# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments >  A Grieving Mother's Warning About Propecia

## tbtadmin

A Grieving Mother's Warning About Propecia

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## Winston

Thats a very sad story. My heart goes out to this young mans family.

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## UK_

Christ....

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## RichardDawkins

Impacts (FIN related) are coming closer and closer ...... this is so not good

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## Zao

This is a very sad story indeed, but how can the media or anyone blame this kids death 100% on Propecia? How do we know how depressed he was before he took it? How do we know that he didnt start taking the drug after being depressed about his hair loss and then began reading propeciahelp which can send anyone over the edge. There could have been a multitude of issues that led to this suicide. He had to have been very fragile to begin with, which does not minimize this tragic story, but probably played a big role in the kids death.  When youre 20 years old and depressed your mind can really run away with what you read on the internet. He might have thought that his side effects would never go away based on the stories on propeciahelp. Its so sad because the odds are he would have recovered eventually. Does anyone know if he wrote about suicide on propeciahelp? Did the site owner contact the authorities if he did? This story breaks my heart.

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## the_charger

I think this is his thread on propeciahelp:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/vi...php?f=3&t=1742



Oh man this story is insanely sad...

But like Zao said, how do they think that Propecia is what did it? Even in that thread, he blames Dutasteride more than Propecia. I think it's just because propecia has such a bad rap right now in the media.

He also says he had things like full blown psychosis, a bleeding penis, bleeding perineum and a severe drug problem. It looks like hes had some other severe problems, maybe even from before starting on these drugs. It might be tru that taking the drugs just made the mental problems worse..

i think there is much more to this story than what the video shows. I dont want to disrespect his memory or his family's suffering at all, but it really sounds like he had some severe problems, maybe that were just made worse by these drugs. I dont know..

Zao, members on propeciahelp regularly talk about suicide from what i can see. In this guys posts, he said that he wanted to die multiple times. It sounds like many, many of these guys are suicidal. I hope to god no more choose to take the same path  :Frown:

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## PropeciaVictim

I have read through several of Randy's posts but never communicated with him since he stopped using Propecia Help in 2008, before I had ever taken Propecia.  He did take dutasteride for hairloss (and finasteride) which is also a 5-AR inhibitor like finasteride and saw palmetto.  The drugs are very similar but dutasteride was never approved for hairloss and quietly pulled during clinical trials.

In many of Randy's posts, he states his misery stemmed from the cognitive and psychological effects that were a result of his 5-AR inhibitor use.  I fortunately did not experience the psychological effects in the same way that he did so I won't comment from experience, but many of the men who do describe it as much worse than than the impotence.  There was a period for a few months right after stopping Propecia where I had panic attacks, anxiety, and irrational mood swings for no perceptible reasons, but they subsided after 5 months perhaps due to some kind of partial equilibration.  I may be mistaken, but I think the cognitive effects tend to fade much more often than the sexual effects although for Randy it seems as they lasted 3+ years with no signs of submission.

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## UK_

> I have read through several of Randy's posts but never communicated with him since he stopped using Propecia Help in 2008, before I had ever taken Propecia.  He did take dutasteride for hairloss (and finasteride) which is also a 5-AR inhibitor like finasteride and saw palmetto.  The drugs are very similar but dutasteride was never approved for hairloss and quietly pulled during clinical trials.
> 
> In many of Randy's posts, he states his misery stemmed from the cognitive and psychological effects that were a result of his 5-AR inhibitor use.  I fortunately did not experience the psychological effects in the same way that he did so I won't comment from experience, but many of the men who do describe it as much worse than than the impotence.  There was a period for a few months right after stopping Propecia where I had panic attacks, anxiety, and irrational mood swings for no perceptible reasons, but they subsided after 5 months perhaps due to some kind of partial equilibration.  I may be mistaken, but I think the cognitive effects tend to fade much more often than the sexual effects although for Randy it seems as they lasted 3+ years with no signs of submission.


 Same here, I know Saw Palmetto doesn't do much for hair loss but when I took it I did notice my sex drive improve quite considerably... as for finasteride... I'd never touch the stuff, there are jus wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many forum users out ther ive seen who are taking testosterone therapy after ruining their hormonal balances through using finasteride.

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## Zao

We can all agree that his is a tragic story, but there was obviously a lot more to this. He admits to having a “major” drug and alcohol problem that led to Beriberi syndrome which is so rare  even among very heavy drinkers. 

This is what he writes in  one of his propeciahelp posts
“How many people would describe themselves as moderate/heavy drinkers? I developed Beriberi Syndrome from alcohol use while these symptoms occurred. Once I started getting Thiamin injections the effects got slightly better-- hard to ferret it all out though."

This kid had to have been consuming an enormous amount of alcohol and barley eating any nutritious foods. Symptoms of Beriberi syndrome include
Difficulty walking
Loss of feeling (sensation) in hands and feet
Loss of muscle function or paralysis of the lower legs
Mental confusion/speech difficulties
Psychosis
Pain
Strange eye movements (nystagmus)
Tingling
Vomiting
Awakening at night short of breath
Increased heart rate
Shortness of breath with activity
Swelling of the lower legs
A person with late-stage beriberi may be confused or have memory loss and delusions. The person may be less able to sense vibrations.

I also find this weird, and why didn’t the reporters address this in the story?

“I'm no longer human-- I don't belong here. I'm really hoping this drug kills me so I don't have to do it myself. I don't think my family and friends would ever understand a suicide but if they really knew the meaningless ghostly hell I've decended into then they would understand. 

**** DUTASTERIDE!”

He was taking dutasteride when he said he  had the worst side effects, not propecia.

This is such a tragedy, but do you guys think it's honest to blame propecia for this and why would the media see fit to do so? This makes me really think twice before believing anything I see on the news.

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## PropeciaVictim

> This is such a tragedy, but do you guys think it's honest to blame propecia for this and why would the media see fit to do so? This makes me really think twice before believing anything I see on the news.


 The media oversimplified his background since the average reader would be bored with details on the distinctions between 5-AR inhibitors.  He took dutasteride and finasteride at different chronological times, but they basically all serve the same function in the human body.  It is wise to read the news with a critical mindset, but this report is pretty straight forward.

In many of Randy's posts he made it clear that the effects of 5-ARIs were clearly causing the majority of his grief and trauma.  It really doesn't seem like there is any ambiguity.  His parents, who obviously spoke with him personally, attributed 5ARIs as the main cause.

"Dutasteride erased my "soul". The ONLY positive side of this is that I also don't feel any negative emotions otherwise I would have already killed myself. I will give it more time but I have no reason to exist if this persists."

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## Bakez

So why doesn't this happen to everyone who uses finasteride?

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## KeepTheHair

I honestly can't believe the amount of threads and post about this presently... I took finasteride because I saw a lot of the stuff on spread out post across forums but now the shit is really piling in. If things were like this I never would have gotten on the drug, probably would have been very bald by now. Not sure which is better though?

Every person is going to have separate problems. You can't always blame them and say it wasn't propecia. But it might be the case here. I personally don't know anyone that has any permanent effects from this and I do know if it exists, it is extremely rare. But if it does happen... then it really isn't worth it. A ton of somewhat hairy heads for the destruction of a fews sanity? Not worth it. Hair is not that important... as life goes on we will realize hair... is NOT that ****ing important.

We all care too much about what others think about us instead of just changing our view on the word.


This is all very ****ed up. I don't know what I'd do if I were to get these side effects. I haven't had any so far.


I really wish they would get out there and do a REAL study, with a super gigantic sample size of men so they can do this RIGHT. There will be a lot of people willing to participate I'd guess.

I really don't know what to say.

