# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  (CB-03-01 Vehicle Research) PhD Student in Chemistry

## adam k

A little bit about me. I am a PhD student at a leading institution in the world. I live in the UK and have an undergraduate degree as well as a Masters in Chemistry. I am now doing a PhD also related to Chemistry. I will not disclose the institution or my thesis as I prefer to remain anonymous (as other PhD candidates know, a thesis is unique to every person).

I have been a hair loss sufferer since I was 18 years old. I am now in my mid twenties and I am a norwood 2 with medium diffuse thinning. This god forsaken disease has taken over my life and I have been lurking on hair loss forums for years and years every single night. I am absolutely disgusted that in the last 50 years there has been no advancements to this field and it is an absolute outrage that the best treatment in 2013 is an internal 5-AR inhibitor with the side effects that it entails. 

I refuse to take Finasteride and at the moment I am only using Nizoral 2% which is simply not enough. I also have personal reasons not to take Minoxidil.
After lurking for so long I am firmly in Hellousers camp. The research world simply does not take male hair loss seriously and as a PhD student I have searched the databases for journals pertaining to this field and it is a miniscule fraction. I firmly believe that were this disease to affect women that a cure would have been discovered by now. The hair loss research companies out there are simply taking the P and I am furious and disgusted at their snail pace research and the unwillingness for the research world to unite efforts to find a solution for an inflicton which affects the percentage of the male population that it does. 

For this reason it is my dream to complete my PhD and set up a research group myself dedicated to curing this affliction. In the meantime I am researching into using CB-03-01 msyelf and I am taking matters into my own hands. It is an outrage and insult to us that Cosmo are starting tials on Acne treatment first as there already exist many treatments for Acne and yet once again MPB takes a back seat. I hope that Cosmo releases a commercial product for androgenetic alopecia however after being around this field for so long, as a pessimist I think something will happen to prevent that. In the instance that they do release something, it will be too late for me and I NEED TO DO SOMETHING NOW. 

Therefore in my free time I am dedicating my time and research facilities to try and find a suitable vehicle for CB-03-01. Bare in mind I am a pure Chemist although I do have some knowledge in Chemical Biology also. Also please bare in mind I have just started my in depth research on this molecular compound, I shall be doing some heavy reading in the following days.

Before I start my own research I want to clarify a few things. 

1) After searching and studying the CB-03-01 patent

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2503005A2?cl=en

*lines #64 and #65 pertain to obtaining a pharmaceutical form. It describes this in detail so why has no one tried this?* 

2) If the above point 1 is negated then could I have a list of all possible vehicle research attempts by people with details of compositions and concentrations.

3) How do you guys determine if a vehicle is successful or not. Is this verified by a personal trial of the product and recording the results? 

4) I am about to order CB-03-01 form 3 from Kane. Is this the best place to buy it from?

I also want to ask since CB-03-01 is a steroid and as in the medical world testosterone and steroids can be administered as a transdermal cream, is there any reason why this molecule can't be compounded in the same vehicle?

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxWncRr_ZFc*

Finally a shoutout to Hellouser, you are my inspiration. I admire your willingness, research effort and courage in tackling this disease head on yourself and taking matters into your own hands. If more people like you existed on these forums, I'm sure we could reach a solution to this affliction ourselves as lord knows, help isn't going to come from anywhere else.

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## adam k

Also a shout out to Joe from Staten Island, I have watched all of the shows and you are a great source of inspiration to me and the reason I listen to it. I don't know if you will read this but if you do, know this brother that I emphasise with your pain and that your suffering is not going unheard. 

I don't know which episode it was but when someone called in and asked you 'if you woke up tomorrow with a full head of hair, would you be happy?' and you replied yes; you would be able to walk on the beach and hear the birds sing and you broke down in tears.......I also broke down at that exact moment hearing you cry with tears running down my cheeks. We're all in this together brother.

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## clandestine

Thank you, we're entirely appreciative of what you're doing.

Iron dragon will soon be selling a premixed solution of 50% propylene glycol / 50% ethanol for their CB; what are your thoughts on this?

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## brunobald

Nice one Adam, good to hear there are guys out there like you who are intrested in the MPB puzzle. Hopefully we can crack this and make baldness an option not inevitable.

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## hellouser

Thanks for the shout out Adam  :Smile: 

You're right, the only people that are going to help us are ourselves. Having said that, me and another forum member, Axel, have been in brief talks about pushing forward a crowd funding initiative to sponsor current or new initiatives for hair loss and speed up this disease. Take a look at this thread, perhaps you may be interested as a contributor?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13596

I've mentioned crowdfunding and online awareness campaigns before but nobody has ever made much of it, I'm glad Axel is on board.

Good luck with your findings on CB! I hope as a chemist you can help us out and give us some insight. If you find any information as to its safety with skin atrophy, it'd be greatly appreciated. As I'm aware steroids can and do cause skin thinning, but CB is supposed to be a milder than the most mild steroid that causes skin thinning.

Thanks Adam!!  :Smile:

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## lilpauly

Adam please be my brother and help me find the proper cb-03-01 vehicle . Kane is the only source for the proper form 111 cb . It was third party tested

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## Phatalis

I just had an hst and as of now I temp feel out of the woods of this huge disease. With that said its a lifelong thing so I easily might still be in trouble.  Even with that said even if I was fine I would still be wanting to donate to cure this disease for anyone who has it. I'm def willing to throw down money for the right cause. I'd throw in generously...we all want this shit to end.

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## hellouser

> I just had an hst and as of now I temp feel out of the woods of this huge disease. With that said its a lifelong thing so I easily might still be in trouble.  Even with that said even if I was fine I would still be wanting to donate to cure this disease for anyone who has it. I'm def willing to throw down money for the right cause. I'd throw in generously...we all want this shit to end.


 Keep an eye out on the crowdfunding thread. Reality is, the only people that give a shit about our condition (both the physical aspects of hair loss and mental) are ourselves. Nobody is going to help us unless we do something ourselves.

Axel has some solid ideas going, I'm sure all of us can work together to bring forward a much better treatment than fvcking finasteride.

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## adam k

Cheers everyone. Oh and I forgot to mention clandestine and lilpauly, you guys too are pioneers and great researchers. Theres also another guy called irishpride who is a great poster over on another forum.

lilpauly you have quite an impressive regimen lol, your hairline seems great. And Hellouser ofc I would be more than happy to contribute to eradicate this life destroying disease which people are so blasé about.

Could someone answer point 1 that I made and also whether an existing transdermal steroid delivery system has been utilised/modified for cb.

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## Dan26

> Could someone answer point 1 that I made and also whether an existing transdermal steroid delivery system has been utilised/modified for cb.


 It says 'oil in water vanishing cream'....patent explains water is no good for a CB vehicle if I recall correctly

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## hellouser

We really, REALLY need to find an iontophoresis device that will deliver the kind of results that Cosmo got in their presentation. 54% increased hair count with 50% increase in hair thickness?

CB really need to be made a top priority until the theres another better option.

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## Conpecia

Hell yes, Adam. This is exactly what needs to be focused on until a proper vehicle is determined. If we can stop further loss without sides using CB that is a huge part of the game. We will then be able to direct all of our efforts toward regrowth.

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## KJ1982

It's just a thought and it's probably been considered before, but how about submitting a petition or appeal of, just for example, ten thousand signatures to Cosmo Pharmaceuticals regarding a shift in their focus away from acne treatments toward treating alopecia?

Of course, it should be thoughtfully and respectfully worded but Change.org allows for the easy creation of such a petition or appeal and it can easily be shared and promoted via Facebook, etc.

Surely a list of X thousand names would grab their attention and give them something to consider for at least a moment...?  :Smile:

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## yan

> It's just a thought and it's probably been considered before, but how about submitting a petition or appeal of, just for example, ten thousand signatures to Cosmo Pharmaceuticals regarding a shift in their focus away from acne treatments toward treating alopecia?
> 
> Of course, it should be thoughtfully and respectfully worded but Change.org allows for the easy creation of such a petition or appeal and it can easily be shared and promoted via Facebook, etc.
> 
> Surely a list of X thousand names would grab their attention and give them something to consider for at least a moment...?


 I think this is highly unlikely to happen... First they are about to finish phase 2 for acne in early 2014 and second, they signed a big deal with Medicis / Valeant with milestone-payments and so on... You not only need to convince Cosmo but also Medicis / Valeant.

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## hellouser

> It's just a thought and it's probably been considered before, but how about submitting a petition or appeal of, just for example, ten thousand signatures to Cosmo Pharmaceuticals regarding a shift in their focus away from acne treatments toward treating alopecia?
> 
> Of course, it should be thoughtfully and respectfully worded but Change.org allows for the easy creation of such a petition or appeal and it can easily be shared and promoted via Facebook, etc.
> 
> Surely a list of X thousand names would grab their attention and give them something to consider for at least a moment...?


 Noted. Something like this could be used for the crowdfunding campaign as well as bringing attention. Read this for more info: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13596

Theres nothing they can do since they started the trials for CB so late, but we could always make the case that we *MUST HAVE* CB sooner than later. I doubt the FDA will let it go through quicker either. AFAIK, asian markets dont require Phase III trials so perhaps they could start selling it there and we could just import it?

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## KJ1982

> I think this is highly unlikely to happen... First they are about to finish phase 2 for acne in early 2014 and second, they signed a big deal with Medicis / Valeant with Milestone-Payments and so on...


 Ah. Okay. I'm a bit late to the table on this one... Lol.





> Noted. Something like this could be used for the crowdfunding campaign as well as bringing attention. Read this for more info: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13596
> 
> Theres nothing they can do since they started the trials for CB so late, but we could always make the case that we *MUST HAVE* CB sooner than later. I doubt the FDA will let it go through quicker either. AFAIK, asian markets dont require Phase III trials so perhaps they could start selling it there and we could just import it?


 Thanks for the link, *hellouser*.

As you suggest, perhaps it would be worth raising awareness of the level of interest in CB-03-01 and suggesting the possibility of releasing earlier in Asian territories?  :Smile:

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## Tomb10

Can we expect that cosmo will come to market with CB-03-01 ever?

because when they had really a solution for mpb, they will earn millions^100 with it..

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## chimera

> Can we expect that cosmo will come to market with CB-03-01 ever?


 Probably. The acne formula is coming like in 2015 or 2016, but the hair loss formula will take a little longer (just a little late for many, many of us).

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## yan

> Can we expect that cosmo will come to market with CB-03-01 ever?
> 
> because when they had really a solution for mpb, they will earn millions^100 with it..


 Why not? Well there is something called FDA which is one of the biggest problems. :P You can`t simply earn millions. There are years and years of clinical trials ahead of every treatment. 

Acne is very likely to hit the markets in 2015 / 2016. Alopecia who knows... Difference is, there was already a proof of concept for acne in europe 2 years ago. Until now, there was no proof of concept for alopecia beside the small one with iontophoresis. So firstly, they need to show evidence that it works for MBP (What they plan to do until early 2015 in a phase 2a study). If it works, it will most likely come to market 2-3 years after this phase 2a study...

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## Phatalis

Sorry but imagine how ****ing funny it would be if you guys figured out the vehicle and cb started working miracles. It'd be the biggest and best middle finger to put up to the industry. "Oh sorry guys you have a finished product finally? Its ok weve already been doing this for yeara thanks anyway though... hope you make money off somebody"

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## stayhopeful

Can someone please explain to me what CB is and what is so significant about it.  If it's so great why don't more people use it, and why does it have to be all sketch buying from underground dealers?

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## lilpauly

> Can someone please explain to me what CB is and what is so significant about it.  If it's so great why don't more people use it, and why does it have to be all sketch buying from underground dealers?


 Well dude Cosmo has a patent on cb and it will not be avail for at least 5 years. I been buying experimental hairloss products for 3 years now I know what's likes to get ****ed by scammers ! I spent at least 15k on all these treatments and I can say the only source I trust is Kane. His cb was tested and its indeed pure.

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## lilpauly

I sent her Kane's HPLC and NMR, along with drap's 3rd party test. 

[her first email] 
I have reviewed the data regarding CB-03-01. The compound is found to be pure based on evaluation of the HPLC chromatogram and NMR spectral data. If you need further insight into the evaluation of this data, please feel free to ask, and I will be happy to provide you with more detail regarding the identification and characterization of CB-03-01 from the data provided.


her second email] 
The NMR from 'Kane' looks good. There are 34 hydrogens in the MF for CD-03-01 which all appear within the integrations of this NMR spectra at the expected ppm absorptions for their respective structural positions. It is from this observation that one can suggest not only is this compound identified, but it is pure.Looking at the second NMR from Kane, we see the absorptions match the independent 3rd party's perfectly,Looks like your compound is there, and is pure. The baseline for all spectra are flat, except for absorptions, and the hydrogens integrate to the number expected, matching the molecular formula.


i will post kanes nmr and the third party later today

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## Californication

From what I can tell from these results (the two graphs), the acne product seems to permeate the skin about 2-6 times less than the cream, correct? 

http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F...25JAN13_v5.pdf

Wonder if that means it would still help us or not.

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## stayhopeful

> Can someone please explain to me what CB is and what is so significant about it.  If it's so great why don't more people use it, and why does it have to be all sketch buying from underground dealers?


 Ok thanks for your reply.  So Kane has legit CB (I wonder where he gets it from)... So it's topical?  And what about efficacy... What have people experienced in terms of efficacy?  What can one reliably expect to accomplish by taking CB, and what are the realistic risks?  Thanks again

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## lilpauly

> From what I can tell from these results (the two graphs), the acne product seems to permeate the skin about 2-6 times less than the cream, correct? 
> 
> http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F...25JAN13_v5.pdf
> 
> Wonder if that means it would still help us or not.


 dude we tried the cream 3 years ago and its no good. if u look atthe ingredients no way in hell its good for the hair. it contains mineral oil whcih will not penetrate the hair shaft and will clong the hair shaft. this is just one terrible ingreident in the cream. btw the price for cb was 340per gram back then lol .

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## lilpauly

> Ok thanks for your reply.  So Kane has legit CB (I wonder where he gets it from)... So it's topical?  And what about efficacy... What have people experienced in terms of efficacy?  What can one reliably expect to accomplish by taking CB, and what are the realistic risks?  Thanks again


 Kane's chemist made it. kane chemist also makes the ru, asc j9. kanes products are VERY pure and contains very little impurties  purifies the compunds 6-8 more times

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## stayhopeful

It is my firm belief that the only prospect for us sufferers in the next couple of years is either regeneration of donor with scarless FUE.. Or if we take matters into our own hands.  No company is going to save us anytime soon, that's for sure .  And each day of suffering cannot be discounted, we shouldn't have to live like this for several more years

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## adam k

> It says 'oil in water vanishing cream'....patent explains water is no good for a CB vehicle if I recall correctly


 If water is no good then why in the following paper:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...11.10332.x/pdf

has water been used? This leads me onto the next question. Apologies if it's been answered before but I am new to this research and just starting. 

The above paper mentions a CB-03-01 1&#37; cream (cetyl alcohol, glyceryl
monostearate, liquid paraffin, propylene glycol, tocopherol,
sodium edetate, polysorbate 80, water). If this has been used in the study then why can't this be used on the scalp such as on the receding hairline?




> Sorry but imagine how ****ing funny it would be if you guys figured out the vehicle and cb started working miracles. It'd be the biggest and best middle finger to put up to the industry. "Oh sorry guys you have a finished product finally? Its ok weve already been doing this for yeara thanks anyway though... hope you make money off somebody"


 This is what I'd like to see happen. As you rightly said it would me a massive F U to the entire industry who are taking the P with their snail pace research, not to mention the FDA which is a joke. 

I started some research last night and came across:

http://www.google.co.uk/patents?hl=e...ration&f=false

this suggests a small diol/triol mixed with a long chain alcohol i.e whats already been mentioned propylene glycol/oleyl alcohol? Was this used by anyone?

I am computing properties of cb-03-01 today and based on properties such as ClogP for example and other parameters I will be doing some more research today on suitable vehicles, in my limited time (I have major deadlines in my other work!)

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## chimera

> Ok thanks for your reply.  So Kane has legit CB (I wonder where he gets it from)... So it's topical?  And what about efficacy... What have people experienced in terms of efficacy?  What can one reliably expect to accomplish by taking CB, and what are the realistic risks?  Thanks again


 People is excited because, for low norwoods it would mean the closest thing to a cure. You see, CB is two times more powerful than finasteride, but it has no side effects. It is the holy gray of MPB antiandrogens, an antiandrogen with local action.

It was sold years some time ago, but it was not the right form. Now, supposedly, we already have the proper form, but we don't have a vehicle.

The "official" CB, will be released unitl like inb 6 years.

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## hellouser

> People is excited because, for low norwoods it would mean the closest thing to a cure. You see, CB is *four* times more powerful than finasteride, but it has no side effects.


 Fixed.

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## Hairismylife

Hellouser you got result from RU, you really quit it?

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## hellouser

> Hellouser you got result from RU, you really quit it?


 I quit using it in May, I had about 1gram or less left. My libido was low.

Right now I'm trialing the dermarolling study and do not want RU to go systemic as wounding the skin with the dermaroller will allow much easier penetration. I took 100mg of RU in 1ml about a week ago and I've since experienced twitching in my testicles and a feeling of them being slightly squeezed. I've had similar symptoms over a year ago but I was NOT dermarolling then and only using about a 10mg of RU in 1ml of isopropanol/PG.

I don't want to have RU go any more systemic than what it already may have. CB should be far superior without any side effects.

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## adam k

Based on the structure of CB 03 01, I came across using DMSO as a potential solvent to dissolve it in and also it appears to be a well established vehicle in the medical world. I came across DMSO BEFORE I searched google and found out that there already existed threads with people apparently using DMI/DMSO as a vehicle. What were the outcomes as theoretically this should work.

http://www.google.com/patents/US4177267

http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/herschler.htm

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....tb34906.x/pdf

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....tb34904.x/pdf

DMSO also has other benefits such as anti inflammatory propeties etc which are all a plus.

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## adam k

This is an interesting thread about people experimenting with DMSO. It appears a high concentration gives negative effects.

http://www.regrowth.com/hair-loss-fo...tion-enhancer/

An interesting comment:  

'Facsinating point on applying the DMSO first, Kingpin, howeverat what percentage? You cant go tossing 99.9% right on the scalp. Perhaps make a 10% DMSO/distilled-water solution?<<<< Ive used the 70% dmso/aloe gel before without any burning but I dont apply it every day either.Here is a book which gives some insight to what concentration dmso is effective at.Compare the 40% dmso/alcohol vs just plain alcohol.Huge difference.I suppose a liquid dmso(99% pure) could be used as a co-vehicle with alcohol at a 60-40 ratio(60% ethyl alcohol-40% dmso). http://books.google.com/books?id=4M7...iCPP73k1g9QT3M Another benefit(in above book) is that DMSO deposits the drug into the skin where it is still found days later! This is ideal since there would always be at least some active substance hanging around the hair follicle acting as a time released treatment of sorts.Also,this could be looked at as a way to incorporate more topicals into the rotation scheme because each one doesnt have to be applied daily DMSO also works to increase penetration of both hydrophilic and hydrophobic substances.What more can you askand its cheap.'

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## lilpauly

> If water is no good then why in the following paper:
> 
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...11.10332.x/pdf
> 
> has water been used? This leads me onto the next question. Apologies if it's been answered before but I am new to this research and just starting. 
> 
> The above paper mentions a CB-03-01 1&#37; cream (cetyl alcohol, glyceryl
> monostearate, liquid paraffin, propylene glycol, tocopherol,
> sodium edetate, polysorbate 80, water). If this has been used in the study then why can't this be used on the scalp such as on the receding hairline?
> ...


  the cream was used for acne and not hair, ingredients no good for hair

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## adam k

> the cream was used for acne and not hair, ingredients no good for hair


 How about using DMSO as a composition of the vehicle lilpauly? Has this been tried?

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## lilpauly

> todah rabah! How about using DMSO as a composition of the vehicle lilpauly? Has this been tried?


 Yes approx 100- 150 used it 2 years ago rwsts were Terrible. It works amazing for the face . It also cost 320 per gram back then on stopmpb ( mpb treatments)

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## lilpauly

*^ was for the cream

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## adam k

> Yes approx 100- 150 used it 2 years ago rwsts were Terrible. It works amazing for the face . It also cost 320 per gram back then on stopmpb ( mpb treatments)


  It seems to me that results and reports for different vehicle concentrations and compositions of CB are too vague and scattered and not objective enough. Results need to be collated in one thread with all different combinations of vehicles and reasons for their failure. Regarding the DMSO trial why were results terrible? Terrible as in adverse reactions to the vehicle or simply not a correct vehicle chemically? And how long do people carry out these trials and what do they define as success?

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## tornadox

If you can actually do this. You could be come a millionaire.

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## lilpauly

> It seems to me that results and reports for different vehicle concentrations and compositions of CB are too vague and scattered and not objective enough. Results need to be collated in one thread with all different combinations of vehicles and reasons for their failure. Regarding the DMSO trial why were results terrible? Terrible as in adverse reactions to the vehicle or simply not a correct vehicle chemically? And how long do people carry out these trials and what do they define as success?


 No man no1 used DMSO only cream 2 years . We used Cosmo acne cream and it very bad

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## Borealis

> If you can actually do this. You could be come a millionaire.


 No you couldn't because it's patented by COSMO.

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## adam k

> If you can actually do this. You could be come a millionaire.


 Money needs to be left out of this (in this case you couldnt as its patented by COSMO). The solution is going to come from amongst ourselves and I think I speak for everyone when I say we all want something to JUST WORK for this god forsaken disease that haunts us every waking hour. 

The difference between these forums and industry is that we are a community and working for each other just as much as ourselves. We are a community who all want the same thing. And in the instance a vehicle is found for cb that works, then this must be kept within the forums as there will be all kinds of negative issues that arise and people who will want this to be stopped just because they cant stand the fact that WE DID IT OURSELVES.

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## adam k

> No man no1 used DMSO only cream 2 years . We used Cosmo acne cream and it very bad


 Yeah I see. Then DMSO needs to be looked into further. There is a thread over on another forum regarding this:

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...hreadid=103957

but the thread went stagnant. Maybe there is some merit to using DMSO as part of the composition of the vehicle. I shall look into this more.

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## tornadox

> No you couldn't because it's patented by COSMO.


 He can selling it to Cosmo.

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## lilpauly

> Yeah I see. Then DMSO needs to be looked into further. There is a thread over on another forum regarding this:
> 
> http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...hreadid=103957
> 
> but the thread went stagnant. Maybe there is some merit to using DMSO as part of the composition of the vehicle. I shall look into this more.


 The thread went stagnant cuz the cb was the wrong form! Kane recently got the right form which dissolves . The gb cb will hopefully get the right form from the lab they are dealing with

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## adam k

> He can selling it to Cosmo.


 Thats not the issue tornadox. COSMO probably have a good working vehicle right now or have good ideas as I type (they can employ a team of world class experienced chemists). The issue is that they are taking too long with the snail pace research and trials and by the time it is released we will have progressed too far in our disease. And historical experience shows that something will probably happen to Cosmo and a product might never be released at all. Therefore as history has shown to be against us we must take upon the role ourselves. 

A little quote that I like that keeps me going:

Frodo - 'I wish the Ring had never come to me, I wish none of this had happened'

Gandalf - 'So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.'

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## adam k

> The thread went stagnant cuz the cb was the wrong form! Kane recently got the right form which dissolves . The gb cb will hopefully get the right form from the lab they are dealing with


 OH right! Has propylene glycol/oleyl alcohol been tried with form 3?

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## hellouser

> OH right! Has propylene glycol/oleyl alcohol been tried with form 3?


 Once I get my CB, I can trial Oleyl/PG. I've got 500ml of Oleyl in my closet waiting to be used for CB  :Smile:

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## clandestine

adam k; Iron dragon will soon be selling a premixed solution of 50% propylene glycol / 50% ethanol for their CB; what are your thoughts on this?

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## yan

Guys is there a possibility that CB doesn`t work in the sense of its impossible to find a vehicle which can deliver CB to the hair follicle? 

I mean it is proven that CB works 100&#37; once reaching the hair follicle and we also know that CB`s molecular weight is around 400, so it should be possible to find a suitable vehicle if we just invest enough time and effort, no?

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## simba

> The thread went stagnant cuz the cb was the wrong form! Kane recently got the right form which dissolves . The gb cb will hopefully get the right form from the lab they are dealing with


 A few guys said that cb didn't work on guys because the vehicle was wrong, is that true or was it just that the cb was the wrong form(or both)? Does the vehicle really matter that much?

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## lilpauly

> A few guys said that cb didn't work on guys because the vehicle was wrong, is that true or was it just that the cb was the wrong form(or both)? Does the vehicle really matter that much?


 Both . The vehicle is game changer , Remember Cosmo didn't use ethanol in the trials , some say including me it harms the cb. Form 1 cb does. It dissolve in anything

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## adam k

> Once I get my CB, I can trial Oleyl/PG. I've got 500ml of Oleyl in my closet waiting to be used for CB


 I didn't know form III had not been tried in PG/OL. So this may work we just don't know yet? It seems like a good combination of solvents and a good foundation and it could always be optimised by adding more stuff to it etc.




> adam k; Iron dragon will soon be selling a premixed solution of 50&#37; propylene glycol / 50% ethanol for their CB; what are your thoughts on this?


 Clan I have a gut feeling that the ethanol has too few carbon atoms and a longer chain alcohol is required such as PG/OL. I may be wrong though.

My more immediate worry is stability issues. I have not yet delved into this properly but there seem to be a few parts of the molecule susceptible to stability problems but again I have just started my research yesterday I need to do more reading.

Clan btw are you the same Clan on another forum that idolises Gandy? lol

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## clandestine

Thanks for the reply Adam, appreciate the insights.

I'm on PHG, SAGA, and here. So, likely not me with the whole worshipping Gandhi thing.

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## Javert

> It is my firm belief that the only prospect for us sufferers in the next couple of years is either *regeneration of donor with scarless FUE.*. Or if we take matters into our own hands.  No company is going to save us anytime soon, that's for sure .  And each day of suffering cannot be discounted, we shouldn't have to live like this for several more years


 +1

----------


## adam k

> Thanks for the reply Adam, appreciate the insights.
> 
> I'm on PHG, SAGA, and here. So, likely not me with the whole worshipping Gandhi thing.


 No probs bro. The guy has the same nick as you so I wondered if it was you. Actually its David Gandy the male model lol. Oh what I wouldn't give to have hair like him. Life is a genetic lottery it is unfair.

----------


## DanWS

> No probs bro. The guy has the same nick as you so I wondered if it was you. Actually its David Gandy the male model lol. Oh what I wouldn't give to have hair like him. Life is a genetic lottery it is unfair.


 Hi adam k I'd like to say thanks for doing this and I wish you the best in your efforts (for all of us). Do you have any kind of schedule for what you hope to carry out/achieve and when by? Thanks again.

----------


## hellouser

*small update*

Just sent payment to Kane for 2 grams of CB. Now its just a matter of time of when it gets shipped and how long until it arrives.

Can't wait!  :Smile:

----------


## Sogeking

I'm gonna sound like a moron, perhaps. However Cosmos anti acne treatment is 1% CB, while the one against hairloss is 5%. If the anti acne one is proven safe and goes to market I plan on using it against hairloss. It might not be as effective as the hairloss one but it still might slow down the hairloss.
Just sayin'...

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> I'm gonna sound like a moron, perhaps. However Cosmos anti acne treatment is 1% CB, while the one against hairloss is 5%. If the anti acne one is proven safe and goes to market I plan on using it against hairloss. It might not be as effective as the hairloss one but it still might slow down the hairloss.
> Just sayin'...


 actually 1% and 5% performed very similar in the hair study with ionto... the acnce cream will probably slow the absorption rate however... but who knows?


http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1...lla201104f.png




click that link for results data

----------


## chimera

> I'm gonna sound like a moron, perhaps. However Cosmos anti acne treatment is 1% CB, while the one against hairloss is 5%. If the anti acne one is proven safe and goes to market I plan on using it against hairloss. It might not be as effective as the hairloss one but it still might slow down the hairloss.
> Just sayin'...


 I think that's what we were all thinking, but apparently, there is a problem. Mark says it has already been used a vehicle which is exactly as the cream cosmo is using for acne, and he says that does not work for hair loss, as it has ingredients which do not pass through the hair shaft, so it won't reach the follcile.


Cosmo (and any other company) would rather have two producnts in the market than only one. Considering all of their resources, do you think they can't find a way so us can't use their acne cream?

----------


## Knockin on NW4

a member on the private forums has used 1% in a cosmo cream clone for over a year and gained nearly all his lost density...  it was the improper form of cb that didnt give results. creams do slow absorption however, so if u are gonna  buy cb powder u may as well not use it in a cream unless u have overly sensitive skin.

----------


## chimera

> a member on the private forums has used 1% in a cosmo cream clone for over a year and gained nearly all his lost density...  it was the improper form of cb that didnt give results. creams do slow absorption however, so if u are gonna  buy cb powder u may as well not use it in a cream unless u have overly sensitive skin.


 
Are you ****ing kidding me? are you serius?, because if that is true, I would be very, very happy. CB for hair loss will come like, unti the end of this damn decade, but CB for acne comes like in two years. I can't wait 6 ****ing years, but I can wait 2 years.


But I just have one question?, how did that guy you're talking about found the proper form?, I mean, isn't the proper form supposed to have been just achieved?, how can he has been on the proper form is that is new?, or are you guys in the private forum really that much ahead of us?

----------


## hellouser

> or are you guys in the private forum really that much ahead of us?


 *shifty eyes*

Yes.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

im not sure on his source. it was before i joined. i think it was mpbtreatments. Kane has good cb now, i wouldnt suggest buying any until around new years when multiple users can post results. if kanes works, u will hear it through the grape vine, then buy it. im always skeptical until i see pics. iron dragon is also taking pre orders in a premixed solution. still, i would save your money and wait .

it is true that we have had many hurdles to jump through getting our lab to get the recipe for cb correct ( not kane, but we paid upfront, then kane got a good batch that has been tested). i wish i could show u his results.  dont get me wrong, they are on par with good fin + min results, but he got terrible sides from fin so that isnt an option for him.  CB works.

----------


## lilpauly

> *shifty eyes*
> 
> Yes.


 No man just follow the threads.

----------


## adam k

There seem to be a few posts deleted if I remember correctly.

----------


## adam k

> Hi adam k I'd like to say thanks for doing this and I wish you the best in your efforts (for all of us). Do you have any kind of schedule for what you hope to carry out/achieve and when by? Thanks again.


 Thanks Dan I appreciate it. Theoretically based on some patents, journals and general chemical knowledge, PG/OL should be a good vehicle for CB form III. To my knowledge this has only been tried with previous incorrect forms so the PG/OL vehicle may work, its a case of trials now (Hellouser has ordered the correct form from Kane). In the event this does work maybe it can be optimised further with the addition of more solvents but one step at a time. 

I am looking into using computational modelling to simulate dissolution studies however this is super advanced stuff and I am teaching myself it as I go. Also dissolution is relatively simple in terms of choosing solvents; the problem from what I gather (someone correct me if I'm wrong) lies in *penetration* to the follicle. As a pure chemist I haven't in depth knowledge of anatomy so I need to see what constitutes a good penetration vehicle. One I have come across is DMSO or DMI or both in conjunction. CB as a steroid will certainly dissolve in this and DMSO is also currently used in the medical world as a good penetrating vehicle.

Maybe PG/OL could be optimised with the addition of DMSO/DMI however at a certain point chemical modelling and theoretical knowledge will not give any more information and a clinical trial is required. Pharmaceutical companies have all kinds of tests they can carry out with complex advanced techniques and world class experienced staff. However we are lacking all of these so trials are the only way we can gauge success.

----------


## hellouser

*small update*

CB from Kane was shipped yesterday. Estimated arrival is August 20th.

----------


## locke999

> *small update*
> 
> CB from Kane was shipped yesterday. Estimated arrival is August 20th.


 Praying to God that its successful for you.

----------


## hellouser

> Praying to God that its successful for you.


 I'm praying to god its successful for EVERYONE.

Time to even the playing field with men that have hair, gotta reclaim the women we should be flirting with.

----------


## Westonci

Thank you so much Adam K for taking the time to do something about this disease. If you do end up finding something that actually works. Everyman on earth will be indebted to you!

----------


## thechamp

> I'm praying to god its successful for EVERYONE.
> 
> Time to even the playing field with men that have hair, gotta reclaim the women we should be flirting with.


 You will have more luck rubbing donkey shit on your head the cb has no chance of working!!

----------


## john2399

> *small update*
> 
> CB from Kane was shipped yesterday. Estimated arrival is August 20th.


 Hellouser, how much stuff do you actually take ? lol it seems like you are on every single treatment to fight this shitty disease, which i dont blame.

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser, how much stuff do you actually take ? lol it seems like you are on every single treatment to fight this shitty disease, which i dont blame.


 I've actually had limited use of stuff to fight my hair loss. To date, I've only done the following;

- Nizoral
- Saw Palmetto
- Minoxidil
- RU58841
- Dermarolling/Wounding

I'll soon be trying CB as you know. I've never touched finasteride, avodart, spiro, laser combs, etc. I only try the stuff that works and is _relatively_ safe... and when I say that, I don't include Finasteride since its dick poison.

----------


## 534623

> A little bit about me. I am a PhD student at a leading institution in the world. I live in the UK ...


 Oh no - Thomas Whitfield II ...

----------


## 534623

> I've actually had limited use of stuff to fight my hair loss. To date, I've only done the following;
> 
> - Nizoral
> - Saw Palmetto
> - Minoxidil
> - RU58841
> - Dermarolling/Wounding
> 
> [...] *I only try the stuff that works ...*


 Sure. I mean, you would be an idiot if you would try stuff that doesn't work.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

how do we afford blackmarket cb though? the shit is like 400 bucks a month

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> how do we afford blackmarket cb though? the shit is like 400 bucks a month


 ummmmm...... no...

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> ummmmm...... no...


 how much then?

----------


## thechamp

What's the point in putting cb on your head without the correct Delivery??

----------


## yan

> What's the point in putting cb on your head without the correct Delivery??


 This negative attitude, unbelievable! Did you read the topic title? This thread is about searching a suitable vehicle through trial and error and some scientific informations...

----------


## adam k

> Thank you so much Adam K for taking the time to do something about this disease. If you do end up finding something that actually works. Everyman on earth will be indebted to you!


 I appreciate it brother, we are all in this together. We are a community who are doing this for the benefit of everyone just as much as we are doing it for ourselves. We are doing it with selflessness and pure intentions and THAT is what makes us unique and differ from the ulterior motivated, money hungry hair loss industry.




> *small update*
> 
> CB from Kane was shipped yesterday. Estimated arrival is August 20th.


 People here have much to be thankful for Hellouser. As I've said before, pharmaceutical companies have all kinds of tests they can carry out with complex advanced techniques and world class experienced staff. However we are lacking all of these so trials are the only way we can gauge success and Hellouser is leading the way. His motivation and courage is admirable.

