# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  KÉRATENE Alphactive ® Retard

## yeahyeahyeah

Below is the text from the KERATENE website



K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive Retard is a systemic 5-ard enzyme catalyze inhibitor, formulated specifically to suppress the formation of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and delay the effects of this androgen on the genetically-marked hair follicles, sensitive to its chemical signals. K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive Retard provides an appropriate control mechanism for the progressive thinning of hair caused by hormonal and genetic factors, with potential applications in the trichologic field for the for the maintenance of the existing hair density, in both pre- and postoperative cases. 
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive Retard depresses the total DHT level by suppressing the conversion of the androgen Testosterone (T) to DHT through the adhesion to the 5aRD enzyme by obstructing the transfer of hydrogen atoms to the Testosterone (T) molecule and preventing its chemical reduction.
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive Retard reduces the DHT levels with a factor of 2, 3 or 4, depending on the total DHT level. K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive Retard does not interfere with the endocrine production of hormones or with the production of the 5aRD enzyme and its inhibition mechanism does not rely on the use of antagonistic exogenic hormone disruptors or on the use of xenoestradiols or estrogens. Consult your doctor before using this product or any other medical anti-DHT treatments. Read the product description carefully before use. K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive Retard is not a cure for any registered medical disease. Consult your doctor for professional medical advice.

K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive Retard, in combination with topical K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive therapies, is suitable as sustaining therapy for the preservation of the trichological density for clinical cases of NW I, NW II, NW III (vertex only), Ludwig I and Ludwig II. This product is not effective in cases of alopecia totalis, alopecia universalis and alopecia androgenetica NW4, NW5 and NW6 as well as Ludwig 3 where total loss of hair density has already occured


- Lowers dht by 25&#37;
- Is fin without side effects/same benefits
- Vouched by pro hair clinic

http://www.hairlossexperiences.com/v...278&forum_id=6

Thoughts?

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## Tracy C

> Thoughts?


 Digesting and looking for legitimate info from outside of hair loss support forums or the company website.  None is readily available yet - but will keep looking.






> - Is fin without side effects/same benefits...


 There is no such thing as a medication that has no side effects.  Is is more than likely that any medication that can achieve the same benefits as Finasteride will have a similar side effect profile as Finasteride.  Adequate and appropriate studies need to be performed in order to attempt to substantiate this rather lofty claim.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Digesting and looking for legitimate info from outside of hair loss support forums or the company website.  None is readily available yet - but will keep looking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as a medication that has no side effects.  Is is more than likely that any medication that can achieve the same benefits as Finasteride will have a similar side effect profile as Finasteride.  Adequate and appropriate studies need to be performed in order to attempt to substantiate this rather lofty claim.


 
Well, from what I have read it works the same way but as of yet, not many have got sides due to it surpressing 25% DHT and not 90% (like fin does)

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## yeahyeahyeah

Hi all,

The company Keratene is not an unknown among hair transplant surgeons and institutes. We have been using their FUE after care treatment kits for a long time.

In September Keratene Presented their new product, Keratene Retard, to the attendees at the annual FUE Europe meeting (this time in Berlin).

They provided solid scientific proof that Keratene Retard is able to reduce DHT blood values. If you are going to present your product that claims DHT lowering properties you better have good solid evidence if you are presenting in front of dermatologist and doctors.
Prohairclinic offered to perform a small additional test to backup the Keratene Retard clinical data.
We teamed up with the university of Gent to measure before and after DHT blood levels. 
At half the prescribed dose of 1 capsule a day there was an average lowering of 25 &#37; of DHT levels for male subjects.
There were no changes in DHT levels (slightly up) for female subjects.

*More important : there were no side effects reported by any of the candidates. We have yet to receive any side effects from patients that have been taken the product for about 2.5 months now.

I believe this products is a good alternative for those who are unwilling to take medication (Keratene Retard comes as a dietary supplement) or do not want to risk side effects that are associated with Finasteride.*

Prohairclinic is an official partner of Keratene and all anti hair loss products are being offered via our webshop: 
http://www.prohairclinic.be/

Bart

Some more info.

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## yeahyeahyeah

Some more:




> From our experience most people that have sides from finasteride find out within the first couple of weeks.
> 
> We have not seen this in any of the test persons. No sides where reported in the recent second study nor in the first study over a year ago. 
> 
> In fact we have not heared of any side effect to date, not from people using it nor from any of the persons that where involved with the tests.


 


> We have recontacted all of the test patients and some of the people who have bought the product >3 months ago.
> 
> Again, nobody reported any side effects, not even the people that had sides when using finasteride.
> 
> Of the persons that have been on Keratene for longer then 3 months we had great response. All will continue to use the product, some of then feel that hair quality has already improved. This seems to be resembling response we get from finasteride users.
> 
> This will be interesting to follow as we expect an even better response in another 6 months.
> 
> B


 http://www.hairlossexperiences.com/v...?post_id=29986

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## Tracy C

None of these are outside of parties that have a vested interest in selling the product.  This detail contaminates the information they are providing with excessive bias.  Will continue to look for more reliable and more credible un-biased information.  What I see thus far cannot legitimately substantiate their very lofty claim.

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## JimmyJones12

This sounds too good to be true??

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## HARIRI

Yeah Yeah Yeah, This sounds very interesting. I may use it as a replacement of my saw palmetto supplement (HAIROMEGA DHT). At least it may do something for me as I really cant use FIN because of the sides I got. Thanks for sharing. I will try to look at it more deeply.

Here are more info about it:-

*Vegan-friendly* : this version is not suitable for Vegan consumers. The gelatin capsules contain animal ingredients obtained according to Kosher / Halal standards
*Therapeutical compatibility* : not compatible with BPH products based on soy or saw palmetto, Finasteride, Dutasteride, Flutamide of Bicalutamide. Special precautions for users of any ACE (angiotensin-converting-enzyme) inhibitors: consult your doctor before using this product
*Side effects* : read the enclosed product specific instructions or the online product page. Not suitable during pregnancy or lactation
*Sale regime* : dietary supplement - OTC
*Concentration grade* : total DHT reduction factor 2 - 3 - 4
*Composition* : complex sterols under the DRD of 3gr/24h, plant extracts, saccharose
*Active system* : 5-ard enzyme catalyse inhibitor
*Volume* : 60 capsules

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## HARIRI

Here are more information about it from Pro Hair Clinic which I believe endorses the product officially.

*K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard*

Male hair loss is often due to the negative impact of high DHT (Dihydrotestosterone) levels which have a negative influence on the hair  roots. This phenomenon is already known for a long time and  is often validated by medical research.  There exists already certain medication which can decrease the DHT values, however those medicines can lead in some cases to certain unwanted side effects.

ATTENTION: DO NOT COMBINE K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard with any of the older DHT decreasing medicines!

K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard  is a NEW (2012) product which is developed with the latest knowledge and technology. Hence, this product has no side effects and is available without a prescription. K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard is categorized as a “ nutritional supplement” this means that it can be freely sold in the EU. In addition, K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard  has all the necessary authorisations needed for sales in the EU.

K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard got its first introduction during the FUE Europe meeting in Berlin 2012. The technical data as well as the results (blood value DHT levels before and after) were presented to all hair transplantation doctors who were present. 

Technical information:
formulated specifically to aid in the delaying of the effects of the androgen hormone Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) on the
genetically-marked hair follicles. K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard provides a better control of the progressive thinning of
hair caused by hormonal and genetic factors, and it is recommended for the maintenance of the existing hair density,
in both pre- and postoperative cases. K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard is sold in some countries under the commercial
name of KE234&#174; or Keratenosynergist&#174;.
Use K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard as directed by your doctor or pharmacist.

COMPOSITION:
Sterol complex, phytoextracts, saccharose.
Contains trace amounts of campe- stigma- brassicasterol, triterpenoid esters, 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran and
5-hydroxytryptamine. The formula is free of xenoestradiols and is suitable for both adult men and women.
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard is available in packaging of 30 or 60 gelatine capsules.
Substance regimen: dietary supplement

FUNCTION

K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard depresses the total level of DHT by suppressing the conversion of the androgen Testosterone
(T) to DHT through the adhesion to the 5aRD enzyme by obstructing the transfer of hydrogen atoms to the Testosterone
(T) molecule and preventing its chemical reduction.
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard reduces the DHT levels with a factor of 2, 3 or 4, depending on the total DHT level.
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard does not interfere with the endocrine production of hormones or with the production of
the 5aRD enzyme.
The therapy with K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard reaches optimal effects after 7 consecutive days of administration.
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard has low bioaccumulation and its effects dissipate after 3 to 7 consecutive days after the
interruption of the therapy. When the therapy is completely terminated, the DHT level will increase and reach its previous
nominal value, prior to the administration.

ADMINISTRATION
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard is administered orally.

Pre- and post-operative schedule, when the DHL level is known:
1) DHT level between 849 and 1673 pg/ml, 1 capsule per day,
in the morning between 8 and 9;
2) DHT level higher than 1673 pg/ml, 2 capsules per day, one capsule in the morning
between 8 and 9 and one capsule in the evening between 10 and 11.
Pre- and post-operative schedule, when the DHL level is not known:
Men older than 20 with NW 1 – 2: 1 capsule per day, in the morning between 8 and 9am.
Men older than 20 and younger than 35 with NW 3 – 4: 2 capsules per day, one capsule
in the morning between 8 and 9am and one capsule in the evening between 10 and 11pm.
Men older than 35 with NW 3 – 4: 2 capsules per day, one capsule
in the morning between 8 and 9am and one capsule in the evening between 10 and 11pm.
Women older than 25 with LUDWIG 1 – 3: 1 capsule per day, in the morning, between 8 and 9am.
Consult your dermatologist doctor or a specialist trichologist to establish the correct dosage for your specific situation.

SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard is not suitable for pregnant women, during pregnancy or during the lactation period.
K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard is not compatible with any other therapy based on synthetic 5aRD inhibitors or DHT
suppressors from the –steride group or with Flutamide / Bicalutamide. The combination of these therapies should be avoided
at all times. Because K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard reduces the level of DHT androgen in the body, it may affect the
performance of professional athletes. It is recommended to interrupt the administration of K&#201;RATENE&#174; alphactive retard
with at least 10 days before a competition. Consult your team physician or endocrinologist for professional medical advice
on the implications of low DHT and your athletic performance.

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## HARIRI

Yeah Yeah Yeah,

*And yesterday Bart from Pro Hair Clinic said*

"We had a lot of people requesting more tablets packaging to cover at least 3 months. The current version is 60 tablet, and it is recommended to use 1 tablet in the morning and 1 in the evening.

As of today the Keratene Retard Dht lowering tablets are available in 180 tablet version. Therefore the costs have been reduced as well, benefiting all that are interested in lowering DHT long term.
We ship virtually anywhere in the world : http://www.prohairclinic.be/

Bart"

*That is what I could find so far. I will dig more into it...:-)*

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## GuyFromUK

If we are going to test whether this product really reduces DHT levels or not then would anyone on the forum be prepared to do a test.

I.e. if there is a forum member who is not taking finasteride would they be prepared to do a blood test for their DHT levels, then take one of these capsules and then do a further DHT the next day test to see if their DHT levels have been reduced?

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## Conpecia

this sounds waaay too good to be true. You're telling me a side-free Fin substitute exists that's just come outta nowhere? Can't believe that at the moment, especially when the only documentation comes from the folks selling it. I generally go the opposite way of Tracy C but I totally agree with her here; we need independent verification.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> If we are going to test whether this product really reduces DHT levels or not then would anyone on the forum be prepared to do a test.
> 
> I.e. if there is a forum member who is not taking finasteride would they be prepared to do a blood test for their DHT levels, then take one of these capsules and then do a further DHT the next day test to see if their DHT levels have been reduced?


 I agree.

We need people to test this out.

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## Jcm800

Deffo, who's going to take one for the team?!

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Deffo, who's going to take one for the team?!


 I have a feeling that this product is legit tbh.

IT makes a lot of sense that you are less likely to get sides simply because 25&#37; of DHT is inhibited as opposed to 90% like on fin.

But, I am maintaining at the moment, so not worth taking. Unless I know for sure that it works.

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## clandestine

Could be great. Pretty big claim with the whole no side effects thing.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Could be great. Pretty big claim with the whole no side effects thing.


 http://www.*****************/interact...-with-no-sides

************

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## yeahyeahyeah

Hairsite:

http://www.*************/hair-loss/b...ategory-5.html




> s I follow a post made by Dr. Arvind about a new DHT lowering product (Keratene Retard) I have contacted some other Drs. to find out more. 
> I contacted those that attended the FUE Europe Meeting where Keratene Retard was introduced.
> 
> Here are the results so far-
> Dr. Arvind : good product, uses it in his practice.
> Dr. Lupanzula : are familiar with the product, just started to offer.
> Dr. Peter Hajduk (ex Gho Praag) : starting to offer to their patients as of november 2012. Also noted 'so far their clinical studies look very good'.
> Dr. Heitmann : convinced it will work, also offers it.
> Prohairclinic : started offering to our patient, solid clinical study and presentation. They are also conducting their own 'clinical' test at present.
> ...


 What the **** - it seems like all these HT surgeons have adopted it, but no one here has heard of it. Until now.

Review from hairsite:




> Hi garmin333
> I was one of the guys that took part in their trials. I signed up from their site. My trial went O.K., no complaints whatsoever for 11 months now (going strong –knock on wood 3x) also no sides. In the beginning they did ask if I don’t do athletic activities and sport stuff and that it may be possible to get tired after a while but I had no such problems. They took blood several times up to a point that I got fed up getting drained dry by those vampires. They took my blood 11 times!! Eventually I got the results by post and dht went from 2140 (before) to 620 (after two weeks). From the repeat tests it looked like after a few months it was at pretty much the same level of around 600. My next blood test is due in a month or so. I swear it's the last needle I take up my veins. Unfortunately I signed to papers with them and I have to go thru with this but I don't recommend so many blood test to anyone. They kept telling me it's essential to measure blood sh*t and crap to see how stuff evolves and what is stabilized and more medical scifi crap about hormones enzyme chemicals and genes that none understands but I had enough of needles! For the moment I feel great and I have zero loss of sex drive, hair loss just stopped, it's O.K. (I would like to say amazing compared to what I was losing before). No bad feelings for those guys they were very professional and compassionate but I'll certainly stay away from any other trials that involve needles. Keep you posted soon about the next results. 
> Greetz D

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## yeahyeahyeah

More on hairsite, Dr Arvind seems to be a big fan:

http://www.*************/hair-loss/f...id-110587.html




> Dear Balki and ven,
> 
> No, I am not paid to post for keratene or propecia or minoxidil or any other hairloss medications.
> I spent years studying the effects of various hairloss medications out of curiosity as well as on patients' requests. Only when I found something working for my patients, I decided to share my experiences with others as I have done over the years.
> 
> As for "conflict of interest", the only conflict of interest for a hair transplant doctor would be any medication slowing down/stopping hairloss and thus doing away with the need for hair transplants.  
> 
> Lets not get into conspiracy theories. 
> Regards,
> ...

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## Conpecia

two excellent finds yeahyeahyeah, nice work. the fact that independent doctors are endorsing it definitely goes a long way in making this seem more legitimate. if this stops my hairloss right where it is i will only need a small fue and then I'll never think about it again. still far too early for such wishful thinking but we're on the right track...

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## clandestine

It was discussed here already, but the thread didn't garner much attention. It was called 'New Fin? - Without sides" In the Hair Loss Treatment section of the forum.

Regardless, thanks for posting a new thread. I feel this deserves more attention.

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## HARIRI

Clandestine you are right, it deserves more attention especially for people like me who suffers sides from Fin. 

Guys, I think I will volunteer for this treatment. I'm going for 12 days vacation to Asia and will be back on Feb 7. By then I will order it from (www.prohairclinic.be) and will try it instead of my HairOmega DHT Herbal supplement (Saw Palemtto ++). In my case it really worth it as I really suffer from sexual sides from Fin. I really pray that it will work and slow my progression which is not that fast especially im using Rogaine 5&#37; plus HairOmega DHT. Yeah Yeah Yeah, thanks from bringing this product to my attention.

Fingers crossed.

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## clandestine

Exciting, keep us updated.

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## Cob984

guys, this is surely not a side affect free fin, it is a fin sub no doubt,
i tried a couple capsules and i got the same cognitive sides i got on fin but more tolerable, bear in mind my body is very androgen sensitive, even saw palm gives me sides,

I use the shampoo good product, btw, if u tolerate this thats fantastic because it surely does its dht reducing job

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## Tracy C

> I agree.
> 
> We need people to test this out.


 Thus far every single bit of information on this has come from someone who has a vested interest in selling this product.  Legitimate studies need to be performed and the results analyzed by a third party that is free of any conflict of interest.  This has not happened and I do not see any evidence that it is going to happen.

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## clandestine

http://www.prohairclinic.com/sites/d..._protected.pdf

Not this time, Tracy. You won't this time.

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## Cob984

> Thus far every single bit of information on this has come from someone who has a vested interest in selling this product.  Legitimate studies need to be performed and the results analyzed by a third party that is free of any conflict of interest.  This has not happened and I do not see any evidence that it is going to happen.


 why the **** are you on this website you dumb $%$%

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## neversaynever

Hahahahhahahahhahahhahahha cob. That was funny.

I did start a thread about this but noone seemed interested! Im not convinced by it all (side free drug hmmm).

I also dont understand how its mode of action is different to fin?

Anyways, someones gotta check their DHT levels, and use this for a month and check levels again. Its the only way to know. I dont think people like Dr Arvind (who is quite ethical) would use this if he didnt think it works.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Hahahahhahahahhahahhahahha cob. That was funny.
> 
> I did start a thread about this but noone seemed interested! Im not convinced by it all (side free drug hmmm).
> 
> I also dont understand how its mode of action is different to fin?
> 
> Anyways, someones gotta check their DHT levels, and use this for a month and check levels again. Its the only way to know. I dont think people like Dr Arvind (who is quite ethical) would use this if he didnt think it works.


 Dont think it is side effect free. Just less likely to get them as it is a depressor.

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## neversaynever

Why are people saying 25% reduction?

1910 > 410....much more than 25%

I think their claim is that it doesnt effect T levels too much, which fin maybe does?

Check the stats in their study, its like a 70-80% reduction in DHT levels.

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## neversaynever

And whats this about "follicular sensitization threshold"?? In their study they claim DHT levels at 980 is the threshold. Is that true?

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## Cob984

the only thing different about this product is:-

1) dht levels dont go as low as fin, but much lower than 20-25&#37; reductions, its absolutely more than that
2) its natural and apparently has a much smaller half life so it claims to disappear from your system rather rapidly reducing the risk of PFS like stuff or so they claim
3) its a 5ar catalyse inhibitor not a suppressor so apparently the levels of 5ar in your system remain unchanged, i personally dont believe this rather i dont see how this is relevant since a lot of the ED sides etc are dht level related and not 5ar related,

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## yeahyeahyeah

> the only thing different about this product is:-
> 
> 1) dht levels dont go as low as fin, but much lower than 20-25% reductions, its absolutely more than that
> 2) its natural and apparently has a much smaller half life so it claims to disappear from your system rather rapidly reducing the risk of PFS like stuff or so they claim
> 3) its a 5ar catalyse inhibitor not a suppressor so apparently the levels of 5ar in your system remain unchanged, i personally dont believe this rather i dont see how this is relevant since a lot of the ED sides etc are dht level related and not 5ar related,


 Does the shampoo work

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## Cob984

The shampoo is not supposed to work on its own, u gota use it in combo with something, i did the shampoo + serum and got some not so nice cognitive sides 

now i only use the shampoo 3x week, i like it and will continue to use it, makes hair feel good, i prefer it to niz

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## Tracy C

> Not this time, Tracy. You won't this time.


 Won't what?

You don't get it.  This is not an unbiased study.  The people involved in this study have a vested interest in selling the product.  This does not qualify as a good study.

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## Tracy C

> why the **** are you on this website you dumb $%$%


 Because I am a whole lot smarter than you.

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## HARIRI

Tracy C with all my respect for you for being a female member. Please don't suppress our hopes to suppress our DHT level. Think about the people who get sexual sides with Finastride. What do you think of them? Is life is over to them??? We all know you are a pro Finastride and I admit its way more effective than this product. But please do not just go attacking anything that stands on its way. Lets debate with scientific base. Thank you.

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## Kirby_

> Won't what?
> 
> You don't get it.  This is not an unbiased study.  The people involved in this study have a vested interest in selling the product.  This does not qualify as a good study.


 I agree. It's an ocean full of sales sharks out there.

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## Cob984

> Because I am a whole lot smarter than you.


 you are a flaming idiot,
if people go by your logic and they cant tolerate fin they should sit on their ass and just wait for hair to disappear when there are so many other less effective things out there that can be clung on to to prevent the eventual, rather slow the eventual

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## neversaynever

> the only thing different about this product is:-
> 
> 1) dht levels dont go as low as fin, but much lower than 20-25% reductions, its absolutely more than that
> 2) its natural and apparently has a much smaller half life so it claims to disappear from your system rather rapidly reducing the risk of PFS like stuff or so they claim
> 3) its a 5ar catalyse inhibitor not a suppressor so apparently the levels of 5ar in your system remain unchanged, i personally dont believe this rather i dont see how this is relevant since a lot of the ED sides etc are dht level related and not 5ar related,


 isnt point 3 debatable? changes to 5ar levels starts to affect T and Free T levels which can also change levels of other hormones. 

We need something that binds to DHT specfically. So that 5ar can do its job in peace.

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## Conpecia

think I might try this in conjunction with capillogain for the next 3-5 months. I am sick of the fin side effects and perhaps this will minimize them... gonna order some this weekend

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## Conpecia

Here is another positive Keratene account from another forum. Apparently this person was also involved in the clinical trials. 

"I do know a few details.
I took part in their trials back in 2011 on this product and I got to experience various formulations they pushed down my throat. No side-effects for me personally but I heard from one of the doctors involved in the screening of the rest of the guys that some heavy duty athlete complained about tiredness or so. Anyway the guy was a sport freak or so. One extra bonus for me haaha  (unexpected though) after about half a year of popping pills I got some hair growing back on a previously a totally bald spot... on my leg! It was sweet to see that and it keeps going ok but it's not as hairy as the regions next to the spot. However the company went beyond any reasonable efforts to educate me that the product is strictly for the maintenance of the existing hair density and not for hair growth. So for the record, just to be clear, I do not say KAR is meant for hair growth. After the trial I saw the clinical presentation at a scientific meeting and the clinical tests show interesting results to say the least (and this is an understatement, just to be discreet and not advertise the product). From the papers I got for my trial the text sounds like this "K&#233;ratene alphactive Retard (I call it KAR) is not a direct enzyme inhibitor, but rather an indirect DHT depressor (lowering). The product does not interfere with 5ard (it just leaves the molecule intact) and it does not affect testosterone or other hormonal factors. It reduces DHT levels by preventing the chemical reduction of Testosterone into DHT. With Keratene alphactive retard you can "see" the direct effects by measuring your DHT levels in blood, prior to administration and after at least 7 days during administration. ". 
My personal results were like this: before KAR - DHT 1734pg/ml, after 8 days it dropped to 762, then after 2 weeks it dropped to 574 and during 8 months it stayed at around 560 - 580, which is very good. 
Up to this moment I feel good, I am happy with my own experience. 
From my point of view the problem with testing your own dht level is finding a proper lab that has the gear to run the test correctly. Dht is no longer a hot topic and it can be quite challenging to find a good lab. Best bet would be a university hospital or possibly at the endocrinology faculties they may still do dht. Contact the customer care from keratene if you want to ask something specific or so, they answer pretty quickly and you get (in my opinion) educated answers.
But anyway, don't just jump buying the stuff like that. Be smart, they still run some trials and if you're from the Belgium region you can jump in for free. The nasty part is that they require you to get your veins needled several times (actually lots of times, my veins are still blue and patchy) and if you're not a fan of long sharp pointy needles.... you're screwed. Go consult a professional doctor or so. Where are you from? Did you visit a doctor? If you're from Europe I can recommend you a few.
Anyway, based on my own experience, the product does not help much when you're in telogen effluvium, that crazy hair shedding when you're losing hairs in rapid tempo so if you're in "that" period of the year, just be patient, take care of yourself, lower the stress and take some vitamins. If you're already in a visible / advanced state of alopecia, save some cash and do either micropigmentation or a transplant (if you can afford it or depending on what you feel comfortable with). KAR will probably help you keep the normal hairs you have now but the biggest change will be made by ht.
Let me know if this helps!
Cheers
Last edited on Sun Nov 4th, 2012 09:59 am by mkwill"


So, according to what we've heard from a few trial participants, it seems like there is a good chance that Keratene will maintain the hair you have.

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## clandestine

I'm sure it will, as it works by a similar method to that of Fin. Question is whether it has sides or not.

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## clandestine

And be sure to keep us updated Conpecia!

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## Jcm800

Yeah keep us updated, im getting desperate myself

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Yeah keep us updated, im getting desperate myself


 And let me know too.

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## Tracy C

> you are a flaming idiot...


 Far from it.  If you want to see what a flaming idiot looks like, go look in a mirror.

When you are done with that, try paying attentions to the details.  The devil is in the details - and the details do matter.

If you ignore the fact that there is no un-biased input from anyone who does not have a vested interest in selling the product, you are a fool.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Far from it.  If you want to see what a flaming idiot looks like, go look in a mirror.
> 
> When you are done with that, try paying attentions to the details.  The devil is in the details - and the details do matter.
> 
> If you ignore the fact that there is no un-biased input from anyone who does not have a vested interest in selling the product, you are a fool.


 Oh shut up both of you.

Tired of seeing Tracy getting into flame wars.

----------


## Tracy C

> Tired of seeing Tracy getting into flame wars.


 I don't start them.  I only defend myself when someone else flames me.  So, just don't flame me and I won't flame you back.  It's that easy.

I want this thing you've found to be real you know.  I want to see good quality un-biased evidence that it works.  I deeply wish there were some available - but there isn't.  At least not yet.  Hopefully there will be some someday.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I don't start them.  I only defend myself when someone else flames me.  So, just don't flame me and I won't flame you back.  It's that easy.
> 
> I want this thing you've found to be real you know.  I want to see good quality un-biased evidence that it works.  I deeply wish there were some available - but there isn't.  At least not yet.  Hopefully there will be some someday.


 
The only way people are going to find out is if they order the product and try it out.

Everything else is just mental masturbation.

----------


## JJJJrS

Interesting thread. Definitely intrigued to read people's experiences on this.

The trouble with proving these type of treatments is that it's very difficult to tell if something is really slowing down or halting your hairloss, since each person's hairloss progression is pretty unpredictable. Maybe a blood test would be worth looking into, like some people have recommended in this thread. But we'll probably get an idea if there's enough before-after pictures, anecdotal stories.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Interesting thread. Definitely intrigued to read people's experiences on this.
> 
> The trouble with proving these type of treatments is that it's very difficult to tell if something is really slowing down or halting your hairloss, since each person's hairloss progression is pretty unpredictable. Maybe a blood test would be worth looking into, like some people have recommended in this thread. But we'll probably get an idea if there's enough before-after pictures, anecdotal stories.


 Thats why I am a bad example.

Because my HL is very slow anyway.

----------


## Kirby_

> I don't start them.  I only defend myself when someone else flames me.  So, just don't flame me and I won't flame you back.  It's that easy.
> 
> I want this thing you've found to be real you know.  I want to see good quality un-biased evidence that it works.  I deeply wish there were some available - but there isn't.  At least not yet.  Hopefully there will be some someday.


 You're only getting flamed in this thread because you're telling people what they don't want to hear, namely this is another sham product with no proper scientific evidence behind it.

----------


## b0urna

> Oh shut up both of you.
> 
> Tired of seeing Tracy getting into flame wars.


 Tracy gets flamed because she's (rightfully) doubtful about an unproven product, that what we should assume for now is one of the hundreds of snake oils trying to take advantage of our desperation.
Come on people..wake up from your mental masturbation (loving the phrasing yeahyeahyeah), if this works as a 'fin without sides' we should start getting reports from all over the web within a few months, in the meantime I wouldn't get too excited

----------


## Cob984

no what wer saying is tracy is a moron because everything but fin is garbage,
its not, this thing is not side affect free but lower dht it does, 
The topicals will convince you of this as well if you bothered to try them,

And if your body rejects fin there are plenty of other products nowhere near as good but not snake oils. this is reality,

----------


## Conpecia

Anyways back to the matter at hand... Do you guys know if this even ships to the US? That'd kinda deflat my plans if it doesn't...

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Anyways back to the matter at hand... Do you guys know if this even ships to the US? That'd kinda deflat my plans if it doesn't...


 if you order via prohair clinic they ship to the US

----------


## Conpecia

> if you order via prohair clinic they ship to the US


 Thanks man. Phew. 

I'll order some this weekend along with capillogain. I have decided to abandon fin because it gives me gynecomastia and sexual sides that are not worth preserving my hair. I believe these two experimental treatments used simultaneously will do something positive, even if that means mere preservation and not regrowth. I have enough hair so that 6 months will not make or break me. I can always hop back on fin this summer. 

My goal psychologically is to be disciplined with the treatments and not monitor myself too much until 6 months has passed. I spend way too much time worrying about hair loss and I also tend to abandon treatments early for fear of sides and ineffectiveness. I have a lot going for me other than my hair. It really isn't that big a deal.

----------


## Conpecia

Update:

Tried to order 180 pills of Keratene and was denied when I entered my credit card info, simply stating "Not Authorized"

I sent them an email, will report back with any info...

Also, this stuff ain't cheap. But cheaper than Propecia at least...

----------


## Cob984

The capsules were a bit too intense for me I think even at small quantities, i felt bit of a disconnect with my brethren down there if you know what I mean, guess I will stick with the topical route for now:

I am using the keratene shampoo + sercomplex, good product all around, for those wanting to try the capsules go for it, this is a solid company

----------


## shredder

cob, so in other words, you got the "classic" fin sides from using the keratene capsules?

because when I tried fin for a short while I experienced exactely what you described (+ some ED).

----------


## Cob984

I noticed a bit more weight gain and also less libido, i cannot comment on erections since I only tried it for a week and didnt have sex that week, but i just seemed a bit disinterested really, usually after 2-3 days of no action i have a raging desire to look up some porno, had no interest at all while on this product, i.e. the capsules, but let me warn you my body is very androgen sensitive, i also tried fin for a week and the keratene capsules are definitely more tolerable

----------


## shredder

you are not the only who is very androgen sensitive - when I tried fin for a short while (2-3 weeks, 1 mg every other day) my libido was gone wit hthe wind, the thought of having sex seemed totally absurd. and I also experienced ED and groin pain (note: I had never had any problems in that department, on the contrary - I am normally very easily aroused).

I still don't see why keratene's product, which lowers dht, should not affect libido/erection - it simply does not make sense. the only explanation would be that fin has a stronger effect on the dht level, as others have mentioned - but if that's the only difference, then taking fin every other day may just have a similar effect.

maybe spencer should invite a represetative for keratene to the forum?

p.s.: I am also trying the topical products from keratene, i.e. the shampoo and the ultra complex. no notable changes yet, but I only started last tuesday, so it's to early for results anyway.

----------


## Cob984

I am so sensitive to this stuff that even the sercomplex was giving me cognitive sides etc, though its much better now, guess body is adjusting to it,
the topicals work well for me, they immediately give my hair more life after a wash,

Agree on the sides, its not logical that if the end result is the same, the sides arent,
the only reason id be more comfortable taking keratene is the PFS stuff, from saw palmetto experience i know that even though it gives me sides, they disappear soon after discontinuing it so i guess spends much less time lingering about in the system

----------


## shredder

may I ask how often you use the shampoo, and how often the serum?

I am using the shampoo every day, plus the ultra serum  every other day - that's my plan at least.

----------


## Cob984

Shampoo - 3x/week, Serum 2/week
On days I dont use the products i use divine hair oil

----------


## LongWayHome

Cob, I have a question about the topicals:
Do they suppose to maintain or what? I didn't get it from their website,
Is it only shampoo and serum? Do you think it can inhibit DHT?
The website looks really professional and they really look solid but as always,
seems too good.

----------


## Cob984

Yea maintain i guess, i still think internal blockers are the only real way out of mpb but this is the next best thing, I have only been using the shampoo for a month and a half and the sercomplex about a week and a half, i dont think i have lost ground in that time frame though i have been experimenting with fin, the retard capsules etc unfortunately with sides during this time as well.

yes i believe it inhibits dht because i got some cognitive sides when i first start using the products very reminiscent of the finasteride brain fog,

----------


## LongWayHome

Alright man, then you know what, I'm joining you in this journey.
I was about to try RU but that was before I discovered this.
It's a new thing but I'm pretty sure it's not snake oil, it can only help,
the question is how much.
If this won't work, and I'll give it time, then I'll go for RU.
I'm going to use the pills and the topicals. 
Will update next month.

----------


## LongWayHome

They say in their website that the Serum/Ultra therapy/shampoo/Conditioner
"May be used in combination with Finasteride or other (amino)minoxidil- or aminexil-based products, with restrictions."
Of course they don't say the same thing about the pills, the "retard" ones.
I am really having a hard time deciding what to do here.
I can buy RU and hope for the best, but of course it's a pain in the *** making it every day (I'm going on the home-made), on the other hand I belive that when doing it that right way, RU can work very well.
OR I can just go for the whole combination of Keratane pills, shampoo and serum/ultra therapy, and pray.

I wish I could have a peeking to the future and see what has been going on with this thread, if it became neogenic, or a solid stuff.
I guess I am the future and I will be the one to report.

----------


## Cob984

Wow Pills + topicals ? thats potent man, let me assure you one thing, these pills are strong and comparable to fin, i know cause i have tried them, 

If you are just going by efficacy here I can guarantee you will not get stronger than the Keratene pills + topical route

----------


## LongWayHome

I had sides from fin so I hope I won't get them at the same level on those pills.
It wasn't about libido though.

I'll give it a go.
To the infinity, and beyond!

(if you don't hear from me, call 911)

----------


## HARIRI

> I had sides from fin so I hope I won't get them at the same level on those pills.
> It wasn't about libido though.
> 
> I'll give it a go.
> To the infinity, and beyond!
> 
> (if you don't hear from me, call 911)


 
Same here Bro

I got bad libido sides from FIN and it got worser after 9 months of use. I started it December 2006 and quitted it September 2007. However I responded very well and restotred  many hairs especially in the midscalp and crown with lowering DHT. Since then I have been depending on Hairomega DHT (Saw Palmetto ++) and Rogaine 5&#37;  and hairline transplant.

I will give it a go starting March 1 as I will place my order when I get back home frim vacation by mid February. Im super excited as you. Thanks YEAH YEAH YEAH for bringing this to us.

----------


## HARIRI

> I had sides from fin so I hope I won't get them at the same level on those pills.
> It wasn't about libido though.
> 
> I'll give it a go.
> To the infinity, and beyond!
> 
> (if you don't hear from me, call 911)


 
Same here Bro

I got bad libido sides from FIN and it got worser after 9 months of use. I started it DEC 2006 and quitted it September 2007. However i responded very well and restotred si many hairs especially midscalp and crown with lowering DHT. Since then I have been depending on Saw Palmetto and Rogaine 5%  and hairline transplant.

I will give it a go starting March 1 as I will place my order when i get back home frim vacation by mid February. Im super excited as you. Thanks YEAH YEAH YEAH for bringing this to us.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Same here Bro
> 
> I got bad libido sides from FIN and it got worser after 9 months of use. I started it DEC 2006 and quitted it September 2007. However i responded very well and restotred si many hairs especially midscalp and crown with lowering DHT. Since then I have been depending on Saw Palmetto and Rogaine 5%  and hairline transplant.
> 
> I will give it a go starting March 1 as I will place my order when i get back home frim vacation by mid February. Im super excited as you. Thanks YEAH YEAH YEAH for bringing this to us.


 
Let me know how it goes guys.

----------


## Tracy C

> no what wer saying is tracy is a moron because everything but fin is garbage...


 I am not even close to being a moron.

I have never said everything but Finasteride is garbage.  I want to see good quality unbiased evidence to support these claims.  I am not seeing any.  Why am I not seeing any?  Because there isn't any good quality unbiased evidence to support these claims.

You are very gullible.  I have some ocean front property in Montana that I think would be perfect for a buyer like you.

----------


## Cob984

> I am not even close to being a moron.
> 
> I have never said everything but Finasteride is garbage.  I want to see good quality unbiased evidence to support these claims.  I am not seeing any.  Why am I not seeing any?  Because there isn't any good quality unbiased evidence to support these claims.
> 
> You are very gullible.  I have some ocean front property in Montana that I think would be perfect for a buyer like you.


 Can you ****ing shutup? How am i gullible if i have tried the products? Do you read posts? idiot
At this point i dont need a study telling me whats legit and what isnt, i have been experimenting long enough to know

----------


## shredder

just for the record: I will try the topicals for 3 months (started on Jan 22, 2013). 

If I don't experience a reduction in hairloss, or any other improvement, I will try the capsules.

----------


## LongWayHome

Good luck shredder, and tell Krang hi for me please, ask him if his body is still bald, I heard he's on the big 3 now.

And Cob - don't get angry, this is a try and if we'll fail then whatever, if not than hurray,
someone has to test it and this time it's us.
Someday there will be a cure and we we'll say to each other "remember when we ate toilet paper for regrowth?? good times..."
This is a journey, unfortunately in our time there isn't a cure, yet, so we have to do this. It's just a matter of time until something will work, it's good money for the companies and they're working really hard not like 20 years ago.

----------


## Cob984

Im angry at tracy man, she should gtfo , shes a dumbass who doesnt even have mpb,
I stand by these products because i have tried them, i wish i could handle the pills but my body wont tolerate them sadly, but this company is solid so i encourage you guys to try it,

I really like the topicals and if you guys can tolerate the pills, i guarantee good almost fin like results given my experience,

Report back guys, kudos for giving this a shot like I am, Lets all report back regularly with our updates

----------


## LongWayHome

BTW!!
I almost forgot to ask you:
What is the difference between the "ultra therapy cg2" and the "serum cg2" ?
In their website it says that "ultra" is a stronger one for "excessive hair loss"
and the serum is kinda modest, so what exactly do you use?
Just tell me everything you use from that company and how exactly,
I understand the serums have to be used on the scalp only when it's 50 celius at least and leave it for 10-15 minutes.

----------


## Cob984

the conditioner is the weakest, the conditioner really isnt a conditioner its a serum,

So in terms of strength its conditioner<serum<ultra,
I chose the serum because it says age 25> and im 25, so to be safe, plus its v strong in itself, 
i only use a small amt and after applying hot water to the scalp, I leave it on for about 10 minutes, i also keep the products in the fridge since the activation is all about temperature differential. 
So i put hot water then shampoo for 4-5 minutes, wash, then heat scalp, serum 10 minutes, Wash

I only use a little serum 2x week because any more and i start to get brain fog like symptoms, now its getting better though as my body is getting used to it

----------


## LongWayHome

So you're saying that the serum is cold when you use it on your hot scalp?
Can't it be dangerous? even though I understand there is chemical thing here so I guess if it wasn't like this it wouldn't be effective at all.

----------


## Cob984

why would it be dangerous? its not like my scalp is boiling lol,
the whole point of this is temperature differential, in fact i have noticed less headaches since putting the product in the fridge

----------


## shredder

for me, the temperature-dependent activation is a drawback to the topical products. I am quite sensitive to higher temperatures, so the need to put my head under what I (subjectively) consider to be too hot water is not that great.

cob, are you sure that a temperature difference causes the activation? because I thought that is was the absolute temperature (50 &#176;C) that causes the activation. did you ask the keratene guys?

----------


## Cob984

The water doesnt have to be flaming hot guys, yes iv asked the guys, 
The keratene guys said doesnt need to be put in a fridge but i met a HT dr in my hometown who has just launched selling the product here in India, Dr Poswal, his clinic stores the shampoos under refrigeration claiming that its better for the scalp that way and i would have to agree, iv had a more pleasant experience since doing so

----------


## shredder

but couldn't your feeling better be the result of a smaller fraction of the substance being absorbed? just wondering...

----------


## Cob984

i have confirmed with keratene reps that the temperature of the product as long as it isnt above normal room temp wont affect absorption,

just have a warm scalp and ul be fine

oh and btw recently when i was travelling, i used the product room temperature and didnt feel any worse

----------


## shredder

thanks cob.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Im angry at tracy man, she should gtfo , shes a dumbass who doesnt even have mpb,
> I stand by these products because i have tried them, i wish i could handle the pills but my body wont tolerate them sadly, but this company is solid so i encourage you guys to try it,
> 
> I really like the topicals and if you guys can tolerate the pills, i guarantee good almost fin like results given my experience,
> 
> Report back guys, kudos for giving this a shot like I am, Lets all report back regularly with our updates


 If you are getting sides from this - people are better of trying fin, if they are looking for their first hairloss product.

----------


## Cob984

I think almost everyone here is either scared shitless of fin or has tried fin and decided the sides are too much ?

I am not saying try this before fin,

----------


## StuckInARut

He sounds a lot like gutted in that he is guaranteeing people will see results. He actually sound like a rep for this Keratene product line and as far as I am concerned it is all unsubstantiated. I would caution everyone to wait for others to be the guinea pig and report if there are any positive results. I mean the price of these products are obscene so it is much easier to take a gamble on MSM and Vit. C which costs a few bucks a month.

----------


## shredder

hmm I think it's unlikely that cob has a commercial interest because he is actually saying that he got sides from the capsules - whereas the company keratene actually states that it is free of sides (which is their main sales argument).

the reason why people like me are trying this is because it is a DHT blocker - i.e. it uses a mechanism which is proven to influence hair loss.

I would have loved to use fin, but I was just unable to tolerate it. if the keratene products can block DHT (which apparently they can - the capsules at least), but are less agressive than fin, that would be a good alternative. whether or not the degree of DHT blockage is high enough to influence hairloss, is yet to be seen.

----------


## Cob984

You mad bro? lmfao rep for keratene,
Whatever dude im not saying it works, im saying its worth a shot, im not sure it works either, given that my body has just built up the tolerance to be able to use the serum after battling brainfog like symptoms with the serum, I was only able to tolerate the shampoo previously but it does make my hair look and feel better after a wash at the least

On the pills, i have already said they are too strong for me and i think those with fin sides will get sides on this too but milder, some people maybe able to tolerate it i dont know,
This is for people who have tried fin, could not continue and are trying to experiment with something inbetween the efficacy of saw palmetto (which i take) and fin, it might hit the sweet spot for some i dont know,

And i am quite sure it will work becausethe science is 5ar inhibition here which anyone with a brain knows stops dht and helps hair, Have fun wasting more time experimenting with msm and growing longer pubes, that should really help with your mpb
Dont wanna try it now and wait? Sound logic I agree but i am desperate and i usually try anything that claims to block dht and I think a few others here are too,

I am also using divine herbal, saw palmetto complex, trx2, so lol wanna call me a rep for those brands too?

----------


## LongWayHome

> You mad bro? lmfao rep for keratene,
> Whatever dude im not saying it works, im saying its worth a shot, im not sure it works either, given that my body has just built up the tolerance to be able to use the serum after battling brainfog like symptoms with the serum, I was only able to tolerate the shampoo previously but it does make my hair look and feel better after a wash at the least
> 
> On the pills, i have already said they are too strong for me and i think those with fin sides will get sides on this too but milder, some people maybe able to tolerate it i dont know,
> This is for people who have tried fin, could not continue and are trying to experiment with something inbetween the efficacy of saw palmetto (which i take) and fin, it might hit the sweet spot for some i dont know,
> 
> And i am quite sure it will work becausethe science is 5ar inhibition here which anyone with a brain knows stops dht and helps hair, Have fun wasting more time experimenting with msm and growing longer pubes, that should really help with your mpb
> Dont wanna try it now and wait? Sound logic I agree but i am desperate and i usually try anything that claims to block dht and I think a few others here are too,
> 
> I am also using divine herbal, saw palmetto complex, trx2, so lol wanna call me a rep for those brands too?


 Amen.
For me the next station in this train in case it doesn't work - is RU.
I was about to order it from Ontario in a few days but then this came up and I said the hell why not give it a try.

----------


## clandestine

> He sounds a lot like gutted in that he is guaranteeing people will see results. He actually sound like a rep for this Keratene product line and as far as I am concerned it is all unsubstantiated. I would caution everyone to wait for others to be the guinea pig and report if there are any positive results. I mean the price of these products are obscene so it is much easier to take a gamble on MSM and Vit. C which costs a few bucks a month.


 MSM and Vit C will not save your hair. I'm sorry.

