole thing. Maybe they already have a cure, but its better for them to sell all crapy products.....makes more money


 I posted a comment similar to this on another thread that ended up getting buried but this conspiracy theory makes NO sense to me.  I looked up how many men and women suffer from hair loss in the U.S and it exceeds 55 million total. Only a small fraction of this number (something like 1 million) actually seek treatment options for hairloss because they are so outdated and ineffective.  

Just assume you have a government-funded or even independent research facility that came up with a "cure" AKA could bring a NW 7 to a NW 1.  It's extremely hard to predict the cost of something so revolutionary, but just say for the hell of it, a one time treatment would cost $ 10 thousand.  Then assume maybe there's a tier 2 option for working class people who could not afford that and it isn't quite as effective, but it also costs half as much.  How many people would spring for this cure?  I think a very conservative 70 percent of all employed people.  Again, these numbers are all rough averages and guesstimations but it does give you an idea of how filthy f*cking rich you could become with a hairloss cure.  .7(55,000,000) X $7,500 = over $280 BILLION dollars.  lol....I haven't seen their financial statements but I don't think Fin is doing quite that well..

----------


## Occulus

> What's minoxidil's regrowth percentage?


 I don't know, but anecdotal evidence suggests zero, and only a marginal maintenance effect.

----------


## barfacan

Hair transplants are *BIG* Business; Many people get 2,3 or more procedures throughout their lifetimes which means big $$$ for these transplant surgeons upper class opulent lifestyles.  You don't think if somebody came out with an effective treatment that they'd do everything in their power to squash it?  This is resistance to innovation 101  -- rich powerful groups stand to lose alot should something better than their product/service come along.

If such treatments become available to the mainstream, then thousands of these surgeons will be put out of business.  Remember, this is a smart segment of the population, they'll be able to organize and do everything they can to delay the inevitable...Doesn't mean that they'll succeed (I personally don't think they will be successful, thanks to the information age, but i do think that lobbying/buying out the competition has played a part in the delays of finding more effective treatments to date).  

It's just the way things work.

----------


## burtandernie

I dont really agree that hair transplant doctors for example could stop some new treatment or cure from coming out. The amount of money a new treatment will bring in dwarfs any amount say hair transplant docs could put together while still maintaining their business. There are real world examples of near cures or preventative treatments that have been released without being shut down by whoever stands to profit off that. The reason there is no cure though is just its too complicated with too many unknown pieces and relationships which medicine is horrible at figuring out.

----------


## allTheGoodNamesAreTaken

> Hair transplants are *BIG* Business; Many people get 2,3 or more procedures throughout their lifetimes which means big $$$ for these transplant surgeons upper class opulent lifestyles.  You don't think if somebody came out with an effective treatment that they'd do everything in their power to squash it?  This is resistance to innovation 101  -- rich powerful groups stand to lose alot should something better than their product/service come along.
> 
> If such treatments become available to the mainstream, then thousands of these surgeons will be put out of business.  Remember, this is a smart segment of the population, they'll be able to organize and do everything they can to delay the inevitable...Doesn't mean that they'll succeed (I personally don't think they will be successful, thanks to the information age, but i do think that lobbying/buying out the competition has played a part in the delays of finding more effective treatments to date).  
> 
> It's just the way things work.


 I can't imagine how they could do anything to get in the way of the cell-based treatments and the drugs in trials now won't be some magical 100% reversal anyway. If something was very effective at stopping further progression I'd be much more open to the idea of a hair transplant. Continued hairloss and the prospect of an unknown number of operations is probably one of the top reasons people are hesitant to get one. I reckon knocking out that problem would probably get HT doctors more customers if anything.

----------


## Trouse5858

The hair transplant industry grosses around $1.8 billion annually. That's certainly big business, but I have a hard time connecting the dots between hair transplant surgeons trying to stay in business and those same people having enough influence to actually thwart a treatment that would be tens of dozens of times more fruitful financially. The way I understand it, the bottom line is what moves the needle for lobbyists in say, Washington DC and the Big pharma world. The thought of hair transplant surgeons unionizing and being anything but an ant to a steel toed boot seems almost like a conspiracy theory to me. But then again, I really don't know.

----------


## Hubris

Can we not come together to find a way to make this drug available to us all, in the same way that RU is now available via anageninc?

----------


## lacazette

Just put this here
R-Tech Ueno who is a japanese pharma and has his research center in KOBE center (like sisheido and regience) have a product in their pipeline for alopecia that seems to be like bimatoprost ( the company is specialised in ophtalmology and dermatology) 

(RK-023) Niboprostlan , that is in phase 2B

http://rtechueno.com/en/company/busi...ness.html#rd09 (scroll down for the pipeline)

----------


## Sogeking

> Just put this here
> R-Tech Ueno who is a japanese pharma and has his research center in KOBE center (like sisheido and regience) have a product in their pipeline for alopecia that seems to be like bimatoprost ( the company is specialised in ophtalmology and dermatology) 
> 
> (RK-023) Niboprostlan , that is in phase 2B
> 
> http://rtechueno.com/en/company/busi...ness.html#rd09 (scroll down for the pipeline)


 Good find. 
There are no further details from their page except that it is a topical solution and that as of 8th June they are searching to license it to some partners willing to market their topical. We have no idea how effective this is.
What makes you say that it is a bimatoprost like drug?
In their details section they describe 2 sites of action for drugs. One is the DHT part the other is hair matrix through growth factors (Like FGF7 and IGF-1 - yeah I know go figure) so their topical might consist of some growth factors. And whenever I hear growth factors I need to see pictures or trial results.

----------


## lacazette

Hey soge, i saw on others website they talk also about eyelashes that's why

"RK-023 is the development code given to the new drug that is being currently tested in Japan for treating hair loss and hypotrichosis of the eyelashes in two separate clinical trials, both in the Phase II. Very little information is available about this new molecule apart from its definition as being a novel physiologically active fatty acid derivative."

http://www.geneticbaldness.com/yet-a...hair-loss.html

phase 2a was completed in last 2011, and their phase 2B was a comparaison trial with minox. I think if they search to license it, the phase 2B is almost completed now and maybe phase 3 can be skipped as it is a non prescription drug apparently

----------


## Sogeking

> Hey soge, i saw on others website they talk also about eyelashes that's why
> 
> "RK-023 is the development code given to the new drug that is being currently tested in Japan for treating hair loss and hypotrichosis of the eyelashes in two separate clinical trials, both in the Phase II. Very little information is available about this new molecule apart from its definition as being a novel physiologically active fatty acid derivative."
> 
> http://www.geneticbaldness.com/yet-a...hair-loss.html
> 
> phase 2a was completed in last 2011, and their phase 2B was a comparaison trial with minox. I think if they search to license it, the phase 2B is almost completed now and maybe phase 3 can be skipped as it is a non prescription drug apparently


 Hey lacazette, thanks for the info.
I don't expect from this but if they can show better effectiveness and safety than minox they will surely find a place on the market.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Found something that caught my eye regarding Allergan and bim.

To recap, I have said that I am certain they will release results on Nov. 4th. There's no possible way I could know whether or not a product would be launched, but if they have continued development since the phase 2b trial, it is possible. I strongly believe they would have immediately continued production, because since they plan on bringing it to market, that means it works. If it works, and meets their biggest requisite to be more powerful than Rogaine, than you can bet that Allergan or ANY company will do anything to bring it to market ASAP. 

I found the mention of bim for scalp mentioned among a good number of programs that have recently been FDA approved, very encouraging. I looked at that chart in the Q2 2015 presentation, and looked up each drug (the programs they listed among 70 they are "continuing development" on). Turns out, the majority have recently (within the last 6 months) been approved by the FDA. The remainder are late phase 3.

*Anyway, here is the main purpose of this post...*

I found an article today which shows that Allergan is investing $7.5 million into a plant in Waco, TX. The money is for new processing equipment to make packaging for new and existing products. AND guess what, this plant produces and distributes Restasis, Refresh, LATISSE, and LUMIGAN. So, this plant produces BIMATOPROST, the main ingredient in Latisse and Lumigan. The head of the plant says the packaging is for worldwide distribution, "but declined to comment on the name or use of the new products, saying Allergan would release that information closer to the time they become available on the market." 

(here's the article for reference: http://www.wacotrib.com/news/busines...7e4fe1ec5.html)

So we know a NEW product is being launched, which is why they have purchased the new packaging equipment. We know that this plant only produces a few different drugs, two of them being bimatoprost based. We also know that bimatoprost has been alive this entire time, but without mention until 3 months from a key R&D pipeline update taking place from where this project originated (Irvine, CA). The VP of Operations even tells us that Allergan will release the information of what the drug is, or is for closer to the time it becomes available on the market (something I've said all along regarding a bim launch for Allergan).

----------


## lifelonglearning

Welcome back always appreciate your posts

----------


## JayM

> Found something that caught my eye regarding Allergan and bim.
> 
> To recap, I have said that I am certain they will release results on Nov. 4th. There's no possible way I could know whether or not a product would be launched, but if they have continued development since the phase 2b trial, it is possible. I strongly believe they would have immediately continued production, because since they plan on bringing it to market, that means it works. If it works, and meets their biggest requisite to be more powerful than Rogaine, than you can bet that Allergan or ANY company will do anything to bring it to market ASAP. 
> 
> I found the mention of bim for scalp mentioned among a good number of programs that have recently been FDA approved, very encouraging. I looked at that chart in the Q2 2015 presentation, and looked up each drug (the programs they listed among 70 they are "continuing development" on). Turns out, the majority have recently (within the last 6 months) been approved by the FDA. The remainder are late phase 3.
> 
> *Anyway, here is the main purpose of this post...*
> 
> I found an article today which shows that Allergan is investing $7.5 million into a plant in Waco, TX. The money is for new processing equipment to make packaging for new and existing products. AND guess what, this plant produces and distributes Restasis, Refresh, LATISSE, and LUMIGAN. So, this plant produces BIMATOPROST, the main ingredient in Latisse and Lumigan. The head of the plant says the packaging is for worldwide distribution, "but declined to comment on the name or use of the new products, saying Allergan would release that information closer to the time they become available on the market." 
> ...


 That's fair enough, great post man. Good to see you back! Kythera/Allergan have also applied IND for Seti so maybe they are seeing results with PG's

----------


## Swooping

Interesting. Let's hope for the better. Could be for another drug though. One more month before we get to know more I guess. Have you looked into Samumed recently It's214ComeOnAlready? You seem to be very up to date and informed how companies move and such. I am pretty interested in what Samumed their compound will bring to the table.

