# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Hidden Gem -> MSM/Vit C & TRX2 - a fin alternative?

## gutted

So ive been noticing some things over the past 1/2 years in relation to my hairloss through some trial and error. It seems im the only person who has noticed any benefits from trx2. And i _think_ i know why.

There are only around 8 people using trx2 in the trx2 thread, no one has trueley used it alone or in combination with the recoomended MSM that trx2 state on thier site. I am the only person who has given this combo a try. Others have used it along side other stuff such as propecia/dut/minox- all blurring results, inducing sheds, making them and the forum people believe that "trx2 does not work"

Inititally when i started i used to take msm *on and off* (and not consistently) for other reasons, but it wasnt until when i used to stop taking the MSM that i noticed some minute details about my MPB. I noticed that it would start to progress again. 
How do i know this? -> In the mpb regions i would itch like crazy and hairs would come out/i would have a major increase in itchy dandruff in the top regions, this to me was a signal that mpb was progressing, i didnt relaise how significant these "mpb symptoms" were at the time, but after looking back, they were very signifcant.

Bear in mind i was on trx2 and thought that would be enough to maintain my hair but i was wrong, i sincerley beleive it reactivates dormant hairs but is not potent enough, but it *doesnt* address the main issue/cause involved with mpb.
The general consensus about msm is that it does *NOTHING* for hair loss apart from *grow hair faster* - how wrong these people are!!!
So i had no reason to think msm would help with mpb hence why i really didnt stick with it consistently and it would be an on and off thing.

Anyway on the trx2 website i noticed *THEY*  actually reccomend people supplement with msm, so i thought *"what the hell ill stick with it consistently, if anything my hair would grow faster and therefore i would experience trx2 results much quicker".* 
I was wrong about his misconception and msm and vitc have more value- msm (with vit c) ALONE is *probably* enough to stop mpb in its track and a great alternative to fin.

I done some reading up on msm and found that its probably one of *THE MOST underrated* supplement for mpb of all time.

The following study compares vitc/MSM to 5&#37; minoxidil and even states it *"was comparable to or better"* than 5% minox.

The Effect of Methylsulfonylmethane on Hair Growth Promotion of
Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate(vitamin c derivative) for the Treatment of Alopecia
http://img.kisti.re.kr/originalView/..._v17n3_241.pdf

MSM increases glutathione 
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/me...bstracts/445.8

Glutathione involved in maintaining the anagen hair cycle ->
Glutathione S-transferase in normal human anagen hair follicles.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7800912

Glutahtion decreases with age
Changes in glutathione content in human hair follicle keratinocytes as a function of age of donor: relation with glutathione dependent enzymes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19291050

The next study suggests - glutathione may be involved in the conversion of androgens, and may play a protective role.
Purification of Androgen Receptors in Human Sebocytes and Hair
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v9.../5612066a.html

Regulation of prostaglandin biosynthesis in vivo by glutathione
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/274/2/R294.full

I also thought i read somehwre that glutathione was found to be higher in hairy areas than bald areas in mob but cant seem to find the study.

Why this combo works, i have no idea for sure but it could be a number of things from increasing glutathione which affects other pathways such as balancing cox2 enzymes. Im not quite sure.

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Another VERY intresting point is that, theres several reports of msm growing hair AND nails much much faster than normal, i can vouch for this too.

The drug "Benaxoprofen" which was found to have similar affects of increasing hair and nail growth actually reversed MPB <- the similarity of these reports to me suggests msm may also do this but through different unknown mechanisms! 

Benaxoprofen is a NSAID and is known to affect cox enzymes and other inflammotary enzymes, so its probably fair to assume MSM does something similar. MSM has been used by arthritis sufferers for pain releif too.
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IMO msm/vitc and trx2 is enough to stop any further loss, and even regrow hair over time. I even belive its a fin alternative!
It will take 6-12 months to notice that this combo is having an effect. 
- > Decreased shed levels are an indicator that its working. Although will take time for this effect to be achieved.

- > Decreased itchyness and dandruff another indication that its working. IMO its the most major indicator that signals whether mpb is in check or not. And is a very reliable indicator.

If your using dht blockers, it wont have much effect. It may help balance out cox2 enzymes thus preventing dormancy of the hairs but you wont see *anything visual*. So i *do NOT* reccomend people use this combo with dht blockers of any sort, even the natrual ones, ive tried this as a test, it does not work to keep hairs on the scalp which is the main goal in mpb.

9grams of msm and any adequate amount of vitamin c, you could supplement with this if you want to which i have done at 4 grams per day.
Adding trx2 can help bring minturaised hairs back to life, although its possible to use the individiual ingredients of trx2, you would *HAVE* to stick with the ratios.

any questions pm me, or leave a message here.

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## 2020

lol if you want to increase glutathione, there are much better ways than taking MSM

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## gutted

> lol if you want to increase glutathione, there are much better ways than taking MSM


 i know there is...but i dont know if its because of the glutathione increase or normalising cox directly.

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## 2020

"I also thought i read somehwre that glutathione was found to be higher in hairy areas than bald areas in mob but cant seem to find the study."

all I could find:

*Glutathione, glutathione S-transferase and reactive oxygen species of human scalp sebaceous glands in male pattern baldness.*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8757755

*Antioxidants and lipid peroxidation status in the blood of patients with alopecia.*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10965354

interesting since glutathione levels can be increased quite easily

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## gutted

> "I also thought i read somehwre that glutathione was found to be higher in hairy areas than bald areas in mob but cant seem to find the study."
> 
> all I could find:
> 
> *Glutathione, glutathione S-transferase and reactive oxygen species of human scalp sebaceous glands in male pattern baldness.*
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8757755


 
yeah thats the study i was referring to.

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## gutted

http://www.msmhair.com/balding-hair-restoration/

doesnt look like the guy regrew lots of new hair from the pics, but quite possibly may have postponed mpb.

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## Davey Jones

How much Vitamin C do you take?  And at what intervals?  Anything special?  Or do you just take a Vitamin C pill every morning?

P.S.  All those questions, but with MSM.  If that sounds like a stupid question, sorry.  I know jack about MSM.  First I've heard of it.

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## gutted

> How much Vitamin C do you take?  And at what intervals?  Anything special?  Or do you just take a Vitamin C pill every morning?
> 
> P.S.  All those questions, but with MSM.  If that sounds like a stupid question, sorry.  I know jack about MSM.  First I've heard of it.


 
i take in the evenings ->

trx2 capsules
few hours later.
MSM - 9 grams together *WITH* 4 grams vit c capsules.

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## Jcm800

Interesting post gutted. I'm currently taking 3 grams MSM a.m. and 3 grams again in the evening, along with my 3 Trx caps - would you think it's beneficial to split the dose up am/pm? Or neck them all at once?

I don't take any Vit C - shall get down Boots and buy some tomorrow..

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## gutted

> Interesting post gutted. I'm currently taking 3 grams MSM a.m. and 3 grams again in the evening, along with my 3 Trx caps - would you think it's beneficial to split the dose up am/pm? Or neck them all at once?
> 
> I don't take any Vit C - shall get down Boots and buy some tomorrow..


 shouldnt really matter. I only take them together for convenience.
Yes you need to include the vit c.

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## garethbale

Gutted

I am using a DHT blocker but its not really effective.  Can trx2/msm work on guys who have been losing for some time?

Where can I pick up msm?

Thanks

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## Dazza

> Gutted
> 
> I am using a DHT blocker but its not really effective.  Can trx2/msm work on guys who have been losing for some time?
> 
> Where can I pick up msm?
> 
> Thanks


 Holland and Barrett will stock MSM.

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## gutted

> Gutted
> 
> I am using a DHT blocker but its not really effective.  Can trx2/msm work on guys who have been losing for some time?
> 
> Where can I pick up msm?
> 
> Thanks


 yes, it will work and even regain the hairs you shedded while on the dht blocker.
you can use individual trx2 ingredients or for convenience actual trx2.
Give it about 3/6 months and you should notice a drop in the hairs you shed weekley.

MSM can be picked up anywhere online.

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## Kiwi

> yes, it will work and even regain the hairs you shedded while on the dht blocker.
> you can use individual trx2 ingredients or for convenience actual trx2.
> Give it about 3/6 months and you should notice a drop in the hairs you shed weekley.
> 
> MSM can be picked up anywhere online.


 Gutted - have you done this, is there any photographic images showing cosmetic improvements?

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## Davey Jones

> i take in the evenings ->
> 
> trx2 capsules
> few hours later.
> MSM - 9 grams together *WITH* 4 grams vit c capsules.


 4 grams, pretty cool.  I'm all about megadosing Vitamin C.  I've done it for a few recent colds, and it seemed to help quite a bit.  It could be placebo, but it's too cheap and harmless for me to care.  I've been thinking about doing it every day.  Sounds like I should, and I should add MSM to it.

FYI, I think I have heard that the half-life of Vit. C in the bloodstream is pretty short.  Thirty minutes, if I remember right.  If your intention is to keep levels high in your bloodstream, you might want to take a few 2 gram doses throughout the day instead, but I'm not sure what your intent is.  And doing it that way, you should keep in mind that Vit. C competes with copper for absorption.

Very good post though.  First interesting thing I've seen on here since probably the last Histogen release or that PGD2 hullabaloo.

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## gutted

> Gutted - have you done this, is there any photographic images showing cosmetic improvements?


 i have photos but wouldnt post online, the difference is only partially visible in the photos anyway. When running my hands through my hair, the denseness is there. You'll have to believe in my judgement.

A couple of years ago there was a thing called "ozbrew" which was a mixture of minox, arginine and dmso. Dmso is related to msm. Those people trying it reported some good results. Dmso is said to reduce cox 2 levels, its probably one of the reasons why people had some very good results.

Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) attenuates the inflammatory response in the in vitro intestinal Caco-2 cell model.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21878375

It may even help with fibrosis.

If you still have oily dandruff and an itch,the msm and vit c will sort it out internally within 3/4 weeks. You dont have to wait long for this result. Once this is sorted shed levels should start to reduce within 3/6 months.
If you want some regrowth add the tx2 ingredients.

Like i said earlier, this WILL be percieved by people on dht blockers to NOT work. hence why i do not recommend those people try it. Although if you are on them and you think they are not working, and have hairs in the last cycle it will keep them *active* and prevent them from going into dormancy, so its worth taking just to keep hairs active.
For those that are coming *off* them you need to wait before hormones balance out which can take 1/3 months to see results mentioned in my first post, you will go through *sheds*, but *NOT* *losses* *IF* you stay on this combo since dropping, or else your hairs will go dormant.

As for shampooing, i reccomend tgel and not niz, since it may be harsh for some. Niz 1% may be ok though.

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## gutted

> 4 grams, pretty cool.  I'm all about megadosing Vitamin C.  I've done it for a few recent colds, and it seemed to help quite a bit.  It could be placebo, but it's too cheap and harmless for me to care.  I've been thinking about doing it every day.  Sounds like I should, and I should add MSM to it.
> 
> FYI, I think I have heard that the half-life of Vit. C in the bloodstream is pretty short.  Thirty minutes, if I remember right.  If your intention is to keep levels high in your bloodstream, you might want to take a few 2 gram doses throughout the day instead, but I'm not sure what your intent is.  And doing it that way, you should keep in mind that Vit. C competes with copper for absorption.
> 
> Very good post though.  First interesting thing I've seen on here since probably the last Histogen release or that PGD2 hullabaloo.


 
cool, you should definiteley try it out! start off with 3grams msm and rise to 9grams. You may experience some detox symptoms whilst on them for a short while.

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## Davey Jones

What exactly is TRX2 anyway?  I looked over their website, but right off the bat I noticed the niacin.  In trying to figure out which kind, I saw the statement "Other names for Niacin include Vitamin B3, Vitamin PP, nicotinic acid and nicotinamide."

Nicotinic acid and nicotinamide are different though, and anyone who has taken a lot of nicotinic acid at one time can tell you exactly how different it is from nicotinamide.  Basically though, it makes it hard to trust what the site says for them to act like those things are synonyms.  What's the real skinny on this TRX2?  What is in it that's important?

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## gutted

> What exactly is TRX2 anyway?  I looked over their website, but right off the bat I noticed the niacin.  In trying to figure out which kind, I saw the statement "Other names for Niacin include Vitamin B3, Vitamin PP, nicotinic acid and nicotinamide."
> 
> Nicotinic acid and nicotinamide are different though, and anyone who has taken a lot of nicotinic acid at one time can tell you exactly how different it is from nicotinamide.  Basically though, it makes it hard to trust what the site says for them to act like those things are synonyms.  What's the real skinny on this TRX2?  What is in it that's important?


 nicotinic acid is the kind you are looking for.

If you are trying the trx2 ingredients, you need to buy as close to the ratios as possible.

I really have no clue whats important in it,as a hunch it MAY be the l carnitine, although probably they ALL work together like the msm and vit c with each other. 
I have no idea, but what i do know for sure it brings vellus hairs out of dormancy BUT does not *STOP* mpb hence why some people continue to *GROW* hair on the trx2 but *LOSE* hairs to mpb - the *shed rate VS growth rate* is out of sync giving the impression that its not working.

Try this combo, and give it 12 months, however you should notice some results earlier.

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## Davey Jones

> You may experience some detox symptoms whilst on them for a short while.


 Such as?  I just read around some other forums, and some dude claimed he got small boils with little floating white things inside.  That sounds...I guess nothing less than terrifying.

He a kook?

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## gutted

> Such as?  I just read around some other forums, and some dude claimed he got small boils with little floating white things inside.  That sounds...I guess nothing less than terrifying.
> 
> He a kook?


 minor headaches.

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## Davey Jones

What do you think of this, gutted?

http://www.amazon.com/Methylsulfonyl...0&keywords=MSM

I already take considerable amount of cayenne, turmeric, and creatine as powders, so it really wouldn't seem like a hassle to me.  It's essentially one-thousand 1000mg pills for only double the cost of two-hundred 1000mg pills.

I also see the same thing (1kg of MSM powder) for about the same price from Jarrow's Formula and Hard Rhino.  I buy Toco-sorb from Jarrow's and used to buy caffeine from Hard Rhino.  They both seem pretty legit.

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## gutted

> What do you think of this, gutted?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Methylsulfonyl...0&keywords=MSM
> 
> I already take considerable amount of cayenne, turmeric, and creatine as powders, so it really wouldn't seem like a hassle to me.  It's essentially one-thousand 1000mg pills for only double the cost of two-hundred 1000mg pills.
> 
> I also see the same thing (1kg of MSM powder) for about the same price from Jarrow's Formula and Hard Rhino.  I buy Toco-sorb from Jarrow's and used to buy caffeine from Hard Rhino.  They both seem pretty legit.


 
Should be ok as long as it is pure and convenient for you.

Bear in mind the other stuff you are taking may affect the efficacy of msm/vitc/trx2. Its best to take only this combo *alone*.

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## MrBlonde

> Like i said earlier, this WILL be percieved by people on dht blockers to NOT work. hence why i do not recommend those people try it. Although if you are on them and you think they are not working, and have hairs in the last cycle it will keep them *active* and prevent them from going into dormancy, so its worth taking just to keep hairs active.
> For those that are coming *off* them you need to wait before hormones balance out which can take 1/3 months to see results mentioned in my first post, you will go through *sheds*, but *NOT* *losses* *IF* you stay on this combo since dropping, or else your hairs will go dormant.


 Gutted, for those ppl on DHT blockers you suggest adding MSM to the regime to stop hairs shutting down but there is no point adding TRX2 as the DHT blockers will cloud results and you wont see regrowth.

Why would blocking DHT and adding TRX2 hinder regrowth?  If anything it should help because your promoting regrowth with TRX2 alongside an agent that also blocks the hairloss cause.  If it worked for you it doesn't make it the golden combo.  Biologically we are all different and another combination may work for someone else.

Do you think this is a good MSM product?

http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-liq...in-and-optimsm

What are the other TRX2 ingredients someone would have to buy to simulate TRX2?

You also bought Neogenic from Loreal to use on your hairline.  Is you combo not stopping shedding/loss in this area?

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## Ted

> Such as?  I just read around some other forums, and some dude claimed he got small boils with little floating white things inside.  That sounds...I guess nothing less than terrifying.
> 
> He a kook?


 Did he get them from MSM? Did it get better with time?

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## gutted

> Gutted, for those ppl on DHT blockers you suggest adding MSM to the regime to stop hairs shutting down but there is no point adding TRX2 as the DHT blockers will cloud results and you wont see regrowth.
> 
> Why would blocking DHT and adding TRX2 hinder regrowth?  If anything it should help because your promoting regrowth with TRX2 alongside an agent that also blocks the hairloss cause.  If it worked for you it doesn't make it the golden combo.  Biologically we are all different and another combination may work for someone else.


 msm/vitc alone is probably enough to stop any further loss, i only suggest adding the trx2 to bring dormant hairs back to those that want more regrowth/density.

The consequences of blocking dht hinders the efficacy because of reflex hyperandorgenicty (controvercial topic, but i bleieve in it). Most people continue to experinece "sheds" whilst on dht blockers because of the hormonal fluctations doing this causes, hence why i *DO NOT* recommend it for any sort of *visible/cosmetic benefit* other than keeping hairs active and *preventing dormancy*. <- this is the ONLY beneift you will get from this combo, hardly any visibile results, which we all want.
These "sheds" mean more hairs are being lost/shedded impacting the "*shed rate VS the growth rate*" tipping the balance in favour of the shed rate and will appear to the user as not working.



I fully iunderstand people are different but then again I certainly believe its a *golden* combo and *WILL* work for everyone. You should try it exactly as stated and i do belive you will see results like i have seen.

The first results in order are -
1 - reduced oily dandruff and itchiness - approx 3/4 weeks in
2 - reduced shed rate - approx 2/3/4 months in
3 - improved density - 6/9/12 months in 
4 - stableisation of mpb




> Do you think this is a good MSM product?
> 
> http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-liq...in-and-optimsm


 The one you linked to contains a few other ingredients. I use this one ->
http://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-1.../dp/B000NRXNRC

Tablets or capsules, shouldnt really matter as long as its pure.




> What are the other TRX2 ingredients someone would have to buy to simulate TRX2?


 the ingredients in trx2 are available on the site, the ratios need to be as close as possible.




> You also bought Neogenic from Loreal to use on your hairline.  Is you combo not stopping shedding/loss in this area?


 It has done, but results are slow in this region. I experienced some sheds after trying and dropping some other supplements, hence why i MAY have shed in this region affecting my results.
my addition of neogenic was to compound the results that im getting now, but even then any results i experience with neogenic i will attribute to my combo and not neogenic.

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## gutted

> Did he get them from MSM? Did it get better with time?


 This is minor, i may have got some pimples, but they dissappeared within a few days. I remember i got headaches. The best thing to do would be to slowly up your dosage of msm.

3grams, then 6 grams, and then stick with 9 grams.

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## new bubble

> This is minor, i may have got some pimples, but they dissappeared within a few days. I remember i got headaches. The best thing to do would be to slowly up your dosage of msm.
> 
> 3grams, then 6 grams, and then stick with 9 grams.


 I can  vouch for this MSM regime, for me personally I was shedding lots of hair over the last two months, after talking to Gutted he recommended MSM along with TGEL shampoo. Within two weeks shedding had slowed down a fair amount. So I will personally stick with it for the next twelve months.

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## MrBlonde

> I can  vouch for this MSM regime, for me personally I was shedding lots of hair over the last two months, after talking to Gutted he recommended MSM along with TGEL shampoo. Within two weeks shedding had slowed down a fair amount. So I will personally stick with it for the next twelve months.


 Sounds promising.

I think i'll jump aboard.

Gutted and co. would you recommend this type of MSM?

https://www.hollandandbarrett.ie/pag...rm=msm&rdcnt=1

Its the only one I could buy today without having to order online.

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## new bubble

> Sounds promising.
> 
> I think i'll jump aboard.
> 
> Gutted and co. would you recommend this type of MSM?
> 
> https://www.hollandandbarrett.ie/pag...rm=msm&rdcnt=1
> 
> Its the only one I could buy today without having to order online.


 below is where i got mine from, this link was sent to me by gutted. I don't think he'll mind :Smile: 

http://www.bodykind.com/product/289_...000mg-Capsules

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## gutted

> Sounds promising.
> 
> I think i'll jump aboard.
> 
> Gutted and co. would you recommend this type of MSM?
> 
> https://www.hollandandbarrett.ie/pag...rm=msm&rdcnt=1
> 
> Its the only one I could buy today without having to order online.


 should be ok. any one with msm only.

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## Davey Jones

> Did he get them from MSM? Did it get better with time?


 Some people on that forum seemed to suggest an allergic reaction.  I think he may have discontinued the MSM, if I remember right.  So it'd be hard to say.

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## ovoxo

> msm/vitc alone is probably enough to stop any further loss,


 that's it? I mean sounds great, but it's kinda hard to believe. I'm desperate so gonna try anyway. My itching is really bad, getting rid of it would be great.

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## gutted

> that's it? I mean sounds great, but it's kinda hard to believe. I'm desperate so gonna try anyway. My itching is really bad, getting rid of it would be great.


 yep. try it. 9 grams msm and vitc 4grams. stops the itch and excessive oily dandruff in 3/4 weeks.

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## TheDude

If your taking 9 grams a day, how many bottles of MSM are you buying?

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## Dazza

Is there any harm in trying this combo while also on fin?

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## gutted

> If your taking 9 grams a day, how many bottles of MSM are you buying?


 1 bottle seems to last me roughly a month.

the maintanence dose is anything between 6-9grams per day of msm.
msm is pretty cheap.

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## gutted

> Is there any harm in trying this combo while also on fin?


 no harm. but probably no visible results either.

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## Dazza

> no harm. but probably no visible results either.


 More for the oily forehead/dandruff

I have no head itch

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## gutted

> More for the oily forehead/dandruff
> 
> I have no head itch


 
yeah it will sort it out, but the oilyness and dandruff implies fin is boosting your andorgen levels somehow hence why msm/vit c may not be potent enough to counteract this.

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## Dazza

> yeah it will sort it out, but the oilyness and dandruff implies fin is boosting your andorgen levels somehow hence why msm/vit c may not be potent enough to counteract this.


 While I have no visible dandruff I do have a oily forehead and oily scalp if I don't wash my hair for a da or two.

I had a oily head before I was on fin.

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## gutted

> While I have no visible dandruff I do have a oily forehead and oily scalp if I don't wash my hair for a da or two.
> 
> I had a oily head before I was on fin.


 yeah you can try it, but i highly doubt it will visibily help whilst on fin.
You should try a 12grams maintenace dose of msm and then consider sticking to that.

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## Dazza

> yeah you can try it, but i highly doubt it will visibily help whilst on fin.
> You should try a 12grams maintenace dose of msm and then consider sticking to that.


 Cheers buddy.

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## gutted

> Cheers buddy.


 no probs. stick with it, let us know how you get on.

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## MoreCoffee

I would like to see pics.  I am not on a DHT inhibitor because I cannot tolerate.  Every time I tried MSM my scalp got oily and itchy and hair shed big time!

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## gutted

> I would like to see pics.  I am not on a DHT inhibitor because I cannot tolerate.  Every time I tried MSM my scalp got oily and itchy and hair shed big time!


 what makes you say it was the msm?
if you got *OFF* dht blockers around the time you started msm, there lies your problem. You need to wait until everything balances out before you notice any effects with msm/vitc.

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## Erick

This makes no sense, why would it not work with fin: in the contrary, it should work even better, I'm not getting a single side effect from fin so it makes sense to add vit C. I am already taking msm and fin. My hair used to be really oily but then I started using nizoral and is all good now. I hear a lot of bad side effects from trx2 and on top of that it super expensive

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## yeahyeahyeah

http://www.trx2.com/store/hair-loss-..._study_results

before - after photos of trx2

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## Erick

> http://www.trx2.com/store/hair-loss-..._study_results
> 
> before - after photos of trx2


 Well obviously they're going to post some good photos. They're trying to sell the product ffs, they usually put some good results in sites like these. Those don't look like they grew that much. The video testimonials are fishy, they sound like they're reading from a script. Man $200 for 3 month supply, and that if you get their best offer

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## gutted

> This makes no sense, why would it not work with fin: in the contrary, it should work even better, I'm not getting a single side effect from fin so it makes sense to add vit C. I am already taking msm and fin. My hair used to be really oily but then I started using nizoral and is all good now. I hear a lot of bad side effects from trx2 and on top of that it super expensive


 i didnt say it wouldnt work, i said you will most likley not witness any visible results along with fin, hence why i say dont expect much apart from keeping hairs out of dormancy.

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## Ted

> This makes no sense, why would it not work with fin: in the contrary, it should work even better, I'm not getting a single side effect from fin so it makes sense to add vit C. I am already taking msm and fin. My hair used to be really oily but then I started using nizoral and is all good now. I hear a lot of bad side effects from trx2 and on top of that it super expensive


 Please give us one source that claims side effects from trx2. I have read about trx2 since it got out and never heard of side effects. 

Tim: My scalp also got oily when I started MSM but after a while it got back to normal again.

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## sizzlinghairs

> This makes no sense, why would it not work with fin: in the contrary, it should work even better, I'm not getting a single side effect from fin so it makes sense to add vit C. I am already taking msm and fin. My hair used to be really oily but then I started using nizoral and is all good now. I hear a lot of bad side effects from trx2 and on top of that it super expensive


 bad side effects? lol. please show us where these "bad side effects" are. I have been taking trx2 for over a year and no side effects whatsoever. Nor have I heard of anyone getting side effects except the occasional niacin flush.

----------


## gutted

> bad side effects? lol. please show us where these "bad side effects" are. I have been taking trx2 for over a year and no side effects whatsoever. Nor have I heard of anyone getting side effects except the occasional niacin flush.


 something tells me erick is "highlander" undercover.

Theres no side effects to trx2. Some have said they get the niacin flush, and thats about it.

----------


## Erick

> something tells me erick is "highlander" undercover.
> 
> Theres no side effects to trx2. Some have said they get the niacin flush, and thats about it.


 Highlander, are you f****g kidding me!!! I do admit I probably seen some bad stuff on forums about trx2, the niacin flush sounds about right. So I did over exaggerated the side effects thing. Anyways, I don't have anything against trx2 except the price, as a matter of fact I think i'm going to order it in this week. Which one would you guys choose Neogenic or trx2 if you wanted to give one a try?

----------


## AgainstThis

The only side effect I got from almost two years on TRX2 is that I got considerably more buff due to the carnitine. I've always worked out but never took supplements. With the carnitine everyone started commenting on me having biceps and shoulders and whatnot.

Libido like a ****ing lecherous leprechaun  :Big Grin:

----------


## vinnytr

> The only side effect I got from almost two years on TRX2 is that I got considerably more buff due to the carnitine. I've always worked out but never took supplements. With the carnitine everyone started commenting on me having biceps and shoulders and whatnot.
> 
> Libido like a ****ing lecherous leprechaun


 
What NW were you when you started trx2 ? Do you take it with other stuff ? 
What benefits have you seen in 2 years of usage ?

----------


## Cob984

Hi Gutted,
What is your opinion on saw palmetto with your program, I am taking saw palmetto 320 mg daily and while most people dont believe in it im convinced its lowering my dht cause I have some of the same side affects associated with Fin but it undoubtedly helps my hair though not to the degree I would like. I am considering getting on your program so that I can reduce my dosage to probably 160 a day and then hopefully phase the saw palmetto out completely.
Thanks

----------


## TheDude

I'm taking MSM from solal technologies and there's only 700mg per capsule..

That means over 9 capsules a day to get 9 grams..

What brand are you taking?

----------


## gutted

> Highlander, are you f****g kidding me!!! I do admit I probably seen some bad stuff on forums about trx2, the niacin flush sounds about right. So I did over exaggerated the side effects thing. Anyways, I don't have anything against trx2 except the price, as a matter of fact I think i'm going to order it in this week. Which one would you guys choose Neogenic or trx2 if you wanted to give one a try?


 trx2 ingredients all day everyday! For a natrual supplement product this kicks ass. I agree with you on the price.

----------


## gutted

> Hi Gutted,
> What is your opinion on saw palmetto with your program, I am taking saw palmetto 320 mg daily and while most people dont believe in it im convinced its lowering my dht cause I have some of the same side affects associated with Fin but it undoubtedly helps my hair though not to the degree I would like. I am considering getting on your program so that I can reduce my dosage to probably 160 a day and then hopefully phase the saw palmetto out completely.
> Thanks


 i tried it with the combo and do believe it can have the same sides as fin (as any method of dht inhibition would) it doesnt work, you will continue to *shed* hairs, not neccasarily *go bald*, hence why i do not recomend any sort of dht inhibition, the key to more density/regrowth is the synchronisation of the  shed rate Vs the growth rate.

Once youve achieved this, give it 3/6 months you will have more hairs on your scalp.

----------


## gutted

> I'm taking MSM from solal technologies and there's only 700mg per capsule..
> 
> That means over 9 capsules a day to get 9 grams..
> 
> What brand are you taking?


 doctors best brand 

i use this -> http://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-1.../dp/B000NRXNRC

----------


## Cob984

thanks gutted,
I would love to believe this works but am still skeptical of getting off the dht blocker for such an extended trial, believe it or not my balding rather thinning is incredibly aggressive, even a few weeks of getting off saw palmetto deteriorates my hair like crazy. In fact inspite of the sides i was thinking of getting on fin and talking zma and dim with it or an antiaromatose for the sides.
I am just worried that i spend all this time on this treatment and i lose a lot of time to mpb. Besides if this is like an oral minox , shouldnt this also work well with somthing like FIN/SP? i see your explanation but am still a bit confused

----------


## ammin

@Gutted- First time poster here. Just so I am clear 6 gms of MSM/ 1-4 gms of Vit C should be enough to stop hair loss in it's tracks. 

I use Nizoral and Hairomega 3 in 1 as anti-androgens. Should I stop using those to allow MSM/Vit C combo to take its purported effect?

Incidentally, I am taking Viviscal and lasercomb as growth factors.

Look forward to your cues.


Thanks!

----------


## gutted

> @Gutted- First time poster here. Just so I am clear 6 gms of MSM/ 1-4 gms of Vit C should be enough to stop hair loss in it's tracks.


 yeah. I would stick to 9 grams maintenance dose for the first 2/3 months and then reduce to 6 if you want but 6grams is ok. Vitc - anything between 1gram to 4grams per day is enough.




> I use Nizoral and Hairomega 3 in 1 as anti-androgens. Should I stop using those to allow MSM/Vit C combo to take its purported effect?
> 
> Incidentally, I am taking Viviscal and lasercomb as growth factors.
> 
> Look forward to your cues.
> 
> 
> Thanks!


 nizoral 1&#37; is ok but i reccomend tgel. As for the dht blockers, its better to phase it out or stop completley and wait for everything to balance out and return to normal, this can take 1-3 months. Be sure to take the msm/vitc combo as soon as you drop the dht blockers.

laser comb works in a similar fashion as trx2, but not neccassary as for viviscal, again its not neccassary, you can drop it if you wish.

----------


## ammin

Appreciate it Gutted ! 

Two final Questions.

What about the use of topical anti-androgens like Revivogen Scalp Therapy alongside MSM/Vitamin C ? Will that affect your suggested combo's efficacy?

Secondly, do you think we could use this combo until the next set of side-effect free treatments (CB-03-01, PGD2 Inhibitors) emerge? In other words , is it safe to ingest the recommended MSM/Vit C dosage for the next 5 years?

----------


## nw2kid

Why do you not recommend msm/vit c with dht blockers?  You claim it will keep hairs from going dormant.  Isn't that beating mpb?

----------


## gutted

> Appreciate it Gutted ! 
> 
> One final Question.
> 
> What about the use of topical anti-androgens like Revivogen Scalp Therapy alongside MSM/Vitamin C ? Will that affect your suggested combo's efficacy?


 it may be ok, but this combo should be enough alone.

----------


## gutted

> Why do you not recommend msm/vit c with dht blockers?  You claim it will keep hairs from going dormant.  Isn't that beating mpb?


 
i dont reccomend any dht blockers with the combo?

Using dht blockers causes an upregulation that affecs the efficacy of the combo hence why i dont recomend it. All that is needed is msm, vitc to stop mpb and for more regrowth the trx2 ingredients.

----------


## gutted

> thanks gutted,
> I would love to believe this works but am still skeptical of getting off the dht blocker for such an extended trial, believe it or not my balding rather thinning is incredibly aggressive, even a few weeks of getting off saw palmetto deteriorates my hair like crazy. In fact inspite of the sides i was thinking of getting on fin and talking zma and dim with it or an antiaromatose for the sides.
> I am just worried that i spend all this time on this treatment and i lose a lot of time to mpb. Besides if this is like an oral minox , shouldnt this also work well with somthing like FIN/SP? i see your explanation but am still a bit confused


 yes i understand where you are coming from and does require a leap of faith on your part, but im confident this will work on anyone. The invisible resuts (the decerease in the mpb symptoms) are pretty fast and you DO NOT neccassarily have to wait that long to tell whether or not this combo will be working for you in the longer term like you have to with propecia.

Im pretty confident using this combo with any sort of dht blockers will not yeild any sort of *visbile* results only that the hairs will remain active and prevent them from going dormant. You can have a try and find out the hard way but you should be aware to *NOT* expect thicker hair/or denser hair, and even if you do, it will be from the propecia, which is short lived.

As for the aggressive balders perhaps trying and staying at a 12 grams per day maintenance dose may help.

----------


## ammin

> "Im pretty confident using this combo with any sort of dht blockers will not yeild any sort of *visbile* results only that the hairs will remain active and prevent them from going dormant. E]"


 Sorry to belabor the point but does your conviction apply as robustly to topical DHT blockers- like Revivogen scalp therapy too

----------


## MrBlonde

Gutted you seem pretty sure its best to use this combo on its own for the best results.  You don't think oral DHT blockers will yield the best results and you also recommend taking MSM/VitC and TRX2 on an empty stomach right?  For maximum efficacy.

Would you also advise a person to drop any other supplements they may be taking.  Biotin, Lipoic acid, Reversatol and turmeric curcumin etc?  

There are some natural DHT lowering vitamins out there also such as aged Garlic extract and Omega 3 (more for PGD2 lowering).  Would it be a bad idea to take these in between doses of MSM and TRX2?

----------


## gutted

> Gutted you seem pretty sure its best to use this combo on its own for the best results.  You don't think oral DHT blockers will yield the best results and you also recommend taking MSM/VitC and TRX2 on an empty stomach right?  For maximum efficacy.
> 
> Would you also advise a person to drop any other supplements they may be taking.  Biotin, Lipoic acid, Reversatol and turmeric curcumin etc?  
> 
> There are some natural DHT lowering vitamins out there also such as aged Garlic extract and Omega 3 (more for PGD2 lowering).  Would it be a bad idea to take these in between doses of MSM and TRX2?


 you can take on an empty stomach or 30 mins after food.

i dont reccomend anything else since, they may interact with the efficacy, so far only msm/vit c and trx2 (for regrowth) are required alone, so it would be best to drop the other supplements they are on for hair related reasons. Msm/vit c is pretty much cost effective.

As for the aged garlic extract and the curcumin, which i tried along with the combo, did induce a shed for reasons im not sure about, and did not yeild any sort of results, so i dont reccomend using them along side the combo, it will just affect the potential of msm/vitc/trx2.

----------


## ovoxo

What about rogaine? I guess it's ok to use it along msm

----------


## gutted

> What about rogaine? I guess it's ok to use it along msm


 yeah rogaine should be ok.

In fact i would like to know whether this combo can stop the dredded shed that occurs when a person stops rogaine! im pretty confident it can.

----------


## gutted

> Sorry to belabor the point but does your conviction apply as robustly to topical DHT blockers- like Revivogen scalp therapy too


 yes, theres a chance that some of the therapy could quite possibly get into the blood stream causing the effects of upregulation, but this is reduced with topicals, so MAY be ok. Either way upregulation will affect the efficacy of this combo.

Blocking dht is really not neccassary here. This combo blocks what dht initiates further along the pathway, hence why there is *NO* need to block dht.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yes, theres a chance that some of the therapy could quite possibly get into the blood stream causing the effects of upregulation, but this is reduced with topicals, so MAY be ok. Either way upregulation will affect the efficacy of this combo.
> 
> Blocking dht is really not neccassary here. This combo blocks what dht initiates further along the pathway, hence why there is *NO* need to block dht.


 This reminds me of how the toco thread started  :Wink: 

Can you post pics?

----------


## Davey Jones

> As for the aged garlic extract and the curcumin, which i tried along with the combo, did induce a shed for reasons im not sure about, and did not yeild any sort of results, so i dont reccomend using them along side the combo, it will just affect the potential of msm/vitc/trx2.


 Sorry if this was already said, but the reason for the MSM is as a source of dietary sulfur, right?  Why would garlic work in a way opposite MSM then?  Garlic is awesome for that.  How long did you give it to see results?  Could the shed not have been unrelated and/or caused by another variable?

And as a side note, curcumin (or I'd say whole turmeric, really) is just plain too good for your body to _not_ take, in my opinion.

----------


## MrBlonde

This seems like one of the best MSM products I have seen online in terms of cost and dosage.

http://www.highernature.co.uk/ShowPr...ctFamilyID=158

If you click the label tab and move the cursor over the ingedients part of the label you can get a good run down on whats in each tablet.

Do you think its good value Gutted in terms of giving you the purest MSM available?

----------


## gutted

> This reminds me of how the toco thread started 
> 
> Can you post pics?


 toco8 efficacy probably comes from blocking the AR receptor directly. I have tried it in the past  for 6 months, i didnt recognise any benefit to it what so ever apart from sexual sides, and i am highly observationally aware when it comes to hair.

As for the pics i wouldnt post them on an open forum. Even then you cant tell the between the difference from the before and after photo, due to angle irregularities and density cant be seen easily via an aerial photograph unless you were pretty severeley diffuse in the before photograph. All i can say is try it *as directed* and im pretty sure you will notice benefits.

----------


## gutted

> Sorry if this was already said, but the reason for the MSM is as a source of dietary sulfur, right?  Why would garlic work in a way opposite MSM then?  Garlic is awesome for that.  How long did you give it to see results?  Could the shed not have been unrelated and/or caused by another variable?


 Yes the sulphur is the key component of garlic and taken with vitc pretty much has the same effct as msm but it also contains other compounds to it which may have other oppossite effects im not sure of and which i probably did experience from the AGE. In fact taking raw galric initially was i how i discovered the importance of sulphur. 




> And as a side note, curcumin (or I'd say whole turmeric, really) is just plain too good for your body to _not_ take, in my opinion.


 As for curcumin, yes the studies are there and a great addition for other health reasons but for hair i really cant reccomend it. Dont use it with the combo.

Im pretty sure it was the kyolic AGE/curcumin that i was taking that induced a shed, im not sure why. To me shedding is a bad thing regardless of what you might believe. With msm/vitc/trx2 you will not experience any sort of shed.

You can use a myriad of supplements that have some studies to suggest they combat mpb but the fact is using all those supplments is not only slightley incovenient but also probably pretty expensive.
MSM/vitc is pretty much a cost effective way of stopping mpb.

----------


## gutted

> This seems like one of the best MSM products I have seen online in terms of cost and dosage.
> 
> http://www.highernature.co.uk/ShowPr...ctFamilyID=158
> 
> If you click the label tab and move the cursor over the ingedients part of the label you can get a good run down on whats in each tablet.
> 
> Do you think its good value Gutted in terms of giving you the purest MSM available?


 You should really use one with "optimsm" and its good value.

http://www.google.co.uk/products/cat...ed=0CEgQ8wIwAA

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> toco8 efficacy probably comes from blocking the AR receptor directly. I have tried it in the past  for 6 months, i didnt recognise any benefit to it what so ever apart from sexual sides, and i am highly observationally aware when it comes to hair.
> 
> As for the pics i wouldnt post them on an open forum. Even then you cant tell the between the difference from the before and after photo, due to angle irregularities and density cant be seen easily via an aerial photograph unless you were pretty severeley diffuse in the before photograph. All i can say is try it *as directed* and im pretty sure you will notice benefits.


 If you are maintaining , then that is good enough.

And I have experienced no sides since taking toco, if anything my labido has gone through the roof.

----------


## gutted

> If you are maintaining , then that is good enough.
> 
> And I have experienced no sides since taking toco, if anything my labido has gone through the roof.


 yeh maintenance is good,but reversal is better  :Smile: 

Your libido going through the roof implies upregulation of some sort. Hence using it with the combo, efficacy will be affected.

----------


## MrBlonde

> You should really use one with "optimsm" and its good value.
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/products/cat...ed=0CEgQ8wIwAA


 Whats the difference between optimsm and MSM if you don't mind me asking?

----------


## gutted

> Whats the difference between optimsm and MSM if you don't mind me asking?


 
What is OptiMSM?
The premiere branded MSM ingredient produced by Bergstrom Nutrition and available from NutraSense. OptiMSM is held to strict product specifications, making it the highest quality and most consistent MSM available on the market. OptiMSM is organic sulfur that appears as a white, crystalline, water-soluble powder that is available in a variety of topical applications and internal dosage types. It is non-toxic, non-allergenic, and always 99.9% pure. Bergstrom Nutrition, the sole maker of the raw material OptiMSM, is the original United States producer licensed under the R. J. Herschler domestic and foreign patents.

http://www.nutrasense.com/faq_msm.html

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yeh maintenance is good,but reversal is better 
> 
> Your libido going through the roof implies upregulation of some sort. Hence using it with the combo, efficacy will be affected.


 Yes testosterone.

----------


## gutted

> Yes testosterone.


 quite possibly that or AR upregulation.
The only component in toco8 that could affect androgen balance is beta sis, and its at minute levels, imagine how fin affects androgen balance!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yeh maintenance is good,but reversal is better 
> 
> Your libido going through the roof implies upregulation of some sort. Hence using it with the combo, efficacy will be affected.


 Tbh I am exercising heavily ATM - so I am generally a lot more hornier.

----------


## bananana

Guys, is this safe for oral use or is it just a chemical that is used to produce a oral-safe version of MSM?

http://www.makana-shop.de/juergen993...ein-1000g.html

1 kilo for 10 euro.

----------


## gutted

> Guys, is this safe for oral use or is it just a chemical that is used to produce a oral-safe version of MSM?
> 
> http://www.makana-shop.de/juergen993...ein-1000g.html
> 
> 1 kilo for 10 euro.


 have no idea. probably best to contact them and ask if its safe for oral use.

----------


## bananana

> have no idea. probably best to contact them and ask if its safe for oral use.


 Ok, I'll do that. It says (in german) this is a "resource" for making MSM supplements.

----------


## FlightTL

I remember reading somewhere that eating raw onions was healthy for hair, due to its rich sulfur content.

Plus there is a guy online (website: hairlossreversible.com) who says his scalp exercises plus good nutrition helped him have the youthful hair till his 80s.

----------


## Jasari

From about the age of 18-21 my hair was probably the thickest it has been my entire life. I was actually taking 20grams of MSM per day primarily to help with tendon injuries i was suspect to at the time. After a while my injuries became a lot better and I dropped the MSM. Potentially co-incidence but I noticed my hair loss soon after with that all too familiar case of running your fingers through your hair and just knowing the density isn't the same. I'm 25 atm so I'm going to give it a try again. I'm already on trx2.

There really appears to be quite a big upper limit to the MSM. Do you think this ratio is kicked out of whack if you take 20 grams plus?

----------


## gutted

> From about the age of 18-21 my hair was probably the thickest it has been my entire life. I was actually taking 20grams of MSM per day primarily to help with tendon injuries i was suspect to at the time. After a while my injuries became a lot better and I dropped the MSM. Potentially co-incidence but I noticed my hair loss soon after with that all too familiar case of running your fingers through your hair and just knowing the density isn't the same. I'm 25 atm so I'm going to give it a try again. I'm already on trx2.
> 
> There really appears to be quite a big upper limit to the MSM. Do you think this ratio is kicked out of whack if you take 20 grams plus?


 no 20+ grams is fine, but for cost effectiveness anything between 9-15 grams per day is enough.

----------


## Davey Jones

> There really appears to be quite a big upper limit to the MSM. Do you think this ratio is kicked out of whack if you take 20 grams plus?


 Just a side note: high sulfur intake has been suspected in cases of thiamine (B1) deficiency in animals.  Studies with cattle, if I remember right.  But that's not a phenomenon that's restricted to non-human animals.  Vitamins and minerals compete with each other for absorption.  For instance, Vitamin C and copper are absorbed via the same pathways, thus competition.  I don't know what a "high intake" of sulfur would be for people, but if you're going to dose _that_ high, you might want to consider watching out for symptoms of B1 deficiency.  And backing off a little if you notice any.

But as another side note, don't get your hopes too high.  I realize that you stopped taking MSM and then your hair started to thin, but that is a pretty common time in life to expect hair thinning anyway.  I can vouch for that.  I'm not saying this sort of treatment doesn't work, but there is not a lot of proof.  Try to approach it hoping that it will work, but realizing and accepting that it might not.

I'm highly considering it myself, as soon as I sort out some money difficulties.  The difficulty being that it's very difficult to have no money.

----------


## bananana

Gutted, what do you think about intake of equol and MSM, can they interfere with each other?

I'm taking equol for almost 2 months and I'm seeing lowered itch, now I plan to start MSM, can I take those together? 
Any thoughts?

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, what do you think about intake of equol and MSM, can they interfere with each other?
> 
> I'm taking equol for almost 2 months and I'm seeing lowered itch, now I plan to start MSM, can I take those together? 
> Any thoughts?


 it will depend on how much of your dht is supressed through equol.
If its a pretty low dosage. Then it probably wouldnt hurt much as long as a balance is maintained, which is difficult to figure out since everyone is unique.

Anything that affects androgen balance, whether its through 5 alpha reductase suppression or direct dht suppression will have an effect on efficacy.

----------


## bananana

> it will depend on how much of your dht is supressed through equol.
> If its a pretty low dosage. Then it probably wouldnt hurt much as long as a balance is maintained, which is difficult to figure out since everyone is unique.
> 
> Anything that affects androgen balance, whether its through 5 alpha reductase suppression or direct dht suppression will have an effect on efficacy.


 Hm, I understand, but equol is not a dht blocker, is it? It bounds to DHT and stops it from bounding to receptors in follicule area (this is my layman explanation), so the DHT is there, but can't hurt the follicule. 
I'm taking 10 mg daily.

----------


## gutted

> Hm, I understand, *but equol is not a dht blocker*, is it? It bounds to DHT and stops it from bounding to receptors in follicule area (this is my layman explanation), so the DHT is there, but can't hurt the follicule. 
> I'm taking 10 mg daily.


 equol is a dht blocker. Fin more correctly is a 5alphareductase blocker (indirect dht blocker)
your still lowering your levels of dht in the body, the only difference between fin is the way you are achieving this. This may cause an imbalance which (depending on the dose you take) causes the body to upregulate, in what ever way it sees fit.

----------


## MrBlonde

> equol is a dht blocker. Fin more correctly is a 5alphareductase blocker (indirect dht blocker)
> your still lowering your levels of dht in the body, the only difference between fin is the way you are achieving this. This may cause an imbalance which (depending on the dose you take) causes the body to upregulate, in what ever way it sees fit.


 Your against all types of DHT blockers with this system 100% than gutted?  Even a topical like Lipogaine is a no no you think?

http://www.amazon.com/Lipogaine-Men-...A3VRZLYFUO9MK5

Neogenic and Minox are okay though.  I know even topical DHT blockers can work their way into your bloodstream but wouldn't that amount be minimal enough not to effect your TRX2 reccomendations?

----------


## gutted

> Your against all types of DHT blockers with this system 100&#37; than gutted?  Even a topical like Lipogaine is a no no you think?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Lipogaine-Men-...A3VRZLYFUO9MK5
> 
> Neogenic and Minox are okay though.  I know even topical DHT blockers can work their way into your bloodstream but wouldn't that amount be minimal enough not to effect your TRX2 reccomendations?


 

Yes any sort of internal dht blocker will affect the efficacy of this, and when it does affect the efficacy, it affects it big time. 
As for lthe azeliac acid in lipogaine im aware its a dht inhibtor, it could get into the blood stream and affect androgen balance but since its in topical form it "may" be minimal.

I say "may" because even if you decide to block 100% dht "topically" there is still a possibility that the hair follicle cells will continue to upregulate AR's if they do not recieve enough dht stimulation, so the real key here is to find a balance and maintain that balance.
Im currently experimenting with this scenario so cant say anything for definite but early indications say do not use any dht blockers with the combo, internal or topical.

I dont know what to say about neogenic for now, i wont comment on it.
Minox is OK, but bothersome for some with long hair and incovenient, so isnt really neccasary, this combo does what minox does internally and consistently as well as addresses the *real* cause of baldness. Im pretty confident this can take over minoxidil growth, just need someone to be a guine pig!

----------


## ovoxo

well, i'm on msm and vitamin c, so i'll let you know if something happens

----------


## gutted

> well, i'm on msm and vitamin c, so i'll let you know if something happens


 12 month dedication required!

----------


## ammin

I really cant stop the topical antiandrogen - Hair loss has been taking an emotional and professional toll on me. Consequently, I am too scared to forsake the results I have observed from my current regimen, namely: Revivogen,Viviscal Laser Comb, 6 mg MSM, 1 gm Vit C, Nizoral, 1000 IU Vitamin D3 and B complex. 

I dont want to lose any more hair or hair thickness. What do you reckon Gutted? Can I keep what I have on my current regimen. My MPB doesnt seem to be aggressive and my father is a NW 3.5-4 at 59.

----------


## gutted

> I really cant stop the topical antiandrogen - Hair loss has been taking an emotional and professional toll on me. *Consequently, I am too scared to forsake the results I have observed from my current regimen,* namely: Revivogen,Viviscal Laser Comb, 6 mg MSM, 1 gm Vit C, Nizoral, 1000 IU Vitamin D3 and B complex. 
> 
> I dont want to lose any more hair or hair thickness. What do you reckon Gutted? Can I keep what I have on my current regimen. My MPB doesnt seem to be aggressive and my father is a NW 3.5-4 at 59.


 
it is this reason why propecia continues to sell making its producers billions! the fear of losing something, that may not neccsarily be "susceptible" to loss.

to answer your question, if you can afford the regime your on, and its working for you then i guess it would be fine, but you should realise any "sheds" will be from androgen imbalances and not from the vitc/msm combo. The vitc/msm combo works to normalise these sheds rather than promote sheds.

----------


## Erick

> 12 month dedication required!


 Man why does this disease take so long to treat, it so retarded we have to wait so much before we see any results. 

On a side note gutted, I should be getting my case of Neogenic this week, what are you using to apply it?

----------


## measured optimism

Gutted, thanks for sharing this info. Interesting and promising stuff! 

I too have gone to using generic ingredients, but I have wondered what is so important about the BCAA to l-carnitine ratio?  Anyone? 

Also where on the trx2 site is there mention of msm being supportive of the mechanism?  I have started on 2gms msm per day, how much vitamin C do I need to take along with it? 

Best.

----------


## gutted

> Man why does this disease take so long to treat, it so retarded we have to wait so much before we see any results.


 It takes 10-20 years for any sign of mpb to kick in you should expect results to appear in a similar manner.
At least with this combo early results are noticeable within the first few weeks of starting (providing your not on any sort of androgen suppression)
With propecia it takes 12-24 months and even then its not garaunteed to "work" for you when in theory it *should* be "garaunteed" since you are removing, (what you believe to be) the cause of mpb, should it not?




> On a side note gutted, I should be getting my case of Neogenic this week, what are you using to apply it?


 i wouldnt get your hopes up on this, it should be treated as just another growth stimulant. If you dont address the cause of mpb then any growth from this will be offset against your uncontrolled mpb giving you the perception that its not grown a single hair.

Think of it like this -> you originally had 10 hairs on a region of scalp and you grow 5 new hairs in the same region of your scalp using neogenic BUT you at the same time lose 5 hairs from that region to mpb = you still end up with a baseline net total of 10 hairs in that region. Pretty much pointless.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, thanks for sharing this info. Interesting and promising stuff! 
> 
> I too have gone to using generic ingredients, but I have wondered what is so important about the BCAA to l-carnitine ratio?  Anyone?


 I have no idea. I guess only they know the secret to thier sauce.




> Also where on the trx2 site is there mention of msm being supportive of the mechanism?  I have started on 2gms msm per day, how much vitamin C do I need to take along with it? 
> 
> Best.


 its on there somewhere, when i look for it again i will post the link. I think i read it on the blog somehwere.

----------


## MrBlonde

> It takes 10-20 years for any sign of mpb to kick in you should expect results to appear in a similar manner.
> At least with this combo early results are noticeable within the first few weeks of starting


 Exactly what signs are you talking about here gutted?

----------


## gutted

> Exactly what signs are you talking about here gutted?


 discussed in the first few pages somewhere ->

The first results in order are -
1 - reduced oily dandruff and itchiness - approx 3/4 weeks in
2 - reduced shed rate - approx 2/3/4 months in
3 - improved density - 6/9/12 months in
4 - stableisation of mpb

----------


## Erick

> discussed in the first few pages somewhere ->
> 
> The first results in order are -
> 1 - reduced oily dandruff and itchiness - approx 3/4 weeks in
> 2 - reduced shed rate - approx 2/3/4 months in
> 3 - improved density - 6/9/12 months in
> 4 - stableisation of mpb


 You mentioned that something about androgen which I am not really knowledgeable about this.

Here is what I am taking

1. Fin (about 2 years on it, and happy to say it has worked great for me and basically stopped the hairloss) 
2. Nizoral 1% (once a week)
3. Sulfate free shampoo
4. MSM

Does anything there contain androgen?

----------


## gutted

> You mentioned that something about androgen which I am not really knowledgeable about this.
> 
> Here is what I am taking
> 
> 1. Fin (about 2 years on it, and happy to say it has worked great for me and basically stopped the hairloss) 
> 2. Nizoral 1% (once a week)
> 3. Sulfate free shampoo
> 4. MSM
> 
> Does anything there contain androgen?


 dht & testosterone = androgens

----------


## MrBlonde

Gutted did you go through an shed phase when starting MSMS/Vit C/TRX2 like those associated with Minox or Fin?

If so how long did it last and how severe was it?

----------


## gutted

> Gutted did you go through an shed phase when starting MSMS/Vit C/TRX2 like those associated with Minox or Fin?
> 
> If so how long did it last and how severe was it?


 no there will be no shed.
If you percieve more shedding of hair, it is only hair that would have shedded anyway OR shedding becausing your on other treatments that are inducing these sheds. 
You should experience a reduction in these sheds by months 3+.

----------


## ovoxo

since taking msm, I got reaction that I have different body odor. Anyone experienced it?

----------


## MrBlonde

> no there will be no shed.
> If you percieve more shedding of hair, it is only hair that would have shedded anyway OR shedding becausing your on other treatments that are inducing these sheds. 
> You should experience a reduction in these sheds by months 3+.


 
Thanks for the reply.  How long has it been since you hit the 12 month mark on this regime? and how much density would you say you have gained? and would you consider your MPB has stopped right now ie no shedding and thicker hair?

Would you say the results are better or worse than those seen here with Minox/FIN?

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/medi...atient-photos/

----------


## gutted

> since taking msm, I got reaction that I have different body odor. Anyone experienced it?


 yes! its because of the sulphur!

----------


## gutted

> Thanks for the reply.  How long has it been since you hit the 12 month mark on this regime? and how much density would you say you have gained? and would you consider your MPB has stopped right now ie no shedding and thicker hair?
> 
> Would you say the results are better or worse than those seen here with Minox/FIN?
> 
> http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/medi...atient-photos/


 12 month was reached earlier this year in january.

ive regained a lot of lost hair for sure, id say about 50% and i still consider myself to be regaining the lost hairs over time.

i recentley introduced some new supplements in may to august so did experience a shed during this period,which are begining to return since stopping, i do believe this halted progress for a bit.

the best picture to describe what i am experiencing is -> http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/phot...atient-tri.jpg

shedding has returned to normal levels. I will provide an update in 3 months time.

----------


## MrBlonde

> shedding has returned to normal levels. I will provide an update in 3 months time.


 Again thanks.  

I find it a little worrying when you say shedding has returned to normal levels though. Do you mean the shed levels before you added those supplements whilst only on TRX2/VITC/MSM? thus you shed on this combo

I remember you saying results are slow in the hairline region and around the 3 month mark you see a reduction in shedding, do we need to allow extra time for hairline shedding results?  Thats the only place I'm shedding right now.

So has this combo ever stopped shedding completely in all areas or merely slowed it down and you have occasional sheds?  Shedding and growing seems a bit weird to me.  Your gaining only to loose again, the pic example you posted though is a definite gain.

You were using Rogaine/Minox with this also though right?

----------


## gutted

> Again thanks.  
> 
> I find it a little worrying when you say shedding has returned to normal levels though. Do you mean the shed levels before you added those supplements whilst only on TRX2/VITC/MSM? thus you shed on this combo


 i mean the shed levels prior to adding the new supplements during may to august. This has returned the shed levels i was enjoying prior to introducing these new supplments.




> I remember you saying results are slow in the hairline region and around the 3 month mark you see a reduction in shedding, do we need to allow extra time for hairline shedding results?  Thats the only place I'm shedding right now.


 Results are slow in this region, however results can be expected in this region too, you would need to give it time, the first tthing to do is calm sheds down. This should be eveident between 3-6 months.




> So has this combo ever stopped shedding completely in all areas or merely slowed it down and you have occasional sheds?  Shedding and growing seems a bit weird to me.  Your gaining only to loose again, the pic example you posted though is a definite gain.


 stopping shedding completey is something that isnt possible... shedding is normal. It brings hair sheds down to one that is at pre mpb levels, which is what we need. No occasional sheds, just consistent lower levels of sheds. Its all about the *shed rate Vs growth rate*.




> You were using Rogaine/Minox with this also though right?


 no i dont use minox. Minox isnt neccassary with the combo.

----------


## Ted

Gutted: Have you noticed any change in erection quality or libido?

----------


## gutted

> Gutted: Have you noticed any change in erection quality or libido?


 no not really.

----------


## Ted

> no not really.


 Sorry for being personal but I have some problems and try to find where it comes from.
Are your erection quality and libido good?

----------


## gutted

> Sorry for being personal but I have some problems and try to find where it comes from.
> Are your erection quality and libido good?


 yeah everythings good, nothing out of the ordinary down there. What are you on?

----------


## Ted

> yeah everythings good, nothing out of the ordinary down there. What are you on?


 Minox, trx2, msm, omega 3, d-vitamine and multivitamine. Stopped using finasteride and retin a 1,5 years ago.

----------


## Jcm800

Gutted-I was thinking of getting back on Minox (I still have loads left) before the dread shed hits me big time.

What do you think?  I was just thinking now that I don't smoke and am also on this regime that it actually may be of benefit. Plus I do think I'm losing ground and the dread shed is starting so I'm panicking slightly..

----------


## gutted

> Minox, trx2, msm, omega 3, d-vitamine and multivitamine. Stopped using finasteride and retin a 1,5 years ago.


 it could be the left over effects of fin? or perhaps the omega 3.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted-I was thinking of getting back on Minox (I still have loads left) before the dread shed hits me big time.
> 
> What do you think?  I was just thinking now that I don't smoke and am also on this regime that it actually may be of benefit. Plus I do think I'm losing ground and the dread shed is starting so I'm panicking slightly..


 you should try 9 grams msm and 2-4grams vitc to see if this can combat the dread shed either way im pretty confident the hairs will return a few months down the line *if* you stick with it and be consistent. 

The shed is the result of hairs that were going to exit anyway. These will normalise if you stick with it. Or else you will end up in this cycle of shedding and not shedding due to stopping and starting treatments. 

Your off the minox for how long now?

----------


## MrBlonde

Whats the dread shed?  Are you talking about the shed that comes with any treatment you start?

----------


## gutted

> Whats the dread shed?  Are you talking about the shed that comes with any treatment you start?


 the massive shed that occurs when a person gets off of minoxidil. Most people percieve this to be a sign that they are going bald when in actual fact those hairs have the possibility to return at a later date. Its mereley a simple telogen efflevium.

----------


## Jcm800

> you should try 9 grams msm and 2-4grams vitc to see if this can combat the dread shed either way im pretty confident the hairs will return a few months down the line *if* you stick with it and be consistent. 
> 
> The shed is the result of hairs that were going to exit anyway. These will normalise if you stick with it. Or else you will end up in this cycle of shedding and not shedding due to stopping and starting treatments. 
> 
> Your off the minox for how long now?


 I've been off Minox approx 2 months.  I'm taking Vit C powder in orange juice daily and knocking back the msm caps, currently 8 per day but shall move up to 9 now. 

Fingers crossed, can't say I've seen any improvement tbh so far though. Still have scalp itch and flakes/dandruff.  

Shall stick at it religiously tho. 

You wouldn't recommend getting back on Minox then?

----------


## Ted

> it could be the left over effects of fin? or perhaps the omega 3.


 The omega 3? Have never heard that omega 3 is bad for erections.

----------


## gutted

> The omega 3? Have never heard that omega 3 is bad for erections.


 yes depends on the dose i guess.
omega 3 has been shown to affect androgens.

----------


## eternal

Hey guys,
I'm trying to put together an ingredient list because I can't afford trx2.

But I'm having a hard time finding dosages to match trx2's ratios.

And I'm also having a hard time finding supplements that don't have a bunch of extra ingredients added. 

For example, I can get Biotin in 350 mcg tablets, which I can split in half to match trx2's 150 mcg dose. But the other ingredients are: Dicalcium Phosphate, Vegetable Cellulose, Vegetable Stearic Acid, Croscarmellose, Silica, Vegetable Magnesium Stearate. Seems like a lot of extra stuff but I don't know what any of it does or how it might affect the "combo". Is there even such a thing as pure Biotin?

Is anyone else making their own blend (preferably in the States to keep shipping costs down) who can provide links to where you're buying from? I'm desperate to get started on this regimen but want to make sure I'm doing it right.

A starter list would be enormously useful in helping people jump in to this program.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

Hi Gutted, 

I have been reading around this place for about a month (some really good info. here) and think I will test your theory out.

The possible Finasteride sides terrify me (I even asked my GP about it and she said not to mess with the stuff, male hormone manipulation is dangerous), and the whole 'shedding' part of Minox doesn't appeal at all.

I am probably between Norwood 3 and Norwood 3 Vetex - with diffuse thinning all over the top and front.

I am 25, and since secondary school I had a high hairline and very fine hair (although a LOT of it so it looked really great). I was a bit hair obsessed when I was younger so maybe now I am paying for my vanity  :Big Grin: 

My Dad was almost completely bald at my age so I seem to have a few more years grace than he did. 

But I still don't want to let the gene win, if I can even maintain what I have currently, I will be very happy (although my hair is very fine/thin and any thickening effects at all would be welcome!)

I got all the ingredients together (one of my book shelves looks like an aisle in Boots) and I started on Sunday and will strictly keep this up for at least a year, and update this thread with results and pics.

(I took a lot of pics last weekend as a starting point in different lighting, angles etc. and will post these with comparison pics maybe 5-6 months in depending on how things go).

So, this is my regime (daily), please let me know if I need to tweak it at all in your opinion:

4 and a half grams MSM Daily
TRX2 (3 Capsules daily)
3 grams Vitamin C
1 capsule Vitamin D3
1 capsule Tocotrienol (Suprabio)
Nizoral 2% once a week
And sometimes I use Jojoba Oil in my hair overnight when it is feeling very dry.

I also use Kerastase Stimuliste (Aminexil Spray) after I shower in the morning. I know Aminexil gets shredded on this forum, but what it does for me is stop the itch a bit. It helps that a lot and it does seem to have a thickening effect. It has NOT stopped any hair loss at all though because I have been using it for about 3 years, so I'm not really promoting it as a product, plus it's waaaaay too expensive for what it is.

I was also a casual/social smoker until a few weeks ago, and have started a fairly intense exercise regime at my gym (4 times weekly) so hopefully this will all contribute.

Sorry for the epic first post, any advice/input would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

----------


## gutted

> Hi Gutted, 
> 
> 
> 
> So, this is my regime (daily), please let me know if I need to tweak it at all in your opinion:
> 
> 4 and a half grams MSM Daily
> TRX2 (3 Capsules daily)
> 3 grams Vitamin C
> ...


 
the toco8 is a waste of money and really not required, this also has potentilal to affect androgen imbalance as well as nizoral (keto binds with the Androgen receptor). Although niz 1% may be ok if youve been using that consistently for the passed few months.
The vitamin d3 shouldnt pose any problem.

As for aminexil, im not quite sure on that. If you can afford it and you believe it helps i dont see why this would interact with the combo, although ive noticed my results solely on this combo alone, and anyone wishing to replicate this i adivise this combo only.

You should give it quite some time before you notice anything also i would stop or limit the smoking *asap*.

----------


## gutted

> Hey guys,
> I'm trying to put together an ingredient list because I can't afford trx2.
> 
> But I'm having a hard time finding dosages to match trx2's ratios.
> 
> And I'm also having a hard time finding supplements that don't have a bunch of extra ingredients added. 
> 
> For example, I can get Biotin in 350 mcg tablets, which I can split in half to match trx2's 150 mcg dose. But the other ingredients are: Dicalcium Phosphate, Vegetable Cellulose, Vegetable Stearic Acid, Croscarmellose, Silica, Vegetable Magnesium Stearate. Seems like a lot of extra stuff but I don't know what any of it does or how it might affect the "combo". Is there even such a thing as pure Biotin?
> 
> ...


 i would keep it as close as possible, doesnt need to be perfect. Just watch out on the niacin though. try to keep that as close as possible.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> the toco8 is a waste of money and really not required, this also has potentilal to affect androgen imbalance as well as nizoral (keto binds with the Androgen receptor). Although niz 1% may be ok if youve been using that consistently for the passed few months.
> The vitamin d3 shouldnt pose any problem.
> 
> As for aminexil, im not quite sure on that. If you can afford it and you believe it helps i dont see why this would interact with the combo, although ive noticed my results solely on this combo alone, and anyone wishing to replicate this i adivise this combo only.
> 
> You should give it quite some time before you notice anything also i would stop or limit the smoking *asap*.


 It's not Toco8 it's just a tocotrienol complex: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Healthy-Orig.../dp/B004KU4S6S

And money isn't something I have to worry about so I will continue with the Aminexil Spray, but like I say it is only for temporary cosmetic gains and for scalp comfort more than anything. 

But hopefully this new regime might cure 'the itch' after a month or so?

Do you think I should drop the Nizoral altohether if it could affect the combo? I'm open to suggestions because all this is far from my forté.

And ye I haven't had a cigarette for 3 weeks now and don't intend to again.

----------


## gutted

> It's not Toco8 it's just a tocotrienol complex: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Healthy-Orig.../dp/B004KU4S6S


 Yes probably best to drop it. It contains beta sitosterol all be it at lower concentrations which one could argue any affect on androgen balance is negligible.




> But hopefully this new regime might cure 'the itch' after a month or so?


 Yes you should notice this pretty fast.




> Do you think I should drop the Nizoral altohether if it could affect the combo? I'm open to suggestions because all this is far from my fort&#233;.
> 
> And ye I haven't had a cigarette for 3 weeks now and don't intend to again.


 When i tried niz 2&#37; 1 x per week, i used to get sexual sides, as well as shed alot of hair during use. Keto is known to bind to the Androgen receptor, so quite possibly affects androgen balance. I wouldnt use it, instead use a PO shampoo such as tgel.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> Yes probably best to drop it. It contains beta sitosterol all be it at lower concentrations which one could argue any affect on androgen balance is negligible.
> 
> Yes you should notice this pretty fast.
> 
> When i tried niz 2% 1 x per week, i used to get sexual sides, as well as shed alot of hair during use. Keto is known to bind to the Androgen receptor, so quite possibly affects androgen balance. I wouldnt use it, instead use a PO shampoo such as tgel.


 OK thanks, I will drop the Nizoral & Tocotrienols.

Just wondering - which T-Gel Shampoo should I use? 
There seem to be a few available?

----------


## gutted

> OK thanks, I will drop the Nizoral & Tocotrienols.
> 
> Just wondering - which T-Gel Shampoo should I use? 
> There seem to be a few available?


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neutrogena-T...115#vi-content

----------


## MrBlonde

I use Rehenepure which contains Ketoconazole.  Should I drop this?

----------


## Jcm800

> It's not Toco8 it's just a tocotrienol complex: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Healthy-Orig.../dp/B004KU4S6S
> 
> And money isn't something I have to worry about so I will continue with the Aminexil Spray, but like I say it is only for temporary cosmetic gains and for scalp comfort more than anything. 
> 
> But hopefully this new regime might cure 'the itch' after a month or so?
> 
> Do you think I should drop the Nizoral altohether if it could affect the combo? I'm open to suggestions because all this is far from my forté.
> 
> And ye I haven't had a cigarette for 3 weeks now and don't intend to again.


 13 weeks off the smokes for me -fkn hard work when stressed out about hairloss mate - but stick at it, good luck!

----------


## eternal

Gutted,
Thanks for the response. Could I get your (or anyone else's) opinion on my ingredient list? If anyone could check my links and see if I'm getting the right stuff I'd really appreciate it.

Here's what I put together:

Potassium Chloride (powder) $3.78 per bottle ~1,187 servings per bottle @ 191 mg per serving

Biotin (tablets) $2.25 per bottle 200 servings per bottle @ 150mcg per 1/2 tablet

Carnipure (tablets) $21.82 per bottle ~66 servings per bottle @ 750mg per 1.5 tablets (closest I could get to trx2's 800mg, hopefully it's close enough)

L-Leucine (powder)$11.31 per bottle ~666 servings per bottle @ 150mg per serving

Isoleucine (powder) $19.99 per bag ~3,333 servings per bag @ 75mg per serving

Valine (powder)$12.48 per bottle ~666 servings per bottle @ 75mg per serving

Nicotinic Acid (powder) $8.95 per bag 2,835 servings per bag @ 40mg per serving

OptiMSM (tablets) $6.73 per bottle 20 servings per bottle @ 9g per serving. 

And then I'll just pick up some Vitamin C at Mother's Market or Whole Foods.

I also bought a cheap milligram scale on ebay so I can measure out all the powder doses.

Scale

I haven't done the exact math but I think this'll wind up costing around $35.00 - $40.00 a month with the OptiMSM and the Carnipure being by far the most expensive part of the recipe. A lot of the powders will probably expire way before I can use them up but I'd think they'll hold up for at least a year's supply, maybe more, making them really cheap per month.

Thanks for your help  :Smile:  Hopefully I got all the ingredients right.

----------


## gutted

> I use Rehenepure which contains Ketoconazole.  Should I drop this?


 its up to you. I dont reccomend any keto. niz 1%, 1 x per week may be ok though.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted,
> Thanks for the response. Could I get your (or anyone else's) opinion on my ingredient list? If anyone could check my links and see if I'm getting the right stuff I'd really appreciate it.
> 
> Here's what I put together:
> 
> Potassium Chloride (powder) $3.78 per bottle ~1,187 servings per bottle @ 191 mg per serving
> 
> Biotin (tablets) $2.25 per bottle 200 servings per bottle @ 150mcg per 1/2 tablet
> 
> ...


 looks good to me. Im sure you can get BCAA (luecine, valine, Isoleucine) in one form, but perhaps not exactly to the required amounts.

----------


## gutted

> I've been off Minox approx 2 months.  I'm taking Vit C powder in orange juice daily and knocking back the msm caps, currently 8 per day but shall move up to 9 now. 
> 
> Fingers crossed, can't say I've seen any improvement tbh so far though. Still have scalp itch and flakes/dandruff.  
> 
> Shall stick at it religiously tho. 
> 
> You wouldn't recommend getting back on Minox then?


 i guess its up to you if you want to get back on the minox, but i wouldnt reccomend it. Dandruff is pretty normal, its the oily dandruff that is pretty much a symptom of mpb. The oil secretion should pretty much be nonexistant after a while.

What shampoo do you use?

----------


## Jcm800

> i guess its up to you if you want to get back on the minox, but i wouldnt reccomend it. Dandruff is pretty normal, its the oily dandruff that is pretty much a symptom of mpb. The oil secretion should pretty much be nonexistant after a while.
> 
> What shampoo do you use?


 I usually use 2% Niz on a Monday, and then wash hair every other day, either with T-Gel or Elvive thickening shampoo.

I'm losing ground on my crown, freaking out - can feel 'bumps' there too, inflamed feeling. Hope this regime kicks in quick or i'm fkd..

----------


## gutted

> I usually use 2% Niz on a Monday, and then wash hair every other day, either with T-Gel or Elvive thickening shampoo.
> 
> I'm losing ground on my crown, freaking out - *can feel 'bumps' there too, inflamed feeling*. Hope this regime kicks in quick or i'm fkd..


 lol

its the niz!

drop it. i got this from it too and excess hair shedding.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> lol
> 
> its the niz!
> 
> drop it. i got this from it too and excess hair shedding.


 +1

Drop the niz. Same thing happened to me.

----------


## Jcm800

> +1
> 
> Drop the niz. Same thing happened to me.


 Ok tks-I've sacked the niz, shall see if the imflamation goes away.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Ok tks-I've sacked the niz, shall see if the imflamation goes away.


 Use regenepure if you are bent on using a keto based product.

----------


## Jcm800

> Use regenepure if you are bent on using a keto based product.


 Nah, going to take a clean break from keto shampoos and see what happens.

----------


## new bubble

> Nah, going to take a clean break from keto shampoos and see what happens.


 After chatting with Gutted 6-7 weeks ago i started usin tgel shampoo he recommended and my scalp feels 10x better, almost itch free now. Good stuff

----------


## Jcm800

Cool, hopefully it'll rid me of the damn inflamed bumps I get.

----------


## gutted

> Cool, hopefully it'll rid me of the damn inflamed bumps I get.


 once the inflamation/itches have been tackled and has normalised, its only then will you see more density. Continue as is for 3 months since dropping keto and assess then.

----------


## wgj

Hi Gutted- I am intrigued by this thread and your success with this combo. Why do you think the manufacturers of TRX2 didnt just include Vit C and MSM in the product to make it more effective?   Im sorry if you discussed this already but could you explain why Nizoral 2% would hinder progress?  I though studies show that NIizoral can regrow hair as much as 2% minox.  Also, why not minox too?

----------


## gutted

> Hi Gutted- I am intrigued by this thread and your success with this combo. Why do you think the manufacturers of TRX2 didnt just include Vit C and MSM in the product to make it more effective?


 I have no idea probably to keep costs down i suppose, vit c comes from the diet anyway hence probably why theres no need, as for MSM, or sulphur, ive seen it reccomended by them on thier site which is pretty much not present in the diet as much as it should be.




> Im sorry if you discussed this already but could you explain why Nizoral 2% would hinder progress?  I though studies show that NIizoral can regrow hair as much as 2% minox.  Also, why not minox too?


 nizorals mode of action is by blocking the androgen receptor, hence why it regrows hair-> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1526623

anything that does this has a likelihood of causing an imbalance in the body via systemic absobrtion that subsequently affects hormone levels which leads to increased shedding (as witnessed by people in the early stages of propecia use)etc and the perception that mpb is progressing when in actual fact its just a shed. With this combo there will be no "shed" in fact the opposite will occur and the main aim of this combo is to reduce these sheds hence why i dont recommend any nizoral.

----------


## MrBlonde

Gutted, there were some pretty heavy accusations leveled at you yday regarding TRX2 in the Neogenic thread.

I don't believe you are working for TRX2 but the seed of doubt was planted none the less.  The reason I worry is because my self and others are putting a lot of faith in you.  I am on your combo now and ignoring Minox and Niz because of this thread.  My hair could continue to rot away if I stick with this program and it would be too late to save it further down the line.  I am already barely hanging in here.

I would like to hear your reply to the main questions asked of you yday. Why did your account start the same month TRX2 was launched. Were you a browser and just decided to give TRX2 a try as its a natural product, hence less sides and so you signed up an account?

Pictures?  We haven't seen any of your current hairline compared to your old one.  Its easy to take a photo and you can block out everything from the eyebrows down if you must and surely you have an old hairline photo from 18 months ago somewhere so we can see the improvement and decide whether its as good as what we could get on Min or Fin.  

I don't think its too much to ask that we see some proof.  If you could post pics with the case of Neogenic and TRX2 plus the slip of paper with the date and you name on it would put my mid at ease.

PS I am not attacking you but looking for validation of the faith I have put in you.

----------


## gutted

The trx2 thread in this forum was the only thread on the whole of the internet hence why i registered around the same time as trx2 release, although i was a member on other forums before the release of trx2 under "gutted" which should verify my intergrity as a real user.

As for pics ive stated this before, i dont feel comfortable posting pics on an open forum. As well as the fact that the before photos have lighting as well as angle issues, as well as the fact that the improvement is not clearley detectable in the photos. 

msm/vit c for me seems to indicate it has potential to stop hair loss, before you dive in i suggest you read the studies in the first post to get a feel of how important this is, only those who understand studies will be able to comprehend whats going on here. 

As for the accusations that i am selling or promoting trx2, you should read the thread again. You will see that i have never told anyone to buy the trx2 (*msm/vitc* can stop loss and maintain, maybe even regrow a bit, *trx2* is for regrowth but doesnt stop loss). i dont believe theres anything unique to the formula apart from the fact that the company put the time and effort into discovering what mixture of the combo provided the best results in a controlled enviroment, (which would have taken many years to discover had a lone individual done this themselves) and to me i only buy it due to convenience of having all ingredients in one pill rather than having to go out and buy the ingredients individually.

I admit it does require a leap of faith here, but the studies do speak for themselves, if you follow *as directed* and have patience, dillegence and consistency, i really do believe you will have results to...but *dont* expect overnight results. Im not saying fast results arent possible, but just dont expect them.

At the end of the day, its your hair, im only disclosing my experience and why i think im regrowing hair, you should do what you feel is good for your hair.

----------


## Cob984

Gutted, is it possible for you to just post the pictures even if i cant see an improvement, if its no worse off ill be satisfied,i am just looking to hang on here,

you can do only the top so there will be no face at all,

i hope you understand where we are coming from, this suspicion while probably unfair makes me worried, hair loss sufferers are very very prone to being taken for a ride

thanks

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, is it possible for you to just post the pictures even if i cant see an improvement, if its no worse off ill be satisfied,i am just looking to hang on here,
> 
> you can do only the top so there will be no face at all,
> 
> i hope you understand where we are coming from, this suspicion while probably unfair makes me worried, hair loss sufferers are very very prone to being taken for a ride
> 
> thanks


 sorry mate, i stand by my decision and wont be posting them. Theres no reason for any suspicion, nothing is really being sold here. i can hardly profit out of msm and vitc or trx2 for that matter!

But i do understand that putting a lot of time, effort and dedication that may not yeild results is pretty disheartening, hopefully you would read the msm and vit c study and that SHOULD be enough to convince you that it has some effects.

