# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments >  CB-03-01 - When will it come to market? Will it be a stand alone treatment?

## ammin

Could the veterans answer the above questions and also the possible long term sides from the topical. The studies suggest there are none.

Incidentally, decade two on hair loss help was quoted as saying that it will be as effective as RU. That would be phenomenal. Can some of you opine on these matters?

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## ammin

Bump Bump Bump

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## Follicle Death Row

According to their presentation on their site (presume it's still there), the preliminary trials have shown it to be more effective than finasteride but we'll have to wait and see. I could be wrong but I thought it was going to be developed as a once a week application. Will be interesting to see what comes of it.

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## the_dude78

> Could the veterans answer the above questions and also the possible long term sides from the topical. The studies suggest there are none.
> 
> Incidentally, decade two on hair loss help was quoted as saying that it will be as effective as RU. That would be phenomenal. Can some of you opine on these matters?


 This has a long way to go before it hits the market, trials have only just begun.

Taken from the website:

"CB-03-01 CB-03-01, a molecule patented by Cosmo, is a steroidal ester, androgen antagonist derived from 11-deoxycortisone, which tightly mimics the profile of an ideal anti-androgen for topical use. The objective is to create a product for topical application to treat acne, male pattern baldness, and seborrhoea that does not have the side effects of products currently being taken in tablet form. An IND was filed in the US for CB-03-01 for acne. *Clinical trials are planned to start in the USA in Q2 2012*."

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## Pate

Clinical trials are already well advanced, they only just started in the US but earlier trials happened in Europe. The big downer for CB is that they are focusing on acne first, which seems bizarre since the acne market is already well supplied with viable treatments while MPB of course isn't.

The other downer is the indicative timeline keeps slipping. I think 2017 is a realistic goal for market now.

But in terms of efficacy and sides it's looking great. Should be a big improvement on Fin with no systemic sides, and only needs to be used once or max twice a week. And while trials are slow, at least Cosmo is making progress and getting deals done. They are also a profitable company in their own right so no worries about them going out of business if they meet delays.

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## Pate

It's also interesting that Cosmo STILL haven't revealed who their "US specialty pharmaceutical company" is that bought the licence for CB worldwide. We know Intrepid is conducting the US phase 2 but who coughed up $25M to Cosmo for the licencing deal? I actually wonder if it might be Allergan. They definitely fit the bill.

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## ammin

I think 2015 is a more likely release date than 2017. The molecule for acne and AA topicals is the same . So the approval for AA would not take long once the approval for acne has been obtained.

heres an email received by a hair loss help member from the Chief Medical officer at Cosmo:

http://www.*****************/interact...Cosmo-CB-03-01


"Dear Mr. xxx,

I am glad to inform you that Phase II US clinical study on acne vulgaris (NCT01631474) started as planned on June 2012, and it is proceeding regularly. 
A previous Phase II European study in facial acne vulgaris (EudraCT 2008-004335-37) was completed in July 2009, and the results have been published on British Medical Journal 2011;165:177-83.
As concerns the possible US launch, we maintain our deadline for 2015.
Kind regards


Giuseppe Celasco, MD
Chief Medical Officer

"

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## Pate

2015 for acne is still possible, 2016 for hair loss. I am giving it an extra year to 2017 because these things ALWAYS slip. Unfortunately they still need to do the trials for hair loss, they can't just piggyback off the acne. FDA approval requires dedicated hair loss trials. We may be able to use the acne stuff off-label but it might not be a high enough dose. It'll probably also be a cream instead of a lotion which will be hard to apply on longer hair.

The current plan from Cosmo seems to be to finish Phase 2 for hair loss by H1/2014. Then it'll be at least 18 months to do phase 3 and get it approved. So I won't hold my breath for 2015. Will be awesome if I'm wrong though. I am really hopeful for CB, I think it has great potential to consign fin to the scrap heap.

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## Desmond84

> 2015 for acne is still possible, 2016 for hair loss. I am giving it an extra year to 2017 because these things ALWAYS slip. Unfortunately they still need to do the trials for hair loss, they can't just piggyback off the acne. FDA approval requires dedicated hair loss trials. We may be able to use the acne stuff off-label but it might not be a high enough dose. It'll probably also be a cream instead of a lotion which will be hard to apply on longer hair.
> 
> The current plan from Cosmo seems to be to finish Phase 2 for hair loss by H1/2014. Then it'll be at least 18 months to do phase 3 and get it approved. So I won't hold my breath for 2015. Will be awesome if I'm wrong though. I am really hopeful for CB, I think it has great potential to consign fin to the scrap heap.


 Yeah, hopefully by 2016 we'll have the NEW big 3 which will be:

*Histogen + CB (Twice Weekly topical) + Nizoral (Twice weekly)*

That should keep everyone side effect free and happy (to an extent)  :Smile:

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## Pate

Yep! I'd even say the Big 4:

HSC every 6-12 weeks for 1-2 years
CB twice a week
Nizoral twice a week
Bimatoprost once a day

It mightn't be a cure but it will crap all over what we have today.

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## Person

Realistic answer: 2019

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## ammin

Pate .

Whats your NW ? 

For NW 2 like me with slight diffuse thinning 

the New big 3 , namely : 
1) HSC procedure(including the repeat visits) every 5 years 
2) CB-03-01 
3) Nizoral

would suffice.

RU is what most guys on Hairloss help have used  in conjuction with Minoxidil to restore full pre mpb density and hairline.

Most of the users on this forum myself included have an OCD to overanalyze our hairloss needs and thus your maintenance regimen seems like an overprescription.

