# Men's Hair Loss > Introduce Yourself & Share Your Story >  Sorry for all the questions

## Misery

Hi people

Apologies if posted in wrong forum..
Have put in Hair Loss/Start Topic too.


First off, sorry for all the questions... Hope you can help me though


I'm a fairly youngish, just turned 49 year old and have got to a stage in my life, where I no longer sleep, eat and breath normally anymore, just because of HAIR loss!!!?

3 long term relationships over, pretty stressed out times, and starting getting thin on the crown couple of years ago, but nothing to get bothered about as it covered over OK.

Over the last year it's been slowly getting worse, and I'm not convinced that the concealers haven't speeded things up but now I can't live without them. Even though mostly they end up on the pillow every morning now.

Saw my GP, no sympathy there and the usual 'There's a lot worse things than losing your hair' speech which I really don't need, Worse than that, I went to see a dermatologist who I paid £180GB for the privilege of being told 'When you're older you won't even care about it, use Regaine'. And that angered me loads, People just don't get it. I don't suppose it helped that he had little hair on his head, and you would maybe expect that from him, I don't know, but not for that money, Some people just really don't get the effect it can have.

In the last couple of months it's gone berserk and only really noticed just how bad this week, that it's basically falling out all over, hairline, and the area inbetween that and the crown now. I've no idea why so quick but I HAVE to do something. It's just looking thinner than I ever imagined it would get so quickly. 

OK, I'm not in my teens anymore, but my brother lost his early and he had a long time to get used to it. When it happens in your 40s, because you're used to having hair it's more of a surprise I think. 

I don't want to promote smoking in any shape or form, but I gave up 3 months ago, and I've lost more hair in this period and in super speed than ever before. Coincidence? I know they say smoking is affects the blood circulation etc...

I'm not great on any drugs, I have a sensitive stomach to most drugs, even pain killers and anti biotics so have avoided Propecia because of it, but I'm now at the stage where I've never actually been so depressed in my life, and I know it's selfish and a lousy thing to say, but you guys can relate to it. 

What do I do and what do I take first? Can I take quarter of the Propecia, or half?

I used to use Nizorelle, which was the 1% version of Nizoral, and that was good, but they stopped making it sadly, and now I only have Nizoral which I can't use anymore because it was chucking hair out like no tomorrow, Is there a milder shampoo I should be on? What's Revivogen like, or Regensomething?

What is RU and the difference between that and Regaine? 

Propecia produces more testosterone, Is that right, Isn't that something that bumps up hairloss?

Because it's speeded up so much I'm guessing you will say I should get on to both Propecia and the Regaine, but then how would I know what would work? I don't get a lot of luck with taking stuff so feel I will not be that lucky with sides, but can you please give me some advice. 

Also, I put concealers in my hair every day now, and don't wash it every day, Does that affect anything do you know and would Regaine not work if it's mixed with concealer or do I have to wash hair every day, morning and evening before applying?

My hair colour is med brown, but I've got some grey too, but why the majority of falling hairs now looks to be the grey ones?

Thanks for listening, and please give some advice to me. Anything I can do right now, to stop this or take something to get back what's gone in last few years. Plus what important vitamins do you get on first off

Just typing this now and noticing hairs on shirt, one on laptop and it's like that every day now. Can't even look in a mirror any more, and have that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach every day

One last thing, does everyone who's had a HT still HAVE to take Propecia and use Regaine

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## Tracy C

Wow that was a lot but I am going to try to touch on everything, starting with quitting smoking...

Though it may seem contradictory, giving up smoking may have induced a temporary shed as your hair follicles are being fed clean blood now.  If that is the case, the hair that shed out should start growing back in a few months or so.

The hormone that triggers hereditary hair loss is DHT, not testosterone itself.

The two proven medications that are FDA approved to stop hereditary hair loss and regrow some lost hair are Propecia (Finasteride) and Rogaine/Regaine (Minoxidil).  Between those two, Finasteride is the most important because it blocks the formation of the hormone that triggers hereditary hair loss (DHT).  Minoxidil stimulates hair that can grow back to grow back.  These medications work very well when used together along with Nizoral shampoo.  This regimen is know as "The Big 3".

Nizoral shampoo should only be used once a week.  If you can get the 1% version, you can use that up to twice per week - but not more often than that.  Over using nizoral or any other Ketoconazole shampoo can make your hair loss worsen.

The other shampoo's you have mention are just other brands that contain Ketoconazole as an active ingredient.  The amount of Ketoconazole that is in those other brands is in question and has not been legitimately confirmed.

It is a good idea to replace your regular shampoo and conditioner with sulfate free shampoo and conditioner.  If you use Nizoral only once per week as you should, your exposure to the sulfates in it is insignificant.

It is a good idea to ramp up to your doses slowly over time.  This is generally true of almost every medication.  So your thinking is on the right track there.

It takes a really long time to treat hereditary hair loss.  If you started on full doses today it typically takes a full 12 months before you will know if your treatment is doing you any good.  Obviously if you are ramping up that will take longer - but ramping up is still a very good idea.  Try not to think about it during that time.  Just move on with your life as best you can while you are treating it and hope for the best.

I do not know what kind of concealer you have been using but I do know that Dermmatch does not cause hair loss to worsen.

The safety and efficacy of RU is questionable.  There is no good data available concerning the safety and efficacy of RU.  Many young guys have jumped on the RU bandwagon - many of whom don't even have MPB.  They post "before and after" pictures that look exactly the same - so this muddy's up the available info even further.

Did that touch on everything?

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## peterpan

dude i'd be so happy if i could even keep my hair till forty dont be too sad...  nobody really judges you for losing your hair at that age, im guessing it probably makes you feel old but just look at all the young guys around here in their early twenties and some even younger who are already being confronted with their youth being gone before they even got to live it.

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## 5000

> dude i'd be so happy if i could even keep my hair till forty dont be too sad...  nobody really judges you for losing your hair at that age, im guessing it probably makes you feel old but just look at all the young guys around here in their early twenties and some even younger who are already being confronted with their youth being gone before they even got to live it.


  :Frown:  yea....

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## Exodus

It's not really 'gone' though is it. You can still retain your youth with or without hair...

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## Morbo

> OK, I'm not in my teens anymore, but my brother lost his early and he had a long time to get used to it. When it happens in your 40s, because you're used to having hair it's more of a surprise I think.


 That's not only total bollocks, having lost my hair mid 20's and a lot of other guys on here in their teenage years, I kinda felt insulted by that one.
Like losing your hair young, means you're not used to having it all previous years of your life. Like losing your hair at 50 is more unexpected than in your teenage years/20's?
75 &#37; of the people on these fora would give their right hand to keep their hair until they are 50 and hairloss is deemed a natural way of life.

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## ThinningB420

I agree with Morbo. Losing your hair in your 40s is expected. Losing your hair in your teens, early, or mid twenties stands out and is shocking because you are in a small minority.

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## drybone

Hey . 

Dont be sorry. The only stupid question is the one we dont ask.  

I am 46 years old and just opted for my first hair transplant. 

Post up some photos of your  head so we can see what is going on for you dude. 

There are folks on here who are experts who can tell you what your next move is. 

 :Smile:

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## jman91

> That's not only total bollocks, having lost my hair mid 20's and a lot of other guys on here in their teenage years, I kinda felt insulted by that one.
> Like losing your hair young, means you're not used to having it all previous years of your life. Like losing your hair at 50 is more unexpected than in your teenage years/20's?
> 75 &#37; of the people on these fora would give their right hand to keep their hair until they are 50 and hairloss is deemed a natural way of life.


 im only 22 and already NW2.5 diffuse thinner. I see exactly what your saying here and I too think that all these guys in the late 30's and 40's etc posting about hairloss are a bit strange as surely by then they've at least had the years to go out, party, get laid be young find girlfriends/wives with no hair loss issues. They can now go bald gracefully with no one really caring or making jokes as it's normal to lose hair by that age. I, like many on here am going to have to go through my young years bald, sticking out like a sore thumb. Like many others, I have to put up with peoples fascination with my receding hairline as it is not normal to lose hair this young. I'm not saying older guys anxiety's about hairloss aren't real, because they obviously are very real, but they really don't have as much to worry about, they've had their hair days.

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## drybone

I dont recall the guy trying to insult anyone. He came here because he is worried about his hair loss. Just like everyone else. 

To him, its devastating. Thats all we need to know. We dont need to compare it to other guys losing their hair earlier or later. Its not about them. 

This case is about this guy. Lets try to help him.

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## inspects

> Saw my GP, no sympathy there and the usual 'There's a lot worse things than losing your hair' speech which I really don't need, Worse than that, I went to see a dermatologist who I paid £180GB for the privilege of being told 'When you're older you won't even care about it, use Regaine'. And that angered me loads, People just don't get it. I don't suppose it helped that he had little hair on his head, and you would maybe expect that from him, I don't know, but not for that money, Some people just really don't get the effect it can have.


 Misery,

Why don't you get a transplant?