----------


## baldybald

> Interesting. Let's hope for the better. Could be for another drug though. One more month before we get to know more I guess. Have you looked into Samumed recently It's214ComeOnAlready? You seem to be very up to date and informed how companies move and such. I am pretty interested in what Samumed their compound will bring to the table.


 I think they make everything secret. That is interesting because there are a lot of thing is going on the backstage and we do not know about.

----------


## Helix

> Found something that caught my eye regarding Allergan and bim.
> 
> To recap, I have said that I am certain they will release results on Nov. 4th. There's no possible way I could know whether or not a product would be launched, but if they have continued development since the phase 2b trial, it is possible. I strongly believe they would have immediately continued production, because since they plan on bringing it to market, that means it works. If it works, and meets their biggest requisite to be more powerful than Rogaine, than you can bet that Allergan or ANY company will do anything to bring it to market ASAP. 
> 
> I found the mention of bim for scalp mentioned among a good number of programs that have recently been FDA approved, very encouraging. I looked at that chart in the Q2 2015 presentation, and looked up each drug (the programs they listed among 70 they are "continuing development" on). Turns out, the majority have recently (within the last 6 months) been approved by the FDA. The remainder are late phase 3.
> 
> *Anyway, here is the main purpose of this post...*
> 
> I found an article today which shows that Allergan is investing $7.5 million into a plant in Waco, TX. The money is for new processing equipment to make packaging for new and existing products. AND guess what, this plant produces and distributes Restasis, Refresh, LATISSE, and LUMIGAN. So, this plant produces BIMATOPROST, the main ingredient in Latisse and Lumigan. The head of the plant says the packaging is for worldwide distribution, "but declined to comment on the name or use of the new products, saying Allergan would release that information closer to the time they become available on the market." 
> ...


 Well done !

----------


## barfacan

Unfortunately swiss believes bim is weak and shitty

----------


## baldybald

> Unfortunately swiss believes bim is weak and shitty


 It is a fact actually.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

IDGAF who or what "swiss temples" believes. Nobody has tried bim at 3%. Anyone who says bim is weak  doesn't understand the importance of concentration and dosing. 

An alcoholic beverage with 5% alcohol is going to be like water compared to one that is 50%.

----------


## baldybald

> IDGAF who or what "swiss temples" believes. Nobody has tried bim at 3%. Anyone who says bim is weak  doesn't understand the importance of concentration and dosing. 
> 
> An alcoholic beverage with 5% alcohol is going to be like water compared to one that is 50%.


 Who said increasing the concentration of any product will increase the effectiveness?
Is minoxidil 15% better than 5% ? The answer is no even though some say yes, is fin 5 mg better than 1 mg ? The answer is no.

----------


## InBeforeTheCure

> Who said increasing the concentration of any product will increase the effectiveness?
> Is minoxidil 15% better than 5% ? The answer is no even though some say yes, is fin 5 mg better than 1 mg ? The answer is no.


 Well, the concentration obviously makes a difference up to a certain point, and at some point there are diminishing returns. The question is at what concentration does that plateau happen in bimatoprost?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Who said increasing the concentration of any product will increase the effectiveness?
> Is minoxidil 15% better than 5% ? The answer is no even though some say yes, is fin 5 mg better than 1 mg ? The answer is no.


 Alright well, you've shown you're behind in what you know. I'll be glad to get you up to speed. Concentration has been the biggest issue for this drug. It is why they ran a phase 2b. They ran a trial with .3%, and found that it wasn't enough. They then ran a trial (phase 2b) with a formulation that is 10X greater (3%). And now we see that the development has continued, which means they are pleased with 3%. 

Please refer to earlier pages in this thread. There is lots of good stuff. I don't have time to post everything, but you'd be doing yourself a favor by doing a little research rather than saying "no it's crap - my brain and swiss temples said so."

----------


## baldybald

> Alright well, you've shown you're behind in what you know. I'll be glad to get you up to speed. Concentration has been the biggest issue for this drug. It is why they ran a phase 2b. They ran a trial with .3%, and found that it wasn't enough. They then ran a trial (phase 2b) with a formulation that is 10X greater (3%). And now we see that the development has continued, which means they are pleased with 3%. 
> 
> Please refer to earlier pages in this thread. There is lots of good stuff. I don't have time to post everything, but you'd be doing yourself a favor by doing a little research rather than saying "no it's crap, swiss temples said so."


 Thanks that helped

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Interesting. Let's hope for the better. Could be for another drug though. One more month before we get to know more I guess. Have you looked into Samumed recently It's214ComeOnAlready? You seem to be very up to date and informed how companies move and such. I am pretty interested in what Samumed their compound will bring to the table.


 Yea you are right, it could be another drug. We'll know in a month. I think what I liked the most is that the article was very specific in mentioning that it was for the packaging of the product, and not new equipment to make a new drug. It leads me to think that it has something to do with a container, or delivery system (i.e. foam can like rogaine) and that they are going to use with a drug that possibly already exists in production at the plant. The article also mentions the VP of Operations saying that they could see the need to hire more people at the plant by Q3 2016, if demand for the products increase. To me, it all but says Bimatoprost for hair loss, but we will find out for sure in a month. 

I have been keeping up on SM. It looks like some real interesting stuff for sure. I think their phase 2 dosing is over soon, and I thinks it's very possible that their 2nd phase 2 mini-trial has something to do with the 21st Century Cures Act. Turned out Samumed has some lobbyists in Washington; they must be in the loop about what is going on with the bill.

Hopefully we hear some good news about both soon.

----------


## JayM

You do know what swiss has been doing with his PG protocol though right? Search "A loss recovered, swiss temples blog". Yes they say bim is weak but he is only on castor for PGE2 and has had unreal growth (got to contribute it to the rest he's doing as well though). 

It will give you more hope Seti+bim will be a good combo.

----------


## Tomtom21

Glad to see you back 2014... Pending the launch of a phase 3, how long do you think it would take to see bim for hair loss hit the market? Before year end 2016? I really cant see bim for hair not coming to fruition because even at the weak/very low dose if lumigan it produced an effect.  Also, now that allergan has officially taken over kythera, are they now responsible for the seti trials? Lastly, since seti has been covered extensively for other conditions, can allergan jump directly into a phase 2 poc trial for seti?

----------


## unbalding

> Alright well, you've shown you're behind in what you know. I'll be glad to get you up to speed. Concentration has been the biggest issue for this drug. It is why they ran a phase 2b. They ran a trial with .3%, and found that it wasn't enough. They then ran a trial (phase 2b) with a formulation that is 10X greater (3%). And now we see that the development has continued, which means they are pleased with 3%. 
> 
> Please refer to earlier pages in this thread. There is lots of good stuff. I don't have time to post everything, but you'd be doing yourself a favor by doing a little research rather than saying "no it's crap - my brain and swiss temples said so."


 Where did you get this from? The only trial results I've seen are for .03%. I've seen no mention from them anywhere about what dosage they used in their latest trial. They are supposed to release those study results later this year.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Where did you get this from? The only trial results I've seen are for .03%. I've seen no mention from them anywhere about what dosage they used in their latest trial. They are supposed to release those study results later this year.


 please refer to previous posts in this thread. 

0.03% is for eyelashes, they initially tested 0.3% for the scalp in phase 2a, that wasn't strong enough so they trialled "a formulation which is 10X stronger," at 3% for phase 2b.

----------


## Swooping

> I think they make everything secret. That is interesting because there are a lot of thing is going on the backstage and we do not know about.


 Yes baldybald they seem to be pretty secretive indeed. Even their compound is. I'm curious too because this is the first ever direct b-catenin agonist (wnt pathway) ever to hit clinical trials afaik!




> Yea you are right, it could be another drug. We'll know in a month. I think what I liked the most is that the article was very specific in mentioning that it was for the packaging of the product, and not new equipment to make a new drug. It leads me to think that it has something to do with a container, or delivery system (i.e. foam can like rogaine) and that they are going to use with a drug that possibly already exists in production at the plant. The article also mentions the VP of Operations saying that they could see the need to hire more people at the plant by Q3 2016, if demand for the products increase. To me, it all but says Bimatoprost for hair loss, but we will find out for sure in a month. 
> 
> I have been keeping up on SM. It looks like some real interesting stuff for sure. I think their phase 2 dosing is over soon, and I thinks it's very possible that their 2nd phase 2 mini-trial has something to do with the 21st Century Cures Act. Turned out Samumed has some lobbyists in Washington; they must be in the loop about what is going on with the bill.
> 
> Hopefully we hear some good news about both soon.


 Thanks man, indeed interesting. Let´s hope one of them succeeds. And if not I hope at least that they will release the results.

----------


## charlie76761

> please refer to previous posts in this thread. 
> 
> 0.03% is for eyelashes, they initially tested 0.3% for the scalp in phase 2a, that wasn't strong enough so they trialled "a formulation which is 10X stronger," at 3% for phase 2b.


 Interesting - i've been using about 5mg a day (0.5%) for about 2mths and i've had to quit as real bad tinnitus (ear works on hair cells although cant say i can know while BIM would work directly on them!). I'd be v keen to see what they document

i'd be slightly surprised if they would invest such capital prior to completing Phase 3 / getting regulatory approval... but let's hope they know something we dont...!

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Interesting - i've been using about 5mg a day (0.5%) for about 2mths and i've had to quit as real bad tinnitus (ear works on hair cells although cant say i can know while BIM would work directly on them!). I'd be v keen to see what they document
> 
> i'd be slightly surprised if they would invest such capital prior to completing Phase 3 / getting regulatory approval... but let's hope they know something we dont...!


 You got tinnitus from using bim...that's definitely unusual. Are you sure it's not from something else? 

Anyway, the drug itself is already FDA approved. Also, if they've received approval or are planning to receive approval, it is at their own discretion to release such information.

It has been my thinking since it was discovered that they are moving forward with it, that the Q3 2015 Key pipeline update has something to do with it. The event itself is taking place from the former Allergan HQ and where it originated, and I believe if they are announcing a product, it will be turned into an event. A reveal for a new, very effective hair loss treatment product would be quite a splash. It would also reinforce the "Allergan" brand, which is the name Actavis adopted. It matters, that name is very important, and even "Rogaine" as a brand is very powerful. When people think hair loss, they think "Rogaine," I think Allergan wants that to change.

When it comes to hair loss (the holy grail of medical aesthetics) , or facial aesthetics, they want people to think Allergan, not another brand. It's a big deal.