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## Zao

> I honestly can't believe the amount of threads and post about this presently... I took finasteride because I saw a lot of the stuff on spread out post across forums but now the shit is really piling in. If things were like this I never would have gotten on the drug, probably would have been very bald by now. Not sure which is better though?
> 
> Every person is going to have separate problems. You can't always blame them and say it wasn't propecia. But it might be the case here. I personally don't know anyone that has any permanent effects from this and I do know if it exists, it is extremely rare. But if it does happen... then it really isn't worth it. A ton of somewhat hairy heads for the destruction of a fews sanity? Not worth it. Hair is not that important... as life goes on we will realize hair... is NOT that ****ing important.
> 
> We all care too much about what others think about us instead of just changing our view on the word.
> 
> 
> This is all very ****ed up. I don't know what I'd do if I were to get these side effects. I haven't had any so far.
> 
> ...


 Keepthehair, you know that logically there is no reason to believe that you will ever have any of these side effects. Just because the kid attributed his multiple problems to these medications means nothing. He was already suffering with a very rare, self induced syndrome and obviously continued his dangerous , self destructive behavior while he was taking dutasteride and Propecia. Dont compare yourself to this poor kid. This is a tragic case that could have been prevented with the help of a good support system.  I wish that the owners of propeciahelp would have contacted the authorities back in 2008. Maybe if this kids parents read his posts back then they would have gotten him some help. Very tragic!

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## KeepTheHair

> Keepthehair, you know that logically there is no reason to believe that you will ever have any of these side effects. Just because the kid attributed his multiple problems to these medications means nothing. He was already suffering with a very rare, self induced syndrome and obviously continued his dangerous , self destructive behavior while he was taking dutasteride and Propecia. Dont compare yourself to this poor kid. This is a tragic case that could have been prevented with the help of a good support system.  I wish that the owners of propeciahelp would have contacted the authorities back in 2008. Maybe if this kids parents read his posts back then they would have gotten him some help. Very tragic!


 This is the usual response. While it does make sense... you have to admit that either we are just turning a blind eye to these effects or people are continually wrongly attributing their side effects to a common drug known to cause sexual side effects. It makes sense  that a drug that DOES cause sexual dysfunction can possible cause permanent sexual dysfunction. This DOES make sense.


There is no doubt in my mind about that anymore. The rarity of it though, I don't know. Also, can it be successfully treated? Who knows.


You can only ignore so many of these posts man... There are a ton of them on various forums.

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## Zao

No one is ignoring these posts, but you have to put everything into perspective. This kid suffered from a rare self induced syndrome and took these medications at the same time. He was already mentally screwed up and probably spent a lot of time reading propeciahelp which might have made things even worse for him. If  you really believe that this can happen to you, why not just stop taking Propecia? Youre not having side effects now, so you have nothing to worry about when you stop. If I were so afraid of it I would stop taking it. Its a simple as that. Its your choice, no one is putting a gun to your head to take it. 

These forums have been systematically infiltrated by the same group of  guys who are members of sites like propeciahelp. Many of these posters post on all of the forums under different names, this I am sure of.

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## KeepTheHair

What self induced syndrome? and do u mean by him or his body?

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## Zao

> What self induced syndrome? and do u mean by him or his body?


 Read my second post on this thread.

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## KeepTheHair

Right I read it before also. I apologize for not checking again. 

That is something to consider. 

However, he does state on the propeciahelp as has been quoted on another forum that he had gyno, shrunken ... and all of those effects, very severely.

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## the_charger

I agree this story and many others are very powerful and sobering. But when we look at the whole picture, does that mean they are any more true?

It's still such a huge fact that these problems have never been found in a medical setting. In another thread, a bunch of surgeons were questioned and out of 30,000 patients, not a single one reported any permenant problems. These facts really cant be ignored, and how can we explain these powerful numbers?

These guys are reporting such violent symptoms, I wonder if anyone can explain why people having these problems were never found during all the medical trials over the course of 20 years. There is no way someone like this would be missed during their follow-ups with the test subjects!

thats really what still doesnt make any sense to me, and nobody can give me a good answer. There has to be more trials done, and soon. Ive still not yet seen any conclusive proof any of this is caused by Propecia except for the very powerful stories we keep hearing.

its really clear a lot of guys are suffering terribly.. but without knowing their medical histories or anything like that, how do I personally know propecia caused it? we can only take their word for it right now. the only thing these guys all really have in common that we know of is that they visit propeciahelp!!

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## Sogeking

Oh man, oh man. This is gut-wrenching. My true condolances to the family.
Just watching and reading Randys path to suicide, and about his life. I am truly devastated.
@the_charger
What do you think is mroe scary? The fact that their problems are unrelated to Propecia so any men can get them, or the fact that it is related to Propecia? They certainly haven't done it to themselves. 
I believe it is Propecia, and I am not taking it. Ever.
If you want to, it is your choice.
But whoever asks me about it I am certainly gonna warn them.

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## the_charger

I don't know, really. I know one side has evidence, and the other has none, but thats not to say it's not true. ive read a lot of propeciahelp and guys there are really hopeless, and some posts i see are just insane.. When someone posts there really looking for help, they are told that their problems are probably permanent and people are commiting suicide over it and all this garbage. I think thats making guys in a bad situation a hundred times worse. When you turn a scared, fragile guy into a hopeless one, you have just taken away his reason to live.

But my guess is as good as anyones. This video is very sad, but it doesnt really change anything from before it came out or my feelings about propecia.

I just started propecia and ive been on for almost a month, but I havent had any problems at all. Lots of these guys say they had bad problems from day one, but others say they had been on for like 7 years before having problems. 

One thing is for certain though, I am only 19 and going bald.. pretty badly.. I started at 17 and it's way worse now. For the last 2 years, ive been depressed as hell, unable to focus on my coursework and my relationships with friends and family has suffered too! I know if I dont do something about it, I might even fall into a deep depression.. Honestly im fine taking a risk right now because its affecting my life that much. The last month i've felt great, because im finally taking a step to fix things.

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## Sogeking

@the_charger
I honestly hope that it works for you without any side effects whatsoever.
What I hope for even more is that a treatment comes which is both more effective and safe for use in the near future.

I understand the feeling of slowly loosing hair. But in the end for every guy it is different. I am ready to ride out the shaved head, and wait for future. 
I wish you luck charger. 
And I wish stories like Randys don't happen again. EVER.

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## the_charger

Thank you for the good wishes!

I know im taking a risk, but ive yet to see anything to tell me its a very significant one. But if I have permanent problems after taking it, I only have myself to blame. 

I agree, I think there will be better, safer treatments out soon. We can just all start on those when they are out. 

I hope so too, I lost a friend to suicide 3 years ago. It was hard to deal with, but he had some severe mental problems. This doesnt make the choice right, but I know how depressed my friend was, and in his mind it was the only choice. Life can be cruel sometimes, but I really hope someone gets to the bottom of whats going on with all these guys before any more lives are lost.. And now im almost crying over the memory of my friend and for Randy!

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## Bakez

The thing is yeah it probably *was* the finasteride that pushed him over the edge, but it was his lifestyle and things unrelated to finasteride that meant fin had such an awful effect.

And yes propeciahelp members have basically infiltrated every single hairloss forum, on hairloss-talk the 5 or so main posters are all PFS sufferers who post about it all the time. As an aside there is one amazing success story on fin there: http://www.************.com/interact...st=0&sk=t&sd=a (replace **** with h airlosstalk). This guy says no sides, and why would he? Read the thread and look at him. CLEARLY he is healthy.

I very much doubt if Michael Phelps, Ian Thorpe, David Beckham, or any professional healthy athlete started taking fin they would have their dick start falling off. Infact it isn't like no athlete has ever been banned for using fin is it....

If you aren't healthy, have manic depression, sit in a chair all day and do no exercise, have little muscle mass or are fat (meaning you probably already have high estrogen and low androgenic/anabolic activity), then dont take fin.

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## KeepTheHair

> It's still such a huge fact that these problems have never been found in a medical setting. In another thread, a bunch of surgeons were questioned and out of 30,000 patients, not a single one reported any permenant problems. These facts really cant be ignored, and how can we explain these powerful numbers?


