# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments >  Need Help Developing a Regimen Without Fin

## Conpecia

Here we go...

I'm 27 years old with a NW2.5 hairline and a thinning crown. After having used finasteride successfully for 5 years, this past January I developed gynecomastia and had to quit using it. Being on no treatments for 7 months has wreaked havoc on both my hairline and my crown. I'm really starting to worry. A month ago I started minoxidil 5% foam, but it gave me terrible headaches and caused bloating in my face and dark circles beneath my eyes. Having read that minoxidil may age the face, I decided it wasn't worth it. 

Currently I'm just using Nizoral 2x week. I need to develop a regimen that will hold me over until better treatments arrive. If I can just maintain for two or three more years I will be able to reassess the cutting edge treatments and go with something like Histogen, or else get a hair transplant, most likely using Gho's method. That's later. This is now. 

I'm willing to try anything that has worked for you guys. Topicals, shampoos, vitamins, pills, spells, sacrifices of virgins... ANYTHING. I understand that fin is the most essential treatment, but I can't use it at the moment, if ever again. If you were in my position, which treatments would you add to your regimen?

I'm considering the following:

Saw Palmetto
Toco-8
Equol (Folexen?)
RU (though I've read this may cause gynecomastia as well)
OC (gonna wait a while on this to see results of others)
Keratene Shampoo
Spiro
2% Minox foam (sides wont be as harsh perhaps?)

Any additions and advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everyone for reading and to those who respond.

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## BaldinLikeBaldwin

bim,CRTH2 antagonis,ascj9 myristate rum,AHK-Cu peptide-copper complex, rogaine , SWAMI RAMDEV PATANJALI KESH KANTI HAIR CLEANSER SHAMPOO,Herbal Chumket Hair Re-Growth Shampoorevita shampoo, SBM Indra Neeli Hair Oil , SBM Pure Leaf Juice Shampoo(Thiruthaali,swanson hair revitaling formula,msm, garlic pills, mens vitamin,bhringaraj oil ,Silica complex, glutathione, blck caster oil,garlic pills, aloe vera, almond oil,garlic oil, sesa oil,parachute ayur vedic hair oil, neosh101? 


(c) lilpauly


(I removed finasteride and dutasteride)

Edit: In addition to the treatments you already mentioned.

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## 25 going on 65

> Here we go...
> 
> I'm 27 years old with a NW2.5 hairline and a thinning crown. After having used finasteride successfully for 5 years, this past January I developed gynecomastia and had to quit using it.


 My understanding is that gyno requires surgery unless it's caught in very early stages, but once it's been removed, can't you take meds to prevent it whilst staying on fin?

Also I believe your chances of side effects on spiro will be much higher than on fin or dut, so you may want to avoid that one.

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## briandesigns

I keep seeing OC... what is this exactly? 

as to your regime, theres this guy over at hairlosshelp called The Natural. He apparently doesnt use any synthesized drugs and only use natural remedies. He experimented with lots of stuff over the years and this is what he puts up as his signature:

The Natural Internal Regimen:

vitamin C
aged garlic extract (vitamin B, GABA)
curcumin
cayenne pepper (ginger)
algae extract


supposedly he's able to maintain his hair for many years using that.

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## Conpecia

> My understanding is that gyno requires surgery unless it's caught in very early stages, but once it's been removed, can't you take meds to prevent it whilst staying on fin?
> 
> Also I believe your chances of side effects on spiro will be much higher than on fin or dut, so you may want to avoid that one.


 The gyno meds are anti-estrogen stuff not really intended for use to prevent gyno. I have read that fin-induced gyno goes away on its own after fin is stopped. This appears to be correct. There were also sexual sides that started developing. Just gonna get away from fin for a while. I'll also strike spiro off the list.

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## Conpecia

> I keep seeing OC... what is this exactly? 
> 
> as to your regime, theres this guy over at hairlosshelp called The Natural. He apparently doesnt use any synthesized drugs and only use natural remedies. He experimented with lots of stuff over the years and this is what he puts up as his signature:
> 
> The Natural Internal Regimen:
> 
> vitamin C
> aged garlic extract (vitamin B, GABA)
> curcumin
> ...


 
Here's the OC thread:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8329


I'll check out the natural stuff. Thanks.

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## UK_

> Saw Palmetto
> Toco-8
> Equol (Folexen?)
> RU (though I've read this may cause gynecomastia as well)
> OC (gonna wait a while on this to see results of others)
> Keratene Shampoo
> Spiro
> 2&#37; Minox foam (sides wont be as harsh perhaps?)
> 
> Any additions and advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everyone for reading and to those who respond.


