# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Histogen at the ISHRS conference

## Kiwi

A colleague just sent me this. How is this not awesome.

_ HSC caused a response in over 80% of subjects who grew 40-60% more hair. Pretty impressive.

Current trials show 8% increase in hair density at 12 weeks decreasing to 6% at 24 weeks then rising to 30-40% at 48 weeks (average of all subjects)
It also works in difficult to treat temples with increased density of 20-25%

Hairs that were there at 1 year were still there at 2 years.

The conference was told a treatment course of two lots of 50 injections 6 weeks apart would cost USD2000. They say you have about 50 injections a session._

----------


## Jasari

> A colleague just sent me this. How is this not awesome.
> 
> _ HSC caused a response in over 80&#37; of subjects who grew 40-60% more hair. Pretty impressive.
> 
> Current trials show 8% increase in hair density at 12 weeks decreasing to 6% at 24 weeks then rising to 30-40% at 48 weeks (average of all subjects)
> It also works in difficult to treat temples with increased density of 20-25%
> 
> Hairs that were there at 1 year were still there at 2 years.
> 
> The conference was told a treatment course of two lots of 50 injections 6 weeks apart would cost USD2000. They say you have about 50 injections a session._


 Thats a pretty a good price -- About the same as getting something like TRX2 or other fairly useless topicals for a year. 

40-60% is alot though -- If there is around 2.2 hairs per graft and if around 10k grafts would give a bald norwood 5/6 cosmetic coverage this apparently gives the equivalent of a 4000 - 6000 graft hair transplant. Thats pretty crazy if true.

----------


## Scientalk56

2000 USD every two years is pretty expensive. 

concerning the number of injections and dose - nobody can tell, because phase II/III is supposed to check that.

Something like HSC, that bald people in the whole world will be depended on, so they can still hold their hair, shouldn't be expensive. because every bald guy will get the treatment every two years, an income from every bald guy in the world every two years will make histogen rich enough...
that 2000 price will make histogen bankrupt.. lol

anyway.. if that's the max amount of price that would be, it will drop eventually.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> 2000 USD *every two years* is pretty expensive. 
> 
> concerning the number of injections and dose - nobody can tell, because phase II/III is supposed to check that.
> 
> Something like HSC, that bald people in the whole world will be depended on, so they can still hold their hair, shouldn't be expensive. because every bald guy will get the treatment every two years, an income from every bald guy in the world every two years will make histogen rich enough...
> that 2000 price will make histogen bankrupt.. lol
> 
> anyway.. if that's the max amount of price that would be, it will drop eventually.


 We dont know that, and many may just pay that much fo x amount of time.

----------


## Jasari

> 2000 USD every two years is pretty expensive. 
> 
> concerning the number of injections and dose - nobody can tell, because phase II/III is supposed to check that.
> 
> Something like HSC, that bald people in the whole world will be depended on, so they can still hold their hair, shouldn't be expensive. because every bald guy will get the treatment every two years, an income from every bald guy in the world every two years will make histogen rich enough...
> that 2000 price will make histogen bankrupt.. lol
> 
> anyway.. if that's the max amount of price that would be, it will drop eventually.


 If it lasts 2 years that's only $20 per week -- Not too bad.

----------


## Artista

Kiwi,,it is awesome, thanks for posting

----------


## custards

Interesting to hear a dollar value.  If it's effective the pricing is more than reasonable.  Honestly although that's 1/4 of my annual income I would find a way to make it work.  I'm guessing guys who work fulltime probably wouldn't give it a second thought.

However 20&#37; non-response is going to cause a lot of broken hearts  :Big Grin:

----------


## 25 going on 65

All speculative until the product is on the market. But I would gladly pay $20 every week for hair. That costs less than Avodart.

----------


## BoSox

I wish they'd hurry up, I'm getting tired of rubbing concealer on my head. It's mentally and physically exhausting. Hurry Histogen /:

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I wish they'd hurry up, I'm getting tired of rubbing concealer on my head. It's mentally and physically exhausting. Hurry Histogen /:


 Same , I have a NW2 to maintain.

----------


## bananana

Guys, I think they still need to work on thos 20% non responders - in big numbers that is going to leave A LOT of broken hearts. Think about it, FUE works in probably 99% cases and still there are a lot of complaints, so I dont know - 20% is pretty big number, I'd wish they would cut it down to less than a single digit %...

And I would really hope that it's compoundable and/or bigger doses mean more/longer regrowth.

Anyways, these are all very good news.

----------


## dex89

is this proven to work on the temples/hairline?

----------


## neversaynever

> A colleague just sent me this. How is this not awesome.
> 
> _ HSC caused a response in over 80&#37; of subjects who grew 40-60% more hair. Pretty impressive.
> 
> Current trials show 8% increase in hair density at 12 weeks decreasing to 6% at 24 weeks then rising to 30-40% at 48 weeks (average of all subjects)
> It also works in difficult to treat temples with increased density of 20-25%
> 
> Hairs that were there at 1 year were still there at 2 years.
> 
> The conference was told a treatment course of two lots of 50 injections 6 weeks apart would cost USD2000. They say you have about 50 injections a session._


 It is great news, still best news bald men have had for many years. "increase in density". By that do they mean an increase in terminal hairs? or total hair count? Either would be great but total hair count (including vellus, thinner hairs) would be amazing.

2000 every 2 years (and it might be even more than 2 years) is a great price. We should all be happy with that price. And also, it might just be an introductory price, subject to decrease in time. A money back offer if the treatment doesnt work would be perfect.

All great news. Would love to hear about their plans. Phase 3. Updated timeline etc.

----------


## goingquick

Who is your colleague Kiwi?  Can you verify any of that info?

Also, what's with the "every 2 years" thing people are talking about?  Do the hair counts start diminishing after 2 years?  Is this just MPB resuming its course, in which case we could off-set it with meds like fin?

----------


## neversaynever

> Who is your colleague Kiwi?  Can you verify any of that info?
> 
> Also, what's with the "every 2 years" thing people are talking about?  Do the hair counts start diminishing after 2 years?  Is this just MPB resuming its course, in which case we could off-set it with meds like fin?


 2 years is just an assumption, because so far histogen can only look at the patients from earlier trials to evaluate if hair is still growing, which is about 2 years. High chance that it will last longer

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> 2 years is just an assumption, because so far histogen can only look at the patients from earlier trials to evaluate if hair is still growing, which is about 2 years. High chance that it will last longer


 As usual people are speculating like SHIT.

----------


## TravisB

The most important thing is - WHEN will it hit the market? Also, would Fin and Minox become redundant?

And Kiwi, how do we know your colleague isn't bullshitting?

----------


## Dazza

> And Kiwi, how do we know your colleague isn't bullshitting?


 Indeed. How did your colleague manage to get information no one else has been able to get? Even histogen hasn't reported this.

----------


## Kiwi

> The most important thing is - WHEN will it hit the market? Also, would Fin and Minox become redundant?
> 
> And Kiwi, how do we know your colleague isn't bullshitting?


 My colleague (more like a doctor patient relationship actually) was at the ISHRS conference. Apparently its just what was said at the conference. I don't think there would be any reason for him to be dishonest.

----------


## Kiwi

> As usual people are speculating like SHIT.


 I don't think its _bad_ speculation. Anything past the 2 year mark is speculation. All the crazy shit people were saying about Replicell was bad speculation - sadly the people who complain most about Histogen got bitter and burnt of Replicell so I tend to take what they say as a grain of salt. 

If Histogen effect works for 2 years thats great. I don't care about what happens after 2 years yet - because that would be speculation. 

If we're lucky during that 2 years something better will come to market. Who knows. If I have to fly to Japan and spend 6 weeks there in 2015 every two years... its a small price to pay for my confidance and peace of mind.

To be honest I'm at a point where if I didnt have a FUT scar I'd probably just shave my head. I'm too damn busy for the head crap and just want to get on with my life...

If Histogen gives me some of that then thank god!

----------


## UK_

Great thread Kiwi - its been a while since I've come across a decent thread worthy of reading - the site really has deteriorated IMHO from how it used to be.

Lets hope Histogen can achieve pan-Asian approval because im all set to fly over & have my first treatment - &#163;1200 is nothing for a treatment like this - being as though Harley clinics charge up to &#163;800 for a shitty Acell/PRP treatment that has zero clinical backing.

Just a quick question though... who is the "colleague"? 

Was this received from Gail in the form of an email response?

----------


## neversaynever

Even if its just 2 years, its fine by me. Especially if we can shelve minox and fin and anything else.

hope to see a aderans style presentation from histogen soon, they havent given us that yet (not that they owe it to us).

----------


## Kiwi

> Great thread Kiwi - its been a while since I've come across a decent thread worthy of reading - the site really has deteriorated IMHO from how it used to be.
> 
> Lets hope Histogen can achieve pan-Asian approval because im all set to fly over & have my first treatment - &#163;1200 is nothing for a treatment like this - being as though Harley clinics charge up to &#163;800 for a shitty Acell/PRP treatment that has zero clinical backing.
> 
> Just a quick question though... who is the "colleague"? 
> 
> Was this received from Gail in the form of an email response?


 Thanks man. Its a pleasure to help and do something that might make people feel hope.

I don't want to say but when I read that I felt warm and positive for the first time in ages.

If I was a "decent" moderator / could moderate this thread I would delete anything that was anti hope. 

Actually can I moderate this thread Mr Moderator? 

Hmmm on that I don't see how moderating swear words is more important then moderating the anti hope messages people readily vomit into these threads :P

----------


## Gjm127

As a person that worries on and off about hair loss... this is AMAZING news.
Can't wait to see Histogen make its way on the market!!!

----------


## neversaynever

> Thanks man. Its a pleasure to help and do something that might make people feel hope.
> 
> I don't want to say but when I read that I felt warm and positive for the first time in ages.
> 
> If I was a "decent" moderator / could moderate this thread I would delete anything that was anti hope. 
> 
> Actually can I moderate this thread Mr Moderator? 
> 
> Hmmm on that I don't see how moderating swear words is more important then moderating the anti hope messages people readily vomit into these threads :P


 If you get a chance, can you ask further details? Are the stats on increased hair counts or increased terminal hairs? Did they give any other details? I imagine they gave a presentation, so there must be more info....

----------


## vinnytr

This is awesome news  :Smile:  

KIWI , can you find out from your friend if this can be used in people that had HT to increase density & lower hairline ?

----------


## hellouser

> 2000 USD every two years is pretty expensive.


 TAKE MY MONEY!

$2,000 USD is a lot easier to save up every two years than $8,000-14,000 in a single shot for a solution with a good HT doctor or Dr. Gho.

I'll gladly pay that price every two years to regrow and maintain what I get out of it. Hell, I got $2,000 ready for the procedure RIGHT NOW.

----------


## neversaynever

> TAKE MY MONEY!
> 
> $2,000 USD is a lot easier to save up every two years than $8,000-14,000 in a single shot for a solution with a good HT doctor or Dr. Gho.
> 
> I'll gladly pay that price every two years to regrow and maintain what I get out of it. Hell, I got $2,000 ready for the procedure RIGHT NOW.


 Completely forgot its in $. Thats £1200 for me. Absolute bargain IMO if it works like they say it does. If it was available right now i would be willing to pay triple. Hope they give us some proper info soon

----------


## TravisB

I don't like to be a party pooper but let's not get too excited.

I smell bullshit.

Don't you think if they really achieved such great results it would be in the worldwide news? Or at least the whole case would be more loud. Such regrowth is not something that goes by silently, you know.

Right now the only "source" we have is some Kiwi's "colleague" who might as well be lying. We have ZERO evidence.

----------


## neversaynever

> I don't like to be a party pooper but let's not get too excited.
> 
> I smell bullshit.
> 
> Don't you think if they really achieved such great results it would be in the worldwide news? Or at least the whole case would be more loud. Such regrowth is not something that goes by silently, you know.
> 
> Right now the only "source" we have is some Kiwi's "colleague" who might as well be lying. We have ZERO evidence.


 Phase 2 is still in motion, and histogen havent been the type to run to mainstream media with news.

In fact, the only guys ive seen in the mainstream recently is the Dr Cots team, and thats because he alerted everyone.

If i were in charge at histogen at this moment in time, id prefer to keep things very quiet, at least until phase 3 starts. Its not in their benefit to drum up mainstream attention when they are still wrapping up phase 2.

And if the media do catch on, histogen only have to refuse interviews. What will the big media companies talk about? PDF presentations and an interview on the bald truth? Whenever replicel or whoever else were in the news, its because they approached the mainstream, not the other way around.

Youre right about zero evidence though. But im quite sure histogen will release an update soon (as they have done in the past). So we'll know soon enough.

I havent been able to open their site all evening. Same for everyone else?

----------


## Conpecia

I have been waiting all year for news like this. If we can get a confirmation that it's legitimate, Christmas has come early. 

Let's hope it's compoundable!

----------


## eqvist

IF, they have this very good results I really hope they focus on to get it on the market as quickly as possible. They can always do a later update with another even better solution.

Isn&#180;t it someone els that knows anyone that was on ISHRS conference?

----------


## Scientalk56

> I don't like to be a party pooper but let's not get too excited.
> 
> I smell bullshit.
> 
> Don't you think if they really achieved such great results it would be in the worldwide news? Or at least the whole case would be more loud. Such regrowth is not something that goes by silently, you know.
> 
> Right now the only "source" we have is some Kiwi's "colleague" who might as well be lying. We have ZERO evidence.


 You're right, the only thing that can be taken seriously is a published scientific journal that explains the clinical trial.
for example, histogen phase 1 trial : "http://jddonline.com/articles/dermatology/1650" 
this kind of article is the one that can be taken seriously by doctors or the media.

and yes, Histogen website has been down for day or two..

----------


## eqvist

Why does it feels good that the website is down?

----------


## Pate

Not sure why people are so suspicious, this isn't really anything new. Just a summary of what we already knew with a few snippets of info that obviously came out at the conference. 

We already knew it had a roughly 80&#37; response rate.

We already knew it had results at 3 months, slipped slightly at 5 followed by a strong result at 12.

We already knew it worked at the temples.

We already knew the average results were around +40% density with best results up to 100% increase in hair count.

We already knew hairs persist out to 2 years and probably longer.

The only totally new info is the price guidance. Which is great, depending on injection spacing. If it's only 4mm spacing then 50 injections will only cover about a square inch. They've talked about 4mm spacing before so hopefully they can expand it a bit or the NW 6s are going to be paying a lot for full coverage!

At 6mm spacing it would be about 2.5 square inches. Which is better...

----------


## goingquick

Well that's really discouraging.

----------


## frankJ

Why are people expecting that treatments have to be repeated every two years?  According to Dr. Gail Naughton, in a Q/A video on Youtube from some time ago she said you should expect to keep any hair that Histogen grows for as long as you had your original hair.  I believe she used that example that if you start loose your hair at 30 you should expect to keep it for at least 30 years.  (I think she should probable subtract the years before you reached puberty though.)

----------


## Kiwi

> I don't like to be a party pooper but let's not get too excited.
> 
> I smell bullshit.
> 
> Don't you think if they really achieved such great results it would be in the worldwide news? Or at least the whole case would be more loud. Such regrowth is not something that goes by silently, you know.
> 
> Right now the only "source" we have is some Kiwi's "colleague" who might as well be lying. We have ZERO evidence.


 Rack off looser.
Go jump in a lake.
You ****ing *****.
I hope you stay bald.

----------


## TravisB

> Why are people expecting that treatments have to be repeated every two years?  According to Dr. Gail Naughton, in a Q/A video on Youtube from some time ago she said you should expect to keep any hair that Histogen grows for as long as you had your original hair.  I believe she used that example that if you start loose your hair at 30 you should expect to keep it for at least 30 years.  (I think she should probable subtract the years before you reached puberty though.)


 I this was the case, then wouldn't 2000$ be too low price? So, you pay only 2000$ and you regrow and keep your hair for 20-30 years? Sounds too wonderful to be true. And Histogen would hardly earn anything this way.

----------


## Kiwi

> Why are people expecting that treatments have to be repeated every two years?  According to Dr. Gail Naughton, in a Q/A video on Youtube from some time ago she said you should expect to keep any hair that Histogen grows for as long as you had your original hair.  I believe she used that example that if you start loose your hair at 30 you should expect to keep it for at least 30 years.  (I think she should probable subtract the years before you reached puberty though.)


 I remember this too. Who knows - we'll just have to wait and see.

----------


## Kiwi

> I this was the case, then wouldn't 2000$ be too low price? So, you pay only 2000$ and you regrow and keep your hair for 20-30 years? Sounds too wonderful to be true. And Histogen would hardly earn anything this way.


 Hey tosser why dont you just **** off. Seriously if you've got nothing positive to say just **** off.

You're a total dick head.

----------


## Kiwi

Sweet! Dick head is allowed  :Smile:

----------


## TravisB

> Rack off looser.
> Go jump in a lake.
> You ****ing *****.
> I hope you stay bald.


 ROFL and there we have it. Kiwi is a troll.

Why should anyone believe you you f.u.c.k.i.n.g c.u.n.t? You presented zero evidence other than your gay "collleague". I'm tring to be polite and ask logical questions, and you insult me.

Typical troll, or wishful thinking behavior.

Just look at his posting history.

----------


## neversaynever

> I this was the case, then wouldn't 2000$ be too low price? So, you pay only 2000$ and you regrow and keep your hair for 20-30 years? Sounds too wonderful to be true. And Histogen would hardly earn anything this way.


 If it works like they say it works and have HSC throughout asia, europe and the states, theyll make alot. Might become a treatment people run too when they start balding. And thats alot of people.

----------


## Kiwi

> ROFL and there we have it. Kiwi is a troll.
> 
> Why should anyone believe you you f.u.c.k.i.n.g c.u.n.t? You presented zero evidence other than your gay "collleague". I'm tring to be polite and ask logical questions, and you insult me.
> 
> Typical troll, or wishful thinking behavior.
> 
> Just look at his posting history.


 I'm not a troll. I wanted to share something positive - as per usual idiots like you come and vomit up your usual crap and bring the whole vibe down.

You're a dick. I'm happy you're here.

Really though why say anything? We're enjoying something. Does it empower you?

The hair transplant doctor I emailed who attended the conference just repeated to me what he heard.

It's not meant to be ground breaking, but good positive vibes, man I'd love to just punch you in the face for being a nigel no mates / negative douche bag.

----------


## Pate

> I this was the case, then wouldn't 2000$ be too low price? So, you pay only 2000$ and you regrow and keep your hair for 20-30 years? Sounds too wonderful to be true. And Histogen would hardly earn anything this way.


 Say Histogen's profit margin is $500 of that $2,000.

Say 5% of the 40 million balding men and 30 million balding women in the US get it done. That's 3.5M in America alone, at least double that for the rest of Europe and Asia, Canada, Australia, NZ etc. Say 10M people in all.

That's $5 BILLION profit for Histogen, and 20 billion revenue. The entire hair loss industry (surgical, non-surgical and pharma) is currently 'only' a billion dollars a year. 

"Hardly earn anything"?! The more this treatment works and the longer it lasts, the more people will get it. It will become as common as laser hair removal or botox. Histogen actually stands to make more money from a one-off, cheap treatment because market penetration will be so much more.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I this was the case, then wouldn't 2000$ be too low price? So, you pay only 2000$ and you regrow and keep your hair for 20-30 years? Sounds too wonderful to be true. And Histogen would hardly earn anything this way.


 Not true.

There will always be balding people with every generation.

So they will get a good ROI.

If this is good enough, I can honestly see GPs referring patients to get this treatment done as a preventative measure.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> ROFL and there we have it. Kiwi is a troll.
> 
> Why should anyone believe you you f.u.c.k.i.n.g c.u.n.t? You presented zero evidence other than your gay "collleague". I'm tring to be polite and ask logical questions, and you insult me.
> 
> Typical troll, or wishful thinking behavior.
> 
> Just look at his posting history.


 Histogen have regrown hair on human scalp.

Kiwi is a long time poster.

He has had HTs etc.

Why would he troll?

----------


## Wiffle

> Sweet! Dick head is allowed


 LOL.   :Smile: 

Thanks Kiwi for the info.  

Now, when get we fly out to Asia to get our fix?   :Big Grin:

----------


## BoSox

http://youtu.be/HWN0bqvnFIw

Many years until its available. Well I hope this will give nw7 full head of hair, or else I'm ****ed.

----------


## MrBlonde

I think a bit of perspective is needed here.  As much as Kiwi's news is exciting on the first read it is still a million miles away from clinical trial results and until Histogen mirror those exact words in a press statement it is 100% unofficial.

Until then its basically a "friend of a friend said the following" type information, which may turn out to be valid or not.  I'm not doubting Kiwi's integrity and good intentions in starting this thread but we have no idea who his friend is and I don't see the need for such abusive language when people are being realistic.  There is a big difference between being realistic and a hope crusher, the poster who quite rightly said this is not official got a torrent of abuse.  Remember we are all in this together, he wants a cure as much as Kiwi but to get our hopes up only to be dashed is not something we need to add to our MPB.

I was greatly underwhelmed when I saw the latest photos from Histogen, for me it could go either way with them and deep down I think they may offer a sides free equivilant of minox at best.  I hope I'm wrong brothers, I hope I am wrong.

----------


## MrBlonde

What the hell is this?  We are injecting foreskin into our heads?  Oh the irony of this with the phrase dickhead getting clearence in this thread  :Big Grin: 




> So this is the stuff made from human foreskin fibroblasts? I hope you﻿ have signed informed consent documents from the "donors" of those human body parts. I'm guessing the foreskins were stolen; no permission granted by their owners. Histogen is a purveyor of purloined penises.


 


> They are using foreskin fibroblasts which are the stem cells that would change﻿ to be the highly erogenous fine touch sexual receptors of the penis, 65%-85% to be exact. China has gotten their stem cells from cheek mucosa. Histogen- I couldn't be more disgusted.

----------


## Losing_It

> What the hell is this?  We are injecting foreskin into our heads?  Oh the irony of this with the phrase dickhead getting clearence in this thread


 You must be the last person to find this out. It is also used for Dermagraft and Trancyte and those two products recieved FDA approval ages ago.

----------


## Scientalk56

Mrblonde, couldn't agree more i'm happy to see this kind of posts.

Regarding the photos, i was disappointed too, but if you give it another thought, you would understand that they didn't inject the whole scalp/head, they just injected small bald areas - and those small areas have shown significant regrowth. 
You can see an example from phase 1 trials:
the image:
h a i r s i t e . com/hair-loss/img/uploaded/2879_image734.jpg

on the same head, they injected both placebo and hsc injection.

to cover a full head, they need greater number of injections. 
I hope they do that in phase II/III trials.

----------


## john2399

Kiwi, if your lying about your so called inside info than your just pure evil to mess with the baldnation. However, if you are truly telling the truth than godbless your contribution to help us have some hope, because we need it.

----------


## neversaynever

How far into phase 2 are they?

Will there be a phase 2b or is it phase 3 next?

----------


## Scientalk56

phase II B

----------


## neversaynever

Ohhhh. This is a long way of then. 2016?

----------


## neversaynever

and it is interesting that their site is still down.

How would an early asian release work? would it be pre-phase 3?

----------


## Scientalk56

There's a possibility for phase II/III in 2013. that's what dr zeiring said in his last interview with spencer. but nobody knows yet.

if everything goes well, they will end phase 3 in 2015 and release it in asia. 
But in USA they need an FDA approval.

2013 - phase II b / III a   (a year)
2014 - phase III b           (a year)
2015 release
That's what i hope it would be if everything goes well.

----------


## Kiwi

> Kiwi, if your lying about your so called inside info than your just pure evil to mess with the baldnation. However, if you are truly telling the truth than godbless your contribution to help us have some hope, because we need it.


 Bro why would I lie.

Heck its not like what I posted is even ground breaking news. I'm depressed and sad that its not here yet and when my doc shared what he heard at a conference with me it gave me just a little glimmer of hope which I figure we could all do with.  

Noob jerks like Travis can **** off and die man - ignore the haters and whiners. They deserve to loose all their hair if they can't keep on topic and have nothing positive to say.

----------


## neversaynever

> There's a possibility for phase II/III in 2013. that's what dr zeiring said in his last interview with spencer. but nobody knows yet.
> 
> if everything goes well, they will end phase 3 in 2015 and release it in asia. 
> But in USA they need an FDA approval.
> 
> 2013 - phase II b / III a   (a year)
> 2014 - phase III b           (a year)
> 2015 release
> That's what i hope it would be if everything goes well.


 Hmm its a nice hope, but theyll probably not start next phase until late 2013 given their track record so far, and start phase 3 in 2015. But lets hope its your version, not mine!

----------


## Ginkosama

Jesus, calculating cash flows for the pharmaceutical industry must be such a pain in the ass...
Every new drug development is such a risky investment...

----------


## clandestine

This thread is win. Kiwi; I, and others, are entirely appreciative of your post. Thank you.

Hope is all we have. Start to ******ing realize it; tbt.

----------


## Breaking Bald

Pretty sure the site has been updated?

----------


## Kiwi

> Pretty sure the site has been updated?


 What you mean willis?

----------


## rdawg

2k is alot at the moment IMO, only because I haven't seen this stuff make huge gains.

if the solution/results get better this year in phase 2b, I'd say it's a good price, but for what it does now, not worth it.

At this moment, judging by pictures and the statements, it seems to maintain and then grow about 20-30% hair, that's solid, but that might only bump you up a norwood, is that really worth 2000 dollars?

Just hoping they improve the results in this phase.

----------


## rdawg

> There's a possibility for phase II/III in 2013. that's what dr zeiring said in his last interview with spencer. but nobody knows yet.
> 
> if everything goes well, they will end phase 3 in 2015 and release it in asia. 
> But in USA they need an FDA approval.
> 
> 2013 - phase II b / III a   (a year)
> 2014 - phase III b           (a year)
> 2015 release
> That's what i hope it would be if everything goes well.


 Im very confused on the american process.

A: why hasn't it started?
B: why cant it go at the same time as the asian one?
C: Why does it take an extra 2-3 years?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> 2k is alot at the moment IMO, only because I haven't seen this stuff make huge gains.
> 
> if the solution/results get better this year in phase 2b, I'd say it's a good price, but for what it does now, not worth it.
> 
> At this moment, judging by pictures and the statements, it seems to maintain and then grow about 20-30% hair, that's solid, but that might only bump you up a norwood, is that really worth 2000 dollars?
> 
> Just hoping they improve the results in this phase.


 If you are a NW3,NW2, or starting to bald. Yes it is.

----------


## rdawg

> If you are a NW3,NW2, or starting to bald. Yes it is.


 That's very true actually, I'd say it's worth it then for sure.

but NW4+ not at all, NW4 going to NW3 wont help much with confidence and will feel like a bit of a waste of 2000. Great product(as of right now, this can change) for moderate sufferers, yet to be seen if it's good for heavy sufferers.

Here's hoping Fin keeps me at NW2.5-3 until this stuff comes out like it's doing so far.

----------


## Pate

> That's very true actually, I'd say it's worth it then for sure.
> 
> but NW4+ not at all, NW4 going to NW3 wont help much with confidence and will feel like a bit of a waste of 2000. Great product(as of right now, this can change) for moderate sufferers, yet to be seen if it's good for heavy sufferers.
> 
> Here's hoping Fin keeps me at NW2.5-3 until this stuff comes out like it's doing so far.


 I disagree about NW4+. The advantage for these guys will be combining with HTs to increase density. Histogen said after their previous trial that each injection averaged 25 new hairs, so 100 injections could potentially give 2500 new hairs which is about 1200 FUs. You'd be hard pressed to find a top class FUE doc who'd give you 1200 grafts for $2k.

Add a second set of 100 and you might get the equivalent of around 2500 grafts. For a NW6 that could make all the difference.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> That's very true actually, I'd say it's worth it then for sure.
> 
> but NW4+ not at all, NW4 going to NW3 wont help much with confidence and will feel like a bit of a waste of 2000. Great product(as of right now, this can change) for moderate sufferers, yet to be seen if it's good for heavy sufferers.
> 
> Here's hoping Fin keeps me at NW2.5-3 until this stuff comes out like it's doing so far.


 A NW4 can use this in conjunction with a HT to go 2 Norwoods down.

I can imagine HT doctors becoming less conservative with their HTs once this comes out.

----------


## Kiwi

OMG - if I can go from a norwood 4 to a 3 then its totally worth it.

If Histogen can slow down my hairloss without taking away my labido then yes I'm going to pay $2000  :Smile: 

Propecia almost cost me my marriage!!!

----------


## goingquick

> Add a second set of 100 and you might get the equivalent of around 2500 grafts. For a NW6 that could make all the difference.


 But could they space out those injections to cover an NW6 zone, or do they have to adhere to 50 injections within one square inch (or 2.5 square inch if they are doing 6mm spacing, as you mentioned in a previous post).

----------


## FearTheLoss

What about the possibility of unlimited donor hair? That is a big deal too!

----------


## vinnytr

> What about the possibility of unlimited donor hair? That is a big deal too!


 That would just be awesome !!

----------


## Hair Bear

> What about the possibility of unlimited donor hair? That is a big deal too!


 Sure if you have unlimited funds to finance hair transplants and then injections on donor sites.

I don't see the costs of hair transplants going down even after an alternative such as histogen is found as hair transplants are labor intensive and require a lot of time, artistry, skill, effort, and patience to perform. 
Yes I am aware that there is an automated bot that can perform the task but it remains to be seen if it is at all useful or as good as a human.

All in all regardless of what kiwi has said here I do feel histogen is on to something and can only hope it scales well.

----------


## Kiwi

> Sure if you have unlimited funds to finance hair transplants and then injections on donor sites.
> 
> I don't see the costs of hair transplants going down even after an alternative such as histogen is found as hair transplants are labor intensive and require a lot of time, artistry, skill, effort, and patience to perform. 
> Yes I am aware that there is an automated bot that can perform the task but it remains to be seen if it is at all useful or as good as a human.
> 
> All in all regardless of what kiwi has said here I do feel histogen is on to something and can only hope it scales well.


 Say what :P

I got this thread started. I'm a massive fan of histogen and hope it works!!!

----------


## Scientalk56

> Im very confused on the american process.
> 
> A: why hasn't it started?
> B: why cant it go at the same time as the asian one?
> C: Why does it take an extra 2-3 years?


 After *phase III b* is done, they have to take FDA approval to be able to market it in USA. and this wil take another year at least.

----------


## Pate

> But could they space out those injections to cover an NW6 zone, or do they have to adhere to 50 injections within one square inch (or 2.5 square inch if they are doing 6mm spacing, as you mentioned in a previous post).


 They could theoretically space them out as much as they (or you) want. Even single injections grew hair in the Phase I/II trial.

----------


## john2399

So is this the plan in 2 years, get hair transplant + histogen and expect a good amount of hair? I guess we have a little hope.

----------


## Hair Bear

> Say what :P
> 
> I got this thread started. I'm a massive fan of histogen and hope it works!!!


 Sorry Kiwi, what i wrote didn't translate well as to what I meant, what I actually meant was that histogen has been doing really well for some time now, even before reading the wonderful news you posted I expected histogen to have something plausible to bring to the table, I just like to keep my enthusiasm at a realistic level as I know there is still a lot of work to do.

At this point I guess the staff at histogen will once again assess its results and decide if they are happy with it or not, they may want to tweak it more which may result into added time, months if not years so I wouldn't really like to speculate on a timeline right now until release.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Sure if you have unlimited funds to finance hair transplants and then injections on donor sites.
> 
> I don't see the costs of hair transplants going down even after an alternative such as histogen is found as hair transplants are labor intensive and require a lot of time, artistry, skill, effort, and patience to perform. 
> Yes I am aware that there is an automated bot that can perform the task but it remains to be seen if it is at all useful or as good as a human.
> 
> All in all regardless of what kiwi has said here I do feel histogen is on to something and can only hope it scales well.


 Yes, but if someone is a NW4 or NW5 and got a transplant and then added histogen to the mix and got another transplant that could be life changing. Also, once the ht hair is in place on top they wouldn't have to do anything as that hair is not susceptible to DHT so their hairloss problem would be at bay.

----------


## SoClose

Please excuse what may be novice questions, but I'm a little confused about Histogen; does it have the potential to grow entirely new hair, and if so, how?

The other question I have is regarding SMP and Histogen. If I got a scalp tattoo, would that affect my chances of success with something like Histogen and/or a hair transplant?

Apologies if these are already answered; a lot of these threads are hundreds of pages long and I don't really have the time to sift through them. Thanks.

----------


## neversaynever

perhaps spencer can ask them about the issue with the macro shots. The shots are either different people or there is no visible improvement.

So hopeful of histogen, but there is something strange about it all.

----------


## Jasari

essentially the moment histogen arrives one shouldnt ever develop a norwood level greater than their norwood at the time of the release.

For everyone below 20 it should be a cure.

With a hair transpant a norwood 5 with histogen could get the illusion of full coverage - most norwood 6s might look alittle thin still.

----------


## 2020

flawless logic from you people... it can increase density by 40&#37; with each round of shots. 
NW1 is 100%, NW6 is 20%. That's 500% difference. 20*1.40*1.40*1.40.... wouldn't you eventually get to that starting 100%? Where is the ****ing logic in that? Growth is compoundable. What is the problem?

The real issue here is their secrecy and their poor pictures. Where are those new before/after pictures by the way? That's a major problem. It's equally likely that Histogen will fail and then we won't get anything. It's HSC or nothing. I wouldn't count on anything else for the next 10+ years

----------


## Jasari

> flawless logic from you people... it can increase density by 40% with each round of shots. 
> NW1 is 100%, NW6 is 20%. That's 500% difference. 20*1.40*1.40*1.40.... wouldn't you eventually get to that starting 100%? Where is the ****ing logic in that? Growth is compoundable. What is the problem?
> 
> The real issue here is their secrecy and their poor pictures. Where are those new before/after pictures by the way? That's a major problem. It's equally likely that Histogen will fail and then we won't get anything. It's HSC or nothing. I wouldn't count on anything else for the next 10+ years

----------


## FearTheLoss

On a serious note, this is going to turn into a very depressing forum if Histogen releases bad results in February or gives up on the HSC....

I believe everyone should just go on the "FearTheLosss Big 3" for now.. :Big Grin: 

Propecia (to maintain/hopeful growth) Nizoral (scalp condition) and PRAY (pray that those work and that histogen releases this product soon) :Smile:

----------


## Pate

> Please excuse what may be novice questions, but I'm a little confused about Histogen; does it have the potential to grow entirely new hair, and if so, how?
> 
> The other question I have is regarding SMP and Histogen. If I got a scalp tattoo, would that affect my chances of success with something like Histogen and/or a hair transplant?
> 
> Apologies if these are already answered; a lot of these threads are hundreds of pages long and I don't really have the time to sift through them. Thanks.


 Nobody knows for sure yet. Histogen have talked about growing new follicles but haven't proven it yet. They apparently tried it on slick bald scalp in the latest round of trials, Ziering mentioned it in a previous interview with Spencer IIRC. But no word on whether it grew anything at all. But it may not need to generate new follicles if it can resuscitate nearly dead ones.

Replicel on the other hand has been proven to grow new follicles in mice, but their human results were underwhelming.

----------


## Desmond84

> On a serious note, this is going to turn into a very depressing forum if Histogen releases bad results in February or gives up on the HSC....
> 
> I believe everyone should just go on the "FearTheLosss Big 3" for now..
> 
> Propecia (to maintain/hopeful growth) Nizoral (scalp condition) and PRAY (pray that those work and that histogen releases this product soon)


 Bahhahahaha I've been on "FearTheLosss Big 3" for over 6 months now  :Wink: 

On a serious note though, if Histogen is SAFE, there is no doubt that it will be released! So, there's no more speculations about that. Phase 2 (efficacy studies) have proven successful...

The real question now is whether Replicel/Aderans will make your follicles DHT-resistant, if NOT, I don't see any reason as to why you would use their therapies over Histogen! Histogen has shown simply far better growth...

Uhhh the waiting game is a b!t@$  :Smile:

----------


## goingquick

> Bahhahahaha I've been on "FearTheLosss Big 3" for over 6 months now 
> 
> On a serious note though, if Histogen is SAFE, there is no doubt that it will be released! So, there's no more speculations about that. Phase 2 (efficacy studies) have proven successful...


 I agree with you for the most part, but their photos have been really unimpressive.  Didn't Zierring say he was going to post more photos during his last talk with Spencer?

----------


## Pate

> I agree with you for the most part, but their photos have been really unimpressive.  Didn't Zierring say he was going to post more photos during his last talk with Spencer?


 I've pointed this out several times before but it bears repeating. You can't judge the impact of a mere 20 injections on long haired subjects after only three months. Even HT grafts take 6 months or more to grow in and they are fully healthy follicles.

Get a photo of a couple hundred injections with repeats after 12 months before judging how big a cosmetic effect HSC has.

----------


## Kirby_

> It's equally likely that Histogen will fail and then we won't get anything. It's HSC or nothing. I wouldn't count on anything else for the next 10+ years


 FWIW, I hate to be pessimistic, but I agree with you on that. We haven't had any advances in the last 10 years, after all. Unless the Prostaglandin theory can somehow show a way forward, things don't look good.

----------


## rdawg

> FWIW, I hate to be pessimistic, but I agree with you on that. We haven't had any advances in the last 10 years, after all. Unless the Prostaglandin theory can somehow show a way forward, things don't look good.


 yes with two products on the verge of being approved for phase III(bim and histogen), things dont look good at all :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Histogen is not in phase IIb due to failure, they know it works, they're just trying to make it better.

this is not even counting the PGD2 stuff, CB and the fact that science and technology has grown quite alot in the past 10 years, we are only going to get more advance, it's not like less and less products will be introduced for hairloss, they will always be searching for the next way to help us.(and really, with the big 3, we already do have a little bit of help.)

