# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments >  All this talk about Propecia is getting me Depressed

## bob13

What the hell is going on.
Merck has shut down their website. Warnings are becoming alarming.

Should I quit . Should I stay on Propecia.

Is this drug gonna make my life depressing.

To tell you the truth I'm scared after taking the drug for 5 or 6 years.

Are you people even considering quitting?

Talk about it changing your brain.

Does anyone really know?
This is serious folks.

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## ccmethinning

I'm curious how old are you and has propecia been effective in maintaining your hair over that long period. Also, what if you family precedence for balding (like father and uncles were NW6 @ what age?)

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## 2020

god damnit... all these propecia threads are starting to make me think that my pills are fake because I have no side effects whatsover.

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## Maradona

imo bro, if you got no side effects for so long, then you're fine.

its very small amount of peopple who get the sides.

dont worry youll be fine.

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## StressedToTheBald

> What the hell is going on.
> Merck has shut down their website. Warnings are becoming alarming.
> 
> Should I quit . Should I stay on Propecia.
> 
> Is this drug gonna make my life depressing.
> 
> To tell you the truth I'm scared after taking the drug for 5 or 6 years.
> 
> ...


 You know my stance Bob, its common sense, quit, its a health hazard, its now official, 2 top studies published, they've put down their own website.. and lawyers are preparing for a bunch of lawsuits.. 

Let me tell You my own story Bob, a very personal experience with another powerful drug called Accutane. I was on it for months on extremely high doses, with this drug beeing the only official medical solution for my skin condition. But had I known 7 years ago, what I know now - that this drug was so powerful to induce rapidly progressive baldness, suicidal depression and impact on wound healing, as side effects and who knows what else.. had I known it back then and realized what I am gambling with - I would have quit and look for whatever other alternative but safe route.

Just think about my story Bob. I mean well. If propecia was safe, I'm also very desperate and have worse Norwood case baldness than You do, still I'm not giving it any chance to ruin the rest of my remaining health.

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## 2020

> You know my stance Bob, its common sense, quit, its a health hazard, its now official, 2 top studies published, they've put down their own website.. and lawyers are preparing for a bunch of lawsuits..


 lol I can show you plenty of studies where only a small percentage of people got side effects with finasteride... how would you explain that?? Study after study proves that it's safe.






> Just think about my story Bob. I mean well. If propecia was safe, I'm also very desperate and have worse Norwood case baldness than You do, still I'm not giving it any chance to ruin the rest of my remaining health.


 ^ don't listen to him... he's already bald and not even propecia would fix that therefore he has no reason to promote it since he's already too late for it.

Don't wait until you get to his level! Start treating hair loss now.

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## 25 going on 65

> What the hell is going on.
> Merck has shut down their website. Warnings are becoming alarming.
> 
> Should I quit . Should I stay on Propecia.
> 
> Is this drug gonna make my life depressing.
> 
> To tell you the truth I'm scared after taking the drug for 5 or 6 years.
> 
> ...


 Don't worry, you're fine.
The article that StressedToTheBald keeps spamming the forum with is a pop media piece about an unfunded, rather unscientific study conducted by Dr. Irwig over a year ago. It's not even news; Kobren covered it in early 2011:

http://www.thebaldtruth.com/hair-los...eride-syndrom/

We have 15 years of data showing that side effects on finasteride are rare, and go away after quitting. There is no solid evidence yet that anyone has suffered permanent side effects from this drug.
I've been on it for close to a year and a half. It's worked well for my hair, and has not adversely affected me - just like most people who have used finasteride.

The only thing to watch is your own body; if you have unwanted side effects, you can quit or see a doctor. Either way you'll be fine. Don't get depressed.

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## Follicle Death Row

> I was on it for months on extremely high doses, with this drug beeing the only official medical solution for my skin condition.


 Out of curiosity, can I ask what dose you where taking? I was taking 70mg a day for 9 months. Worked for the skin but I wonder did it kick start the process of mpb for me. I doubt it did but then I never really noticed hairloss until it got bad.