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## mpb47

We are close to the same age and I agree it sucks to start losing hair so late in the game. People don't believe it can still be embarrassing at 40+ but it is.

Hairloss can be fast or slow or in my case mostly slow but at times fast. It sounds like you are in the fast mode at the moment and when I was at that point, minox was not enough as it also took propecia to stop and reverse it.

I would start at a low dosage and gradually ramp up.

Just remember it can take a long time to work. In my case it took 9 months before I saw it working in the crown.  There is no reason to give up just because you are 40+ like some people would want you to do. Medicine really works but you must be patient. For the past several generations, all the men on my mothers side have lost their hair in the same pattern. And I was losing my hair  just like them , UNTIL I went on meds. My crown pattern was looking just like my uncles till I went on meds.  The funny thing is his daughter is Always saying something about my hair...like she suspects I must be on something to still have it. Yesterday was no exception. As I was leaving Christmas eve dinner she said how good my hair looked and how I was lucky to have so much hair for a guy my age. Like its normal to be bald or something..no thanks..will keep it as long as I can. Good luck and remember to keep at it and not give up if things don't improve right away...
Happy holidays!

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## john2399

Dam these 40+ year olds that come on here miserable about hairloss piss me off. I started losing it at 16 years old. I don't understand what is so bad when you lose your hair around 40 years old, when everyone around that age is losing their hair to some degree. Life ain't hard for a balding 40 year old.

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## mpb47

> Dam these 40+ year olds that come on here miserable about hairloss piss me off. I started losing it at 16 years old. I don't understand what is so bad when you lose your hair around 40 years old, when everyone around that age is losing their hair to some degree. Life ain't hard for a balding 40 year old.


 You sound like my cousin. Why do you think it is normal/ok to bald at 40?

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## Tracy C

> Why do you think it is normal/ok to bald at 40?


 Sadly, it is normal for males to have lost hair by the age of 40.  What is even more sad is these young guys who think they are balding in their teens and twenties when in all reality most of them only have the natural and normal adult mature male hair line going on.  What is even more sad than that is the fact that they guys convince each other that there is no such thing as the natural and normal adult mature male hair line.  Then they waist their lives away worrying about it.  So very sad.

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## Tracy C

> Dam these 40+ year olds that come on here miserable about hairloss piss me off.


 This should not tick you off.  MPB and FPB hurts.  It does not matter how old you are - it still hurts.  Shame on you.

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## Exodus

Tracy I really do admire your confidence and down-to-earth approach when it comes to baldness. You'e fought your own personal battle and still come across as a clear headed person to seek advice from. 

I do think there is a lot of worry and people can't be blamed for that (look at my first post), but she's right, there does have to be a point when you draw the line and carry on.

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## Misery

Thanks for all your replies, I didn't think being depressed in your 40s would piss off people losing it in their 20s, and for you to say you'd be happy to lose it by then and basically saying... 'you've had your life', Let's see how you feel when you get there and if you'll be happy to lose it. I guarantee you won't.

For you guys, and lady, who have responded and stuck up for me on this thread I salute you, and appreciate it. Depression because of hair loss is crappy, despite your age, or sex. It hurts at any age... Obviously I'm not talking pensionable age here but none of us know how we will feel when we get to that age either. 

*john2399,* why you should be pissed off and think it's only about your age is beyond me. FYI, you're wrong, I unfortunately am surrounded by people of my age and older who have loads of thick hair, and when I see them and they think it's hilarious to take the piss out of me losing mine, it hurts, even if I TRY to pretend it doesn't in front of them, behind closed doors is another story and It really does.

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## Jcm800

I hear you Misery - i've got an older bro who's 48 - hasn't lost a single hair from his head - loves calling me 'follically challenged' piss's me off deeply, hairloss hurts whatever age you are, if you care about your appearance.

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## Misery

> Wow that was a lot but I am going to try to touch on everything, starting with quitting smoking...
> 
> Though it may seem contradictory, giving up smoking may have induced a temporary shed as your hair follicles are being fed clean blood now.  If that is the case, the hair that shed out should start growing back in a few months or so.
> 
> The hormone that triggers hereditary hair loss is DHT, not testosterone itself.
> 
> The two proven medications that are FDA approved to stop hereditary hair loss and regrow some lost hair are Propecia (Finasteride) and Rogaine/Regaine (Minoxidil).  Between those two, Finasteride is the most important because it blocks the formation of the hormone that triggers hereditary hair loss (DHT).  Minoxidil stimulates hair that can grow back to grow back.  These medications work very well when used together along with Nizoral shampoo.  This regimen is know as "The Big 3".
> 
> Nizoral shampoo should only be used once a week.  If you can get the 1% version, you can use that up to twice per week - but not more often than that.  Over using nizoral or any other Ketoconazole shampoo can make your hair loss worsen.
> ...


 Thanks for this, appreciate the time to respond, Dermmatch and Nanogen. I don't know for sure, but it does seem to have maybe speeded it up...
I used to be on the 1% but they discontinued making it for some reason? And it was better for me I believe, at that time





> Hey . 
> 
> Dont be sorry. The only stupid question is the one we dont ask.  
> 
> I am 46 years old and just opted for my first hair transplant. 
> 
> Post up some photos of your  head so we can see what is going on for you dude. 
> 
> There are folks on here who are experts who can tell you what your next move is.


 Thanks




> I dont recall the guy trying to insult anyone. He came here because he is worried about his hair loss. Just like everyone else. 
> 
> To him, its devastating. Thats all we need to know. We dont need to compare it to other guys losing their hair earlier or later. Its not about them. 
> 
> This case is about this guy. Lets try to help him.


 Thank you again!




> We are close to the same age and I agree it sucks to start losing hair so late in the game. People don't believe it can still be embarrassing at 40+ but it is.
> 
> Hairloss can be fast or slow or in my case mostly slow but at times fast. It sounds like you are in the fast mode at the moment and when I was at that point, minox was not enough as it also took propecia to stop and reverse it.
> 
> I would start at a low dosage and gradually ramp up.
> 
> Just remember it can take a long time to work. In my case it took 9 months before I saw it working in the crown.  There is no reason to give up just because you are 40+ like some people would want you to do. Medicine really works but you must be patient. For the past several generations, all the men on my mothers side have lost their hair in the same pattern. And I was losing my hair  just like them , UNTIL I went on meds. My crown pattern was looking just like my uncles till I went on meds.  The funny thing is his daughter is Always saying something about my hair...like she suspects I must be on something to still have it. Yesterday was no exception. As I was leaving Christmas eve dinner she said how good my hair looked and how I was lucky to have so much hair for a guy my age. Like its normal to be bald or something..no thanks..will keep it as long as I can. Good luck and remember to keep at it and not give up if things don't improve right away...
> Happy holidays!


 Thank you, what dosage are you on now, and start at, do you still do Minox?

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## Misery

> I hear you Misery - i've got an older bro who's 48 - hasn't lost a single hair from his head - loves calling me 'follically challenged' piss's me off deeply, hairloss hurts whatever age you are, if you care about your appearance.


 Thanks, I feel for you. Even when I had a FULL head, in my 20s, I would never have joined in with other ignorant people when they mocked anyone who was losing their hair. You never know when it will strike, and its incredibly insensitive to anyone of any age

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## mpb47

> Sadly, it is normal for males to have lost hair by the age of 40.  What is even more sad is these young guys who think they are balding in their teens and twenties when in all reality most of them only have the natural and normal adult mature male hair line going on.  What is even more sad than that is the fact that they guys convince each other that there is no such thing as the natural and normal adult mature male hair line.  Then they waist their lives away worrying about it.  So very sad.


 I agree that it's starts to get more and more common @ 40+ but not sure I would go so far as to say it's normal.

As far as the mature hair thing, the problem is no one knows about it unless you read medical literature.  My high school biology textbook talked about mpb but never about that. Only learned about it years later by reading lit at a medical library on campus.

Seems like some of the people here still don't believe it and then there is another group that goes to extreme measures to stop it- yes I have read that female hormones promote hairgrowth up front/temple areas but I sure wouldn't go that far to get my 15year old hair back!

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## Tracy C

> I agree that it's starts to get more and more common @ 40+ but not sure I would go so far as to say it's normal.


 I suppose that depends on how you define normal.  Haha  Most men I see who are over 40 have lost some hair.  To me that defines the norm.  From what I can see, the 30's is when it becomes more common, 40's is when it becomes normal and 50's is when it becomes typical.  Very few males can escape it without taking medication to prevent it.






> As far as the mature hair thing, the problem is no one knows about it unless you read medical literature.  My high school biology textbook talked about mpb but never about that. Only learned about it years later by reading lit at a medical library on campus.


 That's probably because the natural and normal adult mature male hair line is not MPB.  Therefore it makes sense that it might not be discussed during discussions about MPB.  The male hair line is a normal part of virilization - just like a deeper voice, bigger hands, bigger feet, body hair and facial hair..