----------


## HARIRI

Desmond84, You sound very intelligent. I really love to read your replies. I think Histogen is only thing that might work well as other treatments are still in their early phases without any transparency in their results. Its going to be like a propecia with zero sexual sides. Once its available in Asia, I would one of the first clients for sure. I didnt touch my crown for this reason because I'm thinking that transplanted areas wont work well with Histogen. However hairline is a must to me so I couldn't wait. Thank you Kiwi for sharing this interesting news to us  :Big Grin:

----------


## Kiwi

> Desmond84, You sound very intelligent. I really love to read your replies. I think Histogen is only thing that might work well as other treatments are still in their early phases without any transparency in their results. Its going to be like a propecia with zero sexual sides. Once its available in Asia, I would one of the first clients for sure. I didnt touch my crown for this reason because I'm thinking that transplanted areas wont work well with Histogen. However hairline is a must to me so I couldn't wait. Thank you Kiwi for sharing this interesting news to us


 No worries. I do but try  :Smile:

----------


## neversaynever

Im just as hopeful as you guys, but its hard to disagree with Dr Cole in the first 3 minutes of this video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khVm4wSpzjo

They've given lots of great numbers, but not a single impressive photo. I find that a bit strange. I imagine photos are a big part of the evidence collection during trials. Histogen being backed by alot of money and alot of science, cant even take pictures with the same lighting?

Anyways, I do hope their numbers are real.

----------


## Scientalk56

> Im just as hopeful as you guys, but its hard to disagree with Dr Cole in the first 3 minutes of this video..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khVm4wSpzjo
> 
> They've given lots of great numbers, but not a single impressive photo. I find that a bit strange. I imagine photos are a big part of the evidence collection during trials. Histogen being backed by alot of money and alot of science, cant even take pictures with the same lighting?
> 
> Anyways, I do hope their numbers are real.


 They didn't inject the whole scalp, they injected small areas, so there's no reason to see hair growth in the whole head.
and as zeiring said, how many scam companies publish great "before"and"after" photos, that in fact are lies.. 

Yeah i agree with dr cole, but let the science and clinical trials talk.

----------


## neversaynever

> They didn't inject the whole scalp, they injected small areas, so there's no reason to see hair growth in the whole head.
> and as zeiring said, how many scam companies publish great "before"and"after" photos, that in fact are lies.. 
> 
> Yeah i agree with dr cole, but let the science and clinical trials talk.


 I understand its small areas, but there should at least be macro photos showing clear growth. But the macro's provided either show no improvement or the before and after dont correlate at all (different people?).

I find it hard to imagine Histogen are lying, especially when they present their findings in front of other professionals at various conferences. 

Happy to give the benefit of the doubt for now, looking forward to their next update.

----------


## rdawg

> I understand its small areas, but there should at least be macro photos showing clear growth. But the macro's provided either show no improvement or the before and after dont correlate at all (different people?).
> 
> I find it hard to imagine Histogen are lying, especially when they present their findings in front of other professionals at various conferences. 
> 
> Happy to give the benefit of the doubt for now, looking forward to their next update.


 We'll see more within a few months, I think Phase IIa officially ends at the end of December, so I'd expect another update around February/March or so.

They dont need investors and it's too early to advertise so they really dont have to show anything which is unfortunate for us.

I do wonder, are they planning on injecting the entire or most of the scalp in the next phase?

----------


## mjolnir

> I understand its small areas, but there should at least be macro photos showing clear growth. But the macro's provided either show no improvement or the before and after dont correlate at all (different people?).
> 
> I find it hard to imagine Histogen are lying, especially when they present their findings in front of other professionals at various conferences. 
> 
> Happy to give the benefit of the doubt for now, looking forward to their next update.


 There have been macro photos showing clear growth. Just not as much as people on here were hoping for. Histogen works, and it'll get to market in a few years, provided there aren't any major safety issues discovered. Will it bump you up a full NW? Too early to tell. Will it do as well as minox and fin, but with the added convenience of only being needed once every couple years? Almost certainly.

----------


## rdawg

> There have been macro photos showing clear growth. Just not as much as people on here were hoping for. Histogen works, and it'll get to market in a few years, provided there aren't any major safety issues discovered. Will it bump you up a full NW? Too early to tell. Will it do as well as minox and fin, but with the added convenience of only being needed once every couple years? Almost certainly.


 I think it's guarenteed to be better. There are a few things that make me even more excited though:

1. What happens when they inject more often?(as well as the entire scalp/hairloss areas)
2. How much better can this product be when combined with Fin(or any dht inhbitor) as well as minoxidil! two stimulators can potentially boost this product alot!

definitely starting to get excited for histogen, everyone keeps saying we wont have a product for 5+ years, we're almost in 2013 now, this product is going to be out within 2-3 years now(in asia). Phase IIb(1 year) and Phase III(1 year plus a couple months) left.

----------


## Pate

Since we got Kiwis 50 injections repeated at 6 weeks for $2000 info, I've been doing a lot of mental calcs about it.

I'll need somewhere around 250 injections to cover my thinning areas, assuming 6mm spacing. Repeated at 6 weeks that's 10 grand for one treatment. Add a repeat at say 6 months, that's 20 grand, which is about the cost of a couple of decent fue sessions with a good doctor.

So if that treatment can grow more hair than a top class fue session, it's well worth it, given no scarring and no donor depletion. I'm getting 1000 injections total for 20k. If it grows on average 8 new terminal hairs per injection, that's approx equivalent to 4000 fus by fue. 4000 fus for 20k would be $5 a graft which in my admittedly not very knowledgeable understanding of HTs seems about average.

Now... Histogen said on average HSC produced 25 new hairs per injection. Most would be terminal. So on that logic, HSC should easily outperform FUE on a cost basis if you get an average result. With the added bonus that you deplete no donor and you don't look like you got mangled if it doesn't work. The main advantage of FUE is that the hairs will be permanent while we don't yet know how long HSC will last.

It's looking promising, guys. Not a cure, but potentially a new gold standard for thinning areas.

----------


## john2399

> Since we got Kiwis 50 injections repeated at 6 weeks for $2000 info, I've been doing a lot of mental calcs about it.
> 
> I'll need somewhere around 250 injections to cover my thinning areas, assuming 6mm spacing. Repeated at 6 weeks that's 10 grand for one treatment. Add a repeat at say 6 months, that's 20 grand, which is about the cost of a couple of decent fue sessions with a good doctor.
> 
> So if that treatment can grow more hair than a top class fue session, it's well worth it, given no scarring and no donor depletion. I'm getting 1000 injections total for 20k. If it grows on average 8 new terminal hairs per injection, that's approx equivalent to 4000 fus by fue. 4000 fus for 20k would be $5 a graft which in my admittedly not very knowledgeable understanding of HTs seems about average.
> 
> Now... Histogen said on average HSC produced 25 new hairs per injection. Most would be terminal. So on that logic, HSC should easily outperform FUE on a cost basis if you get an average result. With the added bonus that you deplete no donor and you don't look like you got mangled if it doesn't work. The main advantage of FUE is that the hairs will be permanent while we don't yet know how long HSC will last.
> 
> It's looking promising, guys. Not a cure, but potentially a new gold standard for thinning areas.


 What norwood are you that you would need 250 injections? 20 grand is alot of dam money. I hope a couple of injections would do the job for a nw 3 like myself.

----------


## Pate

I'd probably call myself a NW5 headed for NW6. But everywhere except my temples still has some terminal hair growing, plus lots of intermediate miniaturised hairs.

So I have a large area that needs treating, hence the 250 injections.

A NW3 would probably need about 80 to cover back to NW2, maybe less. But we don't know if or how well HSC will work on the slick bald scalp normal for NW3s.

And yeah, 20 grand is a lot of damn money. But unfortunately it's gonna cost me a packet no matter what I do. It's worth it IMO, if it gets me back even to NW3.

----------


## hellouser

> And yeah, 20 grand is a lot of damn money. But unfortunately it's gonna cost me a packet no matter what I do. It's worth it IMO, if it gets me back even to NW3.


 The skys the limit for the price to regain any or all the hair I've lost since I've started going through this wretched experience.

I don't put a price on my health and ultimately satisfaction with life. Theres no such thing as a monetary value for that and I'll pay whatevers necessary to be happy again. As a tinnitus sufferer on top, I'd trade everything to know what silence sounds like.

----------


## rdawg

You might not necessarily need to cover every nook and cranny, it's possible you just need enough for a general area(say,1-2 cm per injection or whatever) 

that's just a guess or whatever, you might not need to inject every few mm to get the full affect.

----------


## Pate

Well Histogen said they saw effects within 2mm of the injection site which is a diameter of 4mm. But if there are multiple injections they might overlap and spread out more.

We don't know for sure so it's more speculation. But the available evidence suggests it's a pretty localised effect so many injections needed.

But as hellouser said, I don't really care. I'm not married, got no kids or mortgage and no debt, and having my hair back would make me happier than a house or a car or a world trip. I'll save up for it.

The other thing that would help bring the price down is if Aderans and/or Replicel get a product out. There will be a price war for the baldie dollar.

----------


## 5000

> 2000 USD every two years is pretty expensive. 
> 
> concerning the number of injections and dose - nobody can tell, because phase II/III is supposed to check that.
> 
> Something like HSC, that bald people in the whole world will be depended on, so they can still hold their hair, shouldn't be expensive. because every bald guy will get the treatment every two years, an income from every bald guy in the world every two years will make histogen rich enough...
> that 2000 price will make histogen bankrupt.. lol
> 
> anyway.. if that's the max amount of price that would be, it will drop eventually.


 brother where does it says you need the injections every 2 years? maybe 100 injections would be sufficient enough for 5 years or even more than that? who knows yet?

----------


## Jasari

> Since we got Kiwis 50 injections repeated at 6 weeks for $2000 info, I've been doing a lot of mental calcs about it.
> 
> I'll need somewhere around 250 injections to cover my thinning areas, assuming 6mm spacing. Repeated at 6 weeks that's 10 grand for one treatment. Add a repeat at say 6 months, that's 20 grand, which is about the cost of a couple of decent fue sessions with a good doctor.
> 
> So if that treatment can grow more hair than a top class fue session, it's well worth it, given no scarring and no donor depletion. I'm getting 1000 injections total for 20k. If it grows on average 8 new terminal hairs per injection, that's approx equivalent to 4000 fus by fue. 4000 fus for 20k would be $5 a graft which in my admittedly not very knowledgeable understanding of HTs seems about average.
> 
> Now... Histogen said on average HSC produced 25 new hairs per injection. Most would be terminal. So on that logic, HSC should easily outperform FUE on a cost basis if you get an average result. With the added bonus that you deplete no donor and you don't look like you got mangled if it doesn't work. The main advantage of FUE is that the hairs will be permanent while we don't yet know how long HSC will last.
> 
> It's looking promising, guys. Not a cure, but potentially a new gold standard for thinning areas.


 I couldn't imagine it would cost that much. Those estimates are incredibly over priced and 5/10/15/20x more expensive than an FUE transplant because your not factoring in the periodic injections every 2 years. 

Essentially under than pricing structure it would be the equivalent of a 4000 graft FUE procedure every two years. They wouldn't make money because people would just get the permanent FUE results.

----------


## koolx

when will histogen be finally released to the public? i'm desperate!!

----------


## rdawg

> when will histogen be finally released to the public? i'm desperate!!


 barring a massive unforseen failure(which I dont expect) expect it in 2015 in asia(Phase IIB Jan 2013-dec 2013, Phase III Jan 2014-Dec 2014, few months for approval means histogen will be ready for summer/christmas 2015). 
2016-2017 North america.

----------


## Pate

> I couldn't imagine it would cost that much. Those estimates are incredibly over priced and 5/10/15/20x more expensive than an FUE transplant because your not factoring in the periodic injections every 2 years.


 Who said anything about injections every 2 years? Histogen certainly never did. All we know is that the results probably last AT LEAST two years. It could be five, it could be ten. It could be permanent if you're taking some sort of anti-androgen.




> Essentially under than pricing structure it would be the equivalent of a 4000 graft FUE procedure every two years. They wouldn't make money because people would just get the permanent FUE results.


 Unless they don't have enough donor for permanent FUE results. Which most people don't, at least if they want acceptable density. 

Also, my post clearly said the 4,000 graft FUE was assuming only EIGHT new hairs per injection. Histogen said it's more like 25, which is three times higher. So it's currently like a 12,000 graft FUE - most people don't even have that much donor!

If they increase the effectiveness of the formula and as the prices come down with better production techniques (economy of scale) and competition from Aderans/Replicel... it'll just get better.

It's still too early to say exactly what the effects will be. If they really do last only two years then I agree with you, they will have to do much better than eight hairs per injection to compete.

----------


## koolx

> barring a massive unforseen failure(which I dont expect) expect it in 2015 in asia(Phase IIB Jan 2013-dec 2013, Phase III Jan 2014-Dec 2014, few months for approval means histogen will be ready for summer/christmas 2015). 
> 2016-2017 North america.


 hi rdawg.. thank u for the reply. do u think when its 1st released in asia in 2015 that i can somehow get my hands on it? i dont want to wait 3-4 years when its released in USA. 

also, how effective is it in regrowing hair in the front scalp?

----------


## Pate

> hi rdawg.. thank u for the reply. do u think when its 1st released in asia in 2015 that i can somehow get my hands on it? i dont want to wait 3-4 years when its released in USA. 
> 
> also, how effective is it in regrowing hair in the front scalp?


 Sure you can get your hands on it. Fly to Asia and get it.  :Smile: 

It's effective at regrowing hair in the frontal scalp according to Histogen's latest release. It's also effective at the hairline - almost as effective as in the crown.

What's not confirmed is whether it grows hair on slick bald scalp. Ziering said they had tested it on one patient, but that he hadn't seen the results yet. He would know the results by now, but it hasn't been made public.

----------


## koolx

> Sure you can get your hands on it. Fly to Asia and get it. 
> 
> It's effective at regrowing hair in the frontal scalp according to Histogen's latest release. It's also effective at the hairline - almost as effective as in the crown.
> 
> What's not confirmed is whether it grows hair on slick bald scalp. Ziering said they had tested it on one patient, but that he hadn't seen the results yet. He would know the results by now, but it hasn't been made public.


 hey pate.. appreciate the reply.. can you tell me how effective is it in regrowing the front scalp? can you give a percentage of regrowth?

----------


## Pate

Here is what Histogen said about it:

_Importantly, the efficacy of HSC is not limited by hair loss region. The Phase I/II clinical trial has shown noted new hair growth in subjects treated in all regions of the scalp, including temporal recession, mid-scalp and vertex. Subjects receiving HSC in the temporal recession, which is known to be more difficult to treat than other areas of hair loss, saw marked improvement in terminal hair count, with a mean increase of 22.6% at 12 weeks and 25.2% at the 24 week time point._

The best result Histogen had across the Phase I/II trial was 80% increase in terminal hair at 3 months. Average was 20%. The average result at 12 months should be around 50%, going by the results of the pilot study.

Check the presentation out for yourself:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/111831133/...linical-Update

----------


## HARIRI

Nice Post Pate. I really have big hopes in Histogen. It would be the optimum cure for crown area so we wont have any donor problem from it as we mostly use donor hair for hairlines.

----------


## clandestine

So exciting. Cautious optimism in effect.

----------


## Conpecia

> So exciting. Cautious optimism in effect.


 This. I think those of us who are NW3 or less should really press to maintain what we have for the next 3 years. Even if it doesn't grow hair on slick bald areas, keeping what we have now will free up donor hair for our slick regions. 

Really wishing I was a diffuse guy right now  :Mad:

----------


## UK_

> This. I think those of us who are NW3 or less should really press to maintain what we have for the next 3 years. Even if it doesn't grow hair on slick bald areas, keeping what we have now will free up donor hair for our slick regions. 
> 
> Really wishing I was a diffuse guy right now


 Dont know how on earth those of us who cant take Fin are supposed to do that.

Perhaps... the Hair Max Laser comb? LOL :Big Grin:

----------


## ammin

Consider the Acell PRP UK from a reputable clinic

----------


## rdawg

> Here is what Histogen said about it:
> 
> _Importantly, the efficacy of HSC is not limited by hair loss region. The Phase I/II clinical trial has shown noted new hair growth in subjects treated in all regions of the scalp, including temporal recession, mid-scalp and vertex. Subjects receiving HSC in the temporal recession, which is known to be more difficult to treat than other areas of hair loss, saw marked improvement in terminal hair count, with a mean increase of 22.6% at 12 weeks and 25.2% at the 24 week time point._
> 
> The best result Histogen had across the Phase I/II trial was 80% increase in terminal hair at 3 months. Average was 20%. The average result at 12 months should be around 50%, going by the results of the pilot study.
> 
> Check the presentation out for yourself:
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/111831133/...linical-Update


 Should also be noted that in the next year they will attempt to get even more efficacy. They know it works to an extent, now they'll attempt to inject a larger area(I believe) with more frequent injections(currently I think it's once, then again after 6 weeks) 

Even if the pictures were slightly underwhelming, they did show maintainence and some minor growth, that one girl grew back most of her vellus hairs on her hairline(Ziering mentioned almost all vellus hairs return to terminal btw, something Fin does not guarentee.)

----------


## rdawg

> hi rdawg.. thank u for the reply. do u think when its 1st released in asia in 2015 that i can somehow get my hands on it? i dont want to wait 3-4 years when its released in USA. 
> 
> also, how effective is it in regrowing hair in the front scalp?


 Well I think there's a possibility it gets streamlined so to speak. Ziering kind of mentioned this as well.

basically if they have great results and it gets approved in asia, The FDA may skip over a phase in order to get the product to market if they like the tests they already did in asia. So basically it could take only an extra year of localised testing.

I'm wondering why it's not already being FDA tested here now though? or is it? maybe someone can clarify that as it shouldn't take 5 years vs 2-3 for the FDA to approve a product that is seemingly safe and working.

Guys it's about 2 and a half years from release in asia, not far at all if you live around there or are willing to travel.

----------


## Pate

> I'm wondering why it's not already being FDA tested here now though? or is it?


 It is, sort of. The trials are being done overseas but they FDA-compliant. So they can use the results of these studies to get FDA approval.

I'm guessing the reasons they do the trials overseas are partly due to much cheaper costs and partly because there is less red tape and paperwork in getting the trials approved.

----------


## FearTheLoss

Who is down to rent a ship and sail to Asia in 3 years? We can definitely get enough people on this forum to chip in and sail together! TO ASIA!!!!

----------


## Conpecia

> Dont know how on earth those of us who cant take Fin are supposed to do that.
> 
> Perhaps... the Hair Max Laser comb? LOL


 Which sides do you have with fin?

----------


## rdawg

> It is, sort of. The trials are being done overseas but they FDA-compliant. So they can use the results of these studies to get FDA approval.
> 
> I'm guessing the reasons they do the trials overseas are partly due to much cheaper costs and partly because there is less red tape and paperwork in getting the trials approved.


 Interesting, I know ziering is in the states, like california area. Then the main doctor is doing it somewhere in asia.

so isnt Ziering doing tests through the FDA in North America?

----------


## hellouser

> Dont know how on earth those of us who cant take Fin are supposed to do that.
> 
> Perhaps... the Hair Max Laser comb? LOL


 RU58841 will do just as well as Finasteride without making your dick go as soft as it would with Rosie O'Donnell near it.

----------


## kanyon

I would want a fluent English speaker performing the operation on me.

----------


## UK Boy

> I would want a fluent English speaker performing the operation on me.


 I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything but I really think this is a pretty stupid, narrow-minded and pointless comment.

Just because the treatment is going to be offered in Asia it does not mean that the staff will not be able to speak English. Histogen are an American based company with Americans in charge, I'm sure they're going to employ staff with a goood grasp of the English language to run their Asian clinic and that the clinic will fully live up to American standards. I'm sure the clinic will also be in a cosmopolitan area, most likely a city and not some rural village.

I went to a private bording school and therefore know there are many highly intelligent people from Asian backgrounds who all speak fleunt English - a lot of them went into medical careers.

The procedure is far from an "operation" hence why it is such an exciting and appealing option to so many of us, do you even know what Histogen is? or are you just trolling the board making stupid coomments? To suggest that medical staff in Asia are to be doubted in their competence to administer a simple series of injections is rather insulting don't you think?

By all accounts Gho and his staff are not fleunt in English but would you make the same comment about them?

It was recently reported that two thirds of the people currently living in London are non uk nationals and hence may well not speak English fleuntly but would you have made the same comment if the treatment was going to be offered in the UK first?

I do understand your point, I would not want to deal with a person speaking another language during a medical procedure but I think that it is wrong to assume that this would be the case just because the treatment will be offered in Asia.

My issue is that I would happily take the trip to Asia and have the procedure but I do not know of many employers that would be happy for me to take 6+ weeks off to stay out there for the repeat set of injections. I also would not fancy going out once and then returning home and then having to go all the way again less than 2 months later. I think this will be the main issue for Westerners wanting this before it comes over here.

----------


## HARIRI

Great reply UK Boy, that's the problem with some members in the forum. Histogen is a product ready to be used on you via injections. I believe our main goal is to get some hair and not chit chat. Racism gets nasty over here as they always look at Asians in a lower gaze where they might over take the west with their developments one day.

----------


## koolx

> Well I think there's a possibility it gets streamlined so to speak. Ziering kind of mentioned this as well.


 i saw a youtube video with someone commenting that histogen isnt that effective at all. he said the numbers look good on paper. but the pics show something quite different. i dont mean to be a bad news breaker. heres the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khVm4wSpzjo

----------


## FearTheLoss

> RU58841 will do just as well as Finasteride without making your dick go as soft as it would with Rosie O'Donnell near it.


 Can you tell me more about RU? Why aren't more people talking about it/ using it then? And why doesn't the doctor prescribe it?

----------


## rdawg

> i saw a youtube video with someone commenting that histogen isnt that effective at all. he said the numbers look good on paper. but the pics show something quite different. i dont mean to be a bad news breaker. heres the link:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khVm4wSpzjo


 A: this is two months old.
B: there were alot of skeptics, Histogen only had 15 minutes to present and a few minutes for questions.
C: The two photos/people he showed had clear growth, those were the best ones, you'd have to be blind not to see at least slight growth there.

Yes some of the photos were underwhelming, but they were at the early stages anyway, many were only at the 4-6 month range after receiving the HSC.

fine to be a skeptic, he's not even being that negative, just saying wait for better pictures, so its not bad news at all.

----------


## kanyon

> Great reply UK Boy, that's the problem with some members in the forum. Histogen is a product ready to be used on you via injections. I believe our main goal is to get some hair and not chit chat. Racism gets nasty over here as they always look at Asians in a lower gaze where they might over take the west with their developments one day.


 I didn't mean to sound racist. I'm far from racist.

I could get 6 weeks off work for repeat injections. Is the period in between dehabilitating? If not, I would use the time to travel around  :Smile: 

When we walk about Asia, are we saying Japan, Singapore, Thailand? Or do you think it will be released everywhere? Do Europe and Australia rely on FDA?

----------


## HARIRI

Kanyon, I think most likely it will be released in Singapore. I'm sure Rdawg may have some information about it as he closely following it.  :Smile:

----------


## Pate

> Interesting, I know ziering is in the states, like california area. Then the main doctor is doing it somewhere in asia.
> 
> so isnt Ziering doing tests through the FDA in North America?


 Ziering's trial isn't part of the Phase II, it's a "physician-sponsored trial" to support Histogen's IND application to the FDA. So it's like a pre-trial so they can get FDA approval down the track.

The Phase I trial was in Honduras and the Phase II is in the Philippines. Like I said these are done to full FDA specifications so they can be submitted to the FDA.

----------


## Pate

> Can you tell me more about RU? Why aren't more people talking about it/ using it then? And why doesn't the doctor prescribe it?


 Because the company that owns the patent is sitting on it and not pursuing it, so nobody can get it legally as a hair loss product.

Nobody knows 100% for sure whey they are sitting on it, but it's probably some or all of:

1. Very powerful topical anti-androgen with the potential for systemic absorption which may lead to pregnancy defects (a pregnant woman running her hand through your hair would be a potential risk)

2. It's unstable, breaks down in a few weeks at room temperature, so it's not good for a hair loss product (you can't sit it on the shelves)

3. It's more effective than fin but still won't grow significant amounts of new hair (ie it's not a hair loss cure, more preventative treatment like fin)

4. The combination of the three points above mean they can't find an investor willing to spend the half-billion dollars or so it would cost to get it tested and approved

5. Because of that it's been so long since the patents were taken out that the patents will soon expire, so the financial return on investment isn't worth it.

Histogen is actually making this worse too. HM in general is a big risk to any hair loss drugs. They cost so much money to develop that nobody wants to fork out the money if HM is going to render it obsolete.

So I don't think you will ever see RU available in stores. Once the patents expire it's all over, nobody will develop RU when they can't even get their R&D costs back.

On the plus side, if Histogen does work, those of us using RU should theoretically be able to use it to protect our new Histogen hair from DHT.

----------


## koolx

> A: this is two months old.


 so?




> B: there were alot of skeptics, Histogen only had 15 minutes to present and a few minutes for questions.


 so?




> C: The two photos/people he showed had clear growth, those were the best ones, you'd have to be blind not to see at least slight growth there.


 not really. the growth was noticeable but not impressive.




> Yes some of the photos were underwhelming, but they were at the early stages anyway, many were only at the 4-6 month range after receiving the HSC.


 stop fooling yourself.. saying that theyre in the 'early stages' is just an excuse.. the company had enough time to prepare this med. 




> fine to be a skeptic, he's not even being that negative, just saying wait for better pictures, so its not bad news at all.


 no, hes saying dont get your hopes up.

----------


## hellouser

> stop fooling yourself.. saying that theyre in the 'early stages' is just an excuse.. the company had enough time to prepare this med.


 Sounds like youre well informed about the preparation of the med. Can you tell us why it wouldnt need to take as long as it did?

----------


## koolx

> Sounds like youre well informed about the preparation of the med. Can you tell us why it wouldnt need to take as long as it did?


 sounds like ur the spokesperson for the company. can you tell us why your company fails to provide a better product?

----------


## hellouser

> sounds like ur the spokesperson for the company. can you tell us why your company fails to provide a better product?


 Dodging the question tells me and everyone else on this forum you know f*ck all about the meds and why it would take any length of time that it could and did.

Should have manned up and admitted that you simply don't know rather than trying  to post your disappointment as a fact only to help your own OPINIONS. Stick to being objective and realistic rather than another useless pessimist on the forum, nobody needs your negativity as it adds NOTHING to the forum.

If youre going to be a pissy crybaby, at least state what your intentions are.

----------


## rdawg

> so?
> so?
> 
> not really. the growth was noticeable but not impressive.
> 
> stop fooling yourself.. saying that theyre in the 'early stages' is just an excuse.. the company had enough time to prepare this med. 
> 
> 
> no, hes saying dont get your hopes up.


 lmao, how is noticeable growth NOT impressive? And this is only after a few months.

early stages goes for any medication AND hair transplantation, everything has to go through hair cycles, which can take time. Why are you saying that a medication can skip over hair cycles? This is also without mentioning that it takes time to change the system and for the hair follicles to accept the medication etc.(this goes for anything, I.e Finasteride which can take up to a year to affect some people).

Ok if he's saying dont get you're hopes up, nowhere does he say it doesn't work.

Quit looking for something to be negative about. They've shown 'noticeable but unimpressive' growth, which is growth, period. So I dont see the problem you have here.

EDIT: In fairness noone has claimed this to be the cure, but wait for the results this year as many will be in their second year of results and many will have had more frequent injections(as well as a larger area) in an attempt to get even more growth. I think most if not all of these early patients only had a small area injected.

----------


## mjolnir

> sounds like ur the spokesperson for the company. can you tell us why your company fails to provide a better product?


 Because regenerating human organs is hard? We can't regrow eyes, hearts, teeth, etc., so why is it surprising that companies might have a little trouble regrowing hair?

----------


## koolx

> Dodging the question tells me and everyone else on this forum you know f*ck all about the meds and why it would take any length of time that it could and did.
> 
> Should have manned up and admitted that you simply don't know rather than trying  to post your disappointment as a fact only to help your own OPINIONS. Stick to being objective and realistic rather than another useless pessimist on the forum, nobody needs your negativity as it adds NOTHING to the forum.
> 
> If youre going to be a pissy crybaby, at least state what your intentions are.


 fearing answering my question tells all of us here that u know d'ick about the med the company is paying u to rep. stick to ur day job since u dont cut it as a real man with the testicles to tell the truth, but just a little internet p'ssy. nobody needs ur lies as it does nothing but inflate false hope. 

u shouldve been a real man with balls and not bi-male about telling the truth about this product u know SH'IT about so ur company can fool people into buying it. 

if ur gonna be an unmanly mule for the company, at least admit it so ur parents can know they didnt give birth to a girl.




> lmao, how is noticeable growth NOT impressive? And this is only after a few months.


 cuz its not enough.




> early stages goes for any medication AND hair transplantation, everything has to go through hair cycles, which can take time. Finasteride which can take up to a year to affect some people).


 then why didnt they provided a model showing the full length of the hair cycle instead of an "incomplete" one? 




> Ok if he's saying dont get you're hopes up, nowhere does he say it doesn't work.


 i never said nor did i say he said that it doesnt work. it just doesnt work as well as expected. 




> Quit looking for something to be negative about. They've shown 'noticeable but unimpressive' growth, which is growth, period. So I dont see the problem you have here.


 i'm not.. i'm stating an observation. if my observation is negative to u, then ur the one spinning it negatively. the growth isnt impressive. if u dont see that prob, then ur only fooling urself. 




> EDIT: In fairness noone has claimed this to be the cure, but wait for the results this year as many will be in their second year of results and many will have had more frequent injections(as well as a larger area) in an attempt to get even more growth.


 i agree but disagree too. ur right, no one claimed this to be a cure. but its been spinned like it is. this is why my expectations shot thru the roof until i saw the youtube and the pics. 




> I think most if not all of these early patients only had a small area injected.


 u *think*? how do u know this? i *think* the world will end tmrw.. will it?




> Because regenerating human organs is hard? We can't regrow eyes, hearts, teeth, etc., so why is it surprising that companies might have a little trouble regrowing hair?


 not fully.. but currently thru stem cells we can regrow parts of limbs, parts of eyes, and parts of organs in both animal and human models. the tech is limited now. but in the future its expected that the tech will make this transition to full organs.

----------


## Desmond84

> so?
> 
> 
> 
> so?
> 
> 
> 
> not really. the growth was noticeable but not impressive.
> ...


 Hey guys, 

First of all, merry xmas to all my balding brothers  :Smile:  wishing u all the very best.

Secondly, *koolx* I've attached a copy of the trial in the link below for you to look at. I think your confusion comes from the fact that you're not aware of the number of injections they used. This was merely a safety trial (Phase I/IIa). So they only injected each patient with 8 injections at 3mm apart. Now, in order for you to notice significant cosmetic growth on the top of your scalp, they need to inject 200-300 injections! 

Now I promise you they will eventually reach a point where they will inject the whole scalp (Phase IIb) and by the look of things, the results will be impressive. Just be patient and don't attack anyone on the forum! We're all here to help each other get through this curse  :Smile: 

Peach brother

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1

----------


## Kiwi

Hey koolx...

... This is where I tell you to f*** off and die like all the other sceptics and whiney little bitches.

As punishment I hope that when Histogen does come out and does work that people like you wont be able to afford it.

----------


## Kiwi

And to everybody else.... Merry Xmas!!!

May Histogen / Aderans blow our socks of in 2013!!!

Ciao,
Kiwi

----------


## Pate

> Hey guys, 
> 
> First of all, merry xmas to all my balding brothers  wishing u all the very best.
> 
> Secondly, *koolx* I've attached a copy of the trial in the link below for you to look at. I think your confusion comes from the fact that you're not aware of the number of injections they used. This was merely a safety trial (Phase I/IIa). So they only injected each patient with 8 injections at 3mm apart. Now, in order for you to notice significant cosmetic growth on the top of your scalp, they need to inject 200-300 injections! 
> 
> Now I promise you they will eventually reach a point where they will inject the whole scalp (Phase IIb) and by the look of things, the results will be impressive. Just be patient and don't attack anyone on the forum! We're all here to help each other get through this curse 
> 
> Peach brother
> ...


 Des, the 8 injections were for the Phase IIb trial, the macroscopic photos were from Ziering's IND trial and there were 20 of them.

Still would only cover less than a square inch. 

The interesting thing is that for four of the patients, they expanded the trial to 40 injections. So the total treatment was 120 injections like this:

Baseline: 20 injections
6 weeks: 20 injections
12 weeks: 40 injections
18 weeks: 40 injections

Results were photographed at between 12 and 24 weeks. So basically in none of those photos would you expect to see good results because the HSC just hasn't had enough time to reach its full effect. It takes 12 months for that.

I've said this til I've sounded like a broken record, but there are so many trolling f-wits determined to depressed people already struggling with their hair loss by destroying whatever hope they have left, so I'll say it again.

*Until we see the results at 12 months, like a HT, we won't know what the full cosmetic effect will be.*

On the other hand, if they show us results at 12 months that don't look any better than what they've already shown us, then yes, we may have a problem... That's when I'll listen to the nay-saying f-wits, not before.

----------


## Desmond84

Oh really! Fair enough  :Smile:  Can't wait for the results man! I have a feeling it'll be good...

You know what's really strange? Our generation has only Aderans, Replicel & Histogen left in the game. If these guys don't make it then we're pretty much screwed! Everything else is at least 10 years away  :Frown: 

So I don't know why so many ppl are rooting for these treatments to fail!!!

Talk about giving up and taking the world down with you!

----------


## Artista

Its called 'pessimism' Desmond, due to long term internal sadness and disappointments-realistically and unrealistically

----------


## Scientalk56

> Des, the 8 injections were for the Phase IIb trial, the macroscopic photos were from Ziering's IND trial and there were 20 of them.
> 
> Still would only cover less than a square inch. 
> 
> The interesting thing is that for four of the patients, they expanded the trial to 40 injections. So the total treatment was 120 injections like this:
> 
> Baseline: 20 injections
> 6 weeks: 20 injections
> 12 weeks: 40 injections
> ...


 about the photos thing,

Both Histogen and Zerinig showed us photos. 
SID - they showed the "before after" photos from *Ziering* clinical trials - 3 months after injection in female patients in USA.

ISHRS - my questino is - what photos did they show us? from histogen or ziering trial?

Are there any photos from the trial in philippines???

----------


## neversaynever

> about the photos thing,
> 
> Both Histogen and Zerinig showed us photos. 
> SID - they showed the "before after" photos from *Ziering* clinical trials - 3 months after injection in female patients in USA.
> 
> ISHRS - my questino is - what photos did they show us? from histogen or ziering trial?
> 
> Are there any photos from the trial in philippines???


 someone should take the time to post all the photos histogen have made available. I have a feeling I've missed some.

----------


## Desmond84

> Its called 'pessimism' Desmond, due to long term internal sadness and disappointments-realistically and unrealistically


 Uhhh you know as cheesy as Rocky might be, there's scene near the end that really changed my life. Here it is if you wanna watch it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dKm...endscreen&NR=1

Life's not all sunshine and rainbows! its a mean and nasty place and if you let it, it will kick you down and keep you there permanently!

It ain't about how hard you can hit, but how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward!

Believe it or not I used to be really depressed about my hairloss! But then one day I just decided to do everything I can to make things better and believe it or not I'm much happier now than I used to be!

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's no point being a pessimist, you just waste your life away being angry and pissed off; HOPE alone gets me through everyday...maybe it'll help you get through it as well...

Just saying...hope that helps  :Wink:

----------


## Artista

I feel the same as you Des' ..There is no point in allowing disappointments to keep you down.

----------


## neversaynever

> Uhhh you know as cheesy as Rocky might be, there's scene near the end that really changed my life. Here it is if you wanna watch it:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dKm...endscreen&NR=1
> 
> Life's not all sunshine and rainbows! its a mean and nasty place and if you let it, it will kick you down and keep you there permanently!
> 
> It ain't about how hard you can hit, but how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward!
> 
> Believe it or not I used to be really depressed about my hairloss! But then one day I just decided to do everything I can to make things better and believe it or not I'm much happier now than I used to be!
> ...


 Id say there are alot of depressed guys on the forum, and they dont even know it. Maybe I am too, but I have things in my life that help me get perspective about hairloss. 

Keep the positive vibes up, its needed.

Im very hopeful over histogen, but slightly suspicious from the photos I've seen. Maybe ive not seen some photos you guys have...

----------


## Desmond84

> Im very hopeful over histogen, but slightly suspicious from the photos I've seen. Maybe ive not seen some photos you guys have...


 Here's a few  :Smile:  They look very promising 

http://imgur.com/a/62ISJ

http://imgur.com/a/7GI4A

http://imgur.com/a/7BVb9

----------


## neversaynever

> Here's a few  They look very promising 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/62ISJ
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/7GI4A
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/7BVb9


 There is some promise there. But two things strike me:

1. The difference in lighting
2. Both females

The huge positive is that only small areas were treated. So all we can do is stay positive and hope that they move into phase 3 and will release early in Asia.

----------


## Scientalk56

http://imgur.com/a/7BVb9#8mjvQ 
the growth in this photo is incredible. and by the way this is a black man in his 50's if i'm not mistaken. I think it will have better results in younger men, with NW1-3.. especially with more injections and the potential to grow hair in temples. 
i don't know why people here are disappointed.

i just wish that the next phase will have more participants. it should have *300* men. not *50*. this number is a joke.

----------


## Scientalk56

another thing that concerns me:




> Fen-phen made it to Phase III and many people lost their lives (or shortened them).  *The Histogen trial pool was also very limited to a small sample size and only two year follow up.  Most oncology epigenetic related dynamical processes take five or more years to show up.*


 You can find this comment here:
http://forum.hishairclinic.com/topic...e#.UNiUaG9J6dw

I also asked a dermatologist about histogen, and he said to me that a trial like that have to contain more participants. (300 people at least!!)

Histogen did phase 1 with 20 people and phase 2 with 50 people..
:S

----------


## 2020

this thread is such a rollercoaster between soon having a cure and to everything is hopeless. As far I'm concerned, Aderans and Replicel are finished. Don't expect anything from them. They don't have anything now nor will they have anything in the future.
desmond was right when he said that those were our only hopes in the next 10+ years. Take away those two, and you're only left with Histogen who has shown poor results at this point however you want to spin it.  They had more than 5 years to figure out this crap and  up to this point they got nothing.

also, to the person who thinks that "regrowing" follicles is as difficult as regrowing heart then wow he doesn't know jack and judging how Aderans and Replicel describe their "science" they don't know it either. Follicles "regenerate" with each cycle automatically. Anagen -> Miniaturized follicle -> Anagen again. The problem is with activation and missing growth factors required to grow visible/normal hair.