 
I keep thinking about those 30 000 people... and the original studies... which didn't show any permanent side effects...

So it's either a big lie or just extremely uncommon.

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## the_charger

I think its extremely uncommon. But that doesn't mean that it's right to happen to the 0.01% or whatever it's happening to. 

I think many of the guys on propeciahelp are suffering from these problems.. Either as a direct result from propecia or maybe it was just a factor that contributed to it.. Possibly a bad reaction to another med, or maybe they took them at an age where they weren't fully developed from puberty yet? Some guys dont hit puberty till way later. If you took this stuff while you were still developing, i'm sure it would mess you up. I don't know, and nobody knows.

the stuff at propeciahelp is very powerful.. and I think when you have a depressed, fragile, scared guy visiting there, it's a recipe for diaster. I think its happening to a lot of guys, they visit there and end up being depressed at even the thought of having these problems, and their minds just make it all happen. I think Dr. Wasserbauer was on the money with her post in the other thread with Dr. Crisler. Ive seen posts there where the guy registers, posts that hes scared and quits.. and posts like 5 times a day describing every bodily function, until 3 weeks later he thinks he has the same crash everyone else had.. Its pretty obvious this guy just worked himself up about it. 

Also, propeciahelp has like 1800 members right now, but how do we know every single one had problems from propecia? I doubt even 20% of those members are still active; maybe the rest recovered? How do we even know all those members are atually people, and not multiple accounts being created? I'm not saying I know this stuff to be true, but we need to know things like this to truly get to the bottom of whats going on, and to learn how common it is.

I really think propeciahelp was first started with the best intentions, but its really not good for a person thinking they have PFS.. At least if they didn't read propeciahelp, they would still have some hope. And having hope is what keeps people taking the path Randy did.

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## Mens Rea

> I really think propeciahelp was first started with the best intentions, but its really not good for a person thinking they have PFS.. At least if they didn't read propeciahelp, they would still have some hope. And having hope is what keeps people taking the path Randy did.


 Charger, im sorry but that's an unfair conclusion.

Firstly, propeciahelp helps redress the massive absence of information on the topic.  Many guys have literally experienced PFS for years, in complete hell, before finding PH.  Atleast then they can make some sense of the madness, speak to other sufferers and get vital information about potential treatments, good doctors and suchlike.  

For the most part its simply pro-knowledge.

Of course negative undertones have developed.  I guess this is a little inevitable if you think about it.  The most active posters are going to be the guys most screwed up by it.  The most desperate type.  Many of these guys will be, i suppose, mentally worn down or disillusioned by their lack of recovery (often after spending years and thousands of dollars).  Sometimes this disillushionment projects a little too far.

But you can't let that take away from the undeniable utility of PH.  It has done more than you can imagine.  It's helped me meet many like-minded, young, open-minded and determined guys tryign to recover.  I've got a clear, elaborate and sytematic gameplan on what i need to do (try) to hopefully improve beyond what any one doctor could offer me.  I wouldn't have had the same direction without the insight of many of these fellow sufferers.  Many heads are always better than one.


-------------------


As for Randy.  Such a sad story.  Naysayers will jump all over his other problems.  No doubt he did have other problems but i have also no doubt that the fin and dut are what did the critial damage.  If fin can mess up guys that are perfectly healthy (like myself!!) i have no doubt that it can completely disable guys who are already in a compromised position health wise.  If Randy found PH sooner, you never know - he might never have touched the dut.   It could have saved his life.  The lack of informed consent is such a tradegy.

You know what you're doing.  So did i.  Most don't.  That's the biggest travesty of the lot.

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## Bakez

What is your story then? To be honest I was scared by this, but like I posted above, I very much doubt that its possible for a Michael Phelps to pop 3 pills of propecia and then end up with tits and no penis.

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## Mens Rea

> What is your story then? To be honest I was scared by this, but like I posted above, I very much doubt that its possible for a Michael Phelps to pop 3 pills of propecia and then end up with tits and no penis.


 Gyno isn't really a big issue on PH.

It's the sexual dysfunction.  And yes, if Phelps, or anyone for that matter, was unlucky enough to have PFS (or simply develop bad sexual sides whilst on the drug which abate on cessation) they could very easily have "no penis" or whatever.  Believe me.  Most of the guys on PH are young, previously healthy and fit specimens.  Not unhealthy slobs with a host of prior problems.  That's the stark reality.  These are YOUNG guys that were at their sexual peak.  Including me.


Briefly (ive posted my story already).  25 years old.  Took fin for about a year.  Stopped it March 2010 due to lowered libido and erections needing more stimulation.  Things got worse and worst after cessation - watery semen, weak erections, low libido.  Eventually...penile pain and now tissue change and girth/size loss.  Shocking.  Prostrate pain etc.  Still struggling badly but have fluctuated.  Note - never any health or sexual problems prior to fin.  None.  I didn't notice the sides for atleast 6 months and even then it was just a minor libido drop which i just attributed to not having a girlfriend.  I soon learned the hard way.  

Most people tolerate fin better than me, no doubt.  But i would say most think they tolerate it just because they take it a few months without issue (like i did!!).  It can take many years before it creeps up on you.  I've seen that happen time and time again.

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## Bakez

> Gyno isn't really a big issue on PH.
> 
> It's the sexual dysfunction.  And yes, if Phelps, or anyone for that matter, was unlucky enough to have PFS (or simply develop bad sexual sides whilst on the drug which abate on cessation) they could very easily have "no penis" or whatever.  Believe me.  Most of the guys on PH are young, previously healthy and fit specimens.  Not unhealthy slobs with a host of prior problems.  That's the stark reality.  These are YOUNG guys that were at their sexual peak.  Including me.
> 
> 
> Briefly (ive posted my story already).  25 years old.  Took fin for about a year.  Stopped it March 2010 due to lowered libido and erections needing more stimulation.  Things got worse and worst after cessation - watery semen, weak erections, low libido.  Eventually...penile pain and now tissue change and girth/size loss.  Shocking.  Prostrate pain etc.  Still struggling badly but have fluctuated.  Note - never any health or sexual problems prior to fin.  None.  I didn't notice the sides for atleast 6 months and even then it was just a minor libido drop which i just attributed to not having a girlfriend to have sex with every day.  I soon learned the hard way.  
> 
> Most people tolerate fin better than me, no doubt.  But i would say most think they tolerate it just because they take it a few months without issue (like i did!!).  It can take many years before it creeps up on you.  I've seen that happen time and time again.


 No they aren't.

I was worried by this, but then when I looked at some posters histories in detail, I found in the first few I looked at, you had this guy on manic depression and giving himself a disease through alcohol/drug abuse, another guy who apparantly had massive social anxiety and depression for years previously, and one guy who was taking ecstasy and mephedrone while on propecia (****ing LOL), and one more who reckons he has another health problem even bigger than PFS.

Is there anyone who, like you claim, was actually *healthy* before they took it? Or have you just conviniently left out certain circumstances?

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## Bakez

Lol, just realised you are the poster who claimed that people from the UK have a genetic deficiency that makes them prone to PFS, what a joke this is.

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## JOE-91

Look up side effects from ecstasy, what teenager that likes to have a good time hasn't tried it? And mephedrone, I know so many guys that did it hard and still do and they are absolutely fine. 

I am and always have been an incredibly healthy and fit young man, but even after a year of quitting finasteride - I am left with the typical persistant side effects. Seriously, when have you ever heard of a recreational drug causing persistant side effects like these? Of course many of them, and even booze can cause problems temporarily.

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## Bakez

> Look up side effects from ecstasy, what teenager that likes to have a good time hasn't tried it? And mephedrone, I know so many guys that did it hard and still do and they are absolutely fine. 
> 
> I am and always have been an incredibly healthy and fit young man, but even after a year of quitting finasteride - I am left with the typical persistant side effects. Seriously, when have you ever heard of a recreational drug causing persistant side effects like these? Of course many of them, and even booze can cause problems temporarily.


