# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  adipose-derived stem cell protein extract

## hgs1989

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

check it out really amazing results are show. it also mention the procedure can be done with current technology. several sessions are required. trichoscan showed 83&#37; increase in hairs (see figure.7 before treatment 29 hairs in the area and after 53. (53-29)/29 = 83%). full head pictures are also available.figure.3 shows a male without fin and figure 4 shows another on fin, but I doubt that fin would make that difference in 6 months.  sad it is not approved by the FDA. but why ? it is similar to ACell + prp. it is like histogen on steroids. any how check it out. there are clinics doing research on other treatment adipose-derived stem cell without the protein extract thing. http://www.stemcellrevolution.com/cu...r-restoration/

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## burtandernie

Too early it sounds like to really say. I will say maybe my standards are too high but all those pictures just look like balding people that were balding before and balding after. I didnt even notice a difference. I guess your missing so much hair by the time its noticeable there is just no way to get enough of it back I dont know

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## downandout

results look amazing.. Lets get this out already.

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## hgs1989

> results look amazing.. Lets get this out already.


 it is out in South Korea I guess. http://www.prostemics.co.kr/cosmetic/aape.php this company provide it and it it easily injected using mesotherapy. the comaony is mentioned in the paper. the concept is similar to histogen I guess.




> Too early it sounds like to really say. I will say maybe my standards are too high but all those pictures just look like balding people that were balding before and balding after. I didnt even notice a difference. I guess your missing so much hair by the time its noticeable there is just no way to get enough of it back I dont know


 not to early I found an  article about it from 2007 check the link above. I can't translate it but they seem to sell it.  and your standards are HIGH. the 1st pic the guy almost restored his hair line.  the second guy results are amazing in the crown. remember it is a continuous treatment. I think results will improve with sessions till you achieve desirable results or no more generation is achieved. from then you can use a small transplant and keep your hair with minoxidil. I think within a year you can be over with it.

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## nameless

I can't find any pictures in the link. All I see is a story.

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## nameless

Oh I found the pics. They're in the first link.  Are the pics real? If they are then I think the pics show some regrowth.

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## downandout

so all they do is perform a little bit of lipo and derive some ASC's from it and inject it..  Sound simple and should be no reason for FDA approval

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## hgs1989

> so all they do is perform a little bit of lipo and derive some ASC's from it and inject it..  Sound simple and should be no reason for FDA approval


 exactly, another technique mentioned in the link above where they can mass produce the growth factors which I think would require FDA. intresetingly, tne growth factors they produced are much more concentrated than that of histogen.

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## downandout

I wonder if they are working on getting the HARG therapy released in the U.S. anytime soon..  This to me seems like it could be a possible cure for a lot of people out there..  Very interested to hear some more info on this being that those studies are 2 years old

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## nameless

Where can we get the exact treatment that was used in the study?  I would not be interested in a similar treatment. It would have to be the exact same as the one in the study.

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## nameless

> it is out in South Korea I guess. http://www.prostemics.co.kr/cosmetic/aape.php this company provide it and it it easily injected using mesotherapy. the comaony is mentioned in the paper. the concept is similar to histogen I guess.
> 
> 
> not to early I found an  article about it from 2007 check the link above. I can't translate it but they seem to sell it.  and your standards are HIGH. the 1st pic the guy almost restored his hair line.  the second guy results are amazing in the crown. remember it is a continuous treatment. I think results will improve with sessions till you achieve desirable results or no more generation is achieved. from then you can use a small transplant and keep your hair with minoxidil. I think within a year you can be over with it.


 The company is not offering injections at a clinic. It sells you a product that you buy for home use on your own. In the study didn't clinicians inject something into the subjects/patients????

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## hiko

How is this not an available treatment?  These results utterly DESTROY what we've seen from Histogen so far.  And only after 6 months.  Who knows what further injections could do.  God, why can't some company try and market this treatment?  Would it even require FDA approval?  

We have all these scientists and groups like Replicel basically trying to recreate hair follicles from scratch and spending decades in research when something simple like this might be all that is needed for regrowth and hairline thickening.  For early stage hair loss this seems like a flat out cure.

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## Swooping

> How is this not an available treatment?  These results utterly DESTROY what we've seen from Histogen so far.  And only after 6 months.  Who knows what further injections could do.  God, why can't some company try and market this treatment?  Would it even require FDA approval?  
> 
> We have all these scientists and groups like Replicel basically trying to recreate hair follicles from scratch and spending decades in research when something simple like this might be all that is needed for regrowth and hairline thickening.  For early stage hair loss this seems like a flat out cure.


 I am getting it, will let you know. Will inject it around my hairline and temples.

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## joely

Swooping, good to see someone having a go at this may i ask what country you are in? And are you going to be doing this at home yourself?

Also if you don't mind what's the rough price and how do you find out exactly how to self medicate with it?

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## hiko

> I am getting it, will let you know. Will inject it around my hairline and temples.


 Cool.  Based on the research paper, this is essentially the same type of treatment as Histogen.

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## joachim

what, we can do this on our own?
and it's being sold already?
what about safety?

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## hellouser

> I am getting it, will let you know. Will inject it around my hairline and temples.


 Where and how are you getting the injections??

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## nameless

> I am getting it, will let you know. Will inject it around my hairline and temples.


 
Is it the exact same formula that is in this study?

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

We need to get the exact same formula the staff used in that study.

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## hgs1989

> I am getting it, will let you know. Will inject it around my hairline and temples.


 wouldn't recommed it ! but hey if you wanna go for it I guess you need a mezo gun. but how are you buying it. the website is only in korean and google could not translate it for me. please update us on the price and what will you get.

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## hellouser

> wouldn't recommed it ! but hey if you wanna go for it I guess you need a mezo gun. but how are you buying it. the website is only in korean and google could not translate it for me. please update us on the price and what will you get.


 Meso gun costs under $1,000. I'd pay much more than that to improve my hair. You can get some even off eBay.

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## hgs1989

> I am getting it, will let you know. Will inject it around my hairline and temples.


 Would you please document your results and method?

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## Swooping

> Where and how are you getting the injections??


 Have a friend in south-korea who works at a hospital. I think they only give it out to physicians or hospitals. I guess it will be lyophilized powder i will reconstitute it and inject with a slin pin or something like that. Will let you guys know more though when I will get more information.

Here is a movie i just found about them;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrz3Rp4JwDM

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## hellouser

> Have a friend in south-korea who works at a hospital. I think they only give it out to physicians or hospitals. I guess it will be lyophilized powder i will reconstitute it and inject with a slin pin or something like that. Will let you guys know more though when I will get more information.
> 
> Here is a movie i just found about them;
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrz3Rp4JwDM


 Swooping, THANK YOU!

You're a freaking god if this works out. If this works, you need to hook us up with your connection. Hell, I'm willing to pay handsomely to BOTH of you for treatment... results pending, of course, lol.

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## joachim

> Have a friend in south-korea who works at a hospital. I think they only give it out to physicians or hospitals. I guess it will be lyophilized powder i will reconstitute it and inject with a slin pin or something like that. Will let you guys know more though when I will get more information.
> 
> Here is a movie i just found about them;
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrz3Rp4JwDM


 looks legit somehow.
for how long is this on the market already?
what do we know about the company in general? is it legit?

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## hgs1989

it should work. I asked Dr. Gardner if injecting growth factors that are expressed during anagen and he said yes but doesn't like the idea of injection because of side effects. the treament has been there in korea for a while it seems. these growth factors are awesome. 
see: 
related to HGF: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...23181100001249
for others in the video check the following link on page 105. the theory is strong behind growth factors. 
http://www.eksid.com/online/pdf/4-2-103.pdf

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## hellouser

> http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf
> 
> check it out really amazing results are show. it also mention the procedure can be done with current technology. several sessions are required. trichoscan showed 83% increase in hairs (see figure.7 before treatment 29 hairs in the area and after 53. (53-29)/29 = 83%). full head pictures are also available.figure.3 shows a male without fin and figure 4 shows another on fin, but I doubt that fin would make that difference in 6 months.  sad it is not approved by the FDA. but why ? it is similar to ACell + prp. it is like histogen on steroids. any how check it out. there are clinics doing research on other treatment adipose-derived stem cell without the protein extract thing. http://www.stemcellrevolution.com/cu...r-restoration/


 Did anyone save that PDF?! It's not online anymore!

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## Artista

*'Joe from Staten'*   had strongly recommended that I check this thread out. 

I must say that this is *impressive* ,,so far.  

Some of you may remember me saying that , since the end of 2013 I have had a personal 'premonition' that *2014 would be a VERY GOOD year* for us all. 

I was speaking in general terms of course. 
*Desmond's* experiences out in* S.Korea* this year has provided me/us with even more of a notion that good things are headed our way!
*Stay Strong brothers. *

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## nliyan25

> Swooping, THANK YOU!
> 
> You're a freaking god if this works out. If this works, you need to hook us up with your connection. Hell, I'm willing to pay handsomely to BOTH of you for treatment... results pending, of course, lol.


 same here!

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## Swooping

I wasn't really aware of such a solution being commercially available except growth factors derived from e.coli. But that is obviously different. It has definitely sparked my interest. Let's just hope it works as published in the paper.. 

Let me get some more information about this, availability, price etc. I'll let you guys know.

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## TheSwingingGate

Very curious to hear your feedback.

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## hellouser

> I wasn't really aware of such a solution being commercially available except growth factors derived from e.coli. But that is obviously different. It has definitely sparked my interest. Let's just hope it works as published in the paper.. 
> 
> Let me get some more information about this, availability, price etc. I'll let you guys know.


 Equally important will be how long the positive effects will last for hair?

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## joachim

> Equally important will be how long the positive effects will last for hair?


 i would say at least 4 to 6 months. injecting this stuff every 6 months or even every 4 months would be ok, if the price is reasonable. what do you think?
about the price: in total i would be ready to pay up to 2000 bucks a year if the results are real and hair could be maintained at least. do you think it will cost more?

i also think the the results would get better and better with each treatment once the scalp has reached a somehow healthy state.

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## hellouser

> i would say at least 4 to 6 months. injecting this stuff every 6 months or even every 4 months would be ok, if the price is reasonable. what do you think?
> about the price: in total i would be ready to pay up to 2000 bucks a year if the results are real and hair could be maintained at least. do you think it will cost more?
> 
> i also think the the results would get better and better with each treatment once the scalp has reached a somehow healthy state.


 I have no idea... about lasting desired effects or price. But a single session of injections cannot be more than a portion of a hair transplant. The time required and raw costs for the clinics though, I cant see them being more expensive than a hair transplant. Markup will have to be significant in order for them to turn a profit but.

I guess you'd have to do a comparison to current treatments with similar methods in order to get an idea of what it MAY cost.

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## comb0ver

I registered for a 'trial' on that site and got this email back:

"Hello Mr. XYZ,
Thank you for taking the time to email us about the options we have available depending on the type of Hair Restoration program you would like to pursue. The best option for hair restoration is the NeoGraft method with SVF enhancement; this method transplants follicles from the back of your head to the areas where you are receding or balding. This process takes a long time depending on how many hair follicles you have harvested and transplanted. The SVF enhancement is Stromal Vascular Fraction, which is a broth that contains stem cells and growth factors that help the regenerative process. If you would like to have the grafts with SVF then it would cost $6 per graft plus $1500, without SVF would cost $6 per graft. We also have a hair product AQ Solutions that is a laboratory made growth factors that help stimulate hair growth in the area of need. The AQ product is a serum that is rubbed into the scalp and is also stamped in with micro needles, these tiny needles allow the AQ serum to get into the scalp and help stimulate hair growth. I have attached some before and after pictures of the AQ Hair Solution.
If you would like to talk in greater detail about your hair restoration options please call me at XXXXXXXXXX or email me a phone number and a good time to call so that we can discuss this more."

Thoughts?

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## garethbale

Sounds a bit dodgy.

They are offering it with a HT so its pretty impossible to tell how much of any regrowth is down to the SVF and how much is down to the regrowth of transplanted hairs.

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## hellouser

> I registered for a 'trial' on that site and got this email back:
> 
> "Hello Mr. XYZ,
> Thank you for taking the time to email us about the options we have available depending on the type of Hair Restoration program you would like to pursue. The best option for hair restoration is the NeoGraft method with SVF enhancement; this method transplants follicles from the back of your head to the areas where you are receding or balding. This process takes a long time depending on how many hair follicles you have harvested and transplanted. The SVF enhancement is Stromal Vascular Fraction, which is a broth that contains stem cells and growth factors that help the regenerative process. If you would like to have the grafts with SVF then it would cost $6 per graft plus $1500, without SVF would cost $6 per graft. We also have a hair product AQ Solutions that is a laboratory made growth factors that help stimulate hair growth in the area of need. The AQ product is a serum that is rubbed into the scalp and is also stamped in with micro needles, these tiny needles allow the AQ serum to get into the scalp and help stimulate hair growth. *I have attached some before and after pictures of the AQ Hair Solution.*
> If you would like to talk in greater detail about your hair restoration options please call me at XXXXXXXXXX or email me a phone number and a good time to call so that we can discuss this more."
> 
> Thoughts?


 Can you post the before/after photos?

That SVF stuff sounds.... interesting.

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## Haircure

Anyone check the background on these doctors/researchers and their company? Are they even credible?

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## Swooping

Here is some more information;

http://www.squeezedfatgrafting.com/a...4/AAPE-YMS.pdf



Think it is supplied as freeze dried powder indeed.

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## hellouser

> Here is some more information;
> 
> http://www.squeezedfatgrafting.com/a...4/AAPE-YMS.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Think it is supplied as freeze dried powder indeed.


 Page 11 of that article states they applied for a patent on the substance for hair growth back in 2007.

They've had 7 years to check for safety... the stuff should be pretty safe to use.

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## joachim

wow... forget about hairlos. i'm in for a wrinkle treatment =)
it's awesome what it does to skin...

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## joachim

what i don't understand is: is the product about growth factors or stem cells or both?
because it often says that they derive something from humans. i'm confused.

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## downandout

"Patient satisfaction was lower with mesotherapy treatment than with HARG therapy. Some patients moved from mesotherapy treatment to HARG therapy with stem cell protein. The stem cell proteins are the most essential components of this hair regrowth therapy. Treatment using only the vitamin mixture was not more effective than the stem cell protein treatment in our recent double-blind test. "

Seems to me that if you want the real stuff that was actually used in the study then you are going to have to go to a clinic to get it.  The problem is, where can we get this product that contains the HARG THERAPY that was the same thing used in the studies.

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## nameless

> Sounds a bit dodgy.
> 
> They are offering it with a HT so its pretty impossible to tell how much of any regrowth is down to the SVF and how much is down to the regrowth of transplanted hairs.


 
And if the treatment itself is as efficacious as the pictures in the study indicate then why do you also need a hair transplant?  The pictures in that study indicate regrowth that would make a lot of people happy enough that they would not also need a hair transplant.

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## hgs1989

> what i don't understand is: is the product about growth factors or stem cells or both?
> because it often says that they derive something from humans. i'm confused.


 it is similar to histogen. culture cells and collect growth factor. the cells in this case comes from fat stem cells. growth factors I guess signals the cells in your body to start regenerate and repair.

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## Gjm127

yo based on that pdf it looks like they're skipping all legitimate human trials and just offering us the product. I wouldn't go with it until it goes widespread over the market and known as a safe treatment.

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## hgs1989

> yo based on that pdf it looks like they're skipping all legitimate human trials and just offering us the product. I wouldn't go with it until it goes widespread over the market and known as a safe treatment.


 their results are published in a journal. growth factors have been used for a while now in cosmetic products and as injections for skin and wrinkles. there are topical that contain them for hair but as an injection there isn't any. it would be similar to PRP.prp contain lots of growth factors. I guess multiple injections is required but with 2500$ it is a ripoff, not to mention the concentration of the GFs is low.

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## Sogeking

Interesting. How do they extract the fat? I immediately have a a picture of some big ass needle in you stomach. Ghhhhh. The pictures look okay but guys most of the patients in the pics are of female patients. Regrowth is visible but moderate, I believe one would need additional HTs...

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## comb0ver

> Can you post the before/after photos?
> 
> That SVF stuff sounds.... interesting.


 the before/after photos were a bit dodgy. taken from different angles, didn't show hairline.

i've asked for better photos but not heard back.

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## The Alchemist

This has been around a while.  If it grew hair as well as they say, it would be all over the news.  The media will take any bit of information about MPB research and broadcast it as the cure in hopes of generating readership.  For god's sake, scalp tattoo's was headline news just a few weeks ago.  Don't you think if a company was truly getting results like this every major news outlet would have covered the story?

Sorry  to say, this looks a lot like every other scam that we've seen in the past.  This one has a particularly good/legitimate facade.  But, it doesn't change the hard fact that it's been around years and we've not seen a single high def picture or video or heard from the researchers themselves.

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## nameless

I seem to recall one published article I read involving researchers studying adipose stem cell activity in connection with hair growth and they said that there is some protein or something else inside fat cells that signal hair follicles to grow hair. They weren't talking about Histogen-like growth factors. They were talking about something else but I can't remember what it was. 

It was not in the study that we are all looking at in this thread. Yes, I'm aware that the study in this thread does talk about growth factors, but I'm just saying that there's another study out there saying that it's a protein or something like that in the adipiose fat cells that tells follicles to grow hair. 

I'll try to find that study. It looked pretty credible. And the study in this thread also looks credible, although I do have some concerns about who are the doctors who did the research in the study in this thread, and do they have a stake in the results of the study.

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## nameless

> their results are published in a journal. growth factors have been used for a while now in cosmetic products and as injections for skin and wrinkles. there are topical that contain them for hair but as an injection there isn't any. it would be similar to PRP.prp contain lots of growth factors. I guess multiple injections is required but with 2500$ it is a ripoff, not to mention the concentration of the GFs is low.


 
In the study it looks like they injected a high dose of these substances and they did so repeatedly. So if they are using a low dose in the product then of course that dramatically reduces the chances of the product working. You have to use the same dose that proved effective in the study and you have to get it into the skin in the same vehicle.

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## comb0ver

I've been in touch with that company and managed to get this presentation on 'AQ Solution' from them.

See what you think, the hair part is at the end.

http://www.slideshare.net/markdavide...q-presentation

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## hellouser

> I've been in touch with that company and managed to get this presentation on 'AQ Solution' from them.
> 
> See what you think, the hair part is at the end.
> 
> http://www.slideshare.net/markdavide...q-presentation


 Looks like results are more or less between half to a full norwood level of improvement. Not too shabby... but not ideal.

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## maomao

> In the study it looks like they injected a high dose of these substances and they did so repeatedly. So if they are using a low dose in the product then of course that dramatically reduces the chances of the product working. You have to use the same dose that proved effective in the study and you have to get it into the skin in the same vehicle.


 In the presentation, it seemed to be about once every month and a half for 5 months, then no more were required - that's not too bad.. 




> Figure 3. Photographs of a male patient (39 years old) 
> without Finasteride medication. (a) Before treatment. 
> (b) After 3 sessions of stem-cell protein (adipose-derived 
> stem cell protein extract) treatment (5 months after initial 
> treatment). Remarkable hair growth was observed at the 
> hairline after treatment.


 


> Protein solution from ADSC-CM applied during 
> 4 treatment sessions within 34 months induced 
> considerable increases in hair growth.


 A shame this thread didn't crop up a week or so ago, Desmond could have popped in to check them out.

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## hellouser

> A shame this thread didn't crop up a week or so ago, Desmond could have popped in to check them out.


 Was there even anyone from the team at the hair congress?

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## Swooping

Ok guys my korean friend is calling about this today  :Smile: .

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## Thinning87

Very good! Let us know what happens  :Wink:

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## Sogeking

> Ok guys my korean friend is calling about this today .


 Keep us in the loop mate  :Smile: .

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## maomao

> I've been in touch with that company and managed to get this presentation on 'AQ Solution' from them.
> 
> See what you think, the hair part is at the end.
> 
> http://www.slideshare.net/markdavide...q-presentation


 Is that the same stuff?

You can buy that from here - http://www.aqskinsolutions.com/advanced-hair-complex/

But it seems different to the AAPE stuff from the original presentation.

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## maomao

AAPE solution can be purchased here - http://ymsconsulting.org/aape_hair.html

$1000 though!

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## hellouser

> AAPE solution can be purchased here - http://ymsconsulting.org/aape_hair.html
> 
> $1000 though!


 I'd pay more than $1K for the kind of results they got which seem to be superior to Histogen!

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## maomao

Be careful, this stuff has been around since 2007 (search for slone clinic Singapore, who no longer seem to offer it)

A new version (v3) was released in 2012, which I'm guessing is what the new study was on.

Let's see what the Korean place says...

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## downandout

if anything, we should be trying to get ahold of the research company that was doing the trials and see where they are headed with this product they used in the trials.  Are they seeking any further trials?

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## nameless

> if anything, we should be trying to get ahold of the research company that was doing the trials and see where they are headed with this product they used in the trials.  Are they seeking any further trials?


 +1

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## Swooping

Seems they don't want to sell this AAPE solution and absolutely not yet as a commercial product. He said this;

"but i know AAPE Study author professor, he working in dongkok university hospital.

I worked 5 year ago in dongkok hospital ."

He will contact him. I just wrote him a e-mail about why they don't want to sell it yet. I'll give them a call myself probably too and just propose myself as a researcher (or doc).

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## hgs1989

> Seems they don't want to sell this AAPE solution and absolutely not yet as a commercial product. He said this;
> 
> "but i know AAPE Study author professor, he working in dongkok university hospital.
> 
> I worked 5 year ago in dongkok hospital ."
> 
> He will contact him. I just wrote him a e-mail about why they don't want to sell it yet. I'll give them a call myself probably too and just propose myself as a researcher (or doc).


 another user posted a link where we can buy it from, but still more info from your friend is appreciable.

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## hellouser

> Seems they don't want to sell this AAPE solution and absolutely not yet as a commercial product. He said this;
> 
> "but i know AAPE Study author professor, he working in dongkok university hospital.
> 
> I worked 5 year ago in dongkok hospital ."
> 
> He will contact him. I just wrote him a e-mail about why they don't want to sell it yet. I'll give them a call myself probably too and just propose myself as a researcher (or doc).


 Looks like you can buy some here:

http://ymsconsulting.org/aape_hair.html

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## Swooping

You guys sure that is the one we need though? I am pretty sure it HAS to come in a sterilized vial if it is for injection, no doubt (not a microneedle treatment). Something like this;

http://www.gobizkorea.com/att/corp/prostemics/AAPE.jpg

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## Swooping

Also as seen on the picture i'm 100&#37; they need to be freeze and if reconstituted they will be probably only stable for like 1 week if cooled. Cytokines & growth factors are damn unstable in normal temperatures and degrade very fast. You can see them on the movie too, sitting in a freezer.. I'll keep you guys updated.

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## hellouser

> Also as seen on the picture i'm 100% they need to be freeze and if reconstituted they will be probably only stable for like 1 week if cooled. Cytokines & growth factors are damn unstable in normal temperatures and degrade very fast. You can see them on the movie too, sitting in a freezer.. I'll keep you guys updated.


 Perhaps thats why the treatment is only done in hospitals?

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## Swooping

> Perhaps thats why the treatment is only done in hospitals?


 Exactly. Let's see what the guy from the study says!

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## Sogeking

> Exactly. Let's see what the guy from the study says!


 Thank you and please keep us posted, I am willing to try this at least so I could halt my hair loss. If it works of course and if it is  around 1000 $.

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## Alias123

is it only me or does this seem a bit to good to be true? i mean if this would be true this would mean the ultimate bridging solution for NW2 and down, the only reason i can think about why this hasent gotten any worldwide attention is the fact that it is
1. its not a full blown cure
2. its a repeatable process compareable with Hairtransplants
3. it doesnt garauantee very good results

Anyone having faith in this? I sure hope its true considering the fact that it would be a blessing for many of us out there with the ability and will to spend a big sum for good but not extraordinary results, but as mentioned earlier, not a cure in that sense that its suitable for the majority of the balding people out there.

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## nameless

> is it only me or does this seem a bit to good to be true? i mean if this would be true this would mean the ultimate bridging solution for NW2 and down, the only reason i can think about why this hasent gotten any worldwide attention is the fact that it is
> 1. its not a full blown cure
> 2. its a repeatable process compareable with Hairtransplants
> 3. it doesnt garauantee very good results
> 
> Anyone having faith in this? I sure hope its true considering the fact that it would be a blessing for many of us out there with the ability and will to spend a big sum for good but not extraordinary results, but as mentioned earlier, not a cure in that sense that its suitable for the majority of the balding people out there.


 
Firstly, the treatment would have to be done the same as it's done in the study. That means the exact same medicine in the exact same vehicle - all in the exact same concentrations. High dose. Plus there would also have to be repeat visits. Plus there would have to be injections. Plus preparation for the injections. Plus the proper storage. And the exact same amount of injections. 

It would be best for this to be done at a clinic/hospital rather than doing it at home. It could be done at home but it really would be best to have medical personal do it so it would require repeat visits to the clinic/hospital.

And I think it would be good for more than just NW2 on down because even the people with further loss could get some benefit and if they got some benefit it might be enough benefit to make them look good enough that they wouldn't be at such a disadvantage to the men with hair. You don't need to get it all back to make yourself look good enough to make a difference.

----------


## hellouser

Are adipose derived stem cells basically from FAT cells?

----------


## joachim

> Are adipose derived stem cells basically from FAT cells?


 i also don't understand that.

on the one side we're talking about growth factors and on the other side it's about extracted stem cells.

they sell that stuff in bottles for injection. so where's the extraction from humans here?
histogen is the same. the growth factors are not made from individual human's cells. they come ready in a bottle, no?

----------


## nameless

> i also don't understand that.
> 
> on the one side we're talking about growth factors and on the other side it's about extracted stem cells.
> 
> they sell that stuff in bottles for injection. so where's the extraction from humans here?
> histogen is the same. the growth factors are not made from individual human's cells. they come ready in a bottle, no?


 
The reason why fat cells are key is because fat cells have key hair growth factors inside of them. And it's not all fat cells.

----------


## rbrown

Talking about stem cells. Look at what a team from Harvard achieved lately.

Scientists Have Figured Out How to Regenerate Teeth With Lasers

http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_...th_lasers.html

----------


## hellouser

> i also don't understand that.
> 
> on the one side we're talking about growth factors and on the other side it's about extracted stem cells.
> 
> they sell that stuff in bottles for injection. so where's the extraction from humans here?
> histogen is the same. the growth factors are not made from individual human's cells. they come ready in a bottle, no?


 No no, I ask if they're from FAT cells specifically because I'm wondering if fat is reduced in balding areas in the scalp below the surface of the skin. Perhaps thats why the Adipose Derived Stem Cell injections gave results and maybe there would be a possibility of growth with fat grafting alone?

----------


## hgs1989

> i also don't understand that.
> 
> on the one side we're talking about growth factors and on the other side it's about extracted stem cells.
> 
> they sell that stuff in bottles for injection. so where's the extraction from humans here?
> histogen is the same. the growth factors are not made from individual human's cells. they come ready in a bottle, no?


 like histogen cells re taken from a human (a donor maybe) and cultured to release and the growth factors are collected to be injected.

----------


## hgs1989

> No no, I ask if they're from FAT cells specifically because *I'm wondering if fat is reduced in balding areas in the scalp below the surface of the skin.* Perhaps thats why the Adipose Derived Stem Cell injections gave results and maybe there would be a possibility of growth with fat grafting alone?


 that what yale scientists found. if fat stem cells are injected into scalps they should signal follicles to produce hair.

----------


## FearTheLoss

no way this is true..they are doing this in the us..if it were beneficial it would be all over the news.

----------


## nameless

> no way this is true..they are doing this in the us..if it were beneficial it would be all over the news.


 
1. They are injecting fat cells from the abdomen to other places on the body but I really doubt if anyone is implanting them into the scalp underneath follicles. I don't think any doctors have even considered trying it yet. 

2.  It may be necessary to use fat cells from under the follicles rather than fat cells from the abdomen. I don't know that for sure but it may turn out to be the case. The only way to find out is for someone to have fat cells from the abdomen implanted under the follicles in the thinning areas of the scalp and see if it grows hair. If it doesn't then the person would have to try implanting fat cells from the scalp donor region into the thinning areas of the scalp. I would recommend trying to use fat cells from the abdomen region first because if it will work then they would be easier to retrieve than the fat cells from the scalp donor area.

----------


## maomao

That injected aape from the trial isn't in the US, it's not FDA approved.

----------


## nameless

> That injected aape from the trial isn't in the US, it's not FDA approved.


 You would have to fly to them to do this.

We do not even know if they will do this if you were to fly to them.

Would injection of fat cells be just as effective?

----------


## hgs1989

> no way this is true..they are doing this in the us..if it were beneficial it would be all over the news.


 please tell me how histogen or replicel is all over the news. for god's sake, the news covered micro pigmentation as a cure for baldness. the science is solid with this one. all I want to know is that it is not a scam and end up buying water for $1000. if the ingredients are correct, then we have a great treatment.

----------


## hellouser

> please tell me how histogen or replicel is all over the news. for god's sake, the news covered micro pigmentation as a cure for baldness. the science is solid with this one. all I want to know is that it is not a scam and end up buying water for $1000. if the ingredients are correct, then we have a great treatment.


 A great bridging treatment too. Or hell, combine it with an HT and you can go on with life without being socially outcast. Such a thing is PRICELESS.

----------


## beetee

Perhaps I'm missing something, but are we mixing together opinions on the South Korean company and the results shown in the journal article? Unless I'm confused, they seem to be totally independent. If it's just because it sounds like they're using similar ideas, I really think they should be totally distinguished as it really makes all the difference in the world what the specifics are that are used in their separate processes.

In regards to why this isn't in the news, the great majority of media sources (both in print and online) do not go out looking for news stories, at least about stuff like this. They get press releases from companies that are looking to get attention and then they write stories (and perhaps do further research) in response to those press releases. All of those stories about Cotsarelis were because he/Penn/Follica sent out announcements to major media sources alerting them to his "amazing" discoveries (sorry, I'm getting a little salty on Cotsarelis). Why the individuals involved in the PDF study that was linked to would not have gone through the effort to get their results more publicity, I really can't imagine. But as far as those looking at the lack of reporting as proof that it's not significant, all you have to do is look at all the psuedo-science and insignificant nonsense about hair loss that does get reported and you'll know that even if this is ultimately not that big of a deal, it certainly passes the bar that's been established by all the other BS, so it's not a matter of not being significant enough to be reported on. 

Oh, and anyone who thinks the regrowth in those pictures isn't significant must have a very full head of hair. I think you should get off this forum and go outside on a windy and sunny summer day and enjoy your thick locks.

----------


## joachim

> like histogen cells re taken from a human (a donor maybe) and cultured to release and the growth factors are collected to be injected.


 what? histogen's method also involves extracting cells from each individual patient? really??? i wasn't aware of that. i thought the growth factors are some chemicals only which come in a bottle or whatever. otherwise it wouldn't be possible that histogen is a single-day treatment. you would have to extract, send to lab, prepare injections etc.

----------


## Swooping

> what? histogen's method also involves extracting cells from each individual patient? really??? i wasn't aware of that. i thought the growth factors are some chemicals only which come in a bottle or whatever. otherwise it wouldn't be possible that histogen is a single-day treatment. you would have to extract, send to lab, prepare injections etc.


 Yeah they are both similar only histogen uses dermal fibroblasts and this aape uses adipose tissue. And no, you don't have to use your own tissue.

----------


## nameless

> Perhaps I'm missing something, but are we mixing together opinions on the South Korean company and the results shown in the journal article? Unless I'm confused, they seem to be totally independent. If it's just because it sounds like they're using similar ideas, I really think they should be totally distinguished as it really makes all the difference in the world what the specifics are that are used in their separate processes.
> 
> In regards to why this isn't in the news, the great majority of media sources (both in print and online) do not go out looking for news stories, at least about stuff like this. They get press releases from companies that are looking to get attention and then they write stories (and perhaps do further research) in response to those press releases. All of those stories about Cotsarelis were because he/Penn/Follica sent out announcements to major media sources alerting them to his "amazing" discoveries (sorry, I'm getting a little salty on Cotsarelis). Why the individuals involved in the PDF study that was linked to would not have gone through the effort to get their results more publicity, I really can't imagine. But as far as those looking at the lack of reporting as proof that it's not significant, all you have to do is look at all the psuedo-science and insignificant nonsense about hair loss that does get reported and you'll know that even if this is ultimately not that big of a deal, it certainly passes the bar that's been established by all the other BS, so it's not a matter of not being significant enough to be reported on. 
> 
> Oh, and anyone who thinks the regrowth in those pictures isn't significant must have a very full head of hair. I think you should get off this forum and go outside on a windy and sunny summer day and enjoy your thick locks.


 I think the reason this is not all over the news is that the people who were conducting the study were not trying to generate a big news story. They were just trying to test something. 

I am also concerned that we are mixing study results with the treatment being sold by a south korean company. I think we need to contact the people in the study and find out from them how we can get the exact same treatment that they used in their study. I think it's a mistake to try to get something similar that is different in any way. I think that we would want the exact same treatment in the study, admininstered the exact same way it's admininistered in the study, in the exact same dose and frequency. If it's even the slightest bit different then that could screw up the results.

----------


## joachim

> Yeah they are both similar only histogen uses dermal fibroblasts and this aape uses adipose tissue. And no, you don't have to use your own tissue.


 then from whom do they use the dermal fibroblasts and adipose tissue?
i'm more confused than i was before =)

----------


## hiko

> Yeah they are both similar only histogen uses dermal fibroblasts and this aape uses adipose tissue. And no, you don't have to use your own tissue.


 Yeah, there is really no reason to hope this comes to market, since it is essentially another Histogen, and those guys are already balls deep into clinical trials while these guys haven't even started.  

The good thing here is that it shows injecting the right concentration of these growth factors into scalp produces really good results.  As in, practically full blown cure type of results for people with early or moderate hair loss/recession.  So when Histogen does come out, I really do believe it will be a game changer. 

I also think Histogen is desperate to bring their product to market asap, just based on the way the CEO talks.  I think a lot of the other researchers are just focusing on ways to get NW7-->NW1 with a single miracle cure, rather than something that merely grows back more hair than fin/minox with minimal, noninvasive treatment.  For us in the NW2-3 range, that's all we need.  

I mean, those crown regrowth pictures were impressive enough, but the young guy who nearly restored his hairline is as good or better than the best results I've seen from people using fin or dut.  And we all know that very few people are lucky enough to get solid hairline regrowth from fin or dut.  Based on these data, and what Histogen has already shown, it seems this method will work for the vast majority of patients.

----------


## hellouser

> Yeah, there is really no reason to hope this comes to market, since it is essentially another Histogen, and those guys are already balls deep into clinical trials while these guys haven't even started.  
> 
> The good thing here is that it shows injecting the right concentration of these growth factors into scalp produces really good results.  As in, practically full blown cure type of results for people with early or moderate hair loss/recession.  So when Histogen does come out, I really do believe it will be a game changer. 
> 
> I also think Histogen is desperate to bring their product to market asap.  I think a lot of the other researchers are just focusing on ways to get NW7-->NW1 with a single miracle cure, rather than something that merely grows back more hair than fin/minox with minimal, noninvasive treatment.  *For us in the NW2-3 range, that's all we need.*


 It'd benefit NW4-5 as well as they could go in for an HT and get on with their lives.

----------


## nameless

> "Patient satisfaction was lower with mesotherapy treatment than with HARG therapy. Some patients moved from mesotherapy treatment to HARG therapy with stem cell protein. The stem cell proteins are the most essential components of this hair regrowth therapy. Treatment using only the vitamin mixture was not more effective than the stem cell protein treatment in our recent double-blind test. "
> 
> Seems to me that if you want the real stuff that was actually used in the study then you are going to have to go to a clinic to get it.  The problem is, where can we get this product that contains the HARG THERAPY that was the same thing used in the studies.


 And you are right. You want it with the HARG therapy. You want it exactly as it is in the study.

----------


## Thinning87

> Yeah, there is really no reason to hope this comes to market, since it is essentially another Histogen, and those guys are already balls deep into clinical trials while these guys haven't even started.  
> 
> The good thing here is that it shows injecting the right concentration of these growth factors into scalp produces really good results.  As in, practically full blown cure type of results for people with early or moderate hair loss/recession.  So when Histogen does come out, I really do believe it will be a game changer. 
> 
> I also think Histogen is desperate to bring their product to market asap, just based on the way the CEO talks.  I think a lot of the other researchers are just focusing on ways to get NW7-->NW1 with a single miracle cure, rather than something that merely grows back more hair than fin/minox with minimal, noninvasive treatment.  For us in the NW2-3 range, that's all we need.  
> 
> I mean, those crown regrowth pictures were impressive enough, but the young guy who nearly restored his hairline is as good or better than the best results I've seen from people using fin or dut.  And we all know that very few people are lucky enough to get solid hairline regrowth from fin or dut.  Based on these data, and what Histogen has already shown, it seems this method will work for the vast majority of patients.


 Bro that was a woman's picture. Histogen does work, but it's just alright for men. It's somewhat better than propecia and rogaine, and it's noninvasive. But that's all it is. Would have been perfect when I was 24

----------


## hiko

> Bro that was a woman's picture. Histogen does work, but it's just alright for men. It's somewhat better than propecia and rogaine, and it's noninvasive. But that's all it is. Would have been perfect when I was 24


 Nope.  Look again.  That was a guy.  I'm referring to the patient who had hairline regrowth.  

Actually half of the study patients were male, and results were positive in everyone.  I don't know why you think this only applies to women.

I can only think of two people who had comparable results at the hairline on current treatments.  Histogen might not be a cure for bald people, but it is much better than what we have right now.

----------


## nameless

> Nope.  Look again.  That was a guy.  I'm referring to the patient who had hairline regrowth.  
> 
> Actually half of the study patients were male, and results were positive in everyone.  I don't know why you think this only applies to women.
> 
> I can only think of two people who had comparable results at the hairline on current treatments.  Histogen might not be a cure for bald people, but it is much better than what we have right now.


 Histogen might be more effective if you had it injected more than once. 

Also, this adipose derived growth factors might be just as good if not better.

----------


## beetee

> I think the reason this is not all over the news is that the people who were conducting the study were not trying to generate a big news story. They were just trying to test something. 
> 
> I am also concerned that we are mixing study results with the treatment being sold by a south korean company. I think we need to contact the people in the study and find out from them how we can get the exact same treatment that they used in their study. I think it's a mistake to try to get something similar that is different in any way. I think that we would want the exact same treatment in the study, admininstered the exact same way it's admininistered in the study, in the exact same dose and frequency. If it's even the slightest bit different then that could screw up the results.


 I have sent an email to one of the authors of the study asking for clarification on a few points. I have no idea if he will respond but if he does I will certainly make a post about it. 

Upon closer examination, there are a few details of the article that cause me some concern. For one, the journal does not seem to be widely subscribed to by serious academic universities, and the part where they state that they just threw a bunch of potentially hair related vitamins in the mix because they figured it might help seemed strange. That being said, unless those pictures are straight up doctored, I really don't see how this can be dismissed at this point.

----------


## Swooping

They do speak of a "commercial" AAPE product in the study..? The study is from 2012..

----------


## Alias123

any updates from the korean contact? this still looks more intreseting and closer then anything else on this forum atm

----------


## HairBane



----------


## nameless

> any updates from the korean contact? this still looks more intreseting and closer then anything else on this forum atm


 I agree. I would like to see what happens if we were to do the EXACT same treatment that's in the study plus perhaps find a way to get our hands on a DKK1 antagonist to use at the same time. I wonder...

----------


## Swooping

> any updates from the korean contact? this still looks more intreseting and closer then anything else on this forum atm


 No response yet i just shot him another e-mail  :Smile: . I'll let you guys know when i got more information.

----------


## Swooping

There were quite some presentations about it at the hair congress too;

P080
HAIR GROWTH STIMULATION BY ADIPOSE TISSUE-DERIVED STEM CELLS
Gyeong-Hun PARK

* P153 (FC4)	ADIPOSE DERIVED STEM CELLS AND GROWTH FACTORS APPLIED ON HAIR TRANSPLANTATION. FOLLOW-UP OF CLINICAL OUTCOME
Federica ZANZOTTERA

  P222	STUDY ON HAIR-INDUCING CAPACITY OF HUMAN ADIPOSE-DERIVED STEM CELLS (ADSC)
Chang Hoon SEO

P231	CLINICAL USE OF CONDITIONED MEDIA OF ADIPOSE TISSUE-DERIVED STEM CELLS IN FEMALE PATTERN HAIR LOSS: A RETROSPECTIVE CASE SERIES STUDY
Hyoseung SHIN


So i guess it surely grows SOME hair.. The interest is there.

----------


## hiko

> There were quite some presentations about it at the hair congress too;
> 
> P080
> HAIR GROWTH STIMULATION BY ADIPOSE TISSUE-DERIVED STEM CELLS
> Gyeong-Hun PARK
> 
> * P153 (FC4)	ADIPOSE DERIVED STEM CELLS AND GROWTH FACTORS APPLIED ON HAIR TRANSPLANTATION. FOLLOW-UP OF CLINICAL OUTCOME
> Federica ZANZOTTERA
> 
> ...


 The results in the published report show more than just "some" hair growth.  AFAIK, there aren't current or pending treatments that have shown results that good.  

These results should hopefully apply to Histogen's phase 2b higher dosing trials.  They use the same core ingredients.

----------


## Swooping

> The results in the published report show more than just "some" hair growth.  AFAIK, there aren't current or pending treatments that have shown results that good.  
> 
> These results should hopefully apply to Histogen's phase 2b higher dosing trials.  They use the same core ingredients.


 I agree, what would be nice if we could obtain it at a low price and actually do more sessions. That would probably yield even better results too?

----------


## nameless

> I agree, what would be nice if we could obtain it at a low price and actually do more sessions. That would probably yield even better results too?


 Swooping I think that the difficulty we're having getting into communication with the folks in that study is a positive sign. They are not in any hurry to talk with us but snake-oilers usually email back immediately after I contact them because they want to get the money quickly. I found one of the scientists email address in the study and I emailed him 4 or 5 days ago and he still has not responded PLUS they haven't responded to you or the other poster who tried to contact them. I think this shows they are in no rush to take our money. Based on this I think there is a good probability that, that study is legitimate. I really want to try the treatment that was in that study but I want to do it exactly as it was done in that study. I live in America but I would fly back and forth to them for treatment. I do not want to bother with a treatment that is close or similar to what was in the study. I want the exact same treatment. If you find a way to get me in touch with the people in the study please tell me how.

----------


## Alias123

if anyone knows any place in the EU who does or are going to this treatment in the near futureplease link!

----------


## moleular

http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments...ir/stem-cells/

I've been in contact with them. They offer ADSC's and their respective growth factors.
They aren't cultured in hypoxic conditions, as they were in the research at the start of this thread.
Culturing stem cells for therapy (according to them) is currently not allowed under EU law, although they have mentioned that it is possible via their Swiss lab.
Their basic ADSC procedure is 5000.
I'm awaiting some answers to various things, but will keep you posted.

----------


## Alias123

Thank you moleular! i will look into it and possible do a treatment within a month, have no financial boundries so i might aswell take a chance and try it, if they check out that is, keep me posted! thanks again

----------


## nliyan25

Is anybody considering buying this? If this works, I would definitely fork over $1000 for it.

http://ymsconsulting.org/aape_hair.html

----------


## moleular

I saw it and contacted the guy.
He offered very little information in response to my questions, and pointed me to a really poor wix site for answers.
I should imagine it's either not the real thing, or he gets it through back door channels.
Having bought real growth factors from life science companies, I know that they can't just be kept refrigerated as he suggested, and if they are, they need to be used rapidly to maintain a biological response. They also need to be shipped in icepacks and with a rapid shipping service.

Having said that, I think it needs probing more, and really pin him down on the source. It could well come from the korean company which make it, but he's probably going to be reluctant to say much, given that it won't be fda approved

----------


## nliyan25

> I saw it and contacted the guy.
> He offered very little information in response to my questions, and pointed me to a really poor wix site for answers.
> I should imagine it's either not the real thing, or he gets it through back door channels.
> Having bought real growth factors from life science companies, I know that they can't just be kept refrigerated as he suggested, and if they are, they need to be used rapidly to maintain a biological response. They also need to be shipped in icepacks and with a rapid shipping service.
> 
> Having said that, I think it needs probing more, and really pin him down on the source. It could well come from the korean company which make it, but he's probably going to be reluctant to say much, given that it won't be fda approved


 Good point, let's hope it's the real thing.

----------


## Swooping

> http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments...ir/stem-cells/
> 
> I've been in contact with them. They offer ADSC's and their respective growth factors.
> They aren't cultured in hypoxic conditions, as they were in the research at the start of this thread.
> Culturing stem cells for therapy (according to them) is currently not allowed under EU law, although they have mentioned that it is possible via their Swiss lab.
> Their basic ADSC procedure is €5000.
> I'm awaiting some answers to various things, but will keep you posted.


 Great man. What is their method then? They extract it, seperate it and immediately inject it or what? Btw, how hard is it do yourself? Is there anyone here with lab experience, obviously you would need the equipment etc. But seems like it is rather easy? 5000 euro is alot, very curious what it will cost through this swiss lab.

----------


## bananana

> Great man. What is their method then? They extract it, seperate it and immediately inject it or what? Btw, how hard is it do yourself? Is there anyone here with lab experience, obviously you would need the equipment etc. But seems like it is rather easy? 5000 euro is alot, very curious what it will cost through this swiss lab.


 Yeah.
5k euro is a huge price, how long can there results last?

----------


## moleular

With regard to adipose extraction method, it isn't a straightforward process.
It will be something like the following;
http://www.adistem.com/technology/ad...lt-stem-cells/

It seems adistem have chosen to use PRP as the sort of 'carrier'. I don't know whether they use that at the clinic, but it would need some sort of liquid carrier to make the most of the harvested stem cells from the adipose tissue, and probably simply provide enough liquid for injection.

Interestingly, when PRP comes into contact with collagen, it is then activated and the growth factors present within it, increase in their potency.
This is a good and bad thing, as TGF-&#223;1 is also increased, which is in fact a hinderer of hair growth. It's part of the reason why standard PRP isn't very effective when injected standalone.
Using ACell or other extracellular matrix helps to combat this to some degree by giving the stem cells present in the plasma a scaffold to grow.

I should also note this isn't something you'd want to do at home. I have actually tried to inject things into my scalp and it hurts A LOT.
Typically such therapies are provided using mesotherapy techniques such as nappage or other shallow intradermal injections.
It takes a little skill to get it down properly.