----------


## Benzzro

> this thread is such a rollercoaster between soon having a cure and to everything is hopeless. As far I'm concerned, Aderans and Replicel are finished. Don't expect anything from them. They don't have anything now nor will they have anything in the future.
> desmond was right when he said that those were our only hopes in the next 10+ years. Take away those two, and you're only left with Histogen who has shown poor results at this point however you want to spin it.  They had more than 5 years to figure out this crap and  up to this point they got nothing.
> 
> also, to the person who thinks that "regrowing" follicles is as difficult as regrowing heart then wow he doesn't know jack and judging how Aderans and Replicel describe their "science" they don't know it either. Follicles "regenerate" with each cycle automatically. Anagen -> Miniaturized follicle -> Anagen again. The problem is with activation and missing growth factors required to grow visible/normal hair.


 Weren't you the guy that said Replicel was the future? And everything else was useless?

----------


## john2399

> this thread is such a rollercoaster between soon having a cure and to everything is hopeless. As far I'm concerned, Aderans and Replicel are finished. Don't expect anything from them. They don't have anything now nor will they have anything in the future.
> desmond was right when he said that those were our only hopes in the next 10+ years. Take away those two, and you're only left with Histogen who has shown poor results at this point however you want to spin it.  They had more than 5 years to figure out this crap and  up to this point they got nothing.
> 
> also, to the person who thinks that "regrowing" follicles is as difficult as regrowing heart then wow he doesn't know jack and judging how Aderans and Replicel describe their "science" they don't know it either. Follicles "regenerate" with each cycle automatically. Anagen -> Miniaturized follicle -> Anagen again. The problem is with activation and missing growth factors required to grow visible/normal hair.


 what the hell 2020, i thought you were pro histogen.

----------


## rdawg

> this thread is such a rollercoaster between soon having a cure and to everything is hopeless. As far I'm concerned, Aderans and Replicel are finished. Don't expect anything from them. They don't have anything now nor will they have anything in the future.
> desmond was right when he said that those were our only hopes in the next 10+ years. Take away those two, and you're only left with Histogen who has shown poor results at this point however you want to spin it.  They had more than 5 years to figure out this crap and  up to this point they got nothing.
> 
> also, to the person who thinks that "regrowing" follicles is as difficult as regrowing heart then wow he doesn't know jack and judging how Aderans and Replicel describe their "science" they don't know it either. Follicles "regenerate" with each cycle automatically. Anagen -> Miniaturized follicle -> Anagen again. The problem is with activation and missing growth factors required to grow visible/normal hair.


 This is an extremely baseless comment.

I dont know how you go from being a normal poster to an extreme pessimist for no reason? You are all over the place with your theories and beliefs.

How has histogen's results indicated that they have nothing? so far it's indicated quite the opposite.

Just give them some time before you start shouting the apoloclypse. Hell we'll have another update within a few months.

The way I see it and this isn't trying to be super optimistic. Histogen injected a small area, got solid results(as in somewhat noticeable, the pictures definitely showed at least minor growth, IMO a couple patients had very noticeable growth) and will now inject MORE people, with more injections in a bigger area more frequently, in an attempt to get even better results.

The pictures do need some work and they need to fix that problem(lighting and such), but there's only been an indication of a great product so far, nothing to the contrary IMO.

----------


## rdawg

> another thing that concerns me:
> 
> 
> 
> You can find this comment here:
> http://forum.hishairclinic.com/topic...e#.UNiUaG9J6dw
> 
> I also asked a dermatologist about histogen, and he said to me that a trial like that have to contain more participants. (300 people at least!!)
> 
> ...


 Fair enough to have the concern, but nothing indicates histogen is dangerous at all, so I wouldn't really go into it thinking it's harmful as of right now.

Plus there's about 2-3 years of tests left, we'll know by then. That fen product had the FDA split due to them wanting hypertension warnings on that drug.

no idea how many will be in the next trial(or specifically when Phase IIb will start)

phase III is usually the big trial though with hundreds of people testing it.

----------


## koolx

> Secondly, *koolx* I've attached a copy of the trial in the link below for you to look at. I think your confusion comes from the fact that you're not aware of the number of injections they used. This was merely a safety trial (Phase I/IIa). So they only injected each patient with 8 injections at 3mm apart. Now, in order for you to notice significant cosmetic growth on the top of your scalp, they need to inject 200-300 injections! 
> 
> Now I promise you they will eventually reach a point where they will inject the whole scalp (Phase IIb) and by the look of things, the results will be impressive. Just be patient and don't attack anyone on the forum! We're all here to help each other get through this curse 
> 
> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1


 thank u desmond.. i'll be reading that link soon. and i appreciate the follow up. hopefully this is encouraging news. and i only attack those who attack me.. thats my M.O.




> ... This is where I tell you to f*** off and die like all the other sceptics and whiney little bitches.
> 
> As punishment I hope that when Histogen does come out and does work that people like you wont be able to afford it.


 and this is the part where i tell u that u get NO P'USSY.. thats why u sound so sexually frustrated cuz women see ur bald spot and run. and as a result u turn to men. thats why u sound so defensive like an old fa'g.

as punishment i hope when histogen comes out that it doesnt work on u cuz ur balding area is TOO large for it to help u. 

ur out of luck rupaul.

----------


## bananana

ffs!

this sounds like a kindergarten!
How old are you all? Stop with insults will you? 

Jesus, there cant be a single page on a single thread here without balding guys bashing on other balding guys. Pathetic.

We're in this all together. Be productive for a change.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> ffs!
> 
> this sounds like a kindergarten!
> How old are you all? Stop with insults will you? 
> 
> Jesus, there cant be a single page on a single thread here without balding guys bashing on other balding guys. Pathetic.
> 
> We're in this all together. Be productive for a change.


 +1 The insults and comments are childish and ridiculous!

----------


## Dan26

It's *all about growth factors* my balding brothers. If Histogen was going HAM with their injections (aka higher dose/frequency) AND using an AA, believe me results would be legit. Growth factors are *thee* big pieces of the puzzle.

----------


## clandestine

It's fine; let's them vent amongst themselves.

----------


## koolx

> It's *all about growth factors* my balding brothers. If Histogen was going HAM with their injections (aka higher dose/frequency) AND using an AA, believe me results would be legit. Growth factors are *thee* big pieces of the puzzle.


 but havent other studies used growth factors to stimulate hair growth?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

You guys need to get off these forums, and live your life.

No amount of over analysing bullshit is going to a) give answers and b) speed of the process.

Whereas, for all of you, your life is ticking away as we speak.

Say you get a full head of hair at 30 plus, if you haven't got a career you are ****ed anyway.

Life is too short.

----------


## koolx

> Say you get a full head of hair at 30 plus, if you haven't got a career you are ****ed anyway.
> 
> Life is too short.


 i agree with that.. but there are many guys out there who find confidence with their hair. and they miss the opportunities associated with what their hair used to give them when they had it. nobody wants to be bald, even if ur rich. persoanlly, i'd rather be poorer with a full head of hair than rich without my hair.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> i agree with that.. but there are many guys out there who find confidence with their hair. and they miss the opportunities associated with what their hair used to give them when they had it. nobody wants to be bald, even if ur rich. persoanlly, i'd rather be poorer with a full head of hair than rich without my hair.


 Yeah well - there is nothing we can do right now. And big corporate companies won't care that you under performed due to hairloss.

It's brutal out there.

----------


## Pate

> I also asked a dermatologist about histogen, and he said to me that a trial like that have to contain more participants. (300 people at least!!)
> 
> Histogen did phase 1 with 20 people and phase 2 with 50 people..
> :S


 That's totally normal. It steps up with each phase. Phase III will have 300+ people.

----------


## Pate

> about the photos thing,
> 
> Both Histogen and Zerinig showed us photos. 
> SID - they showed the "before after" photos from *Ziering* clinical trials - 3 months after injection in female patients in USA.
> 
> ISHRS - my questino is - what photos did they show us? from histogen or ziering trial?
> 
> Are there any photos from the trial in philippines???


 The micro photos of buzzed hairs are from the Philippines trial.

The macro photos of long hair are from Ziering's trial.

I'm still not super impressed by any of Ziering's photographs except the one of the black woman's hairline (it's a woman, not a man). That's the only one that unambiguously shows new growth IMO. The others have issues with lighting and combovers.

But like I've said, it takes a long time for hair to grow in properly, at least 12 months. The micro photos of buzzed hairs definitely, clearly show new growth. Just not as much as I'd like.

I'm pretty confident that as long as it continues to be shown as safe, Histogen will have a marketable product at this level of efficacy. And it will be the single best marketable treatment for hair loss other than HTs.

----------


## koolx

> But like I've said, it takes a long time for hair to grow in properly, at least 12 months. The micro photos of buzzed hairs definitely, clearly show new growth. Just not as much as I'd like.
> 
> I'm pretty confident that as long as it continues to be shown as safe, Histogen will have a marketable product at this level of efficacy. And it will be the single best marketable treatment for hair loss other than HTs.


 when did the trials showing results of the pics begin?

and it would be something to combine histogen with stem cells.. that'd probly be something worth doing. or combining those 2 with HTs.

----------


## Pate

> when did the trials showing results of the pics begin?
> 
> and it would be something to combine histogen with stem cells.. that'd probly be something worth doing. or combining those 2 with HTs.


 The Phase II trial began in January 2012 so the 12 month results should be out in 3 months time or around then. I don't know when Ziering's trial began. Probably about the same time.

The micro photos of the buzzed hair were at 12 weeks.

The macro photos of Ziering's trials were 12 weeks, 19 weeks and 24 weeks from the first set of injections. 

Ziering's trials had up to four sets of injections at 0, 6, 12 and 18 weeks. Leave them for 12 months and then have a look at the macro photos. If they don't have significant cosmetic hair growth by then, then the critics will be right.

----------


## 2020

> It's *all about growth factors* my balding brothers. If Histogen was going HAM with their injections (aka higher dose/frequency) AND using an AA, believe me results would be legit. Growth factors are *thee* big pieces of the puzzle.


 why don't they just do that then? How smart would it be to actually inject as much as humanly possible on ONE person and see if it produces good results. Then they could see if HSC is worth pursuing instead of now wasting decades without knowing how will it turn out... they're just wasting investors money and investors wouldn't necessarily panic over that since almost 90% of companies like Histogen fail. It's commonly known so. Look at initial returns of YouTube and Facebook versus starting investment. It's certainly more than 10x. It's all go big or nothing...

----------


## koolx

> The Phase II trial began in January 2012 so the 12 month results should be out in 3 months time or around then. I don't know when Ziering's trial began. Probably about the same time.
> 
> The micro photos of the buzzed hair were at 12 weeks.
> 
> The macro photos of Ziering's trials were 12 weeks, 19 weeks and 24 weeks from the first set of injections. 
> 
> Ziering's trials had up to four sets of injections at 0, 6, 12 and 18 weeks. Leave them for 12 months and then have a look at the macro photos. If they don't have significant cosmetic hair growth by then, then the critics will be right.


 12 weeks? Sounds good.. So lets see what the results will look like after 12 months. Hopefully in 3 months when the results are released that the pics will look as good as expected. I hope I'm wrong about my pessimism.. But I'm not gonna hold my breath.

----------


## rdawg

> The Phase II trial began in January 2012 so the 12 month results should be out in 3 months time or around then. I don't know when Ziering's trial began. Probably about the same time.
> 
> The micro photos of the buzzed hair were at 12 weeks.
> 
> The macro photos of Ziering's trials were 12 weeks, 19 weeks and 24 weeks from the first set of injections. 
> 
> Ziering's trials had up to four sets of injections at 0, 6, 12 and 18 weeks. Leave them for 12 months and then have a look at the macro photos. If they don't have significant cosmetic hair growth by then, then the critics will be right.


 It was gail's trial that started in January I believe.

Zierings was around may/june for some of the patients(not sure when he first started, but he mentioned a couple new patients coming in in june). That's why some pictures were from very early in the process for a few patients, as in 6-10 weeks for a couple of them.

They definitely need more time before we can make an absolute judgement about anything, so a year is usually common.

The early results have been great IMO, we'll see what happens with full year for multiple patients though(and more doses in phase IIb).

----------


## mjolnir

> this thread is such a rollercoaster between soon having a cure and to everything is hopeless. As far I'm concerned, Aderans and Replicel are finished. Don't expect anything from them. They don't have anything now nor will they have anything in the future.
> desmond was right when he said that those were our only hopes in the next 10+ years. Take away those two, and you're only left with Histogen who has shown poor results at this point however you want to spin it.  They had more than 5 years to figure out this crap and  up to this point they got nothing.


 What the heck are you talking about? Both Histogen and Aderans have photos showing visible growth, and so long as no serious health concerns arise, they'll both probably make it to market.

----------


## hellouser

> What the heck are you talking about? Both Histogen and Aderans have photos showing visible growth, and so long as no serious health concerns arise, they'll both probably make it to market.


 Ignore him, hes a fool, he'd like you to believe that 200 million dollar acquisition Aderans made on Bosley means the company is going to tank..... NOT that it will use bosley clinics as a vehicle for their final product.

----------


## koolx

> this thread is such a rollercoaster between soon having a cure and to everything is hopeless. 
> you're only left with Histogen who has shown poor results at this point however you want to spin it. They had more than 5 years to figure out this crap and up to this point they got nothing..


 i got to agree.. theres been so much talk about these "cures" over the yrs that its gotten sick already. the pics from histogen are really discouraging. 

but can someone please post links of pics of hair restoration of Aderans and Replicel? i'd appreciate it.

----------


## 534623

> What the heck are you talking about? 
> Both Histogen and Aderans have photos showing visible growth ...


 What the heck are you talking about??
Could you please post these PHOTOS where you can see "visible growth"?

----------


## rdawg

> What the heck are you talking about??
> Could you please post these PHOTOS where you can see "visible growth"?


 


I dont know how anyone can say there isnt a reversal of vellus hairs there. Slightly different lighting but you can clearly tell the first pictures had miniaturized hair that was white and was not growing at all, then she essentially grew numerous hairs on her temple. This was only after 19 weeks as well which is less than 5 months. Noone was beyond 24 weeks in the process from what I read, the most dosage I saw was 40 injections, but they did not state which area was injected.

I reiterate AGAIN, that this women ONLY received 20 injections.(repeated twice I may add though). So the fact that youre seeing reversal of vellus hairs is fantastic with this few injections at only 19 weeks! Numer

The other pictures also early in progress, showed minor growth as well, but the lighting was tricky so it's hard to definitively get behind them. None of the pictures seemed to show less hair, IMO they all showed varying degrees of growth and reinforcement(again it's debatable though as histogen needs to work on their pictures.)

I think they're just gonna wait until feb/march so they can see if they can get even better pictures, maybe they realized the ones they had would just get argued over with the difference in lighting etc.

----------


## koolx

> I dont know how anyone can say there isnt a reversal of vellus hairs there. This was only after 19 weeks as well which is less than 5 months. Noone was beyond 24 weeks in the process from what I read, the most dosage I saw was 40 injections, but they did not state which area was injected.
> 
> I reiterate AGAIN, that this women ONLY received 20 injections.(repeated twice I may add though). So the fact that youre seeing reversal of vellus hairs is fantastic with this few injections at only 19 weeks! 
> 
> I think they're just gonna wait until feb/march so they can see if they can get even better pictures, maybe they realized the ones they had would just get argued over with the difference in lighting etc.


 ok, the pics look good. now lets see the year long trial pics come feb or mar. that will be the true test. 

but this is just one patient whose pic youve shown. just be weary. many times companies trial 100 patients but showcase only a few patients that they feel have the best results. so, out of 100 if 3 showed the best results, theyll show that. but they wont show the 97 patients that lacked the results they anticipated. i'm not trying to be an ass. but i dont want ppl to be fooled out there either.

----------


## rdawg

> ok, the pics look good. now lets see the year long trial pics come feb or mar. that will be the true test. 
> 
> but this is just one patient whose pic youve shown. just be weary. many times companies trial 100 patients but showcase only a few patients that they feel have the best results. so, out of 100 if 3 showed the best results, theyll show that. but they wont show the 97 patients that lacked the results they anticipated. i'm not trying to be an ass. but i dont want ppl to be fooled out there either.


 I agree with you 100%, all I'm trying to say is exactly what you just said, wait for the next results, but the early results were promising.

Histogen needs to show MORE for sure, but I'll give them time to improve their results/wait for the results to get even better before I put a full judgement on them.

I'm very optimistic about them, they need to improve their pictures, but with them adding more injections in the next phase, not only will the feb/march update be big(full results for IIa) but the october next year will huge, as that's where the most injections would have been done and all patients would have been on this stuff for a while.

----------


## jman91

bump 10 charrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

----------


## jackhammer199

Wow, those pictures look INCREDIBLE...if they are in fact accurate and reliable? I hadnt seen any pictures from Histogen that looked anything like it, only the bird's eye view of a middle aged man's wispy hairs looking vaguely longer after a course of treatment...nothing as substantial and as thick as the pictures a few posts above me!!!!!!

This is good news, no??!!

----------


## koolx

> Wow, those pictures look INCREDIBLE...if they are in fact accurate and reliable? I hadnt seen any pictures from Histogen that looked anything like it, only the bird's eye view of a middle aged man's wispy hairs looking vaguely longer after a course of treatment...nothing as substantial and as thick as the pictures a few posts above me!!!!!!
> 
> This is good news, no??!!


 its only a good as a reliable mean sample. if a majority of trial patients regrow hair this dense then i'd be optimistic. but if only 1 or 2 ppl out of 100 show this much hair then i wouldnt trust it at all. in that case its a shot in the dark chance.

----------


## jackhammer199

Yeah, I guess we're playing the waiting game then...so desperate for this to work, i am rapidly receding into severe NW3 territory..i might even be there already and i'm just deluding myself.

COME ON HISTOGEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## 534623

> ...nothing as substantial and as thick as the pictures a few posts above me!!!!!!
> 
> This is good news, no??!!


 No, in fact, not at all, but such photos are at least sufficiently good to prevent a too high rate of hair loss suicide victims.

----------


## rdawg

> Wow, those pictures look INCREDIBLE...if they are in fact accurate and reliable? I hadnt seen any pictures from Histogen that looked anything like it, only the bird's eye view of a middle aged man's wispy hairs looking vaguely longer after a course of treatment...nothing as substantial and as thick as the pictures a few posts above me!!!!!!
> 
> This is good news, no??!!


 It's definitely a positive early result.

doing a quick search you can find the other pictures.

I'd say(this is my personal assesment), of around the 8-10 or so people they showed, about 5-6 had noticeable growth(minor to moderate), the others maintained. Noone lost hair.

again a few were very debatable due to poor photo taking which I'm not liking but I hope they fix that in the next update(for example a bright flash in one picture, no flash in the next, come on guys!) But overall you can tell some of them gained in a minor way, which for any product in trial is a good thing.

So as of now, if it were released it would be an OK product, that reversed some Vellus hairs(ziering says most if not all had vellus hairs at least somewhat reversed, this is somewhat noticeable in the picture) But I'm hoping and optimistic that it will become a better product in IIb. 

So yes you should be cautiously optimistic, at least from my point of view.

----------


## jman91

how does the percentage growth work? like they say most patients experienced a 40% increase in density..what does that mean for a norwood 7? that their 0 density on top will increase 40% to become 0 density still? i dont get it, could someone please explain.

----------


## Pate

> how does the percentage growth work? like they say most patients experienced a 40% increase in density..what does that mean for a norwood 7? that their 0 density on top will increase 40% to become 0 density still? i dont get it, could someone please explain.


 They don't test it on NW7s or slick bald areas. They only test it on areas that have at least some terminal hairs remaining. 

This is because they need good results for funding and they figure those areas that have less miniaturisation will respond better (which is logical). Nobody really knows how well it'll work on slick bald scalp yet. 

So if there are 40 terminal hairs in the field of view of the photo at baseline and then there are 56 terminal hairs at 3 months, that's a 40% increase in terminal hairs.

They don't inject anywhere there are 0 terminal hairs. Except one patient that Ziering mentioned in his trial, but they don't do hair counts in Ziering's trial anyway, because they don't shave the area. It's only the microscopic photos that have hair counts and they're all from the Phase II.

Still no info from Ziering on whether the one slick bald injections trial grew hair.

----------


## rdawg

> Still no info from Ziering on whether the one slick bald injections trial grew hair.


 Yea plus ONE guy isnt really a good determining factor on whether or not it works. But if he didnt mention it, it probably didnt do anything yet(in fairness he mentioned that back in june, so the guy had his first injections only 6 months ago or so.)

They need to expand this to 100+ patients. How many are expected to take part in Phase IIb+ Zierings next tests?

----------


## Pate

> Yea plus ONE guy isnt really a good determining factor on whether or not it works. But if he didnt mention it, it probably didnt do anything yet(in fairness he mentioned that back in june, so the guy had his first injections only 6 months ago or so.)
> 
> They need to expand this to 100+ patients. How many are expected to take part in Phase IIb+ Zierings next tests?


 Yeah one guy isn't enough, especially if they don't get growth... although if they do get growth that would be revolutionary. It would mean reversal of fibrosis which appears to be the real barrier to growing hair on slick bald scalp.

They'd need at least 100 patients for a proper dose-ranging study I would think. Hopefully they have enough funding for it.

Not even sure if Ziering is going to do more tests? His trial was for the IND application and once that's approved they might not need him to do any more.

Hanging out for the photos of his trial after 12 months with injections at 0, 6, 12 and 18 weeks... that will be make or break for HSC I think.

----------


## rdawg

> Hanging out for the photos of his trial after 12 months with injections at 0, 6, 12 and 18 weeks... that will be make or break for HSC I think.


 This year itself will be make or break for histogen.

We will know by Oct-December 2013 the near-full potential of what HSC can do, hopefully that's alot better than what they have now.

But even then, I'd say they're on track for release, they've proven minor growth/maintainence and it seems very safe, I dont see how they'd get turned down from approval to the market at this point.

----------


## jman91

> They don't test it on NW7s or slick bald areas. They only test it on areas that have at least some terminal hairs remaining. 
> 
> This is because they need good results for funding and they figure those areas that have less miniaturisation will respond better (which is logical). Nobody really knows how well it'll work on slick bald scalp yet. 
> 
> So if there are 40 terminal hairs in the field of view of the photo at baseline and then there are 56 terminal hairs at 3 months, that's a 40&#37; increase in terminal hairs.
> 
> They don't inject anywhere there are 0 terminal hairs. Except one patient that Ziering mentioned in his trial, but they don't do hair counts in Ziering's trial anyway, because they don't shave the area. It's only the microscopic photos that have hair counts and they're all from the Phase II.
> 
> Still no info from Ziering on whether the one slick bald injections trial grew hair.


 Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. Would it be a reasonable assumption then that this treatment could atleast thicken the donor area on a nw7, thus making a transplant more viable for those with low donor density in order to cover an extended area of the scalp? For example a norwood 7 would probably need about 6000-8000 grafts to get a cosmetically good result and if they had a donor density allowing for a max of 4000 grafts with a histogen treatment their donor density increases by 50% to 6000 grafts...is this theoretically on the cards? I am a diffuse NW2.5 and think that in 10 years time (my estimation for when this treamtment will me on the market) i will be atleast a NW6 so I am trying to figure out how useful this treatment will be for me by then.

----------


## jman91

> We will know by Oct-December 2013 the near-full potential of what HSC can do, hopefully that's alot better than what they have now.


 what do you think the final percentage regrowth will be by then?

----------


## Pate

> Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. Would it be a reasonable assumption then that this treatment could atleast thicken the donor area on a nw7, thus making a transplant more viable for those with low donor density in order to cover an extended area of the scalp? For example a norwood 7 would probably need about 6000-8000 grafts to get a cosmetically good result and if they had a donor density allowing for a max of 4000 grafts with a histogen treatment their donor density increases by 50% to 6000 grafts...is this theoretically on the cards? I am a diffuse NW2.5 and think that in 10 years time (my estimation for when this treamtment will me on the market) i will be atleast a NW6 so I am trying to figure out how useful this treatment will be for me by then.


 I don't think any of them will thicken donor because there is already a full density of follicles there. However they MAY grow some totally new follicles on a NW6 or 7's bald areas.

Replicel has reported that when follicles are there, the cells migrate into the existing follicles. When there are no follicles, the cells can coalesce to form a new follicle. The problem is, like every damn balding treatment out there, it is more effective on mice than it is on humans.

So if Replicel or Aderans can get their technology working properly in humans they MAY be able to grow some follicles on a NW6, and then transplant between the follicles that have grown. This would help conserve donor.

I even read the other day that Histogen did observe new follicle creation in mice with HSC, which is very interesting because Histogen don't actually inject cells, just the growth factors. So again it is possible that HSC could create new follicles on slick bald scalp too, as opposed to just reactivating damaged ones.

But for some reason it never seems to translate properly into humans.

Anyway. If you are 10 years away from a NW6 you will hopefully be okay. What are you doing to hang onto your hair now? It's extremely important to hang on to what you have now rather than count on regrowing. Because once that fibrosis sets in, scar tissue constricts around the follicle and there's no guarantee even Histogen will be super effective at reversing it. 

This seems to be the big difference between humans and animals like mice and macaques. Balding in mice and macaques is due to androgens but there is no scarring component so anti-androgens can reverse hair loss very effectively. But in humans, once that scarring sets in, the follicle is damaged. I strongly suspect that that is why all these treatments that work well in animals and in vitro don't work nearly as well in humans.

----------


## Pate

> what do you think the final percentage regrowth will be by then?


 The best performers should have more than 100% increase in both terminal hair count and total hair density.

The average should hopefully be around 50% increases.

About 10% of patients won't respond at all.

----------


## jman91

> Anyway. If you are 10 years away from a NW6 you will hopefully be okay. What are you doing to hang onto your hair now? It's extremely important to hang on to what you have now rather than count on regrowing. Because once that fibrosis sets in, scar tissue constricts around the follicle and there's no guarantee even Histogen will be super effective at reversing it. 
> .


 I've been on fin for about 18 months and noticed 0 regrowth or thickening but have had no shedding or noticeable loss since starting, is that normal? becuase i really cant tell if my progression would have naturally halted for a while or the fin is doing its job. I am worried that by the time treatments come out me, and lots of members of here, will be too far gone to get any benefit.

----------


## Pate

> I've been on fin for about 18 months and noticed 0 regrowth or thickening but have had no shedding or noticeable loss since starting, is that normal? becuase i really cant tell if my progression would have naturally halted for a while or the fin is doing its job. I am worried that by the time treatments come out me, and lots of members of here, will be too far gone to get any benefit.


 Yes, that's normal.

Stay on fin. As long as you're not going backwards you are fine. In most men fin effectively halts hair loss for at least 5 years.

----------


## jman91

> Yes, that's normal.
> 
> Stay on fin. As long as you're not going backwards you are fine. In most men fin effectively halts hair loss for at least 5 years.


 whats ur NW history and regime? and out of interest when do you think histogen or any other will release a truly effective treatment?

----------


## Pate

> whats ur NW history and regime? and out of interest when do you think histogen or any other will release a truly effective treatment?


 I'm 31. Was NW3 until I was 28, started fin and within 6 months was a NW5. I have no idea whether fin was responsible for that or if it was just my time. I suspect fin accelerated my natural loss for a while as my body got used to the drug and upregulated androgen receptors. Eventually it stopped and fin has halted my loss since then except when I stop taking it for a month, which I've done twice and lost more hair both times.

I will be a slick bald NW6 when all is said and done, like my mother's father. Curretly I've got about 10% terminal hair left in my NW5 zone.

I used to use the Big 3, now I've dropped minox because its effects are pretty minor and I'm just trying to hang on to what I have until a stem cell based treatment comes out.

I'm also about to start RU, if it ever gets through customs. Apparently it's been shipped from the US so it should arrive soon.

I think Histogen and Aderans both have a marketable product that should be available around 2017. However neither of them are particularly good yet, and I wouldn't call either of them an effective treatment - just a more effective treatment than anything we have so far.

I am hopeful that if you get enough Histogen injections over a long enough period of time, most guys would be able to restore effectively full cosmetic density in parts of their scalp that have SOME terminal hair left.

But at this stage that's still a big unknown.

----------


## jman91

> I'm 31. Was NW3 until I was 28, started fin and within 6 months was a NW5. I have no idea whether fin was responsible for that or if it was just my time. I suspect fin accelerated my natural loss for a while as my body got used to the drug and upregulated androgen receptors. Eventually it stopped and fin has halted my loss since then except when I stop taking it for a month, which I've done twice and lost more hair both times.
> 
> I will be a slick bald NW6 when all is said and done, like my mother's father. Curretly I've got about 10&#37; terminal hair left in my NW5 zone.
> 
> I used to use the Big 3, now I've dropped minox because its effects are pretty minor and I'm just trying to hang on to what I have until a stem cell based treatment comes out.
> 
> I'm also about to start RU, if it ever gets through customs. Apparently it's been shipped from the US so it should arrive soon.
> 
> I think Histogen and Aderans both have a marketable product that should be available around 2017. However neither of them are particularly good yet, and I wouldn't call either of them an effective treatment - just a more effective treatment than anything we have so far.
> ...


 I have heard a lot about RU but dont think i have the balls or time to take that stuff. 2017 is actually pretty close, the way i think about it is the World Cup flies past and before you know its 4 years later and the next World Cup is starting. As you are NW5 have you considered the tranplant route yet or will you hold on for other options? Even though im only a 2.5 i can tell with my diffuse pattern im heading for NW6 so I am already thinking about future transplants (only once i get past 5).

----------


## Pate

> I have heard a lot about RU but dont think i have the balls or time to take that stuff. 2017 is actually pretty close, the way i think about it is the World Cup flies past and before you know its 4 years later and the next World Cup is starting. As you are NW5 have you considered the tranplant route yet or will you hold on for other options? Even though im only a 2.5 i can tell with my diffuse pattern im heading for NW6 so I am already thinking about future transplants (only once i get past 5).


 I've thought a lot about a HT but I'm worried I won't have enough donor to get a natural look. Most of the NW5-6 transplants I see don't have good coverage at the back and don't look very natural until they get up to 7000+ grafts.

I personally would rather be bald than have a bad HT. There is a guy who works in my building who has tried to cover his slick bald NW6 with FUE and it looks terrible. There just isn't enough density and yet he's got a big bare patch at the back with serious donor depletion.

I'll consider a HT again if Histogen or Aderans can convert a decent amount of my thinning vellus back to terminal. Hopefully by the time you're at my stage you'll have an idea whether they can, so you can safely take the plunge!

----------


## Thinning87

Hi All

This is my first post on this forum although I have been following it for a long time (especially this section).

Well folks, why the heck are some of you so negative I think Histogen is going to be awesome. I read some stuff here in the previous pages and got worried after reading some of the things some of you posted but I have to say after hearing Spencer's episode with Dr. Ziering about Histogen (11/20/12 episode) I am even more faithful than before.

The bulk of it is that they have something that's working but they don't fully comprehend how to use it for best results. They are testing it on a larger scale now; but once they have more data and, more importantly, they have the ability to look at what happens to patients who were injected in the early trials, things are going to be a lot more clear. 

Dr. Ziering said very good things about the technology and its results, and how it works on pretty much everyone to some extent, and even if it doesn't do miracles, it can make a hair transplant a lot better with a combination of techniques. 

This is the best news ever! My father and other relatives affected by MPB would have seriously paid 50% of their income when they were my age 30 years ago to have what we have now. 

The future is very promising hang in there guys! Cheers!

----------


## 2020

> Well folks, why the heck are some of you so negative I think Histogen is going to be awesome. I read some stuff here in the previous pages and got worried after reading some of the things some of you posted but I have to say after hearing Spencer's episode with Dr. Ziering about Histogen (11/20/12 episode) I am even more faithful than before.


 what specific did he say that made you so optimistic? Add "probably not" after every "could" "may" we think" "significant" from that interview and everything posted on their website...

Their pictures are poor and their data is inconsistent. Simply measuring hair growth is not enough. Fibrosis and Calcification are huge in those with significant balding. "growing hair" is not enough. After decades of studying this in rats, they still haven't realized that they're wasting time - YOU CANNOT simulate baldness on rats. Don't bother testing solutions in rats. It's that simple.

Histogen is way past the time where it would be obvious that this product works and is effective. I give 50&#37; chance that this would even make it into the market...




> The future is very promising hang in there guys! Cheers!


 at what point in that time have they ever said about medicine that future DOES NOT look promising? Future always look promising! It was like that 10 20 and 200 years ago yet here we are...

----------


## Breaking Bald

Ignore 2020, he's a sad little troll who loves feeding on negativity. Misery loves company you know.

----------


## Thinning87

> what specific did he say that made you so optimistic? Add "probably not" after every "could" "may" we think" "significant" from that interview and everything posted on their website...
> 
> Their pictures are poor and their data is inconsistent. Simply measuring hair growth is not enough. Fibrosis and Calcification are huge in those with significant balding. "growing hair" is not enough. After decades of studying this in rats, they still haven't realized that they're wasting time - YOU CANNOT simulate baldness on rats. Don't bother testing solutions in rats. It's that simple.
> 
> Histogen is way past the time where it would be obvious that this product works and is effective. I give 50% chance that this would even make it into the market...
> 
> 
> 
> at what point in that time have they ever said about medicine that future DOES NOT look promising? Future always look promising! It was like that 10 20 and 200 years ago yet here we are...


 My optimism is based on the release of statistical results and the interview with Dr. Ziering on Spencer's show. Dr. Ziering gave a justification to why pictures are not so great, and I accept it based on my assumption that he would have no incentive lying and throwing garbage around. I think the statistical data is more significant that any picture at this point.

You also seem to refute their statistical data. Well I am perplexed, I was a math major and when someone tells me they achieved a statistically significant result it doesn't mean they are subjectively assigning significance to an event (like for instance "oh that was significant") but they are using hypothesis testing techniques that involve a level of conservativeness that are based on mathematical science. I am not sure you fully understand that from your post.

As to the _"Histogen is way past the time where it would be obvious that this product works and is effective."_ part, well... I live in SD, have worked for an IT healthcare startup in its early stages (which by the way had its management very close to Histogen people), I have an uncle that founded and is CEO of a biotech startup (not so start up anymore after 10 years, but still looking for funding, testing product development, etc.), I also have friends that are PhD's or post graduate researchers at UCSD and other respectable institutions (all working in biotech research studies of course) and they have showed me how they do research in their labs and how long it takes to go anywhere in the field to one day mess up an experiment and lose months of work.... 

The point is, and I apologize if I sound arrogant, it doesn't sound like you understand how a biotech start up operates... the nature of their work is extremely complex and developing a working product from an initial concept may take years if not decades at times. Like I said, my uncle's company has been in business for 7 years, has raised 3 stages of financing, hires new people and expands its facility, but despite all this still doesn't have a product! But that is just how biotech works! 

Not only do I find the notion of Histogen being slow refutable, but in the contrary I am even more excited because they are moving very fast for a start up in the biotech sector! Have you seen their timeline!

Going back to pharmaceutical product development, it is one thing to have a product that gives signs of benefits, it is completely different story to really understand how to use it.... it takes tons of tests and preparation and follow up tests years down the road... and financial resources... because biology and the human body are such complex fields of study, not to mention that if they rush into having a product and then something goes wrong near or after product release they will be crucified by their investors. 

With all this in mind, yeah shit does happen and I guess there's a chance that Histogen will be the Enron of hair loss... and they have been openly and deliberately lying about their results to their investors... and all these reputable people that work for the company (check out who works for them, they seem to me like people who have already done well on their own...) might have just faked the numbers.... BUT in my opinion they are simply trying to optimize a concept they have shown to work so it can become a reliable, consistent product and they can make billions with it.

----------


## eqvist

> Ignore 2020, he's a sad little troll who loves feeding on negativity. Misery loves company you know.


 2020 Is totally right! If you don´t think so, you haven´t search a cure long enough!

I still after 6 years get my hope up sometimes but for no reason..... Scientist don´t even know what the reasons for hairloss are yet.....

----------


## Thinning87

That doesn't mean anything

----------


## FearTheLoss

when is histogen supposed to post their next set of results? I was at a very respectable hair doctor the other day who said that histogen right now, according to what was presented at the meeting in the Bahamas, showing an alternative to fin but a little better...and they are only expecting the results to improve in the next trials..they have something that works, now they just are trying to make it work better...

----------


## Breaking Bald

> 2020 Is totally right! If you don´t think so, you haven´t search a cure long enough!
> 
> I still after 6 years get my hope up sometimes but for no reason..... Scientist don´t even know what the reasons for hairloss are yet.....


 lolololololololololololololololololololol 

Seriously man, I understand your pain but I think we are getting there.

----------


## Pate

> lolololololololololololololololololololol 
> 
> Seriously man, I understand your pain but I think we are getting there.


 Well we are not going backwards, that's for sure. We are only getting closer to an effective treatment. It's just a long, slow and painful road...

