# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  follicept - what's this?

## joachim

http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...5#.VO0QdMuIXqB

never heard of it. snake oil treatment?

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## Reign

Appears to be hitting the internet today? Hope it's not snake oil, but would not be surprised if it is.

Just went to the company's website (http://www.prometheonpharma.com/home.html) - no information on follicept, but it doesn't overtly appear illegitimate.

Product's website: **************

The company also made the following post on facebook: 

"Here it is! Exciting development that will help us fund insulin patch development! http://finance.yahoo.com/news/follic...133000049.html "

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## burtandernie

yawn.. prove to me it does anything. Im not even wasting my time reading about it until they link a study showing it might be better than snake oil. Its not up to me to waste my money for 6 months to prove your crap works its their job not mine

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## Thinning@30

> yawn.. prove to me it does anything. Im not even wasting my time reading about it until they link a study showing it might be better than snake oil. Its not up to me to waste my money for 6 months to prove your crap works its their job not mine


 This.

Incidentally it's being labeled a "cosmetic" rather than a medical device or treatment. In other words, not proven to do anything.

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## sdsurfin

its weird, they say they want to launch in 2015 but then on the pharmaceutical company's website they show that it has not gone through trials.  Adenosine has been proven to be as effective as rogaine (I use it and not sure about it yet, hasn't been long enough, but at least no side effects) and also works by promoting IGF-1.  It is certainly no finasteride though.

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## sdsurfin

Just got this email from them.  It doesn't seem like snake oil at all, but time will only tell how well it works.  The good thing is he says you'd probably only have to apply it once a month or two though, because the growth factor transfers over to the next growth cycle.  seems like kind of a histogen-lite.  Hopefully something good will come of this, I could use a good minox replacement in 2015 :Smile: 

"The reason for this is simple- we learned just a week or so ago that given our ingredients and dosing, the FDA classifies us as a cosmetic/natural remedy rather than a drug. Where Rogaine and Propecia use drugs that have the side effect of hair growth, our product uses the natural hormone IGF-1, which is the compound our own bodies use to regulate hair growth. This has long been known to be the ideal way to stimulate hair growth, but until core technology came about, no one could deliver directly to hair follicles in low enough doses to be safe but still effective. Our core platform technology allows large molecules, like insulin, IGF-1, and human growth hormone across the skin in just that way. So given this FDA classification, we can get to market much quicker- kind of like how food supplements at GNC don't go through clinical trials, they just have to be registered with the FDA and proven safe under basic guidelines. I am beginning the treatment on myself very soon, and will post before and after pictures, along with a few other early test subjects, as we gear up the manufacturing and distribution. All of the ingredients are safe and used in other cosmetic and consumer products, and the IGF-1 is at a tiny dose that won't harm the body but will still regrow hair. We just got pleasantly surprised with the classification allowing us to get to market even sooner- we have already been talking to the big players about our technology. "

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## unbalding

Interesting. I hope it actually works, but these people didn't even know whether or not they were developing a drug or a cosmetic until a week ago. That doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in their ability to develop a treatment that actually works, and to get it to market. It looks like snake oil to me, but I'm open to hearing more after they have tested it further.

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## Recidive

The expression of insulin-like growth factor 1 in follicular dermal papillae correlates with therapeutic efficacy of finasteride in androgenetic alopecia.



J Am Acad Dermatol. 2003 Aug;49(2):229-33.


The expression of insulin-like growth factor 1 in follicular dermal papillae correlates with therapeutic efficacy of finasteride in androgenetic alopecia.


Tang L, Bernardo O, Bolduc C, Lui H, Madani S, Shapiro J.


Division of Dermatology, The University of British Columbia, Vancouver Hospital, Canada.


BACKGROUND: It is generally believed that dihydrotestosterone is one of the pivotal mediators of hair loss in androgenetic alopecia (AGA). Finasteride, which blocks the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, has now become an integral part of the current treatment approaches for male AGA. Several lines of evidence support the notion that dermal papilla (DP) cells represent the androgen target within the hair follicle. The specific molecular regulators modulated by androgens within hair follicles in the balding scalp are unknown. OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this study was to identify and quantify changes in expression of specific molecular hair growth regulators in DP of men with AGA treated with finasteride and correlate these findings to clinical efficacy. METHODS: Biopsy specimens were collected from 9 male patients from both the balding area and nonbalding occipital area before and after 4 months of finasteride therapy. DP were microdissected and total RNA was extracted from an equal number of DP from each biopsy specimen. The expression of various cytokines, including insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1, was determined by reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction. The signals were detected by autoradiography. All 9 patients were given finasteride for 1 year and evaluated for efficacy at month 12. Efficacy was graded on a 7-point scale on the basis of comparison with initial baseline photography. RESULTS: IGF-1 was up-regulated by finasteride treatment in 4 of 9 patients. Among the patients with increased IGF-1 expression, 3 of them showed moderate clinical improvement after 12 months of treatment and another patient remained unchanged. In contrast, 3 patients with decreased IGF-1 expression in the balding scalp showed clinical worsening after 12 months. The other 2 patients without noticeable change in IGF-1 expression showed either slight improvement or no change in their hair condition. CONCLUSION: In a small uncontrolled study of 9 patients with AGA, an increased expression of IGF-1 messenger RNA levels in the DP was associated with patient response to finasteride.

This is interesting because of the correlation being made between insulin-like growth factor 1, and the efficacy of finasteride. This may explain why there is a broad range of responses to the drug. there are many more articles about insulin resistance and hair loss on the Internet...

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## rambo007

http://www.google.com/patents/US20120245088

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## kaptainjack

I can't use finasteride and I absolutely hate minoxidil, so I'm going to give this a try once it's out.

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## Gerhard

Please refer to my previous post. You two bickering is plain moronic. We appreciate and are thankful for the studies and comments provided about IGF-1 and it's efficacy. However, no one appreciates the back and forth between you two. Got a problem? PM one another but leave it off the threads.

I'm neither skeptical or optimistic about this. I'm content to admit my knowledge is basic on this subject and as a result I will wait for efficacy showings from their company. If they come back positive that is fantastic and I'm sure many will attempt them. If not, they've already stated they don't plan to bleed anyone dry with a bs treatment. Perhaps I'm naive, but I like to believe that people aren't just douche bags 24/7. 

Both of you need to chill out and wait. If you want to discuss why you may or may not be wrong, that's ****ing fantastic. But name-calling, bickering, and whining is some shit that we should all have grown out of a while ago.

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## sdsurfin

So as evidence you talk about anecdotal evidence from another forum and a link to buy some stuff wherein the delivery system is not even specified. Then you use histogen and replicel, which have both shown evidence of possibly being much better than rogaine actually, especially in terms of long term maintenance and side effect profile. If they are both upregulating follicle IGF, then it is working positively. And How do you know the people in that forum applied it with a good delivery system or at the right dose? Then you link some studies about IGF in the blood serum , which has nothing to do with IGF expression in the follicle. Again you are just throwing pure unscientific pessimism out there. I don't even think follicept will be a huge success, but it might be, and I feel the need to call you out on casually throwing out opinions and bro science and claiming it as fact. And also treating people who are nice enough to engage with this forum like shills.

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## Swooping

> Any answer to this?


 You did understand that study correctly nave.

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## nave13579

Okay christ for people who are "highly educated" you are both bickering babies who are getting into fights that are pointless and don't matter. 

Use your "intelligence" to kindly answer my question if you can and help progress informative conversation in this forum.

Thank you.

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## Sogeking

> Please refer to my previous post. You two bickering is plain moronic. We appreciate and are thankful for the studies and comments provided about IGF-1 and it's efficacy. However, no one appreciates the back and forth between you two. Got a problem? PM one another but leave it off the threads.
> 
> I'm neither skeptical or optimistic about this. I'm content to admit my knowledge is basic on this subject and as a result I will wait for efficacy showings from their company. If they come back positive that is fantastic and I'm sure many will attempt them. If not, they've already stated they don't plan to bleed anyone dry with a bs treatment. Perhaps I'm naive, but I like to believe that people aren't just douche bags 24/7. 
> 
> Both of you need to chill out and wait. If you want to discuss why you may or may not be wrong, that's ****ing fantastic. But name-calling, bickering, and whining is some shit that we should all have grown out of a while ago.


  It won't work mate. This is the same way we lost Ziering and Gardner...

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## sdsurfin

> Any answer to this?


 Yeah the scientists at follicept have stated that free IGF in the serum is not indicative if it's action at the follicle. In other words, the cells in the follicle could be doing one thing with IGF that does not correlate to how much of it is in the blood. Everyone has IGF. It's what the hair follicle cells are telling each other to do with it that matters.

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## sdsurfin

I'm not bickering with anyone. I was told I had a low IQ and was just pointing out why polluting peoples heads with false anecdotal evidence and pessimism does no good. 

I was also reacting to swooping basically insulting the follicept rep. 

I've gotten a lot of info out of replicel for this forum and am currently trying to get a pdg2 blocker at a fair price. I know how to treat others with respect. If those of you who are bitter and pessimistic want to discourage new treatments, then at least do so in a way that is coherent. I have no desire to prove or disprove anyone's opinion, just to keep the information useful and rational.

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## Swooping

> I'm not bickering with anyone. I was told I had a low IQ and was just pointing out why polluting peoples heads with false anecdotal evidence and pessimism does no good. 
> 
> I was also reacting to swooping basically insulting the follicept rep. 
> 
> I've gotten a lot of info out of replicel for this forum and am currently trying to get a pdg2 blocker at a fair price. I know how to treat others with respect. If those of you who are bitter and pessimistic want to discourage new treatments, then at least do so in a way that is coherent. I have no desire to prove or disprove anyone's opinion, just to keep the information useful and rational.


 Rofl,  I provided all facts. You on the other hand continue to provide anecdote after anecdote. Now you are misinforming nave13579. You really have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Also you are ignorant as hell. You don't even know how IGF works, that's the fun part. Did I insult the rep? Not really I just said right in his face that this treatment isn't going to work with very hard argumentation. We'll see anyway in a few weeks who will have the last laugh baboon  :Smile: .

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## EXprettyboy

+1 if you've had enough reading through tit for tat bullshit.

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## follicept

> thanks for taking the time to come to this forum and post. I think it's a good investment of your time.


 No problem! Thanks! I agree.

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## follicept

> Rofl,  I provided all facts. You on the other hand continue to provide anecdote after anecdote. Now you are misinforming nave13579. You really have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Also you are ignorant as hell. You don't even know how IGF works, that's the fun part. Did I insult the rep? Not really I just said right in his face that this treatment isn't going to work with very hard argumentation. We'll see anyway in a few weeks who will have the last laugh baboon .


 You also said you'd like to break my nose. So I gave you my address, and you edited your post. To answer nave's question here is Dr. Hsu's answer:

Transdermal as we use the term just means getting it into the dermis to reach the dermal papilla of the hair follicle. It's not easy to get across the stratum corneum and the epidermal cellular layers, both of which are rate-limiting for drug delivery. I don't know if nano formulations or nano-rolling actually address the issue. And I certainly don't know of any FDA-approved indication for the use of IGF-1 injections to treat pattern baldness. Even if there were, you would need a pretty high serum level to overcome the effects of high testosterone. Presumably, normal IGF-1 levels are not sufficient or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. Our goal is to deliver IGF-1 to the DP (but not systemically) at levels that block testosterone pathway.

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## Swooping

> You also said you'd like to break my nose. So I gave you my address, and you edited your post. To answer nave's question here is Dr. Hsu's answer:
> 
> Transdermal as we use the term just means getting it into the dermis to reach the dermal papilla of the hair follicle. It's not easy to get across the stratum corneum and the epidermal cellular layers, both of which are rate-limiting for drug delivery. I don't know if nano formulations or nano-rolling actually address the issue. And I certainly don't know of any FDA-approved indication for the use of IGF-1 injections to treat pattern baldness. Even if there were, you would need a pretty high serum level to overcome the effects of high testosterone. Presumably, normal IGF-1 levels are not sufficient or else we wouldn't be having this discussion. Our goal is to deliver IGF-1 to the DP (but not systemically) at levels that block testosterone pathway.


 1. http://www.worldhairresearch.com/?p=64




> RESULTS: Results were obtained from logistic regression models, adjusting simultaneously for all the measured hormones and age. Men with higher levels of testosterone were more likely to have vertex baldness (odds ratio [OR] = 2.5, 95% confidence interval [CI: 0.9 to 7.8] per 194 ng/dL increment of testosterone). *In addition, for each 59 ng/mL increase in IGF-1*, *the odds of having vertex baldness doubled* (95% CI [1.0 to 4.6]). Those who were found to have higher circulating levels of SHBG were less likely to have dense hair on their chest (OR = 0.4, 95% CI [0.1 to 0.9] per 24 nmol/L increment in SHBG]).


 2. http://escholarship.org/uc/item/2v79r893




> In summary, regulation of human hair growth by androgen is probably mediated by IGF-1 in the dermal papilla. *In male scalp, high levels of IGF-1 may increase the androgen receptor activity and dihydrotestosterone levels and these result in an increased propensity for baldness.*


 3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10827403




> CONCLUSION: Older men with vertex balding have lower circulating levels of IGFBP-3 and *higher levels of IGF-1* when controlling for IGFBP-3 level


 These 3 studies state otherwise and provide evidence that IGF-1 is a bad factor. IGF-1 can only reach the dermal papilla through the blood and isn't synthesized within the hair follicle. Furthermore IGF-1 is evenly distributed within the blood. What does your research team have to say about these studies? I'm genuinely interested to the answer.

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## follicept

> 1. http://www.worldhairresearch.com/?p=64
> 
> 
> 
> 2. http://escholarship.org/uc/item/2v79r893
> 
> 
> 
> 3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10827403
> ...


 I sent them on to check out and will provide an answer when I have one. I won't purport to have their education or experience in this field, so I won't mislead you.

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## Swooping

> I sent them on to check out and will provide an answer when I have one. I won't purport to have their education or experience in this field, so I won't mislead you.


 I understand, thanks.

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## Gerhard

> I sent them on to check out and will provide an answer when I have one. I won't purport to have their education or experience in this field, so I won't mislead you.


 Hey, I know you're getting hit with a lot of skepticism so I'd like to take this time to say thank you on my and the hair loss community's behalf. We respect your work and wish you all the best in it coming to fruition both on a professional and personal level. I also appreciate your composure through the whole process, I know some here can come across badly, but it's mainly due to overzealousness or frustration. Thanks again and again good luck to you and your team! Thank you for responding to our inquiries.

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## Swooping

@Follicept, another question if you could please ask them.

It has been pointed out in several studies that specifically some phenotypes suffer from extensive aggressive androgenetic alopecia (AGE <30  NW3+) and show low SHBG values.

*Now SHBG is decreased by IGF-1.* This also means that the free androgen index will get higher. Meaning that more DHT can bind to the androgen receptor in the hair follicle if you raise IGF-1 in blood plasma. Also decreasing SHBG leads to less estradiol, a compound known to be hair protective. 

This strengthens the 3 previous studies to expect that higher IGF-1 levels are actually bad. Why do they think otherwise is my question? Thanks, appreciate it. 

1. 



> AGA is the most prevalent form of alopecia in men having polygenic origin. Total testosterone levels were within normal levels did not change in cases and controls.* Some of the cases had low levels of SHBG than the reference range and level were decreased significantly when compared with the controls* (P = 0.007). Frequently lower levels of SHBG were attributed to the higher frequency of the polymorphism of D327N of the SHBG gene in these men.[14] While further studies have reported androgen receptor gene present on X chromosome as well as mutations in P2RY5 display variable expressivity was a factor underlying both hypotrichosis and alopecia.[15] Although testosterone levels were normal, FAI was significantly higher in cases than controls (P = 0.0006). Free testosterone accelerates gradual transformation large terminal scalp follicles to tiny villous ones causing premature AGA in genetically predisposed person.[16] This shows that FAI is the best marker of a person's androgen status as it can bind to tissue receptors.


 2. 


> Hormonal Profile in men with premature androgenic alopecia
> Androgenetic alopecia especially that with premature onset can be a cause of serious psychic trauma. As far as the treatment with antiandrogens, inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase or hair transplantation represents a heavy economic burden for the patient, we tried to exclude other hormonal causes or to find a criterion for the apt candidates for the treatment in 15 young men with premature androgenetic alopecia.* Hormonal analysis discovered a significantly lower plasma level of sexual binding globulin (SHBG)* and FSH and nearly significantly higher concentration of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone.


 3. 


> Sex hormone-binding globulin and saliva testosterone levels in men with androgenetic alopecia.
> 
> Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), plasma testosterone and saliva testosterone were measured in sixty-four men with androgenetic alopecia and in forty males within the same age range without alopecia. *There was a significant reduction in SHBG levels in bald men, compared with controls.* Plasma testosterone levels were not raised in bald men, but their salivary testosterone levels were significantly higher than in controls.


 4. 


> Abstract Sex hormone-binding globulin and risk of hyperglycemia in patients with androgenetic alopecia. 
> BACKGROUND: Low circulating levels of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) are a strong predictor of the risk of type 2 diabetes. Androgenetic alopecia (AGA) has been related to an increase in cardiovascular risk, but the mechanism of this association has not been elucidated. *AGA can be associated with low levels of SHBG and insulin resistance*, which could be related to hyperglycemia and type 2 diabetes.

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## NeedHairASAP

> @Follicept, another question if you could please ask them.
> 
> It has been pointed out in several studies that specifically some phenotypes suffer from extensive aggressive androgenetic alopecia (AGE <30  NW3+) and show low SHBG values.


 He said he's going to let us know how it goes, so I'm not sure what the point of arguing about it with vaguely (not entirely direct) studies. If there is anyone on the forum who knows that slight differences in methodologies can have drastic changes on the conclusions you can draw from anyone study.

All that said, if historical trends persist, then, swooping, you will be right. Fortunately, they're testing it and seem to be open to communication. So lets see what happens.

I'm curious with the Q&A between the two of you, but you're super incendiary and rude. Come on man.

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## follicept

> Hey, I know you're getting hit with a lot of skepticism so I'd like to take this time to say thank you on my and the hair loss community's behalf. We respect your work and wish you all the best in it coming to fruition both on a professional and personal level. I also appreciate your composure through the whole process, I know some here can come across badly, but it's mainly due to overzealousness or frustration. Thanks again and again good luck to you and your team! Thank you for responding to our inquiries.


 Of course, I am happy to! We learned a lot during our NoPricks campaign from people living with diabetes. It is a tough, lifelong, miserable thing and there is no good, easy, solution. So sometimes that frustration and anger and skepticism about us gets directed to us, and I completely understand it. It's well-founded. With that said, you guys as a whole, as with the diabetes community, are overwhelmingly supportive and hopeful and I can't thank you enough. It keeps us going. Times have been real tough here at Prometheon before, and it was only remembering who we are serving that got us out of bed and up to work in order to take that day's punches. We'll keep on keepin on, and appreciate the support and communication. We are a really small team, so if I go dark on you guys, know that it is a good sign of being busy getting the product to market, not of flaking out and giving up. Like I said, we will publish any negative results and will not take any money until we are sure. 

Devon

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## follicept

> @Follicept, another question if you could please ask them.
> 
> It has been pointed out in several studies that specifically some phenotypes suffer from extensive aggressive androgenetic alopecia (AGE <30  NW3+) and show low SHBG values.
> 
> *Now SHBG is decreased by IGF-1.* This also means that the free androgen index will get higher. Meaning that more DHT can bind to the androgen receptor in the hair follicle if you raise IGF-1 in blood plasma. Also decreasing SHBG leads to less estradiol, a compound known to be hair protective. 
> 
> This strengthens the 3 previous studies to expect that higher IGF-1 levels are actually bad. Why do they think otherwise is my question? Thanks, appreciate it. 
> 
> 1. 
> ...


 On it.

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## sdsurfin

"DHT inhibits IGF-1 at the dermal papillae.[26] Extracellular histones inhibit hair shaft elongation and promote regression of hair follicles by decreasing IGF and alkaline phosphatase in transgenic mice.[27] Silencing P-cadherin, a hair follicle protein at adherens junctions, decreases IGF-1, and increases TGF beta 2, although neutralizing TGF decreased catagenesis caused by loss of cadherin, suggesting additional molecular targets for therapy. P-cadherin mutants have short, sparse hair.[28]"

The answer might be that even if there is plenty of IGF in the blood, dht is silencing it at the follicle. Perhaps delivering enough IGF directly to the follicle overrides this silencing action. There might be a lot of IGF in balding guys' blood precisely BECAUSE it is being suppressed in all the follicles. There's mysterious evidence for both IGF having a positive role for hair, and then a record of more IGF in balding scalp.  there's surely a correlation, but as the kythera doc wrote to me yesterday, this does not imply causality. Just because bald guys have more IGF does not mean the IGF is causing the balding.

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## Justinian

> Again I'll say it one more time to you. People have tried IGF-1 several times including other growth factors. They have injected them directly into the scalp. They have applied it in combination with microneedling. They have also used these nano formulations. Many people did.Not only IGF-1 but also compounds like FGF-2, FGF-7, KGF, VEGF, WNT's, NOGGIN.  If it was a success you would be using it right now, but perhaps that is something you can't grasp baboon.


 Some PRP formulas include VEGF, IGF-1, and FGF (Greco at least), and PRP seems to have decent re-growth potential. It's not amazing, but it definitely works (~15% increase in hair counts) http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/760709/.

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## hairy

Seems like Dr. Hsu also designed this:

http://www.amazon.com/Camellix-ReviT.../dp/B00ESZBNJA

So does green tea give back hair or was that a wrong research direction?

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## Velvetmonkey

Hey Follicept!

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer the questions in this thread. Please dont let the odd morons scare you of. There are lots and lots of us out there that really appreciate what you are doing. So often we are forced to speculate about developments. You guys being approacheable about your research is awesome. Keep up the good work!

And to those people that think this is a snake oil. Well, if that is the case I have to say they have really earned their money. Not many snake oils salesmen would dedicate their career to doing research, hire a top scientist for a front, develop a band aid as a cover story, use the university of Florida as a cover for the entire operation and film a youtube video with their own face just to scam a few baldies.

Im not a scientist and I dont know if Follicept will work or not. But I do have half a brain and to anybode else with half a brain it is obvious that these guys believe in what they are doing.

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## Swooping

> Im not a scientist and I dont know if Follicept will work or not. But I do have half a brain and to anybode else with half a brain it is obvious that these guys believe in what they are doing.


 Yes. So does Dr. Kenji Okajima indeed; http://www.jhgc.com.sg/theory/igf-1/index.html (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21839661)





That's the study that sdsurfin showed. I'm convinced it will work actually now. DHT was never the culprit, low IGF-1 levels are the culprit in the hair follicle. Btw, they sell products too which increase IGF-1.  Look at the pictures they provide with the regrowth, quite awesome actually. I'll order it next week. Seems like a cure imo (at least preventative). Hopefully the products by follicept will prove to be even better! Btw what's awesome too guys is that IGF-1 is highly anabolic, so its good for dem muscles. Dr. Kenji Okajima is a god actually it will also increase sex hormones, meaning increased libido. Can't wait to try this. To hell with only dermal delivery, both dermal and systemic  delivery seems even better.

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## sdsurfin

Haha

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## shaft

So DHT has been Blamed all these Yrs & had Nothing to do with it?
Rolling Eyes.

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## sdsurfin

Ps I never linked that study. That was off of follicept's website. Either way I'm pretty sure were all ****ed until someone figures out a genetic fix or a way to implant whole follicles. All this stuff is just preternaturally flawed bandaid.

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## shaft

I agree 

This only FDA Drugs is just a band aid and maybe at best buys us all time.
As far I'm concerned these are 2 piss poor Medications and well past there sell by date & getting very old in this day & age.
Millions of people are just pissed of how slow this crap is and today 2015 we are no closer than we was 30 yrs ago IMHO.
sad but true.

I think the only way forward would be to clone human Hair follicles.
They  can clone a sheep, why cant it be done with a poxy hair?

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## nave13579

> Yes. So does Dr. Kenji Okajima indeed; http://www.jhgc.com.sg/theory/igf-1/index.html (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21839661)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the study that sdsurfin showed. I'm convinced it will work actually now. DHT was never the culprit, low IGF-1 levels are the culprit in the hair follicle. Btw, they sell products too which increase IGF-1.  Look at the pictures they provide with the regrowth, quite awesome actually. I'll order it next week. Seems like a cure imo (at least preventative). Hopefully the products by follicept will prove to be even better! Btw what's awesome too guys is that IGF-1 is highly anabolic, so its good for dem muscles. Dr. Kenji Okajima is a god actually it will also increase sex hormones, meaning increased libido. Can't wait to try this. To hell with only dermal delivery, both dermal and systemic  delivery seems even better.


 Wait what just happened?... Haha

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## zeos

> IGF-1 is nothing "new" at all, has been used for ages, and dermal delivery to the hair follicle isn't a problem, has been tried by many people too including directly to the hair follicle, simple as that.


 http://mesotherapyworldwide.com/imag...ofessional.pdf  (page 4,6,7)

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## unbalding

> Wait what just happened?... Haha


 lol I can't figure out if he's being sarcastic or if he seriously just did a 180.

It seems Dr. Okajima isn't exactly the most reputable researcher. Though he does have an impressive body of work nonetheless.

Kenji Okajima retraction count grows to five



> In all, it looks as Nagoya found evidence of misconduct in 19 papers. The Journal of Neuroscience retraction appeared in 2011, and another showed up in the Journal of Immunology last year. Now there are three more: One in Translational Research and two in Blood.

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## NeedHairASAP

> lol I can't figure out if he's being sarcastic or if he seriously just did a 180.


 same

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## Gerhard

> I agree 
> 
> This only FDA Drugs is just a band aid and maybe at best buys us all time.
> As far I'm concerned these are 2 piss poor Medications and well past there sell by date & getting very old in this day & age.
> Millions of people are just pissed of how slow this crap is and today 2015 we are no closer than we was 30 yrs ago IMHO.
> sad but true.
> 
> I think the only way forward would be to clone human Hair follicles.
> They  can clone a sheep, why cant it be done with a poxy hair?


 Thankfully now with the patents up, more companies seem interested in trying to get in on this multi-billion dollar market. If they were to develop a better treatment (even if not a fullblown cure) they'd pull in those balding men who are hesitant to go on treatments and make even more money. There's good incentive here now that people are becoming more aware of propecia's shortcomings. I hope cloning comes soon, brother.



> lol I can't figure out if he's being sarcastic or if he seriously just did a 180.
> 
> It seems Dr. Okajima isn't exactly the most reputable researcher. Though he does have an impressive body of work nonetheless.
> 
> Kenji Okajima retraction count grows to five


 Time to hope there's something to it and that he's not completely full of shit.

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## Rog

One interesting possibility that arises from the production of IGF-1 from stimulation of the sensory nerves in the scalp through the sensation of pain is that the technique of wounding or other forms of perturbation of the scalp may be causing hair regrowth due to the resulting IGF-1 stimulation as much as by any upregulation of WNT. 

In other words, those attributing hair regrowth from dermarolling the scalp may be getting it because of the resulting increase in IGF-1 signalling and not (or less) due to upregulation of WNT. As they say, correlation does not prove causation, so its just an idea to be tested and better understood. Its also worth noting that WNT upregulation is often associated with scarring, so its not without its problems viz hair regrowth.

----------


## Swooping

No ,guys Dr. Okajima is legit. The guy has a scholarship of a god (magna cum laude) compared to someone like Cotsarelis. Follicept seems damn legit to if I look at the credentials of the poeple involved. I was too short sighted. 

I'm definately going to buy the products, I can't wait for follicept to come in with possibly better working IGF-1 products. Btw Theradome lately is getting some damn good results. Now using blue light instead of red actually stimulates IGF-1! Maybe we should concentrate on that too, to maximize our IGF-1 levels.  Really looking awesome this.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> No ,guys Dr. Okajima is legit. The guy has a scholarship of a god (magna cum laude) compared to someone like Cotsarelis. Follicept seems damn legit to if I look at the credentials of the poeple involved. I was too short sighted. 
> 
> I'm definately going to buy the products, I can't wait for follicept to come in with possibly better working IGF-1 products. Btw Theradome lately is getting some damn good results. Now using blue light instead of red actually stimulates IGF-1! Maybe we should concentrate on that too, to maximize our IGF-1 levels.  Really looking awesome this.


 I also reviewed the team and it's a major factor in why I'm interested.

Of course, lets see what happens.

----------


## follicept

> On it.


 All of these studies are retrospective case-control association studies. They are looking at associations from a database of information that includes whether individuals have AGA and whether they have IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 levels. Association studies are not evidence of causation. Only prospective studies specifically designed to answer the question address causation. This is a basic principle in epidemiology. Retrospective studies are convenient to do and often provide the impetus to do prospective studies to provide evidence for causation. They are also subject to many kinds of bias, which is one of the reasons why they are not considered as definitive evidence for causation.

A good example to illustrate this principle is an outstanding retrospective association study that controls extensively for bias, which clearly demonstrates that hypoglycemia in persons with diabetes on insulin therapy is "associated" with death. Even in this landmark study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, which is the basis for recommendations by every diabetes association in every country to avoid hypoglycemia, the authors were very careful to point out that it may not be hypoglycemia itself that causes death. It may be a surrogate marker for death. One way to think about this is that "A" (hypoglycemia) may be associated with but not directly be the cause of "C" (death). "A" may correlate with the actual cause of death ('B'), which is not yet known.

Thus, low IGFBP-3 and high free IGF-1 levels in blood ("A") may be found to be associated with AGA ("C"), but this is not the same as saying high IGF-1 causes AGA, since they may correlate with the actual mediator of AGA ("B"), which may not yet be clearly established.

The concentration of IGF-1 in Follicept is about the same or lower than normal free IGF-1 levels based on age (children have the highest levels because they need it for normal growth) and about the same target blood level for IGF-1 hormone replacement in children with congenital IGF-1 deficiency. The high levels in children, teens, and young adults are physiologic and are not associated with hair loss. Follicept contains a physiologic concentration of IGF-1 that it delivers across the skin to the dermal papilla where IGF-1 receptors are expressed.

----------


## follicept

> "DHT inhibits IGF-1 at the dermal papillae.[26] Extracellular histones inhibit hair shaft elongation and promote regression of hair follicles by decreasing IGF and alkaline phosphatase in transgenic mice.[27] Silencing P-cadherin, a hair follicle protein at adherens junctions, decreases IGF-1, and increases TGF beta 2, although neutralizing TGF decreased catagenesis caused by loss of cadherin, suggesting additional molecular targets for therapy. P-cadherin mutants have short, sparse hair.[28]"
> 
> The answer might be that even if there is plenty of IGF in the blood, dht is silencing it at the follicle. Perhaps delivering enough IGF directly to the follicle overrides this silencing action. There might be a lot of IGF in balding guys' blood precisely BECAUSE it is being suppressed in all the follicles. There's mysterious evidence for both IGF having a positive role for hair, and then a record of more IGF in balding scalp.  there's surely a correlation, but as the kythera doc wrote to me yesterday, this does not imply causality. Just because bald guys have more IGF does not mean the IGF is causing the balding.


 Agrees with what Dr. Hsu just told me, see my reply to Swooping.

----------


## follicept

> Seems like Dr. Hsu also designed this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Camellix-ReviT.../dp/B00ESZBNJA
> 
> So does green tea give back hair or was that a wrong research direction?


 Different Dr. Stephen Hsu, haha! Hadn't heard of him before- no association.

----------


## follicept

> Hey Follicept!
> 
> Thank you so much for taking the time to answer the questions in this thread. Please dont let the odd morons scare you of. There are lots and lots of us out there that really appreciate what you are doing. So often we are forced to speculate about developments. You guys being approacheable about your research is awesome. Keep up the good work!
> 
> And to those people that think this is a snake oil. Well, if that is the case I have to say they have really earned their money. Not many snake oils salesmen would dedicate their career to doing research, hire a top scientist for a front, develop a band aid as a cover story, use the university of Florida as a cover for the entire operation and film a youtube video with their own face just to scam a few baldies.
> 
> Im not a scientist and I dont know if Follicept will work or not. But I do have half a brain and to anybode else with half a brain it is obvious that these guys believe in what they are doing.


 Thanks for that! We know it's not the majority, and doesn't deter us. Ultimately, the results will determine it, and we won't sell anything until and unless we have good results, and we will publish negative results if not. Hang in there.

----------


## follicept

> Yes. So does Dr. Kenji Okajima indeed; http://www.jhgc.com.sg/theory/igf-1/index.html (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21839661)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the study that sdsurfin showed. I'm convinced it will work actually now. DHT was never the culprit, low IGF-1 levels are the culprit in the hair follicle. Btw, they sell products too which increase IGF-1.  Look at the pictures they provide with the regrowth, quite awesome actually. I'll order it next week. Seems like a cure imo (at least preventative). Hopefully the products by follicept will prove to be even better! Btw what's awesome too guys is that IGF-1 is highly anabolic, so its good for dem muscles. Dr. Kenji Okajima is a god actually it will also increase sex hormones, meaning increased libido. Can't wait to try this. To hell with only dermal delivery, both dermal and systemic  delivery seems even better.


 Glad to finally have your support! You have come a long way from physical threats to supporting our products in theory! Yes, that very information is linked on our site to support our science. Glad you finally took the time.

----------


## follicept

> No ,guys Dr. Okajima is legit. The guy has a scholarship of a god (magna cum laude) compared to someone like Cotsarelis. Follicept seems damn legit to if I look at the credentials of the poeple involved. I was too short sighted. 
> 
> I'm definately going to buy the products, I can't wait for follicept to come in with possibly better working IGF-1 products. Btw Theradome lately is getting some damn good results. Now using blue light instead of red actually stimulates IGF-1! Maybe we should concentrate on that too, to maximize our IGF-1 levels.  Really looking awesome this.


 I might throw the credentials of one Dr. Stephen Hsu into the ring. While new to the hair growth arena, he's no schlub. www.prometheonpharma.com/steve.hsu.html

----------


## Reign

> Glad to finally have your support! You have come a long way from physical threats to supporting our products in theory! Yes, that very information is linked on our site to support our science. Glad you finally took the time.


 I believe he was being sarcastic.

----------


## follicept

> I believe he was being sarcastic.


 Nope, seems legit: 

Quote Originally Posted by Swooping  View Post
No ,guys Dr. Okajima is legit. The guy has a scholarship of a god (magna cum laude) compared to someone like Cotsarelis. Follicept seems damn legit to if I look at the credentials of the poeple involved. *I was too short sighted.* 

I'm definately going to buy the products, I can't wait for follicept to come in with possibly better working IGF-1 products. Btw Theradome lately is getting some damn good results. Now using blue light instead of red actually stimulates IGF-1! Maybe we should concentrate on that too, to maximize our IGF-1 levels. Really looking awesome this.

----------


## Atum

Explains why people who don't have the sensitive androgen receptors report massive hair grow when taking creatine, since it increases IGF-1. 

I on the other hand had massive hair loss, since it also increases DHT.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Nope, seems legit: 
> 
> Quote Originally Posted by Swooping  View Post
> No ,guys Dr. Okajima is legit. The guy has a scholarship of a god (magna cum laude) compared to someone like Cotsarelis. Follicept seems damn legit to if I look at the credentials of the poeple involved. *I was too short sighted.* 
> 
> I'm definately going to buy the products, I can't wait for follicept to come in with possibly better working IGF-1 products. Btw Theradome lately is getting some damn good results. Now using blue light instead of red actually stimulates IGF-1! Maybe we should concentrate on that too, to maximize our IGF-1 levels. Really looking awesome this.


 I think he actually is being sarcastic. the guy has gone from being a doubty thomas to a straight up troll.  He's spewing sarcasm on another topic too.  It's great to have valid criticism and skepticism based on hard facts or even opinions(even I'm not sold on this approach yet), but man, first he hates on this idea based on a misunderstanding of causation and on anecdotal evidence, insults the very kind and helpful representative of follicept as if he were a dime a dozen shill, and then switches up to obnoxious sarcasm on every comment. I really have no care to get into personal shit here, but he is particularly unpalatable.  Moderator should nix that guy, it's horrid people like that who scare serious scientists away from here.

----------


## Trouse5858

> Explains why people who don't have the sensitive androgen receptors report massive hair grow when taking creatine, since it increases IGF-1. 
> 
> I on the other hand had massive hair loss, since it also increases DHT.


 Wait...creatine? Really? First I've ever heard of that.  Would you mind elaborating a bit?

----------


## Atum

> Wait...creatine? Really? First I've ever heard of that.  Would you mind elaborating a bit?


 


> Objective: This study investigated resting concentrations of selected androgens after 3 weeks of creatine supplementation in male rugby players. It was hypothesized that the ratio of dihydrotestosterone (DHT, a biologically more active androgen) to testosterone (T) would change with creatine supplementation.
> 
> Design: Double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study with a 6-week washout period.
> 
> Setting: Rugby Institute in South Africa.
> 
> Participants: College-aged rugby players (n = 20) volunteered for the study, which took place during the competitive season.
> 
> Interventions: Subjects loaded with creatine (25 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose) or placebo (50 g/day glucose) for 7 days followed by 14 days of maintenance (5 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose or 30 g/day glucose placebo).
> ...


 I had a massive DHT itch during my workout. At the time I didn't know it was DHT until i noticed my hair loss shortly after that period.

----------


## unbalding

> No ,guys Dr. Okajima is legit. The guy has a scholarship of a god (magna cum laude) compared to someone like Cotsarelis. Follicept seems damn legit to if I look at the credentials of the poeple involved. I was too short sighted. 
> 
> I'm definately going to buy the products, I can't wait for follicept to come in with possibly better working IGF-1 products. Btw Theradome lately is getting some damn good results. Now using blue light instead of red actually stimulates IGF-1! Maybe we should concentrate on that too, to maximize our IGF-1 levels.  Really looking awesome this.


 Ok, now I _know_ he's trolling. Thanks for the laugh, Swoop. It was a good plot twist.

----------


## Swooping

> I think he actually is being sarcastic. the guy has gone from being a doubty thomas to a straight up troll.  He's spewing sarcasm on another topic too.  It's great to have valid criticism and skepticism based on hard facts or even opinions(even I'm not sold on this approach yet), but man, first he hates on this idea based on a misunderstanding of causation and on anecdotal evidence, insults the very kind and helpful representative of follicept as if he were a dime a dozen shill, and then switches up to obnoxious sarcasm on every comment. I really have no care to get into personal shit here, but he is particularly unpalatable.  Moderator should nix that guy, it's horrid people like that who scare serious scientists away from here.


 Not really. I think IGF-1 is going to be huge as I said. I think you are the problem here , several people have had problems with you which is strange. I think moderators should really review your actions. It's obviously not only me who has a problem with you. But again you have a lowish IQ and it's always good to have a monkey the forum. Just for entertaining values! You do seem to like me at least!

Sorry for going offtopic follicept. Btw what is also good from IGF-1 is that it is a potent activator of the AKT pathway. That is basically a stimulator of cell growth and cell proliferation. This can only have impact on signalling pathways which attribute positively on hair growth. IGF-1 has broader actions, also on downstream signalling. I jumped to fast to a conclusion, without reviewing the broad action of IGF-1. Sorry for that.

----------


## Swooping

I also reviewed the hypothesis of follicept and it is seems legit.




> Pathway diagram. *IGF-1 or insulin binding to IGF1R (IGF-1 Receptor) results in activation of signaling pathways which in turn* *causes Akt or another PIP3-dependent kinase to translocate to the nucleus and phosphorylate Foxo1 at three sites* Ser-253, Ser-316, Thr-24).  The phosphorylation prevents Foxo1 from binding to its substrates normally, attenuating its usual deactivation of the AR (androgen receptor). Ligands binding to AR stimulates expression of IGF1R, creating a positive feedback loop.15


 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17202144


Basically this means that it can antagonize the androgen receptor. FOXO1 is a downstream pathway that is  way more interesting actually. IGF-1 has an impact on this one as you can read.




> The most important factor in AGA is the genetic link.  Unfortunately, we cannot change our genetics.
> 
> It seems that the second most important factor in AGA is the forkhead box (foxo) family.  It regulates pretty much everything in AGA.
> 
> 1) How androgens interact
> 2) Interacts will various factos p16,p27,p53,akt, mapk, ampk, and much more
> 3) Regulates cell cycle, quiescence, senescence, etc
> 4) Involved with estrogen receptor
> 5) Involved with SIRT1, autophagy, mitochondria, antioxidant formation, apoptosis, stat3, almost everything if not everything involved with AGA
> ...


 That credit doesn't go to me btw but a other guy who posted this a while ago. He knows much though. Also the FOX family  is implicated with PPAR which is involved in adipogenesis. Adipogenesis is implicated in hair follicle cycling obviously in the dermal macro environment and a must for anagen onset. The factors like MAPK, P53, P16, P27 are extremely important. Lately many researchers have shown the importance of these factors in AGA. They seem to be extremely important. IGF-1 can have a broad action as you see.

Minoxidil for instance has impact on these factors too; 




> We demonstrated here that minoxidil plus ATRA additively increased the phosphorylation of Erk in both dermal papilla cells and NHK, compared with minoxidil alone. The role of the Erk signaling pathway in cell growth has been well established (20). The diverse involvement of retinoic acid has been demonstrated in the regulation of developmental processes and the modulation of differentiation in various cellular models by the MAPK pathways (21, 22). The MAPK pathway is also involved in maintaining cell survival by modulating apoptotic molecules including Bcl-2 family (23). *The PI3 kinase/ Akt cascade plays a crucial role in cell survival and the prevention of apoptosis (24, 25).* The crosstalk between Erk and PI3K/Akt pathway has been demonstrated to prolong cell survival (26). *Our results thus suggest that the activation of Akt, an anti-apoptotic molecule, by minoxidil plus ATRA may prolong survival of DPCs and epithelial counterpart.*


 


> In summary, our data suggest that the enhanced hair growth by minoxidil plus ATRA in our short-term organ culture may be explained through prolonged survival of epithelial cells and dermal papilla cells, which mediate signals for follicular epithelium. Minoxidil plus ATRA more increased the phosphorylation of Erk and* Akt* early 1 hr after the treatment than minoxidil alone. The change of Bcl-2/Bax ratio, *P53 and P21* were also detected later 24 hr after the treatments. *Minoxidil plus ATRA could work together to prolong the survival of cultured  dermal papilla cells and epithelial cells and to protect them from apoptosis by dual mechanisms with different kinetics: 1)* the activation of Erk- and* Akt-dependent pathways* and 2) the increase of the ratio of Bcl-2/Bax and the suppression of the expression of *P53 and its downstream target P21.*

----------


## sdsurfin

Is this swooping guy for real? I don't think anyone on here has a problem with me but you dude.  First you call me a baboon for calling you out on generalized and misinformed criticism, then you get all sarcastic, and now you seem to have completely turned around and actually support folicept's line of thinking, all the while claiming that I have a low IQ. No one can follow you anymore.  Maybe you're just a crazy person? Either way, can you please stop with the broscience overload on the forum? I have my ideas too, but I'm not polluting the thread with them. let the professionals do their work.

----------


## Swooping

> Is this swooping guy for real? I don't think anyone on here has a problem with me but you dude.  First you call me a baboon for calling you out on generalized and misinformed criticism, then you get all sarcastic, and now you seem to have completely turned around and actually support folicept's line of thinking, all the while claiming that I have a low IQ. No one can follow you anymore.  Maybe you're just a crazy person? Either way, can you please stop with the broscience overload on the forum? I have my ideas too, but I'm not polluting the thread with them. let the professionals do their work.


 No I think your on meth. You have been in bad mouth fights several times here on the forum with other members. Do I need to link you to them? More people think you are wicked in your mind.  Yes I was to straightforward with my conclusions about this treatment. After reading more, I'm convinced this is actually very exciting. Btw please don't ever tell your ideas. All that comes out of your mouth is bullshit. Now I have reported you for you constant harassing me, from the start of this topic monkey. Go get your bananas please if you can't stay on topic.

----------


## EXprettyboy

Swooping, you call him a baboon because he was open to the possibility of follicepts potential,
then you realize there may very well be potential in their product,
yet you still maintain that he's a baboon?
....and then you report him for harassment?...and proceed to call him a monkey, again.

it is quite apparent that your raw IQ may be quite high, but dude you are emotionally immature.
Man up and apologise.

----------


## Swooping

> Swooping, you call him a baboon because he was open to the possibility of follicepts potential,
> then you realize there may very well be potential in their product,
> yet you still maintain that he's a baboon?
> ....and then you report him for harassment?...and proceed to call him a monkey, again.
> 
> it is quite apparent that your raw IQ may be quite high, but dude you are emotionally immature.
> Man up and apologise.


 Yeah I was emotionally immature. This sdsurfin guy literally knows nothing though and keeps telling bullshit in every post he makes. That's why I got emotionally immature. Just review his posts. The guy has a IQ of a peanut. Guess I can't really stand dumb people like him. Will ignore him now though, thanks. Hope we can stay on topic to the IGF-1 story now cause that is what counts!

----------


## unbalding

Adding capsaicin cream and 100mg soy isoflavone to my regimen to increase CGRP. Why not, I'm already going with the kitchen sink approach, so what's two more things.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Yeah I was emotionally immature. This sdsurfin guy literally knows nothing though and keeps telling bullshit in every post he makes. That's why I got emotionally immature. Just review his posts. The guy has a IQ of a peanut. Guess I can't really stand dumb people like him. Will ignore him now though, thanks. Hope we can stay on topic to the IGF-1 story now cause that is what counts!


 Jesus. Follicept only came on here because I was in communication with them privately. You only heard the last explanation from replicel because they contacted me. There is currently a possible source of affordable pgd2 blockers because I've done my networking. I'll be sure to keep all these things off this forum from now on, this place is too much of a joke. And swooping I would send you my test scores and credentials just to shut you up if it wasn't for the fact that I really don't want you knowing who I am. Suffice it to say I have a much higher than average IQ (not that IQ testing is a great determinant of practical intelligence anyway) and I never harassed you. Simply was trying to elucidate the possible validity of follicept and calling you out for treating a friendly company rep like trash.  And got called a monkey for it. Anyway I like monkeys, they are quite intelligent. This place is a waste of time. Sheesh

----------


## sdsurfin

> Adding capsaicin cream and 100mg soy isoflavone to my regimen to increase CGRP. Why not, I'm already going with the kitchen sink approach, so what's two more things.


 I don't think boosting free IGF is going to do anything. The Japanese study that used soy and capsaicin reportedly was forged.

----------


## Slam1523

> Jesus. Follicept only came on here because I was in communication with them privately. You only heard the last explanation from replicel because they contacted me. There is currently a possible source of affordable pgd2 blockers because I've done my networking. I'll be sure to keep all these things off this forum from now on, this place is too much of a joke. And swooping I would send you my test scores and credentials just to shut you up if it wasn't for the fact that I really don't want you knowing who I am. Suffice it to say I have a much higher than average IQ (not that IQ testing is a great determinant of practical intelligence anyway) and I never harassed you. Simply was trying to elucidate the possible validity of follicept and calling you out for treating a friendly company rep like trash.  And got called a monkey for it. Anyway I like monkeys, they are quite intelligent. This place is a waste of time. Sheesh


 
Bro just ignore him...  90% of the time if I see his name I just skip over it, because generally when a thread is longer than two pages his comments are really just insults...  Thanks for getting in touch with these guys though!

----------


## unbalding

> I don't think boosting free IGF is going to do anything. The Japanese study that used soy and capsaicin reportedly was forged.


 It's not one of the papers that was retracted. Boosting free IGF isn't the point either. Capsaicin is supposed to stimulate the sensory nerve. The isoflavone is then used by the sensory nerve to increase CGRP production which helps the hair follicles to produce IGF-1. 

http://www.jhgc.com.sg/theory/igf-1/index.html

----------


## LongWayHome

sdsurfin, Just ignore him man.
In every forum there's "that guy", and this time it's him.
Me and many others are really thankful for everything you've done.
It's just words coming out of a keyboard in a really sad room of a very sad man.

Oh and follicept, thank you too. You're a really genuine guy, appreciate everything.

----------


## Gerhard

> Bro just ignore him...  90% of the time if I see his name I just skip over it, because generally when a thread is longer than two pages his comments are really just insults...  Thanks for getting in touch with these guys though!


 This. We've all appreciated your hard work and more positive than the average viewpoint. Keep up the good work and stick around. If it weren't for you I know I wouldn't know shit about OC or have asked questions regarding Seti. Don't take some of the shit some people say on here to heart. Not worth your time.

----------


## sdsurfin

> It's not one of the papers that was retracted. Boosting free IGF isn't the point either. Capsaicin is supposed to stimulate the sensory nerve. The isoflavone is then used by the sensory nerve to increase CGRP production which helps the hair follicles to produce IGF-1. 
> 
> http://www.jhgc.com.sg/theory/igf-1/index.html


 Ok yeah I doubt it'll hurt, but just wanted to inform you that the other Japanese studies about soy and capsaicin were fudged.

----------


## sdsurfin

The more I research the more I'm thinking that the main culprit in hair loss is DHT shutting down the gene called p-cadherin

If you read up on it, p-cadherin basically allows the WNT and beta catenin pathway to work and grow hair. Dht blocks cadherin. I have no idea how one could go about fixing this problem but it seems to be the lynchpin. It makes sense that dht acts to turn a gene on or off and this cascade all kinds of apoptosis. I think that as long as there is no fix for this were screwed, unless we implant brand new cells. Even if we block pgd2 , the WNT pathway is still gonna be all messed up. Maybe with a combo of a pgd2 blocker, a WNT booster, an IGF booster, and a safe anti androgen we can hold onto what we have til engineered hair comes out haha. It's all too much, so much easier to just shave the done and forget it :Smile:

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah but doesnt dut or something like RU prevent MPB then by never allowing any of that to happen by stopping DHT in the very beginning? Thats why we cant give up completely on stuff like CB its still one of the most proven approaches so far. Once all those downstream events start happening though I can see how DHT becomes less important as other things take over.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Yeah but doesnt dut or something like RU prevent MPB then by never allowing any of that to happen by stopping DHT in the very beginning? Thats why we cant give up completely on stuff like CB its still one of the most proven approaches so far. Once all those downstream events start happening though I can see how DHT becomes less important as other things take over.


 Yup. A topical and safe anti androgen would be great. But I also have a feeling that androgens are not the only pathway that triggers a collapse. Would make sense because females and non x-linked baldness might depend on different triggers. I think the follicle degrades in the same way for the most part, but different genetics probably have different triggers. Dht is def a common one. I really hope that replacement with new follicles works out and overrides other problems in scalp cells. Hair transplants working are a good sign.

----------


## paulie72785

So if it releases properly with a brand or seller like XYZ in lets say january 2016 and the same company is  IN INDIA, how long will it take to reach common public??

----------


## unbalding

> So if it releases properly with a brand or seller like XYZ in lets say january 2016 and the same company is  IN INDIA, how long will it take to reach common public??


 Their plan is to get this to market in a matter of months, not years.

----------


## paulie72785

Im not very science literate but this IGF-1 is really interesting since i can't take finasteride. 
I would really appreciate it if someone correct me when i say that:-
1. It will act like an ANTI-ANDROGEN as well as an ANDROGEN RECEPTOR ANTAGONIST by blocking testosterone from getting into the hair follicles thereby no more Dihydrotestosterone is produced anymore.
2. It will NOT cause cancer or something as its in so low doses if it goes systemic

Also could you guys at follicept do the same with a transdermal lotion/cream with Spironolactone if it is possible. No more systemic absoprtion is good enough to bet my left ball on.

----------


## paulie72785

Also when you guys say "Price it same as to Rogaine"
you mean Generic minoxidil right or are you guys gonna rate it like the branded one?? Coz if it gets to India, it won't be that affordable. PLEASE anser this question follicept

----------


## shaft

I just hope this stuff is not another snake oil & piss poor like Min.

But first guys we are over looking one thing with all this maybe new stuff is how does this get passed the FDA cas we all know very well if there is a buck to be made the FDA wants a slice of the cake in some shape or form.

Think about what they did with lipogain pulling AA from the formula why would that be you may ask.

Yep there maybe loop holes to produce such a magic winning product but once the FDA gets a sniff there $$$$ to be had & rogain bitch then all of a suden FDA pulls rank as they always do.

I hope not cas we all agree that all this MPB stuff & no real cure is getting really really old for us guys who's seen some very good ideas from really clever people just been pissed on by the FDA.

I shall wait in the wings like I have for the last 27 yrs.

----------


## unbalding

A success story for capsaicin with minoxidil from another board:




> Thats my first message even though I’ve been visiting the site since 2000.I’m 32 years old and 5 years ago I’ve had the classic treatment with ketoconazole shampoo, minoxidil 5% and finasteride 1mg for 1 whole year with moderate results which of course I lost after I stopped using all this stuff. 8 months ago I’ve started taking dutasteride 0,5 mg to see if I could have some of my hair back. 2 months ago my hair condition improved a little bit but not much and I did a little research on the internet about any topicals which I could add. So I made a cayenne liniment for which I have found some good reports (and a few discouraging too though).I started using it with minoxidil lotion 5% (not in the same bottle).Now 2 months later I have amazing results, a great number of vellus hair and many of them are transforming into terminal hair.I have more hair now than I did 5 years ago after a whole year with fin+minox+nizo - See more at: http://www.regrowth.com/hair-loss-fo....3lV2p3Nd.dpuf

----------


## follicept

> sdsurfin, Just ignore him man.
> In every forum there's "that guy", and this time it's him.
> Me and many others are really thankful for everything you've done.
> It's just words coming out of a keyboard in a really sad room of a very sad man.
> 
> Oh and follicept, thank you too. You're a really genuine guy, appreciate everything.


 Thanks for that! Happy to help, or try...

----------


## follicept

> Im not very science literate but this IGF-1 is really interesting since i can't take finasteride. 
> I would really appreciate it if someone correct me when i say that:-
> 1. It will act like an ANTI-ANDROGEN as well as an ANDROGEN RECEPTOR ANTAGONIST by blocking testosterone from getting into the hair follicles thereby no more Dihydrotestosterone is produced anymore.
> 2. It will NOT cause cancer or something as its in so low doses if it goes systemic
> 
> Also could you guys at follicept do the same with a transdermal lotion/cream with Spironolactone if it is possible. No more systemic absoprtion is good enough to bet my left ball on.


 Not familiar with the uses of Spironolactone, but it is a pretty small molecule- around 416 Da, well within our range. IGF-1 is 7000+ Da.  I passed on to the science team...

----------


## follicept

> Also when you guys say "Price it same as to Rogaine"
> you mean Generic minoxidil right or are you guys gonna rate it like the branded one?? Coz if it gets to India, it won't be that affordable. PLEASE anser this question follicept


 I said Rogaine to mean Rogaine. I would rather underpromise and overdeliver than say generic and then "just kidding, more expensive". There is way too much to work out to give you a definitive answer, but I can tell you that from both a company ethos standpoint and a financial standpoint, we want to make it as accessible as possible.

----------


## follicept

> I just hope this stuff is not another snake oil & piss poor like Min.
> 
> But first guys we are over looking one thing with all this maybe new stuff is how does this get passed the FDA cas we all know very well if there is a buck to be made the FDA wants a slice of the cake in some shape or form.
> 
> Think about what they did with lipogain pulling AA from the formula why would that be you may ask.
> 
> Yep there maybe loop holes to produce such a magic winning product but once the FDA gets a sniff there $$$$ to be had & rogain bitch then all of a suden FDA pulls rank as they always do.
> 
> I hope not cas we all agree that all this MPB stuff & no real cure is getting really really old for us guys who's seen some very good ideas from really clever people just been pissed on by the FDA.
> ...


 Ideally, we will work within the regulations of the FDA, and then as soon as we can afford to, conduct very rigorous trials as if it were considered a drug anyway, and pre-empt any concerns they may have...

----------


## KO1

Ok, when do your trials start?

----------


## Conpecia

Follicept, loving the way you guys are approaching this and I'm 100% on board with any trials you guys can rustle up in the next few months. You come across as a solid guy and the whole project seems transparent, moral, and scientific. 

A big thumbs up to you Gators from a Bulldawg in Athens, GA.

----------


## Conpecia

And just as a general message to the community, this should be the new standard when someone starts hyping up a new treatment. 

1. Video of themselves and profile on this site to answer questions.
2. Detailed explanations of science involved. 
3. Legitimate scientists behind the treatment. 
4. Offer free trials and will not charge until proof of efficacy. 
5. Willing to bite the bullet and provide negative data if the treatment fails.

I find it exceedingly difficult to be critical of a company that is willing to do all of this on the front end. Hats off to these guys.

----------


## follicept

> Ok, when do your trials start?


 Hopefully late this week or early next.

----------


## follicept

> Hi Devon, I have a question. I am not sure if you covered this, but is there any specific reason that pulse therapy is considered over a continuous dose? Do you believe there will be enhanced efficacy that way? I understand that this is probably far too early to ask this, but just checking as to where you guys stand as of now.
> 
> Also, just want to say, thank you for being so honest and open about this whole thing. You have stood valiantly, and with class and dignity despite all the ridiculous accusations. Best of luck with the trials!


 I think it has to do with the follicle cycles, and creating a positive feedback loop. From my (limited) understanding of what the science team tells me, the IGF-1 receptors are activated, and wake up neighboring ones, which could take time. I believe I copied a response to this on a much earlier post... Thanks!

----------


## Helix

Swooping  did you read Devon's answer about injections vs Follicept ?




> It is not just more convenient, it is indeed better. In our rat studies (yes, we all know the limitations), we had the same therapeutic effect of 140 units of insulin per week with just 6 units of insulin. Not just more convenient. More efficient.


 I am skeptic about this product also, it might not work, i might be a scam but how the hell are you so sure that injections are the "holy grail" of delivery systems and that that there is absolutely no better way ? You made some valid points and thank you for that, but others are just pure speculations.

----------


## Helix

> Our technology can deliver drug right to the venous/capillary plexus, which is more efficient, not painful at all, avoids first pass metabolism, eliminates biohazardous waste, and so much more. 
> 
> You are confusing effectiveness and efficiency. Injection is very effective. It is not very efficient. We are the first to break the rule of 500 like this. Stay tuned. Follicept or not, we are in discussion with major pharma players.


 Something started to bother me lately. We all know that IGF-1 is related to cancer. Now my question is, if Follicept is more efficient than injections for hair growth than wouldn't it also be more efficient in inducing cancer ?

----------


## follicept

> Something started to bother me lately. We all know that IGF-1 is related to cancer. Now my question is, if Follicept is more efficient than injections for hair growth than wouldn't it also be more efficient in inducing cancer ?


 Objection: asked and answered. 1-10ppm is so low that even full systemic absorption (unlikely) is lower than normal levels in the blood. So low in fact that it's within the margin of error for detection tests in the blood.

----------


## serenemoon

> Something started to bother me lately. We all know that IGF-1 is related to cancer. Now my question is, if Follicept is more efficient than injections for hair growth than wouldn't it also be more efficient in inducing cancer ?


 Here you go. https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post199374

----------


## Arashi

If you guys can really deliver molecules into the skin without them going systematic then why choose some growth factor that nobody had success with?  Why not choose a proven cure like finasteride?  If people could use fin without sides,  that would be a cure for most people.

----------


## serenemoon

> If you guys can really deliver molecules into the skin without them going systematic then why choose some growth factor that nobody had success with?  Why not choose a proven cure like finasteride?  If people could use fin without sides,  that would be a cure for most people.


 Because their in vivo trials on mouse models whose hair loss gene was suppressed ended up being successful. Let them run the human trials. They said they will experiment with other compounds too if IGF-1 does not work. Finasteride topical will take at least 5 years of clinical trials, so let's see if they can give us something effective a bit faster. If not, on to the next one.

----------


## follicept

> If you guys can really deliver molecules into the skin without them going systematic then why choose some growth factor that nobody had success with?  Why not choose a proven cure like finasteride?  If people could use fin without sides,  that would be a cure for most people.


 Possible in future. 5 year minimum to market. probably $50M in costs to tests and market. If you got it, we'll take it and start tomorrow.

----------


## tom12345

> I think it has to do with the follicle cycles, and creating a positive feedback loop. From my (limited) understanding of what the science team tells me, the IGF-1 receptors are activated, and wake up neighboring ones, which could take time. I believe I copied a response to this on a much earlier post... Thanks!


 Devon, I was unfortunate enough to lose hair kind of quickly and during a period of time where I indulged in ephedra for my workouts. I've found that on my scalp, there is hair that grows normally and has normal thickness and so forth. Like hair should be. However, the hair that's thinner on the scalp grows significantly slower. Since you mentioned in a video that you were losing hair, are you experiencing the same thing with certain hair growing normally and others very slow, so we can get an evaluation of how it affects "thin and slow-growing hairs"? I've also got to ask about the hairs in the three pictures on your webpage. Where and on what (i.e. non-human) are those hairs located? It shows hair growing and staying, but they look like vellous hairs without pigmentation (thus without cosmetic value.)

Appreciate your presence (and patience!) on here and look forward to your trials.

----------


## Arashi

> Because their in vivo trials on mouse models whose hair loss gene was suppressed ended up being successful. Let them run the human trials. They said they will experiment with other compounds too if IGF-1 does not work. Finasteride topical will take at least 5 years of clinical trials, so let's see if they can give us something effective a bit faster. If not, on to the next one.


  There are tons of effective cures for mice already.  We can even get a hairless mouse all the hairs it needs via biogenerating hair follicles in the lab.  Yet none of these cures translated to success in humans. 

This company supposedly has the cure for hairloss (=fin without sides) yet they don't pursue it.  What's Devon even doing on this forum while Merck surely would like to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for a license?

----------


## Arashi

> Possible in future. 5 year minimum to market. probably $50M in costs to tests and market. If you got it, we'll take it and start tomorrow.


  Lol just call Merck,  tell them you have a vehicle for their finasteride that eliminates all sides,  ask them 500 million usd and never look back.  Seriously why not do that instead of trying to convince some baldies here of your product?

----------


## tom12345

> There are tons of effective cures for mice already.  We can even get a hairless mouse all the hairs it needs via biogenerating hair follicles in the lab.  Yet none of these cures translated to success in humans. 
> 
> This company supposedly has the cure for hairloss (=fin without sides) yet they don't pursue it.  What's Devon even doing on this forum while Merck surely would like to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for a license?


 Finasteride didn't do shit for me the two years I was on it. I lost hair 10 years ago, can't say I've lost more since, so there was nothing to halt, and it definitely didn't regrow anything. Regrowth is what I'm looking for.

----------


## tf2legend

> If you guys can really deliver molecules into the skin without them going systematic then why choose some growth factor that nobody had success with?  Why not choose a proven cure like finasteride?  If people could use fin without sides,  that would be a cure for most people.


 Its obvious you haven't kept up with this thread.

----------


## Swooping

> Injection has only been superior to this point because it was basically the only option. The whole value proposition of our company and technology is transporting large molecules across the skin without needles. So far we have done up to 22kDa. 
> 
> Let's take the example of insulin (which as you know, we have delivered). Most people inject 20 or more units per day. They create a little reservoir of insulin in the skin/fat/muscle. There is variability from every injection. They get scars and nodules. If they hit a vein/capillary, they can go hypoglycemic, possibly even die from it. There is first pass metabolism of the liver, so much of what they inject never even gets used.
> 
> Our technology can deliver drug right to the venous/capillary plexus, which is more efficient, not painful at all, avoids first pass metabolism, eliminates biohazardous waste, and so much more. 
> 
> You are confusing effectiveness and efficiency. Injection is very effective. It is not very efficient. We are the first to break the rule of 500 like this. Stay tuned. Follicept or not, we are in discussion with major pharma players.


 Ho-oh, wait. I'm not talking about your delivery for insulin though. We are talking about intra dermal delivery here. That's a whole different level. We don't even want to to get IGF-1 the same route as insulin needs to go. We want IGF-1 to act on the micro and macro environment of the hair follicle, specifically at the base of the hair follicle right, the bulb? A miniaturized hair follicle lies around ~2.5mm depth a full healthy anagen hair follicle at ~4-4.5. Yes your delivery might have some merits against injections for instance in giving a "continuous" dosage of IGF-1 assuming that the binding kinetics ain't favorable for IGF-1. I didn't study the pharmacokinetics of IGF-1. So yes depending on the compound some delivery methods might be better than injections it depends. But then again you could repeatedly inject IGF-1 too as you mention, to cope with that problem. Furthermore I'm pretty sure you and your team know more in this respective field than me. So I don't want to act ignorant on this.

I think you heavily undermine the implications in Androgenetic Alopecia and hair follicle biology itself though. Thinking that IGF-1 can even come close to a compound like minoxidil is just extremely unlikely really even in the scenario of optimal delivery. It really is. I can say this cause in this field, yes I'm fully aware of every paper around of hair follicle biology & AGA. Estrogen for example the only compound known to cause reversal of AGA to full extent sometimes works on baffling many factors including IGF-1. Minoxidil exactly the same story as I mentioned. 

Anyway there will be some scenarios likely and time will tell us what will happen. If you stay objective you will either release or not release the treatment depending on the results.If you then release it and it does work great, awesome I'll even kiss you. If you won't release it then fine too, nice try really. 

However if you are going to work with bias like many people and companies have done in the past then you are going to release the treatment no matter what happens and that will lead to huge disappointment under people. That would be a bad thing. 

Oh btw I'm surprised that you are discouraged by people like me. You should get powered by guys like me! Skepticism is healthy, I'm not going to dance around like a little kid who wants a candy. If you are going to run your trial now and you will be confident that it works good, I still won't be convinced. I'll be only convinced if independent people attest this. That's the ultimate proof.

----------


## follicept

> Lol just call Merck,  tell them you have a vehicle for their finasteride that eliminates all sides,  ask them 500 million usd and never look back.  Seriously why not do that instead of trying to convince some baldies here of your product?


 Quite naive. Not the way the pharma world works. I wish (and we initially thought!) it would be that easy. Companies have structure, bureaucracy, corporate and strategic objectives, such that what seems obvious to us is just impossible for them. Soon enough, they'll all come knocking.

----------


## Keki

There are alredy working topical finasteride and to some people it gives sides anyway, it's not that simple

----------


## follicept

> Devon, I was unfortunate enough to lose hair kind of quickly and during a period of time where I indulged in ephedra for my workouts. I've found that on my scalp, there is hair that grows normally and has normal thickness and so forth. Like hair should be. However, the hair that's thinner on the scalp grows significantly slower. Since you mentioned in a video that you were losing hair, are you experiencing the same thing with certain hair growing normally and others very slow, so we can get an evaluation of how it affects "thin and slow-growing hairs"? I've also got to ask about the hairs in the three pictures on your webpage. Where and on what (i.e. non-human) are those hairs located? It shows hair growing and staying, but they look like vellous hairs without pigmentation (thus without cosmetic value.)
> 
> 
> Appreciate your presence (and patience!) on here and look forward to your trials.


 I really haven't studied my hair that much. I know it's going, it bums me out a bit, I i deal with it. Hairless rat. These rats were genetically engineered to have a gene turned off for hair growth. Thus, the hair is white, wispy, spiraled. Not ideal for hair growth model, but ideal for transdermal so you don't have to fight around hair to get the formulation on the skin. To us at least, this is a bit more impressive. Other rats are bred to have very clear, dark, visible hair for testing like this. We'll know on humans soon.

----------


## Arashi

> Finasteride didn't do shit for me the two years I was on it. I lost hair 10 years ago, can't say I've lost more since, so there was nothing to halt, and it definitely didn't regrow anything. Regrowth is what I'm looking for.


  Finasteride and minoxidil are the only 2 proven meds in clinical trials. They grow hair and or reduce hairloss for lots of people.  Yet the big and horrible sides keep many people from using them.  If you have a product that can eliminate those sides you have made yourself hundreds of millions of dollars.

