# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Tocotrienol (vitamin E) may reverse male pattern baldness

## clandestine

Edit: Accidentally posted this to 'Cutting Edge / Future Treatments' forum when it should probably be in the 'Hair Loss Treatments' forum. Perhaps a moderator can move it? Couldn't figure out how to delete and repost. Thanks!

Found this claim in a wikipedia article;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldness

"An eight month study performed at the School of Pharmaceutical Sciences at the University of Science Malaysia showed daily supplements of a patented *tocotrienol (vitamin E) complex may increase hair growth in people with male pattern baldness by 42 percent.*[56]"

Here is information regarding the study conducted;

http://www.tocotrienol.org/images/st...d%20beyond.pdf

"An 8-month study was performed at the School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Science Malaysia with 28 volunteers aged 18 to 59 years with mild to moderately severe hair loss.

Volunteers supplemented with Tocomin SupraBio showed statistically significant higher hair counts postsupplementation (p<0.01). *An average of 41.8% increase in the number of hair was observed after 8 months* whereby

• 8 volunteers (40.0%) showed >50%
hair growth
• 1 volunteer (5.0%) showed 25-50%
hair growth 
• 9 volunteers (45.0%) showed
10-25% hair growth
• 1 volunteer (5.0%) showed <10%
hair growth"

Article regarding the study results;

http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...baldness-Study

"Daily supplements of a patented tocotrienol (vitamin E) complex may increase hair growth in people with male pattern baldness by 42 per cent.

*Hair coverage*, measured by counting the number of hairs in a pre-selected 2x2 cm area, *was significantly increased by an average of 41.8 per cent in the tocotrienol group, with eight volunteers experiencing greater than 50 per cent growth.*"

Additional source;

http://www.naturalnews.com/028050_vitamin_E_hair.html

"Vitamin E helps with the growth of capillaries. When there are more capillaries, the circulation improves and it is thought that the improved circulation to the scalp is the trigger for preventing hair loss."

Thoughts?

----------


## Thinning@30

This is intriguing.  But before anyone runs out to the drugstore to buy a whole shopping cart full of vitamin E pills, notice that the study claims that the participants were given a _patented_ vitamin E complex.  I'm curious to know what was in the complex other than vitamin E.  Who funded the study?  I'm also unsure of what to make of the fact that the study was performed at a university in Malaysia.  How is that institution regarded within the global academic community?  Also, did measurements count only terminal hairs?  A 41.0 percent increase in terminal hairs seems like it should be enough to be cosmetically significant.  Are there photographs?  I think more information and independent verification are needed.

----------


## HairTalk

The number (average re-growth>40&#37 :Wink:  sounds impressive, but the single before–after image published would be lucky to underwhelm a person — it's likely just lighting and angle, but I think the subject actually may be showing less hair in the "after" shot...

----------


## Thinning@30

> The number (average re-growth>40%) sounds impressive, but the single beforeafter image published would be lucky to underwhelm a person  it's likely just lighting and angle, but I think the subject actually may be showing less hair in the "after" shot...


 I saw the single photograph too.  I don't think the picture (figures 2 and 3) is referenced in the article, so I don't what it is trying show, but there appears to be no growth at all.  The only difference I see is that the hair looks wet in the before picture--a well known tactic of people selling snake oil hair loss cures.

----------


## mrmanns

Couldn't help but registering and commenting on this thread

I've been a lurker

Well it does grow hair, literally

If you shave your beard, it'll grow back 5x as faster and thicker (This is how you will actually see first hand it can grow hair)

Us bodybuilders use it

Here are the two top toco products

Jarrow Formulas, Inc.
Toco-Sorb

and

TOCO-8 - Primordial Performance

It also has awesome fat burning attributes to it, boost metabolism.

I've been on toco for about a year now

----------


## HairTalk

> Couldn't help but registering and commenting on this thread
> 
> I've been a lurker
> 
> Well it does grow hair, literally
> 
> If you shave your beard, it'll grow back 5x as faster and thicker (This is how you will actually see first hand it can grow hair)
> 
> Us bodybuilders use it
> ...


 Sounds more as if you may have registered to promote products.

----------


## mrmanns

> Sounds more as if you may have registered to promote products.


 uh no, if I wanted to promote I would of gave you a link

Plus those two companies compete with each other

----------


## clandestine

mrmanns; you make some interesting claims, if veritable. perhaps you could provide us with some photographic evidence? it does a world of difference, compared to claims made by written word.

----------


## mrmanns

> mrmanns; you make some interesting claims, if veritable. perhaps you could provide us with some photographic evidence? it does a world of difference, compared to claims made by written word.


 You can do a simple google search, people who take Steroids use Toco-8 it's stronger than tocosorb. So Imagine how strong it is, they take it because they're taking high levels of DHT


_EDISON, NJ***8212;Results of a human clinical trial evaluating the effect of a tocotrienol-tocopherol complex (as Tocomin&#174;SupraBio***8482;, from Carotech) on hair-loss prevention has been published in the journal Tropical Life Sciences Research (Dec. 2010; 21(2):91-99). The randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial was conducted at the School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Science Malaysia.

The study involved 38 male and female volunteers who suffered hair loss; they were given either mixed tocotrienol softgel capsules containing 50mg Tocomin&#174;SupraBio***8482; (n=21) or a placebo (n=17) twice a day for eight months. At baseline, four months (16th week) of supplementation and eight months (32nd week), researchers measured hair count and hair weight over a designated scalp area of 2x2 cm, and recorded obvious hair thinning.

After statistically analyzing the collected data, researchers found 95 percent of volunteers in the tocotrienol group (19 of 20 who actually finished the trial) experienced hair growth. Of these, 40 percent (8 volunteers) had more than 50 percent hair growth, 5 percent (1 volunteer) had 25 to 50 percent hair growth, 45 percent (9 volunteers) had 10 to 25 percent hair growth, and 5 percent had less than 10 percent hair growth. Only one volunteer in this group had a slight decrease in the number of hairs. In the placebo group, only one volunteer experienced more than 20 percent hair growth, seven volunteers (46.7 percent) had negligible increases, while the remaining 7 volunteers (46.7 percent) had a decrease in the number of hairs. Overall, the results indicated supplementation with 100 mg/d Tocomin SupraBio for eight months increased hair growth by 34.5 percent and resulted in a significant increase in the number of hairs, compared to the placebo group. There was no significant difference between he groups in the area of hair weight.

The researchers concluded tocotrienol***8217;s effect on hair loss could be due to its potent antioxidant activity on lipid peroxidation and oxidative stress in the scalp, which can contribute to hair loss.

***8220;The million dollar hair growth product market is currently being dominated by pharmaceutical companies that require stringent compliance on usage yet not without undesirable side effects,***8221; said WH Leong, vice president, Carotech Inc., who noted Tocomin&#174;SupraBio***8482; is naturally extracted from virgin crude palm oil and FDA-approved GRAS. ***8220;The bioenhanced Tocomin&#174;SupraBio***8482; natural full spectrum palm tocotrienol complex ensures an average of 250-precent increase in tocotrienol oral absorption which greatly assisted in delivering a consistent supply of tocotrienols to different tissues.***8221; Leong also noted the US Patent and Trademark Office has granted a patent (Patent No. 7,211,274 ) for Tocomin&#174;SupraBio***8482; as a novel hair growth formulation due to its proven efficacy._

----------


## clandestine

mrmanns; are you yourself suffering from hair loss in any way, shape, or form?

----------


## mrmanns

> mrmanns; are you yourself suffering from hair loss in any way, shape, or form?


 
I can tell you I stopped it DEAD in it's tracks for a good year now. Taking Saw Palmetto and Toco. Sometimes Toco 8 or Tocosorb depending on how much I can afford at the time

Toco is really one of the best natural supplements you can take in my opinion try it, you can really tell it works by how your beard grows back. It has something that just makes hair grow like grass. Well atleast the hair you still have, but it does indeed grow new hairs.

I'm surprised none of these snake oil salesmen had made something into liquid form yet for the scalp

----------


## sanook

First time poster here... those % figures sound  impressive. Almost too good to be true?

I wouldn't mind trying this out, but I'm not exactly sure what to purchase or how much to take on a daily basis? If I go to a pharmacy do i just ask for some vitamin E tablets that are the tocotrienol type?

----------


## sanook

> I can tell you I stopped it DEAD in it's tracks for a good year now. Taking Saw Palmetto and Toco. Sometimes Toco 8 or Tocosorb depending on how much I can afford at the time
> 
> Toco is really one of the best natural supplements you can take in my opinion try it, you can really tell it works by how your beard grows back. It has something that just makes hair grow like grass. Well atleast the hair you still have, but it does indeed grow new hairs.
> 
> I'm surprised none of these snake oil salesmen had made something into liquid form yet for the scalp


 Do you take anything else for your hair loss, such as propecia/finisteride/minoxidil etc?

----------


## mrmanns

> Do you take anything else for your hair loss, such as propecia/finisteride/minoxidil etc?


 I notice that it works better without minoxidil, all I've noticed from minoxidil and all those other products is that it clogs your pores. Sure you will gain but, from me testing things out before I found toco. All those other things what it does is, makes you shed faster from all the touching you do to it.

Also I've notice that hairlosss has to do with hormonal changes and something going on inside your body.

Ive never had serious baldness but I stopped it dead in its tracks and I can tell you it stopped shedding 100%

Dealt with it and maintained for 2 years before I got on toco and it was by mistake too

I body build and found the product while buying workout supplements

I don't take steroids but, it's a very popular product they use to combat DHT levels 

Toco is just a really great great thing you can take for yourself in general

I can tell you things like Resveratrol have nothing on Toco

You can actually see the affects Toco is making on your hair growth in just one week and also how it burns fat and lowers cholesterol

I'm telling you, time how long it takes for your beard to grow in one week

And once on toco time it again, your beard will grow 5x as faster 

Thats how you can tell how it's affecting hair growth

----------


## mrmanns

> First time poster here... those % figures sound  impressive. Almost too good to be true?
> 
> I wouldn't mind trying this out, but I'm not exactly sure what to purchase or how much to take on a daily basis? If I go to a pharmacy do i just ask for some vitamin E tablets that are the tocotrienol type?


 This is what most toco makers put in their product

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 serving scoop = 630mg
Servings per container: 60


Amount Per Serving 
%DV*  

Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols (Tocomin®) 
130mg**  


     d-alpha-tocotrienol 
30mg**  


     d-beta-tocotrienol 
4mg**  


     d-gamma-tocotrienol 
52mg**  


     d-delta-tocotrienol 
14mg**  


     d-alpha-tocopherols 
30mg  


     d-beta-tocopherols 
500mcg**  


     d-gamma-tocopherols 
315mcg**  


     d-delta-tocopherols 
31mcg**  


Naturally Occurring Phyto-nutrients 
30mg**  


    Plant Squalene 
22mg**  


    Mixed Plant Sterols  



        (beta-sitosterol campesterol stigmasterol) 
8mg**  


    Mixed Carotenoids  



        (A-carotene B-carotene Y-carotene) 
200mcg**  


    Co-Enzyme Q10 
10mcg**

----------


## mrmanns

I just want to give some of you people some good news, my bald spot was about maybe half an inch wide where it was serious and maybe 1.5 inches wide where I could see fading

I just cut my hair short today and the bald spot is about 85% GONE

This is the first time where I cut my hair short to about 1 inch long in 3 years

If anything natural can atleast help you regrow hair this is it

This is what I take on a daily basis

A Multivitamin
1 Saw Palmetto Tablet
and 2 Tocosorbs or 1 Toco 8

And I also use a natural shampoo with thickening agents 

DO NOT use the shower head to clean your hair

I've notice showering does more harm to the area where you're trying to regrow

What you need to do is, fill up your bathtub and lean your head back under water. If you don't have a bathtub, then try to come up with something where you can do what I said.

What you want to achieve is having your hair combed back naturally by the water so you can easily apply shampoo to your hair. Do the same thing again to rinse your hair

Also use a blowdryer to dry your hair

Do not in any form touch your hair when wet

These tips are only usefull if your hair is longer then 1 inch long

These are the methods I used to regrow

----------


## BoSox

Where can I get tocotrienol? Websites state that this is no normal vitamin E supplement.

----------


## mrmanns

> Where can I get tocotrienol? Websites state that this is no normal vitamin E supplement.


 You're just going to have to do a search on tocosorb or toco-8 before people think I'm promoting which I'm not.

And you're right, it's no normal vitamin E. It's a hair growing machine

----------


## BoSox

From the reviews toco8 is def a supplement I can benefit from. Just ordered some, I will give it a few months and see what happens.

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## mrmanns

> From the reviews toco8 is def a supplement I can benefit from. Just ordered some, I will give it a few months and see what happens.


 Toco 8 is definitely potent, watch how fast a shaven beard grows back. You'll see it the first week you're on it

I'll say give it about 3 months for you see real hair growth on your scalp, before then you'll see little fuzz hairs growing

----------


## PacWantsHair

> Toco 8 is definitely potent, watch how fast a shaven beard grows back. You'll see it the first week you're on it
> 
> I'll say give it about 3 months for you see real hair growth on your scalp, before then you'll see little fuzz hairs growing


 Can I try this Toco-8 while I'm taking Propecia? This stuff sounds pretty interesting. I've been on Propecia for about a year now and I don't want to get off of it - can I still take this Toco-8 stuff?

Thanks..

----------


## nrj

> I just want to give some of you people some good news, my bald spot was about maybe half an inch wide where it was serious and maybe 1.5 inches wide where I could see fading
> 
> I just cut my hair short today and the bald spot is about 85% GONE
> 
> This is the first time where I cut my hair short to about 1 inch long in 3 years
> 
> If anything natural can atleast help you regrow hair this is it
> 
> This is what I take on a daily basis
> ...


 Dont touch your hair? how will you clean and unclog your scalp of dirt and different particles? 

i also wanna see some pics if you have mrmanns. 

thanks.

there arent many people who sign onto a forum just to say a product has worked for them.

----------


## mrmanns

> Dont touch your hair? how will you clean and unclog your scalp of dirt and different particles? 
> 
> i also wanna see some pics if you have mrmanns. 
> 
> thanks.
> 
> there arent many people who sign onto a forum just to say a product has worked for them.


 Well I'm just posting what worked for me, getting your scalp moist and wet is enough to clean it

You don't want to put pressure on your scalp, you just want to minimize hair falling out of your scalp to begin with. And that goes the same for combing, try to not put too much pressure 

And if I post pictures all you'll see if a full set of hair. I was never that bald to begin with, but like I told everybody I was fortunate enough to stop it in it's tracks before it got serious

I say my baldspot was a nickel wide and 2 nickels wide where it was fading. And I always use to grow my hair long so it was unnoticeable. It was at the crown of my head

----------


## mrmanns

> Can I try this Toco-8 while I'm taking Propecia? This stuff sounds pretty interesting. I've been on Propecia for about a year now and I don't want to get off of it - can I still take this Toco-8 stuff?
> 
> Thanks..


 It's natural so I'll say go right ahead

And like I keep telling peopl here I'm not bsing, shave your beard if you have one. And while on a toco product watch for yourself how thick and quick your beard grows back

That's how I myself kept taking toco, I noticed it was a hair growing machine

----------


## mrmanns

It also stops ingrown hairs on your face since it grows hair so fast that the skin doesn't even have time to heal over some after you shave

You shall see for yourselves, post your results in here

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## eqvist

Why is this thread so dead? Dosn&#180;t people think this could work?
http://www.hairloss-research.org/Upd...enols4-08.html

There must be more people that have something to say about this!

----------


## BoSox

I just thought what if the pills I got are just sugar tablets? Is there a specific site i should be ordering these vitamins from?

----------


## Thinning@30

> Why is this thread so dead? Dosn´t people think this could work?
> http://www.hairloss-research.org/Upd...enols4-08.html
> 
> There must be more people that have something to say about this!


 The problem is that there are no three phase clinical studies showing effectiveness.  There seems to be only one study conducted at a university in Malaysia (not sure what to make of that).  The only photograph shows no growth and uses a well-known tactic of snake oil sellers (hair is wet in one photo, dry in the other).  Even if it promotes hair growth generally, there is insufficient evidence to suggest that it can prevent or reverse alopecia.  This is not to say that the product is of no benefit to hair loss sufferers, but without more evidence, this just feels like TRX2 all over again.

----------


## 2020

uhm are you all really into this?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


all of the posts from other hair loss forums says that this is garbage and it will have ZERO effect on your MPB...

what is going on? is this just marketing from toco people?

----------


## clandestine

perhaps you could link to the other forums denouncing the validity of this treatment (toco-8 specifically)? some sources would help.

----------


## 2020

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS440U  S440&q=site%3A************.com%2Finteract%2F+%22to  co-8%22+OR+%22Tocotrienol+%22&oq=site%3A************.  com%2Finteract%2F+%22toco-8%22+OR+%22Tocotrienol+%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&  gs_upl=138539l139443l0l139516l7l7l0l6l0l0l197l197l  0.1l1l0

no one so far reported anything positive(hair-wise) from taking this toco-8...

also: the study where they supposedly got good results was conducted with ONLY 11 PEOPLE. no further studies were conducted since..

the patent was obtained years ago so i'm sure we would have known by now if it did anything positive to our hair

----------


## BoSox

I'm always willing to try, besides it's just a vitamin. Regardless of how effective this is, I'm desperate. Won't hurt to try.

----------


## clandestine

> I'm always willing to try, besides it's just a vitamin. Regardless of how effective this is, I'm desperate. Won't hurt to try.


 True. Keep us updated if you decide to follow through.

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## goldbondmafia

mrmanns, 

Im only 20, noticed my hair thinning partially over the top and crown when I started lifting weights more intensely..had some bloodwork done which showed I have high levels of DHT ..im assuming the heavy diet of protein/carbs and heavy lifting has something to do with the DHT levels..anyways here are a few pics (taken under ceiling window with light coming through)..

Ive currently been using emu oil on my scalp in the morning and night, saw palmetto 2x daily, orange triad multi vitamins, biotin, nizoral and good regular shampoo & conditioner.

Few questions:

1) Does the toco cause shedding or any weird changes to your hair as you said it makes hair "fuzzy" or "grassy" at first? 

2) Any side effects

3) Which is better: Toco 8 or Toco-Sorb? On BB.com they sell Toco Sorb, im assuming this is the one you use? Cant find Toco 8 online anywhere..

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/jarrow/tocosorb.html

4) Anything else bodybuilders use that are natural DHT blockers other than this and saw palmetto?

Hopefully you can answer these questions it would be greatly appreciated thanks boss

----------


## mrmanns

> mrmanns, 
> 
> Im only 20, noticed my hair thinning partially over the top and crown when I started lifting weights more intensely..had some bloodwork done which showed I have high levels of DHT ..im assuming the heavy diet of protein/carbs and heavy lifting has something to do with the DHT levels..anyways here are a few pics (taken under ceiling window with light coming through)..
> 
> Ive currently been using emu oil on my scalp in the morning and night, saw palmetto 2x daily, orange triad multi vitamins, biotin, nizoral and good regular shampoo & conditioner.
> 
> Few questions:
> 
> 1) Does the toco cause shedding or any weird changes to your hair as you said it makes hair "fuzzy" or "grassy" at first? 
> ...


 I noticed TocoSorb works better, that's the one I'm currently on. It says it has 3x greater absorption since it's in pill Form. Toco 8 is in powder form

I think something in pill form works better since it isn't being digested instantly by your body

And Yeah I workout just like you, just follow my steps. You are in your 20s like me, you will stop it dead in it's tracks

I stopped it and I just take Saw Palmetto for DHT and a Shampoo that has it in it aswell

It's all hormones in your body that causes hairloss, Toco controls whatever it is that makes you lose hair

----------


## mrmanns

> https://www.google.com/search?num=10...97l197l0.1l1l0
> 
> no one so far reported anything positive(hair-wise) from taking this toco-8...
> 
> also: the study where they supposedly got good results was conducted with ONLY 11 PEOPLE. no further studies were conducted since..
> 
> the patent was obtained years ago so i'm sure we would have known by now if it did anything positive to our hair


 You are a shill

----------


## goldbondmafia

> I noticed TocoSorb works better, that's the one I'm currently on. It says it has 3x greater absorption since it's in pill Form. Toco 8 is in powder form
> 
> I think something in pill form works better since it isn't being digested instantly by your body
> 
> And Yeah I workout just like you, just follow my steps. You are in your 20s like me, you will stop it dead in it's tracks
> 
> I stopped it and I just take Saw Palmetto for DHT and a Shampoo that has it in it aswell
> 
> It's all hormones in your body that causes hairloss, Toco controls whatever it is that makes you lose hair


 Awesome so the link I posted would be the one to buy then from bb.com? BTW which brand of Saw Palmetto do you use, ive been using Organika but I feel like there could be much better brands. 

Was your hair loss/thinning similar to mine, better or worse?

thanks for the response.

----------


## mrmanns

> Awesome so the link I posted would be the one to buy then from bb.com? BTW which brand of Saw Palmetto do you use, ive been using Organika but I feel like there could be much better brands. 
> 
> Was your hair loss/thinning similar to mine, better or worse?
> 
> thanks for the response.


 Yeah it was kinda like that but at the crown of my head

And I take Swanson Vitamins Saw Palmetto 

I use to take 2 Palmettos a day but I cut back to one and I take 2 tocosorbs

1 after breakfast and another after lunch

I also add a multivitamin once a day

----------


## goldbondmafia

> Yeah it was kinda like that but at the crown of my head
> 
> And I take Swanson Vitamins Saw Palmetto 
> 
> I use to take 2 Palmettos a day but I cut back to one and I take 2 tocosorbs
> 
> 1 after breakfast and another after lunch
> 
> I also add a multivitamin once a day


 Makes sense, I generally take the saw palmetto once in morning and one before bed so it stays in my system equally. 

ill try the toco-sorb for sure, gonna see if they have it at supplement store here if not ill order it on BB.com thanks boss

----------


## goldbondmafia

btw did u notice any actual growth of thin hairs or improvement in the thickness of your crown or did the toco just stabilize? How long did this take for you?

----------


## Conpecia

Just bought some, the Vitacost Tocomin Suprabio, 120 softgels. For 22 bucks I figured what the hell. I'm currently a NW2.5 (what I am euphemistically dubbing the "elven" hairline), with a slowly thinning crown that has been stabilized pretty well over the last 5 years with Propecia. Also using Nizoral 2x/wk. No minox as of yet. I'll report back once the supply ends, or if I see noticeable improvement before then. Not very optimistic (just seems a little too easy), but the cost/benefit analysis leans heavily in favor of giving it a shot. Maybe this can hold me over until Gho's technique spreads or Replicel/Histogen/Aderans/Follica hits the market. At my current rate of loss I have about two good years left, maybe three.

----------


## mrmanns

> btw did u notice any actual growth of thin hairs or improvement in the thickness of your crown or did the toco just stabilize? How long did this take for you?


 Heck yeah, makes it thicker and grows hairs

I've been on it since Late 2010 early 2011

I didn't realize how much it grew my hair until I cut it short just a week ago messing with this thread

But I can tell you I noticed it getting thicker in just 3 months in

----------


## mrmanns

> Just bought some, the Vitacost Tocomin Suprabio, 120 softgels. For 22 bucks I figured what the hell. I'm currently a NW2.5 (what I am euphemistically dubbing the "elven" hairline), with a slowly thinning crown that has been stabilized pretty well over the last 5 years with Propecia. Also using Nizoral 2x/wk. No minox as of yet. I'll report back once the supply ends, or if I see noticeable improvement before then. Not very optimistic (just seems a little too easy), but the cost/benefit analysis leans heavily in favor of giving it a shot. Maybe this can hold me over until Gho's technique spreads or Replicel/Histogen/Aderans/Follica hits the market. At my current rate of loss I have about two good years left, maybe three.


 This is how you're gonna know it has something that just grows hair like a machine

Check out how when you shave your beard, how fast it grows back. Also how thick, your hairs are gonna come out like they had something to eat. Hairs will comeout like its 2 hairs in 1

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## mrmanns

I took out one of the thick hairs from my beard to show you how while on toco, it grows hairs so thick that. Some of my beard hairs grow like they're double

----------


## BoSox

That's good for your beard, but what does it do for the hairs that are important.. you know, the ones on your head? :/

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## mrmanns

> That's good for your beard, but what does it do for the hairs that are important.. you know, the ones on your head? :/


 I'm just showing people an example of how it grows hair

It will do the same for your head

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## clandestine

Just wanted to say we appreciate your input and participation in this thread, mrmanns.

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## mrmanns

> Just wanted to say we appreciate your input and participation in this thread, mrmanns.


 No problem, thanks for posting this. I thought I was in the minority about the potential of Toco. Glad you posted it

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## UK_

I have one important truth to offer this entire thread:

LOL.

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## Conpecia

Manns, I'm not sure all hair is equal. How's it gonna work against hair on the head that can't fight DHT is my real question. And most people around here are asking whether it will add new hair in bald spots on the head. The beard growth analogy can't answer those questions because not only is beard hair a different type of hair than head hair, it's also almost universally DHT resistant. But even if it can only make my existing head hairs thicker for a while, that'll justify the purchase. I'm really intrigued by the study more than anything else. Really good results.

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## Conpecia

> I have one important truth to offer this entire thread:
> 
> LOL.


 Elaborate, if you will, for the Americans.

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## PatientlyWaiting

I was in to using vitamins for hair regrowth last year but I gave up on that because all it did was make my existing hair grow faster, not give me more hair or thicken my existing hair.

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## cstella

> I took out one of the thick hairs from my beard to show you how while on toco, it grows hairs so thick that. Some of my beard hairs grow like they're double


 that thing looks like a chocolate jimmie

----------


## mrmanns

A lot of shills on this thread with agendas

Toco is proven to grow hair and stops hairloss in it's tracks

If you want to BS people about it and feel good then go right ahead

I don't lose anything, but others you con saying Toco and Vitamins don't work do

Toco is the real deal and when taken with a multivitamin and saw palmetto works even better

There's alot of money to be LOST by shills who obviously have an agenda with almost 1,000 post on this site

Anybody who has a high amount of post like that are obviously shilling

You would think they found the "cure" by being on this forum so long

Just try Toco for yourselves people, you will see for your self

It's very beneficial for you

Also some people need to research how The GOV is trying to restrict Vitamins and take them off the market completely

They do it because it's beneficial for you in many ways

So shills on this thread with agendas don't phase me, I know it's all about money and Toco doesn't even cost much. Thats a threat to whatever treatments they're tryna sell

Grows hair like grass makes it thicker, stops ingrown hairs, good for your eyes, lowers cholesterol, burns fat, builds muscle etc

It's not "The One" but it's one of the best things you can put in your body

----------


## mrmanns

> I have one important truth to offer this entire thread:
> 
> LOL.


 So come on big shot

----------


## mrmanns

> that thing looks like a chocolate jimmie


 It does lol, some hairs grow out like that. Really thick, it's like 2 hairs in one

----------


## mrmanns

Amazing I've found pictures from 3 years ago in my email when I was considering quick work done on my crown. They told me to send them shots for an evaluation, I'll do a before and after shot today and will show you

----------


## clandestine

Awesome, can't wait.

----------


## greatjob!

> A lot of shills on this thread with agendas
> 
> Toco is proven to grow hair and stops hairloss in it's tracks
> 
> If you want to BS people about it and feel good then go right ahead
> 
> I don't lose anything, but others you con saying Toco and Vitamins don't work do
> 
> Toco is the real deal and when taken with a multivitamin and saw palmetto works even better
> ...


 Dude seriously relax!! Do you even know what the word shill means? Cuz if by shill you are referring to a swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others to purchase a product, you are the only person in this thread who qualifies as a shill. All your posts sound like a damn infomercial for toco, but you haven't showed any proof. 

With that being said, I hope you do post before and after pics. I really hope toco is a miracle vitamin, but I won't hold my breath.

P.s.- before you start calling me a shill bla, bla, bla. I hope you will notice I have never promoted any product or service, and therefore do not qualify as a "shill"

----------


## mrmanns

> P.s.- before you start calling me a shill bla, bla, bla. I hope you will notice I have never promoted any product or service, and therefore do not qualify as a "shill"


 I'm not talking about you being a shill, I'm talking about guys that have 1,000 post hanging around a forum like this

Like that one guy saying he was going to post something true in here laughing like an immature kid

When I myself know for a fact this stuff works and I've got guys coming in here with an agenda tryna say other wise

----------


## mrmanns

> Awesome, can't wait.


 I'll have the shot comparisons at 7pm Eastern time

All data will be in raw form so you can see the dates on it and I'll use the same location I used for the original shot

----------


## 2020

am I the only one who imagines MRMANNS as that guy:

----------


## mrmanns

Before (2009) After (Now)

Both about the same length

As you can see, I wet my hair in the after picture. Like that you can really see improvement. Nearly 100% patched when dry, cropped pictures in program (obviously) 

Remember I started taking toco Late 2010 early 2011

Before that I experimented with topical solutions 

I am going to continue to improve, I say 85% of it is back

Hope I'm giving some of you guys some hope

----------


## mrmanns

> am I the only one who imagines MRMANNS as that guy:


 Yeah keep exposing yourself as a shill I don't care, I'm not here posting links. I know of 5 companies that are producing toco

I'm just here putting in work and info for people that can actaully appreciate it

You're obviously immature and must have an agenda to troll this thread

----------


## sanook

> Before (2009) After (Now)
> 
> Both about the same length
> 
> As you can see, I wet my hair in the after picture. Like that you can really see improvement. Nearly 100&#37; patched when dry, cropped pictures in program (obviously) 
> 
> Remember I started taking toco Late 2010 early 2011
> 
> Before that I experimented with topical solutions 
> ...


 I appreciate your effort. 

But you're not doing your reputation on here any favours when you post inconsistent images. They simply aren't good enough to convince me. 
The lighting is different.
The angle is different.
The hair is wet in second photo.

----------


## mrmanns

> I appreciate your effort. 
> 
> But you're not doing your reputation on here any favours when you post inconsistent images. They simply aren't good enough to convince me. 
> The lighting is different.
> The angle is different.
> The hair is wet in second photo.


 keep the shilling coming, first picture is from 2009. Second picture is from today. I take you not believing thats my results as a complement 

First picture was taken from my lg touch, second picture was from my droid. Ever heard about upgrading phones

Want my verizon receipts too shill ?

And I don't care for my reputation, you can believe me or not. At this point I give two shits about unappreciative people like yourself

Go trick people into spending money on useless garbage, go post your lame blogspot urls and other urls on your fake stock accounts

Time will tell people like yourself were full of shit, I get the last laugh though because toco actually worked on me and will work on others

You're just gonna make me not help other people that want to learn more about toco, I've already achieved my goals

----------


## mrmanns

My secret weapon is the scar on my forehead, keep pushing me and I'll post one of my hair dry tomorrow showing the same exact scar on my forehead more close up

That should shut you shills up

But it won't because obviously the point of shilling is to try to discredit something 

I am going to post it, so I can expose how shills have agendas. Especially when it comes to hairloss

Mad because I'm giving this info out for free? Mad because Toco is natural?