----------


## Swooping

One method of prostemics is described as; 




> Human subcutaneous adipose tissues were obtained from 23 healthy women with informed consents as approved by the institutional review boards by medical liposuction. The age distribution of the patients ranged from 26 to 51 years, with a mean of 36.7 years and about 67 kg. The adipose tissues were exposed to collagenase (final 0.075&#37; type II collagenase, Sigma-Aldrich, St. Louis, MO, USA) for 30 min at culture temperature, followed by centrifugation at 400 g for 10 min, washed and resuspended in PBS. The stromal cell fraction was filtered through a 70 μm cell strainer (BD Biosciences, San Jose, CA, USA). Using Histopaque-1077 (Sigma-Aldrich, St. Louis, MO, USA), ADSCs were isolated from the filtrate, then cultured at 37 &#176;C, 5% CO2 in DMEM containing 10% FBS. Characteristic expressions of stem cell-related surface markers were confirmed by flow cytometry [9,10]. ADSCs expressed CD73, CD90 and CD105, and were lacking in CD34 and CD49d. Adipogenic, osteogenic, and chondrogenic differentiation was also checked by the conventional method [43,44]. After the isolation of ADSC from patients, cells were pooled. ADSCs were cultured and expanded in normal control medium, and used for the experiments at passages 4. Cells were finally frozen in aliquots using CellFreezerTM (Genenmed, Seoul, Korea) for the future. To produce a ADSC-CM (AAPETM), a frozen vial containing 1 &#215; 106 cells were launched onto culture medium containing 10% FBS. After repeating subcultures to reach 5 &#215; 108 cells, the expanded ADSCs were introduced into CellFactoryTM CF10 (Nunc, Rochester, NY, USA) in DMEM/F12 serum-free medium (Welgene, Taegu, Korea). Cultures were conducted under a hypoxia by providing 2% O2 using N2 gas supply in a humidified multichannel incubator during 2 weeks. The conditioned media were collected and micro-filtered, followed by quantitated total protein production. Finally, for fresh use, 4 mL vials containing equal protein concentration were freeze-dried as a single lot sample preparation of AAPE (Prostemics Research Institute, Sungnam, Korea) for this study.


 We need those I am pretty sure as seen in the movie from 2:21 to 2.35;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrz3Rp4JwDM#t=154

Are they these;

http://www.prostemics.com/magazine/aape.php

I guess so... Like someone said in this topic the ones for $1000.. Probably way cheaper if directly bought from prostemics though.

----------


## moleular

I doubt that it could be bought much cheaper from Prostemics themselves. This is what makes me a little uncertain about yms offering it for $1000.
It's typically very expensive to buy growth factors. For example, buying just one growth factor like FGF9 is in the region of $250, and that's only for 20 µg (micrograms).
It should be noted that AAPE isn't quite the same as ADSC.
AAPE is solely the proteins / growth factors which are extracted, probably from a cultured medium containing the stem cells. It is the stem cells which secrete these growth factors. Stem cells are not contained in AAPE.
The ADSC method which started this thread, is a method by which both the stem cells and their respective secreted growth factors are used.
And the difference between the aforementioned and adipose derived stem cells used by Dr Heinrich, is that the stem cells from adipose tissue (your own fat) haven't (and can't by EU law) be cultured.

All of that aside, I really wish people would get behind this method on this forum (particularly those frequently browsing cutting edge treatments), because this is actually a reality now, and can be effective.

I propose community funding to work with Dr Heinrich for example (although it doesn't have to be [and I have no affiliations with his clinic]), and getting something set up whereby we can bring down the price of such treatments.

You all know that the other treatments discussed in this section are at least 2 years away from being commercial, so why not dedicate some proper efforts to something which is doable now.
Community funding for ADSC could almost help to subsidise the treatments of yourself and others.

Admittedly, the better results are from Fukuoka's research whereby he cultured the cells in hypoxic conditions, but with enough money backing it, there's no reason we can't gradually bring that around.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of playing the waiting game, and I'm not prepared to anymore.

I welcome your thoughts on it, but please don't let it degrade into name calling and veering off at wild tangents.

----------


## Swooping

> I doubt that it could be bought much cheaper from Prostemics themselves. This is what makes me a little uncertain about yms offering it for $1000.
> It's typically very expensive to buy growth factors. For example, buying just one growth factor like FGF9 is in the region of $250, and that's only for 20 &#181;g (micrograms).
> It should be noted that AAPE isn't quite the same as ADSC.
> AAPE is solely the proteins / growth factors which are extracted, probably from a cultured medium containing the stem cells. It is the stem cells which secrete these growth factors. Stem cells are not contained in AAPE.
> The ADSC method which started this thread, is a method by which both the stem cells and their respective secreted growth factors are used.
> And the difference between the aforementioned and adipose derived stem cells used by Dr Heinrich, is that the stem cells from adipose tissue (your own fat) haven't (and can't by EU law) be cultured.
> 
> All of that aside, I really wish people would get behind this method on this forum (particularly those frequently browsing cutting edge treatments), because this is actually a reality now, and can be effective.
> 
> ...


 Yes i know, most of them are derived from e.coli and they don't work though. I think we should have the ones which are cultured under hypoxic conditions as growth factor secretion will get way bigger because of that. I doubt too that prostemics will offer them for way cheaper than $1000, but we'll see.

Its main components of prostemics AAPE;

include PDGF (44.41 &#177; 2.56 pg/mL), bFGF (131.35 
&#177; 30.31 pg/mL), KGF (86.28 &#177; 20.33 pg/mL), TGF-β1 
(103.33 &#177; 1.70 pg/mL), HGF (670.94 &#177; 86.92 pg/mL), 
VEGF (809.53 &#177; 95.98 pg/mL), collagen (921.47 &#177; 
49.65 pg/mL), ﬁ bronectin (1466.48 &#177; 460.21 pg/mL), 
and SOD in 5 mL saline solution

This is picogram, the dosages are still pretty low. Regranex a foot ulcer creme carries like 100ug/gram of PDGF-AA, heavily overdosed. 

2 years? Damn your positive, to be honest i would expect nothing close in 5 years even. Follica is nowhere with their dermabrasion + lithium, Histogen didn't meet expectations and minoxidil still outperforms it heavily, their ROI isn't probably going worth it. Perhaps replicel, that's it. Furthermore the only thing i see maybe working is this  b-catenin small molecule agonist, but I doubt it as there are more negative loops in the WNT pathway. 

Seems like this is really the only thing realistically worth it for the coming years. I don't think that it will be better than any anti androgen + minox therapy, but as it works by stimulating various paracrine signalling factors it is a multi-action treatment just like minoxidil and that is what we need.

Did you get any more information from this swiss lab moleular?

----------


## hgs1989

> The ADSC method which started this thread


 actually AAPE is what this thread is about. it is called adipose derived stem cells protein extract. the proteins are the growth factors. yes they are expensive but you don't need too much to trigger a cellular signal. but you need the signal to be continuous hence repeated doses are necessary. 

on a different note, check this out guys http://www.skinmedic.com.my/anti-hair-loss-mechanism

looks like the Koreans are already utilizing the power of growth factors for hair.   if the products are legit we already have a histogen,

----------


## Swooping

> actually AAPE is what this thread is about. it is called adipose derived stem cells protein extract. the proteins are the growth factors. yes they are expensive but you don't need too much to trigger a cellular signal. but you need the signal to be continuous hence repeated doses are necessary. 
> 
> on a different note, check this out guys http://www.skinmedic.com.my/anti-hair-loss-mechanism
> 
> looks like the Koreans are already utilizing the power of growth factors for hair.   if the products are legit we already have a histogen,


 These growth factors you are talking about are from e.coli they are nothing new and don't work at all and are already produced in many cosmetic formulations. People have even tried SHH, WNT7A, NOGGIN etc didn't work.

For example a company which offers various growth factors lyophilized and in a cosmetic formulation;

http://www.cosmo-bio.com/bbs/board.p...able=makeup_02

But yeah we need this AAPE, it's really the same as histogen only that histogen uses dermal fibroblasts instead of adipose tissue.

----------


## hgs1989

> These growth factors you are talking about are from e.coli they are nothing new and don't work at all. People have even tried SHH, WNT7A, NOGGIN etc didn't work.
> 
> For example a company which offers various growth factors lyophilized and in a cosmetic formulation;
> 
> http://www.cosmo-bio.com/bbs/board.p...able=makeup_02


 explain why Histogen works then. SHH and wnts work. problem is they are carcinogenic. the others I guess are not known to be carcinogenic or not but wnts and SHH are known to be so. curis cancelled there SHH program for hair because of high toxicity levels in mice.
 Why wouldn't growth factors work? everything in our body is a result of a cellular signaling. baldness is a result of the cell sensitivity to DHT(which has a receptor on the cell) which will make the cells express TGF beta 1 ( a growth factor) which will make the cells die. of course other stuff genes and sginals are also involve like PGD2. a paper I read by Cotseralis before he mentioned that therapeutic approaches for male pattern baldness could be in inhibiting TGF beta 1 and FGF 5 causes the follcile to go in to catagen phase) and then signal the cells using fgf1 , fgf2, fgf7(kgf). the other growth factors like vegf is important for angiogenesis the result a larger follicle and the larger the follicle the the longer your hair. the list goes on and on. the science behind GF is solid.the problem is we don't know if these GF can cause cancer or not. if you have a tumor you can inhibit vegf to prevent blood vessels from developing and killing it (future treatment approach of cancer) imagine if there is a small tumor and you injected vegf the tumor will develop faster. igf 1 is taken by athletes and it works wonder in muscle growth and injury recovery. in fact it used to be banned as a performance enhancing drug. you can read all over the internet about GF. the next generation of treatments for many genetic diseases will be in cellular signaling. who knows maybe they van even signal viruses to die in the future. it is where the current R&D is heading.I wonder how you came up with the conclusion that they don't work.  just because a company cancelled it is program doesn't mean it didn't work. it means it is not feasible to pursue due to financial reasons or unwanted health complications.

----------


## Swooping

> explain why Histogen works then. SHH and wnts work. problem is they are carcinogenic. the others I guess are not known to be carcinogenic or not but wnts and SHH are known to be so. curis cancelled there SHH program for hair because of high toxicity levels in mice.
>  Why wouldn't growth factors work? everything in our body is a result of a cellular signaling. baldness is a result of the cell sensitivity to DHT(which has a receptor on the cell) which will make the cells express TGF beta 1 ( a growth factor) which will make the cells die. of course other stuff genes and sginals are also involve like PGD2. a paper I read by Cotseralis before he mentioned that therapeutic approaches for male pattern baldness could be in inhibiting TGF beta 1 and FGF 5 causes the follcile to go in to catagen phase) and then signal the cells using fgf1 , fgf2, fgf7(kgf). the other growth factors like vegf is important for angiogenesis the result a larger follicle and the larger the follicle the the longer your hair. the list goes on and on. the science behind GF is solid.the problem is we don't know if these GF can cause cancer or not. if you have a tumor you can inhibit vegf to prevent blood vessels from developing and killing it (future treatment approach of cancer) imagine if there is a small tumor and you injected vegf the tumor will develop faster. igf 1 is taken by athletes and it works wonder in muscle growth and injury recovery. in fact it used to be banned as a performance enhancing drug. you can read all over the internet about GF. the next generation of treatments for many genetic diseases will be in cellular signaling. who knows maybe they van even signal viruses to die in the future. it is where the current R&D is heading.I wonder how you came up with the conclusion that they don't work.  just because a company cancelled it is program doesn't mean it didn't work. it means it is not feasible to pursue due to financial reasons or unwanted health complications.


 You misunderstood me. You gave a link to a company in korea. As I said they are derived from *Escherichia coli*  and not from human tissue. The ones from Escherichia coli don't work because they supposedly don't undergo the same biological passages. If those from e.coli would work we wouldn't be sitting here mate. Kane even sold them on his webshop.

----------


## hgs1989

> You misunderstood me. You gave a link to a company in korea. As I said they are derived from *Escherichia coli*  and not from human tissue. The ones from Escherichia coli don't work because they supposedly don't undergo the same biological passages. If those from e.coli would work we wouldn't be sitting here mate. Kane even sold them on his webshop.


 sorry about that. kinda took me time to write that long reply lol.

----------


## Alias123

This is the Answer i got from the clinic, What do you think? should i try it out? i dont live far away and could be able to do it within 3 weeks, based on waiting time etc.
And dont just say yes i should do it so that i can act like a test subject, do you actually think its in any way worth spending any money on? is it a process that could actually have some effect? 


the hair growth therapy is done by removing some fat from Your body, extracting stemcells, mixing them with specific growth factors and injecting them into the scalp. Therapy is repeated   1 - 2 times, costs are from EUR 5000,--/ treatment, small treatments/refreshing treatments are from EUR 3500,--. 

Therapy works satisfyingly on thinning hair on areas not completely depelted of hair follicles. Sessions should be repeated for best results.

Regular consultation fees are based on a regular patient status. We also offer VIP-status on request. Our internationally famous VIP-Firstclass consultations/treatment offers the best available service according to Your individual convenience on any day/time you prefer with nobody else in the waiting room and no waiting time. Fees for VIP consultation from EUR 300,--, fees for VIP treatments on request.

----------


## moleular

Swooping, recombinant proteins produced through viruses or bacteria do work for therapeutic purposes.
If they didn't, then life science companies wouldn't sell them in their thousands to scientist around the world.
It is these recombinant proteins and growth factors which are used in research to help model real world purposes.
Recombinant Human growth hormone for example is widely sold on the black market for use in bodybuilding.

----------


## moleular

Alias, it's up to you. If money is no object and then it would be worth a try.

----------


## Swooping

> Swooping, recombinant proteins produced through viruses or bacteria do work for therapeutic purposes.
> If they didn't, then life science companies wouldn't sell them in their thousands to scientist around the world.
> It is these recombinant proteins and growth factors which are used in research to help model real world purposes.
> Recombinant Human growth hormone for example is widely sold on the black market for use in bodybuilding.


 I know but trust me on this. This isn't the only forum, there are guys who have done this ages ago including recombinant human wnt7a, SHH, bFGF, KGF, SOD etc, just simply didn't work. Just don't do them you are wasting your money man (e.coli derived ones).





> One of the most challenging problems with growth factors and cytokines, or wound-healing peptides, is their stability. Without a stability system, growth factors will fall apart in the bottle or on the skin. Exoskeletons are a breakthrough, but there are other stabilized growth factors on the market. *Most growth factors made individually are created by programming Escherichia coli (E. coli) bacteria. This process can match the amino acids, creating a bioidentical version, but it cannot mimic the three-dimensionality of human cell-derived growth factors. It is this special shape that makes growth factors from stem cells and fibroblasts much more stable and active in the skin.*


 Think it had to do with this indeed.. will dig it up later

----------


## Swooping

> Swooping, recombinant proteins produced through viruses or bacteria do work for therapeutic purposes.
> If they didn't, then life science companies wouldn't sell them in their thousands to scientist around the world.
> It is these recombinant proteins and growth factors which are used in research to help model real world purposes.
> Recombinant Human growth hormone for example is widely sold on the black market for use in bodybuilding.


 Explained pretty well here why they are inferior with links to studies.;

http://www.gvi.com.mx/Skinmedica/Pub...ayo%202009.pdf

----------


## moleular

Granted, that study suggested they are pretty useless in topical treatments, which I can confirm myself too.
Whenever I was referring to GF's though, I meant injection. Although it looks like a topical, the AAPE product I should think probably needs to be injected too.

That aside, maybe another way around this is to go to a lab directly and ask them to culture your own adipose tissue, as that's what the clinic have suggested they would have to do anyway.
I was quoted CHF4000, but bear in mind that it's again only the protein extracts which I am allowed to use under EU law, not the cultured stem cells themselves.

----------


## Swooping

> Granted, that study suggested they are pretty useless in topical treatments, which I can confirm myself too.
> Whenever I was referring to GF's though, I meant injection. Although it looks like a topical, the AAPE product I should think probably needs to be injected too.
> 
> That aside, maybe another way around this is to go to a lab directly and ask them to culture your own adipose tissue, as that's what the clinic have suggested they would have to do anyway.
> I was quoted CHF4000, but bear in mind that it's again only the protein extracts which I am allowed to use under EU law, not the cultured stem cells themselves.


 Understand.. Ill try to call prostemics myself today or tommorow. Let's see if we can dig up more information.

----------


## hellouser

Swooping,

What if you were to use the dermapen that deposited a topical? SAGA has a thread on it, check these out;

http://viya.en.alibaba.com/product/1..._massager.html
http://www.novanewface.com/product-3-3-298.html
http://www.dermica.ch/en/products/tr...l/automeso.php
http://www.amazon.com/Therapy-Delive...ef=pd_sxp_f_pt
http://www.ubiomed.co.kr/base/eng/pr...product_01.php
http://www.adminmed.com/adminpen600

----------


## Kudu

> Swooping,
> 
> What if you were to use the dermapen that deposited a topical? SAGA has a thread on it, check these out;
> 
> http://viya.en.alibaba.com/product/1..._massager.html
> http://www.novanewface.com/product-3-3-298.html
> http://www.dermica.ch/en/products/tr...l/automeso.php
> http://www.amazon.com/Therapy-Delive...ef=pd_sxp_f_pt
> http://www.ubiomed.co.kr/base/eng/pr...product_01.php
> http://www.adminmed.com/adminpen600


 I've looked at most of these before trying to figure out a way to deliver CB,  I  also believe that  these would improve a variety of topical treatments. I've been  having a difficult time understanding this thread, are growth factors or stem cells used in this treatment? Or both?

----------


## hgs1989

> I've looked at most of these before trying to figure out a way to deliver CB,  I  also believe that  these would improve a variety of topical treatments. I've been  having a difficult time understanding this thread, are growth factors or stem cells used in this treatment? Or both?


 it is growth factors that are used. they are produced by culturing fat stem cells.

----------


## Alias123

Ok so i have been talking with them now and its looking like i will have a treatment within one month, i will ofcourse update you if i get any results, even though it will take a while to see.
Swooping= do you really think that this is a complete waste of money?
and one further question, im currently only using propecia and that hasent managed to stop my loss completley, im still loosing ground in the frontal area, but if i would do this treatment and focus on the front, would it in any way contribute to halting my loss?

----------


## moleular

Alias, with all due respect, there's no point asking swooping, no-one will know, as the treatment isn't yet widely used.
The research produced is hopeful though, even though the process isn't exactly the same, so that should help you make your decision. 
I too have said that I would like the treatment with them, and now trying to work out a suitable consultation date.

On another note, and this is directed to everyone looking at this thread;

I have been in contact with a number of labs (mainly in europe) who take stem cells from your adipose tissue sample (which you send them) and will then cultivate the stem cells under hypoxic conditions (as documented in the research by Fukuoka). They will then extract the secreted growth factors and provide in return a lyophilised product, which you then mix with some sort of reagent to then inject.

I would like to know how many people are interested in doing this, providing they are able to find somewhere to take a fat sample, pack it up and send it (which in theory shouldn't be too difficult), and send it to the lab.
This is of course not likely to be that cheap, but given enough people interested, I can make contact and determine how well equipped the lab is and whether they can lower the cost of their production.
There shouldn't be any problem with this from a legal standpoint, as they are your cells and your growth factors, and ultimately your decision.

IF there is reasonable interest, by which I mean pushing towards the hundred mark, then I will make an effort to organise it.
Please note, before you get your hopes up, I'm not making any promises - if there isn't enough interest or I can't organise this with a lab, then it won't come off.

----------


## nameless

> Alias, with all due respect, there's no point asking swooping, no-one will know, as the treatment isn't yet widely used.
> The research produced is hopeful though, even though the process isn't exactly the same, so that should help you make your decision. 
> I too have said that I would like the treatment with them, and now trying to work out a suitable consultation date.
> 
> On another note, and this is directed to everyone looking at this thread;
> 
> I have been in contact with a number of labs (mainly in europe) who take stem cells from your adipose tissue sample (which you send them) and will then cultivate the stem cells under hypoxic conditions (as documented in the research by Fukuoka). They will then extract the secreted growth factors and provide in return a lyophilised product, which you then mix with some sort of reagent to then inject.
> 
> I would like to know how many people are interested in doing this, providing they are able to find somewhere to take a fat sample, pack it up and send it (which in theory shouldn't be too difficult), and send it to the lab.
> ...


 

Has anyone gotten in touch with Fukuoka? It would be best if we could go to his lab/clinic and have it done by him and his team since they are the ones who did it in the study. They did it exactly right and we should have them do it. We need to go to the doctors involved in the study below and have them do the exact same thing to us. 

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

This is the way to do this.

----------


## maomao

> Ok so i have been talking with them now and its looking like i will have a treatment within one month, i will ofcourse update you if i get any results, even though it will take a while to see.
> Swooping= do you really think that this is a complete waste of money?
> and one further question, im currently only using propecia and that hasent managed to stop my loss completley, im still loosing ground in the frontal area, but if i would do this treatment and focus on the front, would it in any way contribute to halting my loss?


 Sorry, I'm getting a little confused. Spoke with who? The Korean lab, or the company that sells the ready made?

----------


## Alias123

the one in switzerland who offers the treatments

----------


## nameless

> Sorry, I'm getting a little confused. Spoke with who? The Korean lab, or the company that sells the ready made?


 I'm with you. I'm getting confused too. 

We stared out talking about a study done by a specific group of people. Now we appear to be talking about different groups offering a similar treatment but not the exact same treatment that's in the study. I think we need to get back to the study and find a way to contact the people who did the study and talk to them about going to them for the treatment.

----------


## zeos

> the one in switzerland who offers the treatments


 i thought the clinic was in vienna

----------


## downandout

you can get it done here.

http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html

----------


## comb0ver

> you can get it done here.
> 
> http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html


 anyone live near switzerland and want to investigate this?

----------


## bananana

> anyone live near switzerland and want to investigate this?


 +1
I'm very interested in this. I would have the treatment myself, but I've recently dumped a lot of money into opening my software company, so...

----------


## hgs1989

> anyone live near switzerland and want to investigate this?


 this is different than what this thread is about. you can have similar to the link you quoted done for 2500$ in boston. this is the link to the clinic.http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells check this thread there are others in los angeles and arizona I posted a link to before. but seriously I believe stem cells treatment should be repeated in 2-4 weeks intervals and at 2500$ it is a rip off not mention travelling and hotel costs. any results from this treatment once will be minimal. I expect complete hair loss stoppage but little gain similar to acell+prp (check this lnik for pics http://prasadcosmeticsurgery.com/pra...r-restoration/) and then hair loss might kick back in like a year or so. looking at the pictures the results are impressive but more frequent treatments will yield far better results.any how any one wants to try this he/she should take before and after pics himself to monitor progress. doctors will play with light to make results better.

anyhow, guys I'll buy this AAPE for 1000$ after the summer. i hope they sell it to individuals and not limited to clinics. also will buy the thing hellouser put a link to which is called tappy tok tok from ebay as delivery system. I'll keep you updated but again after the summer I ll begin my treatment and I ll try to follow the study protocol as close as possible(depth, area treated , dosage/cm2 anything else).

----------


## nliyan25

> this is different than what this thread is about. you can have similar to the link you quoted done for 2500$ in boston. this is the link to the clinic.http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells check this thread there are others in los angeles and arizona I posted a link to before. but seriously I believe stem cells treatment should be repeated in 2-4 weeks intervals and at 2500$ it is a rip off not mention travelling and hotel costs. any results from this treatment once will be minimal. I expect complete hair loss stoppage but little gain similar to acell+prp (check this lnik for pics http://prasadcosmeticsurgery.com/pra...r-restoration/) and then hair loss might kick back in like a year or so. looking at the pictures the results are impressive but more frequent treatments will yield far better results.any how any one wants to try this he/she should take before and after pics himself to monitor progress. doctors will play with light to make results better.
> 
> anyhow, guys I'll buy this AAPE for 1000$ after the summer. i hope they sell it to individuals and not limited to clinics. also will buy the thing hellouser put a link to which is called tappy tok tok from ebay as delivery system. I'll keep you updated but again after the summer I ll begin my treatment and I ll try to follow the study protocol as close as possible(depth, area treated , dosage/cm2 anything else).


 
Is this  the delivery system you mean? 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tappy-Tok-To...-/191082505087

----------


## Sogeking

> this is different than what this thread is about. you can have similar to the link you quoted done for 2500$ in boston. this is the link to the clinic.http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells check this thread there are others in los angeles and arizona I posted a link to before. but seriously I believe stem cells treatment should be repeated in 2-4 weeks intervals and at 2500$ it is a rip off not mention travelling and hotel costs. any results from this treatment once will be minimal. I expect complete hair loss stoppage but little gain similar to acell+prp (check this lnik for pics http://prasadcosmeticsurgery.com/pra...r-restoration/) and then hair loss might kick back in like a year or so. looking at the pictures the results are impressive but more frequent treatments will yield far better results.any how any one wants to try this he/she should take before and after pics himself to monitor progress. doctors will play with light to make results better.
> 
> anyhow, guys I'll buy this AAPE for 1000$ after the summer. i hope they sell it to individuals and not limited to clinics. also will buy the thing hellouser put a link to which is called tappy tok tok from ebay as delivery system. I'll keep you updated but again after the summer I ll begin my treatment and I ll try to follow the study protocol as close as possible(depth, area treated , dosage/cm2 anything else).


 Hey man are you sure that AAPE is the same thing that you linked in your first post (the study )? Srry didn't read I'm not trying to be a tawt  :Smile: .

Anyways if you are going to contact them after the summer keep us in the loop. There might be something to this.

Although is there a chance for AAPE to be administered by experts? The link to the AAPE is n Korean. If your experimenting comes out as positive I am more than willing to go to Korea to get it done.

Thx for any info.

----------


## hgs1989

> Is this  the delivery system you mean? 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tappy-Tok-To...-/191082505087


 yes

----------


## hgs1989

> Hey man are you sure that AAPE is the same thing that you linked in your first post (the study )? Srry didn't read I'm not trying to be a tawt .


 yes I am sure. sure I will keep you posted on this thread but I might take a while. as I said I will buy it after the summer and then 6 to 8 weeks of the treatment.

----------


## nameless

> yes I am sure. sure I will keep you posted on this thread but I might take a while. as I said I will buy it after the summer and then 6 to 8 weeks of the treatment.


 
* The researchers in he original study added some other ingredients of their own. Are you going to do that too? 

* Also, the researchers injected the treatment. Are you going to do that too?

* Also, they didn't just inject the treatment on one occasion. There were follow-up appointments where they did more of the same treatments. 

* Also, I think they used a topical of the treatment. 

* They injected a certain depth - 3 cm I think.


You have to do the exact same things the researchers did.

----------


## hgs1989

one more thing guys, if you are going to try it, try it on your own responsibility. I am not responsible for any complications. I will try them at my own risk .

----------


## Alias123

wait a minute, what is the difference between the one in vienna 
http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments/face-skin-hair/
and
http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html
which one would you guys trust yields the best results?

----------


## hgs1989

> wait a minute, what is the difference between the one in vienna 
> http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments/face-skin-hair/
> and
> http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html
> which one would you guys trust yields the best results?


 they are the same, fatty stem cells.

----------


## nameless

> they are the same, fatty stem cells.


 How do you know that they're the same treatment? They might be different treatments. Yes they both involve adipose stem cells but AAPE (the treatment in the study originally presented in this thread) is a very specific extract of very specific growth factors and proteins from those adipose stem cells. The Vienna treatment may not involve the exact same growth factors and proteins. Plus the AAPE treatment in the study was mixed with some other ingredients by the researchers some vitamins and whatnot. I really don't think that the Vienna treatment will include those same ingredients. Also, the treatment in the study was injected at certain depths and involved repeat follow-up treatments of the same medicine weeks later for months. Also, the treatment in the study also involved a topical rub-on solution for at least some patients.

----------


## Pelopeleon

> one more thing guys, if you are going to try it, try it on your own responsibility. I am not responsible for any complications. I will try them at my own risk .


 What problems could you have with that stem cell treatments, for example that one from Switzerland? What could expect a nw2 using this?

----------


## hgs1989

> Swooping,
> 
> What if you were to use the dermapen that deposited a topical? SAGA has a thread on it, check these out;
> 
> http://viya.en.alibaba.com/product/1..._massager.html
> http://www.novanewface.com/product-3-3-298.html
> http://www.dermica.ch/en/products/tr...l/automeso.php
> http://www.amazon.com/Therapy-Delive...ef=pd_sxp_f_pt
> http://www.ubiomed.co.kr/base/eng/pr...product_01.php
> http://www.adminmed.com/adminpen600


 would you please post a link to the thread you mentioned

----------


## hellouser

> would you please post a link to the thread you mentioned


 I don't want to be banned here, lol. SAGA is a private forum anyway.

----------


## Alias123

Im going for the treatment in switzerland within 1 month, do you want me to keep you updates with photos etc? only on propecia now, been for 15 months, still losing ground so if hairloss stops or i get regrowth, its because of this treatment and not anything else.

----------


## Pelopeleon

> Im going for the treatment in switzerland within 1 month, do you want me to keep you updates with photos etc? only on propecia now, been for 15 months, still losing ground so if hairloss stops or i get regrowth, its because of this treatment and not anything else.


 Yes, it would be very nice. I am thinking about that treatment... as I cannot tolerate propecia, and I am only using minoxidil.

----------


## hgs1989

> Im going for the treatment in switzerland within 1 month, do you want me to keep you updates with photos etc? only on propecia now, been for 15 months, still losing ground so if hairloss stops or i get regrowth, its because of this treatment and not anything else.


 I would recommend to take the photos by yourself. the doctors will always try to enhance the results by lighting.
thanks

----------


## hellouser

> Im going for the treatment in switzerland within 1 month, do you want me to keep you updates with photos etc? only on propecia now, been for 15 months, still losing ground so if hairloss stops or i get regrowth, its because of this treatment and not anything else.


 Please do and please try to take consistent photos at the same angle with the same lighting conditions.

----------


## bananana

guys, 

how long are these results expected to last?

----------


## zeos

another Korean product
http://www.jmbiotech.co.kr/jm/pdf/%2...20brochure.pdf
http://www.jmbiotech.co.kr/jm/pdf/%2...20solution.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFWiSkQbjtk

----------


## nameless

> http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf
> 
> check it out really amazing results are show. it also mention the procedure can be done with current technology. several sessions are required. trichoscan showed 83&#37; increase in hairs (see figure.7 before treatment 29 hairs in the area and after 53. (53-29)/29 = 83%). full head pictures are also available.figure.3 shows a male without fin and figure 4 shows another on fin, but I doubt that fin would make that difference in 6 months.  sad it is not approved by the FDA. but why ? it is similar to ACell + prp. it is like histogen on steroids. any how check it out. there are clinics doing research on other treatment adipose-derived stem cell without the protein extract thing. http://www.stemcellrevolution.com/cu...r-restoration/


 I have decided that this is our best short term solution. It's something we can do right now if we can get the exact same treatment that is in this exact study.

----------


## cr1mson

> another Korean product
> http://www.jmbiotech.co.kr/jm/pdf/%2...20brochure.pdf
> http://www.jmbiotech.co.kr/jm/pdf/%2...20solution.pdf
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFWiSkQbjtk


 Does anyone have any more info on this? It looks like something that can be done at home instead of going to a clinic...

----------


## hgs1989

> I don't want to be banned here, lol. SAGA is a private forum anyway.


 posting a link doesn't get you banned. where can i buy tappy tok tok ? ebay and amazon are out of stock. do you know other places ?

----------


## Scientalk56

Interesting Subject... but, are you telling me that there's a better treatment than propecia and no one is using it? never mentioned in the news...!?
there's something messing...

----------


## Alias123

after being in touch with both of the companies, the one in vienna and the one in switzerland/greece i have gotten different responses.
the once in switzerland/Greece is 8000 euro and the one in vienna is 5000 euro. the one for 8000 promises complete stop of hairloss and regrowth, but the one for 5000 says : 

<<and does it completley stop loss for how long?

it prompts new growth, we have not evaluated whether it also stops the loss, but probably reduces the loss as you will have more hair after treatment.

http://ddrheinrich.com/ is the one for 5000
http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html is the one for 8000.
Please guide me in my choice of treatment, i find it really hard to think that one for almost twice the amount is THAT much better? thank you.

----------


## cr1mson

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

In this journal, it says patients were able to maintain results for 1.5 - 2.5 years. If that is true, this is essentially a cure for people with minimal to average hair loss. It would especially help me as I am losing hair in a diffuse pattern only on the top of my scalp. Any other ideas to obtain this ?

----------


## joachim

they promise hairloss stop and regrowth, for 8000? is there a money back guarantee? is there a follow up to compare results with high res images or trichoscans?

----------


## nameless

> after being in touch with both of the companies, the one in vienna and the one in switzerland/greece i have gotten different responses.
> the once in switzerland/Greece is 8000 euro and the one in vienna is 5000 euro. the one for 8000 promises complete stop of hairloss and regrowth, but the one for 5000 says : 
> 
> <<and does it completley stop loss for how long?
> 
> it prompts new growth, we have not evaluated whether it also stops the loss, but probably reduces the loss as you will have more hair after treatment.
> 
> http://ddrheinrich.com/ is the one for 5000
> 
> ...


 
I don't even know what treatment you are talking about. Is it this treatment:

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

Is it the exact same treatment or is it a different treatment?

----------


## Alias123

No, but the follow up treatments are around 1500 euro and recomended to do 1-2 times within 2 years according to both, but again, please those who are slightly knowledable with the subject, can you tell me if there is any significant difference between the two and is the high price worth it? note that included in those 8000 is travel expenses and hotel, which is not included in the one for 5000, but still.

----------


## Alias123

Nameless that is exactly what im trying to ask but yet no one seem to be able to provide an answer, IS the difference between these 2 proccedures worth its difference in money?.http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html (8000 euro)
and 
http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments...rowth-factors/ (5000)

on the second link clink to the hair part. 
i would appreciate an answer as soon as possible since i have to leave a deposit on either of them before sunday.

----------


## Alias123

http://stemcelltherapy.cc/stem-cell-...n-hair-tissue/
is the one for 5000, if you can see the journals its these ones that its based upon.
    Fukuoka, H., Suga, H., Narita, K., et al.: The Latest Advance in Hair Regeneration Therapy Using Proteins Secreted by Adipose-Derived Stem Cells. American Journal of Cosmetic Surgery December 2012; 29 (4): 273–82.
    Huang, S.-P., Huang, C.-H., Shyu, J.-F., et al.: Promotion of wound healing using adipose-derived stem cells in radiation ulcer of a rat model. J Biomed Sci 2013; 20 (1). Epub July 22, 2013.
    Kim, J.-H., Jung, M., Kim, H.-S., et al.: Adipose-derived stem cells as a new therapeutic modality for ageing skin. Exp Dermatol May 2011; 20 (5): 383–7. Epub February 28, 2011.
    Menendez-Menendez, Y., Alvarez-Viejo, M., Ferrero-Gutierrez, A., et al.: Adult Stem Cell Therapy in Chronic Wound Healing. J Stem Cell Res Ther 2014; 4 (162). Epub January 25, 2014.
sounds good or what do you think?

----------


## hgs1989

guys the links of the clinics in Vienna and Switzerland are injection of fat stem cells into the scalp. you can get this done inn the US in boston. look in this thread I have put a link to the clinic. but what this thread is about is actually different. and gosh 8000 euros is a ripp off

----------


## Alias123

thank you HGS1989, but im living near vienna so the one for 5000 would actually be much more convienient then going to boston! but do you think the one in vienna is legit? that is the one for 5000 based on the journals posted earlier by me above, the link again
http://stemcelltherapy.cc/stem-cell-...n-hair-tissue/

----------


## hgs1989

I don't know how legit it is. fat stem cells is not widely used here in the us. clinics are still trialing with it. here in the us it is 2500$ the guy i talked to seemed confident about it, but at 5000$ I wouldn't bother unless they have really very solid data about it. there is a study by yale university that connects fat stem cells to hair growth : http://news.yale.edu/2011/09/01/yale...-its-time-grow , they think it tells the hair to grow and I read somewhere that balding men have less fat under the scalp. so who knows. there is some data behind it but 5000 euros is really expensive to gamble with. if it was below 1000$ I would even do it more frequently within a year.

----------


## Alias123

its 5000 for the first time, then its 1500 or 3500 the next two times, since they have your fat cells in storage, any other opinions?

----------


## cr1mson

> I don't know how legit it is. fat stem cells is not widely used here in the us. clinics are still trialing with it. here in the us it is 2500$ the guy i talked to seemed confident about it, but at 5000$ I wouldn't bother unless they have really very solid data about it. there is a study by yale university that connects fat stem cells to hair growth : http://news.yale.edu/2011/09/01/yale...-its-time-grow , they think it tells the hair to grow and I read somewhere that balding men have less fat under the scalp. so who knows. there is some data behind it but 5000 euros is really expensive to gamble with. if it was below 1000$ I would even do it more frequently within a year.


 HGS,

is this the place you were talking about?
http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells

It seems very similar to the this treatment, what is the difference? I actually live closer to Boston, then any of the other options, and at 2500 it doesnt seem like a bad price. Do you know if follow up treatments are required?

----------


## hgs1989

> HGS,
> is this the place you were talking about?
> http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells


 yes this is the one in boston. I didn't ask if more than a treatment is required. you can contact them and they will call you.

----------


## hellouser

> HGS,
> 
> is this the place you were talking about?
> http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells


 They do regular hair transplants and have a gallery for their results. I can't find any photos with results from the ADSC treatment.

----------


## hellouser

There's a place in Shanghai, China that also uses Adipose Stem Cells for hair loss! See here:

http://www.stellen.com.cn/Eng/Mira.aspx?id=7

----------


## nameless

> There's a place in Shanghai, China that also uses Adipose Stem Cells for hair loss! See here:
> 
> http://www.stellen.com.cn/Eng/Mira.aspx?id=7


 
It's not the same as AAPE. These cell transfers might work but remember that
Jahoda, Linder, Atak, etc, etc, etc, are all trying to figure out how to make 
cell implantation work. And yet the very credible adipose stem cell extract (AAPE) study worked just fine. I think that could be because science hasn't yet worked out all of the bugs with implantation of the actual cells but if you inject the harvested AAPE from the cells into the scalp then you might be able to get around having to work all of those bugs out. I think that until all of the bugs are worked out of the cell implants you are probably better off injecting the extract from the cells. 

I think that injecting the extract (AAPE) and the most advanced version possible of DP cells and epithelial cells is probably the best way to go. The cells might help but even if they don't then at least the AAPE will make a significant improvement on your hair.

----------


## Alias123

Hellouser do you have any opinion on the one in vienna?
http://stemcelltherapy.cc/stem-cell-...n-hair-tissue/
doing a treatment there the 15th of july

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser do you have any opinion on the one in vienna?
> http://stemcelltherapy.cc/stem-cell-...n-hair-tissue/
> doing a treatment there the 15th of july


 No opinion. However, please keep us posted after your treatment WITH photos. It will be VERY beneficial to all of us.. PLEASE!!!

----------


## hgs1989

> There's a place in Shanghai, China that also uses Adipose Stem Cells for hair loss! See here:
> 
> http://www.stellen.com.cn/Eng/Mira.aspx?id=7


 man the link you posted is great.it appears that they inject both cultured stem cells with the growth factors released during culturing. this is from the site:"Taken from a small sample of your body’s adipose tissue (fat stores), the stem cells are then separated out and grown into a ’culture’ of sufficient volume for the treatment. The stem cells are ’differentiated’ with growth factors to ensure they perform the desired hair growth function." 




> They do regular hair transplants and have a gallery for their results. I can't find any photos with results from the ADSC treatment.


 weird because the guy I talked to said that they don't have pictures online because of customer privacy and he is willing to show me them through skype. I didn't see the transplant pics, if I saw them I would have told him that you already have hair transplants pictures on your site.

----------


## Alias123

i will keep you updated with photos etc, doing my first treatment mid july, second in october and third one in april.

----------


## Alias123

Just Did my first treatment, if you have any questions ask. I will post photos in a few weeks since it takes a while to work. If it works.

----------


## hellouser

> Just Did my first treatment, if you have any questions ask. I will post photos in a few weeks since it takes a while to work. If it works.


 Questions:

1) Cost?
2) Where was it done?
3) How was the procedure?
4) Any sides?

----------


## rhysmorgan

Yes, please keep us posted alias, I'm very interested too. 

Also 5)How many treatments did they say will be required?

Thanks.

----------


## hgs1989

> Just Did my first treatment, if you have any questions ask. I will post photos in a few weeks since it takes a while to work. If it works.


 before photos please.

----------


## Alias123

5000 euro was the cost.
done in Vienna at ddr heinrich
the preccedure was okey, first they took some blood samples ( alot) and then they extracted fat from my back, then injected in with needles on my forhead. the proccedure was pretty scary since you have 3-4 people operating at you on the same time and it feels weird. 
No sides, still got some redness on the area which they operated on and still a bit sore from where they extracted the fat.
I took some before pictures but i wont post them until i have afterpictures to compare with. lets just say for now that im a NW 1.5-2.
I think 3 times is the ultimate number to do the treatment. And the touchup proccedures are 3500 and 1500 euro each. still alot of money but since i have no interest at ALL to do a hairtransplant this might be worth it, but again, results if any should show within 12 weeks so i will keep you updated.

----------


## maomao

Fingers crossed for you :-)

Did they say how long it's expected to last? 

And this is to regrow, or just maintain?

----------


## hellouser

> 5000 euro was the cost.
> done in Vienna at ddr heinrich
> the preccedure was okey, first they took some blood samples ( alot) and then they extracted fat from my back, then injected in with needles on my forhead. the proccedure was pretty scary since you have 3-4 people operating at you on the same time and it feels weird. 
> No sides, still got some redness on the area which they operated on and still a bit sore from where they extracted the fat.
> I took some before pictures but i wont post them until i have afterpictures to compare with. lets just say for now that im a NW 1.5-2.
> I think 3 times is the ultimate number to do the treatment. And the touchup proccedures are 3500 and 1500 euro each. still alot of money but since i have no interest at ALL to do a hairtransplant this might be worth it, but again, results if any should show within 12 weeks so i will keep you updated.


 Thanks for the update. Can't wait to see the results for the next few months. If this works out, I'm booking a trip to Vienna myself and getting it done myself. Please take photos with AMPLE soft lighting ie, not under a lamp or sun but rather a bright light thats diffused ie; the sun through clouds or a lamp behind a curtain.

----------


## zeos

@Alias123

you also mentioned switzerland/Greece,i will be in athens in september/october and  would like to gather some information about this therapy
could you give me an address??

thanks!!!!!!

----------


## Maxis

> they promise hairloss stop and regrowth, for 8000? is there a money back guarantee? is there a follow up to compare results with high res images or trichoscans?


 
Sounds like some expensive snake oil

----------


## rhysmorgan

The cost is insane for what must honestly take a few hours labour.

I hope the results match the price. Good luck!! Keep us updated.

----------


## Arashi

> Sounds like some expensive snake oil


 Agreed. Haven't done any research into all this, skimmed through this topic but I'd be VERY VERY skeptical, at first sight all this looks like another snake oil to me, but can't say just yet. Did anyone do any research ? Into the authors of the study etc ?

----------


## hellouser

> they promise hairloss stop and regrowth, for 8000? is there a money back guarantee? is there a follow up to compare results with high res images or trichoscans?


 If Alias123's before/after photos wont please the masses, we could fund someone through another effort like with Desmond and send them off to the clinic and have all the resources for them to show us proper documentation.

----------


## Thinning@30

Considering that this is an unproven treatment, it should be offered for free as part of a test, or at least at cost to people willing to offer themselves as guinea pigs.

----------


## hellouser

> Considering that this is an unproven treatment, it should be offered for free as part of a test, or at least at cost to people willing to offer themselves as guinea pigs.


 You've got too much faith in humanity. But I agree with you.

----------


## nameless

> Considering that this is an unproven treatment, it should be offered for free as part of a test, or at least at cost to people willing to offer themselves as guinea pigs.


 If they aren't going to make money then they wouldn't offer the treatment at all. Would you like that better?  

Also, I question whether or not the treatment will work at all. I think that the extract from fat cells (AAPE/HARG) is more likely to work than the actual fat cells. Plus even if the fat cells will work it might be very specific fat cells that are required. There are different fat cells.

----------


## rhysmorgan

I could do it, I live in Germany on and off so could go by train to Austria. Although I have been posting on the forum long, so maybe that would put people off.

----------


## Thinning@30

> If they aren't going to make money then they wouldn't offer the treatment at all. Would you like that better?


 <sigh> that is precisely the point.  It is highly unethical to sell unproven treatments.  If these doctors want to test new things they can offer them to patients for free or at cost with full disclosures.  I am so sick of hearing about all this Whitfield and Nigam-type nonsense.

----------


## hgs1989

keep in mind guys that the treament Alias123 did is different than that whixh started this thread. the thread is about injection of growth factors released by culturing fat stem cells while alias123 had injections of fat stem cells.

----------


## Sogeking

To be fair the guys in Austria(where Alias went) specifically say on their webpage that their treatment won't get you all of your hair back and that there might be some regrowth.

----------


## nameless

> <sigh> that is precisely the point.  It is highly unethical to sell unproven treatments.  If these doctors want to test new things they can offer them to patients for free or at cost with full disclosures.  I am so sick of hearing about all this Whitfield and Nigam-type nonsense.


 (sigh) you didn't answer my question. My question was would you prefer to not be offered the treatment at all?

----------


## nameless

> keep in mind guys that the treament Alias123 did is different than that whixh started this thread. the thread is about injection of growth factors released by culturing fat stem cells while alias123 had injections of fat stem cells.


 I've been saying this too. And even though the effective growth factors came from fat cells that does not mean that injecting fat cells will produce the same result. First of all, there are different fat cells and we don't know if the fat cell injection treatment involves the correct fat cells. Some fat cells produce 100 times the amount of these growth factors as other fat cells produce. So right off the bat there is the issue of using the correct fat cells among different fat cells. 

Then there's the issue that the fat cells are a different size, different shape, and different degree of hardness/rigidity from the fat-cell derived growth factors. If you inject the correctfat cells they still might not get to the right locations due to their different size, different shape, and different degree of hardness/rigidity than the growth factors solution. The growth factor solution could probably squeeze into every tiny nook and cranny in the follicles so that means that they could probably get into the correct places, but the fat cells may not be able to do that.

----------


## hellouser

> To be fair the guys in Austria(where Alias went) specifically say on their webpage that their treatment won't get you all of your hair back and that there might be some regrowth.


 Yeah at least they're not making wild promises like Nigam did.

----------


## JZA70

> Yeah at least they're not making wild promises like Nigam did.


 What's sad is that he's still going strong at it.

----------


## 158nikka

Hellouser, are you still using minoxidil and what is your current regimen?

----------


## downandout

maybe a bigger company bought out the patent for this method that was used in the studies.  Therefore, the reason it was so low key and unheard of. Another treatment swept under the rug..

----------


## Xabi

Hey guys,

This is Xabi from the north of Spain, just I want to share with you the feedback that I've had with ARS clinical. Feel free to comment, suggest, whatever, all the best n keep in touch :-)

"Dear Mr. ,

Thank you for your photos.

For your case we propose to perform a FUE with 2.500 hair follicles or Stem Cell treatment with excellent results.

The cost for each treatment, separetaly, will be 8.000 EUROS.

Thank you and looking forward to your feedback.

Sincerely yours,
-- 
Apostolos Karoutis, MSc, MBA
Global Commercial Director
ARSMEDICAL GmbH 
Health & Beauty Treatments
Alpenstrasse 1, ZUG 6300 Switzerland
+41 76 769 65 26 (Switzerland)
+30 69 42 555 330 (Greece)
akaroutis@arsmedical.info / www.arsmedical.info

My response:

"Good morning Apostolos,

Thanks a lot for your time, my idea is to prove this new Stem Cell treatment (Adipose derived stem cell protein extract, right? or is there another one?), due to my business I don't have so much time. Next year will be the best time for me, I want to wait a little bit and read forum members' experiences about this treatment. 

I've been in London 3 years ago for example asking in person to Dr Raghu Reddy about PRP Acell and that treatment isn't appropriate.

As I told you, I'm veteran and I've a big knowledge about this "hair" subject.

One of my main doubts are:

- Results, I know that no much clear proof already: http://news.yale.edu/2011/09/01/yale...-its-time-grow, http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf, but, what can you show me to trust you?.