> Seems like some of the people here still don't believe it and then there is another group that goes to extreme measures to stop it- yes I have read that female hormones promote hairgrowth up front/temple areas but I sure wouldn't go that far to get my 15year old hair back!


 They kind of don't have a choice - because it is as obvious as the sky is blue.  The problem is they refuse to accept it for whatever reason - and yes they are taking extreme measures to prevent it that will feminize their bodies.  Whether they believe that or not, it will happen in time.

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## mpb47

> I suppose that depends on how you define normal.  Haha  Most men I see who are over 40 have lost some hair.  To me that defines the norm.  From what I can see, the 30's is when it becomes more common, 40's is when it becomes normal and 50's is when it becomes typical.  Very few males can escape it without taking medication to prevent it.


 Just curious as to what you define as normal loss (as in 40's)...do you mean just minor loss in front or more advanced like a spot developing in the back?





> That's probably because the natural and normal adult mature male hair line is not MPB.  Therefore it makes sense that it might not be discussed during discussions about MPB.  The male hair line is a normal part of virilization - just like a deeper voice, bigger hands, bigger feet, body hair and facial hair..


 If people knew it was normal, they would not freq out as much and think they will be bald in 5-10 years...so yea it should be discussed. Even mpb itself was discussed in my biology class though many did not believe our teacher, which kinda ticked her off. But hey when you are a teenager you think you are invincible and baldling only happened to old sick helpless people..least that is what our class thought back then.





> They kind of don't have a choice - because it is as obvious as the sky is blue.  The problem is they refuse to accept it for whatever reason - and yes they are taking extreme measures to prevent it that will feminize their bodies.  Whether they believe that or not, it will happen in time.


 Again if no one tells you about it..you think it is mpb so education or lack of is the problem. Hey I tried to fight it too as information was not as freeflowing in the pre internet age.

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## drybone

This has given me a great idea.

I will go get all the pics I got from my late teens, twenties , thirties and finally 40s . 

Then at age 46 putting my foot down and getting a hair transplant. 

I do feel fortunate to have kept my hair so long compared to other guys who lost it at age 20, but nonetheless we all have to come to a basic choice. 

Get busy living 

Or get busy dying. 

After 6 years of 'mid life crisis' confusion, I have come out of it. I have decided that growing old may be inevitable, but looking and feeling old is optional. I am going to choose to do what I can to be healthy and happy.  :Smile:

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## Tracy C

> Just curious as to what you define as normal loss (as in 40's)...do you mean just minor loss in front or more advanced like a spot developing in the back?


 What I am seeing in most men in their 40's is a bit more loss in the temples than the natural and normal adult mature male hair line - and obvious thinning in the vertex over a larger area.  For men in their 50's, I see a large well defined bald spot on the vertex.






> If people knew it was normal, they would not freq out as much and think they will be bald in 5-10 years...so yea it should be discussed.


 I agree.  We try to inform young guys about it here, but these guys attack us like Nazi's at a book burning party.

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## mpb47

> What I am seeing in most men in their 40's is a bit more loss in the temples than the natural and normal adult mature male hair line - and obvious thinning in the vertex over a larger area.


 Darn..that is a pretty good guess...and would pretty much would describe me without meds. And even with them still look like that first thing in the morning before washing/combing.





> I agree.  We try to inform young guys about it here, but these guys attack us like Nazi's at a book burning party.


 Maybe here on this site but on other sites I see people talking about it and knowing it is normal. Not just guys but girls too..

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## Misery

Everyone thinks they suffer alone, even when coming on to boards like this, and the truth of the matter is that we know it's a hugely common thing to go through, at any age. I feel for each and every one who goes through this, because at the end of the day, it's horrible. My point being, wrongly worded, obviously, is that when some suffer early on, they accept it, and i know a lot of people who look better without hair, I'm not one of those people. But I also know that there are 20 year olds out there hating their life as much as some of us, because of one thing. Losing their hair.... It was a security blanket. My hair has fallen out at a rate of knots, it hasn't been gradual, and the docs and derms were useless beyond useless! 

I'm ashamed to admit, that i don't even turn a light on in the bathroom anymore when I go to bed, I clean my teeth in the dark, I can't stand to look at myself, Pathetic? Probably... but I'm not wanting to be like that. It makes me physically sick to look at myself now I'm patchy and have lost crown and appears to be going all over from front to back too. Some professors and shrinks out there will give me all the underlying bollox about it being a deeper problem, and that the hair is only a part of it. I can assure one and all, that if i had my hair back to what it was all those years ago, I would be far more confident, not stay in every day of my life and fortunately now work from home so don't have to see anyone. 

My ex once saw one of her exs when we were out shopping, and he had lost a lot of his hair. Her reaction, which actually sickened me was 'Hah, look he's lost his hair, great!'. I suppose that kind of stuck with me too, that if she now saw me, she'd say the same thing. I'm not saying she's typical of women because she wasn't. She wasn't pleasant and when I started thinning at back, she made some shitty comments to me too and to her mates just to bash me down a bit more.

But, I digress.... Yes, it's sad and pathetic, but that's my life now, so you see kids.... it's not native to you, but us grown ups can be sad and pissed off too.

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## mpb47

> Everyone thinks they suffer alone, even when coming on to boards like this, and the truth of the matter is that we know it's a hugely common thing to go through, at any age. I feel for each and every one who goes through this, because at the end of the day, it's horrible. My point being, wrongly worded, obviously, is that when some suffer early on, they accept it, and i know a lot of people who look better without hair, I'm not one of those people. But I also know that there are 20 year olds out there hating their life as much as some of us, because of one thing. Losing their hair.... It was a security blanket. My hair has fallen out at a rate of knots, it hasn't been gradual, and the docs and derms were useless beyond useless! 
> 
> I'm ashamed to admit, that i don't even turn a light on in the bathroom anymore when I go to bed, I clean my teeth in the dark, I can't stand to look at myself, Pathetic? Probably... but I'm not wanting to be like that. It makes me physically sick to look at myself now I'm patchy and have lost crown and appears to be going all over from front to back too. Some professors and shrinks out there will give me all the underlying bollox about it being a deeper problem, and that the hair is only a part of it. I can assure one and all, that if i had my hair back to what it was all those years ago, I would be far more confident, not stay in every day of my life and fortunately now work from home so don't have to see anyone. 
> 
> My ex once saw one of her exs when we were out shopping, and he had lost a lot of his hair. Her reaction, which actually sickened me was 'Hah, look he's lost his hair, great!'. I suppose that kind of stuck with me too, that if she now saw me, she'd say the same thing. I'm not saying she's typical of women because she wasn't. She wasn't pleasant and when I started thinning at back, she made some shitty comments to me too and to her mates just to bash me down a bit more.
> 
> But, I digress.... Yes, it's sad and pathetic, but that's my life now, so you see kids.... it's not native to you, but us grown ups can be sad and pissed off too.


 One thing I was told many years ago by a 78-80 year old man. You will never like it but it will be easier to deal with the older you get. I still hate it but not as much as I did when I was younger so I think what he said was true.

And don't worry about the ex issue...this took me a long time to figure out, but sometimes that is their way of empowerment. I used to fall for it too till I figured out the reason behind it.

And 2 long time (30+) years female friends did it for the most crazy reasons of all....
Tracy often talks about guys trying to fight natural recession and how it is normal etc. But a few girls have hangups about natural things too.

Friend #1 has always said how mpb is normal/natural and guys should not waste time trying to fight it as it is not unattractive with the only exception being the combover. She went on about how her brother freqed out when he started receding and hoped I would not be like him. She worked for a Dr's office and knew about propecia when it was still called proscar. That is how I first learned about it. But anyway while she was telling me not to fight mpb when it came, at the same time was convinced she was a fat blob and was saving up 10--15K to have her thighs /boobs lipoed.  She is hot yet thinks she is really fat and admitted to excercising to the point of exhaustion when she was younger to try to avoid getting fat.

Friend # 2 issue is being a tomboy even at 35+  Even wore straps as a kid  to keep her boobs from growing. To her , having boobs is the equivalent to us having mpb as crazy as that sounds. Has brought up my hair several times saying a spot in the back would be the next thing to happen and has pointed out several other guy friends when they first started balding. One guy made the mistake of saying she needed a bra and that sent her off the deep end for months....  Will most likely see her tonight and probably won't say a word about hair as long as noone mentions her boobs  :Smile: 


So even people that appear fine can have hangups too

----------


## Misery

I don't think I'm settled enough or happy enough for the not bothering thing to kick in yet, and it's harder when you find yourself single in the latter part of 40, probably after being in relationships for all those years.

But... I do get your point, and in particular the second one, on an opposite scale. This same girl I mentioned was paranoid beyond paranoid about her flat chest, but I told her it really didn't bother me at all, and it really didn't, at all, and thinking about this now, she could pad-out till her hearts content, and it was on the inside, if you get my drift, the hair thing is more in your face, in every day life than that. I'm not blaming her for my paranoia, although her behaviour to some poor b'stard losing his hair, probably didn't help the way I felt and thought. But I would never have dreamed of making comment about her hang ups, or weaknesses, and yet she used mine against me.

