# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments >  Hairloss regime without fin

## KUP

I feel strongly about not using fin, knowing the possibly side effects. 
So what are my options?
I am using niz shampoo once a week and just bought minoxidil but am very hesitant about using it, because it seems somewhat pointless when not taking anything to stop the MPB.
Is this correct? Is minoxidil worth the risk when taking into account the shedding?
What other options do I have besides fin and Dutasteride?

I have a receding hairline at the temples and diffuse thining. It is difficult to say on the NW scale because of the diffused thining, but properly NW 2-3.

Thanks in advance!

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## macster

minoxidil works very well on its own i believe for 50% of men.  the research studies also seem to show that it is effective for the long term.  some men report halting their hair loss for over a decade on it.

of course, you must be very disciplined in your use of minoxidil. 2x a day, every day, for the rest of your life.  even if it is greasy and a pain in the behind.

the shedding thing is rare.  those who have it are the ones who yell loudly on the internet, so it seems like a whole lot of people have this effect.  but it is actually very rare.

its like working...at the returns desk at a target.  over time, working there, you would probably start getting a very bad opinion about probably all the products at target.  because all you are dealing with all day is with people who have had problem with target products.  it skews you perception of things.

in actuality, very few people have problems with target products.

it is the same thing with side effects with propecia and rogaine.  side effects for propecia occur in about 1.3% of men.  And with half of those men, the side effects go away after 6 months with continued use of the product.  that means the long term side effect rate is like .07, under 1%.

Some people are extremely risk averse and that is ok, that is your choice.  For those people, who do not want to take an under 1% risk to get an 86% chance of keeping your hair for at least 10 years...for those people, your only choice is minoxidil.

And I think minoxidil works pretty well on its own, but you have to be very good about using it.  No whining about it and skipping days and all that nonsense.

As Yoda said, "Do or do not.  There is no try."

 :Smile:

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## KUP

Thank you very much for the answer. It's nice to get some perspective on the whole thing.
I guess you are right, my view on the these two things might be tainted by reading all the post on the forums.

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## macster

Thank you.

You know, I thought about another analogy.  

It's like...being a police officer.  I have many friends who are police officers.  Please this is not meant to offend police officers.  I am pro-police and of that.  I know they have very tough jobs.

But one thing I noticed is that, at least for a while after they just became police officers, they all..became...pessimistic about mankind, suspicious, and jaded.

It seems that for quite some time (and for some, permanently...)...their personality changed.  They began to get a dark view of mankind because...because all they deal with is the crap from mankind all day.

Their job is to specifically focus on the worst elements of society -- thieves, drug dealers, and all sorts of bad bad characters.

Over time, they begin to believe that everyone is a bad guy.

It takes some very specific and intentional conscious thought, and even psychological counseling, for them to reconfigure their minds and realize that no, not everyone is a thief, not everyone is out to break the law and do harm.  THE ONLY REASON YOU THINK THIS IS BECAUSE IT IS YOUR JOB TO FOCUS ON THESE PEOPLE ALL DAY.

Without being careful, the mind of a cop, especially new cops, can become very warped with regards to what reality actually is.

The same kind of thing happens in our situation.  The message boards are filled with people with complaints, real or imagined.  We keep reading these posts and we begin to think that these horrible reports are the reality rather than the exception to the rule, or even just the reports of hypochondriacs.

Also, it is so funny that these days, NO ONE has hypochondria in their own opinion.  They are ABSOLUTELY SURE that propecia or rogaine is giving them this or that side effect.  They are also ABSOLUTELY SURE that they do not have hypochondria, even though this condition is not all that rare.

Hypochondria occurs in about 4-7&#37; of the population and is a real mental illness.  It most likely is the true cause of a lot, if not most, of these propecia and rogaine side effect cases.

Hypochondriasis also peaks during adolescence and middle age, so we are talking about the same population here.

There are a lot of people on these message boards that are likely suffering from hypochondria, a very real psychological illness that can be addressed with therapy and medication.

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## greatjob!

Hairloss regime without fin = lose hair.

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## StayThick

> Hairloss regime without fin = lose hair.


 Hairloss regime with FIN=still lose hair.

Useless comment by great job! Way to contribute there guy.

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## greatjob!

