# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Histogen's FINAL Phase I/IIa Results (2013)

## Desmond84

Hey guys, 

Histogen has finally published the results of their 12 month Phase I/IIa results. Here's the link:

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/ii..._hsc_final.pdf

There's a lot of information which is provided and requires extensive discussion.

*1) Duration of Efficacy:* Although the patients remained above baseline at the 48 week follow-up, the effects started to wear off by that point: &#37; Change from baseline: 19% (Week 12) compared to 12% (Week 36). This means that patients will need booster shots at least ONCE A YEAR. 

_Also, isn't it odd how they haven't provided data on % change from baseline for the 48th week even though they did measure it! (Food for thought)_

*2) Total Hair count in the Temporal Region* (temples) increased only by 2.5% at the 48 week follow-up.

*3) Therapeutic Window:* They found a direct relationship between dose and possible toxicity (Haemoglobin count). Therefore, only so many mL of HSC can be injected at a given session. Otherwise, your Haemoglobin levels may drop and lead to anaemia and other related conditions. This is very important, as it means you cannot get Histogen injected all over your scalp in a single session... HSC will be simply used in your most problematic areas to give you that extra boost in hair density. 

*4) Safety:* using only 8 shots of HSC lead to no abnormal parameters in trial subjects. Furthermore, all reported side effects were mild and transient, which is a big plus.

----------


## john2399

Does it matter that the patients were 40+ and thats why the effects wore off ?

----------


## Desmond84

I doubt it...if that was the case, I'm more than certain they'd be highlighting it! Something along the lines of those in the younger age group kept their new density for the entire 48 week trial!

----------


## KJ1982

I can't help but feel a little deflated at this news, to be honest. I still have great hope for Histogen but, well... :\

----------


## UK_

_*scrambles for finasteride*_

----------


## garethbale

Desmond

Where did you get the figure of 2.5% from, for the temples?

----------


## UK_

^^^ yeah 2.5%?? 

Guys I also didnt know anything about the toxicity issues - where is that located on the poster linked by Desmond?

----------


## Desmond84

Look at the blue bar presented under the heading Temporal Recession Region

----------


## Desmond84

> ^^^ yeah 2.5%?? 
> 
> Guys I also didnt know anything about the toxicity issues - where is that located on the poster linked by Desmond?


 Uk look under the heading: "FST bioactivity in hsc"

----------


## mmmcoffee

Welp...go team replicel

----------


## Pentarou

Bloody hell, if it wears out after only a year or so, it'd better be (relatively) dirt cheap, like a lot less than a hair transplant. I couldn't see the point otherwise.

----------


## UK_

Jesus Christ man, this is so ****ing bad.

----------


## 534623

> Hey guys, 
> 
> Histogen has finally published the results of their 12 month Phase I/IIa results. Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/ii..._hsc_final.pdf


 Should I analyze subject's S2011 48-weeks result ...


... as I did it with the other subjects?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10051

In advance: I can only see a completely normal circulating (anagen-catagen-telogen) test area.
There is absolutely nothing unusual to see.

----------


## iH8d0ugh

I can't see any difference between the baseline and 48 week pictures

----------


## UK_

Same ere lol.

WAIT A MINUTE!!! 

...oh no thats just a shedded hair on my screen.

----------


## Pentarou

> Jesus Christ man, this is so ****ing bad.


 And we thought the Replicel results last May were bad... This is awful. Beginning to think this will be canned long before it becomes a marketable product.

----------


## Desmond84

The results are not that bad! 19% increase in hair density is pretty decent. The question is what role does hsc play in terms of management of MPB. I suppose what these results show is that it will be an add-on therapy rather than a stand-alone treatment!

It will simply thicken up thinning areas and then finasteride will maintain these cosmetic results.

Thats my opinion anyway

----------


## UK_

The bottom right looks thicker but nothing Propecia/Minox couldnt already achieve.

What we needed was proof this could grow hair on slick bald regions.

It cant.

For people with advanced hair loss - their better treatment will come in the form of better transplantation methods, such as the procedure invented by Dr Coen Gho.

----------


## 534623

> The results are not that bad! 19% increase in hair density is pretty decent.


 How much is 1 hair + 19% ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## clandestine

Admittedly boys, it's not where we'd hope to be.

Thanks for the post, Des.

----------


## 25 going on 65

I never expected this to be a stand alone treatment. I am thinking it can be a solid adjunct if it is not too expensive (or if the regenerated hairs can somehow be immunized to re-miniaturizing)
I would rather use this than rub in minox 2x every day




> It will simply thicken up thinning areas and then finasteride will maintain these cosmetic results.
> 
> Thats my opinion anyway


 
So you think the "degradation rate" (hair count at 12 weeks vs 24 vs 48) can be helped with DHT blockers?

----------


## StayThick

This is why I choose to not hang onto hope. This is very disappointing to say the least.

I got news for you, if you think Replicel is going to be our savior then you my friends will be disappointed once again. 19% density I'd take right now, but by the time Histogen is to be released (big if) I'll need a treatment to grow hair on my slick bald spots. This is deflating.

Time to research Gho further and take the plunge.

----------


## clandestine

double post, apparently

----------


## clandestine

The frustration lies in how many of cannot tolerate DHT blockers. For us, these 'results' are entirely grim.

----------


## StinkySmurf

Thanks Des!

I always thought Histogen's HSC was the most like Botox, and I don't think that changed with this news.

The longevity is less than I hoped for, but I wonder what is the toxicity of a Botox injection by comparison?

How many injections of each can you get at one time?

----------


## Arashi

This is really disappointing

----------


## garethbale

Why doesn't someone contact Histogen to quiz them about the results and implications for further trials.  Can these be improved with a new trial?

They seem to think the results were exciting (yes I'm aware they are bound to say that)

----------


## Pentarou

> The results are not that bad! 19% increase in hair density is pretty decent. The question is what role does hsc play in terms of management of MPB. I suppose what these results show is that it will be an add-on therapy rather than a stand-alone treatment!
> 
> It will simply thicken up thinning areas and then finasteride will maintain these cosmetic results.
> 
> Thats my opinion anyway


 Will it be affordable as an 'add on' treatment for all but the very wealthy? That is the issue. Imagine if these injections cost 2000 or whatever, is that something most of us could justify each year, every year? On top of prescriptions for finasteride and minoxidil? Are the results even good enough for the company to afford to go through Phase 3?





> The frustration lies in how many of cannot tolerate DHT blockers. For us, these 'results' are entirely grim.


  :Frown:  I guess CB and the elusive mystical PGD2 blockers and the only hope for those people, God knows how many years off those may be.

----------


## FearTheLoss

...damn

----------


## Arashi

> Are the results even good enough for the company to afford to go through Phase 3?


 Looking at the results, it looks like you should almost get 2-3 treatments each year. But then again, that might adversely impact the hemoblogin count and thus bring health risks ...

Man, this surely is disappointing !

----------


## Conpecia

Another one bites the dust. Thanks for the find Des. My only hope is topical fin with minimal sides. Clan, that's what we should be waiting for. Start saving for a good HT.

----------


## Arashi

At least we now understand why they have such difficulties finding investors ...

----------


## veca

These are not new results! What are you talking ABOUT??? WAIT FOR OFFICIAL RESULTS!!

----------


## john2399

> These are not new results! What are you talking ABOUT??? WAIT FOR OFFICIAL RESULTS!!


 How is it not official?

----------


## Arashi

> These are not new results! What are you talking ABOUT??? WAIT FOR OFFICIAL RESULTS!!


 Eh ? just look at the document's name: HSC_final. Besides previous releases didnt contain 48 weeks data

----------


## veca

I contacted HISTOGEN via e-mail, and here's what I got from them: 

"Thank you for your interest and message. In the Phase I / II clinical trial of HSC, Which has recently passed the final timepoints, a Significant increase in vellus hair count was seen for the first time. this was in addition to improvement across efficacy measures, including total and terminal hair counts. this supports the hypothesis that the HSC treatment rescues dormant follicles, in addition to converting vellus to terminal hairs and becoming the number of hairs per follicle. However, there is much more to be learned in this area before mechanisms can be pointed to with any level of certainty.



While the Phase I / II has passed all timepoints, data from that trial is still being analyzed. I anticipate Histogen HSC will have updates to share in the next couple of months. The Company is not currently releasing any estimated timeframes for market introduction of HSC, however we can say that at least one additional clinical trial will be required in any geographic region where the HSC will be brought to market ..



I look forward to sharing HSC updates soon. Please do also check back to our website periodically for the latest news Histogen. "

I got this 10th May!

----------


## Arashi

> I contacted HISTOGEN via e-mail, and here's what I got from them: 
> 
> "Thank you for your interest and message. In the Phase I / II clinical trial of HSC, Which has recently passed the final timepoints, a Significant increase in vellus hair count was seen for the first time. this was in addition to improvement across efficacy measures, including total and terminal hair counts. this supports the hypothesis that the HSC treatment rescues dormant follicles, in addition to converting vellus to terminal hairs and becoming the number of hairs per follicle. However, there is much more to be learned in this area before mechanisms can be pointed to with any level of certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> While the Phase I / II has passed all timepoints, data from that trial is still being analyzed. I anticipate Histogen HSC will have updates to share in the next couple of months. The Company is not currently releasing any estimated timeframes for market introduction of HSC, however we can say that at least one additional clinical trial will be required in any geographic region where the HSC will be brought to market ..
> 
> 
> ...


 So you got this 3 weeks ago, they said they were to release this in the 'next few months', which is consistent with what they did.

----------


## veca

I got this three weeks ago! Finally, the output from will be published in the "NEWS" on the official website HISTOGEN. Now, there are currently no news! http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news.htm

----------


## Arashi

> I got this three weeks ago! Finally, the output from will be published in the "NEWS" on the official website HISTOGEN. Now, there are currently no news! http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news.htm


 But again, look at how they named the document and how it contains 48 week's data. It must be final

----------


## veca

I do not get too depressed .... at least until they are confirming this information! I just sent an e-mail, I hope that they will respond. To be honest, I've given too much hope in Histogen.

----------


## Arashi

> I do not get too depressed .... at least until they are confirming this information! I just sent an e-mail, I hope that they will respond. To be honest, I've given too much hope in Histogen.


 Hehe. I always try to remain positive. But man ... these data suck. I hadn't expected the effects to wear off over time, let alone so damn quickly !! And they can't really up the doses much because of the health risk (adverse effects on hemoglobin count). So to me it seems we can scratch Histogen as one of our future treatments. Or am I missing something ?

----------


## veca

Man, I've accepted the fact that our only hope is Dr. Nigam.

----------


## john2399

> Hehe. I always try to remain positive. But man ... these data suck. I hadn't expected the effects to wear off over time, let alone so damn quickly !! And they can't really up the doses much because of the health risk (adverse effects on hemoglobin count). So to me it seems we can scratch Histogen as one of our future treatments. Or am I missing something ?


 Scratch it off already? Geez...just last week histogen would be the dam cure

----------


## Buster

This really sucks. Histogen has been keeping me positive this last year, now were back at nothing promising.

----------


## Arashi

> Man, I've accepted the fact that our only hope is Dr. Nigam.


 Don't forget he's also been using (pretty much the same) growth factors as Histogen. So this is bad news for Nigams too.

----------


## Arashi

> Scratch it off already? Geez...just last week histogen would be the dam cure


 Maybe I'm underestimating those results and there's still hope for Histogen, but I don't see it. Desmond maybe ? Anyone else ?

----------


## FearTheLoss

Who knows what this could do combined with other treatments though....

and at least we got good news about Replicel this week.

----------


## Arashi

> This really sucks. Histogen has been keeping me positive this last year, now were back at nothing promising.


 Well replicel just found a (huge) investor, throwing money at them, so at least this investor sees some possibility of their trial II becoming a success. And don't forget Jahoda et al succeeded recently at biogenerating a human hair follicle and have it grow on human skin. So Histogen most definately wasn't the only one to bring hope. But yeah, agreed, it still sucks hard.

----------


## Arashi

Dr Nigams relativated the importance of this to his methods . Let's all hope he's right. We could use some positive news after this for once ...

----------


## garethbale

Is it not just the temporal regrowth that's rubbish (5%)?  The rest doesn't seem too bad. And I don't really respond well to fin and minox so this wouldn't be too bad for me

----------


## Arashi

> Is it not just the temporal regrowth that's rubbish (5&#37?  The rest doesn't seem too bad. And I don't really respond well to fin and minox so this wouldn't be too bad for me


 If this treatment could be given twice a year without comprimising health (so no adverse effect on hemoglobine) AND the treatable size of the scalp would be big enough (again without effecting hemoglobine), then yeah, this could be something. But even then, visiting their clinic twice a year, for pretty marginal results, would still suck. And would indeed also be quite a drain of money.

----------


## Pentarou

> Man, I've accepted the fact that our only hope is Dr. Nigam.


 I'm coming round to Iron Man's way of thinking that developments in hair transplant technology (whether by Gho, Nigam or whomever) is our best bet. However that's not too useful for us Nw2s with diffuse loss.

Possibly our only other hope is resarch into treatments involving Prostaglandins, and hoping that the non-success that forum-going experimenters have had so far is because of amateur cluelessness.

----------


## garethbale

> If this treatment could be given twice a year without comprimising health (so no adverse effect on hemoglobine) AND the treatable size of the scalp would be big enough (again without effecting hemoglobine), then yeah, this could be something. But even then, visiting their clinic twice a year, for pretty marginal results, would still suck. And would indeed also be quite a drain of money.


 Bloody hell I forgot about travel (assuming I would travel to Asia or wherever it's released first). The flights might be as expensive as the treatment.

What happens now then? Will they conduct further trials?

They haven't released any new patient photos. I wonder if someone here wants to contact Histogen to quiz them about results and photos, and the next steps taken...

----------


## Vox

> They haven't released any new patient photos. I wonder if someone here wants to contact Histogen to quiz them about results and photos, and the next steps taken...


 For me it does not matter to know such details. If they had something substantial, we would know it by now. So I am not going to ask my usual question (does it grow any hair on slick bald head?).

With anaemia as a potential danger, it is something that I would never try.

----------


## Arashi

> What happens now then? Will they conduct further trials?


 They're currently looking for an investor as they've ran out of money. But with these results, finding one probably won't be easy ...

----------


## rdawg

> They're currently looking for an investor as they've ran out of money. But with these results, finding one probably won't be easy ...


 lol they have money, they're gonna go to the next trial, they oculd just use surplus funds to speed things up.

few questions:

1. this was only the safety trial correct? couldn't things be much improved in the next dose range trial?

2. We still dont know how well this will work with a DHT inhibitor, which may help things out alot!

3. are there any pictures of patients here? would give us a little better of an idea than just statistics.

----------


## Arashi

> lol they have money, they're gonna go to the next trial, they oculd just use surplus funds to speed things up.


 That's what they said but to me it seems just a part of the negotiations strategy. If they'd admit they were broke, finding an investor would even be more difficult (since its power over Histogen would be bigger).




> 1. this was only the safety trial correct? couldn't things be much improved in the next dose range trial?


 HSC has adverse effect on Hemoglobin count, so upping the dose seems out of the question. In fact, one could wonder what part of the scalp could be treated without adversely effecting hemoglobin count. Maybe only a small part of the scalp could be treated ?




> 3. are there any pictures of patients here? would give us a little better of an idea than just statistics.


 Nope. Only the pictures in that pdf file and they look horrible.

----------


## JJJJrS

The past year or so has been very deflating for future hair loss treatments. Replicel, Histogen, and Aderans have all presented mediocre results without showing any significant cosmetic improvement. It's a shame but the situation looks much more bleak now than it did a few years ago when things were quite a bit more optimistic.

There are plenty of people studying hair loss treatments though and my bet is that a promising treatment will come from a source we aren't expecting.

----------


## Arashi

> The past year or so has been very deflating for future hair loss treatments. Replicel, Histogen, and Aderans have all presented mediocre results without showing any significant cosmetic improvement. It's a shame but the situation looks much more bleak now than it did a few years ago when things were quite a bit more optimistic.
> 
> There are plenty of people studying hair loss treatments though and my bet is that a promising treatment will come from a source we aren't expecting.


 Only thing that's MORE promising than a few years ago is what Team tokyo presented AND that Jahoda even succeeded at biogenerating and growing a human hair follicle on human skin. This seems currently the most promising therapy by far (and the only TRUE cure). However it will be years before this would be available (at least 6-8 years). They need to optimize things and do clinical trials but the mere fact that they've already did it (!!) and already found what is a TRUE cure for hairloss, is very very promising at least.

----------


## rdawg

> That's what they said but to me it seems just a part of the negotiations strategy. If they'd admit they were broke, finding an investor would even be more difficult (since its power over Histogen would be bigger).
> 
> 
> HSC has adverse effect on Hemoglobin count, so upping the dose seems out of the question. In fact, one could wonder what part of the scalp could be treated without adversely effecting hemoglobin count. Maybe only a small part of the scalp could be treated ?


 we'll see about 1. I have no idea.

but the safety tihng is interesting, in this trial they only used 8 injections which is a tiny area of the scalp, so just to clarify, you cant get more than 8 injections say every 6 months? Could they raise the dose in those 8 injections? cause that's like just covering one area, would take two years to cover your head!

----------


## Pentarou

:Embarrassment: 


> If this treatment could be given twice a year without comprimising health (so no adverse effect on hemoglobine) AND the treatable size of the scalp would be big enough (again without effecting hemoglobine), then yeah, this could be something. But even then, visiting their clinic twice a year, for pretty marginal results, would still suck. And would indeed also be quite a drain of money.


 Imagine if it was the cost of a modest hair transplant - but yearly. It'd be unaffordable for all but Hollywood A-listers and other assorted multimillionaires.

----------


## TravisB

So Histogen is basically dead...

Next stop - Aderans, Replicel, CB 03-01

----------


## BoSox

I'm glad I read the results before I saw all your comments. You guys are soo negative it's embarrassing. Histogen is moving forward, and that's all that matters.

----------


## Thinning87

> That's what they said but to me it seems just a part of the negotiations strategy. If they'd admit they were broke, finding an investor would even be more difficult (since its power over Histogen would be bigger).


 God are you serious? Why don't you just look at how much they raised and do an estimate of how much they must have spent. No way they ran out of money. Stop looking for reasons to complain.




> I'm glad I read the results before I saw all your comments. You guys are soo negative it's embarrassing. Histogen is moving forward, and that's all that matters.


 Yeah, unbelievable comments. No one had ever promised a permanent reversion of hair loss. HSC is clearly a thickness and count booster, with benefits obviously decaying over time. 

The real question will be wether it'll be possible to continuously take shots to get some good results in combination with a good HT and other stuff.

But don't forget phase 2B will be about optimizing the product. Hopefully they can do better and we will have an upper limit for how much of the substance we can have us injected with.

----------


## Arashi

> God are you serious? Why don't you just look at how much they raised and do an estimate of how much they must have spent. No way they ran out of money. Stop looking for reasons to complain.


 Chill out dude, don't take it personal. I'm just basing my comment on what I've read here on this forum, on how Histogen has supposedly communicated towards several people that they're currently looking for an investor. And with those really disappointing results that's going to be quite difficult in my opinion. No way I'd invest a dime into this company with those results.

----------


## Thinning87

> Hey guys, 
> 
> Histogen has finally published the results of their 12 month Phase I/IIa results. Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/ii..._hsc_final.pdf
> 
> There's a lot of information which is provided and requires extensive discussion.
> 
> *1) Duration of Efficacy:* Although the patients remained above baseline at the 48 week follow-up, the effects started to wear off by that point: % Change from baseline: 19% (Week 12) compared to 12% (Week 36). This means that patients will need booster shots at least ONCE A YEAR. 
> ...