- How many times do I have to go?, which is the time line of the treatment?, there're 12 hours driving from my house to your clinic in Switzerland and I could go more than 1-2 times.

- Side effects?, SHOCK LOSS?, as I told you, I've been in Vancouver during my post surgery for one month in January 2010 and I know how hard is that one.

Keep in touch, thanks a lot and I look forward to your answer.
X "

----------


## nameless

> Hey guys,
> 
> This is Xabi from the north of Spain, just I want to share with you the feedback that I've had with ARS clinical. Feel free to comment, suggest, whatever, all the best n keep in touch :-)
> 
> "Dear Mr. ,
> 
> Thank you for your photos.
> 
> For your case we propose to perform a FUE with 2.500 hair follicles or Stem Cell treatment with excellent results.
> ...


 
You should use AAPE. That is the treatment that can really regrow your hair. AAPE is an extract from some very specific fat cells. That's the solution.

----------


## Haircure

> You should use AAPE. That is the treatment that can really regrow your hair. AAPE is an extract from some very specific fat cells. That's the solution.


 There's a saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and this is exactly what applies to Nameless and his suggestions. AAPE is simply another POSSIBLE treatment, it is by no means a solution like the simple-minded fellow above chooses to believe.

----------


## hellouser

> You should use AAPE. That is the treatment that can really regrow your hair. AAPE is an extract from some very specific fat cells. That's the solution.


 How can you possibly say something like this without ever seeing VERIFIED results of AAPE on the scalp for hair loss? You are essentially lying to the hair loss community.

----------


## hgs1989

> How can you possibly say something like this without ever seeing VERIFIED results of AAPE on the scalp for hair loss? You are essentially lying to the hair loss community.


 


> There's a saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and this is exactly what applies to Nameless and his suggestions. AAPE is simply another POSSIBLE treatment, it is by no means a solution like the simple-minded fellow above chooses to believe.


 although I don't agree a lot with nameless posts, the science behind AAPE is solid. however my main concern is the product itself might be a scam i.e fancy water with no active ingredients and expensive one too. if not, then it should work. there is a lot of scientific evidence that supports it.I posted a lot of papers that supports it. the only thing that can stop it, is DHT. we can deal with this either orally or topically.the next generation in cosmetics is the use of growth factors to program our cells. not only cosmetics ,one day we might even skip the gym and still be in shape.its use will be widespread and all our concerns with cancer nonsense will be over.in fact the inhibition of some growth factors and activation of others might be used to treat cancer. I my self will try it but I need a skin injector to use. one that is called tappy tok tok or even jm turtle pin but I can't find a place to buy any of them.

----------


## Haircure

> although I don't agree a lot with nameless posts, the science behind AAPE is solid. however my main concern is the product itself might be a scam i.e fancy water with no active ingredients and expensive one too. if not, then it should work. there is a lot of scientific evidence that supports it.I posted a lot of papers that supports it. the only thing that can stop it, is DHT. we can deal with this either orally or topically.the next generation in cosmetics is the use of growth factors to program our cells. not only cosmetics ,one day we might even skip the gym and still be in shape.its use will be widespread and all our concerns with cancer nonsense will be over.in fact the inhibition of some growth factors and activation of others might be used to treat cancer. I my self will try it but I need a skin injector to use. one that is called tappy tok tok or even jm turtle pin but I can't find a place to buy any of them.


 I stand by my statement that this is a POSSIBLE treatment and NOT a solution. I say this because in the study published in the American Journal of Cosmetic surgery, the results were mainly based on a VAG scale, meaning that hair growth was based on satisfaction and subjective visual interpretation by the patients. Also there were only 12 men involved in the study and from what I can recall, they made no mention of the results of all the men, rather they only displayed the results of 2. An objective approach involving the results of all the men, as well as increase in hair count in the treatment area might have been more useful in determining its effectiveness. From this study it seems that the treatment indeed works, but we don't know it's effectiveness and there are a few biases that need to be addressed, especially due to the subjective nature of the results.

If there are other articles, I'd be interested in knowing to what extent this treatment is useful, because as of now it is in my opinion not something significantly better than either Fin and Minox, because even though it's possibly a once every two years kind of treatment, it is highly likely to be much more expensive to be worth the benefit.

----------


## nameless

> How can you possibly say something like this without ever seeing VERIFIED results of AAPE on the scalp for hair loss? You are essentially lying to the hair loss community.


 I'm not lying. 

You're lying. 

There is one study that shows that AAPE grows hair. Some people are saying there are two studies demonstrating that AAPE grows hair. This one study, and possibly two studies, are direct evidence that AAPE grows hair. The study information are in credible peer-reviewed journal)s). This means I not only have direct evidence that AAPE grows hair; it also means that the evidence I have is also credible. 

You have not one shred of evidence that I'm wrong. That means you're the one lying.

There is also solid peripheral evidence supporting my truth and dispelling your lie. I will state some of that peripheral evidence now:

1. Yale University has established that fat cells send the signal to follicles to grow hair. These signals from the fat cells are purportedly growth factors and proteins and these growth factors and proteins are likely the same growth factors and proteins that are in AAPE. At minimum these AAPE contains at least some of these growth factors and proteins. 

2. Histogen uses some of the same growth factors and proteins that are inside AAPE and Histogen grows some hair. Histogen studies did not yield results as good as AAPE but in the AAPE studies the treatment was injected more often than Histogen was injected in the Histogen studies. That alone could, and likely does, explain why Histogen did not get results comparable to AAPE.

3. Dr. Gardner, who is a research scientist working on the Jahoda team, stated right here at this website that the Jahoda team will be incorporating fat cells into their cellular mix, which means that Jahoda/Gardner accept that there's something about fat cells that promote hair growth. Most likely, Gardner/Jahoda accept the results published by Yale. 

4. Dr. Gardner stated that they wanted to use fat cells rather than the actual growth factors because they posit that growth factors are unstable and expensive. They did not say that the growth factors in fat cells are irrelevant; they simply said that they would rather use the fat cells than the growth factors themselves. This does make sense because if you can get the fat cells into the right place then those cells would be continuously producing the desired signals for follicles to grow hair. But we do not know for sure yet that fat cells will be as effective as the growth factors extracted from fat cells are (AAPE). It is possible that the growth factors from fat cells might work but the fat cells themselves might not work. So the scientific community's effort to utilize fat cells rather than growth factors from those same fat cells might be a multi-year waste of time. 

5. My last piece of peripheral evidence that AAPE is a highly promising therapy that would likely give us what we want is posts by a man who calls himself Hellouser. You. You have posted repeatedly expressing optimism about fat cells for hair growth. You the person who calls me a liar (regarding my optimism about AAPE) has expressed optimism that fat cells might work and of course AAPE is at least some of the stuff that's inside of fat cells that makes fat cells promising. 

6. You are optimistic about fat cells even though there is no direct evidence that injecting fat cells will work and like I've said, it is possible that the cells themselves might not work even though the growth factors from the cells appear to work. The cells are a different size, shape, and substance. They might not be able to get into every location necessary to do what's required of them. But the AAPE extract is a liquid derived from the cells and that could make it easier for the AAPE extract to get into every necessary nook and cranny of the follicles.

----------


## nameless

> I stand by my statement that this is a POSSIBLE treatment and NOT a solution. I say this because in the study published in the American Journal of Cosmetic surgery, the results were mainly based on a VAG scale, meaning that hair growth was based on satisfaction and subjective visual interpretation by the patients. Also there were only 12 men involved in the study and from what I can recall, they made no mention of the results of all the men, rather they only displayed the results of 2. An objective approach involving the results of all the men, as well as increase in hair count in the treatment area might have been more useful in determining its effectiveness. From this study it seems that the treatment indeed works, but we don't know it's effectiveness and there are a few biases that need to be addressed, especially due to the subjective nature of the results.
> 
> If there are other articles, I'd be interested in knowing to what extent this treatment is useful, because as of now it is in my opinion not something significantly better than either Fin and Minox, because even though it's possibly a once every two years kind of treatment, it is highly likely to be much more expensive to be worth the benefit.


 Here is what they said about the ALL of the test patients:

Results: All patients experienced increased hair growth 
from the treatments with ADSC-CM. Four treatment sessions 
performed within 3 to 4 months provided especially good 
results. Scores on the visual analog scale increased with 
treatment frequency. Statistical signifi cance was determined 
by Friedman’s 2-way analysis of variance (P < .01) and 
Wilcoxon’s signed rank test (P < .01).

They ALL grew hair. All of them. Did some grow more hair than others? It would appear so, but it would also appear that the ones who got lesser results are the ones who got less treatments. That just goes to show that you should use it at least once a month but I would use it once every 2 weeks for the first 4 months and then after that I would use it once every  4 to 6 months for maintenance. I think it is the best potential solution we have for the near-term, and I also think that if it turns out that injecting fat cells will not work even though injecting the growth factors from fat cells appears to work then it will take science years to figure that out and then years from now they will say "Well, the fat cells won't work, it's back to the drawing board." Is it possible that the fat cells could work? Yes. But we don't know that yet. And there's something else to keep in mind: it is not just any fat cells. it's a very specific group of fat cells that are needed.

----------


## nameless

> although I don't agree a lot with nameless posts, the science behind AAPE is solid. however my main concern is the product itself might be a scam i.e fancy water with no active ingredients and expensive one too. if not, then it should work. there is a lot of scientific evidence that supports it.I posted a lot of papers that supports it. the only thing that can stop it, is DHT. we can deal with this either orally or topically.the next generation in cosmetics is the use of growth factors to program our cells. not only cosmetics ,one day we might even skip the gym and still be in shape.its use will be widespread and all our concerns with cancer nonsense will be over.in fact the inhibition of some growth factors and activation of others might be used to treat cancer. I my self will try it but I need a skin injector to use. one that is called tappy tok tok or even jm turtle pin but I can't find a place to buy any of them.


 I, and a few others, have tried to contact the scientists who worked with the one AAPE study we have all seen. We have tried to contact them at their stated email address and at the company whe3re some of them work. They do not respond. They are not trying to sell anything. It's pretty obvious that they did that study because they wanted to see something. But they are not selling the treatment. I do not believe this is a scam at all. I think it's Histogen only better because AAPE is produced by the body. It's the hair growing extract produced inside the fat cells in our bodies. It's what nature uses to grow hair on our heads.

----------


## hgs1989

> I stand by my statement that this is a POSSIBLE treatment and NOT a solution. I say this because in the study published in the American Journal of Cosmetic surgery, the results were mainly based on a VAG scale, meaning that hair growth was based on satisfaction and subjective visual interpretation by the patients. Also there were only 12 men involved in the study and from what I can recall, they made no mention of the results of all the men, rather they only displayed the results of 2. An objective approach involving the results of all the men, as well as increase in hair count in the treatment area might have been more useful in determining its effectiveness. From this study it seems that the treatment indeed works, but we don't know it's effectiveness and there are a few biases that need to be addressed, especially due to the subjective nature of the results.
> 
> 
> If there are other articles, I'd be interested in knowing to what extent this treatment is useful, because as of now it is in my opinion not something significantly better than either Fin and Minox, because even though it's possibly a once every two years kind of treatment, it is highly likely to be much more expensive to be worth the benefit.


 When I say that there is a lot of studies and articles that support it, I mean the use of growth factors. any product that is based on a ****tail of signaling proteins should help with hair regrowth. the concentration and the frequency of the treatment is what need to be determined. this treatment(AAPE) is but one of those treatment based on growth factors. the study results is so good for me. I would be satisfied with these results. and there is another study posted by someone here http://www.haargroeispecialist.nl/re...ilot-study.pdf . this study was based on women and topical application of growth factors after micro needling. keep in mind that those results can be improved with further sessions; say every two weeks or one month. the down side is that it is a life time commitment. nothing will stop DHT from telling your follicle to shrink. so we need something to keep telling them to grow hair. I want more clinics to adopt the injection of growth factors. it will happen once we are comfortable with them.

----------


## zeos

@hgs1989

what do you(and others)  think about this treatment? 

http://integratedskincare.net/files/63390656.pdf

----------


## Haircure

> @hgs1989
> 
> what do you(and others)  think about this treatment? 
> 
> http://integratedskincare.net/files/63390656.pdf


 Seems sketchy to me, even though they have all those fancy diagrams, a few photos and simple explanations how it supposedly works, there any real evidence. By this I mean, any formal study done to explain and provide proof of their treatment as well as information regarding the details of their patient trials and results.

With that all being said, the results look pretty week in the photos, and by no means do they seem to indicate a more effective treatment than what we have unfortunately.

----------


## hgs1989

> @hgs1989
> 
> what do you(and others)  think about this treatment? 
> 
> http://integratedskincare.net/files/63390656.pdf


 the ingredients listed are the same in a topical called renokin. I my self tried and it didn't work. the ingredients have been shown to b related to hair follicle development. maybe as an injection it will perform better. it is hard to say. if the price is good, you can try it yourself.

----------


## Haircure

> Here is what they said about the ALL of the test patients:
> 
> Results: All patients experienced increased hair growth 
> from the treatments with ADSC-CM. Four treatment sessions 
> performed within 3 to 4 months provided especially good 
> results. Scores on the visual analog scale increased with 
> treatment frequency. Statistical signifi cance was determined 
> by Friedman’s 2-way analysis of variance (P < .01) and 
> Wilcoxon’s signed rank test (P < .01).
> ...


  I don't think you have much experience reading scientific articles, or maybe you just have difficulty understanding them. First off, VAS is a self report method, and is filled out by the patient, and therefore is a SUBJECTIVE report. This means that they score what they believe is results, rather than actual quantitative evidence such as trichoscan hair counts, density, etc. yes they said all of the he patients experienced growth, but did you even read my post? Or did you just simply cherry pick through my arguments? I did not question the validity of the study, I question it's effectiveness. That means that I want to know how well it works, and not just based on a small trial of 12 men, because we do not know the success rate or the quantifiable average hair growth over the treatment period.

You previously called this THE SOLUTION, and began to call out other members as being weak and wasting their lives whining about their hair loss rather than taking an AAPE treatment. Now you claim that this MIGHT be a treatment, which is a stark contrast to your former juvenile post. 

I'd like to offer some genuine advice again, shorten your posts and SUMMARIZE, clogging up a thread with numerous consecutive page long replies isn't doing you any favours.

----------


## zeos

> the ingredients listed are the same in a topical called renokin. I my self tried and it didn't work. the ingredients have been shown to b related to hair follicle development. maybe as an injection it will perform better. it is hard to say. if the price is good, you can try it yourself.


 yeah , M.Booster Hair has the renokin ingredients and you have to combine  M.Booster Hair with  Dermaheal Stem C’rum HL or  Dermaheal HL,
here can you see the list of their ingredients(what do you think ?):
http://dermahealproducts.com/stem-c-...hair-loss.html
http://dermahealproducts.com/dermahe...-solution.html

----------


## Xabi

Hi again guys,

It's very interesting all that you speak. They haven't responded me yet, for me the key question is: "what can you show me to trust you?."

The first courageous patients' experiences will be our best test, all we need is time, as always.

In case that it will be okay, my main concern is side effects specially shock loss.

I let you know my experience if I´ll make it.

Best,
Xabi  :Big Grin:

----------


## nameless

> I don't think you have much experience reading scientific articles, or maybe you just have difficulty understanding them. First off, VAS is a self report method, and is filled out by the patient, and therefore is a SUBJECTIVE report. This means that they score what they believe is results, rather than actual quantitative evidence such as trichoscan hair counts, density, etc. yes they said all of the he patients experienced growth, but did you even read my post? Or did you just simply cherry pick through my arguments? I did not question the validity of the study, I question it's effectiveness. That means that I want to know how well it works, and not just based on a small trial of 12 men, because we do not know the success rate or the quantifiable average hair growth over the treatment period.
> 
> You previously called this THE SOLUTION, and began to call out other members as being weak and wasting their lives whining about their hair loss rather than taking an AAPE treatment. Now you claim that this MIGHT be a treatment, which is a stark contrast to your former juvenile post. 
> 
> I'd like to offer some genuine advice again, shorten your posts and SUMMARIZE, clogging up a thread with numerous consecutive page long replies isn't doing you any favours.


 * I used to read studies a lot but don't anymore. I admit that I did not know what VAS meant. Thanks for telling me. It doesn't matter. I  liked the pics, and i liked what the study said. As evidence goes, it was good enough for me. The people involved seem highly HIGHLY credible because they aren't even trying to sell anything. 

* I notice you didn't mention the 2nd study involving the same treatment. 

* I notice you also didn't mention that Yale research into fat cells supports the concept that AAPE is based on.

* I notice that you did not mention that Histogen proved to grow some hair, and Histogen did not inject as frequently as the AAPE study researchers did. Also, the AAPE study growth factors/proteins, while similar to Histogen growth factors/proteins, could be more ideal because AAPE growth factors/proteins are the exact growth factors/proteins that nature set up in the fat cells to grow hair whereas Histogen's similar growth factors/proteins are derived from a different source.

* I notice you also didn't mention that Dr. Gardner's (Part of Jahoda's team) and Dr. Jahoda's plan to use fat cells supports the concept that AAPE is based on. 

My optimism is based on all of this evidence collectively, plus the study you value. Based on all of this evidence I assert my position that AAPE is a very VERY promising treatment for hair loss and it's the best near-term treament idea that we have right now. Everything is a joke except injecting fat cells, although that might not work because injected fat cells may not end up in the key locations of the follicles. 

Of course you want to devalue my idea because you want to continue your idea of griping like a girl for years and accomplishing nothing. My idea has a lot more hope and promise than your idea does. Your idea is guaranteed not to grow even one hair because your idea is to sit and gripe for years on end.

----------


## nameless

> * I used to read studies a lot but don't anymore. I admit that I did not know what VAS meant. Thanks for telling me. It doesn't matter. I  liked the pics, and i liked what the study said. As evidence goes, it was good enough for me. The people involved seem highly HIGHLY credible because they aren't even trying to sell anything. 
> 
> * I notice you didn't mention the 2nd study involving the same treatment. 
> 
> * I notice you also didn't mention that Yale research into fat cells supports the concept that AAPE is based on.
> 
> * I notice that you did not mention that Histogen proved to grow some hair, and Histogen did not inject as frequently as the AAPE study researchers did. Also, the AAPE study growth factors/proteins, while similar to Histogen growth factors/proteins, could be more ideal because AAPE growth factors/proteins are the exact growth factors/proteins that nature set up in the fat cells to grow hair whereas Histogen's similar growth factors/proteins are derived from a different source.
> 
> * I notice you also didn't mention that Dr. Gardner's (Part of Jahoda's team) and Dr. Jahoda's plan to use fat cells supports the concept that AAPE is based on. 
> ...


 
I was at work when I typed/posted the above so I made some typos. The two typos both come into the next to the last paragraph above. In one case I said, "My optimism is based on all of this evidence collectively, plus the study you value" and I mean to say "devalue" instead of "value." Also, in the same paragraph I said, "Everything is a joke except injecting fat cells" and i meant to say "Everything else near-term is a joke except injecting fat cells."

----------


## Haircure

> * I used to read studies a lot but don't anymore. I admit that I did not know what VAS meant. Thanks for telling me. It doesn't matter. I  liked the pics, and i liked what the study said. As evidence goes, it was good enough for me. The people involved seem highly HIGHLY credible because they aren't even trying to sell anything. 
> 
> * I notice you didn't mention the 2nd study involving the same treatment. 
> 
> * I notice you also didn't mention that Yale research into fat cells supports the concept that AAPE is based on.
> 
> * I notice that you did not mention that Histogen proved to grow some hair, and Histogen did not inject as frequently as the AAPE study researchers did. Also, the AAPE study growth factors/proteins, while similar to Histogen growth factors/proteins, could be more ideal because AAPE growth factors/proteins are the exact growth factors/proteins that nature set up in the fat cells to grow hair whereas Histogen's similar growth factors/proteins are derived from a different source.
> 
> * I notice you also didn't mention that Dr. Gardner's (Part of Jahoda's team) and Dr. Jahoda's plan to use fat cells supports the concept that AAPE is based on. 
> ...


 Here's what I notice:

You say you used to read studies, but that's completely different from understanding them, which clearly you do not, and apparently you can't read very well either, since you seem to skim through the article about AAPE and simply didn't think it was worth the time to understand it. Rather it's quite obvious you look for information to confirm and support your own ideas (Confirmation Bias) rather than simply looking at the study itself and all that it details. It was very clearly stated what the VAG method was, and what it meant. It isn't a very useful study due to response bias. This means that the subjects who were given self-reports (VAG) may well have overestimated their satisfaction in order to generate the "desired" results which the researchers were looking for. There are other biases, that I didn't mention, but you get the idea, anytime you use a self-survey method, which is based on subjective observations, these things need to be accounted for. 

In response to Histogen, Dr. Gardner's/Jahoda's research, and the Yale study, all of these are simply Concepts, ideas, theories, educated assumptions, which as far as I know have not yet been studied via clinical tests on people. They may be good ideas, and then again they may present some problems, the point is we don't know yet.

What you need to to understand is that you cannot make claims such as "AARP is the solution" without even knowing it's effectiveness. We do not know how well it works, if it is better than fin or minox, because the study didn't supply the data. You say you are impressed by some pictures, fine if that's all what you merit to be compelling evidence, that's your own opinion, albeit a flawed perspective, especially in the hair loss industry. But the main problem I have with you is, you simply are to narrow-minded to consider the many missing variables and seem to latch on to every treatment that gives you some pretty pictures and claim it's the answer and call others to do it, otherwise we are some whiny girls losing our hair.

----------


## nameless

> Here's what I notice:
> 
> You say you used to read studies, but that's completely different from understanding them, which clearly you do not, and apparently you can't read very well either, since you seem to skim through the article about AAPE and simply didn't think it was worth the time to understand it. Rather it's quite obvious you look for information to confirm and support your own ideas (Confirmation Bias) rather than simply looking at the study itself and all that it details. It was very clearly stated what the VAG method was, and what it meant. It isn't a very useful study due to response bias. This means that the subjects who were given self-reports (VAG) may well have overestimated their satisfaction in order to generate the "desired" results which the researchers were looking for. There are other biases, that I didn't mention, but you get the idea, anytime you use a self-survey method, which is based on subjective observations, these things need to be accounted for. 
> 
> In response to Histogen, Dr. Gardner's/Jahoda's research, and the Yale study, all of these are simply Concepts, ideas, theories, educated assumptions, which as far as I know have not yet been studied via clinical tests on people. They may be good ideas, and then again they may present some problems, the point is we don't know yet.
> 
> What you need to to understand is that you cannot make claims such as "AARP is the solution" without even knowing it's effectiveness. We do not know how well it works, if it is better than fin or minox, because the study didn't supply the data. You say you are impressed by some pictures, fine if that's all what you merit to be compelling evidence, that's your own opinion, albeit a flawed perspective, especially in the hair loss industry. But the main problem I have with you is, you simply are to narrow-minded to consider the many missing variables and seem to latch on to every treatment that gives you some pretty pictures and claim it's the answer and call others to do it, otherwise we are some whiny girls losing our hair.


 
I understand the studies better than you realize. 

My main problem with you is that you are a "paralysis by analysis" time-wasting girly-man griper. Guys like you don't move forward because you waste too much time. Even now you foolishly talk about how the fat cells information gathered by Yale and being put into clinical research by Jahoda, Gardner, and many other researchers is nothing but a "concept idea." of course this means that now you're griping because it's not fully vetted. And when is it going to be fully vetted? Oh in about 4 or 5 years. So right off the bat this is another example of your silly "paralysis by analysis" time-wasting. And what will you be doing during the 3, 4, or 5 year delay while researchers fully vet "concept idea" for you? Well, you will be going to websites like tb.t to gripe like a girl how there's nothing available. 

You're a weak person and you waste time because of your weakness.

Open up your eyes! AAPE is nature's very own version of Histogen's HSC. That's the point. AAPE is Histogen made by mommy nature. Combined with other ingredients it turns into HARG. 

Histogen owns HSC so you can't make it or get it until Histogen says OK. But you could possibly get AAPE/HARG except for the fact that you're too busy griping like a girl and "paralysis by analysis" wasting time. 

The evidence is sufficient. We should not waste years while Science gathers more proof that AAPE/HARG should solve our problem. We already have enough info to realize that unless we are of the nature to fritter away years griping like girls and "paralysis by analysis" delaying. 

You need to get your head on straight! You need to stop over-analyzing things. You need to stop trying to "Play" a scientist at hair websites and instead start doing the smart thing to get your hair back instead.

----------


## nameless

> Here's what I notice:
> 
> You say you used to read studies, but that's completely different from understanding them, which clearly you do not, and apparently you can't read very well either, since you seem to skim through the article about AAPE and simply didn't think it was worth the time to understand it. Rather it's quite obvious you look for information to confirm and support your own ideas (Confirmation Bias) rather than simply looking at the study itself and all that it details. It was very clearly stated what the VAG method was, and what it meant. It isn't a very useful study due to response bias. This means that the subjects who were given self-reports (VAG) may well have overestimated their satisfaction in order to generate the "desired" results which the researchers were looking for. There are other biases, that I didn't mention, but you get the idea, anytime you use a self-survey method, which is based on subjective observations, these things need to be accounted for. 
> 
> In response to Histogen, Dr. Gardner's/Jahoda's research, and the Yale study, all of these are simply Concepts, ideas, theories, educated assumptions, which as far as I know have not yet been studied via clinical tests on people. They may be good ideas, and then again they may present some problems, the point is we don't know yet.
> 
> What you need to to understand is that you cannot make claims such as "AARP is the solution" without even knowing it's effectiveness. We do not know how well it works, if it is better than fin or minox, because the study didn't supply the data. You say you are impressed by some pictures, fine if that's all what you merit to be compelling evidence, that's your own opinion, albeit a flawed perspective, especially in the hair loss industry. But the main problem I have with you is, you simply are to narrow-minded to consider the many missing variables and seem to latch on to every treatment that gives you some pretty pictures and claim it's the answer and call others to do it, otherwise we are some whiny girls losing our hair.


 
All we have to do is start an AAPE/HARG clinic in The Bahamas and we can put a lot of our nightmare behind us. We gripe about big companies and researchers but it is our own failure to act that is keeping us bald. The evidence just keeps piling up while we twiddle our thumbs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20203417

TEXT:

Adipose-derived stem cells (ADSCs) and their secretomes mediate diverse skin-regeneration effects, such as wound-healing and antioxidant protection, that are enhanced by hypoxia. We investigated the hair-growth-promoting effect of conditioned medium (CM) of ADSCs to determine if ADSCs and their secretomes regenerate hair and if hypoxia enhances hair regeneration. If so, we wanted to identify the factors responsible for hypoxia-enhanced hair-regeneration. We found that ADSC-CM administrated subcutaneously induced the anagen phase and increased hair regeneration in C(3)H/NeH mice. In addition, ADSC-CM increased the proliferation of human follicle dermal papilla cells (HFDPCs) and human epithelial keratinocytes (HEKs), which are derived from two major cell types present in hair follicles. We investigated the effect of hypoxia on ADSC function using the same animal model in which hypoxia increased hair regrowth. Forty-one growth factors in ADSC-CM from cells cultured under hypoxic or normoxic conditions were analyzed. The secretion of insulin-like growth factor binding protein (IGFBP)-1, IGFBP-2, macrophage colony-stimulating factor (M-CSF), M-CSF receptor, platelet-derived growth factor receptor-beta, and vascular endothelial growth factor was significantly increased by hypoxia, while the secretion of epithelial growth factor production was decreased. It is reasonable to conclude that ADSCs promote hair growth via a paracrine mechanism that is enhanced by hypoxia.

----------


## ShookOnes

how much would this cost over a lifetime?

----------


## nameless

> There's a place in Shanghai, China that also uses Adipose Stem Cells for hair loss! See here:
> 
> http://www.stellen.com.cn/Eng/Mira.aspx?id=7


 
I wonder what their before and after photos look like for patients who get adipose derived stem cell implants for hair growth. This could be a cure if the treatment is legitimate.  If they give you what they say they're giving you.

----------


## nameless

> Great man. What is their method then? They extract it, seperate it and immediately inject it or what? Btw, how hard is it do yourself? Is there anyone here with lab experience, obviously you would need the equipment etc. But seems like it is rather easy? 5000 euro is alot, very curious what it will cost through this swiss lab.


 I think they should be cultured in hypoxic conditions

----------


## nameless

Where in Korea can you get this treatment?

----------


## nameless

Of course you are right but some of the guys will get substitutes, it won't work, and then they''ll say AAPE doesn't work even though they never got real AAPE formulated, packaged, stored, and shipped correctly.

----------


## nameless

It appears that they're not from fat cells but they're part of fat tissue.

----------


## nameless

> Alias, with all due respect, there's no point asking swooping, no-one will know, as the treatment isn't yet widely used.
> The research produced is hopeful though, even though the process isn't exactly the same, so that should help you make your decision. 
> I too have said that I would like the treatment with them, and now trying to work out a suitable consultation date.
> 
> On another note, and this is directed to everyone looking at this thread;
> 
> How would we inject this stuff and how would we know if they really did what they told you they would do?
> 
> I have been in contact with a number of labs (mainly in europe) who take stem cells from your adipose tissue sample (which you send them) and will then cultivate the stem cells under hypoxic conditions (as documented in the research by Fukuoka). They will then extract the secreted growth factors and provide in return a lyophilised product, which you then mix with some sort of reagent to then inject.
> ...


 
How would we inject this stuff and how would we know if they really did what they told you they would do? There is some concern that they could send us back saline solution or some other gimmick. Are the labs legitimate?

----------


## nameless

> after being in touch with both of the companies, the one in vienna and the one in switzerland/greece i have gotten different responses.
> the once in switzerland/Greece is 8000 euro and the one in vienna is 5000 euro. the one for 8000 promises complete stop of hairloss and regrowth, but the one for 5000 says : 
> 
> <<and does it completley stop loss for how long?
> 
> it prompts new growth, we have not evaluated whether it also stops the loss, but probably reduces the loss as you will have more hair after treatment.
> 
> http://ddrheinrich.com/ is the one for 5000
> http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html is the one for 8000.
> Please guide me in my choice of treatment, i find it really hard to think that one for almost twice the amount is THAT much better? thank you.


 
The Switzerland treatment uses the more appropriate cells. That's why they can promise a better response.

----------


## nameless

> thank you HGS1989, but im living near vienna so the one for 5000 would actually be much more convienient then going to boston! but do you think the one in vienna is legit? that is the one for 5000 based on the journals posted earlier by me above, the link again
> http://stemcelltherapy.cc/stem-cell-...n-hair-tissue/


 
Alias the one in Boston is NOT the same as the one in Switzerland. The one in Boston is SVR, which has a little bit of adipose stem cells but it also has other stuff inside and it has a low content of adipose derived stem cells. 

Alias the best one is the one in Switzerland if they are telling the truth about what they do. If they are harvesting fat tissue, separating the adipose derived stem cells, culturing those cells and then injecting them into you scalp then that is your best chance. And that is what you said they are doing. I would do the one in Switzerland if I was you. Yea, it's more expensive but if they are doing what they they claim it would probably give you the best result.

----------


## nameless

> Agreed. Haven't done any research into all this, skimmed through this topic but I'd be VERY VERY skeptical, at first sight all this looks like another snake oil to me, but can't say just yet. Did anyone do any research ? Into the authors of the study etc ?


 
I don't think it's snake oil but I do think he should have gotten the swiss one instead. It looks like he got SVR, which is a bunch of stuff that includes adipose derived stem cells. But the Swiss treatment looks like pure adipose derived stem cells. That sounds like the way to do this. It's too bad it's so expensive.

----------


## Haircure

> I understand the studies better than you realize. 
> 
> My main problem with you is that you are a "paralysis by analysis" time-wasting girly-man griper. Guys like you don't move forward because you waste too much time. Even now you foolishly talk about how the fat cells information gathered by Yale and being put into clinical research by Jahoda, Gardner, and many other researchers is nothing but a "concept idea." of course this means that now you're griping because it's not fully vetted. And when is it going to be fully vetted? Oh in about 4 or 5 years. So right off the bat this is another example of your silly "paralysis by analysis" time-wasting. And what will you be doing during the 3, 4, or 5 year delay while researchers fully vet "concept idea" for you? Well, you will be going to websites like tb.t to gripe like a girl how there's nothing available. 
> 
> You're a weak person and you waste time because of your weakness.
> 
> Open up your eyes! AAPE is nature's very own version of Histogen's HSC. That's the point. AAPE is Histogen made by mommy nature. Combined with other ingredients it turns into HARG. 
> 
> Histogen owns HSC so you can't make it or get it until Histogen says OK. But you could possibly get AAPE/HARG except for the fact that you're too busy griping like a girl and "paralysis by analysis" wasting time. 
> ...


 How do you understand studies when you can't even read them properly? It's incredibly ironic you keep bringing up my apparent "griping" because I recall that your in your late 40s and have been involved with many hair loss forums for years crying and complaining how life is unfair. What's worse is that every single forum you've joined, the only thing you've done is annoy  and disrespect members, spam irrelevant long posts, and support snake oil treatments and people like Nigam for god knows what reason. Do everyone a favour here, and actually try to post something relevant and meaningful and actually TRY to understand what you read from scientific articles and then maybe you can put that "120 IQ" to some use.

----------


## nameless

> How do you understand studies when you can't even read them properly? It's incredibly ironic you keep bringing up my apparent "griping" because I recall that your in your late 40s and have been involved with many hair loss forums for years crying and complaining how life is unfair. What's worse is that every single forum you've joined, the only thing you've done is annoy  and disrespect members, spam irrelevant long posts, and support snake oil treatments and people like Nigam for god knows what reason. Do everyone a favour here, and actually try to post something relevant and meaningful and actually TRY to understand what you read from scientific articles and then maybe you can put that "120 IQ" to some use.


 
* There's a difference between my griping and yours. I'm pro-active and willing to consider things that are rooted in good science whereas you gripe while you dismiss treatments that are rooted in good science. It's OK to gripe if you also be a man about it and do what you can to solve your problem, but to gripe while you reject solutions that are staring you in the face is weakness. This is what our disagreement has been about all along but I guess you forgot that. 

* It doesn't matter if some people have gotten annoyed by me; it just matters whether or not I'm right or wrong. The sub-par intellects got annoyed with Galileo too. And at one point or another almost every poster at every site has gotten at least one other poster annoyed. 

* Give me a break! I don't support snake oil treatments. The treatments I support are rooted in good science at the time I support them. 

* I have stated many time my reason for supporting Nigam - he's willing to try things that the researchers are only doing in the labs. I've said this hundreds of times but for God knows what reason you're incapable of comprehending my position. And of course I have a valid point - Dr. Nigam is one of very few clinicians who would be willing to try things years before they're approved. Now don't forget to complain in your next post that you don't understand why I support Dr. Nigam.

* I reject everything you've said in your post. It's all bs or irrelevant. 

* I'm still somewhat interested in AAPE but my latest idea is to try adipose derived stem cells.

----------


## Arashi

> How do you understand studies when you can't even read them properly? It's incredibly ironic you keep bringing up my apparent "griping" because I recall that your in your late 40s and have been involved with many hair loss forums for years crying and complaining how life is unfair. What's worse is that every single forum you've joined, the only thing you've done is annoy  and disrespect members, spam irrelevant long posts, and support snake oil treatments and people like Nigam for god knows what reason. Do everyone a favour here, and actually try to post something relevant and meaningful and actually TRY to understand what you read from scientific articles and then maybe you can put that "120 IQ" to some use.


 Best post in this 25 page thread !

----------


## Alias123

Update!

cut my hair short straight after the treatment to notice loss closer. Cant say i got any regrowth in the small bald areas around my temples, but also cant really say if i got any further loss. At this point i should atleast see small small hairs at the temples if it works, but again its only been 4 weeks and results should take 4-12 weeks... anyway if you have any further questions just know that i am still following my process with hope that it will atleast stop my loss.

----------


## Arashi

> How do you understand studies when you can't even read them properly? It's incredibly ironic you keep bringing up my apparent "griping" because I recall that your in your late 40s and have been involved with many hair loss forums for years crying and complaining how life is unfair. What's worse is that every single forum you've joined, the only thing you've done is annoy  and disrespect members, spam irrelevant long posts, and support snake oil treatments and people like Nigam for god knows what reason. Do everyone a favour here, and actually try to post something relevant and meaningful and actually TRY to understand what you read from scientific articles and then maybe you can put that "120 IQ" to some use.


 I would have to add though, that THE worst thing he did was not his promotion of scammers like Nigam. THE worst thing JarJarbinx did, was scare away dr Aaron Gardner. Dr Aaron Gardner was like a gift from god to this community, sharing his extremely valuable insights and then JarJarbinx started spamming him with his zillion stupid pages long irrevant questions. I was amazed dr Gardner kept up with it for so long.

----------


## hellouser

> I would have to add though, that THE worst thing he did was not his promotion of scammers like Nigam. THE worst thing JarJarbinx did, was scare away dr Aaron Gardner. Dr Aaron Gardner was like a gift from god to this community, sharing his extremely valuable insights and then JarJarbinx started spamming him with his zillion stupid pages long irrevant questions. I was amazed dr Gardner kept up with it for so long.


  :Frown:

----------


## nameless

> I would have to add though, that THE worst thing he did was not his promotion of scammers like Nigam. THE worst thing JarJarbinx did, was scare away dr Aaron Gardner. Dr Aaron Gardner was like a gift from god to this community, sharing his extremely valuable insights and then JarJarbinx started spamming him with his zillion stupid pages long irrevant questions. I was amazed dr Gardner kept up with it for so long.


 
You don't know why Gardner left. For all we know it was your posts that drove Gardner away. More likely it was no specific person's post that drove Gardner away. And you're baseless accusation that my posts drove him away is just another unfounded claim such as your delusion that needhairasap works for the Pilox outfit. 

Why anyone respects your opinion is beyond me. You are more often than not wrong and you say things that are based on nothing.

----------


## nameless

> Update!
> 
> cut my hair short straight after the treatment to notice loss closer. Cant say i got any regrowth in the small bald areas around my temples, but also cant really say if i got any further loss. At this point i should atleast see small small hairs at the temples if it works, but again its only been 4 weeks and results should take 4-12 weeks... anyway if you have any further questions just know that i am still following my process with hope that it will atleast stop my loss.


 I think that it looks like the Swiss treatment would have been much better. The Swiss treatment seems to involve PURE cultured adipose derived stem cells whereas the treatment you used looks like it involves SVF which is a mixture of things rather than being pure adipose derived stem cells and it may contain too little adipose derived stem cells.

----------


## nameless

> I would have to add though, that THE worst thing he did was not his promotion of scammers like Nigam. THE worst thing JarJarbinx did, was scare away dr Aaron Gardner. Dr Aaron Gardner was like a gift from god to this community, sharing his extremely valuable insights and then JarJarbinx started spamming him with his zillion stupid pages long irrevant questions. I was amazed dr Gardner kept up with it for so long.


 After looking things over it has become clear that Gardner actually left because of your posts.

----------


## nameless

> 


 Hellouser where is the proof that Dr. Gardner left because of something I said? Is there one shred of evidence to prove that? I mean evidence other than Arishi's wild baseless accusations. I mean REAL evidence.

----------


## rhysmorgan

> Update!
> 
> cut my hair short straight after the treatment to notice loss closer. Cant say i got any regrowth in the small bald areas around my temples, but also cant really say if i got any further loss. At this point i should atleast see small small hairs at the temples if it works, but again its only been 4 weeks and results should take 4-12 weeks... anyway if you have any further questions just know that i am still following my process with hope that it will atleast stop my loss.


 Thanks man, 4 weeks is way too early. I'd imagine at 12 you'd start noticing if it's working or not.

----------


## Sogeking

> Update!
> 
> cut my hair short straight after the treatment to notice loss closer. Cant say i got any regrowth in the small bald areas around my temples, but also cant really say if i got any further loss. At this point i should atleast see small small hairs at the temples if it works, but again its only been 4 weeks and results should take 4-12 weeks... anyway if you have any further questions just know that i am still following my process with hope that it will atleast stop my loss.


  Thank you for the update Alias keep us appraised.

----------


## nameless

We should stop the childish arguments. We all have the same objective. And I'm accused of a lot of stuff that's bs. Haircare says that everywhere I go I annoy people, but that's just because it's the same people who are mad at me from a different site. The fact of the matter is that if I had never defended Nigam there would be no more arguing between myself and other posters than anyone else and other posters. I disagree with the majority about Nigam. I have the right to my opinion and free speech allows me to say my opinion about Nigam as much as anyone can say their opinion about Nigam. Since the arguing is mostly about Nigam why don't we all keep that in mind and try to focus on more productive issues. There is not one shred of evidence that anything i said got Dr. Gardner to leave. This accusation by Arishi is like so many of Arishi's unfounded statements, such as his statements that the trichogenicity issue was resolved and needhairasap is on the Pilox payroll. Arishi is full of it. Let's get back to our collective goal of finding a cure for hair loss. 

I'm thinking about getting adipose derived stem cell injections. Has anyone regrown hair using adipose derived stem cell injections?

----------


## nameless

I wonder if we organized a group to go to Switzerland to get their treatment - true and pure adipose derived stem cells - if we could get a discount? What do you think?

Maybe we could get a hundred people, or even more than a hundred, to have the Swiss treatment if they would give us some kind of group discount. What does everyone think?

----------


## zeos

http://www.arsmedical.info/stem-cell...tem-cells.html

Autologous Transplantation or Autotransplantation is the transplantation of organs, tissues or even proteins from one part of the body to another in the same individual. Tissue transplanted by such "autologous" procedure is referred to as an autograft or autotransplant. It is contrasted with xenotransplantation (from other species) andallotransplantation (from other individual of same species).

The full procedure of Autologous Adipose-derived Adult Stem Cell Transplantation.

The procedure is done without general anesthesia.The entire procedure takes around four hours.

The process is completed in the following steps:

1. Local anesthesia. Local anesthesia to the skin, which will be taking the fat from unwanted area.

2. Harvest Harvest 100cc of adipose tissue, like a  mini-liposuction procedure.

3. Separate. Adult Stem Cells (ASCs) is separated from the fat cells and isolated from other cells.

4. Activate. ASCs are activated using specialized laser light.

5. Return. The cells are then administered back -tranplant- to the patient through one or more of the following modes of administration:                                                                                           
a) Intravenous: The ASCs are administered through a standard intravenous infusion.(more)

b) Topical: The ASCs are administered directly into a localized area different from their tissue of origin .(more)

c) Fat Transfer: The ASCs are mixed with the fat filler - biomaterial mix before reintroduction .(more)

d) Bank: Bank of stem cells is vital for certain procedures that require repeated administration. This is done under the EU GMP  protocol .(more)

----------


## nameless

I definitely believe we want to use PURE adiposed derived stem cells, and lots of them, rather than using SVF, which contains some useless stuff. In America we can get SVF but we can't get pure adipose derived stem cells. 

The more I look at the evidence I can't tell if it's best to use cultured adipose derived stem cells or fresh adipose derived stem cells. There appears to be some evidence that cultured adipose derived stem cells may lose some of their potency during culture. 

I am not the reason Dr. Gardner stopped talking to the board. Arishi's claim that I caused Dr. Gardner to leave is another baseless incorrect statement by Arishi among dozens of baseless inaccurate statements by Arishi.

----------


## Haircure

> We should stop the childish arguments. We all have the same objective. And I'm accused of a lot of stuff that's bs. Haircare says that everywhere I go I annoy people, but that's just because it's the same people who are mad at me from a different site. The fact of the matter is that if I had never defended Nigam there would be no more arguing between myself and other posters than anyone else and other posters. I disagree with the majority about Nigam. I have the right to my opinion and free speech allows me to say my opinion about Nigam as much as anyone can say their opinion about Nigam. Since the arguing is mostly about Nigam why don't we all keep that in mind and try to focus on more productive issues. There is not one shred of evidence that anything i said got Dr. Gardner to leave. This accusation by Arishi is like so many of Arishi's unfounded statements, such as his statements that the trichogenicity issue was resolved and needhairasap is on the Pilox payroll. Arishi is full of it. Let's get back to our collective goal of finding a cure for hair loss. 
> 
> I'm thinking about getting adipose derived stem cell injections. Has anyone regrown hair using adipose derived stem cell injections?


 You say you are proactive, but tell me exactly what are you proactive in? Trolling numerous hairloss forums? Being hypocritical? Spamming threads about nonsense ideas involving scam doctors? Or is it simply being to ignorant and stubborn to understand the very treatments that you so vehemently support?

Choose any and all of the above, because that's all you seem to know how to do. You present biased incomplete evidence regarding AAPE and spread it as truth and a cure, and you make false accusations about other members. Don't you think it's any wonder you are in moderation Queue?

----------


## moleular

Hello again everyone.
Apologies for my hiatus, I've had some things to sort out.

I have actually in the intervening period had an ADSC procedure (in Austria) - it involves taking fat samples, they separate the stemcells and mix with PRP and then inject into your scalp. I can say that it has stopped the loss and has regrown hair. Results aren't that significant, but you have to get this done a few times before it's really noticeable. I would rather do this than have a hair transplant, as the idea of it doesn't sit well with me.

I recently posted to the crowd-funding forum but didn't follow up, as I had some things to sort out. As my crowd-funding initiative is intended on this topic though, I'll post here.

As some of you may have seen, a while ago I mentioned that I would organise for Fukuoka's research to be replicated, and I was trying to source a lab and put together a sort of 'package' to help people regrow their hair.
I have now sourced a lab in Europe, and would now like to appeal to the community for crowd-funding this venture.
I'm looking to raise approx. 50,000CHF (approx. $55,000).
This will pay for 4 test subjects to have lipo-aspirate (fat) extracted, have their cells cultured under hypoxic conditions and receive a series of injections with a partner clinic.

As some of you may know, this isn't quite the same as an ADSC procedure. ADSC involves actually using your stem cells and then injecting them into your scalp. This - which started this whole topic - is the use of the various growth factors secreted by culturing the stem cells, not using the cells themselves. Here in Europe, you can use the stem cells extracted, but only at the time of extraction. Stem cells can't be cultured and then used in procedures. However, it is perfectly legal to culture stem cells and use the growth factors they secrete in procedures - this is currently used for skin rejuvenation therapies.

The reason for culturing under hypoxic conditions - as Fukuoka noted - is that the stem cells secrete slightly elevated levels and a few more growth factors which are more conducive to growing hair. He also added some vitamins, such as zinc and biotin which we all know are good for hair growth.

So firstly, I would like to see whether people are interested and whether we could raise this money between us.
The first half or so of that money would go towards in vitro testing, and subsequently to application on some test subjects.
If results are satisfactory, then my intention is to put together a 'package' and work with partner clinics to provide a much better route for people to regrow their hair - hopefully without the need for hair transplants, but that isn't to say that it couldnt help these people too.

On that topic, it would probably be a good idea to have a test subject who has had a hair transplant so this could be tested both on the recipient and donor area to see the effects.

Thoughts are welcome, but please don't let it degrade into in-fighting and pseudo-scientific rubbish - we've all got a common goal here.

----------


## nameless

> You say you are proactive, but tell me exactly what are you proactive in? Trolling numerous hairloss forums? Being hypocritical? Spamming threads about nonsense ideas involving scam doctors? Or is it simply being to ignorant and stubborn to understand the very treatments that you so vehemently support?
> 
> Choose any and all of the above, because that's all you seem to know how to do. You present biased incomplete evidence regarding AAPE and spread it as truth and a cure, and you make false accusations about other members. Don't you think it's any wonder you are in moderation Queue?


 
What am I proactive in? I guess I've accomplished nothing whereas you on the other hand have cured hair loss! LOL!!