 Well one ingredient rings alarm bells & that's spiro, which is a powerful anti-androgen with a high rate of systemic absorbtion, but it works well, can halt further progression in most of its users.

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## worried

> Well one ingredient rings alarm bells & that's spiro, which is a powerful anti-androgen with a high rate of systemic absorbtion, but it works well, can halt further progression in most of its users.


 If the systemic absorbtion is high then it means you can have side effects ?
It is a powerful anti androgen but i dnt know why only limited number of people taking it and i have not read any negative views

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## 8868alex

I understand the reasons why people would refrain from using Propecia and that is is a personal decision for each individual. However, the fact remains that the only way to effectively block DHT (and thus address the primary cause for mpb at this moment in time) is to use some form of it. These other therapies being discussed serve only as an adjunct. Aside from Propecia, Minoxidil and possibly Laser Therapy (the last one often prompts much debate) you could consider PRP, depending on where you are based. I know it's not exactly comprehensive, but I believe this is the bottom line.

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## Conpecia

> I understand the reasons why people would refrain from using Propecia and that is is a personal decision for each individual. However, the fact remains that the only way to effectively block DHT (and thus address the primary cause for mpb at this moment in time) is to use some form of it. These other therapies being discussed serve only as an adjunct. Aside from Propecia, Minoxidil and possibly Laser Therapy (the last one often prompts much debate) you could consider PRP, depending on where you are based. I know it's not exactly comprehensive, but I believe this is the bottom line.


 PRP is an avenue I haven't considered. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm not so sure that fin is the only way to block DHT. I've read a lot of success stories about RU, and equol seems very promising, just to name a couple under-the-radar alternatives. But propecia is tried and true, and it worked for me for many years. I'd be content to stay on it but for the sides.

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## Tracy C

> Also I believe your chances of side effects on spiro will be much higher than on fin or dut, so you may want to avoid that one.


 It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro.  It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.

Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride.  These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.

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## Conpecia

> It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro.  It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.
> 
> Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride.  These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.


 Interesting. Unfortunately, I am not among the class of "these guys" to which you are referring. I am among the class of guys who have actually experienced *severe* sexual/reproductive system side effects (chronic epididymitis) as well as gynecomastia, brain fog, decreased libido, watery you-know-what, etc. from finasteride. 

You are implying that because finasteride is FDA approved, it is somehow more logical for me to continue taking a drug that is hurting me than to consider other options the side effects of which are UNKNOWN, meaning there is a possibility that I will respond to them better. You then imply I am not 'sound of mind' for exploring these other options. What should I do then, Aristotle? You tell me. 

I know the worth of finasteride and I am looking for a treatment with equal effectiveness that does not carry the same side effect footprint. Therefore I am coming to the community to receive better information so I can make a rational, safe decision, as people with so-called sound minds do. If you are not capable of providing that information, that's fine, but I will ask that you please not wrongfully classify me then attack my attempts to learn more.

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## Tracy C

> You are implying that because finasteride is FDA approved, it is somehow more logical for me to continue taking a drug that is hurting me...


 I am not implying that in any way shape or form.  Learn how to read.

Don't take my posts personally.  I am not talking to you, I am talking to everybody.  If you got side effects from Finasteride, don't use it.  Those who are experimenting with a different treatment with an unproven safety profile are foolish.  Especially those who are doing so because they are afraid to try Finasteride.

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## mlao

> It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro.  It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.
> 
> Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride.  These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.


 I don't want to add fuel to this fire but I think Conpecia is referring to topical Spiro not oral Spiro which does not have the same systematic absorption.
 As a matter of fact I think Dr. John Crisler even sells a 5% spiro with 2% keto topical on his site. I'm not recommending it I'm just illustrating a point that a doctor who is very anti-propecia but very pro male health uses it as a substitute for fin. 
I'm not a big believer in non proven treatments but sometimes that's the only hope some guys have when the approved meds aren't appropriate.

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## neversaynever

> I am not implying that in any way shape or form.  Learn how to read.
> 
> Don't take my posts personally.  I am not talking to you, I am talking to everybody.  If you got side effects from Finasteride, don't use it.  Those who are experimenting with a different treatment with an unproven safety profile are foolish.  Especially those who are doing so because they are afraid to try Finasteride.


 I can understand what you are saying, but I think its easy for you to say, sorry if that sounds childish.