Like i said early effects - are visible with 3 to 6 weeks (hence, does not require a lot of time to realise it actually does something), providing you have not been on any dht inhibition therapy, if you have, and have dropped it recently, you need to wait it out before hormones are balanced out again, this can take some time hence the 3-6 week window does not apply rather 3 months.

----------


## ammin

I trust you Gutted. 

It wouldn't be heartbreaking if I lose my hair due to your sincerely held falsehood, but if the advice you disseminated was pernicioulsy self serving I would feel betrayed.

Enough said! My review of gutted's posts- and I have reviewed hundreds- lead me to conclude he is one amongst us hair loss sufferers and not a corporate shill. 

For now, lets experiment with Gutted's recommended combo and bring it to pre-eminence.

----------


## ammin

@gutted

Again, just so I am clear:  If I keep using Nizoral 1&#37; once a week and Revivogen daily with MSM and Vit C , I may not see any regrowth but will prevent my hairs from falling into dormancy? In other words, I will maintain the hair thickness and density I currently possess.

----------


## gutted

> @gutted
> 
> Again, just so I am clear:  If I keep using Nizoral 1% once a week and Revivogen daily with MSM and Vit C , I may not see any regrowth but will *prevent my hairs from falling into dormancy*? In other words, I will maintain the hair thickness and density I currently possess.


 
yes thats correct. It would be wise to drop the niz and revivogen but thats a decision only you can make.
The key to regrowth is to get the shed rate Vs Growth rate synchronised, this gives the *perception* of regrowth as less hair is falling out.

----------


## ammin

Thanks Gutted. Your repeated confirmations to my repetitive questions are much appreciated. I dont believe in Karma but if there was cosmic justice you would have a lot of it

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

I'm going to try the msm/vit c combo - worst that can happen is nothing - given they are vitamins after all.

The only issue is , how can gutted be sure that vit c and msm will do it alone. He is afterall using trx2 in conjunction to both of them.

----------


## JJJJrS

gutted has been posting on different hair loss forums long before TRX2 was released. He's a legit poster.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Just like to add as well gutted by posting pics of your hair with your face censored out won't break your anonymousity.

Even if there is no change, that is a success, it means that you have maintained.

----------


## gutted

> The only issue is , how can gutted be sure that vit c and msm will do it alone. He is afterall using trx2 in conjunction to both of them.


 i cant, but as i said earlier, the effects of msm/vit c (increased nail growth and hair growth) mimick that of benaxoprofen possibly through unknown mechanisms, which was found to reverse mpb.
Biotin is also known to do this. how? i dont know.
I also noticed when i got off msm/vitc the itch and oily dandruff would come back hence why i attribute the effects to msm/vitc and not trx2 alone.

----------


## gutted

> Just like to add as well gutted by posting pics of your hair with your face censored out won't break your anonymousity.
> 
> Even if there is no change, that is a success, it means that you have maintained.


 dude your going to have to take my word for it.
Ive done more than maintained.

You have nothing to lose apart for a few pounds. Just follow as directed without any other variables introuduced and im confident you will see results asoutlined in the thread.

----------


## AgainstThis

Yo gutted, I'm coming on board.

My hairloss is pretty much stable right now, but I want to see if adding MSM and VitC to my regime will give me some extra density or make me look less like a NW3.

Anyhow, I'm thinking of ordering that Dr. Best bottle from Amazon, the one where you get 180 1000mg pills for 10 pounds or so. You have me confused on the dosage though. You say 9 grams of MSM a day...is that like one capsule or nine?

Anyhow, I'd appreciate the breakdown.

And how many standard capsules of Vit. C?

Thanks!

----------


## AgainstThis

Yep, I just looked it up, it would be 9 1000mg pills per day.

What I wanted to ask is, how are you sure about the ratios? Why shouldn't it be 6grams of MSM and 3 of VitC for example? What makes 9 to 4 the ideal ratio?

----------


## AgainstThis

Just sat and properly read through your thread on dosages and whatnot.

Given the fact that I am not shedding anymore and have no itchiness/oiliness/dandruff, would you say that 6mg MSM/ 2mg (possibly 1mg) VitC would cut it alongside the TRX2 if I wanted to see some more density?

Thanks!

----------


## MrBlonde

> Just sat and properly read through your thread on dosages and whatnot.
> 
> Given the fact that I am not shedding anymore and have no itchiness/oiliness/dandruff, would you say that 6mg MSM/ 2mg (possibly 1mg) VitC would cut it alongside the TRX2 if I wanted to see some more density?
> 
> Thanks!


 When did you stop shedding Against this? and how long did your shedding last before it stopped?

Did you stop it with another product such as Minox or did it stop naturally? if you didn't use anything to stop the shedding did you see any natural regrowth after it stopped and regain anything lost?

I'm just wondering was it a natural loss and regrowth phase

----------


## gutted

> Just sat and properly read through your thread on dosages and whatnot.
> 
> Given the fact that I am not shedding anymore and have no itchiness/oiliness/dandruff, would you say that 6mg MSM/ 2mg (possibly 1mg) VitC would cut it alongside the TRX2 if I wanted to see some more density?
> 
> Thanks!


 yes 6 grams MSM to 1 to 4grams vit c should be ok.

----------


## AgainstThis

Mr.Blonde- After one year of being on TRX2 and 2% Keto, I kept shedding and losing hair, my NW2 progressed to a 3ish.

Then, all of a sudden, the shedding stopped. Just stopped. Some of the hair grew back, but not enough to make me a NW2 again. Still, it helped my psychology tremendously, just knowing that I get up everyday and this is my hair and it's actually NOT going to be worse by the end of the day.

I honestly cannot say whether that is down to TRX2 or natural progression. 

Whatever it is, I'm glad with it. Jumping on MSM and Vit C to see if I can regain any of the myriad of peach fuzz/vellous hairs I got going where my NW2 hairline used to be.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Mr.Blonde- After one year of being on TRX2 and 2% Keto, I kept shedding and losing hair, my NW2 progressed to a 3ish.
> 
> Then, all of a sudden, the shedding stopped. Just stopped. Some of the hair grew back, but not enough to make me a NW2 again. Still, it helped my psychology tremendously, just knowing that I get up everyday and this is my hair and it's actually NOT going to be worse by the end of the day.
> 
> I honestly cannot say whether that is down to TRX2 or natural progression. 
> 
> Whatever it is, I'm glad with it. Jumping on MSM and Vit C to see if I can regain any of the myriad of peach fuzz/vellous hairs I got going where my NW2 hairline used to be.


 keto is always shit.

----------


## gutted

> keto is always shit.


 lol it is, imo its overrated and can actually aggrevate mpb making you shed very badly!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> lol it is, imo its overrated and can actually aggrevate mpb making you shed very badly!


 i lost ground with that stuff

----------


## Jcm800

Think I'm starting to agree. The bumps on my crown seem to be going away. I've abstained from using niz this week. Hopefully they'll stay away and things will look up..

----------


## AgainstThis

I've never had a bad experience with keto, though lately, after prolonged use, I'd shed more when I used my keto shampoo. I toned it down to once every 10 days and things are back to normal.

Also, I think I'll start with 3 g's of MSM and 1 of Vit C and then work my way up to 6 and 2-3.

Should be good to ease my organism into it and I'll report any results. If it works with less pills, it's more cost effective for the dead broke amongst us  :Smile:

----------


## fl4va

hi gutted.... I want to give this a go. Are these powders ok? seem to be good value next to the tablets/capsules.  thanks. 


http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/msm-met...l-methane.html

http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/vitamin_c

----------


## gutted

> hi gutted.... I want to give this a go. Are these powders ok? seem to be good value next to the tablets/capsules.  thanks. 
> 
> 
> http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/msm-met...l-methane.html
> 
> http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/vitamin_c


 should be fine mate.

----------


## Kiwi

> should be fine mate.


 Hey. Where is the best place to buy trx2? I'm going to give this a shot  :Smile:

----------


## bananana

> Hey. Where is the best place to buy trx2? I'm going to give this a shot


 I got my from ebay, german fitness shop (I can provide details) because I'm in Europe. 500 OptiMSM tabs (1000 mg each) for just 30 euro. 

I stopped taking equol after almost 4 months, I saw some progress (far less itch) but my scalp is OILY, if msm/vitc can stop this - I'll hang on it. 

*I'm taking 2000 mg msm for start and a multivitamin (I'm thinking on switching to My Favorite Multiple Energizer) + C vitamin (500-1000 mg daily) - B complex + fish oil.*

I'll up the MSM gradually to around 6000 mg, even thou you take 9000 which seems Hulk-high.  :Smile: 

*I've dropped the soy* and toco sorb (but I might return to toco sorb as it wont intervene with MSM - I think).

What do you say on my regime gutted? Everything ok?

----------


## gutted

> Hey. Where is the best place to buy trx2? I'm going to give this a shot


 as far as i know the only place to buy trx2 is through thier website.

----------


## gutted

> I got my from ebay, german fitness shop (I can provide details) because I'm in Europe. 500 OptiMSM tabs (1000 mg each) for just 30 euro. 
> 
> I stopped taking equol after almost 4 months, I saw some progress (far less itch) but my scalp is OILY, if msm/vitc can stop this - I'll hang on it. 
> 
> *I'm taking 2000 mg msm for start and a multivitamin (I'm thinking on switching to My Favorite Multiple Energizer) + C vitamin (500-1000 mg daily) - B complex + fish oil.*
> 
> I'll up the MSM gradually to around 6000 mg, even thou you take 9000 which seems Hulk-high. 
> 
> *I've dropped the soy* and toco sorb (but I might return to toco sorb as it wont intervene with MSM - I think).
> ...


 looks good, i would consider dropping the fish oil and toco sorb but thats up to you.

----------


## bananana

> looks good, i would consider dropping the fish oil and toco sorb but thats up to you.


 Ok, I dropped the toco sorb, but what do you think about fish oil (180 mg EPH and 120 mg DHA)?
It might intervene with the effects of msm?

thanks

----------


## gutted

> Ok, I dropped the toco sorb, but what do you think about fish oil (180 mg EPH and 120 mg DHA)?
> It might intervene with the effects of msm?
> 
> thanks


 yes theres a possibility.

----------


## dex89

> Ok, I dropped the toco sorb, but what do you think about fish oil (180 mg EPH and 120 mg DHA)?
> It might intervene with the effects of msm?
> 
> thanks


 Why would you drop tocosorb? 

How long have you been using it?

----------


## bananana

> Why would you drop tocosorb? 
> 
> How long have you been using it?


 Well, I've been using it for 4 months, and saw no reduce in itch or oily scalp. I saw some change with taking equol (far less itch), but gutted suggest fish oil and/or toco sorb might intervene with MSM so I'll quit with toco sorb (and the reason I haven't seen much change with it).

----------


## dex89

> Well, I've been using it for 4 months, and saw no reduce in itch or oily scalp. I saw some change with taking equol (far less itch), but gutted suggest fish oil and/or toco sorb might intervene with MSM so I'll quit with toco sorb (and the reason I haven't seen much change with it).


 I wouldn't give it up, give it 2-4 more months, people don't see results until the 6 month mark.

----------


## bananana

> I wouldn't give it up, give it 2-4 more months, people don't see results until the 6 month mark.


 I'll see. I can do it, it aint expensive.

----------


## MrBlonde

> I got my from ebay, german fitness shop (I can provide details) because I'm in Europe. 500 OptiMSM tabs (1000 mg each) for just 30 euro.


 Can you provide a link to this because it sounds like such great value and a picture of the ingredients too so we can compare against the other types of opti msm.

I am naturally suspicious of great value  :Wink:

----------


## bananana

> Can you provide a link to this because it sounds like such great value and a picture of the ingredients too so we can compare against the other types of opti msm.
> 
> I am naturally suspicious of great value


 Hi,

this is the link

Ps, do you guys take it with, before or after a meal?
With plenty of water right?

----------


## MrBlonde

Here is a translation of the ingredients and product details




> MSM (methylsulfonylmethane) is a natural form of organic sulfur found in all living organisms.
> 
> Organically bound sulfur is an important component of many enzymes, the cartilage and many other important compounds and structures in the body.
> 
> part:
> - The connective tissue,
> - The red blood cells,
> - Of muscles,
> - Skin, hair and nails
> ...


 
It looks ok compared to Gutted's reccommended Doctors best MSM.  The only extra I see is Silica in the Fat2fit brand

----------


## gutted

> Here is a translation of the ingredients and product details
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks ok compared to Gutted's reccommended Doctors best MSM.  The only extra I see is Silica in the Fat2fit brand


 this is ok.

----------


## gutted

> Hi,
> 
> this is the link
> 
> Ps, do you guys take it with, before or after a meal?
> With plenty of water right?


 i take about 2/3 hours after a meal, with lots of water.

----------


## bananana

> this is ok.


 Yup, I'm very satisfied with their price + they have 100&#37; positive feedback on ebay.

Thanks for the instructions gutted.

----------


## MrBlonde

> this is ok.


 
Just to be clear,  :Big Grin:  that pic is from the link of Dr. Best Opti MSM you posted.  I couldn't find a pic of the Fta2 fit brand so I am going purely on the ebay advert which states

Ingredients per 1 tablet:

1000mg Methylsulfonymethan / OptiMSM, microcrystalline cellulose, magnesium stearate, *silica*, 


Silica being the only extra, which is the paper packet used as a desiccant to control local humidity they sometimes put in these big packages.  Other than that they are identical and great value.

----------


## gutted

> Just to be clear,  that pic is from the link of Dr. Best Opti MSM you posted.  I couldn't find a pic of the Fta2 fit brand so I am going purely on the ebay advert which states
> 
> Ingredients per 1 tablet:
> 
> 1000mg Methylsulfonymethan / OptiMSM, microcrystalline cellulose, magnesium stearate, *silica*, 
> 
> 
> Silica being the only extra, which is the paper packet used as a desiccant to control local humidity they sometimes put in these big packages.  Other than that they are identical and great value.


 yeh, will pose no problem.

----------


## MrBlonde

I just ordered mine.

Curiously, what would be the difference between taking Opti MSM and MSM?

How much would it hinder results?

----------


## gutted

> I just ordered mine.
> 
> Curiously, what would be the difference between taking Opti MSM and MSM?
> 
> How much would it hinder results?


 shouldnt really hinder results as much as androgen inhibition therpay does, but opti msm is a more pure form, hence your getting more value for your buck as well as consistent levels of msm.

----------


## ammin

Hi everyone.

I am seeing results. I have been on the treatment for around a 20-25 days.


 Lost of terminal hair growth on temples and at the parts , healthier feeling scalp, minimization of shedding. Stabilization of hair loss in general.

However my results are biased. I was already on Laser comb/nizoral for around 3 months and Viviscal for a month when I started. I was taking these in conjunction with Hairomega 3 in 1. I have stopped the hairomegas since commencing the MSM/Vit C combo on gutted's advice.

----------


## ammin

BTW Gutted I ordered TRX 2 - 3 month supply. I will experiment with it for three months and if the results dont meet my expectations revert to using the laser comb.

Thoughts?

----------


## gutted

> Hi everyone.
> 
> I am seeing results. I have been on the treatment for around a 20-25 days.
> 
> 
>  Lost of terminal hair growth on temples and at the parts , healthier feeling scalp, minimization of shedding. Stabilization of hair loss in general.
> 
> However my results are biased. I was already on Laser comb/nizoral for around 3 months and Viviscal for a month when I started. I was taking these in conjunction with Hairomega 3 in 1. I have stopped the hairomegas since commencing the MSM/Vit C combo on gutted's advice.


 i probably wouldnt class this as regrowth. they are most likley hairs grown from previous sheds from the hairomega you were taking. But i guess only you know your hair.

----------


## gutted

> BTW Gutted I ordered TRX 2 - 3 month supply. I will experiment with it for three months and if the results dont meet my expectations revert to using the laser comb.
> 
> Thoughts?


 trx2 takes time to kick in, min 6 months. Its pretty much pointless taking for 3 months.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Hey gutted, long time no talk. 

So just to be clear, from the combo msm/vitc/trx2, u feel that you have seen true regrowth? Does this include the temples?


Btw, for everyone else, I have been on trx2 for some time now and its at least maintaining what I have for sure...

----------


## TheBadger

Been following this thread for a while with some interest for a while seen as I've pretty much ruled fin out and am not sure minox is agreeing with me, but one thing keeps bugging me.

Is there any evidence of the long term safety of MSM, especially in the kinds of doses recommended here? Haven't been able to find any anywhere. On the last page someone posted a MSM label saying 1-2 1.5g tablets a day, and earlier on in the thread someone suggested Holland and Barrett sell it, and their product pages seem to say the same thing thing - 1 to 4 750mg tablets a day with a note not to exceed this. I know it's just treated as a supplement and therefore seen as safer than traditional medications, but it's still possible to have too much of those too (Iron is the first one to mind) especially if you have to stay on the stuff indefinitely. What made you pick a figure like 9 grams to begin with?

Thanks.

----------


## gutted

> Hey gutted, long time no talk. 
> 
> So just to be clear, from the combo msm/vitc/trx2, u feel that you have seen true regrowth? Does this include the temples?
> 
> 
> Btw, for everyone else, I have been on trx2 for some time now and its at least maintaining what I have for sure...


 Yes that is what i feel, real regrowth. But unfortunatley no temple regrowth. The diffuseness throught the rest of the areas slowly began to fill in, in a few more months, i will give an update. Im pretty confident it will only get more desnser. 
The regrowth potential of this combo is blocked by androgen inhibition therapy though and you will continue to shed hairs (not go bald).

----------


## gutted

> Been following this thread for a while with some interest for a while seen as I've pretty much ruled fin out and am not sure minox is agreeing with me, but one thing keeps bugging me.
> 
> Is there any evidence of the long term safety of MSM, especially in the kinds of doses recommended here? Haven't been able to find any anywhere. On the last page someone posted a MSM label saying 1-2 1.5g tablets a day, and earlier on in the thread someone suggested Holland and Barrett sell it, and their product pages seem to say the same thing thing - 1 to 4 750mg tablets a day with a note not to exceed this. I know it's just treated as a supplement and therefore seen as safer than traditional medications, but it's still possible to have too much of those too (Iron is the first one to mind) especially if you have to stay on the stuff indefinitely. What made you pick a figure like 9 grams to begin with?
> 
> Thanks.


 msm is pretty much harmless in high quantities.
You can take anything between 3 to 9 (even 12 grams) for hair loss. You can start off on a low dose 3 grams per day, work your way up to 9grams stay there for 1 or 2 months and then lower down to a maintenance dose of 3 or 6 grams per day and stay there. 6 is a safer bet.

for your refernce -> http://www.msmguide.com/facts/faq/#eleven

----------


## sizzlinghairs

so no action at all on the temples?? uhg  :Frown:  not even slight growth when inspected closeley? How much loss on your hairline/temples do you have?

----------


## gutted

> so no action at all on the temples?? uhg  not even slight growth when inspected closeley? How much loss on your hairline/temples do you have?


 no  :Frown:  im a norwood 2.

I did notice signs of frontal/centre hairline regrowth a few months back before i added a few other supplements to my regime which caused me to shed in this region. Im confident in 6 months i can give you a more solid update on this.

The crown and mid section is doing good, i think i have about 60% of the original density here since starting.

----------


## ammin

> The crown and mid section is doing good, i think i have about 60% of the original density here since starting.


 I don't understand. I thought once you go on the MSM/Vit C combo. Even if you dont add TRX 2 you will maintain your original density. Are you saying you have lost 40% density since starting the above regimen?

----------


## gutted

> I don't understand. I thought once you go on the MSM/Vit C combo. Even if you dont add TRX 2 you will maintain your original density. Are you saying you have lost 40% density since starting the above regimen?


 
i meant regrowth from trx2 since starting it, i have gained back 60% of density in the crown/mid section which was lost to mpb.

i refer to 100% density as density pre MPB(the density you have before you go bald) not baseline density since starting treatment.

----------


## ammin

Gutted is it ok for me to take Creatine. I believe it doesnt cause hair loss but would like to hear your thoughts.

I take 2 grams a day 4 days a week.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted is it ok for me to take Creatine. I believe it doesnt cause hair loss but would like to hear your thoughts.
> 
> I take 2 grams a day 4 days a week.


 wouldnt reccomend it -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313

----------


## Cob984

gutted mate, 
i was just going through the trx2 website and I see no mention of MSM, on the contrary i found posts recommending the use of nizoral, saw palmetto and nettle

anyway, i am on week 4 on msm/vitC, and week 1 of trx2,
I dropped my saw palmetto intake to 150 mg a day and still using revivogen topically. The reduction in saw palmetto dosage has led to my hair taking a beating, its thinning like crazy and i am fretting on whether to get back to 320mg but so far am holding firm,
this better improve or i am going to weep

----------


## gutted

> gutted mate, 
> i was just going through the trx2 website and I see no mention of MSM, on the contrary i found posts recommending the use of nizoral, saw palmetto and nettle
> 
> anyway, i am on week 4 on msm/vitC, and week 1 of trx2,
> I dropped my saw palmetto intake to 150 mg a day and still using revivogen topically. The reduction in saw palmetto dosage has led to my hair taking a beating, its thinning like crazy and i am fretting on whether to get back to 320mg but so far am holding firm,
> this better improve or i am going to weep


 i will look for it, i think i recollect it being posted on one of the blog posts. I will post the link if i find it, in this thread.

Like i said many times, androgen inhibition therapy is pointless in this regime. If your going to follow it with androgen inhibition therapy, do so at your own risk, it only works without any androgen inhibition therapy of any kind, topical or internal. 

If you do decide to quit SP, you will have to wait 6 weeks to 3 months when your hormone levels and Androgen receptors "reset" before you notice any improvement. Ive been through this process with SP and can confirm this occurs. Stay on the regime (after quittting sp) and you will regain "shedded" hair in 3 to 6 months.

----------


## Cob984

i am trying not to quit sp cold turkey, been on it for almost a year now, think ill stay with the topical for the near future

it would be easier for me to make a decision if my hair wasnt worsening on a weekly basis but it is and i am scared

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Cob, try picking up some xtra strength scalpicin with 1% Hydrocortisone in it. 

Hydrocort has been shown to actually spur regrowth in some and greatly helps with inflammation, which is a main source of shedding

----------


## gutted

> it would be easier for me to make a decision if my *hair wasnt worsening on a weekly basis* but it is and i am scared


 yes it may help if you ween off it rather than quit cold turkey.

There is only one reason why hair loss would "appear" to worsen - and i think i wrote why in this thread in the first posts.

To me it looks like saw palmetto *may* have helped you for a short period of time and lead you to believe it stopped/slowed your hair loss...and you stuck with it, but this *never* lasts. take it from me. Androgen inhibition is the very wrong way of treating mpb.

You are better off dropping it, but thats a decision for you to make.

----------


## Cob984

yea i will hopefully get the courage to do it seenm

in any case you did mention that even with dht inhibitors, i might not see noticeable results with the trx2 combo but thats about it right, it wont worsen?

also what do u make of the trx2 website itself endorsing niz, sp, etc?

----------


## gutted

> yea i will hopefully get the courage to do it seenm
> 
> in any case you did mention that even with dht inhibitors, i might not see noticeable results with the trx2 combo but thats about it right, *it wont worsen*?
> 
> also what do u make of the trx2 website itself endorsing niz, sp, etc?


 
if you are shedding, you will still shed, what the combo does (if you are taking with dht inihibitors) is keep hairs from *going into dormancy*.
It only stops shedding, (in a timeley manner) if you take it without dht inihibtors, its pretty complex to understand why taking dht inhibitors is pointless, its only good in the short term.

they do endorse niz, but havnet seen them endorse sp.

They also say using trx2 with finerstride is fine, although in theory this may work out for some, from (my) experience this is pretty much pointless. 

Most of the stuff in this thread is based on my actual experience and research and can be replicated by most people *if* followed as directed.

----------


## Cob984

http://www.trx2.com/community/naturo...for-hair-loss/
here

also they categorically warn users against fin though this has to do with its safety profile rather than dht inhibition

i am just trying to reach a stage lets say a month into use of trx2 when i will attempt to drop the oral sp for good,,
right now i just got a buzz hair cut and i have realized how insanely thin my hair has become with my hairline taken a real beating, so i will try to do the good old combover when its long enough and then maybe get the courage to do away with oral sp

----------


## gutted

> http://www.trx2.com/community/naturo...for-hair-loss/
> here
> 
> also they categorically warn users against fin though this has to do with its safety profile rather than dht inhibition
> 
> i am just trying to reach a stage lets say a month into use of trx2 when i will attempt to drop the oral sp for good,,
> right now i just got a buzz hair cut and i have realized how insanely thin my hair has become with my hairline taken a real beating, so i will try to do the good old combover when its long enough and then maybe get the courage to do away with oral sp


 
i wouldnt take too much of what they write in thier blogs seriously, blogs are way of gaining rank in the search engines. As you may be aware sp is a common search term used by hair loss users hence the saw pallmetto article.

Its not them that is warning you of dht inhibition with this combo, its me! lol

If you want to use sp, thats up to you, but the beneficial/visible results may not apply to you. - you will only prevent hairs from going dormant. trx2/msm/vit c wont be able to stop you from shedding.

if you are already thinking of dropping sp one month into trx2, you may as well drop it as soon as possible, it means more time for eveything to resynchronise.

----------


## gutted

ive tried looking for the page they reccomend taking MSM and i can no longer find it. Im confident i saw it on thier site somehwere. I think in thier faq page, its no longer there.

----------


## gutted

found something here->

http://www.trx2.com/community/7-simp...air-care-tips/

although i remember a question being answered by them and they specifically recommending the msm.

----------


## Cob984

anyone hear experiencing good things with this combo yet?
i am freaking out, just dropped the dht blockers completely and my hair is failing bad,
just need some reassurance here im not completely screwing myself

----------


## ammin

Consider the possibility that you might be overreacting

I have seen some temple growth. Perhaps its less growth and more vellus hairs turning terminal. Shedding has reduced significantly and scalp seems healthier.

However I dont know what I owe my limited success too

The viviscal tablets I have been using for 45 days

or 


The laser comb I was exposing myself to and Hairomega tablets I had been ingesting (have stopped since starting the MSM/vit C combo) for three months

----------


## Jcm800

I can say that since I've stopped using nizoral I haven't had any inflamed bumps on my scalp, other than that nothing noticeable happening here either.

----------


## Cob984

> I can say that since I've stopped using nizoral I haven't had any inflamed bumps on my scalp, other than that nothing noticeable happening here either.


 how long have you been on the combo man?

----------


## Jcm800

Around 8 months standalone trx2. And 2 months with added MSM/VitC, early days yet really but not expecting miracles tbh.

----------


## Cob984

wow 8 months? if this doesnt work in 8 months ill be bald and regretting avoiding fin
just hope for the best i guess

are you atleast maintaining?

----------


## Jcm800

I'm going to roll with this combo for one year minimum, benefits take time. Tho at present no I'm not maintaining, am losing ground but that could be down to a minoxidil shed.

----------


## new bubble

> wow 8 months? if this doesnt work in 8 months ill be bald and regretting avoiding fin
> just hope for the best i guess
> 
> are you atleast maintaining?


 I was shedding like crazy around june/july time (20-50 hairs p/day), with increased itch and greasy hair. I went on just the MSM/VITC combo WITHOUT trx2 and have improved. Normal shed about 5-10 hairs per day and a healthier scalp and no itch. Soon I will add the TRX2 to see if I can gain some of the loss back or at least maintain whats left. Bottom line it worked for me just stopping the loss and better scalp feel

----------


## Cob984

i really have no clue wtf an itch is i have never had one
my shed is still pretty bad but more than shed and hair loss its the hair thinning, its thinning at a remarkable rate thats the concern for me

----------


## gutted

> anyone hear experiencing good things with this combo yet?
> i am freaking out, just dropped the dht blockers completely and my hair is failing bad,
> just need some reassurance here im not completely screwing myself


 dude you need to read the thread over again and understand it.

you will experience a *shed* (this is NOT hair *loss*), but dont be alarmed they will grow back in another 3/6 months down the line. The shed is a result of your highly upregulated AR's and the increase in dht from dropping SP <- this is not a very good scenario hence your shed.
The problem is, it takes time for the AR's to detect your dht normals are going back to normal, approx 3 weeks to 1 to 2 months.  Just stay on the combo consistently and you should see a return of all hairs that have been shed.

i have to stress, with the combo, you need to be in it for the long haul.

Also take pictures for your own reference.

----------


## new bubble

> i really have no clue wtf an itch is i have never had one
> my shed is still pretty bad but more than shed and hair loss its the hair thinning, its thinning at a remarkable rate thats the concern for me


 ITCH = scratchy scalp = inflamation

----------


## Cob984

ah ok, i have never had an itchy scalp

yes gutted i understand the rationale here, but i am really impatient and with sp i got results in 2 weeks initially i went from thinning hair to a goddam mop, though it didnt last more than 3 months,

All i am trying to do here is check who else has had the success you did on this combo to feel better about sticking with it

----------


## gutted

> ah ok, i have never had an itchy scalp
> 
> yes gutted i understand the rationale here, but i am *really impatient* and with sp i got results in 2 weeks initially i went from thinning hair to a goddam mop, though it didnt last more than 3 months,
> 
> All i am trying to do here is check who else has had the success you did on this combo to feel better about sticking with it


 you and me both mate! But with hairloss, you *NEED* to be patient. But how the results materialise are given in the thread, some will notice reduction in oil secretion within 3 weeks, if followed as directed.

I also experienced dramatic results with sp when i first used it (within 3 weeks!), it stopped my hairloss, faster hair growth and regrowth too, but this was shortlived. *It doesnt last*. Its the same with propecia or any sort of androgen inhibition therapy.

i dont think anyones been using it for enough time apart from a few people, so opinions are lacking.

----------


## Cob984

dunno about sp you maybe right on that but plenty of people on propecia are maintaining great and im talking years, you only need to look as far as other forums or other subsections of this forum itself to see that

the only reason im not on it is i know i will get the sides, how do i know this? i am also sensitive to sp so there is no logical way the same thing with probably a greater intensity wont happen on fin

----------


## gutted

> dunno about sp you maybe right on that but plenty of people on propecia are *maintaining great* and im talking years, you only need to look as far as other forums or other subsections of this forum itself to see that
> 
> the only reason im not on it is i know i will get the sides, how do i know this? i am also sensitive to sp so there is no logical way the same thing with probably a greater intensity wont happen on fin


 are they really maintaining or just slowing down mpb? I think it slows down the process, not stop the process, you also need to look at what else they are using - minox etc, this should imply to you that they arent really maintaining at all and felt the need to add some more "power" to thier regime.

if something as simple as SP, gave you regrowth in a matter of 3 weeks, you could have had double (even triple) the regrowth results had you taken propecia and not sp. <- this is the "regrowth period" for everyone on androgen inhibitors to achieve regrowth, which is shortlived.

But you also stated, after a while on sp (3 months?) your hair loss picked up again. - double or even triple that to 6/9 months, even 2 years on propeica -> your hair loss would have picked up again with propecia by this time. hence why i say androgen inhibition therapy is only useful in the short term for some people and others can get away with "maintaining" for 5+ years.

I would say the people who manage to maintain on propecia are in the minority

----------


## Cob984

any harm in soy+green tea? i drink about a glass of soymilk and 3-5 of green tea a day, should be ok right though apparently it reduces dht

----------


## gutted

> any harm in soy+green tea? i drink about a glass of soymilk and 3-5 of green tea a day, should be ok right though apparently it reduces dht


 dunno mate, it probably wont hurt.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

so gutted, I finally read through your first post on this thread and I didnt notice what you thought about Trx2 alone not being able to maintain your hair..


You dont think Trx2 as a standalone was doing it for you? Didnt you see shedding only after you added some stuff but then it stabilized?

----------


## gutted

> so gutted, I finally read through your first post on this thread and I didnt notice what you thought about Trx2 alone not being able to maintain your hair..
> 
> 
> You dont think Trx2 as a standalone was doing it for you? Didnt you see shedding only after you added some stuff but then it stabilized?


 yes thats right, i was on msm on and off for other reasons, when i started trx2. I noticed when i was off it, itching would worsen when i would drop the msm hence why i think trx2 works with msm, and msm works with vitc.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Thanks gutted.

One more thing. I am on my 4th day of MSM, taking around 6-9 grams everyday. My frontal hairline seems to feel and look a bit more thin.. This could also be the hairs changing texture to a softer feel.

Anyways, have you ever heard of MSM causing hairloss? Like an adverse reaction? I googled it and read a couple accounts of people actually losing hair while on MSM. I dont want to rush to conclusions but am naturally concerned.. I am also taking 1 gram of time released vit-c..

----------


## Cob984

wait ? this is exactly what has happened to me, i thought this was shedding but now not so sure, my front hairline has thinned dramatically directly coinciding with msm use about a month ago

----------


## gutted

> Thanks gutted.
> 
> One more thing. I am on my 4th day of MSM, taking around 6-9 grams everyday. My frontal hairline seems to feel and look a bit more thin.. This could also be the hairs changing texture to a softer feel.
> 
> Anyways, have you ever heard of MSM causing hairloss? Like an adverse reaction? I googled it and read a couple accounts of people actually losing hair while on MSM. I dont want to rush to conclusions but am naturally concerned.. I am also taking 1 gram of time released vit-c..


 no i havent heard of or noticed this effect.
It could be mpb progression or the other stuff you are using, fin etc

As your probably aware, i believe androgen inhibition, not only does it not *stop (it delays)* hairloss for a majority of people but actually fuels mpb over time (this time varies amongst individuals), although its not scientific fact that this is the case, but a hair count drop has been witnessed in fin studies. 

This is why i say, personally, this regime works best without any sort of androgen inhibition, be it fin or keto. (Keto can gain systemic access and cause similar sides as fin) or any green tea/soy combo that affects androgen levels in any way.

My point in reiterating this is that, should you be using this combo along with fin etc and hoping for visible regrowth/maintenance then its a wasted effort.

----------


## gutted

> wait ? this is exactly what has happened to me, i thought this was shedding but now not so sure, my front hairline has thinned dramatically directly coinciding with msm use about a month ago


 guys, THIS example here, is exactly what i mean by blurred results/testimonials and keeping things standardised when trialling, else, its pretty pointless in knowing what is working and what is not. I see the same scenario through out hair loss forums.

Cob984 has recentley dropped saw palmetto, and has already stated he was losing hair whilst still on it. This is the reason why his hairlines is taking a hit.

Sizzling is on fin and other stuff, which imo, without a doubt in my mind is affecting his results, and now 1 + 1 = 3!

if your going to trial this, keep things standardised.

----------


## bananana

gutted, I can vouch positively - I'm using msm combo for over 10 days now, and I'm seeing A LOT less oil on my scalp - there is a very simple and effective test for that - scooping with a nail.  :Smile: 

Anyways, the itch is still here, I guess I need to wait more.

HOWEVER, I found this "experiment" I think you should read, and the most interesting of all to me as this comment: 

"*Body can only absorb 1000mg of msm each 4 or 5 hours. So if you want to see results, two doses of 4000mg aren't good!
of those 4000mg yo have absorbed only 1000mg, so not a big study...*"

Is that comment right? What do you think gutted? What is the optimal way of taking msm (in light of these new information)

Thank you

----------


## gutted

> gutted, I can vouch positively - I'm using msm combo for over 10 days now, and I'm seeing A LOT less oil on my scalp - there is a very simple and effective test for that - scooping with a nail. 
> 
> Anyways, the itch is still here, I guess I need to wait more.
> 
> HOWEVER, I found this "experiment" I think you should read, and the most interesting of all to me as this comment: 
> 
> "*Body can only absorb 1000mg of msm each 4 or 5 hours. So if you want to see results, two doses of 4000mg aren't good!
> of those 4000mg yo have absorbed only 1000mg, so not a big study...*"
> 
> ...


 Im not sure, the person does not state what msm, he took, whethere it was optimsm or not.

The vit c is the key. There is synergy between the two. Judging from my observations,you can take all at once or spaced through out the day so long as you take it together with vitamin c. For me i take them all together and have not noticed a drop in efficacy although i see no reason why you cant take them spaced through out the day.

I cant believe he did not *notice* anything. Note - i highlighted the word notice, its not something that everyone can do accuratley. It probably did affect him but he wasnt aware that it did.

As for you itch, as soon as the oil output is reduced, you should see a reduction in itch, so long as you are not taking any androgen inhibitors. They *work against* what you are trying to achieve.

Also bear in mind, everyone has a bit of itch here and there, but the mpb itch is a very deep itch, you need to be able to differntiate between the two.

----------


## bananana

> As for you itch, as soon as the oil output is reduced, you should see a reduction in itch, so long as you are not taking any androgen inhibitors. They *work against* what you are trying to achieve.
> 
> Also bear in mind, everyone has a bit of itch here and there, but the mpb itch is a very deep itch, you need to be able to differntiate between the two.


 
Ok, thanks. It's probably the synergy with vitamin C they overlooked.
About my itch... there is less of it, and it's not strong, meaning I don't have to scratch it right away, it's not deep, so I guess it's working.

Finding less "oil" on my scalp is important to me, meaning - something is working.  :Smile: 

Thanks, I'll keep you posted.

----------


## gutted

> Ok, thanks. It's probably the synergy with vitamin C they overlooked.
> About my itch... there is less of it, and it's not strong, meaning I don't have to scratch it right away, it's not deep, so I guess it's working.
> 
> Finding less "oil" on my scalp is important to me, meaning - something is working. 
> 
> Thanks, I'll keep you posted.


 it could be, although i would give it a solid 2/3 months on it before making any judgement on the itch.

watch your nails/hair grow faster too, this should imply the msm is being correctly absorbed.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> it could be, although i would give it a solid 2/3 months on it before making any judgement on the itch.
> 
> watch your nails/hair grow faster too, this should imply the msm is being correctly absorbed.


 Gutted - how do you know it is not the trx 2 that is helping you?

Is vit c and msm alone proven to be an effective treatment

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> i take in the evenings ->
> 
> trx2 capsules
> few hours later.
> MSM - 9 grams together *WITH* 4 grams vit c capsules.


 How do you get 9 grams of MSM, isnt that like 6 capsules?

----------


## gutted

> Gutted - how do you know it is not the trx 2 that is helping you?
> 
> Is vit c and msm alone proven to be an effective treatment


 i think i answered that question earlier in the thread.

When i was on a consistent regime of trx2, i just so happened to use msm and vit c on and off for other reasons around the same time. When i would drop the msm/vitc, i noticed my scalp would start itching and get oily whilst still on the trx2 regime. although trx2 does help bring back hairs, it doesnt stop the process. Hence why i think msm/vitc alone is enough to stop and with trx2 to regrow.

no msm/vitc is not a proven treatment. Im just documenting an anecdotal experience. Although the studies do seem to indicate it can help hair in one way or another, but nothing proven in a clinical setting.

It doesnt take long to notice if it will help you like with fin/minox - the results timeline is availabe in the first few pages. It can help reduce oil secretion within 3/6 weeks providing your not on or have come off any other hormone altering drug.

----------


## gutted

> How do you get 9 grams of MSM, isnt that like 6 capsules?


 yeah 6 x 1500mg.

6 grams may be enough.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

@ Gutted, not using fin so that is not a possibility. It might just be the MSM making my hair more soft which I dont have a problem with. 

I will continue to take/evaluate.

Another question. I take only 1 g of vit c and 6 g of MSM. Is this enough you think? 1 day I did get in 9 but its a lot of pills to take.. (you said you take 9 all at once right?)

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> @ Gutted, not using fin so that is not a possibility. It might just be the MSM making my hair more soft which I dont have a problem with. 
> 
> I will continue to take/evaluate.
> 
> Another question. I take only 1 g of vit c and 6 g of MSM. Is this enough you think? 1 day I did get in 9 but its a lot of pills to take.. (you said you take 9 all at once right?)


 Ok ordered it.

----------


## gutted

> @ Gutted, not using fin so that is not a possibility. It might just be the MSM making my hair more soft which I dont have a problem with. 
> 
> I will continue to take/evaluate.
> 
> Another question. I take only 1 g of vit c and 6 g of MSM. Is this enough you think? 1 day I did get in 9 but its a lot of pills to take.. (you said you take 9 all at once right?)


 im sure i recollect you saying you were on fin or dut in the trx2 thread sizzling?

what is your regime?

yeh 6 grams should be enough with 1 gram vit c. Yeh i take 9 grams MSM/1 to 4 grams vit c.

----------


## dex89

> im sure i recollect you saying you were on fin or dut in the trx2 thread sizzling?
> 
> what is your regime?
> 
> yeh 6 grams should be enough with 1 gram vit c. Yeh i take 9 grams MSM/1 to 4 grams vit c.


 9 grams of MSM is safe to use?

----------


## gutted

> 9 grams of MSM is safe to use?


 yeah safe as water apparently.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Just trx2 with topical hydrocortisone and miconazole occasionally

----------


## gutted

> Just trx2 with topical hydrocortisone and *miconazole* occasionally


 i think thats your problem. I also used this if you remember i posted in the trx2 thread, and also noticed sides with this, although i was on sp too. But it wont surprise me, since it is related to keto.

----------


## Jcm800

Best thing I've done lately is dropping keto, haven't had any inflamed bumps on my crown since doing so.

----------


## gutted

> Best thing I've done lately is dropping keto, haven't had any inflamed bumps on my crown since doing so.


 this or the next month is when your regime really starts. give it 3/6 months and update.

----------


## Jcm800

> this or the next month is when your regime really starts. give it 3/6 months and update.


 I'm hoping mate. Might be a crazy idea but thinking of using minox once a day on my crown, it's thinning, becoming noticeable.  

Do you think it'd hinder this regime or have a better chance of working?  Applying forever doesn't phase me but having a Friar Tuck crown does..

----------


## Cob984

I pray you are right gutted, i am having to resort to a combover now for the first time in my life to cover my thinning, I am toast if this fails

Anyway im using revivogen and drinking just 1 glass of soymilk+ 100 mg green tea extract
and once a week niz

No more oral dht inhibitors
Do you think i can take 4 trx2s a day? Im scared as hell and dont care about cost, will this do any harm? maybe take 4 for a month then back down to 3?

----------


## gutted

> I'm hoping mate. Might be a crazy idea but thinking of using minox once a day on my crown, it's thinning, becoming noticeable.  
> 
> Do you think it'd hinder this regime or have a better chance of working?  Applying forever doesn't phase me but having a Friar Tuck crown does..


 dude trust me, all the hairs you are seeing "*shed*" (not "*lose*") would have shed anyway. They will return. If you add minox, it'll only make you go through *another* shed for another couple of months. < - this ends up becoming a *cycle* of shedding that makes mpb much worser than it should be!
i bet you half of the people on here are mistakeningly attributing "shedding" of hairs to mpb progression!

stick with it for another 3/6 months from now, with nothing else used apart from what you are on now, if you see nothing, then you still have minox as an option.

----------


## gutted

> I pray you are right gutted, i am having to resort to a combover now for the first time in my life to cover my thinning, I am toast if this fails
> 
> Anyway im using revivogen and drinking just 1 glass of soymilk+ 100 mg green tea extract
> and once a week niz
> 
> No more oral dht inhibitors
> Do you think i can take 4 trx2s a day? Im scared as hell and dont care about cost, will this do any harm? maybe take 4 for a month then back down to 3?


 i think your going to be wasting time on this regime mate. You are better off supressing dht through sp or fin since this is the avenue you want to go through. Ive reiterated this fact many times, dont expect visible/cosmetic results, which is what you want. I have tried sp/androgen inhibition along with the combo, for 6 months, it did not work to combat the sheds, although it kept the itching/oiliness *slightley* under control. The process that occurs from doing this is too potent for this combo to address and you will continue to shed like shit! trust me on this.

drop the niz - use a tgel shampoo.
drop soy +green tea extract.

taking 4 caps trx2 wont hurt and 9 grams msm/1 grams vit c - then lower your msm intake if you want to,to 6 grams msm after a few months.

If you still want to use the niz/soy +green tea extract, then please state that you are using this in your posts as this can affect results.

----------


## Cob984

dude i think you are getting a bit carried away? im using niz 1ce a week? thats all
and ok ill drop the green tea extract but i naturally enjoy green tea and soy so i am going to continue with that in normal quantities which is probably too little to do anything
its not like im inhaling equol capsules

----------


## gutted

> dude i think you are getting a bit carried away? im using niz 1ce a week? thats all
> and ok ill drop the green tea extract but i naturally enjoy green tea and soy so i am going to continue with that in normal quantities which is probably too little to do anything
> its not like im inhaling equol capsules


 lool, ok kool, let us know how you get on, remember it takes about 3/6 months to notice something.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

What is wrong with an oily scalp?

----------


## gutted

> What is wrong with an oily scalp?


 it implies dht/androgens are wreaking havoc on your sebaceous glands <- i find that this is a very reliable indicator that mpb is still working in the background.

the backs and the sides are not as oily as much as the top is in mpb scalps nor do they have as much dandruff as the top. see for yourself.

----------


## Jcm800

Must admit my scalp has improved since adopting this regime, just hope hairs will reappear on the sparse areas in due course :-)

----------


## ovoxo

> dude trust me, all the hairs you are seeing "*shed*" (not "*lose*") would have shed anyway. They will return. If you add minox, it'll only make you go through *another* shed for another couple of months. < - this ends up becoming a *cycle* of shedding that makes mpb much worser than it should be!
> i bet you half of the people on here are mistakeningly attributing "shedding" of hairs to mpb progression!
> 
> stick with it for another 3/6 months from now, with nothing else used apart from what you are on now, if you see nothing, then you still have minox as an option.


 i've been using minox now for about two months, didn't see any shed yet, i've been on msm and vit c for about month and a half (i guess itching has lowered but still present), so i don't know if I should drop minox or not. If it regrows some hair, then I think msm/vit c will keep it(if it really works), and then later maybe I'll drop minox. 

Any ideas?

----------


## gutted

> Must admit my scalp has improved since adopting this regime, just hope hairs will reappear on the sparse areas in due course :-)


 it will,the sheds will lessen over the next few weeks first then the hairs previously shed in the last 3 months will return in due course. Just dont get impatient and get on minox again, it will cause you to shed again.

----------


## gutted

> i've been using minox now for about two months, didn't see any shed yet, i've been on msm and vit c for about month and a half (i guess itching has lowered but still present), so i don't know if I should drop minox or not. If it regrows some hair, then I think msm/vit c will keep it(if it really works), and then later maybe I'll drop minox. 
> 
> Any ideas?


 thats odd, almost everyone notices a shed on minox.

how much msm/vit c do you take?

and the chemicals that are in minox can give you a "normal itching here and there" but not the "mpb itch"

If you drop the minox, the msm/vitc your on may or may not keep it, this is something that i suspect can happen but nothing concrete and would like to find out.

----------


## ovoxo

9g of msm, 4g vit c; 

maybe the shed will appear later or i don't know. About the itching, I experience itching not just in the mpb regions it's all over the scalp and I guess it's about year now that I'm aware of it.

----------


## gutted

> 9g of msm, 4g vit c; 
> 
> maybe the shed will appear later or i don't know. About the itching, I experience itching not just in the mpb regions it's all over the scalp and I guess it's about year now that I'm aware of it.


 even the back and sides? is your hair oily?

also what shampoo do you use?

----------


## ovoxo

yes even back and sides; I use neutrogena tgel shampoo

had my scalp checked twice for seborrhoeic dermatitis, dermatologist said that my scalp is fine, as for the oiliness you could say that it is oily, with dandruff; also I have oily forehead

----------


## gutted

> yes even back and sides; I use neutrogena tgel shampoo
> 
> had my scalp checked twice for seborrhoeic dermatitis, dermatologist said that my scalp is fine, as for the oiliness you could say that it is oily, with dandruff; also I have oily forehead


 what norwood are you and age?

also have you used any androgen inhibitors in the past/or currently using them? within the last 6 months

also have you used niz before?

----------


## ovoxo

> what norwood are you and age?
> 
> also have you used any androgen inhibitors in the past/or currently using them? within the last 6 months
> 
> also have you used niz before?


 I guess you could say norwood 2 but I suspect it's diffuse thinning (my hairline is really bad), I'm 21. Never used fin or any androgen inhibitors, I used Nizoral 2% from March to September (thought it would help with my itching, I didn't do anything at all with the itch, so I dropped it and started using tgel)

----------


## gutted

> I guess you could say norwood 2 but I suspect it's diffuse thinning (my hairline is really bad), I'm 21. Never used fin or any androgen inhibitors, I used Nizoral 2% from March to September (thought it would help with my itching, I didn't do anything at all with the itch, so I dropped it and started using tgel)


 ok stay with the msm/vit c combo. niz can aggrevate hairloss in some people, you dropped it now so wait till everything balances out (3 weeks to 3 months). You can stay with the minox since you are already on it, although its not required.

The oilyiness of minox will probably add to the oil effect on the scalp though, so you need to be able to differentiate between normal scalp oil and minox liquid oil.

how long have you been on the combo?

----------


## ovoxo

this is my seventh week, but I started with 3g msm/1g vit c; and now it's third week 9g msm/4g vit c

----------


## gutted

> this is my seventh week, but I started with 3g msm/1g vit c; and now it's third week 9g msm/4g vit c


 ok update in another 4 weeks.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> it implies dht/androgens are wreaking havoc on your sebaceous glands <- i find that this is a very reliable indicator that mpb is still working in the background.
> 
> the backs and the sides are not as oily as much as the top is in mpb scalps nor do they have as much dandruff as the top. see for yourself.


 I find that my scalp gets very oily when I masturbate or have sex.

I wonder if there is a link.

----------


## gutted

> I find that my scalp gets very oily when I masturbate or have sex.
> 
> I wonder if there is a link.


 there probably is an unproven link but noone, me including, arent going to give up sex for hair! well some of us anyway.

----------


## Kiwi

Hey Gutted. Do you think I could add this (Cetirizine) to your routine for even better results?

http://www.onlinepharmacy.co.nz/product/1/Zyrtec.html

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> the toco8 is a waste of money and really not required, this also has potentilal to affect androgen imbalance as well as nizoral (keto binds with the Androgen receptor). Although niz 1% may be ok if youve been using that consistently for the passed few months.
> The vitamin d3 shouldnt pose any problem.
> 
> As for aminexil, im not quite sure on that. If you can afford it and you believe it helps i dont see why this would interact with the combo, although ive noticed my results solely on this combo alone, and anyone wishing to replicate this i adivise this combo only.
> 
> You should give it quite some time before you notice anything also i would stop or limit the smoking *asap*.


 OK so I am a month in and have a few observations.

Firstly, I think I have recently gone through a shed (especially frontal hairline, as others in this thread seem to have reported). Remember I have never really used anything in the past for hair loss except vitamins etc, so it can't be attributed to dropping anything.

I put this down to the fact that maybe I was due a shed anyway, but it seemed a bit of a coincidence to be honest....

Also, I got a terrible itch where I lost ground on my hairline. 
Maybe my body reacted to the sudden intake of these supplements and needed to adjust, and possibly caused a shed. What do you think of that Gutted? Do you think that could be possible?

Anyway, the *good news* is that for the last week my itch has pretty much gone. I probably haven't had such a comfortable feeling on my scalp since I can remember. Which is really great.

So maybe this is the start of good things, as you predicted. I can only hope.

----------


## WAG5

Hi everyone, first post here, registered solely because of this thread. So, I am not certain if I am going bald, but in the past few months have grown increasingly paranoid as it is quite common in my family. 

After reading this thread I went out and purchased MSM/Vit C to ease my mind, and have actually noticed a huge increase in shedding since starting. I'm losing like 40 hairs every time I shower, and it's starting to freak me out a little bit. I know it's common for shedding to occur when using propecia and things like that, but does the same apply for this? I had also used Niz 1% two times a few days before dropping that after some things I had read, and trying this.

Anyway, hoping someone can offer some insight cause it's really stressing me out.

----------


## gutted

> OK so I am a month in and have a few observations.
> 
> Firstly, I think I have recently gone through a shed (especially frontal hairline, as others in this thread seem to have reported). Remember I have never really used anything in the past for hair loss except vitamins etc, so it can't be attributed to dropping anything.
> 
> I put this down to the fact that maybe I was due a shed anyway, but it seemed a bit of a coincidence to be honest....
> 
> Also, I got a terrible itch where I lost ground on my hairline. 
> Maybe my body reacted to the sudden intake of these supplements and needed to adjust, and possibly caused a shed. What do you think of that Gutted? Do you think that could be possible?
> 
> ...


 
well, if those hairs were going to shed, it would have shed anyway regardless of whether you were to take msm or not, msm speeds up the hair cycle, hence it could be possible that you noticed this process occur much faster than usual for all the hairs that were shedding (remember it would have occured anyway) but the good news is it, will return 3 months.

you should try it out for 3/6 months and keep monitoring every month. Eventually you should realise the benefits of reduced shedding (than your current shed levels) by 3/4/6 months.

----------


## gutted

> Hey Gutted. Do you think I could add this (Cetirizine) to your routine for even better results?
> 
> http://www.onlinepharmacy.co.nz/product/1/Zyrtec.html


 i really dont know, as a hunch i think the regime already addresses pgd2 imbalance through other mechinsms so ceterizine may not be neccasary, but hey you could try it, but remember you *need* to take for quite some time to notice benefits.

if your happy to take a synthetic drug like that for life then i dont see no probem.

----------


## gutted

> Hi everyone, first post here, registered solely because of this thread. So, I am not certain if I am going bald, but in the past few months have grown increasingly paranoid as it is quite common in my family. 
> 
> After reading this thread I went out and purchased MSM/Vit C to ease my mind, and have actually noticed a huge increase in shedding since starting. I'm losing like 40 hairs every time I shower, and it's starting to freak me out a little bit. I know it's common for shedding to occur when using propecia and things like that, but does the same apply for this? I had also used Niz 1&#37; two times a few days before dropping that after some things I had read, and trying this.
> 
> Anyway, hoping someone can offer some insight cause it's really stressing me out.


 short term shedding is not a good indicator that what you are using is causing this. The hairs shed now are the result of what you have been doing/using (if anything) since the last 3 and 6 months.

If you are shedding large amounts than normal, its mpb. - stay on it and update in 3/6 month intervals.

----------


## WAG5

Thanks, gutted.

Not exactly the news I was hoping for, but oh well. I've only noticed more than usual when I'm showering/styling it, so hopefully that's the pace it stays out until this kicks in. I have been stressed a lot more than normal the last month or so, so I was kind of hoping that was a big part of this, but we will see!

----------


## gutted

> Thanks, gutted.
> 
> Not exactly the news I was hoping for, but oh well. I've only noticed more than usual when I'm showering/styling it, so hopefully that's the pace it stays out until this kicks in. I have been stressed a lot more than normal the last month or so, so I was kind of hoping that was a big part of this, but we will see!


 things should start to kick in around 3/6 months.

Watch your current/baseline scalp oil levels so that you can compare later down the road.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> things should start to kick in around 3/6 months.
> 
> Watch your current/baseline scalp oil levels so that you can compare later down the road.


 Hair is getting oily, even around the sides.

----------


## gutted

> Hair is getting oily, even around the sides.


 did you drop the toco8? and niz recently?

you will experience a short term increase if you have recentley done that, you will need to wait it out till things "reset". approx 3 weeks to 2/3 months.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> did you drop the toco8? and niz recently?
> 
> you will experience a short term increase if you have recentley done that, you will need to wait it out till things "reset". approx 3 weeks to 2/3 months.


 Hair has always been like this and yes I have.

----------


## gutted

> Hair has always been like this and yes I have.


 give it 3 months and report back. if you say your hair has always been oily then you should undeniably notice a reduction of this within the next 3 weeks to 3 months.

dropping toco8 removes the minscule amount of beta sitosterol content, you should wait before things balance out again.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> give it 3 months and report back. if you say your hair has always been oily then you should undeniably notice a reduction of this within the next 3 weeks to 3 months.
> 
> dropping toco8 removes the minscule amount of beta sitosterol content, you should wait before things balance out again.


 Im not on your regime yet.

----------


## gutted

> Im not on your regime yet.


 you should have dropped the toco8 when starting the msm/vitc!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> you should have dropped the toco8 when starting the msm/vitc!


 Im on nothing right now.

----------


## gutted

> Im on nothing right now.


 get on the combo asap.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> get on the combo asap.


 Ordered Doctors best MSM 

And

time released vitamin c caps

i have read that excess vit c can cause kidney stones

http://www.news-medical.net/health/V...e-Effects.aspx

----------


## gutted

> Ordered Doctors best MSM 
> 
> And
> 
> time released vitamin c caps
> 
> i have read that excess vit c can cause kidney stones
> 
> http://www.news-medical.net/health/V...e-Effects.aspx


 you can cut down on the vit c after the results have materialised, 6 months down the line.

----------


## Jcm800

Taking all this Vit C has done nothing for my immune system - i've got a real shitty cold  :Frown:

----------


## Space

Hi, thanks for this thread.

I don't really understand why it would be necessary to drop toco-8 though. If it's because of the minimal amount of beta-sitosesterol it contains we might as well abstain from eating a bunch of other stuff. 

http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-...000000000.html

http://www.ehow.com/about_5377043_fo...tosterols.html

As you can see there's Beta-sitosterol in lots of regular food, an avocado for example, contains more then TEN TIMES as much Beta-sis as two scoops (one serving) of toco-8.

----------


## gutted

> Hi, thanks for this thread.
> 
> I don't really understand why it would be necessary to drop toco-8 though. If it's because of the minimal amount of beta-sitosesterol it contains we might as well abstain from eating a bunch of other stuff. 
> 
> http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-...000000000.html
> 
> http://www.ehow.com/about_5377043_fo...tosterols.html
> 
> As you can see there's Beta-sitosterol in lots of regular food, an avocado for example, contains more then TEN TIMES as much Beta-sis as two scoops (one serving) of toco-8.


 
yes i know, beta sitosterol is found in many foods. But the foods arent taken *constantly & consistently* like you have to with toco8.

you will take toco8 every day,BUT you will eat avocado once every week. <- this affects you differntly than taking it everyday than once a week.

As well as the cost angle, toco8 is not worth the cost. This regime is pretty cost effective.

Beta sitosterol works by blocking the AR all be it less potently than something like ru. Hence why toco8 was found to grow hair. This will affect your androgen levels (some have already experienced higher sex drive= boost in andorgen levels), and as i have stated, this combo is not potent enough to block the effects of fluctations in androgen levels and stop hair sheds should you decide to do this hence going against the main aim of the regime = to keep hair sheds to a minimuim, this is how people "percieve" regrowth, once hair sheds have stabilised.

----------


## Space

> yes i know, beta sitosterol is found in many foods. But the foods arent taken *constantly & consistently* like you have to with toco8.
> 
> you will take toco8 every day,BUT you will eat avocado once every week. <- this affects you differntly than taking it everyday than once a week.


 There's a bunch of stuff that contains beta-sis: Nuts and beans, vegetable oils, corn based snacks, margarine, dressing, mayonaise, chocolate, egg, bananas, the list goes on.

I bet most people consume numerous products every day containing equal, or higher, amount of beta-sis as Toco-8.

The cost is not really an issue here, I want to give Toco-8 a chance but at the same I don't want to interfere with the MSM/vitC combo.

But if your only issue with Toco-8 is the minimal amount of beta-sis it contains I don't think it's anything to worry about. 




> Beta sitosterol works by blocking the AR all be it less potently than something like ru. Hence why toco8 was found to grow hair. This will affect your androgen levels (some have already experienced higher sex drive= boost in andorgen levels), and as i have stated, this combo is not potent enough to block the effects of fluctations in androgen levels and stop hair sheds should you decide to do this hence going against the main aim of the regime = to keep hair sheds to a minimuim, this is how people "percieve" regrowth, once hair sheds have stabilised.


 On what do you base the assumption that Toco-8 was effective solely because of its beta-sitosterol? 

I've read that vitamin E helps capillary grow, which may be another explanation to why it was found to grow hair.

Regarding androgen levels, I was under the impression that finasteride and the like dropped your androgen levels, like and "opposite" to steroids, not boosted them...

----------


## gutted

> There's a bunch of stuff that contains beta-sis: Nuts and beans, vegetable oils, corn based snacks, margarine, dressing, mayonaise, chocolate, egg, bananas, the list goes on.
> 
> I bet most people consume numerous products every day containing equal, or higher, amount of beta-sis as Toco-8.
> 
> The cost is not really an issue here, I want to give Toco-8 a chance but at the same I don't want to interfere with the MSM/vitC combo.
> 
> But if your only issue with Toco-8 is the minimal amount of beta-sis it contains I don't think it's anything to worry about. 
> 
> 
> ...


 
the levels of beta sitosterol in them are pretty minute hence why they probably will not have any sort of adverse effect - since beta sitosterol binds to cholesterol too meaning some(if not all) of it is lost to this so cannot gain access to Androgen Recptors.

some people are extremeley sensitive and can cause upregulation by a small amount such as the amount present in toco8.

you can try it but if efficacy is hampered you should consider dropping the toco8.

Toco8 may have alternative modes of anti oxidant action, although i still believe its not worth the cost for very marginal results if any and any beneifit it provides is quite possibly offset against the effects of continuous beta sitosterol supplementation.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> There's a bunch of stuff that contains beta-sis: Nuts and beans, vegetable oils, corn based snacks, margarine, dressing, mayonaise, chocolate, egg, bananas, the list goes on.
> 
> I bet most people consume numerous products every day containing equal, or higher, amount of beta-sis as Toco-8.
> 
> The cost is not really an issue here, I want to give Toco-8 a chance but at the same I don't want to interfere with the MSM/vitC combo.
> 
> But if your only issue with Toco-8 is the minimal amount of beta-sis it contains I don't think it's anything to worry about. 
> 
> 
> ...


 toco 8 doesnt work

----------


## Space

> the levels of beta sitosterol in them are pretty minute hence why they probably will not have any sort of adverse effect - since beta sitosterol binds to cholesterol too meaning some(if not all) of it is lost to this so cannot gain access to Androgen Recptors.


 You don't see a flaw in your logic here? The levels of beta-sis is just as low in toco-8, so why would that have an adverse effect?

According to this article most Americans daily diet contains about 200-300mg of beta-sitosterol, and apparently that's not even adequate. Toco-8 on the other hand, contains 9mg of beta-sitosterol. *That's 3%*, and I'm pretty sure I consume more fruits than the average American, so for me it's probably an even more insignificant percentage of my daily intake. 




> some people are extremeley sensitive and can cause upregulation by a small amount such as the amount present in toco8.


 I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, androgen receptor upregulation is caused by low androgen levels, right?

You just wrote that Toco-8 increased your androgen levels in your previous post, so why would it cause androgen receptor upregulation?

Sorry if I misinterpreted you here.

----------


## gutted

> You don't see a flaw in your logic here? The levels of beta-sis is just as low in toco-8, so why would that have an adverse effect?
> 
> According to this article most Americans daily diet contains about 200-300mg of beta-sitosterol, and apparently that's not even adequate. Toco-8 on the other hand, contains 9mg of beta-sitosterol. *That's 3%*, and I'm pretty sure I consume more fruits than the average American, so for me it's probably an even more insignificant percentage of my daily intake. 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, androgen receptor upregulation is caused by low androgen levels, right?
> 
> You just wrote that Toco-8 increased your androgen levels in your previous post, so why would it cause androgen receptor upregulation?
> 
> Sorry if I misinterpreted you here.


 
its the consistency of taking beta sitosterol through toco8 supplementation. The dietery intake, likley, isnt consistent enough to cause/have any effect. There are other sterols present in toco8 that can affect/lower cholesterol levels - im not certain but this can have an indirect affect on androgen levels.

i took it a few years ago,although i wasnt self aware, hair wise at the time, but one thing i do know, i had sides using it/and not much results - i didnt use the toco8 brand i used the lef brand -> http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...otrienols.html

blocking the receptor can cause the body to upregulate its production of androgens as well as upregulate receptor activity. <- this is something that can affect your results with msm/vit c hence why i say you are better off not using it, together with the fact that there are no results reported by the people who use it.

you can use it if you want to but, you should note any libido changes/increased sebum secretion, and drop the toco8 should you feel like you are experiencig these symptoms.

----------


## Space

> its the consistency of taking beta sitosterol through toco8 supplementation. The dietery intake, likley, isnt consistent enough to cause/have any effect. There are other sterols present in toco8 that can affect/lower cholesterol levels - im not certain but this can have an indirect affect on androgen levels.


 How is it not consistent if the average American consumes 200-300mg *a day*? That's as consistent as it gets. 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that the average American doesn't eat enough fruit. I do, which means I get even more beta-sitosterol in my daily diet, since almost all fruit contains it. 

The toco-8 merely adds about 1-3% more to my daily intake, *how can that possibly have any effect that so ever?* 




> i took it a few years ago,although i wasnt self aware, hair wise at the time, but one thing i do know, i had sides using it/and not much results - i didnt use the toco8 brand i used the lef brand -> http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...otrienols.html


 That one doesn't seem to have Beta-sitosterol in it.

However, what kind of side effects did you experience? 



> blocking the receptor can cause the body to upregulate its production of androgens as well as upregulate receptor activity. <- this is something that can affect your results with msm/vit c hence why i say you are better off not using it, together with the fact that there are no results reported by the people who use it.


 Why would toco-8 block the receptor? The 3% beta-sitosterol boost to my daily diet?

----------


## gutted

> How is it not consistent if the average American consumes 200-300mg *a day*? That's as consistent as it gets. 
> 
> I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that the average American doesn't eat enough fruit. I do, which means I get even more beta-sitosterol in my daily diet, since almost all fruit contains it. 
> 
> The toco-8 merely adds about 1-3&#37; more to my daily intake, *how can that possibly have any effect that so ever?* 
> 
> 
> That one doesn't seem to have Beta-sitosterol in it.
> 
> ...


 it could be through other mechanisms that toco8 causes the upreglation - im not fully aware of how, but the beta sitosterol and the other sterols is something to watch out for. There are other varibales such as how you take it - taking beta sitosterol with food means it binds to cholesterol thus isnt able to gain access to the AR, but lowers cholesterol by blocking it thus having another indirect effect on androgen levels (since cholesterol is used to synthesise these homrones). Statin drugs (drugs that lower cholesterol) are known to cause excessive hair loss for reasons unknown.

As i have said the beta sitosterol is known to compete with the receptor/inhibit 5 alpha reductase but much if it is contradictory and not concrete. Blocking dht in any way is likley to impact this regime.

i had low libido when i was taking it and another innoeve product that contained phytosterols at the time. - i guess i was increasingly sensitive to beta sitosterol and i know without a doubt it was the beta sitosterol. You may be lucky and not so sensitive to its effects. 

you can use it if you want to but to keep things standardised, use the regime alone and then perhaps add the toco8 a few months down the line. Its up to you.

----------


## Space

> it could be through other mechanisms that toco8 causes the upreglation - im not fully aware of how, but the beta sitosterol and the other sterols is something to watch out for. There are other varibales such as how you take it - taking beta sitosterol with food means it binds to cholesterol thus isnt able to gain access to the AR, but lowers cholesterol by blocking it thus having another indirect effect on androgen levels (since cholesterol is used to synthesise these homrones). Statin drugs (drugs that lower cholesterol) are known to cause excessive hair loss for reasons unknown.


 Toco-8 is as I understand it completely natural, meaning you might as well get these things from eating fruit or something. I really don't think it's comparable to statin drugs or anything like that. 

Plus I take my toco-8 in a smoothie with oats and a bunch of other stuff. 




> i had low libido when i was taking it and another innoeve product that contained phytosterols at the time. - i guess i was increasingly sensitive to beta sitosterol and i know without a doubt it was the beta sitosterol. You may be lucky and not so sensitive to its effects. 
> 
> you can use it if you want to but to keep things standardised, use the regime alone and then perhaps add the toco8 a few months down the line. Its up to you.


 That begs the question what other thing you were taking?

----------


## gutted

> That begs the question what other thing you were taking?


 http://cosmeticsublime.gostorego.com...0-caplets.html

----------


## Cob984

im now one month into msm/vitc and 2 weeks into trx2 and my hair has never been in worse shape ever!! the only style i can wear now is a combover and even there my receding hairline is starting to show, i am in agony and really tempted to get back on the saw palmetto, i know it might be impatient but im losing it here

----------


## ammin

I am dropping the MSM too.  It makes my hair feel softer and I hate the feeling. I remember I was overseas for a week and did not bring my MSM with me and my hair felt coarser and I like that. I am not dropping the Vit C or TRX 2 though. These two work in my opinion. MSM and Vit C might work too in combination with each other but their effects on my hair texture are unbearable.

----------


## Jcm800

Have to chime in here as well. My hair texture is softer than I'm used too as well, not liking that myself, what's that about gutted?

----------


## Ginkosama

A few more questions :

-MSM speeds up the hair cycle right ? But doesn't a hair have a definite number of cycles and when it's over, it's over, it won't grow back ? So even if it's not cosmetically visible aren't we accelerating MPB ?

-does MSM increase body hair as well ?


Atm I am following "the natural"'s treatment from ************. I just ignored the MSM and Vit C cause I didn't find it relevant (nice move I know ..)

So far I am taking aged garlic extract with a glass of orange juice in the morning (for extra vit C) and one pill of toco sorb.
For lunch I take tumeric and ginger (gonna add cayenne soon to optimise absorption).
For dinner I take fish oil and one toco sorb.

I also take a gram of nigella seeds at every meal.


I am 2 months in and I have nothing positive to report yet apart from a great energy and libido.

I am gonna wait for the 3 months deadline to see how it goes and incorporate MSM and Vit C.

----------


## Jcm800

Gutted, you done a runner?  Lol

----------


## gutted

hi guys sorry have not come on to update, i feel a lot less need to come to the forums now.

As for the softer texture to hair whilst on msm, i havent noticed this effect - it *could* be very weak, new hairs growing out of the scalp making it look as if your hair has changed texture. 

i have to stress results for this take time, you need to give at least a min of 6 months ALONE to a max of 12 months. If your not prepared to do this, theres no point in trying and wasting money.

----------


## gutted

> im now one month into msm/vitc and 2 weeks into trx2 and my hair has never been in worse shape ever!! the only style i can wear now is a combover and even there my receding hairline is starting to show, i am in agony and really tempted to get back on the saw palmetto, i know it might be impatient but im losing it here


 if you read the thread i did state this will happen. it will take 3 weeks to 3 months for this to balance out for you, dont be foolish and jump on saw palmetto again, you may perceieve it to reduce your hair loss , but this effect is shortlived and you WILL start shedding again.* ride the shed* out and it will calm down and will regrow 3 months down the line.

I can say now say that since i dropped saw palmetto in end of august only the last 2 weeks have i noticed a reduction in these sheds - thats 2 months till these sheds/hormaones/AR's balanced out and calmed down for me. Now i literally lose a few hairs here and there which is normal.

----------


## gutted

> A few more questions :
> 
> -MSM speeds up the hair cycle right ? But doesn't a hair have a definite number of cycles and when it's over, it's over, it won't grow back ? So even if it's not cosmetically visible aren't we accelerating MPB ?


 yes it does speed up the cycle by keeping hairs in the angen phase/which minox does too. There are no definite number of cycles, these are myths. There will be no accelleration of mpb. In fact msm *stops* mpb. fin *delays* mpb.




> -does MSM increase body hair as well ?


 yes it does, body hair grows longer, beard hair grows faster. Hair all over the body grows much faster than usual.




> Atm I am following "the natural"'s treatment from ************. I just ignored the MSM and Vit C cause I didn't find it relevant (nice move I know ..)
> 
> So far I am taking aged garlic extract with a glass of orange juice in the morning (for extra vit C) and one pill of toco sorb.
> For lunch I take tumeric and ginger (gonna add cayenne soon to optimise absorption).
> For dinner I take fish oil and one toco sorb.
> 
> I also take a gram of nigella seeds at every meal.
> 
> 
> ...


 
i tied aged garlic extract with this combo earlier in th year, it doesnt work, the best results are achieved using the combo alone. 

As for tocosorb you can read my views on it in this thread.

----------


## ovoxo

for me it's going to be like 2 and a half months and haven't really seen any change, itching still present, hair quality same. But body hair changed it's quality and it really bothers me.

----------


## Jcm800

I'm going to roll with it still, got lots of msm in Stock,  just an excruciating waiting game, praying for the turn around, if it comes at all.

----------


## gutted

> I'm going to roll with it still, got lots of msm in Stock,  just an excruciating waiting game, praying for the turn around, if it comes at all.


 stick with it, dont do someting stupid and add something new to the equation.

----------


## gutted

> for me it's going to be like 2 and a half months and haven't really seen any change, itching still present, hair quality same. But body hair changed it's quality and it really bothers me.


 your also on minox right?

----------


## Jcm800

> stick with it, dont do someting stupid and add something new to the equation.


 Nah ill roll with the regime as is, tempted to add minoxidil again as we already discussed but ill hold tight. Think I'm riding through the post minox shed now, not going to interfere with that, at least not for a few months if the regime doesn't kick in.

----------


## gutted

> Nah ill roll with the regime as is, tempted to add minoxidil again as we already discussed but ill hold tight. Think I'm riding through the post minox shed now, not going to interfere with that, at least not for a few months if the regime doesn't kick in.


 trust me wait it out, you'll see these sheds calm down, give it 6 months. you should notice something within that timeframe.

----------


## Jcm800

Existing hair and nails are growing fast, deffo losing on my hairline tho, but guess that's down to 14 months of minox dependency.  Never felt minox helped me anyway re regrowth, but it may have been sustaining some hairs. Just have to wait and see if my hair cycles rejigs itself

----------


## gutted

> Existing hair and nails are growing fast, deffo losing on my hairline tho, but guess that's down to 14 months of minox dependency.  Never felt minox helped me anyway re regrowth, but it may have been sustaining some hairs. Just have to wait and see if my hair cycles rejigs itself


 they should grow back now that you have started msm, they would have gone dormant if you wasnt. keep an eye on that area, give it 3 months to let the hairs grow out.

----------


## ovoxo

> your also on minox right?


 yes, don't know if i should continue or not; also I wonder if topical cetirizine would somehow interfere?

----------


## Space

I gotta ask Gutted, did you take Saw Palmetto while taking Toco-8? 

You said you experienced decreased libido due to Toco-8 when we discussed a couple of days ago, and Saw Palmetto is widely known to decrease libido.

----------


## gutted

> I gotta ask Gutted, did you take Saw Palmetto while taking Toco-8? 
> 
> You said you experienced decreased libido due to Toco-8 when we discussed a couple of days ago, and Saw Palmetto is widely known to decrease libido.


 i linked you to the product i took with tocotreniols. it contained phytosterols. Beta sitosterol is in saw palmetto and saw palmetto also is known to boost libido, the way this occurs is due to upregulation.

in certain circumstances saw palmetto can boost libido and temporarily lower libido the same goes for tocotreniols.

----------


## gutted

> yes, don't know if i should continue or not; also I wonder if topical cetirizine would somehow interfere?


 i dont know i can only say what ive expericed with this combo alone, hence why i say use it alone. minox can cause irritation in some users, which may be misinterprested as the mpb itch. some people dont know what the "mpb itch" is either.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> i dont know i can only say what ive expericed with this combo alone


 Hi Gutted, just wondering how things are for you right now?

I know you started on Neogenic a while ago - you keeping that up?
Do you think you are seeing more/accelerated re-growth since incorporating it?

If so I might give it a try on my hairline & crown. They are both VERY thin areas for me at the moment and I'll try anything that could possibly aid results.

Thanks.

----------


## gutted

> Hi Gutted, just wondering how things are for you right now?
> 
> I know you started on Neogenic a while ago - you keeping that up?
> Do you think you are seeing more/accelerated re-growth since incorporating it?
> 
> If so I might give it a try on my hairline & crown. They are both VERY thin areas for me at the moment and I'll try anything that could possibly aid results.
> 
> Thanks.


 ive been applying to hairline and temples only. i havent seen anything...
it probably is bullshit. Although temples and hairline are the hardest to treat even with fin and minox, i would also assume neogenic is ineffective n this region too (or maybe ineffective as a whole) i wouldnt bother applying it anymore but since i only have a few left i will finish the remianing vials i have left and not reorder this.

with the msm combo i am recovering the hairs that i have shed previously and the diffusness is filling in as well as my shed rate going down to normal levels, i will give another update in 6 months time.

----------


## Irishamerica

> ive been applying to hairline and temples only. i havent seen anything...
> it probably is bullshit. Although temples and hairline are the hardest to treat even with fin and minox, i would also assume neogenic is ineffective n this region too (or maybe ineffective as a whole) i wouldnt bother applying it anymore but since i only have a few left i will finish the remianing vials i have left and not reorder this.
> 
> with the msm combo i am recovering the hairs that i have shed previously and the diffusness is filling in as well as my shed rate going down to normal levels, i will give another update in 6 months time.


 

Gutted thanks for the help and continually responding people to help ...I am 27 year old NW1/NW2 ...was using nizoral for the past 6 months and have not experinced any major shedding ....I am now wiser and have made the move from all SLS shampoo etc i use an organic shampoo called sukin here are the ingredients (Aqua, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Cocoamidopropyl Betaine, Decyl Glucoside, PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate, Equisetum Arvense Extract (Horsetail), Arctium Lappa Extract (Burdock), Urtica Dioica Extract (Nettle), Phenoxyethanol, Benzyl Alcohol, Citrus Tangerina (Tangerine) Peel Oil, Citrus Nobilis (Mandarin Orange) Peel Oil, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Oil, Vanilla Planifolia Extract, Citric Acid, Linalool,* Limonene)

basically i have good thiick hair ATM but experince ithcness and plus my dad is fully bald so wont to stop it before it starts ..

I just ordered Reganpure DL and and nt to replace the niz and plan on using it with MSm and VItc that i started taking last week .I read your older posts so just want to see your thoughts of this combo .I am not looking to regrow just to maintin ,


also th VIt c i order was is 100% vit c which is organic and made from wild berries instead of just the absorbic acid ( as i read you need you need the whole vit c not just absorbic acid ...any thoughts

----------


## Space

> i linked you to the product i took with tocotreniols. it contained phytosterols. Beta sitosterol is in saw palmetto and saw palmetto also is known to boost libido, the way this occurs is due to upregulation.
> 
> in certain circumstances saw palmetto can boost libido and temporarily lower libido the same goes for tocotreniols.


 Did you also take Saw Palmetto at the time?

----------


## ovoxo

is it possible that I stopped shedding (even though I'm on rogaine) and itch is still present? because I feel that I shed less hair than I used to before starting MSM.

----------


## Ginkosama

Any brand you do/don't recommand ?

I am hesitating between : 

- Nature's Way OptiMSM : http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-MS...0-Tablets/2488

-Vitacost "normal" MSM : http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-msm...ulfonylmethane

----------


## Jcm800

Not sure if it's msm working or the cessation of keto but the inflamed bumps irritation on my crown and nape of my neck has all but stopped.  Very happy about that!

I'm using OptiMSM.