----------


## Kiwi

> My optimism is based on the release of statistical results and the interview with Dr. Ziering on Spencer's show. Dr. Ziering gave a justification to why pictures are not so great, and I accept it based on my assumption that he would have no incentive lying and throwing garbage around. I think the statistical data is more significant that any picture at this point.
> 
> You also seem to refute their statistical data. Well I am perplexed, I was a math major and when someone tells me they achieved a statistically significant result it doesn't mean they are subjectively assigning significance to an event (like for instance "oh that was significant") but they are using hypothesis testing techniques that involve a level of conservativeness that are based on mathematical science. I am not sure you fully understand that from your post.
> 
> As to the _"Histogen is way past the time where it would be obvious that this product works and is effective."_ part, well... I live in SD, have worked for an IT healthcare startup in its early stages (which by the way had its management very close to Histogen people), I have an uncle that founded and is CEO of a biotech startup (not so start up anymore after 10 years, but still looking for funding, testing product development, etc.), I also have friends that are PhD's or post graduate researchers at UCSD and other respectable institutions (all working in biotech research studies of course) and they have showed me how they do research in their labs and how long it takes to go anywhere in the field to one day mess up an experiment and lose months of work.... 
> 
> The point is, and I apologize if I sound arrogant, it doesn't sound like you understand how a biotech start up operates... the nature of their work is extremely complex and developing a working product from an initial concept may take years if not decades at times. Like I said, my uncle's company has been in business for 7 years, has raised 3 stages of financing, hires new people and expands its facility, but despite all this still doesn't have a product! But that is just how biotech works! 
> 
> Not only do I find the notion of Histogen being slow refutable, but in the contrary I am even more excited because they are moving very fast for a start up in the biotech sector! Have you seen their timeline!
> ...


 zomg! That's the best reply to 2020's sulking that I've ever read. 

Thanks for taking the time to write that. It means a lot to me and gives me hope. As a small business owner I know exactly how long these things can take. I've been trying to launch a piece of software for over six years! And it's nowhere near as complex as anything biotech!!!

----------


## FearTheLoss

Correct me if I am wrong...but histogen has already proved this product to be as affective or more affective than fin...they are just trying to improve the product in the phase III trials...plus there are no reported sides...I don't know why people are being so negative. This product can keep what people have plus regrow...so get a HT and use histogen's product and your golden for the rest of your life or until a cure comes along.

----------


## garethbale

> Correct me if I am wrong...but histogen has already proved this product to be as affective or more affective than fin...they are just trying to improve the product in the phase III trials...plus there are no reported sides...I don't know why people are being so negative. This product can keep what people have plus regrow...so get a HT and use histogen's product and your golden for the rest of your life or until a cure comes along.


 
I'm not entirely sure of the implications of histogen on existing hair (ie whether it can retain it or not) and although the lighting in their photos wasn't very consistent, there is clear and visible regrowth at the temple areas in a number of the photos, the black person in particular.  If it can be improved and can retain as well as regrow, its a massive step forward.  That combined with a skilful FUE/HST could potentially produce an amazing result.

If the concept can be improved, I just hope we see this in the next couple of years.  My fear is that this could take an age to arrive, as seems to be the case with new treatments.

----------


## Kiwi

> I'm not entirely sure of the implications of histogen on existing hair (ie whether it can retain it or not) and although the lighting in their photos wasn't very consistent, there is clear and visible regrowth at the temple areas in a number of the photos, the black person in particular.  If it can be improved and can retain as well as regrow, its a massive step forward.  That combined with a skilful FUE/HST could potentially produce an amazing result.
> 
> If the concept can be improved, I just hope we see this in the next couple of years.  My fear is that this could take an age to arrive, as seems to be the case with new treatments.


 Dude its already been an age for us oldies. For me over 4 years and Histogen have been doing this for longer then that. 

It'll happen. 

And I suspect a side effect will be that it saves existing hairs.

----------


## garethbale

> Dude its already been an age for us oldies. For me over 4 years and Histogen have been doing this for longer then that. 
> 
> It'll happen. 
> 
> And I suspect a side effect will be that it saves existing hairs.


 Kiwi, there was an identical post on another forum to your opening one on this thread (ie about the 50 injections costing $2000 and the response rates etc), so hopefully there is weight to this.

I am still relatively young (28) but my hair loss will reach its 10th 'anniversary' at the end of this year.  I hope some day I can end it but I guess i'm pretty used to it.

If they can improve results and get clinics/treatment centres etc established I hope this can hit the market soon

----------


## FearTheLoss

anyone know when Histogen's next update will come out?

----------


## FearTheLoss

and people need to stop being so negative..histogen is coming through! They have pretty much proven that the product works to maintain, strengthen hair and regrow some! now its time in the next phase to just make it work a little better!

----------


## rdawg

> anyone know when Histogen's next update will come out?


 they'll be releasing final IIA results probably within a month or two.

----------


## rdawg

In fact, maybe someone can clarify this.

Did they show ANY pictures from the actual IIA trials? or were they all from spencer's side trial?

cause there's about what, 50 patients on this stuff right now?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> In fact, maybe someone can clarify this.
> 
> Did they show ANY pictures from the actual IIA trials? or were they all from spencer's side trial?
> 
> cause there's about what, 50 patients on this stuff right now?


 yeah 50 on this last one, and the next one is supposed to be a couple hundred. 

I'm not super familiar with the process, what essentially happens in phase III?

----------


## rdawg

> yeah 50 on this last one, and the next one is supposed to be a couple hundred. 
> 
> I'm not super familiar with the process, what essentially happens in phase III?


 Phase IIB is next, not III. IIB they're going to try and improve the product even more.

Phase III I belive the product is near finalized, and they just have to test it out on a large scale(300+ patients)

----------


## Kiwi

> Phase IIB is next, not III. IIB they're going to try and improve the product even more.
> 
> Phase III I belive the product is near finalized, and they just have to test it out on a large scale(300+ patients)


 I wish they were in III now. I'd gladly take a couple of shots now :P

----------


## john2399

> I wish they were in III now. I'd gladly take a couple of shots now :P


 Isn't it been said that they can run phase 2b and 3 at the same time?

----------


## rdawg

> Isn't it been said that they can run phase 2b and 3 at the same time?


 not in the states, it may be possible in Europe however.

All in all, they are on track for a 2015-2016 release.

----------


## Thinning87

If the product works well once released a couple years doesn't scare me at all. There's not a whole lot more to add to what's been said in the last couple pages, at this point we have to wait and see what the results say when the product is released

----------


## Kiwi

> If the product works well once released a couple years doesn't scare me at all. There's not a whole lot more to add to what's been said in the last couple pages, at this point we have to wait and see what the results say when the product is released


 So 2015 in Asia if we're all really lucky. 

I dont want to look like this:

http://www.baldingblog.com/2012/12/1...r-with-photos/

----------


## FearTheLoss

mid 2015-early 2016 for Asia and probably 2 years after for the states...


either way, if this works, I'm headed to Asia to get it sooner.

----------


## Kiwi

> mid 2015-early 2016 for Asia and probably 2 years after for the states...
> 
> 
> either way, if this works, I'm headed to Asia to get it sooner.


 Ya never know - Aderans is in phase III so something might happen sooner if we're very lucky!

----------


## rdawg

> mid 2015-early 2016 for Asia and probably 2 years after for the states...
> 
> 
> either way, if this works, I'm headed to Asia to get it sooner.


 just gotta look at what they have left roughly:

IIB Feb 2013-Feb 2014
III March 2014-march 2015

assuming they do the approval process with Phase III, you're looking at a summer 2015 launch barring a huge mistake or massive unforseen problem with this thing.

----------


## LMS

I'm a 17 year old that was born with a huge widows peak, and now I've also got some temple recession going on.  So basically what I have to do is hold onto my hair for roughly 2 and a half to 3 more years via something like RU and then I'll just get Histogen Injections and my hair will become DHT resistant? I know so far they can only claim 2 years of effectiveness because they only have 2 years of data, but it seems like histogen will be a permanent solution, judging by the way it works.

And then I can get a hair transplant to fix my hairline and have a NW1 hairline that I never had!

If this is true I am pretty happy haha

edit: and aren't aderans and histogen essentially the same thing but they're tackling it via different methods? so basically now its just a race to see who gets it done first.

----------


## rdawg

> I'm a 17 year old that was born with a huge widows peak, and now I've also got some temple recession going on.  So basically what I have to do is hold onto my hair for roughly 2 and a half to 3 more years via something like RU and then I'll just get Histogen Injections and my hair will become DHT resistant? I know so far they can only claim 2 years of effectiveness because they only have 2 years of data, but it seems like histogen will be a permanent solution, judging by the way it works.
> 
> *edit: and aren't aderans and histogen essentially the same thing but they're tackling it via different methods? so basically now its just a race to see who gets it done first*.


 From what I understand. Aderans originally wanted to cause growth, but could not do so.

Aderans however is effective in one thing, immunizing the hairfollicles from DHT. Think a guarenteed attack against MPB, unlike Fin which works in varying degrees for different people. However the catch is aderans will only work for 60% of people, due to genetics. So essentially they'll test to see if you respond before hand.

Ideally, if Histogen improves the solution further, Aderans and Histogen together would make any other product useless, and would guarentee no further loss, as well as moderate regrowth.Hopefully histogen brings us up a norwood or so. Either way they should be great products to at least tide us over for an even bigger product(stem cell product for example) that will give us FULL regrowth.

From what i've seen, and not to get too optimistic, Minxodil+Aderans+Histogen should bring you from say a NW4 to a NW2-2.5. an early NW2 or so should be able to get most if not all their hair back.

----------


## re22

Has Aderans been shown to stop hair loss? I don't really know anything about what they've done.

----------


## Kiwi

> From what I understand. Aderans originally wanted to cause growth, but could not do so.
> 
> Aderans however is effective in one thing, immunizing the hairfollicles from DHT. Think a guarenteed attack against MPB, unlike Fin which works in varying degrees for different people. However the catch is aderans will only work for 60% of people, due to genetics. So essentially they'll test to see if you respond before hand.


 I didnt know this - so essentially you're saying Aderans could release this right now and it'd immunise people from MPB.

While that doesnt help me so much right now it would have helped me when I first noticed my balding. 

rdawg - my understanding was that Aderans are growing hair follicles for us in dishes and then transplanting those into our heads. Does that mean they have a second / separate product that does the immunising?

----------


## rdawg

> I didnt know this - so essentially you're saying Aderans could release this right now and it'd immunise people from MPB.
> 
> While that doesnt help me so much right now it would have helped me when I first noticed my balding. 
> 
> rdawg - my understanding was that Aderans are growing hair follicles for us in dishes and then transplanting those into our heads. Does that mean they have a second / separate product that does the immunising?


 I remember reading about what you're talking about, I thoguht that was what aderans was doing.

Desmond can clarify it better, but from what I've read recently, and someone can correct me on this if wrong, they have something to do with making the dermal papilla(hair follicles essentially) immune to DHT attacks or whatever. 

The catch is the 60% success rate, which cannot go higher due to genetics. So it'll be pretty unlucky if you are of the 40% that isnt possible.

The interesting part in regards to regrowth is what this can do in combination with OTHER products, can Histogen restore the damaged hair, then Aderans re-immunise it and histogen helps to regrow it? or maybe in combination with minoxidil, or even fin on top. 

I have no idea, all I know is more options are coming, and it's AWESOME.

----------


## Kiwi

> I remember reading about what you're talking about, I thoguht that was what aderans was doing.
> 
> Desmond can clarify it better, but from what I've read recently, and someone can correct me on this if wrong, they have something to do with making the dermal papilla(hair follicles essentially) immune to DHT attacks or whatever. 
> 
> The catch is the 60% success rate, which cannot go higher due to genetics. So it'll be pretty unlucky if you are of the 40% that isnt possible.
> 
> The interesting part in regards to regrowth is what this can do in combination with OTHER products, can Histogen restore the damaged hair, then Aderans re-immunise it and histogen helps to regrow it? or maybe in combination with minoxidil, or even fin on top. 
> 
> I have no idea, all I know is more options are coming, and it's AWESOME.


 I just need to stay strong and positive until these options come. Its damn depressing I tell you. So close yet so far away.

Out of everything I've read / seen I tend to think RU is about all people like I have at the moment.

Does RU cause shedding?

----------


## Dan26

> I remember reading about what you're talking about, I thoguht that was what aderans was doing.
> 
> Desmond can clarify it better, but from what I've read recently, and someone can correct me on this if wrong, they have something to do with making the dermal papilla(hair follicles essentially) immune to DHT attacks or whatever. 
> 
> The catch is the 60% success rate, which cannot go higher due to genetics. So it'll be pretty unlucky if you are of the 40% that isnt possible.
> 
> The interesting part in regards to regrowth is what this can do in combination with OTHER products, can Histogen restore the damaged hair, then Aderans re-immunise it and histogen helps to regrow it? or maybe in combination with minoxidil, or even fin on top. 
> 
> I have no idea, all I know is more options are coming, and it's AWESOME.


 You could OD on DHT as long as there are sufficient levels of growth factors in the scalp it should not matter...

----------


## Dan26

> I just need to stay strong and positive until these options come. Its damn depressing I tell you. So close yet so far away.
> 
> Out of everything I've read / seen I tend to think RU is about all people like I have at the moment.
> 
> Does RU cause shedding?


 Seems like with MOST who have tried, RU does not cause shedding...I'm starting it soon, as well as CB...going to compare results. I believe they are both viable options especially for those choosing not to use finasteride...RU would be the somewhat 'proven' treatment, while CB is at least completely side effect free, but not  proven due to difficulty in identifying the suitable vehicle.

----------


## Kiwi

> Seems like with MOST who have tried, RU does not cause shedding...I'm starting it soon, as well as CB...going to compare results. I believe they are both viable options especially for those choosing not to use finasteride...RU would be the somewhat 'proven' treatment, while CB is at least completely side effect free, but not  proven due to difficulty in identifying the suitable vehicle.


 Are there any good CB posts / images?

----------


## Dan26

> Are there any good CB posts / images?


 I've seen one lol....The problem with CB is the vehicle...People used it in the same vehicles as for the acne cream...so penetration for the scalp is very low...in the trials they used iontophorisis (basically a needle-less form of injection) with good results and no sides...I am going to try it with a new vehicle, and eventually going to micro-inject it....It is a tricky molecule, very large and apparently has to maintain crystalline structure to be effective and most normal vehicles can't provide that for it

I'll keep ya posted broski

----------


## FearTheLoss

Bad Luck Brian...."gets permanent sides from propecia, massive shed from minox, no regrowth, he's part of the 40% that aderans doesn't work for, histogen fails and he doesn't have good donor density"

----------


## Kiwi

> Bad Luck Brian...."gets permanent sides from propecia, massive shed from minox, no regrowth, he's part of the 40% that aderans doesn't work for, histogen fails and he doesn't have good donor density"


 Huh? What you talking about?

----------


## 2020

> Aderans however is effective in one thing, immunizing the hairfollicles from DHT.


 bullshit. Not going to happen. This is such a simplistic view on this that it's painful to read... your follicles were "immune" to DHT(which has been there since puberty) before you started balding, are you aware of that?




> Think a guarenteed attack against MPB, unlike Fin which works in varying degrees for different people.  However the catch is aderans will only work for 60&#37; of people, due to genetics. So essentially they'll test to see if you respond before hand.


 due to genetics? Which genes are those? not going to happen. Who would be their target market? Baldies willing to pay thousands of dollars for a 50:50 chance of looking exactly the same(maintaining)?

Aderans and Replicel are finished. Everything else is 10+ years away. Histogen is our only hope.

----------


## Kiwi

> Baldies willing to pay thousands of dollars for a 50:50 chance of looking exactly the same(maintaining)?
> 
> Aderans and Replicel are finished. Everything else is 10+ years away. Histogen is our only hope.


 I would be willing to pay thousands to maintain my hair _and_ keep my dick in working order. Caus f*u*c*k Fin. So yes there is a target market. Me as well as anybody else with money will pay for that.

Second. I'm not sure Aderans _are_ finished. I think like most businesses they will eventually launch with whatever it is that they have. Even if it is just as good as minox some people will want it because it doesnt have sides.

I pretty much agree about Histogen being our only real hope BUT I would like to say that I'm keeping an open mind about RU. Some people are posting good results... fingers crossed 2020!

----------


## clarence

> Aderans and Replicel are finished. Everything else is 10+ years away. Histogen is our only hope.


 Looking at the pictures Histogen has so far provided, and considering the amount of documentation (despite the remaining inconclusiveness) that has been done about the HST, I'm surprised you put more hope into the lab rats. Already finished with the HST, while others are busy investigating it?

----------


## Desmond84

> bullshit. Not going to happen. This is such a simplistic view on this that it's painful to read... your follicles were "immune" to DHT(which has been there since puberty) before you started balding, are you aware of that?
> 
> 
> Aderans and Replicel are finished. Everything else is 10+ years away. Histogen is our only hope.


 Fact 1: The cure to hair loss does not have to be found. It is sitting on the back of your head.

Fact 2: DHT is by far the main culprit, hence why Finasteride is so powerful at halting hairloss.

Fact 3: Androgen receptors have only been found on TWO types of cells in the hair follicle: 1) Sebaceous glands 2) Dermal Papillae

Fact 4: Dermal Papillae play the most important role in controlling hair growth cycle and producing hair growth factors.

Fact 5: Dermal Papillae on the back of the head lack Androgen receptors whereas Dermal Papillae on the crown and temples express a large number of Androgen receptors.

Therefore, most plausible hypothesis would be:

_"By transplanting Dermal Papillae that lack Androgen receptors, the remaining hairs will continue to grow indefinitely"_

P.S. TWO points you didn't take into account:

a) DHT levels prior to puberty are miniscule to non-existent. 

b) It is called Male *PATTERN* Baldness for a reason. Hair loss occurs in a pattern rather than all at once because Androgen receptors get expressed in high numbers in specific areas at a time (i.e. in the temples/crown) and then vertex, etc. Your hair follicles didn't always have so many Androgen receptors. At some point in your life specific genes switch on that tells your hair to start making more Androgen receptors. That's why some ppl bald in their 20's some in their 50's!

Aderans is definitely on the right track and ahead of everyone else in terms of releasing their product first!

Anyhow we'll know by Early May if Aderans is definitely going into Phase 3 or not...so let's be optimistic rather than sitting back and waiting for the world to end for all balding men and women! 

The science is on Aderans' side...let's be positive

----------


## neversaynever

Quite a few studies have confirmed that the androgen receptors on DP cells are the main culprit in degrading the communication between DP and stem cells, by altering the WNT, bmp (and other) pathways. It occurs until the communication completely stops (dormant follicle).

Logically, with Aderans, follicles are recruiting cells that have fewer androgen receptors. While we dont the the ratio of new cells / old cells that would save a balding follicle (cure), aderans have described they are taking steps to monitor the recruitment of new cells.

There is a chance the newly inducted dp cells might sprout more receptors, but theres also a chance they might not. I still feel there is one more factor, possibly outside the follicle, who knows.

I would stay hopeful. They are achieving regrowth for a reason. Besides, we'll know very soon if histogen and aderans will change the hair loss industry forever. If they both hit phase 3, I think we can be very excited. We're not looking at a real cure for slick nw6s, but I think the era of minox might be over soon. Hopefully fin too  :Wink:

----------


## 534623

> I still feel there is one more factor, possibly outside the follicle, who knows.


 It's exactly THIS factor (and this factor is INSIDE the follicle), why you will not see a real useful "cure" in the coming 10-15 years - if at all.
And it's exactly THIS factor, which is extremely difficult (at least today) to reproduce.

And finally, it's exactly THIS factor, why you -without any doubts- will never ever see a real "cure" neither by Aderans, nor by Histogen.

You guys should bookmark this post - or I will do it for you - for future reference (in 10-15 years or so) ...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## UK Boy

> It's exactly THIS factor (and this factor is INSIDE the follicle), why you will not see a real useful "cure" in the coming 10-15 years - if at all.
> And it's exactly THIS factor, which is extremely difficult (at least today) to reproduce.
> 
> And finally, it's exactly THIS factor, why you -without any doubts- will never ever see a real "cure" neither by Aderans, nor by Histogen.
> 
> You guys should bookmark this post - or I will do it for you - for future reference (in 10-15 years or so) ...


 I don't get you Iron Man, I browsed your threads on Hairsite throughout 2012 and you and your mates kept telling everyone that Gho was the answer to all our problems and that once you'd had your procedure with Gho you would be getting on with your life enjoying your new hair. Instead you seem to have snuck your way back onto this forum and seem to be acting just as you always have - crapping on everyone else's optimism. Why don't you andyour new sidekick 2020 just clear off an leave the forum if you're so convinced there's nothing coming for another 10 - 15 years.

----------


## 534623

> Why don't you andyour new sidekick 2020 just clear off an leave the forum if you're so convinced there's nothing coming for another 10 - 15 years.


 hmmm, it would be the same as if the whole stem cell researcher community on this planet would ban Sir Martin J. Evans, THE father of embryonic stem cells 

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10090

 just because he predicted recently "Only our grandchildren will benefit" from stem cell treatments.

----------


## neversaynever

Cure: A number of injections that not only reverse balding but also prevents further loss.

There is no true cure in the near future, but there are treatments that many will consider 'as good as a cure'. Especially early to mid baldies.

It's just about perspective. Some people want that elusive silver bullet, so when they refer to Aderans, they expect total reversal of balding. Anything short of that is a failure. Aderans have some regrowth, but if its compoundable?

I think it's reasonable to expect the likes of Histogen to replace Minox. Though more expensive, saves the having to apply the skin drying, aging topical.

As for the DHT issue, jury is out, but there is at least hope. Guys who are nw1-2-3 maybe even 4 have plenty of reason to be optimistic.

If HSC works as they claim it works, then I am happy to have injections every 2-3-4-5 years. Whatever. I just want something to replace anti-androgens and minox, and for people with plenty of hair remaining, Histogen might just be that replacement.

----------


## clarence

> Why don't you andyour new sidekick 2020 just clear off an leave the forum if you're so convinced there's nothing coming for another 10 - 15 years.


 What? How? Well, for a sidekick, not only is 2020 rather unconvinced that HST works; he's had himself _convinced_ that it's a load of bollocks, judging from his exclusive cultivation of hope in correspondence to Histogen.......

----------


## 2020

> I would be willing to pay thousands to maintain my hair _and_ keep my dick in working order. Caus f*u*c*k Fin. So yes there is a target market. Me as well as anybody else with money will pay for that.


 yes there is a market for everything... some people are willing to pay money for someone to shit on their face... one of those doesn't involve $100m+ initial investment.

Most people are way past the "comfortable" level of baldness. Also, what if I told you that women market share is much bigger than men's? Who is going to pay for zero results.




> I pretty much agree about Histogen being our only real hope BUT I would like to say that I'm keeping an open mind about RU. Some people are posting good results... fingers crossed 2020!


 RU? RU works, check HLH. If you don't trust RU then just buy CB which has actually been tested AND found to be more effective than fin... we're way past DHT blockers here. We need potent growth stimulants

----------


## 2020

> At some point in your life specific genes switch on that tells your hair to start making more Androgen receptors. That's why some ppl bald in their 20's some in their 50's!


 which genes are those? Yes, DHT is essential in the process but there is no way Aderans or Replicel are going to actually modify follicle DHT response. No way.

----------


## 2020

> Cure: A number of injections that not only reverse balding but also prevents further loss.


 you people need to stop thinking in those terms. Very few percentages of people actually follow hair loss that closely and monitor their progress. 95% of people are like "yeah, I'm 40, and I have less hair than I did in my 20's... what can I do about it?" That's where HSC would step in by reversing the process.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> you people need to stop thinking in those terms. Very few percentages of people actually follow hair loss that closely and monitor their progress. 95% of people are like "yeah, I'm 40, and I have less hair than I did in my 20's... what can I do about it?" That's where HSC would step in by reversing the process.


 

2020 you seem like someone who has done there research and is a veteran in this field...what is your take on histogen right now? Aren't they at the point where it would be very unexpected that they fail?

----------


## mjolnir

> 2020 you seem like someone who has done there research and is a veteran in this field...what is your take on histogen right now? Aren't they at the point where it would be very unexpected that they fail?


 Dude, don't ask 2020 - he's irrational and overly pessimistic, and for someone who's barely even lost any hair (I think he said he was a NW2), he gets WAY more upset about this stuff than is healthy. Histogen is only going to fail at this point if there are health concerns that haven't yet expressed themselves for the dosages and/or time frames of the current trials.

----------


## Kiwi

> yes there is a market for everything... some people are willing to pay money for someone to shit on their face... one of those doesn't involve $100m+ initial investment.


 Holy crap you're right!
http://www.mistressvenom.com/

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Holy crap you're right!
> http://www.mistressvenom.com/


 hahahha kiwi you are killing me! 

and I would back you up Kiwi, I would pay a few thousand for a guaranteed stop to my hairloss.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Dude, don't ask 2020 - he's irrational and overly pessimistic, and for someone who's barely even lost any hair (I think he said he was a NW2), he gets WAY more upset about this stuff than is healthy. Histogen is only going to fail at this point if there are health concerns that haven't yet expressed themselves for the dosages and/or time frames of the current trials.


 Well that's good to hear. I don't believe they have had any trouble at all with sides, so this sounds pretty promising. 

So right now, without seeing the next phases further injections, we have a product that is a little better than propecia, but doesn't have sides? And I believe everyone on the histogen trials maintained everything they had plus some? am i correct?

----------


## 2020

> 2020 you seem like someone who has done there research and is a veteran in this field...what is your take on histogen right now? Aren't they at the point where it would be very unexpected that they fail?


 I said it before: 50:50 that HSC would even make it into the market. Keep in mind that there is zero chance that Histogen would be running this thing themselves, they would license it for use for other companies if it was worthwile product to begin with. Also - Acell is on the market but it's probably useless for most...

----------


## Kirby_

> There is no true cure in the near future, but there are treatments that many will consider 'as good as a cure'. Especially early to mid baldies.
> 
> It's just about perspective. Some people want that elusive silver bullet, so when they refer to Aderans, they expect total reversal of balding. Anything short of that is a failure. Aderans have some regrowth, but if its compoundable?
> 
> I think it's reasonable to expect the likes of Histogen to replace Minox. Though more expensive, saves the having to apply the skin drying, aging topical.
> 
> As for the DHT issue, jury is out, but there is at least hope. Guys who are nw1-2-3 maybe even 4 have plenty of reason to be optimistic.
> 
> If HSC works as they claim it works, then I am happy to have injections every 2-3-4-5 years. Whatever. I just want something to replace anti-androgens and minox, and for people with plenty of hair remaining, Histogen might just be that replacement.


 Most sensible post I've read for a while, TBH. Yes, a cure's not likely to come about before most of us reach retirement age, if even that, but better, effective treatments, certainly possible at least, and very very necessary.

----------


## mjolnir

> Well that's good to hear. I don't believe they have had any trouble at all with sides, so this sounds pretty promising. 
> 
> So right now, without seeing the next phases further injections, we have a product that is a little better than propecia, but doesn't have sides? And I believe everyone on the histogen trials maintained everything they had plus some? am i correct?


 I think there were a few people who still showed some loss, but on the whole I think you've got it right. Slightly better than propecia without the negative sides. I think some patients did report _temporary_ sides at the start of treatment (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but I forget the exact nature or how long they last lasted.

Of course we don't know anything for sure at this point, so if propecia is working for you without major side effects, stick with it.

----------


## Thinning87

Folks I think you're being too negative about Histogen here.

Fin promises regrowth for very few people, and the regrowth (I had some) isn't that great.

HSC has shown much better regrowth in a very satisfying number of patients. That is so much way better than Fin, I don't see how you guys can even compare the two.

And this is without even taking into consideration the side effects Fin comes with, which Histogen doesn't seem to have.

If you are in early hair loss stages (especially if you have general thinning on temples and that's it) I think you can feel pretty safe about what Histogen can do as long as it's released relatively soon.

I think anything that halts my loss and regrows what I had before to a point where my thinning is not noticeable is a hair loss cure, and I would be willing to pay $100K or more for it.

Piece of advice to all of you out there:

We all know where we stand now, we have to keep our fingers crossed that Histogen goes smoothly. If we have a bit of luck we will have a product in 2-5 years and our hair will be likely to look OK if not even better. But right now we know are likely to hear more from Aderans or Histogen in March/April.

So in the meantime, rather than trying to fend off every post by 2020, go get in good shape and improve your life, and come back to this forum once a week to see if anything new came out about Histogen and other topics. Being obsessed doesn't help, and who knows you might accomplish something useful with this motivation, to the point of not needing hair in your future years!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yes there is a market for everything... some people are willing to pay money for someone to shit on their face... one of those doesn't involve $100m+ initial investment.
> 
> Most people are way past the "comfortable" level of baldness. Also, what if I told you that women market share is much bigger than men's? Who is going to pay for zero results.


 TBH I think these treatments are more likely to benefit the next generation.

We are ****ed.

----------


## Dan26

> Folks I think you're being too negative about Histogen here.
> 
> Fin promises regrowth for very few people, and the regrowth (I had some) isn't that great.
> 
> HSC has shown much better regrowth in a very satisfying number of patients. That is so much way better than Fin, I don't see how you guys can even compare the two.
> 
> And this is without even taking into consideration the side effects Fin comes with, which Histogen doesn't seem to have.
> 
> If you are in early hair loss stages (especially if you have general thinning on temples and that's it) I think you can feel pretty safe about what Histogen can do as long as it's released relatively soon.
> ...


 Lets be real fin is a joke and the fact that is the 'best' thing currently out there is sad...You can block DHT all you want it isn't going to cure your hairloss and if you are blocking it systemically by large percentages you will not be living at 100% fully healthy capacities. Especially if you are young, keep that DHT man! As long as your scalp has sufficient levels of growth factors ie Hisotgen injections you will be fine! Throw in a topical AA like CB and RU and we'll be good to go. If the Histogen trials were using fin or RU believe me the results would be much more impressive.

----------


## mjolnir

> Lets be real fin is a joke and the fact that is the 'best' thing currently out there is sad...You can block DHT all you want it isn't going to cure your hairloss and if you are blocking it systemically by large percentages you will not be living at 100% fully healthy capacities. Especially if you are young, keep that DHT man! As long as your scalp has sufficient levels of growth factors ie Hisotgen injections you will be fine! Throw in a topical AA like CB and RU and we'll be good to go. If the Histogen trials were using fin or RU believe me the results would be much more impressive.


 May very well be true, but there's nothing wrong with being cautious in our optimism. All we know for sure is what we've been shown, and it is pretty good. I think there's very little doubt that it'll hit the market, and I think it'll probably be significantly better than existing solutions for most people. If we do end up horribly disappointed though, it'll be because our expectations were far to high for that data we had, and I think that's something we all want to avoid.

----------


## Breaking Bald

Where the hell are those new pics that Zeiring promised us on the bald truth show???

----------


## rdawg

> Where the hell are those new pics that Zeiring promised us on the bald truth show???


 He's probably just gonna wait for the final IIA result pictures Which is probably only a month or two away.

----------


## clarence

> He's probably just gonna wait for the final IIA result pictures Which is probably only a month or two away.


 wow, that was useful

----------


## Kiwi

> wow, that was useful


 Patience!!! These photos could be the best f*u*(king photos for us ever!!!! 

Fingers crossed you've never been happier to see photos!

----------


## Breaking Bald

Having a bad day today  :Frown:  I just want this to be over! I can feel my left temple aching. Does anybody else get this ache/pain/tingling feeling? It's like I can feel when mpb is kicking in. It's weird.

----------


## FearTheLoss

seriously...histogen for phase III needs to just take everyone on this damn histogen thread and test on all of us

----------


## Kiwi

> seriously...histogen for phase III needs to just take everyone on this damn histogen thread and test on all of us


 HELLS YES! 

Are we not like their biggest fans ever  :Smile:

----------


## Kiwi

> Having a bad day today  I just want this to be over! I can feel my left temple aching. Does anybody else get this ache/pain/tingling feeling? It's like I can feel when mpb is kicking in. It's weird.


 I have shitty days too man. I don't know who you are or where you are but I'm thinking about ya! 

Maybe one day we should all meet up after this is all over and have a drink!

----------


## Breaking Bald

> I have shitty days too man. I don't know who you are or where you are but I'm thinking about ya! 
> 
> Maybe one day we should all meet up after this is all over and have a drink!


 I hope so man!! First rounds on me. I have good and bad days like you say. I hate letting it get on top of me but it just does sometimes.

----------


## FearTheLoss

hell, histogen comes up big...we are taking a cruise ship overseas to get this shit right away...drinks are on me the whole damn trip!

----------


## Desmond84

> Having a bad day today  I just want this to be over! I can feel my left temple aching. Does anybody else get this ache/pain/tingling feeling? It's like I can feel when mpb is kicking in. It's weird.


 Dude I know exactly what you mean  :Frown:  I get that too every now and then and it just ruins the whole day for me!

Think about it though, in Jan 2015 (2 years) we'll be on some cruise in Singapore sipping on Pina colada knowing fully well we got this curse over and done with  :Wink:

----------


## Breaking Bald

I love your positivity Desmond, it is a great force on the forum. However, I don't want to get my hopes too high encase nothing falls through  :Embarrassment:  

I just wish we weren't kept in the dark so much!

----------


## Desmond84

> I love your positivity Desmond, it is a great force on the forum. However, I don't want to get my hopes too high encase nothing falls through  
> 
> I just wish we weren't kept in the dark so much!


 There are so many updates coming up in the next 6 months  :Smile:   we will be celebrating every week  :Wink:

----------


## Desmond84

Guys, I know you're all depressed about your hairloss but look at it this way:

In the grand scheme of things, most of us are gonna be alive for another 40-50 years. We have to wait another 2-3 years to keep our hair! is that so bad? I don't think so! 

Positivity is all we have against MPB! Believe me  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Breaking Bald

I guess you're right. It's just hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel most of the time. It feels like mpb is crippling my youth sometimes  :Embarrassment: 

I'll probably feel ok in a day or two.

----------


## clandestine

> I guess you're right. It's just hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel most of the time. It feels like mpb is crippling my youth sometimes 
> 
> I'll probably feel ok in a day or two.


 Wishing you the best mate. It's entirely hard to go bald young, just know that you're not at all alone.

----------


## clandestine

> Guys, I know you're all depressed about your hairloss but look at it this way:
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, most of us are gonna be alive for another 40-50 years. We have to wait another 2-3 years to keep our hair! is that so bad? I don't think so! 
> 
> Positivity is all we have against MPB! Believe me


 I just worry that my hair is going so fast. I'm losing it so quickly, I hope I can hold out for 2 or 3 years. That's literally a long time. And I'm only ******ing 20 years old, heading for NW7 in my lifetime no doubt.

----------


## mjolnir

> I guess you're right. It's just hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel most of the time. It feels like mpb is crippling my youth sometimes 
> 
> I'll probably feel ok in a day or two.


 If you don't mind my asking, how far along is your hair loss/how fast is it progressing? I know in the scheme of things, the whole "it could be worse" thing can only help so much, but looking for positives is always worth a try. Or if you already are a NW3+, then maybe take comfort in the fact that even if these new treatments don't work out, you already know that you survive day to day with noticeable baldness; maybe it's not ideal, but you do have conclusive evidence that your life isn't over just because of hair loss.

Again, I know it's not much, but it's something.

Or remind yourself that if all else fails, you can always get a hair piece; tends to cheer me up a bit, at least. I really couldn't care less about the social stigma - as far as I'm concerned, it's no different than improving your appearance with makeup or nice clothes - and so really the only downside would be cost.

----------


## mjolnir

> I just worry that my hair is going so fast. I'm losing it so quickly, I hope I can hold out for 2 or 3 years. That's literally a long time. And I'm only ******ing 20 years old, heading for NW7 in my lifetime no doubt.


 Are you on propecia? I know the side effects can be worrying, but (1) the vast majority of people don't get them, and (2) you can always start with a really low dosage and work your way up. I know I wish I'd gotten on it sooner. To tell the truth, the only reason I didn't is because it never occurred to me that such a product existed; I figured if there was anything to be done about a receding hairline, you wouldn't see so many people who had one.

----------


## clandestine

> Are you on propecia? I know the side effects can be worrying, but (1) the vast majority of people don't get them, and (2) you can always start with a really low dosage and work your way up. I know I wish I'd gotten on it sooner. To tell the truth, the only reason I didn't is because it never occurred to me that such a product existed; I figured if there was anything to be done about a receding hairline, you wouldn't see so many people who had one.


 I`m not, but only because I'm ridiculously susceptible to anti-androgens. Stupidly susceptible to gynecomastia, even taking an AA in low doses.

No one knows why, either. I've had full panel endocrine done, and everything is normal for the most part. Still gyno plagues me when I try to treat hair loss.

So, will it be man tits, or bald? Both, perhaps? Bollocks.

----------


## Conpecia

> I`m not, but only because I'm ridiculously susceptible to anti-androgens. Stupidly susceptible to gynecomastia, even taking an AA in low doses.
> 
> No one knows why, either. I've had full panel endocrine done, and everything is normal for the most part. Still gyno plagues me when I try to treat hair loss.
> 
> So, will it be man tits, or bald? Both, perhaps? Bollocks.


 
I'm in the same boat man, and honestly I'm risking tits because I know there are proven ways to kill gyno and only fin will stop MPB. Also, gyno doesn't show up as much if you have low body fat, you go bald it's over and there's no covering it up.

----------


## clandestine

I know this to be true, but I feel seriously frustrated. Like what the ******, we literally have to choose between *growing breasts* and going bald? And oftentimes both to a degree, in cases such as mine, when trying to find a medium?

This is so ******ed up. I'm only 20 years old. ****** you, God. Or genes. Both. ******.

----------


## JJJJrS

> Guys, I know you're all depressed about your hairloss but look at it this way:
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, most of us are gonna be alive for another 40-50 years. We have to wait another 2-3 years to keep our hair! is that so bad? I don't think so! 
> 
> Positivity is all we have against MPB! Believe me


 I agree that it's good to be positive but I think the most positive thing someone can do is to come to terms with their baldness. Pinning so much hope on these future treatments and putting your life on hold is a risk.

We all know baldness sucks and that life would be better if we had a full head of hair, but there's only so much you can do about it. If these future treatments pan out, that would be incredible. But even if they don't, it won't be the end of the world.

From my personal observations, I don't quite share the same level of optimism in these companies (Aderans, Histogen, Replicel) as Desmond might. I think an effective treatment will likely come from a different, perhaps unexpected source. But realistically speaking, I still think this is some time away and we should be reasonable with our expectations.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> I agree that it's good to be positive but I think the most positive thing someone can do is to come to terms with their baldness. Pinning so much hope on these future treatments and putting your life on hold is a risk.
> 
> We all know baldness sucks and that life would be better if we had a full head of hair, but there's only so much you can do about it. If these future treatments pan out, that would be incredible. But even if they don't, it won't be the end of the world.
> 
> From my personal observations, I don't quite share the same level of optimism in these companies (Aderans, Histogen, Replicel) as Desmond might. I think an effective treatment will likely come from a different, perhaps unexpected source. But realistically speaking, I still think this is some time away and we should be reasonable with our expectations.