----------


## chimera

> What's the point in putting cb on your head without the correct Delivery??


 That's exactly what we're trying to find dude! :Smile:

----------


## chimera

Hellouser, I know you're going to star CB soon. Are you right now on RU?, if so, for how long pal?

----------


## ragsta

I came across this, any good for cb ? transdermal carrier for raw powder hormones. 


http://phfsupplements.com/salvo-presale.html

weights of drugs:

Trestolone acetate : Molecular Weight: 330.465
DESOXY T ACETATE POWDER: Molecular Weight: 272.43

----------


## adam k

> I came across this, any good for cb ? transdermal carrier for raw powder hormones. 
> 
> 
> http://phfsupplements.com/salvo-presale.html
> 
> weights of drugs:
> 
> Trestolone acetate : Molecular Weight: 330.465
> DESOXY T ACETATE POWDER: Molecular Weight: 272.43


 I have also been interested in transdermal steroidal delivery systems for a while now. 

First of all I want to address something. From the structure of CB-03-01, I dont think small amounts of water will affect the stability of the compound. The log P of CB is around 3.73 which indicate that it is insoluble in water but stability wise, any potential issues arise on C-17 regarding the ester group.  Ester hydrolysis can occur, with the ester breaking down into alcohols and carboxylic acids. However hydrolysis is quite a slow and a very reversible reaction; without acid or base to "push" the reaction, it tends to be very insignificant.  Also it is a tertiary ester which means attack by water molecules could be hindered so even better.  However enzyme catalyzed hydrolysis CAN occur as the body has lots of enzymes that actively hydrolyze esters. I am a pure chemist (so someone correct me if Im wrong) but isnt that the beauty of CB as once it hits the bloodstream it changes to an inactive form.

From what I see the transdermal steroid carrier seems okay and viable. The carrier is a long chain alcohol which is good for hydrophobic molecules and CB is log P 3.73 which is quite hydrophobic.

----------


## hellouser

> I have also been interested in transdermal steroidal delivery systems for a while now. 
> 
> First of all I want to address something. From the structure of CB-03-01, I dont think small amounts of water will affect the stability of the compound. The log P of CB is around 3.73 which indicate that it is insoluble in water but stability wise, any potential issues arise on C-17 regarding the ester group.  Ester hydrolysis can occur, with the ester breaking down into alcohols and carboxylic acids. However hydrolysis is quite a slow and a very reversible reaction; without acid or base to "push" the reaction, it tends to be very insignificant.  Also it is a tertiary ester which means attack by water molecules could be hindered so even better.  However enzyme catalyzed hydrolysis CAN occur as the body has lots of enzymes that actively hydrolyze esters. I am a pure chemist (so someone correct me if Im wrong) but isnt that the beauty of CB as once it hits the bloodstream it changes to an inactive form.
> 
> From what I see the transdermal steroid carrier seems okay and viable. The carrier is a long chain alcohol which is good for hydrophobic molecules and CB is log P 3.73 which is quite hydrophobic.


 Great stuff Adam!

One nagging question though; can CB in any way affect libido? And, given that its a steroid, what would its potential be to cause skin atrophy when applied at 10mg per 1ml once a day? Any concerns?

----------


## Westonci

This is probably going to sound really dumb (i have no scientific background).

I was wondering could we use dermarolling as a way to deliver the Cb-03-01 without having to use any creams or what not.

----------


## chimera

> This is probably going to sound really dumb (i have no scientific background).
> 
> I was wondering could we use dermarolling as a way to deliver the Cb-03-01 without having to use any creams or what not.


 No, you can't. Because CB comes in powder form.

----------


## mari0s

> From what I see the transdermal steroid carrier seems okay and viable. The carrier is a long chain alcohol which is good for hydrophobic molecules and CB is log P 3.73 which is quite hydrophobic.


 Hi i don't know if could be useful but from were i live it's been often used in topical lotions made by pharmacies with good results a similar steroid: cyproterone acetate and the veichle used is transcutol at 5%  + alchol 85°

----------


## adam k

I have decided to make a post (which explains in understandable terms) what makes a good vehicle for drug delivery through the skin. I have collated information from several journals which required my institutional login and made a list of component carriers which I feel is important for penetration of CB-03-01 as a compound that has a molecular weight that is nearing Lipinskis rule of 500. I have tried to compile information from which we can readily produce carriers ourselves as we do not have access to materials and methods used by pharmaceutical companies.

*A brief explanation of what we are trying to penetrate:*

Vehicles designed to enhance drug delivery through the skin must incorporate specific elements that improve the ability of the delivery system to overcome the barrier posed by the stratum corneum. 

*Structure of the skin: its barrier properties:* Human skin is, on average, 0.5 mm thick and is composed of four main layers: the stratum corneum (SC), viable epidermis, dermis and subcutaneous tissue. 

*Stratum corneum:* The thick (1020 mm) surface layer, the SC, is highly hydrophobic. Because of its highly organized structure, the SC is the major permeability barrier to external materials, and is regarded as the rate-limiting factor in the penetration of therapeutic agents through the skin. 

*Viable epidermis:* The role of the viable epidermis in skin barrier function is mainly related to the intercellular lipid channels and to several partitioning phenomena. Depending on their solubility, drugs can partition from layer to layer after diffusing through the SC.

*Dermis and hypodermis:*  Hair follicles, sebaceous glands and sweat glands are found here and might serve as additional specific, albeit fairly limited, pathways for drug absorption (*IONTOPHORESIS*). In some cases, for example, hair follicles might act as target sites for drug delivery. This route is via the hair follicles and sebaceous glands and is called the shunt or appendageal route. Iontophoretic drug delivery uses an electrical charge to drive molecules into the skin primarily via the shunt routes as they provide less electrical resistance, and vesicular delivery and this is why COSMO achieved such good results with this device as it reaches the receptor site immediately and directly.

*Improvement of drug flux by chemical enhancers:* Transdermal drug delivery requires that suitable quantities of drug be transported through the skin using penetration enhancer compounds and physical techniques. Penetration enhancers, in general, promote drug diffusion by disturbing the structure of the SC and/or deeper layers. 

*Solvents:*  Many harsh solvents and chemicals have been shown experimentally to compromise the epidermal barrier, resulting in enhanced drug delivery however they are not fit for pharmaceutical use. I have found the following mixtures that are unfit: acetone and ether mixtures, chloroform-methanol (2:1) mixture, hexane-methanol (2:3) mixture, acetone/ petroleum ether mixtures and finally 2:1 mixture of chloroform-methanol.

*Pharmaceutically acceptable enhancers:* 

I will present this as the following. The class of the enhancer (bold), followed by representative compounds (italic) and their mechanism of interaction with skin and enhancement of drug permeability:

*Water:*

_Hydrating and occlusive (meaning air and water tight) topical preparations-_ Hydrates the SC, evidence for increasing permeability of both hydrophilic and lipophilic compounds, increases fluidity or  disorder of intercellular bilayers.

_Occlusive dressings (meaning air and water tight)-_ occlusive dressings and vehicles prevent water loss from skin and provide full hydration

*Organic solvents:* 

_Alcohols (ethanol) _ co -transports with the drug through the lipid channels, partial extraction of lipids

_Polyols (PG) -_ replaces bound water in the intercellular space, enhances penetration of lipophilic drugs

_Sulfoxides (DMSO) _ increases lipid fluidity and disrupts lipid packing

_Pyrrolidones -_ interacts with both the keratin and lipid component of the SC

*Fatty acids:*

_Oleic acid etc -_ Increases fluidity of the intercellular lipids: shorter chain (C1012) and branched or unsaturated chain fatty acids are more effective than longer chain saturated fatty acids; the vehicle used (e.g. PG) might be synergistic.

*Terpenes:*

_Ascaridole, 1,8-Cineol, Menthol etc -_ Disrupts intercellular lipid order; increases electrical conductivity, indicates the opening of polar pathways in SC.

*Surfactants:* 

_Polysorbates etc -_ Penetrates into skin, micellar solubilization of SC lipid

*Azone:*

_Thiazone etc -_ Disrupts skin lipids in both the head group and tail region

*Phosphollipids (liposomes) [More on this in another post)*

From the above you can see why PG/OL is one theoretically viable combination and why it is spoken of often. Also you now know the different class of enhancers which could improve delivery. A suitable vehicle is going to emerge that has a combination of the above in differing compositions and concentrations. I have tried to use representative compounds that are commercially avaible to some extent however other similar compounds that are more commercially availible can also be used.

----------


## adam k

> Great stuff Adam!
> 
> One nagging question though; can CB in any way affect libido? And, given that its a steroid, what would its potential be to cause skin atrophy when applied at 10mg per 1ml once a day? Any concerns?


 Thanks bro. CB shouldn't affect libido as it is applied topically and is an androgen antagonist. From what I gather the beauty of this compound is that it metabolises to an inactive form when it detaches from the receptor. This is just from what I have seen from some reading, I don't know anything more about this, as its not my area of expertise. Similarly I couldn't answer whether it would cause skin atrophy over long term usage as I'm a pure chemist. However it has been used in trials by Cosmo and passed safety phases right?

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> No, you can't. Because CB comes in powder form.


 So how do we use CB on our heads if its a powder? Do we eat it with fried chicken, or mix it with Gatorade and drink it?

----------


## tmw

so Adam, is plain words, what can be idea for a proper vehicle? why do you consider the acetone unfit? In EU many topicals are made with acetone and PPG with pretty good results

----------


## chimera

> So how do we use CB on our heads if its a powder? Do we eat it with fried chicken, or mix it with Gatorade and drink it?


 No genius. You mix the powder with a compound which serves as a vehicle, which one? we don't know yet, that's what people in this thread is tring to find.

----------


## Westonci

> No, you can't. Because CB comes in powder form.


 Sorry another stupid question.

So what would happen if you just put the powder on your head, after dermarolling.

Wouldnt the powder make its way into or near the hair follicle if you used a 1.5 -2 mm dermaroller.

----------


## hellouser

> Sorry another stupid question.
> 
> So what would happen if you just put the powder on your head, after dermarolling.
> 
> Wouldnt the powder make its way into or near the hair follicle if you used a 1.5 -2 mm dermaroller.


 Nothing, it would just sit there. It needs to break down and dissolve into a molecule lighter than 500 dalton as thats typically the most skin will allow. Dermarolling/wounding should (and likely does) allow much better penetration with heavier molecules however raw powder isnt going to do anything for you.

Not sure why youre asking about this though, it almost seems as if you want to skip the whole ethanol/pg or oleyl/pg vehicle, its absolutely vital. The only way you'd be able to skirt around this is through injections (mesogun/diabetic needle) or iontophoresis.

----------


## rdawg

sooo couldnt we just simply get CB, mix it with each of the vehicles that adam listed above and see/test which one gives it a molecular weight under 500?

Isn't there a way to measure that?

or am I missing something here?

----------


## chimera

We could end up using a vehicle which affects the CB composition, rendering it useless, we don't want that to happen.

CB is not so cheap you know?, trying in every vehicle would take much money, which I'm sure not many around here are willing to risk.

Even worse, trying every vehicle would take a lot of time.

----------


## adam k

> sooo couldnt we just simply get CB, mix it with each of the vehicles that adam listed above and see/test which one gives it a molecular weight under 500?
> 
> Isn't there a way to measure that?
> 
> or am I missing something here?


 It is not like that at all. The molecular weight of CB remains the same (402) regardless what vehicle it is in. We are looking for 2 factors for a successfull vehicle system: 1) solubility 2) penetration. 




> We could end up using a vehicle which affects the CB composition, rendering it useless, we don't want that to happen.
> 
> CB is not so cheap you know?, trying in every vehicle would take much money, which I'm sure not many around here are willing to risk.
> 
> Even worse, trying every vehicle would take a lot of time.


 I know bro but we have not got access to tests such as these:

http://www.cyprotex.com/transdermalpermeability/

I have spent all day today doing computer simulations on skin permeability but software like this is not commercially availible not to mention extremely niche and the one I have managed to use it pretty crude and it will only let me run one vehicle at a time. Even that is producing some errors which is driving me nuts. I can say with a degree of certainty that multi component simulation testing of vehicles CAN NOT be done by even the most advanced amongst us. Trials are the only way.

This is not as bad as it sounds because PG/OL is quite promising in itself. Then gradually more components can be added like DMSO or fatty acids which shouldn't render it useless but only increase efficacy.

It's pissing me off because pharmaceutical companies have all kinds of in vitro tests that would be able to determine a perfect vehicle. They could work it out real quick. We are working with our hands tied behind our backs.

----------


## chimera

Adam K, my last post was not against you, I was replying to rdawg.

I mean, I know you're trying hard to help us all and I'm very thankful for that.

----------


## adam k

> Adam K, my last post was not against you, I was replying to rdawg.
> 
> I mean, I know you're trying hard to help us all and I'm very thankful for that.


 Oh I was just reponding to your message because it had some very valid points bro. Sorry I don't know if it came across the wrong way I meant that I'm pissed with the situation as COSMO can do all of this and testing and trials in an accelerated time frame but they are taking their sweet time.

----------


## rdawg

> We could end up using a vehicle which affects the CB composition, rendering it useless, we don't want that to happen.
> 
> CB is not so cheap you know?, trying in every vehicle would take much money, which I'm sure not many around here are willing to risk.
> 
> Even worse, trying every vehicle would take a lot of time.


 alright alright makes sense.

I agree, but obviously these tests are meant for someone who has some cash to spare.

Either way, what are our top candidates for vehicles adam? Can we test solubility and penetration?

why not start with the obvious ones like ethanol?

----------


## adam k

> Either way, what are our top candidates for vehicles adam? Can we test solubility and penetration?
> 
> why not start with the obvious ones like ethanol?


 Propylene Glycol/Oleyl Alcohol
and the one by Iron Dragon PG/Ethanol. I also think something like this is promising http://phfsupplements.com/salvo-presale.html

I've realised in my previous post there are some vehicles that arent suitable for a liquid solution (as that is what we are after) as they are for a cream formulation. I'll amend the post in a bit.

Also derma rolling should make any absorption even better. It is promising stuff. I am going to start derma rolling myself soon.

----------


## UK_

PG/Ethanol should be fine its worked well for practically everything else.

Adam what do you think about the side effects profile for CB?  The fact that it converts into a benign substance once in the bloodstream?  Do you think side effects are completely avoidable with CB due to this?

----------


## GuyFromUK

The key to the puzzle of which vehicle to use will be held by someone working for Cosmo. The pharmacists working at Cosmo will have a far better idea than anyone on the forums on whether a) CB actually works for hairloss, and b) which vehicle to use

If people on the forums really want to go to any length to solve hairloss then why not have 1 person fly out to the Cosmo office. If you wait outside their office at the time they all finish work then we can ask their staff directly about their thoughts on using CB for hairloss. I am sure a little brown envelope with a thousand dollars cash in would be enough to encourage someone working there to tell us everything we need to know.

Any volunteers?  :Smile:

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> The key to the puzzle of which vehicle to use will be held by someone working for Cosmo. The pharmacists working at Cosmo will have a far better idea than anyone on the forums on whether a) CB actually works for hairloss, and b) which vehicle to use
> 
> If people on the forums really want to go to any length to solve hairloss then why not have 1 person fly out to the Cosmo office. If you wait outside their office at the time they all finish work then we can ask their staff directly about their thoughts on using CB for hairloss. I am sure a little brown envelope with a thousand dollars cash in would be enough to encourage someone working there to tell us everything we need to know.
> 
> Any volunteers?


 
lol, probably a stretch. Somebody should just call their marketing dept posing as a reporter looking to give them PR.

like some chemist making 80-130k is going to risk getting fired for a thousand bucks in an envelope.

----------


## hellouser

> The key to the puzzle of which vehicle to use will be held by someone working for Cosmo. The pharmacists working at Cosmo will have a far better idea than anyone on the forums on whether a) CB actually works for hairloss, and b) which vehicle to use
> 
> If people on the forums really want to go to any length to solve hairloss then why not have 1 person fly out to the Cosmo office. If you wait outside their office at the time they all finish work then we can ask their staff directly about their thoughts on using CB for hairloss. I am sure a little brown envelope with a thousand dollars cash in would be enough to encourage someone working there to tell us everything we need to know.
> 
> Any volunteers?


 Lets suppose we even did try to take the illegal route of bribery:

1) Their location for the clinical trials for CB may be in a different locale
2) How would we know that the vehicle released by someone would be legitimate. It would take months before the results could be verified by others using Kane's or Iron Dragon's CB.

----------


## greatjob!

> The key to the puzzle of which vehicle to use will be held by someone working for Cosmo. The pharmacists working at Cosmo will have a far better idea than anyone on the forums on whether a) CB actually works for hairloss, and b) which vehicle to use
> 
> If people on the forums really want to go to any length to solve hairloss then why not have 1 person fly out to the Cosmo office. If you wait outside their office at the time they all finish work then we can ask their staff directly about their thoughts on using CB for hairloss. I am sure a little brown envelope with a thousand dollars cash in would be enough to encourage someone working there to tell us everything we need to know.
> 
> Any volunteers?


 They'd loose their job and probably be sued, so I doubt anyone that has that knowledge at Cosmo would risk their no doubt very large salary and benefits package for $1000 or to help some balding stranger.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

yeah plus you just committed conspiracy to commit corporate espionage.

----------


## hellouser

> They'd loose their job and probably be sued, so I doubt anyone that has that knowledge at Cosmo would risk their no doubt very large salary and benefits package for $1000 or to help some balding stranger.


 Would only happen if they got caught.

I have no hopes for this though to even happen, i'd consider it as a final attempt/hail mary but the sum would need to be a LOT higher than $1,000.

----------


## GuyFromUK

Haha, I don't think you would be breaking the law if you paid someone to tell you if their product works for hairloss. It's not like I would be using the information for a competing company.

Just to clarify though I am not really going to fly to the Cosmo office with a back pocket full of dollars, the post was a bit tongue in cheek.

----------


## hellouser

> Haha, I don't think you would be breaking the law if you paid someone to tell you if their product works for hairloss. It's not like I would be using the information for a competing company.
> 
> Just to clarify though I am not really going to fly to the Cosmo office with a back pocket full of dollars, the post was a bit tongue in cheek.


 You'd definitely be breaking on contract of confidentiality with Cosmo Pharmaceuticals. You can be sure as hell they would take you to court for that and make you cover any and all damages by your actions.

----------


## adam k

> PG/Ethanol should be fine its worked well for practically everything else.
> 
> Adam what do you think about the side effects profile for CB?  The fact that it converts into a benign substance once in the bloodstream?  Do you think side effects are completely avoidable with CB due to this?


 Well we know that CB-03-01 competes at the androgen-receptor level without inhibiting the skin 5AR-reductase. Therefore as only the receptors are blocked DHT is still free to go around and do what else it does but it just cant bind. 

The steroid easily penetrates human skin (said by Cosmo) and is quickly and extensively metabolized to free inactive cortexolone by enzyme catalysed hydrolysis (see scheme):



thus being devoid of systemic antiandrogenic effects. I'm not sure (so somebody correct me if I'm wrong) but I think the drug makes its way through the skin and those that reach the receptors in the active form bind and block DHT from binding. Then it stays there for however long, unbinds and when it comes into contact with an enzyme it is metabolised to cortexolone. 

The toxicological profile showed that CB-03-01 is well tolerated in rat and rabbit in repeated subcutaneous and dermal toxicities, is not mutagenic (I have ran numerous crude simulations to confirm it is not mutagenic), and is not a skin sensitizer (Theres been concerns of skin atrophy but wouldnt have Cosmo picked this up?) . In adult male volunteers a single skin application of various volumes of CB-03-01 1% cream was very well tolerated with negligible absorption in the bloodstream. Even were it to reach the bloodstream it would be converted to its inactive form I think. And lets just say it binds to a receptor elsewhere in the body (I dont know if this is even possible, I'm just guessing here) then wouldnt it just dissociate after a while and get converted to an inactive form? Also a very small amount would reach this far if it did and there are numerous receptors so I don't think this would be significant.

----------


## mari0s

> If people on the forums really want to go to any length to solve hairloss then why not have 1 person fly out to the Cosmo office. If you wait outside their office at the time they all finish work then we can ask their staff directly about their thoughts on using CB for hairloss. I am sure a little brown envelope with a thousand dollars cash in would be enough to encourage someone working there to tell us everything we need to know.
> 
> Any volunteers?


 1) This is incredibly racist, people have passion for their work, you know? Not everyone sell his dignity for a bunch of money

2)Nobody cares of you dollars since euros is 30% more valued

3)If you really want, you can fly yourself, Milan is just an 1hr away from UK but you need to hurry up for your return flight before the police arrest you for bribery

----------


## greatjob!

> 1) This is incredibly racist


 Uh i think it was a stupid idea, but I fail to see how his idea was racist.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

please stay on topic

----------


## greatjob!

> please stay on topic


 yes sir master sir

----------


## mari0s

> Uh i think it was a stupid idea, but I fail to see how his idea was racist.


 since Cosmo is an italian company they must be corruptible

----------


## mari0s

> thus being devoid of systemic antiandrogenic effects. I'm not sure (so somebody correct me if I'm wrong) but I think the drug makes its way through the skin and those that reach the receptors in the active form bind and block DHT from binding.


 Hi Adam i've seen you have not consider the idea to use transcutol since it's used from various dermatologists as carrier in a similar steroid (for function not as molecular structure) with a similar mw and p log as Cyproterone acetate. Can i ask you why?

----------


## greatjob!

> since Cosmo is an italian company they must be corruptible


 That's a pretty big assumption to make considering he made no mention of race. I didn't even know they were an Italian company and I'm sure their company does not only employ Italians. You should probably wait until someone says something racist before calling them racist, just saying.

Now I will go back on topic so I don't upset hiilikeyourbeard, the forum police

----------


## Arashi

> I am sure a little brown envelope with a thousand dollars cash in would be enough to encourage someone working there to tell us everything we need to know.


 Sure. People risk their good paying job and prison all the time for $1000.

----------


## Californication

For those of you on the other forums, how many people would you estimate are trialing CB right now with PG/ethanol or PG/oleyl? Just want to know whether this stuff is at least being tested by some people already and that we'll at least have some knowledge of what doesn't work sometime this year/early next year perhaps.

----------


## adam k

> For those of you on the other forums, how many people would you estimate are trialing CB right now with PG/ethanol or PG/oleyl? Just want to know whether this stuff is at least being tested by some people already and that we'll at least have some knowledge of what doesn't work sometime this year/early next year perhaps.


 I have to say in terms of interesting information and threads on experimentals it is miles ahead of anywhere else. After browsing for a while it seems like it is still early days and also form III has not been around for long. There are quite a few educated guys in Science in that place too.

----------


## UK_

Hi Adam, is it possible for you to test the content of Iron Dragon CB for purity?

This would be so useful for us all...

----------


## hellouser

> Hi Adam, is it possible for you to test the content of Iron Dragon CB for purity?
> 
> This would be so useful for us all...


 Oh, that would be good!

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, I've got some *good news* for all of those who are desperately waiting on CB:

I don't know if you are following the recent news regarding withdrawal of some contraceptive pills from the market, particularly those with anti-androgenic properties which were being used for the treatment of acne vulgaris. These events unfolded following recent reports of fatalities in Europe due to clotting and cardiac ischaemic attacks associated with anti-androgenic effects of these pills! The contraceptive pills being investigated are Yasmin, Yaz, and Dianne!!!

As of today, oral contraceptive anti-androgens are being reviewed in terms of benefit vs risks in the treatment of acne vulgaris in female patients! 

Now, what this means is that all potential competition for CB-03-01 is being wiped out! Cosmo pharmaceuticals will have the entire market share to themselves by having a topical anti-androgen with no potential systemic activity.

You can be more than certain that the recent events will be a huge boost for Cosmo to release their product onto the market ASAP to maximise their profits and once that happens we should definitely have its MPB version available within 2 years of its acne formula.

Good news is rare these days  :Smile:  Let's make the most of it

----------


## adam k

> Hi Adam, is it possible for you to test the content of Iron Dragon CB for purity?
> 
> This would be so useful for us all...


 I could have done that very easily a year ago when I was doing my Masters as I had access to them with no one looking over my shoulder. However I got caught running a 1HNMR test on some anabolic steroids and had an awkward conversation with the lab supervisor.

Now my PhD is in computational chemistry and I am in a different research centre so it would be harder for me to do however I will ask a few of my friends in organic chemistry if they could do this for me.




> Hey guys, I've got some *good news* for all of those who are desperately waiting on CB:


 Desmond that is great news I hope that is what happens.

----------


## hellouser

> Hey guys, I've got some *good news* for all of those who are desperately waiting on CB:
> 
> I don't know if you are following the recent news regarding withdrawal of some contraceptive pills from the market, particularly those with anti-androgenic properties which were being used for the treatment of acne vulgaris. These events unfolded following recent reports of fatalities in Europe due to clotting and cardiac ischaemic attacks associated with anti-androgenic effects of these pills! The contraceptive pills being investigated are Yasmin, Yaz, and Dianne!!!
> 
> As of today, oral contraceptive anti-androgens are being reviewed in terms of benefit vs risks in the treatment of acne vulgaris in female patients! 
> 
> Now, what this means is that all potential competition for CB-03-01 is being wiped out! Cosmo pharmaceuticals will have the entire market share to themselves by having a topical anti-androgen with no potential systemic activity.
> 
> You can be more than certain that the recent events will be a huge boost for Cosmo to release their product onto the market ASAP to maximise their profits and once that happens we should definitely have its MPB version available within 2 years of its acne formula.
> ...


 That should be followed up by health ministry being lenient on their trials and push through their product in a speed manner if others can't get the benefit of an anti-androgen. What are those in need supposed to do now? Wait forever as if its the FDA?

Something needs to give, we're all losing ground here and time is against us. Eventually we're going to die and complete a life where society has GIMPED us all throughout for both being bald as well as trying to fight baldness.

Anyways, thanks for the update Desmond.

----------


## hellouser

> I could have done that very easily a year ago when I was doing my Masters as I had access to them with no one looking over my shoulder. However I got caught running a 1HNMR test on some anabolic steroids and had an awkward conversation with the lab supervisor.


 Is it really possible to check for purity with a dissolved compound? Iron Dragon ships their CB premixed in ethanol/pg.

----------


## UK_

> Hey guys, I've got some *good news* for all of those who are desperately waiting on CB:
> 
> I don't know if you are following the recent news regarding withdrawal of some contraceptive pills from the market, particularly those with anti-androgenic properties which were being used for the treatment of acne vulgaris. These events unfolded following recent reports of fatalities in Europe due to clotting and cardiac ischaemic attacks associated with anti-androgenic effects of these pills! The contraceptive pills being investigated are Yasmin, Yaz, and Dianne!!!
> 
> As of today, oral contraceptive anti-androgens are being reviewed in terms of benefit vs risks in the treatment of acne vulgaris in female patients! 
> 
> Now, what this means is that all potential competition for CB-03-01 is being wiped out! Cosmo pharmaceuticals will have the entire market share to themselves by having a topical anti-androgen with no potential systemic activity.
> 
> You can be more than certain that the recent events will be a huge boost for Cosmo to release their product onto the market ASAP to maximise their profits and once that happens we should definitely have its MPB version available within 2 years of its acne formula.
> ...


 This post has just made me more paranoid about CB and anti-androgens.

 :Confused: 

Also, is that Ken Washenik in the gif carrying the keytar?

----------


## Westonci

Lets say in the absolute best case scenario, we find the right vehicle for delivering CB-03-01.

And lets say it actually does work in stopping hair loss.

What will this mean?

Will their be a huge horde of balding guys buying CB-03-01 from kane or these shops. And if so..........
Will there be a supply and demand issue, since its probably not being mass produced?
Will Cosmo try and sue Kane, and try and stop them from selling CB-03-01?

----------


## hellouser

> Lets say in the absolute best case scenario, we find the right vehicle for delivering CB-03-01.
> 
> And lets say it actually does work in stopping hair loss.
> 
> What will this mean?
> 
> Will their be a huge horde of balding guys buying CB-03-01 from kane or these shops. And if so..........
> Will there be a supply and demand issue, since its probably not being mass produced?
> Will Cosmo try and sue Kane, and try and stop them from selling CB-03-01?


 Keep it on the downlow and Cosmo won't do shit. Otherwise, buy a LARGE supply of CB to hold you through for the next several years and store the compound in your freezer.

----------


## adam k

> Is it really possible to check for purity with a dissolved compound? Iron Dragon ships their CB premixed in ethanol/pg.


 In theory yes but it might be a bit messy. Deutrated solvents are normally used which clean up noise. 

If you knew the amount of each solvent respectively it would help let you know the concentration of CB as you can base the integral on them if thats  what you also want to know. As long as you can see the solvent peaks and you know where they are you can just forget about them if you are able to characterise them.

Ethanol shouldnt be much of an issue, the propylene glycol might cover up some of the peaks though, I'll check the chemical shifts of CB in a bit. The Ethanol can also be removed using a rotavap leaving behind only PG. *IF* the PG can also be removed then the Cb will be obtained in powder form and this can be dissolved in CDCl3 to produce a clean spectrum.




> Lets say in the absolute best case scenario, we find the right vehicle for delivering CB-03-01.
> 
> And lets say it actually does work in stopping hair loss.
> 
> What will this mean?
> 
> Will their be a huge horde of balding guys buying CB-03-01 from kane or these shops. And if so..........
> Will there be a supply and demand issue, since its probably not being mass produced?
> Will Cosmo try and sue Kane, and try and stop them from selling CB-03-01?


 I think if it actually works with no issues then something like this will not be supressed and lots of 'Kanes' will spring up who will begin to produce CB and Cosmo will not be able to keep up with the lawsuits. It will serve Cosmo right for taking their sweet time and hopefully will give them a kick up the backside to market one themselves quicker.

----------


## Winston

Please keep this thread on topic- ALL off topic posts will be removed. Please refer to our posting policies: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?p=126975

----------


## hellouser

> I think if it actually works with no issues then something like this will not be supressed and lots of 'Kanes' will spring up who will begin to produce CB and Cosmo will not be able to keep up with the lawsuits. It will serve Cosmo right for taking their sweet time and hopefully will give them a kick up the backside to market one themselves quicker.


 There are also the lawyer fees they'd need to cover for each lawsuit but more importantly, TIME. They'd be wasting a LOT of time on it and should focus more on selling a legitimate form of CB for hair loss. The faster they do that, the faster I can post make posts like this one:

----------


## hellouser

Adam K:

This may be a bit out of your field but, I may as well as since your far more educated on chemistry/biology than me, but...

If CB-03-01 is supposed to bind to the receptor and block DHT from affecting the follicle, how long would CB be bound to the receptor? lilpauly says Cosmo is going to recommend twice daily applications, but as with Minox and Finasteride, the recommended doses aren't necessary, in fact Propecia is sold at 5mg but has the same effect as 1.25mg.

Do you think CB could be effective for more than 24 hours?

----------


## brunobald

Cosmo prob love the fact we are experimenting. Free marketing and trials, I wouldn't be surprised if they released the vehicle to help speed things up. if this works I doubt they will care about the small minority that buy from the black market. Maybe someone should get on touch with a proposition.

----------


## Westonci

> Cosmo prob love the fact we are experimenting. Free marketing and trials, I wouldn't be surprised if they released the vehicle to help speed things up. if this works I doubt they will care about the small minority that buy from the black market. Maybe someone should get on touch with a proposition.


 Maybe the scientist, but that asshole lawyers and businessmen dont give two shits about helping us baldies. They just want to make as much money as possible. If they see us as a threat they might do something. Hopefully we find something that works before they notice so we can give them one finger salute for taking their sweet ass time.

----------


## UK_

It would be nice if we could have a topical AR agonist that was effective for 7 - 10 days.

----------


## hellouser

> It would be nice if we could have a topical AR agonist that was effective for 7 - 10 days.


 Hence this question:




> Adam K:
> 
> This may be a bit out of your field but, I may as well as since your far more educated on chemistry/biology than me, but...
> 
> If CB-03-01 is supposed to bind to the receptor and block DHT from affecting the follicle, how long would CB be bound to the receptor? lilpauly says Cosmo is going to recommend twice daily applications, but as with Minox and Finasteride, the recommended doses aren't necessary, in fact Propecia is sold at 5mg but has the same effect as 1.25mg.
> 
> Do you think CB could be effective for more than 24 hours?

----------


## yan

The acne trial features 4 treatment arms: 

- low dose of CB-03-01 (0.1&#37 :Wink: , applied twice a day
- medium dose of CB-03-01 (0.5%), applied twice a day
- high dose of CB-03-01 (1%), applied twice a day
- high dose of CB-03-01 (1%), applied once a day 

Treatment duration: 12 weeks

I really hope we can apply it only once daily. I don`t like the idea to apply a topical twice a day for years to come... :/ I even had hope we can apply it only once or twice weekly like in the iontophoresis trials. But I guess we can forget about that. 

I don`t understand why they had 50% more density with iontophoresis but only applied it 5 or 10 times in 9 weeks. But we have to apply it daily or even twice daily now. Why? Is there such a big amount of CB at the hair follicle via iontophoresis that it blocks the receptor for weeks? I understood that once all receptors are blocked, the remaining CB is quickly metabolized to the inactive parent cortexolone.

They applied it once or twice weekly for 5 weeks and then checked the density 4 weeks after treatment completion. 

Most amazing thing is that the density increased that much AFTER completion of the treatment. 5 weeks without CB and you gain 50% density. Just amazing.

----------


## locke999

> The acne trial features 4 treatment arms: 
> 
> - low dose of CB-03-01 (0.1%), applied twice a day
> - medium dose of CB-03-01 (0.5%), applied twice a day
> - high dose of CB-03-01 (1%), applied twice a day
> - high dose of CB-03-01 (1%), applied once a day 
> 
> Treatment duration: 12 weeks
> 
> I really hope we can apply it only once daily. I don`t like the idea to apply a topical twice a day for years to come... :/


 Don't care if its 3 times a day, as long as it significant stop hair loss with no side effects then that's good enough for me. Not that I wouldn't prefer something more hassle free though.

----------


## yan

European CB acne study:

"The products were self-applied in adequate amounts only to the affected areas of the face, once a day at bedtime for 8 weeks."

At least for acne it seems like once daily 1&#37; cream was enough to achieve pretty good results.

----------


## adam k

> Adam K:
> 
> This may be a bit out of your field but, I may as well as since your far more educated on chemistry/biology than me, but...
> 
> If CB-03-01 is supposed to bind to the receptor and block DHT from affecting the follicle, how long would CB be bound to the receptor? lilpauly says Cosmo is going to recommend twice daily applications, but as with Minox and Finasteride, the recommended doses aren't necessary, in fact Propecia is sold at 5mg but has the same effect as 1.25mg.
> 
> Do you think CB could be effective for more than 24 hours?