----------


## 2020

> Yeah keep exposing yourself as a shill I don't care, I'm not here posting links. I know of 5 companies that are producing toco
> 
> I'm just here putting in work and info for people that can actaully appreciate it
> 
> You're obviously immature and must have an agenda to troll this thread


 lol I joined this forum way before you... how could I've had an agenda to "troll" you if your thread didn't even exist yet....


shills have agendas?? huh?? paranoid much? what's wrong?

----------


## mrmanns

Also I guess I own a farm that produces Toco LMAO

Since I'm telling everybody to get whatever Toco from whatever companies that make it

I can CARELESS what company you decide to buy from

I guess I'm The Toco shill since toco worked for me

After I post more pictures I'm only going to post in this thread for a couple of more days

I don't have time to get mad over people trying to call me a liar, anybody would be upset too if they were volunteering their time to answer questions

REMEMBER THIS THOUGH, anything that is NATURAL is ALWAYS attacked

In anyline of business, NATURAL supplements is what they fear

Article on toco even preventing heart disease and heart attack

Study Found Vitamin E Tocotrienols Lowered Damage to Heart Muscle by 75%

http://www.naturalnews.com/033922_vi..._syndrome.html

Big Pharma, Hairloss industry = The samething and you better believe they have paid shills attacking natural vitamins 

See you guys tomorrow

----------


## 2020

btw, your pictures mean nothing. How do we know FOR SURE that you only took toco and not something else?

So far there is no proof (before after pics) of someone who regrew their hair. You are the only one and you have 5 posts... what are we supposed to think?

----------


## mrmanns

> lol I joined this forum way before you... how could I've had an agenda to "troll" you if your thread didn't even exist yet....
> 
> 
> shills have agendas?? huh?? paranoid much? what's wrong?


 My thread? I didn't even post it, that's how much you've been paying attention

And any admin on here can confirm I've been a lurker here for a while from my ip

Goodluck on your hairloss, if you even have any. Maybe you're a shill for those transplant companies 

But I'm not going to assume anymore, like I told you. Real people will believe the power of toco

----------


## greatjob!

I really don't believe mrmanns has the slightest clue what the definition of a "shill" is. It is however becoming entertaining. BTW your pictures show absolutely zero evidence of anything, sorry....

----------


## mrmanns

> btw, your pictures mean nothing. How do we know FOR SURE that you only took toco and not something else?
> 
> So far there is no proof (before after pics) of someone who regrew their hair. You are the only one and you have 5 posts... what are we supposed to think?


 I can 100% not care if you believe me or not

I told you and everybody else I stumbled upon toco on accident since I bodybuild 

Bodybuilders take it to combat hairloss while training

Like I said too I guess I'm the toco farmer since I'm not promoting any companies, I must own a farm... smh

----------


## mrmanns

> I really don't believe mrmanns has the slightest clue what the definition of a "shill" is. It is however becoming entertaining. BTW your pictures show absolutely zero evidence of anything, sorry....


 and I can absolutely give a shit what you think

amazing I try to help people and this is how I'm treated

----------


## mrmanns

If any of you smartasses would actually right click and save my images you will see when they were taken in properties 

I guess for 3 years I'm the first person that just stopped balding for no reason . . . 

You would think by now it woulda been worse, but no toco stopped it

And you're taking my word for it when theres a shitload of articles saying toco regrows hairs smh

THE TOCO FARMER has spoken smh

Shoutout to all the people who are going to regrow hair on it though, the ones who actually have a brain still

----------


## 2020

fine whatever.

until someone posts good results or some new research confirms that toco does indeed regrow hair, most of us will remain skeptical.

thousands of things have been suggested to help with hair loss.. so far only two of them work

----------


## goldbondmafia

Wet hair generally makes all hair look thinner which is why im assuming greatjob! doesnt believe your pictures prove anything..

Try and take another pic from today with dry hair or even post pics from 2009 that u have from facebook compared to new photos from today ...? 

appreciate the pics tho i think toco would be a good supplement to take regardless for weightlifters so i bought some to try it out.

----------


## mrmanns

> fine whatever.
> 
> until someone posts good results or some new research confirms that toco does indeed regrow hair, most of us will remain skeptical.
> 
> thousands of things have been suggested to help with hair loss.. so far only two of them work


 look take it for yourself, it isn't even that expensive 

Come here in 3 months. Or even the first 2 weeks and tell me if your beard doesn't grow like a chiapet 

I keep mentioning the beard since it's the part of your body guys shave everyday

Do this experiment, let your hair grow for 5 days and see how long your beard grows

Save it off while on toco on the second week regrow your beard again and WATCH how fast it grows back

It is giving your body whatever it needs to maintain healthy hair

It will do the same for your head

The only reason why I kept taking it is because I saw the affect it was doing on my face, how it would just grow hair like crazy

And it proved to be right for my head

----------


## mrmanns

> Wet hair generally makes all hair look thinner which is why im assuming greatjob! doesnt believe your pictures prove anything..
> 
> Try and take another pic from today with dry hair or even post pics from 2009 that u have from facebook compared to new photos from today ...? 
> 
> appreciate the pics tho i think toco would be a good supplement to take regardless for weightlifters so i bought some to try it out.


 thanks

I will post tomorrow with my hair dry and you will see the same scar you see on the picture from 2009

----------


## 2020

> look take it for yourself, it isn't even that expensive


 actually it is... I can't find one reputable dealer.

----------


## 2020

it seems that Toco-8 increases testosterone... if that's the case, that would make your hair situation even worse.

----------


## mrmanns

> it seems that Toco-8 increases testosterone... if that's the case, that would make your hair situation even worse.


 I know but I don't know why it regrows hair. I just know it does

----------


## mrmanns

Here's a picture I took for you people before I knockout

Those two companies compete with each other but I buy whatever I can afford at the time

Toco 8 is more expensive

But whats next? I collect these because they're pretty? lol

Goodnight

----------


## 2020

> Here's a picture I took for you people before I knockout
> 
> Those two companies compete with each other but I buy whatever I can afford at the time
> 
> Toco 8 is more expensive
> 
> But whats next? I collect these because they're pretty? lol
> 
> Goodnight


 i could only find TOCO-SORB on amazon.. is there any difference between those two?


I also found that best selling hair-vitamin on amazon includes toco as well, so apparently someone though that it was worthwhile to include it... hmm

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

This is TRX all over again.

----------


## clandestine

Not enough people have tried it yet to verify efficacy (or lack thereof) for this to be TRX2 all over again.

----------


## gutted

> Not enough people have tried it yet to verify efficacy (or lack thereof) for this to be TRX2 all over again.


 And how many people have supposedely "tried" TRX2 to verify efficacy??? 2/3?
Half, if not all of those people were on various other treatments along with trx2 which in my opinion is the wrong thing to be doing to see whether or not it has indeed affected thier hair, in a good or bad way. 
Most of those people gave up after 3-6 months on it. No patience?
Most of them were norwood 2-3(or pretty old in age) - More damage = takes more time to heal.
And most of them expected miracle growth to occur!

Their clinical study results prove efficacy, not some useless thread, possibly full of shills/and people frustrated they arent seeing miracle results in 18 days rather than 18 months.  

I took Tocotrienols from Life Extention prior to trx2, Put it this way TRX2 works MUCH better than Tocotrienols (in my experience)!

----------


## sanook

> keep the shilling coming, first picture is from 2009. Second picture is from today. I take you not believing thats my results as a complement 
> 
> First picture was taken from my lg touch, second picture was from my droid. Ever heard about upgrading phones
> 
> Want my verizon receipts too shill ?
> 
> And I don't care for my reputation, you can believe me or not. At this point I give two shits about unappreciative people like yourself
> 
> Go trick people into spending money on useless garbage, go post your lame blogspot urls and other urls on your fake stock accounts
> ...


  :Confused: 

*All I said was your photos aren't up to scratch, which they aren't.*

If it's as good as you say it is then take another photo under the same conditions (lighting/angle etc.). 

Really no need to act like a lunatic with unfounded personal attacks. People on here just want CLEAR proof before they believe anything. 

Like I already said, I appreciate your effort. So try not to be so sensitive.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

Ok, this stupid thread NEEDS to be -and SHOULD- be taken down. I'm sick and tired of people popping up every now and then with some new crazy claim. Lasers, Mico, TRX, and now this Toco .... and what's even worse is that a lot of people actually believe these lunatics and their absurd claims. No wonder the snake oil industry can make billions of dollars on the backs of the gullible. It's so easy to fool people. It's easier than taking candy from a baby.

So basically there's a cure for baldness (this Toco crap) but it's a secret that apparently only a few know about. Wow! I didn't know it was so easy to cure baldness. God damn it! And we've been suffering all this time and going through shit and spending thousands of dollars on HTs and drugs....and it was as simple as taking some stupid vitamin or whatever that shit (Toco) is. Huh! Sometimes a lie is too big or stupid to believe.

----------


## clandestine

> Most of those people gave up after 3-6 months on it. No patience?
> Most of them were norwood 2-3(or pretty old in age) - More damage = takes more time to heal.
> And most of them expected miracle growth to occur!


 We have members who tried TRX2 for around 9 months, some longer. Maybe I'm just hungover mate, but I can't see what you're getting at.

----------


## clandestine

> Ok, this stupid thread NEEDS to be -and SHOULD- be taken down. I'm sick and tired of people popping up every now and then with some new crazy claim. Lasers, Mico, TRX, and now this Toco .... and what's even worse is that a lot of people actually believe these lunatics and their absurd claims. No wonder the snake oil industry can make billions of dollars on the backs of the gullible. It's so easy to fool people. It's easier than taking candy from a baby.
> 
> So basically there's a cure for baldness (this Toco crap) but it's a secret that apparently only a few know about. Wow! I didn't know it was so easy to cure baldness. God damn it! And we've been suffering all this time and going through shit and spending thousands of dollars on HTs and drugs....and it was as simple as taking some stupid vitamin or whatever that shit (Toco) is. Huh! Sometimes a lie is too big or stupid to believe.


 Wonderful post, Victim. Good contribution.

Just an aside, have you tried toco personally? Are you then able to make accurate statements regarding efficacy of said treatment? Or what you're saying merely conjecture?

----------


## klsee1

Personally I think TOCO / TocoSorb works for improving hair thinning / regrowth as long as the follicle cells are active... and it takes time for TOCO / TocoSorb to rescue / improve these cells and hairs...  

Here is a personal experience after using TOCO / TocoSorb... http://www.michaelmooney.net/hair.html....

----------


## gutted

> We have members who tried TRX2 for around 9 months, some longer. Maybe I'm just hungover mate, but I can't see what you're getting at.


 How long do merck say to take propecia for? 12-18 months before results are fully visible, possibly earlier due to the stage of hair loss your at. Its the same timeframe you should give ANY treatment your on to see if it has benifited you or not.

As stated earlier some of those members (a group of 3/4?)  were not soley using trx2, which brings in variables, so thier word is hardly reliable.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

> Wonderful post, Victim. Good contribution.
> 
> Just an aside, have you tried toco personally? Are you then able to make accurate statements regarding efficacy of said treatment? Or what you're saying merely conjecture?


 Thanks, clandestine. 

No. I've never tried toco myself. But claims like "it grows hair like crazy" is more than enough for me to know it's not legit or credible. Something that works that good (to thicken/grow hair) won't be a secret. If it sounds too good to be true then most likely it is.

----------


## Conpecia

Again, I am going to give it a shot for 2012 because of the study mentioned several times in this thread, the relatively cheap cost of a 3 month supply of the same pill used in the study, and sheer curiosity. Am I under the impression that taking this pill will cure my hair loss once and for all and bring me to a thick NW1 or 0? Of course not. But it may help keep what I have left before more advanced treatments are available, so it's worth a shot. I will post results should I see any improvements. We should be more scientific about things in this forum instead of bickering all the time.

----------


## Conpecia

> Personally I think TOCO / TocoSorb works for improving hair thinning / regrowth as long as the follicle cells are active... and it takes time for TOCO / TocoSorb to rescue / improve these cells and hairs...  
> 
> Here is a personal experience after using TOCO / TocoSorb... http://www.michaelmooney.net/hair.html....


 Excellent site.

----------


## doesitwork

First, tocotrienols are not vitamin E, from a scientific standpoint. Only d-alpha tocopherol is vitamin E. 

Next, the way that tocotrienols might work is by their antioxidant action reducing super oxide, or other reactive oxygen species, which are destructive oxidative molecules that damage hair follicles. 

If improvements in microcirculation are involved, well, that might give an additive effect.

"Vitamin E helps with the growth of capillaries. When there are more capillaries, the circulation improves and it is thought that the improved circulation to the scalp is the trigger for preventing hair loss."

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

----------


## doesitwork

> Again, I am going to give it a shot for 2012 because of the study mentioned several times in this thread, the relatively cheap cost of a 3 month supply of the same pill used in the study, and sheer curiosity. Am I under the impression that taking this pill will cure my hair loss once and for all and bring me to a thick NW1 or 0? Of course not. But it may help keep what I have left before more advanced treatments are available, so it's worth a shot. I will post results should I see any improvements. We should be more scientific about things in this forum instead of bickering all the time.


 Sounds smart. Just remember, it takes at least five months, and maybe more like eight months before any real solution is going to have an effect.

I've tried Toco-Sorb along with a doctor friend and we both saw a significant improvement in our hair count, which friends and family NOTICED. It's not a maybe. I had a friend who I hadn't seen in two years who said the difference in my hair was quite clear.

I had one friend who I hadn't seen in several months say first thing, "Your hair is thicker. You look younger. What are you doing?"

----------


## doesitwork

> Thanks, clandestine. 
> 
> No. I've never tried toco myself. But claims like "it grows hair like crazy" is more than enough for me to know it's not legit or credible. Something that works that good (to thicken/grow hair) won't be a secret. If it sounds too good to be true then most likely it is.


 Like crazy is crazy, but it worked for me - enough that friends and family ALL said they noticed a change in my hair thickness, meaning the number of hairs on my hair, especially up front, where I had lost the most. His barber noticed it along with everyone he works with.

But it does take at five to eight months. Five for me and six for my doctor friend. And the study was an eight month study. I assume because they wanted to capture the most effect with the most of their subjects.

----------


## doesitwork

> Thanks, clandestine. 
> 
> No. I've never tried toco myself. But claims like "it grows hair like crazy" is more than enough for me to know it's not legit or credible. Something that works that good (to thicken/grow hair) won't be a secret. If it sounds too good to be true then most likely it is.


 Like crazy is crazy, but it worked for me - enough that friends and family ALL said they noticed a change in my hair thickness, meaning the number of hairs on my hair, especially up front, where I had lost the most. And my friend, who is a doctor had the same effect. And his barber noticed it along with everyone he works with.

But it does take at five to eight months. Five for me and six for my doctor friend. And the study was an eight month study. I assume because they wanted to capture the most effect with the most of their subjects.

----------


## doesitwork

> Toco 8 is definitely potent, watch how fast a shaven beard grows back. You'll see it the first week you're on it
> 
> I'll say give it about 3 months for you see real hair growth on your scalp, before then you'll see little fuzz hairs growing


 I noticed it in five months. I'd say don't give up the ship in three months. At five not only me but friends noticed it, too.

----------


## 2020

how come so many newly registered users report good results, when everyone else says that it's useless  :Confused:

----------


## Morbo

Take a wild guess.  :Big Grin:

----------


## KeepHoping

How much of the Toco-sorb do you guys take a day?

----------


## 2020

> How much of the Toco-sorb do you guys take a day?


 toco-sorb and toco-8 are very different...

----------


## KeepHoping

Let me rephrase that, anyone that takes toco-sorb, can you please tell me how much you take a day.  Thank you.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

> how come so many newly registered users report good results, when everyone else says that it's useless


 Hmmm...why. Maybe because the "so many newly registered users" are the same person. Come on. Does it really need to be answered. You see, every now and then we get a crook who tries to make a quick buck by promoting some snake oil. He comes to this forum and similar others and makes like 20 different screen names and makes up some fake bull shit testimonies...... well, you get the idea.

----------


## clandestine

Personally I would withhold judgement before efficacy of said treatment can be verified or debunked. We should refrain from making assumptions based on personal opinion when considering possible treatments.

That said, I find 'doesitwork's posts to be hilarious. Troll perhaps.

----------


## doesitwork

Since I always look for medical journal studies before I "try" something, my Dad calls me a "Walking Enclyclopedia with a Sense of Humor," so thanks.

The tocotrienols DO have a published placebo-controlled trial and that's why I feel like it's worth talking about. 

The same is true of Nizoral shampoo, and iron deficiency being associated with hair loss, as well with some weaker data on taking biotin.

The fatal question is "Does it have published data that supports it?"
Which of course means, "Does it work?"

----------


## doesitwork

> How much of the Toco-sorb do you guys take a day?


 I started with two a day, but it's known to be quite safe and actually has what we might call "anti-aging' effects, such as lowers cholesterol, protects the prostate from cancer, etc...

So I upped it to three a day, because my hair grew thicker. And whoever said it makes a beard grow faster is right. Damn, I hate having to shave more...
Then four a day, because after reading on the www.michaelmooney.net/hair.html that his hair got darker - I figured why not take a bit more. 

Looking at the science, tocotrienols are far more potent in some portions of metabolism than vitamin E, as far as protecting tissue from damage, so I see them as helping keep me younger.

----------


## doesitwork

> how come so many newly registered users report good results, when everyone else says that it's useless


 There's a bodybuilding site that has dozens of posts on tocotrienols and I'd say about half of them say they grew more hair. One of the guys there told me to check this site for more good information.

And I see people have looked at some of the same things I have, including Nizoral shampoo, which it seems has an effect, although weaker than tocotrienols. Nizoral, like tocotrienols, has published studies, and has a known potential mode of action, so it's not some mystery sauce dreamed up by marketers.

----------


## 2020

> There's a bodybuilding site that has dozens of posts on tocotrienols and I'd say about half of them say they grew more hair. One of the guys there told me to check this site for more good information.
> 
> And I see people have looked at some of the same things I have, including Nizoral shampoo, which it seems has an effect, although weaker than tocotrienols. Nizoral, like tocotrienols, has published studies, and has a known potential mode of action, so it's not some mystery sauce dreamed up by marketers.


 ok, but I'm pretty sure that most of those people on that forum weren't suffering from MPB but instead from some temporary hair loss caused by steroids or whatever... 

how could toco make hair grow if a hair follicle is dead?

----------


## doesitwork

> ok, but I'm pretty sure that most of those people on that forum weren't suffering from MPB but instead from some temporary hair loss caused by steroids or whatever... 
> 
> Yessir - roid-related-alopecia. lol.
> 
> how could toco make hair grow if a hair follicle is dead?


 It can't. But if a follicle is just experiencing oxidative damage caused by reactive oxygen species (ROS), which has been pointed at in a published study [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10965354], and the antioxidant properties of specific tocotrienols neutralized the ROS, the follicle might become healthy, and thus it starts going through its normal growth phases.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> how could toco make hair grow if a hair follicle is dead?


 As the latest researches say, folicles don't die - even those in final balding stages, with shiny bald heads haven't exactly lost their hairs in scientific sense of the word. Roots and hair folicles are still there but have minatured to an extreme degree, due to DHT, that they are not visible.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> As the latest researches say, folicles don't die - even those in final balding stages, with shiny bald heads haven't exactly lost their hairs in scientific sense of the word. Roots and hair folicles are still there but have minatured to an extreme degree, due to DHT, that they are not visible.


 That is BIG news if true

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> That is BIG news if true


 It is true, but its not really helping much. The problem always was and still is how to activate these hair folicles to grow and behave like the rest of the healthy hair. The difference between us who are going bald and those who aren't is in genes. We inherited hairs that react poorly to DHT while the other people with full set of hair - all their hairs are resistant to DHT, thats why they never go bald. Life ain't fair, some people are simply born with better or worse set of genes, changing the genes would be a scientific miracle & BIG news if You ask me.

----------


## born

> It is true, but its not really helping much. The problem always was and still is how to activate these hair folicles to grow and behave like the rest of the healthy hair. The difference between us who are going bald and those who aren't is in genes. We inherited hairs that react poorly to DHT while the other people with full set of hair - all their hairs are resistant to DHT, thats why they never go bald. Life ain't fair, some people are simply born with better or worse set of genes, changing the genes would be a scientific miracle & BIG news if You ask me.


 that's what cotsarelis is working on. It would be the best treatment if a magical cream came out that could wake all the follicles.No need for transplants injections etc

----------


## 2020

> As the latest researches say, folicles don't die - even those in final balding stages, with shiny bald heads haven't exactly lost their hairs in scientific sense of the word. Roots and hair folicles are still there but have minatured to an extreme degree, due to DHT, that they are not visible.


 yes but those follicles shrunk due to DAMAGE. PERMANENT DAMAGE. No natural treatment will reverse it...

----------


## StressedToTheBald

I believe that if cure is ever developed - it will work from inside, nothing topical. The problem itself is inside, what happens to our hair, outside, is just a consequence.

Folicles are not permanently damaged. They don't die !
Please read the following:

January 4, 2011
"Dr. George Cotsarelis, chairman of the dermatology department at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine...
"...The follicles that make hair don't go away completely, but they become miniaturized, to the point where the hair they normally make to replace hair when it naturally falls out becomes microscopic and therefore invisible," Cotsarelis said.
There are still just as many stem cells in the bald scalp that can make hair as there are in the normal haired scalp, and that was an important and surprising finding, Cotsarelis said.
...However, those hoping for a treatment anytime soon will have to wait. "Taking something from the lab to the clinic often takes decades, so there's no treatment around the corner," Cotsarelis cautioned. "It's really going to take quite a while to figure this out.""

----------


## doesitwork

> It is true, but its not really helping much. The problem always was and still is how to activate these hair folicles to grow and behave like the rest of the healthy hair. The difference between us who are going bald and those who aren't is in genes. We inherited hairs that react poorly to DHT while the other people with full set of hair - all their hairs are resistant to DHT, thats why they never go bald. Life ain't fair, some people are simply born with better or worse set of genes, changing the genes would be a scientific miracle & BIG news if You ask me.


 Well, apparently there may be a way to thrwart genetics. 

If DHT exerts its destructive behavior by enlisting super oxide, which damages follicles, Search "superoxide" in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956962/ - this is where tocotrienols might come in, as these potent antioxidants can neutralize superoxide.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Well, apparently there may be a way to thrwart genetics. 
> 
> If DHT exerts its destructive behavior by enlisting super oxide, which damages follicles, Search "superoxide" in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956962/ - this is where tocotrienols might come in, as these potent antioxidants can neutralize superoxide.


 Many thanks for that link doesitwork, I'll have a good look into this study.

I recall reading somewhere btw. that vitamin E can help? in sense of providing more? oxigen to hair folicles - question is if this works topical or orally ? I doubt any topical form would do the trick as oxigen is delivered via bloodstream. Also vitamin E comes in at least 4 types..

This reminded me of something that might be related. Amino acid called Arginine is said to play vital role in nitric oxide which may also be crucial for fighting hair loss. Via protein supplement I am currently taking 3,000mg+ of L-Arginine daily and plan to increase - but this is my first month so I can't say if it does any good just yet, along with other stuff that I also use daily.

I already found sth about nitric oxide from the link You provided - seems that nitric oxide is a good one !

*"Nitric oxide (NO) initiates and maintains hair growth while superoxide inhibits hair growth. Use of arginine can enhance NO and promote angiogenesis for new hair growth.*[15]"

----------


## VictimOfDHT

> That is BIG news if true


 That's not "big news". It's a fact that completely bald heads have hair on them but the hairs are so tiny that you can barely see them. Which means the follicles are there but for some god damn reason they're producing "invisible" hairs.

----------


## KeepHoping

Does anyone know if there is a source to get toco-8 for cheap, because you need at least a bottle a month if you take two scoops.

----------


## clandestine

> Does anyone know if there is a source to get toco-8 for cheap, because you need at least a bottle a month if you take two scoops.


 Seconded. Where'd mrmanns run off to?

----------


## KeepHoping

Also is their really much difference between toco-sorb and something like this that is cheaper: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/HRG00...LAID=956279346

thanks.

----------


## 2020

> Also is their really much difference between toco-sorb and something like this that is cheaper: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/HRG00...LAID=956279346
> 
> thanks.


 toco-sorb IS NOT THE SAME as toco-8....

----------


## clandestine

What's the difference?

----------


## 2020

> What's the difference?


 not the same ingredients.

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/p...co-8-38-g.html


... there is a reason why toco-sorb is cheaper

----------


## StressedToTheBald

On first sight that toco 8 seems to offer higher concentration in the mix.. but also its much more expensive, so better calculate if You plan to purchase one or another..

----------


## 2020

but it doesn't have the same ingredients... only the toco-8 mix was patented. Others are just imitations

----------


## doesitwork

> but it doesn't have the same ingredients... only the toco-8 mix was patented. Others are just imitations


 There are three real Tocomin SupraBio products.

1. Jarrow Formulas makes Toco-Sorb.
2. Toco-8 by Primordial Performance uses the same raw material - Tocomin SupraBio
3. And Life Extension Foundation makes Super Absorbable Tocotrienols, which also uses the Tocomin SupraBio licensed raw material.

----------


## doesitwork

> On first sight that toco 8 seems to offer higher concentration in the mix.. but also its much more expensive, so better calculate if You plan to purchase one or another..


 The best price for the real tocotrienols is to buy Jarrow Toco-Sorb from swansonvitamins.com.

It's about half price of the toco-8 best price.

----------


## doesitwork

> Many thanks for that link doesitwork, I'll have a good look into this study.
> 
> I recall reading somewhere btw. that vitamin E can help? in sense of providing more? oxigen to hair folicles - question is if this works topical or orally ? I doubt any topical form would do the trick as oxigen is delivered via bloodstream. Also vitamin E comes in at least 4 types..
> 
> [/B][15]"[/U]


 Well, tocotrienols have as much as 60 times more activity than the d-alpha tocopherol form of vitamin E used orally. So if oxygenation is part of the mode of action, then tocotrienols would trump the popular d-alpha tocopherol.

----------


## clandestine

> The best price for the real tocotrienols is to buy Jarrow Toco-Sorb from swansonvitamins.com.
> 
> It's about half price of the toco-8 best price.


 doesitwork; Another user stated Toco-sorb contains different ingredients than Toco-8. From your experience, is it just as effective? Worth paying more for Toco-8? Curious to hear your opinion.

----------


## doesitwork

> doesitwork; Another user stated Toco-sorb contains different ingredients than Toco-8. From your experience, is it just as effective? Worth paying more for Toco-8? Curious to hear your opinion.


 All three "toco" products use the same Carotech Tocomin SupraBio ingredients. The tocotrienol balance is the same. Toco-8 added some bells and whistles, that don't make more hair grow. 

The bottom line is if you add them all up, Swansons sells the important tocotrienols for about half what the best price I found for Toco-8's equilibrant. 

If you know supplements, you've gotta love Swansonvitamins.com.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> It's about half price of the toco-8 best price.


 But the mix concentration per tablet is less than half comparing to toco-8. Thats why I said - calculate to find what the real best price is. For example - its not the same if one tablet of one product contains 120 mg of something and the other single tablet of another product goes with 50mg of the same something - then, if number of tabs are the same both products, even if the price of the first product is 2 times more expensive than the second, it still is overall cheaper - due to higher concentration.




> Well, tocotrienols have as much as 60 times more activity than the d-alpha tocopherol form of vitamin E used orally. So if oxygenation is part of the mode of action, then tocotrienols would trump the popular d-alpha tocopherol.


 Sounds interesting. It surely can't hurt, the only question is how much it can help in reality, will it boost regrowth in any way and make visible difference.. B vitamins for example are been often described as crucial and a must for hair loss, yet even when I used some crazy high amounts - 200mg of full B complex, it had no visible effect whatsoever. On and off I also used Biotin, the H Vitamin, Hair Vitamin, I was going like 10,000 units daily - and no, no results what that either..

I now give advantage to other ingredients over vitamins and minerals. Sterols in beta sitosterol and ganodermic acid from ganoderma lucidum will be my bet in the time ahead, as they are shown by studies to be natural inhibitors of DHT - DHT is the killer of our hair. That doesn't mean I'm not using vitamins and minerals, I use them all right and each day, its just I don't I don't currently mark them as main warriors in my quest against baldness.

----------


## KeepHoping

doesitwork: If one decides to take toco-sorb, how many pills would you take a day?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

pictures? or.....?

----------


## doesitwork

[QUOTE=StressedToTheBald;48826]But the mix concentration per tablet is less than half comparing to toco-8. Thats why I said - calculate to find what the real best price is. For example - its not the same if one tablet of one product contains 120 mg of something and the other single tablet of another product goes with 50mg of the same something - then, if number of tabs are the same both products, even if the price of the first product is 2 times more expensive than the second, it still is overall cheaper - due to higher concentration.

Actually, I did add it up wrong. Swanson's charges 51% of the cost of Toco-8 from ProSource.net for Toco-Sorb, which gives us 57% as much tocotrienols. So it's a slightly better (6%) deal to buy Toco-Sorb from Swanson. Shipping cost at Swanson is $4.99, which beats just about everyone. I don't what ProSource charges for shipping, but I bet it's more than $4.99.

So there's my two cents.

----------


## Conpecia

> There are three real Tocomin SupraBio products.
> 
> 1. Jarrow Formulas makes Toco-Sorb.
> 2. Toco-8 by Primordial Performance uses the same raw material - Tocomin SupraBio
> 3. And Life Extension Foundation makes Super Absorbable Tocotrienols, which also uses the Tocomin SupraBio licensed raw material.


 I purchased Tocomin SupraBio from Nutraceutical Sciences Institute. 120 softgels with 60 mg of the complex per pill. It also contains 26 IU's of d-alpha tocopherol.

A fellow at another baldness site who goes by the name "polaris" apparently contacted the VP of Carotech, the company that manufactures Tocomin SupraBio, and the VP recommended the NCI product to him. Here is a copy of that post: 

_The manufacturer of Tocomin SupraBio is Carotech (http://www.carotech.net).
There are a number of stories about tocotrienols on this website and on one of the pdfs, they actually showed a before & after picture of their hair growth study subject. You can download this story on their homepage, its title "TocominSupraBio: Hair Loss prevention and beyond".