----------


## charlie76761

> You got tinnitus from using bim...that's definitely unusual. Are you sure it's not from something else? 
> 
> Anyway, the drug itself is already FDA approved. Also, if they've received approval or are planning to receive approval, it is at their own discretion to release such information.
> 
> It has been my thinking since it was discovered that they are moving forward with it, that the Q3 2015 Key pipeline update has something to do with it. The event itself is taking place from the former Allergan HQ and where it originated, and I believe if they are announcing a product, it will be turned into an event. A reveal for a new, very effective hair loss treatment product would be quite a splash. It would also reinforce the "Allergan" brand, which is the name Actavis adopted. It matters, that name is very important, and even "Rogaine" as a brand is very powerful. When people think hair loss, they think "Rogaine," I think Allergan wants that to change.
> 
> When it comes to hair loss (the holy grail of medical aesthetics) , or facial aesthetics, they want people to think Allergan, not another brand. It's a big deal.


 
i do hope you're right!

Not sure if sure if you are correct re FDA approval already given - BIM has been approved at v low usage for  glaucoma and eye lash growth and as per allergan / manufacture instructions, 5ml is supposed to last to for 10 weeks which at 0.03% concentration is a daily dosage of 0.02mg of BIM

People on this forum are talking of the need at much higher for hair growth.. some even saying at 3% which is 30mg a day which is x1,400 more mg per day or 140,000% more. The current approval obviously wont cover dosage at the levels or anything close. Can't imagine more than x1 or x2 would be acceptable

re tinnitus - yes, everything has been constant in my regime. it's obviously a v powerful drug and i'm using at x140 times recommended mg volume

The good old human body.. such a fine equilibrium.. .change one factor here and something often happens there.. (dut, fin, minox to name a few...)

----------


## Hubris

I used to have terrible tinnitus from being overexposed to loud noises, but after I took myself away from this environment I slowly recovered to the point where I am now 'cured'. This is one of the most annoying conditions on Earth. From my understanding, it is often caused by tiny hair cells inside the ear becoming damaged. These damaged hair cells produce random noises, which your brain is unable to discriminate against and filter out.

Tinnitus happens to be a very common ailment, so I would look to other areas of your life before jumping to the conclusion that Bimatoprost is the cause. I guess it might be possible that Bimatoprost could alter the tiny hair cells in some way, but at this point I'm probably talking broscience as Swooping would refer to it.

----------


## eldarlmario

I do not know the reason why people are still pinning hopes on Bimatoprost for hairloss on *the bald scalp*

From the Cotsarelis patent:

GD2 was detected as 17 pg/mg of tissue in haired scalp and 75.5 pg/mg in bald scalp, representing a 4.4 fold increase in bald tissue. PGF2a also was slightly elevated in bald scalp with 6.7 pg/mg in haired scalp and 15.9 pg/mg in bald scalp. 

I choose to follow Dr Cotsareli's findings anytime of the day.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I do not know the reason why people are still pinning hopes on Bimatoprost for hairloss on *the bald scalp*
> 
> From the Cotsarelis patent:
> 
> GD2 was detected as 17 pg/mg of tissue in haired scalp and 75.5 pg/mg in bald scalp, representing a 4.4 fold increase in bald tissue. PGF2a also was slightly elevated in bald scalp with 6.7 pg/mg in haired scalp and 15.9 pg/mg in bald scalp. 
> 
> I choose to follow Dr Cotsareli's findings anytime of the day.


 I think you're confused. No one is expecting bim to help with a bald scalp. The point of bim is to reverse thinning, and promote hair growth with existing follicles.

----------


## unbalding

> please refer to previous posts in this thread. 
> 
> 0.03% is for eyelashes, they initially tested 0.3% for the scalp in phase 2a, that wasn't strong enough so they trialled "a formulation which is 10X stronger," at 3% for phase 2b.


 Here is the study:
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...ecia%22&rank=2

There is no mention of the dosage. Allergan has never said that they tested a 3% concentration of bimatoprost. I don't doubt that you saw it on a forum somewhere, but that doesn't make it true.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Here is the study:
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...ecia%22&rank=2
> 
> There is no mention of the dosage. Allergan has never said that they tested a 3% concentration of bimatoprost. I don't doubt that you saw it on a forum somewhere, but that doesn't make it true.


 ugh, ITS IN THE PATENT. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO...atoprost&q=aga

"The preferred bimatoprost concentration range is about 2-4% w/w, more preferably about 2.5-3.5% w/w. These preferred bimatoprost concentration ranges allow a surprisingly good balance to be achieved between the wanted pharmacologic effects of the composition and any unwanted side-effects. It had previously been thought that bimatoprost compositions for stimulating growth of hair should have a much lower bimatoprost concentration; this has now surprisingly been found not to be the case."

Dude, I don't have time to answer everyone's questions. I don't repost things found in other forums, I look this stuff up myself with plenty of reliable references. Go through this thread if you want all of your questions answered.

I'm done posting until we get more news about bim.

----------


## unbalding

> ugh, ITS IN THE PATENT. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO...atoprost&q=aga
> 
> "The preferred bimatoprost concentration range is about 2-4% w/w, more preferably about 2.5-3.5% w/w. These preferred bimatoprost concentration ranges allow a surprisingly good balance to be achieved between the wanted pharmacologic effects of the composition and any unwanted side-effects. It had previously been thought that bimatoprost compositions for stimulating growth of hair should have a much lower bimatoprost concentration; this has now surprisingly been found not to be the case."
> 
> Dude, I don't have time to answer everyone's questions. I don't repost things found in other forums, I look this stuff up myself with plenty of reliable references. Go through this thread if you want all of your questions answered.


 It seems to me if you got it from the patent you could've said "from the patent", just as easily as, "from the forum". Anyways, the patent doesn't confirm your claims. The fact is you don't know what concentrations they tested, nor what the results were. All we know is that in their latest trial they tested a ten-fold increase over the previous trial that failed to meet expectations. Without knowing what the concentration of the previous trial was we can't know what the concentration of the latest trial was. They may very well have tested 1%, 3%, and 5%, and found 1% to be the optimal dose. I'm not trying to nitpick, but I don't think assumptions should be posted as facts.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> It seems to me if you got it from the patent you could've said "from the patent", just as easily as, "from the forum". Anyways, the patent doesn't confirm your claims. The fact is you don't know what concentrations they tested, nor what the results were. All we know is that in their latest trial they tested a ten-fold increase over the previous trial that failed to meet expectations. Without knowing what the concentration of the previous trial was we can't know what the concentration of the latest trial was. They may very well have tested 1%, 3%, and 5%, and found 1% to be the optimal dose. I'm not trying to nitpick, but I don't think assumptions should be posted as facts.


 You are trying to nitpick. 

Bottom line: .3% was previously tested, and that is also included in the patent, if you bothered to do some reading. Also, who gives rat crap what the actual number for the concentration is? They figured it out, and they are moving forward with bim as they plainly stated. They have said all along that if it is noticeably stronger than minox, they will move forward with it and bring it to market. All signs point to them doing just that. 

You are quibbling over BS.

----------


## Hubris

> You are trying to nitpick. 
> 
> Bottom line: .3% was previously tested, and that is also included in the patent, if you bothered to do some reading. Also, who gives rat crap what the actual number for the concentration is? They figured it out, and they are moving forward with bim as they plainly stated. They have said all along that if it is noticeably stronger than minox, they will move forward with it and bring it to market. All signs point to them doing just that. 
> 
> You are quibbling over BS.


 As you state, if this product is to be released, it will surely be more powerful than Minoxidil. Want I want to know is, could Bimatoprost and Minoxidil be used together to create a synergistic growth effect? I understand that perhaps no one really knows the answer to this, but I'm open to theory and speculation.

----------


## unbalding

> You are trying to nitpick. 
> 
> Bottom line: .3% was previously tested, and that is also included in the patent, if you bothered to do some reading. Also, who gives rat crap what the actual number for the concentration is? They figured it out, and they are moving forward with bim as they plainly stated. They have said all along that if it is noticeably stronger than minox, they will move forward with it and bring it to market. All signs point to them doing just that. 
> 
> You are quibbling over BS.


 Again, you don't know .3% was previously tested. You have no way of knowing that. To answer your question, people who want to try it give a "rat crap" what the actual concentration is. You are telling people that you know, factually, that 3% is the optimal dosage, when in fact you are just assuming that. Someone who reads that might go out and start using an expensive compound at 3x the concentration that is necessary. All signs point to bimatoprost working better than minoxidil, but it is very important to know the optimal dosage. Let's not tell people we know what it is when we really don't.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Again, you don't know .3% was previously tested. You have no way of knowing that. To answer your question, people who want to try it give a "rat crap" what the actual concentration is. You are telling people that you know, factually, that 3% is the optimal dosage, when in fact you are just assuming that. Someone who reads that might go out and start using an expensive compound at 3x the concentration that is necessary. All signs point to bimatoprost working better than minoxidil, but it is very important to know the optimal dosage. Let's not tell people we know what it is when we really don't.


 AGAIN, It shows in the patent that .3% was previously tested in patients. It gives actual evidence. Then it goes on to describe how and why it arrived at that range of 2.5%-3.5%. I'm not making anything up. You are assuming I am because you refuse to READ any material on your own. 

It isn't important to know the optimal dosage because pure bimatoprost powder costs $700-$900 per GRAM. Go buy some if you're so curious, and let us know how it goes. I'll wait until a product is distributed worldwide and becomes much more affordable.

----------


## unbalding

> AGAIN, It shows in the patent that .3% was previously tested in patients. It gives actual evidence. Then it goes on to describe how and why it arrived at that range of 2.5%-3.5%. I'm not making anything up. You are assuming I am because you refuse to READ any material on your own. 
> 
> It isn't important to know the optimal dosage because pure bimatoprost powder costs $700-$900 per GRAM. Go buy some if you're so curious, and let us know how it goes. I'll wait until a product is distributed worldwide and becomes much more affordable.


 You're right, I don't have time to read the entire patent. I have a life.

I did find this though:




> Examples of particularly preferred compositions for growing hair by topical application comprise bimatoprost in free form or a pharmaceutically acceptable salt thereof, wherein the bimatoprost is contained in an amount of about 0.3% w/w to about 4% w/w


 That's a big range. There's no reason to believe that the optimal dose is at the top of that range. Considering the cost of the powder, I think it makes more sense to try 1% before trying 3%. If you want to try 3% then go right ahead, but don't tell people that 3% is the optimal dose. You don't work for Allergan.

I'm about to start PGE2. If I don't have success with that I will try bimatoprost at 1%. Why should I tell you how it goes though? You're a jerk. All I did was ask you a simple question, "where did you get that information from", so that I could check it out myself. Instead of answering me you picked a fight. You don't want to help me by just telling me where you got your information from, but you want me to share the results of my experiment with you? Get out of here.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

I did a little more digging and it turns out, in February 2014, Allergan invested $10.6 million into this plant in Waco for a 22,000 sq ft. expansion to produce Latisse. I think it might be fair to say, this place could be the main center in the US where bimatoprost is produced by Allergan. 

and 

Kris Collins, senior vice president for economic development at the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce, said about the plant: "If it’s an eye product made by Allergan, it’s probably produced in Waco." 