 Yeah but they aren't usually taking another medication at the same time are they? Someone has got to be ****ing mental to be taking ecstasy while on any medication never mind one that alters hormones while you are under the age of 25, when despite what the recommended age is, men still develop until about 21-23.

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## Mens Rea

> Is there anyone who, like you claim, was actually *healthy* before they took it? Or have you just conviniently left out certain circumstances?


 Sorry you've clearly just found 2 or 3 examples, either by coincidence or by convenience, that go against what i said.

If you actualyl did look "in detail" you wouldn't have challenged what i said.

Again.  I'm one.  I converse almost daily with maybe 10-20 others.  If you care enough make a thread on PH go ahead.  But if you even look at the Dr Irwig study, for all its flaws, it ruled out all guys with previous sexual problems (yes i know, just sexual AFAIK) and he still had no problem getting around 80 candidates.

It's all there if you care to look, i assure you.

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## Mens Rea

> Lol, just realised you are the poster who claimed that people from the UK have a genetic deficiency that makes them prone to PFS, what a joke this is.


 Ohhh, i remember you now.  

For everyone's reference:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?p=27523


I LOVE how you jumped away from that thread when i raised some valid points by the way.  Would it be fair to say you were massively out of your depth in that debate?  That thread would suggest so.  Feel free to revisit.  

I'd appreciate if you didn't misquote me by the way.  I was simply speculating on the worrying trend of a disproportionate amount of UK PFS victims.  If this is infact the case, there is very likely a medical reason for it.  Dr Jacobs et al have speculated on what might make one more predisposed to PFS than others himself, so for me to suggest that perhaps one area _might_ present a higher level of predisposal than another, I think that's worth consideration IF the figures are as disproportionate as it would appear.

So - one more time - instead of bullshiting yourself out of arguments, if you don't wish to back up your points with any substance of your own, then i would suggest you stick to posting about things you actually know something about.

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## Bakez

'et al', LOL

What is it then? These doctors like John Crisler who are 'speculating', the same ones charging bucketloads for their care? and then goes round multiple internet forums trolling everyone, claiming everyone is paid by Merck, and issuing 'call to arms' to PFS sufferers like its some sort of cyber internet forum war? LOL

If PFS exists, it isn't to do with bullshit hormone ratios or whatever hormone being 'out of wack'. It is something much deeper than that, it could be androgen resistance, maybe. Or maybe upregulation of androgen receptors, but then again we know that is bullshit as when the opposite happens (down regulation), the receptors WILL replace themselves and even your own John Crisler knows that.

It could be that DHT/5ARII has some sort of massive function on the brain that nobody knows about, but then again IF that were the case, then everyone who took this drug would get ****ed up.

These guys on ph keep pumping themselves with god knows what, they claim like 40mg per day of Zinc has drastic effects on libido, when in reality that will do **** all - so its either in their head or they really are ****ed up.

Some of the sides are bullshit, you penis starting to dry up/crack/scabbing/returning to the size of a 5 year old? I mean seriously? Any pictures of this? I'm serious. It isn't like you have to reveal your face in it is it, and I used to take this seriously (and indeed, people ARE taking your claims seriously) so where is the evidence?

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## Mens Rea

> 'et al', LOL
> 
> What is it then? These doctors like John Crisler who are 'speculating', the same ones charging bucketloads for their care? and then goes round multiple internet forums trolling everyone, claiming everyone is paid by Merck, and issuing 'call to arms' to PFS sufferers like its some sort of cyber internet forum war? LOL


 This is nothing to do with Dr Crisler.

Not to mention, even if it was.  It was never about his personality.  It's about the medical side of things.  Retain some perspective here.  

And just for the record.  Dr Crisler is well established in his field.  This is completely seperate to his internet presence.  Anyway, i don't care to discuss this.





> If PFS exists, it isn't to do with bullshit hormone ratios or whatever hormone being 'out of wack'. It is something much deeper than that, it could be androgen resistance, maybe. Or maybe upregulation of androgen receptors, but then again we know that is bullshit as when the opposite happens (down regulation), the receptors WILL replace themselves and even your own John Crisler knows that.


 Thanks for the insight, doctor.

We don't know for sure but in terms of sexual sides atleast, the issue of androgen _metabolism_ appears to be the most likely candidate IMO.  Enhanced metabolism via the liver can present these hypogondal symptoms quite easily hence the appearance of androgen "resistence".  

The proposal of androgen resistance is a difficult concept.  Developing a partial AR is something completely unprecedented.  Not to say it isn;t that complicated or unique, but it just isn't the most likely thing in all liklihood, especially considering recovery stores (usually via time).






> It could be t*hat DHT/5ARII has some sort of massive function on the brain that nobody knows about,* but then again IF that were the case, then everyone who took this drug would get ****ed up.


 What do you mean, nobody knows about?

The signs are all there.  5ARII inhibitors block allopreg conversion (a critical neurosteroid in the blood and brain) as well as dihydroprogesterone conversion.  Not to mention the indirect effects of DHT suppression on neutotransmitters and other key sex hormones that feedback to the Hypothalamus.  






> These guys on ph keep pumping themselves with god knows what, they claim like 40mg per day of Zinc has drastic effects on libido, when in reality that will do **** all - so its either in their head or they really are ****ed up.


 
LOL.  Really?

Ziinc defeciency can cause a 30% drop in testosterone.  If people are in this category, taking 50-100mg WILL help their testosterone levels immensely.  

Zinc tends to help in milder cases where estrogen isn't _that_ much of a problem.  When it becomes more of a problem you'll need DIM and failing that an AI.






> Some of the sides are bullshit, you penis starting to dry up/crack/scabbing/returning to the size of a 5 year old? I mean seriously? Any pictures of this? I'm serious. It isn't like you have to reveal your face in it is it, and I used to take this seriously (and indeed, people ARE taking your claims seriously) so where is the evidence?


 Man, there's plenty of guys on PH willing to show pictures.  The idea was rejected.  We don't want the place to be a laughing stock ffs.  There'll be plenty of guys willing to share if you wanted.  

As for the "evidence"?  

I'm telling you now man.  My penis changes size throughout the day.  One minute it can be thick, next minute pencil thin.  Even when erect.  I wouldn't have believed it myself if i hadn't happened to me.

It doesn't even have to be a fin thing, transexuals find their penis' shrink when they take their medications (usually estrogens and anti-androgens).  These "guys" can shrink their penis's to ridiculously small sizes.  Go to their forums if you feel the urge.  I've read them  :Confused:  

People who get their prostrates removed often report dramatic shrinkage.

WHEN YOU DIE your penis instantly shrivels up.  It's a central nervous system, blood flow and hormonal issue.  Admittedly the doctors know shit all about this area (generally because they don't give a shit it would seem) but the real life evidence is there.

Also, nitric oxide.  This is necessary for the blood flow of oxidizing of the cells in the penis.  Fin can inhibit NO.  There's studies on this.  

I had shooting pains in my penis (i assume lack of oxygen getting to certain cells...but i don't know for sure) when my "shrinkage" and tissue change onset.  My endo didn't have a clue, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

----------


## Bakez

How would posting pictures of your symptoms turn PFS into a laughing stock? You are aware that Doctors (apart from John Crisler) don't act like 8 year olds?

So you have these symptoms that are ruining your life, causing massive shrinkage of testicles/penis, I think I even saw some people claiming scabbing/rashes, and yet none of you have the guts to go and prove this to a Dr either in person or on the internet?

----------


## the_charger

I cant understand how propecia could possibly permanently change the size of a guys penis, either erect or flacid.