----------


## Arashi

> There are alredy working topical finasteride and to some people it gives sides anyway, it's not that simple


 But that's what follicept claims that they have a product that can deliver molecules without going systematic and thus no sides.

----------


## serenemoon

> But that's what follicept claims that they have a product that can deliver molecules without going systematic and thus no sides.


 It is not necessarily that the transdermal delivery system gives no sides. I am sure if they used a shit ton of compound you will start seeing some sides. It is that the amount of IGF-1 used/needed is sooo god damn low that chance of it going systemic is really low, and therefore, no chance of sides. Even if it goes systemic, the body won't even feel it. The beauty of the delivery system is that it gets IGF-1 through the skin (or certain other compounds), instead of having to inject large doses. It depends on the compound added to the transdermal delivery system and the dosage used. For Follicept, no sides is the expected case.

----------


## noisette

> There are tons of effective cures for mice already.  We can even get a hairless mouse all the hairs it needs via biogenerating hair follicles in the lab.  Yet none of these cures translated to success in humans. 
> 
> This company supposedly has the cure for hairloss (=fin without sides) yet they don't pursue it.  What's Devon even doing on this forum while Merck surely would like to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for a license?


 
Fin without sides is not a Cure for hairloss. Fin is not a cure, you know that. Stop talking even if you think it is a scam, perhaps it will perhaps it won't. Come back when the results will be there. 
For your information Desmond not thinking like you : 

Desmond's post : " 
Follicept is looking very interesting...these guys are definitely onto something as long as it's carcinogenicity potential is fully tested prior to release. I have to do some reading to see where does IGF come into play with regards to androgens, but I'm sure they know what they're talking about. I'll keep you guys posted if I find anything interesting  " 

So be kind to stay with us and wait the results before saying some bullshits about Follicept. Nobody Knows until the results will be here !

----------


## nameless

The people who are calling Follicept a scam are overlooking some important points. One of those points is that in order for Follicept to have been planning a scam along Follicept would have had to know before the FDA decision that the FDA was not going to require standard phase 1, phase 2, and phase 3 studies, and there is no way that Follicept could have known that beforehand.

You see, if the FDA had required phase 1, phase 2, and phase 3 studies for Follicept, which the FDA could have done, then Follica would be preparing a standard pilot study right now to try to establish efficacy so that they could sell the property rights to a big pharma if the pilot study went well. And then there wouldn't be talk that Follicept is a scam because there's no reason to accuse a company of being a scam if it's treatment is going through the standard FDA clinical trial process. Follicept would not put a treatment through the standard FDA clinical trial process if they knew the treatment is snake oil. And of course Follicept thought that their treatment would have to go through standard studies when they first submitted forms to FDA. 

Follicept is NOT a scam. It may not work but it is not a scam.

----------


## Helix

> Objection: asked and answered. 1-10ppm is so low that even full systemic absorption (unlikely) is lower than normal levels in the blood. So low in fact that it's within the margin of error for detection tests in the blood.


 I understand that you use tiny doses that usually shouldn't be a problem, but you said that there is something with your vehicle that is making it more efficient. You said that you had the same therapeutic effect of 140 units of insulin per week with just 6 units of insulin. If you had better therapeutic effect then maybe the possibility of side effects will also increase because of the specific properties of your vehicle.

----------


## tom12345

> Finasteride and minoxidil are the only 2 proven meds in clinical trials. They grow hair and or reduce hairloss for lots of people.  Yet the big and horrible sides keep many people from using them.  If you have a product that can eliminate those sides you have made yourself hundreds of millions of dollars.


 Anyway, it didn't for me, so I'm looking to try something new. Done both minox and fin. That said, I've had the aftermath from previous hairloss for many years now, and consider myself a senior in the business, so I don't get my hopes up about anything because I've seen so much crap come and go -- and early on, latched on with the last glimmer of hope to it. Finasteride was good to me in terms of side-effects until I after 2 years decided that what I needed was an intensive cure, so I upped the dosage, and the testicular pain that followed was no joke. I was bedridden for a couple of days because the junk hurt when I moved. That's when I quit finasteride. What I like about Follicept is getting the results from the trial quickly instead of waiting for years of clinical studies. The scientific parts of how it works, I leave to the scientists. :-)

----------


## nameless

> It is not necessarily that the transdermal delivery system gives no sides. I am sure if they used a shit ton of compound you will start seeing some sides. It is that the amount of IGF-1 used/needed is sooo god damn low that chance of it going systemic is really low, and therefore, no chance of sides. Even if it goes systemic, the body won't even feel it. The beauty of the delivery system is that it gets IGF-1 through the skin (or certain other compounds), instead of having to inject large doses. It depends on the compound added to the transdermal delivery system and the dosage used. For Follicept, no sides is the expected case.


 
And that could result in an efficacy problem because they may not be able to get a dose sufficient to grow hair into human follicles unless they increase the amount of IGF-1 in the mixture and then enough might get into the body to create sides so an efficacious dose may not be possible.

----------


## Arashi

> Fin without sides is not a Cure for hairloss. Fin is not a cure, you know that. Stop talking even if you think it is a scam, perhaps it will perhaps it won't. Come back when the results will be there. 
> For your information Desmond not thinking like you : 
> 
> Desmond's post : " 
> Follicept is looking very interesting...these guys are definitely onto something as long as it's carcinogenicity potential is fully tested prior to release. I have to do some reading to see where does IGF come into play with regards to androgens, but I'm sure they know what they're talking about. I'll keep you guys posted if I find anything interesting  " 
> 
> So be kind to stay with us and wait the results before saying some bullshits about Follicept. Nobody Knows until the results will be here !


 Finasteride IS a cure!  Sure it doesn't work for everybody but which medicine does?  It's proven highly effective in FDA clinical trials. Merck would be willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for a way to deliver it without the horrible sides.  Yet Devon is here trying to convince some baldies instead of selling his product to Merck.  How you guys don't see through this scam is really beyond me.

----------


## serenemoon

> I understand that you use tiny doses that usually shouldn't be a problem, but you said that there is something with your vehicle that is making it more efficient. You said that you had the same therapeutic effect of 140 units of insulin per week with just 6 units of insulin. If you had better therapeutic effect then maybe the possibility of side effects will also increase because of the specific properties of your vehicle.


 The vehicle does not matter if 1-10ppm is all that is going systemic. Better therapeutic effect from a MUCH lower dosage does not mean "stronger sides." Think about it. If it went 1-10 ppm systemic through an injection (which is highly unlikely through injection, but for the sake of argument let's imagine it to be so) and if it went 1-10 ppm systemic through the transdermal delivery system, is there really a difference, since 1-10 ppm systemic =no sides?

----------


## Justinian

> Finasteride IS a cure!  Sure it doesn't work for everybody but which medicine does?  It's proven highly effective in FDA clinical trials. Merck would be willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for a way to deliver it without the horrible sides.  Yet Devon is here trying to convince some baldies instead of selling his product to Merck.  How you guys don't see through this scam is really beyond me.


 I believe Medck determined that ease of use was more important to people than a chance of side effects. The people on this board are just a biased sample.

----------


## tom12345

> Finasteride IS a cure!  Sure it doesn't work for everybody but which medicine does?  It's proven highly effective in FDA clinical trials. Merck would be willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for a way to deliver it without the horrible sides.  Yet Devon is here trying to convince some baldies instead of selling his product to Merck.  How you guys don't see through this scam is really beyond me.


 Trying to convince all 50 posters to invest a hundred dollars for a few weeks of yay or nay? Guess he hit paydirt here!

----------


## Arashi

> Trying to convince all 50 posters to invest a hundred dollars for a few weeks of yay or nay? Guess he hit paydirt here!


  This thread has 200.000 views.  Selling their scam for 6 months would make a decent bag of money.

----------


## cr1mson

> This thread has 200.000 views.  Selling their scam for 6 months would make a decent bag of money.


 Laughable that your STILL calling this a scam and its not even on sale. Wait, let them run trials, and if it fails then bash them. If your hair looks anything like your avatar, pray to God that this works and they release it asap

----------


## tom12345

> This thread has 200.000 views.  Selling their scam for 6 months would make a decent bag of money.


 50 people read all 112 pages onces. There's some ten and thousands of views for you. Lurkers looking for updates revisiting the thread every so often, that ups the count. People having posted and looking for replies every minute, so there's a few more views for you. It's not like it has 200.000 unique paying customers waiting to throw money at Follicept.

----------


## Illusion

> This thread has 200.000 views.


 About 50.000 are from Keki though

----------


## Arashi

> Laughable that your STILL calling this a scam and its not even on sale. Wait, let them run trials, and if it fails then bash them. If your hair looks anything like your avatar, pray to God that this works and they release it asap


  Did you follow yoram here?  He operated the exact same way. He turned out to be a scammer  though of course noobs like yourself where defending him till the very end. So,  the only thing laughable here is your comment. 

And if you don't even know where my forum pic comes from,  then you are even more clueless than I figured.

----------


## Helix

> Better therapeutic effect from a MUCH lower dosage does not mean "stronger sides."


 I hope so, but how do you know that ?

Until we know how exactly they achieved better therapeutic effect we can't really be sure.

----------


## stayhopeful

> Did you follow yoram here?  He operated the exact same way. He turned out to be a scammer  though of course noobs like yourself where defending him till the very least. So,  the only thing laughable here is your comment. 
> 
> And if you don't even know where my forum pic comes from,  then you are even more clueless than I figured.


 your avatar is the most laughable thing here.  If that is indeed how you look, i now understand why you are so bitter.  Sorry brother.  Just hang in there.  Hopefully Follicept comes through for us.  We will know A LOT more next week

----------


## Swooping

> About 50.000 are from Keki though


 Hahahaha, after breakbot you get the best comment of this whole thread dude! Pure gold lol.

----------


## Arashi

> your avatar is the most laughable thing here.  If that is indeed how you look, i now understand why you are so bitter.  Sorry brother.  Just hang in there.  Hopefully Follicept comes through for us.  We will know A LOT more next week


 Haha you also don't even know where my avatar comes from...  No wonder you guys are defending this shill.  You have been sleeping under a rock for the last 2 years

----------


## cr1mson

> Did you follow yoram here?  He operated the exact same way. He turned out to be a scammer  though of course noobs like yourself where defending him till the very least. So,  the only thing laughable here is your comment. 
> 
> And if you don't even know where my forum pic comes from,  then you are even more clueless than I figured.


 Lol you can preach and say whatever you want, at the end of the day no one is gonna be offended by some dude on a balding forum. I have no idea who Yoram is here, or where the pic is, because I dont spend the whole day on here like you. Just because someone else was a scammer doesn't mean this guy is. He is being honest and fully transparent, give him a chance. The amount of pessimism and negativity on this forum is incredible. You would think that there would be a little more hope on a balding forum. Anyway sorry for taking this off topic guys.

----------


## serenemoon

> Finasteride IS a cure!  Sure it doesn't work for everybody but which medicine does?  It's proven highly effective in FDA clinical trials. Merck would be willing to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for a way to deliver it without the horrible sides.  Yet Devon is here trying to convince some baldies instead of selling his product to Merck.  How you guys don't see through this scam is really beyond me.


 Sigh. So the fact that they are not selling the vehicle to Merck as of now is a sign that they are a scam. I see. The fact they want to try something they believe could be effective (with a completely new delivery system) is a sign that they are a scam. Got it.

----------


## Jonathan

> This thread has 200.000 views.  Selling their scam for 6 months would make a decent bag of money.


 http://www.prometheonpharma.com/company/ 

Maybe I'm prejudiced, but these people do not look like the typical gangster. Nor does their background or education suggests that they would be part of an organized crime.

Shame on you who are trying to defame these nice people!

----------


## serenemoon

He covered why there is better insulin therapeutic effect with insulin. "Our technology can deliver drug right to the venous/capillary plexus, which is more efficient, not painful at all, avoids first pass metabolism, eliminates biohazardous waste, and so much more.

You are confusing effectiveness and efficiency. Injection is very effective. It is not very efficient. We are the first to break the rule of 500 like this. Stay tuned. Follicept or not, we are in discussion with major pharma players. "

BUt yeah, I am sure this will all be figured out through trials. I suppose we will wait and see.

----------


## Arashi

> Sigh. So the fact that they are not selling the vehicle to Merck as of now is a sign that they are a scam. I see. The fact they want to try something they believe could be effective (with a completely new delivery system) is a sign that they are a scam. Got it.


  It's called 'logic' and that's obviously something you are not familiar with.  People like you are the reason scammers exist in the first place.

----------


## serenemoon

> It's called 'logic' and that's obviously something you are not familiar with.  People like you are the reason scammed exist in the first place.


 Yup, let's not even give them a chance until the results are released. That sounds like wonderful logic to me.

----------


## Arashi

> http://www.prometheonpharma.com/company/ 
> 
> Maybe I'm prejudiced, but these people do not look like the typical gangster. Nor does their background or education suggests that they would be part of an organized crime.
> 
> Shame on you who are trying to defame these nice people!


 You guys have never heard of Yoram,  you don't even know where my forum pic comes from (a photoshopped pic Dr Nigam used among all his other lies and deceits)  and you probably haven't even heard of Doctor gho. You guys haven't noticed all those scammers here in the last few years yet you are convinced Devon isn't among them. Your noobishness  is devastating

----------


## cr1mson

> It's called 'logic' and that's obviously something you are not familiar with.  People like you are the reason scammed exist in the first place.


 This dude is obsessed with these forums. Chill out man, at the end of the day we are all balding and it sucks. The guy is trying to help, give him a CHANCE before you start to shit on him. At the end of the day, you don't know what you don't know. And even if the chances are high this will fail, you DON'T know. I bet you can't wait to run your mouth if this does fail though. And what does that accomplish? At the end of the day, me and you are still going to be balding. Ease off the forums for a bit man, its f***ing with your brain.

----------


## Arashi

> This dude is obsessed with these forums. Chill out man, at the end of the day we are all balding and it sucks. The guy is trying to help, give him a CHANCE before you start to shit on him. At the end of the day, you don't know what you don't know. And even if the chances are high this will fail, you DON'T know. I bet you can't wait to run your mouth if this does fail though. And what does that accomplish? At the end of the day, me and you are still going to be balding. Ease off the forums for a bit man, its f***ing with your brain.


 This guy is trying to make a buck out of desperate naive baldies like you,  just like all the other scammers we (well you not)  have seen here the last few years. Don't confuse that with a cure

----------


## serenemoon

> This guy is trying to make a buck out of desperate naive baldies like you,  just like all the other scammers we (well you not)  have seen here the last few years. Don't confuse that with a cure


 lol if it works Arashi is gonna be trying it lowkey while talking shit at the same time. Watch. hahahaha.

----------


## Arashi

> lol if it works Arashi is gonna be trying it lowkey while talking shit at the same time. Watch. hahahaha.


  Of course it works.  At least that's what follicept is going to make us believe through fake accounts like yours with success stories

----------


## serenemoon

> Of course it works.  At least that's what follicept is going to make us believe through fake accounts like yours with success stories


 Yup. Joined in Jan 2014. Started a thread about how theradome math is wrong and posted on a few other threads. Definite naive fake account over here. Your analytical skills are truly on point.

----------


## Arashi

> Yup. Joined in Jan 2014. Started a thread about how theradome math is wrong and posted on a few other threads. Definite naive fake account over here. Your analytical skills are truly on point.


  All these follicept pumpers have never even heard of Dr Nigam and  yoram who must be the two most discussed topics here in recent years.  All those accounts have only a few posts and all fight for follicept like their lives depend on it.  Yeah that's not suspicious at all,  lol

----------


## breakbot

> All these follicept pumpers have never even heard of Dr Nigam and  yoram who must be the two most discussed topics here in recent years.  All those accounts have only a few posts and all fight for follicept like their lives depend on it.  Yeah that's not suspicious at all,  lol


 Follicept is the real deal! Get over it. :Big Grin:

----------


## follicept

Sorry to take this ON topic, but to the questions about Okajima, etc. : links removed to his studies, and updated with the latest and strongest papers. Doesn't change the strength of our theory, but we do apologize for citing controversial support and diminishing the integrity of our product. Also, someone pointed out that our white paper was wrong in that lower levels of androgens are implicated in AGA, rather than higher. That is our error of a junior scientist as well. He mischaracterized the relationship, but not the role IGF-1 plays or again our theory. When Dr. Hsu has time, he will update that paper with some other figures and discussion based on interactions we have had with a poster on here that has helped us solidify what we think is going on. We'll upload that when we can, but satisfying trolls isn't our number 1 priority so I will let you know when it's up.

----------


## bigentries

> lol if it works Arashi is gonna be trying it lowkey while talking shit at the same time. Watch. hahahaha.


 If it works there's no reason for hair loss forums to exist anymore

But guess what the chances are? Arashi has already exposed other scams that were pushed in the past by a lot of the user praising follicept right now

Skeptics have a clean reputation. Sadly, there are no consequences for the other group that keeps pushing scams on hair loss forums

----------


## diffuseloser

Can we please stop pissing and moaning? Of course there are gonna be scams and of course you're gonna be pissed if you are a victim of one of those scams. It would be easy to scrutinise and pick holes in every future treatment cos you don't want to get f***ed again. But we have to at least try to have an open mind. I don't know the story of Nigam and Gho and I'm grateful I wasnt around to get sucked in to whatever false promises they made. However, I don't think its right that we should tar Follicept with the same brush until we know more. Nobody here is gonna be handing over any money so easily.

----------


## serenemoon

> All these follicept pumpers have never even heard of Dr Nigam and  yoram who must be the two most discussed topics here in recent years.  All those accounts have only a few posts and all fight for follicept like their lives depend on it.  Yeah that's not suspicious at all,  lol


 Holy shit, Devon this guy is onto us!!!

----------


## diffuseloser

Lol! Well, I'm just a regular guy born and bred in Ireland and I have no connection to Follicept, that's for sure. I remain neutral. I'm not kissing their ass, nor am I giving them s***. I'm just giving them the opportunity to show me what they can offer, while also listening to the advice of our more informed members here on both sides.

----------


## cr1mson

> This guy is trying to make a buck out of desperate naive baldies like you,  just like all the other scammers we (well you not)  have seen here the last few years. Don't confuse that with a cure


 Jesus Christ. In what part of my post did I say it was a cure. I said to give the man a damn chance before you shit on him. I haven't committed a single dollar, and wont until I believe it works. I think everyone should stop responding to this guy, he seems to be enjoying being a keyboard warrior. Lets get this thread back on track

----------


## noisette

> Yup. Joined in Jan 2014. Started a thread about how theradome math is wrong and posted on a few other threads. Definite naive fake account over here. Your analytical skills are truly on point.


 +1 me too. I'm on here with my account on 2013, and before that. So many years to follow you guys. Look at my account, and the threads I have created (Histogen, Replicel, Angela Christiano and The date for Follica, This is me that I found 2018 for the end of Cotsarelis project). I saw Nigams fakes pics, Liu etc... But I'm not agree with you. Follicept is pretty legit. I believe on their product. Perhaps this is not working but who knows ? If this products works, I will test it.

----------


## tom12345

> All these follicept pumpers have never even heard of Dr Nigam and  yoram who must be the two most discussed topics here in recent years.  All those accounts have only a few posts and all fight for follicept like their lives depend on it.  Yeah that's not suspicious at all,  lol


 I think you lost all credibility when you ignored the reply where you were dismantled on your argument about the number of views on this thread was equaling 200.000 * 100 dollars to Follicept. You should do like the rest of us: chill out and wait for the results.

----------


## efedrez

> All these follicept pumpers have never even heard of Dr Nigam and  yoram who must be the two most discussed topics here in recent years.  All those accounts have only a few posts and all fight for follicept like their lives depend on it.  Yeah that's not suspicious at all,  lol


 Hello Arashi,

I remember very well Dr Nigam and Yoram and also remember your contribution identifying them as a scam so I can tell you are really trying to help and not simply trolling this thread.

I also believe Follicept sounds more legit than them, I'm not saying there is not a chance this will go south just like the others, but I like to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Their science and approach looks a lot more serious and robust than the others (if you remember Yoram there was a very fishy history about a hairdresser recommending the products that was a very obvious red flag).

Also its not costing us anything, at least not just yet, and we have also proved in the past to be a more informed community than what scammers typically imagine, so after they release some results we will have a lot more analyze before ordering the first bottle.

----------


## nameless

> Hello Arashi,
> 
> I remember very well Dr Nigam and Yoram and also remember your contribution identifying them as a scam so I can tell you are really trying to help and not simply trolling this thread.
> 
> I also believe Follicept sounds more legit than them, I'm not saying there is not a chance this will go south just like the others, but I like to give them the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Their science and approach looks a lot more serious and robust than the others (if you remember Yoram there was a very fishy history about a hairdresser recommending the products that was a very obvious red flag).
> 
> Also its not costing us anything, at least not just yet, and we have also proved in the past to be a more informed community than what scammers typically imagine, so after they release some results we will have a lot more analyze before ordering the first bottle.


 I also think that Yoram is a scam, but I do not think that of Dr. Nigam. In Dr. Nigam's case I think he could not cure hair loss because the scientific community had not yet produced all of the technical information needed to cure hair loss. I think he was doing the best he could given that there are some missing pieces of the puzzle. On the other hand I think Yoram will end up selling some fake machines that light up to some suckers.

----------


## Hemo

> If you guys can really deliver molecules into the skin without them going systematic then why choose some growth factor that nobody had success with?  Why not choose a proven cure like finasteride?  If people could use fin without sides,  that would be a cure for most people.


 You sound more stupid with every post.  If you knew anything about their product, the whole reason Follicept can possibly be released this year is because they are delivering a hormone at an incredibly low dose, which avoids FDA oversight.  Using their vehicle to deliver a drug would require additional testing and further delay their release, in addition to requiring a lot more capital.  It's not as simple as just calling someone from Merck and saying "Hey, we have a new delivery mechanism that could be useful with Fin, wanna partner up?"

----------


## nameless

> I think you lost all credibility when you ignored the reply where you were dismantled on your argument about the number of views on this thread was equaling 200.000 * 100 dollars to Follicept. You should do like the rest of us: chill out and wait for the results.


 I agree that Arishi is jumping the gun and I agree that Follicept is NOT a scam, but I did just notice that Arishi does have a valid point about a lot of the supporters of Follicept being newbies. I think that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that Follicept is NOT a scam and I think Arishi should stop it too, but Arishi's point that a lot of Follicept's supporters are new is valid, although that does not prove anything against about Follicept.

----------


## Clion1995

Just a general question, where are Dr. Nigam and Yoram located? United States?

----------


## Keki

It's a fact that being costructive and positive worked well till now

- Opportunity to ask questions
- opportunity to show our doubt and our concern about the igf as hair growth treatment and about their company
- we succeed to help them speed up the trial
- we have a face, name and andress, and a real company who give us a safe product and not a shitty chinese imported one
- we can interact and ask them better data and RAW pictures
- we can eventually help again so even europe can have their follicept asap if it works, with a year of follicle saved

What would have happened if everyone flamed Devon at the beginning and he left the forum?

- no answers, no way to know how their product works or their theory about vehicle and igf
- slow trial with devon still looking for legit igf
- no interaction and eventually we would have only a bunch of pics on their site and nothing else

Basically an unknow company who claim hairgrow from igf like thousands of chinese igf spray which they charge for dunno 60-80$ after a year of silence, THAT sounds like a scam even if legit, they made the right call being totally trasparent here, we should be all grateful, even if it doesn't work

----------


## follicept

> You sound more stupid with every post.  If you knew anything about their product, the whole reason Follicept can possibly be released this year is because they are delivering a hormone at an incredibly low dose, which avoids FDA oversight.  Using their vehicle to deliver a drug would require additional testing and further delay their release, in addition to requiring a lot more capital.  It's not as simple as just calling someone from Merck and saying "Hey, we have a new delivery mechanism that could be useful with Fin, wanna partner up?"


 which, by the way, I did. Haha. It's not a strategic fit.

----------


## Clion1995

If Dr. Nigam is actually located in India, then the whole "this is a scam" argument is a complete joke. How the hell can you compare a company being run in India to one being run in the United States? Prometheon Pharma is located in the United States. Shit like that doesn't fly well here. Prometheon would tank if they tried to scam people. Where do you live, Arashi?

----------


## Clion1995

Also Arashi, if you would like, the United States has a beautiful feature. It is called the Federal Trade Commission. As said by Devon "Now scamming is a different issue. That's the FTC- Federal Trade Commission. They are responsible for punishing scammers, cracking down on false advertising, etc. if consumers are "harmed" (not in the medical sense, but scammed sense). They actually have more legal authority than the FDA. The FDA must get the Department of Justice to intervene from a legal standpoint if and when required."
If you really think this is a scam, give the FTC a phone call. They'll probably laugh at you and send you back to your plebeian life.

----------


## bigentries

> It's a fact that being costructive and positive worked well till now
> 
> - Opportunity to ask questions
> - opportunity to show our doubt and our concern about the igf as hair growth treatment and about their company
> - we succeed to help them speed up the trial
> - we have a face, name and andress, and a real company who give us a safe product and not a shitty chinese imported one
> - we can interact and ask them better data and RAW pictures
> - we can eventually help again so even europe can have their follicept asap if it works, with a year of follicle saved
> 
> ...


 "Constructive and positive" usually means non-critical around these parts.

Nothing you said matters. If things work they work, doesn't matter how much praise or dismissal they get. That's the good thing about science

Our positions as potential consumers should be to stay defensive, skeptical and ask critical questions. Unwarranted "positivity" has just made us targets of scams for years

All of your points were made about the Chloride treatment last year, I remember NeedHairASAP basically saying the same things. Don't scare the guy, we'll never know if it works, we need to help him

You know what happened? After months of staying "positive and constructive" the guy sold his treatment secretly to other forum members, who lost hair and got scarred for weeks.
All that could be avoided if, you know, instead of praising like little girls we would have asked for hard evidence since the beginning

----------


## stayhopeful

> "Constructive and positive" usually means non-critical around these parts.
> 
> Nothing you said matters. If things work they work, doesn't matter how much praise or dismissal they get. That's the good thing about science
> 
> Our positions as potential consumers should be to stay defensive, skeptical and ask critical questions. Unwarranted "positivity" has just made us targets of scams for years
> 
> All of your points were made about the Chloride treatment last year, I remember NeedHairASAP basically saying the same things. Don't scare the guy, we'll never know if it works, we need to help him
> 
> You know what happened? After months of staying "positive and constructive" the guy sold his treatment secretly to other forum members, who lost hair and got scarred for weeks.
> All that could be avoided if, you know, instead of praising like little girls we would have asked for hard evidence since the beginning


 we are asking for evidence.  so is Devon. that's exactly what we've been talking about for weeks.  the trial is going to start next week. 
what are you on dude?  do you know how to read?

----------


## bigentries

> If Dr. Nigam is actually located in India, then the whole "this is a scam" argument is a complete joke. How the hell can you compare a company being run in India to one being run in the United States? Prometheon Pharma is located in the United States. Shit like that doesn't fly well here. Prometheon would tank if they tried to scam people. Where do you live, Arashi?


 If you have the money you can ride through the lawsuits.

I think you need to do more reading dude. A lot of guys in the States have been scammed. You'll be amazed at the crap you find from reading 10+ years of hair loss forums

----------


## hiko

Finasteride is not a cure. It maintains hair and little else. I, like most people taking fin, have had no adverse effects. So a topical fin means nothing. A cure is something that regrows cosmetically significant amounts of terminal hair. 

Let follicept do the experiments and stop saying they are a scam. Even if they did turn out to be a scam, who cares? The only thing that matters is if the IGF gel is beneficial or not. And we will find that out in time, whether or not they are "scam artists". So you're not imparting any wisdom here. You don't know how anything will play out. You guys are not scientists. You have no body of work. How arrogant do you have to be to think you have a better grasp of hair follicle biology than actual researchers? You're just forum rats with nothing else to do. Which is why when anyone calls you out, you can't present any work of your own. You have to rush over to pubmed and find some article you think supports your argument. But in reality the researchers who write those articles and do those studies don't make any definitive statements like "this will never work!". They are open to all kinds of possibilities. Which is why they succeed and people like you fail. 

This is all I'm going to say to you so don't bother replying.

----------


## Keki

How can you "ask critical questions" if no one can answer because you made he run away from flames and free accusations? You can totally be skeptical, still think it doesn't work and ask for hard evidence because enough people didn't want to jump on the witch hunt some people organized here, the only thing we are giving them is our time and attention, nothing else, we are still waiting for proof like everyone else and no one here want to give them money blindly, expect somone who first flamed and then want some cheap stock to invest few thousands of dollars

----------


## Clion1995

Prometheon probably doesn't want to deal with the headaches of lawsuits while trying to start up and sell products. Assuming Bosley has been around for years (haven't heard of them, so clearly they are not great scammers  :Wink:  and visited their website and all they sell is minox and propecia-lol ) they probably have enough money to dodge lawsuits. Does that make sense?  :Smile:  Also, I'm assuming Bosley is a private company. The U of Florida wouldn't want scammers working for them to break scientific barriers, would they?

----------


## just2hairs

Arashi, you did good fighting off Nigam and Yoram...and Nameless, but you're totally off track here man.  You got that scam/shill momentum going and just don't know where to stop.

Why would Devon and Dr Hsu (Harvard med) jeopardize their life's work and hard-earned reputation for some measly amount of money from us balding guys?  Devon has presented himself very honestly and professionally...unlike Dr Yoram who ran away with the leeches.  

Why not just sit back and see how it plays out?

----------


## Trouse5858

> Prometheon probably doesn't want to deal with the headaches of lawsuits while trying to start up and sell products. Assuming Bosley has been around for years (haven't heard of them, so clearly they are not great scammers  and visited their website and all they sell is minox and propecia-lol ) they probably have enough money to dodge lawsuits. Does that make sense?  Also, I'm assuming Bosley is a private company. The U of Florida wouldn't want scammers working for them to break scientific barriers, would they?


 You've never heard of Bosley?  Safe to assume you're not from the United States..?

Bosley is basically a massive chain of hair transplant facilities in the U.S.  They actually started out doing rudimentary "hair plug" treatments that looked like crap and caught on to the new wave of transplants that involve the strip scar and I'm assuming now, FUE.  I'm sure some people have had decent results with them but it's a huge gamble.  Private practice surgeons cost more, but have more skill and artistry to make the transplanted follicles look genuine and reduce scarring/ rejection.

----------


## Clion1995

I live in Boston. I am not at the point where I need a hair transplant (knock on wood), and if I did I wouldn't pay with pennies to use some shit company like Bosley LOL. So no, I have not heard of them. I can't even see the comparison between a hair transplant company scamming people with a company that has ties to the University of Florida that relies on it's scientific integrity.

----------


## serenemoon

> I live in Boston. I am not at the point where I need a hair transplant (knock on wood), and if I did I wouldn't pay with pennies to use some shit company like Bosley LOL. So no, I have not heard of them. I can't even see the comparison between a hair transplant company scamming people with a company that has ties to the University of Florida that relies on it's scientific integrity.


 +1.

----------


## champpy

Guys can we please stop calling Follicept a "scam"?  It would be a scam if they intentionally lie to us and say it works and take our money.
They have done neither. They have not told us it works on humans. They have not asked for money.  How is that a scam?
You have the right to be doubtful, lets just stop with the name calling please

----------


## Jagger

> Guys can we please stop calling Follicept a "scam"?  It would be a scam if they intentionally lie to us and say it works and take our money.
> They have done neither. They have not told us it works on humans. They have not asked for money.  How is that a scam?
> You have the right to be doubtful, lets just stop with the name calling please


 I gave up trying to explain how name-calling and personal attacks don't help validate an argument about 50 pages ago. Best of luck picking up that torch. I suspect nothing will change until Follicept shows results one way or the other. And even then, you'll have certain members claiming the results are doctored or bullshit or...unless of course the treatment is proven not to work, in which case the negativity will be vindicated and then it's off to another thread to explain how no treatment will ever work.

----------


## diffuseloser

Some guys are seriously paranoid in here. Everything is a scam.

----------


## DanWS

> Some guys are seriously paranoid in here. Everything is a scam.


 This post is a scam. Someone from Follicept told you to write that.

----------


## Clion1995

Also, to the people like swooping, there's a reason behind the fact that you're not employed by Prometheon Pharma. Don't act like you're all high and mighty because you can argue with people on these forums and win. If you really were all that high and mighty, why aren't you employed to try and cure baldness?  :Cool:  Again, Dr. Hsu's credentials take a shit on yours (Harvard graduate school).

----------


## stayhopeful

I stand with #teamfollicept 

Looking forward to following your personal test Devon.  Thanks very much for sharing with us

----------


## diffuseloser

> This post is a scam. Someone from Follicept told you to write that.


 Yeah and I was paid handsomely for it. Can't wait to rip all you suckers off.

----------


## serenemoon

I am sure this has been posted before, but let's see what these people that you are so quick to call "scammers" look like, eh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mo3F-Dgx0Q  - They touch on hair growth here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVWlSAKsmVQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3-Nv4T6KRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPadjhuJonc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPadjhuJonc

What jerks they are :P

----------


## stayhopeful

#teamfollicept

----------


## burtandernie

> I believe Medck determined that ease of use was more important to people than a chance of side effects. The people on this board are just a biased sample.


 Yeah thats exactly right Merck had a poll and the majority of men wanted the oral route over topical. Just that simple. Would the topical have had less chance of sides? Not sure.

----------


## Keki

Don't trust them, i'm sure they will burn the lab and every evidence of the scam after they got our tasty 50$, seems they are like 5-10 in prometheon, i'm sure they are aiming for this 2k for each one thx the early batch before run

----------


## burtandernie

I was starting to think scam, but after seeing this I believe they are legit for now. Until this all works out though its still a little cart before the horse because theorizing something works for MPB doesnt mean it will. If it ends up working and they do a larger study I would buy it and believe it works to an extent. People selling snake oil wouldnt do this. Snake oil would toss up some bad pictures, some fake stories, and throw some common scientific jargon in there that people are familiar with like DHT, propecia, and some stuff people know works to give some confidence in their product.


"In pursuit of that, we will be doing a convenience sample asap on a handful of people, not much different than a backwoods experiment- "Hey Jimbo, 'mere. Try this crap out! I done made a concoction". We will show you those results as a courtesy. Those results will be as rigorously and consistently reported as they can be, but understand skepticism still at that point.

The results of that less rigorous (only because they are not randomized, blinded, or placebo controlled), convenience sample will tell us if it seems to be working or not, in very generous terms, and if it's worth spending a ton of time and effort and money to go forward with a larger trial.

This larger trial will be randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled, IRB approved, and statistically significant, and will yield data that we can publish in peer-reviewed journals. In other words, good science. We may or may not launch Indiegogo before or during this trial, just depending on what we are seeing. If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times: scientific integrity is paramount, and we will not take your money until convinced it will be effects. Trust me, our standard of evidence is higher than yours. "

----------


## serenemoon

> I am sure this has been posted before, but let's see what these people that you are so quick to call "scammers" look like, eh?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mo3F-Dgx0Q  - They touch on hair growth here.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVWlSAKsmVQ
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3-Nv4T6KRg
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPadjhuJonc
> ...


 Also, Dr. Hsu discussing the patch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QolNj_Diebg
Peep the ROGAINE in that video  :Smile:

----------


## nameless

> But that's what follicept claims that they have a product that can deliver molecules without going systematic and thus no sides.


 That is not exactly what Follicept is saying.

----------


## nameless

> This guy is trying to make a buck out of desperate naive baldies like you,  just like all the other scammers we (well you not)  have seen here the last few years. Don't confuse that with a cure


 For crying out loud can we please wait till some before and after pics before coming to conclusions?

----------


## nameless

> If it works there's no reason for hair loss forums to exist anymore
> 
> But guess what the chances are? Arashi has already exposed other scams that were pushed in the past by a lot of the user praising follicept right now
> 
> Skeptics have a clean reputation. Sadly, there are no consequences for the other group that keeps pushing scams on hair loss forums


 LOL! It's a lot easier for skeptics to have a clean reputation because curing hair loss is extremely difficult and many many attempts have failed. So all a skeptic has to do is attack any new treatment and odds are heavily in his favor that he will be right. But just because a treatment fails does not necessarily prove that the treatment is a scam. A scam would mean that the person selling the treatment knows that the treatment does not work and he's trying to cheat people. I believe that the evidence indicates that there is virtually no chance of that with Follicept. It will either produce new hair or it will end up in the dustbin of failed hair loss treatments. But even if it fails there may be new information learnt from the effort.

----------


## nameless

> Also Arashi, if you would like, the United States has a beautiful feature. It is called the Federal Trade Commission. As said by Devon "Now scamming is a different issue. That's the FTC- Federal Trade Commission. They are responsible for punishing scammers, cracking down on false advertising, etc. if consumers are "harmed" (not in the medical sense, but scammed sense). They actually have more legal authority than the FDA. The FDA must get the Department of Justice to intervene from a legal standpoint if and when required."
> If you really think this is a scam, give the FTC a phone call. They'll probably laugh at you and send you back to your plebeian life.


 
Clion, Arishi is wrong about Follicept being a scam. And he's wrong to jump the gun and say the product doesn't work before it's even tested. But it's still in everyone's best interests to have some skepticism in the ranks. I understand that when Arishi uses terms like "scam" that offends Devon, but Devon is going to have to keep in mind that Arishi has seen a lot of scams and so he is understandably suspicious of any baldness cure. If Follicept's treatment proves to be a better mousetrap I guarantee that Arishi will pay Devon the highest compliment by spending his hard earned money to buy Devon's product. Hell, Swooping already said that if it works he'll kiss Devon.

----------


## BoSox

Follicept has a Facebook page, and I asked when they expect results. Was told a couple of weeks. I suggest you guys take a break until further news.

----------


## jamesst11

A scam?!? Enough already.  How could you even come to that conclusion?  I never studied hair biology specifically, but I personally worked in a molecular bio lab for years, have published papers, and have been a prof of this stuff for 2 years.  I don't say for any other purpose besides to show some respect for Devon's lab.  
      People in respected labs DO NOT dedicate years and years of their lives to earn PhD's, publish scientific findings and become respected professors and members of the scientific community in order to profit off of some snake oil.  Come off it! You already know that this lab is reputable, right? I have met and worked along side of hundreds of biology prof's and not a single one would risk their reputation for some potential scam product.  I COMPLETELY understand where you are coming from, more than you know, but Let it go.

----------


## serenemoon

Just watched this with Devon and Dr. Hsu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBiOUNM9Nx4

Respect level - 10^100000000000000000000000000000

What a beautiful mind Dr. Hsu has. His words are so enlightening. It is so much more than hair regrowth here. I am seriously impressed by your drive to serve and save people's lives, and actually do something to underserved populations. Much respect. You guys are far too good, far too passionate, far too down to earth to be insulted by these fools. But you have dealt with it beautifully. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ffc3878880.jpg

----------


## Betoce

Devon, thanks for trying help us!! :Wink:

----------


## follicept

> Also, Dr. Hsu discussing the patch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QolNj_Diebg
> Peep the ROGAINE in that video


 That is the very box we used to get the results and pics you see on the site! Still sitting there  :Smile:

----------


## follicept

> Clion, Arishi is wrong about Follicept being a scam. And he's wrong to jump the gun and say the product doesn't work before it's even tested. But it's still in everyone's best interests to have some skepticism in the ranks. I understand that when Arishi uses terms like "scam" that offends Devon, but Devon is going to have to keep in mind that Arishi has seen a lot of scams and so he is understandably suspicious of any baldness cure. If Follicept's treatment proves to be a better mousetrap I guarantee that Arishi will pay Devon the highest compliment by spending his hard earned money to buy Devon's product. Hell, Swooping already said that if it works he'll kiss Devon.


 I am 100% serious when I say that there will be an Indiegogo level/perk that you guys can contribute to for me to fly out and hand deliver a dose to swooping and get my kiss. No joke. It will be fun  :Smile:  He can kiss my former bald spot.

----------


## follicept

> Just watched this with Devon and Dr. Hsu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBiOUNM9Nx4
> 
> Respect level - 10^100000000000000000000000000000
> 
> What a beautiful mind Dr. Hsu has. His words are so enlightening. It is so much more than hair regrowth here. I am seriously impressed by your drive to serve and save people's lives, and actually do something to underserved populations. Much respect. You guys are far too good, far too passionate, far too down to earth to be insulted by these fools. But you have dealt with it beautifully. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ffc3878880.jpg


 Thanks for that! That really means a lot to us. He is truly an amazing individual, and worth my sticking through these tough times with him. I could be off doing quite well for myself- I turned down some pretty handsome offers with fortune 500 companies to do this. My defense of who we are and what we're doing on this forum has not been for approval only. I was just trying to convey our hearts and sincerity. Your, or anyone's opinion is not why we do this but for the patient populations we serve- insulin, AGA, future vaccines, etc. This is why we exist. Like I said, once we clear the hurdle, I will let you know what we had to do to make all this happen.  :Smile: 

And I was serious- anyone in Cincinatti? Flying out tomorrow. Let's grab a beer.

----------


## stayhopeful

you people calling Follicept a scam are truly despicable.  It's actually just like 2 or 3 people lol.  It may or may not work.  One thing is for sure.  There is absolutely zero justification to be using the word scam so loosely.  They are not selling anything yet.  They are waiting to show us results.  One thing to be skeptical, another to be aggressively and unjustifiably derogatory.  ya'll need to hold your horses till we see some results

----------


## thejack

you can also check out the team on linkedin

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Hi Devon, 

I'm French and i registered here just for you and your futur product. I really appreciate your interventions here. Please apologize those who insult you without any proof. We need your posts and the majority here don't want you to leave this forum. Please stay with us. You gave us an hope. I verified all you have done with your team since you start to have a print on the web. I have a master's degree in international management. My job is similar with yours. I saw your structure. I know that you are really serious. 

I have two questions very direct for you:
- On your website, we can see a comparison with Rogaine. Do you think (i know you have not yet tested it on humans, but i want your personnal opinion) that the results could be a lot more efficient than Rogaine? Cause Rogaine, for me, give very very small results for AAG. If your product is comparable to Rogaine without side effects, i think we will be very disapointed.

- To extend this question. Do you think (your opinion of non-scientist) that a person who use Follicept can recover at least 30% of his lost hair (if we consider that it will work on 70-80% of people like antibiotics) ?

I know that my questions are very direct, but you created an hope. I sincerly think that you are in a good way. But we need to know if it can be spectacular or just a product which give small results like Rogaine. I decided to wait your product before thinking about FUE. For me, your answers are very important to take a decision. 

Thank you in advance for your answer.
PS: Please excuse my poor english. 
PS2: There is a thread opened on a french forum about Follicept (Doctissimo). There are 37 pages. People are so excited. Keep in mind that in Europe we are waiting a solution like americans and we have the same purchasing power (maybe more, Rogaine is more expensive for us). If you want i can translate your website in french or spanish graciously and help you on the web for Europe. But don't forget us.  :Smile:

----------


## Jonathan

> PS2: There is a thread opened on a french forum about Follicept (Doctissimo). There are 37 pages. People are so excited. Keep in mind that in Europe we are waiting a solution like americans and we have the same purchasing power (maybe more, Rogaine is more expensive for us). If you want i can translate your website in french or spanish graciously and help you on the web for Europe. But don't forget us.


 I am active on hair-loss forums in Sweden and can inform that the interest is very big and positive in Scandinavia too. I can understand if this global attention is a little stressful for you Devon. Just remember that we are hundreds of thousands men and woman out there supporting you and hoping for the best. Even if it will not work exactly as expected we thank you for trying and being as open and honest as you have been. Don't let the 2-3 naysayers on this forum affect your mood, just because they make the most noise.  

Keep up the good work, the next coming weeks/months will be very exciting!

----------


## Keki

> - On your website, we can see a comparison with Rogaine. Do you think (i know you have not yet tested it on humans, but i want your personnal opinion) that the results could be a lot more efficient than Rogaine? Cause Rogaine, for me, give very very small results for AAG. If your product is comparable to Rogaine without side effects, i think we will be very disapointed.
> 
> -


 Dude if is effective as rogaine it will be almost a gold standard for the hairloss treatment, right now nothing is effective as rogaine as thickening and give us new hairs, sadly you are in the minority minox didn't work, but it doesn't mean that it's useless or that follicpet will not be effective on you anyway ( but first we need to know it work on human)

----------


## FrenchNewbie

I never used any product. I just read some studies and it's not great. Combination Minox+Finasterid has more impact. But we need a revolution, not a new placebo with small effects.

----------


## diffuseloser

I had some very minor regrowth with minox, but you hit a wall after so long and it doesn't really work in the long run. My hair is worse off now than when I started using Minoxidil. It's pretty much pointless unless you're also on fin. The only use I have for it now is as a vehicle for RU. If Follicept can at least stabilise further loss, I'd be content. I'm really hoping it will work and that not only can it stop hair loss but induce some regrowth too. If I could boost my hair by about 30%, I'd be reasonably happy. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't work. I'm prepared for that and we will just have to carry on.

----------


## noisette

> I am 100% serious when I say that there will be an Indiegogo level/perk that you guys can contribute to for me to fly out and hand deliver a dose to swooping and get my kiss. No joke. It will be fun  He can kiss my former bald spot.


 Come on Swooping !

----------


## Swooping

> I am 100% serious when I say that there will be an Indiegogo level/perk that you guys can contribute to for me to fly out and hand deliver a dose to swooping and get my kiss. No joke. It will be fun  He can kiss my former bald spot.


 Actually, I'll fly you over to Amsterdam then on my costs & everything included and kiss your former bald spot. 100% serious, only if it really works. Very highly doubt this scenario will happen but we'll see!

----------


## Jagger

> I am 100% serious when I say that there will be an Indiegogo level/perk that you guys can contribute to for me to fly out and hand deliver a dose to swooping and get my kiss. No joke. It will be fun  He can kiss my former bald spot.


 If he won't do it, I will.

----------


## noisette

Perhaps Artista ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## follicept

> Actually, I'll fly you over to Amsterdam then on my costs & everything included and kiss your former bald spot. 100% serious, only if it really works. Very highly doubt this scenario will happen but we'll see!


 I am too! Of course, only if this works!

----------


## follicept

> Actually, I'll fly you over to Amsterdam then on my costs & everything included and kiss your former bald spot. 100% serious, only if it really works. Very highly doubt this scenario will happen but we'll see!


 Nameless, another contract for you!

----------


## follicept

> I am active on hair-loss forums in Sweden and can inform that the interest is very big and positive in Scandinavia too. I can understand if this global attention is a little stressful for you Devon. Just remember that we are hundreds of thousands men and woman out there supporting you and hoping for the best. Even if it will not work exactly as expected we thank you for trying and being as open and honest as you have been. Don't let the 2-3 naysayers on this forum affect your mood, just because they make the most noise.  
> 
> Keep up the good work, the next coming weeks/months will be very exciting!


 Thanks! I can't wait to visit Sweden, high on my list!! No stress man, I got this.  :Smile:  I have achieved the impossible several times in my life, and well used to naysayers. Looking forward to it!

Maybe we will do a couple of launch parties in Europe if we raise enough on Indiegogo- one in Amsterdam, one in France, one in Scandinavia, or something where I bring all the samples and we all meet up and start the treatment together and have some fun!

Dreaming a little here, but why not?

----------


## nameless

Or maybe Arishi.

----------


## clandestine

_*Watches intently from the sidelines._

----------


## stayhopeful

> Thanks for that! That really means a lot to us. He is truly an amazing individual, and worth my sticking through these tough times with him. I could be off doing quite well for myself- I turned down some pretty handsome offers with fortune 500 companies to do this. My defense of who we are and what we're doing on this forum has not been for approval only. I was just trying to convey our hearts and sincerity. Your, or anyone's opinion is not why we do this but for the patient populations we serve- insulin, AGA, future vaccines, etc. This is why we exist. Like I said, once we clear the hurdle, I will let you know what we had to do to make all this happen. 
> 
> And I was serious- anyone in Cincinatti? Flying out tomorrow. Let's grab a beer.


  you have many beers/drinks waiting for you here in So Cal if you ever come out... and if Follicept works.. you have drinks + A LOT more waiting out here for you lol

----------


## cr1mson

> Thanks for that! That really means a lot to us. He is truly an amazing individual, and worth my sticking through these tough times with him. I could be off doing quite well for myself- I turned down some pretty handsome offers with fortune 500 companies to do this. My defense of who we are and what we're doing on this forum has not been for approval only. I was just trying to convey our hearts and sincerity. Your, or anyone's opinion is not why we do this but for the patient populations we serve- insulin, AGA, future vaccines, etc. This is why we exist. Like I said, once we clear the hurdle, I will let you know what we had to do to make all this happen. 
> 
> And I was serious- anyone in Cincinatti? Flying out tomorrow. Let's grab a beer.


 +1 if your in Toronto. Hair-loss related topics aside, would love to chat with you as you are entrepreneurial and business savvy. Don't forget your canadian brothers!

----------


## GSD

follicept is our last hope in the near future  :Smile: . greetings from germany  :Smile: 
my hypothetical question:

 follicept prove its effectiveness.  it would be a big hype about it in the world.  im pretty sure that the result will be a big supply issue. 
how do you think about this?


sorry for my bad english skills

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> Maybe we will do a couple of launch parties in Europe if we raise enough on Indiegogo- one in Amsterdam, one *in France*, one in Scandinavia, or something where I bring all the samples and we all meet up and start the treatment together and have some fun!
> 
> Dreaming a little here, but why not?


 I could exchange the Eiffel Tower against a pack of bottle of Follicept if i can recover 50% of my hair.  :Cool:  I could give you the Louvres against 100% of my hair lost.  :Cool: 

Eiffel Tower in Florida... you can do it Devon!

----------


## kantian

> follicept is our last hope in the near future . greetings from germany 
> my hypothetical question:
> 
>  follicept prove its effectiveness.  it would be a big hype about it in the world.  im pretty sure that the result will be a big supply issue. 
> how do you think about this?
> 
> 
> sorry for my bad english skills


 If for regulatory reasons, They can't ship Follicept to Europe, I will help in ordering it and shipping it to our European friends myself. Of course, we should wait until we find out if this even works first.

----------


## grayfoxxx

> If for regulatory reasons, They can't ship Follicept to Europe, I will help in ordering it and shipping it to our European friends myself. Of course, we should wait until we find out if this even works first.


 This post touched me emotionally. 
Wether Follicept will work or not thanks for even writing this.

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## Keki

http://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/c...n/index_en.htm

this is the regulation, prometheon must notify the cosmetic and then they can began to ship, but they need some base to europe in order to sell and avoid customs, honestly if it works will not be a problem we will have hundreads of people here ready to help

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## FrenchNewbie

With Shipito.com we can have a US adress and they send the item in France (with a small risk with customs). I think it work in all Europe. It will cost a lot more. But i can't wait for this treatment. It can really change my life.

@Kantian Thank you for you friend kindness.

----------


## GerdHammels

I can set up a company in Berlin / Germany and handle some the EU distribution from here on. I just finished my Bachelors Degree and now im planing onto starting an Import / Export business, so i might as well help you guys to change the lives of hundreds of thousands if this stuff really works!

My major was law of international and european business transactons but have no clue about the regulations for cosmetics / medicine . i can look into that tho...

If this stuff is legit and the results are convincing, i'll shoot you a mail over your website and we talk business if you feel like it...

----------


## nameless

> Nameless, another contract for you!


 LOL!

I'll tell you again Devon, I only threw that BS about you "owing us" out there a few days ago as bait. The same as Swooping threw posts in the thread about believing Follicept will work, I threw stuff out there to see if I could trip you up. I know how hard that is to believe but it's actually true. I figured that if you were scamming you would at perhaps in a way that a scammers act and I would perceive that and make an issue of it. Or the bait would open up possibilities I could explore further to sniff out any evidence of scamming. 

I'm sorry, but it's true. The same as you tell us that you have gone through a lot of trouble regarding your potential hair loss treatment, we have seen a lot of scams and frauds and some look for evidence of scamming.  

You have to understand that many many scammers have told bald people nice things out of one side of their mouths while they were tried to cheat us out of the other side of their mouth. I do NOT trust anyone in the baldness-cure business.

I even warned you at one point that I was "keeping score" on Follicept and that should tell you that I was looking for any proof I could find to flush out any scam intentions on the part of Follicept. In a way I'm like Arishi in that I will do whatever I have to do to expose what I think are bald cheats; except I'm smarter, more polite, more reasonable, more fair, and more thoughtful than Arishi.

Finally, I see not one shred of evidence that you're a scammer. I firmly believe that if your treatment doesn't work it won't have anything to do with any scamming. It will simply be that the treatment isn't able to reverse hair loss. Nothing more.

----------


## Arashi

I actually took the time to read through the whole topic, it's quite entertaining indeed  :Smile:  Just a quick summary:

* Although this company supposedly can not only cure hairloss, but has a superior vehicle that could be applied to tons of meds and thus must be literally worth billions, they couldnt convince any investors to put money into it, even in a climate of negative interest and all time highs in the stock market (the best possible environment to attract investors)
* Dr Hsu, the driving force behind this, put this product out there for sale: http://www.amazon.com/Camellix-ReviT.../dp/B00ESZBNJA Haven't tested it but looks like a typical scam product to me
* Several people insist dr Hsu graduated at Harvard but his LinkedIn only says he was a physician at a hospital associated with Harvard: https://www.linkedin.com/pub/stephen-hsu/37/9b5/776
* They don't want the FDA to oversee their trial.
* Tons of new accounts, that appeared since only a few months, keep pumping the product and keep throwing personal attacks at anyone who even dares to challenge it.

It all really looks like a huge scam to me. But I know, we've been down that road, people like me call it a scam, other people will throw in insults at those people and we'll be along 100 pages more of fighting in this thread without any progress. So I thought, how can we make this thread useful and actually get somewhere. And then I read this comment from Swooping: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post201869

I think this really is a wonderful way. Look, if Follicept is honest and really believes in their product and REALLY only wants to sell it when it works, then they must be interested in convincing as much people as possible. Of course they can run their own trials, that no one oversees, but how can we know they didnt cheat ? We simply can't, no one oversees their trial, they could post anything they like.

So, the BEST and ONLY way (besides FDA overseen trials) to convince even the biggest doubters (like me and Swooping) is Swooping's idea. We select 10 TBT users, who have been visiting this forum for years, who are neutral and who we can trust. No, not me, not Swooping nor those 'new' accounts here, just other long term users we all agree we can trust. Devon sends out his product to them and they agree to put it onto their scalp for one month and document their progress.

This really is a common goal: if follicept really wants to prove that the doubters are wrong, then this simply is THE best way to do that ! If follicept comes up with some BS reason why they won't do it, we all know it's because they can't control the situation and thus can't cheat and ergo, we can all agree it's a scam.

What do you say Devon ?

----------


## noisette

This is not the same Dr Hsu for the shampoo !! you will find this !

----------


## serenemoon

> * Dr Hsu, the driving force behind this, put this product out there for sale: http://www.amazon.com/Camellix-ReviT.../dp/B00ESZBNJA Haven't tested it but looks like a typical scam product to me


 Yup, this has been covered wayyy before. NOT THE SAME DR. HSU  :Smile:

----------


## Arashi

> This is not the same Dr Hsu for the shampoo !! you will find this !


 In that case I would stand corrected on that point. Someone posted this and it's indeed the same name, but I haven't verified. How do you know it's not him ?

----------


## noisette

Arashi this is him : www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk48j7s8gwQ 
It's NOT the same DOCTOR.

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi this is him : www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk48j7s8gwQ 
> It's NOT the same DOCTOR.


 Agreed there, this guy doesnt look like him. I stand corrected there !

Anyway awaiting an answer from Devon about the idea to do a small trial among forum users !

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## noisette

Look at the vid, you can see the product at 2 minute. And DR HSU Stephen. But this is not the same guy lol

----------


## serenemoon

> I
> * They don't want the FDA to oversee their trial.


 How did you get the idea that they don't WANT the FDA to oversee the trial? They are doing a trial even though the FDA does not require them to perform a trial. Should they force the FDA, drag them by the balls and say "yo, oversee our trials even though you guys told us that we can go straight to market without trials?"

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## noisette

Arashi : http://openventio.org/DiabetesResear...nIHongHsu.html

----------


## Arashi

> How did you get the idea that they don't WANT the FDA to oversee the trial? They are doing a trial even though the FDA does not require them to perform a trial. Should they force the FDA, drag them by the balls and say "yo, oversee our trials even though you guys told us that we can go straight to market without trials?"


 They sell a cosmetic product, they can claim basically anything and then post with small letters "These statements weren't verified by the FDA". It's what happens with those hundreds of scam cosmetic products out there which supposedly grow hair, clear wrinkles, make you look 10 years younger etc.

So, if the FDA doesnt supervise, how they we know they won't cheat ? The only way would be such a small trial. I can't think of a valid reason why they wouldnt do that. It's in  EVERYBODY's interest here: in our interest, to find out the truth and in their interest, to convince the world. It's a win-win (if follicept aren't scammers)

----------


## serenemoon

> They sell a cosmetic product, they can claim basically anything and then post with small letters "These statements weren't verified by the FDA". It's what happens with those hundreds of scam cosmetic products out there which supposedly grow hair, clear wrinkles, make you look 10 years younger etc.
> 
> So, if the FDA doesnt supervise, how they we know they won't cheat ? The only way would be such a small trial. I can't think of a valid reason why they wouldnt do that. It's in  EVERYBODY's interest here: in our interest, to find out the truth and in their interest, to convince the world. It's a win-win (if follicept aren't scammers)


 I hear you on the fact that those cosmetic claims can't be verified. Trust me, I get it. But do you see how it may be a bit unfair to say that they don't "want" the FDA to oversee their trials? It is almost like saying that they are specifically pushing the FDA away from checking Follicept trials. It is more like, the FDA just doesn't care to.

----------


## Arashi

> I hear you on the fact that those cosmetic claims can't be verified. Trust me, I get it. But do you see how it may be a bit unfair to say that they don't "want" the FDA to oversee their trials? It is almost like saying that they are specifically pushing the FDA away from checking Follicept trials. It is more like, the FDA just doesn't care to.


 I guess you have a point, maybe it's not fair to say they don't WANT it. But it most definitely doesn't speak in their favour or makes their product credible.

Look it's really simple: do that 10 person forum trial and even the biggest doubters here will shut up and empty their pockets for their product ! win-win for everybody !

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I hear you on the fact that those cosmetic claims can't be verified. Trust me, I get it. But do you see how it may be a bit unfair to say that they don't "want" the FDA to oversee their trials? It is almost like saying that they are specifically pushing the FDA away from checking Follicept trials. It is more like, the FDA just doesn't care to.


 The funny thing is the high bar set by the FDA has killed so many potential upgrades to fin and minox that it's dizzying. Lots of conversation about other chemicals have happened.... and not gone past conversations... because somebody inevitably reminds the discussion participants that they don't have $500M to get past the FDA trials. Boom Done. And so, here we are in 2015.

All of that said, let's be thankful that follicept can get by the FDA and test this stuff. Of course that means that we have to be extra skeptical and keen-- but we all know that. I'm fairly certain everyone understands that follicept has not demonstrated anything yet--- even follicept confirmed this. What I am getting at is:

1. Lets be thankful this doesn't need the fda was formed in 1906 when scammers could only be caught as fast as a horse could get to the next town to warn the citizens of the traveling snake oil salesman. While still relevant, the FDA isn't the greatest thing in the entire world and is pretty outdated in its processes.

2. We are all on the same page as far as the need for follicept to provide evidence of effectiveness. There isn't really a need to say "the need to show proof" over and over and over and over. And there is definitely no need to call them scammers at this point

----------


## hellouser

> Look it's really simple: do that 10 person forum trial and even the biggest doubters here will shut up and empty their pockets for their product ! win-win for everybody !


 Give the stuff to me since I'm the only one competent when it comes to documenting progress.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Agreed there, this guy doesnt look like him. I stand corrected there !
> 
> Anyway awaiting an answer from Devon about the idea to do a small trial among forum users !


 small trials among forum users NEVER WORK. Never. People take bad photos. Or just disappear. Plus, we'll find out pretty quick if it is a scam after the indiegogo.

----------


## tf2legend

> They sell a cosmetic product, they can claim basically anything and then post with small letters "These statements weren't verified by the FDA". It's what happens with those hundreds of scam cosmetic products out there which supposedly grow hair, clear wrinkles, make you look 10 years younger etc.
> 
> So, if the FDA doesnt supervise, how they we know they won't cheat ? The only way would be such a small trial. I can't think of a valid reason why they wouldnt do that. It's in  EVERYBODY's interest here: in our interest, to find out the truth and in their interest, to convince the world. It's a win-win (if follicept aren't scammers)


 They can do their own independent testing. If they see that its effective, they can provide a small batch to the community here and we can vouch for it.

----------


## nameless

> They sell a cosmetic product, they can claim basically anything and then post with small letters "These statements weren't verified by the FDA". It's what happens with those hundreds of scam cosmetic products out there which supposedly grow hair, clear wrinkles, make you look 10 years younger etc.
> 
> So, if the FDA doesnt supervise, how they we know they won't cheat ? The only way would be such a small trial. I can't think of a valid reason why they wouldnt do that. It's in  EVERYBODY's interest here: in our interest, to find out the truth and in their interest, to convince the world. It's a win-win (if follicept aren't scammers)


 Arishi they submitted their application to the FDA and the FDA said Follicept does not have to do clinical trials. It's like your faulting Follicept because the FDA said Follicept does not have to do clinical trials. What do you want Follicept to do - send a letter to the FDA demanding that the FDA order Follicept to do standard FDA clinical trials?

They did say they are going to do a small trial *if" their convenience trial shows positive results. They have already agreed to what you are demanding.

----------


## nameless

> I guess you have a point, maybe it's not fair to say they don't WANT it. But it most definitely doesn't speak in their favour or makes their product credible.
> 
> Look it's really simple: do that 10 person forum trial and even the biggest doubters here will shut up and empty their pockets for their product ! win-win for everybody !


 But you're wrong Arishi...it does speak somewhat in their favor because they did submit an application to the FDA fully expecting that the FDA would order FDA trials. So that does speak somewhat to the issue of Follicept's intent. They initially intended to do some initial trial (at least) to establish some efficacy (if the treatment works) and then probably sell it to big pharma if it did work in 1 early test. So if you look at the fact that they applied to FDA to do clinical trials that does speak in their favor.

----------


## nameless

> small trials among forum users NEVER WORK. Never. People take bad photos. Or just disappear. Plus, we'll find out pretty quick if it is a scam after the indiegogo.


 I think we should all agree to stop using the word scam. Follicept is not a scam even if it doesn't grow hair. Follicept is not trying to trick anybody.

----------


## serenemoon

> All of that said, let's be thankful that follicept can get by the FDA and test this stuff. Of course that means that we have to be extra skeptical and keen-- but we all know that. I'm fairly certain everyone understands that follicept has not demonstrated anything yet--- even follicept confirmed this. What I am getting at is:
> 
> 1. Lets be thankful this doesn't need the fda was formed in 1906 when scammers could only be caught as fast as a horse could get to the next town to warn the citizens of the traveling snake oil salesman. While still relevant, the FDA isn't the greatest thing in the entire world and is pretty outdated in its processes.


 Seriously, I am so thankful that I don't have to wait 5 to 10 years for a potentially effective product. My hair would be GONE by then, and so will be most of my youth. Of course we don't know it will work, but it is nice that we will have an answer soon.  :Smile:

----------


## Arashi

> small trials among forum users NEVER WORK. Never. People take bad photos. Or just disappear. Plus, we'll find out pretty quick if it is a scam after the indiegogo.


 Hellouser is a pro photographer, a trusted forum member and he's been around and will be around for a while (unless this really works of course, then there's no more need for hair loss fora LOL)  :Wink:  And I'm sure there are more like him, I can think of gc83uk for example who's not only proven sincere but also a good photographer.

This is THE way to prove it works. I don't care about any testing they do themselves, way too easy to manipulate. But a test here, that's a situation they can't control and thus can't cheat.

Devon said it themselves, they're a small company and really appreciate the help of forum users. Then why not seize this tremendous opportunity for them, to convince even the most doubtful members ?

----------


## serenemoon

I do also think, though, that is it is IMPERATIVE that we learn to distinguish the difference between a treatment and a cure. A treatment is something that you have to CONTINUE for well, pretty much forever in order to improve or maintain the situation. Examples of this would be- Minoxidil, Finasteride and if it works, Follicept. A cure is something that will completely get rid of the issue and you won't have to continue taking the medication/drug/whatever for a long period of time. AGA, based on what is available in the market for the general public at this moment in time, is incurable but simply treatable. The company has *NEVER* claimed to be able to "cure" hairloss, but rather come up with an effective regrowth* treatment* that will need to be continued for the forseeable future. Now how good of a regrowth treatment will it be is what we will see in the future.

----------


## Justinian

> Hellouser is a pro photographer, a trusted forum member and he's been around and will be around for a while (unless this really works of course, then there's no more need for hair loss fora LOL)  And I'm sure there are more like him, I can think of gc83uk for example who's not only proven sincere but also a good photographer.
> 
> This is THE way to prove it works. I don't care about any testing they do themselves, way too easy to manipulate. But a test here, that's a situation they can't control and thus can't cheat.
> 
> Devon said it themselves, they're a small company and really appreciate the help of forum users. Then why not seize this tremendous opportunity for them, to convince even the most doubtful members ?


 You can't run a legitimate trial with users on other hair loss meds or users just coming off them. That eliminates the majority of this board.

----------


## champpy

Devon,
Question for you, but Ill understand if you do not have the answer yet. 

If the product proves effective on humans, do you have any idea if it will loose its effect over time like minoxidil does?  Ive heard that minox can help with hair growth up to a certain point, like maybe a few years. Didn't know if IGF-1's potency would taper off  in time in the same way.

Thanks man! Safe travels this weekend

----------


## Illusion

> I actually took the time to read through the whole topic, it's quite entertaining indeed  Just a quick summary:
> 
> * Although this company supposedly can not only cure hairloss, but has a superior vehicle that could be applied to tons of meds and thus must be literally worth billions, they couldnt convince any investors to put money into it, even in a climate of negative interest and all time highs in the stock market (the best possible environment to attract investors)
> * Dr Hsu, the driving force behind this, put this product out there for sale: http://www.amazon.com/Camellix-ReviT.../dp/B00ESZBNJA Haven't tested it but looks like a typical scam product to me
> * Several people insist dr Hsu graduated at Harvard but his LinkedIn only says he was a physician at a hospital associated with Harvard: https://www.linkedin.com/pub/stephen-hsu/37/9b5/776
> * They don't want the FDA to oversee their trial.
> * Tons of new accounts, that appeared since only a few months, keep pumping the product and keep throwing personal attacks at anyone who even dares to challenge it.
> 
> It all really looks like a huge scam to me. But I know, we've been down that road, people like me call it a scam, other people will throw in insults at those people and we'll be along 100 pages more of fighting in this thread without any progress. So I thought, how can we make this thread useful and actually get somewhere. And then I read this comment from Swooping: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post201869
> ...


 
Don't know if anyone has responded to this yet but this obv never works. Even when this is being done by very trustworthy and objective forum members who also happen to make great photos for comparison, it still won't work because almost everyone on this forum uses at least something. It would be hard to determine whether results would be thanks to follicept or thanks to other treatments.

In order to do this, we would need members who haven't used anything for a long time (6 - 12 months is about right I think). Nobody is going to stop their current regime for a long time to try out some cosmetic hair growth product. Besides, this would take a long time anyway before they could even begin with this mini trial.

I get the idea of doing a mini trial to see whether it's legit or not but due to circumstances I think it's close to impossible to do such a trial in a way where we can safely conclude the results are purely due to follicept

----------


## stayhopeful

I believe I am a trustworthy member, I have never taken any hairloss medication or treatments, and I would be willing to trial Follicept.  Really am counting on Follicept to save me here, can't tell you how badly I need some hairline relief.