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## StressedToTheBald

Its rather pathetic how propecia promoters use certain facts only in the way that suits them. First they claim how all the doctors and MDs are behind propecia. But suddenly when people with high end reputation, top scientists, top universities, and a very good number of them, all professors, MDs make these new findings.. propecia promoters start throwing mud on these people, calling their studies pop, unscientific and what not.. Why ? Simply because they've told the truth and the truth is that propecia is a health hazard.

Again, common sense, would You take advice for professors and MDs or a few propecia promoters. The answer is very simple and straightforward.

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## PayDay

Do you guys listen to The Bald Truth? Spencer Kobren has been on finasteride for like 17 years. Most people will NEVER have any side effects and if you haven't had them after taking it for five years, why would you stop taking it if it's working for you? Stop panicking, there are no real studies showing that these persistent effects are caused by Propecia. You should really listen to the show if you don't!

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## 25 going on 65

> Its rather pathetic how propecia promoters use certain facts only in the way that suits them. First they claim how all the doctors and MDs are behind propecia. But suddenly when people with high end reputation, top scientists, top universities, and a very good number of them, all professors, MDs make these new findings.. propecia promoters start throwing mud on these people, calling their studies pop, unscientific and what not.. Why ? Simply because they've told the truth and the truth is that propecia is a health hazard.
> 
> Again, common sense, would You take advice for professors and MDs or a few propecia promoters. The answer is very simple and straightforward.


 A "very good number of top scientists, universities, professors and MD's have made these findings"? You got that from Irwig's unfunded, 71-man study?

And I said your examiner.com article is pop media, because it is. Don't rely on infotainment journalism for information on hair loss treatments.

And it's not even news. For the hundredth time, it was covered on this site early last year.

If you're just here to spam every active thread with this rubbish, admins should consider suspending your account. You are doing a horrible disservice to people who come here and are serious about hair loss.

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## StressedToTheBald

> Out of curiosity, can I ask what dose you where taking? I was taking 70mg a day for 9 months. Worked for the skin but I wonder did it kick start the process of mpb for me. I doubt it did but then I never really noticed hairloss until it got bad.


 It was 7 years ago, so I can't 100% recall the exact dosage I went with - I recall I insisted on the max. and went with it, it was body weight related, it might have been 80mg ! But I took it less months I think, maybe 7 or 8 months.

It worked for me too, BUT I still had smaller issues since, although never as serious as it used to be before the drug.. I always tend to have a few smaller inflamations.. so although it did cure me 90%, I still wish it was 100%..

Same here, I always had a bad frontal line, receding and all, but its only way too late that I noticed the huge loss on my crown.. I've became truly aware of it in my very late 20s.. several years after I finished Accutane. Too late sadly, now when I think of it, knowing that I always had receding hairlines.. I should have started some kind of treatment, not now, but when I was a teen !

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## StressedToTheBald

> Do you guys listen to The Bald Truth? Spencer Kobren has been on finasteride for like 17 years. Most people will NEVER have any side effects and if you haven't had them after taking it for five years, why would you stop taking it if it's working for you? Stop panicking, there are no real studies showing that these persistent effects are caused by Propecia. You should really listen to the show if you don't!


 Excuse me, but are You discrediting top 2 US Universities studies ? And trying to compare and portray the value of one personal experience with the reputation and credibilty of top scientists, professors and MDs ? Calling these people are their studies 'not real', now thats a proper insult.

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## 2020

> Excuse me, but are You discrediting top 2 US Universities studies ? And trying to compare and portray the value of one personal experience with the reputation and credibilty of top scientists, professors and MDs ? Calling these people are their studies 'not real', now thats a proper insult.


 All that those studies say is that for *SOME* people finasteride *MAY* cause problems.... 
The risk is extremely low as it's been proven through many many studies with thousands of participants. Do you discredit THOSE studies?

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## NotBelievingIt

But I'm willing to bet *everyone* experiences side effects.  To what degree is the ultimate question.  You can't just diminish a potent male sex hormone (DHT) and diminish other 5AR conversions and think everything will be fine.