My notes on this Tocomin SupraBio Hair growth formulation patent:
- it contains mixture of tocotrienols and some tocopherol - good antioxidants
- could it be due to the improved absorption of the tocotrienol? "SupraBio" is actually the name given to the delivery system that has another patent.
- dosage - 100mg/day for 8 months, consistently.
- Most effective - increase hair count
- Side effects - nil

I wrote to their VP months ago and here are his recommendations on where to get the Tocomin SupraBio softgels. I believe these are companies in the US :
Quote:
Tocomin SupraBio soft gel capsules can be purchased from the following :-
i) VITACOST's TOCOMIN SUPRABIO - http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Tocomin-Sup ... ol-Complex. You can purchase this product from the website (Tel : 1 800 381 0759).

ii) TOCO-SORB by Jarrow Formulas - http://www.jarrow.com/product/274/Toco_ ... _Toco_Life. This product can be puchased from your local health food stores. Or you can call them at this no : (310) 204-6936

iiii) CAROTEC's Tocomin SupraBio - http://www.carotec.com/product/56/108. You can call this company at 1-800-522-4279

The above are only three examples of a number of companies that carry Tocomin SupraBio. There are other products in the markert with a combination of tocotrienol (Tocomin) with other ingredients / phytonutrients. What is most important is that when you purchase the product - ensure that it carries the logo and tradename - Tocomin or Tocomin Suprabio on the product label.

This would ensure that you are getting the right product with ingredients that are with proven science.


I have read elsewhere that tocopherol will only get in tocotrienol's way when it is present in ratio greater than 30%, and in the effect of reducing cholesterol, not sure if it may affect hair regrowth since the mechanisms are different. But this Tocomin SupraBio has tocopherol at ratio below 30%.

- cheers!_




So, one issue we need to figure out is whether the tocopherol really does inhibit the functionality of the tocotrienol complex in percentages higher than 30%. And another issue is whether this NCI product is legitimate or not. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be, particularly when the people at Carotech specifically recommend it. Any thoughts?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I purchased Tocomin SupraBio from Nutraceutical Sciences Institute. 120 softgels with 60 mg of the complex per pill. It also contains 26 IU's of d-alpha tocopherol.
> 
> A fellow at another baldness site who goes by the name "polaris" apparently contacted the VP of Carotech, the company that manufactures Tocomin SupraBio, and the VP recommended the NCI product to him. Here is a copy of that post: 
> 
> _The manufacturer of Tocomin SupraBio is Carotech (http://www.carotech.net).
> There are a number of stories about tocotrienols on this website and on one of the pdfs, they actually showed a before & after picture of their hair growth study subject. You can download this story on their homepage, its title "TocominSupraBio: Hair Loss prevention and beyond".
> 
> My notes on this Tocomin SupraBio Hair growth formulation patent:
> - it contains mixture of tocotrienols and some tocopherol - good antioxidants
> ...


 



EDIT: I see where all the fuss is coming from


after Renokin.... I realized even "studies" with shit loads of grafts and supposed trial participants can't be trusted....

----------


## 2020

am I the only one who sees this as an obvious marketing ploy?  :Frown:

----------


## doesitwork

> But the mix concentration per tablet is less than half comparing to toco-8. Thats why I said - calculate to find what the real best price is. For example - its not the same if one tablet of one product contains 120 mg of something and the other single tablet of another product goes with 50mg of the same something - then, if number of tabs are the same both products, even if the price of the first product is 2 times more expensive than the second, it still is overall cheaper - due to higher concentration.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds interesting. It surely can't hurt, the only question is how much it can help in reality, will it boost regrowth in any way and make visible difference.. B vitamins for example are been often described as crucial and a must for hair loss, yet even when I used some crazy high amounts - 200mg of full B complex, it had no visible effect whatsoever. On and off I also used Biotin, the H Vitamin, Hair Vitamin, I was going like 10,000 units daily - and no, no results what that either..
> 
> I now give advantage to other ingredients over vitamins and minerals. Sterols in beta sitosterol and ganodermic acid from ganoderma lucidum will be my bet in the time ahead, as they are shown by studies to be natural inhibitors of DHT - DHT is the killer of our hair. That doesn't mean I'm not using vitamins and minerals, I use them all right and each day, its just I don't I don't currently mark them as main warriors in my quest against baldness.


 


> I purchased Tocomin SupraBio from Nutraceutical Sciences Institute. 120 softgels with 60 mg of the complex per pill. It also contains 26 IU's of d-alpha tocopherol.
> 
> A fellow at another baldness site who goes by the name "polaris" apparently contacted the VP of Carotech, the company that manufactures Tocomin SupraBio, and the VP recommended the NCI product to him. Here is a copy of that post: 
> 
> _The manufacturer of Tocomin SupraBio is Carotech (http://www.carotech.net).
> There are a number of stories about tocotrienols on this website and on one of the pdfs, they actually showed a before & after picture of their hair growth study subject. You can download this story on their homepage, its title "TocominSupraBio: Hair Loss prevention and beyond".
> 
> My notes on this Tocomin SupraBio Hair growth formulation patent:
> - it contains mixture of tocotrienols and some tocopherol - good antioxidants
> ...


 It's published that vitamin E when there's more than 30% inhibits the absorption of tocotrienols. I read that study. I could find it if pressed.

That's why I take tocotrienols first thing in the morning with a few other supplements but NOT with vitamin E. The tocotrienols naturally are accompanied by a little vitamin E in the palm oil source, but not enough E to impede absorption of the tocotrienols.

So there are several companies that have licensed the Tocomin SupraBio. So just look for Tocomin SupraBio if you want to be sure what you're getting. I also had detailed communication with the Carotech people. He presented data to me that showed that they had enhanced their product's absorption so that their product was about three times better utilized than some other tocotrienol products, such as DeltaGold.

----------


## Conpecia

Sounds good, doesitwork. 

2020, do you think a company like carotech that has the capacity to engineer a vitamin complex would at the same time pay actual, physical money to someone like mrmanns to come here and talk about beard hair? Clandestine found a study, posted it, and people are weighing in. Some, like me, see it as worth 10 dollars a month to try out. If it doesn't work, I'll be the first one to say so. I'm all for a good conspiracy theory but man, you gotta pick your battles.

----------


## clandestine

Conpecia; Which product do you think you'll end up going with? Sorry if you've already mentioned previously.

----------


## Conpecia

> Conpecia; Which product do you think you'll end up going with? Sorry if you've already mentioned previously.


 
http://www.vitacost.com/Vitacost-Toc...g-120-Softgels

This is what I'm rolling with; been taking it since Monday night. Nothing to report so far, but it's been 5 days, and we're talking about an 8 month experiment. 

Also on Propecia and Nizoral. Propecia has worked wonders for me. I've been taking it since I was about 21 and just turned 27. My crown, which was thinning rapidly (terrifying to take a shower back then) has stabilized and remained the same in those six years, and I've had no side effects (apparently the sides are a big deal around here, guess I was one of the lucky ones). 

My hairline is a different story... slowly going, but enough remains to make an effort with stuff like this, which might thwart the necessity of a transplant and allow me to ride the wave to 2015/16 and the new treatments.

Just started Nizoral about two months ago. Went through a small shed, nothing major, and am giving this about 6 months before I post any kind of result. 

I think the big key is to go with something that has Tocomin Suprabio specifically. The NSI stuff was pretty cheap, and seemed to reflect the same complex used in this study everyone is throwing around, so I figured I'll bite the bullet and give it a shot. If nothing else, I get plenty of vitamin E  :Cool:

----------


## Conpecia

EDIT:

For clarity, the "NSI stuff" is the vitacost brand. It's produced by Nutraceutical Sciences Institute. Sorry for any confusion.

----------


## 67mph

...in response to this thread and it's posts...i'm none the wiser!

Hope no one, and none of you take offence with my response but there it is.

Hairloss and the research involved is one huge mine field and this thread is a prime example, i just don't know where to go with the informative and uninformative information!?

That said, good luck guys, 57mph

----------


## 2020

> EDIT:
> 
> For clarity, the "NSI stuff" is the vitacost brand. It's produced by Nutraceutical Sciences Institute. Sorry for any confusion.


 why didn't you edit your previous post instead of making a new post...

----------


## Conpecia

Because I was on my cell phone and it's quicker that way.

----------


## Conpecia

> ...in response to this thread and it's posts...i'm none the wiser!
> 
> Hope no one, and none of you take offence with my response but there it is.
> 
> Hairloss and the research involved is one huge mine field and this thread is a prime example, i just don't know where to go with the informative and uninformative information!?
> 
> That said, good luck guys, 57mph


 
That's all good; can't say I blame you. Hopefully later this year I can post some results, for better or for worse, and at least give another impression. It does seem to have both supporters and critics.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> why didn't you edit your previous post instead of making a new post...


 why'd you bother asking such a stupid question?

----------


## 2020

because I'm sure he's just trying to boost his post count to appear more reputable...

----------


## Conpecia

> because I'm sure he's just trying to boost his post count to appear more reputable...


 You're starting to piss me off. You look like an absolute idiot coming in here and saying stuff like that. What a stupid way to "boost my post count." Seriously. That makes no sense, whatsoever. 

Not to mention you've been here less than half the time I have and you've got over twice as many posts. Who's trying to look credible? Maybe you work at a competing company and are trying to take sales away from carotech?

(Read that last sentence again. See how ridiculous that sounds? That is you in this thread.)

I have no problem with you being skeptical of the treatment in question, but I do have a problem with you implying I have dubious motives, when I'm the one biting the bullet and spending my money on something that might not work at all. I'm also willing to take the time to come back and report whatever I find, for better or for worse, to the rest of the community. So which one of us is helping find possible treatments for MPB?

Channel your avatar and Let It Be, George. Go look for UFO's or something...

----------


## Conpecia

Update:

It's been a week since I started with two 60mg softgels/day of the tocomin suprabio. 

Yesterday I was looking in the mirror and I noticed some small bumps below my neck, near the collar of my shirt. I pulled down my shirt and noticed several more, then took my shirt off and saw they were all over my chest. I freaked out for about ten seconds, then realized what they are: hairs coming in. I've got I guess about an average amount of hair on my chest as it is, and the bumps are limited to the areas where I have chest hair. Nothing to report on yet as far as head hair goes, but at least some hair is growing, though I may risk looking like a gorilla in 8 months...

Looks like Mrmanns was right about facial hair too... mine's growing back faster, darker, and higher up on my cheeks than normal. Hopefully this is translating to my head in some form...

I'll keep you guys posted if there are any changes. Did anyone else who has taken tocomin have increased body hair?

----------


## gutted

> Update:
> 
> It's been a week since I started with two 60mg softgels/day of the tocomin suprabio. 
> 
> Yesterday I was looking in the mirror and I noticed some small bumps below my neck, near the collar of my shirt. I pulled down my shirt and noticed several more, then took my shirt off and saw they were all over my chest. I freaked out for about ten seconds, then realized what they are: hairs coming in. I've got I guess about an average amount of hair on my chest as it is, and the bumps are limited to the areas where I have chest hair. Nothing to report on yet as far as head hair goes, but at least some hair is growing, though I may risk looking like a gorilla in 8 months...
> 
> Looks like Mrmanns was right about facial hair too... mine's growing back faster, darker, and higher up on my cheeks than normal. Hopefully this is translating to my head in some form...
> 
> I'll keep you guys posted if there are any changes. Did anyone else who has taken tocomin have increased body hair?


 when i was on it, i THINK i did notice some sexual sides, although i really cannot say it was the toco as i was also on inneov which contains beta sis, which is a known dht blocker.

But one of the reasons why i dropped it was because of this percieved sexual side - low libido, weak erections etc. 
Could you keep an eye out on that and report about this too. i hope you've not been on dht blockers before too.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Update:
> 
> It's been a week since I started with two 60mg softgels/day of the tocomin suprabio. 
> 
> Yesterday I was looking in the mirror and I noticed some small bumps below my neck, near the collar of my shirt. I pulled down my shirt and noticed several more, then took my shirt off and saw they were all over my chest. I freaked out for about ten seconds, then realized what they are: hairs coming in. I've got I guess about an average amount of hair on my chest as it is, and the bumps are limited to the areas where I have chest hair. Nothing to report on yet as far as head hair goes, but at least some hair is growing, though I may risk looking like a gorilla in 8 months...
> 
> Looks like Mrmanns was right about facial hair too... mine's growing back faster, darker, and higher up on my cheeks than normal. Hopefully this is translating to my head in some form...
> 
> I'll keep you guys posted if there are any changes. Did anyone else who has taken tocomin have increased body hair?


 Please keep us updated. Surprising first results, I'd freak out too, don't need any more hair on the body, only head. This reminded me.. I've read that unwanted body and facial hair can be side effect of minoxidil (rogaine) - do You use minoxidil in any form as well ?

----------


## clandestine

> when i was on it, i THINK i did notice some sexual sides, although i really cannot say it was the toco as i was also on inneov which contains beta sis, which is a known dht blocker.
> 
> But one of the reasons why i dropped it was because of this percieved sexual side - low libido, weak erections etc. 
> Could you keep an eye out on that and report about this too. i hope you've not been on dht blockers before too.


 Potential sexual sides were not mentioned anywhere as a product of using tocotrienols. 

"_Palm tocotrienol complex is a natural food supplement with no known side effects at the plasma concentration achieved via oral supplementation._"

Please elaborate, if there is literally no mention sides in relation to use of tocotrienols, why would you then make the assumption?

Thanks in advance for clarification.

----------


## gutted

> Potential sexual sides were not mentioned anywhere as a product of using tocotrienols. 
> 
> "_Palm tocotrienol complex is a natural food supplement with no known side effects at the plasma concentration achieved via oral supplementation._"
> 
> Please elaborate, if there is literally no mention sides in relation to use of tocotrienols, why would you then make the assumption?
> 
> Thanks in advance for clarification.


 its just something anecdotal and In my experience, i noticed low libido, but at the time i was taking other stuff too which had the potential to cause that side effect, hence why im asking for this to be monitored.

----------


## clandestine

> its just something anecdotal and In my experience, i noticed low libido, but at the time i was taking other stuff too which had the potential to cause that side effect, hence why im asking for this to be monitored.


 Alright, no worries. I was just curious as to your reasoning.

----------


## Conpecia

Gutted: no change in libido so far. I'm also on Propecia which is supposed to have pretty heavy effects on libido, but I haven't had any changes in the many years I've been on it. Probably not the best candidate to track tocomin's effect on libido since I am taking other stuff. 

Stressedtothebald: no minox, which makes the increase all the more curious. Hopefully it calms down; I want to keep my hair but not at the expense of reverting to a primate...

At the same time, the only sides that would really deter me are cognitive or sexual sides. More or less hair is the variable we're concerned with, so I'll keep forging ahead until the 8 months is over, unless the body and facial hair gets so ridiculous as to warrant more negative attention than baldness, lol. The irony.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Gutted: no change in libido so far. I'm also on Propecia which is supposed to have pretty heavy effects on libido, but I haven't had any changes in the many years I've been on it. Probably not the best candidate to track tocomin's effect on libido since I am taking other stuff. 
> 
> Stressedtothebald: no minox, which makes the increase all the more curious. Hopefully it calms down; I want to keep my hair but not at the expense of reverting to a primate...
> 
> At the same time, the only sides that would really deter me are cognitive or sexual sides. More or less hair is the variable we're concerned with, so I'll keep forging ahead until the 8 months is over, unless the body and facial hair gets so ridiculous as to warrant more negative attention than baldness, lol. The irony.


 Interesting. Well I don't know know if increased facial and body hairs is listed as propecia side effect, I don't recall seeing it anywhere. While now on beta sitosterol, I now tend to notice plenty of tiny blonde hairs even beyond the area of hair - not sure if I failed to notice them before nor if they are the result of beta sitosterol... maybe I'm just seeing what was there all the time and while I don't mind them in the area of where my hair should be.. I absolutely don't want them elsewhere, hopefuly its nothing and if they grow and turn colour it will only happen in the hair area.

----------


## Conpecia

Guys, can this stuff cause gynecomastia? 

All of a sudden I have a lot more "breast" tissue than I remember having. I'm a big guy, but I exercise regularly and have actually been losing weight, which is why I'm confused that my chest feels softer and looks less defined than it did a couple weeks ago. It could be that I'm losing muscle, and I'm also on finasteride which is known to cause gynecomastia in some people. 

If so, no dice. I value keeping my hair, but not at that price. Again, it could be that I'm just losing muscle mass. I don't really see how tocomin could cause man boobs, but a lot of you people are more versed in the science of these products than I am. I guess I'll start dieting and doing a lot of pushups and chest exercises and see what happens. But there is a noticeable difference. No tenderness or pain, just more fat or something. Jesus, what does it take to keep a head of hair...

----------


## 2020

> Guys, can this stuff cause gynecomastia?


 are you crazy?? this is just vitamin E.... 10000% that your new boobs are not from taking this vitamin

----------


## StressedToTheBald

Supposedly some doctors actually prescribe high doses of vitamin E to treat gynecomastia. Read the example here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bo...no-204242.html

So, I highly doubt that Your problem can be caused by vitamin E.
You should check the other stuff, something else You're using might be causing it.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

I might have found a link between high doses of vitamin E working as a blocker of androgen receptors in our hairs, I've posted here and would appreciate Your thoughts regarding the theory..
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7432

----------


## 2020

> I might have found a link between high doses of vitamin E working as a blocker of androgen receptors in our hairs, I've posted here and would appreciate Your thoughts regarding the theory..
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7432


 I'd like to believe that, but you're quoting this forum as your source... :Smile:

----------


## Conpecia

> Supposedly some doctors actually prescribe high doses of vitamin E to treat gynecomastia. Read the example here:
> http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bo...no-204242.html
> 
> So, I highly doubt that Your problem can be caused by vitamin E.
> You should check the other stuff, something else You're using might be causing it.


 Yeah I read that last night after I posted, so I doubt it could come from tocomin. 

I'm most likely overreacting. Again it's not like these pictures on google of guys walking around that should give Kramer and Frank Costanza a large investment, it's just a little more tissue than I remember having three months ago, even though I've lost weight. Most likely muscle mass lost. When you take stuff you become hypersensitive to any change in your body. 

I also was under the impression that propecia would cause man boobs right off the bat, not 6 years down the line.

----------


## clandestine

Conpecia; how goes it mate? Anything to report?

----------


## Conpecia

Unfortunately I've had some health issues the past couple weeks and have had to discontinue all treatments, including the tocomin, though it's very unlikely that the tocomin was causing anything. As soon as I'm feeling better I'll restart the 8 month experiment. Sorry to all who were waiting on results, but I've got to figure out what's going on with my health first. I'll update again once I'm cleared of all symptoms.

----------


## 2020

conpecia, which toco vitamins were you using? If it's toco-sorb or anything that is NOT *REAL PATENTED TOCO-8*, you are wasting time...

----------


## Conpecia

I was using a different brand and yes there was that issue of it not being toco-8 but in the week or two I took it I definitely grew new hair on my chest and seemed to be getting bumps on my temples indicating that something was going on. I think the key factor is that the product should be tocomin suprabio and nothing else but again I may be wrong. One of the things I was testing for was to see if that was the case or if you actually needed toco 8 but alas I have to wait until I get healed up to have a definitive answer for you guys.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Unfortunately I've had some health issues the past couple weeks and have had to discontinue all treatments, including the tocomin, though it's very unlikely that the tocomin was causing anything. As soon as I'm feeling better I'll restart the 8 month experiment. Sorry to all who were waiting on results, but I've got to figure out what's going on with my health first. I'll update again once I'm cleared of all symptoms.


 What else was included in Your treatment besides tocomin ?

----------


## Conpecia

Propecia, Nizoral shampoo. Been on the Propecia for about 5 years. Nizoral about 4 months. Waiting for lab results from the doc.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Propecia, Nizoral shampoo. Been on the Propecia for about 5 years. Nizoral about 4 months. Waiting for lab results from the doc.


 Please update us once the results are out, my bet would be on propecia..

----------


## StressedToTheBald

Variety of possible Propecia side effects:

"Side effects of finasteride include *impotence* (*1.1% to 18.5%*), *abnormal ejaculation* (*7.2%*), *decreased ejaculatory volume* (*0.9% to 2.8%*), *abnormal sexual function* (*2.5%*), *gynecomastia* (*2.2%*), *erectile dysfunction* (*1.3%*), *ejaculation disorder* (*1.2%*) and *testicular pain*... The PPI also states that patients have reported *persisting erectile dysfunction* *despite discontinuing the drug.* In December 2010, Merck added *depression* as a side effect of finasteride.[6]"

----------


## Maradona

definitely the propecia dude i got almost all the side effects stressedtobebald mentioned, he missed brain fog though but i recuperated well.

lay off the propecia and see where that takes ya.

----------


## 2020

> Variety of possible Propecia side effects:
> 
> "Side effects of finasteride include *impotence* (*1.1% to 18.5%*), *abnormal ejaculation* (*7.2%*), *decreased ejaculatory volume* (*0.9% to 2.8%*), *abnormal sexual function* (*2.5%*), *gynecomastia* (*2.2%*), *erectile dysfunction* (*1.3%*), *ejaculation disorder* (*1.2%*) and *testicular pain*... The PPI also states that patients have reported *persisting erectile dysfunction* *despite discontinuing the drug.* In December 2010, Merck added *depression* as a side effect of finasteride.[6]"


 why do you go around scaring people about taking propecia....I already explained to you the reason some people get "persisting" effects.

Propecia is a safe drug. Can you name another PRESCRIPTION drug with less side effects?

----------


## AgainstThis

Yeah, it's safe, that's why they took propecia.com down and are losing lawsuits left and right.

Get with the program Harrisson. Propecia was cool back when it was launched as the MIRACLE PILL but the cat was out of the bag soon enough.

It makes no sense that people in 2012 are still on that man-poison.

----------


## clandestine

> Yeah, it's safe, that's why they took propecia.com down and are losing lawsuits left and right.
> 
> Get with the program Harrisson. Propecia was cool back when it was launched as the MIRACLE PILL but the cat was out of the bag soon enough.
> 
> It makes no sense that people in 2012 are still on that man-poison.


 Propecia is rather helpful for those who don't have incidence of sides actually.

But let's keep the discussion oriented towards tocotrienols. I've ordered some in hopes of testing efficacy. I will start taking daily as soon as they arrive.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Yeah, it's safe, that's why they took propecia.com down and are losing lawsuits left and right.
> 
> Get with the program Harrisson. Propecia was cool back when it was launched as the MIRACLE PILL but the cat was out of the bag soon enough.
> 
> It makes no sense that people in 2012 are still on that man-poison.


 Exactly. Well said.

----------


## Conpecia

> Propecia is rather helpful for those who don't have incidence of sides actually.
> 
> But let's keep the discussion oriented towards tocotrienols. I've ordered some in hopes of testing efficacy. I will start taking daily as soon as they arrive.


 Way to carry on my friend. I'll be interested in seeing how things work. I myself will hopefully be good to go in two or three weeks and will restart the 8 month trial.

----------


## clandestine

> Way to carry on my friend. I'll be interested in seeing how things work. I myself will hopefully be good to go in two or three weeks and will restart the 8 month trial.


 No worries. Problem with me is I *really* need to find a retailer that carries them in Canada if I hope to be in this for the long term. For the first batch I've had to ship from the US, as you can imagine this is extremely costly.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> But let's keep the discussion oriented towards tocotrienols. I've ordered some in hopes of testing efficacy. I will start taking daily as soon as they arrive.


 What else are you doing?  Testing the efficacy claims of hair growth from this while taking anything else seems iffy, unless you've been just using fin and not seeing any loss or growth.

Now me...I'm considering this after discovering it here.  Right now I am...adverse...to screwing with my hormones chemically.  If doing something natural screws with my hormones fine.  Not chemically.

----------


## clandestine

> What else are you doing?  Testing the efficacy claims of hair growth from this while taking anything else seems iffy, unless you've been just using fin and not seeing any loss or growth.
> 
> Now me...I'm considering this after discovering it here.  Right now I am...adverse...to screwing with my hormones chemically.  If doing something natural screws with my hormones fine.  Not chemically.


 Not taking anything else currently.

As I've mentioned though, I'll only be able to continue any sort of trial if I can eventually find a retailer somewhere in Canada.

----------


## EXprettyboy

I've been on toco 8 for 3 weeks now. Beard growth has indeed accelerated. Temples stubbling with miniature bristles. promising.

I must admit I have resumed my regimen with renewed vigor and added several new agents so I can't report on toco 8 under controlled experiment conditions. My logic is simple; they all probably work modestly in their own right by different mechanisms... BUT I don't have time to test each individually and be repeatedly disappointed; My ONLY chance at cosmetically significant improvements is to blitz everything.

I never touched propecia.

Survive this next stretch of 1 or 2 years and a real solution will hopefully redeem us entirely.

----------


## clandestine

> I've been on toco 8 for 3 weeks now. Beard growth has indeed accelerated. Temples stubbling with miniature bristles. promising.
> 
> I must admit I have resumed my regimen with renewed vigor and added several new agents so I can't report on toco 8 under controlled experiment conditions. My logic is simple; they all probably work modestly in their own right by different mechanisms... BUT I don't have time to test each individually and be repeatedly disappointed; My ONLY chance at cosmetically significant improvements is to blitz everything.
> 
> I never touched propecia.
> 
> Survive this next stretch of 1 or 2 years and a real solution will hopefully redeem us entirely.


 Don't be afraid to disclose your current regimen mate. I for one am curious, as I'm sure others may be.

----------


## Jcm800

Yeah even tho I felt ripped off with TRX2 lol I'm willing to take a punt on this stuff, seems cheap n cheerful. 

So what's the 'best' brand that can be ordered from the UK anyone?

----------


## Maradona

> I've been on toco 8 for 3 weeks now. Beard growth has indeed accelerated. Temples stubbling with miniature bristles. promising.
> 
> I must admit I have resumed my regimen with renewed vigor and added several new agents so I can't report on toco 8 under controlled experiment conditions. My logic is simple; they all probably work modestly in their own right by different mechanisms... BUT I don't have time to test each individually and be repeatedly disappointed; My ONLY chance at cosmetically significant improvements is to blitz everything.
> 
> I never touched propecia.
> 
> Survive this next stretch of 1 or 2 years and a real solution will hopefully redeem us entirely.


 man  i thought this was snake oil in pill form but i wanna buy it now.
Share your regimen with your bald brothers man.

----------


## 2020

To all those people who reported thicker beard growth: that is a bad sign!

Apparently tocotrienols INCREASE testosterone production: 
http://www.hairloss-research.org/Upd...enols4-08.html

that's why your hair elsewhere gets thicker while the hair on your scalp gets thinner... the cause of that is extra testosterone

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Now me...I'm considering this after discovering it here.  Right now I am...adverse...to screwing with my hormones chemically.  If doing something natural screws with my hormones fine.  Not chemically.


 I'm 'screwing' my hormones naturally via beta sitosterol, saw palmetto, also soon will include ganoderma lucidum.. they all are proven DHT combatants. Still roughly in my 1st month here..

----------


## EXprettyboy

Nothing will reverse a bald scalp right now.... I know this.

But if your on the threshold, you can halt the progress and rejuvenate what you've got to some degree. So a troubled young man, receding and thinning, should be able to buy them-self some time and peace with an intensive regimen.

1. Rogaine extra strength.
     (I use too much of this and it has given me hair where I don't want it. I don't care cause I can get that removed).

2. [Resveratrol maximum strength] + [curcumin]
     the combination is patented in Italy for hair  loss. Expensive combo but definitely helped me somewhat. Resveratrol has a powerful antioxidant affect. Raises testosterone, burns fat, activates sirt 1 gene that supposedly improves health and slows cellular aging.

3. Lasers
   I used a hairmax laser comb for a long time and saw nothing. After further research I realized that the studies showing laser light to be beneficial delivered 7 joules of energy per 2cm squared. 5 diode combs deliver about 0.5 of a joule in a 20 minute session which is useless. I'm just finishing my homemade 170 diode helmet which I have high hopes for. theres a site that shows how to make one thats easy to find. a single diode costs about $3. A tricky expensive project.

4. Toco 8
     Apart from what we've heard here it increases testosterone, Is another powerful antioxidant, supposedly lengthens telomeres of DNA (slows aging).

5. GROH hair and nails
    Expensive. Marketed for women to improve hair health. looks like a total gimick. Recently pateted for hairloss though. big antioxidant. unique form of vitamin d. just started taking it last week.

6. Acai berry
    Big antioxidant in my antioxidant flood.

7. Fish oils omega 3 6 9
    No direct hairloss benefit, but apparently improves the skin and hairs quality, amongst a host of other benefits most notably sharpening the mind.

8. Drop free radical vices ie smoking or any other obviously unhealthy habits.


good luck

----------


## 2020

> I'm 'screwing' my hormones naturally via beta sitosterol, saw palmetto, also soon will include ganoderma lucidum.. they all are proven DHT combatants. Still roughly in my 1st month here..


 
.... Some men taking *saw palmetto* as an alternative treatment for an enlarged prostate and other health conditions have experienced sexual side effects, such as *erectile dysfunction*, *discomfort in and around the testicles* and *changes in sexual desire*, according to the National Institutes of Health.....

... Beta-sitosterol has also been linked to reports of *erectile dysfunction* (ED) and *loss of interest in sex*....

----------


## Kirby_

> .... Some men taking *saw palmetto* as an alternative treatment for an enlarged prostate and other health conditions have experienced sexual side effects, such as *erectile dysfunction*, *discomfort in and around the testicles* and *changes in sexual desire*, according to the National Institutes of Health.....
> 
> ... Beta-sitosterol has also been linked to reports of *erectile dysfunction* (ED) and *loss of interest in sex*....


 I had massively worse problems dabbling with Saw Palmetto than I've ever had with fin, side effects just like the ones you mention 2020, including nipple pains. Wish I'd never tried that awful stuff.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

Studies have been done showing that neither saw palmetto nor beta sitosterol induce serious or permanent effects as does propecia.

I have used saw palmetto in tea form, now I'm using it in tablet form, and I'm perfectly fine. Same goes for beta sitosterol, no problems whatsoever !

----------


## 2020

> Studies have been done showing that neither saw palmetto nor beta sitosterol induce serious or permanent effects as does propecia.


 same was done with propecia... in all of those studies, NO ONE got PERSISTENT side effects...




> I have used saw palmetto in tea form, now I'm using it in tablet form, and I'm perfectly fine. Same goes for beta sitosterol, no problems whatsoever !


 yes, and I've been using fin for quite some time and have zero problems as well...

----------


## gutted

> same was done with propecia... in all of those studies, NO ONE got PERSISTENT side effects...
> 
> 
> 
> yes, and I've been using fin for quite some time and have zero problems as well...


 side effects from both beta sis and propecia are ONLY noticed when discontinued after years of usage. The latter, propecia, more prononouced side effects occur.

