# Men's Hair Loss > Men's Hair Loss: Start Your Own Topic >  Bald spot on fin.. Do I quit?

## Ziggyz123

Guys, I'm just so pissed. I check my hair daily and I'm straight balding hard now after 1yr and 9months on fin. What the hell do I do? It's like my body fought it off and made my loss worse by increasing my androgens.

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## jamesst11

I see it through your left, do you have the same on the other side?  The crown looks nearly perfect, which is good.  I am not quite sure what is going on here, interesting... Is your hair wet in the second photo?  Have you lost density throughout?  Is your scalp still tingling and itching all the time?

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## Artista

*Ziggy' !  Hi buddy, First of all, how old are you ?*
I would advise that you *NOT  stop using your Finasteride.* 
*Your hair  looks as if it is only MATURING.*
_It might not be hairloss my friend._
*Its possible that Finasteride has kept your hair relatively OK because your hair DOES look OK bro!!*
*I would not talk to you in an undiscerning way.*
I care about others, and *I wish my scalp looked like YOURS*!

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## Ziggyz123

Hey guys, yes hair is wet in second photo. That's where I had the scalp pain. My right side is receded too, but not like the left. The left was always great and I only went on fin to stop my right side from receding. It seems as though it had no effect on me. Keep in mind I was using Minox and fin when this shed and scalp pain took me out. I really have no options left lol. A transplant is the only thing I could really do to maintain and restore my temples/hairline. 

But yeah I had itching, tingling, burning, etc. in this area and just itching on the right side since before and while on fin.

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## Ziggyz123

> *Ziggy' !  Hi buddy, First of all, how old are you ?*
> I would advise that you *NOT  stop using your Finasteride.* 
> *Your hair  looks as if it is only MATURING.*
> _It might not be hairloss my friend._
> *Its possible that Finasteride has kept your hair relatively OK because your hair DOES look OK bro!!*
> *I would not talk to you in an undiscerning way.*
> I care about others, and *I wish my scalp looked like YOURS*!


 Oh and I'm 24!

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## Buster

So, do you mean that your hair has thinned out? That's what happened to me. The top of my hair had significantly thinned out to the point where you can see my scalp in direct lighting. For me it was in the beginning though, about 3 months in, I don't think it's really gotten worse since (2 years), but it's forced me to start using concealers.

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## Ziggyz123

> So, do you mean that your hair has thinned out? That's what happened to me. The top of my hair had significantly thinned out to the point where you can see my scalp in direct lighting. For me it was in the beginning though, about 3 months in, I don't think it's really gotten worse since (2 years), but it's forced me to start using concealers.


 Yeah dude, my hair definitely thinned out.. I have like a new part as well, it's so odd. The thing is I had needle pricking pain there, burning, itch... I could probably get by with a transplant because I usually just comb my hair to the side, but it's really stressful when you use both proven methods and get worse. And getting worse with pain and what not (smh)

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## jamesst11

So, You're still on fin, correct?  When did you stop the minoxidil?  Are you certain it wasn't the minox that was causing the problems?

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## Ziggyz123

> So, You're still on fin, correct?  When did you stop the minoxidil?  Are you certain it wasn't the minox that was causing the problems?


 Yeah still on finasteride. I've been off of minoxidil since early December. Honestly I don't know if Minox caused the issues.. That was my first guess in thinking it gave me seborrheic dermatitis, but that inflammation lasted 4 months after quitting and If I push on my hairline in spots it feels bruised. I sort of think my body overcame finasteride because I did have a high sex drive due in that period. No way to know for sure though  :Frown:  

I'm going to my doc tomorrow to request all kinds of stuff.

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## Buster

I don't remember any other problems (inflammation, scalp tenderness etc), other than my hair appearing much thinner. I part my hair through the middle, so yeah, like you, I've noticed that the part is wider now. I saw my doctor about it, then he sent me to a Derm, and they both basically looked at my hair and said, "That's odd", and recommended trying Minox (which I haven't tried yet). That's was back in 2012.

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## Artista

*Hi Ziggy'! * Thank you for answering my question.
 So you are *only 24 years old*...thats cool!
Ziggy' I feel that when you look at your hair, your not looking at it with objectivity and I can understand that.
* After all you are still so very young.*
As I said before, your hair may very well  only be _MATURING_ now.
*Not necessarily going to bald!* The best thing that you can do for yourself is to not focus so much on it.
Your young emotions can and do make your hair look worse *ONLY to YOU* *than it really is bro!*
*Im sure that others around you, friends ,acquaintances and family DO NOT see a problem with your hair like you do.*
Like I said before,* stress WILL cause a difference in ones hair*, more than likely.  
Be positive, you have good looking hair. 
Of course it probably doesn't look like it did when you were 16 years old--of course. 
*Be realistic my friend. Do not become stressed out!!*