If your (sex) hormone levels allow you to slide without noticable sides - awesome, more power to you brotha - FIST PUMP.

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## 2020

> but i'm willing to bet *everyone* experiences side effects.  To what degree is the ultimate question.  You can't just diminish a potent male sex hormone (dht) and diminish other 5ar conversions and think everything will be fine.
> 
> If your (sex) hormone levels allow you to slide without noticable sides - awesome, more power to you brotha - fist pump.


 but what about the ****ing studies!? How come so few people reported side effects??? You think most of the subjects lied and kept quiet about it??

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## NotBelievingIt

> but what about the ****ing studies!? How come so few people reported side effects??? You think most of the subjects lied and kept quiet about it??


 No, they didn't lie.  As I said, its ultimately a question of how much of an effect, in addition to realistic correlations.

If you can't get it up quite as frequently 5 years from now or feel less urges, is that simply because of the change in your hormones naturally or is it the Fin?  You can't answer that.  You simply can't, its just not possible.  Its even less possible the older a guy gets.  Would going off Fin make a difference?  If it didn't, is that because its a permanent side effect or your hormones?  Oh dear god you can't answer that either.

In other words - until we truly understand *why* the side effects occur, they should not be ignored or thought of lightly.

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## khan

Bob13,
You make it sound like armageddon, please rest assure there are thousands and thousands of people that take Finasteride, and will continue to do so without any sides. There are no alarms going off, except maybe in your head. 

StressedToTheBald means well, but he isn't adding any new information to this topic. Everything he is saying has been quoted and discussed a million times before. I suggest you do a simple search, specially since it appears you're simply looking for a validation to quit. You can find plenty of that all over the internet.

No one can and will tell you what the right decision is. But given that you have been on the drug for years, I would suggest you use your own experience, and not listen to anyone that has never tried Finasteride and is simply repeating stuff he has heard on other anonymous forums.

As to one of your questions, well, if you keep stressing out and freakin out like this, than your life will become depressing. And when that happens please don't blame Finasteride.



> What the hell is going on.
> Merck has shut down their website. Warnings are becoming alarming.
> 
> Should I quit . Should I stay on Propecia.
> 
> Is this drug gonna make my life depressing.
> 
> To tell you the truth I'm scared after taking the drug for 5 or 6 years.
> 
> ...

----------


## seattle30

> All that those studies say is that for *SOME* people finasteride *MAY* cause problems.... 
> The risk is extremely low as it's been proven through many many studies with thousands of participants. Do you discredit THOSE studies?


 It actually says in the Traish study that in some patients the side effects from 5a-reductase inhibitors are persistent. For people thinking about going on propecia they should definitely read through the papers by Dr Irwig and Traish before they make up their mind with regard to whether or not they go on propecia.  This would probably be a lot better than taking advise from a consumer advocate who says that its still considered an extremely safe drug.

At the end of the day though you cant blame someone for going on  propecia even though it is dangerous because hair loss sucks.

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## StressedToTheBald

> It actually says in the Traish study that in some patients the side effects from 5a-reductase inhibitors are persistent. For people thinking about going on propecia they should definitely read through the papers by Dr Irwig and Traish before they make up their mind with regard to whether or not they go on propecia.  This would probably be a lot better than taking advise from a consumer advocate who says that its still considered an extremely safe drug.
> 
> At the end of the day though you cant blame someone for going on  propecia even though it is dangerous because hair loss sucks.


 They indeed say so. Both Dr. Irwig and Dr. Traish point out to permanent ED and also link propecia to previously less known side effects such as depression and cancer.

And very good point as well - regarding whom to trust. These doctors actually come with undeniable reputation, unlike propecia promoters who still try to portray this drug as beeing 'generally safe'. The reputation of these studies is so significant that it has triggered first class lawsuits as well ! Dr. Irwig's percentages of side effects are also outstandingly higher than ones presented by the manufacturer. Take care and beware !

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## KeepTheHair

Almost two years of 100&#37; maintenance and 0% side effects for me.


Same for other people I know personally who are taking it.