 1 and 2) The benefits decay overtime, we all knew that....

3 and 4) We don't know yet how often and how much can be injected. Assuming your deduction of an upper limit is correct, I wouldn't conclude the maximum level than can be injected is insufficient for significant growth and results. I think this is where phase 2B comes in, but we don't know that this is a major problem. They could figure out strategies to inject larger amounts in such ways not to increase significantly the risk of dangerous side effects.

----------


## Arashi

> Yeah, unbelievable comments. No one had ever promised a permanent reversion of hair loss. HSC is clearly a thickness and count booster, with benefits obviously decaying over time.


 Well at least to me it's new that the effects start to wear of within 24 weeks already. Maybe even much sooner. And that HSC decreases hemoglobin production. And that it thus seems like you'll need at least 2 shots/year but that would risk hemoglobin levels (and even if it didn't, then it would still be a huge hassle to visit them twice a year for injections for only a marginal improvement).

----------


## Thinning87

> Chill out dude, don't take it personal. I'm just basing my comment on what I've read here on this forum, on how Histogen has supposedly communicated towards several people that they're currently looking for an investor. And with those really disappointing results that's going to be quite difficult in my opinion. No way I'd invest a dime into this company with those results.


 I'm very calm. 

Also, you are the perfect example of why need the forum to be reorganized in a way so that official information is stored and quickly accessible.

You deducted Histogen ran out of money. That is not true; Dr. Naughton released an interview with the MIT Enterprise Forum of San Diego back in Octoer/November stating they were looking for a partner with considerable financial and marketing weight to accompany them into their later stages of product development, and then eventually rely on their marketing power to launch the product the right way.

This is what Replicel is also doing, and what a lot of biotechs have been doing increasingly in recent years because of how tough it is to fund this type of research. As you may have noticed in fact, additional funding to Replicel will come only if they meet certain milestones...

Apparently some of us have received emails from someone at Histogen that any additional funds would be welcome. This is what you have read and this is not equivalent to saying  they have no money.

----------


## Arashi

> I'm very calm. 
> 
> Also, you are the perfect example of why need the forum to be reorganized in a way so that official information is stored and quickly accessible.
> 
> You deducted Histogen ran out of money. That is not true; Dr. Naughton released an interview with the MIT Enterprise Forum of San Diego back in Octoer/November stating they were looking for a partner with considerable financial and marketing weight to accompany them into their later stages of product development, and then eventually rely on their marketing power to launch the product the right way.
> 
> This is what Replicel is also doing, and what a lot of biotechs have been doing increasingly in recent years because of how tough it is to fund this type of research. As you may have noticed in fact, additional funding to Replicel will come only if they meet certain milestones...
> 
> Apparently some of us have received emails from someone at Histogen that any additional funds would be welcome. This is what you have read and this is not equivalent to saying  they have no money.


 Ok. But either way, they're looking for an investor. In my opinion something that won't be easy with these results. We'll see about that.

----------


## Thinning87

> Well at least to me it's new that the effects start to wear of within 24 weeks already.


 Well no one ever promised your hair would be back to where it was on its own. I bet if you had read and informed yourself you would have noticed that the fact that benefits decay overtime. Let me tell you now: this is like botox in the sense that it's an injection of some stuff that makes you look better for some time because it adds longevity to your skin, but it doesn't "reprogram" the behavior of that skin telling it to go back to what it was before. 




> Maybe even much sooner. And that HSC decreases hemoglobin production. And that it thus seems like you'll need at least 2 shots/year but that would risk hemoglobin levels (and even if it didn't, then it would still be a huge hassle to visit them twice a year for injections for only a marginal improvement).


 This is just speculation from our good Desmond. That there would have been some upper bound in terms of how many shots you can take in a given amount of time was a given, we just need to find out in phase 2B what that upper bound is so we can weigh in the safe growth benefits with the expense and frequency of expenditure for a treatment.

What I'm telling you guys and Desmond is that they don't know that upper bound yet, and that's what they'll work on in phase 2B.

----------


## Thinning87

> Ok. But either way, they're looking for an investor. In my opinion something that won't be easy with these results. We'll see about that.


 Wrong again; not an investor, a partner that will be willing to give them money and infrastructure in exchange of royalties. It was meant to be that way all along and it is meant to be that way for most of these companies. It's called a business plan. They already had early stage investors.

----------


## Scientalk56

> Further, subjects receiving HSC in the *temporal recession*, which is known to be more difficult to treat than other areas of hair loss, saw marked improvement in terminal hair count, with a *mean increase 25.2%* at the 24 week time point.


 http://www.histogen.com/applications/hsc.htm

25.2% increase is perfect..

It's the first PROVEN product to regrow hair on temples..

----------


## Arashi

> Well no one ever promised your hair would be back to where it was on its own. I bet if you had read and informed yourself you would have noticed that the fact that benefits decay overtime. Let me tell you now: this is like botox in the sense that it's an injection of some stuff that makes you look better for some time because it adds longevity to your skin, but it doesn't "reprogram" the behavior of that skin telling it to go back to what it was before.


 Was it known that effects would diminish so quickly and so steeply ? I wasn't aware for one and am really not interested in a product which I'd have to visit a clinic for twice a year and which only gives me marginal results. Maybe others are interested, like you said, same thing goes for Botox and most injectable fillers (multiple injections/visits per year). But this really isn't what I'm looking for. I'm going to have to scratch Histogen from my personal list of 'possible next gen treatments'. Again, maybe others feel otherwise, but this is just my opinion.

----------


## Arashi

> Wrong again; not an investor, a partner that will be willing to give them money and infrastructure in exchange of royalties. It was meant to be that way all along and it is meant to be that way for most of these companies. It's called a business plan. They already had early stage investors.


 Hehe, that's just terminology. They need someone to bring them money to carry on with their research, I don't care how you call it.

----------


## Arashi

> http://www.histogen.com/applications/hsc.htm
> 
> 25.2% increase is perfect..
> 
> It's the first PROVEN product to regrow hair on temples..


 Look at the hair count. Only about 2% increase in temples after 24 weeks.

----------


## Scientalk56

> Look at the hair count. Only about 2% increase in temples after 24 weeks.


 where is that written? :O ?

----------


## Arashi

> where is that written? :O ?


 Just look at the chart under 'temporal recession region' in the PDF Desmond posted. You're talking baout 'terminal density'. It seems to me that this means the terminal hairs just got 25&#37; thicker. Which might give a somewhat noticable effect. But only if you have hair on your temples to begin with, since temple hair count only increased with 2% after 24 months, in that same chart.

----------


## Thinning87

> Hehe, that's just terminology. They need someone to bring them money to carry on with their research, I don't care how you call it.


 No this is not like debating if the glass is half full or half empty. 

If they were looking for an investor they'd be in trouble, and that's how you want to make it look. But guess what: "Investor" Not Equal "Partner".

So they are not in trouble and everything is proceeding according to plan. This is the point here, so stop spreading unfunded negative rumors because you are sad for your own reasons.

----------


## Arashi

> No this is not like debating if the glass is half full or half empty. 
> 
> If they were looking for an investor they'd be in trouble, and that's how you want to make it look. But guess what: "Investor" Not Equal "Partner".
> 
> So they are not in trouble and everything is proceeding according to plan. This is the point here, so stop spreading unfunded negative rumors because you are sad for your own reasons.


 I'm not 'sad', but just tremendously disappointed by these results. And again, I don't really care how you call it, investor, partner or whatever. What I'm saying is that it's going to be very difficult for them to find one and that in MY OPINION chances of this product ever reaching the market greatly dimmed after these results.

----------


## Scientalk56

> Just look at the chart under 'temporal recession region' in the PDF Desmond posted. You're talking baout 'terminal density'. It seems to me that this means the terminal hairs just got 25% thicker. Which might give a somewhat noticable effect. But only if you have hair on your temples to begin with, since temple hair count only increased with 2% after 24 months, in that same chart.


 Can you print screen that please? i can't see it :S

----------


## Arashi

> Can you print screen that please? i can't see it :S


 See the big 'RESULTS' heading in green ? Then look below the picture. You'll see a chart there.

----------


## Scientalk56

lol,
i think Freud has to say something about not seeing this...
Is my mind trying so hard to block that, so i wont get traumatized? lol

----------


## Arashi

> lol,
> i think Freud has to say something about not seeing this...
> Is my mind trying so hard to block that, so i wont get traumatized? lol


 Sorry, I was even pointing you to the wrong chart. It's in the colomn to the right of that colum with the 'results' heading. But you can't miss it  :Wink:

----------


## Scientalk56

ohhh... we're f*c*ed.. :|

i mean if Histogen can't regrow my very big temples, my head will still look funny with new thick hair and no temples... :S

----------


## garethbale

> ohhh... we're f*c*ed.. :|
> 
> i mean if Histogen can't regrow my very big temples, my head will still look funny with new thick hair and no temples... :S


 Transplant for the temples my friend  :Smile:

----------


## Vox

OK guys, you seem to severely downplay the anaemia part. This is no joke. It is not like the side effects we knew so far. Who can guarantee that you will not develop anaemia after some years of repetitive treatments, even if you don't exceed what it seems to be safe today? I would not be surprised if they go another safety round because of this.

----------


## bigentries

Another intercytex situation, mediocre results (now with safety concerns) and still people try to defend them.
Like Intercytex, I bet Histogen will quietly disappear from the scene.

This pushes HM at least 20 years  :Frown: 

The silence from Aderans tells me they have the same troubles. Now let's wait until a new savior arises

----------


## Arashi

> Another intercytex situation, mediocre results (now with safety concerns) and still people try to defend them.
> Like Intercytex, I bet Histogen will quietly disappear from the scene.
> 
> This pushes HM at least 20 years 
> 
> The silence from Aderans tells me they have the same troubles. Now let's wait until a new savior arises


 Agreed that silence is a very bad sign in this business. Companies with success usually like to boast them ASAP and publicize any favorable interim result as soon as they can. However I don't agree that this pushes back HM 20 years. Don't forget that Jahoda already succeeded at bio-engineering a human hair follicle and have it grow on human skin !! They just need to optimize it and run trials. But 20 years is way too pessimistic here for something that they've already succeeded doing !

----------


## Vox

> Don't forget that Jahoda already succeeded at bio-engineering a human hair follicle and have it grow on human skin !! They just need to optimize it and run trials. But 20 years is way too pessimistic here for something that they've already succeeded doing !


 How about 5-10 years for this kind of cure?

----------


## Arashi

> How about 5-10 years for this kind of cure?


 That's what I'm hoping for and seems realistic. But man, who knows. Always something unexpected arises. But I have faith, great progress IS being made and since they've already done it as a proof of  concept, it gives me great hope for this technique.

----------


## bigentries

> Agreed that silence is a very bad sign in this business. Companies with success usually like to boast them ASAP and publicize any favorable interim result as soon as they can. However I don't agree that this pushes back HM 20 years. Don't forget that Jahoda already succeeded at bio-engineering a human hair follicle and have it grow on human skin !! They just need to optimize it and run trials. But 20 years is way too pessimistic here for something that they've already succeeded doing !


 Is it really pessimistic? It means kids born today wouldn't need to worry about baldness!
Let's be realistic, every company that got to phase II took a decade to get there, I don't see how new possibilities would arrive to the market in, let's say, less than 15 years

The thing with Aderans is that, I can't see how they could hide good results. If someone was growing hair like that Simpson's episode where Homer got his hair back, in the middle of America, during the internet era, everyone would know it was happening, non-disclosure agreement or not. The only reliable insider 3 years ago said the results were very mediocre

Being overly optimistic, I think CB is still in the game, and after the acne trials end, everyone will be able to get it off-label

----------


## Arashi

> Is it really pessimistic? It means kids born today wouldn't need to worry about baldness!
> Let's be realistic, every company that got to phase II took a decade to get there, I don't see how new possibilities would arrive to the market in, let's say, less than 15 years
> 
> The thing with Aderans is that, I can't see how they could hide good results. If someone was growing hair like that Simpson's episode where Homer got his hair back, in the middle of America, during the internet era, everyone would know it was happening, non-disclosure agreement or not. The only reliable insider 3 years ago said the results were very mediocre
> 
> Being overly optimistic, I think CB is still in the game, and after the acne trials end, everyone will be able to get it off-label


 But both Team Tokyo and Jahoda et al already, independently succeeded (!!) at bio-engineering a human hair follicle, growing human hair. They already did it ! It's not science fiction, it was already done ! So getting that to market, it should be possible within 10 years.

----------


## bigentries

> But both Team Tokyo and Jahoda et al already succeeded (!!) at bio-engineering a human hair follicle, growing human hair. They already did it ! It's not science fiction, it was already done ! So getting that to market, it should be possible within 10 years.


 Again, you are being overly optimistic. With this kind of news I would have guessed people would be starting to get more realistic

Remember Dolly? The human genome? they haven't really translated into new treatments. We know a lot more thanks to those achievements, but people were also expecting the first bio-engineered human to arrive in a decade at most

----------


## clarence

> The thing with Aderans is that, I can't see how they could hide good results. If someone was growing hair like that Simpson's episode where Homer got his hair back, in the middle of America, during the internet era, everyone would know it was happening, non-disclosure agreement or not. The only reliable insider 3 years ago said the results were very mediocre


 Let's be scientifically precise here. Homer has telogen effluvium - not MPB - despite what that kind of a horseshoe would suggest in our own universe!!

----------


## bigentries

> Let's be scientifically precise here. Homer has telogen effluvium - not MPB - despite what that kind of a horseshoe would suggest in our own universe!!


 No, it's MPB, he was using minoxidil

Edit: My bad, it was *dimoxinil* it's evil brother that actually works

----------


## Arashi

> Remember Dolly? The human genome? they haven't really translated into new treatments. We know a lot more thanks to those achievements, but people were also expecting the first bio-engineered human to arrive in a decade at most


 That's not a fair comparison, it's more ethics that kept things back. Scientists are now able to flip on/off any gene in ANY organism, including humans (which IS being done as we speak, for example in a phase II clinical trial to make humans resistant against HIV/AIDS, see http://www.sangamo.com/pipeline/sb-728.html for example). And cloning humans is theoretically possible as well. It's just ethics keeping that back.

----------


## Buster

> Let's be scientifically precise here. Homer has telogen effluvium - not MPB - despite what that kind of a horseshoe would suggest in our own universe!!


 Actually he ripped out his own hair each time Marge told him she was pregnant.

----------


## ryan555

Anyone who was expecting Histogen to grow thick hair on a bald scalp is delusional.  Such a treatment may never exist.  However, it clearly seems that HSC is, at the very least, capable of halting hair loss without the side effects of currently available medications.  It also appears that it is effective at thickening native hair and even achieving some regrowth.  And instead of taking a pill or slathering some gunk on your head every day, you might be able to take this treatment only once or twice a year.  That's a pretty big deal.  

As for the people freaking out about the price, this would probably end up being a product like botox - you go in once or twice a year and get a little touch up and then you're done.  Like botox, it's not going to be super cheap but it's also not going to be prohibitively expensive.  And no, you won't have to travel to their lab to get injections - they'll probably be in every dermatologist office on the planet, along side the botox, the fillers, etc.

----------


## bigentries

> Actually he ripped out his own hair each time Marge told him she was pregnant.


 I guess as a kid (with full density) was unable to appreciate the beauty of NW3 Homer

----------


## Phatalis

> Anyone who was expecting Histogen to grow thick hair on a bald scalp is delusional.  Such a treatment may never exist.  However, it clearly seems that HSC is, at the very least, capable of halting hair loss without the side effects of currently available medications.  It also appears that it is effective at thickening native hair and even achieving some regrowth.  And instead of taking a pill or slathering some gunk on your head every day, you might be able to take this treatment only once or twice a year.  That's a pretty big deal.  
> 
> As for the people freaking out about the price, this would probably end up being a product like botox - you go in once or twice a year and get a little touch up and then you're done.  Like botox, it's not going to be super cheap but it's also not going to be prohibitively expensive.  And no, you won't have to travel to their lab to get injections - they'll probably be in every dermatologist office on the planet, along side the botox, the fillers, etc.


 If this is what it comes to.. histogen simply halts hair loss... as good as fin without sides.. (hopefully better than fin) than in my mind it's still a huge success.

----------


## The Alchemist

_Clinical chemistry showed no indication of
toxicity or blood/urine abnormalities in the
general patient population following both sets
of HSC injection. Clinical evaluation of blood
serum chemistry, hematology and urinalysis
showed no changes from baseline over the course
of the treatment. Figures above show the serum
blood chemistry and hematology values obtained
at baseline (pre-treatment), 4 weeks and 12
weeks. No evidence of toxicity is observed in any
of the clinical indicators_


So, how is it that Histogen can come to these conclusions and in the very same poster demonstrate that Follistatin is inhibiting hemoglobin levels?

Anyone know what Max% OD stands for?

----------


## Desmond84

I personally think Histogen will have a place in our current armament against MPB...but it will NOT be capable of doing what we initially hoped it to be:

"A single session providing 20&#37; increase in hair count for 2 years across the crown, vertex and temporal areas"

The next phase is the "Dose-range finding" study...this is going to be significant for us, because Histogen will find out how much HSC they can inject without risking Haematological adverse effects!

There is another solution to their problem as well! The main culprit for dropping Haemoglobin count is Follistatin! Maybe they can reduce the concentration of Follistatin in order to enable treatment of a much larger surface area! Hopefully reducing the concentration of Follistatin will NOT reduce the efficacy all that much!

----------


## Desmond84

> _Clinical chemistry showed no indication of
> toxicity or blood/urine abnormalities in the
> general patient population following both sets
> of HSC injection. Clinical evaluation of blood
> serum chemistry, hematology and urinalysis
> showed no changes from baseline over the course
> of the treatment. Figures above show the serum
> blood chemistry and hematology values obtained
> at baseline (pre-treatment), 4 weeks and 12
> ...


 No evidence of toxicity was observed in the Phase I/II trial by using merely 8 shots of HSC...The chart about Follistatin is most likely from their Animal toxicity studies, where they inject large doses of the drug to observe possible risks of toxicity!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I can't help but feel a little deflated at this news, to be honest. I still have great hope for Histogen but, well... :\


 We don't know the percentage change from baseline to begin with.

Could be 50% + 2.5%?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> If this is what it comes to.. histogen simply halts hair loss... as good as fin without sides.. (hopefully better than fin) than in my mind it's still a huge success.


 The problem is, I doubt it will make it to the market if this is "all" it does...Propecia didn't generate near the profit that Merk hoped it would...so I doubt that a company would invest in histogen if it's another version of propecia..

That being said, if HSC could be distributed at a reasonable price, it may be appealing as there isn't the side effect concern and it's injections once a year or so...instead of a pill every day. Also, who knows what this could do if it were combined with fin or RU or another treatment. 


I guess only time can tell.

----------


## Desmond84

This is where Histogen will play a big part:

You know those vellus hairs that never turn terminal NO MATTER how much Propecia you take! Well, Histogen will most probably turn them terminal and if you continue taking Propecia they will remain terminal!

Histogen will work synergistically with Propecia!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> This is where Histogen will play a big part:
> 
> You know those vellus hairs that never turn terminal NO MATTER how much Propecia you take! Well, Histogen will most probably turn them terminal and if you continue taking Propecia they will remain terminal!
> 
> Histogen will work synergistically with Propecia!


 
Exactly, or maybe even better. 

I was pretty down at first with the results...but they have another phase to improve things and at least it is better than propecia! that is a start for many...because it seems like hardly anyone can actually take propecia

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Just look at the chart under 'temporal recession region' in the PDF Desmond posted. You're talking baout 'terminal density'. It seems to me that this means the terminal hairs just got 25&#37; thicker. Which might give a somewhat noticable effect. But only if you have hair on your temples to begin with, since temple hair count only increased with 2% after 24 months, in that same chart.