----------


## Benzzro

Is taking both in powder form alright? And I'm actually planning to stop fin to try this, I'm diffuse in the hairline/crown area, can you see visual improvements within a few months? Or do you have to wait a year (If it works, that is

----------


## Cob984

im just using regular holand * barrett msm, 750 mg, eating 10-12 tabs a day?
this ok or i need optimsm?

----------


## gutted

> im just using regular holand * barrett msm, 750 mg, eating 10-12 tabs a day?
> this ok or i need optimsm?


 optimsm is preferred but any msm should be ok as long as it is pure.

you and others need to realise things *WILL* get worse before they get better for those that are inhibitting dht and have recently stopped doing this. This does not in any way mean you are going bald. The hairs shed ow will come back a few months down the line so long as you start the regime a few weeks proior to stopping fin or whatever it is you are using to inhibit dht.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted thanks for the help and continually responding people to help ...I am 27 year old NW1/NW2 ...was using nizoral for the past 6 months and have not experinced any major shedding ....I am now wiser and have made the move from all SLS shampoo etc i use an organic shampoo called sukin here are the ingredients (Aqua, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Cocoamidopropyl Betaine, Decyl Glucoside, PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate, Equisetum Arvense Extract (Horsetail), Arctium Lappa Extract (Burdock), Urtica Dioica Extract (Nettle), Phenoxyethanol, Benzyl Alcohol, Citrus Tangerina (Tangerine) Peel Oil, Citrus Nobilis (Mandarin Orange) Peel Oil, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Oil, Vanilla Planifolia Extract, Citric Acid, Linalool,* Limonene)
> 
> basically i have good thiick hair ATM but experince ithcness and plus my dad is fully bald so wont to stop it before it starts ..
> 
> I just ordered Reganpure DL and and nt to replace the niz and plan on using it with MSm and VItc that i started taking last week .I read your older posts so just want to see your thoughts of this combo .I am not looking to regrow just to maintin ,
> 
> 
> also th VIt c i order was is 100% vit c which is organic and made from wild berries instead of just the absorbic acid ( as i read you need you need the whole vit c not just absorbic acid ...any thoughts


 
i dont recommend niz at all, you can use it but its probable results will be affected.
I also dont recoemend any thing that inhibits dht - topical or internal. the shampoo seems to contain ingredients which have the ability to do this.

----------


## gutted

> Did you also take Saw Palmetto at the time?


 i took saw palmetto 9/10 months prior to supplementing with the tocotrieniols and inneove homme.

i was off saw palmetto for 3 months before incorporating tocotrienols and then inneove homme.

----------


## Cob984

i thought you said revivogen was ok? im still using that, and niz once a week
thats all the dht inhibiting im doing at the moment

i thought you recommended dropping the internal dht inhibitors immediately? i was planning on getting on the combo a month or so and then phasing them out but did it rather suddenly on your advice to let my hormone levels settle faster?
so i was wrong?

----------


## gutted

> is it possible that I stopped shedding (even though I'm on rogaine) and itch is still present? because I feel that I shed less hair than I used to before starting MSM.


 i really cant comment on your sitution since you are using rogaine. Rogaine liquid can cause irritation (i dont know about foam) for some, which can be mistaken for mpb itch. Hence why, one of the  things used to gauge whether the combo is working or not is blurred by this.

----------


## gutted

> Any brand you do/don't recommand ?
> 
> I am hesitating between : 
> 
> - Nature's Way OptiMSM : http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-MS...0-Tablets/2488
> 
> -Vitacost "normal" MSM : http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-msm...ulfonylmethane


 ive only had experience with one brand and that is doctors best and so far im happy with it, as long as the msm is pure it shouldnt really matter which msm you go for.

----------


## gutted

> Is taking both in powder form alright? And I'm actually planning to stop fin to try this, I'm diffuse in the hairline/crown area, can you see visual improvements within a few months? Or do you have to wait a year (If it works, that is


 
You can take in powder or tablet form but i think i read somehwre it is better to take in powdered form than tablet.

You are on fin, you will notice drastic shedding once stopping but if you start on the msm combo 3 weeks prior to dropping fin, and start on a relativeley, reasonable high dose and then lower down over the coming months you should be able to keep what you have. 
But you also you need to be aware things WILL get worse before they get better. You need to give it 3 months for you AR's and hormones to balance out/reset. Once this is achieved you will start to notice lower shed levels. After this is achieved you will notice some visual differences.

----------


## gutted

> i thought you said revivogen was ok? im still using that, and niz once a week
> thats all the dht inhibiting im doing at the moment
> 
> i thought you recommended dropping the internal dht inhibitors immediately? i was planning on getting on the combo a month or so and then phasing them out but did it rather suddenly on your advice to let my hormone levels settle faster?
> so i was wrong?


 no any form of inhibiting dht topical or internal is not reccomened. With topical such as keto and revivogen they may have the ability to gain systemi introduction, but is lessened because it is a topcal. To be safe it is best NOT to use any topical dht inhibitor but that is your call. Bottom line is  - it is best to use NO androgen inhibition, topical or internal.

yes dropping internal dht inhibitors immediately is ok or dropping cold turkey is ok too. Fin is much more potent and it probably would be wise to phase this out, than stop cold turkey.

----------


## Space

> i took saw palmetto 9/10 months prior to supplementing with the tocotrieniols and inneove homme.
> 
> i was off saw palmetto for 3 months before incorporating tocotrienols and then inneove homme.


 Ok.

Innoev homme explicitly states it's supposed to inhibit 5ar, so i would guess your decreased libido is an effect of that supplement, rather than toco-8.

Toco-8 contains 9mg mixed plant sterols: beta-sitosterol campesterol stigmasterol. We don't even know how much of that is Beta-sis, and how much is the other two. The dose is so extremely small that I can't imagine it really accomplishing that much 5ar inhibition. 

My 2 cents.

----------


## Cob984

gutted,
exactly how much worse does the hair get before getting better? my hair is absolute freefall, it looks like the combover of a 65 year old man, i cannot tolerate this and since we had similar responses to saw palmetto was it really this bad before it got better? i know its early days, 4 weeks in but im seeing regression and nothing else

----------


## Cob984

also, i will be having surgery soon under general anesth, prob last 3-4 hours, this ok for my hair regimen?

----------


## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> also, i will be having surgery soon under general anesth, prob last 3-4 hours, this ok for my hair regimen?


 no you should have surgery without anesthesia..

----------


## Cob984

i wish, but thats impossible

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> also, i will be having surgery soon under general anesth, prob last 3-4 hours, this ok for my hair regimen?


 It's not like you have a choice.

And your hair will be fine (I just had a jaw operation)

Although they tell you to drop multi vitamins before surgery as it may thin out your blood.

----------


## Cob984

actually i do have a choice, its cosmetic,
i had my gynecomastia surgery in august and am looking for more cosmetic enhancements,
fk it if i cant have my hair i can atleast improve what i can improve

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> actually i do have a choice, its cosmetic,
> i had my gynecomastia surgery in august and am looking for more cosmetic enhancements,
> fk it if i cant have my hair i can atleast improve what i can improve


 In that case it shouldn't have an affect.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Ok I have started this regime.

I am going to taper myself up to heavier doses.

Currently, 2 x 1500 MSM tablets and 2 x 1000 vit c tablets.

I normally dont shed much hair, 30 max, so looking for maintainence.

----------


## Ibrium

Can someone explain to me why everyone is blindly trusting gutted? I haven't seen him provide actual evidence or a scientific basis for half of what he's said here, it sounds like speculation to me. He's just one person. His experiences won't apply to everyone.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> In that case it shouldn't have an affect.


 


> Can someone explain to me why everyone is blindly trusting gutted? I haven't seen him provide actual evidence or a scientific basis for half of what he's said here, it sounds like speculation to me. He's just one person. His experiences won't apply to everyone.


 --No sides

--Vit c and msm is good for you anyway

-- cheap

----------


## clandestine

> gutted,
> exactly how much worse does the hair get before getting better? my hair is absolute freefall, it looks like the combover of a 65 year old man, i cannot tolerate this and since we had similar responses to saw palmetto was it really this bad before it got better? i know its early days, 4 weeks in but im seeing regression and nothing else


 Uhg. Fuᴄk combovers, buzz or shave it please.

Also, just a heads up, saw palmetto literally gave me gyno. Maybe I'm super prone, but it did.

----------


## Ibrium

> --No sides
> 
> --Vit c and msm is good for you anyway
> 
> -- cheap


 Sure, but he's been posting all other kinds of advice and specifics as though he has some kind of medical expertise into exactly how all these things work. Some of the comments on hormone-related issues are just totally baseless. 

It's almost always too much of a generalisation to say that something is "good for you anyway". Plenty of supplements have toxicity at levels that can easily be reached, so you generally shouldn't take advice on them from random strangers. It's fortunate that vitamin C is impossible to overdose on, and MSM appears to require fairly high levels to be dangerous as well, so at the worst I guess megadosing is just going to waste money.

Has there been any mention of sustained release vitamin C? I would expect that to be absorbed far better.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Sure, but he's been posting all other kinds of advice and specifics as though he has some kind of medical expertise into exactly how all these things work. Some of the comments on hormone-related issues are just totally baseless. 
> 
> It's almost always too much of a generalisation to say that something is "good for you anyway". Plenty of supplements have toxicity at levels that can easily be reached, so you generally shouldn't take advice on them from random strangers. It's fortunate that vitamin C is impossible to overdose on, and MSM appears to require fairly high levels to be dangerous as well, so at the worst I guess megadosing is just going to waste money.
> 
> Has there been any mention of sustained release vitamin C? I would expect that to be absorbed far better.


 Nope, but I am taking it. Need it anyway, recovering from an op where my jaw bone was broken.

How much vit c and msm is bad for you - btw I Thought of this before taking the capsules.

----------


## Cob984

> Uhg. Fuᴄk combovers, buzz or shave it please.
> 
> Also, just a heads up, saw palmetto literally gave me gyno. Maybe I'm super prone, but it did.


 it aggravated mine as well, i got surgery in august,
but now that it happened, im guessing it wont return if i start taking saw palmetto again, atleast it helps my hair without a doubt so its ok IMO

----------


## Cob984

btw, has everyone else on this thread quit all use of dht blockers and taken gutteds word for it?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> btw, has everyone else on this thread quit all use of dht blockers and taken gutteds word for it?


 I am not using any.

Never have.

Gutted I hope you are right

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I am not using any.
> 
> Never have.
> 
> Gutted I hope you are right


 My baseline photo:



I am a NW2 underneath my thick hair. So looking for maintainence.

----------


## Cob984

damn dude thats good hair, make me jealous,
1 year ago my hair looked like that of bon jovi, today its a combover, wow

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> damn dude thats good hair, make me jealous,
> 1 year ago my hair looked like that of bon jovi, today its a combover, wow


 Thanks man it was better when I was 20  :Frown: 
How old are you and much hair do you shed on average?

Yeah I empathize with you. I saw your experiences with saw palmetto, and I deliberately held off DHT blockers since noticing my hairline going back in 2009, because my shedding was always 10-30 hairs in the shower.

Gutted's treatment tbh, is likely to do nothing if it doesnt work except improve my health, which is why I prefer treatments like this.

I think in some cases the DHT blockers can accelerate your hairloss, where otherwise it will go at a slow rate.

----------


## Cob984

im 24, 
i got on saw palmetto in november 2011 and it thickened my hair immediately , had great result for about 3 months, then started regressing a bit and also sides, i was up and down on the dosage desperate to find a way to avoid sides till i finally had gyno surgery in august, all through i was regressing but still had pretty good hair

Now im in freefall, i knocked off the saw palmetto 3 weeks ago and am on gutteds regime, i am not shedding that much, when i apply oil for eg, i can see 3-4 hair and another 3-4 in the shower but my hairline is taking a beating and my hair is thinnning insanely, i had thick lustrous hair so this is the major shock, its not so much a shed, just insane thinning and i am very close to getting back on the saw palmetto because now i cannot step out of my house without feeling ashamed,

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> im 24, 
> i got on saw palmetto in november 2011 and it thickened my hair immediately , had great result for about 3 months, then started regressing a bit and also sides, i was up and down on the dosage desperate to find a way to avoid sides till i finally had gyno surgery in august, all through i was regressing but still had pretty good hair
> 
> Now im in freefall, i knocked off the saw palmetto 3 weeks ago and am on gutteds regime, i am not shedding that much, when i apply oil for eg, i can see 3-4 hair and another 3-4 in the shower but my hairline is taking a beating and my hair is thinnning insanely, i had thick lustrous hair so this is the major shock, its not so much a shed, just insane thinning and i am very close to getting back on the saw palmetto because now i cannot step out of my house without feeling ashamed,


 Sorry to hear that mate.

Why are you taking saw palmetto when its basically the same as fin?

And was the gyno related to saw palmetto?

----------


## Cob984

i already had gyno but the sp aggravated it

well cause its a milder blocker than fin is, thought i take it before going down the fin road,

i am not taking it anymore, been off 3 weeks but i might just go back on

----------


## Cob984

gutted,
have you ever wondered that maybe when you say the combo didnt work when you took sp but started to do so w/o it, its because it just bought this combo more time and trx2 was in your system longer? looks like the trx2 is a slow treatment
just a thought

----------


## Cob984

btw are any of you guys on this regimen also considering the Topical Cetirizine mentioned in the other thread? sounds promising to give it a go? opinions?

sorry for the multitude of posts but im getting desperate

----------


## gutted

> gutted,
> exactly how much worse does the hair get before getting better? my hair is absolute freefall, it looks like the combover of a 65 year old man, i cannot tolerate this and since we had similar responses to saw palmetto was it really this bad before it got better? i know its early days, 4 weeks in but im seeing regression and nothing else


 it depends on the individual, it did get worse to th epoint where my hair was see through on the left side only (the side which has the most density loss), but STARTS to reverse in a few weeks time.

you would need to wait it out for 3 months after dropping sp, usually levels start to reset within 3 weeks, *but* it can take upto 3 months.

----------


## gutted

> also, i will be having surgery soon under general anesth, prob last 3-4 hours, this ok for my hair regimen?


 intresting you should ask this question, i had surgery back in 2009 or 2010 under general anstheisa ( i cant remember exactly when) when i came out of surgery i took some pain killers (codiene) *this* was the time when i noticed my temples going back.

----------


## gutted

> Ok I have started this regime.
> 
> I am going to taper myself up to heavier doses.
> 
> Currently, 2 x 1500 MSM tablets and 2 x 1000 vit c tablets.
> 
> I normally dont shed much hair, 30 max, so looking for maintainence.


 the itch/increasedoil is a symptom of mpb, if this is under control, i believe mpb is also under control. If you dont have the itch/increased oil secretion, or dont know what im talking about you probably do not have mpb.

sides/backs are dry and itch free. I would also guess non balders have dry hair too.

----------


## gutted

> gutted,
> have you ever wondered that maybe when you say the combo didnt work when you took sp but started to do so w/o it, its because it just bought this combo more time and trx2 was in your system longer? looks like the trx2 is a slow treatment
> just a thought


 no its *definitely* the androgen suppression that affects treatments in a negtaive way. 

You can get back on SP right now and within the next 2/3 weeks stop/reduce your hair loss, but it *WILL* pick up again, its only a matter of *time*. 

Why dont you try sp again and come back and report what happens.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> the itch/increasedoil is a symptom of mpb, if this is under control, i believe mpb is also under control. If you dont have the itch/increased oil secretion, or dont know what im talking about you probably do not have mpb.
> 
> sides/backs are dry and itch free. I would also guess non balders have dry hair too.


 I do suffer from an oily scalp, where my hair feels flatter and it is not restricted to the top, sides and back do get oily too.

Normally find if I masturbate or have sex, the scalp gets oily very quickly.

The itch I have never had it, but my hairline still went back from a NW0 to a NW2. Hairs around the hairline get smaller and smaller.

----------


## Z1L

Hi Gutted, 

I've read through this thread and this stuff looks interesting. I've been taking saw palmetto for roughly 3 weeks. I've decided to drop it today and get on Msm and Vit C. 

How does this stuff essentially work?

Will these two supplements alone prevent Mpb from progressing? 

I am a Norwood 1 and I don't even know if I have Mpb for sure but it runs in my family a fair bit and i may be worrying my self for no reason at the moment. But I think I'll take this to hopefully prevent ands it's better to be safe than sorry.

Thanks for giving everyone your time.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Hi Gutted, 
> 
> I've read through this thread and this stuff looks interesting. I've been taking saw palmetto for roughly 3 weeks. I've decided to drop it today and get on Msm and Vit C. 
> 
> How does this stuff essentially work?
> 
> Will these two supplements alone prevent Mpb from progressing? 
> 
> I am a Norwood 1 and I don't even know if I have Mpb for sure but it runs in my family a fair bit and i may be worrying my self for no reason at the moment. But I think I'll take this to hopefully prevent ands it's better to be safe than sorry.
> ...


 I dont think gutted knows for sure. It's not scientific proven.

----------


## Cob984

Just added 1 dose of 120-150 sp extract back to my regimen again,

On the msm.vitc front with all due respect to gutted i doubt it does anything to stop mpb, it makes your hair grow a lot faster but does nothing to actually preventing mpb from my experience so far, about 5 weeks in.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Just added 1 dose of 120-150 sp extract back to my regimen again,
> 
> On the msm.vitc front with all due respect to gutted i doubt it does anything to stop mpb, it makes your hair grow a lot faster but does nothing to actually preventing mpb from my experience so far, about 5 weeks in.


 He is on TRX2 as well.

How do we know that isnt the key ingredient? It just took a while to kick in.

----------


## Cob984

> He is on TRX2 as well.
> 
> How do we know that isnt the key ingredient? It just took a while to kick in.


 actually i am quite convinced thats exactly what happened, it just took time and he happened to be on the msm/vitc and off sp when it did 

I am on trx2 as well but only in week 4 now and i cant let my hair detriorate while waiting for it to take effect so im back 1 dose on the sp

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> actually i am quite convinced thats exactly what happened, it just took time and he happened to be on the msm/vitc and off sp when it did 
> 
> I am on trx2 as well but only in week 4 now and i cant let my hair detriorate while waiting for it to take effect so im back 1 dose on the sp


 Well i am on vitc / msm , will let you guys know if anything happens, been about 4 days.

Shedding is still low. But then again it ALWAYS was.

----------


## Cob984

> Well i am on vitc / msm , will let you guys know if anything happens, been about 4 days.
> 
> Shedding is still low. But then again it ALWAYS was.


 same with me, shedding has always been less of a problem, its the thinning thats out of control

you not jumping on the trx2?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> same with me, shedding has always been less of a problem, its the thinning thats out of control
> 
> you not jumping on the trx2?


 Thought about it. Price is off putting.

How much hairs do you shed?

----------


## Cob984

> Thought about it. Price is off putting.
> 
> How much hairs do you shed?


 depends on the day, but i have noticed my hair shed is down in the shower atleast since trx2 when i shampoo i only see 3-4 hair now as opposed to 5-10 before, i guess if i tug at my hair or ruffle it i still shed 3-4.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> depends on the day, but i have noticed my hair shed is down in the shower atleast since trx2 when i shampoo i only see 3-4 hair now as opposed to 5-10 before, i guess if i tug at my hair or ruffle it i still shed 3-4.


 And you are thinning aggressively, god that is weird?

Wait - didnt you write before how when your thinning was really aggressive, you was shedding 120 hairs?

I take it you think TRX2 works

----------


## Cob984

Do not know if trx2 works yet, but my shed seems down,

yes i am thinning very very aggressively, but its always been this way, during my year on sp i have experimented with getting off it and everytime i do the thinning is massive, the sp doesnt solve my problem though, it just slows it, and now for the first time not only am i thinning but my temples are receding like crazy so much so that my family members are noticing it 

no that was never me, i only shed that much waaaay back before i started any medicine and even noticed i had mpb

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Do not know if trx2 works yet, but my shed seems down,
> 
> yes i am thinning very very aggressively, but its always been this way, during my year on sp i have experimented with getting off it and everytime i do the thinning is massive, the sp doesnt solve my problem though, it just slows it, and now for the first time not only am i thinning but my temples are receding like crazy so much so that my family members are noticing it 
> 
> no that was never me, i only shed that much waaaay back before i started any medicine and even noticed i had mpb


 Why are you on saw palmetto if you are taking trx 2?

----------


## Cob984

> Why are you on saw palmetto if you are taking trx 2?


 because my hair has taken a beating since i dropped it, its regressing badly, the shed may be down but on all other fronts its gotten way worse

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> because my hair has taken a beating since i dropped it, its regressing badly, the shed may be down but on all other fronts its gotten way worse


 So how do you know it is the saw palmetto working and not the trx2

----------


## Cob984

well i dropped the saw palmetto and started trx2 and my shed level dropped with it, 
but my hair has continued to thin and hairline regress so i am back on the sp, just a very low dose to slow things down and buy the trx2 more time to work, thats my logic anyway

at this point i dont give a crap what works as long as something slows this down ill pay and eat anything

----------


## MrBlonde

> Do not know if trx2 works yet, but my shed seems down,
> 
> yes i am thinning very very aggressively, but its always been this way, during my year on sp i have experimented with getting off it and everytime i do the thinning is massive, the sp doesnt solve my problem though, it just slows it, and now for the first time not only am i thinning but my temples are receding like crazy so much so that my family members are noticing it 
> 
> no that was never me, i only shed that much waaaay back before i started any medicine and even noticed i had mpb


 I too am going through this.  My hair is thinning very badly and shedding at the hairline a lot.  I look like a mess right now and am rocking the same pathetic looking combover as you in an attempt to cover it up.  The long hair MSM gives you means I can cover my temples but its obvious what I am doing.  People will glance at my hair when talking to me and you just know they are thinking "look at this bellend, he should just shave his head".  I wish I could but I have a big scar up there and a massive head so its not that I will look bad bald but I will look like a freak.  

Baldness and buzzing are not an option for me.  I am already looking at a partial frontal hair system while I try to recover from this and I am also saving for a HT to rebuild my hairline, although I won't do that until I stabilise this hairloss and thinning.  That is how desperate I am.

I have been on TRX2, VITC 4g and Opti MSM 9g for about 6 weeks now.  I have noticed a slight reduction in itching which gutted says is the first sign that this is working. He listed the following recovery stages in this programs

1. Reduction in itch (3 week to - 2 month mark)
2. Reduction in shedding (3 to 6 month mark)
3. Increase in density (6-12months)
4. Satablisation of MBP (12+ months)

The time markers are an approximation from memory of what he said but just go through the thread to find his exact approximations. I hope to god he is right and I am encouraged by the reduction in itching which would indicate things are on track but I have lost so much ground in 2 months and it could be another 4 until shedding reduces, not stops mind you, that I will be beyond the point of no return and will have lost my fight against MPB.  This and the thinning of hair and the fact non sulfate shampoo and MSM makes the hair very limp is compounding my woes.

I am hanging on by my fingernails here.  My right temple is shedding a lot more than my left so I try and play with the hairline and brush it accross but whatever way I work it I am a walking object of ridicule right now unless I wear a hat.  Even then my hair is so weak and limp that simply putting on and pulling off a hat causes hair fall.

I hope to god Gutted was right and things pick up.  I hope to G O D.

----------


## Cob984

looks like you have the patience atleast, did you drop any dht blockers etc while getting on the trx2 combo?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I too am going through this.  My hair is thinning very badly and shedding at the hairline a lot.  I look like a mess right now and am rocking the same pathetic looking combover as you in an attempt to cover it up.  The long hair MSM gives you means I can cover my temples but its obvious what I am doing.  People will glance at my hair when talking to me and you just know they are thinking "look at this bellend, he should just shave his head".  I wish I could but I have a big scar up there and a massive head so its not that I will look bad bald but I will look like a freak.  
> 
> Baldness and buzzing are not an option for me.  I am already looking at a partial frontal hair system while I try to recover from this and I am also saving for a HT to rebuild my hairline, although I won't do that until I stabilise this hairloss and thinning.  That is how desperate I am.
> 
> I have been on TRX2, VITC 4g and Opti MSM 9g for about 6 weeks now.  I have noticed a slight reduction in itching which gutted says is the first sign that this is working. He listed the following recovery stages in this programs
> 
> 1. Reduction in itch (3 week to - 2 month mark)
> 2. Reduction in shedding (3 to 6 month mark)
> 3. Increase in density (6-12months)
> ...


 
Were you on DHT blockers before?

----------


## bananana

I'll be honest here - I can see a reduced itch and far less oil. I've been using it for around 4 weeks now. 

The itch is so lowered I forget I have mpb during the day. That hasnt happened to me in a few years now.

Plus my scalp is really less oily - so this must work since I've dropped everything else (saw palmetto, toco sorb, equol, soy + capsaicin etc etc.) 

I'm planning to add cetirizine from the other thread since it is really cheap stuff, I'm probably going to use dermaroller to "puncture" my scalp and then spray the stuff on it.
We'll see.

----------


## clandestine

> Will these two supplements alone prevent Mpb from progressing?


 Not likely.

If you're a NW1 though you may as well take them.

----------


## MrBlonde

> looks like you have the patience atleast, did you drop any dht blockers etc while getting on the trx2 combo?


 


> Were you on DHT blockers before?


 Not really.  To further elaborate on that I purchased Minox, Lipogaine and was on S-equol for a few weeks. I tired to order in Fin also but it was seized and destroyed by customs.

I have never used the Rogaine.  Lipogaine is a mix of Minoxidil Enhanced with Azelaic Acid DHT Blocker, Biotin, Vitamins and is considered and Intensive Treatment & Complete Solution for Hair Loss.  I tired this once.  I applied to the crown and my eyes burnt so bad for the 30 mins after applying I never touched it again.  I was also wary of the initial shed.

I am against drugs and prefer the natural approach to the body.  I ordered Fin and these other product in desperation and against my natural product taking will and had already made up my mind not to take Fin when I got the letter from customs.

S-equol I took for a few weeks.  It is naturally produced in the gut I think.  Eating a lot of Soy converts bacteria or something in the digestive tract into s-equol which binds to DHT stopping its effectiveness, that could be totally wrong but its close-ish.  A lot of Asian men who have high Soy diets also have lots of hair, its no surprise that wig makers get the hair they tie into the systems from there so I gave it a go.

The company shut down so I decided not to continue taking it.  What would be the point to keep on taking it? If it worked I had no follow up supply so I dropped it cold turkey and have a bottle and a half left.  This was months before I got on TRX2/VITC/MSM so I was not inhibiting DHT at the same time.

Cob984 I don't its a good idea to mix programs.  With Fin and Minox there is a shed too so you have to try and ride these things out.  I know its easier said then done but dropping and starting will do more harm.  You will read this in numerous threads around here.

I don't know if this will work but I am giving it 12 months.  Fingers crossed.

----------


## Cob984

im not mixing, i mean saw palm is a mild dht blocker at best, all its doing is slowing my deterioration down, w/o it my hair is taking a pounding and with no guarantee that this combo works i cant hold on

i will not take fin or minox while on this program, that much i know, am giving it atleast 6 months before i decide whether to take either

----------


## MrBlonde

> im not mixing, i mean saw palm is a mild dht blocker at best, all its doing is slowing my deterioration down, w/o it my hair is taking a pounding and with no guarantee that this combo works i cant hold on
> 
> i will not take fin or minox while on this program, that much i know, am giving it atleast 6 months before i decide whether to take either


 You might want to check with Gutted but even a mild DHT blocker could effect this programs efficacy. 

People are reporting a reduction in itching, at least three of us and I don't think there are much more than that on this program.  This would indicate stage one is being reached.  If we keep each other informed and updated we can judge this programs efficacy well.

The thinning is a worry though.  I would like gutted to let us know did he experience this?  MSM and non sulfate makes hair very limp imo so I think its maybe making things look slightly worse than they are although there is no doubt thinning is taking place.  Some of us are diffuse, I believe I am and this may mean the results of this program will vary for each person, not only in the timeline of results but the final result itself.

----------


## Cob984

> You might want to check with Gutted but even a mild DHT blocker could effect this programs efficacy. 
> 
> People are reporting a reduction in itching, at least three of us and I don't think there are much more than that on this program.  This would indicate stage one is being reached.  If we keep each other informed and updated we can judge this programs efficacy well.
> 
> The thinning is a worry though.  I would like gutted to let us know did he experience this?  MSM and non sulfate makes hair very limp imo so I think its maybe making things look slightly worse than they are although there is no doubt thinning is taking place.  Some of us are diffuse, I believe I am and this may mean the results of this program will vary for each person, not only in the timeline of results but the final result itself.


 I would love to but i want the trx2 combo to be in my system several months before i start taking away the other blockers etc,
If Fin + minox work better than each alone then why wont sp + trx2? gutteds logic is shed rates, but i have never experienced bad sheds nor the itch people talk about, my problem is aggressive thinning, if i wait 6-12 months for this regimen to kick in my fight will be well and truly over and thats a risk i cannot take

if this was a proven/scientific treatment i might take the risk but its not and i need some mental assurance that im not relying 100% on this treatment,

----------


## gutted

> I do suffer from an oily scalp, where my hair feels flatter and it is not restricted to the top, sides and back do get oily too.
> 
> Normally find if I masturbate or have sex, the scalp gets oily very quickly.
> 
> The itch I have never had it, but my hairline still went back from a NW0 to a NW2. Hairs around the hairline get smaller and smaller.


 msm'll solve your problem.

The itch is hard to detect if you dont pay attention, i suspect you do have it, but brush it off as a normal dandruff related scratch.

----------


## gutted

> Hi Gutted, 
> 
> I've read through this thread and this stuff looks interesting. I've been taking saw palmetto for roughly 3 weeks. I've decided to drop it today and get on Msm and Vit C. 
> 
> How does this stuff essentially work?


 Im not quite sure, i suspect it normalises the cox chain reaction (which includes pgd2) minox does this too. But i cant say for sure how it works. 




> Will these two supplements alone prevent Mpb from progressing?


 yes i believe it can, although i have to say its not proven to.

----------


## gutted

> Just added 1 dose of 120-150 sp extract back to my regimen again,
> 
> On the msm.vitc front with all due respect to gutted i doubt it does anything to stop mpb, it makes your hair grow a lot faster but does nothing to actually preventing mpb from my experience so far, about *5 weeks in*.


 you need patience, and time. 5 weeks is a baby step to stabilising mpb.

it takes around 6 months for this to occur, (+3months if you recentley dropped any andorgen inhibiting subtance, topical or internal)

as you can see the months add up, which is why it takes time.

----------


## gutted

> He is on TRX2 as well.
> 
> How do we know that isnt the key ingredient? It just took a while to kick in.


 its *definiteley* not the trx2 alone.

its the msm/vit c that stops mpb, and trx2 that regrows.

----------


## gutted

> I don't know if this will work but I am giving it *12 months*.  Fingers crossed.


 this is the correct attitude, you need to give it 12 months solid, no other product introduced at all. Ride these so called "sheds" out, they are not sheds, they are hairs which would have been lost anyway, which WILL return.

----------


## gutted

> You might want to check with Gutted but even a mild DHT blocker could effect this programs efficacy. 
> 
> People are reporting a reduction in itching, at least three of us and I don't think there are much more than that on this program.  This would indicate stage one is being reached.  If we keep each other informed and updated we can judge this programs efficacy well.
> 
> *The thinning is a worry though*.  I would like gutted to let us know did he experience this?  MSM and non sulfate makes hair very limp imo so I think its maybe making things look slightly worse than they are although there is no doubt thinning is taking place.  Some of us are diffuse, I believe I am and this may mean the results of this program will vary for each person, not only in the timeline of results but the final result itself.


 it will affect the efficacy for sure.

there is no thinning with with this combo, any thinning is down to mpb or people who have recently dropped dht inhibitors will experience this, that will reverse in approx 3/6 months time.

diffuse thinners are the ones who will experince the best results with this at the 12 month mark, they will easily be able to see the diffuseness fill in over the months. Taking pictures may be a good idea too.

----------


## gutted

as for the people reporting limp hair, it may be due to *reduction in oil secretion* that is giving you this effect, you may want to use a good conditioner.

----------


## MrBlonde

> it will affect the efficacy for sure.
> 
> there is no thinning with with this combo, any thinning is down to mpb or people who have recently dropped dht inhibitors will experience this, that will reverse in approx 3/6 months time.
> 
> diffuse thinners are the ones who will experince the best results with this at the 12 month mark, they will easily be able to see the diffuseness fill in over the months. Taking pictures may be a good idea too.


 So you were not thinning before this treatment or you were?  I cant remember.

Did you hair feel flat, limp or thin at all at any stage and would you say your hair is thick now?    How was your crown looking?

How thick is your hair now compared to the worst point of your MPB on this program? and do you still experience hairfall at the hairline?

----------


## gutted

> So you were not thinning before this treatment or you were?  I cant remember.


 yes i was thinning in a diffuse manner BECAUSE of mpb, most visible on the left side.




> Did you hair feel flat, limp or thin at all at any stage and would you say your hair is thick now?    How was your crown looking?


 yes it was flat, thin, and limp, because of the thinning that had occured because of mob. Not AFTER i started this combo. I never witnessed this. My crown was not "bad" but i could tell i was starting to lose density in this region, but not noticeable to the naked eye.




> How thick is your hair now compared to the worst point of your MPB on this program? and do you still experience hairfall at the hairline?


 [/QUOTE]


if i did not introduce saw pal, garlic extract and curcumin in march of this year and induce sheds i would say my diffuseness on the left side would have filled in more and right side would have gained more density and i would not be coming here anymore! However because i did introduce those, i shedded some hairs which i can see slowly returning, i can give a better update in 6 months on this.
The crown looks fuller and more denser since starting, even though there was no problem here, but i can tell ive grown new hair here.

The hairline has not moved since staying on the combo consistently, it only moved when i *dropped the msm*. which was last year, and how i discovered that its the msm that works.

its a long term treatment, people give propecia 12/24 months to do its job, the same should be expected of other treatments. Getting impatient and then introducing other treatments does not help in any way, but induce sheds that keeps you on this never ending "shed" roundabout.

----------


## Cob984

gutted, ok, i am considering dropping the sp again, have just taken one 120 mg dose, hopefully thats not enough to spoil progress,

But since dropping sp my hairline especially on the left is taking a beating, you are asking me to be patient but if i wait a few months by then my hairline will be non existent, so how do you suggest i approach this, i guess everyone balds differently but mine is very very aggressive, on my mothers side all males were more or less bald by my age 24 to give you an idea

----------


## gutted

> gutted, ok, i am considering dropping the sp again, have just taken one 120 mg dose, hopefully thats not enough to spoil progress,
> 
> But since dropping sp my hairline especially on the left is taking a beating, you are asking me to be patient but if i wait a few months by then my hairline will be non existent, so how do you suggest i approach this, i guess everyone balds differently but mine is very very aggressive, on my mothers side all males were more or less bald by my age 24 to give you an idea


 lol first and foremost, you need to decide what you want to do! 
If you think your having a "shed" or taking a "beating" you need to ride this out for the greater good.

Like i said, those hairs are only shedding because of your SP use. 
Yes...its probably likley if you got back on sp now you would start to notice some reduction in shed but this again will be shortlived and you *will* be back to square one again within a few weeks to months. 
Then when/ or if you deicde to drop the SP, you will thin out again (like you are doing now), and then decide to get back on it again, and "think" that its "helping" your mpb <- its a never ending cycle, (its the same for fin too.)

if you want to continue with this you need to be prepared to not use anything else for the 12 months that you are on it, the results in order of appearence are outlined in one of my earlier posts.

The thinning you are experiencing will resolve in a matter of months, you just need to be patient and not introduce anything else, this WILL affect your hair.

----------


## Irishamerica

> lol first and foremost, you need to decide what you want to do! 
> If you think your having a "shed" or taking a "beating" you need to ride this out for the greater good.
> 
> Like i said, those hairs are only shedding because of your SP use. 
> Yes...its probably likley if you got back on sp now you would start to notice some reduction in shed but this again will be shortlived and you *will* be back to square one again within a few weeks to months. 
> Then when/ or if you deicde to drop the SP, you will thin out again (like you are doing now), and then decide to get back on it again, and "think" that its "helping" your mpb <- its a never ending cycle, (its the same for fin too.)
> 
> if you want to continue with this you need to be prepared to not use anything else for the 12 months that you are on it, the results in order of appearence are outlined in one of my earlier posts.
> 
> The thinning you are experiencing will resolve in a matter of months, you just need to be patient and not introduce anything else, this WILL affect your hair.


 

GUtted what shampoo are you using . I have been on the MSM Combo for 3 weeks and have already noticed a reduced itch. I also swicthed from Niz to the Regenepure combo 2 weeks ago. ALread my sc alp feels better and i dont have any more lumps or redness "i think this is down to the aloe vera "I have real thick hair NW2 but and oliy scalp and face . The MSM has really stoped oil prodcuion in my head and face I belive after 3 weeks .


How many teaspoons do the powder do you take a day? i read that its better to space them out beacsue like other nutrients you need a gap of a couple of hours to ensure optimal absorbation . 

I am also using pure vitmin c made from Berries (not absorbic acid )

----------


## gutted

> GUtted what shampoo are you using . I have been on the MSM Combo for 3 weeks and have already noticed a reduced itch. I also swicthed from Niz to the Regenepure combo 2 weeks ago. ALread my sc alp feels better and i dont have any more lumps or redness "i think this is down to the aloe vera "I have real thick hair NW2 but and oliy scalp and face . The MSM has really stoped oil prodcuion in my head and face I belive after 3 weeks .
> 
> 
> How many teaspoons do the powder do you take a day? i read that its better to space them out beacsue like other nutrients you need a gap of a couple of hours to ensure optimal absorbation . 
> 
> I am also using pure vitmin c made from Berries (not absorbic acid )


 
that great news, but can you really attribute the success to the msm/vitc, since you are using regenepure which does contain ingredients such as keto and saw palmetto etc, (you should be careful of systemic introduction) - these can also reduce oil production too by blocking the AR/5ar enzyme etc, so your result is slig***ley blurred but i do believe the msm/vitc is working for you too.

i take in pill form 9 grams a day, but 6 grams a day is also enough. Yes vitc from berries is ok. Taking msm in intervals should also be ok.

i use a tgel shampoo. -> http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/neutr...ir_1_9904.html

----------


## Cob984

i still find it very bemusing that you so vehemently oppose anything like keto/saw palm etc even topically just cause the regimen worked for you, 

i have a question, so if ur temples also receded while you got off the sp  and waited for the regime to kick in, did your temples actually gain that lost ground back? I know you say those would have been lost to mpb anyway but id rather have them with sp then without

----------


## dex89

> that great news, but can you really attribute the success to the msm/vitc, since you are using regenepure which does contain ingredients such as keto and saw palmetto etc, (you should be careful of systemic introduction) - these can also reduce oil production too by blocking the AR/5ar enzyme etc, so your result is slig***ley blurred but i do believe the msm/vitc is working for you too.
> 
> i take in pill form 9 grams a day, but 6 grams a day is also enough. Yes vitc from berries is ok. Taking msm in intervals should also be ok.
> 
> i use a tgel shampoo. -> http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/neutr...ir_1_9904.html


 bought it.

can you post which msm and vitc pills your taking?

----------


## gutted

> i still find it very *bemusing* that you so vehemently oppose anything like keto/saw palm etc even topically just cause the regimen worked for you, 
> 
> i have a question, so if ur temples also receded while you got off the sp  and waited for the regime to kick in, did your temples actually gain that lost ground back? I know you say those would have been lost to mpb anyway but id rather have them with sp then without


 i think most are finding it outlandish that i dont reccomend any dht blockers!!! theres a good reason to it but you will just have to trust me on this, i have explained in some of the posts the reason why, but i guess some people wont/cant understand.

When i dropped sp just recently (august) my left side frontal regions thinned out, ive slolwy gained back the lost density, & its still increasing, in the next 6 months i expect it to be fully filled in. I also gave an explantation as to *why* this occurs.

When i say "those would be lost to mpb anyway" what i mean is they were already going to *fallout* The telogen phase was initiated hence the fallout (they will come back, if you stick with msm).

You WILL get those hairs back if you stick to the msm, ive said in the thread *msm stops dormancy*, even if you take it with dht blockers. The only thing it CANT stop is sheds caused by sp/dht blocking/reflex hyperandogenicty. <- this is what we all want to avoid & it doesnt give you the *visible* results you want.
These random sheds make it appear as if the msm/vitc "does not work" this blurs your judgement, hence why i say to reach the later stages of - *reduced shed rate & stablisation of mpb* you cant be using dht blockers as the only way of *knowing* its working for you is through a reduced shed rate which dht blockers "blur/counteract".

----------


## gutted

> bought it.
> 
> can you post which msm and vitc pills your taking?


 i take this, although any pure form of msm is ok.

http://www.google.co.uk/products/cat...ed=0CGEQ8wIwAA

your on fin, you should read the thread on what to expect out of this.

----------


## gutted

> i still find it very bemusing that you so vehemently oppose anything like keto/saw palm etc even topically just cause the regimen worked for you,


 The regime *will work* for anyone, those with simple hair loss to aggressive mpb if followed as directed.
anyone can block the production of oil through saw palmetto, keto or any androgen inhibiting substance etc 
but these only last so long, before you are back to square one. Not only that, but they also blur your results, and can actually aggrevate your hair loss, if *ANY* systemic introduction is made. IF this occurs you will have more hairs falling out (*not neccasrily lost,thats if you are on msm btw*) since there is NO way of knowing if any systemic introduction is being made, 
its better to be safe than sorry.

The point of this combo is, it reduces the production of oil through an AR/5ar enzyme independant mechanism which i speculate lasts forever. It also may have the potential to stop hair loss dead in its tracks, something which fin/dut cant do.

----------


## Cob984

i am seriously confused now, how can it get worse if you use dht blockers? you are saying if i use the msm combo with the revivogen and once a week niz which i am doing currently my shed will be greater than the benefit the msm provides? 

i would love to believe you are the genius thats figured out mpb but maybe it just suited your body that way and dht blockers were never the answer for you. i dont know at this point i really dont have the confidence to drop revivogen and niz and ride the worsening out, im seeing my hair worsen dramatically and ill lose my mind knowing that all im doing is just msm/trx2/vitc and expect to wait a good 6 months to see improvement, sorry but im just too paranoid and i will lose my mind
(maybe if more posters apart from you come on here in a few months and say yes this combo in isolation is the way forward i will get some more courage to do the same but now now, i have too much else going on in life as is)

in that case, should i might as well be on a 120-150mg dose of oral sp a day as well?

----------


## gutted

> i am seriously confused now, how can it get worse if you use dht blockers? you are saying if i use the msm combo with the revivogen and once a week niz which i am doing currently my shed will be greater than the benefit the msm provides?


 It *MAY* get worse, we know androgen suppression does not stop hair loss forerver,it only delays it for some time, how long? no one knows. You already stated previously sp was losing effectiveness...

Its a hard to comprehend scenario, but simply, you will not get anything *VISIBLE* out of msm/trx2/vitc. you may prevent hairs from going dormant, and that is all you will get out of msm/vitc should you decide to use it with dht blockers. 





> in that case, should i might as well be on a 120-150mg dose of oral sp a day as well?


 This is up to you! going back and forth certainly isnt helping you or your hair in anyway, make a decision and stick with it.

----------


## Irishamerica

> that great news, but can you really attribute the success to the msm/vitc, since you are using regenepure which does contain ingredients such as keto and saw palmetto etc, (you should be careful of systemic introduction) - these can also reduce oil production too by blocking the AR/5ar enzyme etc, so your result is slig***ley blurred but i do believe the msm/vitc is working for you too.
> 
> i take in pill form 9 grams a day, but 6 grams a day is also enough. Yes vitc from berries is ok. Taking msm in intervals should also be ok.
> 
> i use a tgel shampoo. -> http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/neutr...ir_1_9904.html


 Thanks ..Yeah I started the MSM combo 2 weeks before and after 2 weeks i noticed at the end of the work day my head is greasy because i have oily skin...since being on the combo the oil prodcution in my face has really dried up . I get mild acne when i come off my proactiv which i have been using since i was 18 (now 26) ..I think i might be finally ready to come off the proactiv becauseof this combo because before i started the combo if i missed a day of proactiv i would get realy greasy and spots would appear ...since the combo none of that ...I believe this is has also led to the reduce itch on my head ....only been about a month  but so far so good .....i am not looking to grow new hair just maintan hope it continues

----------


## Jcm800

Hmm, my head is itching again and I've got dandruff which had cleared up back. 

Still shedding mildly, I'm using tgel and have been for a while, tempted to have a single wash with keto again just to clear it up

----------


## gutted

> Thanks ..Yeah I started the MSM combo 2 weeks before and after 2 weeks i noticed at the end of the work day my head is greasy because i have oily skin...since being on the combo the oil prodcution in my face has really dried up . I get mild acne when i come off my proactiv which i have been using since i was 18 (now 26) ..I think i might be finally ready to come off the proactiv becauseof this combo because before i started the combo if i missed a day of proactiv i would get realy greasy and spots would appear ...since the combo none of that ...I believe this is has also led to the reduce itch on my head ....only been about a month  but so far so good .....i am not looking to grow new hair just maintan hope it continues


 good to hear. Yes i beleive it should help other androgen mediated disorders too.
Stick with it you should be able to maintain. I find that when the msm/vitc is dropped the increased oil secretion and itch returns.

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## gutted

> Hmm, my head is itching again and I've got dandruff which had cleared up back. 
> 
> Still shedding mildly, I'm using tgel and have been for a while, tempted to have a single wash with keto again just to clear it up


 how long has it been since you dropped the keto?

also how much of the msm are you taking?

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## Jcm800

> how long has it been since you dropped the keto?
> 
> also how much of the msm are you taking?


 Dropped the keto around 4 wks ago. 

I take 5 msm caps am and 4 pm along with 3 trx and vit c powder. Been on that a couple of months approximately

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## gutted

> Dropped the keto around 4 wks ago. 
> 
> I take 5 msm caps am and 4 pm along with 3 trx and vit c powder. Been on that a couple of months approximately


 shouldnt really use the keto again, and let things balance out. But if you want to, thats up to you.

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## Jcm800

> shouldnt really use the keto again, and let things balance out. But if you want to, thats up to you.


 I'll ride it out unless it gets unbearable, I have used a thickening shampoo a few times as well, may have caused the dandruff. I'll leave that out and see what happens.

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## gutted

> I'll ride it out unless it gets unbearable, I have used a thickening shampoo a few times as well, may have caused the dandruff. I'll leave that out and see what happens.


 i doubt it would be the thickening shampoo. 
If your hair gets too dry, it may appear limp and dry. This may give you some dry dandruff. you should use a good conditioner.

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## Jcm800

> i doubt it would be the thickening shampoo. 
> If your hair gets too dry, it may appear limp and dry. This may give you some dry dandruff. you should use a good conditioner.


 
Yeah probably a good move as my hair is quite shaggy now-certainly grows quick these days, where I'm not losing it. can you recommend a high street conditioner mate?

----------


## Irishamerica

Or any good thicking shampoos (sls free of course)?

----------


## gutted

> Yeah probably a good move as my hair is quite shaggy now-certainly grows quick these days, where I'm not losing it. can you recommend a high street conditioner mate?


 i cant remember the name of the one i use off the top of my head. i will get the name of it tomorrow and post. Any good one should be ok though.

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## gutted

> Or any good thicking shampoos (sls free of course)?


 i think the one ive been using recently is a volumising conditioner, have no idea if its sls free though.

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## Irishamerica

When i was 21 i started recdeding with slight edevil horbns but my is like aston kutchers so it can cover it up ..I am now 26 and still have the same hair as than . I have bee smoking weed since i was that age . I have a decreased libido because of the weed ( i reckon) ..Do you reckon this has slowed down my hairloss ?just thorwing it out there

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## gutted

> When i was 21 i started recdeding with slight edevil horbns but my is like aston kutchers so it can cover it up ..I am now 26 and still have the same hair as than . I have bee smoking weed since i was that age . I have a decreased libido because of the weed ( i reckon) ..Do you reckon this has slowed down my hairloss ?just thorwing it out there


 who knows -> http://cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-01-5.pdf

THC is known to interact with the anti inflammatory protiens and enzymes that causes hair loss, so i wont discredit it.

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## Irishamerica

> When i was 21 i started recdeding with slight edevil horbns but my is like aston kutchers so it can cover it up ..I am now 26 and still have the same hair as than . I have bee smoking weed since i was that age . I have a decreased libido because of the weed ( i reckon) ..Do you reckon this has slowed down my hairloss ?just thorwing it out there


 read that back sorry my spelling was all over the place was in work so typing fast ."really looks bad on weed " ha

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## b0urna

Hi Guys,
Iv been following this forum for the past 6months now so thought its about time for me to chime in. Im 26 years old, currently a NW1.5-2, but prior to MBP thinning I had very thick hair so I can still cover most balding signs up well. All the men in my family are bald, a gene passed down from my dads side.
Around a year ago I started shedding hair pretty badly, talking 200 odd hairs a day (roughly, I still had alot of hair at this point and its hard to estimate), so decided to try to find a way to treat it. I started, like alot of people do, with natural remedies such vitamins (biotin, garlic pills etc). When I realised my balding was much too aggressive for these treatments, I moved to a low strengh Minoxidil (2%) and then added oral Saw Palmetto. Instantly after adding SP I noticed a massive drop in the amount of hair I was shedding in the shower, but I couldnt keep up the oral SP because of sides - red itchy areas of skin over my body, loss of libido, at one point my nipple even swelled up (no shit) causing me to drop it straight away. At this point I decided to try SP topically, and began adding it to my Minox bottles. This cut out all of the sides for me and left had all the benefits I had whilst taking it orally. After 2 months into this regime, my topical Min/SP became in-effective and I noticed my hair deteriorating.
It was around this point that I was browsing the forum, and noticed Gutted had created this forum topic, about combining Vit C + MSM, so I decided to go cold turkey from all other supplements/treatments and jumped aboard. I also wanted to take some medicine for muscle damage so thought bugger it, what can I lose? After dropping SP/Min I rode through a bitch of a shed, for the first 2-3 weeks I was losing hundreds of hairs a day. But then after around a month on Gutted's combo, I noticed I wasnt picking as many hairs out of my fingers every time I ran my hands through my hair, and that my scalp wasnt oily anymore. I have also recently noticed that any hairs I shed dont have a white bulb around the bottom (gutted, in a recent post of yours I heard you refer to it as 'solidified sebum', a symptom of mpb).
I currently take 9 grams MSM together with 4 grams vit C daily (sticking strictly to the regime Gutted saw results from). Both the Vit C and MSM I take are in powder form, I simply stir it all into a glass of water and orange squash every morning and chug it before work.
One thing I worry about is I currently live in the UK, but am moving to Sydeny, Australia on monday for a 3 month business trip. I plan to continue my routine abroad and will seek my MSM/Vit C as soon as I arrive. However, my girlfreind and I have booked a month holiday in New Zealand and im unsure if I will be able to take MSM on the plane/or find it in NZ. 
Gutted, you mentioned you noticed increased shedding after dropping your combo for 7days, would I lose all benefits after a month? Also does anyone know the policy of taking medicine/vitamins in your flight luggage?
Anyway just wanted to pitch in to let people know im also experimenting (and seeing results) with this combo ALONE and I will continue this until it either becomes ineffective or a true cure becomes available. 
Thanks Gutted, youve bought me some time and right now thats as precious thing.




> When i was 21 i started recdeding with slight edevil horbns but my is like aston kutchers so it can cover it up ..I am now 26 and still have the same hair as than . I have bee smoking weed since i was that age . I have a decreased libido because of the weed ( i reckon) ..Do you reckon this has slowed down my hairloss ?just thorwing it out there


 I have been an avid ganja smoker for the past 10years, I smoke around 1-2 joints per day, it didnt stop me losing hair! Though saying that I have outlasted the other men in my family, they were all bald by my age, so maybe it has contributed. If THC is the cure, im a happy man  :Big Grin:

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## Irishamerica

Boura what shampoos are you using ? I am on both of the powder forms of the combo too. I don't have a scales in terms of teaspoons how much do u use? Also what type of Vit c are you taking is it pure Vit c or the absorbic acid kind ?

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## b0urna

> Boura what shampoos are you using ? I am on both of the powder forms of the combo too. I don't have a scales in terms of teaspoons how much do u use? Also what type of Vit c are you taking is it pure Vit c or the absorbic acid kind ?


 I dont use shampoos/conditioners anymore, I have naturally very curly hair and using these usually result in it going straight or too soft. The MSM I use is this (http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pag...did=101&cid=37) and take 2 1/4 teaspoons worth, along side just under 1 teaspoons worth of this Vit C, which is of the Ascorbic Acid kind (http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pag...powder&rdcnt=1) . Hope this helps.

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## Jcm800

> I dont use shampoos/conditioners anymore, I have naturally very curly hair and using these usually result in it going straight or too soft. The MSM I use is this (http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pag...did=101&cid=37) and take 2 1/4 teaspoons worth, along side just under 1 teaspoons worth of this Vit C, which is of the Ascorbic Acid kind (http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pag...powder&rdcnt=1) . Hope this helps.


 I'm on that Holland and Barrett vit c powder myself, stir half a tea spoon in with orange juice, certainly makes a zesty drink lol

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## b0urna

> I'm on that Holland and Barrett vit c powder myself, stir half a tea spoon in with orange juice, certainly makes a zesty drink lol


 Agreed. Kinda like knockoff fanta!

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## gutted

> Gutted, you mentioned you noticed increased shedding after dropping your combo for 7days, would I lose all benefits after a month? Also does anyone know the policy of taking medicine/vitamins in your flight luggage?
> Anyway just wanted to pitch in to let people know im also experimenting (and seeing results) with this combo ALONE and I will continue this until it either becomes ineffective or a true cure becomes available. 
> Thanks Gutted, youve bought me some time and right now thats as precious thing.


 Roughly, it took about 2 weeks before the itch/oil started to return, but this shouldnt be too detrimental, you should get back on it as soon as you return. 
If you can find some raw garlic in new zealand and vitamin c and take that you should be fine. Although im sure i saw a website in new zealand which stock msm.

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## ovoxo

after two and a half months I don't see any reduction in sebum/oil - my face is always oily, no reduction in itching, so maybe i'm not using good suplements, or it just doesn't work for me. I'm not stopping this regime, I'll give it a year, but was expecting something at this point.

i take this MSM - http://well.ca/products/webber-natur...lets_5368.html 
it says it is OptiMSM so I guess it should be good, could the vitamic C make the difference?

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## gutted

> after two and a half months I don't see any reduction in sebum/oil - my face is always oily, no reduction in itching, so maybe i'm not using good suplements, or it just doesn't work for me. I'm not stopping this regime, I'll give it a year, but was expecting something at this point.
> 
> i take this MSM - http://well.ca/products/webber-natur...lets_5368.html 
> it says it is OptiMSM so I guess it should be good, could the vitamic C make the difference?


 what other things are you on/were on? shampoo, internals etc

also do you take the msm with the vit c? and how much of the msm and vitc do you take?

you should have noticed some reduction in oil by now. Perhaps try a higher dose of msm.

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## ovoxo

well I was using niz before starting this combo 3 months ago, for like six months, which did nothing, it didn't reduce itch or dandruff so I was thinking of dropping it either way, and now I just take 9g MSM plus 4g vit c together; never used anything to reduce dht

i use rogaine but don't think that has to do something with oiliness; and than again I many times think about the fact if it is mph or something else, because itch occurs everywhere on the scalp

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## gutted

> well I was using niz before starting this combo 3 months ago, for like six months, which did nothing, it didn't reduce itch or dandruff so I was thinking of dropping it either way, and now I just take 9g MSM plus 4g vit c together; never used anything to reduce dht
> 
> i use rogaine but don't think that has to do something with oiliness; and than again I many times think about the fact if it is mph or something else, because itch occurs everywhere on the scalp


 regardless of whethere its mpb or not, it should reduce sebum output.

What norwood are you?

also which rogaine do you use? the liquid or the foam version? The liquid one is more oily, and can give the effect of oilyness on your hair.

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## ovoxo

nw 1.5-2 diffuse, i use rogaine foam

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## gutted

> nw 1.5-2 diffuse, i use rogaine foam


 try 12 grams of msm.

do you itch on the back & sides as well?

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## ovoxo

yes, back & sides too

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## gutted

> yes, back & sides too


 this is not very common, Could it be a reaction to rogaine? 

perhaps consider trying the msm/vitc alone sometime in the future.

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## ovoxo

I have this itch for over a year now, so i would not blame rogaine, it is frustrating not knowing why I itch everywhere

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## gutted

> I have this itch for over a year now, so i would not blame rogaine, it is frustrating not knowing why I itch everywhere


 try 12grams for a few weeks see if it helps. You shouldnt really be itching back & sides. It could be another microbial/bacterial issue.

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## ovoxo

ok, will try

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## Cob984

its a shame msm makes all hair grow so much, im a very hairy guy as is and my body hair is growing with my head hair lol, its very annoying, might need to tone down msm

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## Ginkosama

How much more hairy are we talking about Cob ?
I am a lil' hairy myself and taking nigella seeds + toco increased my body hair length by at least a centimeter. 

I am jumping on this regiment as well.
So far I am on :
Breakfast: green clay - aged garlic extract - one pill of toco sorb  - vit D
Lunch : cayenne + ginger + curcumin
Diner : fish oil + one pill of toco sorb

I started all this shit two months ago and I am shedding like a cheap rug since the beginning of november. If this keeps on going I will go from NW2.5 to NW5 over winter.
I just can't explain why, I am using very soft shampoos (Jason's) alongside with some dandruff shampoos when the itch is just unbearable(Sebiprox mostly, so no keto, and Alphosyl (with tar coal) once in a while) 
Yet the itch never goes away, this is just frustrating.

I plan on adding 3 grams of MSM every breakfast and lunch with one gram of Vit C for a start.

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## Cob984

quite a bit more hairy mate, i think im growing shoulder hair now ffs

might be time for some hair removal research

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## gutted

> I am jumping on this regiment as well.
> So far I am on :
> Breakfast: green clay - aged garlic extract - one pill of toco sorb  - vit D
> Lunch : cayenne + ginger + curcumin
> Diner : fish oil + one pill of toco sorb
> 
> 
> I plan on adding 3 grams of MSM every breakfast and lunch with one gram of Vit C for a start.


 you need to drop all that! MSM & C is all you need!

I shed alot of hairs when i was on garlic extract and curcumin too.

Hair all over you body grows in length much faster with msm. I would rather have hair on my scalp and have more body hair than no hair on my scalp and mild body hair.

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## Jcm800

I'm itching back and sides too, hmm could be the dandruff playing up. Cant say i'm noticing any benefit from trx2,msm, vit c so far but shall plug away at it..

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## gutted

> I'm itching back and sides too, hmm could be the dandruff playing up. Cant say i'm noticing any benefit from trx2,msm, vit c so far but shall plug away at it..


 thats odd. Usually the back and side dont itch with mpb.

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## Jcm800

> thats odd. Usually the back and side dont itch with mpb.


 Yeah tis weird, even my sideburns itch sometimes. But it is mainly itchy around the mpb areas tho.

Its 3 months now since starting this combo religiously. And around 8 months on trx2 , perhaps i need to give it more time, which i will do..

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## gutted

> Yeah tis weird, even my sideburns itch sometimes. But it is mainly itchy around the mpb areas tho.
> 
> Its 3 months now since starting this combo religiously. And around 8 months on trx2 , perhaps i need to give it more time, which i will do..


 yeah probably need to let the effects of the keto wear off. How many times a week did you used to use niz?

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## Jcm800

> yeah probably need to let the effects of the keto wear off. How many times a week did you used to use niz?


 Used to use it twice per week on and off, for months and months, havent used it for about one month now tho, have noticed the inflamed 'bumps' have stopped flaring up - so far thats the only benefit really of any of this tbh.

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## StuckInARut

Is this the "Holy Grail" of MPB treatments? Sure sounds like it the way it has been discussed in this thread. For the record I have added some MSM and Vitamin C to my regimen, however, I don't take the amounts you suggested and I haven't stopped taking anything I was already using. I just take enough supplements already and don't want to overdue it adding much more. I am also not prepared to stop taking anything I am already using because I really am determined to try it for atleast 6 months to see if there are any results. I am 3 months in and I have maintained and think I may be noticing some regrowth.

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## gutted

> Is this the "Holy Grail" of MPB treatments? Sure sounds like it the way it has been discussed in this thread. For the record I have added some MSM and Vitamin C to my regimen, however, I don't take the amounts you suggested and I haven't stopped taking anything I was already using. I just take enough supplements already and don't want to overdue it adding much more. I am also not prepared to stop taking anything I am already using because I really am determined to try it for atleast 6 months to see if there are any results. I am 3 months in and I have maintained and think I may be noticing some regrowth.


 who knows???...

read the thread on what you should expect should you use it with other stuff.

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## StuckInARut

Yes, I've read this thread in it's entirety as I've been following it for awhile now. It's just you seem so sure that it works wonders when usually (and this is true for treatments for anything) individual results vary. Not knocking you however so don't think I am on your case or anything just was curious. In any case the results sound very positive so it is worth a go in any capacity. 

I've read everything that has been written in regards to taking this combo with other supplements. I know it may mess with the efficacy but I've had positive results with what I am currently using and want to stay the course. I just figured a little MSM and extra Vit. C wouldn't hurt. Thanks for this thread though very interesting.

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## gutted

> Yes, I've read this thread in it's entirety as I've been following it for awhile now. It's just you seem so sure that it works wonders when usually (and this is true for treatments for anything) individual results vary. Not knocking you however so don't think I am on your case or anything just was curious. In any case the results sound very positive so it is worth a go in any capacity. 
> 
> I've read everything that has been written in regards to taking this combo with other supplements. I know it may mess with the efficacy but I've had positive results with what I am currently using and want to stay the course. I just figured a little MSM and extra Vit. C wouldn't hurt. Thanks for this thread though very interesting.


 yeah i understand where your coming from. i do believe this works wonders if its followed as directed, the only thing i cant say it works wonders for is if you use it with other stuff since there is a liklihood of interaction that *blurs* the "signs" that tell you its actually working. i.e reduced oil output, reduced shed etc.

Since these are the only tell tale signs that tell you its actually working, you would have to keep things standardised and use it alone to witness these.

By all means use it with whatever your using Its a great addidtion to any regime, just dont expect these "signs" to surface for you. They may, they may not, they may occur yet not last long due to other factors.

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## Cob984

ok im absolutely terrified now, im seeing no stabilization yet, my temples continue to take a beating and my hair is just thinning all around

i am starting 120-150 mg of sp a day today onwards and am considering getting on RU and or the CET topical

anyone have good experience with RU?

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## bananana

> ok im absolutely terrified now, im seeing no stabilization yet, my temples continue to take a beating and my hair is just thinning all around
> 
> i am starting 120-150 mg of sp a day today onwards and am considering getting on RU and or the CET topical
> 
> anyone have good experience with RU?


 dude, you really need to wait it out! 12 months if not more. msm has benefited me without a doubt. No more itch, no more oil after 2 months, but I'm also looking for regrowth, I'll probably try cetirizine along with msm combo - what do you thing about it gutted?

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## Cob984

its easy to wait it out if you have stabilized, i have not and i cannot see my hair lost in front of my eyes, if i wait 12 months ill have nothing left to fight for,

all the msm does is grow my hair out, i never had much of an itch to begin with so cant comment on that

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## bananana

> its easy to wait it out if you have stabilized, i have not and i cannot see my hair lost in front of my eyes, if i wait 12 months ill have nothing left to fight for,
> 
> all the msm does is grow my hair out, i never had much of an itch to begin with so cant comment on that


 I understand, that means you have a somewhat atypical mpb, I'm no scientist, maybe gutted or someone else will have better understanding of your case...

In my case I have a massive oil on my scalp for about 3 years now, back then I didnt know it was related with mpb. Now that is gone and itch is MUCH lower.

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## gutted

> dude, you really need to wait it out! 12 months if not more. msm has benefited me without a doubt. No more itch, no more oil after 2 months, but I'm also looking for regrowth, I'll probably try cetirizine along with msm combo - what do you thing about it gutted?


 
i dont think it will hurt to try it. I suspect it works along the same lines as msm/C so there really is no need for ceritizine but i dont think this will have any adverse reactions with the msm/C but i cant say for sure.

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## gutted

> its easy to wait it out if you have stabilized, i have not and i cannot see my hair lost in front of my eyes, if i wait 12 months ill have nothing left to fight for,
> 
> all the msm does is grow my hair out, i never had much of an itch to begin with so cant comment on that


 ive already explained why your shedding (not losing) hair in one of my posts in this thread, and anyone dropping androgen inhibiting substances *WILL* experience a shed (not loss) which is temporary and grows back, (if they take msm/C).

If you read the post about sp in the last few pages, you should gather that these substances put you in a false sense of belief that they stop hair loss, when they dont. They may appear to stop it for the first few weeks but things turn around very quickly.

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## bananana

> i dont think it will hurt to try it. I suspect it works along the same lines as msm/C so there really is no need for ceritizine but i dont think this will have any adverse reactions with the msm/C but i cant say for sure.


 aha. hm, it works anti flammatory, so I guess it wouldn't hurt. But people here claimed they saw regrowth with its use, so I'm guessing some combo effect can be seen while using it with msm/vitc.

I'll experiment and let you know.

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## gutted

> aha. hm, it works anti flammatory, so I guess it wouldn't hurt. But people here claimed they saw regrowth with its use, so I'm guessing some combo effect can be seen while using it with msm/vitc.
> 
> I'll experiment and let you know.


 yes i dont think it would hurt. you can try it out and let us know how it goes.

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## Cob984

but im not really shedding, im thinning?
i dont see massive amounts or unusual amounts of hair in the shower

how to explain that?

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## gutted

> but im not really shedding, im thinning?
> i dont see massive amounts or unusual amounts of hair in the shower
> 
> how to explain that?


 to thin out like you are, you are obviously shedding *alot* of hair. If you have short hair (like a buzz cut) its pretty difficult to watch these hairs shed.

you cant thin out by not shedding hair!

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## Cob984

what are you talking about? of course you can! the hair gets weaker and smaller and the consequently the gap b/w two hairs looks wider than before,

I dont have a buzz cut so i would know if i was shedding unnaturally, iv shedded much worse than what i am these days yet my temples recede and hair thins

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## gutted

> what are you talking about? of course you can! the hair gets weaker and smaller and the consequently the *gap b/w two hairs* looks wider than before,
> 
> I dont have a buzz cut so i would know if i was shedding unnaturally, iv shedded much worse than what i am these days yet my temples recede and hair thins


 yes, this is *density loss*, which is also refferred to as "*diffuse thinning*".

this doesnt happen without shedding hair. Im sure you stated you was losing alot of hair in your previous posts???

Hairs getting smaller in diameter or (thinner) is minuturaisation. This happens over years, not a few weeks.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> yes, this is *density loss*, which is also refferred to as "*diffuse thinning*".
> 
> this doesnt happen without shedding hair. Im sure you stated you was losing alot of hair in your previous posts???
> 
> Hairs getting smaller in diameter or (thinner) is minuturaisation. This happens over years, not a few weeks.


 Yes - this is correct.

Exactly how my hairloss is.

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## Jcm800

Have you noticed any miniaturised hairs increasing in diameter at all gutted? 

Also, any activity on your hairline? I don't think any one year plus users of trx 2 have received the benefits stated on their site yet?!

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## Benzzro

Surely more people have added this to their regimen!? Anyone got any results at all? I just dropped Fin last week and hopped on this combo (Without TRX2, shit is expensive). Hoping to at least maintain since my hair isn't bad now, just thinning in frontal/crown area.

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## gutted

> Have you noticed any miniaturised hairs increasing in diameter at all gutted?


 This ones a hard one, i really cant say, i would need a micrscopic pic of basleine and after to answer this, which i dont. The only thing ive noticed is increased density, this gives the appearance of thicker hair.




> Also, any activity on your hairline? I don't think any one year plus users of trx 2 have received the benefits stated on their site yet?!


 nope nothing in this region and to be honest im not expecting any, the temples are the hardest places to treat. Although i did see signs of frontal regrowth just behind the hairline on the left side a couple of months back which was pretty motivational! This region was diffuse for the past 2 years.
Although i shedded those hairs due to stuff i started then, and im expecting them to regrow in the next few months.

----------


## gutted

> Surely more people have added this to their regimen!? Anyone got any results at all? I just dropped Fin last week and hopped on this combo (Without TRX2, shit is expensive). Hoping to at least maintain since my hair isn't bad now, just thinning in frontal/crown area.


 hope you read the thread, be prepared for a shed. Supplement with 12 grams msm if you can afford to for the first 1 or 2 months if possible.

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## Cob984

so gutted you have been over a year on this stuff and your temples have still regressed? why do you think you are going to get them back?

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## gutted

> so gutted you have been over a year on this stuff and your temples have still regressed? why do you think you are going to get them back?


 no my temples havent regressed. they have stayed the same for the passed year.

The only area that i *noticed* diffuse thinnig is the left side (i have no doubt it has occured on the right side too, but because that side is thick it wasnt noticable/visible), this was initiated by the supplements i introduced earlier this year.

Im confident i will get those hairs back, im *already* seeing 50% of those hairs return already, i can give a better update in 6 months time on this.

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## Jcm800

Gutted, do you think you'd be seeing any kind of progress if you didn't use trx2?

Luckily my next batch will be my freebie, I said I'd give it a year, can't help thinking it's a rip off

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## gutted

> Gutted, do you think you'd be seeing any kind of progress if you didn't use trx2?
> 
> Luckily my next batch will be my freebie, I said I'd give it a year, can't help thinking it's a rip off


 i do believe trx2 works like minox but we all know in some people minox doesnt stop thier hair loss for good. this is why i say trx2 provides regrowth, msm stops.

if you cant afford it, just buy the individual ingredients.

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## Jcm800

Been down the individual ingredients road, Jeez id rattle if I did that again. 

I'll continue, I'll give trx the benefit of the doubt and roll with it for a while yet.

----------


## gutted

> Been down the individual ingredients road, Jeez id rattle if I did that again. 
> 
> I'll continue, I'll give trx the benefit of the doubt and roll with it for a while yet.


 lol

10char

----------


## 534623

> lol
> 
> 10char


 Do you think he will be THE poor guy out of 10 who will not see any hair growth?
Or do you think he will be one of the 9 other guys who could see hair growth in their wet dreams?

----------


## gutted

> Do you think he will be THE poor guy out of 10 who will not see any hair growth?
> Or do you think he will be one of the 9 other guys who could see hair growth in their wet dreams?


 there is no garauntee in life, just as there is no garauntee with HT's, fin & minox.

that 1 person out of 9 was most likley the so called "aggressive balder"  Within the mpb community they are a minority NOT a majority, although drugs such androgen inhibitors can and do make non aggressive balders into aggressive ones.

Although i believe the combo works for any balding type, "aggressive or not aggressive", *if* followed as directed.

----------


## Jcm800

> Do you think he will be THE poor guy out of 10 who will not see any hair growth?
> Or do you think he will be one of the 9 other guys who could see hair growth in their wet dreams?


 Wouldn't say I'm the poor guy at all. On the contrary, started losing around the age of 27 and am now a golden oldie in my early forties, still got a mop, but I'm gradually losing it, I'm soo vain i want to hang on to it though :-)

----------


## Cob984

thats ridiculous, dht blockers will make a non aggressive balder into an aggressive one?

this will only work if followed as directed for everyone??

gutted i do greatly appreciate your advice and for this thread but you are getting quite comical man, i sincerely think you should stop your theories and just mention this as personal experience and what worked for you rather than some profound mpb breakthrough

----------


## 534623

> Wouldn't say I'm the poor guy at all. On the contrary, started losing around the age of 27 and am now a golden oldie in my early forties, still got a mop, but I'm gradually losing it, I'm soo vain i want to hang on to it though :-)


 hmmrm, seems TRX2 prevents at least base jumping (without using a parachute) from a bridge  or tower or crane or something.

----------


## StayThick

Gutted, thanks for the write up. You single handedly just caused a debit of $300+ dollars on my credit card. I just bought a 3-month supply of TRX-2, bought some MSM, and VitC....quick question: I tried my best to read the entire thread but could you elaborate on ANY sides from this combo you may or may not have experienced?

I took FIN for 11 months and it was one of the worst drugs I ever put in my body..it's been 6 months off and I'm finally enjoying the normal functioning of my body pre FIN. My hesitation ordering TRX-2 and MSM were sides, but apparently I do not see many topics on this. The last thing I want to do is add this and experience lower libido, gyno, etc. Can you share your experiences in this area?

I am a NW 1.5/2 at 27 yrs old with noticeable thinning in the hairline/corners area. Im hoping for a slight benefit here before considering a FUE transplant. Could you also explain the purpose of the MSM and its effect on halting MPB? I am new to this supplement and any added info would be great. I want to ensure I'm smart this time around when putting new supplements in my body...in the mean time I will continue to read this thread if my questions were already answered.

Thanks.

----------


## gutted

> thats ridiculous, dht blockers will make a non aggressive balder into an aggressive one?
> 
> this will only work if followed as directed for everyone??
> 
> gutted i do greatly appreciate your advice and for this thread but you are getting quite comical man, i sincerely think you should stop your theories and just mention this as personal experience and what worked for you rather than some profound mpb breakthrough


 lol its an alien concept thats not fully proven hence the scepticism from you all. But yes if followed as directed it will "work" but what does "work" mean to you? maintain?? regrowth??? depends on what you want.

ask 534623 if dht blocking stopped his hairloss....some people continue to bald despite getting rid of the "cause" of mpb. DHT is an *initiator* of hair shedding, but not the *cause*...the cause is something else.

----------


## StayThick

> thats ridiculous, dht blockers will make a non aggressive balder into an aggressive one?
> 
> this will only work if followed as directed for everyone??
> 
> gutted i do greatly appreciate your advice and for this thread but you are getting quite comical man, i sincerely think you should stop your theories and just mention this as personal experience and what worked for you rather than some profound mpb breakthrough


 Don't think it's a breakthrough, I agree, but if his experiences hold true...I personally believe it's worth trying. I refuse to go bald, but I don't expect a miracle from gutted's regimen. If I can gain thicker density and prevent or slow future loss without the sides I got from FIN, then it's worth a shot.

My .02

----------


## Jcm800

Gutted, I'm taking 5 msm am and 4 pm, is it worth ramping my intake up to 12 daily now do you reckon? How many are you knocking back?

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, thanks for the write up. You single handedly just caused a debit of $300+ dollars on my credit card. I just bought a 3-month supply of TRX-2, bought some MSM, and VitC....quick question: I tried my best to read the entire thread but could you elaborate on ANY sides from this combo you may or may not have experienced?
> 
> 
> I took FIN for 11 months and it was one of the worst drugs I ever put in my body..it's been 6 months off and I'm finally enjoying the normal functioning of my body pre FIN. My hesitation ordering TRX-2 and MSM were sides, but apparently I do not see many topics on this. The last thing I want to do is add this and experience lower libido, gyno, etc. Can you share your experiences in this area?


 I havent noticed any sides from the combo, trx2 or msm, i dont think msm has any sides, it may give you some initital *detox* sides but that is it, which subside after a few weeks on it. It wont give you no sexual sides, they dont work the combo doesnt work through androgen suppression like androgen inhibitors do.




> I am a NW 1.5/2 at 27 yrs old with noticeable thinning in the hairline/corners area. Im hoping for a slight benefit here before considering a FUE transplant. Could you also explain the purpose of the MSM and its effect on halting MPB? I am new to this supplement and any added info would be great. I want to ensure I'm smart this time around when putting new supplements in my body...in the mean time I will continue to read this thread if my questions were already answered.
> 
> Thanks.


 i really dont know myself why it works, but i can see its working. If you want more insight into how it works, you need to read the first post, this will tell you most of what you need to know. I *suspect* it works along the "pgd2" pathway.

----------


## Cob984

> Gutted, thanks for the write up. You single handedly just caused a debit of $300+ dollars on my credit card. I just bought a 3-month supply of TRX-2, bought some MSM, and VitC....quick question: I tried my best to read the entire thread but could you elaborate on ANY sides from this combo you may or may not have experienced?
> 
> I took FIN for 11 months and it was one of the worst drugs I ever put in my body..it's been 6 months off and I'm finally enjoying the normal functioning of my body pre FIN. My hesitation ordering TRX-2 and MSM were sides, but apparently I do not see many topics on this. The last thing I want to do is add this and experience lower libido, gyno, etc. Can you share your experiences in this area?
> 
> I am a NW 1.5/2 at 27 yrs old with noticeable thinning in the hairline/corners area. Im hoping for a slight benefit here before considering a FUE transplant. Could you also explain the purpose of the MSM and its effect on halting MPB? I am new to this supplement and any added info would be great. I want to ensure I'm smart this time around when putting new supplements in my body...in the mean time I will continue to read this thread if my questions were already answered.
> 
> Thanks.


 0 sides and no chance of them either...there is 0 harm in trying this except the hole in your pocket, im personally almost 7 weeks in, not seeing any stabilization or improvement yet, lets see at week 12

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, I'm taking 5 msm am and 4 pm, is it worth ramping my intake up to 12 daily now do you reckon? How many are you knocking back?


 im taking 9grams, and i find its more than enough.

If your not growing hair and nails like lightning speed. then you need to up the dose, you *WILL* notice this effect all over the body at 9grams.

If you are already noticing this effect, then there is nothing more to do than wait it out, and let the hairs cycle through.

you can try 12grams for a few weeks to see how you get on.

----------


## gutted

> 0 sides and no chance of them either...there is 0 harm in trying this except the hole in your pocket, im personally almost 7 weeks in, not seeing any stabilization or improvement yet, lets see at week 12


 lol dude your failing to understand, dropping androgen inhibitors WILL have this effect.

your also *still* taking the androgen inhibitors, i can assure you im confident this combo will NOT stop what is going on in your body right now hence you WONT be seeing stabilisation/improvement with the combo. 

You need to set your expectations of what you will achieve with this combo if you are taking it with androgen inhibitors.

----------


## Cob984

you do realize i just started one 120 mg dose of saw palmetto only this week right? and iv only had 3 days now, besides you mentioned that i might not see visible improvement with this combo if i take androgen inhibitors too but i will maintain right? if i begin to see maintenance i will report, 

if i see someone else on this forum has had success exclusively on this combo i will agree

if the trx2 website itself mentions to continue to use mild dht blockers as well as niz, i think i rather believe them, also 'against all this' one of the posters with success on trx2 used niz all along

also your theory on not seeing improvement is what? shed rate vs growth rate, well i am not shedding unnaturally anyway so i dont see how this logicall applies to me

till more people come out and say yes this work w/o any topical or internal suppressors, i will prefer to live in the real world thank you

----------


## StayThick

Gutted, what other supplements or treatments are you taking in conjunction to this...Minox, shampoos..etc?