And.. here's another thing to think about, here in the UK, we have many cases of women getting breast enlargement on the NHS because they're so depressed by their small busts, but if a guy has a hang up about his baldness it doesn't work the same way. Any idea why? Not the ladies fault of course, but it does seem to sway in their favour a tad more, like our vanity doesn't count?

----------


## Jcm800

Im single,  early 40's, think that's a big reason I worry about my fading looks. Youngsters think us older guys are married and settled down. Not always the case.

----------


## mpb47

> I don't think I'm settled enough or happy enough for the not bothering thing to kick in yet, and it's harder when you find yourself single in the latter part of 40, probably after being in relationships for all those years.


 Well I am in the same boat as you...thought I had finally found the one this summer and it may still work out but at this point the chances are getting slimmer. And yes it still bothers me..sometimes really bad, but not nearly as much as say 10 years ago when it started rather suddenly in the back. 




> But... I do get your point, and in particular the second one, on an opposite scale. This same girl I mentioned was paranoid beyond paranoid about her flat chest, but I told her it really didn't bother me at all, and it really didn't, at all, and thinking about this now, she could pad-out till her hearts content, and it was on the inside, if you get my drift, the hair thing is more in your face, in every day life than that. I'm not blaming her for my paranoia, although her behaviour to some poor b'stard losing his hair, probably didn't help the way I felt and thought. But I would never have dreamed of making comment about her hang ups, or weaknesses, and yet she used mine against me.


 In my experiences when women say things about mpb and say it in a mean hatefully way they usually have their own problems. One in college would make fun of guys in our class and no one liked her for it. ..she was also very fat and probably was why she did it. Another one was to put it nicely, very unattractive. 

 But to be clear my 2 friends mentioned in my last post are not like that at all...  Friend #1 has never said anything negative about mpb..in fact  she actually likes it most likely do to her dad being totally bald by 40.
She was kinda like what you refer to as the double standard though. While she thought mpb was normal and natural , she didn't think men should try and fight it as it was sorta vain and unstoppable anyway.  Yet she was super attractive-very very hot but thought she was a fat blob and was saving up for fat removal surgery.

Friend #2 would only kid a few of us that were friends with her. 

The one exception was the guy who gave her a hard time about needing a bra.
But he was/is a jerk and knew she had a hangup about it and said it in a mean way.




> And.. here's another thing to think about, here in the UK, we have many cases of women getting breast enlargement on the NHS because they're so depressed by their small busts, but if a guy has a hang up about his baldness it doesn't work the same way. Any idea why? Not the ladies fault of course, but it does seem to sway in their favour a tad more, like our vanity doesn't count?


 I think some women consider it vain and think it is a turnoff, but others don't mind. And then there is the other extreme... One of my friend's girlfriend thinks propecia is 100% effective and was upset that he wouldn't take it or anything else. She even told me to take it so I would never end up like him...

----------


## Misery

> Im single,  early 40's, think that's a big reason I worry about my fading looks. Youngsters think us older guys are married and settled down. Not always the case.


 
I wish I had have got to care less as i got older, In some ways I'm almost glad I'm not with any of my exs and they didn't get to see this... 

Without over dramatising this shitty problem, It really is my _Kryptonite_, sad as that may sound!!





> Well I am in the same boat as you...thought I had finally found the one this summer and it may still work out but at this point the chances are getting slimmer. And yes it still bothers me..sometimes really bad, but not nearly as much as say 10 years ago when it started rather suddenly in the back. 
> 
> In my experiences when women say things about mpb and say it in a mean hatefully way they usually have their own problems. One in college would make fun of guys in our class and no one liked her for it. ..she was also very fat and probably was why she did it. Another one was to put it nicely, very unattractive. 
> 
>  But to be clear my 2 friends mentioned in my last post are not like that at all...  Friend #1 has never said anything negative about mpb..in fact  she actually likes it most likely do to her dad being totally bald by 40.
> She was kinda like what you refer to as the double standard though. While she thought mpb was normal and natural , she didn't think men should try and fight it as it was sorta vain and unstoppable anyway.  Yet she was super attractive-very very hot but thought she was a fat blob and was saving up for fat removal surgery.
> 
> Friend #2 would only kid a few of us that were friends with her. 
> 
> ...


 It's like what's been discussed on hair forums all over, when we use concealers... the argument is always, 'women use make up' etc... I don't know if I see that as the same thing, well I don't actually, but many guys use that argument. I actually dislike myself for using that stuff if I was totally honest. 

I'm really not understanding why the fallout rate of the hair was fairly gradual all over, and now it's coming out so quickly, are there ever any reasons for that?

----------


## Tracy C

> It's like what's been discussed on hair forums all over, when we use concealers... the argument is always, 'women use make up' etc... I don't know if I see that as the same thing, well I don't actually, but many guys use that argument.


 It is the same thing.  I only wear a little eye make up and I do so because I want to look my best.  I wear Dermmatch in my hair for that exact same reason.  There is nothing wrong with trying to look your best if it helps you feel better about yourself.






> I'm really not understanding why the fallout rate of the hair was fairly gradual all over, and now it's coming out so quickly, are there ever any reasons for that?


 Maybe, maybe not.  You may have periods of rapid loss and other periods of slowly shedding away.  During the first two years of treating my hair loss, I went through three separate periods of shedding.  Each time my hair grew back a little thicker than it was before the shed.

Stressful situations also make me shed.  My mother and I had a spat in mid October.  I was so upset about it that I was shedding hair by the handful for the next couple of days afterwards.  Mom and I made up a couple of weeks later and my hair is filling back in already.  When I lost my job a year ago, I shed out a bunch of hair - but it has since grown back.  I still haven't found a new job - but the anxiety and depression from loosing my job had subsided.

----------


## mpb47

> It's like what's been discussed on hair forums all over, when we use concealers... the argument is always, 'women use make up' etc... I don't know if I see that as the same thing, well I don't actually, but many guys use that argument. I actually dislike myself for using that stuff if I was totally honest.


 Agree and disagree at the same time. As much as I like my friend, she really didn't have the right to imply I would be vain like her brother for wanting to use meds, esp since she wanted surgery for a problem that did not even exist.  At the same time, part of me has hang ups about using them. Like yea a guess I am a bit vain....but still have the right to be if that makes sense?




> i'm really not understanding why the fallout rate of the hair was fairly gradual all over, and now it's coming out so quickly, are there ever any reasons for that?


 As you saw in my previous post mine did the same thing in my late 30's. Don't know why, just know that it happens to some guys. One of the Dr's on this site has talked about it and I think basically said it is just one variation of mpb. I have never met anyone else on this site that has gone through this slow, then fast, then slow again loss but here is a thread on another site that has a couple of guys talking about it:

http://ask.metafilter.com/101166/Wha...d-thinning-and

The good news is it will sometimes, but not always slow down or even completely stop- for a while at least. Mine was fast for about 5=6 years then slowed way down even when I went off of everything. Now 6-7 years later it has started up again. The longest it ever stopped/greatly slowed down for was about 9-10 years fwiw.

So if you do have this roller coaster type of loss , it actually may be a good thing as far as keeping your hair longer. I have met guys who had much higher NW's than me despite the fact my hairline was receding long before they were even born.

----------


## Misery

> It is the same thing.  I only wear a little eye make up and I do so because I want to look my best.  I wear Dermmatch in my hair for that exact same reason.  There is nothing wrong with trying to look your best if it helps you feel better about yourself.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not.  You may have periods of rapid loss and other periods of slowly shedding away.  During the first two years of treating my hair loss, I went through three separate periods of shedding.  Each time my hair grew back a little thicker than it was before the shed.
> 
> Stressful situations also make me shed.  My mother and I had a spat in mid October.  I was so upset about it that I was shedding hair by the handful for the next couple of days afterwards.  Mom and I made up a couple of weeks later and my hair is filling back in already.  When I lost my job a year ago, I shed out a bunch of hair - but it has since grown back.  I still haven't found a new job - but the anxiety and depression from loosing my job had subsided.


 Thanks for that Tracy. I appreciate you saying that, and I know I shouldn't care, but sometimes I hate myself for having to put the dermmatch and nanogen on, Men are supposed to be strong and not care blah blah... and it's now a lot longer job, and doesn't work as much because I'm patchy all over now, as opposed to just at back. It's worked it's way to the front and those products are not as good as they once were. 

Stress is unavoidable for me at the moment, and also the hair thing depresses so much it keeps me awake every night so it's a vicious circle.