Now, I know this guy isn't an Allergan representative. However, he must have intimate knowledge the kind of distribution they do, what they produce, etc. etc. I'd actually trust the word of person in his position, then someone working for the company. They're more likely to not say anything at all. 

It could be another drug, but I find all these coincidences are starting to paint a picture imo.

----------


## barfacan

But what do you think about 9/11?

----------


## Occulus

> I did a little more digging and it turns out, in February 2014, Allergan invested $10.6 million into this plant in Waco for a 22,000 sq ft. expansion to produce Latisse. I think it might be fair to say, this place could be the main center in the US where bimatoprost is produced by Allergan. 
> 
> and 
> 
> Kris Collins, senior vice president for economic development at the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce, said about the plant: "If its an eye product made by Allergan, its probably produced in Waco." 
> 
> Now, I know this guy isn't an Allergan representative. However, he must have intimate knowledge the kind of distribution they do, what they produce, etc. etc. I'd actually trust the word of person in his position, then someone working for the company. They're more likely to not say anything at all. 
> 
> It could be another drug, but I find all these coincidences are starting to paint a picture imo.


 Maybe it's worth giving this Collins guy a call and see if he's willing to give a bit more information?  Say you're a reporter.

----------


## eldarlmario

> I did a little more digging and it turns out, in February 2014, Allergan invested $10.6 million into this plant in Waco for a 22,000 sq ft. expansion to produce Latisse. I think it might be fair to say, this place could be the main center in the US where bimatoprost is produced by Allergan. 
> 
> and 
> 
> Kris Collins, senior vice president for economic development at the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce, said about the plant: "If it’s an eye product made by Allergan, it’s probably produced in Waco." 
> 
> Now, I know this guy isn't an Allergan representative. However, he must have intimate knowledge the kind of distribution they do, what they produce, etc. etc. I'd actually trust the word of person in his position, then someone working for the company. They're more likely to not say anything at all. 
> 
> It could be another drug, but I find all these coincidences are starting to paint a picture imo.


 sorry im afraid u would be disappointed bigtime by pinning all the hope on Bimatoprost.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> sorry im afraid u would be disappointed bigtime by pinning all the hope on Bimatoprost.


 Alright, well let me know when you've solved hair loss and are a billionaire. What happened to that 90-something page thread you had going with 95% of those posts belonging to you? Couldn't figure it out? Damn, you had me convinced you were so close. 

Given that you thought you could figure out hair loss by loosely piecing together a bunch of peer reviewed journals, you're not someone I'd *ever* listen to advice from.

Thanks, but no thanks.

----------


## JayM

> Alright, well let me know when you've solved hair loss and are a billionaire. What happened to that 90-something page thread you had going with 95% of those posts belonging to you? Couldn't figure it out? Damn, you had me convinced you were so close. 
> 
> Given that you thought you could figure out hair loss by loosely piecing together a bunch of peer reviewed journals, you're not someone I'd *ever* listen to advice from.
> 
> Thanks, but no thanks.


 rEKT. Saying it how it is.

----------


## breakbot

> Alright, well let me know when you've solved hair loss and are a billionaire. What happened to that 90-something page thread you had going with 95% of those posts belonging to you? Couldn't figure it out? Damn, you had me convinced you were so close. 
> 
> Given that you thought you could figure out hair loss by loosely piecing together a bunch of peer reviewed journals, you're not someone I'd *ever* listen to advice from.
> 
> Thanks, but no thanks.


 You shouldn't behave this way to Eldarlmario..I''l tell you that he is very close to find the cure. You shouldn't fight with a person whose dedicated to find the last pieces of Cotsarelis research.

----------


## Occulus

> Alright, well let me know when you've solved hair loss and are a billionaire. What happened to that 90-something page thread you had going with 95% of those posts belonging to you? Couldn't figure it out? Damn, you had me convinced you were so close. 
> 
> Given that you thought you could figure out hair loss by loosely piecing together a bunch of peer reviewed journals, you're not someone I'd *ever* listen to advice from.
> 
> Thanks, but no thanks.


 Bim is the closest, effective new protocol we've had since Dut.  If Bim doesn't work out, it will be a minimum of five to seven years before something else MIGHT be available.  If Bim doesn't play out, we can all take a break from the forums for the rest of the decade, because there won't be anything new until then.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Bim is the closest, effective new protocol we've had since Dut.  If Bim doesn't work out, it will be a minimum of five to seven years before something else MIGHT be available.  If Bim doesn't play out, we can all take a break from the forums for the rest of the decade, because there won't be anything new until then.


 Nah if bim doesn't come out next month, it'll be here in a year or so. They've shown they will continue development to bring it to market. The only question remains is their progress. If they've known that this drug works for the past year and haven't done anything about it, they are morons (but I highly doubt this is the case). 

Worst comes to worst, they haven't begun phase 3, in which case it will be a year or so. But I highly, highly doubt this is the case.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> You shouldn't behave this way to Eldarlmario..I''l tell you that he is very close to find the cure. You shouldn't fight with a person whose dedicated to find the last pieces of Cotsarelis research.


 I'm sorry, I'm not treating anyone poorly, just putting things into perspective. After every post I've made about bim, you've called me a liar, BSer, I'm dreaming, full of it etc etc. Now you're telling me how to talk to people? You think some dude on a forum is closer to the cure than Cots? DELUSIONAL! AND you had a problem with me posting about bim all this time...only to find out that I've been right on the money about pretty much everything. 

Who do you think you are?

----------


## burtandernie

Lets pretend this is out now. How much would it cost and how often would you need to use it and in what amount? I know its guessing, but is it going to be really expensive compared to say minox and fin per month?

----------


## eldarlmario

> Nah if bim doesn't come out next month, it'll be here in a year or so. They've shown they will continue development to bring it to market. The only question remains is their progress. If they've known that this drug works for the past year and haven't done anything about it, they are morons (but I highly doubt this is the case). 
> 
> Worst comes to worst, they haven't begun phase 3, in which case it will be a year or so. But I highly, highly doubt this is the case.


 dude, i have used this http://www.scbt.com/datasheet-222336-tafluprost.html . It's WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY~~~~~ than bimatoprost. Did nothing and even accelerated shedding. On top of that- it caused nerve pain in my left arm and some tinnitus in my right ear. Furthermore, Dr Cotsarelis's PGD2 study already stated that PGF2a levels are slightly elevated in bald scalp when compared to haired-scalp. U are going to get disappointed BIGTIME if you still pin all that hope on Bimatoprost.

*PS take note im refering to hair on the balding scalp- i have no doubt that Bimatoprost works for elongating eyelashes- on top of worsening your dark eye circles and causing fat loss underneath your eyes. How do I know all these?? I have already tried all these before. Seriously, I really wished that PGF2a would work for hair gorwth on the bald scalp- but all the Data PLUS my own experience doesnt says so.

----------


## JayM

> I'm sorry, I'm not treating anyone poorly, just putting things into perspective. After every post I've made about bim, you've called me a liar, BSer, I'm dreaming, full of it etc etc. Now you're telling me how to talk to people? You think some dude on a forum is closer to the cure than Cots? DELUSIONAL! AND you had a problem with me posting about bim all this time...only to find out that I've been right on the money about pretty much everything. 
> 
> Who do you think you are?


 Holy sh*t I thought he was trolling.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Holy sh*t I thought he was trolling.


 HAHA I didn't even consider it. Holy crap it's been a long day.

----------


## barfacan

> dude, i have used this http://www.scbt.com/datasheet-222336-tafluprost.html . It's WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY~~~~~ than bimatoprost. Did nothing and even accelerated shedding. On top of that- it caused nerve pain in my left arm and some tinnitus in my right ear. Furthermore, Dr Cotsarelis's PGD2 study already stated that PGF2a levels are slightly elevated in bald scalp when compared to haired-scalp. U are going to get disappointed BIGTIME if you still pin all that hope on Bimatoprost.
> 
> *PS take note im refering to hair on the balding scalp- i have no doubt that Bimatoprost works for elongating eyelashes- on top of worsening your dark eye circles and causing fat loss underneath your eyes. How do I know all these?? I have already tried all these before. Seriously, I really wished that PGF2a would work for hair gorwth on the bald scalp- but all the Data PLUS my own experience doesnt says so.


 
Agreed.

You're going to have to use PGE2; the REAL shit

----------


## breakbot

> I'm sorry, I'm not treating anyone poorly, just putting things into perspective. After every post I've made about bim, you've called me a liar, BSer, I'm dreaming, full of it etc etc. Now you're telling me how to talk to people? You think some dude on a forum is closer to the cure than Cots? DELUSIONAL! AND you had a problem with me posting about bim all this time...only to find out that I've been right on the money about pretty much everything. 
> 
> Who do you think you are?


 Haha I'm with you man on this. It was a joke. 
Eldarlmario will  cure us all. :Big Grin:

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

found out another bit of information that we could add to the pile - 

I had no idea exactly what the Irvine CA campus was used for after the merger. Before, it was the HQ, and now the HQ is in NJ. Turns out, *the Irvine CA campus is now the base for Allergan's aesthetic medicine unit*. Hopefully, everyone knows by now that their R&D update takes place there. We also know that they are preparing to release a new drug, and that this drug will be distributed worldwide via their plant in Waco, which primarily makes restasis and bimatoprost based products. 

Needless to say, whatever the new drug is, it is very likely that it will be something in aesthetics. After all, what purpose or significance would it serve for them to have the conference there, unless the highlight of the "show" had something to do with aesthetics?

Taking a look at their late-stage aesthetic pipeline from the last presentation, it shows kybella (launched), two acne drugs in phase 3, bimatoprost for hair growth, and dermal fillers (one had launched last month). Allergan's new thing is all about going "bold" in what they do. I believe if their going to note the importance of their aesthetic campus, and want to be bold, the way to do it is with the release of an effective hair loss product. That is bold, and the world would take notice for sure. Sure, acne treatments are good and all, but would not grab the same attention that an effective hair loss treatment would.