Most people on propecia will "ride out" the sides and in the majority, the sides do go away due to hyperandrogeneicity taking place, testosterone is increased (libido is enhaced etc) and thus, they presume they are side effect free. But once they stop propecia they will notice these said side effects.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> side effects from both beta sis and propecia are ONLY noticed when discontinued after years of usage. The latter, propecia, more prononouced side effects occur.
> 
> Most people on propecia will "ride out" the sides and in the majority, the sides do go away due to hyperandrogeneicity taking place, testosterone is increased (libido is enhaced etc) and thus, they presume they are side effect free. But once they stop propecia they will notice these said side effects.


 Yeah, and all people who eat plenty of avocados end up impotent after they stop... Do not compare beta sitosterol and propecia in a way thats utterly inappropriate...

Beta sitosterol is safe.
Propecia is a hazardous drug that will soon be banned.

----------


## 2020

> Propecia is a hazardous drug that will soon be banned.


 There has been at least THREE LONG TERM studies with THOUSANDS OF SUBJECTS and only a tiny minority of them got side effects which went away after dropping fin.... 
If propecia was a hazardous drug, more people would have got PERMANENT side effects but so far no one did.
THOSE ARE THE FACTS.

****s sake, i'm either arguing with a troll or a retarded person

----------


## Winston

> Yeah, and all people who eat plenty of avocados end up impotent after they stop... Do not compare beta sitosterol and propecia in a way thats utterly inappropriate...
> 
> Beta sitosterol is safe.
> Propecia is a hazardous drug that will soon be banned.


 It has long been established that Beta-sitosteral can  cause loss of libido and impotence in some men who use the compound. Please get your facts straight and stop spreading misinformation on this forum!

Just like Propecia, Beta-sitosterol is LIKELY SAFE for most people when taken by mouth, however some men can not tolerate it.

Since these dietary supplements are not regulated by the FDA it is possible that they are far more dangerous to experiment with than a regulated product.

http://prostate.emedtv.com/beta-sito...e-effects.html

Can you please keep your uneducated opinions to a single thread on this forum? You are spamming every thread and it's unfair to people trying find accurate information.

----------


## gutted

> Yeah, and all people who eat plenty of avocados end up impotent after they stop... Do not compare beta sitosterol and propecia in a way thats utterly inappropriate...
> 
> Beta sitosterol is safe.
> Propecia is a hazardous drug that will soon be banned.


 what i meant to say was that beta sis/saw pal does affect the body in the same way propecia does, hence why in *high, consistent doeses* of beta sis this can have the same affect as propecia does. Im talking from personal experience.
i agree with you, propecia is much much more potent, to replicate the potency of propecia would require quite a considerable amount of beta sis. 
A small amount, here and there, WILL NOT affect you. But CONSISTENT high amounts WILL affect you.

The fact remians though, everyone is different, they have different tolerance levels to the amount that will affect them.

I do believe ALOT of people take propecia thinking they're not being affected in anyway, (at the early stages of propecia use, in some people it causes an INCREASE in SEX DRIVE, Stronger erections, hence why they believe there not being affected in that department etc) but once they stop after years of use, when the body tries to return to normal, in some people, it wont be able to.

Theres some info that i read, about fin/propecia being used to treat prostate cancer, and in some of the cancer cases, the drug stops working for some individuals and the cancer progresses.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Propecia is a hazardous drug that will soon be banned.


 Gonna have to disagree with you on that.

While the side effects may be permanent in some, for reasons we do not know, that does not mean it will be banned.

Chemotherapy is deadly to some people also, but its still used.

----------


## 2020

> Gonna have to disagree with you on that.
> 
> While the side effects may be permanent in some, for reasons we do not know, that does not mean it will be banned.
> 
> Chemotherapy is deadly to some people also, but its still used.


 seriously.... do you know how many PRESCRIPTION ONLY drugs have caused deaths and yet they're still on the market??
Propecia will never be banned, you are wasting your time.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> seriously.... do you know how many PRESCRIPTION ONLY drugs have caused deaths and yet they're still on the market??
> Propecia will never be banned, you are wasting your time.


 Focus your quoting on the person who said it would be banned.  I agree with you, it won't be banned.  But that doesn't mean it won't come with much more serious side effect labeling.

----------


## bananana

OMG guys.
I just had to register to tell you - STICK TO THE SUBJECT!
Jesus, you're arguing on propecia on tocotrienol topic!

This is a rare great topic on a product that is potentially beneficial,
and pretty unknown - please dont screw it up with some small talk,
you have propecia subject - go argue there.

This is a TOCO ONLY subject and we come here to seek relevant info,
and progress updates from users.
NOT to browse through 21 page of your giberish, dissing each other etc.

PLEASE - KEEP THIS TOPIC CLEAN!

----------


## AgainstThis

I'm getting started on Tocotrienols next month and I promise I'll keep you fully updated. I'm taking the exact same compound they were giving the people in the study someone mentioned before and no it doesn't *ABSOLUTELY* have to be Toco-8  :Big Grin:

----------


## clandestine

> OMG guys.
> I just had to register to tell you - STICK TO THE SUBJECT!
> Jesus, you're arguing on propecia on tocotrienol topic!
> 
> This is a rare great topic on a product that is potentially beneficial,
> and pretty unknown - please dont screw it up with some small talk,
> you have propecia subject - go argue there.
> 
> This is a TOCO ONLY subject and we come here to seek relevant info,
> ...


 Thanks brah. People often seem to delve into some propecia related discussion any time it's mentioned around here.

----------


## Winston

> OMG guys.
> I just had to register to tell you - STICK TO THE SUBJECT!
> Jesus, you're arguing on propecia on tocotrienol topic!
> 
> This is a rare great topic on a product that is potentially beneficial,
> and pretty unknown - please dont screw it up with some small talk,
> you have propecia subject - go argue there.
> 
> This is a TOCO ONLY subject and we come here to seek relevant info,
> ...


 The problem is that stressedtobebald is derailing  every thread on this forum with his rhetoric. I wish he would just keep it to a single thread! Its so disruptive to the entire forum.

----------


## bananana

I appreciate this guys.

But I know the deal - I read the whole 21 pages. Lets just try to stick to the subject, dont add more fuel to pointless flaming and trolling on thread-unrelated stuff.

I've been on various forums since 2001; and I know what it can turn to if admins
dont keep order.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to reading more experiences on tocotrienol and any related info.

Also I'm looking for the best "bang for the buck" supplier that delivers to southeastern europe. I'm thinking about ordering from US, but the shipping is kinda high (~$30).

Thanks to everyone and lets keep this forum a good source of quality info.  :Wink:

----------


## 2020

> I'm getting started on Tocotrienols next month and I promise I'll keep you fully updated. I'm taking the exact same compound they were giving the people in the study someone mentioned before and no it doesn't *ABSOLUTELY* have to be Toco-8


 It ABSOLUTELY has to be Toco-8.... that's what I'm been trying to tell you all this time.
Compare the ingredients and you will see that toco-sorb and all those other toco variations differ from toco-8.

----------


## 2020

What does everyone think about the fact that toco-8 actually RAISES testosterone? That cannot be good for hair...

----------


## 2020

> Thanks for sharing!  I think your teachings could help a lot of people around the world.
> Spiritual Teachers


 why!??!?!?

----------


## EXprettyboy

> What does everyone think about the fact that toco-8 actually RAISES testosterone? That cannot be good for hair...


 Testosterone and the notorious potent form DHT are wonderful androgens with one only to well known drawback.....

      Eh .."certain", treatments have sought the elimination of these great hormones to eradicate their 1 drawback (balding), with devastating consequences for some unfortunate males.

     IF only their was some treatments out there that interfered with DHT's interaction at the site of hairloss, yet did not reduce it. Imagine treatments that had testosterone boosting side affects....  but wait > Toco....

     I personally embrace any treatment that boosts testosterone yet ironically reverses hair loss. And then I hit the gym with abandon, fearless of androgen sensitivity knowing that's no longer an issue due to the interventions of my new medicines.    :Big Grin:

----------


## UK_

During foetal development every male starts to develop androgen-resistant hairs, how on earth medical science can reverse-engineer this natural process and actually mimic it in the lab is beyond me.  Trying to recreate a hair follicle in the lab with every intricate function working like clockwork is like looking for a small piece of hay in a very large pile of needles whilst wearing boxing gloves.

Evan Lausters lab-generated hair did not contain EVERY aspect of the follicle that the human body can just create with such seeming ease.  We'll be needing the help of the bodies own physiological functions to 'cure' hair loss; "a dose of what works well there, here".

----------


## StressedToTheBald

During embrionic development is the only stage in life where DHT seems to play a positive role. Beyond that, in adult males.. its either responsible for baldness or prostate cancer.. either way it does no one no good !

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> What does everyone think about the fact that toco-8 actually RAISES testosterone? That cannot be good for hair...


 Its not exactly Toco8 that does it, its Vitamin E.

It helps boost T because it helps the body metabolize to it better.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

Vitamin E might also play a role in boosting nitric oxide as well as blocking androgen receptors. What dosage would be suitable for that.. most likely very high !

----------


## EXprettyboy

> During embrionic development is the only stage in life where DHT seems to play a positive role. Beyond that, in adult males.. its either responsible for baldness or prostate cancer.. either way it does no one no good !


      ......If that were true... it's depletion would be of no consequence.

Lets not fear what the male body naturally produces. DHT is not the problem, our evolutionary scalp sensitivity to it is. It's a vestigial trait that is no longer of benefit.

http://www.mikemahler.com/online-lib...androgens.html

tocotrienols are a treatment option for those who despise the notion of reducing our androgens, and it is apparent that we are plentiful. So at worst people at least have a choice in their regimen recruiting, whereas before the only choice people had was basically anti-androgens or nothing!

----------


## clandestine

> Also I'm looking for the best "bang for the buck" supplier that delivers to southeastern europe. I'm thinking about ordering from US, but the shipping is kinda high (~$30).


 Uhg, same issue. I feel your international shipping prices pain.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Toco8

I noticed amazon.com is out now and I frankly don't want to sign up anywhere else just to order that one product....

Wondering how much more potent Toco8 is compared to another Complete Vitamin E complex.

Tocotreinols are Tocotreinols

----------


## AgainstThis

This is where I'm ordering from for Europe : http://www.lefeurope.com/product_inf...ucts_id/116802

It's the same compound that was used in that promising study. Fingers crossed  :Smile:

----------


## 2020

"....Vitamin E can improve hair follicle micro circulation, ensure sufficient nutrition supply hair follicle, make the hair regeneration. Simple alopecia areata is caused by small angiogenesis contraction, and it can be cured by apply natural vitamin E and eating food contain rich vitamin E....."

interesting...

----------


## Jcm800

Tks for the heads up Against - i've just ordered some from here http://www.victoriahealth.com/produc...ienols/7917/0/

Fck it - might be gnats piss in a capsule but i'll give it a try.

----------


## 2020

VitaCost is having a sale:

http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Toco-Sorb

$13.96 for 60 pills (46% off).

^ If you take 2 of those a day then it may amount to the same amount that toco-8 has...

----------


## Conpecia

> VitaCost is having a sale:
> 
> http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Toco-Sorb
> 
> $13.96 for 60 pills (46% off).
> 
> ^ If you take 2 of those a day then it may amount to the same amount that toco-8 has...


 Welly welly well, my droogs. Look who decided to use his malenky gulliver for once and peet tocos like the rest of his brothers...

----------


## bananana

Conpecia - please dont start again.

Guys, I've found it somewhat cheaper at swanson: 
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/mobil...ail/JR097.html (this is a mobile link - I'm on iphone)
Shipping to my part of the world is ~$28,
I'm thinking about ordering 6 packs right away, so I'm good for at least 6 monts.

Other sources you mentioned (except vitacost) are way too expensive.
~$50 for 1 month supply + shipping is off my chart.

I really hope cheaper version works as good as the other one does.

----------


## 2020

http://www.mikemahler.com/online-lib...androgens.html




> ...If you are prone to baldness, tocotrienols are a must. Tocotreienols are a special form of Vitamin E that help with hair growth and slowing down hair loss. Men that are prone to baldness will accelerate hair loss with ramped up DHT levels. If you are not prone to baldness then it will not likely be an issue....


 can't be..  :Confused:

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Can't be what?

He's simply saying as part of the whole context that increased androgen receptor uptake with increased testosterone and thus DHT will accelerate hair loss, thats all - and why he recommends tocotreinol supplementation.

----------


## 2020

> Can't be what?
> 
> He's simply saying as part of the whole context that increased androgen receptor uptake with increased testosterone and thus DHT will accelerate hair loss, thats all - and why he recommends tocotreinol supplementation.


 right, but how could it possibly slow down balding??
We know that it doesn't block DHT (probably increases it), so how would it work for your hair? Does it make your follicles more resistant to DHT or what?

This goes against everything we know...  :Confused:

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Vitamin E helps promote circulation in the scalp and Vitamin E in general is good for healthy growth of hair.

So by virtue of improving the health of existing hair, it will slow the process down since the DHT strangulation that goes on will take longer.

It might even have the potential to strengthen resistance against DHT and therefore "bring back to life" (at least somewhat) hairs that have miniturized greatly.  Likely they would never return to their full size, but even the smaller hairs becoming fuller and thicker would help diminish the appearance of loss.

Since there has been no controlled study its tough to say, plus it appears these full complex Vitamin E supplements with high tocotreinol uptake have only been around a few years now and more popular in the body building world.  It will take time to shift out of that since that world is full of supplement this, supplement that.

Shampoos that improve volume only have Vitamin E tocopherols in them since they are far more easier to find in nature, so we might start seeing hair products with the -treinols in them one of these days.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Shampoos that improve volume only have Vitamin E tocopherols in them since they are far more easier to find in nature, so we might start seeing hair products with the -treinols in them one of these days.


 I think I might have mixed E vitamins in my MSM balm.

----------


## Jcm800

My caps arrived just now. Talk about fast delivery!

Anyway I'll start popping them and see if anything occurs.

----------


## Maradona

> My caps arrived just now. Talk about fast delivery!
> 
> Anyway I'll start popping them and see if anything occurs.


 Let us know broseph.

----------


## Jcm800

> Let us know broseph.


 Just popped two today and sprouted an affro  :Wink: 

Sure I'll keep updates coming dude.

----------


## Zed

i'm in uk and thinking of ordering toco 8 or toco sorb. which one is known to be more effective and can you buy at any shops in uk? like body building shops even?

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> i'm in uk and thinking of ordering toco 8 or toco sorb. which one is known to be more effective and can you buy at any shops in uk? like body building shops even?


 AFAIK the only difference between the two is the dosage.  It uses the same underlying source (Carotech).

60 servings of Toco 8 has a roughly double the -pherol and -trienol counts that Toco Sorb does at 60 servings as well.

But Toco Sorb costs half as much, so if you match the dose, the cost is basically the same.

But like any other non-medicine there have been no studies that indicate whether Toco Sorb has the same effect as Toco 8 at their standard dosing.  Plus the additional benefit of the -trienols apparently have only been known now for 2-3 years and only gained attention for benefits of hair growth promotion within maybe the last 1-2 years.

----------


## 2020

> AFAIK the only difference between the two is the dosage.  It uses the same underlying source (Carotech).
> 
> 60 servings of Toco 8 has a roughly double the -pherol and -trienol counts that Toco Sorb does at 60 servings as well.
> 
> But Toco Sorb costs half as much, so if you match the dose, the cost is basically the same.
> 
> But like any other non-medicine there have been no studies that indicate whether Toco Sorb has the same effect as Toco 8 at their standard dosing.  Plus the additional benefit of the -trienols apparently have only been known now for 2-3 years and only gained attention for benefits of hair growth promotion within maybe the last 1-2 years.


 Toco-8 comes in a powder so it absorbs much MUCH better than those plastic pills from toco-sorb.......

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Toco-8 comes in a powder so it absorbs much MUCH better than those plastic pills from toco-sorb.......


 I have ordered the powder, checked out a lot of body building forums. Seems like everybody is saying good things about this. Not read any bad reviews.

http://www.google.co.uk/products/cat...ed=0CD4Q8wIwAQ

I have very mild hairloss (mature hairline), and as I am looking to start working out-hard at the gym, I am using this for preventative measures if anything.

Will keep you guys updated.

----------


## bananana

> Toco-8 comes in a powder so it absorbs much MUCH better than those plastic pills from toco-sorb.......


 Is that a fact or a presumption?
Source of that information?

Until I get home and order (probably) toco sorb, I bought a small can of vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol - 400 IU - 1333%,
d-beta tocopherol, d-gamma and d-delta tocopherol - 67 mg)

What do you think - do tocopherols have similar effect as tocotrienols (probably not) and could I take these vitamins (until depleted) together with toco when it arrives? Or would it be too much of vitamin E - since this is already at 1333% daily value (keep in mind probably only 20-30% of that gets to blood stream)

----------


## 2020

> Is that a fact or a presumption?


 That's a fact. Read about it on BodyBuilding forums.




> I have ordered the powder, checked out a lot of body building forums. Seems like everybody is saying good things about this. Not read any bad reviews.


 Apparently it also reversed grey hair for some people so yeah it's probably a fantastic vitamin, but I don't think it does much against MPB...
It's also quite expensive - $30/month.....

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> That's a fact. Read about it on BodyBuilding forums.
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently it also reversed grey hair for some people so yeah it's probably a fantastic vitamin, but I don't think it does much against MPB...
> It's also quite expensive - $30/month.....


 checked the ingredients it has beta-Sitosterol in there, a DHT blocker - is this harmful.

----------


## Zoidberg

I'm seriously considering adding Toco 8 to my already excessively long regimen, I'm not so interested in the capsules (toco sorb/ilfe extension) but it is expensive in the UK. 
This is the cheapest I can find it, but does this site look dodgy to anybody else  :Confused:  
http://www.blackbullnutrition.com/toco-8-38g-220-p.asp 
Has anybody bought from this place?

----------


## Zoidberg

> checked the ingredients it has beta-Sitosterol in there, a DHT blocker - is this harmful.


 yeahyeahyeah, I take a saw palmetto complex that has beta-sis in it and have had no sides from it (other than a month of shedding in my first month of taking it). Like any DHT inhibitor I'm sure some people can be sensitive to it and get sides, however from what I have read it seems the levels of beta-sis are very low in any Toco product and so are unlikely to cause any side effects.

----------


## 2020

> checked the ingredients it has beta-Sitosterol in there, a DHT blocker - is this harmful.


 only 8 mg though.... that's not nearly enough to make any impact on your DHT levels and your hair...

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> That's a fact. Read about it on BodyBuilding forums.
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently it also reversed grey hair for some people so yeah it's probably a fantastic vitamin, but I don't think it does much against MPB...
> It's also quite expensive - $30/month.....


 I agree, that it likely doesn't combat the root (har har) of MPB, but if it promotes hair growth in other ways to "slow it down" thats at least one more bullet in the barrel.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> checked the ingredients it has beta-Sitosterol in there, a DHT blocker - is this harmful.


 I use 510mg of beta sitosterol daily. Its safe.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> yeahyeahyeah, I take a saw palmetto complex that has beta-sis in it and have had no sides from it (other than a month of shedding in my first month of taking it). Like any DHT inhibitor I'm sure some people can be sensitive to it and get sides, however from what I have read it seems the levels of beta-sis are very low in any Toco product and so are unlikely to cause any side effects.


 Same here. Both saw palmetto and beta sitosterol are safe. No significant nor permanent risks like with propecia.

----------


## 2020

> I use 510mg of beta sitosterol daily. Its safe.


 



> It can cause some side effects, such as nausea, indigestion, gas, diarrhea, or constipation. Beta-sitosterol has also been linked to reports of *erectile dysfunction (ED)* and *loss of interest in sex*.


 http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supple...ETA-SITOSTEROL

----------


## willy

I bought this stuff... kinda expensive. 40 dollars. Is this the right stuff?

----------


## 2020

> I bought this stuff... kinda expensive. 40 dollars. Is this the right stuff?


 
geez idk, compare the ingredients:

toco-3
http://astronutrition.com/aor-toco-3...-softgels.html

toco-8:
http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/p...co-8-38-g.html

don't look the same to me... why didn't you buy the original toco-8 especially when it's even cheaper than the one you bought?  :Confused:

----------


## willy

haha ya I was just lazy and walked over to the closest supplement store and that's what they had. I agree I should have checked out the ingredients and compared. 

Here's the ingredients... what's even more funny that that I just noticed how it says " supports the development of breast cells"  :EEK!:  !! lol 

I'll have to just order the stuff online I guess.... haha I don't care about the money it's a drop in the bucket compared to the amount I've spent over the years on this sh*&^%.

----------


## StressedToTheBald

> Here's the ingredients... what's even more funny that that I just noticed how it says " supports the development of breast cells"  !! lol


 I've heard doctors prescribe vitamin E in high doses againt gynecomastia.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I've heard doctors prescribe vitamin E in high doses againt gynecomastia.


 http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...-for-hair-loss

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Took my first dose of toco 8 this morning.

I feel like I have got more energy.

No ball ache or anything.

----------


## clandestine

@yeahyeahyeah; Just a note, found this post through the link you had just previously posted.





> There is literature tha states that tocotrienols are better taken in the evening, at a different time from tocopherols, which I, in turn, interpreted to mean that the presence of other anti-oxidant forms could have a negative effect on the absorption of tocotrienols.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Thanks will do that

----------


## clandestine

Been on Tocomin Suprabio pills at 2x per day for about 5 days now. Decidedly going to switch to Toco 8 for a while, starting tonight at 1 scoop per day.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Bit the bullet and bought Toco8 from ProSource.net

I would have preferred if Amazon had it, or some place local but whatever.  I think being such a unique product it will probably not find its way to Amazon or elsewhere any time soon.

Even after looking at toco-sorbs ingredients more closely i see its not a complete Vitamin E complex - its only the alpha tocopherol and then the 4 -trienols whereas Toco8 is the complete, all 8.

So while doing 2 toco-sorbs gets the equivalent -trienol dose, its still missing the other 3 -pherols and thus is not actually equivalent at half the dose.

----------


## Conpecia

> Been on Tocomin Suprabio pills at 2x per day for about 5 days now. Decidedly going to switch to Toco 8 for a while, starting tonight at 1 scoop per day.


 Interesting. Nothing going with the suprabio? I think Toco 8 is probably the safest bet. Keep us updated as the weeks roll on.

----------


## AgainstThis

Just a note.

According to the study, it's the -TRIENOLS we want for our hair, not the -PHEROLS (not that they're harmful or anything) but the one and only study we've got, participants took tocotrienols and that point was made particularly clear.

That being said, I'm starting on LifeExtension's Super Absorbable Tocotrienols thing next month. They marketed it after the study was published, so hey, it's worth a desperate shot  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jcm800

In on those now AgainstThis-been a week so far-nothing to report as yet tho obviously.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> In on those now AgainstThis-been a week so far-nothing to report as yet tho obviously.


 Hair doesn't grow that fast, even if accelerated, so the only change you _might_ see in the short term is your own personal vitality and "zest" going up.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Hair doesn't grow that fast, even if accelerated, so the only change you _might_ see in the short term is your own personal vitality and "zest" going up.


 Worst case scienario, you will be healthier. With no affect on hairloss.

This is essentially a vitamin supplement.

----------


## clandestine

> Interesting. Nothing going with the suprabio? I think Toco 8 is probably the safest bet. Keep us updated as the weeks roll on.


 Figured Toco 8 would be more potent for some reason. Wanted to start my regime with it, as such.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Figured Toco 8 would be more potent for some reason. Wanted to start my regime with it, as such.


 The Toco Min Suprabio ingredients only show alpha-tocopherol.  Its not a complete VitE complex like Toco8.

Whether those other 3 -pherols have much impact is a complete unknown.

It seems only Toco8 has all 8 - hence the name!

----------


## Jcm800

> Hair doesn't grow that fast, even if accelerated, so the only change you _might_ see in the short term is your own personal vitality and "zest" going up.


 Err tks but I'm quite aware of that! Can't say I've noticed any increase in zest at all so far, anyway early days-not expecting fireworks anywhere down the line tbh.

----------


## bananana

Just a small update from me:
I ordered 6 bottles of toco sorb from swanson, and we'll see how it goes.
I read a bit about it on body building forums - and those guys there dont know to read the signals at all! Meaning - most of them on toco8/toco sorb/toco whateva experiences CRAWLING or TINGLING sensation on the scalp - and they got scared, figured it was a bad sign and stopped using!

Terrible mistake in judgement.

I recently had a hair transplant and right about now I'm feeling those exact sensations - meaning new/stronger hair is popping out (I can see it in the mirror). 
Ps, since I'm using 2 liters of green tea daily+beer yeast+saw palmetto+iron+vitamin E+eating lot of fruit and fish combo - I see more "white hair" growing where there was none, or it was extremely small, I'm wondering how to "turn" it to dark hair again...
We'll see what happens with toco.

Pps
I also noticed (now this could be false - I dont know) that when I used to do push ups with feet vertically over my head - I had less hair shedding!
I recently started doing that again, maybe the blood "spills" over follicules like water on the plant root, feeding it somewhat.
But this is just guessing.

I'll keep you updated on toco situation.

----------


## 2020

> I ordered 6 bottles of toco sorb from swanson, and we'll see how it goes.


 why not toco-8.... we've just established that only toco-8 is the "real" toco that  was used in that hair growth study....

----------


## bananana

I know, but I read on those BB forums that people who experienced tingling/crawling sensation also used toco-sorb, it didn't happen just with toco-8, and the problem for me with toco-8, it's much harder to find online someone who ships it to my mediterranean country, it's more expensive (even considering I'll be taking 2 toco sorb pills daily), and quite honestly I don't believe it's so much less effective than toco-8.

But we'll see, if I don't experience so much effects in 6 months as you guys on toco-8, I'll switch.  :Wink: 

And to be clear on tingling sensation on the scalp - IT'S POSITIVE!
So guys, if you experience it while using toco - write about it here.

----------


## Jcm800

I'm going thru a shed-now whether this is seasonal or Minox induced I don't know. It's been noticeable since taking this stuff tho. Oh bizarre as it may seem having only been on this a week now, my stubble after a shave is coming thru quicker than usual, anyway that's all I can say at the moment.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> I know, but I read on those BB forums that people who experienced tingling/crawling sensation also used toco-sorb, it didn't happen just with toco-8, and the problem for me with toco-8, it's much harder to find online someone who ships it to my mediterranean country, it's more expensive (even considering I'll be taking 2 toco sorb pills daily), and quite honestly I don't believe it's so much less effective than toco-8.
> 
> But we'll see, if I don't experience so much effects in 6 months as you guys on toco-8, I'll switch. 
> 
> And to be clear on tingling sensation on the scalp - IT'S POSITIVE!
> So guys, if you experience it while using toco - write about it here.


 Tingling is either a sign of inflammation flare up, or strong hairs pushing out weak...earlier then a normal cycle might.

And comparing your gains vs someone elses on a similar product isn't fair.  Maybe my body will respond superbly to the -trienols in Toco8, or it will shrug it off.  Who knows.

----------


## bananana

> Tingling is either a sign of inflammation flare up, or strong hairs pushing out weak...earlier then a normal cycle might.
> 
> And comparing your gains vs someone elses on a similar product isn't fair.  Maybe my body will respond superbly to the -trienols in Toco8, or it will shrug it off.  Who knows.


 Of course, you're right - I was maybe a bit ecstatic when I wrote the comment, each body is different and reacts differently. Everyone should, of course, monitor their progress/situation and act accordingly. 

Anyways, I was a bit disappointed that those body builders quit on tocotrienols at first sign of something happening ("tingling/crawling" sensation), they didn't go to a dermatologist or did they notice any sign of inflammation, red skin, or extra shedding - they just quit with the powder. 
To me it's a definite sign something is happening - if you suspect bad - you should at least go to a doctor to check it out before making rash decisions. 
Am I right?

----------


## NotBelievingIt

I think with regard to bodybuilders specifically, we should remain skeptical.  Some "bros" take a whole slew of stuff that god knows how they all react together.

They may have gotten paranoid at the unknown.  Many "bros" are like those in the hair loss community who jump from snake oil to snake oil - they don't see the results they want in a short time frame and then just give it up and move on to the next thing they read about in a magazine or internet forum.

I will admit that if I was truly bat-shit paranoid crazy about my hair I might very well become one of those jumpers, hoping for a miracle that can "put an end to the misery"

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I think with regard to bodybuilders specifically, we should remain skeptical.  Some "bros" take a whole slew of stuff that god knows how they all react together.
> 
> They may have gotten paranoid at the unknown.  Many "bros" are like those in the hair loss community who jump from snake oil to snake oil - they don't see the results they want in a short time frame and then just give it up and move on to the next thing they read about in a magazine or internet forum.
> 
> I will admit that if I was truly bat-shit paranoid crazy about my hair I might very well become one of those jumpers, hoping for a miracle that can "put an end to the misery"


 There are too many good reviews for this product; and more importantly the reviews are consistent....immortal hair for example is a non bb forum raving about it.

Toco 8 is worth a shot, worse case scienario, it does not work. But enjoy the health benefits it brings in other areas. (Unlike propecia, i very much doubt your balls will drop off by taking it.)

3 days now. Nothing to report, aside from more energy after taking it.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Of course, you're right - I was maybe a bit ecstatic when I wrote the comment, each body is different and reacts differently. Everyone should, of course, monitor their progress/situation and act accordingly. 
> 
> Anyways, I was a bit disappointed that those body builders quit on tocotrienols at first sign of something happening ("tingling/crawling" sensation), they didn't go to a dermatologist or did they notice any sign of inflammation, red skin, or extra shedding - they just quit with the powder. 
> To me it's a definite sign something is happening - if you suspect bad - you should at least go to a doctor to check it out before making rash decisions. 
> Am I right?


 I have not noticed any of this - "tingling/crawling" sensation.

----------


## gutted

> They may have gotten paranoid at the unknown.  *Many "bros" are like those in the hair loss community who jump from snake oil to snake oil - they don't see the results they want in a short time frame and then just give it up and move on to the next thing they read about in a magazine or internet forum.*


 i second that!

----------


## UK_

Ive been applying a Vitamin E solution to my hair that contains Alpha-Toco something for over a year, its done nothing but improve the skin in the area, no impact on hair loss.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Ive been applying a Vitamin E solution to my hair that contains Alpha-Toco something for over a year, its done nothing but improve the skin in the area, no impact on hair loss.


 Unless a vitamin supplement explicitly is calling out the tocotrienol chains, its likely only going to contain Alpha Tocopheral, which is the most abundant and common source of "Vitamin E".  Even some "Complete Vitamin E" you may see contain only the four tocopherols, so reading the ingredients is important.

----------


## UK_

Can someone provide me a link to the actual journal article where this "study" is outlined in full?