Calculate the risks, although forums are not an ideal way to profile a drug because the happy people dont really use forums so much. There is a damn good chance fin will cause sexual side effects. Worst case scenario, lets call it a 50/50 chance. The reason the risks are high are obvious, its systematic, and the body reacts to a drop in DHT in various ways (which are not pleasing). That is because it effects serum DHT, plain and simple. Now onto something like RU, logically, it makes sense that it would be safer because it doesnt change serum DHT levels, and mostly goes straight to follicles. There is some systemic absortion, but it has a much much lower half life than fin. People may see fin like side effects at very high doses, which people shouldnt be using anyway.

Now, there are people taking PGD2 blocks (orally i believe), that is dangerous. Maybe its not, but its a hell of a risk if theyre dosing up. We still dont know the full function of PGd2 throughout the body. HOWEVER, i can think of one company testing OC orally for asthma with no sides, its very promising. That is what is urging people to take it, but Ive yet to see any info about dosage in regards to hair.

Things like copper, can be toxic at high levels. But is being used in commercially available treatments out there, albeit in small doses.

Then there is equol, which obviously effects serum DHT levels. Im very curious about it, but also wary as so far I've only seen studies on rats! Thats a big no for me. Noone has yet to convince me as to WHY it wont have the same sides as fin. But there are people taking it, and dosing up big time.

None of these things should be considered lightly, and generally people are looking to the hopefully near future with Histogen and others. 

I can understand what you're saying, but we take risks everyday in life. This is just one more calculated risk. I would also say you are not of sound mind, visiting this forum everyday and repeating yourself endlessly about fin and minox to make yourself feel better. To me, that is mad. Trying these other treatments is a different kind of madness.

Now, consider this (and no offence). As a woman, lets say youre in your 20s. You are offered a drug that saves your hair but there is a chance it can make you infertile, and there is a slight smaller chance it could take years to be normal again. Also a tiny chance you would never be able to breast feed, unless you have some kind of surgery to fix it. Would you do it?

Im considering fin, but also considering other non oral DHT treatments. And im very interested in things like AHK copper combined with minox.

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## 25 going on 65

> It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro.  It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.
> 
> Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride.  These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.


 Well in this case I think he isn't familiar with all these treatments which is why he's asking about them here. I think he's making a wise choice in doing that rather than just jumping on some new meds without doing his research first

It's guys who make their first post on hair loss forums saying "my experience after 3 years on oral spiro" who would really blow my mind!

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## MrBlonde

I am in the same boat as the OP.  Stressed and constantly worrying about my thinning hair but looking for something that wont mess up another part of my body.

I appreciate your advise Tracy and have no doubt you are more experienced in this area than me but I'm not going to start a treatemnt to stop one problem only to start another more serious problem in another area.

I won't consider anything else other than natural stuff like Toco8 right now and it will possibly cost me a lot of hair opposed to being on Fin but there is now way I'm dicking around with my pecker (ba dum dum tiss, I'm here all week).

The funny thing is I have started my own vitiman reigem.  I'm not sure if its doing much up top.  I still see two or three hairs on the pillow in the morning and some fall out if I run a comb or my fingers through my hair but I am constantly feeling fantastic downstairs.  Amazingly senestive feeling erections.  

I do a lot of excercise, including weights and running and I dont sleep very well with my insomnia.   I would often go through cycle of crap libido.  I would still get hard morning and night but it was a lifeless and pleasure free erection and climax.  I had no idea how long it would last when it struck, sometimes a month and then you'd get maybe a week of sensitivity only to return to sex being a chore due to pleasureless climaxes, it was not watery or anything like I hear about fin, just lifeless....

.... but since I stared the vitman cycle I feel amazing in that department all the tie and my sleeping has improved.  I cant wait to see my girlfriend next weekend.  I hope she is ready for a serious workout  :Big Grin:

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## Tracy C

> I don't want to add fuel to this fire but I think Conpecia is referring to topical Spiro not oral Spiro which does not have the same systematic absorption.


 If I were a guy there is no way I would even touch Spiro.






> There is a damn good chance fin will cause sexual side effects.


 The legitimate data does not support that in any way shape or form.  Maybe it is higher than Merck claims, but it is obvious that it is not as high as the fear mongers are claiming.  Then there is also the very strong evidence that much of this is psychosomatic.  You can ignore the data all day long but ignoring that data does not change what that data says.  It just is what it is.

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## UK_

> Then there is also the very strong evidence that much of this is psychosomatic.  You can ignore the data all day long but ignoring that data does not change what that data says.  It just is what it is.


 Reduced sperm count psychosomatic?  How does that work?

Gynecomastia psychosomatic?  How does that work?

Also... where is the _'strong evidence'_?  Because from what I can see on propeciahelp, there's more clinical attention surrounding ACTUAL sides as opposed to psychosomatic sides.