 
Yeah, but reasonable is...If we can maintain our hair right now...and histogen doesn't have a major unforeseen health concern...then in 3 years, or so, with the combination of a HT and histogen to regrow/thicken/maintain....we can have hair for life. Histogen has already proven to be better than propecia with no sides. That's pretty good.

----------


## FearTheLoss

histogen has proven to be more affective than and hair treatment available and has shown to be safe as of now....GET THIS SHIT TO THE MOTHERF**KING MARKET ALREADY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!

----------


## 534623

> histogen has proven to be more *affect*ive than...


 This is correct. They have proven that they not only can affect investors with their "proof-photos" and numbers.

----------


## Desmond84

> histogen has proven to be more affective than and hair treatment available and has shown to be safe as of now....GET THIS SHIT TO THE MOTHERF**KING MARKET ALREADY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!


 Amen! 10char

----------


## amibald

sucks to be nw2.5 at 19 though! in 2-3 years i'll be a baldy

----------


## Desmond84

> sucks to be nw2.5 at 19 though! in 2-3 years i'll be a baldy


 *Amibald*,

My friend started balding at your age (around 19), he's 28 now and is around NW4.5!

Worst case, in 2 years you'll reach NW3 and if Aderans is out, it'll halt your hair @ NW3 and Gho will bring it back to NW1!

A great man once said: "Only in the darkness can you see the stars. and I truly believe that!

Stay strong my man! and don't ever give up hope! because without hope we're nothing but a broken-winged bird, never to fly again!

----------


## amibald

> *Amibald*,
> 
> My friend started balding at your age (around 19), he's 28 now and is around NW4.5!
> 
> Worst case, in 2 years you'll reach NW3 and if Aderans is out, it'll halt your hair @ NW3 and Gho will bring it back to NW1!
> 
> A great man once said: "Only in the darkness can you see the stars. and I truly believe that!
> 
> Stay strong my man! and don't ever give up hope! because without hope we're nothing but a broken-winged bird, never to fly again!


 Would aderans replace the DP cells in the hair follicles currently still alive (meaning no more loss) while the HT would cover the bald spot permanently ?

Have there been any aderans results yet? I haven't looked but haven't heard much either

----------


## Desmond84

> Would aderans replace the DP cells in the hair follicles currently still alive (meaning no more loss) while the HT would cover the bald spot permanently ?
> 
> Have there been any aderans results yet? I haven't looked but haven't heard much either


 Pretty much  :Smile: 

Results are relatively positive! 60% of subjects achieved results on the same level to propecia after a single therapy session!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> *Amibald*,
> 
> My friend started balding at your age (around 19), he's 28 now and is around NW4.5!
> 
> Worst case, in 2 years you'll reach NW3 and if Aderans is out, it'll halt your hair @ NW3 and Gho will bring it back to NW1!
> 
> A great man once said: "Only in the darkness can you see the stars. and I truly believe that!
> 
> Stay strong my man! and don't ever give up hope! because without hope we're nothing but a broken-winged bird, never to fly again!


 Did your friend not try propecia or minoxidil?

----------


## rdawg

> Pretty much 
> 
> Results are relatively positive! 60% of subjects achieved results on the same level to propecia after a single therapy session!


 Hmm just to clarify, it seems aderans will be a great replacement(more direct solution) than Propecia?

thus little to no growth should be expected? It'll be fantastic to get off fin if that's the case!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Hmm just to clarify, it seems aderans will be a great replacement(more direct solution) than Propecia?
> 
> thus little to no growth should be expected? It'll be fantastic to get off fin if that's the case!


 I agree, not to change the subject of the thread, but I'm rooting for both of them. Propecia is already a relatively good treatment if you don't have sides, but it is just that, a treatment...it won't stop loss for ever, so hopefully aderans and histogen can change the game.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> This is correct. They have proven that they not only can affect investors with their "proof-photos" and numbers.


 What are you saying?

----------


## Buster

> *Amibald*,
> 
> My friend started balding at your age (around 19), he's 28 now and is around NW4.5!
> 
> Worst case, in 2 years you'll reach NW3 and if Aderans is out, it'll halt your hair @ NW3 and Gho will bring it back to NW1!
> 
> A great man once said: "Only in the darkness can you see the stars. and I truly believe that!
> 
> Stay strong my man! and don't ever give up hope! because without hope we're nothing but a broken-winged bird, never to fly again!


 Everyone loses hair differently. I for example started to notice my temples receding when I was 18/19 and at the age of 37 today, I still have a lot of hair and could hide the fact that I am balding with the rest of my hair, but a friend of mine started losing in his early twenties, and within about a year became a norwood 5. 

Look at guys like Sting who were noticeably balding at a young age but still have a decent amount of hair (all before Propecia came out), and then you see other celebrities who are out of the limelight for a short time and come back with a crome dome.

We all lose at a different rate, some faster than others.

----------


## bananana

> Everyone loses hair differently. I for example started to notice my temples receding when I was 18/19 and at the age of 37 today, I still have a lot of hair and could hide the fact that I am balding with the rest of my hair, but a friend of mine started losing in his early twenties, and within about a year became a norwood 5. 
> 
> Look at guys like Sting who were noticeably balding at a young age but still have a decent amount of hair (all before Propecia came out), and then you see other celebrities who are out of the limelight for a short time and come back with a crome dome.
> 
> We all lose at a different rate, some faster than others.


 thats true. I started losing at the age of 18, till 24 I was NW2, then in 6 effin months I came to NW3!

Now I'm somewhat stable since I'm using msm, I hope it will stay that way...

Now I'm waiting for histogen, aderans and possibly nigam.  :Smile:

----------


## Buster

> thats true. I started losing at the age of 18, till 24 I was NW2, then in 6 effin months I came to NW3!
> 
> Now I'm somewhat stable since I'm using msm, I hope it will stay that way...
> 
> Now I'm waiting for histogen, aderans and possibly nigam.


 You are ony using MSM? Doesn't it just make your hair grow faster?

----------


## bananana

> You are ony using MSM? Doesn't it just make your hair grow faster?


 I'm positive about that, oil and itch are way lower, I'm more or less maintaining  what I have. I'm also using cetirizine (just spray it on before sleep).

I'm soon ordering that new stuff doke is using  (co something..)

----------


## Kiwi

> I'm positive about that, oil and itch are way lower, I'm more or less maintaining  what I have. I'm also using cetirizine (just spray it on before sleep).
> 
> I'm soon ordering that new stuff doke is using  (co something..)


 You don't mean RU?

----------


## bananana

> You don't mean RU?


 No, sorry, I mean this - http://eu.cg210.com/am-customer-xsl-352.html

There might be something to it. I just don't like the fact that I'm going to have to wash my hair more often.  :Frown: 

Now I can go unwashed for 5 days before getting that dirty look (and dirty itch). It's good because I don't use a lot of concealer this way.  :Smile:

----------


## Kiwi

> No, sorry, I mean this - http://eu.cg210.com/am-customer-xsl-352.html
> 
> There might be something to it. I just don't like the fact that I'm going to have to wash my hair more often. 
> 
> Now I can go unwashed for 5 days before getting that dirty look (and dirty itch). It's good because I don't use a lot of concealer this way.


 And is working?

----------


## bananana

> And is working?


 Dunno, havent started it yet.  :Smile: 

The photos look too good to be true, we all know what that means...
I mean 8200 new hairs in 3 months, now that is a BOLD statement.

----------


## Rogerrabbit

Got this off their website. Onion? onion?? Do we have to stand on our heads as well?
men’s CG 210
TM  
 Hair Lotion
80 ml
INGREDIENTS: Aqua/Water,  Alcohol, Allium 
Cepa (Onion) Bulb Extract, Betaine, Glycerin, 
Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon) Fruit Extract, Parfum/Fragrance, Sodium Chloride, 
Theobroma Cacao (Cocoa) Extract, Paullinia 
Cupana Extract, Maltodextrin, Silica

----------


## Dan26

That stuff looks bogus to me man...If you are gonna try something of that nature go with cappilogain atleast it as legit ingrediants.

----------


## bananana

> That stuff looks bogus to me man...If you are gonna try something of that nature go with cappilogain atleast it as legit ingrediants.


 Cant argue with you there... I'm just interested in finding out how they came to +8200 hairs in 3 months statement... 

I mean, it's not expensive, 4 months supply costs like 2 visits to a restaurant, but still... I don't know, maybe I'll wait on Doke to see is there something here...

----------


## koolx

ok, we're nearing feb and i havent seen any pics yet of the 12 month results with histogen. does anyone here know when theyre expected to be released?

----------


## Kiwi

> ok, we're nearing feb and i havent seen any pics yet of the 12 month results with histogen. does anyone here know when theyre expected to be released?


 ok, hmmm let me see.... yeah what about February! ;P

word on the street is that they are going to be done with their phase 2 testing around feb so it stands to reason that they will want some time to sort that stuff out... and then once they have sorted the results out in a meaningful fashion...  then hopefully us balding brothers will get to see those results  :Smile:

----------


## koolx

> ok, hmmm let me see.... yeah what about February! ;P
> 
> word on the street is that they are going to be done with their phase 2 testing around feb so it stands to reason that they will want some time to sort that stuff out... and then once they have sorted the results out in a meaningful fashion...  then hopefully us balding brothers will get to see those results


 i was hoping for an early preview before feb.. lol.. but yeah i guess we'll have to wait. but even if the results are good we wont see this on the shelf for another 4 yrs in usa.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> i was hoping for an early preview before feb.. lol.. but yeah i guess we'll have to wait. but even if the results are good we wont see this on the shelf for another 4 yrs in usa.


 results are good it will be in Asia in 3ish years and probably 5ish for the US

----------


## john2399

> results are good it will be in Asia in 3ish years and probably 5ish for the US


 sooner than that...5 years...they already done with phase 2...get out of here.

----------


## hellouser

> sooner than that...5 years...they already done with phase 2...get out of here.


 I was thinking the same thing, lol. Phase III takes about 1 year and from a pharmacist member on the forum, its possible to apply for completion before the end of Phase III trials thereby speeding up a commercial product release.... which is where Aderans nicely falls into place as they too are finishing up their Phase II trials between now and March of this year. They had a presentation a couple years back claiming a commercial product by early 2014 which given all the circumstances puts them more or less on schedule.

Lets keep our fingers crossed for both Histogen and Aderans on meeting their goals.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> sooner than that...5 years...they already done with phase 2...get out of here.


 

I hope you are right brother, I'm just going off of what Dr. Ziering said in the interview with spencer

----------


## rdawg

> results are good it will be in Asia in 3ish years and probably 5ish for the US


 2015 asia, 2016 usa.

Not a huge deal though, you have fin/min to tide you over for a bit, then aderans and BIM are potentials for even 2014.

----------


## Thinning87

Damn the difference between 2015 and 2018 for me is huge. Starting in July, I'm gonna put 1k per month in the savings so I can do the procedure as soon as it comes out, wherever it will be in the world.

----------


## szn

so i thought this was supposed to be available after phase 3 in 2015?  Anyone have anymore details on the release date, etc?

----------


## koolx

> results are good it will be in Asia in 3ish years and probably 5ish for the US


 i disagree.. the CEO of histogen said in an interview with spencer (november 2012) that asia will have by 2014-2015. and usa by 2017.

----------


## szn

i hope histogen will have an all inclusive package that will allow people outside of SE Asia to come and get treatment

----------


## rdawg

> i disagree.. the CEO of histogen said in an interview with spencer (november 2012) that asia will have by 2014-2015. and usa by 2017.


 They could streamline it in the USA.

I honestly can't see this taking an extra 3 years to reach North America.

Can you imagine the media alone when this stuff is growing hair in europe, and the FDA says we gotta wait an extra 2-3 years to get it here!

I'd say one extra year to get it to the US, I believe ASIA is trying to do it in the style that the FDA would want, so that they can get it to market here faster(or at least something along those lines).

Pretty exciting time, get on some transition stuff guys! Fin just started working for myself after 6 months so it looks like i can hold on to my hair until then!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> They could streamline it in the USA.
> 
> I honestly can't see this taking an extra 3 years to reach North America.
> 
> Can you imagine the media alone when this stuff is growing hair in europe, and the FDA says we gotta wait an extra 2-3 years to get it here!
> 
> I'd say one extra year to get it to the US, I believe ASIA is trying to do it in the style that the FDA would want, so that they can get it to market here faster(or at least something along those lines).
> 
> Pretty exciting time, get on some transition stuff guys! Fin just started working for myself after 6 months so it looks like i can hold on to my hair until then!


 
when you say working do you mean you stopped losing hair or regrowth or thickening of hair?

----------


## mjolnir

> They could streamline it in the USA.
> 
> I honestly can't see this taking an extra 3 years to reach North America.
> 
> Can you imagine the media alone when this stuff is growing hair in europe, and the FDA says we gotta wait an extra 2-3 years to get it here!
> 
> I'd say one extra year to get it to the US, I believe ASIA is trying to do it in the style that the FDA would want, so that they can get it to market here faster(or at least something along those lines).
> 
> Pretty exciting time, get on some transition stuff guys! Fin just started working for myself after 6 months so it looks like i can hold on to my hair until then!


 The are real stem cell treatments for far more serious conditions than hair loss available in parts of the world other than the USA, and some of them even work. When did the media last report on those? They have better things to focus on, like celebrity scandals - you know, stuff that normal people care about. The FDA is rigorous, and arguably for a good reason. I hope it doesn't take them too long to approve Histogen, but don't hold your breath.

----------


## rdawg

> when you say working do you mean you stopped losing hair or regrowth or thickening of hair?


 stopped shedding, hair has thickened a bit.

Nothing major but 6 months in I'd say i've gone from a NW3 to NW2.7 haha, definitely noticeable but nothing life changing.

the thinning on top I think has improved the most, just thicker in some spots.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> stopped shedding, hair has thickened a bit.
> 
> Nothing major but 6 months in I'd say i've gone from a NW3 to NW2.7 haha, definitely noticeable but nothing life changing.
> 
> the thinning on top I think has improved the most, just thicker in some spots.


 That's awesome! You should for sure be good until the new treatments come ATLEAST... I'm 2 months in and noticed some increased shedding of miniaturized hairs only, but I think that is a good sign my research says they will grow back thicker...


ALSO, for the FDA process, I am positive I read somewhere that they only speed up the approval process for drugs that are treating life threatening illnesses, and such, and not something cosmetic like hair loss..

----------


## hellouser

> I honestly can't see this taking an extra 3 years to reach North America.
> 
> Can you imagine the media alone when this stuff is growing hair in europe, and the FDA says we gotta wait an extra 2-3 years to get it here!


 Ultimately its up to the public. Demand enough of something, and you'll get it. If the FDA decides to take forever, you guys (Americans) will need to make a STRONG push to force them to speed up the process. I guarantee you that if you make enough noise and work hard enough on your efforts you *can* get some results.

Demand it, don't just mope for it.

I've worked in marketing agencies before and even started grassroots political rallys where I've been contacted by Jack Layton (former political leader of the NDP in Canada). We spread our message long and hard and we ultimately won our fight.

I'm positive that if enough efforts are put forth into this situation you guys can get some results... I've fought before and I'm willing to fight 10 times as hard for something as important as my satisfaction with life... my hair means a lot to me, my self esteem, my confidence, etc.

Actually, right NOW would be a good time to start a push for this....

.... you know what, on further reflection I'm going to reach out to Aderans myself and hopefully make some connections with some PR individuals. Get the ball rolling now and raise awareness both in media and in the public and get everyone involved and FORCE the release of Aderans ON SCHEDULE.

----------


## koolx

> Ultimately its up to the public. Demand enough of something, and you'll get it. If the FDA decides to take forever, you guys (Americans) will need to make a STRONG push to force them to speed up the process. I guarantee you that if you make enough noise and work hard enough on your efforts you *can* get some results.
> 
> Demand it, don't just mope for it.
> 
> I've worked in marketing agencies before and even started grassroots political rallys where I've been contacted by Jack Layton (former political leader of the NDP in Canada). We spread our message long and hard and we ultimately won our fight.
> 
> I'm positive that if enough efforts are put forth into this situation you guys can get some results... I've fought before and I'm willing to fight 10 times as hard for something as important as my satisfaction with life... my hair means a lot to me, my self esteem, my confidence, etc.
> 
> Actually, right NOW would be a good time to start a push for this....
> ...


 im with u on that one.  and if u need an extra supporter just remember u can find me here.

----------


## Kiwi

> Ultimately its up to the public. Demand enough of something, and you'll get it. If the FDA decides to take forever, you guys (Americans) will need to make a STRONG push to force them to speed up the process. I guarantee you that if you make enough noise and work hard enough on your efforts you *can* get some results.
> 
> Demand it, don't just mope for it.
> 
> I've worked in marketing agencies before and even started grassroots political rallys where I've been contacted by Jack Layton (former political leader of the NDP in Canada). We spread our message long and hard and we ultimately won our fight.
> 
> I'm positive that if enough efforts are put forth into this situation you guys can get some results... I've fought before and I'm willing to fight 10 times as hard for something as important as my satisfaction with life... my hair means a lot to me, my self esteem, my confidence, etc.
> 
> Actually, right NOW would be a good time to start a push for this....
> ...


 I think you should also contact Histogen. They are onto something too  :Smile:

----------


## 534623

> They are onto something too


 I always wonder how you guys conclude that something from Histogen, Replicel, Aderans etc will work?

Is it because they simply claim A) "It works!" or is it because you guys (wishful)think B) "It has to work even if it doesn't work!" ?

So your thoughts are based on WHAT exactly?
A) or B) - both?

----------


## Scientalk56

It's based on clinical trails..
but more research have to be done, on larger number of people (phase III) so the FDA can approve the drug.
At this point, i think it's early to conclude anything.. we have to wait until phase III. 
Hope it will work

----------


## Dan26

> I always wonder how you guys conclude that something from Histogen, Replicel, Aderans etc will work?
> 
> Is it because they simply claim A) "It works!" or is it because you guys (wishful)think B) "It has to work even if it doesn't work!" ?
> 
> So your thoughts are based on WHAT exactly?
> A) or B) - both?


 It's called science man! I only bank on Histogen working personally...Injecting the scalp with growth factors is the most essential step to fighting hair loss.

----------


## Kiwi

> It's called science man! I only bank on Histogen working personally...Injecting the scalp with growth factors is the most essential step to fighting hair loss.


 Don't worry too much about 534623 (aka ironman). 

He's a Histogen skeptic and a Dr Gho fan boy.

----------


## Kiwi

> I always wonder how you guys conclude that something from Histogen, Replicel, Aderans etc will work?
> 
> Is it because they simply claim A) "It works!" or is it because you guys (wishful)think B) "It has to work even if it doesn't work!" ?
> 
> So your thoughts are based on WHAT exactly?
> A) or B) - both?


 Wow. 

You just described the same way you conclude your own opinions about Dr Gho and his HST 3.0 magic slicey dicey crap.

Of course I'm not going to let that stop me booking a Gho transplant (I believe he is the FUE gold standard). And nor should that let you not get a Histogen shot when they launch.

Now grow up ironman and stop trolling. It is just not cool to piss on other peoples parades - please don't kill our hope  :Smile:

----------


## clarence

> (I believe he is the FUE gold standard).


 Could you please discuss this further in the Gho section of the forum or point us to a thread where you discuss it?

----------


## Kiwi

> Could you please discuss this further in the Gho section of the forum or point us to a thread where you discuss it?


 These are pretty convincing. I don't care what anybody else says - to me its just glorified FUE and I hope everybody starts doing it the Gho way :P

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11132
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10940

----------


## Kiwi

Oh and calling it glorified FUE isnt meant to be derogatory at all. I'm becoming a believer - and I want it. But I also want histogen when it comes  :Big Grin:

----------


## clarence

> Oh and calling it glorified FUE isnt meant to be derogatory at all. I'm becoming a believer - and I want it. But I also want histogen when it comes


 Who gives a fck about your gloryhole.

----------


## JJJJrS

> It's based on clinical trails..
> but more research have to be done, on larger number of people (phase III) so the FDA can approve the drug.
> At this point, i think it's early to conclude anything.. we have to wait until phase III. 
> Hope it will work


 I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of Histogen at this point.

Most of the key photographic evidence Histogen has released so far has come from this document. If you look closely at the pictures in that document there's a couple of things that seem off.

First, take a look at the macro photographs that are posted, for example, the bottom before and after macro photographs labelled "S2018." If you zoom into those photos and actually count the hairs, there is practically no difference in the hair count for the before and after. I'd encourage you to try this out if you have any doubts. Needless to say, the numbers posted on the side do not match at all.

If you look at the top before and after macro photographs labelled "S1016," the direction of the hairs, their arrangement, and even the skin tone looks different. In other words, the before and after areas don't seem to match up.

Finally, if you look at the other before and after photographs in the third column, the conditions seem totally different. The before pictures are blasted with flash and the lighting seems much harsher than the after shots. This is a classic technique used to make results appear much more impressive than they actually are.

So my question is, why would Histogen resort to this? Of course, I'd love for them to succeed but manipulating photos and numbers like that doesn't sit well with me. Just remember for a second that these pictures are probably the best they could show too.

----------


## Thinning87

We've been over the picture issue a thousand times in this thread...

----------


## JJJJrS

> We've been over the picture issue a thousand times in this thread...


 What else do you propose we talk about? Judging by your posts, it seems you'd rather talk about your plans for Histogen's release when we don't even know whether it works.

I'm not here to bring anyone down, I just would like a realistic picture of Histogen instead of wishful thinking. Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly about their results would make you so excited? There's obvious inconsistencies with every single photo they've released and this was their "best" results.

----------


## Scientalk56

> What else do you propose we talk about? Judging by your posts, it seems you'd rather talk about your plans for Histogen's release when we don't even know whether it works.
> 
> I'm not here to bring anyone down, I just would like a realistic picture of Histogen instead of wishful thinking. Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly about their results would make you so excited? There's obvious inconsistencies with every single photo they've released and this was their "best" results.


 
No one should make any plan. It means nothing Until it's FDA approved.
What people are trying to do here - is to have some hope. but everyone here should be careful with that hope.

----------


## hellouser

> No one should make any plan. It means nothing Until it's FDA approved.


 Too true although given timelines and some kind of knowledge of whats happening will give us options for future treatments. I mean, suppose Histogen said "We've filed our application for FDA approval and expect to be given the green light in 3 months'

Well, what do you do then? Go for a FUT/FUE transplant in the next three months? What if it were 6 months? Or 12 months? Do you still go for a temporary fix with an HT? I'd like to be given SOME kind of notice as to whats going to happen... or what to expect.

I agree that its too early to get excited as if the product was released TODAY but that doesnt mean we shouldnt have any expectations.

----------


## Scientalk56

> Well, what do you do then? Go for a FUT/FUE transplant in the next three months? What if it were 6 months? Or 12 months? Do you still go for a temporary fix with an HT? I'd like to be given SOME kind of notice as to whats going to happen... or what to expect.
> .


 lol i would do nothing. i'm not planning to have ht or fue. i don't even take propecia. My only treatment is rogaine foam. The most important thing for me is safety.

What Histogen claims to offer is safe, effective , non-invasive*  long term treatment. 
*non-invasive - Histogen injections are not considered invasive because its not a surgery like Hair Transplant.

I don't think i need more than that. for me it's a cure. (i'm Nw 2-3)
What Histogen need to do is to get FDA Approval after phase 2/3 is done.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> What else do you propose we talk about? Judging by your posts, it seems you'd rather talk about your plans for Histogen's release when we don't even know whether it works.
> 
> I'm not here to bring anyone down, I just would like a realistic picture of Histogen instead of wishful thinking. Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly about their results would make you so excited? There's obvious inconsistencies with every single photo they've released and this was their "best" results.


 In the photos they only treated a small portion of the head, not the whole head. That is why the pictures don't look astonishing, what is exciting is they grew hair in the spots they were trying too, I think, they are going to inject more often and over a wider area in the next trail.

----------


## JJJJrS

> In the photos they only treated a small portion of the head, not the whole head. That is why the pictures don't look astonishing, what is exciting is they grew hair in the spots they were trying too, I think, they are going to inject more often and over a wider area in the next trail.


 If you look at the bottom before and after macro-photo and count the hairs, like I did  :Embarrassment: , than you would see that there is hardly a difference at all. Definitely not even close to a 35+% increase in hair like the statistic beside the picture says. The other macro-photo doesn't even look like the same area at all. Just compare the hair pattern and direction. Finally, the photos in the third column have totally different lighting conditions making a comparison almost useless.

So my issue is not so much that the results weren't impressive enough but rather with the way they're presented. Histogen has mentioned some impressive sounding numbers in their press releases. There must be a basis for these numbers but these pictures prove nothing.

I want Histogen or any other hair loss solution in the pipeline to work. It's in the experimental stages and they deserve time to work on things. But the pictures they posted are highly suspicious to me and I just don't understand why a credible company working on a hairloss cure would try to pass these off as serious results.

----------


## koolx

> Oh and calling it glorified FUE isnt meant to be derogatory at all. I'm becoming a believer - and I want it. But I also want histogen when it comes


 so dr gho combines stem cells with an ht procedure? can someone post *convincing* pics showing this works?

----------


## Thinning87

> What else do you propose we talk about? Judging by your posts, it seems you'd rather talk about your plans for Histogen's release when we don't even know whether it works.


 If that's really what you got out of my post, I don't know how to reply. I shall repeat my thought below (see below...).





> I'm not here to bring anyone down, I just would like a realistic picture of Histogen instead of wishful thinking. Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly about their results would make you so excited? There's obvious inconsistencies with every single photo they've released and this was their "best" results.


 Unlike other people here I am not here to "hope". I always have hope, but like you, I'm here to keep informed. 

We all know Histogen has released data that looks very promising. However, it is also true that they have bad pictures. 

This means there is a chance that either one of the two following options are true:

1) They just happen to have been unprepared to take convincing pictures. As mentioned by Ziering, they are on to something and if everything goes according to plan we will have a better version of Rogaine and hopefully will be able to quit the Finasteride. 

2) They failed and they are releasing false data. 

Now, while it is possible that #2 is true, I can't believe that they would be so stupid to release pictures that contradict their own data... don't you think? Not to mention I don't understand what they hope to achieve if they were massively defrauding the audience... eventually people would notice... and I don't understand what the incentive for Histogen would be....

I think there is a much greater chance that they are on to something. This is not solely based on "hope", but logical reasoning. If we have two alternative options and one is less likely to be true, it follows that the other one is more likely to be true (I am so smart!!).

If option 1 is true, it doesn't mean everyone's hair will be safe in 2015 for sure. There still seems to be plenty that could go wrong. 

For this reason, I remain cautiously optimistic. I'll take some Fin and keep my hair extremely short when I have to (I tried the look by cutting it 4 days ago and I have been able to accept my self very quickly, unexpectedly).

In the meantime, chill out ya'll and let's hold off until we have some more official information.

----------


## Kiwi

> If that's really what you got out of my post, I don't know how to reply. I shall repeat my thought below (see below...).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike other people here I am not here to "hope". I always have hope, but like you, I'm here to keep informed. 
> 
> We all know Histogen has released data that looks very promising. However, it is also true that they have bad pictures. 
> 
> ...


 Agreed. This particular thread is about "histogen at the conference" though. 

It's not a thread for ironman to come vent his suspicions. Ironman should create his on thread for that. Then I don't have to read it.

And until he does that I'm going to keep disrupting the Gho forums.

----------


## hellouser

> (I tried the look by cutting it 4 days ago and I have been able to accept my self very quickly, unexpectedly).


 Most guys looks better with short hair anyway. Women arent keen on long hair unless you look like Brad Pitt. Not saying youre unattractive but rather implying that brad pitt is on an entirely different level compared to us mere mortals... I still rank myself a 10/10  :Big Grin:

----------


## koolx

> I
> We all know Histogen has released data that looks very promising. However, it is also true that they have bad pictures.


 since the pics are bad it means that histogen doesnt work.. period.

----------


## 534623

> Agreed. This particular thread is about "histogen at the conference" though. 
> 
> It's not a thread for ironman to come vent his suspicions. Ironman should create his on thread for that ...


 ...what I actually did:
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10051 




> ...I'm going to keep disrupting *the Gho forums*.


 Where can I find them? I'm interested.

----------


## Scientalk56

> ...what I actually did:
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10051 
> .


 Ok, Let's assume you're 100% right, and Histogen is a fail. What's next?
What are we supposed to do?
Whether Histogen is a scam or a cure, what are we going to do with this information? 
It's not like the FDA would approve them based on the photos they gave us... We (regular people) are useless at this point.
We have to wait and see. 
Maybe there are many people here who are willing to go asia in case histogen release a product even without FDA approval. I'm not one of them because it can be very risky.

*FDA approval process is very strict for a reason.*

We are all here to keep informed, like someone here has said. I'm not going to analyze anything because it won't make a difference. 

Many people here analyze stuff based on their poor knowledge in science. Posts like "lets push the FDA or Histogen to release the product earlier" is one of the posts that makes me laugh hard. Those Stuff (Clinical trails, researches) need time and effort.
They need time, money,  manpower, etc.. it's not a school assignment that they have to give early. it's a clinical trail for god's sake.

----------


## koolx

> Ok, Let's assume you're 100% right, and Histogen is a fail. What's next?
> What are we supposed to do?
> Whether Histogen is a scam or a cure, what are we going to do with this information? 
> It's not like the FDA would approve them based on the photos they gave us... We (regular people) are useless at this point.
> We have to wait and see. 
> Maybe there are many people here who are willing to go asia in case histogen release a product even without FDA approval. I'm not one of them because it can be very risky.
> 
> *FDA approval process is very strict for a reason.*
> 
> ...


 are u serious dude? wat planet are u on? there are millions of sutterers out there and the FDA doesnt care.. we need to push the FDA into getting this to market.. also the FDA is an industry-influenced agency . this means that if a jealous company or industry of companies fear the potential of a new product which may grab their profits from them, theyll do wat it takes to influence the FDA from approving it.. its happened many times to so many promising drugs.. so much for your stupid FDA.

----------


## Scientalk56

1- Drugs like what have been approved in a "quick" process ?
2- How can you push the FDA into approving a drug?

----------


## koolx

> 1- Drugs like what have been approved in a "quick" process ?
> 2- How can you push the FDA into approving a drug?


 an excellent example is maxi-K gene therapy for ED sufferers. it was a cure for ED that passed FDA trials with flying colors. but at the last minute, the FDA pulled the plug on it cuz it wasnt a drug for "serious conditions" like cancer, HIV, etc. yeah right! we all know why the FDA didnt approve it.. cuz big companies like pfizer and merck influenced or bribed it from being sold in the market.

----------


## hellouser

> Many people here analyze stuff based on their poor knowledge in science. Posts like "lets push the FDA or Histogen to release the product earlier" is one of the posts that makes me laugh hard. Those Stuff (Clinical trails, researches) need time and effort.
> They need time, money,  manpower, etc.. it's not a school assignment that they have to give early. it's a clinical trail for god's sake.


 Since I know youre referring to me on this, I'm going to add my 2 cents on this.

What is the reason for the FDA taking years longer to approve of a product or procedure when Aderans and Histogen have completed all of their clinical trials? Hmm?

Aderans is starting their Phase III trials this year, theyre finishing up Phase II in the next couple of months. Given than Phase III takes about 1 year, why would you laugh at anyone for trying to push the FDA for approval when all the trials and data, safety, efficacy etc have all been finalized?

I think youre naive if youre under the impression that the FDA will do a solid job of approval for a company thats been doing research for nearly a decade if they take a number of years longer to give the go-ahead.

----------


## Kiwi

> Since I know youre referring to me on this, I'm going to add my 2 cents on this.
> 
> What is the reason for the FDA taking years longer to approve of a product or procedure when Aderans and Histogen have completed all of their clinical trials? Hmm?
> 
> Aderans is starting their Phase III trials this year, theyre finishing up Phase II in the next couple of months. Given than Phase III takes about 1 year, why would you laugh at anyone for trying to push the FDA for approval when all the trials and data, safety, efficacy etc have all been finalized?
> 
> I think youre naive if youre under the impression that the FDA will do a solid job of approval for a company thats been doing research for nearly a decade if they take a number of years longer to give the go-ahead.


 I'm laughing at your naïveté, I wish us mere plebs could speed it up but we can't. It's American beauroracy. Ill tell you one thing - if you guys make the mistake of electing a red neck Christian whos opposed to stem cell research we're all ****ed!!!

God bless Obama voters.

Oh yeah and for the record everything new takes about 15 years to go through FDA approval no matter what.

----------


## koolx

> What is the reason for the FDA taking years longer to approve of a product or procedure when Aderans and Histogen have completed all of their clinical trials? Hmm?
> 
> Aderans is starting their Phase III trials this year, theyre finishing up Phase II in the next couple of months. Given than Phase III takes about 1 year, why would you laugh at anyone for trying to push the FDA for approval when all the trials and data, safety, efficacy etc have all been finalized?


 hey did u read my last post as to why we should push the FDA? theres a powerful group of HT docs called the HT mafia. and when they dont want to lose their profits to something like histogen, i'm sure theyll influence the FDA to "question" its safety and release.

----------


## Kiwi

> hey did u read my last post as to why we should push the FDA? theres a powerful group of HT docs called the HT mafia. and when they dont want to lose their profits to something like histogen, i'm sure theyll influence the FDA to "question" its safety and release.


 That's a good practical reason for f u c k heads on TBT to stop debating future treatments with their non science / non trained angles.

If anything we should make a site supporting histogen and aderans and promote it. 

And Id get behind Gho similarly if certain people agreed to keep the negative side of the arguing / debate / study to separate threads.

Ironman? What say you?

----------


## hellouser

> hey did u read my last post as to why we should push the FDA? theres a powerful group of HT docs called the HT mafia. and when they dont want to lose their profits to something like histogen, i'm sure theyll influence the FDA to "question" its safety and release.


 And they are *nothing* compared to the collective group of everyone else in the balding community. After Phase III trials are over there is no reason for further delays, Phase I proved safety years ago.

Its your duty as a citizen to squash bullshit from the 'mafia' eventhough you shouldnt have to have this duty. (utopian outlook). HT docs will still have jobs, they'll just have to adjust their business and this needs to happen; out with the old, in with the new.

I would not accept any release past 2015 from Aderans should the FDA stall them. I'd raise absolute hell.

----------


## garethbale

> Oh yeah and for the record everything new takes about 15 years to go through FDA approval no matter what.


 15 years ? Really ?

If that's the case why are Histogen / Replicel / Aderans mentioning release dates in the next few years?  I know they want to keep us interested but surely they would not give us these time frames if FDA approval took 15 years.

----------


## hellouser

> I'm laughing at your na&#239;vet&#233;, I wish us mere plebs could speed it up but we can't. It's American beauroracy. Ill tell you one thing - if you guys make the mistake of electing a red neck Christian whos opposed to stem cell research we're all ****ed!!!
> 
> God bless Obama voters.
> 
> *Oh yeah and for the record everything new takes about 15 years to go through FDA approval no matter what.*


 Completely false.

A quick look at wikipedia showed an average approval time for drugs of 7 years. Protests were done in the 80s/90s over HIV drugs to and some were given a pass only 2 years after.

Finasteride at 5mg was approved in 1992. At 1mg it was approved by 1997.

So, having said that... where did you come up with the 15 year long approval process?

More importantly:

*WHY ARE YOU SO PASSIVE ON AN ISSUE THATS CLEARLY IMPORTANT TO YOU?* <-- I really want an answer to that.

Its funny that some of you want a cure but will let the FDA steamroll over you and throw your arms in the air with defeat. 10 years have gone into Aderans research, I think the FDA is well stacked with enough data to prove its safety and efficacy. I'd expect this kind of passive behaviour and mentality from Canadians since they are major pussies when it comes to raising their voice against governing bodies, but I'm shocked to see this from Americans too.

----------


## Desmond84

> 15 years ? Really ?
> 
> If that's the case why are Histogen / Replicel / Aderans mentioning release dates in the next few years?  I know they want to keep us interested but surely they would not give us these time frames if FDA approval took 15 years.


 Yeah unfortunately Kiwi is right! Any novel approach to a new therapy takes around 10-15 years! 

Aderans started their studies back in 2002. They are now 11 years into proof of concept and approval process! With at least 2 more years to go!

Histogen started back in 2005! So they are now just over 8 years into their approval process. They expect to release in Asia in 2015 and USA in 2017 which still falls within the 10-15 year bracket!

I personally believe we are so lucky that its 2013 right now NOT 2002! We are way closer than those poor souls waiting on it back then!

- Lets just hope Histogen & Aderans can really show what they claim by June this year!

----------


## garethbale

> Yeah unfortunately Kiwi is right! Any novel approach to a new therapy takes around 10-15 years! 
> 
> Aderans started their studies back in 2002. They are now 11 years into proof of concept and approval process! With at least 2 more years to go!
> 
> Histogen started back in 2005! So they are now just over 8 years into their approval process. They expect to release in Asia in 2015 and USA in 2017 which still falls within the 10-15 year bracket!
> 
> I personally believe we are so lucky that its 2013 right now NOT 2002! We are way closer than those poor souls waiting on it back then!
> 
> - Lets just hope Histogen & Aderans can really show what they claim by June this year!


 
Hi Desmond

I don't engage in a lot of activity on here but I do read a lot of your posts with interest.  You seem to be quite knowledgeable on here so thanks for your input.

Can I ask why you seemed so negative on the Aderans thread yesterday?  I don't really understand what's going on with that one...

----------


## Desmond84

Hey Gareth  :Smile: 

What Aderans is said to be using is a type of cells called *DP* (Dermal Papillae)!

Now imagine a doorway where DHT floods into your hair and shrinks your follicles. This doorway is only found on DP cells on top of your scalp! That's right, the back of your head lacks this and therefore DHT has no impact on your donor area (hence the horse shoe pattern).