> Agree and disagree at the same time. As much as I like my friend, she really didn't have the right to imply I would be vain like her brother for wanting to use meds, esp since she wanted surgery for a problem that did not even exist.  At the same time, part of me has hang ups about using them. Like yea a guess I am a bit vain....but still have the right to be if that makes sense?
> 
> As you saw in my previous post mine did the same thing in my late 30's. Don't know why, just know that it happens to some guys. One of the Dr's on this site has talked about it and I think basically said it is just one variation of mpb. I have never met anyone else on this site that has gone through this slow, then fast, then slow again loss but here is a thread on another site that has a couple of guys talking about it:
> 
> http://ask.metafilter.com/101166/Wha...d-thinning-and
> 
> The good news is it will sometimes, but not always slow down or even completely stop- for a while at least. Mine was fast for about 5=6 years then slowed way down even when I went off of everything. Now 6-7 years later it has started up again. The longest it ever stopped/greatly slowed down for was about 9-10 years fwiw.
> 
> So if you do have this roller coaster type of loss , it actually may be a good thing as far as keeping your hair longer. I have met guys who had much higher NW's than me despite the fact my hairline was receding long before they were even born.


 I am appalled at the way it can change in just one week to the next, that's why I wondered whether the derm was making it fall out quicker. I dread washing the hair and seeing it without the concealers, that's a depressing hour... and I hate those times, which is why I was asking about maybe only using the Minox every other day, so I don't have to wash it every day as I'm guessing that's not such a great idea either

----------


## Tracy C

> ...which is why I was asking about maybe only using the Minox every other day, so I don't have to wash it every day as I'm guessing that's not such a great idea either


 I only wash my hair every other night now that the weather has gone cold.  I also only use Dermmatch and nothing else.  On the nights that I do not wash my hair, I still apply liquid Minoxidil in the evening.  I just don't apply my morning dose the next day.  My cold weather schedule goes like this:

I wash and condition during my evening shower then I give myself a laser treatment with my laser comb.  I then apply liquid Minoxidil.  The following morning I apply Rogaine foam after my morning shower while my hair is towel dry damp.  I give that a few minutes to absorb then I apply Dermmatch while my hair is still a little damp and style my hair for the day.  That night I won't wash my hair but I will still apply liquid Minoxidil.  By morning you cannot tell I have liquid Minoxidil on my scalp.  I might need to add a little more Dermmatch in the morning to touch it up a bit but I do not apply my morning dose of Rogaine foam that day.  So, I am applying liquid Minoxidil every night but I am only washing my hair, applying Rogaine foam and Dermmatch every other day.

I realize that might sound kind of confusing.  If you need to ask me to try to explain it again I will try to do better.

Just to make it a tad more confusing, I alternate between sulfate free shampoo/conditioner and Nizoral A-D with my regular sulfate free conditioner.

When the weather is warm enough for me to exercise outside, I typically need to wash and condition my hair almost every day.

----------


## ravegrover

> It's like what's been discussed on hair forums all over, when we use concealers... the argument is always, 'women use make up' etc... I don't know if I see that as the same thing, well I don't actually, but many guys use that argument. I actually dislike myself for using that stuff if I was totally honest.


 As a former user of concealers, I can say that this argument has zero merit. Men don't use makeup, period. Use of concealers by men is not accepted by any sane society or group of people. It is much much better to be bald or balding. Sadly, a man wearing concealer is nothing but a JOKE

----------


## Misery

> I only wash my hair every other night now that the weather has gone cold.  I also only use Dermmatch and nothing else.  On the nights that I do not wash my hair, I still apply liquid Minoxidil in the evening.  I just don't apply my morning dose the next day.  My cold weather schedule goes like this:
> 
> I wash and condition during my evening shower then I give myself a laser treatment with my laser comb.  I then apply liquid Minoxidil.  The following morning I apply Rogaine foam after my morning shower while my hair is towel dry damp.  I give that a few minutes to absorb then I apply Dermmatch while my hair is still a little damp and style my hair for the day.  That night I won't wash my hair but I will still apply liquid Minoxidil.  By morning you cannot tell I have liquid Minoxidil on my scalp.  I might need to add a little more Dermmatch in the morning to touch it up a bit but I do not apply my morning dose of Rogaine foam that day.  So, I am applying liquid Minoxidil every night but I am only washing my hair, applying Rogaine foam and Dermmatch every other day.
> 
> I realize that might sound kind of confusing.  If you need to ask me to try to explain it again I will try to do better.
> 
> Just to make it a tad more confusing, I alternate between sulfate free shampoo/conditioner and Nizoral A-D with my regular sulfate free conditioner.
> 
> When the weather is warm enough for me to exercise outside, I typically need to wash and condition my hair almost every day.


 
Thank you, I'm still trying to compute this... so you don't or do actually hit the derm with the Minox, or Rogaine... so you use Rogaine liquid and Foam but only use the liquid when you've got Derm on. I think it will be too tricky if I use that with dermm and the fibres though. I still think I'll need to wash every time I apply? If you don't have the fibres I'm sure it's OK, but I really have to use both.
Which other shampoo do you use, the Thin To Thick is sulfate free?








> As a former user of concealers, I can say that this argument has zero merit. Men don't use makeup, period. Use of concealers by men is not accepted by any sane society or group of people. It is much much better to be bald or balding. Sadly, a man wearing concealer is nothing but a JOKE


 Thanks, you've cheered me up no end with that fantastic piece of advice. To say it's better to be bald or balding contradicts why you'd actually be on a site like this, doesn't it?

----------


## ravegrover

It is better to be bald, than to paint ones scalp. You may not appreciate my advise right now, I understand.

----------


## lalala

Misery, if you are this depressed about hair loss then do something about it. After you get on fin and minox, start some consults with the best HT surgeons in the world, pick one, and schedule a hair transplant. The good news is that you are older so it will be easier for them to have a decent idea of where your hair loss might go. This will help in designing a realistic hairline and giving you adequate coverage to thicken things up.

You mentioned that you work from home. This is a HUGE advantage in that you can hide out during the "ugly duckling" period after the surgery. 

Guys like you have a much bigger advantage than a 20 year old who is seeing hair loss. So do something about it!

Oh, and to all the kids posting in this thread -- stay out of it!! It's not your thread. Stop being selfish and go make your own thread!

----------


## mpb47

> I am appalled at the way it can change in just one week to the next, that's why I wondered whether the derm was making it fall out quicker. I dread washing the hair and seeing it without the concealers, that's a depressing hour... and I hate those times, which is why I was asking about maybe only using the Minox every other day, so I don't have to wash it every day as I'm guessing that's not such a great idea either


 Ok I think I misunderstood what you were meaning. The link I sent was about how mpb can start and stop/slow, then start again  over time. That is what those guys were talking about and what has happened to me.  If there is such a thing as a good type of mpb that is probably it because it buys you time even without meds.

But if you mean it's starting/stopping like over weeks or months, that is shedding and is very common and happens to just about everyone using meds..I really don't know what it is, but to me it seems to be like a tug of war between your mpb and your meds. I took pics and you could see my crown expand and shrink back and forth.

----------


## Misery

> It is better to be bald, than to paint ones scalp. You may not appreciate my advise right now, I understand.


 I don't get why you feel like that on here though. Wouldn't you think 99% of people are on here because they're wanting to hide their thinning/baldness? Have you had a bad experience with it, or are you like me, finding it harder to use the more the hair has gone




> Misery, if you are this depressed about hair loss then do something about it. After you get on fin and minox, start some consults with the best HT surgeons in the world, pick one, and schedule a hair transplant. The good news is that you are older so it will be easier for them to have a decent idea of where your hair loss might go. This will help in designing a realistic hairline and giving you adequate coverage to thicken things up.
> 
> You mentioned that you work from home. This is a HUGE advantage in that you can hide out during the "ugly duckling" period after the surgery. 
> 
> Guys like you have a much bigger advantage than a 20 year old who is seeing hair loss. So do something about it!
> 
> Oh, and to all the kids posting in this thread -- stay out of it!! It's not your thread. Stop being selfish and go make your own thread!


 Thanks for that, I have problems and bad reactions to most drugs due to an old illness from many years ago, so think this will be the same, and am terrified of the reactions from these too, Understandably, realistically speaking I know I've got to try one or other yes. The thought of a shed on Minox while it's getting so horrendous now is another factor, plus the loads of people who say it ruined their hair/line and after the shed they didn't grow the hair back either...?

The downside of working from home is the fact I work for myself and don't have cover, so unless it's a local HT in London and I can go one day and back to work next, that is a tough one too. And I understand it's a no no to get it done here. London HT are frowned upon in these boards I notice. 
Are there ever any circumstances where someone has a HT and doesn't have to use Minox or Fin afterwards, I'm guessing not, or the remaining will fall out too?
Thanks again




> Ok I think I misunderstood what you were meaning. The link I sent was about how mpb can start and stop/slow, then start again  over time. That is what those guys were talking about and what has happened to me.  If there is such a thing as a good type of mpb that is probably it because it buys you time even without meds.
> 
> But if you mean it's starting/stopping like over weeks or months, that is shedding and is very common and happens to just about everyone using meds..I really don't know what it is, but to me it seems to be like a tug of war between your mpb and your meds. I took pics and you could see my crown expand and shrink back and forth.


 hey, thanks again, no meds so no, it is just a fall out at a very fast rate. It was a thinning over a few years, but now its just mental, and the front has shown through which it hadn't done until the last few months. I had an OK coverage at front, despite it receding, but now... it's awful. I just know that since September it's like a different head, It's gone so fast

----------


## Tracy C

> ...plus the loads of people who say it ruined their hair/line and after the shed they didn't grow the hair back either...?