When im nervous or cold of frightened or even feeling depressed, mine sure as hell shrinks.. and it can stay shrunken for a long while, even a day if im feeling in the dumps. I dont think this is hormonal, just the bodies natural response to emotional changes. but honestly I know next to nothing about hormones!

but when you get a full erection Mens Rea, isnt it regular size? or does this fluctuate? If you say its pencil thin, wouldn't it just be a result of not being able to get a full erection due to ED? Or is it sometimes full, but sometimes thin? I notice my erect penis is never the same size.. When i'm REALLY horny during sex, its way bigger than any regular one I get on my own..

I also regularly see guys saying their testicles have shrunken less than half the size.. in some cases, smaller than peas! I know these physical symptoms are disturbing, but still, i've never seen proof of these things other than what guys describe on that forum. The only physical symptom i've ever seen medically documented is gyno, which is a well known symptom:

http://www.ijdvl.com/article.asp?iss...ulast=Mansouri

Im wondering where are all the articles like these that document all the guys with permanently broken penises, shrunken testicles, etc?

This sounds really gay, but I would like to see pictures also.. Lots of guys say their penises were permanently broken, bent, hard, shrunken, bleeding, etc.. It's all very scary stuff, but i've never seen a single shred of proof that any of this stuff is happening. I dont understand why that idea would be rejected. If all this stuff you guys are saying is true, it would be extremely convincing.. In fact if I saw a bunch of similarly messed up penis pictures, I would probably quit propecia on the spot!

I'm not saying you guys are lying, but you can probably understand why stuff like that is extremely hard for us all to believe. I really dont want to be a jackass saying this, but you guys are the ones coming out to tell the world all these things are happening, and that propecia is really dangerous. In order for us to actually believe you, there needs to be some hard and irrefutable evidence to back it up with. im not sure if I agree with all this stuff, but as Carl Segan said... "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

----------


## PropeciaVictim

I don't really see why the thought of PFS is so "extraordinary" as you put it.  To be completely honest, I think the converse is true that it would be considered pretty extraordinary to shut off a biological process without any potential dangers.  Anyway, look at the following article.  It is a small animal study, but it demonstrates the connection between DHT and penile structure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12647000

To Bakez, it is not entirely clear to me whether your posts are genuine or intentionally provocative.  Most Propecia sufferers (including myself) were in impeccable health prior to developing medical problems while on Propecia.  There are a few men who had pre-existing conditions that were likely exacerbated by Propecia.  However, Merck serves no role in contraindicating prescription of finasteride for any pre-existing conditions.  Going strictly off of what the manufacturer states, there is no reason for anybody (other than old men or pregnant women) to avoid finasteride use even if they have a pre-existing endocrine problem.

----------


## Bakez

Who are you then? Maybe you were the guy taking ecstasy and crystal meth while on propecia at 18 years old and then wondering what went wrong?

You lot just post on every single hairloss forum there is under a million different names.

----------


## the_charger

Hi propeciavictim. Im not saying that all of the symptoms are so extraordinary. I can actually see that if the drug causes impotence and other sexual problems while using it, it might be possible that they persist after stopping. But ive seen so many symptoms like the ones I listed above that just dont fit.. They were never found as known symptoms during clinical testing and im just so skeptical that guys have such extreme physical reactions to it without soming else at play.

I saw that study you mentioned a few times before, and on other forums I saw people worked out the math and the rats were getting like over 100 times the dosage that humans take in propecia! Rats also arent equal to humans.. I dont know if this really shows us anthing! I also saw another study that says specifically DHT is not required for adult male sexuality, only Testosterone is.. Also propecia only gets rid of like 75% of it, so it looks like the 25% that remains is more than enough to do what our bodies need it to do. Or else everyone taking this stuff would have serious problems!

I really dont want to argue with you guys about it, because I know you are suffering from problems. But im sure you can understand where im coming from, as a guy in my position, its hard to make an educated decision when there is no real evidence telling me its dangerous.

----------


## Bakez

and hold on, in that rat study they gave the rats 4.5mg of fin per kg of body weight

that would be like a human popping 350 pills a ****ing day LOL, if I took 350 vitamin tablets a day i would probably die, what the hell do you think is going to happen taking 350 fin tablets?

what a joke

----------


## PropeciaVictim

Your argument doesn't really hold since the excess finasteride would be metabolized and excreted.  Take a look at the following BT post by SPEX.  After increasing dose above 1mg in humans, the effect on DHT inhibition basically disappears.  It is very likely you would have the same results if a normal human level dose was administered.

This doesn't 'prove' the possibility but such a type of study could never be performed on humans since the subjects are sacrificed for the sake of the experiment.

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4980

----------


## KeepTheHair

uh

I find it hard to believe someone wont get side effects from 350 pills.....................................

----------


## the_charger

There must be more to it because why do people taking the 5 mg Procar version get so many more side effects than the 1mg propecia version? I know its older guys on Proscar, but its still placebo controlled.. It pretty clearly shows that 5mg has more side effects than 1mg, and then when you go from 1 mg to 350 mg, it might be much worse. But on the other hand, I remember hearing when finasteride was first tested, some guys were on around 50mgs for months and didnt have any problems either. 

Still even if this study were actually sound, we cant say the exact same thing happens to humans. If it was really true, guys like Spencer who have been on it for 15 years would have probably no sexual function at all! It looks like all the rats that took finasteride had damaged penises. why dont all humans have the same thing? If our penises were all messed up like those rats, every guy that took propecia for even a little while would have major problems!

----------


## VictimOfDHT

I think the milk we buy at food stores does more harm to our bodies than propecia will ever do. And so do all the processed and canned foods, which are behind the skyrocketing cases of cancer yet nobody says anything about that. Heck, I'd be worried eating a hamburger at Mcdonald's than I'd be about taking propecia. Sheeple are selective about what to be afraid of and what not. It's all part of the brainwashing.

----------


## PropeciaVictim

No, you can't say with 100&#37; certainty that this study shows finasteride will impact humans in the same way, but it provides some evidence that cannot be clearly written off.  If you want to make an educated decision, it is a factor you should consider.  Propecia hasn't been around long enough to test its effect on the full human life cycle.  

Victim of DHT - You must be kidding. Milk is a natural source of nutrition for any mammalian infant.  Big macs, while high in fat content and low in nutritious value, do not directly impact the endocrine, nervous, reproductive systems.

----------


## VictimOfDHT

Propeciavictim, no. You gotta be kidding. If you knew anything about "processed" milk you wouldn't be saying this. I'm NOT talking about natural "raw" milk. I'm talking about the shit we buy at stores. I dont need to say much. NO need to. The proof is out there. Why do you think so many people have cancer these days ? The shit we're eating and drinking is all CHEMICALS. Meats, veggies,... 
So being fat, or I should say obese like the 40&#37; of the people in N. America is somehow less dangerous than some side effects that a few people here and there claim from taking propecia !! At least propecia is something you choose to do. Not so with the poison we're forced to eat BECAUSE we have no other choice.

----------


## PropeciaVictim

> At least propecia is something you choose to do. Not so with the poison we're forced to eat BECAUSE we have no other choice.


 Not quite sure the last time somebody forced me to eat a Big Mac or drink milk.  Also can't remember the last time somebody committed suicide due to side effects cause by pasteurized milk or McDonald's.  I really shouldn't have bothered to respond to this.

----------


## skipstah70

> This is a very sad story indeed, but how can the media or anyone blame this kid’s death 100&#37; on Propecia? How do we know how depressed he was before he took it? How do we know that he didn’t start taking the drug after being depressed about his hair loss and then began reading propeciahelp which can send anyone over the edge. There could have been a multitude of issues that led to this suicide. He had to have been very fragile to begin with, which does not minimize this tragic story, but probably played a big role in the kid’s death.  When you’re 20 years old and depressed your mind can really run away with what you read on the internet. He might have thought that his side effects would never go away based on the stories on propeciahelp. It’s so sad because the odds are he would have recovered eventually. Does anyone know if he wrote about suicide on propeciahelp? Did the site owner contact the authorities if he did? This story breaks my heart.