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## Pate

If you're NW 2 with diffuse thinning and you're obsessing then I'd respectfully suggest you have a bigger problem in your head than on it. Certainly CB should just about be enough for you. Myself I'm thinning badly in my NW 6 zone, so I'll definitely need all the help I can get. I'm definitely not just obsessing over some slight thinning in my NW 2 zone.

I'm not trying to talk down the NW 2s of course. Hair loss sucks no matter what stage. Just pointing out that some of us will be struggling to regrow even if we get the new Big 4!

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## ammin

> If you're NW 2 with diffuse thinning and you're obsessing then I'd respectfully suggest you have a bigger problem in your head than on it.


 
I concur , but in my defense I am slowly coming to terms with it . I went through denial anger bargaining depression and am now accepting my MPB predisposed genes.

Its not that I dont like my hair now but the seeds of fear have been planted and those are very hard to remove....

But now on my bad hair days I just consider myself a bald man and make short shrift of the situation.

I have also gained new respect for my longtime personal hero : Neel kashkari

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## Pate

It's great that you are coming to terms with it. Just be careful on forums like this because there are a lot of toxic attitudes.

Realistically at NW 2 you are well placed to tackle your hair loss. So don't stress too much, and keep working on the acceptance. It helps a lot!

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## Dan26

I'll  be trying RU soon, hopefully CB with proper vehicle sometime next year, I'll let y'all know how the results are.

Histogen is huge, keep in mind they are using low and infrequent doses, the next trials should yeild better results.

If the PDG2 enzyme plays as a big a role in hair loss a the preliminarily research suggest, and PDG2 blocking productsbecome available, then in theory, with the use of that, histogen and an anti-androgen, we should actually see regrowth.

The science is on our side, I personally do not count on unlimited donor supply (HST is meh) within the next 5 years.

Preserve what ya got brothers.

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## BigThinker

I have some mixed feelings about all of this: so hopeful a cure is coming, but bummed that as a thinning NW2, I will probably have progressed quite a bit by the time some of these come out.

At least, if i have a son, he won't have to worry about it.

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## Kirby_

> Realistic answer: 2019


 How do you come to that conclusion?

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## Follicle Death Row

You guys are so gung ho about the potential release of all these products. I wish I could share the optimism but I don't think I can say I've seen any great progress in the last 2 years. Just don't get your hopes up too much guys.

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## ammin

I dont expect to lose any more hair after 2017 , 2016 if CB comes out earlier. I hope to restore all of  what I have lost after histogen, replicel and aderans establish themselves as side effect free treatments.

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## ammin

Once CB is in the market . Nizoral and CB are all one needs to maintain every single strand of hair on their head.

Guys need your opinions:

Right now I am on

TRX 2

Revivogen

Fluridil

Nizoral

MSM (6 gms)

Vit C (1 gm)

Can I maintain all of what I have right now for the next 5 years with the regimen above? I can't experiment with propecia

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## Pate

> Once CB is in the market . Nizoral and CB are all one needs to maintain every single strand of hair on their head.
> 
> Guys need your opinions:
> 
> Right now I am on
> 
> TRX 2
> 
> Revivogen
> ...


 Unfortunately nobody can tell if you can maintain. Are you not using minox? Maybe consider it. Propecia is the most proven, but if it's not an option maybe consider topical Spiro or RU. Just remember they both probably have some systemic absorption.

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## Pate

Potentially bad news for CB-03-01. Search google for Cosmo Pharmaceuticals and see the Bloomberg article dated Sept 25.

Basically the CEO has said they are trying to sell the company to a bigger buyer. We've seen before with Neosh what happens when a targeted pharma company buys another company and has no interest in the latter's specialist drugs. They shelve it!

Very real risk for CB IMO. The hope for me is that the partner for CB they have talked about will take the lead if Cosmo's buyer wants to kill it.

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## hellouser

> Potentially bad news for CB-03-01. Search google for Cosmo Pharmaceuticals and see the Bloomberg article dated Sept 25.
> 
> Basically the CEO has said they are trying to sell the company to a bigger buyer. We've seen before with Neosh what happens when a targeted pharma company buys another company and has no interest in the latter's specialist drugs. They shelve it!
> 
> Very real risk for CB IMO. The hope for me is that the partner for CB they have talked about will take the lead if Cosmo's buyer wants to kill it.


 More or less just speculation, we don't know what the outcome will be. Better to expect the worst and hope for the best, about the only thing we can do.

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## ammin

"Hi,





I am currently experiencing hair loss and had a few questions about Cosmo's patented compound CB-03-01 for alopecia, namely:



a) When do you expect the ointment/lotion to be available for use by the general public in the US? Will it be available earlier in Europe



b) How different is CB-03-01's formulation for alopecia from the drug's formulation for acne-vulgaris.



I will appreciate your promptitude.



Thanks,

XYZ"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

 Dear Mr. XYZ

The acne clinical phase II trials are ongoing. The formulation for alopecia is different and has been completed and phase II is scheduled to start. It is unlikely that the product will be in the market before 2016.

Sincerely yours



Dr. Chris Tanner 
Chief  Financial Officer

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## ammin

Relax guys . You speculate like crazy . Everything is on track.

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## Benzzro

I'm a noob with all this stuff so can someone explain why another person/company can't just sell this stuff online.

For example I went on Mpbtreatment and they had a 'coming soon' under their product. Why do we have to wait 5 years exactly?

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## Dan26

> I'm a noob with all this stuff so can someone explain why another person/company can't just sell this stuff online.
> 
> For example I went on Mpbtreatment and they had a 'coming soon' under their product. Why do we have to wait 5 years exactly?


 You can buy CB and things like it online (mostly all of it comes from labs in China, and if you are not buying it directly from them, the price is being marked up significantly). Problem with CB right now is a suitable vehicle. People have been experimenting with it for some time, but with no success yet. I imagine it will be available somewhere with a suitable vehicle way before it is released, but then it becomes a question of if you are willing to go through the trouble to get it, how much it costs etc,.