----------


## Cob984

besides i have read through the trx2 thread extensively,
people with results on trx2

you - from your posts you were clearly reporting good things on trx2 while you were still on niacin , sp etc etc
ulanude - only trx2
against all this - trx2 + niz

people on your combo

blonde - nothing after months
jcm - nothing after months
ammin - dropped msm and using revivogen as well

blame me for being skeptical? you want me to wait what? 6 months? 1 year? till i go slick bald and lose my mind? i think not

----------


## gutted

> you do realize i just started one 120 mg dose of saw palmetto only this week right? and iv only had 3 days now, besides you mentioned that i might not see visible improvement with this combo* if i take androgen inhibitors too but i will maintain right?* if i begin to see maintenance i will report,


 thats not what i said, you will *still shed hair*, but that hair will likley *not go into dormancy*.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, what other supplements or treatments are you taking in conjunction to this...Minox, shampoos..etc?


 nothing else, just tgel salycily acid shampoo, and a conditioner -> http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/tesco...poo_300ml.html

----------


## Cob984

i already told you for the 10000 times , i am not shedding anymore than i have previously,

----------


## gutted

> besides i have read through the trx2 thread extensively,
> people with results on trx2
> 
> you - from your posts you were clearly reporting good things on trx2 while you were still on niacin , sp etc etc
> ulanude - only trx2
> against all this - trx2 + niz
> 
> people on your combo
> 
> ...


 
lol dude, im not telling you wait 1 year!! its up to you what you want to use with it, im just laying down how you will notice these results...

if you want to use it with other stuff, you can do, but dont *expect* these reults to be replicated by you, since there are factors that can affect your judgement if you use it with other stuff. You should read the thread over again.

----------


## Cob984

so how is that the other members got results on trx2 w/o this combo or people on the combo arent seeing the timeline you did?

its simple really, everyones different

----------


## gutted

> i already told you for the 10000 times , i am not shedding anymore than i have previously,


 lol i give up.

----------


## gutted

> so how is that the other members got results on trx2 w/o this combo or people on the combo arent seeing the timeline you did?
> 
> its simple really, everyones different


 
lol ok. keep me up to date on how it goes with the saw palmetto and the combo. make *sure* you state your on andorgen blockers when you post.

----------


## Jcm800

> im taking 9grams, and i find its more than enough.
> 
> If your not growing hair and nails like lightning speed. then you need to up the dose, you *WILL* notice this effect all over the body at 9grams.
> 
> If you are already noticing this effect, then there is nothing more to do than wait it out, and let the hairs cycle through.
> 
> you can try 12grams for a few weeks to see how you get on.


 
I'm growing nails at a rapid rate, existing hair too actually. May as well leave as is then

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

I keep choking on these pills.

Jesus.

----------


## Jcm800

> I keep choking on these pills.
> 
> Jesus.


 Screw the pills they nearly killed me. Use the capsules instead.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Screw the pills they nearly killed me. Use the capsules instead.


 Can you link me to them

----------


## StayThick

Gutted, are you taking the Trx2, MSM, and VitC pills all at the same time?
For example in the AM all at the same time or spread out through the day.

How is everyone taking these?

----------


## Jcm800

> Can you link me to them


 http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B000...dir_mdp_mobile

This is the kind i take.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, are you taking the Trx2, MSM, and VitC pills all at the same time?
> For example in the AM all at the same time or spread out through the day.
> 
> How is everyone taking these?


 i take trx2 in the afternoon, and msm 9grams with c in the night a couple hours later.

----------


## bananana

lol guys. lets keep this thread somewhat useful, and report real PROGRESS or REGRESS. Not just random "my d1ck is bigger than yours chatter"  :Smile: 

Anyways - what I can say for myself:

I use 8 grams of msm and at least 1.5 gram vit c + drinking pure orange juice whenever i get the chance.  :Smile: 
This is *THE ONLY* regimen which *REDUCED ITCH* and *OIL* output. Period.

(and I've tried EVERYTHING - I mean it)

I just went with my nails through my scalp and I can't "scoop" ANY oil, before there were shovels of it. Almost literary. The itch is much lower also. 

I wash my hair every 4-5 days, cause it doesnt get oily till day 3-4. (maybe I should do it more often? What do you guys think?)

I think that is a (bigtime) sign of stabilisation. Now I'm actually looking to get some regrowth around the temples and increase in overall density. As I said I'll buy a whole bunch of this, dilute it in water and get like a 10&#37; liquid solution. I plan to dermaroll my scalp, then spray this on (instead of rubbing it in - not practical). 

I'll provide results.

Regarding msm/vitc - there are bunch of reports online its doing magic on hair growth so I wouldnt say this is a snake oil or placebo.

----------


## Cob984

guys i cant find OPTI MSM that delivers to india where i am at the moment, i am running out, anyone know where i can find internationally shipped MSM?

----------


## 2020

Have you people ever tried taking glutathione directly instead of taking massive doses of MSM which convert to god knows what...

----------


## Buy The Ticket

I'm now exactly 7 weeks in to this regime (following it religiously) and unless I'm imagining it I'm pretty sure my shed is right down, my 'itch' is almost non-exist ant and my hair & nails are growing FAST...

I realise how irresponsible it would be to give false hope, but I have to be honest and say I'm excited about this...

As I mentioned in my first post, I used an Aminexil spray for 3 years due to the intensity of the mpb itch I had (it was the only thing that seemed to help). The last couple of weeks have been the first time in those years that I have not had to use the spray to soothe my scalp... that can't be a coincidence.

Will report back here in another few weeks. Here's to hope...

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> Have you people ever tried taking glutathione directly instead of taking massive doses of MSM which convert to god knows what...


 What do you mean? MSM I thought was completely safe in large doses?

----------


## gutted

> What do you mean? MSM I thought was completely safe in large doses?


 if MSM is unsafe then so is garlic and onions which also contain sulfur

----------


## 2020

> What do you mean? MSM I thought was completely safe in large doses?


 It probably is sure but if raising glutathione is the main goal here due to it being lower in balding scalps, then why not take glutathione directly? Why MSM?

----------


## gutted

> It probably is sure but if raising glutathione is the main goal here due to it being lower in balding scalps, then why not take glutathione directly? Why MSM?


 how do you know this works because of the boost in glutathione? its likley, but not 100% sure that its because of the boost.

taking gluathione directly is also poorly absorbed through the body, you are better off using supplements which help produce it directly or patches which claim to boost it. There are many things which can do this. MSM+C is one such thing.

the *key* here probably has to do with boosting sulphur levels inside the body.

----------


## bananana

> It probably is sure but if raising glutathione is the main goal here due to it being lower in balding scalps, then why not take glutathione directly? Why MSM?


 Ok, is that the goal? Gutted? 

Is there a cheaper and more effective way of doing that?

You seem to provoce with the question but dont give the answer....

----------


## gutted

> Ok, is that the goal? Gutted? 
> 
> Is there a cheaper and more effective way of doing that?


 there are many ways to do it -> http://www.livestrong.com/article/34...t-glutathione/

http://www.lifewave.com/yage.asp

i cant be certain its because of the glutathione boost but msm+C has been found in studies to boost it effeciently, its in the first post.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

taking 2 MSM and 2 vit C capsules?

3000 grams each, is dosage really important gutted?

----------


## gutted

> taking 2 MSM and 2 vit C capsules?
> 
> 3000 grams each, is dosage really important gutted?


 for the first few weeks to months taking a few grams would be benficial to start assimilating the sulphur, and then dropping to a personal minatenance dose should not be a problem - 3 or 6 grams msm.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> for the first few weeks to months taking a few grams would be benficial to start assimilating the sulphur, and then dropping to a personal minatenance dose should not be a problem - 3 or 6 grams msm.


 I will stick to 3k

----------


## 2020

Apparently all that's needed to produce glutathione are three things:

Vitamin D
Alpha-Lipoic Acid
NAC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutath...upplementation

all of them being extremely cheap products.

Remember that study about Vitamin D being a cure for baldness? Then they said that they had to make a new Vitamin D, a super Vitamin D and that might work. Vitamin D = Glutathione. Too bad you can't patent glutathione...



EDIT:

*Changes in glutathione content in human hair follicle keratinocytes as a function of age of donor: relation with glutathione dependent enzymes.*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19291050

???

----------


## Cob984

gutted, whats your opinion on folexen / equol - dht binder or something apparently not a blocker, thinking of starting it and dropping the sp to just one 120mg does every other day or drop it completely, oral sp makes me feel like crap , the only reason i take it is because i am terrified for my hair
is folexen a better sub?

----------


## gutted

> gutted, whats your opinion on folexen / equol - dht binder or something apparently not a blocker, thinking of starting it and dropping the sp to just one 120mg does every other day or drop it completely, oral sp makes me feel like crap , the only reason i take it is because i am terrified for my hair
> is folexen a better sub?


 i have the same view on all forms of androgen inhibition.

----------


## AgainstThis

Yo, been a month and then some on this regime.

I can say that it is working, without a doubt. Minimal shedding and the peach fuzz that previously went nowhere is now growing into full, real hair. The results, whilst not groundbreaking, are definitely worth it, since the overall appearance my hair has gotten is one of a nice, thick NW3, as opposed to the strawy, shitty, going to hell NW3 I was before. I'll keep going, I'm curious to see where I am after 3 or 6 months on this.

Something is DEFINITELY working.

Plus, I've now got such pretty nails  :Big Grin:

----------


## Cob984

> Yo, been a month and then some on this regime.
> 
> I can say that it is working, without a doubt. Minimal shedding and the peach fuzz that previously went nowhere is now growing into full, real hair. The results, whilst not groundbreaking, are definitely worth it, since the overall appearance my hair has gotten is one of a nice, thick NW3, as opposed to the strawy, shitty, going to hell NW3 I was before. I'll keep going, I'm curious to see where I am after 3 or 6 months on this.
> 
> Something is DEFINITELY working.
> 
> Plus, I've now got such pretty nails


 you using this with anything else? did you drop whatever you were on previously and experience a shed?

----------


## MrBlonde

I am almost two months on this program now and my itch has virtually gone,  I would say it has 10% reduction left before being fully quashed.

I have recently noticed a slight reduction in shedding which is good but its not all positive.  My hair has gotten so thin in those two months and looks much worse then when I started.  I shed mostly at the hairline and I'm not sure if the reduction in shedding is down to this program or that my lastest stint of mbp shedding has gotten through as much hair as it can. Tthats how much I've lost.  I can confirm I was shedding before starting this program so maybe its helped stop it.  Tbh I can't be sure.

My hair feels dry, brittle and straw like as others have reported.  My side and back feels and looks unaffected by this program.  I may have noticed a slight reduction in shedding at the back, thats about the only change, it doesn't feel brittle or straw like as the top does.

I am going to stick with this and am holding out for the signs of regrowth and density increase that gutted mentioned as I have seen some of his key indicators come to pass.  

I would like to ask you gutted did you hair get super thin up top early on?  

Did you get the same dry straw like hair some of us are experiencing?

You mentioned you have a normal shedding pattern now ie where shedding and regrowth levels balance out.  Is this all over or at the hairline? 

 Is your hairline still recedding?  if so does it have a good regrowth/shed balance meaning you maintain there?  

Its all about the hairline for me as I use it to cover a scar and I have a big forehead and temples.  My hairline hairs are 6inches and when the shed my loss is super visible.  I look pretty bad now but am going to stick it out.

I am hoping all of this is the storm before the clam and I come through this tough patch into a thickening and regrowth phase.  I am wearing hats a lot now at work now to cover up things.  Gutted mentioned a reduction in shedding at 3 months, the thing is I dont think I can afford another 2 weeks of loss, especially on my right temple  Then again I have no choice but to ride this out but in my heart of hearts I can't see myself regrowing in this area as the temples are the hardest place to regain. If I cant I will have lost out to mpb.  If I can stabalise the rest of my head I would rebuild the hairline with a HT but I will only do that if the rest shows improvement.  Getting my hairline filled in only to shed behind it would make for one freaky head of hair.

I realise I am repeating myself and earlier posts but hence is the nature of these forumn, we use them as a shoulder to cry on I guess because I dont talk to anyone about my hairloss and we all seem to constantly jump on any good/bad news someeone else has.  What caused this that etc etc?

Ok thats it, update/rant over, sorry for repeating myself but I got nothing else to do but keep up this program and vent.

----------


## Cob984

im exactly in your boat mr blonde, my hair is unrecognizable now i dont know where its gone, its thinning like crazy and its been about 7+ weeks for me too, i dont think i can hold out much longer so im adding the saw palmetto just once a day to feel more mentally at ease, I hope you are successful since it might give me more confidence later on

----------


## gutted

> I would like to ask you gutted did you hair get super thin up top early on?  
> 
> Did you get the same dry straw like hair some of us are experiencing?
> 
> You mentioned you have a normal shedding pattern now ie where shedding and regrowth levels balance out.  Is this all over or at the hairline? 
> 
>  Is your hairline still recedding?  if so does it have a good regrowth/shed balance meaning you maintain there?  
> 
> Its all about the hairline for me as I use it to cover a scar and I have a big forehead and temples.  My hairline hairs are 6inches and when the shed my loss is super visible.  I look pretty bad now but am going to stick it out.


 hi to answer your questions.

no when i started the combo, there was no signs of thinning. Its only when i started otehr supplements that caused the thinning. That has slowly reversed itself over the last few months.

yes i have a normal shedding pattern and this is all over, hairline included. Its normal to lose hairs.

No my hairline has stopped receeding, there has been no recession for over a year now. Im confident its staying put. I know on the right side i can see density improving, i also expect this to happen on the left although in a few months time.

you may be shedding if you dropped any androgen inhibiting substances recently or it may just be mpb, although these hairs will return a few months down the line. The reduction in itch is a positive sign. The itch indicates the end of the hair before going into permanent dormancy. Although staying n msm prevents this from happening.

As for the dry strawy texture, that may be because of the decreased oil output that msm has caused. The oil acts as a natrual conditioner hence why it may feel dry and strawy. You should use a conditioner of some sort to counteract this.

You need to stay on it for many more months before you experience the synchronisation of shed rate vs growth rate.

Also bear in mind if people decide to use/introduce anything else such as androgen inhibiting substances in addition to the combo after being on it for 3 or 6+ months, the timeline resets. 
You need to go through the *whole* timeline again if you ever decide to drop the androgen inhibiting substances later down the line. Being on it for 9 months already or whatever has no real merit anymore, you disrupt the cycle/timeline.

----------


## bananana

> im exactly in your boat mr blonde, my hair is unrecognizable now i dont know where its gone, its thinning like crazy and its been about 7+ weeks for me too, i dont think i can hold out much longer so im adding the saw palmetto just once a day to feel more mentally at ease, I hope you are successful since it might give me more confidence later on


 well, i dont know how you guys get such a drastic change in hair looks? my hair hasnt changed (if it is its for the better...), just the itch and oil stopped...

you cob984 - you wont achieve ANYTHING at all with adding sp, you'll just probably f*ck up msm's work. I'm sorry but you didnt go bald in 2 weeks, you went bald in 10 years - so give this OR ANY TREATMENT AT LEAST 1 YEAR before making rush decisions.

I'm sorry but thats the way it is! Please guys - be patient WITH ANYTHING YOU TRY. 

120 mg of sp is NOTHING, i used to take 1500 - 3000 mg and it DIDNT stop my itch and it DIDNT lower my oil output. 

My 2 cents.

----------


## gutted

> well, i dont know how you guys get such a drastic change in hair looks?


 there not going to experience any visible changes yet. They have to stay on it for many more months before visibile changes occur. What is occuring now to thier hair is down to mpb, NOT becaue of the combo use. The combo will sort mpb out.

Also as for cob984, i cant say for sure the timeline applies to him at all. Hes not going to witness ANY of the results (visibile or inivisible results) others may have experienced, because of his sp use.

----------


## Cob984

im not using sp? i have taken 3 capsules last week, apart from that i have been off it for almost 5 weeks now, anyone in their right mind know 3 capsules of 120 mg is nothing,

i am still using revivogen and thats it thought, no internal blockers, i clearly remember you saying there was a risk with rev but it should be ok otherwise

and what a load of bs? you are comparing the whole shed rate v growth rate thing, using sp vs fin? you have got to be shitting me, that too 120 mg, you realize how insignificant that is?

and banana yes my hair has gotten worse big time in the last 1.5 months, i am a very aggressive thinner, maybe the hair got dependent on the sp so the resultant spike completely messed stuff up ( btw ur probably talking 1500-3000 of fruit not extract, i use extract)

----------


## Ginkosama

Cob, Revivogen is a waste of time and money. Plus if it does no direct harm, it makes your hair greasy and facilitates itching.
Kind regards.

----------


## gutted

> im not using sp? i have taken 3 capsules last week, apart from that i have been off it for almost 5 weeks now, anyone in their right mind know 3 capsules of 120 mg is nothing,
> 
> i am still using revivogen and thats it thought, no internal blockers, i clearly remember you saying there was a risk with rev but it should be ok otherwise


 ok. No that shouldnt have much of an effect but you need to decide what you want to use and stick with it. No going back and forth. Your posts dont make it clear what you are doing.

as i have stated hair "shedding" is to be expected when you drop an androgen inhibiting substance. You need to wait 3 months before things balance out for you. After the 3 months is when the timeline for results apply to you.

----------


## Cob984

> ok. No that shouldnt have much of an effect but you need to decide what you want to use and stick with it. No going back and forth. Your posts dont make it clear what you are doing.
> 
> as i have stated hair "shedding" is to be expected when you drop an androgen inhibiting substance. You need to wait 3 months before things balance out for you. After the 3 months is when the timeline for results apply to you.


 I know im all over the place, im a mess, im just using rev cause i have some supplies, might drop it too after im done

i dont know what to do, i just freak out everyday looking in the mirror and then think maybe i should use the sp, my hair is not improving, its worsening, im hoping this stabilization comes soon because its 7 weeks now and i dont see it

----------


## Ginkosama

Gutted, I bought MSM powder like you.
How do you take it ? Just shove it in your mouth with some water ? Cause it really tastes terrible.

And how much is three grams ? Half a tee spoon ? A third of a tea spoon ?

----------


## gutted

> I know im all over the place, im a mess, im just using rev cause i have some supplies, might drop it too after im done
> 
> i dont know what to do, i just freak out everyday looking in the mirror and then think maybe i should use the sp, my hair is not improving, its worsening, im hoping this stabilization comes soon because its 7 weeks now and i dont see it


 hair does not improve in a few days, hair improves in weeks to months. Your NOT going to gain the visible results fast, read over the timeline of results.

You already stated in your previous posts you dont "shed hairs" so i dont understand what your problem is? if you dont shed hairs thats good! Although i suspect you are shedding many hairs due to dropping sp. These sheds will calm down at the 3 month mark.

just stay on it consistently and ride it out. This is a long term treatment.

----------


## Cob984

well i am shedding some hair obv, but its not as bad as it has been previously,

it just looks very thin and limp, and its worsening, very similar to what mr.blonde is going through, my hair is looking thinner everyday, i dont know thats possible but its happening and my family members concur so i doubt im imagining it

----------


## gutted

> well i am shedding some hair obv, but its not as bad as it has been previously,
> 
> it just looks very thin and limp, and its worsening, very similar to what mr.blonde is going through, my hair is looking thinner everyday, i dont know thats possible but its happening and my family members concur so i doubt im imagining it


 drop the revivogen/sp and get on another shampoo, and just ride this out for a couple of months. stop going back and forth, this will worsen your sheds.

----------


## Cob984

gutted, just wanted to check, you too experienced rapid gains on sp initially right?

one of the reasons of my impatience is the beautiful sp results for the first few months which basicaly reinstated all my hair overnight has led me to start doubting stuff if i dont see results within weeks

----------


## gutted

> gutted, just wanted to check, you too experienced rapid gains on sp initially right?
> 
> one of the reasons of my impatience is the beautiful sp results for the first few months which basicaly reinstated all my hair overnight has led me to start doubting stuff if i dont see results within weeks


 yes this was a few years ago. The stuff even bought my hairloss to virtually 0 in a week! it starts to lose this effect in a matter of 3/4 weeks. which is what will happen with you.

----------


## 2020

gutted do you have any recent before and after pictures?

----------


## MrBlonde

> hi to answer your questions.
> 
> no when i started the combo, there was no signs of thinning. Its only when i started otehr supplements that caused the thinning. That has slowly reversed itself over the last few months.
> 
> yes i have a normal shedding pattern and this is all over, hairline included. Its normal to lose hairs.
> 
> No my hairline has stopped receeding, there has been no recession for over a year now. Im confident its staying put. I know on the right side i can see density improving, i also expect this to happen on the left although in a few months time.
> 
> you may be shedding if you dropped any androgen inhibiting substances recently or it may just be mpb, although these hairs will return a few months down the line. *The reduction in itch is a positive sign. The itch indicates the end of the hair before going into permanent dormancy.* Although staying n msm prevents this from happening.
> ...


 I'm sorry gutted but I fail to see how this is a positive sign.  Did you mean temporary dormancy before the hair regrows stronger?

To me permanent dormancy would mean they are never coming back.

----------


## MrBlonde

> gutted do you have any recent before and after pictures?


 Hows that thread about your regime coming along 2020?  The one about vitiman A, niacin etc that you reckon inhibts more dht than fin

----------


## 2020

> Hows that thread about your regime coming along 2020?  The one about vitiman A, niacin etc that you reckon inhibts more dht than fin


 got bored plus I'm changing my regimen too. Will be adding Vitamin C + real and massive doses of Glutathione which I'm suspecting is low for some of us. If MSM works for some of you, then Glutathione will be even better

About TRX2: wouldn't replacing it with high doses of niacinamide be the same? I can't take something unless I know what exactly it does

----------


## Jcm800

AgainstThis - lets have a picture update please chap, link your first set from the pretty much defunct trx2 thread, to present day pics if you'd be so kind? From what you're saying, changes should be visible..

----------


## gutted

> gutted do you have any recent before and after pictures?


 yes i have pictures, which i use to compare progress but im not going to post them on here...

----------


## gutted

> I'm sorry gutted but I fail to see how this is a positive sign.  Did you mean temporary dormancy before the hair regrows stronger?
> 
> To me permanent dormancy would mean they are never coming back.


 in my experince when i notice a severe itch. (a pretty severe one) the hairs fall out in that region of the scalp and never come back. Its very very important to get the itch under control.

i meant the positive sign is the *reduction* in itch, this makes permanent dormancy pretty much impossible.

----------


## Cob984

gutted, whats your opinion on mrblonde's rapid hair thinning inspite of not being on dht blockers previously??

my hair looks horrible even with  conditioner, its so thin, i am seeing scalp everywhere, could it be msm unnaturally boosting growth which compromises on hair quality ?

----------


## Irishamerica

> gutted, whats your opinion on mrblonde's rapid hair thinning inspite of not being on dht blockers previously??
> 
> my hair looks horrible even with  conditioner, its so thin, i am seeing scalp everywhere, could it be msm unnaturally boosting growth which compromises on hair quality ?


 The MSM wouldnt unnaturally boost growth its a vital nutrient that are bodies lack becasue of natural cooking methods i think you will find when taking it propely it has numerous helth benafits not just hairgrowth . I have had an oily scalp and itch and well has oily face since i was 15 in which hasnnt passed even though i am now 27 ...The msm combp has sevely cut down the oil produciton on my face/hair .I am no longer "greasey".  The large amount of oil production on the skin collect together and become infected with bacteria this is what causes acne .

The same goes for the scalp now that oil production has been minimised less bactria will form at the roots which is thought to contribute to hairloss . 
Not saying that  this will be the god scent gift for all hairloss suffers but I believe it surely helps people in the early stages of hairloss .


My routine is the combo with reganpure dr/nr  twice a week and oan organic  sulfate/parfan nautral shampoo on other days .

----------


## gutted

> gutted, whats your opinion on mrblonde's rapid hair thinning inspite of not being on dht blockers previously??
> 
> my hair looks horrible even with  conditioner, its so thin, i am seeing scalp everywhere, could it be msm unnaturally boosting growth which compromises on hair quality ?


 MrBlonde's hair is thinning because i dont recall him treating his hairloss with anything until now. His thinning is pureley down to mpb progression. If your not treating your mpb its pretty obvious you will thin out/lose hair. Now that hes on the combo, at 12 months he may see some visible results.

msm wont cause any detrimental effects on your hair. If you do notice an increase in "shedding" this is NOT "hair loss" just your hair shedding to return a few months down the line. Which is what happens to all of us, even those who do not bald.

the fact that this solves increased oil production, which is *also androgen driven*, is enough to put faith into msm and msm only WITHOUT using dht blockers (dht blockers can reduce oil too but the effect is temporary). 

Ive had oil production practically cease, i have no more scalp oil what so ever.

----------


## ovoxo

gutted what do you think of taking msm like for example 3g in the morning then 3g afternoon and 3g in the evening, or you should really take 9g all together?

----------


## gutted

> gutted what do you think of taking msm like for example 3g in the morning then 3g afternoon and 3g in the evening, or you should really take 9g all together?


 it shouldnt be an issue. You should make sure you take it WITH the vitamin C.

----------


## Jcm800

> it shouldnt be an issue. You should make sure you take it WITH the vitamin C.


 Hmm I take msm am and pm, but only in the pm with vit c, perhaps I'm going wrong that way then.

----------


## gutted

> Hmm I take msm am and pm, but only in the pm with vit c, perhaps I'm going wrong that way then.


 no the sign that its working is increased nail and hair growth. since youve already noted this effect, i presume your gaining the adequate amount. Although its best to take the vitC with the msm.

----------


## Jcm800

> no the sign that its working is increased nail and hair growth. since youve already noted this effect, i presume your gaining the adequate amount. Although its best to take the vitC with the msm.


 Fair comment. My nails are strong and my existing hair is a mop so ill assume I'm on the right track, just wish I could see signs of regrowth, but early days really

----------


## 2020

This study claims that Glutathione levels decline in your scalp as we age:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2929555/

could it be that baldness is the result of that?


Next month or so when I''l have my finances in order, I'll start taking these:

http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htm.../products.html

Lypo-SphericTM Vitamin C --- which is equivalent to about 10,000 mg of real vitamin C which goes straight to your cells and is fat soluble -> lasts all day

Lypo-SphericTM GSH --- larges doses of real active glutathione. No amount of MSM will ever come to close to making that much glutathione.


yes, it's ~$120/month but we'll see if it's worth it  :Cool:

----------


## gutted

> Fair comment. My nails are strong and my existing hair is a mop so ill assume I'm on the right track, just wish I could see signs of regrowth, but early days really


 If your maintaining thats an acheivement in itself. If you ahve diffuse areas you'll see them fill in with time.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, I bought MSM powder like you.
> How do you take it ? Just shove it in your mouth with some water ? Cause it really tastes terrible.
> 
> And how much is three grams ? Half a tee spoon ? A third of a tea spoon ?


 mine are in capsules so i cant taste them. Yes with water and vitc. Im not sure, you would need to measure it somehow.

----------


## RisingFist

Hey gutted I've seen some of your posts on immortalhair...I've been taking low dose msm for the past 2 months. I've decided to up my dose to 6 grams. I also take 1 gram of pure way vit c. 

I also take other supplements that I hope will help rather the. Get in the way. They are curcumin/reversatrol, ecklonia cava extract, vit A and D in tandem. Vit k2 big doses for calcification. B vitamins, krill oil, Quercetin, magnesium citrate, selenium and will probably start iodine.

I'm also trying to deal with heavy metal detox which will take a couple of months.

I'm gonna take some supplements to increase glutathione production as well. I have had diffuse hair loss for a couple of years now and my temples and sides are taking a beating.

----------


## Jcm800

> If your maintaining thats an acheivement in itself. If you ahve diffuse areas you'll see them fill in with time.


 I am shedding, but don't see much in the shower at all really.  Hairline IS thinning, but it's had 14 month's of minox applied to it which isn't supporting it now (if it ever did) In fairness, the dread shed ive anticipated since quitting it around 3 months back still hasn't hit like i expected. I'm hoping it won't now, and that perhaps this combo has abated it to some degree.  

I DO see a few mini hairs on a slick centre parting area that has been sparse for a very long time, hoping this is a sign of activity..

----------


## gutted

> Hey gutted I've seen some of your posts on immortalhair...I've been taking low dose msm for the past 2 months. I've decided to up my dose to 6 grams. I also take 1 gram of pure way vit c. 
> 
> I also take other supplements that I hope will help rather the. Get in the way. They are curcumin/reversatrol, ecklonia cava extract, vit A and D in tandem. Vit k2 big doses for calcification. B vitamins, krill oil, Quercetin, magnesium citrate, selenium and will probably start iodine.
> 
> I'm also trying to deal with heavy metal detox which will take a couple of months.
> 
> I'm gonna take some supplements to increase glutathione production as well. I have had diffuse hair loss for a couple of years now and my temples and sides are taking a beating.


 hi, great. good luck with it, but i believe all of that isnt necassary. Although there may be the possibility that they interact with efficacy, you should perhaps think about dropping some of those in the future if you dont notice any change in invisible as well as visible results, and restart on the msm/C alone and follow the timeline from start to finish.

----------


## gutted

> I am shedding, but don't see much in the shower at all really.  Hairline IS thinning, but it's had 14 month's of minox applied to it which isn't supporting it now (if it ever did) In fairness, the dread shed ive anticipated since quitting it around 3 months back still hasn't hit like i expected. I'm hoping it won't now, and that perhaps this combo has abated it to some degree.  
> 
> I DO see a few mini hairs on a slick centre parting area that has been sparse for a very long time, hoping this is a sign of activity..


 its pretty normal to shed. The problem with mpb is the amount you shed, the more you shed the more thinning shows up because of density reduction. Once all hairs resynchronise (after time) you should expect more hair to be on the scalp than dormant which gives more density and reduces the appearence of diffuse thinning. 

You should notice a reduction in the next few months.

----------


## MrBlonde

I was thinking of trying this also

http://www.divineherbal.co.uk/

A couple of guys on the hairloss forums are getting results and its 100% natural and doesn't do anything DHT wise.

What do you guys reckon?  Will it hurt or help with this program.

----------


## RisingFist

> I was thinking of trying this also
> 
> http://www.divineherbal.co.uk/
> 
> A couple of guys on the hairloss forums are getting results and its 100% natural and doesn't do anything DHT wise.
> 
> What do you guys reckon?  Will it hurt or help with this program.


 I ordered this recently. Still hasn't shipped yet. I think if an oil treatment will work on someone then it's probably this one since it has so many oils. It's hard to believe the claims though. It says it stops shedding in 2 weeks and provides regrowth in 5 weeks which is pretty out there when it comes to hair cycles but then again didn't people notice some results with 5 weeks of that drug cetrezine

I think I need to cure my dandruff problem first and it's possible heavy metals has something to do with it.

----------


## ammin

I am going back on the MSM. I think the appearance of limp hair were caused by one of the following:

a) Abrupt thinning due to telogen effluvium. Have been the most depressed I have ever been in my adult life these last 6 months

b) Laser comb use- Could have caused asynchronisation of my hair cycles. Massive numbers of hair strands entering telogen concurrently. Is this possible Gutted?

c) Aggressive MPB, in which case I am f**cked . Professionally its the worst time for me to go through such drastic changes in my appearance.

Moving forward I plan to give up the laser comb. My regimen for the most part remains the same

FLuridil
Revivogen
TRX 2
Nizoral
MSM
Vit C
Vit D
B-Complex EOD

Should I add another growth factor, now that I have given up the laser comb?

I was thinking about adding Tricomin. Is it a powerful enough substitute for the laser comb. I dont want to add Rogaine , since I have read studies about its inhibition of collagen and it caused swelling around my ear lobes.

Could really use some ideas... GUtted, 2020, Highlander, Pate, Desmond, anyone?

----------


## ammin

I want to add that my thin hair isnt shedding. At all!!

----------


## Ginkosama

> I was thinking of trying this also
> 
> http://www.divineherbal.co.uk/
> 
> A couple of guys on the hairloss forums are getting results and its 100% natural and doesn't do anything DHT wise.
> 
> What do you guys reckon?  Will it hurt or help with this program.


 If I had a product that worked I definitely wouldn't make that kind of website that reminds of so many others scams.
"100 % satisfaction, here is is some broken science, here some moot pictures from thrilled customers".

Plus the list Nature VS Lab on the "how does it work" page is just a joke, I wonder how can this not alert you guys.

This is just another Revivogen.

----------


## bananana

> If I had a product that worked I definitely wouldn't make that kind of website that reminds of so many others scams.
> "100 % satisfaction, here is is some broken science, here some moot pictures from thrilled customers".
> 
> Plus the list Nature VS Lab on the "how does it work" page is just a joke, I wonder how can this not alert you guys.
> 
> This is just another Revivogen.


 Point taken, but im interested has someone had success with this?

That photo on the frontpage is outrageous!  :Big Grin: 
If that was true - I'd order $2000 worth of this stuff as of RIGHT NOW!

----------


## sizzlinghairs

@gutted, do you notice msm growing new body hair that wasn't there before? Or your current body hair growing longer then it normally would?

Or does it just grow faster?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> If I had a product that worked I definitely wouldn't make that kind of website that reminds of so many others scams.
> "100 % satisfaction, here is is some broken science, here some moot pictures from thrilled customers".
> 
> Plus the list Nature VS Lab on the "how does it work" page is just a joke, I wonder how can this not alert you guys.
> 
> This is just another Revivogen.


 http://www.*****************/interact...erbal-hair-oil

Someone has had success on hairloss talk.

----------


## gutted

> @gutted, do you notice msm growing new body hair that wasn't there before? Or your current body hair growing longer then it normally would?
> 
> Or does it just grow faster?


 
i did note tthe growth of new hair in the trx2 thread, initially i attributed it to trx2. So i really cant say for sure if its msm or not.

But one thing is for SURE with msm is all hair has grown longer than it normally has previously.

Ive noted my hair on my fingers growing in length upto half an inch! when it was merley a 1/8 of what it would normally grow to.

----------


## Ginkosama

> http://www.*****************/interact...erbal-hair-oil
> 
> Someone has had success on hairloss talk.


 Of course someone has.
But you also need to realise how easy it is to get members to try a new product.


Just create an account a few months before the operations, to make yourself knwon a lil', then create a new thread about you being surprised to find something that worked for you.
Express lukewarm feelings about it, saying that it may not be the cure but it definitely helped you and you just want to help the community because you got tired of minox/propecia too !
Act offended when someone calls bullshit but not too much, just act like a confident dude who actually doesn't care that much about your opinion cause he's not selling anything after all is he ?

This is just one step above the guy with 3 post claming his grand mother found the cure and he ll tell you for 50 bucks.

When you try a "brand new treatment" you need to scan :

-is the poster someone well known in the community ? Someone present on many forums, someone who has been around for years ?
-is there ANY science backing it ?
-is he recommending any brand in particular ?

If the answers are : YES / YES / NO --> this is great
If you have two out of three you might want to give it a shot.
Under that just don't. Look at how Folexen turned out.

----------


## bananana

> ...


 Totally agree with you. 

ps, I still have like 4 unopened jars of folexen, if someone wants to buy.  :Big Grin:

----------


## sizzlinghairs

@gutted, thanks. How long would you say it took for that to happen? I don't think I've noticed my hair growing longer then normal yet (maybe on my body, not my fingers tho). But having overly long hair on my fingers sounds pretty unnapealing.. You said you noticed this happening everywhere on your body for sure?

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

A couple questions...as I'm thinking of giving this a go...

I currently use rogaine(only on crown despite being a diffuse thinner) and nizoral(2x a week), is it in your opinion that this works against this treatment?

Looking at msm products, the most I can find in a single pill is 1500mg, so I'm guessing you take around 6 of these a day? Did you slowly build up to taking that much?

Also, how much Vit C are you taking?

Sorry if these are repeat questions, this is a long thread

----------


## Cob984

guys im making absolutely no progress on this regimen, for the first time i can see patches on dry hair which is very distressing, im continuing to thin and today when i applied my hair oil I shed 15-20 hairs as well, 
it has been close to 8 weeks on msm/vitc and i would have hoped i would atleast stabilize or improve, not seeing anything yet

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Cob, I really reccomend you do w.e it takes to find the $ to get on trx2. It stopped my hairloss essentially after 4-5 months of taking it

----------


## Cob984

> Cob, I really reccomend you do w.e it takes to find the $ to get on trx2. It stopped my hairloss essentially after 4-5 months of taking it


 Money is not the problem, ill go in debt for my hair i dont care

I am 5.5 wks into trx2 and 7.5 into msm/c, I am also munching 4 trx2 instead of the usual 3, when did you see your hair stabilizing on trx2? if iwait 4 months at this rate ill be screwed

----------


## sizzlinghairs

How long have you been off of Saw P? That will most definitely play a role as your hormones/androgen receptors need to re-stabilize to normal levels.

 I noticed like 3 months a stabilization of hairloss on trx2, but it had many ups and downs after that 3 months where I felt like it wasnt working. I have also been using hydrocortisone and miconazole nitrate on the hairline like everyday-every other day which I believe has contributed somewhat. But my crown stabilized just with trx2.

What else have you been taking or have dropped?

 I would strongly strongly reccomend using 1&#37; hydrocortisone to control your shedding. It is a very solid anti inflammatory. Another thing is I would also try time-released Vit c if you arent using it. I dont know if it makes a difference, but it would seem like it could.

----------


## Cob984

> How long have you been off of Saw P? That will most definitely play a role as your hormones/androgen receptors need to re-stabilize to normal levels.
> 
>  I noticed like 3 months a stabilization of hairloss on trx2, but it had many ups and downs after that 3 months where I felt like it wasnt working. I have also been using hydrocortisone and miconazole nitrate on the hairline like everyday-every other day which I believe has contributed somewhat. But my crown stabilized just with trx2.
> 
> What else have you been taking or have dropped?
> 
>  I would strongly strongly reccomend using 1% hydrocortisone to control your shedding. It is a very solid anti inflammatory. Another thing is I would also try time-released Vit c if you arent using it. I dont know if it makes a difference, but it would seem like it could.


 I dropped oral sp when i started trx2, about 5 weeks, but i still put sp extract/rev on my hair topically, and i just started using the topical ceritizine experiment 1ml a day

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Not following the cet experiment, but I did hear that having it dissolve properly was an issue for people and that some also had shedding with it.

Anyways, keep on the trx2 and cet, but I urge you to go pick up some 1% scalpicin or anything with 1% hydro in it and see if it can help control your loss.

----------


## Cob984

i thought my shedding had reduced but for some reason it came back with a vengeance today, i dont know why,
im debating whether to discontinue the cet, its only been 10 days though

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Coming up to 2 weeks, not feeling any shedding like cob is. Actually it is hard to say if this is doing anything at all.

2 x Vit c = 3000mg
2  x msm = 3000 mg.

Hair does feel healthy though

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Coming up to 2 weeks, not feeling any shedding like cob is. Actually it is hard to say if this is doing anything at all.
> 
> 2 x Vit c = 3000mg
> 2  x msm = 3000 mg.
> 
> Hair does feel healthy though


 And to add, the back of my head where the hair normally feels REALLY flat, seem to feel thicker. 

too early to jump onto conclusions, but I think this is what gutted may be talking about when the hair 'seems' thicker.

----------


## gutted

> @gutted, thanks. How long would you say it took for that to happen? I don't think I've noticed my hair growing longer then normal yet (maybe on my body, not my fingers tho). But having overly long hair on my fingers sounds pretty unnapealing.. You said you noticed this happening everywhere on your body for sure?


 yes, you should notice increased hair growth within 1 to 3 weeks through out the body, i guess it may depend on how much msm you take too.

----------


## gutted

> And to add, the back of my head where the hair normally feels REALLY flat, seem to feel thicker. 
> 
> too early to jump onto conclusions, but I think this is what gutted may be talking about when the hair 'seems' thicker.


 2 weeks is not long enough. give it a few months. Although early invisible signs (decreased itches/oil) are noticeable in a matter of weeks, if you have previously been aware of any.

----------


## gutted

> A couple questions...as I'm thinking of giving this a go...
> 
> I currently use rogaine(only on crown despite being a diffuse thinner) and nizoral(2x a week), is it in your opinion that this works against this treatment?


 Rogaine MAY not, but i dont reccomend using that at all. 
Nizoral is overrated and yes can have an impact in the visible results.




> Looking at msm products, the most I can find in a single pill is 1500mg, so I'm guessing you take around 6 of these a day? Did you slowly build up to taking that much?
> 
> Also, how much Vit C are you taking?
> 
> Sorry if these are repeat questions, this is a long thread


 yes initially, i did slowly build up on it and have now pretty much got used to 9grams. I may consider lowering sometime in the future to 6 or 3 grams.

I get most of my vit c from juices and fruit so sometimes i take 2 pills x 500mg VitC. Sometimes i supplement with 2 grams when i dont gain through juices and fruit. 4 grams is more than enough.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

> 2 weeks is not long enough. give it a few months. Although early invisible signs (decreased itches/oil) are noticeable in a matter of weeks, if you have previously been aware of any.


 I have been on the msm for a month so I think I should be noticing the increased body hair growth, but I dont see any major changes. I am also taking 6 grams msm, sometimes 9. Do you think some people just need a lot higher of a dose, like 12 grams, to notice body hair growth? Or maybe some peoples body hair follicles max out at a certain point and dont have capacity to grow longer? (what Im really hoping for  :Smile:  ) I am already kinda hairy and the thought of becoming chewbaca seems like it would really repel the women

----------


## gutted

> I have been on the msm for a month so I think I should be noticing the increased body hair growth, but I dont see any major changes. I am also taking 6 grams msm, sometimes 9. Do you think some people just need a lot higher of a dose, like 12 grams, to notice body hair growth? Or maybe some peoples body hair follicles max out at a certain point and dont have capacity to grow longer? (what Im really hoping for  ) I am already kinda hairy and the thought of becoming chewbaca seems like it would really repel the women


 You have to give hair time to grow, if its not given time to grow you wont know how longer the hairs would get. The msm only extends the growth of existing hairs, by how much? it probably depends on the individual.
When i tried 3 and 6 grams i noticed faster growth throughout within 3 weeks to a month, as time went on they grew longer. 
Perhaps trying 9 grams for a week may give differring results. Be sure to take the vit C WITH the msm.

I would rather be hairy and not bald than not hairy and bald! Theres always hair removal for you to look into.

----------


## Jcm800

Does it make any difference if I take trx with my msm?  I doubt it, does anyone else?

----------


## gutted

> Does it make any difference if I take trx with my msm?  I doubt it, does anyone else?


 dunno, i dont, i take it seprateley.

----------


## Cob984

anyone willing to ship to me some OptiMSM DRS Best? the ones i have access to are either overpriced as hell or horrible quality. much appreciated, need shipping to india

----------


## Cob984

btw has anyone else been noticing weight gain especially around the stomach area from msm? i feel really bloated even when im hungry which is strange and just thought im dreaming it but there are other reports on the net too, 
i really hope i dont have to drop this, maybe i should tone this down to 6mg and then see

----------


## bananana

> btw has anyone else been noticing weight gain especially around the stomach area from msm? i feel really bloated even when im hungry which is strange and just thought im dreaming it but there are other reports on the net too, 
> i really hope i dont have to drop this, maybe i should tone this down to 6mg and then see


 Well, I've got fat in the last 2,3 months. I wouldnt call it bloated - just fat.  :Smile: 

But I suppose its got to do with eating out every day (2am mcd snacks) and such. Anyways, I've started doing excercise so I hope it will go to normal soon.
I'm around 188 cm and 100 kg.

----------


## Jcm800

Wouldn't say I've gained any noticeable weight and I'd expect to as I've quit smoking. 

Gutted, all the vit c tabs in my local Holland and Barrett contain rosehips, no idea if that's likely to interfere with this combo, have you?! Where do you get yours?

----------


## Jcm800

Double post sorry, please delete.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Wouldn't say I've gained any noticeable weight and I'd expect to as I've quit smoking. 
> 
> Gutted, all the vit c tabs in my local Holland and Barrett contain rosehips, no idea if that's likely to interfere with this combo, have you?! Where do you get yours?


 Tesco's sell 1000mg Vit C tablets.

----------


## Jcm800

> Tesco's sell 1000mg Vit C tablets.


 Cheers ill have a look

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Nails are growing quickly, and hair feels softer.

Aside from this - nothing else to report.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> 2 weeks is not long enough. give it a few months. Although early invisible signs (decreased itches/oil) are noticeable in a matter of weeks, if you have previously been aware of any.


 My scalp is never itchy anyway - oil - hard to tell.

----------


## Cob984

> Nails are growing quickly, and hair feels softer.
> 
> Aside from this - nothing else to report.


 very similar for me, another few days and i shall be a full 8 weeks in, i am seeing no improvement in terms of mpb, i continue to regress and thin, if i dont see atleast stabilization in a week or so im back on the dht bandwagon,
i will still use this treatment but in addition to blocking dht

screw sides, id rather be fat and have a lower libido then lose my hair

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> very similar for me, another few days and i shall be a full 8 weeks in, i am seeing no improvement in terms of mpb, i continue to regress and thin, if i dont see atleast stabilization in a week or so im back on the dht bandwagon,
> i will still use this treatment but in addition to blocking dht
> 
> screw sides, id rather be fat and have a lower libido then lose my hair


 When did you start to thin?

----------


## Cob984

> When did you start to thin?


 september 2011 noticed first signs of mpb, started taking sp in nov, absolutely in control and then some till about april, sp starts losing its affect then but the deterioration is slow, still an ok set of hair,

since dropping sp 6 weeks ago in absolute freefall, can now only wear the combover as a hairstyle

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> september 2011 noticed first signs of mpb, started taking sp in nov, absolutely in control and then some till about april, sp starts losing its affect then but the deterioration is slow, still an ok set of hair,
> 
> since dropping sp 6 weeks ago in absolute freefall, can now only wear the combover as a hairstyle


 Have a feeling that dropping the SP caused it.

Afterall it does change DHT levels in the blood. Probably has been an upregulation of it after dropping it.

----------


## Cob984

> Have a feeling that dropping the SP caused it.
> 
> Afterall it does change DHT levels in the blood. Probably has been an upregulation of it after dropping it.


 yea i agree, but you can see why im anxious, i mean will i really ever recover what im losing now and wait 6 months? by then i would have lost loads and maybe on a path of no return,

anyway if i see stabilization ill refrain from tinkering but im not seeing any, 
When i do get back on dht blocking i plan to use the keratene product range, no more sp for me,
start with topical shampoo+serum and if that doesnt work then onto the capsules

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yea i agree, but you can see why im anxious, i mean will i really ever recover what im losing now and wait 6 months? by then i would have lost loads and maybe on a path of no return,
> 
> anyway if i see stabilization ill refrain from tinkering but im not seeing any, 
> When i do get back on dht blocking i plan to use the keratene product range, no more sp for me,
> start with topical shampoo+serum and if that doesnt work then onto the capsules


 You have to remember Gutted's MSM and Vit C is not clinically proven; personally I am expecting health benefits more then anything.

----------


## Cob984

> You have to remember Gutted's MSM and Vit C is not clinically proven; personally I am expecting health benefits more then anything.


 what else are you using then for your hair specifically?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> what else are you using then for your hair specifically?


 Nothing.

Which is why I am giving Gutted's regime a chance.

----------


## doke

Hi Gutted what about using trx2 with a topical msm such as xenna  topical     182 which is not that expensive and lowers dht as well?

----------


## Irishamerica

> what else are you using then for your hair specifically?


 what kind pf sp were you on ...oral or topical ?

----------


## Cob984

> what kind pf sp were you on ...oral or topical ?


 both, im still on topical in the revivogen mould, i dont think it really works though, the oral was what working for me to an extent

----------


## gutted

> Wouldn't say I've gained any noticeable weight and I'd expect to as I've quit smoking. 
> 
> Gutted, all the vit c tabs in my local Holland and Barrett contain rosehips, no idea if that's likely to interfere with this combo, have you?! Where do you get yours?


 i dont think it would. I get mine from bodykind.

----------


## gutted

> Hi Gutted what about using trx2 with a topical msm such as xenna  topical     182 which is not that expensive and lowers dht as well?


 lowering dht messes up msm's work. Upregulation is something that msm/C cant tackle neither can fin for that matter.

using a topical dht blocker does have its advantages as to limiting upregulation but is NOT fool proof. 
Either way blocking dht is not good for hair regardless of what you might have been taught, NOW *limiting/reducing* dht in a balanced manner is something you *should* be looking at, although this is pretty much impossible to do.

If your using dht blockers you may expect the invisible results, dont expect visible results.

If you drop dht blocking, allow 3 weeks to 3 months for your body to return to normal after that follow the timeline of 12 months.

----------


## doke

xenna topical    is msm anyone tried it as its in usa.

----------


## bananana

Guys, I have something else to report since using msm combo -
I've lost WRINKLES!

I don't know for 100% if its related exclusively to msm (I believe so), but I've had wrinkles around my mouth, one long wrinkle on my forehead (which is almost 90% gone!) and a lot of very small wrinkles around my eyes - they are all 80% gone!

I play guitar and I dont use pick therefore I broke my nails all the time before - but now they're thick as tooth! I didn't break a nail since using msm!

Gutted, I just wish to say thanks for this info, I can really see the change on my body.

----------


## gutted

> Guys, I have something else to report since using msm combo -
> I've lost WRINKLES!
> 
> I don't know for 100% if its related exclusively to msm (I believe so), but I've had wrinkles around my mouth, one long wrinkle on my forehead (which is almost 90% gone!) and a lot of very small wrinkles around my eyes - they are all 80% gone!
> 
> I play guitar and I dont use pick therefore I broke my nails all the time before - but now they're thick as tooth! I didn't break a nail since using msm!
> 
> Gutted, I just wish to say thanks for this info, I can really see the change on my body.


 
watch the radient skin kick in after a few months too  :Smile:

----------


## bananana

> watch the radient skin kick in after a few months too


  :Smile: 

If these good effects continue I'm going to talk about this with my mom and suggest she starts using it instead of $200 anti aging non-working creams she uses. 

I'm just so surprised women dont know about this, instead they buy tonnes and tonnes of vichy creams and such which probably have no effect or very small one... My nails are prettier than most girls' I meet.  :Big Grin:

----------


## dex89

can I use this regime with the BIG 3?

----------


## gutted

> can I use this regime with the BIG 3?


 yeh you can use it but dont expect visible results.

----------


## dex89

> yeh you can use it but dont expect visible results.


 Why is that?

----------


## gutted

> Why is that?


 long story cut short -> homeostasis.

----------


## dex89

> long story cut short -> homeostasis.


 ehhhh, thank you lol

----------


## MrBlonde

> watch the radient skin kick in after a few months too


 My face does have an extra glow to it and I put it down to a new moisturiser but maybe its the MSM.

My hair is still shedding/thinning though but I hope I am at my lowest ebb and the only way is up from here.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Ok my nails have grown a lot. And my hair texture feels soft.
Definently can see changes.

----------


## doke

Anyone seen the xenna topical 183 lotion for hair loss which is msm?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Could I get a poll on how long everyones body hair (arms, chest, etc) has grown? I know this is kinda silly but it is a concern for me as Im kinda on the hairy side already. 

   I have seen some increased growth/length on my forearms which looks a little ridiculous, lol  :Frown:

----------


## Cob984

> Could I get a poll on how long everyones body hair (arms, chest, etc) has grown? I know this is kinda silly but it is a concern for me as Im kinda on the hairy side already. 
> 
>    I have seen some increased growth/length on my forearms which looks a little ridiculous, lol


 my forearms, my legs are all waaay hairier now, and i was already a hairy dude
i think im also growing shoulder hair now loooool

i dont think ill give up the msm for it just yet to see if it actually works which it isnt doing much so far, if it works ill stick with it and go the hair removal route, otherwise ill drop it

i have dropped my dose from 9 to 6g/day in case

----------


## Breaking Bald

Gutted...why is it a problem posting pictures???  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
You can blank your face out, it isn't exactly difficult. Can you just post some pictures already.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted...why is it a problem posting pictures??? 
> You can blank your face out, it isn't exactly difficult. Can you just post some pictures already.


 dude its a problem for me. You have nothing to lose trying msm/C apart from time & dedication. Trx2 isnt essential here.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> dude its a problem for me. You have nothing to lose trying msm/C apart from time & dedication. Trx2 isnt essential here.


 Why is it a problem??? No one will be able to identify you if they can't see your face. I don't get it, how can it be a problem? You know people love to see pictures.

----------


## gutted

> Why is it a problem??? No one will be able to identify you if they can't see your face. I don't get it, how can it be a problem? You know people love to see pictures.


 my hair alone can help identify me  :Smile: 

honestly i dont feel comfortable posting pictures in the public domain. 
Perhaps some of the other guys who are trialling this may post pictures some time in the future.

----------


## Breaking Bald

> my hair alone can help identify me 
> 
> honestly i dont feel comfortable posting pictures in the public domain. 
> Perhaps some of the other guys who are trialling this may post pictures some time in the future.


 It really can't...that's bull. You think your friends/family will just happen to stumble upon this thread and happen to guess that it is you just from a picture of your hair posted by the random name 'gutted'.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

So we just have to take your word for it??? Way to be a team player...
I appreciate your efforts and all but I don't get why you can't post pictures. Seems like a waste.

----------


## gutted

> So we just have to take your word for it??? Way to be a team player...


 take the word of posters beside myself who have already used it and noticed some of the results i mentioned in the thread. Also there is some science in the first post that you can take a look at and make a decsion to see if you want to trial it.

----------


## bananana

> It really can't...that's bull. You think your friends/family will just happen to stumble upon this thread and happen to guess that it is you just from a picture of your hair posted by the random name 'gutted'. 
> 
> So we just have to take your word for it??? Way to be a team player...
> I appreciate your efforts and all but I don't get why you can't post pictures. Seems like a waste.


 Ok, this is his personal decision. I respect that.

Dont assault the guy so much.  :Smile: 
I'm grateful he pointed this to us. 

PS, I still dont see ant regrowth from this combo, but I see all kind of other changes (nails, skin, less itch, less oil...) 

I'm still waiting for my cetirizine to come (damn shipping takes 30 days..) and I'll start that also. I need to see REGROWTH. I have AWFUL photos I took 1 year ago when I buzzed my hair - I look like shit.

If I get regrowth I'll post those old photos and new ones.

----------


## Benzzro

About 3 weeks on it, hair is much itchier now unfortunately (Maybe cause of dropping Niz?) Obvious gonna keep using the combo. Hopefully itch will gtfo!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> About 3 weeks on it, hair is much itchier now unfortunately (Maybe cause of dropping Niz?) Obvious gonna keep using the combo. Hopefully itch will gtfo!


 So is mine. And my scalp is never itchy.

----------


## Jcm800

Yep I'm still itching, lovely nails tho :-)

----------


## Benzzro

I'm losing more faith in this combo reading alot of the posts, it seems a lot like Fin, some people respond well some people don't  :Frown: . OP could've just gotten very lucky this worked for him. I'll give this another 1-2 months to see if the itch goes away or not otherwise I'll probably get on fin again.

----------


## Cob984

> I'm losing more faith in this combo reading alot of the posts, it seems a lot like Fin, some people respond well some people don't . OP could've just gotten very lucky this worked for him. I'll give this another 1-2 months to see if the itch goes away or not otherwise I'll probably get on fin again.


 i think one of the problems could be gutted is understating the impact trx2 has had on the success of this combo, well even though im on trx2 im not really seeing much improvement yet, i hope for some stabilization at the minimum soon else i will add to this combo, i wont drop it but i wont solely rely on it either

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> i think one of the problems could be gutted is understating the impact trx2 has had on the success of this combo, well even though im on trx2 im not really seeing much improvement yet, i hope for some stabilization at the minimum soon else i will add to this combo, i wont drop it but i wont solely rely on it either


 Remember this has not been clinically tested, its based on one man's experience.

----------


## doke

Am i alone here or has anyone thought of topical msm as in xenna 183?

----------


## MrBlonde

> About 3 weeks on it, hair is much itchier now unfortunately (Maybe cause of dropping Niz?) Obvious gonna keep using the combo. Hopefully itch will gtfo!


 


> So is mine. And my scalp is never itchy.


 My itch reached a very intense level before subsiding.  It was itchy all over, all day long.  Now I would say it has almost been completely irradicated.  

Maybe this program compounds the itch somewhat before beating it hence the increased sensation?  I can understand a couple of you who are considering dropping out, it would be heartbreaking to waste all this time and hair on something that doesn't work but thats the risk we take with any regeim. 

 But be carefull, if your hair gets worse and you panic drop out you are left with less hair to try and recover via a different regeim, which will enduce its own shed meaning even less hair again, plus you will never know what results you could have got if you just hung in there.  We are lab rats here, doing it for the greater good, its not much compensation for those of us for whom it doesn't work but we could get an idea or its success ratio ie it worked on 3 out of 8 of us or it eventually worked on all or none, whatever the case may be.

I am going to stick it out.  I've been religiously taking 9gMSM/4gVITC & TRX2 daily.  I have missed two days of TRX2 due to my order getting delayed in shipping but its due here tomorrow so I will neck those extra pills to get TRX2 levels high in my system.  Actually I think I have noticed a slight increase in itch during those two days of non TRX2 use. Be warned I am not the best for noticing this things straight of the bat though, more a hindsight guy.

My hair was looking so limp and thin last week and it felt very dry and I had that straw like effect.  I took gutted's advise and added a good conditioner and this week my hair look a lot better as a result, thicker and shiner.  I used that Aussie 3 minute miracle Deep repair conditioner.  Its the first time since starting this that I felt good about my hair.  My facial skin looks good too and I can 100% report I am seeing no extra body hair growth.  I think, and I stress the I think part, my shedding may have reduced as I haven't seen as many hairs out in my hands but I made a decision not to run my fingers through my hair as much so I can't be sure if they are falling out when I'm out and about in the wind etc.  I will try to pay more attention in the coming weeks and give you guys a better idea.

All we can do is hang in there. If you didn't feel a reduce in itch after say 5 months I would then give up the ghost as you may need this long for any effects of DHT blockers you may have been on to fade.  I think we all can agree, Gutted included that although its a 12 month commitment like any other regeim you should at least be experiencing this first step by the 4-5month mark and if not then its not working for you. Oh and you must be on nothing else DHT wise especially. 5months is a maximum deadline for step one, I think gutted would agree.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> My itch reached a very intense level before subsiding.  It was itchy all over, all day long.  Now I would say it has almost been completely irradicated.  
> 
> Maybe this program compounds the itch somewhat before beating it hence the increased sensation?  I can understand a couple of you who are considering dropping out, it would be heartbreaking to waste all this time and hair on something that doesn't work but thats the risk we take with any regeim. 
> 
>  But be carefull, if your hair gets worse and you panic drop out you are left with less hair to try and recover via a different regeim, which will enduce its own shed meaning even less hair again, plus you will never know what results you could have got if you just hung in there.  We are lab rats here, doing it for the greater good, its not much compensation for those of us for whom it doesn't work but we could get an idea or its success ratio ie it worked on 3 out of 8 of us or it eventually worked on all or none, whatever the case may be.
> 
> I am going to stick it out.  I've been religiously taking 9gMSM/4gVITC & TRX2 daily.  I have missed two days of TRX2 due to my order getting delayed in shipping but its due here tomorrow so I will neck those extra pills to get TRX2 levels high in my system.  Actually I think I have noticed a slight increase in itch during those two days of non TRX2 use. Be warned I am not the best for noticing this things straight of the bat though, more a hindsight guy.
> 
> My hair was looking so limp and thin last week and it felt very dry and I had that straw like effect.  I took gutted's advise and added a good conditioner and this week my hair look a lot better as a result, thicker and shiner.  I used that Aussie 3 minute miracle Deep repair conditioner.  Its the first time since starting this that I felt good about my hair.  My facial skin looks good too and I can 100% report I am seeing no extra body hair growth.  I think, and I stress the I think part, my shedding may have reduced as I haven't seen as many hairs out in my hands but I made a decision not to run my fingers through my hair as much so I can't be sure if they are falling out when I'm out and about in the wind etc.  I will try to pay more attention in the coming weeks and give you guys a better idea.
> ...


 Im going to keep this at a low dosage 

3k vitc and msm

----------


## gutted

> I'm losing more faith in this combo reading alot of the posts, it seems a lot like Fin, some people respond well some people don't . OP could've just gotten very lucky this worked for him. I'll give this another 1-2 months to see if the itch goes away or not otherwise I'll probably get on fin *again.*


 so you was on the fin prior to using the combo?

everyone WILL respond, *IF* they take it as directed, without anything hindering its efficacy. 

- dht blockers, internal and external.
- Recently dropping dht blockers, internal or external. 

*WILL*, without any doubt in my mind, affect these results. Hence why i say it is very very wise of you to drop them now than later, its a wasted effort you even trying this combo.

*When you drop these dht inhibiting substances you need to be prepared to allow 3 months for things to reset back to normal.* Things WILL get worse in this time period (icreased itching,shedding of hairs etc) but you shouldnt be shocked as this will calm down.

after this 3 month period the 12 month timeline will apply to you.

----------


## bananana

Are 4 grams of vit c necessary?
It seems like a huge dose to me. 

I'm taking around 1.5-2 (hard to tell as I take juices and fruit etc..)

----------


## gutted

> Are 4 grams of vit c necessary?
> It seems like a huge dose to me. 
> 
> I'm taking around 1.5-2 (hard to tell as I take juices and fruit etc..)


 no itsnt neccsary, 1/2 grams is more than enough. If you take juices etc then 1 gram is enough.

----------


## new bubble

> so you was on the fin prior to using the combo?
> 
> everyone WILL respond, *IF* they take it as directed, without anything hindering its efficacy. 
> 
> - dht blockers, internal and external.
> - Recently dropping dht blockers, internal or external. 
> 
> *WILL*, without any doubt in my mind, affect these results. Hence why i say it is very very wise of you to drop them now than later, its a wasted effort you even trying this combo.
> 
> ...


 I totally agree with your comments. This combo worked for me along with the shampoo in reducing itching and oily scalp reduction and calming the shed right down when I started. It works best if you take nothing else internally or externally and probably will for those who have not subjected themselves to other remedies prior to starting.

----------


## MrBlonde

> This study claims that Glutathione levels decline in your scalp as we age:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2929555/
> 
> could it be that baldness is the result of that?
> 
> 
> Next month or so when I''l have my finances in order, I'll start taking these:
> 
> http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htm.../products.html
> ...


 What do you make of this product 2020?  A bit cheaper then the ones you posted.

http://www.physicianformulas.com/sto...me=Glutathione

An interesting article on how to increase glutathione levels naturally with herbs, vitamins, nutrients, whey protein and dietary pills can be found here

http://www.raysahelian.com/glutathione.html

Interestingly Turmeric/Curcumin are mentioned as boosting agents.  Didn't you noticed negative effects Gutted when you added these to your regeim?

The article mentions the following on side effects



> Side effects, safety, danger
> No significant side effects have been reported in medical journals with supplementation of these pills.
> 
> What happens if levels are low?
> Glutathione deficiency contributes to oxidative stress, which plays a key role in aging and the worsening of many diseases including Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, liver disease, cystic fibrosis, sickle cell anemia, HIV, AIDS, cancer, heart attack, and diabetes. *The concentration of glutathione declines with age and in some age-related diseases.*


 
I am reading quite a bit about glutathione in relation to skin whitening and pigmentation, hence the radiant skin some of us are noticing.  This ebay search of glutathione shows how cloesly they are binded and some more cheap glutathione purchase options.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_tr...at=0&_from=R40

These are first hit on google type research results, just thought I'd share anyway  :Smile:

----------


## gutted

> What do you make of this product 2020?  A bit cheaper then the ones you posted.
> 
> http://www.physicianformulas.com/sto...me=Glutathione
> 
> An interesting article on how to increase glutathione levels naturally with herbs, vitamins, nutrients, whey protein and dietary pills can be found here
> 
> http://www.raysahelian.com/glutathione.html
> 
> Interestingly Turmeric/Curcumin are mentioned as boosting agents.  Didn't you noticed negative effects Gutted when you added these to your regeim?
> ...


 yes i did notice negative effects. curcumin probably works in a simillar manner? but i cant be sure of that.

----------


## gutted

another intresting thing with the combo is that if you have any scars within a few weeks to a few months they will start to fade and quite possibly with time dissappear.

This may be a great addition to those HT patients with scars!!!

----------


## 2020

> What do you make of this product 2020?  A bit cheaper then the ones you posted.
> 
> http://www.physicianformulas.com/sto...me=Glutathione
> 
> An interesting article on how to increase glutathione levels naturally with herbs, vitamins, nutrients, whey protein and dietary pills can be found here
> 
> http://www.raysahelian.com/glutathione.html
> 
> Interestingly Turmeric/Curcumin are mentioned as boosting agents.  Didn't you noticed negative effects Gutted when you added these to your regeim?
> ...


 Glutathione, yes. The products you're listed are probably useless. If raising glutathione is our goal, then why bother with MSM? Just take glutathione directly or take its precursors.

I will start taking this next year(out of stock until Jan 2013):
http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/sta...heric-gsh.html

If low glutathione is the cause, then that would fix it as one serving provides a lot of it.

I'm currently taking this as Vitamin C:
http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htm...vitamin-c.html

it's fat soluble so it lasts in the body 12 hours or more as opposed to whatever Vitamin C pills you're taking which last less than an hour. Also, it has been found that 1,000 mg of this special vitamin C is equivalent to taking *50,000 mg* of regular Vitamin C...

----------


## MrBlonde

> Glutathione, yes. The products you're listed are probably useless. If raising glutathione is our goal, then why bother with MSM? Just take glutathione directly or take its precursors.
> 
> I will start taking this next year(out of stock until Jan 2013):
> http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/sta...heric-gsh.html
> 
> If low glutathione is the cause, then that would fix it as one serving provides a lot of it.
> 
> I'm currently taking this as Vitamin C:
> http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htm...vitamin-c.html
> ...


 Is a 50,000mg equivilant a safe dosage?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Not to be a downer but just posting a recent observation that is definitely odd.

2 Days ago I woke up with my scalp hurting and my hair suddenly feeling significantly more thin and lifeless. Like it was on the fast track to diffusing. This is in the midst of having 17-18 months of thickening on trx2 alone and then some additional small positives from MSM/vit C. Just came out of nowhere, BAM. Very strange and VERY disconcerting. Due to its sudden onset though I feel there has to be a specific culprit. Here are the things I can think of.

1) 2nd time using a shampoo from Giovanni called "Magnetic therapy shampoo", all organic good stuff but maybe this positively charged magnetic therapy had an ill effect on my hair.. Seems odd as Ive mostly read positive reviews.

2) Have been using a bunch of vitamins alongside Trx2 (no androgen anything) for the past 18 months for other physical problems I have. Havent had any issues really, but maybe one of the vitamins has built up to a point of being detrimental. I dunno.

3) Started taking this stuff called "high vitamin butter oil" a month ago that is supposed to really help with testosterone production through raising good cholesterol levels. Maybe it is inadvertently raising my DHT levels and therefore causing this sudden wreckage to my hair.

4) Im turning 31 soon so maybe my MPB is getting really aggresive, but very strange how I feel this happen overnight when progress has been good up to this point.

Anyways, I will be dropping some vitamins as well as the shampoo to try and narrow down the culprit. Hoping its not scenario #4.

----------


## gutted

> Not to be a downer but just posting a recent observation that is definitely odd.
> 
> 2 Days ago I woke up with my scalp hurting and my hair suddenly feeling significantly more thin and lifeless. Like it was on the fast track to diffusing. This is in the midst of having 17-18 months of thickening on trx2 alone and then some additional small positives from MSM/vit C. Just came out of nowhere, BAM. Very strange and VERY disconcerting. Due to its sudden onset though I feel there has to be a specific culprit. Here are the things I can think of.
> 
> 1) 2nd time using a shampoo from Giovanni called "Magnetic therapy shampoo", all organic good stuff but maybe this positively charged magnetic therapy had an ill effect on my hair.. Seems odd as Ive mostly read positive reviews.
> 
> 2) Have been using a bunch of vitamins alongside Trx2 (no androgen anything) for the past 18 months for other physical problems I have. Havent had any issues really, but maybe one of the vitamins has built up to a point of being detrimental. I dunno.
> 
> 3) Started taking this stuff called "high vitamin butter oil" a month ago that is supposed to really help with testosterone production through raising good cholesterol levels. Maybe it is inadvertently raising my DHT levels and therefore causing this sudden wreckage to my hair.
> ...


 
likley scenario 3 and 4. Are you still using the hydrocortisone and micanzaole nitrate?

----------


## MrBlonde

> Not to be a downer but just posting a recent observation that is definitely odd.
> 
> *2 Days ago I woke up with my scalp hurting and my hair suddenly feeling significantly more thin and lifeless.* Like it was on the fast track to diffusing. This is in the midst of having 17-18 months of thickening on trx2 alone and then some additional small positives from MSM/vit C. Just came out of nowhere, BAM. Very strange and VERY disconcerting. Due to its sudden onset though I feel there has to be a specific culprit. Here are the things I can think of.


 This has come out of the blue by the sounds of your post and doesn't sound like the slow regression of MBP to me.  Or maybe it creeped up on you without noticing but to all of a sudden wake up with an irritated scalp and thin hair would indicate something instantly reacted negatively to your scalp.

My guess would be the shampoo as it was only the second time you used it.  I find switching from any brand of shampoo has an instant result in relation to scalp sensation and apperance of the hair.  Go back to your old shampoo and report back.

----------


## Cob984

lol gutted you keep changing your mind about external, now you are vehemently saying drop the external ones too, it wont work for sure? 

iv dropped all internal still on external as you know

----------


## gutted

> lol gutted you keep changing your mind about external, now you are vehemently saying drop the external ones too, it wont work for sure? 
> 
> iv dropped all internal still on external as you know


 ive ALWAYS said any androgen inhibiting substance will likley affect your results. *Its better to be safe than sorry* and drop them asap, although external dht inhibiting substances have a lower chance of gaining systemic introduction - there is no way of knowing whether or not this has occured...*the next best thing to do is completeley eliminate them*...

yes im aware you are still using external dht blockers. The next logical step for you to do is either give up on the regime and block dht as usual or drop the external dht inhibiting substances and give the combo alone a go and repeat the timeline again (+3 months for the reset.)
thats up to you to decide.

----------


## Cob984

ya it might right, not for sure? i really doubt putting some sp on my head is going to interfere with this and if you look at the beginning of this thread you agreed with that
so how can you be sure what i am doing now is pointless?

----------


## gutted

> ya it might right, not for sure? i really doubt putting some sp on my head is going to interfere with this and if you look at the beginning of this thread you agreed with that
> so how can you be sure what i am doing now is pointless?


 try it and find out. Its very likley to affect results.It depends on how much you apply and how much gains systmic introduction.

----------


## Cob984

> try it and find out. Its very likley to affect results.It depends on how much you apply and how much gains systmic introduction.


 5-8 pumps of revivogen, not too much at all,

and i doubt there is systemic introduction because i experience none of the sides i do with oral sp, as soon as i take oral sp i usually feel bloated, less energetic and have a lower libido

----------


## gutted

> 5-8 pumps of revivogen, not too much at all,
> 
> and i doubt there is systemic introduction because i experience none of the sides i do with oral sp, as soon as i take oral sp i usually feel bloated, less energetic and have a lower libido


 thats not the signs to watch out for...

watch out for the opposite signs of increased libido etc.

----------


## Cob984

have another question for you, if you go through the trx2 website, they recommend lowering dht wherever possible but specifically discourage fin because of its safety profile, for eg, if you read their newsletter they recommend using nizoral because its dht reducing properties, 

so you are telling me? they dont know what works with their own product?

----------


## gutted

> have another question for you, if you go through the trx2 website, they recommend lowering dht wherever possible but specifically discourage fin because of its safety profile, for eg, if you read their newsletter they recommend using nizoral because its dht reducing properties, 
> 
> so you are telling me? they dont know what works with their own product?


 thats exactly what im saying!

If you want to do that, then your free to do so. If it works for you alongside the combo then thats great.

----------


## Cob984

> thats not the signs to watch out for...
> 
> watch out for the opposite signs of increased libido etc.


 wait what? increased libido? why would i have that?

----------


## gutted

> wait what? increased libido? why would i have that?


 homeostasis.

----------


## Cob984

> wait what? increased libido? why would i have that?


 i understand you can increased libido as a reaction when you first start taking dht inhibitors but i have been taking these for a while now and i think im way past that stage, you remember when i took sp for 3 days in the middle? one dose of 120 mg each, i immediately felt much crappier, its gone since, i feel normal now even with the topical stuff

----------


## MrBlonde

> ya it might right, not for sure? i really doubt putting some sp on my head is going to interfere with this and if you look at the beginning of this thread you agreed with that
> so how can you be sure what i am doing now is pointless?


 I don't know why you keep repeating the question to Gutted about the external use of DHT blockers like he can possibly tell how much gets absorbed or not like his is some hairloss guru.  He has had success with a regeim and if it works for him it just might work for someone else.  He won't show us pics either so we don't actually know how good a result he got if any at all but some of us are taking his word for it.  You need to decide whether or not you want to also.  Personally I am going with it because its an all natural program.  I have reduced itch but am nowhere near confident that this is going to work yet.  Its a risk we all must take.

Tbh Cob984 it sounds like you are looking for any excuse to use sp again.  Well then use it, drop this and use or go with both.  Its up to you.  Gutted has given you reasons why he thinks they wont work together, you must decide whether or not you think those reasons have any truth to them.

Didn't you report that sp lost its effect after a period of time?  So even that isn't fool proof.

Basically its stick or twist time mate.  You decide.

----------


## Cob984

> I don't know why you keep repeating the question to Gutted about the external use of DHT blockers like he can possibly tell how much gets absorbed or not like his is some hairloss guru.  He has had success with a regeim and if it works for him it just might work for someone else.  He won't show us pics either so we don't actually know how good a result he got if any at all but some of us are taking his word for it.  You need to decide whether or not you want to also.  Personally I am going with it because its an all natural program.  I have reduced itch but am nowhere near confident that this is going to work yet.  Its a risk we all must take.
> 
> Tbh Cob984 it sounds like you are looking for any excuse to use sp again.  Well then use it, drop this and use or go with both.  Its up to you.  Gutted has given you reasons why he thinks they wont work together, you must decide whether or not you think those reasons have any truth to them.
> 
> Didn't you report that sp lost its effect after a period of time?  So even that isn't fool proof.
> 
> Basically its stick or twist time mate.  You decide.


 sp is also all natural mate, and i have already said im off the oral sp which evidently changes serum dht, i am debating with him on what he thinks are the signs of systemic dhtblocking through my topical use, i have also used topical sp forever and am unsure whether i should drop it, im too scared to do so but if its absolutely essential i might do it, seems like its debatable ,

----------


## sizzlinghairs

> likley scenario 3 and 4. Are you still using the hydrocortisone and micanzaole nitrate?


 Well, how would #4 make much sense if literally, just 2 days prior, I was like hmm, "my hair is looking really solid". Maybe I wasnt noticing earlier than that, but when I think my hair looks solid then it usually is. So aggresive MPB smacking me in the face overnight doesnt seem to sound very realistic, but like I said, my observations up until that point might have been faulty. Also, if you are saying #4 then it is discrediting your combo because I have been on trx2 for so long and then adding msm 2 months ago should be well past your timeline for good results, not a sudden change for the negative. 

In regards to #3, MAYBE maybe.. I will be dropping it for awhile to see if things improve.

Yes, I still use the mico and hydro. Both just a little on my hairline. Have had no real problems using them since I started using trx2 18 months ago. Last 2 days I used hydro on whole scalp to calm the sudden irritation I have been feeling, but that has been the only time I do that. Other wise mico and hydro ONLY a little on the hairline.

One other thing I have been doing recently is drinking raw organic vegetable smoothies (cucumber/spinach/celery/garlic/apple/sprouts/avocado and ginger). I highly doubt such a healthy lifestyle addition could be to blame, but it does coincide with the timeline.. Hmm

----------


## gutted

guys, this isnt proven to work in any way. i am only documenting what ive experienced with this combo. And i can only speak for this combo ALONE, if you decide to use it with other stuff its pretty likley this may blur your results, its also likley it may not. I can only vouch for this combo alone.

Now if you do use it with other stuff, you may make a misjudgment and percieve the combo to be not effective at all when in fact it was working all along only that the other stuff you were taking were having other affects on you.

Its best to use it alone to see if you can replicate my results, i sincerley do believe anyone and everyone will experience results, it NEEDS to be followed *as directed*.

If youve recentley dropped something, you need to get on the combo and +3 months for things to balance out and then start the 12 month timeline of results to see if they materialise.

In the +3 months you allow things to balance out - you WILL notice some signs of increased shedding (not loss) and itching and its possible you will also notice an increase in oil output. This will balance out approx 3 months.

Invisible results ar pretty fast within a few weeks you will notice these occurring.

----------


## gutted

> Well, how would #4 make much sense if literally, just 2 days prior, I was like hmm, "my hair is looking really solid". Maybe I wasnt noticing earlier than that, but when I think my hair looks solid then it usually is. So aggresive MPB smacking me in the face overnight doesnt seem to sound very realistic, but like I said, my observations up until that point might have been faulty. Also, if you are saying #4 then it is discrediting your combo because I have been on trx2 for so long and then adding msm 2 months ago should be well past your timeline for good results, not a sudden change for the negative. 
> 
> In regards to #3, MAYBE maybe.. I will be dropping it for awhile to see if things improve.
> 
> Yes, I still use the mico and hydro. Both just a little on my hairline. Have had no real problems using them since I started using trx2 18 months ago. Last 2 days I used hydro on whole scalp to calm the sudden irritation I have been feeling, but that has been the only time I do that. Other wise mico and hydro ONLY a little on the hairline.
> 
> One other thing I have been doing recently is drinking raw organic vegetable smoothies (cucumber/spinach/celery/garlic/apple/sprouts/avocado and ginger). I highly doubt such a healthy lifestyle addition could be to blame, but it does coincide with the timeline.. Hmm


 
im highley suspecting the micanazole nitrate.

----------


## MrBlonde

> thats not the signs to watch out for...
> 
> watch out for the opposite signs of increased libido etc.


 


> homeostasis.


 Uh oh.  Let me get this right, high libido is bad.

I am feeling really good libido wise all the time

----------


## gutted

sorry i meant scenario 2 and 3.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Well, in terms of my mico/hydro I use such a small amount I could consider the majority of my scalp to be a proper environment (just trx2/msm/vitc) for results consideration. The other supps I take I have been using even before trx2 so their detriments would have been shown by now.

edit (after I read your mico response): I use LESS than a HALF pea sized amount JUST on my hairline. The rest of my scalp, nothing. Miniscule i tell you :P

----------


## gutted

> Uh oh.  Let me get this right, high libido is bad.
> 
> I am feeling really good libido wise all the time


 lol no its good!

your not using dht inhibiting substances so you have nothing to worry about.