 Hey Hell. I have been researching this and I had to consult my friend in pharmacology. Basically there is no way of knowing the answer to this and the only way you can find out is by doing a bio assay to find out the binding affinity of the drug. This tells you how long the drug can stay bound to the receptor. One thing I didnt know was that the binding is in a state of constant equilibrium so when one CB comes off another that is in the vicinity will bind. Then slowly the conc. of the CB in surrounding environment will slowly decrease due to them being metabolised. At a certain point then a new application will need to be applied. Hence we are missing two pieces of information the binding affinity (Ki) and the degradation rate of CB. 





> I don`t understand why they had 50&#37; more density with iontophoresis but only applied it 5 or 10 times in 9 weeks. But we have to apply it daily or even twice daily now. Why? Is there such a big amount of CB at the hair follicle via iontophoresis that it blocks the receptor for weeks? I understood that once all receptors are blocked, the remaining CB is quickly metabolized to the inactive parent cortexolone.


 This is exactly what I thought also and is baffling me. Iontophoresis is only a penetration tool, the drug metabolism and binding affinity remains the same. So I do not understand why with Ionto such few applications were done. 

Maybe Ionto dumps such a huge amount of CB in one go that it can last for x number of days (this suggests that drug metabolism is slow). Maybe topicals penetrate so slow that the CB conc must be gradually increased over a number of days to reach that level at which point a steady state system is reached.

Having said that I do not understand this: If Cosmo said there was no difference between 1% and 5% tests then that suggests concentration of drug at the receptor is not important over a certain point. Therefore I do not understand how Ionto was used such few times still. This suggests to me a penetration limitation.

----------


## lilpauly

> Hey Hell. I have been researching this and I had to consult my friend in pharmacology. Basically there is no way of knowing the answer to this and the only way you can find out is by doing a bio assay to find out the binding affinity of the drug. This tells you how long the drug can stay bound to the receptor. One thing I didnt know was that the binding is in a state of constant equilibrium so when one CB comes off another that is in the vicinity will bind. Then slowly the conc. of the CB in surrounding environment will slowly decrease due to them being metabolised. At a certain point then a new application will need to be applied. Hence we are missing two pieces of information the binding affinity (Ki) and the degradation rate of CB. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly what I thought also and is baffling me. Iontophoresis is only a penetration tool, the drug metabolism and binding affinity remains the same. So I do not understand why with Ionto such few applications were done. 
> 
> Maybe Ionto dumps such a huge amount of CB in one go that it can last for x number of days (this suggests that drug metabolism is slow). Maybe topicals penetrate so slow that the CB conc must be gradually increased over a number of days to reach that level at which point a steady state system is reached.


 confirmed can get cb into the ionto

----------


## yan

> Maybe Ionto dumps such a huge amount of CB in one go that it can last for x number of days (this suggests that drug metabolism is slow).


 "*Rapidly* converted to its inactive metabolite, Cortexolone, after passing through the skin"

----------


## adam k

> "*Rapidly* converted to its inactive metabolite, Cortexolone, after passing through the skin"


 I know lol that is also confusing the f out of me. How the hell did Ionto manage such few applications.

Maybe they used the word 'rapid' loosely when they were trying to propose this drug.

----------


## adam k

Or how plausible is it that Cosmo are using once/twice daily applications from the start of the trials so they can sell it for more usage to increase sales once its marketed? haha

----------


## yan

> Or how plausible is it that Cosmo are using once/twice daily applications from the start of the trials so they can sell it for more usage to increase sales once its marketed? haha


 Haha I have no idea... But we will for sure find out through trial & error. Same as with fin, people found out that even a very small dose can maintain..

----------


## lilpauly

"My impression of Kanes CB is that it is ultra pure, compared to the stuff I was using. 



Ive been using it for a couple of weeks now, and everything feels just like CB. No sides at all, and a powerful numbing of the scalp when applied". gk wh has used cb for over  2 years

----------


## hellouser

I got my CB from Kane today, 2grams in total with another 4 grams coming in later on from another source. If used at 10mg/day it would last me almost two years (6000mg / 10 = 600 applications). I'm gonna be using about 15mg/day most likely at 1.5ml per application, at a 10&#37; concentration. I want to make sure I'm protecting my ENTIRE head from DHT hence the 1.5ml but also create regrowth at the hairline and HOPEFULLY fill in the corners.

First things first;

Payment with Kane went fine. Cost was $450 with shipping for only 2 grams. Payment was made through Western Union at a kiosk and then provided Kane the MTCN number via email. CB was shipped the next day and CB arrived in under a week, a day ahead of schedule actually, was supposed to arrive tomorrow according to the tracking number. I'm happy.

Packaging looks like this:



Opened up and theres another small package inside:



Opening up the smaller package lead to this:



I put this away for a few hours (in the freezer) and did more reading on wounding and all that. So now, lets get dissolving!

The setup and CB, which arrived in an airtight silver pouch:



As you can see the CB powder is in another small zip lock bag. Up close you can see the refined powder:



Again, the CB powder is provided in ANOTHER zip lock bag (looks like Kane tries pretty hard to keep it airtight)



Here's the CB in raw form in the bag:



So for my first batch I'm going to premix about 50mg of it in 2ml of ethanol with 2ml of propylene glycol for a total of 4ml. Therefor the 50mg in 4ml makes it a 12.5% concentration. A little below my desire 15% target, but it should do.



Here's the CB completely exposed on my digital scale:



I'm first going to use an Ethanol/PG vehicle, I'll try Oleyl in the coming days. However, the next photo is the CB in my really small glass jar which holds about 8-9ml total. In this photo, the CB has only been in the Ethanol (Everclear, 95%) for about 15-30 seconds and its ALREADY dissolving:



Here's the CB in the ethanol from outside the jar:



And after a 5-10 second light shake, the CB has dissolved COMPLETELY:



I gotta say, this stuff dissolves even faster than my RU58841. It looks pure as the driven snow.

I hope this helps!

----------


## clandestine

hellouser; incredible post.

Sorry if you've mentioned, but what vehicle are you using?

----------


## hellouser

> hellouser; incredible post.
> 
> Sorry if you've mentioned, but what vehicle are you using?


 I'm first going to try ethanol (everclear) with PG in a 50/50 mix. I've used 49mg in total as you can see on my scale. I dumped that into 2ml of ethanol and 2ml of PG, for a total of 4ml which 50mg in 4ml makes a 12.5% concentration. This is slightly above Cosmo's 1% concentration which gave incredible results.

I've got Oleyl as well, I'll try that in a few days, see how it goes with itching and shedding.

----------


## DanWS

Terrific pics hellouser! Will you be using a dropper to apply the solution or will you be doing it another way? Please keep us updated... any chance you could make a separate thread to regularly document your progress?

----------


## hellouser

> Terrific pics hellouser! Will you be using a dropper to apply the solution or will you be doing it another way? Please keep us updated... any chance you could make a separate thread to regularly document your progress?


 Yup, I've already got an RU/CB/Minoxidil etc) thread going. I've somewhat dropped RU so the results going forward will be attributed almost exclusively to CB and Dermarolling/Wounding and Minoxidil. Nothing more. No more systemic effects from RU (if I had any) and no Finasteride. Fvck Merck and Fvck Finasteride! Its a GOOD day!  :Smile: 

And yes, I'm using a dropper, the same one as in my RU Guide/Tutorial thread.  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

Hellouser, another great post!  

You could bump it up to 60mg to get the full 15&#37; later on I guess, but I think 12.5% should be okay considering you're also on RU.

What device(s) are you going to use to apply the CB to the scalp?  I heard you really need good scalp contact with this stuff.

----------


## Westonci

Hellhouse your the man!

Keep up the good work!

----------


## adam k

Just got into the office and seen this. Absolutely great stuff Hellouser, you are the man! And brilliant pictures also. From the pictures I can see the CB appears to be of a very good quality (crystalline and shiny). It is also promising to see that it dissolved very quickly in ethanol. 

Again great post!

----------


## adam k

Guys regarding the 12.5&#37; concentration. How are you working this out?

----------


## StayThick

Hellouser: Another great write-up. Your contribution on this forum and helping others with these experimental treatments is amazing. Thanks brotha.

It looks like you are utilizing the same vehicle as Iron Dragon at the moment. Although I do not know how pure there CB is.

Haven't you already tried CB from Kane in the past but the wrong form?? Correct me if I am wrong. I'm also thinking about pulling the trigger on this as well. It's this and the GF's that have me excited at the moment.

Thanks for breaking it down man.

----------


## Jens1986

@Hellouser how often will you apply the 12.5% CB?

----------


## Cob984

Hey Hell, please let me know how to get this alcohol and pg,
Im in singapore and cant find everclear anywhere, I also use Kane CB but in KB solution,
I suspect this doesnt do squat, i got off the RU which im only using 10% of anyway and tried the only cb approach, hair started takin a massive beating,

Although it dissolves brilliantly in KB i suspect no efficacy,
Has this everclear/pg combo actually worked for you and if so please tell me where to get it? Im sick of RU sides and im at a dose level which isnt halting my hairloss either.l

thanks

----------


## hellouser

> @Hellouser how often will you apply the 12.5% CB?


 Everyday, once a day. I'd like to use 15mg in 1.5ml to cover the entire scalp. I may bump it up to 20mg in 1.5ml.

----------


## hellouser

> Hey Hell, please let me know how to get this alcohol and pg,
> Im in singapore and cant find everclear anywhere, I also use Kane CB but in KB solution


 I've no idea how you can attain Everclear in Singapore. You'll need a 95% grain alcohol as a substitute. The KB solution *may* work and if your switching from RU to CB, it might cause a shed. I lost a lot of hair when I switched from 2% to 5% minoxidil.




> Has this everclear/pg combo actually worked for you and if so please tell me where to get it?


 I only got my CB yesterday, so... I've no idea how well it may work or if it will work at all.

If you can't get ethanol (everclear) I'd try getting some CB from Iron Dragon as they ship it premixed with ethanol.

----------


## Cob984

already ordered from ID, aug 1, its fkin the 20th and its still not available and still showing ETA 1 wk, they happily fkin accepted my cash tho,
fk this shit

----------


## hellouser

> Just got into the office and seen this. Absolutely great stuff Hellouser, you are the man! And brilliant pictures also. From the pictures I can see the CB appears to be of a very good quality (crystalline and shiny). It is also promising to see that it dissolved very quickly in ethanol. 
> 
> Again great post!


 Thanks Adam!  :Smile: 

As far as I know, the CB from Kane is supposed to be 98% pure. Do you know what could be the remaining 2% in the CB? Could it be dangerous or lethal?

----------


## lilpauly

> Thanks Adam! 
> 
> As far as I know, the CB from Kane is supposed to be 98% pure. Do you know what could be the remaining 2% in the CB? Could it be dangerous or lethal?


  the indepenent chemist confirmed the cb is well over 99% pure, the admin said it was 98.7% pure but it higher then that

----------


## hellouser

> the indepenent chemist confirmed the cb is well over 99% pure, the admin said it was 98.7% pure but it higher then that


 That's damn pure. But I'm still curious what the remainder is.

----------


## Hairismylife

> Hey Hell, please let me know how to get this alcohol and pg,
> Im in singapore and cant find everclear anywhere, I also use Kane CB but in KB solution,
> I suspect this doesnt do squat, i got off the RU which im only using 10% of anyway and tried the only cb approach, hair started takin a massive beating,
> 
> Although it dissolves brilliantly in KB i suspect no efficacy,
> Has this everclear/pg combo actually worked for you and if so please tell me where to get it? Im sick of RU sides and im at a dose level which isnt halting my hairloss either.l
> 
> thanks


 Can we buy from Amazon?

----------


## adam k

> Thanks Adam! 
> 
> As far as I know, the CB from Kane is supposed to be 98&#37; pure. Do you know what could be the remaining 2% in the CB? Could it be dangerous or lethal?


 I have studied the CB patent and have devised a scheme of what I think the impurities could be. They are labelled in red. However to know properly and fully you would need to know Kane's full detailed synthesis procedure.

----------


## lilpauly

Adam it's like 99.4 pure

----------


## hellouser

> I have studied the CB patent and have devised a scheme of what I think the impurities could be. They are labelled in red. However to know properly and fully you would need to know Kane's full detailed synthesis procedure.


 Can you briefly describe what the impurities may be and how they could affect our health? I've no idea what the image you posted describes :/ Sorry man! I'm just a graphic/web designer  :Frown:

----------


## adam k

> Can you briefly describe what the impurities may be and how they could affect our health? I've no idea what the image you posted describes :/ Sorry man! I'm just a graphic/web designer


 Sure. Its out of my field so I'll need to research it first. I was wondering if Kane would be able to help identify what the impurities could be also?

And graphic/web designing is cool, I'm a complete noob, just starting to learn photoshop lol!

Lilpauly if its 99.4&#37; pure then that is very pure indeed.

----------


## deuce

Has anyone in this forum used cb before?  I remember others experimenting with it in March at another hairloss website.  One said he was having good results but got sides from it.  Probably not the correct form of CB, but he did say he got it from kane.  Lil pauly didnt you try it before?

----------


## hellouser

> Has anyone in this forum used cb before?  I remember others experimenting with it in March at another hairloss website.  One said he was having good results but got sides from it.  Probably not the correct form of CB, but he did say he got it from kane.  Lil pauly didnt you try it before?


 I'm on it now. Have had two applications so far, no sides at all.

----------


## hellouser

> Cosmo prob love the fact we are experimenting. Free marketing and trials, I wouldn't be surprised if they released the vehicle to help speed things up. if this works I doubt they will care about the small minority that buy from the black market. Maybe someone should get on touch with a proposition.


 I thought about this today and I have a feeling that if Cosmo knows about us trying out CB, it only generates hype for their end product. Too bad they have no clue how badly they've screwed up by going after acne first rather than hair loss. Who's the idiot at Cosmo that decided that was the right path?

----------


## adam k

Iontophoresis delivers a medicine or other chemical through the skin.  It propels high concentrations of a charged substance, transdermally by repulsive electromotive force, through the skin. A small electric current is applied to an iontophoretic chamber placed on the skin, containing a charged active agent and its solvent vehicle. Another chamber or a skin electrode carries the return current. A chamber are filled with a solution containing an active ingredient and its solvent vehicle. The positively charged chamber, called the cathode, will repel a positively charged chemical species, whereas the negatively charged chamber, called the anode, will repel a negatively charged species into the skin.  Hence if our compound is positively charged we place it in the cathode and if its negatively charges we place it in the anode.

The problem faced by us is that CB 03 01 is chemically neutral. Most steroids are chemically neutral molecules at physiological pH though it is sometimes possible to chemically modify them in order to form prodrugs containing an acidic group (e.g., sulphate or phosphate) that are negatively charged in physiological conditions. Once the produg passes the skin it is hydrolysed back to its original active form.  For example, dexamethasone phosphate is a prodrug of dexamethasone and is doubly charged at physiological pH.  Iontophoresis from the cathode is therefore expected to increase the delivery of these anionic prodrugs.

My theory is that Cosmo used a phosphating/or sulphating agent to add a phosphate/or a sulphate ester to the alcohol functional group on carbon-21. Below is the scheme:



In a previous post  I was confused as to how Iontophoresis could achieve such few  applications whereas the topical would require once/twice daily applications. This was also echoed by a few people and Im guessing the following. As a prodrug needs to be hydrolysed twice to reach the inactive cortexolone form (1st hydrolysis = active form CB, second hydrolysis = inactive form Cortexolone) this would be able to stay in the skin for longer. Another guess is that Cosmo used a phosphating reagent that had a bulky group which would cause steric hindrance to the phosphate ester, thereby slowing the rate of hydrolysis even more and keeping the prodrug in the skin for longer. 

Now the problem with this is that is an extremely tricky reaction, with all kinds of sh*t that can happen and all kinds of side reactions and pathways can occur. This type of reaction can only be done under controlled conditions in a lab with other reagents to help facilitate the process. It is not something that we could do ourselves. But this is just the first step of the problem.  Lets just say we were to obtain the pro drug form.  It is not a simple case of just wacking it into a vehicle and then using Iontophoresis.

The following is just to show you how complex it would be. It would need to be prepared in deionized water at a specific pH. To avoid the inclusion of unwanted anions inevitable when a strong acid is used to lower the pH, an equimolar mixture of the diacid  and its conjugate base would need to be dissolved in water to obtain a final  conc. of CB-03-01-Phos. CB-03-01-H2-Phos would have to be prepared from the disodium salt by adding HCl to a solution of CB-03-01-Na2-Phos in water. The insoluble dihydrogen acid  would precipitate and would need to be recovered by liquid extraction, leaving a powder of  CB-03-01-H2-Phos which contains only trace amounts of unwanted ions.

Then to carry out Iontophoresis, a specific procedure would have to be carried out by mixing phosphate-buffered saline, sodium, potassium, chloride and phosphate at a certain pH.

As you can see, the above processes are complex, tedious and require lots of reagents and special techniques. Also ionto requires using sticky electrodes on the skin. I don't see how this could be attached to the scalp unless somebody was slick bald. That is another problem. Therefore based on my current research, my view is that using Iontophoresis ourselves is not viable.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

so just a working vehicle for topical then we should focus on?

----------


## adam k

> so just a working vehicle for topical then we should focus on?


 Yeah I think that would be best. Its still early days. I pray that Hellouser achieves great results.

----------


## hellouser

> Yeah I think that would be best. Its still early days. I pray that Hellouser achieves great results.


 I've made a 4 day batch of CB in 50/50 concentration of ethanol and pg. (4ml total with 50mg of CB thus 12.5mg/1ml)

First day I skipped minox but took CB at 1ml. Next day shedding was down significantly during the day, and also a little while washing hair.

Second day I took both minox and CB. After that, shedding throughout the day (today actually) is great although there was still many hairs coming out in the morning when washing it.

Each day prior to using CB I was shedding heavily during the day, my desk would be riddled with hairs, a minimum of 30. Now? Maybe 5-10... In fact, everytime I used to brush my hand through my hair, I would get many hairs falling out, sometimes 10+ after brushing hair for about 5-10 seconds. Now, either NO hair or a single strand.

Mind you, I'm only using a 1.2&#37; concentration at 1ml and ethanol rather than oleyl. I'll be updating my log frequently, I won't be taking any pics for the next while except for maybe baseline photos. The hair I had between April - June was great, not so thin to look pathetic but dense enough to be able to style it kind of messy. Since early July i've been shedding insanely which almost feels like I've lost a full norwood level.

I hate this disease. I've seen some results from PSI and may be jumping on the bandwagon as it regrew hair at the hairline for some members. That coupled with density from CB would make me pretty happy.

----------


## ragsta

The Salvo hormone delivery  product i posted about was designed for systematic hormone absorption - which it should be. I read a post by HenryV on a another forum that hormone absorption should be between 30-70%. I think he is affiliated with the company though but his posts are very knowledgeable. Don't think it'll be long before those using the vehicle will post logs for the hormones.

----------


## adam k

> I've made a 4 day batch of CB in 50/50 concentration of ethanol and pg. (4ml total with 50mg of CB thus 12.5mg/1ml)
> 
> First day I skipped minox but took CB at 1ml. Next day shedding was down significantly during the day, and also a little while washing hair.
> 
> Second day I took both minox and CB. After that, shedding throughout the day (today actually) is great although there was still many hairs coming out in the morning when washing it.
> 
> Each day prior to using CB I was shedding heavily during the day, my desk would be riddled with hairs, a minimum of 30. Now? Maybe 5-10... In fact, everytime I used to brush my hand through my hair, I would get many hairs falling out, sometimes 10+ after brushing hair for about 5-10 seconds. Now, either NO hair or a single strand.
> 
> Mind you, I'm only using a 1.2% concentration at 1ml and ethanol rather than oleyl. I'll be updating my log frequently, I won't be taking any pics for the next while except for maybe baseline photos. The hair I had between April - June was great, not so thin to look pathetic but dense enough to be able to style it kind of messy. Since early July i've been shedding insanely which almost feels like I've lost a full norwood level.
> ...


 Great stuff mate and thank you on behalf of everyone!

Hopefully ethanol will be okay, if it is then all the better as it seems to be more easier to buy. Yeah it is a 1.25% conc. you are using. In your previous post you mentioned 12.5% and I didnt know how you calculated that.

We are all sick of this disease. Day by day my hairline is eroding. Its slow torture.

----------


## hellouser

> Great stuff mate and thank you on behalf of everyone!
> 
> Hopefully ethanol will be okay, if it is then all the better as it seems to be more easier to buy. Yeah it is a 1.25% conc. you are using. In your previous post you mentioned 12.5% and I didnt know how you calculated that.
> 
> We are all sick of this disease. Day by day my hairline is eroding. Its slow torture.


 I think I wrote 12.5% by accident where as it should have been 12.5mg per application. My bad.

I'll keep everyone posted though. Hopefully I'll be too busy enjoying hair to make frequent contributions, that way you guys will know its working, lol.

----------


## hellouser

Adam K:

A bit off topic here, but can you chime in on this:

http://anageninc.com/home-page-produ...ution-30g.html

Particularly in regards to 'Cosmetic GF-Nano solution' Supposedly its a vehicle that can carry a substance with a molecular weight in the kilodalton... where as, as you know, skin doesn't allow anything above 500 dalton to pass through it.

Thoughts?

----------


## lilpauly

> Adam K:
> 
> A bit off topic here, but can you chime in on this:
> 
> http://anageninc.com/home-page-produ...ution-30g.html
> 
> Particularly in regards to 'Cosmetic GF-Nano solution' Supposedly its a vehicle that can carry a substance with a molecular weight in the kilodalton... where as, as you know, skin doesn't allow anything above 500 dalton to pass through it.
> 
> Thoughts?


 Hellouser it's the vehicle ,plus the dermaroller.

----------


## lilpauly

There is a derma roller study that was amazing

----------


## hellouser

Also, Adam K:

One member on another forum pointed out that Cosmo used hydroelectrophoresis to skirt around the positive/negative charged CB in order to penetrate CB as a neutral substance through the skin.

I've heard that such a device at a reasonable price does not exist.

Thoughts?

----------


## adam k

> Adam K:
> 
> A bit off topic here, but can you chime in on this:
> 
> http://anageninc.com/home-page-produ...ution-30g.html
> 
> Particularly in regards to 'Cosmetic GF-Nano solution' Supposedly its a vehicle that can carry a substance with a molecular weight in the kilodalton... where as, as you know, skin doesn't allow anything above 500 dalton to pass through it.
> 
> Thoughts?


 These special delivery systems have been designed to try and circumvent the problems faced by molecules generally over 500 Mr. The nano just refers to the size (10^-9m) of the 3D sphere which encapsulates the compound. The sphere can be composed of different things so you can have lipid nanoparticles (liposomes), polymer nanoparticles etc. There are a quite a few journals about this and a few that involve growth factors. I'm not saying the product is bunk (It might very well be excellent) though I would urge caution as with anything. The word Nano sounds great and is a great selling point. Try and get as much information about the product and use primary literature to substantiate claims. 




> Also, Adam K:
> 
> One member on another forum pointed out that Cosmo used hydroelectrophoresis to skirt around the positive/negative charged CB in order to penetrate CB as a neutral substance through the skin.
> 
> I've heard that such a device at a reasonable price does not exist.
> 
> Thoughts?


 I did a journal search with the word 'hydroelectrophoresis' and I have virtually no hits. I have no idea what this is. IF in fact there's something to this then its far too obscure and not enough information.

----------


## adam k

'hydroelectrophoresis' sounds like it would still requires charged molecules if it were a real thing. And the only search for this gives me a company called Hydrofor. This should be discarded.

----------


## lilpauly

adam the nano solution is this 

http://i40.tinypic.com/2powt9v.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ducrgi.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ducrgi.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2lszajn.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/mrbon7.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2cfqnp2.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/10eklft.jpg

----------


## lilpauly

.

----------


## lilpauly

In this study, we demonstrate the feasibility to use microneedle arrays manufactured from commercially available 30G hypodermal needles to enhance the transport of compounds up to a molecular weight of 72 kDa.

Piercing of human dermatomed skin with microneedle arrays was studied by Trypan Blue staining on the SC side of the skin and transepidermal water loss measurements (TEWL). Passive transport studies were conducted with Cascade Blue (CB, Mw 538), Dextran–Cascade Blue (DCB, Mw 10 kDa), and FITC coupled Dextran (FITC-Dex, Mw 72 kDa). Microneedle arrays with needle lengths of 900, 700 and 550 μm are able to pierce dermatomed human skin as evident from (a) the appearance of blue spots on the dermal side of the skin after Trypan Blue treatment and (b) elevated TEWL levels after piercing compared to non-treated human dermatomed skin. Microneedles with a length of 300 μm did not pierce human skin in vitro. Transport studies performed with model compounds ranging from 538 Da to 72 kDa revealed that pretreatment with microneedle arrays enhanced the transport across dermatomed human skin. However, some degradation was also observed for FITC-Dex and DCB. We conclude that assembled microneedle arrays can be used to deliver compounds through the skin up to a molecular weight of at least 72 kDa.

----------


## DesperateOne

After reading the whole thread for like 20+ minutes I had some laughs of the things people post lol, bribing someone into give us info haha. I have also been laughing for the last 30 minutes that how ironic it would be if snake oil turned out to be the correct vessel for this, I don't know why I found this so funny  :Big Grin: .

Well I do appreciate that we are doing this on our own. I however don't think that just hello should be doing the trials. First, he has a regular receding hairline and from what I gathered, those don't respond well. I say we need at least one that is a diffuse thinner to also be on the trial because if it doesn't work for Hell, he might just dump it. 

Good luck.

----------


## johnnynohair

I'm going to be on this and reporting; need to get paid first though, never even occurred to me I couldn't use PayPal or cc until I started the order...

Ah well.

----------


## hellouser

> I however don't think that just hello should be doing the trials. First, he has a regular receding hairline and from what I gathered, those don't respond well. I say we need at least one that is a diffuse thinner to also be on the trial because if it doesn't work for Hell, he might just dump it. 
> 
> Good luck.


 1) Nobody knows who responds well to CB, whether its diffuse thinners, guys with receding hairlines or crown thinning.

2) I am thinning all over, crown is thinning and general thinning everywhere else.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

we should arrange a group buy through Kane

----------


## UK_

Is the issue of the charged particles an issue of safety or delivery?  I.e. Do Cosmo use this procedure to ensure the compound is safe or simply to improve absorbtion?

I would like to try CB but I'm worried about the safety, I understand there is nothing mutagenic associated with CB or the impurities, but what other saftey concerns should I be worried about before applying this treatment besides the fact that I'd be using an unapproved compound if I were to buy this stuff?

----------


## yan

> Is the issue of the charged particles an issue of safety or delivery?  I.e. Do Cosmo use this procedure to ensure the compound is safe or simply to improve absorbtion?
> 
> I would like to try CB but I'm worried about the safety, I understand there is nothing mutagenic associated with CB or the impurities, but what other saftey concerns should I be worried about before applying this treatment besides the fact that I'd be using an unapproved compound if I were to buy this stuff?


 Well the clinical trials for acne are about to end soon. They reported no major side effects so far. Also the proof of concept for acne in europe showed no side effects. 
According to cosmo, there are only minimal local or even no side effects at all. 

They used this procedure in order to safe time and money and of course to improve absorbtion. CB for acne is the same in cream vehicle.

----------


## yan

save* :P 

Although they use 1% CB for acne and 5% CB for alopecia, I don`t think there is a major difference in terms of side effects..

----------


## UK_

That's what I mean, we'd be using concentrations nearing 12 - 15&#37; hence my concern. 

I like how Adam breaks apart the molecule and looks for possible dangers at a deeper level, this is exactly the kind of research we need when determining true safety.

----------


## hellouser

> That's what I mean, we'd be using concentrations nearing 12 - 15% hence my concern. 
> 
> I like how Adam breaks apart the molecule and looks for possible dangers at a deeper level, this is exactly the kind of research we need when determining true safety.


 Big fvcking kudos to Adam  :Smile: 

THANK YOU!

----------


## yan

> That's what I mean, we'd be using concentrations nearing 12 - 15&#37; hence my concern. 
> 
> I like how Adam breaks apart the molecule and looks for possible dangers at a deeper level, this is exactly the kind of research we need when determining true safety.


 Nobody is going to use concentrations nearing 12 - 15%! 

Hell wrote 12.5% by accident. Its 1.25% he is using.

----------


## hellouser

> Nobody is going to use concentrations nearing 12 - 15%! 
> 
> Hell wrote 12.5% by accident. Its 1.25%!


 5% is probably the max needed. Cosmo got results at 1% that were the same when at 5%.

----------


## yan

> 5% is probably the max needed. Cosmo got results at 1% that were the same when at 5%.


 Exactly my thoughts.  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

Well in that case I think I'm going to place an order :Big Grin: .

It's the only option I have... I cant stand finasteride... it for some reason makes me numb to sexual pleasure... which I'd rather be bald than lose sexual pleasure (seriously you dont know what you've got till its gone).

But the most weird side effect is that it numbs my desire to seek out and "chase" the opposite sex, that's a horrid side effect that leaves you wondering... "whats the point in living?".

----------


## yan

> Well in that case I think I'm going to place an order.
> 
> It's the only option I have... I cant stand finasteride... it for some reason makes me numb to sexual pleasure... which I'd rather be bald than lose sexual pleasure (seriously you dont know what you've got till its gone).
> 
> But the most weird side effect is that it numbs my desire to seek out and "chase" the opposite sex, that's a horrid side effect that leaves you wondering... "whats the point in living?".


 Haha I know that feeling exactly. When I was on 1mg / day I was like "I dont care about women at all".

----------


## johnnynohair

Um. Question please, for hellouser or anyone else about ordering from Kane:

Here in the UK, Western Union only lets me send USD $ if I choose the 'cash' option, otherwise it's in Yuan.

Um. Is that okay? I'd ask Kane directly but hoping to place order this evening and I guess China are asleep.

Thanks all.

----------


## hellouser

> Um. Question please, for hellouser or anyone else about ordering from Kane:
> 
> Here in the UK, Western Union only lets me send USD $ if I choose the 'cash' option, otherwise it's in Yuan.
> 
> Um. Is that okay? I'd ask Kane directly but hoping to place order this evening and I guess China are asleep.
> 
> Thanks all.


 I sent my cash to Kane via a Kiosk in US funds. You should do the same.

----------


## johnnynohair

Thanks man.

----------


## hellouser

> Thanks man.


 Online works too  :Smile:  Just make sure to send him the MTCN number.

----------


## brunobald

osmopharma.com/~/media/Files/C/Cosmo-Pharmaceuticals/ir/presentations/25-01-2013/RDDAY_25JAN13_v3.pdf

Cosmo presention on CB and other products. Towards the end there is some info on CB vehicles not much tho.

If viewing this link copy and paste the link into a fresh browser tab then and the "c" to the front of the link. This will stop the cosmo tracing the extra traffic back to this site.

----------


## Avacfc

Anyone in the UK know where to get ethanol or high grade alcohol like everclear (they don't sell it in the UK) I can't anything anywhere and I would like to get on CB?

----------


## TwoInchCircle

Hey I apologize if his has been discussed before, but I've read almost everything about CB on tbt and I don't recall anyone dissussing this before.

But is there a shed when it comes to using CB? And if so, is it a significant several months long shed like minoxidil or is it a far shorter and less extreme shed? If no one knows yet, then I suppose my answer will arrive in the upcoming months from the early users.

I'm VERY interested in using CB and will probably be ordering some from Kane in the near future and I was just hoping to pick everyone's brains before I do so.  :Wink:

----------


## HARIRI

> If you can't get ethanol (everclear) I'd try getting some CB from Iron Dragon as they ship it premixed with ethanol.


 This statement attracted my attention. Could you please get me the Premixed CB link of Iron Dragon. Getting CB premixed with Ethanol would be a big relief to me. Please Hellouser answer me as soon as possible. I cant wait to order it and apply it on my crown as its thinning pretty fast.  :Frown:

----------


## Cob984

do some research bro srsly, 
google iron dragon peptides and order cortex under selective anti androgens
its still not available, i ordered mine 3 wks ago

----------


## StayThick

I'm not sending Iron Dragon a dollar until they are stocked with the CB...

They have been on "preorder" status for weeks now.

----------


## hellouser

****UPDATE****

I got my Oleyl and PG.

Prepared 4 batches of it again at 12.5mg of CB per 1ml.
I used 3.6ml of PG and 0.4ml of Oleyl for a total of 4ml, therefor, for every 1ml application, I have 0.9ml of PG and 0.1ml of Oleyl.

Here's a shot of Kane's CB in PG *only*. This has been stirred and mixed with my dropper. Actually what I do to mix CB (or RU) in liquids is by squeezing and letting go with the dropper pretty quickly, basically sucking in and out until its mixed. As you can see, CB does dissolve but *slowly* in PG:



The next shot is of CB in PG and Oleyl after its been added and mixed a little again. As you can see its not 100% dissolved (unless we're seeing small bubbles). Its actually difficult to distinguish CB from the little air bubbles when you mix it up, PG is pretty oil as is Oleyl.



The next shot we see that CB dissolves completely in PG and Oleyl when we wait for a couple minutes:



So, after my first application of 1ml I can say the following:

1) Its pretty greasy.
2) Its a little itchy.
3) It has a very mild burning sensation when spread around the scalp.

I do have a couple questions for Adam K:

1) Is oleyl supposed to smell a bit like fish oil? Its got a funky scent, nothing at all like an alcohol like Everclear.
2) Would 0.2ml of Oleyl and 0.8ml of PG be advisable or is Oleyl too harsh on skin?
3) How long do you think CB could withstand being kept out of the freezer? Some people are often concerned about RU not being a good solution when traveling and not being able to store it in a cool place. Any advice on CB?

Thanks!

As for my progress so far... well, obviously its way too early as hair grows DAMN SLOW, however I can say this: every time I've applied CB, the next day I've noticed a significant decrease in shedding when I was using it in an ethanol/PG vehicle (50/50 concentration). Does it work? Well, it stops shedding, lol. We'll see if it regrows like the Cosmo claims.

----------


## greatjob!

Man I hope you find the right vehicle and this at least can replace fin! While I think fin is the best we have and have used it for a few years, I would much rather not be on it.

----------


## HARIRI

> do some research bro srsly, 
> google iron dragon peptides and order cortex under selective anti androgens
> its still not available, i ordered mine 3 wks ago


 I did already with typing Iron Dragon and nothing came up but when I typed iron dragon peptides then it did. What makes me wonder here is that it doesn't say that its premixed however the price is only $45 which I believe its a one months supply. Hellouser mentioned that its mixed with Ethanol/PG which I believe its the best vehicle to me however its not mentioned in the website. Also its not mentioned which strength is it. Is it 1&#37; or more? I hope one of you guys emailed them before and got an answer  :Confused: 

Unfortunately it seems that its out of stock because I cant see the option of ordering it online. COB984 guess you were so lucky Bro  :Frown: 

http://www.iron-dragon.com/product_i...roducts_id=238

----------


## adam k

> ****UPDATE****
> 
> So, after my first application of 1ml I can say the following:
> 
> 1) Its pretty greasy.
> 2) Its a little itchy.
> 3) It has a very mild burning sensation when spread around the scalp.
> 
> I do have a couple questions for Adam K:
> ...