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## Benzzro

> You can buy CB and things like it online (mostly all of it comes from labs in China, and if you are not buying it directly from them, the price is being marked up significantly). Problem with CB right now is a suitable vehicle. People have been experimenting with it for some time, but with no success yet. I imagine it will be available somewhere with a suitable vehicle way before it is released, but then it becomes a question of if you are willing to go through the trouble to get it, how much it costs etc,.


 Thanks for the reply! Do you think mpbtreatment will have a suitable vehicle to use?

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## Dan26

> Thanks for the reply! Do you think mpbtreatment will have a suitable vehicle to use?


 I'm not sure man, I don't really follow that site, there products are out of my price range. I do believe CB  actually be injected with success. Don't quote me on it, but I've seen some talk of that being an option. With vehicles, the purpose is trying to get the molecule past the dermis (scalp skin) and too the hair root. Depending on the size of the molecule, it becomes easier/harder for the substance to penetrate the skin. CB is a bit of a tough one. If I here anything of people using it with success in the near future, I'll let you know bro!

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## Benzzro

> I'm not sure man, I don't really follow that site, there products are out of my price range. I do believe CB  actually be injected with success. Don't quote me on it, but I've seen some talk of that being an option. With vehicles, the purpose is trying to get the molecule past the dermis (scalp skin) and too the hair root. Depending on the size of the molecule, it becomes easier/harder for the substance to penetrate the skin. CB is a bit of a tough one. If I here anything of people using it with success in the near future, I'll let you know bro!


 Thanks d00de

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## Pate

> More or less just speculation, we don't know what the outcome will be. Better to expect the worst and hope for the best, about the only thing we can do.


 Yeah, of course it's just speculation... I certainly didn't mean to come across as one of the pessimists dragging everyone down.  :Wink: 

However it is something we need to keep in mind because we have seen it happen before. I hope CB will be okay and survive the sale of Cosmo.

ammin, thanks for posting that e-mail. 2016 is about what we were expecting for a date of release.

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## Kirby_

Update from Cosmo, dated 25/1/13.

http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F...25JAN13_v5.pdf

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## chewytorch

To anyone interested in CB, I am a member of a forum that is currently running a GB for it. Members have pitched in for testing and the results have been posted. Currently, it is at 165 per g, but, if we can get up to 150 gs, the price will drop to 105. Contact me on here if you are interested.

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## jjo

> To anyone interested in CB, I am a member of a forum that is currently running a GB for it. Members have pitched in for testing and the results have been posted. Currently, it is at 165 per g, but, if we can get up to 150 gs, the price will drop to 105. Contact me on here if you are interested.


 
Can you give DETAILED information on CB

What products are needed to make the mixture?

Where to buy them from?

Step by step on how to mix them?


thanks

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## Dan26

> Can you give DETAILED information on CB
> 
> What products are needed to make the mixture?
> 
> Where to buy them from?
> 
> Step by step on how to mix them?
> 
> 
> thanks


 There are multiple different vehicles people will be trying...DMI/DMSO, Olelyl Alchohol/PG (used in Cosmo trials), injecting with a saline solution, Cosmo cream, modified cosmo cream etc...

PS check your wall man

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## hellouser

> There are multiple different vehicles people will be trying...DMI/DMSO, Olelyl Alchohol/PG (used in Cosmo trials), injecting with a saline solution, Cosmo cream, modified cosmo cream etc...
> 
> PS check your wall man


 Whats the best vehicle for it? Would it still be more effective than RU if CB were to be mixed with isopropanol and PG (70%/30% ratio)?

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## Dan26

> Whats the best vehicle for it? Would it still be more effective than RU if CB were to be mixed with isopropanol and PG (70&#37;/30% ratio)?


 All we really know from Cosmo is that they have decided to trial an anhydrous vehicle at a 5% concentration. People think it may be an Olelyl Alchohol / PG solution, but we wont really be sure until Cosmo releases it. Pretty sure Isopropanal/PG would not work at all. It's a big ass molecule! I'm trying it with DMI/DMSO as they are unreal for penetration, but again, none of us will really know until we try and we see everyone results from all the different vehicles

If we get it working properly, it should outperform fin and RU. When they used it with iontopheresis I think only once or twice a week, the results were impressive.

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## jjo

> All we really know from Cosmo is that they have decided to trial an anhydrous vehicle at a 5% concentration. People think it may be an Olelyl Alchohol / PG solution, but we wont really be sure until Cosmo releases it. Pretty sure Isopropanal/PG would not work at all. It's a big ass molecule! I'm trying it with DMI/DMSO as they are unreal for penetration, but again, none of us will really know until we try and we see everyone results from all the different vehicles
> 
> If we get it working properly, it should outperform fin and RU. When they used it with iontopheresis I think only once or twice a week, the results were impressive.


 
How long have you been trying CB with DMNI/DMSO?
How's it going?

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## jjo

> All we really know from Cosmo is that they have decided to trial an anhydrous vehicle at a 5% concentration. People think it may be an Olelyl Alchohol / PG solution, but we wont really be sure until Cosmo releases it. Pretty sure Isopropanal/PG would not work at all. It's a big ass molecule! I'm trying it with DMI/DMSO as they are unreal for penetration, but again, none of us will really know until we try and we see everyone results from all the different vehicles
> 
> If we get it working properly, it should outperform fin and RU. When they used it with iontopheresis I think only once or twice a week, the results were impressive.


 
what is DMI/DMSO and how do you mix it?

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## aim4hair

About time somebody step up and plan to make a topical DHT inhibitor!!