----------


## Keki

Arashi again proves he don't understand nothing at all and read about 1/10 of the thread

Ignoring the usual scam accusation, i just want to point out we should be glad this is a cosmetic and they don't need fda trial, otherwise they would need millions and years, something they could do only for their topicon and only after massive investment by another pharma, if we have a 1% chance this works is only because of that, and if fda could states only the safety of a treatment and not force every time an extensive 3 phase trial with hundread or thousands people involved we could have a cure or at least lot of other treatments for hairloss then we have now, imagine if we could alredy try cb or bim, at least 1/3 of us could drop propecia and minox without spending 2k/month like now if you want decent %

I trust only helluser in the community, but he is using almost every possible thing in his head so in a honest real trial he cannot be usefull, he is at his plateau and he is only 1 the treatment could work but not on him, we need at least 15-20 people who never used anything in their nw2-3, someone like me for example but american and near prometheon and it's very hard to find them here where everyone is using something, so we are forced to trust devon in his "unofficial trial", i think there are some users who contacted him so maybe we have someone in the community directly involved, if you don't trust them you could wait for the second trial with publications, then you can trust people pics who bought follicept at this point, and if still after this hundreads of pics and tricoscan still think it's a scam you should leave the forum and call a psychologist to work on your faith in humanity because we are talking about dunno 100$ of product, i never scrutinized a 100$ thing so much in my life, if they posted hundreads of fake pics with hundreads of fake account in order to sell 20-30k follicept before being busted then they totally deserve it, but you understand this is reality and this will never happen

----------


## Jonathan

I trust Devon and Prometheon 100%. I will not have any doubts regarding the mini trial they have said that they will conduct. Devon also said that he might put up a Youtube video of his own progress using Follicept. Stop being so paranoid. I know that the community has been cheated many times but if you cant tell the difference between a Dr Nigam and a legit company like Prometheon there is no use debating anything.

----------


## NOhairNOlife

> Agreed there, this guy doesnt look like him. I stand corrected there !
> 
> Anyway awaiting an answer from Devon about the idea to do a small trial among forum users !


 


> I guess you have a point, maybe it's not fair to say they don't WANT it. But it most definitely doesn't speak in their favour or makes their product credible.
> 
> Look it's really simple: do that 10 person forum trial and even the biggest doubters here will shut up and empty their pockets for their product ! win-win for everybody !


 Arashi dude give it up already. You made 2 very strong allegations that were very wrong and misleading. You accused Dr. Hsu of being somebody else and you falsified the fact that follicept doesn't want FDA approval. So what I'm reading is that you are the scammer. 
So  save us the time and energy and stop posting your nonsense. 

P.s. the laser comb is FDA approved and that thing is the biggest crock of shit. Especially with the small amount of diodes.
p.s.s the FDA does not stop scammers. It only insures safety of a product (and possibly 'efficacy')

----------


## noisette

Hellouser is the good one for trying Follicept. And Desmond too ! Nobody else. I believe on Promotheon pharma. 
*Thank you very much to Devon for his HARD work and loyalty.*

----------


## Arashi

> Hellouser is the good one for trying Follicept. And Desmond too ! Nobody else. I believe on Promotheon pharma. 
> *Thank you very much to Devon for his HARD work and loyalty.*


 There are several others. GC83UK never has been on meds, he's very good at photo's. Feartheloss, maybe Artista, we could easily select at least 10 users without a problem. Maybe they're not all 10 pro photographers but with some dedication, they can all make usable photo's. 

Yet it's interesting to see how the fake accounts like "Keki" do all they can to get dumb excuses to not perform such independent forum test. They rather prefer a trial run by the company itself that nobody can oversee or check. They rather have photo's the company uploads, photo's that nobody can verify and have the company make statements that nobody can check. Yeah that makes a lot of sense from a consumer standpoint. LOL

Anyway, of course, do the company trial too at the same time, I don't care. But at least do such forum test at the same time too ! Not after the company test, but right now ! THAT would make even the biggest doubters believe ! And, if the company were legit, that would be in their best interest too !

----------


## noisette

I think that Devon can easily give a sample to Hellouser in order to try it. If it works on Hellouser, everybody will be happy and will support promotheon pharma all over the world !

----------


## Arashi

> I think that Devon can easily give a sample to Hellouser in order to try it. If it works on Hellouser, everybody will be happy and will support promotheon pharma all over the world !


 Hellouser would be one, but really, there are lots of trustworthy forum members, make the trial a little bit bigger, 1 user wouldnt say much, 10 a bit more, or heck, we can even select 20 long term forum users without a problem. Devon said they could make enough of their stuff for at least 4000 people right now. Why not then send it out to 10-20 long term forum users to try then?

Wouldnt it be 1000x times more effective to do that, then to come to this forum every day and try to convince us with just words, when they could just show it to us via a forum trial ? They said they were a small company, they said they appreciate all the help from forum users they can get. Well then, here we are ! What better way to help than to make the whole world believe ?

----------


## bananana

I could do it, I'm also (was) a pro photographer, and I believe I have some reputation here (at least time wise),
but I've started using fin 2 months ago.. And I'm a diffuse 2/3.

----------


## noisette

> Hellouser would be one, but really, there are lots of trustworthy forum members, make the trial a little bit bigger, 1 user wouldnt say much, 10 a bit more, or heck, we can even select 20 long term forum users without a problem. Devon said they could make enough of their stuff for at least 4000 people right now. Why not then send it out to 10-20 long term forum users to try then?


 Yes of course. Devon said that " Well said. Is an effective product not enough? We really would love to be able to offer stock, but the SEC makes that impossible. Sorry! " There are some regulations for the human test ? I don't know exactly what is it but, for one person this would be possible I think... That's why I presume Hellouser would be the one... Yes Artista, Desmond, You too (because I read your posts years ago...) etc... 

I believe sincerely on Devon, Follicept... DR Stephen Hsu's integrity... 
ps: you can see a vid here (but I'm sure you have already seen it  :Smile:  ) : www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVWlSAKsmVQ

----------


## Keki

I think the only way to test this thing would be someone completly out of minox and other topical, let's say this work the same or slightly better then minox, you have to stop minox for using follicept, so it may lead to minox shedding just after 1 month, maybe follicept can save some minox hairs but who know the interaction? It's a totally useless test, so people on ru which is not consistent and dangerous if follicept maximize absorption, maybe it will be better with people only on propecia, but even then some people swear to have this "propecia shedding" even if no scientific paper noticed this, and how to know if the hairgrowth is induced by propecia or by follicept?
So i personally will trust devon with his trial of "clean baseline" people i think there are some community users, after that they said they will begin to sell if they notice hairs activity and people can trust who they want anyway or never buy the product if skeptictal, but honstly this real vs fake proof is the last of our problem, that is something we can discuss after some results, we don't even know if this can grow a single hair and we are talking about community trial vs internal, it's a joke, this is a problem only for people who think devon is a scammer with shopped pics so dunno 1 every 50 user?

I only hope devon accepts 10 or more people int he unofficial one, otherwise will be almost useless, most treatment works only on half people or less

----------


## serenemoon

> I think the only way to test this thing would be someone completly out of minox and other topical, let's say this work the same or slightly better then minox, you have to stop minox for using follicept, so it may lead to minox shedding just after 1 month, maybe follicept can save some minox hairs but who know the interaction? It's a totally useless test, so people on ru which is not consistent and dangerous if follicept maximize absorption, maybe it will be better with people only on propecia, but even then some people swear to have this "propecia shedding" even if no scientific paper noticed this, and how to know if the hairgrowth is induced by propecia or by follicept?
> So i personally will trust devon with his trial of "clean baseline" people i think there are some community users, after that they said they will begin to sell if they notice hairs activity and people can trust who they want anyway or never buy the product if skeptictal, but honstly this real vs fake proof is the last of our problem, that is something we can discuss after some results, we don't even know if this can grow a single hair and we are talking about community trial vs internal, it's a joke, this is a problem only for people who think devon is a scammer with shopped pics so dunno 1 every 50 user?
> 
> I only hope devon accepts 10 or more people int he unofficial one, otherwise will be almost useless, most treatment works only on half people or less


 I also do hope however, that they will test on at least a small number of rogaine users interested in switching to follicept. They don't have to be included as a part of the "main data" trial when calculating hair growth improvements. I think it would just put a lot of rogaine users' minds at rest when it comes to dealing with shedding that comes after minoxidil. It would be nice to know if the hair that was being kept by minoxidil will be brought back by IGF-1 even after it sheds (if it sheds that is), and if it will help the patients go above the hair growth they had WHILE On minoxidil.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> Hellouser would be one, but really, there are lots of trustworthy forum members, make the trial a little bit bigger, 1 user wouldnt say much, 10 a bit more, or heck, we can even select 20 long term forum users without a problem. Devon said they could make enough of their stuff for at least 4000 people right now. Why not then send it out to 10-20 long term forum users to try then?
> 
> Wouldnt it be 1000x times more effective to do that, then to come to this forum every day and try to convince us with just words, when they could just show it to us via a forum trial ? They said they were a small company, they said they appreciate all the help from forum users they can get. Well then, here we are ! What better way to help than to make the whole world believe ?


 Please stop. You are spamming this topic without proof. You said Devon came without proof, but this your case too. You defame. I am new here, but if you continue Devon will leave this topic. I know that it's your wish. But the majority here wants him to stay.

----------


## GSD

In my opinion arashi dont deserve to test this product. Please be a man of honor and leave this thread.

----------


## Keki

We are all nw1 prometheon fake account, you know, better continue trash talk

----------


## follicept

> you have many beers/drinks waiting for you here in So Cal if you ever come out... and if Follicept works.. you have drinks + A LOT more waiting out here for you lol


 Haha roger that! I am in So Cal once a year or so- have some family in Rancho Palos Verdes and friends in Orange County...

----------


## follicept

> follicept is our last hope in the near future . greetings from germany 
> my hypothetical question:
> 
>  follicept prove its effectiveness.  it would be a big hype about it in the world.  im pretty sure that the result will be a big supply issue. 
> how do you think about this?
> 
> 
> sorry for my bad english skills


 Your English is great! Already working to avoid this. Current supplier can handle pretty significant output, and we have identified a few companies that get get supplying within 6-12 months, which is basically the purpose of the indiegogo. Sell a batch to the early adopters with current supply chain and use the profits to scale up.

----------


## follicept

> I could exchange the Eiffel Tower against a pack of bottle of Follicept if i can recover 50% of my hair.  I could give you the Louvres against 100% of my hair lost. 
> 
> Eiffel Tower in Florida... you can do it Devon!


 Hahaha deal!

----------


## follicept

> If for regulatory reasons, They can't ship Follicept to Europe, I will help in ordering it and shipping it to our European friends myself. Of course, we should wait until we find out if this even works first.


 Was waiting for someone to think of this! Hopefully we can do it and make it easy...

----------


## follicept

> I can set up a company in Berlin / Germany and handle some the EU distribution from here on. I just finished my Bachelors Degree and now im planing onto starting an Import / Export business, so i might as well help you guys to change the lives of hundreds of thousands if this stuff really works!
> 
> My major was law of international and european business transactons but have no clue about the regulations for cosmetics / medicine . i can look into that tho...
> 
> If this stuff is legit and the results are convincing, i'll shoot you a mail over your website and we talk business if you feel like it...


 Sounds good...we can definitely discuss.

----------


## follicept

> LOL!
> 
> I'll tell you again Devon, I only threw that BS about you "owing us" out there a few days ago as bait. The same as Swooping threw posts in the thread about believing Follicept will work, I threw stuff out there to see if I could trip you up. I know how hard that is to believe but it's actually true. I figured that if you were scamming you would at perhaps in a way that a scammers act and I would perceive that and make an issue of it. Or the bait would open up possibilities I could explore further to sniff out any evidence of scamming. 
> 
> I'm sorry, but it's true. The same as you tell us that you have gone through a lot of trouble regarding your potential hair loss treatment, we have seen a lot of scams and frauds and some look for evidence of scamming.  
> 
> You have to understand that many many scammers have told bald people nice things out of one side of their mouths while they were tried to cheat us out of the other side of their mouth. I do NOT trust anyone in the baldness-cure business.
> 
> I even warned you at one point that I was "keeping score" on Follicept and that should tell you that I was looking for any proof I could find to flush out any scam intentions on the part of Follicept. In a way I'm like Arishi in that I will do whatever I have to do to expose what I think are bald cheats; except I'm smarter, more polite, more reasonable, more fair, and more thoughtful than Arishi.
> ...


 Thanks for that. Totally fair and understandable, and definitely the case.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Can a moderator may intervene for Arashi? We all understood what he meant. So now stop. 

You can verify my IP adress. I'm in France. I'm not under a VPN. My Internet Service Provider is Free (one of the 3 biggest in France). You can verify it or ask Noisette (he is french). I'm not a fake. I came here after seeing the french topic on Follicept (40 pages today) on Doctissimo (the biggest french forum on health where Noisette is active). There is an other topic in France on International Hair Loss. 

I made some research about Promethon before coming here. They are very serious. You can go verify their campaign "No Prick". Health is not a joke for them. They do not deserve defamation from Arashi. 

Please excuse my english. But i can't let Arashi telling defamation. I want Devon staying here.

Translation in french if you want a proof that i'm not a fake: 

Est-ce qu'un modérateur pourrait intervenir pour Arashi? Nous avons tous compris ce qu'il voulait dire. Maintenant, merci de bien vouloir arrêter. 

Vous pouvez vérifier mon adresse IP. Je ne suis pas sous VPN. Mon FAI est Free (l'un des trois plus gros FAI français). Vous pouvez vérifier ou demander à Noisette (il est français). Je n'ai pas créé un compte fake. Je suis venu ici après avoir vu le topic Follicept (40 pages aujourd'hui) sur Doctissimo (le plus grand forum français sur la "santé", où Noisette est actif). Il y a un autre topic en France sur International Hair Loss. 

Merci de bien vouloir excuser mon anglais, mais je ne peux pas laisser Arashi diffamer. Je souhaite que Devon reste.

PS: Dédicace à Noisette. Je ne suis pas inscrit sur Doctissimo. Mais ça fait super plaisir de vous lire. Ca donne de l'espoir.  :Wink:

----------


## follicept

> I actually took the time to read through the whole topic, it's quite entertaining indeed  Just a quick summary:
> 
> * Although this company supposedly can not only cure hairloss, but has a superior vehicle that could be applied to tons of meds and thus must be literally worth billions, they couldnt convince any investors to put money into it, even in a climate of negative interest and all time highs in the stock market (the best possible environment to attract investors)
> * Dr Hsu, the driving force behind this, put this product out there for sale: http://www.amazon.com/Camellix-ReviT.../dp/B00ESZBNJA Haven't tested it but looks like a typical scam product to me
> * Several people insist dr Hsu graduated at Harvard but his LinkedIn only says he was a physician at a hospital associated with Harvard: https://www.linkedin.com/pub/stephen-hsu/37/9b5/776
> * They don't want the FDA to oversee their trial.
> * Tons of new accounts, that appeared since only a few months, keep pumping the product and keep throwing personal attacks at anyone who even dares to challenge it.
> 
> It all really looks like a huge scam to me. But I know, we've been down that road, people like me call it a scam, other people will throw in insults at those people and we'll be along 100 pages more of fighting in this thread without any progress. So I thought, how can we make this thread useful and actually get somewhere. And then I read this comment from Swooping: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post201869
> ...


 We have raised over $1M. We have won global business plan competitions. We are in discussion with several major pharma companies. These things just take time. And we have decided to do it the hard way and not go public because we don't want to be responsible to shareholders worried about quarterly performance and profits only when we are trying to change the world long term, and help people in disease areas that may not be profitable or big enough to be attractive like it needs to be to big pharma. You have no clue what it takes to build a business, or how long it takes. All about strategy and the long term. 

Different Dr. Hsu, as noted.

Our Dr. Hsu is Harvard trained. Degrees from Albert Enstein college at Yeshiva, fellowship/residency at Harvard/ MGH. 

Something to clear up on the FDA issue: as others have noted, and you seem satisfied, it's not that we don't want them, but we are happy we can go to market without the time and expense required for their extensive clinical trials. However, the FDA is in no way involved with us. There is/was no application, and no express decision from them. We are basically a homeopathic treatment given our concentrations and ingredients, and so are not involving the FDA. I don't want anyone to have the impression that the FDA gave a stamp either way. 

Again, these accounts are not ours. I have one account, this one. No time to praise myself in imperfect English (many of these users are European and quite fluent but some minor errors- much better than my French/German/etc.!). If you don't believe me, nothing I can do about that. Maybe ask the mod for IP addresses?

I am open to giving some users a sample, gotta talk with Dr. Hsu. I am not entirely sure that the very few very loud people like you would be convinced by any amount of evidence, no matter where it's coming from, so not sure how much it will truly help. 

If we run our trials, which we will publish and which will be replicable, and we are convinced of efficacy, we will launch indiegogo and get the product out for users to test and post results. If we turn out to be a scam as you accuse, we make off with a few thousand (which given the time I spend on here, would probably be less than minimum wage) and our reputations are destroyed forever, and our grander aspirations for our products are shot. Frankly, if we are convinced, we can release it without your individual approval. I understand your skepticism, and am not dismissing the idea, but as other users have noted, it doesn't really matter.

----------


## Arashi

> You can verify my IP adress. I'm in France.


 LOL, like an IP means something these days. I used VPN's or TOR network to stream content that's IP locked, anyone these days knows how to do that. Give me a country and I'll post from that IP.

Furthermore, 'so now stop'. Tell me: why would a consumer NOT want an independent forum test ? Give me 1 good reason why a forum test, among 20 long term forum users (some will be on meds, which they will have to state, that will also be an excellent indication to see if the combo has any impact, some will not be on meds) is a bad idea.

----------


## oppenheimer82

> I guess you have a point, maybe it's not fair to say they don't WANT it. But it most definitely doesn't speak in their favour or makes their product credible.
> 
> Look it's really simple: do that 10 person forum trial and even the biggest doubters here will shut up and empty their pockets for their product ! win-win for everybody !


 you know what, compatriot, i really like this idea. even that chinese guy, liu, who claimed chlorine dioxide could regrow hair, gave out free samples of his product to forum members to test them out. very good of you for bringing this up.

----------


## follicept

> They sell a cosmetic product, they can claim basically anything and then post with small letters "These statements weren't verified by the FDA". It's what happens with those hundreds of scam cosmetic products out there which supposedly grow hair, clear wrinkles, make you look 10 years younger etc.
> 
> So, if the FDA doesnt supervise, how they we know they won't cheat ? The only way would be such a small trial. I can't think of a valid reason why they wouldnt do that. It's in  EVERYBODY's interest here: in our interest, to find out the truth and in their interest, to convince the world. It's a win-win (if follicept aren't scammers)


 This is true. It's a benefit in the sense that we can get to market faster but obviously harder to prove efficacy, which is up to us and we will do. 

Oh, also, we just received a notice of allowance that our patent will be issued on the core transdermal technology. This should help our credibility with you and more importantly with investors and pharma partners...

----------


## follicept

> The funny thing is the high bar set by the FDA has killed so many potential upgrades to fin and minox that it's dizzying. Lots of conversation about other chemicals have happened.... and not gone past conversations... because somebody inevitably reminds the discussion participants that they don't have $500M to get past the FDA trials. Boom Done. And so, here we are in 2015.
> 
> All of that said, let's be thankful that follicept can get by the FDA and test this stuff. Of course that means that we have to be extra skeptical and keen-- but we all know that. I'm fairly certain everyone understands that follicept has not demonstrated anything yet--- even follicept confirmed this. What I am getting at is:
> 
> 1. Lets be thankful this doesn't need the fda was formed in 1906 when scammers could only be caught as fast as a horse could get to the next town to warn the citizens of the traveling snake oil salesman. While still relevant, the FDA isn't the greatest thing in the entire world and is pretty outdated in its processes.
> 
> 2. We are all on the same page as far as the need for follicept to provide evidence of effectiveness. There isn't really a need to say "the need to show proof" over and over and over and over. And there is definitely no need to call them scammers at this point


 Yes, the FDA has a very important mandate but can be quite slow to respond to innovation. They are working on it, but not there yet.

----------


## follicept

> Arishi they submitted their application to the FDA and the FDA said Follicept does not have to do clinical trials. It's like your faulting Follicept because the FDA said Follicept does not have to do clinical trials. What do you want Follicept to do - send a letter to the FDA demanding that the FDA order Follicept to do standard FDA clinical trials?
> 
> They did say they are going to do a small trial *if" their convenience trial shows positive results. They have already agreed to what you are demanding.


 I responded to Arashi but want to reiterate that the FDA did not and does not have an active role in this. They didn't guide us one way or another. We reviewed criteria and have determined we can market as a cosmetic. 

Yes, we will do a small but statistically significant trial under conditions that will allow us to publish data in respected peer-reviewed journals. 

My job is not to convince Arashi, or any of you for that matter. My job is to test efficacy and then help get an effective, safe product to market. The proof is in the pudding, not in Arashi's opinion.

----------


## noisette

> Can a moderator may intervene for Arashi? We all understood what he meant. So now stop. 
> 
> You can verify my IP adress. I'm in France. I'm not under a VPN. My Internet Service Provider is Free (one of the 3 biggest in France). You can verify it or ask Noisette (he is french). I'm not a fake. I came here after seeing the french topic on Follicept (40 pages today) on Doctissimo (the biggest french forum on health where Noisette is active). There is an other topic in France on International Hair Loss. 
> 
> I made some research about Promethon before coming here. They are very serious. You can go verify their campaign "No Prick". Health is not a joke for them. They do not deserve defamation from Arashi. 
> 
> Please excuse my english. But i can't let Arashi telling defamation. I want Devon staying here.


 Arashi wants to help us, our community. I understand him and I respect him. But We can't tell (now) that Follicept is a scam until there are results... Yes, perhaps a member of Baldtuthtalk can test it (or many members too)... BUT I'm not agree with him in so many points. 
Calling a product as a scam before there are some results and BEFORE they sell it  :Big Grin: 
This is not a Liu's product or a product from the DR HSU (the other one ^^) with his shampoo for hairloss 

Yes, Frenchnewby is a friend of mine of the French community (International Hairloss and Doctissimo). On forum doctissimo I am Ryuteam, and on the forum International Hair loss I am Noisette.

----------


## follicept

> Hellouser is a pro photographer, a trusted forum member and he's been around and will be around for a while (unless this really works of course, then there's no more need for hair loss fora LOL)  And I'm sure there are more like him, I can think of gc83uk for example who's not only proven sincere but also a good photographer.
> 
> This is THE way to prove it works. I don't care about any testing they do themselves, way too easy to manipulate. But a test here, that's a situation they can't control and thus can't cheat.
> 
> Devon said it themselves, they're a small company and really appreciate the help of forum users. Then why not seize this tremendous opportunity for them, to convince even the most doubtful members ?


 Like I said, open to it, will run it by Dr. Hsu.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> you know what, compatriot, i really like this idea. even that chinese guy, liu, who claimed chlorine dioxide could regrow hair, gave out free samples of his product to forum members to test them out. very good of you for bringing this up.


 yeah becuase that worked out so well...

Testing by forum member never works: Bad photos, people disappear, people dont follow complete protocol... etc etc

I'd rather just see what follicept comes up with. If there evidence doesn't seem fake, then I'd rather just buy the stuff and try it myself (as I'm sure others would). If it works, users can post results.... but I could really care less about forum members getting free trials. If it is snake oil, we'll know soon enough.

----------


## follicept

> Devon,
> Question for you, but Ill understand if you do not have the answer yet. 
> 
> If the product proves effective on humans, do you have any idea if it will loose its effect over time like minoxidil does?  Ive heard that minox can help with hair growth up to a certain point, like maybe a few years. Didn't know if IGF-1's potency would taper off  in time in the same way.
> 
> Thanks man! Safe travels this weekend


 Not really sure, obviously. Have some theories, and we suspect it could be effective for quite a while, but of course time will tell... Thanks!

----------


## follicept

> Don't know if anyone has responded to this yet but this obv never works. Even when this is being done by very trustworthy and objective forum members who also happen to make great photos for comparison, it still won't work because almost everyone on this forum uses at least something. It would be hard to determine whether results would be thanks to follicept or thanks to other treatments.
> 
> In order to do this, we would need members who haven't used anything for a long time (6 - 12 months is about right I think). Nobody is going to stop their current regime for a long time to try out some cosmetic hair growth product. Besides, this would take a long time anyway before they could even begin with this mini trial.
> 
> I get the idea of doing a mini trial to see whether it's legit or not but due to circumstances I think it's close to impossible to do such a trial in a way where we can safely conclude the results are purely due to follicept


 Agreed. Some will have issues believing us no matter where/how we test...

----------


## follicept

> I think that Devon can easily give a sample to Hellouser in order to try it. If it works on Hellouser, everybody will be happy and will support promotheon pharma all over the world !


 Will advise...is Hellouser US based?

----------


## serenemoon

> Arashi wants to help us, our community. I understand him and I respect him. But We can't tell (now) that Follicept is a scam until there are results... Yes, perhaps a member of Baldtuthtalk can test it (or many members too)... BUT I'm not agree with him in so many points. 
> Calling a product as a scam before there are some results and BEFORE they sell it 
> This is not a Liu's product or from the DR HSU (the other one ^^) with his shampoo for hairloss 
> 
> Yes, Frenchnewby is a friend of mine of the French community (International Hairloss and Doctissimo). On forum doctissimo I am Ryuteam, and on the forum International Hair loss I am Noisette.


 I am in the States, but I use google translate to read your forums. Have been so at least for the past two weeks or so. I like your forum, it is cool, very chill and funny  :Smile:  I remember your username ryuteam. You are awesome for relating all the info to the French community  :Smile:

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> LOL, like an IP means something these days. I used VPN's or TOR network to stream content that's IP locked, anyone these days knows how to do that. Give me a country and I'll post from that IP.
> 
> Furthermore, 'so now stop'. Tell me: why would a consumer NOT want an independent forum test ? Give me 1 good reason why a forum test, among 20 long term forum users (some will be on meds, which they will have to state, that will also be an excellent indication to see if the combo has any impact, some will not be on meds) is a bad idea.


 You can't use Free by a VPN. You have a server adress. And i translated in the best french my last post. So now you can ask Noisette. He will tell you if i'm french or not. And if a moderator want, i can give him all the proof that i really exist. 

I will not answer to your questions. I'm waiting like other members. You have to do the same thing.

Ps: @Noisette, je suis pas inscrit sur ces forums (doctissimo ou IHS). Ca me déprime plus qu'autre chose de les lire (j'y vais quand la déprime me guette lol). Je t'assure, je me suis inscris ici, parce qu'il y a vraiment un espoir cette fois je pense. Sinon, jamais je ne l'aurais fait. Je suis de ces gens qui ne préfèrent pas trop y penser.  :Wink:

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## follicept

> LOL, like an IP means something these days. I used VPN's or TOR network to stream content that's IP locked, anyone these days knows how to do that. Give me a country and I'll post from that IP.
> 
> Furthermore, 'so now stop'. Tell me: why would a consumer NOT want an independent forum test ? Give me 1 good reason why a forum test, among 20 long term forum users (some will be on meds, which they will have to state, that will also be an excellent indication to see if the combo has any impact, some will not be on meds) is a bad idea.


 So you're saying you're a scammer?

----------


## follicept

> I am in the States, but I use google translate to read your forums. Have been so at least for the past two weeks or so. I like your forum, it is cool, very chill and funny  I remember your username ryuteam. You are awesome for relating all the info to the French community


 +1

----------


## Arashi

> Calling a product as a scam before there are some results and BEFORE they sell it


 Noisette, you've been around a while, how many scammers have we seen on this forum since you opened your account ? We've seen Dr Nigam, Dr Gho, Yoram, that Colombian company (well they weren't here, but they were discussed), that guy with this chlorox crap and probably more. All turned out to be scammers.

I can understand someone might be offended when being called a scammer without 100% absolute proof. And in fact, I might be wrong, I cant be 100% sure neither until we've seen results. But should Devon really be offended ? If I was Devon and I had a REAL product, I'd be even more determined to prove my self right when people would call me a scammer ! And it would most definitely not be a reason to leave this forum.

Anyway, let's forget about all that, let's focus on everybody's COMMON goal: to determine if this product is for real. It's good for us, the potential buyers, and it's good for follicept. Win-win for everybody !

----------


## Arashi

Also, let's say it doesn't work. At least Follicept then showed that they weren't afraid to do some independent testing ! So they weren't scammers. Their product failed, but at least they tried and thus should be highly respected ! And I'll be the first to make my well meant apologies for having called them scammers !

On the other hand, if they don't want a test they can't control, then it makes them even more suspicious.

----------


## follicept

> Noisette, you've been around a while, how many scammers have we seen on this forum since you opened your account ? We've seen Dr Nigam, Dr Gho, Yoram, that Colombian company (well they weren't here, but they were discussed), that guy with this chlorox crap and probably more. All turned out to be scammers.
> 
> I can understand someone might be offended when being called a scammer without 100% absolute proof. And in fact, I might be wrong, I cant be 100% sure neither until we've seen results. But should Devon really be offended ? If I was Devon and I had a REAL product, I'd be even more determined to prove my self right when people would call me a scammer ! And it would most definitely not be a reason to leave this forum.
> 
> Anyway, let's forget about all that, let's focus on everybody's COMMON goal: to determine if this product is for real. It's good for us, the potential buyers, and it's good for follicept. Win-win for everybody !


 ...which is why I am still here. Though you can question efficacy without attacking my integrity. Skepticism is most effective with kindness- in any situation in life. Many users on here get that. Think of how the world might look if every single published paper/scientific advance was met with "this is a crock of crap get out of here you liar!". The scientific method was invented to reduce noise like yours (not your questions, which are valid). It is to say, interesting claim. Show me your results, tell me how you got them, and I will confirm your hypothesis. Which is what we will do.

----------


## noisette

> I am in the States, but I use google translate to read your forums. Have been so at least for the past two weeks or so. I like your forum, it is cool, very chill and funny  I remember your username ryuteam. You are awesome for relating all the info to the French community


 Hey ! A brother from States who reads our forum  :Smile:  It's very nice to learn that... There are some members on Doctissimo who are funny guys and pretty much friendly. 

Arashi, I'm agree with, this is why I understand you and I know well you want to help us. You have a point. But, remember when Aaron Gardner comes here, he is vanished like a fart in the wind. I don't want the same for Devon... Because we don't know yet, if it is a scam... 

I believe on their transdermal technology... Perhaps Devon can give samples for members here, in order to test it and confirm that it works. 

FrenchNewby, I'm thinking you are Marselo on Doctissimo... but you follow us, and that this is great  :Wink:

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Arashi, all is suspicious for you. You can take the speech of Devon negatively. But i think, in this case, that we have a serious lab with Prometheon. Go check their historic. I don't know the other Dr. you quote. I never used any product. But i can say that this doctor has some success with diabetes. And it's a proof (for me) that they are serious.

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## Arashi

> Arashi, all is suspicious for you. You can take the speech of Devon negatively. But i think, in this case, that we have a serious lab with Prometheon. Go check their historic. I don't know the other you quote. But i can say that this doctor has some success with diabetes. And it's a proof (for me) that they are serious.


 
Again, give me 1 good reason why we shouldnt do this test and I'll leave this thread, that's a promise to you  :Wink:

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## GSD

i also understand that arashi is a depressed bald guy who is very dissapointet. But claiming that someone is a scammer with no evidence is not fair. in europe this claim would  easily end in a lawsuit.

greetings from germany

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## noisette

> Again, give me 1 good reason why we shouldnt do this test and I'll leave this thread, that's a promise to you


 No, Nobody should leave this thread, we are all in the same boat (real members I say). Again, I'm agree with you. We should have a test of Follicept, here, for some members like Hell' or Desmond, Artista, Swooping too lol  :Wink:  (But Swooping have to kiss the bald spot of Devon for that )

----------


## Arashi

> No, Nobody should leave this thread, we are all in the same boat (real members I say). Again, I'm agree with you. We should have a test of Follicept, here, for some members like Hell' or Desmond, Artista, Swooping too lol  (But Swooping have to kiss the bald spot of Devon for that )


 Hehe thanks, but don't worry, there simply isnt a good reason NOT to perform it. Everybody these days owns a smartphone with at least 10 megapixels and modern lense, capable of shooting good photo's (I remember gc83uk who shot great photo's a few years ago with a really crappy phone, not even close to today's standards). People like Hellouser explained others before how to correctly shoot photo's. So that's not a problem. The meds, well we should select at least a group that's not on meds, but also others CAN be on meds, would be a great test for Follicept too, to find out the interaction and if it has any positive or negative effects. We'll get to see if this product is for real, Follicept gets to convince their audience. So it's really a win-win for everybody.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

1 good reason... I'm now NW3 or more (i'm 30 years old). And i can't wait. Cause now it's very hard for me psychologically. And before follicept, the only solution for me, was the FUE... 12000 euros. 50/100 euros to test Follicept without side effects and a hope that it will work or 12000 euros for a random result that i can't remove from my head... it's a very good reason for me to wait Devon. 

I will not use Minox... i don't want to be like Chewbaka. And i will never used Fina or Duta... you know why (i'm a man, i want to stay with my faculties). Follicept is a possible alternative. So now, you can leave this thread?

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## noisette

> Hehe thanks, but don't worry, there simply isnt a good reason NOT to perform it. Everybody these days owns a smartphone with at least 10 megapixels and modern lenses, capable of shooting good photo's. People like Hellouser explained others before how to correctly shoot photo's. So that's not a problem. The meds, well we should select at least a group that's not on meds, but also others CAN be on meds, would be a great test for Follicept too, to find out the interaction and if it has any positive or negative effects. So it's really a win-win for everybody.


 Yes this is a good thing for everybody  :Smile:  and if it works, we can all, together, support Devon and his team. All over the world. Because this is a small company from the University of Florida. And Hell' makes a good thread for RU, very well explain with great pics...

----------


## Arashi

> 1 good reason... I'm now NW3 or more (i'm 30 years old). And i can't wait. Cause now it's very hard for me psychologically. And before follicept, the only solution for me, was the FUE... 12000 euros. 50/100 euros to test Follicept without side effects and a hope that it will work or 12000 euros for a random result that i can't remove from my head... it's a very good reason for me to wait Devon. 
> 
> I will not you Minox... i don't want to be like Chewbaka. And i will never used Fina or Duta... you know why. Follicept is a possible alternative. So now, you can leave this thread?


 I already said: no newbie accounts, they can't be trusted, so you wouldnt even be considered to be included in the test.

No newbies, no people like me or Swooping who have been really critical. Only a group of 10-20 long term, neutral forum users that EVERYBODY can trust.

----------


## DerekM228

Running a trial with forum users is the worst business logic. Trials are meant to be administered. They wouldn't be able to administer anything, let's be real. 

For whom is it more important to learn that the product works -- Follicept or a skeptical forum user? C'mon, let them run their internal trials, determine efficacy, and then decide if they want to create an Indiegogo alongside a private first batch. Business 101.

Let them post pictures, results of the trial, etc. Then you can decide whether you want to buy it or not. If it looks good, I'm definitely buying it. You can continue to be skeptical if you'd like, but I'm all in if it looks good. I trust them.

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## FrenchNewbie

Who are you to say who can test it or not? This forum is not the only forum on this world...

Then, i can wait october. Not a problem at all. If it works, i will be patient.

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## Arashi

> Who are you to say who can test it or not? This forum is not the only forum on this world...
> 
> Then, i can wait october. Not a problem at all. If it works, i will be patient.


 It's just common sense man, nothing personal. Test persons we can't trust is bad for us, the potential buyers, cause we still dont know if it really works. And it's bad for follicept, cause they want to convince us. So to do the test in the most convincing way is in everybody's best interest. And yes, of course that would mean excluding people like me and Swooping and also all new accounts.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

You speak for you. Personnaly, if i see 20 good results on 30 photos that Dr. Hsu certify on his honnor of scientist that it's real, i will take it. 

If you want to wait 2 years to see 1000 results and say: "hum, ok, i will test, but it's not perfect", it's not my case. THEY ARE NO SIDE EFFECTS and i work to pay my bottle of follicept. I RISK NOTHING. But, when i see your avatar... If you made an hair transplant, i know why you don't want to test without seeing other transplanted men test it.

----------


## Hemo

> It's just common sense man, nothing personal. Test persons we can't trust is bad for us, the potential buyers, cause we still dont know if it really works. And it's bad for follicept, cause they want to convince us. So to do the test in the most convincing way is in everybody's best interest. And yes, of course that would mean excluding people like me and Swooping and also all new accounts.


 They can't just send samples out willy-nilly because it could be bad for business.  They're part of a university incubator, which means they have to follow testing protocols that are overseen by the IRB.  Anyone that's done research in an academic setting knows this.  I'm not positive on this, but I have a feeling Follicept's trials would fall under some sort of medical category even though they're cosmetic (likely less stringent than something like a new drug). Regardless, it doesn't make sense to send samples out if they want to monitor test subjects and observe the efficacy of the product firsthand.  Plus, in the unlikely event that Follicept caused adverse side effects, Prometheon could be in a world of hurt if they just sent samples out without testing it in a more controlled way first.  Even if they were legally protected, it could be a lot of bad press if their product caused issues due to reckless/uncontrolled testing.  It's a matter of control and liability, which you're clearly too dense to understand.

----------


## tom12345

> It's just common sense man, nothing personal. Test persons we can't trust is bad for us, the potential buyers, cause we still dont know if it really works. And it's bad for follicept, cause they want to convince us. So to do the test in the most convincing way is in everybody's best interest. And yes, of course that would mean excluding people like me and Swooping and also all new accounts.


 I think we all understand where you're coming from and what your opinion is. You don't need to go on and on and on about it. We get it. As far as testing goes, that would be up to the company. I mean, there's no telling whether it's even a possibility, so lets not get ahead of things. If it is a possibility, I'd love to participate, but am disqualified by the self-appointed forum president . Not a big deal since results could potentially be seen within weeks on those performing the tests, as opposed to 18 months of Finasteride or lifetimes of stupid scalp-exercises or whatever.

----------


## Arashi

> You speak for you. Personnaly, if i see 20 good results on 30 photos that Dr. Hsu certify on his honnor of scientist that it's real, i will take it.


 You already sound like you don't need to be convinced anyway. If the product is out, you'll buy it. But you're indeed not like everybody. It's so damn easy to come up with fake trial results if nobody oversees. Who knows the pictures they present weren't shot in reverse order (so the supposedly final result was actually the first photo shot). Who knows they didnt take the pictures from some doctor's database ? Who knows they didnt do a trial using Minox and tell us it was actually their product ? Come on man, wake up, I know you're a newby and haven't had much experience (and thus also dont know my profile photo was a photo Dr Nigam presented as proof, while it was clearly photoshopped) and you are pretty naive. But trust me, this forum is where scammers live, we've seen tons already. So we should be very wary of every new solution presented here.

This test like I proposed is a really great way to do that. And I'll leave it to that, not going to respond more to your personal attacks, it's cluttering the thread.

----------


## thejack

I am willing to volunteer, I will document strictly and am sound of mind unlike some haha. If not, no worries I am happy to wait I don't care

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## Arashi

> They can't just send samples out willy-nilly because it could be bad for business.  They're part of a university incubator, which means they have to follow testing protocols that are overseen by the IRB.


 No they're not. They already said they wanted to run a small test before doing a bigger test. So, there we go.





> Plus, in the unlikely event that Follicept caused adverse side effects, Prometheon could be in a world of hurt if they just sent samples out without testing it in a more controlled way first.


 No. That's why they market it as a cosmetic product. They dont have to test it ! They just need to print a clear disclaimer on the product and do a toxicity lab test, that's all.

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## Hemo

Arashi, the supplement industry is largely ignored by the FDA as well - you don't think companies lose lawsuits when their products make people very ill, or kill someone?  Fine print only goes so far.  Plus, their name would be ruined if things went awry.

You should be happy they're not going straight to market.  Don't you think if they were a scam they'd already be selling the product?  You see the amount of interest people have for the product; Follicept could make a good chunk by just selling the product now, but they're insisting on doing it the right way.  You clearly have blinders on.

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi, the supplement industry is largely ignored by the FDA as well - you don't think companies lose lawsuits when their products make people very ill, or kill someone?


 Read up on cosmetic product law (I once did). All they need to do is fill out some forms, make sure their product CAN be marketed as cosmetic product (there are some restrictions but Devon already checked that he said) and then do a toxicity lab test and they can sell it. They then obeyed the law. Good luck sueing them !

----------


## FrenchNewbie

This is a proof of serious for me: http://www.nopricks.com/ (and their are more proof on the web)

Speaking with the word "scammer" for these people... It's a shame. I can't say more.

----------


## Arashi

> This is a proof of serious for me: http://www.nopricks.com/ (and their are more proof on the web)
> 
> Speaking with the word "scammer" for these people... It's a shame. I can't say more.


 Do you want me to link a few bio companies that are even NASDAQ listed (or were) and took investors money without delivering even a single product that actually worked ? They all had professors and what's more working for them. That's no proof at all. A test like this, now that I'll trust ! Easy simple and effective.

Now, not going to respond anymore to you, you're clearly only interested in picking a fight and it's cluttering the thread.

----------


## follicept

> Hehe thanks, but don't worry, there simply isnt a good reason NOT to perform it. Everybody these days owns a smartphone with at least 10 megapixels and modern lense, capable of shooting good photo's (I remember gc83uk who shot great photo's a few years ago with a really crappy phone, not even close to today's standards). People like Hellouser explained others before how to correctly shoot photo's. So that's not a problem. The meds, well we should select at least a group that's not on meds, but also others CAN be on meds, would be a great test for Follicept too, to find out the interaction and if it has any positive or negative effects. We'll get to see if this product is for real, Follicept gets to convince their audience. So it's really a win-win for everybody.


 I will run this by Dr. Hsu- there may be issues with safety/control/interaction, so he may want only a group that is treatment-naive if we do it. I'll keep you posted!

----------


## follicept

> They can't just send samples out willy-nilly because it could be bad for business.  They're part of a university incubator, which means they have to follow testing protocols that are overseen by the IRB.  Anyone that's done research in an academic setting knows this.  I'm not positive on this, but I have a feeling Follicept's trials would fall under some sort of medical category even though they're cosmetic (likely less stringent than something like a new drug). Regardless, it doesn't make sense to send samples out if they want to monitor test subjects and observe the efficacy of the product firsthand.  Plus, in the unlikely event that Follicept caused adverse side effects, Prometheon could be in a world of hurt if they just sent samples out without testing it in a more controlled way first.  Even if they were legally protected, it could be a lot of bad press if their product caused issues due to reckless/uncontrolled testing.  It's a matter of control and liability, which you're clearly too dense to understand.


 +10000, minus the personal attack  :Wink:

----------


## FrenchNewbie

If it was L'Oréal who speak with us, i would have been more than skeptic. But here we have a human structure with a real innovation with diabetes. It's not the same philosophy.

I know these laboratories in France. It's my job, i work with a ruche of labs. You think i'm naive, but i know that type of structure. And trust me, they don't want to be discredited by scamming practices.

----------


## follicept

> Arashi, the supplement industry is largely ignored by the FDA as well - you don't think companies lose lawsuits when their products make people very ill, or kill someone?  Fine print only goes so far.  Plus, their name would be ruined if things went awry.
> 
> You should be happy they're not going straight to market.  Don't you think if they were a scam they'd already be selling the product?  You see the amount of interest people have for the product; Follicept could make a good chunk by just selling the product now, but they're insisting on doing it the right way.  You clearly have blinders on.


 Correct.

----------


## follicept

> Read up on cosmetic product law (I once did). All they need to do is fill out some forms, make sure their product CAN be marketed as cosmetic product (there are some restrictions but Devon already checked that he said) and then do a toxicity lab test and they can sell it. They then obeyed the law. Good luck sueing them !


 Clearly not from the US! What the law says and what you can be sued for (and lose for!!) are very, very different.

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## FearTheLoss

People really need to stop commenting on this thread. It's ridiculous. Wake up and smell the roses people.

----------


## follicept

> Do you want me to link a few bio companies that are even NASDAQ listed (or were) and took investors money without delivering even a single product that actually worked ? They all had professors and what's more working for them. That's no proof at all. A test like this, now that I'll trust ! Easy simple and effective.
> 
> Now, not going to respond anymore to you, you're clearly only interested in picking a fight and it's cluttering the thread.


 Btw, this isn't the first time I have given my body to science!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9CIub8V3p8

Jeez, my beard was out of control! and I have lost some weight. And hair.

----------


## nave13579

This thread has become completely boycotted by Arashi.  Look dude, we all get what you're saying, thank you for your input, now stop drawing out meaningless conversation loops.  OR if you must continue, open your own thread called "follicept BTT trial debate" and leave this thread with integrity.  The greater community would very much appreciate if you did.

----------


## Helix

> you're clearly only interested in picking a fight and it's cluttering the thread.


 Seriously ?

Can you at least wait for their "fake" pictures to appear before you continue with what you are doing ?

Every day I come here to see some news about this product and I have to go through 5 pages of you people repeating the same thing over and over.

----------


## Arashi

> I will run this by Dr. Hsu- there may be issues with safety/control/interaction, so he may want only a group that is treatment-naive if we do it. I'll keep you posted!


 Ok, would love to hear about any issue's he has. You promised to first make 100% sure it works. So if there are any safety issue's, then just wait till you have everything ready to market your product (all safety issue's should be resolved by then otherwise you may simply not sell it anyway), we'll select 20 people we all find trustworthy and run that 4 week test/trial then ! What better way than this to promote your product !

----------


## Arashi

> Clearly not from the US! What the law says and what you can be sued for (and lose for!!) are very, very different.


 That's interesting. Could you describe me a scenario where: 

1) you did your toxicity test (as other needed lab tests), an independent lab didnt find any problems and certified your product as non toxic and non harmful,
2) your product was eligible to be marketed as cosmetic product and 
3) where you filled out and submitted the right forms ?

And someone still could succesfully sue you for some reaction he got ? You have the law on your side.

And even then. I mean, at some point you're going to sell your product anyway. So why not sell it for $0.05 to 20 people here on the forum that we've selected and want to run the test for 4 weeks ? Wouldn't be that simply be THE best way to convince even the biggest doubters of your product ?

----------


## hellouser

> That's interesting. Could you describe me a scenario where: 
> 
> 1) you did your toxicity test, an independent lab didnt find any problems and certified your product as non toxic,
> 2) your product was eligible to be market as cosmetic product and 
> 3) where you filled out the right forms ?
> 
> And even then. I mean, at one point you're going to sell your product anyway. So why not sell it for $0.05 to 20 people here on the forum that we've selected and want to run the test for 4 weeks ?


 4 weeks? You're not going to any results in 4 weeks. 4 MONTHS, maybe.

----------


## noisette

> Will advise...is Hellouser US based?


 Hi Devon, I hope you are fine  :Wink:  

It's ver strange. I can see your posts (all of them for today) just now... I think Hellouser is a canadian ? I believe so I'm not sure. Hey Hell' ???

----------


## Arashi

> Hi Devon, I hope you are fine  
> 
> It's ver strange. I can see your posts (all of them for today) just now... I think Hellouser is a canadian ? I believe so I'm not sure. Hey Hell' ???


 He's in 'moderation queue'. Anyone behaving badly, having placed personal attacks or breaking other forum rules, will get into that. That means a moderator first has to read his posts before they appear on the forum. Don't know why he's in there, but I do know that representatives of companies are being held up to higher standards than regular users.

And yeah, Hellouser is US based although thinking of it, not 100% sure, might indeed be canadian...

----------


## noisette

> Give the stuff to me since I'm the only one competent when it comes to documenting progress.


  Hey Hell' ?? Are you based in U.S ?

----------


## hellouser

> Hey Hell' ?? Are you based in U.S ?


 No, I'm in Canada (Toronto).

----------


## Arashi

> Hey Hell' ?? Are you based in U.S ?


 BTW, IF follicept agrees to the test, I'd highly vote for people like you to be included too. Long term poster, who has expressed himself in favour of the product (so can't be accused of 'wanting' to let the test fail). I'd say, let's get a group of 20 people like Hellouser, yourself and others and we'd have a really credible, independent, forum test !

----------


## Hemo

Hellouser is in Canada...

----------


## Nerve

> Again, give me 1 good reason why we shouldnt do this test and I'll leave this thread, that's a promise to you


 `You leaving` would be the best reason.

----------


## serenemoon

Did you see this Arashi? I am starting to see all of Follicept's responses now. There are more posts by Devon in between the post below and this one....

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post204284

----------


## noisette

> BTW, IF follicept agrees to the test, I'd highly vote for people like you to be included too. Long term poster, who has expressed himself in favour of the product (so can't be accused of 'wanting' to let the test fail). I'd say, get a group of 20 people like Hellouser, yourself and others and we'd have a really credible test !


 
Thank you Arashi  :Smile:  But I think also that people like you and Swooping can test it if this is possible... 

I am based in France.  If our community vote for me, so I would like give my money for a sample ( I don't forget Promotheon pharma is a small company from a University and they have some costs, this is just for me, my idea).

I believe on their product  : 
Few months before we see Follicept here, I have created a thread on December 2014, about IGF1... A strange coïncidence... I like the work they have done for diabetes.... And for me Devon and Hsu are great persons (when I saw vids and their "no pricks compaign"...) . Perhaps their product will be failed, but I don't think that... And I want a cure, or a product for all of us...  

If they can make a trial for us, it would be great and after that we can support Follicept all over the world with our gratitude...

----------


## Arashi

> Did you see this Arashi? I am starting to see all of Follicept's responses now. There are more posts by Devon in between the post below and this one....
> 
> https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post204284


 Thanks, hadn't seen it indeed. Well that sounds hopeful, if they indeed agree to the test then we'd be all happy as could be !

BTW, "Harvard trained", i might misunderstand the link-in info, but it says he merely worked at a hospital associated with Harvard ? He never studied at Harvard, let alone got a degree there. But no biggie, let's focus on the test  :Smile:

----------


## serenemoon

> Thanks, hadn't seen it indeed. Well that sounds hopeful, if they indeed agree to the test then we'd be all happy as could be !
> 
> BTW, "Harvard trained", i might misunderstand the link-in info, but it says he merely worked at a hospital associated with Harvard ? He never studied at Harvard, let alone got a degree there. But no biggie, let's focus on the test


 Residency and fellowship counts as training in medicine for physicians. Anyone who trained in Mass General for residency/fellowship is considered Harvard trained  :Smile:

----------


## stayhopeful

Does anyone else find it funny that Arashi transformed from bashing the product and claiming there is no way it will work... now he is the most eager one to start testing the thing, haha ... so i guess you do have hope Arashi, somewhere under there

----------


## Arashi

> Does anyone else find it funny that Arashi transformed from bashing the product and claiming there is no way it will work... now he is the most eager one to start testing the thing, haha ... so i guess you do have hope Arashi, somewhere under there


 Look, we can go on fighting, throwing personal attacks and what's more and we'd be 100 pages further without any result. So I figured, let's focus on our common goal here and that's to determine if this really works or not.

----------


## noisette

> Does anyone else find it funny that Arashi transformed from bashing the product and claiming there is no way it will work... now he is the most eager one to start testing the thing, haha ... so i guess you do have hope Arashi, somewhere under there


 Hey bro  :Wink:  I understand Arashi. I'm not agree with some points, but he would like to help us  :Smile:  
I believe on Follicept, not him, but who knows ? we are all in the same boat and I would like to thank you, another time, Devon for his hard work.

----------


## Arashi

> Residency and fellowship counts as training in medicine for physicians. Anyone who trained in Mass General for residency/fellowship is considered Harvard trained


 But according to his Linked-in he was just a physician at that Harvard associated hospital or am I misreading the info here: https://www.linkedin.com/pub/stephen-hsu/37/9b5/776

----------


## serenemoon

> But according to his Linked-in he was just a physician at that Harvard associated hospital or am I misreading the info here: https://www.linkedin.com/pub/stephen-hsu/37/9b5/776


 Clinical and Research Fellow
Massachusetts General Hospital
July 1996 – October 1998 (2 years 4 months)Greater Boston Area

Internship and Residency in Internal Medicine
Massachusetts General Hospital
July 1992 – June 1995 (3 years)Greater Boston Area

----------


## Arashi

> Clinical and Research Fellow
> Massachusetts General Hospital
> July 1996 – October 1998 (2 years 4 months)Greater Boston Area
> 
> Internship and Residency in Internal Medicine
> Massachusetts General Hospital
> July 1992 – June 1995 (3 years)Greater Boston Area


 Ok, so internship at that hospital equals "Harvard trained". Ok thanks for clearing that up, you're right indeed.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Please stop now Arashi. We all understood your opinion. And what? Perhaps you work for a big pharma or a grafter?  :Embarrassment:  Your seniority on this forum proves nothing. So stop your allegation and your bashing and go speaking on Fina topic. 

Thank you from France.

----------


## diffuseloser

We should really implement a "no pricks" campaign for this thread. It's getting out of hand.

----------


## dus

> Please stop now Arashi. We all understood your opinion. And what? Perhaps you work for a big pharma or a grafter?  Your seniority on this forum proves nothing. So stop your allegation and your bashing and go speaking on Fina topic. 
> 
> Thank you from France.


 Arashi has a pretty solid track record. I'd rather hear his input than comments about people almost crying because the "cure" is here while there is no real evidence yet.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

I know. But he could let them the benefit of doubt...

----------


## just2hairs

If Devon and team see good results in the weeks to come, you can bet it'll be all over the news very soon after that.  We wouldn't need to worry about testing it ourselves and just worry about how we can get our hands on it asap!

I trust Follicept.

----------


## serenemoon

> If Devon and team see good results in the weeks to come, you can bet it'll be all over the news very soon after that.  We wouldn't need to worry about testing it ourselves and just worry about how we can get our hands on it asap!
> 
> I trust Follicept.


 +1. The aftermath of the trials will speak for themselves. I am fully convinced of the integrity of Prometheon so I trust that they will be honest about the results, positive, neutral or negative. I personally don't care for BTT forum trials and individual approval anyway. Like Devon said, if they are convinced that it works, it is reason enough to release it. The majority lot of people are supporting them anyway. If BTT trials happen, great. If it doesn't, well I don't think it will really be hurting Follicept anyway. I am so eager to see if this works or not, and btw Devon, I think "Follicept Fridays" is a very cool concept!!

----------


## hiko

> Ok, so internship at that hospital equals "Harvard trained". Ok thanks for clearing that up, you're right indeed.


 Why do you continue to speak of things you don't know anything about? Internship is first year of residency. Fellowship is subspecialty training. He is Harvard trained. Or are the only people you consider Harvard trained the dumb undergrads? 

Completing residency at Harvard is a big accomplishment. This guy has qualifications. He's not some chump like you or Swooping.

----------


## stayhopeful

Agreeeed!

----------


## follicept

> Thanks, hadn't seen it indeed. Well that sounds hopeful, if they indeed agree to the test then we'd be all happy as could be !
> 
> BTW, "Harvard trained", i might misunderstand the link-in info, but it says he merely worked at a hospital associated with Harvard ? He never studied at Harvard, let alone got a degree there. But no biggie, let's focus on the test


 No, he did is residency and fellowship there. Meaning he was trained as a physician there. And he was also on faculty there.

----------


## cr1mson

> Thanks, hadn't seen it indeed. Well that sounds hopeful, if they indeed agree to the test then we'd be all happy as could be !
> 
> BTW, "Harvard trained", i might misunderstand the link-in info, but it says he merely worked at a hospital associated with Harvard ? He never studied at Harvard, let alone got a degree there. But no biggie, let's focus on the test


 Anyone else find it hilarious that this guy is not yelling scammer five times in every post  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## follicept

> That's interesting. Could you describe me a scenario where: 
> 
> 1) you did your toxicity test (as other needed lab tests), an independent lab didnt find any problems and certified your product as non toxic and non harmful,
> 2) your product was eligible to be marketed as cosmetic product and 
> 3) where you filled out and submitted the right forms ?
> 
> And someone still could succesfully sue you for some reaction he got ? You have the law on your side.
> 
> And even then. I mean, at some point you're going to sell your product anyway. So why not sell it for $0.05 to 20 people here on the forum that we've selected and want to run the test for 4 weeks ? Wouldn't be that simply be THE best way to convince even the biggest doubters of your product ?


 Happens all the time. Unfortunately, you don't need to prove anything in order to initiate a lawsuit. Can cost time and money and force someone to settle just to make them go away, whether there are not any grounds. Happens every day.

----------


## Keki

We are losing the opportunity to get more info about the trial, who care what akashi or what the other trolls think, Devon should set up a board/forum in his site aswell, this thread isn't enough imho, we will have hundreads and hundreads of comments if positive, right now a good number of important answers are lost in pages and pages of bullshit and flames, and we keep asking the same questions over and over, at this point Devon should ignore them, they are internet warriors who hide behind the keyboard, this is not being skeptical, this is defamation

Going back on topic, i want to ask how many people are involved in your personal early trial? Are they using other treatments? What Nw are they? I think these are the important questions people should make, a good half of users there want to know if they can switch or not without losing too much for example, or if the use of follicept can make the absorption of other topicals dangerous, from neogenic to ru to other hundreads of different spray people are using now

----------


## stayhopeful

I'm with Keki, I propose from hereafter this thread stays objective as possible.  In order for that to be true, the rest of this discussion should be centered only on the objective results/details of the upcoming trial.  Devon did mention that he could start his personal experience as soon as Monday!

----------


## Hemo

> Arashi has a pretty solid track record. I'd rather hear his input than comments about people almost crying because the "cure" is here while there is no real evidence yet.


 No one's claiming this is the cure.  People are just excited about seeing results since Follicept came out of nowhere.  Arashi's the one that barged into the thread claiming Follicept is a scam and the only way to prove otherwise (after pages of insinuating the Follicept team are con artists) is to send the treatment to forum users, as if he's some sort of authority.  To be honest, I'd rather just wait to see what the initial findings are from Devon and his crew, but whatever.

----------


## follicept

> We are losing the opportunity to get more info about the trial, who care what akashi or what the other trolls think, Devon should set up a board/forum in his site aswell, this thread isn't enough imho, we will have hundreads and hundreads of comments if positive, right now a good number of important answers are lost in pages and pages of bullshit and flames, and we keep asking the same questions over and over, at this point Devon should ignore them, they are internet warriors who hide behind the keyboard, this is not being skeptical, this is defamation
> 
> Going back on topic, i want to ask how many people are involved in your personal early trial? Are they using other treatments? What Nw are they? I think these are the important questions people should make, a good half of users there want to know if they can switch or not without losing too much for example, or if the use of follicept can make the absorption of other topicals dangerous, from neogenic to ru to other hundreads of different spray people are using now


 great questions that I will make sure we answer. Don't have the group fully selected yet, but will definitely do pics and such as we firm that up. Ironically, now the easier ingredients to get are delaying us. Before, we ordered under UF and are now setting up an account as a company instead, so should have the ingredients in hand next week. I get back Monday night, and as soon as the ingredients and I are all in the same place at the same time, we'll start!  :Smile:  haha

----------


## Arashi

> and the only way to prove otherwise (after pages of insinuating the Follicept team are con artists) is to send the treatment to forum users, as if he's some sort of authority.


 I'm not an authority at all. I just think this is the only way to prove it. People like you are happy already with unverified proof supplied by the company itself. Good for you. Others don't buy into that. So let Follicept do the forum trial and convince everybody, even the biggest doubters. Good for us, good for them.  I'm not sure why you guys have to be so sour about it (mainly coming from accounts opened in the last few months, after follicept joined here, and yeah, that looks quite suspicious indeed) ...

----------


## Jagger

> I'm not an authority at all. I just think this is the only way to prove it. People like you are happy already with unverified proof supplied by the company itself. Good for you. Others don't buy into that. So let Follicept do the forum trial and convince everybody, even the biggest doubters. Good for us, good for them.  I'm not sure why you guys have to be so sour about it (mainly coming from accounts opened in the last few months, after follicept joined here, and yeah, that looks quite suspicious indeed) ...


 If I had to guess, it's your attitude and persistent circular argument that is souring forum users. We understand what you are saying, and we understood it 20 pages ago when you first said the same things you're still saying.

For the record, I agree with you, a trial would end the debate. If Follicept signs off on it, great. I actually would vote for you, Arashi, as a tester, because if the product convinces you of all people then it's as good as gold. Plus it's been a while since I watched a good crow-eating.

But it's hardly the "only" way to prove it works. It's just the only one that would satisfy this population of paranoid forumgoers. A year from now, we'll know for sure regardless of the opinions of BTTers.

----------


## Arashi

> If I had to guess, it's your attitude and persistent circular argument that is souring forum users. We understand what you are saying, and we understood it 20 pages ago when you first said the same things you're still saying.
> 
> For the record, I agree with you, a trial would end the debate. If Follicept signs off on it, great. I actually would vote for you, Arashi, as a tester, because if the product convinces you of all people then it's as good as gold. Plus it's been a while since I watched a good crow-eating.
> 
> But it's hardly the "only" way to prove it works. It's just the only one that would satisfy this population of paranoid forumgoers. A year from now, we'll know for sure regardless of the opinions of BTTers.


 We've seen at least 6 scammers here in the last few years. Companies that even had papers published in so called peer reviewed scientific journals (so even more credible than Follicept is at the moment). 

So, not directly believing what companies claim, you could hardly call that paranoid after everything that's happened here.

----------


## Hemo

And for the record, I'm not willing to buy anything until I see results either.  At the same time, I don't believe in challenging someone that's given me no reason to (and selling a treatment with no proof that it works is a reason, but Follicept isn't doing that).

----------


## just2hairs

@Arashi, dude you're looking foolish and paranoid...repeating like a broken record.

----------


## Arashi

> @Arashi, dude you're looking foolish and paranoid...repeating like a broken record.


 And you look like a follicept fake account. You really think people will buy into it with new accounts every day ? Just run that forum test, hand us the evidence and shut me up that way ! But going by the way you guys are playing it (trying to shut me up with your fake accounts) I hightly doubt you guys are willing to run that test ... You'll come up with some BS excuse about safety or whatever reason to NOT do that forum test and then present some terrific results yourself that nobody can verify.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> We've seen at least 6 scammers here in the last few years. Companies that even had papers published in so called peer reviewed scientific journals (so even more credible than Follicept is at the moment). 
> 
> So, not directly believing what companies claim, you could hardly call that paranoid after everything that's happened here.


 I'm alerting you to moderation. We can't let you diffame a lab without proof. Your only proof is that other firms (very very different) were scammers. So now stop it. We understood. And you are a flooder and a troller!

I ask other members alerting Arashi to moderation. We can't continue like that. We will loose Devon... 

PS: If Devon want, we invite him on the french forum Doctissimo. More, i can create an Invision Power Board forum in just 1 day. I want to see the first results. And Arashi can't take that with his defamation.




> And you look like a follicept fake account. You really think people will buy into it with new accounts every day ? Just run that forum test, hand us the evidence and shut me up that way ! But going by the way you guys are playing it (trying to shut me up with your fake accounts) I hightly doubt you guys are willing to run that test ... You'll come up with some BS excuse about safety or whatever reason to NOT do that forum test and then present some terrific results yourself that nobody can verify.


 Are you silly? There are threads all over the occidental world. I will ask a moderator to check my IP adress and others and tell if we are fakes.

----------


## Jagger

> We've seen at least 6 scammers here in the last few years. Companies that even had papers published in so called peer reviewed scientific journals (so even more credible than Follicept is at the moment). 
> 
> So, not directly believing what companies claim, you could hardly call that paranoid after everything that's happened here.


 I know. Contrary to my post count, I've lurked here for years. I remember Gho, I remember thinking he was a crock of shit.

It's fine if you don't believe it'll work. I already said I agree with your forum test idea. I think you should test it because if you of all people can be convinced, we're all good. If not, business as usual. I'm just sick of wading through five pages of you copy pasting the same argument into every other post. We get it, dude.

Perhaps paranoid was not the best word, but it describes the sentiment I get from all of the negative response. NO ONE KNOWS if Follicept works. If people are willing to throw money at it before having evidence, that's their fault for being uninformed consumers. If it doesn't work, we're exactly where we were before Follicept showed up.

Until Follicept demonstrates one way or another if it's a scam or not, it is best to remain neutral.

----------


## Arashi

> I'm alerting you to moderation. We can't let you diffame a lab without proof. Your only proof is that other firm (very very different) were scam.


 We have seen several scammers, some caused people to lose hair (Tom with Nigam) or even almost literally killed people (Wesley with Nigam). So, scammers should be stopped as soon as possible. People also said it in Nigam's case: "Arashi you cant call Nigam a scammer yet, until we have 100% proof". Well I'll tell you what, 100% proof doesnt exist, there are still people who claim Nigam wasn't a scammer (read JarJarbinx'es (="nameless") reply here). But I do know I saved people, not only their money, not only their hair but maybe even literally their lives (google this board for Wesley and Nigam).

You want to shut me up ? Then show me proof that it works !! Not some proof that nobody can verify, but independent proof !

----------


## Jagger

> We have seen several scammers, some caused people to lose hair (Tom with Nigam) or even almost literally killed people (Wesley with Nigam). So, scammers should be stopped as soon as possible. People also said it in Nigam's case: "Arashi you cant call Nigam a scammer yet, until we have 100% proof". Well I'll tell you what, 100% proof doesnt exist, there are still people who claim Nigam wasn't a scammer (read JarJarbinx'es (="nameless") reply here). But I do know I saved people, not only their money, not only their hair but maybe even literally their lives (google this board for Wesley and Nigam).
> 
> You want to shut me up ? Then show me proof that it works !! Not some proof that nobody can verify, but independent proof !


 Jesus H. Christ. There is no proof. It hasn't been tested yet. Follicept has said he's going to look into your independent test idea. That alone should be enough to silence you until we hear back from him.

I'm starting to miss Swooping. At least he was entertaining.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> We have seen several scammers, some caused people to lose hair (Tom with Nigam) or even almost literally killed people (Wesley with Nigam). So, scammers should be stopped as soon as possible. People also said it in Nigam's case: "Arashi you cant call Nigam a scammer yet, until we have 100% proof". Well I'll tell you what, 100% proof doesnt exist, there are still people who claim Nigam wasn't a scammer (read JarJarbinx'es (="nameless") reply here). But I do know I saved people, not only their money, not only their hair but maybe even literally their lives (google this board for Wesley and Nigam).
> 
> You want to shut me up ? Then show me proof that it works !! Not some proof that nobody can verify, but independent proof !


 Thank you Superman. I alerted you. If they are a scammers, you are a flooder and a slanderer.

----------


## Arashi

> Jesus H. Christ. There is no proof. It hasn't been tested yet. Follicept has said he's going to look into your independent test idea. That alone should be enough to silence you until we hear back from him.


 Well then instead all those posts "Arashi this" "Arashi that", focus on follicept and I'll focus on the forum test. Everybody happy.

----------


## just2hairs

> And you look like a follicept fake account. You really think people will buy into it with new accounts every day ? Just run that forum test, hand us the evidence and shut me up that way ! But going by the way you guys are playing it (trying to shut me up with your fake accounts) I hightly doubt you guys are willing to run that test ... You'll come up with some BS excuse about safety or whatever reason to NOT do that forum test and then present some terrific results yourself that nobody can verify.


 If I were a new "Follicept spy", how would i know about Nigam (photoshop king), Yoram (a leech himself), and JarJarbinx (LMAO)? Paranoia much? Your scam fighting tactics don't apply here.  Devon and Dr Hsu are legit!

I'm waiting for Devon's results and nothing more.  Even if they fail, they still have my full respect.

----------


## Arashi

> If I were a new "Follicept spy", how would i know about Nigam (photoshop king), Yoram (a leech himself), and JarJarbinx (LMAO)? Paranoia much? Your scam fighting tactics don't apply here.  Devon and Dr Hsu are legit!


