# Other Discussions > Hair Loss Rants >  Scorpion was basically right

## 25 going on 65

I hate to say it but it has been on my mind non stop: appearance is the biggest advantage a guy can have in life. We focus all the time on how society expects women to look good & treats them differently if they do not....yet for some reason it is almost taboo to acknowledge how it works both ways.
What you want to do as a male is maximize your appearance to appeal to the broadest # of women possible. I am 100% serious. This is not just about getting girls: this will get you jobs you are not qualified for, better customer service as a consumer, even free crap that people would not otherwise buy you

We are taught growing up that looks do not matter, also that the important things are brains, personality, hard work. At various times I have bought into this myself, but holy hell does real life experience disprove it. In fact it is pretty much bullsh*t dictated by marketing executives, education admins, politicians & other professions dominated by fat bald guys
The universe is cold, indifferent & twisted. If you want to get ahead you need to disregard conventions and game the system. This is how you do it.

PS- MPB is just 1 of many possible enemies of living this lifestyle, but it is a HUGE one. Unless you have an ideal look for a shaved head, it is not acceptable to "let nature run its course." Do whatever you must....drugs, surgery, even a piece if it gets that far. This gene is trying to erase you and it needs to be smothered/strangled/stomped out by any means necessary.
What was it Scorpion used to say? Something like: "MPB BROTHERS UNITE!"

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## 25 going on 65

This was actually meant for the Off Topic forum though.
Bye

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## Tracy C

> Scorpion was basically right


 No he wasnt.  Not even close.  The problem many of these young guys is that they are chronic butt holes.  Their hair loss has absolutely nothing do with why they cant get girls, or a good job or whatever.  Its because they are such big huge butt holes.  Many of them are young guys with minimal loss.  Even with Norwood 1 hairlines they would still be big huge chronic butt holes and they still would not be able to get anywhere in their lives  because nobody wants another butt hole in their life.

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## ChrisM

> No he wasnt.  Not even close.  The problem many of these young guys is that they are chronic butt holes.  Their hair loss has absolutely nothing do with why they cant get girls, or a good job or whatever.  Its because they are such big huge butt holes.  Many of them are young guys with minimal loss.  Even with Norwood 1 hairlines they would still be big huge chronic butt holes and they still would not be able to get anywhere in their lives  because nobody wants another butt hole in their life.


 Amen.

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## BigThinker

Well, he's right that hair matters for our physical appearance.  The degree to which he thought hair mattered was pretty absurd though.

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## DepressedByHairLoss

> Well, he's right that hair matters for our physical appearance.  The degree to which he thought hair mattered was pretty absurd though.


 You're right.  Hair absolutely matters for our physical appearance yet guys on here who absolutely flip out when they are an NW 1.5 are a bit crazy.

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## adam k

OP spot on. You are aware. I have known Scorpion for a long time from another forum where he used to preach this and he produced a whole theory about this. It is sad but it is a reality.

Hair loss makes people the way they are. The more I lose my hair the more bitter and resentful I become though I try hard not to.

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## Tracy C

Scorpion, like many others in this forum as well as other hair loss forums, is dead wrong.  Ya'll are so dead wrong that you are unable to get your minds right.  That is what is really sad.

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## 25 going on 65

> No he wasnt.  Not even close.  The problem many of these young guys is that they are chronic butt holes.  Their hair loss has absolutely nothing do with why they cant get girls, or a good job or whatever.  Its because they are such big huge butt holes.  Many of them are young guys with minimal loss.  Even with Norwood 1 hairlines they would still be big huge chronic butt holes and they still would not be able to get anywhere in their lives  because nobody wants another butt hole in their life.


 Tracy I like you as a poster, but as a woman you can not act like you have no idea what I am saying. Yes of course being a jerk will handicap someone in many social situations. but given equal behavior, goodlooking guys have an unbelievable advantage over plain or unattractive guys

Someone liking how you look is the ultimate cheat in life. When a woman gets neurochem rushes just from looking at your face, all your interactions with her become colored by that....the stuff you can get away with in this situation is insane. This is not just about sex or dating. It is about the work place & almost any other social situation that involves both genders
That is the point of my "rant" pretty much. Obviously no 1 look appeals to everyone, but having the broadest visual appeal possible is THE basic platform to living the good life. Literally everything else social becomes 10x easier if you have that




> Well, he's right that hair matters for our physical appearance. The degree to which he thought hair mattered was pretty absurd though.