----------


## gutted

> Well, in terms of my mico/hydro I use such a small amount I could consider the majority of my scalp to be a proper environment (just trx2/msm/vitc) for results consideration. The other supps I take I have been using even before trx2 so their detriments would have been shown by now.


 have no clue, where the source of your problem is. Hence why using the combo alone provides a clearer perspective.

----------


## Jcm800

gutted - can you post a link for the exact Vit C you are using from bodykind pls? I'll order those, so i know i'm on the same as you, cheers.

----------


## gutted

> gutted - can you post a link for the exact Vit C you are using from bodykind pls? I'll order those, so i know i'm on the same as you, cheers.


 http://www.google.co.uk/products/cat...ed=0CEgQ8wIwBA

i get most of mine from natrual sources. juices etc.

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks, I ordered some high quality drs best in the end, should be okay. I drink lots of juice etc as well so should be covered.

----------


## bouflee

Jesus doubt this will help my hair but ive been on msm and vit c for 2 weeks now and my wrinkles/fine lines around my eyes are almost gone!!

----------


## Jcm800

Actually my forehead isn't as wrinkled as before, fck it ill carry on with this even as a beauty regime lol.

----------


## bouflee

> Actually my forehead isn't as wrinkled as before, fck it ill carry on with this even as a beauty regime lol.


 High five brother

----------


## doke

Hairloss research say that L Lysine 1500 to 2000 mgs a day with an antiandrogen can help with hair loss.

----------


## Space

I really don't want to be a downer here, but here's my experience.

I have stuck to natural supplements and haven't tested any form of chemicals such as minox, finas, keta etc.

I'm now 21 years old, and I started to notice my hair loss a little more than a year ago, i noticed increased shedding and slight thinnning. 

So since then I've been on multivitamins, vitamin B, Omega 3, silicon and some other stuff. I also tried eating fenugreek seeds for a couple of months. None of these things had any really noticeable affect.

This fall i started taking Toco-8, and actually noticed decreased shedding, although by the same time my hair got really itchy and oily. I don't know if this was because of toco-8 or perhaps because I switched schampoo.

Anyhow, I found this thread I wanted to give it a try. 

When I started to take MSM there was a noticeable increase in shedding. Since then I've lowered the dose, and then slowly increased it again. By now I'm off toco-8 almost a month. I've been on MSM+vitamin C for about 1 month and 1/2. And my shedding is worse, no doubt. It feels like it's even worse than before I got on toco-8.

This is everything I'm on right now, and have been for a while:

Supergreens (swedish multivitamin, algae stuff)
Pumpkin seeds
Fish oil
Vitamin C
MSM
Algae

Thoughts? Is it possible that the MSM induced shedd actually is a positive one? Making room for new hairs?
Or is MSM (in these large doses) just not for me?

----------


## Cob984

> I really don't want to be a downer here, but here's my experience.
> 
> I have stuck to natural supplements and haven't tested any form of chemicals such as minox, finas, keta etc.
> 
> I'm now 21 years old, and I started to notice my hair loss a little more than a year ago, i noticed increased shedding and slight thinnning. 
> 
> So since then I've been on multivitamins, vitamin B, Omega 3, silicon and some other stuff. I also tried eating fenugreek seeds for a couple of months. None of these things had any really noticeable affect.
> 
> This fall i started taking Toco-8, and actually noticed decreased shedding, although by the same time my hair got really itchy and oily. I don't know if this was because of toco-8 or perhaps because I switched schampoo.
> ...


 
Just wait for gutted to come tell you how the pumpkin seeds and fish oil is messing up your shed and you need to drop everything for the miracle msm to work

----------


## Space

> Just wait for gutted to come tell you how the pumpkin seeds and fish oil is messing up your shed and you need to drop everything for the miracle msm to work


 If I drop the pumpkin seeds I won't get enough zinc in my diet, same with fish oil.

Surely it can't be good for your hair to be low on things like zinc and fatty acids?

----------


## MrBlonde

> This fall i started taking Toco-8, and actually noticed decreased shedding, although by the same time my hair got really itchy and oily. I don't know if this was because of toco-8 or perhaps because I switched schampoo.
> 
> Anyhow, I found this thread I wanted to give it a try. 
> 
> When I started to take MSM there was a noticeable increase in shedding. Since then I've lowered the dose, and then slowly increased it again. By now I'm off toco-8 almost a month. I've been on MSM+vitamin C for about 1 month and 1/2. And my shedding is worse, no doubt. It feels like it's even worse than before I got on toco-8.


 I noticed no change when I was taking toco-8 but when I dropped it I shed a lot.

I got through two bottles then stopped as I was shedding at the same rate whilst on it.  It could be down to that.

----------


## Space

> I noticed no change when I was taking toco-8 but when I dropped it I shed a lot.
> 
> I got through two bottles then stopped as I was shedding at the same rate whilst on it.  It could be down to that.


 First of all I started taking MSM before dropping toco-8, and immediately noticed increased shedding.

Second of all I've been off toco-8 for over 3 weeks now, so shouldn't it be over by now?

----------


## doke

This german product says it can halt genetic hair loss it contains rhodanid i have got some a shampoo and lotion from a german apo. it is called activogland.

----------


## gutted

> Jesus *doubt* this will help my hair but ive been on msm and vit c for 2 weeks now and my wrinkles/fine lines around my eyes are almost gone!!


 dont doubt its abilities! 

hairwise you'll see stuff happening halfway through the timeline. Of course thats *IF* your taking it alone.

----------


## gutted

> First of all I started taking MSM before dropping toco-8, and immediately noticed increased shedding.
> 
> Second of all I've been off toco-8 for over 3 weeks now, so shouldn't it be over by now?


 there will ne NO shedding on msm. if you percieve one, those hairs that are being shed, is pureley down to MPB and/or other stuff you are taking.

----------


## Space

> there will ne NO shedding on msm. if you percieve one, those hairs that are being shed, is pureley down to MPB and/or other stuff you are taking.


 How do you know that?

----------


## gutted

> How do you know that?


 its mode of action isnt like minox or fin...people are accustomed to "shedding" when starting a treatment. MSM works to decrease sheds, this takes time to be noticed.

Yes there may be some mild sheds initially but they should go undetected, and these sheds are not the result of starting msm they are either the result of

A) stuff you are taking which is adverseley affecting your hairs

B) you didnt address mpb previously with any treatment, and those hairs that are shed are mpb affected hairs that are being shed, which WOULD have shed anyway (even had you not started msm) MSM speeds up hair growth (the same as minox) which may give you this perception of "shedding"
Its a good thing you started msm asap, since those hairs may not have returned in thier next cycle.

----------


## Space

> its mode of action isnt like minox or fin...people are accustomed to "shedding" when starting a treatment. MSM works to decrease sheds, this takes time to be noticed.
> 
> Yes there may be some mild sheds initially but they should go undetected, and these sheds are not the result of starting msm they are either the result of
> 
> A) stuff you are taking which is adverseley affecting your hairs
> 
> B) you didnt address mpb previously with any treatment, and those hairs that are shed are mpb affected hairs that are being shed, which WOULD have shed anyway (even had you not started msm) MSM speeds up hair growth (the same as minox) which may give you this perception of "shedding"
> Its a good thing you started msm asap, since those hairs may not have returned in thier next cycle.


 So you're saying my current shedding could be good thing then?

----------


## gutted

> So you're saying my current shedding could be good thing then?


 it may be, it may not be...I or you have no way of knowing since you are using a multitude of products, some of which have known antiandrogenic properties.

You dropped toco8 within the last month or two, you need to wait 3 months for things to balance out and then stay on the msm/C for another few months before things start to calm down for you (shed wise)

----------


## Space

> it may be, it may not be...I or you have no way of knowing since you are using a multitude of products, *some of which have known antiandrogenic properties*.
> 
> You dropped toco8 within the last month or two, you need to wait 3 months for things to balance out and then stay on the msm/C for another few months before things start to calm down for you (shed wise)


 Like?

tenchar

----------


## gutted

> Like?
> 
> tenchar


 fishoil. Although there is no way of knowing what the other stuff you are taking is doing. So it may not just be that. As i have maintained throughout the thread, this only works alone.

----------


## Space

> fishoil. Although there is no way of knowing what the other stuff you are taking is doing. So it may not just be that. As i have maintained throughout the thread, this only works alone.


 You have suggested that limiting or reducing DHT in a balanced manner is a good idea: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=637

Fish oil is IMO a prime example of that. The body needs fish oil, and back in the day when people didn't just eat junk we probably got enough of that stuff in our regular diet. But now most people don't.

Isn't it imperative to have a nutritious diet if you want to keep your hair? I can understand your advice against chemical shit minox or finas, since that stuff is inherently bad for you. 

But it seems silly to exclude stuff that's basically natural and good for you. And stuff that we're probably supposed to get in our regular diet.

----------


## gutted

> You have suggested that limiting or reducing DHT in a balanced manner is a good idea: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=637
> 
> Fish oil is IMO a prime example of that. The body needs fish oil, and back in the day when people didn't just eat junk we probably got enough of that stuff in our regular diet. But now most people don't.
> 
> Isn't it imperative to have a nutritious diet if you want to keep your hair? I can understand your advice against chemical shit minox or finas, since that stuff is inherently bad for you. 
> 
> But it seems silly to exclude stuff that's basically natural and good for you. And stuff that we're probably supposed to get in our regular diet.


 
yes exactly...but the question is how do you know you are surpressing dht in a balanced manner and not overdoing it? you dont. the next best thing is to not supress it at all. 

I agree with your comments. But if things dont work out for you it may be wise to drop some things in the future, as i can only vouch for the efficacy of the combo used alone.

----------


## ilovebacon

Hey all! I've been a lurker on this board for quite sometime but this is my first post. I'm interested in this but have a few questions about the regimen. 

First of all I am a diffuse thinner. I took Rogaine for approximately a year and quit about 6 months ago. My hair isn't horrible but the post-minox symptoms definitely did a number on the thickness of my hair. I'm not sure if I've reached baseline with this or not... Because I stopped the rogaine I started this about three months ago.

>>> TRX2, MSM (3 grams a day), Inneov Homme, Biosil, Vitamin D, and Fish Oil. I recently stoped taking Shen Min DHT Blocker and Advanced Men's formula about a month ago which I had been taking for a year. Topically I have been using Nizoral and Avalon hair thickening shampoo.

Do I need to stop taking Nizoral as well to achieve the best results with this??? Also, I just ordered Prox-N and the Nano Shampoo from LEF. Is this not a good idea use on this regimen as well? 

Thank you for your help!

----------


## Ginkosama

Recommandations for those who wanna jump on it:

-start low. If you take a full tea spoon straight away you gonna have a bad time.
You need to give your body some time to detox. I took half a tea spoon in the morning and half of a teaspoon during diner and I was feeling feverish, weakened, during the day.
I stepped away for a day and the symptoms vanished.
I started again slower and I am fine now with higher dosages.

-Drink water,  lots of water. For some reason you gonna get dehydrated waaaaay faster when you are building up your dosage, I dunno if it goes away when you are accustomed to a few grams a day.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Recommandations for those who wanna jump on it:
> 
> -start low. If you take a full tea spoon straight away you gonna have a bad time.
> You need to give your body some time to detox. I took half a tea spoon in the morning and half of a teaspoon during diner and I was feeling feverish, weakened, during the day.
> I stepped away for a day and the symptoms vanished.
> I started again slower and I am fine now with higher dosages.
> 
> -Drink water,  lots of water. For some reason you gonna get dehydrated waaaaay faster when you are building up your dosage, I dunno if it goes away when you are accustomed to a few grams a day.


 Sorry but what?  Teaspoons of what?  Are we still talking about MSM here?

----------


## Ginkosama

> Sorry but what?  Teaspoons of what?  Are we still talking about MSM here?


 Yeah, I bought 250 grams of OptiMSM, it's cheaper than the pills.
Half a teaspoon is 2 grams apparently

----------


## bouflee

> Half a teaspoon is 2 grams apparently


 Really? I thought 1 teaspoon was 1 gram and ive been taking 6, so ive been taking 12 grams then

----------


## Space

1 teaspoon is 3,5 grams. It says so on my MSM jar.

----------


## Cob984

is anyone here seeing visible changes in their hair such as thickness, halting of balding etc?
i know of bunch of you guys have seen reduced itch but anything else?

im on week 9 now and i see absolutely nothing, in fact im starting to develop a crown bald spot, my hairloss isnt halting

----------


## Space

> is anyone here seeing visible changes in their hair such as thickness, halting of balding etc?
> i know of bunch of you guys have seen reduced itch but anything else?
> 
> im on week 9 now and i see absolutely nothing, in fact im starting to develop a crown bald spot, my hairloss isnt halting


 Are you on TRX2 as well, or just MSM+vitC?

----------


## Jcm800

> is anyone here seeing visible changes in their hair such as thickness, halting of balding etc?
> i know of bunch of you guys have seen reduced itch but anything else?
> 
> im on week 9 now and i see absolutely nothing, in fact im starting to develop a crown bald spot, my hairloss isnt halting


 Thinking you need to give it more time. If you know of a treatment that'll halt loss and regrow hair in 9 week's  let me know..

----------


## ammin

Starting Finasteride tommorow. I have lost a lot of ground in the last 5 months from NW 1.5 with thick hair to NW 6 Diffuse. My parents, significant other, friends and supervisors have pointed out the same to me.

I cannot rely on gutted's theory anymore which remains unsubstantiated by clinical evidence; that is not to stay I am discrediting it. For those of you experiencing gradual hairloss stick to his recommended regimen and please report back

----------


## StayThick

TRX2 should be arriving soon, but I'm starting to realize if it's in your genetic disposition to go bald, you will go bald. MSM, TRX2, VitC...nothing will prevent it. Starting to lose faith, best I can hope for at this point is to slow it down. At 27 yrs old I hope I can last another 3-4 years before going compete cue-ball up top and other more viable treatments being available.

Very depressing. I'm not holding my breath for this regimen to work.

----------


## MrBlonde

There has been a lot of grumblings in here lately, which is understandable, its our hair we are talking about after all but I don't think anyone has been on the TRX2 MSM & VIT C regeim for over 3 months yet and those that have were on DHT blockers and we need to allow for a rebalance of the time scale.

Its still too early to tell and its a 12 month commitment.  I am going onto my third bottle of TRX2 now.  

Why don't we get a check in on the timescales we are all on?

*new bubble* reported a halt to shedding without adding TRX2




> I was shedding like crazy around june/july time (20-50 hairs p/day), with increased itch and greasy hair. I went on just the MSM/VITC combo WITHOUT trx2 and have improved. Normal shed about 5-10 hairs per day and a healthier scalp and no itch. Soon I will add the TRX2 to see if I can gain some of the loss back or at least maintain whats left. Bottom line it worked for me just stopping the loss and better scalp feel


 ammin you said the following





> I want to add that my thin hair isnt shedding. At all!!


 and that you were also taking 



> FLuridil
> Revivogen
> TRX 2
> Nizoral
> MSM
> Vit C
> Vit D
> B-Complex EOD


 So you may need to wait longer than the rest of us for a better result

Some of us have seen early positives such as slowing down the effects of MPB, it will be 8 months min before we see any visible signs of a gain in density.  Something is happening, the reports are there, I think we all need to be a little more patient and hopefully the next 5-6months will see things improve.

----------


## bananana

I'm 2 months in. 

REPORT:
skin - BETTER
oil - 80-90&#37; less
itch - 80-90% less
nails - strong and thick as hell
body hair - more of it  :Frown:  (but hey, you cant have it all)
shedding - hard to comment because I wash my hair every 5-6 days because it doesn't get dirty/oily till day 4/5, I have somewhat long hair on top, I didn't count hairs but there are at least 30-40 of them in the sink

new regrowth - not sure, probably not.

ps i received my cetirizine today, so I'll start that also.
pps - I repeat: this is so far THE ONLY regimen that ever lowered my oil and itch, 
and I've tried numerous products for a long period of time.

----------


## Cob984

Yes i too just started my third bottle of trx2 today, im into week 7 of trx2, im on 4 / day
, there is no damn way im quitting topical dht blockers till someone here except gutted gets real success, im not maintaining, this is the worrying bit, im still thinning, not happy about that

oh btw bananan im on cet 3 weeks now almost, i might quit, not that im shedding, i think it does make my hair feel better but it also sometimes gives me a headache and makes me feel hazy/groggy, dont think i really want to put up with that forever, i might down the dose or stop altogether

----------


## bananana

> Yes i too just started my third bottle of trx2 today, im into week 7 of trx2, im on 4 / day
> , there is no damn way im quitting topical dht blockers till someone here except gutted gets real success, im not maintaining, this is the worrying bit, im still thinning, not happy about that
> 
> oh btw bananan im on cet 3 weeks now almost, i might quit, not that im shedding, i think it does make my hair feel better but it also sometimes gives me a headache and makes me feel hazy/groggy, dont think i really want to put up with that forever, i might down the dose or stop altogether


 Hmm thanks for the cet info. 
Well, I'll see, I got 400 tabs (10 mg), I'll dilute it in pure water and apply it after dermarolling, I'll try it for at least 3 months before I make any conclusions. If it provides some regrowth - I'll stick with it.

ps - do you apply cet once per day or twice? did you dilute it in water or alcohol? 
thanks

----------


## MrBlonde

> Yes i too just started my third bottle of trx2 today, im into week 7 of trx2, im on 4 / day
> , there is no damn way im quitting topical dht blockers till someone here except gutted gets real success, im not maintaining, this is the worrying bit, im still thinning, not happy about that
> 
> oh btw bananan im on cet 3 weeks now almost, i might quit, not that im shedding, i think it does make my hair feel better but it also sometimes gives me a headache and makes me feel hazy/groggy, dont think i really want to put up with that forever, i might down the dose or stop altogether


 Cob984, you seem to be on a lot of stuff.  TRX2, SP and cetirizine etc  All of these would induce a shed of some sort?  You also seem to drop treatments not so long into them, this can't be good either, if you experience a shed it could be a sign things are going to work but when you drop them its a big mistake, that hair lost might never come back.

I don't want to be critical but you seem impatient, hairloss is a slow hard struggle, any program takes 12 months of dedication before you know whether or not it will work.  Switching and dropping will only harm your efforts.  Your body could be  regulating for different substances that get introduced and taken away, it could be upregulating DHT due to the constant changes man.

----------


## Cob984

> Cob984, you seem to be on a lot of stuff.  TRX2, SP and cetirizine etc  All of these would induce a shed of some sort?  You also seem to drop treatments not so long into them, this can't be good either, if you experience a shed it could be a sign things are going to work but when you drop them its a big mistake, that hair lost might never come back.
> 
> I don't want to be critical but you seem impatient, hairloss is a slow hard struggle, any program takes 12 months of dedication before you know whether or not it will work.  Switching and dropping will only harm your efforts.  Your body could be  regulating for different substances that get introduced and taken away, it could be upregulating DHT due to the constant changes man.


 I am not on a lot of stuff,
TRX2 - 7 WKS
MSM - 9 wks
Topical saw p - 6+ months
Oral sp - dropped, only one iv dropped

Topical cet only 1 ml as an experiment and it hasnt induced a shed,

----------


## b0urna

hi guys, another quick update from me. Iv been using gutted's combo for around 2 months now. Iv added something else to my daily regime...vitamin D (Australian sun!) I have recently moved here for the next 3months, and managed to take my MSM/VITC with me on the plane so only had around 2days off. Anyway I'm unsure if it was to do with environmental change or jetlag or a delayed response from the minox/SP I stopped taking before I started this combo, but iv been shedding like crazy since I arrived here. I would usually be panicking more, but iv noticed the shedding hair is coming from all over my body, not just the areas on my head affected by MBP. 
Anyway i still have a big oil reduction, and can't say iv ever had much of an itch, so I'm still holding out hope and am going to stick with this as my last fight for my hair until a real treatment becomes available, hopefully in the form of an injection. Currently my hairs still in good shape, it's around 8" long, but I'm planning on getting it cut this weekend because the Ozzie sun is too hot to wear a mop! With shorter hair it should make any regrowth more apparent, whilst hopefully not making my thinning areas more obvious. 
Keep the updates coming people, the cure is coming but we will find it quicker working together (cheesy prep-talk) :-)
Gutted, I hope your right man!

----------


## ammin

I thinned froma NW 1.5 with thick hair to NW 6 diffuse in 5 months without any significant itching. Just want everyone to monitor their hair loss more carefully

----------


## Jcm800

> I thinned froma NW 1.5 with thick hair to NW 6 diffuse in 5 months without any significant itching. Just want everyone to monitor their hair loss more carefully


 That's rapid loss.  I hardly find any hairs in the shower, I'm losing it tho. Not easy to monitor hair fall always, unless obvious shedloads are falling out.

----------


## Cob984

> I thinned froma NW 1.5 with thick hair to NW 6 diffuse in 5 months without any significant itching. Just want everyone to monitor their hair loss more carefully


 youv got me really worried man, this is exactly what i have been rambling about, im not really shedding but im thinning rapidly, so im really confused,
but your experience might just push me back to dht blocking, 

how long were you on gutteds regime, the entire 5 months? 2? 3? let us know

----------


## MrBlonde

Wow thats rough ammin.  I have gotten very thin very quickly also.  What age are you?  I think once you get past thirty things really start to kick into high gear.  I gained a mature hairline about 4yrs ago and thinned at the crown and then it stopped but the rest of my hair was really thick.

Now its really thin.  Do you have any before and after pics of your situation?

----------


## Jcm800

Gutted -how old are you again please? How long have you been suffering with mpb?
Have you actually visually seen regrowth since using this combo, or do you 'think' you're experiencing it?
Thanks, just curious.

----------


## b0urna

> youv got me really worried man, this is exactly what i have been rambling about, im not really shedding but im thinning rapidly, so im really confused,
> but your experience might just push me back to dht blocking, 
> 
> how long were you on gutteds regime, the entire 5 months? 2? 3? let us know


 cob man you sound like you really want to jump back on the DHT blockers, I don't think anyone's gonna tell you otherwise, a lot of us are skeptical whether this will work or not, just remember this threads basically classed as experimental, a lot of us (me included) have put all stakes in and trusted gutted on this. Your hair is a big gamble to bet, your choice. I hate to refer to our hair as a betting chip, but for me I have limited options and need to buy time. It's a huge decision, as is with taking up any treatment, our bad hairloss options have forced us to grey solutions. SP gave me bad sides, min did nothing for me, fin is basically SP on roids and I'm 99% sure my body won't like it. Other viable options other than experimental treatments for me..None.

----------


## Cob984

> cob man you sound like you really want to jump back on the DHT blockers, I don't think anyone's gonna tell you otherwise, a lot of us are skeptical whether this will work or not, just remember this threads basically classed as experimental, a lot of us (me included) have put all stakes in and trusted gutted on this. Your hair is a big gamble to bet, your choice. I hate to refer to our hair as a betting chip, but for me I have limited options and need to buy time. It's a huge decision, as is with taking up any treatment, our bad hairloss options have forced us to grey solutions. SP gave me bad sides, min did nothing for me, fin is basically SP on roids and I'm 99% sure my body won't like it. Other viable options other than experimental treatments for me..None.


 im in the same boat as you man, Min im allergic to, SP gives me some sides and has mostly lost its effectiveness, at this point it slows mpb rather than stops it for me, at this point i am so desperate i am more concerned with my hair and I can tolerate a few sides though I think fin wont go down well with me for the same reason as you.

Im scared because im not seeing maintenance, im still thinning, im not shedding but thinning and im freaking out now listening to ammin;s story 

I will give this another couple weeks, work it for 3 months

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> im in the same boat as you man, Min im allergic to, SP gives me some sides and has mostly lost its effectiveness, at this point it slows mpb rather than stops it for me, at this point i am so desperate i am more concerned with my hair and I can tolerate a few sides though I think fin wont go down well with me for the same reason as you.
> 
> Im scared because im not seeing maintenance, im still thinning, im not shedding but thinning and im freaking out now listening to ammin;s story 
> 
> I will give this another couple weeks, work it for 3 months


 Been on this for a month - hair is still the same.

At what month did you guys notice the hairloss.

Btw I am on a lower dosage - 3k msm and vit c

----------


## StuckInARut

I jumped on this roughly two months ago. However, I am not mega dosing the MSM or Vitamin C and I am not using TRX2, just can't justify the high price. I never quit anything I was taking before I started and I know gutted really suggests taking this combo alone so my results are probably skewed. I haven't lost any itch although my head doesn't itch very much usually only when I comb it after I shower. My hair has been shedding a lot recently and I have lost quite a bit of density up front near the frontal hair line area and on the sides near my ears nowhere else. I do take a Saw Palmetto complex and have done so for nearly 5 months now, started 3 months before I added this combo. 

Now I can't say one way or another if this combo works since I am not really using it as directed but I have noticed other health benefits since taking it. Namely, my immunity is better and my joints feel great. My nails grow fast however I can't really say I noticed a faster hair growth or not. I will continue taking it for the reasons stated above but I hope it will also have a positive effect on my hair. My opinion is that results (if the directions are followed) will not be typical. Much like using Propecia or Minoxidil, results will vary from person to person. I am glad gutted has experienced some positive results but I look forward to someone else having some good news as well. He won't post pictures for his own personal reasons so we have only his word to go on.

----------


## Cob984

I noticed hair loss 12 months ago but am noticing dramatic worsening over the last 2 months in tandem with when i dropped oral saw palmetto and started on this, i am sure this combo is not causing the worsening, its the saw palmetto but i was on a smallish dose to begin with anyway, i have dropped sp in the middle for 1 or 2 weeks before but this has been the longest time iv been off it and nothing in this combo is countering the hair thinning yet, no significant shed, just a bigtime thin

----------


## Ginkosama

Guys who are shedding for 2 months now: in which hemisphere do you live ?

I am from Europe and I was doing quite great in the summer and it turned to sh*t in fall. Same thing last year, I seem to lose 2NW a year and one and a half in fall/winter only.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Guys who are shedding for 2 months now: in which hemisphere do you live ?
> 
> I am from Europe and I was doing quite great in the summer and it turned to sh*t in fall. Same thing last year, I seem to lose 2NW a year and one and a half in fall/winter only.


 Yeah Europe too Mate.  I was nice and thick in the summer too.  I guess those seasonal sheds are something we will have to dread once we get older.

----------


## Cob984

lol no this isnt a seasonal shed, last fall i was at my peak of hair power because i introduced saw palmetto and my hair wound back the clock to its teenage glory,

----------


## MrBlonde

> lol no this isnt a seasonal shed, last fall i was at my peak of hair power because i introduced saw palmetto and my hair wound back the clock to its teenage glory,


 Did SP bring your hair from thin to thick? and did you get any regrowth on it?  Was you hair as bad as it is now before you took SP?

You say you got bad sides from SP, what exactly happened? and how long was it before SP lost its effectiveness?

----------


## Cob984

Did SP bring your hair from thin to thick - Yes
did you get any regrowth on it - Not sure
 Was you hair as bad as it is now before you took SP - No but it was deteriorating rapidly and sp halted the slide

You say you got bad sides from SP, what exactly happened - I had gyno already, made it worse, lower libido, 

and how long was it before SP lost its effectiveness - Id say about 3-4 months, but since I have experimented a lot with the dosage, with the max being 320 mg a day, i was trying to find that sweet spot to keep hair and avoid or lessen sides, but it was only slowing me down, its effectiveness as a hair loss preventer was gone for good

Though my hair was in far far far better condition that now, now its in freefall

----------


## b0urna

I too can vouch for other benefits from taking MSM, much faster nail growth, aswell as my joints feeling great. Iv also had a few physical injuries while on MSM and I seemed to heal faster than usual. 
In terms of SP, my hair seemed to stop shedding almost instantly after first taking it orally, but alike Cob, it became ineffective after a few months. We shall all see in a few months if MSMs promise of hairgrowth can really combat MBP.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

out of responsibility i feel I should share my previous experience with sp and finasteride. Long story short, unnaceptable sexual sides. Even if you dont get them early on, you will at least have to stay on them 3+ years(thinking about cure time here). Those things really do havoc on your hormonal and just body systems in general. NOT EVER worth it IMO. That being said, some people do have really resistant dispositions to certain meds/herbals so maybe you are one of the lucky ones..

----------


## b0urna

Not sure if I believe these photos, especially in such a short timeframe, but has anyone experimented with topical MSM?

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...-this-pictures

----------


## ammin

I was on Gutted's combination for two months. Yes it has been rough. My parents havent seen me in two years. I was a thick NW 1 when they last saw me , my father is a NW 3 at 58 and the pace at which I am going, I might be extremely diffuse NW 6, bald essentially when I see them next. 

Thinking about future family pictures saddens me. However , I have just been recruited by the firm of my dreams, well almost so it has helped me cope with my dermatological deterioration.

----------


## Jcm800

> Not sure if I believe these photos, especially in such a short timeframe, but has anyone experimented with topical MSM?
> 
> http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...-this-pictures


 Looks interesting, gutted what's your opinion? ?

----------


## gutted

> Looks interesting, gutted what's your opinion? ?


 the link to those pictures was posted in the first page of this thread.

and should be a motivation to those that are taking msm!

----------


## gutted

> Starting Finasteride tommorow. I have lost a lot of ground in the last 5 months from NW 1.5 with thick hair to NW 6 Diffuse. My parents, significant other, friends and supervisors have pointed out the same to me.
> 
> I cannot rely on gutted's theory anymore which remains unsubstantiated by clinical evidence; that is not to stay I am discrediting it. For those of you experiencing gradual hairloss stick to his recommended regimen and please report back


 the following is what ammins regime consists of ->

FLuridil
Revivogen
TRX 2
Nizoral
MSM
Vit C
Vit D
B-Complex EOD 

90 &#37; of his regime consists of dht suppression yet he managed to thin out severley despite using stuff that supresses dht perfectly well...

anyway i did state dht suppression does not work with msm/C and trx2. Those that are doing this are not neccsarily wasting thier time/effort but will not achieve visbile/cosmetic benefits.
*This case should indicate to you that msm/C does not stop whatever dht suppression does.* MSM/C is best used alone.

Its lucky ammin, is using msm while taking those dht inhibiting substances, the fact that hes not experiencing an itch is a good sign that those hairs that shed should return i.e the msm prevented those hairs going into dormancy. This is the only invisible benefit hes just gained from msm.

Anyway finerstride may just worsen his condition in the long run, but good luck to him i hope he reports what happens to him on fin.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted -how old are you again please? How long have you been suffering with mpb?
> Have you actually visually seen regrowth since using this combo, or do you 'think' you're experiencing it?
> Thanks, just curious.


 24.
Suffering for 3 years.
Yes ive seen visbile regrowth, Diffuse areas filling in.

----------


## Jcm800

> the link to those pictures was posted in the first page of this thread.
> 
> and should be a motivation to those that are taking msm!


 But I'm asking about topical msm dude,think that's what gave that guy regrowth?

----------


## gutted

> But I'm asking about topical msm dude,think that's what gave that guy regrowth?


 probably both. If you like topicals, then theres no harm in giving it a try.

----------


## Jcm800

> probably both. If you like topicals, then theres no harm in giving it a try.


 If this combo gave me  half the results that fella appears to have got I'd be very content ..

----------


## StuckInARut

How do you make or where can you get topical MSM?

----------


## gutted

> If this combo gave me  half the results that fella appears to have got I'd be very content ..


 its difficult to tell if theres any new growth due to angle irrgeularities and hair length differneces.

But one thing is for sure hes maintained from baseline, although the timeframe "2months" is not really a decent length of time.

Even then if msm does have the ability to "maintenain or stop mpb" we wont know until many years on it...

----------


## gutted

> How do you make or where can you get topical MSM?


 http://www.iherb.com/Trimedica-Pure-...0-ml/3328?at=0

----------


## Jcm800

> its difficult to tell if theres any new growth due to angle irrgeularities and hair length differneces.
> 
> But one thing is for sure hes maintained from baseline, although the timeframe "2months" is not really a decent length of time.
> 
> Even then if msm does have the ability to "maintenain or stop mpb" we wont know until many years on it...


 I suppose like most others trying this stuff out - i'm looking for signs its going to help, only signs i can possibly see, are reduced dandruff - thats for sure - had a bad spell of that 2-3 weeks back, thats cleared up. And also i can see 3 or 4 tiny hairs coming thru - and i'm pretty sure (but not 101 % sure) they're not minitaurised shrinking hairs(as the area has been desolate for quite some time), but i'm watching them every day and praying they continue to flourish.

----------


## gutted

> I suppose like most others trying this stuff out - i'm looking for signs its going to help, only signs i can possibly see, are reduced dandruff - thats for sure - had a bad spell of that 2-3 weeks back, thats cleared up. And also i can see 3 or 4 tiny hairs coming thru - and i'm pretty sure (but not 101 % sure) they're not minitaurised shrinking hairs(as the area has been desolate for quite some time), but i'm watching them every day and praying they continue to flourish.


 ive noticed many of these too, although its pretty much impossible to tell if it is new growth or hairs that shed in the last months returning.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Lol, I get a chuckle thinking about us all peering at our miniscule hairs in the mirror cursing them to grow  :Smile:

----------


## StuckInARut

> http://www.iherb.com/Trimedica-Pure-...0-ml/3328?at=0


 Thanks for the link.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Is that the msm you are using gutted?

----------


## MrBlonde

> Thanks for the link.


 Take note that thats a liquid MSM that is meant to be taken orally, if I'm not mistaken you asked for a topical.

The site advised on two teaspoons a day.

----------


## Kiwi

> Lol, I get a chuckle thinking about us all peering at our miniscule hairs in the mirror cursing them to grow


 Some people say that when you talk to plants growing that those ones grow better... don't curse your hairs... praise them every day and encourage them to reach up for the stars...  :Wink:

----------


## StayThick

12-15 Grams of MSM?? Don't you guys think that is too much. I checked out that link its the gentleman with insane regrowth in 2 months taking 10 grams of MSM..

I currently started taking 3 grams because I was getting sharp headaches with any higher dose. I'll increase to 9 grams once my body adjusts...but to clarify..gutted how many grams of MSM are you ingesting daily? Also, is it safe to take such high concentrations of MSM for extended periods of time?

I understand many have tried answering this, I just don't want to take a supplement long-term which may cause terrible side effects, or worse cancer.

Anybody concerned or experiencing any sides from high MSM doses? I also just started the Trx2. Figured its worth a shot. Stay thick up top gentlemen.

----------


## Jcm800

How that fella had insane regrowth in two months god knows. Over three months for me on the combo and about eight on trx2 and I'm lucky if I've had three hairs pop up. They're probably miniaturized anyway and it's wishful thinking  :Frown:

----------


## Cob984

i really doubt that guy has mpb, either his hair was bad cause of sulfur deficiency or it just wasnt growing

----------


## Cob984

Btw I dropped revivogen and started a new product called Keratene shampoo, google it yourselves, so far good decision,
my hair looks and feels so much better, iv only used in thrice and looks like its quite potent and i feel slightly bloated but nothing i would stop the product over,
Im gona use this while praying this msm trx2 combo does it for me internally, atleast now im not worsening, very relieved mentally

----------


## Jcm800

Do you mean keratin?

----------


## Cob984

no Keratene,
google Keratene EU,

its a shampoo consisting of beta-sitesorols i believe, 5ar inhibition

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks ill await further reports from yourself before investing

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

so I started this on Dec 1 with 3g msm/1g vit and will start increasing every week. But in reading up on msm, it is non-toxic(water soluable) because the body takes in what it can and pisses out the rest. It seems taking 9g all at once doesn't make much sense as theres no way the body is absorbing even half of that. Wouldn't it be better to take 3g or so a few times a day so your body has a constant flow of msm to work with?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> so I started this on Dec 1 with 3g msm/1g vit and will start increasing every week. But in reading up on msm, it is non-toxic(water soluable) because the body takes in what it can and pisses out the rest. It seems taking 9g all at once doesn't make much sense as theres no way the body is absorbing even half of that. Wouldn't it be better to take 3g or so a few times a day so your body has a constant flow of msm to work with?


 I thought exactly that.

You piss the rest out.

----------


## bananana

> so I started this on Dec 1 with 3g msm/1g vit and will start increasing every week. But in reading up on msm, it is non-toxic(water soluable) because the body takes in what it can and pisses out the rest. It seems taking 9g all at once doesn't make much sense as theres no way the body is absorbing even half of that. Wouldn't it be better to take 3g or so a few times a day so your body has a constant flow of msm to work with?


 My thoughts exactly!

I'm taking 4-5 grams in the morning and 3-4 grams in the evening, thinking of taking 4x 2 grams during the day.

----------


## StuckInARut

This is exactly why I take my vitamins broken up throughout the day. I take some with each meal 3x a day. I wouldn't even consider taking all that at one time it would totally drop kick my stomach.

----------


## b0urna

This approach of splitting the msm intakes throughout the day seems to make more sense to me aswell, so iv adopted this. I'm at around 3 months into this combo now, my hair looks pretty good, and I'm finding it harder to see my balding spot on the back of my head with my trusty 2mirror-in-the-bathroom technique haha, but this might just be me imagining things, its also hard to see any changes clearly with long hair. I'm still noticing massive oil reduction, rapid nail growth, among other joint and muscular benefits. Iv started adding MSM to my conditioner for topical use as it can't hurt, seems to make my scalp feel fresh. Right now I'm still shedding a fair amount of hair in the shower each morning though, so I'm hoping this will slow, as right now I'm finding it hard to believe I'm growing as much hair as I'm losing. I'll stick with this though, clinging to hope. 
Gutted, are things still improving for you? have you dropped the TRX2, and I presume you will be taking this combo forever, or until a real cure comes around? Thanks

----------


## fred970

I'm currently taking 1g of MSM with 1g of vitamin C. This is more to get prepared for my first FUE. I have also been using 5&#37; minoxidil for more than 3 years now. I can't use any DHT inhibitor (not even Nizoral) as I'm very prone to gynecomastia.
I'm currently diffuse NW5 with the hairline still intact.  I know 1g of each is not much but I'll report if I see any change in my hair status.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> This is exactly why I take my vitamins broken up throughout the day. I take some with each meal 3x a day. I wouldn't even consider taking all that at one time it would totally drop kick my stomach.


 Gutted is taking them all in one go.

So this is good news, it means that we can take less MSM than 9g. Simply because gutted is not getting that much in.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, are things still improving for you? have you dropped the TRX2, and I presume you will be taking this combo forever, or until a real cure comes around? Thanks


 guys, been away. not had time to read up on whats going on.

anyway to answer your question yes im still on the trx2, i plan on taking trx2 for one more year and then dropping it and maintain what i have with msm/C.

As for my hair its improving (diffuse areas filling in), but at a steady slow pace. Im monitoring this every 3 months. Monitoring it on a week by week basis is pointless.

I really do believe msm/C is all i need to maintain what i have, even at a lower dosage of 3 grams. 

all i can advise for those that are following it faithfully is give it time. MSM/C is likley to maintain what you currently have (imo for life), its also possible to provide you with mild regrowth but i cant confirm this. Technically it isnt regrowth - *its synchronisation of the hair cycle making it appear as if you have achieved some regrowth.*

----------


## sizzlinghairs

> guys, been away. not had time to read up on whats going on.
> 
> anyway to answer your question yes im still on the trx2, i plan on taking trx2 for one more year and then dropping it and maintain what i have with msm/C.
> 
> As for my hair its improving (diffuse areas filling in), but at a steady slow pace. Im monitoring this every 3 months. Monitoring it on a week by week basis is pointless.
> 
> I really do believe msm/C is all i need to maintain what i have, even at a lower dosage of 3 grams. 
> 
> all i can advise for those that are following it faithfully is give it time. MSM/C is likley to maintain what you currently have (imo for life), its also possible to provide you with mild regrowth but i cant confirm this. Technically it isnt regrowth - *its synchronisation of the hair cycle making it appear as if you have achieved some regrowth.*


 .. Feels like you are over complicating the explanation. Simply put, do you feel this combo with the trx2 can turn vellous hairs terminal?

----------


## Cob984

i dont think this combo is gona regrow squat, maintain maybe though from my experience its not doing that either

----------


## bananana

> i dont think this combo is gona regrow squat, maintain maybe though from my experience its not doing that either


 give it TIME bro.

I think nothing major is to be seen before at least 6 months. As I said 13 times already in this topic - it does "work" for a bunch of us here, but no regrowth so far.

----------


## Jcm800

Sailing into the unknown with this on the goodship gutted. Hmm, I do think my existing hair is growing at a faster rate, don't think it's thickening up though, its a waiting game folks as usual.

----------


## b0urna

> guys, been away. not had time to read up on whats going on.
> 
> anyway to answer your question yes im still on the trx2, i plan on taking trx2 for one more year and then dropping it and maintain what i have with msm/C.
> 
> As for my hair its improving (diffuse areas filling in), but at a steady slow pace.


 Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. What Norwood are you btw? Sorry for all the questions, but I think a lot of us are curious as there aren't many reports of MSM being used to treat MBP, and those that have used it are also applying other treatments. It's hard for us to just drop all proven DHT inhibitors and/or growth stimulants in favour of an experimental treatment that 'may' work in 6-12months time, for a lot of us that's a few norwood scales lost if this treatment doesn't work. 
Personally I have faith in this, having experienced a lot of the effects you have described, also I think MSM acts as a thickener in my conditioner so making my hair look better while it (hopefully) grows/maintains is always a benefit! 
Is anyone else applying topically?

----------


## Irishamerica

> Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. What Norwood are you btw? Sorry for all the questions, but I think a lot of us are curious as there aren't many reports of MSM being used to treat MBP, and those that have used it are also applying other treatments. It's hard for us to just drop all proven DHT inhibitors and/or growth stimulants in favour of an experimental treatment that 'may' work in 6-12months time, for a lot of us that's a few norwood scales lost if this treatment doesn't work. 
> Personally I have faith in this, having experienced a lot of the effects you have described, also I think MSM acts as a thickener in my conditioner so making my hair look better while it (hopefully) grows/maintains is always a benefit! 
> Is anyone else applying topically?


 hey did you just pour a few grams of the msm into your conditoner ?? i have also heard of people putting it in a  water bottle with destilled water  and rinsing  there hair in it ..Has any tried this ?

----------


## Cob984

wanted to ask all you guys here, is anyone maintaining with this?
has anyone been on this combo long enough to say yes, their hair is getting no worse? 
i know you guys are seeing less itch etc but anything else?

----------


## Jcm800

Tbh no I'm not maintaining, it's growing faster it seems, but I'm seeing more scalp here and there. Been on it over three months and trx alone around 8 months. 
Still optimistic tho and open minded, it's hard tho.

----------


## Cob984

this is exactly what im noticing too, i am worried the msm is giving a false illusion that all is under control because of longer hair and more styling options, but when im in the shower with wet hair i can see a much grimmer picture

----------


## Jcm800

Hmm im running out of styling options and have been contemplating a damn buzz cut for the first time in a very long time. BUT, The little area I've mentioned before - centre parting  still has small signs of renewed activity so I'm clinging to the hope that it's a positive sign..

----------


## StayThick

Although Gutted sounds intelligent and his combo seems like it could work...I think it's a lost cause people. I have been on this combo (msm, vitC, TRX2) for only 1 month so I can't speak for it's true effectiveness...BUT I can tell after only 1 month the illusion of it working is showing itself by simply just growing my DHT resistant sides and back extremely quick, yet leaving the top (MPB areas) thin and lifeless. In fact, the combo is growing my hair so quick after just 1 month I look retarded because of the texture and color difference between the sides and top of my head...

For the first time in my life I had my barber say he had to cut the sides shorter then usual because the color and texture is more darker and thicker then the top and that it looks ridiculous, so he needed to adjust. My heart sank and realized all the money, all the effort, all the dedication I have put in to save my hair the last 4 years is coming to slow end. I am sure some could relate, as today was disheartening for me. It only validated that my MPB is progressing and nothing is slowing it down.

I appreciate gutted bringing this combo to the table and like everything else I have tried, I will do this for 1 year...but as of NOW..the only thing I see is thickening, darkening, and a quick growing rate of my DHT resistant hair, yet the slow progression of the entire top of head continuing. Sorry for the rant fellas', but I feel I'm a good looking dude and it's an effin shame going bald will strip my looks and youth from me. This combo works great for people NOT GOING BALD IMHO ...Rant done...depressing.

----------


## Jcm800

I think StayThick has summed this up pretty well. gutted is a clever guy, but not sure this is going to save our asses.

----------


## bananana

I don't know what to say guys.

If less itch and less oil (less dandruff) doesn't mean anything, then this does nothing. I don't see a change in my hair density, BUT I "kind of" see the hairs are thicker at the scalp area than they are at the top - but that just might be normal, I don't know.

I see that in hairs that are 5-7 cm long, meaning they started growing before I started with msm.

I believe there is something to this, and I'm going to stick with it, I hope to see more results at 6 months and 1 year mark. It's been just 2.5 months for now.

----------


## StuckInARut

Just like anything else used for hair loss it's a waiting game and requires patience unfortunately. I take 4g each of MSM/Vitamin C daily and have not noticed much change with my hair however the benefits throughout the rest of my body has been simply amazing. It's only been about 2.5 months for me so far so I plan to stick it out for at least 6 to see if my scalp responds. If not I will just lower my daily dose to around 2g each just for whole body maintenance since I see those positive results.

----------


## gutted

> Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. What Norwood are you btw? Sorry for all the questions, but I think a lot of us are curious as there aren't many reports of MSM being used to treat MBP, and those that have used it are also applying other treatments. It's hard for us to just drop all proven DHT inhibitors and/or growth stimulants in favour of an experimental treatment that 'may' work in 6-12months time, for a lot of us that's a few norwood scales lost if this treatment doesn't work. 
> Personally I have faith in this, having experienced a lot of the effects you have described, also I think MSM acts as a thickener in my conditioner so making my hair look better while it (hopefully) grows/maintains is always a benefit! 
> Is anyone else applying topically?


 i was originally nw2 diffuse, however the diffuseness is filling in slowly.
Yes i understand its difficult to drop proven dht inhibitors, but not using them is paramount for the combo to be successful. Also i must stress the importance of time with the combo. Stop obsessing about your hair every day, instead every 3 months track progress, take pictures, run your hands through your hair to see what the density was like pre and after the combo and if its improving.

The only thing i can say msm/C is good for - is maintaining what you have and no further loss from baseline, of course this must be used alone without dht inhibitors to visibilly witness this effect.

bear in mind with the combo you WILL *shed* hair (at normal acceptable levels) you WILL NOT *lose* hair, there is a differnece between shed & lose so if you see hairs falling out in the shower it will eventually be at normal levels. This should not in anyway dishearten you that the combo is not working.

----------


## gutted

> Although Gutted sounds intelligent and his combo seems like it could work...I think it's a lost cause people. I have been on this combo (msm, vitC, TRX2) for only 1 month so I can't speak for it's true effectiveness...BUT I can tell after only 1 month the illusion of it working is showing itself by simply just growing my DHT resistant sides and back extremely quick, yet leaving the top (MPB areas) thin and lifeless. In fact, the combo is growing my hair so quick after just 1 month I look retarded because of the texture and color difference between the sides and top of my head...
> 
> For the first time in my life I had my barber say he had to cut the sides shorter then usual because the color and texture is more darker and thicker then the top and that it looks ridiculous, so he needed to adjust. My heart sank and realized all the money, all the effort, all the dedication I have put in to save my hair the last 4 years is coming to slow end. I am sure some could relate, as today was disheartening for me. It only validated that my MPB is progressing and nothing is slowing it down.
> 
> I appreciate gutted bringing this combo to the table and like everything else I have tried, I will do this for 1 year...but as of NOW..the only thing I see is thickening, darkening, and a quick growing rate of my DHT resistant hair, yet the slow progression of the entire top of head continuing. Sorry for the rant fellas', but I feel I'm a good looking dude and it's an effin shame going bald will strip my looks and youth from me. This combo works great for people NOT GOING BALD IMHO ...Rant done...depressing.


 you were recently on saw palmetto right?

dht suppression will affect you in a negative way. You need to allow 3 months for this to balance out and then TIME just make sure your still on the msm.

----------


## gutted

guys, 

For those using it alone *patience is a virtue.*

monitor your situation every 3 months, time is very important here. Chances are you do not have any other option availble to you (fin+minox is out of the question) so you would go bald anyway, give the regime a solid chance, you have nothing to lose.

For those on dht suppressors - *ive already stated you should not expect visbile results.*

*Visibile results dictate that the combo/or any treatment is working (for most of you anyway) others will have invisibile results of decreased oil output and itching*...is there really any point in carrying on if your not seeing the visible results you crave??

once you drop the dht suppressors this becomes a very very long process. Will probably take around 18 months to fully see what msm/C will do for you guys.

----------


## gutted

> .. Feels like you are over complicating the explanation. Simply put, do you feel this combo with the trx2 can turn vellous hairs terminal?


 yes i believe trx2 does work to reactivate dormant/vellus hairs although the potency of trx2 is questionable to have any efficacy in the temporal regions. Best results are obtained in the scalp/mid sections and quite possibly in the frontal regions just behind the hairiline. One thing i have noticed with trx2/msm/c is my centre parting was diffuse and widening, now it has almost filled in with the exception of the frontal region area, i will monitor activity here and see what happens in a few months time.

IMO MSM/C is what stops mpb. You do not need to use trx2 if you dont want the regrowth.

----------


## Jcm800

It's my centre parting that's becoming more noticeable, definitely widening. But this combo is all I've got. Onwards with the programme..

PS gutted, you're not at all convinced minoxidil would work better along side this treatment, no?

----------


## Jcm800

Oh and gutted - thanks for putting up with a few of us all whining and putting this treatment down to some degree. I hope this time next year we'll all be encouraging folks to try it too..

----------


## gutted

> It's my centre parting that's becoming more noticeable, definitely widening. But this combo is all I've got. Onwards with the programme..
> 
> PS gutted, you're not at all convinced minoxidil would work better along side this treatment, no?


 it will work great, although you wont know which is working and which isnt. Using minoxidil is better than supressing dht.

----------


## Jcm800

> it will work great, although you wont know which is working and which isnt. Using minoxidil is better than supressing dht.


 at this stage, if someone told me washing my hair with piss, and rubbing horse manure on my head gave me results, but only one was working - i'd carry on doing both.

But in my case, i dont know if minox is viable, didnt do much for me before - just wondered if combined it might boost it's efficacy

----------


## gutted

> Oh and gutted - thanks for putting up with a few of us all whining and putting this treatment down to some degree. I hope this time next year we'll all be encouraging folks to try it too..


 lool its not a problem. I can understand hair loss is pretty shit to have, and because this is experimental and not proven in any way some of you are sceptical if it works or not.

If the combo doesnt work for a person, then simply what they wanted the combo to do, didnt materialise, (although i still maintain it works for everyone if folllowed as directed but *time* is really needed here) Its important to set your expectations on what you want it to do.

There are variables to consider also - some will percieve it to work others will not - the people who are on dht blockers or recently dropped them are the people who will most likley think this isnt working but in fact was "working" all along they just hadnt witnessed the visibile side of things just yet. Its very important to use it without any kind of dht suppression.

I also need to point out those who wrecked their hair by going on finerstride/dht blocking *will* require a *minimium* of 12-18 months to see changes in thier hair - every 3 months you should see density increasing exponentially (once off dht blocking). I advise taking pictures for your own reference, every 3 months.

There is nothing more to do than play the waiting game. Dont get impatient and start blocking dht again as you will be back to square one.

----------


## gutted

> at this stage, if someone told me washing my hair with piss, and rubbing horse manure on my head gave me results, but only one was working - i'd carry on doing both.
> 
> But in my case, i dont know if minox is viable, didnt do much for me before - just wondered if combined it might boost it's efficacy


 lool.

the only way to find out is try it and see what happens, it *could* work.

----------


## Jcm800

in my case im not ready to contemplate Fin, dont think i ever will be. Too much of a gamble. So, really it's this combo alone, or with Minox for me - if that fails - it's short back and shine time for me.

----------


## gutted

> in my case im not ready to contemplate Fin, dont think i ever will be. Too much of a gamble. So, really it's this combo alone, or with Minox for me - if that fails - it's short back and shine time for me.


 whatever treatment you decide to use, stick with it & give it *time*.

----------


## StayThick

> in my case im not ready to contemplate Fin, dont think i ever will be. Too much of a gamble. So, really it's this combo alone, or with Minox for me - if that fails - it's short back and shine time for me.


 JCM: if there is any treatment I would beg you to avoid it would be FIN. I was so desperate 1.5 years ago I took the plunge and it was the most body altering poison I ever consumed in my life.

I won't go into detail on the horrific sides, but it took me 8 months to get back to 85%, and I'm one of the few lucky ones. I suspect I'll be at 100% once I hit a full year post FIN. I don't mind being the Guinea pig, stick to your guns..avoid that at all costs.

----------


## Jcm800

Tks StayThick - i won't be taking it, i sit on the fence and observe ppl's posts about it, too risky, hope you make a full recovery dude. I know a guy in real life thats been on it for about 5 years, he's a wreck - but won't accept it's down to the Fin. Dr's can't help him, he's lost his girlfriend, jobs, is on anti-depressants etc, and his hair never really benefited far as i can see - his exp alone frightens the life outta me.

----------


## Jairus

Gutted

I was wondering how MSM and vit c can hold on to what you have if they dont have DHT suppressing abilities? What mechanism allows them to be beneficial?

Thanks

J

----------


## sizzlinghairs

I know Ive asked this once but just want to get a better consensus: Who here is getting more body hair from MSM/trx2? 

Got a comment from my GF in the shower today "do you have more chest hair?" Im already hairy so I just thought "damnit."

----------


## Cob984

I have tons of more body hair and am also naturally very hairy, so yes it annoys me, which is why im now down to 5-6g of msm a day, i think its the msm and not trx2,

On Fin, i prob wont take it either but i think not blocking dht at all thro a topical or saw palmetto or beta sitoserol or niz is also probably not so smart

----------


## Jcm800

Can't say I've got noticeably hairier, my pubes might be bushier tho lol

----------


## Cob984

guys an update of the keratene product, 
I used it and it defn helped the hair but i got some not so nice sides,
i was pretty much in a daze like feeling after using the serum, the shampoo is still ok,
makes me feel like im numb to feeling or something, big shame im so sensitive,

However, it seems like saw palmetto is not a 5ar inhibitor after all, if i got those sides from topical 5ar inhibitor vs not getting it from oral and topical sp, they probably work differently, 

so my regimen now is just the trx2 and msm/C, my temples still getting owned, and i continue to find that elusive dht blocker that i can tolerate, might just hop back on sp

----------


## Ginkosama

One month in : I am not hairier, well body hair may be longer but that's it. Nothing dramatic.

----------


## Jairus

> Gutted
> 
> I was wondering how MSM and vit c can hold on to what you have if they dont have DHT suppressing abilities? What mechanism allows them to be beneficial?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> J


 Anyone?

Hello? McFly?

----------


## b0urna

> hey did you just pour a few grams of the msm into your conditoner ?? i have also heard of people putting it in a  water bottle with destilled water  and rinsing  there hair in it ..Has any tried this ?


 Yup. Just threw in 10grams give or take into my bottle of conditioner, il see how it goes, and its cheap enough not to worry even if it doesn't make an impact. Would be good to see more people trying it topically, without other treatments involved, and with different vehicles / concoctions.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Yup. Just threw in 10grams give or take into my bottle of conditioner, il see how it goes, and its cheap enough not to worry even if it doesn't make an impact. Would be good to see more people trying it topically, without other treatments involved, and with different vehicles / concoctions.


 So you just crushed the pills down or dissolved them in water first before addding them to your conditioner?

----------


## b0urna

> So you just crushed the pills down or dissolved them in water first before addding them to your conditioner?


 Nah, iv got pure MSM powder, mixed it up with some water then used a funnell to pour it into the bottle, gave it all a good shake and hey presto  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jcm800

Is there any evidence of MSM being used topically actually working?  Or it just a random experiment?

----------


## b0urna

> Is there any evidence of MSM being used topically actually working?  Or it just a random experiment?


 Iv read a few random posts on forums about it being used topically, I'm sure there's scientific papers floating around, but I'm not going to post links to anything I don't understand haha so yea maybe more of an experiment, fitting for this sub forum then. One thing to note, even though iv only been applying for around 2 weeks, you can really notice the cosmetic effect on hair instantly (after the first wash). I have fairly long (obv longer in the non MBP affected areas) curly hair that curles up tightly giving an appearance of short hair, but this makes it straight and slightly wavey, and appears visibly longer. Anyway nothing to note about hairloss change as yet, too early to notice changes orally or topically.

----------


## Cob984

Starting week 9 of trx2 and 11 of msm/vitc and i havent seen anything, no improvement or stabilization whatsoever, spending 50 euros a bottle with a messed up exchange rate, i mean come on, you are ****ing bankrupting me whitfield but i have no choice, i hate this industry

----------


## bananana

> Starting week 9 of trx2 and 11 of msm/vitc and i havent seen anything, no improvement or stabilization whatsoever, spending 50 euros a bottle with a messed up exchange rate, i mean come on, you are ****ing bankrupting me whitfield but i have no choice, i hate this industry


  :Frown:  sorry to hear that mate. be patient, maybe changes will occur in the future.
ps, where do you live? I've found a GREAT and cheap supplier from germany.

----------


## Cob984

> sorry to hear that mate. be patient, maybe changes will occur in the future.
> ps, where do you live? I've found a GREAT and cheap supplier from germany.


 India, of trx2?
Just started me 125 mg dose of oral saw palmetto extract a day, its minimal i know but it will give me mental peace if nothing else,

----------


## bananana

> India, of trx2?
> Just started me 125 mg dose of oral saw palmetto extract a day, its minimal i know but it will give me mental peace if nothing else,


 Oh, no sorry - I meant supplier of msm. But shipping to india would probably be a big figure...  :Frown:

----------


## gutted

> Gutted
> 
> I was wondering how MSM and vit c can hold on to what you have if they dont have DHT suppressing abilities? What mechanism allows them to be beneficial?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> J


 i speculate it addresses the real reason people bald (excess pgd2 & its related excess enzymes).

The source for that pgd2 is speculated to be DHT -> PGD2, which may be ONE source, i believe there are *multiple sources* for this excess pgd2 which msm/C addresses.

we will not know if this stops mpb unless a scientific experiement is done which i doubt will ever happen.

Im increasingly believing MPB is a *skin disorder*.

----------


## Cob984

skin disorder? ffs , hairloss is a skin disorder if u dont have mpb 

in any case, anyone else having success in terms of holding firm on this combo? dont mention the less itch and other 'invisible', anything visual from people in it over 10 weeks?

----------


## fred970

2 Weeks in and still no reduction in oil production.

----------


## b0urna

> in any case, anyone else having success in terms of holding firm on this combo? dont mention the less itch and other 'invisible', anything visual from people in it over 10 weeks?


 10 weeks isn't long enough to notice any visible effects from any hairloss treatments man. I'm contemplating cutting my hair short, the sides of my head has longer and thicker hair than the top and its starting to look abit silly, plus it will make any results from this clear to see, though I'm hesitant as I'm unsure if it will ever grow back. Not expecting to see a hair improvement anytime in the next few months, but a decrease in shedding would give me confirmation that somethings working.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> skin disorder? ffs , hairloss is a skin disorder if u dont have mpb 
> 
> in any case, anyone else having success in terms of holding firm on this combo? dont mention the less itch and other 'invisible', anything visual from people in it over 10 weeks?


 2 month mark I believe.

Hair is still the same.

----------


## Jcm800

I've become a bit spotty lately.  A large one between my chest is unusual, hmm perhaps it's the MSM doing a detox or something?

----------


## StayThick

> 10 weeks isn't long enough to notice any visible effects from any hairloss treatments man. I'm contemplating cutting my hair short, the sides of my head has longer and thicker hair than the top and its starting to look abit silly, plus it will make any results from this clear to see, though I'm hesitant as I'm unsure if it will ever grow back. Not expecting to see a hair improvement anytime in the next few months, but a decrease in shedding would give me confirmation that somethings working.


 This describes my situation to a T. I'm only 4 weeks in, but I'm not expecting ANy results from this combo. If I can maintain, I'd label it a success.

As it stands, my sides are growing at a ridiculous rate..and is revealing a darker shade of brown compared to my MPB attacked follicles on top. I'm starting to look silly. I just cut the sides to a 5 and top a 6 and I look respectful. Very depressing.

----------


## Cob984

so all you skeptical people, not expecting success, are still counting only on this? you are not using anything else on your hair?

----------


## Jcm800

I'm going to slap minoxidil on my crown once a day, think it might be beneficial. Cob you can't expect this to work after a few weeks, we have to give it time. We all want results, but hell ill make a judgement at six months minimum personally

----------


## Cob984

its too bad im allergic to minoxidil so its a no go for me, I will continue with 125mg of oral saw palmetto then, and also purchased a new hair oil, the divine herbal one, 

The thing is i am not stabilizing, far from it, that is depressing, im not expecting miracles in 10 weeks but i atleast expect to see this nightmare on hold.

----------


## StayThick

> so all you skeptical people, not expecting success, are still counting only on this? you are not using anything else on your hair?


 Cob: I'm still using Minox 1x daily due to heavy bags side, plus Neogenic (which I believe will yield nothing) + trx2 and this MSM/VitC combo.

Only reason I jumped on this was because the Minox is starting to lose its effectiveness as far as maintaining. To date, I have never experienced regrowth from lost hair from any baldness treatment out there, including Propecia which I regrettably tried for a year.

I try every treatment for a year before I make any conclusions. I will do the same with this combo, although I'm not holding my breath.

----------


## TheBadger

> My itch reached a very intense level before subsiding.  It was itchy all over, all day long.  Now I would say it has almost been completely irradicated.  
> 
> Maybe this program compounds the itch somewhat before beating it hence the increased sensation?  I can understand a couple of you who are considering dropping out, it would be heartbreaking to waste all this time and hair on something that doesn't work but thats the risk we take with any regeim.


 Any idea how long that took for you? I've been picking up my dose pretty slowly over the past month and a bit (8 days of 1.5g, 10 days of 2.25g, now on my 17th day of 3g, all with 1g of VitC). Oil production seems to be way down all over my hair considering I had the dreaded super dry straw effect (again, all over) but like everyone else conditioner fixed that up after the first wash. Itch isn't down in the slightest though, if anything it's worse. Much like you described it it's pretty much there all day, I can only try my best to take my mind off it. Not on anything else, never taken anything other than a couple of weeks of minoxidil a few months ago which didn't agree with me at all (awful chest pains, dropped it, picked it up again a few weeks later, similar thing happened again, dropped it again. 100% back to normal now though.) Never used Nizoral etc either. 

I could try raising the dose but I'm a bit reluctant to do so at the moment seen as I'm still not sure whether a couple of other issues I have are related to starting this (bunch of weird little red lumps on my fingers like I've been bitten by something but nowhere near as swollen - though one was at one point but has since calmed down, and a bit of eye discomfort which again which has largely subsided but is there every so often). Could well be completely unrelated and it's just that thing of starting something new and blaming everything you get on it even if it would have happened anyway) but I feel a bit nervous about raising the dose any further until I'm rid of them.

----------


## Cob984

just took a picture of my crown today and got a panic attack, its thinning like mad, in addition to my temples, this is one of the most depressing periods of my life,

I think im done guys, my battle is over, im screwed, i will contine msm+trx2 till the end of month 3 which is 3 weeks away, and then consider how to incorporate dht blockers which give me sides so i dont know how that would work,

in other words im fked, this treatment is clearly not doing shit

----------


## bananana

> just took a picture of my crown today and got a panic attack, its thinning like mad, in addition to my temples, this is one of the most depressing periods of my life,
> 
> I think im done guys, my battle is over, im screwed, i will contine msm+trx2 till the end of month 3 which is 3 weeks away, and then consider how to incorporate dht blockers which give me sides so i dont know how that would work,
> 
> in other words im fked, this treatment is clearly not doing shit


  :Frown: 

I'm sorry this hasn't done anything positive to you.
Gutted what do you say about these cases?

I'm sure it's doing good to me (unless I suffer from delusions), I would even say my crown is thicker.

PS, I'm also using cetirizine for the past 2 weeks.

----------


## MrBlonde

Some big claims by gutted lately.  Vitc & MSM are enough to maintain for life.  I hope so, this would be great.

I am still on this regeim and still shedding at the hairline and not too much anywhere else but this was the case before hand but the hair is thinning a lot.  I plan to update you all at 5 months and at 6 months if I don't reach the steps to success Gutted laid out I will consider dropping this. I am almost through my third bottle of TRX2 right now.

Funnily enough the last week the itch returned but has gone again.  The only change I made was taking 3g doses of MSM three times a day rather than altogether in one 9g batch.

----------


## brooks1089

I'm looking to start on this and was wondering what the best regimen seems to be. Thanks!

----------


## the_dude78

It does sound a little too good to be true;

For decades scientists have tried to come up with a cure for hair loss, and now some random guy on the internet has done it?

Besides, wasn't the study on MSM and hair loss done with topical MSM and not oral?

And also, any pictures to back this up?


That's all.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Some big claims by gutted lately.  Vitc & MSM are enough to maintain for life.  I hope so, this would be great.
> 
> I am still on this regeim and still shedding at the hairline and not too much anywhere else but this was the case before hand but the hair is thinning a lot.  I plan to update you all at 5 months and at 6 months if I don't reach the steps to success Gutted laid out I will consider dropping this. I am almost through my third bottle of TRX2 right now.
> 
> Funnily enough the last week the itch returned but has gone again.  The only change I made was taking 3g doses of MSM three times a day rather than altogether in one 9g batch.


 My hair was really itchy 3g+

----------


## b0urna

> just took a picture of my crown today and got a panic attack, its thinning like mad, in addition to my temples, this is one of the most depressing periods of my life,
> 
> I think im done guys, my battle is over, im screwed, i will contine msm+trx2 till the end of month 3 which is 3 weeks away, and then consider how to incorporate dht blockers which give me sides so i dont know how that would work,
> 
> in other words im fked, this treatment is clearly not doing shit


 Cob it sounds like you swap out treatments more often than I change socks! but seriously, if I'm not mistaken your on and have been on DHT blockers (oral/topical sp, dht blocking shampoos) at times within the past 3 months, despite gutted advising you against it for this regime to work, he also stated you will have to wait longer than 3 months to see visible changes using this combo alone. A lot of us are in the same boat, if this fails for me, I too am ****ed as I get sides with DHT blockers, but I'm playing the patient game.

----------


## ovoxo

almost three months on 9g MSM, 3g Vit c everyday - as for the itching well i guess it is lowered but still present (although still might be something else than mpb cause I itch all over the scalp), body hair got certainly longer, I had finger joint pain which is gone, hair grows faster, but can't tell if it helped my mpb for now but I will continue with this regime at least I'll try to complete one year

----------


## Cob984

> Cob it sounds like you swap out treatments more often than I change socks! but seriously, if I'm not mistaken your on and have been on DHT blockers (oral/topical sp, dht blocking shampoos) at times within the past 3 months, despite gutted advising you against it for this regime to work, he also stated you will have to wait longer than 3 months to see visible changes using this combo alone. A lot of us are in the same boat, if this fails for me, I too am ****ed as I get sides with DHT blockers, but I'm playing the patient game.


 Ya right, gutted is some divine that knows everything, 
I have not been on any oral dht blockers since i started this regimen except for when i freaked out in the middle and took 1-2 capsules of saw palmetto, topical sp yes, once a day app of a few drops, thats it, this is hardly an excuse for this regime failing,
thoughj i am sure gutted will come here and claim its the reason for me not seeing success which is a joke

----------


## MrBlonde

> *Ya right, gutted is some divine that knows everything*, 
> I have not been on any oral dht blockers since i started this regimen except for when i freaked out in the middle and took 1-2 capsules of saw palmetto, topical sp yes, once a day app of a few drops, thats it, this is hardly *an excuse for this regime failing*,
> thoughj i am sure gutted will come here and claim its the reason for me not seeing success which is a joke


 At least he has brought some research papers and his own experiences to the table.  Nobody is saying he is divine and he may be lucky and this just worked for him but he stuck it out. 

Its too early to say if this has failed you yet, I know hairloss is a desperate situation but you are too impatient. None of us are 4 months yet as far as I can tell.  I am one of the earliest adopters of this regiem and I'm still just about 3 months in.  Itch mostly gone and I thought I saw a decrease in shed for a couple of weeks but it seems to be back to normal shedding levels this past fortnight.

----------


## Cob984

i applaud hi for bringing this regime here obviously

what is making me impatient is that i am regressing everyday, the minimum requirement of a regimen is to stop further bleeding, i think thats pretty fair

----------


## bananana

Yup, none of us is over 4 months. I'm 3 months in. Itch is probably 90&#37; decreased, oil also, since last 10 days I'm using cetirizine...

I don't see thickening in the frontal area - then again I dont see regression. 
Crown MIGHT be a bit thicker, but that is discussable. 

I see hair is growing thicker at the base - but I guess that is normal. 

If this can just maintain what i have - i'd be delighted! Then again, I'm norwood 3 or 3a thinning. (toppiking it to norwood 1  :Big Grin: ) For guys that are 6, this would be crap probably...

----------


## clandestine

Take pictures mother****ers.. If you haven't already.

----------


## bananana

> Take pictures mother****ers.. If you haven't already.


 hahaha  :Big Grin: 

Unfortunately I think nothing visible would be seen, actually I believe that is a good sign - it's not progressing.

But its still very early for me. 3 months is NOTHING. I've been thinning for 6,7 years now.  

I hope to see something at 6 months and further down the line...

I dont know where gutted is, he hasn't been here in quite a while.

----------


## Ginkosama

Cob : do you want some sad truth ?
Nobody is even maintaining without propecia and/or minox. 

So here we have a guy who claims maintenance without to use this garbage. The least we can do is give it a fair go, but expecting it to work for sure is being delusionnal. 

Even with all those new experimental treatments we have, maintenance will be a miracle, not a minimum.

----------


## b0urna

I couldn't agree with the last few comments more. The realistic among us aren't expecting to see any change before the 6month mark, maybe even 12. I jumped on the train early and am just over 3months on this regime. Gutted is maintaining at a Norwood 1/2 without having to use fin or minox, so essentially doesnt have a hair problem anymore, yet he chooses to come back to this thread and answer our repeated questions over and over again, for that I give him respect. 
Btw I'm taking the plunge and cutting my hair this weekend, hope it returns with a vengeance!

----------


## jgold

could someone repeat the regimen.

trx2 - 3 tabs a day

vitamin c - ?

msm - 

any sides with these?

----------


## Jcm800

Gutted prob had enough lmao. Anyway nothing to report here except faster regrowth of existing hair, that's for sure.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Gutted prob had enough lmao. Anyway nothing to report here except faster regrowth of existing hair, that's for sure.


 Don't seem to be shedding a lot, and my hair seems to look nicer. In other words, not lost ground.

----------


## gutted

guys i wouldnt take cob's experience into account much.

1 - hes not following through with any regime that hes on, continually changing and adding new stuff, even though ive continually stated hes *probably* not going to witness visible changes in his hair whilst using dht blockers.

2 - hes impatient and being unrealistic and expecting "visbile" results in such a short period of time. Visbile reslts take many many months, something that probably wont be occuring with him anyway.

if theres anything to learn from his case is that stopping dht blockers will thin you out, there is a rational explanation for this. These hairs have not in any way been *lost*, they have just *shedded*... a sort of telogen efflivium if you will, which should return a few months down the line.

*So its important for anyone who is on dht blockers and have dropped them realise this before panicking and misunderstanding this as mpb progression, your hair will most likley thin out but will return should you stay on msm/C alone*

As for using dht blockers with the regime, im 101&#37; confident it will not appear to "work"
well its wrong of me to say it wont "work"...it will "work" you just wont see the visible side of things that tell you its "working", should you use dht blockers.

also i have to stress you need to give it many many months *soley* on this regime, no changes or additions throughout this period before any changes are seen. I advise taking pictures for your own reference periodically as well as running your hands through your hair regularly to feel the density.

If you have diffuse hair loss throughout the scalp, im confident you will see a reversal. First changes are seen at the crown.

----------


## Cob984

what a joke, i knew that would be his excuse,
i have not tinkered with my internal regime at all, its only msm+trx2+vitc

the only 'changing' iv done is swap one topical dht blocker for another, though i think its well agreed here topical dht blockers shldnt cause the systemic absorption to impact this regime

unrealistic? im not expecting regrowth, but im also not expecting to be see new patches of thinned out hair every few weeks

in any case, i appreciate the advice and info like we all do, what i dont appreciate is because it worked for u and thats great, you think the exact same program has to work for everyone and you are encouraging people to discard dht blockers which for aggressive balders could be calamitous in the norwoords lost over the period of 12 months.
I personally dont tolerate dht blockers well which is why this regime will have to suffice for my cornerstone, good or not,
but for those that can, you would be beyond foolish to drop or delay their use for this

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

just curious gutted, are you still taking 9g all at once, even though theres no way your body is absorbing/utilitzing all of that? just wondering if you switched it up at all by taking smaller amounts throughout the day. personally im taking 3gmsm/1gvitc at lunch then again with dinner, only been on for 3weeks though.

----------


## bananana

> guys....


 Thanks for this mate. I really believe in your words therefore, I'm staying on board. I've seen only positive changes so far, there is no reason not to believe this will continue further.

----------


## MrBlonde

> If you have diffuse hair loss throughout the scalp, im confident you will see a reversal. First changes are seen at the crown.


 I am diffuse throughout the scalp Gutted and its worrying, I am 3 months in and getting thinner whilst on this regiem.  I shed mainly at the hairline too.

I would like to get an idea of exactly how aggressive and advanced your MPB was and just to make sure it was MPB and not TE or something else you could have recovered from with help of this program.

Where you thinning all over the scalp before you addressed you MPB with this program? because you said this before 




> no when i started the combo, there was no signs of thinning. Its only when i started other supplements that caused the thinning. That has slowly reversed itself over the last few months.


 What I'm getting at is how can you say this will reverse diffuse thinning when you say were not experiencing it before this program?  It was only a supplemental reaction  that caused it and was easily reversable. 

Why did you start this if there was no thinning?

In this exchange you seem to contradict the above and say you were thinning before this treatment




> Originally Posted by MrBlonde View Post
> So you were not thinning before this treatment or you were? I cant remember.
> 			
> 		
> 
>  yes i was thinning in a diffuse manner BECAUSE of mpb, most visible on the left side.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 Can you clarify please.

You also say your hair is shedding but at a normal level




> yes i have a normal shedding pattern and this is all over, hairline included. Its normal to lose hairs.
> 
> No my hairline has stopped receeding, there has been no recession for over a year now. Im confident its staying put. I know on the right side i can see density improving, i also expect this to happen on the left although in a few months time.


 So your hairline is not receeding and your not thinning but you may not have ever been or had a problem in this area, i'm not sure.  If you were not thinning and are saying that it will work for those that are you are taking a big risk with other ppls hair.

We are talking about diffuse thinning and miniturization as the same thing here yes?

I am just trying to get some clarity on your level of MPB and was it really a problem as it is for the rest of us or were you at an early recoverable stageother  and some key issues I meant to address before but never did.   I am not saying you are lying to us.  I know when you are replying to a lot of posts you may contradict yourself accidently.

----------


## ammin

Mr Blonde,

Trust me. Get the acell + Prp done. I dont care which doctor, Just get it done. I went to Dr Hitzig for the procedure and I think it has the potential to change my life and keep me stress free for atleast the next two years, maybe longer, at which point I will get another set of injections.

Its 3500 $ with the motto release form. Motto release form are documents that you sign that allow Dr Hitzigs office to showcase your results without identifying you. In other words your pictures will not reveal your face or obscure them.

----------


## ammin

acell prp is the most effective treatment I have tried after propecia. I had gynecomastia so I couldn't continue with propecia.

Incidentally, I believe even TRX 2 isn't working for me , let alone MSM and Vit C. It might be effective as an adjunct.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Mr Blonde,
> 
> Trust me. Get the acell + Prp done. I dont care which doctor, Just get it done. I went to Dr Hitzig for the procedure and I think it has the potential to change my life and keep me stress free for atleast the next two years, maybe longer, at which point I will get another set of injections.
> 
> Its 3500 $ with the motto release form. Motto release form are documents that you sign that allow Dr Hitzigs office to showcase your results without identifying you. In other words your pictures will not reveal your face or obscure them.


 I live in Ireland Ammin so I'm not sure it its available here or in the UK.  Actually I don't even know what it is?  I'm going to do some reading on it right away though.

Can you give me the general jist of it and if there are any risks or sides associated with it?

----------


## ammin

No sides unless you are allergic to pork which very few people are.

Just a few injections filled with your own blood mixed with growth factors , vitamin D and platelet rich plasma, over 90 minutes and thats it.

You should in most cases be able to keep the hair that you have for the next two years at the very least. Thats the been the clinical experience at Dr hitzig and Dr Greco's office and other "Board Certified Surgeons" who are offering this treatment. THis includes Dr Bauman, Dr Craig Zierring, Dr Glenn Charles and others 

No maintenance or upkeep required. You can ofcourse add adjuncts to compound results. 

I am staying on TRX 2 and revivogen.

DOnt mentally F**ck yourself over by scouring the internet for imaginary side effects to the procedure experienced by lunatics and phalcrophobes of which I am one. 

IMO this treatment is as safe as safe can be

For your due dilligence go to the websites of these surgeons and perhaps call in on spencer and ask for his opinions.

Most of us dont know squat about regenerative medicine

----------


## ammin

IMO This treatment has turned out to be a failure. Gutted can have as many retrospective revisions to his theory but I will not encourage anyone to rely on this combination alone.

I have discovered it is not that difficult to compose long elaborate post espousing new hair loss regimens.

I say this with all due respect to gutted. You should either rely on the opinions of Board certified physicians or on extensive photographic evidence.

Neither does gutted have any evidence nor does he have the credentials. 

To conclude, I dont think this thread deserves to be in the cutting edge future treatments section and should have a caveat emptor sign attached to it..

----------


## b0urna

> IMO This treatment has turned out to be a failure. Gutted can have as many retrospective revisions to his theory but I will not encourage anyone to rely on this combination alone.


 I think we should at least give this a fair chance, as we do with any supposed hairloss treatment. Personally I'm sticking it out for 12 months, if my hair continues to go downhill i'll consider other options, but probably accept defeat, else if my hair hasn't changed or improves then it's a massive success.

----------


## bananana

> I think we should at least give this a fair chance, as we do with any supposed hairloss treatment. Personally I'm sticking it out for 12 months, if my hair continues to go downhill i'll consider other options, but probably accept defeat, *else if my hair hasn't changed or improves then it's a massive success*.


 Exactly! My thoughts also mate, if my hair doesn't get worse - that means it's working! I'll be utterly happy with just maintaining.

But already I would say this - if it lowers itch, lowers oil, makes your skin 10 years younger, strengthens nails, erases wrinkles etc - it must do SOMETHING good for the hair.

----------


## fred970

It increase my oil production in my case, someone can explaine this?