 Eh, since I mentioned them several times in the last few days ? And the search function works actually quite well indeed here. How else would an account opened last month know about them ?

----------


## Jagger

Clearly no argument will ever pierce this guy's armor of righteousness.

Moving back to the topic at hand...

Devon, what's the progress on the other ingredients? I recall you saying that you were just waiting on other shipments before you could begin mixing. All according to plan, I hope?

----------


## follicept

> Eh, since I mentioned them several times in the last few days ? And the search function works actually quite well indeed here.


 I have no clue who Nigam and Yoram are and don't care, especially since they were apparently bogus and may have hurt people. I am going to do the right thing by us and by science, and the chips will fall where they may. Will update you when I hear from Dr. Hsu, probably next Tuesday or Wednesday. Not checking the forums this weekend (last weekend was so nice!) and travelling all day Monday, so I will update on Tuesday. 

Have a great weekend, everyone!

----------


## efedrez

> We have seen several scammers, some caused people to lose hair (Tom with Nigam) or even almost literally killed people (Wesley with Nigam). So, scammers should be stopped as soon as possible. People also said it in Nigam's case: "Arashi you cant call Nigam a scammer yet, until we have 100% proof". Well I'll tell you what, 100% proof doesnt exist, there are still people who claim Nigam wasn't a scammer (read JarJarbinx'es (="nameless") reply here). But I do know I saved people, not only their money, not only their hair but maybe even literally their lives (google this board for Wesley and Nigam).
> 
> You want to shut me up ? Then show me proof that it works !! Not some proof that nobody can verify, but independent proof !


 Even though your intentions of saving people might be legit I have been trying to keep up with all the post and can't find a single one of someone asking to be saved from potential scammers, and its always important to keep in mind that offering help often requires someone asking for it.

Its not right to assume that the rest of us are a group of uninformed helpless baldies without the ability to evaluate for our self what is best for us.

No one is jumping to conclusion yet and whatever we say right now is pure speculation. Please let us wait for some results and them your comments and analysis will be welcome

----------


## efedrez

> Devon, what's the progress on the other ingredients? I recall you saying that you were just waiting on other shipments before you could begin mixing. All according to plan, I hope?


 This is what we all should be waiting for at this point...

I hope they are still on track to have the first test batch next week!

----------


## Hemo

> We have seen several scammers, some caused people to lose hair (Tom with Nigam) or even almost literally killed people (Wesley with Nigam). So, scammers should be stopped as soon as possible. People also said it in Nigam's case: "Arashi you cant call Nigam a scammer yet, until we have 100% proof". Well I'll tell you what, 100% proof doesnt exist, there are still people who claim Nigam wasn't a scammer (read JarJarbinx'es (="nameless") reply here). But I do know I saved people, not only their money, not only their hair but maybe even literally their lives (google this board for Wesley and Nigam).
> 
> You want to shut me up ? Then show me proof that it works !! Not some proof that nobody can verify, but independent proof !


 What's that you say?  Previous scammers almost killed people with untested products?  Yet you want Follicept to send an untested treatment out to forum members?  Sounds like great logic there my friend...

The issues you've had with previous scammers is exactly what Devon/Follicept is trying to avoid by doing a convenience and then local trial.

----------


## serenemoon

> This is what we all should be waiting for at this point...
> 
> I hope they are still on track to have the first test batch next week!


 Wouldn't it be great, with some music in the beginning, and Devon announcing, "IIIIIIItttt'sssss FOLLICEPTTTTTT FRIDAYYYYYY"

----------


## Hicks

For the love of God!  Sorry but I'm blocking everyone that acts like a 2 year old. This should make reading this thread easier.

----------


## Jagger

Stop Hemo, we're done. Back on track. No need to provoke other members. It's played out and juvenile. Everyone shake hands, dammit. We're all in this together.

----------


## Arashi

> Stop Hemo, we're done. Back on track. No need to provoke other members. It's played out and juvenile. Everyone shake hands, dammit. We're all in this together.


 Exactly, let's focus on our common goal. I'm not going to react to provoking posts like his anymore.

----------


## just2hairs

> Eh, since I mentioned them several times in the last few days ? And the search function works actually quite well indeed here. How else would an account opened last month know about them ?


 Been a long time lurker at Hairsite, HLH, Stop aga, and ***.  You did good, but you're way off on this one.  Just sit back and relax, we'll know the truth soon enough.

----------


## Keki

I dunno why the mods doesn't clean the thread, this is almost impossible to follow, people are joking i have 200k view in this thread but if i'ts hard for me it's almost impossible for everyone else, it was like 40 pages ago when i suggested we must keep this thread clean only for trial info, results and interaction with Devon, arashi i suggest you to open a thread questioning prometheon, follicept, the community trial ecc i'm sure you will succeed, everyone is very interested in what you think and your idea

----------


## Jagger

Devon says he'll see us Tuesday. We can all calm down just calm down now. Put on some Bob Ross and reconvene next week, when hopefully we'll have some exciting news.

----------


## Arashi

> I dunno why the mods doesn't clean the thread, this is almost impossible to follow, people are joking i have 200k view in this thread but if i'ts hard for me it's almost impossible for everyone else, it was like 40 pages ago when i suggested we must keep this thread clean only for trial info, results and interaction with Devon, arashi i suggest you to open a thread questioning prometheon, follicept, the community trial ecc i'm sure you will succeed, everyone is very interested in what you think and your idea


 Once Devon agrees to do the forum test, I'll open up a thread and we'll discuss everything related to the trial there. No problem.

----------


## serenemoon

> I have no clue who Nigam and Yoram are and don't care, especially since they were apparently bogus and may have hurt people. I am going to do the right thing by us and by science, and the chips will fall where they may. Will update you when I hear from Dr. Hsu, probably next Tuesday or Wednesday. Not checking the forums this weekend (last weekend was so nice!) and travelling all day Monday, so I will update on Tuesday. 
> 
> Have a great weekend, everyone!


 +1

----------


## bigentries

> Been a long time lurker at Hairsite, HLH, Stop aga, and ***.  You did good, but you're way off on this one.  Just sit back and relax, we'll know the truth soon enough.


 People said the same thing to him with others scams, I remember people saying the same thing to Arashi with Nigam and Pilox

People asked to "sit back and relax" and "we'll know the truth soon enough" to the Chlorine treatment. The same arguments get repeated here.
You remember what happened? Several people got scarred and the guy secretly sold the treatment to other forum members

Skeptics wouldn't be so vocal if the supporters wouldn't be so vocal too. People are already claiming to be "TeamFollicept" and admit they don't care if it works or not

This crap gets repeated again and again with no repercussions. People that pushed scams in the past should be banned for life and conveniently new members using the same distraction tactics should at least get some sort of penalty

----------


## noisette

> I have no clue who Nigam and Yoram are and don't care, especially since they were apparently bogus and may have hurt people. I am going to do the right thing by us and by science, and the chips will fall where they may. Will update you when I hear from Dr. Hsu, probably next Tuesday or Wednesday. Not checking the forums this weekend (last weekend was so nice!) and travelling all day Monday, so I will update on Tuesday. 
> 
> Have a great weekend, everyone!


 Thank you Devon ! Enjoy your weekend !  :Smile:

----------


## Gbalding

> Thank you Devon ! Enjoy your weekend !


 Yeah dude, enjoy your weekend! 

Btw, there are silent members who are rooting for you as well!

----------


## noisette

> Once Devon agrees to do the forum test, I'll open up a thread and we'll discuss everything related to the trial there. No problem.


 +1 I have no doubts about Devon and Hsu's integrity  :Smile:  
And I'm agree with you about all you said for the past and scammers. Don't listen others who provoke you  :Wink:  

I'm not agree with you for Follicept only. You know that Bro, but I understand what you said, and agree with it for the few things past  :Smile:

----------


## Keki

> Once Devon agrees to do the forum test, I'll open up a thread and we'll discuss everything related to the trial there. No problem.


 This will never happen, first as people already said they don't really want to send their never used on human before product to random unknow people before even they use it on themself, you understand this is dangerous and probably illegal in us aswell, second as soon they see something interesting they will start to sell the early batch so you can wait helluser if you want, i think he will try it anyway like the other 95% of people here who think they are not scammer at all, third i suggest you to be careful about helluser results, he is my favourite user aswell but you have to understand from a clinic point of view he is not usefull, he is using almost everything, to use follicept he need to drop half of his things like minox or ru according to their team, so you should wait for someone else report if skeptical, but at that point lot of people here would post their pics and you can have your community trial, last point i would wait for pics, you are assuming we will get positive fake pics, i would save the energy for that moment, it's pointless questioning them before even their ipotetical "fake" proof


For the chlorine treatment i don't understand the analogy, i don't think we are assisting to the same level of safety, and we alredy know this cannot be harmfull if they inject the active ingredient thousands time greater to kids, i don't think will get scarred wtf

----------


## Arashi

> This will never happen, first as people already said they don't really want to send their never used on human before product to random unknow people before even they use it on themself, you understand this is dangerous and probably illegal in us aswell


 But that's good, I don't want them to send out some uncertified product neither. They should do the needed lab testing, to determine toxicity etc before sending it out. In other words, the product should be ready to be legally sold, before sending it out to the forum members. We don't want people to function as some guinea pigs and die because of this test  :Smile:  The idea is to lower the risk for this community, not increase it.




> second as soon they see something interesting they will start to sell the early batch so you can wait helluser if you want, i think he will try it anyway like the other 95% of people here who think they are not scammer at all,


 I can't stop anyone from buying the product before the end of the forum trial. That decision is of course for everyone to be made. I'm just saying that the moment it's legally certified, we should do the test. 




> third i suggest you to be careful about helluser results, he is my favourite user aswell but you have to understand from a clinic point of view he is not usefull, he is using almost everything, to use follicept he need to drop half of his things like minox or ru according to their team, so you should wait for someone else report if skeptical, but at that point lot of people here would post their pics and you can have your community trial


 I think it would be best to find 10 people who are on nothing and 10 people who are on other meds already. If anything, it would be interesting to follicept to learn about the combo effects.




> last point i would wait for pics, you are assuming we will get positive fake pics, i would save the energy for that moment, it's pointless questioning them before even their ipotetical "fake" proof


 See BigEntries response on the previous page, he worded it quite well.

----------


## Jagger

I don't think a forum trial is too farfetched. Follicept has already shown that they are willing to engage with the public on this. Should probably avoid selecting people who use topical treatments though, given what little we know. At any rate, we won't know until Tuesday since Devon has signed off for the weekend.

----------


## Clion1995

If there is a forum trial I really hope Devon is biased and doesn't chose assholes like Arashi and others.

----------


## Jagger

> If there is a forum trial I really hope Devon is biased and doesn't chose assholes like Arashi and others.


 Come on, man. We're done with the personal attacks. I personally think Arashi would make a great candidate. If he approved, then that says a lot more than if someone like me did.

----------


## Keki

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8006448

this is a very old study, but i don't understand some point

So it states igf-1 is better then insulin preventing hair going into catagen
without insulin follicle go in catagen faster
Then it states igf is useless in the presence  10mg of insulin
then it states growth hormone have no effect if it's not present insulin

in the end it say "we should remove insuline to get more catagen" assumign then to use only igf1?

Can this invitro thing work the same in our body? We need to clean our scalp from insuling in order to make it work? I don't think it's possible and i found it very confusing

----------


## just2hairs

> People said the same thing to him with others scams, I remember people saying the same thing to Arashi with Nigam and Pilox
> 
> People asked to "sit back and relax" and "we'll know the truth soon enough" to the Chlorine treatment. The same arguments get repeated here.
> You remember what happened? Several people got scarred and the guy secretly sold the treatment to other forum members
> 
> Skeptics wouldn't be so vocal if the supporters wouldn't be so vocal too. People are already claiming to be "TeamFollicept" and admit they don't care if it works or not
> 
> This crap gets repeated again and again with no repercussions. People that pushed scams in the past should be banned for life and conveniently new members using the same distraction tactics should at least get some sort of penalty


 Relax man!  Follicept has not even posted results and has not taken anyone's money.  You and Arashi are jumping the gun and parroting the same thing over and over...scam this and scam that.

We get it, you guys are professional scam fighters!!!   :Big Grin:  Just relax and see how things play out first. I am convinced Follicept is the real deal.  For those who think otherwise just wait and see...and let us make our own decisions.

----------


## nameless

> I responded to Arashi but want to reiterate that the FDA did not and does not have an active role in this. They didn't guide us one way or another. We reviewed criteria and have determined we can market as a cosmetic. 
> 
> Yes, we will do a small but statistically significant trial under conditions that will allow us to publish data in respected peer-reviewed journals. 
> 
> My job is not to convince Arashi, or any of you for that matter. My job is to test efficacy and then help get an effective, safe product to market. The proof is in the pudding, not in Arashi's opinion.


 OK, I misunderstood the issue about the FDA. I thought you submitted an application to test and the FDA decided testing was not necessary. It still does not change my opinion one bit that Follicept is NOT a scam but the reality that Follicept on it's own sought to market the product as a cosmetic w/o clinical trials does remove one favorable point from Follicept. 

That aside, I fully agree that it is not your job to convince us here at the bald truth of anything but it IS our job to try to figure out if Follicept's treatment is effective or not, and if Follicept is a scam or not. I told you fair and square that I am "keeping score".  Again, I don't mean that as an insult...it's just the truth. 

And again, at this point I do not see one shred of evidence that Follicept is trying to scam anyone. I think that the word scam should stop being leveled against Follicept since there is no evidence that Follicept is a scam.

----------


## Joan

> I think it would be best to find 10 people who are on nothing and 10 people who are on other meds already. If anything, it would be interesting to follicept to learn about the combo effects.


 If you need any females with AGA, I will volunteer.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

Wow, this is an active thread!

For what it's worth, I do not think this is a scam.

I find this a bit amusing. They were working on something else when a possible treatment for hair loss suddenly presented itself. I kinda like this, because that is exactly how minoxidil and propecia were discovered as they were intended as treatment for entirely different things.

I remain cautiously optimistic and look forward to seeing the results they post. If things look good, I might just try it very soon!

----------


## bigentries

> Relax man!  Follicept has not even posted results and has not taken anyone's money.  You and Arashi are jumping the gun and parroting the same thing over and over...scam this and scam that.
> 
> We get it, you guys are professional scam fighters!!!   Just relax and see how things play out first. I am convinced Follicept is the real deal.  For those who think otherwise just wait and see...and let us make our own decisions.


 IF you are convinced it's the real deal, then YOU relax and see how things play out first. Your own decisions affect the community greatly, as it just enables scammers as it has happened numerous times in the past

"Wait and see" is useless when the damage has been done. People said the same crap about Liu's Chlorine: "he's not taking anyone's money", "let the results talk", "he has credentials", "a scammer would never be so open", "a scammer wouldn't be giving free trials", "MMS is proven to be safe, so chlorine is safe"

The point of the communities like this is to remain critical and defensive, not to sing praise to everyone who comes here claiming to have a cure.

Seriously, you seem to know too much for a guy with just a month in the forum. Why don't you go back to lurking and come back when it's proven Follicept is absolutely legit?

----------


## Arashi

> "Wait and see" is useless when the damage has been done. People said the same crap about Liu's Chlorine: "he's not taking anyone's money", "let the results talk", "he has credentials", "a scammer would never be so open", "a scammer wouldn't be giving free trials", "MMS is proven to be safe, so chlorine is safe"


 That argument was literally thrown in EVERY SINGLE TIME "wait till we are 100% sure". Look at "Nameless", he still claims, even in this thread, that Dr Nigam was not a scammer and just as much a victim as Wesley, Boldy and Tom. These scammers will never say "Ah you were right, we just wanted to take your money and run". Waiting for that to happen is useless. It will never happen.

Maybe calling Follicept scammers isn't really nice. But even worse are the people hyping this product already, like they KNOW it's going to work. That's MUCH more harmful here: Wesley got hospitalized and literally almost died because of people promoting scammer Dr Nigam. Sure in the end it was his decision to go there and have Nigam inject him his poison, but those hypers and pumpers can't hide behind that. If they hadn't created such a hype, Wesley might not have gone. And no, this time I'm not afraid of people dying, but the financial loss incurred for the community as a whole might be much bigger than people realize.

If everybody just calms down and take a look at the results of our forum tests, then we can all be friends  :Smile:  In the end, everybody's in the same boat here.

----------


## Helix

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8006448
> 
> this is a very old study, but i don't understand some point
> 
> So it states igf-1 is better then insulin preventing hair going into catagen
> without insulin follicle go in catagen faster
> Then it states igf is useless in the presence  10mg of insulin
> then it states growth hormone have no effect if it's not present insulin
> 
> ...


 Very old study about insulin shots and acne. It seems that local insulin shots improved acne.

The Effect of Intralesional Insulin and Glucagon in Acne Vulgaris
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v4...id196345a.html

Acne is associated with baldness and both are associated with insulin resistance. I think that you guys are on a good path. I hope that even if IGF-1 doesn't work you are going to experiment with other things.
Since insulin resistance is strongly associated with hair loss I think that efforts to improve peripheral carbohydrate metabolism in hair follicles will be beneficial for hair if not a cure. I also think that you are ideal team for that. You obviously have experience with diabetes and insulin, and you have a vehicle that will allow you to experiment with small doses and avoid long trials.

----------


## Helix

> If everybody just calms down and take a look at the results of our forum tests, then we can all be friends  In the end, everybody's in the same boat here.


 I have a suggestion for you. What don't you make a FAQ or a tutorial on hair loss scams? Then moderator can make it sticky or something. This way you won't have to repeat the same thing in every post

----------


## bigentries

> That argument was literally thrown in EVERY SINGLE TIME "wait till we are 100% sure". Look at "Nameless", he still claims, even in this thread, that Dr Nigam was not a scammer and just as much a victim as Wesley and Boldy. These scammers will never say "Ah you were right, we just wanted to take your money and run". Waiting for that to happen is useless. It will never happen.
> 
> Maybe calling Follicept scammers isn't really nice. But even worse are the people hyping this product already, like they KNOW it's going to work. That's MUCH more harmful here: Wesley got hospitalized and literally almost died because of people promoting scammer Dr Nigam. 
> 
> If everybody just calms down and take a look at the results of our forum tests, then we can all be friends  In the end, everybody's in the same boat here.


 Yes.

To be absolutely clear: FOLLICEPT HASN'T GIVEN CLEAR SIGNS OF BEING A SCAM

They've entered some dodgy areas, but they shouldn't be ruled out completely

However, the thread has already entered "mark" mode. A lot of people have set the tone for people to be easily fooled when the time arrives.

This has happened in the past. Just in Yoram's example, after the weird hairdresser story, he presented himself, he had the credentials, and as always, people jumped the bandwagon.

What happened when we found out about acupuncture? The russian site? the leeches? Leorex? Fight started because the skeptics were "ruining it for everyone", all dissent was silenced. Those are questions we still don't have answers because his defenders decided he was 100% right and "time would tell"

The thing I found weird about Devon was that he crossed the line when he claimed he would be visiting swooping so he could "kiss his former bald spot". That doesn't seem professional and it's a common tactic to awake an emotional response from supporters when arguments fail.

Vraf was one of many that threatened to have people "kiss his former bald spot" or that he would "laugh while they continue to be bald losers".

----------


## Arashi

> Yes, we will do a small but statistically significant trial under conditions that will allow us to publish data in respected peer-reviewed journals. 
> *My job is not to convince Arashi, or any of you for that matter*. My job is to test efficacy and then help get an effective, safe product to market. The proof is in the pudding, not in Arashi's opinion.


 If you really don't care about convincing us, then why are you even here ? And peer reviewed journals ... That seems to be the new trick nowadays: publish in a peer reviewed magazine and people will believe it. *Fact* is that those 'peer reviewed magazines' dont check if the statements are true and you know that. They just check if the testing methodology makes any sense and if the article is relevant to them. HASCI managed to publish their lies that way too: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/HSTMagic8.html

So again, if you dont care about convincing any of us (like you say), then why are you even here ? Not meaning to take a piss at you, but a serious question. I'm really, honestly very interested in that answer. Thanks.

----------


## stayhopeful

> If you really don't care about convincing us, then why are you even here ? And peer reviewed journals ... That seems to be the new trick nowadays: publish in a peer reviewed magazine and people will believe it. *Fact* is that those 'peer reviewed magazines' dont check if the statements are true and you know that. They just check if the testing methodology makes any sense and if the article is relevant to them. HASCI managed to publish their lies that way too: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/HSTMagic8.html
> 
> So again, if you dont care about convincing any of us (like you say), then why are you even here ? Not meaning to take a piss at you, but a serious question. I'm really, honestly very interested in that answer. Thanks.


 Arashi, bro, I think you need to get some hobbies.  Chill out with the posts bra, it'll be alright.  Let's wait for some news next week

----------


## serenemoon

Arashi,

This is a serious question. I am genuinely curious. Can you give me some example of American scientists with actual credentials, affiliated with legitimate companies/universities who have come on BTT and scammed you guys touting their products?

Thanks!

----------


## just2hairs

> Yes.
> 
> To be absolutely clear: FOLLICEPT HASN'T GIVEN CLEAR SIGNS OF BEING A SCAM......
> 
> ......The thing I found weird about Devon was that he crossed the line when he claimed he would be visiting swooping so he could "kiss his former bald spot". That doesn't seem professional and it's a common tactic to awake an emotional response from supporters when arguments fail.
> 
> Vraf was one of many that threatened to have people "kiss his former bald spot" or that he would "laugh while they continue to be bald losers".


 In one breath you acknowledged Follicept hasn't shown any signs of being a scam, and in another you compare them to the likes of Yoram and Vraf.

If they haven't shown any signs of scam then leave it at that.  Don't go accusing them yet...that's what i mean by wait and see.  Look, i'm not gonna waste time and flood this thread with this nonsense, i'm stopping here.

Btw, go get some sense of humor will ya?!

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi,
> 
> This is a serious question. I am genuinely curious. Can you give me some example of American scientists with actual credentials, affiliated with legitimate companies/universities who have come on BTT and scammed you guys touting their products?
> 
> Thanks!


 American, I dont know but what's the difference with European ? We had Dr Coen Gho talk with Spencer, he's member of several scientific societies and is/was associated with several academic hospitals and universities, just like Stephen Hsu. They even published this article in a peer reviewed scientific magazine where they presented a functional cure (!!) for hairloss, just like Devon wants to do: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/Novembe..._treatment.pdf

----------


## serenemoon

> American, I dont know but what's the difference with European ? We had Dr Coen Gho, he's member of several scientific societies and is/was associated with academic hospitals, just like Stephen Hsu. They even published this article in a peer reviewed magazine, just like Devon wants to do: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/Novembe..._treatment.pdf


 I need American. Cos that kind of shit from official MDs, MD/PhDs does not fly here. Especially not scams. Standards are RIGOROUS here. You would be booted so fast that you wouldn't know what hit you. Eitherways, I am curious. What made Dr. Gho a scam anyway?

----------


## nameless

> Also, let's say it doesn't work. At least Follicept then showed that they weren't afraid to do some independent testing ! So they weren't scammers. Their product failed, but at least they tried and thus should be highly respected ! And I'll be the first to make my well meant apologies for having called them scammers !
> 
> On the other hand, if they don't want a test they can't control, then it makes them even more suspicious.


 1. They haven't ruled out testing by someone at this site.

2. If they don't do it, it will probably be because they don't appreciate you blackmailing them. You don't know how to communicate with others. 

3. You need to stop using the word "scammer" because you apply it far to often. You don't understand how rude, crude, and unreasonable you are. 

4. You wouldn't have to make apologies if you didn't use the word "scam", without any justification, in the first place.

----------


## nameless

> So you're saying you're a scammer?


 
That's exactly what he's saying. Arishi doesn't get it. He attacks people for things that they do not deserve to be attacked for. And I can assure you Devon that half these guys who are defending you here, or more, will be joining Arishi and telling him that he was right if your treatment does not work. Half these guys don't care if you gave an honest effort or not. Half of them will be ditto-ing Arishi just because your treatment doesn't work so I sure hope it does work or else half these guys are going to slander you.

----------


## nameless

> +10000, minus the personal attack


 
I don't think it's a personal attack for him to state the obvious. Arishi is demanding that you send out an experimental chemical to people you have not clinically cleared in other parts of the country, and even in other countries, via the mails. It sounds very reckless and irresponsible. If something were to go wrong the fact that you sent this stuff out to other parts of the country for people you have not clinically cleared could make the news. It could ruin a company's image/reputation. I would not do it. But I'm smart.

----------


## nameless

> Ok, would love to hear about any issue's he has. You promised to first make 100% sure it works. So if there are any safety issue's, then just wait till you have everything ready to market your product (all safety issue's should be resolved by then otherwise you may simply not sell it anyway), we'll select 20 people we all find trustworthy and run that 4 week test/trial then ! What better way than this to promote your product !


 Devon's crazy if he sends an experimental chemical across the country, and even into other countries, to people he has not cleared medically, for the purpose of an experiment through the mails. Even if nobody gets hurt if main stream big pharmacy ever found out he was doing stuff like this they would lose all respect for Follicept. Sending experimental chemicals across the country to people who have not been cleared medically or had baseline biologicals worked up is very amateurish.

----------


## nameless

> This thread has become completely boycotted by Arashi.  Look dude, we all get what you're saying, thank you for your input, now stop drawing out meaningless conversation loops.  OR if you must continue, open your own thread called "follicept BTT trial debate" and leave this thread with integrity.  The greater community would very much appreciate if you did.


 It hasn't been boycotted by Arishi; it's been infected by Arishi. It's what he does whenever an experimental effort starts. The only reason he has been getting away with it is that the odds greatly favor any treatment failing so  he ACCIDENTALLY keeps hitting bulls-eyes. But it isn't because he's so smart; it's because it's just that hard to cure hair loss. I assure you that if a cure came along tomorrow he would call it a scam too.

----------


## nameless

> `You leaving` would be the best reason.


 How about because it's a bad idea to send experimental chemicals across the country, and even to other countries, so that people who have not been medically assessed and cleared can experiment with that experimental chemical even though the company has no ability to physically monitor that subject and properly assess data, including safety data? Is that good enough for you? 

Now you promised to leave if someone came up with a good reason so don't let the door hit you in the @ss on the way out.

----------


## nameless

> Arashi has a pretty solid track record. I'd rather hear his input than comments about people almost crying because the "cure" is here while there is no real evidence yet.


 It's luck that Arishi has a pretty solid track record. He insults all purveyors of new hair loss products and the odds are on his side because it's very hard to cure hair loss so even honest efforts to do so typically fail. The odds are on his side. He jumps the gun and starts false allegations before the evidence is in, and he makes false allegations against people who do not deserve to be denigrated.

----------


## nameless

> We have seen several scammers, some caused people to lose hair (Tom with Nigam) or even almost literally killed people (Wesley with Nigam). So, scammers should be stopped as soon as possible. People also said it in Nigam's case: "Arashi you cant call Nigam a scammer yet, until we have 100% proof". Well I'll tell you what, 100% proof doesnt exist, there are still people who claim Nigam wasn't a scammer (read JarJarbinx'es (="nameless") reply here). But I do know I saved people, not only their money, not only their hair but maybe even literally their lives (google this board for Wesley and Nigam).
> 
> You want to shut me up ? Then show me proof that it works !! Not some proof that nobody can verify, but independent proof !


 
Nigam was not a scammer. You did the same thing to Nigam that you're doing to Follicept. And your unfair attacks against Nigam worked because he could not regrow lots of hair. If Nigam had been able to regrow lots of hair then back then you would have been discovered for the fool that you are. And if Follicept's treatment does not work then most of these guys will be joining you in called Follicept a scammer. And the only reason Nigam could not regrow lots of hair for people is because some of the pieces of the puzzle are missing. Nigam was trying experimental treatments based on the scientific info that is already out in public but that information isn't complete so he never had a chance.

----------


## nameless

> What's that you say?  Previous scammers almost killed people with untested products?  Yet you want Follicept to send an untested treatment out to forum members?  Sounds like great logic there my friend...
> 
> The issues you've had with previous scammers is exactly what Devon/Follicept is trying to avoid by doing a convenience and then local trial.


 + a big 20,0000

----------


## nameless

> People said the same thing to him with others scams, I remember people saying the same thing to Arashi with Nigam and Pilox
> 
> People asked to "sit back and relax" and "we'll know the truth soon enough" to the Chlorine treatment. The same arguments get repeated here.
> You remember what happened? Several people got scarred and the guy secretly sold the treatment to other forum members
> 
> Skeptics wouldn't be so vocal if the supporters wouldn't be so vocal too. People are already claiming to be "TeamFollicept" and admit they don't care if it works or not
> 
> This crap gets repeated again and again with no repercussions. People that pushed scams in the past should be banned for life and conveniently new members using the same distraction tactics should at least get some sort of penalty


 Don't worry! The odds favor Follicept's treatment failing to regrow meaningful lost hair and if that is how this plays out then most of these guys will be badmouthing Devon/Follicept and exalting Arishi. LOL!

----------


## nameless

> Well then instead all those posts "Arashi this" "Arashi that", focus on follicept and I'll focus on the forum test. Everybody happy.


 Oh poo poo. Stop crying Arishi. The odds are in your favor that Follicept won't work because almost everything fails. And if it doesn't work then all these guys who are insulting you today will be hailing you then and they will be joining you in badmouthing Devon/Follicept.

----------


## nameless

> Arashi,
> 
> This is a serious question. I am genuinely curious. Can you give me some example of American scientists with actual credentials, affiliated with legitimate companies/universities who have come on BTT and scammed you guys touting their products?
> 
> Thanks!


 Your question is a loaded question because you intentionally excluded foreign scientists with some degree of credibility. It doesn't have to be American serenemoon. You should rephrase your question and include all developed nation scientists. I'm an American and I assure you we are not the beginning and the end of the world.

----------


## Thinning@30

> I need American. Cos that kind of shit from official MDs, MD/PhDs does not fly here. Especially not scams. Standards are RIGOROUS here. You would be booted so fast that you wouldn't know what hit you.


 I don't see why you would think that.  Con artists with PhDs and MDs from good schools are a dime a dozen in this country.  Just look at all the pseudoscientific crap promoted on TV by Dr. Oz.  Check out Gregory Maguire of Bioregenerative Sciences.  They're still trying to sell their hair loss snake oil.  Check out Thomas Whitfield of Oxford University (yes, I know English, not American).  Check out Provillus.  Check out all those laser devices.  Ever hear of the "see clearly method" that was supposed to improve vision naturally?  Their ads used to play all the time on the radio.  Total scam, but it was years before the authorities did anything about it.

Look, I want Follicept to be real just like you do.  The reality is that it's pretty easy to perpetrate pseudoscientific scams even in relatively well-regulated countries.  Those of us who've been around a while have seen lots of them come and go.  Enforcement tends to be lax and largely complaint-driven.  This is why it is so important to be skeptical of any treatment that is not undergoing formal clinical trials.  Arashi has a very good track record of seeing through B.S. in the past.  One of the strengths of this forum is having skeptical-minded people who can play devil's advocate and guard against our own self-delusions and wishful thinking.

Is Follicept a scam?  I don't know.  Devon seems sincere and nothing would make me happier than having a new treatment come out in a few months.  On the other hand, they're making bold claims and they haven't even tested their product in humans yet.  And it always gets me worried when forum newbies start defending a product.  That said, I think engaging people like Devon is the best way to sort this out.

----------


## Arashi

> I need American. Cos that kind of shit from official MDs, MD/PhDs does not fly here. Especially not scams. Standards are RIGOROUS here. You would be booted so fast that you wouldn't know what hit you. Eitherways, I am curious. What made Dr. Gho a scam anyway?


 I doubt it's much different in the Netherlands than the USA. Thing is that Gho/HASCI got quite lucky. A consortium of doctors and companies sued HASCI/Gho because they also claimed, just like me, it was just BS he was selling. So what they did is they went to the central institute in the Netherlands that regulates all marketing and advertising, called 'de reclame code commissie'. They however ruled TWICE in favour of Gho ! Their reasoning was twice "If your paper gets accepted in a peer reviewed scientific magazine, then it must be true" ! So the first time HASCI won based on that argument of that Advertising regulator. Then, the suing consortium contacted that peer reviewed scientific journal, who then ADMITTED that they did NOT verify the claims HASCI made in the article, but they just checked if the methodology used made sense and if the article was relevant to their journal, that was all ! So, the consortium stepped again to the commision and threw that argument into the mix, yet the commission ruled again: "Once published in a peer reviewed scientific magazine. the content must be assumed to be true". And the second ruling of that commission is always definitive in the Netherlands and the commission will not rule again, so HASCI can just keep selling their scam, which they're still doing. And that it's nonsense, I've proven on my site, this is for example 100% proof it's all a lie: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/partial.html it's just a regular FUE 

(BTW, I havent updated my site but recently a Dutch celeb who went 3 times to HASCI went after that to another clinic, who determined his donor was completely depleted by HASCI and that the only thing left they could do was a body hair transplant. I think I should take the time this weekend to update my site with that, it's good stuff)  :Smile: 

Anyway, typing this all out, maybe those regulators aren't as dumb in the USA as in the Netherlands ...

----------


## nameless

> I doubt it's much different in the Netherlands than the USA. Thing is that Gho/HASCI got quite lucky. A consortium of doctors and companies sued HASCI/Gho because they also claimed, just like me, it was just BS he was selling. So what they did is they went to the central institute in the Netherlands that regulates all marketing and advertising, called 'de reclame code commissie'. They however ruled TWICE in favour of Gho ! Their reasoning was twice "If your paper gets accepted in a peer reviewed scientific magazine, then it must be true" ! So the first time HASCI won based on that argument of that Advertising regulator. Then, the suing consortium contacted that peer reviewed scientific journal, who then ADMITTED that they did NOT verify the claims HASCI made in the article, but they just checked if the methodology used made sense and if the article was relevant to their journal, that was all ! So, the consortium stepped again to the commision and threw that argument into the mix, yet the commission ruled again: "Once published in a peer reviewed scientific magazine. the content must be assumed to be true". And the second ruling of that commission is always definitive in the Netherlands and the commission will not rule again, so HASCI can just keep selling their scam, which they're still doing. And that it's nonsense, I've proven on my site, this is for example 100% proof it's all a lie: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/partial.html it's just a regular FUE 
> 
> (BTW, I havent updated my site but recently a Dutch celeb who went 3 times to HASCI went after that to another clinic, who determined his donor was completely depleted by HASCI and that the only thing left they could do was a body hair transplant. I think I should take the time this weekend to update my site with that, it's good stuff) 
> 
> Anyway, typing this all out, maybe those regulators aren't as dumb in the USA as in the Netherlands ...


 The biggest problem with this is that I have no respect for your opinion.

----------


## serenemoon

> I don't see why you would think that.  Con artists with PhDs and MDs from good schools are a dime a dozen in this country.  Just look at all the pseudoscientific crap promoted on TV by Dr. Oz.  Check out Gregory Maguire of Bioregenerative Sciences.  They're still trying to sell their hair loss snake oil.  Check out Thomas Whitfield of Oxford University (yes, I know English, not American).  Check out Provillus.  Check out all those laser devices.  Ever hear of the "see clearly method" that was supposed to improve vision naturally?  Their ads used to play all the time on the radio.  Total scam, but it was years before the authorities did anything about it.
> 
> Look, I want Follicept to be real just like you do.  The reality is that it's pretty easy to perpetrate pseudoscientific scams even in relatively well-regulated countries.  Those of us who've been around a while have seen lots of them come and go.  Enforcement tends to be lax and largely complaint-driven.  This is why it is so important to be skeptical of any treatment that is not undergoing formal clinical trials.  Arashi has a very good track record of seeing through B.S. in the past.  One of the strengths of this forum is having skeptical-minded people who can play devil's advocate and guard against our own self-delusions and wishful thinking.
> 
> Is Follicept a scam?  I don't know.  Devon seems sincere and nothing would make me happier than having a new treatment come out in a few months.  On the other hand, they're making bold claims and they haven't even tested their product in humans yet.  And it always gets me worried when forum newbies start defending a product.  That said, I think engaging people like Devon is the best way to sort this out.


 .

Fair enough. Honestly though, BTT had two people pop up from far off Asia and scam them. Whose credentials/science they can't even really verify. I remember Nigam from skimming through forums a while ago, and I immediately dismissed him because I could see through the bullshit. What they did was completely different from how Prometheon is. Heck Devon is going to do video updates himself every week! In fact, I think it is a testament to some of the lurker's/rare posters' discerning ability that we decided to join/be more active after Follicept came on. We didn't jump on every bandwagon we saw, but we see genuine potential here. Trust me, and I know Arashi is going to say otherwise and I can't stop that, the new accounts are a good sign in this case. 

Also I don't agree with the saying that "forum newbies" are defending the product. *Honestly, I don't think any of us are sure that this will work*. We hope it will because the science sounds legit, but none of us know and none of us have said that it is the cure or that it definitely will be the next big thing. However, I think what a lot of people are defending Prometheon against is the fact that they are being called "scammers." Anyone here can admit, so far none of us can have reason to call Follicept a scam. So far, they have been open, honest and their stories match up. Hell they are even considering sending you guys some samples to try out. They have earned a level of respect in the scientific community. There is a difference between "believing that Follicept is the holy grail" and "believing in Prometheon's integrity." I will tell you now, calling Prometheon "scammers" is a mistake. Mark my words. But of course, there is no point repeating this again and again. Like I said, the results and the success of the product (IF IT WORKS!!!) will speak for themselves. Also, if the results are bad and the company chooses not to release the product, well that also shows the integrity and honesty of Prometheon Pharma, no?

----------


## serenemoon

> I doubt it's much different in the Netherlands than the USA. Thing is that Gho/HASCI got quite lucky. A consortium of doctors and companies sued HASCI/Gho because they also claimed, just like me, it was just BS he was selling. So what they did is they went to the central institute in the Netherlands that regulates all marketing and advertising, called 'de reclame code commissie'. They however ruled TWICE in favour of Gho ! Their reasoning was twice "If your paper gets accepted in a peer reviewed scientific magazine, then it must be true" ! So the first time HASCI won based on that argument of that Advertising regulator. Then, the suing consortium contacted that peer reviewed scientific journal, who then ADMITTED that they did NOT verify the claims HASCI made in the article, but they just checked if the methodology used made sense and if the article was relevant to their journal, that was all ! So, the consortium stepped again to the commision and threw that argument into the mix, yet the commission ruled again: "Once published in a peer reviewed scientific magazine. the content must be assumed to be true". And the second ruling of that commission is always definitive in the Netherlands and the commission will not rule again, so HASCI can just keep selling their scam, which they're still doing. And that it's nonsense, I've proven on my site, this is for example 100% proof it's all a lie: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/partial.html it's just a regular FUE 
> 
> (BTW, I havent updated my site but recently a Dutch celeb who went 3 times to HASCI went after that to another clinic, who determined his donor was completely depleted by HASCI and that the only thing left they could do was a body hair transplant. I think I should take the time this weekend to update my site with that, it's good stuff) 
> 
> Anyway, typing this all out, maybe those regulators aren't as dumb in the USA as in the Netherlands ...


 
Thanks Arashi. That is really sad that these people are continuing to act like this. Sigh. I hope they get to put a stop to it soon.

----------


## BoSox

Good luck follicept!!!!!!

----------


## nameless

> If you really don't care about convincing us, then why are you even here ? And peer reviewed journals ... That seems to be the new trick nowadays: publish in a peer reviewed magazine and people will believe it. *Fact* is that those 'peer reviewed magazines' dont check if the statements are true and you know that. They just check if the testing methodology makes any sense and if the article is relevant to them. HASCI managed to publish their lies that way too: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/HSTMagic8.html
> 
> So again, if you dont care about convincing any of us (like you say), then why are you even here ? Not meaning to take a piss at you, but a serious question. I'm really, honestly very interested in that answer. Thanks.


 So Arishi, are you saying that Follicept is not allowed to come here? Why do they have to explain why they come here? I have never explained why I come here. You have never been forced to explain why you come here. I don't think anybody HAS TO explain why they come here. 

And you keep accusing them of scamming. Now you're accusing them of scamming by opting to put their results in a peer-reviewed magazine. So are you saying that all the studies in peer reviewed magazines are fraudulent? Are you saying that if hair loss researchers put their results into a peer-reviewed magazine that is the clincher that proves that the treatment is a scam?  

Do you have any idea just how nonsensical your posts are? It's amazing to me that anybody respects you.

----------


## nameless

> I doubt it's much different in the Netherlands than the USA. Thing is that Gho/HASCI got quite lucky. A consortium of doctors and companies sued HASCI/Gho because they also claimed, just like me, it was just BS he was selling. So what they did is they went to the central institute in the Netherlands that regulates all marketing and advertising, called 'de reclame code commissie'. They however ruled TWICE in favour of Gho ! Their reasoning was twice "If your paper gets accepted in a peer reviewed scientific magazine, then it must be true" ! So the first time HASCI won based on that argument of that Advertising regulator. Then, the suing consortium contacted that peer reviewed scientific journal, who then ADMITTED that they did NOT verify the claims HASCI made in the article, but they just checked if the methodology used made sense and if the article was relevant to their journal, that was all ! So, the consortium stepped again to the commision and threw that argument into the mix, yet the commission ruled again: "Once published in a peer reviewed scientific magazine. the content must be assumed to be true". And the second ruling of that commission is always definitive in the Netherlands and the commission will not rule again, so HASCI can just keep selling their scam, which they're still doing. And that it's nonsense, I've proven on my site, this is for example 100% proof it's all a lie: http://www.hasci-exposed.com/partial.html it's just a regular FUE 
> 
> (BTW, I havent updated my site but recently a Dutch celeb who went 3 times to HASCI went after that to another clinic, who determined his donor was completely depleted by HASCI and that the only thing left they could do was a body hair transplant. I think I should take the time this weekend to update my site with that, it's good stuff) 
> 
> Anyway, typing this all out, maybe those regulators aren't as dumb in the USA as in the Netherlands ...


 So let me make sure I have this straight - are you saying that if researchers put their study results into peer-reviewed journals that's the clincher that proves that the researchers are scammers?

LOL! 

It's amazing that there is even one person at this site that respects the things that you say.

LMAO!!!

----------


## Clion1995

You can't even talk about Dr. Oz in this forum. Scientific integrity does not allow it. And only a sensible person would buy this product only if it works. And even if they tampered with the data (slim chances), and you used the product and everyone found it was fake, the company would be bashed by the scientific community and their funding would go to shit. It really is common sense.

----------


## Keki

> Very old study about insulin shots and acne. It seems that local insulin shots improved acne.
> 
> The Effect of Intralesional Insulin and Glucagon in Acne Vulgaris
> http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v4...id196345a.html
> 
> Acne is associated with baldness and both are associated with insulin resistance. I think that you guys are on a good path. I hope that even if IGF-1 doesn't work you are going to experiment with other things.
> Since insulin resistance is strongly associated with hair loss I think that efforts to improve peripheral carbohydrate metabolism in hair follicles will be beneficial for hair if not a cure. I also think that you are ideal team for that. You obviously have experience with diabetes and insulin, and you have a vehicle that will allow you to experiment with small doses and avoid long trials.


 Thx for the info, i wish i could use this thread to better study and understand igf and how can we improve is effectiveness once out, but some people like to watch the world burn, no costructive behvior just useless spam, you know with the amount of knowledge in the community i think we could improve follicept or at least give them same good idea but no, let's focus on this retard scammer vs not scammer and the retard analogy with people who got scarred and hospitalized by criminal

----------


## ShookOnes

inb4 scam. and another to add to the dust!

----------


## NOhairNOlife

> Thx for the info, i wish i could use this thread to better study and understand igf and how can we improve is effectiveness once out, but some people like to watch the world burn, no costructive behvior just useless spam, you know with the amount of knowledge in the community i think we could improve follicept or at least give them same good idea but no, let's focus on this retard scammer vs not scammer and the retard analogy with people who got scarred and hospitalized by criminal


 This +1000000

Arashi, STOP, STOP, STOP... 
I'm fn sick and tired of reading your recycled crap. I check this thread a lot and all I see is this guy ( Arashi) posting the same crap. ENOUGH...  You're like a child that needs to always have the last word. 

Let's keep this thread on track....

----------


## Arashi

> Thx for the info, i wish i could use this thread to better study and understand igf and how can we improve is effectiveness once out


 The only one who has been posting scientific articles and info in this thread, has been Swooping and you didnt care about his info. No, it was all wrong, all irrelevant, cause it didnt coalign with your hope that this stuff is going to actually work.

----------


## Arashi

> Let's keep this thread on track....


 If you want to keep it on track, then DO that ! But all you shills post is "Arashi this, Arashi that" and then complain we're 30 pages further.

----------


## dus

> Please do like me friends: *Alert Arashi* to modération (small warning triangle bottom left on his post).


 Please excuse my French but f*ck you. You are not a friend. History has shown that open debate is vital when it comes new "cures" and "procedures".

----------


## Arashi

> He gave some false informations to discredit Follicept before seeing photos/studies/sample test. For instance, he spoke about a shampoo which is for sell on Amazon.com (with tea called Camellix) from an other Dr Stephen Hsu (you can see the homonim from an other University: http://www.gru.edu/dentalmedicine/re...culty/shsu.php ).


 The only one giving false information here is YOU. I didn't 'give' that information about that shampoo, that was posted by this guy: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post198764

I merely said I read the whole thread and made a summary of what I had read. So the only one posting false info is YOU. I never claimed it to be true, I just said that that was my summary of the thread.

You want this forum for you alone, you guys only want positive news about Follicept (and I can only guess about the reasons why). Well guess what, this is a forum, everybody's opinion is welcome. If we only had people like you, hyping every new product out there, I'm sure we'd have seen the first dead forum visitor by now. Wesley ALMOST got to that after he got hospitalized cause his body was in a shock because his immunesystem was triggered in a really bad way by injections dr Nigam gave him.

General rule here should be: expect ANY new product to be a scam, untill proven otherwise. If you do it the other way around, somebody WILL eventually die. Either of induced cancer (by for example some growth factor associated with cancer) or from other reasons, like in Wesleys case, a reaction of his immune system. And I'm not even talking about the tons of other horrible problems we've seen so far because of people using products hyped here on this forum (like scarring, ingrown hairs, sickness, killing their own follicles and big financial losses)

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> Please excuse my French but *f*ck you.* You are not a friend. History has shown that open debate is vital when it comes new "cures" and "procedures".


 What a beautiful debate! You are the bad cliche of what we think about anglo-saxons: no culture, no complexity in the language, no shade.

----------


## dus

> What a beautiful debate! You are the bad cliche of what we think about anglo-saxons: no culture, no complexity in the language, no shade.


 I'm Dutch. Why bring up "debate" now after you proposed to end it? Or are you already surrendering?

----------


## Keki

Anyway every single working stuff from minox, to adenosine to propecia seems to increase igf, ignoring the increase of igf in dermal papilla means 100% hairgrowth it's silly, the question is,  will exogenouse igf work? how did they choose the exact quantity of igf in follicept? Id like to know that, how can they be sure is enough, and about this morning how can we decrease the insulin resistence so it may work better, maybe this is the real key to the cure

----------


## FrenchNewbie

You insult me and you want me to say: "oh ok, he said me "f*ck you", it's fine". And dutch are... anglo-saxons. Angles came from Holland and south of Danemark dude.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> Anyway every single working stuff from minox, to adenosine to propecia seems to increase igf, ignoring the increase of igf in dermal papilla means 100% hairgrowth it's silly, the question is,  will exogenouse igf work? how did they choose the exact quantity of igf in follicept? Id like to know that, how can they be sure is enough, and about this morning how can we decrease the insulin resistence so it may work better, maybe this is the real key to the cure


 I think they have tested it on some humans before to be so confident. They know their product and they know that this is not dangerous for health. So i think they have tested it without protocole. This is an assumption.

----------


## efedrez

Devon,

Regardless of the results, are you guys planning to be on the 9th world congress for hair research in Miami later this years

Not only would add more credibility to your project in the eyes of the pessimist but also, I'm sure your deliver method will give a lot to talk to the rest of the scientific community

----------


## Keki

> I think they have tested that on some humans before to be so confident. They know their product and they know that this is not dangerous for health. So i think that they have tested it without protocole.


 I don't think so, i guess they used a mathematic algorithm to guess the amount needed to have some effect, i could be wrong but some product use this process, sometimes it isn't enough look at bimatoprost, for this reason there are 2 phase in treatment, to know the right amount for the desired result, this is an all in trial, the chance this will work are low even if the igf and insulin are the good path for a working treatment

----------


## Arashi

> Devon,
> 
> Regardless of the results, are you guys planning to be on the 9th world congress for hair research in Miami later this years
> 
> Not only would add more credibility to your project in the eyes of the pessimist but also, I'm sure your deliver method will give a lot to talk to the rest of the scientific community


 Anyone can speak at a conference. Heck, they even scheduled dr Nigam to speak last year at WCHR 2014 ! I emailed them with some info on Dr Nigam and then they canceled his scheduled speaking time based on the proof of his scams I had sent them. But if I hadnt done it, he had probably spoken at last years conference. Just saying, speaking at a conference, who cares. We need PROOF.

----------


## dus

> You insult me and you want me to say: "oh ok, he said me "f*ck you", it's fine". And dutch are... anglo-saxons. Angles came from Holland and south of Danemark dude.


 Your famous French arrogance is actually quite funny.... bashing an entire culture because somebody attacks you. You actually want to BAN a trusted member on this forum because you disagree with him. And no, Dutch culture is not Anglo Saxon.

----------


## dus

> I didn't want to ban him. I like debates.


 lol.

----------


## Arashi

> I didn't want to ban him. I like debates. Keki gave us an argument. But arashi no, he just speaks by insults (for me "scammer" is an insult to a scientist).


 First of all, I NEVER directly called HIM a scammer. I did say that I highly believe all this is a scam though. You might say that's exactly the same, I do see a difference in tone. I gave very specific and detailed info why I think this:

1) Supposedly they have a new delivery method, which would be a true revolution in the history of medicine. Their technology thus should be worth hundreds of millions, more likely even billions. They should be talking to the biggest pharamacies out there, closing contracts and whatsmore. Yet they couldnt find any substantial investors at all and are now talking to us baldies here, on a hairloss forum
2) Several scientific articles show that elevated IGF-1 levels might lead to hair LOSS, not hair increase. Yeah there are also some articles that it might lead to some thicker hair, but I have seen none that talk about any substancial increase in follicle count
3) People have been injecting IGF-1 for al LOOONG time. Injections are just as effective. Even Devon agreed to that, he called their method more efficient, not more effective. Injecting delivers it just as good to the follicle. We've seen no results. Sure there are some occasional reports on some fora of people who claim to have had results, but there are as many reports of people who claim to have grown hair by putting their sperm on their scalps.
4) Tons of new accounts, coming out of nowhere, all hyping this product, fighting for it like their lives depent on it and attacking anyone who even dares to bring up some skepticism. I've been on this forum for a while but this I have never seen before. It's HIGHLY suspicious the least.

And even then. ANYbody who comes to this forum, claiming they have a cure or new product, should at least understand the financial loss, disappointments, sickness and what's more previous scammers have brought to this forum. They should be able to understand our skepticism and see where it comes from. And they should be even MORE interested in proving the skeptical people wrong. Devon already stated, he doesnt even care about convincing the sceptics. 

It just all doesnt add up. Like swooping stated: I smell fish.

----------


## bananana

aaaand here we go again, last 30 pages without one meaningful post. 
(except Devon's)

Thank you guys.

----------


## GSD

> I think they have tested it on some humans before to be so confident. They know their product and they know that this is not dangerous for health. So i think they have tested it without protocole. This is an assumption.


 +1

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> First of all, I NEVER directly called HIM a scammer. I did say that I highly believe all this is a scam though. You might say that's exactly the same, I do see a difference in tone.


 I can understand this nuance. But the multiplication of this word, kill it. 

1) Devon said that they are speaking with big pharma. I work with a ruche of labs in France (not in Pharma). I know a little bit this domain. In France, we have the biggest pharma sector in Europe (perhaps the second in the world). Finding investors for small laboratories is so complex. There is a big competition. Hair is not a priority for investors. It's a very small part of the pharma market. Same thing with diabete.  

2) They have pretty good arguments which says the opposite. We will see.

3) Injection is not as effective. Cause if you have the best vector (like this gel) you can cover entire scalp on all pores or bulbs. To have the same result you have to do day by day very small injections with syringue on millions of points. 

4) The moderation could verify that. But if you go on french/german/italian/spanish forum, you will see big topics. The hypocenter is this topic. So it's normal. I came here after reading the french topic. 

I'm ok with your conclusion, but you go too fast on the word "scammer". You can be skeptic, but please give them the benefit of doubt.

----------


## Arashi

> I can understand this nuance. But the multiplication of this word, kill it. 
> 
> 1) Devon said that they are speaking with big pharma. I work with a ruche of labs in France (not in Pharma). I know a little bit this domain. In France, we have the biggest pharma sector in Europe (perhaps the second in the world). Finding investors for small laboratories is so complex. There is a big competition. Hair is not a priority for investors.


 I work in finance myself for over 15 years. The investment climate has never been THIS good as it's now. People having money in bank accounts lose more than ever, with even negative interest, last week even the german bonds went down to NEGATIVE interest !! Meaning you now have to PAY money to lend it to germany. So nobody wants money in the bank, everybody WANTS to invest and is looking for the craziest, thiniest opportunity to pump money into some new idea. Yet, even in this climate, the only money they could raise was some pocket change. The market NEVER is wrong. If the idea is good, the money follows. Really, this alone is for me reason enough to assume it's all crap.




> 2) They have pretty good arguments which says the opposite. We will see.


 Like ? Link me just 1 single scientific publication that shows improvement in follicle count similar to what minox can do.




> 3) Injection is not as effective. Cause if you have the best vector (like this gel) you can cover entire scalp on all pores. To have the same result you have to do day by day small injection with syringue on millions of points.


 People HAVE been injecting on a daily basis. Sure it's MUCH more complicated and way less *EFFICIENT* but the results should be there. They're not.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> I work in finance myself for over 15 years. The investment climate has never been THIS good as it's now. People having money in bank accounts lose more than ever, with even negative interest, last week even the german bonds went down to NEGATIVE interest !! Meaning you now have to PAY money to lend it to germany. So nobody wants money in the bank, everybody WANTS to invest and is looking for the craziest, thiniest opportunity to pump money into some new idea. Yet, even in this climate, the only money they could raise was some pocket change. The market NEVER is wrong. If the idea is good, the money follows. Really, this alone is for me reason enough to assume it's all crap.


 You are speaking about finance. We will not speak about buying obligations or action or gold? Pharma sector is very very specific. You could have a lot of money in a part of this sector (like cancerology) and no money on a other part. So the competition is really hard for a lot of small labs which has a good product. But i'm not a specialist of pharma. I can say that in my domain, money is relative cause their are sectors of market which are "fashionable" and other not.

----------


## Arashi

> You are speaking about finance. We will not speak about buying obligations or action or gold? Pharma sector is very very specific. You could have a lot of money in a part of this sector (like cancerology) and no money on a other part. So the competition is really hard for a lot of small labs which has a good product. But i'm not a specialist of pharma. I can say that in my domain, money is relative cause their are sectors of market which are "fashionable" and other not.


 Trust me, everybody is looking for that chicken with golden eggs. If you have it and show it, people WILL want to buy it. Especially in this climate of negative interests. I find it really really weird that instead of trying to sell their method for billions of dollars, they come to this forum to ... yeah to what actually ? Devon claims he's not interested in convincing us ... So I don't even really get what he's doing here at all ...

----------


## serenemoon

> Trust me, everybody is looking for that chicken with golden eggs. If you have it and show it, people WILL want to buy it. Especially in this climate of negative interests. I find it really really weird that instead of trying to sell their method for billions of dollars, they come to this forum to ... yeah to what actually ? Devon claims he's not interested in convincing us ... So I don't even really get what he's doing here at all ...


 Read again.

"My job is not to convince Arashi, or any of you for that matter. My job is to test efficacy and then help get an effective, safe product to market. The proof is in the pudding, not in Arashi's opinion." - Devon.

He is here to answer questions due to the request of a BTT user.

----------


## Arashi

> Read again.
> 
> "My job is not to convince Arashi, or any of you for that matter. My job is to test efficacy and then help get an effective, safe product to market. The proof is in the pudding, not in Arashi's opinion." - Devon.


 His job is not to convince me or anybody else here. He wants to get the product to the market instead (without convincing anybody). So, then what is he doing here exactly in your opinion ?

----------


## serenemoon

> His job is not to convince me or anybody else here. He wants to get the product to the market instead (without convincing anybody). So, then what is he doing here exactly in your opinion ?


 "Arashi, or any of you." We are not the only ones in the world looking for hair loss treatment. If their product is good, people will buy the treatment.

I told you, he is here to answer questions because someone requested it. Being honest and transparent.

----------


## Arashi

Look, ask yourself, what would you do ? You have developed this new revolutionary system, that can bring large molecules through the dermis without them going systematic (or in such a small amount that it doesnt matter). This is gold. What do you do ? I wouldn't even have the TIME to visit a forum ! I would be calling every single pharma and hedge fund out there, talking to all of them, seeing which one wants to pay the most. But here's Devon, failed to attract any substantial investor, joining a forum for baldies to ... yeah that's still a mystery to me, what exactly.

----------


## Arashi

> If their product is good, people will buy the treatment.


 But that's exactly my point. If the product is good, no need to come to this forum at all !! The whole world will know about it. If it really works, you can travel to the smallest town anywhere in the world, ask the local dermatologist and he'll know about it (like they know about fin and minox).

----------


## serenemoon

> Look, ask yourself, what woud you do ? You had developed this new revolurionary system, that can bring large molecules through the dermis without going them systematic. This is gold. What do you do ? I wouldn't even have the TIME to visit a forum ! I would be calling every single pharma and investment fund out there, talking to all of them, seeing which one wants to pay the most. But here's Devon, joining a forum for baldies to ... yeah that's still a mystery to me, what exactly.


 Honestly Arashi, I don't know how many ways to tell you this. They are already doing this. They are already doing this. They are already doing this. The dude is in the lab into the late hours. He is extremely busy. If he wants to do something, he will find the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpHrnNZxRL4

----------


## Arashi

> Honestly Arashi, I don't know how many ways to tell you this. They are already doing this. They are already doing this. They are already doing this. The dude is in the lab into the late hours. 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpHrnNZxRL4


 Would you have time to come to this forum if you were onto something real ?

----------


## serenemoon

> But that's exactly my point. If the product is good, no need to come to this forum at all !! The whole world will know about it. If it really works, you can travel to the smallest town anywhere in the world, ask the local dermatologist and he'll know about it (like they know about fin and minox).


 Dude. They came here because someone ASKED. Do you hear me? Someone asked, please come answer questions. THey don't need to! Absolutely not! And they know it. There is a lot happening behind the scenes. Let us consider ourselves lucky that he is answering questions, eh?

----------


## Arashi

> Dude. They came here because someone ASKED. Do you hear me? Someone asked, please come answer questions. THey don't need to! Absolutely not! And they know it. There is a lot happening behind the scenes. Let us consider ourselves lucky that he is answering questions, eh?


 Ok. I see this is useless. To you all this makes perfect sense. The company with maybe the biggest invention of the year (and maybe the biggest invention EVER regarding hair loss) has all the time to come to this forum and chat to us baldies and can't find any decent investors. Hedge funds rather PAY money to lend their money to germany than to pump it into the biggest breakthrough in hairloss history. They're all idiots, right. It all makes perfect sense to you.

To me it's almost 100% sure scam. We'll leave it there.

----------


## serenemoon

> Would you have time to come to this forum if you were onto something real ?


 LMAO. You are acting like that is all he does, all day. He is in the business side of things. He is going to be communicating with different entities all day long.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> To me it's almost 100% sure scam.


 Ok. It's your opinion. We respect it. So now, why do you continue? 30 pages with the same word. Now could we talk about this technology. Let informed people talk about IGF1. The possible limits if it works (if it could work ad vitam eternam or not)... Etc, etc.

----------


## Arashi

> Ok. It's your opinion. We respect it. So now, why do you continue? 30 pages with the same word. Now could we talk about this technology. Let informed people talk about IGF1. The possible limits if it works (if it could work ad vitam eternam or not)... Etc, etc.


 Read back the thread. You started attacking me and I responded. I could have chosen to not respond of course. Or you could not have initiated the attack. Probably a bit more efficient, what do you think ?

----------


## serenemoon

Alright, it is done now. We say not scam. Arashi says scam. Come the end of the year, we will see who is right. Let's not touch on this topic until results start coming. Now, we wait.

----------


## efedrez

> Anyone can speak at a conference. Heck, they even scheduled dr Nigam to speak last year at WCHR 2014 ! I emailed them with some info on Dr Nigam and then they canceled his scheduled speaking time based on the proof of his scams I had sent them. But if I hadnt done it, he had probably spoken at last years conference. Just saying, speaking at a conference, who cares. We need PROOF.


 The question is directed to Devon and the Follicept team.

Arashi, 

I used to respect your contributions but at this point your are limiting my right, our right, to be properly informed about a potential treatment and this is unacceptable 

It's to everyone best interest to know as much as possible and having Devon presenting in front of a group of scientists will give us a much better oppinion than what we can achieve from a group of guys in the Internet 

We have the right to judge for our self and not from a faceless guys on an Internet forum desperate to prove he is right

----------


## Arashi

> The question is directed to Devon and the Follicept team.
> 
> Arashi, 
> 
> I used to respect your contributions but at this point your are limiting my right, our right, to be properly informed about a potential treatment and this is unacceptable 
> 
> It's to everyone best interest to know as much as possible and having Devon presenting in front of a group of scientists will give us a much better oppinion than what we can achieve from a group of guys in the Internet 
> 
> We have the right to judge for our self and not from a faceless guys on an Internet forum desperate to prove he is right


  You only want to read Devon's post. It's easy put anyone's post you don't care about,  like mine,  on ignore.  That's why that function exists.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> Read back the thread. You started attacking me and I responded. I could have chosen to not respond of course. Or you could not have initiated the attack. Probably a bit more efficient, what do you think ?


 What a joke. You came before me and you was speaking about "scamming, scamming, scamming". I reacted about that. Ok, i shut up and let specialists speaking about this new technology. You should do the same thing.

----------


## Arashi

> What a joke. You came before me and you was speaking about "scamming, scamming, scamming". I reacted about that. Ok, i shut up and let specialists speaking about this new technology. You should do the same thing.


  You created a post with lies,  serious accusations, even petitioning to have me banned and you expect me not to react...  Ok.

----------


## serenemoon

Frenchnewbie, don't even respond, my friend. Just..moving forward.

----------


## follicept

> How about because it's a bad idea to send experimental chemicals across the country, and even to other countries, so that people who have not been medically assessed and cleared can experiment with that experimental chemical even though the company has no ability to physically monitor that subject and properly assess data, including safety data? Is that good enough for you? 
> 
> Now you promised to leave if someone came up with a good reason so don't let the door hit you in the @ss on the way out.


 Strong argument, counselor.

----------


## Hairismylife

Arashi doesnt want it to work maybe because he has had a HT. 
Or he works for some HT doctors.
Hey everybody please listen.  Ignore him, dont respond to his post.
He likes argue, he feels happy when so many ppl reacts.
It's the ignoring of him and chatting among ourselves that can make him feel bored and leave.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Look, ask yourself, what would you do ? You have developed this new revolutionary system, that can bring large molecules through the dermis without them going systematic (or in such a small amount that it doesnt matter). This is gold. What do you do ? I wouldn't even have the TIME to visit a forum ! I would be calling every single pharma and hedge fund out there, talking to all of them, seeing which one wants to pay the most. But here's Devon, failed to attract any substantial investor, joining a forum for baldies to ... yeah that's still a mystery to me, what exactly.


 They are going to release results in the next two weeks. what is your plan? To just keep complaining about having no proof for the next two weeks?

To me, there isn't much to talk about until we get results. Then we can scrutinize said results (as I and everyone else plan to). Up until then, what else is there to do?

It seems backwards to complain about no proof when they've given a timeline for releasing proof (and that timeline is YEARS shorter than other products timelines for releasing proof). It's like arashi is desperately trying to fill the forum with nonsense and brain-dead discussion up while he has a 2-week vacuum.

I just don't get the reason for trying to defame and slander some new company who has been pretty open to divulging information... and is working diligently to get some testing done and results posted... what else can we ask for? Seems like a pretty optimal situation.

Essentially, to arashi, everything is a scam that must get shut down immmidiately. Don't speak unless you have FDA-approved trial results with tricho-scans. Give the forum ZERO information until then. Is that really  the ideal situation? I don't think so.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Read back the thread. You started attacking me and I responded. I could have chosen to not respond of course. Or you could not have initiated the attack. Probably a bit more efficient, what do you think ?


 If all successful companies automatically sell out to "big pharma", then how come there are so many bio companies that  exist that... aren't big pharma? 

Maybe because not everyone takes that path?

----------


## stayhopeful

Arashi, bro, please do me, do us all, and yourself, a ginormous favor.

Really, really think hard about it.  You taking the time to make paragraph after paragraph, post after post, how is that beneficial to you or your message at all?  Repeating something a million times doesn't convey the point any better, or change the fact that we are all waiting for trials next week.  In reality, then, you are just throwing the most precious resource, time, out the window.  You are throwing your most precious resource out the window.  Go chill out bro, pick up a hobby or something, and come back here once Follicept makes claims about their trial or tries to sell something, for your own sake

----------


## efedrez

> Arashi doesnt want it to work maybe because he has had a HT. 
> Or he works for some HT doctors.
> Hey everybody please listen.  Ignore him, dont respond to his post.
> He likes argue, he feels happy when so many ppl reacts.
> It's the ignoring of him and chatting among ourselves that can make him feel bored and leave.


 Good point, will take your advice!

----------


## just2hairs

> Arashi doesnt want it to work maybe because he has had a HT. 
> Or he works for some HT doctors.
> Hey everybody please listen.  Ignore him, dont respond to his post.
> He likes argue, he feels happy when so many ppl reacts.
> It's the ignoring of him and chatting among ourselves that can make him feel bored and leave.


 +1

----------


## Arashi

> To me, there isn't much to talk about until we get results. Then we can scrutinize said results (as I and everyone else plan to). Up until then, what else is there to do?


 First of all, you're asking me a question (actually a few) so I assume you're not going to throw in the "why are you here" in the next post, right ? So then your answer to your questions: we should demand PROOF !!! You're saying that in 2 weeks we'll get results. What kind of results will that be ? That will be some pics released by the company, that no one will be able to verify. What good is that ?

On the other hand, a forum test like I proposed is simply THE proof we all need !! We're all in the same boat, we all want HARD proof. Then demand that forum test ! Cause Devon already is making it sound like he's not going to do it ("yeah I'm not here to convince Arashi or any of you guys"). Of course he doesn't want to do it, cause that's the only situation he can't control. It's the only 100% hard proof that's possible. If you were sincere about getting PROOF, you'd demand the same and nothing else.  "Sorry, I was wrong Arashi, and you had it right, time after time after time".

I'd say, a bit lower tone from you after all those time you were wrong, and I was right, might be in place this time.

----------


## Winston

Please take the time to read our Forum Posting Rules & Terms of Service. Members are responsible to learn and follow all rules and policies in order to participate on this forum. Violation of any of our polices will place the violator's account into moderation for evaluation without any prior notification. Incendiary, promotional, abusive, false, defamatory or agenda driven posts, or posts debasing public or limited public figures, physicians, companies and organizations will be removed from this forum. The determination of a forum violation is at the sole discretion of our moderators.

If the thread continues in this vein it will be locked.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.

----------


## nameless

> His job is not to convince me or anybody else here. He wants to get the product to the market instead (without convincing anybody). So, then what is he doing here exactly in your opinion ?