All you accomplish is arguing and bickering, which has risen to the level of trolling. You wreck threads and sites with your bickering and arguing. You accomplish squat. And it's apparent that you argue and bicker because you can't cope with baldness, you're angry about your baldness, and you want someone/something to gripe about so you can vent your inner baldness anger. 

You say nothing. If you stopped posting your absence would not delay an effective baldness treatment by one second. You add nothing of relevance to the discussion and all you do is bicker and argue while you hypocritically toss about bickering and arguing so you can release another drop of your pent-up anger over your baldness. All of your baseless attack posts against me amount to nothing more than you throwing a getting your panties in a bunch because you're upset about being bald.  Grow up.

----------


## nameless

Yesterday I spoke with the adipose derived stem cell clinic in The Bahamas. They only do adipose derived stem cells treatment for heart disease. Bahamian law only allows adipose derived stem cells for a few conditions, and one of them is heart disease. Hair loss is not one of them. He said hair loss could eventually be one of the conditions treated with adipose derived stem cells but that won't happen for years so we can rule out The Bahamas for adipose derived stem cells.

That aside, The man I talked to at the Bahamian clinic did tell me that their heart clinic uses PURE FRESH adipose derived stem cells for heart disease. He said that in USA all of the clinics are using something called SVF, which has some adipose derived stem cells in it but it also has quite a few other things in it. I would want PURE, or close to pure, adipose derived stem cells. He also said, and this is important, that there is evidence that adipose derived stem cells lose some potency during culture. He said this is one of the reasons his clinic only uses FRESH adipose derived stem cells. They isolate everything out of the harvest except the adipose derived stem cells and then inject them into the recipient area without any culture. Let me repeat - they say that culture diminishes the potency of the adipose derived stem cells. 

so far we have found 3 clinics that may offer pure adipose derived stem cells and they are in Austria, Switzerland, and China. It appears that the clinics in Switzerland and China culture PURE adipose derived stem cells so they can create a lot more and then they inject then into the recipient area. I think that the Austrian clinic may use only FRESH adipose derived stem cells, which means that they're ADSCs might be more potent than the adipose derived stem cells at the Swiss and Chinese clinics. 

I need more time to look into this research and see if it really matters if the adipose derived stem cells are fresh or cultured. Also, I'm trying to communicate with the Austrian, Chinese, and Swiss clinics to get information from them about whether they use cultured or fresh ADSCs. 

But one thing I believe is that if we were to decide to get adipose derived stem cells (fresh or cultured) I think if we were to do this as a group we could ask for a discount. I think we should try to see how many people might be interested in being a part of such a group. I think it could save us each a thousand dollars or more.

----------


## moleular

Nameless, please read carefully what I'm proposing before replying.
There are 2 things to note here;
1. I don't want alternatives, I have spent a lot of time researching this and I'm trying to gauge interest in this particular thing, nothing more, nothing less. I have already organised a lab and sent many emails back and forth coming to an agreement on research funding etc.
2. It NOT legal in Europe (or anywhere else in the world I believe) where you can culture stem cells and then use them in any kind of procedure, without first going through clinical trials.

What I am proposing is using the growth factors secreted by the stem cells, not the stem cells themselves - this is in line with the research which started this topic and the reason I am proposing funding for it, is that it requires no clinical trials. It is within current law.

Can I simply get a show of hands please as to who is interested? Maybe I would be better starting a new topic from the main cutting edge treatments category.

----------


## hellouser

> Nameless, please read carefully what I'm proposing before replying.
> There are 2 things to note here;
> 1. I don't want alternatives, I have spent a lot of time researching this and I'm trying to gauge interest in this particular thing, nothing more, nothing less. I have already organised a lab and sent many emails back and forth coming to an agreement on research funding etc.
> 2. It NOT legal in Europe (or anywhere else in the world I believe) where you can culture stem cells and then use them in any kind of procedure, without first going through clinical trials.
> 
> What I am proposing is using the growth factors secreted by the stem cells, not the stem cells themselves - this is in line with the research which started this topic and the reason I am proposing funding for it, is that it requires no clinical trials. It is within current law.
> 
> *Can I simply get a show of hands please as to who is interested?* Maybe I would be better starting a new topic from the main cutting edge treatments category.


 I'm listening. Would like to hear from Desmond on this.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I'm looking to raise approx. 50,000CHF (approx. $55,000).


 You may want to consult a lawyer before making a general solicitation like this... or at least disclaim that you aren't selling equity and that this is a donation based crowdfunding attempt...

General solicitation" or "general advertising" are undefined in the statutes or rules. Instead, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) takes a case by case approach. Rule 502(c) prohibits:

any advertisement, article, notice or other communication published in any newspaper, magazine, or similar media or broadcast over television and radio; and

any seminar or meeting whose attendees have been invited by any general solicitation or general advertising."

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Nameless, please read carefully what I'm proposing before replying.
> There are 2 things to note here;
> 1. I don't want alternatives, I have spent a lot of time researching this and I'm trying to gauge interest in this particular thing, nothing more, nothing less. I have already organised a lab and sent many emails back and forth coming to an agreement on research funding etc.
> 2. It NOT legal in Europe (or anywhere else in the world I believe) where you can culture stem cells and then use them in any kind of procedure, without first going through clinical trials.
> 
> What I am proposing is using the growth factors secreted by the stem cells, not the stem cells themselves - this is in line with the research which started this topic and the reason I am proposing funding for it, is that it requires no clinical trials. It is within current law.
> 
> Can I simply get a show of hands please as to who is interested? Maybe I would be better starting a new topic from the main cutting edge treatments category.


 Sounds like an interesting and useful study.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## nameless

> Nameless, please read carefully what I'm proposing before replying.
> There are 2 things to note here;
> 1. I don't want alternatives, I have spent a lot of time researching this and I'm trying to gauge interest in this particular thing, nothing more, nothing less. I have already organised a lab and sent many emails back and forth coming to an agreement on research funding etc.
> 2. It NOT legal in Europe (or anywhere else in the world I believe) where you can culture stem cells and then use them in any kind of procedure, without first going through clinical trials.
> 
> What I am proposing is using the growth factors secreted by the stem cells, not the stem cells themselves - this is in line with the research which started this topic and the reason I am proposing funding for it, is that it requires no clinical trials. It is within current law.
> 
> Can I simply get a show of hands please as to who is interested? Maybe I would be better starting a new topic from the main cutting edge treatments category.


 
I also suggested here the idea that we organize and form a clinic that would sell us AAPE treatments. You would not believe how much I was bashed here for suggesting this. 

That aside, I think that setting up a clinic for these growth factors is a good and a bad idea. Let me explain the good and the bad.

*The good*: Studies have shown that these growth factors grow hair. The growth factors injected as a liquid would go all throughout the follicles soaking all the key parts of the follicles.

*The bad*: You would have to do numerous repeat injections because when the cells sent these same growth factors to the follicles they do so continuously so you would have to get the injections frequently in the beginning at least. 


If you inject the cells instead then the cells would be continuously sending these same growth factors to the follicles since the cells would stay in the body. So you may need repeat injections with the cells too but you would probably not need as many repeat injections if you used the cells as you would if you use the growth factors from the cells. On the other hand, with the cells there is the issue that if they're injected they may be too large to get into some of the places they need to get to in order to do the job whereas the liquid growth factor solution could splash all throughout the follicles much better. 

There are advantages and disadvantages to using the cells or the growth factors from the cells. I need time to think all of this through but I am definitely interested in what you're proposing.

----------


## Arashi

> There is not one shred of evidence that anything i said got Dr. Gardner to leave.


 Well, what do you expect, you kept stalking the professor with your totally uninteresting, pages long questions. You really expected him to keep answering those ? Most of the times you asked stuff that was asked before or he couldnt possibly know. And then you started telling HIM how to do his work, that was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. A guy who doesnt understand most of the stuff he reads, telling one of the smartest professors in the industry how to do his job ! And you expected him to enjoy all that ? I warned you he'd stop posting if you'd continue but you just kept spamming him with pages long irrelevant questions. 




> This accusation by Arishi is like so many of Arishi's unfounded statements, such as his statements that the trichogenicity issue was resolved


 You keep saying that and I keep saying: show me where I said that

----------


## Haircure

> Well, what do you expect, you kept stalking the professor with your totally uninteresting, pages long questions. You really expected him to keep answering those ? Most of the times you asked stuff that was asked before or he couldnt possibly know. And then you started telling HIM how to do his work, that was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. A guy who doesnt understand most of the stuff he reads, telling one of the smartest professors in the industry how to do his job ! And you expected him to enjoy all that ? I warned you he'd stop posting if you'd continue but you just kept spamming him with pages long irrelevant questions. 
> 
> 
> You keep saying that and I keep saying: show me where I said that


 Is there anyway to get rid of this guy from the forum? I mean it's just getting real sad now, the guy obviously is externalizing his own problem to others and may very well ruin the opportunity of another guest like Dr. Gardner with his useless irrelevantly long posts. I mean this guy got kicked from so many forums already it's a wonder he's still in this one.

----------


## nameless

> Well, what do you expect, you kept stalking the professor with your totally uninteresting, pages long questions. You really expected him to keep answering those ? Most of the times you asked stuff that was asked before or he couldnt possibly know. And then you started telling HIM how to do his work, that was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. A guy who doesnt understand most of the stuff he reads, telling one of the smartest professors in the industry how to do his job ! And you expected him to enjoy all that ? I warned you he'd stop posting if you'd continue but you just kept spamming him with pages long irrelevant questions. 
> 
> 
> You keep saying that and I keep saying: show me where I said that


 I already showed you where you foolishly stated that researchers solved the  trichogenicity problem. After I posted a copy of what you said you then went on and denied it anyway. So even if the truth is put right in front of you, you still deny it. No matter how everyone feels about you or I, the fact remains that most everyone here knows you were jawing about how they solved the trichogenicity issue. You even started one of your baseless gripes at me over it. And of course I turned out to be correct. 

That aside, you still have not posted one shred of evidence that Dr. Gardner left because of me. You have made the baseless claim to that effect but you have not proved it. That's you Arishi. It's like your silly baseless allegation that needhairasap is in cahoots with the Pilox promoters. You just blab and make baseless allegations is all.

----------


## nameless

> Is there anyway to get rid of this guy from the forum? I mean it's just getting real sad now, the guy obviously is externalizing his own problem to others and may very well ruin the opportunity of another guest like Dr. Gardner with his useless irrelevantly long posts. I mean this guy got kicked from so many forums already it's a wonder he's still in this one.


 I have thought about it and I've decided that it's pretty clear you and Arishi are the ones who scared Dr. Gardner off actually. 

And I'm not kicked from any forums and your allegation to the contrary is yet another mistake by you. 

Why don't you just stop talking to me? You whine like a girl about me but then you talk to me.. 
Let me show you how a big boy does it. I'm going to stop talking to you here and now.

----------


## nameless

> I'm listening. Would like to hear from Desmond on this.


 I would also like to know what Desmond thinks about this. It would be good if Desmond would consider getting involved in the project. The project could lead to AAPE being made available at some clinics without Dr. Nigam being involved.

----------


## Arashi

> I already showed you where you foolishly stated that researchers solved the  trichogenicity problem. After I posted a copy of what you said you then went on and denied it anyway.


 Were did you do that ? You showed me nothing like that. You know as well as anyone here that you're lying.




> That aside, you still have not posted one shred of evidence that Dr. Gardner left because of me. You have made the baseless claim to that effect but you have not proved it.


 Dr Aaron Gardner came her for one reason and that was that he enjoyed it. Then you started bombarding him with pages full of silly questions and even worse, you started to tell him how to do his work !! I warned you he'd stop coming here (like any normal person would) but you just kept doing it and even stepped on it, posting like 3-4 questions in a row. And all of them were crazy LONG chunks of text, silly, stupid, non-relevant and/or either asked before. You really think anyone would enjoy answering that ?




> t's like your silly baseless allegation that needhairasap is in cahoots with the Pilox promoters


 If that's not true, then why does he post the wrong pictures ? He has the latest ones, yet he shows us older pictures with big hair length difference. What other explanation could there possibly be ? I asked you that before, you didnt answer. This guy has been pumping this product since day one, he's manipulating with pictures and lying. That's something I've only seen Ironman doing, but he's like an extreme fanboy. Needhairasap doesnt strike me like such extreme fanboy, so what other explanation could there possibly be that he's somehow commercially involved with Pilox ?

----------


## nameless

> Were did you do that ? You showed me nothing like that. You know as well as anyone here that you're lying.
> 
> 
> Dr Aaron Gardner came her for one reason and that was that he enjoyed it. Then you started bombarding him with pages full of silly questions and even worse, you started to tell him how to do his work !! I warned you he'd stop coming here (like any normal person would) but you just kept doing it and even stepped on it, posting like 3-4 questions in a row. And all of them were crazy LONG chunks of text, silly, stupid, non-relevant and/or either asked before. You really think anyone enjoys that ?
> 
> 
> If that's not true, then why does he post the wrong pictures ? He has the latest ones, yet he shows us older pictures with big hair length difference. What other explanation could there possibly be ? This guy has been pumping this product since day one, he's manipulating with pictures and lying. That's something I've only seen Ironman doing, but he's like an extreme fanboy. Needhairasap doest strike me like such extreme fanboy, so what other explanation could there possibly be that he's somehow commercially involved with Pilox ?


 I'm done talking to you too Arishi. All you wanna do is whine, bicker, and make baseless allegations. 

The information in this thread is probably the best chance we have to get a treatment early. Between adipose cells, AAPE, and possibly even SVF, there may actually already be a cure available on the planet, or could be aailable available VERY soon. But all you want to do is bicker, argue, and wreck the thread. You need to grow up. I'm going to stop talking to you. You can make all of the baseless accusations you want but I'm not going to respond. And I'm not going to explain to you why needhairasap is not guilty of working with Pilox because the point is that you pulled that allegation out of thin air. You made it up. That allegation is just more of your sh!t talk. Goodbye.

----------


## moleular

Hi again everyone,

Firstly, please can we stop the in-fighting, it's really counter-productive and I would like to get this organised sooner rather than later, as I have a small window in which to gauge interest and get back to the MD of the lab which I have sourced.
This isn't just a post on a whim, I am serious about this. I have set up the various contacts and as of october I potentially have much more time on my hands to make sure this goes ahead.

Needhairasap - I take your advice and I would like to make it clear that this is a donations based community effort, and I am in no way advertising or selling equity in a specific venture.

Nameless - I agree that this would take a few injections. This is noted in Fukuoka's research aswell. If the funding stretches to it, It might be a good idea to get twice the amount of lipo-aspirate taken at the time of the procedure; one portion used for direct injection and the other sent to the labs to be cultured. I think it would work best as a complimentary procedure.

Now, as for the next step, I need to register the interest of people in a central location and ascertain how much people are willing to contribute. This won't be to take any money initially, just simply to get the numbers and get people onto a mailing list. I will probably use an established donations service when it comes to it.
I work in the IT industry so I can get a basic form built on a site, but there may be free things out there for doing the same - suggestions welcome.

----------


## Alias123

Nice initiativ Moleur, some questions:
1. what would be the major difference between the one you propose of setting up and the ones existing in vienna and switzerland?
2. if you manage to get the funds ( i could contribute if the right legal documents/ contracts are made) what would be the charge for each proceedure? 
3. since i already did one treatment, and by the time you have it all set up (if you do) how would the treatment affect me differently? (kind of goes togheter with question 1)

----------


## Arashi

> I'm done talking to you too Arishi. All you wanna do is whine, bicker, and make baseless allegations. 
> 
> The information in this thread is probably the best chance we have to get a treatment early. Between adipose cells, AAPE, and possibly even SVF, there may actually already be a cure available on the planet, or could be aailable available VERY soon. But all you want to do is bicker, argue, and wreck the thread. You need to grow up. I'm going to stop talking to you. You can make all of the baseless accusations you want but I'm not going to respond. And I'm not going to explain to you why needhairasap is not guilty of working with Pilox because the point is that you pulled that allegation out of thin air. You made it up. That allegation is just more of your sh!t talk. Goodbye.


 LOL, so you make all kinds of allegations, you don't want to explain why nor do you want to back them up with any evidence and then you accuse ME of making baseless accusations ? You're kidding, right ?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf
> 
> check it out really amazing results are show. it also mention the procedure can be done with current technology. several sessions are required. trichoscan showed 83&#37; increase in hairs (see figure.7 before treatment 29 hairs in the area and after 53. (53-29)/29 = 83%). full head pictures are also available.figure.3 shows a male without fin and figure 4 shows another on fin, but I doubt that fin would make that difference in 6 months.  sad it is not approved by the FDA. but why ? it is similar to ACell + prp. it is like histogen on steroids. any how check it out. there are clinics doing research on other treatment adipose-derived stem cell without the protein extract thing. http://www.stemcellrevolution.com/cu...r-restoration/


 Looks promising.  It's good to see real photos taken from the same spot.  Therapy with growth factors makes complete sense when you think about it.  In my early teens, before I grew a beard, a thick fatty layer (adipose) developed on my chin.  As my hair loss developed, the miniaturized areas of scalp lost a great deal of the fatty layer I had as a kid.  You can tell just by pressing down on your own scalp and comparing the feel of the balding areas with the more permanent areas.  One method of treatment is to reintroduce the adipose-derived growth factors.  Another approach would be one of halting the process that causes a diminished fatty layer in the first place.  I have noticed, working here at Dr. Cole's office and meeting every patient that comes through the door for years, that the hard core Propecia and Avodart users have a better fatty layer under their areas of scalp that would otherwise be balding.  A treatment needs to be developed that doesn't require constant injections into the scalp or hormone altering drugs.  Related to injection therapy, repeated injury to tissue over the years can lead to skin cancer. 

*Ultimately gene therapy would be ideal:*
Every year, millions are born with debilitating genetic disorders, a result of inheriting just one faulty gene from their parents.  Scientists are developing ways of editing genetic errors and reversing the course of many hard-to-treat diseases. These type of gene therapies exploit the abilities of viruses  biological machines that excel in penetrating cells and importing genes. By removing their ability to reproduce, and loading them with the genes of our choice, we can transform viruses from causes of disease into agents of cure.

*Successes include:*
Thirteen children with SCID, an immune disorder that leaves people fatally vulnerable to infections, now have working immune systems.  Several British patients with haemophilia, which prevents their blood from clotting properly, can now produce a clotting protein known as factor IX, *which they once had to inject*. A British man and three Americans with inherited forms of progressive blindness can see again.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hellouser

> http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf
> 
> check it out really amazing results are show. it also mention the procedure can be done with current technology. several sessions are required. trichoscan showed 83&#37; increase in hairs (see figure.7 before treatment 29 hairs in the area and after 53. (53-29)/29 = 83%). full head pictures are also available.figure.3 shows a male without fin and figure 4 shows another on fin, but I doubt that fin would make that difference in 6 months.  sad it is not approved by the FDA. but why ? it is similar to ACell + prp. it is like histogen on steroids. any how check it out. there are clinics doing research on other treatment adipose-derived stem cell without the protein extract thing. http://www.stemcellrevolution.com/cu...r-restoration/


 What's the cost for the procedure?

----------


## nameless

> Hi again everyone,
> 
> Firstly, please can we stop the in-fighting, it's really counter-productive and I would like to get this organised sooner rather than later, as I have a small window in which to gauge interest and get back to the MD of the lab which I have sourced.
> This isn't just a post on a whim, I am serious about this. I have set up the various contacts and as of october I potentially have much more time on my hands to make sure this goes ahead.
> 
> Needhairasap - I take your advice and I would like to make it clear that this is a donations based community effort, and I am in no way advertising or selling equity in a specific venture.
> 
> Nameless - I agree that this would take a few injections. This is noted in Fukuoka's research aswell. If the funding stretches to it, It might be a good idea to get twice the amount of lipo-aspirate taken at the time of the procedure; one portion used for direct injection and the other sent to the labs to be cultured. I think it would work best as a complimentary procedure.
> 
> ...


 moleular, it's great that you've found a lab and clinic because that is what we need in order to start dispensing AAPE but I don't understand why there has to be a study. It seems to me that requiring a study presents a challenge because it means we have to raise $50,000. If the lab/clinic would instead just start dispensing the treatment we wouldn't have to come up with anything to get treatments started. Why is the 4-man study necessary in order to get started?

----------


## hgs1989

> What's the cost for the procedure?


 I don't know. someone posted on this thread a link where you can buy 5 vials for 1000$.

----------


## hellouser

> I don't know. someone posted on this thread a link where you can buy 5 vials for 1000$.


 That's cheap as hell. Just get an insulin needle and youre SET.

----------


## nameless

> I don't know. someone posted on this thread a link where you can buy 5 vials for 1000$.


 
I don't know if I would trust those vials. Has anyone tried it? I think Swooping said that these growth factors have to be stored a specific way and can not sit for very long. Dr. Gardner also said that they're unstable. I think that these growth factors have to processed and used in specific ways or they lose their potency.

----------


## moleular

35yrsafter, hellouser & hgs1989

I do wonder whether sometimes these forums never manage to get anywhere, because the original thread which starts the topic gets lost in pages and pages of crap.
This is exactly the thing I'm talking about, this is the same pdf which kicked off this topic (Fukuoka's research), and it is this which I am trying to crowd-fund. The procedure currently isn't available.
The vials you make reference to hgs1989 are available from some spurious looking site. As far as I can ascertain, it seems that they were pushing the AAPE product from Korea.
I mailed the owner and after one poor reply, heard nothing else.

What I'm trying to do here is crowd fund this research - the culturing of stem cells under hypoxic conditions to produce various growth factors - to double check the research of Fukuoka and form it into a viable procedure.
As I have mentioned already, I have a lab organised and partner clinics. What I'd like now is to gauge some interest. I'll set this up as a new thread from the main cutting edge / future treatments and link to a form where people can register their interest and give an idea of how much they could donate.
Maybe someone could give me an idea of how Desmonds trip to Korea was funded so that I could follow the same methods?

----------


## sascha

> 35yrsafter, hellouser & hgs1989
> 
> I do wonder whether sometimes these forums never manage to get anywhere, because the original thread which starts the topic gets lost in pages and pages of crap.
> This is exactly the thing I'm talking about, this is the same pdf which kicked off this topic (Fukuoka's research), and it is this which I am trying to crowd-fund. The procedure currently isn't available.
> The vials you make reference to hgs1989 are available from some spurious looking site. As far as I can ascertain, it seems that they were pushing the AAPE product from Korea.
> I mailed the owner and after one poor reply, heard nothing else.
> 
> What I'm trying to do here is crowd fund this research - the culturing of stem cells under hypoxic conditions to produce various growth factors - to double check the research of Fukuoka and form it into a viable procedure.
> As I have mentioned already, I have a lab organised and partner clinics. What I'd like now is to gauge some interest. I'll set this up as a new thread from the main cutting edge / future treatments and link to a form where people can register their interest and give an idea of how much they could donate.
> Maybe someone could give me an idea of how Desmonds trip to Korea was funded so that I could follow the same methods?


 Hello. Desmond simply set up a PayPal account, as far as I know, and all members had the possibility to donate money, some would give more, some would give less, some would not donate.
And if I am allowed to say something regarding your theory that the off-track posts keep this forum from success: I personally do not think so, because this is just a plattform for us to exchange information, which is far from constant. Lets look at this time period right now. Nothing gets released, ergo, nobody posts something. As soon as there are good news or possibilities, like sending Desmond to WCHR 2014, everybody is on board. If by now nobody showed interest in your idea, I personally do not think this is going to change very rapidly.
I am very convinced that I won't take long until Replicel releases in Jaoan. Their tweets and releases indicate something exciting. Cheers

----------


## hgs1989

> What I'm trying to do here is crowd fund this research - the culturing of stem cells under hypoxic conditions to produce various growth factors - to double check the research of Fukuoka and form it into a viable procedure.
> As I have mentioned already, I have a lab organised and partner clinics. What I'd like now is to gauge some interest. I'll set this up as a new thread from the main cutting edge / future treatments and link to a form where people can register their interest and give an idea of how much they could donate.
> Maybe someone could give me an idea of how Desmonds trip to Korea was funded so that I could follow the same methods?


  you don't need to double check any thing. culturing cells and take the proteins has been done and many cosmetic products that we have today conatin growth factors. it is the FDA approval of meso injections of these growth factors is what we need and what histogen is trying to achieve. I made a mistake before that I thought that culturing fibroblasts is different than cutlring adepocyte cells, apparently it is the same. we don't need to double check any thing. a ****tail of (bfgf, kgf,  folistatin, thymosin beta 4, wnts, vegf, hgf, ctgf and igf1) will do great for hair loss sufferers and it is already researched. these growth factors are also in many cosmetic products. getting them to the dermis without injections is a tough task. iposomal delivery is one way. dermaheal has allsorts of GF in their products with liposome. but injections is the way to go with GFs not topicals.

----------


## moleular

hgs1989, what I'm trying to say is that this is already being done in Europe for skin rejuvenation therapies, using the growth factors derived from cultured stem cells - and by that i mean injections. Not at any point did I talk about topicals.
I used the wrong term when I said double check. What I'm trying to do is get a lab which I have been in contact with, to invest in hypoxic culturing. I've been in contact with a number of labs, and none of them were immediately familiar with, or currently doing hypoxic culturing.
It is this which I'm trying to set up, so the lab can do the necessary tests and I can provide the treatment to select number of volunteers, to ultimately prove to the community that it works and is possible under current confines of the law - at least in Europe.

----------


## nameless

> 35yrsafter, hellouser & hgs1989
> 
> I do wonder whether sometimes these forums never manage to get anywhere, because the original thread which starts the topic gets lost in pages and pages of crap.
> This is exactly the thing I'm talking about, this is the same pdf which kicked off this topic (Fukuoka's research), and it is this which I am trying to crowd-fund. The procedure currently isn't available.
> The vials you make reference to hgs1989 are available from some spurious looking site. As far as I can ascertain, it seems that they were pushing the AAPE product from Korea.
> I mailed the owner and after one poor reply, heard nothing else.
> 
> What I'm trying to do here is crowd fund this research - the culturing of stem cells under hypoxic conditions to produce various growth factors - to double check the research of Fukuoka and form it into a viable procedure.
> As I have mentioned already, I have a lab organised and partner clinics. What I'd like now is to gauge some interest. I'll set this up as a new thread from the main cutting edge / future treatments and link to a form where people can register their interest and give an idea of how much they could donate.
> Maybe someone could give me an idea of how Desmonds trip to Korea was funded so that I could follow the same methods?


 I don't trust those vials anymore than you do moleular. Assuming they're legit there is still the problem that growth factors have to be stored and transported in very specific ways or else they lose potency. I would be highly skeptical of those vials. That having been said, I still  can't figure out why a 4-man study needs to be done before the lab/clinic you found would start dispensing the treatment. There are at least 2 studies already done on humans using AAPE. I don't see where some small 4-man study would make a big difference to the body of knowledge already known about AAPE treatment. By requiring a 4-man study using AAPE all we are accomplishing is to cause a needless delay because it will take time to raise the money and then the study would have to be done. The two studies that were already done involved more subjects than just 4 subjects so we already have the results of two larger studies than the study you are proposing. 

And then there's the issue that the highly credible and respected Yale University already assured everyone that the growth factors/proteins which comes from adipose derived stem cells are not only the signals that prompt the follicles to grow hair, but they are also the ONLY THING required to get follicles to grow hair. And the growth factors/proteins in AAPE are the the growth factors/proteins that Yale University was referring to. 

If we waste time doing a 4-man study it would just be a time-wasting formality IMHO.

----------


## Armandein

ASCs are activated using specialized laser light.
Is it neccesary? what abouy specialized laser light?

----------


## nameless

> hgs1989, what I'm trying to say is that this is already being done in Europe for skin rejuvenation therapies, using the growth factors derived from cultured stem cells - and by that i mean injections. Not at any point did I talk about topicals.
> I used the wrong term when I said double check. What I'm trying to do is get a lab which I have been in contact with, to invest in hypoxic culturing. I've been in contact with a number of labs, and none of them were immediately familiar with, or currently doing hypoxic culturing.
> It is this which I'm trying to set up, so the lab can do the necessary tests and I can provide the treatment to select number of volunteers, to ultimately prove to the community that it works and is possible under current confines of the law - at least in Europe.


 
First of all let me say that I greatly appreciate what you are doing. You are taking this way further than I was capable of getting it, and I'm grateful.

But still raising $50,000 would cause a delay and it does not seem necessary because we don't need a lab to do hypoxic culturing. The Korean company can do it and apparently the Korean company will do it. The Korean company did it for the scientists who conducted the study so the Korean company should be willing to do it for the clinic that you work with.

----------


## hgs1989

> hgs1989, what I'm trying to say is that this is already being done in Europe for skin rejuvenation therapies, using the growth factors derived from cultured stem cells - and by that i mean injections. Not at any point did I talk about topicals.
> I used the wrong term when I said double check. What I'm trying to do is get a lab which I have been in contact with, to invest in hypoxic culturing. I've been in contact with a number of labs, and none of them were immediately familiar with, or currently doing hypoxic culturing.
> It is this which I'm trying to set up, so the lab can do the necessary tests and I can provide the treatment to select number of volunteers, to ultimately prove to the community that it works and is possible under current confines of the law - at least in Europe.


 dude we don't need to prove it works. we simply know it does. the amount of studies of what growth factors can do to hair loss is huge. on mice and cultured human cells. the people who are not interested might be NW6 or NW7 and not much can be done with GF. something different need to be done to activate resting hair follicle stem cells in completely bald zones. histogen showed us that the extract works. multiple treatments can give great results for men. we have seen great results on women but men are affected more by dht. dermaheal in the us has multiple products based on GFs but we can not inject them in the US. they say use it as a topical and use derma rolling to enhance delivery and they have a topical with liposme delivery. I am starting to use the topical and will use their stem c rum (it conatins various GFs and conditioned media extract) with derma stamping. I don't expect much because it is not being injected but i will see how it goes. we can buy pure from lab suppliers but it is un advisable because we can end up using too much which can be more harm than good.  I don't know why do you think that we need a lab or any thing . you can buy them online from lab suppliers purely and they are expensive and we can not handle them properly at home and we can end up using too much. a specialized studied product is more appealing at least to me. that why i wanna try AAPE but unfortunately I can't.

----------


## zeos

> dermaheal in the us has multiple products based on GFs but we can not inject them in the US.


 i don't understand this,dermaheal has already vials available for mesotherapy,it clearly states :Injected by syringe, meso gun or treated by micro-needle roller,
so what is the problem?
http://integratedskincare.net/files/63390656.pdf

----------


## nameless

Moleular, just schmooze the lab and clinic that you're emailing. Let them know that they don't need to test culturing cells in hypoxic conditions because the Korean company will do that for them. The lab you're working with would lipo some fat cells from the person, send them to the Korean company, and the Korean company would culture them in hypoxic conditions and harvest the AAPE for the lab and the clinic. 

This is not a big deal. If you have a lab and clinic interested then nothing else needs to be done except for the lab and clinic to start talking with the Korean company. 

If you get the AAPE from the Korean then you will be getting the exact same AAPE that's in the studies and it works. And as I already said, the 4-man study you are suggesting would not add anything relevant to the body of knowledge already accumulated because the two studies already done using AAPE involved a larger number of subjects. Some small 4-man study is not going to add meaningful information that the larger studies have not already demonstrated.

----------


## hgs1989

> i don't understand this,dermaheal has already vials available for mesotherapy,it clearly states :Injected by syringe, meso gun or treated by micro-needle roller,
> so what is the problem?
> http://integratedskincare.net/files/63390656.pdf


 any form of mesotherapy needs FDA approval. no doctor will inject it. I actually don't have high hopes for it. I don't question the legitimacy of the product ingredients is but the concentration might be low.

----------


## moleular

To all who have commented on this;

The money is needed to do 2 things; prove to those who run clinics that this is possible and works, and equip the lab for hypoxic culturing.

The reason for not simply getting the AAPE product from Korea is also twofold;
1. The company is completely unreachable - I have tried
2. European law wouldn't allow for the import of unverified growth factors to be injected - this is where you would need to apply for medical approval.

By equipping a lab and using ones own stem cells, there are no legal formalities to go through for injection. The growth factors which have been cultured are effectively yours, so 'permission' as it were isn't needed in order for a medical professional to administer them.
Whilst many think that 'certain companies are doing x, so surely everyone knows about this stuff', it simply isn't the case.

It's not about proving that this works to the community, we obviously know that it works, it's about making those who are capable of administering it (as a proper procedure which people are comfortable receiving) aware of the research and willing to get involved in using it as a therapy.
And I don't know whether you are aware, but what I am talking about is AAPE. This is just a moniker which the korean company have applied to it, but it's the same as the research carried out by Fukuoka, and that which I am trying to community behind to fund.
Secondly, the growth factors which you can buy from research companies are not safe to be injecting into your scalp and applying them topically is certainly a waste of time - whilst their molecular weight may be small enough, they won't have the desired effect. Research has found in certain instances that DMSO will allow certain growth factors to penetrate the skin, but as has been found out by experimenters on here - DMSO is a nasty substance and can cause more hair to fall out than it will grow.

And finally, to all the naysayers or those who would rather throw all obstacles possible in the way, look at it like this;

If all you had to give was say $25-50 to allow me to get this up and running, and you are proven right, then what have you lost? $25?
That isn't much to lose and equally not very much to try and get something potentially worthwhile off the ground, which has no barriers to market.

Yes there are new treatments on the horizon, and yes they make all the right noises in terms of being 'just around the corner'. They have PR teams designed to make it seem this way, because they're businesses at the end of the day, and they need to raise capital.
If you think though that Histogen or Replicel will be out within 2 years though, you're very much mistaken.

----------


## Haircure

You say that we know it works, but again what is it's effectiveness? I've seen one article and it only provided a few very low quality pictures showing some possible growth and the results were given via a subjective opinion by the patients using the VAS. 

If there are anymore articles which show how effective AAPE is , I would be interested in reading it, because to me the biggest issue is not just if AAPE works or not, but how effective it is, and if it is worth it.

----------


## zeos

> any form of mesotherapy needs FDA approval. no doctor will inject it. I actually don't have high hopes for it. I don't question the legitimacy of the product ingredients is but the concentration might be low.


 maybe you should contact or call dermaheal,i'm sure they will give you addresses with professionals in the United States where you can inject this stuff
if there is no FDA approval how can they advertise it then?
http://www.aveyou.com/dermahealstemc...olution-1.aspx  (directions for use)

it seems this treatment is widespread in many different european countries
but I'm a little bit confused watching this video(check minute 1:21)
http://dermagenica.co.uk/dermaheal-hl/
what does it mean?
does this treatment also play with your hormones like finasteride?

----------


## hgs1989

> You say that we know it works, but again what is it's effectiveness? I've seen one article and it only provided a few very low quality pictures showing some possible growth and the results were given via a subjective opinion by the patients using the VAS. 
> 
> If there are anymore articles which show how effective AAPE is , I would be interested in reading it, because to me the biggest issue is not just if AAPE works or not, but how effective it is, and if it is worth it.


  I think you are directing this to me, am I right? any how AAPE in the form of the product I posted about might be a scam. I don't know. I am only praising using Growth factors whether it comes from E.coli and /or culturing human cells. lots of studies showed that in mice in cultured human DP cells. histogen showed that they work. and if AAPE or dermaheal products are legit and well studied to optimize the concentration and dosing then we have a product that works. scientists should stop worrying and use GF and stem cells in humans not only for hair but for other stuff too. the faster the better. this technology needs to be moved from the lab to become commercially available as fast as possible. search the web yourself put the list of GFs (one by one) and hair growth see for yourself. dht is a mere signaling hormone that makes the follicle on the scalp release TGF beta and dkk1 and die while dht makes our beard follicles release  IGF-1, HGF, KGF to grow. other proteins might be involved.we simply know what the mechanism of balding is on a molecular level. we just don't know why this happens in response to DHT. what is the difference between balding and non balding areas, Cotseralis proposed PGD2 but this is yet to be determined.
take a look at WCHR 2013 abstracts many of them are about using GFs for MPB.
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1...d2013110a.html

----------


## zeos

> it seems this treatment is widespread in many different european countries
> but I'm a little bit confused watching this video(check minute 1:21)
> http://dermagenica.co.uk/dermaheal-hl/
> what does it mean?
> does this treatment also play with your hormones like finasteride?


 
also here:http://www.freedomhealthskin.co.uk/s...loss-dermaheal
''The process works by :

*Nanopeptides inactivate +5 alpha reductases which inhibits the conversion of testosterone to DHT and delays the process from Anagen to Categen  - Anti Hair Loss.*

The other peptides within the solution CG-Bfgf, CG-VEGF, CG-TGF-a, CG-KGF, CG-HGF are used to promote the process from Telogen to Anagen thus forming new hair. ''

well that sucks

----------


## nameless

Moleular, if the fundraising is set-up in such a way that people who donate would get their money back if the required amount was not received or if anything did not work out, and if it was set-up correctly with no chance of any misappropriation of funds, then I will commit $100.  

You would have to use a legitimate crowd-funding site with all the legalities and with complete financial protection for the people who donate. If you can accomplish this I would donate $100 because it's a small amount of money to put up for a possible chance to get my hair back.

----------


## nameless

I would say to everyone what is the harm of investing a little money to try to get this going?  

Let me tell everyone that I am in communication with the adipose stem cell clinic and I've raised the issue of them giving a discount if a group of us will undergo the treatment. Give me some time to work on this and while we are waiting for some answers what is the harm of investing a little money into moleular's plan as long as his plan is set-up in a totally legitimate manner, there's no chance of being ripped off, and if for any reason the project does not take place then the people who donated money would get their money back? 

Look, if adipose derived stem cells work then we can do that instead, but there's not much risk if we invest a little bit of money to get a second potential treatment, AAPE, also moving forward. We are lucky that the lab and clinic he's talking to only needs $50,000 because that means we need 500 people who will donate $100 each or 1,000 people who will donate $50 each. I will donate $100 if the funding is set-up in an iron-clad fundraising system that does not allow any chance for cheating. Let me put it to you like this - I do think that injecting adipose derived stem cells themselves will help us but I also think that injecting AAPE could improve on the results or even work in some cases where the adipose stem cells themselves produced little or no improvement. My reason for this is that by injecting the cells themselves the cells would secrete these important growth factors in and around the follicles in somewhat limited quantities, but with the AAPE we could bomb the follicles with the growth factors and proteins. I just think that now that we know that there are a few clinics out there marketing adipose derived stem cells for hair loss it still could be helpful to also bring AAPE into the marketplace. 

$50 to $100 is not a lot of money if we can be sure that the effort is totally legitimate and if we will definitely be refunded if for any reason the lab and clinic do not do the work and the testing. I would want total transparency and total certainty that work is done or we get our money back. 

And as I have already said, please please let me do the talking to the adipose stem cell clinics because I'm trying to get us a discount for group rates. If the clinic finds out that many of us are already are highly interested then they might refuse to give a discount because they will figure that we will be their customers whether they give a discount or not. I want them to give a discount for a group and to accomplish this it would be best if they realized we are trying to form a group rather than have them believe that a number of us are ready to be customers as individuals. Please give me a chance to get us a discount. Why pay full price if you don't have to?

----------


## Alias123

Soon booking my second treatment with ddr heinrich at the vienna clinic, havent seen any results yet though its only been 1 month and results on website says  New hair growth occurs ca. 8 to 12 weeks after the first treatment at the earliest. The treatment is not suitable for complete baldness. what do you say about this? should i invest in a second treatment?
http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments...rowth-factors/

----------


## nameless

> Soon booking my second treatment with ddr heinrich at the vienna clinic, havent seen any results yet though its only been 1 month and results on website says  New hair growth occurs ca. 8 to 12 weeks after the first treatment at the earliest. The treatment is not suitable for complete baldness. what do you say about this? should i invest in a second treatment?
> http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments...rowth-factors/


 I thought you were getting adipose derived stem cell injections. The link you provided is not to adipose derived stem cells. It's to some kind of growth factors.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

sounds like PRP

whats the difference between this and the stuff they were offering in south america?

----------


## nameless

> sounds like PRP
> 
> whats the difference between this and the stuff they were offering in south america?


 This is confusing. 

First Alias said he was getting adipose derived stem cells injected but now he's saying that he's getting some kind of growth factors injected. 

This change reduces my confidence in the treatment because it looks like they told him he was going to receive adipose derived stem cells but now he's getting some kind of growth factor treatment instead. 

It looks like the treatment he got is similar to PRP so nothing to get excited about.

----------


## nameless

Alias I thought you were going to get this treatment:

http://stemcelltherapy.cc/stem-cell-...n-hair-tissue/

But it looks like you got this other treatment instead:

http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments...rowth-factors/

In your past posts you talk about both of the above treatments. They are different treatments. One treatment uses adipose derived stem cells and the other treatment uses growth factors. Since you have talked about both of these two treatments I don't know which treatment you got. Did you get the adipose derived stem cell treatment or did you get the growth factor treatment?

----------


## Alias123

http://stemcelltherapy.cc/stem-cell-...n-hair-tissue/

read that part, that is the treatment i did, not growth factors  :Smile:

----------


## moleular

Nameless, I don't know how it's done on here in terms of private messaging, but can you get in contact with me please.
There's no point the two of us trying to source a lab separately we should work together on this. As I said, I have a lab lined up and plenty of communication back and forth with the MD to prove it.
Send me your email or I'll post mine on here.

----------


## nameless

> http://stemcelltherapy.cc/stem-cell-...n-hair-tissue/
> 
> read that part, that is the treatment i did, not growth factors


 
Well a few posts above you said that this is the treatment you've done:

http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments...rowth-factors/

This is not adipose derived stem cells. This is growth factors.  It's got me confused about which treatment you've gotten. 

I think that you should have the adipose derived stem cells treatment. And yes, it may take more than one adipose derived stem cell treatment. It may take multiple treatments.

----------


## Alias123

I just sent the wrong link, as you can see on earlier posts and how the procedure was done ( and my email conversation with the clinic in was clearly adipose steam cells , but again no effect this far but I'm
Still hoping for the best

----------


## moleular

nameless, I have received the adipose stem cells at ddr heinrich's centre too. In fact it was probably around the same time as Alias123. I did bump into a young chap when I went there. Maybe that was you alias who i commented to in the waiting room about how hot it was?
Anyway, I can say that it does have some effect. I actually asked for two adipose samples to be taken, as that would yield 100cc of fat from which to harvest stem cells. I asked for this because I wanted to ensure effectiveness, and it seems that other references in research etc. took 100cc, rather than 50cc which is the standard procedure from ddr heinrich.
I can say that it hasn't done a huge amount, but this is something which you have to do a couple of times at least to see some real difference.

Thank you also for the support with the adipose derived stem cell extract funding. I think I'll refer to it as ADSCe from this point forward so that it is clear.
I think a top level post within future treatments would be a good idea, so I'll write up a long post and get it on there to really muster some interest.
Hopefully others will get behind it and post to similar forums they are part of.
Whether I can get it onto a proper crowd-funding platform remains to be seen, as they probably have some rules about funding of medical projects, but I can find out.

With any luck this can drive forward some research (and a solution), and hopefully everyone on here can feel they are actually part of a solution, rather than feeling frustrated (as I know I have) at how it feels so completely out of ones control.

----------


## Arashi

> I can say that it hasn't done a huge amount, but this is something which you have to do a couple of times at least to see some real difference.


 That's what every scammer always will tell you: you just need to buy more ! Not saying all this is a scam, who knows, just saying that as with any unproven therapy, proceed with cauction. Good luck !

----------


## Alias123

moleular haha that was me! are you going back for a second treatment?

----------


## bananana

> I just sent the wrong link, as you can see on earlier posts and how the procedure was done ( and my email conversation with the clinic in was clearly adipose steam cells , but again no effect this far but I'm
> Still hoping for the best


 Ok, let us know how it goes and when (hopefully) will results show. 
Also pics would be appreciated.

----------


## nameless

Alias and Moleular since you two got the Vienna treatment that means you two got the adipose derived stem cell treatment that does NOT involve culturing the adipose derived stem cells according to Alias. The Vienna treatment uses adipose derived stem cells but the cells are not cultured so of course that means that with the Vienna treatment less cells are injected. 

The adipose derived stem cells that involves culturing the cells is the treatment in Switzerland according to Alias. If you had gotten the Swiss treatment that involves culturing the cells more adipose derived stem cells would have been implanted into your skin. A lot more. 

I would have gotten the Swiss treatment because I would have wanted more cells implanted.

----------


## hellouser

> Alias and Moleular since you two got the Vienna treatment that means you two got the adipose derived stem cell treatment that does NOT involve culturing the adipose derived stem cells according to Alias. The Vienna treatment uses adipose derived stem cells but the cells are not cultured so of course that means that with the Vienna treatment less cells are injected. 
> 
> The adipose derived stem cells that involves culturing the cells is the treatment in Switzerland according to Alias. If you had gotten the Swiss treatment that involves culturing the cells more adipose derived stem cells would have been implanted into your skin. A lot more. 
> 
> I would have gotten the Swiss treatment because I would have wanted more cells implanted.


 Do you have a link to their website? the Swiss clinic?

----------


## nameless

> Do you have a link to their website? the Swiss clinic?


 I don't have an email address for their Swiss clinic specifically but you can contact the company through their site and ask for a response. Here is their site:

http://ddrheinrich.com/

Once they respond you can talk with them about both their Vienna treatment and their Swiss treatment. For the Vienna treatment they inject adipose derived stem cells but they do not culture the adipose derived stem cells so I figure you would get less cells injected. For the Swiss treatment they do culture the cells so I figure you would get more cells if you opted for the Swiss treatment. A lot more I figure.

Hellouser I spoke with a Caribbean heart clinic that uses ADSCs. They harvest and inject ADSCs into patient's hearts but they don't culture the cells. I told them I have heart disease to get them talking to me. They told me that culturing the ADSCs causes the cells to lose potency. They wanted my business and they don't culture the cells so maybe they were just telling me that to keep me from doing business with their competition instead. Do you know if culturing adipose derived stem cells causes the cells to lose potency compared to fresh cells that are not cultured?

----------


## joachim

if the treatment is offered by the same clinic (dr. heinrich), what's the reason that the treatment is different in vienna and switzerland? does that make sense? maybe the advanced treatment isn't allowed in vienna because of different laws. but if that's the case that would already indicate that the treatment in vienna isn't worth it, so why offer it anyway?

----------


## zeos

don't know about the treatment but i don't think it's the same clinic
http://www.arsmedical.info/stem-cell...tem-cells.html
http://www.arsmedical.info/contact.html

----------


## nameless

> if the treatment is offered by the same clinic (dr. heinrich), what's the reason that the treatment is different in vienna and switzerland? does that make sense? maybe the advanced treatment isn't allowed in vienna because of different laws. but if that's the case that would already indicate that the treatment in vienna isn't worth it, so why offer it anyway?


 Of course the reason is because of different laws in Switzerland compared to Austria. 

And some people may get some benefit from adipose derived stem cell injection without culture so they make that available in Vienna where it's not lawful to culture the cells, but other people may not benefit without culturing the cells so they make that available in Switzerland where it's lawful. 

You're question should not even have been asked because the answers to your questions are obvious. 

Now that I've given you the obvious answers to your question how about helping us figure out if culturing adipose derived stem cells weakens them or not. That is the BIG and IMPORTANT question because if culturing the cells does weaken them then it may be better to get fresh ADSCs injected without culturing them but if it does not weaken them, or only weakens them a little, or only weakens them after a larger number of passages that we would not need, then it would probably be best to the ADSCs cultured so that means the Swiss treatment would be better. We need answers to these questions.