 Stopping treatment due to shedding is the absolute worse thing you could do.  Shedding is part of the process.  The hair that sheds out usually grows back thicker than it was before it shed out - if you continue treatment.  The vast majority of these guys who complain about that made their problem worse by stopping treatment.  Their only chance of growing the hair that shed out back was to continue treatment - but they did not do that.  They freaked out over the shedding and they stopped treatment.  Big mistake.

Another big mistake many young males make is they try using it on their hair line.  Though some males can regrow some of their lost hair line hair, most males cannot.  This limitation does not apply to females.  For males, Minoxidil can be expected to work on the vertex and mid-anterior areas, not the hair line.  For females Minoxidil works the same all over her scalp.

----------


## Misery

Thanks Tracy, can you clear up the mid anterior, should I not use the Minox on the front of head, Like I said, the crown area has moved forward to forward and behind hair line now, Will it not work there, and can it damage hair line? A lot of guys just cover whole head in it I've read?

LaLaLa, another question, forgot to say... I was under the impression that if you were 20, you had a better chance for catching it early, but you say it's an advantage to be older? Thought less likely to grown back much if you're older?

----------


## mpb47

> hey, thanks again, no meds so no, it is just a fall out at a very fast rate. It was a thinning over a few years, but now its just mental, and the front has shown through which it hadn't done until the last few months. I had an OK coverage at front, despite it receding, but now... it's awful. I just know that since September it's like a different head, It's gone so fast


 Ok I think my original thought was correct then. I don't understand why it can be so slow or even completely dormant for years, then speed up, but all I can say is that is how it works for some guys. But again if there is  any good news, it's there is a reasonable chance that it will at least slow down in the future.

Oh and your other comment about the hairline..I would listen to Tracy as she knows what she is talking about.

You never know what results you are going to get till you try it (and stay on them for a long time). Everything I had read said that Propecia works best on both recent loss and in the crown area. Well for me, relatively speaking, I found the opposite to be true. I was receding at 15 or 17 at the latest but my crown didn't started thinning till about 36. Recession was always very slow, even stopping for years at a time. Crown came on quickly just like you are seeing now. Rogaine alone was like using water to fight mpb...crown just kept growing. Added Propecia shortly before I turned 38. Took 9-10 months to see results in crown..and while it did work well there, shrinking crown to small oval, it did not complelty get rid of it even though it was only a 2-3 years since it started. Hairline was diff story...started seeing results around 3-4 months and it had been so long I did not honestly realize how much it had receded till it started filling in again. It came forward and diffuse thinning was greatly reduced. After reading pubmed , I think the weird results I got were not from the meds, but rather my variation of mpb..which is more aggressive in back than in front, but point is you won't know till you try.
The hairline eaters probably have a more aggressive mpb in the front and going off meds is not going to help things at all..know that from my own experiences as well.

----------


## ravegrover

Well most people here want to treat hairloss. Using concealer is not treatment. You will compound your illusions and it will make it harder for you to accept your hairloss. And, as you continue to lose more hair, this stuff will look more and more ridiculous. My advise is to not use concealer and instead treat your hairloss.
With that said, if you are comfortable with using concealer, please ignore my advise.

----------


## Misery

> Ok I think my original thought was correct then. I don't understand why it can be so slow or even completely dormant for years, then speed up, but all I can say is that is how it works for some guys. But again if there is  any good news, it's there is a reasonable chance that it will at least slow down in the future.
> 
> Oh and your other comment about the hairline..I would listen to Tracy as she knows what she is talking about.
> 
> You never know what results you are going to get till you try it (and stay on them for a long time). Everything I had read said that Propecia works best on both recent loss and in the crown area. Well for me, relatively speaking, I found the opposite to be true. I was receding at 15 or 17 at the latest but my crown didn't started thinning till about 36. Recession was always very slow, even stopping for years at a time. Crown came on quickly just like you are seeing now. Rogaine alone was like using water to fight mpb...crown just kept growing. Added Propecia shortly before I turned 38. Took 9-10 months to see results in crown..and while it did work well there, shrinking crown to small oval, it did not complelty get rid of it even though it was only a 2-3 years since it started. Hairline was diff story...started seeing results around 3-4 months and it had been so long I did not honestly realize how much it had receded till it started filling in again. It came forward and diffuse thinning was greatly reduced. After reading pubmed , I think the weird results I got were not from the meds, but rather my variation of mpb..which is more aggressive in back than in front, but point is you won't know till you try.
> The hairline eaters probably have a more aggressive mpb in the front and going off meds is not going to help things at all..know that from my own experiences as well.


 Thanks for that, I hope I've not left it too late, It's been going on for a long time, but the fronts are more recent, can you use the Regaine all over without problems? Are you saying if crown has been shot for a fair while then it won't do any good? I'm assuming you meant 'crown kept going', not growing? It is the thinning ALL over now that's really scaring me, It's bad enough with no crown, but this is just horrible

----------


## mpb47

> Thanks for that, I hope I've not left it too late, It's been going on for a long time, but the fronts are more recent, can you use the Regaine all over without problems?


 Regaine=minox...then yes I use it all over.,.problems...skin irritation and dandruff but otherwise ok.





> Are you saying if crown has been shot for a fair while then it won't do any good?


 No...not what I mean at all. Yes normally drugs are supposed work better on recent loss AND the crown area, but in my case they seem to work better up front on much much older loss....loss that had started in my teens. My crown had started thinning only 2-3 years before I went on propecia...and yes it worked pretty good but I still had a small oval area of thinning that I could never get rid of. Yet I have seen guys over at bald talk that  in some cases had crown loss much worse than me but were able to reverse it so well you couldn't tell they were ever balding. 

Point of my rambling is you never know for sure how well they work till you try them..and if you do you must wait a good long time to know what is going to happen.





> I'm assuming you meant 'crown kept going', not growing? It is the thinning ALL over now that's really scaring me, It's bad enough with no crown, but this is just horrible


 What I mean is the size of my thin spot kept getting bigger(I was taking pictures)  until I went on propecia.  At that time my mpb was very fast and minox alone was not enough. Please weight the risks, but just know if your mpb is very fast you may have to add propecia ...now if it slows down you might get by for a good while on just minox.

Good luck!

----------


## Tracy C

> Thanks Tracy, can you clear up the mid anterior?


 I will try.  The vertex is the area where you typically see a bald spot on men.  The mid-anterior is forward of that in the front of your scalp.  There is often a bridge of hair between the vertex and mid anterior.  When this bridge of hair thins out and breaks the separation between the vertex and mid-anterior, you have reached Norwood 6.  Minoxidil works in these areas for most males.  Minoxidil does not work on the hair line for most males.






> ... and can it damage hair line? A lot of guys just cover whole head in it I've read?


 To say Minoxidil can "damage" a males hair line is not an accurate way to put it, though many young males do just that.  Minoxidil can speed up the development of the natural and normal adult mature male hair line.

This confuses many because they do not understand that males have different hair lines than females do.  They wrongfully think the natural and normal adult mature male hair line is MPB.  It is not.






> I was under the impression that if you were 20, you had a better chance for catching it early, but you say it's an advantage to be older? Thought less likely to grown back much if you're older?


 I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say here or how you understood what I said.

It is best to catch MPB early.  The earlier the better.  What happens too often is young males think the natural and normal adult mature male hair line is MPB, which it is not.  Then they try to prevent the natural and normal adult mature hair line from happening by using a medication that is intended for treating MPB.  When they try to prevent it, they usually end up speeding up the process.  This gives them the false impression that the medication made their hair loss worse.  The truth is they made their hair loss worse themselves by not understanding what is actually going on.

I know, this is still probably clear as mud but I am trying.