----------


## hugo

Anyone out there who has swapped propecia with Keratene and is happy with the results regaring prevention of hair loss ?

----------


## LongWayHome

> Anyone out there who has swapped propecia with Keratene and is happy with the results regaring prevention of hair loss ?


 Too soon man, too soon.
I ordered the pills 2 days ago and I'll report everything, don't worry.
There are other people as well who are about to try it.

----------


## lucrio

> Too soon man, too soon.
> I ordered the pills 2 days ago and I'll report everything, don't worry.
> There are other people as well who are about to try it.


 LongWayHome, just curious, what country are you from. I'm in the U.S and interested in trying the pills also. What website are you ordering them from and what is the price and shipping like if you don't mind answering.

----------


## Tracy C

> Can you ****ing shutup?


 You started this nonsense and you've been the one doing the name calling.  You are the one who needs to be shutting up.  I am not an idiot.  Since you need to see an example of an idiot so you will know what an idiot is, go to the nearest mirror.

----------


## Tracy C

> Im angry at tracy man, she should gtfo , shes a dumbass who doesnt even have mpb.


 Again with the name calling.  You are the one with the problem.  You are the one with an obvious and serious lack of intelligence.  You are the unreasonable idiot.  Not me.  Stop flaming me and won't need to defend myself.

----------


## Tracy C

> I stand by these products because i have tried them...


 That isn't even worth the letters you wasted typing it.  It does not matter.  There is still no good quality unbiased evidence.  Your "say so" about it is less than worthless.

----------


## Tracy C

> He sounds a lot like gutted in that he is guaranteeing people will see results. He actually sound like a rep for this Keratene product line and as far as I am concerned it is all unsubstantiated.


 He sure does - or at least has a vested interest in selling it.  His behavior here should be tipping everyone off that this might be a scam.

Use your grey matter guys.  There is no good quality unbiased evidence for this product.  I really wish there was some but there isn't.

----------


## Cob984

Hey tracy can you please leave this thread? I dont care if this product fails me, and I think the rest of the guys here are gambling it will work too, why ? because we cant tolerate fin so stfu? If I have cash and I am desperate I am going to try this product and based on the one month i have used the topicals i have had a good experience and not lost a lot of ground because before this while only on trx2+msm my hair was losing ground rapidly, cant say the same for revivogen, divine hair oil, procerin etc that i have tried before this

Thats why i am sharing my experience here and given the side affect profile i think it is as close to fin as you can get today, and i dont need your stupid ass telling me otherwise, How the **** can i have a vested interest selling this if im explicitly stating the pills dont sit well with me and I cant use them because i get sides? real smart salesman tactic that, let the people who want to try it, do so
I think its fairly logical that noone who can tolerate fin in their right mind would jump ship to this, this is an attempt for those that cant

----------


## LongWayHome

> LongWayHome, just curious, what country are you from. I'm in the U.S and interested in trying the pills also. What website are you ordering them from and what is the price and shipping like if you don't mind answering.


 Hi man, I'm from Israel and if I'm not wrong there's some problem with shipping to the U.S but maybe I'm wrong.
You can check this in the Keratene website where I bought it from.
The price of 60 pills is 42.95 EUR which is 56.4$, and shipping at least to Israel is 30 EUR which is 40$. 
Hope I helped.

----------


## GuyFromUK

Am I right in thinking this product is supposed to obliterate the 5 alpha reductase enzyme just like finasteride does? I.e. by getting rid of 5 alpha reductase it prevents the conversion of testosterone to DHT.

If this is the case then why doesn't their website explain how this product achieves that?

Surely they haven't just discovered a new version of finasteride that can also get rid of 5ar in the human body?!  If they have invented this then there is clearly a LOT of science behind their product, you can't just invent something like this quickly or without a lot of medical expertise. 

When you read their website it doesn't look like they are a scientific outfit. They don't look like they have lots of great scientists working for them who have spent years developing a new version of finasteride.

Their website doesn't explain what is inside their product that can get rid of 5 alpha reductase. You would think that with a miracle breakthrough like this they would at least have a bit more scientific stuff on their site.

For all we know they could just be putting a tiny amount of finasteride or saw palmetto in each capsule.

I want to believe in this product but their website looks fishy and it looks like another snake oil to me

----------


## Cob984

Actually if you read the website closely, and i clearly have too much free time it claims to stop the 5ar enzyme from hydrogenating T into DHT, leaving the total levels of 5ar unchanged. This seems too good to be true and frankly i think its a bogus claim, If i was them and this was true i would be shouting this from the rooftops and say this is why there are no sides, rather than our product reduces dht by a lesser amount than fin so you get no sides.

This is definitely not saw palmetto dude, i take saw palmetto daily with tolerable sides, this keratene pill blitzed my body, i felt like i put on fat on my chest and hips in like 1 week, i felt so bloated on this stuff, not to mention slight brain fog which i dont get on saw palmetto.
I think this is some seriously potent plant sterol in the beta sitosterol mould? Im guessing but yes they seem to be rather secretive of their ingredient list, i wonder why.


For reference my exchange with a rep:
me - Also, i had a question about your product and in particular the Retard capsules, how is this different from propecia exactly if its also a 5AR inhibitor?

them - K&#233;ratene alphactive Retard is not a 5ard inhibitor but rather a catalyse inhibitor, it prevents the transformation of testosterone to DHT.
It is fundamentally different from Propecia in many ways, such as it is a bio-organic  bio-compatible compound based on plant fats whereas finasteride is a synthetically engineered molecule. Our product achieves comparable results, without the side-effects.

me - So exactly how does it stop test to dht without inhibiting 5AR?
The fact that it is natural means nothing, for eg, i took saw palmetto, its also natural but caused me sides because its a mild 5ar inhibitor, 

them - It’s all explained here
http://www.keratene.com/keratene-ret...-capsules.html

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Actually if you read the website closely, and i clearly have too much free time it claims to stop the 5ar enzyme from hydrogenating T into DHT, leaving the total levels of 5ar unchanged. This seems too good to be true and frankly i think its a bogus claim, If i was them and this was true i would be shouting this from the rooftops and say this is why there are no sides, rather than our product reduces dht by a lesser amount than fin so you get no sides.
> 
> This is definitely not saw palmetto dude, i take saw palmetto daily with tolerable sides, this keratene pill blitzed my body, i felt like i put on fat on my chest and hips in like 1 week, i felt so bloated on this stuff, not to mention slight brain fog which i dont get on saw palmetto.
> I think this is some seriously potent plant sterol in the beta sitosterol mould? Im guessing but yes they seem to be rather secretive of their ingredient list, i wonder why.
> 
> 
> For reference my exchange with a rep:
> me - Also, i had a question about your product and in particular the Retard capsules, how is this different from propecia exactly if its also a 5AR inhibitor?
> 
> ...


 You should tell them that you got sides.

And isnt DHT important for bodybuilding etc.

----------


## Tracy C

> Hey tracy can you please leave this thread?


 Absolutely not - and it is not your place to tell me to leave.

These guys deserve to know that there is a gross lack of credible evidence to support the safety and efficacy of this product.

----------


## LongWayHome

> Absolutely not - and it is not your place to tell me to leave.
> 
> These guys deserve to know that there is a gross lack of credible evidence to support the safety and efficacy of this product.


 We know that.
I'm 22, 1.87m, with hair like Desmond from lost, same temples, only he has it permanently and I'm receeding. Sucks right?
I'm used since 16 years old that girls all over look at me and playing with their hair, even when they're driving for god sake. 
Unfortunately, without hair I'm a totally a different person, I wish it wasn't like that but it is.
I'm desperate, and I'm going to try this thing. If it won't work then RU, if not, then fin again and the hell with the sides.
The anger between you and Cob is useless.
I'm going to report whether it's snake oil or a lion oil, until then it is best if you'll relaxe.

----------


## lucrio

I read all of the trial documentation provided earlier in this thread and also right here,

http://www.prohairclinic.com/sites/d..._protected.pdf

and this seems like legitimate documentation. Unless the company completely invented their trial participants and test results out of the blue, which would be a very brazen and risky tactic, it's hard to see how this product, pills in particular, could be snake oil. Granted the sample size of trial participants was small, something like 35 people, they are basing their claims purely off of the data. I don't necessarily think they mean the product is side effect free but more that there were no observed side effects in the trial group. The point of the trials was to prove Keratene lowers DHT levels without changing testosterone or free testosterone levels, which looks to be exactly what was proven true.

Also, the difference between inhibiting 5AR (finasteride) and inhibiting the formation of DHT from 5AR (keratene) is pretty clear to me. Inhibiting 5AR literally means the body has less 5AR present in it. Inhibiting the formation of DHT from 5AR means not allowing 5AR to give up its hydrogens to testosterone which becomes DHT, while still allowing the 5AR to be present in the same amounts. 

Perhaps allowing 5AR to exist while not forming DHT lets it perform it's role in other less known hormonal activities, creating less sides. This is just speculation but all I can presume is that this product seems to perform the role of lowering DHT, determining how different the side effect profile and hair loss prevention is from finasteride is now up to us to test as it looks like from reading the documentation that funding to pursue a drug label for it will not be sufficient and it will remain a disease nonspecific dietary supplement. 

This thread should be more about giving caution and speculation where it is due while keeping an open enough mind to pursue POSSIBLE treatments.

----------


## GuyFromUK

What is the main cause of side effects from Finasteride, is it from lowering DHT levels too low or is it from getting rid of 5AR?

----------


## Tracy C

> I read all of the trial documentation provided earlier in this thread and also right here,
> 
> http://www.prohairclinic.com/sites/d..._protected.pdf
> 
> and this seems like legitimate documentation.


 The problem with this documentation, as well as all other available documentation on this product, is that every word of it is coming from someone who has a vested interest in selling the product.  There are no unbiased evaluations at all.  That is not acceptable.  That makes all the available documentation basically uncredible and worthless.

----------


## clandestine

This discussion is tiring. Tracy, you sound like a broken record. Boys, stop attacking Tracy, she's partially right.

So who is ordering the pills /has ordered them?

----------


## Tracy C

> Tracy, you sound like a broken record.


 That's because these guys are either missing or ignoring the obvious problem with this product.

The OP asked for our thoughts.  Does that exclude my thoughts?  I am simply drawing attention to the obvious.

----------


## Cob984

2 continous weeks of using the Topicals as directed and my hair especially after a wash looks so damn good, Its too early to comment on its effectiveness in my mpb battle because topicals i guess are notorious in their short term affect, but damn, i always do a quick wash before i go out on weekends and my hair looks great right after, i would buy it just for that

if this affect lasts ill be overjoyed, fingers crossed, i defn have lost minimal if any ground since using just the shampoo though I must warn you guys my androgen sensitive body is probably not a good benchmark of this stuff

----------


## LongWayHome

> This discussion is tiring. Tracy, you sound like a broken record. Boys, stop attacking Tracy, she's partially right.
> 
> So who is ordering the pills /has ordered them?


 I ordered the pills a few days ago.
And as I said, I'll report everything.

----------


## Jcm800

> I ordered the pills a few days ago.
> And as I said, I'll report everything.


 How much were the pills, are you in the UK?

----------


## LongWayHome

> How much were the pills, are you in the UK?


 No, I'm in Israel.

It was 72 EUR which is 42 EUR for 60 pills and 30 EUR for delivery.

----------


## shredder

Update: 

After one week of using the shampoo ad ultra serum, my hair feels good - kind of heavier than before, thicker. but this is obviously a cosmetic effect. no itch btw.

with regard to hairloss, it is way to early to tell of course. maybe my hairloss has decreased to a minor degree, but possibly it's just my imagination.

I will report back at the end of the first month.

----------


## LongWayHome

> Update: 
> 
> After one week of using the shampoo ad ultra serum, my hair feels good - kind of heavier than before, thicker. but this is obviously a cosmetic effect. no itch btw.
> 
> with regard to hairloss, it is way to early to tell of course. maybe my hairloss has decreased to a minor degree, but possibly it's just my imagination.
> 
> I will report back at the end of the first month.


 Thank you.
It's good that you people keep updating.

----------


## doke

Although i was tempted to try i thought this is no miracle super cure as they are hair transplant clinic what we really still need is a hair regrowth product that does away with transplants and can regrow hair all over scalp even in shiny bald scalps which is in the future and i think it was psi or oc000459 which did that in some but it needs safety tests on humans although we know some are experimenting and is it better if you cannot use finas to try ru58841,as i see mpb have a new ru58841 plus added to there shop.

----------


## JJacobs152

Tracy, what is your source about the study being flawed? If this is true, well this basically throws Keratene in the garbage, and shows no credibility in their products at all. The members here are just throwing their money away. This product would basically be as good as the Nioxin shampoos - nil.  :Smile:

----------


## JJacobs152

Tracy, what is your source about the study being flawed? If this is true, well this basically throws Keratene in the garbage, and shows no credibility in their products at all. The members here are just throwing their money away. This product would basically be as good as the Nioxin shampoos - nil.  :Smile: 

Edit: Ok, I re-read this thread again, and you guys, I'm backing Tracy up 110% on this. You guys are jumping the gun way tooo quick with this product. Just stop, and use your heads for a single moment. 

1. There is no clinical data backing up this product at all. When you go to www.pubmed.org and type in keywords like "finasteride", "minoxidil", "insert drug name" - you get a list of hundreds and thousands of studies that were done on the product. With Keratene, there is no such study to be found, besides their in house study. 

2. All the "data" that we see is from various hair loss forums, and even then - none of these people are posting pictures showing their improvements or gains. Additionally, lol, all the threads are from people that have 1-2 posts...c'mon now guys. Look on this forum, and you'll see people posting their progress with fin, minox, RU, etc etc. I know the product hasn't been around for too long, but it has been around enough for people to post timely intervalled photos from it's debut on the market to the current date. 

3. I really think you guys should re-consider dumping your money into this product. I personally believe this is just something along the lines of Saw Palmetto. It probably does lower DHT levels, but not to the point of showing significant improvement. As Tracy said, taking any synthesized product will have side effects. It's a trade-off, that comes with the product. 





> You're only getting flamed in this thread because you're telling people what they don't want to hear, namely this is another sham product with no proper scientific evidence behind it.


 Yes, because Kirby, the truth does hurt. You guys are getting blindsided by your logic and proper thinking. Instead, you're letting your desperate nature take the best of you. Not you specifically, but everybody that is interested in throwing their money into Keratene. 

Just food for thought, does Keratene have a FDA approval? Even if it does, it still doesn't mean anything. 

You guys need to stick to products that have showed a positive trend through the years and are consistent. Think about how much more you'll be devastated finding out:

a. You spent your money on a product that wasn't effective.
b. You could've used that money to either:
       i. save up for a hair transplant
      ii. used it to purchase products that do help with hairloss.

----------


## Cob984

Wow man you have way too much time on your hands,
If you have read this thread you will see majority of the people trying it are those that cannot tolerate FIN, i dont think anyone here is telling people to dump the big 3 and get on this, this is for those people giving this a shot , how are you comparing the cost of  HT to buying something for 50-100$ ? if iv tried fin and cannot continue what do u want me to do? watch my hair disappear rapidly everyday, 

On another note, for those trying the pills, they can always get their dht levels tested and see if keratenes claims are legit or not

----------


## Conpecia

Jjacobs, I appreciate your efforts to make sure we don't waste our money. But what about the fact that all of those doctors are recommending Keratene at their clinics. As an American, I can't even buy it directly, but instead have to purchase it from Pro Hair Clinic. Do you think PHC or any of these doctor's would risk their reputations by recommending a snake oil?

----------


## JJacobs152

> Jjacobs, I appreciate your efforts to make sure we don't waste our money. But what about the fact that all of those doctors are recommending Keratene at their clinics. As an American, I can't even buy it directly, but instead have to purchase it from Pro Hair Clinic. Do you think PHC or any of these doctor's would risk their reputations by recommending a snake oil?


 Physicians can recommend anything they want to a patient, because at the end of the day, companies will give the physician a cut on the percentage of sales &/or the physician will just keep the profits from the product. It's unethical, but most physician's are guilty of doing this. It's probably hard to believe, but it's the truth. 

Secondly, a physician that's recommending a product that isn't FDA approved - raises questions. Physicians will say what I'm telling you (as a future physician)  - stick to the products that have proven *scientific results with massive amounts of literature and data to back up any of the claims.* 

Yes, as the poster above stated - if you can't take fin because of the side effects, and are stuck in a corner against hairloss and all you have left is Keratene - then go for it. What do you have to lose, right? It's worth a shot to see what'll come out of it. Just don't put all your eggs in the same basket.  :Big Grin:

----------


## lucrio

I personally feel like this is a win win situation. Guys who cannot tolerate finasteride (myself included) can try this product without risking much as it is a  moderately reasonable price, determine if it is effective, then if it is effective report results and pass them onto the rest of the forum. 

No one here is naive enough to put full trust and belief into this product simply because it is advertised to work. It is simply a plan B, C, or even D for people who have exhausted the proven plan A (Finasteride). Hey, if I don't feel a $42 bag of m&ms is too expensive and want to spend my money on it to see if it stops my hair loss then why the heck not try if it is between that and doing nothing.

----------


## shredder

> Secondly, * a physician that's recommending a product that isn't FDA approved - raises questions.*  Physicians will say what I'm telling you (as a future physician)  - stick to the products that have proven scientific results with massive amounts of literature and data to back up any of the claims.


 I'm sorry, but that is - please don't take it personally - complete rubbish.

Let me give you an example: search for "DOTA PET" on Pubmed. 68-Ga-DOTA-peptides are positron emission tomography radiotracers that selectively attach to neuroendocrine tumors. They have been around for several years, EVERY half-decent nuclear medicine physician in the world (including the US) will tell you it is THE radiotracer to use for patients with these tumors (there are tons of high-quality studies available). Every major European imaging center has been using this substance for years - BUT it is still NOT approved by the FDA (much to the anger of US nuclear medicine physicians), so US patients have to travel to Europe for these scans! Don't beleive it? Ask for instance at the UCLA nuclear medicine department.

What I am trying to say (and I can give you several examples like the one above): the FDA is by no means undisputed (of course, neither is the EMA), and is often extremely slow in their actions; so lack of approval by the FDA does not really mean that much.

Back to the topic: I don't know whether or not the Keratene products will work (and I have stated this explicitly), but as someone who cannot tolerate Fin and (still having quite a lot of hair) is reluctant to try Minox because of the associated initial shed, I have few choices left (apart from Nizoral, which I already use).

----------


## Tracy C

> ...Guys who cannot tolerate finasteride (myself included) can try this product without risking much as it is a  moderately reasonable price, determine if it is effective...


 The safety of this product has not been proven anymore than the efficacy has been proven.  Neither have been appropriately proven so you don't actually know what you are risking.

----------


## Cob984

Is anyone consistently on the pills yet? I am thinking of giving it another go,
while the topicals have a voluminizing affect i am unsure of their ability to control mpb

----------


## shredder

no, I have received the capsules, but I haven't tried them yet - topicals come first.

If I see no success - at present, I think there is some moderate reduction in terms of hair loss - with the topicals, I will try the capsules.

----------


## LongWayHome

> Is anyone consistently on the pills yet? I am thinking of giving it another go,
> while the topicals have a voluminizing affect i am unsure of their ability to control mpb


 It's been a week and a few days and I'm still waiting man,
The minute I get it you'll know, same about the minute I pop it.

----------


## Cob984

alright gents, im gonna get on the capsules again, starting with 2/week + DIM 150mg everyday to get some of the weight sides in order,
Also ordered resveratrol to help with that, i will then alterate dim and resveratrol,
plan to give this a good 3-4 weeks, time to buckle down and attempt it again

----------


## JJacobs152

> I'm sorry, but that is - please don't take it personally - complete rubbish.
> 
> Let me give you an example: search for "DOTA PET" on Pubmed. 68-Ga-DOTA-peptides are positron emission tomography radiotracers that selectively attach to neuroendocrine tumors. They have been around for several years, EVERY half-decent nuclear medicine physician in the world (including the US) will tell you it is THE radiotracer to use for patients with these tumors (there are tons of high-quality studies available). Every major European imaging center has been using this substance for years - BUT it is still NOT approved by the FDA (much to the anger of US nuclear medicine physicians), so US patients have to travel to Europe for these scans! Don't beleive it? Ask for instance at the UCLA nuclear medicine department.
> 
> What I am trying to say (and I can give you several examples like the one above): the FDA is by no means undisputed (of course, neither is the EMA), and is often extremely slow in their actions; so lack of approval by the FDA does not really mean that much.
> 
> Back to the topic: I don't know whether or not the Keratene products will work (and I have stated this explicitly), but as someone who cannot tolerate Fin and (still having quite a lot of hair) is reluctant to try Minox because of the associated initial shed, I have few choices left (apart from Nizoral, which I already use).


 Nice job on finding this article. Wasn't aware of this case. I always enjoy seeing good arguments like this here on the internet.  :Smile: 

Your reasoning for not using Minox due to the initial shed is understandable. However, information and articles have been posted, stating where seeing a shed is part of the routine where the body pushes the current follicle to make room for the new incoming follicle. I should add, these aren't scientific journals, lol. 

Is Keratene claiming that there is no shed seen with their products? If that's the case, then doesn't that seem weird? Products that are showing good positive results all have the "initial shed", but do Keratene products not cause this?  :Confused:

----------


## LongWayHome

Alright people I got the pills.
Tomorrow I'll take the first pill, and...
If I'm not commenting until friday, please call 911.

----------


## clandestine

> alright gents, im gonna get on the capsules again, starting with 2/week + DIM 150mg everyday to get some of the weight sides in order,
> Also ordered resveratrol to help with that, i will then alterate dim and resveratrol,
> plan to give this a good 3-4 weeks, time to buckle down and attempt it again


 Where do you get DIM from?

----------


## Conpecia

You guys have no idea how much I hope this product does what they are claiming it does. I am so sick of fin sides but scared shitless of losing my hair. I'm also pretty damn optimistic that we're 2-3 years away from a breakthrough treatment. If I can just hold out with Keratene I will never be bald!! We need some more info on this; I guess there haven't been trials? Is there anybody reading this who's been taking the pills for a couple months? And would using them in conjunction with the shampoo work even better? So many questions and yet I'm not finding much info on other forums. 

I will literally cry tears of joy if this works like fin without sides. I'm gonna suffer through fin for another month or two, hopefully that will be enough time to get a feel for the efficacy.

----------


## Cob984

> Where do you get DIM from?


 right now im using Vitamin research products Bio DIm that i bought in singapore, however i am now in india and almost run out of that so im going to use some local DIM thats not BIODIM, so many websites dont ship DIM here because of restrictions it blows,

this is what i was using anyway:
http://www.vrp.com/mens-health/biodim

----------


## HARIRI

Guys, I just placed an order today. Im going to stop taking my HairOmega DHT supplement (Saw Palmetto+Beta Sitosterol) and start taking this one as a replacement. I hope and pray that I wont suffer from sexual sides and libido issues. Its very hard to face them if you are a married person :-(

LongWayHome, Please keep up updated Bro :-)

----------


## HARIRI

I contacted the person in charge of the company Mr. Marc Costin from Holland and he actually answered all of my questions with full confidence and asked his employee to send me further details. Here are some:-

What is Keratene?
Keratene is a a French brand invented in 1947 by a French pioneer in the cosmetic industry.
The brand was taken over by its current owner, Hairclinics Netherlands, in 2010.
The pronunciation is as such, purely French and sounds more like Ke – as in Kenya, Ra- as in Ramon, Ten – as in the number 10, and not like Keratin.
It is important that the public retains the correct spelling so that no confusion arises.

What no one heard about it?
The brand itself is rather unknown due to the fact that it is an European native product, with little exports.
Since its re-introduction in 2010, it become slightly more known.
It will take some time until the product will become more known. Given that fact that in Europe and other countries advertising of any form of medical products or dietary supplements with claims that are not approved in the directive 26, is strictly forbidden, it will takes a few years.

What is Keratene alphactive Retarde?
The product you talked about, respectively Keratene alphactive Retarde is very new, just launched last year, in Berlin, at the annual meeting of the FUE Europe society.
Keratene alphactive Retarde is a systemic 5ard enzyme catalyse inhibitor and an indirect DHT depressor (not suppressor).

How does it work?
The molecules works not by inhibiting the production of 5ard enzyme or by regulation the secretion of hormones, but rather by attaching itself by electro-chemical valence to the 5ard enzyme and acting as an insulating factor.
As such, the transfer of atoms of hydrogen to the testosterone molecule happens in a lower ratio.
This leads in turn to an overall reduction of DHT.
As such, the 5ard enzyme production and the testosterone hormone are left untouched.
The only thing which happens in a lesser amount, is the transformation of T into DHT.

How much will reduce the DHT level?
The product work on the “work on what you have” principle.
In other words, it lowers DHT dynamically, adaptable, according to the total amount of DHT available in the body. Men with very high DHT levels can expect a large reduction, with a factor of 2, 3 or 4, whereas men with little DHT, can expect a reduction with just 35 to 70&#37;.

Does it contains the usual Saw palmetto extracts?
No, Keratene alphactive Retarde does not include Saw Palmetto or any forms of commonly used plants for prostate supplements.
It is a proprietary mix of various organic substances and enzyme catalyst aggregators, not synthetically engineered.

Are there differences between KaR and finasteride?
Yes. Keratene alphactive Retarde is completely different than finasteride.
Finasteride is a synthetically engineered molecule, with specific chemical properties.
Keratene alphactive Retarde is an organic compound, not synthetically engineered.
Finasteride has the chemical potential to penetrate the blood brain barrier (see latest FDA updates on fda.gov) and has the bio-chemical potential to influence the pineal gland, the processes that coordinate the production of lutropin, the correlation of the sex-binding hormone globulin, dhea, and many other related factors.
In addition, it may increase on the long run the risk on malign prostate neoplasm with roughly 1.6%.
Because the body perceives its molecule as a foreign chemical, the metabolic processes employed by the body to follows the same pathways as any other medication (see cytokine reduction), whereas in regard to KaR, the body process the substance as an organic element.

Is it safe?
The product is safer than any other alternative available on the market today.
It does not interfere with the endocrine production of hormones, of hormone precursors, of enzymes or related peptides. It also does not influence the shbg or lutropin, fact that defines its “libido-friendly” characteristic.
In other words... enjoy the goods without the damage.
Up to date, no user reported any sort of erectile dysfunction or libido problems.

Are there side effects?
KaR may present several direct side-effects and several indirect side-effects.
They are indirect due to the fact that they are not cause by the product itself but rather by the effect of having a lower DHT level than the body is used to.
One direct side-effects is known from the use of the topical products and that is transient paresthesia (tingling of the skin). This effects is normal, known for several years and can last up to 7 hours after administration and was reported by less than 1% of the tested population.
Another potential side-effect is mild seborrhea, especially on the topical products.

Indirect side-effects, not caused by the product itself but by the reduced levels of DHT on the body are:
fatigue, reduced athletic performance, transient reversible mild cognitive impairment (TRMCI - popular "brain fog/haze"), mild head-aches, nausea.
Such effects generally dissipate after two or three weeks of administration, once the body accommodates to the new, reduced DHT levels.
Such effects are reported in less than 1% of the tested population and may have other, idiopathic causes or contributing factors as well, such as lack of proper nutrition, stress, prior underlying conditions, etc.


Is it a medical product or not?
The product is not a registered medicine in the traditional sense, like ibuprofen is for instance.
the costs associated with such registration in todays’ terms are completely prohibitive.
This is one of the major reasons that nowadays in Europe there are no small of middle-sized private pharmaceutical companies that bring innovative products on the market.
The average costs only for the safety assessment, clinical trials and registration procedure for each new product are estimated at minimum 6 million euro ( ~8 mill USD) for a period or 6 years, and this amount excludes the research and development needed prior to its public testing and application for registration.
Depending on the legislation of each country, the product is sold as dietary supplement or, in specific countries, as registered phytomedical (registered medical product based on plant extracts).
In Europe it is labeled under the applicable legislation for dietary supplements.
As such, under the current legislation, we, like many other small innovative companies, are forced to operate under the law that regulates foods, rather than medical products.
We are aware that the titling may not be very appealing or trust-inspiring for the consumer (herbs! dietary supplements!), but we must comply with the legal requirements.

To conclude, here are a few of the main key benefits:
1 fast catalyse inhibition with low bioaccumulation, free of 17-beta-estradiol disruptors
2 evident DHT reduction up to 4 times, comparable to synthetic -steride alternatives
3 ssbg/lutropin/fsh bio-chemically neutral formula, virtually no impact on libido

----------


## doke

hi guys all we really want to know does it regrow hair or not and do you need to still use minoxidil?

----------


## Cob984

> hi guys all we really want to know does it regrow hair or not and do you need to still use minoxidil?


 i suspect if you consider fin to regrow hair this will too, if not this wont either
im guessing depends on how far down hair loss is and if the follicles are miniaturized or dead

----------


## doke

hi i notice that 180 caps 3 months supply will cost about £38 eu a month which for a natural product is a bit pricey,also if you buy there complete set it is a lot if i tried it i think i would use just the caps with topical minox.

----------


## doke

hi guys if you buy 180 three months supply it is £111.38 uk pounds.

----------


## HARIRI

> hi guys all we really want to know does it regrow hair or not and do you need to still use minoxidil?


 You really need to use the Minoxidil 5% because it works differently than Keratine Alphactive Retard. Because the last one controls the affect of DHT on your follicles which somehow will halt your hair loss but of course you need a simulator that will expedite the growth of new follicles with ensuring the blood supply to the vellus hairs. So in order to grow new hair, you really have to continue using it. This product and Minoxidil will do great job in restoring your hair  :Big Grin:

----------


## HARIRI

> hi guys if you buy 180 three months supply it is &#163;111.38 uk pounds.


 Yes it is. Its much better to order the 180 caps (90 days supply) which will save more money that ordering them individually with keeping in mind the multiple shipping cost to be paid.

You can order them officially from two websites:-

http://www.keratene.eu/shop/10-syste...inst-hair-loss

http://www.prohairclinic.be/en/

----------


## doke

> Yes it is. Its much better to order the 180 caps (90 days supply) which will save more money that ordering them individually with keeping in mind the multiple shipping cost to be paid.
> 
> You can order them officially from two websites:-
> 
> http://www.keratene.eu/shop/10-syste...inst-hair-loss
> 
> http://www.prohairclinic.be/en/


 hi harira i have ordered 180 caps and with a discount you gave me a few weeks ago it was £105.56 uk pounds which im very happy with.

----------


## LongWayHome

HARIRI thank you very much for that information it was super helpful,
you are just one useful guy.
So...I got the pills yesterday and took the first one today.
I feel great right now although I had a little heart attack a few hours ago,
they took me to the hospital and the doctors only had to cut off my right hand but that is IT! The pills are great!!

aand now for real:
I'll stick with one pill a day for now, and if it won't do anything in some time I'll go on 2 pills a day, one in the morning and one in the evening, which is only meant for agressive hair loss - NW3 and up (According to the manual I got with the pills, which looks very professional btw).

----------


## HARIRI

LongWayHome, thanks for the compliment (rav todot). I'm just so interested in this product because I cant take Finasteride at all. So its my only hope to control my DHT especially i can notice some thinning in my crown area. 

I think I will follow your way, I will start with a small dose for one month around one pill a day and then gradually will upgrade to two. Just like how Finasteride users do with Proscar and Propecia.

Cant wait to lay my hands on this product and halt this hair loss :-)

----------


## Cob984

what sides were you getting on fin hariri
I am taking 1/4 of one capsule a day of keratene and still getting some sides lol

----------


## HARIRI

> what sides were you getting on fin hariri
> I am taking 1/4 of one capsule a day of keratene and still getting some sides lol


 You must be kidding me!!! Are you getting sides with Keratene? Like what??? Supposedly not sexual for sure.

Regarding FIN, the only side I got was partial impotence and loss of libido. It got more ugly by month 9  :Frown:

----------


## Cob984

yea dude havent you read my previous posts? i got sides initially on the topicals as well,
not sexual yet, im getting cognitive ones, feel a bit hazy/dazed, cant concentrate properly, and also been putting on fat in the abdomen,

----------


## HARIRI

> yea dude havent you read my previous posts? i got sides initially on the topicals as well,
> not sexual yet, im getting cognitive ones, feel a bit hazy/dazed, cant concentrate properly, and also been putting on fat in the abdomen,


 To me, its all fine. I can tolerate these. Every cure has down sides including flu tablets. However the sexual sides to me are a killer. I would never trade my libido with anything.  :Big Grin: 

However seriously a quarter pill of Keratene is very very little. I don't think it could be effective at all. Haven't you tried one pill a day or at least half pill. Common a quarter only!!!

----------


## Cob984

yea libido is important, but brain fog is as serious especially when you are studying its a major impediment for me,

keep me posted if you notice anything, and how your hair reacts

----------


## Conpecia

Excellent post HARIRI! This has convinced me to purchase Keratene. I will be using it in conjunction with capillogain tonic, as I'm hearing really good things about that. As someone who unfortunately can no longer tolerate fin, it's very positive to have this seemingly legitimate alternative for DHT inhibition. I'm praying that this holds us over to 2015 for the next generation of treatments!!

----------


## LongWayHome

Conpecia can I ask you what exactly did you hear about capillogain-tonic,
and not in this forum? Do some people in other forums report let's say..regrowth in the temples perhaps?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Can you guys start posting relevant posts about what it is like using it.

This thread is turning into too much of a theoretical thread.

----------


## Cob984

its not been out long out enough, why dont you buy some and contribute as well instead of running your mouth , noone has been on this longer than 1 week

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> its not been out long out enough, why dont you buy some and contribute as well instead of running your mouth , noone has been on this longer than 1 week


 i dont need it right now.

----------


## GuyFromUK

Please remember if you are going to get any results from this product then like finasteride you can't judge its efficacy until at least a year.

When I started on propecia even at month 7 I was still below baseline because of sheds. I didn't realise propecia was working for me until at least month 9 or 10 and it was only after about a year that I saw regrowth.

Nobody can speculate on its results, good or bad, after just a couple of weeks or months

----------


## brooks1089

UKguy...

Sure, but that's not to say members can't report sides, general experience, sheds, etc. There's still plenty to be learned in this time.

----------


## Cob984

Into week 2, now taking 0.33 of a capsule per day instead of 0.25, 
Supplementing with DIM everyday
Also using shampoo + serum - 2x week/ been on this for about 4 weeks
Use divine herbal oil 3x/week

Hair quality in crown seems better, hair feels heavier when running my hands through but front / hairline is still in crap shape, hoping the beating at my temples stops soon

Sides:
Brain fog is better, weight gain still a problem but keeping in check with DIM, no libido issues

I also use trx2 which i will in all likelihood discontinue after supply is over, MSM 4g + vitc 1-2g per day

----------


## Conpecia

Do you have mpb itch and if so has it slowed or stopped?

----------


## Cob984

i dont really have mpb itch to be honest, i sometimes itch more when i eat a crapload of bad food for ex. (dairy is all over my diet) but no i cant say i have ever had consistent mpb itch, my hair has still thinned out regardless

----------


## Conpecia

Ok, I'd ask about shedding but it's only been a week or so. Please continue to update, I'm very strongly considering this but I feel I need to just suffer through fin until a bunch of people report back with positive results. Good luck.

----------


## baldy1990

guys is it dht useless?obviously is useless for the hair but not for other parts of your body by lowering your dht is gonna affect you so i cant see that  there are no sides.Only a topical product would make the difference.Lowering your dht by pills will always be dangerous.

do you think that the sampoo is good any expirience

----------


## HARIRI

I got this from Pro Hair Clinic website, interesting:-

*New study confirms DHT lowering properties of Keratene Retard - Alternative for Finasteride*


Prohairclinic has set up a small study in corporation with the University of Gent in order to obtain more information about the effectiveness of DHT lowering properties of Keratene Retard. The University of Gent is the only facility in Belgium that can measure DHT levels accurately (using LC-MSMS).

This was a limited test, only testosterone and DHT levels where measured. Of the 13 test subjects 10 finished the study.

There were 3 woman in the test, 2 of them suffering from hair loss.  DHT lowering was not achieved by any of the female test candidates, a slight increase was measured at 2 of the 3 woman. Probably one can conclude that the cause of hair loss in 2 of the 3 woman was not related with increased DHT levels, but this was expected.

The man subjects took 1 Keratene Retard tablet per day, this is half the dose which is usually taken.

An average reduction of 25&#37; of DHT levels where measured after taking Keratene Retard for 1 week. Testosterone levels remained unchanged.

MAX = 57%

 MIN=  5%

Important : There where no reports of any side effects, not even libido problems. The woman did not report any side effects either.

Most men with elevated DHT levels will profit from Keratene Retard to surpress DHT levels and reduce or stop progressive hair loss caused by male pattern baldness (MPB). There will be some persons that will not benefit from this product, but this is no different to the other known DHT suppressors.

Keratene Retard, like Finasteride or Dutasteride, is meant for a long term treatment of MPB. The treatment is a good solution until one day there will be a final and definite solution to hair loss.

As far as we know Prohairclinic is the only clinic that has tested the products it offers by performing professional clinical trial. Trust is good, verification is better.

----------


## LongWayHome

Yea Hariri I saw that, and I'm hoping this is true.
If it is, with no sides, then I don't need to add anythnig.

----------


## HARIRI

I think I will stick with one pill a day of Keratene Alphactive Retard and follow exactly what they did in the study as a start.  :Wink: 

So just like what Black Eyed Peas said *"Lets get Retarded"*  :Big Grin:

----------


## Cob984

you guys not having any sides at all? lucky swines,
I am into day 4 of 0.33 / day and the increased dosage is defn helping my hair, my hair looks bloody brilliant today, cant stop looking at it in the mirror, on the downside im feeling more tired and bloated in general through the day, hopefully this stabilizes like it did at the 0.25 mg dose

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

I had terrible shedding/itching/ and some mild but present sexual side effects the 6months i was on fin. Off fin, I have almost no itch. I lost a ton of ground while on fin, which is the main reason I stopped, not so much the sexual sides. Any clue if this product would trigger the same kind of response? 

I know there are a lot of people on here who had similar situations, to where fin seemed to kick MPB into overdrive with an up-regulation of DHT to balance the supression, causing increased speed of loss. I would think any suppression of DHT would cause this to happen again, but just curious to hear thoughts.

----------


## Jcm800

> you guys not having any sides at all? lucky swines,
> I am into day 4 of 0.33 / day and the increased dosage is defn helping my hair, my hair looks bloody brilliant today, cant stop looking at it in the mirror, on the downside im feeling more tired and bloated in general through the day, hopefully this stabilizes like it did at the 0.25 mg dose


 Eh? You're day four into this and you're hair is looking 'bloody brilliant' already?!

----------


## Cob984

> Eh? You're day four into this and you're hair is looking 'bloody brilliant' already?!


 im in consecutive day 12 bro,  ( in reality been off and on almost 4 weeks, took gaps in the middle)

in day 4 of 0.33/day as opposed to 0.25

----------


## Jcm800

> im in consecutive day 12 bro,  ( in reality been off and on almost 4 weeks, took gaps in the middle)
> 
> in day 4 of 0.33/day as opposed to 0.25


 And in that time you've really seen some improvement yes? Remind me, what exactly are you taking mate? Is it the capsules?

----------


## Cob984

> And in that time you've really seen some improvement yes? Remind me, what exactly are you taking mate? Is it the capsules?


 My hair quality is improved, it feels heavier when i run my hand through, but my temples, hairline is still not good,
i also use the serum+shampoo 2x week but those only gave me a short lasting after wash affect,

----------


## LongWayHome

Well Cob my friend, I understand so much the need to update here every day,
it gives you the feeling that something happens, but the truth is we can't judge nothing until at least a few months.
The topicals maybe a few weeks, I don't know, but the capsules...
at least 3 months and even that a little fast.

I'm in my 4th day on the Keratene pills, taking 1 each morning.
The only things I assume I can see in the coming few weeks are side effects which I hope I won't. Anyway shedding I'll be glad to get, cuz then I'll understand it's working.

----------


## baldy1990

1)why is this in the future treatments section

2)do you think that the sampoo will reverse the process?did anyone of you use it?is it worthy?

----------


## Cob984

Mate, I am not saying my mpb stopped miraculously in a few weeks, all i am saying my hair is heavier, its for sure, and i have been on the topicals for almost 2 months now,

On the shampoo, its not useful on its own, u gota use the serum with it, but to be honest im not convinced the topicals are enough on their own,

----------


## baldy1990

> Mate, I am not saying my mpb stopped miraculously in a few weeks, all i am saying my hair is heavier, its for sure, and i have been on the topicals for almost 2 months now,
> 
> On the shampoo, its not useful on its own, u gota use the serum with it, but to be honest im not convinced the topicals are enough on their own,


 why the say that you need to be over 25 to use the serum i'm confused

----------


## HARIRI

I agree with Cob984. Topicals aren't enough at all. You should guarantee a perfect absorption with effective vehicle and especially for Minoxidil users they may find it hard to apply another topical. Pills are more guaranteed and effective for example take a look at Propecia. We need a mix of Oral and Topical. Thats why I'm taking the Keratene pill along with topical minoxidil :-)

Cob984 and LongWayHome, thanks for sharing your experience with Keratene Alphactive Retard. It is highly appreciated. I will soon join you once Its delivered to me. I ordered 3 months supply which will last for 6 months as I will be taking one pill a day just like LongWayHome :-)

----------


## shredder

> 1)why is this in the future treatments section
> 
> 2)do you think that the sampoo will reverse the process?did anyone of you use it?is it worthy?


 I've been using the shampoo (6/7 days a week) and the ultra complex (every other day) for three weeks. My first impression is quite good, but I will only give a full after the first month, and then update every month.

----------


## LongWayHome

Thank you Shredder I didn't know you're using it too.

----------


## Rogerrabbit

I received the pills a few days ago, and had the ultra topical a couple of weeks back. I've started on the topical, but I keep looking at the (still unopened) bottle and remembering my nightmare with fin. I would be really grateful if anyone on the Keratene pills would let us know how it plays with the sides, especially someone who has had problems with fin. Cheers, and good luck to everyone!

----------


## doke

hi i received my keratene pills yesterday 3 months supply i have not ordered the topicals as i use minox.

----------


## Cob984

The experience is going south for me now since 0.33 capsule/day, i feel tired all day, starting to put on weight again inspite of DIM, libido is tanking,
im hoping this is temporary and will go back to 0.25/day and try to hang in there

----------


## HARIRI

Cob984, Are you sure of this? With using less than a capsule a day only? This is the first libido issue I heard from using this product!!!

----------


## Cob984

yup completely sure, brain fog like symptoms are returning too, im not doing well this week at all,
How many people are using this? not that many so the first isnt a shock

----------


## shredder

cob hmm that's bad news - just libido or also erectile dysfunction?

----------


## shredder

btw cob, I remember tracy suggesting that you have a commercial interest in keratene - if that is the case, you are one horrible salesman(sorry, couldn't resist  :Wink:  ).

----------


## Cob984

im putting on weight on my lower abdomen, i am not mentally sharp last few days, 
lower libido, tried watching some porno yest, couldnt maintain long at all, 
im back on 0.25 / day now, will report in a few days again otherwise might have to give this the drop

----------


## shredder

cob, one word: sh1t.

----------


## Ibrium

Is there a list of ingredients anywhere for the shampoo/conditioner/topical? I'm not really keen to spend a lot of money anywhere before I can see what's in it. A lot of ingredients in those kinds of products can cause problems for me.

----------


## HARIRI

> im back on 0.25 / day now


 COB984, I'm just wondering. How can you take 0.25 / day??? Keratene Alphactive Retard is a gelatine capsule and not a tablet. Its impossible to cut a capsule into smaller pieces??? Can you explain that to us please???  :Confused:

----------


## Cob984

open capsule, empty contents,

----------


## HARIRI

Open the capsules !!!  :EEK!:

----------


## HARIRI

> open capsule, empty contents,


 
Fine but how can you be sure that its 0.25 or 0.33? How can you measure that???  :Confused:

----------


## HARIRI

Cob984, read this article

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/20...t_15074199.htm

and this as well

http://www.nevdgp.org.au/files/prima...ng_tablets.pdf

----------


## Cob984

thanks bro, starting to think its a bad idea myself, i will now have them 2wice a week whole

----------


## doke

been on mine 2 a day one in morning and one at night and no problems as yet cannot report any more as its only been a few days.

----------


## HARIRI

> thanks bro, starting to think its a bad idea myself, i will now have them 2wice a week whole


 This is much better. Try to take one pill every other day to benefit from it. I dont think it will do you any good if you are lowering the dose a lot. Remember Its not as strong as Finastride so you don't really need to worry.   :Smile:

----------


## HARIRI

> been on mine 2 a day one in morning and one at night and no problems as yet cannot report any more as its only been a few days.