----------


## nameless

As I indicated I would ask the Vienna and Swiss clinic if they would consider a group discount and here is what they replied:

Regarding special group discounts, for sure we would be happy to accomodate based on our calendar and we are open to discuss with you all details.

Thank you and looking forward to your feedback.

Best regards,

----------


## Alias123

Just to Make things clear with laws etc, the Swiss clinic you are all talking about is located in Greece, not Switzerland

----------


## nameless

> Just to Make things clear with laws etc, the Swiss clinic you are all talking about is located in Greece, not Switzerland


 
Thanks.

Why do they call it the Swiss clinic if it's located in Greece?

----------


## Arashi

Although this of course totally unimportant cause every doctor has some bad results (right Jarjar ?), just wanted to share these reports on Dr Heinrich: 
http://www.realself.com/forum/dr-kar...t-augmentation
http://forum.plasticsurgery.com/DDr-...nce-m1840.aspx

----------


## hellouser

> Although this of course totally unimportant cause every doctor has some bad results (right Jarjar ?), just wanted to share these reports on Dr Heinrich: 
> http://www.realself.com/forum/dr-kar...t-augmentation
> http://forum.plasticsurgery.com/DDr-...nce-m1840.aspx


 This comment is pretty scary:




> i had my operation with him and i am very unhappy now.he ruined my body.

----------


## Arashi

Also alarmbells should go off here:

* No photo's on his website for hair results
* He sells extremely expensive liquids on his website, without specifying what's exactly in them, let alone with result studies
* He has studied "Traditional Chinese Medicine" and sells products based on that. I hope I don't have to explain how TCM is a proven scam.

How much does he charge for his hair stem cell therapy ? I'd say, keep in mind that taking away fat can possibly defigure your body (just think of a bad lipo), that the chance is high you won't see any results at all and that this most probably is going to cost you tons of money ... All for that small tiny chance that this actually is going to improve your hair situation ... I'd say, go with a FUE first and only if you're out of options due to depleted donor, consider something like this ... 

This guy seems to care more about getting your money than about getting results ..

----------


## Alias123

Im going to wait 2-3 more weeks until i decide if I take another treatment at DDR Heinrich, I might take my second treatment in the swiss( they have their main clinic in Switzerland but the one where the AAPE is fixed is outside Athens) I think the  Heinrich clinic was fresh, top location in Vienna so I'm not too worry about HIM being a scam, but of course the treatment itself can lack efficiency) but the group discount rate for the one in Greece sounds amazing, it's still 3000 more than the Vienna clinic...  But if they can push it down that would be great!

----------


## Arashi

> Im going to wait 2-3 more weeks until i decide if I take another treatment at DDR Heinrich, I might take my second treatment in the swiss( they have their main clinic in Switzerland but the one where the AAPE is fixed is outside Athens) I think the  Heinrich clinic was fresh, top location in Vienna so I'm not too worry about HIM being a scam, but of course the treatment itself can lack efficiency) but the group discount rate for the one in Greece sounds amazing, it's still 3000 more than the Vienna clinic...  But if they can push it down that would be great!


 Well the guy sells both proven scam products and unproven/highly controversial therapies like this one and PRP. That's a sign he cares more about money than results. That being said, there's of course a small chance you might gain some hair, who knows ...  But just be careful, even 'simple' surgeries like removing the fat can result in disfigured bodies like this: http://www.bhaesthetics.com/uploads/...0f6fff0cf8.jpg

----------


## Kudu

If I had to choose one member to decide whether a treatment was a scam or not, it would have to be Arashi. The guy can spot a fake doctor from 30 miles away lol.

----------


## nameless

> If I had to choose one member to decide whether a treatment was a scam or not, it would have to be Arashi. The guy can spot a fake doctor from 30 miles away lol.


 I would not count on Arishi's judgement although I would consider his hard evidence and then make my own decision.

----------


## nameless

> Im going to wait 2-3 more weeks until i decide if I take another treatment at DDR Heinrich, I might take my second treatment in the swiss( they have their main clinic in Switzerland but the one where the AAPE is fixed is outside Athens) I think the  Heinrich clinic was fresh, top location in Vienna so I'm not too worry about HIM being a scam, but of course the treatment itself can lack efficiency) but the group discount rate for the one in Greece sounds amazing, it's still 3000 more than the Vienna clinic...  But if they can push it down that would be great!


 Are you sure they also do AAPE treatments?  

If they do AAPE treatments how much do the AAPE treatments cost?

Please post a link to them doing AAPE treatments.

----------


## Arashi

> If I had to choose one member to decide whether a treatment was a scam or not, it would have to be Arashi. The guy can spot a fake doctor from 30 miles away lol.


 LOL, thanks but I'm not saying this is a 'fake doctor', but merely that I'd be careful. In general stay away from clinics that are pure money making factories and go for the doctors who do their job with a passion and who really care about their patients. But of course when it comes to adipose derived stem cells, there isn't much choice at the moment ...

----------


## zeos

http://theracell.eu/?page_id=17
''Theracell constantly exploits opportunities in regenerative biotechnology, using autologous adult stem cells and other cellular products. In order to develop and exploit the benefits of this exciting field, we work closely with doctors and we constantly try to establish collaborations with major medical institutions in Greece and other countries. We have unparalleled experience in the isolation, processing and application of Adipose Derived Stem Cells (ADSC’s), as well as somatic cells such as chondrocytes, fibroblasts and hair follicle cells. We have also developed several products based on the use of autologous growth factors that can be used in reconstructive medicine and tissue repair. The company constantly develops new products and services in Aesthetic Medicine, Orthopedics, Arthroplastic Surgery, Sports Medicine, Dentistry, Ulcer treatment and Ophthalmology.''

----------


## nameless

> Although this of course totally unimportant cause every doctor has some bad results (right Jarjar ?), just wanted to share these reports on Dr Heinrich: 
> http://www.realself.com/forum/dr-kar...t-augmentation
> http://forum.plasticsurgery.com/DDr-...nce-m1840.aspx


 
Two of our own posters, Alias and Moleular, have gone to Heinrich for injections and neither of them are saying that they have been disfigured. 

I'm not saying that Heinrich didn't disfigure the patient you post about but I can say that here we have two patients who are not reporting disfigurement.

----------


## nameless

> http://theracell.eu/?page_id=17
> ''Theracell constantly exploits opportunities in regenerative biotechnology, using autologous adult stem cells and other cellular products. In order to develop and exploit the benefits of this exciting field, we work closely with doctors and we constantly try to establish collaborations with major medical institutions in Greece and other countries. We have unparalleled experience in the isolation, processing and application of Adipose Derived Stem Cells (ADSC’s), as well as somatic cells such as chondrocytes, fibroblasts and hair follicle cells. We have also developed several products based on the use of autologous growth factors that can be used in reconstructive medicine and tissue repair. The company constantly develops new products and services in Aesthetic Medicine, Orthopedics, Arthroplastic Surgery, Sports Medicine, Dentistry, Ulcer treatment and Ophthalmology.''


 This company is involved in research to find treatment candidates for official clinical studies. This company does not offer ADSCs or ADSC extract for commercial use at the present time. This is a development company. It has no use for us unless you are willing to wait maybe 10 years. This thread is more about ADSC treatments or ADSC extract treatments that are presently available.

----------


## hgs1989

> http://theracell.eu/?page_id=17
> ''Theracell constantly exploits opportunities in regenerative biotechnology, using autologous adult stem cells and other cellular products. In order to develop and exploit the benefits of this exciting field, we work closely with doctors and we constantly try to establish collaborations with major medical institutions in Greece and other countries. We have unparalleled experience in the isolation, processing and application of Adipose Derived Stem Cells (ADSCs), as well as somatic cells such as chondrocytes, fibroblasts and hair follicle cells. We have also developed several products based on the use of autologous growth factors that can be used in reconstructive medicine and tissue repair. The company constantly develops new products and services in Aesthetic Medicine, Orthopedics, Arthroplastic Surgery, Sports Medicine, Dentistry, Ulcer treatment and Ophthalmology.''


 the evidence on the use ADSC and their secreted proteins is keep piling up. more and more scientist should look into their potential as hair loss treatments.

----------


## hellouser

Wouldn't it be better to get confirmation about this from Dr. Jahoda / Dr. Lauster or one of their team members rather than putting trust into the marketing campaign and PR talk from the clinic websites? I take their claims with a grain of salt but would MUCH rather take the word from an actual known and credible scientist.

Also, you guys should look into some patents on the use of adipose derived stem cells:

https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts&gws_...fe=off&tbm=pts

----------


## nameless

> Wouldn't it be better to get confirmation about this from Dr. Jahoda / Dr. Lauster or one of their team members rather than putting trust into the marketing campaign and PR talk from the clinic websites? I take their claims with a grain of salt but would MUCH rather take the word from an actual known and credible scientist.
> 
> Also, you guys should look into some patents on the use of adipose derived stem cells:
> 
> https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts&gws_...fe=off&tbm=pts


 
We don't need to ask Jahoda anything. In the Dr. Gardner thread, the thread that Arishi scared Dr. Gardner out of, Dr. Gardner stated that Jahoda will be using fat cells so they can get the growth factor signals into follicles. We have already been given Dr. Jahoda's opinion on the matter. And you were heavily involved in that thread so you should already know Jahoda's opinion on this issue. You need to learn to transpose information from one thread to another. 

In fact, Dr. Jahoda thinks that fat cells, and they're growth factor signals, are key factors for hair growth.

----------


## hellouser

> We don't need to ask Jahoda anything. In the Dr. Gardner thread, the thread that Arishi scared Dr. Gardner out of, Dr. Gardner stated that Jahoda will be using fat cells so they can get the growth factor signals into follicles. We have already been given Dr. Jahoda's opinion on the matter. And you were heavily involved in that thread so you should already know Jahoda's opinion on this issue. You need to learn to transpose information from one thread to another. 
> 
> In fact, Dr. Jahoda thinks that fat cells, and they're growth factor signals, are key factors for hair growth.


 I'm sorry for not memorizing absolutely everything I read. 

Please note, I was not 'heavily' involved in that thread. You were. And both you and Arashi's immature bickering was the real reason Gardner bounced.

----------


## Arashi

> I'm sorry for not memorizing absolutely everything I read. 
> 
> Please note, I was not 'heavily' involved in that thread. You were. And both you and Arashi's immature bickering was the real reason Gardner bounced.


 There wasn't much bickering going on in that thread I avoided that.  I just gave a very polite warning to jarjar that if he'd keep spamming the doctor,  he would most probably leave.

----------


## nameless

> I'm sorry for not memorizing absolutely everything I read. 
> 
> Please note, I was not 'heavily' involved in that thread. You were. And both you and Arashi's immature bickering was the real reason Gardner bounced.


 
* You were involved in the thread enough Hellouser. You should know the answer to your question.  I'm not trying to give you a hard time but we should be trying to figure out what to do and that's hard to do when you have to repeat the same thing over and over and over again to some folks. All I'm saying is please try to stay on point and please try to keep aware of what you have already RECENTLY learnt. I'm trying to help Hellouser but it makes it harder if we have to go over the same things over and over again. 

* Did you see my post with the email response from the ADSC clinic indicating that they are open to the idea of a group discount?

* I just got another email from them indicating that if the cells are cultured in the correct manner and below a specific number of times they retain their potency. Here is the email:

If cell culture is done in such a way to give cells enough room to breath (avoid crowded flasks) and go up to 6 passages, then cells could be cryopreserved (liquid nitrogen -196 degrees C) and still have full potency.

Best regards,

----------


## hellouser

> There wasn't much bickering going on in that thread I avoided that.  I just gave a very polite warning to jarjar that if he'd keep spamming the doctor,  he would most probably leave.


 Meh, not important anyway. The real problem is the absence of Gardner.

----------


## nameless

> There wasn't much bickering going on in that thread I avoided that.  I just gave a very polite warning to jarjar that if he'd keep spamming the doctor,  he would most probably leave.


 Arishi What you call a "polite warning" is bickering. It's your typical condescending, boorish, overbearing, attitude you always display as if what you say has special importance because you're Arishi. You need to understand that I have only limited respect for the things you say because you have made numerous mistakes and you aren't very smart. I will consider any evidence you put forth but I will not accept your judgment or conclusions. I will come to my own conclusions about your evidence because of your past mistakes, most famously your assertions that the 2014 hair loss congress scientists had resolved the trichogenicity issue. BTW you "warned" me on that issue too and look how wrong you were. You would be better served if you stop talking and start doing some listening instead.

----------


## nameless

> There wasn't much bickering going on in that thread I avoided that.  I just gave a very polite warning to jarjar that if he'd keep spamming the doctor,  he would most probably leave.


 Dr. Gardner left because he got tired of your boorish bickering.

----------


## Haircure

> Arishi What you call a "polite warning" is bickering. It's your typical condescending, boorish, overbearing, attitude you always display as if what you say has special importance because you're Arishi. You need to understand that I have only limited respect for the things you say because you have made numerous mistakes and you aren't very smart. I will consider any evidence you put forth but I will not accept your judgment or conclusions. I will come to my own conclusions about your evidence because of your past mistakes, most famously your assertions that the 2014 hair loss congress scientists had resolved the trichogenicity issue. BTW you "warned" me on that issue too and look how wrong you were. You would be better served if you stop talking and start doing some listening instead.


 You know what's interesting? You've just described all your faults just perfectly in the post above. In fact you do it in every post involving criticisms of others. You might want to get another I.Q. test done because the one you took from the back of a cereal box in my opinion just doesn't do you "genius" enough justice. After that maybe you can revisit a real post-secondary institution and get a real college degree rather than the imaginary one which you so clearly like to show off. Better yet why not just get in some therapy sessions while your at it, who knows maybe you can finally get the help you need for delusions of grandeur, overcompensation, and psychological projection.

----------


## maomao

> * He has studied "Traditional Chinese Medicine" and sells products based on that. I hope I don't have to explain how TCM is a proven scam.


 Gonna have to disagree with you on that - TCM is a perfectly acceptable form of treatment, how do you think people got better before medicine was invented?

Of course I can't say how well it relates to hairloss, but when I'm feeling sick, I prefer to go to the TCM doctor and get a herbal remedy than loads of drugs.

----------


## hgs1989

> We don't need to ask Jahoda anything. In the Dr. Gardner thread, the thread that Arishi scared Dr. Gardner out of, Dr. Gardner stated that Jahoda will be using fat cells so they can get the growth factor signals into follicles. We have already been given Dr. Jahoda's opinion on the matter. And you were heavily involved in that thread so you should already know Jahoda's opinion on this issue. You need to learn to transpose information from one thread to another. 
> 
> In fact, Dr. Jahoda thinks that fat cells, and they're growth factor signals, are key factors for hair growth.


 you are right. I personally asked Dr.Gardner about the use of Gf for hair and he said they would work but stability and adjacent cells effects might be a concern.

----------


## Arashi

> Dr. Gardner left because he got tired of your boorish bickering.


 Really ? Then it should be very easy to pinpoint all those 'bickering posts' of mine in that thread right ? Can you show them to me ? In fact, I'll make it very easy, here are my 16 posts in that thread, show me which ones were bickering: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/search.php?searchid=20601
Only that very last post was directed at you and that was posted AFTER he left. None of the other posts were bickering or even directed at you. So you're full of nonsense again, as ALWAYS.

----------


## Arashi

And since I've shown that your argument was made out of thin air (there was no bickering in that thread), please allow me to give my arguments why in my opinion you scared him away. Let's look at some of your posts then:

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...ht=#post174958
Especially 


> Would it be better to use fat cells (for implantation into the recipient area) that come from underneath the strong thick hairs in the donor region rather than using fat cells from say another part of the body, such as the stomach? My reason for asking this question is that *there a lot of obese people who do NOT have long hairs on their stomachs despite having an abundance of fat cells in their stomachs and also having follicles in their stomachs.*


 Really ? I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. Why the hell would he want to add fat from the stomach ? Of coure he's not even considering that ! He just said that in his model he wants to add other cells so that outside of the body, he can mimic the human scalp environment as closely as possible. That has NOTHING to do with stomach fat ! And then that comment about long hair on the stomach... Wow ... I laughed out loud there actually.

Then:

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...ht=#post174568

Specifically 


> wouldn't it be better to focus on how to produce hair cells with good inductivity and then injecting those cells into the skin so they can prompt hair to grow through the existing follicles rather than focusing on how to grow whole follicles and then having to implant the whole follicle into the skin?


 This guy has spent the last few years of his life full time trying to generate hair follicles and you say he should just stop doing it and focus on a different approach ? Really ? Do you have any idea how insulting that must sound ?

Then:
https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...ht=#post174966

Specifically 


> 10% inductivity to 60% inductivity does not sound very consistant to me. That is quite a wide range. 
> 
> Didn't the scientists on the Jahoda team report 22% inductivity at the 2013 IHSRS last October? If the Jahoda team already reported 22% at last year's ISHRS and now scientists are in a range of 10% to 60% that means that their lowest result (10%) is actually worse than what the Jahoda team accomplished the year before. 
> 
> *Have they figured out yet why some results were 10% and some were 60%? I think that scientists should try to reduce the range. They should try to figure out why some cells retain 10% and some retain 60% because the range is so wide that it seems unpredictable and unreliable. It just seems like it will be very difficult to move forward until you can get stability into these wild fluctuations.* 
> 
> These wild fluctuations are disheartening. *It creates the feeling that scientists can't control the progress that they've made*.


 Wow ... You really topped yourself there. You basically tell him he sucks at doing his work and then you ask some totally irrelevant questions and show you have no idea what you're even talking about.

And then you spam him with several questions in a row, like here: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...Gardner/page16 See that last post on that page and then the first 3 posts on the next page. They are ALL yours ! They're all long, each one consisting of several sub questions, they're all irrelevant, or asked before, and/or demonstrating you're clueless and realy don't even understand what you're asking. Do you want me to clarify that ? And you think it's weird he left ? Why the HELL would he enjoy answering those pages of nonrelevant, bizarre and stupid questions ? What if his collegue's look what he's up to and they see him answering those questions, what do you think they'd say ?

----------


## Alias123

Please this is the Only post i really find valuable at the moment please don't start arguing in it and rather contribute with. Opinions on the treatment, since me and moleur are going through with this treatment it could be of great value to this forum if we keep this thread clean

----------


## zeos

> This company is involved in research to find treatment candidates for official clinical studies. This company does not offer ADSCs or ADSC extract for commercial use at the present time. This is a development company. It has no use for us unless you are willing to wait maybe 10 years. This thread is more about ADSC treatments or ADSC extract treatments that are presently available.


 don't think so,
i have just found a clinic in athens which is offering the ADSC  treatment(maybe this is an annex  of the  Swiss clinic in athens-we have to find this out)and collaborates with that laboratory(http://theracell.eu/)

we should contact theracell to get all the  addresses of clinics where we can get this treatment
with which clinic are you in contact?

----------


## Alias123

http://www.iatrikopsychikou.gr/

that is the ''swiss clinic'' so everyone has that clear  :Smile: 
Source: respons from their email.
o do autologous adipose tissue stem cell treatment to your zones B & C areas in order to strengthen your hair follicles (http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html). The proposed treatment will serve to stimulate hair growth, strengthen weak follicles and stop the process of hair loss.

 3) We will need you to come to Athens Greece, proposed available period 

 4) We will need you just for one day for the treatment from morning till afternoon in our state of the art clinic in Athens (http://www.iatrikopsychikou.gr/). Then you will be discharged and be able to go back to your normal life.

 5) Liposuction and Autologous Stem Cell treatment will be performed by specialized plastic surgeon

----------


## Arashi

> http://www.iatrikopsychikou.gr/
> 
> that is the ''swiss clinic'' so everyone has that clear 
> Source: respons from their email.
> o do autologous adipose tissue stem cell treatment to your zones B & C areas in order to strengthen your hair follicles (http://www.arsmedical.info/template-...tem-cells.html). The proposed treatment will serve to stimulate hair growth, strengthen weak follicles and stop the process of hair loss.
> 
>  3) We will need you to come to Athens Greece, proposed available period 
> 
>  4) We will need you just for one day for the treatment from morning till afternoon in our state of the art clinic in Athens (http://www.iatrikopsychikou.gr/). Then you will be discharged and be able to go back to your normal life.
> ...


 What I'd ask them is to give you a guarantee. Ask them to do a hair count before and after and in case there's no improvement, a restitution of all your money. You're paying a hefty sum, you will want to have results ! Most probably they'll give you some BS like "yeah we can't do that cause it doesn't work in all patients" or something like that. In that case, I'd move on.

----------


## Alias123

smart, ill do that! thank you for the advice

----------


## nameless

> And since I've shown that your argument was made out of thin air (there was no bickering in that thread), please allow me to give my arguments why in my opinion you scared him away. Let's look at some of your posts then:
> 
> https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...ht=#post174958
> Especially 
> 
> Really ? I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. Why the hell would he want to add fat from the stomach ? Of coure he's not even considering that ! He just said that in his model he wants to add other cells so that outside of the body, he can mimic the human scalp environment as closely as possible. That has NOTHING to do with stomach fat ! And then that comment about long hair on the stomach... Wow ... I laughed out loud there actually.
> 
> Then:
> 
> ...


 Arishi shut up.

I will ask the questions I ask and you ask the questions you ask. 

Just because you think some question doesn't need answering doesn't mean that another poster doesn't have the right to ask that question. If a person is stuck on an issue then the person should ask a question about it so that he can get *unstuck* about that issue. Every teacher in America says,"There is no stupid question" but those teachers have never met the Arishi boorish overbearing controlling personal who ridicules other persons (in this case myself) because you feel you have the right to censor other poster's questions. The stupidest thing ever said at this site was your insistence that the 2014 hair loss congress researchers had resolved the trichogenicity issue so you are in no position to insult anyone else's intelligence. The 2nd stupidest thing said at this site is your ignorant resistance to AAPE. I have no respect for any of your judgments or conclusions. I will look over evidence you submit to the site but I reject the conclusions you come to because you're a mistake prone boor.

----------


## nameless

> don't think so,
> i have just found a clinic in athens which is offering the ADSC  treatment(maybe this is an annex  of the  Swiss clinic in athens-we have to find this out)and collaborates with that laboratory(http://theracell.eu/)
> 
> we should contact theracell to get all the  addresses of clinics where we can get this treatment
> with which clinic are you in contact?


 This is the clinic I'm talking with:

http://ddrheinrich.com/en/treatments/face-skin-hair/

As I posted they are willing to entertain the idea of a group discount. 

And you are definitely right that we should get in touch with theracell to try to learn the addresses of ALL of the clinics where we can get this treatment so that we can determine which is the best clinic. And given that the ddrheinrich clinic was positive about the idea of giving a group discount I think other clinics that offer this treatment might also be willing to give a group discount.

----------


## hellouser

> What I'd ask them is to give you a guarantee. Ask them to do a hair count before and after and in case there's no improvement, a restitution of all your money. You're paying a hefty sum, you will want to have results ! Most probably they'll give you some BS like "yeah we can't do that cause it doesn't work in all patients" or something like that. In that case, I'd move on.


 Wouldn't it be REALLY difficult to do a hair count? I mean, the only time that it's really obvious that there's more hair is after an HT or some seriously good results with finasteride/minoxidil/ru58841 (which rarely happen).

You have to taken into account the patient being on any existing meds. And then if growth does occur, you could attribute it to meds rather than the ADSC treatment. But let's say they're not on meds... what about hair growth cycles? Could it not be possible for growth to be at the hands of hair coming back into the anagen phase in sync? How would they even do a hair count though? Using one area would be difficult.... and how would they even count one area before and ensure the EXACT same area gets counted again months later? I can only see this happening with dotted tattoo markers; 4 points creating a square but done in several areas across the balding scalp.

----------


## Arashi

> Wouldn't it be REALLY difficult to do a hair count? I mean, the only time that it's really obvious that there's more hair is after an HT or some seriously good results with finasteride/minoxidil/ru58841 (which rarely happen).
> 
> You have to taken into account the patient being on any existing meds. And then if growth does occur, you could attribute it to meds rather than the ADSC treatment. But let's say they're not on meds... what about hair growth cycles? Could it not be possible for growth to be at the hands of hair coming back into the anagen phase in sync? How would they even do a hair count though? Using one area would be difficult.... and how would they even count one area before and ensure the EXACT same area gets counted again months later? I can only see this happening with dotted tattoo markers; 4 points creating a square but done in several areas across the balding scalp.


 About the hair cycles: at any given point about 10% of the hair is in its resting phase. Unless injecting those cells would somehow influence that cycle there wouldn't be any substantial change in hair count, so I don't think that would be a problem. A hair count itself is rather easy to perform, several clinics can offer it if you ask for it. I don't think they'd need to mark it with tattoo's, just a hair count on 3-4 spots in the treated area would be enough.

It's something I'd definitely ask for anyway.

----------


## hellouser

> About the hair cycles: at any given point about 10% of the hair is in its resting phase. Unless injecting those cells would somehow influence that cycle there wouldn't be any substantial change in hair count, so I don't think that would be a problem. A hair count itself is rather easy to perform, several clinics can offer it if you ask for it. I don't think they'd need to mark it with tattoo's, just a hair count on 3-4 spots in the treated area would be enough.
> 
> It's something I'd definitely ask for anyway.


 Ok, but what if the hair goes into crazy shedding like it would on minoxidil? Do we then say 'yeah, the treatment makes hair worse' only to find out a year later that it actually has positive effects? This would require several hair counts over an extended period of time.

----------


## Arashi

> Ok, but what if the hair goes into crazy shedding like it would on minoxidil? Do we then say 'yeah, the treatment makes hair worse' only to find out a year later that it actually has positive effects? This would require several hair counts over an extended period of time.


 Yeah you could give them a year as a time period to do the 2 hair counts, any shedding should have stopped long before the end of a year. But maybe they say that shedding is highly unlikely to occur anyway and they'd agree with a shorter time period. But, most likely, they won't do the hair count anyway since they're unsure of the results themselves. Which would be enough reason for me to move on.

----------


## Arashi

@JarJarbinx/nameless: 

First of all, this is going to be my last post on the subject. Let's keep this thread on topic from now on. So, after this post I will give you the opportunity to make more baseless accusations cause I know you will want to have the last word and you're going to make up that I said all kinds of stupid things without any proof as usual. That's all good. Then, After that let's never mention dr Gardner again in this thread and keep it on topic. Deal ?

Now first of all:



> I will ask the questions I ask and you ask the questions you ask.


 I actually agree with this. Even though it would have most probably resulted in dr Gardner being around here some longer, I don't believe in a system where a moderator or anyone decides what can be said and what can't be. I'm a strong advocate of freedom of speech and a system like that sooner or later always leads to problems. So yeah, you can ask whatever interests you. In fact, I'm hoping we can motivate Dr Gardner to come back here next year after the next conference and do a short Q&A again. However, next time, just please consider that a professor like him comes here for his enjoyment. Most academics with a passion for their job enjoy conversation about it. To keep it enjoyable for him to, please at least consider next time to:

* Just ask ONE question at a time ! Think of the thing you would want to know the most, post it and then let him answer that question first and give others the opportunity to post questions and have their answers. Don't flood him with tons of questions/posts in a row.
* Just don't tell him how to do his job ! 
* Really read his answer thoroughly and TRY to understand what he says before moving on to the next question !
* Ask yourself, is there even anyway he could possibly know the answer to my question ?
* Keep up with the thread and don't post questions that have been asked before. If you can't bring that up, then just dont post at all !
* Ask yourself: WHY am I even asking this ? 
* Read the questions from others ! Some really interesting and intelligent questions where posted by posters like Joachim, SdSurfin, JJJJrS and many more. I really enjoyed reading them and often times that's much more interesting than just pushing your next question online.

Basically just try to keep all this enjoyable for him too. Of course he understands not everybody is an academic here, that doesn't matter at all ! 

Anyway, just some well meant advice and hopefully next time he'll stick around some longer !

----------


## nameless

> @JarJarbinx/nameless: 
> 
> First of all, this is going to be my last post on the subject. Let's keep this thread on topic from now on. So, after this post I will give you the opportunity to make more baseless accusations cause I know you will want to have the last word and you're going to make up that I said all kinds of stupid things without any proof as usual. That's all good. Then, After that let's never mention dr Gardner again in this thread and keep it on topic. Deal ?
> 
> Now first of all:
> 
> I actually agree with this. Even though it would have most probably resulted in dr Gardner being around here some longer, I don't believe in a system where a moderator or anyone decides what can be said and what can't be. I'm a strong advocate of freedom of speech and a system like that sooner or later always leads to problems. So yeah, you can ask whatever interests you. In fact, I'm hoping we can motivate Dr Gardner to come back here next year after the next conference and do a short Q&A again. However, next time, just please consider that a professor like him comes here for his enjoyment. Most academics with a passion for their job enjoy conversation about it. To keep it enjoyable for him to, please at least consider next time to:
> 
> * Just ask ONE question at a time ! Think of the thing you would want to know the most, post it and then let him answer that question first and give others the opportunity to post questions and have their answers. Don't flood him with tons of questions/posts in a row.
> ...


 Well, I see you went through a lot of trouble to type and post a long boring, and no doubt misleading, post to detail all the things I did that you claim drove Dr. Gardner away. I will make my post short and sweet. 

How about if Dr. Gardner comes back you refrain from posting and let Gardner talk to everyone except you and that ssudsurfin guy, who posts whole books to Dr. Gardner. If you and ssudsurfin would refrain from posting I'm sure that would be sufficient to keep Dr. Gardner from leaving again. 

And when you get right down to it you're posts are full if mistakes and incorrect conclusions anyway, such as your post stating that the 2014 hair loss congress researchers solved the trichogeniticy problem and how needhairasap is in cahoots with Yoram. Give me a break.

Now let's you and I stop our bickering so that me and the people with sense can evaluate the idea of ADSCs to possibly treat hair loss. Keep in mind that Dr. Gardner said that Jahoda himself is going to use these same cells to get DP cells to grow follicles so this means that Jahoda himself believes that these cells can enlarge follicles. 

Let's have peace and constructive dialogue.

----------


## Alias123

I have a phone consultation scheduled tomorrow with the clinic in Greece, anyone have any questions you want me to ask?

----------


## zeos

> I have a phone consultation scheduled tomorrow with the clinic in Greece, anyone have any questions you want me to ask?


 names of  plastic surgeon,clinic,laboratory

----------


## Arashi

> names of  plastic surgeon,clinic,laboratory


 Good questions ! Also ask them about any guarantees, preferably with haircounts. Ask them about possible shedding. And ask them about the cell culturing: how many passes, how many cells, are there benefits, health risks, things like that. Good luck !

----------


## PaddyBateman

I believe that Ziering UK have been conducting clinical trials on Adipose stem cell this year, and are looking to start providing this treatment following a successful trial.

----------


## hellouser

> I believe that Ziering UK have been conducting clinical trials on Adipose stem cell this year, and are looking to start providing this treatment following a successful trial.


 Zeiring? The TV doctor? That guy is as credible as Dr. Drew.

----------


## hgs1989

> I believe that Ziering UK have been conducting clinical trials on Adipose stem cell this year, and are looking to start providing this treatment following a successful trial.


 source?!

----------


## PaddyBateman

> Zeiring? The TV doctor? That guy is as credible as Dr. Drew.


 Haha, oh come on. 

Spencer Kobren would disagree somewhat.

And it's the UK clinics as far as I know.

----------


## PaddyBateman

> source?!


 Myself. I had surgery there. Ive discussed it in my several post-op check ups.

----------


## hgs1989

> Myself. I had surgery there. Ive discussed it in my several post-op check ups.


 nice. would you give us more details?

----------


## hellouser

> Haha, oh come on. 
> 
> Spencer Kobren would disagree somewhat.
> 
> And it's the UK clinics as far as I know.


 I don't take Zeiring seriously at all. This dude has his name slapped on every hair treatment known to man. Nothing he's done has been better than a simple stone aged hair transplant.

----------


## PaddyBateman

> I don't take Zeiring seriously at all. This dude has his name slapped on every hair treatment known to man. Nothing he's done has been better than a simple stone aged hair transplant.


 Pls elaborate with details? I was unaware that he has done things to garner a reputation like this. 

Also, why does Spencer vouch for him then ?

----------


## hellouser

> Pls elaborate with details? I was unaware that he has done things to garner a reputation like this.


 He's on television selling all sorts of crappy treatments. Even tried to sell the laser helmet;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQF8--8hRTo

You'd never see Dr. Jahoda, Lauster, Cotsarelis or Christiano selling this kind of shit.




> Also, why does Spencer vouch for him then ?


 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

----------


## hgs1989

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20956069

Application of mesenchymal stem cells(MSC) derived from bone marrow and umbilical cord in human hair multiplication.

they took MSC cultured then in a special medium (hydrocortisone and HGF) and injected them in mice and the result is that they induced hair follicle formation on nued mice. keep in mind that MSC can also be obtained from fat tissue (another name is adipose derived stem cells). opens the Idea of hair growth and new hair formation if Fat stem cells combined with prp and hydrocortisone(already used for Alopecia areata)  rather than Acell+prp. since it can be done using the patient's own cells , it is achievable now.
Alias123 if you are going for your next treatment , you can combine both.

----------


## nameless

> I believe that Ziering UK have been conducting clinical trials on Adipose stem cell this year, and are looking to start providing this treatment following a successful trial.


 Could you please provide a source to prove this?

----------


## hellouser

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20956069
> 
> Application of mesenchymal stem cells(MSC) derived from bone marrow and umbilical cord in human hair multiplication.
> 
> they took MSC cultured then in a special medium (hydrocortisone and HGF) and injected them in mice and the result is that they induced hair follicle formation on nued mice. keep in mind that MSC can also be obtained from fat tissue (another name is adipose derived stem cells). opens the Idea of hair growth and new hair formation if Fat stem cells combined with prp and hydrocortisone(already used for Alopecia areata)  rather than Acell+prp. since it can be done using the patient's own cells , it is achievable now.
> Alias123 if you are going for your next treatment , you can combine both.


 That study was done on mice.

Would be nice if these 'compassionate' researchers did something meaningful... you know, like do research on humans rather than ****ing mice?

----------


## nameless

> I have a phone consultation scheduled tomorrow with the clinic in Greece, anyone have any questions you want me to ask?


 
Alias I have questions for you to ask but I can't figure out who you're going to see. You said there were two clinics. You said one is in Vienna and the other is Swiss. Now you're saying the one is in Greece. So it looks like maybe now you are talking about 3 clinics (one is Vienna, one in Greece, and one in Switzerland) but I can't tell. You're not making your statements clear. 

Is the ARS clinic and the Dr. Heinrich clinic the same clinic or are they different?

At the top of the ARS website it says they are in Switzerland. Are you saying that they aren't really in Switzerland?

Could you please clear some things up because you appear to be talking about 3 different clinics (Switzerland, Vienna, and Greece), and the different clinics have different names (ARS clinic & Dr. Heinrich clinic) but you also say they are both the same clinic just in different locations. If they're both Dr. Heinrich clinics then why are you saying that one of the clinics is called ARS?  If they're both Dr. Heinrich clinics then they should both be called Dr. Heinrich clinics. 

Would you please stop and think before you post and clear up where these clinics are and the names of the clinic.

----------


## nameless

> Just to Make things clear with laws etc, the Swiss clinic you are all talking about is located in Greece, not Switzerland


 Why are you saying that the Swiss clinic is in Greece?  Are you saying that there is no ADSC clinic in Switzerland?

----------


## hairandthere

> I don't take Zeiring seriously at all. This dude has his name slapped on every hair treatment known to man. Nothing he's done has been better than a simple stone aged hair transplant.


 Are you implying that he lied about testing Histogen on humans? AFAIK, he claimed this on the show with Spencer and said that he hoped to be able to share some results in the future.

While a lot of the stuff you say is accurate, some of it is emotional and truth gets lost when that happens. 

Let's try to stay positive and constructive. 

As Wu-Tang puts it, C.R.E.A.M. In the end, money rules all and there are huge profits to be made in hairloss. If a treatment existed with the confidence that it would provide a good ROI, you can bet your ass it would be fast-tracked by those with the money and the connections! We're only getting closer...  :Cool:

----------


## Jasari

> Pls elaborate with details? I was unaware that he has done things to garner a reputation like this. 
> 
> Also, why does Spencer vouch for him then ?


 I don't extensively know all the ins & outs of the hair loss industry but I've been on & off these boards for the better part of 5-6 years & I've even noticed Zeiring advertising/supporting some bogus bs. 

I've also got the impression that Spencer is more about money than progress, especially after listening to a few radio podcasts.

----------


## nameless

> you are right. I personally asked Dr.Gardner about the use of Gf for hair and he said they would work but stability and adjacent cells effects might be a concern.


 HGS1989 check this out: since Jahoda is now using a construct that let's him add these same adipose derived stem cells to DP cells to create and enlarge follicles this means that if we get these adipose derived stem cells injections (Swiss clinic or greece clinic or Vienna clinic) we would be doing the same thing that Jahoda is doing, except that we would be doing it in our scalps whereas Jahoda is doing it in a petri-dish. 

Let me say it again. Check this out:

* Jahoda is adding these cells to dp cells so he can grow and enlarge follicles. 

* We would be putting these cells into our scalps to enlarge the existing follicles that are already in our scalps.

* This means we would be doing the same thing that Jahoda is doing except we would be doing it in the skin of our scalps instead of inside a petri-dish.



Also, an important note is that the Yale scientists discovered that the adipose precursor cells excrete 100 times as much of some growth factors as regular fat cells excrete. By injecting pure precursor cells (adipose derived stem cells) you are injecting 100 times more growth factors as you would if you just injected regular fat cells. So the key to this is to add the precursor fat cells, aka adipose derived stem cells so that you can bomb the follicles with the growth factors.

----------


## hgs1989

> That study was done on mice.
> 
> Would be nice if these 'compassionate' researchers did something meaningful... you know, like do research on humans rather than ****ing mice?


 yes but the hair was a human one. every thing was derived from human source and implanted on a nude mouse.

----------


## nameless

Dr. Gardner works for Dr. Jahoda. Dr. Gardner explained to us the following:

*  Jahoda is now starting to add ADSCs to his cell culturing with hair cells so that the growth factors in ADSC will help the follicles form and enlarge.

Now think about this:

*  The Swiss company is adding ADSCs to our hair cells so in our scalps and to the follicles in our scalps so that the growth factors in ADSC will help new follicles form and enlarge the already existing follicles in our scalps.

If you stop to think about it what the Swiss are doing, adding these adipose derived stem cells to our scalps, is the same thing that Jahoda is doing except that Jahoda is doing it in a petri-dish whereas the Swiss would do it in our scalps. The Swiss are bypassing the need to create follicles in a pertri-dish outside the person's body.

And Jahoda's petri-dish method is going to be way more complicated and way more expensive because you are having to create follicles in a petri-dish whereas the Swiss way utilizes the follicles that are already present in your own scalp. And in Jahoda's petri-dish method you would have to rely on the artistry of the doctor who implants the petri-dish follicles into your scalp. If you do it the Swiss way instead then the already existing follicles in your scalp could enlarge and they would probably articulate (grow outward) the same way they did naturally before hair loss started.

----------


## hgs1989

> yes but the hair was a human one. every thing was derived from human source and implanted on a nude mouse.


 the good news about ADSC is that replicel posted awhile ago about the fda speeding the approval process. http://blogs.fda.gov/fdavoice/index....cine-products/

----------


## Alias123

> Why are you saying that the Swiss clinic is in Greece?  Are you saying that there is no ADSC clinic in Switzerland?


 yes thats what im saying. the reason people confuse it with a swiss clinic is because the swiss clinic have a collabration with a greek clinic ( might be same owner, same ethics etc, ) but the treatment itself is in greece.

----------


## zeos

> don't think so,
> i have just found a clinic in athens which is offering the ADSC  treatment(maybe this is an annex  of the  Swiss clinic in athens-we have to find this out)and collaborates with that laboratory(http://theracell.eu/)
> 
> we should contact theracell to get all the  addresses of clinics where we can get this treatment
> with which clinic are you in contact?


 
it's translated from greek to english(from a medical site) but i think it's understandable
what are your thoughts?


Hair Loss Treatment with stem cells

A new medical technique for hair regeneration using stem cells solves in men and women with thin hair and thinning. Treatment is based on the isolation of a large number of proteins, which are released from the stem cells of fat. Innovative therapy has been developed and applied atin Greece in collaboration with the Centre for Plastic Surgery "Cosmetic Restoration" and pioneer biotechnology company regenerative «Theracell». The isolation of stem cells from fat is a revolutionary art, with impressive results and new perspectives in aesthetic medicine. Recent clinical studies show that the regenerative properties of stem cell derivatives have applications in aesthetic medicine and more specifically to regenerate skin and hair regeneration. The skilled and innovative way of making it rich in growth factors 'extract' activates the regeneration and growth of hair, without trichothylakeion and stem cell transplantation.
It is scientifically proven that up to 80% of the action of the stem due to the secretion of a large number of biomolecules, such as growth factors, primarily, cytokines and various enzymes. Very specifically, the fat stem cells secrete more than 700 such proteins, which play an important role in tissue remodeling and regeneration. These proteins act at the site of application:
 Enabling other skin cells (fibroblasts)
 Motivating other cells to migrate to the site of injury
 At the same time protect skin cells from oxidative stress
The treatment process comprises four steps:
1 Collection of a very small amount of fat,
2 Transfer the fat in the laboratory under specific conditions
3 Activation of stem cells,
4 Topical application of treatment in four monthly sessions
Derivatives of activated stem cells after their application to the scalp, promote the growth of hair follicles. Also activate the stem cells already present in the region, so that they start producing new hair and improve existing ones. This technique provides a good, and possibly unique, reliable, scientific alternative for patients who either do not want or are not suitable for hair transplantation. Particularly good results are shown in fine and short hair, which indicates to lengthen and thickens. The application of the new technique is easy, with local anesthesia by skilled, well-educated on the subject physician.

Source: www.ygeia360.gr

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Also, an important note is that the Yale scientists discovered that the adipose precursor cells excrete 100 times as much of some growth factors as regular fat cells excrete. By injecting pure precursor cells (adipose derived stem cells) you are injecting 100 times more growth factors as you would if you just injected regular fat cells. So the key to this is to add the precursor fat cells, aka adipose derived stem cells so that you can bomb the follicles with the growth factors.


 I'm sure a lot of you have already read this:

Valerie Horsley, Associate Professor of Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology, hypothesized that adipocyte precursor cells were directly responsible for hair follicle growth by inducing the activation of follicular stem cells.

The team used various experimental methods, including histology and functional analysis, to visualize the interactions between the adipocyte lineage cells and the follicular stem cells. Several mouse models with genetic mutations at different stages of the adipogenesis pathway were used to see more specifically how adipocyte lineage cells contribute to the regulation of follicular stem cells. One mouse model with a defect in adipocyte precursor proliferation resulted in a significant decrease in hair growth levels. Transplanting wild-type adipocyte precursor cells into regions where such precursors were lacking in the mutant mice, however, prompted hair growth. Additional tests showed that adipocyte precursors drive platelet derived growth factor (PDGF) signaling, a process that induces the hair follicles initiation of the growth phase. The data collected from these experiments showed that adipocyte precursor cells are both necessary and sufficient to drive hair follicle growth.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hgs1989

> I'm sure a lot of you have already read this:
> 
> Valerie Horsley, Associate Professor of Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology, hypothesized that adipocyte precursor cells were directly responsible for hair follicle growth by inducing the activation of follicular stem cells.
> 
> The team used various experimental methods, including histology and functional analysis, to visualize the interactions between the adipocyte lineage cells and the follicular stem cells. Several mouse models with genetic mutations at different stages of the adipogenesis pathway were used to see more specifically how adipocyte lineage cells contribute to the regulation of follicular stem cells. One mouse model with a defect in adipocyte precursor proliferation resulted in a significant decrease in hair growth levels. Transplanting wild-type adipocyte precursor cells into regions where such precursors were lacking in the mutant mice, however, prompted hair growth. Additional tests showed that adipocyte precursors drive platelet derived growth factor (PDGF) signaling, a process that induces the hair follicles initiation of the growth phase. The data collected from these experiments showed that adipocyte precursor cells are both necessary and sufficient to drive hair follicle growth.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck


  why woudln't dr cole try it ? it is autologus so the need for fda approval is not necessary. take a look at those people 
http://www.balancehairrestoration.com . they are the ones that I got the papaer that started this thread. and I read on their website that they have a treatment using stormal vascular fraction ;which is rich in stem cells and growth factors ;as a an injection and also provide a topical growth factor secreted by your own cells. I guess it would be intresting to see the outcomes. maybe adding prp to the mix. I dont expect mund blowing results especially if it is marketed as a one time treatment. but with tweeking it might be successful from the first time.

----------


## hellouser

> why woudln't dr cole try it ? it is autologus so the need for fda approval is not necessary. take a look at those people 
> http://www.balancehairrestoration.com . they are the ones that I got the papaer that started this thread. and I read on their website that they have a treatment using stormal vascular fraction ;which is rich in stem cells and growth factors ;as a an injection and also provide a topical growth factor secreted by your own cells. I guess it would be intresting to see the outcomes. maybe adding prp to the mix. I dont expect mund blowing results especially if it is marketed as a one time treatment. but with tweeking it might be successful from the first time.


 Cole's making too much money off ACELL and other dubious treatments. He's not going to cannibalize sales just to potentially give you more hair. He's a businessman first... 'Doctor' is just his title.

----------


## Arashi

> HGS1989 check this out: since Jahoda is now using a construct that let's him add these same adipose derived stem cells to DP cells to create and enlarge follicles this means that if we get these adipose derived stem cells injections (Swiss clinic or greece clinic or Vienna clinic) we would be doing the same thing that Jahoda is doing, except that we would be doing it in our scalps whereas Jahoda is doing it in a petri-dish. 
> 
> Let me say it again. Check this out:
> 
> * Jahoda is adding these cells to dp cells so he can grow and enlarge follicles. 
> 
> * We would be putting these cells into our scalps to enlarge the existing follicles that are already in our scalps.
> 
> * This means we would be doing the same thing that Jahoda is doing except we would be doing it in the skin of our scalps instead of inside a petri-dish.
> ...


 Wow. You really never cease to amaze me jarjar. You compress so much nonsense into your sentences that someone should give you an award for it. I am not even sure where to start ... You seem to confuse jahodas idea about adding fat cells to his experiments with the idea of injecting stem cells. And really, 'enlarge follicles', haha, what makes you think jahoda wants bigger follicles ?

Adsc really have pretty much nothing to do with jahodas research. He is trying to figure out signaling between fat cells and follicles

----------


## hgs1989

> Wow


  you already said that you will stop arguing with him, yet here you ready for another god knows how much posts and quotes that will kill the thread. would you guys please stop it ?!

----------


## Arashi

> you already said that you will stop arguing with him, yet here you ready for another god knows how much posts and quotes that will kill the thread. would you guys please stop it ?!


  I never said I would stop arguing with jarjar. As long as he posts bs that can hurt people I will correct him.  I just said I didn't want to argue anymore about off topic posts about how he scared Dr Aaron Gardner away.

Jarjar has a history of trying to push people to do experimental unproven treatments so he can watch from his chair how others take risks for him and put their money on the line to see if it works.  But if he does that with posting lies,  like he does here,  he needs to be corrected.

----------


## gainspotter

> you already said that you will stop arguing with him, yet here you ready for another god knows how much posts and quotes that will kill the thread. would you guys please stop it ?!