----------


## champpy

It would be bold, but i think its more likely they are expanding in waco because of the release and expected demand of kybella. I want to be hopeful but sometimes they easiest explanation is the most likely one. I really want to be proven wrong though man. there's just no real evidence that a hair loss product is any further along then those other phase 3 drugs

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> It would be bold, but i think its more likely they are expanding in waco because of the release and expected demand of kybella. I want to be hopeful but sometimes they easiest explanation is the most likely one. I really want to be proven wrong though man. there's just no real evidence that a hair loss product is any further along then those other phase 3 drugs


 Kybella is not a "new" drug. It has already been released and has it's own production. The article I posted also details that the money is for new equipment to make new packaging, not to make a new drug at that plant. That plant produces mostly restasis and bimatoprost. Please read all the material I've posted recently. I'm not pulling sh-- out of thin air, I think you are ignoring a lot of the details. 

"The easiest explanation is usually the most likely one" - hmm... so nothing about bim for a year, gets a mention among a number of very late stage drugs, 3 months later there is a Q3 and pipeline update event from the Allergan HQ of aesthetics, meanwhile new packaging is being created at a plant in Waco which does worldwide distribution of Latisse with 22,000 sq ft solely for making that product. Sorry you so badly want those results, but I've said all along they would not say anything until they have a product to market, and that is something that Waco article reiterated about the new drug.

There is also mention in the article that if demand for these new products increases, they will hire more workers by Q3 2016, the one year mark after what I'm predicting is a launch for bim. Believe what you want, but I don't think you're using much logic.

----------


## HelloVera

Hoping its a Mexican stand off scenario leading up to the Congress and after it leads to a rush for a viable treatment like Bim to be bought out by these companies after seeing how close the others are. Esp if the new ones are a improvement on the big 2.

----------


## champpy

> Kybella is not a "new" drug. It has already been released and has it's own production. The article I posted also details that the money is for new equipment to make new packaging, not to make a new drug at that plant. That plant produces mostly restasis and bimatoprost. Please read all the material I've posted recently. I'm not pulling sh-- out of thin air, I think you are ignoring a lot of the details. 
> 
> "The easiest explanation is usually the most likely one" - hmm... so nothing about bim for a year, gets a mention among a number of very late stage drugs, 3 months later there is a Q3 and pipeline update event from the Allergan HQ of aesthetics, meanwhile new packaging is being created at a plant in Waco which does worldwide distribution of Latisse with 22,000 sq ft solely for making that product. Sorry you so badly want those results, but I've said all along they would not say anything until they have a product to market, and that is something that Waco article reiterated about the new drug.
> 
> There is also mention in the article that if demand for these new products increases, they will hire more workers by Q3 2016, the one year mark after what I'm predicting is a launch for bim. Believe what you want, but I don't think you're using much logic.


 Can you tell me then how they possibly managed to get away with phase 3 being a secretive test? Doesnt that have to be disclosed or am i pulling s_ out of thin air again? 

and if it does have to be disclosed, then that means they haven't started phase 3 yet and it would be another year from now, right?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Can you tell me then how they possibly managed to get away with phase 3 being a secretive test? Doesnt that have to be disclosed or am i pulling s_ out of thin air again? 
> 
> and if it does have to be disclosed, then that means they haven't started phase 3 yet and it would be another year from now, right?


 I have my own interpretation, and I have no interest in going back and forth over it with you. 

I also never said you're pulling sh-- out of thin air. I simply said that I wasn't. I think you have some reading comprehension issues. 

I'm not here to try and comfort you with explanations etc, I only post what I find. If you want my thoughts on the phase 3, you can go and look for it in this thread. I'm not going to go over it again.

----------


## JayM

> i have my own interpretation, and i have no interest in going back and forth over it with you. 
> 
> I also never said you're pulling sh-- out of thin air. I simply said that i wasn't. I think you have some reading comprehension issues. 
> 
> I'm not here to try and comfort you with explanations etc, i only post what i find. If you want my thoughts on the phase 3, you can go and look for it in this thread. I'm not going to go over it again.


 preach

----------


## unbalding

> dude, i have used this http://www.scbt.com/datasheet-222336-tafluprost.html . It's WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY~~~~~ than bimatoprost. Did nothing and even accelerated shedding. On top of that- it caused nerve pain in my left arm and some tinnitus in my right ear. Furthermore, Dr Cotsarelis's PGD2 study already stated that PGF2a levels are slightly elevated in bald scalp when compared to haired-scalp. U are going to get disappointed BIGTIME if you still pin all that hope on Bimatoprost.


 Rumor had it when the phase 2 trial ended that the results were superior to minoxidil. The fact that one person experimented with something similar to bimatoprost, in small doses, and had no results, is not in any way scientifically meaningful. Let's just wait for them to announce their results, ok?

----------


## lifelonglearning

Found this interesting

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25765294

"Bimatoprost solution represents a therapeutic option for scalp AA."

----------


## rdawg

> Found this interesting
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25765294
> 
> "Bimatoprost solution represents a therapeutic option for scalp AA."


 "All responding AA patches showed significant reduction in their SALT score after therapy. Area B demonstrated significantly better results regarding rapidity of response in weeks, percentage of hair re-growth and side effects compared to area A."

It clearly has an affect on hair, even at low doses, just needs a higher dose, I have no doubt that it works it's just is it to the extent that BIM can sell it over minoxidil? I think the problem here is, is it marketable? is it 10% better than min, 20%, 50% etc. if it's only 5-10% better and will cost ten times more, it may not be worth it to release.

----------


## lifelonglearning

Well minoxidil doesnt work for everyone and causes initial shedding so as long as bim regrows and thickens 

just saying (1) works for 100% of people and (2) causes no initial shed should be enough to market it

----------


## dutchguyhanging

> Well minoxidil doesnt work for everyone and causes initial shedding so as long as bim regrows and thickens 
> 
> just saying (1) works for 100% of people and (2) causes no initial shed should be enough to market it


 well u dont have to state the obvious. any treatment which comes to the market should be 100% proven works for everyone. otherwise there is no money... either cure or fin minox

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## Hubris

> well u dont have to state the obvious. any treatment which comes to the market should be 100% proven works for everyone. otherwise there is no money... either cure or fin minox


 I disagree. Minoxidil doesn't work for everyone and neither does finasteride. It isn't a reasonable standard to expect a drug to work for all people. It only needs to be significantly more effective than minoxidil for the majority of people in order to come to market.

----------


## lifelonglearning

> well u dont have to state the obvious. any treatment which comes to the market should be 100% proven works for everyone. otherwise there is no money... either cure or fin minox


 " While topical minoxidil exhibits a good safety profile, the efficacy in the overall population remains relatively low i.e., *30-40%* re-grow hair"

https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02198261

----------


## Hemo

> well u dont have to state the obvious. any treatment which comes to the market should be 100% proven works for everyone. otherwise there is no money... either cure or fin minox


 No treatment works for 100% of people.  Even if it only works for 60% of users, if it's easier to apply and/or more effective then it's worth bringing to market.  Long term effectiveness of minox is nowhere close to 100%.

----------


## burtandernie

> "All responding AA patches showed significant reduction in their SALT score after therapy. Area B demonstrated significantly better results regarding rapidity of response in weeks, percentage of hair re-growth and side effects compared to area A."
> 
> It clearly has an affect on hair, even at low doses, just needs a higher dose, I have no doubt that it works it's just is it to the extent that BIM can sell it over minoxidil? I think the problem here is, is it marketable? is it 10% better than min, 20%, 50% etc. if it's only 5-10% better and will cost ten times more, it may not be worth it to release.


 Some men will pay that premium even for 10 percent better results though. What other choice do you have its still cheaper than other options. Something is always better than nothing and this might work for people that fail at the other treatments since really only minox regrows anything. It surely has a good market if it works at all.

----------


## rdawg

> Some men will pay that premium even for 10 percent better results though. What other choice do you have its still cheaper than other options. Something is always better than nothing and this might work for people that fail at the other treatments since really only minox regrows anything. It surely has a good market if it works at all.


 Companies wont agree with this unless they see a profit, this is the same thing that happened with that other drug RU, it definitely had efficacy on hair but the company felt it wasnt marketable enough to sell more than FIN was already(plus one is a simple pill, the other was a topical) 

Companies at the end of the day obsess over profit, if they feel it's not worth putting through a 200 million dollar trial even though it works a little bit there is nothing we can do.

----------


## Occulus

> Some men will pay that premium even for 10 percent better results though. What other choice do you have its still cheaper than other options. Something is always better than nothing and this might work for people that fail at the other treatments since really only minox regrows anything. It surely has a good market if it works at all.


 Exactly.  Hell, you can make millions selling a bunch of herbs that has no affect on hair growth at all just by claiming it does.  You can make a hundred million dollars by selling a concoction that is simply minoxodil (it's been done before).  Something that can grow 10% more than Rogain immediately takes the market from Rogain.  If Rogain sells, something that is 10% more effective will sell a lot more.

----------


## dutchguyhanging

> No treatment works for 100% of people.  Even if it only works for 60% of users, if it's easier to apply and/or more effective then it's worth bringing to market.  Long term effectiveness of minox is nowhere close to 100%.


 thats the thing of it. we can not quantify the number and we will never be. it has to be something without doubt will work for everyone. until that day comes, minox and fin seems to be the only viable treatment.

and i dont think any big pharma will release any product unless it is the cure. lets be honest no one wants to take these drugs forever...

hairloss is a big market.. from what i see only 20-30% are actually taking these drugs... if there is a cure im sure everyone will buy it. speaking of myself I can pay up to 70 grand.. just make me NW0 without any sides and taking further drugs. and I know a lot of people who can afford that.

in other words there is a demand in the market but supply is not good enough. so buyers are not attracted and running away from the market...

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

May not mean anything, but given what's been going on I found this tweet from Allergan CEO, Brent Saunders, interesting. 

Oct 17, 2015

"Committed to expanding the aesthetics market for men." 

Also posted were websites with information about botox for men, as well as a study published last week regarding men, aesthetic medicine treatments, like botox, injectables etc. and what they would be likely to use, or interested in the most. Also included what subjects they were most likely to talk about with their dermatologist. The top were hair loss and facial wrinkles. A new hair loss treatment would be expanding the aesthetics market for men. Let's hope that's what he means, but I feel good about this.

----------


## HelloVera

Wouldn't this be easier to release since the active ingredient is already available in a similar thing and approved? So safety in dose would be the thing they would have to prove? Did read the company was in a lawsuit against generic brands and the money breakdown showed the generic brands was making just as much money. Over the years have seen plenty of shampoos claim to 'promote hair growth' and show a in house clinical trial as ref. It's all about wording to a lot of them so they can get away with it.

----------


## Tomtom21

@2014... Im not as certain as i was about bim being the new product in texas. They released this news yesterday for their new product "dry eye." Hopefully, they are still moving forward and we will find out in two weeks time.


http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....rol-news&nyo=0

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

i


> @2014... Im not as certain as i was about bim being the new product in texas. They released this news yesterday for their new product "dry eye." Hopefully, they are still moving forward and we will find out in two weeks time.
> 
> 
> http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....rol-news&nyo=0


 No, I know. They included an image of the product and its packaging, it's in the same exact greenish bottle and box as the other "Refresh" dry eye products. It's definitely not new packaging. It's a tweak to a product they already have with new labelling, but certainly not new packaging. 