I don't know anyone online or offline that has taken it and gotten permanent side effects. I do know 1 person that got sides and stopped and everything was fine.

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## khan

Dr. Irwig's study uses a sample, which is based on users of a forum based solely for the purpose of helping people suffering from Finasteride.
This hardly constitutes as a random sample, even from the bare minimum standards.

His study is based on telephonic conservesation, there was no physical exam done, and absolutely no way to verify medical history or other medication that might have been used while on finasteride. There was no control group either.

The study is more of a survey, based on people that were on a certain website for the specific purpose of seeking help.
Its definitely a step in the right direction, finasteride sufferers definitely deserve more attention from the medical community, but the survey should be a road to further research. It should not be used to spam every thread, It can hardly be considered conclusive but definitely a step in the right direction.

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## born

> They indeed say so. Both Dr. Irwig and Dr. Traish point out to permanent ED and also link propecia to previously less known side effects such as depression and cancer.
> 
> And very good point as well - regarding whom to trust. These doctors actually come with undeniable reputation, unlike propecia promoters who still try to portray this drug as beeing 'generally safe'. The reputation of these studies is so significant that it has triggered first class lawsuits as well ! Dr. Irwig's percentages of side effects are also outstandingly higher than ones presented by the manufacturer. Take care and beware !


 even cotsarelis prescribes it for people who have aga and considers it safe.Not to mention other names like rassman or bernstein.

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## NotBelievingIt

The length of time that side effects (including hair loss prevention) are seen is likely going to come down to something related to how 5AR is being binded to by Finasteride and how long term exposure to that is effecting all hormonal conversions that 5ar does and are important to the body.  Also probably the levels of 5ar production in a person.

I wouldn't be surprised if it causes a mutation of sorts where the receptors are "permanently" fused or something - causing all 5ar conversions to become disrupted.

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## StressedToTheBald

> Dr. Irwig's study uses a sample, which is based on users of a forum based solely for the purpose of helping people suffering from Finasteride.
> This hardly constitutes as a random sample, even from the bare minimum standards.


 Believe that, or believe this:

As my study shows, there are very real sexual health issues that are affecting a population of previously healthy men ranging in age from 21 to 46 years old who took Propecia, says George Washington University Professor Michael S. Irwig, M.D.

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## 2020

> Believe that, or believe this:
> 
> As my study shows, there are very real sexual health issues that are affecting a population of previously healthy men ranging in age from 21 to 46 years old who took Propecia, says George Washington University Professor Michael S. Irwig, M.D.


 numbers numbers numbers... where is that study?

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## StressedToTheBald

> even cotsarelis prescribes it for people who have aga and considers it safe.Not to mention other names like rassman or bernstein.


 Over the years, I have prescribed Propecia to my patients and still do  I absolutely had no idea of its serious side effects and I do try to keep up with all the latest medical news, says general practitioner Kenneth Kochmann, M.D. Had I known, I would have never prescribed it in the first place, says Dr. Kochmann whose practice is located in Lutherville, Md.

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## StressedToTheBald

> The length of time that side effects (including hair loss prevention) are seen is likely going to come down to something related to how 5AR is being binded to by Finasteride and how long term exposure to that is effecting all hormonal conversions that 5ar does and are important to the body.  Also probably the levels of 5ar production in a person.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if it causes a mutation of sorts where the receptors are "permanently" fused or something - causing all 5ar conversions to become disrupted.


 What makes propecia dangerous I believe is now what its known that this drug does, but what is unknown. Unlike natural DHT inhibitors, this drug is hardcore chemistry, I believe the mechanisms of action are different and the overall impact is either too high or too wide in the sense that it affects other areas as well, areas it shouldn't mess with. Dr. Irwig says that what makes propecia dangerous is the fact that its responsible for changes in the brain as well !

"What is known is that unlike the vast majority of drugs, whose side effects cease when you stop taking them, Dr. Irwig explains that “finasteride is different because it can actually change the brain’s chemistry. The enzyme 5 alpha reductase is present in many areas of the brain. It is rare for a drug to have the capability to persistently change the brain's chemistry.”"