 Another cracking post Hellouser, you are awesome!! And you take great pictures of the process, you are one of the only guys I know who does this and it is a pleasure to see them . I need to pop out for the rest of the day but I'll get back to your questions when I return. Can I  ask why you decided to switch to oleyl?

----------


## HARIRI

> do some research bro srsly, 
> google iron dragon peptides and order cortex under selective anti androgens
> its still not available, i ordered mine 3 wks ago


 By the way, how many did you order? I have already ordered 3 (three months supply)  :Big Grin:

----------


## UK_

The longer Iron Dragon takes, the more customers he will lose to Kane.

As far as I can see, we only need to wait for the acne trials to complete to establish whether the compound is safe (which it likely is), AFAIK Cosmo will only conduct 'proof of concept' trials for CB's use against MPB, I think I will wait until Phase II finishes up in H1 2014 before I commit though.

----------


## wheresMYhairDUDE

adam k - I just wanted to welcome you to the forum and give you a big thumbs up to your spirit and passion on this.

Ten years ago when I started to notice my hair loss I was fairly complacent as there were always new discoveries of this and that, sheep were being cloned, bip this-bio that and I genuinely thought by the time it becomes an issue there would be a number of effective treatments for it.

But here we are and nothing!!!

So I share your viewpoint that we need to take the lead as it seems there's nothing currently out there as effective as we would like.

Unfortunately I don't have a bio/chem background but can share experiences and possibly offer myself as a guinea pig.

Have you read the crowdfunding post HERE - your expertise/input could be most valuable.

----------


## Cob984

> By the way, how many did you order? I have already ordered 3 (three months supply)


 Just ordered 1, these guys are really flaking along,
When did we see eta 5 wks? almost 5 yrs ago,

Now it has been ETA 1 week for 1+ month, ffs i ordered my product on aug 1 and its still not ready to ship, ridiculous,

I would not bother with these guys if i knew where to get ethanol and pg,
i already have kanes cb

----------


## Hairismylife

Hellouser, mpbtreatment has ethanol/pg solution, is that ok?
But i dunno the ratio is 50/50 or not

----------


## HARIRI

> Hellouser, mpbtreatment has ethanol/pg solution, is that ok?
> But i dunno the ratio is 50/50 or not


 Nice one Buddy, I wish I knew about it before. Their Ethanol/PG solution is 70&#37; Ethanol 30% Propylene Glycol. I dont know if its enough or not! We should ask the expert (Hellouser)  :Big Grin: 

70% Ethanol 30% Propylene Glycol.

http://www.mpbtreatments.com/#/shop/...ehicle/4070553

Lets do some maths here...

If I will buy 1g of CB from Kane shop then it would be $200 plus shipping + 60ml of Ethanol/PG would be $8 plus shipping.

In order to get 1% concentration I should add 10mg in 1ml. So 1g will be sufficient for 100ml which is 100 days.

So I need 300mg a month which means 1g can last for almost 3 months so when you divide 200 by 3, It will be $67 per month and thats without the cost of Ethanol/PG from MPB treatments.

Other scenario

If I will order from Iron Dragon a one month supply then it would cost me $45 plus ONE shipping charge. So in this way, Iron Dragon wins. It worths the wait I believe so.

----------


## clandestine

Sounds like ID is having a hard time keeping the premixed CB in stock.

Unless they remedy this, I can't see them as an effective supplier in the long term.

----------


## lilpauly

Adam what if we change the Cosmo cream a little bit?

----------


## lilpauly

Adam if we change the ingredients in Cosmo cream it will work

----------


## thatkidd

So is the 70 Ethanol 30 PG mix from MPBTreatments good enough or do we need more?

I believe Hell is doing 90/10 with his CB.

----------


## HairBane

Can't we logically establish the best 5-10 candidate vehicles, and then get one member of the forum to use each one and see who gets the best results? Also, what about injecting? or some kind of bootstrapped electrophoresis solution?

----------


## lilpauly

Take out the mineral oil in the Cosmo cream and replace it with coconut oil and its better for hair. I will post the ingredients in the Cosmo cream for acne , lets change it, lets eliminate everything in that's used for acne and replace it

----------


## UK_

Does coconut oil really have an effect on hair??  If you apply loads every day over a 6 month period does it help with thinning?

----------


## johnnynohair

2g ordered, finally.  All my card providers were like "woah" and kept blocking the transactions, and I couldn't get to an agent in the daytime.

Now I just have to find some stuff to dissolve it in.... (I'm in the UK)

Will keep you posted.

----------


## BudskiiHD

> Does coconut oil really have an effect on hair??  If you apply loads every day over a 6 month period does it help with thinning?


 I really doubt that because if it did help coconut oil would be on every regimen. I'm not saying it doesn't help, it may do but I don't think it would produce a noticeable result. If it has anti inflammatory properties like emu oil and castor then it probably does help, but very little.

----------


## burtandernie

A lot of people would buy a ready to roll solution with CB in it. Its trusting the CB is pure, the batches are consistent, and the vehicle works. Everything has to work right for it to be worth anything.

----------


## UK_

Is it true that boldy got heart failure from CB??

Can anyone verify this??

----------


## HARIRI

> Is it true that boldy got heart failure from CB??
> 
> Can anyone verify this??


 Heart Failure!!! Damn, you must be kidding me!!!  :EEK!:  :EEK!:  :EEK!:

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

I don't think so...

----------


## Desmond84

What! Boldy had heart failure??? Surely that's a rumour! I think he's just sick of ppl not wanting to wait to see the 3D DP culturing method...so he's taking some time away from the forum!

UK_ where did you hear that brother?

----------


## Desmond84

OK I just checked and Boldy was posting on another forum last night! So, I'm sure he's OK...he's actually working quite hard on his updated protocol I believe!

The guys a champion  :Smile:

----------


## HARIRI

> OK I just checked and Boldy was posting on another forum last night! So, I'm sure he's OK...he's actually working quite hard on his updated protocol I believe!
> 
> The guys a champion


 So you mean its all a lie!!! He didnt get any heart failure from CB-03-01 because otherwise we should inform Hellouser about that. Thank God anyways.  :Big Grin:

----------


## BudskiiHD

Theoretically, CB-03-01 is rapidly metabolized in blood to a safe substance and so there should not be any side effects

----------


## HairBane

wtf is this about heart failure getting thrown around? this UK_ numpty just says it out of the blue with no explanation?

----------


## yan

That rumors lol... Boldy had for sure not a heart failure! As far as I know, he had some minor heart issues, who knows if this is linked to cb. Never ever heard someone else reporting heart problems while using CB. And cosmo also NEVER reported anything even close to heart problems in various CB studies (acne + alopecia). So calm down and stop spreading rumors in every thread. If you are concerned, wait for phase 2 acne results in early 2014 and alopecia proof of concept results in early 2015. Then you will know much more about its safety profile.



Btw. I found a post from alfie on another forum from february: 

_I will try Kane CB, in a few weeks or months I will post results. My current CB from private forum works very well but not in cream vehicle. I use it in ethanol/PG vehicle since one month ago and is amazing.

On wednesday I took a photo in area between my only follicle survivor of my original hair line (is inmortal, thick, immune to aga) and my current hair line.

And then I was looking for pictures of this summer and I found a similar picture in same area. In this picture I had 3 months on CB cream at 1&#37; (daily use).

http://i45.tinypic.com/inakk4.jpg


And this is the pic that I took on wednesday (26 days on CB in liquid vehicle, EOD use, first 20 days at 1% and 6 days at 3%, only three applications at 3%)

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ecf0ok.jpg_


I don`t know what happened since then, maybe someone knows? But the pictures are pretty nice. It shows how important the right vehicle is. Cream vehicle is going to do absolutely nothing.

----------


## UK_

> wtf is this about heart failure getting thrown around? this UK_ numpty just says it out of the blue with no explanation?


 *It was a question, not a statement, YOU DUMB *****, next time read my post properly before jumping to insults you stupid little man.

The comment I was referring to was posted on Hair Loss Help, a quick google search for "boldy and heart failure" would bring up the post, but no, I guess idiots like you are too lazy to do that.

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...hreadid=100052

----------


## UK_

*Nobody is spreading rumours.

I was asking a f****** question.*





> Is it true that boldy got heart failure from CB??
> 
> Can anyone verify this??


 *^^^ 2 questions in the post above, one about boldy and heart failure, the other about verification, NOBODY IS SPREADING RUMOURS, IT'S NOT AGAINST THE LAW TO ASK A ****ING QUESTION.*

----------


## yan

Ok calm down. Rumor was the wrong word. 

His post is one year old, he used the wrong form in the wrong vehicle. Time will tell I guess. In some months we will know more about CB`s safety profile. 

Currently, there are only three options: 

- Order CB from Kane or IronDragon now and test it out 

- Wait till proof of concept results come out in early 2015 and decide again if you want to order it from Kane or anywhere else 

- Wait 4-5 years till it hits the market

----------


## UK_

All I need to wait for is the *safety results* from the acne trial.

I dont need the proof of a concept to ascertain its prevalence for systemic/local side effects.

----------


## yan

> All I need to wait for is the *safety results* from the acne trial.
> 
> I dont need the proof of a concept to ascertain its prevalence for systemic/local side effects.


 I agree with you, but I assume the proof of concept (phase 2a) test results also include some information about its safety profile. 

But you are right, safety results from the acne trial should also be enough. Are you aware that there are already european phase 2 results (with safety results) for acne?

----------


## UK_

> I agree with you, but I assume the proof of concept (phase 2a) test results also include some information about its safety profile. 
> 
> But you are right, safety results from the acne trial should also be enough. Are you aware that there are already european phase 2 results (with safety results) for acne?


 Yes but the comments made by boldy made me think twice about taking CB, which is why I am now after further clarity about safety, the acne results will provide this but I'm now forced YET AGAIN to wait another 6 months or more for those to come out (as Cosmo states Phase II results will be released in H1 2014).

I guess it could be worse.  Tempted to try Finasteride 0.25 once a week, dont know if it will be effective though.

----------


## yan

Meanwhile you could study the european acne results if you don`t already have: 

http://intrepidthera.com/wp-content/...ifu-et-al-.pdf

Most likely the results from US phase 2 won`t be different... 

And in a recent update, they said till now there are no major adverse events in US phase 2 for acne... 

I take 0.25 fin twice a week since 4 months. No sides, maintained most.

----------


## UK_

I dont even think Fin will help me, see I get this weird tingling sensation wherever I am thinning on my scalp... I get it worse on the crown and hair line (so I know for a fact the tingling is the MPB) and when I take fin there's no reduction in it.  I dont know what the hell that feeling is, whether its the follicles shrinking or the DHT attacking them or whatever.

Hope CB can help.

----------


## HairBane

> *It was a question, not a statement, YOU DUMB *****, next time read my post properly before jumping to insults you stupid little man.
> 
> The comment I was referring to was posted on Hair Loss Help, a quick google search for "boldy and heart failure" would bring up the post, but no, I guess idiots like you are too lazy to do that.
> 
> http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...hreadid=100052


 Chill out, no wonder you're going bald, it's all the stress, you little girl. Just don't spread rumours without also providing some source for your speculation and getting people worried, that's all. Silly billy.

----------


## UK_

> Chill out, no wonder you're going bald, it's all the stress, you little girl. Just don't spread rumours without also providing some source for your speculation and getting people worried, that's all. Silly billy.


 Speculation?  I asked two questions about a comment made by a user on a different forum.  Here look:

*Speculation*: _guess_: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.

*Question*: A sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information.

----------


## HairBane

> Speculation?  I asked two questions about a comment made by a user on a different forum.  Here look:
> 
> *Speculation*: _guess_: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.
> 
> *Question*: A sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information.


 Alright mate, whatever. But you used the term 'heart failure', when all it said in the thread was heart problems, you could've at least said pointed people to the thread. I just don't want people panicking unnecessarily. Lol let's just leave it there, no more rudeness, no more rumours.

----------


## DesperateOne

The hostility here is too damn high

----------


## UK_

> The hostility here is too damn high


 The heart is an important organ.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

I spoke with boldly today, it gave him an irregular heartbeat and chest pain... big difference from "heart failure".

also, if anyone has followed boldly's case he is hyper sensitive to all pharmaceuticals. he can't even use keto shampoo if I remember

that is all

----------


## DesperateOne

> I spoke with boldly today, it gave him an irregular heartbeat and chest pain... big difference from "heart failure".
> 
> also, if anyone has followed boldly's case he is hyper sensitive to all pharmaceuticals. he can't even use keto shampoo if I remember
> 
> that is all


 Wow that sucks for him big time, this shitty desease needs strong medicine and if he can't even use keto, he is screwed, I don't see him responding to anything unless he tries some cloned hair transplant which is years away.

----------


## Dees Dab

> I spoke with boldly today, it gave him an irregular heartbeat and chest pain... big difference from "heart failure".
> 
> also, if anyone has followed boldly's case he is hyper sensitive to all pharmaceuticals. he can't even use keto shampoo if I remember
> 
> that is all


 Do you know who he bought it from and what dates he took it?

----------


## clandestine

> Do you know who he bought it from and what dates he took it?


 It was 2 years ago, the CB was tested and the structure was apparently correct.

----------


## lilpauly

> It was 2 years ago, the CB was tested and the structure was apparently correct.


 Yea but know 1 knows the exact purity from years ago. It didn't dissolve 100% . Boldy had sides from everything

----------


## HARIRI

Guys, I got great news. The CB pre mixed formula is already available for real at Iron Dragon. They sent me an Email stating that its already shipped!  :Big Grin: 

Iron Dragon Research Peptides and Chemicals
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: 76158
Detailed Invoice: https://www.iron-dragon.com/account_...order_id=76158
Date Ordered: Sunday 25 August, 2013

The comments for your order are

Your order has been updated to the following status.

New status: Shipped

Please reply to this email if you have any questions.

----------


## HARIRI

Anyone else who ordered the CB pre mixed formula from Iron Dragon got the same Email last night?  :Cool:

----------


## Cob984

i didnt wtf, i want my cb, i ordered it way back

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

if it side free and works like in the studies i will buy it straight

----------


## HARIRI

> i didnt wtf, i want my cb, i ordered it way back


 Really! Sorry to hear that. If you need it urgently. I will send you one bottle. I ordered 3. Just give me you address and western union me the $45 and shipping cost  :Wink:

----------


## DesperateOne

> Really! Sorry to hear that. If you need it urgently. I will send you one bottle. I ordered 3. Just give me you address and western union me the $45 and shipping cost


 I don't understand, is the CB from iron dragon also just an experiment? Or was he able to show it works, what vehicle does he use and what ratio

----------


## StayThick

> Anyone else who ordered the CB pre mixed formula from Iron Dragon got the same Email last night?


 If you go on the site, you can't even order CB anymore. I can't find it under "selective anti-androgens" anymore. Think they realize they couldn't meet demand. Not sure what's going on there.

----------


## simba

> If you go on the site, you can't even order CB anymore. I can't find it under "selective anti-androgens" anymore. Think they realize they couldn't meet demand. Not sure what's going on there.


 Im sure itll be back. No business would stop selling a product because there was too much demand.

----------


## StayThick

> Im sure itll be back. No business would stop selling a product because there was too much demand.


 If they lack an adequate and reliable supplier, absolutely.

Curious to why it has taken them months to even ship the product from when they originally advertised its potential availability..

----------


## Cob984

> Really! Sorry to hear that. If you need it urgently. I will send you one bottle. I ordered 3. Just give me you address and western union me the $45 and shipping cost


 thanks man, if i dont get a confirmation by monday, i will do that,

----------


## UK_

What's the point in them selling one round of this stuff?

We need to use it on a month by month basis to see if it's even effective.

----------


## Cob984

> Really! Sorry to hear that. If you need it urgently. I will send you one bottle. I ordered 3. Just give me you address and western union me the $45 and shipping cost


 Hey man you get your stuff, can you give me your email id so we can coordinate?
thanks

----------


## HARIRI

HellOuser, Any updates about your CB usage? Any sexual sides? You are the only one I know that is using it along with Minoxidil without any RU. Also which percentage are you using now 1&#37; or 2%?

----------


## hellouser

> HellOuser, Any updates about your CB usage? Any sexual sides? You are the only one I know that is using it along with Minoxidil without any RU. Also which percentage are you using now 1% or 2%?


 *Dosage Concentration:* Between 1.2% and 1.8%
*Vehicle:* Everclear & PG (50/50 concentration)
*Dosage Amount:* 1ml - 1.5ml
*Frequency:* Once every day except for day of dermarolling
*Results After 2+ Weeks:* Reduced shedding, no regrowth yet.
*Side Effects:* None.

In regards to my side effects though, my libido in the last 1-2 weeks has been sky high, erections are rock hard, frequent morningwood, probably every day, but I don't always care to notice after waking up groggy, I hate mornings. 

Essentially, everything feels great with the exception of my psychological state from having a shitty hairline and lower density, but I think we're all at that stage regardless of treatments.

----------


## johnnynohair

Hey, men.

My Kane CB arrived this week, 2 grams - as a trade off between shipping costs and upfront costs.  The packaging etc were exactly as hellouser described earlier.

I just put about 0.5g of it into a bottle of 2&#37; minoxidil liquid. I was in a hurry to get going and I figured, there's PG and ethanol in there so that should work okay. Over the next month I'll work out what to do with the next 0.5g and go from there.

Today is roller day so I start tomorrow.  Quite excited.

JNH.

----------


## nliyan25

> *Dosage Concentration:* Between 1.2% and 1.8%
> *Vehicle:* Everclear & PG (50/50 concentration)
> *Dosage Amount:* 1ml - 1.5ml
> *Frequency:* Once every day except for day of dermarolling
> *Results After 2+ Weeks:* Reduced shedding, no regrowth yet.
> *Side Effects:* None.
> 
> In regards to my side effects though, my libido in the last 1-2 weeks has been sky high, erections are rock hard, frequent morningwood, probably every day, but I don't always care to notice after waking up groggy, I hate mornings. 
> 
> Essentially, everything feels great with the exception of my psychological state from having a shitty hairline and lower density, but I think we're all at that stage regardless of treatments.


 HEllouser, can you make any comparison in terms of CB vs. RU? Which do you find more effective--or is it simply too early to tell?

----------


## hellouser

> HEllouser, can you make any comparison in terms of CB vs. RU? Which do you find more effective--or is it simply too early to tell?


 Too early to tell. I'd need a 2-3 months to be able to tell. Or more than 3 months, who knows how long it takes for CB to work. You guys will know when I have results, I'll be updating my log thread.

----------


## HARIRI

> My Kane CB arrived this week, 2 grams - as a trade off between shipping costs and upfront costs.  The packaging etc were exactly as hellouser described earlier.
> 
> I just put about 0.5g of it into a bottle of 2% minoxidil liquid. I was in a hurry to get going and I figured, there's PG and ethanol in there so that should work okay. Over the next month I'll work out what to do with the next 0.5g and go from there.
> JNH.


 This is really interesting johnnynohair. Thats what I wanted to do before but one member mentioned that it could be sticky with very bad texture! Could you confirm that please? Is the texture of the Minoxidil is same after putting 0.5g of CB into it? Also does the bottle contain 60ml of Minoxidil? Keep us updated Bro.  :Wink:

----------


## HARIRI

> Hey, men.
> 
> My Kane CB arrived this week, 2 grams - as a trade off between shipping costs and upfront costs.  The packaging etc were exactly as hellouser described earlier.
> 
> I just put about 0.5g of it into a bottle of 2% minoxidil liquid. I was in a hurry to get going and I figured, there's PG and ethanol in there so that should work okay. Over the next month I'll work out what to do with the next 0.5g and go from there.
> 
> Today is roller day so I start tomorrow.  Quite excited.
> 
> JNH.


 Interesting. Thats what I wanted to do before but I read somewhere that the texture could become really bad and sticky. Could you please confirm that? Did the light texture remained the same after applying 0.5g into it? Also does the bottle contains 60ml of Minoxidil 2%? Thank you  :Big Grin:

----------


## HARIRI

> *Dosage Concentration:* Between 1.2% and 1.8%
> *Vehicle:* Everclear & PG (50/50 concentration)
> *Dosage Amount:* 1ml - 1.5ml
> *Frequency:* Once every day except for day of dermarolling
> *Results After 2+ Weeks:* Reduced shedding, no regrowth yet.
> *Side Effects:* None.
> 
> In regards to my side effects though, my libido in the last 1-2 weeks has been sky high, erections are rock hard, frequent morningwood, probably every day, but I don't always care to notice after waking up groggy, I hate mornings. 
> 
> Essentially, everything feels great with the exception of my psychological state from having a shitty hairline and lower density, but I think we're all at that stage regardless of treatments.


 Thanks for the details, however I think you better quit the everclear/PG formula and go back to Ethanol/PG. It seems more friendly and effective. You even mentioned positive things about that vehicle and how it stopped shedding.

----------


## johnnynohair

I'm not due to apply it til tonight but I just looked at the concoction via the dropper.  It's not sticky at all, tad cloudy but all seems to have all dissolved.

With my nonexistent chemistry I guessed the 2&#37; sort might still have room?

Yes, 60ml bottle.

The other 1.5g are wrapped up and in the freezer.

----------


## johnnynohair

Baseline pic of my crown (argh), taken in daylight, no flash, on my sofa. Christ it looks bad :-(

Day 1 of CB in 2% Minox.  Week 3 of dermarolling.

----------


## HARIRI

> I'm not due to apply it til tonight but I just looked at the concoction via the dropper.  It's not sticky at all, tad cloudy but all seems to have all dissolved.
> 
> With my nonexistent chemistry I guessed the 2% sort might still have room?
> 
> Yes, 60ml bottle.
> 
> The other 1.5g are wrapped up and in the freezer.


 I just visited the Kane Shop website, CB-03-01 is damn expensive. $200 per 1g ONLY!!! Which means $100/month if 0.5g is used per month. How much did you pay it for Buddy?  :Confused:

----------


## hellouser

> I just visited the Kane Shop website, CB-03-01 is damn expensive. $200 per 1g ONLY!!! Which means $100/month if 0.5g is used per month. How much did you pay it for Buddy?


 You shouldnt need to use 5% concentration, 1-2% should be fine.

----------


## HARIRI

> You shouldnt need to use 5% concentration, 1-2% should be fine.


 Im quite confused Bro, If my Regaine bottle has 60ml inside, How many mg of CB should I put in to get 1% concentration? Could you please give me a number?

----------


## Jens1986

10 mg in 1 ml = 1%

So for 60 ml you will need 600 mg / 0,6 g to get a 1% solution.

----------


## johnnynohair

Ahem.

I forgot that you take minoxidil twice a day *kicks self*. Dumbass, etc.

Stuck another 0.1g in my bottle this morning, so at 1ml/day that makes 60 days' worth. Hoping that by day 180 I'll have seen something.

In the mornings I use the 5% regaine (rogaine) foam. Apart from on rolling day when I don't.

Similar to a few other users here, it's hard to source ethanol in the UK, so if this quick-and-dirty-and-lazy method does something then great.

Hariri - shipping is $50 to here, I spent $450/£300.

----------


## HARIRI

> Ahem.
> 
> I forgot that you take minoxidil twice a day *kicks self*. Dumbass, etc.
> 
> Stuck another 0.1g in my bottle this morning, so at 1ml/day that makes 60 days' worth. Hoping that by day 180 I'll have seen something.
> 
> In the mornings I use the 5% regaine (rogaine) foam. Apart from on rolling day when I don't.
> 
> Similar to a few other users here, it's hard to source ethanol in the UK, so if this quick-and-dirty-and-lazy method does something then great.
> ...


 Well done. So you added 0.1mg to reach to 1% concentration. I heard once from hellouser or another member that CB should be mixed with a vehicle for a limited period cause it might lose its efficacy. Do you think it will be efficient if premixed for 60 days!

Im thinking after finishing my ID supply to divide my 60 ml regaine 5% into two bottles of 30ml so my mixed supply will last for 30 days then add another 0.3mg into the 30ml. Whats your opinion guys?

----------


## Avacfc

Quick question. If i was to stick 10mg of cb into 1.5ml of et/pg would i still get the same results as using 10mg in 1ml of et/pg. I would prefer to use more of the vehicle for better scalp coverage.

----------


## HARIRI

> Quick question. If i was to stick 10mg of cb into 1.5ml of et/pg would i still get the same results as using 10mg in 1ml of et/pg. I would prefer to use more of the vehicle for better scalp coverage.


 I think it would be so low if you go for less than 1%. You should atleast add 15mg in 1.5ml or 10mg in 1ml. Actually 1% is already low as members are increasing the dose. So I wouldnt advise you to be economic in using it if you are concerned in good results  :Smile:

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, 

Do we know when is the Alopecia trial set to start? I wish they could hurry up!


P.S. In the trials, patients had a 65&#37; increase in hair count within 2 months! I really don't know how is that possible BUT has anyone experienced anything positive so far?

----------


## brunobald

> Hey guys, 
> 
> Do we know when is the Alopecia trial set to start? I wish they could hurry up!
> 
> 
> P.S. In the trials, patients had a 65% increase in hair count within 2 months! I really don't know how is that possible BUT has anyone experienced anything positive so far?


 65% increase sounds a bit far fetched, even castrated men do not grow back a significant amount of hair in fact a lot continue to lose hair.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Hey guys, 
> 
> Do we know when is the Alopecia trial set to start? I wish they could hurry up!
> 
> 
> P.S. In the trials, patients had a 65% increase in hair count within 2 months! I really don't know how is that possible BUT has anyone experienced anything positive so far?


 What alopecia trial are you talking about, post link please.

----------


## yan

> 65&#37; increase sounds a bit far fetched, even castrated men do not grow back a significant amount of hair in fact a lot continue to lose hair.


 Its not far fetched, its proved through trials. 

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx

But please keep in mind, they applied via iontophoresis. I think we can`t expect such results with a topical. I would be happy with 20-30% regrowth.

----------


## yan

> Hey guys, 
> 
> Do we know when is the Alopecia trial set to start? I wish they could hurry up!


 Around March 2015.

Source:

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...25JAN13_v5.pdf 

Page 60

----------


## moore

> 65% increase sounds a bit far fetched, even castrated men do not grow back a significant amount of hair in fact a lot continue to lose hair.


 Excuse me for asking, what do you mean?
I've always thought castrated men do not lose hair if they are castrated before puberty..I guess that, if a man get castrated after puberty, the onset of MPB is already started .. or am I wrong?

----------


## DesperateOne

> Around March 2015.
> 
> Source:
> 
> http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...25JAN13_v5.pdf 
> 
> Page 60


 That is so far away, God dammit. Well I guess we're going to have to live with this disease longer than we thought, it doesn't make sense that they take so freaking long. Don't get it approved by the FDA, just freaking sell it as a cosmetic.

----------


## yan

My bad guys!! 

Trial start is around March 2014, NOT 2015. So in about 6 months.

They plan to FINISH the proof of concept in March 2015.

I`m sorry for this mistake...

----------


## DesperateOne

So I guess we're going to have to rely on the CB people that are experimenting with the drug. I do hope it works for them. Does anyone know if it would be possible to get results from CB if you're on fin already?

----------


## hellouser

> So I guess we're going to have to rely on the CB people that are experimenting with the drug. I do hope it works for them. Does anyone know if it would be possible to get results from CB if you're on fin already?


 Once you cut out DHT theres only so much you can regrow. Growth factors would then be needed.

----------


## yan

> So I guess we're going to have to rely on the CB people that are experimenting with the drug. I do hope it works for them. Does anyone know if it would be possible to get results from CB if you're on fin already?


 Well I guess no one knows... 

I can only tell you that CB blocks not only DHT Type 2 & 3 like fin, but also Type 1 and Testosterone. It also haves some anti-inflammatory properties. It will most likely block way more DHT than fin, if this will result in more hairs, despite you being on fin, I don`t know.

----------


## HARIRI

> Well I guess no one knows... 
> 
> I can only tell you that CB blocks not only DHT Type 2 & 3 like fin, but also Type 1 and Testosterone. It also haves some anti-inflammatory properties. It will most likely block way more DHT than fin, if this will result in more hairs, despite you being on fin, I don`t know.


 Basically its like a Finasteride without any sexual sides. CB-03-01 is indeed a hidden Gem. Only difference is instead of swallowing it you will just apply it topically. Cosmo Labs is going to make fortune. Forza Italia  :Big Grin:

----------


## HARIRI

> Well I guess no one knows... 
> 
> I can only tell you that CB blocks not only DHT Type 2 & 3 like fin, but also Type 1 and Testosterone. It also haves some anti-inflammatory properties. It will most likely block way more DHT than fin, if this will result in more hairs, despite you being on fin, I don`t know.


 You pulled the trigger here yan, cant wait to receive my Iron Dragon pre mixed supply next week. Even if Iron Dragon stopped selling it in the future. I will order the powder formula from Kane and may add it into my Regaine 5% or mix it alone with Ethanol. Im willing to spend for anything that does not affect my libido and sexual life.  :Cool:  :Cool:  :Cool:

----------


## win200

Did my first application of CB last night.  Pretty easy, although 1ml doesn't go too far.  And I'm trying to apply to the sides to halt some slight retrograde alopecia. 

Is CB supposed to stack up favorably against Propecia?  I.e., halt loss completely?

----------


## HARIRI

> Ahem.
> 
> I forgot that you take minoxidil twice a day *kicks self*. Dumbass, etc.
> 
> Stuck another 0.1g in my bottle this morning, so at 1ml/day that makes 60 days' worth. Hoping that by day 180 I'll have seen something.
> 
> In the mornings I use the 5% regaine (rogaine) foam. Apart from on rolling day when I don't.
> 
> Similar to a few other users here, it's hard to source ethanol in the UK, so if this quick-and-dirty-and-lazy method does something then great.
> ...


 johnnynohair, any updates of your Regaine-CB mix? I'm just really interested in your case as I am thinking of doing the same to save time applying them in different times and wait for an hour in between! Is the liquid texture still the same? Do you feel any benefits? I hope everything is doing fine.  :Smile:

----------


## johnnynohair

Hey; I'm only on Day 4 so it's a bit early to say anything, 5th application is tonight.

Cautiously I might agree with the others that shedding seems reduced in the hand or in the sink. Might be seeing what I want to see, though.

----------


## Cob984

> Hey; I'm only on Day 4 so it's a bit early to say anything, 5th application is tonight.
> 
> Cautiously I might agree with the others that shedding seems reduced in the hand or in the sink. Might be seeing what I want to see, though.


 Hey man, did the texture of the regaine change when you mixed the cb in?
Did it get heavier, sticky or start leaving residue on scalp?
Just curious

----------


## win200

> Hey; I'm only on Day 4 so it's a bit early to say anything, 5th application is tonight.
> 
> Cautiously I might agree with the others that shedding seems reduced in the hand or in the sink. Might be seeing what I want to see, though.


 I hate that effect.  And you can convince yourself that you're shedding less by not fiddling with your hair during the day, which means you won't brush any hairs off your head and onto your desk or whatever.  Instead, they just stay on your hair and fall off on your pillow, in the shower, etc., but you just don't see them.  The truth is, it's really difficult to monitor how much you're shedding.

----------


## johnnynohair

I dunno if the texture changed, I didn't check, but it's not sticky now. I put it on at bedtime anyway, 5% foam in the daytime.

----------


## win200

Quick question, probably for Hell:  is there any reason to think that a 70/30 vehicle isn't the way to go, or why the premixed KB solution shouldn't be used as a vehicle for CB?

----------


## Cob984

> Quick question, probably for Hell:  is there any reason to think that a 70/30 vehicle isn't the way to go, or why the premixed KB solution shouldn't be used as a vehicle for CB?


 KB is rubbish as a vehicle, i have tried it extensively with 0 results
thats why im not too hopeful of eth/pg either, hope im wrong

----------


## HARIRI

Has anyone received the premixed CB-03-01 from Iron Dragon? According to them, mine was shipped on September 6! I'm still waiting for my bottles to arrive. It would be appreciated if anyone out there confirm receiving them  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

> KB is rubbish as a vehicle, i have tried it extensively with 0 results
> thats why im not too hopeful of eth/pg either, hope im wrong


 Im using ethanol/PG and its working fine.

But you're right about kb being rubbish, ethanol/pg is far superior in terms of CB.

----------


## Cob984

> Im using ethanol/PG and its working fine.
> 
> But you're right about kb being rubbish, ethanol/pg is far superior in terms of CB.


 What else are you on? How long on the CB? Seeing results/stabilization?

----------


## UK_

Just to let you guys know, its 4 days into CB treatment and im suffering from noticable sexual sides, low libido - seriously, nothing whatsoever is turning me on, no morning erections, havent had an erection all day which is very strange to say the least.

Wont be taking this garbage anymore.

*CB is the only thing I'm on, so it cant be anything else.*

----------


## 25 going on 65

> Just to let you guys know, its 4 days into CB treatment and im suffering from noticable sexual sides, low libido - seriously, nothing whatsoever is turning me on, no morning erections, havent had an erection all day which is very strange to say the least.
> 
> Wont be taking this garbage anymore.
> 
> *CB is the only thing I'm on, so it cant be anything else.*


 Adjustment period? Maybe give it 1-2 months?

----------


## simba

> Just to let you guys know, its 4 days into CB treatment and im suffering from noticable sexual sides, low libido - seriously, nothing whatsoever is turning me on, no morning erections, havent had an erection all day which is very strange to say the least.
> 
> Wont be taking this garbage anymore.
> 
> *CB is the only thing I'm on, so it cant be anything else.*


 Youre either talking shit or its placebo.

How long have you been "suffering" from these sides? 6 hours?

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> Just to let you guys know, its 4 days into CB treatment and im suffering from noticable sexual sides, low libido - seriously, nothing whatsoever is turning me on, no morning erections, havent had an erection all day which is very strange to say the least.
> 
> Wont be taking this garbage anymore.
> 
> *CB is the only thing I'm on, so it cant be anything else.*


 
Depression can easily cause this, more so than a topical steroid. CB does not effect hormone levels so i dont see it being the cause.

----------


## yan

I'm sorry to say this uk, but this is most likely placebo. Dude they test cb since years, they never reported ANY systemic effects. No test showed even a slight change in hormonal levels. They conducted european phase 2 tests on dozens and systemic effects weren't even reported in a single case. Furthermore, dozens if not hundreds tested various cb forms in various vehicles over the last years. No one reported sexual sides! Hellouser even mentioned his rock hard erections.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## yan

Lol this would be crazy. CB's biggest asset is that its nearly side effect free. Else it wouldnt make any sense to develop this drug. Believe me, cosmo must be really really sure it doesnt have same side effects like fin, else they would waste millions for developing a drug which isnt better as current treatments available. 

And btw. even if I'm not on treatments it happens that I don't have morning erections and low libido for several days.

----------


## UK_

> Youre either talking shit or its placebo.
> 
> How long have you been "suffering" from these sides? 6 hours?


 Shut up you moron.