 Great news doke, I'm still waiting for my supply to come. I still insist to take a pill everyday and then gradually go to twice a day. Lets fight DHT. Good luck Doke.  :Wink:

----------


## GuyFromUK

Is there anywhere in this companies marketing material to show any positive results of this product?

It seems from what I have read that they are claiming it reduces DHT but they aren't suggesting it helps hair loss.

You would think that If it does help with hairloss then they would include this on their site. It's very odd that they omit this.

----------


## shredder

no they have no such results - they just have results that show their products (or, more accurately, the capsules) reduce DHT. but indirectly, of course, this means that is *should* have some effect on hairloss, due to the known relationship between DHT and hair loss.

----------


## GuyFromUK

Saw Palmetto has been shown to reduce DHT but is now widely accepted as not being of any benefit in fighting hairloss.

I think this product might reduce DHT to some extent but the fact they don't even suggest it helps hair probably means it doesn't.

----------


## LongWayHome

"KÉRATENE® alphactive Retard provides an appropriate control mechanism for the progressive thinning of hair caused by hormonal and genetic factors, with potential applications in the trichologic field for the for the maintenance of the existing hair density"

So if they don't say it helps hair loss, what do they say exactly?

----------


## thechamp

> im putting on weight on my lower abdomen, i am not mentally sharp last few days, 
> lower libido, tried watching some porno yest, couldnt maintain long at all, 
> im back on 0.25 / day now, will report in a few days again otherwise might have to give this the drop


 Corbi fat burner I'm going to go to the body building shop and take fat burner you tried it?

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

TBH I think you guys need to get your DHT levels checked.

Cob it could be the reason why you are getting sides is because your DHT levels are already low. As you are inducing less DHT now then with fin.

Only explanation.

----------


## Cob984

> TBH I think you guys need to get your DHT levels checked.
> 
> Cob it could be the reason why you are getting sides is because your DHT levels are already low. As you are inducing less DHT now then with fin.
> 
> Only explanation.


 Nope, not the reason, had my dht levels checked in november, they were 990, with range being 200-950 or something

----------


## HARIRI

I will try to measure my DHT level today before starting the treatment although it is very costly here around $120 per test  :EEK!: . They need to send my samples to France for the DHT level test and results will be ready in 2 weeks! However after finishing my 3 months supply I will do another test. BTW How much does a DHT test cost in your country?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Stublue

Hey all, interesting thread. 

I have ordered 180 capsules today so will keep everyone informed too. Just had a HT with Dr. Bisanga last week (2,093 grafts to hairline) and really want to maintain what I have. Suffered from lower libido from Fin and stopped taking it 5 months ago (still slightly suffering but improving slowly). 

Will continue to use minoxidil too.

----------


## shredder

good to hear more people are trying the capsules - please don't forget to report back, in particular with regard to sides.

----------


## HARIRI

> good to hear more people are trying the capsules - please don't forget to report back, in particular with regard to sides.


 So its 7 of us now trying this product

cob984 - conpecia - longwayhome - doke - rogerrabit - stublue and ME.  :Big Grin:

----------


## shredder

there are also a few guys in the german forum (alopezie.de). If I read anything of interest there, I will let you know.

----------


## Conpecia

> So its 7 of us now trying this product
> 
> cob984 - conpecia - longwayhome - doke - rogerrabit - stublue and ME.


 I'm not on it yet. I was right about to pull the trigger but got cold feet because my shedding has increased significantly since stopping fin for two months due to sides. Unfortunately I'm back on fin at low doses. Sides aren't as bad this time but if we get good news from Keratene I'm making the jump. As of now I can't afford to risk it and lose more hair. I'm at the last stage before it really gets noticeable.

----------


## Conpecia

> Hey all, interesting thread. 
> 
> I have ordered 180 capsules today so will keep everyone informed too. Just had a HT with Dr. Bisanga last week (2,093 grafts to hairline) and really want to maintain what I have. Suffered from lower libido from Fin and stopped taking it 5 months ago (still slightly suffering but improving slowly). 
> 
> Will continue to use minoxidil too.


 Did Bisanga recommend this? Have you spoken to him about Keratene? Any info of that nature will be extremely important to us.

----------


## FearTheLoss

Where are you guys getting your supply? I want to start it too, I had bad sides with fin.

----------


## HARIRI

You can get it from the official website

http://www.keratene.eu/shop/index.php

or from here

http://www.prohairclinic.be/en/

----------


## Stublue

Dr. Bisanga did not recommend it. I mentioned it to the BHR rep Steve and he said to give it a try. He is aware that Prohair sells it and he would like to think they are ethical and they are selling it due to good evidence. Apparently he had a conversation with Dr. Bisanga recently on Keratene and he was of the same opinion in that the jury is still out but thinks it might be worth a go.

----------


## HARIRI

Stublue, I remember that Stephen once told me that he is taking Saw Palmetto 500mg per day. He doesnt like any chemical stuff like Finasteride.

----------


## Stublue

Yeah he doesn't take Fin as I believe he suffered from lower libido i believe. Think he had to reduce the levels of saw palmetto too but i could be wrong.

----------


## shredder

UPDATE:

I've been on the topicals  for exactely one month now: shampoo 5/7 days a week (in the morning, leaving it on for about 10 min), ultra complex every other day (in the evening; leaving it on for 30-60 min).

so far I am quite happy with it. similar to what others have stated, daily hairloss has decreased: before I started using it, I would have several hairs in my hands (10-15 approximately) when running my hands through my hair during shampooing. Now it is 2-3 hairs, quite an improvement. And I also don't seem to lose much during the course of the day.

my original plan was to use the keratene shampoo every day, but unfortunately after 3 consecutive days of using it (which makes my hair look thicker and feel heavier) my hair becomes a bit greasy - being a sulfate-free shampoo it simply does not have the "cleaning" effect that sulfate-containing shampoos have, not even if I use a really large amount of it. therefore, I now use nizoral once a week, and another, milder sufate-containing shampoo also once a week.

If I can keep my rate of hair loss at that level, I will - still having quite a lot of hair at the age of 33 - probably stick with this, also because I do not experience any sides (in particular, no libido loss, no erectile dysfunction, no brain fog).

I will keep you updated.

----------


## hellouser

> UPDATE:
> 
> I've been on the topicals  for exactely one month now: shampoo 5/7 days a week (in the morning, leaving it on for about 10 min), ultra complex every other day (in the evening; leaving it on for 30-60 min).
> 
> so far I am quite happy with it. similar to what others have stated, daily hairloss has decreased: before I started using it, I would have several hairs in my hands (10-15 approximately) when running my hands through my hair during shampooing. Now it is 2-3 hairs, quite an improvement. And I also don't seem to lose much during the course of the day.
> 
> my original plan was to use the keratene shampoo every day, but unfortunately after 3 consecutive days of using it (which makes my hair look thicker and feel heavier) my hair becomes a bit greasy - being a sulfate-free shampoo it simply does not have the "cleaning" effect that sulfate-containing shampoos have, not even if I use a really large amount of it. therefore, I now use nizoral once a week, and another, milder sufate-containing shampoo also once a week.
> 
> If I can keep my rate of hair loss at that level, I will - still having quite a lot of hair at the age of 33 - probably stick with this, also because I do not experience any sides (in particular, no libido loss, no erectile dysfunction, no brain fog).
> ...


 Now add some RU and CB into the mix and you'll look like Chewbacca.

----------


## ajays

Hariri, 

Have you received the Keratene capsules yet? I had ordered couple of weeks back and still haven't received (destination USA). The shipping option that they are using right now is dead slow.

----------


## ihavebeenchosenithasbegun

You guys are basically trialing for others.

If you guys get the same sides, ouch  for Keratene retard.

----------


## ajays

Guys,
I recently have ordered the Keratene retard capsules. Want to at least give it a try before jumping on the Fin bandwagon. Made the decision after reading through various posts in this and other forums. 

Particular there is a user named kerajason who posts on a body building forum (link below). He has been part of the trials and highly recommends the product. I have found his posts to be very encouraging. Also have started PMs with him and have found his answers to be quite realistic and not over the top. Have requested him to be part of this forum, hopefully he will join this forum and share his information. 

I will keep you guys updated once I receive the capsules.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1003882143

----------


## HARIRI

> Hariri, 
> 
> Have you received the Keratene capsules yet? I had ordered couple of weeks back and still haven't received (destination USA). The shipping option that they are using right now is dead slow.


 Ajays, I have received the product three days ago. I waited for it for 2 weeks almost. Well, I have been on it since three days and I got ZERO sides. I feel just like the time I was taking my herbal supplement HairOmega DHT (Saw Palmetto 450mg + Beta Sitosterol 450mg). Im taking one capsule before bedtime. If you want a faster shipping next time then try to order it from ProHairClinic website as they are dealing with DHL for shipping. Hope everything will stay the same with me. Fingers crossed  :Big Grin: 

I contacted Keratene asking them the dosage of Sterols in their product, they answered me its not more than 3g/day which is the maximum dose by Medical Boards in Europe. Anything above that can affect negatively on the metabolism of Vitamin A. So if Im taking one capsule only then I may guess that my dosage is around 1.5g/day as the recommended dosage of the product is (2 capsules per day).

----------


## ajays

Fantastic!!
According to kerajason, improvements can be expected after about 3-4 weeks. Hope this thing works!




> Ajays, I have received the product three days ago. I waited for it for 2 weeks almost. Well, I have been on it since three days and I got ZERO sides. I feel just like the time I was taking my herbal supplement HairOmega DHT (Saw Palmetto 450mg + Beta Sitosterol 450mg). Im taking one capsule before bedtime. If you want a faster shipping next time then try to order it from ProHairClinic website as they are dealing with DHL for shipping. Hope everything will stay the same with me. Fingers crossed 
> 
> I contacted Keratene asking them the dosage of Sterols in their product, they answered me its not more than 3g/day which is the maximum dose by Medical Boards in Europe. Anything above that can affect negatively on the metabolism of Vitamin A. So if Im taking one capsule only then I may guess that my dosage is around 1.5g/day as the recommended dosage of the product is (2 capsules per day).

----------


## Conpecia

We definitely need that Kerajason guy over here. He knows his stuff. I think Keratene, Capillogain (or Lipogaine or another Minox), and Niz could be a very solid regimen to hold those of us who are NW2.5 and less over for a few years. 

HARIRI did you have your DHT level tested?

----------


## DifferentLine

Are we supposed to be able to expect any kind of minor regrowth from this, or is it just purely for maintenance?

----------


## ajays

Mostly maintenance and some minor regrowth, no major regrowth as per feedback.

----------


## HARIRI

> HARIRI did you have your DHT level tested?


 Yes I did, my results will be ready in two weeks. Its bloody expensive as they have to send my samples to France for testing. Unfortunately we don't have a facility for DHT testing here.

----------


## HARIRI

> Are we supposed to be able to expect any kind of minor regrowth from this, or is it just purely for maintenance?


 Its for maintenance and slowing the progress of hair loss. Minoxidil is the one for regrowth as it will work perfectly with Keratene Alphactive Retard or even Finasteride  :Big Grin:

----------


## ajays

Hey Hariri,

Guess you have been taking the pills for a week now? Any feedback?
Any side effects (fatigue, etc) or positive aspects (i know maybe too early to tell but still).

----------


## HARIRI

Believe it or not. NOTHING. I got no sides at all. My body tolerate it very well. I have been taking Beta Sitosterol for years and now with Keratene's Sterol Complex I feel exactly the same. But bare in mind that I am taking one capsule a day and not two.

----------


## ajays

Yeah - better to start with one per day and see how it goes. I am still waiting for my capsules to arrive, hopefully in a day or too.

Have they indicated what to avoid while taking these capsules. If I recall from some post, they recommend not to consume saw palmetto at the same time?

----------


## HARIRI

You should avoid anything that can lower DHT significantly. For example reduce your intake of Soy Sauce if you love to eat Asian like me as it contains S-Equol. Avoid Saw Palmetto completely as well.  However there is no harm in adding supplements like vitamins for health benefits. I'm taking Vitamin B-Complex with Zinc every morning ;-) ...

----------


## ajays

Thanks. 

- How about multi-vitamin tabs (as opposed to just Vit B and zinc)?
- Also, will it be ok to take biotin tabs?

----------


## HARIRI

All types of Vitamens are safe to be taken with this product. For your info. Bioten is considered as a Vitamen B7, its a part of the B-Complex which I believe considered the most effective vitamen for hair but you don't need higher than 1000mg as the human body needs only 300mg. All what you need to do is to avoid Anti DHT stuff like Saw Palmetto, Beta Sitosterol, Stinging nettle, Pygeum Africanum or Soy products which contain S-Equol.

----------


## Cob984

you are lucky hariri, i dont think i can remain on this much longer, my gyno seems to be flaring up again, im having a tingling sensation in the nipple again along with the increase in fat, very worrying since i just had removal surgery 6 months ago

----------


## LongWayHome

Alright people...an update:

...It's been 2 weeks since i've started using the capsules, no sides or something like that. Today
I'm going to use for the first time the topicals either.
This is the complete regimen of Keratene, the most powerful thing 
from them. I'm using the shampoo and the Serum. 
The ultra something is stronger I guess but whatever...
As for me i think the topicals won't do anything but good looking hair which is very nice but not helping for the long term..On the other hand maybe the combination of the topicals with the capsules which is systematic AND minox that I use for about a year, WILL get me to somewhere...
If not.................This is the FIN-ale...(countdown)

(Or I'll just go on RU...)

----------


## HARIRI

LongWayHome, Were you taking 2 capsules a day? About using Keratene serum along with capsules, I don't think it is a good idea. You can use the shampoo but wont advice the serum. Its for the reason that 2 capsules of Keratene have the maximum recommended dosage of Sterols 3g/day so with adding the serum then you may have some issues. Try to communicate with the main company in order to ask them if its safe to use the capsules and serum together as they have similar key ingredients.

My advice is that you stick with the capsules and use Regaine for some growth. You can add the shampoo to the regime but wont advice to use the serum as well. Serum is an option for the ones who aren't comfortable with the oral stuff.

----------


## LongWayHome

Wow, good to know! thank you man!
I started with 1 capsule but 2 days ago I started with two capsules a day.

I'll ask the company about the combination.

Btw, what is sterol exactly?

----------


## HARIRI

Natural Sterol Complex is a comprehensive formulation of the most powerful anabolic plant sterols, lipotropics, electrolytes and much more. 

One of its main ingredients is Beta Sitosterol which is  is one of several phytosterols (plant sterols) with chemical structures similar to that of cholesterol. Sitosterols are white, waxy powders with a characteristic odor. They are hydrophobic and soluble in alcohols. Also it is a substance found naturally in a number of foods, including soy, flaxseed, peanuts, olive oil, and many fruits and vegetables. It is widely distributed in the plant kingdom and found in Nigella sativa, pecans, Serenoa repens (saw palmetto), avocados, Cucurbita pepo (pumpkin seed), Pygeum africanum, cashew fruit, rice bran, wheat germ, corn oils, soybeans, sea-buckthorn, wolfberries, and Wrightia tinctoria.[citation needed] It is also found in dandelion coffee.

LongWayHome, So how do you feel after upgrading from one capsule a day to two?

Im taking one capsule a day and applying Regaine (Rogaine) once a day as well with some Vitamen B complex & Biotin :-)

----------


## LongWayHome

So what's the role of the sterol in stopping hair loss exactly?

About the capsules, I don't think I feel anything, It's still too early.
I also think that if Fin has to be taken for at least 6 months if you want to judge it efficacy, then why would Keratene be different?
Maybe I even need to get a shed. Who knows...

----------


## HARIRI

Read this http://www.livestrong.com/article/17...eat-hair-loss/

And watch this video to learn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1Tc6rSetwA

----------


## ajays

Received the Keratene retard capsules today. Must say, very professional packaging and documentation, doesnt look "retarded" at all  :Smile: 

Day 1 starts today!!

----------


## everest13

I've been on the capsules for 18 days now, taking them once a day.
My dht levels were 1.08 nmol/L (312 pg/ml) with the reference range being 0.323 - 1.637 before starting any capsules.  im 22 years old and it seems like i have high sensitivity to dht since my levels were within the normal range?

im losing hair at a pretty fast pace too =[ at like norwood 3 with thinning all over on top of my hair. Would taking the capsules once a day even be enough to help me considering it probably wont decrease the dht levels by that much?

i've also been using rogaine foam once a day for 6 months.

----------


## ajays

Could it be that your case is not DHT related? Have you been to a doc to take an opinion?

----------


## HARIRI

everest13, 312 pg/ml is a little number. I guess its indeed because of the high sensitivity which means that Finasteride and Keratene wont work with you and that your only solution is Minoxidil. In my case, I restored a lot of hair when I was using Propecia (Finasteride) which means that my DHT level were high. That is why I didn't have any doubts when I purchased Keratene as lowering DHT is my main target.

----------


## everest13

> Could it be that your case is not DHT related? Have you been to a doc to take an opinion?


 Doctors on the NHS ( uk) said its completely normal to lose hair and were pretty unhelpful. Can there be other reasons for hairloss? my dad is bald, and my moms side uncles are bald too . so it seems to run in the family.

Rogaine hasnt slowed down my hairloss since i've still been receding and losing it. Does this mean finasteride won't do anything for me either as well as keratene since my levels are in the normal rangte?

----------


## ajays

Have you faced any stress in the recent past? It could probably be just telogen effluvium. Just a thought....

----------


## clandestine

> Have you faced any stress in the recent past? It could probably be just telogen effluvium. Just a thought....


 Literally no one has TE.

----------


## clandestine

> Doctors on the NHS ( uk) said its completely normal to lose hair and were pretty unhelpful. Can there be other reasons for hairloss? my dad is bald, and my moms side uncles are bald too . so it seems to run in the family.
> 
> Rogaine hasnt slowed down my hairloss since i've still been receding and losing it. Does this mean finasteride won't do anything for me either as well as keratene since my levels are in the normal rangte?


 No. Finasteride could work for you. Minox isn't supposed to slow hair loss progression, it's a growth stimulant.

----------


## everest13

> No. Finasteride could work for you. Minox isn't supposed to slow hair loss progression, it's a growth stimulant.


 Wouldnt it be safer for me to increase the dosage of keratene as opposed to using finasteride?

----------


## ajays

Just curious, why would Finasteride be taken if the DHT is already at low levels?

Thanks.




> No. Finasteride could work for you. Minox isn't supposed to slow hair loss progression, it's a growth stimulant.

----------


## HARIRI

I agree with Everest13, stay away from this drug. If DHT isnt your problem then why risk yourself with chemical stuff that can affect your libido one day. Just increase your keratene dose to two capsules as recommended to maintain what you have, continue using minoxidil once a day to stimulate the hair growth and keep praying for future medications to come in 2015.

----------


## Jasari

> I agree with Everest13, stay away from this drug. If DHT isnt your problem then why risk yourself with chemical stuff that can affect your libido one day. Just increase your keratene dose to two capsules as recommended to maintain what you have, continue using minoxidil once a day to stimulate the hair growth and keep praying for future medications to come in 2015.


 Whats your experience with sides from Minox? I'd love to have an over the counter treatment and I wouldn't take any internal dht inhibitor.

----------


## hellouser

> Whats your experience with sides from Minox? I'd love to have an over the counter treatment and *I wouldn't take any internal dht inhibitor.*


 Try taking RU or CB.

----------


## unwheel

Could someone tell me what the delivery packaging is like? I know it's stupid but I don't want anyone else seeing 'KÉRATENE® ALPHACTIVE RETARD' or 'HARILOSS' in a massive font on the box and asking me about it.

----------


## shredder

hi unwheel, had the same concers but don't worry, the brand name is not displayed anywhere on the box.

----------


## Stublue

Got the capsules and shampoo last week so have been on them for 3 days. Obviously no impact as of yet but will make sure to update the forum.  I'm also applying minox liquid (have been for the last year or so). 

As people have already said, the packaging looks very professional but the proof is in the results!!

----------


## ajays

I dont think it's advisable to use the shampoo and minox, even if you plan to use them one or more days apart. There is always the risk of chemical shock with 2 topicals trying to do the same thing.If minox is working for you, then I would say just take the capsules along with it. I have been taking the capsules for couple of days now. Too early to say but so far no side effects.

On the topic of minox, I have finally established that I am allergic to minoxidil (what luck !). I have tried some options - minox with PG, minox without PG (foam), etc. But I end up getting itchy and rashes on my arms, under arms, chest and neck. Also, started getting wrinkles, puffy eyes (fluid retention) and dry lips. Looked like I aged five years or more. 

- Has anyone on this forum experienced same issue? 
- I used the dermaroller alongwith minox. Do you think because of that more amount of minox entered the bloodstream? 
- Any recommendations on topical alternatives for minox? i.e nanoxidil, laser comb etc. I know the Keratene shampoo is an alternative but I guess it is primarily for maintenance rather than new growth.

Thanks!






> Got the capsules and shampoo last week so have been on them for 3 days. Obviously no impact as of yet but will make sure to update the forum.  I'm also applying minox liquid (have been for the last year or so). 
> 
> As people have already said, the packaging looks very professional but the proof is in the results!!

----------


## Cob984

laser comb is rubbish, i got the same sides + palpitations on minox,

Maybe capillogain, i might try that for my hairline soon

----------


## Conpecia

Minox did the same for me. I'm gonna try capillogain. No minox in it but something similar, however even that ingredient is at a smaller dose.

----------


## HARIRI

I strongly agree with ajays, if you use Minoxidil then only take Keratene capsules. Do not combine two topicals that has same purpose as its not advisable. 

Guys if you suffer from basic sides then you can reduce the minoxidil from twice a day to once a day before bedtime and see how things if work.

However if Minoxdil isn't good for you at all then I would strongly advice to go for DNC NANOXIDIL. It was formulated for users that suffer sides from their Minoxidil product. I think it is better than Capillogain. You can read about Nanoxidil in this link:-

http://www.dslaboratories.ro/interna...-vs-minoxidil/

----------


## ajays

Hariri,

Thanks. I have been using minox only once every night. Initially for a month, I was fine, then I read somewhere that using derma roller would help to increase minoxidil absorption. After some weeks, I started getting these issues. Now I am confused whether it is minoxidil by itself or because of the increased absorption due to dermaroller. I am going to experiment with small amount of minoxidil foam without using the dermaroller. If it still doesnt work I will check out capillogain or spectral DNC-N (from the reviews on nanoxidil it seems there are indeed no side effects but havent heard many positive reviews on hair regrowth or manintenance, lets see...in any case, need to have some topical applied, only Keratene capsules or propecia is not going to help).

All in all, I have realized how toxic these chemicals can be, especially I think the PG is like poison. My rashes were the worst while using minox with PG. I would recommend everyone on this forum to re-evaluate whether you really need to use minox with PG and maybe switch to foam? Things may be working for you now, but this toxic stuff is bound to affect in the long run. Lately I have been hearing about Lipogaine being the best minoxidil and many users recommend it, but really, do we want to use stuff from a "company" which has no registered presence on the internet or unregulated? God knows what they are putting in there to get short term benefits!!! Sorry for the rant, had to get it out....






> I strongly agree with ajays, if you use Minoxidil then only take Keratene capsules. Do not combine two topicals that has same purpose as its not advisable. 
> 
> Guys if you suffer from basic sides then you can reduce the minoxidil from twice a day to once a day before bedtime and see how things if work.
> 
> However if Minoxdil isn't good for you at all then I would strongly advice to go for DNC NANOXIDIL. It was formulated for users that suffer sides from their Minoxidil product. I think it is better than Capillogain. You can read about Nanoxidil in this link:-
> 
> http://www.dslaboratories.ro/interna...-vs-minoxidil/

----------


## Conpecia

Thanks HARIRI, I'll do some investigating on Nanoxidil, as my one worry with Capillogain is that there doesn't seem to be a consistent product; people are reporting substantial variation among each batch, and there is a lot of miscommunication between their employees. I'd hate to get started on it only to find out they're going out of business. Still, there have been several positive reports on its effectiveness, and if Nanoxidil isn't providing any regrowth to forum members it may not be a compelling substitute. I'll check it out either way.

I also have a question for anyone who's been on Keratene for a few weeks:

Have any of you noticed a decrease in shedding? I know it's very early in the game, but when I took propecia it completely stopped my hairloss in about three weeks I believe. This is the main indicator of efficacy in my opinion; if in a couple months everyone is still losing the same amount of hair, it will be difficult for me to believe Keratene works.

----------


## Cob984

Dunno about hair for sure yet but its bludgeoning me with sides especially weight gain, putting on lots of abdomen fat and also chest fat, freaking out about a possible gyno bout

Considering ordering Forma stanzol to counter

----------


## Conpecia

> Dunno about hair for sure yet but its bludgeoning me with sides especially weight gain, putting on lots of abdomen fat and also chest fat, freaking out about a possible gyno bout
> 
> Considering ordering Forma stanzol to counter


 Jesus don't tell me this stuff can cause gyno, that's the whole reason I got off Fin to begin with. I swear I'm cursed with this hairloss treatment stuff, just want to take something to maintain without risking gyno, no clue why I keep getting it...

Are there any lumps under your nips or any soreness there? Could just be fat, if it's gyno you will feel a toothache kind of pain under your nips accompanied by puffiness, tenderness and generally a lump.

----------


## Cob984

Just ordered  forma stanzol

There is some small tissue but i dont know if this is just the remnant, because i had gyno surgery last year, usually not all tissue is removed,
I can see puffiness but iv always kinda had puffiness, sometimes i get a pain off and on but then it goes away its not regular, dunno i am gona see few more weeks and get on forma and assess

----------


## ihavebeenchosenithasbegun

Anyone got brain fog from it?

This will be a big achievement and a step forward in away if it gives no sides. And more people will probably opted for this instead of fin, but I have a feeling it gives the same sides or isn't as effective..

----------


## burtandernie

How does changing DHT levels in any way shape or form not just mimic what propecia does? Why would it not have sides if it was strong enough to do anything for MPB in the first place. Im not convinced 25 percent DHT inhibition is enough to stop MPB which again is why propecia is stronger and causes the sides.

----------


## HARIRI

> Anyone got brain fog from it?
> 
> This will be a big achievement and a step forward in away if it gives no sides. And more people will probably opted for this instead of fin, but I have a feeling it gives the same sides or isn't as effective..


 I didn't have any sides at all not even a brain fog, I will almost finish two weeks. They only thing you may face is transient paresthesia (tingling of the skin). However this does not affect as I'm taking one capsule before bed time so I wont sense it at all but just mild feeling in the morning. I had the tingling sensation around my stomach area. 

Its much safer than Finasteride. Read this please. I got this answer for Mr. Marc Costin from Keratene.

_Are there differences between KaR (Keratene Alphactive Retard) and Finasteride?

Yes. K&#233;ratene alphactive Retarde is completely different than finasteride.
Finasteride is a synthetically engineered molecule, with specific chemical properties.
K&#233;ratene alphactive Retarde is an organic compound, not synthetically engineered.
Finasteride has the chemical potential to penetrate the blood brain barrier (see latest FDA updates on fda.gov) and has the bio-chemical potential to influence the pineal gland, the processes that coordinate the production of lutropin, the correlation of the sex-binding hormone globulin, dhea, and many other related factors.
In addition, it may increase on the long run the risk on malign prostate neoplasm with roughly 1.6&#37;.
Because the body perceives its molecule as a foreign chemical, the metabolic processes employed by the body to follows the same pathways as any other medication (see cytokine reduction), whereas in regard to KaR, the body process the substance as an organic element.

Is it safe?

The product is safer than any other alternative available on the market today.
It does not interfere with the endocrine production of hormones, of hormone precursors, of enzymes or related peptides. It also does not influence the shbg or lutropin, fact that defines its “libido-friendly” characteristic.
In other words... enjoy the goods without the damage.
Up to date, no user reported any sort of erectile dysfunction or libido problems.

Are there side effects?

KaR may present several direct side-effects and several indirect side-effects.
They are indirect due to the fact that they are not cause by the product itself but rather by the effect of having a lower DHT level than the body is used to.

One direct side-effects is known from the use of the topical products and that is transient paresthesia (tingling of the skin). This effects is normal, known for several years and can last up to 7 hours after administration and was reported by less than 1% of the tested population.

Another potential side-effect is mild seborrhea, especially on the topical products.

Indirect possible side-effects, not caused by the product itself but by the reduced levels of DHT on the body with any other product are:
fatigue, reduced athletic performance, transient reversible mild cognitive impairment (TRMCI - popular "brain fog/haze"), mild head-aches, nausea.
_
Also to tell you the truth, when I quitted Saw Palmetto and started Keratene Alphactive Retard, my libido got higher and my erections got stronger. I think Saw Palmetto was affecting a bit on it. That what I feel really these days.  :Big Grin: 




> How does changing DHT levels in any way shape or form not just mimic what propecia does? Why would it not have sides if it was strong enough to do anything for MPB in the first place. Im not convinced 25 percent DHT inhibition is enough to stop MPB which again is why propecia is stronger and causes the sides.


 I will say it again, this supplement got never be as effective as Propecia. Finasteride is still the king when it comes to lowering DHT because its a chemical compound. However Keratene can reduce from 35% to 70% maximum, it depends upon your dose and how your body response to it. In my opinion, I cant really take Finasteride so taking Keratene is better than nothing because Saw Palemtto is still unknown and remained without a serious study. Main goal is to depress DHT and save some hair until the future medications like Histogen and Aderans comes by 2015 hopefully. However you still need to use Minoxidil in order to keep the growth process active. About your question about why Propecia cause sides, you can read my answer above (my reply to ihavebeenchosenithasbegun).  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

> I didn't have any sides at all not even a brain fog, I will almost finish two weeks. They only thing you may face is transient paresthesia (tingling of the skin). However this does not affect as I'm taking one capsule before bed time so I wont sense it at all but just mild feeling in the morning. I had the tingling sensation around my stomach area. 
> 
> Its much safer than Finasteride. Read this please. I got this answer for Mr. Marc Costin from Keratene.
> 
> _Are there differences between KaR (Keratene Alphactive Retard) and Finasteride?
> 
> Yes. K&#233;ratene alphactive Retarde is completely different than finasteride.
> Finasteride is a synthetically engineered molecule, with specific chemical properties.
> K&#233;ratene alphactive Retarde is an organic compound, not synthetically engineered.
> ...


 I found that taking Saw Palmetto had decreased my libido at times. I took 320mg (160mg twice daily) for a few weeks straight and eventually it took its toll. Keratene looks promising though, I think I'm gonna give it a go and combine it with RU/CB/Minoxidil/Nizoral and a Saw Palmetto based shampoo, that with Keratene should prove to be a pretty lethal arsenal against DHT.

I'm looking to regrow/maintain for the next while but I am definitely in need of an HT on my hairline and temples, thus I'll be seeking treatment with Dr. Gho.

----------


## HARIRI

Hi Guys, although I'm only taking the capsules as I believe in Oral stuff along with Rogaine (Minoxidil 5&#37 :Wink: . I asked the main company about their serum and shampoo as we do not see any information about it and here is their reply.

_The serum is designed for on-skin application and works only locally. The composition of the capsules is indeed different from the topical products, with the a few noticeable exceptions: the fats are engineered and modified (to create the thermo-sensitive crystalline needles, structures that can penetrate the skin and melt at specific temperatures).

Apart from this non of the topical uses alcohol or salt bases as transport middle, which significantly decreases the chance on chemical stress.

The composition of the serum is based on a creamy organic base of aloe vera gel and coconut cream, it contains some common plant extracts (like urtica, chamomile, flax), modified sterols, essential oils, oily vitamins.

The composition of the shampoo is based on a mild non-ionic surfactants from coconut (like the ones used in baby shampoo), it contains aloe vera some common plant extracts (like calendula, st. john’s wort, urtica, chamomile, flax, flavonoides), modified sterols, essential oils, oily vitamins._

So we have to becareful when we use the capsules and serum together as they both contain concentrated sterols. When someone overdoses the sterol intake, it will affect negatively the metabolism Vitamen A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency). So you can use the shampoo with the serum OR the shampoo with capsules. That is my brotherly advice :-)

Good luck Guys ;-)

----------


## everest13

I've been on the capsules at once daily for 3 weeks now. It seems as if i'm losing more hair. Could this be a sign that im shedding? I'm not sure whether to increase my dosage 1 and a half pill - or 2pills. Or wait it out on 1 pill a day...

----------


## Conpecia

> I've been on the capsules at once daily for 3 weeks now. It seems as if i'm losing more hair. Could this be a sign that im shedding? I'm not sure whether to increase my dosage 1 and a half pill - or 2pills. Or wait it out on 1 pill a day...


 Hmm, could be a shed. I know propecia causes a shed. I would go another two weeks to see if shedding stops then bump it up to two pills if not. I'd also email the company and see what they suggest, they seem pretty responsive.

----------


## Conpecia

I have decided to purchase Keratene, and will be doing so as soon as my paypal account is cleared by my bank account. I've been speaking with a representative of the company via email and their level of customer service is outstanding. The rep offered me several discounts and even assured me that KaR would not promote gynecomastia, the main reason why I am unable to take finasteride. He says they don't have any reps in the forums and the product, in spite of its effectiveness, is simply not well-known. I told him that BTT and other forums are trialing HaR, getting DHT tested and so forth, and that if we find the product satisfactory over the next 6 months or so they'll have no problems getting business. Again, I had difficulties with the ordering process and the company walked me through everything and was quite responsive to emails, answering any questions I had and doing so quickly. I think these are all good signs, but of course the effectiveness of the product is the all-important factor.  

This is it for me. I'm sick of gyno and I refuse to take fin ever again. It's KaR and Capillogain from now until August, and if I don't have at least maintenance and at most noticeable regrowth, I'm ditching everything, saving up for a hair transplant with Dr. Rahal, then supplementing it with Gho every two years, or until Histogen and Aderans are released. **** you, baldness.

----------


## Cob984

Nice dude, please let me know if you notice any gyno when u use this,
i think and i hope i am wrong i have sensations and sometimes fleeting pain in the area, i am worried sick that gyno is redeveloping

----------


## hellouser

> I have decided to purchase Keratene, and will be doing so as soon as my paypal account is cleared by my bank account. I've been speaking with a representative of the company via email and their level of customer service is outstanding. The rep offered me several discounts and even assured me that KaR would not promote gynecomastia, the main reason why I am unable to take finasteride. He says they don't have any reps in the forums and the product, in spite of its effectiveness, is simply not well-known. I told him that BTT and other forums are trialing HaR, getting DHT tested and so forth, and that if we find the product satisfactory over the next 6 months or so they'll have no problems getting business. Again, I had difficulties with the ordering process and the company walked me through everything and was quite responsive to emails, answering any questions I had and doing so quickly. I think these are all good signs, but of course the effectiveness of the product is the all-important factor.  
> 
> This is it for me. I'm sick of gyno and I refuse to take fin ever again. It's KaR and Capillogain from now until August, and *if I don't have at least maintenance and at most noticeable regrowth, I'm ditching everything, saving up for a hair transplant with Dr. Rahal, then supplementing it with Gho every two years, or until Histogen and Aderans are released. **** you, baldness.*


 Same here dude. I can't believe there isnt a proper treatment for this... 2013 and they still cant grow a single f*cking hair follicle? I know Lauster has grown follicles with hair, but where the f*ck is the treatment for us?! We're LONG overdue!

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I have decided to purchase Keratene, and will be doing so as soon as my paypal account is cleared by my bank account. I've been speaking with a representative of the company via email and their level of customer service is outstanding. The rep offered me several discounts and even assured me that KaR would not promote gynecomastia, the main reason why I am unable to take finasteride. He says they don't have any reps in the forums and the product, in spite of its effectiveness, is simply not well-known. I told him that BTT and other forums are trialing HaR, getting DHT tested and so forth, and that if we find the product satisfactory over the next 6 months or so they'll have no problems getting business. Again, I had difficulties with the ordering process and the company walked me through everything and was quite responsive to emails, answering any questions I had and doing so quickly. I think these are all good signs, but of course the effectiveness of the product is the all-important factor.  
> 
> This is it for me. I'm sick of gyno and I refuse to take fin ever again. It's KaR and Capillogain from now until August, and if I don't have at least maintenance and at most noticeable regrowth, I'm ditching everything, saving up for a hair transplant with Dr. Rahal, then supplementing it with Gho every two years, or until Histogen and Aderans are released. **** you, baldness.


 Like you. I really hope this works.

If it does, I will take it too.

This product will be a real breakthrough, if it does work.

If you guys can take before-after pics, that would be great.

----------


## Conpecia

Sure I'll take some. But remember I'll also be on Capillogain and Nizoral.

----------


## HARIRI

> Sure I'll take some. But remember I'll also be on Capillogain and Nizoral.


 
Why dont you take Rogaine? I think Minoxidil is more effective that Capillogain for the hair growth. Its more clinically approved.

Capillogain ingredients are

AQUA, ALCOHOL DENAT., PHOSPHATIDYLCHOLINE, LINOLENIC ACID, PYRROLIDINYL DIAMINOPYRIMIDINE OXIDE, SOPHORA FLAVESCENS EXTRACT, CREATINE, ARGININE, RED GINSENG ROOT EXTRACT, HORDEUM VULGARE EXTRACT, CHAMAECYPARIS OBTUSA OIL, ASIASARI RADIX EXTRACT, RASPBERRY KETONE, CYANOCOBALAMIN, BIOTIN.

I got these info from here 

http://www.amazon.com/Capillogain%C2.../dp/B009GG22ZU

What are the hair growth agents in there???  :Confused:

----------


## HARIRI

> Like you. I really hope this works.
> 
> If it does, I will take it too.
> 
> This product will be a real breakthrough, if it does work.
> 
> If you guys can take before-after pics, that would be great.


 Believe it or not, since I quit taking my Saw Palmetto product and started taking Keratene Alphactive Retard instead. I restored my whole libido and erections got harder. I even started to restore back my morning wood daily. I think Saw Palmetto was affecting it negatively little bit. I'm so over the moon for the mean time. Now I do believe that its libido sides free.  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

----------


## hellouser

> Believe it or not, since I quit taking my Saw Palmetto product and started taking Keratene Alphactive Retard instead. I restored my whole libido and erections got harder. I even started to restore back my morning wood daily. I think Saw Palmetto was affecting it negatively little bit. I'm so over the moon for the mean time. Now I do believe that its libido sides free.


 How long was has it been since you quit Saw Palmetto?

----------


## HARIRI

Ever since I quit from using Propecia back in 2007. I started it in 2008 with a saw palmetto extract dose of 500mg per day then I lowered it to 300mg daily with Hairomega DHT product. Keratene does contain Beta Sitosterol so I think I will blame it on the saw palmetto little bit. But still Saw Palmetto isn't that lethal as Finasteride, It seems that it reduced my libido and morning wood little but Finasteride killed it lol.

----------


## Conpecia

> Why dont you take Rogaine? I think Minoxidil is more effective that Capillogain for the hair growth. Its more clinically approved.
> 
> Capillogain ingredients are
> 
> AQUA, ALCOHOL DENAT., PHOSPHATIDYLCHOLINE, LINOLENIC ACID, PYRROLIDINYL DIAMINOPYRIMIDINE OXIDE, SOPHORA FLAVESCENS EXTRACT, CREATINE, ARGININE, RED GINSENG ROOT EXTRACT, HORDEUM VULGARE EXTRACT, CHAMAECYPARIS OBTUSA OIL, ASIASARI RADIX EXTRACT, RASPBERRY KETONE, CYANOCOBALAMIN, BIOTIN.
> 
> I got these info from here 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Capillogain%C2.../dp/B009GG22ZU
> ...


 There should be a minox-like agent called triaminodil and all the other stuff helps it synergistically. 

I don't take minox because it gives me dark circles, wrinkles and bloating. It ages the face and my face is more important than hair.

----------


## HARIRI

> There should be a minox-like agent called triaminodil and all the other stuff helps it synergistically. 
> 
> I don't take minox because it gives me dark circles, wrinkles and bloating. It ages the face and my face is more important than hair.


 Here more info I got from their official website 

http://www.functional-products.net/p...ain-tonic.html

*Capillogain ® Tonic is a world first with their effectiveness scientifically proven hair growth promoting agents. 

The agents are at Capillogain ®  Tonic encapsulated in tiny called microspheres, through which  the drugs are transported directly to the hair follicles. Their time-delayed release, the microspheres smoother high drug levels obtained for a long time up to the scalp and thus achieve a greater effectiveness as a simple alcohol and water mixtures. Here you can a light microscope image of the microspheres in Capillogain ®  look Tonic: microspheres

Capillogain ® Tonic contains no allergenic propylene glycol (PG), no parabens or artificial colors and preservatives.  

Capillogain ® Tonic contains little alcohol, so it is skin-friendly than many commercial products, which often enhalten a high percentage of alcohol and propylene glycol.  
Capillogain ® Tonic contains only natural preservatives such as Hinoki oil, which act simultaneously hair growth effects.  

This timesaving pleasant use of Capillogain ® Tonic is or twice a day, preferably morning and evening. A 100ml bottle Capillogain ® Tonic enough for about 1 month.   

The active ingredients in Capillogain ® Tonic in their efficacy on scientific evidence, it agreed to promote the positive factors of the hair growth and inhibit the negative factors. 

Agents in Capillogain ® Tonic

procyanidin B - 3 
has the potential to the growth inhibitory effect 
of transforming growth factor beta 1 (TGF-β1) 

Acid (GLA) 
inhibits 5-alpha reductase (5AR) types 1 and 2, 
has 

Ketone 
increases the expression of insulin-like growth factor 1

Asiasari Radix Extract 
increases the expression of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15862941 

Triaminodil (Proderma Srl - Italy)
Poster P-186 on page 

Several clinical studies) 
latest clinical trial (the product contains the active ingredient Aminotril Triaminodil) Sophora flavescens extract increases the expression of IGF-1 and keratinocyte growth factor (KGF), inhibits the 5AR type 1 and 2, inhibits the synthesis of prostaglandin D2 (PGD2 ) , has antibacterial properties, for example against Propionibacterium 


Ginseng Root Extract 
inhibits 5 A R, 
increases the expression of 

the energy balance of the cell, 
the mitochondria protects against free radicals (reactive oxygen species (ROS)) 
and therefore reduces the cell suicide (apoptosis) 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16098029 

L-Arginine 
L -Arginine increases the expression of nitric oxide (NO)  and thereby increases the blood circulation to the hair roots. 
L-Arginine reduced the expression of the hair-growth-inhibiting TGF-beta. 
L-Arginine in the hair as the amino acid building block 

B12
interacts synergistically with 

is an essential micronutrient for maintaining normal cellular functions. 
biotin deficiency leads to pathological changes in the dermatological 

Oil 
increases the expression of VEGF, 
has an antibacterial and antifungal 
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...67326X09001452 

phosphatidylcholines (PC) 
is converted into Phosphatidic Acid which again the growth inhibitory effects 
of TGF-beta1 and neutralized the cells from apoptosis protects 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12925199 

For a description of ausdührliche Capillogain ® Tonic please click here . 

Ingredients
AQUA, ALCOHOL DENAT., phosphatidylcholines, Linolenic Acid, pyrrolidinyl Diaminopyrimidine OXIDE, Sophora flavescens EXTRACT, CREATINE, ARGININE, RED GINSENG ROOT EXTRACT, Hordeum vulgare EXTRACT, Chamaecyparis obtusa OIL, asiasari RADIX EXTRACT, RASPBERRY KETONE, Vitamin B12, Biotin 
*

If I were you I would try Spectral DNC-N, I find it more credible that this product. DS laboratories are more official and well known. Plus they formulated this for people who get sides from Minoxidil. 

http://www.dslaboratories.ro/interna...pectral-dnc-n/

_Spectral.DNC-N  THE WORLDS FIRST TREATMENT WITH NANOXIDIL
 A unique innovation featuring 5% Nanoxidil
 Ultra premium research-grade materials
 Latest encapsulation technology
 Designed to surpass the efficacy of minoxidil therapy

Spectral.DNC-N is the latest advance from DS Laboratories designed to surpass the limitations of minoxidil therapy. The first treatment to utilize Nanoxidil, this compound is a complex matrix that opens ions channels within cells and exerts multiple mechanisms of action to address over a dozen triggers that lead to hair fall out.

A true innovation, Nanoxidil dramatically increases hair density and promotes the overall health of the scalp. This is combined in a comprehensive formulation in Spectral DNC-N with multiple auxiliary agents implementing a unique multi-lateral therapy. The molecule responsible for the ion channel opening effect has a lower molecular weight than minoxidil and features several important advantages over the now outdated minoxidil compound.