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## 2020

> What makes propecia dangerous I believe is now what its known that this drug does, but what is unknown. Unlike natural DHT inhibitors, this drug is hardcore chemistry, I believe the mechanisms of action are different and the overall impact is either too high or too wide in the sense that it affects other areas as well, areas it shouldn't mess with. Dr. Irwig says that what makes propecia dangerous is the fact that its responsible for changes in the brain as well !
> 
> "What is known is that unlike the vast majority of drugs, whose side effects cease when you stop taking them, Dr. Irwig explains that finasteride is different because it can actually change the brains chemistry. The enzyme 5 alpha reductase is present in many areas of the brain. It is rare for a drug to have the capability to persistently change the brain's chemistry."


 then how do you explain the results of SO MANY LONG TERM STUDIES on finasteride??

This is not a NEW DRUG!!! It's been around forever and we already knows its risks.

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## NotBelievingIt

> then how do you explain the results of SO MANY LONG TERM STUDIES on finasteride??
> 
> This is not a NEW DRUG!!! It's been around forever and we already knows its risks.


 Please link for us all of these long term studies.  You must be armed with the URLs since you keep talking about there having been multiple.

AFAIK theres only been one, but thats simply because I havn't tried terribly hard to find them and when I google for it, all I find is the 2001 release of Mercks 5 year study that started with just over 1500 people and ended with just under 300.

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## 2020

> Please link for us all of these long term studies.  You must be armed with the URLs since you keep talking about there having been multiple.


 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?t...eride%201%20mg

longest one is 10 years.

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## Winston

Here's a very straightforward study of 5 times the dose of Propecia. Lets look a hardcore facts:

From a 4 year Proscar study. 

Note that this is a true clinical study, not a poll taken within a group of men who had already suffered with either real or psychosomatic sexual side effects from the drug. I think it should aslo be mentioned that most if not all members of sites like Propeciahelp have reported their side effects within the first year of taking the drug.

http://www.drugs.com/pro/proscar.html

4-Year Placebo-Controlled Study (PLESS)

In PLESS, 1524 patients treated with Proscar and 1516 patients treated with placebo were evaluated for safety over a period of 4 years. The most frequently reported adverse reactions were related to sexual function. 3.7% (57 patients) treated with Proscar and* 2.1% (32 patients) treated with placebo discontinued therapy as a result of adverse reactions related to sexual function, which are the most frequently reported adverse reactions.
*

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## 25 going on 65

> then how do you explain the results of SO MANY LONG TERM STUDIES on finasteride??
> 
> This is not a NEW DRUG!!! It's been around forever and we already knows its risks.


 But that was before Dr. Irwig sent the Arizona Sexual Experience questionnaire to 71 members of PropeciaHelp.com. *NOW EVERYTHING WE KNEW IS WRONG.*  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
 :Wink:

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## NotBelievingIt

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?t...eride%201%20mg
> 
> longest one is 10 years.


 Thanks.

However;
10 year study



> 118 men, between 20 and 61 years, with AGA receiving finasteride (1 mg/day), were enrolled in this uncontrolled study


 Insignificant number of people and uncontrolled.  Meaning the respondants may have been doing more then simply finasteride that affected results one way or the other, it is not stated and is not possible since it was not controlled.




> Side effects were referred by 6% of the patients


 Thats kind of high, but also does not say which group reported the sides, so its practically meaningless.  Was it the older or younger?  If it was the older does it mean anything?  Men naturally lose libido and all that jazz as they age unless they keep their testosterone levels going and keep E levels at bay.

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## KeepTheHair

biking, alcohol, smoking other drugs and lifestyle choices... and even genetics. How would someone be sure that it is finasteride causing symptoms?

Judging by those studies and that hair transplant surgeons don't report permanent sides... it's very hard to believe it's a very common occurrence.

Then again... if it's 1/100 000 people  and u have millions and millions from all around the world on the drug that's a lot of people... who knows what to think.