> Hairloss regime with FIN=still lose hair.
> 
> Useless comment by great job! Way to contribute there guy.


 Yeah because the truth is useless. 

Show me any other current treatment on the market better than fin at keeping your hair. I'll wait. Oh, that's right there isn't any. Does it suck? Yes. Is it the reality of the current treatments. Yes.

So again: Hairloss regime without fin = lose hair.


Useless comment by StayThick! Way to contribute there guy. :Wink:

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## cp9

Go try RU58841. I'm on it right now because I couldn't handle fin.

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## Dan26

Consider a microdose of fin, it is better than nothing. Compliment this with RU58841 perhaps. You need an AA in your regimen or you are doomed.

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## 25 going on 65

> What other options do I have besides fin and Dutasteride?


 Baldness.

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## StayThick

> Baldness.


 Although very funny, that's not necessarily true. I lost more hair on Propecia than without....but that's just me.

I have maintained and had regrowth with minox by itself. Now do I recommend that others do that? NO. However to say you will go bald without some sort of androgen blocker is a stretch. Blocking the source is important, but I have been the same since starting Rogaine 4 years ago. To each there own.

Still hope something better comes along...and soon.

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## PatientlyWaiting

At this particular time, with most hair loss treatments being 10 years away and the rest being experimental and unproven at a large scale, the next best _proven_ option after fin/dut is this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=hair...h=596&dpr=1.62

Good luck.

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## Notcoolanymore

Just give minox and keto shampoo a try and see how it works out.  There are some around here that only use minox and get good results.

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## macster

Crazy how some of you guys will throw caution to the wind and use an experimental drug (RU) without rigorous clinical trials but go nuts when considering taking an FDA approved drug with about 25 years of safety and efficacy data.

I would not consider that being risk averse.

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## UK_

> Crazy how some of you guys will throw caution to the wind and use an experimental drug (RU) without rigorous clinical trials but go nuts when considering taking an FDA approved drug with about 25 years of safety and efficacy data.
> 
> I would not consider that being risk averse.


 Propecia ****ed me up - that's why I dont use it.

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## macster

You say Propecia messed you up but it may have been something else.  You cannot be sure of that it did mess your up nor that it didn't.  It could have been hypochondria, a fairly common mental illness.

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## crafter

treatment without fin = baldness, unless minox works well for you

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## Dan26

> You say Propecia messed you up but it may have been something else.  You cannot be sure of that it did mess your up nor that it didn't.  It could have been hypochondria, a fairly common mental illness.


 Sides happen in over 5% of users...whats hard to believe about some online experiencing them?

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## macster

They seem to occur in more like 1-2% of users.  So no, it would not be rare to find someone online with side effects, but still, the side effects are rare.

It would not be rare to find someone online with an allergy to Aspirin, but still, allergy to Aspirin is rare.

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## Dan26

> They seem to occur in more like 1-2% of users.  So no, it would not be rare to find someone online with side effects, but still, the side effects are rare.
> 
> It would not be rare to find someone online with an allergy to Aspirin, but still, allergy to Aspirin is rare.


 comparing aspirin to propecia is ridiculous...common dawg

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## macster

Comparing aspirin to propecia would not be ridiculous.  It would depend on what sort of comparison was being made.

Regardless, I did not compare aspirin to propecia.  I'm not sure where you got that idea.

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## UK_

> You say Propecia messed you up but it may have been something else.  You cannot be sure of that it did mess your up nor that it didn't.  It could have been hypochondria, a fairly common mental illness.


 Yes, so within a few months of starting propecia my sex drive crashed and I experienced most of the physical/psychological side effects listed on the leaflet included with the propecia.

I think it's safe to say there is a link between my use of propecia and the side effects experienced, I was perfectly normal sexually active man before I ingested this bullshit.

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## UK_

> Comparing aspirin to propecia would not be ridiculous.  It would depend on what sort of comparison was being made.
> 
> Regardless, I did not compare aspirin to propecia.  I'm not sure where you got that idea.


 Merck troll.

Finasteride is a perfect example of why Milton Friedman was right about how useless and pointless the FDA is, I should have used my own judgement/research, but I was convinced by the money grabbing socialists in the FDA.