----------


## hellouser

> Just to let you guys know, its 4 days into CB treatment and im suffering from noticable sexual sides, low libido - seriously, nothing whatsoever is turning me on, no morning erections, havent had an erection all day which is very strange to say the least.
> 
> Wont be taking this garbage anymore.
> 
> *CB is the only thing I'm on, so it cant be anything else.*


 I've been on Kane's CB for about 3 weeks and my libido is MUCH higher. If in fact what your putting on your head is causing those side effects, I highly doubt its CB.

----------


## UK_

> I've been on Kane's CB for about 3 weeks and my libido is MUCH higher. If in fact what your putting on your head is causing those side effects, I highly doubt its CB.


 All I know is that before I started applying CB my sex drive was normal, I'd get spontaneous erections all the time, I'd have morning erections and sexual fantasies and thoughts would occupy my mind every half-hour... right now... ALL of the above are completely absent, I cant even get it up to the most erotic porn... I feel exactly how I felt when I came off propecia (because of sides).

Its almost as if (from EVERYTHING ive tried) nature is telling me I must trade my sexual function if I want to keep my hair, which isnt going to happen in this lifetime.

----------


## yan

> All I know is that before I started applying CB my sex drive was normal, I'd get spontaneous erections all the time, I'd have morning erections and sexual fantasies and thoughts would occupy my mind every half-hour... right now... ALL of the above are completely absent, I cant even get it up to the most erotic porn... I feel exactly how I felt when I came off propecia (because of sides).
> 
> Its almost as if (from EVERYTHING ive tried) nature is telling me I must trade my sexual function if I want to keep my hair, which isnt going to happen in this lifetime.


 I`m sorry to hear this UK. But if I were you, I would wait at least another week and if it stays like that, then drop it. 

I know its annoying if people tell you its only in your head. A lot said this about fin sufferers too. But the difference is, fin affects hormonal levels, but cb not. Thats a proven fact. 

If you are unsure, wait till March 2014, then we have the big phase 2 cb acne results and will know much more about cb`s safety profile and possible side effects.

----------


## UK_

> I`m sorry to hear this UK. But if I were you, I would wait at least another week and if it stays like that, then drop it.


 Fair enough, but from how I feel right now there's no way id even touch that stuff again, I hope the people who use this have success, its clearly not for me, ive posted my feedback I thought you all should know anyway thanks for reading.

----------


## UK_

> I`m sorry to hear this UK. But if I were you, I would wait at least another week and if it stays like that, then drop it. 
> 
> I know its annoying if people tell you its only in your head. A lot said this about fin sufferers too. But the difference is, fin affects hormonal levels, but cb not. Thats a proven fact. 
> 
> If you are unsure, *wait till March 2014*, then we have the big phase 2 cb acne results and will know much more about cb`s safety profile and possible side effects.


 By March 2014 I will probably be a NW8.

----------


## HARIRI

UK_, which CB did you use? Was Kane shop your supplier or you got it from somewhere else? Also how much was the CB percentage in your vehicle? Was it 1% or more?  :Confused:

----------


## Cob984

wow this is depressing as ****,
I mean technically RU doesnt alter hormone levels but it can still affect libido bad,

I hope this isnt true

----------


## clandestine

> wow this is depressing as ****,
> I mean technically RU doesnt alter hormone levels but it can still affect libido bad,
> 
> I hope this isnt true


 Honestly dude I wouldn't hold much merit to what UK is saying.

----------


## burtandernie

If you take a completely untested experimental chemical and use it then you get whatever happens to you. Its not approved to be anything except risky. Its a joke to think it cant be absorbed systemically just like any internal.

----------


## clandestine

> If you take a completely untested experimental chemical and use it then you get whatever happens to you. Its not approved to be anything except risky. Its a joke to think it cant be absorbed systemically just like any internal.


 No one is claiming it can't be absorbed systemically. This is besides the point.

Also, you realize what forum section your in? Cutting Edge and Future Treatments? Yeah, we realize the risks. That's the point. We're looking beyond conventional treatments.

And have you at all researched before posting? CB is not untested. Wow.

Cheers.

----------


## yan

> If you take a completely untested experimental chemical and use it then you get whatever happens to you. Its not approved to be anything except risky. Its a joke to think it cant be absorbed systemically just like any internal.


 This is so untrue. I would love if people would read the whole thread before even considering posting anything about a treatment. Its tested, but I'm so tired to post the links to the studies again and again. They are going to release CB as an acne treatment in 2-3 years, and it has been tested various times in european phase 1,2 and us phase 1 tests. But believe what you want.

----------


## oppenheimer82

> All I know is that before I started applying CB my sex drive was normal, I'd get spontaneous erections all the time, I'd have morning erections and sexual fantasies and thoughts would occupy my mind every half-hour... right now... ALL of the above are completely absent, I cant even get it up to the most erotic porn... I feel exactly how I felt when I came off propecia (because of sides).
> 
> Its almost as if (from EVERYTHING ive tried) nature is telling me I must trade my sexual function if I want to keep my hair, which isnt going to happen in this lifetime.


 maybe kane accidently shipped you ru instead of cb, have you thought of that?

----------


## The Dark Knight

Kane has just sent my CB today, I'm not on anything else either, so I'll let you guys know how it goes, I hope it really is side effect free, sorry to hear that UK_

----------


## johnnynohair

As it stands I'm not getting any sexual sides whatever, seven days in.

That's not to contradict anyone else's findings, I mean my brother's allergic to penicillin and I'm not  :Big Grin: 

Shedding definitely down too.

----------


## Cob984

Did anyone receive their iron dragon CB yet?? dunno wtf these morons are doing,

----------


## HARIRI

> As it stands I'm not getting any sexual sides whatever, seven days in.
> 
> That's not to contradict anyone else's findings, I mean my brother's allergic to penicillin and I'm not 
> 
> Shedding definitely down too.


 johnnynohair, I am so inspired by your experience. Its great to know that CB works even if added to Regaine solution. One of my biggest worries before is to wait 1-2 hours to apply Regaine after my CB application. I guess with your way I can apply all once and then go to bed without any hassle. Keep us updated Bro  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

----------


## hellouser

> maybe kane accidently shipped you ru instead of cb, have you thought of that?


 +1.

UK, does your CB look anything like mine?

----------


## UK_

> +1.
> 
> UK, does your CB look anything like mine?


 CB from ID hell.

Sorry I havent posted, too depressed because now I know I have no way of treating my hair loss.

 :Frown:

----------


## clandestine

> CB from ID hell.
> 
> Sorry I havent posted, too depressed because now I know I have no way of treating my hair loss.


 Why not buy from Kane?

----------


## yan

> As it stands I'm not getting any sexual sides whatever, seven days in.
> 
> That's not to contradict anyone else's findings, I mean my brother's allergic to penicillin and I'm not 
> 
> Shedding definitely down too.


 You are like the third person in the last two weeks alone reporting decrease in shedding after only about 1 week. Im quite optimistic about CB`s future. We have to consider that we use it only at 1&#37; and with a non-perfect vehicle. 

I really hope CB will one day replace fin.

----------


## chimera

> If you take a completely untested experimental chemical and use it then you get whatever happens to you. Its not approved to be anything except risky. Its a joke to think it cant be absorbed systemically just like any internal.


 Do you even know what CB is?, but of course it gets absorbed systemically genius, the point is that, when it does, it gets transformed into a harmless metabolite. CB does not alter hormone levels.

Still, it is concerning what happened to UK...

----------


## hellouser

> CB from ID hell.
> 
> Sorry I havent posted, too depressed because now I know I have no way of treating my hair loss.


 Uh, why did you get Iron Dragon's CB? I wouldn't trust them at all, they don't even post their purity tests. Order a single gram from Kane, something tells me you got screwed by ID.

No one that has ordered from Kane has reported any sexual sides.

----------


## win200

Just some initial, informal feedback, but after five days applying CB to hairline only, I *think* shedding has reduced a bit.  But as we know, you can have on/off days with shedding in the normal course of things, so I won't read too much into this.  A tad optimistic, though.  I've been doing 15mg with 60/40 everclear/PG.

----------


## HARIRI

UK_, The first batch of Iron Dragon CB was shipped by September 6th. I still didn't receive mine, surprised that you got it by September 9th because on September 14th you mentioned that you were on it for 4 days. Could you tell me how much ml in each bottle and what is the concentration of CB in one bottle of ID?

Also could you kindly post a photo of Iron Dragon CB bottle? I'm really curious. Thanks mate.

----------


## Cob984

hey uk, if you cant use the idrag cb anymore, can you ship the remaining bottle to me?

----------


## HARIRI

> As it stands I'm not getting any sexual sides whatever, seven days in.
> 
> That's not to contradict anyone else's findings, I mean my brother's allergic to penicillin and I'm not 
> 
> Shedding definitely down too.


 Its almost two weeks now. How do you find things going on? Do you feel its effective although its mixed with Regaine? Also any minor sides? Please share. Thanks Buddy  :Big Grin:

----------


## johnnynohair

I'm cautiously optimistic. Looks much the same but of course, you'd have to reactivate the dead/dormant hairs first and then grow them, so that's weeks away. Shedding is down, libido intact, so great.

I was also thinking that 2% minox might be more effective for dissolving CB than 5% if it's farther away from saturation point. I can't know that without the formulation for each, nonetheless that's why I chose 2% for my mixture.

JNH

----------


## HARIRI

> I'm cautiously optimistic. Looks much the same but of course, you'd have to reactivate the dead/dormant hairs first and then grow them, so that's weeks away. Shedding is down, libido intact, so great.
> 
> I was also thinking that 2% minox might be more effective for dissolving CB than 5% if it's farther away from saturation point. I can't know that without the formulation for each, nonetheless that's why I chose 2% for my mixture.
> 
> JNH


 Actually one of the generic Minoxidil producers made a comparison chart of Minoxidil formulas ingredients and it happens that Rogaine 5% and Rogaine 2% were there. I was surprised to know that a 60ml bottle of Regaine 2% has 36ml Ethanol, 12ml PG and 12ml water. While a 60ml bottle of Regaine 5% has 18ml Ethanol, 30ml PG and 12ml water. One has more Ethanol and one has more PG! Do you think it would make a difference?  :Confused:

----------


## HARIRI

> I'm cautiously optimistic. Looks much the same but of course, you'd have to reactivate the dead/dormant hairs first and then grow them, so that's weeks away. Shedding is down, libido intact, so great.
> 
> I was also thinking that 2% minox might be more effective for dissolving CB than 5% if it's farther away from saturation point. I can't know that without the formulation for each, nonetheless that's why I chose 2% for my mixture.
> 
> JNH


 JNH, It has been a week now since your last update. Is there anything new? Im about to receive my CB by the end of this week.  :Big Grin:

----------


## johnnynohair

As I understand it, the ethanol dissolves it and the PG makes it work, so it would depend whether the lower quantity of ethanol was anywhere near saturation for either compound. Which not being a chemist I couldn't say.

Update for week 3: my front density seems improved. That 'wince' when you notice skin through a thin bit isn't happening so much. Crown area is harder to analyse since I only look at it via two mirrors every other day.  That said, it's definitely not summer anymore so could conceivably also be the light.

----------


## UK_

> hey uk, if you cant use the idrag cb anymore, can you ship the remaining bottle to me?


 Sorry I cant do that, I got rid of it at a local chemical disposal unit.

Yes, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD dont throw chemicals/drugs down the freaking toilet or dump them into the environment - ive seen people on here make posts where they state they've thrown FIN/DUT etc etc down the toilet which is environMENTAL suicide.

I know most people from the UK are informed about this as we get council warnings every few years (even about spilling fats down the sink which is also ****ing retarded).

----------


## Cob984

> Sorry I cant do that, I got rid of it at a local chemical disposal unit.
> 
> Yes, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD dont throw chemicals/drugs down the freaking toilet or dump them into the environment - ive seen people on here make posts where they state they've thrown FIN/DUT etc etc down the toilet which is environMENTAL suicide.
> 
> I know most people from the UK are informed about this as we get council warnings every few years (even about spilling fats down the sink which is also ****ing retarded).


 LMAO, Yea right, quick! onto the BS Mobile

----------


## UK_

> LMAO, Yea right, quick! onto the BS Mobile


 :/ meh.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> :/ meh.


 
i liked the other  comment better.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

sigh, where is adam k?

----------


## Cob984

> :/ meh.


 i did read your original comment, whatever dude
you went through all the trouble to dispose it off at a local pharmacy instead of leaving it unused ? hahahahah, yea right ok

----------


## HARIRI

> :/ meh.


 Bro, you should at least contacted Iron Dragon and ask them for a refund by sending it back to them as it works sometimes. My friend here is waiting for the second batch to reach to him, can you tell me how does the bottle look like and how the texture of the liquid is? Just a mini description please!  :Smile:

----------


## sdsurfin

Anyone have anything to report vis a vis CB?  To me this seems to be the only new topical (or treatment in general besides propecia- those histogen, replicel, follica joints haven't come up with jack)  with any potential for slowing down hair loss.

----------


## pat

> Anyone have anything to report vis a vis CB?  To me this seems to be the only new topical (or treatment in general besides propecia- those histogen, replicel, follica joints haven't come up with jack)  with any potential for slowing down hair loss.


 I think we'll see a lot of people reporting on progress, results and positive notes on CB within the next few months, and early 2014

----------


## Dazza

Asking for results when you just posted a rant including this quote..




> Most of you guys on here seem to be balder than I am, *so my advice is to stop wasting time on these forums, accept your genetics, and make something useful of your lives.*


 Ironic really.

----------


## UK_

Accepting baldness is impossible, it will always be in the back of your mind somewhere at some point.

----------


## sdsurfin

I have many bald friends who have accepted the fact that they are bald. in a way i'm kind of bummed i didnt go bald really early on in life, because those who did are much more at ease with it. Do they love it? nope.  Do they really care? most of them don't.  The smarter/richer/most accomplished/fitter ones care much less.  My ex girlfriend is hot and just married one of the baldest dudes I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure that while he might be all for a cure, he doesn't give two shits or spend any of his day worrying about his baldness.  I know some other bald guys who, and i quote, wouldn't even pay a hundred bucks for a cure, they like how they look after getting used to it.  Most of the guys on here seem to be pretty young, and as a slightly older guy, let me tell you, unless you want to be sad your whole life, you have to at least try to gain some level of acceptance, and not waste your life dedicated to the pursuit of hating this problem.  Science will definitely find a way to ameliorate this and other very complex genetic problems, hell they'll probably even stop aging at some point, but all of it is very tied up in things that we are nowhere even close to figuring out. If we do, wonderful! but until then whats the point of feeling shitty every day? 

Also, the fact that I'm curious about results isn't ironic at all. I'd love it if something worked to slow balding.  I don't put any stock in any of these treatments though, they just don't seem to really get at the real problem, and while I may check into this forum to see if there's something that can help me look better for a while, I also wouldn't be on here all the time.  it seems really unhealthy.  UK Ive read some of your posts and you seem very young, very immature, and settled on ruining your happiness over this.  I have days like that too, hell even months.  But it's a long road to nowhere, if you would rather be dead then you would have killed yourself, so while you're alive and there's no real cure anywhere near in sight, you should try to build acceptance skills, because it is possible.  Lots of people have much worse genetic defects or health problems and while they may not like them, they do accept them.  just look at the dalai lama, that dude is bald as **** and he's happy as **** too.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Accepting baldness is impossible, it will always be in the back of your mind somewhere at some point.


 True. Even old men/middle aged men who wear hats to cover their baldness, have moved on unhappily. Which is why they cover it and aren't really comfortable showing their bald heads around. To me, that's not accepting it. Wigs, hair tattoos, none of this is "accepting it", you did something about it.

Accepting MPB and moving on is Stone Cold Steve Austin, Vin Diesel, Dana White (President of UFC), Floyd Mayweather Jr (pro boxer), Andre Agassi, Albert Pujols (MLB), John Statham, I could go on and on. These guys have moved on. And even though one can say "Well they're rich as hell, they are not going to care about baldness" I agree 100% that money has a lot to do with them being able to stay happy even with going through baldness, but just as there are celebs/athletes who move on, they are many more who just won't accept it.

----------


## hellouser

> Accepting MPB and moving on is Stone Cold Steve Austin, Vin Diesel, Dana White (President of UFC), Floyd Mayweather Jr (pro boxer), Andre Agassi, Albert Pujols (MLB), John Statham, I could go on and on. These guys have moved on. And even though one can say "Well they're rich as hell, they are not going to care about baldness" I agree 100% that money has a lot to do with them being able to stay happy even with going through baldness, but just as there are celebs/athletes who move on, they are many more who just won't accept it.


 Those guys are also infinitely more attractive than nearly all of us to begin with anyway. Not a legitimate example.

----------


## yan

> Accepting MPB and moving on is Stone Cold Steve Austin, Vin Diesel, Dana White (President of UFC), Floyd Mayweather Jr (pro boxer), Andre Agassi, Albert Pujols (MLB), John Statham, I could go on and on.


 Nearly all of them are extremely muscular. I don`t think they are generally more attractive than most of us here, they just work out much more. As long as you look buff, it`s not that bad to be bald. I also know several bald persons in my gym, the more muscular they are, the more they look good bald.

----------


## lilpauly

what about this for a vehicle:


http://phlojelultra.us/Order.html

u could dissolve the cb into pg or ethanol and mix it with this.

boldy broguht it to my attention. it could increase sides but its better then dmso

----------


## PayDay

> True. Even old men/middle aged men who wear hats to cover their baldness, have moved on unhappily. Which is why they cover it and aren't really comfortable showing their bald heads around. To me, that's not accepting it. Wigs, hair tattoos, none of this is "accepting it", you did something about it.
> 
> Accepting MPB and moving on is Stone Cold Steve Austin, Vin Diesel, Dana White (President of UFC), Floyd Mayweather Jr (pro boxer), Andre Agassi, Albert Pujols (MLB), John Statham, I could go on and on. These guys have moved on. And even though one can say "Well they're rich as hell, they are not going to care about baldness" I agree 100% that money has a lot to do with them being able to stay happy even with going through baldness, but just as there are celebs/athletes who move on, they are many more who just won't accept it.


 I have personally been able to deal with it much better over the years because I've done well on Propecia and having thinner hair at this age is not out of the ordinary. Full exceptence of being  bald would be very tough for me, but if push came to shove I would handle it.

I draw a lot of inspiration from Spencer Kobren and his openness about his own hair loss. I think it takes incredible strength to admit to the world that hair loss really sucks and effected him so much! That takes guts so I thought if he can go on the radio and on camera telling everyone how he feels I can have the strength to talk about it with family and friends and that has freed me.  You never really get over it 100% but it does get a lot better and doesn't have to really effect your life unless you let it.

----------


## amadeus

I also feel much better about it, but haven't been able to move past it and completely embrace it. Our options are really limited and it can be frustrating, but there are much worse things in life to be forced to deal with.

----------


## Cob984

Having bad weight gain sides on the cb, same shit i experienced on RU
what a buzzkill

----------


## pat

> Having bad weight gain sides on the cb, same shit i experienced on RU
> what a buzzkill


 And how would you know that's because of CB.........

----------


## Cob984

Because im using it? i was using cb in kb, and got no sides or results, clearly wrong vehicle,

Put it in eth/pg and i feel absolutely miserable, same rubbish on RU, bloated stomach, slight tingling in nips, 
I cant believe im getting sides from cb, these sides are worse than RU in fact, 
Ru gradually took time to build up and fk my body over, cb has literally fked me in 3 days,
Going to quit it, im doomed

----------


## The Dark Knight

I hate to add to this but I've had 5 applications and the same shit as RU but less pronounced, tingling in testicles, much less frequent erections and when I do get them they are pretty weak and I havent even been applying the full 1ml, had to lower it to 5ml after the first night. On the bright side, it seems to be doing good for my hair, no mbp itch, and it only starts reappearring after more than 24 hours since the last application but this is no f***ing good if it causes sides....

I really hope it is the vehicle thats causing this, I might just try once every other day for a month to see if my body can adapt

----------


## Cob984

it might be the vehicle? when i put it in kb i can apply a whole bucket on my head with no sides, but minimal results,

With eth/pg the hair effect is immediate but so are the sides, these are really brutal

----------


## The Dark Knight

> it might be the vehicle? when i put it in kb i can apply a whole bucket on my head with no sides, but minimal results,
> 
> With eth/pg the hair effect is immediate but so are the sides, these are really brutal


 That lends weight to that theory but this makes me wonder what the hell are cosmo using? The vehicle we're all using might not cause it to metabolise properly in the blood or alters it or something

----------


## yan

> That lends weight to that theory but this makes me wonder what the hell are cosmo using? The vehicle we're all using might not cause it to metabolise properly in the blood or alters it or something


 It must be the vehicle, because cosmo already proofed in european phase 2 acne study that cb, at least in cosmo`s cream, doesn`t affect hormonal levels. 

I dont think there is another way to experience the described side effects if not via hormones.

----------


## yan

And as I already said before, in around 3 months alopecia phase 1 will end and by then we know about its safety, at least in cosmo`s vehicle. 

As we don`t know their vehicle, it won`t help us much, but at least we know that cb can be safe in a proper vehicle.

----------


## pat

> And how would you know that's because of CB.........


 


> Because im using it


 Lol great answer.

No offense but I personally wouldn't take your sides & negative feedback about CB with much value. Considering your thread below (link) and your sensitivity to seemingly everything...

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...017#post147017

But same goes for when I see someone post positive results with something, then find out they're using like 10 other things that I'm not on.

----------


## Amercancer

I really feel like ordering cb but don't know what to do with it. What should I do?

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

everyones gettin sides from cb now?

----------


## hellouser

> everyones gettin sides from cb now?


 I'm not.

----------


## pat

> everyones gettin sides from cb now?


 No, 1 of those guys above made a thread before saying he got sides from everything he's tried so far. Perhaps it's placebo at this point, maybe PFS, or just extremely sensitive.

I would really like to see someone use something like RU or CB without ever taken fin/dut. Perhaps even not using minox either (not to disregard its effectiveness but for other reasons)

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

i have cb coming soon. will post pics and updates

----------


## The Dark Knight

> No, 1 of those guys above made a thread before saying he got sides from everything he's tried so far. Perhaps it's placebo at this point, maybe PFS, or just extremely sensitive.
> 
> I would really like to see someone use something like RU or CB without ever taken fin/dut. Perhaps even not using minox either (not to disregard its effectiveness but for other reasons)


 
I'm using CB and used RU without taking any of those but to be fair, I think I'm sensitive when it comes to taking androgen blockers

----------


## HARIRI

No choice then, I guess Im left with Regaine 5% and Keratene Alphactive Retard. I have to wait until early 2014, when we have phase 2 acne results + phase 1 alopecia results  :Confused:

----------


## Cob984

while i dont deny i get side from all androgen related stuff, the sides in the 3 days of cb have been easily some of the worst i have experienced, i was on RU for almost 3 months before droppin it , i couldnt even make it to day 4 of cb

----------


## cp9

> I'm using CB and used RU without taking any of those but to be fair, I think I'm sensitive when it comes to taking androgen blockers


 How's your progress on CB so far?

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

so...what happened to this adam k guy? he sure stopped posting pretty quick...

----------


## HairBane

> so...what happened to this adam k guy? he sure stopped posting pretty quick...


 probably busy with his PhD

----------


## UK_

> while i dont deny i get side from all androgen related stuff, the sides in the 3 days of cb have been easily some of the worst i have experienced, i was on RU for almost 3 months before droppin it , i couldnt even make it to day 4 of cb


 I told you - CB seriously ****ed me up.

----------


## The Dark Knight

> And as I already said before, in around 3 months alopecia phase 1 will end and by then we know about its safety, at least in cosmo`s vehicle. 
> 
> As we don`t know their vehicle, it won`t help us much, but at least we know that cb can be safe in a proper vehicle.


 Is there no way we can find the proper vehicle by our selves?




> How's your progress on CB so far?


 I think it definately works for hair but the it has sides that are like RU's but less potent for me, I took a break last night, and Im debating whether to try every other day with a small dosage, definately couldn't apply it everyday at 1ml.

----------


## StayThick

> so...what happened to this adam k guy? he sure stopped posting pretty quick...


 I always thought the guy was a fraud. Besides talking proper and mentioning he was studying for his PhD, he contributed nothing of substance.

He doesn't know jack. I noticed everyone on this forum latches on to anyone that sounds half-way intelligent that mentions he has a chemistry degree / studying for their PhD, blah blah.

Guy was a joke.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> I always thought the guy was a fraud. Besides talking proper and mentioning he was studying for his PhD, he contributed nothing of substance.
> 
> He doesn't know jack. I noticed everyone on this forum latches on to anyone that sounds half-way intelligent that mentions he has a chemistry degree / studying for their PhD, blah blah.
> 
> Guy was a joke.


 you're a twat, dude. I've had many conversations with Adam in private. he's going through a hard time emotionally right now and I sense that is why he hasn't been around. you're no different calling someone a fraud without knowing him as people are for latching on. assumptions are assumptions

----------


## Cob984

Well i am never applying Cb ever again in an ethanol/pg vehicle, 
My body is slowly coming back to normal, feels like coming off a bad trip,

Even RU was way way more tolerable,

----------


## StayThick

> you're a twat, dude. I've had many conversations with Adam in private. he's going through a hard time emotionally right now and I sense that is why he hasn't been around. you're no different calling someone a fraud without knowing him as people are for latching on. assumptions are assumptions


 Twat? Lol. Hey douchebag, from reading all his posts, that's my opinion.

If he is going through something emotionally, I have sympathy for him.

Doesn't change how I feel after reading all of his posts.

----------


## StayThick

> Well i am never applying Cb ever again in an ethanol/pg vehicle, 
> My body is slowly coming back to normal, feels like coming off a bad trip,
> 
> Even RU was way way more tolerable,


 This is extremely disconcerting. Sorry to hear that cob.

----------


## HairBane

Hasn't CB already been through acne safety trials? If the side-effects were that bad wouldn't they have binned it by now?

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> Twat? Lol. Hey douchebag, from reading all his posts, that's my opinion.
> 
> If he is going through something emotionally, I have sympathy for him.
> 
> Doesn't change how I feel after reading all of his posts.


 yeah bro, twat. how would he even be a fraud... he isn't selling anything or trying to deceive people. he's looking for the same info on safety and a vehicle of this compound. don't be a prick

----------


## chimera

> Well i am never applying Cb ever again in an ethanol/pg vehicle, 
> My body is slowly coming back to normal, feels like coming off a bad trip,
> 
> Even RU was way way more tolerable,


 So, you got sides on CB... even though CB does not interfere with your hormonal chemistry in any way...

And you also had sides on keratene... even though the blood test made by some forum members showed that it did not really worked reducing DHT...

----------


## locke999

> So, you got sides on CB... even though CB does not interfere with your hormonal chemistry in any way...
> 
> And you also had sides on keratene... even though the blood test made by some forum members showed that it did not really worked reducing DHT...


 He could be a hypochondriac but I think you shouldn't act as if you know for a fact CB is 100% safe. Even finasteride was thought to be safe but now we know its not.

----------


## Cob984

I am just very androgen sensitive? How the hell does RU give you sides? it also doesnt interefere with your hormones either in theory, obviously there is systemic absorption, please dont talk trash,

And RU gave me less sides than cb did, much less,
Maybe this is the wrong vehicle who knows,

----------


## lothar99

1) Keratene gave me awful sides, though they didn't feel bad in exactly the same as other things I have taken that lowered DHT.

2) RU definitely goes systemic. Pretty much anything you apply topically that manages to reach your hair will also enter your bloodstream. There are an ENORMOUS number of people reporting androgenic sides on RU. There is no way it is all metabolized before reaching androgen receptors in other parts of the body.

3) UN-METABOLIZED CB was present in blood plasma of 40% of trialists after application, although in very, very small portions. If someone was extremely susceptible to sides you could argue this small amount could cause them (less than  10 ng/ml). It was fully undetectable 24-36 hours after application in all trialists. However, that said, I am very sensitive to sides and CB's sides were very tolerable in me compared to other meds. I have not used form 3 CB yet, however.

----------


## Cob984

Lothar what vehicle did you use bro? eth/pg?

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

could very well be the wrong vehicle for cb. we need to figure it out

----------


## lothar99

> Lothar what vehicle did you use bro? eth/pg?


 I tried a bunch of stuff to see what caused the least irritation/most immediate effects. various pg/acetone/glycerol or glycerine or something, I forget/ethanol/water in different combinations. I couldn't buy proper ethanol so I used the 70% with water/acetone/additives.

I want to try the form 3 patent cream vehicle or the liposome vehicle. Also want to try the nano vehicle, but nano isn't out yet.

----------


## The Dark Knight

> I tried a bunch of stuff to see what caused the least irritation/most immediate effects. various pg/acetone/glycerol or glycerine or something, I forget/ethanol/water in different combinations. I couldn't buy proper ethanol so I used the 70% with water/acetone/additives.
> 
> I want to try the form 3 patent cream vehicle or the liposome vehicle. Also want to try the nano vehicle, but nano isn't out yet.


 Do you think that depending on the vehicle used, it can cause CB to not metabolize properly and cause sides?

----------


## lothar99

> Do you think that depending on the vehicle used, it can cause CB to not metabolize properly and cause sides?


 I don't know much about vehicles, but I really doubt that. I mean, a vehicle could cause more or less of the drug to penetrate, and cause it to enter slower or faster. If it pushed it through to blood really fast maybe the body couldn't keep up rate of metabolism or something. Entirely speculation.

----------


## yan

> 3) UN-METABOLIZED CB was present in blood plasma of 40% of trialists after application, although in very, very small portions. If someone was extremely susceptible to sides you could argue this small amount could cause them (less than  10 ng/ml). It was fully undetectable 24-36 hours after application in all trialists. However, that said, I am very sensitive to sides and CB's sides were very tolerable in me compared to other meds. I have not used form 3 CB yet, however.


 This is true but I just studied the hamster study and it says: 

"CB was *ineffective as antiandrogen when subcutaneously administered* to rats up to a daily dose equivalent about to 100 mg/kg. The observed dissociation between the strong topical antriandrogenic activity and the absence of systemic effect could be explained supposing that, after subcutaneous injection, CB-03-01 undergoes a fast hydrolysis, by the liver or other tissues, leading to the inactive cortexolone form" 

However this contradicts the reports from users here. At the moment I have no idea what to do beside waiting for official study results...

----------


## yan

And more: 

"Considering that finasteride and flutamide were reported to induce a significant inhibition of hamsters sexual accessory organs after topical application of low dose of about 0.25 mg/kg, and that bicalutamide displayed similar effects in rat after oral administration of 0.4 mg/kg, our data are very impressive and clearly indicate that the topical administration of CB-03-01 should not have systemic effects, on androgen-sensitive organs and functions, even in case of large percutaneous absorption."

----------


## Cob984

Vehicle has a huge effect,
this i know for a fact, because i can put 50 mg in 1 ml of kb and experience 0 sides,
but its also not really effective for the hair

----------


## sdsurfin

I was using CB from an american lab (it was retardedly expensive), and it ran out in two weeks, but experienced no sides in ethanol/pg.  There's a very slight possibility that it induced slightly more vivid dreams, so if anything i'd be worried about its effect on sleep, but definitely no sexual sides. "a slight tingle in the testicles" and "less frequent erections" are some pretty dubious sides, that could be cause by pretty much anything, and sound pretty hypochodriacal.  also who really gives a **** if your ball is slightly tender, as long as it doesnt develop into something else. I was on fin and it gave me incredibly sore testicles, headaches, weak erections etc. A lot of people on fin have sore balls that go away after a bit. I stopped that shit because it really did make my head hurt whenever i took it, and made me feel generally poisoned, depressed, anxious, all of which went away after stopping.  I really doubt CB gives serious side effects unless you're allergic to it or something, but these sides these users are describing seem like they are all in the head.  any drug, even aspirin, is going to change things up in your body slightly.  ask anyone over 25, and they'll tell you they get erections less frequently.  The stress of hair loss alone can make your libido garbage.  I would not be discouraged from trying CB, even in the two weeks i used it the itch went away completely, so at least as an anti inflammatory it seems to be useful.  my hair loss isnt too bad yet and hard to gauge, so i'd be interested to know if it works wonders for people with rapid and very obvious loss.

----------


## Cob984

I just used some cb in ethanol/water vehicle with only half the dosage
same ****ing sides again, my sides arent much libido related, its this puffiness that rapidly appears, its as if my stomach bloats up instantaneously, my body shape just becomes really weird, dont know how to explain it

I get none of these sides using KB, this is really bemusing, i think the kb just destroys the cb molecule or what i dont know

----------


## sdsurfin

that sounds like maybe some kind of allergy. also, pretty sure cosmo specified that CB should be in a non-aqueous vehicle.  Maybe it's the ethanol that your body doesn't like.  A lot of people get puffy on rogaine too.  Plus who knows what the chinese are really selling you.

----------


## pat

> I was using CB from an american lab (it was retardedly expensive), and it ran out in two weeks, but experienced no sides in ethanol/pg.  There's a very slight possibility that it induced slightly more vivid dreams, so if anything i'd be worried about its effect on sleep, but definitely no sexual sides. "a slight tingle in the testicles" and "less frequent erections" are some pretty dubious sides, that could be cause by pretty much anything, and sound pretty hypochodriacal.  also who really gives a **** if your ball is slightly tender, as long as it doesnt develop into something else. I was on fin and it gave me incredibly sore testicles, headaches, weak erections etc. A lot of people on fin have sore balls that go away after a bit. I stopped that shit because it really did make my head hurt whenever i took it, and made me feel generally poisoned, depressed, anxious, all of which went away after stopping.  I really doubt CB gives serious side effects unless you're allergic to it or something, but these sides these users are describing seem like they are all in the head.  any drug, even aspirin, is going to change things up in your body slightly.  ask anyone over 25, and they'll tell you they get erections less frequently.  The stress of hair loss alone can make your libido garbage.  I would not be discouraged from trying CB, even in the two weeks i used it the itch went away completely, so at least as an anti inflammatory it seems to be useful.  my hair loss isnt too bad yet and hard to gauge, so i'd be interested to know if it works wonders for people with rapid and very obvious loss.


 which lab?

----------


## lothar99

> that sounds like maybe some kind of allergy. also, pretty sure cosmo specified that CB should be in a non-aqueous vehicle.  Maybe it's the ethanol that your body doesn't like.  A lot of people get puffy on rogaine too.  Plus who knows what the chinese are really selling you.


 Actually the cream in the patent calls for 47.5% water.

[0070] Prepare a fluid cream containing 2% cetylic alcohol, 16% glyceryl monostearate, 10% vaseline oil, 13% propylene glycol, 10% polyethylenglycol with low polymerization 1.5% polysorbate 80 and 47.5% purified water. Add 1 g of cortexolone 17α-propionate of crystalline form III to 100 g of this cream and subject the mixture to homogenisation by means of a turbine agitator until you obtain homogeneity. You obtain a cream containing a fraction of an active ingredient dissolved in the formulation vehicle and a non-dissolved fraction of an active ingredient, present as a crystal of crystalline form III. This preparation is suitable for use as a formulation vehicle for skin penetration tests on Franz cells, where a coefficient of penetration in the range of 0.04 to 0.03 cm/h is observed on the preparation. 