 In other words.
Histogen was never going to grow hair on slick bald scalp. Hence the 'temple hair increased by 2% after 24 months statement'

It is just a better version if minoxidil.

Most likely we will have to use this in conjunction with having a HT (if you haven't lost your temple hair already)

I suspect HSC is going to be cheap if it requires a yearly booster.

It is also side effect free unlike fin. Like fin it will maintain.

Would you rather be slapping minox on your head, taking fin or just going in yearly for a booster ?

I don't know why you all are moaning. Sure the yearly shots are a pain in the ass. But it's as I've described.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> The problem is, I doubt it will make it to the market if this is "all" it does...Propecia didn't generate near the profit that Merk hoped it would...so I doubt that a company would invest in histogen if it's another version of propecia..
> 
> That being said, if HSC could be distributed at a reasonable price, it may be appealing as there isn't the side effect concern and it's injections once a year or so...instead of a pill every day. Also, who knows what this could do if it were combined with fin or RU or another treatment. 
> 
> 
> I guess only time can tell.


 Propecias popularity is declining due to adverse sides. It's the reason why I am not taking it ATM

If I were Merck I would replace it with HSC if they feel threatened by it.

----------


## Desmond84

Unfortunately Propecia will be our only effective weapon against hairloss for at least another 5 years  :Frown:

----------


## clandestine

Yeah who ******ing cares. I'm voicing for those who can't take Propecia; we're frustrated.

Everyone is frustrated, but those of us unable to take DHT inhibitors due to sides are entirely frustrated.

----------


## clandestine

To reiterate, and in case someone missed it;




> Desmond mate; Not *unwilling*. No.
> 
> Those *unable*. There are those of us who have been willing, have taken fin, and have been proven *unable*. Many of us cannot *tolerate* finasteride, and other DHT blockers. We're left with few options.
> 
> Sorry, but this distinction is terribly important.

----------


## yan

In next 5 years, my only hope lies in CB to be honest. And if I cant tolerate FIN anymore, I will try RU, bcs there is nothing beside RU and FIN that could save your hair atm. 

I only take FIN bcs I hope CB comes out in 4-5 years, if CB fails, my whole plan fails and I will probably shave my head. 4-5 years is the maximum I want to take FIN.

----------


## stayhopeful

> In next 5 years, my only hope lies in CB to be honest. And if I cant tolerate FIN anymore, I will try RU, bcs there is nothing beside RU and FIN that could save your hair atm. 
> 
> I only take FIN bcs I hope CB comes out in 4-5 years, if CB fails, my whole plan fails and I will probably shave my head. 4-5 years is the maximum I want to take FIN.


 Dude why are u so negative, what about Gho and Scarless FUE?

----------


## clandestine

> Dude why are u so negative, what about Gho and Scarless FUE?


 Really? How much will that cost us, then. Only tens of thousands? Lovely.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Unfortunately Propecia will be our only effective weapon against hairloss for at least another 5 years


 Wasnt this always the case until histogen comes out?

----------


## yan

> Dude why are u so negative, what about Gho and Scarless FUE?


 Bcs I dont believe in Gho and scarless fue is useless? It doesnt solve the problem with limited donor?

----------


## KO1

I think you guys are reading too much into this one data point. Total hair count is not as important as terminal hair density. These treatments aren't there to create new follicles de novo, but revitalize miniaturized follicles. Furthermore, the trend has not been a clear decline, but has oscillated. At 12 and 24 weeks we see an increase, at 36 we see a decrease, but at 48 we see an increase. It's not a consistent decline at all.

----------


## StayThick

> Unfortunately Propecia will be our only effective weapon against hairloss for at least another 5 years


 What a deflating, yet true statement. Depressing.

That means a slow death for my hair because I'll never touch FIN again. Sucks to be balding with no hope in sight.

----------


## yan

> What a deflating, yet true statement. Depressing.
> 
> That means a slow death for my hair because I'll never touch FIN again. Sucks to be balding with no hope in sight.


 Yes I`m sorry. Without FIN or at least RU to maintain what you have, there wont be any hope... It sucks so hard. 

If you lose too much hairs until Replicel / CB whatever comes out, not even HT + Replicel + CB can save you anymore. 

Its all about maintaining now. But is it worth taking the risks and live with side effects for years just to maintain in order to benefit from possible future treatments? Hard to say... :/

----------


## StayThick

I just started RU hoping to maintain. More importantly, hoping to avoid FIN related sides.

It's my last resort before looking at surgical options with Gho, Nigam, etc. I hate the feeling of the inevitable..the inevitable destiny I have of going completely bald because I have no more efficient options to save my hair.

----------


## hellouser



----------


## yan

Just a short explanation why I think CB could be the next big thing: 

+ In terms of efficacy and sides it's looking great so far. 
+ Cosmo is a profitable company in their own right so no worries about them going out of business if they meet delays
+ They have a clear timeline which they update half-yearly. IND Jan 14, End of POC 3/31/15.
+ We all know that AA`s work for most. There is not even a doubt if it could work or not. Its not new stuff like Histogen. If they can deliver CB to the hair follicle, thats it. It works. 


- They only tested with iontophoresis (electromotive drug administration - a technique using a small electric charge to deliver a medicine or other chemical through the skin) as far as I know. They stated they plan to use an anhydrous 5&#37; solution in the upcoming tests, but will it work? Quote: "CB-03-01 5% anhydrous solution was selected as the candidate drug"
- Really no sides?

----------


## vred

So has everyone written off the pure S Equol supplement coming out soon as well?

----------


## hellouser

> Just a short explanation why I think CB could be the next big thing: 
> 
> + In terms of efficacy and sides it's looking great so far. 
> + Cosmo is a profitable company in their own right so no worries about them going out of business if they meet delays
> + They have a clear timeline which they update half-yearly. IND Jan 14, End of POC 3/31/15.
> + We all know that AA`s work for most. There is not even a doubt if it could work or not. Its not new stuff like Histogen. If they can deliver CB to the hair follicle, thats it. It works. 
> 
> 
> - They only tested with iontopheresis as far as I know. They stated they plan to use an anhydrous 5% solution, but will it work? Quote: "CB-03-01 5% anhydrous solution was selected as the candidate drug"
> - Really no sides?


 The only side effect so far that we know of that COULD be an issue is skin atrophy. But theres so little of CB in a single dosage it may prove safe. This is the only thing that scares me about CB, I don't want my skin to deteriorate.

----------


## Conpecia

tan + exercise + diet.  just gotta accept and move on like the baldies who have come before us. then one day 10 years from now we'll be able to get hair back and it will be a nice bonus.

----------


## yan

> The only side effect so far that we know of that COULD be an issue is skin atrophy. But theres so little of CB in a single dosage it may prove safe. This is the only thing that scares me about CB, I don't want my skin to deteriorate.


 Could this also happen with RU (despite the fact its non-steroidal)? Considering that, its maybe too risky to use that kind of experimental treatments before FDA approval & extensive human trials... 

Damn you couldnt even shave your head anymore with deteriorated skin on your head...  :Frown:

----------


## hellouser

> So I assume this side effect could also occur after taking RU? Considering that, its maybe too risky to use that kind of experimental treatments before FDA approval & extensive human trials... 
> 
> Damn you couldnt even shave your head anymore with deteriorated skin on your head...


 No, RU is not a steroid. CB is.

I think El Duterino has been on RU for about 4 years with almost no further hair loss. CB is a corticosteroid hence skin atrophy being a potential side effect after prolonged use.

----------


## yan

> No, RU is not a steroid. CB is.
> 
> I think El Duterino has been on RU for about 4 years with almost no further hair loss. CB is a corticosteroid hence skin atrophy being a potential side effect after prolonged use.


 Omg and you have to use this probably for many many years. They cant even test the long-term effects on skin in Phase 1, 2 or 3. So to be completely safe, you would have to wait 5-10 years after market entry... 

Dude its like I lost my last hope now. After googling, I got the impression that topical steroids always give you sides or harm your skin. 

Oh men its all lost, maybe I should drop fin and shave my head. I have like zero hope now for future.

----------


## hellouser

> Omg and you have to use this probably for many many years. They cant even test the long-term effects on skin in Phase 1, 2 or 3. So to be completely safe, you would have to wait 5-10 years after market entry... 
> 
> Dude its like I lost my last hope now. After googling, I got the impression that topical steroids always give you sides or harm your skin. 
> 
> Oh men its all lost, maybe I should drop fin and shave my head. I have like zero hope now for future.


 Blame everyone;

- Merck for releasing a terrible drug with serious side effects (this has been on the market for too long and everyone else not doing anything to improve on it)
- Society for mocking the follicular challenged and keeping us bald
- Pharmaceuticals for not pushing superior alternatives
- Dr. Lauster for doing ****** ALL after finding the cure 3 years ago. This guy needs to be held accountable for doing nothing with his findings.
- The FDA for holding everyone back
- SkinMedica with their stupid lawsuit against Histogen that delayed them by a couple years
- Aderans for taking WAY too long.

----------


## JJJJrS

> tan + exercise + diet.  just gotta accept and move on like the baldies who have come before us. then one day 10 years from now we'll be able to get hair back and it will be a nice bonus.


 Pretty much it. You can only put your life on hold for so long. Focus on improving yourself and making the most of what you have.

Yes, hairloss sucks, especially at a young age, but there's very little you can do about it right now. It's tough accepting something when you know you're not living up to your full potential. But when there's no other options, you have to move on.

I still think it's worth keeping up with the forums periodically to read about the latest developments. I'm sure the next couple of years will bring alot more positive information than the last year or so. But obviously you have to keep it from being compulsive.

----------


## hellouser

> Pretty much it. You can only put your life on hold for so long. *Focus on improving yourself and making the most of what you have.
> *
> Yes, hairloss sucks, especially at a young age, but there's very little you can do about it right now. It's tough accepting something when you know you're not living up to your full potential. But when there's no other options, you have to move on.
> 
> I still think it's worth keeping up with the forums periodically to read about the latest developments. I'm sure the next couple of years will bring alot more positive information than the last year or so. But obviously you have to keep it from being compulsive.


 Everyone should be doing that regardless of hair or no hair. There are other ways to find pleasure in life... albeit not finding a woman to share said happiness due to hair loss is a MAJOR ******ing buzz kill.

----------


## Californication

Yeah, but hair loss doesn't mean no women. Harder? Definitely. But there are plenty of bald dudes, guys with hair loss who still get the women. Money talks, so does personality.

----------


## iH8d0ugh

> 


 Could someone tell me a little more about Lauster and what he has done? I have seen this pic a few times on the forums but i can't find any simple explanation for the work he has done

----------


## bananana

Again, we witness forum completely shifting it's perspective from "hallelujah" to "utter doom" in just 1 day. Without even an official press release. Take it easy guys, there are tons of stuff going on, and it's all for the better.

----------


## Scientalk56

We need to* interview Dr. Gail Naughton*.. Many of our conclusions can be wrong, not precisely correct.. we have many unanswered questions...
and we need to know more about the temple thing, see pictures..

lets hope for the best

----------


## MrBlonde

I think there comes a time when people need to face a difficult truth.

Stopping hair loss seems akin to stopping aging, its just not possible.  You can use creams and botox and face lifts, or fin and RU and HT's but it will slowly creep up on you.

The best we can hope for is a regime that gives us a decent cosmetic look into our later years 60's+.  It will be a constant struggle to maintain and style but thats what we have ahead of us.  

Histogen will be part of that process someday I hope.

----------


## UK_

It's quite weird, when I use a powerful magnifying mirror and really focus in on my bald areas (what would appear to be slick bald from a distance, such as my temples!!!) I can see a dense population of hundreds of nearly invisible minaturized hairs - and they have been there for well over a decade.

However I do believe, after a very long time there will come a point of no return when these follicles will just be removed by the body permanently.

----------


## Cob984

This is a bloody joke, i think eventually i will turn to well made unnoticeable hair systems, this is the only way to not have half ass results, but i plan to get this once i settle down with a chick etc, i hope i can hold out till then but its looking very difficult,

----------


## UK_

Fml.

----------


## Thinning87

> Does it matter that the patients were 40+ and thats why the effects wore off ?


 


> I doubt it...if that was the case, I'm more than certain they'd be highlighting it! Something along the lines of those in the younger age group kept their new density for the entire 48 week trial!


 i think it definetly does. It'll work better on us.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

lets see what aderans is doing guys

----------


## JDW

Well on the plus side, it seems that it stops future loss and at least does that job well. It's not going to regrow anything but will be a proven method of keeping what you have got.

----------


## Conpecia

stopping baldness isn't going to happen anytime soon. we have to figure out how to multiply or regenerate DHT-resistant hair follicles for transplants. hopefully that can be figured out consistently by nigam or gho by 2015. until then we need to focus on treatments like RU, CB and the new topical fin patent, we need to perfect existing treatments and minimize their sides. all of this Histogen/Replicel/Aderans focus is a waste of emotion and time. 2013 has been a huge, huge letdown as far as those treatments. I for one am moving on from them, focusing on stuff we can actually use now. I'm sick of seeing stuff I cannot use at the top of the thread list day after day.

----------


## k3nk3n

The effect starts to fade out after a certain week, but does that mean it will loss the hair that was gained from the injection? Because if it keeps the hair that was gained from the injection it's still something good

----------


## burtandernie

I think something like CB could stop MPB completely. I think we have proof that MPB can be completely stopped if you stop androgens from hair, but I think T needs to be dealt with it might not just be DHT. Stopping androgens completely is tough so the receptor approach might be a better way

----------


## rdawg

> I think something like CB could stop MPB completely. I think we have proof that MPB can be completely stopped if you stop androgens from hair, but I think T needs to be dealt with it might not just be DHT. Stopping androgens completely is tough so the receptor approach might be a better way


 Just need to find the proper vehicle for CB, how much does it cost btw? to get say a one year's supply?

----------


## hellouser

> Just need to find the proper vehicle for CB, how much does it cost btw? to get say a one year's supply?


 Approx $200 for 1gram. At 10mg per application it will last you 100 days. So 4grams would be needed for 1 year at a cost of $800.

If you value your hair, thats not a terrible price.

----------


## rdawg

> Approx $200 for 1gram. At 10mg per application it will last you 100 days. So 4grams would be needed for 1 year at a cost of $800.
> 
> If you value your hair, thats not a terrible price.


 depends how good this stuff works, it's purely a maintainer? or can it cause growth(or vellus reinforcement?)

----------


## UK Boy

Ok, one thing I don't get is that the same toxicology data was on the 6 month poster that Histogen produced yet nobody mentioned it, everyone was thrilled with Histogen when they released the 6 month data.

----------


## UK_

> Ok, one thing I don't get is that the same toxicology data was on the 6 month poster that Histogen produced yet nobody mentioned it, everyone was thrilled with Histogen when they released the 6 month data.


 Yes that's true it was revealed in October but not many people mentioned it.

----------


## Desmond84

Really! I must have missed it!

The follistatin is the culprit! Who knows they might take it out of their formula in order to allow fir increased dosing!

How vital is follistatin for hair growth is anyones guess

----------


## UK Boy

I just feel people may have jumped on this cos Desmond pointed things out to them, Desmond said Histogen's dead and suddenly it's gospel even though certain elements of the info have been sitting there for 6 months and no one even questioned then. Gail mentioned they're carrying out toxicology testing on large mammals so they appearing to be looking into this issue and hopefully trying to resolve it. I really think we need more info from the company regarding the results before Histogen gets written off, remember they still haven't even got into optimal dosing so efficacy can improve.  On a side note I don't think people should be writting Aderans off yet either, it's been like 1 month since their last phase 2 trial ended, you need ta give them at least 2 months to analyse results and get a statement organised. Everyone's gone doom and gloom but I feel it's an over reaction. Histogen and Aderans will not be miracle cures but they could be helpful tools if the companies don't try to charge large amounts for them.

----------


## garethbale

> I just feel people may have jumped on this cos Desmond pointed things out to them, Desmond said Histogen's dead and suddenly it's gospel even though certain elements of the info have been sitting there for 6 months and no one even questioned then. Gail mentioned they're carrying out toxicology testing on large mammals so they appearing to be looking into this issue and hopefully trying to resolve it. I really think we need more info from the company regarding the results before Histogen gets written off, remember they still haven't even got into optimal dosing so efficacy can improve.  On a side note I don't think people should be writting Aderans off yet either, it's been like 1 month since their last phase 2 trial ended, you need ta give them at least 2 months to analyse results and get a statement organised. Everyone's gone doom and gloom but I feel it's an over reaction. Histogen and Aderans will not be miracle cures but they could be helpful tools if the companies don't try to charge large amounts for them.


 
Spot on.

Nobody here has any inside information on any of these companies...Replicel, Aderans, Histogen, Nigam etc.  

As soon as it is mentioned that there is a problem, or that a trial hasn't grown an afro on a patient, this forum goes into meltdown!  Yes, the figures don't look great but really what are we expecting?   If Histogen can maintain for a good few years with injections that is still a very good option for some people (like me, who don't respond much to fin)

Lets not jump for joy when we hear potentially encouraging news nor bemoan our fate when we don't.  This is going to be a long drawn out process and there will many more ups and downs.

----------


## Desmond84

You're right! It was there! Im amazed that no one questioned it! 

I guess all drugs have a therapeutic window...there is only so much of a drug we can administer without causing toxicity!

Its the same with Histogen! Back in october some members calculated that we need 250-300 shots to cover the entire nw5 pattern area! 

Now that is a significant amount of hsc to inject! I said it before...the results are decent...but you will still need a dht inhibitor to maintain the areas you didnt inject...

I was just pointing out that this will not be an alternative to propecia but rather an add-on or a better version of minoxidil

----------


## UK_

> I just feel people may have jumped on this cos Desmond pointed things out to them, Desmond said Histogen's dead and suddenly it's gospel even though certain elements of the info have been sitting there for 6 months and no one even questioned then. Gail mentioned they're carrying out toxicology testing on large mammals so they appearing to be looking into this issue and hopefully trying to resolve it. I really think we need more info from the company regarding the results before Histogen gets written off, remember they still haven't even got into optimal dosing so efficacy can improve.  On a side note I don't think people should be writting Aderans off yet either, it's been like 1 month since their last phase 2 trial ended, you need ta give them at least 2 months to analyse results and get a statement organised. Everyone's gone doom and gloom but I feel it's an over reaction. Histogen and Aderans will not be miracle cures but they could be helpful tools if the companies don't try to charge large amounts for them.


 Sorry but I have written everyone off.  Its over guys, lets stop the madness.

----------


## garethbale

> Sorry but I have written everyone off.  Its over guys, lets stop the madness.


 Cheer up UK

----------


## Pentarou

Someone like UK_ who has been round on these forums for longer would have a more realistic perspective on "future" hair loss treatments, as in they ain't going to happen.

We all need to immediately adjust our way of thinking - it won't be *if* we go bald, it is *when*, and all we can realistically ever hope to do in our lifetimes is to delay that "when" to a slightly later date.

----------


## UK_

There comes a time in every bald truthers life that he has to accept the obvious.

Its over guys.  We're done.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

pecimists,

i am sorry, 

aint Nigam doubling already in the market? why so negative,
get a job save, 


AND GET YOUR HAIR

----------


## clandestine

> Someone like UK_ who has been round on these forums for longer would have a more realistic perspective on "future" hair loss treatments, as in they ain't going to happen.
> 
> We all need to immediately adjust our way of thinking - it won't be *if* we go bald, it is *when*, and all we can realistically ever hope to do in our lifetimes is to delay that "when" to a slightly later date.