 How about he comes here for the same reason as Dr. Garnder came here and you didn't have any problem with Dr. Gardner coming here so why do you have an issue with Follicept coming here?

----------


## Keki

> Incendiary, promotional, abusive, false, defamatory or agenda driven posts, or posts debasing public or limited public figures, physicians, companies and organizations will be removed from this forum. The determination of a forum violation is at the sole discretion of our moderators.
> 
> If the thread continues in this vein it will be locked.
> 
> .


 You anticipated me, but before lock this thread which is one of the most important and followed in this years i would suggest the ban hammer before people hurt themself and get in serious trouble, here people are passionate because it involve their body, their bad experiences with scammers and their hope but it this thread connect many national community and we will lose A LOT, thousands of people want simply have an interaction and some update, will be very sad to cut this connection for just 6-7 users while the majority have no interest in flaming

----------


## Spaniards

Hey Devon! Don´t forget to visit Spain because you will always be welcomed here, besides women are prettier in our country xD. We will drink some beers in order to celebrate your accomplishment. We are eager to give you money when you will launch indiegogo, but will you send us some doses here? Right now we need a champion who saves us because we have waited for so long, so please stay strong and keep sharing the good news with us.   

Greetings from Madrid, the capital of fiesta!

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> Please take the time to read our Forum Posting Rules & Terms of Service. Members are responsible to learn and follow all rules and policies in order to participate on this forum. Violation of any of our polices will place the violator's account into moderation for evaluation without any prior notification. Incendiary, promotional, abusive, false, defamatory or agenda driven posts, or posts debasing public or limited public figures, physicians, companies and organizations will be removed from this forum. The determination of a forum violation is at the sole discretion of our moderators.
> 
> If the thread continues in this vein it will be locked.
> 
> Thank you for your understanding in this matter.


 Thank you for recalling the rules. Thank you to let us know the results Follicept will have.

Bienvenue from France to our friends from other european countries like Spain, Germany, Italy or Netherlands. If Devon can't find his place here, i think that other forums in Europe will be happy to see him.

----------


## Arashi

> How about he comes here for the same reason as Dr. Garnder came here and you didn't have any problem with Dr. Gardner coming here so why do you have an issue with Follicept coming here?


 I loved dr Gardner coming here indeed, he was the best thing ever happened to this board. A real scientist who wanted to eleborate on his work after he met Desmond on the WCHR 2014 and accepted Desmond's invititation to elaborate a bit on the progress of the hardcore science they're doing. I was a little less excited about some other dubious characters and therapies that you promoted here. If you still can't figure out why that was, then well, can't help you there mate.

----------


## nameless

> I loved dr Gardner coming here indeed, he was the best thing ever happened to this board. A real scientist who wanted to eleborate on his work after he met Desmond on the WCHR 2014 and accepted Desmond's invititation to elaborate a bit on the progress of the hardcore science they're doing. I was a little less excited about some other dubious characters and therapies that you promoted here. If you still can't figure out why that was, then well, can't help you there mate.


 Well you're wrong about how Gardner found this site. Gardner stumbled on this site. And Follicept comes here for the same reason Gardner did - he found about us and he's interested in us since he's working on a potential treatment for what ails us.

----------


## Illusion

> Look, ask yourself, what would you do ? You have developed this new revolutionary system, that can bring large molecules through the dermis without them going systematic (or in such a small amount that it doesnt matter). This is gold. What do you do ? I wouldn't even have the TIME to visit a forum ! I would be calling every single pharma and hedge fund out there, talking to all of them, seeing which one wants to pay the most. But here's Devon, failed to attract any substantial investor, joining a forum for baldies to ... yeah that's still a mystery to me, what exactly.


 Yeah you do have a point. If I recall correctly, Follicept is talking to big pharmacies at the moment but I do find it weird that Devon has come to this forum and has even answered questions in depth. 

Not that I mind ofcourse but it is a bit weird. And no, he probably doesn't spend THAT much time on the forums but still, the fact that he has come to this forum is a bit strange. I've never seen a legit company do that but then again I haven't even been a full year around on this forum so what do I know... I believe Devon has adressed this by saying that Promotheon is "different" from other companies and that they value close contact with the customers or something like that. Doesn't sound super legit but hey, who knows.

----------


## Arashi

> Well you're wrong about how Gardner found this site. Gardner stumbled on this site. And Follicept comes here for the same reason Gardner did - he found about us and he's interested in us since he's working on a potential treatment for what ails us.


 Yeah that's what he said here, that it was a coincidence, but Desmond talked to him on WCHR 2014 and asked him to answer some questions here. Ask Desmond if you don't believe me. Anyway, doesn't even matter. Fact is, he was awesome, no hidden agenda, just a brilliant scientist fascinated by his work, who loved to share his knowledge. I'm hoping he'll come back for another round this year after the WCHR (not sure if he's scheduled though ?) for an update on their research progress. I'm going to invite him anyway here. 

Anyway, let's leave dr Gardner out of this, let's focus on Follicept and how to obtain proof we can trust. That's what we all want, or should want anyway.

----------


## nameless

> Yeah you do have a point. If I recall correctly, Follicept is talking to big pharmacies at the moment but I do find it weird that Devon has come to this forum and has even answered questions in depth. 
> 
> Not that I mind ofcourse but it is a bit weird. And no, he probably doesn't spend THAT much time on the forums but still, the fact that he has come to this forum is a bit strange. I've never seen a legit company do that but then again I haven't even been a full year around on this forum so what do I know... I believe Devon has adressed this by saying that Promotheon is "different" from other companies and that they value close contact with the customers or something like that. Doesn't sound super legit but hey, who knows.


 I found it peculiar initially as well. I even asked about it. But then I thought about Gardner coming here and Follicept's explanation sounds as reasonable as Gardner's explanation. We have Gardner's example which shows that innocently meeting up with us does happen. And Follicept continues to post here for the same reason as Garnder did - they both work on hair loss treatments so we are of interest to them.

----------


## Arashi

> Yeah you do have a point. If I recall correctly, Follicept is talking to big pharmacies at the moment but I do find it weird that Devon has come to this forum and has even answered questions in depth. 
> 
> Not that I mind ofcourse but it is a bit weird. And no, he probably doesn't spend THAT much time on the forums but still, the fact that he has come to this forum is a bit strange. I've never seen a legit company do that but then again I haven't even been a full year around on this forum so what do I know... I believe Devon has adressed this by saying that Promotheon is "different" from other companies and that they value close contact with the customers or something like that. Doesn't sound super legit but hey, who knows.


 It's very weird the least. But I was hoping we could forget about that and make a new start and focus on our COMMON goal: get the proof we need to see if this is for real or not. We're all in the same boat here, it should be possible to set our differences aside and strive for the same thing.

----------


## breakbot

I think Arashi is right. They can send this product to some old members. It's not big deal for them to send o product which is not useless to some people. 
Or they afraid of something?

----------


## Illusion

Yeah you're right Arashi, my bad.

Let's stay on topic this time. No need for derails about legitimacy  :Smile:

----------


## EXprettyboy

Sdsurfin brought the forum to the attention of Devon, so he could discuss their proprietary technology that will deliver igf1 to the follicle by transdermal means. *All anybody can say at this point is that the science looks promising, and that it's definitely something that should be trialled on humans.*

We are privileged to have access to such a patient and informative individual who is willing to share all the details of progress, every step of the way.

The majority of people understand this and appreciate this fact.

To the people who insist on making demands of this company, and are being abusive when there really is no call for it,
*Please consider the fact that most of us just want to see this play out, and you are jeopardising that, either by pushing Devon to the point where he has had enough of taking insults and repeating himself, or by having the thread locked by moderator"*

----------


## serenemoon

Devon, I know that it was mentioned that minoxidil should be discontinued in order to use Follicept. How does this translate to the usage of shampoos and such since they have chemicals too? 

Also, if it is safe to use Follicept because the shampoo will be washed away afterwards, do you think that could mean the same for minoxidil where it could be continued, but washed off before follicept is applied? Just interested in what the team may have to say about this. Thanks!!

----------


## Helix

> It's very weird the least. But I was hoping we could forget about that and make a new start and focus on our COMMON goal: get the proof we need to see if this is for real or not.


 And in the meantime lets clutter the thread with pointless, repetitive speculations.

----------


## Illusion

> And in the meantime lets clutter the thread with pointless, repetitive speculations.


 Mistakes have been made in the past but we have to start clean at some point for the sake of this thread.

----------


## just2hairs

Devon, is it possible for Follicept to thicken up eyebrows?

----------


## stayhopeful

Fact: whenever I'm in despair and feel like I'm losing the battle, I go to follicept's website and read their product description.  Almost tearing up at the potential for mental health again

----------


## burtandernie

> And in the meantime lets clutter the thread with pointless, repetitive speculations.


 To be fair most of this whole thread and most threads in the cutting edge forum are mostly worthless pointless comments. Except for the few responses from them or links to main articles most of it just endless speculation. With this stuff news is so infrequent what else do people do besides guess and speculate? Its months before you get real factual news or results

----------


## FrenchNewbie

If we are too enthousiastic, we could harm the very new reputation of Follicept (in hear growth domain... their reputation on transdermal technology for diabete is clearly done). Which is not our interest, cause we want to see the results of tests. 

We have to understand that on this forum a lot of scammers came before with a charming language. So, if we want skeptics and moderation let Devon and Dr. Hsu demonstrate what their transdermal technology+IGF-1 can do on this forum, we have to be less enthousiasthic and just let people who master the subject speaking. We have to be as neutral as possible (skeptic and enthousiastic). I think that Arashi understood it too (his last posts are more neutral for the benefits of this topic). 

PS: Please accept my apologizes Arashi, I understand your point of view. I saw some topics about a chinese Dr Liu and weird results, so i can really understand your distrust. However i personnally think that here we have a very different case. For the interest of all, we should wait and give Follicept a chance.  :Smile: 

PS 2: I will speak in french (my apologizes) for my compatriots who are here and who wants to structure them if Follicept works on humans and we want to buy it first:

Les gars, il faudrait qu'on puisse s'organiser depuis ce site ou Doctissimo (de votre côté) histoire d'être dans les premiers à tester la chose. Noisette est un membre ancien du site et de Doctissimo. Je pense qu'on peut lui faire confiance. Donc, si jamais Follicept sort, il faudrait qu'on puisse s'organiser pour être dispo à l'heure H. Je pense par exemple à créer un petit site privé et fermé entre nous (avec les gars de doctissimo motivés) avec un chat privé, l'envoi d'une alerte mail dès la mise en place d'Indiegogo, un compte à rebours (pourquoi pas si il y a un vrai buzz) etc. Je peux mettre ça en place techniquement sans problème. On pourrait se placer sous la supervision de Noisette qui semble être un gars sûr et de confiance. Et derrière faire vérifier le tout par Devon afin que nous soyons dans les premiers lots. Parce que si ça marche les gars, ça fera tellement de bruit qu'on aura sûrement pas le temps d'être les premiers. Et si je suis venu ici c'est pour faire partie des premiers  :Wink:  Donc organisons nous, au moins au niveau français. 

N'hésitez pas à me MP, si vous voulez qu'on fasse ça ou autre chose. N'aimant pas trop doctissimo (ce site me rend hypocondriaque), je préfère pour l'instant rester ici. Par contre, je vous lis sur le topic Follicept de Docti et vous pouvez envisager pas mal de choses entre vous si jamais votre idée de site privé vous plait (on peut aussi organiser un achat groupé techniquement transparent sous le patronage de Devon). @ très vite.

----------


## sdsurfin

a) Arashi. facepalm. That is all

b) follicept- real guys, great minds, good potential. We wait to see results. that is all. 
Growth factors are definitely mediating hair loss and growth, and we will see treatments that work with these pathways, guaranteed.  

Either way, I'm amazed that anyone with more than two firing synapses would hang around this forum long. The rabble of ridiculous blowhards and milquetoast pseudo-scientists that populates these internet venues is pretty overwhelming.  Let the pros do their work boys. In the meantime go find something worthwhile to do with your lives while we all wait.  In the hours you spend writing dumb shit on here you could have helped people, wooed women, made money, made art, whatever.

----------


## Hairismylife

> a) Arashi. facepalm. That is all
> 
> b) follicept- real guys, great minds, good potential. We wait to see results. that is all. 
> Growth factors are definitely mediating hair loss and growth, and we will see treatments that work with these pathways, guaranteed.  
> 
> Either way, I'm amazed that anyone with more than two firing synapses would hang around this forum long. The rabble of ridiculous blowhards and milquetoast pseudo-scientists that populates these internet venues is pretty overwhelming.  Let the pros do their work boys. In the meantime go find something worthwhile to do with your lives while we all wait.  In the hours you spend writing dumb shit on here you could have helped people, wooed women, made money, made art, whatever.


 ONE growth factor cant do much in my opinion.
But hopefully it can help in thinning region, and maybe we still need anti-androgen as a combo.

----------


## Illusion

> Either way, I'm amazed that anyone with more than two firing synapses would hang around this forum long. The rabble of ridiculous blowhards and milquetoast pseudo-scientists that populates these internet venues is pretty overwhelming.  Let the pros do their work boys. In the meantime go find something worthwhile to do with your lives while we all wait.  In the hours you spend writing dumb shit on here you could have helped people, wooed women, made money, made art, whatever.


 Easier said than done.

----------


## BGL1040

I've been following this thread from the start and checking back every few days to see what progress has been made. I would like to know if there is a way to just read the responses Devon has posted rather than have to scroll through the pages of drivel that add nothing. If someone could let me know the correct way to filter that would be much appreciated. No offence intended to the many people who are also showing a genuine interest in this, as always it is a small minority who detract from a very interesting thread. Devon, best of luck when you have all the materials to start your test in the coming weeks.

----------


## GSD

> I've been following this thread from the start and checking back every few days to see what progress has been made. I would like to know if there is a way to just read the responses Devon has posted rather than have to scroll through the pages of drivel that add nothing. If someone could let me know the correct way to filter that would be much appreciated. No offence intended to the many people who are also showing a genuine interest in this, as always it is a small minority who detract from a very interesting thread. Devon, best of luck when you have all the materials to start your test in the coming weeks.


 ----> view profile (follicept) ---->  Find all posts

----------


## Arashi

> b) follicept- real guys, great minds, good potential. We wait to see results. that is all. 
> Growth factors are definitely mediating hair loss and growth, and we will see treatments that work with these pathways, guaranteed.


 Sdsurfin, I used to like your posts. I remember you had some interesting contributions in the Gardner thread, based on facts and actual research. But now it seems you've lost it and are just posting speculation like 99% of the people here. Or am I missing something ? Do you have even 1 article that shows IGF-1 increased follice count as much as Minox could ? If not, then why are you saying the above ? What happened to you ? Why the turn from facts to speculation ?

Swooping posted several scientific articles, all showing that it most likely won't work. Yet here you are, claiming otherwise, even GUARANTEEING growthfactors are the key. Why ?

Not dissing you, just genuinely  interested.

----------


## Kokles

Guys, stop feeding the endless discussion. Do not reply to folks who do not understand, that if the tests end up in failure of the product it means only positive things for other researchers (failure is not a failure). Please just stop it.

"Road to hell is paved with good intentions" is something that some of this thread's trolls need to understand.

----------


## Arashi

> So what if it won't work? The more ways are known which don't work, the more the scientists can work on other stuff. A failure is not a failure in this case.
> 
> Also getting people excited for a while is not a sin .. now taking money from people for something that does not work is of course unacceptable.


 I've answered this before, even more than once. People say we're running in circles and we actually are. You keep asking the same questions. So if you really are interested in my answer, read the thread first. Thanks.

----------


## thejack

> I've answered this before, even more than once. People say we're running in circles and we actually are. You keep asking the same questions. So if you really are interested in my answer, read the thread first. Thanks.


 It was a rhetorical question.

----------


## Arashi

> It was a rhetorical question.


 It would be better for everyone here if we'd stay on topic and not post things like that. The admin already warned to close the topic if we'd keep on the same road as before. Nobody wants that. So please refrain from insults, harrassment and "rhetoric questions". I've asked it a million times but it seems very hard for everybody here to focus on our common goal: getting the proof we want.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> It would be better for everyone here if we'd stay on topic and not post things like that. The admin already warned to close the topic if we'd keep on the same road as before. Nobody wants that. So please refrain from insults, harrassment and "rhetoric questions". I've asked it a million times but it seems very hard for everybody here to focus on our common goal: getting the proof we want.


 Agree with that!

----------


## Swooping

I concur with Arashi. Independent testing is the best way forward for the community. It's the only way that can realistically gauge if Follicept will have any merit at all. 

That aside if Devon states after the first in-house trial that it has no positive effect it isn't needed obviously. However if he does think it has any merit then we should indeed go with a independent trial. 

That is the proof we really need.

----------


## Hemo

Jesus christ do you guys have lives?  Maybe if you had a hobby or two you wouldn't have to fight "scammers" all weekend?

We get it, legitimate researchers have sold fraudulent products in the past and people like Arashi are just trying to protect ignorant customers from themselves.  Why not let people decide for themselves and post results/success?  I don't think anyone here is going to buy before seeing results.

----------


## Arashi

> Jesus christ do you guys have lives?  Maybe if you had a hobby or two you wouldn't have to fight "scammers" all weekend?
> 
> We get it, legitimate researchers have sold fraudulent products in the past and people like Arashi are just trying to protect ignorant customers from themselves.  Why not let people decide for themselves and post results/success?  I don't think anyone here is going to buy before seeing results.


 Please stay on topic and stop trolling, attacking and insulting or this thread WILL be closed. The admin warned to do that ! Winston doesn't make jokes, trust me.

----------


## nameless

I wonder how Follicept's vehicle would interact with occlusion.

I've seen first hand evidence that application of topical medicines is enhanced by doing the application shortly after a warm shower and towel drying lightly so the scalp is hydrated but dry. 

And I've also seen first hand that wearing a shower cap after medicine application can result in greater absorption. I wonder how doing so would interact with Follicept's vehicle.

Off the top of my head it seems like either of these two things might increase systemic absorption but sometimes the actual effect is the exact opposite of what the supposed effect.

----------


## joel203

Lol this treatment will be a benchmark in months/years to a cautious approach and not get too hyped on a product

----------


## nameless

> Lol this treatment will be a benchmark in months/years to a cautious approach and not get too hyped on a product


 joel203 you are misinterpreting the events playing out before your eyes. Almost everybody is *already* taking a cautious approach.

----------


## Hemo

> Please stay on topic and stop trolling, attacking and insulting or this thread WILL be closed. The admin warned to do that ! Winston doesn't make jokes, trust me.


 Okay, then can we agree to just wait until Devon tests the product before asking him to send it to forum members?  No sense in producing the product and sending it out if he doesn't know it works.

----------


## Arashi

> Okay, then can we agree to just wait until Devon tests the product before asking him to send it to forum members?  No sense in producing the product and sending it out if he doesn't know it works.


 Why would you want that ? If it doesn't work for person A, doesn't it for person B ? Wouldn't it make much more sense to test it on 20 people instead of just one ? What's the statistical significance of just 1 test ? I'd say, do the lab tests to make sure it's not toxic etc, so it's legal to sell and then ship it out right away to 20 forum members we select. Wouldn't that be the best for everybody ? Both for us as for them ?

----------


## serenemoon

> Why would you want that ? If it doesn't work for person A, doesn't it for person B ? Wouldn't it make much more sense to test it on 20 people instead of just one ? What's the statistical significance of just 1 test ? I'd say, do the lab tests to make sure it's not toxic etc, so it's legal to sell and then ship it out right away to 20 forum members we select. Wouldn't that be the best for everybody ? Both for us as for them ?


 "In pursuit of that, we will be doing a convenience sample asap on a handful of people, not much different than a backwoods experiment- "Hey Jimbo, 'mere. Try this crap out! I done made a concoction". We will show you those results as a courtesy. Those results will be as rigorously and consistently reported as they can be, but understand skepticism still at that point.

The results of that less rigorous (only because they are not randomized, blinded, or placebo controlled), convenience sample will tell us if it seems to be working or not, in very generous terms, and if it's worth spending a ton of time and effort and money to go forward with a larger trial.

This larger trial will be randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled, IRB approved, and statistically significant, and will yield data that we can publish in peer-reviewed journals. In other words, good science. We may or may not launch Indiegogo before or during this trial, just depending on what we are seeing. If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times: scientific integrity is paramount, and we will not take your money until convinced it will be effects. Trust me, our standard of evidence is higher than yours. " - Devon.

I am sure if they are going to send out samples to BTT peeps, it will be during the larger trial phase. Don't worry, it won't depend on just Devon's hair. Even the initial "convenience trial" will have a few people in addition to Devon.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

If the product works on the 20 persons selected by Follicept and there are really no side effects (FDA control was made, insignificant dose and a safe vector), i think it will be judicious to start with all people who wants without limit (or output limit). Then, a lot of people will test it (if they want and taking their responsability about risks). 

Why testing with people of forum? They could be pessimistic or enthousiastic and create a bias. Photos will not have the same quality. Some will take photos with smartphone, others will crop it oddly. My point of view is that it's not a good idea.

----------


## serenemoon

> If the product works on the 20 persons selected by Follicept and there are really no side effects (FDA control was made, insignificant dose and a safe vector), i think it will be judicious to start with all people who wants without limit (or output limit). Then, a lot of people will test it (if they want and taking their responsability about risks). 
> 
> Why testing with people of forum? They could be pessimistic or enthousiastic and create a bias. Photos will not have the same quality. Some will take photos with smartphone, others will crop it oddly. My point of view is that it's not a good idea.


 Don't worry, forum testing will be just a side trial. No matter what, Follicept is running a legitimate trial with the people that they selected. I say, let the forum trials happen, who cares. Let those 20 people from BTT be enthusiastic or pessmimistic and take different quality photos, I know you and I will be paying more attention to legitimate trials anyway.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

I understand your point of view. But the real problem is a possible bad buzz from these possible bias. If there are too much good results, some people will think it's weird and could create a conspiracy theory. For instance: old members well paid by Follicept to give false results (we can see that theories on french forums about some grafters... there are no proof). As we can see on this topic, we can't control social interactions, cause people are not neutral (like me, like Arashi, like all). Reactions on forums are not under control. 

Other example: If unfortunately a bad news arrives during the trial with forumers (a natural death of a forumer who was in poor health -Follicept can't know health of people with distances-) it will be a terrible bad buzz for them and for us. The family will think that it was this product. They will attack in justice... and we'll never see Follicept. It is a possibility. It could arrive.

----------


## serenemoon

> I understand your point of view. But the real problem is a possible bad buzz from these possible bias. If there are too much good results, some people will think it's weird and could create a conspiracy theory. For instance: old members well paid by Follicept to give false results (we can see that theories on french forums about some grafters... there are no proof). As we can see on this topic, we can't control social interactions, cause people are not neutral (like me, like Arashi, like all). Reactions on forums are not under control. 
> 
> Other example: If unfortunately a bad news arrives during the trial with forumers (a natural death of a forumer who was in poor health -Follicept can't know health of people with distances-) it will be a terrible bad buzz for them and for us. The family will think that it was this product. They will attack in justice... and we'll never see Follicept. It is a possibility. It could arrive.


 About things like deaths/adverse side effects that may not even be related Follicept, and thus causing Follicept harm - I see what you mean. That could be an issue with anyone even with the legitimate trials, but I understand you. We will see what Dr. Hsu decides. He is a brilliant guy, I am sure he will take all of this into consideration. 

As for there possibly being too good of results from forum members and people creating conspiracy theories because of that - I suppose anything is possible, but hopefully they will pick long standing members who are truly trusted. And if someone comes up with the theory that 20 forum members who have been here for ages were paid by Follicept to show good results,well, I promise you that most people would find that ridiculous. I would personally think someone is a bit mentally ill if they kept making that accusation. I think overall it will be okay. I totally get your idea about pointless negative buzz, but sadly, we can't control everything. What is meant to be, will be I suppose. We will wait and see. Like Devon said, they will do what is right by them and science, and let the chips fall where they may.

----------


## Arashi

> "In pursuit of that, we will be doing a convenience sample asap on a handful of people, not much different than a backwoods experiment- "Hey Jimbo, 'mere. Try this crap out! I done made a concoction". We will show you those results as a courtesy. Those results will be as rigorously and consistently reported as they can be, but understand skepticism still at that point.
> 
> The results of that less rigorous (only because they are not randomized, blinded, or placebo controlled), convenience sample will tell us if it seems to be working or not, in very generous terms, and if it's worth spending a ton of time and effort and money to go forward with a larger trial.
> 
> This larger trial will be randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled, IRB approved, and statistically significant, and will yield data that we can publish in peer-reviewed journals. In other words, good science. We may or may not launch Indiegogo before or during this trial, just depending on what we are seeing. If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times: scientific integrity is paramount, and we will not take your money until convinced it will be effects. Trust me, our standard of evidence is higher than yours. " - Devon.
> 
> I am sure if they are going to send out samples to BTT peeps, it will be during the larger trial phase. Don't worry, it won't depend on just Devon's hair. Even the initial "convenience trial" will have a few people in addition to Devon.


 IRB approved trial: they won't check if it actually works. They check methodology etc but there it stops. In fact, its main goal is to protect the test persons (make sure they're safe, getting paid etc). And peer-reviewed journals, that's been all layed out before, these guys dont even care if it's real or not. They just check methodology and if it's relevant to them.

I don't care about all that. And anyone with a critical mind should neither. A test among 20 members is MUCh more reliable. No way faking that !

And no, these are not 'conspiracy theories' or whatever. Just what we've seen before ! The peer reviewed scientific journal that published Gho's article said it themselves ! They did NOT verify any of the claims made in the article.

----------


## diffuseloser

I agree FrenchNewbie. I don't think it would be in Follicepts best interest to conduct themselves in this manner. I do get where Arashi and co. are coming from but I don't think it necessary to do this. I'm content letting them do their own trials and I'm pretty sure they are straight shooters, so I don't need any convincing. I'll just wait to see their results and if it looks promising, I will buy the product myself and test it myself with no expectations. If it doesn't work for me, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. We will see what happens either way.

----------


## serenemoon

> IRB approved trial: they won't check if it actually works. They check methodology etc but there it stops. In fact, its main goal is to protect the test persons (make sure they're safe, getting paid etc). And peer-reviewed journals, that's been all layed out before, these guys dont even care if it's real or not. They just check methodology and if it's relevant to them.
> 
> I don't care about all that. And anyone with a critical mind should neither. A test among 20 members is MUCh more reliable. No way faking that !
> 
> And no, these are not 'conspiracy theories' or whatever. Just what we've seen before ! The peer reviewed scientific journal that published Gho's article said it themselves ! They did NOT verify any of the claims made in the article.


 You misunderstand. If you are talking about how they won't check for results in the actual IRB trial, that is not true. In addition to safety, they have admitted that they will test for efficacy. Efficacy is what they will test for. THey will see if the product is effective. They will make sure if it works. Software will be used to analyze hair counts. They are going to see if the product actually grows hair. I said it multiple ways, hopefully one of them registers.

I sincerely hope you get your BTT trial, Arashi. I am not against it. I posted Devon's section to let you know how the trials will progress on their side, since you were worried that it will stop at Devon's hair if it does not work for him.

The conspiracy theories that FrenchNewbie is talking about are different from the ones you mention. He is worried if the forum trials results are too good, people will accuse Follicept of paying those 20 forum members. Different from what you mentioned.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Devon said us that it could be all or nothing with results. 

But it's not the only problem. It could be very risky for Follicept. Arashi spoke about the death of a forumer who tried a product from a dr (i don't remember who it was). You can't say that it was this product who killed him before an autopsy or investigations. Or, it could be a person who have a cancer after taking Follicept. If this unfortunatelly arrives it will kill our hopes about this product. 

I don't know if this product will work, but i can say one thing. Yesterday and today, i was happy. I had a big smile. IGF-1 (for me) could be a real hope. Please see the captures took by Noisette (he is Ryuteam on Doctissimo): http://club.doctissimo.fr/ryuteam/photo/ . He asked some specialists via Linkedin about Follicept and IGF-1 administrated by a gel. It seems that the way took by Follicept is a good way. 

Ps: Excuse me one more time for my poor english. I can't explain my ideas as i can do with my mother thongue. You could think that i'm a silly guy with my ideas under explained.

----------


## serenemoon

> Devon said us that it could be all or nothing with results. 
> 
> But it's not the only problem. It could be very risky for Follicept. Arashi spoke about the death of a forumer who tried a product from a dr (i don't remember who it was). You can't say that it was this product who killed him before an autopsy or investigations. Or, it could be a person who have a cancer after taking Follicept. If this unfortunatelly arrives it will kill our hopes about this product. 
> 
> I don't know if this product will work, but i can say one thing. Yesterday and today, i was happy. I had a big smile. IGF-1 (for me) could be a real hope. Please see the captures took by Noisette (he is Ryuteam on Doctissimo): http://club.doctissimo.fr/ryuteam/photo/ . He asked some specialists via Linkedin about Follicept and IGF-1 administrated by a gel. It seems that the way took by Follicept is a good way. 
> 
> Ps: Excuse me one more time for my poor english. I can't explain my ideas as i can do with my mother thongue. You could think that i'm a silly guy with my ideas under explained.


 Your English is great, no worries! My French on the other hand, hah! Also you make valid points, I see where you are coming from. Also, thanks for the link. Nice to see other professionals with actual degrees seeing so much potential here and acknowledging that igf1 does I'm fact grow hair. Thanks to Noisette too 😊

----------


## Swooping

> Your English is great, no worries! My French on the other hand, hah! Also you make valid points, I see where you are coming from. Also, thanks for the link. *Nice to see other professionals with actual degrees seeing so much potential here and acknowledging that igf1 does I'm fact grow hair.* Thanks to Noisette too ��


 Where do you see anyone doing that? Aside from a young guy who has probably no expertise in hair follicle biology and co-authored with Dr. Hsu himself on some papers? Link direct picture & proof please.

----------


## Clion1995

FrenchNewbie great find. I agree with Serenemoon that it's nice to see professionals with graduate degrees commenting on IGF-1. I love how they refer to Dr. Hsu as Stephen. I can't stand to watch people (no names here) try to attack a product that they have no idea how it works. It's just plain ignorant and the majority of them think they're educated on the matter but haven't put their life's work into curing diseases.  :Cool:

----------


## serenemoon

> Where do you see anyone doing that? Aside from a young guy who has probably no expertise in hair follicle biology and co-authored with Dr. Hsu himself on some papers? Link direct picture & proof please.


 Everyone who responded with an opinion acknowledged that there is potential. Dr. Tausif Alam specially said it is a growth promoter.

----------


## Clion1995

Swooping, please post a picture of your graduate degree and a link to your publications proving your knowledge on alopecia.*Link direct picture & proof please.*

----------


## serenemoon

> Swooping, please post a picture of your graduate degree and a link to your publications proving your knowledge on alopecia.*Link direct picture & proof please.*


 +1

----------


## Swooping

> Everyone who responded with an opinion acknowledged that there is potential. Tausif Alam specially said it is a growth promoter.


 Not really that is only in your context what you like to see. He says exactly this; "There is some potential". Then suggests basically to wait for real evidence. Also with growth promoter he probably refers to it having impact on the AKT pathway, not to hair itself. Also then he follows with this;




> *"On the other hand given a $2B+ market share of a product that can probably be slipped through the crack of the FDA, I can see why someone might want to sell such a product which does nothing other than to mostly cater to human vanity"*


 You read what you want to read. So no nobody is acknowledging anything at all.

----------


## serenemoon

> Not really that is only in your context what you like to see. He says exactly this; "There is some potential". Then suggests basically to wait for real evidence. Also with growth promoter he probably redirects to it having impact on the AKT pathway, not to hair itself. Also then he follows with this;
> 
> 
> 
> You read what you want to read. So no nobody is acknowledging anything at all.


 Sorry professor Swooping. I suppose acknowledging that there is "some potential" does not count. I will keep that in mind. And the man is weighing both sides. I am not mad at that.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> You read what you want to read. So no nobody is acknowledging anything at all.


 We have scientists who speak about Follicept. We read what we want to read, but they NEVER spoke about a possible "scam" from Dr. Hsu or Follicept. It is already a good news (versus the previous posts from two or three members -who are not scientists- on this topic...).

----------


## Swooping

> Sorry professor Swooping. I suppose acknowledging that there is "some potential" does not count. I will keep that in mind. And the man is weighing both sides. I am not mad at that.


 Your quote;



> Nice to see other professionals with actual degrees seeing so much potential here and acknowledging that igf1 does I'm fact grow hair.


 So no sorry, there is nobody who sees much potential. But "some" potential. Secondly nobody acknowledges IGF-1 does in fact grow hair, that comes out of your mouth. You are only creating hype, nothing more than that.

----------


## serenemoon

> Your quote;
> 
> 
> So no sorry, there is nobody who sees much potential. But "some" potential. Secondly nobody acknowledges IGF-1 does in fact grow hair, that comes out of your mouth. You are only creating hype, nothing more than that.


 I am also including the guy who sees it as a breakthrough, but apparently he does not count in your book so....I suppose you see what you want to see too.

----------


## Swooping

> I am also including the guy who sees it as a breakthrough, but apparently he does not count in your book so....I suppose you see what you want to see too.


 Off course not, first of all he has 0 publications about hair follicle biology, his expertise lies in a total different field.  So he probably doesn't know much about the pathology of AGA to start with. Also considering he refers too Dr. Hsu as "Steven" and Co-authored with him on various publications he knows him personally. What other response did you expect from him?

----------


## serenemoon

> Off course not, first of all he has 0 publications about hair follicle biology, his expertise lies in a total different field.  So he probably doesn't know much about the pathology of AGA to start with. Also considering he refers too Dr. Hsu as "Steven" and Co-authored with him on various publications he knows him personally. What other response did you expect from him?


 You are right. That makes his opinion completely invalid. And certainly does not compare to the opinion of Swooping M.D./PhD. I thought Tausif meant growth promoter in the context of hair. Especially because he followed up with a "but" so idk.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Please friends, don't feed the PhD troll. He will win if we continue and the topic will be closed. We don't want that.

I'm like you friends. I'm waiting like a crazy guy a small post of Devon, maybe a photo of him complitely shaven. So i psychologically need to post.  I'm so impatient to see the results.

----------


## nameless

Even if IGF-1 turns out to be an effective treatment for hair loss there is still the issue that the Follicept method may not get enough IGF-1 into the follicles.

Follicept intends to use an extremely low dose.

----------


## Gbalding

> Look, ask yourself, what would you do ? You have developed this new revolutionary system, that can bring large molecules through the dermis without them going systematic (or in such a small amount that it doesnt matter). This is gold. What do you do ? I wouldn't even have the TIME to visit a forum ! I would be calling every single pharma and hedge fund out there, talking to all of them, seeing which one wants to pay the most. But here's Devon, failed to attract any substantial investor, joining a forum for baldies to ... yeah that's still a mystery to me, what exactly.


 I'd consider his activity here a part of the marketing function. He's speaking to the consumers directly to understand their needs and wants, so he can develop a product that they will buy. From reading this thread, I know that there will be customers who will buy it regardless, and some people who would need concrete scientific evidence to purchase it. Now, if he knows that there is a chance that this would work, he has to be able to position the company in a way where it meets as many people's expectations as possible. When the product launches, there will be accompanying marketing material to satisfy everyone and it's because he was able to reach out to us and essentially understand why we buy. 

Huge pharmaceuticals do this with doctors, consumer goods companies do this with moms, and magazine publishers do this with readers; it is what goes on behind every product development life cycle.

A good marketer would probably tell you that this is the most important aspect of the process.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

+1000 Gbalding. 

If they have already tested Follicept on some people (i think that, cause they are very confident, the website is done, a logo, etc, etc.), the best way is not to speak with big pharmas. They could buy your laboratory and your patents with millions but you'll never see this product on the market (or maybe in 10 years). You will not make history as the scientist who beat AAG, which is an exploit. And you will loose billions of dollars/euros. 

If they are sure of what they do, they are in the best way to manage. The buzz will enlarge with months and finally we could see a new small pharma emerge under the name of Prometheon thanks to Follicept. After that, they will have money to develop a new way to live diabete or chemotherapy. I think Devon has win the first point. The next will be the test.

----------


## Arashi

> I'd consider his activity here a part of the marketing function. He's speaking to the consumers directly to understand their needs and wants, so he can develop a product that they will buy. From reading this thread, I know that there will be customers who will buy it regardless, and some people who would need concrete scientific evidence to purchase it. Now, if he knows that there is a chance that this would work, he has to be able to position the company in a way where it meets as many people's expectations as possible. When the product launches, there will be accompanying marketing material to satisfy everyone and it's because he was able to reach out to us and essentially understand why we buy. 
> 
> Huge pharmaceuticals do this with doctors, consumer goods companies do this with moms, and magazine publishers do this with readers; it is what goes on behind every product development life cycle.
> 
> A good marketer would probably tell you that this is the most important aspect of the process.


 If all that were true, Devon would now have learned that there are 3 groups of people:

1) First group will buy the product based on promises. Period. No proof needed.
2) Second group will buy the product once they see some proof, regardless of whether they can verify the proof or know it's real proof or not.
3) Third group will only buy once they see solid proof, not supplied by the company itself, but from independent testers.

So, conclusion: do both the official trials and the forum trial and you'll sell to the whole world. Easy as that. We happy, they happy, everybody happy, one big party of happy hairy people  :Smile:

----------


## stayhopeful

> If all that were true, Devon would now have learned that there are 3 groups of people:
> 
> 1) First group will buy the product based on promises. Period. No proof needed.
> 2) Second group will buy the product once they see some proof, regardless of whether they can verify the proof or know it's real proof or not.
> 3) Third group will only buy once they see solid proof, not supplied by the company itself, but from independent testers.
> 
> So, conclusion: do both the official trials and the forum trial and you'll sell to the whole world. Easy as that. We happy, they happy, everybody happy, one big party of happy hairy people


 Arashi, despite our differences,  I can appreciate your dedication to the forum.  I can tell you deep down really want it to work. Hope Follicept can make you optimistic again with some amazing evidence, which would change life as we know it for all of us

----------


## FrenchNewbie

@Arashi When it will be on market members can get it and your third group will know if they can buy it or not. If they don't want, they will wait. So you can wait if you want to wait more proof.

The first group doesn't exist on this topic. We are all waiting the first results before giving our money. 

From my point of view, opinion of a member is not a solid proof at all. It's allways a biased opinion. As you can see in this forum, you will find some persons who recommand Fina or Duta or Minox or onion or tea or mint or garlic or FUT or FUE, etc, etc, etc. They are here after made some research and they have created their own point of view about hair subject. They will give their opinion about Follicept from a certain point of view and try to compare (and they will balance their opinion with the current hype). 

Then, you have some people who are psychologically fragile (we will never know that... if a person don't want to say it). So if this product give just two new hair, it will be a revolution for them. Others are depressed with dismorphophobia. They will think the product doesn't work... but in fact it's working with a lot of new hair they can't see (in their mind). Clearly, opinions of forum members is not a solid proof. For the photos, you will have a patchwork of poor quality (not the same light, not the same camera, cropped differently). 

And excuse me but... this forum is not the center of this world. I don't know why i will give credit to people i don't know (they can be historical here like you, i don't care). For a company it's totally different. If they are in US (like Prometheon/Follicept) and they lie, some people here can attack in justice. Their is a protection against lying in US i suppose. N.B: In our french justice we have that: "Délit de fausse nouvelle". I think it exists the same thing in US. 

The only solid proof is a study with a large sample, followed by the doctor, with placebo, double blind, etc. And Devon said us that they will do it after the first trial (if it works). And after the first trial, we could get it via Indiegogo. I'm totally ok with that. If i'm conviced by the first results i will test it. If not, i will not buy it (and i trust them when they say that they will not sell Follicept if it doesn't work).

----------


## tf2legend

We need a new thread. The trolls have hijacked this one and it's tough to keep up with it.

Devon can you start a new thread with the video of you applying the gel starting the treatment

Thank you

----------


## nameless

> We need a new thread. The trolls have hijacked this one and it's tough to keep up with it.
> 
> Devon can you start a new thread with the video of you applying the gel starting the treatment
> 
> Thank you


 
+1

Yup.

----------


## I am ready

> We need a new thread. The trolls have hijacked this one and it's tough to keep up with it.
> 
> Devon can you start a new thread with the video of you applying the gel starting the treatment
> 
> Thank you


 Good idea ;-)

----------


## diffuseloser

I believe Follicept are the real deal. However, there are a lot of guys in here staking all their chips and getting over excited for this one treatment. There is a high possibility that their hopes will be crushed. We all want to see it work, but it's best to remain grounded and expect nothing. I'm looking forward to hearing back from Devon and agree it would be a good idea to start a new thread.

----------


## Keki

There is no point in starting a new thread, simply they will follow and continue with this proof request no one want, we want results not proof about their integrity, we alredy know they are legit, they should call someone else if they think they are scammer, not spam here and no one want to be saved by them, i don't think they scrutinize and debate every single cosmetic their SO or mom or whoever bought during the year for hundreads of dollars, and the 95% of that is pure crap, in this thread we saw their face, their curriculum, their freaking address, their treatment vehicle, an ultra studied growth factor and we are waiting for pics, and if they are positive that's more then enought for 50-100$, i'm not going broke if this thing doesn't work and they most likely will lose money if they ordered igf and set up a mass production but everyone in the balding forum think it doesn't work

I'm sorry for people who got scammed in this years but the analogy of putting an acid on your head in order to make "space" for follicle and think it may works and got scarred or people who went to unknow doctors because they will do everything for their hairs is retarded, this is not even close

----------


## serenemoon

> There is no point in starting a new thread, simply they will follow and continue with this proof request no one want, we want results not proof about their integrity, we alredy know they are legit, they should call someone else if they think they are scammer, not spam here and no one want to be saved by them, i don't think they scrutinize and debate every single cosmetic their SO or mom or whoever bought during the year for hundreads of dollars, and the 95% of that is pure crap, in this thread we saw their face, their curriculum, their freaking address, their treatment vehicle, an ultra studied growth factor and we are waiting for pics, and if they are positive that's more then enought for 50-100$, i'm not going broke if this thing doesn't work and they most likely will lose money if they ordered igf and set up a mass production but everyone in the balding forum think it doesn't work
> 
> I'm sorry for people who got scammed in this years but the analogy of putting an acid on your head in order to make "space" for follicle and think it may works and got scarred or people who went to unknow doctors because they will do everything for their hairs is retarded, this is not even close


 We should start a poll, haha. Who wants forum trials, who doesn't.

----------


## Keki

It doesn't make any sense, a "forum trial" will happen anyway if they get positive results and they will launch the product, people need only to wait for other users review, it's ****ig simple, the idea of a seal of approval by community as a sort of autorithy is a joke, how can people even think about that lol this will never ever happen

----------


## I am ready

I hope it will work at least as Minoxidil without sides and for long period..., Now we have to wait and we will see within few months what happend... I will keep my fingers crossed. (Like every member on this forum, I think)

----------


## GSD

> It doesn't make any sense, a "forum trial" will happen anyway if they get positive results and they will launch the product, people need only to wait for other users review, it's ****ig simple, the idea of a seal of approval by community as a sort of autorithy is a joke, how can people even think about that lol this will never ever happen


 +1

----------


## serenemoon

> It doesn't make any sense, a "forum trial" will happen anyway if they get positive results and they will launch the product, people need only to wait for other users review, it's ****ig simple, the idea of a seal of approval by community as a sort of autorithy is a joke, how can people even think about that lol this will never ever happen


 +1. I know, I personally have no interest in a forum trial. Devon will be back some news tomorrow about all of this, hopefully, so that we can move on from the forum trial topic.

----------


## Clion1995

If it is just as effective for people as minoxidil, wouldn't more people respond to IGF-1, as opposed to minoxidil because with minox you need a specific enzyme for it to be very effective?

----------


## serenemoon

Follicept is No.6  :Smile: 

https://hairbiotech.wordpress.com/20...on-march-2015/

----------


## Arashi

> It doesn't make any sense, a "forum trial" will happen anyway if they get positive results and they will launch the product, people need only to wait for other users review, it's ****ig simple, the idea of a seal of approval by community as a sort of autorithy is a joke, how can people even think about that lol this will never ever happen


 The idea behind a forum trial is:
1) To do it in an organized way
2) To ensure only trusthworthy accounts participate. Nobody cares about results from new accounts. We need longterm forum visitors with trackrecord, who EVERYBODY can trust.
3) To make it happen at the earliest possibility. They should ship out the product to the forum users once they can legally do so (so after the lab tests for toxicity etc).

You're SO against a forum trial (with your new account). Really, tell me, if Follicept was for real, then why would they NOT want to do it ? I can only see benefits for them ! This would be THE best way to even convince the biggest doubters like me !! And people are wanting to help them out to get it done !

And why would YOU as a consumer even be against it ? That makes even less sense !

----------


## Arashi

> Follicept is No.6 
> 
> https://hairbiotech.wordpress.com/20...on-march-2015/


 
That's a blog by some guy who had a hairtransplant. If I'm correct, the guy is even a forum member here.

----------


## Hairismylife

> Follicept is No.6 
> 
> https://hairbiotech.wordpress.com/20...on-march-2015/


 I nearly forget about SM.

----------


## serenemoon

> The idea behind a forum trial is:
> 1) To do it in an organized way
> 2) To ensure only trusthworthy accounts participate. Nobody cares about results from new accounts. We need longterm forum visitors with trackrecord, who EVERYBODY can trust.
> 3) To make it happen at the earliest possibility. They should ship out the product to the forum users once they can legally do so (so after the lab tests for toxicity etc).
> 
> You're SO against a forum trial (with your new account). Really, tell me, if Follicept was for real, then why would do NOT want to do it ? I can only see benefits from them ! This would be THE best way to even convince the biggest doubters like me !! And people are wanting to help them out to get it done !


 Would you try it if they want to do a forum trial? Forget that you are doubting it and what others think. Would you like to try it as a part of the 20 possible testers? You may be biased but I am sure your photos will say something...

----------


## Arashi

> Would you try it if they want to do a forum trial? Forget that you are doubting it and what others think. Would you like to try it as a part of the 20 possible testers? You may be biased but I am sure your photos will say something...


 I'd only be willing to be one of those 20 guys if you, the hypers, agree to it. Cause I can already see you guys saying, in case it didnt work: "Arashi wanted it to fail, he probably didnt even apply it". In that case, what good would it be for ME to participate ?

So, no, I'd rather have 20 accounts everbody trusts. No newbies and now 'biased' accounts ...

----------


## serenemoon

> I'd only be willing to be one of those 20 guys if you, the hypers, agree to it. Cause I can already see you guys saying, in case it didnt work: "Arashi wanted it to fail, he probably didnt even apply it". In that case, what good would it be for ME to participate ?


 Nope, I am cool with you being a tester. I mean, I don't see you as as that kind of a guy who will go that far to prove that Follicept won't work. As long as you think you are capable of humbly admitting that Follicept does work, after all. (If it works.)

----------


## Jagger

> I'd only be willing to be one of those 20 guys if you, the hypers, agree to it. Cause I can already see you guys saying, in case it didnt work: "Arashi wanted it to fail, he probably didnt even apply it". In that case, what good would it be for ME to participate ?
> 
> So, no, I'd rather have 20 accounts everbody trusts. No newbies and now 'biased' accounts ...


 "Hypers." Heh.

Again, I'd support Arashi as a tester. I lean on the side of optimism but believe neutral skepticism is the correct view to have at this time. If Arashi says it works, then it probably works. I wouldn't be worried about you trying to sabotage the trial for personal satisfaction, since you obviously care about scientific integrity. You wouldn't fail the product out of spite, that much I'm confident of.

----------


## Keki

I wouldn't waste time even thinking about this "test", it will never happen, people will get follicept at the same time, a massive number of personal pics will be posted anyway after the launch as it should be  :Smile:

----------


## FrenchNewbie

I hope the tests will start this week to stop with this poor debate. A social proof? Big joke. Why not take 1000 persons from facebook? Same scientific authority. lol

----------


## diffuseloser

Arashi, you really need to stop accusing people with new accounts that they are somehow in cahoots with Follicept. Also, this forum trial you speak of is only something that would be beneficial to the very small minority of doubters. The rest of us could care less.

----------


## serenemoon

> Arashi, you really need to stop accusing people with new accounts that they are somehow in cahoots with Follicept. Also, this forum trial you speak of is only something that would be beneficial to the very small minority of doubters. The rest of us could care less.


 +1. This is true. Again, I am indifferent to a forum trial, but not many people are really that suspicious enough for a forum trial to take place anyway. It will probably satisfy Arashi and swooping maybe (and perhaps a couple of other people). I think the rest of us trust Follicept. If the forum trials needs to happen so that "doubters" are satisfied, well, it is such  a SMALL minority that even if they don't buy the product, I don't think it matters.

----------


## diffuseloser

Exactly. There's maybe 5 people max in here who think it's all a big conspiracy. Why go to all that trouble to convince just 5 people?

----------


## Helix

> So, no, I'd rather have 20 accounts everbody trusts. No newbies and now 'biased' accounts ...


 Discriminatory behavior that you are exhibiting on this forum has been much bigger problem for human race in general than some hair loss snake oil.

Also you should note that many people here are becoming biased because of your extremely annoying witch-hunt approach.

----------


## Keki

As long Devon stay here to post pictures and updates i don't care, i don't care about their paranoid accusations to me by an unknow keyboard warrior one ocean away from me, i don't care what they think about prometheon, it's their problem to convince people or defend themself by this witch hunt, and i don't care about this "community trial" at all, all i want is results posted and if positive i want a schedule for european release asap, this what me and the other 99% of users want, even if it grow back 10 hairs or slow somehow the hairloss i don't want any delay, if they need info about regulations and the step to do in europe i can help because is my enviroment, if they need translations in every language they need we can help, if they want to set up another board we can help aswell, this is what a community can offer to them, not only flames

----------


## Hicks

I do not see any strategic advantage for Follicept to do a community trail. Actually the only benefit would come to someone that has been a member here for 2.5 years with an average *3.71 posts a DAY* to increase their post to 4.71.

----------


## nameless

> I do not see any strategic advantage for Follicept to do a community trail. Actually the only benefit would come to someone that has been a member here for 2.5 years with an average *3.71 posts a DAY* to increase their post to 4.71.


 There is no advantage for Follicept if they do a community trial. As a matter of fact there is only disadvantage because if they do a trial here before they complete the convenience trial they will needlessly be taking on risk. So they will then have risk plus they could then become known for being a company that takes on needless risk, which would damage their industry credibility and reputation.

----------


## Johnny2000

1: when Will we know if This works? (Month & year)

2: if it works, how long would be realistic to Think it comes on the marked?

3: would it be possible to buy it from Europe (Denmark) and have it send here?

4: Will there be a shedding (im diffuse & receding) so it would be a pain in the ass if it is like minox, where Many people reported shedding and the shedded hairs never returned.

I hope someone Will try to answer my questions as best as possible please.
Like all of you, im getting desperet.
I need something to regrow my thinning.

----------


## Gbalding

> The idea behind a forum trial is:
> 1) To do it in an organized way
> 2) To ensure only trusthworthy accounts participate. Nobody cares about results from new accounts. We need longterm forum visitors with trackrecord, who EVERYBODY can trust.
> 3) To make it happen at the earliest possibility. They should ship out the product to the forum users once they can legally do so (so after the lab tests for toxicity etc).
> 
> You're SO against a forum trial (with your new account). Really, tell me, if Follicept was for real, then why would they NOT want to do it ? I can only see benefits for them ! This would be THE best way to even convince the biggest doubters like me !! And people are wanting to help them out to get it done !
> 
> And why would YOU as a consumer even be against it ? That makes even less sense !


 Honestly Arashi, a forum trial would be a disaster. 

Let them do their job, and test whatever they have. I want this thing to work, and I don't want to rely on a half ass trial to make my decision. If there was a history of successful trials being conducted with the users on this forum, I would look at it differently; however, the history suggests that it isn't worth the time or effort. If you feel that I'm completely wrong, and there has been a history of successful trials, please feel free to point them out to me, and by extension, the community. 

I read this forum a lot, but seldom post here.  I hope the absence of my voice doesn't detract from my credibility as a balding man.

----------


## Jagger

> 1: when Will we know if This works? (Month & year)
> 
> 2: if it works, how long would be realistic to Think it comes on the marked?
> 
> 3: would it be possible to buy it from Europe (Denmark) and have it send here?
> 
> 4: Will there be a shedding (im diffuse & receding) so it would be a pain in the ass if it is like minox, where Many people reported shedding and the shedded hairs never returned.
> 
> I hope someone Will try to answer my questions as best as possible please.
> ...


 1. Hopefully within a month or two. They've received the IGF-1 shipment and were waiting on other ingredients. If all went well, Devon and co. started their personal trials today. Papers suggested that results may be visible after 12 days, but we don't know much.

2. They want it out by the end of the year.

3. To buy from Denmark? Or to have it shipped to Denmark? At any rate, we don't know.

4. They said they don't expect a shed, but again, we won't know until they test it.

----------


## Clion1995

If we used Minox only once a day in the morning and used this once a night, wouldn't it still be okay to use Minox?

----------


## serenemoon

> If we used Minox only once a day in the morning and used this once a night, wouldn't it still be okay to use Minox?


 Maybe after you wash your scalp afterwards. I had a similar question for Follicept earlier, we will see what they say. I use minoxidil and do want to use IGF-1, it is the shedding that worries me. I hope that they do at least a few patients who are interested in switching over (as a side trial) so that we know to prepare ourselves. Cos that post minoxidil hair loss is no joke.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

I suggest one thing for Devon. I don't like the gallery of this forum. I suggest flickr to follow the test day by day with only one URL with automatic date and chronology. Flickr doesn't compress too much photos. And it's more simple to share it on websites (maybe facebook or twitter for certain persons). 

Ps: I have a question for those who use Minox... if unfortunatelly Follicept doesn't work on human i think i will test it. I'm attacked on the vertex/crow and it go the midscalp (like Zidane but it's not hardcore like him for the moment). Is it a good drug to recover some hairs here? I'm not attack on the front hair (i lost 1cm in 10 years, but i'm 30 years old, i accept it).  If yes, what is the best formulation of minoxidil? Rogaine? Many thanks.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Sdsurfin, I used to like your posts. I remember you had some interesting contributions in the Gardner thread, based on facts and actual research. But now it seems you've lost it and are just posting speculation like 99% of the people here. Or am I missing something ? Do you have even 1 article that shows IGF-1 increased follice count as much as Minox could ? If not, then why are you saying the above ? What happened to you ? Why the turn from facts to speculation ?
> 
> Swooping posted several scientific articles, all showing that it most likely won't work. Yet here you are, claiming otherwise, even GUARANTEEING growthfactors are the key. Why ?
> 
> Not dissing you, just genuinely  interested.


 
Yes, Arashi, you are missing quite a lot. Also no forum trial is necessary nor will it happen, so you can all stop discussing it.  it makes no sense.  follicept does not need this forum, but they have been nice enough to be open with us and involve us in this pre clinical stage of their testing.  Like devon has said many times, they will not sell anything until they are sure of having a good product.  If their trials go well and you're not interested or skeptical, then don't buy it.  simple as that. Once their product is available you are welcome to try it for yourself or organize whatever trials you want, but they have no reason to cater to the every whim of every nutcase on these forums.  

  I am in personal contact with Devon and Dr Hsu and there is absolutely zero evidence that they are anything but ethical scientists and businessmen who stumbled on an idea with great potential, and want to develop it in an open and honest fashion. They have been more than kind and patient vis a vis their interaction with the morons on this post, I'm actually pretty baffled that they would even want to come on here at all.  I've actually told Devon several times that he shouldn't waste his time on here, as the only thing to gain is a lot of skepticism from people who are disappointed by other companies and who not really understand the science behind this.  Not to mention the various deeply maladaptive psychological profiles of some of the most prolific posters on here. Although there are some good sane people checking this forum , this is basically a snake's pit of self important and deeply troubled personalities, many of whom will be obsessively negative or positive no matter what facts are presented.  and no company with a promising product needs to be on here to develop their science.  Despite that, he's been nice enough to agree to keep you guys posted on progress, mainly because a couple of us have provided insight (these guys are just learning about hair loss themselves, although being an accomplished scientist, Dr. Hsu knows a great deal more than anyone on here about chemical and biological pathways in general) and because they really do want to help people.  If their product works, they will not depend on this forum to be successful.  

Might follicept fail? Sure. But the science is very sound and very promising. If you want to know how i came to this conclusion, read my arguments with swooping and the earlier posts on this thread.  From what I've seen, you seem to really get off on obsessively picking things apart, and in the case of Dr. Nigam you were quite correct.  I can 100 percent assure you that these guys have nothing in common with him, and you should just let this play out and see what happens. follicept are not scamming anybody, and from my personal contact with dr. hsu, i can tell you that he is exactly the kind of scientist we need on our side.  even if this approach fails, he is extremely interested in the science of AGA and is very curious to come up with a solution. I email with him when I have ideas, and unless asshole pseudo-scientific insecure balding dudes annoy these guys enough, they are very interested in perfecting their technique for AGA.  IGF-1 is only the beginning of a perfected treatment using their vehicle.  What I can tell you is that it is essentially working on the same chemical basis for histogen and PRP, except in a more controlled and direct manner.  The mor epeople learn about hair loss, the more we know that growth factors like IGF-1 (and others) are the chemical mitigators of hair growth and loss.  They are controlled by the androgen, ant, and b catenin pathways among others, and in addition to the observations that follicept has made in rat models that mimic human balding skin, there is ever mounting evidence that IGF-1 is a very important mediating factor in the follicle.  Ignore any articles that have to do with serum levels of IGF-1 (swooping loves those), as they do not indicate a causal relationship with hair growth.  Because of non-disclosure, I cannot tell you everything about it or how/why their method has developed, but like you said, I'm a smart guy who is very objective and don't get excited about things that I don't understand.  Growth factors have continually been proven to influence hair loss, and if I was dr. Hsu I would be pursuing this avenue as well.  The things that they noticed have great promise.  Unlike other people on here I don't have the time to be posting on here continuously, nor do I care to.  Swooping is a waste of time, if your knowledge base on IGF-1 depends on the things he posts then you are being misinformed. all he does is link articles that he does not fully understand.  

All we can do is wait and see if Devon notices positive results, and if he does, I can assure you that they will run trials which are very professionally done and objective.  They are not indian charlatans who want to make a quick buck.  they are a legitimate startup that wants to address other more devastating diseases, and are excited and passionate about the potential to use it for hair- something they stumbled on (kind of like rogaine or propecia),  These guys are not a huge pharma, and this is is how great discovery in science often works- small groups making big discoveries.  If this pans out, they will not need this forum to market this to bigger players and get it out to the world.  

As far as my own objectivity, I cannot guarantee this will work, but I have high hopes and am almost 100 percent sure that it will do SOMETHING. IGF-1s effects on hair follicles have been observed way too many times for it to not do anything.  I would similarly not be incredibly surprised if it doesn't work perfectly, or wasn't much better than rogaine. But it could be much better too.   Human trials will be crucial, and I think there are issues with cycling, dosing etc that will need to be ironed out before we have a perfect product.  What I can say is everyone chill the **** out and again, let the pros do their work.  I've been talking to Dr. hsu about more detailed aspects of hair loss pathways, and basically they want to try the IGF-1 approach before getting more complicated, as it may be the most simple and effective current solution. If it works, they won't stop there to perfect a treatment.  



In other news, still waiting for TLR to get some PGD2 blockers and maybe CB on the market, sucks that its been so slow, but i am in touch and will let you guys know when something comes to fruition.   As we have all seen, getting these chemicals can be a difficult task.  I've been using adenosine (shiseido's adenogen) , and pretty sure its having a positive impact on my hair, so for those of you who can't use rogaine, you might look into it.  adenosine has also been shown to promote IGF-1 and other hair growth factors.

----------


## sdsurfin

> I suggest one thing for Devon. I don't like the gallery of this forum. I suggest flickr to follow the test day by day with only one URL with automatic date and chronology. Flickr doesn't compress too much photos. And it's more simple to share it on websites (maybe facebook or twitter for certain persons). 
> 
> Ps: I have a question for those who use Minox... if unfortunatelly Follicept doesn't work on human i think i will test it. I'm attacked on the vertex/crow and it go the midscalp (like Zidane but it's not hardcore like him for the moment). Is it a good drug to recover some hairs here? I'm not attack on the front hair (i lost 1cm in 10 years, but i'm 30 years old, i accept it).  If yes, what is the best formulation of minoxidil? Rogaine? Many thanks.


 you might try lipogaine (didn't give me dark circles under the eyes as much as rogaine) or adenogen by shiseido, which has given me zero side effects.  I would use adenogen either way.  Lipogaine has great reviews online, and it also does not make my head itch, though with minox that is always a possibility.  I know people who have maintained their hair for a long time on minox, for some people it works amazingly, for some not so much.  It sounds like your loss isn't so aggressive, especially since you're already 30.

----------


## Keki

sd why are you using adenogen? It's the old expensive version, i wish i could order the real adenovirus in europe but you know customs... for this reason if follicept works i will work hard to help devon the best i can, and for now i'm waiting before take anything even if i'm a nw3

But if you are american you can find the adenovirus on amazon, so easy and cheap, i wish the uk one had it

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> you might try lipogaine (didn't give me dark circles under the eyes as much as rogaine) or adenogen by shiseido, which has given me zero side effects.  I would use adenogen either way.  Lipogaine has great reviews online, and it also does not make my head itch, though with minox that is always a possibility.  I know people who have maintained their hair for a long time on minox, for some people it works amazingly, for some not so much.  It sounds like your loss isn't so aggressive, especially since you're already 30.


 Thank you so much. I will see these products. My loss is not agressive. It is pernicious. It started when i was 26 but i didn't saw it (my mother told me that when i was 29). I have 2 vertex (left and right) not one. My hairs are smaller and smaller. Now you can see my skin on my vertex, but i have some hairs on it. So with a very small amount of toppik, no one see my loss. But now it go on my midscalp. It's so pernicious. In 4 years, if it continue, i will be like Zidane who is a beautifull guy. Without hairs, i'm not like him. 

I can't continue with Toppik. In our societies, these cosmetics are credible for girls. And i don't want continue to lie to me. So i need Follicept  :Smile:  if not i will take Minox and thinking about FUE. For Fina, i don't want to play with my male hormones. For my health. For my ethic too.

P.S: I totally agree with your previous post.

@Keki, if you want an help for a product from Europe, i can send it you as a gift. It could be better for customs. If you want i can add cheese.  :Wink:

----------


## diffuseloser

Thank you sdsurfin. Great post and just what this thread needed. I agree with you 100%. It's fantastic that you are liaising with Devon, Dr. Hsu and Follicept and I'm glad it's you of all people. I'm also looking forward to hearing how it goes with TLR as I'd be interested in buying some CB and PGD2 blockers also. Thanks for your efforts with this and also with Follicept. We need it and your enthusiasm and determination is much appreciated.

Does anyone know where I can get a hold of some adeno in the United Kingdom? Any of you Europeans interested in a group buy some time in the near future? Waiting to see how it pans out with Follicept and if the results are in any way positive I'll be dropping my min/RU regime and giving it a shot.

French, I can't imagine Zidane with hair. Now there's a guy that could pull off the bald look with panache.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Zidane with all his hairs: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HI1NaxxWq4...+Euro+1996.png
Now: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ane_2008-2.jpg

I think he is better without hairs. But we can see that he has a frontline shaved. It's the reason why he seems to be "young".

Same thing for Pep Guardiola (coach of Bayern Munchen for americans) this front line change a lot of things... more than vertex i think. With beard: http://www.gentlemale.fr/wp-content/...ine-zidane.jpg

So i can say one thing. If Follicept really works and permit to recover all of your hair, some people will not have interests to use it. And if they use it, they will shave their head with a gain of youth cause of the new front line (shaved).

----------


## diffuseloser

I'm pretty certain I could not pull off the shaved look like Zidane or Guardiola. But, right now it's looking like the only viable option. I've tried pretty much everything besides fin which I will not mess with. I'd happily shave my head if it just looked shaved and not because I have hair loss. With diffuse loss all over the top, the back and sides would stand out more so I'd have to go all in and take it down completely. I still haven't been able to do it but I hope that when I do, it will be liberating and I'll stick with it. 

On a side note, welcome to the forum, it's good to have some more Europeans in here.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Thanks my friend! I love UK. Specially when PSG beats Chelsea in Champions League.  :Wink: 

I have a limited diffuse hair loss (+vertex +midscalp). I learned how to cut my hair myself (with this type of tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7IgJRgvCuE) . I make an high bald fade. When you totally cut the sides, people will think you have more hairs on top. Like Lucas Moura in PSG (you can see on Youtube in 2013 and in 2015, he has a diffuse very young). Then, to be elegant, you need to have the skin tanned by sun or UV and the most important: have a good style. I wear suits for my job, so my budget goes here. With a very small amount of Toppik, no one could think i loose my hair (i'm NW3, maybe more).

----------


## stayhopeful

> Yes, Arashi, you are missing quite a lot. Also no forum trial is necessary nor will it happen, so you can all stop discussing it.  it makes no sense.  follicept does not need this forum, but they have been nice enough to be open with us and involve us in this pre clinical stage of their testing.  Like devon has said many times, they will not sell anything until they are sure of having a good product.  If their trials go well and you're not interested or skeptical, then don't buy it.  simple as that. Once their product is available you are welcome to try it for yourself or organize whatever trials you want, but they have no reason to cater to the every whim of every nutcase on these forums.  
> 
>   I am in personal contact with Devon and Dr Hsu and there is absolutely zero evidence that they are anything but ethical scientists and businessmen who stumbled on an idea with great potential, and want to develop it in an open and honest fashion. They have been more than kind and patient vis a vis their interaction with the morons on this post, I'm actually pretty baffled that they would even want to come on here at all.  I've actually told Devon several times that he shouldn't waste his time on here, as the only thing to gain is a lot of skepticism from people who are disappointed by other companies and who not really understand the science behind this.  Not to mention the various deeply maladaptive psychological profiles of some of the most prolific posters on here. Although there are some good sane people checking this forum , this is basically a snake's pit of self important and deeply troubled personalities, many of whom will be obsessively negative or positive no matter what facts are presented.  and no company with a promising product needs to be on here to develop their science.  Despite that, he's been nice enough to agree to keep you guys posted on progress, mainly because a couple of us have provided insight (these guys are just learning about hair loss themselves, although being an accomplished scientist, Dr. Hsu knows a great deal more than anyone on here about chemical and biological pathways in general) and because they really do want to help people.  If their product works, they will not depend on this forum to be successful.  
> 
> Might follicept fail? Sure. But the science is very sound and very promising. If you want to know how i came to this conclusion, read my arguments with swooping and the earlier posts on this thread.  From what I've seen, you seem to really get off on obsessively picking things apart, and in the case of Dr. Nigam you were quite correct.  I can 100 percent assure you that these guys have nothing in common with him, and you should just let this play out and see what happens. follicept are not scamming anybody, and from my personal contact with dr. hsu, i can tell you that he is exactly the kind of scientist we need on our side.  even if this approach fails, he is extremely interested in the science of AGA and is very curious to come up with a solution. I email with him when I have ideas, and unless asshole pseudo-scientific insecure balding dudes annoy these guys enough, they are very interested in perfecting their technique for AGA.  IGF-1 is only the beginning of a perfected treatment using their vehicle.  What I can tell you is that it is essentially working on the same chemical basis for histogen and PRP, except in a more controlled and direct manner.  The mor epeople learn about hair loss, the more we know that growth factors like IGF-1 (and others) are the chemical mitigators of hair growth and loss.  They are controlled by the androgen, ant, and b catenin pathways among others, and in addition to the observations that follicept has made in rat models that mimic human balding skin, there is ever mounting evidence that IGF-1 is a very important mediating factor in the follicle.  Ignore any articles that have to do with serum levels of IGF-1 (swooping loves those), as they do not indicate a causal relationship with hair growth.  Because of non-disclosure, I cannot tell you everything about it or how/why their method has developed, but like you said, I'm a smart guy who is very objective and don't get excited about things that I don't understand.  Growth factors have continually been proven to influence hair loss, and if I was dr. Hsu I would be pursuing this avenue as well.  The things that they noticed have great promise.  Unlike other people on here I don't have the time to be posting on here continuously, nor do I care to.  Swooping is a waste of time, if your knowledge base on IGF-1 depends on the things he posts then you are being misinformed. all he does is link articles that he does not fully understand.  
> 
> All we can do is wait and see if Devon notices positive results, and if he does, I can assure you that they will run trials which are very professionally done and objective.  They are not indian charlatans who want to make a quick buck.  they are a legitimate startup that wants to address other more devastating diseases, and are excited and passionate about the potential to use it for hair- something they stumbled on (kind of like rogaine or propecia),  These guys are not a huge pharma, and this is is how great discovery in science often works- small groups making big discoveries.  If this pans out, they will not need this forum to market this to bigger players and get it out to the world.  
> 
> As far as my own objectivity, I cannot guarantee this will work, but I have high hopes and am almost 100 percent sure that it will do SOMETHING. IGF-1s effects on hair follicles have been observed way too many times for it to not do anything.  I would similarly not be incredibly surprised if it doesn't work perfectly, or wasn't much better than rogaine. But it could be much better too.   Human trials will be crucial, and I think there are issues with cycling, dosing etc that will need to be ironed out before we have a perfect product.  What I can say is everyone chill the **** out and again, let the pros do their work.  I've been talking to Dr. hsu about more detailed aspects of hair loss pathways, and basically they want to try the IGF-1 approach before getting more complicated, as it may be the most simple and effective current solution. If it works, they won't stop there to perfect a treatment.  
> ...


 awesome post SD.  do you recommend taking adenogen, or waiting until follicept results come out first?!?!????? please let me know bro

----------


## joachim

great post, sdsurfin!
good to know that you're in closer contact with the follicept team. i truely believe that dr. hsu has the skills to make some great hair promoting ****tail. if IGF1 is not enough dr. hsu could add other stuff to the mix like you mentioned. 
who cares about histogen anymore? they are dead anyway. however, we should, if further ingredients should be added to the mix, see how we can find out more about histogen's ingredients. i believe that the follicept vehicle allows for much lower doses, thus much lower side effects, maybe even zero side effects, compared to the injections.

i think follicept could change the hair loss game once and for all. now it's only a matter of finding the right ingredients.