 Not that much else to talk about anyway

----------


## Swooping

Nameless did you give prostemics a call already?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Cole's making too much money off ACELL and other dubious treatments. He's not going to cannibalize sales just to potentially give you more hair. He's a businessman first... 'Doctor' is just his title.


 Giving men, and in some cases women the maximum amount of hair possible is the dream of every hair restoration doctor I know. It's a win win, for the doctor and the patient.  BTW, ACell's no money maker.  It's expensive and we give too much of it away. We know it's effective and repair patients in particular benefit from both ACell and PRP.

Chuck

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> why woudln't dr cole try it?


 Safety and effectiveness....  Dr. Cole is looking into it.

Chuck
Dr. Cole's office

----------


## nameless

> Wow. You really never cease to amaze me jarjar. You compress so much nonsense into your sentences that someone should give you an award for it. I am not even sure where to start ... You seem to confuse jahodas idea about adding fat cells to his experiments with the idea of injecting stem cells. And really, 'enlarge follicles', haha, what makes you think jahoda wants bigger follicles ?
> 
> Adsc really have pretty much nothing to do with jahodas research. He is trying to figure out signaling between fat cells and follicles


 
* Gardner said Jahoda will add fat cells rather than growth factors themselves in his efforts to grow hair. Yale says that in mice the "adipose precursor cells" are the cells that signal follicles to grow hair. The human equivalent to adipose precursor cells would probably be adipose derived stem cells. Hence, Gardner is likely talking about ADSCs because those are the fat cells that likely excrete the signals to the follicles to grow hair. Also, Yale said that the precursor cells produce 100 times the amount of some growth factors as generic fat cells do, 

* I don't recall seeing where Gardner said that Jahoda will try to figure out the signaling between fat cells and follicles. Although it doesn't really matter because Gardner said Jahoda will use fat cells instead anyway, please provide a link to the post where Gardner said Jahoda is going to try to figure out the signaling between fat cells and follicles. Myself, I see no point for Jahoda to waste time figuring out these signals unless Jahoda intends to add the growth factors themselves, which Gardner says Jahoda is not going to do. Why bother trying to figure out the signals between fat cells and follicles if you're going to use the cells themselves? If you use the cells themselves the cells will take care of adding the correct signalling so you don't need to figure it out. 

* Lab grown follicles don't start out as fully formed follicles. If they started out as fully formed follicles you wouldn't have researchers trying to create follicles. They start out as cells and then they form into follicles. And they also start out smaller and get bigger as part of their formation. 

* If I said Jahoda would "inject" the ADSCs into his mix I meant to say "add" ADSCs. No biggie. You're making a big deal of nothing. Obviously I was comparing Jahoda adding ADSCs to his mix and us injecting these cells into our scalps so I used the word "inject" where I meant to say "add" because I was thinking about both ends of that equation at the same time and I inadvertently transposed the word "inject" for the word "add." I can't believe you would actually make a big deal of this. I guess you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for my grammar errors because you're feeling pissy about me pointing out how you proclaimed that the 2014 hair loss congress researchers solved the trichogenicity problem and how you accused needhairasap of being in cahoots with the Pilox folks. LOL!

----------


## nameless

> you already said that you will stop arguing with him, yet here you ready for another god knows how much posts and quotes that will kill the thread. would you guys please stop it ?!


 hgs you have to remember that this is the same Arishi who first said that the 2014 hair loss congress researchers solved the trichogenicity problem and now says he never said that, and accused needhairasap of being in cahoots with the Pilox marketers to cheat us, and other mistaken concepts. Of course he can't stick to his own assurances. He doesn't get much of anything right. So he said he would stop attacks and of course that means that he is going to continue attacks.

----------


## nameless

> Nameless did you give prostemics a call already?


 No I haven't. But I have been talking to the European clinics who are starting to use pure ADSC injections. And in some cases they're even culturing the cells. What do you think about this Swooping?

I asked about them giving a group discount and they said they would be open to the idea of a group discount. 

I'm a little concerned about the ADSCs (compared to AAPE) because ADSCs are larger and more solid than AAPE so the cells might not get into every nook and cranny compared to the AAPE but once injected the cells might continuously excrete the desired growth factors so the follicles might get continuously bathed in these desired growth factors whereas with AAPE you might need injections once a week or so at least in the beginning. What do you think?

----------


## nameless

> I never said I would stop arguing with jarjar. As long as he posts bs that can hurt people I will correct him.  I just said I didn't want to argue anymore about off topic posts about how he scared Dr Aaron Gardner away.
> 
> Jarjar has a history of trying to push people to do experimental unproven treatments so he can watch from his chair how others take risks for him and put their money on the line to see if it works.  But if he does that with posting lies,  like he does here,  he needs to be corrected.


 I didn't scare Dr. Gardner away. After careful analysis I determined that you and your dud bud ssudsurfin (sp) scared him away. He got tired of ssudsurfin's lengthy posts and your constant mistakes. And he didn't even see your silly-@ss accusation post that needhairasap is in cahoots with the Pilox marketers to cheat bald people. LOL! I think that if he saw your post about the 2014 hair loss congress researchers solving all of the trichogencity issues he would probably want to know what you're talking about. 

And if you're going to correct mistakes will you start by correcting your own mistakes? Will you admit that it was a silly and paranoid mistake for you to accuse needhairasap of being in cahoots with Pilox marketeers to cheat bald guys and will you admit that it was stupid of you "assume" that the 2014 hair loss congress researchers had solved all of the trichogencity problems?

----------


## nameless

> Wow. You really never cease to amaze me jarjar. You compress so much nonsense into your sentences that someone should give you an award for it. I am not even sure where to start ... You seem to confuse jahodas idea about adding fat cells to his experiments with the idea of injecting stem cells. And really, 'enlarge follicles', haha, what makes you think jahoda wants bigger follicles ?
> 
> Adsc really have pretty much nothing to do with jahodas research. He is trying to figure out signaling between fat cells and follicles


 I'm not confusing anything. Jahoda adding ADSC to his cell mixes to create laboratory follicles is the same as the Swiss company adding ADSCs to our scalps to grow follicles in our scalps. In both cases ADSCs are being added to grow follicles. And of course when follicles are grown in labs, enlargement is part of that process, so of course follicles are being enlarged in the lab process of growing follicles. They start out as cells and from that they form and grow into (hopefully) full follicles. And of course when Gardner talks about adding fat he is talking about ADSCs because ADSCs are the cells that Yale said were the correct cells. In the mouse world they're called "adipose precursor cells and in the human world they're called adipose derived stem cells. They equate. And adipose precursor cells are the cells that emit the signals to prompt follicle growth. Check this out:


http://news.yale.edu/2011/09/01/yale...-its-time-grow

"Adipose precursor cells"

----------


## Arashi

> * Gardner said Jahoda will add fat cells rather than growth factors themselves in his efforts to grow hair.


 You just keep on confusing things !! Dr Gardner said that there are several inherent problems with growth factors, like steep production costs, difficulties to produce and short half life. Therefore, he concludes, it would make more sense to try to induce the scalp to secrete growth factors as an alternative to injecting them directly. He never said anything about effectiveness, just that adding growth factors themselves doesn't make sense to him. See: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post174467




> * I don't recall seeing where Gardner said that Jahoda will try to figure out the signaling between fat cells and follicles.


 That's because you were too busy firing stupid questions at him. If you would have read his ANSWERS you would have realized that his research has NOTHING to do with those injections you are interested in. He even posted a link to Jahoda's work on fat cells. I'm sure you haven't read it. https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post174908




> please provide a link to the post where Gardner said Jahoda is going to try to figure out the signaling between fat cells and follicles.


 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0059811
https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post174908




> Myself, I see no point for Jahoda to waste time figuring out these signals


 LOL, yeah you know everything so much better than Jahoda. I'm still waiting for your first paper, that should be interesting, LOL  :Smile:   But of course his research is VERY important because as you can read in his paper, it turns out fat cells (not just those stem cells or growth factors you are interested in, but really the WHOLE adipose LAYER) turn out to play a role in follicle development.




> * Lab grown follicles don't start out as fully formed follicles. If they started out as fully formed follicles you wouldn't have researchers trying to create follicles. They start out as cells and then they form into follicles. And they also start out smaller and get bigger as part of their formation.


 LOL, nice story bro. But you miss the point of course, as usual. Jahoda is interested in restoring inductivity, not in creating 'larger' follicles like you suggest, haha.




> If I said Jahoda would "inject" the ADSCs into his mix I meant to say "add" ADSCs. No biggie. You're making a big deal of nothing. Obviously I was comparing Jahoda adding ADSCs to his mix and us injecting these cells into our scalps so I used the word "inject" where I meant to say "add" because I was thinking about both ends of that equation at the same time and I inadvertently transposed the word "inject" for the word "add." I can't believe you would actually make a big deal of this. I guess you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for my grammar errors because you're feeling pissy about me pointing out how you proclaimed that the 2014 hair loss congress researchers solved the trichogenicity problem and how you accused needhairasap of being in cahoots with the Pilox folks. LOL!


 No, you are throwing in the "Jahoda uses this stuff too !!" argument, to seduce people into trying this for you, while you can watch from your relaxing chair, without any risks or costs how it works out. You tell people lies in the hope they will try it for you.

----------


## Arashi

> hgs you have to remember that this is the same Arishi who first said that the 2014 hair loss congress researchers solved the trichogenicity problem and now says he never said that, and accused


 How many times did you  tell that lie now ? I've stopped counting, most be a dozen times. And EVERY SINGLE TIME I ask you for the quote in which I supposedly would have said that, you just don't respond.

----------


## Arashi

> I didn't scare Dr. Gardner away. After careful analysis I determined that you and your dud bud ssudsurfin (sp) scared him away. He got tired of ssudsurfin's lengthy posts and your constant mistakes.


 LOL. Just quote ONE mistake from me ! I've quoted several post of you in which you showed you didn't understand what you were talking about in that thread, that your questions where silly at best and that you insulted Dr Gardner. And instead of promising to better your life, you now start to make up accusations out of thin air. I was thinking about asking dr Gardner to come back next year after the conference but I now realize it's useless cause you won't better your life and you will fire 10 stupid questions in a row at him again, some of course with insults where you tell him how to do his job. So he'll be gone in notime and I'd be left feeling ashamed I even asked him to come here.

----------


## joachim

although i totally agree with you arashi about jarjar and his nonsense, i have to say, we shouldn't discard the idea about the fat cells and growth factors yet. indeed, i think the whole growth factor stuff has big potential if used correctly. it's like histogen with the difference that it could be used today. histogen on the other hand probably will never be released because of incompentence and missing funds.

so whatever jarjar investigates and tries to set up in terms of fat stem cells i appreciate it.

----------


## nameless

> although i totally agree with you arashi about jarjar and his nonsense, i have to say, we shouldn't discard the idea about the fat cells and growth factors yet. indeed, i think the whole growth factor stuff has big potential if used correctly. it's like histogen with the difference that it could be used today. histogen on the other hand probably will never be released because of incompentence and missing funds.
> 
> so whatever jarjar investigates and tries to set up in terms of fat stem cells i appreciate it.


 On the one hand you say you agree with me and then on the other hand you say that what I'm saying is nonsense. What a laugh!

Since the only positions I've taken is that adipose derived stem cells and their growth factors (AAPE) can reverse hair loss, and since you yourself say you agree with me on these issues, then it makes absolutely no sense for you to say that the things I'm saying are nonsense. Either you agree with me or you don't. 

I think that the thing with you is that you cow tow to Arishi but you know I'm right so you say that you agree with me but you also soften that by saying what I'm saying is nonsense. What a laugh. 

You need to make up your mind son. You sound like a PMS female who doesn't know what she thinks.

----------


## nameless

> You just keep on confusing things !! Dr Gardner said that there are several inherent problems with growth factors, like steep production costs, difficulties to produce and short half life. Therefore, he concludes, it would make more sense to try to induce the scalp to secrete growth factors as an alternative to injecting them directly. He never said anything about effectiveness, just that adding growth factors themselves doesn't make sense to him. See: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post174467
> 
> 
> That's because you were too busy firing stupid questions at him. If you would have read his ANSWERS you would have realized that his research has NOTHING to do with those injections you are interested in. He even posted a link to Jahoda's work on fat cells. I'm sure you haven't read it. https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post174908
> 
> 
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0059811
> https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post174908
> 
> ...


 * So f'm what if Jahoda has more than one reason for not using growth factors. I know Gardner said that but I didn't feel like typing out all of his reasons. It doesn't matter what all the reasons are - the point is that they don't want to use growth factors so they will use the fat cells instead. That was his point. 

* No you have got it wrong, as usual, since the reason why I don't recall if Gardner said that Jahoda will try to figure out the signaling is because even if he did say it, it doesn't make any difference since the point is that Jahoda is going to use the cells instead of the growth factors produced by the cells. So it doesn't make any difference if he said that Jahoda will figure out the growth factors involved in hair loss since he isn't going to use the growth factors specifically anyway. 

* I stand by my statement that it IS a waste of time for Jahoda to go through the exercise of finding out which growth factors prompt hair growth since he isn't going to use the growth factors themselves anyway. I could understand him wanting to map-out all the growth factors involved in hair growth if he wanted to add only those specific growth factors to his mix to prompt hair growth, but since he's going to add the cells that produce those growth factors instead his exercise to map-out the correct growth factors is needless. If he wants to waste his time mapping those growth factors out then he can do so for all I care, but after he goes through the exercise of mapping out the growth factor that prompt hair growth he still isn't going to use only those specific growth factors to grow hair. Instead he will simply add the cells that produce those growth factors and let those cells do the job of adding those growth factors into the mix for him. If he does map all of that growth factor activity out then he'll be examining specific growth factor activity in the micro-sense even though he has no intention of using that information for a practical purpose, and even though there's already a macro-sense way to get the correct growth factors into the mix without figuring out what growth factors are needed. 

* So now you are speculating that there are other things in the adipose tissue besides these cells that prompt hair growth even though the Yale scientists said that this one group of cells (adipose precursor cells) is sufficient to activate hair growth. Maybe you should call Yale and tell them how wrong they are and how you have new information for them that other parts of fat tissue besides those cells are also required to prompt hair growth. What a laugh. You're an idiot. You are incapable of transposing information from one context to another. Here read this moron:

http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(11)00817-8

It says that these cells are sufficient to activate the hair growth process, fool. That means nothing else is requred. Go away!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Safety and effectiveness....  Dr. Cole is looking into it.
> 
> Chuck
> Dr. Cole's office


 
Is he going to be running trials of his own with this? or how is he going about this?

FTL

----------


## Arashi

> * So f'm what if Jahoda has more than one reason for not using growth factors. I know Gardner said that but I didn't feel like typing out all of his reasons. It doesn't matter what all the reasons are - the point is that they don't want to use growth factors so they will use the fat cells instead. That was his point.


 No. See, that's what you misunderstand. When Gardner and Jahoda are talking about fat cells, they're not specifically talking about stem cells (which can secrete growth factors). They're talking about the WHOLE fat layer and how it's related to follicle development (really, just read that link that Gardner posted)




> * I stand by my statement that it IS a waste of time for Jahoda to go through the exercise of finding out which growth factors prompt hair growth


 Yeah that's you're problem. You think you know better than one of the smartest scientists in the world. The irony here is that you don't even understand what he's researching.




> So now you are speculating that there are other things in the adipose tissue besides these cells that prompt hair growth


 I'm not speculating. Just read Jahoda's paper.




> even though the Yale scientists said that this one group of cells (adipose precursor cells) is sufficient to activate hair growth.


 LOL, if that were true, then what are you even waiting for ? You're cured man !! LOL





> http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(11)00817-8
> 
> It says that these cells are sufficient to activate the hair growth process, fool. That means nothing else is requred. Go away!


 Haha. You quote some study on mice and then you claim  that *I* was the one who wrongly stated hairloss was cured ? Can I quote to this specific post from now on that you state that hairloss is cured then ? Man, you fail to understand that mice DP cells can be expanded retaining 100% inductivity since ages. They can grow a thick layer of hair on bald mice easy as that. Unfortunately it's a whole different story for us humans.

----------


## caddarik79

http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells

swa this, while searching for other clinics offering stem celles therapy or transplant!

----------


## Arashi

> although i totally agree with you arashi about jarjar and his nonsense, i have to say, we shouldn't discard the idea about the fat cells and growth factors yet. indeed, i think the whole growth factor stuff has big potential if used correctly. it's like histogen with the difference that it could be used today. histogen on the other hand probably will never be released because of incompentence and missing funds.


 I'm not saying it is impossible to regain some hairs via stem cells (secreting growth factors). I'm just calling JarJar on his BS, he makes it sound like dr Gardner and Jahoda are into all this. They're not.

I've talked to some knowledgable people who have been experimenting with growth factors, they also doubt that there's something here. There's no real , credible scientific proof for all of this. And stem cells in general have proven to be beneficial in animal models but when applied to humans, pretty much all experiments failed or had VERY limited successes. Current thinking is that stem cells just travel to different parts of the body after injection and rarely stay in the area where they were injected, or simply convert into other tissue like skin.

So, all this is highly experimental, costs are very steep, there's no real credible scientific proof and there are risks associated especially with extraction of the fat. But again, I'm not saying it's impossible to regain some hairs, who knows ...

----------


## joachim

> I'm not saying it is impossible to regain some hairs via stem cells (secreting growth factors). I'm just calling JarJar on his BS, he makes it sound like dr Gardner and Jahoda are into all this. They're not.
> 
> I've talked to some knowledgable people who have been experimenting with growth factors, they also doubt that there's something here. There's no real , credible scientific proof for all of this. And stem cells in general have proven to be beneficial in animal models but when applied to humans, pretty much all experiments failed or had VERY limited successes. Current thinking is that stem cells just travel to different parts of the body after injection and rarely stay in the area where they were injected, or simply convert into other tissue like skin.
> 
> So, all this is highly experimental, costs are very steep and there are risks associated especially with extraction of the fat. But again, I'm not saying it's impossible to regain some hairs, I just dont know


 agreed.  i too think that growth factors alone is not the final cure. i think it can give boosts like fin or minox or hopefully a bit better. when applied multiple times, there's maybe a chance to give a lot better results. the price however is, e.g. from the dr. heinrich clinic, is a joke. for such an easy treatment paying thousands of euros without a real proof for success. and you need to that multiple times. but if we see some proof and good results in the near future i would even spend that money.

----------


## hgs1989

> I'm not saying it is impossible to regain some hairs via stem cells (secreting growth factors). I'm just calling JarJar on his BS, he makes it sound like dr Gardner and Jahoda are into all this. They're not.
> 
> I've talked to some knowledgable people who have been experimenting with growth factors, they also doubt that there's something here. There's no real , credible scientific proof for all of this. And stem cells in general have proven to be beneficial in animal models but when applied to humans, pretty much all experiments failed or had VERY limited successes. Current thinking is that stem cells just travel to different parts of the body after injection and rarely stay in the area where they were injected, or simply convert into other tissue like skin.
> 
> So, all this is highly experimental, costs are very steep, there's no real credible scientific proof and there are risks associated especially with extraction of the fat. But again, I'm not saying it's impossible to regain some hairs, who knows ...


 but the injection of growth factors certainly would work.

----------


## nameless

> No. See, that's what you misunderstand. When Gardner and Jahoda are talking about fat cells, they're not specifically talking about stem cells (which can secrete growth factors). They're talking about the WHOLE fat layer and how it's related to follicle development (really, just read that link that Gardner posted)
> 
> I don't know the extent of Jahoda's interest in fat. I do know that he has an interest in fat. It doesn't make a big difference if he's interested in all fat tissue, some fat tissue, or just the ADSCs because in any case if he uses fat tissue he will be using ADSCs since they are part of fat tissue. 
> 
> And for all we know if he uses other parts of fat along with the ADSCs and finds success it will have only been the ADSCs which prompted the success. 
> 
> 
> Haha. You quote some study on mice and then you claim  that *I* was the one who wrongly stated hairloss was cured ? Can I quote to this specific post from now on that you state that hairloss is cured then ? Man, you fail to understand that mice DP cells can be expanded retaining 100% inductivity since ages. They can grow a thick layer of hair on bald mice easy as that. Unfortunately it's a whole different story for us humans.


 You knock me for talking about a Yale study involving mice even as you brandish Jahoda's interest in fat tissue rather than just ADSCs. But the post in which Aaron Gardner talked about Jahoda's interest in fat refers also to a study involving mice so what are you whining about me quoting from a study involving mice when you are doing the same thing?

----------


## FearTheLoss

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17084

Seems Dr. Yates may be starting to do this?

FTL

----------


## nameless

> but the injection of growth factors certainly would work.


 I agree.

But I think that the growth factors would have to be injected frequently and that means frequent trips to a clinic in Europe. Ouch. 

But I also have some concerns about the cells as I've indicated. I question whether or not they would end up where you would want them.

----------


## nameless

> https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17084
> 
> Seems Dr. Yates may be starting to do this?
> 
> FTL


 Dr. Cole is starting to look into it too. Although they do not intend to use pure ADSCs rather they will use SVF which is fat tissue that has some parts strained out leaving ADSCs and some other things.

----------


## FearTheLoss

watch the video, he talks about it briefly...could be so..although I haven't really been following this.

----------


## nameless

> No. See, that's what you misunderstand. When Gardner and Jahoda are talking about fat cells, they're not specifically talking about stem cells (which can secrete growth factors). They're talking about the WHOLE fat layer and how it's related to follicle development (really, just read that link that Gardner posted).


 I don't feel like reading the link that Dr. Gardner posted. The point I gathered is that Dr. Gardner/Jahoda are interested in fat, including ADSCs. And if you yourself are saying that Jahoda is interested in the "WHOLE" fat layer than that would include ADSCs so that means you yourself are saying that Jahoda is interested in ADSCs. 

Also, Gardner talks about adding fat CELLS here:

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...t=16284&page=8

Yea Gardner is talking about fat cells. How do I know he's talking about fat cells? Because he said fat cells. That's how. It's obvious that at the time Gardner posted that Jahoda study Jahoda had not yet worked out his plan for fat cells. You know the Jahoda study I'm talking about...the Jahoda MOUSE fat study you brandish even though you knock others for brandishing mouse studies which indicates that Jahoda sees a larger role for fat tissue than just the ADSCs, but the recent post by Aaron's indicates they are planning to add just cells (not all fat tissue) to their cultures and they are still finalizing things so for all we know they will decide to specifically use ADSCs. This appears to be an evolving situation because now Gardner is talking about adding "cells" to the culture whereas before he appeared to be interested in the entirety of a fat layer.

----------


## hgs1989

> Current thinking is *that stem cells just travel to different parts of the body after injection and rarely stay in the area where they were injected*, or simply convert into other tissue like skin.
> 
> So, all this is highly experimental, costs are very steep, there's no real credible scientific proof and *there are risks associated especially with extraction of the fat*. But again, I'm not saying it's impossible to regain some hairs, who knows ...


 
1.then why replicel is working. if they do travel, then several injections might be needed. the cost is crazy to think of trying it.  
2.what are the risks associated with fat extraction ?

----------


## hgs1989

> https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17084
> 
> Seems Dr. Yates may be starting to do this?
> 
> FTL


 would be interesting to see a standalone injection especially that he mixes SVF with PRP.

----------


## nameless

> I've talked to some knowledgable people who have been experimenting with growth factors, they also doubt that there's something here. There's no real , credible scientific proof for all of this.


 What a laugh! 

Histogen studies and AAPE studies offered substantial proof that the growth factors do grow hair. You're an idiot.

----------


## joachim

> On the one hand you say you agree with me and then on the other hand you say that what I'm saying is nonsense. What a laugh!
> 
> Since the only positions I've taken is that adipose derived stem cells and their growth factors (AAPE) can reverse hair loss, and since you yourself say you agree with me on these issues, then it makes absolutely no sense for you to say that the things I'm saying are nonsense. Either you agree with me or you don't. 
> 
> I think that the thing with you is that you cow tow to Arishi but you know I'm right so you say that you agree with me but you also soften that by saying what I'm saying is nonsense. What a laugh. 
> 
> You need to make up your mind son. You sound like a PMS female who doesn't know what she thinks.


 jarjar, it's relatively easy to explain:

although i don't want to be rude, there's almost no way to say that in a nice way.
not all, but most posts from you tend to be nonsense. in general, 90% of your posts are wordfights with other members anyway. so only 10% of it have the potential to be useful.
i think 98 out of 100 forum members know you as an annoying forum member and will probably agree that most of your posts are BS. i mean, alone the fact that you tell other people about your high IQ and how intelligent you are, that alone says everything. i think you are a very special kind of person who lives a bit in his own world of fairytales and you still think that everybody else is wrong and you are the only one who knows best. most people know you from other forums too (e.g. at hairsite where you are named "jarjarbinx"). 
but hey, i don't care that much. nobody is perfect. and i learned to deal with that. i'm totally ok with you as forum member, even when you post nonsense. the only thing i don't get is the fact that you really never learn. you still think that you are totally right and keep on fighting against arashi and others with laughable arguments. even if 100 professors would tell you that you're wrong, you would believe you're right.
but i'm not going to fight that much with you. i don't have the time and energy for that.

on the other side, i appreciate it when you come up with good ideas. regarding the fat stem cell story i think you could be right here. there's some potential with such a treatment. so if you can find out more about those stuff, and even find a doctor who is willing to give us such an advanced treatment, then that's very good. most uf us, i think, discarded the adipose stem cell treatment too soon, which i think is sad. so i'm glad you investigate a bit more on that. put you should save your energy and concentrate on that, rather than fighting with other forum members.

keep cool

----------


## Sogeking

> jarjar, it's relatively easy to explain:
> 
> although i don't want to be rude, there's almost no way to say that in a nice way.
> not all, but most posts from you tend to be nonsense. in general, 90% of your posts are wordfights with other members anyway. so only 10% of it have the potential to be useful.
> i think 98 out of 100 forum members know you as an annoying forum member and will probably agree that most of your posts are BS. i mean, alone the fact that you tell other people about your high IQ and how intelligent you are, that alone says everything. i think you are a very special kind of person who lives a bit in his own world of fairytales and you still think that everybody else is wrong and you are the only one who knows best. most people know you from other forums too (e.g. at hairsite where you are named "jarjarbinx"). 
> but hey, i don't care that much. nobody is perfect. and i learned to deal with that. i'm totally ok with you as forum member, even when you post nonsense. the only thing i don't get is the fact that you really never learn. you still think that you are totally right and keep on fighting against arashi and others with laughable arguments. even if 100 professors would tell you that you're wrong, you would believe you're right.
> but i'm not going to fight that much with you. i don't have the time and energy for that.
> 
> on the other side, i appreciate it when you come up with good ideas. regarding the fat stem cell story i think you could be right here. there's some potential with such a treatment. so if you can find out more about those stuff, and even find a doctor who is willing to give us such an advanced treatment, then that's very good. most uf us, i think, discarded the adipose stem cell treatment too soon, which i think is sad. so i'm glad you investigate a bit more on that. put you should save your energy and concentrate on that, rather than fighting with other forum members.
> ...


 Who will be held accountable if something happens to those who proceed with AAPE stem cells treatment and get sick. By get sick I mean any kind of stem cell can in theory turn into tumor. 

Besides will these labs guarantee a certain success rate and the quality of their product? How can we know for sure that what we are getting are truly fat stem cells?
Besides this is not proven at all. That is why every new treatment goes through certain channels and gets bought by clinics, hospitals, etc.

This is why people don't take jarjar seriously when he proposed to open a clinic on Bahamas or Bermuda, whatever... This is a really dubious practice. Regulatory agencies are put into place to protect the user and customer. I know it is popular to shit on EMA and FDA but they are there for a reason...

----------


## joachim

> Who will be held accountable if something happens to those who proceed with AAPE stem cells treatment and get sick. By get sick I mean any kind of stem cell can in theory turn into tumor. 
> 
> Besides will these labs guarantee a certain success rate and the quality of their product? How can we know for sure that what we are getting are truly fat stem cells?
> Besides this is not proven at all. That is why every new treatment goes through certain channels and gets bought by clinics, hospitals, etc.
> 
> This is why people don't take jarjar seriously when he proposed to open a clinic on Bahamas or Bermuda, whatever... This is a really dubious practice. Regulatory agencies are put into place to protect the user and customer. I know it is popular to shit on EMA and FDA but they are there for a reason...


 i know, it's going to be difficult. we have no proof that it works at all. no serious before/after pics. we only know that there are some docs and clinics who offer such similar treatments.

regarding safety i'm not that concerned. fat cells extraction (lipo) and injection in other areas of the body is practiced for many years. the question now is what happens when you extract the growth factors separately and inject them back. when further culturing and multiplication of cells and growth factors come into the game then the situation is even more difficult.

----------


## nameless

> Who will be held accountable if something happens to those who proceed with AAPE stem cells treatment and get sick. By get sick I mean any kind of stem cell can in theory turn into tumor. 
> 
> Besides will these labs guarantee a certain success rate and the quality of their product? How can we know for sure that what we are getting are truly fat stem cells?
> Besides this is not proven at all. That is why every new treatment goes through certain channels and gets bought by clinics, hospitals, etc.
> 
> This is why people don't take jarjar seriously when he proposed to open a clinic on Bahamas or Bermuda, whatever... This is a really dubious practice. Regulatory agencies are put into place to protect the user and customer. I know it is popular to shit on EMA and FDA but they are there for a reason...


 Ok so then wait 10 years for a treatment.

----------


## nameless

> i know, it's going to be difficult. we have no proof that it works at all. no serious before/after pics. we only know that there are some docs and clinics who offer such similar treatments.
> 
> regarding safety i'm not that concerned. fat cells extraction (lipo) and injection in other areas of the body is practiced for many years. the question now is what happens when you extract the growth factors separately and inject them back. when further culturing and multiplication of cells and growth factors come into the game then the situation is even more difficult.


 AAPE = nature's version of Histogen's HSC which has gone through some studies.

----------


## nameless

> jarjar, it's relatively easy to explain:
> 
> although i don't want to be rude, there's almost no way to say that in a nice way.
> not all, but most posts from you tend to be nonsense. in general, 90% of your posts are wordfights with other members anyway. so only 10% of it have the potential to be useful.
> i think 98 out of 100 forum members know you as an annoying forum member and will probably agree that most of your posts are BS. i mean, alone the fact that you tell other people about your high IQ and how intelligent you are, that alone says everything. i think you are a very special kind of person who lives a bit in his own world of fairytales and you still think that everybody else is wrong and you are the only one who knows best. most people know you from other forums too (e.g. at hairsite where you are named "jarjarbinx"). 
> but hey, i don't care that much. nobody is perfect. and i learned to deal with that. i'm totally ok with you as forum member, even when you post nonsense. the only thing i don't get is the fact that you really never learn. you still think that you are totally right and keep on fighting against arashi and others with laughable arguments. even if 100 professors would tell you that you're wrong, you would believe you're right.
> but i'm not going to fight that much with you. i don't have the time and energy for that.
> 
> on the other side, i appreciate it when you come up with good ideas. regarding the fat stem cell story i think you could be right here. there's some potential with such a treatment. so if you can find out more about those stuff, and even find a doctor who is willing to give us such an advanced treatment, then that's very good. most uf us, i think, discarded the adipose stem cell treatment too soon, which i think is sad. so i'm glad you investigate a bit more on that. put you should save your energy and concentrate on that, rather than fighting with other forum members.
> ...


 
Peace Joachin. 

But I gotta say that I love your non-denial denial. 

Just so you know, I have basically asserted 3 things:

1. Since Nigam lives in a country where stem cell culture and implantation into humans is lawful, and he's willing to do it, he is probably our best bet for early stem cell treatment. Now, I recently changed my mind about this because he is no longer allowed to do this legally in India since India has changed their laws regards to stem cell culture. Before I was balancing the negative things against Dr. Nigam with the positivism that he WAS probably our soonest path to cultured stem cell therapy. But now that he can no longer do cultured stem cell treatments I think that it would be a mistake to go to India to be treated by Dr. Nigam.

2. AAPE would almost certainly be a lot better treatment than anything else obtainable today.

3. ADSCs *might" be a better treatment than almost anything else obtainable today except for AAPE. I'm unsure about ADSCs because after they're injected I don't know if they end up where we need them to go, and stay there.

----------


## hgs1989

> the question now is what happens when you extract the growth factors separately and inject them back.


 regarding injecting growth factors,histogen showed the safety of such practice already. prp is basically your own concentrated growth factors HGF in prp is not different from HGF from a cultured cell medium, it is simple chemistry. many cosmetic products include such growth factors. they are widely used. if something wrong can come out , it would have been reported already. the efficacy of injecting growth factors and signaling proteins is really out of question. in the paper that started the thread, the injection were 1 to 2 weeks for a prolonged period(cant remember I guess 6 weeks ) . that is probably why no serious pictures from clinics came out and they actually inject fat stem cells not the protein extract. they offer it as a one time treatment where it should be applied systematically. when histogen comes out, if the price is too high and it is offered as one time treatment, it will work moderately for many people.many hair topicals also exist today that contain growth factors, but I doubt the concentration is of any benefit at all. not to mention stability of such proteins. just google growth factors one by one with the word hair. you will find studies on mice and on in vitro human cells. you will find studies showing the role of each one in the hair cycle in human hair. again we need this to e done and looked into by professionals. AAPE is one such product. now it doesn't have to AAPE from this brand it can be any ****tail of growth factors from cultured media.

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## Arashi

> when further culturing and multiplication of cells and growth factors come into the game then the situation is even more difficult.


 Exactly.  Who knows how much of the original dna is still present in the cultured cells.  That's really my main problem with jarjar : he pushes others towards these experimental therapies,  tells them they're all safe and effective and let's them take the risks for him.  In the years I have been following these forums jarjar has been one of the few members who didn't even have one surgery or experimental treatment himself.

----------


## Arashi

> . just google growth factors one by one with the word hair. 
> .


 Just Google growth factors and cancer

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## hgs1989

> Just Google growth factors and cancer


 we know about wnts and SHH as certainly carcinogenic. others are called promoters or having an increased risk of causing cancer or cancer promoters. meaning that if you have a tumor these GF will promote the growth of tumors as they will promote the proliferation of regular cells. if we starting to avoid something because of the risk, then we would avoid using mobile phones, processed food, eating meat, going to the gym, going under the sun when it is a shiny beautiful day, .... etc.  it is just a risk.heck even dht can cause prostate cancer. many don't want to lower it for hair and sexuality despite this fact.  again prp is safe and histogen is safe. PRP is widely used now in hair transplants. nothing negative came out of it so far. the growth factors in prp are the same from any other human source. I pointed out that GFs are already in use in cosmetics. IGF is been injected by body builders. you would expect to see many with cancer.  the debate can go for a long time but I am not willing to argue this cancer thing.I just want professionals to work on this stuff for hair regeneration and we will find out. so far I haven't seen anything discouraging.

----------


## Arashi

> we know about wnts and SHH as certainly carcinogenic. others are called promoters or having an increased risk of causing cancer or cancer promoters. meaning that if you have a tumor these GF will promote the growth of tumors as they will promote the proliferation of regular cells. if we starting to avoid something because of the risk, then we would avoid using mobile phones, processed food, eating meat, going to the gym, going under the sun when it is a shiny beautiful day, .... etc.  it is just a risk.heck even dht can cause prostate cancer. many don't want to lower it for hair and sexuality despite this fact.  again prp is safe and histogen is safe. PRP is widely used now in hair transplants. nothing negative came out of it so far. the growth factors in prp are the same from any other human source. I pointed out that GFs are already in use in cosmetics. IGF is been injected by body builders. you would expect to see many with cancer.  the debate can go for a long time but I am not willing to argue this cancer thing.I just want professionals to work on this stuff for hair regeneration and we will find out. so far I haven't seen anything discouraging.


 I am not saying you will get cancer from growth factors.  Just that growth factors in general are closely related to cancer. I would be very careful in general here. Comparing injecting growth factors to eating meat is of course nonsense.

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## hgs1989

> I am not saying you will get cancer from growth factors.  Just that growth factors in general are closely related to cancer. I would be very careful in general here. Comparing injecting growth factors to eating meat is of course nonsense.


 I am not comparing eating meats to injecting growth factors, but  ignoring their potentials just because they are closely related to cancer is also nonsense. I gave these examples to show how we are doing stuff daily that improve the quality of our lives while they are also closely related to cancer.

----------


## nameless

> Exactly.  Who knows how much of the original dna is still present in the cultured cells.  That's really my main problem with jarjar : he pushes others towards these experimental therapies,  tells them they're all safe and effective and let's them take the risks for him.  In the years I have been following these forums jarjar has been one of the few members who didn't even have one surgery or experimental treatment himself.


 
You're misquoting and mischaracterizing the things I'm saying. I never said that all of the ideas I'm looking at are definitely safe and effective.  

1) I used to say that since the country Nigam resides in, India, allows doctors to culture and implant stem cells, plus Dr. Nigam is willing to do so, we should not alienate him because he could be our only chance at early access to unapproved treatments. I never once said that Nigam has not done anything he shouldn't have done. As a matter of fact, I have said that he has done some questionable things in the past. That aside, I no longer think that there's any advantage to protecting bridges between us and Dr. Nigam since it's no longer legal to culture and inject stem cells in India. Plus such treatments are starting to show up in other places anyway. I have changed my position on Dr. Nigam from let's keep that bridge intact to it's no longer relevant if that bridge is burnt. 

2) I state emphatically that I BELIEVE that AAPE is safe and I'm highly confident that it's better than any other treatment on the market. But you would need to fly to a foreign country for repeat treatments in the beginning over the first few months until you got back a good amount of hair. Once you recovered a good amount of hair you might be able to cut back to once every 4 to 9 months for maintenance. 

3) ADSCs could be just as effective as AAPE but I'm unsure because I don't know if the cells get into every nook and cranny that they need to get into and I'm unsure if they remain local to where they are injected. But while I think that some of the cells *probably*disperse outside of the target area I also think that they inject a lot of these cells and many probably stay in the target area. 

3b)This view is shared by Roger-that at Hairsite and he has extensive academic biological education. 

3c) Numerous doctors, including Dr. Cole, are starting to look at adipose derived stem cells to treat hair loss. Maybe "The Arishi" (LOL!) should tell the doctors that they should not be getting involved with ADSCs because "The Arishi" has concluded that they are ineffective. 

3d) Your claim that ADSCs are not proving effective in humans is highly questionable. Many researchers and doctors are saying that ADSCs are proving to be effective. They used to harvest these stem cells from blood and marrow only, and those sources were ineffective for a number of reasons, but now that they are harvesting these cells from adipose tissue some researchers are posting better success. I know this contradicts what "The Arishi" says but "The Arishi" has a history of making mistakes and being wrong. Prior to the 2014 hair loss congress "The Arishi" reported that scientists had resolved the trichogenicity issue but he was proved to be wrong and "The Arishi" later bizarrely accused needhairasap of being in cahoots with the marketers of Pilox to cheat posters at hair loss websites.  LOL!

----------


## nameless

> Exactly.  Who knows how much of the original dna is still present in the cultured cells.  That's really my main problem with jarjar : he pushes others towards these experimental therapies,  tells them they're all safe and effective and let's them take the risks for him.  In the years I have been following these forums jarjar has been one of the few members who didn't even have one surgery or experimental treatment himself.


 I have had hair transplantation - 50 plugs. So you have made yet another mistake in a long line of mistakes.

----------


## Arashi

> I am not comparing eating meats to injecting growth factors, but  ignoring their potentials just because they are closely related to cancer is also nonsense. I gave these examples to show how we are doing stuff daily that improve the quality of our lives while they are also closely related to cancer.


 But your examples don't make any sense and are commonly used by for example smokers defending their habit. You just can't deny that growth factors CAN cause cell over proliferation which can lead to cancer, that's just a fact. If that will happen ? Who knows. But it IS a risk. You seem very comfortable with it, but I'd be very cautious, especially in this point of time were we lack any kind of solid proof that this even will grow a significant amount of hair.

----------


## nameless

I emailed clinics using ADSCs for hair growth and the Bahamian clinic using ADSCs for heart problems to ask about the ADSCs migrating. So far I have only heard back from the heart clinic. Here is what the heart clinic said:

ADRCs as well as mesenchymal cells (MSCs) from bone marrow,when delivered in the heart as well as other tissues and organs have generally migrated out of the target tissue after about three days though some can be found up to about five weeks. It is important to note that the primary way these cells regenerate and repair is through cell-to-cell signaling (paracrine effect). The cells can and do turn into other cells. That is why they are called adult stem cells. The differentiate into adipose, bone, cartilage etc. The cells know what tissue is needed so in the case of the heart they differentiate into heart muscle cells (cardiomyocytes). It is also important to note that while ADRCs have been found to grow new cardiomyocytes they are not enough to build new muscle but they appear to assist in improving pumping function. The most important mechanism for cardiac and other wound repair found with ADRCs is the growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis). These new bloods vessels support the main arteries and bring more blood  and oxygen to the lungs so the person can breathe better per the PRECISE trial (see data on maximum volume of oxygen consumption mVO2).
What makes ADRCs better is that they have been found to be more abundant with cells that are more directly capable of stimulating the growth of new blood vessels as well as cardiomyocytes and are more potent later in life that bone marrow cells.
I hope that helps

----------


## Arashi

> Prior to the 2014 hair loss congress "The Arishi" reported that scientists had resolved the trichogenicity issue but he was proved to be wrong and "The Arishi" later bizarrely accused needhairasap of being in cahoots with the marketers of Pilox to cheat posters at hair loss websites.  LOL!


 Wow, you just keep saying on posting those lies ! I asked you so many times to show evidence for your lies and to quote my post in which I supposedly would have said that (which I never did of course) but you just ignore those every single time. So I will now make a bookmark of this post and just post the link next time you accuse me again (probably today or tomorrow). 

About supposedly having trichogenicity resolved, of course I never said such thing ! You made that up, cause you're angry at me cause you hate to be confronted by the fact that I show the world how you keep pushing people towards costly experimental unproven treatments, to risk their health and money FOR YOU, while you stay in your relaxing chair and risk NOTHING.

About needhairasap, let me address that too in this post for once and for all. This guy has been defending Pilox from the start like it was his own company. But it's not just this extreme fanboyism that made me suspicious. It goes further than that. He opened a thread recently in which he posted OLD photo's taken from the SAGA forum, way after vraf posted newer photo's. In this newer photo's it showed clearly that vraf didnt have any difference at all but in the older photo's he had longer hair which could mislead some newbies into thinking he actually gained hair. As needhairasap was active in that SAGA thread after vraf posted those newer photo's, he clearly saw them, yet he decided to open a thread based on this older, misleading photo's. I asked you: if he isn't somehow financially involved with pilox, why the hell would he do that ? You never answered me, yet you keep claiming it is impossible he is even involved. You fail again to supply any motivation or evidence he's NOT involved or why it would be 'absurd' to even think that.

And lastly, now you're saying that I'm claiming stem cells can't work. Again, you make these lies up out of thin hair, I never said such thing. I AM saying that at this moment there is no reliable scientific evidence that you can grow a significant amount of hair via injection of those stem cells and that pretty much all trials with stem cells in humans either failed or had VERY limited success, due to those stem cells just simply travelling to other area's, away from the injection sites and/or just converting into other tissue. And that there are health risks like cancer involved, as well as steep costs.

Now, I'm not going to repeat myself again but next time you post those crazy lies AGAIN, I will just post a link to this post cause refuting your trolling posts are starting to eat up my time now

----------


## zeos

@nameless
you should immediately contact this laboratory regarding this matter
http://theracell.eu/?page_id=120

----------


## nameless

> @nameless
> you should immediately contact this laboratory regarding this matter
> http://theracell.eu/?page_id=120


 Zeos, I'm going to email them as soon as I get off work. 

If we can't be sure that a good portion of these ADSCs stay local where they are injected then the best bet is AAPE, which may also be obtainable from the Swiss ADCS clinic, but a patient would probably have to fly to Switzerland or Greece once every 7 - 10 days for the first few months when first starting treatment. I do think that once you recovered some hair you could start going less often for maintenance.

----------


## Alias123

Ok its decided now, im doing my second treatment in October, but im doing my second with the swiss clinic, even though the charge almost twice the price it seems like their methods are better ( and in their price everything is included ( 4 star hotel and transportation. 
These are the questions i asked. 
and i asked them before about money back guarantee and they said that a haircount can be done and if not pleased with the results i can get a second treatment for no cost.
these are the questions i asked now.


Since i had a treatment before, will my chances of results be higher?

Definitely this is true, stem cell treatment locally would be expected to have an aggregate result, meaning that will further increase angiogenicity in the treating area resulting in better blood circulation and subsequent strengthening of the existing hair folicles.

2. What kind of results can i expect? im in very early stages of hairloss, with a receding hairline, all i want is that my hairline stays the same since i have good density overall.

Your case is trully a "case scenario" for using stem cell mesotherapy for hair loss since you are still have a good hairline, therefore stem cells will impart further strengthening and eventually stabilization of your condition.

3. the hairline has recceded over the past 12 months, since these hair follices shouldent be completley dead yet, are there bigger chance since my loss hasent been ongoing for that long?

Your age (still in twenties) is also a very important factor ensuring excellent viability and proliferation of your stem cells along with the fact that you mention above will result in a very good prognosis for your condition.

4. if i get results, how long do they last? im using propecia aswell and have been for 18 months.

You will start seeing results after a period of three months and are expected to last for a minimum of 18 months based on all other hailoss risk factors staying the same. DHT formation inhibition by propecia is not expected to affect stem cell proliferation in your scalp area.

----------


## Arashi

That's an answer without any commitment. I'd really ask them for guarantees. They say  "your case is trully a "case scenario" for using stem cell mesotherapy for hair loss", so if it doesn't work for you, then it most probably won't work for anybody. In that case, why would they offer a therapy that won't work for anybody at all ? So, after this claim that you are a text book scenario, they SHOULD give you some guarantees for results.

----------


## zeos

@Alias123
i think it's too much money for only one session
did they give you a timeline how often will you need to repeat this  procedure to get regrowth/maintain results? 
i don't believe in one session treatments

----------


## nameless

> That's an answer without any commitment. I'd really ask them for guarantees. They say  "your case is trully a "case scenario" for using stem cell mesotherapy for hair loss", so if it doesn't work for you, then it most probably won't work for anybody. In that case, why would they offer a therapy that won't work for anybody at all ? So, after this claim that you are a text book scenario, they SHOULD give you some guarantees for results.


 Should we demand guarantees from all doctors Arishi? If we do will doctors stop treating us? 

I don't trust much of anything you say Arishi. You've been making mistakes and talking delusional poo a long time. I will never forget you accusing needhairasap of working with the Pilox marketers to cheat bald man and telling us all how the 2014 hair loss congress researchers resolved the trichogencity issue and cured hair loss.

----------


## Alias123

me:In the case that i wont get any results at all, will there be any kind of compensation or is it on my own risk?




I would like to ensure you that for 15 years know we have never had a case with no results! 

As you understand results may vary and are dependent from several factors including age, genetics, environment etc.

From our end we always do our best to keep you happy being in close contact and this we will do for your case, as well, by performing contouring or repetitive treatments, if necessary, at our own cost.

Thank you and I remain at your disposal

----------


## Arashi

> I would like to ensure you that for 15 years know we have never had a case with no results!


 So, in that case they should agree to a 'no result - money back' guarantee right ? Ask them about it. If they don't want do to the haircount, you could agree with them that an independent clinic performs the haircount. Would love to hear their reaction to that !

----------


## nameless

> So, in that case they should agree to a 'no result - money back' guarantee right ? Ask them about it. If they don't want do to the haircount, you could agree with them that an independent clinic performs the haircount. Would love to hear their reaction to that !