 A fool who has been around a while is still a fool.

----------


## Desmond84

OK, I just finished watching Game of Thrones! What on earth!!!!

This week just keeps getting worse!

----------


## ihavebeenchosenithasbegun

> There comes a time in every bald truthers life that he has to accept the obvious.
> 
> Its over guys.  We're done.


 Pretty much we're probably going to be the last or second last generation to get ****ed.

Well, it seems finasteride is indeed sent by the gods, no matter how crude it is.

----------


## Thinning87

> I just feel people may have jumped on this cos Desmond pointed things out to them, Desmond said Histogen's dead and suddenly it's gospel even though certain elements of the info have been sitting there for 6 months and no one even questioned then. Gail mentioned they're carrying out toxicology testing on large mammals so they appearing to be looking into this issue and hopefully trying to resolve it. I really think we need more info from the company regarding the results before Histogen gets written off, remember they still haven't even got into optimal dosing so efficacy can improve.  On a side note I don't think people should be writting Aderans off yet either, it's been like 1 month since their last phase 2 trial ended, you need ta give them at least 2 months to analyse results and get a statement organised. Everyone's gone doom and gloom but I feel it's an over reaction. Histogen and Aderans will not be miracle cures but they could be helpful tools if the companies don't try to charge large amounts for them.


 


> Spot on.
> 
> Nobody here has any inside information on any of these companies...Replicel, Aderans, Histogen, Nigam etc.  
> 
> As soon as it is mentioned that there is a problem, or that a trial hasn't grown an afro on a patient, this forum goes into meltdown!  Yes, the figures don't look great but really what are we expecting?   If Histogen can maintain for a good few years with injections that is still a very good option for some people (like me, who don't respond much to fin)
> 
> Lets not jump for joy when we hear potentially encouraging news nor bemoan our fate when we don't.  This is going to be a long drawn out process and there will many more ups and downs.


 I agree. Having been bald and seen many letdowns for a long time doesn't make anyone more knowledgeable about future treatments than anybody else.

I can't believe all the sudden you guys are writing off Histogen like it had promised complete regrwoth in one sitting. If that's what you thought you obviously weren't paying attention to the information out there.

Not only do final results change nothing in terms of what someone can expect from the product, but they confirm to us that the company is indeed moving forward.

And so is Replicel, which was supposed to be dead according to the many "experienced" long-timers. And then we still need to hear anything from Aderans. And in the meantime while all this develops, we got others working in the background. And even if all this doesn't work, we can always shave heads, or get a good HT - life will move on. 

So cheer up everybody, new weapons are on their way to being released, so keep at it with the three P's of hairloss because they have not changed: Propecia, Propecia, Propecia.

----------


## The Alchemist

> OK, I just finished watching Game of Thrones! What on earth!!!!
> 
> This week just keeps getting worse!


 Hahaha!  I thought it was quite appropriate - the Starks were a nice metaphore for the hope of baldies everywhere.

----------


## Kiwi

> There comes a time in every bald truthers life that he has to accept the obvious.
> 
> Its over guys.  We're done.


 Am I missing something? Histogen didn't report no growth. If there are no toxicity issues you can HSC your whole head to maintain what you got.

And see Gho for some density if you need it.

Desmond is there anything I'm saying that isn't true?

----------


## UK_

> Am I missing something? Histogen didn't report no growth. If there are no toxicity issues you can HSC your whole head to maintain what you got.
> 
> And see Gho for some density if you need it.
> 
> Desmond is there anything I'm saying that isn't true?


 By the time Histogen come to market, I wont have anything left to hold on to - unless I bite the bullet and take finasteride, which I still cant bring myself to do.

----------


## Scientalk56

> By the time Histogen come to market, I wont have anything left to hold on to - unless I bite the bullet and take finasteride, which I still cant bring myself to do.


 Exactly the same...
I hope Phase IIb trial will prove efficacy on totally bald scalps...(sounds a little impossible - but we have no choice but histogen)

----------


## Desmond84

> Am I missing something? Histogen didn't report no growth. If there are no toxicity issues you can HSC your whole head to maintain what you got.
> 
> And see Gho for some density if you need it.
> 
> Desmond is there anything I'm saying that isn't true?


 Guys, when I wrote the initial post, my aim was NOT to write off Histogen. I was simply highlighting the points that were NOT known up until the recent announcement. 

I think it's important to clear up what these results showed: 

1) Histogen was ABLE to INCREASE Terminal hair count by up to 40&#37;! That is VERY GOOD by all of today's standards. 

2) The vellus hair count dropped significantly after 24 weeks, because obviously they had turned terminal. 

3) The total hair count however, did NOT change all that much in the temporal area (temples). Total hair count in other areas of treatment were NOT provided and hence anything we say about it will be speculation.

__________________________________________________  ____________
What these 3 points highlight is that Histogen RESCUES DYING FOLLICLES by turning vellus hairs into terminal. It puts these hairs into a long-term ANAGEN phase...hence, its overall mechanism of action is very similar to Minoxidil! 

However, Histogen has a much longer biological half-life as patients remained above baseline for 48 weeks after 2 applications...whereas, the effects of Minoxidil last 12 hours, thereby requiring TWICE DAILY application! 

So in comparison to Minoxidil, it provided far greater potency in terms of increasing the terminal hair count. 
__________________________________________________  _____________

4) Follicular neogenesis (brand new follicles) did NOT occur! Or if it did, it was not statistically significant (i.e. 2.5%)...Hence, it is fair to say it will thicken up recently thinning areas BUT will NOT do much on slick bald areas. 

This was clearly evident in the Ziering photos that was published in October 2012...It had simply thickened up the thinning areas in the *male* patients

5) The potential for toxicity is there...*BUT*
The BUT makes all the difference.... Histogen still does NOT know the safe dose range! So far, they have injected up to 40 injections per session without any signs of toxicity (Zieiring trial). 40 shots would approximately cover a 2.5 cm2 area! 

Their Phase IIb trial which is the "Dose-range finding" trial will clarify this critical question! If we can get 100 injections per session without the risk of toxicity then we will be able to maintain our hairline for a very long time to come! 

CB-03-01 will become available at around the same time to take care of the crown...

__________________________________________________  ______________

Finally, I'd like to say that losing your hair is very traumatic for most. We are all emotional and we all would like this to end! So we are hoping for a silver bullet that will fix everything! Unfortunately, as we all have figured out, there is no such thing...In the future, we will most probably need a combination of treatments to combat AGA! 

What's important is these tools are becoming available...But non of them are perfect and they all will have pros and cons...

Our aim should be to study these therapies thoroughly and get a full picture of what to expect from these treatments rather than what we would like it to do...

My aim was to help those with no medical background to fully understand what was being presented by Histogen without bias! No one likes to be the carrier of bad news and many are upset with me for highlighting the possible limitations of Histogen! BUT like I promised, I will NOT be putting any of you guys at risk of a possible harm by being overly optimistic and blinded by false hope! I will never forgive myself if I missed a critical piece of information and put some of you guys in the harms way! 

Hope that makes ppl a bit more happy! 


Regards,

- Semi-optimistic Des  :Smile:

----------


## Scientalk56

Desmond, how about you be the president of baldies  :Big Grin: 
We should have elections lol!

just a question regarding temples:




> HSC treatment showed hair growth in the temporal recession region at 12 weeks and continuing through 48 weeks, with *strong efficacy in terminal hair count*.


 Total hair count means both vellus and terminal hair count, and all we need is cosmetically significant hair on temples (terminal).. so why we are looking at total hair count?

I think we really need to see pictures of temples of the patients (and also the rest of the scalp) to decide whether the growth is good or not..
whether the numbers are good or bad - we still need to see some pics!


Let's hop for the best  :Smile:

----------


## Desmond84

> Desmond, how about you be the president of baldies 
> We should have elections lol!
> 
> just a question regarding temples:
> 
> 
> 
> Total hair count means both vellus and terminal hair count, and all we need is cosmetically significant hair on temples (terminal).. so why we are looking at total hair count?
> 
> ...


 You are right! If you increase terminal hair count by 25% and reduce vellus hair count by 5% then where did 20% of those terminal hairs come from? And if they are new hairs then why doesn't the number of Total hair count reflect that?

I really don't know the answer to that unfortunately! Iron_man is a great trichologist though and might enlighten us!

Another important point that I didn't mention was that Total Hair count increased by 10% in other areas. Only the temples ended up with a 2.5% increase in hair count!

----------


## Desmond84

Actually when you think about, these are percentages NOT hair count numbers...so, if the numbers of vellus hairs does not equal terminal hairs, then comparing the change in % of vellus hairs to change in % terminal hairs is irrelevant!

Total hair count is relevant to those guys that are trying to grow hair on areas that are pretty bare!

----------


## garethbale

> You are right! If you increase terminal hair count by 25&#37; and reduce vellus hair count by 5% then where did 20% of those terminal hairs come from? And if they are new hairs then why doesn't the number of Total hair count reflect that?
> 
> I really don't know the answer to that unfortunately! Iron_man is a great trichologist though and might enlighten us!
> 
> Another important point that I didn't mention was that Total Hair count increased by 10% in other areas. Only the temples ended up with a 2.5% increase in hair count!


 
Your point about temple hair was something I had picked up on earlier Desmond, I think.  If terminal hair haid increased on other areas of the scalp but only marginally on the hairline/temples, that's not that bad.  The temples seem very hard to regrow hair anyway.

As for your suggestion about asking for IM's advice, please don't entertain him!!!  

We'll just get a comment with loads of unnecessary inverted commas, words in capitals, 'rolling eyes' smileys and to finish it off, the standard '_pffffttt_'  
 :Smile:

----------


## Desmond84

LOL, as much as I love Iron_Man, he can be condescending sometimes and can upset ppl...I really hope he changes for the better !

Everyone's contribution counts though...as long as we are civilised  :Smile:  He has this uncanny ability to read between the lines which can be useful lot of the times. He highlighted a lot of points on the last Aderans presentation which I personally missed and was grateful when he pointed them out! 

He has been very quiet about Histogen to my surprise! LOL

__________________________________________________  ________________

You're right about the "site-specific" difference in response though Gareth! I think that is definitely the case... the problem is if we have a limited number of injections, what area will you treat?

----------


## garethbale

> You're right about the "site-specific" difference in response though Gareth! I think that is definitely the case... the problem is if we have a limited number of injections, what area will you treat?


 If not sure if that was a rhetorical question but my answer would be the hairline and temples, as that's the only area I have lost hair.  Which is annoying is also the hardest area to regrow hair  :Smile:

----------


## Thinning87

> LOL, as much as I love Iron_Man, he can be condescending sometimes and can upset ppl...I really hope he changes for the better !
> 
> Everyone's contribution counts though...as long as we are civilised  He has this uncanny ability to read between the lines which can be useful lot of the times. He highlighted a lot of points on the last Aderans presentation which I personally missed and was grateful when he pointed them out! 
> 
> He has been very quiet about Histogen to my surprise! LOL
> 
> __________________________________________________  ________________
> 
> You're right about the "site-specific" difference in response though Gareth! I think that is definitely the case... the problem is if we have a limited number of injections, what area will you treat?


 Dude I can't believe how sad you have been in these past few days. There's been nothing but great news lately!!

----------


## garethbale

> Dude I can't believe how sad you have been in these past few days. There's been nothing but great news lately!!


 I wouldn't say its great but it's not disastrous as some people are making out

----------


## Thinning87

> Guys, when I wrote the initial post, my aim was NOT to write off Histogen. I was simply highlighting the points that were NOT known up until the recent announcement. 
> 
> I think it's important to clear up what these results showed: 
> 
> 1) Histogen was ABLE to INCREASE Terminal hair count by up to 40%! That is VERY GOOD by all of today's standards. 
> 
> 2) The vellus hair count dropped significantly after 24 weeks, because obviously they had turned terminal. 
> 
> 3) The total hair count however, did NOT change all that much in the temporal area (temples). Total hair count in other areas of treatment were NOT provided and hence anything we say about it will be speculation.
> ...


 Most of this was pretty obvious before they released the last presentation.

I guess you're right it is kind of a let down if you expected HSC to cure baldness on its own. But to those who had more realistic expectations this is just exactly what we thought it would be and it will be of great help in the future.

----------


## ResearchNeverfails

> OK, I just finished watching Game of Thrones! What on earth!!!!
> 
> This week just keeps getting worse!


 Me and my wife where about ready to protest the show. SMH I honestly felt sick after it ended. My favorite family is pretty much wiped out now. Long Live the North!

----------


## Desmond84

> Most of this was pretty obvious before they released the last presentation.
> 
> I guess you're right it is kind of a let down if you expected HSC to cure baldness on its own. But to those who had more realistic expectations this is just exactly what we thought it would be and it will be of great help in the future.


 It will be more than helpful for sure! It will definitely be added to our Gold Standard regimen! I personally think it may make Minoxidil redundant for those that obviously can afford it!  :Smile: 





> Me and my wife where about ready to protest the show. SMH I honestly felt sick after it ended. My favorite family is pretty much wiped out now. Long Live the North!


 The North will never forget!  :Wink:

----------


## Phatalis

> Me and my wife where about ready to protest the show. SMH I honestly felt sick after it ended. My favorite family is pretty much wiped out now. Long Live the North!


 The show isn't about good or bad guys winning.. so why protest?? I don't get this. It's a great ****ing show and I love what happened. Cause it's real.

It's not all one sided.. no one gets away unscathed.. just keep watching, you'll see.

----------


## john2399

> The show isn't about good or bad guys winning.. so why protest?? I don't get this. It's a great ****ing show and I love what happened. Cause it's real.
> 
> It's not all one sided.. no one gets away unscathed.. just keep watching, you'll see.


 The lannisters send their regards.

----------


## petewete

is it fair to say this may be an option better suited for people with diffused thinning?

----------


## rdawg

> is it fair to say this may be an option better suited for people with diffused thinning?


 to me it never looked like a true cure or anything, I always thought it would be typically suited for early sufferers.

so yes, if you're a NW1-4 with vellus hairs I think it could bump you up a norwood which is nothing to scoff at.

if oyu're just starting to lose hair(say NW2) and you get on this+fin you could easily get back to your old hair and maintain it.

however it doesnt seem like a solution to save up for IMO, its years away and it's not gonna reverse anyones hairloss entirely it seems(at least not from the latest results).

----------


## KO1

Yes, I suspect it is best for people with diffuse thinning, but obviously, we know nothing yet.


If you're just starting to lose your hair, forget about these treatments, you should focus on keeping what you have with fin or dut or perhaps RU, as they work, and if you get on them early, you will do very well. I wish I'd done that.

----------


## Pentarou

> If you're just starting to lose your hair, forget about these treatments, you should focus on keeping what you have with fin or dut or perhaps RU, as they work, and if you get on them early, you will do very well. I wish I'd done that.


 Very good advice. Early sufferers should act fast and decisively to save the hair they have with existing proven treatments rather than waiting.

----------


## Phatalis

> Very good advice. Early sufferers should act fast and decisively to save the hair they have with existing proven treatments rather than waiting.


 I don't think this is good advice. As Fin and Dut are dangerous. I'd never reccomend anyone take them.

I don't like the whole "I can handle fin" because even when people say they can you don't know how it's going to react with your endocrine system. Even if it seemingly doesn't do anything you won't know until it's too late. 

I guess I just don't agree with pills that have such side effects. It's not worth it to me. Even if I responded well. I took fin for 3 weeks.. and was just too scared to continue.

My penis is worth more than my hair. Always will be. And I'm not even willing to give any % of a risk for it.

I don't know shit about RU however.

----------


## Phatalis

Oh wait. RU is that experimental shit you need to mix yourself?

See, not worth it to me either. Who knows wtf it does.. and you have to mix it and get a "vessel" or whatever to deliver it.

Just crazy. I mean I understand desperation but damn man.

----------


## Phatalis

Holy shit. I never knew Creatine causes hair loss!!!

I take heavy amounts of creatine and have been for a while..


Welp, **** that shit!! this should be posted somewhere!

----------


## clandestine

You're complacent.

That's alright, too. But don't try to colour it some other way. You're complacent.

But yeah get off Creatine brah. Just use whey I guess.

----------


## Phatalis

> You're complacent.
> 
> That's alright, too. But don't try to colour it some other way. You're complacent.
> 
> But yeah get off Creatine brah. Just use whey I guess.


 I mean, I'm just too scared of fin I guess. If someone goes down that road.. more power to em!

Didn't mean to come off as an ass.

And yeah no more creatine!  :Smile:

----------


## Phatalis

Also not complacent.. I'm scared shitless. I'm just going for an HT soon for my hairline and waiting on CB.. I just want to trust what i'm doing to my body. 

If the sides of fin were mild pain every now and then.. or like.. muscle cramps.. or occasional dry mouth I wouldn't give a shit...

But loss of libido and ED.. not worth it

----------


## Phatalis

Also.. if I knew more about RU.. (i'm admittedly ignorant) I would consider.

From what I read you need to mix it almost daily... its expensive and doesn't last long and its relatively unknown as per side effects...

That shit just scares me.. and while I do have money.. the ritual of applying something that has a relatively unknown amount of background to it as per side effects AND effectiveness doesn't seem worth it.

But if people right now said RU is the shit, better than fin with low side effects and none really relating to loss of libido or ED I'd scoop it up in a heart beat to keep my hair.

How long will RU last anyhow? I know fin loses effectiveness after 7 or so years.

----------


## Phatalis

lol sorry for derailing this guys.. let's get back to histogen..

I hope it works... I mean even for maintaining my hair.. i hope its like fin without the sides... I'd be super happy

----------


## Thinning87

awesome

----------


## goldbondmafia

So I guess everyone has mixed reactions to Histogens results? I think they are taking a step in the right direction personally

----------


## Pentarou

> I know fin loses effectiveness after 7 or so years.


 Not true.

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/rese...ts-and-safety/

----------


## Purple Glow

I am very happy with these results.

I am not bald but I am thinning.  At a minimum, I want a product that will:

1.  Stop my hair loss.
2.  Add more terminal hairs.
3.  Allow me to continue to fill in any problem spots using Nanogen.

These results meet my minimum criteria, and it sounds like only 1-2 trips for injections per year.  I'll take that and be happy.  :Smile:

----------


## Javert

> Also not complacent.. I'm scared shitless. I'm just going for an HT soon for my hairline and waiting on CB.. I just want to trust what i'm doing to my body. 
> 
> If the sides of fin were mild pain every now and then.. or like.. muscle cramps.. or occasional dry mouth I wouldn't give a shit...
> 
> But loss of libido and ED.. not worth it


 What exactly is CB?

----------


## Vox

> What exactly is CB?


 It stands for cumulonimbus. You put your head under it, you get some lightning and your hair will regrow! Plus, the highly ionized water pouring down will help you to maintain your new hair!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Seriously, there are some older threads here discussing it. As of now, it is an experimental drug.

----------


## Javert

Thanks.

----------


## inkt2002

This is a game changer. The likely start of a death spiral for Histogen.  Coming from the VC world, it is quite common for bio start-ups to seek "surplus" funding right before phase results will be disseminated to public for two main reasons- capital raising prior to valuation erosion and capital sought for marketing/product launch which would have a difficult time getting raised with  marginal results indicated.   My guess is that cash will be depleted before Histogen can/will improve product or can hit market with a marginal product.  ETA on marketable product obviously pushed back as well.