While some forms of ED can be psychogenic, those that are experiencing such phenomena usually still encounter nocturnal and morning erections, however PFS sufferers have absent morning & nocturnal erections & significantly reduced sensitivity.

The body will also upregulate androgen receptors in light of your attempts to manage your own endocrine system.

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## Tracy C

Do you bother to actually read what I write?  No, obviously you don't.  If you are not going to bother to read the whole thing, don't respond.

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## UK_

> Do you bother to actually read what I write?  No, obviously you don't.  If you are not going to bother to read the whole thing, don't respond.


 That's what you say to everyone that argues against your garbage useless comments: _ "you didnt read what I wrote"... "you didnt get what I said"_

What's there to get? LOL you clearly stated there's STRONG EVIDENCE that a lot of the sides are psychosomatic...

If you were informed about MALE sexual dysfunction you'd know that absence of morning and nocturnal erections are NOT consistent with psychogenic ED -

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## Maradona

Your best bet is RU.

Mine is too.

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## neversaynever

> If I were a guy there is no way I would even touch Spiro.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The legitimate data does not support that in any way shape or form.  Maybe it is higher than Merck claims, but it is obvious that it is not as high as the fear mongers are claiming.  Then there is also the very strong evidence that much of this is psychosomatic.  You can ignore the data all day long but ignoring that data does not change what that data says.  It just is what it is.


 It is higher than merck claim, not sky high but high enough to make me not want to risk it

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## neversaynever

> Do you bother to actually read what I write?  No, obviously you don't.  If you are not going to bother to read the whole thing, don't respond.


 Everything with you is by the book.

Some people driving under the speed limit, some people cruise the limit, some people like to over take.

It can be great to be by the book, but other times we need to be more open, because the book is sometimes wrong. We have examples of this all around us, everyday.

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## UK_

> It is higher than merck claim, not sky high but high enough to make me not want to risk it


 A good decision IMO - you can always shave it and still have a normal life/sex drive... trust me... if you end up with PFS hair loss will be the least of your worries...

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## Conpecia

Tracy, I find it difficult to believe that I am just unluckily part of some tiny minority of men who get these sides from fin. I just responded to another thread about a guy who is getting gyno from propecia. The forums are riddled with men complaining about ED and watery semen, lack of a sex drive, etc. The sides are higher than what Merck claims. Unless you perform the studies yourself, you know nothing more than anyone else here. People do not have time to waste complaining about sexual side effects in baldness forums if they do not experience them. This isn't some hoax. Wake up. Your constant defense of finasteride approaches blind faith, and if you continue attempting to disregard and quiet those of us who have experienced these sides you may very well endanger others, as there is a greater chance they will not believe us. The sides are real and worse than what Merck claims. I would never in a million years have taken fin if I knew I was going to have chronic epididymitis for 7 months and counting. Again, wake up.

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## worried

Back to the topic please... I also want to develop a regimen without fin 
thanks

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## UK_

> Tracy, I find it difficult to believe that I am just unluckily part of some tiny minority of men who get these sides from fin. I just responded to another thread about a guy who is getting gyno from propecia. The forums are riddled with men complaining about ED and watery semen, lack of a sex drive, etc. The sides are higher than what Merck claims. Unless you perform the studies yourself, you know nothing more than anyone else here. People do not have time to waste complaining about sexual side effects in baldness forums if they do not experience them. This isn't some hoax. Wake up. Your constant defense of finasteride approaches blind faith, and if you continue attempting to disregard and quiet those of us who have experienced these sides you may very well endanger others, as there is a greater chance they will not believe us. The sides are real and worse than what Merck claims. I would never in a million years have taken fin if I knew I was going to have chronic epididymitis for 7 months and counting. Again, wake up.


 Tracy is clueless.  The sides associated with propecia are real.

We need a better alternative to blocking androgens & screwing up our brains.

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## Maradona

> Tracy is clueless.  The sides associated with propecia are real.
> 
> We need a better alternative to blocking androgens & screwing up our brains.


 did you get ****ed by propecia too bro?

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## 25 going on 65

lol this again. Balding will have a greater impact on your sex life than finasteride in 90+ &#37; of cases unless you're an old man. For those who get sexual side effects, this is obviously not the case.
Instead of rehashing this argument for 10 pages, for the thousandth time, and seeing it end the exact same way it always does....maybe some of the full-time BTT researchers can actually aid this poor guy in building a fin-free regimen that might help him. It will involve experimental, potentially unsafe (often ineffective) treatments, but it's his business to weigh the risks and benefits and make a personal choice for himself.
Minox and keto can help. I guess equol and RU can be effective if we're going by forum anecdotes, but I don't know how to get reliable/pure sources? There's also a particular saw palmetto complex that might help as an adjunct treatment though it won't maintain hair by itself....I forget which complex but someone can hopefully link to it.
Also, not really an MPB treatment but I notice less shedding and better hair texture when I stopped using SLS & ALS on my scalp. These days I just use keto at the start of the week, glycerin soap in the middle of the week, and running water for the rest of the washes. Hair looks better and surprisingly the scalp is staying cleaner with this approach.