 Admittedly he had some unrealistic ideas eg "NW1 or death." There are guys who are very goodlooking even w/ a NW3 (depends on skullshape, facial features, hairstyle of course)
However only a select few have the bone structure to buzz/shave their heads, so NW3 is the absolute cutoff I would say, & for most guys it is more like NW2ish. Everyone else should be medicating and the NW4+'s should be looking at hair transplants or pieces to get back in the game




> OP spot on. You are aware. I have known Scorpion for a long time from another forum where he used to preach this and he produced a whole theory about this. It is sad but it is a reality.
> 
> Hair loss makes people the way they are. The more I lose my hair the more bitter and resentful I become though I try hard not to.


 Yes diffuse loss completely screwed my life for a couple of years. It is very normal to be bitter/resentful if you have MPB in your 20s, even your 30s tbh.

Good luck to you dude. What treatments are you on?

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## adam k

> Yes diffuse loss completely screwed my life for a couple of years. It is very normal to be bitter/resentful if you have MPB in your 20s, even your 30s tbh.
> 
> Good luck to you dude. What treatments are you on?


 I'm just like you bro. I'm in my early twenties and diffuse thinning and a NW2. I also have a weird head shape of peace and unity. Its reaching the point where I can't hide it anymore. I refuse to take Fin (I can write a whole essay about this) and I can't take minoxidil for medical reasons. This leaves me with just Niz 2&#37; which does f all. I'm hoping dermarolling with CB 03 01 is a breakthrough for me to make it. I want to make it bro, I hope we all do. I pray everyday that we all make it.

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## fred970

I read:

I'm NW2 in my early twenties and think my life is over.
I still have my hair and I think I know my head shape without having actually seen it.
I can't take minox because I read on the forums that it causes wrinkles.

Hair loss won't prevent you from living a fulfilling life or from dating. Tracy is the only one right here.

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## adam k

> I read:
> 
> I'm NW2 in my early twenties and think my life is over.
> I still have my hair and I think I know my head shape without having actually seen it.
> I can't take minox because I read on the forums that it causes wrinkles.
> 
> Hair loss won't prevent you from living a fulfilling life or from dating. Tracy is the only one right here.


 Oh bro you have it so wrong.

Im a NW2 now heading to a NW6 before 30
I have seen my head shape as I have shaved it a few times before even with a blade and it was bad.
I can't take Minox because of a heart condition that I have. I have been on Minox for a year because I thought **** it and the outcome was bad.

See OPs original post for your last comment. I pray that you make it also.

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## 25 going on 65

> I'm just like you bro. I'm in my early twenties and diffuse thinning and a NW2. I also have a weird head shape of peace and unity. Its reaching the point where I can't hide it anymore. I refuse to take Fin (I can write a whole essay about this) and I can't take minoxidil for medical reasons. This leaves me with just Niz 2% which does f all. I'm hoping dermarolling with CB 03 01 is a breakthrough for me to make it. I want to make it bro, I hope we all do. I pray everyday that we all make it.


 Dude I understand your concerns but you want to get on fin at the least. Every antiandrogen treatment besides dut/fin is a crap shoot. If you want to experiment it needs to be against a background of proven meds (keto 2% is solid, but not enough by itself as you have already said)

Also you are a diffuse thinner, you will probably respond well to meds. In fact a sweet response to fin+keto was the ONLY thing that got my life back on track. Benzos, antidepressants, therapy could not come close.




> Hair loss won't prevent you from living a fulfilling life or from dating.


 It can definitely hinder those things, especially if you are under 40

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## fred970

It can hinder those things you're right, but keep in mind that it will be your choice.