----------


## stayhopeful

I pray for a Devon update tomorrow.  I keep thinking about how life as we know it could change instantly overnight.  No more depression, no more inferiority and hating to look in the mirror.  A new life where you can feel like a normal person, not some premature balding kid

----------


## Arashi

> and in the case of Dr. Nigam you were quite correct


 You forget Yoram, Gho, that colombian company and that Chloro dude. I was 'quite correct' there too, wasn't I ? In fact, when was I ever wrong ? Really, tell me. Doesn't mean I can't be wrong. I can be wrong as anybody. But I've been more often right than all of those hypers here that jump onto any new 'cure' that's being presented here on this forum, 3 times a year. Yet it's always the same "Arashi, you were right before but THIS time it's different, THIS time you're wrong"...




> IGF-1s effects on hair follicles have been observed way too many times for it to not do anything.


 Swooping and I asked you to post 1 study. Just one. You don't have it. All you have is 100% speculation based on your own hopes.




> Because of non-disclosure, I cannot tell you everything about it


 LOL. I laughed out loud. Sdsurfin knows it all true, he's just under non-disclosure  :Smile: 




> I'm a smart guy who is very objective


 Who else keeps calling himself smart on this forum... You're really starting to look like that guy now. 

I once thought highly of you, but you've clearly lost it. And as far as objective: that means being interested in FACTS, you're clearly not. Or do show me that IGF-1 study that shows a tremendous increase in HF count please and I'll shut up. Yeah, I thought so ... Oh and BTW I have studies that show it doesn't work. Would love to show you man, but you know, I'm under non-disclosure  :Smile:  Hahaha. 

Sdsurfin, seriously, what happened to you, man ...

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Please friends, do not respond to Arashi. He continue and he will never stop trolling if you respond. It's a waste of time. He didn't understand the warning from moderation. I think he want to see this topic close. 50 pages with the same arguments, we have to stop with him.

----------


## nameless

I wonder how Follicept's treatment might work in combo with this treatment:

https://www.anzctr.org.au/Trial/Regi...aspx?id=364645

Maybe do one treatment in the morning and the other in the evening. Keep in mind that IGF-1 is a KEY factor in hair growth and Wnt is a key factor in hair growth. If you did one in the morning and one in the other in the evening you would be getting two of the most important growth factors into the follicles.

----------


## Keki

> @Keki, if you want an help for a product from Europe, i can send it you as a gift. It could be better for customs. If you want i can add cheese.


 Ahah thx you but I AM european and basically i eat only cheese lol, i tried to order some times from US and japan, for cosmetics is like a nightmare 99% they block it for months, even tshirt and eletronic can stay there for weeks and weeks then they send you a mail and a call, **** them i just order thing from europe, there is a new regulation between usa and europe so MAYBE things will be easier soon

----------


## stayhopeful

can someone please do me a huge favor and link me to the proper description of the Andenogen I should buy.. there are like a 100 different kinds and I'm very lost.  Also, does anyone else recommend this treatment, and do you think it will be a better idea to just wait for Follicept before messing with new treatments (I have never tried anything yet).  Please help

----------


## sdsurfin

> I wonder how Follicept's treatment might work in combo with this treatment:
> 
> https://www.anzctr.org.au/Trial/Regi...aspx?id=364645
> 
> Maybe do one treatment in the morning and the other in the evening. Keep in mind that IGF-1 is a KEY factor in hair growth and Wnt is a key factor in hair growth. If you did one in the morning and one in the other in the evening you would be getting two of the most important growth factors into the follicles.


 The wnt pathway and growth factors do not function independently. all of these things are tied together chemically.  Both of these treatments show promise though, and my personal hunch is that a combination of a couple of new treatments is going to constitute the next good way to maintain hair in the near future.    


Arashi-

a) nothing has happened to me. I remain objective.  Did you take reading comprehension classes from swooping? I can't believe I have to further explain this. I have no certainty that follicept's treatment will work.  You might be right again about the usefulness and it might be a flop.  That being said, I now have talked to follicept's team individually and personally and I am 100 percent certain that they are not scammers.  The idea that they might be is uneducated and inane, and if you can't decipher that for yourself then I can't help you. I don't have time to debate stupidities.  The fact that there have been a lot of charlatans on here does not logically mean that these guys are at all the same.  Did you think Dr. Gardner was a scammer just because he was on here sharing his research?  These guys have a startup, they stumbled on a potentially awesome approach to treating hair loss, and they welcomed our input because they see the value in working with patients.  I can tell you that they have considered leaving you guys in the dark, because these threads become ridiculous and insulting. They are here to help out, and they know that people on here will be a good gauge to see whether this thing works or not.  

b) I would much rather talk about the science of this with dr. hsu, who has a harvard degree, than with you. I also have no interest in addressing your baiting comments about the non disclosure form. Ask Devon if you think I'm lying.  

c) There's plenty of research on IGF-1 acting to promote anagen and hair growth at the dermal papillae.  I cited tons of articles earlier in this thread when swooping was hassling me, or you can simply google them.  I have no time to go back and dig them up. You're correct, There is no article stating that IGF-1 grows tons of new follicles.  IGF-1 has never been tested for that purpose or been tested the way follicept is using it, except by dr. hsu on mice that are meant to mimic bald human skin.  However, from the research I've done there's no doubt in my mind that IGF-1 plays a major role in hair growth and cycling. Whether it can stand alone as a great treatment is yet to be seen. I myself sent Dr. Hsu a lot of questions and I was pretty confused about the way that IGF-1 works, and its relationship to androgens.  He explained a lot to me and Im not sure what is legit to disclose and what is not, so i have to leave it at that.  

Again, I can't tell you everything about what follicept is thinking or why they think this will work, but it is based on very real observations and insights by some very experienced people. If you are basing your understanding of these pathways on swooping's words and random splattering of unrelated publications, then again I can't help you. The guy has zero reading comprehension or scientific background, and just naysays because he personally decided on a hunch that it won't work.  He also is not privy to how this became of interest to follicept or what the mechanisms behind their approach are.  I'm not saying this approach will definitely work, because human testing is crucial, but I think it has a more than a decent chance.  I also think that it will take a lot of further testing, and though Dr Hsu believes IGF-1 is the lynchpin and simplicity is best, I personally am excited to see what they could do down the road.  The doctor is definitely interested in other key pathways that involve hair loss, as well as testing on humans safely and asap, and he's definitely the kind of researcher that we want to see take an interest in this problem.  Also he had alopecia areata so I think he feels something of the discomfort of losing hair as well.  

I very much believe that hair cell replication is not as far off as most would believe (christiano recently stated that she's helping to start a new company that deals with implanting new HFs) and that it is the future of hair treatment.  However, things like follicept could also prove very useful, and could also act as an adjunct therapy to cell based approaches, which will likely need to be supplemented due to the inhospitable balding scalp environment.  Growth factors, as well as the wnt and b catenin pathways, are the body's keys to this regulation.  We now have follicept targeting the protein/gene aspect of hair loss, we have SM addressing the ant pathway, kythera addressing the pgd2 angle, and hopefully a safer anti androgen on the way, so in my view, good things are bound to come sooner rather than later.  Hair loss and medicine in general went through a pretty dead phase for the past couple of decades, but now they really do know quite a lot about what makes hair and cells tick, and with that knowledge comes progress.  Also look up a company called follicum, they are using a modified bone protein to affect the factors that skin cells put out in order to both grow hair and stop unwanted hair growth.  Could also be a very promising treatment, though they are just starting trials.

----------


## NOhairNOlife

> can someone please do me a huge favor and link me to the proper description of the Andenogen I should buy.. there are like a 100 different kinds and I'm very lost.  Also, does anyone else recommend this treatment, and do you think it will be a better idea to just wait for Follicept before messing with new treatments (I have never tried anything yet).  Please help


 Guys this is derailing the thread by posting these questions about un-related topics. Please keep this thread related to follicept.

But I'll give a quick piece of advise to anybody wondering. Never wait for future treatments, get on FDA approved drugs as soon as possible and when future treatments come to market then you can decide if they are more effective than the current treatments.

----------


## sdsurfin

> awesome post SD.  do you recommend taking adenogen, or waiting until follicept results come out first?!?!????? please let me know bro


 I recommend using whatever we know works now.  There's no guarantee follicept will succeed and both minoxidil and adenogen have been shown to have similar efficacy, which is pretty good for some people.  In my experience adenogen is no miracle cure, but i don't seem to be losing much hair on it.  basically what the trials on adenosine stated.  You can use both adenogen and minox if you want, definitely give minox a try since it is cheap and works for a lot of people to maintain.  It gave me raccoon eyes which is why I stopped.  Lipogaine i think is a bit gentler with the sides for whatever reason.  I don't personally recommend taking fin, I think it's a dangerous drug, but if you want to go down that route and it doesn't give you noticeable sides then thats another functional option until something better emerges.

----------


## sdsurfin

> can someone please do me a huge favor and link me to the proper description of the Andenogen I should buy.. there are like a 100 different kinds and I'm very lost.  Also, does anyone else recommend this treatment, and do you think it will be a better idea to just wait for Follicept before messing with new treatments (I have never tried anything yet).  Please help


 just go on amazon and find the adenogen hair tonic.  not the shampoo, though i suppose you could try that too. Also, stayhopeful, i highly highly highly recommend you get a therapist.  The way you post on here is a huge red flag that your mental health is not being addressed properly.  Losing hair when you're young is no fun, but you need to find confidence and happiness despite life's misfortunes, and a professional will help you do that. there are much worse things that can and probably will happen to you down the road. hair is nothing. I have many friends who lost their hair young and none of them acted like you're acting, they all continued to live happy and useful lives.  Science moves slow and chances are that you might still lose all your hair, and you need to be ok with that.  please find help.  balding is a tough thing, and the best thing you can do is take care of your brain and your outlook, and love yourself no matter what anyone thinks, it is the only good solution to this problem at the moment, and we never know if treatments will pan out in time for us.

----------


## Swooping

The great sdsurfin who calls himself "smart". That says enough. Indeed he lost his mind, but did he ever have one is my question? It's cringe worthy to see sdsurfin talk. Did you learn that all from Dr. Hsu what you just told in your last two posts? You make Follicept look even more bad to be honest. You literally have no clue what you are talking about. Also you have a tendency to promise much to the people here, but when you are asked for evidence you never show it. 

Stop dreaming guys. This isn't going to come close to minoxidil. *I'll give you that 100%.* Every hair biologist would laugh at the thought that this is going to even approach minoxidil in efficiency. This isn't even to grow you cosmetically valuable hair. 






> sdsurfin: except by dr. hsu on mice that are meant to mimic bald human skin.


 LOL. Just no comment.

----------


## Eire1980

> just go on amazon and find the adenogen hair tonic.  not the shampoo, though i suppose you could try that too. Also, stayhopeful, i highly highly highly recommend you get a therapist.  The way you post on here is a huge red flag that your mental health is not being addressed properly.  Losing hair when you're young is no fun, but you need to find confidence and happiness despite life's misfortunes, and a professional will help you do that. there are much worse things that can and probably will happen to you down the road. hair is nothing. I have many friends who lost their hair young and none of them acted like you're acting, they all continued to live happy and useful lives.  Science moves slow and chances are that you might still lose all your hair, and you need to be ok with that.  please find help.  balding is a tough thing, and the best thing you can do is take care of your brain and your outlook, and love yourself no matter what anyone thinks, it is the only good solution to this problem at the moment, and we never know if treatments will pan out in time for us.


 hi - don't want to go off topic of this thread but what is Shiseido Adenogen?...can you pm or send me a link on it..i did a search but didn't see too much on it...I don't want to revert to Fin just yet...cheers

----------


## Keki

> The great sdsurfin who calls himself "smart". That says enough. Indeed he lost his mind, but did he ever have one is my question? It's cringe worthy to see sdsurfin talk. Did you learn that all from Dr. Hsu what you just told in your last two posts? You make Follicept look even more bad to be honest. You literally have no clue what you are talking about. Also you have a tendency to promise much to the people here, but when you are asked for evidence you never show it. 
> 
> Stop dreaming guys. This isn't going to come close to minoxidil. *I'll give you that 100%.* Every hair biologist would laugh at the thought that this is going to even approach minoxidil in efficiency. This isn't even to grow you cosmetically valuable hair. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Just no comment.


 LOL said by someone who don't even read the source of what he post, who think he can teach real doc how injection works

You need a therapist, a good one too, you never understood and will never understand nothing about aga, you can impress some noob ignorant ineducated kid here with some link to korean shop igf seller and publications about igf blood level, the rest of us will just have a good laught rotfl  :Wink:

----------


## Swooping

> LOL said by someone who don't even read the source of what he post, who think he can teach real doc how injection works
> 
> You need a therapist, a good one too, you never understood and will never understand nothing about aga, you can impress some noob ignorant ineducated kid here with some link to korean shop igf seller and publications about igf blood level, the rest of us will just have a good laught rotfl


 A very strong ad hominem to make me feel what, insecure? Oh boy, guys like you are the ones who make my day. Little do you know that with such statements you make yourself even make more ridicilous and discredit follicept their team/product even more. 

Chapeau!

By the way, do you know what the beauty is of it all? Time will show who has it on the right end. Currently I have that, until it's proven otherwise by independent evidence. That's how science works, sorry. We'll see who will have the last laugh "Keki".

----------


## rdas88

Gentlemen,

Ive been a lurker on this forum and I wanted to share some details from a medical textbook that I was going through last day in preparation for my upcoming exams. Im an M.D. student at the University of Toronto in Ontario, Canada. My area of intended specialization is in Dermatology.

Coincidentally, I happened to come upon a section on Genetics and IGF-1 in my exam review readings. The primary author of the textbook is Dr. Jerry Shapiro , co-author is  Nina Otenberg. 

[Author/Physician/ Researcher Introduction:]

By way of background, Dr. Shapiro is a renowned hair restoration surgeon and a hair loss researcher. He is one of the few doctors who happens to be affiliated with the public hair research and skin institute at the University of British Columbias medical school, one of Canadas pre-eminent medical institutions. In addition to being a practicing hair restoration surgeon and doctor, he serves at the NYU  Langone Clinical Center  and UBC- Vancouver. Dr. Shapiro mixes teaching, research and diagnosis all in one. 

Dr. Shapiros research is heavily lab based and he is constantly researching at UBC on hair follicle biology.  Upon closer research, it appears he is the advising physician for Replicel and their RCH-01 trials. Moreover, he is conducting double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials (the first of their kind) on PRP to validate if the hype around PRP growth factors is true or not. (Note: No double-blind , placebo controlled studies on PRP and Androgenic Alopecia exists to date)

To date, Dr. Shapiros stance has been tailored to traditional FDA approved drugs minoxidil and finasteride to treat male pattern baldness. At the last consult, he discouraged use of PRP until further scientific evidence accumulates via double-blind, placebo controlled studies.

IGF-1 is a key part of PRP and one of many growth factors released by PRP,  it is a key area of Dr. Shapiros research. 

http://www.doctorjerryshapiro.com/ (Dr. Shapiros Biography)

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02074943 (PRP Trial - Clinical Trials.gov)

Dr. Nina Otberg is a hair loss restoration surgeon and also teaches, researches  and authors textbooks on hair loss. Dr. Otberg has worked in research labs at the University of Berlin (Germany) and currently is stationed out of the University of British Columbia. Her specialization is in the niche of female pattern baldness.
http://www.hlcp.de/en/personnel

Both Dr. Shapiro and Otberg have authored numerous articles on hair loss in the renowned peer-review journal NATURE which has high standards of review unlike some other smaller peer-reviewed articles

In the research world, Nature has a high Impact Factor compared to many journals because of its strict academic reputation and many researchers and publication cite its research. It is not easy and fairly hard for the average researcher to get published in Nature.  Moreover, many researchers have tried to replicate findings of many Nature research articles (aside)


The textbook authored by Dr. Shapiro and Nina Otberg entitled Hair Loss and Restoration has to say this about IGF-1 and hair follicle biology (meat of the matter):

[Textbook Excerpt]

The expression of Insulin like growth factor (IGF-1) in the dermal papilla is discussed to play an important role in the development of pattern balding. Older men with vertex balding showed higher levels of IGF-1 and lower circulation levels of IGF-1 binding protein 3. A decreased expression of IGF-1 was found in in the scalp tissue.

Source: 
(Genetics in Hair Loss and Restoration, Dr. Jerry Shapiro and Nine Otenberg, pg 28)

https://books.google.ca/books?id=bJG...hapiro&f=false

Analysis:

It appears to me in my academic study of IGF-1 that this growth factor certainly plays a role in hair growth  no question about that. IGF-1 contributes to hair thinning and it is important! That being said, it can be speculated that the dermal papilla senesce in balding men/women impacted by androgenic alopecia is due to two things:

1)	Lower circulation of the  IGF-1 binding protein results in lack of IGF-1 in the scalp and thus, the regular hair follicle cycle is disrupted resulting in thinner and thinner hair until the follicle miniaturizes or goes dormant. The IGF1 binding protein 3 receptors for the dermal papilla are functional

2)	Abnormality or inability of proper  uptake of the IGF1-1 binding protein 3 at the dermal papilla receptors which results in the protein not being used properly even if IGF1 levels are higher and thus progressive miniaturization 

As a medical student, I have to say that Follicepts science is strong and they are  going after the right target. However, the probability of failure is there, and it is high.

Thus I am cautiously watching and observing here. Who said science was simple?

This can obviously fail too, the complexity of the hair follicle has evaded a cure for so long. We have to wait and see the results.

The Challenge:

If Point # 1  holds true, then Follicept is likely to work. If Point # 2 holds true then, Follicept will fail.

The challenge or onus is on Follicept to show their trials one-man and multiple specimen experiments and publish results from double-blind placebo controlled fashion.

----------


## diffuseloser

Thanks rdas88. Very interesting post. Let's hope point 1 holds true. Guys please stop having a go at eachother. It's not about who's right and who's wrong. We're not kids here. We will see the outcome of this soon enough.

----------


## Helix

> Gentlemen,
> 
> Ive been a lurker on this forum and I wanted to share some details from a medical textbook that I was going through last day in preparation for my upcoming exams. Im an M.D. student at the University of Toronto in Ontario, Canada. My area of intended specialization is in Dermatology.
> 
> Coincidentally, I happened to come upon a section on Genetics and IGF-1 in my exam review readings. The primary author of the textbook is Dr. Jerry Shapiro , co-author is  Nina Otenberg. 
> 
> [Author/Physician/ Researcher Introduction:]
> 
> By way of background, Dr. Shapiro is a renowned hair restoration surgeon and a hair loss researcher. He is one of the few doctors who happens to be affiliated with the public hair research and skin institute at the University of British Columbias medical school, one of Canadas pre-eminent medical institutions. In addition to being a practicing hair restoration surgeon and doctor, he serves at the NYU  Langone Clinical Center  and UBC- Vancouver. Dr. Shapiro mixes teaching, research and diagnosis all in one. 
> ...


 Would you agree that this igf-1 binding problem looks a lot like insulin resistance at hair follicle level ?

----------


## Helix

This is not about IGF-1 it is more about carbohydrate metabolism in hair follicles. I thought it might be useful. I am convinced that overcoming insulin resistance at hair follicle level is the key. Sorry for the large images, I couldn't find the studies in other form.

----------


## Johnny2000

> 1. Hopefully within a month or two. They've received the IGF-1 shipment and were waiting on other ingredients. If all went well, Devon and co. started their personal trials today. Papers suggested that results may be visible after 12 days, but we don't know much.
> 
> 2. They want it out by the end of the year.
> 
> 3. To buy from Denmark? Or to have it shipped to Denmark? At any rate, we don't know.
> 
> 4. They said they don't expect a shed, but again, we won't know until they test it.


 Thx mate 😉

----------


## Arashi

> There is no article stating that IGF-1 grows tons of new follicles.  IGF-1 has never been tested for that purpose or been tested the way follicept is using it, except by dr. hsu on mice that are meant to mimic bald human skin.


 Ok, so all you have is that it works on mice (like pretty much everything works on mice, however not on us humans). And like Swooping posted, on humans high IGF-1 levels are usually associated with hair LOSS, not hair growth.

So if people would approach all this with: "I dont know if this works, but it will be interesting to see this", then we'd be all fine. Yet this topic is filled with people who already KNOW 99.9% sure this will work, or even GUARANTEE that growthfactors like this can grow new hair (your own words). And all that is exactly why hairloss fora are THE ideal place for people to come to, who have less than honest idea's on how to make money.

Take a step back, have some scepticsim towards all new treatments that are being presented here 3 times a year, till we see proof that's worth believing.

----------


## serenemoon

> Ok, so all you have is that it works on mice (like pretty much everything works on mice, however not on us humans). And like Swooping posted, on humans high IGF-1 levels are usually associated with hair LOSS, not hair growth.
> 
> So if people would approach all this with: "I dont know if this works, but it will be interesting to see this", then we'd be all fine. Yet this topic is filled with people who already KNOW 99.9% sure this will work, or even GUARANTEE that growthfactors like this can grow new hair (your own words). And all that is exactly why hairloss fora are THE ideal place for people to come to, who have less than honest idea's on how to make money.
> 
> Take a step back, have some scepticsim towards all new treatments that are being presented here 3 times a year, till we see proof that's worth believing.


 You are right that none of us can guarantee that this treatment can work. 

In terms of high IGF-1 levels and hair loss, here you go.

"All of these studies are retrospective case-control association studies. They are looking at associations from a database of information that includes whether individuals have AGA and whether they have IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 levels. Association studies are not evidence of causation. Only prospective studies specifically designed to answer the question address causation. This is a basic principle in epidemiology. Retrospective studies are convenient to do and often provide the impetus to do prospective studies to provide evidence for causation. They are also subject to many kinds of bias, which is one of the reasons why they are not considered as definitive evidence for causation.

A good example to illustrate this principle is an outstanding retrospective association study that controls extensively for bias, which clearly demonstrates that hypoglycemia in persons with diabetes on insulin therapy is "associated" with death. Even in this landmark study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, which is the basis for recommendations by every diabetes association in every country to avoid hypoglycemia, the authors were very careful to point out that it may not be hypoglycemia itself that causes death. It may be a surrogate marker for death. One way to think about this is that "A" (hypoglycemia) may be associated with but not directly be the cause of "C" (death). "A" may correlate with the actual cause of death ('B'), which is not yet known.

Thus, low IGFBP-3 and high free IGF-1 levels in blood ("A") may be found to be associated with AGA ("C"), but this is not the same as saying high IGF-1 causes AGA, since they may correlate with the actual mediator of AGA ("B"), which may not yet be clearly established.

The concentration of IGF-1 in Follicept is about the same or lower than normal free IGF-1 levels based on age (children have the highest levels because they need it for normal growth) and about the same target blood level for IGF-1 hormone replacement in children with congenital IGF-1 deficiency. The high levels in children, teens, and young adults are physiologic and are not associated with hair loss. Follicept contains a physiologic concentration of IGF-1 that it delivers across the skin to the dermal papilla where IGF-1 receptors are expressed." - Devon.

----------


## NOhairNOlife

I don't know if any of you have seen this video by a company called nanogen, it seems they are trying to do exactly what follicept is accomplishing. But I can't see that they(nanogen) went anywhere with it. 

watch the whole thing but at around 3 minutes 40 seconds is where they show exactly what follicept is trying to accomplish:

https://youtu.be/aWK6qJFvWoM

----------


## Arashi

> the authors were very careful to point out that it may not be hypoglycemia itself that causes death. It may be a surrogate marker for death. One way to think about this is that "A" (hypoglycemia) may be associated with but not directly be the cause of "C" (death). "A" may correlate with the actual cause of death ('B'), which is not yet known.


 And then look at AGA, which is even a MUCH MUCH MUCH more complicated process that we're not even close to understanding. Yet, a single growth factor, that's been tested and tried for years would all of a sudden be the solution, because of their magical new way of delivering it ? It just seems HIGHLY unlikely that's all.

All I'm saying: take a step back, have some sceptiscim towards all these new treatments and cures, till we'll see some proof we can actually trust.

----------


## kantian

> Ok, so all you have is that it works on mice (like pretty much everything works on mice, however not on us humans). And like Swooping posted, on humans high IGF-1 levels are usually associated with hair LOSS, not hair growth.
> 
> So if people would approach all this with: "I dont know if this works, but it will be interesting to see this", then we'd be all fine. Yet this topic is filled with people who already KNOW 99.9% sure this will work, or even GUARANTEE that growthfactors like this can grow new hair (your own words). And all that is exactly why hairloss fora are THE ideal place for people to come to, who have less than honest idea's on how to make money.
> 
> Take a step back, have some scepticsim towards all new treatments that are being presented here 3 times a year, till we see proof that's worth believing.


 I agree with this completely. The most reasonable thing that has been said in this forum. 

I do think we should continue doing the research and giving reasons why IGF-1 will or will not work. But some people here are too confident, and putting too much hope into something that has very little evidence so far.

----------


## serenemoon

> And then look at AGA, which is even a MUCH MUCH MUCH more complicated process that we're not even close to understanding. Yet, a single growth factor, that's been tested and tried for years would all of a sudden be the solution, because of their magical new way of delivering it ? It just seems HIGHLY unlikely that's all.
> 
> All I'm saying: take a step back, have some sceptiscim till we'll see some proof we can actually trust.


 IGF-1 may be a single growth factor, but may cause a CHAIN of other growth factors and hair friendly mechanisms to be activated, that may make a bigger impact than we think a "single growth factor" can do.

For an example, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283847/

Shows that IGF-1 also upregulates PDGF-1 and PDGF-2 (also growth factors) and has beneficial effects on hair. So there you go, a single growth factor may be able to do a lot, but on the other hand, it may not be able to make much of a difference. We will see. And of course, I have no arguments against the fact that a healthy amount of skepticism is necessary. Even Devon has admitted that this may not work. So there you go.

----------


## Swooping

@Serenemoon

It's not only these studies, that is actually the worst evidence I provided. It was just to create a nuance to show that papers can contradict itself. I knew beforehand that plasma levels of IGF-1 don't have any contribution to the pathology of Androgenetic Alopecia (AGA), or don't even have impact on it. Why?

We can extrapolate real observational evidence of people with Laronn Syndrome and Acrogemaly. The former condition is characterized by a huge deficiency of IGF-1. The latter is characterized by huge elevated concentrations of IGF-1. Yet both can suffer from AGA. From the most pictures that I saw people with Laronn Syndrome have awesome hair even at an old age though. 

If IGF-1 plasma levels would have an huge impact upstream in the cascade of AGA we would at least see some evidence of something occurring in one of those conditions. For instance that people with Acrogemaly would be pretty "immune" to AGA. Yet we don't see any of that happening, especially in relation to the FOXO1 hypothesis of Prometheon Pharma.   

Even more important; how can plasma levels of IGF-1 even have influence on AGA? It has been confirmed for ages that the cascade of AGA starts with androgens which subsequently bind to the androgen receptors (AR) in the dermal papilla. Therefore any receptors on the dermal papilla itself don't have any influence on AGA, other than the AR. Remove the AR and no AGA can occur. It starts with AR and goes downstream. Nobody can deny this period. If we would deny this we may just as well re-write all our literature on AGA. 

Now may there be some paracrine mediating action going from the dermal papilla in relation IGF-1? Surely that's  true, after all the hair follicle is a mini-organ and it secretes IGF-1 itself, just like the liver does in way bigger amount. What is this paracrine action? Nobody knows, literally nobody. We don't even have biological models to measure such an action. Perhaps it secretes IGF-1 solely for the matrix cells in some fashionable complex cell to cell communication (anecdote example). 

Is this paracrine mediating action of IGF-1 from the dermal papilla important in the micro-environment itself? Maybe. Who knows maybe complete ablation of it would indeed retard hair growth. 

However will IGF-1 now be beneficial in relation to AGA? Most likely not. Jup it may shift the telogen/anagen ratio as telogen hair follicles itself are sensitive to environmental stimuli specifically growth factors (2014, re-defining telogen) and are easily induced into anagen.

How many growth factors, cytokines, proteins do AAPE have and Histogen do you think who are both actually even derived from real human source, not e.coli? Easily 50+. That with the fact that IGF-1 has been around for ages. Doctors have tried injecting it, it's been present in various cosmetics in the same range of 1-10PPM and still is.

Then Prometheon Pharma can only throw to me that they have a "better vehicle". That the "magic" lies in their delivery method. REALLY? 

It's really almost ignorant to think that IGF-1 will do much at all, you don't even want to know how complex the pathology of AGA as has been shown by latest research papers. You think it's this easy? Let me tell you it's not.

----------


## serenemoon

@Swooping,

About plasma levels of IGF-1 not having an impact, this is pretty much what Devon mentioned anyway, that they don't see any proof that a clear causation effect has been established. 

I reaize that you are very confident that Follicept will most likely not be beneficial. Let's see what happens. I really can't wait for these trials to start now  :Smile:

----------


## cr1mson

> @Serenemoon
> 
> It's not only these studies, that is actually the worst evidence I provided. It was just to create a nuance to show that papers can contradict itself. I knew beforehand that plasma levels of IGF-1 don't have any contribution to the pathology of Androgenetic Alopecia (AGA), or don't even have impact on it. Why?
> 
> We can extrapolate real observational evidence of people with Laronn Syndrome and Acrogemaly. The former condition is characterized by a huge deficiency of IGF-1. The latter is characterized by huge elevated concentrations of IGF-1. Yet both can suffer from AGA. From the most pictures that I saw people with Laronn Syndrome have awesome hair even at an old age though. 
> 
> If IGF-1 plasma levels would have an huge impact upstream in the cascade of AGA we would at least see some evidence of something occurring in one of those conditions. For instance that people with Acrogemaly would be pretty "immune" to AGA. Yet we don't see any of that happening, especially in relation to the FOXO1 hypothesis of Prometheon Pharma.   
> 
> Even more important; how can plasma levels of IGF-1 even have influence on AGA? It has been confirmed for ages that the cascade of AGA starts with androgens which subsequently bind to the androgen receptors (AR) in the dermal papilla. Therefore any receptors on the dermal papilla itself don't have any influence on AGA, other than the AR. Remove the AR and no AGA can occur. It starts with AR and goes downstream. Nobody can deny this period. If we would deny this we may just as well re-write all our literature on AGA. 
> ...


 You know what ignorance means? No one is saying this is going to work, but also just saying its not going to work 100% is ignorant. Devon is being transparent, not asking anything of us, and is motivated by the same thing we all are; the fact that we are balding. Obviously everyone knows how complex AGA is, it is evident in the last 2000 years without a cure. But when Arashi and yourself come into these threads and act like know it alls, and attack Devon personally, repeatedly calling him scammer, it just looks unbecoming. You are one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum, and I see people asking you for advice all the time. Instead of helping people, you put them down and attack them personally, multiple times questioning their IQ level. At the end of the day this is a balding forum, and it serves no purpose you trying to show that your smarter then everyone else all the time. Why don't we let Devon do his thing, and if it fails like you say it will, you can make a "I told you so" thread, and we'll all post in it apologizing. But until then, why don't you guys chill out.

----------


## bigentries

> You know what ignorance means? No one is saying this is going to work, but also just saying its not going to work 100% is ignorant. Devon is being transparent, not asking anything of us, and is motivated by the same thing we all are; the fact that we are balding. Obviously everyone knows how complex AGA is, it is evident in the last 2000 years without a cure. But when Arashi and yourself come into these threads and act like know it alls, and attack Devon personally, repeatedly calling him scammer, it just looks unbecoming. You are one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum, and I see people asking you for advice all the time. Instead of helping people, you put them down and attack them personally, multiple times questioning their IQ level. At the end of the day this is a balding forum, and it serves no purpose you trying to show that your smarter then everyone else all the time. Why don't we let Devon do his thing, and if it fails like you say it will, you can make a "I told you so" thread, and we'll all post in it apologizing. But until then, why don't you guys chill out.


 No one has apologised for pushing former scams as far as I remember. In fact former scam enablers are posting in this thread with the same naive positivity as before

----------


## Swooping

> You know what ignorance means? No one is saying this is going to work, but also just saying its not going to work 100% is ignorant. Devon is being transparent, not asking anything of us, and is motivated by the same thing we all are; the fact that we are balding. Obviously everyone knows how complex AGA is, it is evident in the last 2000 years without a cure. But when Arashi and yourself come into these threads and act like know it alls, and attack Devon personally, repeatedly calling him scammer, it just looks unbecoming. You are one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum, and I see people asking you for advice all the time. Instead of helping people, you put them down and attack them personally, multiple times questioning their IQ level. At the end of the day this is a balding forum, and it serves no purpose you trying to show that your smarter then everyone else all the time. Why don't we let Devon do his thing, and if it fails like you say it will, you can make a "I told you so" thread, and we'll all post in it apologizing. But until then, why don't you guys chill out.


 Ok, let me react on this one. First of all I still help people weekly. I get PM's on a regular basis from people.  I will always argue that going bald is not the end of the world (far from it) and I'm open to (scientific) discussions from everyone. I even encourage people to engage in scientific discussions. Yes I do however get extremely fierce if people make valid points and ignorant people come in. How can that even be good man? Do we need to have a educated strong community? Or a community full of emotional guys who can't think clearly anymore and will buy every snake-oil there is? It's pretty apparent that if we had a community full of Arashi's in history we would be definitely sitting with way better treatments now, trust me. 

I respect everyone, literally everyone. However what I don't really like is Prometheon Pharma, making a big hype out of all this. Just read their website man. It's nothing more than hype pur sang. Nothing more than that. Why do that when you don't have any evidence? I smell fish because of this especially in relation of such a treatment on a scientific and logical level. It just doesn't feel right.

Furthermore I never question anyone his IQ level. I think everyone is intelligent. Yes I will return the ball if you are extremely ignorant or attack me. I can still learn from some people here, and I do on a daily basis. So no I don't feel smart or smarter than anyone else, I'm not sdsurfin. Let that be clear please.

----------


## cr1mson

That is neither here nor there. Devon, hasn't even started selling anything, so until he does it doesn't even make sense to call this a scam. And if people want to have hope, let them. I understand your trying to be a realist, not an optimistic, but some people need hope. We all are in a shitty position with AGA, some people cope different ways. Just trying to say be fair, and chill with the accusations until something is actually for sale.

----------


## Jagger

It's Tuesday, I hope Devon's got some news. Interesting documents about IGF-1 being posted, though they don't really persuade me one way or the other. Cautious optimism, as always.

----------


## Swooping

> That is neither here nor there. Devon, hasn't even started selling anything, so until he does it doesn't even make sense to call this a scam. And if people want to have hope, let them. I understand your trying to be a realist, not an optimistic, but some people need hope. We all are in a shitty position with AGA, some people cope different ways. Just trying to say be fair, and chill with the accusations until something is actually for sale.


 Sure, I completely agree. Do whatever you want what makes you happy. Everyone handles it differently. 

However generally speaking I think going out from a philosophy of skepticism is very healthy in stimulating innovation/real progress. Isn't that what we all want? The answer to that from every AGA sufferer whether a realistic, optimistic or negative person would be YES.

Does that include hyping people who are clearly emotionally driven without any evidence beforehand? I really don't think so cr1mson. Why? We have seen how this went in the past. Whether it was from a Indian charlatan or a goddamn NASA scientist. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I furthermore concur with Arashi that in-house trials don't mean much these days. They really don't. I can give you many many examples which look so great on paper but in reality don't do much.  

Anyway, indeed we'll see soon enough.

----------


## Helix

> @Serenemoon
> 
> It's not only these studies, that is actually the worst evidence I provided. It was just to create a nuance to show that papers can contradict itself. I knew beforehand that plasma levels of IGF-1 don't have any contribution to the pathology of Androgenetic Alopecia (AGA), or don't even have impact on it. Why?
> 
> We can extrapolate real observational evidence of people with Laronn Syndrome and Acrogemaly. The former condition is characterized by a huge deficiency of IGF-1. The latter is characterized by huge elevated concentrations of IGF-1. Yet both can suffer from AGA. From the most pictures that I saw people with Laronn Syndrome have awesome hair even at an old age though. 
> 
> If IGF-1 plasma levels would have an huge impact upstream in the cascade of AGA we would at least see some evidence of something occurring in one of those conditions. For instance that people with Acrogemaly would be pretty "immune" to AGA. Yet we don't see any of that happening, especially in relation to the FOXO1 hypothesis of Prometheon Pharma.


 Why are you even talking about circulating IGF-1 ?  Circulating levels are not indicator of tissue and peripheral levels, actually they are usually inversely related. 

I don't have time to go through all your posts so please answer me is your best evidence that people with high circulating IGF-1 levels still lose hair ?

----------


## follicept

Hey everybody, 

It is Tuesday and here with an update as promised. As usual, a few things to address:

First, excluding the attacks, the thread has been very helpful to us in getting up to speed on the history and science of hair loss, as we are relatively new to this field, so thank you. Even swooping and arashi have had some positive contributions, so we believe everyone is valuable here. Even if the ideas ultimately don't pan out or are disproven, healthy discussion is always beneficial. 

Kind of along those lines, I can confirm that sdsurfin does have an NDA with us and his ideas have been very helpful. Again, some didn't pan out, but they got us (well, really Dr. Hsu) to think and investigate further and solidify our theories on this. 

Further, some have questioned our document prepared by one of our employees (who is now off on his way to MD/PhD program) and we have learned a lot since then. I will be taking that down, and Dr. Hsu is creating a PPT for a different purpose that will clearly explain our theories and the pathways we think this will take to effect hair loss. Some will understand and agree, some will hate it, but you will know where we stand and why we think that works. I will link that on the Follicept site by the end of the week most likely. In talking to Dr. Hsu just now (again more depth on this when we post the document, and I am still learning the science) we think this will be importantly a pulse therapy- use it 3x/week for a month, and it should induce anagen phase for perhaps even 1 year or longer. This will likely mean a higher upfront price, but still saving money long term vs. minox and other treatments. 

Regarding use of other therapies, and the question about shedding: this is intended to be a standalone therapy, and we have not tested other therapies with it. Given that minox and fin are after similar things, it is important to use Follicept on its own. Thus, users should either be treatment naive or "baseline" which means letting other treatments be washed out of your system, and yes, the dreaded shedding. I know this will cause a firestorm and ask that you refer to the document I will post later this week to understand why. The layman's/Devon version is that we need to let the follicles/DP go to their natural, inhibited, shrunken state so that we can wake them up again and induce anagen phase for the long term. 

As for a forum trial, Dr. Hsu said it would not be prudent for reasons others here have posted: from the Hippocratic Oath- "First, do no harm." Since this is still being tested, we need to control the environment and application to ensure safety. Assuming we get some positive results, we will launch the indiegogo at around the same time as the clinical trial, and those interested on the forum can obtain it and post their results to boost confidence and hopefully the performance of the indiegogo and sway those who are waiting for more proof. 

Now, for the big news. Other ingredients have been ordered (slight hitch with another supplier, fixed now), and will arrive tomorrow and Thursday. We will work all weekend to prepare the batch, and I will begin this coming Monday. I will film the application (maybe even do it live if I can find a way to broadcast? Anyone know a way?), and from then on do #folliceptfridays with updates on progress- video and pics, again maybe live. 

I am starting a new thread exclusively for trial updates and discussion, let's keep all the flaming and trolling on this one. Let the naysaying commence!

----------


## Helix

> 1. http://www.worldhairresearch.com/?p=64
> 
> 
> 
> 2. http://escholarship.org/uc/item/2v79r893
> 
> 
> 
> 3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10827403
> ...


 I am rereading your posts. Once again you are using circulating IGF-1 as evidence. Do you know about Insulin-like growth factor-binding protein ?

----------


## Swooping

> Why are you even talking about circulating IGF-1 ?  Circulating levels are not indicator of tissue and peripheral levels, actually they are usually inversely related. 
> 
> I don't have time to go through all your posts so please answer me is your best evidence that people with high circulating IGF-1 levels still lose hair ?


 If you read my whole post then you can read that I argue that IGF-1 circulating levels don't have any impact on the pathology of AGA. If IGF-1 wants to exert a biological response it must activate cells by binding to cell surface receptors. So theoretically circulating IGF-1 levels could contribute to the pathology of AGA as the DP holds those. However seeing from the observational evidence and papers we can say that this is unlikely/impossible. 

Let me give a other example. An unhealthy thyroid function may compromise your hair health unrelated to AGA namely telogen effluvium which is characterized by a shifted telogen/anagen ratio. This can happen through the TSH/TRH receptors on the DP. However this isn't related to the pathology of AGA itself. Even such a thing is unlikely with IGF-1 probably because we don't see evidence in people with Laronn Syndrome and Acrogemaly, whether those are extreme high circulating levels of IGF-1 or extreme low levels

You are correct that in tissue, IGF-1 is produced by mesenchymal type of cells, the dermal papilla being one those type of cells. Some cell to cell communication may be apparent there in the form of paracrine signalling. Although autocrine signalling is possible too. So the dermal papilla may "message" other cells in the micro-environment of the hair follicle with the produced IGF-1 so it can bind to these specific cell regulatory receptors in a complicated manner to other cells. Perhaps IGF-1 isn't that important for the DP itself as you may think but only for the keratonicytes of the hair follicle to name as an example. 

Perhaps even pure IGF-1 receptor knockout wouldn't even retard hair growth in humans. IGF-1 receptor knockout mice have fewer, smaller, and earlier hair follicle development but still develop hair. EVEN AFTER FULL KOCKOUT.

It may not be that important as you think not even related to androgenetic alopecia itself but to the whole hair follicle biology.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> Hey everybody, 
> 
> It is Tuesday and here with an update as promised. As usual, a few things to address:
> 
> First, excluding the attacks, the thread has been very helpful to us in getting up to speed on the history and science of hair loss, as we are relatively new to this field, so thank you. Even swooping and arashi have had some positive contributions, so we believe everyone is valuable here. Even if the ideas ultimately don't pan out or are disproven, healthy discussion is always beneficial. 
> 
> Kind of along those lines, I can confirm that sdsurfin does have an NDA with us and his ideas have been very helpful. Again, some didn't pan out, but they got us (well, really Dr. Hsu) to think and investigate further and solidify our theories on this. 
> 
> Further, some have questioned our document prepared by one of our employees (who is now off on his way to MD/PhD program) and we have learned a lot since then. I will be taking that down, and Dr. Hsu is creating a PPT for a different purpose that will clearly explain our theories and the pathways we think this will take to effect hair loss. Some will understand and agree, some will hate it, but you will know where we stand and why we think that works. I will link that on the Follicept site by the end of the week most likely. In talking to Dr. Hsu just now (again more depth on this when we post the document, and I am still learning the science) we think this will be importantly a pulse therapy- use it 3x/week for a month, and it should induce anagen phase for perhaps even 1 year or longer. This will likely mean a higher upfront price, but still saving money long term vs. minox and other treatments. 
> ...


 Many thanks Devon for all these news! I can't wait to be on monday!

----------


## Helix

> If you read my whole post then you can read that I argue that IGF-1 circulating levels don't have any impact on the pathology of AGA. If IGF-1 wants to exert a biological response it must activate cells by binding to cell surface receptors. So theoretically circulating IGF-1 levels could contribute to the pathology of AGA as the DP holds those. However seeing from the observational evidence and papers we can say that this is unlikely/impossible. 
> 
> Let me give a other example. An unhealthy thyroid function may compromise your hair health unrelated to AGA namely telogen effluvium which is characterized by a shifted telogen/anagen ratio. This can be done through the TSH/TRH receptors on the DP. However this isn't related to the pathology of AGA itself. 
> 
> You are correct that in tissue, IGF-1 is produced by mesenchymal type of cells, the dermal papilla being one those type of cells. Some cell to cell communication may be apparent there in the form of paracrine signalling. Although autocrine signalling is possible too. So the dermal papilla may "message" other cells in the micro-environment with the produced IGF-1 so it can bind to these specific cell regulatory receptors in a complicated manner. Perhaps IGF-1 isn't that important for the DP itself as you may think but only for the keratonicytes of the hair follicle to name as an example. 
> 
> Perhaps even pure IGF-1 receptor knockout wouldn't even retard hair growth in humans. IGF-1 receptor knockout mice have fewer, smaller, and earlier hair follicle development but still develop hair. EVEN AFTER FULL KOCKOUT.
> 
> It may not be that important as you think not even related to androgenetic alopecia itself but to the whole hair follicle biology.


 I don't understand what you are trying to say.

You used studies with circulating IGF-1 levels to show that IGF-1 is somehow bad for us because it correlates with AGA.

That is simply wrong. It's the same as saying that insulin is bad for us because people with diabetes (type 2) have high circulating insulin levels.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

Thanks for the update, Devon. I too will be in high anticipation for Monday, and I will be here when you post!

----------


## Jagger

> Hey everybody, 
> 
> It is Tuesday and here with an update as promised. As usual, a few things to address:
> 
> First, excluding the attacks, the thread has been very helpful to us in getting up to speed on the history and science of hair loss, as we are relatively new to this field, so thank you. Even swooping and arashi have had some positive contributions, so we believe everyone is valuable here. Even if the ideas ultimately don't pan out or are disproven, healthy discussion is always beneficial. 
> 
> Kind of along those lines, I can confirm that sdsurfin does have an NDA with us and his ideas have been very helpful. Again, some didn't pan out, but they got us (well, really Dr. Hsu) to think and investigate further and solidify our theories on this. 
> 
> Further, some have questioned our document prepared by one of our employees (who is now off on his way to MD/PhD program) and we have learned a lot since then. I will be taking that down, and Dr. Hsu is creating a PPT for a different purpose that will clearly explain our theories and the pathways we think this will take to effect hair loss. Some will understand and agree, some will hate it, but you will know where we stand and why we think that works. I will link that on the Follicept site by the end of the week most likely. In talking to Dr. Hsu just now (again more depth on this when we post the document, and I am still learning the science) we think this will be importantly a pulse therapy- use it 3x/week for a month, and it should induce anagen phase for perhaps even 1 year or longer. This will likely mean a higher upfront price, but still saving money long term vs. minox and other treatments. 
> ...


 As far as live broadcast, I know of Twitch. I think Youtube also does livestreaming of some sort. Admittedly I'm not well versed in this type of thing.

Great news all around, it seems.

The whole pulse therapy idea is really strange, but inducing anagen phase for up to one year after a month of treatment? That is cool. I hope it works out. Plus pulse therapy is way more convenient than wearing the gel every other night. 

I am really excited for you guys and I wish you the best of luck, not just for your company but for the benefit of everyone here.

Do you have any ideas as to whether or not Follicept would work to grow hair on other parts of the body? I know it hasn't been tested yet but I was wondering if the theories say anything about other kinds of hair. My eyebrows have gotten rather light over the last few years and could use a little bit of thickening. Plus if it worked well enough it'd make a fun prank, writing your name in gel on someone's back or something and waiting for their spouse to notice (Why does your new back hair spell "Jagger"?!)

----------


## follicept

> As far as live broadcast, I know of Twitch. I think Youtube also does livestreaming of some sort. Admittedly I'm not well versed in this type of thing.
> 
> Great news all around, it seems.
> 
> The whole pulse therapy idea is really strange, but inducing anagen phase for up to one year after a month of treatment? That is cool. I hope it works out. Plus pulse therapy is way more convenient than wearing the gel every other night. 
> 
> I am really excited for you guys and I wish you the best of luck, not just for your company but for the benefit of everyone here.
> 
> Do you have any ideas as to whether or not Follicept would work to grow hair on other parts of the body? I know it hasn't been tested yet but I was wondering if the theories say anything about other kinds of hair. My eyebrows have gotten rather light over the last few years and could use a little bit of thickening. Plus if it worked well enough it'd make a fun prank, writing your name in gel on someone's back or something and waiting for their spouse to notice (Why does your new back hair spell "Jagger"?!)


 Thanks!

To be clear, it will still be 3x/week for 4 weeks, but then stop. That's what we mean by pulse. Thanks for that! Not sure about other areas, I will ask Dr. Hsu his thoughts at some point. HAHAHAHA dirty.

----------


## Keki

I can't believe i made the right choice waiting a month before treatments, i hope it works

----------


## IvanXproject

For how long are you guys going to do the trials? Will the follicept be for sale as soon as you get any results? Or do you have like a "minimum" number of weeks/ months you have to go through first? (For example, if you get visible results after 4 weeks, you still have to continue with the treatment for 3 more months before you can start to sell it?)

----------


## Swooping

> I don't understand what you are trying to say.
> 
> You used studies with circulating IGF-1 levels to show that IGF-1 is somehow bad for us because it correlates with AGA.
> 
> That is simply wrong. It's the same as saying that insulin is bad for us because people with diabetes (type 2) have high circulating insulin levels.


 I did that in the beginning of the topic, pages ago. I wanted to create a nuance that papers can contradict itself and to gauge what Devon would say. AGA is simply the effect of Androgens > AR (which are located on the DP). Then goes downstream.

No circulating levels of IGF-1 have correlation with AGA. Only indirect maybe through hormonal intervention of SHBG, which can make your FAI higher and your estrogen lower. I just argue that. Only paracrine & autocrine signalling mediated IGF-1 and produced from within the DP in the micro environment of the hair follicle may have an effect. But probably not to Androgenetic Alopecia itself, only to hair follicle biology itself. It is quite logical that a miniaturized hair follicle doesn't secrete much or none IGF-1 just as many many other factors. Same with a telogen hair follicle. You can shift anagen/telogen ratio in anyone giving him more hair growth, even on a NW1 person. That's easy, but it won't yield much growth. Reversing AGA is a whole different league. 

Hope you understand now.

----------


## follicept

> For how long are you guys going to do the trials? Will the follicept be for sale as soon as you get any results? Or do you have like a "minimum" number of weeks/ months you have to go through first? (For example, if you get visible results after 4 weeks, you still have to continue with the treatment for 3 more months before you can start to sell it?)


 No, if/when we start to see good efficacy we will launch the indiegogo. We will maintain trials/monitoring for the long term to see effects in terms of how long the pulse therapy works, but once we are confident we will begin sales and ask your support to keep us updated on results for a nice database.

----------


## Helix

> I did that in the beginning of the topic, pages ago. I wanted to create a nuance that papers can contradict itself and to gauge what Devon would say. AGA is simply the effect of Androgens > AR (which are located on the DP). Then goes downstream.


 You might used that as some kind a test for Devon, but other people are quoting that post as a proof that IGF-1 is bad for hair.




> Only paracrine & autocrine signalling mediated IGF-1 and produced from within the DP in the micro environment of the hair follicle may have an effect.


 On what evidence do you base that conclusion ?

----------


## grayfoxxx

> Regarding use of other therapies, and the question about shedding: this is intended to be a standalone therapy, and we have not tested other therapies with it. Given that minox and fin are after similar things, it is important to use Follicept on its own. Thus, users should either be treatment naive or "baseline" which means letting other treatments be washed out of your system, and yes, the dreaded shedding. I know this will cause a firestorm and ask that you refer to the document I will post later this week to understand why. The layman's/Devon version is that we need to let the follicles/DP go to their natural, inhibited, shrunken state so that we can wake them up again and induce anagen phase for the long term.


 omg... that's a really bad news for me  :Frown:

----------


## Keki

> omg... that's a really bad news for me


 It's not a bad news at all, if they succeed to give the same effect of minox you can free yourself from lotions for the rest of your life, i image for people who travel a lot using minox and the pill everyday it's a nightmare

----------


## hellouser

> Hey everybody, 
> 
> It is Tuesday and here with an update as promised. As usual, a few things to address:
> 
> First, excluding the attacks, the thread has been very helpful to us in getting up to speed on the history and science of hair loss, as we are relatively new to this field, so thank you. Even swooping and arashi have had some positive contributions, so we believe everyone is valuable here. Even if the ideas ultimately don't pan out or are disproven, healthy discussion is always beneficial. 
> 
> Kind of along those lines, I can confirm that sdsurfin does have an NDA with us and his ideas have been very helpful. Again, some didn't pan out, but they got us (well, really Dr. Hsu) to think and investigate further and solidify our theories on this. 
> 
> Further, some have questioned our document prepared by one of our employees (who is now off on his way to MD/PhD program) and we have learned a lot since then. I will be taking that down, and Dr. Hsu is creating a PPT for a different purpose that will clearly explain our theories and the pathways we think this will take to effect hair loss. Some will understand and agree, some will hate it, but you will know where we stand and why we think that works. I will link that on the Follicept site by the end of the week most likely. In talking to Dr. Hsu just now (again more depth on this when we post the document, and I am still learning the science) we think this will be importantly a pulse therapy- use it 3x/week for a month, and it should induce anagen phase for perhaps even 1 year or longer. This will likely mean a higher upfront price, but still saving money long term vs. minox and other treatments. 
> ...


 You'll want at least some individuals trying out different protocals. Minox and Fin dont work very well on their own, but when combined together results are sometimes very good. There are many pathways of MPB, so limiting everyone to IGF-1 is selling yourself short.

----------


## NOhairNOlife

> Hey everybody, 
> 
> Regarding use of other therapies, and the question about shedding: this is intended to be a standalone therapy, and we have not tested other therapies with it. Given that minox and fin are after similar things, it is important to use Follicept on its own. Thus, users should either be treatment naive or "baseline" which means letting other treatments be washed out of your system, and yes, the dreaded shedding. I know this will cause a firestorm and ask that you refer to the document I will post later this week to understand why. The layman's/Devon version is that we need to let the follicles/DP go to their natural, inhibited, shrunken state so that we can wake them up again and induce anagen phase for the long term.


 Hey Devon, great news, that things are progressing. Exciting times, either way of the outcome. At least this gives us a glimmer of hope. 

Regarding this being a stand-alone therapy. I can't see there being an issue using finesteride as it blocks DHT, which follicept isn't doing.

----------


## follicept

> Hey Devon, great news, that things are progressing. Exciting times, either way of the outcome. At least this gives us a glimmer of hope. 
> 
> Regarding this being a stand-alone therapy. I can't see there being an issue using finesteride as it blocks DHT, which follicept isn't doing.


 Thanks! It is indeed a different pathway/target, but like I said, we think it is a whole big process we are affecting. Assuming it works, we can't make any claims for people using combination therapies, because we have no idea how the interaction will affect it. We will be starting with treatment-naive people. Perhaps 6 months or so will be enough to clear out the system and be the same as treatment naive. Of course people are going to do what they want, but we can't be held responsible results outside the conditions we test...

----------


## grayfoxxx

> It's not a bad news at all, if they succeed to give the same effect of minox you can free yourself from lotions for the rest of your life, i image for people who travel a lot using minox and the pill everyday it's a nightmare


 Ok, but I'll have to wait to lose all the benefits of fin and minox before starting Follicept, if i understand correctly. It would takes months and my situation is already tragic despite the cures, I dare not even imagine how my situation could be without them. This thing really scares me.

----------


## Swooping

> You might used that as some kind a test for Devon, but other people are quoting that post as a proof that IGF-1 is bad for hair.
> 
> 
> On what evidence do you base that conclusion ?


 Well IGF-1 administration which goes systemic and thus circulates may be bad so these studies may have merit. But more so in the fact that IGF-1 systemic can indirectly lower your SHBG value and so it can increase your FAI (free androgen index) and subsequently lower your estrogen which is known to be hair follicle protective (as an example). 

AGA first upstream signals = Androgens > AR 

If you are asking me what evidence I have to argue that *circulating* IGF-1 itself *directly* can't influence AGA? That is as I mentioned from the fact that people  who suffer from Laron Syndrome (very low to none IGF-1 levels) & Acromegaly (very high IGF-1 levels).

If for instance high or low circulating levels IGF-1 would directly influence AGA we would have prove of that from these conditions. As you can read on Follicept their website they argue that a feedback loop consists through the FOXO1 receptor. But if this were to be true this would be likely apparent in people suffering from Acromegaly. Meaning that they wouldn't show AGA or would be immune to AGA. Yet this isn't true. In science observational evidence like this is extremely important. This is what led to the development of finasteride for example by Merck. 

Then again people with Laron Syndrome have pretty damn luxurious hair. It's hard for me to find a balding guy with Laron Syndrome. Ironic, as they have very low to zero circulating levels of IGF-1 due to a genetic defect. But then again they can develop AGA too.

Then again taken all this even that mice develop hair with full knockout of IGF-1 makes me think that it's not going to do much. Ironically it will probably perhaps shift your telogen/anagen ratio and be more beneficial for Telogen Effluvium for example. However these growth % increases ain't going to make anyone happy.

For AGA itself it isn't going to do much for anyone cosmetically, that's my opinion. Not only from the scientific level but also from a logical level considering with IGF-1 experiments in the past. Not something to be excited about, far from it actually. *Is it going to even come close to minoxidil? NO WAY*

But we'll see.

----------


## Illusion

> Regarding use of other therapies, and the question about shedding: this is intended to be a standalone therapy, and we have not tested other therapies with it. Given that minox and fin are after similar things, it is important to use Follicept on its own. Thus, users should either be treatment naive or "baseline" which means letting other treatments be washed out of your system, and yes, the dreaded shedding. I know this will cause a firestorm and ask that you refer to the document I will post later this week to understand why. The layman's/Devon version is that we need to let the follicles/DP go to their natural, inhibited, shrunken state so that we can wake them up again and induce anagen phase for the long term.


 Well this comes as quite a surprise. Dropping your whole regime in order to start a new treatment which is considered a cosmetic? Sounds pretty risky to me. This sets the bar a lot higher (in my eyes at least) because now it has to outperform finasteride COMBINED with minoxidil. Last time I heard something about follicept in combination with other treatments, only minoxidil had to be dropped and nothing was said about finasteride.

Anyway I'm curious to know why this is needed, but convincing people to do this does require outstanding results. You're basically saying "Choose Follicept over two proven hair loss treatments that work pretty decently in conjunction for the majority of people." 






> *I can't believe i made the right choice* waiting a month before treatments, i hope it works


 You didn't. Furthermore, you're probably going to have to wait at least a couple of months more (which would be an absolute best case scenario) before you can use this, so enjoy the wait while your follicles are dying.



EDIT: Also, Arashi hitting the nail on its head in the other thread about Follicept. I'm posting it here just for the sake of that thread, although the sake of that thread is already kind of ruined by Devon itself because - like Arashi said - he started a thread for results while they haven't even started their testing.

For some reason it indeed starts to seem more and more hype-ish to me. I'll try to stay neutral while waiting on the results though.

----------


## thejack

> Ok, but I'll have to wait to lose all the benefits of fin and minox before starting Follicept, if i understand correctly. It would takes months and my situation is already tragic despite the cures, I dare not even imagine how my situation could be without them. This thing really scares me.


 It only takes 2 weeks for finasteride to leave the system doesn't it?

----------


## Jagger

> Well this comes as quite a surprise. Dropping your whole regime in order to start a new treatment which is considered a cosmetic? Sounds pretty risky to me. This sets the bar a lot higher (in my eyes at least) because now it has to outperform finasteride COMBINED with minoxidil. Last time I heard something about follicept in combination with other treatments, only minoxidil had to be dropped and nothing was said about finasteride.
> 
> Anyway I'm curious to know why this is needed, but convincing people to do this does require outstanding results. You're basically saying "Choose Follicept over two proven hair loss treatments that work pretty decently in conjunction for the majority of people." 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't. Furthermore, you're probably going to have to wait at least a couple of months more (which would be an absolute best case scenario) before you can use this, so enjoy the wait while your follicles are dying.


 Quite curious indeed. The paper later this week should shed some light on it, but it is definitely a strange requirement. I imagine many people on this forum will probably go forward with fin+Follicept anyway (assuming it works well), perhaps this is just their current protocol given that they want to test the efficacy at baseline first. Unless Follicept has some effect on DHT I don't know why fin should be affected.

Then again I know pretty much nothing about this stuff.

----------


## follicept

> Well this comes as quite a surprise. Dropping your whole regime in order to start a new treatment which is considered a cosmetic? Sounds pretty risky to me. This sets the bar a lot higher (in my eyes at least) because now it has to outperform finasteride COMBINED with minoxidil. Last time I heard something about follicept in combination with other treatments, only minoxidil had to be dropped and nothing was said about finasteride.
> 
> Anyway I'm curious to know why this is needed, but convincing people to do this does require outstanding results. You're basically saying "Choose Follicept over two proven hair loss treatments that work pretty decently in conjunction for the majority of people." 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't. Furthermore, you're probably going to have to wait at least a couple of months more (which would be an absolute best case scenario) before you can use this, so enjoy the wait while your follicles are dying.
> ...


 Not saying what people HAVE to do, I am just trying to be incredibly upfront in our claims and our testing conditions. People will do what they will do, but given the complex nature of AGA, if there is some interaction such that, for example, fin blocks the way Follicept works (not saying this is the case- we have no clue), and people use both and then complain we have some crap product, that isn't fair to us, either (assuming it works). 

I just want to lay out there very clearly, here are our testing conditions and claims. 

If you want, go ahead and delete the other thread and I will restart on Monday. Was just doing it while I was thinking about it to lessen how much I have to set up on Monday. These things take time, a luxury I have little of lately. Trying to keep my own momentum going.

----------


## Keki

> You didn't. Furthermore, you're probably going to have to wait at least a couple of months more (which would be an absolute best case scenario) before you can use this, so enjoy the wait while your follicles are dying.


 few weeks of waiting being out of everything is better then full commit now and using fina and minox for sure, i don't even know if i'm a decent responder, if the results are positive i will be ready and in perfect shape to be a follicept responder, if negative i will take fina and minox at the end of may , no big deal, the bad call was waiting for treatments till now that i'm nw2.5-3

----------


## hellouser

> It only takes 2 weeks for finasteride to leave the system doesn't it?


 7-10 days. Typically around 7 days, which is why spencer kobren has more or less maintained at a dosage of once a week.

----------


## DanWS

> Well this comes as quite a surprise. Dropping your whole regime in order to start a new treatment which is considered a cosmetic? Sounds pretty risky to me. This sets the bar a lot higher (in my eyes at least) because now it has to outperform finasteride COMBINED with minoxidil. Last time I heard something about follicept in combination with other treatments, only minoxidil had to be dropped and nothing was said about finasteride.


 Yeah I agree, I'm pretty bummed to hear that using the treatment would mean having to drop fin, which I am reluctant to do. I wasn't expecting to hear that, and yes it does set the bar higher for Follicept now, no doubt. I would like to hear more regarding this from Follicept's part, as like Illusion mentioned, I'd only heard anything about dropping minox (which I don't use) for the treatment until just now.

----------


## Helix

> Well IGF-1 administration which goes systemic and thus circulates may be bad so these studies may have merit. But more so in the fact that IGF-1 systemic can indirectly lower your SHBG value and so it can increase your FAI (free androgen index) and subsequently lower your estrogen which is known to be hair follicle protective (as an example). 
> 
> AGA first upstream signals = Androgens > AR 
> 
> If you are asking me what evidence I have to argue that *circulating* IGF-1 itself *directly* can't influence AGA? That is as I mentioned from the fact that people  who suffer from Laron Syndrome (very low to none IGF-1 levels) & Acromegaly (very high IGF-1 levels).
> 
> .


 No, I am asking what evidence do you have that only IGF-1 produced from within the DP in the micro environment of the hair follicle may have an effect ? Do you base that simply on the fact that people with high circulating IGF-1 levels also lose hair ?

----------


## follicept

> Yeah I agree, I'm pretty bummed to hear that using the treatment would mean having to drop fin, which I am reluctant to do. I wasn't expecting to hear that, and yes it does set the bar higher for Follicept now, no doubt. I would like to hear more regarding this from Follicept's part, as like Illusion mentioned, I'd only heard anything about dropping minox (which I don't use) for the treatment until just now.


 See above responses, has to do with what we can claim and is based on a conversation I had this morning with Dr. Hsu, so it is news to me as well. Ideally this works better than either, but I agree the standard is higher. We shall see soon enough! 

Timeline- start on a few people next week, see results over the coming weeks. Assuming positive results, start full clinical trial around June 1. Indiegogo around the same time.

----------


## Swooping

> No, I am asking what evidence do you have that only IGF-1 produced from within the DP in the micro environment of the hair follicle may have an effect ? Do you base that simply on the fact that people with high circulating IGF-1 levels also lose hair ?


 I base that from two things as I said people with these genetic defects. Plus the fact that nothing upstream before Androgens > AR happens. Things which can indirectly alter androgens, for instance circulating IGF-1 or for that fact metabolic syndrome or insulin resistance can be bad yes in speeding up AGA. That's obvious. Loading yourself on a diet full of phyto estrogens like soy can slow your hair loss tremendously too. You'll even feminize.

So indeed circulating IGF-1 levels are not * directly* important to the pathology of AGA. The paracrine action mediated from within the dermal papilla can be of importance of hair follicle biology itself. You do know what this means right? Cells are little machines they can communicate with each other. So the DP may send out IGF-1 to neighboring cells for instance the keratinocytes. Something that circulating IGF-1 which is expressed in the blood can't achieve. The dermal papilla produce IGF-1 and release that.

I don't see it being important for the pathology of AGA though and definitely don't see it doing much at all in relation to AGA. It might not even be important for the DP itself but only for the keratonicytes. If you don't agree then please state with what not and your argumentation. And if you don't understand, then be more specific and I'll simplify it even more.

----------


## Illusion

> Timeline- start on a few people next week, see results over the coming weeks. *Assuming positive results, start full clinical trial around June 1*. Indiegogo around the same time.