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## KeepTheHair

1/10 people have ED.

http://www.mmhc-online.com/articles/impotency.html

An Australian survey of more than 8,300 men aged 16-59 shows that erectile dysfunction was *40% more likely to occur among men who smoked more than 20 daily cigarettes*, compared with nonsmokers. Also, erectile dysfunction was *24% more likely to occur among men who smoked up to 20 cigarettes per day*, compared with nonsmokers.

...researchers say their study shows "strong evidence" of a link between smoking and erectile dysfunction...

http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditio...le-dysfunction

10% becomes 14%

and 10% becomes 12.4%

Now, consider a huge % of people smoke. Your going to have millions of people with erectile dysfunction with smoking as a direct cause.

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## StressedToTheBald

but all these theories fall down when confronted with fact that the study included previouly perfectly healthy guys in their prime age, between 21 and 46..

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## 2020

> but all these theories fall down when confronted with fact that the study included previouly perfectly healthy guys in their prime age, between 21 and 46..


 what theories.... these are actual SCIENTIFIC STUDIES. Propecia is safe and millions of people will continue to use it without any problems for a long time.
Stop wasting your time proving otherwise.

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## KeepTheHair

> but all these theories fall down when confronted with fact that the study included previouly perfectly healthy guys in their prime age, between 21 and 46..


 U don't make any sense dude...  :Confused: 


Just be quiet.

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## seattle30

Do the people on this forum who think that finasteride is extremely safe believe that people suffering from sexual health problems even after cessation of SSRI's believe that these individuals are suffering from something psychosomatic or some other problem as well.  Do you think that this is not something iatrogenic?

Also, if you read through the entire Irwig study he does say within it that the study has multiple limitations.  The study was just kind of the initial step at his attempt at trying to study the patient popluation for those who have pfs.  Dr Irwig is an assistant professor of medicine at George Washington University and the Institutional Review Board at George Washington approved the study.  Those of us with pfs are very greatful that he has taken the time to do this.  Within the study it says that "the true incidence of these events(persistent sexual dysfunction) is unknown."  It also disucsses some potential biological mechanisms which may be causing this.  And like Dr Traish has said, the serious side effects that have been caused by finasteride in a subset of individuals is a subject of research

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## sausage

> god damnit... all these propecia threads are starting to make me think that my pills are fake because I have no side effects whatsover.


 Have you tried having kids since you started taking Propecia?

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## StressedToTheBald

> Have you tried having kids since you started taking Propecia?


 Exactly ! Excellent point.
And there is science behind it as well..

_Finasteride-induced secondary infertility associated with sperm DNA damage.
Tu HY, Zini A.

Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To report a case of low-dose finasteride-induced secondary infertility with associated elevated sperm DNA fragmentation index (DFI) and otherwise normal semen parameters.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University hospital.

PATIENT(S): A 48-year-old man on low-dose finasteride and his 37-year-old wife with normal menses and normal gynecologic exam.

INTERVENTION(S): Determination of sperm DFI and discontinuation of low-dose finasteride.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Sperm DFI.

RESULT(S): The sperm DFI done a year earlier was 30%. This value was unchanged when repeated 2 months later. The patient was advised to stop finasteride. Three months after discontinuing the finasteride, the DFI decreased to 21% and subsequent DFI after another 3 months improved to 16.5%. To date, there is still no documented full-term pregnancy or live birth.

CONCLUSION(S): The significant reduction in DFI within 3 months of finasteride cessation and continued improvement suggests a causal link between finasteride and sperm DNA damage. We hypothesize that low-dose finasteride may exert a negative influence on sperm DNA integrity, resulting in increased pregnancy losses. We suggest that in infertile men using finasteride, sperm DFI should be measured in addition to semen parameters, and a trial of discontinuation of finasteride may be warranted.
_

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## 2020

uhm what point is that? I'm 21 and I don't plan to have kids anytime soon anyways...

Btw, this logic that Propecia is somehow responsible for EVERYTHING that happens while you take it is dumb...
If you take Advil once a week for 15 years and you develop ED, do you blame Advil for that??