 
I still have not heard back from the lab or the Swiss clinic about whether or not a sufficient number of ADSCs stay local in the target area after being injected. if they do not then the only sure way to get the correct growth factors and proteins to the follicles is by having AAPE injected. I do believe that the Swiss clinic injects AAPE and if it doesn't then it could probably be persuaded to do so.

----------


## nameless

> Ok its decided now, im doing my second treatment in October, but im doing my second with the swiss clinic, even though the charge almost twice the price it seems like their methods are better ( and in their price everything is included ( 4 star hotel and transportation. 
> These are the questions i asked. 
> and i asked them before about money back guarantee and they said that a haircount can be done and if not pleased with the results i can get a second treatment for no cost.
> these are the questions i asked now.
> 
> 
> Since i had a treatment before, will my chances of results be higher?
> 
> Definitely this is true, stem cell treatment locally would be expected to have an aggregate result, meaning that will further increase angiogenicity in the treating area resulting in better blood circulation and subsequent strengthening of the existing hair folicles.
> ...


 
Alias could you please print out the study about AAPE at the beginning of this very thread and give the study to the Swiss clinic and ask them if they can and will do AAPE injections? Please!

----------


## nameless

> Nameless did you give prostemics a call already?


 I sent them an email weeks ago but they didn't respond. I don't think they will talk to us.

----------


## nameless

> nameless, I have received the adipose stem cells at ddr heinrich's centre too. In fact it was probably around the same time as Alias123. I did bump into a young chap when I went there. Maybe that was you alias who i commented to in the waiting room about how hot it was?
> Anyway, I can say that it does have some effect. I actually asked for two adipose samples to be taken, as that would yield 100cc of fat from which to harvest stem cells. I asked for this because I wanted to ensure effectiveness, and it seems that other references in research etc. took 100cc, rather than 50cc which is the standard procedure from ddr heinrich.
> I can say that it hasn't done a huge amount, but this is something which you have to do a couple of times at least to see some real difference.
> 
> Thank you also for the support with the adipose derived stem cell extract funding. I think I'll refer to it as ADSCe from this point forward so that it is clear.
> I think a top level post within future treatments would be a good idea, so I'll write up a long post and get it on there to really muster some interest.
> Hopefully others will get behind it and post to similar forums they are part of.
> Whether I can get it onto a proper crowd-funding platform remains to be seen, as they probably have some rules about funding of medical projects, but I can find out.
> 
> With any luck this can drive forward some research (and a solution), and hopefully everyone on here can feel they are actually part of a solution, rather than feeling frustrated (as I know I have) at how it feels so completely out of ones control.


 
Moleular, although I hate to admit it I think that Arishi might have a valid point about injected adipose derived stem cells migrating out of the area where they are injected and diffusing throughout the person's body. I wish it wasn't so but I think he *might* be right. But that doesn't mean that the same problem would arise with injected AAPE. I think that it since a good amount of AAPE is injected at each treatment date if you got the AAPE treatment every 7 - 14 days for the first few months that might be enough to regrow some hair and then perhaps re-inject every 4 - 6 months after that for maintenance. 

Now of course I'm not sure about this but from the study at the beginning of this thread I think it's our best chance for effective treatment now. The thing is that we are not going to be able to round up the people to pay for the study you suggested. I would contribute but I can't pay for the study by myself. I don't have that kind of money. So I think that the smart thing to do is to try to talk the Greece and Swiss clinics to offer the AAPE treatment. 

You talk to the Greece and Swiss teams so perhaps you could raise this issue to them and see how they would feel about it offering AAPE injections.

----------


## nameless

> Hello again everyone.
> Apologies for my hiatus, I've had some things to sort out.
> 
> I have actually in the intervening period had an ADSC procedure (in Austria) - it involves taking fat samples, they separate the stemcells and mix with PRP and then inject into your scalp. I can say that it has stopped the loss and has regrown hair. Results aren't that significant, but you have to get this done a few times before it's really noticeable. I would rather do this than have a hair transplant, as the idea of it doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> I recently posted to the crowd-funding forum but didn't follow up, as I had some things to sort out. As my crowd-funding initiative is intended on this topic though, I'll post here.
> 
> As some of you may have seen, a while ago I mentioned that I would organise for Fukuoka's research to be replicated, and I was trying to source a lab and put together a sort of 'package' to help people regrow their hair.
> I have now sourced a lab in Europe, and would now like to appeal to the community for crowd-funding this venture.
> ...


 
Molelular it looks like I'm the only one willing to chip in to get your AAPE clinic idea off the ground. Obviously I can not chip enough in to get your project going so we can't get your project going. So it would be best if you talk to the clinic where you are getting your adipose derived stem cell treatment and try to talk them into starting AAPE treatments.

----------


## nameless

I hate to admit it but for once Arishi might be right about something. A huge amount of adipose derived stem cells might migrate out of the scalp area shortly after implantation. This means that injecting AAPE is a much better way to treat hair loss than adipose derived stem cell injections. So we are right back where we started and we need to find a clinic that will treat us with AAPE. I would think that since the adipose derived stem cells clinics are already working with ADSCs they might also be welling to work with AAPE.

----------


## hgs1989

> I hate to admit it but for once Arishi might be right about something. A huge amount of adipose derived stem cells might migrate out of the scalp area shortly after implantation.


 please provide the reference of stem cell migration from the location of injection. if this is true, it might have implications on replicel.

----------


## Alias123

wait i am abit confused wth all these AAPE comments.. are you saying that the treatments offered in the swiss clinic ( in greece) only works if you do it every 4-7 days? in the begining and then every few months? so it doesnt do anything if you take the treatment twice as i am doing (during the course of 4 months)

----------


## Sogeking

> wait i am abit confused wth all these AAPE comments.. are you saying that the treatments offered in the swiss clinic ( in greece) only works if you do it every 4-7 days? in the begining and then every few months? so it doesnt do anything if you take the treatment twice as i am doing (during the course of 4 months)


 Yeah he's saying that adipose derived stem cells like to migrate through out the body, only minor amount would stay at the site of injection.
He is also suggesting that one would do a few treatments in succession and then proceed with a few more sparse treatments (1-2 per year). However I consider that too expensive unless one is rich.

Despite all of that all the treatments you had would still have some effect if the stem cell treatment actually works. Moleular reports that it works for him. What about you, are you seeing any improvement after the treatment in Vienna? 

As for the Swiss clinic I'm not sure if they are offering AAPE injections or just adipose derived stem cells.

Basically you and moleluar are the first on this forum testing this treatment, everything else is just conjecture, I mean taking this treatment every few months might not have any result whatsoever.

----------


## Arashi

> wait i am abit confused wth all these AAPE comments.. are you saying that the treatments offered in the swiss clinic ( in greece) only works if you do it every 4-7 days? in the begining and then every few months? so it doesnt do anything if you take the treatment twice as i am doing (during the course of 4 months)


 At this point it's just speculation but pretty much all other stem cell studies have failed and/or had very marginable successes, mostly due to stem cells travelling away from injection sites and/or simply differentiating into other tissue. Maybe for hairloss the risk of stem cells migrating away is a bit lower, but who knows ... There's just no real credible clinical data at this point at all.

Did you ask the clinic again for guarantees ? After they've said that " Your case is trully a "case scenario" and that they've never had any client in 15 years without success, they should have no problems giving you a simple guarantee, right ? Cause they make it sound like a failure is extremely unlikely. In finance, anything that's unlikely is cheap so they shouldnt have a problem giving that away.

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## Alias123

the only guarantee i got was not a money back guarantee, but another ( same ) treatment for free in 6 months.

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## Arashi

> the only guarantee i got was not a money back guarantee, but another ( same ) treatment for free in 6 months.


 Well if the treatment doesn't work, then most probably the next one won't either ... I have a feeling they're selling you a worthless therapy, but there's only 1 way to find out I guess  :Smile:

----------


## nameless

> please provide the reference of stem cell migration from the location of injection. if this is true, it might have implications on replicel.


 I can't find an actual study myself but I did contact the heart clinic in The Bahamas that is working with ADSCs and this below in bold type is what they told me:

*ADRCs as well as mesenchymal cells (MSCs) from bone marrow,when delivered in the heart as well as other tissues and organs have generally migrated out of the target tissue after about three days though some can be found up to about five weeks. It is important to note that the primary way these cells regenerate and repair is through cell-to-cell signaling (paracrine effect). The cells can and do turn into other cells. That is why they are called adult stem cells. The differentiate into adipose, bone, cartilage etc. The cells know what tissue is needed so in the case of the heart they differentiate into heart muscle cells (cardiomyocytes). It is also important to note that while ADRCs have been found to grow new cardiomyocytes they are not enough to build new muscle but they appear to assist in improving pumping function. The most important mechanism for cardiac and other wound repair found with ADRCs is the growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis). These new bloods vessels support the main arteries and bring more blood  and oxygen to the lungs so the person can breathe better per the PRECISE trial (see data on maximum volume of oxygen consumption mVO2).
What makes ADRCs better is that they have been found to be more abundant with cells that are more directly capable of stimulating the growth of new blood vessels as well as cardiomyocytes and are more potent later in life that bone marrow cells.*


He didn't provide a study link but he is the point man for a highly sophisticated adipose derived stem cell clinic in The Bahamas. Here is the clinic he works at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wYT5AG7pA

He says that a lot of the cells migrate out of organs and other tissue within 3 days although some of the cells have been found in the target tissue 5 weeks after injection. Still, a lot of the cells are leaving the target tissue and organs. I have looked into this clinic quite a bit and this clinic has very skilled and respected professionals on board. This is not a ramshackle Bahamian clinic. They set this clinic up right, with the right people, and I have a lot of confidence in their expertise and knowledge. 

Since a lot of these cells are leaving the target tissue the surest way to get this done is to use AAPE. So we are now back where we were at the beginning of this thread talking about AAPE and AAPE is the most certain treatment for here and now. AAPE is the excretions from the same adipose derived stem cells anyway.  What we need is to get the Greek and Swiss clinic to offer AAPE injections.

----------


## nameless

> Wow. You really never cease to amaze me jarjar. You compress so much nonsense into your sentences that someone should give you an award for it. I am not even sure where to start ... You seem to confuse jahodas idea about adding fat cells to his experiments with the idea of injecting stem cells. And really, 'enlarge follicles', haha, what makes you think jahoda wants bigger follicles ?
> 
> Adsc really have pretty much nothing to do with jahodas research. He is trying to figure out signaling between fat cells and follicles


 
Jahoda is trying to do MORE than just figure out the signaling between fat cells and follicles. He is also trying to incorporate those signals into his culture cell constructs. And of course the signals are the growth factors. 

And of course you indicated that Jahoda is trying to use more parts of fat tissue than just the fat stem cells, but even if that's true the fact still remains that that some of the fat tissue that he's using is cells that produce the AAPE growth factors and proteins and at least one of the reasons he's using these cells is because he wants to get these growth factors and proteins into his mixes. 

if these growth factors and proteins will improve his lab results then they should be beneficial for our follicle needs as well.

----------


## HairIsLife

47 pages later.. Let me guess, nothing ?

----------


## nameless

> Well if the treatment doesn't work, then most probably the next one won't either ... I have a feeling they're selling you a worthless therapy, but there's only 1 way to find out I guess


 By your logic if you have an ear infection and you take one 500 mg pill of penicillin and it doesn't kill the infection you should stop taking the penicillin. But if you were to continue taking the penicillin 3 times per day for 10 days it would work. 

This is your problem Arishi. You don't know what you're talking about.

----------


## Arashi

Wow. First you say: 



> Jahoda is trying to do MORE than just figure out the signaling between fat cells and follicles. He is also trying to incorporate those signals into his culture cell constructs. And of course the signals are the growth factors. 
> 
> And of course you indicated that Jahoda is trying to use more parts of fat tissue than just the fat stem cells, but even if that's true the fact still remains that that some of the fat tissue that he's using is cells that produce the AAPE growth factors and proteins and at least one of the reasons he's using these cells is because he wants to get these growth factors and proteins into his mixes. 
> 
> if these growth factors and proteins will improve his lab results then they should be beneficial for our follicle needs as well.


 and then: 




> This is your problem Arishi. You don't know what you're talking about.


 I'm not even going to respond, anyone with a bit of knowledge will know enough. You're making up so much crap and present all your crazy theories, misinterpretation of research and absurd ideas as facts, that I'm not even going to respond to it anymore. Argueing with an idiot on the internet, got better things to do this sunday, sorry ...

----------


## nameless

> Wow. First you say: 
> 
> 
> and then: 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not even going to respond, anyone with a bit of knowledge will know enough. You're making up so much crap and present all your crazy theories, misinterpretation of research and absurd ideas as facts, that I'm not even going to respond to it anymore. Argueing with an idiot on the internet, got better things to do this sunday, sorry ...


 
Arishi, here in quotation marks is a post by Aaron Gardner posted at this very website wherein Aaron Gardner talks about using cells for the very exact purpose of getting the cell's growth factors into Jahoda's mix. I will underline the key statement by Gardner:


"No one has presented, or published work demonstrating full retention of inductivity or gene expression. As I said above But I dont think 100% restoration is required in culture, it wont hurt but a lot of the character of the DP in vivo is generated by its interactions with surrounding tissue. All we and the other groups are attempting to do is restore enough character to the DP cells to kick start this interaction with a high efficiency.

The addition of growth factors is not desirable for clinical practice. Producing these factors to a clinical standard is very difficult and expensive, it is better to try and induce the cells to make these factors themselves.

Im not sure what you mean about the sheath cells, do you mean are they important for hair follicle orientation?

The interaction of any constructs with the surrounding tissues is key yes, as Ive mentioned previously implanting these constructs into skin which has underlying problems will not cure baldness. Co-therapies limiting the degradation of any new follicles would be required. 

Multi-cell models including adipocytes (fat cells) and melanocytes (cells that provide colouration) are in the works, but I cant talk about those at the moment."

So I have proved you wrong again. Jahoda is in fact using cells to involve growth factors, and this means that Jahoda sees value in growth factors such as AAPE. 

And your indication that multiple treatments would prove no more beneficial than multiple treatments is laughable. I work at a hospital and we frequently give multiple treatments to treat a condition. Rogaine employs repeat treatments and everyone knows it.  

Bzzt! Wrong again Arishi.

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## HairIsLife

Ahh, now I see where the 47 pages came from. 

Too bad this site doesn't have PM, this thread would probably only have two pages.

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## Alias123

what the f*** so me doing this treatment for the second time is going to do nothing to my hair? that would suck since i really got my hopes up for my hairline to stop receding,.. im not expecting miracles but atleast halt the loss, are you saying u think the chances of it working are minimal? that is not worth to pay 8000 euros for

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## hellouser

> Too bad this site doesn't have PM, this thread would probably only have two pages.


 It does. PM'ing is actually disabled.

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## Arashi

> what the f*** so me doing this treatment for the second time is going to do nothing to my hair? that would suck since i really got my hopes up for my hairline to stop receding,.. im not expecting miracles but atleast halt the loss, are you saying u think the chances of it working are minimal? that is not worth to pay 8000 euros for


 Nobody knows man. In theory it could work but I'd NEVER pay 8000 euro for this slight chance it does work. But again, who knows, my guess is as good as anybody's.

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## hgs1989

> what the f*** so me doing this treatment for the second time is going to do nothing to my hair? that would suck since i really got my hopes up for my hairline to stop receding,.. im not expecting miracles but atleast halt the loss, are you saying u think the chances of it working are minimal? that is not worth to pay 8000 euros for


 I told you from the beginning don't go.  in the us the treatment is a lot cheaper and even at the 2500 $ price i consider it expensive. even if the treatment worked, it shouldn't be priced at 8000. I don't think the equipment use would cost much. are they charging 7000 euros for injecting your scalp ?!!! that is if the equipment use is 1000 euros.

----------


## nameless

> I told you from the beginning don't go.  in the us the treatment is a lot cheaper and even at the 2500 $ price i consider it expensive. even if the treatment worked, it shouldn't be priced at 8000. I don't think the equipment use would cost much. are they charging 7000 euros for injecting your scalp ?!!! that is if the equipment use is 1000 euros.


 The European clinics are charging so much because there is little or no competition. The companies in the USA are not offering pure adipose derived stem cells. The USA companies are offering SVF, which is a mixture of fat tissue items. Some of these other items in the SVF could possibly hinder the potential of the adipose derived stem cells. If you go with adipose derived stem cells you would be better off to use PURE adipose derived stem cells and you'll have to go to Europe for that. These European companies know that they have the market cornered.

All that aside, I think that the AAPE excretions from the adipose derived stem cells would be more certain to be effective than the adipose derived stem cells because I have it on good authority that a lot of the adipose derived stem cells can clear out of the target area inside of 3 days. Given that, I think the smartest most-certain way to go would be the AAPE instead.

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## Alias123

well im doing it anyway, i guess the chances for maintance are small but its the best i got since im very much against hairtransplants. wish me luck

----------


## Arashi

> Arishi, here in quotation marks is a post by Aaron Gardner posted at this very website wherein Aaron Gardner talks about using cells for the very exact purpose of getting the cell's growth factors into Jahoda's mix. I will underline the key statement by Gardner:
> 
> 
> "No one has presented, or published work demonstrating full retention of inductivity or gene expression. As I said above “But I don’t think 100% restoration is required in culture, it won’t hurt but a lot of the character of the DP in vivo is generated by its interactions with surrounding tissue. All we and the other groups are attempting to do is restore enough character to the DP cells to kick start this interaction with a high efficiency.”
> 
> The addition of growth factors is not desirable for clinical practice. Producing these factors to a clinical standard is very difficult and expensive, it is better to try and induce the cells to make these factors themselves.
> 
> I’m not sure what you mean about the sheath cells, do you mean are they important for hair follicle orientation?
> 
> ...


 Wow. You just keep doing it eh. This is the post you are quoting: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...l=1#post174467 in which Dr Gardner was asked about injecting growth factors. He simply commented that he doesn't like injecting growth factors for several reasons he outlined and he thinks it makes more sense to let cells secrete growth factors themselves. Actually, that's 100% against YOUR advise for people to inject AAPE (=growth factors) instead of stem cells. Besides that, this has NOTHING to do with his own research.

You keep on pushing people with lies onto unproven therapies. Did you ever make your excuses to Tom Vercetti, whose donor got destroyed by Nigam ? Did you ever say sorry to Boldy, who is STILL fighting infections due to the grafts Nigam implanted upside down ? Did you send flowers to Wesley when Nigam's animal serum injections made him so sick that he almost literally died ? No of course not. You just keep on posting lies, hoping people will move onto unproven therapies so they can test it FOR YOU, while you keep your money in your pocket and are not risking your health. You said you are a religious guy, what do you think your god will think of your behaviour ?

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## hgs1989

> 47 pages later.. Let me guess, nothing ?


 depend on your definition of nothing. here we have a product (AAPE) which is similar to histogen. it is injected every 2 weeks and results to me looks great. see the paper that began the whole thing. instead of commenting on results and discussing the potentials we have someone who is clogging the thread for petty arguments of who was right and who was wrong. he would go as old as this forum can be to satisfy his obsession.

----------


## Arashi

> depend on your definition of nothing. here we have a product (AAPE) which is similar to histogen. it is injected every 2 weeks and results to me looks great. see the paper that began the whole thing.


 We've seen similar fake papers in the past. Remember the derma rolling paper ? Or Gho's publication in that dermatology journal ? Papers alone don't mean much. Does the science make sense ? I guess it could, although again, injection of stem cells have proven so far always either to be a failure or have VERY mediocre results at best, for several reasons. Besides that we have clinic who say they have a track record of 15 years of good results, yet they don't give a 'money back' guarantee to somebody who they claim is a perfect case for their treatment. They offer the same treatment AGAIN instead.

I think it's very important here to realize that although this treatment MIGHT somewhat work, you're paying a hefty fee for in my opinion a slight chance that it can work. If people like Alias123 are ok with that, like he states, that's great and we can see if this works for him, that's a great opportunity for this forum. But again, it's important to stay with facts. Posting lies to get people to do experimental treatments, that's just extremely unethical and as long as JarJarbinx will do that, I will keep correcting him.

----------


## nameless

> depend on your definition of nothing. here we have a product (AAPE) which is similar to histogen. it is injected every 2 weeks and results to me looks great. see the paper that began the whole thing. instead of commenting on results and discussing the potentials we have someone who is clogging the thread for petty arguments of who was right and who was wrong. he would go as old as this forum can be to satisfy his obsession.


 You know you're right about AAPE. I know it. We need to gather as many smart men as we can to form a group of men to send individual emails to the Swiss and Greek clinics that are already offering adipose derived stem cells to try to persuade them to start offering AAPE. AAPE is the excretions from the very adipose derived stem cells they are already offering so it wouldn't be much of a jump to get them to start offering AAPE. Let's form a group of smart guys to try to get those adipose derived stem cell clinics to offer AAPE treatments. I'm on board. You are DEFINITELY right. Ignore Arishi. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

----------


## hellouser

> We've seen similar fake papers in the past. Remember the derma rolling paper ? Or Gho's publication in that dermatology journal ? Papers alone don't mean much. Does the science make sense ? I guess it could, although again, injection of stem cells have proven so far always either to be a failure or have VERY mediocre results at best, for several reasons. Besides that we have clinic who say they have a track record of 15 years of good results, yet they don't give a 'money back' guarantee to somebody who they claim is a perfect case for their treatment. They offer the same treatment AGAIN instead.
> 
> I think it's very important here to realize that although this treatment MIGHT somewhat work, you're paying a hefty fee for in my opinion a slight chance that it can work. If people like Alias123 are ok with that, like he states, that's great and we can see if this works for him, that's a great opportunity for this forum. But again, it's important to stay with facts. Posting lies to get people to do experimental treatments, that's just extremely unethical and as long as JarJarbinx will do that, I will keep correcting him.


 The only papers we should be taking with 100% certainty are from Dr. Lauster, Jahoda, Cotsarelis, Christiano and Tsuji.

----------


## Arashi

> The only papers we should be taking with 100% certainty are from Dr. Lauster, Jahoda, Cotsarelis, Christiano and Tsuji.


 Agreed

----------


## hgs1989

> We've seen similar fake papers in the past. Remember the derma rolling paper ? Or Gho's publication in that dermatology journal ? Papers alone don't mean much. Does the science make sense ? I guess it could, although again, injection of stem cells have proven so far always either to be a failure or have VERY mediocre results at best, for several reasons. Besides that we have clinic who say they have a track record of 15 years of good results, yet they don't give a 'money back' guarantee to somebody who they claim is a perfect case for their treatment. They offer the same treatment AGAIN instead.
> 
> I think it's very important here to realize that although this treatment MIGHT somewhat work, you're paying a hefty fee for in my opinion a slight chance that it can work. If people like Alias123 are ok with that, like he states, that's great and we can see if this works for him, that's a great opportunity for this forum. But again, it's important to stay with facts. Posting lies to get people to do experimental treatments, that's just extremely unethical and as long as JarJarbinx will do that, I will keep correcting him.


 it could be a scam. that what we need to find out. since it is coming from south korea I would believe the ingredients are as they will be on the label 90% sure I would say. I already stated my opinion on the use of secreted growth factors. histogen is just highly concentrated mixture of growth factors. and judging from several pictures i have seen so far I think I have every reason to believe it will work. So I think I would pay for AAPE. as far as people being pushed to do unethical treatments, anyone who takes a medical advice from a forum, I think he saw the risks coming. going to nigam. I am not being racist but believing a doctor with a clinic in India ( it is a fact that India is not well organized at any area again not racist) is non sense. as far as Gho I would have believed the guy myself but with a reasonable amount of caution. at least being in the Netherlands he cant get away with making your immune system attacking you.
pilox was kinda exposed. you Arashi cold do the same here. go deeper into the people behind it see their publications and their positions to know their credibility. unless proven scam we can not state that it is a scam.

----------


## Arashi

> unless proven scam we can not state that it is a scam.


 Agreed of course. That's why it's going to be interesting to see how Alias123 responds to this treatment. They told him he's an ideal candidate, he should have good results. If not, then that's a very bad sign.

----------


## hgs1989

> Agreed of course. That's why it's going to be interesting to see how Alias123 responds to this treatment. They told him he's an ideal candidate, he should have good results. If not, then that's a very bad sign.


 Aias would only prove whether fat stem cells injection works or not. we need to find out about AAPE .

----------


## nameless

> The only papers we should be taking with 100% certainty are from Dr. Lauster, Jahoda, Cotsarelis, Christiano and Tsuji.


 Ok Hellouser, then nestle in for your 7+ year wait and stop whining all the time. You want a product that is completely researched and vetted then you will have to invest TIME into it by waiting 7+ years. 

But you're also one of the posters who whines the most about waiting. 

You're best chance in the here and now is AAPE. Period. Your 2nd best chance in the here and now is adipose derived stem cells.

----------


## nameless

> Aias would only prove whether fat stem cells injection works or not. we need to find out about AAPE .


 Of course you're right again. And we already have a good sign that AAPE works because there is an AAPE study plus Histogen works. 

What we need to focus on is organizing a group of us with sense who will individually send a lot of emails to the Swiss and Greek clinics asking them to start offering AAPE.

----------


## nameless

> Agreed


 Then why don't you just go away?

Why don't you just go somewhere and wait your 7 - 10 years for those guys to cure hair loss?

At least then we won't have to deal with your constant arguing about other treatments that some of us rightfully and smartly find EXTREMELY promising.

----------


## nameless

> The only papers we should be taking with 100% certainty are from Dr. Lauster, Jahoda, Cotsarelis, Christiano and Tsuji.


 
Here's hellouser:

"Wah, wah the researchers are taking too long. The FDA is wasting time. Wah, wah. We have to find a way around the delays by the researchers and the FDA."

"We should only consider treatments that are being brought to market slowly by the mainstream researchers who are taking to too long."


Of course hellouser didn't actually say the exact above 2 statements but the things that he is constantly saying in every post mean the exact same thing as the above 2 statements. Everything he says means the same things as these two statements and any intelligent person can see that these two things mean opposite things. This is why I say that hellouser is like a senseless PMS women.

----------


## nameless

> Agreed of course. That's why it's going to be interesting to see how Alias123 responds to this treatment. They told him he's an ideal candidate, he should have good results. If not, then that's a very bad sign.


 It would be a bad sign for adipose derived stem cells, not AAPE fool.

----------


## hellouser

> Here's hellouser:
> 
> "Wah, wah the researchers are taking too long. The FDA is wasting time. Wah, wah. We have to find a way around the delays by the researchers and the FDA."
> 
> "We should only consider treatments that are being brought to market slowly by the mainstream researchers who are taking to too long."
> 
> 
> Of course hellouser didn't actually say the exact above 2 statements but the things that he is constantly saying in every post mean the exact same thing as the above 2 statements. Everything he says means the same things as these two statements and any intelligent person can see that these two things mean opposite things. This is why I say that hellouser is like a senseless PMS women.


 Unfortunately for you is that I'm actually right about my comments, lol. If you're so sure about AAPE, how come you're not getting the procedure yourself and if it were to work so well, why isn't it making headline news? The simplest answer is usually the right one...

----------


## nameless

> Unfortunately for you is that I'm actually right about my comments, lol. If you're so sure about AAPE, how come you're not getting the procedure yourself and if it were to work so well, why isn't it making headline news? The simplest answer is usually the right one...


 1. This a case of you *assuming* stuff Hellouser. You're assuming that since it's not in clinical trials (as far as we know) that means there must be something wrong with it. But that is not necessarily the case. You're assuming things. 

2. AAPE was discovered a long time ago...back when the fear that growth factors would cause cancer was larger.

3. Growth factors are more and more being used, and it is more and more being discovered that it is not causing cancer for some reason.

4. Not only has AAPE gone through studies and not caused cancer but so has Histogen and other cosmetics are more and more starting to add growth factors without causing cancer for some reason.

5. Your assertion that people are ignoring AAPE is false. As recently as the 2014 hair loss congress (the one Desmond went to) there were some presentations involving AAPE. 

6. The reasons I'm not going to get it yet are as follows:

a) I can't find legitimate AAPE anywhere.

b) If I do find it I will have to save to afford it. 


Regards to "a" in item 6, I say we should individually be emailing the clinics offering ADSCs (Swiss clinic and the Greek clinic) and trying to persuade them to offer AAPE. They are already offering ADSCs which secrete AAPE so it doesn't seem like much of a leap to get them to offer AAPE. But it would take a big email campaign for us to have a chance of getting them to do it because it is expensive to add new treatments and I'm sure that people submit a lot of ideas to them that have no chance of working. They aren't going to jump at it without contemplating it. 

Regardsd to "b" in item 6, I don't have a fortune. I'm not alias. I'm nameless. Look, it we get clinics to offer AAPE and you want me to go first then pay for me to get it and I will go first. If we get a credible clinic to try it I will gladly be the first AAPE patient if someone will pay for my treatment. Otherwise I will probably have to wait a year to save some cashola. I'm a middle class person. That's the reality of it.

----------


## zeos

> Zeos, I'm going to email them as soon as I get off work.


 any news on this?
did you contact them(http://theracell.eu/?page_id=120)?


is this AAPE or ADSC ?:
''A new medical technique for hair regeneration using stem cells solves in men and women with thin hair and thinning. Treatment is based on the isolation of a large number of proteins, which are released from the stem cells of fat. .....''

----------


## nameless

> any news on this?
> did you contact them(http://theracell.eu/?page_id=120)?
> 
> 
> is this AAPE or ADSC ?:
> ''A new medical technique for hair regeneration using stem cells solves in men and women with thin hair and thinning. Treatment is based on the isolation of a large number of proteins, which are released from the stem cells of fat. .....''


 I sent them an email but they didn't respond.

----------


## Arashi

> Regardsd to "b" in item 6, I don't have a fortune. I'm not alias. I'm nameless. Look, it we get clinics to offer AAPE and you want me to go first then pay for me to get it and I will go first. If we get a credible clinic to try it I will gladly be the first AAPE patient if someone will pay for my treatment. Otherwise I will probably have to wait a year to save some cashola. I'm a middle class person. That's the reality of it.


 That's the same lame excuse you used when people asked why YOU were not going to Nigam, while you were hyping him on every hair loss forum out there. You said back then that you were saving money. You still don't have enough saved ? A 50 year old guy who can't pay for a hair treatment, I feel sorry for you. Anyway of course the matter of the fact is that you don't want to risk YOUR money and want others to risk it for you. That's ok, I'm in the same boat, although I'm a millionaire I would NEVER pay 8000 euro for such an experimental treatment if the company offering it is not willing to give money back guarantees. So I can totally understand you, I am in the same boat. But just stick with facts man, no need to tell people lies. You see, Alias123 is willing to go either way, no need to seduce him with lies.

----------


## hgs1989

> is this AAPE or ADSC ?:
> Treatment is based on the *isolation of a large number of proteins*, which are released from the stem cells of fat. .....''


 i believe it is AAPE. which page on theracell did you get that.

----------


## nameless

> i believe it is AAPE. which page on theracell did you get that.


 It's my understanding that AAPE would have to be stored in certain ways at certain temps and stuff like that. I don't think it can sit on a shelf at a pharmacy and sold like that. I think that would damage it's efficacy.

----------


## zeos

> i believe it is AAPE. which page on theracell did you get that.


  not on theracell but related to it,i found it on a medical site,i have already posted it here(go to the end):
https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...=16196&page=39


so it's important that some of you guys with knowledge of the issue contact them even better call them directly

----------


## nameless

> it's translated from greek to english(from a medical site) but i think it's understandable
> what are your thoughts?
> 
> 
> Hair Loss Treatment with stem cells
> 
> A new medical technique for hair regeneration using stem cells solves in men and women with thin hair and thinning. Treatment is based on the isolation of a large number of proteins, which are released from the stem cells of fat. Innovative therapy has been developed and applied atin Greece in collaboration with the Centre for Plastic Surgery "Cosmetic Restoration" and pioneer biotechnology company regenerative «Theracell». The isolation of stem cells from fat is a revolutionary art, with impressive results and new perspectives in aesthetic medicine. Recent clinical studies show that the regenerative properties of stem cell derivatives have applications in aesthetic medicine and more specifically to regenerate skin and hair regeneration. The skilled and innovative way of making it rich in growth factors 'extract' activates the regeneration and growth of hair, without trichothylakeion and stem cell transplantation.
> It is scientifically proven that up to 80% of the action of the stem due to the secretion of a large number of biomolecules, such as growth factors, primarily, cytokines and various enzymes. Very specifically, the fat stem cells secrete more than 700 such proteins, which play an important role in tissue remodeling and regeneration. These proteins act at the site of application:
>  Enabling other skin cells (fibroblasts)
> ...


 
It sounds like it could be the correct treatment but I'm not sure if they are using the same growth factors and proteins that are in AAPE. I think that the best thing for you to do would be if you could contact them and ask them to compare what they are doing to what is being done in the AAPE study. The address to the AAPE study can be copied and pasted to the email you send them. You can get the email address to the AAPE study in the first post of this very thread. But I will include it here to save you the trouble of having to look for it. Here it is:

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

----------


## nameless

> not on theracell but related to it,i found it on a medical site,i have already posted it here(go to the end):
> https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...=16196&page=39
> 
> 
> so it's important that some of you guys with knowledge of the issue contact them even better call them directly


 I don't know Greek. I don't understand them and they wouldn't understand me. I did follow your link to your other post and I did respond to it. Here is what I posted to you:

It sounds like it could be the correct treatment but I'm not sure if they are using the same growth factors and proteins that are in AAPE. I think that the best thing for you to do would be if you could email them and ask them to compare what they are doing to what is being done in the AAPE study. The address to the AAPE study can be copied and pasted to the email you send them. You can get the email address to the AAPE study in the first post of this very thread. But I will include it here to save you the trouble of having to look for it. Here it is:

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

I am preparing an email to send to them but I don't think they will understand what I'm saying to them and I won't understand their reply either if they do respond to me.

----------


## nameless

> not on theracell but related to it,i found it on a medical site,i have already posted it here(go to the end):
> https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...=16196&page=39
> 
> 
> so it's important that some of you guys with knowledge of the issue contact them even better call them directly


 I went to the source you provided and it looks like a newspaper. I can't understand what the newspaper says so I can't navigate to the article about the specific clinic you're referring to and I have no idea what the name of the clinic is or how to contact them. You did not provide a link to the clinic or their contact information.

----------


## nameless

> The only papers we should be taking with 100% certainty are from Dr. Lauster, Jahoda, Cotsarelis, Christiano and Tsuji.


 
Here's a proven therapy for you hellouser:

http://www.medicaldaily.com/fda-appr...wth-men-304890

----------


## zeos

> I don't know Greek. I don't understand them and they wouldn't understand me.....
> 
> I am preparing an email to send to them but I don't think they will understand what I'm saying to them and I won't understand their reply either if they do respond to me.


 don't think so nameless,you will not have  any problems because as you see the whole site(http://theracell.eu/) is only in english,it's more an english speaking enterprise

i've also found the email address of the clinic,
here can you contact them(also in english):
http://www.athanasioschristopoulos.c...sh/contact.php

you should contact them(send them an email or give them a call,I prefer the second)because you have the  knowledge of the issue 

here is the site where i got the information:
http://www.vitamelia.gr/510/therapei...-blastokuttara  (in greek)

https://translate.google.de/translat...ara&edit-text=  (tranlated in english)

send these 2 sites also to them so that they can understand what are you talking about

good luck!!!

----------


## nameless

> don't think so nameless,you will not have  any problems because as you see the whole site(http://theracell.eu/) is only in english,it's more an english speaking enterprise
> 
> i've also found the email address of the clinic,
> here can you contact them(also in english):
> http://www.athanasioschristopoulos.c...sh/contact.php
> 
> you should contact them(send them an email or give them a call,I prefer the second)because you have the  knowledge of the issue 
> 
> here is the site where i got the information:
> ...


 
Thanks Zeos. Really, thanks a lot. I'm thankful that someone like you with some gumption and spirit has stepped up to collaborate with me to try to figure out a way way to get these clinics interested in AAPE. Please don't stop thinking of ideas of how I can get clinics interested in AAPE. I will try any good ideas you come up with to get this ball rolling. 

I work until 4:30 pm today and after I get off work I'm going to sit down and organize an email for the clinic that you gave me the contact information for. I will include the AAPE study and I will ask ALL of the pertinent questions. 

I'll also start looking into how I could possibly contact them by telephone. I have to have my phone carrier give me an international calling plan. But I do prefer emails because these scientific issues are very complex and email text allows me to collect my thoughts. It would definitely be best to lay the communication ground work via email so I can lay out a general idea of what we are asking them to do.

----------


## nameless

> don't think so nameless,you will not have  any problems because as you see the whole site(http://theracell.eu/) is only in english,it's more an english speaking enterprise
> 
> i've also found the email address of the clinic,
> here can you contact them(also in english):
> http://www.athanasioschristopoulos.c...sh/contact.php
> 
> you should contact them(send them an email or give them a call,I prefer the second)because you have the  knowledge of the issue 
> 
> here is the site where i got the information:
> ...


 
I did email them at all of the email addresses you gave me. 

I do not know if email from one person will be enough to persuade them to try AAPE. I wish we could get everyone here at this site to email them too but of course most of these folks lack the gumption to take a positive pro-active step forward. It's easier for them to cry and PMS rant about treatments not being available than to actually do something that might cause a treatment to become available. 

Our only realistic short term revolutionary treatment possibilities:

1. AAPE

2. Adipose derived stem cells. But this method may not work because the cells may migrate out of the scalp too quickly. So AAPE is the best bet.

----------


## joachim

> I did email them at all of the email addresses you gave me. 
> 
> I do not know if email from one person will be enough to persuade them to try AAPE. I wish we could get everyone here at this site to email them too but of course most of these folks lack the gumption to take a positive pro-active step forward. It's easier for them to cry and PMS rant about treatments not being available than to actually do something that might cause a treatment to become available. 
> 
> Our only realistic short term revolutionary treatment possibilities:
> 
> 1. AAPE
> 
> 2. Adipose derived stem cells. But this method may not work because the cells may migrate out of the scalp too quickly. So AAPE is the best bet.


 if you think it's a good strategy that more forum user send mails to the clinic, why not just create some fake mail addresses on your own from gmail, hotmail, gmx etc. so you could have a lot of different identity's and appear as many different persons? you could easily create 20, 50 or even 100 different accounts which could be used to email them. of course you should adapt the text every time a bit so that they have the feeling of talking to different persons.
you would then see if your strategy pans out. if not, at least it was worth a try and you can move on.

----------


## hgs1989

On the role of ADSC in hair regeneration, horsley of yale university made a study after the one which they discovered the thinning of fatty layer during catagen. http://horsley.yale.edu/sites/defaul...s/bsreview.pdf interestingly they further supported the importance of ADSC on hair. at many occasions they showed that mice lacking a proper fatty layer had had hair loss and early entry into catagen. the more intersting part is that " transplantation of adipocyte progenitor cells intradermally into the back skin of shaved mice at the extended 34 week telogen stage of the hair follicle cycle that occurs around 7 weeks of age resulted in adipocyte graft formation and corresponding precocious hair growth. Anagen was induced in these mice injected with the enriched adipocyte progenitor cells from WT or AZIP, but not with cells of the entire stromal vascular fraction. , supporting that the hair-inducing activity was specific
for immature adipocyte lineage cells."

so transplantation of adepocyte progenitor cells intradermally cause the hair to enter anagen phase prematurely. most clinics that are studying this are working with SVF. the papaer notes that only immature cells are needed. according to this: http://stemcellassays.com/2013/05/breaking-fat-svf/ only 2 - 10% of SVF is stem cells. 
 some of you brought the problem of migration adding this to the low concentration of the needed cells make it worse. 
Dr.yates recently posted hair transplant results with an injection of SVF+prp after 7 months. either that the transplant was really really good or that SVF+prp played a big role in thickening the guy's hair. what do yo guys think? 

some notes before replying to this: 
1-I realize that yale study is on mice, but remember replicel, histogen, christiano, jahoda, lauster and everybody else worked with mice first. 
2- my personal take on 1 is  that what affects mice positively and causes great results will not be the full head of hair for us but it will affect us positively for sure. our hair is much more complicated than mice's fur. 

another thing I wold like to point out is that some of you question the role of prp.  I would rather question current practice. charging > 1000$ and market it as a one time a year treatment while it has some potential with several injections. I found this article that might support this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4032742/ same with SVF. the link I posted above notes that only a small fraction of SVF contains stem cells. so multiple injections would also be required.

----------


## nameless

> On the role of ADSC in hair regeneration, horsley of yale university made a study after the one which they discovered the thinning of fatty layer during catagen. http://horsley.yale.edu/sites/defaul...s/bsreview.pdf interestingly they further supported the importance of ADSC on hair. at many occasions they showed that mice lacking a proper fatty layer had had hair loss and early entry into catagen. the more intersting part is that " transplantation of adipocyte progenitor cells intradermally into the back skin of shaved mice at the extended 34 week telogen stage of the hair follicle cycle that occurs around 7 weeks of age resulted in adipocyte graft formation and corresponding precocious hair growth. Anagen was induced in these mice injected with the enriched adipocyte progenitor cells from WT or AZIP, but not with cells of the entire stromal vascular fraction. , supporting that the hair-inducing activity was specific
> for immature adipocyte lineage cells."
> 
> so transplantation of adepocyte progenitor cells intradermally cause the hair to enter anagen phase prematurely. most clinics that are studying this are working with SVF. the papaer notes that only immature cells are needed. according to this: http://stemcellassays.com/2013/05/breaking-fat-svf/ only 2 - 10% of SVF is stem cells. 
>  some of you brought the problem of migration adding this to the low concentration of the needed cells make it worse. 
> Dr.yates recently posted hair transplant results with an injection of SVF+prp after 7 months. either that the transplant was really really good or that SVF+prp played a big role in thickening the guy's hair. what do yo guys think? 
> 
> some notes before replying to this: 
> 1-I realize that yale study is on mice, but remember replicel, histogen, christiano, jahoda, lauster and everybody else worked with mice first. 
> ...


 
That's interesting about PRP. I guess there is some small benefit to PRP but I really am not very interested in PRP as it stands. Maybe they should try even more than 3 injections and see if say 6 or 7 injections improve on the results even more than 3 injections do. 

That aside, I still have concerns about injected ADSCs migrating out of the scalp after injection. Yhe world-class heart clinic working with ADSCs in The Caribbean indicated that studies show that essentially the ADSCs injected into hearts , and other tissue, migrated out of that tissue within 3 days. Some of the cells could still be found in the tissue at 5 weeks although it appears that the overwhelming majority of these cells migrate out of the tissue within 3 days. At the bottom of this email I will post the email from that heart clinic rep to me. 

I agree with you about SVF. I think it's a waste of time. Not only is there very little ADSCs in the mix but also some of the other things in the mix could actually inhibit the ADSCs. 

Based on all of the above I would say AAPE is our best bet for a near term solution. I do think that there's a chance that ADSCs might be effective but if the stay in the target area 3 days or less I think AAPE is the smarter choice between these 2. For one thing, the mere act of harvesting these cells, culturing them, and then re-implanting them is enough to throw them off-kilter for a short spell. The shock of hair transplants can affect the growth cycle of follicles so why not ADSCs? I can imagine that it could easily take 3 days or longer for the ADSCs to get re-acclimated after being harvested, cultured, and re-implanted back into the skin. I think that AAPE is the thinking man's selection over ADSCs since the cells migrate out of tissue rapidly. 

Also, thanks for the added Yale study demonstrating that the right cells alone can prompt hair growth in mice. It's another piece of evidence proving that AAPE is what we should be focusing on.

----------


## nameless

hgs1989 here again is that email from the ADSC heart clinic talking about how the ADSCs essentially leave the target area within 3 days:

ADRCs as well as mesenchymal cells (MSCs) from bone marrow,when delivered in the heart as well as other tissues and organs have generally migrated out of the target tissue after about three days though some can be found up to about five weeks. It is important to note that the primary way these cells regenerate and repair is through cell-to-cell signaling (paracrine effect). The cells can and do turn into other cells. That is why they are called adult stem cells. The differentiate into adipose, bone, cartilage etc. The cells “know” what tissue is needed so in the case of the heart they differentiate into heart muscle cells (cardiomyocytes). It is also important to note that while ADRCs have been found to grow new cardiomyocytes they are not enough to build new muscle but they appear to assist in improving pumping function. The most important mechanism for cardiac and other wound repair found with ADRCs is the growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis). These new bloods vessels support the main arteries and bring more blood  and oxygen to the lungs so the person can breathe better per the PRECISE trial (see data on maximum volume of oxygen consumption –mVO2).
What makes ADRCs “better” is that they have been found to be more abundant with cells that are more directly capable of stimulating the growth of new blood vessels as well as cardiomyocytes and are more potent later in life that bone marrow cells.

----------


## nameless

hgs did you see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrz3Rp4JwDM

----------


## nameless

hgs1989 I don't think that this could possibly be what we're looking for because these growth factors and proteins have to stored and formulated in specific ways in order for them to be effective. Even Dr. Aaron Gardner said they're unstable so I don't see how they could be put in a bottle and just sit on a shelf till someone buys them but I thought you might want to see this:

http://ymsconsulting.org/aape_faq.html

----------


## Alias123

Going for the Swiss Greek clinic next week

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> hgs did you see this:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrz3Rp4JwDM


 They could possibly be on to something, but it always bothers me to see a before photo taken with a flash and an after photo taken without a flash with the hair combed over the thin or balding area. 

Screen capture from the video:


35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## FearTheLoss

> They could possibly be on to something, but it always bothers me to see a before photo taken with a flash and an after photo taken without a flash with the hair combed over the thin or balding area. 
> 
> Screen capture from the video:
> Attachment 35234
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck


 
Dr. Greco uses CRP and has been having great success with it as well.

----------


## Kudu

> Dr. Greco uses CRP and has been having great success with it as well.


  I'm going for a CRP treatment this winter, hopefully it'll yield some results.

----------


## joachim

what is CRP?

----------


## nameless

> Dr. Greco uses CRP and has been having great success with it as well.


 I haven't heard about "great success" with CRP. 

Have they even analyzed CRP to see what's inside of it as far as growth factors go? The growth factors the prompt hair growth are very specific. They come from fat cells. CRP comes from blood. I'm skeptical. 

Also, CRP is something that's removed from PRP and we all know that PRP is sh!t.

----------


## Kudu

> what is CRP?


 In layman's terms, an updated version of PRP that is more pure, more growth factors, etc.

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## hgs1989

> In layman's terms, an updated version of PRP that is more pure, more growth factors, etc.


 please keep us informed about your results. how much is it anyway ?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> I haven't heard about "great success" with CRP. 
> 
> Have they even analyzed CRP to see what's inside of it as far as growth factors go? The growth factors the prompt hair growth are very specific. They come from fat cells. CRP comes from blood. I'm skeptical. 
> 
> Also, CRP is something that's removed from PRP and we all know that PRP is sh!t.


 
PRP is a very viable treatment. I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but it works, plain and simple. However, different doctors across the US have different techniques, people who haven't done extensive research into the field shouldn't be administering it. I am a very reliable member here, and I can tell you that PRP/CRP has stopped my shedding in its tracks as of right now.

----------


## LMS

> PRP is a very viable treatment. I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but it works, plain and simple. However, different doctors across the US have different techniques, people who haven't done extensive research into the field shouldn't be administering it. I am a very reliable member here, and I can tell you that PRP/CRP has stopped my shedding in its tracks as of right now.


 would you mind listing what exactly you had performed, who performed it and when?

Id be very interested in a treatment that simply halted my hairloss.