----------


## KO1

> I don't think this is good advice. As Fin and Dut are dangerous. I'd never reccomend anyone take them.
> 
> I don't like the whole "I can handle fin" because even when people say they can you don't know how it's going to react with your endocrine system. Even if it seemingly doesn't do anything you won't know until it's too late. 
> 
> I guess I just don't agree with pills that have such side effects. It's not worth it to me. Even if I responded well. I took fin for 3 weeks.. and was just too scared to continue.
> 
> My penis is worth more than my hair. Always will be. And I'm not even willing to give any % of a risk for it.
> 
> *I don't know shit.*


 The boldest part is the only correct statement here.

This is the stupidest piece of advice a young man could ever get. This guy literally knows nothing about this drug, didn't get side effects himself, and now wants to discourage other people from taking the drug. Absolute dumbf**k.

If you're a young man losing his hair, you need to get on medications, and those can be fin, dut, or RU. 

Go to www dot twinshairloss dot com. Then decide which twin you want to be.

----------


## clandestine

> My guess is that cash will be depleted before Histogen can/will improve product or can hit market with a marginal product.  ETA on marketable product obviously pushed back as well.


 Your guess is worthless. 
Less so, even.

----------


## UK_

> This is a game changer. The likely start of a death spiral for Histogen.  Coming from the VC world, it is quite common for bio start-ups to seek "surplus" funding right before phase results will be disseminated to public for two main reasons- capital raising prior to valuation erosion and capital sought for marketing/product launch which would have a difficult time getting raised with  marginal results indicated.   My guess is that cash will be depleted before Histogen can/will improve product or can hit market with a marginal product.  ETA on marketable product obviously pushed back as well.


 Riiight.. great.. and you are?

----------


## Thinning87

> This is a game changer. The likely start of a death spiral for Histogen.  Coming from the VC world, it is quite common for bio start-ups to seek "surplus" funding right before phase results will be disseminated to public for two main reasons- capital raising prior to valuation erosion and capital sought for marketing/product launch which would have a difficult time getting raised with  marginal results indicated.   My guess is that cash will be depleted before Histogen can/will improve product or can hit market with a marginal product.  ETA on marketable product obviously pushed back as well.


 these are not marginal results Mr. "Kleiner Perkins".... if you're going to come on an anonymous thread and act like you know something, at least do some research prior to giving a rating on a company in a market you know nothing about.

----------


## inkt2002

> these are not marginal results Mr. "Kleiner Perkins".... if you're going to come on an anonymous thread and act like you know something, at least do some research prior to giving a rating on a company in a market you know nothing about.


 Don't need to be an expert of an industry, rather an expert of the VC world to know whats going on.  Whenever a company tries to jam through "surplus funding" right before phase results, you know a dark cloud is on the horizon.  Try to raise as much capital at baseline valuation right before valuation takes a hit.   Seen it way too many times before.  They call it the death spiral.  
Good luck.

----------


## clandestine

Right.

To reiterate, your opinion is worthless.

----------


## inkt2002

> Right.
> 
> To reiterate, your opinion is worthless.


 Hopefully they come to you for funding.

----------


## clandestine

> Hopefully they come to you for funding.


  :Smile:

----------


## Kiwi

> Don't need to be an expert of an industry, rather an expert of the VC world to know whats going on.  Whenever a company tries to jam through "surplus funding" right before phase results, you know a dark cloud is on the horizon.  Try to raise as much capital at baseline valuation right before valuation takes a hit.   Seen it way too many times before.  They call it the death spiral.  
> Good luck.


 Blah blah blah blah blah (your crap comments needed at least 5 blahs). More speculative crap from a forum newbie. Thanks!

1) Histogen have shown "cosmetic" results.
2) Desmond got it wrong regarding toxicity 
3) More Histogen trials start this year

That's what's important to me. Friends you can believe this chump or follow the Histogen facts.

I bet this guy wears a cheap pin stripe suit so he can feel like one of the big boys but I can assure you Histogen is alive and well.

----------


## bibz

@Kiwi
Mazel tov my friend, 100% agree

----------


## inkt2002

Answer me this- If you were a founder, would you seek to raise "surplus" (obviously not for immediate use) funding before Phase I/IIa results are disseminated or after if the results would increase the companies valuation?

And why were they unsuccessful raising it?

Both rhetorical.

----------


## clandestine

Sorry brah, you're ignoring factual occurrences and delving into speculation. Moreover, you're presenting said speculation in a manner which would have people believe its factual.

You're full of shit.

----------


## inkt2002

> Sorry brah, you're ignoring factual occurrences and delving into speculation. Moreover, you're presenting said speculation in a manner which would have people believe its factual.
> 
> You're full of shit.


 I'll take that as "Obviously after the results are released".

----------


## Kiwi

> Answer me this- If you were a founder, would you seek to raise "surplus" (obviously not for immediate use) funding before Phase I/IIa results are disseminated or after if the results would increase the companies valuation?
> 
> And why were they unsuccessful raising it?
> 
> Both rhetorical.


 You have no place here Mr Cheap suit and speculation. If you feel like spinning this type of crap go do it in the Gho threads. We're used to crap and spin over there.

This is the cutting edge forum where we members talk about new tech. You're speculating. Now Gho away.

----------


## inkt2002

> You have no place here Mr Cheap suit and speculation. If you feel like spinning this type of crap go do it in the Gho threads. We're used to crap and spin over there.
> 
> This is the cutting edge forum where we members talk about new tech. You're speculating. Now Gho away.


 Unfortunately straw man and wishful thinking do not make for a compelling counter to my concerns/questions.  You appear far removed from the real world.   Good luck with Histogen.  And I mean that.

In the VC world, there is an old saying "Evaluate on what they do, not what they say".  The course of action Histogen has taken leading up to their result dissemination speaks louder than the results themselves.  For an outsider/forum hopeful like yourself, it will be time that will have to prove me right.

----------


## Thinning87

> Don't need to be an expert of an industry, rather an expert of the VC world to know whats going on.  Whenever a company tries to jam through "surplus funding" right before phase results, you know a dark cloud is on the horizon.  Try to raise as much capital at baseline valuation right before valuation takes a hit.   Seen it way too many times before.  They call it the death spiral.  
> Good luck.


 They're not just looking for new funding, they're looking for a partner that will contribute to later phase development and provide marketing and sales infrastructure. 

Note that these "new" results are nothing different from what we all knew a year ago, but the emotional volatility of the forum has made it look like these are new unsuccessful results.

It's the exact same thing Replicel has done and I don't see you telling us Replicel is also finished...

----------


## Thinning87

> Blah blah blah blah blah (your crap comments needed at least 5 blahs). More speculative crap from a forum newbie. Thanks!
> 
> 1) Histogen have shown "cosmetic" results.
> 2) Desmond got it wrong regarding toxicity 
> 3) More Histogen trials start this year
> 
> That's what's important to me. Friends you can believe this chump or follow the Histogen facts.
> 
> I bet this guy wears a cheap pin stripe suit so he can feel like one of the big boys but I can assure you Histogen is alive and well.


 well we don't know #3 is confirmed, we all assumed that would be on schedule but we never got official confirmation of this

----------


## Thinning87

> Answer me this- If you were a founder, would you seek to raise "surplus" (obviously not for immediate use) funding before Phase I/IIa results are disseminated or after if the results would increase the companies valuation?
> 
> And why were they unsuccessful raising it?
> 
> Both rhetorical.


 right but you're making wrongful assumptions:

1) Their results are far off from being bad. It's not a definitive cure, but it's a hell of a lot better than anything else on the market and beats most of what is being developed. They have the most solid results of all the new companies

2) Whoever said they are looking for "surplus" funds - they already raised significant amounts of money and they are sticking to a business plan that is common in the biotech world, which is to partner up with someone after early stage development. They are showing results that they have shown a year ago

These are fundamental facts that you should take into consideration in your analysis

----------


## Phatalis

> The boldest part is the only correct statement here.
> 
> This is the stupidest piece of advice a young man could ever get. This guy literally knows nothing about this drug, didn't get side effects himself, and now wants to discourage other people from taking the drug. Absolute dumbf**k.
> 
> If you're a young man losing his hair, you need to get on medications, and those can be fin, dut, or RU. 
> 
> Go to www dot twinshairloss dot com. Then decide which twin you want to be.


 I wasn't giving "advice" to anyone asshat. I was making a statement upon my own decisions for me.

No need to be a ****ing douchebag. Fin scares me. I'm one of those "young guys" who could be totally fine if I just took fin right now probably. But I'm too scared and the risks aren't worth it.

----------


## Phatalis

I'd take fin in a heartbeat if I knew I'd be ok

----------


## ryan555

> I'd take fin in a heartbeat if I knew I'd be ok


 Your chances are probably greater that you'll get run over by a car than having persistent side effects from propecia.  All the hysteria-spreaders have done a massive disservice to you young guys.  15 years ago, no one knew about persistent side effects, no one talked about them, and no one ever seemed to get them.  Then some Swedish guy claims he was permanently neutered by the drug, propeciahelp pops up, and suddenly half the guys taking it claim they have terrible side effects.  Nevermind that an independent study of the subject recently showed nearly the exact same side effect incidence and profile that Merck reported all those years ago.  Stop worrying.  It's all blown out of proportion and you will never get your hair back once it falls out.

----------


## Kiwi

> Your chances are probably greater that you'll get run over by a car than having persistent side effects from propecia.  All the hysteria-spreaders have done a massive disservice to you young guys.  15 years ago, no one knew about persistent side effects, no one talked about them, and no one ever seemed to get them.  Then some Swedish guy claims he was permanently neutered by the drug, propeciahelp pops up, and suddenly half the guys taking it claim they have terrible side effects.  Nevermind that an independent study of the subject recently showed nearly the exact same side effect incidence and profile that Merck reported all those years ago.  Stop worrying.  It's all blown out of proportion and you will never get your hair back once it falls out.


 Actually I lost my erections. And I'm young and fit. All good now but it made me depressed and anxious. Not only was I depressed about my hair I'd lost my manhood. I was royally upset and thank god I got my mojo back.

It is a risk no matter how small and fin users need all the information to make their own decisions.

To say there were no fin side effects claims 15 years ago is like saying there was no Internet 15 years ago. Snap!

----------


## ryan555

> Actually I lost my erections. And I'm young and fit. All good now but it made me depressed and anxious. Not only was I depressed about my hair I'd lost my manhood. I was royally upset and thank god I got my mojo back.
> 
> It is a risk no matter how small and fin users need all the information to make their own decisions.
> 
> To say there were no fin side effects claims 15 years ago is like saying there was no Internet 15 years ago. Snap!


 I didn't say there weren't side effects, I said they're greatly blown out of proportion.  There are studies like the Japanese one posted in some other thread in here that showed lower incidence of side effects for guys on a low dose of propecia than guys on a placebo.  No matter who studies this, no one seems to be able to reproduce either long term persistent side effects or side effect rates over about 2&#37;. And yet magically, when you go online, more like half of the guys taking it claim to have terrible side effects.  Meanwhile, loads of young guys are reading this and going bald, spending their lives obsessing and hanging out talking to whackos on hair loss forums.  That is a travesty.

----------


## Kiwi

> Unfortunately straw man and wishful thinking do not make for a compelling counter to my concerns/questions.  You appear far removed from the real world.   Good luck with Histogen.  And I mean that.
> 
> In the VC world, there is an old saying "Evaluate on what they do, not what they say".  The course of action Histogen has taken leading up to their result dissemination speaks louder than the results themselves.  For an outsider/forum hopeful like yourself, it will be time that will have to prove me right.


 More blah. Thanks mr big VC man. So what big vc deals that we all know about have you been directly responsible for?

Your contribution to this thread and forum is what is removed. My information is based on what I've read from Histogen.

NOT based on what they haven't said 'oh wow I can say big words like VC so now Im an authority on Histogen and can fill in the blanks for them'.

Also are you a chemical / pharmaceutical scientist as well as a pin stripe VC big wig? Just wondering.

----------


## Kiwi

> I didn't say there weren't side effects, I said they're greatly blown out of proportion.  There are studies like the Japanese one posted in some other thread in here that showed lower incidence of side effects for guys on a low dose of propecia than guys on a placebo.  No matter who studies this, no one seems to be able to reproduce either long term persistent side effects or side effect rates over about 2%. And yet magically, when you go online, more like half of the guys taking it claim to have terrible side effects.  Meanwhile, loads of young guys are reading this and going bald, spending their lives obsessing and hanging out talking to whackos on hair loss forums.


 So you're not denying I lost my erections but I did manage to get them back  :Wink:

----------


## ryan555

Why are you guys arguing with this dude.  I am an entrepreneur and had to deal with VC's early on before I had legitimate investors (private equity) buy me out.  VC's are some of the dumbest and most arrogant people you will ever meet.  It's better to just tell them they're right and then laugh at them when they walk out of the room.

----------


## ryan555

> So you're not denying I lost my erections but I did manage to get them back


 Not denying a thing, nor do I want to check what's going on in your pants to confirm.  Congratulations on your erections, by the way.

----------


## clandestine

ryan come and check out my fin induced gynecomastia dude, I'll show you "persistent side effects".

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Kiwi

> Not denying a thing, nor do I want to check what's going on in your pants to confirm.  Congratulations on your erections, by the way.


 haha - normally its the ladies that congratulate me about those (not ladies like old whats her name on the boards that always tells the boys to use fin... tracey!!!). I think she's anti erection. And now I'm just being silly.

I'm actually like you. I've got investment from both angels and VCs and 'most' of them got lucky and have money to splash around. 

I'm sure Microsoft has plenty of shite unhappy VC's right now. Probably so does Apple after their latest news. 

Mr Pin Stripe has nothing to offer on these boards and I'm here solely to point that out to new members that care about Histogen and the small facts that we do have. 

Nobody here gives a shite about his VC blah. Or his I'm making stuff up by filling in the blanks speculation.

Its not fair for depressed newcomers, coming here to find some hope, only to read this shite and perhaps take his misinformation as gospel. The last thing we need in this world and particularly these forums are more haters. Especially newbies that read one or two threads and think they know it all.

----------


## ryan555

> haha - normally its the ladies that congratulate me about those (not ladies like old whats her name on the boards that always tells the boys to use fin... tracey!!!). I think she's anti erection. And now I'm just being silly.
> 
> I'm actually like you. I've got investment from both angels and VCs and 'most' of them got lucky and have money to splash around. 
> 
> I'm sure Microsoft has plenty of shite unhappy VC's right now. Probably so does Apple after their latest news. 
> 
> Mr Pin Stripe has nothing to offer on these boards and I'm here solely to point that out to new members that care about Histogen and the small facts that we do have. 
> 
> Nobody here gives a shite about his VC blah. Or his I'm making stuff up by filling in the blanks speculation.
> ...


 They were useful in the 90's when entrepreneurs could convince them that their free smiley download website with neither revenue nor a business plan was worth $100 million.

----------


## garethbale

Maybe I'm ignorant but what does VC stand for?

----------


## Thinning87

> Maybe I'm ignorant but what does VC stand for?


 Venture capital

----------


## Kiwi

> Maybe I'm ignorant but what does VC stand for?


 In these forums absolutely nothing :P

Unless you're mr big shot pin stripe speculating around what Histogen hasn't told us yet. 

Well I hope that's the last we see of him unless he has something positive to offer.

----------


## FearTheLoss

God I really think people overreacted to this update. They haven't even done efficiency testing, and so far we have something that is better than propecia and practically SIDE FREE. 

HSC needs to come out NOW.

----------


## rdawg

> God I really think people overreacted to this update. They haven't even done efficiency testing, and so far we have something that is better than propecia and practically SIDE FREE. 
> 
> HSC needs to come out NOW.


 haha I dont think they lowered my hopes or anything, they just didn't excite me like crazy I suppose, but i definitely want to see how their next trial goes!

the fact is this stuff works! and I want to use it when it comes out!! Barring it costing a ridiculous price that is.

----------


## Thinning87

> I'm actually like you. I've got investment from both angels and VCs and 'most' of them got lucky and have money to splash around. 
> 
> I'm sure Microsoft has plenty of shite unhappy VC's right now. Probably so does Apple after their latest news. 
> 
> Mr Pin Stripe has nothing to offer on these boards and I'm here solely to point that out to new members that care about Histogen and the small facts that we do have. 
> 
> Nobody here gives a shite about his VC blah. Or his I'm making stuff up by filling in the blanks speculation.
> 
> Its not fair for depressed newcomers, coming here to find some hope, only to read this shite and perhaps take his misinformation as gospel. The last thing we need in this world and particularly these forums are more haters. Especially newbies that read one or two threads and think they know it all.


 The concept of when it's best to raise funds is not wrong in itself, but he's applying this concept in a more complex situation he evidently hasn't fully studied.

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, 

I came across an article today regarding drug development and it was so spot on regarding the current situation of Histogen that I thought I should post it here:

__________________________________________________  _____________

*Challenges of Biotech*

The challenges facing the biotech firms in 2013 are acute. Once viewed as a source of fresh innovation, many biotech companies with new molecules or technology platforms are struggling to access capital, and are finding it increasingly difficult to find large pharmaceutical partners willing to take 
over promising products in early-phase development. 

Indeed, a 2010 survey by Lazard indicated that 89% of Big Pharma execs say filling late-stage pipeline is one of the top driving forces in pharma-biotech consolidation, while only 32% chose filling early-stage pipeline as one of the top three factors.

In the wake of the global financial crises, biotech companies are caught between a risk-averse pharmaceutical industry unwilling to license products in early development, and skittish financial markets where access to capital has become increasingly challenging.

As a result, many biotech firms find themselves in the discouraging position of having met their strategic objectives of  progressing a bio-asset to a pre-determined end point of pre-clinical or early clinical development, but unable to find a partner willing to complete clinical development and commercialize the product. This poses a formidable problem for the biotech industry  in three important ways:
*The most expensive part of clinical development is Phase III*, requiring large studies with patients enrolled over a large geographic spread. On average, for every new molecular entity (NME) that reaches registration, 90% or more of the R&D costs occur in Phases II and III. Most biotech companies do not have the financial capital to progress a compound through late stage development. 
*The skills needed for research versus clinical development are very different.* Successful biotech companies have excellent discovery platforms and scientists, but generally lack the knowledge and skills needed for clinical development and the commercial acumen to build value into their late phase studies.

While research and discovery are a physically concentrated activity requiring limited, albeit specialized, infrastructure, *clinical development is a much more expansive global process.* Therefore, many biotech companies often find the challenges of product development nearly insurmountable  the need for cross-functional teams representing clinical pharmacology, medical, regulatory, clinical operations and drug safety, plus strategic marketing input and market access strategies dispersed across geographic regions as diverse as the US, Europe, Japan and China.

__________________________________________________  _____________

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.quintiles.com/assets/0/11...d75b064b9b.pdf

__________________________________________________  _____________

So, even though Histogen has a working formulation, they are facing significant challenges to find a partner to carry out the remaining trials! 

So what do you guys think we could do to help them out? 

Should we be writing petitions to Pfizer, Merck and other big Pharma to provide funding to Histogen! 

We certainly have a strong voice! There are a lot of MPB sufferers out there and thousands alone on this single forum! Let's get the ball rolling or we'll be waiting for a very long time for Phase 2b to start!

----------


## KO1

VCs are sorely needed in this industry. We need more people to invest in startups that could bring these technologies to clinical trials....I'm just at a loss as to why more isn't invested in this, there's no shortage of balding rich men. 

A big part of the problem is that there's an attitude of "nothing can be done"...

----------


## greatjob!

> VC's are some of the dumbest and most arrogant people you will ever meet.  .


 This is may be the most accurate statement every written on these forums. Show me the biggest narcissistic sadist douchebag you can find, and I'll show you a venture capitalist.