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## khan

> uhm what point is that? I'm 21 and I don't plan to have kids anytime soon anyways...
> 
> Btw, this logic that Propecia is somehow responsible for EVERYTHING that happens while you take it is dumb...
> If you take Advil once a week for 15 years and you develop ED, do you blame Advil for that??


 I think he is trying to say if you take Finasteride your sperm loose the ability to fertilize permanantely and you can never have kids.

Why is it every side effect of Finasteride is always claimed to be permanant. The medicine has only been on the market sine 1997, so how can anyone know if anything it may cause is permanant?

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## blakes33

Very good thread and very pertinent to me and my situation right now.

The truth though, is that the verdict is still out.  I think we will have better answers to this debate within the next couple of years   I can see points from both sides of the argument.  However, here is my prediction:  

I called Merck and I wrote an e-mail and a follow-up phone call to the FDA.  Just my opinin that one of two things are going to happen:  One - Merck will update side-effects with a massive increase in it's WARNING section of side-effects including permanent sexual dysfunction (probably the reason they have shut down their site).  Second option - the FDA will pull the drug from the market (I did not have any indication this would happen but I WAS told from the FDA that "yes, we know about the new studies and reports from the use of propecia and it is under review").

I believe that where there is massive amounts of smoke, there is usually a fire.  How big is the fire??  That nobody knows yet.  We can debate all day whether or not propecia causes permanent side-effects and these terrible things that are being reported.  But what is concerning to me and What we CANNOT debate is that there are endocrinologists, urologists, and top university professors who BELIEVE that it does.

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## StressedToTheBald

> Very good thread and very pertinent to me and my situation right now.
> 
> The truth though, is that the verdict is still out.  I think we will have better answers to this debate within the next couple of years   I can see points from both sides of the argument.  However, here is my prediction:  
> 
> I called Merck and I wrote an e-mail and a follow-up phone call to the FDA.  Just my opinin that one of two things are going to happen:  One - Merck will update side-effects with a massive increase in it's WARNING section of side-effects including permanent sexual dysfunction (probably the reason they have shut down their site).  Second option - the FDA will pull the drug from the market (I did not have any indication this would happen but I WAS told from the FDA that "yes, we know about the new studies and reports from the use of propecia and it is under review").
> 
> I believe that where there is massive amounts of smoke, there is usually a fire.  How big is the fire??  That nobody knows yet.  We can debate all day whether or not propecia causes permanent side-effects and these terrible things that are being reported.  But what is concerning to me and What we CANNOT debate is that there are endocrinologists, urologists, and top university professors who BELIEVE that it does.


 All well said blakes33, I agree.

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## NotBelievingIt

Permanancy is going to be tough to qualify.

"Prolonged" or "Long Term Persistence" may become the phrase.

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## 2020

> One - Merck will update side-effects with a massive increase in it's WARNING section of side-effects including permanent sexual dysfunction (probably the reason they have shut down their site).


 none of the scientific studies in the past 20+ years have been able to prove that...




> Second option - the FDA will pull the drug from the market


 that will never happen, because there is absolutely no reason to do that.
Millions of people are happy with the results.

Feburary 19, 2012. Remember this post because 5 years from now, Propecia still be around.

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## khan

There is one thing I don't understand.

There are so many people in their later/mid 40s that take this drug at the 5mg level. I know my dad did for his prostate, for about a 2 years (at age 48 if I remember correctly). So why isn't there a forum called proscarhelp.com, surely these guys taking the 5mg should have their life ""completely crippled"", and by that I mean thoughs of suicide, complete penis vanishing...and on....and on...

But I don't even recall ever reading anyone from their side complaining, even if there are these people on the internet, they aren't even 1/10000 of the number of people having sides in 1mg. The age logic doesn't explain it, since there are plenty of older guys that take 1mg for hairloss and complain of sides, and are just as vocal, but what about the older guys taking 5mg everyday. 

Some of the stories I read on Propecia scare me so much, and I honestly wouldn't wish my worse enemy to go throught even one millionath of that. So I can only imagine what the 5mg people would have to go through? But why is there no forum called proscarhelp.com?