 Hey Zao, he mighta.. blah blah blah.  He mighta.. blah blah blah. He mighta blah blah blah.  

You know what else? He just might have really killed himself because of the ****ing reason stated in the story.  Wake up and take a cue from all those in this forum who complain about sexual side effects from the drug, and stop trying to discredit/diminish anyone who has something critical to say about Propecia.

----------


## skipstah70

> No one is ignoring these posts, but you have to put everything into perspective. This kid suffered from a rare self induced syndrome and took these medications at the same time. He was already mentally screwed up and probably spent a lot of time reading propeciahelp which might have made things even worse for him. If you really believe that this can happen to you, why not just stop taking Propecia? You’re not having side effects now, so you have nothing to worry about when you stop. If I were so afraid of it I would stop taking it. It’s a simple as that. It’s your choice, no one is putting a gun to your head to take it.


 Interesting, so.. from this perspective it almost sounds like you absolve the company of responsibility with regards to the product it produces.  I'm sorry, but the responsibility of the hazzards of a drug are 100&#37; the company's. It's their responsibility to test for, list, and pull of the market if neccessary because of adverse side effects.. especially if some are as serious or permanent as alleged.  Even if this happens in a ridiculously small minority of those taking the drug, they are responsible.. not you!!  What would you have told people who took thalidamide in the 50s?? "If you thought this drug would cause you any side effects, you should have just stop taking it??"  Get real bud.

----------


## Mens Rea

> I cant understand how propecia could possibly permanently change the size of a guys penis, either erect or flacid.
> 
> When im nervous or cold of frightened or even feeling depressed, mine sure as hell shrinks.. and it can stay shrunken for a long while, even a day if im feeling in the dumps. I dont think this is hormonal, just the bodies natural response to emotional changes. but honestly I know next to nothing about hormones!
> *
> but when you get a full erection Mens Rea, isnt it regular size? or does this fluctuate? If you say its pencil thin, wouldn't it just be a result of not being able to get a full erection due to ED? Or is it sometimes full, but sometimes thin? I notice my erect penis is never the same size.*. When i'm REALLY horny during sex, its way bigger than any regular one I get on my own..
> 
> I also regularly see guys saying their testicles have shrunken less than half the size.. in some cases, smaller than peas! I know these physical symptoms are disturbing, but still, i've never seen proof of these things other than what guys describe on that forum. The only physical symptom i've ever seen medically documented is gyno, which is a well known symptom:
> 
> http://www.ijdvl.com/article.asp?iss...ulast=Mansouri
> ...


 
Yes, it changes even when "fully" erect.  Depending on a number of things.  The girth has been 50% before.  Clearly my penis hasn't literally shrank 50% because it could be bigger the very next day , but clearly something is very wrong.

Basically my penis can look completely different from one day to the next - you wouldn't think it belongs to the same person.

As for evidence etc.  Well, tbh I'm not that bothered what random posters on hairloss sites think.  I could spend my life trying to convince guys im telling the truth, but for what?  Maybe someday i'll get fed up and take pictures but right now all i care about is getting better tand putting this all behind me.


As for people saying their testicles shrink.  This isn't even all tha "out there" at all.  If you have a hard to believing that you aren't really in the know whatsoever.  Go on steroid forums and you'll see very similar things.

----------


## Bakez

so maybe infact you are just trolling every hairloss site under the sun under different usernames

who is propeciavictim exactly? is he you as well?

----------


## Mens Rea

> so maybe infact you are just trolling every hairloss site under the sun under different usernames
> 
> who is propeciavictim exactly? is he you as well?


 How mature.

I use the same username on both PropeciaHelp and Hair loss talk.com.  My profile couldn't be more transparent.

I don't what your normal day entails but I certainly have more exciting things to be doing than having multiple accounts of HAIRLOSS websites.  Having one is depressing enough, particularly when having to interact with clowns like you.

Unlike you, I am normal in real life.  I'm willing to bet you aren't.  Noone without issues is such a big douche anonymously for no reason.

Again, please revist that other thread and stop trolling.

----------


## Bakez

Well you have to be a ****ing thick **** if you actually do have these symptoms but can't be bothered to provide any proof of them when nobody on the planet believes you (other than Doctors who act like 8 year olds, sell their own 'hairloss' cream and love taking your money).

----------


## Mens Rea

> Well you have to be a ****ing thick **** if you actually do have these symptoms but can't be bothered to provide any *proof* of them when nobody on the planet believes you (other than Doctors who act like 8 year olds, sell their own 'hairloss' cream and love taking your money).


 I have posted my bloods on PH and written out my story in detail.

What more do you want?  You aren't my doctor.  

I have a GP, Endo and Urologist all on-side, I provide them with "proof".  I'm not sure why i need to take pictures of my penis for some random internet posters.  I've put the information out there for people to consider

Anyway my main issues are things difficult to prove.  Sexual issues are difficult to prove.  Watery semen?  Prostrate Pain?  Low libido?  MERCK are hiding behind this grey area and have been for years.   ED wasn't even recognised as a physical problme until recently.  The medical world is embarassing behind the times in this area.  That is where all this incredulity emanates from.  Sad, really.

You're a "thick ****" if you think there are thousands of trolls scattered across the internet with stories about propecia messing up their sexual function etc.  No smoke without fire.

----------


## Mens Rea

> *nobody on the planet believes you* (other than Doctors who act like 8 year olds, sell their own 'hairloss' cream and love taking your money).


 Says who?

Simply put, most top doctors haven't *seen* this yet.

Dr Irwig has and he believes it.  He is top of the food chain.  Not some random HT surgeon.  He is a real Scientist.  He has spent HUNDREDS of hours of his own time, for FREE, on the cause.  That alone speaks volumes.

Dr Shippen, Dr Jacobs, Dr Goldstein, Professor Bouloux and many others are actively working on the finasteride puzzle.  All top line doctors.

I spoke to Professor Bouloux for an hour on the phone about my own case.  For Free.   Just because he is interested in PFS.  He has 40-50 other victims.

So how about you stop getting completely owned by me and do your homework?

----------


## KeepTheHair

Mens Rea, I believe you. I hope things get better for you and want to thank you for dedicating your time to sharing what you have so far.

Keep us updated in the coming time. How rare do you think these horrible side effects are?

----------


## Mens Rea

> Mens Rea, I believe you. I hope things get better for you and want to thank you for dedicating your time to sharing what you have so far.
> 
> Keep us updated in the coming time. How rare do you think these horrible side effects are?


 
Thanks man.  I think/hope they will.  I'm revamping things trying to get my body to recover.

It feels like my body's defaults have been reset though.  When i try something new it usually works briefly and then things tail of back to my new "base".  It's bizarre.

I will.  I'm going to meet this guy tonight to discuss things:  http://wallacedinsmore.com/   to see what he can do.

It really is personal torment as noone else really will understand.  And the fact that PFS is so "out there" means you don't even get treated with the care you truly deserve.  It's a lonely place but im not letting it stop me from doing everything in my power to heal (unlike alot of guys on PH who are defeatist).




> Keep us updated in the coming time. How rare do you think these horrible side effects are?


 The really bad cases like Randys?  Surely 1 in 10,000 odd.
Guys somewhere in the middle?  I believe about 1 in 1,000
Someone like me (no mental sides) - Maybe less, maybe 1 in 500.  
Any sides?  - I reckon atleast about 10&#37; will get some traceable changes in their sexual function but most of these won't be problematic and even more will probably recover after cessation.


There is 10-15 guys on *** with similar issues to myself, all from fin.  These guys were members when they started fin.  Going by that maybe the incidences are higher than you might think, but maybe that's just a coincidence as less guys on here seem to report problems...

----------


## the_charger

Bakez, I somewhat agree with you here, but you really should try to act a bit more mature. Don't throw out insults like that, it's really childish! We all saw how Dr. Crisler acted and now what do we all think of him? Guys like Mens Rea and Propeciavictim have been very mature about all this, so you should show them the same respect, even if you disagree. 