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## jamesst11

I'd just like to say, Artista I appreciate what a positive influence you are on this forum.  Your posts always make me feel better.  :Smile:

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## Dench57

You've *got* to LOVE the enthusiasm with _all that_ bold*/underline/italics.*

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## Artista

*Hi Jamesst11 !*
I was glad to have read your response from yesterday! _Thank you so much!_
*I am sincerely trying to help others, especially with commonsense*. 
Ive not been as active as I was before because _LIFE gets in the way_.
I will be creating a new thread here at some point in time.
*Hey Dench57*, your response 
"You've got to LOVE the enthusiasm with all that bold/underline/italics." was _humorous indeed!_ 
I hope your doing OK too Dench' !!
How about you James' ? Are you OK? 
Back to *Ziggy*', *what is your update Ziggy'??*

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## Ziggyz123

hey! Yeah, I'd have to agree that Artista has some extreme optimism and a very caring heart on this forum. With that being said, thank you for that upbeat response  :Smile:  :Smile:  unfortunately I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I definitely lost a lot of hair, but it could have been due to minoxidil and also quitting. Can't really explain the scalp pain though. Odd thing is that I was using bot treatments at the time of my massive shed and ongoing scalp sensations. I'm getting blood work for some hormones Saturday, but my primary doesn't know how to check dht ??? Lol idk anymore. I'm very close to not opting for fue and doing fut with Rahal because I can afford it. It's all getting very tiring, but you guys know what I mean. 

If blood comes back decently normal, I think I'm going to start dutasteride as a last attempt before transplantation. Of course, I will let you caring peeps know!

Thanks again guys  :Wink:

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## Artista

*Great to hear back from you again Ziggy'!*
Although you have spoken of your issues,* it seems that you are going into a more positive mode!*
*Staying positive with commonsense can only help you my friend!*
Remember what I had said about _STRESS_...I wish you luck and Im glad that you are here!! 
*All WILL be WELL -in time so be patient .*

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## Dench57

> *Hi Jamesst11 !*
> I was glad to have read your response from yesterday! _Thank you so much!_
> *I am sincerely trying to help others, especially with commonsense*. 
> Ive not been as active as I was before because _LIFE gets in the way_.
> I will be creating a new thread here at some point in time.
> *Hey Dench57*, your response 
> "You've got to LOVE the enthusiasm with all that bold/underline/italics." was _humorous indeed!_ 
> I hope your doing OK too Dench' !!
> How about you James' ? Are you OK? 
> Back to *Ziggy*', *what is your update Ziggy'??*


 Haha  :Smile:  you really are a breath of fresh air on these incredibly depressing forums.

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## jamesst11

Ziggy, I have to ask - What made you come to the conclusion that you even had MPB in the first place?  Looking at your photos, aside from the area that thinned out a bit, I personally see no signs of MPB, but I could be wrong.  Did you get a miniaturization test or biopsy done?

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## Dench57

Yeah your hair still looks really good and in my opinion you should not even be thinking about a hair transplant. You just need to get that inflammation under control, same as me.

I'll post some pics of my situation at some point as it's similar to yours, in that I barely had MPB and taking Fin just opened up a whole can of worms with the inflammation/itch/scalp pain.

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## Ziggyz123

> Ziggy, I have to ask - What made you come to the conclusion that you even had MPB in the first place?  Looking at your photos, aside from the area that thinned out a bit, I personally see no signs of MPB, but I could be wrong.  Did you get a miniaturization test or biopsy done?


 Well, long story short, when I was like 20 I realized my hairline was a v and it freaked me out even though I never looked at it lol. It was probably like that all along, but I went to true and Dorin in the city and they told me just to use minoxidil. I used that and I was getting itching on my right hairline with some recession where the itch was. Then went to my derm and she put my on fin. Used it for a year and kept on minox and then got crazy shedding, short tight pains in my scalp, etc.. Now I'm losing my hair really badly. I mean my hair was GREAT this time last year. Sucks..

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## jamesst11

Dr. Rahal is a very respectable surgeon.  I did not have an IAHRS surgeon and made a huge mistake.  It just depends on your extent of hair loss and how you've sustained the hair that you have.  If you have lost a lot of hair RECENTLY, due to fin, minox, TE or whatever and have become diffuse, then in my personal opinion, you are not a good candidate for an HT at all.  That is the only reason why I was so insistent against Ziggy's.  I would need to see pics of your hair, how long you've sustained the NW that you're at, know your detailed regiment, age, so and and so forth to give my personal opinion.  The only advice I can give, advice that I wish I had gotten, and advice that would have saved me from a horrible depression is THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE.  If you have a relatively thick head of hair and are prone to MPB and get one "touch up" HT to thicken one area, you will have to get another and another in the future when the other areas start to thin.  Are you considering FUT?  If so, be ready for the emotional trauma of having a scar on the back of your head for the rest of your days.  FUE also leaves scarring.  Are you ready to dedicate yourself to a life of hair transplants?  If you're not on fin and minox and do have TE from the procedure (which is WAY more common than you think), and if you have MPB on top of that, please don't expect a lot of that lost hair to regrow.  