Edit: isn't there also some stuff that starts with "CB" that might be promising? It's been posted about in the "cutting edge" section of the forum.

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## Tracy C

> Everything with you is by the book.


 When it comes to discussions about Finasteride, that is all I have to go on.  I have nothing else.  Sometimes the interpretations of an outside observer is needed, especially with so much fear mongering going on.  I have no BIAS.  I have no reason to interpret the data one way or the other.  I read the data and it says what it says.  It just is what it is.  I know you guys don't like it but evidence does not lie.

Not once did I say that _ALL_ instances of negative sexual side effects are psychosomatic - as implied by UK_.  Yes UK_, you did not read what I wrote.  You read _into_ what I wrote and interpreted it the way you did just so you could try to start an argument.  Now go away.

The safety profile of RU and those other grey market treatments have not been adequately and appropriately established.  Jumping on this bandwagon is foolish and reckless.  Many of you guys are going to be very sorry you did that.

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## 25 going on 65

> The safety profile of RU and those other grey market treatments have not been adequately and appropriately established.  Jumping on this bandwagon is foolish and reckless.  Many of you guys are going to be very sorry you did that.


 Fair warning there. We actually don't know what the long-term effects of these experimental treatments are, and using topicals does not necessarily mean more safety.
Bottom line, using this stuff is putting yourself at an unknown level of risk.

That said, I think the OP is aware of this, and I understand the desperation to keep one's hair....if I couldn't tolerate fin I would probabl;y be looking into the same possibilities I'm sorry to say.

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## Tracy C

> There's also a particular saw palmetto complex that might help as an adjunct treatment though it won't maintain hair by itself....I forget which complex but someone can hopefully link to it.


 There are many brands that make the exact same blend but this is just one of them.



http://www.naturesbounty.com/PRODUCT/006052

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## clandestine

> There are many brands that make the exact same blend but this is just one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.naturesbounty.com/PRODUCT/006052


 https://www.google.ca/search?sugexp=...o+gynecomastia

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## Tracy C

Do you guys actually believe you are going to find something that doesn't have possible sexual side effects?  You are not going to.

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## lilpauly

i would consider asc j9, ru, rum, equa;, proxiphen, ahk, cb. topicals are good for targeting hairlines.

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## Conpecia

> Your best bet is RU.
> 
> Mine is too.


 I was told that RU may cause gyno. Any info on that? If I have to go with something other than fin at this point it will probably be Folexen over RU, but we'll see... I'm just not comfortable with vehicles and all that stuff. Folexen is already good to go; just take the pill. Also they claim no fin-like sides.

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## Conpecia

> i would consider asc j9, ru, rum, equa;, proxiphen, ahk, cb. topicals are good for targeting hairlines.


 I'll check this stuff out. Thanks man. I'm envious of your insane regimen, hopefully it continues to work for you with no sides. Judging from your latest pics I'd say just focus on maintaining. Your hair looks great.

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## Conpecia

I'm interested in OC and Equol at higher doses. Several people are trying these and I'll monitor their results for the next few months and see what happens. My current regimen is shaping up to be this:

Nizoral 2&#37;
Keratene Shampoo (via clandestine)
Tocomin Suprabio
Biotin
Folexen
Curcumin
Saw Palmetto
Aged Garlic Extract
Cayenne Pepper (Ginger)
Algae Extract

The extracts and natural stuff are part of a guy's regimen on ************. He calls himself... wait for it... The Natural. 

Any feedback on this regimen? Should I cut stuff out? Add stuff? As always, thanks for any input. Feeling a lot better now that I see some other options.

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## Conpecia

> Do you guys actually believe you are going to find something that doesn't have possible sexual side effects?  You are not going to.


 That isn't the issue. The issue is can we find something that doesn't realize those side effects in me and others like me. There is a difference between possible and actual.

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## neversaynever

> When it comes to discussions about Finasteride, that is all I have to go on.  I have nothing else.  Sometimes the interpretations of an outside observer is needed, especially with so much fear mongering going on.  I have no BIAS.  I have no reason to interpret the data one way or the other.  I read the data and it says what it says.  It just is what it is.  I know you guys don't like it but evidence does not lie.
> 
> Not once did I say that _ALL_ instances of negative sexual side effects are psychosomatic - as implied by UK_.  Yes UK_, you did not read what I wrote.  You read _into_ what I wrote and interpreted it the way you did just so you could try to start an argument.  Now go away.
> 
> The safety profile of RU and those other grey market treatments have not been adequately and appropriately established.  Jumping on this bandwagon is foolish and reckless.  Many of you guys are going to be very sorry you did that.