----------


## Thinning87

> Hey guys, 
> 
> I came across an article today regarding drug development and it was so spot on regarding the current situation of Histogen that I thought I should post it here:
> 
> __________________________________________________  _____________
> 
> *Challenges of Biotech*
> 
> The challenges facing the biotech firms in 2013 are acute. Once viewed as a source of fresh innovation, many biotech companies with new molecules or technology platforms are struggling to access capital, and are finding it increasingly difficult to find large pharmaceutical partners willing to take 
> ...


 This has been the trend for a few years now and it's not new stuff at all. 

However, this has been true of the industry as a whole, but it doesn't have to be applied to every single company. I directly know top managers in two Southern California biotech start ups who have been able to avoid these problems.

And by the way, this trend seems to be inverting as some big pharma's are investing in new companies in association with local VC's who provide guidance and expertise. Big pharma's have been taking a little bit more risk recently, which seems to be a result of the fact that they don't have much new stuff in development.

Ultimately, I would keep in mind that this is not another drug to lose weight. We are talking about products that would do a great deal against hair loss, which should be looked at differently from the biotech industry as sa whole. I say Histogen has multiple potential candidate partners and they are negotiating for the best deal they can get.

And by the way I don't understand why everyone is so negative here, we have had an overdose of good news in the past weeks. I think simply there is nothing to talk about for some time and the frustration simply gets funneled in here in the form of pessimism. 

Keep positive guys we are headed towards a hairy future! It's just not going to happen in the short run unfortunately... I got my money on Follica.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Guys, when I wrote the initial post, my aim was NOT to write off Histogen. I was simply highlighting the points that were NOT known up until the recent announcement. 
> 
> I think it's important to clear up what these results showed: 
> 
> 1) Histogen was ABLE to INCREASE Terminal hair count by up to 40&#37;! That is VERY GOOD by all of today's standards. 
> 
> 2) The vellus hair count dropped significantly after 24 weeks, because obviously they had turned terminal. 
> 
> 3) The total hair count however, did NOT change all that much in the temporal area (temples). Total hair count in other areas of treatment were NOT provided and hence anything we say about it will be speculation.
> ...


 +1

I have been saying this forever - that histogen is basically minox on steroids that won't benefit NW7s.

The likelihood is, this will be used in conjunction with a HT. And is a great treatment for those have are NW1 - NW4s as we can:

1) say bye bye to propecia and it sides
2) bye bye to minox

and 

3) Have much more aggressive HTs, without worrying about losing hair behind it, due to being able to get a top up.

The only thing stopping Dr's from being aggressive with their HT is hairloss.

Note:
If you are a NW2 in your mid-to late twenties, without crown thinning, chances are you wont lose your hair anytime soon. Tend to find the high norwoods lose their hair earlier.

Stay off the forums.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Pretty much it. You can only put your life on hold for so long. Focus on improving yourself and making the most of what you have.
> 
> Yes, hairloss sucks, especially at a young age, but there's very little you can do about it right now. It's tough accepting something when you know you're not living up to your full potential. But when there's no other options, you have to move on.
> 
> I still think it's worth keeping up with the forums periodically to read about the latest developments. I'm sure the next couple of years will bring alot more positive information than the last year or so. But obviously you have to keep it from being compulsive.


 Great post.

Being a NW2, I have accepted that I am one, despite hating it. But glad my hairloss is slow. I have like you said stayed off the forums. Only to check back periodically.

I am finding the time is going by A LOT quicker, whereas when I was checking this place every day, it felt like things were going at snails place, plus my obssession with hairloss increased.

----------


## john2399

> +1
> 
> I have been saying this forever - that histogen is basically minox on steroids that won't benefit NW7s.
> 
> The likelihood is, this will be used in conjunction with a HT. And is a great treatment for those have are NW1 - NW4s as we can:
> 
> 1) say bye bye to propecia and it sides
> 2) bye bye to minox
> 
> ...


 We still are prob going to need propecia still so i wouldnt go that far. Def bye bye to minox tho.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> We still are prob going to need propecia still so i wouldnt go that far. Def bye bye to minox tho.


 Why would we need propecia, when this thickens up thinning hair, unlike minox - it is not cosmetic either - it is reversing the damage DHT has caused.

Just keep getting it topped up every 24 weeks.

----------


## Kiwi

> So, even though Histogen has a working formulation, they are facing significant challenges to find a partner to carry out the remaining trials! 
> 
> So what do you guys think we could do to help them out? 
> 
> Should we be writing petitions to Pfizer, Merck and other big Pharma to provide funding to Histogen! 
> 
> We certainly have a strong voice! There are a lot of MPB sufferers out there and thousands alone on this single forum! Let's get the ball rolling or we'll be waiting for a very long time for Phase 2b to start!


 How do you know that they are facing challenges for carrying out the remaining trials? I've not read anything official from Histogen to that effect :/

----------


## Kiwi

> I think it's important to clear up what these results showed: 
> 
> *) The total hair count however, did NOT change all that much in the temporal area (temples). Total hair count in other areas of treatment were NOT provided and hence anything we say about it will be speculation.
> 
> *) The potential for toxicity is there...*BUT*
> The BUT makes all the difference.... Histogen still does NOT know the safe dose range! So far, they have injected up to 40 injections per session without any signs of toxicity (Zieiring trial). 40 shots would approximately cover a 2.5 cm2 area!


 Are you so sure? Histogen explicitly said that HSC works on typically hard to treat areas such as your temples.

My understanding is that the only thing HSC is toxic to are cancer cells!!!

Also Desmond - do you think that the next phase is the riskiest phase since they are trying to increase potency? Also you do realise that IF they do manage to increase potency and prove safety at the same time then we are all in luck!!!

----------


## k3nk3n

Sorry guys but a little off topic here but has anyone contacted Histogen or Dr.Gail for the pass few days?  I have been emailing with Dr.Gail for a couple of weeks about when will the next sponsored trail will begin.  She usually relies in a day or 2, but now it's been a week and still no words from her. 

Has anyone been in contact with her? Or maybe she doesnt want to answer my questions lol

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Sorry guys but a little off topic here but has anyone contacted Histogen or Dr.Gail for the pass few days?  I have been emailing with Dr.Gail for a couple of weeks about when will the next sponsored trail will begin.  She usually relies in a day or 2, but now it's been a week and still no words from her. 
> 
> Has anyone been in contact with her? Or maybe she doesnt want to answer my questions lol


 My guess is they don't want to release any information to the public right now because every time they do people overreact and make wild assumptions. We get proof of a treatment that is better than minox and fin in their last results (with no loss of the dick, mind or puffy face) ...and people call it a fail????? WTF

----------


## rdawg

> My guess is they don't want to release any information to the public right now because every time they do people overreact and make wild assumptions. We get proof of a treatment that is better than minox and fin in their last results (with no loss of the dick, mind or puffy face) ...and people call it a fail????? WTF


 lmao agreed, this stuff works.

IMO this and Bimatoprost are the first generation of products that will actually give us noticeable gains but not fullout cures.

I think Follica and the whole wounding thing will the be next generation of products, to actually get us near NW0 status.

anything that works better than fin or min is a success in my eyes, the only dissapointing part is how far away this stuff is!(at least 2-3 years)

----------


## FearTheLoss

> lmao agreed, this stuff works.
> 
> IMO this and Bimatoprost are the first generation of products that will actually give us noticeable gains but not fullout cures.
> 
> I think Follica and the whole wounding thing will the be next generation of products, to actually get us near NW0 status.
> 
> anything that works better than fin or min is a success in my eyes, the only dissapointing part is how far away this stuff is!(at least 2-3 years)


 I agree, hopefully it is closer to 2 years haha...

but who knows what aderans has up their sleeves as well. They are supposed to be releasing a product in 2014...but they leave us in the dark. 

I have high hopes for Follica, but I think replicel will be the cure..in 6-8 years.

----------


## ar50

man thats to long.

I really hope they invent some kind of Limitless drug and some of these scientists uses it and finds the cure in 1 week and we all will be happy.

----------


## rdawg

> man thats to long.
> 
> I really hope they invent some kind of Limitless drug and some of these scientists uses it and finds the cure in 1 week and we all will be happy.


 short term(as in like a year or so) we could get topical finasteride so there's that.

There's also ALOT going on in terms of grey market products that inhibit PGD2, just gotta find the right one, which will only take a few months hopefully.

we also have the chance of what desmond was talking about, where they create human organs for testing which would shorten the FDA process alot! but that's probably years away too haha.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> short term(as in like a year or so) we could get topical finasteride so there's that.
> 
> There's also ALOT going on in terms of grey market products that inhibit PGD2, just gotta find the right one, which will only take a few months hopefully.
> 
> we also have the chance of what desmond was talking about, where they create human organs for testing which would shorten the FDA process alot! but that's probably years away too haha.


 topical finasteride reduced serum DHT close to the same as oral...people who get sides from oral fin will still get sides from topical...but topical will be more effective. So topical is only good if you can handle fin....sucks, i know.

----------


## Pate

> topical finasteride reduced serum DHT close to the same as oral...people who get sides from oral fin will still get sides from topical...but topical will be more effective. So topical is only good if you can handle fin....sucks, i know.


 But if it's more effective for a given dose, those sensitive to fin could use a smaller dose for the same effect as 1mg internally.

Which would be good. They might only have to apply 0.2mg for the same effect as 1mg pill, which means less sides.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> But if it's more effective for a given dose, those sensitive to fin could use a smaller dose for the same effect as 1mg internally.
> 
> Which would be good. They might only have to apply 0.2mg for the same effect as 1mg pill, which means less sides.


 Yeah that is true, I hope they have that in mind when they are making it. Hopefully they will produce it like minox....

example: 2% for people with sides on oral fin, or 5% for people who can handle fin.

----------


## 25 going on 65

> topical finasteride reduced serum DHT close to the same as oral...people who get sides from oral fin will still get sides from topical...but topical will be more effective. So topical is only good if you can handle fin....sucks, i know.


 Why would topical be more effective?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Why would topical be more effective?


 scalp dht was reduced by something like 25% more than oral fin.

----------


## bibz

Dude the next topical fin will give very less sides in comparaison of oral fin, the vehicule used will give a maximum chance for avoid all theses nasty sexuel sides, and with small dose the benefits will be like 1.25mg fin with nearly no side at all, its a very great news to all fin responder but a good news too for ones who get sides from it

----------


## ryan555

> Dude the next topical fin will give very less sides in comparaison of oral fin, the vehicule used will give a maximum chance for avoid all theses nasty sexuel sides, and with small dose the benefits will be like 1.25mg fin with nearly no side at all, its a very great news to all fin responder but a good news too for ones who get sides from it


 You guys are way too optimistic.  The study showed that the serum DHT levels dropped the same as oral fin, meaning it is absorbed through your scalp as if you had swallowed it.  The only benefit is that it reduced scalp DHT a little more than oral (25%), probably because its localized to that area.  So even if you can reduce the dose by 25% and get the same benefit to hair, I seriously doubt that it is going to make a huge difference for side effects.  You think if a guy with bad sides on 1 mg Propecia dropped to .75 mg everything would go away?  I seriously doubt that.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> You guys are way too optimistic.  The study showed that the serum DHT levels dropped the same as oral fin, meaning it is absorbed through your scalp as if you had swallowed it.  The only benefit is that it reduced scalp DHT a little more than oral (25%), probably because its localized to that area.  So even if you can reduce the dose by 25% and get the same benefit to hair, I seriously doubt that it is going to make a huge difference for side effects.  You think if a guy with bad sides on 1 mg Propecia dropped to .75 mg everything would go away?  I seriously doubt that.


 no, but a 2% solution could... 

I.E. we get the benefits of .2mg oral propecia (which works) and the side effects of practically no propecia

----------


## bibz

Was on 1mg fin during one year with horrible side, after several month break i go trought 0,25mg dose, im in since 7 month, no more sides and still effective

----------


## KO1

^Yep, some people's sides dissipate with a lower dosage.

Merck's recommended dosage of 1mg is logical, as it will likely give the best response for the most people, but some may need less.

----------


## ar50

So this topical fin has no side effects? and it will come in 1 year?

----------


## KO1

^Nobody knows. Fin induces side effect in only a small number of people, and most will not need a topical application of the drug, so I would be skeptical of a company releasing Topical Fin.

----------


## ar50

but you know what it is? I really believe the fact that it induces a small number of people. 
But what i wonder is why there was such a big news about all these men having permanent erection problems?

I understand nobody knows about the effects of the medicine but does someone know about the possible release date or is date unknown to?

----------


## KO1

Most people have no issue with the drug, a small number get sides, an even smaller number get long term sides, that's really all there is to it.

There is no company, that I know of that is working on topical fin. It's only been discussed as a theoretical possibility.

----------


## rdawg

> but you know what it is? I really believe the fact that it induces a small number of people. 
> But what i wonder is why there was such a big news about all these men having permanent erection problems?
> 
> I understand nobody knows about the effects of the medicine but does someone know about the possible release date or is date unknown to?


 date is unknown, but it wouldnt have to go through the same FDA processes as its already approved right.

I believe doctors can mix and prescribe it now, but someone can correct me on that, I think they have to test it to SOME extent  before they can.

Im only curious for it as it may have more efficacy being localised directly to the hair.

----------


## KO1

I believe doctors can prescribe it. If you can determine which vehicle to use, you can probably turn it into a solution.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> I believe doctors can prescribe it. If you can determine which vehicle to use, you can probably turn it into a solution.


 Hasson and Wong already prescribes it, but it doesn't have the film that was talked about at the last hair conference...it's a different formula. 

I contacted HW about it and they said they have seen good results with it, better than minox, but not as good as oral fin...and this is because they don't have the film that was added in the last study and presented at the conference.

----------


## rdawg

> Hasson and Wong already prescribes it, but it doesn't have the film that was talked about at the last hair conference...it's a different formula. 
> 
> I contacted HW about it and they said they have seen good results with it, better than minox, but not as good as oral fin...and this is because they don't have the film that was added in the last study and presented at the conference.


 sorry but what do you mean by film?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> sorry but what do you mean by film?


 This was presented at the 7th World Congress for Hair Research 

Topical Finasteride Formulation: The swedes have come up with P-3074 which is a Finasteride 0.25% topical solution mixed with hydroxypropyl-chitosan (HPCH) which is a film-forming agent. They compared using this solution (once daily) with 1mg oral finasteride once daily and what they saw was mind boggling. Topical reduced scalp DHT by 71% whereas oral reduced it by 51%. Furthermore, serum DHT was reduced by about the same in both groups. 

The problem is, people with side effects will still have side effects because the serum DHT is reduced by the same amount...so hopefully they can find a happy medium where serum DHT is low and scalp DHT is still good enough for fin to do what we need it to do. 

The hydroxypropyl-chitosan is the film I was talking about.

----------


## rdawg

> This was presented at the 7th World Congress for Hair Research 
> 
> Topical Finasteride Formulation: The swedes have come up with P-3074 which is a Finasteride 0.25% topical solution mixed with hydroxypropyl-chitosan (HPCH) which is a film-forming agent. They compared using this solution (once daily) with 1mg oral finasteride once daily and what they saw was mind boggling. Topical reduced scalp DHT by 71% whereas oral reduced it by 51%. Furthermore, serum DHT was reduced by about the same in both groups. 
> 
> The problem is, people with side effects will still have side effects because the serum DHT is reduced by the same amount...so hopefully they can find a happy medium where serum DHT is low and scalp DHT is still good enough for fin to do what we need it to do. 
> 
> The hydroxypropyl-chitosan is the film I was talking about.


 Could I make this myself at home? how much is a years worth of HPCH?

what about 0.5% topical, would that affect serum more? Im using proscar so its hard to cut the pills that small.

----------


## Thinning87

can you people talk about this in a different thread?

----------


## Javert

> can you people talk about this in a different thread?


 Seriously.

----------


## FearTheLoss

You can make it at home, in the 7th world hair research thread..somewhere, it has the formula...

and relax guys, histogen isn't going to have another update for 6 months plus...this thread is dead.

----------


## Desmond84

It's now 1st of July 2013. It's been 7 months since Phase 1/2a finished and there is no indication that Phase 2b is going to start any time soon!

*For Histogen, 2013 has been the hibernation year.* There's been no investor meetings discussing plans and objectives for the Phase 2b protocol. There are NO milestones/targets in place and no real-time indication of a possible product release date.

If Histogen's troubles continue combined with the current economic climate, we may NOT see a _Hair Stimulating Complex_ till 2017-2018 if ever!

----------


## Thinning87

> You can make it at home, in the 7th world hair research thread..somewhere, it has the formula...
> 
> and relax guys, histogen isn't going to have another update for 6 months plus...this thread is dead.


 That's not the point, if you want to talk about something else other than Histogen then you should be in a different thread.




> It's now 1st of July 2013. It's been 7 months since Phase 1/2a finished and there is no indication that Phase 2b is going to start any time soon!
> 
> *For Histogen, 2013 has been the hibernation year.* There's been no investor meetings discussing plans and objectives for the Phase 2b protocol. There are NO milestones/targets in place and no real-time indication of a possible product release date.
> 
> If Histogen's troubles continue combined with the current economic climate, we may NOT see a _Hair Stimulating Complex_ till 2017-2018 if ever!


 Relax dude, I know the Aderans news sucks but don't go into negative mode. We have no idea what Histogen has been up to and obviously if they are looking for partners they won't publicize the details of their negotiations

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> It's now 1st of July 2013. It's been 7 months since Phase 1/2a finished and there is no indication that Phase 2b is going to start any time soon!
> 
> *For Histogen, 2013 has been the hibernation year.* There's been no investor meetings discussing plans and objectives for the Phase 2b protocol. There are NO milestones/targets in place and no real-time indication of a possible product release date.
> 
> If Histogen's troubles continue combined with the current economic climate, we may NOT see a _Hair Stimulating Complex_ till 2017-2018 if ever!


 Why doesn't Spencer contact Gail and find out what's going on?

As much as Spencer is a 'consumer advocate', I don't feel he does enough for us. 

The fact that Desmond found out about Aderans before Spencer did, is testament to it. 

It's been 6 months, and we still dont know what's going on with histogen. How hard is it for him to check up with Dr Zeiring or Gail Noughton.

The same goes with Spex.

Joke industry.

----------


## KO1

Is Spencer some sort of all-knowing being that is always up to date on clinical trials that are not public info? Spencer is marketing hair transplants, he does not know more about ARI than we do.

----------


## 25 going on 65

Spencer is legit. If he was actually a hair transplant marketer he would be worse at his job than anyone in the history of marketing, ever

Edit- For those who are new to the show/scene...

1 He recommends meds as a 1st line of defense before surgery, openly saying this is how he has avoided transplants

2 He recommends meds for anyone that has had surgery to avoid unnecessary future procedures

3 He is an advocate of concealer which he openly uses, saying it has helped him avoid transplants

4 He has turned away the majority of all IAHRS applicants as well as their $10k checks (or whatever it costs now for the screening/admission process)

5 He has told young guys not to get transplants as well as diffuse thinners, people with DUPA (thinning donor), etc

----------


## Scientalk56

> It's now 1st of July 2013. It's been 7 months since Phase 1/2a finished and there is no indication that Phase 2b is going to start any time soon!
> 
> *For Histogen, 2013 has been the hibernation year.* There's been no investor meetings discussing plans and objectives for the Phase 2b protocol. There are NO milestones/targets in place and no real-time indication of a possible product release date.
> 
> If Histogen's troubles continue combined with the current economic climate, we may NOT see a _Hair Stimulating Complex_ till 2017-2018 if ever!