I AM NOT TRYING TO SCARE YOU, I AM TRYING TO INFORM YOU.   While Rahal is a very reputable doctor, no doctor knows precisely the outcome of these procedures.  The BEST candidate is one with ISOLATED loss and a sustained NW pattern and is on fin and minox and is realistic with their expectations.  NOT DIFFUSE THINNERS. LOOK at as many HT pics as you can. CONSULT AS MANY HT DOCS AND DERMS AS YOU CAN.  You can always get an HT in the future.  IF you let your EMOTIONS AND VULNERABILITY get the best of you, you CANNOT undo what has been done.  good luck.  post some pics!  :Smile:

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## Illusion

Ziggy your density looks fine (as in not affected by mpb), I'd be more worried by all those miniaturising hairs in your hair line. Also, get hair counts done of various places of your scalp by a derm through a microscope camera. I had those done and I got a number of hairs per square cm. With those numbers I was able to determine wether I actually fell into the normal region density wise. It doesn't mean you haven't lost hair in those places but it might ease your mind to see you're still well within normal hair counts.

Also, hop on the dutatasteride train if you think finasteride is ineffective for you. Or RU if you like.

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## Ziggyz123

> Ziggy your density looks fine (as in not affected by mpb), I'd be more worried by all those miniaturising hairs in your hair line. Also, get hair counts done of various places of your scalp by a derm through a microscope camera. I had those done and I got a number of hairs per square cm. With those numbers I was able to determine wether I actually fell into the normal region density wise. It doesn't mean you haven't lost hair in those places but it might ease your mind to see you're still well within normal hair counts.
> 
> Also, hop on the dutatasteride train if you think finasteride is ineffective for you. Or RU if you like.


 What's up illusion. Yeah my density in my scalp is decent, but my hairline where the soreness is got totally destroyed and miniaturized on fin.. I need to visit a trichologist in order to get a miniaturization mapping done because the derms I have seen don't do it. Also, are you on ditasteride? I was thinking about using it, but this inflammation and loss happened on fin so I'm worried about the kind of reaction I could potentially have on dut.

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## Illusion

> What's up illusion. Yeah my density in my scalp is decent, but my hairline where the soreness is got totally destroyed and miniaturized on fin.. I need to visit a trichologist in order to get a miniaturization mapping done because the derms I have seen don't do it. Also, are you on ditasteride? I was thinking about using it, but this inflammation and loss happened on fin so I'm worried about the kind of reaction I could potentially have on dut.


 It's always a bit tricky to give advice when people think their hair line got worse on fin. I'm not really educated on this subject so it's all bro science coming out of my mouth  :Stick Out Tongue:  . Anyway, some people think it's the extra T that you get while on fin (and dut as well) that makes your hair line a lot worse. Others say that when your hair line gets worse in fin, it's just mpb progressing and fin not being strong enough. So your hair line going backwards wouldn't be the fault of fin, your mpb would be too "aggressive" for fin.

I think it's prob the last case, but some people swear by the extra T that ruined their hair. It might be good to contact a reputable HT doctor (IAHRS) and ask him this question. You should realise though that dutasteride increases scalp T with a whopping 102% (!!) if I recall correctly. However, it does decrease scalp DHT with 58% compared to somewhere around 30% with fin. Again, look these numbers up to be sure but I am certain they are approx these numbers.

I am on dutasteride indeed, 0.5mg ED. However, my hair loss is kinda like yours only my hair line is worse than yours. I have good density but a pretty high hair line (NW2.5) for my age. Therefore, to be absolutely sure that I won't recede any further, I also use a low dose of RU exclusively on my hair line (35mg). I don't know if this will be enough to fully halt my hair loss but I sure hope so. I also use minox once a day btw. I wish I could tell you whether this regime works or not for me, but I'm only 2 weeks in so I can't  :Frown: 

Before this I have used a relatively low dose of RU (varying from 40 to 70mg) ED over my whole scalp (I don't do that anymore because I hope dut will take care for my overal density) for 8 months, used 1mg and later 1.25mg fin ED for 6 months and used minox once a day for 6 months, but I had the feeling I was still receding so I changed regime. Dunno if it was truly necessary but seeing my hair line like it's now makes me pretty sad, so I want to do everything I can to at least not make this worse. I'd up my current RU dose if I could but money is kinda tight atm and I'm also not sure whether it's necessary (maybe his will be enough already?)