----------


## ammin

The combo's effectiveness is supposed to manifest over an extended period of time in such a vague manner -reduce itch and oil production :/ - that a lot of participants might mistakenly consider it a success.

These are the kind of shenanigans Astrologists use to convince the larger community of their validity - Yes I did experience financial misfortune last year OR I am susceptible to mood swings, whereas this predictions could apply to anyone.

----------


## bananana

> The combo's effectiveness is supposed to manifest over an extended period of time in such a vague manner -reduce itch and oil production :/ - that a lot of participants might mistakenly consider it a success.
> 
> These are the kind of shenanigans Astrologists use to convince the larger community of their validity - Yes I did experience financial misfortune last year OR I am susceptible to mood swings, whereas this predictions could apply to anyone.


 Ok, you might have a point. But listen, I had terrible itch all over and I could scrape TONS of oil off my scalp - it was almost visible how it clogged my hair, it was all over.

And that is one of the biggest signs of MPB if there ever was one. 
I even posted a photo of my hair 8 months ago on this site (i'll try to find it).
It looked like shit!

Now its all gone! Like drinking aspirin to "kill" the cold. For me, it is a sign it is working. Period.

----------


## Jcm800

A member of my family commented that I have a bald patch today, talk about deflated.  Started thinking about jumping on fin, doubt I'll take it but **** hope this regime kicks in soon or it's doom and gloom time for me.

----------


## bananana

edit: i found the thread, but the photo has been deleted  :Frown: 

Anyways, I tried EVERYTHING, from dutasteride to chinese mushrooms for MPB, nothing ever relieved me of itch and abundant amounts of oil. And I gave everything at least 6 months.

This has - in a very short timeframe, therefore, I'll stick with it no matter what anyone says. It works for me.

Or I have magical power and I suffer from such a strong delusion it has gave all those results.  :Smile: 

Either way I'm sticking with it.

----------


## bananana

> A member of my family commented that I have a bald patch today, talk about deflated.  Started thinking about jumping on fin, doubt I'll take it but **** hope this regime kicks in soon or it's doom and gloom time for me.


  :Frown: 
ughhh, i hate when that happens! I use toppik or nanogen for that reason. 
Especially now, this christmas time, gatherings etc.. Hang in there.

----------


## StayThick

What do you guys think of this ACELL/PRP injections? I'm diffuse but do not have any bald patches (for now). I noticed this Dr. Greco is located 4 hours from me who performs these injections.. Is it worth $1200 or am I throwing money down the toilet? Anybody hear anything positive from this?

I'm looking to try and do anything at this point besides Propecia or anything that effects my normal hormonal balance. I will also still continue with this MSM/Vitc/Trx2 combo.

----------


## Cob984

hey ammin, can you tell us more about the injections mate, i also remain very skeptical of this regimen to say the least,

does your hair already look better in such a short time? no scar? and how can you be sure you will not regress for atleast 2 years?

im a diffuse thinner with a patch developing in the crown and hairline going for a toss, if i do this now, does it freeze further loss in diffuse areas?

----------


## ammin

I went from NW 1.5 with thick hair to NW 5 -6 Diffuse in 5 months. I compared pictures from my graduation ceremony with my current photographs so I know I am not imagining the deterioration.

Other than Acell The most effective treatment I was on was propecia. I have thrown the Kitchen Sink at my MPB- TRX 2, Laser comb, Vivscal, Gutted's combo, Revivogen, Fluridil, Minoxidil, Hairomega 3 in 1.

I returned from a company visit recently having shaved my head a few days earlier . I was waiting for my flight at the airport and thinking to myself - How Comical - You will be bald soon while your father will have a respectable set of hair for a man his age. Picture the family photographs. 

I was depressed, more so than I have ever been, despite the fact that I recently secured employment with a firm I had always wanted to work for.

Fast forward to monday, At work I am debating whether or not to try the Acell as a last resort - Looked at the websites of a few board certified physicians and decided to have the procedure done.  Called Dr hitzig's office  and was informed by the patient co-ordinator that I could schedule an appointment for that very day and the treatment would cost anywhere between $3500-6000. I asked for a narrower estimate and was told with the "Motto Release Form" it would cost me $3500. 

I went to the clinic and was treated very professionally by their staff. Prior to my procedure Dr Hitzig and Dr Prasad waxed on their differences with Dr Rassman. 

Before the injections I was numbed with an anesthetic. I experienced pain that was a 3-4 on a scale of 10 but wasnt anything a Grown man desperate to avoid a chrome dome could not handle. Subsequently Dr prasad injected me with Acell PRP . The "surgery" was over in 90 minutes and I was told not to Shampoo my Hair for the next 36 hours- instructions I did not follow but you would be well advised to-, not lean over while working on a computer and use cold compresses for the coming few days to avoid swelling. 

3 Days later ,I have no swelling and my Hair is markedly thicker! It seems to me if I grew it out It would be like the hair I had a month after graduation. Who knows in a few months time I could regain all the thickness I lost over the last 5 months. I wish I had not shaved my head or I could have served as the most phenomenal case study for Dr Hitzigs clinic , akin to the results achieved by irishpride.

Beware that my follicles were not dead or even dormant but extraordinarily thin. That my research suggests is the rule of Thumb for Hair restoration physicians: If the follicles are thin or dormant they can be rejuvenated

It also makes sense that I am experiencing such drastic results since my deterioration was very fast paced too.

Now moving forward , I plan to visit Dr hitzig occassionally and stay on THe TRX 2 and Revivogen . I might add the laser comb too if Dr Hitzig endorses the addition.

This was truly a Christmas miracle for me. I am extremely relieved but I know I need to temper my optimism....

----------


## ammin

> does your hair already look better in such a short time? no scar? and how can you be sure you will not regress for atleast 2 years?
> 
> im a diffuse thinner with a patch developing in the crown and hairline going for a toss, if i do this now, does it freeze further loss in diffuse areas?


 I have no scar. Its just a bunch of injections

I am not sure actually, just more confident that my hair loss would cease than I would have been had I been follwing gutted's regimen.

Why? Since my conviction stems from the clinical experience of Board certified Hair restoration physicians and not some anonymous , probably well meant poster, on bald truth talk. 

As we speak Dr Greco, Dr Cooley, Dr Hitzig, Robert Niedbalski are compiling their results to present to ISHRS next year.


 [/QUOTE]does it freeze further loss in diffuse areas?[/QUOTE]

I think it should

Incidentally, I think gutted is surreptitiously representing Dr Whitfield but also admit this is speculation on my part.

Gutted might believe what he says but IMO he hasn't fully disclosed his affiliations

----------


## StayThick

Ammin: you stated you received the "motto release" form of injections and that you paid $3500. Are these the same injections Dr. GRECO is performing, as you did state him as one of the few doctors performing these injections? If so, why does Dr. Greco offer them for $800 with travel discount versus the $3500 you shelved over? Something isn't jiving here, but I wouldn't pay $3500 for this treatment.

I spoke with Dr. GRECO via email and will be booking my appointment tomorrow morning. I am not expecting a miracle, but a slight improvement would be worth it for me. Confused on the big price difference though. 

I am also fortunate because he is located 4 hours from me.

----------


## ammin

Is it just Acell or both Acell and PRP? If its both which is what I received, the only difference between Dr Greco and Dr hitzig's procedure might be in protocol which should amount to nothing. Perhaps Dr Hitzig charges a premium for being a pioneer of the modality. 
Just bring up the price difference with Dr Greco. Perhaps the two will talk and Dr Hitzig will reduce his prices incase I have to get another set of injections 2 years from now.

----------


## inspects

> Fast forward to monday, At work I am debating whether or not to try the Acell as a last resort - Looked at the websites of a few board certified physicians and decided to have the procedure done. Called Dr hitzig's office and was informed by the patient co-ordinator that I could schedule an appointment for that very day and the treatment would cost anywhere between $3500-6000. I asked for a narrower estimate and was told with the "Motto Release Form" it would cost me $3500.


 Hi Ammin,

May I ask where you had the procedure performed, New York?

Certainly sounds interesting.

Have a great Christmas...!

-Dale-

----------


## ammin

> I am not expecting a miracle, but a slight improvement would be worth it for me.


 I think thats the right attitude. I just had some peach fuzz remaining after 5 months of follicular devastation. All I hoped for is to retain that peach fuzz and here I am sprouting lush follicles all over. 

My MPB was especially severe. I would go to bed and wake up the next morning with my hair noticeably thinner than the night before . Can you imagine getting ready for work after that? Better still going to a trading desk analyzing market color, looking at thousands of charts daily, negotiating with brokers , staring at three bloomberg terminals throughout the day while knowing that you are balding at the rate of knots. It was awful.

 I am leaving for Disney Land in a few hours with my girlfirned and thankfully I wont have a chrome dome in my pictures. God bless Acell PRP.

Merry Christmas everyone  :Smile:

----------


## ammin

Yes I had the procedure done in NY with Dr Hitzig. You can get it done elsewhere if you would like.




 I think Acell-PRP is going to take off soon. This treatment is the true "hidden gem". It just lies undiscovered with people abstaining from it due to fear and cost .

----------


## inspects

> Yes I had the procedure done in NY with Dr Hitzig. You can get it done elsewhere if you would like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  I think Acell-PRP is going to take off soon. This treatment is the true "hidden gem". It just lies undiscovered with people abstaining from it due to fear and cost .


 Thanks for the info ammin...I too agree, it will take some type of cell altering to cure-repair the MPB we have.

Best of luck to you with your treatment, I really hope it makes a big difference for you and many others.

I will look into this more, certainly could make a significant difference for many people.

----------


## ammin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuYrRebvFHc

Some people stand in the Darkness.....afraid to step into the light  :Smile: )))))

----------


## inspects

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuYrRebvFHc
> 
> Some people stand in the Darkness.....afraid to step into the light )))))


 I have to agree with you, MSM, Vit C and TRX2 are probably slightly behind the ACell concept.........

----------


## MrBlonde

> IMO This treatment has turned out to be a failure. Gutted can have as many retrospective revisions to his theory but I will not encourage anyone to rely on this combination alone.
> 
> I have discovered it is not that difficult to compose long elaborate post espousing new hair loss regimens.
> 
> I say this with all due respect to gutted. You should either rely on the opinions of Board certified physicians or on extensive photographic evidence.
> 
> Neither does gutted have any evidence nor does he have the credentials. 
> 
> To conclude, I dont think this thread deserves to be in the cutting edge future treatments section and should have a caveat emptor sign attached to it..


 Although I appreciate your input and for bringing Acell/PRP to my attention I do feel you are being overly harsh here.  Its too early too tell if this is a failure.  Like I mentioned earlier none of us have been on this treatment for 4 months yet.  We will only be able to tell after 12 months.

I too have noticed an improvement in facial skin qaulity and though this means nothing for MPB it does give me hope that if its improving the health of my skin in that general area that it might be doing something.  The reduction in itch was a big bonus too, my head used to be itchy all day long but now it rarely is unless I go a long time without washing my scalp.

To suggest Gutted is fronting for a doctor imo is out of order.

----------


## b0urna

> I have to agree with you, MSM, Vit C and TRX2 are probably slightly behind the ACell concept.........


 Am I the only one wondering why a $3500 injection involving pigs bladder extractions is being compared with what is essentially a natural vitamin combination? have I missed something?

----------


## Jcm800

Gutteds thread has been hijacked lol. Not every one can afford a $3500 pigs bladder injection either. But damn I do wish time would pass and this regime would prove to save my rapidly dwindling hair follicles.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Random follow up to a previous comment: Is anyone else experiencing eye pain from MSM?? 

Thanks.

----------


## Jcm800

No eye pain, just pain from seeing my hair loss progressing

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Random follow up to a previous comment: Is anyone else experiencing eye pain from MSM?? 
> 
> Thanks.


 No.

Starting to believe MSM isn't the problem for some on here.

----------


## Jcm800

> No.
> 
> Starting to believe MSM isn't the problem for some on here.


 MSM isn't a problem, hairloss is

----------


## Benzzro

The only reason I don;t trust gutted is the fact that he thinks this will work for absolutely everyone, when he's literally only tested it on himself and posted no pics. Don't get me wrong, I'm still on the treatment with nothing else cause of the fact that I've accepted hairloss but may as well try something natural to prevent it. Really wish the itch stopped in 3 weeks like OP said but my scalp still itches like crazy and it's been like a month and a half.

----------


## StayThick

Guys, I am starting to hit a very dark place as it relates to my hairloss. Prior to this regimen I have never had somebody comment on the sides/back of hair being noticeably darker/thicker compared to the top of my head...BUT for the second straight time in 2 weeks a close friend commented on how the sides of my head look abnormally darker/thicker when compared to the rest of my head and further went on to predict that I would be completely bald by 36 (I'm 27). I actually think he was being optimistic at this point. I literally wanted to crawl in a corner and soak..

Over a month in and the only thing I noticed this combo doing, AGAIN, is just growing my DHT resistant hair a much faster rate, while darkening the hair in the process. I am really starting to doubt this combo having any effect on preventing baldness or regrowing any lost hair period. It works perfect for those NOT going bald IMHO. As I mentioned in prior posts, I will continue this for a year, IF, the sides of my hair don't grow or darken any further...I am starting to look like George Jefferson but still with hair on the top if that makes sense, just not as thick. Depressing. Merry Christmas you all...hope your family members avoid commenting on your hair..I dread tomorrow.

PRP/ACELL to come..

----------


## b0urna

> Glutathione, yes. The products you're listed are probably useless. If raising glutathione is our goal, then why bother with MSM? Just take glutathione directly or take its precursors.
> 
> I will start taking this next year(out of stock until Jan 2013):
> http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/sta...heric-gsh.html
> 
> If low glutathione is the cause, then that would fix it as one serving provides a lot of it.
> 
> I'm currently taking this as Vitamin C:
> http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htm...vitamin-c.html
> ...


 hi 2020, are you still planning on taking these next month? would be interesting to see your results with simply raising glutathione. It would also be good to test whether longer lasting vitamin c is needed for maximum absorption.

----------


## bananana

> Guys, I am starting to hit a very dark place as it relates to my hairloss. Prior to this regimen I have never had somebody comment on the sides/back of hair being noticeably darker/thicker compared to the top of my head...BUT for the second straight time in 2 weeks a close friend commented on how the sides of my head look abnormally darker/thicker when compared to the rest of my head and further went on to predict that I would be completely bald by 36 (I'm 27). I actually think he was being optimistic at this point. I literally wanted to crawl in a corner and soak..
> 
> Over a month in and the only thing I noticed this combo doing, AGAIN, is just growing my DHT resistant hair a much faster rate, while darkening the hair in the process. I am really starting to doubt this combo having any effect on preventing baldness or regrowing any lost hair period. It works perfect for those NOT going bald IMHO. As I mentioned in prior posts, I will continue this for a year, IF, the sides of my hair don't grow or darken any further...I am starting to look like George Jefferson but still with hair on the top if that makes sense, just not as thick. Depressing. Merry Christmas you all...hope your family members avoid commenting on your hair..I dread tomorrow.
> 
> PRP/ACELL to come..


 Start using concealers! ASAP! I'm sorry its going the way it is for you. 
I really don't know what to say about msm, I've found numerous articles online that describe how good it is for hair (and entire body), I really believe it works because I've seen the results on myself. No oil production means a lot to me, really, that alone is a great reason for taking it. Not to mention less itch, better overall skin condition, nails, joints, cholesterol etc etc...

ps, I read one can take 20 grams of msm daily - it's safe as water! But I don't know will upping the dose bring more results... It would be quite expensive.

----------


## Cob984

to those looking at topical treatments while on this program, consider the Keratene range
I only use the shampoo and i have dropped revivogen, it has a nice cosmetic affect if nothing else but i think the ingredients are real quality as well, and you have to use a minimal amount so it lasts a long time,
every time i go out on weekends i use the shampoo, very helpful stuff

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks Cob might look into that stuff myself now

----------


## clandestine

Also, check out the 'Fin without sides' thread in Hair Loss Treatments. It's regarding Keratene's 5ari pill.

----------


## TheBadger

> Random follow up to a previous comment: Is anyone else experiencing eye pain from MSM?? 
> 
> Thanks.


 Can you elaborate? 'Eye pain' is pretty vague. A few weeks in I did have some eye discomfort, I wouldn't describe it as 'pain' as such but it was pretty unpleasant. Basically the edge of my right eye would have this weird throbbing feel every so often, then it died down and the other eye developed this feeling like there was a lot of pressure building up in it. It's largely died down though, comes back in relatively minimal form every so often which I can't say doesn't concern me, but there's no way to prove this is the cause without dropping this, seeing what happens then starting it up again if it goes away. Which I don't really want to risk because it'd throw me back a month and a half, especially as like I said it's nowhere near as bad as it was.

----------


## Jcm800

I'm easing myslelf back onto Minox foam now, as well as this combo - the comment's about my crown are too painful, gotta up the ante - fk i've even considered Fin again, not good.

----------


## b0urna

> I'm easing myslelf back onto Minox foam now, as well as this combo - the comment's about my crown are too painful, gotta up the ante - fk i've even considered Fin again, not good.


 Hold strong mate, we will know in another 3 months or so if this works. Also, if it does act as a natural fin alternative (see thread title), combining this with min, or another growth stimulator like bim, could mean maintenance of all regrown hair. 

BTW I'm 3 1/2 months in, and even though I don't think my hair looks any worse than when I started this regime, I'm still shedding...or my hair is still 're-synchronising' (I'm hoping the latter!)
I'm also still too scared to have a haircut, think I'm gonna bite the bullet and get it done today :-/

----------


## lucrio

I've been using vit C and MSM now for close to three months and the itching has improved. I'm also using Epsom salts dissolved in my shampoo every now and then as Sparx444 recommended from hair loss talk forums and that is definitely helping with the itch as well. 

Just curious is anyone still using the trx2 and do we feel that it is an essential part of this regimen. I haven't read this whole thread and would like to know if this regimen is supposed to include the trx2. Thanks guys

----------


## bananana

> I've been using vit C and MSM now for close to three months and the itching has improved. I'm also using Epsom salts dissolved in my shampoo every now and then as Sparx444 recommended from hair loss talk forums and that is definitely helping with the itch as well. 
> 
> Just curious is anyone still using the trx2 and do we feel that it is an essential part of this regimen. I haven't read this whole thread and would like to know if this regimen is supposed to include the trx2. Thanks guys


 I dont use trx2, I take some multivitamins and thats it. 
I'm still curious about trying that divine hair oil that has been talked about here.

----------


## Cob984

> I dont use trx2, I take some multivitamins and thats it. 
> I'm still curious about trying that divine hair oil that has been talked about here.


 im using trx2, dont know if it helps or not TBH, so far nothing and im into bottle 4,

I have also ordered the divine oil, should be in next week, will give feedback a couple weeks in

----------


## MrBlonde

> I'm also still too scared to have a haircut, think I'm gonna bite the bullet and get it done today :-/


 Do your self a favour mate and buy a Flowbee.  You can cut your hair whatever way you want and leave and long hair to cover certain areas in tact.  I bought one two months ago as I couldn't risk being butchered by a barber and its been a great investment.  You can pick up a thinning shears on ebay for next to nothing also that will help with any blending.

----------


## MrBlonde

> im using trx2, dont know if it helps or not TBH, so far nothing and im into bottle 4,
> 
> I have also ordered the divine oil, should be in next week, will give feedback a couple weeks in


 I have a bottle of Devine herbal hair oil but stopped its use before getting half way through the bottle.  Not because it had bad results or anything but it contains GLA which is a strong natural DHT inhibitor and thus I didn't want it interfering with this regime.  I just you should know that first.

----------


## b0urna

> Do your self a favour mate and buy a Flowbee.  You can cut your hair whatever way you want and leave and long hair to cover certain areas in tact.  I bought one two months ago as I couldn't risk being butchered by a barber and its been a great investment.  You can pick up a thinning shears on ebay for next to nothing also that will help with any blending.


 Cheers mrblonde, I bit that 50cal yesterday and got a haircut, my hair actually looks a lot better, apart from my slowly balding crown I doubt most people would know I'm losing my hair. So luckily iv still got the gift of some time. 
Is anyone combining this with a PGD2 inhibitor, like cetirizine?

----------


## Jcm800

I'm thinking of biting the bullet myself and going short grrrrrr not relishing the idea, but it's inevitable..

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I'm thinking of biting the bullet myself and going short grrrrrr not relishing the idea, but it's inevitable..


 I keep my hair short and messy these days.

----------


## Jcm800

I think short and messy is best. Apparently makes hair look thicker

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I think short and messy is best. Apparently makes hair look thicker


 Not only that, but it looks tidy and easier to style.

----------


## Jcm800

How far gone is your hair loss?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> How far gone is your hair loss?


 Norwood 2, hairline means I cant style it like I used too. Pushed up.

----------


## jman91

bump 10 charrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

----------


## 2020

> Cheers mrblonde, I bit that 50cal yesterday and got a haircut, my hair actually looks a lot better, apart from my slowly balding crown I doubt most people would know I'm losing my hair. So luckily iv still got the gift of some time. 
> Is anyone combining this with a PGD2 inhibitor, like cetirizine?


 wait what are you talking about? Did MSM + Vitamin C work for you?

----------


## Cob984

guys my hairline is taking an absolute pounding, im waiting to start applying the divine herbal hair oil as soon as that arrives and am considering dropping the topical cet, i dont know if thats doing more harm than good at this juncture

This trx2 combo isnt doing anything and im into my 4th bottle, it seems like such a ripoff, im very upset as i genuinely thought they must be onto something pricing it at 55 euros a bottle,
im allergic to minoxidil so i cannot even begin that which sucks

----------


## Jcm800

My hairs taking a real dive lately as well, shall carry on with this combo but not optimistic it's going to help me,  at least if the current trend continues anyway.

----------


## b0urna

> wait what are you talking about? Did MSM + Vitamin C work for you?


 I was talking about a haircut mate, and how it's positively affected my hairs appearance. No regrowth from me yet, but only 3 1/2 months in, and was on SP/minox/niz prior to this so I'm assuming it takes a while to flush these out your system. I believe my shedding is slowing down though as its been pretty heavy over the past month (maybe due to dropping other treatments or seasonal shed, feck knows). Too early to say much about this combos effectiveness really, i will re-assess my hair at the 6month stage.

----------


## Cob984

> I was talking about a haircut mate, and how it's positively affected my hairs appearance. No regrowth from me yet, but only 3 1/2 months in, and was on SP/minox/niz prior to this so I'm assuming it takes a while to flush these out your system. I believe my shedding is slowing down though as its been pretty heavy over the past month (maybe due to dropping other treatments or seasonal shed, feck knows). Too early to say much about this combos effectiveness really, i will re-assess my hair at the 6month stage.


 mate if the dht blockers were agreeing with you and working for you, + the minox etc, it was a very stupid decision to drop them because of gutteds hallucinations

----------


## the_dude78

> wait what are you talking about? Did MSM + Vitamin C work for you?


 But why would this work? I mean, what's the science behind it, if any? And why vitamin C and not Vitamin E? MSM has proven to grow hair at faster rate, not regrow, why should Vitamin C change that..

I'm a bit skeptic.

----------


## StayThick

Gutted's combo doesn't work period.  This combo's ceiling is maintaining or possibly slowing down loss, but that is even a huge reach IMHO.

This combo will NOT regrow any lost hair, but rather grow existing healthy hair at a much faster rate. Period.

I'm starting to think the only way I can get my hairline back is through FUE hair transplant. I was really hoping to wait before considering this, but I'm running out of options and I want to enjoy the rest of my 20's with hair.

----------


## Cob984

> Gutted's combo doesn't work period.  This combo's ceiling is maintaining or possibly slowing down loss, but that is even a huge reach IMHO.
> 
> This combo will NOT regrow any lost hair, but rather grow existing healthy hair at a much faster rate. Period.
> 
> I'm starting to think the only way I can get my hairline back is through FUE hair transplant. I was really hoping to wait before considering this, but I'm running out of options and I want to enjoy the rest of my 20's with hair.


 have to say i agree, i am considering winding down the msm too since my body hair is making me look like an ape and if its not doing anything on the scalp it really aint worth it

----------


## Jcm800

It's strange, whilst my hair is not maintaining, it's growing faster. Unlike other users tho my body hair hasn't changed, certainly not ape like. My pubes may have changed lol but not even convinced about that.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> It's strange, whilst my hair is not maintaining, it's growing faster. Unlike other users tho my body hair hasn't changed, certainly not ape like. My pubes may have changed lol but not even convinced about that.


 Same although I haven't lost ground.

Went in for a cut - hairdresser was like, wow your hair grows fast!...it was 2 weeks after my previous cut.

----------


## Jcm800

I guess I like the fact it's growing faster, but hoping for maintenance soon or I'm doomed. Can wait for regrowth, just want the loss to halt, hope it happens soon.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I guess I like the fact it's growing faster, but hoping for maintenance soon or I'm doomed. Can wait for regrowth, just want the loss to halt, hope it happens soon.


 TBH I hate it, more money on hair cuts.

Saying that - she has done a terrible job on the sides of my hair. So I need that to grow back quickly!

----------


## b0urna

> mate if the dht blockers were agreeing with you and working for you, + the minox etc, it was a very stupid decision to drop them because of gutteds hallucinations


 'gutteds hallucinations' seems abit far. The fact is the existing treatments I was on prior to this didn't work, I still shed a lot of hair daily and my hair ended up worse than if I hadn't touched them. I'm not in any way stating this will work better or in fact at all at treating or slowing my hairloss, all I'm saying is I'm reserving judgement until iv given it a fair shot.

----------


## b0urna

> But why would this work? I mean, what's the science behind it, if any? And why vitamin C and not Vitamin E? MSM has proven to grow hair at faster rate, not regrow, why should Vitamin C change that..
> 
> I'm a bit skeptic.


 who isn't skeptic. On the first page of this thread gutted had posted some links to some scientific papers, though we all know theory often doesnt match practice..

----------


## Jcm800

To be fair I'm not knocking gutted either, I appreciate the effort he's put into bringing this to the table, it's relatively early days so I'm still waiting for the change, not condemning it, hope the new year brings a turn around for us all.

----------


## b0urna

> It's strange, whilst my hair is not maintaining, it's growing faster. Unlike other users tho my body hair hasn't changed, certainly not ape like. My pubes may have changed lol but not even convinced about that.


 Personally I haven't had any noticeable change in body hair either

----------


## doke

jc you can always get a transplant using your pubes i was thinking that the only thing is i do not want curly hair hahaha :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jcm800

> jc you can always get a transplant using your pubes i was thinking that the only thing is i do not want curly hair hahaha


 Haha god id have a wicked afro if I did that doke

----------


## doke

by the way happy new year and hope 2013 brings a decent hair regrowth treatment.

----------


## Jcm800

> by the way happy new year and hope 2013 brings a decent hair regrowth treatment.


 Ditto doke, hope we all have good luck in our lives and the hair department.

----------


## doke

forgot to ask jc are you trying capillogain as i have only been using for about 8 days so far.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

TO EVERYONE ON HERE: I *URGE* YOU TO TRY HYDROCORTISONE 1% TO QUELL SHEDDING. I believe it has definitely helped along my hairline

----------


## Jcm800

> TO EVERYONE ON HERE: I *URGE* YOU TO TRY HYDROCORTISONE 1% TO QUELL SHEDDING. I believe it has definitely helped along my hairline


 How long have u been using it?  How many times per day,, any regrowth?  Thanks.

----------


## StayThick

Not to thread hijack, but I have booked an appointment for next Friday with Dr. Greco to get the PRP/ACELL treatment done.

For those interested in this non-surgical procedure, I will be posting a thread after its done with pictures to test it's efficacy moving forward. I will also continue to fight my hairloss with Gutted's combo and Minox in the mean time and hope for the best.

Enjoy the new year fellas'

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Dont think I have gotten regrowth specifically from it, but it definitely helps quell inflammation which is key in the miniaturizing follicles process of MPB. Do think it greatly helps control shedding/minitiaturization. If you google it, you will see people have had success with it. Couple studies done have showed it significantly increases growth when added with minoxidil, across the board, every time with every user. I use it pretty much every day on my hairline.

----------


## 2020

> But why would this work? I mean, what's the science behind it, if any? And why vitamin C and not Vitamin E? MSM has proven to grow hair at faster rate, not regrow, why should Vitamin C change that..
> 
> I'm a bit skeptic.


 this follows a theory that glutathione decline is responsible for MPB. There is a study confirming that glutathione levels decrease in follicles as a person ages and there is another study that finds glutathione levels 30% less in balding scalp. This is all we have to go from. It would make sense though as all men have DHT but not all men have "good" levels of glutathione AND it would explain why white men go bald in greater numbers(Vitamin D = glutathione)...

----------


## Cob984

> Not to thread hijack, but I have booked an appointment for next Friday with Dr. Greco to get the PRP/ACELL treatment done.
> 
> For those interested in this non-surgical procedure, I will be posting a thread after its done with pictures to test it's efficacy moving forward. I will also continue to fight my hairloss with Gutted's combo and Minox in the mean time and hope for the best.
> 
> Enjoy the new year fellas'


 nice dude please keep us posted, real success from you and ammin would be reassuring for us

----------


## ammin

I am not going to come here often now because its ****ing depressing, but I have derived some solace and support from this community so I want to give back.

Acell is the Bomb

http://www.deyarmanmedical.com/patients/n-b

I am confident I will experience the results similar to the results experienced by the subject above.

For those of you who want to move on with your lives "Try" Acell. No lotions potions pills involved Just a few dozen injections and you should be able to halt your hair loss for the next few years until the next set of treatments come out.

Peace out

----------


## clandestine

Ammin; If I had thousands of dollars lying around to spend, and on an unproven treatment no less, maybe.

----------


## Ted

> I am not going to come here often now because its ****ing depressing, but I have derived some solace and support from this community so I want to give back.
> 
> Acell is the Bomb
> 
> http://www.deyarmanmedical.com/patients/n-b
> 
> I am confident I will experience the results similar to the results experienced by the subject above.
> 
> For those of you who want to move on with your lives "Try" Acell. No lotions potions pills involved Just a few dozen injections and you should be able to halt your hair loss for the next few years until the next set of treatments come out.
> ...


 Those pics say nothing. If he shaves his head to the same length he has in the before pic it might look exactly the same

----------


## ammin

"Those pics say nothing. If he shaves his head to the same length he has in the before pic it might look exactly the same "

Not true . Not going to argue. Believe what you want . Its a significant cosmetic difference. Significant!

"Unproven Treatment"

if it was unproven, board certified surgeons from Ziering to Charles to Baumann to NiedBalski to Greco to Cooley to Prasad to Hitzig to even Rassman wont be offering it as a standalone . Think about it.

Bye

----------


## clandestine

> "Those pics say nothing. If he shaves his head to the same length he has in the before pic it might look exactly the same "
> 
> Not true . Not going to argue. Believe what you want . Its a significant cosmetic difference. Significant!
> 
> "Unproven Treatment"
> 
> if it was unproven, board certified surgeons from Ziering to Charles to Baumann to NiedBalski to Greco to Cooley to Prasad to Hitzig to even Rassman wont be offering it as a standalone . Think about it.
> 
> Bye


 Not trying to put you down necessarily, just saying that if PRP worked well, there would be hundreds of members from the forums posting pictures and praising its efficacy by now. This is, evidently, not the case.

----------


## StayThick

> Not trying to put you down necessarily, just saying that if PRP worked well, there would be hundreds of members from the forums posting pictures and praising its efficacy by now. This is, evidently, not the case.


 I wondered this myself Clandestine. Only reason I booked my appointment with Dr. Greco is because I DO have $1000 lying around and figure it's worth a shot. If it does nothing..I wasted $1000 and saved others on this forum money and time. It does alarm me that nobody really talks about this treatment and that photos revealing results are extremely hard to find online.

This leads me to have very low expectations about seeing a cosmetically pleasing result. Way I see it, I want to sleep at night knowing I did everything in my financial means to fight this curse. If it works I'll sing its praises, it doesn't..well then there was a reason photos are hard to come by.

----------


## MrBlonde

> I am not going to come here often now because its ****ing depressing, but I have derived some solace and support from this community so I want to give back.
> 
> Acell is the Bomb
> 
> http://www.deyarmanmedical.com/patients/n-b
> 
> I am confident I will experience the results similar to the results experienced by the subject above.
> 
> For those of you who want to move on with your lives "Try" Acell. No lotions potions pills involved Just a few dozen injections and you should be able to halt your hair loss for the next few years until the next set of treatments come out.
> ...


 Did it stop your shedding straight away?  Did it stop your shedding at the hairline too?  I am interested but want to ask so many questions

----------


## TheBadger

> "Those pics say nothing. If he shaves his head to the same length he has in the before pic it might look exactly the same "
> 
> Not true . Not going to argue. Believe what you want . Its a significant cosmetic difference. Significant!
> 
> "Unproven Treatment"
> 
> if it was unproven, board certified surgeons from Ziering to Charles to Baumann to NiedBalski to Greco to Cooley to Prasad to Hitzig to even Rassman wont be offering it as a standalone . Think about it.
> 
> Bye


 I wouldn't be including Rassman in that list, he's been pretty clear he thinks it's useless.

http://www.baldingblog.com/2012/11/2...ss-prevention/

Just says they offer ACell because maybe it might speed up wound healing:

http://www.baldingblog.com/2012/06/2...plant-surgery/

----------


## StuckInARut

Well this thread has steered off-topic but I am wondering what happened to gutted? I have  used this combo for 3 months but only take a few grams of each daily. To be honest the only things I noticed growing faster were my nails and the hair on my head. I didn't experience any regrowth as far as I can see. I have really noticed a difference in my joints which seems to have been the most beneficial aspect of this combo on my body. 

I just recently cut my hair short about a 3/4" length and man my hair is in terrible shape. It doesn't help that I'm a diffuse thinner so I have lost density all over my head not just in the typical MPB areas. I know what I am currently taking (MSM, Vit. C, Saw Palmetto) is most likely not working, probably never was so I am SOL because I refuse to take Finasteride for my own reasons.

I have pretty much after alot of soul searching accepted my fate and since I already have a wife and kids it isn't so bad really. I feel bad for younger brahs who are just starting off because I know it can be devastating to their social/love lives. I'm probably just gonna continue taking 2g-3g each of this combo daily just for maintenance may drop the SP but will continue for the time being. Goodluck to all but I wouldn't be expecting much from this combo. Besides, the only one who claimed to see improvement was gutted and perhaps he is just lucky to respond positively to MSM but he refuses to post pictures so we only have his word to go on.

----------


## Ginkosama

6 weeks in, 6 to 8 grams a day, same body hair, better skin, better joints, still itching, still shedding.

----------


## Cob984

pretty sure this treatment is complete bs, anyone new, dont use this and lose ground, add this if you want but dont replace your current treatment with this

----------


## bananana

> pretty sure this treatment is complete bs, anyone new, dont use this and lose ground, add this if you want but dont replace your current treatment with this


 I havent lost any ground in the last 3 months I've been using it, so be a bit objective here and dont say its bs. It seems at least to be maintaining what I've got. i'll stick with it for a year and see.

I say again - no treatments ever showed such positive signs on itch and oil as msm has.

My 2 cents.

----------


## b0urna

Nearing 4months in myself. Hair isn't in worse condition to when I started. Maybe slight improvement but its hard to tell. I never shed with dry hair anymore really, but still in the shower. Not much more to say, still early days. Hair grows insanely fast, had a haircut last week and it already needs another trim.

----------


## ammin

I am not going to do this often. I am trying to wean myself of this website to never return.....

I was diffuse NW 4- 5 3 weeks ago. I was preparing myself for a life of baldness


3 weeks into my Acell/PRP/Vitamin D injections...

No doubt in my mind. I am 85-90&#37; of pre MPB density. Perhaps more.

Temples filling in

My hair is also significantly thicker, perhaps as thick as it was last summer at my graduation but most probably not.

I am hoping in another few months , I will have restored pre MPB density, and thickness. I am not so sure about the thickness though.

Post which I Hope I can maintain what I have achieved.

I might be an above average responder to the treatment so I am not sure if the modality will work wonders for you as it did for me.

Best part is, it is so convenient. I dont have to do anything.

Caveat emptor: I have been on a host of pills and potions in the last 6 months. Currently , I am on TRX 2 and Revivogen , treatments I have been on for 3 and 4 months respectively.

Peace out

----------


## fred970

I'm stopping this protocol, it gave me nice skin and hair but the huge increase in sebum is unbearable!

----------


## bananana

> I'm stopping this protocol, it gave me nice skin and hair but the huge increase in sebum is unbearable!


 This is crazy - this regimen seems to influence everyone in a different way - I saw a huge decrease of sebum - you saw an increase. Crazy...




> I am not going to do this often. I am trying to wean myself of this website to never return.....
> 
> I was diffuse NW 4- 5 3 weeks ago. I was preparing myself for a life of baldness
> 3 weeks into my Acell/PRP/Vitamin D injections...
> No doubt in my mind. I am 85-90% of pre MPB density. Perhaps more.
> Temples filling in
> My hair is also significantly thicker, perhaps as thick as it was last summer at my graduation but most probably not.
> I am hoping in another few months , I will have restored pre MPB density, and thickness. I am not so sure about the thickness though.
> Post which I Hope I can maintain what I have achieved.
> ...


 Wtf dude? I never heard of such great results. Do you have any photos to back this up? DO you guys know which doctor in europe does this? 
At what price? And the results are temporary, I presume?

----------


## Ginkosama

> Wtf dude? I never heard of such great results. Do you have any photos to back this up? DO you guys know which doctor in europe does this? 
> At what price? And the results are temporary, I presume?


 I can do the same procedure in my basement for half the price and the exact same results. I accept paypal, Western Union, jewellery ...

...

Why are we even discussing this ?
This is a hot topic and a random guy shows up "oh btw, I found the cure, cost only a few grand but it's money well spent I can assure you".

----------


## MrBlonde

> I'm stopping this protocol, it gave me nice skin and hair but the huge increase in sebum is unbearable!


 I am seeing an increase in sebum too but doesn't this usually go hand in hand with an itch? which I am not experiencing anymore.  Not a huge amount but noticeable, well I thinks its sebum anyway.

I have noticed some positive signs lately that maybe down to this regime but they also could be down to something I was doing wrong that I have since stopped.  Let me explain.

The hair is still shedding mainly at the hairline.  I don't seem to loose much from anywhere else and I believe the hairline shedding levels have slightly reduced.  In fact about six weeks ago I though things were desperate especially in the temple area.  It was getting to the stage where I though that another couple of devastating showers and they will be exposed as I wear my hair long and combed down.

The hair on my right temple was very thin and it was difficult to style but now its a lot better.  My left temple has gotten thinner but its still ok to style.

I wash may hair once a week these days due to heavy shower loss.  When I'd run my hand through my hair straight after a shower obviously I shed, due to hair being a lot more prone to breakage when wet and me dislodging hair when massaging in the shampoo.  As my hair dries during the evening a few hairs will come out if I pull at them but once fully dry it seems from that day until the next shower day I have very little loss, sometimes none.  I pull away at my crown now but nothing comes out unless I use extra force.  My hair still feels thin up top though.

What could have cause my hair looking bad was it not getting a proper wash though.  Such was my panic and my thinning hair and its shedding, especially suffering heavy losses in the shower that I was not properly massaging my scalp.  Instead I would get a lather going in the back and side and grab handfulls of this and dab it onto my top hair and let it soak in, there was little or no massaging involved.  I was also dissolving 10g of MSM in water and using that in between shampoos.  As I was not massaging aggresively enough maybe this was not getting washed out correctly and it may be making any sebum there looks worse, as both are white in color.  Sometimes I would pour the shampoo into an empty bottle and add water and shake to get a good lather going and let it sit on my head. My hair was getting plenty of shampoo but I would not say it was getting pushed into the scalp as much as a normal wash.

I have also noticed some hairs shedding that are in the early anagen phase also, ie a long hair with a smaller hair attached. .These hairs are rare to come out when I run my hands through my hair so hopefully thesrest are regrowing and hanging on.

this is what I mean 



Now that I have gone back to washing my hair correctly again things look better but I was shedding in between showers a lot more on the week days than before.  

It could be anything or this combo.  I could be coming to the end of a shedding phase, the combo is now giving me a reduction in shed (which would be the next step according to gutted's timeline) and signs or regrowth as I am on TRX2 also or I could have lost so much due to MPB that whats left is strong enough for the time being.  I can't be sure which it is.


I wonder did Gutted see any sebum increase?  Maybe when he comes back from his Christmas vacation he can start answering questions again.

Here is the article I got the picture from.  Its about Sebum build up and has some interested information

http://www.freepressreleases.com/hai...matitis/225952

----------


## ammin

> Wtf dude? I never heard of such great results. Do you have any photos to back this up? DO you guys know which doctor in europe does this? 
> At what price? And the results are temporary, I presume?


 
The pictures should be on Dr hitzigs website within a few weeks when I go back for my follow up

----------


## ammin

http://grecohairrestoration.com/photos.html

I am like the third guy from the left under Photos non surgical

----------


## bananana

> http://grecohairrestoration.com/photos.html
> 
> I am like the third guy from the left under Photos non surgical


 Well, if thats true. I'm very much interested. 
Do you know of a doctor in europe that does this? 

Obviously this needs to be looked into further..

----------


## MrBlonde

> Well, if thats true. I'm very much interested. 
> Do you know of a doctor in europe that does this? 
> 
> Obviously this needs to be looked into further..


 There was a place in the UK offering this

http://www.theprivateclinic.co.uk/treatments/prp-acell/

but I recently contacted them and they no longer offer the service.  AFAIK the did the injections for a few months and then stopped, not exactly a confidence builder.

Here is our thread about it

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=5037

I don't know of anywhere else in Europe doing this now but it doesn't mean its not being done.  

The only other news I have been able to find is this 

http://prasadcosmeticsurgery.com/tag/acell-prp/

which says the following 




> In late August, Dr. Hitzig began an ACell study with the Poseidon Hair Clinic, an international hair restoration group with offices throughout Europe. The purpose of the study is to determine the effectiveness of ACell/PRP injections for hair loss compared to the traditional follicular unit extraction (FUE) hair transplant. Patients who received the ACell/PRP injections and patients who had an FUE hair transplant will be evaluated every three months for a year to determine differences in donor area hair re-growth, healing and hair duplication in the recipient areas.


 I haven't made contact so I'm not sure if it was a just study or the service is being offered but Google doesn't throw up much more than that, well not in the brief time I inspected it.

----------


## ovoxo

3 1/2 months in, also increase in sebum, still itching like crazy, as for the hair hard to say

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

> This is crazy - this regimen seems to influence everyone in a different way - I saw a huge decrease of sebum - you saw an increase. Crazy...


 I am about 5weeks into this(3g msm,1g vit c 2 times a day) and I'm not sure if I've noticed much of anything. My temples are definitely losing ground though, so it sure hasn't stopped anything. Its weird because I feel like my temple region is always oily, but my hair was also so oily in general that I would HAVE to wash it daily or it just looked horrible. I'm at a point now where I could probably go 2 days without washing, so it seems there may be an overall decrease in oil, but the temple areas being oily are what throws me off. 

I used to itch like crazy, but that was when I was on fin, which i stopped around late october. I have some itch, but its decreased a lot, but not sure if its because of this or because i stopped fin. 

No noticeable hair/nail growth, I do think my skin is a tad better though.

----------


## Cob984

> http://grecohairrestoration.com/photos.html
> 
> I am like the third guy from the left under Photos non surgical


 bloody hell i iwish i was in the US
im planted all the way in asia, damn

and mrblonde thats nice and all but please dont start sounding like gutted lol, it seems everyone on this thread is finding 'invisible' signs of trying to make this combo sound logical

----------


## MrBlonde

> bloody hell i iwish i was in the US
> im planted all the way in asia, damn
> 
> and mrblonde thats nice and all but please dont start sounding like gutted lol, it seems everyone on this thread is finding 'invisible' signs of trying to make this combo sound logical


 I am not trying to sound like anyone but only reporting the truth.

What I know for sure is that I was shedding everyday when I was shampooing correctly and even at times in between my more delicate washes I was still shedding but now the in between sheds (6 days) are reduced.  Sometimes I only get hair loss post shower during the day, which I think is normal and the rest of the week is fine.  Sometimes I don't lose any hair in between and I'm talking about the hairline here.  I run my hand through my hair and tug at them sometimes and nothing, where as a few weeks back I would always get hairs in my hands.  This is a fairly recent development 3-4weeks so I will keep an eye on it and you guys will be the first to know if shedding returns.

I am a desk jockey at my job and I have a white keyboard and desk so any hairfall is very noticable.  I am seeing less here to although I have been off work for a couple of weeks.  Sometimes in work its hard to focus on these things but I'll keep a close eye on it.

I have been taking 9g MSM daily and 4g VIT C.  I have missed some TRX2 due them taking a long time to deliver, its been my fault on occasion as I leave my supply go too low before reordering, all together I would say I have missed 10 days of TRX2 but I take an extra dose to make up for things.

The more I think about it the less I think it was anything to my change in shampoo regime as I'm pretty sure I was shedding in between.  Obviously I saw an initial positive result on shower days due to my hair not getting the rough treatment but it was shedding during the week in between.  Like I said I will keep a close eye on it and report back.

----------


## Jcm800

My existing hair is growing nicely still - but i'm noticing my skin is flaring up, red patches of irratated skin on my eybrows, forehead - have had this before, and it's not bothered me for about a year - it's back now, so, can't say this combo is helping my skin tbh.

----------


## MrBlonde

> The pictures should be on Dr hitzigs website within a few weeks when I go back for my follow up


 Can you post your own before and after photos here also so we can compare the two sets?  You claim to be getting amazing regrowth very soon after this procedure.

Also has anyone found a place in Europe that is offering this service yet?

----------


## StayThick

Just completed my first PRP procedure today with Dr. Greco. He was extremely informative and we sat down when I initially arrived and he was great at explaining how the PRP process works, what to expect, and the science behind it. Really riveting stuff.

The actual procedure wasn't the most pleasant experience I ever had, but it wasn't intolerable. Blood was drawn, platelets were separated, and thus injected throughout the top of my scalp.

I did have a headache throughout the day, as well as some dizziness, but this is common and what Dr. Greco advised might occur. Looking forward to possible regrowth if any. I'll keep you all posted on my progress.

----------


## Jcm800

> Just completed my first PRP procedure today with Dr. Greco. He was extremely informative and we sat down when I initially arrived and he was great at explaining how the PRP process works, what to expect, and the science behind it. Really riveting stuff.
> 
> The actual procedure wasn't the most pleasant experience I ever had, but it wasn't intolerable. Blood was drawn, platelets were separated, and thus injected throughout the top of my scalp.
> 
> I did have a headache throughout the day, as well as some dizziness, but this is common and what Dr. Greco advised might occur. Looking forward to possible regrowth if any. I'll keep you all posted on my progress.


 Cool dude, if i had the money and it was local in the UK i'd have a go myself, getting nowhere fast my way - sigh - guess i'll just have to roll with it and pray..

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

> Just completed my first PRP procedure today with Dr. Greco. He was extremely informative and we sat down when I initially arrived and he was great at explaining how the PRP process works, what to expect, and the science behind it. Really riveting stuff.
> 
> The actual procedure wasn't the most pleasant experience I ever had, but it wasn't intolerable. Blood was drawn, platelets were separated, and thus injected throughout the top of my scalp.
> 
> I did have a headache throughout the day, as well as some dizziness, but this is common and what Dr. Greco advised might occur. Looking forward to possible regrowth if any. I'll keep you all posted on my progress.


 I know you just had it, but based on what you heard, do you think its worth it? I spoke to a Dr Cooley rep today about it and she acted like I was going see pretty significant results...definitely selling the product. They also wanted $2500 for this though...PRP+Acell. Is that what you got? I believe I read that you only were paying roughly $1200ish. I wonder why the big price difference. I will definitely ask them to explain the deal. I live in NC, about 4hrs from Cooley...but I'd definitely drive up to NY to save over 1k. I just really have read/seen very few positive results about this procedure, I'd be fine wasting 1k, but over 2k kinda hurts my bankroll...

----------


## PinotQ

FYI  I tried PRP+Acell from Dr. Cooley.  My experience was that I didn't see any change until about the 4 month mark, which is exactly what he told me would happen.  Then I saw a definite improvement, at least in the crown.  Unfortunately, the positive effects faded after 3 to 4 months.  Would be interested to know if others have had longer lasting success.  I'm sure Dr. Cooley will continue to tweak and improve as he seemed detailed and analytical.......very professional.

----------


## Ginkosama

Create your own damn topic for PRP.

----------


## Jcm800

Anyone got any updates? Myself - around four months in, nothing much happening, still itching, still losing ground, still praying.

----------


## Cob984

nothing good to report, this treatment is pure garbage, was hoping it would work on my androgen sensitive body
looks like for me its sides or hair unfortunately

----------


## 534623

> nothing good to report, this treatment is pure garbage


 Which treatment?
I mean, guys talk about lots of different "treatments" in this thread - or about different combinations of "treatments" and/or drugs/medications.

----------


## Jcm800

> Which treatment?
> I mean, guys talk about lots of different "treatments" in this thread - or about different combinations of "treatments" and/or drugs/medications.


 I'm referring to the combo, as stated - along with trx2. Sadly my centre parting is getting wider and my crown is opening up, it ain't filling in gutted  :Frown:

----------


## fred970

It won't fill up, this theard is a joke, but seriously, why a title like "a fin alternative"?

----------


## b0urna

Nearly 4 months in. Still shedding but from all over my head. In general my hair looks pretty good, my temples and top of my head seem better than they did 4 months ago, though crown looks around the same. I feel like this combo is helping, so I'm going to review again at 6months, then 9, then 12. I think I could benefit from a growth stimulant, I'm considering TRX2 but it seems expensive and very mixed results. 
Would be good to get some response from gutted on this thread.

----------


## Jcm800

I think gutted has ran away again. Lol. Prob tired of repeating himself.

----------


## Cob984

or he has drowned in a sea of his bs

----------


## Jcm800

That's harsh, I believe it's worked for him, and he has said give it 12 months etc, but I just don't see any signs of things turning around, I wish I did.  I run my fingers thru my hair and its feeling whispier, not denser.

----------


## b0urna

Ha shit cob, your bitter man. Jcm, hopefully things will stabilise, lets try to stay patient

----------


## Jcm800

Yeah I'm biting my lip, fingers and legs crossed. There's no reason for gutted to lie, just think I don't respond to anything. Last resort is fin, doubt that'd help either.

----------


## b0urna

> Yeah I'm biting my lip, fingers and legs crossed. There's no reason for gutted to lie, just think I don't respond to anything. Last resort is fin, doubt that'd help either.


 Tell me about it. SP has warned my body to steer well clear of DHT blockers, and I prefer my sex life to my hair, but if worst comes to worst I may try fin. Jcm have you tried MSM topically? Seems to give hair a massive thickening effect, without using synthetic particles like topix

----------


## Jcm800

I've never tried sp, is that even effective to any degree? 
Never tried msm topically, how do you prepare that mate?

----------


## TheBadger

> I think gutted has ran away again. Lol. Prob tired of repeating himself.


 People keep saying this and he keeps coming back after a while. If you were recovering you wouldn't be coming here all the time either, I know I'd take great delight in deleting every trace of this place from my browser history for good. Either way he'll probably be back just like every other time.




> Nearly 4 months in. Still shedding but from all over my head. In general my hair looks pretty good, my temples and top of my head seem better than they did 4 months ago, though crown looks around the same. I feel like this combo is helping, so I'm going to review again at 6months, then 9, then 12. I think I could benefit from a growth stimulant, I'm considering TRX2 but it seems expensive and very mixed results. 
> Would be good to get some response from gutted on this thread.


 You comparing using pics? Not asking for them, just for an idea whether it could just be a psychological improvement. And shedding as in normal levels all over or high all over? Not like this was ever going to stop shedding all over, hair usually does just fine with its normal shedding levels. About the only time I can see how much I'm shedding in the affected areas is when I comb just the top/front because in the shower etc the back and sides usually throw out loads as it is.

----------


## b0urna

> I've never tried sp, is that even effective to any degree? 
> Never tried msm topically, how do you prepare that mate?


 SP stopped my shedding completely within a few days, but gave me nasty sides. Some guys on immortalhair are mixing msm with DMSO, some are just mixing it with water and spraying it on their scalps (msm is water soluble). Personally I just mix it in with my shampoo and conditioner.

----------


## Jcm800

What kind of sp did you take, complex?  I understand there's different types, not sure tho? What sides did you experience mayI ask? Gutted doesn't recommend sp, not sure I'll try it just curious, and getting a touch desperado as well lol.  
Might try the topical msm approach, it's cheap enough, thanks.

----------


## b0urna

> People keep saying this and he keeps coming back after a while. If you were recovering you wouldn't be coming here all the time either, I know I'd take great delight in deleting every trace of this place from my browser history for good. Either way he'll probably be back just like every other time.
> 
> 
> You comparing using pics? Not asking for them, just for an idea whether it could just be a psychological improvement. And shedding as in normal levels all over or high all over? Not like this was ever going to stop shedding all over, hair usually does just fine with its normal shedding levels. About the only time I can see how much I'm shedding in the affected areas is when I comb just the top/front because in the shower etc the back and sides usually throw out loads as it is.


 I totally agree, it would be a great relief to not have that urge in the back of my brain to check this site daily. I'm not currently taking photos, my mirror is proof enough with wet and dry hair for me personally.

----------


## b0urna

> What kind of sp did you take, complex?  I understand there's different types, not sure tho? What sides did you experience mayI ask? Gutted doesn't recommend sp, not sure I'll try it just curious, and getting a touch desperado as well lol.  
> Might try the topical msm approach, it's cheap enough, thanks.


 Yep I took complex. I wouldn't recommend either tbh. The sides I experienced were itchy rashes over my whole body, hot flushes, boil like spots, the last side I experienced before I gave up was a swelled nipple that went hard and sensitive. 
As for the topical msm, yep it's cheap so what have you got to lose.

----------


## Cob984

try the sp, its not scary, iv reintroduced it at one 125mg extract every other day,
the sides it gave me are slight libido issues, and bloating i.e. more fat than usual

i was on 250mg/day then, now lets see if this dose is more tolerable and even helpful

----------


## MrBlonde

> Nearly 4 months in. Still shedding but from all over my head. In general my hair looks pretty good, my temples and top of my head seem better than they did 4 months ago, though crown looks around the same. I feel like this combo is helping, so I'm going to review again at 6months, then 9, then 12. I think I could benefit from a growth stimulant, I'm considering TRX2 but it seems expensive and very mixed results. 
> Would be good to get some response from gutted on this thread.


 This is what I am experiencing too and I'm about 4 months in too.  The crown is a little worse off than it was and the hair got thinner in general but I seem to be hanging on for now and hope to see regrowth over the next 6 months.

----------


## gutted

Hi guys, first and foremost happy new year to all!

i apologise for not coming back as often as i used to, to answer questions.

i no longer feel the need to come here as much as i used to. I WILL proide updates on my situation which i will do periodiocailly, (which is more wise than every day or week that some are doing!!, this wont help in any way but make you feel more depressed! it takes time, ALOT of time...)

I havent read everything since i left the thread but have had a quick read a couple of pages back.


i will try to come back and answer questions as often as i can this week so post them.


As for my situtation i am improving, but very very slowly like i say, time is very much essential to this regime! please do NOT underestimate it. 
i would LOVE for my temples to fill in which is the only thing about my hair that slightley bothers me, but i know this wont happen with this regime, at best im confident i will maintain what i have (which IMO is a big achievement). Anyhow with a bit of styling it pretty much goes unoticeable to the average person.

Please read the following carefully.

There are obviously some here who arnet getting results and some who are. Ive outlined what can affect results primarily dht suppressors! if your using one either internally or topically i wouldnt bother with this regime.

If youve recently dropped these dht inhibiting substances you *NEED* to give it aprrox 3 months for everything to return to normal again, in this time frame you will THIN out/shed hairs like never before in your life (*this varies between individuals*), you WILL also expeience oily hair/itches, maybe even more hornier than usual.

*THIS DOES NOT IN ANY WAY MEAN MSM/C IS NOT WORKING FOR YOU.*

what you have to do is allow 3 months for everything to normalise and then start the 12/18 month plan (thats a *total* of 21 months) *CONSISTENTLY*, without the use of dht suppressors...*going back and forth will f*** up you hair cycle clock.* this is NOT the way this regime works if you do, do this, then you will have to start from scratch.


For those that are taking it without *known* dht suppressors, you need to make SURE you are not taking anything else that MAY affect hormone levels in any way, vitamins/other conpounds CAN and DO, do this.

Also daily medications for other diseases may affect your results too.

Shampoos may also affect your results i.e nizoral/dht suppressing shampoos etc

For those that are taking this *faithfully without (RE)INTRODUCING anything to your regime* and still not seeing the reduction in oil and itch - i can only say you may not be suffering from androgenetic alopecia but a differnt type of loss OR you have not given it enough time.

Anrogentic alopecia has symptoms such as excessively oily hair in addition to itches - if you have these symptoms you are most likley going to go bald if its not sorted out. Using this as an assessment rather than the norwood scale (which doesnt predict if you will bald but shows you once it occurs!) to predict if you will go bald is a VERY good way to determine if you will go bald in the future and try to treat it before it occurs. Non balders have extremeley dry hair.

if anyone has any questions please post them will try and get back to them.

Thanks

----------


## gutted

> I'm referring to the combo, as stated - along with trx2. Sadly my centre parting is getting wider and my crown is opening up, it ain't filling in gutted


 jc, are you back on the minox? any changes to the regime?

are the backs and sides still itching for you?

----------


## gutted

> Well this thread has steered off-topic but I am wondering what happened to gutted? I have  used this combo for 3 months but only take a few grams of each daily. To be honest the only things I noticed growing faster were my nails and the hair on my head. I didn't experience any regrowth as far as I can see. I have really noticed a difference in my joints which seems to have been the most beneficial aspect of this combo on my body. 
> 
> I just recently cut my hair short about a 3/4" length and man my hair is in terrible shape. It doesn't help that I'm a diffuse thinner so I have lost density all over my head not just in the typical MPB areas. I know what I am currently taking (MSM, Vit. C, *Saw Palmetto*) is most likely not working, probably never was so I am SOL because I refuse to take Finasteride for my own reasons.
> 
> I have pretty much after alot of soul searching accepted my fate and since I already have a wife and kids it isn't so bad really. I feel bad for younger brahs who are just starting off because I know it can be devastating to their social/love lives. I'm probably just gonna continue taking 2g-3g each of this combo daily just for maintenance may drop the SP but will continue for the time being. Goodluck to all but I wouldn't be expecting much from this combo. Besides, the only one who claimed to see improvement was gutted and perhaps he is just lucky to respond positively to MSM but he refuses to post pictures so we only have his word to go on.


 
saw palmetto...trying to convince people that dht suppression has a negative effect on your hair is going to be like trying to convince athiests god exists without much evidence to back it up.

DHT suppression is much more detrimental than you or the average hair loss sufferer are aware...put it this way you would not be balding as severley as you are now had you not started saw palmetto/suppressed dht! Chances are you would of balded much slower leaving it untreated.

It takes a VERY VERY long time to recover from the effects of dht suppression, but it can be done with the right frame of mind....patience is all that is required.

----------


## MrBlonde

I posted some questions about your hair and some contradictions I thought surrounded your posts about twenty pages back but I don't hink you looked back far enough.  Here it is




> Originally Posted by gutted View Post
> If you have diffuse hair loss throughout the scalp, im confident you will see a reversal. First changes are seen at the crown.


 I am diffuse throughout the scalp Gutted and its worrying, I am 3 months in and getting thinner whilst on this regiem. I shed mainly at the hairline too.

I would like to get an idea of exactly how aggressive and advanced your MPB was and just to make sure it was MPB and not TE or something else you could have recovered from with help of this program.

Where you thinning all over the scalp before you addressed you MPB with this program? because you said this before




> no when i started the combo, there was no signs of thinning. Its only when i started other supplements that caused the thinning. That has slowly reversed itself over the last few months.


 What I'm getting at is how can you say this will reverse diffuse thinning when you say were not experiencing it before this program? It was only a supplemental reaction that caused it and was easily reversable.

Why did you start this if there was no thinning?

In this exchange you seem to contradict the above and say you were thinning before this treatment





> Originally Posted by MrBlonde View Post
> So you were not thinning before this treatment or you were? I cant remember.
> 			
> 		
> 
>  yes i was thinning in a diffuse manner BECAUSE of mpb, most visible on the left side.


 




> Originally Posted by MrBlonde View Post
> Did you hair feel flat, limp or thin at all at any stage and would you say your hair is thick now? How was your crown looking?
> 			
> 		
> 
>  yes it was flat, thin, and limp, because of the thinning that had occured because of mpb. Not AFTER i started this combo. I never witnessed this. My crown was not "bad" but i could tell i was starting to lose density in this region, but not noticeable to the naked eye.


 Can you clarify please.

You also say your hair is shedding but at a normal level




> yes i have a normal shedding pattern and this is all over, hairline included. Its normal to lose hairs.
> 
> No my hairline has stopped receeding, there has been no recession for over a year now. Im confident its staying put. I know on the right side i can see density improving, i also expect this to happen on the left although in a few months time.


 So your hairline is not receeding and your not thinning but you may not have ever been or had a problem in this area, i'm not sure. If you were not thinning and are saying that it will work for those that are you are taking a big risk with other ppls hair.

We are talking about diffuse thinning and miniturization as the same thing here yes?

I am just trying to get some clarity on your level of MPB and was it really a problem as it is for the rest of us or were you at an early recoverable stageother and some key issues I meant to address before but never did. I am not saying you are lying to us. I know when you are replying to a lot of posts you may contradict yourself accidently.

----------


## gutted

> I posted some questions about your hair and some contradictions I thought surrounded your posts about twenty pages back but I don't hink you looked back far enough.  Here it is
> 
> 
> 
> I am diffuse throughout the scalp Gutted and its worrying, I am 3 months in and getting thinner whilst on this regiem. I shed mainly at the hairline too.
> 
> I would like to get an idea of exactly how aggressive and advanced your MPB was and just to make sure it was MPB and not TE or something else you could have recovered from with help of this program.
> 
> Where you thinning all over the scalp before you addressed you MPB with this program? because you said this before
> ...


 
hi, sorry will do now.

For me to answer this i will have to go back a few years when i first noticed hair loss and describe what has gone on since then.

I first noticed hair loss/minor reccession after getting out of surgery for an operation. There was no signs of diffuse thinning/just temporal recession which was in no way noticeable to anyone but me.

I tried to treat this very mild recession via the dht suppressing avenue to "prevent" future mpb as i was brainwashed into beliveing my fate is "genetically" sealed (i was naive and young back then too!). 
This worked great and even regrew a bunch of hairs! Things changed pretty fast and i started to lose alot more than i would have done. Also the fact that i had side effects such as major weight gain, feeling like shit/sexual sides i decided to stop suppressing dht in the end.

Around the same time i quit i experienced further diffuse thinning in the typical mpb regions which at the time i put down to "genetic mpb progression"

Eventually i tried a bunch of treatments from inneove homme to tocotreniols. I cant say they did much if anything and i was left with a diffuse thinning look.

Around the same time i heard about msm, and how it can be used to grow hair quicker and thought what the hell i will take it "i may recover what i had lost". During that period of taking this i noticed aonther unusual effect on a sebacaeous cyst (about a pea size) that i had. It started to shrink! i decided to stick with it for this reason to see if it would shrink any further. From what i recollect, i still had this visible diffuse thinning in my hair.

A few months later trx2 popped up. I tried the individual ingredients (with some worsening of my hair loss with high doses of niacin!) and then jumped on actual trx2 (still taking the MSM) when released and eventually dropped the individual ingredients and stuck with trx2/msm consistently from then on

What i noticed was diffuseness started to slowly fill in, the crown was more fuller/denser and had more volume added to it. Things were really good as far as diffuseness goes! but at the time i craved for temple regrowth!

Anyway a few months (last year) back, like a fool, i decided to introduce saw palmetto to my regime again to see if i could achieve some temple growth using it...i was wrong, this increased oil/itches and caused me to thin noticeabley on the left side which is what im recovering from over the last few months.

So to answer your question, yes i suffer from androgentic alopecia/and did/do have diffuse thinning.


Yes i have a normal shedding pattern when sticking with msm/c/trx2, changing this by introducing certain stuff causes an increase in shed levels. You will usually shed throughout the scalp include the backs and sides. 

No diffiuse thinning is NOT minutuarisation. Minutuarisaion involves hair diameter decresing, diffuse thinning involves more hairs leaving the scalp than usual, which is how MPB manifests in most people.

----------


## Jcm800

> jc, are you back on the minox? any changes to the regime?
> 
> are the backs and sides still itching for you?


 Hi gutted. Am tapering back onto minox gradually, too early to comment on that really. 

No changes other than I'm taking the combo spaced out three times per day. Been on it around four months now, nothing positive to report, at least that I'm noticing, am still itchy, randomly all over really.

----------


## gutted

> Hi gutted. Am tapering back onto minox gradually, too early to comment on that really. 
> 
> No changes other than I'm taking the combo spaced out three times per day. Been on it around four months now, nothing positive to report, at least that I'm noticing, am still itchy, randomly all over really.


 

i really dont know what to say mate. Perhaps this is not for you. You may have some other scalp condition.

----------


## Jcm800

> i really dont know what to say mate. Perhaps this is not for you. You may have some other scalp condition.


 Dunno, i'm also getting those damn bumps again at the nape of my neck, the irritated kinda painful ones, that flare up now and then, perhaps i'm doomed then - i'll carry on with this - my only other option is Fin, can't bring myself to try it tho..

----------


## gutted

> Dunno, i'm also getting those damn bumps again at the nape of my neck, the irritated kinda painful ones, that flare up now and then, perhaps i'm doomed then - i'll carry on with this - my only other option is Fin, can't bring myself to try it tho..


 i think it may be wise for you to go see a doc. There are other types of loss other than mpb. I remember you stating you itch on the sides and backs which is pretty much nonexistant/unusual for MPB.
it may even be an adverse reaction to minox.

----------


## Jcm800

Hmm a doc might just rec getting of Fin?! Well, i had the itch when i was on Minox and off it, not sure it's down to that, in fact i never had the ageing/palpitations/bloated face others report on it, just shedded and didnt regrow when i tried it previously.

looks like mpb to me mate, temple recession, diffuse crown etc, what else could it be?! The odd thing tho is it doesnt run in my family, older bro has every hair on his head, dad wasnt bald etc - i'm the unlucky fkr it would seem.

----------


## clandestine

Jcm; It likely is mpb. And the doc will just script fin. These are likely the realities of your situation.

----------


## Jcm800

That's what I'm thinking clandestine. Have you bitten the bullet and tried fin yet out of interest?

Last time I spoke to my doc about fin, expressing my concerns about sides he shrugged them off and said every drug has sides, go for it.  Great advice I'm sure. Two years later I still don't trust him lol.

----------


## gutted

> Hmm a doc might just rec getting of Fin?! Well, i had the itch when i was on Minox and off it, not sure it's down to that, in fact i never had the ageing/palpitations/bloated face others report on it, just shedded and didnt regrow when i tried it previously.
> 
> looks like mpb to me mate, temple recession, diffuse crown etc, what else could it be?! The odd thing tho is it doesnt run in my family, older bro has every hair on his head, dad wasnt bald etc - i'm the unlucky fkr it would seem.


 the itch all over the head is pretty unusual which makes me think its something else, but a diffuse crown is certainly an indication of mpb. It could be a scalp bacterial infection of some sort.

dont touch fin!!! you will regret it,but its a decesion only you can make.

good luck whatever you decide to do mate.

----------


## b0urna

Happy new year gutted. Thanks for dropping by. 
Iv been on the msm/vitc religiously for the past 4 months, I don't take any other treatments, vitamins, special shampoos or medications. I seem to be doing well on this combo, and my shedding rate has come down, in fact my hair feels better than it has done for the past 2 years. My crown is my main concern right now, so iv been thinking of adding trx2 for some regrowth. The price seems kind of high however and iv heard really mixed reviews on the stuff, which might be because users are combining it with other treatments. Anyway my question is, are you sure the trx2 was what provided you with regrowth, or do you think the msm would have filled this hair in anyway? and would you advise trx2 over minox? Thanks

----------


## Jcm800

> the itch all over the head is pretty unusual which makes me think its something else, but a diffuse crown is certainly an indication of mpb. It could be a scalp bacterial infection of some sort.
> 
> dont touch fin!!! you will regret it,but its a decesion only you can make.
> 
> good luck whatever you decide to do mate.


 It's not a crazy demonic itch all over gutted, i just find myself scratching here and there - could just be habit, but nah - theres an itch, just like to stress i'm not scratching away at my scalp drawing blood everywhere.

I won't touch Fin, at least not yet. I have too much to lose if it goes tits up, and my hair isnt worth that. But i always think, maybe i'd be lucky and benefit and dodge the bullet - but i doubt that.

I willl however carry on with this - for a long time yet. I may drop the trx2 tho, still not convinced that stuff is nothing but a scam, and it's pricey.

----------


## gutted

> Happy new year gutted. Thanks for dropping by. 
> Iv been on the msm/vitc religiously for the past 4 months, I don't take any other treatments, vitamins, special shampoos or medications. I seem to be doing well on this combo, and my shedding rate has come down, in fact my hair feels better than it has done for the past 2 years. My crown is my main concern right now, so iv been thinking of adding trx2 for some regrowth. The price seems kind of high however and iv heard really mixed reviews on the stuff, which might be because users are combining it with other treatments. Anyway my question is, are you sure the trx2 was what provided you with regrowth, or do you think the msm would have filled this hair in anyway? and would you advise trx2 over minox? Thanks


 
hi thanks happy new year to you to.

Its good to hear the combo is working for some people at least! 
Perhaps people who arent seeing results should take a leaf out of your book and stop playing around with different combos and use it alone and as directed...just a thought.

I do belive trx2 can provide regrowth but its very slow, and results appear over time. In fact the crown region is the first areas i recollect seeing my first results. 
If you DONT have your hair loss under control (using MSM) then there is NO point in taking trx2, you will only lose the hairs that trx2 regrows for you making it look like trx2 didnt really do much apart from empty your wallet. So its very wise to take both together.

I really cant say if MSM alone can provide regrowth, maybe some minor regrowth i.e hairs that were just recently lost within the last few months, but as for hairs that were lost over a long period i.e dormant, trx2 may be the one to help you out there.

Yes i would recommend trx2 over minox.

----------


## gutted

> It's not a *crazy demonic itch all over gutted,* i just find myself scratching here and there - could just be habit, but nah - theres an itch, just like to stress i'm not scratching away at my scalp drawing blood everywhere.
> 
> I won't touch Fin, at least not yet. I have too much to lose if it goes tits up, and my hair isnt worth that. But i always think, maybe i'd be lucky and benefit and dodge the bullet - but i doubt that.
> 
> I willl however carry on with this - for a long time yet. I may drop the trx2 tho, still not convinced that stuff is nothing but a scam, and it's pricey.


 lool i see, thats good, everyone has a bit of an itch here and there from the use of styling products etc, how oily is your hair? 

perhaps use msm alone, drop the trx2 may be the way for you to go.

----------


## Jcm800

> lool i see, thats good, everyone has a bit of an itch here and there from the use of styling products etc, how oily is your hair? 
> 
> perhaps use msm alone, drop the trx2 may be the way for you to go.


 Hmm my hair needs to be washed every other day, if i dont wash it for two days or more it appears lank and greasy. Although i've just had it cut shorter and messy and it appears to have a bit more volume, i guess thats due to hair appearing thicker when cut shorter.

I'll run with trx for at least three more months, my next order is the freebie (which i hope they honour, did they honour your one year freebie qtr?)

----------


## gutted

> Hmm my hair needs to be washed every other day, if i dont wash it for two days or more it appears lank and greasy. Although i've just had it cut shorter and messy and it appears to have a bit more volume, i guess thats due to hair appearing thicker when cut shorter.
> 
> I'll run with trx for at least three more months, my next order is the freebie (which i hope they honour, did they honour your one year freebie qtr?)


 msm does cut back on oil alot so you should be able to go without washing your hair for a few days at least.

yes they do honor the freebies.

----------


## Jcm800

> msm does cut back on oil alot so you should be able to go without washing your hair for a few days at least.
> 
> yes they do honor the freebies.


 I guess in my case, my loss has been slow but steady for at least 10 years, any treatment is gonna have to take a while to kick in, maybe a long while in my case - just a thought.

Glad they honour the freebies lol, i'm pleased about that!

Perhaps im not taking enough gutted? I take 9 grams of msm spaced out 3 times per day as mentioned earlier. along with that i take usually 1 500mg vit c per 3 msm caps. Maybe i should up it? What do you think, is that enough?!

----------


## gutted

> I guess in my case, my loss has been slow but steady for at least 10 years, any treatment is gonna have to take a while to kick in, maybe a long while in my case - just a thought.
> 
> Glad they honour the freebies lol, i'm pleased about that!
> 
> Perhaps im not taking enough gutted? I take 9 grams of msm spaced out 3 times per day as mentioned earlier. along with that i take usually 1 500mg vit c per 3 msm caps. Maybe i should up it? What do you think, is that enough?!


 i think your taking more than enough. As long as you can, without a doubt say your hair/nails are growing faster than it has done previously, then you are getting adequate amounts.

To be honest i think all you need is time and probably a holiday away from BTT! 
re introducing minox will obviously make you go through a shed of some sort again. This quite frankly is becoming a cycle of starting and stopping treatments. Its no good for your hair. you need to break this cycle.

----------


## Jcm800

Lol a holiday. Yeah perhaps I do. Nails and hair are for sure growing fast, little doubt about that. 

I hear you re the minox, got loads left and thought I'd try it in conjunction with this combo that's all being as it's not a dht blocker and you didn't discount me using it a while back, so I started up again.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Around the same time i quit i experienced further diffuse thinning in the typical mpb regions which at the time i put down to "genetic mpb progression"
> 
> 
> What i noticed was diffuseness started to slowly fill in, the crown was more fuller/denser and had more volume added to it. Things were really good as far as diffuseness goes! but at the time i craved for temple regrowth!
> 
> 
> 
> So to answer your question, yes i suffer from androgentic alopecia/and did/do have diffuse thinning.
> 
> ...


 Ok so you had and are experiencing thinning.  How thin did your hair get at its worse point?  Could you see much of that scalp when the hair was wet for exapmle?

Do you believe this would work of minituarising hair also?  You say tHey are different but do both not stem from MPB and in essence they same, those thinning hairs are falling out because they shrink and become so weak.

----------


## gutted

> Lol a holiday. Yeah perhaps I do. Nails and hair are for sure growing fast, little doubt about that. 
> 
> I hear you re the minox, got loads left and thought I'd try it in conjunction with this combo that's all being as it's not a dht blocker and you didn't discount me using it a while back, so I started up again.


 yes i remember,if you really do want to use a proven treatment i would reccomend minox over dht suppressors, but you should be aware that you will probably go through another shed of some sort.

This time round you should stick with the minox for a decent length of time...starting and stopping just messes up the hair cycles, which isnt going to give you the desired visbile effects.

----------


## Cob984

one person claims his hair is in decent shape apart from gutted? so thats it right? this is the nirvana of all treatments ROFL

joke treatment this,

----------


## b0urna

> one person claims his hair is in decent shape apart from gutted? so thats it right? this is the nirvana of all treatments ROFL
> 
> joke treatment this,


 No-one said this is the nirvana of hairloss treatments, all we are doing it giving it a chance. We all know hairloss sufferers have very limited options right now, otherwise we wouldn't be sat around checking hair forums multiple times a day. Cob I think you should stay open minded or stop flaming on this thread, it's only been a few months so try and stay patient.

----------


## ovoxo

> msm does cut back on oil alot so you should be able to go without washing your hair for a few days at least.
> 
> yes they do honor the freebies.


 I think msm increased oil production for me, I also have to wash my head everyday and I always have oily forehead

----------


## TheBadger

> I really cant say if MSM alone can provide regrowth, maybe some minor regrowth i.e hairs that were just recently lost within the last few months, but as for hairs that were lost over a long period i.e dormant, trx2 may be the one to help you out there.


 Take it you're defining regrowth as lost hairs coming back here? Seen as the rest of your posts talk about reversal and diffuseness filling back in.




> No diffiuse thinning is NOT minutuarisation. Minutuarisaion involves hair diameter decresing, diffuse thinning involves more hairs leaving the scalp than usual, which is how MPB manifests in most people.


 This confuses me though. It's called thinning because hair gets thinner, which it does because it's miniturising. Hair shedding earlier is part of the reason why it does this, yeah, but they do go hand in hand. 

Just trying to work out what the realistic best scenario for this is. I don't honestly care about making my hairline any better, it's not brilliant but if it stayed like this I really wouldn't be bothered, don't care about getting my full former density back, if I had enough density to not be able to see through it in normal daylight I'd be over the moon. It got really wavy too easily before anyway (though I sure do miss that now).

----------


## Cob984

you guys will lose your mind if you actually try to piece together anything from gutteds first posts to his recent ones,
the amount of revisions and contradictions and his 'explanations' are downright comical

----------


## gutted

> Take it you're defining regrowth as *lost* hairs coming back here? Seen as the rest of your posts talk about reversal and diffuseness filling back in.
> 
> 
> This confuses me though. It's called thinning because hair gets thinner, which it does because it's miniturising. Hair shedding earlier is part of the reason why it does this, yeah, but they do go hand in hand. 
> 
> Just trying to work out what the realistic best scenario for this is. I don't honestly care about making my hairline any better, it's not brilliant but if it stayed like this I really wouldn't be bothered, don't care about getting my full former density back, if I had enough density to not be able to see through it in normal daylight I'd be over the moon. It got really wavy too easily before anyway (though I sure do miss that now).


 sorry i meant "shed". Diffuseness can occur because of sheds or due to MPB (loss). There is no way of knowing why the diffuseness has occured whether its down to mpb or an efflivium of some sort. Most mpb'ers lose hair in a diffuse manner. I wouldnt rely on msm for regrowth, it MAY provide it, but im only confident to say that it can maintain what you currently have.

Yes diffuse thinning is commonly reffered to as hairs being *lost in abundance in specific regions* where as minuturisation is the *decrese in hair diameter* over time and yes they can both occur together (go hand in hand) making hair looking much more thinner than if one were to only occur. Chances are most mpb'ers are experiencing both but this can in some cases not be the case.

i would just stick with the msm, evaluate every month to few months.

The intresting thing about this is that, even with dht suppressors such as fin/saw palmetto, in the first few weeks of starting them hair grows faster than it normally would, ive experienced this too! BUT the case with dht suppressors is that the speed of growth drops off after a few weeks further implying dht suppressors only work for a short period of time (eventually becoming sugar pills)...with msm the speed is maintained throughout.