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## Dan26

> what is DMI/DMSO and how do you mix it?


 havn't started yet, will be in the coming weeks...ill give updates!

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## baldy1990

Ok sentiments win logic eh.I should make a special thread about this but i'll just post it here.Please read and if you can answer

1)The cure thing is it new or we were always listening that we will have a cure in a few years and never have it,maybe members that are searching for a solution for years or decades can answer this

2)There is a good reason why you'll not have it,Hair transplant companies will have a great damage!So even if they find the cure ,it  will not be released in the market,think about it

3)Can you imagine that we will not have balds?if you were out of this,you would say nohh.

4)All these dates you give ,why you give them?i tend to believe that the dates estimations are garbage.And all these new treatments if they will actually work and be released,will not be safe for you at least until they will be in the market a 10 year period,so if you say 2015,think about that they will be widely used and they will be a safe treatment in 2025.So they will be still a great risk in 2015

5)I wish i could have the lost hair back but i'm just dreaming and we all do,nature has decided to make us like this,i hope we'll have the cure but we will always have the problem and our life will end up putting shit in our heads and taking risky pills to deny what nature gave us.All of us will have a bad quality of life or a miserable cause we will never be able to accept it ,on the other hand they are plenty of dudes that they just accept themselves the way they are and move on with their lives,caring about other things.In the end the winners are they ones that they have just accepted it

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## Jairus

> Yep! I'd even say the Big 4:
> 
> HSC every 6-12 weeks for 1-2 years
> CB twice a week
> Nizoral twice a week
> Bimatoprost once a day
> 
> It mightn't be a cure but it will crap all over what we have today.


 Histogen every 6 weeks??? Surely not. Would these injections be administered by a local GP or will we have to travel?

Also will Aderans not work better than CB?

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## baldesswonder

> About time somebody step up and plan to make a topical DHT inhibitor!!


 just grind up propecia/proscar tablets like I do and add to shampoo

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## Henkeh91

Does CB-03-01 promote new hair growth or just keeps the remaining ones? I guess I'm an norwood 5 or so when it's being released

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## hellouser

> Does CB-03-01 promote new hair growth or just keeps the remaining ones? I guess I'm an norwood 5 or so when it's being released


 We don't know yet, but cosmo's release stated users of CB at 1% noticed hair cant went up from about 75 hairs/cm2 to about 109 hairs/cm2, an increase of density of 50%.

Thats pretty fvcking awesome especially considering it has no sexual side effects.

We'll know more soon to come but if you really want to get on the CB gravy train you'll need to order it in raw form from Kane and make the vehicle yourself. Its not hard, but it can be a pain in the ass.

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## burtandernie

This cant come soon enough and this is what I have all my hopes pinned onto. The only proven method we have so far that stops MPB cold is stopping androgens such as in castrated men. Nothing else has ever been proven to stop MPB.
This could be the first treatment that is actually safe and most importantly actually fights both T and DHT hopefully lowering them down to near castrate levels. If it can pull this off I think MPB changes to a preventable disease if you got the money

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## hellouser

> This cant come soon enough and this is what I have all my hopes pinned onto. The only proven method we have so far that stops MPB cold is stopping androgens such as in castrated men. Nothing else has ever been proven to stop MPB.
> This could be the first treatment that is actually safe and most importantly actually fights both T and DHT hopefully lowering them down to near castrate levels. If it can pull this off I think MPB changes to a preventable disease if you got the money


 No chance in hell CB will be too expensive to purchase, its going to have to be about the same price or less than Finasteride.  Its a topical treatment, thus a gigantic pain in the ass of daily usage. I'd rather take a pill without Finasteride side effects.

But yes, CB is supposed to be 4 times as effective as finasteride. That 40&#37; increase in density from the cosmo trials would show 4X more effective is about right since Finasteride *can* give you 10-20% increased density.

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## burtandernie

Yeah hopefully its not outrageously priced. The power to stop mpb for decades topically with no sides? Sounds good to me. I heard there was a chance it could be used once or twice weekly instead of daily but that might be hoping for too much. I would just be happy to see this see the light of day. We have like 3 or 4 super good topical treatments that got scrapped like RU among others.

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## hellouser

> Yeah hopefully its not outrageously priced. The power to stop mpb for decades topically with no sides? Sounds good to me. I heard there was a chance it could be used once or twice weekly instead of daily but that might be hoping for too much. I would just be happy to see this see the light of day. We have like 3 or 4 super good topical treatments that got scrapped like RU among others.


 I think the patients from the Cosmo trials were applying it once or twice weekly and achieved those results. We still don't know what vehicle they used however it did state 'OL/PG' which should mea 'OLEYL/PROPYLENE GLYCOL' (a standard cosmetic vehicle)

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## samdee

> Clinical trials are already well advanced, they only just started in the US but earlier trials happened in Europe. The big downer for CB is that they are focusing on acne first, which seems bizarre since the acne market is already well supplied with viable treatments while MPB of course isn't.
> 
> The other downer is the indicative timeline keeps slipping. I think 2017 is a realistic goal for market now.
> 
> But in terms of efficacy and sides it's looking great. Should be a big improvement on Fin with no systemic sides, and only needs to be used once or max twice a week. And while trials are slow, at least Cosmo is making progress and getting deals done. They are also a profitable company in their own right so no worries about them going out of business if they meet delays.


 
That's GREAT. As long as they are working on stuff. Things are happening and people are getting smarter. Although in this direct respect it's a bit of a bummer, these steps have all sorts on indirect positive outcomes. 

I say, this industry is creating a great foundation for itself.