Sorry for my messy post, just jotted some things down I thought might be relevant for your situation. Anyway let me tell you this, you still have really good hair and switching to dut might save your hair for a very long time. It's worth at least considering it. You could talk it through at a hair clinic or with a derm, but you have to be sure that person or clinic is familiar with dut for hair loss. After all, it's not fda approved for hair loss and that's a no-no for many derms out there I'd figure.

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## jamesst11

I don't understand this though... doesn't testosterone in itself have nothing to do with hair loss?  Isn't it only the amount of scalp DHT that causes hair loss? A lot of people on fin have reported increase levels of total testosterone, which in the sense of physiological feedback makes sense.  On fin, 5a reductase is reduced, therefor DHT is reduced and your body may respond by producing more of the hormone ultimately responsible for DHT production, which is testosterone... BUT, as long as your sufficiently blocking 5AR, you are preventing the metabolism of testosterone to DHT.

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## Ziggyz123

Well let me quickly tell you guys this.. When I experienced the burning sensations and this rapid hairloss, I did have a jolt of horny-ness and I literally HAD to masturbate because I felt weird. I'm sure that either I had an increase of T or somehow DHT. I'll never know.

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## Ziggyz123

Also, the amount of shedding I do is really insane.. I shower and lose like 40 hairs, I lose another 20 or so blow drying on cool, and then I'll comb it maybe three passes and lose another 10-15. That's just in the morning.. Anytime I put my hands through my hair I'll have 2 hairs on my hand. It's like my hair will not stay planted in my head and it's extremely weak. I also shed hair of different lengths so I'm assuming that my hair is cycling very fast to the point where it is miniaturized.. This is what is happening to my hairline/behind. I have thinning pretty bad when it's 3/4 dry that is very apparent, but after its fully dry and not greasy it is hard to tell. I guess dutasteride at this point wouldn't matter because I've lost like 50% of my hair in the past 9 months.. I haven't gotten it cut in so long and I literally dread getting on because of this terrible thinning.. 

Does anyone know what is going on with the drug setipiprant? That's the only thing I really have any faith in, but I can't seem to find any new releases about it anywhere..

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## mic28

Hey guys so I finally made the decision to go on oral minoxidil starting off on just the 1mg daily then il up it. Decision was finalised as I am only back from holiday and lost a ton of hair in a few days. Hair became greasy, horniness levels rose etc showing increase in T. My scalp is currently visible and my crown is bald. This is now my last resort. Still on small amounts of fin but think I will finish up

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## Ziggyz123

What up mic. 

I'm taking micro doses as well now. Trying to mess with it because I think it's causing my scalp pain.. Let me know how you do with oral minoxidil man. Document sides if any and what not and best of luck to you!!!!! If you don't experience sides, work your way to 5mg because I read that dosage is good for regrowth.

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## mic28

Will do Ziggy, il keep small dosing fin as well for now. I reckon shedding occurred over the holiday also due to poor diet.

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## mic28

Will do Ziggy, il keep small dosing fin as well for now. I reckon shedding occurred over the holiday also due to poor diet.

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## Ziggyz123

Quick update.. My hair is decently long and I'm shedding short hairs.. About an inch. Guess they are cycling rapidly and for some reason not staying planted.. Not sure if I have telogen effluvium from finasteride or not, but dutasteride is looking like an option. 

When my hair is wet, if I just run down my scalp lightly without going through it, I'll have hair on my hands.. When blow drying they just fly right out of my scalp.. It's maddening! It seems as though I'm cornered since on fin, my hairline receded and my hair seems to now be minaturizing. It could be however, that fin is a trigger to telogen effluvium, but I just don't know.i guess if I tried dutasteride and got more scalp pain and was still shedding then I'm just doomed. This is a damn shame.

Edit: just combed my hair and like twenty or so came out.  :Confused:  :Mad:  :Frown:

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## mic28

Hey Ziggy, what's weird is that the hairs I shed have usually been 1 inch long exactly. Rarely do I shed anything longer and sometimes shorter but weird that these 1 inch hairs are the ones that fall

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## jamesst11

I felt the same damn way! For me, however, I noticed the longer hairs fall out easier... probably due to the weight of the hair and force applied while shampooing and conditioning.  I notice a bunch of shorter hairs falling out afterwards, when I am combing and styling it.  Are you certain you're not losing the longer ones through out the day, by the wind and running your fingers through it and other factors... and that those shorter hairs that are better shielded from these factors come out when you are thoroughly brushing? 
     Here's one experiment I did.  I washed my hair thoroughly, combed and styled it at night... I then covered it in hairspray, so it was stiff and not a single hair could move.  Exactly one day later, I washed and washed it over the sink, with a hair catcher placed in the drain... I then removed the hair catcher, allowed it to dry and separated all the hairs in the sink (I know this sounds crazy OCD, but I was trying to figure sh*t out!  :Wink: ) What I noticed was about 60 hairs or so, of all different sizes.