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## cichlidfort

> minoxidil works very well on its own i believe for 50% of men.  the research studies also seem to show that it is effective for the long term.  some men report halting their hair loss for over a decade on it.
> 
> of course, you must be very disciplined in your use of minoxidil. 2x a day, every day, for the rest of your life.  even if it is greasy and a pain in the behind.
> 
> the shedding thing is rare.  those who have it are the ones who yell loudly on the internet, so it seems like a whole lot of people have this effect.  but it is actually very rare.
> 
> its like working...at the returns desk at a target.  over time, working there, you would probably start getting a very bad opinion about probably all the products at target.  because all you are dealing with all day is with people who have had problem with target products.  it skews you perception of things.
> 
> in actuality, very few people have problems with target products.
> ...


 Your words are kind but they are coated in sugar. I have been using rogaine for 3 years now and I have still lost tons of ground. Everyone's physiology is different. What might work for me might not for someone else and vice verse. I used fin for 1 month and already I was noticing a decline in my sex drive, erections were weak and morning wood was gone. And I HIGHLY doubt only 1 or 2 out of everyone 100 men get sides. Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are skewed and inaccurate. And what about the men that have been on the drug successfully for 10 years and then go off of it notice huge improvements in quality of life after? Or men that were on it for 5 years and in their 6th year they developed permanent side effects? DHT is the king of male androgens. It isn't just a hormone that causes us to lose hair. It has many important physiological functions in our body and in the brain. A lot of our hormones and internal bodily functions are all interconnected. When you start messing with their levels, who knows what could happen, not just short term but long term as well. Yes losing our hair SUCKS but I would rather have a healthy mans body/libido then the contrary.

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## macster

It is possible that the decline in your sex drive was a function of the normal aging process.  You are not meant to be a crazy hornball in your 30s, or even your late 20s, as you were in your teens and early 20s.  You may be confounding these two factors.  Remember, correlation does not mean causation.

I could also say Propecia causes wrinkles, or gray hair.

"And I HIGHLY doubt only 1 or 2 out of everyone 100 men get sides. Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are skewed and inaccurate."

Well...you can highly doubt that.  You can highly doubt whatever you want, but that doesn't change the research findings replicated in study after study.

"Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are skewed and inaccurate."

I like that.  I like how you just say that.  You could also just say:

"Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are true and accurate."

Just because you say something assertively, with an air of righteousness and self confidence, doesn't make that statement into reality.  I could just as well say "Anyone with common sense knows that dogs can fly in the sky" doesn't make it so.

"DHT is the king of male androgens."

That's a cool statement.  I didn't know that androgens were members on any royal lineage.

You then go on to make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about how horrible the side effects are because this one said something or that one aid something, web postings, anecdotal evidence etc.

Well, you are using that data to make a judgement.  That is bad data, assessed improperly, resulting in a bad judgement.

The data from peer reviewed clinical research is better data.  The research design of these studies is better than the research design involved in searching around google and just pulling random stuff up and assigning it as truth, as fact.

NEITHER one of these ways of assessing information is perfect, neither the clinical research studies NOR jumping around on google.  Each has its weaknesses.

However, the research approach of just jumping around on google and coming to conclusions is FAR WEAKER and FAR WORSE than the approach taken by the peer reviewed research studies published in medical journals.

All I am saying is that one approach is better than the other.

In the end, we will have to pick one approach over the other and live by it.

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## macster

One more thing I would like to note...

If propecia indeed has a side effects rate of 1 or 2%, this would mean that in a sense, side effects are not all that rare.

A 2% side effects rate, which is a reasonable estimate even for us who who are not part of the propecia paranoid posse, would mean that about 1 in 50 men who take propecia get side effects.

1 in 50.  About 1 per set of people of about the size of a large classroom.

So I am not saying that the side effects do not exist.  The studies say about 1 in 50 to 1 in 100.  

But it is not worse than that either.  And you have to make a decision as to what risk you are willing to take to keep your hair.

It is your decision based on your level of risk aversion.

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## Dan26

1-2% realistically is more like 4-6% based on other independent studies.

PFS can happen. Over half the people it happened to had an underlying physical or emotional condition, but there were some men who were perfectly normal/healthy and had their endocrine system severly messed up by it and now need hormone therapy.

again very small chance of serious life altering side effects

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## macster

Well, that is possible, but those cases have not been scientifically documented and "proven," at least to the greatest extent possible by modern science.