This also sort of gives an indication as to what dht's role in hair is too!

----------


## gutted

> I think msm increased oil production for me, I also have to wash my head everyday and I always have oily forehead


 
do you take with a lot fluids? water?

also you dont take anything else as medications right?

shampoos?

also are you sure you are taking pure msm? have you noted faster hair growth/nail growth?

thanks

----------


## the_dude78

Gutted, I've been trying to figure out what exactly it is you get out of all this. I mean, you're not selling anything, you're not advertising specific brands and you don't seem to be trying to get people to join a cult. I just don't get it. Vitamin C and MSM will not halt or regrow any hair if you suffer from MPB, plenty of users on this board have proven that, a friend of mine, who refuses to go on propecia, have tried it for 4 months, and this does not work. It is as simple as that, and yet you continue on your quest.. whatever that is.

I'm guessing it must be the attention you get, some people seek attention in the strangest ways.

----------


## ovoxo

no I don't use any other medication, even dropped rogaine, as for the shampoo I use neutrogena t gel, MSM - webber naturals optiMSM

faster nail growth, better joints, faster body hair growth


but my scalp is itching, forehead is oily, I have to wash my hair everyday

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, I've been trying to figure out what exactly it is you get out of all this. I mean, you're not selling anything, you're not advertising specific brands and you don't seem to be trying to get people to join a cult. I just don't get it. Vitamin C and MSM will not halt or regrow any hair if you suffer from MPB, plenty of users on this board have proven that, a friend of mine, who refuses to go on propecia, have tried it for 4 months, and this does not work. It is as simple as that, and yet you continue on your quest.. whatever that is.
> 
> I'm guessing it must be the attention you get, some people seek attention in the strangest ways.


 lool there is no quest here just sharing my experiences, neither am i getting anything out of it. I only came back here to see how people are getting on.

yes well that may be what you believe but i certainly dont!

----------


## gutted

> no I don't use any other medication, even dropped rogaine, as for the shampoo I use neutrogena t gel, MSM - webber naturals optiMSM
> 
> faster nail growth, better joints, faster body hair growth
> 
> 
> but my scalp is itching, forehead is oily, I have to wash my hair everyday


 have you used accutane any time previously?

----------


## ovoxo

nope

10char

----------


## Space

> nope
> 
> 10char


 Maybe you have some kind of deficiency, itchy and oily scalp could simply be related to bad eating habits.

My advice would be to look over your eating habits and perhaps get on some supplements, like a good multivitamin for example.

----------


## gutted

> nope
> 
> 10char


 
did you use any dht suppressors? and give time for those effects to normalise?
also what is your age?

----------


## ovoxo

I used nizoral, which I stopped 5-6 months ago; I'm 21

----------


## gutted

> I used nizoral, which I stopped 5-6 months ago; I'm 21


 ok, im not quite sure then, maybe give it a month more on this and then re-evaluate your situation.

----------


## bigentries

Totally forgot about this thread and now I see it has reached gargantuan proportions

Any cliffs? something interesting was found?

----------


## bananana

Almost 4 months for me. 

Oil still low, itch still low, nails and skin still far better. 
No regrowth so far. No loss so far.

I think I'm going to order that divine hair oil - there is much talk about it on other forums.

If msm can keep what I've got - I'm super satisfied at least until histogen/aderans is available.

I'm also thinking about going to dr. nigam if more people will have good results with him. I believe there is something genuine there.

----------


## Jcm800

Surely that divine hair oil smells of snake oil?!

----------


## bananana

> Surely that divine hair oil smells of snake oil?!


 Well I dont really know.

I believe I read some guys on other forums had good experience with it... 

Here are some quotes:
GOOD
_Originally Posted by Cob984  
thanks for the update mate,
its been 1 week using the product for me and my hair definitely feels better so i will continue to see where this leads me,_ 

BAD
_10 week update- This product definitely does not work. Still losing hair. The temples have thinned and receded about 1/4th of an inch since I started. Not sure how they can still go on claiming this product regrows your hair on their website. Who are these people that got these results? I'd like to meet them.
_

I dont know, reviews are mixed.

----------


## ovoxo

> ok, im not quite sure then, maybe give it a month more on this and then re-evaluate your situation.


 I'm going to stop, I feel my hair is worse, after 4 months I think it did nothing for my hair

----------


## clandestine

I'm entirely surprised this has so many pages. While having not tried it personally, I don't feel this is a 'Hidden Gem' of any sort.

----------


## Space

> I'm going to stop, I feel my hair is worse, after 4 months I think it did nothing for my hair


 You should take into account what I wrote to you, there are more nutrients than MSM and it's kind of stupid to just experiment with one at a time.

----------


## ovoxo

well if I'm itching because of some kind of deficiency, and it is not mpb itch, then MSM/vit (if it works) should stop hair loss, even though I still itch. But I think my hair got worse and therefore I think it is not working. At least not for me.

----------


## Irishamerica

I have been on the regime for 3 months and have noticed a difference. The main dif is the redecution in oil and itch . I used to have a bad itch (oily Skin too ) in my MPB regions and that was gone . Probably shed about 30-40 hair s a day and have quite. If a itch reduction definalty means my MPB is slowing down than i am on the right track

----------


## MrBlonde

> I have been on the regime for 3 months and have noticed a difference. The main dif is the redecution in oil and itch . I used to have a bad itch (oily Skin too ) in my MPB regions and that was gone . Probably shed about 30-40 hair s a day *and have quite*. If a itch reduction definalty means my MPB is slowing down than i am on the right track


 You mean quit right?  Very good news if true.

My itch stopped very soon after getting on this program (2-3 weeks)  and is still down, I never really had a problem with oil production.  Every now and again I feel a slight itch but I only wash my hair one day a week now, sometimes less, and it put it down to that giving me a slight itch as before it was an itch all day every day.  Now I might fell something for a couple of minutes two days a week and its nothing near the level of itch I felt before.

I still shed but the shed has reduce all over.  I remember going to Manchester to watch the UTD vs Spurs match at the end of September and standing in front of the mirror in the hotel with my hair looking terrible, especially my left temple and then I started to see a lot of thinning on my right temple too, so much so I could see parts of scalp, my hair was wet and I had a bit of gel in it too which didn't help.  I remember thinking this is it, I'm ****ed, it will be gone soon and to compound my misery Utd lost 2-3 at home  :Frown: 

Gutted started this thread in September and once I came back I started on it as I'm not a fan of drugs suck as minox and fin and wanted a healthy natural solution.  My left temple got worse but my right temple got better.  Than my left temple got thicker whilst my right temple thinned a bit but now I seem to have a good balance.  I still lose hair when showering and brushing but thats normal.

I think it was early October I started on this program as the UTD game was the 28th or 29th of September but this program and thread is still in its infancy.  Most of us early adopters are only on month 4 now and it will take 12 months to know if its works.  Some guys are four months but are still using or just recently dropped DHT blockers so the timescale is longer for you.

My point is that ppl calling it a failure and a joke are wrong in doing that.  Some of us have noticed positive signs but none of those ppl have called it and out right success.  Its no coincidence that the majority of those claiming this to be a bad program are dropping and adding DHT  blockers such as SP in a panic regularly.

My verdict?  Its still too early to tell but I have seen enough positives to encourage me to continue.  The itch reduction and what I believe is me entering the reduction in shed phase which would roughly match up with gutted's timeline of events.  

Please note I have been on TRX2 and MSM 9g VitC 4g since day one.

Its not all positive and here are some bad points.  My hair got very thin since starting but it was going to anyway due to my diffuse manner of MPB but hopefully this program has caught it and I can have hair for a few more years yet.  My crown is in bad shape and it seems to be thinning down my middle parting towards my hairline, when the hair is wet I can some scalp, not lots but too much for me.  Again I think all of this was happening in spite of this program not because of it and I pray I have caught it early enough and I'll keep you updated as to whether or not I have.

I think the MSM is beneficial for stopping the rot but also in covering things up.  The hair gets longer quickly so you can move it around to cover up areas.  So it could be giving the impression its doing more than it actually is, time will tell, and I will tell you as soon as I know.

Those of us who have adopted this program have a duty to check in with our reports.  There has been a lot of bickering in this thread lately as we are seeing the timeline is not the same for all and results are varying.  Everybody is different and things like age, diet and general health can effect how quickly you will react.  For the record I am 33 and in good shape health and fitness wise.  I run and hit the gym during the week and have a good weight.  Remember we are all in this together and trying to find something that works.  I believe this is doing something good, if I end up in worse shape in four months you will be the first to know.

  For those of you who recently dropped DHT blockers again you need more patience but you are doing this site a dis-service when you claim this program is fake.  Its neither fake or good yet.  We have 8 months left to go before we will know this.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I'm entirely surprised this has so many pages. While having not tried it personally, I don't feel this is a 'Hidden Gem' of any sort.


 I dont like the way MSM makes my hair feel.

It makes my hair feel really soft.

----------


## ammin

Thats not your hair being softened by MSM. Thats your hair thinning

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Thats not your hair being softened by MSM. Thats your hair thinning


 It's felt that way since taking MSM.

How do I know for sure if it is thinning?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Thats not your hair being softened by MSM. Thats your hair thinning


 
Here is my hair:



It could just by my hair texture tbh. It's always been fine.

----------


## ammin

Jesus Christ. You have a full!!.... thick!! head of hair. What are you doing here. Get lost! Live your life. You have nothing. No Frontal recession No Crown thinning. Nada! I cant believe you people

----------


## dex89

> Here is my hair:
> 
> 
> 
> It could just by my hair texture tbh. It's always been fine.


 Soft hair= better ways to style your hair.

And no your hair is not thinning, maybe around the hairline? MSM did improved my joints from cracking during my works out though  :Smile:

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Jesus Christ. You have a full!!.... thick!! head of hair. What are you doing here. Get lost! Live your life. You have nothing. No Frontal recession No Crown thinning. Nada! I cant believe you people


 I have recession. Currently a NW2

Styling my hair like this atm to hide my hairline:

----------


## b0urna

> I have recession. Currently a NW2
> 
> Styling my hair like this atm to hide my hairline:


 Looks like a NW 1 man, no signs of thinning or loss. Lucky bugger, if I had your density I wouldn't be here. Can you show a shot of your hairline that isn't 'covered'

----------


## Cob984

holy crap that is a lotta hair,

ammin and staythick, please updates on the prp guys, i might fly to the US if it comes to that

----------


## Jcm800

yeahyeahyeah has more hair than I ever had I think lol.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Looks like a NW 1 man, no signs of thinning or loss. Lucky bugger, if I had your density I wouldn't be here. Can you show a shot of your hairline that isn't 'covered'


 

I really hate the sharp V.

Limits my styling options.

----------


## fred970

Oh come on! Yet another guy with body dismorphic disorder!

----------


## clandestine

Can't lie, those pictures piss me off. Sorry yeahyeahyeah; I like you mate, but those pictures piss me off.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Can't lie, those pictures piss me off. Sorry yeahyeahyeah; I like you mate, but those pictures piss me off.


 I'm clearly receeding mate.

----------


## fred970

Clearly? I'm NW5 dude! why don't you go on fullheadofhairtalk! If that exists... And it's psycho's like who will later be claiming having huge success from MSM!

----------


## MrBlonde

In all fairness Yeah yeah yeah all you have is a mature hairline.  No thinning or no loss at the crown.  A slight V shape is nothing to worry about.  Nobody can keep at straight youthful 18 yr old hairline.  NOBODY.

You are lucky and why you are on here is a mystery.

----------


## gutted

> In all fairness Yeah yeah yeah all you have is a mature hairline.  No thinning or no loss at the crown.  A slight V shape is nothing to worry about.  Nobody can keep at straight youthful 18 yr old hairline.  NOBODY.
> 
> You are lucky and why you are on here is a mystery.


 i agree, slight recession is NO indication of full blown MPB. From the looks of it you have no MPB, but if its in a diffuse form, its covered well.

----------


## dex89

> I really hate the sharp V.
> 
> Limits my styling options.


 Bro your hairline is kinda like mine. You can style your hair a bit better to cover the temples. 

MSM made my hair shinny has hell, anyone had the same effects? Also, I've been shedding on the top and back of my hairs for about 3 months when I started using MSM and does areas weren't effected before.

I'm using,

Rogaine foam- twice a day

MSM- everyday

Proscar- every other day

regenepure 1%- 2 a week

Foligan spray- everday

I believe theses products alter my hair loss for the moment. I just need some temple regrowth.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> In all fairness Yeah yeah yeah all you have is a mature hairline.  No thinning or no loss at the crown.  A slight V shape is nothing to worry about.  Nobody can keep at straight youthful 18 yr old hairline.  NOBODY.
> 
> You are lucky and why you are on here is a mystery.


 I dont believe in the mature hairline theory mate.

A mature hairline is just the early stages of hairloss. 

Luckily, my recession is slow.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Bro your hairline is kinda like mine. You can style your hair a bit better to cover the temples. 
> 
> MSM made my hair shinny has hell, anyone had the same effects? Also, I've been shedding on the top and back of my hairs for about 3 months when I started using MSM and does areas weren't effected before.
> 
> I'm using,
> 
> Rogaine foam- twice a day
> 
> MSM- everyday
> ...


 How do you prevent the wind from destroying your hairstyle. It tends to expose my temples.

----------


## dex89

> How do you prevent the wind from destroying your hairstyle. It tends to expose my temples.


 http://www.gorillasnot.us/ I use a little tab of this gel and it does the trick for me. Any gel will actually work, just dont over do it.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> http://www.gorillasnot.us/ I use a little tab of this gel and it does the trick for me. Any gel will actually work, just dont over do it.


 hilarious name

----------


## dex89

haha yeah, this gel is really popular where I live at.

----------


## Cob984

wow dex89 also has so much bloody hair, wtf is this the general profile of people whining on this forum?

----------


## Jcm800

Gutted have you got as much hair as these guys as well?!

----------


## bananana

dex and yeah are INSANE.

no offense guys but by all standards you have A FULL HEAD of hair. Period.

you really DON'T need to be here.  :Smile: 

go out there enjoy life.

----------


## Jcm800

> http://www.gorillasnot.us/ I use a little tab of this gel and it does the trick for me. Any gel will actually work, just dont over do it.


 Baffles me - you've got more hair than a werewolf, wtf is going on?!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> dex and yeah are INSANE.
> 
> no offense guys but by all standards you have A FULL HEAD of hair. Period.
> 
> you really DON'T need to be here. 
> 
> go out there enjoy life.


 Only because we have a lot of hair right now, does not mean we wont lose it.

It is about maintaining.

----------


## dex89

> Only because we have a lot of hair right now, does not mean we wont lose it.
> 
> It is about maintaining.


 Exactly my point, It's all about maintaining it. 23 years old right now and I hope to maintain my Current NW till I'm 40 or Hair transplant will be needed. Everyone has a different type of hair loss, unfortunately some more then others.

----------


## Jcm800

> Exactly my point, It's all about maintaining it. 23 years old right now and I hope to maintain my Current NW till I'm 40 or Hair transplant will be needed. Everyone has a different type of hair loss, unfortunately some more then others.


 True true - we're all at different stages etc, no worries, you're doing the right thing trying to maintain.

----------


## b0urna

Dex and yeahyeahyeah: Fair enough guys if your taking action now, in preparation for the future. Just seems like your over obsessing abit, you have like 2 thousand posts to this forum between you, aderans / replicel / histogen / bim will all be out before you show any real signs of baldness, so take I'd say take a holiday from this forum. Most people on here are frustrated because they don't have any hair, not because they can't find the right gel to make it look pretty.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Dex and yeahyeahyeah: Fair enough guys if your taking action now, in preparation for the future. Just seems like your over obsessing abit, you have like 2 thousand posts to this forum between you, *aderans / replicel / histogen / bim* will all be out before you show any real signs of baldness, so take I'd say take a holiday from this forum. Most people on here are frustrated because they don't have any hair, not because they can't find the right gel to make it look pretty.


 Thats why I am not on fin.

BUT mate, when are these products going to be released, there is no release date on any of them

----------


## StayThick

> Here is my hair:
> 
> 
> 
> It could just by my hair texture tbh. It's always been fine.


 Does anybody else on here feel insulted by this? Is this a joke to some of you? You have more posts then many on this forum and you waste time mingling with baldies on the internet with hair like that?

Don't know about any of you, but I personally am insulted when I see a picture like this, then see somebody claim they are experiencing hair loss. Dude what is wrong with you? You have a mature hairline with full coverage and above average density throughout the top of your scalp. Stop shooting the breeze with us baldies and bang some chicks. If I had hair like yours I wouldn't even know this site existed. Boggles my mind. Talk to girls, your hair is fine. Ridiculous .

----------


## the_dude78

> Does anybody else on here feel insulted by this? Is this a joke to some of you? You have more posts then many on this forum and you waste time mingling with baldies on the internet with hair like that?
> 
> Don't know about any of you, but I personally am insulted when I see a picture like this, then see somebody claim they are experiencing hair loss. Dude what is wrong with you? You have a mature hairline with full coverage and above average density throughout the top of your scalp. Stop shooting the breeze with us baldies and bang some chicks. If I had hair like yours I wouldn't even know this site existed. Boggles my mind. Talk to girls, your hair is fine. Ridiculous .


 I know what you mean. It seems that the most active users on here, are those with completely healthy hair and not a single sign of balding. Ridiculous.

----------


## b0urna

> Does anybody else on here feel insulted by this? Is this a joke to some of you? You have more posts then many on this forum and you waste time mingling with baldies on the internet with hair like that?
> 
> Don't know about any of you, but I personally am insulted when I see a picture like this, then see somebody claim they are experiencing hair loss. Dude what is wrong with you? You have a mature hairline with full coverage and above average density throughout the top of your scalp. Stop shooting the breeze with us baldies and bang some chicks. If I had hair like yours I wouldn't even know this site existed. Boggles my mind. Talk to girls, your hair is fine. Ridiculous .


 This isnt about 'banging some chicks', theres no reason you can't do that without hair. I think it is essential to catch hairloss early, and you've done that, but I agree with some of the above points, if you are going bald its not noticeable by any trained eyes.

----------


## medion1

Yeahyeahyeah and dex

I hate to break this terrible news to you...... 

YOU ARE NOT BALD!!! 

Anyone who has to pull back their HAIR to show off their baldness, isnt bald because they have HAIR!!

This is the problem with these forums. We cannot properly test any substances because the people who use them, aren't bald. They are a bunch of PARANOID 22 year olds, who stare at their temples convincing themselves that "there has been some shedding".

And whenever there are tests, people say "it might have slowed down my loss" or "maybe some vellus hairs have regrown".
 We need to start getting some proper "chrome domes" to test them and only declare that it works if something substantial happens.
 Also we need identical twins in order to have a control, if we are to be scientific, but that is being a bit too hopeful.

In the big scheme of things, non bald people testing these substances are actually ruining any results we could collect.

----------


## the_dude78

> Gutted have you got as much hair as these guys as well?!


 I betting gutted has a full head of hair, just like these guys, that's why this combo is working so well for him.




> wow dex89 also has so much bloody hair, wtf is this the general profile of people whining on this forum?


 I'm begining to think it is. If you're anything below NW2, then just go and live your life instead of coming here to obsess and whine. Something is clearly wrong with their heads.

----------


## StayThick

> This isnt about 'banging some chicks', theres no reason you can't do that without hair. I think it is essential to catch hairloss early, and you've done that, but I agree with some of the above points, if you are going bald its not noticeable by any trained eyes.


 Dude, I was joking on the banging chicks part...I was trying to deliver a point with a hint of sarcasm. I agree, catching baldness early is absolutely crucial, but have you looked closely at yeayea's pics? If you see any sign of balding then I think you need to take a step back and reevaluate your own head. He is clearly not balding, period.

I'm not going to get into the whole "you can bang chicks with a chrome dome blah blah," because yes you can, but that's not my point. What boggles my mind is people on this forum with more hair then Justin Bieber or John Stamos inserting pictures on this site and pointing to their hairline saying "what topical can I use? I think I'm losing my hair." Frustrates me, but hey that's just me. I'm a guy with serious hairloss looking for answers, while dudes with manes throw pictures on my monitor reminding me how bad I REALLY HAVE IT.

----------


## Jcm800

thechamp is another poster with a mop that you'd think is a nw6 when reading his posts.

----------


## the_dude78

> Bro your hairline is kinda like mine. You can style your hair a bit better to cover the temples. 
> 
> MSM made my hair shinny has hell, anyone had the same effects? Also, I've been shedding on the top and back of my hairs for about 3 months when I started using MSM and does areas weren't effected before.
> 
> I'm using,
> 
> Rogaine foam- twice a day
> 
> MSM- everyday
> ...


 I wonder what your hairline looks like, because I really can't  believe a doctor would prescribe proscar to someone in your situation. Or maybe you don't need a prescription in your country?

----------


## the_dude78

> thechamp is another poster with a mop that you'd think is a nw6 when reading his posts.


 yup.. and Highlander is a NW-almost-one-and-half. Why even worry. This place is full of crazy people

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yup.. and Highlander is a NW-almost-one-and-half. Why even worry. This place is full of crazy people


 Haven't you guys ever thought that maybe we want to save our hair?

----------


## bigentries

> Haven't you guys ever thought that maybe we want to save our hair?


 That is one thing

The other is acting like Highlander and claim you are disfigured by a slight recession, when multiple times it has been established that normal people don't start to consider you "bald" unless you lose the crown or move towards NW3

Seriously dude, I NEVER had a hairline as low as yours, even as a kid, an hair was the last of my insecurities, in fact I kept it short because it was impossible to style

Guys with slight recessions should watch out, but keep things in perspective, do whatever you want, because no one considers you bald at this moment

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> That is one thing
> 
> The other is acting like Highlander and claim you are disfigured by a slight recession, when multiple times it has been established that normal people don't start to consider you "bald" unless you lose the crown or move towards NW3
> 
> Seriously dude, I NEVER had a hairline as low as yours, even as a kid, an hair was the last of my insecurities, in fact I kept it short because it was impossible to style
> 
> Guys with slight recessions should watch out, but keep things in perspective, do whatever you want, because no one considers you bald at this moment


 
I am not highlander, nor is dex. And who's to say that we won't progress to NW3?

----------


## the_dude78

> Haven't you guys ever thought that maybe we want to save our hair?


 Absolutely. But it just seems like you're obsessing over nothing.

----------


## bigentries

> I am not highlander, nor is dex. And who's to say that we won't progress to NW3?


 No one, that's why you should keep an eye, but continue to live your life, you are not balding right now

Seriously dude, the fact that you claim to "hate the sharp V" is ridiculous, you barely have any recession. 
It is called a window's peak, big deal, I had when I was a kid, with a bigger forehead and like you, no density issues, in fact, I couldn't style my hair because I had too much density and curly hair

I styled it completely pulled back, with a fringe, long hair, buzzed hair and I don't remember a single kid bullying me because of my hairline. I don't see how it can limit your styling options

You are like an slight myope complaining amongst blind people

----------


## the_dude78

> I am not highlander, nor is dex. And who's to say that we won't progress to NW3?


 You guys need to get out more. Play some video games or do some drugs. Anything but this place.

----------


## BaldinLikeBaldwin

hi yeahyeahyeah you have very good hair

what do you apply for the hairline?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> hi yeahyeahyeah you have very good hair
> 
> what do you apply for the hairline?


 Nothing

10 char

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

My hairline in 2010:




My hairline now:



I've receeded a bit.

----------


## Jcm800

A bit? what, one hair?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> A bit? what, one hair?


 Added a new photo, check again.

V is sharper.

----------


## Jcm800

Sorry, dont really see it myself. How old are you by the way?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Sorry, dont really see it myself. How old are you by the way?


 27

Look at the corners.

----------


## clandestine

> You are like an slight myope complaining amongst blind people


 This analogy is wonderful, and entirely accurate.

----------


## Irishamerica

> 27
> 
> Look at the corners.


 I agree with yeah yeah . ..I am probabily in the same postion as him (In terms of the v shape hairline and the very slight thinning at the crown . ...You cant blame him for being on this as ,,,,you all know the best way to stop hairloss is prevention so you cant fault him for engaging on this site just because he hasnt lost all his hair yet

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I agree with yeah yeah . ..I am probabily in the same postion as him (In terms of the v shape hairline and the very slight thinning at the crown . ...You cant blame him for being on this as ,,,,you all know the best way to stop hairloss is prevention so you cant fault him for engaging on this site just because he hasnt lost all his hair yet


 TBH we only need to hold out for 3 years anyway.

I think we will.

----------


## Irishamerica

> TBH we only need to hold out for 3 years anyway.
> 
> I think we will.


 I reckon we might just be able to make it to 3 years ...do you think anything new out then will be able to grow new hair or just help prevent hairloss??

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I reckon we might just be able to make it to 3 years ...do you think anything new out then will be able to grow new hair or just help prevent hairloss??


 Well if my hair is anything to go by, it's been stable without meds since 2010. 

Maybe this may be the case for you.

Aderans is your big hope.

----------


## Irishamerica

> Well if my hair is anything to go by, it's been stable without meds since 2010. 
> 
> Maybe this may be the case for you.
> 
> Aderans is your big hope.


 are you on anything else outside the msm vitc combo ??i just droped reganpure 2 weeks ago so i can give this the proper run

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> are you on anything else outside the msm vitc combo ??i just droped reganpure 2 weeks ago so i can give this the proper run


 I am not on anything else.

----------


## JJJJrS

I guess more people on here have body dysmorphic disorder than I thought.  :Big Grin: 

Why agonize over future hair loss, which may or may not happen, when you have a great head of hair? There really isn't a sure-fire way to prevent future hair loss, other than castration maybe  :Wink: , so why not enjoy life and worry about this when you actually have a problem? Right now, nobody would look at your hair and consider you as balding.

----------


## Irishamerica

> I guess more people on here have body dysmorphic disorder than I thought. 
> 
> Why agonize over future hair loss, which may or may not happen, when you have a great head of hair? There really isn't a sure-fire way to prevent future hair loss, other than castration maybe , so why not enjoy life and worry about this when you actually have a problem? Right now, nobody would look at your hair and consider you as balding.


 yeh but if he can see himself (ie when his hair is wet ) that his hair is slowly thinning or receding than there is no reason he shouldn be a bit worried ..you can do alot more to delay hairloss in comparssion to regrowing hair

----------


## Cob984

Stay thick and ammin, updates on the prp guys? getting desperate here

----------


## dex89

> You guys need to get out more. Play some video games or do some drugs. Anything but this place.


 I do play video games, tons of videos games and I also bang chicks, shit I bang one last night.  

My temples have been receding slowly since the age of 20. My cousins from my mom side of the family are already NW3-4. They were a perfect NW 1 at age 22 but when they hit 23^ they started to recede heavily. I'm trying to prevent that from happening, I've been taking FIN and other hair loss medications and so far so good. Trust me when I tell you that I was loosing a lot of hair like most of you guys but thankfully it alter for the moment.

----------


## StayThick

> Stay thick and ammin, updates on the prp guys? getting desperate here


 Cob, apologize for the delayed response. I didn't want to thread hijack here, but I did receive the PRP treatment last Friday. I would not advise you to make a trip to the US to receive this treatment because its too soon to see it's effectiveness, specifically if you are waiting for my conclusion.

So far I have not seen any benefits, but it's only been a week. Way to early, especially when Dr. Greco explained that a cosmetic result should take place after 4 months. I'd hold tight a few more months dude. Would hate for you to shell all this cash to fly and get this treatment with little to no results.

I'll post an update after 1 month and so forth. Hope this helps

----------


## Space

> 27
> 
> Look at the corners.


 Jesus.

27 years old and your hair might as well belong to a 15 year old. Get over yourself.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Gutted, so you say u are slowly improving but you think you will absolutely never regrow ur temples? So u see no signs of anything at all on your temples? No new even minor growth?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Jesus.
> 
> 27 years old and your hair might as well belong to a 15 year old. Get over yourself.


 Why the hatred?
When I clearly have a M shaped hairline.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> Why the hatred?
> When I clearly have a M shaped hairline.


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder

Check the link.

And I am *honestly* not trying to wind you up, but I would possibly even look into getting help. 100% serious.

Body Dysmorphic Disorder is a serious thing, and can be a precursor to even more serious mental health issues down the road. Either this is a joke to you, or you are genuinely suffering from Body Dysmorphia.

Same goes to Dex. Infact Dex, and I'm not trying to be cruel mate, I would never even want hair as thick as yours, *or* a forehead so small. And that's not a joke. You're like the polar opposite of a bald guy. A Norwood -3. I would look at growing it out a bit, getting a haircut to thin it out, and enable more styling options *ASAP*.


On topic... itch is still down, no visible results worth posting in pics yet, but the comfort of my scalp is worth every penny of this regime at the moment. The itch is nearly gone completely, and my hair/nails are still growing fast.

Fingers crossed for the TRX to provide some regrowth in the next few months or so.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder
> 
> Check the link.
> 
> And I am *honestly* not trying to wind you up, but I would possibly even look into getting help. 100&#37; serious.
> 
> Body Dysmorphic Disorder is a serious thing, and can be a precursor to even more serious mental health issues down the road. Either this is a joke to you, or you are genuinely suffering from Body Dysmorphia.
> 
> Same goes to Dex. Infact Dex, and I'm not trying to be cruel mate, I would never even want hair as thick as yours, *or* a forehead so small. And that's not a joke. You're like the polar opposite of a bald guy. A Norwood -3. I would look at growing it out a bit, getting a haircut to thin it out, and enable more styling options *ASAP*.
> ...


 Again, my hairline is a M shape.

It used to be straight as a bullet -------------

And I could have got a HT from H and W, or ferundi.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> Again, my hairline is a M shape.
> 
> It used to be straight as a bullet -------------


 I used to weigh about 80 pounds and now I'm 170. 
We grow up, what's your point?

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> I used to weigh about 80 pounds and now I'm 170. 
> We grow up, what's your point?


 P.S You BARELY have an M-shaped hairline. BARELY.

I would rather your shape hairline (like I used to have even when young) than some stupid looking straight one like ****ing Kanye West or someone.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I used to weigh about 80 pounds and now I'm 170. 
> We grow up, what's your point?


 not everyone develops a M shape hairline.

Early stages of hairloss.

Take a look at Jude Law.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> not everyone develops a M shape hairline.
> 
> Early stages of hairloss.
> 
> Take a look at Jude Law.


 But plenty of people DO develop a slight M. Which I repeat, you BARELY have.

Did you check the link out? I wasn't joking about that, I'm worried for your health.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> But plenty of people DO develop a slight M. Which I repeat, you BARELY have.


 And keep it?

Give me examples.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> And keep it?
> 
> Give me examples.


 Josh Duhamel, dude from Transformers. He's 40.

I am not continuing this conversation, you're not listening to me.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Josh Duhamel, dude from Transformers. He's 40.
> 
> I am not continuing this conversation, you're not listening to me.


 He's always had that hairline.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> He's always had that hairline.


 No he hasn't.

How about DiCaprio? http://www.imdb.com/media/rm487490304/nm0000138

Has he always had that hairline? Ummm NO.

----------


## bigentries

Dude, I agree you should start to consider that you have an issue with BDD

It's great to keep mpb controlled in the earlier stages, but you crossed the line after considering a hair transplant for such minuscule recession

How the **** did you found out you developed an slight widows peak? I'm serious, it took me years and comments from other people to realize I was balding

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> No he hasn't.
> 
> How about DiCaprio? http://www.imdb.com/media/rm487490304/nm0000138
> 
> Has he always had that hairline? Ummm NO.


 Firstly, he is about 15 years older.

And secondly, my V sharper.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> How the **** did you found out you developed an slight widows peak? I'm serious, it took me years and comments from other people to realize I was balding


 Because I couldn't style it upwards. 

Plus friends did point it out. :Smile:

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> Firstly, he is about 15 years older.
> 
> And secondly, my V sharper.


 You're a luncatic. I'm out.

Will keep you guys who actually have hair loss updated, with how the regime is going on, in about another month. 

Peace.

----------


## dex89

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder
> 
> 
> Same goes to Dex. Infact Dex, and I'm not trying to be cruel mate, I would never even want hair as thick as yours, *or* a forehead so small. And that's not a joke. You're like the polar opposite of a bald guy. A Norwood -3. I would look at growing it out a bit, getting a haircut to thin it out, and enable more styling options *ASAP*.


 Thank you, that's how good I am at hiding my NW2. #illusionist

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> Thank you, that's how good I am at hiding my NW2. #illusionist


 #absolutenutjob

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> #absolutenutjob


 Here are my temples:





Its clear I have recession

----------


## ammin

Acell is a f**cking Miracle

Peace

----------


## Benzzro

> Acell is a f**cking Miracle
> 
> Peace


 Can someone ban this retard? Jesus.

About 3-4 months in. No other treatments, just this combo and started taking Vit D pills. Itch still there, crown has definitely gotten worse. Was on .25 fin prior to this for 2 months, so doubt that had anything to do with it. My hair was never shedding anyway, just thinning, and continues to thin

----------


## gutted

> Can someone ban this retard? Jesus.
> 
> About 3-4 months in. No other treatments, just this combo and started taking Vit D pills. Itch still there, crown has definitely gotten worse. Was on .25 fin prior to this for 2 months, so doubt that had anything to do with it. My hair was never shedding anyway, just thinning, and continues to thin


 you need to watch the vit d.

vit d is thought to boost testosterone, if youve only recently dropped fin then boosting testosterone with the current state of your androgen receptors is not very wise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21154195

dropping the .25 of fin has *everything* to do with your thinning.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted, so you say u are slowly improving but you think you will absolutely never regrow ur temples? So u see no signs of anything at all on your temples? No new even minor growth?


 i doubt it.

the only thing i can feel is the thin vellus hairs in the temples gettting slightley longer but stay thin and refuse to grow any longer.

----------


## gutted

> Gutted have you got as much hair as these guys as well?!


 lol No i have diffuse hair loss although pretty much easily covered if styled a certain way.

----------


## gutted

> Here are my temples:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its clear I have recession


 i think this picture highlights your recession more, and your right to try and prevent your crown from dissappearing too, but i dont think you need to be here every day, style it a certain way to hide the recession. stick with the msm, im confident it wont progress any further, although only time will tell.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> i think this picture highlights your recession more, and your right to try and prevent your crown from dissappearing too, but i dont think you need to be here every day, style it a certain way to hide the recession. stick with the msm, im confident it wont progress any further, although only time will tell.


 Im only taking 3k msm and 3k vit c btw

----------


## gutted

> Im only taking 3k msm and 3k vit c btw


 it should be ok. are you getting/noticing the faster nail/hair growth at this dose?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> it should be ok. are you getting/noticing the faster nail/hair growth at this dose?


 Definitely.

Is that a good sign?

----------


## gutted

> Definitely.
> 
> Is that a good sign?


 yes stick with it.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> yes stick with it.


 What does it mean?

And how do I know I am maintaining, are you maintaining?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Maybe the mature hairline does exist. Temples.

Jordan knight:

----------


## gutted

> What does it mean?
> 
> And how do I know I am maintaining, are you maintaining?


 
im not sure myself what it means with certainty. 
I wonder if people who use minox experience this faster hair growth phenomenon, i know dht suppressors have this effect in the first few weeks which drops off though. 

yes based on my visual judgement it looks like im maintaining.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> im not sure myself what it means with certainty. 
> I wonder if people who use minox experience this *faster hair growth* phenomenon, i know dht suppressors have this effect in the first few weeks which drops off though. 
> 
> yes based on my visual judgement it looks like im maintaining.


 Doesnt this happen to everyone who uses msm?

----------


## gutted

> Doesnt this happen to everyone who uses msm?


 yeh.

10char

----------


## StayThick

> Acell is a f**cking Miracle
> 
> Peace


 Ammin you're clearly trolling at this point. I got the PRP treatment done a week ago and ACELL was not part of the procedure as Dr. Greco (pioneer of PRP for hairloss) stated its absolutely useless for hair.

You're constant rambling about this procedure actually only reassures me that this will do nothing for me after spending the money. You're blatant advertising for this procedure is obvious and I solely regret getting it done because I truly believe you're a joke.

----------


## Cob984

> Can someone ban this retard? Jesus.
> 
> About 3-4 months in. No other treatments, just this combo and started taking Vit D pills. Itch still there, crown has definitely gotten worse. Was on .25 fin prior to this for 2 months, so doubt that had anything to do with it. My hair was never shedding anyway, just thinning, and continues to thin


 why did you drop the fin? and dont listen to gutted's stupidity, if anything the fin would have helped

----------


## Cob984

> Ammin you're clearly trolling at this point. I got the PRP treatment done a week ago and ACELL was not part of the procedure as Dr. Greco (pioneer of PRP for hairloss) stated its absolutely useless for hair.
> 
> You're constant rambling about this procedure actually only reassures me that this will do nothing for me after spending the money. You're blatant advertising for this procedure is obvious and I solely regret getting it done because I truly believe you're a joke.


 i was speaking to drnigam of the other thread, he also said acell + prp should be more effective than just prp but its just unproven at this point,

you not seeing anything positive staythick? its only been a week though right? i might do the only prp soon myself as theres no acell offered here

----------


## ammin

I dont give a crap what anyone believes or doesn't. I dont care if Hitzig's practice files for Bankruptcy tomorrow. I dont care if you have the a cell- pro administered to your scalp in baltimore or bombay. I am seeking remarkable improvement.  I was on TRX 2 before that still taking TRX 2 . Replaced Revivogen with Minoxidil yesterday as I was told anti inflammatories could inhibit acell prps Hair thickening effects.

Now ban me and see if I care. Infact ,There are days when I wish I had not discovered this forum. I wouldnt have had my daily life affected by things like "shedding" and "itching". Ridiculous!

Gutted once remarked " I am very observationally aware when it comes to my hair loss" I dont know if thats such a good thing.

I also dont know why I am letting myself get drawn into this...I need to focus on my career. This is BS

----------


## Cob984

mate ammin dont listen to the criticism, need your advice man,
do you think its the acell that made the difference for you or prp alone is ok?

----------


## Jcm800

> mate ammin dont listen to the criticism, need your advice man,
> do you think its the acell that made the difference for you or prp alone is ok?


 Its the trx2 that did it :-)

----------


## Cob984

lol trx2 is a joke, im almost considering not ordering anymore

----------


## Jcm800

Yeah me too, might possibly help others but hasn't helped me in the slightest.

----------


## StuckInARut

I can't help but LOL at the drama that unfolded in this thread. It's pretty entertaining stuff, haha!

----------


## Jcm800

Yeah agreed,not so funny paying Whitfield thru the nose and waiting for my golden locks to return tho. Ah well we live and learn ;-)

----------


## StayThick

> i was speaking to drnigam of the other thread, he also said acell + prp should be more effective than just prp but its just unproven at this point,
> 
> you not seeing anything positive staythick? its only been a week though right? i might do the only prp soon myself as theres no acell offered here


 Nothing yet Cob, but way too soon to judge. I'm hoping to get lucky and see some results a month in.. Will see. As usual that's just hopeful thinking.

Regarding ACELL, Dr. Greco stated the growth factors are the key and ACELL would only drive up the cost of the procedure where there is no evidence it makes a difference compared to prp alone. Hence why he doesn't incorporate it in his practice. I just got the PRP with protein matrix. Lets see what unfolds...

----------


## StayThick

Also, can anybody discuss what they experienced with TRX2 after 8 months of usage? I have been on it for 2 months and see absolutely nothing happening. This product is not cheap and I am thinking of eliminating it from my regimen after another month. It just seems like snake oil.

Anybody notice a difference taking MSM and VitC alone WITHOUT Trx2?

----------


## Jcm800

> Also, can anybody discuss what they experienced with TRX2 after 8 months of usage? I have been on it for 2 months and see absolutely nothing happening. This product is not cheap and I am thinking of eliminating it from my regimen after another month. It just seems like snake oil.
> 
> Anybody notice a difference taking MSM and VitC alone WITHOUT Trx2?


 I took it for nine months before, it did nothing for me then. Then foolishly I took it again, so far for about ten months based on people like gutted and againstthis seemingly getting results.

But I'm a desperado, I would not recommend it to anyone now, I'm only carrying on with it because my next batch is a freebie, after that I'm out.

----------


## Jcm800

Sorry, I misread your Q, anyway that's my experience of trx2 when taken alone.

----------


## Cob984

> Also, can anybody discuss what they experienced with TRX2 after 8 months of usage? I have been on it for 2 months and see absolutely nothing happening. This product is not cheap and I am thinking of eliminating it from my regimen after another month. It just seems like snake oil.
> 
> Anybody notice a difference taking MSM and VitC alone WITHOUT Trx2?


 all 3, msm, c and trx2 utter bs, dont waste your time,
this thread is rubbish

----------


## b0urna

> all 3, msm, c and trx2 utter bs, dont waste your time,
> this thread is rubbish


 Cob your constant flaming is really p1ss1ng me off. why are you even here? you've made countless offensive comments to gutted and mockings to this thread, yet still keep coming back daily. Alongside that you slate his advice though you haven't tried heeding it. Pathetic.
Anyway, haters gonna hate, moving on..while I'm still doing well on msm/vitc alone, the recent posts aren't enticing me to try trx2. I found THIS post on immortalhair forums, some guy has made a post about making a more potent form of trx2 by obtaining the ingredients separately, thought I'd see what you guys thought.

----------


## b0urna

Doublepost

----------


## Cob984

im contemplating fin guys, even though 5ar inhibitors dont sit well with me both cognitive and fat gain wise, im considering 0.25 mg / 2x a week to start with,

cant believe im getting so desperate now, sucks, i dont even know if such a dose is worth taking but my body just will not be able to tolerate more, i hate my androgen sensitivity

----------


## Jcm800

Hmm am desperate myself. But can't convince myself taking fin is a wise move. My hair is the worst it's ever been frankly, but I fear rolling the dice with fin.

----------


## StayThick

> im contemplating fin guys, even though 5ar inhibitors dont sit well with me both cognitive and fat gain wise, im considering 0.25 mg / 2x a week to start with,
> 
> cant believe im getting so desperate now, sucks, i dont even know if such a dose is worth taking but my body just will not be able to tolerate more, i hate my androgen sensitivity


 I'm just as desperate as you, but I will NEVER touch FIN again. I'm almost 100&#37; post fin now 10 months off the drug. How I feel now and how I was during fin is unbelieveable. It's almost like you forget how you were prior to the drug when taking it.

Either way, I don't think that's a wise move. I also experienced weight gain, side belly fat, stuttering problems, low libido, gyno (puffy nips). List goes on and on. It was the biggest regret of my life, but I thought catching my thinning early would be best and Propecia was recommended by my derm. Unfortunately, I never thought I would say this because I'm a fighter with anything in life, but if it resorts to going bald or taking fin... Bald will just have to be my fate. That's how destructive I think that drug is. Don't do it. Smallest dose will still create sides. 100%

----------


## Cob984

yea i can tolerate others but the cognitive sides really kill it for me,
i tried two doses this week, could defn sense the brain fog affect,

whats your regimen staythick? whats the damn alternative, i might experiment with prp myself too and get back on saw palmetto and maybe topical fin spray

----------


## StayThick

> yea i can tolerate others but the cognitive sides really kill it for me,
> i tried two doses this week, could defn sense the brain fog affect,
> 
> whats your regimen staythick? whats the damn alternative, i might experiment with prp myself too and get back on saw palmetto and maybe topical fin spray


 I currently do:

Rogaine Foam 2x daily
Neogenic 1x daily
6 grams MSM daily
4 grams VitC daily
Trx2 3 capsules daily 
3 TocoCaps daily (just started today)
Recently had PRP done (results pending)
Regenepure Dr 2x weekly 
Niz 1x a week

That's it dude. I'm not taking any DHT inhibitors for obvious reasons. I'm hoping to see some slight benefit with the TocoCaps I just received, but will see. More importantly, I hope I can gain some results from the PRP treatment within a few months. If neither above works...I'll be at a lost of solutions.

----------


## Jcm800

> I'm just as desperate as you, but I will NEVER touch FIN again. I'm almost 100% post fin now 10 months off the drug. How I feel now and how I was during fin is unbelieveable. It's almost like you forget how you were prior to the drug when taking it.
> 
> Either way, I don't think that's a wise move. I also experienced weight gain, side belly fat, stuttering problems, low libido, gyno (puffy nips). List goes on and on. It was the biggest regret of my life, but I thought catching my thinning early would be best and Propecia was recommended by my derm. Unfortunately, I never thought I would say this because I'm a fighter with anything in life, but if it resorts to going bald or taking fin... Bald will just have to be my fate. That's how destructive I think that drug is. Don't do it. Smallest dose will still create sides. 100%


 Beat's me how that drug is still doshed out to people easily. Appreciate your views on it, and hope you make a full recovery from using it. It seem's such a risk to even try it for six months - a lot of the danger seem's to come from quitting the damn drug - PFS etc. What a bastard that is.

----------


## Cob984

dammit i cant even work with minoxidil, i get horrible palpitations and face bloating from it
neogenic work at all?

this will be me i think for the next few weeks:-
saw palmetto extract 125mg 4xweek
trx2 - 3/day
msm - 5g, vitc c - 2g
keratene 5ar shampoo - 3/week
divine herbal oil - 3/week

hope to add prp soon

----------


## Benzzro

> why did you drop the fin? and dont listen to gutted's stupidity, if anything the fin would have helped


 
Slight sides, like 90&#37; erections. which isn't much but not worth it for me and was scared it could get worse. I sorta accepted hair loss also which is why I'm on this treatment lol. If there's anything natural to stop HL then I might as well try

----------


## Cob984

the brain fog from fin wasnt nice at all so i am going for keratene alphactive retard capsules:
for a forum where this is being discussed look here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...50361&page=112


I have used the shampoo and had a very positive experience, so i am going to start with half a capsule 2x a week to start with,
I think the one unfortunate fact of hairloss is you can beat about the bush all you want but to truly have mpb under control dht treatment is an absolute must

----------


## clandestine

Keratene is good; I think I might start up on their shampoo again once a week. It's just tedious having to leave the serum in for half an hour, as I live in a house with my mates, and looks ridiculous.

----------


## Cob984

mate you gotta use the shampoo atleast 3x week, its quite mild

----------


## clandestine

> mate you gotta use the shampoo atleast 3x week, its quite mild


 Sorry, I wasn't specific. I was talking about the serum. I had bought both the shampoo, and the Ultra Serum, which you leave in for 30min. 

You mention you've had success with just the shampoo?

----------


## Jcm800

AgainstThis - whats the latest?

----------


## Cob984

> Sorry, I wasn't specific. I was talking about the serum. I had bought both the shampoo, and the Ultra Serum, which you leave in for 30min. 
> 
> You mention you've had success with just the shampoo?


 not success, but it makes my hair feel good, i used the serum too but my scalp is too sensitive and i got sides aka similar cognitive ones to fin

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Thinking of switching to this tbh:

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2133888

Saves me money and has biotin etc.

----------


## Jcm800

> Thinking of switching to this tbh:
> 
> http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2133888
> 
> Saves me money and has biotin etc.


 Only ships to US?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Only ships to US?


 Yeah - forget it.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Random question for all long term users of Trx2: Has anyone experienced any heart related side effects such as palpatations etc?

I was experiencing chest sensations and palpatations last night, BUT there most definitely other things that could be causing this in my life . JUST wondering if anyone else has experienced this as trx2 claims to work on pottasium channels and has 191mg of potassium chloride in it.

Anyone?

----------


## Jcm800

No sizzling, nothing out of the ordinary happening. 

Anyone got any updates, good or bad? Nothing but doom my way still..

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> No sizzling, nothing out of the ordinary happening. 
> 
> Anyone got any updates, good or bad? Nothing but doom my way still..


 Fisihed 2 months supply.

Hmm, hair looks the same.

----------


## Cob984

Nothing good at all on this regimen, im done with this combo, im still going to use it anyway cause i have it

i am using the keratene shampoo + serum, good product,
also started 125mg sp extract 4 times a week, also using divine herbal hair oil,
JCM get on this stuff asap, itll be tolerable and abandon relying on this routine for your own good

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Nothing good at all on this regimen, im done with this combo, im still going to use it anyway cause i have it
> 
> i am using the keratene shampoo + serum, good product,
> also started 125mg sp extract 4 times a week, also using divine herbal hair oil,
> JCM get on this stuff asap, itll be tolerable and abandon relying on this routine for your own good


 IS that working?

----------


## Jcm800

5 months religiously on this combo, and about 10 months trx2 - no benefit, i like gutted, hes a clever guy, but theres no suggestion that this is working for me - other than cutting my nails often (great if i was a woman)

----------


## Cob984

> IS that working?


 My hair quality has improved in the short time i have started using this, that is already evident,
If it works, that remains to be seen but I dont believe i have lost ground in the last month or so which is a bit of a relief

----------


## Jcm800

> My hair quality has improved in the short time i have started using this, that is already evident,
> If it works, that remains to be seen but I dont believe i have lost ground in the last month or so which is a bit of a relief


 It must work - Cob hasnt been on here ranting and raving for a couple of weeks haha  :Big Grin:

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> It must work - Cob hasnt been on here ranting and raving for a couple of weeks haha


 Not convinced, will wait 6 months.

Also COB post before - after pics.

Half the reason why guys on here end up feeling hard done, is because they end up trying unproven products which dont even have any before-afters. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

BTW with gutteds combo, there has definently been no regrowth, i know that for sure.

----------


## Jcm800

I'll roll another month, taking me to six, by then id hope to really start seeing something, but how longs a piece of string? At six people will say roll onto 12 months, by then i'll be a year behind, ah fck its a shitty hand we've all been dealt in the genetics lottery..

----------


## Cob984

Dude you have slow as hell mpb if at all you have any so you wait however long you want lol, 

I am not posting any pics cause its too early but my hair doesnt look as lifeless as it did a couple of months back, I think its fair enough to wait in your case, i am just going hyperactive here cause I have aggressive mpb and will attempt everything under the sun thats worth it, The reason I believe the keratene works is I used to feel mild brain fog on using the topicals. a much milder version of what i felt when i experimented with fin for a week, therefore I believe it is a strong and useful topical.

JCM dont wait mate, i dont care what you use but start using something else, some sort of dht blocking, you need it, see whichever suits you best, 

I know I am still far behind in the mpb war because I believe is Fin is the only real prevention but im doing the best i can with my androgen sensitive body, really sucks to have shit hair genetics and then a body that rejects the best available medication

Btw, i think its a good idea to experiment with the Keratene pills as well, they are strong as hell and almost as strong as fin, i wasnt completely at ease on them so i am delaying their use

----------


## Jcm800

Im contempalting saw complex, but whats the point,it only works for a short time, if at all? Interested in those Keratene capsules tho, am watching that thread closely.

----------


## MrBlonde

> No sizzling, nothing out of the ordinary happening. 
> 
> Anyone got any updates, good or bad? Nothing but doom my way still..


 I posted mine a couple of weeks ago as did another member and we are starting to see slightly positive signs.

Don't listen to Cob anyone.  He never even tried this without a DHT blocker and is flaming because his hair is getting worse and taking it out on Gutted and this thread.  He is even taking SP again which he knows and even states doesn't work for him in the long term.  How much sense does that make?  None.


I am not saying this program works or is a success yet as its still too early to tell, it will be twelve months before we know but I believe I am seeing a reduction in shed right now which is correct with Gutted's timeline.  I will keep you posted on any regrowth.

----------


## Cob984

LOOOOL gutteds timeline, delusional people here,
Lets look over your slightly positive signs ? Less shedding after months of your hair taking a pounding? realize this is because your hair loss is only so quick and will only shed so much? Keep hoping to recover using msm bro, your hair is going down

You think I wouldnt be delighted if this combo worked? i would, I gave it full 3 months and only used topical dht blockers occasionally and guess what, my hair was in freefall,

Now that I have changed my regimen, my hair loss has stabilized, my hair looks in better shape visually, i have not won the mpb battle, im still losing but losing slower than this rubbish regimen...So hang on to stupid hope my friend, ill just wait for 3-6 months when you come back here and whine that this combo has done nothing or maybe you will say well if i hadnt taken it i would have had a tennis size bald patch instead of a nickel sized one LOOOL

----------


## Space

> You think I wouldnt be delighted if this combo worked? i would, I gave it full 3 months and only used topical dht blockers occasionally and guess what, my hair was in freefall,


 You started this combo straight after dropping SP, that's the reason your hair was in freefall, to attribute it this combo is just plain dishonest. 

It's pretty common (from what I've read) that people who use SP see improvement in a couple of months and then suddenly it losses its effect and you loose what you've gained. 

This is probably the case for you as well.

----------


## Cob984

I had actually minimized my sp to dose to 3-4 / week before i got on this combo, i doubt that was what was holding my hair together,

Look guys if its working for you then great but in a bunch of you guys cases who claim this combo is starting to show results its like oh i shed like a rabbit for 3 months, now atleast im not shedding as much so this combo is working ? really man? if you dont do anything you will have the same damn result, shedding is in cycles,
This is not results my friends, recently i was on oral dht blockers (propecia and keratene) for 10 days and in that short frame the difference to my androgen sensitive hair was awesome but the sides sucked just as much, Now that is a real treatment, Just because it doesnt suit me doesnt mean i go around saying well fin is not worth it anyway

Get real guys, the people who will actually have success on this, and by success i mean maintaining are those who dont have mpb or those that have outrageously slow mpb like yeah yeah yeah, do what you want guys its  your hair,

But this is my word of advice to those guys with diagnosed and aggressive mpb, dont dedicate months to this combo, its not worth it in the least

----------


## new bubble

> I posted mine a couple of weeks ago as did another member and we are starting to see slightly positive signs.
> 
> Don't listen to Cob anyone.  He never even tried this without a DHT blocker and is flaming because his hair is getting worse and taking it out on Gutted and this thread.  He is even taking SP again which he knows and even states doesn't work for him in the long term.  How much sense does that make?  None.
> 
> 
> I am not saying this program works or is a success yet as its still too early to tell, it will be twelve months before we know but I believe I am seeing a reduction in shed right now which is correct with Gutted's timeline.  I will keep you posted on any regrowth.


 I've posted previousley about this combo of ONLY vitc/msm worked for me as far as less oily scalp, less itch, better scalp condition and quality of hair AND  finally big reduction of hair falling out. I don't expect regrowth of lost hair as I don't take TRX2 and i haven't had any, but for me this has worked great in the above mentioned and am pleased. So from at least i liked to thank Gutted, and i still continue to use it 5 months on

----------


## b0urna

> I had actually minimized my sp to dose to 3-4 / week before i got on this combo, i doubt that was what was holding my hair together,
> 
> Look guys if its working for you then great but in a bunch of you guys cases who claim this combo is starting to show results its like oh i shed like a rabbit for 3 months, now atleast im not shedding as much so this combo is working ? really man? if you dont do anything you will have the same damn result, shedding is in cycles,
> This is not results my friends, recently i was on oral dht blockers (propecia and keratene) for 10 days and in that short frame the difference to my androgen sensitive hair was awesome but the sides sucked just as much, Now that is a real treatment, Just because it doesnt suit me doesnt mean i go around saying well fin is not worth it anyway
> 
> Get real guys, the people who will actually have success on this, and by success i mean maintaining are those who dont have mpb or those that have outrageously slow mpb like yeah yeah yeah, do what you want guys its  your hair,
> 
> But this is my word of advice to those guys with diagnosed and aggressive mpb, dont dedicate months to this combo, its not worth it in the least


 I reaaaaallly really hate this kid. Cob you've been frantically switching between SP, devine hair oil, fin, keratine (serum, tablets and shampoo), msm, trx2..anything iv missed? ..probably. 

So you think we are delusional because we are giving one product a fair trial when you didn't? Yet you claim results from blocking DHT in 10days! Don't say you did gave this a fair chance because we all know you were taking DHT inhibitors against gutters advice..but yep we all know this because we've been through this whole stupid argument over and over again, yet you still come back to flame. 

Dont you wonder why you get in arguments with everyone on these forums? but obviously your opinion is always right regardless of knowledge or experience. Just do everyone a favour and stop clogging up this thread with your pathetic flaming, everyone's bored of it and it's not constructive. In fact...just leave. 

Oh and cob...don't reply to this, no-one wants to hear you b1tch anymore. 

ahhh..that felt good. Now let's bring this thread back to what it was intended for; not PRP injections, not different products that focus soley on DHT, and not petty arguments. 

As for MSM/vitc results, I too am seeing less shedding and the usual symptoms gutted described, though I'm still not at the shed rate of a normal non-balding bloke, but I'm going to wait a month and a half before I post another update, that will take me to 6months. If things keep going well I will keep with this for 12months.

----------


## StayThick

Bourna: Are you taking TRX2 in conjunction with MSM and Vitc? How much MSM and VitC are you personally taking per day?

I'm going into my 3rd month on this regimen and haven't really noticed much beyond the faster hair growth rate. My corners are still kicking back unfortunately.

I'll stick with this combo for at least 6 months before making my final evaluation.

----------


## b0urna

> Bourna: Are you taking TRX2 in conjunction with MSM and Vitc? How much MSM and VitC are you personally taking per day?
> 
> I'm going into my 3rd month on this regimen and haven't really noticed much beyond the faster hair growth rate. My corners are still kicking back unfortunately.
> 
> I'll stick with this combo for at least 6 months before making my final evaluation.


 I'm not currently taking TRX2, but I plan to order some soon. Either that or making my own higher potency version (see my post from a few days ago). However I'm not back in the UK for another 5weeks so I will have to wait till then. I'm also going to swap out my regular  absorbic acid with liposomal vitamin c. Im tempted to buy some DSMO to mix my MSM into for topical use also but this is just food for thought.
iv been taking around 9grams msm/ 1-2 grams vit c (plus plenty of orange juice), and ensuring I'm getting enough water, especially as I'm currently living in Australia where the temperatures have been in the record breaking 45-50c lately. I plan to lower my msm intake to around 4grams daily soon.

----------


## b0urna

Another reason I started msm is because I had joint pain which would not heal itself naturally, after a month of taking msm my injuries had completely healed themselves

----------


## Cob984

delusion ftw but ok ill leave here

----------


## gutted

i think ive also noticed this highly pigmented hair on the back of my head like another user experienced too. The hair on the back "looks" highly pigmented in color, (it may be due to the thickness differences between the top and back.)

i wonder if there are any users taking this who have grey hair. would be interesting to see if this reverses grey hair to original color!

----------


## Jcm800

Hello gutted! Hmm actually i'm starting to see more grey personally, and still no positive signs other than fast growing nails lol, not bashing btw, just saying  :Wink:

----------


## gutted

> Hello gutted! Hmm actually i'm starting to see more grey personally, and still no positive signs other than fast growing nails lol, not bashing btw, just saying


 lol i know, dont know what to really say mate, probably try somethin else. just NOT fin/dht suppressors.
do you keep track of how much you shed in the shower and daily? i know its difficult but you should generally be aware of how much you shed. 

has it maintained at consistent levels for you, since starting?

----------


## Jcm800

> lol i know, dont know what to really say mate, probably try somethin else. just NOT fin/dht suppressors.
> do you keep track of how much you shed in the shower and daily? i know its difficult but you should generally be aware of how much you shed. 
> 
> has it maintained at consistent levels for you, since starting?


 This is the bizarre thing - i wash my hair every other day, i look down and see maybe 1-2 hairs in the tub, hardly any. Yet hair is looking thinner, hairline area and vertex - its vanishing somewhere!

Finger nails are growing rapido - thats for sure, great if i was a woman! Guess my hair grows faster as well, just aint holding ground.

What else could i try?! Only Fin etc..

----------


## gutted

> This is the bizarre thing - i wash my hair every other day, i look down and see maybe 1-2 hairs in the tub, hardly any. Yet hair is looking thinner, hairline area and vertex - its vanishing somewhere!
> 
> Finger nails are growing rapido - thats for sure, great if i was a woman! Guess my hair grows faster as well, just aint holding ground.


 lol.

might be a good thing to continue for X more months if you have nothing else to use, things may take a turn, although its up to you what you want to do.

decresed/normalised shedding is good! the hairs in those regions are probably returning in a few weeks to months. (this is affected if you used rogaine, your going to have to wait it out for shedded hairs to return AGAIN.)

im not sure if there is anything out there apart from suppressing dht, which i dont reccomend at all.

----------


## Jcm800

..well im approaching six months on this, another six it will be, just hope things turn around for me. Granted Minox is no doubt playing havoc to a degree - but im thinning also in areas not touched by it.

----------


## gutted

> ..well im approaching six months on this, another six it will be, just hope things turn around for me. Granted Minox is no doubt playing havoc to a degree - but im thinning also in areas not touched by it.


 minox can and does spread to areas that minox isnt applied to, it might be the case for you too, theres no way of knowing. just stick with the minox aswell.

judging by your shed levels hopefully, visually, things shuold turn around in the comming months.

----------


## Jcm800

> minox can and does spread to areas that minox isnt applied to, it might be the case for you too, theres no way of knowing. just stick with the minox aswell.
> 
> judging by your shed levels hopefully, visually, things shuold turn around in the comming months.


 Yeah ill just keep plugging away, also with the minox. Hows it looking for you, improving?

----------


## gutted

> Yeah ill just keep plugging away, also with the minox. Hows it looking for you, improving?


 no change with me since my last update. my shed levels remain the same however. I will give another update in a few months.

----------


## Jcm800

Fair enough. On another note, i buy Dr's best Quali-C 500mg capsules, and over time it's adding up, i also have some Sainsburys chewable 500mg C tabs that are cheap as chips, do you think it'd be detrimental to use the Sains C over the pricey Quali-C?

----------


## gutted

> Fair enough. On another note, i buy Dr's best Quali-C 500mg capsules, and over time it's adding up, i also have some Sainsburys chewable 500mg C tabs that are cheap as chips, do you think it'd be detrimental to use the Sains C over the pricey Quali-C?


 nah shouldnt matter.

----------


## Irishamerica

Hey Gutted ,

Been on the combo since Nov 1st and been on it proper since start of Jan (dropped reganpure on your advice ) ..have had huge reduction in itching and oil . I liked the concept that reganpure wud clean te scalp . Would you recomned using a Tgel a couple times a week instead ?

----------


## Space

> i think ive also noticed this highly pigmented hair on the back of my head like another user experienced too. The hair on the back "looks" highly pigmented in color, (it may be due to the thickness differences between the top and back.)
> 
> i wonder if there are any users taking this who have grey hair. would be interesting to see if this reverses grey hair to original color!


 You mean that your hair looks thicker in the neck than on you vertex?

----------


## gutted

> Hey Gutted ,
> 
> Been on the combo since Nov 1st and been on it proper since start of Jan (dropped reganpure on your advice ) ..have had huge reduction in itching and oil . I liked the concept that reganpure wud clean te scalp . Would you recomned using a Tgel a couple times a week instead ?


 yeah use tgel.

regenpure has ingredients in it which CAN and DOES gain systemic introduction. IF this occurs this starts affecting hormone levels which can dbe detriemental.

----------


## gutted

> You mean that your hair looks thicker in the neck than on you vertex?


 yeah back as in "donor region back" i.e neck.

Im not sure what to attibute it to, it could be more thicker hairs in this region or just more pigmented/colored hairs...not quite sure.

----------


## Space

> yeah back as in "donor region back" i.e neck.
> 
> Im not sure what to attibute it to, it could be more thicker hairs in this region or just more pigmented/colored hairs...not quite sure.


 Is it visible to anyone but yourself? 

Sounds like you're thinner on the "top" than in the back, in other words starting to go bald. Which is disheartening to me who is following your regime.

----------


## Jcm800

Disheartening to us all if he is going bald still, perhaps you can clarify what you mean gutted?

----------


## gutted

> Is it visible to anyone but yourself? 
> 
> Sounds like you're thinner on the "top" than in the back, in other words starting to go bald. Which is disheartening to me who is following your regime.


 not really just me.

its the difference in the *darker shade* between the mpb zones and the non mpb zones, which looked odd.

its probably been like that since starting msm, i never looked at the back until recently, and wondered whether msm had anything to do with it.

----------


## Space

> not really just me.
> 
> its the difference in the *darker shade* between the mpb zones and the non mpb zones, which looked odd.
> 
> its probably been like that since starting msm, i never looked at the back until recently, and wondered whether msm had anything to do with it.


 So what? You don't think you're thinning? Just difference in color?

----------


## gutted

> So what? You don't think you're thinning? Just difference in color?


 well yeah no doubt i am experiencing minutarisation, hence why i am taking msm/trx2 in the first place. 

i still have thinning regions, which have improved but it will take a few more months before i can give another update on this.

----------


## b0urna

> well yeah no doubt i am experiencing minutarisation, hence why i am taking msm/trx2 in the first place. 
> 
> i still have thinning regions, which have improved but it will take a few more months before i can give another update on this.


 That's abit worrying, but keep us updated mate. I too will wait another 7weeks or so before my 6month update. Until then I'm going to make a pact to stay off this site, I waste too much time listening to forums and checking my hairs progress. See you mid-march BTT!

----------


## Space

> well yeah no doubt i am experiencing minutarisation, hence why i am taking msm/trx2 in the first place. 
> 
> i still have thinning regions, which have improved but it will take a few more months before i can give another update on this.


 So you're sure you're improving even though you "have started" to notice the shade difference? 

How long have you been on the regime?

----------


## bananana

hi gutted, please read this interesting post http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=141

and let us know what do you think about combining this product with msm.
go or a no-go?

thanks.

----------


## Cob984

> hi gutted, please read this interesting post http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=141
> 
> and let us know what do you think about combining this product with msm.
> go or a no-go?
> 
> thanks.


 no offense dude but are you are a bit brain dead? 
ofcourse no go, if you have read any bit of this thread you would have seen gutted harping about no dht suppression, this product is a natural Fin alternative so there in lies your answer, clear no go if gutted is your messiah

----------


## bananana

> no offense dude but are you are a bit brain dead? 
> ofcourse no go, if you have read any bit of this thread you would have seen gutted harping about no dht suppression, this product is a natural Fin alternative so there in lies your answer, clear no go if gutted is your messiah


 well, you can read in the post that it acts in a very different way than fin. It doesnt cause imbalance in the body, or so they say.
I'm just wondering, and I'm interested in a higher quality answer than calling someone brain dead.

----------


## Cob984

it may or may not affect T and Estrogen absolute levels but it will markedly reduce your dht,
which means your ratio of dht to other hormones like E will be thrown out of whack,

----------


## AgainstThis

Υο, greetings to all my follicularly challenged, long suffering brothers.

I've been on the regime for maybe 5-6 months now I think and I'm cautiously positive. My hair loss has stopped completely (I shed what any normal person would shed) but there's no significant regrowth to speak of. Some wispy hair has appeared in the midst of my hairline and my temples but nothing that would be classed as "Wow dude, your hair is coming back!"

The only thing that bothers me and is that all of this is based on ****ing voodoo and since it's not working universally for everybody, I'm inclined to believe that it's only just my hairloss that was probably always predestined to get to NW3 and then progress slowly as I age.

Still, I'm a vain bastard and I'm not risking getting off the stuff now that my condition seems so stable. Using this regime and Toppik, I can pass off as a NW2 on good days, which is really fantastic, I'm telling you  :Smile:

----------


## sizzlinghairs

AgainstThis, thanks for the update. 

I was under the impression that your hairloss was halted while you were on just trx2 though? Thats what I remember back when you posted in the regular "Trx2?" thread.

You posted this on 9/25/12: 

"It's like you said. TRX2 did not bring back the hair already lost and miniaturized but it's pretty much maintaining everything else. In the past year my hairline has not receded but I prefer to err on the side of caution and be pleasantly surprised by any discrepancies instead of having high hopes and getting all mopey when they don't come true.

For the past year, my hairline's been stable and the loss minimal. The only reason I'm hesitant to scream from the rooftops is that I know that MPB is a progressive condition and once you have it, you're probably headed downhill."

----------


## Jcm800

IMO trx2 is a bullshit product. Againstthis has been on it since day dot. And hasn't had the results promised on their website. I haven't, and neither has anyone else.

Ulanude hasn't either, he's on the payroll.

I'm gonna carry on simply cos I'm on my freebies next, after that I'm out.

----------


## Cob984

> IMO trx2 is a bullshit product. Againstthis has been on it since day dot. And hasn't had the results promised on their website. I haven't, and neither has anyone else.
> 
> Ulanude hasn't either, he's on the payroll.
> 
> I'm gonna carry on simply cos I'm on my freebies next, after that I'm out.


 Couldnt agree more, when does freebie kick in? after 9 months, i am going to be 6 months in shortly, anyway screw freebies i will spend my money on more sensible products, im done with this overpriced junk, Whitfield is a ****ing joke and a scammer, hes probably made his fortune that unethical shit, hope people like this pay their dues one day for ****ing people over

----------


## AgainstThis

Yep, it's true, TRX2 kept me stable, then at some point I must have been dissatisfied, that is why I added the MSM and Vit C to the whole shebang.

Still, I'm about 60% convinced that my hair would be exactly like it is if I wasn't taking anything at all for it.

The terror of 40% of course keeps me hooked on the various little pills.

Sad but true.

----------


## ulanude

Thanks Jcm ))) qualified opinion...as far as i'm aware you just participating in discussions but aren't on yourself...

----------


## Jcm800

> Thanks Jcm ))) qualified opinion...as far as i'm aware you just participating in discussions but aren't on yourself...


 You can tell me the sky is blue and I'd doubt it. Just the way it is.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

jcm/cob as well as other people still losing, I urge you to try my complimentary advice of trying a 1% over the counter hydrocortisone (preferably the medium of scalpicin and not a lotion/cream). Use it on your scalp daily for 4-5 months and report back to tell us if shedding has stopped or positive things are happening.

Hyrdocortisone is a proven PGD2 inhibitor as well as a general anti-inflammatory. Studies across the board have shown it 100% of the time increases the results when used with minox, versus just using minox alone. 
----one hundred percent of the time---- guys.

Only warning is that if you are susceptible to cataracts or glaucoma you shouldnt use it. Other than that I have asked my doctors, derm and opthamologist, if its ok to use long term and they have said yes. 

Honestly, what have you got to lose people? Try it for 4-5 months, everyday, and let me know your results.

----------


## Jcm800

What results are you seeing from this sizzling? Anything noticeable?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Nothing like "holy f*ck my hair sprotin everywhere!" but I am pretty confident it will help really slow ur loss w/o any side effects. I believe thats worth it

----------


## Cob984

appreciate the input sizzling but i refuse to dump random stuff on my head thats not going to fight dht, at least for now,
im doing relatively well right now with the keratene capsules, if i have to come off those for whatever reason ill look elsewhere

----------


## sizzlinghairs

So u r a disbeliever in the new pgd2 study findings?

----------


## Space

I don't think Hydrocortizone is very healthy for long term use, so be careful with that.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

This is true for steroids in general. The drs I spoke to tho said it
Is such a small % (1%), and is the weakest steroid available (hence being OTC) that it is ok for long term use. But I still would use caution with long term use. Thats why I say try daily/every other day for 4-5 months then do maybe 3 x week.

----------


## Jcm800

Anyone got any updates on this regime? I havent got any positive ones so far sadly myself.

----------


## bananana

Hi,

it's almost 6 months for me. Itch is REALLY low (I'd say 1-2/10), no sebum/oil, I'm really pleased. MPB hasn't progressed for sure as far as I can tell. I used to be itchy as hell and have like 1-2 mm thick layer of grease on my scalp - it's all gone! 
(I wish I found about msm 5 years ago)  :Frown: 

Anyways, I'm gonna give a big review on 1 year mark, so far so good. There is one thing clearly showing something good is going on - i used to wake each day thinking about MPB, this and other forums, and now 3-5 days pass and I don't even think about it, because I dont feel the symptoms.

----------


## Benzzro

About 5 months in. Using nothing else other then this regimine. Crown looks worse, possible bald spot coming In  :Frown: . Hair on top is turning very slightly brownish which means my hair is definitely going thinner. Itch comes and goes, sometimes at night I get a crazy itch which won't go away until I scratch, but overall itch has probably gotten maybe 20% better. Didn't expect much from this combo anyway, knew it was going to fail when gutted said it would work for everyone when he's only tested it on himself (lol). Still going to continue it just because of health benifits.

----------


## bananana

> About 5 months in. Using nothing else other then this regimine. Crown looks worse, possible bald spot coming In . Hair on top is turning very slightly brownish which means my hair is definitely going thinner. Itch comes and goes, sometimes at night I get a crazy itch which won't go away until I scratch, but overall itch has probably gotten maybe 20% better. Didn't expect much from this combo anyway, knew it was going to fail when gutted said it would work for everyone when he's only tested it on himself (lol). Still going to continue it just because of health benifits.


 Sorry to hear that bro.
I really don't know what to say, it works on some people, it doesnt on others.
I'm just hoping it will at least buy me some time until either histogen or aderans come out or I decide to go to nigams... We'll see.

----------


## Space

> Sorry to hear that bro.
> I really don't know what to say, it works on some people, it doesnt on others.
> I'm just hoping it will at least buy me some time until either histogen or aderans come out or I decide to go to nigams... We'll see.


 Benzzro was on Finas b4 this combo if I remember correctly, which is relevant to put in the equation.

----------


## Benzzro

> Benzzro was on Finas b4 this combo if I remember correctly, which is relevant to put in the equation.


 For like 2 months lol, .25 a day. Wasn't shedding hairs anyway, hair was only thinning slowly. After stopping nothing changed and still continue to thin slowly, still no shedding. Pretty sure gutted will say any excuse just to make his theory seem plausible. Don't worry I'll still stay on this combo and give an update in a few months.

----------


## clandestine

Stop wasting your time.. If you can't tolerate fin, get on sitosterol based topicals, Keratene, RU or something else proven.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Bennzro, you are on trx2 as well?

----------


## Jcm800

> Bennzro, you are on trx2 as well?


 He prob is, hence he's getting nowhere fast.

----------


## Space

Gutted

This is probably a stupid question, but you don't think there's any harm in combining this regimen with EMU-oil on your scalp right?

----------


## Cob984

I have run out of trx2, been on it 6 months with i believe no decent results still im hesitant to get off,
so one final time - from anyone except ulanude? is this worth it?
its bloody expensive and im reluctant to reorder

----------


## Jcm800

Nearly twelve months for me, highly doubtful I'll reorder any. I don't see anyone other then ulanude highly praising it. It's not encouraging and its bloody expensive.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

I've been on trx2 close to
2 years. Msm/vit c 6-9-12 grams (varies when I remember), since around 9/12. Since being on trx2 I've essentially maintained my hair and thickened somewhat but with same back an forth phases on my hairline (still not 100% sure if its **minorly** recceeding or holding or maybe strengthening lol).

I've tried a bunch of other stuff in the past and surprisingly trx2 is the only
Thing that has been able to
Maintain for this length of time and especially without side effects (which is HuGE for hairloss meds). Maybe it's my natural
Slow progression but like I've said I've had plenty of negative past experiences.

I have also been using hydrocortisone and, very occasionally, miconazole nitrate on the hairline. I believe the hydrocortisone has been a valuable addition

----------


## Jcm800

Thing is - trx2 has been on the market for what? Two years or so? And going by their 'customer testimonials' by now, all us long termers should be seeing positive results. I'm not, and really, i don't think any one else is either. Those that 'think' they're having a little benefit, cant even be sure its attributed to trx. The more time passes, the more i believe we're being taken for mugs.

----------


## Ted

I have taken 7g MSM per day for 3 years and my hair looks pretty much the same now as when I started it. Two years ago I stopped finasteride after using it for two years. My hair loss didn't increase after the cease of fin and I thought this was due to trx2 that I started a few months earlier.

The last year on fin I got problem with my erections and it didn't go away when quitting fin. In fact, the problem is still here to some degree.
I have read that fin decreases your nitric oxide levels so that may explain why it can give you ED but the ED should go away when you stop fin.

A few weeks ago I found this studie:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19336900

It says that:
 "MSM significantly inhibited the release of nitric oxide and prostaglandin E(2) by alleviating the expression of inducible nitric oxide synthase and cyclooxygenase-2 in LPS-stimulated RAW264.7 cells."

So I have now taken a break from MSM for about two weeks and I think my erections are getting stronger. Anyone else noticed something similar with MSM?

Nitric oxide can effect more than just erections.

Edit. I also think that I'm loosing more hair now (can be attributed to other things). I'm a nw 2,5

----------


## clandestine

You've stopped taking MSM and your erections are now stronger?

Placebo.

----------


## Ted

> You've stopped taking MSM and your erections are now stronger?
> 
> Placebo.


 Maybe but the study says that MSM decreases nitric oxide which is an important substance for erections. Viagra, for example, works through increasing nitric oxides effects

----------


## clandestine

How long we're you on fin when you started noticing erectile issues?

----------


## Ted

> How long we're you on fin when you started noticing erectile issues?


 I'm not sure. When I first started fin I got erectile issues that may be attributed to placebo. They went away after a while and then returned at the end of my fin usage.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Hmm, it's possible that study might be saying msm lowers nitric oxide in relation to the inflammatory process. If msm lowers nitric oxide regardless than I think a number of us would be limp dicks

----------


## Ted

> Hmm, it's possible that study might be saying msm lowers nitric oxide in relation to the inflammatory process. If msm lowers nitric oxide regardless than I think a number of us would be limp dicks


 Yea maybe you're right. I will stay of MSM for a month and if my erections aren't back to pre fin I will start with MSM again.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Anyone else notice a difference in erection strength while on MSM?

----------


## bananana

> Anyone else notice a difference in erection strength while on MSM?


 If anything - I'm hornier.  :Big Grin:

----------


## MrBlonde

Been on 9g MSM for about 5 months.  Harder than ever

----------


## StuckInARut

Yea, I'd taken high doses of MSM for 6 months straight and never had a problem getting it up.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Thats good. I didnt want to start placeboing myself into thinking MSM was doing this to me, which I usually do. 

Anyways, I will do  little more research.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Hmm, well most of you will likely see me fit for the looney bin for posting this but I have been taking 9-12 grams MSM lately and last night erection strength w/ GF wasnt optimal, morning erections have been dying down quickly as well. MOST likely its other issues, and of course since this was JUST mentioned its probably 99.99&#37; placebo based. 

Just want to confirm, no one else having any issues in this area right? I mean MSM associated with erection quality is silly right?

----------


## MrBlonde

Sizzler I have been taking 9grams of MSM daily for nearly 6 months now.  I rubbed one out the past two nights and am rock hard in the morning almost daily.

Your over thinking it or it could be something else such as a change in diet.  Try more fruit and veg and exercise if so.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Thx for the reply. Will investigate more.

----------


## Ted

> Thx for the reply. Will investigate more.


 If you're nervous about erections it's likely to fail. I have searched for MSM and erections and found no one who is complaining (some are complaining about other MSM sides though). In my case I think it is the finasteride who has given me problems

----------


## Space

How do you people swallow MSM powder? I've been mixing it with apple juice but that's bad for my teeth so I need an alternative..

Was just at the dentist and found out I have a hole..