----------


## 2020

> Can someone provide me a link to the actual journal article where this "study" is outlined in full?


 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...ery=PN/7211274

----------


## UK_

> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...ery=PN/7211274


 Do you have any others by different researchers?  I tried doing a search and it seems this is the only research that appears to have found such results.

The research was also conducted a number of years back -

----------


## 2020

> Do you have any others by different researchers?  I tried doing a search and it seems this is the only research that appears to have found such results.
> 
> The research was also conducted a number of years back -


 nope, that's the only one... 
A bunch of people started taking it since the start of this thread so we'll see if it really works  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## gutted

sorry posted on the the wrong thread.

----------


## Thermal

Maybe relevant to Tocotrienol discussion due to vitamin E link - after finding out sunflower seeds were good for cholesterol control and said to help with hair growth I've been eating them by the "bucket load" for about 5 months. About 3 months into eating a pack a day (125g) I have noticed that my remaining hair (very few - I'm a NW6/7) have become much thicker. I shave my head completely so any small changes are easily seen/felt. The remaining hairs can now be seen at a distance and can be felt after a few days of shaving. This wasn't the case before eating the sunflower seeds as the hair was very thin and soft even when growing back in after a shave. I have also noticed two vellus hairs growing to around 2mm in areas that have only had very short, almost invisible, vellus hairs for 20+ years. Never seen this before and may not seem like a big deal but I am very proud of them!

However, I also stopped smoking at the same time. So this may have been the cause in hair improvement and not the sunflower seeds. But thought worth mentioning as I have never seen an improvement in my hair quality for 20+ years (was all down hill from 18 years old onwards).

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Maybe relevant to Tocotrienol discussion due to vitamin E link - after finding out sunflower seeds were good for cholesterol control and said to help with hair growth I've been eating them by the "bucket load" for about 5 months. About 3 months into eating a pack a day (125g) I have noticed that my remaining hair (very few - I'm a NW6/7) have become much thicker. I shave my head completely so any small changes are easily seen/felt. The remaining hairs can now be seen at a distance and can be felt after a few days of shaving. This wasn't the case before eating the sunflower seeds as the hair was very thin and soft even when growing back in after a shave. I have also noticed two vellus hairs growing to around 2mm in areas that have only had very short, almost invisible, vellus hairs for 20+ years. Never seen this before and may not seem like a big deal but I am very proud of them!
> 
> However, I also stopped smoking at the same time. So this may have been the cause in hair improvement and not the sunflower seeds. But thought worth mentioning as I have never seen an improvement in my hair quality for 20+ years (was all down hill from 18 years old onwards).


 Good to hear!

However your second paragraph is key. It is often the case when people "decide to change" - they also remove something of particular harm to the body (smoking, drinking) and positive changes start occuring and it can be difficult to determine which was the real catalyst for an unexpected or welcomed or even desired change.

Stopping smoking has helped immensely with oxygenated blood flow.  Your capillaries all over are less constricted (including those in the scalp), you breath easier and your blood is more oxygenated.  This will have the direct benefit of overall skin, hair and nail health.

----------


## Thermal

I would normally have put it all down to stopping smoking as well. However, I have stopped in the past for longer periods of time and did not seen any improvement in my hair then. Maybe something to do with stopping at a later age when blood circulation was worse than before and so stopping has had a greater impact. Not sure.

I haven't really made any other changes other than the smoking and sunflower seeds. Maybe a combination of the both things. Even it is both then the sunflower seeds have still played a part in hair improvement.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> ...Maybe a combination of the both things. Even it is both then the sunflower seeds have still played a part in hair improvement.


 Often times things work in synergy - they often say Finasteride/Minoxidil have a synergistic relationship since the min promotes hair growth that the fin can help protect and vice versa.

Perhaps just adding the sunflower seeds but continuing to smoke would have seen no improvement because it was "too much work" and vice versa there was nothing to boost your system when you did quit in the past.

----------


## bananana

Interesting to hear.
I've always been told various seeds are good, but in strictly limited quantities i.e.
walnut is great for health - but to be taken daily in quantity that can fit in your hand, so I'm a bit sceptical about overdosing with sunflower seeds.  :Smile: 
I'll look into dosage on google.

----------


## bananana

Hi guys, I found a 4 year old "test" on tocotrienols (toco sorb), but the guy took them for just 2 months - thats way to little time to see some real results, nevertheless he experienced lesser shedding than usual when on toco sorb.

It is unknown wether he continued the test or not.
http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.co...otrienols.html

anyways, here are some more experiences from body builders:


_The Natural on Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:32 am
During the summer months, hair, in what I considered my safe areas, seemed to be thinning quite a bit. I initially attributed this to the type of brand that I was using at the time (e.g. LEF Super Bio). But now, I am not so sure. I recently decided to take my tocotrienols, Toco-8, at a different time (evening) from the curcumin/resveratrol combination (morning). And my hair has thickened right back up._

_goten574 on Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:52 pm
I started taking MSM and Tocotrienols since mid August, usually one a day but sometimes two. (I would say 60&#37; of the time I take one, and 40% I take two). I usually take these two together with a variety of seeds such as Sesame, Pumpkin and Sunflower (1 tablespoon). I take the seeds for general health but heard the present of Sunflower enhances absorption of Tocotrienols. I also take Vitamin B Complex and D3 as well as drinking Spearmint and Green Tea regularly.

At the end of August, I started doing Balayam and also purchased a Boar Bristle Brush. I am not sure what is causing it but I really believe I am seeing results. I noticed my hair loss this time last year and although it does not look as good as it did back then, it's still minor and I am sure I see an improvement over the last couple of months. Who knows... sometimes I feel really good about my hair and other times I feel awful._

Also - interesting text on tocotrienols and tocopherols.
As someone said - they are *NOT* to be mixed together in large quantities.

Further, they claim *delta* and *gamma* tocotrienols are the most potent ones.

COMPARISON
toco sorb (2 caps) - 63 mg delta and 17 mg gamma
toco 8 (1 scoop) - 14 mg delta and 52 mg gamma

I dont know which combination is better.  :Smile: 

Also I drink a lot of green tea daily (1-2 litres), does it affect tocotrienols in any way? Can I drink it immediately after/before taking toco?

Also - in the original study of toco-8, did participants take single scoop daily?

----------


## gutted

the pictures provided in this experiment -> http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.co...grow-hair.html

look more satisfying than the pictures provided withe tocoterinol study, dont you think?

----------


## bananana

Yeah, those look good.

Ps, as I mentioned somewhere, I already ordered a few bottles of soy isoflavones as I read a study that soy i. + green tea or black tea = 72&#37; less DHT. I'll give it a go for at least 6 months to see the results.

*Ps, what is capsaicin, where do you get etc?
*
It says in the text - it's present in chili peppers  :Big Grin: 
Nice, I'm gonna grab one of them daily.

The problem is - this all costs. A lot. 
I'll be taking toco, soy, green tea, iron, yeast, probably saw palmetto, maybe minox...
When you add that all up - it's a "nice" monthly sum.  

Here is a small copy/paste of that text I have on my laptop:


_“Mice treated with black tea (via standard,steeped beverage)tended to have a greater serum testosterone concentration (34.4%, P = 0.50) and had a 72% lower DHT concentration than controls (P < 0.05), suggesting that black tea may contain components that inhibit the activity of 5 -reductase, an enzyme that converts testosterone to the more bioactive DHT.” 

This study also showed that the consumption of Green Tea as a beverage combined with Soy Isoflavone Concentrate significantly reduced DHT levels, and to some degree testosterone. Curiously it was found that the singular consumption of Green Tea raised both testosterone and DHT levels.

The implications of potential benefits to humans with Androgenetic Alopecia are significant. 

It would appear reasonable based upon these findings that exclusive consumption of Black Tea or Black Tea Extract (Theaflavins) would likely reduce serum DHT to the same level as Propecia, and that the concurrent consumption of Soy Isoflavones or Soy Isoflavones with Green Tea would produce an additive effect. 

Human studies done thus far on Soy and its effects on reproductive hormones in men in males indicate no apparent negative effect. It has also been established that Green Tea to some degree, suppresses androgen receptor signaling and inhibits both 5 alpha reductase isozymes. Green Tea and Grape Seed Extracts have been successfully combined with Taurine by L’Oreal to stop hair loss and promote hair growth. Based on this study however, some may feel that Green Tea should only be consumed with Soy. Given Green Tea's multitude of anti-androgenic actions and the increase in SHBG (low levels of SHBG are associated with male pattern hair loss) that Green tea consumption causes, it is our position that Green Tea, even if singularly consumed, will likely benefit those with hair loss.

It is well established that the incidence of male and female pattern balding in the rural Orient is a small fraction of what it is here in the United States, and that the incidence of Androgenetic Alopecia among Asians who live in the U.S. is much higher than those living in the Orient. Soy based foods, a dietary staple, and the regular beverage consumption of Green and Black Teas factor significantly, and are perhaps causative, in this phenomenon._

I don't know quite what to make of it -* which tea is better combined with isoflavones - green or black*?
And what do you think - will any of these ingredients combined together combat themselves -* TOCO, GREEN TEA, SOY ISOFLAVONES, SAW PALMETTO.*
I think not, but still we should give it a thought. We should see which one of these lowers testosteron, and which rises it.
As far as I know - toco = rise, green tea = rise, soy =? saw palmetto = acts on DHT

So as much as I can tell, it should be a good combo.

Sorry for the long post guys. 
 :Smile:

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Where did you find that?  Link please.  I've seen conflicting things about the benefits of Green and Black Tea - some have suggested that to see any real benefit it takes basically drinking it nonstop all day - or in the case of the wonderful drug world taking extract supplements that are highly concentrated in order to prevent the non-stop cup of tea.

Soy inhibits DHT in that it promotes, to a small degree, the conversion to estrogen.  So while DHT is an "estrogen" inhibitor - soy promotes the conversion to estradiol (estrogen).  Thats why it remains a controversial protein in the body building world.

----------


## clandestine

I've heard some unfortunate things regarding soy in the past as well. Increased estrogen doesn't necessarily sound appealing. The compromises we must endure, I suppose.

----------


## bananana

> Where did you find that?  Link please.  I've seen conflicting things about the benefits of Green and Black Tea - some have suggested that to see any real benefit it takes basically drinking it nonstop all day - or in the case of the wonderful drug world taking extract supplements that are highly concentrated in order to prevent the non-stop cup of tea.
> 
> Soy inhibits DHT in that it promotes, to a small degree, the conversion to estrogen.  So while DHT is an "estrogen" inhibitor - soy promotes the conversion to estradiol (estrogen).  Thats why it remains a controversial protein in the body building world.


 It was done on Harvard university.
here is a part of text:
http://www.hairloss-research.org/Upd...cktea7-09.html
and here is a bigger one:
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/133/2/516.full

I've read newer studies that say soy is not bad for males as it was thought to be. .

_"Human studies done thus far on Soy and its effects on reproductive hormones in men in males indicate no apparent negative effect. It has also been established that Green Tea to some degree, suppresses androgen receptor signaling and inhibits both 5 alpha reductase isozymes. "_

Anyways, tea + soy seems to have a synergistic effect - so it should show results if its lowering DHT by over 70% (same as finasteride). They say drinking tea + taking soy isoflavones is enough in quantity for the effect. 
I'm thinking about trying a black/green tea concentrate thou - they're cheap and easy to find on ebay.

Also this sentence makes no sense:
_This study also showed that the consumption of Green Tea as a beverage combined with Soy Isoflavone Concentrate significantly reduced DHT levels, and to some degree testosterone. Curiously it was found that the singular consumption of Green Tea raised both testosterone and DHT levels._
*because few lines later they say* - _"Given its multitude of anti-androgenic actions and the increase in SHBG (low levels of SHBG are associated with male pattern hair loss) that Green tea causes, it is our position that Green Tea, even if singularly consumed, will benefit those with hair loss."_

*So which one is it?* 

Ps, guys - we're on tocotrienols thread - maybe we should open a new one on soy/tea not to confuse people that will read this in the future?

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Ps, guys - we're on tocotrienols thread - maybe we should open a new one on soy/tea not to confuse people that will read this in the future?


 Good idea  :Smile: 


and to throw the thread back on track:

I got my Toco8 on Wednesday and took the first dose that evening.

I must say that tiny little scoop they give you is quite annoying.  I've also found it doesn't dissolve that well, even in water.  Maybe its the water I have (well water, not really filtered) that is doing that and makes it stick to the sides of the glass.

----------


## bananana

> Good idea 
> 
> 
> and to throw the thread back on track:
> 
> I got my Toco8 on Wednesday and took the first dose that evening.
> 
> I must say that tiny little scoop they give you is quite annoying.  I've also found it doesn't dissolve that well, even in water.  Maybe its the water I have (well water, not really filtered) that is doing that and makes it stick to the sides of the glass.


 You should probably need to use some kind of blender to mix it with water/milk/juice.

I'll open a new thread now about soy/green tea now (I'll just copy/paste my post from this thread so we can discuss it there)

Boy, I haven't been so active anywhere for a long time.
 :Big Grin:

----------


## clandestine

> Good idea 
> 
> 
> and to throw the thread back on track:
> 
> I got my Toco8 on Wednesday and took the first dose that evening.
> 
> I must say that tiny little scoop they give you is quite annoying.  I've also found it doesn't dissolve that well, even in water.  Maybe its the water I have (well water, not really filtered) that is doing that and makes it stick to the sides of the glass.


 Found the same thing mate. Solution, don't dissolve it into anything and try to drink it. Just take a sip of something, water or juice, then let the toco fall right out of the scoop into your mouth. Done.

----------


## Jcm800

Ok - two weeks on my  LifeExtension's Super Absorbable Tocotrienols capsules. I've been shedding more than i'm used to in that period - most likely coincidental and seasonal tho.

One other thing i am noticing is my eyebrow's - long sucker's are appearing almost over night. I had to pluck a few today they were too long. Once again, could be just my natural ageing process, but they're appearing quicker than usual.

----------


## 2020

> One other thing i am noticing is my eyebrow's - long sucker's are appearing almost over night. I had to pluck a few today they were too long. Once again, could be just my natural ageing process, but they're appearing quicker than usual.


 that's actually a good sign. What does it have to do with aging?

----------


## Jcm800

The older you get the longer the hairs on your eyebrow's, in your ear's, on your back, from your nose get. Look at any old timer and you'll see hair's longer than a youth would have.

Deffo seeing accelerated eyebrow growth here anyway. Pubes have a bushier feel too for anyone interested lol.

----------


## bananana

> Deffo seeing accelerated eyebrow growth here anyway. Pubes have a bushier feel too for anyone interested lol.


 Hahaha Lol.
Good thing - something is happening!  
Remember - patience is the key, you'll need to use it for at least 5 months to see the real change. Interesting that some body builders who used it for a few years said it stopped their MPB dead and keeps it that way.

----------


## Jcm800

> Hahaha Lol.
> Good thing - something is happening!  
> Remember - patience is the key, you'll need to use it for at least 5 months to see the real change. Interesting that some body builders who used it for a few years said it stopped their MPB dead and keeps it that way.


 Yeah, i'm curious about this stuff, shall keep on it for a few months and see if anything happen's where it count's - on my head  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Ok - two weeks on my  LifeExtension's Super Absorbable Tocotrienols capsules. I've been shedding more than i'm used to in that period - most likely coincidental and seasonal tho.


 I was wondering whether a shed would be a result of taking it.

If it truly has an effect, it likely would exhibit the same kind of initial signs as any other regiment - meaning, to allow a stronger hair to grow, it'll have to kick out the weaker first.

----------


## Jcm800

> I was wondering whether a shed would be a result of taking it.
> 
> If it truly has an effect, it likely would exhibit the same kind of initial signs as any other regiment - meaning, to allow a stronger hair to grow, it'll have to kick out the weaker first.


 I can't say for sure - i'm on Minox too, been on it about ten month's, had a terrible shed during the first month or so - and since then nothing drastic. Seem's odd that i'm losing hair again now - unless it's natural progression, can't be sure.

----------


## bananana

> Maybe relevant to Tocotrienol discussion due to vitamin E link - after finding out sunflower seeds were good for cholesterol control and said to help with hair growth I've been eating them by the "bucket load" for about 5 months. About 3 months into eating a pack a day (125g) I have noticed that my remaining hair (very few - I'm a NW6/7) have become much thicker. I shave my head completely so any small changes are easily seen/felt. The remaining hairs can now be seen at a distance and can be felt after a few days of shaving. This wasn't the case before eating the sunflower seeds as the hair was very thin and soft even when growing back in after a shave. I have also noticed two vellus hairs growing to around 2mm in areas that have only had very short, almost invisible, vellus hairs for 20+ years. Never seen this before and may not seem like a big deal but I am very proud of them!


 Just wanted to say that 125 g DAILY is an INSANE amount! 
Usually they're used as bird food, and as such 1 kg costs around 2 euros or $3, for humans I think price goes up, because they're like non GMO etc.. 

So that means you ate 4 kg monthly! (that is A LOT.) 
It's not that they're expensive or anything, *I'm just wondering how big is a "normal" dose, enough to feel some results?* 
I read they're really healthy (_In addition to linoleic acid (an essential fatty acid), sunflower seeds are also an excellent source of dietary fiber, some amino acids (especially tryptophan), Vitamin E, B Vitamins (especially vitamin B1 or thiamine, vitamin B5 or pantothenic acid and folate), and minerals such as copper, manganese, potassium, magnesium, iron, phosphorus, selenium, calcium and zinc.[4] Additionally, they are rich in cholesterol-lowering phytosterols_)

I'm wondering also - that vitamin E in seeds - in which form is it?
I bought 200 g today, and that's a big bag of them. I think it's gonna last me at least a week, or I'm gonna turn into a bird. 
 :Smile:

----------


## Jcm800

Well-if you don't grow any hair I think you'll grow some feathers  :Wink:

----------


## bananana

> Well-if you don't grow any hair I think you'll grow some feathers


 hahahaha, good one!  :Smile: 

Think about it - isn't it ironic?
We actually feed animals way better and healthier then we feed ourselves.

Just a few months ago each and every night I went to the city or out I would end up on kebab, in KFC, or McD... TERRIBLE!
I'm definitely over with that lifestyle - I think that was ruining my health (and hair probably), now I've lost more than 8 kg (16 pounds) and I feel (and look) better than ever!

----------


## Jcm800

Funny you should say that - I was just the same, ate all the crap you just mentioned and a small bottle of coke a day. Knocked it all on the head these last two weeks, smoking is next on the hit list for me.

----------


## bananana

> Funny you should say that - I was just the same, ate all the crap you just mentioned and a small bottle of coke a day. Knocked it all on the head these last two weeks, smoking is next on the hit list for me.


 Uf, coke is the worst shit ever! 
I've read numerous studies stating people who drank coke regularly have like 5 times weaker bones than others and other defects. I drank it like few times in a year (ironically - mostly when I was in McD  :Smile: )

Since I've started eating vegetables and fruit I feel 10 times better, and people notice the difference. You should really quit smoking, I know it's extremely hard, but you'll be well off without it. 

PS, 
too bad this forum hasn't got private messages, so we can chat a bit here and there without polluting the threads.
If someone wants to add me on skype, just ask and I'll give you the username
 :Smile:

----------


## clandestine

> Funny you should say that - I was just the same, ate all the crap you just mentioned and a small bottle of coke a day. Knocked it all on the head these last two weeks, smoking is next on the hit list for me.


 Regarding smoking, quit it for your hair, man. Smoking restricts capillaries. I'm in the same boat, currently. Quitting except for celebratory occasions.

----------


## Jcm800

Yeah I hear you-damned hard tho when I get down and see more hair going down the plug hole-a cig gives a moments release. I'm gonna quit again tho regardless of hair benefits it's screwing me up slolwly but surely.

----------


## clandestine

> Yeah I hear you-damned hard tho when I get down and see more hair going down the plug hole-a cig gives a moments release. I'm gonna quit again tho regardless of hair benefits it's screwing me up slolwly but surely.


 I feel you man, cravings are rough for sure. I've got the same mentality; why me? **** it, bogue. Chill. But we should do all we can to reduce oxidative stress.

----------


## Jcm800

I quit for three months last year and only started again for comfort. But you're right-we can't afford screw with our health, gotta keep that blood flowing in all regions  :Wink:

----------


## Jcm800

Ok, I'm noticing small bumps that are tender to touch on my head. Main one is off my crown, there's only about three in all. Don't know if they're connected to taking this stuff. Had similar bumps when I was on Trx2 as well. 
Again might just be scalp inflammation that'd occur regardless.

----------


## gutted

> Ok, I'm noticing small bumps that are tender to touch on my head. Main one is off my crown, there's only about three in all. Don't know if they're connected to taking this stuff. Had similar bumps when I was on Trx2 as well. 
> Again might just be scalp inflammation that'd occur regardless.


 Jc, you need to stop the smoking. Smoking plays a very big factor on hairloss too. Any treatment you start will not yeild you anything unless the smoking is stopped.

----------


## gutted

http://ernd.usm.my/journal/journal/T...2891-99%29.pdf

----------


## Jcm800

I hear what you're saying gutted. I will stop shortly-I stopped for three months whilst on Trx2 didn't seem to help, but I realise it takes time. There's a plethora of reasons to stop-I dont think personally it'll help much with my hair-after all I know many smokers with full heads of hair, and also see down and outs chuffing and drinking with masses of hair. 
On the other hand a hairloss sufferer that smokes can't afford to hinder blood flow, how's your hair coming along? Still feeling Trx2 is benefiting you?

----------


## Jcm800

Double posted sorry.

----------


## 2020

> http://ernd.usm.my/journal/journal/T...2891-99%29.pdf


 

amazing...

this is what's interesting:




> The placebo is a soft gelatine capsule containing 600 mg of *soya bean oil*


 why would they give soy to the placebo group?? Why not a water pill? Soy could actually improve your hair but somehow in this study it didn't do anything....




> Each tocotrienol capsule contained *50 mg* of mixed tocotrienols (30.8% α-tocotrienol, 56.4% γ-tocotrienol and 12.8% δ-tocotrienol) as well as 23 IU of α-tocopherol. The volunteers were required to take one capsule of either the placebo or tocotrienol *twice daily* after meal over a period of 8 months.


 only 100 mg daily?? Apparently we're taking too much since Toco-8 supplement has *630 mg* per serving...

----------


## clandestine

Always shitter seeing a dude with a full head of hair smoking a cig, that's for sure. Don't know why this gets me, but it does.

----------


## gutted

> amazing...
> 
> this is what's interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> why would they give *soy* to the placebo group?? Why not a water pill? Soy could actually improve your hair but somehow in this study it didn't do anything....


 thats what i thought.

----------


## Jcm800

> Always shitter seeing a dude with a full head of hair smoking a cig, that's for sure. Don't know why this gets me, but it does.


 Yeah it's always a shitter as well if he happens to have a full head of hair and is fat and ugly too, seems a waste on men like that.  

Bitter, me? Nah  :Wink:

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> http://ernd.usm.my/journal/journal/T...2891-99%29.pdf


 Great find!

----------


## gutted

> I hear what you're saying gutted. I will stop shortly-I stopped for three months whilst on Trx2 didn't seem to help, but I realise it takes time. There's a plethora of reasons to stop-I dont think personally it'll help much with my hair-after all I know many smokers with full heads of hair, and also see down and outs chuffing and drinking with masses of hair. 
> On the other hand a hairloss sufferer that smokes can't afford to hinder blood flow, how's your hair coming along? Still feeling Trx2 is benefiting you?


 yeah my mates are smokers too and they have a perfectly intact hairline...but i suppose theyre not genetically prone to baldness, so smoking wont hurt them as much.

regarding trx2, its stopped my hairloss, if it stays like this im happy.

----------


## Thermal

> Just wanted to say that 125 g DAILY is an INSANE amount! 
> Usually they're used as bird food, and as such 1 kg costs around 2 euros or $3, for humans I think price goes up, because they're like non GMO etc.. 
> 
> So that means you ate 4 kg monthly! (that is A LOT.) 
> It's not that they're expensive or anything, *I'm just wondering how big is a "normal" dose, enough to feel some results?* 
> I read they're really healthy (_In addition to linoleic acid (an essential fatty acid), sunflower seeds are also an excellent source of dietary fiber, some amino acids (especially tryptophan), Vitamin E, B Vitamins (especially vitamin B1 or thiamine, vitamin B5 or pantothenic acid and folate), and minerals such as copper, manganese, potassium, magnesium, iron, phosphorus, selenium, calcium and zinc.[4] Additionally, they are rich in cholesterol-lowering phytosterols_)
> 
> I'm wondering also - that vitamin E in seeds - in which form is it?
> I bought 200 g today, and that's a big bag of them. I think it's gonna last me at least a week, or I'm gonna turn into a bird.


 Have since cut down because as well as all the other healthy substances sun flower seeds contain a lot of calories! I will continue to take them but at lower rates. 

Also saw this story today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17237569 

Suggests that Vitamin E supplements may be bad for bones.

And quitting smoking is easy - just switch to a good quality electronic cigarette (don't get a shopping centre/mall one as they generally aren't that good). Have tried a couple of normal cigarettes since the switch and didn't like them at all. I was a confirmed two pack a day man for around twenty years.

----------


## bananana

_Similar experiments in rats, including work published in 2010, found the opposite results to the latest study, even suggesting that vitamin E could be useful as a bone-growth promoting treatment for older people._

Ah, they still don't know themselves.  :Smile: 

Well, I'm truly hoping all these methods we use today will be temporary ones - it the "cure" is due in the next five years, we wont have to do these kinds of health compromises. Also I think they probably refer to "generic" kinds of vitamin E, all those 1000's % of tocopherols etc...

It was interesting (and kinda saddening) that no increase in hair width was recorded. Increase in number is great, but I thought the first research also recorded width increase. Oh, well...

We'll see how it goes.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Also, the significant vast majority of Vitamin E supplements are only of the singular form of alpha tocopherol.  I wouldn't be surprised if dosing up huge on just one of the 8 chains screws with how the body metabolizes it in general.

Plus, if you note, they say it caused problems in mice who were deficient (lacking) to _begin with_.

If you attempt to give "normal" amounts of food, even the "wrong" types, to a starving person who is deficient all around, they will eat ravenously and then kill themselves because their body simply cannot handle the sudden changes occuring to their body.

So I think its unfair to say it causes problems in mice that were lacking in the first place.

Do a study like this with totally normal, healthy, mice please.

----------


## 2020

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12032296

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Rese...ncer-treatment




> For example, anti-androgen will prevent androgen's bind on androgen receptor and *vitamin E would reduce the amount of androgen receptor*. The combination of anti-androgen and vitamin E would possibly elicit better therapy effects


 so apparently Vitamin E reduces the number of androgen receptors in your prostate... is it possible that it does the same for your scalp and could that be the reason why that toco-8 study was so successful in terms of regrowing/maintaining hair?  :Cool:

----------


## mnx

Think I'm going to have to join in on this.

Since noticing this topic, a few days ago I went to try some virgin red palm oil I happened to have sitting on shelf(I know, kind of a strange thing to have lying around, I'm obsessed with nutrition and supplements, though). Surprisingly, I felt a rush of blood in my legs from a tablespoon of it. I think there is definitely something going on there. I have my doubts that it will affect my hair, but it seems worth trying.

----------


## mnx

Also, here is some interesting information, although nothing really that new. http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.co...ural-food.html

I noticed annato has a lot of tocotrienols, almost completely devoid of tocopherols, and is quite cheap to buy in bulk. Problem is, it is sorely lacking in alpha tocotrienol(only having delta, and according to some sources gamma).

----------


## gutted

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12032296
> 
> http://www.nutraingredients.com/Rese...ncer-treatment
> 
> 
> 
> so apparently Vitamin E reduces the number of androgen receptors in your prostate... is it possible that it does the same for your scalp and could that be the reason why that toco-8 study was so successful in terms of regrowing/maintaining hair?


 i knew i had some sort of side effects from this, could it possibly be, because of this??

----------


## Ted

> i knew i had some sort of side effects from this, could it possibly be, because of this??


 What side effects did you have?

----------


## gutted

> What side effects did you have?


 i really cant be sure, but it could be possible, that with this combined with another product i expereinced sexual sides...again, im not sure about this.

----------


## Ted

> i really cant be sure, but it could be possible, that with this combined with another product i expereinced sexual sides...again, im not sure about this.


 I see. What other product were you using?

----------


## gutted

> I see. What other product were you using?


 inneov homme - it contains phytosterols, so that could be another reason as to why i was experiencing the sides. But i think its most likley the inneov, i cant be totally sure though.

----------


## clandestine

Just wanted to update, been taking toco 8 since around the 20th last month, for what will be almost 20 days now. One scoop, 630mg, at night. 

This, obviously, is not a long enough period of time to determine efficacy. But, I'll be in this for the long haul.

Some days my hair seems better than others, I just try to deal with what I've got, receded temples and all. I'm using nanogen fibres for those problem areas; strongly recommend, for those interested.

Only other product I'm using is Revita Shampoo from DS Labs as an anti-androgen for the scalp.

Oh! And I'm quitting smoking, gradually. Hopefully this will be beneficial for my hair as well, reducing oxidative stress and all.

----------


## 2020

> Just wanted to update, been taking toco 8 since around the 20th last month, for what will be almost 20 days now. One scoop, 630mg, at night. 
> 
> This, obviously, is not a long enough period of time to determine efficacy. But, I'll be in this for the long haul.
> 
> Some days my hair seems better than others, I just try to deal with what I've got, receded temples and all. I'm using nanogen fibres for those problem areas; strongly recommend, for those interested.
> 
> Only other product I'm using is Revita Shampoo from DS Labs as an anti-androgen for the scalp.
> 
> Oh! And I'm quitting smoking, gradually. Hopefully this will be beneficial for my hair as well, reducing oxidative stress and all.


 why aren't you on fin again?

----------


## clandestine

> why aren't you on fin again?


 I've had sexual side effects in the past when I was taking SSRI's for anxiety and depression. I've also encountered performance anxiety previously in my sex life, something I've had to conquer. Also, I'm dealing with hair loss at a young age. This gives me less incentive to want take hormone-altering drugs.

As you can imagine, I have reason to be cautious when deciding to take medication with potential sexual sides. I've considered taking fin, but it's more of a cost (read: potential risk) vs benefit debate in my mind at this point.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Just wanted to update, been taking toco 8 since around the 20th last month, for what will be almost 20 days now. One scoop, 630mg, at night. 
> 
> This, obviously, is not a long enough period of time to determine efficacy. But, I'll be in this for the long haul.
> 
> Some days my hair seems better than others, I just try to deal with what I've got, receded temples and all. I'm using nanogen fibres for those problem areas; strongly recommend, for those interested.
> 
> Only other product I'm using is Revita Shampoo from DS Labs as an anti-androgen for the scalp.
> 
> Oh! And I'm quitting smoking, gradually. Hopefully this will be beneficial for my hair as well, reducing oxidative stress and all.