 Yeah, it's a joke. and i really don't understand how could such thing happen. I mean, they have the most successful results. who is in charge of marketing  and finding investors? because its seems like he's a failure. srsly.
Specially with such big number of companies trying to find a hair loss treatment, Histogen should hurry up.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Spencer is legit. If he was actually a hair transplant marketer he would be worse at his job than anyone in the history of marketing, ever
> 
> Edit- For those who are new to the show/scene...
> 
> 1 He recommends meds as a 1st line of defense before surgery, openly saying this is how he has avoided transplants
> 
> 2 He recommends meds for anyone that has had surgery to avoid unnecessary future procedures
> 
> 3 He is an advocate of concealer which he openly uses, saying it has helped him avoid transplants
> ...


 The problem with Spencer is not that, its the fact that he has allowed histogen to be silent for 7 months.

----------


## baldymcgee

> The problem with Spencer is not that, its the fact that he has allowed histogen to be silent for 7 months.


 Allowed them to be silent? I can't begin to fathom what this means?

Histogen has a PR department (or agency) ... Spencer can't *make* them talk.

----------


## k3nk3n

> My guess is they don't want to release any information to the public right now because every time they do people overreact and make wild assumptions. We get proof of a treatment that is better than minox and fin in their last results (with no loss of the dick, mind or puffy face) ...and people call it a fail????? WTF


 So Dr.Gail has gotten back to me.  You guys can check out the email that she replied to. Let's hope everything is going well with them.  

Hi xxx,

We are dealing with regulatory consultant to understand exactly what will be needed to do 1-2 physician sponsored INDs in Korea and Taiwan. It is a top priority for us. If successful, both can start in late summer/early fall.

Thanks and take care,

Gail

----------


## Scientalk56

> So Dr.Gail has gotten back to me.  You guys can check out the email that she replied to. Let's hope everything is going well with them.  
> 
> Hi xxx,
> 
> We are dealing with regulatory consultant to understand exactly what will be needed to do *1-2 physician sponsored INDs* in Korea and Taiwan. It is a top priority for us. If successful, *both* can start in late summer/early fall.
> 
> Thanks and take care,
> 
> Gail


 Its very important message! thank you

it means they are going to do* two trials*!! i hope one of them is phase 3
lets hope for the best

----------


## bibz

Very exciting time, we'll all be cured, we just have to be patient and strong!

----------


## Thinning87

Everyone should learn to stop declaring Histogen dead just because they don't give us an update every month.

Great news, thanks for sharing.

----------


## Breaking Bald

I still have hope for Histogen, btw Thinning was it you that was asking me about being put on their news list?

----------


## Thinning87

> I still have hope for Histogen, btw Thinning was it you that was asking me about being put on their news list?


 I emailed them a few months ago to ask if I could be considered for one of their clinical trials, despite the fact that I take Finasteride every 36 hours.

You had mentioned there's a way to get on some kind of mailing list?

Thanks

----------


## Breaking Bald

> I emailed them a few months ago to ask if I could be considered for one of their clinical trials, despite the fact that I take Finasteride every 36 hours.
> 
> You had mentioned there's a way to get on some kind of mailing list?
> 
> Thanks


 Yeah they responded to my reply and said that they had all the information that they needed to put me on the list. So just send them a request and they should do it for you, they just need your email, name and location. Although I don't understand how they know my location because I never actually stated it.

----------


## Thinning87

> Yeah they responded to my reply and said that they had all the information that they needed to put me on the list. So just send them a request and they should do it for you, they just need your email, name and location. Although I don't understand how they know my location because I never actually stated it.


 Thanks for sharing man! What email should I send this information to exactly? I had originally tried "Eileen Naughton" but maybe should I just use the email form in the "contact us" page?

PS Something tells me they read this forum...  :Smile:

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Thanks for sharing man! What email should I send this information to exactly? I had originally tried "Eileen Naughton" but maybe should I just use the email form in the "contact us" page?
> 
> PS Something tells me they read this forum...


 Yeah it was Eileen who replied to me, however it took them over a month to get back to me! So you might have to wait a while.

----------


## Thinning87

> Yeah it was Eileen who replied to me, however it took them over a month to get back to me! So you might have to wait a while.


 mhmhm it's been 5 months now since I sent her an email I think. I guess that means "no" to my questions?

I will send something through the contact form.

Thanks again man!

----------


## Breaking Bald

No problem  :Wink:

----------


## inkt2002

> Don't need to be an expert of an industry, rather an expert of the VC world to know whats going on.  Whenever a company tries to jam through "surplus funding" right before phase results, you know a dark cloud is on the horizon.  Try to raise as much capital at baseline valuation right before valuation takes a hit.   Seen it way too many times before.  They call it the death spiral.  
> Good luck.


 I took a lot of heat last year in this thread when all I did was come in here and try to bring realism to a forum where most's optimism far surpasses reality.  

People were paying mind to what the company had to say, and not what they were doing behind the scenes.  As a VC, I have seen this far too many times.  Hope none didn't put all their hopes into this company.

----------


## hellouser

> I took a lot of heat last year in this thread when all I did was come in here and try to bring realism to a forum where most's optimism far surpasses reality.  
> 
> People were paying mind to what the company had to say, and not what they were doing behind the scenes.  *As a VC, I have seen this far too many times.  Hope none didn't put all their hopes into this company.*


 Even if anyone didn't... would they have gained anything? Or otherwise? The state of the hair loss industry is garbage. The options are crap.

----------


## inkt2002

> Even if anyone didn't... would they have gained anything? Or otherwise? The state of the hair loss industry is garbage. The options are crap.


 Saved from an emotional letdown and time following a shit company.

----------


## MrBlonde

Hi again.

I used to post quite a bit on these forums about a year ago but have been lurking a bit again recently and trying out different programs.  I was on the Vitc TRX2 buzz for  a while.  I continued to lose ground but it did slow things down.  I dumped that and went to RU as I wanted something more effective.

I have now been on RU for about 6-8months and my opinion on that is it doesn't work either.  It slows things down and gives you hair a bit more bounce but nothing else.  I have lost much crown and temple hair on RU.  I don't suffer any sides with it but its not going to maintain what I have, instead it will make my march into baldness much slower.

I used to be right up to date on all the latest news regarding future treatments as you do when your in a big shedding period and stressing about MPB.  I have been catching up the past few days.

Am I right in saying Histogen is dead? 100% dead?  This was the future treatment I think the majority of people held out hope for and now its in the shitcan?  I can't say I'm surprised.

I refuse to take fin and might consider minox but I have come to the conclusion that if you want you hairline back that a hair transplant is the only solution that works.  Its not a super dense hairline but its better then what fin or minox can do for you, even those products don't get your temple hair back.

I have been working my butt off and have enough for a 5000 graft FUE with maybe the possibility of another 2000 somewhere down the road.  Hopefully I can get a good hairline mid vertex and passable crown from this and not have to worry about hairloss.  I am close to pulling the trigger on this.

I guess the point of this rant was to get confirmation of what looks like the bleak outlook for future effective treatments, is there any chance we will see a vendor like Kane sell us a brand or people making thier own version of Histogen after the formula gets leaked?


My other point  is to new posters or people who spend a lot of time on here hoping a thread will one day appear out of the blue promoting some miracle product that will give you back you hair, is to say that is highly unlikely.

There is no cure, only ways of slowing it down, after a while even Minox and fin can stop helping you.  Sometimes you need to step back and realise all the wishful thinking and thread reading will not help you, its good for support and knowledge but that doesn't equal hair.  Sometimes you need to stand back and look at the limited options and make tough decisions.  I am at this stage now after years of looking for something that will help.  The next major input I will have on here is when I start a thread containing the results of my HT.

----------


## Pentarou

> Hi again.
> 
> I used to post quite a bit on these forums about a year ago but have been lurking a bit again recently and trying out different programs.  I was on the Vitc TRX2 buzz for  a while.  I continued to lose ground but it did slow things down.  I dumped that and went to RU as I wanted something more effective.
> 
> I have now been on RU for about 6-8months and my opinion on that is it doesn't work either.  It slows things down and gives you hair a bit more bounce but nothing else.  I have lost much crown and temple hair on RU.  I don't suffer any sides with it but its not going to maintain what I have, instead it will make my march into baldness much slower.
> 
> I used to be right up to date on all the latest news regarding future treatments as you do when your in a big shedding period and stressing about MPB.  I have been catching up the past few days.
> 
> Am I right in saying Histogen is dead? 100% dead?  This was the future treatment I think the majority of people held out hope for and now its in the shitcan?  I can't say I'm surprised.
> ...


 Just get on Finasteride. That's it.

----------


## fred970

What if he doesn't want to because he's afraid of potential sexual side-effects?

----------


## UK_

Finasteride is a joke, yeah its effective, but who wants to have a numb dick for the rest of their life?

----------


## simba

RU works, if thats not working for him then his hairloss is really agressive and even Fin might not work.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Just get on Finasteride. That's it.


 I've thought long and hard (or soft as the case maybe with fin, ba dum tiss) about it but I'm not comfortable with the very real and serious side affects.

If there was a topical version I would be on board.  I have heard DUT is more effective but every day you get a new opinion on some other thread from a guy who may or may not be a total spoofer.

Fin worked for me, Fin made me worse.  Fin crippled my libido, Fin gave me no side effects.  Fin stopped working after x amount of years so I had to up the dose.

I have been of various forms and read thousands of threads and have seen it all before.  I am sure Fin does help you maintain but I ask myself will a HT plus some native hair I can cling onto with fin be worth risking the side effects over a HT without my remaining native hair that doesn't look as dense.

I am at the stage where I have heard enough promises and different stories from stressed out baldies like us, companies and research experts to form my own conclusion.

That conclusion is that baldness is winning, its not even close to being cured and EVERY product out there and I mean all of them, Fin, Minox, Ru etc etc....as it stands they all lose against baldness.  They have varying results but you will still lose ground whilst on them.  You may even shed and look worse on them, you may look better for a while and then need more after you body adjusts but nothing is beating baldness.  Nothing.


I don't mean to drag everyone down.  I too was hopeful once plus I'm a naturally optimistic person by nature, believe it or not, but there is time to face harsh facts.

How long have we heard 5 more years?  Histogen looks beat and the other big hopes could easily topple.  Desmond is right when he says there are exciting advances and research being done but I disagree that a break through from one of them is anywhere close and I mean decades.  I work in a research company of a different kind and I can tell you that research projects get started and  finished every month.  Some last years and churn out very poor results all the time but are marketed as something amazing.  Its the way the researc business works.  The company doing the research has to market itself and protect itself so even when something is clearly not working they will wrap it up with lots of positive spin.  This is a way of protecting itself from bad PR and keeping itself in the market for future research funding and more business and more opportunites to make money and keep itself and its staff in a job.  We are seeing this with Histogen moving into other areas of research.

Even HT's can be very risky in terms of results but I have seen results that are superior to anything a product or drug has to offer.  I hope I can get lucky with mine.

I think it would be better for everyones mental health to make some peace with themselves and to acknowledge the reality of the situation they are in.  People stress about sheds, side effects etc before getting on a treatment.  There are users on this forum who have been around for years and still ask for advise.  Why?  because there is no answer out there and its not coming soon.

A HT, a hair piece or getting on Fin, Minox, RU or CB are your best options.  None of them will get your hair to look like it was before baldness kicked in.  Some may cause very damaging side effects.  RU slowed down my hairloss but I have gaps in my hairline and crown that were not there before I started on RU.  

That is the reality and when you sit back and look at it, well its plainly a bucket of shit.

----------


## hellouser

^So what do you propose as a solution to the state of hair loss solutions?

----------


## Pentarou

> I've thought long and hard (or soft as the case maybe with fin, ba dum tiss) about it but I'm not comfortable with the very real and serious side affects.


 Then you are believing nonsense on the Internet propagated by hysterical panic-mongers.

Besides, all medication have a risk of side effects, that's part of the deal with modern medicine.

See the post by LMS: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=15360

----------


## hellouser

> Then you are believing nonsense on the Internet propagated by hysterical panic-mongers.
> 
> Besides, all medication have a risk of side effects, that's part of the deal with modern medicine.


 The side effects ARE real though, his concerns are legit.

----------


## MrBlonde

> ^So what do you propose as a solution to the state of hair loss solutions?


 This is a ridiculous question.  Not only did I not state I had a solution but any guy at a keyboard who would attempt to say this should be laughed at for a long time.

In fact I clearly stated my conclusion is that there is no solution and its all about facing up to the harsh reality that MPB has not been beaten and doesn't look like it will be anytime soon. 

 How you missed this point when I made it as clear as day is beyond me.  If this sounds harsh, sorry but your question was very poor and made no sense.

----------


## hellouser

> This is a ridiculous question.  Not only did I not state I had a solution but any guy at a keyboard who would attempt to say this should be laughed at for a long time.
> 
> In fact I clearly stated my conclusion is that there is no solution and its all about facing up to the harsh reality that MPB has not been beaten and doesn't look like it will be anytime soon. 
> 
>  How you missed this point when I made it as clear as day is beyond me.  If this sounds harsh, sorry but your question was very poor and made no sense.


 So, you have no proposal and essentially we should just accept our imminent baldness, correct?

----------


## StayThick

Guys, isn't Desmond taking a small amount of Fin? Does anyone know what his dosage is and when he takes it.

Never thought I'd say this...::gasp:: but I'm contemplating taking Fin again, albeit a very, very small dose to help save my drastically thinning hair. God has pushed me to the limit and with modern medicine it's the only thing I got outside of a HT. Problem is, I can't hide from work and getting that done and not being obvious would be impossible. So HT right now is out of the question because I rather just thin then be pointed at and laughed at in my workplace and industry where looks are key.

I also started dating a beautiful woman, I mean 10 and she has made a comment on my hair being thin but says she doesn't care. Those are the ones you keep fellas'. She's a dime and I do not have great hair, it's thin, and disgusting when wet, yet this girl is all about me.

I just want one last shot at maintaining or seeing improvement. So scared to jump on that poison, but I'm left with zero options. Zero.

----------


## MrBlonde

> So, you have no proposal and essentially we should just accept our imminent baldness, correct?


 Did you actually not read my posts or are you just angered by what I am saying to the point of getting petty with me?  I have fought before but I outlined some harsh realities.

 Research companies who spend millions have no answers, how the hell could I or anyone here have?  There is a list of products that will slow down your loss and they come with shitty side effects.   Should we just accept our imminent baldness you ask of me?  No actually YES actually no.  It doesn't matter what you accept or do or which product you try because baldness will march on regardless of whether we like it or not because there is nothing out there to stop it.

My resignation to have a HT comes with its own caveats and I will not get me the head of hair I once had or desire but something I will have to accept and manage.  

Thats is the overall reality of our situation imo.  

Fight all you want.  I hope it works for you.  I'd give every guy on here a full head of hair if I could but thats not how the real world works.  If something golden comes out I'd be the first to buy it.  In reality what do you have? Nothing golden.  Use what you deem fit but at most you will prolong your hairloss with the risks of horrible sides.  Thats the reality.

I listed the pro's and con's of treatments.  How none of them are golden bullets and how some come with sides.  My point that none of them are good is valid.  You yourself state what a shitty selection of options we have for hairloss.  You have already accepted the situation I put forward.

You have started a couple of real popular threads on here which were well documented and show cased your results.  We all thank you for it.  You get asked for lots of advise and people look to you for answers, that is the nature of these forums when people are in a desperate situation. 

 I'd never tell anyone that it isn't worth fighting or giving up hope and I got on RU because of this place and your thread to a lesser extent and RU has not been satisfactory enough for me.  Its not been enough for you either.

For all your/our fighting hairloss, all your/our documentation and experiments you are still here  and considering a HT.  Why? because your still not happy with hairloss and nothing is available for hairloss that is good enough.

This forum is good for support and news and if ever the cure comes it will be posted here first and the community is great but all that great talk and support and research doesn't give us all what we want.  A cure.

Don't have a go just because I am laying it bare.  These are harsh truths but they are truths.  Research companies who spend millions have no answers.  Histogen may come out with something that will help us keep what we have and may add a tiny bit of density, that is the best we can hope from them.  I would not be suprised if they never release anything of worth.

----------


## hellouser

> Did you actually not read my posts or are you just angered by what I am saying to the point of getting petty with me?  I have fought before but I outlined some harsh realities.
> 
>  Research companies who spend millions have no answers, how the hell could I or anyone here have?  There is a list of products that will slow down your loss and they come with shitty side effects.   Should we just accept our imminent baldness you ask of me?  No actually YES actually no.  It doesn't matter what you accept or do or which product you try because baldness will march on regardless of whether we like it or not because there is nothing out there to stop it.
> 
> My resignation to have a HT comes with its own caveats and I will not get me the head of hair I once had or desire but something I will have to accept and manage.  
> 
> Thats is the overall reality of our situation imo.  
> 
> Fight all you want.  I hope it works for you.  I'd give every guy on here a full head of hair if I could but thats not how the real world works.  If something golden comes out I'd be the first to buy it.  In reality what do you have? Nothing golden.  Use what you deem fit but at most you will prolong your hairloss with the risks of horrible sides.  Thats the reality.
> ...


 I raised the question because we need a way out without throwing in the towel.

----------


## MrBlonde

> I raised the question because we need a way out without throwing in the towel.


 Ok we are on the same page in most respects.  A way out?  Its a nice idea that one exists or may come to be but as of now there is not and we are here because of that.  We would have all stepped through that doorway had there been another option.

I like you have been here for a long time, I may have been here longer and many threads and new news cause quite a stir and hope but none of them have been enough.

 We are both still here because our hair is turning to shit.  I am not trowing in the towel.  I am about to have a HT or plan to if I get the courage up, such is the balls it requires, and a HT is a big step for someone to take.  This will hopefully give me something thats passes as hair.  It may not look great.  I will have to take a year out of having a crappy looking head until it grows in.

I am trying to fight this just like you but in reality we are losing.  My HT will be a desperate measure to continue the fight.  I wish you nothing but luck in your fight hellouser but I can't lie or sugar coat things to myself anymore.  Hope and support are good things but they don't change the reality of our situation.  Some guys accept their baldness but we are here becasue it saddens us

Our choices right now and for the foreseeable future are to either

a) go bald and feel like shit
b) accept your faith and shave your head and save money
c) use a product that will slow down but not stop your loss and give you sides
d)  have a HT and hope it looks good on you
e)  wear a wig 

Histogen may bring something that helps us but it will be something to add to point c.  

That is the reality of the situation we are in.  I'm sorry but I can't see any other way  :Frown:

----------


## hellouser

> Our choices right now and for the foreseeable future are to either
> 
> a) go bald and feel like shit
> b) accept your faith and shave your head and save money
> c) use a product that will slow down but not stop your loss and give you sides
> d)  have a HT and hope it looks good on you
> e)  wear a wig 
> 
> Histogen may bring something that helps us but it will be something to add to point c.  
> ...


 I agree 100%, but the (potential) difference between me and some is that it makes me psychotically PISSED OFF.

I want Histogen's treatment expedited, enough of this waiting game bullshit.

----------


## efedrez

> Guys, isn't Desmond taking a small amount of Fin? Does anyone know what his dosage is and when he takes it.
> 
> Never thought I'd say this...::gasp:: but I'm contemplating taking Fin again, albeit a very, very small dose to help save my drastically thinning hair. God has pushed me to the limit and with modern medicine it's the only thing I got outside of a HT. Problem is, I can't hide from work and getting that done and not being obvious would be impossible. So HT right now is out of the question because I rather just thin then be pointed at and laughed at in my workplace and industry where looks are key.
> 
> I also started dating a beautiful woman, I mean 10 and she has made a comment on my hair being thin but says she doesn't care. Those are the ones you keep fellas'. She's a dime and I do not have great hair, it's thin, and disgusting when wet, yet this girl is all about me.
> 
> I just want one last shot at maintaining or seeing improvement. So scared to jump on that poison, but I'm left with zero options. Zero.