So what Aderans proposed to do back in 2002 was to grow these DP cells that are immune to DHT in the lab and then inject them into your miniaturised follicles.

This would practically make your hairs resistant to DHT and practically prevent you from having to take Propecia ever again.

Now unfortunately some how Dr. Nigam who's reputation is still on the line claimed last week he spoke to Dr Lauster and he informed him that Aderans gave up on the DP idea years ago and is only using stem cells!

This was such a SHOCK to us all that the forum kind of turned upside down (myself included). But after doing a bit more research the last few nights I think DP cells are still in Aderans and Nigam is just stirring us for some reason!

Again I'm really sorry for the breakdown yesterday! I'm just so sick of dealing with MPB just like all of you guys and hearing news like that really ripped me to shreds!  :Frown:

----------


## garethbale

> Hey Gareth 
> 
> What Aderans is said to be using is a type of cells called *DP* (Dermal Papillae)!
> 
> Now imagine a doorway where DHT floods into your hair and shrinks your follicles. This doorway is only found on DP cells on top of your scalp! That's right, the back of your head lacks this and therefore DHT has no impact on your donor area (hence the horse shoe pattern).
> 
> So what Aderans proposed to do back in 2002 was to grow these DP cells that are immune to DHT in the lab and then inject them into your miniaturised follicles.
> 
> This would practically make your hairs resistant to DHT and practically prevent you from having to take Propecia ever again.
> ...


 Ahhhh ok...thanks mate

Are stem cells of lesser quality to DP cells then?  Presumably they wouldn't yield as impressive a result.

I have read the Dr Nigam thread and cannot say I'm convinced at all by him, though I guess the more options available the better. I hope Aderans are pursuing the DP idea if this would make hair DHT immune, but I am getting quite impatient for a product to be launched.  I first started reading about all these novel breakthroughs (HM etc) in 2008 and 5 years on, am still waiting.  I might try to contact Aderans to ask what's happening.

No need to apologise for anything, you provide a lot of good info which I enjoy reading.

Btw is your username the year of your birth...if so you were born in the same year as me  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> Btw is your username the year of your birth...if so you were born in the same year as me


 Add me to the list of 1984 kids. George Orwell's book has also had an impact on my life too.... always taking everything with a grain of salt.

----------


## garethbale

> Add me to the list of 1984 kids. George Orwell's book has also had an impact on my life too.... always taking everything with a grain of salt.


 absolutely love that book...amazing!

----------


## hellouser

> Ahhhh ok...thanks mate
> 
> *Are stem cells of lesser quality to DP cells then?  Presumably they wouldn't yield as impressive a result.*
> 
> I have read the Dr Nigam thread and cannot say I'm convinced at all by him, though I guess the more options available the better. I hope Aderans are pursuing the DP idea if this would make hair DHT immune, but I am getting quite impatient for a product to be launched.  I first started reading about all these novel breakthroughs (HM etc) in 2008 and 5 years on, am still waiting.  I might try to contact Aderans to ask what's happening.


 I'm curious about this too!

----------


## Desmond84

> Ahhhh ok...thanks mate
> 
> Are stem cells of lesser quality to DP cells then?  Presumably they wouldn't yield as impressive a result.
> 
> I have read the Dr Nigam thread and cannot say I'm convinced at all by him, though I guess the more options available the better. I hope Aderans are pursuing the DP idea if this would make hair DHT immune, but I am getting quite impatient for a product to be launched.  I first started reading about all these novel breakthroughs (HM etc) in 2008 and 5 years on, am still waiting.  I might try to contact Aderans to ask what's happening.
> 
> No need to apologise for anything, you provide a lot of good info which I enjoy reading.
> 
> Btw is your username the year of your birth...if so you were born in the same year as me


 LOL really! yep 1984 it is  :Wink: 

With regards to the stem cells, Dr Costralis (who is EPIC btw) did major studies on it for over 3 years and published his findings in 2010. He found that  your stem cells are completely intact in balding areas! The signals to turn them on is lacking! So if they decide to go down the stem cell path there is most probably no improvement in hair density what so ever!

----------


## garethbale

> LOL really! yep 1984 it is 
> 
> With regards to the stem cells, Dr Costralis (who is EPIC btw) did major studies on it for over 3 years and published his findings in 2010. He found that  your stem cells are completely intact in balding areas! The signals to turn them on is lacking! So if they decide to go down the stem cell path there is most probably no improvement in hair density what so ever!


 Really?  

If Aderans were moving to stem cells that doesn't seem to make an awful lot of sense. I mean, if their results would be poor it would soon be pretty obvious that this was not a great treatment and I imagine people wouldn't pay for it.

I have read a bit on Adreans and one thing they don't seem to lack is money.  Funding for lab work can't be a major problem for them.

On the one hand I want them to release a product that will give a real improvement, yet on the other I just want them to hurry up and release _something_!

----------


## Desmond84

They will definitely have something out in 2015! 

What it's potentials are as a new therapy will be announced in June this year! 

It's just a matter of waiting and remaining positive!  :Cool:

----------


## hellouser

> They will definitely have something out in 2015! 
> 
> What it's potentials are as a new therapy will be announced in June this year! 
> 
> It's just a matter of waiting and remaining positive!


 Party at my house in June. Everyones invited.

----------


## garethbale

> Party at my house in June. Everyones invited.


 As long as it can prevent more hairloss or give decent regrowth that would be good.  I still have most of my hair but need to fill my hairline in and I don't want to go for a HT.

If and when this does come to fruition I think we should all meet up and have a massive drinking session, the bender of all benders...London...New York...i don't mind :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> As long as it can prevent more hairloss or give decent regrowth that would be good.  I still have most of my hair but need to fill my hairline in and I don't want to go for a HT.
> 
> If and when this does come to fruition I think we should all meet up and have a massive drinking session, the bender of all benders...London...New York...i don't mind


 New York I'll definitely come to, I'm only about an 8 hour drive away. I'd definitely like to meet up and share some happiness.

I'm in the same boat; I don't want an HT either, but will be going for one with Gho and waiting for Aderans as well for a permanent halt at least, if they can get that done, I'll be ecstatic. My hair isn't so thin that anyone would point it out, but my hairline is what bothers me most... having a gigantic looking forehead sucks (and oddly enough its much worse in pictures).

I've mentioned this before but I'd really like to see a community effort push the FDA to give Aderans the green light shortly after their Phase III trials. We *need* to do something.

----------


## john2399

> They will definitely have something out in 2015! 
> 
> What it's potentials are as a new therapy will be announced in June this year! 
> 
> It's just a matter of waiting and remaining positive!


 If and when they do release aderans...what is the price range for this treatment...someone said 15 grand before...would anyone really pay 15 grand for this ?

----------


## hellouser

> If and when they do release aderans...what is the price range for this treatment...someone said 15 grand before...would anyone really pay 15 grand for this ?


 I'd pay double. Self esteem, confidence, happiness, socially accepted physical appearance has no price tag to me.

15k I'd be happy with. Considering there isn't much work involved, it shouldn't cost more than 15k or even more than 10k.

How much would you pay?

----------


## john2399

> I'd pay double. Self esteem, confidence, happiness, socially accepted physical appearance has no price tag to me.
> 
> 15k I'd be happy with. Considering there isn't much work involved, it shouldn't cost more than 15k or even more than 10k.
> 
> How much would you pay?


 id pay 15 grand if it will be able to grow a good amount of hair. If it only stops further hairloss with minimal hairgrowth, id pay 5k-7k.

----------


## Desmond84

> If and when they do release aderans...what is the price range for this treatment...someone said 15 grand before...would anyone really pay 15 grand for this ?


 Price tag will depend on what it can achieve.

$15,000 is a lot of money to simply provide slight regrowth! If they can do what they claim (DHT immune follicles) then may be it is.

Remember $15,000 will be for early MPB, the more advanced your hair loss the cheaper it will be since less area will be treated!

----------


## Kiwi

> Price tag will depend on what it can achieve.
> 
> $15,000 is a lot of money to simply provide slight regrowth! If they can do what they claim (DHT immune follicles) then may be it is.
> 
> Remember $15,000 will be for early MPB, the more advanced your hair loss the cheaper it will be since less area will be treated!


 $15K... For guaranteed slight hair growth and the halting of future loss? 

Done!

----------


## koolx

> Its your duty as a citizen to squash bullshit from the 'mafia' eventhough you shouldnt have to have this duty. (utopian outlook). HT docs will still have jobs, they'll just have to adjust their business and this needs to happen; out with the old, in with the new.
> 
> I would not accept any release past 2015 from Aderans should the FDA stall them. I'd raise absolute hell.


 i agree. we should really push the FDA into eariler release of aderans and histogen. seriously, its about time.




> A quick look at wikipedia showed an average approval time for drugs of 7 years. Protests were done in the 80s/90s over HIV drugs to and some were given a pass only 2 years after.
> 
> Finasteride at 5mg was approved in 1992. At 1mg it was approved by 1997.
> 
> I'd expect this kind of passive behaviour and mentality from Canadians since they are major pussies when it comes to raising their voice against governing bodies, but I'm shocked to see this from Americans too.


 youre absolutely right about the FDA expediting drugs in the past due to public outcries. even though its not a life/death issue, balding is a serious medical issue can destroy not just the individual "diseased" with it, but his relationships also. 

u said that 5mg finasteride was approved in '92 but 1mg was approved in '97? i think u got the yrs mixed up.

and i agree about the americans being passive. americans are slow and not smart. if this were france, spain, korea or england, this med wouldve been out yrs ago. even cuba is faster to bringing a med out than the FDA.




> Add me to the list of 1984 kids. George Orwell's book has also had an impact on my life too.... always taking everything with a grain of salt.


 ahhh.. 1984.. the best year of the gen xer's.. duran duran, punk, robotech, gi joe.. lol. i loved that year.




> I'm in the same boat; I don't want an HT either, but will be going for one with Gho and waiting for Aderans as well for a permanent halt at least, if they can get that done, I'll be ecstatic. My hair isn't so thin that anyone would point it out, but my hairline is what bothers me most... having a gigantic looking forehead sucks (and oddly enough its much worse in pictures).
> 
> I've mentioned this before but I'd really like to see a community effort push the FDA to give Aderans the green light shortly after their Phase III trials. We *need* to do something.


 i'm in a similar boat.. i got hair all over but my hairline is fu'cking with me. i'm not bald but i'm thinning a bit which is a bitch to comb to make sure it looks thick. 

and i agree about pushing the *F*u'ckin*D*umb*A*gency for aderans and histogen. but we got to make a concerted effort. every single day that passes by means more permanent shedding of hairs that wont grow back.

----------


## SoClose

How would we go about "rallying" the FDA? Petition? I'm clueless as to how this business works.

----------


## 534623

> i agree about pushing the *F*u'ckin*D*umb*A*gency for aderans and histogen. but we got to make a concerted effort. every single day that passes by means *more permanent shedding of hairs that wont grow back*.


 I do not agree, because the same will happen after FDA approval.

----------


## 2020

> They will definitely have something out in 2015! 
> 
> What it's potentials are as a new therapy will be announced in June this year! 
> 
> It's just a matter of waiting and remaining positive!


 ... can you name any other cosmetic or other treatment that became available EXACTLY as it was done finishing its phase 3 studies OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES?

----------


## gmonasco

> How would we go about "rallying" the FDA?


 Threaten that you'll boycott them and take your business to another federal agency (like the ATF or BLM) instead.

----------


## Kiwi

> ... can you name any other cosmetic or other treatment that became available EXACTLY as it was done finishing its phase 3 studies OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES?


 Can you name any that havent? 

(i just want to see you waste your time collating all that data - because the people on this particular thread don't care about your non thread related blah) 

So. Go on. Name some that havent mate? We reeeeeeallllly give a s h i t.

----------


## hellouser

> How would we go about "rallying" the FDA? Petition? I'm clueless as to how this business works.


 Its not really a business, the FDA is a governing body. You go about it by tapping into every resource possible and basically calling them out on as large scale as possible.... basically making them look really bad.

Get in touch with local, provincial/state tv news, radio, local and national newspapers, bloggers (yes, even them), get spencer to spread the word through his own connections, run campaigns via facebook, twitter, setup a website and keep it active, create videos sharing life struggles, depression, anxiety, stress, etc..... tell a story people can connect with, reach out to politicians who have other connections, organize an actually outdoor rally RIGHT IN FRONT of the FDA's head office, leave handouts, get physical signed petitions (e-petitions are worthless)... etc. etc. etc.

Its not a 'one route' rally.... you basically have to cover all areas and gain the media's attention and for them to spread the publicity. If its done *right*, it could go national or even international. Think of how many stupid internet campaigns exist... like the kids who asked for 1million votes to get a PS3 or something.

I work in graphic design, marketing and web development, I'm basically the go-to guy for anything creative at my current job, which is why I also know photography quite well as I've explained before the difficulties in getting consistent photographs from Aderans/Histogen showing their results. I'm more than willing to get the ball rolling on an awareness campaign and get the FDA to give Aderans the green light soon after Phase III next year but ONLY if there are others who are willing to put in the time doing this. 

Basically we'd need to start off with a name, logo and mission statement. Then gather information, content, video etc. Make a website, put everything together. Then make facebook & twitter accounts to tap into social media. Then you need to make the right phone calls to the right people. I rallied 2 years alongside Jack Layton but it was only possible when me and my friends made enough phone calls and got on the news that he noticed us. Its not hard work, its just tedious stuff that requires a lot of strategy and planning.

If anyone wants to go through with this, lets start a new thread and see what we can do as a community and get our hair back ON TIME from Aderans without the FDA screwing us over.

----------


## Desmond84

> ... can you name any other cosmetic or other treatment that became available EXACTLY as it was done finishing its phase 3 studies OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES?


 No! They won't have to!

Phase 2 finishes in April 2013.

If they stick to their plans, Phase 3 should start in Sep-Oct 2013. 

Phase 3 will be a 12 month trial + 2-3 months of data analysis. (i.e. Phase 3 completion date ~ Jan 2015)

They would then apply for FDA approval which generally takes 8-10 mnths.

This would mean, Ji Gami can be available in clinics across USA by *November 2015!*

----------


## 534623

> They would then apply for FDA approval which generally takes 8-10 mnths.
> 
> This would mean, Ji Gami can be available in clinics across USA by *November 2015!*


 And then - what? 
A full head of hair again?

----------


## Desmond84

LMAO Iron_Man! Where did u find that LOL

Maybe so...Maybe so! 

- Fingers Crossed

----------


## 534623

> LMAO Iron_Man! Where did u find that LOL


 The analogy is - the big hole in the ceiling the guy in the video is looking at, is like seeing the tonsure area after you got Histogen or Aderans injections.

So perhaps you (and your girlfriend) will react in a similar way many month after injections...  :Embarrassment:

----------


## 2020

> No! They won't have to!
> 
> Phase 2 finishes in April 2013.


 http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm




> If they stick to their plans, Phase 3 should start in Sep-Oct 2013. 
> 
> Phase 3 will be a 12 month trial + 2-3 months of data analysis. (i.e. Phase 3 completion date ~ Jan 2015)


 that's in ABSOLUTE best case scenario. Didn't they themselves say to add another two years? So that would mean 2017?




> They would then apply for FDA approval which generally takes 8-10 mnths.


 fine




> This would mean, Ji Gami can be available in clinics across USA by *November 2015!*


 this is what I'm talking about. Let's say they have this all figured out and working in some lab in Singapore. Ok how long do you imagine it would take for independent clinics to start training on people on using that stuff, advertising etc...

----------


## 2020

> And then - what? 
> A full head of hair again?

----------


## Breaking Bald

> this is what I'm talking about. Let's say they have this all figured out and working in some lab in Singapore. Ok how long do you imagine it would take for independent clinics to start training on people on using that stuff, advertising etc...


 Well I don't think it would take very long to train people, considering they will basically just be injections. However, I have to agree that Desmond is overly optimistic.

Did you watch the Bald Truth Show Desmond, you were kind of getting slated pretty badly by Joe.

We need more info from Histogen, all we can do is wait. There is no point in being overly optimistic or pessimistic for that matter. I'm trying to stay neutral.

----------


## garethbale

> Well I don't think it would take very long to train people, considering they will basically just be injections. However, I have to agree that Desmond is overly optimistic.
> 
> Did you watch the Bald Truth Show Desmond, you were kind of getting slated pretty badly by Joe.
> 
> We need more info from Histogen, all we can do is wait. There is no point in being overly optimistic or pessimistic for that matter. I'm trying to stay neutral.


 The logistics, advertising and administration of it is something these companies will have to think about.  If guys are queuing up to have this done, they will need to consider how it will be streamlined.

Then again I bet 99% of balding guys have never even heard of Histogen/Aderans/Replicel, I would even include guys that actively fight their hairloss.

----------


## hellouser

> The logistics, advertising and administration of it is something these companies will have to think about.  If guys are queuing up to have this done, they will need to consider how it will be streamlined.
> 
> *Then again I bet 99% of balding guys have never even heard of Histogen/Aderans/Replicel, I would even include guys that actively fight their hairloss.*


 This is true. I spoke to some friends of mine who have noticed their balding situation and have addressed it in only the most pointless methods of all; no Finasteride, Minox, no RU, no CB, no Saw Palmetto, No Nizoral... nothing. The only thing they know of is the over the counter crap that sells in shampoo bottles that says 'growth stimulant' I mean, they *have* taken the first step but thats as far as they come.

I wont be too surprised if all of us here on the forums would be amongst the first to have a procedure done.

I have a feeling that lineups for a procedure will become long once the word gets out about. Of course, the media will help too depending how much of a craze they push.... but lets be honest, theyre more concerned over Beyonce singing at the Super Bowl than anything health related.

So, good news for us at least.... I think us, the guys that put a SOLID effort into fighting hairloss and helping eachother out are amongst the most deserving to be put FIRST on the list.

----------


## 534623

> We need more info from Histogen


 Can someone do me a favor, please?

http://youtu.be/V64ht1r8APo

starting at 02:00>>what exactly is Dr. Cotsarelis saying in this video?

He is talking about a "combination". Combination of WHAT exactly created the hairs on the mouse's back - and what's the reason why you shouldn't try this at home?

And finally, what has this to do with Histogen, Histogen's presentation at the ISHRS meeting and finally, Dr. Cole's report? I will tell you this thereafter... :Smile:

----------


## Kirby_

> Did you watch the Bald Truth Show Desmond, you were kind of getting slated pretty badly by Joe.


 Really? That doesn't sound pleasant...




> This is true. I spoke to some friends of mine who have noticed their balding situation and have addressed it in only the most pointless methods of all; no Finasteride, Minox, no RU, no CB, no Saw Palmetto, No Nizoral... nothing. The only thing they know of is the over the counter crap that sells in shampoo bottles that says 'growth stimulant' I mean, they *have* taken the first step but thats as far as they come.


 Hah, so true! I know what you mean, they are worried about hair loss but only use crap like Alpecin, or the expensive Nourkrin vitamin tablets and topicals from Boots the Chemists. Which (the worst part) makes them believe that there are no actual 'real' hair loss treatments...

----------


## Thinning87

> Can someone do me a favor, please?
> 
> http://youtu.be/V64ht1r8APo
> 
> starting at 02:00>>what exactly is Dr. Cotsarelis saying in this video?
> 
> He is talking about a "combination". Combination of WHAT exactly created the hairs on the mouse's back - and what's the reason why you shouldn't try this at home?
> 
> And finally, what has this to do with Histogen, Histogen's presentation at the ISHRS meeting and finally, Dr. Cole's report? I will tell you this thereafter...


 tell us now although i fear it's bad news

----------


## 534623

> tell us now although i fear it's bad news


 No, actually -no. The "key" is actually what Dr. Cotsarelis is saying in the video.
So what exactly is he (the speaker-lady mentioned this too before Cots) saying concerning the "combination"?

----------


## Thinning87

to not try it at home...?

----------


## 534623

> to not try it at home...?


 Right - but why? 
What exactly is needed to get this to work? What exactly do they say?

----------


## Desmond84

@2020 

Hey dude,

I think there's a bit of confusion about what product I was referring to!

Garethbale asked me about Aderans (in Histogen thread) so I said 2015! Histogen will most definitely NOT be available in US by 2015! That's without the doubt!

Here's what Gareth was asking b4 I answered his question  :Smile: 




> Really?  
> 
> If Aderans were moving to stem cells that doesn't seem to make an awful lot of sense. I mean, if their results would be poor it would soon be pretty obvious that this was not a great treatment and I imagine people wouldn't pay for it.
> 
> I have read a bit on Adreans and one thing they don't seem to lack is money.  Funding for lab work can't be a major problem for them.
> 
> On the one hand I want them to release a product that will give a real improvement, yet on the other I just want them to hurry up and release _something_!

----------


## Desmond84

> Well I don't think it would take very long to train people, considering they will basically just be injections. However, I have to agree that Desmond is overly optimistic.
> 
> Did you watch the Bald Truth Show Desmond, you were kind of getting slated pretty badly by Joe.
> 
> We need more info from Histogen, all we can do is wait. There is no point in being overly optimistic or pessimistic for that matter. I'm trying to stay neutral.


 Hey BreakingBald  :Smile: 

He mentioned me in the show! wow! R u serious!

I'll be listening to it and give you my opinion!

----------


## Thinning87

> Right - but why? 
> What exactly is needed to get this to work? What exactly do they say?


 Ok i'm gonna pass out if you wanna let us know the key to this mystery please write it down and I will read it tomorrow morning.

Good night folks!

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys,

Does anyone have the link to this weeks show? Apparently Joe was discussing what's been happening on the forum! 

Cheers

----------


## koolx

> @2020 
> Garethbale asked me about Aderans (in Histogen thread) so I said 2015! Histogen will most definitely NOT be available in US by 2015!


 again according to the spencer interview in november 2012 histogen will be released in the us by 2017.

----------


## 534623

> Ok i'm gonna pass out if you wanna let us know the key to this mystery please write it down and I will read it tomorrow morning.
> 
> Good night folks!


 Why should I explain something when guys are not even able to post THE *2 words* from the video?

----------


## UK Boy

> Why should I explain something when guys are not even able to post THE *2 words* from the video?


 This is what's winding me up with your posts Ironman - why're you doing this whole thing with making people 'tell you stuff'? You wanna make some comment just make it already! But just to stop this stupidness - he says it's the combination of injuring and a compound. But why are you bringing this up? That was Follica's approach - Follica's dead! Are you saying that Histogen needs to injure the scalp and then apply HSC?

----------


## 534623

> - he says *it's the combination of injuring and a compound*. But why are you bringing this up? That was Follica's approach - Follica's dead!


 Thanks - I just wanted to hear this from another user. Okay, now back to my questions:



> Can someone do me a favor, please?
> 
> http://youtu.be/V64ht1r8APo
> 
> starting at 02:00>>what exactly is Dr. Cotsarelis saying in this video?
> 
> He is talking about a "combination". Combination of WHAT exactly created the hairs on the mouse's back - and what's the reason why you shouldn't try this at home?
> 
> And finally, 1) *what has this to do with Histogen*, 2) Histogen's presentation at the ISHRS meeting and finally, 3) Dr. Cole's report? I will tell you this thereafter...


 1) Histogen is BASED ON everything what Dr. Cotsarelis is talking about in this (posted) video. That's simply a fact, and Histogen mention this in their papers, presentations etc.
1a) Histogen just produces the mentioned "compound" (HSC=hair stimulating complex) in their labs, which _can_ improve such results as Dr. Cotsarelis got them in his mouse-study with a similar COMPOUND (Wnt's based etc) - in addition to WOUNDING (=*full thickness wound*) of the skin.

2/3) This threads TOPIC:
Dr. Cole reported in a video, that she, Dr. Gail Naughton, mentioned at the meeting something like "HSC can even grow hair in 'scar tissue'!" and Dr. Cole said something like (not 1:1 transcript!)  "If this stuff works so great even in scar tissue - why there is the need to show us pics with lots of hairs in the BEFORE photos??" - or something - right?
Anyway, I think this has been a misunderstanding at the meeting, and Dr. Naughton meant actually "This stuff could produce/helped growth of hairs even in WOUNDS" - and thought about their own mouse-studies and Dr. Cotsarelis findings. Period. There is simply a difference between freshly created full thickness WOUNDS and old SCAR TISSUE.

And now the easy to understand point:
Without FULL THICKNESS WOUNDING, und just injecting such stuff into the skin, this works just like injection of water or cat piss into the skin - USELESS for creating brand new mini-organs like hair follicles or "rejuvenation" of existing hair follicle structures, simply because this "window", as mentioned by Dr. Cotsarelis in his study, doesn't happen/exist with just injectioning such stuff. This is well known among research-scientists. This "window" just happens in the event of "full thickness wounding" and works better or not at all "species-related" - among lots of other different conditions. In simple words - Histogen's HSC, is just based on "hot air" and that's THE reason why they can't show you any LEGIT photos since so many years.

----------


## Thinning87

Ok so all this fuzz for this post above? Your speculations and deductions don't affect those of us who have decided to remain cautiously optimistic. We'll see what happens with Histogen, few of us expected the ultimate cure, most of us were hoping for some better version of Rogaine to hang on to our hair for a few years, hopefully with less Finasteride.

----------


## rdawg

> btw, WHERE ARE THE FUC"KIN PICS!!!!!!!!!


 not coming, they'll give us more by around march/april final IIa results.

----------


## LMS

> not coming, they'll give us more by around march/april final IIa results.


 wait so histogen is on phase 2a? inb4 there start phase 2b to iron out some kinks.

forever waiting.

goodnight sweet hairs.

goodnight aesthetics

----------


## 534623

> is this proven to work on the temples/hairline?


 Sure. Histogen says HSC can even grow brand new hairs in scar tissue...

http://youtu.be/khVm4wSpzjo

...so why not on the temples/hairline, where there is no scar tissue? 
I mean, perhaps it doesn't work for you, perhaps not for me and perhaps for nobody, but it has at least the potential to work for somebody or something - like Propecia or TRX-2.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Sure. Histogen says HSC can even grow brand new hairs in scar tissue...
> 
> http://youtu.be/khVm4wSpzjo
> 
> ...so why not on the temples/hairline, where there is no scar tissue? 
> I mean, perhaps it doesn't work for you, perhaps not for me and perhaps for nobody, but it has at least the potential to work for somebody or something - like Propecia or TRX-2.


 In their last trail they stated that it for sure works on the temples.

----------


## Kiwi

> In their last trail they stated that it for sure works on the temples.


 Ignore ironman - he can't remove his nose from Gho's anus. All he does is diss EVERYThING else.

----------


## hellouser

> In their last trail they stated that it for sure works on the temples.


 They also provided photographs as well, there was a HUGE response on the hairlosshelp forums praising Histogen for their achievements. I don't remember the density of the temple regrowth... this was also a while back so they could have only made greater progress since. Hard to turn down Histogen at that point.

----------


## 534623

> Hard to turn down Histogen at that point.


 Hard? Not at all. How many points do you need? 
Are there other scientists who support Histogen's claims?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Hard? Not at all. How many points do you need? 
> Are there other scientists who support Histogen's claims?


 Ironman...go eat a bowl of dicks

----------


## FearTheLoss

There was obvious photographic evidence that it worked in the temple region. 

Also, dr. ziering is a very well respected doctor who isn't going to ruin his reputation by lying to the hair loss community. He has nothing to gain by lying. With that being said, we just need to see what histogen releases this april and I think then we will know for sure which way they are headed.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Hard? Not at all. How many points do you need? 
> Are there other scientists who support Histogen's claims?


 Why is it exactly that you are SO against Histogen? When we really don't know that much about their progress.

----------


## 534623

> Also, dr. ziering is a very well respected doctor who isn't going to ruin his reputation by lying to the hair loss community.


 Sure, that's the reason why he mentioned recently in Spencers show  "I didn't present at the ISHRS meeting...I'm not responsible for what has been said and  presented at the meeting ..."

In simple words - he said he has nothing to do with all the bullcrap - he is "guiltless". What a shame.

----------


## Breaking Bald

What is your problem Ironman? Other than being a miserable, cynical 50 year old man I mean.

----------


## Kirby_

> What is your problem Ironman? Other than being a miserable, cynical 50 year old man I mean.


 Have you ever met any Austrians? They're _all_ as mad as a box of frogs.

----------


## garethbale

> Hard? Not at all. How many points do you need? 
> Are there other scientists who support Histogen's claims?


 Err...how many scientists support Gho's claims?

----------


## UK_

Iron_Man has been eating too many frankfurters again.

----------


## Kirby_

Wiener würstchen, more accurately.  :Smile:

----------


## Breaking Bald

lolololol this is exactly how I picture Ironman in my head:

----------


## Scientalk56

Well maybe i don't agree with iron-man / 56968(numbers)
But i think he has the right to express his opinions too, since he's also a member who share the same concerns (baldness)...

Just a thought..

----------


## Jasari

Not sure why some people on a hairloss website no less, are opposed to a new treatment showing documented regrowth.

It's quite funny, it seems like some people have this football team mentality with hairloss, where they want to be right about a specific treatment being the right one to cure hairloss. It's ridiculous, I couldn't care less about who comes out with what as long as it works.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Well maybe i don't agree with iron-man / 56968(numbers)
> But i think he has the right to express his opinions too, since he's also a member who share the same concerns (baldness)...
> 
> Just a thought..


 Well...yeah of course he does. But does he have to express his views in a constantly sarcastic, rude, stubborn, insulting, unjustified and patronising way? No. He's an asshole.

----------


## UK_

> Well maybe i don't agree with iron-man / 56968(numbers)
> But i think he has the right to express his opinions too, since he's also a member who share the same concerns (baldness)...
> 
> Just a thought..


 The guy is a known troll on practically every hair loss forum in existence.

----------


## garethbale

> Well maybe i don't agree with iron-man / 56968(numbers)
> But i think he has the right to express his opinions too, since he's also a member who share the same concerns (baldness)...
> 
> Just a thought..


 I'm relatively new to this forum but it didn't take long to cross paths with him.

Say anything remotely questioning Gho and he tries to shoot you down for it, yet he trolls every other thread with hie garbage, offering no reasoned debate whatsoever.  Of course anyone here has the right to express their opinions but he just speaks to people in a rude, patronising way.  Half his comments make no sense or are not written in proper context to address a point...plus he needlessly writes certain words in capitals which comes across as very condescending.  (The capital letters particularly annoy me for some reason  :Smile: )

The guy is a just a massive tw@t!

----------


## 534623

> Not sure why some people on a hairloss website no less,
>  are opposed to a new treatment *showing documented regrowth*.


 Concerning Histogen - *they documented zero, zilch, nada!*
I'm the one who documented their presented pics:



_pffffft..._ they presented photos of just 2 trail subjects, whereby subject *S2018* just shows a completely normal hairy and cycling area...
... and *S1016* doesn't even show the same area!!

S2018: IF this stuff is working so "significantly" and is able to "reverse" balding or to keep hairs in ANAGEN (growth phase) ...

- why disappeared so many hairs at all?
- why there are suddenly so many thinner hairs in the after photo?
- can YOU see +35.88% more hairs?? I can clearly see rather the contrary...

In simple words, what they presented, is simply scientific misconduct. And everbody who supports such a behavior - is also a gangster. Because such a behavior just provides more room for other gangsters in this field; namely, the "nothing can happen to me" attitude.

----------


## Thinning87

> Well...yeah of course he does. But does he have to express his views in a constantly sarcastic, rude, stubborn, insulting, unjustified and patronising way? No. He's an asshole.


 I quote every word.

----------


## Kiwi

> lolololol this is exactly how i picture ironman in my head:


 lmfao!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Desmond84

I wanna see 2020 take on Iron_Man in a rap battle! 

Now that's worth watching LOL

----------


## Desmond84

> lolololol this is exactly how I picture Ironman in my head:


 I kind of feel bad for laughing at this post! LOL

----------


## 2020

> Concerning Histogen - *they documented zero, zilch, nada!*


 they're idiots, true, but the concept of using growth factors to regrow hair should work. Rogaine works mainly by upregulating VEGF. Histogen does that and more so it should regrow at least as much as rogaine...

----------


## 534623

> they're idiots, true, but the concept of using *growth factors* to regrow hair should work. Rogaine works mainly by upregulating VEGF. Histogen does that and more so it should regrow at least as much as rogaine...


 How many differerent GROWTH FACTORS...

...is this scientist using in his post?

I count 16 - just in this post.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## 2020

what are you talking about?

"HSC is currently being developed and evaluated as an injectable for hair growth. The embryonic-like proteins and growth factors within the complex, including follistatin, VEGF and KGF, have been shown to both stimulate resting hair follicles to produce new hair, as well as induce stem cells in the scalp to form new follicles."

How do you think rogaine works? Explain

----------


## Kiwi

> what are you talking about?
> 
> "HSC is currently being developed and evaluated as an injectable for hair growth. The embryonic-like proteins and growth factors within the complex, including follistatin, VEGF and KGF, have been shown to both stimulate resting hair follicles to produce new hair, as well as induce stem cells in the scalp to form new follicles."
> 
> How do you think rogaine works? Explain


 2020 has come over to the light side of the force!!!

----------


## UK_

> How many differerent GROWTH FACTORS...
> 
> ...is this scientist using in his post?
> 
> I count 16 - just in this post.


 Give it a rest, you're boring everyone.

----------


## Jasari

> Concerning Histogen - *they documented zero, zilch, nada!*
> I'm the one who documented their presented pics:
> 
> 
> 
> _pffffft..._ they presented photos of just 2 trail subjects, whereby subject *S2018* just shows a completely normal hairy and cycling area...
> ... and *S1016* doesn't even show the same area!!
> 
> S2018: IF this stuff is working so "significantly" and is able to "reverse" balding or to keep hairs in ANAGEN (growth phase) ...
> ...


 To be blunt, I honestly don't give a crap about over analysing a particular treatment. Those pictures are 100% irrelevant. At the end of the day the product is estimated to come out in 2-3 years. Either it does or it doesn't.

The people working on it know far more about hair loss than anyone on these forums, and all we can do is wait for something to hopefully come out sooner rather than later. At the end of the day, nobody wants to be spending their mortgage on continual GHO treatments or the like.

----------


## 534623

> The people working on it know far more about hair loss than anyone on these forums...


 Are you sure?
I have checked them out - NONE of them has ever published a hair research paper. Maybe I'm wrong.

----------


## Kiwi

> Are you sure?
> I have checked them out - NONE of them has ever published a hair research paper. Maybe I'm wrong.


 You're such a dick man. My turn in Gho forums  :Smile:

----------


## UK Boy

http://www.utsandiego.com/video/play/48502/
Just found this over on Hairsite. Haven't been able to listen to it myself yet but from what I've read Gail talks about timelines - 2016 for US release and possibly a year before for other parts of the world. It's good to hear it cos it's from Gail herself and because it's a recent estimation so should be in keeping with their current progress. I honestly think I can hold on til 2015/16. If the release in Asia is only going to be a year before the Western world I might just wait for it to come here, it'd be a lot easier.

----------


## hellouser

> You're such a dick man. My turn in Gho forums


 Can the two of you rent a hotel room? The forum is tired of your infatuation.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> http://www.utsandiego.com/video/play/48502/


 Great post UK Boy!!! If everything she is saying is true -and I don't see why wouldn't be- then that is awesome news!  :Cool:

----------


## 534623

> http://www.utsandiego.com/video/play/48502/


 Starting at 04:30>>>> what is she saying about the success after 12 weeks? 

Should I send the blonde in the video my analysis?   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Starting at 04:30>>>> what is she saying about the success after 12 weeks? 
> 
> Should I send the blonde in the video my analysis?


 Supposedly that within 12 weeks there is new hair even after 1 set of injections that stays there for at least a year. What don't you understand?

Ironman...no one cares about your analysis.

----------


## nativer

Where are the pics of the hot girls, so I can join this jerk off fest.  

47 of pages of B.S.  on theories and what not...   

I'm starting a school, and if you spend 1 month on a hairloss forum you get a honorary degree in organic chem

----------


## 534623

> Ironman...no one cares about your analysis.


 Are you sure? How about the following analysis ...

http://youtu.be/khVm4wSpzjo 
********************************
When Dr. Cole returned from the Bahamas, he told me about the Histogen presentation he attended there. He was unimpressed because of the before and after images. Many of you are familiar with the strategy of obscuring details with a photo flash in before images and presenting the after images without photo flash. This of course should be avoided at all costs, especially if you are trying to promote a breakthrough medical technology. This statement should not be taken to imply that representatives of Histogen deliberately presented misleading photo evidence of hair growth. On the other hand if you ever present a medical breakthrough to a sophisticated audience like doctors, by all means present the highest quality images available.
Here is the link to Histogen's PDF they have posted:

http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._HSC_Final.pdf

Now this PDF is really a huge pixel dimension document. When opened and rasterized in PhotoShop, it reveals some relatively large dimension before and after images. To many people PhotoShop is synonymous with photo fakery. That is not necessarily the case. PhotoShop CAN be used to fake photos, but the newer versions have advanced technology that can find pixels obscured by a flash for instance. So PhotoShop has some very important and legitimate uses.

Histogen may very well be a breakthrough product, but Dr. Cole was unimpressed with the presentation because of the photo flash on the before images. On the bottom left image, I was able to correct the pixel contrast on the original before photo (From the PDF) and allow hair to become visible using "Shadow Highlight" that was obscured by the flash in the before. This is a good example of how a before image could be enhanced to look better than an after image.

Men with hair loss should always be skeptical of doctors whose "before" images have a bright flash indicated by a bright white area of scalp and the after images show an accurate scalp coloration.

********************************

----------


## 2020

what I've heard:

Two independently controlled trials.
Within 12 weeks, statistically significant new amount of new mature hairs started growing.
New hair continues to grow up to a year with one set of injections.

Interviewer starts saying that she's happy that it works for women too - Gail corrects her - "it works EXTREMELY well for women"...

okay.... still, their pictures are awful and their 2016 US date is way too early given the current progress she showed us.

We will have self-driving cars within the next 5 years... Someone get google to start working on this shit. It's probably worth just as much.

Iron_man, why aren't you talking about their newly released Regenica? It's very unlikely for Histogen to try and scam us all... Pictures are definitely real. Poor results, but definitely real.