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## Ziggyz123

Update,

I started trying to cut in half the quartered pieces of 5mg proscar this past week. I haven't really had inflammation at the hairline, but taking a look over my scalp, it is EXTREMELY DIFFUSE. Unbelievably diffuse actually.. I am 100% a believer that fin can cause the body to over power slow progression hair loss and make it go into over drive. At this point, I don't see any options. Even a transplant won't help so much because I'm no diffuse and it isn't just my hairline.. 

Also, my hair texture changed and doesn't get as greasy, however it now feels lifeless and thin.. Hope a cure comes soon because current pharmaceuticals are not cutting it..

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## Artista

*HI Ziggy !!* Hope you are well!

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## jamesst11

I am a 100% believer in that, with time, your hair will DEFINITELY grow back.  You need to be patient, f*ck all the medications (maybe just use minoxidil) and let it be.  You see, you lost hair RAPIDLY, which means that the anagen and telogen phases got out of wack, and your hair growth COULD NOT keep up with your hair loss.  This happens in the case of telogen effluvium and I am pretty certain, based on your pictures and descriptions, that this what you had.  Even WOMEN become diffuse after TE, for example after giving birth this is a very common occurance.  This is primarily due to the TRAUMA and drastic HORMONAL imbalance that occurs through such a process... In some cases, fin can drastically alter your hormones, so this is possible.... WHAT IS THE CURE?  time... TE is self correcting.  TRUST ME - The MORE you STRESS, the worst it gets.  The MORE MEDICATIONS you try right now, the worst it gets.  The MORE YOU F*CK WITH YOU HAIR... THE WORST IT GETS.  This is excruciating for you, I know.  Devastating, especially at such a young age.  I will tell you first hand though, the ONLY THING that corrected my TE was time, patience and putting it out of my mind.  If fin f*cks with me, like it did you, then my hair is done for.  This is my last attempt.  For YOU, there is a strong chance that those hairs WERE NOT on their last legs so to speak (in their last cycle before becoming miniaturized)... hang in there brother.

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## Ziggyz123

Hey James, 

I really believed I had TE, but it's been going on since October.. TE is usually only 6 months and this will not let up man. My brother who has a receding hairline has good density besides the recession.. I always looked at him and told my self I will never get like that and went on fin. I just don't understand this. 

How long did your TE last James? It's crazy because when I pull my hair back and let it fall, it will sort of part into lines down my scalp it does match TE, but I'm shedding hair of all different lengths so I'm guessing that I'm miniaturizing.. My hair was amazing I'm not even kidding.. Now it's worse than my 61yr old fathers in the matter of 9 months. I wish prp actually thickened hair.. I'd try that, but it's just a waste. I'm scared shitless to get my hair cut lol it's sad..

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## jamesst11

Oh man, you sound exactly like me.  I really need to stop being lazy and post some before and after pics.  A couple things to note:

1) TE lasting 3-6 months - BULLSH*T... That is only in regards to a situation where there was ONE trigger at ONE point that caused enough physiological stress to trigger ONE episode.  What if the inciting factor is NOT removed?  i.e. you being on fin perhaps?  Once again, I am not a doctor, but it makes perfect sense that IF finasteride is causing a drastic imbalance in your body it is the trigger for the TE.  If it is the trigger and you don't remove it, then TE will come and go.  A lot of people say this is impossible, or very unlikely... I call complete BULLSH*T on that... A VARIETY of medications can cause TE, so why can't finasteride?  It can.  If you are one of the few unlucky ones and your hormones fluctuate rapidly, this can put stress on multiple systems AND that my friend is a physiological insult. 

2) I don't even know when my TE started and ended, as I am certain I had 3 bouts of it.  1) Hair transplant - HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE F*CKING TE.  I would comb my hair over the sink every day and then count 200 hairs! that lasted for 3 months... then I tore my ACL and meniscus... MORE HUGE HAIRLOSS! THEN...I had ACL surgery... three months later, like clock work, BAM!! My hair lost 50% density in like 1.5 years...

3) Everything you are saying sounds characteristic of TE to me... Unfortunately for me, I thinned really, really bad in the MPB areas almost immediately and am still struggling to see regrowth...I pray to God fin will help.  It was weird showing up to dinner 6 months post op HT and having the same hair as my brother who's three years older... yet it makes perfect sense.  It aged my hair by 3-5 years.  Hairs that WOULD have fallen out in 3 or so years to come back miniaturized were sent into telogen early... I would have been much less depressed if this just happened naturally, but knowing that I caused it by getting an HT and having these weird HT hairs, spaced too far apart in my left hairline and a scar to boot, really f*cked me up.