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## BigThinker

> I read:
> 
> I'm NW2 in my early twenties and think my life is over.
> I still have my hair and I think I know my head shape without having actually seen it.
> I can't take minox because I read on the forums that it causes wrinkles.
> 
> Hair loss won't prevent you from living a fulfilling life or from dating. Tracy is the only one right here.


 I buzzed my head when I was 16 and had two people explicitly tell me my head shape was weird.  I remember not cutting my hair for almost two years after that, and being so happy I could hide my head shape.

Life isn't over when you go bald, even if you're young.  But it really sucks and affects your appearance - bottom line.  Being bald and having hair are *not* the same.  If it were, people wouldn't spend thousands of dollars trying to hide it.  I mean it isn't even debatable really.




> It can hinder those things you're right, but keep in mind that it will be your choice.


 Now you're just being delusional.  You *really* think going bald in your early twenties won't affect which girls like you, and to what degree they do so?

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## fred970

I'll reply to that with a picture of my hair. Remember that I am 23 years old.

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## 25 going on 65

> Now you're just being delusional.  You *really* think going bald in your early twenties won't affect which girls like you, and to what degree they do so?


 Yeah this is the problem. It can be an issue for some women right through their 30s or even beyond.

A few NW levels can be the difference between taking a girl home & watching her run back to her friends giggling. Some clubs and bars can be like high school




> I'll reply to that with a picture of my hair. Remember that I am 23 years old.


 Hard to tell from that 1 picture but your skullshape actually looks pretty solid. Consider yourself lucky because most of us do not get that.

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## BigThinker

> I'll reply to that with a picture of my hair. Remember that I am 23 years old.


 Dude, you have a great head shape.  I would trade so fast.

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## Tracy C

> I'm NW2 in my early twenties and think my life is over.


 Many adult men are Norwood III and that does not stop them from living a full and happy life.  Norwood II is nothing unless you are transgendered and plan to transition to female someday.






> I can't take minox because I read on the forums that it causes wrinkles.


 This is largely fear mongering.  Many women need to use Minoxidil.  If this actually was a common side effect women would never touch the stuff - or even go anywhere near it.






> Hair loss won't prevent you from living a fulfilling life or from dating.


 Men have been living long happy fulfilling lives for thousands of years in spite of their hair loss.  It has been done, I can still be done and it will continue to be done.

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## adam k

> I'll reply to that with a picture of my hair. Remember that I am 23 years old.


 Karl Pilkington is that you?

You have a good head shape.

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## Tracy C

> I'll reply to that with a picture of my hair. Remember that I am 23 years old.


 You look recoverable.  Being so young dramatically increases your chances of recovering some lost hair.  Though you are not likely to get back all you have lost - and it will take a pretty long time.

Are you treating it?  If you are using the FDA approved treatments, you will likely know how much you can recover after about 18 months of treatment.

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## fred970

I've been using minoxidil since I was 20. Yes it should be worse than that. I can't take finasteride (I have had gynecomastia surgery 9 months ago) and I have my first FUE scheduled in February.

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## 25 going on 65

> I've been using minoxidil since I was 20. Yes it should be worse than that. I can't take finasteride (I have had gynecomastia surgery 9 months ago) and I have my first FUE scheduled in February.


 FUE without fin is risky. Have you considered taking fin with estrogen blockers?

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## adam k

> FUE without fin is risky. Have you considered taking fin with estrogen blockers?


 You do NOT want to be on aromatase inhibitors or SERMS. Even those guys on a cycle take it as much as is needed and get the f off them. Taking Fin is a lifelong commitment and you SHOULD NOT be taking AIs or SERMS long term.

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## 25 going on 65

> You do NOT want to be on aromatase inhibitors or SERMS. Even those guys on a cycle take it as much as is needed and get the f off them. Taking Fin is a lifelong commitment and you SHOULD NOT be taking AIs or SERMS long term.


 Unfortunate.
Alternatives?

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## Assemblage23

> Unfortunate.
> Alternatives?


 RU but it's a hassle man. I'd do it if I couldnt take fin.

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## Dan26

> RU but it's a hassle man. I'd do it if I couldnt take fin.


 Not that big of a hassel especially if you use liquid minox. Just chuck er in there!