 I thought I'd give you guys an update, been taking toco whilst starting a exercise regime. Its been a week.

I am not shedding very much. Yesterday when I washed my hair, I didn't shed any hair. I normally have 20 strands on my fingers, but I didn't notice any.

My hair is pretty thick,with slight receeded temples 'mature hairline'. So i would be happy with maintainence.

Clandestine how is revita? I used that, it hurt my hair.

----------


## gutted

> I thought I'd give you guys an update, been taking toco whilst starting a exercise regime. Its been a week.
> 
> I am not shedding very much. Yesterday when I washed my hair, I didn't shed any hair. I normally have 20 strands on my fingers, but I didn't notice any.
> 
> My hair is pretty thick,with slight receeded temples 'mature hairline'. So i would be happy with maintainence.
> 
> Clandestine how is revita? I used that, it hurt my hair.


 how long have you been on it? also do you have any itching on your scalp.

----------


## Jcm800

I've been personally on Toco caps around three weeks and have no itching or any other benefit that I can notice. I do notice more hair fall than usual in that time tho.

----------


## gutted

> I've been personally on Toco caps around three weeks and have no itching or any other benefit that I can notice. I do notice more hair fall than usual in that time tho.


 dont you get any dandruff from the minox?

----------


## Jcm800

Not really, just get a white dry residue sometimes around my hairline.

----------


## gutted

> Not really, just get a white dry residue sometimes around my hairline.


 intresting, do you use the minox foam or the solution?

----------


## clandestine

> Clandestine how is revita? I used that, it hurt my hair.


 For me it has been great so far. Hair seems healthy. I enjoy the texture it leaves my hair, smells nice. Seems to create a healthy scalp environment.

How has it hurt your hair?

----------


## Jcm800

> intresting, do you use the minox foam or the solution?


 I'm using the foam, have never used the solution.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> how long have you been on it? also do you have any itching on your scalp.


 1 week.
No itching.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> I'm using the foam, have never used the solution.


 How quickly does it dry?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> For me it has been great so far. Hair seems healthy. I enjoy the texture it leaves my hair, smells nice. Seems to create a healthy scalp environment.
> 
> How has it hurt your hair?


 Shedded a lot of hair.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> For me it has been great so far. Hair seems healthy. I enjoy the texture it leaves my hair, smells nice. Seems to create a healthy scalp environment.
> 
> How has it hurt your hair?


 BTW have you maintained?

----------


## Jcm800

> How quickly does it dry?


 Not long at all, few minutes if I rub it in.

----------


## clandestine

> BTW have you maintained?


 Tough to say. I'm not necessarily tracking my progress with photos, so I could only guess at this point. Not using propecia or anything to halt further loss either.

It's unfortunate that you've shed a lot of hair on Revita. Was it the only thing being used in your regimen at the time? Were you using other products in conjunction?

Finally, how often were you using Revita? Once a day, or twice, and how many days a week?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Tough to say. I'm not necessarily tracking my progress with photos, so I could only guess at this point. Not using propecia or anything to halt further loss either.
> 
> It's unfortunate that you've shed a lot of hair on Revita. Was it the only thing being used in your regimen at the time? Were you using other products in conjunction?
> 
> Finally, how often were you using Revita? Once a day, or twice, and how many days a week?


 When I was using it, I was using it 4 times a week. I noticed very little shedding in the shower, but my hair just seemed thinner around the front and back. Baring in mind I have quite thick hair. My hairline is just like pierce brosnans.

I was only using revita, so it was no doubt that causing it.

I then used topical spiro, and that did work around my temples. And now using toco 8 - don't seem to be shedding much with toco. 1 strand in the shower was on my fingers today

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Update.

About 2 weeks using it.

This thing has made me feel horny as ****. As for shedding, nothing noticable. Hair feels thicker, then again it could be due to it growing longer.

----------


## Zoidberg

> Update.
> 
> About 2 weeks using it.
> 
> This thing has made me feel horny as ****. As for shedding, nothing noticable. Hair feels thicker, then again it could be due to it growing longer.


 lol, I started the same day as you did yeahx3 and have had the same reaction... makes a change for a potential hair treatment to do this  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jcm800

> lol, I started the same day as you did yeahx3 and have had the same reaction... makes a change for a potential hair treatment to do this


 Zoidberg - which product are you taking exactly, also - did you order from in the UK?

----------


## Zoidberg

> Zoidberg - which product are you taking exactly, also - did you order from in the UK?


 I'm taking Toco-8. I've ordered it from two places, black bull nutrition (which I think might be counterfeit as it has a dodgy looking label and was &#163;21.99. The label looks reprinted and slightly blurred on the nutrition info) and I also ordered from best supps.co.uk which I'm feeling happier about. It has a smooth label and looks genuine but cost &#163;29.
Having mentioned the difference in quality of the label, the contents seems very similar in taste and texture... it might be the case that the black bull nutrition is very slightly more bitter. 
I might put some pictures on in a little while to show the difference in label. It might be the case that some people will tell me it is not unusual to have such a label... but I doubt it.
Or I might just contact primordial performance to find out.

----------


## Jcm800

Ok thanks bud, I'll check out the bestsupps brand I think, not even feeling hornier on the capsules lol.

----------


## Zoidberg

JCM, I got in touch with Primordial Performance last night, it seems that the Toco-8 I was concerned about is an original product that was done on an in house printing machine at Primordial Performance, it's just very old stock (it is in date until 05/12). 




> The batch of Toco-8 (M-00678) which was ordered from Blackbull nutrition was manufactured here at Primordial Headquarters.
> 
> The difference in labels can be explained; we switched from in house printing (on an old machine) to an outsourced labeling company. 
> 
> That is genuine Primordial Product, from what I can tell in this e-mail.

----------


## Jcm800

Ok mate thanks I'll look it up and order over the weekend, &#163;25 a month for the caps is a bit too rich for me.

----------


## jak385

Hey guys, I thought I'd give you my experience with toco so far on the off chance it might be helpful. I've posted a couple times last year on the forums but mostly just been a long-time lurker. Saw this thread though and decided to give toco-8 a try.

Jcm, if it helps I live in the UK and ordered toco-8 from maximumsportsnutrition for £31. Little more expensive than where Zoidberg suggested but it was free postage and arrived in 2 days i think so you could always check it out if you wanted. I've been taking it since March 1st, one scoop each night, and I'm about 1/4 through the pot so it should last me around the 2 months it says I guess. Figured £15 a month is acceptable if I get the health bonuses alone, hair help is a plus.

Can't say i've really noticed any increases in energy yet or it making me hornier, but to be fair I'm pretty randy most of the time anyway so its a good job that hasn't increased lol. I do think my beard has thickened slightly in the last couple weeks though which I'll take as a good sign. My stubble has always been on the thinner side and only reached to just under my jaw line, so my neck is basically stubble free. I was stood in front of the mirror though last week and thought to myself it looked like it was growing lower down my neck than before. I wasn't actualy looking for any new growth either, just noticed it without even thinking of toco which makes me think it might be real growth rather than me seeing what I want to see etc. Took me a second until after I saw the growth to think 'hey yeah this could be because of toco'.

Anyway, if i do notice anything worth commenting on in the coming months I'll let you guys know. I plan on taking this stuff for at least 6 months to give it chance to have any effect it can, probably more like a year to be sure so I'll try add anything helpful I can. Good luck guys!

----------


## Jcm800

Hey jak, welcome - tks for the heads up, I'll look into that as well

----------


## sausage

How come this thread cropped up a year ago and its only now that ppl are trying this Toco stuff?

If it worked as well as that guy was making out, I am sure we would know about it + these Toco ppl would be rolling in it.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> How come this thread cropped up a year ago and its only now that ppl are trying this Toco stuff?
> 
> If it worked as well as that guy was making out, I am sure we would know about it + these Toco ppl would be rolling in it.


 Because tons of people want quick fixes and the don't wait around + it might not benefit everyone in the same way.  The guy who jumps around will have no clue what works and doesn't.

And those serious about sticking with a regimen long enough that isn't fin or minox are few and far between.

Plus there is considerable distrust for things that aren't 100&#37; chemical based, in other words "natural", so a lot of folks you'd like to hear from won't even consider it worth their time.  These are also likely guys who would fall apart if you took away their fin and minox.

----------


## sausage

> Because tons of people want quick fixes and the don't wait around + it might not benefit everyone in the same way.  The guy who jumps around will have no clue what works and doesn't.
> 
> And those serious about sticking with a regimen long enough that isn't fin or minox are few and far between.
> 
> Plus there is considerable distrust for things that aren't 100% chemical based, in other words "natural", so a lot of folks you'd like to hear from won't even consider it worth their time.  These are also likely guys who would fall apart if you took away their fin and minox.


 
I am just surprised that this thread started a year ago and that no1 had commented about trying this Toco stuff out until 8-9 months down the line after no posts from anyone. Has anyone on this forum tried this stuff and how did it go?

I guess I am clutching at straws.

----------


## clandestine

> I am just surprised that this thread started a year ago and that no1 had commented about trying this Toco stuff out until 8-9 months down the line after no posts from anyone. Has anyone on this forum tried this stuff and how did it go?
> 
> I guess I am clutching at straws.


 Thread started 4 months ago.

----------


## gutted

> I am just surprised that this thread started a year ago and that no1 had commented about trying this Toco stuff out until 8-9 months down the line after no posts from anyone. Has anyone on this forum tried this stuff and how did it go?
> 
> I guess I am clutching at straws.


 i heard about it in 2009/2010 on another forum, after reading that study, i decided to try it out and the other forum members did try it out to.

i did give it a try for around 6 to 8 months, but i didnt really notice anything, but at the time i was using other stuff with it.

I decided to drop it as it was pretty expensive, and i didnt notice anything so it wasnt worth me wasting money on it.

----------


## sausage

I didn't really expect it to work, but it claims it does, I would have thought if it worked we would all know about it and be taking it. But it seems only a few people have bothered with it.

Not sure why now, late into my hairloss progression I am starting to take all these remedies for haiross. 

I guess I now have the money to throw at it and not care too much.

A year to try everything out is fine for me. Then if nothing works then its just a few hundred quid down the drain. If something does work then happy days and if my hair improves then I might possibly go down the transplant route.

Just bought some Toco-8 powder. It has other benefits and with me trying to get toned and bulked up then every little helps, so if hair does not improve then my cardio should.

As long as my pubes don't turn into afro pubes then thats fine.

----------


## Jcm800

Yep, I'm of similar outlook. I'm getting some for possible health benefits, if it helps my hair too brilliant.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Yep, I'm of similar outlook. I'm getting some for possible health benefits, if it helps my hair too brilliant.


 I am definitely shedding much less after taking toco 8. I also have more energy.

I normally shed about 20-25 strands showering, my shed count is less then 15.

Too early to say if it is a viable hair loss solution, but I have noticed that. Will be happy if I just maintain on toco 8 - health benefits attract me given that I have undertaken a work out program.

As a precautionary measure using topical spiro (on and off), an organic shampoo - avacado etc and lavander almond message oil.

----------


## sausage

> I am definitely shedding much less after taking toco 8. I also have more energy.
> 
> I normally shed about 20-25 strands showering, my shed count is less then 15.
> 
> Too early to say if it is a viable hair loss solution, but I have noticed that. Will be happy if I just maintain on toco 8 - health benefits attract me given that I have undertaken a work out program.
> 
> As a precautionary measure using topical spiro (on and off), an organic shampoo - avacado etc and lavander almond message oil.


 What is the extent of your hairloss? Have you noticed thickening of hairs in thinner areas?

I am on a muscle building programme, it is going pretty weel considering I am not really putting as much effort into it as I should. I am eating very well...the right foods and that.

Only 2 weeks of 10-15 minute weight sessions every 2-3 days and my shoulders have grown 3-4 mm's already at a guess.

Hows your routine going?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> What is the extent of your hairloss? Have you noticed thickening of hairs in thinner areas?


 Nope, at best with topical spiro, I noticed maintainance.

I have extremely thick hair, crown is ok - just my hairline and temples are a M shape.




> I am on a muscle building programme, it is going pretty weel considering I am not really putting as much effort into it as I should. I am eating very well...the right foods and that.
> 
> Only 2 weeks of 10-15 minute weight sessions every 2-3 days and my shoulders have grown 3-4 mm's already at a guess.
> 
> Hows your routine going?


 Just started; will be training 3 times a week. A bit paranoid about it to tell you the truth, I'm unclear on whether weight training causes hair loss. But at the same time, I need to work out , because I am too skinny.

Hairloss really sucks balls.

----------


## sausage

> Just started; will be training 3 times a week. A bit paranoid about it to tell you the truth, I'm unclear on whether weight training causes hair loss. But at the same time, I need to work out , because I am too skinny.
> 
> Hairloss really sucks balls.


 I am not sure weight training causes hair loss, I would not have thought so. Steroids are supposed to cause hair loss but I am not going near them.


Hair loss does suck really big hairy balls....

Completely ruined my life. I would be leading such an active, enjoyable, happy life with hair, but it's the opposite. I need to get a Mrs and settle down, but my confidence is so low I cannot get the strength to ask the ladies out. Next week I plan to finally do something about that and will be asking some sexy lady out. The sexy ladies are missing out on my girth and if I keep taking Propecia my girth could shrink.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I am not sure weight training causes hair loss, I would not have thought so. Steroids are supposed to cause hair loss but I am not going near them.
> 
> 
> Hair loss does suck really big hairy balls....
> 
> Completely ruined my life. I would be leading such an active, enjoyable, happy life with hair, but it's the opposite. I need to get a Mrs and settle down, but my confidence is so low I cannot get the strength to ask the ladies out. Next week I plan to finally do something about that and will be asking some sexy lady out. The sexy ladies are missing out on my girth and if I keep taking Propecia my girth could shrink.


 When you work out doesn't test levels go up?

Yeah I feel the same way now, I am quite successful in my life, but with the onset of hairloss - although not severe, it feels like a race against time to get a mrs and settle down...before my looks fade. Otherwise I would happily be playing the field right now.

Even if my hairloss does not progress (touch wood), I have no idea knowing. Which is a horrible sit to be in.

The worst thing is, there are a lot of guys out there that do not have to worry about this at all..and yeah I guess they are generally happier.

I really hope histogen, replicel , or Aderans release some sort of a cure soon. Money is not a major issue. Just there is so much shit on the market to spend it on.

----------


## sausage

> When you work out doesn't test levels go up?
> 
> Yeah I feel the same way now, I am quite successful in my life, but with the onset of hairloss - although not severe, it feels like a race against time to get a mrs and settle down...before my looks fade. Otherwise I would happily be playing the field right now.
> 
> Even if my hairloss does not progress (touch wood), I have no idea knowing. Which is a horrible sit to be in.
> 
> The worst thing is, there are a lot of guys out there that do not have to worry about this at all..and yeah I guess they are generally happier.
> 
> I really hope histogen, replicel , or Aderans release some sort of a cure soon. Money is not a major issue. Just there is so much shit on the market to spend it on.


 I don't really know how much testosterone levels affect hair loss, I have just read it can, maybe it depends on the person. I worked out in my uni years a lot but I would not say my hair loss accelerated at that time.

This is from the description of Toco-8: "Tocotrienols play an important role in increasing the "hormone production" signal from the brain to the testes, while also increasing the testes testosterone production capacity.".....

So this Toco stuff increases testosterone levels which can increase hair loss yet it is supposed to help improve you hair. :s confusion.

Hopefully Replicel will announce some positive results next month, we can only hope.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I don't really know how much testosterone levels affect hair loss, I have just read it can, maybe it depends on the person. I worked out in my uni years a lot but I would not say my hair loss accelerated at that time.
> 
> This is from the description of Toco-8: "Tocotrienols play an important role in increasing the "hormone production" signal from the brain to the testes, while also increasing the testes testosterone production capacity.".....
> 
> So this Toco stuff increases testosterone levels which can increase hair loss yet it is supposed to help improve you hair. :s confusion.
> 
> Hopefully Replicel will announce some positive results next month, we can only hope.


 There is beta sterosol in it too.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> I don't really know how much testosterone levels affect hair loss, I have just read it can, maybe it depends on the person. I worked out in my uni years a lot but I would not say my hair loss accelerated at that time.


 When you exercise your muscles, your body responds by producing more testosterone to build those muscles.  This increase is then results in additional free testosterone that is, well, free to be bound to by 5AR and converted into DHT.  Obviously the additional test is used for everything else in order to build muscle mass - but it won't just use all the excess its not possible.  You hear about people weight lifting who take 5AR inhibiters to prevent balding, but they also take aromatase inhibiters in order to lessen the effects of rising estradiol.  So if you're taking finasteride and lifting heavy you may need to consider an A.I. as well.




> This is from the description of Toco-8: "Tocotrienols play an important role in increasing the "hormone production" signal from the brain to the testes, while also increasing the testes testosterone production capacity.".....
> 
> So this Toco stuff increases testosterone levels which can increase hair loss yet it is supposed to help improve you hair. :s confusion.


 Because it acts on two levels.  While the increase in test occurs, and its likely minimal overall, Vitamin E itself helps the scalp health and hair strength.

----------


## sausage

Woah! I was not expecting this Toco-8 stuff to be in such a small container.

&#163;28 for that, these supplement stores + manufacturers must be making a killing.

Wonder what it tastes like?

Will be starting the stuff 2moro. To be honest I expect nothing. But hey ho.

----------


## clandestine

> You hear about people weight lifting who take 5AR inhibiters to prevent balding, but they also take aromatase inhibiters in order to lessen the effects of rising estradiol.  So if you're taking finasteride and lifting heavy you may need to consider an A.I. as well.


 Lift weights to look better if balding, balding if lift weights to look better. Life is compromise, no?

----------


## Kirby_

> Woah! I was not expecting this Toco-8 stuff to be in such a small container.
> 
> £28 for that, these supplement stores + manufacturers must be making a killing.
> 
> Wonder what it tastes like?
> 
> Will be starting the stuff 2moro. To be honest I expect nothing. But hey ho.


 Where are you sourcing this from in the UK mate?

----------


## clandestine

Today marks the one month mark for me on toco-8.

----------


## Jcm800

> Today marks the one month mark for me on toco-8.


 Any changes going on mate?

----------


## jak385

> Woah! I was not expecting this Toco-8 stuff to be in such a small container.
> 
> £28 for that, these supplement stores + manufacturers must be making a killing.
> 
> Wonder what it tastes like?
> 
> Will be starting the stuff 2moro. To be honest I expect nothing. But hey ho.


 Not sure if you've looked inside the container yet but there should be a little scoop in there that you use to take it, to make sure you take the right amount each time. I've took it 20 times now and have just over half left so it should last me close to the 2 months it stated in the descriptions, 7 weeks definitely I would say. Guess hopefully it's quality over quantity?

As for taste....it's disgusting lol. It's how I imagine it would taste and feel to try and eat talcum powder. I pour some water in my mouth first and then drop it in and swallow, stops it all getting stuck in your mouth and helps you avoid the taste a bit.

Just a heads up in case you read this before your first try  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## sausage

> Where are you sourcing this from in the UK mate?


 I didn't really bother shopping around, there may be cheaper sources but I used a site called bestsupps.

I just had another quick search and they are all around that price wherever you look.

Hows your toco programme going. I am expecting absolute zero results, I am a pessimist though. But just looking around the net on forums people only really say it grows hair faster.

----------


## sausage

> As for taste....it's disgusting lol.


 I saw your post after I tried it lol....

and yes it tastes like crap.

I did not want to try it on its own as I was pretty sure it would be nasty so chucked it in with some orange juice thinking it would just blend in but it just clumps up into small lumps and you can taste the hideous nastyness of it.

Think I need to find a better way of consuming this rancid crap.

----------


## Zoidberg

I didn't think it tasted too bad, quite smooth and without too much flavour. I'm quite happy to tip a scoop in my mouth and wash it straight down.
Now if you have ever tried grape seed extract... that is some repugnant stuff!

----------


## Kirby_

> Hows your toco programme going. I am expecting absolute zero results, I am a pessimist though. But just looking around the net on forums people only really say it grows hair faster.


 Mine? Haven't given it a go yet. Honestly wouldn't mind trying it for thirty quid for two months' worth. Nothing to lose.

----------


## sausage

> Mine? Haven't given it a go yet. Honestly wouldn't mind trying it for thirty quid for two months' worth. Nothing to lose.


 Oh rite, furry muff.

Yeah worth a go. I am not expecting any results. Just splashing the cash everywhere on treatments at the moment and seeing if anything happens within 6-12 months. If my treatment programme at least reasonably improves the state of my hair I will be getting a HT.

This Toco-8 stuff is completely random, I very much doubt it will do anything for my hair, people say it makes hair grow faster so maybe with the use of Propecia hairs could improve quicker due to the faster growth of the hair.

----------


## clandestine

Personally, I enjoy the taste. 




> Any changes going on mate?


 Tough to say, and likely not significant, as it's only been a month so far. I'll be sure to update, should I see anything interesting, though.

----------


## sausage

I tried the tipping it in the mouth and swishing it down with water technique, its works better - less suffering.

----------


## bananana

Hi guys.

Just wondering about intake of tocotrienols and sunflower seeds (rich in tocopherol alpha see table number 2) - it should probably be in different times of day?
Since tocotrienols and tocopherol don't go well together in big quantities.
I started eating 20-50 grams (around 25 mg of tocopherol alpha) of sunflower seeds daily 3 weeks ago (they taste quite good  :Smile: ).

I'm still waiting on my toco from swanson - they had some issues with shipping apparently... 

ps - I think the best method for assessing the results would be taking photos at baseline, 3 months and 6 months. Looking in the mirror every other day and expecting a miracle isn't fruitful.  :Smile:

----------


## sausage

no idea...

I got some free sample sachet of pre workout raspberry lemonade powder. 

Weird stuff, tasted like raspberry sherbert mixed with paracetamol. 

Just worked out. Feel knackered. 6x heavy weight rows on my multigym, gonna get hench.

Gotta get me one of those t shirts that says 'get hench or die trying'.

Or maybe one that says 'get hair or die trying'

----------


## Kirby_

These supplements don't happen to contain Vitamin E succinate, do they?

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> These supplements don't happen to contain Vitamin E succinate, do they?


 Don't believe so, its just the plain vanilla 4 chains each of the pherols and trienols.

----------


## 2020

another reason to take toco-8?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9223656




> Supplementation with 1-10 microg/ml vitamin E succinate resulted in a significant (P < or = 0.05) decrease in *PGD2* levels at vitamin concentrations of 3, 5, 7 and 10 microg/ml respectively...


 
and now this:




> According to recent discovery by the researchers, it is said that *Prostaglandin D2* is an abnormal amount of a protein in the bald scalp of men with male pattern baldness. In both human and animal models, a prostaglandin known as PGD2 and its derivative , 15-dPGJ 2, inhibit hair growth. The PGD2-related inhibition occurred through a receptor which is a therapeutic target for androgenetic alopecia in both men and women with hair loss and thinning.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Perhaps thats why it has worked for some folks to stave off the progression...those who have much higher levels of PGD2 get more benefit.
-------
Smallish update from me on my nearing one month use of toco8.

I got my hair cut on Feb 28th (started Toco8 Feb 29th) and plan to get it cut with the stylist every 6 weeks....but already I'm feeling it needs to be cut.  Perhaps its just unwarranted enthusiasm but it does seem like my hair has grown faster and is somewhat thicker.  Can't really say density wise.    I also feel that my facial hair is growing faster too.  I generally only shave every 3 days but lately it seems like 3 days is pushing it with what I feel comfortable sporting.  I've done a terrible job of "tracking" the hair though...I'm doing what I can to minimize the thoughts about it.  I've actually had a fantastic last 3-4 weeks and have not had any depressive periods.  I joke more about it to myself in the mirror in the morning too, I suppose that helps  :Smile:   We'll see when I get my hair cut if that attitude changes and the thinning becomes a bit more obvious.

I have noticed my scalp has stopped itching in the last couple weeks also.  Prior to starting this I'd get random head itches throughout the day - but the last couple weeks its been no more then a normal head scratch.  Only thing that has changed in my regimen is the addition of Toco8.

----------


## 2020

what else is in your regimen?

----------


## sausage

I have been taking it for a week and have not noticed anything yet.

My hair, both beard and head is not growing faster which most people seem to say happens.

Early days though...



Also good to hear that it apparently decreases PGD2 levels.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I have been taking it for a week and have not noticed anything yet.
> 
> My hair, both beard and head is not growing faster which most people seem to say happens.
> 
> Early days though...
> 
> 
> 
> Also good to hear that it apparently decreases PGD2 levels.


 I put toco in my protein shake, is this advisable?

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> what else is in your regimen?


 Well, as it relates to my hair specifically only two things.

I started using TOWEL DRY THICKENING Shampoo every 1 or 2 days since December at the suggestion of the stylist.

I started taking Toco8 beginning of this month.

But other _supplements_ I take are:
Daily 1200mg Fish Oil (sometimes twice/day)

Daily 1000IU Vitamin D

Daily Nutrilite Multivitamin

I've been taking the Nutrilite for probably 20 years, the Vitamin D since November? and the Fish Oil since mid-January.





> I put toco in my protein shake, is this advisable?


 I don't see why it wouldn't be. I can't imagine it would lessen the effectiveness. Might want to query Primordial Performance though see what they say.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Well, as it relates to my hair specifically only two things.
> 
> I started using TOWEL DRY THICKENING Shampoo every 1 or 2 days since December at the suggestion of the stylist.
> 
> I started taking Toco8 beginning of this month.
> 
> But other _supplements_ I take are:
> Daily 1200mg Fish Oil (sometimes twice/day)
> 
> ...


 Is your regime helping?

----------


## AgainstThis

I'm interested in this.

And there's seriously not one guy with before/after toco pictures? In all the internet? Seriously?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I'm interested in this.
> 
> And there's seriously not one guy with before/after toco pictures? In all the internet? Seriously?


 tbh at best you will probably get maintainence, which if so, nothing really to document.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Is your regime helping?


 For the hair?  meh I have no idea to be honest.  I'm really not tracking the changes from month to month.  I will say that my hair seems more dry since using the TOWEL DRY.  Though I think I'm going to change that come next hair cut.  I'll get a day/hours before from front, top and back and then an after photo of the same.

I've mentioned before...at this point I'm not terribly concerned about losing it, I'm far more worried about _looking bad_.

We'll see if that changes as the loss increases.

----------


## bananana

My 6-months toco dose finally arrived.

A quick question - I've been eating around 50 grams of sunflower seeds for a month now. BUT they're loaded with tocopherols (alpha the most), so that doesn't go well with tocotrienols - what do you suggest?

1. Do I quit eating sunflower seeds for good?
2. Do I eat sunflower seeds maybe a few hours apart from toco?
(and how many hours?) Also should I lower the seed intake?

What do you think?


Ps, I'm also drinking soy milk and eating hot peppers for a month now. 
Maybe it will make a good combo with toco hairwise, since both things are good for the hair.
I lost a couple of pounds already, I can ride a bike for almost 20 kilometres now with no fatigue, I can do 30 pushups standing on my hands (legs above head), and something else - chicks DIG me like never before!
I'm in this new college now (economics), and 2 girls have fallen in love and admitted it to me, 2 more really like me, one of them is a local singing star.
I mean what the **** - can you believe this?! And I told them I don't want a relationship etc... (because of my hair problem - but ofc they don't know it).
But the more I push them away the more they want me!
Crazy shit!

----------


## sausage

> I'm in this new college now (economics), and 2 girls have fallen in love and admitted it to me, 2 more really like me, one of them is a local singing star.
> I mean what the **** - can you believe this?! And I told them I don't want a relationship etc... (because of my hair problem - but ofc they don't know it).
> But the more I push them away the more they want me!
> Crazy shit!


 Your a Male God!

Your like the man on the beach from the lynx advert.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> My 6-months toco dose finally arrived.
> 
> A quick question - I've been eating around 50 grams of sunflower seeds for a month now. BUT they're loaded with tocopherols (alpha the most), so that doesn't go well with tocotrienols - what do you suggest?
> 
> 1. Do I quit eating sunflower seeds for good?
> 2. Do I eat sunflower seeds maybe a few hours apart from toco?
> (and how many hours?) Also should I lower the seed intake?
> 
> What do you think?
> ...


 
Toco8 is a complete vitamin E - it has well over the RDA for the tocopherol side and the tocotrienols aren't even measured so who knows.  There is no need for sunflower seeds really, but if they're a habit to eat, I'd keep it separate by at least half a day, allow your body to "use" the alpha-tocopherol of the Toco8 before you add any more.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Your a Male God!
> 
> Your like the man on the beach from the lynx advert.


 I got into my first relationship after I suffered from hairloss.

----------


## bananana

> Your a Male God!
> 
> Your like the man on the beach from the lynx advert.


 Hahaha, I just watched the advert - it's funny.
My situation - not so much.  :Wink: 

Man, this couldn't be more ironic even if made this up.
Just a few years ago I was dying to find a decent chick. Now I got hot girls running around me and I couldn't care less. :/
Hope things will change...

@not believing it
thanx for the advice - I'll follow it.

Ps, also I'm way more calm than before - I take thats from all the B vitamins intake (I read they have a great effect on nerves...)
At least this hairloss problem got me to live, eat and drink more healthier than ever before.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> At least this hairloss problem got me to live, eat and drink more healthier than ever before.


 Yeah so true!

I believe its been 3 weeks since using toco.

I am definently shedding much less. 1-4 strands max I find on my fingers when showering etc. It used to be 20.

I am definently a lot more hornier since using this stuff. I also feel generally healthier.

Too early to say if it is having a positive affect on my hair. But yeah, my hair looks the same.

----------


## sausage

> Just a few years ago I was dying to find a decent chick. Now I got hot girls running around me and I couldn't care less. :/


 Just make sure you don't regret not getting with these girls.

I remember when I was at school, a fair few girls liked me, but cos I was young I was not overly fussed about getting with them and knew I had my whole life ahead of me so I thought if girls are after me now then the future will be awesome. Know one else was bothering with girlfriends so nor was I.....

But then things changed, leaving school (a place where hundreds of girls exist so a few are bound to fancy u if u r decent looking) and going to a small 6th form college it changed and I no longer had the interest I had at school and I started losing my hair and had no confidence to go up to girls.

I just loved the interest at school it made me feel confident, flattered, happy, when you have a few girls pouring all over u, u feel in charge and on a high, but once that goes........u realise u should have taken things further.

----------


## bananana

I completely understand you (and agree).
But you must know I'm using nanofibres now - my hair looks great, even though it's quite short now, but I know it's all a lie - they don't.