This is not the same cream that was relatively ineffective with CB before.

----------


## lilpauly

> Actually the cream in the patent calls for 47.5% water.
> 
> [0070] Prepare a fluid cream containing 2% cetylic alcohol, 16% glyceryl monostearate, 10% vaseline oil, 13% propylene glycol, 10% polyethylenglycol with low polymerization 1.5% polysorbate 80 and 47.5% purified water. Add 1 g of cortexolone 17α-propionate of crystalline form III to 100 g of this cream and subject the mixture to homogenisation by means of a turbine agitator until you obtain homogeneity. You obtain a cream containing a fraction of an active ingredient dissolved in the formulation vehicle and a non-dissolved fraction of an active ingredient, present as a crystal of crystalline form III. This preparation is suitable for use as a formulation vehicle for skin penetration tests on Franz cells, where a coefficient of penetration in the range of 0.04 to 0.03 cm/h is observed on the preparation.
> 
> This is not the same cream that was relatively ineffective with CB before.


 I'm thinking of changing the mineral with coconut oil. This cream is very very very cheap to make

----------


## pat

> I'm thinking of changing the mineral with coconut oil. This cream is very very very cheap to make


 I thought the cream was best for acne, not hair....

I would be more hopeful for the CB Nano Solution which we need ASAP!!!

----------


## lilpauly

> I thought the cream was best for acne, not hair....
> 
> I would be more hopeful for the CB Nano Solution which we need ASAP!!!


 Yes man nano would be amazing

----------


## pat

> Yes man nano would be amazing


 please keep us updated on that

----------


## lothar99

> I thought the cream was best for acne, not hair....
> 
> I would be more hopeful for the CB Nano Solution which we need ASAP!!!


 
You're referring to a different cream from the patent that was widely used before. Form 3 cream is a "fluid cream" with a different formulation. Hasn't been used before up until very recently, unless people mixed it up themselves, as far as I know. Only heard results from one person on it so far but so far very good.

----------


## lilpauly

> You're referring to a different cream from the patent that was widely used before. Form 3 cream is a "fluid cream" with a different formulation. Hasn't been used before up until very recently, unless people mixed it up themselves, as far as I know. Only heard results from one person on it so far but so far very good.


 ^ correct but the ingredients are the same . mineral oil is not very good for the hair. im going to replace it with coconut oil.

----------


## HairBane

How exactly would CB be administered by iontophoresis to the scalp? I can't wrap my head around the logistics of that.

Also, has anyone had any success maintaining with JUST CB on any of the forums? Which vehicle did they use?

----------


## DanWS

*adam k* how are things going with your research?

----------


## win200

Damn--went on vacation, forgot my CB at home.  Anyone have an idea of how greatly I'll be impacted by missing six days of CB application?  Still on fin and minoxidil, so I doubt it'll make too much of a difference.

----------


## yan

> Damn--went on vacation, forgot my CB at home.  Anyone have an idea of how greatly I'll be impacted by missing six days of CB application?  Still on fin and minoxidil, so I doubt it'll make too much of a difference.


 If CB gave you additional regrowth, it could have some minor impact, if not, expect nothing to happen, so don`t worry...  :Wink:

----------


## Atum

Any of you guys know when Kane's got a pre-mixed solution of CB?

----------


## Borealis

So excited for this but every day that goes on my hair just gets thinner and thinner. My hairline has stayed the same for a while now but my hair is just getting thinner. Too scared to try Finasteride, like a lot of people on the Cutting Edge forum but every day that goes by I'm wavering more and more. 

Any news on a successful vehicle? And when we can expect to see it sold premixed?

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> So excited for this but every day that goes on my hair just gets thinner and thinner. My hairline has stayed the same for a while now but my hair is just getting thinner. Too scared to try Finasteride, like a lot of people on the Cutting Edge forum but every day that goes by I'm wavering more and more. 
> 
> Any news on a successful vehicle? And when we can expect to see it sold premixed?


 this! damn we need to figure this out asap

----------


## win200

> If CB gave you additional regrowth, it could have some minor impact, if not, expect nothing to happen, so don`t worry...


 Thanks!  I'd only been on it for a months, and it was too early to see much of a difference.  I'm not really worried about it, but mildly annoyed that I forgot.  Not easy to travel with this regimen.

----------


## burtandernie

If CB was premixed in some kind of good vehicle maybe they could do some kind of small voluntary study showing it works. After the real company shows some more real studies many phase 2 results I might try it. I need more real studies showing CB is safe though before I am using anything whether experimental or not.
CB is easily far and away the most close and exciting thing coming. For all the hype and talk nothing comes yet to the results of androgens and CB might be the best and safest.

----------


## DesperateOne

> *adam k* how are things going with your research?


 You're joking right, you actually thought some kid would find the correct vehicle in his basement?

The only chance we have at a right vehicle is when Kane gives it to us, he actually has real chemists and the equipment to do it.

----------


## lilpauly

> You're joking right, you actually thought some kid would find the correct vehicle in his basement?
> 
> The only chance we have at a right vehicle is when Kane gives it to us, he actually has real chemists and the equipment to do it.


 Kane is working on a nano cb. If its stable and doesn't harm the form we it would be for sale

----------


## HairBane

> Kane is working on a nano cb. If its stable and doesn't harm the form we it would be for sale


 What is 'nano CB' and what advantage does it have over other vehicles?

----------


## Kalio

Whats the difference between Kane's CB and the CB Cosmo is developing then? I noticed Kane's CB in its pure form is quite expensive, will Cosmo bring it to market in a more affordable price range perhaps?

----------


## StayThick

> You're joking right, you actually thought some kid would find the correct vehicle in his basement?
> 
> The only chance we have at a right vehicle is when Kane gives it to us, he actually has real chemists and the equipment to do it.


 Adam K is a nobody. Tired of seeing that dudes name thrown around just because he says he is studying chemistry. GTFO of here.

This dude knows as much about "proper vehicles" as people on this forum know about finding a cure. Clueless!

----------


## hellouser

> Adam K is a nobody. Tired of seeing that dudes name thrown around just because he says he is studying chemistry. GTFO of here.
> 
> This dude knows as much about "proper vehicles" as people on this forum know about finding a cure. Clueless!


 Adam K is not Kane....


...FYI

----------


## StayThick

> Adam K is not Kane....
> 
> 
> ...FYI


 Hellouser I know this bud. I should have quoted the individual DesperateOne was directing that quote too. Adam guy frustrates me.

I'm hoping Kane makes a premixed CB...might give it a whirl. Hellouser: you still on Kanes CB?

----------


## lilpauly

> What is 'nano CB' and what advantage does it have over other vehicles?


 What is a nano solution?

   encapsulated  solution carrying cb  past the epidermal layer.

----------


## lilpauly

a chemist is going to   encapsulate the cb in nano

----------


## StayThick

> a chemist is going to   encapsulate the cb in nano


 Keep us in the loop lilPauly on this. I'd be very interested in purchasing this when released.

----------


## lilpauly

> Keep us in the loop lilPauly on this. I'd be very interested in purchasing this when released.


 ^ we should have a trial , maybe kan e will give us a discount , and send samples to people

----------


## StayThick

> ^ we should have a trial , maybe kan e will give us a discount , and send samples to people


 I'd be willing to try at this point...keep me posted.

----------


## HairBane

> ^ we should have a trial , maybe kan e will give us a discount , and send samples to people


 yeah but you'd have to get off the other 100 things in your regimen to remove the variables lol

----------


## lilpauly

> yeah but you'd have to get off the other 100 things in your regimen to remove the variables lol


 We are going to have trials from this forum

----------


## The Dark Knight

Man, I've been avoiding this forum hoping something viable would finally come up for CB, but still nothing  :Frown: I'm running out of time and so are so many other people, this is so f***ing depressing...  :Frown:

----------


## HairBane

> Man, I've been avoiding this forum hoping something viable would finally come up for CB, but still nothing I'm running out of time and so are so many other people, this is so f***ing depressing...


 ...what? There's loads of stuff going on with CB soon. Acne trials, alopecia trials, Kane's nano solution, a bunch of people trying different vehicles and waiting for the results, etc. etc. Chill brah

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> ...what? There's loads of stuff going on with CB soon. Acne trials, alopecia trials, Kane's nano solution, a bunch of people trying different vehicles and waiting for the results, etc. etc. Chill brah


 this

----------


## Cob984

Dude cb in eth/pg works, it immediately works for my hair much like RU does
but gives me the same sides tho,
your body might react different and get no sides like most people on it

----------


## clandestine

> Dude cb in eth/pg works, it immediately works for my hair much like RU does
> but gives me the same sides tho,
> your body might react different and get no sides like most people on it


 Con; CB shouldn't be giving you any side effects.

Where did you purchase from? What % were you using and how frequently were you applying?

----------


## hellouser

> Con; CB shouldn't be giving you any side effects.
> 
> Where did you purchase from? What % were you using and how frequently were you applying?


 Perhaps its the Ethanol/PG thats giving him sides?

----------


## lilpauly

Guys nano is going to be the most effective vehicle

----------


## HairBane

> Guys nano is going to be the most effective vehicle


 Oh, that's a relief. Sorted guys. /thread

----------


## burtandernie

I find it funny people reply CB has no sides like its some kind of fact. How exactly was it proven CB has no sides? Please tell me your not talking about that preliminary small study they did where they said it appeared like it was turned into a harmless compound once it interacted with blood.
If they knew it was safe they would not spend 3 more years doing more studies on it. No one has any idea what it does. A small pre clinical study doesnt prove anything it was simply an educated guess nothing more. Upon further study it could turn out to do anything. Maybe larger studies show some men still get sides I mean who knows. You guys say it like its some proven fact etched in a stone tablet.

----------


## lilpauly

> I find it funny people reply CB has no sides like its some kind of fact. How exactly was it proven CB has no sides? Please tell me your not talking about that preliminary small study they did where they said it appeared like it was turned into a harmless compound once it interacted with blood.
> If they knew it was safe they would not spend 3 more years doing more studies on it. No one has any idea what it does. A small pre clinical study doesnt prove anything it was simply an educated guess nothing more. Upon further study it could turn out to do anything. Maybe larger studies show some men still get sides I mean who knows. You guys say it like its some proven fact etched in a stone tablet.


 Quite of few people have had sides to cb over the last 2 years . In my eyes it's safer then fin and ru though. The profile is great

----------


## HairBane

The fact is this: no one really knows the side effect profile of CB yet, or whether it's safe, or even effective. All you'll get on here is speculation and anecdotal evidence from people who've tried it (whilst on a load of other treatments most likely). 

If you're concerned at all, and want hard evidence of efficacy and safety, wait for the trials.

----------


## The Dark Knight

> ...what? There's loads of stuff going on with CB soon. Acne trials, alopecia trials, Kane's nano solution, a bunch of people trying different vehicles and waiting for the results, etc. etc. Chill brah


 Yeah, you're right, its just the waiting game I guess, but things are looking on the up, just hope CB really is side free once its done

----------


## hellouser

For those of us who are concerned about CB-03-01 and its potential for skin atrophy, here's an interesting article on the potential of corticosteroids creating skin atrophy:

http://www.nationaleczema.org/eczema...orticosteroids

The article mentions 7 classes of potency in regards to corticosteroids. CB-03-01 derives from 11-deoxycortisone. Does anyone know which class CB would potentially fall under? I remember seeing someone mentioned that CB-03-01 should be weaker than the weakest corticosteroid.

I wish Adam K was still around to answer this!

----------


## yan

> For those of us who are concerned about CB-03-01 and its potential for skin atrophy, here's an interesting article on the potential of corticosteroids creating skin atrophy:
> 
> http://www.nationaleczema.org/eczema...orticosteroids
> 
> The article mentions 7 classes of potency in regards to corticosteroids. CB-03-01 derives from 11-deoxycortisone. Does anyone know which class CB would potentially fall under? I remember seeing someone mentioned that CB-03-01 should be weaker than the weakest corticosteroid.
> 
> I wish Adam K was still around to answer this!


 Cortodoxone (also known as cortexolone or 11-deoxycortiso)
"Cortodoxone functions as a glucocorticoid, though is less potent than cortisol."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortodoxone 

As we know, cortisol (hydrocortisone) is the least potent form. So yes, cb should be weaker than the weakest corticosteroid.

----------


## vanityhair

> . . .I wish Adam K was still around to answer this!


 Hellouser, how are you getting on?

----------


## hellouser

> Cortodoxone (also known as cortexolone or 11-deoxycortiso)
> "Cortodoxone functions as a glucocorticoid, though is less potent than cortisol."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortodoxone 
> 
> As we know, cortisol (hydrocortisone) is the least potent form. So yes, cb should be weaker than the weakest corticosteroid.


 Thanks Yan!

That should put some/most people at ease with the use of CB. At our doses, 10-50mg it should be rather fine.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> Thanks Yan!
> 
> That should put some/most people at ease with the use of CB. At our doses, 10-50mg it should be rather fine.


 hellouser you seeing any results with cb? how is it for the mpb itch?

----------


## hellouser

> hellouser you seeing any results with cb? how is it for the mpb itch?


 My itch is frequent now. I'm scratching often, but also on Minox, Dermarolling and RU. So... the itch could be for any number of reasons.

Shedding is down.... way, way down. Regrowth and density? I think its increased, but not drastically.

----------


## Dan26

ive used cortico's and they can cause thin skinning, but you really have to be excessive with them and use potent ones

----------


## StayThick

> My itch is frequent now. I'm scratching often, but also on Minox, Dermarolling and RU. So... the itch could be for any number of reasons.
> 
> Shedding is down.... way, way down. Regrowth and density? I think its increased, but not drastically.


 Hellouser are you still using Kane's CB in conjunction with everything above?

----------


## Cob984

I got desperate and went to my dermatologist, and have been on propecia for last 1 week
Eating 0.25 - 0.33mg a day at the moment, lets see how it goes, so far all good touch wood

----------


## lilpauly

Kane should nano availble very soon , I sent him a email tonight

----------


## cp9

They said it's currently in stability testing and will only sell if it passes. Fingers crossed!

----------


## StayThick

> They said it's currently in stability testing and will only sell if it passes. Fingers crossed!


 I'll be all over this. Rather try this then jump back on  Propecia. Never again.

----------


## lilpauly

Also with nanosomes u can use 20 less the active ingredient. I will post a few studies

----------


## Sogeking

Wait wouldn't nano CB actually have more sides? Since more of cb will get into the bloodstream? This might not be good, to get something that will bind DHT or testosterone into the bloodstream...

----------


## lilpauly

> Wait wouldn't nano CB actually have more sides? Since more of cb will get into the bloodstream? This might not be good, to get something that will bind DHT or testosterone into the bloodstream...


 I will post studies showing the opposite

----------


## lilpauly

I'm on my phone right now but I posted a liposome study using duterside and it was safe

----------


## lilpauly

In fact there is like 20 studies using liposomes and nanosomes and they produced better results and no sides

----------


## Cob984

Nano cb sounds retarded to me, isnt the whole point of nano advanced penetration which basically will increase the chance of systemic sides of topical AAs?
Makes no sense to me,
anyway i hope i am wrong and this is the answer

----------


## lilpauly

> Nano cb sounds retarded to me, isnt the whole point of nano advanced penetration which basically will increase the chance of systemic sides of topical AAs?
> Makes no sense to me,
> anyway i hope i am wrong and this is the answer


 it time-release the encapulated ingredients to  the targeted areas , u can use 20 times less of the active ingredient as well . here is a study of dut in a liposome vehicle http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21513483/

"Dutasteride loaded liposomal system were developed for topical application in order to avoid the side effects associated with the oral administration of the drug"

----------


## lilpauly

i have yet to see a vehicle better then nanosomes. there is risk to using nay experimental lets make that very clear. u need a prescription to use promox for a reason. aLSO  please take a look at the first person who ever used ru said 


"I use a liposome base because the literature supports it and because it lessens the need for me to use the full amount cited in the stumptailed macaque studies. Admittedly the studies done utilized a 5% hydro-alcoholic solution were promising and showed that this type of vehicle worked. I just happened to be convinced that more of the drug can be delivered to the dermis level of the skin with a liposome and by hydrating the scalp."

----------


## lilpauly

here is a study of myristate rum in a liposome
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Acne and androgenetic alopecia are linked to androgen effects and therefore should improve following topical application of antiandrogens. We present a new antiandrogen prodrug, RU 58841-myristate (RUM) for topical therapy. Almost devoid of affinity to the androgen receptor, as derived from investigations in the mouse fibroblast cell line 29 +/GR +, RUM is rapidly metabolised to the potent antiandrogen RU 58841 by cultured human foreskin fibroblasts and keratinocytes, male occipital scalp skin dermal papilla cells, and by cells of the sebaceous gland cell line SZ95. In order to improve a specific targeting of the hair follicle, RUM was loaded on solid lipid nanoparticles (SLN), which are already known to support dermal targeting effects. Physically stable RUM loaded SLN were produced by hot homogenization. Penetration/permeation studies carried out using the Franz diffusion cell proved only negligible permeation of reconstructed epidermis and excised porcine skin within 6 h, implying a more topical action of the drug. Targeting to the hair follicle using SLN was visualised by fluorescence microscopy, following the application of Nile Red labelled SLN to human scalp skin. Transmission electron microscopy (TEM) allowed to detect intact silver labelled SLN in porcine hair follicles of preparations applied to the skin for 24 h. RUM loaded SLN should be considered for topical antiandrogen therapy of acne and androgenetic alopecia

----------


## Hairismylife

When here is full of desparate emotion these days, Lilpauly still posting useful info to us.  Yes, we still have options. CB,dermarolloing+minox.  Why in these days so many ppl become so pessimistic? All forgot CB & dermarolling? Cheers up!

----------


## simba

I got some good news and some bad news.

I emailed anageninc  this :

*Hi, will you be offering premixed cb-03-01 in a nano solution anytime soon?*

and in reply i got this

*Dear friend,

Thanks for your contact!

we'll be releasing specialized CB Gel for good penetration, as for now, Cb is not compatible with NAno technique pls note.

If you have any questions left, pls contact with us directly!
Warm regards,

Anagen inc*

It seems nano doesnt work with cb, but if the gel works then who cares.

----------


## KUP

Oh so no-go on the nano-CB but instead they are making a gel that will also be premixed, right? 
So for us it is basically a case of same but different i supposed.

----------


## burtandernie

After I see some more evidence from the actual CB trials showing its safe I might try this premixed CB depending on price since actual CB is years away still. I think CB is the big potential cure for MPB since if it can prevent mpb before it starts then its essentially a form of a cure. Its just a question of is it strong enough?
All the current stuff like like fin or dut change other hormones along with just DHT and the reason they might stop working could be based on receptors in hair which CB targets. Could be bigger then its currently thought.

----------


## lilpauly

> Oh so no-go on the nano-CB but instead they are making a gel that will also be premixed, right? 
> So for us it is basically a case of same but different i supposed.


 guys im real sorry i should have never mentioned nano cb or ru without having it produced first. both compounds were not possible, myristate rum was created because it had lipid tale and could be put in a nanosome.

----------


## HairBane

> guys im real sorry i should have never mentioned nano cb or ru without having it produced first. both compounds were not possible, myristate rum was created because it had lipid tale and could be put in a nanosome.


 no worries pauly, onwards and upwards

----------


## inbrugge

The CB gel is something I would be interested in if it is stable, effective, and doesn't enter the system. Who are Anagen Inc? Are they trustable? First time I'm hearing of them, albeit I'm learning about these experimental chems very recently.

Also, has anyone in the US ordered from these sites (Iron Dragon, Kane, MBPSolutions, etc). I was thinking about buying some powders and vehicles but I got a bit paranoid. I mean you gotta admit it wouldn't look all that good to someone who doesn't know what this stuff is, especially some customs inspector, etc.

----------


## lilpauly

> The CB gel is something I would be interested in if it is stable, effective, and doesn't enter the system. Who are Anagen Inc? Are they trustable? First time I'm hearing of them, albeit I'm learning about these experimental chems very recently.
> 
> Also, has anyone in the US ordered from these sites (Iron Dragon, Kane, MBPSolutions, etc). I was thinking about buying some powders and vehicles but I got a bit paranoid. I mean you gotta admit it wouldn't look all that good to someone who doesn't know what this stuff is, especially some customs inspector, etc.


 Hi man anageninc is Kane. It's his Europe office

----------


## simba

> guys im real sorry i should have never mentioned nano cb or ru without having it produced first. both compounds were not possible, myristate rum was created because it had lipid tale and could be put in a nanosome.


 Nanos not the goal, good penetration is the goal, lets just hope that this gel works well.

----------


## locke999

I have a feeling since nanogen didn't work, they are just coming out with the gel to not disappoint. I feel like it's just marketing.

----------


## simba

> I have a feeling since nanogen didn't work, they are just coming out with the gel to not disappoint. I feel like it's just marketing.


 Thats a possibilty, id like to know what the gel is made of and why they think itll work. Also why they didnt just use the same solution they used for RU.

----------


## Cob984

CB gives me worse weight sides than fin wtf,
i have been on fin for 2 weeks, had to drop it today cause of brain fog/serious fatigue but the weight gain was rather limited, cb on the other hand just bloats the **** out of me its insane, but it also has no other sides for me, no libido/no brain fog,
**** my body, time to accept baldness, im screwed

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> CB gives me worse weight sides than fin wtf,
> i have been on fin for 2 weeks, had to drop it today cause of brain fog/serious fatigue but the weight gain was rather limited, cb on the other hand just bloats the **** out of me its insane, but it also has no other sides for me, no libido/no brain fog,
> **** my body, time to accept baldness, im screwed


  Ive noticed some fatigue in the morning on topical fin

----------


## inbrugge

> Hi man anageninc is Kane. It's his Europe office


 Thanks a lot man. 

Would you happen to know about Kane selling to US. Would there be any customs issue?

Also, what exactly is KB? I know it's a vehicle, but I can't use anything with ethanol.

----------


## Dan26

> Thanks a lot man. 
> 
> Would you happen to know about Kane selling to US. Would there be any customs issue?
> 
> Also, what exactly is KB? I know it's a vehicle, but I can't use anything with ethanol.


 US customs should be fine bro its certain european coutnries like gernamny sweden etc that give big problems

KB has ethanol in it man..its mostly ethanol, some water, and some other ingrediants that form protective film

try glycerine/pg perhaps?

----------


## Dan26

inbrugge if u are interested in expirmentals u should probably join one of the private forums there is a lot of discussion about them on there

----------


## lilpauly

> Thanks a lot man. 
> 
> Would you happen to know about Kane selling to US. Would there be any customs issue?
> 
> Also, what exactly is KB? I know it's a vehicle, but I can't use anything with ethanol.


 If customs destroys it he ships . 99% of USA don't have custom problems

----------


## lilpauly

> Thanks a lot man. 
> 
> Would you happen to know about Kane selling to US. Would there be any customs issue?
> 
> Also, what exactly is KB? I know it's a vehicle, but I can't use anything with ethanol.


 Kb somution has ethanol in it . El dut has used glycerine in the past and it works . Usually all ru vehicles have ethanol in it

----------


## Dan26

Please note lilpauly

pls

----------


## lilpauly

People who have used olyel alcohol seem to hate it

----------


## simba

Follow up email with Kane

*Hi, thanks for your reply, I have a couple of questions.

How long do you think itll be before you release CB Gel?
Why did you go with a gel and not just use the same solution that you
did with RU?

Thanks a lot
*

The Reply

*
Dear friend,

As for cb, its different chemical, standard vehicles such as for RU are possible, however, some customers prefer non alcohol based gel.

We think as within 2 months, its possible, pls note.



Warm regards,

Anagen inc*

----------


## Atum

I'm willing to try the gel.

----------


## simba

Could someone do us all a favour and email kane asking why he think the gel would be a good vehicle? It keeps bouncing back for me.

Thanks in advance

----------


## FearTheLoss

Does anyone know if there is going to be a vehicle difference between the acne and hair treatment for CB? also will there be a major dosage difference? I haven't been following CB a lot, but it will be out in 2015 for acne so I'm curious if we will just be able to use that on our hair..

----------


## lilpauly

> Does anyone know if there is going to be a vehicle difference between the acne and hair treatment for CB? also will there be a major dosage difference? I haven't been following CB a lot, but it will be out in 2015 for acne so I'm curious if we will just be able to use that on our hair..


 Yes man it will 100% be different the Cosmo cream for acne has mineral in it

----------


## locke999

lilpauly do you work for kane or something, why do you know so much.

Also, my RU shipment from anagen just arrived, its the liquid form. Should I be applying this one or twice a day?

----------


## lilpauly

> lilpauly do you work for kane or something, why do you know so much.
> 
> Also, my RU shipment from anagen just arrived, its the liquid form. Should I be applying this one or twice a day?


 No I don'twork  for Kane man I ordered most my stuff from group buys in which I regret. I spent nearly 5 k on pioneer group buys , 5 k from stopmpb group buys . I just trust Kane .

----------


## lilpauly

Why do I know so much ? Cuz I have spent 20k on hairloss products man . He used to tell me what he was going to add or what he was thinking about producing not no more . He got many emails regarding nano cb. As we know nano cb he couldn't make .

----------


## Dan26

> I have spent 20k on hairloss products .


 wow man Kane must pay you this big bucks!

 :Wink:

----------


## burtandernie

So there is not going to be a nano CB? I am hyped for CB I think its going to be a potential MPB killer. A safe topical that brings androgens to castration like levels means you basically never go bald if you take it before MPB happens. That is what we need more then anything.

----------


## lilpauly

> So there is not going to be a nano CB? I am hyped for CB I think its going to be a potential MPB killer. A safe topical that brings androgens to castration like levels means you basically never go bald if you take it before MPB happens. That is what we need more then anything.


 No man I very much wrong postin g Kane was testing  it in nano. . When it failed I felt awful. He got many emails for nano cb and in to blame for

----------


## cichlidfort

> Follow up email with Kane
> 
> *Hi, thanks for your reply, I have a couple of questions.
> 
> How long do you think itll be before you release CB Gel?
> Why did you go with a gel and not just use the same solution that you
> did with RU?
> 
> Thanks a lot
> ...


 So in a couple months time (assuming this vehicle is successful) we could have a major break through by slowing down hair loss significantly? And would it still be 4 times more effective than Fin still?

----------


## locke999

> Why do I know so much ? Cuz I have spent 20k on hairloss products man . He used to tell me what he was going to add or what he was thinking about producing not no more . He got many emails regarding nano cb. As we know nano cb he couldn't make .


 I believe you. Thanks for answering all the questions.




> So in a couple months time (assuming this vehicle is successful) we could have a major break through by slowing down hair loss significantly? And would it still be 4 times more effective than Fin still?


 I don't know, maybe he thoguht nano was really something but since it didn't work he's just coming out with the gel for marketing purpose.

----------


## cichlidfort

> I don't know, maybe he thoguht nano was really something but since it didn't work he's just coming out with the gel for marketing purpose.


 Well his marketing will be very short lived when everyone finds out the gel isn't working. If something works, it'll spread faster than a wild forest fire on these hair loss forums. If it doesn't work, he won't get much business.

----------


## doke

buy the way not been about here for a while who said that lasers do not work they are a great help for many forms of hair loss even the hair max which gave my hair a lot more body to it and some regrowth so for one i will be using my new igrow combined with a topical.
Also iron dragons new cb is 1% i think and its worth at least trying it before going to kane although i have used kane for ru and found the company very reliable its just the fact many of us are a bit lazy and to have a premixed solution is easy to use.
I was thinking of getting some cb from kane and mixing 3grams into 60ml kirkland minoxidil because that maybe a great combo if it mixs well that is but with a good shake i think it will and also shake every time you use.

----------


## Dan26

doke do NOT put CB into kirkland minox....it is a bad vehicle

----------


## lilpauly

> Well his marketing will be very short lived when everyone finds out the gel isn't working. If something works, it'll spread faster than a wild forest fire on these hair loss forums. If it doesn't work, he won't get much business.


 i cannot cannot recommend cb until a vehicle is found.  cb is WAY WAY To expensive. i used cb years ago spent 1500 on it!

----------


## lilpauly

> buy the way not been about here for a while who said that lasers do not work they are a great help for many forms of hair loss even the hair max which gave my hair a lot more body to it and some regrowth so for one i will be using my new igrow combined with a topical.
> Also iron dragons new cb is 1% i think and its worth at least trying it before going to kane although i have used kane for ru and found the company very reliable its just the fact many of us are a bit lazy and to have a premixed solution is easy to use.
> I was thinking of getting some cb from kane and mixing 3grams into 60ml kirkland minoxidil because that maybe a great combo if it mixs well that is but with a good shake i think it will and also shake every time you use.


 since kane doesnt know the vehicle or iron dragon either, matter a fact know one does! . i hightly highyl sugget kane gives the gel out for free! i also know iron dragon used ethanol and thats just an awful vehicle.

----------


## Stevo1

> since kane doesnt know the vehicle or iron dragon either, matter a fact know one does! . i hightly highyl sugget kane gives the gel out for free! i also know iron dragon used ethanol and thats just an awful vehicle.


 FYI...lilpauly is right...bad/harsh alchohols are not good for some people. 

25+ years ago i could use bad/harsh alchohols with no problem, but once my hair miniturized to a certain point I can no longer use these. 

Case in point..I was on of the 1st to use Iron Dragon CB and it literally destroyed my hair after just ONE application...hence why I am waiting for kanes Gel or Cream

----------


## yan

Just some small new information regarding cb for alopecia: 

 Completion of toxicological studies ongoing
 Phase I PK ongoing (treatment completed)
 *Pre IND meeting* with FDA scheduled for *December 18* 

And a small update regarding cb for acne:

 Third cohort completed, fourth cohort recruiting, no major adverse
events to date

As we see, at least 1% cb (for acne) seems to be nearly side-effect-free.

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...Healthcare.pdf

----------


## simba

> People who have used olyel alcohol seem to hate it


 I guess that means you didnt use olyel?

If olyel has as good permeation as the iontophoresis device and also has the same results I could put up with only using it twice a week.

----------


## Hairismylife

lilpauly when will the Kane gel be available???

----------


## lilpauly

> lilpauly when will the Kane gel be available???


 I don't know man Kane doesn't tell me much cause I tell forums. , when cb nano failed Kane got lots of emails regarding nano. I love nano products

----------


## deuce

If cosmo puts out CB on the market for acne will it work for hair loss?  Or will they have to find an effective vehicle or will the vehicle be effective for hair loss because it is effective for acne?

----------


## chimera

> If cosmo puts out CB on the market for acne will it work for hair loss?  Or will they have to find an effective vehicle or will the vehicle be effective for hair loss because it is effective for acne?


 I don't know man... lilpauli keeps saying the acne cream is no good, as it carries minaral oils which supposedly can't go through the hair shaft, but some time ago, a guy in this foum (I forgot who) told me that a guy in the SAGA tried CB on a replica of the acne cream and got awesome results...

----------


## lilpauly

> I don't know man... lilpauli keeps saying the acne cream is no good, as it carries minaral oils which supposedly can't go through the hair shaft, but some time ago, a guy in this foum (I forgot who) told me that a guy in the SAGA tried CB on a replica of the acne cream and got awesome results...


 Gk is the only person who got good results with the Cosmo cream. At least 50 reported no rests

----------


## lothar99

> If cosmo puts out CB on the market for acne will it work for hair loss?  Or will they have to find an effective vehicle or will the vehicle be effective for hair loss because it is effective for acne?


 The "cosmo cream" everyone used a few years ago was made wrong

----------


## lilpauly

Lothar gk got results on the wrong version lol anyways cb right now is not worth it until a vehicle can be found

----------


## chimera

> Gk is the only person who got good results with the Cosmo cream. At least 50 reported no rests


 Ouch, that sucks  :Frown:

----------


## burtandernie

Why cant we just use this if it works and cosmo proved it worked? Im not a chemistry/biology person. So it uses propulsion and moves in electric field transdermally?




> About iontophoresis
> Iontophoresis is a non-invasive method of propelling high concentrations of a
> charged substance, normally a medication or bioactive agent, transdermally by a repulsive electromotive force using a small electrical charge applied to an iontophoretic chamber containing a similarly charged active agent and its vehicle. One or two chambers are filled with a solution containing an active ingredient and its solvent, also called the vehicle. The positively charged chamber, called the anode, will repel a positively charged chemical,
> whereas the negatively charged chamber, called the cathode , will repel a negatively charged chemical into the skin. Iontophoresis is well classified for use in transdermal drug delivery. Unlike transdermal patches, this method relies on ac
> tive transportation within an electric
> field

----------


## Knockin on NW4

Oleyl seems to be an important penetration enhancer for CB. But everyone who has tried 9:1 PG to Oleyl says its way way too harsh, causing instant shedding, plus its super greasy.


Oleyl is Fatty, so it wont mix with ethanol. A couple of peeps are trying oleyl in emu oil for their CB vehicle.  here is some number from a 2010 cosmo study


2010 cosmo study, page 74.

CA in PG 12.3ug/g skin concentration and penetration of undetectable
CA in PG/OL 89.4 ug/g concentration and penetration of 141ng/ml/hr
CB in PG 36 skin conc and penetration of 7
CB in PG/OL 231 skin conc and penetration of 1410

CB in 9:1 PG OLEYL on human skin in vitro

----------


## Difthin

> Lothar gk got results on the wrong version lol anyways cb right now is not worth it until a vehicle can be found


 Might be dumb, Im pretty much a noob in hairlossworld, but couldnt you use some kind of dermaroller with epidural (hollow) needles to get the stuff directly to the area where it needs to be? Im sure some one smarter than me would be able to create such a device. Just a thought.

----------


## lilpauly

> Might be dumb, Im pretty much a noob in hairlossworld, but couldnt you use some kind of dermaroller with epidural (hollow) needles to get the stuff directly to the area where it needs to be? Im sure some one smarter than me would be able to create such a device. Just a thought.


 I think the new israel device would be great .

----------


## lilpauly

2 people reported results from using emu on the Korean forum .  I think drap was only usi g emu . This was September

----------


## Difthin

> I think the new israel device would be great .


 Has injecting growth factors ever been tried or is the chance of the drug becoming systemic just too high?

And if I understand you correctly the Israeli are allready using some sort of hollow needle dermaroller in the piloxil method?

edit: accidentally a word

----------


## simba

> Why cant we just use this if it works and cosmo proved it worked? Im not a chemistry/biology person. So it uses propulsion and moves in electric field transdermally?


 We couldnt figure out what to buy or how to use it, if you have any ideas that would be appreciated.

I also dont understand why no one has tried oleyl with PG but thats just me

----------


## Slaghton

If some people have been able to get harsh sides from cb then my guess is that we need a similar vehicle but in a time based release version.  I'm guessing to much of the cb is getting into the system all at once but if we could slow the absorption down over time it could work.  

That was my first guess when i heard kane or whoever was trying to do some kind of lotion since I have acne lotion that's time released throughout the day and works great for that.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

No one is getting harsh sides from cb. Thats not what I said. PG and oleyl 9:1 is harsh. Pg is an irritant. Both are incredibly greasy as well, making it not suitable for DAILY USE .