----------


## hellouser

I dont care how much bickering goes on in this forum, but I am super stoked about Histogen and Aderans coming up within the next few years.

----------


## 534623

> We will have self-driving cars within the next 5 years...


 No. My new (IronMan-)car is currently built in Ohio, United States. And I still have to wait for it around 2-3 years…

http://youtu.be/vOI7Odt4mYo 

http://youtu.be/B0lIuS-P2a4 

But guess what – I still must drive it myself… :Frown:

----------


## 2020

Iron_man what are you talking about? I'm simply pointing out how incompetent and slow medical industry is... maybe we should take everyone from Google, Facebook, Microsoft and put them to work on this. Everything would be cured within the decade guaranteed...

----------


## 534623

> Iron_man what are you talking about? I'm simply pointing out how incompetent and slow medical industry is... maybe we should take everyone from Google, Facebook, Microsoft and put them to work on this. Everything would be cured within the decade guaranteed...


 I know what you mean. I think it's -in general- too risky for researchers to look "too deep" into this very complex "hair-follicle-biology-thingy". It simply costs them too much time and money. And the other obstacle is, that too many (sometimes really useless) scientists out there block each other via an increasing number of "hairloss-cure-patents". I think most scientists out there are simply not motivated enough. But I also think that most of them completely ignore a very important point:
IF you completely understand hair follicle biology and if you're able to influence or to cure this or that within this biology - you WILL also be able to understand and to cure many other (far more important, but much more difficult to study!) organs and diseases in the body. The latter is THE reason why I really like hair science.

----------


## Kiwi

> are you sure? How about the following analysis ...
> 
> http://youtu.be/khvm4wspzjo 
> ********************************
> when dr. Cole returned from the bahamas, he told me about the histogen presentation he attended there. He was unimpressed because of the before and after images. Many of you are familiar with the strategy of obscuring details with a photo flash in before images and presenting the after images without photo flash. This of course should be avoided at all costs, especially if you are trying to promote a breakthrough medical technology. This statement should not be taken to imply that representatives of histogen deliberately presented misleading photo evidence of hair growth. On the other hand if you ever present a medical breakthrough to a sophisticated audience like doctors, by all means present the highest quality images available.
> Here is the link to histogen's pdf they have posted:
> 
> http://www.histogen.com/downloads/si..._hsc_final.pdf
> 
> ...


 who cares what dr cole has to say?!?!?!?!?

----------


## 534623

> who cares what dr cole has to say?!?!?!?!?


 He just says what all the others also could see and hear...

----------


## Scientalk56

"It is still unknown if this stimulated hair will in fact can keep growing."

We can conclude two things:
1. "There is big significant terminal hair regrowth" 
2. We don't know yet if the hair will keep growing.

What's the problem of not knowing something? That what science is about - discovering things.
Minoxidil has the ability to delay the baldness process, but no one knows for sure How it does that.

You have two options:
1. be a scientist and make a drug of your own for regrowing hair
2. do nothing...

Have a good day..

----------


## UK Boy

> He just says what all the others also could see and hear...


 OMG! Ironman actually posted something informative and interesting - although I don't think he intended it in that way. He was just trying to use it to back up the doubts of Dr. Cole but I'm actually interested to read this article. It actually gives us a bit of good news about what Dr. Washenik said about Aderans progress at the conference - the article confirms they were in the process of getting the go ahead for Phase III and that was back in October! Also it doesn't say that there's no evidence of Histogen growing hair, it just says it has yet to prove how long the new hairs will last for. Seems like good news so thanks for that Ironman  :Smile:  How comes we haven't seen this article before now?

----------


## 534623

> OMG! Ironman actually posted something informative and interesting -


 shit - I forgot to cut out all the other crap.  :Embarrassment: 

What in the world have I done ...

----------


## Scientalk56

> shit - i forgot to cut out all the other crap. 
> 
> what in the world have i done ...


 lol ................

----------


## UK Boy

> shit - I forgot to cut out all the other crap. 
> 
> What in the world have I done ...


 Haha, looks like the Ironman's going soft! The article also goes on to talk about Luis Garza's presentation regarding PDG2, I'd like to know what it said about that but it cuts off. This is much more the kind of conference summary that I wanted, doesn't give loads of info but at least it appears to mention each presentation equally rather than breezing over cutting edge stuff and giving a detailed, word for word coverage of FUE Vs.FUT.

----------


## UK Boy

> shit - I forgot to cut out all the other crap. 
> 
> What in the world have I done ...


 Haha, looks like the Ironman's going soft! The article also goes on to talk about Luis Garza's presentation regarding PDG2, I'd like to know what it said about that but it cuts off. This is much more the kind of conference summary that I wanted, doesn't give loads of info but at least it appears to mention each presentation equally rather than breezing over cutting edge stuff and giving a detailed, word for word coverage of FUE Vs.FUT.

----------


## Thinning87

> "It is still unknown if this stimulated hair will in fact can keep growing."
> 
> We can conclude two things:
> 1. "There is big significant terminal hair regrowth" 
> 2. We don't know yet if the hair will keep growing.
> 
> What's the problem of not knowing something? That what science is about - discovering things.
> Minoxidil has the ability to delay the baldness process, but no one knows for sure How it does that.
> 
> ...


 This is what any sane person would think like. 

This 5436 guy or whatever, he just tries to get off people's nerves by starting debates and raising issues over very small technicalities. He has shown not to know much about what he's talking about, and insists on counting hairs off a bad picture as evidence of what he thinks is a conspiracy against the public on the part of Aderans and Histogen.

It's good to be somewhat skeptic and not get excited to easily, but he goes well beyond this. He showed us a picture of his hair, in my opinion he's just really afraid that if something comes up he won't be able to benefit from the new treatments while others will.

----------


## 2020

what do they mean by "if the hairs will keep growing". The sentence that mentioned significant terminal hair count increase already IMPLIED that there was hair growth. Density was improved. That's that. What else do they want? These people are ****ing retarded. They have no common sense. They're one of those people who will spend years and billions of dollars to create a pen that writes upside down in space when all you needed was a pencil...

----------


## The Alchemist

> This is what any sane person would think like. 
> 
> This 5436 guy or whatever, he just tries to get off people's nerves by starting debates and raising issues over very small technicalities. He has shown not to know much about what he's talking about, and insists on counting hairs off a bad picture as evidence of what he thinks is a conspiracy against the public on the part of Aderans and Histogen..


 Yeah, that's his schtick.  He's been doing it for years over at hairsite.  He'll take small pieces of information clipped from a article or website and use it out of context or only put up part the part of the information that backs up whatever inane point he's trying to make.   He does it to get a rise out of people and to try and come off as some kind of expert on the forums - mostl likely he's trying to assuage a very severe insecurity complex that stems from his lack of station in life.   You can choose to ignore him or laugh it him, but, never take him seriously.

----------


## garethbale

> what do they mean by "if the hairs will keep growing". .


 I think they are referring to growth cycles, ie will the hairs that shed be replaced by newer hairs...

----------


## 2020

> I think they are referring to growth cycles, ie will the hairs that shed be replaced by newer hairs...


 It most likely will... Why wouldn't it? Although you will continue to bald since HSC doesn't cure baldness, it just sets back the time some. If they weren't complete idiots, they would monitor

----------


## garethbale

> It most likely will... Why wouldn't it? Although you will continue to bald since HSC doesn't cure baldness, it just sets back the time some. If they weren't complete idiots, they would monitor


 Well from the video she says growth continues for about a year so this suggests it survives growth cycles.  We need a preventative treatment as well so hopefully Aderans can provide this.

Interestingly, why do you consider Histogen idiots?

----------


## 2020

> Well from the video she says growth continues for about a year so this suggests it survives growth cycles.


 similar study like this would settle it once for all:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12894070

although I'm sure if the "pro-hair growth" variables are all increased, then the growth will in theory remain forever assuming DHT is under control.




> We need a preventative treatment as well so hopefully Aderans can provide this.


 correction: two desperate people on this forum need it. There are a gazillion treatments to maintain hair plus most people wouldn't even need to use it. You do realize that 70%+ of their customers will be women who "don't have as much hair as they used to"? If you imagine hair loss market as an army of NW7 men then you're very mistaken...




> Interestingly, why do you consider Histogen idiots?


 Histogen definitely has the right concept of how hair loss should be treated. I want them to succeed but the signs point the other way. UT San Diego and Taylor Baldwin are no ones. This is just an attempt by Histogen to appear "active" as if they're making any serious progress...

----------


## 534623

> Well from the video she says growth continues for about a year so this suggests it survives growth cycles.


 Of course is SHE saying this - or can you see something other than this...

*... in a normal hairy and normal cycling area??*

Just look at the number 76 on top of Histogen's photo - what can you see?
There are 2 single hairs. In the BEFORE photo, 1 hair is normal thick, the other hair is thinner. In the AFTER photo, the thinner hair is suddenly thicker and the thicker hair is suddenly thinner. What does it mean?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Anyway, such a scenario, as just described, you can see this EVERYWHERE in Histogen's "proof-photo" what actually just shows a completely normal hairy and cycling area. Furthermore, if this stuff would work so great as they claim - why DISAPPEARED so many hairs in the after photo at all??

And you losers still support such a -in my opinion- fraud.

----------


## re22

I don't think you're in a very good position to call other people losers.

----------


## 534623

> I don't think you're in a very good position to call other people losers.


 When I read all the previous posts - hmmm, I think I can.

----------


## re22

People here are easy targets, though. Anyone can do what you're doing.

----------


## 2020

> Furthermore, if this stuff would work so great as they claim - why DISAPPEARED so many hairs in the after photo at all??


 because the photo is centered in a different place?




> And you losers still support such a -in my opinion- fraud.


 why would they do it? People eventually will know that it doesn't work

----------


## garethbale

> Of course is SHE saying this - or can you see something other than this...
> 
> *... in a normal hairy and normal cycling area??*
> 
> Just look at the number 76 on top of Histogen's photo - what can you see?
> There are 2 single hairs. In the BEFORE photo, 1 hair is normal thick, the other hair is thinner. In the AFTER photo, the thinner hair is suddenly thicker and the thicker hair is suddenly thinner. What does it mean? 
> 
> Anyway, such a scenario, as just described, you can see this EVERYWHERE in Histogen's "proof-photo" what actually just shows a completely normal hairy and cycling area. Furthermore, if this stuff would work so great as they claim - why DISAPPEARED so many hairs in the after photo at all??
> 
> And you losers still support such a -in my opinion- fraud.


 
Why don't you learn English before you insult people?

----------


## 534623

> Why don't you learn English before you insult people?


 What do you mean? Did I write the word 'losers' wrong? 

By the way ...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...8&postcount=14

Why don't you learn reading English before trying to be smart??  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## garethbale

> What do you mean? Did I write the word 'losers' wrong? 
> 
> By the way ...
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...8&postcount=14
> 
> Why don't you learn reading English before trying to be smart??


 I mean this...

'Of course is SHE saying this - or can you see something other than this...'

and...

'Furthermore, if this stuff would work so great as they claim - why DISAPPEARED so many hairs in the after photo at all??'


Neither sentence makes sense. 

In the post you linked, you tried to attribute a quote to someone who didn't say it.   I then pointed this out and you have since tried tried to back track and turn it round, unsuccessfully.  :Smile:

----------


## 534623

> In the post you linked, you tried to attribute a quote to someone who didn't say it.   I then pointed this out and you have since tried tried to back track and turn it round, unsuccessfully.


 Really?
So who said "There's a sucker [like you] born every minute" ?

----------


## garethbale

> Really?
> So who said "There's a sucker [like you] born every minute" ?


 Whoever did say it is beside the point.  You tried to attribute it to the wrong person.

----------


## 534623

> Whoever did say it is beside the point.  You tried to attribute it to the wrong person.


 And who is the "right" person?

Try to find it out ...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_&#37;...very_minute%27

Actually, irrelevant who, in fact, said it; THE point is plain and simple - and still *legit*:

There's a sucker born every minute!

... and suckers buy every shit and "they would return even if the 'truth' was found to *not* be true" - because they are simply SUCKERS! . :Big Grin:

----------


## UK_

> Really?
> So who said "There's a sucker [like you] born every minute" ?


 You're just a troll Iron_Man.  You are nothing but a troll.

----------


## 534623

> You're just a troll Iron_Man.  You are nothing but a troll.


 And you're just a sucker UK_.  You are nothing but a sucker.

----------


## Breaking Bald

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LjbMVXj0F8



It's uncanny how well a lot of those lyrics apply to you IRON MAN!!!

----------


## garethbale

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LjbMVXj0F8
> 
> 
> 
> It's uncanny how well a lot of those lyrics apply to you IRON MAN!!!


 haha

it's funny cos it's true!

----------


## 534623

> haha
> 
> it's funny


 Of course, kids (and suckers) like comics!!
And their  ability of the mind to create mental images which do not literally exist is gigantic!

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Of course, kids (and suckers) like comics!!
> And their  ability of the mind to create mental images which do not literally exist is giant!


 Are you by any chance asperger's? Because that would make a lot of sense. Yup I can't take you seriously anymore, that image is what I picture of you, sorry bro...

----------


## 534623

> Are you by any chance asperger's?


 Why? Did Dr. Asperger listen to Histogen's BS presentation at the ISHRS conference?

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Why? Did Dr. Asperger listen to Histogen's BS presentation at the ISHRS conference?


 ...HAHA...ok...erm it's an actual condition, LMAO. I suggest you look it up you retard. It's called asperger syndrome you ****ing dunce. Too funny.

P.S you might want to look up dunce as well. Haha, oh man you actually made me laugh out loud.

----------


## 534623

> ...HAHA...ok...erm it's an actual condition, LMAO. I suggest you look it up you retard. It's called asperger syndrome you ****ing dunce. *Too funny.*


 Indeed - too funny. And this syndome is named after - whom?

So I suggest you should rather play with your Barbie dolls - or genitals.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> Indeed - too funny. And this syndome is named after - whom?
> 
> So I suggest you should rather play with your Barbie dolls - or genitals.


 Are you capable of coming up with a witty come back at all??? I think you are definitely asperger's, it would make a lot of sense. 

A sad lonely, cynical man in his mid 40's arguing with people half of his age on the internet all day and all night. I feel pretty sorry for you to be honest. Do you have trouble with real life social interactions? Do you have obsessive characteristics? Odd behavioral patterns? Do you lack empathy? Avoid eye contact with face to face interactions? 

I mean I'm thinking yes to most of these questions judging by your forum posts. Are you on medication?

----------


## 534623

> A sad lonely, cynical man in his mid 40's arguing with people half of his age on the internet all day and all night. I feel pretty sorry for you to be honest. Do you have trouble with real life social interactions? Do you have obsessive characteristics? Odd behavioral patterns? Do you lack empathy? Avoid eye contact with face to face interactions?


 hmmm, to the best of my knowledge (oh, and my knowledge is really plentiful), those, who try to analyze others in such a way as you do, oh well, you can add for them a lot more things to their 'analysis' about others.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Breaking Bald

> hmmm, to the best of my knowledge (oh, and my knowledge is really plentiful), those, who try to analyze others in such a way as you do, oh well, you can add for them a lot more things to their 'analysis' about others.


 haha ok...well I think I'm done arguing with you for now, try to find someone else. I'm done feeding the troll, find another feeder. Man, it's like nursing a little baby.

----------


## 534623

> I'm done feeding the troll


 hmmm, I have no problems with feeding suckers.

----------


## UK Boy

I just really hope that Histogen have resolved the issues with their photos when they present their next results. I'm dreading that they're going to just release the same standard of photos and that all the doubters will continue to pick fault in them. I wish people hadn't scared doctor Ziering off this forum cos then we could ask him about things like "why does Ironmans count show the same numbers of hairs in each picture etc." I've already lost tonnes of hope in Aderans, I don't wanna do the same with Histogen cos I've always preferred them. The thing is that the photos are proving to be a real issue in the everyone says they're snake oil type photos which doesn't back up the statistical info. I'm just feeling really feed up of all this let downs.

----------


## rdawg

haha I really wish we could get an insider or just not be left in the dark so much with these products.

don't get me wrong I know it's a process, but it's like we get big news, then we don't hear from the companies for 5-6 months!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> I just really hope that Histogen have resolved the issues with their photos when they present their next results. I'm dreading that they're going to just release the same standard of photos and that all the doubters will continue to pick fault in them. I wish people hadn't scared doctor Ziering off this forum cos then we could ask him about things like "why does Ironmans count show the same numbers of hairs in each picture etc." I've already lost tonnes of hope in Aderans, I don't wanna do the same with Histogen cos I've always preferred them. The thing is that the photos are proving to be a real issue in the everyone says they're snake oil type photos which doesn't back up the statistical info. I'm just feeling really feed up of all this let downs.


 

Why did you lose hope in Aderans? they are heading to phase III!!!

----------


## UK Boy

> Why did you lose hope in Aderans? they are heading to phase III!!!


 Yeah they're heading into phase III but if you listen to what Doctor Washnik says about the treatment at the 2012 MESA meeting it just doesn't sound like that great a treatment at all. If the cost was low enough and they didn't have to take a slice of scalp to do it then I'd still go for it. If it proves to make hairs immune to DHT I'd also do it. But at the mo all he says is that 40% of the 60% that it works for get Propecia equivalent regrowth of miniturized follicles. Just listen to the MESA video, Ironman's right about that, people aren't bothering but the info's all there.

----------


## UK Boy

> Why did you lose hope in Aderans? they are heading to phase III!!!


 Yeah they're heading into phase III but if you listen to what Doctor Washnik says about the treatment at the 2012 MESA meeting it just doesn't sound like that great a treatment at all. If the cost was low enough and they didn't have to take a slice of scalp to do it then I'd still go for it. If it proves to make hairs immune to DHT I'd also do it. But at the mo all he says is that 40% of the 60% that it works for get Propecia equivalent regrowth of miniturized follicles. Just listen to the MESA video, Ironman's right about that, people aren't bothering but the info's all there.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Yeah they're heading into phase III but if you listen to what Doctor Washnik says about the treatment at the 2012 MESA meeting it just doesn't sound like that great a treatment at all. If the cost was low enough and they didn't have to take a slice of scalp to do it then I'd still go for it. If it proves to make hairs immune to DHT I'd also do it. But at the mo all he says is that 40% of the 60% that it works for get Propecia equivalent regrowth of miniturized follicles. Just listen to the MESA video, Ironman's right about that, people aren't bothering but the info's all there.


 Yeah propecia style regrowth without the sides  :Smile:

----------


## FearTheLoss

a lot of people would be hella happy with a propecia affect without sides!

----------


## garethbale

> a lot of people would be hella happy with a propecia affect without sides!


 Propecia is only good for the crown.  My hair loss is on the temples and hair line, where propecia is useless.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Propecia is only good for the crown.  My hair loss is on the temples and hair line, where propecia is useless.


 Well you can then use Aderans in conjunction with a HT.

Just dense pack your hairline without ever worrying about further thinning.

I don't see what the problem is here guys.

----------


## garethbale

> Well you can then use Aderans in conjunction with a HT.
> 
> Just dense pack your hairline without ever worrying about further thinning.
> 
> I don't see what the problem is here guys.


 
I have been trying to hold on to my hair line but it is receding a bit.  That's why I am considering going to Gho for a hairline transplant.

BUT, I would not dense pack it, as:

a. we don't know if/when Aderans (or Histogen or Replicel) will be available

b. how well these treatments will work if they do come out

I am hoping new treatments will be available in a few years but I still think its too risky to expect them to come and 'save us', hence why I wouldn't dense pack my hair line

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I have been trying to hold on to my hair line but it is receding a bit.  That's why I am considering going to Gho for a hairline transplant.
> 
> BUT, I would not dense pack it, as:
> 
> a. we don't know if/when Aderans (or Histogen or Replicel) will be available
> 
> b. how well these treatments will work if they do come out
> 
> I am hoping new treatments will be available in a few years but I still think its too risky to expect them to come and 'save us', hence why I wouldn't dense pack my hair line


 
Got a pic of your hairline?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Propecia is only good for the crown.  My hair loss is on the temples and hair line, where propecia is useless.


 That isn't true at all! 

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9661

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/medi...a-finasteride/

----------


## FearTheLoss

> I have been trying to hold on to my hair line but it is receding a bit.  That's why I am considering going to Gho for a hairline transplant.
> 
> BUT, I would not dense pack it, as:
> 
> a. we don't know if/when Aderans (or Histogen or Replicel) will be available
> 
> b. how well these treatments will work if they do come out
> 
> I am hoping new treatments will be available in a few years but I still think its too risky to expect them to come and 'save us', hence why I wouldn't dense pack my hair line


 Gho regenerates 80%+ of donor...you can pack your hairline fine and still be able to come back numerous times

----------


## UK Boy

> Yeah they're heading into phase III but if you listen to what Doctor Washnik says about the treatment at the 2012 MESA meeting it just doesn't sound like that great a treatment at all. If the cost was low enough and they didn't have to take a slice of scalp to do it then I'd still go for it. If it proves to make hairs immune to DHT I'd also do it. But at the mo all he says is that 40% of the 60% that it works for get Propecia equivalent regrowth of miniturized follicles. Just listen to the MESA video, Ironman's right about that, people aren't bothering but the info's all there.


 Ok, I think I may have got a bit confused here, although I don't know for sure, but I think I was wrong in saying 40% of the 60%, looks like it's 40% of the total. Still that means that only 40 people out of 100 got 13 new hairs per sq cm. Also is it really Propecia without the side effects? Those that respond well to Propecia get regrowth and stabilisation of further hair loss, there's still nothing to say that Aderans will halt further loss, I really really hope it will and I hope it will do it with more certainty than Propecia as well but as of yet there's no proof of that. If this only grows as much hair as Propecia in 40% and doesn't halt further loss it's not as good as propecia - it's more like minoxidil. Propecia has a resonse rate somewhere in the 80's right? So clinically twice as many people respond to Propecia.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Ok, I think I may have got a bit confused here, although I don't know for sure, but I think I was wrong in saying 40% of the 60%, looks like it's 40% of the total. Still that means that only 40 people out of 100 got 13 new hairs per sq cm. Also is it really Propecia without the side effects? Those that respond well to Propecia get regrowth and stabilisation of further hair loss, there's still nothing to say that Aderans will halt further loss, I really really hope it will and I hope it will do it with more certainty than Propecia as well but as of yet there's no proof of that. If this only grows as much hair as Propecia in 40% and doesn't halt further loss it's not as good as propecia - it's more like minoxidil. Propecia has a resonse rate somewhere in the 80's right? So clinically twice as many people respond to Propecia.


 trust me, aderans won't release a product that isn't better than propecia...they have too much money behind them and people expect too much of them for them to come out with something like that.

----------


## garethbale

> Got a pic of your hairline?


 
I have some somewhere, haven't uploaded any to my computer.  Might do in a couple of days.


Fear the loss
Okay, a few people have had success on the front with it, but its generally accepted to work better on the crown

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Gho regenerates 80%+ of donor...you can pack your hairline fine and still be able to come back numerous times


 Tbh if Aderans gets into phase 3 , it might be worth going to gho for the time being.

Gareth bale it sounds as though your hairloss is not aggressive, I.e your hairline is going back a couple of mm every year.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Tbh if Aderans gets into phase 3 , it might be worth going to gho for the time being.
> 
> Gareth bale it sounds as though your hairloss is not aggressive, I.e your hairline is going back a couple of mm every year.


 If you saw the article we were discussing in this thread

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=11311&page=2

they announced they are starting phase III (article is on page 2 of the thread right above the highlighted portion)

----------


## garethbale

> Tbh if Aderans gets into phase 3 , it might be worth going to gho for the time being.
> 
> Gareth bale it sounds as though your hairloss is not aggressive, I.e your hairline is going back a couple of mm every year.


 Yeah I want to do something about my hairline sooner or later.  Was considering a small frontal piece to blend in with my hair but wouldn't want anyone to notice.

I would rather my own hair so am thinking about Gho, but I have always been cautious of surgery.  Plus I am saving for a deposit on a flat and it annoys me that a big chunk of it may go on a HT.

I have been slowly receding since about Sept 2003.  These are some pics I took of my hair today after a haircut, and yesterday (hopefully they upload properly).  My hair is not thinning at all on top but the front is getting a bit thin and I can't style it how I'd like anymore

What Norwood would you say I am at the moment?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Yeah I want to do something about my hairline sooner or later.  Was considering a small frontal piece to blend in with my hair but wouldn't want anyone to notice.
> 
> I would rather my own hair so am thinking about Gho, but I have always been cautious of surgery.  Plus I am saving for a deposit on a flat and it annoys me that a big chunk of it may go on a HT.
> 
> I have been slowly receding since about Sept 2003.  These are some pics I took of my hair today after a haircut, and yesterday (hopefully they upload properly).  My hair is not thinning at all on top but the front is getting a bit thin and I can't style it how I'd like anymore
> 
> What Norwood would you say I am at the moment?


 I'd say a 2.5/3 based on the pictures

----------


## Conpecia

Cmon man a hair piece with that loss? You're maybe NW2.5 at worst, more like 2.1, solid coverage. You definitely don't "look" bald. No one but us other bald-obsessed guys would even think you're losing hair. Your hair looks awesome buzzed, just hang on until these treatments come out and if it gets worse have a touch up in two years. Def wouldn't get an ht for that loss.

----------


## garethbale

> Cmon man a hair piece with that loss? You're maybe NW2.5 at worst, more like 2.1, solid coverage. You definitely don't "look" bald. No one but us other bald-obsessed guys would even think you're losing hair. Your hair looks awesome buzzed, just hang on until these treatments come out and if it gets worse have a touch up in two years. Def wouldn't get an ht for that loss.


 yeah maybe, my hair is wet in the second and third pics so it looks a bit thinner.  My hair if strong on top and my brother, who is 5 years older than me is receding in the same pattern, so I may go for a frontal HT in the next couple of years,  Then hope Aderans/Histogen can come out a few years after that

I doubt a buzz cut suits me though.  I am quite short and I think the buzz cut looks better on taller guys

----------


## UK_

I say you're a NW2/2.5 - closer to a solid NW2 though.  

If Dr Gho can offer to move a hairline forward by even 1cm each year and still retain 80% donor then why are we all waiting for Histogen update?  (Especially Iron_Man, why is he waiting for Histogen update?).

----------


## FearTheLoss

> I say you're a NW2/2.5 - closer to a solid NW2 though.  
> 
> If Dr Gho can offer to move a hairline forward by even 1cm each year and still retain 80% donor then why are we all waiting for Histogen update?  (Especially Iron_Man, why is he waiting for Histogen update?).


 
Ironman has already had a procedure with Gho I believe...and because you have to wait 9 months in between every procedure with Gho...so if you are a higher norwood it takes years to get to nw1 because you can only do 1400 (on average) grafts a year

----------


## FearTheLoss

and its expensive as shit

----------


## hellouser

> Ironman has already had a procedure with Gho I believe...and because you have to wait 9 months in between every procedure with Gho...so if you are a higher norwood it takes years to get to nw1 because *you can only do 1400 (on average) grafts a year*


 I'm having trouble believing that 1,400 is the average. Why only 1,400? There's been some cases of guys getting 4,000-6,000 mega-session hair transplants. Typical maximum graft donor amount is between 6-8,000 grafts. So why only 1,400 per session? The other problem I have with this is that the website clearly states 2,500 maximum in one session. Alright, so if I show up at the clinic with $15,000 for a 2,500 graft procedure why in the hell would he say _NO_ to $15,000?

----------


## UK_

> Ironman has already had a procedure with Gho I believe...and because you have to wait 9 months in between every procedure with Gho...so if you are a higher norwood it takes years to get to nw1 because you can only do 1400 (on average) grafts a year


 FTL, I just think if something sounds too good to be true it usually is... this rule is like the word of God in the hair loss industry.

----------


## Vox

> I have been slowly receding since about Sept 2003.  These are some pics I took of my hair today after a haircut, and yesterday (hopefully they upload properly).  My hair is not thinning at all on top but the front is getting a bit thin and I can't style it how I'd like anymore
> 
> What Norwood would you say I am at the moment?


 Oh, come on, this is all the hair you managed to lose in ... ten years? Totally pathetic!  :Big Grin: 

You are doing just fine. As the others said, you look like a solid NW 2, max 2.5.

----------


## Vox

> I'm having trouble believing that 1,400 is the average. Why only 1,400? There's been some cases of guys getting 4,000-6,000 mega-session hair transplants. Typical maximum graft donor amount is between 6-8,000 grafts. So why only 1,400 per session? The other problem I have with this is that the website clearly states 2,500 maximum in one session. Alright, so if I show up at the clinic with $15,000 for a 2,500 graft procedure why in the hell would he say _NO_ to $15,000?


 I think the main concern is the regeneration of the donor zone. They must have evidence that a massive session would damage it beyond repair, pretty much in the way it happens during normal FUE.

Also, I think that the advertised 2500 grafts sessions are not for everyone. I have no specific information about this but my gut feeling is that this is the absolute maximum they can reach in a big enough head with optimum donor density.

Ensuring donor regeneration is key in this technique. I am sure that they will never risk a failure in regeneration and, therefore, in their reputation. This must be the main limiting factor. The products of Aderans and Histogen discussed here may seem subpar at this moment, but who knows which could be the potential applications in donor regeneration in the Gho technique. Hopefully they will solve the regeneration problem no matter how big the session is.

----------


## garethbale

> Oh, come on, this is all the hair you managed to lose in ... ten years? Totally pathetic! 
> 
> You are doing just fine. As the others said, you look like a solid NW 2, max 2.5.


 9 and a half years actually  :Big Grin:  

But thanks. Yes, I'm fortunate that it hasn't been that aggressive with no crown loss, though I think my frontal loss is becoming a bit more noticeable, particularly when its long.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Yeah I want to do something about my hairline sooner or later.  Was considering a small frontal piece to blend in with my hair but wouldn't want anyone to notice.
> 
> I would rather my own hair so am thinking about Gho, but I have always been cautious of surgery.  Plus I am saving for a deposit on a flat and it annoys me that a big chunk of it may go on a HT.
> 
> I have been slowly receding since about Sept 2003.  These are some pics I took of my hair today after a haircut, and yesterday (hopefully they upload properly).  My hair is not thinning at all on top but the front is getting a bit thin and I can't style it how I'd like anymore
> 
> What Norwood would you say I am at the moment?


 How old are you, and you are a NW2.

I dont think you will lose a significant amount of hairs in 2 years, given that it has taken 9 years to get to this point.

I would wait for an update in the summer month from the 2 companies - have a small touch up at the hairline with gho, then use future treatments.

----------


## 534623

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1

Enrollment: 	56
Study Start Date: 	December 2011
Estimated Primary Completion Date: 	June 2012
Estimated *Study Completion Date: 	December 2012*

So, according to this, where are the promised new and typical Chinese before/after hairloss-cure-success-photos?

----------


## garethbale

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1
> 
> Enrollment: 	56
> Study Start Date: 	December 2011
> Estimated Primary Completion Date: 	June 2012
> Estimated *Study Completion Date: 	December 2012*
> 
> So, according to this, where are the promised new and typical Chinese before/after hairloss-cure-success-photos?


 Seriously, give it a rest...you're boring.


yeayeahyeah

I am 28, 29 this summer.  My brother is probably NW 3 and he is 5 years older than me.  I'm content to wait a few more years for whichever treatments come out but I would rather have my hair while I am still quite young.  I may get my hairline filled in in the next 2 years though I would never dense pack it, just incase.

----------


## 534623

> Seriously, give it a rest...you're boring.


 Seriously - and why don't you share your information in this thread here...


> I emailed them a few days ago and received a response saying an announcement on the results was expected in the next couple of months.  They said there had been 'promising' results in men as well as women, but were a bit evasive over potential release dates.


 ... instead of telling your boring family and hairloss history??  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Actually, I'm not interested in their "announcement on the results" (just throwing out weird NUMBERS again) - I'm just curious to see the new Chinese website style hairloss-cure-photos... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1
> 
> Enrollment: 	56
> Study Start Date: 	December 2011
> Estimated Primary Completion Date: 	June 2012
> Estimated *Study Completion Date: 	December 2012*
> 
> So, according to this, where are the promised new and typical Chinese before/after hairloss-cure-success-photos?


 seems like hsc is in phase 1 still

----------


## garethbale

> Seriously - and why don't you share your information in this thread here...
> ... instead of telling your boring family and hairloss history?? 
> 
> :


 What are you talking about you cu.nt?!  I was asked a question so I answered it.

----------


## UK_

> seems like hsc is in phase 1 still


 I dont know, Gail clearly stated in an interview with Spencer:  "_and the SECOND trial will consist of 56 patients"._

Whatever happens, she's gearing up for a 2015 release in Asia and possibly a year later for America & Europe.

I think her next move will be to expand the trial to 300 patients, that will obviously eat up around 18 - 24 months before the product is ready for release.  Remember, the reason we're waiting longer is because of the previous legal action imposed on Histogen by Skinmedica.

----------


## UK_

> What are you talking about you cu.nt?!  I was asked a question so I answered it.


 Its okay, he lost the plot a long time ago on hairsite.

----------


## Thinning87

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...istogen&rank=1
> 
> Enrollment: 	56
> Study Start Date: 	December 2011
> Estimated Primary Completion Date: 	June 2012
> Estimated *Study Completion Date: 	December 2012*
> 
> So, according to this, where are the promised new and typical Chinese before/after hairloss-cure-success-photos?


 Always looking for a reason to troll. What a clown, you never let us down. Just because results haven't been published it doesn't mean the study didn't go well.

----------


## Kiwi

> What are you talking about you cu.nt?!  I was asked a question so I answered it.


 Ignore ironman. He's just a Nigel no mates having another moan :P

----------


## UK Boy

Ironman - you clearly don't have much belief in Histogen's treatment, if I'm right you think that they're going about it the wrong way and they need to include wounding to the process. However my actual question is in regards to your opinion of their results. You believe their statistics are random numbers and that their photos are Chinese website style. I want to ask you what you think they're doing then? What's there plan? Because they're not a snake oil fly by night - they're going through clinical trials, why would they continue to bother with this if they've got nothing? They don't have big funds like Aderans. Also why would they bother to fight on through things like the skin medical thing? I'm not asking for an arguement or for you to call me stupid or a sucker, I just asking for you thoughts. If it's all a lie they're never gonna get FDA approval, what's the point in lying now to get caught out in 3 years time? They have to pay for trials and unless they get a product to market they're never gonna get that money back so they're just wasting money if they've got nothing, why would they do that.

----------


## clandestine

****** off back to hair site Ironman, you don't contribute anything here.

----------


## Thinning87

I like Clandestine's approach much better

----------


## 534623

@UK Boy  as you can see yourself, your post is pretty long and actually consists just of (serious) questions. That means, to give you *proper* answers, is not easy without proper explanations  sometimes its necessary to go a little bit deeper and sometimes in such a way (with pics etc) so that even a layman is able to understand all points. So doing this takes time

 but after reading my answers (Ill try it sometime later), in future, you WILL be far more critically in general as soon as you hear something about new hair loss cures  what on the other hand can be considered as hope killer and what finally just makes some guys ironman killers. So  what?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## 534623

> ****** off back to hair site Ironman, you don't contribute anything here.


 Sorry, can’t do that, because HS’s “Hair Loss Research & Clinical Trials” forum has been hijacked (now it’s rather a chatroom for idiots) by some useless snake-oil jockeys – like you.

----------


## UK Boy

> Sorry, cant do that, because HSs Hair Loss Research & Clinical Trials forum has been hijacked (now its rather a chatroom for idiots) by some useless snake-oil jockeys  like you.


 I have to agree with Ironman on this. Whenever I check out HS the topics are just not informative and include an awful lot of arguing.

----------


## FearTheLoss

well we are less than 2 months away from a major histogen update...either way it's make or break with this one!

----------


## Thinning87

> @UK Boy  as you can see yourself, your post is pretty long and actually consists just of (serious) questions. That means, to give you *proper* answers, is not easy without proper explanations  sometimes its necessary to go a little bit deeper and sometimes in such a way (with pics etc) so that even a layman is able to understand all points. So doing this takes time
> 
>  but after reading my answers (Ill try it sometime later), in future, you WILL be far more critically in general as soon as you hear something about new hair loss cures  what on the other hand can be considered as hope killer and what finally just makes some guys ironman killers. So  what?


 HAHAHA no answer! What a clown! You're such a loser

----------


## HARIRI

> well we are less than 2 months away from a major histogen update...either way it's make or break with this one!


 Fingers crossed  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## mjolnir

> well we are less than 2 months away from a major histogen update...either way it's make or break with this one!


 Here's hoping for something amazing. Or rather, something even more amazing than what we've seen so far. As I've said before, we pretty much know this stuff works (and there are pictures to prove it, even if we don't know how they compare to 'average' results) - the main question now is how well, and how safely.

----------


## Thinning87

I don't know if this has been posted, it's somewhat related to HSC: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/oba...lex-2013-01-30

Basically (if I remember correctly), the same company is supposed to manufacture the HSC hair product in the future. I think this can be taken as good news, although again the article and agreement are not about HSC so let's not get too excited. But, an operational agreement to manufacture and sell Histogen products can only be beneficial for Histogen in the future if other more interesting products make it to FDA approval.

----------


## goingquick

> well we are less than 2 months away from a major histogen update...either way it's make or break with this one!


 Could you give more details on this?  Will this be the conclusion of the phase II trials, or just another periodic measurement?

I'm really hoping Histogen knocks it out of the park, since I think they're about the best hope we've got for a regrowth at this point.

----------


## Desmond84

There will be 2 Phase II trials:

- Phase IIa was completed in Dec 2012 and their final data (12 months results) will be released sometimes between now and June! and

- Phase IIb will hopefully start sometimes before the end of the year. 

Hope that helps...I can't wait either  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> There will be 2 Phase II trials:
> 
> - Phase IIa was completed in Dec 2012 and their final data (12 months results) will be released sometimes between now and June! and
> 
> - Phase IIb will hopefully start sometimes before the end of the year. 
> 
> Hope that helps...I can't wait either


 How long is Phase IIb supposed to last?