They spent $7.5 million for new processing equipment to make new packaging. This means that whatever the product is, it has to be new packaging for a drug they already make. 

By the way, I would just like to include that their Q3 2015 and R&D key pipeline update is taking place from their Irvine campus, which I found out is the *base for their medical aesthetics unit*. This is not random. They chose this location for a reason. Makes literally no sense to have presentations and a reception at the base of their medical aesthetics unit, to talk about or launch products for eye care, gastro-intestinal, women's health, urology or drugs for mental health. Everything a corporation like this does is very calculated and thoroughly planned. Which is why when they list bim a few months before this event (from the base of their medical aesthetics unit), I get suspicious. I also think their CEO tweeting out that they are "committed to expanding the aesthetic market for men," is deliberate. As it stands, tackling hair loss would be huge, because most men don't get botox or dermal fillers (unless you're on TV, but that number is very low in terms of an entire market).

----------


## doinmyheadin

2014 are you Fox Mulder? Some of your posts lead me to think so  :Smile:    Although I do hope you are right, as we are all desperate for some good news about a decent new treatment that actually works.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> 2014 are you Fox Mulder? Some of your posts lead me to think so    Although I do hope you are right, as we are all desperate for some good news about a decent new treatment that actually works.


 Well, when it comes to bim, it's now a question of "when" rather than "if." 

I think the Waco news is very interesting, as is the Q3 and pipeline update event taking place at their base for medical aesthetics. Also having the CEO tweeting out (and he doesn't tweet that much) that they are "committed to expanding the aesthetics market *for men*," is interesting. It's all now a question of "when,"  and given how things seem to be developing, I'd say they are very close.

----------


## Hubris

> Well, when it comes to bim, it's now a question of "when" rather than "if."


 What makes you so confident in this statement? Because the CEO tweeted "committed to expanding the aesthetic market for men" and because they're working on some new packaging? Don't get me wrong, I truly hope you are correct, but it seems a bit too soon to say that this will definitely be coming to market.

The thing with bimatoprost is that it's expensive. As a result, the results are going to have to be a lot better than minoxidil in order to justify the extra expense for the average consumer. If it does work, we're all going to be penniless.

----------


## Hubris

> Well, when it comes to bim, it's now a question of "when" rather than "if."


 What makes you so confident in this statement? Because the CEO tweeted "committed to expanding the aesthetic market for men" and because they're working on some new packaging? Don't get me wrong, I truly hope you are correct, but it seems a bit too soon to say that this will definitely be coming to market.

The thing with bimatoprost is that it's expensive. Therefore, the results are going to have to be a lot better than minoxidil in order to justify the extra expense for the average consumer. If it does work, we're all going to be penniless.

----------


## baldybald

[QUOTE=Hubris;221335]What makes you so confident in this statement? Because the CEO tweeted "committed to expanding the aesthetic market for men" and because they're working on some new packaging? Don't get me wrong, I truly hope you are correct, but it seems a bit too soon to say that this will definitely be coming to market.

The thing with bimatoprost is that it's expensive. Therefore, the results are going to have to be a lot better than minoxidil in order to justify the extra expense for the average consumer. If it does work, we're all going to be penniless

Agreed

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> What makes you so confident in this statement? Because the CEO tweeted "committed to expanding the aesthetic market for men" and because they're working on some new packaging? Don't get me wrong, I truly hope you are correct, but it seems a bit too soon to say that this will definitely be coming to market.
> 
> The thing with bimatoprost is that it's expensive. Therefore, the results are going to have to be a lot better than minoxidil in order to justify the extra expense for the average consumer. If it does work, we're all going to be penniless.


 Well, you cherrypicked what I included in my last post. I'm very confident about how close they are for a number of reasons, not just the ones you mention.

Start with the chart of the 70+ mid to late stage programs *that they are moving forward with* (also means continuing development) in their Q2 2015 presentation. (You can look for the presentation on this page - http://ir.allergan.com/phoenix.zhtml...-presentations) Download the PDF for the Q2 2015 presentation and go to page 23 of the presentation. You will find a chart which lists their drugs that are closest to launch, and I know this because I looked up each of these drugs in the chart, and all have them have either launched recently, are scheduled to launch in late 2015/early 2016, or are well into phase 3. The chart *does indicate* that these are the closest to release among their mid-to-late stage projects. Bim was included in this presentation after over a year of quiet when everyone thought it was dead, because of how quiet it got. Three months from this Q2 presentation, we have their pipeline update and Q3 presentation from the center of Allergan's Medical Aesthetics Unit. Yes, bim falls under medical aesthetics for men. 

You're also ignoring the fact that the new machines to create new packaging cost $7.5 million (not peanuts). Also, this plant is most likely the largest producer of bimatoprost for Allergan in the country, maybe the world, with 22,000 Sq ft devoted to Latisse production alone. That doesn't even include Lumigan, which is also produced at that plant. I'm not saying I'm certain that bim is the drug, but I think it's very likely. 

Yes bim is expensive, but if it is manufactured and distributed on a global scale (which is what they are claiming to do with this new drug, as listed in the article), it brings the price down. If minox is $30 for bottle (or one month of use) and if bim works noticeably better, but anywhere on the scalp, I think a higher price is definitely justified. Also, according to data in their trials, once a desired hair thickness is achieved, bim can be used once or twice a week to maintain on those areas. Bimatoprost has shown in human hair studies to increase cell-to-cell signaling, which protects against the ravages of DHT. If they really want to take market share from their biggest competition - fin and minox, they'd better adjust the price to be somewhat reasonable for the masses. Let's not forget that something like this is a luxury.

I've posted this stuff before, please go back and read previous posts of mine so I don't have to keep doing it. I'm happy to answer questions or doubts, but it gets tiring because I've literally posted this stuff 3 times or so.

----------


## champpy

And if this isnt announced at their upcoming shareholder update, then you just keep saying its coming but push the timeline further back?

I just think that if this were actually working we would have seen aggressive trials like what sammumed has been doing w SM. I'm Way more confident they have something of use then the folks at allergen do

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> And if this isnt announced at their upcoming shareholder update, then you just keep saying its coming but push the timeline further back?
> 
> I just think that if this were actually working we would have seen aggressive trials like what sammumed has been doing w SM. I'm Way more confident they have something of use then the folks at allergen do


 Go follow the SM thread then! Don't post here if you think it's all BS.

----------


## champpy

No, no i think ill stay here. I like seeing how mad you get when someone disagrees w your speculations  :Wink: 

the only way I can see your theory playing out is if allergen has been preparing for the 21st century cures act and stalling until it gets passed. that way they may be able to skip phase 3 and save a boatload of money. then that might explain why their test has been on hold

----------


## Keki

Hey guys today i read pfizer and allergan will join toghter with a fusion, good or bad? Can we ****ig have 6 months without acquisitions?

----------


## Hubris

> Hey guys today i read pfizer and allergan will join toghter with a fusion, good or bad? Can we ****ig have 6 months without acquisitions?


 Does Pfizer own Rogaine? If so, it could be potentially bad.

----------


## macbeth81

> Does Pfizer own Rogaine? If so, it could be potentially bad.


 Pfizer sold it to Johnson & Johnson.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Pfizer sold it to Johnson & Johnson.


 ...in 2006

It's tough to see how this is bad for us. Pfizer wants to have its HQ in Dublin, where Allergan is based, to save money on corporate US taxes. They also want more branded drugs.

----------


## Tomtom21

Ppl need to relax here. Allergan was a huge company with a vast drug pipeline and portfolio. Now it is ever expanding with all these acquisitions and so forth. Sure they have the capital to finance trials to get bim through, but unlike samumed, hairloss/bim is just one of their many many many areas of drug development. Thus it will be a much more winded process getting the drug to market. I wish it didnt take as long as it has been taking, but I have a hard time believing that bim is bunk considering that we know it does produce an effect on hair growth (without seeing the last trials results it is known that bim does affect hair/eyelashes at the very least)  and that they mentioned it in their presentation months ago is solid evidence that there is something there. Maybe it wont make a nw 6 a nw 1 but anyone expecting that from
Bim had much to high of expectations to begin with. I support 2014s view on bim, but for now we need to just chill bc well know more in a few days from now

----------


## champpy

Im not so optimistic about bims future, and i have a question maybe some of you guys can answer. Is allergen/activis proceeding w any trials for setipiprant? I havent heard anything about that and thats worrisome to me also. we all think bim and set will be a one-two punch if released, but if bim is on hold and set never progressed then that's bad news

----------


## JayM

IND has been applied for Seti. Once approved they have confirmed being able to go straight into phase 2 trials.

----------


## Tomtom21

Like I said its a huge company with lots of operations... The drug development unfortunately takes time l, we just need to be patient (that way we dont stress the remaining hair we have left out of our scalps) for them to come through with these drugs

----------


## champpy

Thanks for that Jaym, i didnt know that

----------


## rdawg

Anyone know the specific date Allergans is supposed to give an update on their company? isnt it this week?

----------


## macbeth81

> Anyone know the specific date Allergans is supposed to give an update on their company? isnt it this week?


 November 4th.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300156963.html

----------


## rdawg

> November 4th.
> 
> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300156963.html


 Very interesting, hopefully they shed some light on this, either way we were promised the results in Q1 2016(whether it went forward or not) so we will find out soon how the drug actually did.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Very interesting, hopefully they shed some light on this, either way we were promised the results in Q1 2016(whether it went forward or not) so we will find out soon how the drug actually did.


 I actually remember a response that was given to a poster who had inquired about the trial results. He was told that the trial results would be discussed at their R&D day, which is a yearly event. It's in this thread. I don't feel like looking for it right now, but it's here.

----------


## jacobus

Do you mean this one? I received it on February 2nd 2015. 

_Hello,

The study results will be posted on ClinicalTrials.gov next year.  Please check the web site for the results in 2016.

Sincerely, 

Allergan
_

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Do you mean this one? I received it on February 2nd 2015. 
> 
> _Hello,
> 
> The study results will be posted on ClinicalTrials.gov next year.  Please check the web site for the results in 2016.
> 
> Sincerely, 
> 
> Allergan
> _


 Thanks, nope that wasn't it though. I'd find it, but I really don't feel like searching through 90+ pages of Bim threads.

----------


## unbalding

So we might find out how well this stuff did tomorrow? That's great news! Between this and SM I think we are finally going to enter a new phase of treatment after twenty years of being stuck with finasteride and minoxidil.