This product also features the latest nanosome encapsulation technology to enable more targeted absorption to the base of the hair follicle.

Ingredients:
DEIONIZED WATER, HYDROLYZED LUPINE PROTEIN, PANAX GINSENG ROOT EXTRACT, NANOXIDIL (5%), ADENOSINE, BUTYLENE GLYCOL, AMINEXIL, ARGININE, PHOSPHOLIPIDS (NANOSOMES), ACETYL TYROSINE, STEM CELLS,PPG-26-BUTETH-26, ARCTIUM MAJUS ROOT EXTRACT, HYDROLYZED SOY PROTEIN, PROCYANIDIN B2, POLYQUATERNIUM-11, PEG-40 HYDROGENATED CASTOR OIL, PEG 12 DIMETHICONE, CETRIMONIUM CHLORIDE, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, APIGENIN, ETHANOL, ISOLAURETH-6, ZINC GLUCONATE, TAURINE, PREZATIDE COPPER ACETATE (COPPER PEPTIDE), NIACINAMIDE, OLEANOLIC ACID, ORNITHINE HCL, CITRULLINE, RETINOL, GLUCOSAMINE HCL, PROPYLENE GLYCOL, PEG-8 DIMETHICONE, T-FLAVANONE, BIOTINOYL TRIPEPTIDE, BIOTIN, DIMETHICONOL, SILICONE QUATERNIUM-2 PANTHENOL SUCCINATECONE QUATERNIUM-2 PANTHENOL SUCCINAT_

----------


## HARIRI

By the way, I like your screen name. *Con*pecia which is the opposite of *Pro*pecia  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

----------


## ajays

Good eye Hariri  :Smile:   :Smile:  




> By the way, I like your screen name. *Con*pecia which is the opposite of *Pro*pecia

----------


## ajays

Conpecia,
I got itchy rashes, dry lips, bloating, puffy eyes with minox (once a day). But I think this was after I started using the derma roller. Probably more minox started getting into the bloodstream. Were u using the roller as well? Also, how many days or weeks did it take for the side effects to subside?

For me it's been a week since I stopped minox. The bloating and puffy eyes are gone, but I still have some itchy skin and dry lips.




> There should be a minox-like agent called triaminodil and all the other stuff helps it synergistically. 
> 
> I don't take minox because it gives me dark circles, wrinkles and bloating. It ages the face and my face is more important than hair.

----------


## HARIRI

I agree when I was using Rogaine twice a day, I experienced the dark eye circles with little forehead wrinkles and now after lowering the dose to one per day, it almost disappeared and my wife thinks I have gone for Botox lol.  Damn these treatments, they always have down sides. I'm shit scared to quit Minoxidil as I know well that I'm going to lose many hair beyond the transplanted area. Anyways I'm happy with the once a day regime. By the way, ajays. Where did you buy this Derma Roller from? I'm interested to use it as I don't really like to wash the Nanogen fibres before bedtime. I try to limit washing my hair to not lose natural hair oil and stick to one shampooing every morning.

----------


## ajays

Got the roller from amazon (e.g link below). Use it with caution, if you see any of the side effects that has been mentioned before on this thread, stop using the roller immediately. I wish I had stopped it earlier, initially I had thought the rashes were due to dry weather allergies but then i saw i was turning into a zombie face - no kidding.


http://www.amazon.com/MicroNeedle-Ro...s=derma+roller




> I agree when I was using Rogaine twice a day, I experienced the dark eye circles with little forehead wrinkles and now after lowering the dose to one per day, it almost disappeared and my wife thinks I have gone for Botox lol.  Damn these treatments, they always have down sides. I'm shit scared to quit Minoxidil as I know well that I'm going to lose many hair beyond the transplanted area. Anyways I'm happy with the once a day regime. By the way, ajays. Where did you buy this Derma Roller from? I'm interested to use it as I don't really like to wash the Nanogen fibres before bedtime. I try to limit washing my hair to not lose natural hair oil and stick to one shampooing every morning.

----------


## Conpecia

> By the way, I like your screen name. *Con*pecia which is the opposite of *Pro*pecia


 Heh, was in an angry mood when I joined BTT

----------


## Conpecia

> Conpecia,
> I got itchy rashes, dry lips, bloating, puffy eyes with minox (once a day). But I think this was after I started using the derma roller. Probably more minox started getting into the bloodstream. Were u using the roller as well? Also, how many days or weeks did it take for the side effects to subside?
> 
> For me it's been a week since I stopped minox. The bloating and puffy eyes are gone, but I still have some itchy skin and dry lips.


 Nope I was just using it once a night however I was using it immediately before bed and I just read that you're supposed to use it 2 hours before bed so it dries. Maybe it was getting on my pillow and face? All I know is I looked worn out and had to stop. Hopefully capillogain will be better, there's way less triaminodil in cap than minox in Rogaine.

----------


## HARIRI

Two weeks passed and Im noticing much less hair fall every morning. I usually oil my hair with coconut oil before shampooing because of the dry nature of my hair. I noticed less hair falling while oiling my hair and scalp. I used to see around 10-15 hairs and now almost 5 only. So far I am very pleased. Also my morning wood is hard as ever which means Saw Palmetto was effecting the hardness of it slightly. Bare in my mind that I am taking only one capsule a day. How about you guys? What did you notice with using it? Please share.

----------


## GuyFromUK

Hi Hariri

Thanks for the update. I am not taking Keratene myself yet so I cant add much, but thanks for keeping us updated on your progress.

If it does work then I imagine you might go through some sort of shed at some point in the next 9 months, so don't give up at the first hurdle if you suddenly start losing more hairs, try and stick with it. It's great that your sides have gone from the saw palmetto!

I am considering making a switch from propecia to Keratene in 6 months if people start posting positive reviews of its effect on hair. Is anyone else out there considering making the same switch?

----------


## ajays

Hariri,

I have been on it for 10 days now, no serious side effects. Couple of days back I had some fatigue but not sure if it was because of Keratene (body needs to get comfortable with the drop in DHT, if at all it has dropped) or because of work. Feeling all good now. 

Regarding hair fall, it is curious that you say that. I was on a minox shed for the past of couple of weeks or so. It has been a week since I stopped using minox due to side effects. I am seeing substantially less hair shed since 2 days. Again, not sure if it's because I stopped minox or whether Keratene helped. All in all, I "feel" that I my hair is getting more manageable and a touch thicker compared to the situation before Keratene. Hopefully these are positive signs, will continue to use it and update again in the near future.






> Two weeks passed and Im noticing much less hair fall every morning. I usually oil my hair with coconut oil before shampooing because of the dry nature of my hair. I noticed less hair falling while oiling my hair and scalp. I used to see around 10-15 hairs and now almost 5 only. So far I am very pleased. Also my morning wood is hard as ever which means Saw Palmetto was effecting the hardness of it slightly. Bare in my mind that I am taking only one capsule a day. How about you guys? What did you notice with using it? Please share.

----------


## ilovebacon

if you're having adverse reactions to minox you should go to a sauna or russian/turkish bath house, not use it for a couple of days, and never use it after showering. i thought i was allergic to it for months and read about it going to the sauna online to remedy the situation. BOOM! back in business baby. seriously. no joke! just don't use too much. i don't come to this site often anymore, so i'm not interested in a conversation but this will definitely help!!! 

GOOD LUCK!!!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## HARIRI

> Hariri,
> 
> I have been on it for 10 days now, no serious side effects.


 Are you taking one capsule a day or two capsules a day?  :Cool:

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

Thanks for the update guys, can you all post before after pics.

Even if your hair looks the "same" after 6 months its a success, means you are maintaining.

----------


## ajays

Been on one capsule per day. I might raise it to 2 this week.




> Are you taking one capsule a day or two capsules a day?

----------


## drybone

> if you're having adverse reactions to minox you should go to a sauna or russian/turkish bath house, not use it for a couple of days, and never use it after showering. i thought i was allergic to it for months and read about it *going to the sauna online to remedy the situation. BOOM! back in business* baby. seriously. no joke! just don't use too much. i don't come to this site often anymore, so i'm not interested in a conversation but this will definitely help!!! 
> 
> GOOD LUCK!!!!


 Me too. I love online sauna's  :Cool:

----------


## HARIRI

> Been on one capsule per day. I might raise it to 2 this week.


 Interesting, keep us updated  :Smile:

----------


## ajays

Hariri,

Sure - will do. Where else will I go?  :Smile: 

On a side note, it has been said that people with high DHT have oily skin. I have been having oily skin (especially on the face) since many many years now. Do you have similar problem? and did it reduce while you were on propecia? Just asking since I am hoping that Keratene will reduce the skin oiliness as well.





> Interesting, keep us updated

----------


## HARIRI

Yes i have an oily face that I can fry an egg on it under the sun lol. That is why I usually wash my face 5 times a day and try to use oil clear facial sheets whenever I am in the construction site. I also have dandruff since 18 years old. I'm using Alpecin Double effect shampoo which has Caffeine and Salicylic acid everyday and use Nizoral shampoo 2&#37; once a week to control it. However I remember that when I was using Propecia, my dandruff reduced a lot. I don't know if this related. I'm actually thinking to upgrade to two capsules a day next week since I didn't get any sides and my libido got higher.

----------


## everest13

I've been on one capsule a day for 4 weeks now. I think I might be going through a shed because i see so much hair on my pillow that I never used to see before. and all the hair thats on the pillow is the smaller weaker hairs. Am i right in thinking this is a shed?

----------


## Conpecia

Sounds like a shed at 4 weeks, particularly if its the weaker hairs. I'd say stick with it another 2-3 weeks and reevaluate.

----------


## HARIRI

> I've been on one capsule a day for 4 weeks now. I think I might be going through a shed because i see so much hair on my pillow that I never used to see before. and all the hair thats on the pillow is the smaller weaker hairs. Am i right in thinking this is a shed?


 Interesting, it means that it works. I remember when I was on Finasteride (Propecia). I had some shedding of weak hairs by week three. Great sign buddy.

Are you trying to upgrade your dosage to the recommended one (2 capsules a day)?  :Smile:

----------


## everest13

> Interesting, it means that it works. I remember when I was on Finasteride (Propecia). I had some shedding of weak hairs by week three. Great sign buddy.
> 
> Are you trying to upgrade your dosage to the recommended one (2 capsules a day)?


 I'm not sure about increasing the dosage yet, its because my DHT levels before taking anything were 312 pg/ml which is within the normal range, it seems i just have high sensitivity to DHT.  I am considering taking another DHT test to see how much its been dropped by, but the test is really expensive, it costs like £140

----------


## HARIRI

> I'm not sure about increasing the dosage yet, its because my DHT levels before taking anything were 312 pg/ml which is within the normal range, it seems i just have high sensitivity to DHT.  I am considering taking another DHT test to see how much its been dropped by, but the test is really expensive, it costs like £140


 This makes a lot of sense. Then stick with one capsule a day. Wish you all the best. My DHT levels for sure above 1000 pg/ml, otherwise Finasteride would not have worked on me before.

----------


## ajays

Apart from that,since you have been taking the capsules for a month now, are you seeing any general improvement in existing hair condition (hairs getting thicker, etc)?




> I've been on one capsule a day for 4 weeks now. I think I might be going through a shed because i see so much hair on my pillow that I never used to see before. and all the hair thats on the pillow is the smaller weaker hairs. Am i right in thinking this is a shed?

----------


## ajays

Hariri,
I havent taken Finasteride before. If Keratene doesnt work I might have to resort to Fin. Can you please elaborate on after how long did you start seeing improvements with Fin? 






> This makes a lot of sense. Then stick with one capsule a day. Wish you all the best. My DHT levels for sure above 1000 pg/ml, otherwise Finasteride would not have worked on me before.

----------


## HARIRI

> Hariri,
> I havent taken Finasteride before. If Keratene doesnt work I might have to resort to Fin. Can you please elaborate on after how long did you start seeing improvements with Fin?


 To be honest, I cant give all the applause to Finasteride as I was using Minoxidil 10% along with it. However I felt the results of Finasteride by month 3. I started taking it on December and by March I was wowed big time, even my fiancee that time when I returned home was impressed with the results after being away in UK for my higher education. She couldn't believe her eyes, it turned me from NW3 to NW2. 

You should take the recommended dose of 2 capsules a day and wait for 3 months in order to see a clear result.  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

> Apart from that,since you have been taking the capsules for a month now, are you seeing any general improvement in existing hair condition (hairs getting thicker, etc)?


 Hair grows around 10-15cm in length per year, that averages to roughly 1cm per month. Since a lot of the medication we're using usually causes a shed which can last many months and another 5-6 weeks of the hair in a resting phase, 1 month is typically too short of a time to gauge growth although its often possible to see small hair sprout.

----------


## Cob984

Heres my opinion, btw i am taking it 3x/week one capsule a day, using shampoo/ serum 2x/week, been on topicals almost 3 months and capsules around 1.5-2 months

Has it helped my hair? I think so, its just easier to style and manage and looks better,

Downside - im struggling with weight issues inspite of an insanely healthy diet, regular gym usage. i feel like my gyno is resurfacing, i am worried sick the lump beneath my nipple is returning, i am going to show it tomorrow to see what the deal is, i obviously dont want to discontinue but i dont want gyno back so i am really in a catch 22 at the moment,
Currently using DIM, Zinc and resveratrol to try to combat the sides but not really working as i hoped

----------


## clandestine

> Heres my opinion, btw i am taking it 3x/week one capsule a day, using shampoo/ serum 2x/week, been on topicals almost 3 months and capsules around 1.5-2 months
> 
> Has it helped my hair? I think so, its just easier to style and manage and looks better,
> 
> Downside - im struggling with weight issues inspite of an insanely healthy diet, regular gym usage. i feel like my gyno is resurfacing, i am worried sick the lump beneath my nipple is returning, i am going to show it tomorrow to see what the deal is, i obviously dont want to discontinue but i dont want gyno back so i am really in a catch 22 at the moment,
> Currently using DIM, Zinc and resveratrol to try to combat the sides but not really working as i hoped


 When did you undergo gyno surgery? How involved was the recovery process? Are you happy with the results post surgery?

----------


## HopelesselyBalding

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum

I have been gradually losing my hair since late teens, i would say i am a norwood 2.5 ish. I check on this forum every other day praying for the answer to this curse. Anyway i was too scared to use fin and currently use minox/niz combo. When i saw this about keratene alphactive retard I thought maybe my prayers for a hold off treatment until histogen/anderans comes along were answered. 

So seeing all the hype and due to the bold claims of no sides on their website I decided to buy the capsules from prohair clinic. I took 1 a day for the past 2 weeks. Even from the third day i noticed little to no hairs in the shower compared with 7-10 previously.
Then the fifth or so day the dreaded fin sides kicked in. I get weak erections and watery cum and my sex drive has decreased massively. I know people dont want to hear this but i really need some advice. How can the company claim no sides? 
I really don't know what to do, should i carry on and these sides will go away? or stop and be in the same position and hope my sex drive comes back? 

I guess i'm one of the unlucky ones who get bad sides? 
Should the sides of worn off by now?(even tho there shouldn't be these kind of sides with this!) ? From the posts above nobody else seems to get sides with this which makes me so frustrated that this is just my luck!

Thanks in advance!

----------


## ajays

Are you taking anything other medications? I think 5 days is too soon to impact libido/associated functions. Guess even fin takes a long time to show up any sexual dysfunction. But that's just my opinion. In any case, Have you reached out to the primary Keratene company (not prohair clinic) and discussed your symptoms? What is their feedback?




> Hi all,
> 
> This is my first post on this forum
> 
> I have been gradually losing my hair since late teens, i would say i am a norwood 2.5 ish. I check on this forum every other day praying for the answer to this curse. Anyway i was too scared to use fin and currently use minox/niz combo. When i saw this about keratene alphactive retard I thought maybe my prayers for a hold off treatment until histogen/anderans comes along were answered. 
> 
> So seeing all the hype and due to the bold claims of no sides on their website I decided to buy the capsules from prohair clinic. I took 1 a day for the past 2 weeks. Even from the third day i noticed little to no hairs in the shower compared with 7-10 previously.
> Then the fifth or so day the dreaded fin sides kicked in. I get weak erections and watery cum and my sex drive has decreased massively. I know people dont want to hear this but i really need some advice. How can the company claim no sides? 
> I really don't know what to do, should i carry on and these sides will go away? or stop and be in the same position and hope my sex drive comes back? 
> ...

----------


## HopelesselyBalding

> Are you taking anything other medications? I think 5 days is too soon to impact libido/associated functions. Guess even fin takes a long time to show up any sexual dysfunction. But that's just my opinion. In any case, Have you reached out to the primary Keratene company (not prohair clinic) and discussed your symptoms? What is their feedback?


 Thanks for your reply.

I am in the middle of writing an email to them.
I will post their reply on here!

I understand it is quite soon and i understand the whole all in your head thing but i have no doubt my erections are weak and my cum is watery.
 I also dont doubt i stopped loosing as many hairs. If i didnt get the sides i would 100% back this product. Maybe its just a 1 in a 100 thing and im the 1  :Frown:  

I am not on any other medication.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> I am in the middle of writing an email to them.
> I will post their reply on here!
> 
> I understand it is quite soon and i understand the whole all in your head thing but i have no doubt my erections are weak and my cum is watery.
>  I also dont doubt i stopped loosing as many hairs. If i didnt get the sides i would 100% back this product. Maybe its just a 1 in a 100 thing and im the 1  
> 
> I am not on any other medication.


 You should probably get your DHT levels tested.

----------


## ajays

I hear ya ! Just like minox works well for many people but gives me rashes - had to take oral corticosteroid to get rid of them. 

Hopefully your symptoms are because of something else and not related to Keratene. 




> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> I am in the middle of writing an email to them.
> I will post their reply on here!
> 
> I understand it is quite soon and i understand the whole all in your head thing but i have no doubt my erections are weak and my cum is watery.
>  I also dont doubt i stopped loosing as many hairs. If i didnt get the sides i would 100&#37; back this product. Maybe its just a 1 in a 100 thing and im the 1  
> 
> I am not on any other medication.

----------


## drybone

> Hi all,
> 
> This is my first post on this forum
> 
> I have been gradually losing my hair since late teens, i would say i am a norwood 2.5 ish. I check on this forum every other day praying for the answer to this curse. Anyway i was too scared to use fin and currently use minox/niz combo. When i saw this about keratene alphactive retard I thought maybe my prayers for a hold off treatment until histogen/anderans comes along were answered. 
> 
> So seeing all the hype and due to the bold claims of no sides on their website I decided to buy the capsules from prohair clinic. I took 1 a day for the past 2 weeks. Even from the third day i noticed little to no hairs in the shower compared with 7-10 previously.
> Then the fifth or so day the dreaded fin sides kicked in. I get weak erections and watery cum and my sex drive has decreased massively. I know people dont want to hear this but i really need some advice. How can the company claim no sides? 
> I really don't know what to do, should i carry on and these sides will go away? or stop and be in the same position and hope my sex drive comes back? 
> ...


 These are common side effects . Most of us have experienced these but for many of us they subside within 90 days.

----------


## Cob984

Sides can happen 100&#37; and i dont doubt you, my libido is also lower but not low enough to ring alarm bells, However i have outlined my gyno + weight issues with only 3times a week usage so you are not the only one,
I also believe my hair is being helped and want to power through if i can

----------


## HopelesselyBalding

> You should probably get your DHT levels tested.


 This is probably my next step i think. Just the cost thats stopping me at the moment. Im £100 down at the minute if i decide to stop taking these capsules

Dry bone - I understand about the common sides but this company claims no sides which is why i started taking them

I wish i joined this forum sooner. Feel better just having someone to talk about it with. Thanks guys ill let you know what keratene reply!

----------


## HopelesselyBalding

> Sides can happen 100&#37; and i dont doubt you, my libido is also lower but not low enough to ring alarm bells, However i have outlined my gyno + weight issues with only 3times a week usage so you are not the only one,
> I also believe my hair is being helped and want to power through if i can


 Ye i agree, i have managed to have sex during this time it just took me longer to get an erection and my cum is watery. I think my main concern is it maybe effecting my probability of having children because i am still quite young.

I dont really understand gyno. Do your peck muscles just gradually sag ? How bad do you get it?

----------


## big time charlie

Hey guys! Im new here, first post! 29 years old and this is my first attempt at halting my hair loss. I have been using keratene pills 2x day and topicals 2x week for the last 3 weeks or so. I haven't noticed any sides from the pills at all. The serum made me feel very faint and dizzy on one occasion but all fine apart from that. Noticing less hair on my pillow in the morning and in my hands during showers....and my hair and scalp do feel pretty good after using the serum....but the million dollar question still remains, will it be an effective dht blocker?

----------


## HARIRI

> Hey guys! Im new here, first post! 29 years old and this is my first attempt at halting my hair loss. I have been using keratene pills 2x day and topicals 2x week for the last 3 weeks or so. I haven't noticed any sides from the pills at all. The serum made me feel very faint and dizzy on one occasion but all fine apart from that. Noticing less hair on my pillow in the morning and in my hands during showers....and my hair and scalp do feel pretty good after using the serum....but the million dollar question still remains, will it be an effective dht blocker?


 I seriously advice you to control your intake. 2 capsules of Keratene has sterol complex dosage of almost 3g/day. Anything above that is not good and can create problems with Vitamen A metabolism. Remember that the Serum has Sterol Complex in it as well. So my brotherly advice is either to apply the serum and take one capsule in different times a day OR take 2 capsules and quit the serum. Too much DHT lowering will definitely create sides in other ways if not sexually. I might be wrong but this is my personal opinion.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Cob984

> When did you undergo gyno surgery? How involved was the recovery process? Are you happy with the results post surgery?


 7 months ago, I was but am starting to thing the surgeon left too much gland behind, otherwise i cant understand how i can be getting some reoccurence already?
Recovery sucked, i could barely move for 5-6 days, v painful

----------


## big time charlie

from another forum where we are also discussing keratene (you can never have too much conversation right!?) 

""I use the topicals either - Shampoo and Serum. I thought too that it's maybe dangerous to combine the capsules and the topicals but Chris Anderson who works at Keratene told me this:

"In fact, we actually recommend using a combination of topical products and capsules, as it provides the best and most efficient protection against alopecia.Keep in mind that the products are designed for the maintenance of the existing hair density.""

I had been taking one capsule on the days I apply the serum along with nizarol twice a week anyway. 

Started mnox this week too....wow.....have so much stuff to do with hair all of a sudden! How would you advise using the serum those days when using minox too? serum first and then minox or vice versa?

----------


## ajays

Capsules + Serum = OK 
Capsules + Minox = Ok
Serum + Minox = CHEMICAL SHOCK. IMHO, Don't do it. Also, Keratene folks advise against it.





> from another forum where we are also discussing keratene (you can never have too much conversation right!?) 
> 
> ""I use the topicals either - Shampoo and Serum. I thought too that it's maybe dangerous to combine the capsules and the topicals but Chris Anderson who works at Keratene told me this:
> 
> "In fact, we actually recommend using a combination of topical products and capsules, as it provides the best and most efficient protection against alopecia.Keep in mind that the products are designed for the maintenance of the existing hair density.""
> 
> I had been taking one capsule on the days I apply the serum along with nizarol twice a week anyway. 
> 
> Started mnox this week too....wow.....have so much stuff to do with hair all of a sudden! How would you advise using the serum those days when using minox too? serum first and then minox or vice versa?

----------


## HARIRI

> Capsules + Serum = OK 
> Capsules + Minox = Ok
> Serum + Minox = CHEMICAL SHOCK. IMHO, Don't do it. Also, Keratene folks advise against it.


 I agree with ajays. Im using recently one capsule of Keratene and Rogaine (Minoxidil 5%) once a night as a topical. However I might also add RU58441 (strength 1%) only from (www.mpbtreatments.com) once a night soon to my regime.  :Big Grin:

----------


## everest13

Does having more testosterone increase the rate at which your body hair and facial hair grows? 

Since i've started taking the capsules i've noticed my body hair and facial hair grow back much faster.

----------


## Cob984

> I agree with ajays. Im using recently one capsule of Keratene and Rogaine (Minoxidil 5%) once a night as a topical. However I might also add RU58441 (strength 1%) only from (www.mpbtreatments.com) once a night soon to my regime.


 keep us updated if you do, very tempted to try RU myself

----------


## ajays

Have there been any clinical trials on RU58441 and do any docs recommend it? I have been hearing lot of good stuff about it but no reliable sources.

THe only reason I decided to use Keratene even though the capsules are still new is because of their clinical trial results and separate trial results from prohair clinic. It would be great to get some reliable references on RU58441.




> I agree with ajays. Im using recently one capsule of Keratene and Rogaine (Minoxidil 5%) once a night as a topical. However I might also add RU58441 (strength 1%) only from (www.mpbtreatments.com) once a night soon to my regime.

----------


## FearTheLoss

anyone actually feel like Keratene is helping their loss?

----------


## HARIRI

> anyone actually feel like Keratene is helping their loss?


 To be honest, its been 2 weeks since I started. I feel I have less hair falling every morning. Everyday before I shower, I usually oil my hair with coconut oil due to the dry nature of my hair. So after applying the oil I comb my hair backwards, I found out that the hair on my comb is much less than before. In my opinion, it definitely helps maintaining hair.  :Smile:

----------


## FearTheLoss

Awesome, I ordered my first batch. Let's pray this maintains until histogen or aderans arrives

----------


## big time charlie

I thought as much regarding the minox and serum, overkill. Im only using minox once a day before bed,tapering onto it. I have noticed less hair fall too. feels good to be doing something about the hair loss. I have a #1 blade  haircut at the moment, Im actually enjoying it. No maintenance at all! Also Im thinking it might be better for when the inevitable minox shed arrives. A bad shed would have really killed my longer hair, was getting a bit on the sparse side already! : /

----------


## everest13

I've been on the capsules for 5 weeks now. My family just found out I was taking them and are against them since they are not FDA approved. They would much rather me take finasteride since the long term side affects of keratene are not known. I'm not sure whether i should continue with keratene, or switch to finasteride.

----------


## hellouser

> I've been on the capsules for 5 weeks now. My family just found out I was taking them and are against them since they are not FDA approved. They would much rather me take finasteride since the long term side affects of keratene are not known. I'm not sure whether i should continue with keratene, or switch to finasteride.


 What did they say about FDA approving finasteride even though it can cause permanent impotence?

----------


## HARIRI

> My family just found out I was taking them and are against them since they are not FDA approved. They would much rather me take finasteride since the long term side affects of keratene are not known. I'm not sure whether i should continue with keratene, or switch to finasteride.


 Everest13, Tell your family that this product is European and not an American thus it doesn't need to be a FDA approved in order to be produced and sold. Amercian FDA isn't a bible to follow. European advanced countries also have their own health legislation which didn't mind producing it as its not considered as a drug but only a supplement. Its only a sterol complex with some plant extracts. Its made in the Netherlands which I find it a very advanced country with strict health control.

----------


## ajays

Does anyone have any feedback to share on the Keratene shampoo and serum? I am seriously thinking to try them out since I am off minox now. 

I have been off minox for couple of weeks and now my face looks like 5 years younger. Forehead wrinkles are almost gone, no puffy eyes, no bloated face, no dry lips/scaling, no brain fog and my face no longer feels like it has been plastic wrapped, if you know what i mean. Wow !! If i can now just maintain my hair, I would love to look young with some diffused hair and no longer have to turn back to minox and probably look old with lots of hair.

----------


## Conpecia

> I've been on the capsules for 5 weeks now. My family just found out I was taking them and are against them since they are not FDA approved. They would much rather me take finasteride since the long term side affects of keratene are not known. I'm not sure whether i should continue with keratene, or switch to finasteride.


 The only reason I am even considering Keratene capsules is because Fin destroyed my libido and gave me gynecomastia (man boobs). So if your family is concerned about the safety profile of Keratene, they should know that Keratene exists as an alternative to people who cannot take Finasteride due to side effects.

That being said, I took Finasteride for 6 years with minimal side effects, and maintained my hair for the most part. Unfortunately, in the 7th year, for whatever reason, everything went to hell. I love what's left of my hair, but man boobs are unacceptable. 

I personally would start on low doses of Finasteride (.25mg every other day) and work my way up to about .5mg a day. See if you can tolerate it. If you can't, switch to Keratene. I'm not sure Keratene is something I would start with, particularly because it is as of now unproven whereas tons of people use Finasteride effectively. If Finasteride doesn't work you can always come back to Keratene. Just my 2 cents...

----------


## everest13

> The only reason I am even considering Keratene capsules is because Fin destroyed my libido and gave me gynecomastia (man boobs). So if your family is concerned about the safety profile of Keratene, they should know that Keratene exists as an alternative to people who cannot take Finasteride due to side effects.
> 
> That being said, I took Finasteride for 6 years with minimal side effects, and maintained my hair for the most part. Unfortunately, in the 7th year, for whatever reason, everything went to hell. I love what's left of my hair, but man boobs are unacceptable. 
> 
> I personally would start on low doses of Finasteride (.25mg every other day) and work my way up to about .5mg a day. See if you can tolerate it. If you can't, switch to Keratene. I'm not sure Keratene is something I would start with, particularly because it is as of now unproven whereas tons of people use Finasteride effectively. If Finasteride doesn't work you can always come back to Keratene. Just my 2 cents...


 I have booked a DHT test to see how much of a difference keratene made on my DHT levels. If I decide to switch to finasteride, should i stop taking keratene for an entire week, so that my DHT levels can go back to their normal levels again and then take finasteride?

----------


## ajays

everest13, Hariri
If you don't mind my asking, what were your original DHT levels? 

Thanks!




> I have booked a DHT test to see how much of a difference keratene made on my DHT levels. If I decide to switch to finasteride, should i stop taking keratene for an entire week, so that my DHT levels can go back to their normal levels again and then take finasteride?

----------


## everest13

> everest13, Hariri
> If you don't mind my asking, what were your original DHT levels? 
> 
> Thanks!


 Mine were 312 pg/ml. within the normal range.

----------


## HARIRI

> everest13, Hariri
> If you don't mind my asking, what were your original DHT levels? 
> 
> Thanks!


 Mine is around 1500 pg/ml, According to Keratene Company they mentioned in their website...
"1) DHT level between 849 and 1673 pg/ml, 1 capsule per day,
in the morning between 8 and 9;
2) DHT level higher than 1673 pg/ml, 2 capsules per day, one capsule in the morning"

So taking one pill a day seems fine to me  :Big Grin:

----------


## everest13

I've decided to make the switch to generic finasteride cut into fifths (1mg). 
Because my dht levels were 312 before starting keratene, i dont know how much its reduced it by. Should I go off keratene capsules for 1 week for my levels to stabilize again, or should I switch straight to fin?

----------


## Conpecia

I'd take a week off.

----------


## HARIRI

I agree with Conpecia, take a week off and have your DHT levels checked.

----------


## LongWayHome

Alright people, I'm off the capsules.
When I was using fin I had a very nice side effect: shrinkage. (yea, that)
At first I thought it's my imagination and said "that doesn't even make any sense.." but then when I touched it I could feel something's weird...
Then I stopped fin, and started Keratene, and yay the same thing...
Most people get sexual side effects, well then I'm with another one.

I'm still on the topicals though, and going to start RU soon, hopfully that combination (with minox but that's not new) will give me at least maintenance.

Anyway good luck to all of you who don't get this one of a kind side effect.

----------


## Cob984

i have the same one lol , but i dont care as long as i can still get it up,
please let me know how RU works and if and what sides you get, iv tempted to try it

----------


## HARIRI

> Alright people, I'm off the capsules.
> When I was using fin I had a very nice side effect: shrinkage. (yea, that)
> At first I thought it's my imagination and said "that doesn't even make any sense.." but then when I touched it I could feel something's weird...
> Then I stopped fin, and started Keratene, and yay the same thing...
> Most people get sexual side effects, well then I'm with another one.
> 
> I'm still on the topicals though, and going to start RU soon, hopfully that combination (with minox but that's not new) will give me at least maintenance.
> 
> Anyway good luck to all of you who don't get this one of a kind side effect.


 Sorry to hear this LongWayHome, Did you try to reduce your intake from 2 capsules a day to 1 capsule a day before you quit it???  :Frown: 

Also you said that you are planning to start RU58841 along with Minoxidil. Which RU strength are you going to use? 1% or 2% or 5%??? Shalom Bro.  :Big Grin:

----------


## ajays

LongWayHome,

Sorry to hear that. For how long were you on the capsules? Did you get in touch with Keratene to check if they have any suggestions. So far they say they havent got any feedback of sexual side effects. 

Can you help me on the topicals (shampoo + serum)? Are they worth it? I am currently off minox and considering these as topicals.

Also, can anyone recommend a good natural/organic shampoo? The one I use right now makes my hair very greasy. I am already using Nizoral twice a week.




> Alright people, I'm off the capsules.
> When I was using fin I had a very nice side effect: shrinkage. (yea, that)
> At first I thought it's my imagination and said "that doesn't even make any sense.." but then when I touched it I could feel something's weird...
> Then I stopped fin, and started Keratene, and yay the same thing...
> Most people get sexual side effects, well then I'm with another one.
> 
> I'm still on the topicals though, and going to start RU soon, hopfully that combination (with minox but that's not new) will give me at least maintenance.
> 
> Anyway good luck to all of you who don't get this one of a kind side effect.

----------


## Cob984

> LongWayHome,
> 
> Sorry to hear that. For how long were you on the capsules? Did you get in touch with Keratene to check if they have any suggestions. So far they say they havent got any feedback of sexual side effects. 
> 
> Can you help me on the topicals (shampoo + serum)? Are they worth it? I am currently off minox and considering these as topicals.
> 
> Also, can anyone recommend a good natural/organic shampoo? The one I use right now makes my hair very greasy.


 The shampoo + serum is good, but i dont think its enough standalone, I think even the folks at keratene will tell you, the capsules are way more effective and necessary to combat balding long term, 
i used the topicals only for a month and while they are good i still lost some ground, the capsules make the real difference,
but i think the topicals are a v good capsules addition

----------


## ajays

Thanks Cob984 ! Yes - I am already on the capsules for last 18 days or so. No sides so far. I am planning to try out the topicals this week.





> The shampoo + serum is good, but i dont think its enough standalone, I think even the folks at keratene will tell you, the capsules are way more effective and necessary to combat balding long term, 
> i used the topicals only for a month and while they are good i still lost some ground, the capsules make the real difference,
> but i think the topicals are a v good capsules addition

----------


## Conpecia

> i have the same one lol , but i dont care as long as i can still get it up,
> please let me know how RU works and if and what sides you get, iv tempted to try it


 Cobb, any news on the gyno? Gonna order the capsules this week.

----------


## Jcm800

> i have the same one lol , but i dont care as long as i can still get it up,
> please let me know how RU works and if and what sides you get, iv tempted to try it


 You mean your pecker has shrunk as well cob?

----------


## clandestine

> Alright people, I'm off the capsules.
> When I was using fin I had a very nice side effect: shrinkage. (yea, that)
> At first I thought it's my imagination and said "that doesn't even make any sense.." but then when I touched it I could feel something's weird...
> Then I stopped fin, and started Keratene, and yay the same thing...
> Most people get sexual side effects, well then I'm with another one.
> 
> I'm still on the topicals though, and going to start RU soon, hopfully that combination (with minox but that's not new) will give me at least maintenance.
> 
> Anyway good luck to all of you who don't get this one of a kind side effect.


 Rather unfortunate. Have you tried the serum (ultra)? Maybe a low dose of RU you'd be fine with. I'm supremely gyno prone, and currently use RU at 10mg (1%), really low dosage. Recommended is 50mg.

----------


## Conpecia

> Rather unfortunate. Have you tried the serum (ultra)? Maybe a low dose of RU you'd be fine with. I'm supremely gyno prone, and currently use RU at 10mg (1%), really low dosage. Recommended is 50mg.


 Have you had any flare ups with gyno since switching to RU?

----------


## Jcm800

> i have the same one lol , but i dont care as long as i can still get it up,
> please let me know how RU works and if and what sides you get, iv tempted to try it


 


> You mean your pecker has shrunk as well cob?


 Sorry cob, that came across condescending. I'm thinking of trying this, but if shrinkage is indeed a side, I'll think again.

----------


## burtandernie

I dont get why finasteride does not come in different strengths or an easy to cut pill to get into tiny pieces I mean it should be encouraged to men to inhibit 25&#37; DHT or a very small amount first to see how that goes before going crazy. Lowing DHT small amounts might be much better in many cases but .25 mg is the only practical way to split a pill and that inhibits a lot more then 25%

----------


## clandestine

> Have you had any flare ups with gyno since switching to RU?


 With anything above 20mg, yes. At 50mg I get gyno sides.

----------


## LongWayHome

> With anything above 20mg, yes. At 50mg I get gyno sides.


 Hey man, have you maintained with the RU?

----------


## HARIRI

Anyone here is using Keratene Alphactive Retard along with RU58441? They seems like having same mechanism somehow. Please share your experience if you do.

By the way, I noticed that ever since I stopped my daily Saw Palmetto 500mg and started with one capsule of Keratene Alphactive Retard, my morning wood came back and my libido is like the one I had prior my hair loss period. Pretty interesting.

----------


## ajays

Great. Any changes it terms of quality of hair?

I have also started using the Keratene shampoo/serum. I think i like it so far compared to other organic/in-organic shampoos  i have been using so far (ever). Adds some volume to hair and does not make the hair look greasy. Whether it helps in terms of topical DHT reduction in the long term, only time will tell.




> Anyone here is using Keratene Alphactive Retard along with RU58441? They seems like having same mechanism somehow. Please share your experience if you do.
> 
> By the way, I noticed that ever since I stopped my daily Saw Palmetto 500mg and started with one capsule of Keratene Alphactive Retard, my morning wood came back and my libido is like the one I had prior my hair loss period. Pretty interesting.

----------


## clandestine

> Hey man, have you maintained with the RU?


 Not really, considering the dosage I'm taking. I take 10mg. Some people to as far as 100mg, though, with no issue.

----------


## UK Boy

> Not really, considering the dosage I'm taking. I take 10mg. Some people to as far as 100mg, though, with no issue.


 So RU isn't allowing you to maintain? What benefit are you getting from it then?

----------


## clandestine

> So RU isn't allowing you to maintain? What benefit are you getting from it then?


 Let me clarify;

I'm not taking a high enough dosage of RU to see an appreciable effect. I am very susceptible to sides experienced from anti-androgens.

My only option is to take a low dosage of RU, as it doesn't 'bother' me, so to speak. Taking a low dose is better than taking nothing, in my mind. It may have minimal effect, and that's all that matters, considering I can't take anything else.

----------


## HARIRI

> Let me clarify;
> 
> I'm not taking a high enough dosage of RU to see an appreciable effect. I am very susceptible to sides experienced from anti-androgens.
> 
> My only option is to take a low dosage of RU, as it doesn't 'bother' me, so to speak. Taking a low dose is better than taking nothing, in my mind. It may have minimal effect, and that's all that matters, considering I can't take anything else.


 I like your strategy and I'm thinking the same way of how you think. I'm very worried of high doses in anything I am taking. The reason why I'm going to take ONLY 1% RU is because I'm already taking one capsule of Keratene which its proven that it can reduce DHT level by 25%, also I'm applying Minoxidil 5% once a day as I noticed that applying it twice gives some forehead wrinkles, dark eye circles and itching sensation. So I wont risk with 5% RU at all, probably 2% maximum if needed but sense i am managing to maintain my DHT with Keratene then I don't think its needed to go for RU 2% since they almost do the same job after all. Its always good to stick with lower doses disregard which product it is.  :Smile:

----------


## Conpecia

FINALLY ordered Keratene capsules. Should be here in a couple weeks. Started minox two days ago, once a day at around 5:30PM when I get off work, then washing it off before bed about 7 hours later (the instructions say leave it on at least 4 hours). So far so good, eyes and face don't look as puffy or worn as they did last time I tried rogaine foam. Gonna order a good facial wash and some cream for under my eyes. Then I'll add 1 Keratene capsule a day, play the waiting game for the summer, and see what happens...

----------


## HARIRI

> FINALLY ordered Keratene capsules. Should be here in a couple weeks. Started minox two days ago, once a day at around 5:30PM when I get off work, then washing it off before bed about 7 hours later (the instructions say leave it on at least 4 hours). So far so good, eyes and face don't look as puffy or worn as they did last time I tried rogaine foam. Gonna order a good facial wash and some cream for under my eyes. Then I'll add 1 Keratene capsule a day, play the waiting game for the summer, and see what happens...


 Glad to hear this. Welcome to the club CONpecia  :Wink:

----------


## clandestine

Ill be following you closely Conpecia! Good steps forward.

----------


## ajays

Nice !!! Please keep me posted on your progress with minox. I had decided to never use it again (my face just recently recovered from it). If this process works well for you, then it might give me the confidence to try it again. 





> FINALLY ordered Keratene capsules. Should be here in a couple weeks. Started minox two days ago, once a day at around 5:30PM when I get off work, then washing it off before bed about 7 hours later (the instructions say leave it on at least 4 hours). So far so good, eyes and face don't look as puffy or worn as they did last time I tried rogaine foam. Gonna order a good facial wash and some cream for under my eyes. Then I'll add 1 Keratene capsule a day, play the waiting game for the summer, and see what happens...

----------


## everest13

Well after telling my parents about the side effects of fin, they are completely against it now, just the mention of the word impotence has made them horrified. I think i'm going to stick with keratene, the problem is they made me throw away most of the capsules earlier. I only have like 2 days worth of dosage left. An order of keratene might take 1-2 weeks to arrive here, if my dht levels revert back to their original levels during that time, would that mean the time i've been taking it for the past 5 weeks be useless?

----------


## everest13

> With anything above 20mg, yes. At 50mg I get gyno sides.


 what are some sides of gyno?

----------


## clandestine

> what are some sides of gyno?


 Soreness, swelling of your tits and /or nipples.

----------


## ajays

The possible sides are the only reason i opted for Keratene instead of Fin. I have decided to use Keratene capsules  for atleast 3 to 6 months to see if it makes any difference. Last option for me is Fin. It is unfortunate that you had to throw much of the capsules. They are not cheap in any case. 

I think your 5 weeks of Keratene usage will not be wasted. Assuming Keratene is working for you, it may have benefitted the follicles during the 5 weeks and in absence of further capsules it may take a week or two before DHT starts impacting the follicles again. So if you have made up your mind to stick to Keratene, order the capsules asap.

There are side effects to every medication, even aspirin. The only reason I gave Keratene a chance is because the company has a long history in the hair space, the product is said to be organic and there have been couple of clinical trials which proved that DHT is lowered. I personally consider taking them as if they are a replacement for saw palmetto. If I do get some sides out of Keratene I presume they may not be as serious as with Fin which is a synthetically engineered chemical compound. 






> Well after telling my parents about the side effects of fin, they are completely against it now, just the mention of the word impotence has made them horrified. I think i'm going to stick with keratene, the problem is they made me throw away most of the capsules earlier. I only have like 2 days worth of dosage left. An order of keratene might take 1-2 weeks to arrive here, if my dht levels revert back to their original levels during that time, would that mean the time i've been taking it for the past 5 weeks be useless?

----------


## Conpecia

Thanks guys, it will be good to finally attack MPB from a DHT and growth-stimulant combination. As I've said before, after quitting Propecia about 15 months ago, I've lost a ton of ground, going from NW2 to NW3 with no slowing in sight. Thankfully I've read that hair lost that recently is likely to be regained with a strong, consistent regimen and patience. If I can just get to where I was in late 2011 and then maintain it until I'm 30, I'll have zero complaints. I don't expect to ever get my full head of hair back, but I'll take maintenance and a little regrowth over continuing to lose hair any day.

----------


## Conpecia

Any of you guys who've been on the capsules the past couple months noticing anything? Reduction of shedding? Less hairs in the shower?

----------


## HARIRI

> Any of you guys who've been on the capsules the past couple months noticing anything? Reduction of shedding? Less hairs in the shower?


 To be honest, its almost a month since I started. I feel I have less hair falling every morning. Everyday before I shower, I usually oil my hair with coconut oil due to the dry nature of my hair. So after applying the oil I comb my hair backwards, I found out that the hair on my comb is much less than before. In my opinion, it definitely helps maintaining hair.  :Big Grin:

----------


## big time charlie

I'm about a month on the capsules now, added minox liquid 5% once a day about 2 weeks ago. Haven't had any shedding or sides on this combination. I do think the capsules stop quite a lot of the shedding....at least I'm noticing it less in day to day life right now.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> To be honest, its almost a month since I started. I feel I have less hair falling every morning. Everyday before I shower, I usually oil my hair with coconut oil due to the dry nature of my hair. So after applying the oil I comb my hair backwards, I found out that the hair on my comb is much less than before. In my opinion, it definitely helps maintaining hair.