----------


## Dazza

> There will be 2 Phase II trials:
> 
> - Phase IIa was completed in Dec 2012 and their final data (12 months results) will be released sometimes between now and June! and
> 
> - Phase IIb will hopefully start sometimes before the end of the year. 
> 
> Hope that helps...I can't wait either


 will a phase3 still be required or does the phase2a / 2b suffice?

----------


## FearTheLoss

I thought there was talk about combining phase II and III, but I could be wrong. Des knows more on histogen so he can clarify. They are on track for 2015 release in Asia and 2016-17 for the US.

----------


## goingquick

> There will be 2 Phase II trials:
> 
> - Phase IIa was completed in Dec 2012 and their final data (12 months results) will be released sometimes between now and June! and
> 
> - Phase IIb will hopefully start sometimes before the end of the year. 
> 
> Hope that helps...I can't wait either


 Thanks Desmond.  

What's the reason for a phase IIB?

----------


## HARIRI

> Thanks Desmond.  
> 
> What's the reason for a phase IIB?


 It really pisses me off when I hear Phase IIB, I have no clue why Histogen wants to prolong the trial II phase??? I never heard of this before. This means another delayed year for IIB results which makes it in total 2 years with Phase III !!! I hope Desmond84 enlighten us on it.  :Confused: 

I only have strong hopes in Histogen, weak ones in Aderans and very weak ones in Replicel.

----------


## koolx

ok they said they'd update us this month with pics from the 12-month trial. so far i havent seen any pics. its almost march already.. where the hell are the pics??

----------


## 534623

> ok they said they'd update us this month with pics from the 12-month trial. so far i havent seen any pics. its almost march already.. where the hell are the pics??


 I think it takes time to find the "ideal" pics for the public and potential investors. Furthermore, it takes also time to find the "ideal" success numbers (percentages) to these "ideal" pics.

----------


## UK_

> *2000 USD every two years is pretty expensive.* 
> 
> concerning the number of injections and dose - nobody can tell, because phase II/III is supposed to check that.
> 
> Something like HSC, that bald people in the whole world will be depended on, so they can still hold their hair, shouldn't be expensive. because every bald guy will get the treatment every two years, an income from every bald guy in the world every two years will make histogen rich enough...
> that 2000 price will make histogen bankrupt.. lol
> 
> anyway.. if that's the max amount of price that would be, it will drop eventually.


 2000USD isnt expensive if you're spending that already on 2 years worth of supply of finasteride, minoxidil and the host of other snake oils everyone falls prey to each year.

----------


## koolx

> I think it takes time to find the "ideal" pics for the public and potential investors. Furthermore, it takes also time to find the "ideal" success numbers (percentages) to these "ideal" pics.


 
OMG! get the fu'ck out of here.. takes time to find the ideal pics... if u got to find the ideal pics, which doesnt and shouldnt exist, then this histogen is all bulls'hit..  listen everyone if it takes this much trouble for this company to supply a couple iof stupid little pics then dont waste your time.. this thing doesnt work.. look into other things.

----------


## UK_

> OMG! get the fu'ck out of here.. takes time to find the ideal pics... if u got to find the ideal pics, which doesnt and shouldnt exist, then this histogen is all bulls'hit..  listen everyone if it takes this much trouble for this company to supply a couple iof stupid little pics then dont waste your time.. this thing doesnt work.. *look into other things*.


 We're all ears...

----------


## hellouser

> OMG! get the fu'ck out of here.. takes time to find the ideal pics... if u got to find the ideal pics, which doesnt and shouldnt exist, then this histogen is all bulls'hit..  listen everyone if it takes this much trouble for this company to supply a couple iof stupid little pics then dont waste your time.. this thing doesnt work.. look into other things.


 There actually is a process for this, believe it or not, lol. I did photography a couple of weeks ago for an exhibition. I had around 800 photos and the bosses wanted to about 50-150 photographs in the end to upload for the public. However, I had to first weed out the bad ones and then present the good ones. They then pick out the ones they like and I need to do edits (colour correction, sharpening, etc) so all photographs look consistent and proper. The bosses the look at the photos and give the final go ahead and will often times ask for changes.

Now heres the thing;

This is all bullsh*t photography that doesnt have much if any effect on the company. What your asking for with the photographs is to open up a can of worms should the photographs reveal too much or not enough. A small company that doesnt rely on photographs wont be affected but for Histogen that photographic evidence has the potential to completely SCREW them has to be played safe. And you dont want to reveal your best photo either. Suppose you do but the final product doesnt work as great as what you presented? What do you do then?

----------


## Desmond84

OK guys, here's a little summary of how clinical trials are conducted:

- *Pre-clinical Phase:* also known as "Proof of concept trials" and is conducted in Animals, Skin grafts, etc

-* Phase 1:* First in man trial. Aim is safety and pharmacokinetic data (~10-20 trial subjects)

- *Phase 2:* Examines safety & efficacy and is usually divided in TWO parts:

*Phase 2a:* is generally known as the "Dose-range finding study" and is conducted in about 50 patients. It examines dose-response relationships, frequency of dosing, and safety & efficacy of different doses, etc. *This is how far Histogen has gotten btw.* 

*Phase 2b:* is known as the "pivotal trial", which is a rigorous study conducted in about 200-300 patients and examines the efficacy of specific doses & frequencies chosen from Phase 2a trial. It is generally longer than Phase 2a trials as well.

- *Phase 3:* is a large, blinded clinical trial conducted in around 2000-3000 patients and generates additional data on safety & efficacy. It generally lasts the same amount of time as Phase 2b trial (in this case 12-18 months).

So, we can  say safely that considering Phase 2b and 3 each would take 14-18 months, Histogen is at least 3 years away from completing all of these trials. It will then require an additional 10 months to acquire FDA approval in US/Europe/Japan/Australia (i.e. Q1 2017). Hopefully though if all goes well, they might be able to release it in South Korea/Singapore 3 months after Phase 3 trial completion (i.e. Q1-2 2016).

Unfortunately, if they don't follow these specific model of trial design, most regulatory bodies would not even consider their application for approval and will require further studies to prove safety and efficacy.

----------


## koolx

> There actually is a process for this, believe it or not, lol. I did photography a couple of weeks ago for an exhibition. I had around 800 photos and the bosses wanted to about 50-150 photographs in the end to upload for the public. However, I had to first weed out the bad ones and then present the good ones. They then pick out the ones they like and I need to do edits (colour correction, sharpening, etc) so all photographs look consistent and proper. The bosses the look at the photos and give the final go ahead and will often times ask for changes.


 come on.. stop pu'ssying around. pics are pics. a pic shouldnt have to be "prepared" to show how effective the drug is. if the drug grows adequate hair growth then any pic would show that no matter what. stop making excuses for the company.

----------


## hellouser

> come on.. stop pu'ssying around. pics are pics. a pic shouldnt have to be "prepared" to show how effective the drug is. if the drug grows adequate hair growth then any pic would show that no matter what. stop making excuses for the company.


 You've never had a corporate job, have you?

----------


## Kiwi

> You've never had a corporate job, have you?


 lol - I was just thinking the same thing.

Everything these guys do needs to be considered. They just cant do what you want them to do. EVERYTHING they do / show / say is going to be scrutinised by their investors, by people at the FDA, by people like us... 

They have no choice but to line up all their ducks and then announce properly with as many questions answered as possible. 

Think about it. If they just take some random "snap" they instantly open themselves up to hundreds of angry balding people like us demanding answers to dumb questions. 

My advice to koolx (not so cool) is to be patient. I HATE it. I REALLLY HATE IT AND I'M SO ANGRY WITH THEM.... but there is no other way. They are on our side. 

If you goto histogen.com and actually read what they said in their last announcement they talk about cosmetic results. Lets wait and see those results and hope they blow our socks off.

----------


## koolx

> lol - I was just thinking the same thing.
> 
> They have no choice but to line up all their ducks and then announce properly with as many questions answered as possible. 
> 
> Think about it. If they just take some random "snap" they instantly open themselves up to hundreds of angry balding people like us demanding answers to dumb questions. 
> 
> My advice to koolx (not so cool) is to be patient. I HATE it. I REALLLY HATE IT AND I'M SO ANGRY WITH THEM.... but there is no other way. They are on our side.


 lots of bald men make excuses for this company. they live in fantasy land cuz they dream of growing hair one day and believe everything this company says. so of course frustrated bald guys will make excuses, even if the company shows little or no hair growth. 

my advice for Kiwi (not very bright) is to stop being so desperate. they promised pics in feb. so far were close to march.. duh

----------


## goingquick

> u wouldnt  **** me??!! whats kind of gay homo sh'it talk is that?? look homo, get ur gay ass out of here. we dont need any gay perverts here or anywhere. i'm reporting ur gay ass now.


 You're reporting him for being...gay?  What decade do you live in?

----------


## Kiwi

> lots of bald men make excuses for this company. they live in fantasy land cuz they dream of growing hair one day and believe everything this company says. so of course frustrated bald guys will make excuses, even if the company shows little or no hair growth. 
> 
> my advice for Kiwi (not very bright) is to stop being so desperate. they promised pics in feb. so far were close to march.. duh


 Dude. You're exceptionally thick and very naive.

I've been observing this site, histogen, aderans, replicel and all the others that have come and gone bust for about 5 years now. In the 5 years I've been obsessively studying... histogen and aderans are your best bet of getting your hair back thus far.

Dont get me wrong. I'm ready for them to fail. If they do I'm going to get SMP in Milan and shave my head. 

I hope you've got a plan too  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> u've never gotten laid, have u?


 Wow kid, you got me there.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Though your response does indicate you've never had a corporate job, lol. Tell you what; get a desk job and climb the corporate ladder. When you do that, come back and tell us what brand strategies and press releases look like as well as how much time is spent on preparing them, what decisions are made, how many people are involved, how many phone calls are made, how many boardroom meetings are held, how many conference calls go through, how presentations are made to investors, what information is made present to investors, what feedback is implemented from investors, etc.

You think this shit is as easy as going to your local camera shop, grabbing a point and shoot, taking a picture in auto and calling it a day? Well guess what dipshit, thats been done before and when it has the same kind of whiny dolts such as yourself were bitching about the inaccuracy of the photos showing all the information. Which is why I've posted many responses at length detailing the work involved in dead accurate and consistent photography (click here). So even if pictures were provided, do you know whats required to get the same results from before and after (I say this because you probably didnt read the in the link I posted earlier in this reply).

You really do seem to think everything is a 5 minute job without even taking into consideration the possible repercussions. Like I said, you've clearly never had a corporate job.

Take a seat kid.

----------


## UK_

> Wow kid, you got me there. 
> 
> *Though your response does indicate you've never had a corporate job, lol. Tell you what; get a desk job and climb the corporate ladder. When you do that, come back and tell us what brand strategies and press releases look like as well as how much time is spent on preparing them, what decisions are made, how many people are involved, how many phone calls are made, how many boardroom meetings are held, how many conference calls go through, how presentations are made to investors, what information is made present to investors, what feedback is implemented from investors, etc.*
> 
> You think this shit is as easy as going to your local camera shop, grabbing a point and shoot, taking a picture in auto and calling it a day? Well guess what dipshit, thats been done before and when it has the same kind of whiny dolts such as yourself were bitching about the inaccuracy of the photos showing all the information. Which is why I've posted many responses at length detailing the work involved in dead accurate and consistent photography (click here). So even if pictures were provided, do you know whats required to get the same results from before and after (I say this because you probably didnt read the in the link I posted earlier in this reply).
> 
> You really do seem to think everything is a 5 minute job without even taking into consideration the possible repercussions. Like I said, you've clearly never had a corporate job.
> 
> Take a seat kid.


 Who in their right mind would ever wanna do that? :Confused:

----------


## hellouser

> Who in their right mind would ever wanna do that?


 Get a job or go through the strenuous corporate process? I'll take the job as I both need and want money, but I'd rather not deal with the corporate bollocks but that is how it goes unfortunately; many people overlooking many different areas and revising everything until basically everyone is happy.

----------


## UK_

> Get a job or go through the strenuous corporate process? I'll take the job as I both need and want money, but I'd rather not deal with the corporate bollocks but that is how it goes unfortunately; many people overlooking many different areas and revising everything until basically everyone is happy.


 There are two things I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy: baldness & the corporate world.

----------


## hellouser

> There are two things I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy: baldness & the corporate world.


 I hate the corporate world too but thankfully my current job isn't really all that corporate. I'm a lead web designer/developer but mostly doing all digital media and marketing for 3 newspapers and the team consists of only 8 people. No one here is climbing over anyones back to get to the top so its a very relaxed environment.

But I've done full-on corporate before and I agree; its a kick in the teeth.

----------


## koolx

unbelievable.. histogen still didnt post pics of the 12-month trial of histogen as they promised.. 
*
looks like histogen is a failure.*

----------


## garethbale

> unbelievable.. histogen still didnt post pics of the 12-month trial of histogen as they promised.. 
> *
> looks like histogen is a failure.*


 What are you talking about?

Their data is still being analysed and an announcement is expected in the next couple of months

----------


## hellouser

> unbelievable.. histogen still didnt post pics of the 12-month trial of histogen as they promised.. 
> *
> looks like histogen is a failure.*


 OMG! Delayed info means failure!

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## koolx

> What are you talking about?
> 
> Their data is still being analysed and an announcement is expected in the next couple of months


 exactly what i'm talking about.

we're not talkig about data. we're talking about pics that histogen PROMISED to post in their 12-month trial in feb. we're aday away from march now. since they didnt live up to their promise they failed as a potential treatment option.

----------


## koolx

> OMG! Delayed info means failure!


 yes it does. esp when it was promised to be published this month.

----------


## garethbale

> exactly what i'm talking about.
> 
> we're not talkig about data. we're talking about pics that histogen PROMISED to post in their 12-month trial. since they didnt live up to their promise they failed as a potential treatment option.


 Where did they make this promise?

How do you know they will not post photos?  They haven't even made a public announcement.  I'm not sure why you assume today is the day that pictures would have been posted...

----------


## hellouser

> exactly what i'm talking about.
> 
> we're not talkig about data. we're talking about pics that histogen PROMISED to post in their 12-month trial in feb. we're aday away from march now. since they didnt live up to their promise they failed as a potential treatment option.


 LMFAO!

So its not because they released photos showing failed results, its that they have yet to show photos that means its a failure.

Brilliant logic. Just brilliant.

Out of curiousity, does the forum have a feature where one can block members from having their comments show up on the forum?

----------


## 534623

> histogen and aderans are your *best bet* of getting your hair back thus far.


 That's good to hear....

Is anyone aware about a website or something where I can bet $100,000 against this bet? 
Ohh, I like these easy and quick gains...

----------


## garethbale

> That's good to hear....
> 
> Is anyone aware about a website or something where I can bet $100,000 against this bet? 
> Ohh, I like these easy and quick gains...


 Yeah...if I give you my bank details will you transfer $100,000 across.  Of course if I lose I'll transfer you $200,000 back.

Sound fair?

----------


## Breaking Bald

...lets keep it together people. No news might be good news...maybe...

----------


## Winston

To all users, harassment of any kind will not be tolerated on this forum. There are reasonable ways to get your points across without name calling and harassing other users. If you can not control this type of behavior I suggest that you participate on another forum.

As stated before, I will be posting an updated set of rules and policies for this message forum. All posts that do not fit within the parameters of these guidelines will no longer be hosted on BTT. Members who ignore these policies will have their accounts put into moderation.

----------


## didi

Winston

Why private messaging dnt work

----------


## Winston

> if harassment wont be tolerated on this forum as u stated, why do u allow breaking bald and garethbale to post harassing posts? 
> 
> i will keep posting what i think is justified until youre fair enough to remove their comments. thanks u.


 Feel free to point out any posts in this thread that would be considered by any reasonable person to be inappropriate or harassing and they will be removed as well.

Again, harassment of any kind will not be tolerated on this forum. There are reasonable ways to get your points across without name calling and harassing other users. If you can not control this type of behavior I suggest that you participate on another forum.

As stated before, I will be posting an updated set of rules and policies for this message forum. All posts that do not fit within the parameters of these guidelines will no longer be hosted on BTT. Members who ignore these policies will have their accounts put into moderation. Since you have indicated by quoting my last post that you have been made privy to this fact, you will not receive any further warnings once these rules are posted.

----------


## UK Boy

> exactly what i'm talking about.
> 
> we're not talkig about data. we're talking about pics that histogen PROMISED to post in their 12-month trial in feb. we're aday away from march now. since they didnt live up to their promise they failed as a potential treatment option.


 I'm not 100% sure because I didn't get round to finding the interview and listening to it but I'm gonna wager that it was Dr. Ziering who promised to post pics in Feb, I'd imagine that he said it during the interview Spencer did with him following the ISHRS back in Oct. Now although Dr. Ziering is connected to Histogen he is not Histogen, if Gail Naughton had promised photos and then not lived up to the promise then you could blame Histogen. Dr. Ziering is running his own trial of HSC  seperate from the official clinical trials that Histogen is running. He has previously provided photos from his own trial and although they showed good cosmetic improvement on first glance they were soon 'discredited' by members of the forum and also members of the ISHRS such as Dr. Cole as the photos were not taken from exactly the same angle and in exactly the same lighting etc. The thing is I don't think Dr. Ziering thought about all these things when he took the photos, the photos won't be used to prove Histogen's effects to the FDA cos they're not part of the offical study, so he didn't go all ultra professional when he took the pics, he just literally 'took some pics' showing the same person and the same area, don't think he expected them to be picked to pieces, he was trying to do us a favour and show people what he was excited about - cosmetically significant regrowth in a very short period of time.

So basically what I'm saying is don't blame Histogen, they never promised the pics and certainly don't start shouting that Histogen has failed cos of it, there was a guy who started shouting that Histogen had failed back in 2011 cos they changed their website and he soon had to take it all back.

Now if you want you could blame Dr. Ziering for not keeping his promise but to be honest I don't blame him for not rushing to post his pics of the forum given the response he got from the last ones. You only have to read posts from the likes of Ironman, just look back on this thread, he said he wants to know when Histogen are going to post their 'chinese website style photos'. Would you really be al that bothered to spend the time posting photos when members like that are then going to use them to fuel their arguements as to why HSC doesn't work? Back in 2011 Dr. Ziering actually used to come on the firum and answer people's questions in regards to Histogen but now he doesn't bother cos of all the negative users harassing him.

Histogen have said that they'll make an announcement in spring so until then we'll just have to wait. Spencer will prob arrange an interview with Dr. Ziering following the announcement and hopefully he'll be nice enough to provide more pics then.

----------


## koolx

> Now if you want you could blame Dr. Ziering for not keeping his promise but to be honest I don't blame him for not rushing to post his pics of the forum given the response he got from the last ones.


 u dont get it. and ur convoluting the issue. it doesnt matter if the company promised the pics or not, they still said that they would publish the pics in feb. they failed to do so cuz histogen is a failure. thats the bottom line. if histogen were a true success the pics would show that. 

its been more than a yr that test patients were injected with histogen. it doesnt take much to snap a pic and post one-yr long results. since histogen failed to do so, it means theyre disapointed with the results.

----------


## re22

Where did they say that they were going to post pictures in February?

----------


## koolx

> Where did they say that they were going to post pictures in February?


 read back previous pages and check out the november interview.

----------


## hellouser

> it doesnt take much to snap a pic and post one-yr long results. since histogen failed to do so, it means theyre disapointed with the results.


 LOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!! 

That is some of the most ridiculous logic I've ever heard! Holy shit, how can you fail so bad?

----------


## Thinning87

> u dont get it. and ur convoluting the issue. it doesnt matter if the company promised the pics or not, they still said that they would publish the pics in feb. they failed to do so cuz histogen is a failure. thats the bottom line. if histogen were a true success the pics would show that. 
> 
> its been more than a yr that test patients were injected with histogen. it doesnt take much to snap a pic and post one-yr long results. since histogen failed to do so, it means theyre disapointed with the results.


 You're missing the point - it's not the company that promised the pictures, it's Dr. Ziering that said he should have pictures in Feb - Very different thing.

I don't understand why you're freaking out honestly - there's probably going to be a big announcement in 2 weeks so just rest up a bit and think of something else.

----------


## koolx

> LOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!! 
> 
> That is some of the most ridiculous logic I've ever heard! Holy shit, how can you fail so bad?


 LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

u seriously got comprehension issues, youre the stupidest bald person i ever came across.. how can u be so stupid and gay?

----------


## hellouser

> LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> u seriously got comprehension issues, youre the stupidest bald person i ever came across.. how can u be so stupid and gay?


 Gay? Really? Resorting to homophobic insults? Is that your hail mary rebuttal?

----------


## koolx

> Gay? Really? Resorting to homophobic insults? Is that your hail mary rebuttal?


 hail mary rebutal??? did u think that up all by yourself or did your boyfriend help u?

----------


## bananana

I just got a mail from mrs. Brandt from Histogen 
(I asked about the new results 2 months back):

*"Dear xxx,
Thank you for your interest and message. In response to your questions, Histogen has recently completed a Phase I/II clinical trial of HSC, and results from the final timepoints of that trial are still being analyzed.

You can find the most recent announcement from this trial here: http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#38, and we anticipate sharing final results soon. Please do check back to our website in the next couple of months for the latest HSC and Histogen news.

Thank you"*

Cant wait for those results..

----------


## Henkeh91

> I just got a mail from mrs. Brandt from Histogen 
> (I asked about the new results 2 months back):
> 
> *"Dear xxx,
> Thank you for your interest and message. In response to your questions, Histogen has recently completed a Phase I/II clinical trial of HSC, and results from the final timepoints of that trial are still being analyzed.
> 
> You can find the most recent announcement from this trial here: http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#38, and we anticipate sharing final results soon. Please do check back to our website in the next couple of months for the latest HSC and Histogen news.
> 
> Thank you"*
> ...


 Hopefully some great results!

----------


## koolx

> I just got a mail from mrs. Brandt from Histogen 
> (I asked about the new results 2 months back):
> 
> *"Dear xxx,
> Thank you for your interest and message. In response to your questions, Histogen has recently completed a Phase I/II clinical trial of HSC, and results from the final timepoints of that trial are still being analyzed.
> 
> You can find the most recent announcement from this trial here: http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#38, and we anticipate sharing final results soon. Please do check back to our website in the next couple of months for the latest HSC and Histogen news.
> 
> Thank you"*
> ...


 i appreciate the update. but this *DOES NOT* excuse histogen's failure of posting pics that they proclaimed they would for feb. its been more than a yr. it doesnt take a genius to snap a pic of test subjects after 12 months of testing. again, they said they would post the pics in feb. 

why is it so hard for everyone to accept this? its cuz ppl are in denial. theyre so desperate and so hopeful that maybe this drug could be their cure. i got news for u type of guys. its far from a total cure. the reason why histogen failed to post results after a yr is cuz theyre disapointed with the results and know that u will be also.

----------


## hellouser

> i appreciate the update. but this *DOES NOT* excuse histogen's failure of posting pics that they proclaimed they would for feb. its been more than a yr. it doesnt take a genius to snap a pic of test subjects after 12 months of testing. again, they said they would post the pics in feb. 
> 
> why is it so hard for everyone to accept this? its cuz ppl are in denial. theyre so desperate and so hopeful that maybe this drug could be their cure. i got news for u type of guys. its far from a total cure. the reason why histogen failed to post results after a yr is cuz theyre disapointed with the results and know that u will be also.


 You have ZERO information about what their results are or are not. Quit lying to everyone on the forum, you troll.

----------


## koolx

> You have ZERO information about what their results are or are not. Quit lying to everyone on the forum, you troll.


 exactly my point.. duhhh!!!!!!!! stop defending histogen so much.. ur coming across like u work for the company.. u homo.

----------


## Conpecia

> i appreciate the update. but this *DOES NOT* excuse histogen's failure of posting pics that they proclaimed they would for feb. its been more than a yr. it doesnt take a genius to snap a pic of test subjects after 12 months of testing. again, they said they would post the pics in feb. 
> 
> why is it so hard for everyone to accept this? its cuz ppl are in denial. theyre so desperate and so hopeful that maybe this drug could be their cure. i got news for u type of guys. its far from a total cure. the reason why histogen failed to post results after a yr is cuz theyre disapointed with the results and know that u will be also.


 
gotta agree with koolx here. if they had game-changing pics we'd know by now. they wouldn't agree to post pics in february, then make a huge step toward the cure, then not show the pics. wouldn't happen. i don't expect anything big from the world congress whatsoever, and i don't expect anything from histogen for at least 3 years if not longer.

----------


## rdawg

> gotta agree with koolx here. if they had game-changing pics we'd know by now. they wouldn't agree to post pics in february, then make a huge step toward the cure, then not show the pics. wouldn't happen. i don't expect anything big from the world congress whatsoever, and i don't expect anything from histogen for at least 3 years if not longer.


 pretty baseless comment, last update was in october which was partways through phase II, the next update will be in May which is quite soon after and is after Phase II has been completed.

Many, many companies choose to wait for conferences to reveal information, phase II has not been complete for long and they probably decided it was just better to wait for a more public venue to post complete results than give us those pics in February. 

I dont take anything positive or negative from this, but they have been quite frequent with their updates, June, then October, Now May, never going more than 5-6 months between them.

----------


## koolx

> pretty baseless comment, last update was in october which was partways through phase II, the next update will be in May which is quite soon after and is after Phase II has been completed.
> 
> Many, many companies choose to wait for conferences to reveal information, phase II has not been complete for long and they probably decided it was just better to wait for a more public venue to post complete results than give us those pics in February. 
> 
> I dont take anything positive or negative from this, but they have been quite frequent with their updates, June, then October, Now May, never going more than 5-6 months between them.


 pretty baseless observation. its the same old blah, blah, blah.. keep dreaming people.

----------


## hellouser

> gotta agree with koolx here. if they had game-changing pics we'd know by now. they wouldn't agree to post pics in february, then make a huge step toward the cure, then not show the pics. wouldn't happen. i don't expect anything big from the world congress whatsoever, and i don't expect anything from histogen for at least 3 years if not longer.


 Nothing is official so everything you guys are saying are assumptions and pure speculation.

Wait for the release of their photos or presentation and then we'll know.

----------


## koolx

> Nothing is official so everything you guys are saying are assumptions and pure speculation.
> 
> Wait for the release of their photos or presentation and then we'll know.


 this has NOTHING to do with speculation. what are u talking about?? what does speculation have to do with a company failing to post pics in feb like they said they would?

----------


## Thinning87

> this has NOTHING to do with speculation. what are u talking about?? what does speculation have to do with a company failing to post pics in feb like they said they would?


 dude - again? 

Ziering mentioned having pictures in Feb., not "the company". There's a huge difference.

Now relax for a second, and let's just see where Histogen goes with HSC, might be awesome, maybe not, maybe a failure, we'll find out, but there's no reason to freak out.

----------


## Thinning87

> lmaoooooooooooo!!!! is that they only way u get it up? viagra? and u have to pay someone for sex? looks like u dont have a sex life if u got to cheat on ur wife to go to the strip bar and pay someone for sex.. hahahaha


 Well son unfortunately age will do that to ya, my wife is no longer so good looking either you know, so it's hard to get horny!! 

But thank God vor the Viagra... the girls at the strip club love it I swear

----------


## clandestine

Agreed, koolx is trolling you all along and deriving satisfaction from your participation. I haven't read the last 2 pages for this reason, it's terribly obvious.

Better to ignore..

----------


## Thinning87

thanks guys, I was feeling hurt before your intervention but now I know someone supports me... 

by the way the Strip Club was awesome last night!! And my grandkids did not suspect anything I think

----------


## Conpecia

> pretty baseless comment, last update was in october which was partways through phase II, the next update will be in May which is quite soon after and is after Phase II has been completed.
> 
> Many, many companies choose to wait for conferences to reveal information, phase II has not been complete for long and they probably decided it was just better to wait for a more public venue to post complete results than give us those pics in February. 
> 
> I dont take anything positive or negative from this, but they have been quite frequent with their updates, June, then October, Now May, never going more than 5-6 months between them.


 if the results were substantial enough you'd see photographs. there is no greater public venue than the internet. it makes no sense to be cryptic about a breakthrough unless you are at risk for intellectual property infringement, and a photo demonstrating dramatic regrowth poses no such threat. it would generate hype and all eyes would be on your company at any conference. we're not talking about studies or findings in a statistical sense, we're talking about a photograph showing cosmetic regrowth on a bald scalp. i'm actually curious as to any reason why they would not do that if they had mind-blowing results. anyone?

it is safe to assume that there will not be any mind-blowing advancement coming from histogen. it's still an assumption, sure. but i'm trying to look out for newcomers to the forum and manage expectations, as one of the biggest letdowns of my life was when there was insane hype about replicel last year and the results were, well, inconsequential at best.

that being said, i don't doubt we'll get "good" news from histogen. but i don't want people thinking we're all gonna be cured by 2015.

----------


## hellouser

> if the results were substantial enough you'd see photographs. *there is no greater public venue than the internet.* it makes no sense to be cryptic about a breakthrough unless you are at risk for intellectual property infringement, and a photo demonstrating dramatic regrowth poses no such threat. it would generate hype and all eyes would be on your company at any conference. we're not talking about studies or findings in a statistical sense, we're talking about a photograph showing cosmetic regrowth on a bald scalp. i'm actually curious as to any reason why they would not do that if they had mind-blowing results. anyone?
> 
> it is safe to assume that there will not be any mind-blowing advancement coming from histogen. it's still an assumption, sure. but i'm trying to look out for newcomers to the forum and manage expectations, as one of the biggest letdowns of my life was when there was insane hype about replicel last year and the results were, well, inconsequential at best.
> 
> that being said, i don't doubt we'll get "good" news from histogen. but i don't want people thinking we're all gonna be cured by 2015.


 Doesn't do much without an event backing it to spread awareness like the Conference would, it supports spreading the word.

Releasing photos during the conference is a great strategy (assuming this is what theyre going after).

----------


## Conpecia

guess we'll see... mainly just looking after newer members who could stumble on this page and think they'll be cured in two years. i'm pessimistic about it, but that's just me. would love to eat my own words in this case.

----------


## FearTheLoss

I would say based on histogen's early results....they could be considered a "cure" by nw2-4s....as long as there is no unexpected bombshell to their treatment.

----------


## Conpecia

> I would say based on histogen's early results....they could be considered a "cure" by nw2-4s....as long as there is no unexpected bombshell to their treatment.


 i'd agree with this. i just don't think it will be before 2016 at the earliest. for me personally, i'll probably be beyond help in 3 years...

----------


## Thinning87

> hey everyone.. dont worry about these trolls.. ignore Breaking Bald, hes a troll.. by what hes said so far, he seems like he works for histogen and is sexually frustrated that girls dont look his bald way.. so hes got issues and i bet hes a histogen worker.
> 
> lets all be positive even if theres company reps disguising themselves as forum users, like Breaking Bald, who dont want u all to know the truth.. and want to keep fooling u about histogen.


 God dude give it a rest if you keep saying the truth flat out like that I'm gonna have another titty attack!

----------


## Breaking Bald

> hey everyone.. dont worry about these trolls.. ignore Breaking Bald, hes a troll.. by what hes said so far, he seems like he works for histogen and is sexually frustrated that girls dont look his bald way.. so hes got issues and i bet hes a histogen worker.
> 
> lets all be positive even if theres company reps disguising themselves as forum users, like Breaking Bald, who dont want u all to know the truth.. and want to keep fooling u about histogen.


 HAHA, yep that's it, you caught me! I work for Histogen and my hair loss is dire because I tried the treatment and it didn't work!! Well done Koolx you exposed me, you are so smaaaarrtt!

----------


## Thinning87

> if the results were substantial enough you'd see photographs. there is no greater public venue than the internet. it makes no sense to be cryptic about a breakthrough unless you are at risk for intellectual property infringement, and a photo demonstrating dramatic regrowth poses no such threat. it would generate hype and all eyes would be on your company at any conference. we're not talking about studies or findings in a statistical sense, we're talking about a photograph showing cosmetic regrowth on a bald scalp. i'm actually curious as to any reason why they would not do that if they had mind-blowing results. anyone?
> 
> it is safe to assume that there will not be any mind-blowing advancement coming from histogen. it's still an assumption, sure. but i'm trying to look out for newcomers to the forum and manage expectations, as one of the biggest letdowns of my life was when there was insane hype about replicel last year and the results were, well, inconsequential at best.
> 
> that being said, i don't doubt we'll get "good" news from histogen. but i don't want people thinking we're all gonna be cured by 2015.


 I disagree I think any company that has a good product tries to hold up and not give out any information until the day they launch an effective marketing campaign before commercialization. They might benefit from rumors to get early adopters interested, but not by directly releasing any significant information without even having completed the clinical trials (since they don't fully know what the true potential of the product is and therefore they may set expectations too high or low and create confusion).

----------


## Conpecia

> I disagree I think any company that has a good product tries to hold up and not give out any information until the day they launch an effective marketing campaign before commercialization. They might benefit from rumors to get early adopters interested, but not by directly releasing any significant information without even having completed the clinical trials (since they don't fully know what the true potential of the product is and therefore they may set expectations too high or low and create confusion).


 you know i agree with you. it just dawned on me that they could snap a pic of a full head of hair, then something could go terribly wrong, and they'd have the entire bald world expecting the cure and up in arms when they had to break the bad news.

----------


## rdawg

> you know i agree with you. it just dawned on me that they could snap a pic of a full head of hair, then something could go terribly wrong, and they'd have the entire bald world expecting the cure and up in arms when they had to break the bad news.


 bingo, definitely could be a reason.

anyway this place needs to be modded, I dont like coming on here to silly fights that go on for two pages.

Keep this site informative and discussion based, let's not turn it into a shouting match.

----------


## Thinning87

> you know i agree with you. it just dawned on me that they could snap a pic of a full head of hair, then something could go terribly wrong, and they'd have the entire bald world expecting the cure and up in arms when they had to break the bad news.


 Yes indeed - the value of the company is a function of the value of future sales - so messing things up by releasing too much data ahead of proper productr launch would be a mistake no one in any company wants to make.

I frankly doubt Histogen will be it, but I do think it will be a good weapon if combined with other stuff. We'll find out I guess!

But yeah, let's not expect some groundbreaking revelation at the congress, and let's keep in mind companies attend the number 1 reason why companies attend is business development.

In particular Histogen needs a partner to licence the product to before they can launch it and finish clinical trials (SOURCE)... so in my opinion that is also the news we should look forward to, not so much final phase 2 results (which though may give us an idea of how long HSC effects will last). 

I think we all have to wait for phase 3 to have a definitive idea of what to expect from the product...

----------


## koolx

> Yes indeed - the value of the company is a function of the value of future sales - so messing things up by releasing too much data ahead of proper productr launch would be a mistake no one in any company wants to make.
> 
> But yeah, let's not expect some groundbreaking revelation at the congress, and let's keep in mind companies attend the number 1 reason why companies attend is business development.


 when is the congress?

i think ur sugarcoating things. the company said they would release pics in feb regardless of what u speculate for its company strategy. by not doing so isnt smart company strategy - it could hurt its reputation.

just to correct u with all due respect, a company's value is not based on the value of its future sales, its based on the value of its expected future sales.. just letting u know.

----------


## hellouser

> when is the congress?
> 
> i think ur sugarcoating things. the company said they would release pics in feb regardless of what u speculate for its company strategy. by not doing so isnt smart company strategy - it could hurt its reputation.
> 
> just to correct u with all due respect, a company's value is not based on the value of its future sales, its based on the value of its expected future sales.. just letting u know.


 Youre not in any position to make any kind of judgement of what constitutes right or wrong launch strategies. You're not a CEO and going by your comments in the forum, you've got the IQ of a fvcking rock.

----------


## Thinning87

> when is the congress?
> 
> i think ur sugarcoating things. the company said they would release pics in feb regardless of what u speculate for its company strategy. by not doing so isnt smart company strategy - it could hurt its reputation.


 Again - Ziering (an outside consultant for the company) said he planned on having some pictures in February. That is not the same of what you're saying, and everytime I point that out to you, you just start insulting me and the conversation gets stuck with you producing no logical feedback.




> just to correct u with all due respect, a company's value is not based on the value of its future sales, its based on the value of its expected future sales.. just letting u know.


 The value of the company NOW is based on expected future sales, correct, but the most recent sources show they do not intend to sell before product launch - hence it is correct to just talk about future sales affecting the future value of the company.

----------


## koolx

> Again - Ziering (an outside consultant for the company) said he planned on having some pictures in February. That is not the same of what you're saying, and everytime I point that out to you, you just start insulting me and the conversation gets stuck with you producing no logical feedback.
> 
> The value of the company NOW is based on expected future sales, correct, but the most recent sources show they do not intend to sell before product launch - hence it is correct to just talk about future sales affecting the future value of the company.


 sounds good.. thanks.

----------


## Jairus

How will Histogen affect a receding hairline?

Will we still need to use DHT blockers?

----------


## rdawg

> How will Histogen affect a receding hairline?
> 
> Will we still need to use DHT blockers?


 Ziering stated and you could see from some of the 6th month pictures that most if not all vellus hairs should return to terminal, even in the receding hairline.

That one women practically grew her entire hairline back due to having a lot of vellus hairs, but in fairness the other results werent as good as hers(at the 6-7 month mark). 

So i'd say it would do alot if you catch the loss early on, later I'm not so sure,  and IMO yes a DHT blocker is still needed, but we'll see if that's still the case when they test out more frequent doses.

----------


## Pentarou

Compoundability is the key issue with Histogen. If more injections = more regrowth, it'll be a genuine superweapon against AGA.

----------


## Thinning87

> Compoundability is the key issue with Histogen. If more injections = more regrowth, it'll be a genuine superweapon against AGA.


 Yes indeed! We all know it's a great weapon already, but IMO those above 15 years old now cannot rely on it solely because it will be released in some years.... I still haven't given up on Aderans, if only one of these alternative companies were able to deliver something within the next 5 years, we'd virtually have results comparable to those of a cure...

----------


## Pentarou

I really don't think that ARI is going anywhere. All we can hope for is that if it goes under, it doesn't take lots of useful patentable concepts down with it, as happened with Intercytex.

----------