----------


## Arieux

I am not sure if that was mentioned here, but I've just seen that there will be Bimatoprost poster presentation during that congress: 



> Bimatoprost: a Hair Growth Promoting
> Prostamide Analogue, Stimulates Prostamide
> Synthetic Enzymes, While Inhibiting
> Prostaglandin Synthesis in Hair Follicles and
> Dermal Papilla Cells
> Mohammad Shalbaf, DVM, PhD, PgCHEP, FHEA,
> MEHRS | United Kingdom


 Info from final program.

And yes unbalding, I think that we are very close to the new treatment(s).

----------


## barfacan

If they don't post any results about it tomorrow, it's officially dead

----------


## Occulus

> If they don't post any results about it tomorrow, it's officially dead


 Yeah, I'm definitely losing hope.  If they don't give some indication of moving forward with it tomorrow, it's probably dead.

----------


## JayM

why would they present a poster at congress on it if it was dead? lol

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

@barfacan and @Occulus

The perpetual negativity is nonsense. You must be this way in your every day lives as well. What a shame. 

*They clearly stated in their previous quarterly presentation that bim is one of the 70+ programs they are moving forward with. I don't know how many times I have to state this, or direct you to the presentation I'm referencing.* 

The chart I'm speaking of also indicates that the programs listed are the closest to release and latest stage. Because, also as I have stated before (I took the time to look them up) each program is either well underway in Phase 3, launched, or set to launch in late 2015/early 2016. *Just use logic.*

----------


## burtandernie

> So we might find out how well this stuff did tomorrow? That's great news! Between this and SM I think we are finally going to enter a new phase of treatment after twenty years of being stuck with finasteride and minoxidil.


 It was bound to happen eventually.

----------


## barfacan

> @barfacan and @Occulus
> 
> The perpetual negativity is nonsense. You must be this way in your every day lives as well. What a shame. 
> 
> *They clearly stated in their previous quarterly presentation that bim is one of the 70+ programs they are moving forward with. I don't know how many times I have to state this, or direct you to the presentation I'm referencing.* 
> 
> The chart I'm speaking of also indicates that the programs listed are the closest to release and latest stage. Because, also as I have stated before (I took the time to look them up) each program is either well underway in Phase 3, launched, or set to launch in late 2015/early 2016. *Just use logic.*


 Self delusion can be just as bad if not worse than perpetual negativity.  But that's besides the point, since none of us know about others personal lives' and it would be very silly to theorize about same.

Anyway, if i recall correctly, you did mention admitting BIM's defeat should no news crop up during their presentation in November.  That is, once again, if i recall correctly  :Wink:   If they reveal even semi-good news, then i can finally shut up.

----------


## champpy

Ok i did find this bit of info on Mohammad Shalbaf webpage

"Currently I am investigating whether prostaglandin and prostamide signalling occur in the sebaceous glands. This study is funded by Allergan Inc., Irvine, CA, USA"

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/research/r...ad-shalbaf.php

Its encouraging but i still dont think we will hear about any imminent release during the congress or during the shareholders update. it'll be just enough to keep us intrigued

----------


## jamesst11

> It was bound to happen eventually.


 Nope... no new phase of treatment... I don't get what you all are so hopeful about?? give up for now... come back in another 5 years to hear the same old bullshit.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Ok i did find this bit of info on Mohammad Shalbaf webpage
> 
> "Currently I am investigating whether prostaglandin and prostamide signalling occur in the sebaceous glands. This study is funded by Allergan Inc., Irvine, CA, USA"
> 
> http://www.bradford.ac.uk/research/r...ad-shalbaf.php
> 
> Its encouraging but i still dont think we will hear about any imminent release during the congress or during the shareholders update. it'll be just enough to keep us intrigued


 Well, this makes me feel even better, actually! Knowing that Allergan directly funded this study, and that it came out of Irvine, CA where the R&D day is taking place is very positive. Thanks

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## BrianH123

I'm becoming bipolar... Every other comment is either optimistic/positive , or negative .. God I can't take the swings , it's never a good way to start or end the day reading these forums lol

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Regarding the funded study...I think it's good that Allergan is paying to get more info on the effect of this drug on the scalp. That particular study doesn't look like it's the AGA one, however. It's a study on sebaceous glands and the drug, not hair growth and the drug. Could just be a supplemental study, either way, it's good.

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## champpy

If its not hair related im not sure why they would do a presentation at the congress.... but again im very certain this can help existing hair thats not threatened by AGA, but i dont see it regrowing anything. Just my opinion though

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## unbalding

> If its not hair related im not sure why they would do a presentation at the congress.... but again im very certain this can help existing hair thats not threatened by AGA, but i dont see it regrowing anything. Just my opinion though


 I don't understand why people say this. At lower concentrations it was similar to minoxidil, so we already know that it regrows hair. The question is how much?

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## champpy

Because i used latisse and another off brand for 6 months on one spot near my temples. Guess how many new hairs grew? Not one
Let me add, i was also dermastamping the area also to help penetration. Nada man. Only reason i can think of is the aga is outweighing the effects of bim somehow

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## unbalding

> Because i used latisse and another off brand for 6 months on one spot near my temples. Guess how many new hairs grew? Not one


 Well I appreciate you sharing your experience, it's just anecdotal evidence and doesn't mean a whole lot. Some of the participants in studies had no results as well,  but others had good results. Ditto for minoxidil. 

I don't think anyone is expecting this to be a cure. I'm just expecting something more potent than minoxidil,  but it's not going to work for everyone.

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> Well I appreciate you sharing your experience, it's just anecdotal evidence and doesn't mean a whole lot. Some of the participants in studies had no results as well,  but others had good results. Ditto for minoxidil. 
> 
> I don't think anyone is expecting this to be a cure. I'm just expecting something more potent than minoxidil,  but it's not going to work for everyone.


 Latisse has a responder rate of 85%-90%. I think unless your hair loss is too aggressive, most should see an effect.

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## champpy

hey 2014, is that responder rate you mentioned on eyelashes? Or did you see a study of it helping here in other places?

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Well, it works better than minox, but it appears to have hit some snags.

info on page 16 of the PDF 

http://ir.allergan.com/phoenix.zhtml...ventID=5206702

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## Keki

Not bad at all, now we need to know what are the sides, the hair shaft sincro like minox and his shedding, the blood pressure drop and the cost, i think it will be expensive as ****

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## JayM

Plus they have said re doing a phase right? Maybe they plan to add with Seti maybe? Those results aren't bad though for 1% and without reducing pgd2/DHT. 

Good signs for the people doing group buys for pge2 for sure. Really solid.

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## Swooping

I think it's bad. It would be good 10-15 years ago though. Reason why is that it seems to be pretty much equal to minoxidil 5%. While bimatoprost 3% seems to win barely from minoxidil 5% in the expert panel review and global assesment the subject self assesment seems to favour minoxidil 5% (by almost nothing though). 

HOWEVER minoxidil has to cope with the fact that many people don't respond to minoxidil at all because of the lack of sulfotransferase. Also if that is the best picture they have to show then that's not good.

Well up to another phase 2 clinical trial to see if the "enhanced" formulation can bring better results! 

Do we have more data? Side effects and such?

SM04554 please surprise us.

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## Swooping

One question. They mention;




> *Ph 1 PK* & Ph 2b studies planned Q1 2016


 I don't understand the "Ph 1 PK" part. I assume "PK" stands for pharmacokinetics? Anyone know this?

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## Occulus

Not good - definitely not a major improvement over minoxodil, and several years away.  

Back to the drawing board.

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## Hairismylife

The result is so far so good.
Anyone knows the timeframe of it?
This regrowth from 1 month or from 1 year usage has big different meaning.

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## barfacan

Phase 2 lasted a year.

Garbage.  They still can't figure it out it seems.

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## HelloVera

'KYTH-105 for hair growth IND filed with FDA earlier this year; Allergan planning Phase 2 proof of concept study' ...Whats this? tried looking for BIM but no details. Don't help the pc crashing on links

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## Tenma

i wasnt expecting much from bimatoprost

im a bit surprised they will insist again with this "enhaced delivery" stuff though

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## dus

Well this sucks, only Sm04554 needs to fail now or under deliver to have no hope for another 3 some years.

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## doinmyheadin

> Well, it works better than minox, but it appears to have hit some snags.
> 
> info on page 16 of the PDF 
> 
> http://ir.allergan.com/phoenix.zhtml...ventID=5206702


 To say im dissapointed is an understatement.  As Swoops said its barely equal to Minox which we all know Minox is a joke. It needs to be at 2 to 3 times better to actually be slightly effective IMO.

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## Keeper

Maybe also the effect is not decreasing like with minox! 

So it can have a value, if it works like discribed and its effect is not decreasing by time

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## cocacola

As an ex-minox 5% user, i would say this is fking great and im pissed they wont release it anytime soon. I had to stop minox cuz of annoying sides and its unconvenient (2x a day oily shit). Personally i had strong result on minox which started to lose effectiveness after a year and a half, but if the panel experts conclude that the 3% is similar to minox 5% i would be the first in line to try it.

The key questions are:

1) does it last?
2) how often you have to apply
3) price
4) sides
5) when??

Also seems as they did test 3% but didn't show results from 3% only from 1%. Wish we knew more, but this also makes me believe they could go forward with it. They present this segment as a growth one with a 33% CAGR through the next 5 years, so obviously they want to tap into it.

First time since a while i am actually happy about a development in anti balding treatments. We def need more info on this study and i would try to reach to IR soon, cuz this is not enough and given the relative size of their pipeline i think they underestimate how many people would want to buy this if it has no sides and actually works in line or better than 5% minox.

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## cocacola

Also would be great to have minutes of that r&d presentation as it doesnt tell the whole story.

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## champpy

I too would give it a try, even if the effects were no better than minox. 

I do think their "enhanced" version of Bim will included Setipiprant. Bad thing about that is it will be a loooong time before that is ready, and its not even proven that Set will be of benefit. So for all we know, after the next Phase 2 we will still be in the same position as we are today, with mediocre results and them back to the drawing board. 

Its a damn shame though that this wont be produced because it would sell as an alternative to Minox. My guess is that right now its just to costly to produce on a large scale basis. 

As for sides, could the sides be any worse than what we get from Minox, fin or dut? I find it hard to believe that they would be. 

Since we now see that 1% bim does work to some degree, is it possible that we could get this from another supplier eventually or from the black market. We have the concentration, I think we just need a good vehicle now so that we know it actually penetrates the scalp

2015 has been a bust. Im going to start a new thread here soon, but I keep thinking that 2017 is going to be the year we finally get a new product as 2016 will still be all about testing these new products out

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## Occulus

> I too would give it a try, even if the effects were no better than minox.