 Can you post pics.

Otherwise this is going to turn into another MSM/vit c thread.

----------


## Jcm800

Tempted to get on this myself. Sack Whitfield once and for all. Least this stuff might actually do something.

----------


## StayThick

Anybody experiencing side effects to date?

----------


## ovoxo

started capsules today, fingers crosed

----------


## ajays

I have been on them a little of 3 weeks. Definitely seeing less hair falling around me, especially in the shower. I didnt want to say this until after atleast 2-3 months, but I am feeling that my hair has started to get a little bit thicker. Also, adding the shampoo and serum had made them more managable. Overall, my hair is "looking" healthier now compared to when it was tormented by minox before a few weeks. Hopefully, all this is not placebo effect. Keep you all posted.

No sides apart from feeling a little bit of fatigue during afternoon/evening. But it could be because of work rather than Keratene, who knows?




> Any of you guys who've been on the capsules the past couple months noticing anything? Reduction of shedding? Less hairs in the shower?

----------


## Boldy

I Had fatigue from it as well. but it deff inhibits my dht levels. less oily scalp.

----------


## shredder

I started the capsules (1/day, in addition to the shampoo 1/day, and the ultra complex 2-3/week) two weeks ago - no sides yet, in particular no libido issues and (most importantly) no erectile dysfunction (quite the contrary actually...).

of course too early for results - the topicals however have decreased my hairloss I think, and the itch is, quite simply, gone.

----------


## Jairus

Lads are u ordering from the keratene site or the prohairclinic?

The P+P from the prohairclinic is 22 quid!!! Even tho Im less than a 2 hr plane trip from them!

----------


## shredder

I order directly from keratene - but I'm in central europe, so it's round the corner, more or less.

----------


## Jairus

Ok sounds, cheers Shredder

----------


## burtandernie

Is there a place that sells this in the US and how much american dollars for the 180 pills? What are the ingredients in it so say I dont die from poison they put in it since its basically not regulated or proven or anything

----------


## Jasari

I'm giving it a go - Seeing as I'm on nothing, any improvement will be down to this. We'll see what happens.

----------


## HARIRI

> Is there a place that sells this in the US and how much american dollars for the 180 pills? What are the ingredients in it so say I dont die from poison they put in it since its basically not regulated or proven or anything


 Please read the first page of the thread  :Wink:

----------


## big time charlie

ugh....just starting my first minox shed, slightly depressed/ excited about it. Im going to buy more keratene capsules when I finish this course. I do think it works, I shed much less than I had been before I started on the kirkland. On the *** forum another member had his blood tested before he started keratene and he has been on it for over a month now, going to check his dht over the next while. He thinks its helping him maintain pretty well too So interested to see those results! I wish I had gone and done something similar but i have been really embarrassed by my hair loss to be honest. its getting easier with time though. feels good to be at least trying to do something about it anyway!

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Well, from what I have read it works the same way but as of yet, not many have got sides due to it surpressing 25% DHT and not *90% (like fin does)*


 Finasteride only suppresses 70%.

Dutasteride suppresses 91%.

None of these pills really regrow hair, just stop or slow down further loss, some lucky guys see regrowth. So I am curious to know what 25% would do, if anything at all.

----------


## ovoxo

> Why are people saying 25% reduction?
> 
> 1910 > 410....much more than 25%
> 
> I think their claim is that it doesnt effect T levels too much, which fin maybe does?
> 
> Check the stats in their study, its like a 70-80% reduction in DHT levels.


 so not just 25%

----------


## hellouser

> Finasteride only suppresses 70%.
> 
> Dutasteride suppresses 91%.
> 
> None of these pills really regrow hair, just stop or slow down further loss, some lucky guys see regrowth. So I am curious to know what 25% would do, if anything at all.


 On their own maybe not, but combined with something else, potentially yes (minox, RU, CB, etc)

----------


## HARIRI

> so not just 25&#37;


 I mentioned 25% for users who take one pill a day only based on one study 

http://www.prohairclinic.com/en/news...ve-finasteride

However if Keratene Alphactive Retard is taken twice a day maybe it will lower DHT by 50% or less.

For more results from using Keratene Alphactive Retard twice a day, you check this study as well...

http://www.prohairclinic.com/sites/d..._protected.pdf

----------


## burtandernie

I dont really buy the idea this works, but I have always liked the idea of a way to suppress DHT less then what propecia does. It just makes sense not everyone should be lowering DHT by 70 or whatever percent and that is even if you split it into .25mg its still super powerful.
That being said 180 pills is 130 US dollars so sorry way to much money for a supplement proven to do nothing. I can get generic propecia for way less money per month

----------


## ajays

Hariri,

Did you get a chance to do an after-Keratene DHT blood test?





> I mentioned 25% for users who take one pill a day only based on one study 
> 
> http://www.prohairclinic.com/en/news...ve-finasteride
> 
> However if Keratene Alphactive Retard is taken twice a day maybe it will lower DHT by 50% or less.
> 
> For more results from using Keratene Alphactive Retard twice a day, you check this study as well...
> 
> http://www.prohairclinic.com/sites/d..._protected.pdf

----------


## hellouser

> I dont really buy the idea this works, but I have always liked the idea of a way to suppress DHT less then what propecia does. It just makes sense not everyone should be lowering DHT by 70 or whatever percent and that is even if you split it into .25mg its still super powerful.
> That being said 180 pills is 130 US dollars so sorry way to much money for a supplement proven to do nothing. I can get generic propecia for way less money per month


 180 pills would last you 6 months at one per day. $130 for a 6 months supply isn't going to break the bank.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah I guess that is true. It does have a pretty small amount of evidence it works though and Im not sure about ordering stuff from other countries like supplements. I dont know maybe once its better known and its quality can be a little more assured. Its still a decent amount of money considering how much propecia that gets me

----------


## aim4hair

Guys, i have 2 questions:
1) should men stop taking keratene when they are trying to make a family ? (Like fin)
2) can women take this ? (Or it's not recommended for them to take it nor handle a pill with their hands as  the case with fin)

----------


## HARIRI

> Guys, i have 2 questions:
> 1) should men stop taking keratene when they are trying to make a family ? (Like fin)
> 2) can women take this ? (Or it's not recommended for them to take it nor handle a pill with their hands as  the case with fin)


 1) No, because it does not affect the person sexually. However If I was in your place I would stop it 3 days before trying to conceive a baby then take them again once the process is done.

2) Yes they can. They are recommended to take one pill a day. But they cant take it if they are pregnant of course.

----------


## HARIRI

> Hariri,
> 
> Did you get a chance to do an after-Keratene DHT blood test?


 No, its very expensive to do it. Im planning to do another test after I finish my supply in 6 months. Here in Dubai, DHT level testing isnt available so my samples should be sent to France for testing. I hope you can some other US member to do it as its available widely in the country. How about you? Did you test?

----------


## HARIRI

> 180 pills would last you 6 months at one per day. $130 for a 6 months supply isn't going to break the bank.


 Exactly, its pretty cheap for guys who plan to take it once a day. However screw the price, as long I found something that does not kill my penis and libido with lowering pretty good amount of DHT. Hair deserves ALL.  :Big Grin:

----------


## ajays

I have a scheduled appt with my derma in a month's time. I am hoping to get a blood test prescription for DHT. Hopefully it will get covered through insurance.





> No, its very expensive to do it. Im planning to do another test after I finish my supply in 6 months. Here in Dubai, DHT level testing isnt available so my samples should be sent to France for testing. I hope you can some other US member to do it as its available widely in the country. How about you? Did you test?

----------


## ajays

Agree ! Fin is last option for me, I dont care how cheap it is. 

It maybe the Keratene guys are charging a premium because it actually works without any major side effects like Fin, etc. (of course I dont buy that there will be absolutely no side effects, but in my opinion they will only be on the milder side compared to synthetic chemical compounds such as Fin)





> Exactly, its pretty cheap for guys who plan to take it once a day. However screw the price, as long I found something that does not kill my penis and libido with lowering pretty good amount of DHT. Hair deserves ALL.

----------


## hellouser

> Yeah I guess that is true. It does have a pretty small amount of evidence it works though and Im not sure about ordering stuff from other countries like supplements. I dont know maybe once its better known and its quality can be a little more assured. Its still a decent amount of money considering how much propecia that gets me


 If you combine it with other stuff like Minox, RU and CB it could give for some serious results and proper maintenance.

I'm currently on an RU/Minox regimen and waiting for almost a years supply of CB (though will probably use more per dosage, so probably about 6 months supply. I'm seriously thinking about adding keratene to the mix and seeing how things go, as I currently think Saw Palmetto is a really weak DHT inhibitor (better than nothing though)

----------


## Jcm800

I'm thinking of jumping on this. So in theory 180 capsules one a day is going to last a long time.  What is the dosage exactly? I read somewhere that you take according to your bloods? No idea what mine are so assume one a day would be safe initially?

----------


## burtandernie

I dont know how much faith I have in a random supplement making these claims but I do think propecia is too powerful in a lot of cases even split into .25mg it still inhibits a whole lot of DHT. Some men probably do not need to lower DHT that much.

----------


## burtandernie

> If you combine it with other stuff like Minox, RU and CB it could give for some serious results and proper maintenance.
> 
> I'm currently on an RU/Minox regimen and waiting for almost a years supply of CB (though will probably use more per dosage, so probably about 6 months supply. I'm seriously thinking about adding keratene to the mix and seeing how things go, as I currently think Saw Palmetto is a really weak DHT inhibitor (better than nothing though)


 Yeah saw palmetto is too weak to do anything for your hair IMO and those other things you mention are not options to me since none of them are approved for public use. I dont buy chemicals of unknown origins from random companies its just way too risky to me.
If I wanted to trade my health for my hair I could pop some oral spiro or dut or some crazy prostate cancer treatments. I am just trying to maintain while not sacrificing anything else.

----------


## burtandernie

If anyone gets their DHT levels tested with before/after trying this post them here so we can see objectively whether it at least works for some people. I am pretty skeptical they need to prove to me this works not me try it and guess if I think it does.

----------


## Conpecia

there have been studies with people doing just that. do more research. also several HT doctors offer this and are confident in it. not saying that's definitive proof; i'd like to see one of the BTT guys post before and after dht levels. but i do know it's not just some company saying a bunch of bs with nothing to back it up.

----------


## burtandernie

I think its suspicious that they say you need to use the shampoo and other things along with those supplement pills to get results. 
The pills alone are the only thing there could possibly help because shampoo is not going to make any major difference in MPB I mean even niz has minor regrowth at best.
I tried random hair loss shampoos like revivogen and those none of them do anything despite the random cool sounding ingredients like saw palmetto or whatever.

----------


## burtandernie

Not to rain on anyone parade, but the size of the study they had was like 13 guys. That is way too small to find sides if they do exist for some men. The sides from fin are directly from lowering DHT levels so if this actually lowers DHT levels to a real degree your going to get sides just as if you took weaker doses of finasteride.
Just because their small study did not find sides does not mean there are not any especially given how new it is with small evidence in comparison to propecia.

----------


## Jasari

> Not to rain on anyone parade, but the size of the study they had was like 13 guys. That is way too small to find sides if they do exist for some men. The sides from fin are directly from lowering DHT levels so if this actually lowers DHT levels to a real degree your going to get sides just as if you took weaker doses of finasteride.
> Just because their small study did not find sides does not mean there are not any especially given how new it is with small evidence in comparison to propecia.


 I've actually ordered tablets; but I have been unable to find how the mechanism differs from that of finasteride i.e. The reason they believe sexual sides will not occur with Keratene. 

If they are in fact a lower strength version of Finasteride I wouldn't touch it.

----------


## HARIRI

> I've actually ordered tablets; but I have been unable to find how the mechanism differs from that of finasteride i.e. The reason they believe sexual sides will not occur with Keratene. 
> 
> If they are in fact a lower strength version of Finasteride I wouldn't touch it.


 I got these answers from the Keratene main company (HAIRCLINICS). Please read them.

*How does it work?*

The molecules works not by inhibiting the production of 5ard enzyme or by regulation the secretion of hormones, but rather by attaching itself by electro-chemical valence to the 5ard enzyme and acting as an insulating factor.
As such, the transfer of atoms of hydrogen to the testosterone molecule happens in a lower ratio.
This leads in turn to an overall reduction of DHT.
As such, the 5ard enzyme production and the testosterone hormone are left untouched.
The only thing which happens in a lesser amount, is the transformation of T into DHT.

*Are there differences between KaR and finasteride?*

Yes. K&#233;ratene alphactive Retarde is completely different than finasteride.
Finasteride is a synthetically engineered molecule, with specific chemical properties.
K&#233;ratene alphactive Retarde is an organic compound, not synthetically engineered.
Finasteride has the chemical potential to penetrate the blood brain barrier (see latest FDA updates on fda.gov) and has the bio-chemical potential to influence the pineal gland, the processes that coordinate the production of lutropin, the correlation of the sex-binding hormone globulin, dhea, and many other related factors.
In addition, it may increase on the long run the risk on malign prostate neoplasm with roughly 1.6&#37;.
Because the body perceives its molecule as a foreign chemical, the metabolic processes employed by the body to follows the same pathways as any other medication (see cytokine reduction), whereas in regard to KaR, the body process the substance as an organic element.

----------


## Jcm800

Since taking this, has anyone noticed any changes for better or worse?

----------


## burtandernie

Things are never simple with this stuff, but propecia works because it lowers DHT not the way it lowers it such as the 5 ar 2 enzyme. So if this lowers DHT its giving you the same sides probably even if it does it in a different way.
I think lowering DHT to a much lesser extent then propecia could be good though but then of course you might not slow down hair loss as much.

----------


## Jasari

> I got these answers from the Keratene main company (HAIRCLINICS). Please read them.
> 
> *How does it work?*
> 
> The molecules works not by inhibiting the production of 5ard enzyme or by regulation the secretion of hormones, but rather by attaching itself by electro-chemical valence to the 5ard enzyme and acting as an insulating factor.
> As such, the transfer of atoms of hydrogen to the testosterone molecule happens in a lower ratio.
> This leads in turn to an overall reduction of DHT.
> As such, the 5ard enzyme production and the testosterone hormone are left untouched.
> The only thing which happens in a lesser amount, is the transformation of T into DHT.
> ...


 Thanks mate - My hair is actually starting to thin in the crown for the first time since I started thinning; I should be able to get a clear idea of whether this works.

----------


## ajays

Not sure from where you are getting this info. Propecia is a direct 5ard enzyme inhibitor (lookup Wikipedia and other places),which in turn causes drop in DHT. The side effects from propecia (especially libido related) are from 5ard reduction, not specifically dht reduction. If Keratene claims are true i.e. they don't interfere with amount of 5ard, then it's very plausible that there are no major side effects.

In any case, every person has to make their own decision based on what they are comfortable with. 

Having said that, I think taking Keratene is much better than taking saw palmetto as atleast there have been couple of clinical studies and HT doctor reviews for KaR compared to saw palmetto. I have decided to go the organic route with KaR for at least 6 months and then decide whether to switch to Fin or maybe Gin  :Smile: 




> Things are never simple with this stuff, but propecia works because it lowers DHT not the way it lowers it such as the 5 ar 2 enzyme. So if this lowers DHT its giving you the same sides probably even if it does it in a different way.
> I think lowering DHT to a much lesser extent then propecia could be good though but then of course you might not slow down hair loss as much.

----------


## burtandernie

The reason inhibiting the 5 ar 2 enzyme does anything for hair loss is because it lowers your DHT levels. Lowering the DHT levels is why finasteride works. Whether you do it this way or that way if your DHT levels are lowered enough to affect MPB then its all the same.
Of course its always possible through some unknown of which there are plenty of it does work differently somehow.

----------


## ajays

Agree that fin works because of DHT is lowered. From what i have read so far, the benefits are because DHT is lowered and side effects are because 5ard is lowered.




> The reason inhibiting the 5 ar 2 enzyme does anything for hair loss is because it lowers your DHT levels. Lowering the DHT levels is why finasteride works. Whether you do it this way or that way if your DHT levels are lowered enough to affect MPB then its all the same.
> Of course its always possible through some unknown of which there are plenty of it does work differently somehow.

----------


## burtandernie

> Agree that fin works because of DHT is lowered. From what i have read so far, the benefits are because DHT is lowered and side effects are because 5ard is lowered.


 I would say both the benefits and sides are directly from the DHT being lowered regardless of how its done. DHT is the most potent male hormone so by lowering it your going to have sides whether you do it through their claimed process or through the enzyme that switches T to DHT. 
Just my opinion that in theory they should be the same if this product reduced DHT the same amount as fin. I could certainly be wrong with how complex it all is and all the unknowns anything is possible.
I am just interested in this if it turns out to work because I want to keep the hair I have now, but I want to inhibit less DHT then what propecia does. Propecia makes a big change in DHT levels which is certainly not a wise move for some men.

----------


## LongWayHome

Dear balding friends, I just wanted to inform you that there was a man
back in the 60's that was balding and wrote a song called "while my hair gently weeps" but then George harrison came and no one ever heard of that song.

Now for real:
I'm back on 1 capsule a day, at nights, for a few months to wait and see what happens. Still using the topicals, adding RU premixed 5&#37; from mpb's which probably won't work and minox 15%.
"So, how will you know what's working there and what's not?"

Well...I'm desperate.

"What's your worst fear?"
Being bald, of course...

"What's your favorite color?"
Brown, as my hair.

"What is your favorite food?"
Keratene capsules.

"What's your favorite song?"
While my hair gently weeps.

"You mean 'while my guitar gently weeps' "
No.

I'll keep you updated.

----------


## HARIRI

> I'm back on 1 capsule a day, at nights, for a few months to wait and see what happens. Still using the topicals, adding RU premixed 5% from mpb's which probably won't work and minox 15%.


 LongWayHome, I feel for you Bro. Just a brotherly advice, Avoid using 15% minoxidil, you will have terrible sides such as itching, some rapid heart beats and dark eye circles. 15% is too much even if applied once a day. You can try the 10% if you insist. I'm a victim of the 15% Minoxidil before.

Also regarding the mild sexual sides, The RU could lead you to some mild one is it plays with Androgen receptors as well. My advice is that you start with 1% then upgrade to 2% and slowly go up to 5%. Im actually planning to start the 1% RU from Mpb along with my Minoxidil 5% once a day before bed time.

I wish you all the growth Buddy  :Wink:

----------


## thechamp

So what's the reason behind blocking dht and weight gain I'm booking a doctors appointment tommrow, going to check that my thyroid is fine and a hormone test any one take fin and worked out why some gain weight?

----------


## LongWayHome

> LongWayHome, I feel for you Bro. Just a brotherly advice, Avoid using 15% minoxidil, you will have terrible sides such as itching, some rapid heart beats and dark eye circles. 15% is too much even if applied once a day. You can try the 10% if you insist. I'm a victim of the 15% Minoxidil before.
> 
> Also regarding the mild sexual sides, The RU could lead you to some mild one is it plays with Androgen receptors as well. My advice is that you start with 1% then upgrade to 2% and slowly go up to 5%. Im actually planning to start the 1% RU from Mpb along with my Minoxidil 5% once a day before bed time.
> 
> I wish you all the growth Buddy


 Actually man, I took minox 15% for like 6 months in the past and then stopped due to price.
Now when I'm not in the military and I work I got the money so I'm going to get back. I used 1ml and nothing bad happened before.
BTW, I talk to someone from Keratene daily, asking question and everything in the email, and when I asked him what is profession is, he told me "One question too much". Why would he tell me that unless they're killing people and making capsules from them? He's probably even watching this now,
so, man, I don't understand the big secret.

----------


## HARIRI

> Actually man, I took minox 15% for like 6 months in the past and then stopped due to price.
> Now when I'm not in the military and I work I got the money so I'm going to get back. I used 1ml and nothing bad happened before.
> BTW, I talk to someone from Keratene daily, asking question and everything in the email, and when I asked him what is profession is, he told me "One question too much". Why would he tell me that unless they're killing people and making capsules from them? He's probably even watching this now,
> so, man, I don't understand the big secret.


 Which brand are using for Minoxidil 15%? Could you please tell me?  :Smile:

----------


## LongWayHome

I'm using Minoxidil................Max.
I think it's the stronget minox for now.

----------


## Cob984

Here my update guys:
I take the capsules 3-4 times a week and use the serum/shampoo 2-3 times a week
I also use niz once every 5 days, also just started using a saw palmetto topical and shampoo on the remaining days

Hair is still not doing too great but i feel like its getting worse at a slower pace than before which is acceptable i guess since i am not even taking 1 capsule a day as intended, So im gona continue, 

Sides - Like longway got the extremely crappy penile shrink, libidio still ok so im continuing
Fat gain/muscle loss - keeping it from going outa control by working out, Feel like i have to work out a lot more now, and even then i hardly build muscle like i used to, Also i do feel tired faster than before
Gyno - Had sensitivity / pain for 2-3 weeks in nipples but this has since stopped troubling me, think the DIM and Resveratrol helped a lot
Fatigue

----------


## HARIRI

> Here my update guys:
> I take the capsules 3-4 times a week and use the serum/shampoo 2-3 times a week
> I also use niz once every 5 days, also just started using a saw palmetto topical and shampoo on the remaining days


 I believe Keratene company warned you 

ATTENTION: DO NOT COMBINE KÉRATENE® alphactive retard with any of the older DHT decreasing medicines!

So you are making a big mistake by adding a saw palmetto agent into your regime.  :Frown:

----------


## HARIRI

> I'm using Minoxidil................Max.
> I think it's the stronget minox for now.


 Aha you mean DualGen-15 (15% minoxidil +5% Azelaic), how is the texture of it? Is it light like Regaine? or thicker and more greasy?

----------


## LongWayHome

WTF Cob you got the shrink even with 4-5 capsules a week????
I'm hopeless then........
Hoping for good.
The person from Keratene told me to go on 1 capsule a day and that I'm too young (22) for that shrinkage to continue and that he's sure it will be fine with time and I'll even be able to get on 2 capsules a day.
But I have no idea what is profession is cause it's "one question too much",
so for me he can be exactly like me, only works in Keratene as a service man.
If I would know that man has some medical experience I could be very calm.

Edit: HARIRI, it is thicker and mre greasy but I think it does something.

----------


## Cob984

> I believe Keratene company warned you 
> 
> ATTENTION: DO NOT COMBINE KÉRATENE® alphactive retard with any of the older DHT decreasing medicines!
> 
> So you are making a big mistake by adding a saw palmetto agent into your regime.


 The chris andersen dude from keratene said it was perfectly fine to add topical saw palmetto on days i dont use the serum???
Im confused now, though i think the previous customer service guy not to use anything else with the topicals, wtf

----------


## HARIRI

> The chris andersen dude from keratene said it was perfectly fine to add topical saw palmetto on days i dont use the serum???
> Im confused now, though i think the previous customer service guy not to use anything else with the topicals, wtf


 Just follow my advice Bro, I spoke on phone with the big boss Mr. Marc Costin, He said not to use any DHT lowering ingredient with it. Just use their product line capsules and serum if you wish. No finasteride or beta sitasterol or saw palmetto. You will definitely get sides this way. Im sure about it Buddy.

----------


## HARIRI

> .
> 
> Edit: HARIRI, it is thicker and mre greasy but I think it does something.


 
I was using Dual Gen 10 (Minoxidil 10%+Azelaic Acid 5%). It sucked and it left a lot of residue in my hair that it wont be washed easily and will make hair look dull. Try to order from mpbtreatments.com, I heard that their Minoxidil 15% isnt sticky and much better than other brands.

----------


## Cob984

> Just follow my advice Bro, I spoke on phone with the big boss Mr. Marc Costin, He said not to use any DHT lowering ingredient with it. Just use their product line capsules and serum if you wish. No finasteride or beta sitasterol or saw palmetto. You will definitely get sides this way. Im sure about it Buddy.


 Hmm not really worried about sides, just topical compatibility, i dont want the topicals to interfere with one another, topical saw palmetto has never given me sides and the other sides i mentioned were while only on keratene since i just added the topical saw palmetto 3 days ago?

----------


## Jcm800

I'm in two minds about ordering this stuff. Then again, nothing else is helping..

----------


## ajays

Update: been on the KaR capsules for a little over a month now. I am seeing a little bit of shed now for past 2-3 days (for the last couple of weeks, the minox shed I used to have had stopped). This shed is not as huge or dramatic as the one I had with minox, but I am see small or medium sized hairs in my hands when I shampoo in the shower. Other than that I dont see any hairs coming out when I comb or on the pillow. What do you guys think, is this shed a positive sign? I havent used Fin before so I dont know. Did you guys get an initial shed with Fin?

----------


## HARIRI

> Update: been on the KaR capsules for a little over a month now. I am seeing a little bit of shed now for past 2-3 days (for the last couple of weeks, the minox shed I used to have had stopped). This shed is not as huge or dramatic as the one I had with minox, but I am see small or medium sized hairs in my hands when I shampoo in the shower. Other than that I dont see any hairs coming out when I comb or on the pillow. What do you guys think, is this shed a positive sign? I havent used Fin before so I dont know. Did you guys get an initial shed with Fin?


 I had initial shed with using Propecia back in 2006. But Im not certain if the shed came from Finasteride or Minoxidil because I was using Minoxidil along with it. In my case, I didnt get any shed since starting the Keratene but what Im really sure of is that Im losing much much less hair than before while combing my hair. With one month passed by, I didnt see any growth but I can see MUCH LESS hair fall.

----------


## ajays

Thanks. I guess I am seeing similar initial shed symptoms as James on the prohairclinic feedback site. Will have to wait and watch.....

http://www.prohairclinic.be/page/100...us-buyers-said

Hariri,
Follow-up question - when you were on Fin, did you notice any decrease in skin oiliness, especially on the face? I am hoping that if KaR reduces DHT it will also reduce face oil.




> I had initial shed with using Propecia back in 2006. But Im not certain if the shed came from Finasteride or Minoxidil because I was using Minoxidil along with it. In my case, I didnt get any shed since starting the Keratene but what Im really sure of is that Im losing much much less hair than before while combing my hair. With one month passed by, I didnt see any growth but I can see MUCH LESS hair fall.

----------


## GuyFromUK

I am all for Keratene working as it will be an amazing alternative for people who get sides from Fin or who are too scared to take it. It will be a game changer for millions of men worldwide.

However, I wouldn't believe the reviews on the Prohairclinc website in the link that's been posted. Prohairclinic are selling this product and the reviews on their site look a little fake. I wouldn't trust this James guy to be a genuine person.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah I agree I mean given our current options I think anything as a possible alternative to fin is a great thing. I just dont trust this is it. Its sketchy at best far from a tried and true tested alternative to finasteride.
One day we will finally get a safe way to keep hair yet alone regrowing it. My hope is CB 03 01 will be it. Sadly its so far away.

----------


## everest13

I just received my blood test. Before taking anything my dht was 1.08 nmol/l. Now after keratene 1 capsule daily it only dropped to 0.993 nmol/l. there is hardly any change...

----------


## Cob984

> I just received my blood test. Before taking anything my dht was 1.08 nmol/l. Now after keratene 1 capsule daily it only dropped to 0.993 nmol/l. there is hardly any change...


 wtf, suggest you let keratene know and ask them whatsup,
dont tell me im suffering through these sides for no reason

----------


## ajays

If i remember correctly, you had mentioned earlier that your original DHT levels were already low/within reference range. I am sorry to say but taking Keratene or Propecia is not likely to reduce your DHT by a big factor. I think only people with moderate/high DHT might see a noticeable drop if any. I am not a doctor but in my opinion, your hair loss may not be DHT related. Trying to reducing your DHT further if it's already under reference range might do you more harm than good.




> I just received my blood test. Before taking anything my dht was 1.08 nmol/l. Now after keratene 1 capsule daily it only dropped to 0.993 nmol/l. there is hardly any change...

----------


## everest13

> If i remember correctly, you had mentioned earlier that your original DHT levels were already low/within reference range. I am sorry to say but taking Keratene or Propecia is not likely to reduce your DHT by a big factor. I think only people with moderate/high DHT might see a noticeable drop if any. I am not a doctor but in my opinion, your hair loss may not be DHT related. Trying to reducing your DHT further if it's already under reference range might do you more harm than good.


 Yes it was within the reference range. However the company had still said it should still reduce it much more significantly than the amount ive seen it reduced by. I assumed my follicles just have high sensitivity to DHT. I dont know what other reason I could be losing my hair. Im losing it in the typical norwood pattern. at temples +crown + thinning on top. My uncle from my mothers side also was losing his hair at a young age of 19-20

----------


## ajays

That is possible. I assume you got your DHT tests done through a dermatologist? What's his/her assessment? Just curious, please don't mind me asking. 




> Yes it was within the reference range. However the company had still said it should still reduce it much more significantly than the amount ive seen it reduced by. I assumed my follicles just have high sensitivity to DHT. I dont know what other reason I could be losing my hair. Im losing it in the typical norwood pattern. at temples +crown + thinning on top. My uncle from my mothers side also was losing his hair at a young age of 19-20

----------


## everest13

> That is possible. I assume you got your DHT tests done through a dermatologist? What's his/her assessment? Just curious, please don't mind me asking.


 No it was just through a lab. Havent been able to discuss the results with anyone tbh.

----------


## ajays

My brotherly advice would be to take the results to a dermatologist and discuss next steps. 

I want to get my DHT levels tested as well. Was this in the US? Can you please let me know the name of the lab?




> No it was just through a lab. Havent been able to discuss the results with anyone tbh.

----------


## everest13

> My brotherly advice would be to take the results to a dermatologist and discuss next steps. 
> 
> I want to get my DHT levels tested as well. Was this in the US? Can you please let me know the name of the lab?


 No this wasnt in the US

----------


## Stublue

So a quick update. I only had a HT with Dr. Bisanga 7 weeks ago so want to help maintain what I have so I have been on the capsules (1 a day) for the last 5 weeks or so. To be honest I haven't really noticed any change in my hair loss but in fairness my hair loss seems to be very slow and continues to be. I certainly havent noticed any shedding and hair loss is minimal but again, im not entirely sure that's to do with the meds (I'm also on 5&#37; generic minox) or whether i just have a slow receding pattern.

One thing is for certain though, i haven't experienced any side effects. I definitely suffered from lower libido with fin (which I gave up around 6 months ago) and my body hair reduced (not such a bad thing I suppose!!). I also lost all my morning woods on fin. All these symptoms are not present with keratene so this is only a good thing! Morning woods are as good as ever!!

----------


## burtandernie

> I just received my blood test. Before taking anything my dht was 1.08 nmol/l. Now after keratene 1 capsule daily it only dropped to 0.993 nmol/l. there is hardly any change...


 Makes sense why a lot of people dont get sides from this its because it doesnt work. If you lower DHT enough you might get sides but your helping your hair. If you want to lower DHT your best off taking propecia or even a tiny dose because we know it lowers DHT unlike this product which has flimsy evidence at best.

----------


## ajays

Have already made my comments on this in my earlier posts above, but still...

His DHT levels are already quite low/within range and it is wishful thinking to expect a huge drop. Still with Keratene he was able to achieve a drop of 8&#37;. It is possible that people with high DHT may see a much bigger percentage drop. I am taking this as a positive sign. I agree there is no conclusive evidence from forum users yet, but the product is new and only the next 6 months or so will prove whether it works or not. 

Why would you recommend propecia to him? To drop his already low DHT to 0 and get sides as a bonus? Is that going to be a healthy scenario? If sides are indeed necessary to prove efficacy then it should noted that Cob and some users have been getting some sides with Keratene.


[QUOTE=burtandernie;114069]Makes sense why a lot of people dont get sides from this its because it doesnt work. If you lower DHT enough you might get sides but your helping your hair. If you want to lower DHT your best off taking propecia or even a tiny dose because we know it lowers DHT unlike this product which has flimsy evidence at best.[/QUO

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

[QUOTE=ajays;114074]Have already made my comments on this in my earlier posts above, but still...

His DHT levels are already quite low/within range and it is wishful thinking to expect a huge drop. Still with Keratene he was able to achieve a drop of 8%. It is possible that people with high DHT may see a much bigger percentage drop. I am taking this as a positive sign. I agree there is no conclusive evidence from forum users yet, but the product is new and only the next 6 months or so will prove whether it works or not. 

Why would you recommend propecia to him? To drop his already low DHT to 0 and get sides as a bonus? Is that going to be a healthy scenario? If sides are indeed necessary to prove efficacy then it should noted that Cob and some users have been getting some sides with Keratene.





> Makes sense why a lot of people dont get sides from this its because it doesnt work. If you lower DHT enough you might get sides but your helping your hair. If you want to lower DHT your best off taking propecia or even a tiny dose because we know it lowers DHT unlike this product which has flimsy evidence at best.[/QUO


 
Yeah - thats probably why he got sides on fin, he has v low DHT levels to begin with.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I'm in two minds about ordering this stuff. Then again, nothing else is helping..


 You have nothing to lose, and by the looks of it, not many are getting sides.

----------


## Conpecia

FINALLY got my capsules! Going to start tomorrow at one a day. Will give it a month then move to two a day if there are no sides.

----------


## vinnytr

please keep reporting your experiences on this guys .
I am in desperate need of something that works

----------


## ovoxo

2 weeks - 1 capsule a day, no side effects, will give it another week with 1 capsule a day then move to 2 capsules a day; too soon to see some positive effect on hair I think

----------


## hellouser

> 2 weeks - 1 capsule a day, no side effects, will give it another week with 1 capsule a day then move to 2 capsules a day; too soon to see some positive effect on hair I think


 Definitely too soon, hair growth cycle lasts 2 months or more. You'll need quite a bit of time and persistence to see results before hair grows in and turns terminal. At worst, you could maintain your hair long enough until Aderans and Histogen are available.

Don't stop too early, keep at it.

----------


## Cob984

Starting to lose a little faith in the product, im having around 5 capsules a week now, using shampoo+serum 3x a week as well, but my hair is deteriorating, just looking so lifeless recently, has me very worried because if this doesnt do it my hair is history

Will probably switch from sercomplex to ultra topical and give it another go

----------


## hellouser

> Starting to lose a little faith in the product, im having around 5 capsules a week now, using shampoo+serum 3x a week as well, but my hair is deteriorating, just looking so lifeless recently, has me very worried because if this doesnt do it my hair is history
> 
> Will probably switch from sercomplex to ultra topical and give it another go


 Perhaps youre going through a shed?

----------


## Cob984

I hope so, but im not really losing more hair than usual, just looking really thin and when i run my hands through it just feels sparse

----------


## Henkeh91

I'm about to order the capsules but my hair is thinned out all over the head (except back or the sides) like this guy to the right:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cAxpRnn1bz...h/Propecia.png. Except I've got blonde hair.

The Prohairclinic site says:
"This product is not effective in cases of alopecia totalis, alopecia universalis and alopecia androgenetica NW4, NW5 and NW6 as well as Ludwig 3 where total loss of hair density has already occured."

Is it worth buying or is it just waste of money?

----------


## clandestine

> I hope so, but im not really losing more hair than usual, just looking really thin and when i run my hands through it just feels sparse


 Are you experiencing side effects from taking Keratene capsules?

You had mentioned before you were having issues with penis shrinkage, Cob. Is this at all true still?

----------


## Cob984

yea it is, 
Also still have the fatigue and mild cognitive sides, today i used serum plus popped the pills 2 days in a row and i feel like a complete daze, still hair looking like shit

I feel defeated right now

----------


## HARIRI

> yea it is, 
> Also still have the fatigue and mild cognitive sides, today i used serum plus popped the pills 2 days in a row and i feel like a complete daze, still hair looking like shit
> 
> I feel defeated right now


 COB984

Im not a doctor or an expert, but I would advice you from the heart not take the serum along with capsules. Its not good in my opinion. They told me that the recommended dose of Keratene which 2 capsules a day contain 1g of Sterol Complex. This is the maximum dose that a man could tolerate safely. Anything above it will affect the metabolism of Vitamin A and you will feel the fatigue more. 

Try to make a final decision of whether to take the Capsules or Serum alone. However you can use their shampoo as its not a big deal. If I were you, I would take the capsules and apply some minoxidil topically. "Too much of a thing is not a good thing".

Good luck Bro.

----------


## Cob984

from hairloss talk
"2.5 months on Keratene after dropping Saw Palmetto and CET..and I have lost a lot of ground

Keratene gives me skin rashes periodically and I have body hair growth spurts in certain areas, while other areas it has subsided...I have read reports where Keratene had grown back body hair that had, for some reason, been lost...

Don't know what is going on with Keratene, but so far it isn't good at this point..one thing for sure, Keratene doesn't not give you sexual sides at all...but I don't know if its powerful enough...going to bring in a smaller dose of Saw Palmetto to help push the matte""

Not looking good guys, i am also experiencing a lot of temple recession recently which is very disconcerting, my hair isnt exactly responding and the sides are irritating

----------


## clandestine

2.5 months is not long enough, you know this already.

The guy says sexual sides aren't possible on Keratene, yet you yourself are experiencing them, Cob? How can you then take anything this poster says at face value, if it is contradictory to your own experiences?

----------


## Cob984

hes a very legit poster over there,
Also i experienced penile shrinkage but my libido is still fine, saw palmetto damages it more than keratene does,
I have increased my intake of the capsules, i have it 5 times a week now with the serum/shampoo remaining 2 days, and my hair is looking very thin, i am also losing ground on the temples, this has me worried

----------


## Cob984

Guys How are the rest of you responding to the capsules hair wise?

I just wrote to keratene customer service and got the most ridiculous answer which doesnt inspire confidence of any kind.---See responses below

I have no idea why, can be an immense number of factors.
Simply quit the therapy and use something more conventional.

Yes, indeed, it seems the product does not really help in your case (it can happen actually) and in this situation it’s best to consider other options.
There are other products on the market that might help, eg. Priorin vitamins or the amino acids ampules from Crescina Switzerland. You could give them a try...
Regarding DHT management, you can try some new, experimental substances or even enroll in some clinical trials in India or Asia. Usually such events are posted on medical forums of the endocrinology faculties or university hospitals. I guess it’s worth looking into this detail.

----------


## LongWayHome

Cob, on the other hand this is a very objective answer,
I thought they would tell you "Keep using it for another 6 months and then take a decision." They admit that their product is not "perfect".
Now off the topic, do you use the serum on a wet or dry scalp?
Still confuses me.

----------


## Cob984

They are encouraging me to try absolutely dodgy products and alternatives?
I can understand if they say maybe your hair doesnt respond to dht reduction, but to say use another dht blocker shows 0 confidence in the product

Serum on a wet hot scalp,
Btw let me know how the RU works

----------


## ovoxo

one user from *** got his levels tested before using, and is expected to post after keratene levels, so we'll know...

----------


## ajays

Cob,
Sorry to hear the problems you are facing. Sincerely hope things will get better for you. 

Have been using it for around 6 weeks. I can cautiously say that I feel my hair quality is getting a tab better. Also, when my hair was thinning rapidly, I could "feel" the weight on my head (due to hair) getting lesser and lesser - you know what i mean. Since starting on this I am no longer getting that feeling. Having said that, I have a long way to go, I am not ready to declare victory yet, need to give it atleast 3 months or more. I recently upped the dose to 2x/day, no obvious sides as yet.

Over to our other correspondent...Hariri....  :Smile: 




> Guys How are the rest of you responding to the capsules hair wise?
> 
> I just wrote to keratene customer service and got the most ridiculous answer which doesnt inspire confidence of any kind.---See responses below
> 
> I have no idea why, can be an immense number of factors.
> Simply quit the therapy and use something more conventional.
> 
> Yes, indeed, it seems the product does not really help in your case (it can happen actually) and in this situation it’s best to consider other options.
> There are other products on the market that might help, eg. Priorin vitamins or the amino acids ampules from Crescina Switzerland. You could give them a try...
> Regarding DHT management, you can try some new, experimental substances or even enroll in some clinical trials in India or Asia. Usually such events are posted on medical forums of the endocrinology faculties or university hospitals. I guess it’s worth looking into this detail.

----------


## abrorcasanova

Been on the pills for a month or so, started quite good, no sides no nothing.
Unfortunately and quite stupidly started at the same time with Minox! So about retention cant really say, because I am still losing/shedding hair lost quite a bit of density. But after second week, I started to have really loww fatique, really cloudy head everyone pointed that I am not really present or look just plain tired and I felt like it. Stopped the pills just for now to check if its the pills or minox that somehow affects me.

But as said before never seen any reduction in hairloss unfortunately.

----------


## ajays

Yeah - better to try one at a time to see which one is giving you the sides. The symptoms you mentioned, I was getting exact same ones on minox. After a while I also started getting puffy eyes and skin rashes. Stopped minox completely and was back to normal in 2 weeks. People around me really could tell the difference.





> Been on the pills for a month or so, started quite good, no sides no nothing.
> Unfortunately and quite stupidly started at the same time with Minox! So about retention cant really say, because I am still losing/shedding hair lost quite a bit of density. But after second week, I started to have really loww fatique, really cloudy head everyone pointed that I am not really present or look just plain tired and I felt like it. Stopped the pills just for now to check if its the pills or minox that somehow affects me.
> 
> But as said before never seen any reduction in hairloss unfortunately.

----------


## shredder

guys,

let me give you a short update: I started using the topicals (shampoo + ultra complex) at the end of january. as you can see from my previous posts I was pretty pleased with the products, as my hairloss seemed to lessen, and my hair simply felt great (most of the time). no sides at all.

about a month ago, I started taking the capsules (1/day) in addition to the topicals, and from week 2 onwards, I noticed that my hair loss increased again; particularly, I also noticed a loss of shorter hair from my temple region. a week ago, I increased the dose to 2 capsules every other day (i.e., 2 on monday, 1 on tuesday, 2 on wednesday, etc), and by the looks of it, this makes me shed even more. also, I now have very very minor discomfort in my groin area (it isn't really painful, and compared to what I experienced when I tried fin, it's nothing, but I just feel "something"). libido has definitely not been affected by the capsules, no erectile problems, not at all, maybe even the contrary.

I'm now wondering: can the increased shedding be a sign that the capsules are actually working, similar to the well-known "fin-shed"? looking at the hairs that I am loosing, they are not minaturized or anything, mostly just normal hair of medium thickness. has anyone asked the keratene guys whether or not a shed like this can be expected when taking the capsules?

----------


## Cob984

Thats exactly like me mate shredder, i too started the topicals first and was very pleased, but things have gone downhill since, 
My temples are taking an absolute beating and also the hair that i lose is not miniaturized either, 
I dont know whether to drop this yet and restart saw palmetto and just work with the topicals and perhaps get on RU as well

----------


## shredder

cob, hmm, I think the main question is whether or not this shed is a good sign...I'm also torn between going back to the topicals-only strategy or continuing for another month.

have you asked the keratene guys about the shed?

----------


## Cob984

You can see how the keratene customer service responded in my recent posts,
quite ridiculous to be honest

----------


## ajays

shredder, 
Reg the shed, I had mentioned this some 10 days back on this thread (http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=445). Note that I have being seeing a minor shed only while in the shower. Since last morning I am seeing some reduced shedding. Hopefully, it will keep on reducing and stop in the coming weeks. Let's keep each other updated. 

Reg question to keratene guys on the shed, as expected I did not get a clear answer. They just said it's possible for some guys to get a shed similar to other DHT reducing products. Frankly speaking, I was not expecting any definite response as I think none of the doctors or representatives out there will tell you for sure if the shed is a positive shed when they recommend fin, minox, keratene etc etc. No body wants to stick there neck out...





> guys,
> 
> let me give you a short update: I started using the topicals (shampoo + ultra complex) at the end of january. as you can see from my previous posts I was pretty pleased with the products, as my hairloss seemed to lessen, and my hair simply felt great (most of the time). no sides at all.
> 
> about a month ago, I started taking the capsules (1/day) in addition to the topicals, and from week 2 onwards, I noticed that my hair loss increased again; particularly, I also noticed a loss of shorter hair from my temple region. a week ago, I increased the dose to 2 capsules every other day (i.e., 2 on monday, 1 on tuesday, 2 on wednesday, etc), and by the looks of it, this makes me shed even more. also, I now have very very minor discomfort in my groin area (it isn't really painful, and compared to what I experienced when I tried fin, it's nothing, but I just feel "something"). libido has definitely not been affected by the capsules, no erectile problems, not at all, maybe even the contrary.
> 
> I'm now wondering: can the increased shedding be a sign that the capsules are actually working, similar to the well-known "fin-shed"? looking at the hairs that I am loosing, they are not minaturized or anything, mostly just normal hair of medium thickness. has anyone asked the keratene guys whether or not a shed like this can be expected when taking the capsules?