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## Misery

> Regaine=minox...then yes I use it all over.,.problems...skin irritation and dandruff but otherwise ok.
> 
> No...not what I mean at all. Yes normally drugs are supposed work better on recent loss AND the crown area, but in my case they seem to work better up front on much much older loss....loss that had started in my teens. My crown had started thinning only 2-3 years before I went on propecia...and yes it worked pretty good but I still had a small oval area of thinning that I could never get rid of. Yet I have seen guys over at bald talk that  in some cases had crown loss much worse than me but were able to reverse it so well you couldn't tell they were ever balding. 
> 
> Point of my rambling is you never know for sure how well they work till you try them..and if you do you must wait a good long time to know what is going to happen.
> 
> What I mean is the size of my thin spot kept getting bigger(I was taking pictures)  until I went on propecia.  At that time my mpb was very fast and minox alone was not enough. Please weight the risks, but just know if your mpb is very fast you may have to add propecia ...now if it slows down you might get by for a good while on just minox.
> 
> Good luck!


 
thank you for clearing that up, I understand more now from yourself and Tracy, that for the most part you can apply the minox all over, and I'm still not sure about whether to use the foam or the liquid yet, and that the likelihood of it ruining hairline is more from people not maintaining use than anything else, or it was going to go anyway





> I will try.  The vertex is the area where you typically see a bald spot on men.  The mid-anterior is forward of that in the front of your scalp.  There is often a bridge of hair between the vertex and mid anterior.  When this bridge of hair thins out and breaks the separation between the vertex and mid-anterior, you have reached Norwood 6.  Minoxidil works in these areas for most males.  Minoxidil does not work on the hair line for most males.
> 
> To say Minoxidil can "damage" a males hair line is not an accurate way to put it, though many young males do just that.  Minoxidil can speed up the development of the natural and normal adult mature male hair line.
> 
> This confuses many because they do not understand that males have different hair lines than females do.  They wrongfully think the natural and normal adult mature male hair line is MPB.  It is not.
> 
> I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say here or how you understood what I said.
> 
> It is best to catch MPB early.  The earlier the better.  What happens too often is young males think the natural and normal adult mature male hair line is MPB, which it is not.  Then they try to prevent the natural and normal adult mature hair line from happening by using a medication that is intended for treating MPB.  When they try to prevent it, they usually end up speeding up the process.  This gives them the false impression that the medication made their hair loss worse.  The truth is they made their hair loss worse themselves by not understanding what is actually going on.
> ...


 You are explaining incredibly well, it's just that I'm so aghast with all the terminology on these boards and trying to take it all in, the transplant lingo on the other boards are even more confusing, terms I've not clue as to what they are talking about, and how well versed you all are as well. So the mid is basically the bit inside the horseshoe of hair that shapes what most men keep when losing the rest of it around that? I think.... 

What shows best results these days, foam or liquid for men, I see the foam says only for use up to age 49, so wonder how it differs

Sorry Tracy, that was just questioning LaLaLa's post about me being in a better position because he said it was better to be older and to tackle this as opposed to me thinking it was better to catch early etc.

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## Tracy C

> What shows best results these days, foam or liquid for men, I see the foam says only for use up to age 49, so wonder how it differs.


 This is based on the age of the oldest study subject when the study was conducted.  The makers cannot claim it will work for anyone older than the oldest person who participated in the study.

For the most part, the foam is the best.  I use both the foam and the liquid.  I use the foam for my morning dose because it is very stealthy and dries very quickly.  I use the liquid generic for my evening dose because it is a lot less expensive than the foam.

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## mpb47

> thank you for clearing that up, I understand more now from yourself and Tracy, that for the most part you can apply the minox all over, and I'm still not sure about whether to use the foam or the liquid yet, and that the likelihood of it ruining hairline is more from people not maintaining use than anything else, or it was going to go anyway


 Some believe the liquid is more effective, but it's so messy that I only use it at night and have to wash my hair every morning. So I only use it 1x a day which some dr's think is fine. I even skip a day here and there to give my scalp a break. Never tried the foam but I have read it is much better for daytime use as it does not mess up your hair as much. Which ever way you go, buy your minox online..as it is much cheaper, even over walmart who has recently become way over priced.  About $22-$30 for 6 bottles of liquid  kirkland brand from Amazon. Price varies because different vendors sell it and it depends on who has it in stock at the time. There are 2 different boxes and one box will be higher than the other even though they contain the same 6 bottles. I just paid $30 but that was because I paid extra for fast shipping as I was running out.



You are explaining incredibly well, it's just that I'm so aghast with all the terminology on these boards and trying to take it all in, the transplant lingo on the other boards are even more confusing, terms I've not clue as to what they are talking about, and how well versed you all are as well. So the mid is basically the bit inside the horseshoe of hair that shapes what most men keep when losing the rest of it around that? I think.... 

What shows best results these days, foam or liquid for men, I see the foam says only for use up to age 49, so wonder how it differs

Sorry Tracy, that was just questioning LaLaLa's post about me being in a better position because he said it was better to be older and to tackle this as opposed to me thinking it was better to catch early etc.[/QUOTE]

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## Misery

thanks again both of you, I'm still shedding at a rate of knots for some reason, It seems to never end, It's gone on forever, clothes, pillows, shoulders at all stage of day, this laptop! I started using Nizoral again, which I didn't like last time as it always made my hair fall out. The Nizorelle which was the 1% version was brilliant and maintained very well, but the makers stopped making it and that also played a part on me I think. I remember reading ages ago, that using Nizoral was having the same effects as people using Regaine, I sincerely hope not or it won't do anything for me!

As you know, I use concealer, derm and fibres, and the thought of washing it every day fills me with horror as well, but I guess if I start on Minox next week, then i will have no option? Is there ever a time when it's safe to put it on top of them, even if it's just a couple of times a week or is that a very bad idea, providing of course that the baseball cap stays on head wherever I am! I'm guessing if needs me the foam would be the better bet on those days?

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## Tracy C

> I remember reading ages ago, that using Nizoral was having the same effects as people using Regaine, I sincerely hope not or it won't do anything for me!


 The study indicated that Nizoral can stimulate hair to grow in females with hereditary hair loss.  That does not mean that the mechanism of action is the same, though shedding itself is a normal part of treating hereditary hair loss.  Therefore basically any treatment for hereditary hair loss will involve a period of shedding.  Propecia involves a period of shedding.  Rogaine/Regaine involves a period of shedding.  The laser comb involves a period of shedding.  Dutasteride involves a period of shedding.  The hair that sheds out usually grows back thicker than it was before it shed out.

I don't believe they stopped making 1% Nizoral A-D, however there is a supply problem.  They are not making enough to meet demand.  This is not the first time that has happened.  There is an alternative available in Regenepure though it is very over priced.  Regenepure has almost 1% Ketoconazole in it but not quite.  The percentage is close enough to 1% that the makers round the percentage up to 1%.  Since they do not mass print this statement, they can get away with that.  Anyways, if I find myself unable to get Nizoral A-D when my current supply runs out, I will start using Regenepure.

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## guygroomes12

I would start with a multi vitamin, quitting smoking, releasing pent up stress and dealing with it properly. Do not let it fester. Do something anything to burn it off. And using rogaine until you get a prescription for propecia. I use saw palmetto, its experimental though. I used nizoral 2% for awhile but the bottle said 2-3 times per week so i used it that much and threw it out.

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## guygroomes12

yeah its true tracy usually contributes pretty sound advices. Ive heard so much about stress being a non issue. And although i do believe hereditary hairloss is common. I also believe now adays with the hectic lifestyles and economy issues its really easy to fall into a stress hole. Proactivity is the key focusing on things you can control, yeah my land lords a dick and stresses me out, but i take that stress and put it into something i can control, or a positive location such as running. Thats the key, and although not a miracle cure. I can see that alot of people handle it opposite and start puffing more cigarettes or eating like crap. And i have no doubt that it will accelerate/exacerbate/ or even cause hairloss. No doubt in my mind. And stressed out people tend to be horribly balanced people as well, so im pretty sure their diets are lacking.
Like the people who drink alot while in college because of stress, or eat pizza 5 times a week. I believe if you continue that for a long time you will see negative effects on your body. Including but not limited to hairloss, depression, all kinds of stuff.

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## Tracy C

> I used nizoral 2% for awhile but the bottle said 2-3 times per week so i used it that much and threw it out.


 The label on the Nizoral bottle does not say to use it 2 to 3 times per week.  It says to use it every 3 to 4 days for eight weeks then continue once per week - or as directed by a doctor.

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## Misery

I am shedding like you can't imagine at the moment. And I've been off cigarettes for 3 months now, What I do know is when I was smoking 15 or so a day, my hair was not great, but it was not see through anywhere other than the crown, and now it's just horrendous, which is why when you mention shedding on Regaine, I wonder whether it will actually leave any hair left on my head? I hate to endorse smoking and I'm not doing that in any way. It kills you, but, I'm convinced this has played a huge part, and stress has hit the roof more now because of the worry of seeing hair fall out every day, A vicious circle

Nizorelle, the 1&#37; version of Nizoral has definitely been stopped here in the UK, because I spoke to the makers on the phone and they told me it didn't sell so they stopped making it. I was getting on really well with that, but damage is done now for being off it nearly a year. Nizoral the 2% which doesn't like me very much is readily available in most places here in London and no prescription

I have taken a very high power Multi Vit as well as B Complexes in the last 3 weeks, but nothing is slowing this shed up, I've tried to eat healthier also and had no red meats for ages.

I will have to start on the Regain foam next week and pray it doesn't get rid of what I DO have left. That is my biggest worry because of how thin it's become so quickly. 

Do you comb it in for more effect or just rub and how much can you use without going mad and this is going to get even worse, right?

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## Tracy C

> Do you comb it in for more effect or just rub and how much can you use without going mad and this is going to get even worse, right?