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## Coke

Having had a horeshoe by the time I was your age I would completely disagree. Women are vain. Extremely vain. Much more so than men. You will learn this as you grow older and become wiser.




> I read:
> 
> Hair loss won't prevent you from living a fulfilling life or from dating. Tracy is the only one right here.

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## drybone

> Having had a horeshoe by the time I was your age I would completely disagree. Women are vain. Extremely vain. Much more so than men. You will learn this as you grow older and become wiser.


 

We all want power and control. To whatever degree that makes us comfortable. It comes in various forms but the most productive for men is what will make you desirable to women and what will make you respected and even envied by other men.

The same is in reverse for women.

Height, muscle tone body fat, the way we dress and our careers go a long way.  So does a full head of hair. These are the main ones women tend to screen us on. They cant demand we drop our pants or they would do that too. 

So we get judged on these superficial qualities right away. We cant even get our foot in the door unless we pass this test. 

Then the things that really matter in our lives take over. Our belief system. Our life goals . Our ability to care for others. Etc........

So Tracy is right that if we are just decent guys,shower and have a job, we will get laid and be able to mate.

The problem is that the women we attract based on those characteristics alone may not be the ones we want. We may want a wider selection than that.Same goes for the ladies. They bend over backwards in a never ending pursuit to become as pretty as possible and desirable as possible to men. 

The more men they attract, the more other women will envy them and invariably have to suck up to them. They spend BILLIONS of dollars per year in this never ending pursuit. 

And spend all their time DENYING that they do it.  :Big Grin:  

Yet, I am sure most of us have dated women like this, and they utterly ruined it by being complete biotches . This made them useless to us. Regardless of how gorgeous they were.  :Frown: 

So here is what i propose. 

Be as good looking as we can on the outside. Spare no expense. If this means propecia, minox , toppik , dermatch and hair transplants, so be it.

If it means hair toppers, wigs , systems or the hair tattoo , more power to you.  :Smile: 

But Tracys point is undeniable. You can have all this and if you are a butt hole, you wasted your entire effort. So make sure we are great people on the inside too.

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## 25 going on 65

> Someone liking how you look is the ultimate cheat in life. *When a woman gets neurochem rushes just from looking at your face, all your interactions with her become colored by that*....the stuff you can get away with in this situation is insane.


 This is the most legitimate thing I have ever posted on this forum.


This is what we are fighting for

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Many adult men are Norwood III and that does not stop them from living a full and happy life.  Norwood II is nothing unless you are transgendered and plan to transition to female someday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is largely fear mongering.  Many women need to use Minoxidil.  If this actually was a common side effect women would never touch the stuff - or even go anywhere near it.
> 
> 
> ...


 Tracy doesn't seem to realise that only because men lose hair does not make it ok or acceptable.

My looks are definently not as good as they were when I had no hairloss. Actually, I had much more female attention then, yet I am a much better dresser now.

I was also a lot more photogenic as my forehead was less longated.

I remember when I was dating my ex, she used to make remarks about my hair looking weird at times. I used to shrug it off. Little did she know that recession meant it wasn't framing my face properly.

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## Dan26

yeahyeahyeah take some serious comfort in the fact you will likely never be identified as a bald/balding man in your life

Yes going from nw0-nw2 can negatively effect your looks...But ultimately the anxiety of MPB progression and actually becoming a 'balding/bald' guy is on some next level compared to what your going through.

You could easily get an HT if you ever creeped to NW3 and you'd be fine...future loss, if any, you would not need to worry about by the time it happens, unless you are destined for nw5 in the next decade..and even then youd prob still be fine

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## yeahyeahyeah

> yeahyeahyeah take some serious comfort in the fact you will likely never be identified as a bald/balding man in your life
> 
> Yes going from nw0-nw2 can negatively effect your looks...But ultimately the anxiety of MPB progression and actually becoming a 'balding/bald' guy is on some next level compared to what your going through.
> 
> You could easily get an HT if you ever creeped to NW3 and you'd be fine...future loss, if any, you would not need to worry about by the time it happens, unless you are destined for nw5 in the next decade..and even then youd prob still be fine


 I hope you are right dan.