----------


## MrBlonde

> How do you people swallow MSM powder? I've been mixing it with apple juice but that's bad for my teeth so I need an alternative..
> 
> Was just at the dentist and found out I have a hole..


 I get my MSM in tablets.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Ted are you still off the MSM? If so, do you notice any difference erection wise still? Im really baffled as to how my erections arent as strong now, wtf.... Maybe Im just tired or something else is effecting it, which would make the most sense, but the timing is rather strange...

----------


## Ted

> Ted are you still off the MSM? If so, do you notice any difference erection wise still? Im really baffled as to how my erections arent as strong now, wtf.... Maybe Im just tired or something else is effecting it, which would make the most sense, but the timing is rather strange...


 Yes I am. Actually I think I'm noticing a bit harder erections. But i'm also doing the NoFap reboot (yourbrainonporn.com) so I think most progress comes from no porn or masturbation.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

So 2 years off fin and only now after having been off MSM for little over 2 weeks have you started to notice a significant difference in erection strength? Were you noticing small improvements before dropping MSM? Could it just be from the increased amount of time off finas?

----------


## Thinning87

Has success from MSM been testified by pictures on the online forums?

----------


## Ted

> So 2 years off fin and only now after having been off MSM for little over 2 weeks have you started to notice a significant difference in erection strength? Were you noticing small improvements before dropping MSM? Could it just be from the increased amount of time off finas?


 No I have been seeing improvements for maybe about a year. But I think the improvements have been more noticeable since quitting MSM. As I said before, this can very possible be to other reasons than the MSM.

On another topic, I think my hair is getting thinner without MSM

----------


## Space

> No I have been seeing improvements for maybe about a year. But I think the improvements have been more noticeable since quitting MSM. As I said before, this can very possible be to other reasons than the MSM.
> 
> On another topic, I think my hair is getting thinner without MSM


 What are you on besides MSM? And what do you attribute your success to mostly?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Hey ted, think you could try getting back on MSM and seeing if things worsen? Dont think there is any lasting harm NO could do to NO levels and I think it leaves your body pretty quickly. Would you be up for this? I would be really curious to see how you fare and it would help me clarify things in my mind.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

upppdddaaattttes please! !  

Gutted, against, ulanude, and then all the other people who arent getting results, please update!!

Template--

Time on:

MSM/vitc/trx2 or just MSM/Vitc?:

Type of results:


Myself: 

1) almost 2 years

2) MSM/vitc/trx2

3) maintenance, possible small amount of regrowth but hard to tell (up and down, good days and bad days, maybe indicative of something cyclic going on and results will come.. maybe not)

----------


## sizzlinghairs

No one? Everyone is too fried out?

----------


## bananana

> No one? Everyone is too fried out?


 Hi mate,

1) 6+ months 
2) MSM/vitc/basically nothing else for hair loss
3) maintenance, also POSSIBLY very small amount of regrowth and/or thickening of existing hair, really hard to tell - but it seems so.

Other health benefits include: rock hard nails, healthy teeth, less wrinkles, better skin, no joint pain (sometimes my knee went click click click when riding a bike - no more) etc...

I'm basically really satisfied so far, I just ordered one more kg of msm.  :Smile:

----------


## Cob984

> Hi mate,
> 
> 1) 6+ months 
> 2) MSM/vitc/basically nothing else for hair loss
> 3) maintenance, also POSSIBLY very small amount of regrowth and/or thickening of existing hair, really hard to tell - but it seems so.
> 
> Other health benefits include: rock hard nails, healthy teeth, less wrinkles, better skin, no joint pain (sometimes my knee went click click click when riding a bike - no more) etc...
> 
> I'm basically really satisfied so far, I just ordered one more kg of msm.


 Congratulations, I bring good news
You dont have mpb

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Lol, cob that was kind if humorous... Anyways , he might just have less aggressive mpb. Or
He might just be a better responder than you, but no need to completely dismiss him. 

Thanks for sharing bannanas. 

Cob, did you try the hydrocortisone?

----------


## Cob984

I havent man, as of now im using Keratene topicals 2-3 times/week with Niz 1-2 times a week so sticking with that, will give it some more time
Hyrdocort still working for you?

----------


## bananana

> Congratulations, I bring good news
> You dont have mpb


 Haha, made me laugh.  :Big Grin: 

Unfortunately, I do. I'm a NW2-3 diffuse, I'm successfully masking it to NW1 (but for how long).

I already spoke about my case. I was like NW1.5 for 6 years (believing strongly cure would be here by the time I started losing more...), then all of a sudden (IN 1 YEAR) I went to diffuse 2-3. Then I decided to act. 

Anyways, since I'm on msm I believe I'm stable, itch has gone, oil has gone (I had both...). 

So far, so good.

----------


## Space

> Haha, made me laugh. 
> 
> Unfortunately, I do. I'm a NW2-3 diffuse, I'm successfully masking it to NW1 (but for how long).
> 
> I already spoke about my case. I was like NW1.5 for 6 years (believing strongly cure would be here by the time I started losing more...), then all of a sudden (IN 1 YEAR) I went to diffuse 2-3. Then I decided to act. 
> 
> Anyways, since I'm on msm I believe I'm stable, itch has gone, oil has gone (I had both...). 
> 
> So far, so good.


 Do you get your MSM in powder form? If so, how do you swallow it down?

----------


## bananana

> Do you get your MSM in powder form? If so, how do you swallow it down?


 I buy it in tab form from germany. Found a good store on ebay at a reasonable price!

----------


## saltycrab

Hey lads,
Im a lazy first time poster but ive been watching this thread for a while. 
Im on Minox niz and TRX2 and have been for over a year. 
I added Msm and vit c 7 months ago and the itch and shedding stabalized.
2 months ago i went travelling in a third world country and i forgot my msm.
My regime was the same in every other way except the Msm and vit c.
Boy have I been shedding!!
I have lost a lot of density and about 200+ hairs a day sometimes worse. The oil and itch are terrible. Im back into a country where i can get some msm tomorrow but I really think it has helped me and not having it really made it worse. Just my own experience and thoughts.

----------


## Ted

I have also been of MSM for over a month and it sure seems like my hair has gotten thinner. My reason for quitting MSM is that MSM is supposed to decrease your nitric oxide. Some people claim that increasing  nitric oxide is good for your hair but that you can notice a minoxidil like shed when you begin to increase it. So I don't know what to think

----------


## MrBlonde

> upppdddaaattttes please! !  
> 
> Gutted, against, ulanude, and then all the other people who arent getting results, please update!!
> 
> Template--
> 
> Time on:
> 
> MSM/vitc/trx2 or just MSM/Vitc?:
> ...


 Here is my update.

Time on: 5 months on TRX2  Vit C 4G  MSM 9G 5.5 months 

Overall 6 months (explained below)

Type of results:  I started TRX2 and added MSM/VITC shortly after.  Recently I had an order probelm with TRX2 which left me without it for almost a month.  They ran out of stock.

Also I changed MSM brand.  I was buying in tab form from the same German ebay store that Bananana is using.  Its the best value imo (I left a link in this thread somewhere).  When I switched MSM brands the itch almost instantly returned and so did the shed leading me to believe I did not get genuine MSM.  I am back on the German MSM and the itch has gone along with the increased shed but I lost some ground in the meantime.

I have gone a week without TRX2 before due to order delays with no return of the itch which leads me to believe its controlled soley by the MSM.

I have photos taken with my hair wet under a light at about the 2 month mark and then again at the 5 months mark, before my MSM switching problems. I believe they show some signs of improvement.  I am dissapointed I took at hit recently but hope to regain now that I have my MSM back.

I will post these photos shortly.  As gutted said its a 12 months timeline so hopefully there is more improvement to come.

----------


## MrBlonde

These first two photo's (on the left) are at the 2 month mark.  You can see the thinning in the crown and some has spread further down towards the frontal area.  The is more evident in the middle photo due to better light, which is the second photo taken at the two months mark.

The last photo (on the right) was around the four month mark.  Excuse my error earlier I though it was five months but from the timestamps on the photos I can see it was only four, which is better news.  I believe the crown has thickened as well as the front and even some regrowth maybe.  This was very hard to notice day to day but only evident when looking back on these photos.  Please note these are not the best photo picks from hundreds I took.  These are the only photo's I took.

I also second Ted's comments about hair getting thinner off MSM.  I slightly experienced this at the front area but it could have been taking place at the scalp area but I haven't been paying close attention.  I remember when I started MSM I complained along with Cob that my hair got very thin and straw like.  I am going through this again although not to the same extent as before.  I believe this is natural and things get worse and then better with MSM as is the case with most programs.  This is a natural side effect of MSM.

----------


## LongWayHome

MrBlonde, I just started MSM & Vit C and considering your results, I actually can say, ladies and gentleman, that I finally don't feel stupid.
Your results are clear, your hair is wet and it definitely did something good.

----------


## Cob984

Decent results mr. blonde, think its time i ramp up my intake,
I am now on 3g msm, 1 vitc, think i will make it 4g and 2g today onward

----------


## Cob984

Decent results mr. blonde, think its time i ramp up my intake,
I am now on 3g msm, 1 vitc, think i will make it 4g and 2g today onward

----------


## Jcm800

Yes, decent results there.  Quite surprising actually!  How much are you taking daily MrBlonde?

Also, gutted where are you, what do you think?

----------


## MrBlonde

> Yes, decent results there.  Quite surprising actually!  How much are you taking daily MrBlonde?
> 
> Also, gutted where are you, what do you think?


 

4G VIT 9G MSM and three TRX2 tabs as recommended.  

Some days I don't do 9G of MSM but the minimum I ever take it 5G

----------


## Jcm800

:


> 4G VIT 9G MSM and three TRX2 tabs as recommended.  
> 
> Some days I don't do 9G of MSM but the minimum I ever take it 5G


 Ok tks, where do you get your vitc from, are you in the UK?

----------


## MrBlonde

> :
> 
> Ok tks, where do you get your vitc from, are you in the UK?


 I'm in Ireland.  I buy my VitC in Tesco's

----------


## Jcm800

> I'm in Ireland.  I buy my VitC in Tesco's


 Fair play, I get my in Sainsburys lol.

----------


## bananana

Do you think that high intake of vitc is necessary?

I take 1-2 grams max. Do you think I should up the dosage. I take solgars vitc and drink orange juice etc..

----------


## MrBlonde

> Do you think that high intake of vitc is necessary?
> 
> I take 1-2 grams max. Do you think I should up the dosage. I take solgars vitc and drink orange juice etc..


 I followed Gutted's plan based on his results.  I'm not really the guy to be asking about what you should take but I don't think 4g's is that high.  It can't be bad for you so it comes down to your own finances and personal choices really.

I should say in relation to my photos that I still lose at the hairline but its slowed right down.

Here is a timeline of my resultsThe MSM made my hair thin and straw like early on
After a couple of weeks the itch was gone.
About 6 weeks in the shedding reduced.
I believe my hair was thickening at this point. Its hard to tell day to day but to the touch and from some photos I think this happened.
Shedding pretty much stopped happening day to day.  I would only lose when showering and brushing.

I have lost ground lately with that setback I had from the bad MSM but I hope to recover.  I should stress I still lose at the hairline as Gutted does but its now only during showering and brushing.  It was easy for me to notice hairfall day to day as I have dark hair and my office desk is white.  I would always see hairs on it daily and in my fingers if I ran my hair through my hands.  That doesn't happen now.  Maybe the odd 1-3 hairs a week might fall but that's a normal shed rate I'd reckon.

My verdict on this program is that it helps slow things down MPB wise, it may even halt it for a few years if you catch your MPB early or not in such a strong cycle .  The TRX2 may have helped me regain some lost hairs but I wont get back to a NW1 on this.  My hope is that I can hang onto as much as possible with this natural program until something like Histogen hits the market and then I can work on some serious regrowth or maintaining what I have forever rather than just slowing it down.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

pretty evident results, congrats! 

So just a thought on vit C @ 4g which might be responsible for blonde's results. Dkk-1 (dickkopf-1) has been implicated as a main player in follicle miniaturization. It has been shown to be second in the inflammatory process to DHT. 

I was just reading recently on ha irlosshelp.com after doing some searching, that a vit-c salt, l-ascorbic 2-phosphate, was shown to inhibit dkk-1.

The conclusion was that it might be too weak. But anyways, the 4g vit c, which is a substantial amount, might be doing something to inhibit dkk-1.

So maybe everyone should be doing a 4g minimum. I hope thats safe though.

----------


## MrBlonde

> pretty evident results, congrats! 
> 
> So just a thought on vit C @ 4g which might be responsible for blonde's results. Dkk-1 (dickkopf-1) has been implicated as a main player in follicle miniaturization. It has been shown to be second in the inflammatory process to DHT. 
> 
> I was just reading recently on ha irlosshelp.com after doing some searching, that a vit-c salt, l-ascorbic 2-phosphate, was shown to inhibit dkk-1.
> 
> The conclusion was that it might be too weak. But anyways, the 4g vit c, which is a substantial amount, might be doing something to inhibit dkk-1.
> 
> So maybe everyone should be doing a 4g minimum. *I hope thats safe though*.


 Is too much Vit C bad for you?  I haven't read anything about this, please enlighten me.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Well, we would have to do more research but, Im currently in nursing school and learned that a vit c side effect can be kidney stones.. Not sure about the details of this, maybe the individual has to already be sensitive or have impaired kidney function..

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Copyied and pasted this, I put my own thoughts at the end:

Vitamin C is one of the water-soluble vitamins, meaning it dissolves in water. It is difficult to overdose on water-soluble vitamins since the body tends to flush them away easily. 

However, it is possible to overdose on vitamin C. The chronic toxic dose (meaning how much you have to take over a period of time to see negative effects) is more than 2 grams a day. The acute toxic dose is not known. Deaths from vitamin C overdose are very rare, and there may be none recorded. 

The possible negative effects of taking too much vitamin C are: 
- diarrhea,
- nausea,
- possible dental decalcification (i.e., softening of the teeth), 
- increased estrogen levels,
- renal colic (i.e., kidney stones)
- in infants born to women taking high doses, rebound scurvy (where the child was exposed to too much vitamin C from the mother before birth, and so is does not have enough vitamin C after being born.) 

Further, vitamin C can interfere with some drug treatments, like cancer treatment. 

The normal recommended daily allowance for vitamin C for healthy adults is 50-60 milligrams (mg) a day. For pregnant women it is 70 mg a day, and for nursing women, it 90 mg a day. The usual recommended supplement to prevent deficiency is also about 50-60 mg a day, but that can rise to 100 mg. in certain situations. 

And of course, if you eat a good diet, you won't need any supplements at all, and there is basically zero risk of overdosing. 

The reason is certain conditions can increase your need for vitamin C. These include 
- AIDS (acquired immune deficiency syndrome),
- alcoholism,
- burns,
- cancer,
- prolonged diarrhea,
- prolonged fever,
- prolonged infection, 
- some intestinal diseases,
- an overactive thyroid,
- stomach ulcers,
- chronic stress,
- surgical removal of the stomach,
- tuberculosis.

------------


*keep in mind that just because this article says that toxic doses are over 2 g over time, that does not automatically mean that is the case with us. More than likely, we will be ok but they have to put it as it is still a possibility.

----------


## jackbenson56

> I followed Gutted's plan based on his results.  I'm not really the guy to be asking about what you should take but I don't think 4g's is that high.  It can't be bad for you so it comes down to your own finances and personal choices really.
> 
> I should say in relation to my photos that I still lose at the hairline but its slowed right down.
> 
> Here is a timeline of my results. . .


 Really noticeable results, congrats! Apologies if you've already stated this somewhere in the thread, but what brand MSM are you using? I have some Holland and Barrett MSM which is 750mg, which I'm introducing my body to slowly. Unsure whether to splash out on the TXR2 too. I'm a diffuse thinner in the early stages, but with an aggressive itch.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Really noticeable results, congrats! Apologies if you've already stated this somewhere in the thread, but what brand MSM are you using? I have some Holland and Barrett MSM which is 750mg, which I'm introducing my body to slowly. Unsure whether to splash out on the TXR2 too. I'm a diffuse thinner in the early stages, but with an aggressive itch.


 http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI....:X:RTQ:DE:1123)

----------


## sizzlinghairs

This from a knowledgeable health guy on immortal hair forums about 4 g vit c. He knows his stuff.

-----

Its kind of a controversial subject. If you ask Linus Pauling, he'd probably say it was totally safe. I believe that at one point he was taking 20-30 g daily, and lived to the ripe old age of 93.

We can probably assume that there is an upper limit for health reasons, as vitamin C in too high of amounts actually contributes to oxidation. So the negative effects may not be acute for some, but from a practical standpoint, going above a certain amount might just be counterproductive to what you are trying to achieve in the first place, which is an antioxidant effect. The adverse effects of too high of intake that you would notice are almost strictly gastrointestinal (if one experiences them at all). You'd get stomach cramps and diarrhea. That's probably one way of telling if your dose is too high.

A study out of Cornell from some years ago tested the body's capacity to absorb vitamin C. They found that there is a relative limit and it depends on how high the dose is, i.e. there are diminishing returns. Once you hit a certain gram/day dose, you actually start absorbing less of it so its counterproductive.
A 5g/day dose was absorbed at a rate of 35%, with the rest being excreted in urine. At 10g/day in two divided doses, total absorption dropped to around 25%. Some people will absorb more, some less. I'd imagine Linus, even if he was at the high end of the distribution, was probably only absorbing 3-5 grams of what he was taking each day.

According to the author, the limit of absorptive capacity of the human intestine for vitamin C is reached at about 3 g per day. 4 grams daily is probably safe. But for me, its an issue of usefulness. 500mg-1000mg doses taken with meals 3 meals a day should be just fine.

I believe A < R was doing around 4 grams daily, and said good things about this.

----------


## jackbenson56

> http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI....:X:RTQ:DE:1123)


 Thanks a lot, I'll order some when I run out of the Holland/Barrett stuff. Are you taking your 9g/4g at once, or throughout the day?

----------


## jackbenson56

Did anyone have a big increase in sebum production after starting this? I've been on around 5-6g MSM and 2-3 VitC for around two weeks, and my hair is very oily.

----------


## bananana

> Did anyone have a big increase in sebum production after starting this? I've been on around 5-6g MSM and 2-3 VitC for around two weeks, and my hair is very oily.


 hm, i've had just the opposite... my hair now doesnt get oily till day 5 or 6.

----------


## bananana

It's 7 month mark for me.

Skin, nails still look great, itch is still low, shedding is as usual. 30-50 hairs when washing. (I wash hair every 4-6 days). *NO OIL AT ALL* - this is a huge success for me because I had hell of an oily scalp, literary I could scrape a few grams of that shit from my had.

But on the downside - no regrowth. It's really hard to tell because I'd need to cut my hair short and compare to early 2012 pics, but I'm pretty sure there is non, at least not noticeable. 

I'm pretty sad because I've seen mr.blondes results which are SUPERB! I hoped to see something like that myself.

Oh, well, I'm continuing with MSM for sure, but I'm feeling I need to add something stronger like RU or BNP to really make it regrow, I'll wait for more results from you guys and then decide.

In the long term I'm probably going for HM @ Dr. Nigam (still waiting for OBIs results and his improved technique), I believe I could have good results because I'm diffuse, and HM gave some very good results on diffuse thinners.

I'll stop jerking because that just builds up dht and my hair is far more important than porn so...  :Smile:

----------


## MrBlonde

> It's 7 month mark for me.
> 
> Skin, nails still look great, itch is still low, shedding is as usual. 30-50 hairs when washing. (I wash hair every 4-6 days). *NO OIL AT ALL* - this is a huge success for me because I had hell of an oily scalp, literary I could scrape a few grams of that shit from my had.
> 
> But on the downside - no regrowth. It's really hard to tell because I'd need to cut my hair short and compare to early 2012 pics, but I'm pretty sure there is non, at least not noticeable. 
> 
> I'm pretty sad because I've seen mr.blondes results which are SUPERB! I hoped to see something like that myself.
> 
> Oh, well, I'm continuing with MSM for sure, but I'm feeling I need to add something stronger like RU or BNP to really make it regrow, I'll wait for more results from you guys and then decide.
> ...


 So your are not on TRX2 then?

I have taken a setback recently since my last posting.  I was unable to purchase TRX2 and went a month without.  In that time my hair became very thin and I shed at the hairline a lot.  I believe my crown area is still stable but I am now convinced TRX2 does something in terms of thickening and growing hairs.  

I just got my supply today and hope to strenghten my hair again.  I will keep you posted.

----------


## bananana

> So your are not on TRX2 then?
> 
> I have taken a setback recently since my last posting.  I was unable to purchase TRX2 and went a month without.  In that time my hair became very thin and I shed at the hairline a lot.  I believe my crown area is still stable but I am now convinced TRX2 does something in terms of thickening and growing hairs.  
> 
> I just got my supply today and hope to strenghten my hair again.  I will keep you posted.


 Nope, never thought much of it. Do you think I should go for it?

I have the same kind of hairloss as you do - and you had what I believe is amazing regrowth with this combo.

hmmm... I definitely need to add something - im thinking RU or BNP, if you believe trx gave you good results I can try it for at least 5-6 months...

----------


## MrBlonde

> Nope, never thought much of it. Do you think I should go for it?
> 
> I have the same kind of hairloss as you do - and you had what I believe is amazing regrowth with this combo.
> 
> hmmm... I definitely need to add something - im thinking RU or BNP, if you believe trx gave you good results I can try it for at least 5-6 months...


 Well the reason I went with this combo was that it was all natural.  I had read many people laugh at TRX2 but one or two say it maintained things for them.  I jumped on this with the belief TRX2 might help maintain and VITC/MSM would help regrowth.  I now believe TRX2 is the regrowth factor.

Regrowth is hard to notice and I believe many people would have been on TRX2 and had some results but not notice them as its such a sow process and you continue to shed some hairs.  Its only when I compared my pictures that I noticed something.  I went through other private pictures of my face and noticed things thicker at the front.  Be diligent people, take pictures, its like weight loss, its hard to notice unless you have a scales to tell you what works and what doesn't.

I should say this though, I would always lose at the hairline/ temples but at a slower pace since jumping on this and its the hardest place to maintain.  I had a bad batch of MSM from ebay and I went a month without TRX2 and my hair thinned dramatically, its been a major setback.  I will not let this happen again.  I will post more pictures in a few months after being on TRX2 and compare them with now to see have things improved again.

I'll offer this advise for those thinking of using TRX2.  Its not cheap, about 70 if ordering individual bottles and like Fin or Minox your are going to lose gains if you drop of it.  My second piece of advise is to order in bulk, three bottles per order.  Twice TRX2 have been out of stock when ordering and I ran out.  They can take a few days from placing the order to shipping so always reorder when you are half way through your last bottle.

My plan is to hang on to as much as I can unitl Histogen hits and have a HT to get a great hairline.  I am also looking at BNP with interest and will jump on this if positive results come in soon.

----------


## MrBlonde

My advise would be to hang on a little longer and see do I recover from this set back and we will have confirmation of TRX2 and this combo helping me a second time.  Also BNP might produce something, we should know this an 6 weeks or so.

I things are desperate and you need to pull the trigger on something only you can decide which way to go and as we all now people react differently to different treatments.

I am very wary of recommending a treatment to somebody for these very reasons as hair means so much to people and I would not want to be responsible for any bad results

All I can do is point you towards TRX2's trial results





> 9 months (active treatment group)
> 
> Hair count (Mean number of hair in an area of 2×2 cm): +35.1%
> Hair Thickness (Mean weight of hair  bundle of 30 strands): +22.5%
> Terminal hair change (% change from vellus to non-vellus): +23.2%
> Self-evaluation of satisfaction (score between 0-10 cm with 10 being the most satisfied): 7.8 ± 2.0 cm
> 
> 18 months (active treatment group)
> 
> ...


 Make of what you will.  The ingedients of TRX2 are interesting if researched individually and I am considering buying these individually as you will get more for less cost.

This is taken from another forum




> The most interesting ingredient here is L-Carnitine L-Tartrate (carnipure). It is thought to upregulate or increase the density of androgen receptors in muscle tissue. Would it have the same effect at the scalp? At first thought this seems bad given what we think we know about MPB...however;
> 
> - maybe an increase in androgen receptors in muscle pulls more DHT out of your body at the muscle cells, slowing the rate at which androgens bind to sites at the follicle.
> 
> - maybe more receptors at the scalp increases the amount of time it takes for androgens to fully saturate receptors at the follicle.
> 
> - maybe both
> 
> - maybe neither

----------


## MrBlonde

hairloss-research.org  did their own study of TRX2 and concluded the following and suggest their own treatment




> Carnitine is an amino acid that occurs naturally in the human body and is essential for turning fat into energy. Local active energy metabolism is an essential prerequisite for healthy, sustained hair growth.
> 
>       Research has conclusively shown that in balding areas of the scalp in both men and women, the membrane potential of the hair follicle is significantly diminished, in response to an androgenetically mediated reduction in potassium channel function within the hair follicle.
> 
>       Mitochondrial membrane potential improves to some degree with supplemental Carnitine and even more so with Acetyl-L-Carnitine, which actually strengthens the functioning of mitochondria itself.
> 
>       Dr. Thomas Whitfield, of Oxford University and Oxford BioLabs found that L-carnitine stimulates energy production and cardiolipin synthesis within the cell membranes of hair follicles. It transports nutrients to dysfunctional potassium channels and helps to restore functionality.
> 
>       In a recent experiment with balding human hair at the University of Lubeck in Germany, Carnitine was shown to promote hair growth, stimulate hair shaft elongation and reduce hair cell death.
> ...

----------


## MrBlonde

If you look at the TRX2 website they claim the product is for norwood 1-4 range and is not going to do anything for slicks.  So it would suggest it works on thinning hair and saves some weak hair folicles.  They claim it improves activation of the potassium channels & allows more nutrients to reach the follicles to allow hair to grow.

Their claims are not to outrages and their after pictures are not too far fetched which I like too, this is something similar to my experiece, although the before picture seems to have a brighter light on the scalp then the after picture or is that just my take on it?



More pics found here http://www.trx2.com/store/hair-loss-treatment/

Make of it what you will but document your progress at all times no matter what treatment you use not for us but for your own benefit, its hard to see progress day by day by just glancing in the mirror.

----------


## Ginkosama

Many bodybuilders have been taking carnitine for training years, don't you think someone would have reported hair growth by then ?

----------


## MrBlonde

> Many bodybuilders have been taking carnitine for training years, don't you think someone would have reported hair growth by then ?


 Its not the carnitine alone, after all carnitine is a naturally produced amino acid in the body that turns fat into energy so there wold be no balding if its was the cure.  Its carnitines relationship with L-carnitine which stimulates energy and more so Acetyl-L-carnitin which increases Potassium Channel function (which is exactly what Minox also does) and lowering the increased localized and systemic oxidative stress associated with aging.

Bodybuilders efforts may be hampered by the high levels of testosterone they are producing and nothing supplementing the carnitine intake.

 Its the combo that is important, as the report says  the mechanisms identified by Dr. Whitfield, that both Carnitine and Branched Chain Amino Acids offer some benefit to hair loss on their own, it is the combination of the above mentioned compounds that would appear offer optimal benefit for both health and sustained hair growth.

I believe TRX2 causes some regrowth, not life changing regrowth but if it can stop loss and regrow hair side effect free its a better product than Minox or Fin as an option to maintain until a real big hitter comes to market.

----------


## bananana

MrBlonde, (btw a reference to Michael Madsen in Resevoir dogs?)  :Smile: 

I personally find your regrowth pretty AMAZING with just using trx/msm combo. See the pic attached for a comparison.

I'm really thinking about adding TRX2 to the mix, but 175 euro (including shipping) for 3 months worth of pills is just  :EEK!: 

700 euro yearly is just crazy, but I don't know - if it gives me your results, it's probably worth it.

----------


## MrBlonde

> MrBlonde, (btw a reference to Michael Madsen in Resevoir dogs?) 
> 
> I personally find your regrowth pretty AMAZING with just using trx/msm combo. See the pic attached for a comparison.
> 
> I'm really thinking about adding TRX2 to the mix, but 175 euro (including shipping) for 3 months worth of pills is just 
> 
> 700 euro yearly is just crazy, but I don't know - if it gives me your results, it's probably worth it.


 Spot on with the Resevoir dogs reference.  I myself was encouraged and a little taken a back when I compared the photos.  The hair in the after picture may be a little longer and taken when wetter.  It was two months between timestamps of the photos iirc but I think the main success is down to thickening of the longer hairs and not all doe to regrowth.

I must stress that the temples continue to take a hit but did slow down a lot.


MSM really grows hair quick so it helps with the impression of more hair but I think something has happened.  Its exactly a month tomorrow since I posted those pictures.  I will take more after I shower later but like I said I missed out on TRX2 and things feel much thinner at the hairline so it was a knock but I will continue to take pictures and keep them for future updates.

----------


## Jcm800

I dont get it - for me this combo and trx2 isnt worth a piss in the wind. I've been on trx2 for 13 months religiously, and the msm/vit c combo alongside it for around 8 months. All downhill for me - but hey, good luck to one or two of you that it appear's to be helping.

----------


## Ginkosama

Mr Blonde, many studies you posted to document carnitine's effect were made by ... Dr Whitfield, who s also the creator of TRX2.
I think we can say these studies are questionable at best.

Again, every form of carnitine is available on the market, and none reports hair growth... Even as a side effect.
Anyway the price of TRX2 is ridiculous considering the ingredients.

EDIT : Yup Jcm, I have been on MSM + vit C for 8 months or smg, still shedding like a cheap rug.
I am just more hairy and less horny when I take it. Plus if i take too much (like half a tea spoon) I get dizzy from it, what a gem.

----------


## bananana

> I dont get it - for me this combo and trx2 isnt worth a piss in the wind. I've been on trx2 for 13 months religiously, and the msm/vit c combo alongside it for around 8 months. All downhill for me - but hey, good luck to one or two of you that it appear's to be helping.


 This is the reason why I have doubts about pouring 700 euro in trx  :Frown: 

I dont know, can we just find some alternative pills that have those compounds?

I believe in msm, because out of ALL the things I tried in my life (and we're talking about 100's of different vitamins, nutrients etc) this is THE ONLY one which gave me RESULTS. In results I mean better skin, better nails, less oil and less itch. I'm convinced it does something good, but I highly doubt in TRX. Not so many people reported good results, and frankly I think it's overpriced by at least 100&#37;.

----------


## Ginkosama

> and frankly I think it's overpriced by at least 100%.


 Try 200%, if the guy was sure about his crap he would have made it cheaper.
The high price avoided the flow of bad reviews and being categorized as a snake oil.

----------


## Jcm800

I still have 3.5 bottles of trx2 left. i may as well use them up, after that i'll cancel (i'll have been on it around 16 months then) it'll be interesting to see if my hair loss accelerates even more..

Jeez, it cant be working, lately i've really been considering Fin and thats something i swore id never take.

----------


## MrBlonde

> Mr Blonde, many studies you posted to document carnitine's effect were made by ... Dr Whitfield, who s also the creator of TRX2.
> I think we can say these studies are questionable at best.
> 
> Again, every form of carnitine is available on the market, and none reports hair growth... Even as a side effect.
> Anyway the price of TRX2 is ridiculous considering the ingredients.
> 
> EDIT : Yup Jcm, I have been on MSM + vit C for 8 months or smg, still shedding like a cheap rug.
> I am just more hairy and less horny when I take it. Plus if i take too much (like half a tea spoon) I get dizzy from it, what a gem.


 Carnitine's effect were made by ... Dr Whitfield in combonation with other elements, that is the important part for me.  I am no expert but can only go on the reports and evidence before me.

What is your reason for questioning  Dr Whitfield may i ASK?

----------


## MrBlonde

> This is the reason why I have doubts about pouring 700 euro in trx 
> 
> I dont know, can we just find some alternative pills that have those compounds?
> 
> I believe in msm, because out of ALL the things I tried in my life (and we're talking about 100's of different vitamins, nutrients etc) this is THE ONLY one which gave me RESULTS. In results I mean better skin, better nails, less oil and less itch. I'm convinced it does something good, but I highly doubt in TRX. Not so many people reported good results, and frankly I think it's overpriced by at least 100%.


 I agree about MSM.  It got rid of the MPB itch for a few of us did it not? Only you can decide on the TRX2 but a couple of users have reported it helping them.

In the report I posted earlier it suggested the ingredients you should buy to get the optimal results from a TRX2 type all natural regime.

TRX2 may help with the crown and slow down the hairline loss but not halt it.  Again I understand peoples doubts but my pictures are here for all to see and I will continue to post more if I notice things improve or get worse.

----------


## bananana

> I agree about MSM.  It got rid of the MPB itch for a few of us did it not? Only you can decide on the TRX2 but a couple of users have reported it helping them.
> 
> In the report I posted earlier it suggested the ingredients you should buy to get the optimal results from a TRX2 type all natural regime.
> 
> TRX2 may help with the crown and slow down the hairline loss but not halt it.  Again I understand peoples doubts but my pictures are here for all to see and I will continue to post more if I notice things improve or get worse.


 I'm in a dilemma - RU/BNP or TRX2, trx has an advantage - it's a pill! you dont have to grease your hair each and single day, but it cost hell of a lot and it has questionable efficacy... hmm..

----------


## clandestine

> I'm in a dilemma - RU/BNP or TRX2, trx has an advantage - it's a pill! you dont have to grease your hair each and single day, but it cost hell of a lot and it has questionable efficacy... hmm..


 trx2 is ******ing retarded, bananana, don't waste time.

Go with fin and/or RU or Keratene, and BNP or minox.

----------


## StayThick

What's the deal with BNP?? Keep hearing about it but hear nothing in terms of results. Crickets on that front.

Anybody using it?

----------


## clandestine

> What's the deal with BNP?? Keep hearing about it but hear nothing in terms of results. Crickets on that front.
> 
> Anybody using it?


 Some are, it's too early for any results, though. It's pretty out there in terms of new substances looked at, so we can't say much for efficacy yet. There is some hope in it though, based on official trial and documentation.

----------


## fl4va

I have 1 & half bottles of the rubbish (trx2) left.  Not going to use it. Anyone want it??   Or I'm probably going put it on fleebay, no reserve.

----------


## Cob984

> I have 1 & half bottles of the rubbish (trx2) left.  Not going to use it. Anyone want it??   Or I'm probably going put it on fleebay, no reserve.


 How much you want?

----------


## oppenheimer82

you can not stop aga with vitamins. this thread is beyond ridiculous. but to each their own.

----------


## Jcm800

> How much you want?


 Cob, why are you asking even? You usually slag it off highly!?

----------


## bananana

> you can not stop aga with vitamins. this thread is beyond ridiculous. but to each their own.


 yeah, it all comes down to this. 

but how come nobody discredited them, i mean they're probably selling this stuff for 2 years now?! They have some really wild claims about % of thicker/more hairs after 12/18 months, whats up with that.

people should discredit them for good if they're fake.

+ they're charging a FORTUNE for 1 bottle.

----------


## TheBadger

> I dont get it - for me this combo and trx2 isnt worth a piss in the wind. I've been on trx2 for 13 months religiously, and the msm/vit c combo alongside it for around 8 months. All downhill for me - but hey, good luck to one or two of you that it appear's to be helping.


 Least I'm not the only one. I'm still not on quite the full 9g/4g admittedly (6g/2g at the moment) but coming up to 6 months now and it hasn't even got rid of the itch, never mind anything else. All it's done is make my hair really dry, which can be countered partly by using conditioner at least, but as far as I know I've had no benefits at all. Only thing that's keeping me trying is that if anything were to happen, it'd be after being on it for a while (well, and MrBlonde's pics), but I'm honestly thinking of just giving up. If it's not even getting rid of the itch after this long, it doesn't seem likely I'm going to get any of the later benefits.

----------


## fl4va

> How much you want?


 actually... i have 2 and a half bottles left. 

and where is Gutted?   the man that started this thread. no recent updates from him?  Planted the seed then fuked off.   arsehole.

----------


## Irishamerica

> actually... i have 2 and a half bottles left. 
> 
> and where is Gutted?   the man that started this thread. no recent updates from him?  Planted the seed then fuked off.   arsehole.


 I have been on it for 6 months very strict as well. No SLS shampoos or DHT reducing treatments . Defiantly reduces the itch because I stopped for a week at the 4th month mark and the itch was back again . Now my hair is quite thick so cant tell if I am jus losing ground at a slower rate now but it defiantly reduced the itch so if that is definably related to hairloos than its working for me . If not its just doesn't remind me a much that I am losing my hair because the itch is not there . I Just think that there is to much coincidence that the itch happens in the MPB region for them not to be related ...

----------


## bananana

> actually... i have 2 and a half bottles left. 
> 
> and where is Gutted?   the man that started this thread. no recent updates from him?  Planted the seed then fuked off.   arsehole.


 yeah, i'm wondering where is he...

----------


## MrBlonde

> yeah, i'm wondering where is he...


 Usually guys don't come to the forum if they feel they have a handle on their MPB.


Bananana once again let me restate I can't give you promises about TRX2 and if you are looking to add something to your regime maybe RU is the better option.  It will be cheaper and it seems to have a lot more concrete results to show.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

> Mr Blonde, many studies you posted to document carnitine's effect were made by ... Dr Whitfield, who s also the creator of TRX2.
> I think we can say these studies are questionable at best.
> 
> Again, every form of carnitine is available on the market, and none reports hair growth... Even as a side effect.
> Anyway the price of TRX2 is ridiculous considering the ingredients.
> 
> EDIT : Yup Jcm, I have been on MSM + vit C for 8 months or smg, still shedding like a cheap rug.
> I am just more hairy and less horny when I take it. Plus if i take too much (like half a tea spoon) I get dizzy from it, what a gem.


 Ginko, how are you less horny when you take MSM? Do you mean indirectly from dizziness? MSM has no effect on androgens. Can you please ellaborate?

*edit: Has anyone else experienced a loss of libido from MSM?

----------


## Space

> Least I'm not the only one. I'm still not on quite the full 9g/4g admittedly (6g/2g at the moment) but coming up to 6 months now and it hasn't even got rid of the itch, never mind anything else. All it's done is make my hair really dry, which can be countered partly by using conditioner at least, but as far as I know I've had no benefits at all. Only thing that's keeping me trying is that if anything were to happen, it'd be after being on it for a while (well, and MrBlonde's pics), but I'm honestly thinking of just giving up. If it's not even getting rid of the itch after this long, it doesn't seem likely I'm going to get any of the later benefits.


 If you have problems with itch I suggest looking into changing your diet. I have managed to completely get rid of my itch and it tends to come back when I start eating junk.

Start by excluding junk food, if that doesn't work experiment with excluding wheat, dairy and sugar, and on top if that you might to try excluding the nightshade family (tomato, potatoes, pepper) as it tends to be inflammatory.

----------


## Irishamerica

I think as gutted originally said it works for certain type of people. I would love to see out of the people whom it has stopped the itch for what kind of skin type are they . For me I have oily and acne pron skin and it has reduced the oil in my skin and also the itch. another observation I have had is that a huge amount of people with MPH have acne or have had acne ...

----------


## Space

> I think as gutted originally said it works for certain type of people. I would love to see out of the people whom it has stopped the itch for what kind of skin type are they . For me I have oily and acne pron skin and it has reduced the oil in my skin and also the itch. another observation I have had is that a huge amount of people with MPH have acne or have had acne ...


 For me MSM seems to accelerate the rate at which my hairs come out, I experience more shedding especially when i Start taking MSM. My hair also seems to grow really fast.

I can't tell if shedding in that manner is a warning signal and I should stop or it's nothing to worry about. Anyone have a similair experience? Thoughts?

----------


## Pentarou

It really depresses me that people still fall for this Immortal Hair type rubbish.  :Frown:

----------


## Jcm800

> It really depresses me that people still fall for this Immortal Hair type rubbish.


 It depresses me more as I've spent hundreds of £ on the crap. 

Still, no one put a gun to me my head and forced me.

----------


## Jcm800

Anyone got anything good to say about this? Feel i've wasted good time and money here, was worth a try - i'll carry on, simply cos i have supplies, but trx2 is going to get dropped, waste of money imo.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Jcm, whats the total amount of time w/o stopping that you have been on trx2? I remembered you stopped and started again at some point, or am I not remembering correctly..


I will say for me it has helped to maintain and strengthen. 0 side effects which I really love. But I probably have less aggressive loss than you.

Check out this thread from a wholistic hairloss forum, immortalhair.com. The thread is about a method a guy is using to get pretty decent results. You might be interested. The most important part of it is the manual brushing daily with a boar bristle brush. Takes time and dedication though. Check for another guy "slomoe" on that site too, he has gotten some solid regrowth from essentially the same method.

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...e-ferox-method

----------


## Jcm800

Hi Sizzling - i was on it approx 9 months the first time around, and around 13 months this time. Hmm you say less aggressive than me? i've been losing since the age of 27 (i'm now 44) and perhaps not even a NW3 - so i thought i'm hardly an aggressive sufferer, but trx still didnt help. (if it did, it's almost imaginary)

I'll have a look at that thread, thanks.


..lol - i gave up when i read the hanging upside down bit, is he taking the piss?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Well maybe some peoples loss involves slightly different factors then others. The same fundamental mechanisms but maybe slightly different qualities to each individual...

Lol, thats why I made it a point to say the most important aspect of what hes saying is the manual brushing with a boar bristle brush. The hanging upside down aspect is to create maximum bloodflow to the head, but thats definitely over the top imo. 

Heres another link which shows someone getting regrowth with a similar method. 

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...-hairline-pics

For the hairline shots the ones on the left are the after and the ones on the right are the before shots. For the crown shots the right is after shots and the left is before.

Make sure to right click the pics and select "open in new tab" so you can see them as a whole. Thats for windows, not sure about a mac.

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks Sizzling, but i'll pass on that method - appreciate your suggestion tho.

Have you ever tried Finasteride?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Finasteride is death. All I gotta say, hormonal genocide.

Tried it for a month, libido loss, watery semen, etc.

You are destroying a major hormone in the body that is there for a reason, I cant see how people can justify taking it.

----------


## Jcm800

Yeah i know, i'm still on the fence, but getting more tempted daily tho, even when common sense says dont take the risk, desperation keeps tempting me..

----------


## bananana

i'm still using MSM, 8 months in, I added divine herbal oil 1 month ago, and I must say I see some positive changes - itch is completely eliminated now, and I see less hair in the drain when I shower... I use it just every 4 days. I dermaroll the scalp before use.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Banana, u mean MSM/vit C right? Cant remember, were you taking trx2 as well?

Anything else in your regimen besides the divine hair oil?

----------


## bananana

> Banana, u mean MSM/vit C right? Cant remember, were you taking trx2 as well?
> 
> Anything else in your regimen besides the divine hair oil?


 Yeah, MSM/vit c, been taking it for over 8 months now, without a break.
I never took trx2 because, I dont know, it just doesnt sound like something that can really make a difference + a lot of people on different forums reported no results whatsoever after more than 6 months of use... 

I added divine herbal oil, because basically - it really cant hurt, and I read some good reviews on ebay and on the web. I must say after just a month I got 1&#37; of the itch I had about a year ago (I was itching like a maniac), MSM lowered the itch to about 10% of what I had before. Plus I see less hair in shower since I'm using oil. I intend to keep using the oil at least a year and see the results, there are many reports of users on ebay (males) who saw regrowth. 

I also think the dermarolling part is very important (better absorption).

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Hey Banana, what other forums are you referring to? 


Thanks

----------


## bananana

> Hey Banana, what other forums are you referring to? 
> 
> 
> Thanks


 Dont shoot me if I'm wrong but I believe I read some positive posts on ************ and immortal hair, but it was some months ago so I'm not 100&#37;. Also I think they have a 100% positive feedback on ebay - that is pretty big.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

> Dont shoot me if I'm wrong but I believe I read some positive posts on ************ and immortal hair, but it was some months ago so I'm not 100%. Also I think they have a 100% positive feedback on ebay - that is pretty big.


 Oops, sorry. Was reffering to which forums did you hear about trx2 getting more negative reviews?

----------


## oppenheimer82

winston should remove this thread to another section of this forum. taking a bunch of vitamins has nothing to do with ''cutting edge treatment''.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

sorry to ask this again but, to ALL msm users out there, 

Has anyone experienced erection issues with dosages upwards of 6g?

(not sure I am, could very well possibly be from something else)

----------


## Jcm800

> sorry to ask this again but, to ALL msm users out there, 
> 
> Has anyone experienced erection issues with dosages upwards of 6g?
> 
> (not sure I am, could very well possibly be from something else)


 Nah mate, it's not even having that effect on me.

----------


## bananana

> Oops, sorry. Was reffering to which forums did you hear about trx2 getting more negative reviews?


 I heard it all around, even here, lot of guys tried, check the trx thread.

----------


## Jcm800

> I heard it all around, even here, lot of guys tried, check the trx thread.


 it says on the trx website that it "regrows hair in nearly 9/10 men & women" Really? where the hell are they? They aint on BTT..and it hasn't regrown ONE hair on my head in 15 month's.

----------


## bananana

> it says on the trx website that it "regrows hair in nearly 9/10 men & women" Really? where the hell are they? They aint on BTT..and it hasn't regrown ONE hair on my head in 15 month's.


 yeah, I agree. I really havent heard anybody online boasting how they got those numbers trx company stated.

----------


## Jcm800

> yeah, I agree. I really havent heard anybody online boasting how they got those numbers trx company stated.


 Honestly, I've given them the benefit of the doubt for too long. Ulanude will be along to defend the product shortly. I can honestly say it's useless, I consider myself a veteran user now, wish I could praise it, I can't.

----------


## UK_

> it says on the trx website that it "regrows hair in nearly 9/10 men & women" Really? where the hell are they? They aint on BTT..and it hasn't regrown ONE hair on my head in 15 month's.


 I didnt bother trying it, I remember in 2010/2011 I just couldnt wrap my head around the concept - and there was just something about Whitfield I couldnt stand.

Im at the doctors next week, going to get bloodwork done before I take the Fin plunge, I want to know my baseline T, DHT, Estradial, Prolactin etc etc levels before I take the first pill.

----------


## Jcm800

> I didnt bother trying it, I remember in 2010/2011 I just couldnt wrap my head around the concept - and there was just something about Whitfield I couldnt stand.
> 
> Im at the doctors next week, going to get bloodwork done before I take the Fin plunge, I want to know my baseline T, DHT, Estradial, Prolactin etc etc levels before I take the first pill.


 I remember you venting back then, I knew you were right just wanted to try it and see, lesson learnt.

How did you go about getting the bloods appt? Nhs ya?

----------


## Jcm800

Are you having to pay for your bloods UK?

----------


## bananana

Hi guys, this is not exactly on topic, but I have to say I see some great changes while using divine herbal oil. I dont think we have a topic for that anyway. 

So, I'm using it twice per week and I see much less hair under shower - like 70% less, also itch has 99% disappeared. I must say, this works! 

Of course I see no regrowth yet, but I plan to stick with this so we shall see in future what happens. Maybe the important factor is dermarolling the scalp before use. 

Anyways, I think I'm on 9 month mark for MSM/vit c, things are as usual, BUT I havent seen any regrowth from MSM alone, on the good side - I think I'm maintaining, and that alone is a pretty big deal to me.

To tell you the truth guys, I think going to go to dr nigam on a HM session, when he improves his technique further this year. I've believed in him since start, now I see more and more evidence. With a bit of luck it might turn my diffuse NW3V to a solid NW2.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Has anyone noticed their hair color becoming lighter with MSM/vit c?

----------


## Jcm800

Not really sizzling, I do notice my body odour is less than favourable since being on this tho, have you noticed that?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

You mean an odor that cant be covered by deoderant? I havent really noticed anything, my deodorant seems to do the job.

----------


## Jcm800

Deodorant sorts it out, as does washing but I recall gutted saying odour changes on this, sulphur is the reason I think? 

Speaking of gutted, where the hell is he?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Im not sure where gutted is, but I really wish he could come back and chime in.

Anyways, about MSM, Ive been hearing from other sources that anything taken in large amounts can offset the balance of other things in the body. MSM in particular, I heard that it is a copper, zinc, and molybdenum antagonist, so to keep an eye out on these levels.


Just curious for all MSM/Vit C users. Any systemic side effects being felt by anyone that could be feeling like mineral deficiencies?

----------


## Jcm800

Anyone got any up-dates on this combo? I've lost count of how many pills i've popped (been on it around 11 months) anyway i feel i'm wasting my time, what about anyone else?

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Overall, It's hard to say whether adding msm/vit c has done much. I know that since getting on trx2 2 years ago, I have been able to maintain essentially, which I am grateful for. My hair was getting pretty bad so to able to be on something with 0 side effects has been good for me. 

But I have up and down days, maybe it's cyclic shedding, but overalls have been able to maintain and thicken from where I was 2 years ago.

*forgot to add: been on MSM/vit c since last August, so almost a year

----------


## Jcm800

Interesting that you've maintained sizzlinghairs, downhill spiral for me, glad something is helping you tho..

----------


## TheBadger

> Anyone got any up-dates on this combo? I've lost count of how many pills i've popped (been on it around 11 months) anyway i feel i'm wasting my time, what about anyone else?


 Gave up early last month after about 8 months of taking the stuff. It just wasn't doing anything other than making my hair really dry (an effect that's still persisting, annoyingly. I want to give Nizoral a go for the itch but trying something that's supposed to be drying when your hair is dry anyway sounds like a recipe for disaster). I wasn't really expecting life changing results in that time frame or anything, but it didn't have the slightest effect on the itch either. Not going to deny it may have an effect for some people, but I didn't seem to be one of them. 

Oh well, wasn't really any harm in trying - though I certainly didn't maintain during that time.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Badger, cant remember if you tried trx2 along side msm?

----------


## TheBadger

> Badger, cant remember if you tried trx2 along side msm?


 Nope, just the MSM/Vit-C. Wasn't willing to pay out the kind of money TRX2 costs when it seems so sketchy. Maybe if I had a lot more disposable income, or a lot more people had positive experiences with it, I might have given it a try, but I'm not quite at 'run myself into debt trying anything possible no matter how remote the chances of success' levels of desperation yet.

----------


## Irishamerica

Been on it for about 9 months ...defiantly helps with the itch...might only get a slight itch once a day for a couple of seconds ....if I don't take it for a few days the itch comes back ....when I used to just take niz it would only relieve the itch temporarily ....are people who are using this combo....I only take msm and vit c and use a lemon shampoo with jojobo oil that I added myself ? 

Are other people only use this combo or are your adding any PG2 blockers or dht inhibitors ?

----------


## bananana

Interesting thing I noticed is the main ingredient of solgars "hair, skin and nails" tabs is - msms+vitc!  :Smile: 

Of course solgar is probably the most expensive manufacturer out there, but that tells us there is something in this combo that works.

I'm pleased with how things are going for me (no itch, no oil...) so I'm continuing into my 9th month with the combo.

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> OK so I am a month in and have a few observations.
> 
> Firstly, I think I have recently gone through a shed (especially frontal hairline, as others in this thread seem to have reported). Remember I have never really used anything in the past for hair loss except vitamins etc, so it can't be attributed to dropping anything.
> 
> I put this down to the fact that maybe I was due a shed anyway, but it seemed a bit of a coincidence to be honest....
> 
> Also, I got a terrible itch where I lost ground on my hairline. 
> Maybe my body reacted to the sudden intake of these supplements and needed to adjust, and possibly caused a shed. What do you think of that Gutted? Do you think that could be possible?
> 
> ...


 wow, can't believe I've been on this regime so long looking back at this thread!

Anyway, balding brothers, I have stuck to it religiously (popping all these pills is a daily ritual that had become second nature now).

All I can report is the following: less itch (I think that's purely the tgel to be honest), I feel healthier and more active. Possibly the MSM & multis etc.

Hair wise, never been worse. Natural progression of MPB carries on, and now over a year later my crown is scarce and hairline is very far back. Probably should shave my head now but I actually think I look better with the 'that guy's going bald young' look. Or maybe that's just chickening out. I keep it reasonably short, but just think I'd look shit with a shaved head. Too soft faced/boyish for it in my opinion.

Anyway, my only conclusion is that TRX2 is bullshit, MSM probably does your body some good but certainly not your hair. 

Just thought I'd update to save you guys any money who might be contemplating such a regime. I really gave it a good try.

I'm jumping ship and hitting the dermaroller craze as of tonight.

Cheers.

----------


## Jcm800

Cheers Ticket,  yeah I've been on it well over a year myself, it's a ritual like you say, but if it's helping other people - I don't think it's helped me.. Hair has never been worse.. 

Gutted - where are you? I think you're advice was well intended, but ultimately useless in my case.

----------


## hellouser

> Anyway, my only conclusion is that TRX2 is bullshit, MSM probably does your body some good but certainly not your hair.


 
140+ pages in this thread on MSM/Vit C & TRX2. Incredible how it got this far. I never took this regimen seriously, in fact this is my first time posting in this thread.

There should be a forum named 'Junk' where all usuless treatment thread get moved to.

----------


## Jcm800

> 140+ pages in this thread on MSM/Vit C & TRX2. Incredible how it got this far. I never took this regimen seriously, in fact this is my first time posting in this thread.
> 
> There should be a forum named 'Junk' where all usuless treatment thread get moved to.


 Totally agree with you, I'm partly responsible for the posts myself, wish the TRX2 thread could be locked and deleted, it's a useless product, pure scam.

----------


## fl4va

Pure bullshit.  Someone delete this thread.

----------


## fred970

Seconded, I even tried the MSM/Vit C thing. It didn't hurt me and had some benefits for the state of my skin. But hair wise: nothingness.

----------


## AgainstThis

Yo, ages no talk my brothers-in-balding.

No doubt about it, TRX2 was and is a pure scam. I've been off it for about a year now (Maybe a little more, but I am not even bothered to remember) and just take 3mg MSM and 1mg VitC daily, mostly to stay in the hair-loss junkie loop and because it doesn't really hurt anything.

Surprisingly, I've not lost any more hair since getting on the regime and the NW2.5/3 that I had is healthier and shinier than ever.

This *could* be construed as a sign that it works somewhat, but if it doesn't do it for EVERYONE who tries it, I just think that it's my hair loss's natural progression (as I said in previous threads, it was never really aggressive to begin with). 

At least it's dirt cheap.

Anyhow, take care, stay away from the TRX and be strong.

----------


## Jcm800

It's nothing but a well thought out elaborate plan to make balding men part with cash in the hope they'll regrow their 'second generation of hair'. Pure scam, I'll shoot anyone down who says otherwise. It did nothing, absolutely fck all for me in 15 months. 

As AgainstThis has already said - stay well away.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Well I thought I might chime in. I can understand everyone's frustration here.

I have been on trx2 for a little over 2 years. Msm/vit c for around 10 months.

Before I got on msm/vit c, I think I can say trx2 significantly slowed my loss, and made my hair look healthy and manageable again. Also some thickening but nothing dramatic. I believe my temples/hairline were still receding, but at a significantly slower pace. Since adding msm/vit c I've maybe noticed thickening / better health hair, but can't even say for sure on that.

So it's possible I just have a lot less aggressive hairloss than you guys, or maybe there is some other reason.

Some days I shed more than others and some days ill feel like my hair looks thin, but it varies. Overall though, I can say trx2 has helped me. I'm trying to find ways now to regain my hairline but we all know how difficult that is.

Againstthis, you have absolutely no decline whatsoever at all
Since dropping trx2, nothing, not 1 drop?

Buy the ticket, you have not noticed even 1 drop of increased hair health since trx2?

Jcm, you have absolutely not noticed 1 drop of increased hair health whatsoever from trx2? 

why have I noticed a difference, it's strange..

----------


## Jcm800

I cancelled my subscription about a month ago sizzling, still have two bottles left in a drawer, lost interest in funding bio labs.

I wish I could say it helped me in 15 months. It didn't. 

Not one of us, has regrown a hair from this, and as for their testimonials - pure fantasy, fabricated lies. 

If you feel it's helpful, carry on dude. But I'm adamant it's a well plotted and executed con.

----------


## bananana

> I cancelled my subscription about a month ago sizzling, still have two bottles left in a drawer, lost interest in funding bio labs.
> 
> I wish I could say it helped me in 15 months. It didn't. 
> 
> Not one of us, has regrown a hair from this, and as for their testimonials - pure fantasy, fabricated lies. 
> 
> If you feel it's helpful, carry on dude. But I'm adamant it's a well plotted and executed con.


 thanks for the info.

Im definitely continuing my use of msm/vitc, I feel it helped a great deal with my hair condition, but I must say after 10 months of use, I dont see regrowth, but even slowing down/stopping mpb is a huge step in my opinion.

----------


## Jcm800

> thanks for the info.
> 
> Im definitely continuing my use of msm/vitc, I feel it helped a great deal with my hair condition, but I must say after 10 months of use, I dont see regrowth, but even slowing down/stopping mpb is a huge step in my opinion.


 
Fair enough banana, I was referring to trx2, I'll carry on with the msm tho I don't think that's helping either really, buts it's relatively cheap so I'm okay with that.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

I understand jcm. Aside from regrowing hair, do you feel like it helped on any level of hair health whatsoever? (Thickness, slowing of loss, etc..)

Even one minutia of anything in this regard?

----------


## Jcm800

> I understand jcm. Aside from regrowing hair, do you feel like it helped on any level of hair health whatsoever? (Thickness, slowing of loss, etc..)
> 
> Even one minutia of anything in this regard?


 No I'm afraid not, it didn't appear to help in anyway for me. 

My hair is much worse than when I started trx2. It hasn't arrested my loss or anything, let alone regrowth, that'd be a miracle. 

I wish I could say something positive, well actually the only way I can praise them is their  customer service in my experience was great,  but it would be - it's geared towards extracting cash from us..

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Hm, sorry to hear although I find it a bit strange. I was reading though old posts a out trx2 from ppl on this forum and although there is no mention of regrowing, a large percentage did mention trx2 did help to make hair more thick.

So jcm, it didn't stop your shedding, it didn't show any regrowth, but did your existing hair become any more healthy whatsoever? Did you ever have even a good hair day? 

(Btw, what was your regimen again and what age/Norwood are you?)

----------


## Jcm800

I'm 44 was 42 when I first tried it I think. Heading towards nw3 not a great nw spotter but my hairline is really looking shit these days, and ppl now comment on my crown. Had a spell using minox foam on my crown, that helped ruin my hairline.

----------


## Jcm800

I'm 5 weeks into using keretene retard now also, isn't helping either.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

JCM, if you could humor me for a sec. I know Im reaching here, but did you ever have even decent-good hair days where your hair seemed even **slightly** more healthy than before trx2? Even with the continued loss/thinning, did your hair ever feel even slightly more manageable or healthy at all?

----------


## Jcm800

I may have had better days alternating with bad days, I'm sure I did. But, in that time my crown has started thinning, and family members started commenting on it for the first time. Therfore, I'm certain trx2 hasn't helped me, it hasn't halted my loss, and certainly hasn't regrown anything.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I'm 44 was 42 when I first tried it I think. Heading towards nw3 not a great nw spotter but my hairline is really looking shit these days, and ppl now comment on my crown. Had a spell using minox foam on my crown, that helped ruin my hairline.


 oh wow, that has to suck, but I have to admin I find it a bit amusing that  people are commenting on your crown. Maybe you can try to use CB

----------


## Jcm800

> JCM, if you could humor me for a sec. I know Im reaching here, but did you ever have even decent-good hair days where your hair seemed even **slightly** more healthy than before trx2? Even with the continued loss/thinning, did your hair ever feel even slightly more manageable or healthy at all?


 


> oh wow, that has to suck, but I have to admin I find it a bit amusing that  people are commenting on your crown. Maybe you can try to use CB


 You find it a bit amusing ppl ridicule me for a thinning crown?! 

Well, I hope it doesn't hurt you too much when ppl take the piss out of yours in real life dude. It's not nice..

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Kind of a retarded comment desperate, even if you didn't mean it like that particularly. 

Jcm, I think he was just saying that he finds it amusing because its extremely common to have a thinning crown in your 40s. I feel like it should be completely accepted these days. But even if its just a comment in passing or a mild joke that sh*t sucks, I know.

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks sizzling, I appreciate your response. It's not funny at any age if you still care..

----------


## DesperateOne

> You find it a bit amusing ppl ridicule me for a thinning crown?! 
> 
> Well, I hope it doesn't hurt you too much when ppl take the piss out of yours in real life dude. It's not nice..


 Well the reason why it amused me is because it happened to me, it's no different to when you see someone get hit with something. I just makes you laugh, plain an simple, nothing against you. I know it sucks, but I didn't say it to offend you, oh well, people here are too extreme.

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## Jcm800

> Well the reason why it amused me is because it happened to me, it's no different to when you see someone get hit with something. I just makes you laugh, plain an simple, nothing against you. I know it sucks, but I didn't say it to offend you, oh well, people here are too extreme.


 You like laughing at other people's misery, even if they get hit with something? Whatever floats your boat, hey I'm not extreme, just find your outlook a bit odd, but it's cool, no offence taken, tks for the reply.

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## DesperateOne

> You like laughing at other people's misery, even if they get hit with something? Whatever floats your boat, hey I'm not extreme, just find your outlook a bit odd, but it's cool, no offence taken, tks for the reply.


 that's freaking bullshit, we all know it makes people laugh when you see someone fall or they get hit with a ball. So was I suppose to suppress my laughter? It's like trying to stop a sneeze.

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## Jcm800

You mentioned extreme? Cool down dude, point taken.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

Has anyone noticed increased body hair from the msm/trx2 combo? Specifically on the chest/forearms?

----------


## Jcm800

If I have sizzling I put it down to aging in my case, ironically as we lose hair, we grow it in other worthless places, so if imagine perhaps that's what you're noticing?

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## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> oh wow, that has to suck, but I have to admin I find it a bit amusing that  people are commenting on your crown. Maybe you can try to use CB


 


> Well the reason why it amused me is because it happened to me, it's no different to when you see someone get hit with something. I just makes you laugh, plain an simple, nothing against you. I know it sucks, but I didn't say it to offend you, oh well, people here are too extreme.


 


> that's freaking bullshit, we all know it makes people laugh when you see someone fall or they get hit with a ball. So was I suppose to suppress my laughter? It's like trying to stop a sneeze.


 you are just the worst type of person

lol comparing suppressing a sneeze to going out of your way to inform someone that you find people commenting on his hairloss funny. yes you just couldn't stop yourself from writing it down and then posting it..  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## sizzlinghairs

Was just wondering how many people are still taking 6-9 grams msm daily?

For those who are, do you by any chance notice any calcium deficiency related sides? MSM can be a mild calcium antagonist, but its not that black and white. My knees been starting to hurt a bit, Im 30+ and in gym 4 days a week, so it could be that, but I was looking at my 6-8 grams msm daily as well....

Anyone?

----------


## bananana

> Was just wondering how many people are still taking 6-9 grams msm daily?
> 
> For those who are, do you by any chance notice any calcium deficiency related sides? MSM can be a mild calcium antagonist, but its not that black and white. My knees been starting to hurt a bit, Im 30+ and in gym 4 days a week, so it could be that, but I was looking at my 6-8 grams msm daily as well....
> 
> Anyone?


 I take around 3-4 grams, I dont notice anything unusual.

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## Ginkosama

[Content removed]

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## AgainstThis

3g MSM/1g VitC no sides whatsoever. Nix on the TRX, but as JCM says, if you feel it's helping you and you can afford it, by all means, carry on!

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## Atum

> 3g MSM/1g VitC no sides whatsoever. Nix on the TRX, but as JCM says, if you feel it's helping you and you can afford it, by all means, carry on!


 Vitamin C is super cheap and MSM isn't expensive at all. 
Anyway was on 1g of vit. C before my hair loss started to kick in, so for me it did nothing, can't really tell if MSM is helping, but i think it does nothing special as well.

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## Morrissey

> Hi guys, first and foremost happy new year to all!
> 
> i apologise for not coming back as often as i used to, to answer questions.
> 
> i no longer feel the need to come here as much as i used to. I WILL proide updates on my situation which i will do periodiocailly, (which is more wise than every day or week that some are doing!!, this wont help in any way but make you feel more depressed! it takes time, ALOT of time...)
> 
> I havent read everything since i left the thread but have had a quick read a couple of pages back.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hello, 
I really need to ask you a question - are you still around?!

Thank you

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## bananana

I also ask myself the same question.

PS, I'm like 1.3 years in this regimen, and basically nothing else except divine herbal oil once every week or so.

I have not lost ground, not noticeably at least. 

That is IMO the best result I got from any treatment in the last 5 years (and I've tried SHITLOAD of them).

Itch and oil are completely gone. My hair get oily like on the 5th day after washing, before it was 1 or 2. 

Basically now I'm waiting for the pilox to come out (and prove its efficacy).

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## Morrissey

> I also ask myself the same question.
> 
> PS, I'm like 1.3 years in this regimen, and basically nothing else except divine herbal oil once every week or so.
> 
> I have not lost ground, not noticeably at least. 
> 
> That is IMO the best result I got from any treatment in the last 5 years (and I've tried SHITLOAD of them).
> 
> Itch and oil are completely gone. My hair get oily like on the 5th day after washing, before it was 1 or 2. 
> ...


 What kind of regime are u on? TRX2? 

Does gutted still at this forum?

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## Jcm800

> What kind of regime are u on? TRX2? 
> 
> Does gutted still at this forum?


 Don't bother with TRX2. I speak from over a year's experience using it. It's snake oil. 

Gutted hasn't been  seen for way over a year.  He just vanished without a trace.

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## Pentarou

> Don't bother with TRX2. I speak from over a year's experience using it. It's snake oil. 
> 
> Gutted hasn't been  seen for way over a year.  He just vanished without a trace.


 Gutted probably was a shill account created to promote TRX2 on hair loss forums.

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## Jcm800

> Gutted may well have been a shill account created to promote TRX2 on hair loss forums.


 Maybe. Don't Don't think so tho as he was prolific and posted about many topics, had a high post count.

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## Morrissey

> Gutted probably was a shill account created to promote TRX2 on hair loss forums.


 I really don't think so - as he suggested many times to make your own TRX2 ingredients which is cheaper.

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## Morrissey

> Don't bother with TRX2. I speak from over a year's experience using it. It's snake oil. 
> 
> Gutted hasn't been  seen for way over a year.  He just vanished without a trace.


 Really?! what have you been using for that year with the TRX2? 
is it really not effective to use any kind of natural herbal supplement that also reduce dht like:  "sacred hair growth formula"?
what regime are u on today?

cheers

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## Jcm800

> Really?! what have you been using for that year with the TRX2? 
> is it really not effective to use any kind of natural herbal supplement that also reduce dht like:  "sacred hair growth formula"?
> what regime are u on today?
> 
> cheers


 I was on this msm combo too. For about 18 months, waste of money in my opinion. Been off trx about 5 months and no sudden worsening of hair.. Because it didn't do anything in the first place.

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## fred970

So this was the fad hair loss cure before dermarolling came along.

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## Morrissey

> So this was the fad hair loss cure before dermarolling came along.


 
Hi, what you are you saying then? 
That dermarolling is the answer?

----------


## fred970

No, I was implying that dermarolling is another fad that will probably fade out like this MSM regimen.

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## Morrissey

> No, I was implying that dermarolling is another fad that will probably fade out like this MSM regimen.


 So what are you on? I don't think the darmerolling its a "fade" but just an addition for other treatments and cannot stand by itself. 

Btw, I got a doggy reply from TRX2 customer service about combining their prodcut with some other supplements, quite fishy

----------


## Jcm800

> So what are you on? I don't think the darmerolling its a "fade" but just an addition for other treatments and cannot stand by itself. 
> 
> Btw, I got a doggy reply from TRX2 customer service about combining their prodcut with some other supplements, quite fishy


 Look.. I've wasted hundreds of pounds on trx2.

Steer clear of it..

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## Morrissey

> Look.. I've wasted hundreds of pounds on trx2.
> 
> Steer clear of it..


 
That's a shame, so all that massive forum about trx2, nothing positive then?  I thought that it could be a good additional for a regime of LLLT laser helmet and scalp massages. Do you use any other supplements or you just gave up?

----------


## bigentries

> Maybe. Don't Don't think so tho as he was prolific and posted about many topics, had a high post count.


 Those are the worst kind of posters. The ones with no connection whatsoever but still act like "shills" because they are hopeful, to the point of faking evidence

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## Jcm800

> Those are the worst kind of posters. The ones with no connection whatsoever but still act like "shills" because they are hopeful, to the point of faking evidence


 Yeah maybe, weird how he vanished all  a sudden as well. He spread his word and boom, disappeared.

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## Morrissey

> Yeah maybe, weird how he vanished all  a sudden as well. He spread his word and boom, disappeared.


 Maybe he died

----------


## Jcm800

> Maybe he died


 Maybe.. Obviously ppl do pass away on forums,  hope not , but he may have..

----------


## Morrissey

> Maybe.. Obviously ppl do pass away on forums,  hope not , but he may have..


 Yeah, but as you guys said - he had so many believers in his method...it is quite doggy that one day he just vanished.

Did you find anything better mate? 

I'm taking trx2 3 months with herbal hair growth supplements that contains some dht blockers. On the customers trx2 support they wrote me its fine and even may be more effective, then I found his posts in the forum claiming its bad to combine the both. When I sent to the same person from the customers trx2 service  - he told me that I should use trx2 alone only all a the sudden. What the...?

----------


## Jcm800

> Yeah, but as you guys said - he had so many believers in his method...it is quite doggy that one day he just vanished.
> 
> Did you find anything better mate? 
> 
> I'm taking trx2 3 months with herbal hair growth supplements that contains some dht blockers. On the customers trx2 support they wrote me its fine and even may be more effective, then I found his posts in the forum claiming its bad to combine the both. When I sent to the same person from the customers trx2 service  - he told me that I should use trx2 alone only all a the sudden. What the...?


 Nope,  I just use minox , that's next to useless for me as well. 

Listen, I speak from experience. .You will never ever grow a Morrissey quiff taking trx 2.  They're a shady,  conniving heartless outfit. 

Carry on paying them, I swear in a year you'll wish you had listened to me bud..

----------


## Morrissey

> Nope,  I just use minox , that's next to useless for me as well. 
> 
> Listen, I speak from experience. .You will never ever grow a Morrissey quiff taking trx 2.  They're a shady,  conniving heartless outfit. 
> 
> Carry on paying them, I swear in a year you'll wish you had listened to me bud..


 Well you might be right mate - but this is just a secondary treatment I do. 
I did the Malinak Method (Violet ray and massage )for a year with no success - now I'm trying the new 
Theradome laser helmet with some new massage Technics:  Detumescence and Malinak massage as well as the supplements.  
i want to believe I will be benefited

----------


## Jcm800

> Well you might be right mate - but this is just a secondary treatment I do. 
> I did the Malinak Method (Violet ray and massage )for a year with no success - now I'm trying the new 
> Theradome laser helmet with some new massage Technics:  Detumescence and Malinak massage as well as the supplements.  
> i want to believe I will be benefited


 Wouldn't have any faith in a laser helmet,  and none in trx 2. It's nice to think trx is helping when you take it. You have a glimmer of hope. Sadly reality kicks in when you pass the point where the 'testimonials'  claimed results. And you don't have any.

----------


## Morrissey

> Wouldn't have any faith in a laser helmet,  and none in trx 2. It's nice to think trx is helping when you take it. You have a glimmer of hope. Sadly reality kicks in when you pass the point where the 'testimonials'  claimed results. And you don't have any.


 God you made me depressed now
 I just bought the pricey laser helmet and I read a lot about it and there are many people that reported benefits from good LLLT helmets, obviously depends what kind of helmet and how strong...you might want to read about it before.
I ordered that device as well:   
http://www.ac-reliever.de/
which I believe that is a key for other methods successes, as low blood flow/ stress and tight scalp are the main problems for any products to be beneficial

----------


## Jcm800

> God you made me depressed now
>  I just bought the pricey laser helmet and I read a lot about it and there are many people that reported benefits from good LLLT helmets, obviously depends what kind of helmet and how strong...you might want to read about it before.
> I ordered that device as well:   
> http://www.ac-reliever.de/
> which I believe that is a key for other methods successes, as low blood flow/ stress and tight scalp are the main problems for any products to be beneficial


 It's easy to fall for their sales pitch when you're desperate. I'm being blunt, to help ppl like you. I'm depressed having spent a few hundred on the snake oil myself. 

Can't read the link, it's German? Anyway good luck with the helmet, let us know how it goes..

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> God you made me depressed now
>  I just bought the pricey laser helmet and I read a lot about it and there are many people that reported benefits from good LLLT helmets, obviously depends what kind of helmet and how strong...you might want to read about it before.
> I ordered that device as well:   
> http://www.ac-reliever.de/
> which I believe that is a key for other methods successes, as low blood flow/ stress and tight scalp are the main problems for any products to be beneficial


 Why aren't you taking fin?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> It's easy to fall for their sales pitch when you're desperate. I'm being blunt, to help ppl like you. *I'm depressed having spent a few hundred on the snake oil myself.* 
> 
> Can't read the link, it's German? Anyway good luck with the helmet, let us know how it goes..


 The oxford guy who came up with TRX2 is a bloody genius to be honest.

----------


## Morrissey

> The oxford guy who came up with TRX2 is a bloody genius to be honest.


 So what are you saying? 

I don't want to take those kind of Chemicals - read toם many negative things about them and its not that you will get amazing results with them anyway - not worth it IMO.
Are you on it?

----------


## Jcm800

> The oxford guy who came up with TRX2 is a bloody genius to be honest.


 No really. He's an entrepreneur that's all. Parading as a hairloss guru. He's a shifty con artist.

----------


## sizzlinghairs

> I also ask myself the same question.
> 
> PS, I'm like 1.3 years in this regimen, and basically nothing else except divine herbal oil once every week or so.
> 
> I have not lost ground, not noticeably at least. 
> 
> That is IMO the best result I got from any treatment in the last 5 years (and I've tried SHITLOAD of them).
> 
> Itch and oil are completely gone. My hair get oily like on the 5th day after washing, before it was 1 or 2. 
> ...


 Banana I forgot, are you on trx2 with the MSM/Vit C?

----------


## hellouser

This thread really needs to be locked and/or deleted. It's pure snake oil crap and nobody has got any results. I can't believe this garbage has gone on for such a long time.

----------


## bananana

> Banana I forgot, are you on trx2 with the MSM/Vit C?


 just msm/vitc.

Its not bullshit guys.
I think I stopped it or at least slowed it down by 90%. I havent done any measurements of course, but I'd say situation hasnt got any worse since I started this. Which is a big deal for me.

----------


## Morrissey

> This thread really needs to be locked and/or deleted. It's pure snake oil crap and nobody has got any results. I can't believe this garbage has gone on for such a long time.


 How come you sure about it?  I just wonder...

----------


## hellouser

> How come you sure about it?  I just wonder...


 147 pages of talk with ZERO results. This stuff needs to be scrapped, NOW.

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## Jcm800

Cause it doesn't work. I wasted hundreds of pounds on Trx2 and used in conjunction with Vit C and Msm. Did fck all for me after at least 18 months. Steer clear, if not then waste your time and money.

You'll never ever grow a Morrissey hair do with it.

----------


## fred970

It's funny when you know that even Morrissey suffers from MPB and had several HT's.

But yeah I agree, those kind of threads need to be locked, not taken down though, they should serve as a warning for gullible people.

----------


## Jcm800

> It's funny when you know that even Morrissey suffers from MPB and had several HT's.
> 
> But yeah I agree, those kind of threads need to be locked, not taken down though, they should serve as a warning for gullible people.


 Fair enough, wonder if he takes Finasteride too? 

He sure as hell wouldn't be on this crap.

----------


## bananana

Dont know what to say.. Most of the guys here say it doesnt work - yet a few of us are seeing results.

I have started a thread here I think 2 years ago, with a photo of my awful scalp, by awful I mean oily as hell. There was this thick layer of oil all over the scalp (in the MPB zone) which I couldnt get rid of. And the itch was not bearable. I tried EVERYTHING, no effect. Each time I washed my hair, I'd loose hefty chunks of it. 

Since I've been on msm, the whole thing changed. Oil has disappeared 100%, itch also. I can now go on 10 days without washing my hair and there not a bit of oil and I almost never scratch my scalp. To me - that is huge deal. 

I'm 90% sure this wont grow new hair, at least it hasnt done so for the last 2 years I'm taking it, but i'm very sure this slowed remarkably (or even stopped) my MPB. This is my experience with it.

----------


## Morrissey

> just msm/vitc.
> 
> Its not bullshit guys.
> I think I stopped it or at least slowed it down by 90%. I havent done any measurements of course, but I'd say situation hasnt got any worse since I started this. Which is a big deal for me.


 Without the trx2?

----------


## Jcm800

> Without the trx2?


 Trx won't do anything. Forget it. It's snake oil.

----------


## bananana

> Without the trx2?


 without the trx.

----------


## Jcm800

that trx website reaks of scam, it really does. why did i fall for that sh+t? Please, anyone thinking of trying it - dont. Dont fund those conning bas#ards.

----------


## doke

hi we all got taken in by trx2 but i wonder did we expect too much from a vit, did anyone combine it with topical minoxidil because i tried some trx2 the other day i took four instead of three caps and i used minoxidil, and i got a tingle sensation on the scalp which felt something was happening whether i carry on and trial this im not sure.
Im more interested in the neosil psi peptide which i heard was being trialed again this was a peptide that regrew hair back from nw7 which only needed to be used once a day with nothing else, and could be used a few times a year in cycles im hoping to save some money to buy 400mgs and may add to ru58841 i have premixed from anagen.

----------


## doke

Hold your hats i have just seen some info from hairsite and some say its no better than minoxidil for regrowth and that sucks, so good job i never went ahead and ordered some psi, its confusing because there was a guy on some web site that said it regrew his hair.
This hairloss game is getting nowhere i now wonder if dr klines promox is the best as in the last trials he had 75% success rate and his new trials i have not heard anything yet i do know he has procapil in his promox now.

----------


## Jcm800

Doke I took Trx with Minox all the time I was on it, did nothing, made no difference. Minox just screwed my hairline,  Trx didn't save it from doing that either.. Complete scam.

----------


## doke

thanks jc i am still on ru and minox plus back on dutasteride.

----------


## Jcm800

Cool bud, how are you finding the Duatasteride this time? I'm really getting tempted to order some Proscar and cut it up, getting desperate..

----------


## doke

the only problem is the seman is very watery but other than that no problem, 0.5mg dutas a day inhibits more dht than 5mg finasteride and also it is a dual dht inhibitor which you may already know.
I am also using alpecin double effect shampoo which has saliyic acid in spelt that wrong but you guys know what i mean.

----------


## Jcm800

That Apachi? Is that the coffee based , German shampoo?

If watery semen was the only side of Finasteride it'd be a no brainer for me, I'd be on it yesterday.

----------


## Jcm800

Alpecin * lol damn the autocorrect on my mobile.

----------