 
I'm on the same boat, I took fin for a little more than 10 years with great results but sides got bad after I turned 30 and have been off for 18 months now.

I believe I saw a post were Demond said he is taking 0.25 on Monday and Thursday with almost no sides. So I'm thinking about going for it for a couple of years hoping that something new will prove some efficacy in the mean time

----------


## MrBlonde

> I agree 100%, but the (potential) difference between me and some is that it makes me psychotically PISSED OFF.
> 
> I want Histogen's treatment expedited, enough of this waiting game bullshit.


 
I'm pretty sure everyone feels the same man, it stresses me out no end and gets me down.  Its like saying goodbye to yourself, your youth and how you used to be.  In a way its coming to terms with your aging and mortality.

It not good for peoples mental health in any way shape or form.

----------


## Thinning87

> Guys, isn't Desmond taking a small amount of Fin? Does anyone know what his dosage is and when he takes it.
> 
> Never thought I'd say this...::gasp:: but I'm contemplating taking Fin again, albeit a very, very small dose to help save my drastically thinning hair. God has pushed me to the limit and with modern medicine it's the only thing I got outside of a HT. Problem is, I can't hide from work and getting that done and not being obvious would be impossible. So HT right now is out of the question because I rather just thin then be pointed at and laughed at in my workplace and industry where looks are key.
> 
> I also started dating a beautiful woman, I mean 10 and she has made a comment on my hair being thin but says she doesn't care. Those are the ones you keep fellas'. She's a dime and I do not have great hair, it's thin, and disgusting when wet, yet this girl is all about me.
> 
> I just want one last shot at maintaining or seeing improvement. So scared to jump on that poison, but I'm left with zero options. Zero.


 I did the same for six months last year until my boss told me I had a focus problem and I had to fix it or be gone. I started out with one normal dose of Propecia every 48 hours and slowly worked it up to every 36 hours as I recall. I still had focus and brain fog side effects, there was no doubt about that, but my job is also very demanding so there's a possibility that someone with a more slow paced life would do fine.

Also, I believe Desmond is doing much less than what I did, so you might want to give that a try. I have to say I feel so much better without Fin in my system, I work out better and think much more clearly, which has benefits on all aspects of my life.

----------


## simba

> Our choices right now and for the foreseeable future are to either
> 
> a) go bald and feel like shit
> b) accept your faith and shave your head and save money
> c) use a product that will slow down but not stop your loss and give you sides
> d)  have a HT and hope it looks good on you
> e)  wear a wig


 
Mr Blonde im sorry man but c) is just false, with fin some lucky guys get regrowth, most halt their hairloss indefinitely (as numerous studies + anecdotes have confirmed), and some unlucky ones continue losing hair but at a slower rate. It sucks that youre part of the last group but you shouldnt make stuff up.

And not everyone gets sides on fin (i did, but not on RU and it seems to have stopped my hairloss). A good majority of guys will be able to take fin and stop further loss while having no sides.

----------


## greatjob!

> I'm pretty sure everyone feels the same man, it stresses me out no end and gets me down.  Its like saying goodbye to yourself, your youth and how you used to be.  In a way its coming to terms with your aging and mortality.
> 
> It not good for peoples mental health in any way shape or form.


 Yeah, and it really sucks when this happens when you're 14 years old...

----------


## Californication

> Guys, isn't Desmond taking a small amount of Fin? Does anyone know what his dosage is and when he takes it.
> 
> Never thought I'd say this...::gasp:: but I'm contemplating taking Fin again, albeit a very, very small dose to help save my drastically thinning hair. God has pushed me to the limit and with modern medicine it's the only thing I got outside of a HT. Problem is, I can't hide from work and getting that done and not being obvious would be impossible. So HT right now is out of the question because I rather just thin then be pointed at and laughed at in my workplace and industry where looks are key.
> 
> I also started dating a beautiful woman, I mean 10 and she has made a comment on my hair being thin but says she doesn't care. Those are the ones you keep fellas'. She's a dime and I do not have great hair, it's thin, and disgusting when wet, yet this girl is all about me.
> 
> I just want one last shot at maintaining or seeing improvement. So scared to jump on that poison, but I'm left with zero options. Zero.


 Hey man what's up, if I remember you had gyno/side fat gain issues like me.

While libido issues may improve with a lower fin dosage, those two effects will not (I was on 0.25 mg twice a week and then dropped even lower towards the last month). I was on fin again from October to Feb and the gyno issues starting propping up again late Decemberish as did the side fat gain, which was sooner then last time.

I wish you the best but I don't think you'll be free of these issues if your case was similar to mine.

----------


## garethbale

> Mr Blonde im sorry man but c) is just false, with fin some lucky guys get regrowth, *most halt their hairloss indefinitely (as numerous studies + anecdotes have confirmed), and some unlucky ones continue losing hair but at a slower rate*. It sucks that youre part of the last group but you shouldnt make stuff up.
> 
> And not everyone gets sides on fin (i did, but not on RU and it seems to have stopped my hairloss). A good majority of guys will be able to take fin and stop further loss while having no sides.


 
sorry but I have to challenge this...

if you stop hairloss you are very luck IMO...most will get slowing down to some segree.

----------


## Cob984

Yes man fat gain just gets worse, iv tried RU, CB start/stop and the fat gain will not go, its really quick to hit the body too,

Incredibly frustrating because my libido is totally fine, the world just hates me i guess
fat and hair or fit and bald

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

Do you have a good diet and stay in shape? I just can't believe fat gain is yet another side effect.

----------


## Cob984

Dont be ignorant man, if u block T and dht from receptors in areas other than your scalp it leaves all the space in the world for E to screw you,
result - fat gain

----------


## clandestine

> Dont be ignorant man, if u block T and dht from receptors in areas other than your scalp it leaves all the space in the world for E to screw you,
> result - fat gain


 Hey Cob, long time.

How are you, are you on anything currently? RU ended up messing with me in the end; tinnitus of all sides, similar to when I was using minox.

I'm on nothing currently; seems *every* time I try and treat my hair loss, with any number of things, I'm greeted with consequences and sides. I've almost given up.

----------


## Cob984

> Hey Cob, long time.
> 
> How are you, are you on anything currently? RU ended up messing with me in the end; tinnitus of all sides, similar to when I was using minox.
> 
> I'm on nothing currently; seems *every* time I try and treat my hair loss, with any number of things, I'm greeted with consequences and sides. I've almost given up.


 I think 3 mths on RU screwed me up big time and made me more susceptible to sides then ever before,
I can barely get by w/o weight issues using topical sp now lol,
CB in eth/pg stops my hairloss completely gives me very bad weight gain sides, worse than fin


I have given up now, i am close to getting a hair system which is very depressing thought because few mths ago i had elvis hair,
But i think i have to get over these weight issues, they are hampering my life as much as the hair at this point, ITs so frustrating because there is no brain fog or libidio loss on cb, **** my life, **** my body, **** the gods who decided they will ensure i lose my hair at any cost inspite of spending 10000s on treatments

I am shortly getting my first system from NWL , i have decided to let my hair go

----------


## simba

> I think 3 mths on RU screwed me up big time and made me more susceptible to sides then ever before,
> I can barely get by w/o weight issues using topical sp now lol,
> CB in eth/pg stops my hairloss completely gives me very bad weight gain sides, worse than fin
> 
> 
> I have given up now, i am close to getting a hair system which is very depressing thought because few mths ago i had elvis hair,
> But i think i have to get over these weight issues, they are hampering my life as much as the hair at this point, ITs so frustrating because there is no brain fog or libidio loss on cb, **** my life, **** my body, **** the gods who decided they will ensure i lose my hair at any cost inspite of spending 10000s on treatments
> 
> I am shortly getting my first system from NWL , i have decided to let my hair go


 
Did you get sexual sides on ru or just weight gain?

I got sides on fin at 0.25mg, been on ru for 2 months now with no sides and I thought I was safe

----------


## Cob984

Weight gain and a steep drop in libido (worse than fin), though could still get hard but the libido loss was quite noticeable,

----------


## simba

> Weight gain and a steep drop in libido (worse than fin), though could still get hard but the libido loss was quite noticeable,


 How soon did you get sides on RU? Were you fine for the first few months and then suddenly the drop happened?

You said in the other topic that you got no sides from CB so thats a relief. I just hope im lucky enough not to get sides on RU.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Yeah, and it really sucks when this happens when you're 14 years old...


 That really sucks man, is this happening to you?

Kids at that age can be cruel too.  It unusual to get it so young.

----------


## rdawg

> That really sucks man, is this happening to you?
> 
> Kids at that age can be cruel too.  It unusual to get it so young.


 Hit me just before I turned 18,

by 19 i was a NW2, then 20 i really started to thin out, got on fin, now i've been a thin NW3 for about 2 years, but it's still very slowly losing more and more.

Aggressive loss sucks!!! I need more than fin to help, really hoping we figure out CB soon.

----------


## MrBlonde

> sorry but I have to challenge this...
> 
> if you stop hairloss you are very luck IMO...most will get slowing down to some segree.


 Yes, a lot of people slow it down.  A fin Minox combo can have some gains but you hear of people who get less back after inital shed.  Its a big gamble with your hair and body




> Yes man fat gain just gets worse, iv tried RU, CB start/stop and the fat gain will not go, its really quick to hit the body too,
> 
> Incredibly frustrating because my libido is totally fine, the world just hates me i guess
> fat and hair or fit and bald


 Been on RU for months and have maintained my weight at 12st.  I gym, run and cycle a lot though so maybe thats it.

Weight gain, is it common with all DHT drugs.

----------


## Kudu

> Hit me just before I turned 18,
> 
> by 19 i was a NW2, then 20 i really started to thin out, got on fin, now i've been a thin NW3 for about 2 years, but it's still very slowly losing more and more.
> 
> Aggressive loss sucks!!! I need more than fin to help, really hoping we figure out CB soon.


 I was a NW2 when I was 15, I tried to tell my family that I was losing my hair but they just passed it off as nothing then it really progressed. I'm 17 now and I'm a NW3 going on 4. I hope we figure something out, I'm runnin' outa hope

----------


## hellouser

> I was a NW2 when I was 15, I tried to tell my family that I was losing my hair but they just passed it off as nothing then it really progressed. I'm 17 now and I'm a NW3 going on 4. I hope we figure something out, I'm runnin' outa hope


 Telling your family or anyone else about your hair loss will get you NOWHERE. Don't expect sympathy either, anyone privileged not to deal with hair loss will always brush it off as no big deal you know first hand as do I when I told my dad; he got angry and basically made me feel worthless for worrying about it.

Why do these people not give sympathy? It's best explained by a quote from the TV show The Big Bang Theory;




> There’s an economic concept known as a positional good in which an object is only valued by the possessor because it’s not possessed by others. The term was coined in 1976 by economist Fred Hirsch to replace the more colloquial, but less precise neener-neener.


 So essentially, society's humiliation of hair loss sufferers is a subconscious effort to further the divide of those privileged with hair and those without in order to give themselves the higher social standing.

They wouldn't know their own satisfaction without someone else's downfall. They *NEED* bald men/women to feel better about themselves.

That said, I never touch the subject of hair loss... nobody cares, and thats evidenced by the fact that there is no cure and any treatment that is in the works is at an embarrassingly slow pace.

----------


## huawei

> Telling your family or anyone else about your hair loss will get you NOWHERE. Don't expect sympathy either, anyone privileged not to deal with hair loss will always brush it off as no big deal you know first hand as do I when I told my dad; he got angry and basically made me feel worthless for worrying about it.
> 
> Why do these people not give sympathy? It's best explained by a quote from the TV show The Big Bang Theory;
> 
> 
> 
> So essentially, society's humiliation of hair loss sufferers is a subconscious effort to further the divide of those privileged with hair and those without in order to give themselves the higher social standing.
> 
> They wouldn't know their own satisfaction without someone else's downfall. They *NEED* bald men/women to feel better about themselves.
> ...


 I think that's quite a misanthropic view of things, from my point of view people project their own experiences and view point when they try and understand anothers. To them hair loss is no big deal because they have not experienced it and lack the empathy to see things from another perspective without projecting their own thoughts upon it. 

I have a friend whose upper body is covered in keloid scars he doesn't take his shirt off in front of others and at times I catch my self forgetting what the big deal is about then I remember to take things from his point of view alone and its becomes completely understandable.

----------


## hellouser

> I think that's quite a misanthropic view of things, from my point of view people project their own experiences and view point when they try and understand anothers. To them hair loss is no big deal because they have not experienced it and lack the empathy to see things from another perspective without projecting their own thoughts upon it. 
> 
> *I have a friend whose upper body is covered in keloid scars he doesn't take his shirt off in front of others and at times I catch my self forgetting what the big deal is about then I remember to take things from his point of view alone and its becomes completely understandable.*


 This is because you've already been exposed to a condition that is also aesthetically crippling to your image by social standards. You can relate to him on some level. Anyone else and they wouldn't give a damn. But I guarantee this, your baldness will be accepted for ridicule while your friends keloid scars will get sympathy.

Baldness is the ONLY condition I can think of that society thinks is acceptable to ridicule and ONLY if its a guy thats experiencing hair loss. Women get a pass.

----------


## CAlex

40% of men experience noticeable hairloss by age 35. how many guys are too short, not attractive enough, and the list goes on and on. girls dont get ridiculed because their overweight?

Its very obvious you're all about a big pity party and that's fine. But I dont think any of us accepted the invite man. Stop acting like a 5 year old. yeah this sucks but whining and making pathetic comments like poor us no one cares enough to cure us is just ridiculous.

You act like Lauster has the cure in his jean jacket pocket but wont give it to us because hes a meanie. Im 100% cool if people need to come on here occasionally and vent just to get it off their chest or for their own sanity but its all you ever do now.

and are you f ing kidding me with that comment about women not having a hard time with HL? Maybe they wont get made fun of in a TV show or something (yippie) but Im guessing they have it a lot worse then a guy.

@ KUDU. Hang in there man. You might be suffering right now but with any luck a real treatment could be available withing 10 years. Sounds like forever but getting back your hair by 27-30 is a prospect many guys on here would have killed for. Hell, even if it doesn't happen until your 40. Hair completely changes the way you look and feel.

as hard as it is just try and accept your situation, knowing that you might be able to be "cured" at a relatively young age.

----------


## hellouser

> 40% of men experience noticeable hairloss by age 35. how many guys are too short, not attractive enough, and the list goes on and on. girls dont get ridiculed because their overweight?


 Oh please, dont even compare weight that can be easily taken care of (diet + burning off calories) to something with zero options. The ridicule for someone with a disgusting diet and poor health habits (lack of exercise of any kind) is completely warranted.




> Its very obvious you're all about a big pity party and that's fine. But I dont think any of us accepted the invite man. Stop acting like a 5 year old. yeah this sucks but whining and making pathetic comments like poor us no one cares enough to cure us is just ridiculous.
> 
> You act like Lauster has the cure in his jean jacket pocket but wont give it to us because hes a meanie. Im 100% cool if people need to come on here occasionally and vent just to get it off their chest or for their own sanity but its all you ever do now.


 Oh yeah, me calling out society for being sh*theads is really a plea for pity... from other balding guys. Dafuq?




> and are you f ing kidding me with that comment about women not having a hard time with HL? Maybe they wont get made fun of in a TV show or something (yippie) but Im guessing they have it a lot worse then a guy.


 Yeah, they do get a pass. You'd have to be incredibly in denial to say that women get humiliated as much as men do over baldness. Using a TV show crap is just as ridiculous of an argument as suggesting that throwing in the towel and shaving it off is fine because celebrities do it and they look good... yeah, as if were celebrities..... or as if all forms of humiliation are on TV. Either youre a hermit and never dealt with the real world or you really are that naive to think women have it as bad when it comes to 'hair loss shaming'. Yeah, they could feel worse (i didnt say that, so dont cram words into my mouth that I didnt say) but public perception and ridicule is pretty damn obvious of which sex gets it worse. Just go into ***'s forum and see how some of the guys there get treated by FAMILY members... being called a sphynx? You think women get that kind of disgusting treatment to their face? No, its not acceptable... but men are told to toughen up, grow a pair and let society hurl all kinds of insults at you. God damn if you dont see this there's no hope for you being realistic about the disparity.

----------


## Dan26

CAlex I'm sure your heart is in a good place, but lets deal with reality here....

----------


## Cob984

> Yes, a lot of people slow it down.  A fin Minox combo can have some gains but you hear of people who get less back after inital shed.  Its a big gamble with your hair and body
> 
> 
> 
> Been on RU for months and have maintained my weight at 12st.  I gym, run and cycle a lot though so maybe thats it.
> 
> Weight gain, is it common with all DHT drugs.


 Not for everyone, im very susceptible to it, its not just weight gain , my body shape gets ****ed up with prolonged use all else being the same,

I start to notice a drop off in my level of bloating a few days after dropping RU/CB, its actually way worse on these topicals for me than it is on oral fin, its weird,
I get some weight gain on fin but its very minor compared to the mess on ru and cb

----------


## huawei

> This is because you've already been exposed to a condition that is also aesthetically crippling to your image by social standards. You can relate to him on some level. Anyone else and they wouldn't give a damn. But I guarantee this, your baldness will be accepted for ridicule while your friends keloid scars will get sympathy.
> 
> Baldness is the ONLY condition I can think of that society thinks is acceptable to ridicule and ONLY if its a guy thats experiencing hair loss. Women get a pass.


 To be honest in my circle of friends I have yet to hear one snide comment, occasionally its joked about but its all in jest and I'm yet to hear one comment in public. When my hair loss has been discussed with people, the few times it has, they have all been very sympathetic. I'm not bald either but am quite thin on top and its noticeable I'm on my way to being an NW3 going on 22 this year.

Anyway, your post agrees with my point, still though I just don't see how society subconsciously ridicules those losing hair. If you're going to use that logic why stop at baldness? Wouldn't society look down upon everyone suffering some kind of malice or sickness in an effort to feel better and further divide themselves? I just don't see it and the only population I do see it occurring in are the ones who are sick in the head. I mean what kind of immature piece of shit takes a boost of self esteem from looking down upon and ridiculing others?

----------


## hellouser

> To be honest in my circle of friends I have yet to hear one snide comment, occasionally its joked about but its all in jest and I'm yet to hear one comment in public. When my hair loss has been discussed with people, the few times it has, they have all been very sympathetic. I'm not bald either but am quite thin on top and its noticeable I'm on my way to being an NW3 going on 22 this year.
> 
> Anyway, your post agrees with my point, still though I just don't see how society subconsciously ridicules those losing hair. If you're going to use that logic why stop at baldness? Wouldn't society look down upon everyone suffering some kind of malice or sickness in an effort to feel better and further divide themselves? I just don't see it and the only population I do see it occurring in are the ones who are sick in the head. I mean what kind of immature piece of shit takes a boost of self esteem from looking down upon and ridiculing others?


 Perhaps its because your relatively new to baldness? I've been at it for a number of years. I remember I had some of my photos on another website a long time ago and my hairline was receded then and a LOT of the members would humiliate me over it. My coworker often makes references to baldness as a disgusting condition (shes 34).

I see it often, but I'm also extremely attentive. But I've 8 years on you also.

----------


## Vox

> I'm not bald either but am quite thin on top and its noticeable I'm on my way to being an NW3 going on 22 this year.
> 
> Anyway, your post agrees with my point, still though I just don't see how society subconsciously ridicules those losing hair.


 First, you are very young and not bald yet. And second, you did not say which country you are living in. Yes, it does matter.

----------


## UK_

> CAlex I'm sure your heart is in a good place, but lets deal with reality here....


 1+

I tend to side with Hellousers perspective here.

----------