 I think the chances of major side effects on fin are exagerrated on forums, because of the very nature of forums. Though they are higher than what merck claims.

However, you simply dont understand how scary it is almost decide between your sex life and hair. Fin was tested properly for safety and to this day we are still learning new things.

I dont think RU will leave many guys very sorry they did it, though there are other substances that make me think people shouldnt be using high doses and taking orally.

If histogen launch into phase 3 with fire in their bellies next year, we know exactly how long we have to stay on these chemicals. Whether it is fin, RU or whatever.

These are calculated risks, but desperate guys, and I am one of them  :Wink: 

1. Keep your scalp clean (shampoo)
2. Lower DHT levels and keep DHT away from receptors
3. Add stimulants such as minox and AHK (NOT past 5&#37 :Wink: .
4. Complete diet change, and include things like Biotin.
5. Stay positive. I have a feeling that worrying about sides endlessly might bring them on. In a minority of users.
6. Address inflammation with oils.

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## worried

what do you think abt EMU Oil ?

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## Conpecia

neversaynever, what oils would you recommend? As for growth stimulants, do you know anything about the sides for AHK? Minox at 5% made my face bloat and I read it can age the face. If I go bald my face is all I got going for me, can't risk pruning it up. Thanks for the feedback. I agree with the worrying comment too. Once I establish this regimen I'm taking a vacation from BTT until October.

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## neversaynever

> neversaynever, what oils would you recommend? As for growth stimulants, do you know anything about the sides for AHK? Minox at 5% made my face bloat and I read it can age the face. If I go bald my face is all I got going for me, can't risk pruning it up. Thanks for the feedback. I agree with the worrying comment too. Once I establish this regimen I'm taking a vacation from BTT until October.


 Im no expert mate. AHK is so vague. I think its dangrous to use copper at high doses. Its important to take zinc when on copper. But too little AHK will do nothing. There was a study that shows 2.5% was effective, ive read no reports of side effects. I would be inclined to do minox everyday and AHK every other day. Have you tried 2% minox?

Every single chemical has side effects, especially if over used. What we're doing is taking calculated risks here...

Im in no position to dish out advice, especially with these experimental treatments, so please take my plan with a pinch of salt...

>Fin (yep! I think I'll just see how i tolerate it. Equol might be effective too though).
> RU
> 5% minox
> 2.5% AHK every other day
> Nizoral 2 or 3 times a week
> Biotin
> Emu oil (does help inflamation and is absorbed into the skin easily).

From my research, its important to be careful using emu oil with other chemicals. You do not want other chemicals mixing into emu oil because this oil penerates the skin very easily, and it could lead to more side effects because more chemicals are getting into your blood.

Im getting closer, but not 100% decided. Thats all I can say for now.

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## worried

> I think the chances of major side effects on fin are exagerrated on forums, because of the very nature of forums. Though they are higher than what merck claims.
> 
> However, you simply dont understand how scary it is almost decide between your sex life and hair. Fin was tested properly for safety and to this day we are still learning new things.
> 
> I dont think RU will leave many guys very sorry they did it, though there are other substances that make me think people shouldnt be using high doses and taking orally.
> 
> If histogen launch into phase 3 with fire in their bellies next year, we know exactly how long we have to stay on these chemicals. Whether it is fin, RU or whatever.
> 
> These are calculated risks, but desperate guys, and I am one of them 
> ...


 What type of diet do u suggest?
Dont you think minox and AHK are only growth stimulants and the hairs grown by them would be only for short period of time

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## neversaynever

> What type of diet do u suggest?
> Dont you think minox and AHK are only growth stimulants and the hairs grown by them would be only for short period of time


 By diet i mean just a very healthy diet. Zero junk food. It will probably make no difference at all, because the MPB mechanism has already started. But what harm can it do?

People say that as soon as your stop minox, you lose the hair. If I grow hair, i wont change anything until someone like histogen hit the market...

SO, a short period of time, might just be enough. Problem is everyone is so different. Some people see no improvement, some people lose hair, some people maintain, others regrow vellus hairs, others manage to turn those vellus hairs into full terminal hairs, especially in the vertex and back. Im quite happy if just save the vertex and back.Regrowth is a bonus.

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## UK_

> what do you think abt EMU Oil ?


 God help us.