 You massage it into your scalp.  It is very important that you get the medicine into contact with your scalp.  Some will get in your hair but don't worry about that.  Use only the amount directed on the bottle and no more.

To help you try to avoid shedding, start off with using it only once a day every other day for that first bottle.  Then use it once a day every day for the next bottle.  Then use it twice a day as directed from then on.

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## guygroomes12

How many times per week is 3 days twice, so i was one of big whoop.

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## guygroomes12

btw what helps me is wearing a hat. Its alot easier to stop worrying about it if you cant see it

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## Tracy C

> How many times per week is 3 days twice, so i was one of big whoop.


 Using too much ketoconazole can make your hair loss worse.  Since you were using 2&#37; 2 to 3 times per week,  You were using way too much no matter how you want to look at it.  You should only use 2% once per week and no more than that.

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## Misery

> You massage it into your scalp.  It is very important that you get the medicine into contact with your scalp.  Some will get in your hair but don't worry about that.  Use only the amount directed on the bottle and no more.
> 
> To help you try to avoid shedding, start off with using it only once a day every other day for that first bottle.  Then use it once a day every day for the next bottle.  Then use it twice a day as directed from then on.


 Thanks Tracy, Am I good to put over whole head as it's diffuse I've no option but to get it on the hair and not just the thin parts because it's thinned over whole head? When you say some will get in hair, I'm thinking all will as I need it all over, other than the sides?
I see on another thread someone mentions to not go mad on the hairline, Is that a big no no, and should only use a very small amount there or just the same as everywhere else. 
Thanks for the advice on day on day off, It suits me better as you know with all the concealers, and I may have to on occasion put in with the concealers..





> btw what helps me is wearing a hat. Its alot easier to stop worrying about it if you cant see it


 I spend my life in a cap... that's the problem

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## Aames

> Using too much ketoconazole can make your hair loss worse.  Since you were using 2% 2 to 3 times per week,  You were using way too much no matter how you want to look at it.  You should only use 2% once per week and no more than that.


 What? Where did you read this?

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## Tracy C

> What? Where did you read this?


 You can start by reading the side effect information on Ketoconazole that is available on the FDA's web site.  It is a good idea to know the side effect profiles of every med you are taking, especially if you intend to over dose on it.  The possibility of experiencing side effects of almost any medication is increased with the higher the dose.  Using your grey matter, it is easy to determine that over dosing on Ketoconazole can cause hair loss to worsen.

You can follow that up by reading about those who complain about Ketoconazole shampoos making their hair loss worse.  In every single case I have read, the person was actually over using the Ketoconazole shampoo.  Conversely, every case I read in which improvement in their hair was seen, those people were using Ketoconazole shampoo properly.

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## Misery

Tracy, or anyone, any ideas on my last questions on application, I'm not sure about that, thanks

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## Tracy C

> Tracy, or anyone, any ideas on my last questions on application, I'm not sure about that, thanks


 Some medicine will get into your hair.  There is no way to avoid that without shaving your head.  This is not enough to be concerned about though.  Just do your best to get the medicine down to your scalp where it needs to be as you gently massage it in.

Generally it is a waste of medicine for a male to use it on their hair line.  Most males cannot regrow hair in their line hair anyways, especially temple hair for caucasion males.  If you want to dry the medicine off your fingers in your hair line and/or temples, there is no reason not to do that if you want.

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## Misery

Is that a bad thing though if it gets on the hair, I don't understand what the problem is. I've not heard this before. If I put all over, all my hair will be covered by it. Will this cause me more problems as I don't see being able to avoid it. 

Is the problem that the whole head of hair will then be dependent on Minox if it covers the entirety, which it will be, because my hair isn't that short, It's not mega long but would be impossible to not coat all hair as it's diffuse and will need an all over?

The hairline and temples will also get it because the diffuse is basically all over?

I've heard some positives on hair line, or the holes either side where it recedes with minox?

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## Tracy C

> Is that a bad thing though if it gets on the hair, I don't understand what the problem is.


 To be very honest, I am not understanding why you are not understanding what I am telling you.  I am going to try again and I am going to be very direct about it - so please don't take it harshly.

You cannot avoid getting it in your hair.

It is not a problem if you do get it in your hair.

It is important to get the medicine down to your scalp as much as you possibly can as you gently massage it onto your scalp.

Do the best you can.

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## Misery

Sorry, I didn't understand what the problem was because you said obviously some goes on the hair... but mentioned _This is not enough to be concerned about though._

I didn't know that was any concern, if it did which is why I asked the question,  if a lot goes on the healthy hair does the whole head become dependent on it even if it was put on hair that isn't falling out? 

Obviously on a diffuse head it's going on all the hair... can't be helped

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## Misery

Probably didn't explain myself very well here, but am interested to know what if any problems there are by covering good hair with Regaine, and it's unavoidable for a diffuser obviously. I know Tracy's statement said it's not a problem if it's just a small amount 
_Some medicine will get into your hair. There is no way to avoid that without shaving your head. This is not enough to be concerned about though._  but wondered why it's not enough to be concerned about, meaning it can be a problem if you use too much? Can anyone explain that to me, and what adverse effects if you do use too much?
Thanks

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## Morbo

For God sake man... this thread... are you losing hair or braincells?
How much clearer can she be? Just use the damn medicine and treat your scalp or don't. She's saying it's wasteful/useless to just let it soak into the hair itself. It's not rocket-science.

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## Misery

> For God sake man... this thread... are you losing hair or braincells?
> How much clearer can she be? Just use the damn medicine and treat your scalp or don't. She's saying it's wasteful/useless to just let it soak into the hair itself. It's not rocket-science.


 Thanks so much. It's people like you who make life worth living. GFY

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## Tracy C

> ...but wondered why it's not enough to be concerned about, meaning it can be a problem if you use too much? Can anyone explain that to me, and what adverse effects if you do use too much?
> Thanks


 There really is no more direct or simpler way to explain this.  I have searched and searched but it has already been put as simply as it can possibly be.

The important thing is to get the medicine onto your scalp.  The medicine does nothing useful if it is in your hair.  The medicine needs to be on your scalp in order to do you any good.

Anytime you use too much of any medication, you increase your chances of experiencing the possible side effects of that medication.  This is true of every medication on the planet.

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## drybone

> Sorry, I didn't understand what the problem was because you said obviously some goes on the hair... but mentioned _This is not enough to be concerned about though._
> 
> I didn't know that was any concern, if it did which is why I asked the question,  if a lot goes on the healthy hair does the whole head become dependent on it even if it was put on hair that isn't falling out? 
> 
> Obviously on a diffuse head it's going on all the hair... can't be helped


 Hey man. 

We all understand your fears and apprehension. Tracy gives out excellent advice based on years of research. She wouldn't steer you wrong. If she says take the meds, then go get the meds and take em. 

At very least, take Tracy's advice to a doctor and ask them if you should follow through.

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## Misery

I get that, I'd just been reading about people who say that their healthy hair became dependant on the Rogaine too, that's what I was trying to ask about. Because obviously as a diffuse you have no option but to plaster if over the whole front and back of your head

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## drybone

> I get that, I'd just been reading about people who say that their healthy hair became dependant on the Rogaine too, that's what I was trying to ask about. Because obviously as a diffuse you have no option but to plaster if over the whole front and back of your head


 Hey. 

My diffuse was in the front to mid scalp. Still thick at mid scalp back to crown.

So I never went the rogaine route. Does it stop the bleeding ? Whats the regrowth like?

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## Misery

No idea yet... what do you mean bleeding?
Mine has gone crown to front now, much more rapidly than when the crown was thinning, that was a long process, but mid, back and front seem to thin out much too quickly, hence my panic

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## mpb47

> I get that, I'd just been reading about people who say that their healthy hair became dependant on the Rogaine too, that's what I was trying to ask about. Because obviously as a diffuse you have no option but to plaster if over the whole front and back of your head


 It's not that your healthy hair becomes dependant, it's just that as time goes on your healthy hair started to be effected by mpb and Rogaine keeps it growing, where as otherwise, you would have lost it.

Same with propecia. If you use it for a long time and then stop, you will lose more than what you started because the drug was keeping hair you would have otherwise lost. It just means the drug was doing it's job.

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## drybone

> No idea yet... *what do you mean bleeding*?
> Mine has gone crown to front now, much more rapidly than when the crown was thinning, that was a long process, but mid, back and front seem to thin out much too quickly, hence my panic


 As in 'stopped the hair loss' . 

 :Smile:

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## Misery

> It's not that your healthy hair becomes dependant, it's just that as time goes on your healthy hair started to be effected by mpb and Rogaine keeps it growing, where as otherwise, you would have lost it.
> 
> Same with propecia. If you use it for a long time and then stop, you will lose more than what you started because the drug was keeping hair you would have otherwise lost. It just means the drug was doing it's job.


 that does make perfect sense!! Thank you




> As in 'stopped the hair loss' .


 Ahh, not yet, but it's very early days

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