----------


## Swooping

> I haven't heard about "great success" with CRP. 
> 
> Have they even analyzed CRP to see what's inside of it as far as growth factors go? The growth factors the prompt hair growth are very specific. They come from fat cells. CRP comes from blood. I'm skeptical. 
> 
> Also, CRP is something that's removed from PRP and we all know that PRP is sh!t.


 You might look into the site now they have updated it I think. Got this link from someone else; http://prostemics.com/en/products/co...aape-for-hair/

They also mention it is "FDA otc approved" and it is being trialed in 200 clinics in japan or something. I would like some more proof that it works well though.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> would you mind listing what exactly you had performed, who performed it and when?
> 
> Id be very interested in a treatment that simply halted my hairloss.


 Dr Greco did my PRP/CRP about a month ago. It has for sure stopped my shedding and made my scalp feel healthier already. I know Dr. Wesley and Dr. Cole have been having success with PRP in some of their patients as well as they've adjusted their formulas. However I believe Dr. Greco is the best when it comes to the field of PRP.

----------


## LMS

> Dr Greco did my PRP/CRP about a month ago. It has for sure stopped my shedding and made my scalp feel healthier already. I know Dr. Wesley and Dr. Cole have been having success with PRP in some of their patients as well as they've adjusted their formulas. However I believe Dr. Greco is the best when it comes to the field of PRP.


 
Cheers mate

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Dr Greco did my PRP/CRP about a month ago. It has for sure stopped my shedding and made my scalp feel healthier already. I know Dr. Wesley and Dr. Cole have been having success with PRP in some of their patients as well as they've adjusted their formulas. However I believe Dr. Greco is the best when it comes to the field of PRP.


 It's great to hear PRP/CRP has improved your hair.

We encourage patients to use ACell/PRP during their hair transplant surgery.  When/if they return to our clinic within several months to a year, we will perform another HairCheck to compare hair mass index numbers in the areas where we did not place grafts.  If there is a significant improvement, we recommend they consider regular ACell/PRP treatments.  With all of our PRP patients, I have seen at least some improvement in hair mass index/hair shaft diameter.  This reality is like a big arrow pointing to the value of understanding the mechanics of how platelet growth factors are blocked from reaching follicles genetically predetermined to miniaturize.  

In one of his videos, Dr. Greco made an encouraging statement regarding PRP treatments.  He sees an improvement in hair quality "ratchet" forward over time.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## FearTheLoss

> It's great to hear PRP/CRP has improved your hair.
> 
> We encourage patients to use ACell/PRP during their hair transplant surgery.  When/if they return to our clinic within several months to a year, we will perform another HairCheck to compare hair mass index numbers in the areas where we did not place grafts.  If there is a significant improvement, we recommend they consider regular ACell/PRP treatments.  With all of our PRP patients, I have seen at least some improvement in hair mass index/hair shaft diameter.  This reality is like a big arrow pointing to the value of understanding the mechanics of how platelet growth factors are blocked from reaching follicles genetically predetermined to miniaturize.  
> 
> In one of his videos, Dr. Greco made an encouraging statement regarding PRP treatments.  He sees an improvement in hair quality "ratchet" forward over time.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck


 
So you're saying dr Coles prp is atleast maintaining hair for all of his prp patients?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> So you're saying dr Coles prp is atleast maintaining hair for all of his prp patients?


 As research continues to zero in on growth factors most beneficial to hair growth, we will surely be encouraging more men and women to have stand-alone PRP treatments.  The various studies are like puzzle pieces. A pretty clear image is beginning to emerge in spite of all the missing pieces/unknowns.  Just putting together what we learned from Cotsarelis and Valerie Horsley, it's clear that in MPB, there's a yet to be defined breakdown in a process that would normally lead to the production of platelet growth factors.  Genetically predetermined hairs become "starved" and miniaturize.

Theory is one thing but we do "rubber meets the road" studies to evaluate what actually gets results.  Other hair restoration physicians are doing the same.  Dr. Cole is currently attending an annual scientific meeting where hair restoration doctors collaborate from all over the world.

According to articles I've read related to Valerie Horsley's study, bald scalp in men have a somewhat depleted adipose layer. Aside from PRP treatments, could the answer to MPB be as simple as restoring a more female-like adipose layer in the balding areas of scalp?  I have noticed working here at Dr. Cole's that men using finasteride or dutasteride have a "spongier" scalp suggesting a better fatty layer than guys like me who only use Rogaine. Is adipose simply serving as a cell signalling medium?  Cotsarelis confirmed that bald scalp has a sufficient supply of stem cells but a marked shortage of progenitor cells.  Any way to stimulate the progenitor cell population?  What does PGD2 actually put in motion that inhibits hair growth?  Does it simply put normal hair cycles out of balance as Cotsarelis suggests? Lots of questions that need to be answered, but progress is being made. 

Although a rodent model, the following image is from Valerie Horsley's Yale study:


35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hgs1989

> Aside from PRP treatments, could the answer to MPB be as simple as restoring a more female-like adipose layer in the balding areas of scalp?


 This question is bugging me the most. it is simple to answer yet no body is doing it. fat grafts are used in body augmentation, why nobody has tried it on a scalp. The paper I posted says: "transplantation of adipocyte progenitor cells intradermally into the back skin of shaved mice at the extended 34 week telogen stage of the hair follicle cycle that occurs around 7 weeks of age resulted in adipocyte graft formation and corresponding precocious hair growth. Anagen was induced in these mice injected with the enriched adipocyte progenitor cells"
also the fat layer in our scalps requires wnt/b-catenin signaling to differentiate. and we know the role of dkk1 in inhibiting wnt signaling source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24706781 . we could overcome this problem with fat injections and see what happens.

----------


## clarence

> As research continues to zero in on growth factors most beneficial to hair growth, we will surely be encouraging more men and women to have stand-alone PRP treatments.  The various studies are like puzzle pieces. A pretty clear image is beginning to emerge in spite of all the missing pieces/unknowns.  Just putting together what we learned from Cotsarelis and Valerie Horsley, it's clear that in MPB, there's a yet to be defined breakdown in a process that would normally lead to the production of platelet growth factors.  Genetically predetermined hairs become "starved" and miniaturize.


 That's gonna take A LOT of research to justify the current price of PRP. We would be happier to see you encourage third parties to document consistent results, first off!!

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> This question is bugging me the most. it is simple to answer yet no body is doing it. fat grafts are used in body augmentation, why nobody has tried it on a scalp. The paper I posted says: "transplantation of adipocyte progenitor cells intradermally into the back skin of shaved mice at the extended 3–4 week telogen stage of the hair follicle cycle that occurs around 7 weeks of age resulted in adipocyte graft formation and corresponding precocious hair growth. Anagen was induced in these mice injected with the enriched adipocyte progenitor cells"
> also the fat layer in our scalps requires wnt/b-catenin signaling to differentiate. and we know the role of dkk1 in inhibiting wnt signaling source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24706781 . we could overcome this problem with fat injections and see what happens.


 Definitely worth a shot and I'm surprised that this hasn't been tried.  I haven't heard of it being tried anyway. Women wanting a small increase in breast size and a more natural result are getting fat transfer breast augmentation.  The listed possible complications are, infection, microcalcification, necrosis (death) of fat cells and the possibility that some of the transferred fat cells will migrate elsewhere.  Definitely an acceptable risk level as long as some of the more serious complications are rare.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> That's gonna take A LOT of research to justify the current price of PRP. We would be happier to see you encourage third parties to document consistent results, first off!!


 I agree, it is expensive.  The disposable cartridge for a top end blood spinner alone, cost upwards of $300.  Although Dr. Cole has moved quite a few grafts into some needy areas of my scalp, he hasn't yet offered me free PRP   :Smile: .  We recommend PRP at the time a patient has hair transplant surgery.  If the hair mass index in non-transplanted areas show a significant spike 8 months to a year after it's administered, we will recommend ongoing PRP treatments.  Our PRP results have improved over time as the formula has been improved.  The addition of CRP could be a game changer. 

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## 35YrsAfter

Valerie Horsleys Yale study cited evidence of the role adipose plays in cell communication that ultimately leads to the production of platelet derived growth factors (PDGF).  Although obviously not a cure, low-level laser (light) therapy (LLLT) has been shown to improve hair growth.  See study posted on the PubMed.gov website. 

Recent studies suggest that LLLT's effectiveness relates to it improving cell signaling. This lends credibly to the comments related to adipose signalling in Valerie's Yale study.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## FearTheLoss

does Dr. Cole offer LLLT?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> does Dr. Cole offer LLLT?


 No, not at this time.  Dr. Cole does recognize the effectiveness of LLLT but the treatments clinics offer can be expensive for patients.  For some men with hair loss, money is no object. Even in those cases, often times the best option in Dr. Cole's opinion is the Lasercap or Capillus.  It's more convenient to use because you own it and don't have to take time out of your schedule to have treatments done at a doctor's office.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## nameless

> They could possibly be on to something, but it always bothers me to see a before photo taken with a flash and an after photo taken without a flash with the hair combed over the thin or balding area. 
> 
> Screen capture from the video:
> Attachment 35234
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck


 
* I agree that it looks like they combed hair over a thinning area in the after picture, but not so sure I agree that we should be concerned with the flash issue. 

* On the issue of the obvious comb-over, does it look like the same comb-over could have been achieved as effectively with the amount of hair in the before pic? I ask because if I got back say 40% of my lost hair that would be enough to make it possible for me to look like I have a lot of hair if I used illusory tactics the same as the guy in the before and after did. BUT with the amount of hair I presently have even illusory tactics would not make me look like I have a lot of hair. My point is that perhaps at the stage of the before pic the subject would not have been able to produce that same effect so he did not bother to try, but by the time of the after pic he gained enough thickness that he could produce that effect with illusory tactics so he did. 

*If I got back enough hair that I could make myself look a lot better, but I didn't get back all of my hair, then I would take advantage of the fact that I got enough back to make myself look better and I would use illusory tactics to achieve the best possible look.  


Would you please talk to Dr. Cole about adipose tissue implantation for treating hair loss? They are implanting fat all over people's bodies except nobody is trying it on the scalp. We need to try this. Yes there's a company doing small amounts of SVF, which comes from fat, but they are adding only a small amount of tissue. It would probably be better to implant larger amounts of fat tissue into balding scalp tissue as a test. Balding scalp has not lost just a little fat compared to scalp that is growing full thickness terminal hairs. Balding scalp is missing a significant amount of fat tissue. In order to find out if simply adding fat tissue would reverse hair loss you would want to add a significant amount of fat tissue. You would want to restore the fat layer to the same layer it was prior to hair loss. I understand that you wouldn't want to try this on a person because nobody knows it it will work, but you can get balding scalp tissue that's not attached to a person and try it on that tissue. We need this tested.

----------


## Alias123

http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Sci-T...ticleId=122260

old news or is this new info?

----------


## hellouser

> http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Sci-T...ticleId=122260
> 
> old news or is this new info?


 Another study on mice.... sigh.

----------


## nameless

> http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Sci-T...ticleId=122260
> 
> old news or is this new info?


 I don't know if it's new or not, but it looks very interesting just the same. I think you should inform the doctors doing your hair treatments about this and ask them if they are adding platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDGF-D) to the culture. 

I think it looks like platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDGF-D) improves the results.

----------


## macbeth81

> http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Sci-T...ticleId=122260
> 
> old news or is this new info?


 The mice were shaved and the Adipose-derived stem cells accelerated hair growth significantly. I don't see how this grows new hairs or rejuvenates miniaturized hairs. Seems more beneficial for women who want to grow their hair faster. Also the three to five years comment is classic.

----------


## nameless

> The mice were shaved and the Adipose-derived stem cells accelerated hair growth significantly. I don't see how this grows new hairs or rejuvenates miniaturized hairs. Seems more beneficial for women who want to grow their hair faster. Also the three to five years comment is classic.


 macbeth, this is one way you test whether or not a treatment will regrow miniaturized hairs. If it accelerates hair growth on mice then that means it's boosting the growing phase (anagen) and if it can boost anagen in miniaturized hairs on humans too that could result in miniaturized hairs getting longer and thicker. Do you understand?

What they accomplished is a VERY promising. I think we should be looking at adipose derived stem cells in combo with platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDGF-D.

----------


## zeos

> I did email them at all of the email addresses you gave me.


 any news on this? 




> Going for the Swiss Greek clinic next week


 so, what happened ?

----------


## nameless

zeos they didn't respond to me. I sent info all over the place. I never stop trying.

----------


## zeos

> zeos they didn't respond to me. I sent info all over the place. I never stop trying.


 ok,do me a favour and send the email to the clinic and the laboratory one more  time on wednesday at 10:00 am-12:00 pm athens time ( http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/greece/athens ) ,i will call them in the afternoon or the next day and ask them  if they have received your email,give me only the title of your email

----------


## nameless

> ok,do me a favour and send the email to the clinic and the laboratory one more  time on wednesday at 10:00 am-12:00 pm athens time ( http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/greece/athens ) ,i will call them in the afternoon or the next day and ask them  if they have received your email,give me only the title of your email


 
Happy to. Please give me their email addresses again, and again tell me exactly what you want me to tell them about. I ask what you want me to tell them about because I have to go through my "sent" box to find the correct emails I already sent to them and since I send out a lot of emails it would help my search if you told me what is the subject matter I am looking for to re-send.

----------


## zeos

> Happy to. Please give me their email addresses again, and again tell me exactly what you want me to tell them about. I ask what you want me to tell them about because I have to go through my "sent" box to find the correct emails I already sent to them and since I send out a lot of emails it would help my search if you told me what is the subject matter I am looking for to re-send.


 read my post here:
https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...=16196&page=51

it's important to send them the same email,if i'm right you sent them the email(clinic + laboratory) between 09-25-2014 and 09-27-2014,search your ''sent'' box and give me the subject-title of your email

----------


## nameless

Zeos I contacted theracell by way of their site's contact form.  Here is the proof I contacted them - they responded saying they got my inquiry but they never answered my inquiry: 

Thank you for contacting Theracell.

A member of our team will contact you soon regarding your inquiry.

For your records we forward you the details of your message.


Your email: Russell-claudia2011@hotmail.com
Your telephone: ###############
You are a: A health care professional
Subject: Adipose Derived Stem Cells & hair growth
Message Body:
Im seeing more and more that people are injecting adipose derived stem cells into the scalp to treat hair loss. Im wondering if adipose derived stem cells would even stay locally in the scalp where they are injected or if they would disperse out of the area?? If they dont stay in the scalp then they cant ameliorate hair loss. If they leave the scalp area then they cant promote hair growth in the scalp. Please respond.

--
This e-mail was sent automatically because you sent an inquiry through a contact form on Theracell's web site. Please do not reply to this message.

----------


## nameless

Here is a copy of an email I sent to info@vitamelia.gr:

Dear Vitamelia

I read about your hair loss treatment to implant fat stem cells (adipose derived stem cells) from fat and then implant the cells into scalp where hair is thinning. But if you implant fat stem cells into the scalp they could migrate out of the scalp and instead travel through the entire body. But if instead of injecting the fat stem cells you inject the growth factors and proteins instead that could solve the problem. There is a south Korean company that makes a produce called AAPE that I wish you would consider offering to hair loss customers like me. Here is a study article about AAPE and the study tells the name of the South Korean company where you can get AAPE. Please read this study and please offer AAPE injections to hair loss customers like me. Here is the study:

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf


Please consider acquiring the AAPE from the south Korean company and mixing it with other ingredients just like the doctors in the study did. Please put together the exact same formula from the exact same company because this formula worked well for all of the patients.

The things about the fat stem cells is that after they are injected into the scalp they don't stay in the scalp. They leave the scalp and travel throughout the body. Once the fat stem cells leave the scalp they no longer excrete their growth factors and proteins into the scalp area. But AAPE is the same growth factors and proteins that the fat stem cells excrete so if you inject AAPE instead of the fat stem cells then you will get the right growth factors and proteins into the scalp. AAPE is the same growth factors and proteins that the fat stem cells excrete so by injecting AAPE into the scalp you won't need to inject the fat stem cells because AAPE is the same growth factors and stem cells.  So Just use AAPE and the other ingredients that the doctors in the study used and then you won't have to inject the fat stem cells and you won't have to worry that the fat stem cells travel out of the scalp.

Please respond

----------


## nameless

Sometimes I send them my requests by using the contact forms at their site. I just sent Dr. Athanasios Christopoulos another message using his site's contact form. Here is the message I just sent him:

I read about your hair loss treatment implanting adipose derived stem cells into balding scalp. These cells could migrate out of the scalp. But if instead of injecting the cells you inject the growth factors and proteins that could solve that problem. There is a south Korean company that makes a product called AAPE and I would like you to offer to hair loss customers. Here is a study article about AAPE. The study tells the name of the South Korean company where you can get AAPE:

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

If you will start offering AAPE please and mix it with other ingredients the same as the doctors in the study did. And also please add platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D) since it appears to increase growth. Here is an article about that:

http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Sci-T...ticleId=122260

----------


## nameless

I just sent messages to 3 different places.  I sent a message to theracel, Dr. Athanansios Christopoulos, and info@vitamelia.gr

I got all of these contacts from you. It is now 5:57 PM on the Washington state coast where I live. I'm north of Oregon and California on the west coast of the USA in case you want to know my geographical location. I sent them these messages between 5:30 PM and 5:57 PM Pacific Coast time.

----------


## nameless

I think that based on Alias's link to a study about platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D) these doctors should think about adding this substance. It increased hair growth dramatically. What do you think of platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D).

----------


## Alias123

Nameless can I get your contact details since I'm going there we could talk to them, I was supposed to go there 2 weeks ago but had to much studies! So I'm going in 2/3 weeks

----------


## zeos

@nameless

- laboratory:
they haven't received anything it seems their site's contact form has a problem,
so  they gave me a new address, send a new email to info@theracell.gr  ,

but please rewrite your text and add more information(everything you have),i told you to include in your emai also the vitamelia site(in greek and translated in english)so that they can understand what are you talking about and ask them what are they offering :AAPE or ADSC(this is the key question)
and the best part ,they told me you should give them also your telephone number after reading your email they will call you immediately back

 - clinic :
same as above,they haven't received anything it seems their site's contact form has also a problem,
so  they gave me a new address, send a new email to anaplasis@a-a.gr  ,

but please rewrite your text and add more information(everything you have),i told you to include in your emai also the vitamelia site(in greek and translated in english)so that they can understand what are you talking about and ask them what are they offering :AAPE or ADSC(this is the key question)

after reading your email they will will respond to you within the next few days,they told me also if you have further questions you can call them(there are no language barriers),the secretary will arrange a telephone appointment with the doctor

----------


## nameless

> @nameless
> 
> - laboratory:
> they haven't received anything it seems their site's contact form has a problem,
> so  they gave me a new address, send a new email to info@theracell.gr  ,
> 
> but please rewrite your text and add more information(everything you have),i told you to include in your emai also the vitamelia site(in greek and translated in english)so that they can understand what are you talking about and ask them what are they offering :AAPE or ADSC(this is the key question)
> and the best part ,they told me you should give them also your telephone number after reading your email they will call you immediately back
> 
> ...


 I get Wednesdays off so today is a day off for me. I have been gone all day. I will look all of this over tomorrow and send out new emails tomorrow (Thursday) after I get off work. You can count on it.

----------


## nameless

> @nameless
> 
> - laboratory:
> they haven't received anything it seems their site's contact form has a problem,
> so  they gave me a new address, send a new email to info@theracell.gr  ,
> 
> but please rewrite your text and add more information(everything you have),i told you to include in your emai also the vitamelia site(in greek and translated in english)so that they can understand what are you talking about and ask them what are they offering :AAPE or ADSC(this is the key question)
> and the best part ,they told me you should give them also your telephone number after reading your email they will call you immediately back
> 
> ...


 
I do not understand what you are saying about the email addresses. 

* For example, are you saying that info@theracell.gr  , is an email address with or without the comma at the end after an extra space? 

* Also, I don't understand what you are saying about vitamelia.

----------


## nameless

zeos, My computer internet service provider hasn't been working for days so I haven't been able to re-send the information to the clinics and labs.

After thinking about it I've decided that it would be best if you sent them the emails.  I have sent them emails repeatedly and they aren't responding to my emails. And now you are giving me new emails to re-send the emails that I have already sent multiple times. Frankly, I'm tired of sending the same emails to the same people over and over and over again. Plus, I don't fully understand your instructions how to send them the emails again anyway. You should just send the emails since they are not getting my emails. 

In your emails tell them this:

I read about that you treat hair loss by implanting adipose derived stem cells into balding scalp. But I have it from a leading authority that if you implant adipose derived stem cells these cells could migrate out of the tissue that they are injected into.  I wrote an email to the famous OKYANOS HEART INSTITUTE in The Bahamas and asked them about this issue and here in quotations is the email they sent to me:

"ADRCs as well as mesenchymal cells (MSCs) from bone marrow,when delivered in the heart as well as other tissues and organs have generally migrated out of the target tissue after about three days though some can be found up to about five weeks. It is important to note that the primary way these cells regenerate and repair is through cell-to-cell signaling (paracrine effect). The cells can and do turn into other cells. That is why they are called adult stem cells. The differentiate into adipose, bone, cartilage etc. The cells “know” what tissue is needed so in the case of the heart they differentiate into heart muscle cells (cardiomyocytes). It is also important to note that while ADRCs have been found to grow new cardiomyocytes they are not enough to build new muscle but they appear to assist in improving pumping function. The most important mechanism for cardiac and other wound repair found with ADRCs is the growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis). These new bloods vessels support the main arteries and bring more blood  and oxygen to the lungs so the person can breathe better per the PRECISE trial (see data on maximum volume of oxygen consumption –mVO2).
What makes ADRCs “better” is that they have been found to be more abundant with cells that are more directly capable of stimulating the growth of new blood vessels as well as cardiomyocytes and are more potent later in life that bone marrow cells."

So the problem is that if you inject these adipose derived stem cells into the scalp they will probably migrate out of the scalp area rapidly.  But there appears to be a solution. Instead of injecting the adipose derived stem cells you could instead inject the growth factors and proteins that the adipose derived stem cells excrete. These growth factors and proteins are the substances in the adipose derived stem cells which cause hair to grow anyway so why not simply inject the growth factors and proteins instead? In either case you would have to do repeated injections once every couple weeks until the hair is satisfactorily improved, and then perhaps once ever 4 to 6 months for maintenance after the hair is satisfactorily improved. But if you do repeat injections of adipose derived stem cells that would be very costly and it might not work because the cells migrate out of the scalp area so rapidly. But if you simply inject the growth factors and proteins that would give the follicles a good bath of these growth factors and proteins, and the growth factors and proteins are much more economical to acquire and inject. 

Below is a study which tells all about the efficacy of these growth factors and proteins. In this study it will even disclose where you can get the solution of these growth factors and proteins from a Seoul South Korean company called Prostemics Co, Ltd (Seoul, Korea). The substance is called AAPE.  The study also explains that the doctors in the study used some other hair nourishing ingredients in combination with the AAPE (from the Seoul Korea company) to create a mixture they called HARG.  I think it would be best to inject HARG once every 2 weeks perhaps until hair acquires satisfactory improvement and then once every 4 - 6 months after that for maintenance. 

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

If you will start offering this HARG treatment please let me know . And also please add platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D) since it appears to accelerate growth. Here is an article about 
how adding platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D) to AAPE accelerates hair growth faster than AAPE alone. 

http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Sci-T...ticleId=122260

----------


## zeos

''I read about that you treat hair loss by implanting adipose derived stem cells into balding scalp''

how do you know?
did you read the vitamelia site carefully?
https://translate.google.de/translat...ara&edit-text=

''A new medical technique for hair regeneration using stem cells solves in men and women with thin hair and thinning. Treatment is based on the isolation of a large number of proteins, which are released from the stem cells of fat. .....'' 

before assuming that they are offering  ADSC  we should ask them first what treatment is offered at the clinic-laboratory: ADSC or AAPE ?

rewrite your email and i will send it for you but for further questions you will contact them(email,telephone etc...)because you have the knowledge of the issue

----------


## nameless

> ''I read about that you treat hair loss by implanting adipose derived stem cells into balding scalp''
> 
> how do you know?
> did you read the vitamelia site carefully?
> https://translate.google.de/translat...ara&edit-text=
> 
> ''A new medical technique for hair regeneration using stem cells solves in men and women with thin hair and thinning. Treatment is based on the isolation of a large number of proteins, which are released from the stem cells of fat. .....'' 
> 
> before assuming that they are offering  ADSC  we should ask them first what treatment is offered at the clinic-laboratory: ADSC or AAPE ?
> ...


 I know that some of the clinics are offering ADSCs whereas some are offering some form of growth factors and proteins. I worded that email for the clinics that are offering ADSCs. I will write another email for the clinics that are offering growth factors and proteins and I will post that new email so you can send it. Please send the clinics that are offering ADSCs the email I have already posted. We may as well contact as many clinics as possible.

----------


## nameless

Zeios here I have re-written the email to ask the right questions and better explain the information to the company that may be injecting proteins instead of fat cells. Look this email over and please send it to them.

Dear clinic,

Are you injecting fat cells to treat hair loss or are you injecting the proteins from fat cells to treat hair loss? Or perhaps do you offer two different treatments and one treatment is injecting fat cells and the other treatment is injecting proteins from fat cells?

If one treatment is injecting fat cells I wish to inform you something I have learned from a leading authority that if you implant fat cells these cells could migrate out of the tissue that they are injected into. I wrote an email to the famous OKYANOS HEART INSTITUTE in The Bahamas and asked them about this issue and here in quotations is the email they sent to me:

"ADRCs as well as mesenchymal cells (MSCs) from bone marrow,when delivered in the heart as well as other tissues and organs have generally migrated out of the target tissue after about three days though some can be found up to about five weeks. It is important to note that the primary way these cells regenerate and repair is through cell-to-cell signaling (paracrine effect). The cells can and do turn into other cells. That is why they are called adult stem cells. The differentiate into adipose, bone, cartilage etc. The cells know what tissue is needed so in the case of the heart they differentiate into heart muscle cells (cardiomyocytes). It is also important to note that while ADRCs have been found to grow new cardiomyocytes they are not enough to build new muscle but they appear to assist in improving pumping function. The most important mechanism for cardiac and other wound repair found with ADRCs is the growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis). These new bloods vessels support the main arteries and bring more blood and oxygen to the lungs so the person can breathe better per the PRECISE trial (see data on maximum volume of oxygen consumption mVO2). What makes ADRCs better is that they have been found to be more abundant with cells that are more directly capable of stimulating the growth of new blood vessels as well as cardiomyocytes and are more potent later in life that bone marrow cells."

I know it sounds like the above email so that injecting cells can be better but that is for growing new blood cells, not growing hair. The problem is that if you inject fat cells into the scalp they will likely migrate out of the scalp area rapidly before they get a chance to excrete much of the hair nourishing proteins and growth factors. But there appears to be a solution to this problem. Instead of injecting the fat cells you could instead inject the proteins and growth factors that the fat cells excrete to make hair grow. Since these proteins and growth factors are the substances in the fat cells which make hair grow anyway it only makes sense to inject the proteins and growth factors instead since injected fat cells likely migrate out of the scalp area before they get a chance to excrete much of the proteins and growth factors that make hair grow. But if you inject the proteins and growth factors instead then those injected proteins and growth factors would start working immediately to make hair grow from the moment they are injected into the skin. To reiterate: if you inject the cells then one has to wait for the cells to excrete the proteins and growth factors that grow hair and the cells likely migrate out of the scalp before they excrete much proteins and growth factors. But if you inject the proteins and growth factors they immediately start working to improve the follicles. 

You would have to do repeated injections once every couple weeks until the hair is satisfactorily improved, and then perhaps once ever 4 to 6 months for maintenance after the hair is satisfactorily improved. But if you do repeat injections of fat cells that would be very costly and it might not work because the cells migrate out of the scalp area so rapidly. But if you simply inject the proteins and growth factors then the proteins and growth factors would give the follicles a good bath of these proteins and growth factors, and the proteins and growth factors are much more economical to acquire and inject. 

But it's best to use the exact correct proteins and growth factors. Below is a study which tells the correct proteins and growth factors and it tells about the efficacy of these proteins and growth factors. In this study it will even disclose where you can get the perfect solution of the correct proteins and growth factors from a Seoul South Korean company named Prostemics Co, Ltd. The correct proteins and growth factors are in their mixture called AAPE. And if you read the study carefully the study also explains that the doctors in the study mixed some other hair nourishing ingredients into the AAPE to create a mixture they called HARG. I think it would be best to also mix the same ingredients into the AAPE to create HARG and then inject HARG once every 2 weeks until hair achieves satisfactory improvement, and then once every 4 - 6 months after that for maintenance. But it's very important to use the correct proteins and growth factors, and the Seoul Korea company (Prostemics Co, Ltd) appears to have created the correct mix of the right proteins and growth factors. 

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

If you will start offering this HARG treatment please let me know . And also please add platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D) since it appears to accelerate growth. Here is an article about how adding platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D) to AAPE accelerates hair growth faster than AAPE alone. 

http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Sci-T...ticleId=122260

----------


## nameless

zeos I hope you are going to send my latest email in my latest post to the clinics that you and I are discussing.

----------


## zeos

> zeos I hope you are going to send my latest email in my latest post to the clinics that you and I are discussing.


 Don't worry,i sent them the emails on thursday morning, we must now wait for their response

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## nameless

Alias please say this to the clinic that is treating your hair loss with ADSCs.


Since you are injecting adipose derived stem cells to treat hair loss I wish to inform you about something I have learned from a leading authority who tells me that if you implant fat cells these cells could migrate out of the tissue that they are injected into. I wrote an email to the famous OKYANOS HEART INSTITUTE in The Bahamas and asked them about this issue and here in quotations is the email they sent to me:

"ADRCs as well as mesenchymal cells (MSCs) from bone marrow,when delivered in the heart as well as other tissues and organs have generally migrated out of the target tissue after about three days though some can be found up to about five weeks. It is important to note that the primary way these cells regenerate and repair is through cell-to-cell signaling (paracrine effect). The cells can and do turn into other cells. That is why they are called adult stem cells. The differentiate into adipose, bone, cartilage etc. The cells know what tissue is needed so in the case of the heart they differentiate into heart muscle cells (cardiomyocytes). It is also important to note that while ADRCs have been found to grow new cardiomyocytes they are not enough to build new muscle but they appear to assist in improving pumping function. The most important mechanism for cardiac and other wound repair found with ADRCs is the growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis). These new bloods vessels support the main arteries and bring more blood and oxygen to the lungs so the person can breathe better per the PRECISE trial (see data on maximum volume of oxygen consumption mVO2). What makes ADRCs better is that they have been found to be more abundant with cells that are more directly capable of stimulating the growth of new blood vessels as well as cardiomyocytes and are more potent later in life that bone marrow cells."

I know that it sounds like maybe injecting adipose derived stem cells can be effective but that is for growing new blood cells, not growing hair. The problem is that if you inject fat cells into the scalp they will likely migrate out of the scalp area rapidly before they get a chance to excrete enough of the proteins and growth factors that grow hair. But there appears to be a solution to this problem. Instead of injecting the fat cells you could instead inject the proteins and growth factors that the fat cells excrete to make hair grow. Since these proteins and growth factors are the substances in the fat cells which make hair grow anyway it only makes sense to inject the proteins and growth factors instead since injected fat cells could migrate out of the scalp before they get a chance to excrete much of those proteins and growth factors that make hair grow. But if you inject the proteins and growth factors instead then those injected proteins and growth factors would start working immediately to make hair grow from the moment they are injected into the skin. To reiterate: if you inject the cells then you have to wait for the cells to excrete the proteins and growth factors that grow hair, and the cells likely migrate out of the scalp before they can excrete much of those growth factors and proteins. But if you inject the proteins and growth factors instead then they immediately start working to improve the follicles. 

You would have to do repeated injections of those growth factors and proteins once every couple weeks until the hair is satisfactorily improved, and then perhaps once every 4 to 6 months for maintenance after the hair is satisfactorily improved. But if you do repeat injections of fat cells that would be very costly and it might not work because the cells migrate out of the scalp area so rapidly. But if you simply inject the proteins and growth factors then the proteins and growth factors would immediately give the follicles a good bath of these proteins and growth factors. Plus the proteins and growth factors are much less expensive to acquire and inject. 

But it's best to use the exact correct proteins and growth factors. Below is a study which tells the correct proteins and growth factors and it tells about the efficacy of these proteins and growth factors. In this study it will even disclose where you can get the perfect solution of the correct proteins and growth factors from a Seoul South Korean company named Prostemics Co, Ltd. The correct proteins and growth factors are in their mixture called AAPE. And if you read the study carefully the study also explains that the doctors in the study mixed some other hair nourishing ingredients into the AAPE to create a mixture they called HARG. I think it would be best to also mix the same ingredients into the AAPE to create HARG and then inject HARG once every 2 weeks until hair achieves satisfactory improvement, and then once every 4 - 6 months after that for maintenance. But it's very important to use the correct proteins and growth factors, and the Seoul Korea company (Prostemics Co, Ltd) appears to have created the correct mix of the right proteins and growth factors. 

http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf

If you will start offering this HARG treatment please let me know . And also please add platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D) since it appears to accelerate growth. Here is an article about how adding platelet-derived growth factor-D (PDG-D) to AAPE accelerates hair growth faster than AAPE alone. 

http://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Sci-T...ticleId=122260

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## Alias123

Hey everyone, i went to the swiss/greek clinic 2 weeks ago and this is what happened:
Representatives from the clinic picked me up from the airport and took me to a nice 4 star hotel where they sat me down and talked about my expectations and the procedure etc, it was all very comforting and i felt like i was in good hands.
Next morning the representative picked me up from the hotel and took me to the clinic where i was sedated and they extracted the stem cells from my abdominal area ( as i litteraly dont have any body fat there they took some from the sides of my stocmach aswelll) Later when i woke up i was a bit sore and had to wait 2-3 hours before the stem cells were cultivated in the right manner, and after this i had a talk with the surgeon performing the operation and the stem cells where injected in my head. I was given pretty stong painkillers afterwards and after the clinic took me back to the hotel i fell asleep pretty quickly following a light late lunch.
The next stay the clinic gave me a guide and showed me around the city which was very nice to make the trip a little less evolved around the surgery. 
To conclude my visit at this clinic i would say im very happy this far.
since the laws of this new treatments forbid the clinic to make any legal guarantees but i do have a contract that ensures me if i have further loss within 6 months i have the same treatment for free since they have my stem cells saved now. Everything in the trip was included, transport+ hotel+ tourguide+medicin etc. It was 1000x times more serious and proffesional then the DDR heinrich clinic in vienna... Anyway, in 3 months when i take my after photos i will compare with the before photos to see if there is any difference. So ill be back in 3 months in the meanwhile if you have any questions im happy to answer ( though i cant answer anything about the science behind it or anything like that, since im not that cunning in the subject, all i know was that they took 100cc of fat tissue and i got 2 different stem cells injected. 
/ Alias123

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## zeos

@Alias123 

happy to hear that they are professionals,
could you give us the names of the plastic surgeon,clinic,laboratory etc...

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## bananana

@alias123 - a month passed, any update?

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## DepressedByHairLoss

I found out about a stem celll clinic here in the United States that supposedly uses autologous adipose stem cells to regrow hair.  Here is the link: http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells.  I contacted them except I became suspicious; when I asked for before/after photos, they said they could not release any photos due to patient confidentiality rules.

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## bananana

> I found out about a stem celll clinic here in the United States that supposedly uses autologous adipose stem cells to regrow hair.  Here is the link: http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells.  I contacted them except I became suspicious; when I asked for before/after photos, they said they could not release any photos due to patient confidentiality rules.


 Very fishy.

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## Alias123

Hey, yes a month has passed and i cant say that there is any major improvement.. i definitely think it has stopped the loss in the front, but no regrowth yet. I am feeling small dots in the forehead are but i have no idea what that mean. I will update when im more confident about the results

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## bananana

> Hey, yes a month has passed and i cant say that there is any major improvement.. i definitely think it has stopped the loss in the front, but no regrowth yet. I am feeling small dots in the forehead are but i have no idea what that mean. I will update when im more confident about the results


 Hopefully those dots are sprouting hairs. I believe it takes at least 3 months to see the real progress!
Good luck and keep us posted.

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## quality

never posted before, looked on here for 7+ years. found this- http://www.coquelicot.co.jp/e/treatm...ir_growth.html. What do you guys think.

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## Hairismylife

> never posted before, looked on here for 7+ years. found this- http://www.coquelicot.co.jp/e/treatm...ir_growth.html. What do you guys think.


 Okay we are cured!! (I really hope that I can scream out one day)

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## hellouser

> Okay we are cured!! (I really hope that I can scream out one day)


 In 5 years.

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## Trenblastoise

> never posted before, looked on here for 7+ years. found this- http://www.coquelicot.co.jp/e/treatm...ir_growth.html. What do you guys think.


 Negative. They say the inject "_balanced ****tails of minerals and vitamins into your scalp with a focus on bio-stem cell that work for everyone_"

Then they go on to say: "Propecia drug for internal use, ultra-high-concentration vitamin C drip,
and Minoxidil application"

Most of us now know that Propecia isn't a drug you want to take. It inhibits DHT, usually lowers your libido. And can cause permanent impotence even if you discontinue usage. We also know Minoxidil is a temporary drug and after about 2 years, you are back on scratch, perhaps with some extra wrinkles since it dries out your skin.

I still think Hair transplant is currently the best you can do, given you actually have enough hair to perform it. And other than that sit tight for stem cell research to figure it out whenever that's going to be.

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## yayay

Hi Alias123,

I hope your stemcells treatment is going great,

I'd have some questions about it though,

Could I reach you by e-mail ?

It would be so kind of you,

Thanks a lot!

You can join me at pico-bello@hotmail.fr

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## lifelonglearning

Has anyone tried this kind of treatment?

Their are quite a few doctors offering this treatment alongside prp

http://newinhairtransplant.com.au/pl...amplified-prp/

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## nameless

Has anyone heard from Alias 123 or Moleular? 

They were both posting quite a bit and then they both got ADSC injections and now they're both gone.

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## lifelonglearning

update - Follow-up With Trichograms http://www.eplasty.com/images/PDF/eplasty15e10.pdf

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## hellouser

> update - Follow-up With Trichograms http://www.eplasty.com/images/PDF/eplasty15e10.pdf


 Those results are better than histogens.

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## nameless

> update - Follow-up With Trichograms http://www.eplasty.com/images/PDF/eplasty15e10.pdf


 I've been saying all along that this AAPE stuff is a promising treatment. 

I don't like the ADSCs because they migrate out of the area they're injected into. You keep do repeat ADSC injections but that would be expensive and laborious, but the AAPE solution can be injected and re-injected many times with satisfactory convenience.

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## Jordan Michael

Read the study posted by lifelonglearning. Very interesting. On the short term this looks one of the most hopeful treatments i think. This study deserves a new thread...

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## Alias123

forget this guys, i did the treatment twice at the best facilities for over 12.000 , dont waste your time thank me later!

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## Hairismylife

> forget this guys, i did the treatment twice at the best facilities for over 12.000 €, dont waste your time thank me later!


 You demonstrated that theoretical result can be not in line with practical result.
This makes me sad because Follicept can fail too.

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## iamanidiot

is the paper above a fake? i searched in pubmed and i didn't find nothing... it seems like an advertising paper-like. am i wrong??

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## nameless

> forget this guys, i did the treatment twice at the best facilities for over 12.000 , dont waste your time thank me later!


 Alias did you do the Growth Factor injections called AAPE or did you do the adipose derived stem cells? There is a difference between the growth factors (AAPE) and adipose derived stem cells. My recollection is that you chose the cells rather than the AAPE.

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## hellouser

> forget this guys, i did the treatment twice at the best facilities for over 12.000 , dont waste your time thank me later!


 Didnt you have ADSC injections? AAPE is not the same.

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## zeos

what's the exact difference between ADSC and AAPE ?

is it possible to use follicept  instead of injections for  ADSC/AAPE ?


some more information about AAPE:
http://www.buykorea.org/product-deta...205.html#pdi01

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## hellouser

> what's the exact difference between ADSC and AAPE ?
> 
> is it possible to use follicept  instead of injections for  ADSC/AAPE ?
> 
> 
> some more information about AAPE:
> http://www.buykorea.org/product-deta...205.html#pdi01


 AFAIK;

ADSC = stem cells
AAPE = growth factors

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## nameless

> what's the exact difference between ADSC and AAPE ?
> 
> is it possible to use follicept  instead of injections for  ADSC/AAPE ?
> 
> 
> some more information about AAPE:
> http://www.buykorea.org/product-deta...205.html#pdi01


 I have not seen one study showing that ADSCs grow hair but I have seen numerous studies showing AAPE grows hair. 

Like Hellouser said, AAPE = growth factors and ADSCs = cells.

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## Reign

Is there anyone in the US even offering AAPE as a treatment?

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## hellouser

> Is there anyone in the US even offering AAPE as a treatment?


 No.

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## Mshape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQHWW4GQxyU

There is a hope.....



> http://www.balancehairrestoration.co...stem-cells.pdf
> 
> check it out really amazing results are show. it also mention the procedure can be done with current technology. several sessions are required. trichoscan showed 83&#37; increase in hairs (see figure.7 before treatment 29 hairs in the area and after 53. (53-29)/29 = 83%). full head pictures are also available.figure.3 shows a male without fin and figure 4 shows another on fin, but I doubt that fin would make that difference in 6 months.  sad it is not approved by the FDA. but why ? it is similar to ACell + prp. it is like histogen on steroids. any how check it out. there are clinics doing research on other treatment adipose-derived stem cell without the protein extract thing. http://www.stemcellrevolution.com/cu...r-restoration/

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## hellouser

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQHWW4GQxyU
> 
> There is a hope.....


 Old news. Also, we havent heard from Tsuji Labs in a very long time.

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## liba

> Old news. Also, we havent heard from Tsuji Labs in a very long time.


 Tsuji is now working in a tissue engineering company if I remember correctly, it has hair regeneration as one of their goals but I don't see what the heck they are doing right now, seems they have been dicking around for ages.

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## zeos

> No.


 Are you sure about that?

''... The brand AAPE is approved by dermatologists and medical professionals in Korea, Japan and *USA*.''

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## hellouser

> Are you sure about that?
> 
> ''... The brand AAPE is approved by dermatologists and medical professionals in Korea, Japan and *USA*.''


 You won't find any place that you, as a consumer, can go into and say 'I'd like a treatment for my hair using AAPE.'

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## Reign

Unfortunate. Not in Europe or Asia as well?

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## DepressedByHairLoss

http://www.nehair.com/stem-cells

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## Hicks

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25834689

Seen this on another forum.  Not sure if it was posted here yet

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## Sogeking

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25834689
> 
> Seen this on another forum.  Not sure if it was posted here yet


 There definitely might be something here. However when and where could one even consider getting AAPE treatment. No one is offering it...

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## downandout

Is this something that would have to undergo 3 phases of trials?
http://www.eplasty.com/images/PDF/eplasty15e10.pdf

The above article states that "Adipose-derived stem cell-conditioned medium is rich in growth factors such as vascular endothelial growth factor, hepatocyte growth factor, platelet-derived growth factor, and insulin-like growth factor. Vascular endothelial growth factor controls hair growth and follicle size through angiogenesis. Hepatocyte growth factor is involved in the cyclic growth of hair follicles. Platelet-derived growth factor induces and maintains the anagen phase of hair follicles. Insulin-like growth factor 1 controls the hair growth cycle and differentiation of hair shafts"

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## Hairismylife

Japan doctors should consider this!

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## Clion1995

Can't you order it from Prostemics and have a doctor inject it into your scalp in the US? Also, are there sides from AAPE?

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## robodoc

If CRP works I have seen no evidence.  Perhaps some minor improvement in some but my unresearched guess it does little for regrowth in most situations, ie, HT.

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## robodoc

Show me.....I believe the results PRC are not worth the cost...any long term use results from anyone?  I have seen none.

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## robodoc

We, they are getting closer.   Again,  there is NOT any one treatment that produces consistent and significant results, no question about that.   It is the kitchen sink theory, IMHO, use everything until we get the homerun treatment.

   My unsubstantiated opinion: Finasteride, Minoxidil, APPE, CRP, Nizoral, RU, needling and perhaps Caffeine which I hear no mention of as a growth stimulator.  Caffeine is in several shampoos, is absorbed well, and hair thickener products have it or make your own solution. Good health too.   I think we are close but not sure Cotsorellis (excuse the spelling) will bring it home.

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## bornthisway

I came across a thread at *** which claimed fat loss in the scalp occurs in men with AGA (due to inflammation/DHT). Fat cells are needed for hair growth. So reintroducing those growth factors with something like AAPE may explain the results from the study. Can anyone find evidence of scalp fat depletion in men with AGA?

Btw, there's also a doctor in Chicago that injects the patients own fat with PRP.

Fat cells in the skin have been identified as the source of chemicals needed to make hair grow, according to researchers in the US.
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-14746365

From *** thread:
"So hair loss has also been linked to fat loss in scalp, that's why people tend to thin in front where scalp is thinner. It is the layer beneath your skin which is made of fats that the hair grows from, fats produce growth factors which tell your stem cells to grow hair. He suggested massaging crude oil and Vaseline, which are made up of different carbon based fats that could be absorbed by your fat layers and thicken it and cause it to grow hair."

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## robodoc

You make the ultimate point, everyone would know if this AAPE worked as well as some claim.

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## robodoc

That may be true but research papers from esteemed Universities and the others have been know to contain false data.  You see, the researchers like to research and if they can get funding and predicted results from a study they can make a living and study more.  That is how it works sadly, it is about the bucks.  In my business, a Harvard study does not mean more than one from any other university.

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## robodoc

2.54cm = 1 inch so maybe millimeters (mm).  Intradermal is what you want.

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## stratowich

> That may be true but research papers from esteemed Universities and the others have been know to contain false data. You see, the researchers like to research and if they can get funding and predicted results from a study they can make a living and study more. That is how it works sadly, it is about the bucks. In my business, a Harvard study does not mean more than one from any other university.


 Very well phrased! Thank you for pointing this out on here!!

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## nameless

> You make the ultimate point, everyone would know if this AAPE worked as well as some claim.


 give me a break! 

AAPE = growth factors and proteins found in adipose derived stem cells. AAPE is not produced in a lab; rather it's a substance extracted from the human body the same as blood is extracted from the human body. Even the people who make AAPE (Prostemics) can't stop other companies/researchers/doctors from extracting adipose derived stem cells from the human body, harvesting the growth factors from those cells, and making their own AAPE-like treatment. The act of extracting human adipose derived stem cells, harvesting the growth factors, and re-injecting those growth factors can not be patented. This is why AAPE is not a big deal and it's why no major company is trying to move it forward in regular FDA clinical trials. 

This is why you are not hearing a lot of big noise about AAPE.

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## robodoc

Just be careful with Prostemics....you might not get what you pay for.  Will follow up on this very soon

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## Vic

> There definitely might be something here. However when and where could one even consider getting AAPE treatment. No one is offering it...


 I came across a clinic in San Diego CA. offering this treatment. Each session cost $2500 and that was their discount rate because they were just starting and running trials.

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## nofintowin

$2,500 per AAPE treatment? That's ridiculous lol. The 6 vials, which last for 6 sessions, cost $500. And the only other cost is the injection used (standard injection), which costs what, $0.50? Doctor should maybe add in a nominal charge for his time and the cost of the vials, but that's it. Procedure takes 15-20 mins, tops.

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