But we have to realize that all drugs, and heck, even foods, have rare and sometimes potentially devastating side effects.

Seems everyone is allergic to gluten right now.  Actually, I think most of those cases are baloney, people who are trying to be all special and cool by being gluten free.

But there are legitimate cases of celiac disease, sensitivity to gluten.

The same can be said of common things like peanuts, aspirin, or even water.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Allergi...7401149&page=1

Some people will have these reactions.

And Propecia is nothing compared to these drugs.  I have never heard of anyone dying from using Propecia, but I have heard of people dying from reactions to peanuts and aspirin.

But these cases are very rare.

I guess, in the end, it is up to the individual whether he wants to take a small risk to have an 86% chance of keeping one's hair for 10 years, and perhaps even regrowing some.

It is ok to be extremely risk averse.  Some people will not fly on airplanes because they are extremely risk averse.

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## Dan26

im not feelin the false equivalencies bro...you reachin'

propecia essesntially changes your hormonal profile...it isn't as simple as a 'reaction' to something

i agree it is a pretty damn safe drug based on all the evidence out there...i take it, and i wish i didn't have to! very sad this is the best we got...

20 yrs ago i would have been appreciative that we at least have something to help...but at this point, brutal!

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## cichlidfort

> It is possible that the decline in your sex drive was a function of the normal aging process.  You are not meant to be a crazy hornball in your 30s, or even your late 20s, as you were in your teens and early 20s.  You may be confounding these two factors.  Remember, correlation does not mean causation.


 No it's not possible that the decline in my sex drive was a function of the normal aging process. You assumed all of that. I am 24 years old and I have always had a crazy high libido to the point I thought there was something wrong with me. For example, I would have the flu, sick in bed, looking like death but still wanting to masturbate. Sorry for the excessive details but I am giving you some background info. So no, my libido didn't just fall off the cliff in a month due to the natural aging process. Funny thing is, ever since I have stopped Fin, my libido is mostly fine again. And just to address one of your misconceptions, libido doesn't just drop off into the deep-end like that. It's progressive just like we age progressively. We don't look 24 one day and wake up and look 34 because that's not how it works and the same applies with our sex drive.




> "Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are true and accurate."
> 
> Just because you say something assertively, with an air of righteousness and self confidence, doesn't make that statement into reality.  I could just as well say "Anyone with common sense knows that dogs can fly in the sky" doesn't make it so.


 Except that everyone knows dogs cannot fly in the sky so terrible, terrible comparison. It is WELL-known that Fin potentially can give it's users HORRIBLE sides. That's only speaking of horrible sides. Based off what I have read, a lot of users that take Fin experience minor sides but chalk it up as no sides just because they are comparing their experience to the nightmares of Fin out there. I mean, let's look at two made up guys that use Fin; lets call them John and Thomas respectively. John takes Fin for a year, quits the drug because of ED, impotence, brain fog, gyno and loss of libido. Not only that, but two years later he still has a lot of those sides and is on hormone therapy! Pretty extreme right? Thomas comes in at a later time and read's John's horror story on the internet. He sees what a risk it is to take Fin but the hell with it, his hair is important so he decides to take Fin. After a year, the only sides he gets is a minor loss in libido and maybe fatigue throughout the day. In comparison, Thomas' sides is a bargain compared to what John had to go through. Thomas, does not categorize himself as a Fin user that has sides because he is comparing himself to the extreme so therefore "side reports" are inaccurate and the numbers are skewed. Despite what the debated frequency is, there is still the damn possibility that it can happen so it's a personal choice. All I am saying is that it MUST be higher than 1 or 2 percent considering I have read an abundance of literature online from Fin/Propecia users complaining about the drug. Just Google Fin side effects and you'll get a massive amount of results, endless results. This isn't some mass hysteria, this is real. And who's to say that just because a fin user doesn't perceive any sides that something underlying/developing isn't going on that could pop up later in life?






> That's a cool statement.  I didn't know that androgens were members on any royal lineage.


 If there was a royal lineage, DHT would be king. Nice attempt at being a smart ass though. You sound like a 12 year old boy arguing with an older sibling. 