----------


## FearTheLoss

shedding those miniaturized hairs is a good sign, they will grow back stronger.

----------


## shredder

@Feartheloss, but that is the problem, the hairs that I see are NOT minaturized. if they were, I would not be really concerned...but seeing HEALTHY looking hair falling out, well...

@cob and ajays well I just decided to give it another month...

----------


## BaldinLikeBaldwin

so no one had any results yet?

funny because it's supposed to lower DHT more than Fin and as some would know it's not unusual to see results (albeit not visible) in a matter of weeks on Fin

----------


## Cob984

I feel like im starting to lose an insane amt of ground,
I just cut my hair today and wow, i can see patches now, im shocked,
I feel like the last 3-4 weeks my hair is in freefall again,

How are the rest of you guys doing

----------


## Jairus

Cob I have been on it for about 16 days and I have seen an improvement in hair texture and fullness. HOWEVER I started biotin at the same time so it may be down to that. Will keep an eye on it.

Do u reckon 1 pill a day is enough? I have been receding for 11 years and Im only NW2.5 so its slow. I didn't get my DHT levels tested prior to commencement but I will prob leave a gap and start again to ascertain the &#37; of reduction.

Keep in mind the patches may be induced shedding as a result of DHT reduction.

----------


## Cob984

Hey longwayhome, have you got your RU Yet, how are you reacting to it?

----------


## burtandernie

Im more and more thinking snake oil with this even if maybe it works in small amount of cases. Its certainly not any kind of big breakthrough and the evidence it works is still unconvincing at best.

----------


## Jairus

> Cob I have been on it for about 16 days and I have seen an improvement in hair texture and fullness. HOWEVER I started biotin at the same time so it may be down to that. Will keep an eye on it.
> 
> Do u reckon 1 pill a day is enough? I have been receding for 11 years and Im only NW2.5 so its slow. I didn't get my DHT levels tested prior to commencement but I will prob leave a gap and start again to ascertain the % of reduction.
> 
> Keep in mind the patches may be induced shedding as a result of DHT reduction.


 Em.....anyone?

The question is of course solely based on if this stuff works at all

----------


## Cob984

Hariri, Ajays, longway home...guys wanna chip in?

im personally still thinning quite aggressively
now on 1capsule everyday and also have some sides
this is the worst deal, putting up with sides and hair is getting screwed too

----------


## LongWayHome

Well Cob, as I've already said, I'm not on the capsules anymore due to some sides... 

Now I'm on the topicals only, minox 15%, and waiting for RU premixed from MPB, but considering Kane.
MPB screwed with the shipping after I paid for express one.
They refunded my shipping money and shipped that again, and it's been 9 days with nothing that happens...They said that if I won't get it they'll give me a full refund, but I don't want the refund I want the RU dammit.........

----------


## clandestine

> Hariri, Ajays, longway home...guys wanna chip in?
> 
> im personally still thinning quite aggressively
> now on 1capsule everyday and also have some sides
> this is the worst deal, putting up with sides and hair is getting screwed too


 Maybe time to wean off.. Sides often aren't worth it. What sides are you currently experiencing? Sexual?

----------


## Jairus

Cob are u gonna move up to 2 pills a day or will the sides be too much?

I may give it 6 months on 1 and see if there is stabilization.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

These pills seem to cost some money. Do they even thicken existing hair at least? Does any one have before and after pics using these pills alone, or this just another TRX2 type of hair loss treatment?

----------


## HARIRI

Guys, I'm aware that we are many taking one capsule of Keratene a day including myself but can I know how many of you are taking two capsules a day or tried lately to upgrade their intake into two capsules a day? Please identify yourselves and share with us your experience!  :Smile:

----------


## ajays

Cob,Hariri

I had raised the intake to 2x/day some 2 weeks back. Been on the capsules for about 7 weeks overall now. I have been having a positive experience with this so far. No major sides (apart from initial fatigue) and hair is definitely getting thicker, in fact I received comments from couple of office friends that they definitely notice a difference, especially on the crown. I just hope this continues and hair gets more thicker...fingers crossed.

One more thing, I am still experiencing a shed but less than last week or so. Mostly weaker hairs shedding while in the shower. Good thing is that I don't see increasing thinning or bald spots,
so I am assuming this shed is a good thing.

Some people on this forum mentioned that this product could be snake oil. Snake oil or not, it seems to be working for me so far...




> Guys, I'm aware that we are many taking one capsule of Keratene a day including myself but can I know how many of you are taking two capsules a day or tried lately to upgrade their intake into two capsules a day? Please identify yourselves and share with us your experience!

----------


## Cob984

Not sexual sides per se, the ones that irritate me the most are the mental ones, fatigue is there + plus mild brain fog, also some penile shrinkage like longway but thats there even on saw palmetto
I dont think i can handle 2/day theres no way,

If i drop this then what? lose my hair? RU? really confused

----------


## clandestine

> I dont think i can handle 2/day theres no way,
> 
> If i drop this then what? lose my hair? RU? really confused


 Low dose RU is what I'm currently on..

I realize how frustrating this all is. Being supremely sensitive to aa medications is a terrible thing  :Frown:  Not many realize.

I'm going to try CB soon too.

----------


## HARIRI

ajays, Did you experience new minor sides besides the fatigue when you upgraded your intake to twice a day that were not there? Can you specify them please?

----------


## Cob984

Is the low dose RU working clandestine?

And longway i thought you decide to go back on the capsules inspite of the sides? Yea i have heard not so good things about mpbtreatments too but i find the effort ridiculous and costly from kane, i feel like if i am sure i will use RU i might use kane but its too soon now,

----------


## thechamp

Cob how's the weight gain going??

----------


## ajays

Hariri,

I did not feel any adverse impact after upgrading to twice a day. Also, the fatigue that I mentioned was during the initial days when I first started Keratene. I dont feel any fatigue now.





> ajays, Did you experience new minor sides besides the fatigue when you upgraded your intake to twice a day that were not there? Can you specify them please?

----------


## JulioGP

Hello everybody. I am following this topic for some time and starting to get in the mood to test the product. It is my first post here.

Is there anyone here who is doing the drug for more than two months? My fear is that I used to Finasteride for 1 year, but the effects only started after about 4 months. I see people here reporting that they are not having any side effects, but I think too early to have some certainty.

I also see that the recommended dose is 2 capsules per day, but many are only using 1. Do not use this form would cause a large change in plasma levels and to make optimal level does not remain favorable for the drug to act correctly?

I watched that one forum member had not almost reduced DHT. I searched the information about the test DOUBLE-BLIND performed and found nothing, only a PDF that does not cite Double-Blind Tests. How do we know this can not be placebo effect? I thought poor tests conducted with this drug, unconvincing. Do not you think?

----------


## Jasari

I've just hit two weeks on 2 per day Keratene capsules; So far no sexual side effects but I thought I'd post due to the fact that I've encountered a considerable level of fatigue - I've started to find it very difficult to wake up and I am falling asleep at around 9pm each night. Hopefully my body gets used to the lower dht levels.

----------


## StayThick

This product reeks of snake oil..just my honest opinion

I'll start RU before trying this treatment.

----------


## clandestine

Keratene is legitimate, various doctors recommend it in place of Propecia. It's not snake oil bro, your assumptions are unfounded.

----------


## StayThick

> Keratene is legitimate, various doctors recommend it in place of Propecia. It's not snake oil bro, your assumptions are unfounded.


 It's still early to tell, as the product is relatively new, but weren't there a few members on here who conducted blood tests while using the treatment? Weren't those blood tests revealing that DHT levels were reduced only minimally?

Guess only time will tell, like most products.  Can't blame others for giving it a shot. I'll follow this thread as it progresses.

As for doctors recommending it, that's based on what? What you heard? I doubt any doctor would recommend a non FDA approved product for treatment of hairloss, let alone an experimental product such as this.

That comment makes you sound like a goon.

----------


## Conpecia

> It's still early to tell, as the product is relatively new, but weren't there a few members on here who conducted blood tests while using the treatment? Weren't those blood tests revealing that DHT levels were reduced only minimally?
> 
> Guess only time will tell, like most products.  Can't blame others for giving it a shot. I'll follow this thread as it progresses.
> 
> As for doctors recommending it, that's based on what? What you heard? I doubt any doctor would recommend a non FDA approved product for treatment of hairloss, let alone an experimental product such as this.
> 
> That comment makes you sound like a goon.


 Dude read this thread in its entirety before you start slamming everybody.

----------


## StayThick

Not slamming people Conpecia, I read enough about this product on this thread to stop reading midway. I wasn't sold.

Independent doctors may endorse this, but playing Devil's advocate, I'd assume they have vested interest in doing so. Not to sound like Tracy, but dude, I can't see how this can maintain hair if DHT levels aren't reduced significantly. This is where sides come to play, but why Propecia is so effective in some.

Like you, I can't take Propecia due to sides. I would love for this to work, but I just don't see it bro. Hopefully it does for you, but from what I gather you are experiencing some sides correct?

----------


## JulioGP

StayThick, I read this results here.

"My personal results were like this: before KAR - DHT 1734pg/ml, after 8 days it dropped to 762, then after 2 weeks it dropped to 574 and during 8 months it stayed at around 560 - 580, which is very good."


I considered it was a great reduction of DHT. You see that?

----------


## StayThick

> StayThick, I read this results here.
> 
> "My personal results were like this: before KAR - DHT 1734pg/ml, after 8 days it dropped to 762, then after 2 weeks it dropped to 574 and during 8 months it stayed at around 560 - 580, which is very good."
> 
> 
> I considered it was a great reduction of DHT. You see that?


 Not to say what you stated and read is not fact, but I need more evidence from others. I have been duped before with treatments, so forgive me being skeptical.

To answer your question direct, yes that does seem like an ample drop in DHT levels.

----------


## Conpecia

> Not slamming people Conpecia, I read enough about this product on this thread to stop reading midway. I wasn't sold.
> 
> Independent doctors may endorse this, but playing Devil's advocate, I'd assume they have vested interest in doing so. Not to sound like Tracy, but dude, I can't see how this can maintain hair if DHT levels aren't reduced significantly. This is where sides come to play, but why Propecia is so effective in some.
> 
> Like you, I can't take Propecia due to sides. I would love for this to work, but I just don't see it bro. Hopefully it does for you, but from what I gather you are experiencing some sides correct?


 I have gyno from fin and I'm waiting until its completely gone before taking any more DHT inhibitors just to be safe. I think this stuff seems more legit than any other experimental aa except RU.

----------


## JulioGP

Guys,

I asked some questions about this product directly to the company. look:

Me:
Good day.

I am part of a forum in Brazil about baldness with over 7,000 members and were very happy with this product Kératente. However, while there were several questions about the operation. I would like if possible you be referring these questions to you and passing this information to the members of the forum.

The first question is: In clinical trials showed that there was a large reduction in DHT levels from subjects given Kératene, testosterone but did not rise. How this is possible? It is practically impossible to have a reduction in DHT without an increase in testosterone levels.

This is a question that is key to creating a certain distrust that this product can actually download the DHT without changing testosterone.

Thank you.


Company response:
Hello Julio,
many thanks for your message, we appreciate your interest in Kératene.
To reply to your question I have to remind you the following aspects:

DHT is the results of a chemical reaction between 2 components: the enzyme 5ard and testosterone (T).
Whenever one molecule of 5ard is in the proximity of T, 2 atoms of hydrogen are transmitted to T.
This reaction is called chemical reduction.
1 * 5ard + 1 * T = 1 DHT (DHT means: di = 2 - hydro = hydrogen  - testosterone T)

As such, DHT is a byproduct, a result, not a source.
The sources is 5ard and T. DHT is an effect, a result.
If you remove the result, you dont necessarily need to remove the cause.

In theory, what you said (see below # 1 & # 2), is partially true.
However, in practice, in order to reduce DHT, you can work on 3 ways:

1  reduce the mount of 5ard available in the body by inhibiting its secretion
or
2  reduce the T in the body by inhibiting its secretion
or
3 -  prevent the combination between 5ard and T already available in the body

Our product uses method 3.
If you prevent the reaction between the sources (5ard and T), you prevent the formation of DHT, and as such you reduce the DHT level.
However, this does not automatically mean that you reduce T or 5ard.
In fact, you simply prevent a chemical reaction from happening, without affecting the sources.
In other words, the product does not affect the sources, because its not needed. 
It only prevents a chemical reaction between the sources.
The word reduce is not an accurate term because what actually happens is a limitation of the total DHT produced, rather than a reduction of the DHT already produced.

That is why our product is called a DHT depressor and not a DHT reducer.
You reduce something which is already made/created. You depress something which is not yet produced/created.
Its a very fine difference and I hope you understand it.


Kind regards,
Chris Anderson
KERATENE Product Specialist
www.keratene.com

----------


## ajays

It's sounds strange to me that people would prefer to ignore the initial clinical trial data and doctor/hair clinic endorsement for Keratene (which btw had one of it's companies bought by the cosmetic giant L'Oreal in the recent past) and would like to try out RU for which I have found no credible data on the net regarding efficacy or safety. But that's just me...





> This product reeks of snake oil..just my honest opinion
> 
> I'll start RU before trying this treatment.

----------


## ajays

This particular case has been discussed on this thread in previous posts. You cant expect a big drop in DHT for people who already have low DHT.




> Not slamming people Conpecia, I read enough about this product on this thread to stop reading midway. I wasn't sold.
> 
> Independent doctors may endorse this, but playing Devil's advocate, I'd assume they have vested interest in doing so. Not to sound like Tracy, but dude, I can't see how this can maintain hair *if DHT levels aren't reduced significantly.* This is where sides come to play, but why Propecia is so effective in some.
> 
> Like you, I can't take Propecia due to sides. I would love for this to work, but I just don't see it bro. Hopefully it does for you, but from what I gather you are experiencing some sides correct?

----------


## Jasari

The past few days the fatigue has subsided and am actually feeling pretty good - I may have jumped the gun a bit by blaming the keratene for my fatigue levels.

Funnily enough my biggest worry starting out was the warning that it can lower athletic performance - So far things are good, my lifts in the gym have actually increased.

In terms of hair loss, my hair fall has stopped. Not sure if this is a good thing considering shed's are associated with future regrowth, but a positive I guess is that my hair definitely feels heavier atm.

----------


## HARIRI

I agree with you Jasari. I felt the fatigue thing 2 weeks ago.  I really do not know why its happening? Any idea or scientific explaination?

However I eliminated it when I started taking some Korean Ginseng extract (Panax Ginseng). Im so back to normal :-)

----------


## ajays

They say it takes some time for the body to recover if DHT levels drop, as DHT is associated with keeping the energy levels up in the body. But too much DHT can harm the hair follicles and too little DHT can harm bodily functions. I assume people must be seeing similar fatigue initially while on Fin. Hope Keratene maintains DHT in the safe range as they claim in their study.





> I agree with you Jasari. I felt the fatigue thing 2 weeks ago.  I really do not know why its happening? Any idea or scientific explaination?
> 
> However I eliminated it when I started taking some Korean Ginseng extract (Panax Ginseng). Im so back to normal :-)

----------


## BaldinLikeBaldwin

> They say it takes some time for the body to recover if DHT levels drop, *as DHT is associated with keeping the energy levels up in the body*. But too much DHT can harm the hair follicles and too little DHT can harm bodily functions. I assume people must be seeing similar fatigue initially while on Fin. Hope Keratene maintains DHT in the safe range as they claim in their study.


 source....

----------


## ajays

google....




> source....

----------


## Conpecia

i took one dose of this about two weeks ago before bed and i was rocked by fatigue the next day. really dazed and out of it. haven't taken it since, but as i said earlier i'm waiting for propecia gyno to clear before starting another dht blocker.

----------


## GiveMeStrength

I ordered the shampoo and have been using it for a week now (3 times). I have noticed a massive shed of vellus hair, I want to stop using it because I'm scared my scalp will start showing more. Would the vellus hair grow back? I asked the rep at keratene if people get a shed from the shampoo and he said not really but everyone is different.

Has anyone used the shampoo and got a shed? And if so, how long does it last, do the hair grow back?

----------


## Jasari

> I agree with you Jasari. I felt the fatigue thing 2 weeks ago.  I really do not know why its happening? Any idea or scientific explaination?
> 
> However I eliminated it when I started taking some Korean Ginseng extract (Panax Ginseng). Im so back to normal :-)


 I think DHT is fairly important for the physical performance levels of men - My fatigue levels have improved now. I might not be the best case to go off though for a few reasons; I haven't taken fin before, but I think I may be one of those people who don't suffer the fin side effects. In terms of Keratene apart from a couple of days of fatigue I've really had zero change in my body.

----------


## HARIRI

I have minor fatigue with taking one capsule a day. Im just wondering what will happen if I will upgrade it to the recommended dose (twice a day). Anyone noticed increased Fatigue when increasing the intake from once to twice a day???

----------


## ajays

Nope. The fatigue will likely go away after some days. If you are concerned about fatigue, I will suggest you wait for some more days before going for twice a day.




> I have minor fatigue with taking one capsule a day. Im just wondering what will happen if I will upgrade it to the recommended dose (twice a day). Anyone noticed increased Fatigue when increasing the intake from once to twice a day???

----------


## Jairus

Been on this for nearly 3 weeks and I have seen a noticeable thinning of my temple points in the last few days - the hairs here were/are miniaturized already so Im hoping its a DHT lowering induced shed? 

Anyone have something similar happen? Will these grow back? Im off for a HT next week and its all hairline work so these hairs growing back would be preferable

----------


## Cob984

i have also lot a lot of hair on my left temple, its very disturbing, i dont think this is a shed though and im stressed

----------


## JulioGP

Friends who are testing the Kératene and know a little of these reactions. 

In your blood tests was no change in testosterone levels? In tests published by the company, the testosterone levels did not change even with reduction of DHT. Where did the testosterone?

In other words, if no testosterone is discarded and LESS DHT was produced, how it will not have more testosterone in the blood?! Where did that would transoformar Testosterone to DHT?!

Weird and am trying to find a technical explanation for this. Does anyone know the answer?

----------


## unwheel

I've been using Keratene capsules 1 a day for about 7 weeks and over the last week I've developed some nipple pain - sort of tender & sore. Could this be the beginning of Gyno? I've also been using RU for about 11 weeks so which could be to blame because Keratene is supposed to be side effect free? I've had no other sides.

Thinking of reducing the dose...maybe 1 capsule every 2 days and only 1ml of 5% Ru instead of 1.5ml per day. Any thoughts?

----------


## Californication

New member here, been on this for almost a month since Propecia gave my slight gyno around the 4 month period.

Hard to say whether it's working or not, the doctor ****ed up my initial blood tests so I have no reference value for "before". Gonna stick with it another month and see.

----------


## Conpecia

> New member here, been on this for almost a month since Propecia gave my slight gyno around the 4 month period.
> 
> Hard to say whether it's working or not, the doctor ****ed up my initial blood tests so I have no reference value for "before". Gonna stick with it another month and see.


 Has it affected your gyno at all?

----------


## Californication

> Has it affected your gyno at all?


 I got off Propecia at around the end of Feb/early March, I would say my gyno went down slightly in the incoming weeks (it was never a huge deal to begin with--puffy nipples and some growth, but I could tell that if I didn't get off of Propecia, it could definitely become a full blown case).

Since being on it, I still have puffy nipples (the test for this being that my upper body looks considerably more sculpted after a cold shower) and slight fat around the chest area, but I wouldn't say that it's increased.

Again though, I think the blood tests are crucial here which is why I'm pissed that I didn't get them done the right way the first time. I've read the official study and all the participants had high initial DHT values, so if you have that, I think Keratene should work well for you, I do believe it's pretty safe based off my limited experience so far.

----------


## Californication

> Friends who are testing the Kératene and know a little of these reactions. 
> 
> In your blood tests was no change in testosterone levels? In tests published by the company, the testosterone levels did not change even with reduction of DHT. Where did the testosterone?
> 
> In other words, if no testosterone is discarded and LESS DHT was produced, how it will not have more testosterone in the blood?! Where did that would transoformar Testosterone to DHT?!
> 
> Weird and am trying to find a technical explanation for this. Does anyone know the answer?


 The guy you emailed doesn't know the answer. I emailed him about your enquiry:

"I was wondering how the product Keratene Alphaactive Retard works without affecting T levels? I have read a response from a similar inquiry, posted here:" If you prevent the reaction between the sources (5ard and T), you prevent the formation of DHT, and as such you reduce the DHT level.
However, this does not automatically mean that you reduce T or 5ard.
In fact, you simply prevent a chemical reaction from happening, without affecting the sources.
In other words, the product does not affect the sources, because its not needed. 
It only prevents a chemical reaction between the sources. "

However, I do not understand why limiting a chemical reaction would not still lead to increased T levels? Regardless of whether you are inhibiting the enzyme 5ard or not allowing  a reaction to occur, the net result would be increased T, would  it not in comparison with  people in whom the DHT  is produced? It'd be great if you could shed some light on this."

*and his response was:*


"in terms of liner logic, your statement seems to be correct.
However, the production of T is regulated by different mechanisms.
The chemical reaction you describe has zero impact on the actual levels of T.
For our tests, the level of T remained clinically unchanged, by this meaning the differences between it before and after levels comply with the limits which are considered biologically normal fluctuations, between tests.
You should contact a university professor of endocrinology or a endocrinological biologist that can offer you a more literal and adequate explanation."

In other words, the trials showed no change, so he is assuming there is no change in T levels: this could be (and in fact WAS) true given the smaller reduction in DHT, but the explanation is not known by him. Still, not really bad news given the trial, but you should obviously be wary of side effects.

----------


## Conpecia

> I got off Propecia at around the end of Feb/early March, I would say my gyno went down slightly in the incoming weeks (it was never a huge deal to begin with--puffy nipples and some growth, but I could tell that if I didn't get off of Propecia, it could definitely become a full blown case).
> 
> Since being on it, I still have puffy nipples (the test for this being that my upper body looks considerably more sculpted after a cold shower) and slight fat around the chest area, but I wouldn't say that it's increased.
> 
> Again though, I think the blood tests are crucial here which is why I'm pissed that I didn't get them done the right way the first time. I've read the official study and all the participants had high initial DHT values, so if you have that, I think Keratene should work well for you, I do believe it's pretty safe based off my limited experience so far.


 Well, unfortunately my gyno from propecia hasn't gone anywhere for a pretty long while, I'm pushing four months since my last propecia dose. Looks like I'll have to man up and do the letro regimen. I'm just gonna stick to minox until the gyno is killed off. I'm confident that something major is on the way with BNP.

----------


## JulioGP

> The guy you emailed doesn't know the answer. I emailed him about your enquiry:
> 
> "I was wondering how the product Keratene Alphaactive Retard works without affecting T levels? I have read a response from a similar inquiry, posted here:" If you prevent the reaction between the sources (5ard and T), you prevent the formation of DHT, and as such you reduce the DHT level.
> However, this does not automatically mean that you reduce T or 5ard.
> In fact, you simply prevent a chemical reaction from happening, without affecting the sources.
> In other words, the product does not affect the sources, because its not needed. 
> It only prevents a chemical reaction between the sources. "
> 
> However, I do not understand why limiting a chemical reaction would not still lead to increased T levels? Regardless of whether you are inhibiting the enzyme 5ard or not allowing  a reaction to occur, the net result would be increased T, would  it not in comparison with  people in whom the DHT  is produced? It'd be great if you could shed some light on this."
> ...


 if in fact there was no variation in testosterone levels, would be perfect.

----------


## DifferentLine

Any updates from people using this?

----------


## HARIRI

> Any updates from people using this?


 I didnt have any sides for almost 2 months so I decided to take the plunge and upgrade my intake to the recommended one which two capsules a day. Lets hope that it will be as effective as Propecia or even half. Its better than nothing to me  :Big Grin:

----------


## vinnytr

> I didnt have any sides for almost 2 months so I decided to take the plunge and upgrade my intake to the recommended one which two capsules a day. Lets hope that it will be as effective as Propecia or even half. Its better than nothing to me


 Do you see any benefits from this ? Are you using other stuff ? 

Still interested but very sceptical about this   :Confused:

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

hey guys how are you doing on kerratene? i am thinking to start it too.

can we somewhere pics before after? 


this thing about no sex sides its true and sure?

i am planing to visit endocrin Dr and have blood tests before i start and everywhile to monitor dht, 

what you think?

----------


## HARIRI

> Do you see any benefits from this ? Are you using other stuff ? 
> 
> Still interested but very sceptical about this


 Yes I noticed less hair on my fingers while shampooing every morning. I'm only using Minoxidil once a day with it and nothing more. I replaced my Saw Palemtto 500mg intake with Keratene Alphactive Retard.

----------


## Jairus

Have there been any clinical trials performed for aplhactive retard?

----------


## HARIRI

> Have there been any clinical trials performed for aplhactive retard?


 This is so far the best clinical trial I have seen for Keratene Alphactive Retard made by the mother company Hairclinics  :Cool: 

http://www.prohairclinic.com/sites/d..._protected.pdf

Also this small crinical trial made by University of Gent.

http://www.prohairclinic.com/en/news...ve-finasteride

----------


## ryan555

Well I took the bait and ordered some of this stuff.  The studies are encouraging but something seems a little "off" about what I have read online.  First off, there are multiple people posting positive reviews about the product on different forums online and most of them have only posted on that single topic.  The one accomplished poster who had his DHT tested said it stayed the same.  They also all have a very similar tone - like they're trying too hard to be a "bra" to relate to the other posters.  Whatever, bottom line is, I am getting my dht tested before and then a couple of weeks after.  If its considerably lower, I'll stay on it, otherwise I'll dump it.  I'll post my results.

----------


## vinnytr

> Well I took the bait and ordered some of this stuff.  The studies are encouraging but something seems a little "off" about what I have read online.  First off, there are multiple people posting positive reviews about the product on different forums online and most of them have only posted on that single topic.  The one accomplished poster who had his DHT tested said it stayed the same.  They also all have a very similar tone - like they're trying too hard to be a "bra" to relate to the other posters.  Whatever, bottom line is, I am getting my dht tested before and then a couple of weeks after.  If its considerably lower, I'll stay on it, otherwise I'll dump it.  I'll post my results.


 sadly this happens ^^ 

Are you based in the uk ? Any ideas where you will get the DHT test done ?

----------


## shredder

You are on the right track - personally I totally regret that I didn't have my DHT level tested before I started taking the capsules. The reason was that at the time I had used the topicals for a few weeks and was quite happy with them, so I kind of "trusted" the company. I can't really say if - after 2.5 months of taking the capsules - my hairloss has decreased; altogether, I don't really think so. I am still hoping that the increased hairloss that I have seen over the last 3 weeks is a treatment-induced shed, but maybe it's just seasonal, considering that my cats are presently shedding as well  :Wink:  

Anyway, I have decided to stay on the capsules until the 6 month mark. If I don't notice any changes up to that time point, I will stop taking the capsules and just continue with the topicals, and hope that allergan releases a bimatoprost-based product in the near future. I will definitely not go back to taking fin, which gave me three months of hell. And I can't use minox because of the cats.




> Well I took the bait and ordered some of this stuff.  The studies are encouraging but something seems a little "off" about what I have read online.  First off, there are multiple people posting positive reviews about the product on different forums online and most of them have only posted on that single topic.  The one accomplished poster who had his DHT tested said it stayed the same.  They also all have a very similar tone - like they're trying too hard to be a "bra" to relate to the other posters.  Whatever, bottom line is, I am getting my dht tested before and then a couple of weeks after.  If its considerably lower, I'll stay on it, otherwise I'll dump it.  I'll post my results.

----------


## UK_

> You are on the right track - personally I totally regret that I didn't have my DHT level tested before I started taking the capsules. The reason was that at the time I had used the topicals for a few weeks and was quite happy with them, so I kind of "trusted" the company. I can't really say if - after 2.5 months of taking the capsules - my hairloss has decreased; altogether, I don't really think so. I am still hoping that the increased hairloss that I have seen over the last 3 weeks is a treatment-induced shed, but maybe it's just seasonal, considering that my cats are presently shedding as well  
> 
> Anyway, I have decided to stay on the capsules until the 6 month mark. If I don't notice any changes up to that time point, I will stop taking the capsules and just continue with the topicals, and *hope that allergan releases a bimatoprost-based product in the near future*. I will definitely not go back to taking fin, which gave me three months of hell. And I can't use minox because of the cats.


 Yes because Bimatoprost has had amazing clinical data where 100% of NW7 were turned to NW1 in 2 hours:

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?play=1&video=3000165616

(forward to 13:00).

----------


## shredder

why the sarcasm?




> Yes because Bimatoprost has had amazing clinical data where 100% of NW7 were turned to NW1 in 2 hours:
> 
> http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?play=1&video=3000165616
> 
> (forward to 13:00).

----------


## FearTheLoss

I honestly think KaR is making my hairline worse. I have noticed an increase in testosterone since beginning taking it and I have that "itch" in my temples...another friend of mine feels the same way...


anyone else experience this?

----------


## Cob984

> I honestly think KaR is making my hairline worse. I have noticed an increase in testosterone since beginning taking it and I have that "itch" in my temples...another friend of mine feels the same way...
> 
> 
> anyone else experience this?


 How long has it been? I am experiencing the same things,
To top it off im experiencing bad body sides now, including real loss of muscle definition and a lot of abdominal weight gain
+ my hair doesnt seem to be improving, i might have to drop this soon

----------


## FearTheLoss

Been on it for a month and a half and just started noticing it recently, I'm also more tired. 

My friend has been on RU for a year with success of regrowth and maintenance and then started KaR and started losing hair in the temples...coincidence? maybe, but I don't think so

----------


## Cob984

im pretty much tired all day as well, i feel like i want a nap all the time,
Its weird because these are all the dht reduction sides without the hair benefitting ? WTF

I have also just ordered some RU, when it does arrive i will go off KAR and try RU, if i can tolerate RU i will drop KAR

----------


## FearTheLoss

if you are worried about tolerating it, use the KB vehicle. This vehicle was designed to be sides free...

----------


## clandestine

> if you are worried about tolerating it, use the KB vehicle. This vehicle was designed to be sides free...


 While it is designed to be sides free, it would be a major misconception to think it so in all cases. I've experienced sides, even while using KB vehicle.

----------


## Conpecia

> While it is designed to be sides free, it would be a major misconception to think it so in all cases. I've experienced sides, even while using KB vehicle.


 Is it possible that you are like me in that the gyno is flaring up even without using any treatments? I swear i get these flareups but I'm only on minox. So weird. Kind of concerned.

----------


## Cob984

Think im quitting the pills, they just are not suiting me,
My hair is not improving, my temples are worsening, im popping all sorts of pills like DIM and resveratrol to combat the weight gain to no avail , might even be counterproductive to my hair,
I am taking a break, going back to using the topicals every other day,
I am going back to saw palmetto internally and will also be adding neogenic and regenpure in a week,
Also waiting for my 2&#37; RU

----------


## Conpecia

Cobb let us know if RU gives you gyno. I just took a Keratene pill and am going to try to take it for month with minox and see how the sides are. But RU seems like a much more effective treatment, so long as it doesn't give me bitch tits.

----------


## FearTheLoss

I quit taking them and the itching in my temples has decreased after the past few days..

----------


## Tacola

I have been on it for a while (two tablets a day) and I did not see any side effects for a long while, but now, about two weeks ago I started to feel a strange "tingling" in my fingers aswell as a strange feeling in my arm. I dont know if this is related to Kerantene since I also at the same time got a really bad food poisoning when I was climbing in the altitude above 6000 meters. I decided to stop for a while to see if it reversed.

Though, my hair seems thicker, but I cant say for sure if it is related to Kerantene or that I just have a better feeling in me in general. I have been through a very stressfull time. Also I have been taking some Bio MSM with silica, but just for about half a week or so.

Either way, I thought I just would report back to you guys. I did not suffer from fatigue or anything like that. But I did not get any sides from Finasteride either.

----------


## UK_

Guys we need before/after blood tests for DHT levels - does anyone have any actual scientific data to show that this lowered their serum DHT levels?

----------


## UK_

[repeat post]

----------


## thechamp

Cob I'm the same with weight gain on fin two weeks on it even once a week I get lots of fat on my tummy uncomfortable I wish fin didn't give me such good results, I'm thinking of talking fin every fourteen days talking it for 3 days then talking it in fourteen days again will keep the hair I have, weight gain on this drug nothing stops it.

----------


## Conpecia

Pretty sure this is causing my nips to be sore. Really need to get my estrogen levels checked.

----------


## thechamp

How to reduce Propecia/Finasteride side effects
I created a reply in another topic that I felt might be helpful to others using propecia.
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=68428&p=640985#p640985

Many of the side effects are caused by lowered testosterone levels, increased estrogen levels, or both. I address how you can solve these 2 issues in my reply to this topic.

Copy of my reply:

 Originally Posted by ripple-effect
You would have to use an aromatase(increases estrogen) inhibitor along with a SHBG(lowers free T) inhibitor. 

Free Testosterone wants to become one of these 3 things when it is floating around in your body:
1.) DHT
2.) estradiol
3.) bind to SHBG(Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)

Since Propecia inhibits the production of DHT, the Free T will mainly only convert to estradiol(type of estrogen) or bind to SHBG. To prevent conversion of Free T into estradiol you would need to use an aromatase inhibitor. An effective natural aromatase inhibitor I would recommend is Grape Seed Extract. This should also help prevent some of the Propecia side effects such as gyno which is caused by increased estrogen levels. A potent brand of GSE I would recommend and use myself is Nature's Plus:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00014 ... B00014G47S

or Jarrow's formula is another potent brand I would highly recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013O ... B0013OXA2M

You also need to prevent Free T from binding to the SHBG. To accomplish this I would recommend increasing your protein intake and using Fish oil supplements. This should help prevent sexual dysfunction by increasing testosterone levels.

This should result in a greater increase of Free T in your system which has many great health benefits.
Nizoral 2%

----------


## thechamp

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/store/triazole.html coupleing this with propecia?

----------


## Conpecia

> How to reduce Propecia/Finasteride side effects
> I created a reply in another topic that I felt might be helpful to others using propecia.
> viewtopic.php?f=61&t=68428&p=640985#p640985
> 
> Many of the side effects are caused by lowered testosterone levels, increased estrogen levels, or both. I address how you can solve these 2 issues in my reply to this topic.
> 
> Copy of my reply:
> 
>  Originally Posted by ripple-effect
> ...


 Thanks champ i'm gonna order some grape seed extract and see if it helps with the estrogen levels.

----------


## thechamp

Since I have the research on hand (having put it into my latest product, CyoGenX), here's some cool stuff on GrapeSeedExtract (Procyanidin), from various human, in situ, in vitro, and in vivo studies:

	Inhibits the Aromatase Enzyme (prevents testosterone from converting to estrogen at the genetic level, preventing both transcription and expression of Aromatase) [1-4]

	Acts similarly to Letrozole (a prescription Aromatase Inhibitor), and can destroy breast tumor tissue (gynecomastia) [1]

	Has anabolic properties (Inhibits the Glucocorticoid Receptor, thus allowing more muscle to be built)[4]

	Has Anti-Hypertensive properties [5]

	Improves Cognitive Function [5]

	Lowers LDL Cholesterol [6]

	Is a strong Anti-Oxidant (stronger than vitamin C or E) [6]

.	Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor and a suppressor of aromatase expression. Cancer Res. 2006 Jun 1;66(11):5960-7.

2.	Suppression of Estrogen biosynthesis by procyanidin dimmers in red wine and grape seeds. Cancer Res. 2003 Dec 1;63(23):8516-22.

3.	Suppression of aromatase (estrogen synthetase) by red wine phytochemicals. Breast Cancer Res. Treat., 67: 133-146, 2001

4.	Modulation of aromatase gene expression by grape seed extract. Ikuko Kijima, et al. City of Hope, Durante, CA.

5.	Antihypertensive and cognitive effects of grape polyphenols in estrogen-depleted, female, spontaneously hypertensive rats. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2005 Sep;289(3):R771-5.

6.	Concentrated red grape juice exerts antioxidant, hypolipidemic, and antiinflammatory effects in both hemodialysis patients and healthy subjects. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jul;84(1):252-62.Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jul;84(1):252-62.

----------


## JulioGP

> How to reduce Propecia/Finasteride side effects
> I created a reply in another topic that I felt might be helpful to others using propecia.
> viewtopic.php?f=61&t=68428&p=640985#p640985
> 
> Many of the side effects are caused by lowered testosterone levels, increased estrogen levels, or both. I address how you can solve these 2 issues in my reply to this topic.
> 
> Copy of my reply:
> 
>  Originally Posted by ripple-effect
> ...


 What I do know is that in fact what finasteride does is INCREASE testosterone levels and this increase is that does the conversion, the opposite of what the text is saying, well, the use of Finasteride does not reduce the levels of Testosterone because the block of 5AR "will be left" more testosterone in the blood stream so that there is an increase in their levels, which can become cause aromatization. 

This theory that testosterone decreases is wrong.

----------


## Ted

> What I do know is that in fact what finasteride does is INCREASE testosterone levels and this increase is that does the conversion, the opposite of what the text is saying, well, the use of Finasteride does not reduce the levels of Testosterone because the block of 5AR "will be left" more testosterone in the blood stream so that there is an increase in their levels, which can become cause aromatization. 
> 
> This theory that testosterone decreases is wrong.


 Some say fin decreases free testosterone: 
http://www.*****************/interact...e-testosterone!

----------


## JulioGP

> Some say fin decreases free testosterone: 
> http://www.*****************/interact...e-testosterone!


 This reasoning is wrong. If you block conversion to DHT, testosterone would automatically be converted will remain in the bloodstream, making the level rise. has no way to be different, because this testosterone is not converted or used.

----------


## Ted

> This reasoning is wrong. If you block conversion to DHT, testosterone would automatically be converted will remain in the bloodstream, making the level rise. has no way to be different, because this testosterone is not converted or used.


 Just because you cant see the logic behind this doesn't mean that it is wrong. As you can see, Enden (one of the most active finasteride debaters I have seen) has some thoughts about the reason of this. And even if those thoughts are wrong the studies he posted is more trustworthy than someones "logical thoughts" about how fin effects us.

I have seen more studies showing decrease in testosterone but also studies showing increase in testo. I've even read a study that showed decrease in people older than 26 and increase in the ones younger.

Don't know what to make of this but I don't think anyone should trust their logical thinking to much when i comes to hormones. It's tricky business

----------


## JulioGP

> Just because you cant see the logic behind this doesn't mean that it is wrong. As you can see, Enden (one of the most active finasteride debaters I have seen) has some thoughts about the reason of this. And even if those thoughts are wrong the studies he posted is more trustworthy than someones "logical thoughts" about how fin effects us.
> 
> I have seen more studies showing decrease in testosterone but also studies showing increase in testo. I've even read a study that showed decrease in people older than 26 and increase in the ones younger.
> 
> Don't know what to make of this but I don't think anyone should trust their logical thinking to much when i comes to hormones. It's tricky business


 I have over 30 years and when I used Finasteride my testosterone rose considerably and aromatized. This process is extremely simple to understand and is one of the bets of the Kératene maintain stable levels of testosterone, which I doubt very much and I will do the test.

----------


## Ted

> I have over 30 years and when I used Finasteride my testosterone rose considerably and aromatized. This process is extremely simple to understand and is one of the bets of the K&#233;ratene maintain stable levels of testosterone, which I doubt very much and I will do the test.


 Did you take any tests before and during fin?
Higher estrogen levels doesn't have to be a result of higher testosterone. DHT in it self is a estrogen inhibitor if I remember correct, so if you decrease DHT you will increase estrogen.

I have seen tests that show decreased testo levels after starting fin. Though most tests I have seen have shown quite stable testo levels and an increase in estrogen after starting fin.

----------


## JulioGP

> Did you take any tests before and during fin?
> Higher estrogen levels doesn't have to be a result of higher testosterone. DHT in it self is a estrogen inhibitor if I remember correct, so if you decrease DHT you will increase estrogen.
> 
> I have seen tests that show decreased testo levels after starting fin. Though most tests I have seen have shown quite stable testo levels and an increase in estrogen after starting fin.


 I do exams every month to keep under control and monitoring my DHT, testosterone and other important hormones. Although there are studies, never seen someone who has posted their blood test with low testosterone after use of Finasteride. Have to see what is the credibility of these studies because if is equal to that Merck performs, suspicion should be great.

----------


## thechamp

Is there anything we can do to control the estrogen levels and weight gain on propecia any supplements besides dim that we can take?

----------


## Conpecia

I'd love an answer to that question champ. letro is the only thing i know of but i'm kinda afraid to mess around with that stuff, actually purchased some several months ago but never used it. might have to start though because my gyno still hurts and it's been almost half a year since i quit fin.

----------


## clandestine

Try the Letro maybe; the earlier the better. Taper on to it, though. And be sure to taper off too. Be consistent in taking it too, same time every day.

Meds like Letro, Nolva, etc. are your only options, barring surgery. There was another great one Ive heard of.. Raloxifene or something. I would urge you to look into it.

----------


## lucrio

I feel like my situation is relevant to this thread so I figure I should make a post. I just began taking the Keratene Alphactive Retard capsules about a week ago and I am starting by taking one every other day so as to ween myself into it. 

The capsules interested me as I experienced side effects on finasteride and I'd like to see if I can get any results from keratene without sides. I have actually been taking grape seed extract for a little over a year now because I heard it has positive effects on hair growth. I will see If this has any influence on whether or not I get side effects. 

So far I haven't really felt any different since starting keratene. My hair seemed to shed ever so slightly more today but I can't say if I'm experiencing an actual shed yet.

----------


## thechamp

> I'd love an answer to that question champ. letro is the only thing i know of but i'm kinda afraid to mess around with that stuff, actually purchased some several months ago but never used it. might have to start though because my gyno still hurts and it's been almost half a year since i quit fin.


 there must be a supplement from body building store I will just start and stop propecia every two weeks

----------


## oppenheimer82

i've also used this for a couple of weeks and it gave me the worst case of brain fog i've ever experienced. very disturbing to say the least. but i have to admit, their customer service is simply top notch! they have a polish guy working in their callcenter in england and he is very polite and helpfull. so i salute them for this.

----------


## oppenheimer82

> Is there anything we can do to control the estrogen levels and weight gain on propecia any supplements besides dim that we can take?


 perhaps use some diindolylmethane to control and reverse estrogen dominance?

----------


## oppenheimer82

> Try the Letro maybe; the earlier the better. Taper on to it, though. And be sure to taper off too. Be consistent in taking it too, same time every day.
> 
> Meds like Letro, Nolva, etc. are your only options, barring surgery. There was another great one Ive heard of.. Raloxifene or something. I would urge you to look into it.


 much better option, but i didn't know it was allowed in here to talk about those substances.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Californication

Honestly, this is imo what is wrong with the forums and even as a new user, it goes on me as well.

Only one person in this thread has gotten an actual before/after blood test done. It is impossible to know if this stuff works without that. I will be getting an "after" one soon, but as said I earlier, my "before" test was messed up by my doctor as he didnt test the actual DHT level, just whether it was within normal range (which it was).

Should my "after" value be fairly low though (no more than 550 pg/mol as I believe this was the highest range on the study), I will look into stopping and getting a "before" test.

----------


## JulioGP

I hear people saying they are not getting results with Kératene. let's remember that finasteride only begins to show some results in six months. I also find difficult start using the product without making a control DHT through examinations. This way you can not know if these effects is reporting that staff are psychological or not. It's like giving a shot in the dark.

----------


## thechamp

There has to be a supplement at a body building store that deals with estrogen??

----------


## Jcm800

> There has to be a supplement at a body building store that deals with estrogen??


 Best bet is to go to a store and ask?

----------


## Cob984

Hey oppenheimer, do you still get the brain fog, i took 2 capsules for the first time today and can barely move, mind is so cloudy,
previously iv been on 1/day to 1/ eod and my hair is struggling, not doing well

----------


## oppenheimer82

no i stopped taking it after three weeks. even @ one capsule/day i was walking around like a zombie.

----------


## thechamp

http://www.bodybuildingoutlet.com/ergopharm6oxo.html use this withfib for estrogen problems

----------


## Cob984

> no i stopped taking it after three weeks. even @ one capsule/day i was walking around like a zombie.


 What next for you? what are you going to use for hair?

----------


## oppenheimer82

> What next for you? what are you going to use for hair?


 s-acetyl-glutathione, bnp-32, spermidine (orally as well as topically) and ramatroban.

----------


## AAsuited

After reading lots of materials about the Kératene Alphactive, talking directly to the company..great customer service by the way...) and considering that I'm definitely not a fan of the "regular" 5ard  inhibitors (finasteride, dutasteride, etc), I decided to give the product a try.I ordered some capsules, and in some weeks will run a "clean" complete blood test before the treatment and will keep taking notes of the effects and also a mensal or two-mounths maximum spaced blood tests.