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## Troy

> All we really know from Cosmo is that they have decided to trial an anhydrous vehicle at a 5% concentration. People think it may be an Olelyl Alchohol / PG solution, but we wont really be sure until Cosmo releases it. Pretty sure Isopropanal/PG would not work at all. It's a big ass molecule! I'm trying it with DMI/DMSO as they are unreal for penetration, but again, none of us will really know until we try and we see everyone results from all the different vehicles
> 
> If we get it working properly, it should outperform fin and RU. When they used it with iontopheresis I think only once or twice a week, the results were impressive.


 There this guy Alfie that is/was getting results from ethanol (50)/ PG (50) vehicle with CB.

CB is not a big ass molecule - Molecular Weight		 402.52
http://www.chemblink.com/products/19608-29-8.htm

DMI/DMSO sounds good for dissolving the powder, but doubt you'll need a strong penetration enhancer like DMSO!

I also believe that CB should outperform RU and Fin as it takes care of androgens and inflamation...and as a bonus should not have systemic side effets!

Anyway good luck Dan :Smile:

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## Troy

> I think the patients from the Cosmo trials were applying it once or twice weekly and achieved those results. We still don't know what vehicle they used however it did state 'OL/PG' which should mea 'OLEYL/PROPYLENE GLYCOL' (a standard cosmetic vehicle)


 I think the once or twice a week study was done with iontophoresis!

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## burtandernie

What is iontophoresis? I mean is it some kind of sophisticated delivery vehicle that is too expensive for the actual real product?

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## Troy

> What is iontophoresis? I mean is it some kind of sophisticated delivery vehicle that is too expensive for the actual real product?


 


> Iontophoresis, also called electromotive drug administration (EMDA), is a technique using a small electric charge to deliver a medicine or other chemical through the skin.[1] It is basically an injection without the needle. The technical description of this process is a non-invasive method of propelling high concentrations of a charged substance, normally a medication or bioactive agent, transdermally by repulsive electromotive force using a small electrical charge applied to an iontophoretic chamber containing a similarly charged active agent and its vehicle. One or two chambers are filled with a solution containing an active ingredient and its solvent, also called the vehicle. The positively charged chamber, called the anode, will repel a positively charged chemical, whereas the negatively charged chamber, called the cathode, will repel a negatively charged chemical into the skin.


 It might be hard to use this at home :Frown:

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## burtandernie

Yeah that sounds a little out of reach, but if it works that well maybe someday we will get some kind of dumbed down version of this for home use.
Hopefully they can find a good topical vehicle to replace this that works almost as good, because this whole treatment and lots of others depend on a good vehicle. You would think given the amount of companies faced with topical vehicle problems there would be some good ones already studied.

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## chemhead

You know for us, iontophoresis is really not out of reach. I use an iontophoresis device I made on a daily basis (not for my hair). It wouldn't be difficult to make another device specifically to deliver CB to the scalp. I've got a question for any of you. I've been using Fin for about 4 years now and I've decided that I just don't want to tolerate the sides anymore. Fin works very well for me.. stops all loss and thickens at the proper dosage, but I have no libido, it's difficult for me to build muscle without it quickly wasting away (it's A LOT of work), I'm cognitively just "not there". I don't really dream anymore.. don't remember the last dream I had. I usually just sleep and that's it.. always tired. I've also cycled on and off Fin multiple times and relieved all my sides, so I'm not worried about any so-called "post-fin" symptoms. Anyway, I've ordered my first batch of RU a few days ago. Do any of you have any experiences with using ONLY RU, having dropped fin or dut because of sides? I'd like to know if anyone had equivalent or better results with RU, minus the sides of fin/dut. Obviously, I'll have to try for myself to truly know, but it would be nice to hear others' experiences. If RU works for me, I will start synthesizing it myself (I have my own lab + equipment). For now, though, I'm going to determine if it works. I'd also like to synthesize CB, but that will be down the road and it's a lot more involved than RU, due to it's steroidal structure. Any thoughts appreciated.

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## burtandernie

This cant come soon enough because I am happy to keep my hair, but I really dont want to touch propecia.

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## chemhead

burtandernie, I wouldn't discourage you from trying finasteride. There are some people that don't experience sides and if it works.. even better. I honestly envy the people that get good results from fin with no sides. Dosage on fin is a little weird for me.. I've discovered that too little obviously doesn't help my hair enough, but that too much also doesn't. I have a very small window where the dosage is optimal. Beyond it, scalp gets itchy, my hair gets thinner, dry, and starts falling out.. skin gets red/irritated. Beneath it, hair is more oily, thinner, and scalp gets itchy. The negative non-hair related sides increase dose-dependently... unfortunately. It would be nice to have a small window for those to go away too :/.

I pulverize my fin and use a pharmaceutical balance to measure out my dose every day in order to keep myself in that "window". I really hope RU works for me without sides, though. I've got a lot to be optimistic about because it seems to work well for a lot of people. I just know if it does work, a huge burden will be lifted for me. Fin has a hug effect on my overall energy and it makes it really difficult to work out... or really do anything. I'm amazed that I manage to gain anything. If RU were to work for me, I would honestly feel like I was cheating life. Feeling like shit has been kind of the norm since I've been on fin. It's incredibly refreshing when I take a break from it.. I feel alive... I actually get hard looking at girls lol... can't wait to replace this shit.

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## whitegold

Chemhead,

I am in the exact same situation as you. I recently came off of Fin after about 8 years of usage and have ordered some RU, hoping that with some Keto shampoo can help me maintain what hair the Fin helped me keep. I finally decided to come off the Fin because of not only the loss of libido, but I think it has actually shrank my package. I am a personal trainer and I too have had a hard time putting on or keeping any muscle mass while on the Fin. Hopefully the RU or maybe this CB will give us the same results as Fin, just without the horrible sides.