> You then go on to make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about how horrible the side effects are because this one said something or that one aid something, web postings, anecdotal evidence etc.
> 
> Well, you are using that data to make a judgement.  That is bad data, assessed improperly, resulting in a bad judgement.
> 
> The data from peer reviewed clinical research is better data.  The research design of these studies is better than the research design involved in searching around google and just pulling random stuff up and assigning it as truth, as fact.
> 
> NEITHER one of these ways of assessing information is perfect, neither the clinical research studies NOR jumping around on google.  Each has its weaknesses.
> 
> However, the research approach of just jumping around on google and coming to conclusions is FAR WEAKER and FAR WORSE than the approach taken by the peer reviewed research studies published in medical journals.


 To each their own. Research journals or not, so many have been negatively impacted by the drug and there is plenty of users on this forum to start with. Sure you could make the claim/argument that only the vocal people that have had a bad experience on Fin will come to the internet to voice it but that's just as theoretical as the argument itself. How do you know only the people that have bad experiences on Fin come to the internet to talk about it? Is there a possibility that a lot of people have sides on Fin, quit the drug and move on with life or just choose not to talk about it? Of course. What about all the good experiences that people had on Fin? Doesn't that negate in some way about only the "bad experiences being talked about theory?" 

And just to throw this out there, it's much easier to relate to a person's experience/story and to interpret it as such than to read a medical journal study...

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## macster

"All I am saying is that it MUST be higher than 1 or 2 percent considering I have read an abundance of literature online from Fin/Propecia users complaining about the drug. Just Google Fin side effects and you'll get a massive amount of results, endless results. This isn't some mass hysteria, this is real. "

Yes, just like childhood vaccines causing autism is not hysteria.  It is real.  There are lots of posts about this on the internet and lots of people believe this.  Therefore, it is true.  Childhood vaccines cause autism.

Forget the research studies that time and time again show otherwise.  It is is true.  Childhood vaccines cause autism.  Because I saw it on google.

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## greatjob!

Dude everyone knows they can't post anything on the internet unless its true, don't be stupid. I'm on my way to the bank right now to pick up my million dollar check from this Nigerian prince and I only had to give him 5 grand for it!!

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## cichlidfort

> Dude everyone knows they can't post anything on the internet unless its true, don't be stupid. I'm on my way to the bank right now to pick up my million dollar check from this Nigerian prince and I only had to give him 5 grand for it!!


 Go for it dude! Maybe you'll meet the princess next!

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## StayThick

> "All I am saying is that it MUST be higher than 1 or 2 percent considering I have read an abundance of literature online from Fin/Propecia users complaining about the drug. Just Google Fin side effects and you'll get a massive amount of results, endless results. This isn't some mass hysteria, this is real. "
> 
> Yes, just like childhood vaccines causing autism is not hysteria.  It is real.  There are lots of posts about this on the internet and lots of people believe this.  Therefore, it is true.  Childhood vaccines cause autism.
> 
> Forget the research studies that time and time again show otherwise.  It is is true.  Childhood vaccines cause autism.  Because I saw it on google.


 Hey Macster...STFU you have 0 clue what the hell you're talking about. Your comparisons are absurd and your head is so far shoved up Mercks rear you can't see clearly. You're the type to blame an active dude on Propecia who is experiencing a saggy chest or excessive weight gain to lack of exercise or bad nutrition. All this when clearly the individual hasn't changed their diet and was not in that state prior to popping the pills. Go ride into the sunset on your high horse bro.

You think an active, exercise freak who sees there body change, experience rapid weight gain, puffy nipples, excess fat around thighs, lower stomach, and chest, decrease sex drive, weak erections, watery ejaculate, speech impairment, and cognitive issues are all experienced by someone who "believes" this is happening based on what one read on Google? Are you insane?

You think sitting down and watching your chest sag and nipples the size of golf balls are all in my head? That my clearly inflated nipples and chest is just an aberration? Something I cooked up from Google? I'm offended at your ignorance.