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## Jcm800

> God help us.


 ^^^^Pmsl  :Big Grin:

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## 25 going on 65

> By diet i mean just a very healthy diet. Zero junk food. It will probably make no difference at all, because the MPB mechanism has already started. But what harm can it do?


 I agree diet probably makes no real impact on the MPB process, but I do think it can have a noticeable cosmetic impact on your existing hairs. Healthier, more lustrous looking hair can sometimes help disguise MPB a bit.

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## worried

> God help us.


 Dnt you u think emu oil is good for hairs ?

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## Conpecia

Neversaynever, I would def get on fin. It worked for me for about 5 years, stopped my baldness dead in its tracks and even grew back most of my thin spot up top. That's why I'm so crushed that out of nowhere I got nailed with these sides. If all else fails I might go to .25 mg a week of fin combined with 2&#37; minox and of course Nizoral. I'm literally getting desperate, looking thinner and thinner by the week. It's so true that a receding hairline and thinning hair makes you look so much older. Suddenly people call me "Sir" everywhere I go; that wasn't happening this time last year... 

I've bitched about this a million times but it just sucks that we're right at the edge of some really good treatments, possibly a cure, and we have absolutely no clue when anything will be released. Kids born after 2000 will probably never know baldness. I'm really starting to fear that without drastic measures I'm going to be slick bald by the time Histogen or whatever arrives in 2017, possibly beyond help. And sorry, I'm not gonna go down like that. I have a very thick donor region of dark hair and I will use every bit of it I can before I go slick. I pray to the gods that Gho is legit and his technique gets picked up in the U.S. by 2015. Or OC and prostaglandin inhibition works. Or Equol at high doses works. There are so many ****ing options. Something is gonna work in the next two or three years. Those of you who are in my position: all we need to do is god damn maintain!

(sorry for the rant; really getting pissed about this)

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## Maradona

> Neversaynever, I would def get on fin. It worked for me for about 5 years, stopped my baldness dead in its tracks and even grew back most of my thin spot up top. That's why I'm so crushed that out of nowhere I got nailed with these sides. If all else fails I might go to .25 mg a week of fin combined with 2&#37; minox and of course Nizoral. I'm literally getting desperate, looking thinner and thinner by the week. It's so true that a receding hairline and thinning hair makes you look so much older. Suddenly people call me "Sir" everywhere I go; that wasn't happening this time last year... 
> 
> I've bitched about this a million times but it just sucks that we're right at the edge of some really good treatments, possibly a cure, and we have absolutely no clue when anything will be released. Kids born after 2000 will probably never know baldness. I'm really starting to fear that without drastic measures I'm going to be slick bald by the time Histogen or whatever arrives in 2017, possibly beyond help. And sorry, I'm not gonna go down like that. I have a very thick donor region of dark hair and I will use every bit of it I can before I go slick. I pray to the gods that Gho is legit and his technique gets picked up in the U.S. by 2015. Or OC and prostaglandin inhibition works. Or Equol at high doses works. There are so many ****ing options. Something is gonna work in the next two or three years. Those of you who are in my position: all we need to do is god damn maintain!
> 
> (sorry for the rant; really getting pissed about this)


 Bro, I would highly recommend trying in RU. If you had such great results with fin, there is no reason as to why RU wouldn't work on you. 

You just have to find a good source of fresh and pure RU and learn how to apply it.


I might have just saved your life. Just follow the RU thread if you have any questions.

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## Conpecia

> Bro, I would highly recommend trying in RU. If you had such great results with fin, there is no reason as to why RU wouldn't work on you. 
> 
> You just have to find a good source of fresh and pure RU and learn how to apply it.
> 
> 
> I might have just saved your life. Just follow the RU thread if you have any questions.


 Hey man, I'm kinda sketched about RU because I asked on the RU thread about potential sides and the first response was it can give you man breasts, which is one of the reasons I got off fin. Is there any reason to think RU will cause me less severe sides than Fin? I was totally going to try it but bailed out after I heard it could give me gyno again. I'll keep it in mind though.

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## Maradona

> Hey man, I'm kinda sketched about RU because I asked on the RU thread about potential sides and the first response was it can give you man breasts, which is one of the reasons I got off fin. Is there any reason to think RU will cause me less severe sides than Fin? I was totally going to try it but bailed out after I heard it could give me gyno again. I'll keep it in mind though.


 It can if your scalp absorbs and goes to your bloodstream. That's why you need to be careful and choose the right vehicle, like the KB solution.

If you see any nipple tenderness then you know bitch-tits are coming to get ya.
But you can always drop the RU and the sides go away and are not permanent like fin.

Tough choices, looks like you are super sensitive to anti-androgens.