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## Cookie

Does CB-03-01 cream penetrate through the skin? If so, does it alter hormone and cause side effects?

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## chemhead

@Whitegold

Not to discourage you, but my experience with RU has not been positive. I stopped fin for a month completely to test RU on it's own and did not experience anything positive or negative.. basically nothing happened except that my hair thinned and since I returned to fin, I went through a shed (which is now just about over). That doesn't mean that RU is ineffective.. for me or anyone. I think my problem was delivery. I'm sure there are some people that absorb RU through the skin very effectively. I noticed often that after my hair was dry, I would feel the powder in my hair when running my hands through it. 

Topical delivery is a complete turn-off for me because it simply doesn't work very well. I'm not done with RU, however. I'm currently designing and manufacturing a needle-less injection device to deliver pharmaceuticals and steroids like estradiol intradermally in 1000's of microliter-sized doses throughout the scalp. By doing this, I'll be able to decrease the amount of active pharmaceutical to have a positive effect and I'll also know what works and what doesn't without having to worry about whether or not it's actually getting to the target. It may end up taking up some of my time since I would have to self-administer so many doses, but if it works well enough, it may be a way for me to get away from oral fin and that alone would make it worth it. I also like the idea of injecting estradiol locally because I think it is the primary reason why fin stops my hair loss and significantly thickens my hair.

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## chemhead

@Cookie

None of us really have any idea how effective a CB cream would penetrate the skin. We do know, so far, that relatively little or no side effects occur from the use of CB and that it IS very effective.

I'm not sure about the fate of CB. One of the reasons why initial testing of CB was so effective is because they Cosmo used iontophoresis to drive CB into the scalp, which is very effective. I have used and still use an iontophoresis device and they definitely work.

I'm actually interested in why CB is so effective. Its structure is very similar to testosterone. The only difference is that at C17, testosterone has an alpha proton and a beta hydroxyl group, and CB has an alpha propionate and a beta carboxylic acid (ethanoic/acetic acid) group. CB more that likely gets reduced on C5 by 5AR to a DHT analogue that is ineffective because of the two above-mentioned substituents. Those two substituents hopefully increase the binding affinity of CB for the androgen receptor. Obviously with the lack of 5AR, CB is still an effective testosterone antagonist since it (hopefully) binds the AR with higher affinity.

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## dan1938

> @Cookie
> 
> None of us really have any idea how effective a CB cream would penetrate the skin. We do know, so far, that relatively little or no side effects occur from the use of CB and that it IS very effective.
> 
> I'm not sure about the fate of CB. One of the reasons why initial testing of CB was so effective is because they Cosmo used iontophoresis to drive CB into the scalp, which is very effective. I have used and still use an iontophoresis device and they definitely work.
> 
> I'm actually interested in why CB is so effective. Its structure is very similar to testosterone. The only difference is that at C17, testosterone has an alpha proton and a beta hydroxyl group, and CB has an alpha propionate and a beta carboxylic acid (ethanoic/acetic acid) group. CB more that likely gets reduced on C5 by 5AR to a DHT analogue that is ineffective because of the two above-mentioned substituents. Those two substituents hopefully increase the binding affinity of CB for the androgen receptor. Obviously with the lack of 5AR, CB is still an effective testosterone antagonist since it (hopefully) binds the AR with higher affinity.


 any updates on progress. I just started RU myself. By the way do you know if the RU concentrations are calculated by mass or volume. I did the calculations and by volume seem to make sense. However, with a density of 1.39, it seems like you need 75 mg/(ml of solvent) to achieve 5% conc, whereas in most posts people mention 50 mg /ml would give that concentration.

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## chemhead

I've long since quit RU (I stopped about a month after starting). I found that it had no effect at all. Based on what I now know, I'm not surprised it doesn't work. I actually happen to think that most pharmaceutical R&D companies are approaching hair loss from the wrong angle. In fact, I very strongly believe that hair loss is not in any way caused by androgenic hormones. Otherwise, I would have started losing hair when I turned 13~15 years. I do believe that DHT doesn't belong in the skin. It absolutely causes inflammation and redness, but I don't believe it causes hair loss. 

Here's what I think is really happening: what is more significant is the high expression of 5 alpha reductase in skin and intrafollicularly. This is not because it causes the production of TOO MUCH DHT, it's because it acts as a "substrate sink" (testosterone being the primary metabolized substrate in skin and hair). So, in actuality, hair loss is not caused by an excess of androgenic hormone, but rather a lack of the other metabolites of testosterone and androstenedione (testosterone and androstenedione are in equilibrium with one another). Those metabolites lacking are estradiol and estrone from the aromatization of testosterone and androstenedione, respectively. Testosterone itself may even be responsible for the growth of hair.. not necessarily just its metabolites. 

There is also a very specific reason why finasteride (or any 5 alpha reductase inhibitor) will only work temporarily... and only if it is dosed properly. Finasteride works because the inhibition of 5AR systemically causes a dramatic increase in the level of serum testosterone. This is why some people get gynecomastia. The elevated level of testosterone in all tissues where 5AR is expressed leaves more substrate to be aromatized. So, those with high expression of aromatase in breast tissue end up with gynecomastia. For the hair, though, this elevated level of testosterone in the skin and hair follicles is fantastic. Unfortunately, these levels do not remain elevated enough to have positive effects on hair for much more than a week. This is due to HPTA (hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis) feedback which signals the down-regulation of LH (luteinizing hormone) in response to high testosterone/estrogens. When you stop producing LH , testicular production and release of testosterone stops, resulting in the type of crash that anabolic steroid users can experience when coming off a cycle.