----------


## Slaghton

> No one is getting harsh sides from cb. Thats not what I said. PG and oleyl 9:1 is harsh. Pg is an irritant. Both are incredibly greasy as well, making it not suitable for DAILY USE .


 Oh, i misread your statement.  Well, hm.

----------


## lilpauly

btw i got kanes cb and ru third party test results in. im testing inhouse dut next.

----------


## KUP

> btw i got kanes cb and ru third party test results in. im testing inhouse dut next.


 Did you get his test result for CB gel or how should we understand this? 
If that is the case then he must be fairly close to releasing it as long as the test results are decent of course, right?

----------


## lilpauly

> Did you get his test result for CB gel or how should we understand this? 
> If that is the case then he must be fairly close to releasing it as long as the test results are decent of course, right?


 In posting the cb test result tomorrow . It's very pure over 99.9. For the vCosmo gave a presentation the other day hopefully there is something in it regarding cb vehicle  . I told Kane many timed he needs to make a vehicle for cb. I also told him ethanol vehicles suck. I can't use it any more . 70% ethanol is no good for ru and I don't know why he is selling it . Ethanol must be 95% min

----------


## cichlidfort

> In posting the cb test result tomorrow . It's very pure over 99.9. For the vCosmo gave a presentation the other day hopefully there is something in it regarding cb vehicle  . I told Kane many timed he needs to make a vehicle for cb. I also told him ethanol vehicles suck. I can't use it any more . 70% ethanol is no good for ru and I don't know why he is selling it . Ethanol must be 95% min


 Good job man! Keep up the research, you have a lot of followers, like me!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> In posting the cb test result tomorrow . It's very pure over 99.9. For the vCosmo gave a presentation the other day hopefully there is something in it regarding cb vehicle  . I told Kane many timed he needs to make a vehicle for cb. I also told him ethanol vehicles suck. I can't use it any more . 70% ethanol is no good for ru and I don't know why he is selling it . Ethanol must be 95% min


 
Good job lilpauly! keep it up, we need this CB vehicle.

----------


## Hairismylife

> Good job man! Keep up the research, you have a lot of followers, like me!


 +1

----------


## inbrugge

No updates on our breakthrough treatment?

It's kinda funny how we could have a succesful anti-androgen topical (which is theoretically the only thing needed to halt MPB), but we can't because there hasn't been found a correct vehicle.  :Smile:

----------


## KUP

> It's kinda funny how we could have a succesful anti-androgen topical (which is theoretically the only thing needed to halt MPB), but we can't because there hasn't been found a correct vehicle.


 Yea it is sorta frustating, but i assume finding a vehicle can be equally difficult.
Hoping to hear something from Kane soon though!

----------


## Kudu

This may be the wrong place for this, but what is stopping people from using iontophoresis devices for CB? Didn't Cosmo use an iontophoresis machine and get good results?

----------


## HairBane

> This may be the wrong place for this, but what is stopping people from using iontophoresis devices for CB? Didn't Cosmo use an iontophoresis machine and get good results?


 I think they used a Hydroelectrophoresis drug delivery system which costs thousands of dollars. In theory you could buy/bootstrap a system but it would be a lot of effort to set up and use, a daily topical is much more practical.

----------


## burtandernie

Personally I think stuff like topical spiro would work many times more effectively if it used say iontophoresis or a better vehicle. I think a huge part of all the topicals not working is the most common vehicles everyone wants to use just dont work well enough. I think cosmo actually got really good results with other topicals just by using iontophoresis instead which kind of shows the critical importance of it. If such a vehicle even exists.

----------


## Imalmostbald

RU is just beastly for me, at 200mg a day it changed my hair as thick as my juvenile hair was. Took 3-4 months but after that it really went upwards. There is a discount going on at both anageninc and thekaneshop for the ones who are interested. Allot cheaper like 180$ for 10 gram RU.

----------


## KUP

> RU is just beastly for me, at 200mg a day it changed my hair as thick as my juvenile hair was. Took 3-4 months but after that it really went upwards. There is a discount going on at both anageninc and thekaneshop for the ones who are interested. Allot cheaper like 180$ for 10 gram RU.


 I've read that the sides on RU are similar to the sides on Fin. Have you experienced any of this?
Do you buy it premixed or mix it yourself?

----------


## hellouser

> RU is just beastly for me, at 200mg a day it changed my hair as thick as my juvenile hair was. Took 3-4 months but after that it really went upwards. There is a discount going on at both anageninc and thekaneshop for the ones who are interested. Allot cheaper like 180$ for 10 gram RU.


 You took RU at 200mg A DAY?!

----------


## Imalmostbald

Yeah i did , but i tapered down now tho. I just blasted it and will lower now just for maintaining. Had no sides even at 200mg in 3-4 ml minoxidil. Hair got insanely thick. Wish i just had a little bit more regrowth..

----------


## Imalmostbald

> I've read that the sides on RU are similar to the sides on Fin. Have you experienced any of this?
> Do you buy it premixed or mix it yourself?


 I myself did not get any sides.. But indeed most people do report similar sides as finasteride (although a lower % i think).

I mix it myself, its a bit cheaper that way. Besides that i use minoxidil kirkland so i use that as a vehicle for my RU.

----------


## KUP

> I myself did not get any sides.. But indeed most people do report similar sides as finasteride (although a lower &#37; i think).
> 
> I mix it myself, its a bit cheaper that way. Besides that i use minoxidil kirkland so i use that as a vehicle for my RU.


 Interesting, I strongly considered trying RU myself but was disheartened by reports of Fin sides. 
How long had you been using Minoxidil before mixing in RU?
Would it be possible to lure you into posting some before and after pictures (if you have any before)?

----------


## Dan26

> I myself did not get any sides.. But indeed most people do report similar sides as finasteride (although a lower % i think).
> 
> I mix it myself, its a bit cheaper that way. Besides that i use minoxidil kirkland so i use that as a vehicle for my RU.


 DO you do a 5% concentration? And how does it dissolve man? You store it in the freezer? I found RU hard to dissolve in kikrland minox when I froze the powder and used more than 5%

----------


## Amercancer

What did u mix your RU with?

----------


## hellouser

> What did u mix your RU with?


 Here's a complete RU guide:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=12391

----------


## Amercancer

Is it ok to mix it with rogaine?

----------


## hellouser

> Is it ok to mix it with rogaine?


 AFAIK, Rogaine's vehicle is a mix of ethanol and propylene glycol, so essentially the same as RU's. It should be fine to mix the two.

----------


## Amercancer

Is that good enough?

----------


## Amercancer

Ok, thanx a lot

----------


## cookies

I got a question about Cosmo's initial CB results:





Isn't +/- 70 follicles per cm/2 quite high? Isn't that a density that you just start noticing thinning?

----------


## hellouser

> I got a question about Cosmo's initial CB results:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't +/- 70 follicles per cm/2 quite high? Isn't that a density that you just start noticing thinning?


 70 follicles per cm/2 is DENSE. Thats 175 single strands of hair. Most people have about 65-85 follicles per cm/2.

You won't notice thinning until youre at about HALF that, so around 35-40 follicles/cm2.

----------


## cookies

That's strange right? It would have made more sense to test CB's effectiveness by testing it on people who are actually thinning.

----------


## Atum

So.....they got a good vehicle now?

----------


## hellouser

> So.....they got a good vehicle now?


 No, those are still old numbers from the stone age.

Waiting for any of these biotechs or pharmaceuticals is absolute bullshit.

'Yay, lets watch our best remaining years go down the crapper with each day being worse than the one before.'

Yeah, there's something to look forward to. Disgusting.

----------


## locke999

> No, those are still old numbers from the stone age.
> 
> Waiting for any of these biotechs or pharmaceuticals is absolute bullshit.
> 
> 'Yay, lets watch our best remaining years go down the crapper with each day being worse than the one before.'
> 
> Yeah, there's something to look forward to. Disgusting.


 Then do something about it.

What's the point of getting angry and blaming these researchers every day.

----------


## doke

is it worth trying the iron dragon 1% cb or has anyone tried it yet.

----------


## Atum

> No, those are still old numbers from the stone age.
> 
> Waiting for any of these biotechs or pharmaceuticals is absolute bullshit.
> 
> 'Yay, lets watch our best remaining years go down the crapper with each day being worse than the one before.'
> 
> Yeah, there's something to look forward to. Disgusting.


 But they got result, so they got a decent vehicle back than. Or did I completely dropped the ball on this one?

----------


## hellouser

> But they got result, so they got a decent vehicle back than. Or did I completely dropped the ball on this one?


 The vehicle they used was hydro electrophoresis. There's no chance in hell you'd be able to use that method. And if you could, you certainly wouldnt be on this forum.

The vehicle we need is a gel or liquid or paste that penetrates the skin. Nobody knows what it is though because Cosmo Pharmaceuticals was outrageously stupid enough to put more effort on an acne treatment with CB than a hair loss treatment.

----------


## lilpauly

> The vehicle they used was hydro electrophoresis. There's no chance in hell you'd be able to use that method. And if you could, you certainly wouldnt be on this forum.
> 
> The vehicle we need is a gel or liquid or paste that penetrates the skin. Nobody knows what it is though because Cosmo Pharmaceuticals was outrageously stupid enough to put more effort on an acne treatment with CB than a hair loss treatment.


 This!

----------


## simba

> The vehicle they used was hydro electrophoresis. There's no chance in hell you'd be able to use that method. And if you could, you certainly wouldnt be on this forum.
> 
> The vehicle we need is a gel or liquid or paste that penetrates the skin. Nobody knows what it is though because Cosmo Pharmaceuticals was outrageously stupid enough to put more effort on an acne treatment with CB than a hair loss treatment.


 anagenincs working on one which we should have some news on any week now

----------


## doke

The trial with topical flutamide maybe the same as cb as the trials used a gel which worked very well but as it did not come to market none of us could even make it ourselves by the way the old sintov flutamide trials were very interesting and showed it could regrow hair with no side effects.
But i wonder is cb as good as topicle flutamide because many of us on different forums wanted to try it.

----------


## lilpauly

> The trial with topical flutamide maybe the same as cb as the trials used a gel which worked very well but as it did not come to market none of us could even make it ourselves by the way the old sintov flutamide trials were very interesting and showed it could regrow hair with no side effects.
> But i wonder is cb as good as topicle flutamide because many of us on different forums wanted to try it.


 I just wonder what the gel could be .

----------


## doke

hi lily thats the problem i think that sinere tried making the gel which was called flutagel but i think that still was not what sintov used,its the same with Dr  Browns saba gel of retin a and hydrocortisone thats supposed to regrow hair i tried mixing the two myself and ended up with a very sore and itchy flaky scalp like sunburn it may have been because i added azelaic acid as well.
I have had to put some caster oil on my scalp and rub it in and left it overnight and i think its settling down now these experiments or trying to copy companies products does not seem to work for me.
What about iron dragons cb 03 01 lotion at 1% any thoughts on that could it work with rogaine foam its worth a try.

----------


## randomman111

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Absorption-D.../dp/0824706269

I believe that our vehicle woes are contained within this book.

----------


## burtandernie

So is CB 03 01 out yet? Its 2014 now im ready to save my hair without systemic hormone altering chemicals.
Maybe our politicians can help the FDA approve things faster so say a pretty safe chemical profile for a topical like this after getting approved for acne can quickly get approved for MPB. Why are the timelines and costs for FDA approval so ridiculous? Maybe no one told them people dont live forever.

----------


## lilpauly

> So is CB 03 01 out yet? Its 2014 now im ready to save my hair without systemic hormone altering chemicals


 Next month Cosmo releases info

----------


## yan

Even faster. At the end of this month they are going to release a lot of new info...

----------


## BDDFreak

> Next month Cosmo releases info


 Do you know what the info regards to by any chance?

----------


## doke

yes info but still a long way from comming to the market as we heard this many years ago about flutamide gel and ru and many other products that never came to the market i do hope it works and is on sale soon but im not holding my breath yet.
I see that mpb has kb solution on sale again but no ru as yet.

----------


## yan

> Do you know what the info regards to by any chance?


 Most probably info regarding alopecia phase 1 results (therefore a lot new info about its safety) & alopecia phase 2 info, acne phase 2 results, new updated timeline and much more...

----------


## Cob984

> 2 people reported results from using emu on the Korean forum .  I think drap was only usi g emu . This was September


 lil pauly i need your help, the eth/pg vehicle works for me but gives me shit sides, i just cant put up with it,

can you run me through the other vehicles and how to make it:
The cream i keep hearing about? what is this?

Also emu oil, do dissolve cb in emu oil?

thanks

----------


## lilpauly

> lil pauly i need your help, the eth/pg vehicle works for me but gives me shit sides, i just cant put up with it,
> 
> can you run me through the other vehicles and how to make it:
> The cream i keep hearing about? what is this?
> 
> Also emu oil, do dissolve cb in emu oil?
> 
> thanks


 Friend can u wait 1 month Cosmo will be releasing info. Yes Man U could dissolve cb in a little pg first then emu

----------


## burtandernie

Cosmo is not going to tell anyone the exact vehicle or anything specific until its released. Doesnt make sense to give that info out.

----------


## BDDFreak

> Cosmo is not going to tell anyone the exact vehicle or anything specific until its released. Doesnt make sense to give that info out.


 Exactly. Why would they ? It seems counter productive to their interest in making a profit.

----------


## Wiffle

So, is there any progress towards consensus on the appropriate vehicle for CB?

----------


## hellouser

> So, is there any progress towards consensus on the appropriate vehicle for CB?


 Not yet unfortunately.

----------


## baldybald

Need to close this useless thread, dermarolling thing too !

----------


## tommy e

> Need to close this useless thread, dermarolling thing too !


 pretty much the only decent discussion about "cutting edge /future tratments" in the forum, why close it?

----------


## hellouser

> pretty much the only decent discussion about "cutting edge /future tratments" in the forum, why close it?


 Ignore him, its obviously an attempt to stir controversy.

----------


## baldybald

Am sure that everyone knows that this will end up getting nothing, no cure no treatments. If you guys want it for making conversation and talk like girls that is something different. By the way MR hellouser is dermarolling doing anything to bald guys? The answer is no, am watching the results  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

> Am sure that everyone knows that this will end up getting nothing, no cure no treatments. If you guys want it for making conversation and talk like girls that is something different. By the way MR hellouser is dermarolling doing anything to bald guys? The answer is no, am watching the results


 It's unfortunate that you have to give people the impression that I've somehow misled others about any claims you think i've made about dermarolling. I proposed a community trial with POTENTIAL scientific backing. Nobody made any guarantees.

----------


## baldybald

No I tried to tell people it will not work, but you attacked me badly and you said am working for Merck or follica, you tried to make fun that is all

----------


## StayThick

The bottom line is this: Depending on your DNA and the speed/progression of your balding, there is nothing currently available or close to being available that will prevent the inevitable...you will be BALD. 

How fast you get there will depend on person to person on this damn forum, but the bottom line is you will eventually be bald or show some sort of hair loss.

The treatments we have available are embarassing and I think it's disgusting I have to or used too mind you, mix topicals and chemicals in my house to apply on my damn head. That and apply a possible sketchy growth factor from god knows where. It's embarrassing and I could have caused more harm then good to my health.

Checking this forum everyday isn't helping me either. My hairloss is slow and minox is the only thing I got that has kept me steady and that doesn't say much. Especially, since we are now in 2014 and I'm using the best treatment now that was available in the damn 80's. It's disgusting.

Wish you the best everyone. I'm done with this forum. Time to move on with my life and with the hair I got. My rant is done.

Peace guys.

----------


## Wiffle

Well, these rants about the (apparent) "utter uselessness" of everything current, anger at pharmas for not coming up with something better, the litanies of hopelessness....

....crop up with fairly regular frequency. 

 I find them really odd because I don't really see how they help.  

Methinks such peeps secretly want to be re-assured.  But there are no assurances though; and no guarantees; we have to keep looking and trying.  

My only advice to such a person is to keep things in perspective; at least you aren't (presumably) dying of cancer or a quadriplegic, or any number of ailments that make hairless look like something almost welcome.

----------


## doke

here we go again it was in the 1990s that ru58841 was going through trials and after all this time many of these so called hair loss drugs and naturals come to nothing so take all this with a pinch of salt.
The cb that iron dragon sells has caused some discomfort in many and as its untested and to be quite frank maynot work as ru does not in some and for me anything with alcohol or prop glycol causes dry scalp and takes weeks to calm down its only now my hair is beginning to recover with the igrow laser helmet and my own made shampoo that has rosemery and grapeseed in it.
My hair had stopped growing as well for a few years not as fast that is and within two months of the helmet its growing again.
I Have stopped dutasteride as it did nothing as finasteride did as well and no minoxidil im going totally natural and it seems to be working im going to add another natural topical and am taking natural dht prostate health as well tablets.

----------


## Wiffle

> here we go again it was in the 1990s that ru58841 was going through trials and after all this time many of these so called hair loss drugs and naturals come to nothing so take all this with a pinch of salt.
> The cb that iron dragon sells has caused some discomfort in many and as its untested and to be quite frank maynot work as ru does not in some and for me anything with alcohol or prop glycol causes dry scalp and takes weeks to calm down its only now my hair is beginning to recover with the igrow laser helmet and my own made shampoo that has rosemery and grapeseed in it.
> My hair had stopped growing as well for a few years not as fast that is and within two months of the helmet its growing again.
> I Have stopped dutasteride as it did nothing as finasteride did as well and no minoxidil im going totally natural and it seems to be working im going to add another natural topical and am taking natural dht prostate health as well tablets.


 You can get real CB at very high purity levels if you look around.  The key is the right vehicle and I believe we have that too.

----------


## lilpauly

Doke it's a vehicle problem . It always has been . When mpbtreatments sold it as well the results were awful. The 17ap cream has it of ingredients that will not benefit the hair . In fact actually suffocate the hair shaft!  Mineral oil is no good

----------


## doke

yes and the delivery was the problem with the sintov flutamide gel and because it never came to the market no one could get the formula right as most people trying it got systemic side effects.
What im saying is all these different drugs may or maynot ever be on sale so then as with ru its experimental and ru will never become legit, so its not worth getting excited about we can talk here till the cows come home about dreams but not until anything actually proves it will not harm humans and not until the companies get fda and uk approval.
It really sucks i know but as of this time we only have the two drugs and even dutas as we know is not for mpb approved and this is so unreal as they have been available since the late 1980s minox that is and over them years how many so called new naturals and drugs been talked about on many forums over them years and none have been a real cures for mpb only maybe some help and like ru and dutastride caused me more hair loss.

----------


## HairBane

> You can get real CB at very high purity levels if you look around.  The key is the right vehicle and I believe we have that too.


 Which vehicle is that? What is currently regarded as the most effective?

----------


## Amercancer

What happened to RU? Any good? If any bad whats to expect? I don't know if I should continue. I mix it with minox. I'm afraid of it because I was searching around to see if any sides, and ran across something scary where someone has heart failure from it. He might be bs to. I don't know.

----------


## lilpauly

> What happened to RU? Any good? If any bad whats to expect? I don't know if I should continue. I mix it with minox. I'm afraid of it because I was searching around to see if any sides, and ran across something scary where someone has heart failure from it. He might be bs to. I don't know.


 Yes man his name was zeros. He ordered it a while back from mpbtreatmrnts and he hasn't been active sense then . I talked to via email when the situation happened . Bottom line is there is risk to any thing we use wether it's Minox, fin or experimentals . The advice I would give us consult your dr before starting treatment

----------


## Amercancer

Lilpauly, r u on it? If yes what do u think of it.

----------


## Amercancer

I'm just wondering why nobody talks about RU as much? It's been out for a while now. I'm lost, I don't know if I should continue with it. I know if I c a doctor he will tell me not to use something that's not FDA approved. I just want to know about others that are using this stuff.

----------


## lilpauly

> I'm just wondering why nobody talks about RU as much? It's been out for a while now. I'm lost, I don't know if I should continue with it. I know if I c a doctor he will tell me not to use something that's not FDA approved. I just want to know about others that are using this stuff.


 Lots of people use ru . I do. For the most part people experience less sides in ru then fin ,

----------


## burtandernie

Think about how you already know what a doctor would you tell you. Why do you think most medical professionals would advise against that? Everyone makes their own decisions though.

----------


## rdawg

Ru and CB are the two most interesting grey market products.

CB sounds much better in theory(no systemic absorbtion, use it less etc.) but somehow for whatever reason after years we still don't know what vehicle to use, so there's little point in buying it now, but that may change soon.

I've always been a little skeptical of RU, I dont think it's any more affective than fin, as in very few have a great reaction(thicken up) but the vast majority just maintain. And the sides seem to be similar for the most part from what I read, but for some it may be a good alternative.

----------


## cookies

In Cosmo's presentation from november they mentioned amendements in their cb trails due to a change in formulation (http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...Healthcare.pdf see p29). 

Was this already know? I haven't seen anyone discussing it here.

----------


## lilpauly

> In Cosmo's presentation from november they mentioned amendements in their cb trails due to a change in formulation (http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...Healthcare.pdf see p29). 
> 
> Was this already know? I haven't seen anyone discussing it here.


 Great find!!! A change to what though ? Vehicle ?

----------


## doke

It also looks that cb is a long way ahead until it comes available for any of us, i notice that it comes in the cyproterone and flutamide bracket and we know that them too are systemic which is what the sintov study of flutamide used a topical gel that only worked at the hair follicles with little side effects.
And i still wonder why we never got that on the market it maybe down to cost of the trials on humans and thats why mpb and all forms of alopecis suck because its not important for drug companies to concentrate on alopecia unless they know they can afford the trials and get fda and world approval and make a lot of money from it.
I mean we in uk have new drugs for cancer and other life saving products that are too expensive for our health service to buy and for one its terrible that these drug companies favor profit over life so where does that leave hairloss at the back burner for importance.

----------


## cookies

> Great find!!! A change to what though ? Vehicle ?


 Actually this presentation was already posted 10 pages ago. The presentation doesn't mention vehicles at all, so i assume they changed the formulation of CB itself.

----------


## cookies

> I mean we in uk have new drugs for cancer and other life saving products that are too expensive for our health service to buy and for one its terrible that these drug companies favor profit over life so where does that leave hairloss at the back burner for importance.


 They're companies and not charities. If they wouldn't make profit, they'd got bankrupt.

----------


## doke

yes they are companies and not charities but where does compassion lie these so called companies charging say £37000 for a  drug to save your life how could anybody afford that and thats where even uk nhs has to draw a line.

----------


## itssomuchfun

Hello,

I've been a lurker on this forum for a while. Had tried the Rogaine foam and oral minoxidil but have been on nothing for months. Have never wanted to try Fin or Dut. Decided I'd try CB because of the supposed lack of sexual sides involved.

I just received CB from the ID website (I know many on the forum say the site is a fraud). It comes premixed and when I read all the talk about ordering through Kane and mixing with different vehicles I realized I'd need a small lab of chemicals. So I'm giving this a shot.  It's a 30ml in a solution of ethanol and propylene glycol. 10mg/ml. I couldn't find out from reading page after page on this thread how much I'm supposed to use. It's a liquid dropper. Do I measure out 1ml of solution and apply it daily? Do I use 0.5 ml and use it daily? What is the appropriate amount to use?  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

----------


## itssomuchfun

Hello,

I've been a lurker on this forum for a while. Had tried the Rogaine foam and oral minoxidil but have been on nothing for months. Have never wanted to try Fin or Dut. Decided I'd try CB because of the supposed lack of sexual sides involved.

I just received CB from the ID website (I know many on the forum say the site is a fraud). It comes premixed and when I read all the talk about ordering through Kane and mixing with different vehicles I realized I'd need a small lab of chemicals. So I'm giving this a shot.  It's a 30ml in a solution of ethanol and propylene glycol. 10mg/ml. I couldn't find out from reading page after page on this thread how much I'm supposed to use. It's a liquid dropper. Do I measure out 1ml of solution and apply it daily? Do I use 0.5 ml and use it daily? What is the appropriate amount to use?  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

----------


## itssomuchfun

Sorry for the double post. I read went back further in this thread and it looks like hellhouser was using a 12.5&#37; concentration of CB in 1.5ml using dropper once a day. Does that cover your entire scalp?

----------


## hellouser

> Sorry for the double post. I read went back further in this thread and it looks like hellhouser was using a 12.5% concentration of CB in 1.5ml using dropper once a day. Does that cover your entire scalp?


 Incorrect.

I'm using anywhere from 15mg to 30mg per 1ml.

----------


## doke

> Hello,
> 
> I've been a lurker on this forum for a while. Had tried the Rogaine foam and oral minoxidil but have been on nothing for months. Have never wanted to try Fin or Dut. Decided I'd try CB because of the supposed lack of sexual sides involved.
> 
> I just received CB from the ID website (I know many on the forum say the site is a fraud). It comes premixed and when I read all the talk about ordering through Kane and mixing with different vehicles I realized I'd need a small lab of chemicals. So I'm giving this a shot.  It's a 30ml in a solution of ethanol and propylene glycol. 10mg/ml. I couldn't find out from reading page after page on this thread how much I'm supposed to use. It's a liquid dropper. Do I measure out 1ml of solution and apply it daily? Do I use 0.5 ml and use it daily? What is the appropriate amount to use?  Any suggestions would be appreciated.


 hi is the id cb greasy and please let us know how you get on with it.

----------


## doke

> Incorrect.
> 
> I'm using anywhere from 15mg to 30mg per 1ml.


 hi hell how are you getting on with the cb as i heard on one forum of burning scalp.

----------


## itssomuchfun

Sorry Hellouser for the incorrect info. How many ml are you using? I started using it yesterday and it's impossible to use just 1ml for my entire scalp crown to vertex, at that is what I've found. 

Doke, I just ordered it from their website. Just google Iron Dragon. It's listed as Cortexolone 17-Alpha Propionate which is supposedly the same thing. I got it in about 10 days. Hopefully some of my hair loss starts to abate in the next month or two because I'm am pretty close to just shaving it off because it's very thin on top it's a few months away from looking pretty silly.

----------


## yan

Today`s cosmo-presentation is a bit disappointing...

Only info about cb for alopecia is this:

Pre clinical: 
- Pre-clinical development on mini-pigs (6 and 9 months) to obtain the chronic use of the drug;
- last tolerability test ongoing

clinical:
- phase I clinical study in EU completed
- PK results: *˂1% API absorption into the blood = topical drug*
- Phase II POC: design with 3 arms (drug, placebo, comparator), 6 months treatment + follow up, male pts only

regulatory:
- Pre-IND meeting held on 18 Dec 13, full FDA agreement on development program

http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F...ainate2014.pdf

----------


## TwoInchCircle

> Today`s cosmo-presentation is a bit disappointing...


 To say the LEAST. The first thing I did this morning was head over to Cosmo's site to check it out and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. At first, I thought it might be an outline to their real presentation, but, sadly, it _is_ the real presentation. 

I wasn't expecting them to spill all their secrets regarding vehicles and such, but I was expecting a little more information on whether the trials' success and such...

Oh well...

----------


## LMS

straight up, who cares about the alopecia version.  when the acne version hits shelves, damn straight we reverse engineering that bitch and making our own super powerful shit.

but until then its fin + ru.

such is life.

----------


## HairBane

> Today`s cosmo-presentation is a bit disappointing...
> 
> Only info about cb for alopecia is this:
> 
> Pre clinical: 
> - Pre-clinical development on mini-pigs (6 and 9 months) to obtain the chronic use of the drug;
> - last tolerability test ongoing
> 
> clinical:
> ...


 Yes there's a lack of info, but at least it seems like they're getting good safety and efficacy with acne and progressing to phase 3. I wasn't really expecting vehicle info, the most they've said so far is that PG/OL gave like 100x penetration, so why not use that?

Also, what does the 'phase i clinical study in EU completed' part mean?

----------


## UK_

> checking this forum everyday isn't helping me either. My hairloss is slow and minox is the only thing i got that has kept me steady and that doesn't say much. *especially, since we are now in 2014 and i'm using the best treatment now that was available in the damn 80's.* it's disgusting.
> 
> Wish you the best everyone. I'm done with this forum. Time to move on with my life and with the hair i got. My rant is done.
> 
> Peace guys.


 lol!

----------


## TravisB

> Today`s cosmo-presentation is a bit disappointing...
> 
> Only info about cb for alopecia is this:
> 
> Pre clinical: 
> - Pre-clinical development on mini-pigs (6 and 9 months) to obtain the chronic use of the drug;
> - last tolerability test ongoing
> 
> clinical:
> ...


 What's so disappointing in this? At least we know that they are moving forward.

Also the acne version phase III trials will probably start this year.

I think acne version has the chance to hit the market in 2016-2017, but I'm not sure about alopecia version. Maybe it will hit the market before 2020, if ever.

But if acne version turns out to be also effective for MPB, then we're all good

----------


## cookies

There are no big revelations, but no bad news either. 

They mention that their vehicle for acne treatement is QD or BID, but I have no idea what these abbrevations stand for, but it will be a cream. I'm not sure if you can put that on your head.

----------


## cookies

> Also, what does the 'phase i clinical study in EU completed' part mean?


 That they completed phase 1 of their clinical study in the EU? Which I find a bit confusing, since their other data seem to indicate that they're in an earlier stage of their clinical study, but I'm no expert.

----------


## TravisB

Also quote from Cosmo website:




> An IND was granted in the US for CB-03-01 for acne in Q1 2012. Phase II dose escalating clinical trials were initiated in the US in H2 2012 and are scheduled to be completed in H1 2014. An IND is planned to be filed for alopecia in H1 2014.


 And quote from CB alopecia presentation




> Pre-IND meeting held on 18 Dec 13, full FDA agreement on
> development program


 So now let's look at that - in Q1 2012 an IND (Investigational New Drug) was granted for CB for acne, and 2 years later (this year) they will probably be starting Phase III. 

This year an IND will also be granted for CB for alopecia, so if everything went same way, phase III trials would be starting in 2016. This IMO would make year 2018-2019 very realistic for the release of CB for alopecia. Perhaps the things could be speeded up even more if acne CB went on the market and was proven to be a safe and well studied substance.

I'm positive about Cosmo because from their pipeline I see they meet their deadlines and don't delay things.

Actually according to their pipeline, Phase II POC (proof of concept) stage for CB for alopecia is going to end in H1/2015. But does anyone know how POC stage differs from an ordinary Phase II? Because looking at their pipeline it's the same

----------


## Pentarou

> straight up, who cares about the alopecia version.  when the acne version hits shelves, damn straight we reverse engineering that bitch and making our own super powerful shit.
> 
> but until then its fin + ru.
> 
> such is life.


 True! The acne version of CB-03-01 hitting the market will be a Big Deal, that will indicate that 99.99&#37; of the battle is already won. At worst then, that will mean that CB will be widely available off-licence/off-label for hair loss treatment purposes like Avodart has been for the last decade.

----------


## mikeswick

> True! The acne version of CB-03-01 hitting the market will be a Big Deal, that will indicate that 99.99% of the battle is already won. At worst then, that will mean that CB will be widely available off-licence/off-label for hair loss treatment purposes like Avodart has been for the last decade.


 is CB for maintenance of what you already have? or does it regrow hair?

----------


## Dan26

> is CB for maintenance of what you already have? or does it regrow hair?


 will depend on the person...like fin/dut, mostly for maintanence but could get regrowth. Preliminary trials (iontophereis ones) showed good regrowth

----------


## Alias123

so the treatment for acne is expected this year or what? if you say that we can trust their pipeline...

----------


## TravisB

> so the treatment for acne is expected this year or what? if you say that we can trust their pipeline...


 No

Cosmo will start phase III trials this year. 

Phase III should take up to 2 years I think, and if CB passes Phase III, then FDA must review and approve the drug (it also takes up to 2 years), and then it can be marketed.

I think we will see CB for acne on the shelves in 2018 max, and 1-2 years later the MPB version.

It's not that far really if you think about it. 2018 is only 4 years away  :Big Grin: . And IMO it's the worst case because it can come in 2017 or even 2016.

But again I don't know shit and it's just my opinion + a bit of wishful thinking  :Big Grin:

----------


## TravisB

> There are no big revelations, but no bad news either. 
> 
> They mention that their vehicle for acne treatement is QD or BID, but I have no idea what these abbrevations stand for, but it will be a cream. *I'm not sure if you can put that on your head.*


 I imagine that you can and it will be effective for MPB (at least to some extent). The main problem is it will probably be hard to apply if you don't have very short hair

----------


## rdawg

Why is everyone worrying about the CB release date?

We really just need to know the vehicle then we can purchase the stuff ourselves.

----------


## locke999

> Why is everyone worrying about the CB release date?
> 
> We really just need to know the vehicle then we can purchase the stuff ourselves.


 Why are so many people on this forum under the assumption that we can just replicate anything so easily.

Oh follica is damaging skin to induce growth of hair follicles, herp derp ill just hurt my head with a dermaroller. 

Oh Cosmo has a hair producing consisting of main ingredient CB0301, herp derp, i'll just order some chemical from some random Chinese dude with a website that makes a bunch of money off of desperate dudes with hair loss. 

Its like a child thinking they can imitate a hundred dollar bill by scanning and printing it with a lexmark printer. All this "we just need the ingedient huehueheue and we can do the cure ourselves is delusional.

----------


## rdawg

> Why are so many people on this forum under the assumption that we can just replicate anything so easily.
> 
> Oh follica is damaging skin to induce growth of hair follicles, herp derp ill just hurt my head with a dermaroller. 
> 
> Oh Cosmo has a hair producing consisting of main ingredient CB0301, herp derp, i'll just order some chemical from some random Chinese dude with a website that makes a bunch of money off of desperate dudes with hair loss. 
> 
> Its like a child thinking they can imitate a hundred dollar bill by scanning and printing it with a lexmark printer. All this "we just need the ingedient huehueheue and we can do the cure ourselves is delusional.


 Follica's wounding process is much more complicated as it includes FGF9 which we have no idea the damage that can do nor can we get our hands on that actual chemical i believe. 

all we need to use CB is the dosage and the vehicle, there's nothing complicated to it. It's the same thing with RU.

It's a little risky, but most say that CB has a safe profile, so this is exactly the kind of drug you can use on the grey market.

----------


## robodoc

> In posting the cb test result tomorrow . It's very pure over 99.9. For the vCosmo gave a presentation the other day hopefully there is something in it regarding cb vehicle  . I told Kane many timed he needs to make a vehicle for cb. I also told him ethanol vehicles suck. I can't use it any more . 70% ethanol is no good for ru and I don't know why he is selling it . Ethanol must be 95% min


 
My RU dissolves in about 10 min in IsoAlc 70%, 1 gram/10ml alc.

----------


## Seuxin

But actually.....who are reasearching this vehicle ( excepting cosmo of course).
The Kane Shop ?

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah people read a research article and think they are scientists so they start their own great experiments. There will never be a cure for stupid.