I am watching histogen very closely, once I can see it is about to hit the market I will probably get a HT to completely fix my hairline.

It is causing me anxiety because often when I am out with my friends, i have heard them talk about other guys and go 'oh he is going bald, is not sexy anymore and looking old'

This is why I don't want to be a high Norwood, they get ridiculed.

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## Dan26

True true. I would really try and get rid of the anxiety you have over your hair at this point, and focus on other things. Especially because in your case, realistically, the future is bright and you can likely have the hair you want in due time.

I mean really the only way things could turn out bad for you is if CB, histogen and replicel all fail miserably lol...I think the odds are in our favor that atleast one of those will perform on par with fin and in your case maintain enough hair to have a nice dense HT  :Wink: 

then theres possibilites of donor regeneration, team tokyo way down the road etc

just make a lot of money bro and be ready for the day you put this curse to rest once and for all

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## yeahyeahyeah

> True true. I would really try and get rid of the anxiety you have over your hair at this point, and focus on other things. Especially because in your case, realistically, the future is bright and you can likely have the hair you want in due time.
> 
> I mean really the only way things could turn out bad for you is if CB, histogen and replicel all fail miserably lol...I think the odds are in our favor that atleast one of those will perform on par with fin and in your case maintain enough hair to have a nice dense HT 
> 
> then theres possibilites of donor regeneration, team tokyo way down the road etc
> 
> just make a lot of money bro and be ready for the day you put this curse to rest once and for all


 Thanks bro, you have helped me to become positive. 

Yeah, the anxiety is a killer tbh. When my hair grows it starts looking terrible so I need regular cuts (Every 2 weeks)

I guess the other good thing is, my older brother by a year hair is quite stable and has a similar hairloss pattern (he is 28).

I am really hopng HSC gets released by 2015 when I am 30. 25 going onto 65 is using fin, but it sounds like it isnt working that great from him at the cost of messing with his hormones.

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## 25 going on 65

> 25 going onto 65 is using fin, but it sounds like it isnt working that great from him at the cost of messing with his hormones.


 Fin worked great for me. I started dut in Feb because I was greedy for regrowth. Instead I had a shed & it has not recovered
I can still style my hair but there is pretty much no room for error now. I have definitely gotten worse since my peak results on fin. Even now 9 months after starting dut, I will shed like f*cking crazy on some days

For some reason a lot of anecdotes are like this for guys switching from fin to dut....in hindsight I think just starting on dut might be best (skip the fin)
However it is definitely worth messing with your hormones, because a healthy endocrine system is useless w/o good hair

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Fin worked great for me. I started dut in Feb because I was greedy for regrowth. Instead I had a shed & it has not recovered
> I can still style my hair but there is pretty much no room for error now. I have definitely gotten worse since my peak results on fin. Even now 9 months after starting dut, I will shed like f*cking crazy on some days
> 
> For some reason a lot of anecdotes are like this for guys switching from fin to dut....in hindsight I think just starting on dut might be best (skip the fin)
> However it is definitely worth messing with your hormones, because a healthy endocrine system is useless w/o good hair


 I remember when I first got into this, I tried revita shampoo. Frontal part of my hairline is now thinner. I went through a shed, never recovered.

Earlier this year, I tried Nizarol, right side of my scalp is slightly thinner. Due to this, I am forced now to keep my hair shorter, when it grows out, my hair looks uneven.

Everywhere else is thick. But my days of longer hair are over.

What I am trying to say, how do you know fin didn't cause premature thinning?

I am on no meds atm, and my hair is pretty stable.

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## Dan26

25g65 are you still taking fin with your dut?

Theres no guarentee dut will yeild better results. I personally think dut is best for those who do NOT respond to fin well.

Actually if you look at the trial results from fin and dut and compare, you will think on the surface dut is much superior based on haircount, but in reaility dut just gave FASTER results than fin. (if you look at peak haircounts in the longer term dut was better but not by a whole lot)

25 I'd expect for you that your dut journey will be similar to your fin jouurney...very slow  but hopefully moderate improvements. You said your fin results peaked at 18 months correct?