Hey guess what? I consider myself lucky...why? Because every side effect minus the puffy nipples diminished within time. Didn't change my diet, my workout regimen....yet miraculously the weight started falling off, my face starting looking chiseled again, my abs started coming back, my morning wood returned with vengeance, my speech slowly improved where stuttering is no longer issue, started shooting sperm rockets again, not a slow goop drip......BUT my bad man, you're right. Just all in my head.. ::grabs an aspirin::

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## cichlidfort

> Hey Macster...STFU you have 0 clue what the hell you're talking about. Your comparisons are absurd and your head is so far shoved up Mercks rear you can't see clearly. You're the type to blame an active dude on Propecia who is experiencing a saggy chest or excessive weight gain to lack of exercise or bad nutrition. All this when clearly the individual hasn't changed their diet and was not in that state prior to popping the pills. Go ride into the sunset on your high horse bro.
> 
> You think an active, exercise freak who sees there body change, experience rapid weight gain, puffy nipples, excess fat around thighs, lower stomach, and chest, decrease sex drive, weak erections, watery ejaculate, speech impairment, and cognitive issues are all experienced by someone who "believes" this is happening based on what one read on Google? Are you insane?
> 
> You think sitting down and watching your chest sag and nipples the size of golf balls are all in my head? That my clearly inflated nipples and chest is just an aberration? Something I cooked up from Google? I'm offended at your ignorance.
> 
> Hey guess what? I consider myself lucky...why? Because every side effect minus the puffy nipples diminished within time. Didn't change my diet, my workout regimen....yet miraculously the weight started falling off, my face starting looking chiseled again, my abs started coming back, my morning wood returned with vengeance, my speech slowly improved where stuttering is no longer issue, started shooting sperm rockets again, not a slow goop drip......BUT my bad man, you're right. Just all in my head.. ::grabs an aspirin::


 Google is powerful bro and has some serious sides. Thank god you stopped using Google because it manifests hypochondria into you if you read it long enough!

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## cichlidfort

> "All I am saying is that it MUST be higher than 1 or 2 percent considering I have read an abundance of literature online from Fin/Propecia users complaining about the drug. Just Google Fin side effects and you'll get a massive amount of results, endless results. This isn't some mass hysteria, this is real. "
> 
> Yes, just like childhood vaccines causing autism is not hysteria.  It is real.  There are lots of posts about this on the internet and lots of people believe this.  Therefore, it is true.  Childhood vaccines cause autism.
> 
> Forget the research studies that time and time again show otherwise.  It is is true.  Childhood vaccines cause autism.  Because I saw it on google.


 Once again you use absolutely terrible examples. Are you a 1st grade teacher or something where explaining things have to be so dumbed down? You can use higher level thinking and I'll be right there with ya!  :Wink:

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## macster

Please explain why this is a terrible example.

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## Notcoolanymore

Some people around here get so pissed of when somebody is a supporter of using fin.  I get that some people have had sides and cant use it.  It sucks that those people cannot use one of the most effective drugs to fight their hair loss.  On the flip side there are people that not only have no sides, but have also had success growing their hair back.  There is nothing wrong with telling the positive experiences that people are having using fin.  This is a hair loss forum, which is suppose to point people in the direction of using what works, not scare them away from it.    

People that use fin don't use it because we have nothing better to do.  We use it because we know that it is one of the very few things that actually work.

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## cp9

I had horrible sides from fin.. my balls physically shrunk down to the size of grapes. BUT... My hair started falling out when I hopped off. I'm microdosing it now and also added RU. So the moral of the story is.. if you're not getting sides then great! But you if are, you gotta outweigh the costs and benefits yourself. Either live with the sides or try to find an alternative. Good luck.

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## Fireside

> Please explain why this is a terrible example.


 Macster, the real question is - why, if you are so content with finasteride and unconcerned about side effects - are you spending all of this time writing essays in its defence on the Internet? I do not understand why you would feel the need, unless you yourself are worried about sides or the effects the drug might have on you long term?

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## SolarPowered Man

> Please explain why this is a terrible example.


 the vaccine-autism connection as "the most damaging medical hoax of the last 100 years".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

Please read and check footnotes from wiki to realise why this is such a "terrible example"

*Apologises for being of topic*

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## Notcoolanymore

> I had horrible sides from fin.. my balls physically shrunk down to the size of grapes. BUT... My hair started falling out when I hopped off. I'm microdosing it now and also added RU. So the moral of the story is.. if you're not getting sides then great! But you if are, you gotta outweigh the costs and benefits yourself. Either live with the sides or try to find an alternative. Good luck.