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## jamesst11

Shedding hairs of different sizes makes perfect sense if you have TE... Imagine your normal hair.  Different hairs are in different stages, that's what's hard to recognize.  You have some that are long, some that are short, some in anagen (85-90%) some in telogen (10-15%)... Now you have an incident which causes TE... Your body will send from 20+% into the telogen phase, in order to divert blood flow and essential nutrients from the follicle to the area of damage.  Your body DOES NOT pick and choose which follicles are "shut down".  They may be growing fibers that are small or long or thin or thick... either way the one's that are shut down release the hair 3-4 months after the inciting event.

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## mic28

I have diffuse all over due to finasteride James. Probably for about the same length of time as Ziggy. Nearly 9 months. If this turns out to be TE il be very happy as I assumed what I lost was gone. It did seem a bit weird how the hairs I lost due to diffuse just disappeared rather than miniaturising over time however. Maybe that could be TE

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## Artista

I looked up *TE* on the* 'WebMD'* site. Here is a link to this 

http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-a...oss/effluviums

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## Ziggyz123

Hey artista, thanks for the link! I've read that before and my description fit to a T because I had MASSIVE shedding at random one day in November. However, I had short bursts of scalp pain and burning before it started so I really don't know if I qualify for TE. 

I mean, I could probably get away with getting a dense hairline where my existing hairline is and just brushing it over.. I just don't have any regrowth and I can see through my hair now..

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## WanderingOracle

I wouldn't "give up". Most guys have plenty of options beyond "Go bald". I'd say keep an eye on it, and be willing to adjust down to other things.

There are things like hair tattoos which, when used with existing hair, help mask the "see-through" effect. You still have hair, and it makes it look much thicker. Just be careful about getting it too near to your hairline, as a little recession could make it look very odd.

There are also hair clips and hair extensions. You can get these pretty short and they add a lot of volume to your hair(though again, can't assist much with hair lines).

A lot of people on these forums are suffering from massive psychological problems that run a lot deeper than just the hair loss itself. I'd say %90+ of balding men have options that keep their hair looking pretty good. But they're literally obsessed with having "perfect hair" and get fatalistic with anything that results in "Decent to above average hair for my age".

The question you should seek to answer is "How can I look as good as possible with what I have?" and proceed from there. You still have plenty of hair and a lot of options. If you ever hit a NW4, then you start finding yourself in a lot of trouble. But only a small percentage of men who start battling hair loss as soon as you have, ever reach an NW4. There are a lot of fixes to thinning hair. Though there is very little to be done with flat out bald patches.

There is a lot you can do to still look good. But there may be nothing to do in order to achieve "perfect hair". An NW1 is probably out of reach. Most guys can still make themselves look pretty good with up to a NW 3.5 or so. If they take outside steps to help mask it.

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## Ziggyz123

Hey oracle, thanks for the reply. A hair tattoo is really not smart in my eyes.. Especially when your 70 with a tattoo of dots on ones head lol. Hair piece is also not for most guys.. I was fine board wrong nw3, but this year and whatever made my hair die made my nw2 turn into a diffuse nw3.. I can't even make it look good like I used to because of how fast and how hard I lost hair. It doesn't even match how my brother is and family.. TE could be a possibility, but I have too many factors in my equation.. I used minox for 2.5 on my hairline at night before this massive shed and scalp pain so I dropped that first... Then I started trying to pin point why the shed happened and thought it was due to me doing p90x and restricting certain foods from my diet.. The scalp pain lasted so long though and only let up as I recently started low dosing fin. It could be a coincidence though as I have lost SO much hair already that maybe TE was letting up? It's impossible to know.. 

I was thinking of trying oral minox so that I didn't have to use topicals just in case. I just don't want to be on that and then if some cute comes about, I'd have to quit and my hair would go through TE from taking that away.. Just sucks when you're out of viable options. If I could just transplant to thicken up my hairline and what I have I'd be able to be happy, but I can't seem to stabilize this loss.. 

Also, I've been thinking that I may have something causing my hairloss because I was getting sensitive to certain foods and they were causing my scalp to itch when eating them.. Maybe celiac? Or gluten disorder? I read they can cause autoimmune related hairloss and since my scalp felt so bad and burned, it could have to do with something along those lines..

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## WanderingOracle

> A hair tattoo is really not smart in my eyes.. Especially when your 70 with a tattoo of dots on ones head lol.


 I mean which way do you think a 70 year old man will look better? One with a few random tufts of grey, and white hair popping out of a bald, age spotted head. Or, a nice simple black outline, that looks almost exactly like it did at age 40?

Secondly, you want your hair to look good primarily to impress women(or perhaps men). This is all about your sexual market value. Ok, at 70, provided you're not a billionaire, you're out of the sexual market anyway. Who cares if you look %5 shittier at 70? It makes you look much better now, which is the only thing that matters.