 They won't release a bim-based product unless it is significantly better than minoxodil.  Something that is only 10% better isn't going to cut it for financial reasons.  Rogaine is pretty cheap now (it was initially $60 for three cans, now it can be found for half that price), as it's been on the market for so long.  As a new product, bimotoprost won't be cheap for years, and will have to be priced at a premium to Rogaine.  In order to justify the premium and outcompete Rogaine, it will have to be demonstrably better than Rogaine.  

I hope some people start experimenting with a 1% or even 3% solution, as that's about the only way we'll know for at least a couple years.

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## unbalding

Is that pdf the only information they gave? There isn't in enough information there to make a definitive  judgement. All we can tell is that the percentage of test subjects with a response of greater than 1 on their 3 point scale was about the same as minoxidil. How many in each group had a response of 2 or even 3? If that picture was the top responder then this is pretty much useless considering how long it will be before it gets to market. By that time we will hopefully have SM and Replicel which are both more promising than bim.

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## rdawg

This is an interesting one, seems clearly equal to Minox at lower dosage and about 10-20% better at higher dosage.

If they can improve the delivery like they are saying they may be on to something.

you guys can scoff and cry saying this isn't good enough, but this clearly shows positive efficacy, could last longer than Minox and already improves over minox at a higher percentage.

At the very least this looks like a viable treatment in 2-3 years at most, remember they are going straight to 2B with a higher dose/different delivery, once they find the perfect delivery, as they have already proven efficacy, they can push it forward straight into phase III.

there's nothing here that says failure, just have to wait a slightly longer amount of time(2-3 years instead of 1 year going straight to Phase III).

Add on top of this we will be getting a Propecia/DUT replacement soon as well in SETI as they seem to be onto something there and that goes straight to phase II.

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## rdawg

> I too would give it a try, even if the effects were no better than minox. 
> 
> I do think their "enhanced" version of Bim will included Setipiprant. Bad thing about that is it will be a loooong time before that is ready, and its not even proven that Set will be of benefit. So for all we know, after the next Phase 2 we will still be in the same position as we are today, with mediocre results and them back to the drawing board. 
> 
> Its a damn shame though that this wont be produced because it would sell as an alternative to Minox. My guess is that right now its just to costly to produce on a large scale basis. 
> 
> As for sides, could the sides be any worse than what we get from Minox, fin or dut? I find it hard to believe that they would be. 
> 
> Since we now see that 1% bim does work to some degree, is it possible that we could get this from another supplier eventually or from the black market. We ha vethe concentration, I think we just need a good vehicle now so that we know it actually penetrates the scalp


 I would think that would be extremely expensive, I recall people saying 0.1% was very costly, you'd have to be rich to afford 3%.(similar problem with CB being tested at a high dose but would be more than a HT to test on the grey market).

in regard to your first point, it seems clear they know the dose they need to aim for now and just need to perfect it(although it's annoying that this cant be tested out in a phase III, just adds an extra year) so there's nothing negative to be taken from here. Seti is promising as it's already been tested in a Phase I by over 1000 respondents, and can likely be fast tracked within 3-4 years.

I think the key to take from this is, BIM is coming out(and likely SETI as well), it's just finding the perfect dose. We're not in a 5 year range here anymore, more of a 2-3 year timeframe until we get at the very least an alternative to minox(and for many, this may work for people where minox didnt!).

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## rdawg

Only thing I'm confused on is this whole Subject self assesment vs. panel review vs. investigator global assesment.

what does that all mean exactly and how are they so different in their findings, as the latter two showed a 10-15% improvement over minox 5%

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## champpy

I wish they would have actually done a hair count difference, to see if any new hair actually grew. For all we know it might have just strenghtened his existing hair and not grown anything new

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## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I would think that would be extremely expensive, I recall people saying 0.1% was very costly, you'd have to be rich to afford 3%.(similar problem with CB being tested at a high dose but would be more than a HT to test on the grey market).
> 
> in regard to your first point, it seems clear they know the dose they need to aim for now and just need to perfect it(although it's annoying that this cant be tested out in a phase III, just adds an extra year) so there's nothing negative to be taken from here. Seti is promising as it's already been tested in a Phase I by over 1000 respondents, and can likely be fast tracked within 3-4 years.
> 
> I think the key to take from this is, BIM is coming out(and likely SETI as well), it's just finding the perfect dose. We're not in a 5 year range here anymore, more of a 2-3 year timeframe until we get at the very least an alternative to minox(and for many, this may work for people where minox didnt!).


 These are all positive takeaways, and they are logical. Not over-speculation, not overly negative or positive. The truth is that we have a few treatments that are close, and hopefully the 21st Century Cures Act will help speed things up with all three. It's very likely it will, and Samumed at least has biomarker and surrogate endpoint data to support an alternative phase 3. Not to forget that Seti has conducted 8 clinical trials, with excellent safety data. Bim has also showed effectiveness AND safety in their trials. 

imo it's a game of t-ball, fellas. It's sitting right there to be knocked out of the park. Great things for all of us will be here very soon. Hold on.

As far as the bill goes, the senator authoring the bill (Lamar Alexander) based on the one passed in congress, has previously published a few papers advocating for the FDA to speed up their trials and use biomarker and surrogate endpoint data. AND the new FDA chief, Dr. Robert Califf, installed by Obama has also written papers calling for the same.

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## Hemo

Eh, sounds to me like they're just putting it off until it can be tested/released alongside seti.

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## cocacola

Can someone illuminate me on phase 2b trial vs going into phase 3 and what could be the possible timelines to release in downside base and positive scenarios?

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## rdawg

> Can someone illuminate me on phase 2b trial vs going into phase 3 and what could be the possible timelines to release in downside base and positive scenarios?


 basically bumps it back a year, my guess is there are regulations where they cant just test a higher dose at phase III, they have to do a phase IIb all over again.

They've shown it works to an extent at 1% but 3% has shown to be even better.

timeline wise, if it went straight to phase III, we're talking Q1 2017 release, but since it's going back to phase IIb(and i find it near impossible they dont find what they are looking for this time) most likely a Q1-2 2018 release at best, Q4 2018-Q1 2019 at worst.

The positive news is they believe it works, I doubt a company would truly invest this much money and time into something they dont plan on pushing forward, they really want to maximize it's efficacy and possibly pair it with SETI. It's effective, it just needs to be perfected. Be happy we're talking 2-3 years at most!

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## Hemo

> Can someone illuminate me on phase 2b trial vs going into phase 3 and what could be the possible timelines to release in downside base and positive scenarios?


 I think it's a combination of dosage and delivery.  It sounds like the "enhanced" version is more than just a higher dosage, so they likely have to test it before moving onto phase 3.  I guess it's a good sign they're confident enough that the new formula will work/be better to put it through a trial.

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## lacazette

Regarding Bim, there's also the japanese equivalent developed by R-Tech Ueno

RK-023 (Nobiprostlan), an eyeleash drug tested for alopecia

In their pipeline from June 2015, RK-023 was about to enter phase2b and was 'open to license' ("RTU is aiming to make profit early by license or joint development")

http://rtechueno.com/en/company/busi...ness.html#rd09  (scroll to the middle for the pipeline)

so maybe it's another company now that continue the trials, or maybe they are in a joint development

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## Paul73

Hello guys,

Please, what´s your opinion on latanoprost? Do you think it could give similar results to Bim?  I know we don´t have enough info about Bim., but many local pharmacies  here in Brazil are already selling latanoprost. So at least the safety of the formula seems to be proven.

Should i give it a try? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

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## unbalding

> Hello guys,
> 
> Please, what´s your opinion on latanoprost? Do you think it could give similar results to Bim?  I know we don´t have enough info about Bim., but many local pharmacies  here in Brazil are already selling latanoprost. So at least the safety of the formula seems to be proven.
> 
> Should i give it a try? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!


 It is equivalent,  but don't waste your money.  It's .03%,  which is useless. It looks like 1% is the sweet spot, but that would be a huge waste of money for something that is no better than minoxidil.

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## Paul73

> It is equivalent,  but don't waste your money.  It's .03%,  which is useless. It looks like 1% is the sweet spot, but that would be a huge waste of money for something that is no better than minoxidil.


 Thanks for the answer, unbalding. Well, i thought that maybe latanoprost could be used together with min. So they would have a synergy effect. By the way, many places sell a foam compounding of Latanoprost and MIn.

I didn´t know the results were weaker than minoxidil. I already use minoxidil for 20 years, i was hoping that latanoprost could help to improve minoxidil results.

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## unbalding

They work by the same or similar mechanism, so I doubt using both would be of any benefit.

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## Paul73

> They work by the same or similar mechanism, so I doubt using both would be of any benefit.


 Thanks for the info. 

BTW, i just checked here the dosage. It´s 0.005% and not 0.03%.

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## Keki

> Thanks for the info. 
> 
> BTW, i just checked here the dosage. It´s 0.005% and not 0.03%.


 Latanoprost can improve minox, they are not the same, we actually don't know well how minox works at all, i've seen some pics of a doc which prescribed latanoprost to a minox user and it actually improved a little, but you have to be extremely lucky with that dosage, i think the minimum amount to hope for some hairs back are 0.1% or more, extremely expensive, we need to wait bim for something more stable in the results and mass produced

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## PinotQ

I don't recall anyone posting on the latest trial results but I saw this yesterday:  http://www.hairlosscure2020.com/category/allergan/
The first R&D presentation PDF, on page 17, describes the results as "still early but positive results".  I assume this is the latest trial as it posts results for Bimatoprost 1% & 3%.  The results are a bit inconclusive as the Subject Self Assessment for minox is higher than for either 1% or 3% bim but the Expert Panel and Global Assessment is higher for Bim....by an estimated 10% to 20% (the graph is not detailed) over minox.
Not earth shattering but it looks like they plan to move forward as further studies are planned.

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## JayM

> I don't recall anyone posting on the latest trial results but I saw this yesterday:  http://www.hairlosscure2020.com/category/allergan/
> The first R&D presentation PDF, on page 17, describes the results as "still early but positive results".  I assume this is the latest trial as it posts results for Bimatoprost 1% & 3%.  The results are a bit inconclusive as the Subject Self Assessment for minox is higher than for either 1% or 3% bim but the Expert Panel and Global Assessment is higher for Bim....by an estimated 10% to 20% (the graph is not detailed) over minox.
> Not earth shattering but it looks like they plan to move forward as further studies are planned.


 Page 58 bud.

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## PinotQ

Sorry....not sure how I missed all of that!


> Page 58 bud.

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