 Yup

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## macster

> the vaccine-autism connection as "the most damaging medical hoax of the last 100 years".
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy
> 
> Please read and check footnotes from wiki to realise why this is such a "terrible example"


 SolarPowered Man, that is not an answer at all.  You merely pointed me to a wikipedia article that has 150 references to it.  That doesn't do anything.

I could have just as well said "Please read and check the footnotes from wiki to realize (not realise) why this is such a "wonderful example."

That's not an answer.  That's just...well, that's just there.

In fact, upon reading the article, it seems to show why it may be a good example.

Much of the hysteria regarding the MMR vaccine controversy revolves around:

"the 1998 publication of a fraudulent research paper in the medical journal The Lancet that lent support to the subsequently discredited theory that colitis and autism spectrum disorders could be caused by the combined measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine.[1] The media has been heavily criticized for its naive reporting and for lending undue credibility to the architect of the fraud, Andrew Wakefield."

You could replace the words "The Lancet" with "Journal of Sexual Medicine", the phrase "colitis and autism spectrum disorders" with "post-finasteride syndrome" and the name "Andrew Wakefield" with "Dr. Michael Irwig" and see that a similar dynamic may be in play.

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## macster

BTW Cichlidfort

"Except that everyone knows dogs cannot fly in the sky so terrible, terrible comparison. It is WELL-known that Fin potentially can give it's users HORRIBLE sides."

The problem with that statement is that is is not WELL-known the Fin potentially can give it's users HORRIBLE sides.  By just saying something and putting words in capital letters, things don't suddenly become proven and true.

It is WELL -known that DOGS can FLY

See, I did it too.  It doesn't mean that dogs can fly.

Let me do it again.

It is WELL -know that the MMR vaccine causes AUTISM.

See, still not not true!  Even though I say it like that and use those capital letters.

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## Dan26

Macster snap out of the matrix man drug companies are currupt and Merck = illuminati reptilians

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## 25 going on 65

This again

Yes a tiny % of men have a horrible reaction to fin. Just like w/ many drugs both rx or otc. For the rest this drug is nothing. It is not messing with your body 1/4 as much as the sh*t you put in your mouth every day that you call "food". It is not messing w/ your body 1/4 as much as your f*cked up sleep schedule, staying up until midnight in front of screens. It is not messing w/ your body 1/4 as much as sitting down 8 hours every day, wreaking havoc on your muscles & bones. It is not messing with your body 1/4 as much as the 5 f*cking drinks you decided to have last Friday after work

Amazing what the average American (applies to other rich countries too I am sure) will put his body through EVERY DAY but then will cringe about something like finasteride, which is more mild than half the sh*t you can buy off store shelves at your local Walgreens

For the guys who actually had bad reactions to this drug (ie did not just freak themselves out by reading propeciahelp when they were high one night). I respect that. They did not come out winners but had the sense to know when odds were in their favor. They did exactly the right thing because even though there might be a 5% chance of sides or a .1% chance of persistent sides (I have no idea what the #'s are anymore & I could not care less), they knew baldness would mean a 100% chance of a massive life downgrade.

I srsly feel sorry for the random 20 yo NW2 who reads some of the posts on here & screws himself forever by being scared off of oral DHT inhibs. Bottom line, if you want good hair & have andro alopecia, YOU CAN TAKE FINASTERIDE OR YOU CAN TAKE DUTASTERIDE on top of W/E ELSE you are experimenting with. That is the requirement.  If you can not or will not do this, you need to deal w/ being "a balding guy" in the eyes of other people. You simply will not have good hair

This is not aimed at any poster in this thread (I mean that). This is meant for the many lurkers who are trying to decide to take fin/dut or not. 

Listen to me lurker. Yes you. There are 20 other people reading this thread with you & if all of you take fin/dut, 1 of you might get sides. 
However if none of you take fin/dut, all of you are screwed.

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## cichlidfort

> BTW Cichlidfort
> 
> "Except that everyone knows dogs cannot fly in the sky so terrible, terrible comparison. It is WELL-known that Fin potentially can give it's users HORRIBLE sides."
> 
> The problem with that statement is that is is not WELL-known the Fin potentially can give it's users HORRIBLE sides.  By just saying something and putting words in capital letters, things don't suddenly become proven and true.
> 
> It is WELL -known that DOGS can FLY
> 
> See, I did it too.  It doesn't mean that dogs can fly.
> ...