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## Conpecia

It's weird because I was on fin forever with no sides then 5 years in they came outta nowhere!

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## Conpecia

Good point about the absorption into the bloodstream. I'll explore the vehicles.

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## lilpauly

I'm adding some items to my regimen lol . I got a haircut and I'm pissed. Adding proxiphen and buying some bimatoprost.

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## Maradona

> I'm adding some items to my regimen lol . *I got a haircut and I'm pissed*. Adding proxiphen and buying some bimatoprost.


 That's why I don't get hair cuts.

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## 25 going on 65

> It's weird because I was on fin forever with no sides then 5 years in they came outta nowhere!


 What sides did you get besides gyno? Did they go away after you quit fin?

I ask because gyno is actually surprisingly common even if you don't use fin.

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## Conpecia

> I'm adding some items to my regimen lol . I got a haircut and I'm pissed. Adding proxiphen and buying some bimatoprost.


 Lemme know how binatoprost goes. High expectations for that stuff.

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## lilpauly

> Lemme know how binatoprost goes. High expectations for that stuff.


 I got great price for it 250 for 6 to 8 month supply

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## Conpecia

> What sides did you get besides gyno? Did they go away after you quit fin?
> 
> I ask because gyno is actually surprisingly common even if you don't use fin.


 I've had chronic epididymitis for the past 7 months too. That's the main reason I had to get off, just kind of embarrassing to talk about. And yeah, the gyno was going away and then I hopped back on fin and back it came. Sucks. 

Gyno is common in 13 year old boys and 50 year old men, not so much in healthy 27 year olds. Unless they screw with their testosterone levels of course...

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## lilpauly

> What sides did you get besides gyno? Did they go away after you quit fin?
> 
> I ask because gyno is actually surprisingly common even if you don't use fin.


 I got gyno from roids! Omg it hurts like hell

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## Conpecia

> I got great price for it 250 for 6 to 8 month supply


 Right on. I'm gonna sit this round out but I'll be following you guys closely. Good luck bro.

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## cleverusername

> I got great price for it 250 for 6 to 8 month supply


 lilpauly, is that the full strength bim you were talking about? what kind of vehicle would it need?

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## 25 going on 65

Never heard of fin causing epididymitis, but even if the cause was something else I guess it would make sense to quit fin when the condition flared up. It definitely sounds like your gyno was fin related though. That really sucks man.




> I got gyno from roids! Omg it hurts like hell


 If it's painful and not just cosmetic you might be able to get insurance to cover the surgery?

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## lilpauly

> Never heard of fin causing epididymitis, but even if the cause was something else I guess it would make sense to quit fin when the condition flared up. It definitely sounds like your gyno was fin related though. That really sucks man.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's painful and not just cosmetic you might be able to get insurance to cover the surgery?


 Mine went away. I didn't get bitch tits but I could feel a small bump if I pressed down on my nipple. It hurt like hell

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## bananana

@ lilpauly

where did you get bimatoprost at that price, and how much of it is there? in ml?

I'm a bit of a diffuse thinner, I suppose it's really hard to apply it all over the scalp (especially given it comes in 3 ml packs).

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## lilpauly

> @ lilpauly
> 
> where did you get bimatoprost at that price, and how much of it is there? in ml?
> 
> I'm a bit of a diffuse thinner, I suppose it's really hard to apply it all over the scalp (especially given it comes in 3 ml packs).


 i got my bim from some1 who had sides with it thats why the prics was so good. its 600ml. i will apply it to the hairline only. he paid 82 dollars per 100 ml.

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## lilpauly

i think a good source to get bim would be trust & we.

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## bananana

> i think a good source to get bim would be trust & we.


 Thanks, I've contacted them and will post here about the price.

You got yourself a great deal, 600 ml is A LOT. This can last more than a year (if not more).

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## bananana

Hi,
I contacted the company and their price is:

"For 400mg, our price is $397 including express courier fee. For 1g, our price is $820including express courier fee."

Wtf, am I missing something?

Your friend bought 100 ml for $82, and they're selling me 400 MILIGRAMS for $400?

Explanation?

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## lilpauly

> Hi,
> I contacted the company and their price is:
> 
> "For 400mg, our price is $397 including express courier fee. For 1g, our price is $820including express courier fee."
> 
> Wtf, am I missing something?
> 
> Your friend bought 100 ml for $82, and they're selling me 400 MILIGRAMS for $400?
> 
> Explanation?


 http://www.melonepharma.com that where he bought the bim from.

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## bananana

> http://www.melonepharma.com that where he bought the bim from.


 thanks, i'll contact them and let you guys know about the price.

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