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## 2020

^ old people don't use internet.... if they get side effects they complain directly to their doctor.

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## khan

> ^ old people don't use internet.... if they get side effects they complain directly to their doctor.


 So then doctors should be bombarded with complains from the 5mg people. I mean surely the sides should be cripling at the 5mg dose.
I have spoke to atleast 2 doctors that have prescribed Proscar to 100s of patients and claim not a single on them reported problems. 
And on that note there are several older people (40+) on the internet that complain about the 1mg Finasteride, so sexual function is just as important to them as it obviously should be.

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## NotBelievingIt

Prostate issues present as the same side effects people report after taking Propecia.

So the fact that there have been no reports of side effects from the 5mg crowd is no surprise whatsoever.

In addition, while there are younger men taking Proscar, the vast majority are older and less likely to have an active sex drive, so any further decrease is next to impossible to tie directly to the addition of Proscar.

However, healthy, sexually active younger men are far more likely to note the changes and know something new is happening that is unexpected.

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## 2020

> So then doctors should be bombarded with complains from the 5mg people. I mean surely the sides should be cripling at the 5mg dose.


 there is pretty much no difference between 1mg and 5mg... both doses inhibit about the same about of DHT

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## StressedToTheBald

And its perfectly young healthy people in Washington study as well.. only after starting propecia was their health ruined. Its a health hazard, and either FDA is going to ban it officially or bring risk and warning labels to reality - adding permanent erectile dysfunction, prostate cancer etc.. At least people will know what they're really gambling with and Merck will end up selling nothing.

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## 2020

> And its perfectly young healthy people in Washington study as well.. only after starting propecia was their health ruined. Its a health hazard, and either FDA is going to ban it officially or bring risk and warning labels to reality - adding permanent erectile dysfunction, prostate cancer etc.. At least people will know what they're really gambling with and Merck will end up selling nothing.


 ffs that was not a proper study!!!!

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## blakes33

> none of the scientific studies in the past 20+ years have been able to prove that...
> 
> 
> 
> that will never happen, because there is absolutely no reason to do that.
> Millions of people are happy with the results.
> 
> Feburary 19, 2012. Remember this post because 5 years from now, Propecia still be around.


 I will ask YOU to remeber my predictions, because the drug being pulled off the market is only one of two possibilities.  IF propecia is still on the market in 5 years - my prediction will be right on cue, because there is no doubt whatsoever that the warning will have been updated significantly, to include the possibilty of irreversible side- effects. 

The updated warning and/or withdrawal from the market will probably closely coincide with the class action lawsuit.  Merck will no doubt pay out millions to those affected.  The jury will decide this based on a preponderence of the evidence (patient history, doctor and expert testimony, clinical practice over many years, etc) rather than only "scientific studies" or lack thereof.

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## 2020

> IF propecia is still on the market in 5 years - my prediction will be right on cue,


 you're right, PROPECIA will be off the market in about a year. Its patent is about to expire and all that we'll be left with is Finasteride. In that way you are right.




> The updated warning and/or withdrawal from the market will probably closely coincide with the class action lawsuit.  Merck will no doubt pay out millions to those affected.  The jury will decide this based on a preponderence of the evidence (patient history, doctor and expert testimony, clinical practice over many years, etc) rather than only "scientific studies" or lack thereof.


 there is no proof of that. Two people have died from Rogaine and it has been established that it happened due to a pre-existing condition.... Is it possible that people who report those horrible side effects from Propecia had a pre-existing condition too? Surely it makes no sense why SO MANY people take this drug without ANY SIDE EFFECTS, and yet a small portion of people do get side effects. Why is that? Why those few people have trouble with fin? Think about it.

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## NotBelievingIt

Pre-existing condition that was unavoidable due to genetics.  That kinda stinks.

In other words, my view is that those with side effects and / or persistent side effects will be found to have low tolerances to the inhibition of DHT and/or 5AR.

Something that hormone tests should have been able to find as treatment progressed.

I'm contemplating going back on Fin, but only with routine hormone panels...

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