Just the other day I had an awkward experience with a **** friend of mine.
I went down on her and as I licked it and she was moaning - she started to touch my head/hair (naturally) and I was FREAKED - cause I had nanofibres, I was afraid she would notice it, so I had to pretend to be a cop and hold her both hands with one of mine while I do her. 
 :Big Grin: 

I mean - it's very frustrating - these intimate moments. 
Thats the main reason I don't want a girlfriend now, adventure yes - but girlfriend no. 

As I said, I've been on soy+capsaicin+green tea for over a month, and toco since yesterday, I expect some improvement on my hair by august.

Plus I engage in exercise regularly...

----------


## cleverusername

> I completely understand you (and agree).
> But you must know I'm using nanofibres now - my hair looks great, even though it's quite short now, but I know it's all a lie - they don't.
> 
> Just the other day I had an awkward experience with a **** friend of mine.
> I went down on her and as I licked it and she was moaning - she started to touch my head/hair (naturally) and I was FREAKED - cause I had nanofibres, I was afraid she would notice it, so I had to pretend to be a cop and hold her both hands with one of mine while I do her. 
> 
> 
> I mean - it's very frustrating - these intimate moments. 
> Thats the main reason I don't want a girlfriend now, adventure yes - but girlfriend no. 
> ...


 Hey man, I'm really glad you're still having success with the ladies even though you have hair loss hair loss. It's good to read positive stuff on these boards. I myself have been on rogaine for the past 1.5 months and I'm interested in adding the stuff you mentioned in the above post to my regimen. Where did you get your toco and soy+capsaicin? I'm drinking soy milk haha, does that count?

----------


## bananana

> Hey man, I'm really glad you're still having success with the ladies even though you have hair loss hair loss. It's good to read positive stuff on these boards. I myself have been on rogaine for the past 1.5 months and I'm interested in adding the stuff you mentioned in the above post to my regimen. Where did you get your toco and soy+capsaicin? I'm drinking soy milk haha, does that count?


 Thanks man, but I have success cause I use nanofibres, so it's all a big, fat lie - if you know what I mean.  :Wink: 

As for the regime, it's pretty simple. I drink at least 3 glasses of soy milk/beverage (it says on the label it's 12% soybeans inside) and I eat chili peppers with each meal and/or use cayenne pepper sprinkled on top of meals.

I started with isoflavone extract the other day (50 mg, 40% - so I guess its around 20 mg pure isoflavones).

I think all that combo lowered my DHT because a few of my female friends mentioned my skin is prettier, and I'm prettier in general (lol).
It also might be because it's spring time that they're interested in me, but it's evident that my body changed (for the better).

Also, I found thermascalp cayenne extract scalp lotion on ebay - it gets the blood flowing through scalp (might be a good thing to try).

Ps, you can get capsaicin and soy isoflavones in pills if you don't like spicy food and/or drinking soy.  :Smile:

----------


## Jamie

Is cayene pepper good?

----------


## bananana

> Is cayene pepper good?


 What do you mean? 
You mean is it good for hair?

Yes, it contains capsaicin. It very uncertain how many mg it has. Depends on how "strong" it is.

----------


## sausage

> Just the other day I had an awkward experience with a **** friend of mine.
> I went down on her and as I licked it and she was moaning - she started to touch my head/hair (naturally) and I was FREAKED - cause I had nanofibres, I was afraid she would notice it, so I had to pretend to be a cop and hold her both hands with one of mine while I do her.


 Do it 69 style next time then she's knowhere near your hair.

----------


## cleverusername

> Thanks man, but I have success cause I use nanofibres, so it's all a big, fat lie - if you know what I mean. 
> 
> As for the regime, it's pretty simple. I drink at least 3 glasses of soy milk/beverage (it says on the label it's 12% soybeans inside) and I eat chili peppers with each meal and/or use cayenne pepper sprinkled on top of meals.
> 
> I started with isoflavone extract the other day (50 mg, 40% - so I guess its around 20 mg pure isoflavones).
> 
> I think all that combo lowered my DHT because a few of my female friends mentioned my skin is prettier, and I'm prettier in general (lol).
> It also might be because it's spring time that they're interested in me, but it's evident that my body changed (for the better).
> 
> ...


 I love spicy food haha. Also I now prefer soy milk over 2% or whatever it is. I noticed after kicking the dairy my skin is definitely looking better, no change in the hair yet though. What brand of tocotrienols are you using if you don't mind me asking? also I was thinking about trying out nano fibres myself soon, can you still workout and everything and everything stays intact? and is it all that noticeable? like if I'm with a girl and she starts playing with my hair will she immediately be ask what the hell is in my hair? Lol sorry for so many questions bro, any info is appreciated though. 

Ps lie or not success is success lol

----------


## bananana

> I love spicy food haha. Also I now prefer soy milk over 2% or whatever it is. I noticed after kicking the dairy my skin is definitely looking better, no change in the hair yet though. What brand of tocotrienols are you using if you don't mind me asking? also I was thinking about trying out nano fibres myself soon, can you still workout and everything and everything stays intact? and is it all that noticeable? like if I'm with a girl and she starts playing with my hair will she immediately be ask what the hell is in my hair? Lol sorry for so many questions bro, any info is appreciated though. 
> 
> Ps lie or not success is success lol


 I'm using toco-sorb pills, 2 per day.
Nanofibres are great, but I'm not sure girl can fiddle with you hair and not notice - MAYBE if you would use A LOT of hair spray to make it stick, but still it's better she don't.  :Smile: 
You can workout and it sticks, no problem with that.

----------


## clandestine

> I love spicy food haha. Also I now prefer soy milk over 2% or whatever it is. I noticed after kicking the dairy my skin is definitely looking better, no change in the hair yet though. What brand of tocotrienols are you using if you don't mind me asking? also I was thinking about trying out nano fibres myself soon, can you still workout and everything and everything stays intact? and is it all that noticeable? like if I'm with a girl and she starts playing with my hair will she immediately be ask what the hell is in my hair? Lol sorry for so many questions bro, any info is appreciated though. 
> 
> Ps lie or not success is success lol


 She likely will not notice. If you're using around the temples, though, it can start to look a little weird.

----------


## Samiam

OK so I heard about shit stuff over at ************.com and started searching around to see of any anecdotal evidence for it. I started reading the beginning of this thread and noticed that nut kept talking about beard growth. Beard and body hair growth is actually promoted by DHT, so if this is causing a lot of beard growth, and the website says "Tocotrienols play an important role in increasing the "hormone production" signal from the brain to the testes, while also increasing the testes testosterone production capacity." (9-11)




It sounds like this stuff would actually be bad for MPB right? I mean I know someone else on here knows that body and facial hair growth is promoted by DHT, so any increase in body and facial hair would probably be an increase in DHT.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> OK so I heard about shit stuff over at ************.com and started searching around to see of any anecdotal evidence for it. I started reading the beginning of this thread and noticed that nut kept talking about beard growth. Beard and body hair growth is actually promoted by DHT, so if this is causing a lot of beard growth, and the website says "Tocotrienols play an important role in increasing the "hormone production" signal from the brain to the testes, while also increasing the testes testosterone production capacity." (9-11)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like this stuff would actually be bad for MPB right? I mean I know someone else on here knows that body and facial hair growth is promoted by DHT, so any increase in body and facial hair would probably be an increase in DHT.


 DHT is the *reason* hair starts growing other places.  There isn't an increase in body hair count, there is a density and speed at which it grows.  That isn't a result of DHT.

There was discussion about Vitamin E increasing testosterone which would increase DHT, but the rest of the story is that it promotes vascular and skin health which in turn helps to mitigate the squeeze of DHT.

----------


## johnnyboots

Been on it for years really has not helped or hurt my hair.

----------


## sausage

> Been on it for years really has not helped or hurt my hair.


 how about your skin or your fitness?

----------


## johnnyboots

> how about your skin or your fitness?


 Work out 5 days a week take a lot of supplements hard to say.I am 47 some people think i look 37, lol.

----------


## clandestine

> Been on it for years really has not helped or hurt my hair.


 Which brand? Also, would you say you've at all maintained (your hair)?

----------


## 2020

> Which brand? Also, would you say you've at all maintained (your hair)?


 there is only one brand... TOCO-8.

If you people are taking toco-sorb or whatever else then you're wasting time as that's not the "real" toco that was used in that study.

----------


## Samiam

I'm sorry but I thought it was common knowledge in the hl community that DHT regulates facial and body hair growth, meaning an increase in facial and body hair is an increase in DHT, which also causes the follicles up top to shrink. This is generally where the whole "harrier men are generally more bald" view comes from.

----------


## sausage

Toco-8 slightly increases Testosterone levels and DHT but the totriocycloneythingy's help keep the hair.

I do hope that taking Toco-8 is not going to halt Propecia working though?

----------


## bananana

Then it's a good idea to use saw palmetto and other dht blockers/inhibitors while using toco?

Ps, the only reason I ordered toco sorb instead of toco 8 is that its 1/3 of a price and at that time I haven't found real arguments that go to toco-8's side.

I took photographs on the day I started and I'll take them on 6 months mark, then we'll see. If it doesn't work, I'll switch to toco-8, even thou its $30-$40 (+ shipping) per month.  :Frown: 

goddamn DHT...

----------


## bananana

ps, what do you think about this product.

For better circulation? Would that benefit the hair as probably it would strengthen the blood flow all over the body (scalp too)?

----------


## johnnyboots

> Which brand? Also, would you say you've at all maintained (your hair)?


 toco 8 and yes i do not lose hair just haven't grown any.

----------


## 2020

ok so I've quit finasteride temporarily... the itching came back. Been taking Toco-8 for the past two days - the itching stopped. Interesting... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Jcm800

> ok so I've quit finasteride temporarily... the itching came back. Been taking Toco-8 for the past two days - the itching stopped. Interesting...


 You always doggedly defend Finasteride. What's made you take a break then? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## 2020

> You always doggedly defend Finasteride. What's made you take a break then?


 I simply ran out of it. My old pharmacy 4rx.com no longer accepts credit cards from USA so I had to find another pharmacy. Now I have to wait two weeks until they ship it to me...

Anyways, the fact that the itching stopped without any DHT blockers is a good sign. We'll see if I get any real results within the next 6 months

----------


## cleverusername

2020, do you know if this place is legit to buy toco 8? 

http://www.primordialperformance.com...ine_toco8.html

----------


## 2020

> 2020, do you know if this place is legit to buy toco 8? 
> 
> http://www.primordialperformance.com...ine_toco8.html


 well their forum has about 30K members so yeah I'm pretty sure they're legit.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> 2020, do you know if this place is legit to buy toco 8? 
> 
> http://www.primordialperformance.com...ine_toco8.html


 Er

Primordial Performance is the supplement company that "makes" Toco8.

Says so right on my little jar.

----------


## greatjob!

> I simply ran out of it. My old pharmacy 4rx.com no longer accepts credit cards from USA so I had to find another pharmacy. Now I have to wait two weeks until they ship it to me...
> 
> Anyways, the fact that the itching stopped without any DHT blockers is a good sign. We'll see if I get any real results within the next 6 months


 dude why don't you get generic proscar? My Fry's pharmacy price matched Walmart so I get 4 months supply for $9. No waiting and no worry of dealing with shady companies.

----------


## 2020

> dude why don't you get generic proscar? My Fry's pharmacy price matched Walmart so I get 4 months supply for $9. No waiting and no worry of dealing with shady companies.


 because you need a prescription for that...

----------


## greatjob!

well then get a perscription. save you alot of money, hassle, and chance of recieving bad drugs.

----------


## Kirby_

Right, Toco-8 ordered and en route, let's see if it helps at all...  :Embarrassment:

----------


## sausage

Good luck and good luck to all Toco-8 takers.

----------


## gc83uk

Looks like a lot of people have bought this recently.  Any updates?

Is it worth taking for just holding on to what you have? I'm not expecting any miracles with it, just something to reduce the shedding slightly would be good.

----------


## 2020

> Is it worth taking for just holding on to what you have? I'm not expecting any miracles with it, just something to reduce the shedding slightly would be good.


 probably...in that study people actually improved their hair count without taking anything else. 
It also has many other benefits, so the absolute worse case scenario is that it will just make you healthier.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## clandestine

> Looks like a lot of people have bought this recently.  Any updates?
> 
> Is it worth taking for just holding on to what you have? I'm not expecting any miracles with it, just something to reduce the shedding slightly would be good.


 Nearing 2 month mark (April 20th). Will update if i notice anything significant; can't say I have yet.

Is nice to use in conjunction with working out, though. As 2020 said^..

----------


## gc83uk

not even a reduction in shedding?

Yes well I actually started today on a new fitness program, so hopefully I can stick with it and also take this toco8 stuff.

----------


## vwimports

Wow so I read this entire thread and decided to take a chance on this. To summarize Taco-8 seems to be the best route and http://www.primordialperformance.com...ine_toco8.html seems to be the best place to purchase it, correct?

----------


## clandestine

> not even a reduction in shedding?
> 
> Yes well I actually started today on a new fitness program, so hopefully I can stick with it and also take this toco8 stuff.


 gc; Your 'sticking with it' remains solely on your choice whether or not to do so. I wish you good luck in your endeavors.

vwimports; Yes.

----------


## sausage

Bloody hell!! You Americans get it for half the price us Brits get it for.

It cost me about £30 for a 38g little tub, that website ^ sells it for the equivalent of about £16. 



2-3 weeks on the stuff myself, Propecia and Minox and nothing yet.

I guess I will have to wait at least 4months before I notice anything. I expect nothing. I will be astonished if I see any improvement whatsover. I would expect my hairloss to be worse in 4 months time seeing as baldness is progressive.

We shall see....

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Update.

Hair is still the same, got it cut today.

Dont know if that is down to the toco, or down to the fact that I have very slow hairloss.

I have been taking toco for a month and 2 weeks i think...and i am working out heavily.

----------


## 2020

> Update.
> 
> Hair is still the same, got it cut today.
> 
> Dont know if that is down to the toco, or down to the fact that I have very slow hairloss.
> 
> I have been taking toco for a month and 2 weeks i think...and i am working out heavily.


 what else are you taking besides toco-8? How old are you?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> what else are you taking besides toco-8? How old are you?


 I am 26.

Aside from toco-8, I am taking multi vits, l-cystine, and I use an organic shampoo that hasn't got any SLS in it.

Diet is quite healthy too, a lot of fruit,veg, fish etc.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I am 26.
> 
> Aside from toco-8, I am taking multi vits, l-cystine, and I use an organic shampoo that hasn't got any SLS in it.
> 
> Diet is quite healthy too, a lot of fruit,veg, fish etc.


 I also occasionally use topical Spiro, less so now days.

----------


## Davey Jones

I started Toco-8 yesterday.  Like everyone else, I'll post updates if I notice anything.  Gotta grow my hair out for a bit to get an idea for the current state of things.

Is anybody noticing anything yet?  I see Clandestine is coming up on two months on my birthday.  I'm birthday wishing for some hair for you, though I gotta admit, it's mostly because that would probably mean hair for me here in a couple months.

(As a side note, I've got a pretty good idea how fast my lifts typically go up week by week.  If I feel like those are helped along, I'll comment on that, if anyone cares.  This _is_ a workout supplement, afterall.)

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I started Toco-8 yesterday.  Like everyone else, I'll post updates if I notice anything.  Gotta grow my hair out for a bit to get an idea for the current state of things.
> 
> Is anybody noticing anything yet?  I see Clandestine is coming up on two months on my birthday.  I'm birthday wishing for some hair for you, though I gotta admit, it's mostly because that would probably mean hair for me here in a couple months.
> 
> (As a side note, I've got a pretty good idea how fast my lifts typically go up week by week.  If I feel like those are helped along, I'll comment on that, if anyone cares.  This _is_ a workout supplement, afterall.)


 My libido is higher since taking this stuff. 

I think at best all you can expect from toco-8 is maintainence. My hair got complimented by my hairdresser today, which felt good.

----------


## Davey Jones

> My libido is higher since taking this stuff.


 How long have you been taking it?  And how long was it before you noticed that your libido was higher?

----------


## clandestine

> I started Toco-8 yesterday.  Like everyone else, I'll post updates if I notice anything.  Gotta grow my hair out for a bit to get an idea for the current state of things.
> 
> Is anybody noticing anything yet?  I see Clandestine is coming up on two months on my birthday.  I'm birthday wishing for some hair for you, though I gotta admit, it's mostly because that would probably mean hair for me here in a couple months.
> 
> (As a side note, I've got a pretty good idea how fast my lifts typically go up week by week.  If I feel like those are helped along, I'll comment on that, if anyone cares.  This _is_ a workout supplement, afterall.)


 Unfortunately I feel my hair loss is progressing. I fear that if it I do not take more dire measures in an attempt to slow or stop its progress, then it will indeed get worse.

I've been considering maybe saw palmetto, or beta sitosterol. I'm noticing temples are thinner behind (further back) than my initial recession, there is some vertex or crown thinning as well (not as noticeable).

It will be two months on toco 8 on the 20th, almost done the first container.  Doesn't hurt my workouts, that's for sure.

As a note, doesitwork, a member who posted earlier in the thread (page 6?) and a proponent of tocotrienols as a treatment for hairloss, said it took around 5 months before he noticed any positive changes. That said, positive changes he did indeed notice.

----------


## Thinning@30

For those of you still trialing this stuff, do you think it has reduced any of your MPB-related scalp itching?  I seem to recall someone mentioning in a post a while back that they thought they had less itching while on this stuff.

----------


## 2020

> For those of you still trialing this stuff, do you think it has reduced any of your MPB-related scalp itching?  I seem to recall someone mentioning in a post a while back that they thought they had less itching while on this stuff.


 yeah I think that was me..... I ran out of finasteride and had to wait 2 weeks for  new pills to arrive. Itching came back, but then I started taking toco-8(without fin) and the itch stopped....

----------


## Thinning@30

> yeah I think that was me..... I ran out of finasteride and had to wait 2 weeks for new pills to arrive. Itching came back, but then I started taking toco-8(without fin) and the itch stopped....


 Interesting.  Thanks for the response 2020.  I guess only time will tell if there is any benefit to this stuff.

----------


## Gjm127

So I've been taking these everyday for the past month:
1) Toco-8 (1 scoop)
2) Resveratrol (1 pill)
3) Black tea (1 tea bag)

Itching has stopped (but comes back rarely...)
Hair on my chest has grown by 20% (in fact, my skin treatment therapist noticed it the minute I took off my shirt)
Shedding has slightly decreased, getting better every time I shower it seems.

Will keep you guys posted every month.

----------


## 2020

^ is that ALL you've been taking for hair loss?

I've been taking toco for 3 weeks or so and I think my eyebrows are thicker....  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> 2) Resveratrol (1 pill)


 I'm considering adding this too...just not sure an appropriate dosage.  The whole connection with MPB as a result of PDG2 is too new.

----------


## Gjm127

> ^ is that ALL you've been taking for hair loss?
> 
> I've been taking toco for 3 weeks or so and I think my eyebrows are thicker....


 Yes, I'm going ALL natural. I'm one of those that doesn't want to start medication and make my hair dependant.

No I am serious, my chest hair has increased...
Can't say the same for my beard growth speed, but it's a start  :Smile:

----------


## clandestine

Passed the two month mark 6 days ago. Nothing terribly significant to report.

----------


## clandestine

> Yes, I'm going ALL natural. I'm one of those that doesn't want to start medication and make my hair dependant.
> 
> No I am serious, my chest hair has increased...
> Can't say the same for my beard growth speed, but it's a start


 Where'd you buy your Resveratrol?

----------


## cleverusername

> Passed the two month mark 6 days ago. Nothing terribly significant to report.


 That sucks.. I just ordered mine last night, hopefully it does something beneficial.

----------


## clandestine

> That sucks.. I just ordered mine last night, hopefully it does something beneficial.


 Remember, 2 months is still too soon to really gauge whether it is beneficial as a treatment option.

----------


## cleverusername

> Remember, 2 months is still too soon to really gauge whether it is beneficial as a treatment option.


 That's true. I'm going to try it for a year either way. Have you at least been maintain what hair you have while using the Toco 8?

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Thing with hair cycles, especially if you're taking something to booster previously weaker hairs, is that its going to take time to know whether there has been any change of any kind.

Thats why they say to give fin and min at least 6-9 months.

Toco8 isn't going to be a miracle 3 months and woohoo.  I'd say the same time frame that is given to Fin and Min must be given to Toco8.

----------


## clandestine

> Thing with hair cycles, especially if you're taking something to booster previously weaker hairs, is that its going to take time to know whether there has been any change of any kind.
> 
> Thats why they say to give fin and min at least 6-9 months.
> 
> Toco8 isn't going to be a miracle 3 months and woohoo.  I'd say the same time frame that is given to Fin and Min must be given to Toco8.


 I agree. As an aside, the user DoesItWork who posted in this thread previously said he noticed a change in hair quality at the 5month mark.

----------


## Kirby_

> Yes, I'm going ALL natural.


 Ulp. This will not end well.  :Frown:

----------


## Gjm127

> Where'd you buy your Resveratrol?


 Any local GNC store has them!  :Smile:

----------


## sausage

I am not sure about the 38g little tub claims that it lasts 60days. I am at day 36 and I am 3/4 the way through, dn't think its going to last another 24 days :S.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> I am not sure about the 38g little tub claims that it lasts 60days. I am at day 36 and I am 3/4 the way through, dn't think its going to last another 24 days :S.


 good lord man, the dosage is a single scoop of the stuff.

I took it for the first time on 2/29 and had to open the second container on 4/24

----------


## Gjm127

I take half scoops. 
It says on the box not to pack... 
Plus we're taking this everyday so it seems a little too much to have a full scoop a day.

----------


## clandestine

> I take half scoops. 
> It says on the box not to pack... 
> Plus we're taking this everyday so it seems a little too much to have a full scoop a day.


 Eh, I've been full scooping it. And thanks for the reply regarding resveratrol.

----------


## sausage

I wud say that I usually have less than a scoop each time. So should not be running out so quick.

----------


## Conpecia

I've been back on the suprabio now for a couple weeks. Definitely an increase in body hair but I'm also going through a heavier shed than normal. I quit Propecia a couple months ago and fear that this explains the sudden increased shedding. I had completely forgotten the feeling of seeing all of your hair falling out by the hour. Horrible. May have to go back on Propecia after all. Add to this that Replicel did not release results today, and that Gho's technique is distrusted among the community. Running out of options and hope.

----------


## clandestine

> I've been back on the suprabio now for a couple weeks. Definitely an increase in body hair but I'm also going through a heavier shed than normal. I quit Propecia a couple months ago and fear that this explains the sudden increased shedding. I had completely forgotten the feeling of seeing all of your hair falling out by the hour. Horrible. May have to go back on Propecia after all. Add to this that Replicel did not release results today, and that Gho's technique is distrusted among the community. Running out of options and hope.


 Conpecia; good to see you posting again. I'm effectively in the same boat as you. When did you quit propecia? And more importantly, why?

Replicel has not yet released the results of their phase I trial; it would be beyond foolish to attempt any predictions at this point.

----------


## Conpecia

> Conpecia; good to see you posting again. I'm effectively in the same boat as you. When did you quit propecia? And more importantly, why?
> 
> Replicel has not yet released the results of their phase I trial; it would be beyond foolish to attempt any predictions at this point.


 I developed gynecomastia and epididymitis around the same time (February) and can only attribute it to Propecia, as that kind of stuff doesn't just randomly happen in conjunction to a healthy 26 year old man. Wasn't taking any other meds. My doctor told me to get off it in February. 

You're correct about making assumptions regarding Replicel, but at the same time what I do know as of this writing is that they haven't released the results yet when they were expected to in April, which is a negative in itself. We'll see...

----------


## Kirby_

Anyone feeling a bit too aggressive while taking this stuff (Toco-8)? It might be something else in my body or diet, but I don't take any food supplements apart from krill oil and zinc, and both of those I've been taking for ages, well before I started Toco-8. No new medications either.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Anyone feeling a bit too aggressive while taking this stuff (Toco-8)? It might be something else in my body or diet, but I don't take any food supplements apart from krill oil and zinc, and both of those I've been taking for ages, well before I started Toco-8. No new medications either.


 bit more horny but aggressive nah

of course, I started replaying Modern Warfare 3 around the same time and *that* got me aggressive.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Anyone feeling a bit too aggressive while taking this stuff (Toco-8)? It might be something else in my body or diet, but I don't take any food supplements apart from krill oil and zinc, and both of those I've been taking for ages, well before I started Toco-8. No new medications either.


 Yes, I am feeling very horny too taking this stuff.

Too bad I don't have a girlfriend.

It is HOWEVER helping in the gym, with my gains.

----------


## sausage

I neither feel aggressive, or more horny.

I doubt either of these is a side effect of taking Toco-8.

I like how it says on Primordial Performance's website to take 2 level scoops a day...BOLLOX! the label says take 1 scoop! is this a typo or are they trying to rip people off.

----------


## eqvist

To long thread for me to read. So can someone please tell me if toco8 will help me keep the hair i have left and maybe make it more thick? Im on fina and minx but still loosing hair.

----------


## 2020

> To long thread for me to read. So can someone please tell me if toco8 will help me keep the hair i have left and maybe make it more thick? Im on fina and minx but still loosing hair.


 http://www.google.com/patents/US7211...page&q&f=false

page 5

we're just hoping that it improves our hair as much as it did in that official study.... :Cool:

----------


## eqvist

So they have more number of hair but It didn&#180;t make it thick? I wonder why? 

Why do you guys think it&#180;s have been huge on training forum with many people that are super happy about toco8 and hair thickness and not loosing more hair.

And YES I know that I won't give me all my hair back and make It stay forever but does it do anything? I&#180;m on big 3, no bald spot now.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> So they have more number of hair but It didn&#180;t make it thick? I wonder why? 
> 
> Why do you guys think it&#180;s have been huge on training forum with many people that are super happy about toco8 and hair thickness and not loosing more hair.
> 
> And YES I know that I won't give me all my hair back and make It stay forever but does it do anything? I&#180;m on big 3, no bald spot now.


 Ok on my second tub - in 2 months.

Nothing to report, hair is still the same. If anything, feels healthier.

Shedding - I don't Shed much AT ALL since starting this. Been waxing my hair a lot lately, don't have hair on my hands.

During showering -10-15 strands.

Weird.

----------


## eqvist

OK slow down my shedding is a win for me! 

What do you other guys think of this?

Toco-sorb?

----------


## JJJJrS

I've been using this for 2 months and my hair feels improved. Forelock and crown is looking stronger, less shedding and itching, existing hair looks healthier. Can get away with much less concealer now. Can't say whether there is any new hair growth but I'll continue to monitor things. I've been using this in conjunction with Hair Essentials vitamins btw.

Overall, I don't expect miracles but I'd be very happy with anything that can help maintain or has any sort of positive effect.

----------


## clandestine

I think it remains that whether or not toco-8 is favourable for hair growth, it has an appreciable positive effect on one's health, and is moreso beneficial for those members who are into lifting /follow regular exercise routines.

----------


## Gjm127

I've been on this too for about 2 months.
Yes my hair seems to be in good shape, shedding has slowed down and itching as well.
I'm interested to see where this will lead. I'll keep you guys posted.

Also, I'm on Black tea + Resveratrol everyday too  :Smile: 

PS: Chest hair and libido has increased. That, I am SURE lol.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I've been on this too for about 2 months.
> Yes my hair seems to be in good shape, shedding has slowed down and itching as well.
> I'm interested to see where this will lead. I'll keep you guys posted.
> 
> Also, I'm on Black tea + Resveratrol everyday too 
> 
> PS: Chest hair and libido has increased. That, I am SURE lol.


 Toco 8 has beta sitosterol in it , I wonder if this has something to do with it?

----------


## Gjm127

> Toco 8 has beta sitosterol in it , I wonder if this has something to do with it?


 Keep in mind, I take half scoops everyday.

----------


## eqvist

I&#180;m confused...... Can somebody tell me what type of toco I should get???

I don&#180;t have any hair on my chest now Is I&#180;t likely that i will get much chest hair  ?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I´m confused...... Can somebody tell me what type of toco I should get???
> 
> I don´t have any hair on my chest now Is I´t likely that i will get much chest hair  ?


 Found 26 hairs on my pillow upon waking, first time in a while.

After running my hands in my hair, not hair is on them.

Guess it happens.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> When you exercise your muscles, your body responds by producing more testosterone to build those muscles.  This increase is then results in additional free testosterone that is, well, free to be bound to by 5AR and converted into DHT.  Obviously the additional test is used for everything else in order to build muscle mass - but it won't just use all the excess its not possible.  You hear about people weight lifting who take 5AR inhibiters to prevent balding, but they also take aromatase inhibiters in order to lessen the effects of rising estradiol.  So if you're taking finasteride and lifting heavy you may need to consider an A.I. as well.


 Hey I was just looking back into the thread, what exactly are 5AR inhibiters? I lift weights 4 days a week and since ive upped the weight and gained more muscle last year is when i noticed my hair start thinning in spots. 

Do you recommend taking 5AR inhibiters, plus fin, and AI's aswell? Im yet to be on anything as of now..

----------


## Davey Jones

> Hey I was just looking back into the thread, what exactly are 5AR inhibiters? I lift weights 4 days a week and since ive upped the weight and gained more muscle last year is when i noticed my hair start thinning in spots. 
> 
> Do you recommend taking 5AR inhibiters, plus fin, and AI's aswell? Im yet to be on anything as of now..


 Fin IS a 5AR inhibitor. As far as AIs go, they will definitely help with lifting, but keep in mind, you might not exactly be able to get them legally. 

Doesn't at all mean you can't get them though.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> Fin IS a 5AR inhibitor. As far as AIs go, they will definitely help with lifting, but keep in mind, you might not exactly be able to get them legally. 
> 
> Doesn't at all mean you can't get them though.


 I see. What do AIs do in terms of helping with lifting though? I thought they would just help prevent further hair loss...?

----------


## Davey Jones

> I see. What do AIs do in terms of helping with lifting though? I thought they would just help prevent further hair loss...?


 Put simply, AIs prevent free test from becoming estrogen. So outside of the possibility that the extra testosterone from Fin preventing conversion to DHT is left to convert to estrogen, AIs have nothing to do with hairloss.

If you are considering taking AIs, you should look into steroid related forums. Check sections related to Post Cycle Therapy (PCT), as AIs are typically used to recover from cycles of steroids. But they can certainly be used alone with positive results.

----------


## Davey Jones

And I just realized that this is the Toco-8 thread...opps, off topic.

On topic: does anyone else make sure to take their dose with a fat? Pretty sure Vit-E is fat soluble, so it probably helps a lot with absorbtion. I do mine with a spoon full of olive oil. Gross as all f*ck at first, but you get used to it.