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## 25 going on 65

> I remember when I first got into this, I tried revita shampoo. Frontal part of my hairline is now thinner. I went through a shed, never recovered.
> 
> Earlier this year, I tried Nizarol, right side of my scalp is slightly thinner. Due to this, I am forced now to keep my hair shorter, when it grows out, my hair looks uneven.
> 
> Everywhere else is thick. But my days of longer hair are over.
> 
> What I am trying to say, how do you know fin didn't cause premature thinning?
> 
> I am on no meds atm, and my hair is pretty stable.


 I know fin did not cause premature thinning because my hair got thicker on it. I responded well




> 25g65 are you still taking fin with your dut?
> 
> Theres no guarentee dut will yeild better results. I personally think dut is best for those who do NOT respond to fin well.
> 
> Actually if you look at the trial results from fin and dut and compare, you will think on the surface dut is much superior based on haircount, but in reaility dut just gave FASTER results than fin. (if you look at peak haircounts in the longer term dut was better but not by a whole lot)
> 
> 25 I'd expect for you that your dut journey will be similar to your fin jouurney...very slow but hopefully moderate improvements. You said your fin results peaked at 18 months correct?


 I dropped fin from my regimen last month. Do you think this was a bad idea?
& my peak results on fin were around month 14-15 I think. However I do not remember having a significant shed on fin like I have on dut

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## Dan26

hmm welll to be honest taking fin while on dut is a waste of money....if your skepticle of your dut source then i can see why remaining on fin may be wise

but aslong as ur taking legit dut it shouldnt matter if you drop fin

are you on minox or anything else?

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## 25 going on 65

> hmm welll to be honest taking fin while on dut is a waste of money....if your skepticle of your dut source then i can see why remaining on fin may be wise
> 
> but aslong as ur taking legit dut it shouldnt matter if you drop fin
> 
> are you on minox or anything else?


 Well I am not sure about the dut I get from inhouse, but the other .5mg daily is Avodart from a legitimate pharmacy

I use 2% keto shampoo every 3 days. Not minox though

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## Dan26

ahh ok

personally i think you should add minox man

if u started minox years ago and were only an average responder you would likely be in a better place now

im pissed i didn't start treamtnet earlier but once my hair got bad enough i said what the hell may as well throw the kitchen sink for all i know i respond well, worst case is i dont and i lose what i would have lost anyways

the only risk with minox is massive shed which will come back, contact dermatis from vehicle, being actually allergic to minox, or ofcourse sides

it makes anagen phase way longer so in the long term it is nice insurance...it buys you time, no doubt about it

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## 25 going on 65

> ahh ok
> 
> personally i think you should add minox man
> 
> if u started minox years ago and were only an average responder you would likely be in a better place now
> 
> im pissed i didn't start treamtnet earlier but once my hair got bad enough i said what the hell may as well throw the kitchen sink for all i know i respond well, worst case is i dont and i lose what i would have lost anyways
> 
> the only risk with minox is massive shed which will come back, contact dermatis from vehicle, being actually allergic to minox, or ofcourse sides
> ...


 I did try Kirkland liquid minox a couple years ago or something like that. I think I was allergic, my skin on my scalp/face got very irritated. However PatientlyWaiting said he thought it was the vehicle, recommended switching to the foam instead

I must admit the stories of facial aging scare me though. The only side effects that scare me about any hair loss treatments are cosmetic. Have you heard anything about this?

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## Dan26

well its possible just as ED is on fin, but not likely

try the foam, if u get sides quit

and if ur worried about long term effects start using retin-a under eyes, forehead wrinkles, laughing lines etc as a pre-emptive move

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## drybone

> I did try Kirkland liquid minox a couple years ago or something like that. I think I was allergic, my skin on my scalp/face got very irritated. However PatientlyWaiting said he thought it was the vehicle, recommended switching to the foam instead
> 
> I must admit the stories of facial aging scare me though. The only side effects that scare me about any hair loss treatments are cosmetic. Have you heard anything about this?


 I was thinking about taking the plunge on the kirkland minox. If there are no sides does it really refurbish the hair follicles?  :Confused:

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