 Come on man, what are you doing? Anyone that's involved in the hairloss community knows damn well what Fin/propecia is. Hell, even before I had hairloss I was aware of propecia and it's side effects and how potentially damaging it can be. I'm using caps letters because I'm putting emphasis on the point I am trying to make. Some of the sides you can get are defined as HORRIBLE. Would you not define ED, impotence, brain fog, depression and loss of libido horrible? Certainly they are not defined as mild or ideal. The problem with your example about dogs and them being able to fly is that it is a FACT that dogs cannot fly no matter how you phrase or disguise your word. However, in my case, there is a plethora of real life examples that backs up my claim that fin can give people HORRIBLE sides. Just scroll up and read what some of the members on here had to say about fin. For some people, fin works wonders and that is also accurate. It affects everyone differently on a physiological level. Just acknowledge that the drug can be horrible with the sides...


Edit:25 going on 65, you're absolutely right. If you're balding, I would say try fin. If you get sides, reduce the dosage/frequency or just stop!

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## PatientlyWaiting

> This again
> 
> Yes a tiny &#37; of men have a horrible reaction to fin. Just like w/ many drugs both rx or otc. For the rest this drug is nothing. It is not messing with your body 1/4 as much as the sh*t you put in your mouth every day that you call "food". It is not messing w/ your body 1/4 as much as your f*cked up sleep schedule, staying up until midnight in front of screens. It is not messing w/ your body 1/4 as much as sitting down 8 hours every day, wreaking havoc on your muscles & bones. It is not messing with your body 1/4 as much as the 5 f*cking drinks you decided to have last Friday after work
> 
> Amazing what the average American (applies to other rich countries too I am sure) will put his body through EVERY DAY but then will cringe about something like finasteride, which is more mild than half the sh*t you can buy off store shelves at your local Walgreens
> 
> For the guys who actually had bad reactions to this drug (ie did not just freak themselves out by reading propeciahelp when they were high one night). I respect that. They did not come out winners but had the sense to know when odds were in their favor. They did exactly the right thing because even though there might be a 5% chance of sides or a .1% chance of persistent sides (I have no idea what the #'s are anymore & I could not care less), they knew baldness would mean a 100% chance of a massive life downgrade.
> 
> I srsly feel sorry for the random 20 yo NW2 who reads some of the posts on here & screws himself forever by being scared off of oral DHT inhibs. Bottom line, if you want good hair & have andro alopecia, YOU CAN TAKE FINASTERIDE OR YOU CAN TAKE DUTASTERIDE on top of W/E ELSE you are experimenting with. That is the requirement.  If you can not or will not do this, you need to deal w/ being "a balding guy" in the eyes of other people. You simply will not have good hair
> ...


 That was great.

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## Notcoolanymore

25 going on 65 with another solid post.

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## SolarPowered Man

> SolarPowered Man, that is not an answer at all.  You merely pointed me to a wikipedia article that has 150 references to it.  That doesn't do anything.
> 
> I could have just as well said "Please read and check the footnotes from wiki to realize (not realise) why this is such a "wonderful example."
> 
> That's not an answer.  That's just...well, that's just there.
> 
> In fact, upon reading the article, it seems to show why it may be a good example.
> 
> Much of the hysteria regarding the MMR vaccine controversy revolves around:
> ...


 Yes indeed, the quote is true  :EEK!: 

The 1998 publication from the Lancet was discredited and the media was criticised for its naive reporting on the matter. Now we can all move forward knowing the MMR is safe.

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## KUP

I just got back from a doctors appointment, where I asked her about Fin.
She told me that by far the majority of the people she and the other doctors at her clinic had given Fin, experienced some sort of side effects associated with the pill, mainly a decrease in erectile functions.

I then asked about taking a smaller dose. She told me that if you were experiencing sides and then reduced the dose to a point where the sides went away, then it would most likely also mean that the (possible) positive effect on your hair would be lost as well. 

So her real experienced with people on the drug was no way near the 1  2 % and although she confirmed that the sides should disappear if halting the intake, she was still skeptical towards that always being the case. 

Im considering RU58841, after having read that the sides are far less vigorous. What are your guys take on this?

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