Anyone else have an opinion on increasing absorption, with fat or otherwise?

----------


## mpb47

Any good recommended sources for toco-8 ???

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Hey I was just looking back into the thread, what exactly are 5AR inhibiters? I lift weights 4 days a week and since ive upped the weight and gained more muscle last year is when i noticed my hair start thinning in spots. 
> 
> Do you recommend taking 5AR inhibiters, plus fin, and AI's aswell? Im yet to be on anything as of now..


 Unlikely weight training caused you to lose hair.

I remember losing my most hair during a 2 year period where I did not lift weights.

My brother also have the same pattern as me; he does not lift weights.

----------


## eqvist

> Found 26 hairs on my pillow upon waking, first time in a while.
> 
> After running my hands in my hair, not hair is on them.
> 
> Guess it happens.


 
I don´t really know what you mean by that? Can you explain more ?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I don´t really know what you mean by that? Can you explain more ?


 Basically when I woke up I counted the hair on my pillow, it was that man.

Baring in MIND, I normally do not find this many on the pillow since taking toco 8 - it is a one off.

----------


## eqvist

Sorry for being a retard but I still don&#180;t get what you trying to say. Has It stop working for you? or why do you think that u have more hairs on your pillow now all of a sudden ?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Sorry for being a retard but I still don´t get what you trying to say. Has It stop working for you? or why do you think that u have more hairs on your pillow now all of a sudden ?


 TBH I think I am maintaining.

Hair is quite thick.

----------


## eqvist

Whats TBH?   So you really think toco-8 is made you thicker hair?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Whats TBH?   So you really think toco-8 is made you thicker hair?


 'To be honest'

Always had thick hair, just recession.

Since taking toco-8 hair feels healthier.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Update:

Found no hair on my pillow today.

----------


## Conpecia

Anyone else taking suprabio and getting a lot more body hair? Nothing on the hairline yet and I don't think there ever will be but maybe the existing hairs will thicken. All I know is that my facial and body hair are growing out of control.

----------


## sausage

2 months on toco-8 still no signs of increased body hair or beard growth or improvement in hair.

----------


## Conpecia

I'm wondering why all of you guys are taking toco 8? I could have sworn that I read a really promising study linked to this site involving tocomin suprabio. I've been taking 60mg twice/day and have seen a significant increase in body hair. I can only hope something is happening up top but it's only been a couple months so I'll have to wait until the end of the summer to know if it works.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I'm wondering why all of you guys are taking toco 8? I could have sworn that I read a really promising study linked to this site involving tocomin suprabio. I've been taking 60mg twice/day and have seen a significant increase in body hair. I can only hope something is happening up top but it's only been a couple months so I'll have to wait until the end of the summer to know if it works.


 Yep not shedding much at all.

----------


## gutted

> I'm wondering why all of you guys are taking toco 8? I could have sworn that I read a really promising study linked to this site involving tocomin suprabio. I've been taking 60mg twice/day and have seen a significant increase in body hair. I can only hope something is happening up top but it's only been a couple months so I'll have to wait until the end of the summer to know if it works.


 guys keep an eye out on your hairline to see if you notice any small hairs pop up, the increase in body hair and increase in sex drive signifies a boost in testosterone.

----------


## sausage

> I'm wondering why all of you guys are taking toco 8? I could have sworn that I read a really promising study linked to this site involving tocomin suprabio. I've been taking 60mg twice/day and have seen a significant increase in body hair. I can only hope something is happening up top but it's only been a couple months so I'll have to wait until the end of the summer to know if it works.


 Cos I don't want to look like a Gorilla.

----------


## Davey Jones

> I'm wondering why all of you guys are taking toco 8? I could have sworn that I read a really promising study linked to this site involving tocomin suprabio. I've been taking 60mg twice/day and have seen a significant increase in body hair. I can only hope something is happening up top but it's only been a couple months so I'll have to wait until the end of the summer to know if it works.


 What company makes that? I'm looking at Amazon here, and there seems to be a couple. Which did the study use? Which do you use? I wouldn't mind a thicker beard anyway. Looks good with the bald head.

----------


## Conpecia

> Cos I don't want to look like a Gorilla.


 Fair enough lol, but I'll look like Chewbacca if it means keeping my hair until the advanced treatments arrive.

----------


## Conpecia

> What company makes that? I'm looking at Amazon here, and there seems to be a couple. Which did the study use? Which do you use? I wouldn't mind a thicker beard anyway. Looks good with the bald head.


 Hey Davey, the company I'm using is called Nutraceutical Sciences Institute (NSI). Got it off Amazon for like 25 US dollars. The "Vitacost" version. If you get it do not be alarmed that the bottle looks differently than the pictured bottle on Amazon. It's the same stuff. I'm pretty sure the study used the same blend. If I remember correctly the company that engineers it is called Carotech, but I don't think they sell it directly.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

So has TRX3 been any good for you guys?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Happy to report that I am not shedding since taking toco. I am on my second tub, so been taking toco for 2 and a half months.

I have today bought some nizarol and now using it in conjunction with toco as an additional measure. Only found 1-2 strands of hair on my hand.

Will use Niz once a week.

----------


## Davey Jones

> Happy to report that I am not shedding since taking toco. I am on my second tub, so been taking toco for 2 and a half months.
> 
> I have today bought some nizarol and now using it in conjunction with toco as an additional measure. Only found 1-2 strands of hair on my hand.
> 
> Will use Niz once a week.


 PS, I use Niz once every other day and have never experienced any problems.  It seems to control the oil on my head.  I like a good shaved head, but I've never been a fan of the shiny look.  I'm into a more matte finish for my dome.

But the point is, you can try to use it more often if you want, and if you experience redness, back off.  Everyone is different.  I've heard of people using it as much as once a day, which I can't do.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> PS, I use Niz once every other day and have never experienced any problems.  It seems to control the oil on my head.  I like a good shaved head, but I've never been a fan of the shiny look.  I'm into a more matte finish for my dome.
> 
> But the point is, you can try to use it more often if you want, and if you experience redness, back off.  Everyone is different.  I've heard of people using it as much as once a day, which I can't do.


 I remember when I used Revita, I experienced a shed. Without really shedding if you get my drift.

It's active ingredient was keto.

So dont think its a good idea to use niz more then once a week - will alternate with my organic shampoo.

 btw how much of the niz do you put on your hands before shampooing.

----------


## Davey Jones

> I remember when I used Revita, I experienced a shed. Without really shedding if you get my drift.
> 
> It's active ingredient was keto.
> 
> So dont think its a good idea to use niz more then once a week - will alternate with my organic shampoo.
> 
>  btw how much of the niz do you put on your hands before shampooing.


 Yeah, I hope it's not hurting my hair.  Like I said, I use it for oil control at this point, which it does really well.  I did start using it to retain hair, but it's hard to tell with how short I keep it.

But from purely anecdote, I've heard people saying every other day worked best for them when using the 1%.  I typically use a little pool, about the size of a dime, in my palm.  That is after washing my hair with an organic shampoo first.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

As long as you can maintain, that is more then enough. I am hoping this regime can help me maintain until new treatments come out.

I really like toco-8.

Just so that others know I am on a weight training program as well. Have not experienced hairloss.

I take it that you are a low norwood as well?...I keep my hair longish.

----------


## sausage

I just received my 2nd pot of Toco-8 through the post.....

The consistency and taste of this one is different from the first.

The first was a dry powder which tasted like paint powder that kids use to paint with.

This second one is not as dry, it sticks together more and tastes different, it seems to have more of a taste to it, slightly sweet.

Has anyone noticed differences between theirs?

It has been hot in the UK the past few days so I think that may have caused it, I keep it in a draw but it has been very hot and stuffy in my room the past 3 days.

----------


## ovoxo

have some of you experienced initial shed or increased shed when started taking toco?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I just received my 2nd pot of Toco-8 through the post.....
> 
> The consistency and taste of this one is different from the first.
> 
> The first was a dry powder which tasted like paint powder that kids use to paint with.
> 
> This second one is not as dry, it sticks together more and tastes different, it seems to have more of a taste to it, slightly sweet.
> 
> Has anyone noticed differences between theirs?
> ...


 Put it in the fridge.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Ok its been 2 and a half months Toco 8 combined with a rigorous exercise program. Hair can be seen here:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...89&postcount=7

my hairloss is not significant, so I am looking to maintain if anything

----------


## Maradona

> Ok its been 2 and a half months Toco 8 combined with a rigorous exercise program. Hair can be seen here:
> 
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...89&postcount=7
> 
> my hairloss is not significant, so I am looking to maintain if anything


 totally stabilized dude. You should be good for 5 years at least.

Whatever you're doing , keep doing  :Embarrassment: .

Wish i could have your hair in 5 years we may have CB or histogen.

where are you buying your toco and which one?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> totally stabilized dude. You should be good for 5 years at least.
> 
> Whatever you're doing , keep doing .
> 
> Wish i could have your hair in 5 years we may have CB or histogen.
> 
> where are you buying your toco and which one?


 CB sounds like a pain in the ass to apply tbh. Histogen is what I am interested in.

I am using the following one:

http://www.physique-iq.com/view-cart...grams?vmcchk=1

Just so that you are aware, it has only been 2 months since I have been using it. For the past 2 years I have been using this shampoo:

https://www.greenpeople.co.uk/vitami...poo-200ml.aspx

Hardly ever wax my hair either

I take a multi vitamin too

My hair definently looks a lot healthier now, then back at university, where it was stringy as hell.

----------


## whyohwhy

> I just received my 2nd pot of Toco-8 through the post.....
> 
> The consistency and taste of this one is different from the first.
> 
> The first was a dry powder which tasted like paint powder that kids use to paint with.
> 
> This second one is not as dry, it sticks together more and tastes different, it seems to have more of a taste to it, slightly sweet.
> 
> Has anyone noticed differences between theirs?
> ...


 
Yes mate they have changed it and added a filler in the new toco-8, instead of being one scoop it is now 2 scoops and only lasts 30 days, they have doubled the dose and filled it with more of something else, have a look on the bottle....it really pissed me off

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Quite honestly I'm not even bothering to watch my hair while taking it.

Obsessing about it doesnt help the psyche.  Besides, what if the power of Toco8 is in stopping/slowing loss and not regrowth necessarily?  Unless you were a fast shedder, or anal about photo taking and nitting over the pictures, you aren't going to notice if its helping to maintain whats present until a long time has passed.

----------


## Conpecia

Hey guys, any updates on toco-8 or whatever else you're using? Clandestine? Any of you other people who hopped on early this year?

----------


## clandestine

> Hey guys, any updates on toco-8 or whatever else you're using? Clandestine? Any of you other people who hopped on early this year?


 I've been taking it [almost] every day for around 3 months now. Recently left my last container somewhere and have been using Tocomin SupraBio pills in its place; will order more toco-8 soon.

Nothing major to report; hair worsening over time.

----------


## Davey Jones

> Hey guys, any updates on toco-8 or whatever else you're using? Clandestine? Any of you other people who hopped on early this year?


 I'm through a container of Toco-8 and on to trying out Tocosorb for a bottle.  Nothing much to report.  Hair looks about the same when I grow it out a tad (which is a rare).  It could be worse, but it's hard to tell so short.  It is definitely not better though.

This is not necessarily a criticism of tocotrienol/tocopherol supplements, yet.  As we all know, treating hairloss is a painfully slow (and typically fruitless) endeavor.

I do feel healthier in general, but I've made a lot of changes over the last few months, so it's hard to attribute that to any one thing.  I never really felt the increased libido some people claim to have experienced, and my beard/chest hair is about the same thickness as always.  I'll come back to report if I notice any difference with this bottle of tocosorb.

PS, Clandestine, you're a post away from #666.  You should make it special.

----------


## clandestine

> PS, Clandestine, you're a post away from #666.  You should make it special.


 ! You're right!

EDIT: Oops.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

Interesting.  It appears PrimeOrdial Performance has changed their dosage for Toco 8 from one scoop per day to two.  I know that was not what it was when I bought it originally.


Toco-Sorb:


So...how is 57mg + 15mg equal to 375mg?  Even if you count all four -trienols as 57mg each, that only comes up to 225mg.

Also, saying "complex" to me would mean all encompassing.  Since Toco Sorb leaves out 3 of the -pherols, not sure it should claim that.

At least the numbers for Toco8 add up.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Update:

I have been missing doses - shedding has increased, found 15 hairs in the shower today. Usually only shed less then 5.

----------


## UK_

yeahyeahyeah - are you on any other hair loss treatments?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yeahyeahyeah - are you on any other hair loss treatments?


 Yes - keto

regenipure dr

But I only use that twice a week

----------


## UK_

> Yes - keto
> 
> regenipure dr
> 
> But I only use that twice a week


 No finasteride?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> No finasteride?


 Nope

I am trying to put that off

----------


## bananana

update - almost 4 months in.

My beard is growing super strong, my girl and my mom noticed it,
it's thicker I think, grows faster, massive beard.  :Smile: 

Hair - not so much. I wash hair every 2 or 3 days and shed around 40 hairs.
I dont se a change in density. I have some very long hairs (for the comparison),
but I really cant say I see noticeable change. The hairs SEEM a bit thicker right above where they come out of skin, but that can be optical illusion...

I'm starting folexen soon, then I REALLY hope to see some regrowth.

----------


## cleverusername

> update - almost 4 months in.
> 
> My beard is growing super strong, my girl and my mom noticed it,
> it's thicker I think, grows faster, massive beard. 
> 
> Hair - not so much. I wash hair every 2 or 3 days and shed around 40 hairs.
> I dont se a change in density. I have some very long hairs (for the comparison),
> but I really cant say I see noticeable change. The hairs SEEM a bit thicker right above where they come out of skin, but that can be optical illusion...
> 
> I'm starting folexen soon, then I REALLY hope to see some regrowth.


 Well if you haven't noticed change that means you're at least maintaining right? I'm like 2 months in and noticed a slight decrease in shedding.

----------


## bananana

> Well if you haven't noticed change that means you're at least maintaining right? I'm like 2 months in and noticed a slight decrease in shedding.


 Well, I hope so. Cant really say for sure.
I was shedding more last year for sure.

30-40 hair aint so bad for a bit longer hairs.

I can really see the beard growing like crazy though.  :Smile: 


Ps
I'm also rubbing olive oil in, at least 3 times weekly, I read it does wonders for sebum etc..

----------


## cleverusername

> Well, I hope so. Cant really say for sure.
> I was shedding more last year for sure.
> 
> 30-40 hair aint so bad for a bit longer hairs.
> 
> I can really see the beard growing like crazy though. 
> 
> 
> Ps
> I'm also rubbing olive oil in, at least 3 times weekly, I read it does wonders for sebum etc..


 I've heard good things about olive oil, I've also heard acv is good. 
Guess I should also note that I'm using rogaine foam and niz as well, but I noticed the shedding decrease after starting toco8.

----------


## Conpecia

Good to hear at least some good news about this stuff. I'm about to start Folexen as well. So excited. Bananana, are you in the US?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Update:

My hair is still the same. Don't feel like I have lost density or anything.

Not sure if I can attribute this to toco 8 or the fact that I have extremely mild hairloss.

----------


## NotBelievingIt

> Update:
> 
> My hair is still the same. Don't feel like I have lost density or anything.
> 
> Not sure if I can attribute this to toco 8 or the fact that I have extremely mild hairloss.


 I was thinking this same thing a couple weeks ago.

Was it accelerating?  Was that why I finally noticed it?  Have I slowed it down?

No friggin' clue.  I think only a long time will tell.

----------


## cleverusername

My hair still seems relatively the same. I have been able to lift more when working out though and I have felt more energetic lately.

----------


## Conpecia

Interesting. No further loss is always a good sign...

I stopped taking it several months ago, along with fin and Nizoral. I've lost a good bit on the hairline and temples (never even knew what "temple loss" meant until now, always equated that to hairline recession...). Currently closing in on NW3, and just took my first .25 mg dose of fin yesterday to see if I can take low doses without sides. Thank God no sides to report as of yet. Gonna try .25 once every 3 days and pray I can ride this out until 2015. So far away!! Will probably switch to RU if there are good results on this forum. Equol also still on my radar.

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## freddiegemini

here is what ive found on toco-8 after 3 weeks use:

- ithching has been stopped / or at least is v.minimal
- i have got a lower libido (40&#37 :Wink: 
- my dick doesn't feel as full/healthy

no idea why or what is happening. but head feels better - dick feels worse

i'm on no other treatments

maybe high doses of vit e are effecting my androgen/androgen receptor/prostate i dont know but the stuff does do something

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## gutted

> maybe high doses of vit e are effecting my androgen/androgen receptor/prostate i dont know but the stuff does do something


 yep, this is how it works, the beta sitosterol content blocks the receptor.

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## Ted

I found this about beta sitosterol:

"The effect of beta-sitosterol on sex drive is still under debate. There are some evidence that shows that taking beta-sitosterol supplementation can increase male sex drive and enhance sexual performance. However, there are also contradictory evidence that shows that beta-sitosterol supplements may cause erectile dysfunction. "

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## dex89

> here is what ive found on toco-8 after 3 weeks use:
> 
> - ithching has been stopped / or at least is v.minimal
> - i have got a lower libido (40%)
> - my dick doesn't feel as full/healthy
> 
> no idea why or what is happening. but head feels better - dick feels worse
> 
> i'm on no other treatments
> ...


 I've been taking toco-8 over a month and nothing, on my second tub, halway done. Going to switch to tocosorb because its more potent. Your penis problem is probably from other meds you take.

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## clandestine

> here is what ive found on toco-8 after 3 weeks use:
> 
> - ithching has been stopped / or at least is v.minimal
> - i have got a lower libido (40%)
> - my dick doesn't feel as full/healthy
> 
> no idea why or what is happening. but head feels better - dick feels worse


 Haaaa yes.

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## freddiegemini

> Haaaa yes.


 Not sure i get the 'haaaa yes.' Explain?

I'll come off it and see if my sex drive and dick health goes back up. Guarantee if it does my head will start to itch again!

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## gutted

> I've been taking toco-8 over a month and nothing, on my second tub, halway done. Going to switch to tocosorb because its more potent. Your penis problem is probably from other meds you take.


 you should mention that your on propecia...this potently upregulates the receptors so any decrease in sex drive from the beta sis in the toco will be offset and you will not notice any "sides"

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## freddiegemini

so toco-8 has me confused:

im reading in places that it's ingredients reduct testosterone and DHT - yet on their site it talks about increasing testosterone? 

all i know is it's culled my sex drive and my knob is not as full as it was 3 weeks ago.

its the only thing im taking atm.

waiting for RU + KB solution

in effect whats good for your hair/head is bad for your knob and libido?

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## dex89

Yes, I'm also taking propecia, well the BIG 3, emu oil, toco8, folligen cream/spray, and Spiro 5&#37;. I want to take RU and RB, but I heard from jazz that it kill his penis. So, Idk I guess it depends how your body takes it. So far,  my body is taking it pretty swell lol I never heard of Toco 8 affecting your penis, really odd.

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## NotBelievingIt

> Going to switch to tocosorb because its more potent.


 eh, where did you read that?  Toco-Sorb and Toco-8 use the exact same SupraBio Toco-Min complex.  Toco-Sorb is also not all 8 parts of the Vitamin E chain, hence Toco8's name.  It only contains the highly available form of Vitamin E.  When you see things advertised with Vitamin E they are talking about alpha-tocopherol only.

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## dex89

> eh, where did you read that?  Toco-Sorb and Toco-8 use the exact same SupraBio Toco-Min complex.  Toco-Sorb is also not all 8 parts of the Vitamin E chain, hence Toco8's name.  It only contains the highly available form of Vitamin E.  When you see things advertised with Vitamin E they are talking about alpha-tocopherol only.


 I heard it from bodybuilding.com that Toco8 its not the same has it was when it came out. I should of saved the link, the guy came up with actual facts. That tocosorb, absorbs it better and it contains other great ingredients. It may be BS but it was a lot cheaper then toco8, the other reason why I switch.

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## freddiegemini

> Yes, I'm also taking propecia, well the BIG 3, emu oil, toco8, folligen cream/spray, and Spiro 5%. I want to take RU and RB, but I heard from jazz that it kill his penis. So, Idk I guess it depends how your body takes it. So far,  my body is taking it pretty swell lol I never heard of Toco 8 affecting your penis, really odd.


 can someone input into this. i genuinely believe that toco-8 is working at reducing DHT - my head stops itching when i take it and my libido sinks. but literate suggests otherwise...

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## yeahyeahyeah

> can someone input into this. i genuinely believe that toco-8 is working at reducing DHT - my head stops itching when i take it and my libido sinks. but literate suggests otherwise...


 opposite has happened to me.

Has to be placebo for you.

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## BigThinker

> Cos I don't want to look like a Gorilla.


 Don't care how old that comment what, I just laughed out loud for like 2 min straight at this comment.

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## BigThinker

> Next week I plan to finally do something about that and will be asking some sexy lady out. The sexy ladies are missing out on my girth and if I keep taking Propecia my girth could shrink.


 Dude you just made my day. Wow.  NEVER laughed so hard.

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## Erick

So what is the conclusion of this thread? Yes or No for Toco-8?

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## clandestine

> So what is the conclusion of this thread? Yes or No for Toco-8?


 Maybe.

Also, I have no faith in anything freddiegemini says.

clandestine, out!

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## JJJJrS

It's always difficult judging these treatments because you don't know what the condition of your hair would be like without them. Even something that slows down your hair loss would be great but it's very difficult to prove something like that since nobody knows how each person will progress. 

I've been on it for 6 months now I think. My hair is holding up and maybe it's improved the health of my existing hairs. Overall though, I don't think anyone should expect any regrowth or anything like that. I think it's a vitamin supplement that's good for your overall health but I really can't say how effective it is for treating MPB.

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## NotBelievingIt

> It's always difficult judging these treatments because you don't know what the condition of your hair would be like without them. Even something that slows down your hair loss would be great but it's very difficult to prove something like that since nobody knows how each person will progress. 
> 
> I've been on it for 6 months now I think. My hair is holding up and maybe it's improved the health of my existing hairs. Overall though, I don't think anyone should expect any regrowth or anything like that. I think it's a vitamin supplement that's good for your overall health but I really can't say how effective it is for treating MPB.


 I agree.

Its almost a double edge sword.  If I stop taking it, will I start losing it faster?  Was it saving what was there?  Is it slowing the loss?  AHHHHH

You simply never know.

Additionally, if "the big 3" are supposed to be given a year, you can't expect something non-traditional to be given anything less.

October is the start of my 7th month.  I started March 1st with Toco8.

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## clandestine

> October is the start of my 7th month.  I started March 1st with Toco8.


 Nice, good consistency. I'm around 6 months myself, though there were brief periods off of it.

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## NotBelievingIt

> Nice, good consistency. I'm around 6 months myself, though there were brief periods off of it.


 Consistency of dosage is a little off though.  I was doing it one bottle every two months, then did two months of one bottle each and I'm back on two month schedule now I realized with the last purchase.

I just hate paying for stuff heh.  I'm a tight wad in many cases.

$~30/month I can *easily* afford, hell with just my meager dividend income from investments alone I can afford many things if I needed to divert my actual working income...but I currently reinvest it all immediately rather then take the cash...anyway.

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## tj0

hey guys. i've read so many conflicting reviews all over the net about toco's and i keep reading how toco's are making people hairy everywhere except their heads. isn't a sign of raised testosterone and dht increased body hair? nobody has reported any significant thickening of their scalp hair. some scattered in reviews on a bunch of different forums that are saying "they think or it might be making their hair look better and fuller" but nothing really substantial. just that 1 study from when? 07?

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## yeahyeahyeah

> hey guys. i've read so many conflicting reviews all over the net about toco's and i keep reading how toco's are making people hairy everywhere except their heads. isn't a sign of raised testosterone and dht increased body hair? nobody has reported any significant thickening of their scalp hair. some scattered in reviews on a bunch of different forums that are saying "they think or it might be making their hair look better and fuller" but nothing really substantial. just that 1 study from when? 07?


 I quit toco, don't think it did much. One of my temple points, receeded slightly despite being on this stuff.

Hard to say if it has done anything tbh aside from give me more energy at the gym.

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## NotBelievingIt

News flash:
Primordial Performance, suppliers of Toco8, have gone out of business.  I'm not going to quote anything from the note posted on their website, but suffice to say the FDA raided them, seized assets and have prevented the future sale of their AndroSeries products which accounted for 80&#37; of revenue and they are shuttering.  The operation was tight margin apparently so losing 80% of revenue shatters margins into the negatives.

Looks like I'm moving on to the Jarrow TocoSorb.

http://www.primordialperformance.com/

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## clandestine

Eh, I stopped taking it as well. Dead end, in my books. Interesting news to hear, though.

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## bananana

> Eh, I stopped taking it as well. Dead end, in my books. Interesting news to hear, though.


 Seems very odd because they had a good reputation in body building niche..

I stopped using toco after around 6 months because I havent seen a goddamn thing, no change, no lowered itch, no lowered oil, no increased growth. no nothing. 

A dead end.

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## Kirby_

^ same here, 6 months and absolutely no progress. Nothing. Shame to see another business go under though.

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## bananana

> ^ same here, 6 months and absolutely no progress. Nothing. Shame to see another business go under though.


 Yes, maybe its a foul play from bigger companies.. Getting rid of competition. I wouldn't be surprised. Unfortunately.  :Frown:

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## 2020

toco-8 is just a brand name for the patented mix of tocotrienols/tocopherols... it's still available in many places under a different name. Science looks good actually http://www.tocotrienol.org/images/st...may%202010.pdf

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## bananana

> toco-8 is just a brand name for the patented mix of tocotrienols/tocopherols... it's still available in many places under a different name. Science looks good actually http://www.tocotrienol.org/images/st...may%202010.pdf


 Yup, I read that. But even as theory is great - it doesnt work that way in practice, at least not on me.  :Frown: 

Has anyone here experienced any regrowth or any results whatsoever with toco?

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## doesitwork

> Yup, I read that. But even as theory is great - it doesnt work that way in practice, at least not on me. 
> 
> Has anyone here experienced any regrowth or any results whatsoever with toco?


 I have experienced a big difference in hair count. I also noticed my hair darkening a couple shades after about a year of use.

Mostly I buy the Healthy Origins Tocomin SupraBio from swansonvitamins.com because I've shopped like crazy and it seems to be the best buy. I was taking Jarrow Toco-Sorb, but Healthy Origins beats them for cost for what you get.

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## NotBelievingIt

> I have experienced a big difference in hair count. I also noticed my hair darkening a couple shades after about a year of use.
> 
> Mostly I buy the Healthy Origins Tocomin SupraBio from swansonvitamins.com because I've shopped like crazy and it seems to be the best buy. I was taking Jarrow Toco-Sorb, but Healthy Origins beats them for cost for what you get.


 If you actually evaluate the differences, you are getting a higher dosage of the trienols with TocoSorb.

TocoSorb has about 18% average higher of all the compounds.  It would be higher but the beta-trienol difference bring its down.

The price at swanson is $11.98 for the Healthy Origins and $13.79 for the TocoSorb - or about 15% more expensive.

So you're getting 18% higher -trienols for 15% more the cost with TocoSorb.

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## bananana

> I have experienced a big difference in hair count. I also noticed my hair darkening a couple shades after about a year of use.
> 
> Mostly I buy the Healthy Origins Tocomin SupraBio from swansonvitamins.com because I've shopped like crazy and it seems to be the best buy. I was taking Jarrow Toco-Sorb, but Healthy Origins beats them for cost for what you get.


 really? 

I don't know what to say then. After how long have you experienced any changes? After the whole year or earlier?

I used it for straight 6 months and nothing!
While on the other side I noticed massive benefits only after 1 month on msm (regarding the whole body).

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## clandestine

> really? 
> 
> I don't know what to say then. After how long have you experienced any changes? After the whole year or earlier?
> 
> I used it for straight 6 months and nothing!
> While on the other side I noticed massive benefits only after 1 month on msm (regarding the whole body).


 I wouldn't put too much faith into what he's saying, personally.

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## Kirby_

> I wouldn't put too much faith into what he's saying, personally.


 I personally don't believe that food supplements have any positive effects, whether for hairloss or anything else.

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## bananana

> I personally don't believe that food supplements have any positive effects, whether for hairloss or anything else.


 Ok, thats a bit far fetched.

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## Thinning@30

> I personally don't believe that food supplements have any positive effects, whether for hairloss or anything else.


 I'm beginning to feel the same way, at least with respect to hair loss.  We never seem to hear cases of MPB spontaneously reversing itself.  If vitamins or food supplements could regrow hair we could expect to find cases where people experienced a reversal of MPB following changes in diet or nutrition.

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## jman91

bump 10 charrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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## clandestine

> bump 10 charrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


 Why are you bumping this?

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## Quickski

ohh damn i missed this thread entirely i have been posting in the other thread a few months back and wondering how everyone else was going.

I'm still getting my tococaps from online nutrition im doing really well as are my family members.

I have pmed back and forth with a couple of your guys great to see everyone is loving these toco's i think they truly are an amazing supplement. 

Here was the info i posted before about the toco8 being watered down and the tococaps ---------------------




> I was buying the toco8 from onlinenutrition.com.au too, then i found out as well that primordial were watering it down the toco8 with tapioca flour.
> 
> I took some pics to show you how watered down it is now.
> I then bought the tococaps here: http://www.onlinenutrition.com.au/pr...oduct=TocoCaps
> 
> and took a picture and you can see when i removed the cap lid the powder color is the same as the original toco8. So i will be sticking to the tococaps from now on.
> 
> i looked at the labels and the breakdown goes as follows
> 
> ...


 









> I found this info recently about the tococaps:
> 
> Have just come across some very interesting info on TocoCaps ingredients and some studies that have been conducted.
> 
> These might interest you:
> http://www.tocotrienol.org/images/st...d%20beyond.pdf
> http://ernd.usm.my/journal/journal/T...2891-99%29.pdf

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## renordw

> Toco 8 is definitely potent, watch how fast a shaven beard grows back. You'll see it the first week you're on it
> 
> I'll say give it about 3 months for you see real hair growth on your scalp, before then you'll see little fuzz hairs growing


 Mrmanns you severely high jacked this thread. If I were the moderator, I'd ban you!

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## miclejack

extra super p force tablets is accessible as pills. Tablets ought to be gulped down as an entire with a glass of water. Try not to pulverize, bite, or break the tablet. By and large, this medicine is required 1 to 3 hours before the sexual movement and one tablet is needed one time each day.

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## miclejack

vardenafil dapoxetine is a specific serotonin reuptake inhibitor medicine that has extraordinarily been created for the remedy of untimely discharge. It expands the time it takes to remove and can work on the command over the release.

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