Mens rea, Im willing to go on faith that you guys are telling the truth here, but maybe the risk is being overstated. That doesnt make any of this easier for you guys, and anyone on propecia still needs to seriously consider all of this before starting.

But im sure you do understand its hard for a lot of guys to believe this, when there really isnt much evidence supporting what you guys say. But that might change very soon.

Another thing I noticed is that lots of you guys seem to have started on it relatively young. Do you think maybe the age you start might have something to do with increasing the risk?

The reason I say that is because for example, Dr. Wasserbauer says shes prescribed between 5000-7000 patients propecia, but I would say most of those guys are probably over 30 if they are getting hair transplants to go along with it. Almost all the guys I saw on propeciahelp started before they were 25. I know that puberty is usually done for most guys by 16, but Ive personally known guys who didnt even hit it till they were 17 or 18.. And from what I remember at health class, it can take 3 or 4 years for it to finish (including the hormones changes and all that). 

So yeah, some guys might not even be done puberty changes till 22 or 23, and if you took propecia before that was finished, I can easily see how badly it might mess you up. Thats just a theory though, not based on any real science! But from what Ive seen, its mostly young guys that have these problems. I havent read many stories on propeciahelp of guys that started on this in their 30s or later and had permanent problems. 

But if any of that is true, I am worried because Im only 19! But I hit puberty earlier than my friends, at 13 or 14.. Maybe thats part of why im balding so young!

----------


## the_charger

By the way I agree with your last post too Mens Rea, you show a lot of courage and strength with your determination to fix things. Even keeping a postivie attitude like you do will help so much.

you are definitely not the norm that I see a propeciahelp. Everyone there is so hopeless, and lots of them have already given up. Even with something like what you are going through, there are so many things you can do to make yourself healthier, and at least make things a better until someone figures out exactly how to cure it. 

You look at people suffering from serious deseases like cancer, and it's over for them the second they decide to give up. Just by having a positive outlook makes a world of difference! I have a lot of respect for you for that, man!

----------


## PropeciaVictim

I don't think being younger makes you more susceptible to developing PFS so I don't think you should feel more at risk than any other Propecia consumer.

Dr. Wasserbauer's personal anecdotes are likely to be extremely biased.  She mentioned in her interview that men would call her with side effects and she would just tell them not to worry since they were likely psychological.

When I was prescribed Propecia at age 22, I developed noticeably less strong erections within a couple of days after taking the drug.  I emailed my doctor and he said the side effects are so rare that it is likely in my head and disregarded my report.

He is not a hair transplant doctor, but if you were to ask him if persistent side effects were to have been reported to him it is overwhelmingly probable he would say no, despite that not being true.  Needless to say, I was frustrated and never returned to him.  It really doesn't make sense to visit Dr. Wasserbauer with sexual problems, especially when she really is not terribly familiar with the endocrine and reproductive systems.  Even though she prescribed the drug, her likely dismissive attitude will influence her patient to make a b-line for a second opinion.

If she were to make a more rigorous effort to call each and every one of her patients that used Propecia and asked neutral questions about the sexual health before and after the use of the medication, her comments would be more credible.

----------


## PropeciaVictim

For those who are interested, I just found a letter from the FDA to Merck in 1998 where they were caught for fraudulent marketing and required to stop airing many of their advertisements.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/G.../UCM168159.pdf

----------


## UK_

> For those who are interested, I just found a letter from the FDA to Merck in 1998 where they were caught for fraudulent marketing and required to stop airing many of their advertisements.
> 
> http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/G.../UCM168159.pdf


 lol scumbags.

----------


## Mens Rea

> Mens rea, Im willing to go on faith that you guys are telling the truth here, but maybe the risk is being *overstated*. That doesnt make any of this easier for you guys, and anyone on propecia still needs to seriously consider all of this before starting.


 I'm not sure where the risk has been overstated, though.  Noone is really trying to put numbers on it because none of us really know for sure.





> But im sure you do understand its hard for a lot of guys to believe this, when there really isnt much evidence supporting what you guys say. But that might change very soon.


 It will slowly change over time, but yeah I BARELY BELIEVE IT myself even when i see it with my own eyes.  It's nuts.  




> Another thing I noticed is that lots of you guys seem to have started on it relatively young. Do you think maybe the age you start might have something to do with increasing the risk?


 I don't think so.  But i definately wouldn't start it younger than 21-23.  Who knows for sure, though.  We know so little about these things right now you could well be right.





> But if any of that is true, I am worried because Im only 19! But I hit puberty earlier than my friends, at 13 or 14.. Maybe thats part of why im balding so young!


 I just can't advise you man.  It's a personal choice.  If you have aggressive thinning at 19 i doubt fin will do _that_ much anyway.  It didn't for me, anyway. 

Your chances of persisting sides are probably low but i wouldn't be surprised if you got some sides on the drug.  Up to you to exercise good judgement.

----------


## seattle30

On the topic of erectile physiology from a few posts ago. This paper deals with the effects of finasteride on erectile function.  Obviously there are many possible reasons why PFS is occuring, but I wonder if the disorganized and thick collagenous fibers in the tunica albuginea are present even after cessation of propecia in people with PFS?

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/.../full/29/5/514

"Further evaluation of the role of DHT in the penis has been done at the penile morphologic level. Shen et al (2000) investigated the ultrastructural changes of the penile corpus cavernosum and tunica albuginea in rats representing 3 groups: sham control, castrated, and treated with finasteride. Four weeks later, blood samples were obtained for the determination of serum T and DHT levels, and penile tissues were taken for scanning electron microscopy. The T and DHT levels in castrated rats and the DHT level in finasteride-treated groups were significantly lower than those in the control group. In the castrated animals, there was a high degree of fibrosis in the corpus cavernosum with irregularly arranged collagenous fibers and a marked decrease in smooth muscle fibers, while in the DHT-inhibited group (finasteride-treated), the corpus cavernosum comprised a substantial amount of thick and irregularly arranged collagenous fibers, but the degree of fibrosis was less than that of the castration group (Shen et al, 2000). This work suggests that because finasteride inhibits the action of DHT but not T on the corporal cavernosal tissue, the degree of fibrosis was less in the DHT-inhibited group than in the castration group. In the castration group, the thickness of tunica albuginea decreased significantly and the elastic fibers were mostly supplanted by collagenous fibers, and in the DHT-inhibited group, the elastic fibers were replaced by disorganized and thick collagenous fibers. Since the tunica albuginea plays a major role in the erectile mechanism of the penis, the latter results offer an explanation for the presentation of ED in patients treated with 5ARIs."

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## PropeciaVictim

It is possible, but to my knowledge it is impossible to know for sure without physically removing the penis.  Months after stopping finasteride I had very low serum DHT levels.  If low DHT leads to disorganized penile fibers in humans it is possible that is possibly part of the reason why the effects participated.  One possible treatment is to put Andractim (DHT) right onto your penis.  I have not yet tried this and do not know that it has worked for anybody yet.

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## seattle30

Think you are probably right but was just wondering if there may be a way to biopsy the tissue.  It talks about scanning electron microscopy which is a microscope probably only available at research labs.  Would be intresting to talk to a urologist about the paper.

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## PabloR

A sad story in indeed, my heart goes out to his friends and family!

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## fastinjun

**** sake, I started taking this crap in 1999, took it till around 2004, made my life a living hell and when I'd post on some of these hairloss forums I was told it was all in my head. Im sure this poor guy went through hell in order to end his life, to be honest, the thought went through my head many times. An absolute living hell it was. My heart goes out to the parents and I hope Merck goes to hell soon

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## Mens Rea

> **** sake, I started taking this crap in 1999, took it till around 2004, made my life a living hell and when I'd post on some of these hairloss forums I was told it was all in my head. Im sure this poor guy went through hell in order to end his life, to be honest, the thought went through my head many times. An absolute living hell it was. My heart goes out to the parents and I hope Merck goes to hell soon


 Have you recovered?