So, the only way that finasteride can really be effective (only temporarily) is by taking it at a very high dose. If you think of enzymes as being valves that regulate the flow of steroid/substrate from one steroid to another, the goal is to "shut off" the 5AR "valve" as quickly as possible (in a manner of speaking) so that you have higher levels of testosterone before your body realizes what's going on and shuts down LH. Once LH hormone shuts down, you crash, your junk shrinks, and you feel generally terrible.

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## dan1938

that is an interesting point,but Why does castration effectively halt hairloss. Almost all androgen synthesis is in the testicles, if testosterone and its metabolites were necessary for hair growth then, castration should have the reverse effect. From what I understand you are basically saying aromatization is good for hair but bad for the rest of your body? So then would topicals with aromatase or estrogen and its metabolites be a viable treatment? And could you please clarify what you mean by "substrate sink"?

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## chemhead

What I mean by "substrate sink" (assuming testosterone is our primary substrate which can be metabolized by 5AR, aromatase, etc.) is: think in terms of a heat sink for electronic components (processor, microprocessor, etc.). Just as a heat sinks draw away heat, a substrate sink is drawing away substrate. The presence of excessive 5AR draws away testosterone from other enzyme metabolism.

In the most basic sense, hair loss is a direct result of a lack of cellular energy. DHT and estrone have opposing effects on hair growth. DHT signals apoptosis by decreasing adenylate cyclase activity. Estrone does the exact opposite. So, it certainly does help to have less DHT, but having very low DHT doesn't guarantee that you still won't lose hair.

With regard to castration.. that's a complex issue. Castration will result in cessation of testicular testosterone (obviously), but that doesn't mean the body no longer produces testosterone. The adrenal gland is also able to effectively produce testosterone. While I'm sure castration could certainly cause cessation of hair loss, it wouldn't give someone, who would otherwise go completely bald, a full head of hair. Castration only helps in one regard with hair loss. The decrease in steroid overall means less DHT, but it also means less steroid... meaning the steroids you NEED to maintain normal cellular energy production are in deficit. The age of the castrate will also definitely be a factor in cessation of hair loss if expression of 5AR is related to pubertal increase in androgens. I don't think I've ever heard of a middle-aged castrate that grew back all hair in balding areas ... but then again, it's not something I've looked into.

I would definitely say that aromatization of testosterone/androstenedione is good for skin and hair and definitely, in excess, bad for every other tissue in the body. Estrogens are really growth hormones. An excess of estrogens unregulated by progesterone is exactly what can cause cancer.

One thing I know for certain is that testosterone absolutely DOES NOT cause hair loss. If this were true, you would see more bald 15 year olds.. a lot more. Hair loss starts when your body begins producing less testosterone. You can still have hair and high levels of DHT if you also have very high levels of testosterone, such as when in puberty. This is because you still have enough testosterone which can be metabolized to estradiol/estrone. In my own case, I had very red, itchy, and irritated skin (due to DHT) when I was a teenager. I also had very oily skin (due both to DHT and testosterone). As I grew closer toward the onset of hair loss, my skin became less oily and hair started falling out.

At present, I'm able to increase testosterone/androstenedione to supraphysiological levels, while simultaneously binding 5AR (with finasteride), and cause my skin to become much oilier and brigher and my hair extraordinarily thick.. thicker than when I was a teen. This is not a very safe thing to do, however, because the very high level of testosterone/androstenedione causes a significant increase in estrogens in other tissues.

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## whatsgoingon

> What I mean by "substrate sink" (assuming testosterone is our primary substrate which can be metabolized by 5AR, aromatase, etc.) is: think in terms of a heat sink for electronic components (processor, microprocessor, etc.). Just as a heat sinks draw away heat, a substrate sink is drawing away substrate. The presence of excessive 5AR draws away testosterone from other enzyme metabolism.
> 
> In the most basic sense, hair loss is a direct result of a lack of cellular energy. DHT and estrone have opposing effects on hair growth. DHT signals apoptosis by decreasing adenylate cyclase activity. Estrone does the exact opposite. So, it certainly does help to have less DHT, but having very low DHT doesn't guarantee that you still won't lose hair.
> 
> With regard to castration.. that's a complex issue. Castration will result in cessation of testicular testosterone (obviously), but that doesn't mean the body no longer produces testosterone. The adrenal gland is also able to effectively produce testosterone. While I'm sure castration could certainly cause cessation of hair loss, it wouldn't give someone, who would otherwise go completely bald, a full head of hair. Castration only helps in one regard with hair loss. The decrease in steroid overall means less DHT, but it also means less steroid... meaning the steroids you NEED to maintain normal cellular energy production are in deficit. The age of the castrate will also definitely be a factor in cessation of hair loss if expression of 5AR is related to pubertal increase in androgens. I don't think I've ever heard of a middle-aged castrate that grew back all hair in balding areas ... but then again, it's not something I've looked into.
> 
> I would definitely say that aromatization of testosterone/androstenedione is good for skin and hair and definitely, in excess, bad for every other tissue in the body. Estrogens are really growth hormones. An excess of estrogens unregulated by progesterone is exactly what can cause cancer.
> 
> One thing I know for certain is that testosterone absolutely DOES NOT cause hair loss. If this were true, you would see more bald 15 year olds.. a lot more. Hair loss starts when your body begins producing less testosterone. You can still have hair and high levels of DHT if you also have very high levels of testosterone, such as when in puberty. This is because you still have enough testosterone which can be metabolized to estradiol/estrone. In my own case, I had very red, itchy, and irritated skin (due to DHT) when I was a teenager. I also had very oily skin (due both to DHT and testosterone). As I grew closer toward the onset of hair loss, my skin became less oily and hair started falling out.
> ...