> Hair piece is also not for most guys


 Not a "hair piece". Hair extensions and hair clips. Completely different matter. A hair piece is a huge pain in the ass and only makes sense for a NW5+. Down at 3.5 and below, you can use both hair extensions and hair clips. They look very good, and natural. A lot of women get them, and they can work just as well for you. You'll just want shorter ones. Any salon can hook you up.




> whatever made my hair die made my nw2 turn into a diffuse nw3.. I can't even make it look good like I used to because of how fast and how hard I lost hair.


 You aren't going to be able to make it look good if you do what most of the guys around here do. I'm in finance, but my whole family is very involved in the style and cosmetics industry. Most guys on balding forums look like shit, have never been attractive and have literally have no idea how to even look good. If you do what they do... expect similar results.

Pining for %100 of your hair won't make one extra strand stay. You need to be thinking about what will work for you. Don't do what most balding men do and just try to hold onto hair. Work with what you've got(even if you keep losing it).




> Then I started trying to pin point why the shed happened and thought it was due to me doing p90x and restricting certain foods from my diet.. [...]Also, I've been thinking that I may have something causing my hairloss because I was getting sensitive to certain foods and they were causing my scalp to itch when eating them.. Maybe celiac? Or gluten disorder? I read they can cause autoimmune related hairloss and since my scalp felt so bad and burned, it could have to do with something along those lines..


 Stress and diet have almost nothing to do with hair loss. Unfortunately, it's a misconception that is very common among balding men. If you are truly stress losing hair, it will fall out everywhere, not along typical MPB lines. You'll lose just as much in the back and sides as you do on your hairline and crown. If you're losing along hairline and crown, it's not stress. Any semi-normal diet will never make your hair fall out. And again, if it did, it would be everywhere. And you'd lose body hair too. If it's actually causing an odd scalp reaction that's inflaming folicles and making hair smaller, your best tool to fight it is Nizoral




> I used minox for 2.5 on my hairline at night before this massive shed


 It was probably the Minox. Minox causes shedding, and unfortunately, a lot of the shed hair, just never comes back. You'd lose most of it without the Minox eventually. But it speeds up the process by as much as 2 years, in just 2 months. It's not TE, it's more like euthanasia to a dying follicle.

Also, do not try to casually use Minox. As your hair is exposed to it, it becomes dependent on it. And when a dependent hair stops getting Minox and falls out, it never comes back. Even if you start using Minox again in a year or two. Cycling Minox will accelerate hair loss. Either use it for life, or don't touch it. This is not like Propecia, where you can go on and off it, without problems.

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## jamesst11

Ziggy, I think the only advice I can give at this point is PLEASE do NOT do ANYTHING out of DESPERATION!! That is how most of us got all messed up.  Oral minoxidil?  Hell no. DO NOT DO THIS.  Hair tattoo.. NO NO NO!! Not at your stage of hair loss.

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## WanderingOracle

> Hair tattoo.. NO NO NO!! Not at your stage of hair loss.


 The tattoo is good for masking the balding popping up through thinner hair. I'm not talking about shaving it off.
It's basically like a low maintenance version of Toppix.

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## jamesst11

Are you talking temporary SMP or permanent?  I personally would not advise anyone with a good amount of hair to do permanent SMP, especially if they have MPB... You are then dedicating yourself to a life of scalp tattooing.

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## WanderingOracle

> Are you talking temporary SMP or permanent?  I personally would not advise anyone with a good amount of hair to do permanent SMP, especially if they have MPB... You are then dedicating yourself to a life of scalp tattooing.


 Much different than dedicating yourself to a life of popping pills and dumping muck in your hair.
I mean think about it. 

All you have to do on Fin is take a pill every day that changes your entire body chemistry. 
And all you have to do with Minox, is slap some greasy, smelly gunk in your hair, 2x a day, every single day so your hair doesn't all fall out.
Those things seem quite simple and reasonable.

Meanwhile, a hair tattoo requires you sit in a chair for about 3 hours every five years. So inconvenient!

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## burtandernie

Why do you get to decide though what men want? If a guy wants perfect hair instead of just being happy with decent hair for his age why do you decide that is wrong? Its a perfectly fine expectation to shoot for perfection.

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## jamesst11

> Much different than dedicating yourself to a life of popping pills and dumping muck in your hair.
> I mean think about it. 
> 
> All you have to do on Fin is take a pill every day that changes your entire body chemistry. 
> And all you have to do with Minox, is slap some greasy, smelly gunk in your hair, 2x a day, every single day so your hair doesn't all fall out.
> Those things seem quite simple and reasonable.
> 
> Meanwhile, a hair tattoo requires you sit in a chair for about 3 hours every five years. So inconvenient!