My point is, this is a very good, high level forum, you have 60 pages discussing this new product that seems to have potential, but mostly in a very amateur way.First, the basic, number one rule before you start a treatment with a new product like this is to run a full "clean" blood test. Then you make a protocol of posology, and just after that you can start taking notes about effects, and of course, analyze posterior blood tests.

So guys, if you want to help the community, and most important, help yourself with a correctly treatment, start doing the things right, taking the medicine like aspirin, and posting random opinions will just cause more confusion.

Like I said, I will just start my treatment with the product in some weeks, maybe a month, and I will put my blood tests and feelings here, if there are other users doing this for some time now, please, update us!!

----------


## thechamp

So the only way to conteract weight gain on fin is steroids stuff that

----------


## thechamp

Diddy, 

I have had hormone tests in the past while on propecia and everything was pretty normal. Altho right now is the time where the weight gain/flabiness is getting real bad. I see the wrinkling on the face.. less fresh/younger looking skin.. and other places on my body with lines/wrinkles/etc where there were none before. I wonder what a hormone test would reveal now, but don't have the insurance to do that anymore (it'd cost me alot more now). 

I think water retention is a big possibility for a few reasons : 

1) The areas that are "fatter" don't really look like normal weight.. it looks more like bloating. 
2) I barely ever have those long urinations.. i barely urinate anymore it seems 
3) When I exercise or do really active things, my entire shirt is wet.. drenched in sweat. Even my boxers are getting soaked sometimes.. and i'm not a big sweater to say the least.

----------


## AAsuited

> Diddy, 
> 
> I have had hormone tests in the past while on propecia and everything was pretty normal. Altho right now is the time where the weight gain/flabiness is getting real bad. I see the wrinkling on the face.. less fresh/younger looking skin.. and other places on my body with lines/wrinkles/etc where there were none before. I wonder what a hormone test would reveal now, but don't have the insurance to do that anymore (it'd cost me alot more now). 
> 
> I think water retention is a big possibility for a few reasons : 
> 
> 1) The areas that are "fatter" don't really look like normal weight.. it looks more like bloating. 
> 2) I barely ever have those long urinations.. i barely urinate anymore it seems 
> 3) When I exercise or do really active things, my entire shirt is wet.. drenched in sweat. Even my boxers are getting soaked sometimes.. and i'm not a big sweater to say the least.


 
Man, to be honest, without complete tests is a pure shot in the dark to analyze this effects, and, I saw you posted yesterday, you are loking for some medicine to reduce strogen levels...You should have a "clean" blood test before everything, another one taking fina, and a recent one (if you are) taking Kérastase, than you can start figuring things. Start to take things to control strogen levels without even know if your issues are caused by unbalance in your strogen levels, is, very risk to say the least...

----------


## AAsuited

If you cannot afford this tests right now, I would suggest quit your treatment to see if you get back to normal, an them start everything the way it should be, in any circunstance you should start to try balance your strogen levels without even know watch is going on with your hormones....

----------


## thechamp

I can afford it what I want to know what my GP would say would he prescribe me something for high estrogen if that's the case and he knows propecia is doing it, do you think a GP would prescribe both ??

----------


## AAsuited

> I can afford it what I want to know what my GP would say would he prescribe me something for high estrogen if that's the case and he knows propecia is doing it, do you think a GP would prescribe both ??


 In this case it will depend on the level of the estrogen, if it's just the estrogen or other hormones are also with alterations and a lot of other factors, not forgetting also, how conservative your Dr. is with his protocols....But the most important you should have in mind is, "hormonal regulations" when you face more serious sides with 5ard inhibitors are not too simple to solve in most cases as some people claim.
Since you are facing some important sides, and have no idea how your hormonal balance is right now, you have some options like just run some blood tests then act, visit a Dr. and run clinical/blood tests or even suspend your treatment and see how your body responds if you don't wanna spend money/time with the above mentioned options, but, definitely the worst thing you can do is "guess" your estrogen is high and take medicine to try to control it...
good luck with your choice :-)

----------


## JulioGP

> Man, to be honest, without complete tests is a pure shot in the dark to analyze this effects, and, I saw you posted yesterday, you are loking for some medicine to reduce strogen levels...You should have a "clean" blood test before everything, another one taking fina, and a recent one (if you are) taking Kérastase, than you can start figuring things. Start to take things to control strogen levels without even know if your issues are caused by unbalance in your strogen levels, is, very risk to say the least...


 totally agree with you. I have seen many posts with no consistency because there is no monitoring of blood tests.

----------


## HARIRI

It has been 2 weeks since I upgraded my intake from one capsule a day to 2 capsules daily. The only side that I noticed is FATIGUE. When I was taking it once a day before bedtime I never felt any kind of fatigue and it was ZERO sides but with taking two capsules Im still fine but I feel like I want to take a nap in the afternoon and also want to go to bed earlier in the evening. 

I will give it one more week, if the the fatigue sides don't go then I guess I will go back to one capsule a day better than nothing. This is my observation Guys.

Anyone wants to share his experience???

----------


## Jasari

> It has been 2 weeks since I upgraded my intake from one capsule a day to 2 capsules daily. The only side that I noticed is FATIGUE. When I was taking it once a day before bedtime I never felt any kind of fatigue and it was ZERO sides but with taking two capsules Im still fine but I feel like I want to take a nap in the afternoon and also want to go to bed earlier in the evening. 
> 
> I will give it one more week, if the the fatigue sides don't go then I guess I will go back to one capsule a day better than nothing. This is my observation Guys.
> 
> Anyone wants to share his experience???


 It does make you pretty tired - I had to take a break because I was waking up with the same fatigue levels I would generally feel late at night after a hard days work. I did notice far less hair fall though.

----------


## Cob984

Yea I popped 2 the other day, i could barely leave my bed, let alone be productive,
Im starting a tough job soon and I might have to go EOD on this , even 1/day really tires me out

----------


## ajays

Yes, I experienced the same for 2-3 weeks. After that it was back to normal.





> It has been 2 weeks since I upgraded my intake from one capsule a day to 2 capsules daily. The only side that I noticed is FATIGUE. When I was taking it once a day before bedtime I never felt any kind of fatigue and it was ZERO sides but with taking two capsules Im still fine but I feel like I want to take a nap in the afternoon and also want to go to bed earlier in the evening. 
> 
> I will give it one more week, if the the fatigue sides don't go then I guess I will go back to one capsule a day better than nothing. This is my observation Guys.
> 
> Anyone wants to share his experience???

----------


## ryan555

Has anyone actually had their blood tested to see if this works?  I got my DHT tested this week with nothing in my system.  Once these pills arrive I'll take for two weeks and re-test.  I know finasteride worked for me because I had many blood tests to prove it.  If this doesn't change my DHT, I'm calling this a scam.

----------


## Cob984

> Has anyone actually had their blood tested to see if this works?  I got my DHT tested this week with nothing in my system.  Once these pills arrive I'll take for two weeks and re-test.  I know finasteride worked for me because I had many blood tests to prove it.  If this doesn't change my DHT, I'm calling this a scam.


 Please post your results, i only have before levels, it is just way too expensive to test dht where i am at, its ridiculous and not feasible on a regular basis

----------


## UK_

> Has anyone actually had their blood tested to see if this works?  I got my DHT tested this week with nothing in my system.  Once these pills arrive I'll take for two weeks and re-test.  I know finasteride worked for me because I had many blood tests to prove it.  If this doesn't change my DHT, I'm calling this a scam.


 Thank the heavens someone's used their initiative and got a blood test prior to taking these!

Thank you Ryan, I think you'll save everyone here a lot of time and hassle!

----------


## ajays

Awesome. God bless you dude. If you dont mind me asking, what's your current DHT?




> Has anyone actually had their blood tested to see if this works?  I got my DHT tested this week with nothing in my system.  Once these pills arrive I'll take for two weeks and re-test.  I know finasteride worked for me because I had many blood tests to prove it.  If this doesn't change my DHT, I'm calling this a scam.

----------


## ryan555

> Awesome. God bless you dude. If you dont mind me asking, what's your current DHT?


 I don't know yet, I haven't gotten the results back.  I'll let you know.

----------


## HARIRI

Starting from tomorrow I am going back to my old dosage which is one capsule a day before bedtime. This will avoid me from fatigue and will still benefit me with some DHT blocking.

----------


## thechamp

Stinging nettle root apparently blocks the conversion of all three, though I'm not exactly sure to what amount. There are also other aromatase inhibitors out there, which I'm looking into now. I'm honestly still in the process of learning about this, so my knowledge is still developing and is pretty much up to this point. I've already started the nettle root, as well as some topical treatments. My finasteride will be here this week. Once I've been on my program a month or two, I plan on getting tested to check levels of all of the above to make sure nothing is too suppressed or out of whack. I'll adjust from there once I have a snapshot of what's going on in my body

----------


## thechamp

You probably missed my edit but resveratrol and grape seed extract are both known to inhibit aromatase.  Resveratrol will need to be at least 300-500 mg and grape seed extract needs to be at least 300mg from my understanding.  Either (or both) taken in one shot once per day.

----------


## AAsuited

It's Nice that some people like Ryan and JulioGP are running blood tests before the medication and planning doing it after.This iniciative is VERY important , so all of us can start to analyze this in a more scientifical view, not just "guess".Nice move guys :-)

Like I said in my first post, my capsules are arriving in some weeks, I will run complete blood tests before and after 1 month , and will keep the tests during the treatment and will post here as soon as I get the results.

Ryan, 2 weeks after the beggining is enought to mensurate the DHT changes, but if you plan to test other hormones as well, 1 month is more recommended.

----------


## UK_

Where are you guys (who live in UK) getting your blood tests from?

----------


## vinnytr

> Where are you guys (who live in UK) getting your blood tests from?


 I would like to know this as well as the cost of the test ?

----------


## JulioGP

I've done two blood tests with the use of Saw Palmetto and now I am almost one month without using Saw Palmetto ready to do another blood test that will serve as the baseline for initiating treatment with Kératene and will also monitor month to month tests while using Kératene. Hope to give a great result.

----------


## UK_

**** this im getting on Fin.

----------


## JulioGP

> **** this im getting on Fin.


 Good Luck with the side effects

----------


## AAsuited

> **** this im getting on Fin.


 
It doesn't matter if your getting on Fin, Saw Palmetto, Kératene or anything else, we are talking about blood tests in Kératene use because it's a new product, but, if you are dealing with oral 5ard inhibitors, blood tests should be protocol....

----------


## thechamp

What are we looking for on the blood tests exactly reading if our estrogen is up? And testosterone is down?

----------


## AAsuited

> What are we looking for on the blood tests exactly reading if our estrogen is up? And testosterone is down?


 In fact, a complete blood test in the using of 5ard inhibitors includes much more than DHT, Testosterone and estrogen, many others like LH,TSH,Prolactin, etc should be checked.
But, I know checking constantly is not viable to everyone, but at least one "clean" test before treatment and an exams periodically(at least annual blood tests if you are not having side effects) are mandatory.You don't need to become paranoid about the medications, but 5ard inhibitors are much more serious medications than most people think...

About the levels of testosterone and estrogen, the use of "regular" 5ard inhibitors such as fina or dutasteride usually cause higher levels of both in your blood because since some part of the T is not becoming DHT anymore, your T levels get higher, and, consequently, your estrogen.....
This changes can or cannot be in a problematic level, and , besides that, each person respond in a diferent way to hormonal balance chances, so knowing your pre medications levels is very important.

About the Kératene, the company claims it works in a different way than the fina/duta, they say their product don't suppress hormones production and is not a permanent inhibitor of the 5ard, the product is just a "enzyme catalyst inhibitor", so, in their words, the Kératene "glues" in the 5ard for some time, not allowing the T to convert in DHT, so, it don't suppress the production of the 5ard, it just prevents a chemical reaction, all the hormones are still avaiable in your organism.

Considering all of this, and in communications with the company, teorically, with this mechanism, taking the Kératene, you would lower your DHT levels without changing to muck your T and Est levels, what would be a great thing.

Well, let's get to the important point.All of this is what the company claims, not what I'm totally convinced yet, but, to see if in real life everything is what the company claims and shows in their studies, we need complete pre-post blood tests, and this is what I'm (and like I see, others like ryan and JulioGP) planning to do(if someone already did, post here!!!!), and what I recommend to everyone that wants to make a safe and fact based treatment.It would be the best to the person health and also would help the community.This is a very high level board, but we have a 63 pages topic with very little fact and science and a lot of "guesses". Also, there's a lot os experienced users that could help, but, with little well conduced treatments, it's impossible to get deeper conclusions...

----------


## JulioGP

I see it as extremely important to monitoring with blood tests. Here is a sample of my blood test. I'm sorry, but my table is in Portuguese. December was my base, was not taking anything. In the 1st and 2nd month of Saw Palmetto strangely my DHT increased and my testosterone dropped. It makes me think that the Saw Palmetto is not a 5AR inhibitor, but acts directly in the follicles, but that does not matter here, since we are talking about k&#233;ratene.




Now I'm doing more one month control / base without taking anything to start K&#233;ratene and have a clean base.

----------


## ryan555

> I see it as extremely important to monitoring with blood tests. Here is a sample of my blood test. I'm sorry, but my table is in Portuguese. December was my base, was not taking anything. In the 1st and 2nd month of Saw Palmetto strangely my DHT increased and my testosterone dropped. It makes me think that the Saw Palmetto is not a 5AR inhibitor, but acts directly in the follicles, but that does not matter here, since we are talking about k&#233;ratene.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm doing more one month control / base without taking anything to start K&#233;ratene and have a clean base.


 Julio, did you take the tests at EXACTLY the same time of day?  I discovered that hormone levels fluctuate in an extreme way throughout the day, peeking in the morning and dropping significantly later in the day.  If the blood draws are not taken at nearly the exact same time, then the results are not accurate at all.  As an example, I discovered that my testosterone was 900 when taken in the AM and 550 when taken at 3:30 in the afternoon.  I don't know why the labs and doctors always fail to mention this extremely important detail.

----------


## JulioGP

Yes, EXACTLY the same time of day. Between 7:30am and 8:00am. I always do my blood tests at the same time and in the same laboratory.

Taking Saw Palmetto could not raise my DHT. Testosterone actually has an oscillation during the day (which is not my case, because I did the exams at the same time) but independent of time, DHT could not be higher than the month I took the test base, as taking 320mg a day and saw palmetto were really a 5AR, DHT would be lower and possibly testosterone higher and gave exactly the opposite.

Tests with K&#233;ratene showed no variation in testosterone and a drop in DHT when it is taking K&#233;ratene, unlike Finasteride that tends to increase testosterone, because if there is less testosterone is converted into DHT, testosterone this "be left" in the blood.. That's what I want to check when my K&#233;ratene arrive.

----------


## AAsuited

> Yes, EXACTLY the same time of day. Between 7:30am and 8:00am. I always do my blood tests at the same time and in the same laboratory.
> 
> Taking Saw Palmetto could not raise my DHT. Testosterone actually has an oscillation during the day (which is not my case, because I did the exams at the same time) but independent of time, DHT could not be higher than the month I took the test base, as taking 320mg a day and saw palmetto were really a 5AR, DHT would be lower and possibly testosterone higher and gave exactly the opposite.
> 
> Tests with Kératene showed no variation in testosterone and a drop in DHT when it is taking Kératene, unlike Finasteride that tends to increase testosterone, because if there is less testosterone is converted into DHT, testosterone this "be left" in the blood.. That's what I want to check when my Kératene arrive.


 

Nice Julio, perfect pratical example of what we are talking about!!!!

This example also reinforces what I said, how important blood tests are, since some people just start taking saw palmetto or anything else and thinks everything is OK, but things don't work like that....But, as you said, the topic is not about saw palmetto, let's focus to analyze the Kératene as soon as we have the results! :-)

----------


## ryan555

By the way, for whoever asked, my "clean" DHT level was 50, on a scale of 30 - 85 (different test than what Julio had).  So it's not really that high anyway.  I am hoping these pills will drop that in half and I would consider it a success.  On Finasteride, my DHT dropped to 8 on the same test.

----------


## JulioGP

> By the way, for whoever asked, my "clean" DHT level was 50, on a scale of 30 - 85 (different test than what Julio had).  So it's not really that high anyway.  I am hoping these pills will drop that in half and I would consider it a success.  On Finasteride, my DHT dropped to 8 on the same test.


 Yes, laboratories use different scales. In tests with K&#233;ratene, they used the similar scale of my blood tests. There was a significant reduction of DHT and most importantly, there was no fluctuation in testosterone levels and this is what I consider the most important. Even if the low K&#233;ratene less than DHT finasteride, there is no change in testosterone levels, the risk of side effects will be smaller.

Look the graphic here:


Considering its scale, you dropped to 10&#37; of your DHT level considered the maximum range of the laboratory where the test was conducted (8 of a maximum around 85). In studies conducted by K&#233;ratene, there is a range that varies from 35% to 75% (350 - 750pg/ml)of a normal maximum DHT level which is considered safe and sufficient to bring the results capillaries, because the DHT is a hormone important for males and should not remain at such low levels.

----------


## UK_

Lol so the answer is?

----------


## AAsuited

> Lol so the answer is?


 
Troll detected...

If you didin't understood man, sorry, nobody can help you, here it's not high school.....

----------


## AAsuited

> Troll detected...
> 
> If you didin't understood man, sorry, nobody can help you, here it's not high school.....


 Forgot to say, read the last 3 pages, them my above phrase is valid....

----------


## UK_

> Troll detected...
> 
> If you didin't understood man, sorry, nobody can help you, here it's not high school.....


 Where did you get a troll detector from?

----------


## thechamp

How do I get my GP to prescribe me a estrogen blocker for fin weight gain?

----------


## Cob984

Im done with this, my hairline is taking a beating and my body just cant tolerate 1/day,
Im gaining weight like a fkin woman, iv had enough,

Back on saw palmetto, waiting for my regenpure, neogenic, and RU to arrive, will continue keratene topicals daily

----------


## UK_

> How do I get my GP to prescribe me a estrogen blocker for fin weight gain?


 I'd just pack out a bra and refuse to take your clothes off due to insecurity and paranoia.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Im done with this, my hairline is taking a beating and my body just cant tolerate 1/day,
> Im gaining weight like a fkin woman, iv had enough,
> 
> Back on saw palmetto, waiting for my regenpure, neogenic, and RU to arrive, will continue keratene topicals daily


 Sigh - we really need better treatments.

----------


## HARIRI

> Im done with this, my hairline is taking a beating and my body just cant tolerate 1/day,
> Im gaining weight like a fkin woman, iv had enough,
> 
> Back on saw palmetto, waiting for my regenpure, neogenic, and RU to arrive, will continue keratene topicals daily


 Try HairOmega DHT, its my favorite Saw Palmetto supplement. It has Beta Sitosterol along with it which makes more effective. Wish you all the best. 

I reduced my intake from 2 capsules to 1 capsule. I cant tolerate the fatigue I get from 2 capsules daily. Right now, Im back to normal. I think once a day is perfect for me.

JULIOGP, Thanks for the great study. It benefited me a lot and made me understand it more.

----------


## Cob984

hey man, is your hair doing a lot better on keratene than it was on hairomega?

----------


## Jairus

Guys Im getting my bloods done next week so I will include a DHT and testosterone check also. I have been off the Keratene for 3 weeks as I went for a HT so I want to know for sure if these do what they say.

I have a few strips of finpecia in reserve if they don't work.

I will report back in 2 weeks

----------


## ryan555

> Sigh - we really need better treatments.


 How long has he been on the treatment?  This is why nothing works for some guys.  You have to stay on the treatments for MONTHS to see results, and often things get worse before they get better.  Without blood tests to see what is going on, there is no point in declaring a treatment a success or failure.  If this product (or any other product) drops DHT, then it will eventually be beneficial for hair loss.  If it doesn't, then it likely will have no effect (unless it is blocking DHT in a different way, which this product does not claim to do).

----------


## vinnytr

Is anyone on this treatment seeing any solid improvement guys ?

I am desperately looking to start using something .... anything that works to thicken miniaturised hairs .

----------


## clandestine

> Is anyone on this treatment seeing any solid improvement guys ?
> 
> I am desperately looking to start using something .... anything that works to thicken miniaturised hairs .


 Fin, Dut, RU, Keratene, maybe CB.. Options?

----------


## HARIRI

> hey man, is your hair doing a lot better on keratene than it was on hairomega?


 Keratene is better of course, It reduced my hair loss a lot even with one capsule a day. I'm so glad that there is a FIN replacement after all with no sexual sides.

However HairOmega DHT is also good maybe the best saw palemtto product I have ever tried among the many I tried such as Provillus, Procerin, Hair Genesis..etc.

----------


## thechamp

GP or dermatologist should I see a GP or dermatologist for blood tests and a estrogen blocker? Wile on fin

----------


## vinnytr

> Fin, Dut, RU, Keratene, maybe CB.. Options?


 anything with massive sides is a no go for me , hence i am seriously looking into keratene right now .

Although i still dont fully understand how it blocks DHT in a different way than finasteride and avoid sides  :Confused:

----------


## Jcm800

> anything with massive sides is a no go for me , hence i am seriously looking into keratene right now .
> 
> Although i still dont fully understand how it blocks DHT in a different way than finasteride and avoid sides


 Same here, seems like it's possibly marketed as a safe Fin alternative - for the likes of us guy's that are cautious of Fin due to poss sides..but actually does nothing. Hmm, need some proof it works, but getting itchy feet, cos trx2 isnt doing jack shit either..

----------


## ajays

It's definitely working for me too. People close to me have commented that my hair diffusion looks less and hair is starting to look darker. My hair was in pretty bad shape when the diffusion was in full swing + i was on minox. I am off minox for past couple of months. Right now on Keratene + Biotin + multi-vitamins. I also use the keratene shampoo and sercomplex thrice a week.




> Is anyone on this treatment seeing any solid improvement guys ?
> 
> I am desperately looking to start using something .... anything that works to thicken miniaturised hairs .

----------


## AAsuited

> How long has he been on the treatment?  This is why nothing works for some guys.  You have to stay on the treatments for MONTHS to see results, and often things get worse before they get better.  Without blood tests to see what is going on, there is no point in declaring a treatment a success or failure.  If this product (or any other product) drops DHT, then it will eventually be beneficial for hair loss.  If it doesn't, then it likely will have no effect (unless it is blocking DHT in a different way, which this product does not claim to do).


 
Totally Agree with Ryan!!! Like me and JulioGP already pointed in a very clear way, this is not a "regular" treatment to use in conjunction with fin, it's a totally new product to SUBSTITUTE regular oral 5ard inhibitor ( or DHT inhibitor, let's be simpler, because it looks like some don't even understand basic terms)....So, the product can, or cannot deliver what it promises that is lower your DHT with less sides and hormonal alterations(T, estrogen,etc) than fins/duta/saw palmetto, and that's what me and other users are beginning to check....Kératene researches, and some European doctors are starting to comprove their studies, but, let's repeat, to check this, YOU NEED BLOOD/HORMONAL tests!!!
There is a bunch of people that have no idea about how their hormonal balance are, taking the medicine like candies for little weeks/months, without any kind of tests and posting some totally crap observations...

So, let's repeat (repeating maybe can lead to at least a minimal absorption of the information) this is not a topical treatment that you can use in conjunction with your 5 years fina treat, It's a NEW oral 5ard catalyst inhibitor, with a NEW mechanism, and like any other oral DHT reducer, it takes MONTHS to get visible results!!!! And again, oral products that promises to reduce serical DHT levels by a different approach in the 5ard, and consequently, with all the benefits, like Kératene claims, are the answer that all of us are waiting for decades...
So, Kératene can or cannot deliver all of this, it's very early to say, we are just starting to figure that, but if you are considering giving the product a try, and I really think it's worth, don't waste money and time, run a previous blood test, follow the protocol of your treatment, and in some time you can start to figure in blood tests and clinically if the product is right for you....if you don't plan to follow this basic tips and make a decent treatment, just buy a ton of finasteride, eat as jellybeans, save money and be happy, maybe you are luck and will never have any consequences...

----------


## AAsuited

Forgot to multiquote, my post above was an answer complimentary and in agreement to Ryan's answer to  user yeahyeahyeah that said we need better treatments......

----------


## Jcm800

> It's definitely working for me too. People close to me have commented that my hair diffusion looks less and hair is starting to look darker. My hair was in pretty bad shape when the diffusion was in full swing + i was on minox. I am off minox for past couple of months. Right now on Keratene + Biotin + multi-vitamins. I also use the keratene shampoo and sercomplex thrice a week.


 
How long have you been on it??

----------


## thechamp

I booked an appointment with my GP so how am I going to get him to prescribe me estrogen blockers?

----------


## ajays

Close to 4 months....




> How long have you been on it??

----------


## StayThick

> It's definitely working for me too. People close to me have commented that my hair diffusion looks less and hair is starting to look darker. My hair was in pretty bad shape when the diffusion was in full swing + i was on minox. I am off minox for past couple of months. Right now on Keratene + Biotin + multi-vitamins. I also use the keratene shampoo and sercomplex thrice a week.


 Is hair hair turning darker in color necessarily a good thing? I ask because that's exactly what happened to me when I was on FIN. It turned my hair from light brown to extremely dark brown almost black... But yet my hair was still thinning and corners would not improve.

Is it a known effect that FIN or any antiandrogen can cause hair turn darker in color? Interesting that keratene is causing this as well.

----------


## Jcm800

> I booked an appointment with my GP so how am I going to get him to prescribe me estrogen blockers?


 Open your mouth and ask him champ eh?

----------


## Cob984

Its only been 2 days since quitting Kar and i can feel thinner hair already, it feels worse and it looks worse, so clearly Kar was doing something good though not stopping my hairloss

On the other end, my energy levels are way up, i feel significantly more active/less bloated/less heavy,
Clearly Kar is a dht blocker which unfortunately is giving me sides but helping hair

----------


## thechamp

> Its only been 2 days since quitting Kar and i can feel thinner hair already, it feels worse and it looks worse, so clearly Kar was doing something good though not stopping my hairloss
> 
> On the other end, my energy levels are way up, i feel significantly more active/less bloated/less heavy,
> Clearly Kar is a dht blocker which unfortunately is giving me sides but helping hair


 Why don't you ask your GP for a estrogen blocker and get blood tests

----------


## JulioGP

I agree with AAsuited. 

It's tricky start taking K&#233;ratene / Finasteride / Dutasteride / Saw Palmetto or any other medication that causes hormonal change without monitoring the possible changes.

I think you can not expect many results before six months, as well as Finasteride, of course I am referring to visible results.

The only way you have to know if the K&#233;ratene doing any effect on your DHT even before visible results is with blood tests. Managing to keep your DHT at a level considered "ideal" for the recovery of follicles, so this result starts to become visible even will take a few months.

I can not wait to get mine to begin testing too.  :Smile:

----------


## UK_

> I agree with AAsuited. 
> 
> It's tricky start taking Kératene / Finasteride / Dutasteride / Saw Palmetto or any other medication that causes hormonal change without monitoring the possible changes.
> 
> I think you can not expect many results before six months, as well as Finasteride, of course I am referring to visible results.
> 
> The only way you have to know if the Kératene doing any effect on your DHT even before visible results is with blood tests. Managing to keep your DHT at a level considered "ideal" for the recovery of follicles, so this result starts to become visible even will take a few months.
> 
> I can not wait to get mine to begin testing too.


 Even if you're currently taking Keratene, it would be ideal to stop treatment for 14 days, have a blood test, then resume then get tested again to see if it's working.

I would do this, but in the UK they dont allow you to go for blood tests for such reasons, and if someone can point me in the direction of a private UK clinic that would test my DHT/TEST/ESTRADIOL levels then that would be greatly appreciated.

----------


## AAsuited

> Even if you're currently taking Keratene, it would be ideal to stop treatment for 14 days, have a blood test, then resume then get tested again to see if it's working.
> 
> I would do this, but in the UK they dont allow you to go for blood tests for such reasons, and if someone can point me in the direction of a private UK clinic that would test my DHT/TEST/ESTRADIOL levels then that would be greatly appreciated.


 I was on fina for very little time, but to be sure that I'm "clean" I will wait 2 more weeks to complete 1 month off, then get tested and just after that start Kératene, I think Julio is doing the same.

It's very sad in an advanced country such as UK it's not so simple to get tested, here in BR (at least in the major pats of the country) if you have a really good insurance or the money to pay, you can find awesome laboratories easily...But UK probably have good private laboratories, I'm sure some user can help you, and certainly will worth the money :-D

But anyway, even if it's not possible to run tests so frequently in some places, a "clean" test before the treatment and others with 1, 2 or even 3 months after the beginning is already a very safe checkup protocol...what is unthinkable is the shot in the dark with no tests, no protocol, and followed by shit talk/pseudo-analysis that a lot of people are doing...

----------


## JulioGP

Guys,

My Kératene arrived. I´ll start tomorrow. 



I will updating here as needed and if it occurs something different. So I do the next exam now with the influence of Kératene, and will post the results.

hugs

----------


## HARIRI

> Guys,
> 
> My K&#233;ratene arrived. I&#180;ll start tomorrow. 
> 
> 
> 
> I will updating here as needed and if it occurs something different. So I do the next exam now with the influence of K&#233;ratene, and will post the results.
> 
> hugs


 wow, new look. They updated the design of the bottle and made it more attractive. So are you going to take one capsule a day or 2 capsules? My friendly advice is to take it before bedtime if once a day to avoid any fatigue issue.

----------


## thechamp

I'm going to take the tinyest bit of fin u can see to the human eye once a week see if I still get the weight gain

----------


## AAsuited

> Guys,
> 
> My Kératene arrived. I´ll start tomorrow. 
> 
> 
> 
> I will updating here as needed and if it occurs something different. So I do the next exam now with the influence of Kératene, and will post the results.
> 
> hugs


 Nice Julio, mine I think is arriving soon!!Ow, and check when you can, I did send you a pmsg in ************ (off topic, about our posting service in BR, int buying products infos,etc. would not polute this topic with this hehe...by the way, the only good thing in that forum are the private messages, this one is much better.. LOL)

----------


## Jcm800

> wow, new look. They updated the design of the bottle and made it more attractive. So are you going to take one capsule a day or 2 capsules? My friendly advice is to take it before bedtime if once a day to avoid any fatigue issue.


 How long will one container last please? Did you order two together?

----------


## HARIRI

> How long will one container last please? Did you order two together?


 Each container contains 60 capsules which suppose to be a one month supply if taken twice a day but fortunately in my case it lasts for 2 months as I take it once a day. 

Julio ordered 2 bottles so it depends upon his usage whether it will last for 2 or 4 months  :Big Grin: 

In my case I ordered one order 180 capsules which made me save more money, Julio ordered 2 single orders of 60 capsules which costs more but I understand that he may not want to risk it.

http://www.keratene.eu/shop/new-products.php

Or

http://www.prohairclinic.be/en/

----------


## Jcm800

> Each container contains 60 capsules which suppose to be a one month supply if taken twice a day but fortunately in my case it lasts for 2 months as I take it once a day. 
> 
> Julio ordered 2 bottles so it depends upon his usage whether it will last for 2 or 4 months


 Ok thanks a lot. Hmm think I might try this, if it doesn't work, last throw off the dice will be finasteride for me.

----------


## JulioGP

Guys,

Answering the questions:

HARIRI - I'll start as one capsule a day, according to the instructions accompanying the product. The manual says:

When the DHT level is known. (This is my case, my DHT is 989pg/ml)
1 - DHT level between 849 and 1673pg/ml, 1 capsule per day in the morning between 8 and 9. 

I will start using the morning and see how I will be in terms of fatigue. According to the manual, fatigue is expected. "reduces the level of DHT androgen in the body, it may affect the performance of professional athletes. It is recommended to interrupt the administration of Kératene with at least 10 days before a competition."

If it gets too bad, start taking evening. Thanks for the tip. :Smile: 


JCM800 - The HARIRI answered the question. Exactly, just bought 2 bottles not to take risk with the supervision of the board of health at customs in Brazil. How I-ll start with only 1 capsule per day, is to last four months. In the meantime I'll do some tests with it and seeing how are the levels of hormones including DHT to decide whether it is worthwhile to increase to 2 capsules or not, it may not be necessary.

AAsuited - I add you! Thank you.

----------


## HARIRI

> Guys,
> 
> Answering the questions:
> 
> HARIRI - I'll start as one capsule a day, according to the instructions accompanying the product. The manual says:
> 
> When the DHT level is known. (This is my case, my DHT is 989pg/ml)
> 1 - DHT level between 849 and 1673pg/ml, 1 capsule per day in the morning between 8 and 9. 
> 
> I will start using the morning and see how I will be in terms of fatigue. According to the manual, fatigue is expected. "reduces the level of DHT androgen in the body, it may affect the performance of professional athletes. It is recommended to interrupt the administration of K&#233;ratene with at least 10 days before a competition."


 For your info, I spoke to Mr. Marc Costin their manager and he told me it doesnt matter whether if taken in the morning or evening. They dont have any study about it, they just guessed that the man hormones are high because of the morning wood. However he told me that once in the evening is better to avoid any fatigue. The last thing you want is low work performance at your office. 

Good luck and we appreciate the tests you will go through in order to clarify to us whether its really working or not. Obrigado Amigo  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jairus

Julio are you planning to re test your DHT levels around 2 weeks into using the pills? As opposed to waiting four months. In the published study, the DHT was reduced significantly after 2 weeks so you should know where you stand at that stage.

----------


## JulioGP

HARIRI - De nada meu amigo!  :Smile:  

Jairus, I probably will do my first scan after starting Kératene half of June, because I will be traveling in a few days. Will be given about 20 days of treatment, so, a few extra days to prove Kératene functioning or not as it should about DHT and the others hormones.

HARIRI, Mr. Marc should even be right. I'll make this initial test in the morning to see what happens.

Another important point, I do physical exercises in the gym regularly for about 15 years. The only supplement that consumption is Whey Protein. I'm no athlete, but I'm not as amateur as well  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  so if there is a high level of fatigue, sure I'll feel.

In this case I´ll report in the forum and will change the medication for the night time to see what happens.

hugs

----------


## JulioGP

HARIRI - De nada, meu amigo!  :Smile:  

Jairus, I probably will do my first blood test after starting Kératene, half of June because I will be traveling in a few days. Will be given about 20 days of treatment, so, a few extra days to prove Kératene functioning or not as it should about DHT and the others hormones.

HARIRI, Mr. Marc should even be right. I'll make this initial test in the morning to see what happens.

Another important point, I do physical exercises in the gym regularly for about 15 years. The only supplement that consumption is Whey Protein. I'm no athlete, but I'm not as amateur as well  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  so if there is a high level of fatigue, sure I'll feel.

In this case I´ll report in the forum and will change the medication for the night time to see what happens.

hugs

----------


## Dees Dab

Also thinking of trying this product. 

Can't find any before/after pictures on their website.

What would be the best topical growth stimulant to add that is not minox? 

I have some diffusing on top and mini hairs on the crown.

----------


## Jairus

Muchas gracias por la informacion Julio y no te preocupes, veinte dias = suficiente.

My Spanish is ropey as hell, but since u speak portuguese I hope u understand.

Will be keeping an eye on your updates in anticipation...good luck

----------


## UK_

> Also thinking of trying this product. 
> 
> Can't find any before/after pictures on their website.
> 
> What would be the best topical growth stimulant to add that is not minox? 
> 
> I have some diffusing on top and mini hairs on the crown.


 Before and after pictures are pointless - better to see if the compound is capable of lowering DHT, far more simple - duntchathink?

----------


## ryan555

> For your info, I spoke to Mr. Marc Costin their manager and he told me it doesnt matter whether if taken in the morning or evening. They dont have any study about it, they just guessed that the man hormones are high because of the morning wood.


 That's not very reassuring.  It is common knowledge that male hormones are generally much higher in the morning.  I hope their scientists are not "guessing" on such obvious facts.

----------


## JulioGP

> Also thinking of trying this product. 
> 
> Can't find any before/after pictures on their website.
> 
> What would be the best topical growth stimulant to add that is not minox? 
> 
> I have some diffusing on top and mini hairs on the crown.


 My friend, difficult a topic that does not contain Minox. A good alternative for you to join the K&#233;ratene with some topical solution in my opinion would be the Spectral DNC-S does not contain Minox but seems to be a great product because it combines in its formula several key ingredients.

Good luck and if you're really starting K&#233;ratene, be sure to share your experience here! If possible, do DHT and testosterone tests at least.

----------


## Jcm800

> Before and after pictures are pointless - better to see if the compound is capable of lowering DHT, far more simple - duntchathink?


 +1 

I'm waiting patiently for you guy's that are willing to spend on tests, take one for the team, i did with trx2, your turn now, i'm keenly awaiting your report's, hope this isn't another let down scam.

----------


## AAsuited

This topic is becoming much more focused and people are getting the point, and the importance of some protocols.Like I said before, this is not a complimentary treatment, is a completely new oral DHT reducer (5ard catalyst inhibitor) so, if our personal tests match their studies...bingo! maybe a new era of oral DHT reducers with much less sides has begun.Till them, tests, follow protocols and patience are essential.And, the most people running the correct previous and post blood tests, more we can have a big database and clinical observation to discuss and maximize our treatments!

Yep UK_ , I agree, the point is reduce the DHT levels, visible results will take as much as any other 5ard inhbitor like finasteride.The main point, besides the DHT reduction, and that's what we are all hopping their studies are correct, is the little to no alteration in the strogen/prolactine/testosterone/etc...

I will run my complete "clean" tests in 10 days, and after that start my treatment and update here my observations and posterior blood tests just as Julio. till them will be following the discussion.

One very important issue!!!!
Some users asked about complimentary treatments(most topical).I think most of you already know you can't, no matter what, mix the K&#233;ratene capsules with regular oral 5ard inhibitor like Fina/Duta. Thinking about this and studying, I came to the conclusion that, if any of you are taking K&#233;ratene and using some topical treatment with some product that contain finasteride (if some don't know, this kind of topical with tina exists and, for the ones that want finasteride in their blood, it's pretty effective), studies are showing that finasteride, when well absorbed(like in a lipossome formula) will act even in very small doses, so, pay attention and don't ever consider topical treatments with Fina/duta when Taking K&#233;ratene.

----------


## AAsuited

> This topic is becoming much more focused and people are getting the point, and the importance of some protocols.Like I said before, this is not a complimentary treatment, is a completely new oral DHT reducer (5ard catalyst inhibitor) so, if our personal tests match their studies...bingo! maybe a new era of oral DHT reducers with much less sides has begun.Till them, tests, follow protocols and patience are essential.And, the most people running the correct previous and post blood tests, more we can have a big database and clinical observation to discuss and maximize our treatments!
> 
> Yep UK_ , I agree, the point is reduce the DHT levels, visible results will take as much as any other 5ard inhbitor like finasteride.The main point, besides the DHT reduction, and that's what we are all hopping their studies are correct, is the little to no alteration in the strogen/prolactine/testosterone/etc...
> 
> I will run my complete "clean" tests in 10 days, and after that start my treatment and update here my observations and posterior blood tests just as Julio. till them will be following the discussion.
> 
> One very important issue!!!!
> Some users asked about complimentary treatments(most topical).I think most of you already know you can't, no matter what, mix the K&#233;ratene capsules with regular oral 5ard inhibitor like Fina/Duta. Thinking about this and studying, I came to the conclusion that, if any of you are taking K&#233;ratene and using some topical treatment with some product that contain finasteride (if some don't know, this kind of topical with tina exists and, for the ones that want finasteride in their blood, it's pretty effective), studies are showing that finasteride, when well absorbed(like in a lipossome formula) will act even in very small doses, so, pay attention and don't ever consider topical treatments with Fina/duta when Taking K&#233;ratene..


 Thinking about this issue I started to study about other products that contain DHT inhibitors in their formula, since I use minoxidil as my topical choine and I like to use brands that have also DHT inhibitors  and advanced absorption formulas like Spectral DNC-L(nanossomes) or Lipogaine (lipossomes) and both use DHT inhibitors like saw palmetto, azelaic acid, and others.My main question was that if this products acts just locally in the scalp or their are absorbed in a level that they become bioavaiable and active in the blood. Since there are no studies about that I emailed DS laboratories(Spectral producer) and Lipogaine and both of them said their product acts just locally and the blood biodisponibility is minimal.Considering their answers, and that saw palmetto is not like fina that with just very few mg in the blood acts (you need a lot of oral doses of saw palmetto to work, not just 1mg), I think their are correct in their affirmations, so, if someone else also likes to use minoxidil with DHT inhibitors, apparently will not interfere in the efficacy of the oral K&#233;ratene treatment.
I also had briefly discussed this subject in the K&#233;ratene website "chat" and they also said this minoxidil topicals with saw palmetto are safe to use with K&#233;ratene.
As I said before, and like to reinforce, just don't even consider topicals with tina/duta taking K&#233;ratene!!!
And as always, if someone have extra informations on this subject, or want to send an extra e-mail directly to K&#233;ratene technical team, we are all ears, since we are using a product that can't be mixed with other 5ard inhibitors in blood level, the safety of ours complimentary topical treatments are very important!
regards.

----------


## JulioGP

It is true. 

Is the product manual that it should not be consumed with another 5AR inhibitor like finasteride or dutasteride. Even though these are being applied topically, there may be systemic absorption. In the instruction manual that accompanies the product there is no mention about the topical use of saw palmetto. I'm really hoping that this product is the most promising alternative for anyone who had side effects with Finasteride (like my case).

I abandoned Finasteride for more than one year due to various side effects. If the only side effect with the Kératene will be fatigue, will be easy. Just buy a few cans of RedBull. This product should be a revolutionary landmark in the fight against baldness.

I look forward to completing my blood test in the second part of June and see what I will find.

----------


## vinnytr

I have been to my GP yesterday and been told GPs in uk are not allowed to prescribe DHT tests but they can prescribe a T test . From what I experienced ,I dont even think she knew what DHT meant  :Frown: 

I was sort of expecting this anyway ,so I asked for local labs she might know off so I can get the tests done privately.
Already emailed one of the hospitals and awaiting a reply .

Will update with my DHT test results soon hopefully  :Smile: 

Please keep the updates coming people , we can even conduct our very own research on Keratene.

----------


## UK_

> I have been to my GP yesterday and been told GPs in uk are not allowed to prescribe DHT tests but they can prescribe a T test . From what I experienced ,I dont even think she knew what DHT meant 
> 
> I was sort of expecting this anyway ,so I asked for local labs she might know off so I can get the tests done privately.
> Already emailed one of the hospitals and awaiting a reply .
> 
> Will update with my DHT test results soon hopefully 
> 
> Please keep the updates coming people , we can even conduct our very own research on Keratene.


 She didnt know what DHT meant?  Wow, id seriously consider finding another doctor, god knows what else she doesnt know.

----------


## Jcm800

Uk- have you decided to try Fin again afterall? Personally I'm hanging out for people's blood results re Keratene, I'm sure i read somewhere that a guy did have his bloods done, and the difference was negligible at best. May have been further back on this thread actually.

----------


## Jairus

Hi garmin333
I was one of the guys that took part in their trials. I signed up from their site. My trial went O.K., no complaints whatsoever for 11 months now (going strong knock on wood 3x) also no sides. In the beginning they did ask if I dont do athletic activities and sport stuff and that it may be possible to get tired after a while but I had no such problems. They took blood several times up to a point that I got fed up getting drained dry by those vampires. They took my blood 11 times!! Eventually I got the results by post and dht went from 2140 (before) to 620 (after two weeks). From the repeat tests it looked like after a few months it was at pretty much the same level of around 600. My next blood test is due in a month or so. I swear it's the last needle I take up my veins. Unfortunately I signed to papers with them and I have to go thru with this but I don't recommend so many blood test to anyone. They kept telling me it's essential to measure blood sh*t and crap to see how stuff evolves and what is stabilized and more medical scifi crap about hormones enzyme chemicals and genes that none understands but I had enough of needles! For the moment I feel great and I have zero loss of sex drive, hair loss just stopped, it's O.K. (I would like to say amazing compared to what I was losing before). No bad feelings for those guys they were very professional and compassionate but I'll certainly stay away from any other trials that involve needles. Keep you posted soon about the next results. 
Greetz D 

This geezer apparently signed up to the trials - this extract is on page 2 of this thread I think.

----------


## Cob984

> Uk- have you decided to try Fin again afterall? Personally I'm hanging out for people's blood results re Keratene, I'm sure i read somewhere that a guy did have his bloods done, and the difference was negligible at best. May have been further back on this thread actually.


 i really doubt this is the case, on the recommended dose of 2/day this 100% reduces dht, all the classical symptoms of dht are there, shrinkage, loss of muscle, weight gain, body hair reduction, fatigue,
i dont think this is placebo, on the other hand, i find it difficult to avoid sides on this

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, 

This is even a great idea for those who are taking Finasteride and are planning to have children in the coming year. 