 Either I just learned a whole lot about a plausible theory or I'm too tired to read through it clearly. But seriously, really cool read on your 4 posts. Interesting subjects were mentioned and explained well. Nice concentration of thoughts. 

You mentioned you stopped your hairloss? Or was that hypothetical? And if you did, how? (might of skimmed through it ) Curious is all.

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## burtandernie

The reason though 15 year olds dont go bald is because something happens with how your hair reacts to the androgens you have as you get older and have genes,hair susceptible to it. Whether its something with receptor changes or probably something much more complex and that big piece is not figured out yet. Androgens do cause MPB and if you believe DHT binds to receptors then its hard to imagine T and other male androgens do not also behave the same way just being much weaker androgens.
Castration stopping MPB is probably the only evidence we have at all so far showing MPB can be completely prevented. Key word being castration prevents MPB if timed properly. It does not regrow hair or possibly even save hair already under the process.

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## dan1938

nicely explained. I will try to pull up studies that might support and refute your theory, but how are you able to increase your testosterone/androstenedione levels? And how would you be able to sustain it knowing that the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis will try to get you back to homeostasis?
what kind of effect would supraphysiological levels have on your kidneys and liver?

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## whatsgoingon

> Castration stopping MPB is probably the only evidence we have at all so far showing MPB can be completely prevented. Key word being castration prevents MPB if timed properly. It does not regrow hair or possibly even save hair already under the process.


 Not sure there are enough studies to back up post-puberty castration doing nothing. 

But I guess you could take a census from testicular cancer patients and transgender who have their parts removed.

But I do believe it would stop the loss just from a rule of thumb. Regrow back to NW1, doubtful. But I think even tracy mentioned that her transsexual friends could only get back to a NW2. But that's anecdotal. 

Wasn't taking a jab at you, just adding a bit of input.

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## inbrugge

> What I mean by "substrate sink" (assuming testosterone is our primary substrate which can be metabolized by 5AR, aromatase, etc.) is: think in terms of a heat sink for electronic components (processor, microprocessor, etc.). Just as a heat sinks draw away heat, a substrate sink is drawing away substrate. The presence of excessive 5AR draws away testosterone from other enzyme metabolism.
> 
> In the most basic sense, hair loss is a direct result of a lack of cellular energy. DHT and estrone have opposing effects on hair growth. DHT signals apoptosis by decreasing adenylate cyclase activity. Estrone does the exact opposite. So, it certainly does help to have less DHT, but having very low DHT doesn't guarantee that you still won't lose hair.
> 
> With regard to castration.. that's a complex issue. Castration will result in cessation of testicular testosterone (obviously), but that doesn't mean the body no longer produces testosterone. The adrenal gland is also able to effectively produce testosterone. While I'm sure castration could certainly cause cessation of hair loss, it wouldn't give someone, who would otherwise go completely bald, a full head of hair. Castration only helps in one regard with hair loss. The decrease in steroid overall means less DHT, but it also means less steroid... meaning the steroids you NEED to maintain normal cellular energy production are in deficit. The age of the castrate will also definitely be a factor in cessation of hair loss if expression of 5AR is related to pubertal increase in androgens. I don't think I've ever heard of a middle-aged castrate that grew back all hair in balding areas ... but then again, it's not something I've looked into.
> 
> I would definitely say that aromatization of testosterone/androstenedione is good for skin and hair and definitely, in excess, bad for every other tissue in the body. Estrogens are really growth hormones. An excess of estrogens unregulated by progesterone is exactly what can cause cancer.
> 
> One thing I know for certain is that testosterone absolutely DOES NOT cause hair loss. If this were true, you would see more bald 15 year olds.. a lot more. Hair loss starts when your body begins producing less testosterone. You can still have hair and high levels of DHT if you also have very high levels of testosterone, such as when in puberty. This is because you still have enough testosterone which can be metabolized to estradiol/estrone. In my own case, I had very red, itchy, and irritated skin (due to DHT) when I was a teenager. I also had very oily skin (due both to DHT and testosterone). As I grew closer toward the onset of hair loss, my skin became less oily and hair started falling out.
> ...


 I just wanted to say great posts chemhead. I tried to soak it all in and it's a bit overwhelming, but you have some real interesting theories there. 

However, you didn't mention about the CB treatmen in respect to your hypotheses. You mentioned Fin would be succesful only temporary, but I'm interested to see your thoughts about the different treatments, mainly CB, beyond just Fin.

Thanks.

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## akai

I won't believe any of these drugs or procedures with a lot of promise are going to come out until they come out. It's pretty depressing when you see decade old posts of people who bought into the hype of a medication or procedure that was ineffective or never made it to market.

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## dan1938

> I won't believe any of these drugs or procedures with a lot of promise are going to come out until they come out. It's pretty depressing when you see decade old posts of people who bought into the hype of a medication or procedure that was ineffective or never made it to market.


 you have to understand that a treatment may not be commercialized for reasons other than its efficacy. one reason that comes to mind is profitability. If a company doesn't believe that a product will make them any money, why would they spend millions patenting it?so the only choice we have until they come out with something is to take matters in to our own hands. Humans were using herbs  and plants in their surroundings for millions of years for different ailments. Some were effective, some weren't. The only thing the pharmaceutical companies are doing is manipulating what is found in nature to work for us. For example, there are many naturally found oils/foods that have anti androgenic, anti-aromatase, anti-estrogenic, etc properties. They were being used well before Finasteride, Letro, nolva, etc came in to our lives.

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## burtandernie

Given the MPB treatment history I wouldnt believe too much in anything until its actually out sitting on a shelve somewhere. Way too many things can change in the huge amount of time before its all said and done. I hope CB ends up making it though because we need some safe topical way to stop androgens which are still the most sure bet we have

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