 Minox foam is easy and simply.  I rub some through after a shower once a day.  I take fin every day as well.  For me, the only side effects have been opposite of what people warn.  Slightly increased libido, better mood, for energy and increased athletic performance.  So you can't really make blanket statements about these things if you are biased, or had a negative reaction yourself.  People take medications every day for a variety of things.  Some people, for example, take anti-anxiety meds, with a long list of side effects, including suicidal thoughts.  They take it knowing the risks and rewards and as adults make what they think is a proper judgement.  As we know from forums like this, hair loss can have DRASTIC effects on a man's self esteem, really impact their life or even ruin it.  Therefor, no, I do not believe that fin or minox are these evil horrible things, as long as they are thoroughly researched and taken with caution and awareness of one's physiology and side effects... a hair tattoo on the other hand can be a great idea, I admit and some of the results are amazing.  I just think it's more appropriate and will lead to less regret when one STRICTLY knows the direction of their hair loss, so they can plan for the future.  Ziggy's hair loss, like my own, is very recent and it may take a variety of paths.  Once again, I preface my statements usually with, "in my personal opinion" because obviously there is no strict right or wrong.

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## WanderingOracle

> Why do you get to decide though what men want? If a guy wants perfect hair instead of just being happy with decent hair for his age why do you decide that is wrong? Its a perfectly fine expectation to shoot for perfection.


 Because it's not going to happen. It's like a man who's 5'8" dreaming of being 6'4".
Setting yourself up for failure is generally a poor idea. I would think the high number of fatalistic posters we have around here, might be pretty good evidence of why that's a bad idea. Who here has come in as a NW2, progressed to a NW3 Diffuse, and bounced back to an NW1?
Even one person? If not, it's a bad idea.

That kind of thinking leads to stuff like this.



> So you can't really make blanket statements about these things if you are biased, or had a negative reaction yourself.


 I didn't. I've had nothing but excellent results from Fin. I never tried Minox, partly because Fin stopped my loss, and partly because I wasn't interested in that sort of commitment. Every day, 2x per day is something I've never done, and doubt I'd keep up with. If other guys want to, cool.

I'm just saying that all of these things are lifelong commitments. And out of the three, a tattoo is by far the least drastic and lowest maintenance.

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## jamesst11

> Because it's not going to happen. It's like a man who's 5'8" dreaming of being 6'4".
> Setting yourself up for failure is generally a poor idea. I would think the high number of fatalistic posters we have around here, might be pretty good evidence of why that's a bad idea. Who here has come in as a NW2, progressed to a NW3 Diffuse, and bounced back to an NW1?
> Even one person? If not, it's a bad idea.
> 
> That kind of thinking leads to stuff like this.
> I didn't. I've had nothing but excellent results from Fin. I never tried Minox, partly because Fin stopped my loss, and partly because I wasn't interested in that sort of commitment. Every day, 2x per day is something I've never done, and doubt I'd keep up with. If other guys want to, cool.
> 
> I'm just saying that all of these things are lifelong commitments. And out of the three, a tattoo is by far the least drastic and lowest maintenance.


 that's true, also these medications are never for certain.  I was considering SMP if I shave my head, especially if my transplanted area looks a little off and definitely for the scar.

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## WHTC Clinic

Ziggyz123.  Did you doc provide you with any guidance or options?

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## Ziggyz123

> Ziggyz123.  Did you doc provide you with any guidance or options?


 Unfortunately, no because they don't know or understand my issue.. I'm currently saving for a transplant so that's plan

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## Ziggyz123

> Ziggyz123.  Did you doc provide you with any guidance or options?


 Unfortunately, no because they don't know or understand my issue.. I'm currently saving for a transplant so that's plan

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## Dench57

> Unfortunately, no because they don't know or understand my issue...


 I'm learning that the hard way too Ziggy. Even this so called hair-loss specialist I saw in Harley Street didn't have a clue. Looks like we're on our own when it comes to androgenic alopecia.

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## jamesst11

Have you guys tried a very low dose of propecia, just to keep your DHT in check.  Like 1mg or even .5mg EOD?  Also, did you ever get testosterone and DHT tests?  I had a little pain and itching this past month.  I said f*ck it and got some nizoral 2% and that stuff works awesome for ME...I know it can be an issue for some people, but it really reduced my shedding and my itch and pain is completely gone.

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## Dench57

When I was using it I only used 0.5mg and then went down to 0.25mg a day. It still inhibits roughly the same amount as 1.5-2g so it won't make much difference in terms of side effects. My testosterone is high (30 when the normal range is 5-28) but not high enough to explain my situation. Still waiting for DHT results back.

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## Soonbald

Dench is your testo "30" while ON fin or without fin?? im 27 years old and my testo is just "17" how old are you?

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