 See Keki, this is what I mean. The full clinical trials won't start until June 1 if everything goes right and who knows how long those trials will take. You won't be using follicept for another few months and I think this can easily turn into a half year, if not longer.

But if you really want to wait, your call. Just remember that a lot of people have already told you to start with current treatments, not without reason

----------


## Keki

No no i know you are right, maybe i should start using fina at 0.25 at least, anyway it will be interesting to know exactly why a dht blocker isn't necessary at all according to them

----------


## follicept

> See Keki, this is what I mean. The full clinical trials won't start until June 1 if everything goes right and who knows how long those trials will take. You won't be using follicept for another few months and I think this can easily turn into a half year, if not longer.
> 
> But if you really want to wait, your call. Just remember that a lot of people have already told you to start with current treatments, not without reason


 We expect to see positive results in a few weeks. So if its overwhelmingly good in our small sample in town, we may run indiegogo concurrent with the trials, updating along the way, with a batch available potentially this summer, as we always said. Of course, completely your call! Don't blame you for not waiting, since we still have to prove it...

----------


## serenemoon

> Quite curious indeed. The paper later this week should shed some light on it, but it is definitely a strange requirement. I imagine many people on this forum will probably go forward with fin+Follicept anyway (assuming it works well), perhaps this is just their current protocol given that they want to test the efficacy at baseline first. Unless Follicept has some effect on DHT I don't know why fin should be affected.
> 
> Then again I know pretty much nothing about this stuff.


 I agree, I think most people will continue to use Fin. I think the place that Folliept is coming from is the fact that they don't know how fin and follicept will interact. (According to what Devon said in a recent post.) Stopping minoxidil in order to get the hair back to the shrunken state makes more sense to me, (and I personally don't see how fin and follicept could interact, if anything there may be an additive or synergestic effect here but of course that is just a guess) but then again, I see where Follicept is coming from. They are going based on proof and hard scientific evidence, and right now their evidence will only be from treatment naive patients.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> Timeline- start on a few people next week, see results over the coming weeks. Assuming positive results, start full clinical trial around June 1. Indiegogo around the same time.


 For US and Europe? I can't wait. If it works, trust me, i will take my 5 weeks of hollidays in Florida if we can't have it in Europe.

----------


## follicept

> I agree, I think most people will continue to use Fin. I think the place that Folliept is coming from is the fact that they don't know how fin and follicept will interact. (According to what Devon said in a recent post.) Stopping minoxidil in order to get the hair back to the shrunken state makes more sense to me, (and I personally don't see how fin and follicept could interact, if anything there may be an additive or synergestic effect here but of course that is just a guess) but then again, I see where Follicept is coming from. They are going based on proof and hard scientific evidence, and right now their evidence will only be from treatment naive patients.


 Correct!! We just can't claim anything other than what we test. What people do is up to them, but we can't be responsible for those results. Though both from a mechanism of action and a possible interaction standpoint, I really think it could be dangerous to continue minoxidil. Not sure about fin, but we aren't testing yet- maybe once we have more funding.

----------


## follicept

> For US and Europe? I can't wait. If it works, trust me, i will take my 5 weeks of hollidays in Florida if we can't have it in Europe.


 Hopefully to Europe, still working that out. You are welcome to visit us any time!

----------


## Helix

> I base that from two things as I said people with these genetic defects. Plus the fact that nothing upstream before Androgens > AR happens. Things which can indirectly alter androgens, for instance circulating IGF-1 or for that fact metabolic syndrome or insulin resistance can be bad yes in speeding up AGA. That's obvious. Loading yourself on a diet full of phyto estrogens like soy can slow your hair loss tremendously too. You'll even feminize.
> 
> So indeed circulating IGF-1 levels are not * directly* important to the pathology of AGA. The paracrine action mediated from within the dermal papilla can be of importance of hair follicle biology itself. You do know what this means right? Cells are little machines they can communicate with each other. So the DP may send out IGF-1 to neighboring cells for instance the keratinocytes. Something that circulating IGF-1 which is expressed in the blood can't achieve. The dermal papilla produce IGF-1 and release that.
> 
> I don't see it being important for the pathology of AGA though and definitely don't see it doing much at all in relation to AGA. It might not even be important for the DP itself but only for the keratonicytes. If you don't agree then please state with what not and your argumentation. And if you don't understand, then be more specific and I'll simplify it even more.


 Please don't patronize me. I don't need you to simplify anything for me. Circulating IGF-1 is not simply "bound to the blood", there are binding proteins that modulate the biological actions of IGFs in target tissues. You do know what this means right ?

Also, your conclusions based on acromegaly are beyond speculation.

----------


## stayhopeful

> See Keki, this is what I mean. The full clinical trials won't start until June 1 if everything goes right and who knows how long those trials will take. You won't be using follicept for another few months and I think this can easily turn into a half year, if not longer.
> 
> But if you really want to wait, your call. Just remember that a lot of people have already told you to start with current treatments, not without reason


 he said IndieGOGO around June 1st.... that means sending samples out to us right???

----------


## FrenchNewbie

> I base that from two things as I said people with these genetic defects. Plus the fact that nothing upstream before Androgens > AR happens. Things which can indirectly alter androgens, for instance circulating IGF-1 or for that fact metabolic syndrome or insulin resistance can be bad yes in speeding up AGA. That's obvious. Loading yourself on a diet full of phyto estrogens like soy can slow your hair loss tremendously too. You'll even feminize.
> 
> So indeed circulating IGF-1 levels are not * directly* important to the pathology of AGA. The paracrine action mediated from within the dermal papilla can be of importance of hair follicle biology itself. You do know what this means right? Cells are little machines they can communicate with each other. So the DP may send out IGF-1 to neighboring cells for instance the keratinocytes. Something that circulating IGF-1 which is expressed in the blood can't achieve. The dermal papilla produce IGF-1 and release that.
> 
> I don't see it being important for the pathology of AGA though and definitely don't see it doing much at all in relation to AGA. It might not even be important for the DP itself but only for the keratonicytes. If you don't agree then please state with what not and your argumentation. And if you don't understand, then be more specific and I'll simplify it even more.


 What is your degree? Please tell me. If you are PhD graduated, what is your name? Where are your scientific publications?

Thank you  :Smile:

----------


## Swooping

> Please don't patronize me. I don't need you to simplify anything for me. Circulating IGF-1 is not simply "bound to the blood", there are binding proteins that modulate the biological actions of IGFs in target tissues. You do know what this means right ?
> 
> Also, your conclusions based on acromegaly are beyond speculation.


 Well you ask the same question 3 times what do you want me to do? 

How is it speculation? Perhaps you'll go argue that the fact that pseudohermaphrodites or AIS people don't display androgenetic alopecia is speculation or not important? I'ts totally relevant to extrapolate data of such genetic diseases to AGA. In fact we have done this and discoveries are often made through this way. 

People with Acrogemaly can display AGA, don't they? Then how can the FOXO1 hypothesis occur? Please explain, I'm interested in what you have to say. 

You say that I speculate but don't give argumentation of anything at all. Aside from pointing me on carrier proteins (IGFPB family).

----------


## follicept

> he said IndieGOGO around June 1st.... that means sending samples out to us right???


 Yes. Exact timeline/production tbd, but in a WORST case, it would be a few weeks from the conclusion of the indiegogo, the duration of which is also tbd. But launching indiegogo means "We are 100% confident this works, and samples will be to you within weeks." Again, proceeds would be used to scale up to full production and launch.

----------


## Illusion

> We expect to see positive results in a few weeks. So if its overwhelmingly good in our small sample in town, we may run indiegogo concurrent with the trials, updating along the way, with a batch available potentially this summer, as we always said.


 


> he said IndieGOGO around June 1st.... that means sending samples out to us right???


 
Yeah, what I meant was that it could take a while before this will be sold over-the-counter. But indeed, those samples could reach us earlier.

----------


## Helix

> Well you ask the same question 3 times what do you want me to do? 
> 
> How is it speculation? Perhaps you'll go argue that the fact that pseudohermaphrodites or AIS people don't display androgenetic alopecia is speculation or not important? I'ts totally relevant to extrapolate data of such genetic diseases to AGA. In fact we have done this and discoveries are often made through this way. 
> 
> People with Acrogemaly can display AGA, don't they? Then how can the FOXO1 hypothesis occur? Please explain, I'm interested in what you have to say. 
> 
> You say that I speculate but don't give argumentation of anything at all. Aside from pointing me on carrier proteins (IGFPB family). Anyone on wikipedia can read about that lol.


 I was asking you the same question because I expected a reference not your personal observation.

You can't predict what effect will IGF-1 have on tissue level based on conditions with high circulating IGF-1. That is a speculation. You just don't know.

I have no idea what FOXO1 hypothesis is. I am not giving argumentation because I am not a molecular biologist and I am not pretending to be one. I'm just pointing to a logical fallacy that you committed.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

BS to this working. It's snakeoil until it's proven to be better than minoxidil. A guy pandering to a forum of desperate ppl, is likely to be full of crap. Just look at how many views this thread has gotten...based on what?

----------


## Swooping

> I was asking you the same question because I expected a reference not your personal observation.
> 
> You can't predict what effect will IGF-1 have on tissue level based on conditions with high circulating IGF-1. That is a speculation. You just don't know.
> 
> I have no idea what FOXO1 hypothesis is. I am not giving argumentation because I am not a molecular biologist and I am not pretending to be one. I'm just pointing to a logical fallacy that you committed.


 Oh I definitely didn't mean to imply that. Sorry English isn't my native language and I mostly type from a mobile phone. You are correct about that. Local secretion may be way different than circulating levels. In fact local secretion may have way different action on the hair follicle than circulating levels. And that's most likely the point anyway.

Then again given everything I really see no chance of this working. But I'll say it again, we'll see!

----------


## Helix

> Oh I definitely didn't mean to imply that. Sorry English isn't my native language and I mostly type from a mobile phone. You are correct about that. Local secretion may be way different than circulating levels. In fact local secretion may have way different action on the hair follicle than circulating levels. And that's most likely the point anyway as studies show this.
> 
> Then again given everything I really see no chance of this working. But I'll say it again, we'll see!


 Well, me neither (but I sure hope it will). Anyway, I'm glad we finally agree.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Hi Devon, very pragmatic questions here. Please explain us your strategy about price. I understood that this product can work with 3 applications by a week during 1 month. Then, it can works for one year. So, if i compare with the price in euro of Rogaine 5% (in France), it's 70 euros for 4 months (general price). So, for a year we have a price of 210 euros.

In US, i found on Amazon.com a price of 40 dollars for 3 months. So 160 dollars a year. 1 euro=1,07 dollar (same thing).

What will be your strategy if it works? I understood that it will not be 50 dollars. So 100 dollars? 150 dollars? 200 dollars? 250 dollars? Or more? 

My point of view: the better price is 150 dollars for one year. Europeans will be very happy, cause our price is 210 euros for Rogaine. And US users will be happy too, cause the price is 160 dollars for them. 

I think it could be interessant to create a subscription to an offer of 2, 3 or 4 years. So the price could be cheaper by bottle. For exemple: I take a suscribtion of 3 bottle for 3 years, i have to pay 350 dollars (instead of 450 dollars, if one bottle cost 150 dollars). So, i have a price of 116 dollars by year. And each year Follicept send a new bottle. With this method you can increase you revenu generated for the first year. With that money you can better finance the developpement of Follicept (and others). 

I know that you will have to adjust your strategy and you can't say more. But if it works, some people need to be prepared for the first of june (i'm thinking about young without big budgets for exemple). So we need indications. 

Second question: Will you permit multiple buying via Indiegogo (at normal price)? If Follicept works i think that you will have a big buzz all over the world (you can't imagine). So, I will prefere to buy 2 or 3 packs to be sure i have it for a long term. And i could buy one more for my brother who start with allopecia but doesn't wan't to treat it. 

Third question: Do you know the expiration of this product? Will it works 2 months, 6 months, 2 or 3 years after buying it (if the bottle is sealed)? 

Fourth question: If it really works, do you need our help? I think i'm not the only person who want graciously help you here. I have some skills in website developpement and design. I can create your french and spanish version of the website, or just give you the translations texts in the best french or spanish. I can create you a forum like this (with a better design  :Wink:  ), to give the possibility to buyers to share their photos and ask questions to create a real "Follicept community" (without troll that we have here  :Wink:  ).  And I think some members here, could be moderators with smile (and a lot of hair... i hope). I know some journalists in France too. I graciously offer my help. 

Excuse my english dear Deavon. I'm so frustrated, i can't explain my ideas like i want. And i can't say clearly my gratefulness. You take a lot of time to explain. And now, you will give your hairs and your head to the science. I saw all your campaign for diabetes. You are human and very courageous Devon. And i know that it's nothing in comparison with your work everyday. So man, even if it doesn't work: THANK YOU! And THANK YOU to Dr. HSU to try!

----------


## baldie42

> It only takes 2 weeks for finasteride to leave the system doesn't it?


 Wrong.I no longer take propecia after using for several years.If your on propecia stay on it.It will take along time for your hormones to get back to normal. - I will not go into full details it will scar the sh*t out of you.Take a look at propeciahelp - I'm at the back end of it now after 12 months hopefully.
I had no side effects while using propecia.
I stopped because I'm getting older and have learned to accept going bald a little easier.quite a lot of men my age are showing hairloss or bald.I accept it easier because I shave my hair off,as this looks better than a balding look.I wouldn't mind a full hair shadow -I keep hoping.

Good luck Follicept

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Finasteride will leave the system in two or three weeks. The probleme is not here. Finasteride change the hormone balance in your body. It touch your male hormone (which is one of the most important for a man). So it will take a lot of time (maybe 2 or 5 years) to get back to normal. I read a lot of persons who took this sh*t. A lot have side effects that no stop after stopping Fin. So, with Follicept, some people need to be cautious.

----------


## thejack

> Finasteride will leave the system in two or three weeks. The probleme is not here. Finasteride change the hormone balance in your body. It touch your male hormone (which is one of the most important for a man). So it will take a lot of time (maybe 2 or 5 years) to get back to normal. I read a lot of persons who took this sh*t. A lot have side effects that no stop after stopping Fin. So, with Follicept, some people need to be cautious.


 This is what I am concerned about, I have been taking it for 7 years now. I have had no side effects though and have been through at least 3 weeks of no finasteride due to travelling and had no change in my body; I will probably just continue and use follicept simultaneously if it is successful.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

@Thejack It's your case bro'. I'm happy for you but all cases are different with hormons.

----------


## Illusion

Regarding the whole 'dropping everything and getting on follicept' thing, I feel that you guys should also compare follicept to finasteride (and maybe a finasteride + minoxidil combination as well). I have read about trialling follicept along with minoxidil to compare the results, but if you guys are going to claim that it's a stand alone treatment then you guys should compare it to finasteride as well. So that would mean trialling follicept along with minoxidil and finasteride.

But I guess you guys at Promotheon have already thought about that?

----------


## GSD

@frenchnewbie

maybe you talk about 0,01 % people who got permanent or long term side effects . please dont speak about a drug which you never tried.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Regarding the whole 'dropping everything and getting on follicept' thing, I feel that you guys should also compare follicept to finasteride (and maybe a finasteride + minoxidil combination as well). I have read about trialling follicept along with minoxidil to compare the results, but if you guys are going to claim that it's a stand alone treatment then you guys should compare it to finasteride as well. So that would mean trialling follicept along with minoxidil and finasteride.
> 
> But I guess you guys at Promotheon have already thought about that?


 I understand how minox (a topical) could get caught up in follicepts vehicle, thus delivering too much minox and giving you a heart attack.

But I don't understand why one would have to stop oral fin while on follicept. It's not like oral fin is going to get caught in follicepts vehicle and deliver too much.....

I think devon mean that trialists shouldn't be on either med--- for the purpose of evaluating follicept. Not so much that you can't stay on fin and use follicept. But you should be weary for sure of any topical (e.g. minox or topical fin)

----------


## follicept

> Regarding the whole 'dropping everything and getting on follicept' thing, I feel that you guys should also compare follicept to finasteride (and maybe a finasteride + minoxidil combination as well). I have read about trialling follicept along with minoxidil to compare the results, but if you guys are going to claim that it's a stand alone treatment then you guys should compare it to finasteride as well. So that would mean trialling follicept along with minoxidil and finasteride.
> 
> But I guess you guys at Promotheon have already thought about that?


 We have and we will, once funding allows. First, we will just test the efficacy of Follicept  in treatment-naive patients.

----------


## follicept

> Hi Devon, very pragmatic questions here. Please explain us your strategy about price. I understood that this product can work with 3 applications by a week during 1 month. Then, it can works for one year. So, if i compare with the price in euro of Rogaine 5% (in France), it's 70 euros for 4 months (general price). So, for a year we have a price of 210 euros.
> 
> In US, i found on Amazon.com a price of 40 dollars for 3 months. So 160 dollars a year. 1 euro=1,07 dollar (same thing).
> 
> What will be your strategy if it works? I understood that it will not be 50 dollars. So 100 dollars? 150 dollars? 200 dollars? 250 dollars? Or more? 
> 
> My point of view: the better price is 150 dollars for one year. Europeans will be very happy, cause our price is 210 euros for Rogaine. And US users will be happy too, cause the price is 160 dollars for them. 
> 
> I think it could be interessant to create a subscription to an offer of 2, 3 or 4 years. So the price could be cheaper by bottle. For exemple: I take a suscribtion of 3 bottle for 3 years, i have to pay 350 dollars (instead of 450 dollars, if one bottle cost 150 dollars). So, i have a price of 116 dollars by year. And each year Follicept send a new bottle. With this method you can increase you revenu generated for the first year. With that money you can better finance the developpement of Follicept (and others). 
> ...


 All of this is to be determined, but we are thinking along the same lines. We will test expiration but it is very stable at room temperature, and especially in the freezer. 

Thanks so much for the offer to help, we will reach out if/when we need it! Don't call us heroes yet, we are just trying something new.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

@GSD I speak about it because I have a friend who had a lot of side effects during and after taking it during 5 years. He took 25 kilos. He was depressive during 5 years and now he take Seroplex 20mg since 7 years (he told me it's a big dose). He wanted many times suicide himself. He lost his libido and he divorced (for a lot of things, but Fin was the trigger). He lost a lot of his friends. And you want to know the best? He has now no hair on the top of his head. And now he has so much problems that hair is not a priority at all for him. 

It's the reason why I don't want take Fin and I will never take it. 

I know that a lot of persons don't have any problem with Fin. But i don't think it's 99,99% of the people who take it. I have no statistics but by viewing forums i can imagine 50% have side effects with Fin and 20% are serious, 5% are very serious. Even if it was 1%, the risk is too big. Trust me, you don't want to live what he lives.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

> Regarding the whole 'dropping everything and getting on follicept' thing, I feel that you guys should also compare follicept to finasteride (and maybe a finasteride + minoxidil combination as well). I have read about trialling follicept along with minoxidil to compare the results, but if you guys are going to claim that it's a stand alone treatment then you guys should compare it to finasteride as well. So that would mean trialling follicept along with minoxidil and finasteride.
> 
> But I guess you guys at Promotheon have already thought about that?


 

Things are very early in the development phase. I don't think there is any reason why follicept and finasteride would affect each other, so my guess is that it's just a precaution until they test how they interact.

I'm happy if follicept is superior to minoxidil, because that's the only thing I'm using right now and I don't think it has helped me at all.  :Smile:

----------


## FrenchNewbie

@TheUltimatePoet I read a person who spoke about IGF-1 on an english forum. He has explain that it can work only if all parameters are in a normal balance. I understood that Finasterid inhibate 5AR2 (not DHT). So Follicept could not work if you take it or have some side effects like hairs on all your body or something like that. I'm not a scientist, i just give you what some people think.

----------


## Hemo

> Regarding the whole 'dropping everything and getting on follicept' thing, I feel that you guys should also compare follicept to finasteride (and maybe a finasteride + minoxidil combination as well). I have read about trialling follicept along with minoxidil to compare the results, but if you guys are going to claim that it's a stand alone treatment then you guys should compare it to finasteride as well. So that would mean trialling follicept along with minoxidil and finasteride.
> 
> But I guess you guys at Promotheon have already thought about that?


 Pretty sure that this is the ultimate goal, but in order to get to market asap, the most straightforward way to test Follicept is as a standalone treatment.  That way, it's also clear that Follicept is what's causing any potential loss/improvement and not the additional treatment.  Fin and Minox would likely require more stringent approvals through the university since they aren't classified as a cosmetic, which would drag the testing process out further.

----------


## Jagger

> @TheUltimatePoet I read a person who spoke about IGF-1 on an english forum. He has explain that it can work only if all parameters are in a normal balance. I understood that Finasterid inhibate 5AR2 (not DHT). So Follicept could not work if you take it or have some side effects like hairs on all your body or something like that. I'm not a scientist, i just give you what some people think.


 Wouldn't that be something  :Big Grin:  we could probably come up with some really convincing Bigfoot fakes if we just covered someone in Follicept for a month.

----------


## Hemo

@follicept, will you be testing/using human derived IGF-1 if the e.coli derived version does not work?  Any reason to think they would behave differently?

----------


## gainspotter

He'll be back as soon as someone makes a hurtful comment or he realises how ridiculous a shaved head looks.

----------


## follicept

> @follicept, will you be testing/using human derived IGF-1 if the e.coli derived version does not work?  Any reason to think they would behave differently?


 Most recombinant technology uses e.coli. According to our PhD in medicinal chemistry/post doc in pharmacodynamics, they are identical, no reason they would behave differently.

----------


## Swooping

> Most recombinant technology uses e.coli. According to our PhD in medicinal chemistry/post doc in pharmacodynamics, they are identical, no reason they would behave differently.


 Well your PhD is most likely wrong then? I'll check this up with Sigma Aaldrich/Peprotech and on NCBI. I'm on my mobile phone but it would be strange that no differences would be present. Then again I didn't read too much about this so don't quote me 100% on this. Nonetheless it probably won't be even feasible economically for you guys to use IGF-1 solely from human source from a product sell point.




> Human cell expressed recombinant proteins	
> Proteins, especially therapeutic proteins were initially extracted from human and animal tissues or blood. However, limitations in availability of the biological material, and the potential pathogen contaminations, led to the development of recombinant proteins traditionally produced in mammalian cells, insect cells, bacteria and yeast. Although this approach is very beneficial in terms of enhanced safety, lower immunogenicity, increased half-life and improved bioavailability, it is still hampered by the fact that these cells just do not have the machinery to produce authentic human proteins. Only a human cell can provide the micro-environment required to produce native human proteins. The human cell factory gives access to the umpteen components like the enzymes, proteases, cellular organelles, and chaperone proteins necessary to properly process, modify, and fold the translated protein into the mature protein capable of carrying out its biological function in the context of the human system. Additionally a non-human expression system can have important glycosylation differences that can significantly affect protein activity, function, and half-life and non-human glycosylation (like that carried out in the CHO expression system) can also cause immunogenicity problems.


 


> In a nutshell, the virtues of these proteins are:
> They contain all the post-translational modifications (which affects the activity, function and half-life) seen in human proteins.
> •	They mimic native human proteins in terms of sub-unit assembly, folding, secretion and other processes.
> •	They show the same chemical & biological properties like stability, isoelectric point, solubility, binding affinities and biological activity.
> •	They are produced in serum free medium; hence they exhibit minimal batch to batch variability and are pathogen free products.

----------


## follicept

> Well your PhD is most likely wrong then? I'll check this up with Sigma Aaldrich/Peprotech and on NCBI. I'm on my mobile phone but it would be strange that no differences would be present. Then again I didn't read too much about this so don't quote me 100% on this. Nonetheless it probably won't be even feasible economically for you guys to use IGF-1 solely from human source from a product sell point.


 You cannot mimic the in vivo macro environment 100% in vitro, even for human recombinant IGF-1. Our animal tests were done with e.coli based, and so we did not switch to yeast or human based sources for consistency, cost, and enough similarity that we are confident it will work.

----------


## serenemoon

> You cannot mimic the in vivo macro environment 100% in vitro, even for human recombinant IGF-1. Our animal tests were done with e.coli based, and so we did not switch to yeast or human based sources for consistency, cost, and enough similarity that we are confident it will work.


 +1.

----------


## Jagger

What kind of ingredients are you waiting on, Devon, out of curiosity? Or is that classified?

----------


## Swooping

> You cannot mimic the in vivo macro environment 100% in vitro, even for human recombinant IGF-1. Our animal tests were done with e.coli based, and so we did not switch to yeast or human based sources for consistency, cost, and enough similarity that we are confident it will work.


 I understand why you chose for e.coli, because of your initial findings. Also, I understand it's not feasible to go from a other source. However I quote; 




> According to our PhD in medicinal chemistry/post doc in pharmacodynamics, they are identical, no reason they would behave differently.


 So that statement is incorrect from your "PhD". They may surely behave differently. In fact human source can be better and that possibility is highly plausible. From a quick glance on NCBI it seems like it too.  Anyway good luck with your trial.

----------


## Keki

I read the aape thread with human igf-1, i wonder how they made it, dead body? Tons of blood? if so can it be dangerous? It's hard to believe they made enough of this stuff to the point they can sell it worldwide with no issue, anyway i don't think we can tell human recumbinat is trash and the human one is much better, 99% of the biotech industry use ecoli for a reason, it works the same, and i actually found a study here it say in some disease e.coli is better for safety reason, if it doesn't work with e.coli it will never work with human one anyway

----------


## follicept

> What kind of ingredients are you waiting on, Devon, out of curiosity? Or is that classified?


 Classified but the wonderful UPS guy brought them today! Working all weekend to make the batch for Monday.

----------


## gladiator

> I understand why you chose for e.coli, because of your initial findings. Also, I understand it's not feasible to go from a other source. However I quote; 
> 
> 
> 
> So that statement is incorrect from your "PhD". They may surely behave differently. In fact human source can be better and that possibility is highly plausible. From a quick glance on NCBI it seems like it too.  Anyway good luck with your trial.


 Blah , blah , blah ,blah , blah is all you guys do all day . 
This guy ( follicept ) is actually doing something , while the rest of you impatient people can't let him work and ****ing wait, instead you sit on a  hairless forum and speculate on this and that and this and that while real people are out there getting the job done, , it's not that long , just let him do his shit then worry about it when it's happening , hairloss might be a problem but it sure seems anxiety is levels above , 
If this bloke grows hair it will be evident and people will jump on board  end of story . If I sold hammers I would target tradespeople over regular people as there opinions are based on experiences , is more than likely why he has ground zero as a Internet hairloss  forum as you lot are so scrutinising and your expectations are so ****ing high , if he make s if he gets your approval the majority of balding people will be more than stoked!

----------


## tiktok

We all need to agree the guys posts are counter-productive (and just plain wrong a lot of the time) and ignore him.

----------


## Swooping

> I read the aape thread with human igf-1, i wonder how they made it, dead body? Tons of blood? if so can it be dangerous? It's hard to believe they made enough of this stuff to the point they can sell it worldwide with no issue, anyway i don't think we can tell human recumbinat is trash and the human one is much better, 99% of the biotech industry use ecoli for a reason, it works the same, and i actually found a study here it say in some disease e.coli is better for safety reason, if it doesn't work with e.coli it will never work with human one anyway


 AAPE is made through lipoaspiration to answer your question. The human adicopytes which are extracted contain stem cells. This is cultured and subsequently the proteins are extracted to explain it in a simple manner. I personally wouldn't call these products dangerous. 

Although if you would induce high dosages with a high frequency of application then yes it can be dangerous, primarily oncogene transformation (cancer). For example becaplermin (brand name regranex) is human recombinant PDGF for foot ulcers. It has a block box warning and an increased mortality from cancer has been shown. However the concentration in this product is 0.01% = 100ug = 100 microgram/g. That is pretty insane, and a serious treatment/medication. This is on a whole different level though.

I guess there is a reason why regulatory institutions allow products like AAPE (FDA approved) and follicept can use IGF-1 too at low dosages.

----------


## serenemoon

> classified but the wonderful ups guy brought them today! Working all weekend to make the batch for monday.


 +1 :d

----------


## Hairismylife

> Classified but the wonderful UPS guy brought them today! Working all weekend to make the batch for Monday.


 Looking forward to your good news!

----------


## BoSox

What are the chances of this regrowing hairline?

----------


## nameless

> I understand why you chose for e.coli, because of your initial findings. Also, I understand it's not feasible to go from a other source. However I quote; 
> 
> 
> 
> So that statement is incorrect from your "PhD". They may surely behave differently. In fact human source can be better and that possibility is highly plausible. From a quick glance on NCBI it seems like it too.  Anyway good luck with your trial.


 I also think they should use human derived IGF-1

----------


## nameless

> I understand why you chose for e.coli, because of your initial findings. Also, I understand it's not feasible to go from a other source. However I quote; 
> 
> 
> 
> So that statement is incorrect from your "PhD". They may surely behave differently. In fact human source can be better and that possibility is highly plausible. From a quick glance on NCBI it seems like it too.  Anyway good luck with your trial.


 
I agree. It seems to me that the active ingredient is the last place you would be willing to cut a corner.

----------


## serenemoon

> I agree. It seems to me that the active ingredient is the last place you would be willing to cut a corner.


 That would be extremely hard to come by (and probably extremely expensive.) I am positive that IGF-1 from e.coli will work just as well. We will see though.

----------


## noisette

Hello Devon, I hope you are fine  :Smile: 
I wonder if we could have a doc that could explain your theory and the mechanism of IGF1 through your vehicule called Transdermal technology. Or perhaps, a video like this one but for Follicept would be great ! 
ps : www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBiOUNM9Nx4
cheers

----------


## breakbot

> What are the chances of this regrowing hairline?


 None.

----------


## Hairismylife

Hello Devon and everybody, just wanna share my feelings with you guys…I am getting depressed by hairloss.
Just now I have had my haircut, anybody who are like me that resists to go to haircut? That 30 mins haircut is like a year length, I feel like standing nakedly on the street.  I can't stop myself to think "omg…who is looking at my bald spot?" because no toppik during haircut.  It was really torturing my soul.  And worse is thay everytime I can see my hair is less than previous haircut.  When hair is short you can see it.  Just now I nearly want to cry.  I lost my appetite when dinner,  I lost my interest tonight.  This disease is really a soul cancer which worth more concern.  Words cant convey my misery.  I need a better treatment right now and I wish Devon or other researcher can understand what our baldies feel and save us.

----------


## cr1mson

> Hello Devon and everybody, just wanna share my feelings with you guysI am getting depressed by hairloss.
> Just now I have had my haircut, anybody who are like me that resists to go to haircut? That 30 mins haircut is like a year length, I feel like standing nakedly on the street.  I can't stop myself to think "omgwho is looking at my bald spot?" because no toppik during haircut.  It was really torturing my soul.  And worse is thay everytime I can see my hair is less than previous haircut.  When hair is short you can see it.  Just now I nearly want to cry.  I lost my appetite when dinner,  I lost my interest tonight.  This disease is really a soul cancer which worth more concern.  Words cant convey my misery.  I need a better treatment right now and I wish Devon or other researcher can understand what our baldies feel and save us.


 Hang in there bud. Devon is balding, as we all are. Here's hoping that this treatment works! If its just a bald spot your worrying about, have you considered a transplant? I wish my only problem was only a bald spot, diffuse thinning is much harder to deal with.

----------


## BoSox

> Hang in there bud. Devon is balding, as we all are. Here's hoping that this treatment works! If its just a bald spot your worrying about, have you considered a transplant? I wish my only problem was only a bald spot, diffuse thinning is much harder to deal with.


 I agree. Diffuse thinning is horrible. My friend has one little bald spot on the back of his head, perfect hairline and density. I wish I had that, the hair line is so important. If this stuff can't regrow hair, but at least fix the thinning hair I'd be ecstatic! Please work, pleaaaaaaaase  :Smile:

----------


## Hairismylife

> Hang in there bud. Devon is balding, as we all are. Here's hoping that this treatment works! If its just a bald spot your worrying about, have you considered a transplant? I wish my only problem was only a bald spot, diffuse thinning is much harder to deal with.


 I also have diffuse thinning but Toppik can fix it.  
For my crown bald spot I have to use two mirrors and spray the toppik with absolute care to avoid looking weird becaue toppik isnt supposed to be used on slick scalp.
I now hide myself in my room.  I dont wanna work tomorrow and meet any ppl.
Why the God gave me life but take away my hair? Why?

----------


## amoksha

@follicept - I strongly encourage Devon to get a "buzz-cut".  The growth of vellus and terminal hairs is best visible in a buzz cut. 

Camera, proper lighting, tatoo mark and trichoscan will obviously be great additions. 

I'm sure that myself and many other forum users won't hesitate to buy Follicept even if they conducted "one properly" planned trial on Devon that wins our confidence. 

If IGF-1 really works, the results will be best visible in a buzz cut. Otherwise, the long hair can be combed over to fake results. We have seen this again and again with snake oil doctors.

Guys, I have strong confidence in Follicept's IGF-1 science, but I have 'significant doubts' about Follicept being honest moving forward. They have done a "U-turn" on many things.  Some part of me tells me they are trying to pull a fast one and play with the vulnerable feelings of emotional hair loss sufferers.

The following are the red flags:

1) All of a sudden we hear that Devon is not getting a buzz cut in the trial

2) Follicept is wanting to provide a pulse therapy and charge higher $$$$ from the first trial . The sudden  increase in price is weird and change of frequency is questionable

3) Originally, they told us they are seeking human derived IGF-1 like incerelex but now we find out that they are using e-coli derived.

We are placing confidence in Follicept and I hope my red flags are proven wrong. I want a cure for this as much as everyone else. 

Devon, we are not asking forum trials but for God's sake we demand a fair and proper one person trial before we buy the Indiegogo. 

Please buzz cut your hair, take proper pictures with lighting and let us know if this work or not work. 

If it does not work, we will still gracefully accept your honesty! 

All the best Devon! Looking forward to you in a buzz cut soon. Can't wait for the trials!

----------


## Arashi

> @follicept - I strongly encourage Devon to get a "buzz-cut".  The growth of vellus and terminal hairs is best visible in a buzz cut. 
> 
> Camera, proper lighting, tatoo mark and trichoscan will obviously be great additions. 
> 
> I'm sure that myself and many other forum users won't hesitate to buy Follicept even if they conducted "one properly" planned trial on Devon that wins our confidence. 
> 
> If IGF-1 really works, the results will be best visible in a buzz cut. Otherwise, the long hair can be combed over to fake results. We have seen this again and again with snake oil doctors.
> 
> Guys, I have strong confidence in Follicept's IGF-1 science, but I have 'significant doubts' about Follicept being honest moving forward. They have done a "U-turn" on many things.  Some part of me tells me they are trying to pull a fast one and play with the vulnerable feelings of emotional hair loss sufferers.
> ...


 Now wait for the follicept insult brigade, they can't be far.

----------


## Keki

> 3) Originally, they told us they are seeking human derived IGF-1 like incerelex but now we find out that they are using e-coli derived.


 rotfl, increlex is a rh-igf1 *facepalm*
and anyway every igf-1 serious experimental treatment is using e.coli, even if there are few patients they still are using rh so this is a confirm rh and human are for clinical use the same, chill

----------


## serenemoon

Devon, is the mouse that you guys used IGF-1 on still growing hair? Just curious.  :Smile:  Thanks!

----------


## DerekM228

> rotfl, increlex is a rh-igf1 *facepalm*
> and anyway every igf-1 serious experimental treatment is using e.coli, even if there are few patients they still are using rh so this is a confirm rh and human are for clinical use the same, chill


 Yup

INCRELEX® (mecasermin [rDNA origin] injection) contains human insulin-like growth factor-1 (rhIGF-1) produced by recombinant DNA technology. IGF-1 consists of 70 amino acids in a single chain with three intramolecular disulfide bridges and a molecular weight of 7649 daltons. The amino acid sequence of the product is identical to that of endogenous human IGF-1. *The rhIGF-1 protein is synthesized in bacteria (E. coli)* that have been modified by the addition of the gene for human IGF-1.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

> @follicept - I strongly encourage Devon to get a "buzz-cut".  The growth of vellus and terminal hairs is best visible in a buzz cut. 
> 
> Camera, proper lighting, tatoo mark and trichoscan will obviously be great additions. 
> 
> I'm sure that myself and many other forum users won't hesitate to buy Follicept even if they conducted "one properly" planned trial on Devon that wins our confidence. 
> 
> If IGF-1 really works, the results will be best visible in a buzz cut. Otherwise, the long hair can be combed over to fake results. We have seen this again and again with snake oil doctors.
> 
> Guys, I have strong confidence in Follicept's IGF-1 science, but I have 'significant doubts' about Follicept being honest moving forward. They have done a "U-turn" on many things.  Some part of me tells me they are trying to pull a fast one and play with the vulnerable feelings of emotional hair loss sufferers.
> ...


 This isn't necessarily due to dishonesty, but can simply be because we are still _very_ early in the process. Some adjustments are to be expected.

----------


## nameless

Yes some adjustments are expected. I agree.

It's understandable that Devon does not want a buzz cut but a very short cut is best for tallying the results. 

Also, I do think that using e.coli derived chemical versus human chemical could possibly make a big difference. We are talking about the active therapeutic ingredient of the treatment after all.

----------


## serenemoon

> This isn't necessarily due to dishonesty, but can simply be because we are still _very_ early in the process. Some adjustments are to be expected.


 That is really what I was thinking, We "see" their adjustments precisely because they are telling us everything. If they didn't, we wouldn't even know that adjustments are happening. We would just get an end product but we would have no idea what went into the actual process, what adjustments were made.

----------


## TheUltimatePoet

Exactly.

As for Devon getting a buzz-cut: I don't think he was the only one in this first test. There are others. Maybe some of them have buzz-cuts which will make it easier to see.

----------


## dus

Some adjustments that require more dollars upfront. Everything is going to plan. Oh hi guyz I have a possible couple billion dollar product here but I ain't getting a buzzcut to prove it... **** that shit.

----------


## schtif

> Some adjustments that require more dollars upfront. Everything is going to plan. Oh hi guyz I have a possible couple billion dollar product here but I ain't getting a buzzcut to prove it... **** that shit.


 I Agree. At first I was quite optimistic. But all those new accounts, "fighting" the sceptical people. Now the adjustment of the the price. First create a hpye, sell the product as expensiv as possible and then run. I am not sure, but it just seems to fit. Well, dosent matter anyhow, let's see how the "trial" goes. 

And - I know - my first post. I could be working for some big pharma company trying to stop this. Yeah, sure. If this is working as good as follicept claims, not even Darth Vader with an army of Death Stars could  stop them.

----------


## amoksha

Guys, honestly, I think Keki seems like a paid company rep. He is so blind it's not even funny. I'm neither for or against follicept. I'm in the middle and "cautiously optimistic" but this Keki guy is a shady character. He agrees to everything  and does not disagree to a single point. We have people like Serenemoon, Frenchnewbie and others who are new but they are cautiously optimistic and waiting for results.

People like Keki are fiercely marketeer type and scary. 

We all love Devon and follicept, I think he's doing a great service to research this cure, but parrots and people like Keki just ruin any efforts Devon or Follicept makes.

There's a 50/50   chance this might work or it might not work. In either case, it's a lesson learn.

Just don't listen or waste time arguing with Keki. His tone sounds very deceptive and folli-ceptic..

----------


## stayhopeful

> Guys, honestly, I think Keki seems like a paid company rep. He is so blind it's not even funny. I'm neither for or against follicept. I'm in the middle and "cautiously optimistic" but this Keki guy is a shady character. He agrees to everything  and does not disagree to a single point. We have people like Serenemoon, Frenchnewbie and others who are new but they are cautiously optimistic and waiting for results.
> 
> People like Keki are fiercely marketeer type and scary. 
> 
> We all love Devon and follicept, I think he's doing a great service to research this cure, but parrots and people like Keki just ruin any efforts Devon or Follicept makes.
> 
> There's a 50/50   chance this might work or it might not work. In either case, it's a lesson learn.
> 
> Just don't listen or waste time arguing with Keki. His tone sounds very deceptive and folli-ceptic..


 I understand your concern, however, your personal attacks are highly unwarranted.  To suggest that Devon and the Follicept members are on here using fake usernames is highly, highly insulting.  Someone engaging in such actions (creating fake usernames to advertise) would be someone with no dignity.  So by implication, you are suggesting that Devon and Dr. Hsu don't have dignity, which is highly insulting.  Your concerns are understood but careful with your accusations

----------


## amoksha

I'm not accusing anyone, I'm stating what many others are observing about Keki. Truth shall prevail.. 

Read my sentences carefully before jumping to the guns. I said he seems "like" a rep. If I said that he "is" that's different.

You are just extrapolating things . 

Well it's just a matter of 2 weeks. 

No arguments, just results ;-)

I'm hoping Keki is right and I hope Follicept is right. We all want a cure, but healthy skepticism is what keeps us and this forum alive.

I never mentioned Hsu and I never mentioned Devon. You're assuming that.

----------


## Kokles

> Guys, honestly, I think Keki seems like a paid company rep. He is so blind it's not even funny. I'm neither for or against follicept. I'm in the middle and "cautiously optimistic" but this Keki guy is a shady character. He agrees to everything  and does not disagree to a single point. We have people like Serenemoon, Frenchnewbie and others who are new but they are cautiously optimistic and waiting for results.
> 
> People like Keki are fiercely marketeer type and scary. 
> 
> We all love Devon and follicept, I think he's doing a great service to research this cure, but parrots and people like Keki just ruin any efforts Devon or Follicept makes.
> 
> There's a 50/50   chance this might work or it might not work. In either case, it's a lesson learn.
> 
> Just don't listen or waste time arguing with Keki. His tone sounds very deceptive and folli-ceptic..


 Seriously .... what's your IQ?

----------


## amoksha

> Seriously .... what's your IQ?


 My IQ is as much as the number of hair follicles on your head. Go figure! 

That's what you get for your insult and condescending attitude !

Truth shall prevail. 2 weeks! Just results, no arguments !!!

----------


## amoksha

Kokles and Keki sound awfully "similar" sounding . 

Arashi and Swooping were right. "Some" of the new users only come and post in the follicept forum and they don't post anywhere else. 

Winston should monitor these users. 

Also, sdurfin has a conflict of interest, he has an NDA with follicept , Devon admitted that.

Soo many conflict of interests of people on this forum.

I really don't care, honestly I want this treatment to work. If it works I'll join Follicept and become their fan. 

Just give us a treatment that will help us baldies live in peace.

----------


## Hemo

> My IQ is as much as the number of hair follicles on your head. Go figure! 
> 
> That's what you get for your insult and condescending attitude !
> 
> Truth shall prevail. 2 weeks! Just results, no arguments !!!


 Hi Arashi!!!  It's pretty clear this is you and I'm quoting this so people can compare the very distinct typing style that amoksha and Arashi have.  There is one peculiarity in particular that gives it away, which I can reveal later if others haven't picked up on it.

Can a mod look into the IP of both of these users?

----------


## stayhopeful

> Hi Arashi!!!  It's pretty clear this is you and I'm quoting this so people can compare the very distinct typing style that amoksha and Arashi have.  There is one peculiarity in particular that gives it away, which I can reveal later if others haven't picked up on it.
> 
> Can a mod look into the IP of both of these users?


  Hahahahaha I hope this is true... Would be funny but also a very serious sign of serious psychological issues

----------


## FrenchNewbie

I simply think that Follicept has done a small buzz all over the world. I found a lot of huge topics: France (where i come from), Germany, UK, Spain, Italy, Turkey, etc. I honestly think that those people who came here are the most optimistics of each forum (i came here after reading the french topic on Doctissimo and i was very optimistic, but i wait results... no results, no money). 

Please see the french topic, you will understand: http://forum.doctissimo.fr/sante/cal..._167836_51.htm

65 pages, we are 65 millions of french (frogs for our friends from UK  :Stick Out Tongue: ) .  :Wink:  People were very optimistic with the press release. Then with waiting, a lot of people changed their point of view. One day they are very optimistic. One day they are very pessimistic (some people are fragile psychologically with hair loss, you know what i mean...). And the translations of Devon answers are not well understood. I think that Devon is too kind with us. One answer by day (without responding to troll) is enough. More than that, we will speculate.

I sincerly think that Kokles and Keki are not the same person (a moderator can see that with IPs and confirm) cause they don't serve the interest of Follicept (it's too much, a firm which do flooding knows that you have to be reasonably optimistic to be credible). More, I think (but it's my personnal conviction by reading Devon and seeing all publications of Hsu and seeing their campains with diabetes) they are honnest. And i think they will prove it. If Follicept works we will have a proof. If it doesn't work, they will not sale it, and it will be a proof of honesty too. If they sale a product which don't work, we will have a proof that they were scammers (but i personnaly don't think that). 

For my part, i can give a proof of my french indentity to moderators. Or maybe take a photo with a message front of a french monument in my town. Then you can verify if it's the same monument by searching on Wikipedia. I'm not a fake. And I think, like me, Keki and Kokles are not fakes. They are just too optimistic like some of us when we heard this news.

Ps: For all, please stop invective. We have the same goal. If skeptical people are wrong, they will accept it. And if optimistic people are wrong, they will accept it. So we are waiting now. We will have some proof or not in a couple of weeks. So we have to be solidary and keep hope. We have not a lot of hair, but we could have hope. It costs nothing and personnaly hope gave me smile (i won that with the Follicept affaire).

----------


## sdsurfin

my god so much insanity on here.  Conflict of interest haha.  I have an NDA with follicept because I was curious about their idea and Dr. Hsu appreciated my ideas and insight when i talked to devon. he wanted to explain to me why they are pursuing this treatment without giving away everything about their company.  I have absolutely nothing to gain from follicept either way, I have no idea whether they will succeed or not, i just know its a solid idea based on solid science, pursued by some very smart biologists trained at the best universities in the USA, and that the team are reputable individuals that have nothing to gain from scamming anybody. 

everyone who has looked into who follicept is composed of and thinks otherwise is a) stupid b) still uninformed or 3) like arashi and swooping, people with too much time on their hands and feeding their sense of self importance by declaring themselves the defenders of the follically oppressed.  Arashi has proven to us time and time again on this forum that although he has a better ability for reading comprehension and logical deduction than someone like swooping, he has psychological issues that drive him to endlessly and obsessively sniff out conspiracies/theories whether they are there or not, and instead of doing something useful with his life, he is on these forums nonstop in some ridiculous quest to protect the gullible.  

Follicept will either work or it won't. simple as that. it will not be difficult to know either way, just as other treatments either obviously work or they do not.  If you look back at the charlatans who have scammed people, it was pretty obvious for anyone with half a brain that photos etc were not legit.  Don't trust follicept? let them do their trials, and if they seem shady then you can start whining and botching.  for now stop acting like spoiled babies and do something else with your lives while we wait.  no need for endless posts challenging follicept's methods.  just let them do their work and they will do their best to show you what they observe.  they have no duty to do this for you and if they have a good product, there are millions of normal balding guys that don't waste their time on here and will buy what they produce.  

There'a always a good chance that any hair treatment will not be great, because hair loss is an incredibly complex and ingrained genetic condition.  whether this avenue will work or not shall be seen, but what is evident via many many scientific publications is that growth factors indeed play a large role in hair growth and loss, and follicept are not the only company interested in these channels.  Replicel, histogen, SM, and many drugs that you have heard of all work by promoting or inhibiting certain factors and proteins, whether directly or indirectly, and there's every reason to think that follicept will affect hair growth in a positive way. Don't let armchair scientists crush your hopes with their limited understanding of science, and their half assed ability to google research documents and infer things that cannot really be inferred.  talking to dr hsu made me realize just how much is impossible for any layman to know, even with access to all these papers.  knowing how these things works takes great knowledge of biology, and no one, including myself, on these forums has shown any sign of having dr. hsus level of expertise.  

whether this will be a useful treatment remains to be seen, and all we can do is be patient and let these people work, and be grateful that you even know about this at all, because in my opinion they are crazy to still be posting on here given the ridiculous amount of psychological disfunction displayed herein.

----------


## Frenchy2

> Please see the french topic, you will understand: http://forum.doctissimo.fr/sante/cal..._167836_51.htm
> 
> 65 pages, we are 65 millions of french (frogs for our friends from UK ) .  People were very optimistic with the press release. Then with waiting, a lot of people changed their point of view. One day they are very optimistic. One day they are very pessimistic


 not sure it's a good example, too much trolls on this forum, and even more on this thread pal...

#bringbackourhairlines follicept

----------


## Keki

At this point i wish there were a logic test and reading comphrension one for the registration if they think i'm really a fake follicept account, no kidding they must be on psychiatric paranoid medications or some mental deficit to really think that, i even posted a pic of my ****ig head, i said that the chance this works are like 1-2% and i'm ****ing european posting in european times, but yeah i'm a fake accoutn just because i don't perpetuate a defamation and a witch hunt, like you know a criminal offense in my country, the funny part is that is so simple to stop this accusations, i can post my driving license, the bookshelf near me, or my license plate when i go out in a couple of hours or even a picture of my windows where you can clearly see where i'm coming from but no, at this point you trolls deserve nothing, at least i can recognize who are worthing a comment and who no. And honstly at this point YOU could be an arashi alt account, totally plausible, he is obsessed in this paranoid stuff, he post a "give up comment" and come here to continue the same, yeah it's totally possible

----------


## diffuseloser

You dont have to defend yourself Keki. There's just a couple of paranoid nuts in here who are intent in causing havoc and slandering people.

----------


## Keki

And i want to point out AGAIN and AGAIN I am on the SKEPTICAL side, i do not believe this will works in 12 days, i believe this will never work on everyone, i believe the chance this can works are only possible through their vehicle, i begin to be interested when they said they needed only 6 units of insulin instead of 100+ with normal injection and i hope in some interaction with the follicle, but still this possibility is less then 1-2%? Basically we need a miracle, still i believe in insulin resistence and the igf as perfect growth factor for hairs but we never succeeded before sadly, I WILL NOT buy it if it cost me more then 150$ without other people reviews, and I WILL NOT buy it without real and clear pics of vellus going terminal.
I think this will put me in the same side of the 99% of balding people who are reading this thread.
The only "blind optimistic" behevior is i personally choose to not use proved treatment before their results, this indeed it costing me  A LOT of hairs in this couple of months, i believe me i'm ****ig suffering every time i see myself in the mirror or my sink clogged with HUNDREADS of hairs every time i wash my head,  and the fear of the wind when going out, so yes if this will not work i trashed a good 1000+ hairs i think it's a good price to pay for some genuine interest

----------


## breakbot

If i'm correct Devon is not a scientist. He came here to make all of you friends and advertise their magical vehicle and their company without any evidence of hair regrowth. By accident many members like sdsurfin patronize him.
They didn't wait for the trials and came here to say wow we guess we have an amazing product. All of the mice believers members don't know that igf1 has been tested via injections with other growth factors and didn't overperform minoxidil. Injections make the job as it has too.
I'm not obsessed like Arashi, who has a purpose of his life to reveal the scammers, but this is definitely a scam.

----------


## amoksha

Let's get it damn straight. I love Follicept , Devon and Hr Hsu.  I honestly think that the approach they are taking is too reductionist . Igf1 is one of many factors that remedy androgenic alopecia and at this point it's almost impossible to tell if it works stand-alone.

The hype and parroting of the information provided by Dr Hsu and Devon is dangerous. We need to research and double check everything they tell us, as they are humans and they can be wrong. Going to Harvard is not an indicator of anything. 

I was a lurker and when I saw an abnormal activity on the forum I intervened and decided to chime in.

 I also have marketing background and I can see that  general statements  and the verbiage used is clear "double-speak" or "weasel words" when talking of follicept. I am going to scour this thread  and the website and put together a folio of  statements / claims which are in clear violation of American Marketing  Associations  standards of marketing ethics . 

I'm based out of Cal and I'm not Arashi , I can also share my details if need be. Moderator can check the IPs . 

I've suffered from hair loss since the past few years, it eats my self esteem , confidence, love life like a termite from the inside. Life is hard and unbearable sometimes with this condition. 

I want Devon and Dr Hsu to be successful , I want Follicept and our community to find a cure . We all "loose" and we all "win" together in this battle. 

That being sense we all need to use our common sense, we need to question , sit on the fence and fully make sure this work.

If this works I won't hesitate to get it and go and give Devon a Dr Hsu a hi-5 or even a bro hug. 

My life is in shatters with hair loss. 

I just was astounded and shocked to see guys being so knaively positive.

I'll now keep quiet, and wait for results to pour in. I'll have lots of kudos and support for Devon and Hsu if it works. Hell ya, I'll evangelize this product if it can end our suffering.

However, if it fails which has a high probability, I'll have immense respect for Devon and Dr Hsu if they like thousands of scientists in the past admit that it didn't work and they need to try a different thing. It takes a lot of courage and honesty. 

I hope and I trust Devon and Dr Hsu will not play with the feeling of vulnerable people like me and others whose life is scarred with baldness. 

Good luck and I hope this works.

We all win and loose together..

Sorry Keki/Kokles if I came hard at ya. I had to instill a sense of healthy skepticism and bring some of ya people down to the ground reality from the "clouds".. Just don't want ya falling hard without a chute buddy. Trust me I've been there in the past..

Take care ! All the best.. Fingers crossed

----------


## Arashi

> I'm not accusing anyone, I'm stating what many others are observing about Keki. Truth shall prevail..


 Of course. Everybody here knows that Keki and Hemo are Follicept accounts. Both new, both only posting here, both ALWAYS and ALWAYS defending follicept, even if that's going against the interest of us, the consumers (like coming up with BS reasons why an independent test is a bad thing). And they seem to know a lot about this therapy, more like everybody else here. But yeah that all surely must be one big coincidence. LOL.

And now Devon upping the price of the therapy, to make more money in a short run. And then doubting if he should shave his head, with a multi billion reward for it ... Yeah that makes sense, who wouldnt have those doubts with only a multi billion dollar reward... Sigh...

----------


## amoksha

Arashi man, please keep quiet. Let us just wait and see. Let's not rain on the parade. Let's hope it works with cautious skepticism ..  :Smile: 

Honestly, there can be so many conspiracy theories but let's steer clear of them. 

I'm vowing to keep quiet and not engage in debate with anyone.

They accuse me of being you. Hahah!  

I'm waiting for the results of a "proper trial"..that starts next week.

I wish Follicept success and if they work, I vouch to be their biggest advocate. Until then cautious optimism and close monitoring/documentation of statements and responses shall prevail . 

#JustResultsNoArgument!
#GoFolliceptGo!

----------


## Arashi

> They accuse me of being you. Hahah!


 Of course. But I'd be willing to shoot a pic, with me and my passport in my hand with this forum on the compu in the back ground to Winston. If you do that too and Keki and Hemo too, then we'll see who's real and who's not. Deal guys ?

----------


## Hemo

I've never defended Follicept's product since I don't know if it works.  The only thing I've consistently stated is essentially "let the researchers do their work and wait for the trials", which you/amoksha ignore.  I'll be the first to cry foul if follicept goes on sale with little to no proof of efficacy, but am not going to condemn them when I haven't been given a reason to.

I do find it funny that both amoksha and Arashi end up posting so close together...you really think quoting yourself is really going to convince us that you're not the same person?

----------


## Arashi

> I've never defended Follicept's product since I don't know if it works.  The only thing I've consistently stated is essentially "let the researchers do their work and wait for the trials", which you/amoksha ignore.  I'll be the first to cry foul if follicept goes on sale with little to no proof of efficacy, but am not going to condemn them when I haven't been given a reason to.
> 
> I do find it funny that both amoksha and Arashi end up posting


 I've seen several people post big scepticism in this thread. Me, Swooping, Amoskha, Dus, Bigentries, just to name a few. We're really not alone here. Yet you keep throwing up insane reasons why it's a bad thing to do an independent forum test. And you're supposed to be a consumer ?

----------


## Hemo

> Take care ! All the best.. Fingers crossed


 There it is again!  The clue that gives away Arashi's identity...

----------


## Arashi

> There it is again!  The clue that gives away Arashi's identity...


 Then let's do that passport test. Are you and Keki game too ? Then we'll see who's real and who's not.

*EDIT* No answer, thougt so ... I guess it's not easy to find a replacement guy, not associated with Follicept, who wants his pic taken with his passport in his hand in front of a compu with this forum in the back ground eh  :Big Grin:

----------


## Arashi

Ten minutes have past and all I hear are some birds chirping ...

----------


## stayhopeful

> Ten minutes have past and all I hear are some birds chirping ...


 Arashi, bro, you've demonstrated time and again that you would really benefit from some hobbies.  Just relax until Monday bro.  I hope Follicept works, people like you need it the most out of all of us

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi, bro, you've demonstrated time and again that you would really benefit from some hobbies.  Just relax until Monday bro.  I hope Follicept works, people like you need it the most out of all of us


 20 minutes have passed without an answer from "Hemo" or "Keki". So all i demonstrated is that these guys ARE follicept accounts. But everybody already knew that of course. No way a consumer would be that much against an independent test, defending Follicept's interests instead of ours, the consumers. And coming to this forum, only posting in the Follicept threads and defending follicept like their lives depend on it. That would not make any sense.

No, you don't have to thank me for it.

----------


## follicept

You guys are funny. Here are some facts. 

I am the only one who posted my own face, name, address, phone number. That certainly isn't proof we aren't a scam by itself, but it's pretty stupid to do that if we are one. Thinking I am making other accounts is insane. I have zero time for that. And calling someone a paid rep is even crazier. Soon, like I have said, I will tell you what we have gone through to make this company (not just Follicept) work. Trust me, it's a lot, and a few thousand bucks isn't worth it or going to make a difference in our lives- and we certainly don't have enough to pay people to combat anonymous detractors. You all give me too much credit around hype and creating a brilliant marketing campaign. I am good, but not that good. I am responding to, not creating, this whole movement. If I was that good I would be making millions for a marketing firm, not sleeping on couches when I travel to save money. 

We haven't upped the price because we aren't selling anything. However, as we explore the possibility of the product working longer than a month or two, from a business standpoint it makes sense to extract full value from a product vs. its competitor. That said, we definitely plan to give you guys a better price on indiegogo than will be on the market, both of which remain to be seen. 

A few people have been in touch via email. sdsurfin had impressive knowledge on the subject and was engaged enough that we asked him to sign an NDA to discuss in detail. There is no conflict of interest because there is no interest. He has no position in the company or outcome. He was just curious and we decided to share with him. 

About the adjustments a few pages ago- yes, you are seeing everything in real time, even contributing to it. 

I will reiterate: we are not a scam. We are not selling anything. We have a theory we will begin testing on Monday. We may well be wrong. If so, we will not sell. About my buzzcut- you are clearly very skeptical, as you should be. If you are so convinced it won't work, would you get a buzz cut? I am not sure either, and am pretty hesitant to get one, even though the rewards could be huge if it works. However, the rewards will only be huge if it works really well. Like well enough to see even without a buzz cut for example. 

See you guys Monday! We will be trying it on 5-8 people, and we will post all the before pics and everything as soon as we can. 

Have a great weekend, I will be in the lab helping to make the batch!

Devon

----------


## Keki

At this point i'm scared, you sounds too much paranoid for me, i stated my point of view which is not a blind prometheon follower and my thought about follicept, you said i'm posting only here which is not true at all, indeed if YOU read the other threads in this section you will find me aswell but you didn't like you not even read this entire thread, and you know if someone who doesn't sound like a psycho REALLY questioned my identity like dunno swooping or illusion or whoever i would have posted my driving license and a note, no problem, but because it's you i will let you think i'm part of a global conspiracy, so you can continue to believe in this illuminati follicept evil corp of crap seller behind 50 proxy, the only real thing is the ofc i'm new account, no shit sherlock this is the only place where i could have posted some questions to them and have an answer

I don't want to be involved by you in any way, i think this kind of witch hunt job triggered something in your brain and can't think straight anymore, this is my last post to you, believe what you want i don't care, but i will not let you harrass me that's for sure, i'm not Devon

----------


## Arashi

> At this point i'm scared, you sounds too much paranoid for me, i stated my point of view which is not a blind prometheon follower and my thought about follicept, you said i'm posting only here which is not true at all, indeed if YOU read the other threads in this section you will find me aswell but you didn't like you not even read this entire thread, and you know if someone who doesn't sound like a psycho REALLY questioned my identity like dunno swooping or illusion or whoever i would have posted my driving license and a note, no problem, but because it's you i will let you think i'm part of a global conspiracy, so you can continue to believe in this illuminati follicept evil corp of crap seller behind 50 proxy, the only real thing is the ofc i'm new account, no shit sherlock this is the only place where i could have posted some questions to them and have an answer
> 
> I don't want to be involved by you in any way, i think this kind of witch hunt job triggered something in your brain and can't think straight anymore, this is my last post to you, believe what you want i don't care, but i will not let you harrass me that's for sure, i'm not Devon


 Words words words. Yet you don't want to send out a picture to winston for him to verify. And Hemo isn't even posting anymore, he's probably looking for a guy who wants to shoot a pic instead of him, LOL.

The whole Follicept story, it all becomes more credible every day. And did Devon decide on shaving his head already ?

----------


## follicept

> Words words words. Yet you don't want to send out a picture to winston for him to verify. And Hemo isn't even posting anymore, he's probably looking for a guy who wants to shoot a pic instead of him, LOL.
> 
> The whole Follicept story, it all becomes more credible every day. And did Devon decide on shaving his head already ?


 Want a quick skype chat later to answer any of your questions? You don't have to show your face, but I can show mine. I truly don't mind your skepticism, but am tired of your attacks. It is really unfair.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Conspiracy theory was launched by Arashi. I spoke about that in the past. Arashi could see 1000 photos of Devon with a bunch of hair on the front line, he will see a conspiracy... 

So man, i will say you that with a lot of respect: leave this topic. I have my small idea about the reason why you don't want a cure...

----------


## Jagger

> Words words words. Yet you don't want to send out a picture to winston for him to verify. And Hemo isn't even posting anymore, he's probably looking for a guy who wants to shoot a pic instead of him, LOL.
> 
> The whole Follicept story, it all becomes more credible every day. And did Devon decide on shaving his head already ?


 Sending a picture would verify precisely nothing. You can just find one online. Same reason someone on here - you, I think - claimed that IP address proof meant nothing.

Can you, like, calm the **** down? I'm here to read about Follicept, not your ridiculous, baseless assumptions that every other person on this forum is a paid representative.

----------


## Hemo

I didn't reply immediately because I have a job...

Also, if you look at my post history, I have posted elsewhere, and even stated in this thread that follicept is unlikely to be a groundbreaking treatment (it's just a reality, the odds are stacked against them).  

As for a picture, I don't know what that would confirm.  Nobody here knows me and in turn a picture w/ a passport wouldn't confirm or deny that I'm legitimate.  Explain how posting a picture would do anything to verify that I'm not a follicept employee?

----------


## amoksha

Guys let's face it. We need a clean thread. Is there a way to ask Winston to create "a new forum" where ONLY Devon can post the results. 

No other users can comment or say anything. It will just be a collection of results , photos, videos  and pictures in neutral, clear scientific language minus any weasel words, double speak or marketing lingo . Clear objective information. 

Winston can you do that?

The questions or asides related to that forum can be shared in this forum... 

We need a centralized place to field ONLY Devon's statements..

----------


## diffuseloser

"Everybody here knows that Keki and Hemo are Follicept accounts"

Yeah, you and about 2 others, most likely. You don't speak for the rest of us. You are seriously paranoid. Not everyone here is licking Follicept's ass. We have a handful of doubters , yourself being one of them, crying conspiracy. We also have a handful of young guys who are getting their hopes up and getting over excited about this new treatment. In actual fact, the majority of us have our own minds and can make our own decisions. We are not stupid and we won't be handing over any cash until we are 100% convinced. Calm down, you are making yourself look like a proper nutcase.

----------


## amoksha

A separate  "locked" forum  thread only allowing for Devon's id will ensure that the people visiting  the  forum can get the trial info all in one place on follicept without having to sift through schizophrenic praises and put downs and unnecessary arguments/commentaries. 

People can cite content, discuss, argue on content excerpts  from that forum and ask questions/make commentaries..in this forum here .. which is already polluted..

----------


## Keki

i just leave this here http://imgur.com/yHJc0x6 just for a good laught, what are these mysterious illuminati items?

----------


## Borealis

> A separate  "locked" forum  thread only allowing for Devon's id will ensure that the people visiting  the  forum can get the trial info all in one place on follicept without having to sift through schizophrenic praises and put downs and unnecessary arguments/commentaries. 
> 
> People can cite content, discuss, argue on content excerpts  from that forum and ask questions/make commentaries..in this forum here .. which is already polluted..


 Excellent idea!

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi told me by private message: "Mickael Jackson is not dead!" lollllllllll


 May I remind you that it was *hemo* who started accusing two accounts of being the same (me and that other guy). And while I actually have no problems shooting a picture of me up my passport along my own face with the pc with this forum in the background and sending it out to Winston, to verify, Hemo magically DOES have such problems and so does Keki. Or any other kinds of proof, I don't mind spupplying it. I have nothing to hide. Keki and Hemo do. As are they against any kind of verifiable proof that Follicept actually is for really. According to them, independent proof is actually a BAD thing. If you're really a consumer, how can you even say such a thing ?

----------


## just2hairs

Arashi dude, i didn't realize all those times you fought against Nigam and Yoram, you were just a paranoid fool who got lucky and had it right.  You lost all my respect man.  You're looking desperate!

No one here is confident that Follicept will work, but to keep repeating yourself that this is a scam and spies at this stage is just ludicrous!

----------


## Arashi

> Arashi dude, i didn't realize all those times you fought against Nigam and Yoram, you were just a paranoid fool who lucky and had it right.


 You forget Gho, that colombian company and that chloro guy. I have had a lot of luck being right, eh  :Smile:  And it was always the same. Everybody buying into it. And when everybody finally agrees it was just a way to get money out of our pockets then magically everybody knew all along ....

BTW, how do you even know about all that with a 2015 account ?

----------


## Jagger

> You forget Gho, that colombian company and that chloro guy. I have had a lot of luck being right, eh  And it was always the same. Everybody buying into it. And when everybody finally agrees it was just a way to get money out of our pockets then magically everybody knew all along ....
> 
> BTW, how do you even know about all that with a 2015 account ?


 Lurkers exist. I've been here for six years but never felt compelled to make an account until assholes started flooding out what could be valuable information.

----------


## Arashi

> Lurkers exist. I've been here for six years but never felt compelled to make an account until assholes started flooding out what could be valuable information.


 Then why didn't you post in the hasci thread?

----------


## follicept

Here is the updated summary/theory from Dr. Hsu- hot off the presses! http://*******/follicept

----------


## Swooping

> Here is the updated summary/theory from Dr. Hsu- hot off the presses! http://*******/follicept


 Post it here.

----------


## Jagger

> Then why didn't you post in the hasci thread?


 Haven't had a desk job til now, and work is really the only time I'm here (slackin')

At any rate, my point is, just because someone has a 2015 account doesn't mean they're a Follicept drone. As has been pointed out, there are a lot of foreigners and people joining in because Follicept is engaging the consumers directly, only on this forum. If they were on Reddit instead, that's where I'd be.

----------


## Keki

Devon if the igf is dose dependant and we can clearly see the 10ppm on the rat is better, what's the dose in the human trial? Seems only the 10ppm on the rat can be compared with minox in term of cosmetic growth

----------


## Experiment626

> Bit ly


 Devon you've been too kind in responding to Arashi's posts. I think it will do you good as well as us if we all stopped responding to him. He is nothing but a cancer to this thread and is devoid of sound reason right now lol. You have nothing to gain from responding to him and it just feeds his response baiting....

At this point I'm not quite sure if I care if this works so much as if I can just stop scrolling past Arashi's posts. :Shrug:  :Confused:  :Confused:  :Confused:

----------


## follicept

> Devon if the igf is dose dependant and we can clearly see the 10ppm on the rat is better, what's the dose in the human trial? Seems only the 10ppm on the rat can be compared with minox in term of cosmetic growth


 We'll be testing 1ppm and 10ppm in our clinical trials. Obviously, we want the lowest dose that has an effect.