----------


## hellouser

> Why are so many people on this forum under the assumption that we can just replicate anything so easily.
> 
> Oh follica is damaging skin to induce growth of hair follicles, herp derp ill just hurt my head with a dermaroller. 
> 
> Oh Cosmo has a hair producing consisting of main ingredient CB0301, herp derp, i'll just order some chemical from some random Chinese dude with a website that makes a bunch of money off of desperate dudes with hair loss. 
> 
> Its like a child thinking they can imitate a hundred dollar bill by scanning and printing it with a lexmark printer. All this "we just need the ingedient huehueheue and we can do the cure ourselves is delusional.


 Yeah, RU is just a scam.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, 

After doing a bit of research, I think I may have found the right vehicle for optimal CB-03-01 absorption. Here's the ingredients required:

1) Ceteareth-20
2) Cetostearyl alcohol
3) Dimethicone 200
4) Glyceryl monostearate
5) Methyl Hydroxybenzoate
6) Light liquid paraffin
7) PEG-100 stearate
8) Phenoxyethanol 
9) Propyl Hydroxybenzoate
10) Stearyl alcohol
11) Water
12) Sodium hydroxide
13) Emu oil

These are the exact ingredients needed to get CB-03-01 to the dermal papillae where the androgen receptors reside. I'm gonna try and do a bit more digging to get exact percentages of each ingredient. Obviously, with this many ingredients involved, we need to get to this compounded by a third party (Kane, etc); but at least I'm 90% sure this will be the vehicle needed to overcome absorption problems. 

Cheers,


- Desmond

----------


## Ted

> Hey guys, 
> 
> After doing a bit of research, I think I may have found the right vehicle for optimal CB-03-01 absorption. Here's the ingredients required:
> 
> 1) Ceteareth-20
> 2) Cetostearyl alcohol
> 3) Dimethicone 200
> 4) Glyceryl monostearate
> 5) Methyl Hydroxybenzoate
> ...


 How did you find this information? Do you have any sources?

----------


## lilpauly

> Hey guys, 
> 
> After doing a bit of research, I think I may have found the right vehicle for optimal CB-03-01 absorption. Here's the ingredients required:
> 
> 1) Ceteareth-20
> 2) Cetostearyl alcohol
> 3) Dimethicone 200
> 4) Glyceryl monostearate
> 5) Methyl Hydroxybenzoate
> ...


 That's for acne it's no good bro. Liquid paraffin is mineral oil and that's very bad for hair

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah please show your work like 4th grade math class.

----------


## itssomuchfun

I never properly replied to doke. The CB from ID is really not that greasy. That said, when the CB dries it's not as though you can just style it with a comb and look like you've got nothing in your hair. There's a bit of a wet look if you're like me my baldness shows much worse with any kind of product in it. It's not as bad as rogaine foam or liquid, but it's still something I only use at night. 

It's too early to say much about it efficacy. I've been shedding for a few months now ever since I stopped taking oral minoxidil and that hasn't abated at all in the 5 days since I've started this, but really that means nothing.

I'll give it time and monitor the effects and sides if there are any.

----------


## UK_

we have nothing guys its all over

aderans failed
replicel looks crap
acell has failed everything has failed and nigam was a fraud... its all over.

----------


## Jazz1

> we have nothing guys its all over
> 
> aderans failed
> replicel looks crap
> acell has failed everything has failed and nigam was a fraud... its all over.


 No, cow poo, cow piss mixed with emu oil and castor oil we have cure.

----------


## lilpauly

> No, cow poo, cow piss mixed with emu oil and castor oil we have cure.


 Hi jazz dont forget horny cow grass , saw palmetto , biotin,

----------


## Pentarou

> we have nothing guys its all over
> 
> aderans failed
> replicel looks crap
> acell has failed everything has failed and nigam was a fraud... its all over.


 Histogen, Pilox, PGD2 blockers, the Indian dermarolling + minox study, Bimatoprost...

----------


## BDDFreak

> Histogen, Pilox, PGD2 blockers, Bimatoprost...


 Don't forget cb, follica, and pilofocus  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

> Histogen, Pilox, PGD2 blockers, the Indian dermarolling + minox study, Bimatoprost...


 wdf is indian dermarolling?

pgd2 blockers?  does that shit actually work?

Pilox is a scam with a dodgy "nigam" website... and BIM failed phase II.  

Histogen has always been my top pic... since... 2007... and still is.

Histogen FTW.  Follica and Histogen is all we have now... we're relying on two small back-office companies with minimal finance to practically cure baldness... yeah... its a crapshoot alright.

----------


## rdawg

> Hey guys, 
> 
> After doing a bit of research, I think I may have found the right vehicle for optimal CB-03-01 absorption. Here's the ingredients required:
> 
> 1) Ceteareth-20
> 2) Cetostearyl alcohol
> 3) Dimethicone 200
> 4) Glyceryl monostearate
> 5) Methyl Hydroxybenzoate
> ...


 interesting stuff and clearly shows why it seems to be complicated in finding a vehicle for this stuff!

Pauly makes a good point though, is there an alternative to using mineral oil? and where did you figure out these ingredients?

----------


## rdawg

> That's for acne it's no good bro. Liquid paraffin is mineral oil and that's very bad for hair


 Are the other ingredients fine for the hair though? as then we'd only need to find one alternative

----------


## lilpauly

In my eyes we need a ionto machine they used 1%

----------


## rdawg

> In my eyes we need a ionto machine they used 1%


 isnt that impractical cost wise?

there's gotta be a way to do it without the machine

----------


## Desmond84

Yeah if Mineral oil is no good we can cross it out and just add more Emu oil. That shouldn't be a problem. I'm pretty confident this formula works though. So here's the breakdown: 

1) Ceteareth-20: this is the emulsifier with non-ionic surfactant properties. It will help CB dissolve better and stay in the vehicle during storage. 

2) Cetostearyl alcohol / Oleyl alcohol: either of these will do as the solvent/emulsion stabiliser. I did a bit of reading on CB-03-01 properties and it seems to definitely be soluble in DMSO. DMSO is not a good solvent for long-term use and has had some possible deaths associated with its use! So after digging around a bit I thought either of these should be a decent replacement. Has anyone been able to dissolve CB in alcohol? Plz let me know asap...thx

3) Dimethicone 200: keeps the skin moist and improves absorption. A lot of topicals have this added to ensure optimal absorption. 

4) Glyceryl monostearate: should help CB dissolve in alcohol and will also act as a preservative. 

5) Methyl Hydroxybenzoate: is also a common preservative added. We wanna make sure these expensive batches have long enough shelf expiry. 

6) Light liquid paraffin: I think Lilpauly mentioned this is no good for hair growth so lets cross this off the list. We'll replace it with more emu oil.

7) PEG-100 stearate: is a water-soluble ester found in coconut oil and is used to make sure the water phase and oil phase stay mixed together. Otherwise they separate after a few days of sitting on the shelf. You'll find this ingredient in many of the shampoos, cream, lotions , etc. 

8) Phenoxyethanol: is also a preservative with bacteriostatic properties. It is generally combined with methyl hydroxybenzoate to provide a broad bacteriostatic protection againsts a range of microbes. 

9) Propyl Hydroxybenzoate: is another preservative used against fungal growth. 

10) Stearyl alcohol: this is not a must but may help with absorption. 

11) Water: just to make it a bit more runny so we can easily apply it to scalp. The emulsifiers we used should keep it in the vehicle. 

12) Sodium hydroxide: this is a chemical buffer to adjust the pH to around 5.5 (skin pH). This way our lotion wont sting when we apply it. 

13) Emu oil: this is simply to increase absorption deep into the dermal layer! And is a great substitute for mineral oils which seems to be bad for hair (Thx Lilpauly for pointing it out).

I'm pretty sure that's all we need. I'll work out the concentrations this weekend and we can make the first batch ASAP  :Smile:  

Any suggestions are welcome guys. Let's crack this beast once and for all.

----------


## Desmond84

> How did you find this information? Do you have any sources?


 I've been looking at what topicals treatments target the dermal papille and came across VANIQA cream. Vaniqa cream is Eflornithine hydrochloride, a topical treatment used to delay regrowth of unwanted facial hair in women. It inhibits ornithine decarboxylase which is an enzyme manufactured in dermal papillae to promote hair growth. Anyways long story short, Gillete came up with the following formula to get the Vaniqa cream deep into the dermal layer where dermal papillae reside so I'm pretty confident a similar ingredient should get CB to the androgen receptors on the surface of dermal papillae.

----------


## Kudu

Thanks Desmond! Here's hoping that it works!

----------


## Desmond84

No worries kudu. Fingers crossed. 

Btw, does anyone have access to this article? Do we know what ingredients they used to make the vehicle for the acne trial?

----------


## Desmond84

Oops, sorry. 

This is the article in question:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21428978

----------


## Julian P

> No worries kudu. Fingers crossed. 
> 
> Btw, does anyone have access to this article? Do we know what ingredients they used to make the vehicle for the acne trial?


 You can find the article here: http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...D-20110608.pdf I guess you'll have access to it. 

At first  sight, I don't think they list the ingredients for the vehicle. They do mention CB easily penetrates human skin (and refer to an article I can't find:
Ford G. CB-03-01: in vitro dermal penetration studies. BioDynamics Research Ltd Study Report CPS ⁄01, October 2007. Data on Cosmo ﬁle ).

----------


## Seuxin

> I've been looking at what topicals treatments target the dermal papille and came across VANIQA cream. Vaniqa cream is Eflornithine hydrochloride, a topical treatment used to delay regrowth of unwanted facial hair in women. It inhibits ornithine decarboxylase which is an enzyme manufactured in dermal papillae to promote hair growth. Anyways long story short, Gillete came up with the following formula to get the Vaniqa cream deep into the dermal layer where dermal papillae reside so I'm pretty confident a similar ingredient should get CB to the androgen receptors on the surface of dermal papillae.


 "a topical treatment used to delay regrowth of unwanted facial hair in women. It inhibits ornithine decarboxylase which is an enzyme manufactured in dermal papillae to promote hair growth"

It's like the famous Babarbea treatments no ? : http://www.personalformulator.com/wv...roducts_id=406

----------


## rdawg

Hoping you forward this information to Kane Desmond, and then soon enough we can have some people testing this stuff out with a proper vehicle(if that is the proper vehicle)

Just hope all of those ingrediants dont cause any harmful sides.

----------


## rdawg

Nothing more on this? Seems we discovered the potential ingredients needed and then the thread fell off.

----------


## robodoc

> Nothing more on this? Seems we discovered the potential ingredients needed and then the thread fell off.


 
The topical antiandrogen guru, Hellouser said 50% alcohol (Everclear I believe)
and 50% PEG (some call it PE but it is propylene glycol).  That is the vehicle some are using.

----------


## itssomuchfun

Quick update on my premixed CB usage from Iron Dragon. Two weeks in now and no side effects that I can notice, unless you can count a spike in depression. I am clinically depressed, have been since my early teens, so I don't think it's the drug at this time. The one noted thing is the increase in shedding. I always lose hair in the shower and combing, anywhere from 50-100 hairs every morning for the last couple of years. The last week though it has doubled. I suppose this may the effect of the anti-androgen. Anyway it sucks because I don't have much coverage anymore, but I'll stick with it to see if it subsides. If not it will be time to see how I look with a buzz cut.

----------


## lilpauly

> Hoping you forward this information to Kane Desmond, and then soon enough we can have some people testing this stuff out with a proper vehicle(if that is the proper vehicle)
> 
> Just hope all of those ingrediants dont cause any harmful sides.


 I would substitute mineral oil with coconut oil

----------


## Desmond84

Sorry guys, I've been looking for my formulation book and just found it. Have to come up with percentages and an extemporaneous method of preparation. Then we can forward the information to a third party. Don't worry, better days are coming

----------


## lilpauly

I think the ingredients are the most inpressive for cb  vehicle thus far , great find !!! Im dropping dut , ran out and I feel soooo much better! Might add cb instead!

----------


## rdawg

> Sorry guys, I've been looking for my formulation book and just found it. Have to come up with percentages and an extemporaneous method of preparation. Then we can forward the information to a third party. Don't worry, better days are coming


 Awesome stuff desmond, definitely hopeful that this is the proper or close to the proper vehicle for CB to work it's magic!

get it figured out so we can begin testing it out ourselves :Big Grin:

----------


## Seuxin

It's really a good news, it will be very good that it will be a good vehicle.

When could we have news about ?
What's the first step please ??

Thanks  :Smile:

----------


## HairBane

http://www.allergan.com/assets/pdf/vaniqa_pi.pdf - little bit more info about the cream Desmond found (owned by allergan of bimatoprost apparently). It's a smart idea to use a vehicle which is known to deliver a drug to the hair follicle already.

Can't find anything about percentages, but this book http://www.scribd.com/doc/148016362/...olids-Products which I can't access, apparently has some info on it.

Does the company have to disclose the percentages for safety reasons or anything? I'm not into chemistry, but if we purchased some of this cream, given that we know the ingredients, could we have each ingredient 'tested' to see the molecular weight present in each gram, and therefore calculate the percentage?

----------


## Seuxin

Hope wee could test this vehicle soon !
Is the Cb from kane true , or a false CB ?

----------


## lilpauly

> Hope wee could test this vehicle soon !
> Is the Cb from kane true , or a false CB ?


 Third party tested  2 times its legit unfortunately we must find a good vehicle

----------


## hellouser

> Third party tested  2 times its legit unfortunately we must find a good vehicle


 Can we not inject it? Or dermaroll and then apply it with current vehicles?

----------


## clarence

> Third party tested  2 times its legit unfortunately we must find a good vehicle


 Correct vehicle?? Haven't you read Desmond's posts????

----------


## lilpauly

> Correct vehicle?? Haven't you read Desmond's posts????


 Yes man hopefully that vechicle is a good one, I think injection are a bad idea

----------


## rdawg

just waiting on an update from desmond

----------


## Desmond84

Sorry guys, Valentines day occupied most of my time this weekend. I'll be on it the first chance I get. Most of the work is done anyways  :Wink:

----------


## Seuxin

It's so a good news Desmond84 ! I hope we could buyt it with CB soon in order to test this miracle  :Smile:

----------


## ytterligare

Is this better than finasteride in terms of hair maintenance? Or is it the same without side effects? Or even worse? Could someone explain that to me in 1-2 sentences? I'm not a native English speaker and can't understand most of the scientific vocabulary you are using here.

----------


## HairBane

> Is this better than finasteride in terms of hair maintenance? Or is it the same without side effects? Or even worse? Could someone explain that to me in 1-2 sentences? I'm not a native English speaker and can't understand most of the scientific vocabulary you are using here.


 More effective than finasteride, with little to no side effects.

----------


## lilpauly

I'm Hopi g this vehicle will work , it looks good , problem is the Cosmo presentation have not contained any useful info recently

----------


## rdawg

> Is this better than finasteride in terms of hair maintenance? Or is it the same without side effects? Or even worse? Could someone explain that to me in 1-2 sentences? I'm not a native English speaker and can't understand most of the scientific vocabulary you are using here.


 Being as there's no side effects supposedly with CB i'd use both if i could, especially if you have aggressive hairloss.

just hoping the vehicle desmond mentioned is the proper one.

----------


## deuce

Isn't the purpose of this vehicle intended to remove unwanted facial hair in women.  Wouldn,t this interfere with the hair growth process?  Just curious?

----------


## Borealis

> Isn't the purpose of this vehicle intended to remove unwanted facial hair in women.  Wouldn,t this interfere with the hair growth process?  Just curious?


 It's not a growth stimulator, it's an androgen receptor blocker. The same androgen that is responsible for facial hair growth is also responsible for hair loss in men (as far as I know).

----------


## Seuxin

Desmond84 know what he does  :Wink:  No panic  :Wink:

----------


## Cob984

Dude desmond how far is this vehicle?
PLease tell, i used cb in eth/pg and got sides so i cant continue, 
I have lost all my patience, i am getting a hair system but i might wait for this vehicle of yours as my final attempt,

Please keep us updated here on some kind of timeline, thanks

----------


## simba

> Dude desmond how far is this vehicle?
> PLease tell, i used cb in eth/pg and got sides so i cant continue, 
> I have lost all my patience, i am getting a hair system but i might wait for this vehicle of yours as my final attempt,
> 
> Please keep us updated here on some kind of timeline, thanks


 What sides did you get?

----------


## Cob984

Weight gain on lower abdomen, like really shitty, bloated stomach, just feeling very uncomfortable on my midsection

maybe a slightly lower libido, but really insignificant if at all, i would say pretty devoid of sexual sides

----------


## rdawg

> Weight gain on lower abdomen, like really shitty, bloated stomach, just feeling very uncomfortable on my midsection
> 
> maybe a slightly lower libido, but really insignificant if at all, i would say pretty devoid of sexual sides


 that may have been related to something else, or just a bad reaction to eth/pg as i've never heard of these side effects related to CB, it's localised.

----------


## kissmyscalp

Never heard about these side effects too.
Where did you buy your CB ? Maybe it was RU (scam).

And guys, are we sure this guy Desmond is trustworthy?
I don't wan't to loose my time with false hope.
(I'm just asking, I'm new here).

----------


## hellouser

> Never heard about these side effects too.
> Where did you buy your CB ? Maybe it was RU (scam).
> 
> And guys, are we sure this guy Desmond is trustworthy?
> I don't wan't to loose my time with false hope.
> (I'm just asking).


 If you don't trust Desmond, you shouldn't trust anyone at all. He's easily the MOST reputable member of any hair loss forum, PERIOD.

----------


## kissmyscalp

Ok I'm glad to hear that.

Thanks.

----------


## Cob984

No it is CB, i tried both kane and ID same sides,
Iv mentioned before CB in KB solution - no sides/no results
CB in emuoil/pg - no sides , no results

Cb in eth/pg - sides+results

----------


## kissmyscalp

What kind of results?

----------


## deuce

I thought cb was side effect free. That sucks if it is true. Might as well take fin. I know a few people who took it without sides though. Maybe cosmo delivery system prevented sides. Idk. I am sick of being obsessed with this crap though.

----------


## rdawg

> No it is CB, i tried both kane and ID same sides,
> Iv mentioned before CB in KB solution - no sides/no results
> CB in emuoil/pg - no sides , no results
> 
> Cb in eth/pg - sides+results


 still could be the eth, but the sides you had seem very unusual.

we'll see we need to figure out the true vehicle, as it's definitely more than just eth/pg.

----------


## Cob984

i get sides with everything obviously,
Yea maybe the eth, iv noticed anything with eth in it gives me brutal sides whether its minox, cb, fluridil whatever

----------


## iwealth

Loooong time lurker here. 

I'm 3 months into treatment w/ Kane's CB-03-01 using ethanol/PG as a carrier. Making small 5-7 ml batches at a time and the potency varies between 1.5-2.5% depending on the batch and how I'm feeling the day I make it. I'm applying once daily in the morning. This is temple-only treatment so I'm not using a full 1ml per application. 

I also use 5% spiro cream, topical minox, and 2% keto shampoo. These have been part of my regimen for far longer than just the past 3 months.

So far I've seen no improvement of results with the CB-03-01. No thickening or regrowth, and if anything I've lost some ground since November, but I attribute it to slow and steady MPB progress. 

Anyway, the problem is one of 5 things:
1) 3 months isn't long enough to judge
2) vehicle is no good
3) product doesn't work for me
4) product isn't real
5) product doesn't work period

Hopefully it's a combination of 1 and 2 because I believe tests have shown the product is real and that it should work as advertised.

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## HairBane

> Loooong time lurker here. 
> 
> I'm 3 months into treatment w/ Kane's CB-03-01 using ethanol/PG as a carrier. Making small 5-7 ml batches at a time and the potency varies between 1.5-2.5&#37; depending on the batch and how I'm feeling the day I make it. I'm applying once daily in the morning. This is temple-only treatment so I'm not using a full 1ml per application. 
> 
> I also use 5% spiro cream, topical minox, and 2% keto shampoo. These have been part of my regimen for far longer than just the past 3 months.
> 
> So far I've seen no improvement of results with the CB-03-01. No thickening or regrowth, and if anything I've lost some ground since November, but I attribute it to slow and steady MPB progress. 
> 
> Anyway, the problem is one of 5 things:
> ...


 6) Dose too low
7) A combination of the above. I think Kane's CB has been tested though, and in theory PG/ethanol at the right ratio should work, although it's too harsh for daily use for long periods, and almost certainly isn't optimal or very controlled.

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## lilpauly

It's the vehicle people used erhanol in the past with no results

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## lilpauly

Also Cosmo never used ethanol in any of the studies ,

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## Avacfc

Is there any update with this vehicle that desmond posted? I really think we all know without a rookie like me saying it that we should be putting 100% into this, its been a couple of weeks since he put it up. Even if desmond or someone else could advise of the suggested concentrations of each i will try track all the ingredients down myself.

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## hellouser

> Is there any update with this vehicle that desmond posted? I really think we all know without a rookie like me saying it that we should be putting 100% into this, its been a couple of weeks since he put it up. Even if desmond or someone else could advise of the suggested concentrations of each i will try track all the ingredients down myself.


 You'd need a good 3-5 months before you could make any kind of judgement if the vehicle is correct/incorrect. You have to take into consideration that not only does hair grow very slowly (about 1cm per month), it also has long phases:

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## Avacfc

> You'd need a good 3-5 months before you could make any kind of judgement if the vehicle is correct/incorrect. You have to take into consideration that not only does hair grow very slowly (about 1cm per month), it also has long phases:


 Yes you are right we all need to be patient but it would be nice to get this vehicle up and running to the point were we can start judging it.

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## deuce

So is this new efforts for a vehicle abandoned?  Wish I could contribute but I would not know what the f I am doing  I will contribute money though if needed.  I know everyone is excited about the new findings, but alot of us need something now. I am in my twenties and want to enjoy them without constant paranoia.  Hope all of you are doing well.

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## burtandernie

I know no one wants to wait, but you really cant figure out which of these it is until someone like cosmo or whoever licensed it does the work to answer some of this. The problem is random stories of people using it does not really lead you any closer to whether it actually works or not. Its so variable by person

Anyway, the problem is one of 5 things:
1) 3 months isn't long enough to judge
2) vehicle is no good
3) product doesn't work for me
4) product isn't real
5) product doesn't work period

----------


## inbrugge

I'm also desperate for CB. I'm holding out till the end of April. If no developments are made, I will bite the bullet on RU or possibly even Fin.

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## KUP

> I'm also desperate for CB. I'm holding out till the end of April. If no developments are made, I will bite the bullet on RU or possibly even Fin.


 Same here.

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## burtandernie

Is there anywhere that sells a premade RU solution like how hairloss talk sells a premade topical spiro? Im not mixing random chemicals in my basement guessing at what works. I also dont know if I want to wait a few years for the actual legit thing

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## kmit028

> Is there anywhere that sells a premade RU solution like how hairloss talk sells a premade topical spiro? Im not mixing random chemicals in my basement guessing at what works. I also dont know if I want to wait a few years for the actual legit thing


 here

http://anageninc.com/solutions/ru-solution-50ml.html

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## burtandernie

Thanks, but is this legal to buy and use in the US for hair loss? I want a good AA, but I was thinking more like a premixed solution not just the pure chemical. I have no idea what vehicle to use or how to make it nor do I want to attempt that
Im just a little impatient for some topical AA.

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## kmit028

> Thanks, but is this legal to buy and use in the US for hair loss? I want a good AA, but I was thinking more like a premixed solution not just the pure chemical. I have no idea what vehicle to use or how to make it nor do I want to attempt that
> Im just a little impatient for some topical AA.


 Yes this is a premixed solution, RU Solution 50ML
http://anageninc.com/solutions/ru-solution-50ml.html

As for USA customs... Better someone from USA advise whether or not this can be imported. As far as I know it should be fine as many people are using RU now from USA. 

You could also just place an order and see what happens, worst case you lose about $100... lol

----------


## itssomuchfun

Well I think it's been about 5 weeks now since I started using premixed CB from ID. My shedding has probably doubled in that time and this kind of shedding started immediately. Like I said in my previous posts, trying this was a bit of a last ditch effort because my hair has thinning so much on the top of my head that it's probably better that I shave it soon. Anyone here think it's a good sign that I'm shedding so much using CB? I keep thinking I should stick with it like Propecia users do when they have a shed.

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## PatientlyWaiting

Is anagen inc legit? How many of you vouch for it? And how long does 50ml last? What is the dosage?

----------


## hellouser

> Is anagen inc legit? How many of you vouch for it? And how long does 50ml last? What is the dosage?


 AnagenInc is a sister site of Kane. It should be just as legit.

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## PatientlyWaiting

> AnagenInc is a sister site of Kane. It should be just as legit.


 Thanks.

How long does 50ml last? What is the dosage?

I know you use RU, how is that going for you?

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## HairBane

> Thanks.
> 
> How long does 50ml last? What is the dosage?
> 
> I know you use RU, how is that going for you?


 Well 50mg per day (1ml of 5%) would last you 50 days.

----------


## lifelonglearning

Damn its been almost a year since this thread has been formed and still no luck finding a vehicle

----------


## JZA70

> Damn its been almost a year since this thread has been formed and still no luck finding a vehicle


 It's not like a bunch of basement dwellers are going to find it on their own. We would need a lab and a few skilled scientists.

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## doke

Why not kb solution for cb as yet we do not know what cosmo is a lotion or a cream.

----------


## Swooping

> Why not kb solution for cb as yet we do not know what cosmo is a lotion or a cream.


 You can use that perfectly fine. I don't know any argumentation why there needs to be a "special vehicle" considering the low molecular weight of CB plus that it is easy soluble and quite lipophilic. However you need to use a higher concentration than 1%, most likely in the range of 3-5%. 

If you have read the full original study of cb-03-01; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646372

You will know that it is slightly less effective than cyproterone acetate. Cyproterone acetate is like cb-03-01 a steroidal anti-androgen and quite a long time on the market. Be aware though that if the proposed pharmacokinetics are not true, cb-03-01 can be pretty harsh in terms of health. More so than non-steroidal anti androgens. Steroidal anti-androgens for instance exert a toxic effect on the cardiovascular system. So it's a risk you are taking. Obviously this won't be the case if it REALLY doesn't go systematic as proposed. 

Now about why you need to use 3-5% is quite simple. 




> A topical, non-steroidal androgen antagonist, PSK-3841 (formerly HMR-3841 and RU-58841), is being investigated in France by Proskelia for possible therapeutic value in AGA and acne. The compound was is Phase II clinical trials as of January 2004, and was originally researched by Roussel-Uclaf and Hoechst Marion Roussel. *When compared with the antiandrogenic compound cyproterone acetate, PSK-3841 exhibited a 20% increase in AR binding.* This compound binds to both the ligand and regulatory domains of the androgen receptor. PSK-3841 exerts allosteric binding effects and may provide a unique mechanism of action in the treatment of alopecia.


 Although this is an in vitro assay, I think you can pretty much figure it out why 1% will never cut it for AGA. RU-58841 is as strong and most likely even stronger than cb-03-01. I don't see many cases where using 10mg RU yields results lol  :Wink: . Well I guess you get it by now. Roussel-Uclaf were pretty much pioneers in discovering these extremely strong anti-androgens they also discovered RU-58642 which they wanted to use for baldness too, but never got past the initial stage. Probably because it is still the most powerful anti-androgen known to date lol; http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...60076097001519. Instant castration anyone? :P.

----------


## doke

> You can use that perfectly fine. I don't know any argumentation why there needs to be a "special vehicle" considering the low molecular weight of CB plus that it is easy soluble and quite lipophilic. However you need to use a higher concentration than 1%, most likely in the range of 3-5%. 
> 
> If you have read the full original study of cb-03-01; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646372
> 
> You will know that it is slightly less effective than cyproterone acetate. Cyproterone acetate is like cb-03-01 a steroidal anti-androgen and quite a long time on the market. Be aware though that if the proposed pharmacokinetics are not true, cb-03-01 can be pretty harsh in terms of health. More so than non-steroidal anti androgens. Steroidal anti-androgens for instance exert a toxic effect on the cardiovascular system. So it's a risk you are taking. Obviously this won't be the case if it REALLY doesn't go systematic as proposed. 
> 
> Now about why you need to use 3-5% is quite simple. 
> 
> 
> ...


 ho swoop why not use 1% iron dragon cb and try 2mls twice a day?

----------


## burtandernie

Whatever happened with RU-58642 why did these things never make it through to approval?

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## Swooping

> ho swoop why not use 1% iron dragon cb and try 2mls twice a day?


 You could. But are they legit? Only testing will answer that for you. Would be really expensive too I think to use at such a dosage.

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## gainspotter

> Whatever happened with RU-58642 why did these things never make it through to approval?


 Flogging a dead horse

----------


## zephyrprime

> Dude desmond how far is this vehicle?
> PLease tell, i used cb in eth/pg and got sides so i cant continue, 
> I have lost all my patience, i am getting a hair system but i might wait for this vehicle of yours as my final attempt,
> 
> Please keep us updated here on some kind of timeline, thanks


 If you got sides, that means the CB was fricken working because ethanol and pg will definitely not cause any sides (except itching on the scalp).  Moving to another vehicle will not help at all if you get sides.  After all, a better vehicle will allow for more absorption which will allow for more sides.

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## hgs1989

in CB studies they used  Iontophoresis to deliver the active ingredients. do you guys think that such can be accompllished at home with a machine for that purpose? or with another concept like electrophoresis? both machines can be bought through ebay. they are widelyy used in mesothrapy. searching google about electrophoresis I understood that electrophoresis opens the skin channels and deliver the ingredients to the skin through the HAIR FOLLICLE. the proble is I don't know if electrophoresis would kill the hair follicle in such a process because I haven't seen it being used in that purpose. as for Iontophoresis I didn't find much about it. if this works it would be the ultimate vehicle everybody is looking for. CB results were great with Iontophoresis. around 35% increase after one month.

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## hgs1989

> in CB studies they used  Iontophoresis to deliver the active ingredients. do you guys think that such can be accompllished at home with a machine for that purpose? or with another concept like electrophoresis? both machines can be bought through ebay. they are widelyy used in mesothrapy. searching google about electrophoresis I understood that electrophoresis opens the skin channels and deliver the ingredients to the skin through the HAIR FOLLICLE. the proble is I don't know if electrophoresis would kill the hair follicle in such a process because I haven't seen it being used in that purpose. as for Iontophoresis I didn't find much about it. if this works it would be the ultimate vehicle everybody is looking for. CB results were great with Iontophoresis. around 35% increase after one month.


 do you think something like the one in the link would work?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAPAN-SOSU-I...item27cf7b8c64

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## Allowme

> do you think something like the one in the link would work?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAPAN-SOSU-I...item27cf7b8c64


 Wow, if that does work as advertised, this changes everything. Not only for CB, but it will probably help with minox and ru too.

----------


## thickerhair

Hey guys, first post here... I want to do the same delivery method Cosmos used;
Iontophoresis transdermal drug delivery using cationic liposomes. Please correct me uf my understanding of their vehicle is incorrect. However I don't know which liposomes will work with CB-03-01.

I found some for sale here but which one do I need?
http://www.liposomeexpert.com/catego...nic-Liposomes/

Also will I only need to mix CB-03-01 with the liposomes? No Ester or PG or anything else?

----------


## thickerhair

My assumption that I need liposomes may be incorrect?

Can I use a Galvanic device to push CB thru the skin? It appears only positive ions are pushed thru. How do I know if CB or CB mixed with PG/Ethonol is positively charged? Will this work like Cosmos implementation?

----------


## cichlidfort

Is anyone having luck with CB and finding a vehicle or is this thread still trial and error?

----------


## burtandernie

Is CB officially out yet? Its been a few days since I checked last time

----------


## Westonci

> Is CB officially out yet? Its been a few days since I checked last time


 @FearTheLoss says he found a vehicle that works, but he wont spill the beans. wtf?

----------


## zpy22

Hi guys, there is another source of CB-03-01 in China. I think it is sinochemtech. Good luck.

----------


## zpy22

Could you please let me know which company is ID?

----------


## charlie76761

ignore the guy above - he's posting in the same a lot of threads. Obviously from the company

----------


## zpy22

Just show another realiable supplier to everyone.

----------


## charlie76761

> Just show another realiable supplier to everyone.


 Who happened to have just joined and his / her first 2 posts were about this company. Please.

----------


## tomp123

I am using CB-03-01 with retionol 0.5% in squalene. The ordinary Retinol 0.5% in Squalane. I am a biochemist in training. What you do think about this??

----------


## doke

The only thing i would say is that its more expensive than ru and you need a dose of about  5-8% as there is a company that already sells a 1% lotion but it did not work that was more for acne and the more you used of that lotion becomes too expensive so when Breezula does get released for androgenetic hair loss it will be good news and also the company says that you need expensive lab equipment to mix cb as well so its not as easy to make as ru.

----------


## Slowesta

> I am using CB-03-01 with retionol 0.5% in squalene. The ordinary Retinol 0.5% in Squalane. I am a biochemist in training. What you do think about this??


 I got cb last week and i am wondering if i should  mix it with stemoxydine or 
Alfatradiol or flurudil . 

Has anyone found a good vehicle for CB ?

----------


## doke

To be honest you are wasting your time as i have said before cb cannot be mixed as easy as ru you need lab equipment to mix it and that is very expensive do you not think that cb has been available for a number of years and people did try it but it did nothing anyone out there do not waste your money until the real deal becomes available on the market.

----------


## jdlondon

Hi guys,

Any updates?
Anyone used topical finasteride? I've currently been on 0.25% topical finasteride and 5% minoxidil but not sure it is working.
Also thinking of trying hairmax laser cap, anyone had experience with this?

Thanks guys!

J

----------


## mujdey

Oh, I remember that my brother had to do the Phd in chemistry. This was really difficult for him and he was doing it during 2 months. His mentor was helping him but most of the work he did himself. The examination process is not very easy too. It needs a lot of knowledge in chemistry. He was taking advice on PhDs almost everywhere and finally he did a good job. Now he's working on a very famous factory in US and has a good salary. I know that now he's earning for about 10k$. Soon, he is going to move in NY.

----------


## HairGuru

The trials are progressing and this should be released soon for purchase.....

----------


## Gayle Rolfson

Androgenetic hair loss is a serious topic!

----------


## mustang2

> To be honest you are wasting your time as i have said before cb cannot be mixed as easy as ru you need lab equipment to mix it and that is very expensive do you not think that cb has been available for a number of years and people did try it but it did nothing anyone out there do not waste your money until the real deal becomes available on the market.


 You don't need lab equipment. Basic pharmacy equipment will get the mix done. It's not expensive.

CB did nothing because people never tried it at 7.5% twice a day due to it's pricing.

----------


## hanndean

Yeah, I agree with Gayle Rolfson that hair loss is a serious topic and to this topic, I want to add some of my thoughts. I think thats the main thing in here lost are heredity and stress, and it's hard to do something with it, I've already tried minoxidil but before canceling my main stress factor, everything was bad. The main thing was that I couldnt find some fairy news to solve my problem but actually http://weareecs.co.uk helped me to find the truth. If some of you want to find fair reviews and reports about public services, these guys will help you.

----------


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