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## fastinjun

I recovered almost 100 %, there are some "reminders" but overall yes. It took a long time and it was a painful road. 
When I see some of the responses to the video saying "how do we know it was propecia causing his symptoms'? etc. He had the same mental symptoms that I did, brain fog, not being able to function or think straight. It was like being in a dream state but never waking up from it. It was a nightmare. I went to doctors and was only told it was all in my head etc. I went to so many and was told the same thing. 
I really feel for the parents and this poor soul who took his life. 
Merck is the devil in my opinion, they knew of the sides but greed prevailed.

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## Mens Rea

> I recovered almost 100 %, there are some "reminders" but overall yes. It took a long time and it was a painful road. 
> When I see some of the responses to the video saying "how do we know it was propecia causing his symptoms'? etc. He had the same mental symptoms that I did, brain fog, not being able to function or think straight. It was like being in a dream state but never waking up from it. It was a nightmare. I went to doctors and was only told it was all in my head etc. I went to so many and was told the same thing. 
> I really feel for the parents and this poor soul who took his life. 
> Merck is the devil in my opinion, they knew of the sides but greed prevailed.


 I'm delighted to hear your recovered.

Can you, please, PLEASE report your recovery on propeciahelp if you haven't already?  There are so little reported recoveries on there because many guys don't return.  Some less knowledgable posters don't realise this and think noone recovers and lose all hope.  You story would help many, believe me.

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## UK_

I guess theres one thing in life worse than losing your hair, and thats losing your sex life.

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## fastinjun

I posted my recovery on propeciahelp. I was there when the group first started on yahoo, I went by the name kodawolf in the beginning, I dont know if Mew still has those old posts. Look up Mitch or Fastinjun too.

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## Mens Rea

> I guess theres one thing in life worse than losing your hair, and thats losing your sex life.


 U soon forget about your hairline when your dick isn't working.  And worse still (im told) when  you cant think straight !!

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## fastinjun

Let me add this, propecia did wonders for my hair, at first I was thrilled but then the sides came and got worse and I couldnt get any answers as to what was wrong with me. At first I had no clue, I kept going back to the website to see what the sides were from propecia but nothign was mentioned. Thank God I found the yahoo site at the time, propeciahelp, then it all came together, it all made sense but I still had to figure out how to get better, no doctor believed me, I even had one that I went to several times threaten to send me to mental health because "it was all in my head". Very frustrating...what a nightmare.

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## VictimOfDHT

I don't know what the big deal is about sex. I really couldn't give a **** about sex. In fact, I don't and I choose not to have sex. 
Most men seem to feel there's nothing more important in life than sex, not because it is really that important, but because they've been programmed -and I don't mean biologically here- to think that way.

Yeah, I guess I'm one lucky guy because Fin never affected my sex life, JUST LIKE IT DIDN'T THE OTHER 98% OF USERS. But even if it did, I still would not have cared since to me hair is way more important than sex. The way I see it, you have sex once a week or so. If you're married once every other week or even less. But your hair is there -OR NOT- 24/7/365 wherever you go.

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## fastinjun

other 98% of users huh, ....good for you moron. Fact is this guy suffered symptoms beyond the sexual part as well, brain fog, Im guessing you are one of those idiots that say its all in your head.. right, sure it is. I suffered with this crap for 5+ years, everyday was a living hell. 
Sex not important to you , good for you

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## PropeciaVictim

Fastinjun - How long did it take you to recover from your side effects and did you require any interventions or did the recovery happen naturally over time.

VictimofDHT's last post is completely absurd.  The primary biological imperative that has developed in evolution over the past billions of years has been to reproduce.  Sex is not the only important aspect of life, but it is undeniably important.  If you disagree, there is likely something wrong with you emotionally or physiologically.

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## fastinjun

> Fastinjun - How long did it take you to recover from your side effects and did you require any interventions or did the recovery happen naturally over time.
> 
> VictimofDHT's last post is completely absurd.  The primary biological imperative that has developed in evolution over the past billions of years has been to reproduce.  Sex is not the only important aspect of life, but it is undeniably important.  If you disagree, there is likely something wrong with you emotionally or physiologically.


 It literally took years in my case. I went to so many doctors looking for treatment but no one took me seriously, not one. It took hours and hours of internet, trying to figure out so many possible treatments, thank God for propeciahelp.com, it gave support when there wasnt any from doctors etc. 
I ended up treating my adrenals, thyriod and it took time, lot of it. I used armour thyroid and isocort, it was all self treatment. I did use acupuncture as well. There is no magic bullet in this case and what works for one person doesnt necessarily work for another.

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## PropeciaVictim

May I ask how many years specifically it took you to recover?  I am 14 months in at this point and have not made too much progress.  Were the armor thyroid and isocort necessary for recovery or do you feel it just required time?

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## fastinjun

> May I ask how many years specifically it took you to recover?  I am 14 months in at this point and have not made too much progress.  Were the armor thyroid and isocort necessary for recovery or do you feel it just required time?


 It took years cause I didnt know what was causing my symptoms for the longest time. When I did figure it out then it was the trying to figure out how to treat it. It took me a few years, trail and error, it was not easy for me since I was doing this all by myself...****ing tough time. I honestly think the armour and the isocort help in a major way, helped me withe the brain fog, how horrible that was...gives me shivers just to think about it. But like I said, what worked for me may or may not work for someone else. Good Luck...

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## stylus187

> Christ....


 Propecia equals poison!

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## fastinjun

> Propecia equals poison!


 it sure the **** is!!!

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## VictimOfDHT

hey fast, come suck my dick you and your mom.

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## VictimOfDHT

maybe that is the language you prefer you son of a bitch.

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## VictimOfDHT

too bad you ****ing bastard Fin didn't make your filthy mouth go limp,  you dumb ****.

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## fastinjun

> too bad you ****ing bastard Fin didn't make your filthy mouth go limp,  you dumb ****.


 my my, suck your dick?, I guess sex is important after all to you... moron lol

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## VictimOfDHT

> Fastinjun - How long did it take you to recover from your side effects and did you require any interventions or did the recovery happen naturally over time.
> 
> VictimofDHT's last post is completely absurd.  The primary biological imperative that has developed in evolution over the past billions of years has been to reproduce.  Sex is not the only important aspect of life, but it is undeniably important.  If you disagree, there is likely something wrong with you emotionally or physiologically.


 No, there's nothing wrong with me. But maybe you need to get your brain checked. Evolution eh !! Idiot.

Maybe sex is important but I won't make THE most important thing like many of men are doing. But you also need to think before you just parrot answers without thinking. "reproduce" !! What's the &#37; of people who actually reproduce every time they have sex ????? If you bothered to use your brain for a sec you'd know that the only absurd thing here is saying that sex is used for reproduction because the FACT is that the vast majority of people ESPECIALLY young ones have sex for the FUN of it and NOT to reproduce but.......ahhh why do I care

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## PropeciaVictim

I think the administrators of this forum should ban Victim of DHT.  He has been very abusive verbally and it is incredibly disrespectful given it is in this specific thread.

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## fastinjun

> No, there's nothing wrong with me. But maybe you need to get your brain checked. Evolution eh !! Idiot.
> 
> Maybe sex is important but I won't make THE most important thing like many of men are doing. But you also need to think before you just parrot answers without thinking. "reproduce" !! What's the % of people who actually reproduce every time they have sex ????? If you bothered to use your brain for a sec you'd know that the only absurd thing here is saying that sex is used for reproduction because the FACT is that the vast majority of people ESPECIALLY young ones have sex for the FUN of it and NOT to reproduce but.......ahhh why do I care


 This is gotta be one of the most idiotic responses Ive seen in a helluva long time, thanks for the laugh...Buaaaaaaaahahaaaaaaa

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