----------


## FrenchNewbie

Thank you Devon. Here you can see the powerpoint made by Dr.Hsu to explain how Follicept works: https://www.dropbox.com/s/q6o8qpycp2...Work.pdf?dl=0#

Friends, please don't answer to Arashi. He is happy when a person answer him.

----------


## amoksha

+1

----------


## amoksha

> Here is the updated summary/theory from Dr. Hsu- hot off the presses! http://*******/follicept


 +1

----------


## noisette

> Want a quick skype chat later to answer any of your questions? You don't have to show your face, but I can show mine. I truly don't mind your skepticism, but am tired of your attacks. It is really unfair.


 Don't worry Devon, we are so many people who support you  :Smile:  Keep faith ...

----------


## amoksha

+1 

#HailFollicept
#End.Baldness.Now

----------


## Hemo

> We'll be testing 1ppm and 10ppm in our clinical trials. Obviously, we want the lowest dose that has an effect.


 Devon, any chance you offer different strengths if it's a success?

----------


## Mehdi

Hi Devon !

I just registered to tell you that I put a lot of hope in your new possible treatment. I'm 25 and starting to lose my hair, I really don't want to be bald in my 30's. So any good lotion that would be really effective now is more than welcome ! Thanks for updating us and don't mind the bad tongues  :Smile:  

Mehdi

----------


## noquierosercalvo

I really hope you save me Devon, im thinking in this every second of mi life, thanks

----------


## bhobho

Hello guys, i'm italian and i'm a new member of this forum. I read all the 178 pages of this thread and i think that a lot of users understimate Devon and dr. Hsu. I don't think that Dr Hsu and Devon woke up a month ago and though: " oh i'll go to cure baldness today, and i think that IGF-1 could be a good product, i 'll ask a team if they wont work with me tomorrow  on this projet". Come on, they know what they do and nobody here has as much knowledge as this team. Will it work ? I don't know, but if this team work on it, it means that it is possibile that it will works and some users on this thread have no title to say that it will not work. They say "it will not work" every single time because they know that statistically it will not work ( we had a lot of disappointments to find a cure) and not because they know what they are talking about. They know that they statistically are correct but haven't knowledge to say that it will not work. 

Devon thank you for your posts and please ignore this kind of users, they are on every forums.They attack you for all the disappointments thet we had in the past.

Sorry for my bad english!

----------


## Jagger

> Hello guys, i'm italian and i'm a new member of this forum. I read all the 178 pages of this thread and i think that a lot of users understimate Devon and dr. Hsu. I don't think that Dr Hsu and Devon woke up a month ago and though: " oh i'll go to cure baldness today, and i think that IGF-1 could be a good product, i 'll ask a team if they wont work with me tomorrow  on this projet". Come on, they know what they do and nobody here has as much knowledge as this team. Will it work ? I don't know, but if this team work on it, it means that it is possibile that it will works and some users on this thread have no title to say that it will not work. They say "it will not work" every single time because they know that statistically it will not work ( we had a lot of disappointments to find a cure) and not because they know what they are talking about. They know that they statistically are correct but haven't knowledge to say that it will not work. 
> 
> Devon thank you for your posts and please ignore this kind of users, they are on every forums.They attack you for all the disappointments thet we had in the past.
> 
> Sorry for my bad english!


 Your English is fine  :Smile:  I know native speakers who aren't as good at it as you are.

I'm stoked about the trials, Devon. Very excited to see whether or not there is potential here. We have a hypothesis - now let's see if it leads to results. I've got a beach trip later this year and a full head of hair would just be so wonderful, I could grow it out and let it fly in the beach wind...

----------


## amoksha

Aww.. Nothing like a full head of luscious silky hair :-) 

 Fingers crossed.. Hoping this works 

I need this treatment really bad..

----------


## stayhopeful

> Your English is fine  I know native speakers who aren't as good at it as you are.


 cough arashi cough swooping

----------


## Banana Republic

Even if Follicept works, I still suggest we all chip in a few hundred dollars each to build a 50 foot statue of Arashi (several of them, in fact) to serve as a lasting testament to his incalculable service to humanity on BTT. Without him, we would all literally be dead.

----------


## stayhopeful

> Even if Follicept works, I still suggest we all chip in a few hundred dollars each to build a 50 foot statue of Arashi (several of them, in fact) to serve as a lasting testament to his incalculable service to humanity on BTT. Without him, we would all literally be dead.


 lol I know it's wayyyy to early to make these statements... but IFF it is determined follicept works like described on their website...... I say we build statues of Dr. Hsu and Devon ... seriously lol

----------


## stayhopeful

> Even if Follicept works, I still suggest we all chip in a few hundred dollars each to build a 50 foot statue of Arashi (several of them, in fact) to serve as a lasting testament to his incalculable service to humanity on BTT. Without him, we would all literally be dead.


 LoL yeah where would we be without Swooping's amazing scientific knowledge and Arashi's incredible psychic capabilites.. sigh... thank the lord for their talents

----------


## nameless

> cough arashi cough swooping


 I would not compare Arishi's arguments to Swoopings. Swoopings positions are well thought out and his concerns are more logical and scientific. 

For example, Swooping says that *Histogen has IGF-1 and Histogen isn't growing a lot of hair*. Are you saying that this argument by Swooping isn't sound? I think it's sound. Histogen is not growing a ton of hair and they are injecting IGF-1, along with a lot of other growth factors and proteins. 

Then Arishi will come along and say, *Follicept is an intentional scam and the company is a big fraud because they won't have the bald truth posters be the test subjects. And the ONLY possible reason for the company not to let the bald truth posters be the test subjects is so that the company can pull a scam. There is no other possible reason.*  These kinds of statements are ludicrous. Arishi is not giving the company the chance to make the right decision or the wrong decision. First you prove efficacy or otherwise then you see what the company does. It's too early to call the company a scam.

----------


## BoSox

[QUOTE=nameless;205646]*Histogen has IGF-1 and Histogen isn't growing a lot of hair*

Well, f***  :Frown:

----------


## Chromeo

I certainly agree we need a topic for Devon alone to post results and information. I'm tired of sifting through the endless BS, baseless accusations and in-fighting from the mentally ill, paranoid hair-loss sufferers on here. This isn't about you and how good you are at spotting a scam or whatever the hell it is you're looking for credit for. 

Quit the pathetic attention-seeking and let the guy tell us what he's got. I really couldn't care less whether you think it's a scam or not. Your opinions mean nothing. The results will give us all the information we need.

----------


## serenemoon

[QUOTE=BoSox;205654]


> *Histogen has IGF-1 and Histogen isn't growing a lot of hair*
> 
> Well, f***


 It is only one time injection with histogen though...not 12 doses in one month. Fingers crossed that the multiple doses help!!!

----------


## nameless

[QUOTE=serenemoon;205656]


> It is only one time injection with histogen though...not 12 doses in one month. Fingers crossed that the multiple doses help!!!


 Very good point. 

But do keep in mind that even though Follicept is applied a lot more often than Histogen, Follicept is just one growth factor whereas Histogen is many growth factors. Doesn't that mean that in order for Follicept to grow a good amount of hair IGF-1 would have to be THE KEY growth factor in hair loss, and if that were the case doesn't it seems like we would have been hearing a lot more about IGF-1 than we have heard about it over the years?

----------


## Arashi

> cough arashi cough swooping


 Thanks for the compliment,  we are both Dutch though.  Thanks anyway,  appreciate  it.

----------


## Arashi

> I would not compare Arishi's arguments to Swoopings. Swoopings positions are well thought out and his concerns are more logical and scientific. 
> 
> For example, Swooping says that *Histogen has IGF-1 and Histogen isn't growing a lot of hair*. Are you saying that this argument by Swooping isn't sound? I think it's sound. Histogen is not growing a ton of hair and they are injecting IGF-1, along with a lot of other growth factors and proteins. 
> 
> Then Arishi will come along and say, *Follicept is an intentional scam and the company is a big fraud because they won't have the bald truth posters be the test subjects. And the ONLY possible reason for the company not to let the bald truth posters be the test subjects is so that the company can pull a scam. There is no other possible reason.*  These kinds of statements are ludicrous. Arishi is not giving the company the chance to make the right decision or the wrong decision. First you prove efficacy or otherwise then you see what the company does. It's too early to call the company a scam.


 So can swooping consider this post as a compliment ?  Just trying to figure out your post.  Thanks jarjar!

----------


## stayhopeful

> I would not compare Arishi's arguments to Swoopings. Swoopings positions are well thought out and his concerns are more logical and scientific. 
> 
> For example, Swooping says that *Histogen has IGF-1 and Histogen isn't growing a lot of hair*. Are you saying that this argument by Swooping isn't sound? I think it's sound. Histogen is not growing a ton of hair and they are injecting IGF-1, along with a lot of other growth factors and proteins. 
> 
> Then Arishi will come along and say, *Follicept is an intentional scam and the company is a big fraud because they won't have the bald truth posters be the test subjects. And the ONLY possible reason for the company not to let the bald truth posters be the test subjects is so that the company can pull a scam. There is no other possible reason.*  These kinds of statements are ludicrous. Arishi is not giving the company the chance to make the right decision or the wrong decision. First you prove efficacy or otherwise then you see what the company does. It's too early to call the company a scam.


 The fact that you and Swooping even attempt to argue that Follicept and Histogen are equatable, simply based on the fact that they share ONE similar ingredient is quite alarming, particularly considering the intelligence Swooping portrays himself to have. You cannot derive any logical conclusion whatsoever based on the fact that two products share a similar ingredient.  Just because pizza is not healthy for me, does that mean tomatoes are not healthy either?  truly unbelievable

----------


## nameless

> The fact that you and Swooping even attempt to argue that Follicept and Histogen are equatable, simply based on the fact that they share ONE similar ingredient is quite alarming, particularly considering the intelligence Swooping portrays himself to have. You cannot derive any logical conclusion whatsoever based on the fact that two products share a similar ingredient.  Just because pizza is not healthy for me, does that mean tomatoes are not healthy either?  truly unbelievable


 
Stayhopeful, It's not like Follicept shares one ingredient with Histogen and then Follicept also has other ingredients. That one ingredient that Follicept share with Histogen is the ONLY ingredient that Follicept has.

----------


## snowie

is there a date on the release of follicept, or will we soon get one ?   :Smile:  ( sorry for my bad english )

----------


## TravisB

Why does this thread have 180 pages?

Is there any proof that it might work on humans, other than the rat pictures?

This is a serious question, I don't want to read through 180 pages :P

If there is something significant, please direct me to the page, thanks.

----------


## Keki

Guys i think we should focus on the rat picture for once, if we compare the 10ppm and the minox one they are similar in term of cosmetic results, let's pretend it work exactly the same in human, we have the same minox regrowth, slightly better or worse. 
We know two fact, when minox works WELL, give us 2-3 years of hairs back, which is basically a 1.5 nw back, if it doesn't work well people continue to use it being afraid of a minox shedding, so it's a deal with the devil but without a 100% success rate. So even if slightly worse people should use follicept, at least they will cure themself only few days in a year.
At the same time we know we can use propecia, and that for sure will fight the hairloss cutting the dht, the real question now is why in their theory they think cutting the dht is not necessary anymore? They think the only reason why dht kills the follicle is the igf-1 decrease or what? I wonder if a combo propecia+follicept is more effective, pretending a working follicept next month

----------


## noquierosercalvo

If they said that its not already tested on humans yet, how is possible there are pics of hair grown advance result of their web site ? 

that one:
http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/...ept_hvhpt5.png

sorry my english, thanks

----------


## noisette

> If they said that its not already tested on humans yet, how is possible there are pics of hair grown advance result of their web site ? 
> 
> that one:
> http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/...ept_hvhpt5.png
> 
> sorry my english, thanks


 This is a rat, not a human being  :Smile:

----------


## noquierosercalvo

oh that is what i thought, thanks.

----------


## breakbot

> This is a rat, not a human being


 This is all the fight story about, Noisette.

----------


## tom12345

> I will reiterate: we are not a scam. We are not selling anything. We have a theory we will begin testing on Monday. We may well be wrong. If so, we will not sell. About my buzzcut- you are clearly very skeptical, as you should be. If you are so convinced it won't work, would you get a buzz cut? I am not sure either, and am pretty hesitant to get one, even though the rewards could be huge if it works. However, the rewards will only be huge if it works really well. Like well enough to see even without a buzz cut for example


 Yes, I did get a buzzcut before trying Minoxidil, so I would. Both to photograph and look for results, and to ensure product wasn't wasted on the hair instead of scalp. Heck, even the provokative columnist Katie Hopkins put vanity aside and put on 45 lbs of weight so she could lose it again to prove her point which is that fat people are just lazy. In case you do not get a buzzcut, please post weekly updates of also somebody with short hair and more severe balding. While you're saying "if it works well, it'll be visible on my longer hair", there might be indicators much more visible on those with less hair that says maybe it's working but needs some adjustments.

----------


## Mehdi

What will be the exact dosage of IGF-1 in the Follicept treatment ? The IGF signaling pathway is implicated in some cancers so we should be careful about it. Also the sometomedin is basically known to promote cell and hormons growth, like isn't there any risk to see some irregular development of the bones or some other parts of the body?

----------


## amoksha

> lol I know it's wayyyy to early to make these statements... but IFF it is determined follicept works like described on their website...... I say we build statues of Dr. Hsu and Devon ... seriously lol


 StayHopeful, sorry man but this is a bit far stretched. Devon and Hsu are great people, but I don't think their solution will present a complete cure to androgenic alopecia. It's 50/50 chance that it will work or not. Odds are split. 

Please don't "hype" the conversation. Please stay neutral and objective. 

Let's hope it works but for now, let's not "hype" it .

Also, Hsu and Devon might be great people, but I won't make statues of them. 

Baldness is a affliction that psychologically and physically impacts us all, but it's not as bad as cancer , multiple sclerosis or autism which completely debilitates you and your human dignity. 

Please hold your horses and kindly please post to the thread when you have something "meaningful" or have  scientific questions .

You are "equally" at fault as Swooping or Arashi for polluting this thread with your meaningless mumbo jumbo. 

You pointed fingers at Arashi and others, look at yourself in the mirror man. I'm sure you'll find the reality hit hard.

Good luck, but please don't given others false hope or act like you know something about follicept others don't thus they should be excited or hyper like you .

I'm a skeptically/cautiously optimistic. I'm reserving my statements for after the trials and then I will led the firehoose loose of praises or proper critique .

Please keep our egos and emotions in  control.

Thanks!

----------


## stayhopeful

> StayHopeful, sorry man but this is a bit far stretched. Devon and Hsu are great people, but I don't think their solution will present a complete cure to androgenic alopecia. It's 50/50 chance that it will work or not. Odds are split. 
> 
> Please don't "hype" the conversation. Please stay neutral and objective. 
> 
> Let's hope it works but for now, let's not "hype" it .
> 
> Also, Hsu and Devon might be great people, but I won't make statues of them. 
> 
> Baldness is a affliction that psychologically and physically impacts us all, but it's not as bad as cancer , multiple sclerosis or autism which completely debilitates you and your human dignity. 
> ...


 bro, loook carefully at how i qualified my statements.  I stand by them.  They are perfectly legitimate.  I understand balding isn't cancer.  But it is a SEVERE psychological issue in the type of society we live in today.  you can't understate that.  And what I said is IFFF it works like it says on their website... perfectly legit statement, but i understand what you're saying the general theme of it may be a little too strong given the trials haven't started, my bad

----------


## bananana

@devon,

what happened to mice 3 months post treatment? You didnt show that data in the presentation.
Just curious. 

tnx and good luck!

----------


## follicept

> I would not compare Arishi's arguments to Swoopings. Swoopings positions are well thought out and his concerns are more logical and scientific. 
> 
> For example, Swooping says that *Histogen has IGF-1 and Histogen isn't growing a lot of hair*. Are you saying that this argument by Swooping isn't sound? I think it's sound. Histogen is not growing a ton of hair and they are injecting IGF-1, along with a lot of other growth factors and proteins. 
> 
> Then Arishi will come along and say, *Follicept is an intentional scam and the company is a big fraud because they won't have the bald truth posters be the test subjects. And the ONLY possible reason for the company not to let the bald truth posters be the test subjects is so that the company can pull a scam. There is no other possible reason.*  These kinds of statements are ludicrous. Arishi is not giving the company the chance to make the right decision or the wrong decision. First you prove efficacy or otherwise then you see what the company does. It's too early to call the company a scam.


 Great, relevant question. This is why we are here. From Dr. Hsu:

This is an astute question! Maimonides is credited with the following teaching that I use to help my students not be afraid of not knowing the answer: "Teach thy tongue to say I do not know, and thou shalt progress." All scientific investigation begins with "Why..." or "How...," which implies "I do not know." It is also the inspiration to answer those questions. 

I don't know if it is an accurate statement that there is a "universal type of initial shedding common to all good therapies." What current therapies are considered to be "good?"

We won't know with certainty how pulse stimulation will affect "semi-terminal follicles" that will eventually lose the ability to grow a hair shaft as they transition to telogen. Perhaps with enough longitudinal follow-up data on those on Follicept, the answer will reveal itself.  

In the mouse study by Li et al 2014, a synchronized telogen was induced by application of a depilatory (well known property) in an 18-day study. "Semi-terminal follicles" in those with AGA in the thinning stage represent a population that are undergoing progressively shortened anagen that will eventually regress to telogen. However, they are not synchronized. Follicept may induce a new cycle of prolonged anagen in the population of "semi-terminal" follicles that are soonest to reach telogen marked by imminent hair loss. 

I cannot offer as satisfying a conjecture regarding the effect of Follicept on other asynchronous follicle populations representing the continuum of increasingly shorter anagen cycles in the natural history of AGA. However, it makes sense that intermittent "pulse stimulation" cycles with intervening periods without Follicept application may be the most beneficial regimen for those with earlier stage AGA and thinning hair. The Follicept-free interval may be different for different men, but a regimen employing alternating cycles of on/off use would be a reasonable starting point. In this sense, each user will be an investigator studying his/her own pattern of optimal response to Follicept, adjusting the regimen in an iterative manner to achieve maximum benefit. 

Women with AGA have a characteristic pattern of thinning hair loss that may achieve the greatest response from such an intermittent and alternating cycle regimen. Since we plan on doing a second, possibly overlapping clinical trial for women, the study design will specifically address the most effective regimen for Follicept pulse stimulation. 

I have age-related thinning that is very gradual, but cumulative. A small bald spot has appeared at the vertex. I will be one of the early subjects who will start Follicept next Monday (April 27, 2015). We're all excited here at Prometheon. Hang on folks. The fireworks are about to be lit!

----------


## Keki

For me balding is like running a fever, a never ending shitty fever, you can do your stuff but you will never enjoy the day like you used before, and the treatment we have now is like curing a cold with a XVII style bloodletting

----------


## Boldy

Hey guys,

This post will contain facts mainly for informational purpose for the readers of this site, not to discourage the owners of this product or what so ever. I think that it is important to stay with both feet on the ground, and stay realistic. I respect the effort put into this project, and am not sure where it went wrong. Weather it was just an over enthusiastic entrepreneur who had some connections to a professor who didn't gasp the difference between mice and human, or lack of research, but it does not matter, still respect for the try. 

Follicept Quote 1:



> Re: the rat model/pics:	
> 
> *We used the CD hairless rat, which has a gene mutation that gives it kinky, wiry, wispy hair. This is ideal for transdermal testing, because it limits any follicular transport that could confound results, and the hair isn’t in the way. So basically, we are growing hair despite a gene that should be preventing it. We find that compelling.* There are other rat models that are hairier or at least look it, used by other companies to show growth, about which you are all rightfully skeptical. As far as our pictures go- we are not professionals in that regard, and the inconsistency comes from user error and cropping, not from trying to find lighting or zoom that makes it look better than it is.


 1).  No reason to find the results on a CD Hairless mice compelling. It is just  confirmation of this initial study:  http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1.../5603603a.html



> Mesenchymal–epithelial signalling between the dermal papilla and the hair matrix regulates cell proliferation and differentiation in mature hair follicles. The molecular basis of these interactions is largely unexplored. According to its expression in the dermal papilla, * IGF-I is likely involved in reciprocal signalling*. To examine its biological function in pelage follicles further, we generated transgenic mice that express Igf-I in the inner root sheath and the medulla using an involucrin promoter fragment. *We demonstrate that Igf-I affects follicular proliferation*, tissue remodelling, and the hair growth cycle, as well as folliclular differentiation. Transgenic skin temporarily lacks visible adipose tissue in telogen. The onset of the second, aberrant growth phase is markedly retarded. Transgenic guard hairs are significantly elongated and a small fraction of hair follicles is severely disoriented. The microscopic appearance of most hair shafts is altered and, strikingly, * Igf-I transgenic mice lack hairs with a zigzag shape due to the suppression of hair shaft bending. All transgenic effects are partially compensated by ectopic expression of Igfbp3. Finally, Pdgfr  was identified as the first molecular target that is affected in Igf-I transgenic mice. In summary, our data identify IGF-I signalling as an important mitogenic and morphogenetic regulator in hair follicle biology*.


 Let’s be clear about some facts here.
-	IGF1 is a mitogen, it is *pro proliferation*.
-	CD hairless mice is mutated, which * prevent*   the cells, from among others to proliferate, see below

http://www.criver.com/products-servi...d-hairless-rat
* Therefore, the mutation in the CR rat abrogates cell proliferation in the hair matrix and affects keratinocyte differentiation in the HF and interfollicular epidermis, a phenotype that is completely distinct from hr/hr. To test whether the CR rat harbored a mutation in the hr gene, we analyzed the coding region of this gene and consensus intron splice site sequences in mutant rats and found no mutation, further supporting phenotypic evidence that the hairless phenotype in CR rats is not allelic with hairless. Finally, using intragenic polymorphisms, we were able to exclude homozygosity at the hairless locus by use of genotypic analysis. Thus, morphologic analysis of successive stages of phenotype development in the CR hairless rat, together with definitive molecular studies, indicate that this mutation may be unique among the other hypotrichotic rat mutations.* 

-	So you take a fresh mice, with fresh cells (not affected telomerase in contrast to AGA Calls) mice that lacks among others a strong mito genic, and feed it with a mitgogen, as results the fresh cells proliferate, and kick start the telogen phase/ matrix proliferation.

2 problems with that approach.
1.	You take a mice with fresh cells, fresh telomere, which is mutated, and misses a mitogen, you give it a mitogen, and telogen phase kicks in, very logical.
2.	This does not translate to human AGA cells, I will show you why.	
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1...id201528a.html
a.	In short, without running into details, aga is the result of senescenced cells. Yes it starts with excess AR in the DP in the affected area, however ROS and lack / up regulation of factors, cause senescenced (aged) cells. These cells lack the ability to proliferate, or do anything, and have basically 2 choices. 
i.	They destroy themselves (apoptosis)
ii.	They just sit there without any faction in growth arrest. And start to affect nearby cells with negative signals.
You can’t just add igf1 to aga  aged cells. IGF1 is a recognized factor in aging, refer to this study for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22877754





> Cellular senescence is characterized by growth arrest, enlarged and flattened cell morphology, the expression of senescence-associated β-galactosidase (SA-β-gal), and by activation of tumor suppressor networks. * Insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) plays a critical role in cellular growth, proliferation, tumorigenesis, and regulation of aging*. In the present study, we show that IGF-I enhances cellular senescence in mouse, rat, and human primary cells in the confluent state. *  IGF-I induced expression of a DNA damage marker, γH2AX, the increased levels of p53 and p21 proteins*, and activated SA-β-gal. In the confluent state, an altered downstream signaling of IGF-I receptor was observed. Treatment with a reactive oxygen species (ROS) scavenger, N-acetylcystein (NAC) significantly suppressed induction of these markers, indicating that ROS are involved in the induction of cellular senescence by IGF-I. In p53-null mouse embryonic fibroblasts, the IGF-I-induced augmentation of SA-β-gal and p21 was inhibited, demonstrating that p53 is required for cellular senescence induced by IGF-I. * Thus, these data reveal a novel pathway whereby IGF-I enhances cellular senescence in the ROS and p53-dependent manner and may explain the underlying mechanisms of IGF-I involvement in tumorigenesis and in regulation of aging.*


 With other words, you can’t just ad IGF1 only, if you want to protect your cells. Instead you start with express damaging of what is left of the DNA. Result of physically destroyed mitochondria(which is responsible for the energy metabolism within the cell.


Let’s say or assume your “special” vehicle is as good as injection  or proved nano liposomal delivery, which proved to deliver molecules/compounds bigger than 7 kda into the dermal layer, then we still have to cope with some failed human trials with IGF1, or stronger, more preferable mitogenics. See table below:




You might want to adjust your formula now and make follicept V2 with FGF2, however that is tried too, at low and high doses.
On the other forum we tried IGF1, FGF2 ,fgf7 ,fgf10 in Nano solution at 2- 25 ppm, 2 people injected IGF / FGF2 without result unfortunately about 2-3 years ago, As noobs we didn't know why back then, but now we understand why.

Some notes from my side: 
Without running in to conclusion, 1. I find it worrying that some new posters pop up and start defending this hype like their life depend on it. 2. That the trial is run  in-house privately, there can be some conflict of interest if the results are not as expected, and the product still need to be released.
Outsourcing the trial and preferably letting some trusted members participate is more of a hassle, but the only way to gain trust in my opinion. Perhaps this issue can be addressed by follicept.

Good luck all!

----------


## EXprettyboy

@boldy,

You are talking about fully senescent cells which is complete norwood 7 stuff. For somebody with some miniaturisation or norwood 3, the product could prove to be superior to anything available at the moment.

So a declaration of 'nice try' is inappropriate. We may rule out full baldness reversal but that does not mean this will not be a game changer. If I want to get a hair transplant to recover hairline I can maintain with follicept instead of fin, and that's the difference between hair and no hair.

----------


## Hemo

Why are people still questioning the legitimacy of Follicept's design?  This isn't some philosophical debate; trials begin on Monday and will reveal whether or not it's effective.  If not, the skeptics can yell "I told you so!" while the real scientists (e.g. those behind Follicept) continue doing research.  There's no sense in going back and forth when we'll have answers in several weeks.  I think most people here would love for follicept to work but very few sincerely believe it will be a game changer (myself included).

----------


## MoolahLea

I particularly believe this could be a game changer too. But, I am being careful with getting my expectations high. And this is only cause I lack the technical knowledge that goes into all this science, meaning I am not an expert in this domain. Monday is fast approaching! Can't wait! Devon, I am praying that it does work... Just went for a trip with a bunch of friends, and trust me.. the balding jokes were just off the charts. hahaha... Gets to me sometimes, despite telling myself not to worry about it.

----------


## serenemoon

> LOL. Boldy, by far the most knowledable member this forum has, just KILLED Follicept in his post. Not with some broscience a la 'think of a big pizza', but with REAL science. He explained you guys why the hairless mouse grew hair (these mice were modified to miss mitogen and then they gave back that mitogen and of course then the telogen phase kicks in). And he showed you guys scientific proof that IGF-1 is actually the growthfactor the LEAST associated with hair growth, in *VIVO* *proofed in *human clinical trials*.* And all you can come up with is a dumb remark like you just posted ... What a joke.


 I won't lie, Boldy's argument is powerful. Now, I don't know if there is an argument against this or not, and maybe we will only get a real answer to this after the Follicept trial results, but his argument definitely made me think and was really well put together. Really eager to hear what Follicept has to say about what he said, from a scientific point of view.

----------


## serenemoon

> @boldy,
> 
> You are talking about fully senescent cells which is complete norwood 7 stuff. For somebody with some miniaturisation or norwood 3, the product could prove to be superior to anything available at the moment.


 If that is the case, then Follicept should work well. I was not sure of the "definition" of senescnent..but if it only applies to severe baldness, then that is great.

----------


## Sogeking

> If that is the case, then Follicept should work well. I was not sure of the "definition" of senescnent..but if it only applies to severe baldness, then that is great.


 I would have to agree with Boldy though. And basically the only problem I have with all of this is:



> 2. That the trial is run in-house privately, there can be some conflict of interest if the results are not as expected, and the product still need to be released.


 .

As for the senescent cells in our scalp, no one can tell with certainty that NW3 doesn't have senescent cells. Basically all of the areas on the scalp that are completely bald could have senescent cells.

However if follicept is completely transparent about the results or lack thereof it is still nice someone is actually trying. 

I guess this could be closed in a matter of month or two unlike waiting for something for a year to see if it actually does something as it is the case with Bimatoprost.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Hey guys,
> 
> This post will contain facts mainly for informational purpose for the readers of this site, not to discourage the owners of this product or what so ever. I think that it is important to stay with both feet on the ground, and stay realistic. I respect the effort put into this project, and am not sure where it went wrong. Weather it was just an over enthusiastic entrepreneur who had some connections to a professor who didn't gasp the difference between mice and human, or lack of research, but it does not matter, still respect for the try. 
> 
> Follicept Quote 1:
> 
> 1).  No reason to find the results on a CD Hairless mice compelling. It is just  confirmation of this initial study:  http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1.../5603603a.html
> 
> Lets be clear about some facts here.
> ...


 
Although some of this might make sense, lot of this is also pretty off base or very loosely tied together. don't have time right now to explain all of it, but ill address more later.  I have read some of Boldy's posts in the past, and although like swooping you have some understanding of AGA and are good at linking lots of articles and information, I don't find your ability to make sense of it all to be all that insightful.  Most of the stuff on cell senescence makes no sense as a counter argument to why this might work.  Cells go senescent (die) because of a lack of the proper proteins and growth factors.  IGF-1 is unlikely to completely revive dead hair cells, as there is scarring involved and many channels have been broken,  but delivering the proper factor at the proper intervals for people with thinning hair can probably prevent cells from senescing or turn around cells that are halfway there.  rogaine is used on cells that are dying as well, and the ways it releases certain chemicals turns this process around.  same with fin, some regrowth happens because cutting off the negative chemicals lets the cells be nourished and stop dying.  In this sense Im not sure what boldy's argument is.

True, the IGF-1 could be a less potent on human follicles than on mice, but that has not been proven yet.  you say that hairless mice are missing a mitogenic factor, and that human cells are not.  this is exactly what follicept is addressing. androgens are setting off a chain of reactions in people that cuts off the mitogenic factors in the follicle. it's the same problem, except the mice are genetically programmed NOT to ever grow hair, while balding humans can sort of grow hair but some of the mitogenic factors are being hampered.  Cell senescence is the end product of all aging and diseases really, but it is not "the cause" of AGA.  AGA is caused by genetic constructs that lead the androgen receptor to set off a chain of chemicals that in turn cause cells to die.  The point of follicept and other treatments is to halt this dying.  

b) As far as injections are concerned I'm really not sure that injecting growth factors into the scalp is the same as using follicept's vehicle.  I pretty sure Dr. Hsu has addressed this in the past.  While I definitely harbor some skepticism about just how important IGF-1 is to balding until it is used in humans, I'm not sure that even an injected study has ever been carried out for balding.  The fact that there are anecdotes of forum people indiscriminately injecting this stuff into the bloodstream and were unsuccessful,does not  guarantee that follicept won't work.  If anything the graph you posted shows that all these growth factors did indeed have an effect on hair growth.  I myself have a hunch that there might be better factors to use than IGF-1, or maybe a mix would be best, but this is definitely a good start, especially as related to inducing anagen (something that has been shown very clearly as something that IGF-1 does).  Dr. Hsu wants to start simple and see what happens.  He understands the science of this much better than I do and certainly much better than anyone else on here, and if he thinks its worth a shot then Im very interested.

c) as far as the in house trials, this is all nonsense. what company do you really expect to outsource their trials? They can trial this effectively and as simply/cheaply as possible, and involving a mass of crazy forum users is of no value in the initial stages.  No one owes you guys anything, and demanding follicept to do this or do that is not only unrealistic, but also indicative of an entitled attitude that belies the young age or psychological malfunction of a lot of forum users.  If their trials were to be botched it would not be hard to tell, and there has been no indication that these guys are anything but an upstanding crew.  And even if these guys were scammers,which they aren't, you can always NOT BUY.  If you know so much about hair loss or are so skeptical, you still have control of your own mind/pocketbook.  all follicept is on here to do is get some useful feedback and hopefully start building a customer base should their product work.  If they are a scam then so is every other company that sells anything to anyone.  everyone wants to build a good product and market it effectively.  but not all are as open and generous with their info as follicept has been, which is why its cool that there is a hair loss startup.  if you'd rather have only huge universities and big pharmas working on this, with all the interests that they have to represent, all the hurdles they have to jump through, etc, then you are all pretty dumb.  this grassroots action is good whether it works or not.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> Hey guys,
> 
> This post will contain facts mainly for informational purpose for the readers of this site, not to discourage the owners of this product or what so ever. I think that it is important to stay with both feet on the ground, and stay realistic. I respect the effort put into this project, and am not sure where it went wrong. Weather it was just an over enthusiastic entrepreneur who had some connections to a professor who didn't gasp the difference between mice and human, or lack of research, but it does not matter, still respect for the try.


 
Exhibit 1:


*ATM regulates insulin-like growth factor 1-secretory clusterin (IGF-1-sCLU) expression that protects cells against senescence.*

Abstract
Downstream factors that regulate the decision between senescence and cell death have not been elucidated. Cells undergo senescence through three pathways, replicative senescence (RS), stress-induced premature senescence (SIPS) and oncogene-induced senescence. Recent studies suggest that the ataxia telangiectasia mutant (ATM) kinase is not only a key protein mediating cellular responses to DNA damage, but also regulates cellular senescence induced by telomere end exposure (in RS) or persistent DNA damage (in SIPS). Here, we show that expression of secretory clusterin (sCLU), a known pro-survival extracellular chaperone, is transcriptionally up-regulated during both RS and SIPS, but not in oncogene-induced senescence, consistent with a DNA damage-inducible mechanism. We demonstrate that ATM plays an important role in insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) expression, that in turn, regulates downstream sCLU induction during senescence. Loss of ATM activity, either by genomic mutation (ATM-deficient fibroblasts from an ataxia telangiectasia patient) or by administration of a chemical inhibitor (AAI, an inhibitor of ATM and ATR), blocks IGF-1-sCLU expression in senescent cells. Downstream, sCLU induction during senescence is mediated by IGF-1R/MAPK/Egr-1 signaling, identical to its induction after DNA damage. In contrast, administration of an IGF-1 inhibitor caused apoptosis of senescent cells. Thus, IGF-1 signaling is required for survival, whereas sCLU appears to protect cells from premature senescence, as IMR-90 cells with sCLU knockdown undergo senescence faster than control cells. *Thus, the ATM-IGF-1-sCLU pathway protects cells from lethality and suspends senescence.*



Exhibit 2:

Insulin-like growth factor-1 regulates the SIRT1-p53 pathway in cellular senescence

Summary
Cellular senescence, which is known to halt proliferation of aged and stressed cells, plays a key role against cancer development and is also closely associated with organismal aging. While increased insulin-like growth factor (IGF) signaling induces cell proliferation, survival and cancer progression, disrupted IGF signaling is known to enhance longevity concomitantly with delay in aging processes. The molecular mechanisms involved in the regulation of aging by IGF signaling and whether IGF regulates cellular senescence are still poorly understood. In this study, we demonstrate that IGF-1 exerts a dual function in promoting cell proliferation as well as cellular senescence. *While acute IGF-1 exposure promotes cell proliferation and is opposed by p53, prolonged IGF-1 treatment induces premature cellular senescence in a p53-dependent manner.* We show that prolonged IGF-1 treatment inhibits SIRT1 deacetylase activity, resulting in increased p53 acetylation as well as p53 stabilization and activation, thus leading to premature cellular senescence. In addition, either expression of SIRT1 or inhibition of p53 prevented IGF-1-induced premature cellular senescence. Together, these findings suggest that p53 acts as a molecular switch in monitoring IGF-1-induced proliferation and premature senescence, and suggest a possible molecular connection involving IGF-1-SIRT1-p53 signaling in cellular senescence and aging.



Exhibit 3:

IGF-1 Enhances Expression of iPS Cell Reprogramming Factors and Telomerase activities in Human Dermal Fibroblasts: A potential Role for IGF-1 in Induction of Pluripotent Stem Cells and Antisenescence

Background: Reprogramming somatic cells into induced pluropotent stem cells (iPS) using transcription factors (Oct4, Sox2, Klf4 and c-myc) offers a novel approach for regenerative medicine. However, the iPS cell generation has several obstacles, including the poor efficiency of iPS reprogramming and frequent re-entry of iPS cells into the stage of senescence during passage. Insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) and its downstream phosphoinositide 3-kinase (PI3K) signaling pathway may maintain the proliferative potential of stem cells. This study was to test the effects of IGF-1 on iPS cell generation and senescence.

Conclusion:* IGF-1 may enhance expression of programming factors and telomerase activities in human dermal fibroblasts transduced into iPS cells, while inhibiting expression of the senescence-inducing protein p53.* The effects of IGF-1 may be mediated by the PI3 kinase/Akt pathway. Our data demonstrate that the novel biological effects of IGF-1 on iPS generation, and may allow development of an enhanced therapeutic option by employing iPS for treating cardiovascular diseases.



Exhibit 4:

Abstract
The accumulation of senescent stromal cells in aging tissue changes the local microenvironment from normal to a state similar to chronic inflammation. This inflammatory microenvironment can stimulate the proliferation of epithelial cells containing DNA mutations which can ultimately lead to cancer. Using geriatric skin as a model, we demonstrated that senescent fibroblasts also alter how epithelial keratinocytes respond to genotoxic stress, due to the silencing of IGF-1 expression in geriatric fibroblasts. These data indicate that in addition to promoting epithelial tumor growth, senescent fibroblasts also can promote carcinogenic initiation. We hypothesized that commonly used therapeutic stromal wounding therapies can reduce the percentage of senescent fibroblasts and consequently prevent the formation of keratinocytes proliferating with DNA mutations following acute genotoxic (UVB) stress. Sun-protected skin on the lower back of geriatric human volunteers was wounded by dermabrasion and the skin was allowed to heal for three months. In geriatric skin,* we found that dermabrasion wounding decreases the proportion of senescent fibroblasts found in geriatric dermis, increases the expression of IGF-1, and restores the appropriate UVB response to epidermal keratinocytes in geriatric skin.* Therefore, dermal rejuvenation therapies may play a significant role in preventing the initiation of skin cancer in geriatric patients.





Exhibit 5:

Bioactive IGF-1 release from collagenGAG scaffold to enhance cartilage repair in vitro


Abstract
Tissue engineering is a promising technique for cartilage repair. Toward this goal, a porous collagenglycosaminoglycan (CG) scaffold was loaded with different concentrations of insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and evaluated as a growth factor delivery device. The biological response was assessed by monitoring the amount of type II collagen and proteoglycan synthesised by the chondrocytes seeded within the scaffolds. IGF-1 release was dependent on the IGF-1 loading concentration used to adsorb IGF-1 onto the CG scaffolds and the amount of IGF-1 released into the media was highest at day 4. This initial IGF-1 release could be modelled using linear regression analysis. Osteoarthritic (OA) chondrocytes seeded within scaffolds containing adsorbed IGF-1 deposited decorin and type II collagen in a dose dependent manner and the highest type II collagen deposition was achieved via loading the scaffold with 50 μg/ml IGF-1. Cells seeded within the IGF-1 loaded scaffolds also deposited more extracellular matrix than the no growth factor control group thus the IGF-1 released from the scaffold remained bioactive and exerted an anabolic effect on OA chondrocytes. The effectiveness of adsorbing IGF-1 onto the scaffold may be due to protection of the molecule from proteolytic digestion allowing a more sustained release of IGF-1 over time compared to adding multiple doses of exogenous growth factor. *Incorporating IGF-1 into the CG scaffold provided an initial therapeutic burst release of IGF-1 which is beneficial in initiating ECM deposition and repair in this in vitro model and shows potential for developing this delivery device in vivo.*



Exhibit 6:

GW25-e4120 IGF-1 Inhibits Apoptosis of Vascular Smooth Muscle Cells Through PI3/Akt Pathway

*In this report, we show that the signaling cascade involved in IGF-1 protectes VSMC against Apop-1-induced apoptosis, while PDGF has no effect.* In addition, pretreatment of Apop-1 transfected VSMCs with phosphatidylinositol-3-kinase inhibitor wortmannin, or infection with an adenoviral construct expressing the dominant negative Akt gene (Adeno-dnAkt) blocked the cytoprotective effect of IGF-1, whereas the MEK inhibitor PD98059 had no effect. Conversely, infection with an adenoviral construct expressing the constitutively active Akt (Adeno-MyrAkt) gene, protected VSMC from apoptosis induced by Apop-1 even in the absence of IGF-1, suggesting that IGF-1 prevents VSMC apoptosis induced by Apop-1 through activation of the PI3K/Akt pathway. Furthermore, IGF-1 elevated phospho-Akt expression in Apop-1 transfected VSMCs and Apop-1 decreased phospho-Akt expression. Importantly, IGF-1 inhibited cytochrome c release from mitochondria and blocked activation of intrinsic initiator caspase-9 in Apop-1 transfected VSMCs




Exhibit 7: 



Abstract

Apoptosis and cell proliferation are two important cellular processes that determine the accumulation of pulmonary artery smooth muscle cells (PASMC) during pulmonary arterial hypertension (PAH). Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) is an endocrine and autocrine/paracrine growth factor that circulates at high levels in the plasma and is expressed in most cell types. IGF-1 has major effects on development, cell growth and differentiation, also tissue repair. Inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) has been shown to serve many vasoprotective roles in vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMCs) including inhibition of VSMC proliferation and migration and stimulation of endothelial cell growth. In this study, we investigated the involvement of iNOS in the process of IGF-1-induced inhibition of PASMC apoptosis. We also examined the role of p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) in the IGF-1-induced iNOS activation. Our results show that exogenous IGF-1 induced the up-regulation of iNOS in PASMC. Immunofluorescence of IGF-1 and iNOS showed a decreased immunostaining of both IGF-1 and iNOS in the cytoplasm and the perinucleus under serum deprivation condition. iNOS inhibition in PASMC in vitro markedly induced IGF-1-mediated anti-apoptosis as assessed by the cell viability measurement, Western blot, mitochondrial potential analysis and nuclear morphology determination. A p38 MAPK inhibitor blocked all the effects of IGF-1 on iNOS. *Our findings suggest that IGF-1 inhibits cells apoptosis in PASMC by activating the p38 MAPKiNOS transduction pathway. This mechanism may contribute to the accumulation of PASMC in early human PAH.*




Exhibit 9:



Myostatin, a TGF-β family member, is associated with inhibition of muscle growth and differentiation and might interact with the IGF-1 signaling pathway. Since IGF-1 is secreted at a bioactive level by adipose tissue-derived mesenchymal stem cells (ASCs), these cells (ASCs) provide a therapeutic option for Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy (DMD). But the protective effect of stem cell secreted IGF-1 on myoblast under high level of myostatin remains unclear. In the present study murine myoblasts were exposed to myostatin under presence of ASCs conditioned medium and investigated for proliferation and apoptosis. The protective effect of IGF-1 was further examined by using IGF-1 neutralizing and receptor antibodies as well as gene silencing RNAi technology. MyoD expression was detected to identify impact of IGF-1 on myoblasts differentiation when exposed to myostatin. *IGF-1 was accountable for 43.6% of the antiapoptotic impact and 48.8% for the proliferative effect of ASCs conditioned medium. Furthermore, IGF-1 restored mRNA and protein MyoD expression of myoblasts under risk*. Beside fusion and transdifferentiation the beneficial effect of ASCs is mediated by paracrine secreted cytokines, particularly IGF-1. The present study underlines the potential of ASCs as a therapeutic option for Duchenne muscular dystrophy and other dystrophic muscle diseases.



Exhibit 10:


Abstract
Objective
Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) increases the growth of cultured hair follicles and plays a role in regulating hair migration during the development of hair follicles in transgenic mice. However, the exogenous effect of IGF-1 on hair growth in wild-type mice has not been reported. In the present study, we examined whether IGF-1 was an important regulator of hair follicle growth in wide-type mice in vivo.

Design
C57BL/6 mice were injected with different concentrations of IGF-1 on dorsal skin. The treated tissues were analyzed by immunoassay methods for TGF-β1 and BrdU.

Results
Local injection of IGF-1 increased hair follicle number and prolonged the growing phase during the transition from anagen to telogen. Meanwhile, immunology analyses revealed that IGF-1 also stimulated the proliferation of follicle cells in anagen of the matrix and down regulated TGF-β1 expression in hair follicles.

Conclusions
*These observations suggest that IGF-1 is an effective stimulator of hair follicle development in wide-type mice in vivo and may be a promising drug candidate for baldness therapy.*


Exhibit 11:


Abstract
Reactive oxygen species (ROS)-induced oxidative stress increases in skeletal muscle with aging and decreases the viability of implanted cells. Type 1 insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) promotes the survival of skeletal muscle cells under oxidative stress. It is unknown whether IGF-1 protects muscle-derived stem cells (MDSCs) from oxidative stress. In this study, we genetically engineered rat MDSCs to overexpress IGF-1 and determined cell viability, apoptosis, and VEGF secretion under oxidative stress. Overexpression of IGF-1 prevented MDSCs from H2O2-induced caspase-dependent apoptotic cell death by upregulating the PI3K/AKT pathway, accompanied with an increase of NF-κB, p-NF-κB, Bcl-2, and VEGF, as well as a decrease of Bax. In contrast, pre-administration of picropodophyllinb, wortmannin, 1L-6-hydroxymethyl-chiro-inositol-2-((R)-2-O-methyl-3-O-octadecylcarbonate), or pyrrolidine-dithiocarbamate, specific inhibitors of IGF-1R, PI3K, AKT, and NF-κB, respectively, followed by treatment with H2O2, resulted in cell death of MDSCs. *Our data indicated that IGF-1 suppresses apoptosis and enhances the paracrine function of MDSCs under oxidative stress via enhancing IGF-1R/PI3K/AKT signaling*. Thus, IGF-1 gene-modified MDSCs present a potential application in the treatment of muscle wasting, such as urethra intrinsic sphincter deficiency.

----------


## sdsurfin

and none of what i said is a claim that follicept will definitely work. Again, I have no idea.  But the reasons that have been stated for it NOT to work are all at pretty badly thought out.   My biggest concern is that the death of HF cells hinges on several channels, including inflammatory processes, and I'm not sure IGF-1 is enough to offset/fix the other channels.  It really all depends on how much influence it has on hair growth in people.   Past studies have suggested in plays a large role, but without testing this with follicepts new vehicle, none of us can really say how successful/not it can be.  In short, unless you are a pro hair researcher, and as with any medical progress, just hang tight, shut up and wait.

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## serenemoon

Thanks for the explanation sdsurfin!! Makes sense.

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## nameless

@Boldy, The company's reason for not giving experimental samples to the forum members is reasonable and logical. The company's point is that it's risky and irresponsible to send out experimental medicines through the mail to people the company is many many miles away from, that the company has not conducted baseline workups on and have not been medically cleared for taking this experimental medicine. What do you think Merk would have said if you asked Merck to let forum members be in the original propecia studies through the via mail with no medical workups and no baseline established? What would Glaxo have said if you asked them to do the same with dutasteride? What if you had asked the same of Upjohn for the original Rogaine studies? It wouldn't happen Boldy. Responsible professional drug company personnel would reject that proposal. And by the way, the proponent of that idea is Arishi, and yes I mean the same Arishi who bashes Nigam for marketing cell-based experimental treatments to people before all of the kinks are worked out of cell-based hair loss treatments. So Arishi has a long history of bashing Dr. Nigam for doing exactly what Arishi is trying to pressure Follicept into doing here. 

Boldy, if I was Devon I would reject the idea too. It's risky and it's unprofessional. 

That having been said, I need a chance to read through your scientific points before I can comment on those issues. But just so you know, I am HIGHLY doubtful that Follicept will work. That aside, 

1. The arguments that the company has perpetrated a fraud are thus far unfounded. 

2. It is totally reasonable for the company to reject the idea of allowing forum members to test their product vial the mail. As a matter of fact, if the company did agree to do that then they would not be following industry protocol and they would be taking needless, irresponsible, and reckless risks. 

3. IGF-1 in a topical might get into the follicles better than IGF-1 injected because injected IGF-1 would likely shoot straight in and permeate the follicles directly in the path of injection only whereas topically applied IGF-1 could theoretically get into virtually all the follicles since the topical solution would be spread over the entire scalp. 

4. I also think that it's hard to imagine that IGF-1 alone can reverse hair loss as well or better than Rogaine. At minimum I think that they may need to add more growth factors.

5. I also have concerns about whether or not the company is using a potent enough dose of IGF-1. I get the sense that the dose is low.

6. I also have concerns because they are using e.coli IGF-1 rather than human IGF-1.

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## Keki

I wonder where are all those studies of igf-1 injected on human and their results, seems everybody is using increlex from ages but 0 proof, only anedoctal stuff from few user in bodybuilder forums or people who actually injected themself chinese stuff but 0 complete study on this argument, and it's very strange, my idea is people actually injected themself with real crap and actually no one on earth know what's the real effect of igf-1 on human scalp at this point

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## sdsurfin

Nice finds NeedHair Asap.  I will pass those on to Dr. Hsu.
Pretty much all of those abstracts bode very well for this treatment.  And as Dr. Hsu has told us, prolonged use of IGF-1 is probably bad for hair cells, but acute use may be great. Unlike a lot of people, I actually agree with follicept that while everything is possible, this actually has great promise. At the very least, it could be a stepping stone in the right direction, as we are now dealing with the most direct chemicals that control hair and cell fate.    

Also, that was a nice way to find backup evidence for what I just wrote to boldy, namely that IGF-1 works against senescence, and  that none of what he provided as evidence for follicept not working makes much sense when you're talking about direct causation.  IGF-1 does all kinds of things in the body and bloodstream, and works differently in different cells/locations.  I really do think that once follicept figures out exactly what the follicle needs and when it needs it, they will develop a good treatment(provided they stay interested).  we will see if they hit the nail on the head on the first try  :Wink:  

Also, it's been explained pretty thoroughly to us by trained scientists that e coli IGF is not any different for these purposes than human IGF.  It drives me crazy that people on here think they know more than someone who has dedicated their whole life to biology and who is highly qualified. Finding one abstract that says human IGF is different does not mean that the general scientific consensus is such in terms of using it effectively, or that it makes a difference in this situation.    

I have doubts about anything non stem-cell/cloning related working for hair loss at this point purely due to how complex balding is, but I hope I'm proven wrong.   it is possible that IGF -1 is not enough on its own, but the complete opposite might be true.  Sometimes simplicity is really the key, and a single compound can go a really long way.  we have already seen this with the blockage of the androgen receptor. If IGF-1 is as powerful at controlling anagen induction and other stuff as these papers suggest, then other growth factors might simply be unnecessary.

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## sdsurfin

> I wonder where are all those studies of igf-1 injected on human and their results, seems everybody is using increlex from ages but 0 proof, only anedoctal stuff from few user in bodybuilder forums or people who actually injected themself chinese stuff but 0 complete study on this argument, and it's very strange, my idea is people actually injected themself with real crap and actually no one on earth know what's the real effect of igf-1 on human scalp at this point


 
The studies simply have not been done.  No one has shown exactly how these bodybuilders of hair loss forum guys injected stuff or for how long or with what source materials, so it doesn't really mean much. Its also quite different to put IGF into your bloodstream than to spread it on your skin and have it seep into the follicles.  I can't imagine its easy to inject anything into the scalp in a way that efficiently reaches follicles, though i could be wrong about that.  anyway IGF-1 and other growth factors are not safe things to be injecting into your body at concentrations that can get enough of it to the HF, so its understandable that human studies have not been done. this is why follicept is doing something quite different.

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## Pelillos

> @devon,
> 
> what happened to mice 3 months post treatment? You didnt show that data in the presentation.
> Just curious. 
> 
> tnx and good luck!


 That mice are now following the Motorhead's Tour 2015.

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## bananana

> That mice are now following the Motorhead's Tour 2015.


 Probably a sarcastic comment, but can't say I understand what you meant.

I meant - did they continue to grow hair/fur or not?

tnx

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## NeedHairASAP

1. Wanting these guys to do out-of-house testing is obviously a legitimate desire.

The issue is this would cost $50k-$1M to have a contract research organization (CRO) to run a massive trial using follicept....

Obviously, from their perspective, if they can test it on a group of friends and family first... it saves them from spending a year or more and $50k-$1M testing something they have no clue will work. I just don't think we can hold follicept (as a company, not a product) up to the same standards as a billion dollar pharmaceutical company with a multi-million budget research department.

We should hold their product to the same standard as the billion dollar company's... but we need to be cognizant of that fact they just can't go to market in the same fashion as the billion dollar company can.... as a result we have to be extra skeptical (I repeat: skeptical. Not rude, nasty, speculative, defamatory, incendiary, etc.).

If they come back with good photos, and things look seemingly good enough, I'm happy to give it a try (and pay for it). I'll be pretty skeptical, so hopefully the photos are decent enough. 

Anybody who is still skeptical, can wait. Forum trials just don't ever work. Look at chlorine dioxide. That guy gave out 40 bottles (mostly confirmed by 40 posters), then maybe 3-4 actually posted results (that sucked). And honestly, if two random people online post that they got not results in a forum trial.... it doesn't mean that much to me. It's obviously not promising, but it isn't damning-- in my opinion.

Same with forum people injecting IGF-1... what was their protocol? To me, there is a good chance they probably f***d it up somewhere in the process, or didn't do it enough or any number of things.... I just don't get why people thinking one or two amateur anonymous forum guys getting no results (whether igf-1, CB, RU, etc. etc. etc.) automatically means the substance should be written off..... to me that is strange logic. 


2. My sense is that devon and crew don't want to spend a ton of time/money on follicept  if it doesn't actually beat minox (and beat it by a relatively significant margin)


3. They are doing trials now. And if the evidence they come back with sucks, I'm sure they'll be berated thoroughly... I think we can all agree with that. So, I don't see much reason (i.e. need) for our white knight (i.e. our lord and savior) Arashi... who doesn't notice that Devon is giving him as many answers as he can, and being as polite in the dialogue as possible whilst Arashi is a dickhead.

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## Pelillos

> Probably a sarcastic comment, but can't say I understand what you meant.
> 
> I meant - did they continue to grow hair/fur or not?
> 
> tnx


 It's an interesting question; I'd like to know too.

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## Swooping

Whoops.. Boldy just crushed follicept there. Great information. It is always a pleasure to read your posts.

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## Link

The use of IGF-1 in the body can result in dangerous adverse reactions. I wonder how great the chances are of getting it into the bloodstream by using Follicept, and how it could affect our health.

I understand IGF-1 is prohibited for professional athletes. They should probably not use Follicept.

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## joachim

> The use of IGF-1 in the body can result in dangerous adverse reactions. I wonder how great the chances are of getting it into the bloodstream by using Follicept, and how it could affect our health.
> 
> I understand IGF-1 is prohibited for professional athletes. They should probably not use Follicept.


 this was already adressed multiple times. the igf1 dose is so low (thus considered cosmetical) that even if the whole dose would go systemic (which it doesn't) it wouldn't be harmful at all. hence there will be no safety issues

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## Link

Thank you. I e-mailed the company and they told me the same.

However, professional athletes should be careful with Follicept. Even the slightest trace of IGF-1 in their bloodstream might be enough for them to be banned from their competition.

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## serenemoon

> Great, relevant question. This is why we are here. From Dr. Hsu:
> 
> This is an astute question! Maimonides is credited with the following teaching that I use to help my students not be afraid of not knowing the answer: "Teach thy tongue to say I do not know, and thou shalt progress." All scientific investigation begins with "Why..." or "How...," which implies "I do not know." It is also the inspiration to answer those questions. 
> 
> I don't know if it is an accurate statement that there is a "universal type of initial shedding common to all good therapies." What current therapies are considered to be "good?"
> 
> We won't know with certainty how pulse stimulation will affect "semi-terminal follicles" that will eventually lose the ability to grow a hair shaft as they transition to telogen. Perhaps with enough longitudinal follow-up data on those on Follicept, the answer will reveal itself.  
> 
> In the mouse study by Li et al 2014, a synchronized telogen was induced by application of a depilatory (well known property) in an 18-day study. "Semi-terminal follicles" in those with AGA in the thinning stage represent a population that are undergoing progressively shortened anagen that will eventually regress to telogen. However, they are not synchronized. Follicept may induce a new cycle of prolonged anagen in the population of "semi-terminal" follicles that are soonest to reach telogen marked by imminent hair loss. 
> ...


 +1

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## Keki

I wonder the interaction between a skin mole and igf-1 can this be totally safe? I have hundread of this imperfections

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## Spaniards

> That mice are now following the Motorhead's Tour 2015.


 Hilarious! Guess you are Spanish, aren´t you? Good to see you around  :Wink:  

The thing is it would be great to know the real answer, because it´s quite obvious that if the treatment had worked those mice would be training to become the next Kiss band. 

So, did they lose the hair? Do they still keep it? 

Thank you so much Devon, we are eager to read you again. Please bring us good news, we have waited for so long and now it seems you have found a cure.  

Greetings from Madrid! Remember you will always be welcomed here and trust me Mahou rocks better than Budweiser, which is also a good reason to pay us a visit whenever you can  :Wink:

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## serenemoon

> 2. My sense is that devon and crew don't want to spend a ton of time/money on follicept  if it doesn't actually beat minox (and beat it by a relatively significant margin)


 +1

This is the beautiful thing about Follicept going to Market. If they sell it, that means it REALLY works. Or else no point in competing with a massive company like UpJohn with billions of dollars for a product that gives only "rogaine-like" results.

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## IvanXproject

> I wonder the interaction between a skin mole and igf-1 can this be totally safe? I have hundread of this imperfections


 Why is this a concern? What are you basing it on?

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## Haircure

> +1
> 
> This is the beautiful thing about Follicept going to Market. If they sell it, that means it REALLY works. Or else no point in competing with a massive company like UpJohn with billions of dollars for a product that gives only "rogaine-like" results.


 Uhh so your saying that just because someone puts something on the market it instantly means it does it what it says it will? You've got to be kidding me. Snake oils run rampant throughout this industry and it does compete with traditional hair loss products because people are too desperate and want to try anything. Look at laser caps, those things are incredibly expensive and basically have 0 effectiveness. You will always see a new product coming out claiming to be better than the rest, but the fact remains is until we have hard evidence, and legitimate clinical trials (double blinding, controls) you can't believe anything these products claim.

There's a reason why the evidence based method is so widely regarded in the scientific community. You can't have hard evidence regarding the success of a treatment unless you meet those standards. I'm sorry but if all follicept is doing in regards to clinical trials is getting their employees to test it without any controls, any clinical supervision, background history, and any consistent tools for measuring any change in hair growth, than they obviously aren't legitimate in my books. I've only had hair-loss for a few years, but I've seen quite a few "breakthrough" treatments come and go, and there are always those who jump towards any treatment that gives them hope and promote it like it's the cure and are aggressive to any criticism a forum member makes.

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## serenemoon

> Uhh so your saying that just because someone puts something on the market it instantly means it does it what it says it will? You've got to be kidding me. Snake oils run rampant throughout this industry and it does compete with traditional hair loss products because people are too desperate and want to try anything. Look at laser caps, those things are incredibly expensive and basically have 0 effectiveness.* You will always see a new product coming out claiming to be better than the rest, but the fact remains is until we have hard evidence, and legitimate clinical trials (double blinding, controls) you can't believe anything these products claim.*
> 
> There's a reason why the evidence based method is so widely regarded in the scientific community. You can't have hard evidence regarding the success of a treatment unless you meet those standards.* I'm sorry but if all follicept is doing in regards to clinical trials is getting their employees to test it without any controls, any clinical supervision, background history, and any consistent tools for measuring any change in hair growth, than they obviously aren't legitimate in my books*. I've only had hair-loss for a few years, but I've seen quite a few "breakthrough" treatments come and go, and there are always those who jump towards any treatment that gives them hope and promote it like it's the cure and are aggressive to any criticism a forum member makes.


 I hear you, but you don't have all the info. You do know that after the in house employee trial they are going to be doing  a IRB approved, legitimate, placebo-controlled clinical study that is very thorough, right?  :Big Grin:  And that it will be published in peer review scientific journals, right?  :Big Grin:

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## Haircure

> I hear you, but you don't have all the info. You do know that after the in house employee trial they are going to be doing  a IRB approved, legitimate, placebo-controlled clinical study that is very thorough, right?  And that it will be published in peer review scientific journals, right?


 Nope, I wasn't aware. This thread is way to long and cluttered to really find anything of value. Thank you for that bit of info.

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## Keki

> Why is this a concern? What are you basing it on?


 I don't want to feed a moleskin with igf-1 if it can evolve in something worse

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## atilla123

what time first try today?

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## GSD

Today is d-day  :Smile:

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## serenemoon

WOOO!!! Follicept day everybody!!!

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## hellouser

> +1
> 
> This is the beautiful thing about Follicept going to Market. If they sell it, that means it REALLY works. Or else no point in competing with a massive company like UpJohn with billions of dollars for a product that gives only "rogaine-like" results.


 Terrible logic.

PRP is sold. It doesn't do anything.
Dr. Gho's HST method is sold; it too doesn't do anything.
I can name you a plethora of snake oil products are sold and don't work.

Follicept could turn out to be a giant flop and still sell, playing off the desperation of guys like you that just WANT to believe in a product.

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## luca10

:Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

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## IvanXproject

> I don't want to feed a moleskin with igf-1 if it can evolve in something worse


 I do understand what you are saying, but are you basing it on a scientific study or something? Is IGF-1 known to stimulate or "feed" skin moles?

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## NeedHairASAP

> Uhh so your saying that just because someone puts something on the market it instantly means it does it what it says it will? You've got to be kidding me. Snake oils run rampant throughout this industry and it does compete with traditional hair loss products because people are too desperate and want to try anything. Look at laser caps, those things are incredibly expensive and basically have 0 effectiveness. You will always see a new product coming out claiming to be better than the rest, but the fact remains is until we have hard evidence, and legitimate clinical trials (double blinding, controls) you can't believe anything these products claim.
> 
> There's a reason why the evidence based method is so widely regarded in the scientific community. You can't have hard evidence regarding the success of a treatment unless you meet those standards. I'm sorry but if all follicept is doing in regards to clinical trials is getting their employees to test it without any controls, any clinical supervision, background history, and any consistent tools for measuring any change in hair growth, than they obviously aren't legitimate in my books. I've only had hair-loss for a few years, but I've seen quite a few "breakthrough" treatments come and go, and there are always those who jump towards any treatment that gives them hope and promote it like it's the cure and are aggressive to any criticism a forum member makes.


 I think he's saying that the "vibe" he gets from follicept thus far is that they would rather spend their time elsewhere (diabetes, etc) if they don't have a product with significant potential.

In other words, follicept comes across as people interested in investing their time trying to make billions--- not trying to make a quick $50k on a scam... we're dealing with people who could probably go get jobs paying 80k or 100k+ easily... so short-term scamming isn't as attractive as say, a poor person from india with no employment prospects. 

Obviously nobody is saying that in all curcumstances where a product is released that it automatically works.. nor are we saying that is the specific case for follicept... only that if you were to ask me my general "feeling" given information thus far, I would give you the above answer.

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## Keki

> I do understand what you are saying, but are you basing it on a scientific study or something? Is IGF-1 known to stimulate or "feed" skin moles?


 A random study, just the first one in google
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8720982 

 IGF-I receptor was found to be widely expressed by the cell surface of the nevus cells.
 the IGF-I receptor is expressed by all nevus cells, irrespective of their proliferative status. 

we should ask to dr hso, he studied cancer so who better then him, i don't think it's dangerous but  we should ask them, you know my concern is that they said with their vehicle they only need 6 unit of insulin instead of hundreads with injections for the same effect, i want to know if a mole covered with their vehicle can abosorb enough igf to proliferate even is it was "stable" before, i have hundreads of moleskin and most likely i have some of those covered by hairs in my scalp, and some others are big enough that i should let a doc check me, i never did beacuse they are "stable" and never changed after puberty, dunno with a sprint of igf if i should be concerned

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## serenemoon

Devon, are you applying 1 ppm or 10 ppm on your scalp? Thanks!!

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## Jagger

And since we probably won't see results, good or bad, for a few weeks or so, I have a different question for Devon?

How does the gel feel? I hope it's minty XD

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## IvanXproject

> A random study, just the first one in google
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8720982 
> 
>  IGF-I receptor was found to be widely expressed by the cell surface of the nevus cells.
>  the IGF-I receptor is expressed by all nevus cells, irrespective of their proliferative status. 
> 
> we should ask to dr hso, he studied cancer so who better then him, i don't think it's dangerous but  we should ask them, you know my concern is that they said with their vehicle they only need 6 unit of insulin instead of hundreads with injections for the same effect, i want to know if a mole covered with their vehicle can abosorb enough igf to proliferate even is it was "stable" before, i have hundreads of moleskin and most likely i have some of those covered by hairs in my scalp, and some others are big enough that i should let a doc check me, i never did beacuse they are "stable" and never changed after puberty, dunno with a sprint of igf if i should be concerned


 Let us hope that Follicept's IGF-1 doses are so small that it doesn't really matter. And yes, we should ask Dr. Hsu about this

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## GSD

Our heroes!!!

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## atilla123

> Our heroes!!!


 +1

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## NOhairNOlife

> I scrambled through my headphones at work in a frantic manner just to watch this video discreetly. And my colleagues were wondering why I was smiling so widely at some guy rubbing gel all over his head.. hahaha! Can't wait to hear from you Devon!! 
> 
> And btw, which is the best medium to get the most updated news from you guys?


 Lmfao... I did the exact same thing.

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## Borealis

Just wanted to pitch in and say a massive thank you to Devon and the other members of the team. Even if this comes to nothing, I personally have thoroughly enjoyed the way you've interacted with the community and I think you've conducted yourself very well. I'm from the UK so I won't be one of the first to enjoy this if it works, but I've just got back from an exam and seeing this video has brightened my day.

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## potato1987

Thanks Devon, Best of luck to you and the team! I for one am glad that there is some hope!

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## noquierosercalvo

Oh my god, this is happening for real, im so hyped, hope this dont fail...

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## bhobho

Thank you very much devon. You could ask help to spread the gel  :Wink:

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## serenemoon

> Terrible logic.
> 
> PRP is sold. It doesn't do anything.
> Dr. Gho's HST method is sold; it too doesn't do anything.
> I can name you a plethora of snake oil products are sold and don't work.
> 
> Follicept could turn out to be a giant flop and still sell, playing off the desperation of guys like you that just WANT to believe in a product.


 Right. But the company's goal is not to make a couple of thousand. Their goal is to come up with something AMAZING, make a LOT of money and shoot that money over to running insulin patch trials which will cost them a huge amount (and also serve underserved regions of the world). They won't make enough to run FDA approved trials with a scam. Even if they rip off the most desperate of us, they won't be able to keep it up forever in order to make enough.

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## ghostrider

Hello Devon may I ask why your team went for a gel instead ointment

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## BoSox

I wish I just had a bald spot. I feel like having diffuse thinning leaves me no hope. Lord please let follicept work  :Frown:

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## NeedHairASAP

> I wish I just had a bald spot. I feel like having diffuse thinning leaves me no hope. Lord please let follicept work


 I feel like the worst part of balding is bald sports... and receding hairline..... which ruin the framing of your face. I find most people with diffuse thinging look "fine"... mainly because they're face is still framed well-enough.

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## Winston

> Hello Devon may I ask why your team went for a gel instead ointment


 This discussion has run its course. Anyone who would like to continue to receive updates and join in on a discussion concerning this potential treatment should go to the company's website.

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