Sitosterols will most likely NOT have the same risk factors as Finasteride on an embryo and will not be found in any detectable traces in the semen as it is a food sourced from Rice bran oil, etc...

For those that are planning pregnancy, STOP finasteride 2-3 months before conception to increase sperm count and remove all traces of Finasteride from the semen! Once pregnancy test is POSITIVE then start Keratene Alpha-Active 2 daily to prevent any further loss during the course of pregnancy (next 9 months). 

Hope that is helpful...

Cheers

----------


## HARIRI

Great advice Desmond84, Glad to see you in this thread. Keep contributing Buddy :-)

----------


## Jcm800

You're of the opinion that this works then?  @Desmond 84

----------


## UK_

This is rubbish, your best bet is finasteride or dut - if they dont work for you then atleast you can say you've done everything in your power to prevent hair loss.

----------


## Jcm800

You're most likely right sadly. Have you tried fin again?

----------


## UK_

> Uk- have you decided to try Fin again afterall? Personally I'm hanging out for people's blood results re Keratene, I'm sure i read somewhere that a guy did have his bloods done, and the difference was negligible at best. May have been further back on this thread actually.


 Jcm im gonna go for it, I'll pop a finasteride later this week - I really cant afford to risk more hair on these herbal compounds - it's pretty obvious they're selling a form of beta-sisterol which ive tried before with failure.

I'm also not going to risk losing all my hair relying on these future treatments to grow new hair - we know Aderans have only grown Chimeric hairs and Histogen we still dont know if they're creating new hair follicles - as for team tokyo which is REAL HM - well thats a decade away.

The best treatment so far out of everything we've been through has to be the method created by Dr Coen Gho - seriously, if you're thinking of having a transplant you'd be mad if you didnt go with this guy.

----------


## Jcm800

> Jcm im gonna go for it, I'll pop a finasteride later this week - I really cant afford to risk more hair on these herbal compounds - it's pretty obvious they're selling a form of beta-sisterol.


 
Will you be popping 0.25 mg EOD? I'm at a point that if I don't take it I'll be at the point of no return before long.  Trx2 and Msm ain't helping me.

----------


## UK_

> Will you be popping 0.25 mg EOD? I'm at a point that if I don't take it I'll be at the point of no return before long.  Trx2 and Msm ain't helping me.


 Thing is if you havent tried it yet - you can atleast say you did all you could to prevent hair loss - if you know what I mean?  And believe me when I say, I dont think ive ever gained such an appreciation for the complexity of human biology since suffering hair loss lol - these literally are organs we're trying to preserve here.

I'll be splitting 1mg in 1/2 so .5 EOD for 3 months.  Have been on RU+Keratene but I think the effects of Finasteride on its own just eclipse this regimen.  Kind of makes you think eh?  What if finasteride didnt even exist? lol.

----------


## Desmond84

> You're of the opinion that this works then?  @Desmond 84


 I think we will know soon enough  :Smile:  We have our BTT brothers working on it as we speak. We should give it some benefit of the doubt though...there's loads of studies that suggests it may be doing what it claims. 

BUT, I would still give Finasteride a shot before trying Keratene...this should be reserved for those that DO NOT tolerate fin...

I'm planning on posting my experience with Finasteride sometimes this week...it's been a rough ride but I see a light at the end of the tunnel which I think would be very beneficial to those planning to start fin...

----------


## Jcm800

> I think we will know soon enough  We have our BTT brothers working on it as we speak. We should give it some benefit of the doubt though...there's loads of studies that suggests it may be doing what it claims. 
> 
> BUT, I would still give Finasteride a shot before trying Keratene...this should be reserved for those that DO NOT tolerate fin...
> 
> I'm planning on posting my experience with Finasteride sometimes this week...it's been a rough ride but I see a light at the end of the tunnel which I think would be very beneficial to those planning to start fin...


 Nice one, I look forward to reading that when you post it.

----------


## Jcm800

> Thing is if you havent tried it yet - you can atleast say you did all you could to prevent hair loss - if you know what I mean?  And believe me when I say, I dont think ive ever gained such an appreciation for the complexity of human biology since suffering hair loss lol - these literally are organs we're trying to preserve here.
> 
> I'll be splitting 1mg in 1/2 so .5 EOD for 3 months.  Have been on RU+Keratene but I think the effects of Finasteride on its own just eclipse this regimen.  Kind of makes you think eh?  What if finasteride didnt even exist? lol.


 And sides UK? You're going to roll with them then?

----------


## UK_

> I think we will know soon enough  We have our BTT brothers working on it as we speak. We should give it some benefit of the doubt though...there's loads of studies that suggests it may be doing what it claims. 
> 
> BUT, I would still give Finasteride a shot before trying Keratene...this should be reserved for those that DO NOT tolerate fin...
> 
> I'm planning on posting my experience with Finasteride sometimes this week...it's been a rough ride but I see a light at the end of the tunnel which I think would be very beneficial to those planning to start fin...


 Hey Desmond in short, im losing ground fast, should I take fin?

----------


## Jcm800

> Hey Desmond in short, im losing ground fast, should I take fin?


 +1 from me as well Desmond, tho I'm in the older age range (just turned 44) but still a vain fkr who cares..

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys, reading your posts kind of motivated to do the post now, so here's the link:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=12698

Let me know, if I didn;t cover something...

Good luck...and don;t forget we're all here to get you through this mess...

Cheers

----------


## clandestine

> Hey Desmond in short, im losing ground fast, should I take fin?


 You know better than to ask that.

And you already know the answer.

----------


## UK_

> You know better than to ask that.
> 
> And you already know the answer.


 Well I think after reading Desmonds summary on his time with Finasteride I will go ahead with it.

----------


## Jcm800

Where do you get yours from UK?

----------


## HARIRI

I got mine from The Belgravia Centre in London. Here is the address:-

The Belgravia Centre,
52 Grosvenor Gardens,
London SW1W 0AU
United Kingdom

Its near Victoria Underground station.

----------


## Jcm800

> I got mine from The Belgravia Centre in London. Here is the address:-
> 
> The Belgravia Centre,
> 52 Grosvenor Gardens,
> London SW1W 0AU
> United Kingdom
> 
> Its near Victoria Underground station.


 Thanks, but I wouldn't get it from there, rip off prices?

----------


## JulioGP

> Hi garmin333
> I was one of the guys that took part in their trials. I signed up from their site. My trial went O.K., no complaints whatsoever for 11 months now (going strong knock on wood 3x) also no sides. In the beginning they did ask if I dont do athletic activities and sport stuff and that it may be possible to get tired after a while but I had no such problems. They took blood several times up to a point that I got fed up getting drained dry by those vampires. They took my blood 11 times!! Eventually I got the results by post and dht went from 2140 (before) to 620 (after two weeks). From the repeat tests it looked like after a few months it was at pretty much the same level of around 600. My next blood test is due in a month or so. I swear it's the last needle I take up my veins. Unfortunately I signed to papers with them and I have to go thru with this but I don't recommend so many blood test to anyone. They kept telling me it's essential to measure blood sh*t and crap to see how stuff evolves and what is stabilized and more medical scifi crap about hormones enzyme chemicals and genes that none understands but I had enough of needles! For the moment I feel great and I have zero loss of sex drive, hair loss just stopped, it's O.K. (I would like to say amazing compared to what I was losing before). No bad feelings for those guys they were very professional and compassionate but I'll certainly stay away from any other trials that involve needles. Keep you posted soon about the next results. 
> Greetz D 
> 
> This geezer apparently signed up to the trials - this extract is on page 2 of this thread I think.


 Friend, very interesting your story. I wonder if in addition to the blood test you did and found the fall of DHT, there was a finding of change in testosterone levels.

That would funcamental the success of this product.

----------


## JulioGP

An update here. 

I'm on the fifth day of use Kératene and no fatigue or any other problem. Going to the gym every day and training hard, no change in strength.

Of course it is too early to judge, but only for information.

----------


## UK_

> Thanks, but I wouldn't get it from there, rip off prices?


 Dude Belgravia are a complete rip off, they charge you hundreds for something that can be obtained for around £15 a month.

I followed the advice of Spex and used UK Finasteride (they only use UK based pharmacies to produce the drug).

http://ukfinasteride.info/

----------


## Jairus

Julio what was your DHT levels before you started the pills?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

hi guys. tomorrow i will visit my endochrinologist to discuss about starting keratene pills and to measure my dht , before i start, i will then measure it again after a while on pills. i hope i will have HIGH DHT now so the pills will save my hair by reducing it. is anything else i should measure?

also please, i read on this thread cob had sides,  :Frown: 

did any of you had any similar sexual sides?

the only thing that keeps me not to start it is the sexual sides i am so afraid of them.

thanks

----------


## Jairus

Too Young - I doubt you will experience sexual sides as, from what I have read, the pills don't have anything to do with altering the hormonal production. Rather they stop a chemical reaction in the formation of DHT. I only experience a bit of fatigue while on them and it seems to be common complaint. 

I would get your testosterone levels checked also.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

thanks jairus for the fast response,

so i will update you tomorow with the tests,  :Smile: 

my regime will be rogain foam twice,one keratene pill a day,and 2x week nizoral,

i hope to regrow sth  :Smile:  except from keeping.

----------


## JulioGP

> Julio what was your DHT levels before you started the pills?


 My DHT was 723(base) and 989(2 months with Saw Palmetto). There are 1 month that I quit Saw Palmetto, so I'll consider something between 750 and 900.

----------


## JulioGP

> Too Young - I doubt you will experience sexual sides as, from what I have read, the pills don't have anything to do with altering the hormonal production. Rather they stop a chemical reaction in the formation of DHT. I only experience a bit of fatigue while on them and it seems to be common complaint. 
> 
> I would get your testosterone levels checked also.


 
Jairus,
 what was your testosterone levels before you started the pills?

----------


## Jairus

> My DHT was 723(base) and 989(2 months with Saw Palmetto). There are 1 month that I quit Saw Palmetto, so I'll consider something between 750 and 900.


 Ok cool...any idea what it was before you started Saw?

----------


## Jairus

> Jairus,
>  what was your testosterone levels before you started the pills?


 I foolishly jumped on the pills without getting a test. I then got a HT so I stopped altogether. I am getting my test results sometime this week so I will update here when I receive them. I will be starting the two week trial when I get the results.

----------


## JulioGP

> Ok cool...any idea what it was before you started Saw?


 So, before I start taking anything my DHT was 723. After starting the Saw Palmetto was 989 and then lowered to getting a little 908. This probably occurred because the saw palmetto acts by blocking DHT in the follicles and not inhibiting 5AR. With this, just place an excess of DHT in the blood. But for the test with K&#233;ratene I can consider two bases. The first of 723 that I did not take anything. And the last (1 month ago) that my DHT was 908 and I was taking saw palmetto (which is already stopped about 3 weeks to start K&#233;ratene without taking anything).

It will be very difficult to discover the true effects of K&#233;ratene it did not do a blood test before starting.

----------


## Jcm800

> Dude Belgravia are a complete rip off, they charge you hundreds for something that can be obtained for around &#163;15 a month.
> 
> I followed the advice of Spex and used UK Finasteride (they only use UK based pharmacies to produce the drug).
> 
> http://ukfinasteride.info/


 
Cheers yeah but looks like you can only order 14 month's worth of 5mg Fin minimum?  Looks like the 1mg is being reserved for repeat customers.

----------


## UK_

> Cheers yeah but looks like you can only order 14 month's worth of 5mg Fin minimum?  Looks like the 1mg is being reserved for repeat customers.


 Yes but it also states 'email for availability', so if you email them they'll be able to ship you the 1mg fin.

----------


## Jcm800

> Yes but it also states 'email for availability', so if you email them they'll be able to ship you the 1mg fin.


 Yes it does, you're right.  I'll mail them. I'd only need one packet initially anyway, would be following Desmonds dosage, would last ages. 

Have you started it again?

----------


## HARIRI

Hi Guys, Just want to share something. When I upgraded my intake to 2 capsules a day I noticed the fatigue factor plus I had some pain in my right testicle. However when I went back to my original dose which is one capsule a day before bedtime the sides disappeared gradually. It took one day for the fatigue and 3 days for the testicle pain to diminish. Hope this helps.

----------


## Californication

Hariri, how aggressive is your hair loss/have you noticed any benefits with it?

Obviously, we are all waiting on the blood tests to confirm whether this actually does what it says, but curious to know your experience with it?

----------


## tmw

> Yes but it also states 'email for availability', so if you email them they'll be able to ship you the 1mg fin.


 Im interested on fin 1mg...what brand do they send? what's the cost?
thank you

----------


## JulioGP

> Hi Guys, Just want to share something. When I upgraded my intake to 2 capsules a day I noticed the fatigue factor plus I had some pain in my right testicle. However when I went back to my original dose which is one capsule a day before bedtime the sides disappeared gradually. It took one day for the fatigue and 3 days for the testicle pain to diminish. Hope this helps.


 HARIRI,

After you start the 2 capsules, how many days did you start to feel pain in the testicles?

Another thing, your DHT is above 1600? Because if not, not worth administering 2 capsules without knowing which lane is the DHT.

I say this because if you keep your DHT within the recommended range (350-750) there is no need to take 2 capsules.
Look here:



Otherwise, the results showed that the tested individuals DHT drastically reduced with 2 capsules. 
Look:


These patients had high DHT, but it might not be your case. So, in your case (maybe with the DHT not so high) taking 2 capsules could reduce overly DHT.

----------


## HARIRI

> HARIRI,
> 
> After you start the 2 capsules, how many days did you start to feel pain in the testicles?
> 
> Another thing, your DHT is above 1600? Because if not, not worth administering 2 capsules without knowing which lane is the DHT.
> 
> I say this because if you keep your DHT within the recommended range (350-750) there is no need to take 2 capsules.
> Look here:
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the advice. I felt the right testicle pain after one week of upgrading. I was freaked out with it. Thankfully it disappeared once I went back to one capsule a day. 

My friend had some fatigue sides with taking one capsule only but in the morning, when he followed my advice by taking it in the evening before bedtime the fatigue side has completely gone :-)

----------


## HARIRI

> Hariri, how aggressive is your hair loss/have you noticed any benefits with it?


 It really reduced my hair loss, I used to see around 20 hairs in the sink every morning now I barely can see more than 10 and sometimes 5 when I oil my hair before shampooing. Also I feel my hair thicker and more manageable when styling. It really works but not like FIN of course, FIN made me wonders with only 3 months but unfortunately it gave me sexual sides :-(

----------


## Jcm800

Sigh - dont know whether to try this, or roll the dice with Fin..

----------


## Cob984

i suggest fin for a few weeks but dont foolishly persist inspite of bad sides, if sides are bad get off and get on this

----------


## Jcm800

Thats my issue with fin tho - if you decide to stop it - you potentially can 'crash', seems to me if you start it - you're better of carrying on, and riding out the sides if possible? Cos many guys seem to get off it, and then pay a heavy price after.

----------


## JulioGP

I'm going for almost 10 days with one capsule daily in the morning (~ 8:30 am) and so far nothing of fatigue, keep training hard in the gym.

I have a different opinion when comparing Kératene with Finasteride and if the product meets all the studies showed that, in my opinion the Kératene proves superior to finasteride this because it is a specific product for baldness and not for the prostate. Another advantage are the indications according to the DHT each and undoubtedly the retarding effect and not 5AR inhibitor.

Finasteride cause side also because messing with neurosteroids since it inibie the 5AR, something still little studied and that Merck had apparently not made ​​proper studies (perhaps not to her advantage in a commercial sense).

If this product can lower my DHT levels acceptable to keep the hair without altering testosterone levels and give me side effects, will certainly be the best medicine oral ever released in the market.  :Big Grin:

----------


## AAsuited

Just upgrading, Yesterday I run VERY complete "clean"(not taking anything) blood tests and today I started the treatment.Will take Kératene 1 cap/day and run new blood tests in one month to see the results.

This is the ONLY way to check any changes in little time, since like any oral product that acts reducing serical DHT (like fina/duta), it take months to see visible results.And not just for that, but for several reasons, I reinforce the recommendation of the blood tests before/after treatment for everyone!

And agree with Julio, let's see the blood results in some time, if it is at least close to the studies, without the bag of S*** that comes with the fina results, it's a new era :-)

----------


## Californication

^Curious as to why you chose 1 capsule a day? Is it because it falls in the range where they suggest 1 capsule a day? In the studies, they used two capsules.

Also, JulioGP, in my experience, the 'safe range of DHT' as Keratene advertises isn't really known. The lower the better for hair loss, but just because you're in their range, doesn't mean you're all right.

----------


## AAsuited

> ^Curious as to why you chose 1 capsule a day? Is it because it falls in the range where they suggest 1 capsule a day? In the studies, they used two capsules.
> 
> Also, JulioGP, in my experience, the 'safe range of DHT' as Keratene advertises isn't really known. The lower the better for hair loss, but just because you're in their range, doesn't mean you're all right.


 Mostly yes, I'm in their range, and if you see, they only recommend 2 capsules in very high DHT levels, more 1673 pg/ml!!! Besides that, I wan't to check the effects and results with one capsule, and, considering it's a new product, if i get the results with one capsule, there's no meaning upgrading to two.

The safe range Californication, it's not from Kératene, but from medicine man!!!
DHT is an important hormone, it does have some important rules in your body, so, the point is not to get to totally zero level, but to reduce enough to get the benefits without risk your overall wealth (just to give you some dates, it varies from country to country, but minimal levels of DHT around 250 pg/ml are +/- the recommend)

----------


## Californication

> Mostly yes, I'm in their range, and if you see, they only recommend 2 capsules in very high DHT levels, more 1673 pg/ml!!! Besides that, I wan't to check the effects and results with one capsule, and, considering it's a new product, if i get the results with one capsule, there's no meaning upgrading to two.
> 
> The safe range Californication, it's not from Kératene, but from medicine man!!!
> DHT is an important hormone, it does have some important rules in your body, so, the point is not to get to totally zero level, but to reduce enough to get the benefits without risk your overall wealth (just to give you some dates, it varies from country to country, but minimal levels of DHT around 250 pg/ml are +/- the recommend)


 For your body, yes. I was talking about for hair.

----------


## AAsuited

> For your body, yes. I was talking about for hair.


 
"'safe range of DHT' as Keratene advertises isn't really known"

Sorry buddy, you was NOT just talking about hair, at least you didn't write this way.... you made an affirmation that's WRONG, in medicine we have parameters, the 'safe range of DHT' that their are talking about is already very well defined, if you go to a lab and get your DHT tested, in your exam will appear your DHT rate and the normal baseline that their consider, that, like I said, varies a little bit from place to place, but even with little variations it's well defined, unlike you said.

About "the lower the better", it's parcially truth.You also have to consider androgenetic receptors, sensibility, etc. But, to get things simples lower DHT levels generally gets better results, but firstly, you have to know your normal DHT without medication, if you have DHT levels of 1950 pg/ml, it's very clear that if you reaches 600 pg/ml you will probably have good results, but, if you already have a normal DHT like 750 pg/ml and showing AA(MLA), You will probable have to consider other factors and will want to get lower levels them the 600 pg/ml of the first case.....
But, whatever is your "normal" DHT level, stay in the biologically normal DHT level/range, wathever oral DHT reducer (Kératene,fina,duta) you are using is important....The difference is that Kératene is explaining this in their studies, making effort to adjust posology to each individual, what is a basic thing when you are putting in the market a product that deal with hormone levels....Merck just said "wathever is your age or situation, take 1mg of finasteride, be happy, and not bad will happen, don't worry" :-)

----------


## UK_

Replicel have already gained a major investor/distribution channel - we might be on for a 2015 release afterall!!!!

(Dont know why im posting this here).

----------


## JulioGP

In my opinion it is prudent to initiate K&#233;ratene with just one capsule a day and check the blood tests. Start with 2 capsules already sounds absurd, like a person who never took Finasteride instead of starting with 1mg, already start with 5mg.

Of course everyone does that fit with your own body.

In the tests shown by the manufacturer, with 2 capsules a day many patients had reduction of about 75&#37; DHT. If I were to consider this reduction to my current DHT, would:
clean base of 723 to 180 would be DHT DHT (extremely low)
last base still with Saw Palmetto. 908 of 227 in DHT would be (still low)

Californication, in my opinion it is not only REDUCE the DHT, but keep it in a safe range. Download extremely DHT would worry more about the hair than with the health (of course that many only care about the hair, but it is not my case). There are people who want to lower your DHT to 100, that to me is the same as sexual castration. What good is trying to bring the hair back and not have sex life? No, thank you. 

The K&#233;ratene went further and even suggests an ideal range to keep the DHT. So I'll do the test with only 1 capsule and reduce to a level that I would consider acceptable, ie, somewhere between this range of 350 and 750.

That's all we're talking about standard follicle sensitivity to DHT. Each individual has a different sensibility, because if not it could be said that every individual who has hair, has a low DHT and this is not true.

If you check the subjects studied by the manufacturer will see that they were all bald. Seeing this way, I believe the K&#233;ratene was based on a pattern of follicular sensitivity those bald guys that were studied.

----------


## Jcm800

Doke - how's this stuff for you mate? You must have been on it a couple of month's now? What's happening dude??

HARIRI - how are you finding things as well please?

----------


## Californication

> Doke - how's this stuff for you mate? You must have been on it a couple of month's now? What's happening dude??
> 
> HARIRI - how are you finding things as well please?


 I've also been on this since April 1st pretty much, mostly on 2 capsules a day. I was on fin until first week of March where I tapered off.

Hair was doing great on fin. Seemed fine immediately after for a while, but then of course, the shedding started as expected. Hopped on Keratene, shedding continued at what seems like the same rate to me, tons of shedding mainly when I sleep/shower/apply rogaine foam. 

Hair has gotten considerably worse in the crown area and weaker points across the hairline that were barely noticeable on fin are now pretty apparent to me. So yeah, anecedotally I would say this has not worked. I attempted to get a blood test before getting on it, but doctor ordered the wrong one. Got another blood test last week and doctor is trying to find a place that tests DHT to get some results. I might get off it after my supply runs out at the end of this month, get another blood test, and reassess. 

But my experience, unfortunately, has not been a very good one as of yet.

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks for your update Californication, fingers crossed that this stuff kicks in soon for you. It's a shame about your bloods. Obvious answer to my next Q no doubt, but why did you quit fin? Sounds like it was doing  the trick hair wise? Thanks.

----------


## jo5555

Hey guys,

I've been a BTT 'passive' member for a while and decided it's time to share my KaR experience ;-) Currently, I'm only using KaR (never used minox, propecia, fin, ...etc). I did try the new product from Loreal when it was release which brought some density but after a month off it was a disaster... Also tried lots of natural stuff but nothing really worked so I decided to give KaR a shot.

I'm taking it (1caps/day) since 3 months (started more or less at the same time as HARIRI) and so far the only good side is my scalp doesn't itch anymore. Also, my hair loss is pretty stable since two weeks.

I'd a massive shedding from 3 weeks after I started till maybe one or 2 weeks ago so I hope I will get back what I've lost the last months... I will definitely continue for 3 more months to see how it goes.

Beside the fatigue during the 1st month, I've absolutely no sides.

Cheers

----------


## Californication

Gyno/puffy nipples/excess chest fat/some side fat.

I could deal with a lower libido somewhat, especially since studies show fin side effects do tend to dissipate over time sometimes, but gyno is one of the few sides that just gets worse unforunately.

My experience was anecdotal, while my hair has for a fact gotten worse on KAr, the true test to see whether the product does what it says is blood tests and that's why I'm eager to see some of those (we have a couple guys here who have gotten preliminary tests done I believe, so hopefully those are updated in the next month)

----------


## Jcm800

> Gyno/puffy nipples/excess chest fat/some side fat.
> 
> I could deal with a lower libido somewhat, especially since studies show fin side effects do tend to dissipate over time sometimes, but gyno is one of the few sides that just gets worse unforunately.
> 
> My experience was anecdotal, while my hair has for a fact gotten worse on KAr, the true test to see whether the product does what it says is blood tests and that's why I'm eager to see some of those (we have a couple guys here who have gotten preliminary tests done I believe, so hopefully those are updated in the next month)


 Damn sides. Yeah gyno is one I'd fear too, keep contemplating fin, but it is such a gamble. 

I'm keenly awaiting the blood results of those intrepid users as well, I'm really grateful - they'll help me decide whether to order or not and many others.

----------


## JulioGP

10 days on Kératene. 

So far no side effects or fatigue or anything. Continue with 1 capsule, only started taking evening by practicality, because my work is not very easy to take capsules.

Anxious to do the blood test at 15 days.

----------


## Jcm800

> 10 days on Kératene. 
> 
> So far no side effects or fatigue or anything. Continue with 1 capsule, only started taking evening by practicality, because my work is not very easy to take capsules.
> 
> Anxious to do the blood test at 15 days.


 Thanks man, looking forward to seeing how your bloods come out, hopefully some differences will be observed.

----------


## Cob984

I am religiously using the topicals every alternate day with the capsules 1x/day around 5 times a week, my hair is thinning badly, all the initial promise is long gone, and the sides of fat, shrinkage etc continue, either this treatment sucks or my baldness is out of control

i cant wait to get on RU, i pray it works

----------


## clandestine

Cob stop Keratene jesus ******.

If you're experiencing shrinkage, get off it.

----------


## Cob984

Lol im just waiting for my RU to arrive and the shrinkage has been reversible so far, i tried getting off the keratene for a few days and somehow my hair got much worse so im holding out till RU shows

----------


## HARIRI

> Lol im just waiting for my RU to arrive and the shrinkage has been reversible so far, i tried getting off the keratene for a few days and somehow my hair got much worse so im holding out till RU shows


 COB984, Which RU will you use? Is it the mpbtreatments.com one? Which strength will it be 1&#37; or 2% or 5%?

----------


## UK_

> Lol im just waiting for my RU to arrive and the shrinkage has been reversible so far, i tried getting off the keratene for a few days and somehow my hair got much worse so im holding out till RU shows


 Cob if you're having problems with K.A.R then RU will likely cause you the same issues - given the fact that it works in the same way Finasteride does.

----------


## Cob984

?? ru doesnt reduce dht? what are you talking about, also i will start slow, if sides are bad ill move to CB
Also, Kar is causing me problems w.o results, i mean if my hair stopped thinning then maybe i would just accept sides and move on, but if my hair is worsening and im struggling with sides i really see no point in this.

And hariri, i ordered from kane and will make my own 2&#37; solution to begin with

----------


## HARIRI

cob984, I heard from an active caller to Bald Truth show last Tuesday that if you get sides from FIN, you will get sides from RU. He is an expert guy and have been doing his mixes long time ago. You can to this link and listen to the show NOW http://www.thebaldtruth.com/watch-live/ . However Im strong believer in CB. I think its somehow the real alternative to FIN :-)

----------


## Cob984

I dont agree, maybe i will get sides 50-100mg, but im sure i can find a body tolerance at a lower dose,
there are plenty of people who moved over from fin to RU to avoid sides, esp on HLH and even staythick and clandestine here itself on BTT, albeit at lower doses than 50, 

Also, im keen to avoid the fatigue and the weight gain sides in particular, if i can avoid those on RU i dont really care about a lower libido, ill just take cialis or viagra or whatever

----------


## ryan555

Why don't you guys get blood tests before dumping treatments????  There is no way to declare that a treatment doesn't work unless a) you've been on it 6 or even 12 months without results, or b) you get your blood tested and there is no change in DHT levels.

----------


## ryan555

Cob, I saw on another forum where you posted that you were in the trials for this product and were happy with the experience and that it did lower your DHT.  What changed?

----------


## Jcm800

Anything new on this front?

----------


## hugo

I have received my DHT blood test results. Details and background are:

Used proscar daily since 2009 with good results. My hair loss stop after the initial shock loss. Only sides were loss of morning erection. However due to my age not really that important to me.
Stopped proscar and switched to Keratene Retard on 28 March 2013. Reason - prefer more natural based medicine. I am taking the prescribes dosage of two tablets in the morning and two tablets in the evening. 
Stupidly I have not done a DHT test prior to the switch but my hair loss stopped 100% with proscar, so DHT range must have been reduced to low.
Done DHT blood test on 11 May 2013, nearly six weeks since switch date.
Results are 1.3 nmol/l (normal rage is 0.7 to 5.4). To compare against the Keratene results table I have converted the result to pg/ml. This came to 219.96 which is below the DHT threshold as per the Keratene results table.
What do I think - pretty good result and in line with the Keratene research. No sides and morning erection returned. However,  still get a bit nervous when I see one or three hairs in the wash basin in the morning. This was probably true whilst using proscar but did not notice it as I trusted proscar 100 % and still do to prevent hair loss. But given the test result I will stay with Keratene.
Hopefully more and more members will have the same results as me and a whole body of encouraging results can be compiled so that everyone can use the product with the same confidence as proscar.

----------


## Cob984

damn, thats a low dht, and btw its 1 tab in the morning and 1 in the evening, ur megadosing on that stuff, if someone who has sides on proscar took kar in ur dosages they would have the exact same sides

----------


## HARIRI

Hugo, Please do not play with the dosage. Its one capsule in the morning and one capsule in the evening. Its very clear and written on the bottle and the covering bag. Please reduce your intake to the recommended dosage and then inform us your findings. Thank you.

----------


## Jcm800

Hmm, even tho he's mega dosing, it seems to be having the desired effect? Tempted to try this as a last resort - after that it's fin or give up for me.

----------


## GuyFromUK

> I have received my DHT blood test results. Details and background are:
> 
> Used proscar daily since 2009 with good results. My hair loss stop after the initial shock loss. Only sides were loss of morning erection. However due to my age not really that important to me.
> Stopped proscar and switched to Keratene Retard on 28 March 2013. Reason - prefer more natural based medicine. I am taking the prescribes dosage of two tablets in the morning and two tablets in the evening. 
> Stupidly I have not done a DHT test prior to the switch but my hair loss stopped 100% with proscar, so DHT range must have been reduced to low.
> Done DHT blood test on 11 May 2013, nearly six weeks since switch date.
> Results are 1.3 nmol/l (normal rage is 0.7 to 5.4). To compare against the Keratene results table I have converted the result to pg/ml. This came to 219.96 which is below the DHT threshold as per the Keratene results table.
> What do I think - pretty good result and in line with the Keratene research. No sides and morning erection returned. However,  still get a bit nervous when I see one or three hairs in the wash basin in the morning. This was probably true whilst using proscar but did not notice it as I trusted proscar 100 % and still do to prevent hair loss. But given the test result I will stay with Keratene.
> Hopefully more and more members will have the same results as me and a whole body of encouraging results can be compiled so that everyone can use the product with the same confidence as proscar.


 

Hugo - this post is really interesting. I am in a similar position to you and I am considering dropping propecia and starting KAR. Please keep us updated with your progress on KAR and let us know if your hair deteriorates. Did you notice any other changes with your body when you came off proscar and started KAR? When I started on propecia my skin improved massively and my spots went. Do you think my skin will deteriorate again if I come off propecia and start KAR? Are you going to test your DHT levels again at any point in the future?

----------


## UK_

> Hugo - this post is really interesting. I am in a similar position to you and I am considering dropping propecia and starting KAR. Please keep us updated with your progress on KAR and let us know if your hair deteriorates. Did you notice any other changes with your body when you came off proscar and started KAR? When I started on propecia my skin improved massively and my spots went. Do you think my skin will deteriorate again if I come off propecia and start KAR? Are you going to test your DHT levels again at any point in the future?


 Sure you wanna risk all your gains on what appears to be beta-sisterol?

----------


## ryan555

> Sure you wanna risk all your gains on what appears to be beta-sisterol?


 If it keeps your DHT low and that can be confirmed with blood tests, then who cares if its beta sitosterol?

----------


## Jcm800

> If it keeps your DHT low and that can be confirmed with blood tests, then who cares if its beta sitosterol?


 Good point, I don't care if it's crocodile piss in a capsule - if it does the job required.

----------


## UK_

> If it keeps your DHT low and that can be confirmed with blood tests, then who cares if its beta sitosterol?


 Why not just get some generic beta-sisterol?  I tried it before (beta-sis) but theres no way I could compare my results to what I experienced with finasteride.

----------


## Jcm800

> Why not just get some generic beta-sisterol?  I tried it before (beta-sis) but theres no way I could compare my results to what I experienced with finasteride.


 The results you received from your previous time on Fin were that good that you'd risk sides again UK yeah? Correct me if I'm wrong dude but you haven't recovered from your first time around have you? Just going by previous chats, I stand corrected if I'm mistaken.

----------


## UK_

> The results you received from your previous time on Fin were that good that you'd risk sides again UK yeah? Correct me if I'm wrong dude but you haven't recovered from your first time around have you? Just going by previous chats, I stand corrected if I'm mistaken.


 This time I will take it twice a week and lower my dose:

http://www.jle.com/fr/revues/agro_bi.../87/article.md

----------


## Jcm800

> This time I will take it twice a week and lower my dose:
> 
> http://www.jle.com/fr/revues/agro_bi.../87/article.md


 Going to follow Desmonds suggestion, 0.25 yeah?

----------


## ajays

Julio,

Any update on your tests? Thanks!




> 10 days on Kératene. 
> 
> So far no side effects or fatigue or anything. Continue with 1 capsule, only started taking evening by practicality, because my work is not very easy to take capsules.
> 
> Anxious to do the blood test at 15 days.

----------


## JulioGP

> Julio,
> 
> Any update on your tests? Thanks!


 I will take the exams on the 17th. After that it should take about 7 more days to leave the complete result. So far, no side effects.  :Smile:

----------


## thechamp

http://www.hairlossbuddha.com/finast...o-reduce-them/

----------


## GuyFromUK

Any updates from anyone on how they are getting on with product, or on their test results?

----------


## ryan555

> Any updates from anyone on how they are getting on with product, or on their test results?


 I had a delay in receiving and starting my pills.  I'll get my blood tested shortly and report back.

----------


## JulioGP

I did my blood test this morning, at the same time I've always done. 

Only left out and put the result here. So far no side effects noticeable.  :Big Grin:

----------


## ajays

Nice !! Are you taking 1x/day or 2x/day?




> I did my blood test this morning, at the same time I've always done. 
> 
> Only left out and put the result here. So far no side effects noticeable.

----------


## ajays

Hi Guys,

Need some feedback. Did any of guys experience a shed while on Fin or currently on Keratene? I have been on Keratene for 4 months and experiencing a shed for past 2 months (i am not using Minox). The shed is mostly small or medium size weak hairs and only happens when I am in the shower. I think I see about 10-15 hairs in my hands at that time. I feel my hair is getting better with Keratene, but just wanted to check if this shed is a sign of more improvements to come and not something to be concerned about.

- Did anyone experience similar shed?  
- If yes, how long did it last?
- Did your hair diffusion get worse before it got better?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

----------


## HARIRI

> Nice !! Are you taking 1x/day or 2x/day?


 He mentioned earlier that he is taking it 1x/day. Im taking the same dose too. How about ajays?  :Big Grin:

----------


## ajays

Hariri,

I am currently on 1x/day.





> He mentioned earlier that he is taking it 1x/day. Im taking the same dose too. How about ajays?

----------


## shredder

hi ajays,

I am now using 2 capsules/day.

I started with 1/day on March 10, 2013.
After three weeks increased the dose to 1/day + another 1 every other day.
Since the beginning of May I am now on 2/day.

My shedding is similar to what you describe. As for an overall improvement or worsening, I honestly couldn't say...

Probably the only way I can contribute to the discussion (since I was stupid enough not to have my DHT levels tested) is by stating that I don't have any sides worth mentioning. No fatigue, no brain fog, and certainly no erectile problems (maybe very very very very minor libido reduction - but nothing compared to what I experienced under finasteride). I also had very minor groin discomfort (see my previous posts) some weeks ago, but it only lasted 2-3 days. And I noticed a weight gain of about 1.5 kg (which - considering that I now weigh 64 kg with a body height of 175 cm - isn't a concern for me).

So...if Keratene doesn't help, at least it doesn't do any noticable damage  :Wink: 





> Hi Guys,
> 
> Need some feedback. Did any of guys experience a shed while on Fin or currently on Keratene? I have been on Keratene for 4 months and experiencing a shed for past 2 months (i am not using Minox). The shed is mostly small or medium size weak hairs and only happens when I am in the shower. I think I see about 10-15 hairs in my hands at that time. I feel my hair is getting better with Keratene, but just wanted to check if this shed is a sign of more improvements to come and not something to be concerned about.
> 
> - Did anyone experience similar shed?  
> - If yes, how long did it last?
> - Did your hair diffusion get worse before it got better?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your feedback.

----------


## JulioGP

> Nice !! Are you taking 1x/day or 2x/day?


 Ajays,

My DHT is just over 900. I am taking as the instructions on the label of one capsule.

Personally, I have not had any side effects so far, at least not noticeable.

I had a shedding similar to yours.

Nor had gained weight and I'm going to the gym every day (as I did in the last 16 years) and not felt strength reduction.

There are some days we are more tired, but this is natural and not blame the K&#233;ratene so, because some days I am 100&#37; again. If it was the drug that would last.

Now wait anxiously for the results of my blood test.
 :Smile:

----------


## Jairus

Julio

Any idea when you will get the results of the blood test?

Cheers bosco

----------


## ryan555

I found two studies on this stuff.  One was performed by the company on only 31 male patients, but all had pretty dramatic drops in DHT.  The other was done by Prohairclinic in partnership with a legitimate university in Belgium and showed a more conservative drop but it was universal to all male subjects (ranging from 5% to 57% reduction, average 25%, after one week on 1 capsule a day).  Either this product works or these people are perpetrating a very sophisticated fraud.

----------


## Jcm800

Yeah i'm wondering if its a sophisticated fraud, i haven't pulled the trigger and ordered simply as i have my doubt's (like us all i guess) Be interesting indeed for independent blood scores to be revealed..

----------


## JulioGP

> Julio
> 
> Any idea when you will get the results of the blood test?
> 
> Cheers bosco


 Jairus,

I think next week are all ready. I'm looking on the internet daily. As you leave I will post here.

----------


## GuyFromUK

> I found two studies on this stuff.  One was performed by the company on only 31 male patients, but all had pretty dramatic drops in DHT.  The other was done by Prohairclinic in partnership with a legitimate university in Belgium and showed a more conservative drop but it was universal to all male subjects (ranging from 5% to 57% reduction, average 25%, after one week on 1 capsule a day).  Either this product works or these people are perpetrating a very sophisticated fraud.


 
If you are correct and Keratene reduces DHT by a small amount, but not as much as propecia, then it might be a good medication to use for people who want to come off of propecia but who are scared of getting Post-Finasteride Syndrome.

A lot of people on the propecia side-effect forums believe that when you come off propecia your DHT levels rise sharply and your testosterone drops, resulting in a crash to your system.

If Keratene can be proven to reduce DHT by a small amount, that is less than propecia does, then it could be used as a stepping-stone for people looking to come off propecia. I.e. you stop taking propecia and start taking Keratene for several months, your DHT levels then rise but not rise too much all at once. After a few months you then come off the keratene and let your DHT levels rise a little bit further back to their normal levels.

This might all be a load of crap that I am speaking, but it is an interesting theory. I for one  have always thought to myself "if a cure for baldness comes out and I no longer need to take propecia, would I be best staying on propecia so as to avoid any possibility of getting post-finasteride syndrome?". I am sure there must be other guys thinking the same thing.

Any thoughts on this?

----------


## ajays

Julio,

I think the whole world is eagerly waiting for your results. No pressure buddy  :Smile: 




> Jairus,
> 
> I think next week are all ready. I'm looking on the internet daily. As you leave I will post here.

----------


## ryan555

> If you are correct and Keratene reduces DHT by a small amount, but not as much as propecia, then it might be a good medication to use for people who want to come off of propecia but who are scared of getting Post-Finasteride Syndrome.
> 
> A lot of people on the propecia side-effect forums believe that when you come off propecia your DHT levels rise sharply and your testosterone drops, resulting in a crash to your system.
> 
> If Keratene can be proven to reduce DHT by a small amount, that is less than propecia does, then it could be used as a stepping-stone for people looking to come off propecia. I.e. you stop taking propecia and start taking Keratene for several months, your DHT levels then rise but not rise too much all at once. After a few months you then come off the keratene and let your DHT levels rise a little bit further back to their normal levels.
> 
> This might all be a load of crap that I am speaking, but it is an interesting theory. I for one  have always thought to myself "if a cure for baldness comes out and I no longer need to take propecia, would I be best staying on propecia so as to avoid any possibility of getting post-finasteride syndrome?". I am sure there must be other guys thinking the same thing.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?


 Why wouldn't you just taper yourself off Propecia if you're that worried about it?

----------


## JulioGP

> Julio,
> 
> I think the whole world is eagerly waiting for your results. No pressure buddy


 Ajays,

I'm also curious. I bought a quantity for 4 months of treatment (taking one capsule per day) and depending on the outcome, or I'll stay with 1 capsule daily, move to 2 capsules daily or interrupt treatment for lack of efficacy.

I really want the Kératene is efficient, otherwise for my case, there will not be any oral anti-dht that has not given me any side effects.

I have my fingers crossed.

----------


## Jcm800

Cob what's happening, is this stuff helping you or what? Don't understand, you claim sides, so assume that something is happening?

----------


## thechamp

Cob why don't you get on fin amd a estrogen blocker???

----------


## Dees Dab

Thanks for all your feedback guys, Other than DHT anf T, what other markers should be checked on the blood test? I'm looking for a lab in my area.

----------


## clandestine

> Cob why don't you get on fin amd a estrogen blocker???


 Because that would be stupid of him.

----------


## PrimeR

> Thanks for all your feedback guys, Other than DHT anf T, what other markers should be checked on the blood test? I'm looking for a lab in my area.


 Still doing my homework on this, but thus far I've seen the following frequently mentioned:

LH (luteneizing hormone)
FSH (follicle stimulating hormone)
Estrogen
Prolactin 
SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)

----------


## Jcm800

Has anyone noticed ANY benefits yet? Some of you have been on it since Jan haven't you?

----------


## thechamp

> Because that would be stupid of him.


 Why is that stupid lots of people do this

----------


## Jcm800

Any new in this corner? It's suspiciously quiet..

----------


## clandestine

> Why is that stupid lots of people do this


 Why is taking an anti-estradiol to combat side effects experienced by your anti-androgen medication stupid you're asking?

You're asking me why taking medication for side effects experienced on your medication is stupid?

----------


## Cob984

Iv dumped keratene, both the pills and topicals,
I use RU now at 2&#37;, i still have sides on RU - shrinkage remains i guess just gota accept ti now, weight gain is there but less than KAR, no brain fog and no fatigue which is awesome,
Hair the verdict is still out

I also started using neogenic, i also use topical cetirizine now, right now im going thro a shed, from what i dont know, but i notice neogenic really gets that shed going, sticking with this for now, will report in a few weeks

Also have CB on the way from kane, will use 1% solution in KB, 

laters

----------


## JulioGP

I've used the Neogenic at launch for 3 months and not getting any results, much mention the amount of hair number that he claimed. Unfortunately not know anyone who has had results with it.

Friend, I think you using so many products at the same time, if you have any result will be difficult to measure where it came from.

Anyway good luck on your treatment.

I think if someone is willing to lower the estrogen can try some Grapeseed Extract.

----------


## ryan555

Cob - what sides did you have on KAR?

----------


## clandestine

Sorry but this needs to be addressed.

Cob; how much smaller is your penis since taking these medications? How severe is the shrinkage? Can you maintain an erection? How is your libido? 

Also, why do you refuse to discontinue using these meds if you're experiencing something as severe as penis shrinking?

Cheers.

----------


## Cob984

i dont wanna go bald?? i have decent hair and, my hair is a huge huge part of me, and im not in a relationship,
Its not really shorter, maybe 0.2 - 0.3 shorter, its just thinner, so it shrinks in diameter

lbido is lower , a lot lower with ru than it is with kar to be honest, for erections i use cialis, i havent had sex since i started using RU a week ago so i dunno till i try how bad it is

----------


## Cob984

> Cob - what sides did you have on KAR?


 Fatigue, brain fog minor, weight gain, loss of muscle, Shrinkage (penis)

----------


## ryan555

I have news for you guys using RU - everything you put on your head goes into your bloodstream.  I tried putting crushed finasteride on my head (mixed with WATER, not even a carrying agent) and it lowered my serum DHT almost as much as oral finasteride.  Putting a powerful, gray market anti androgen into your body through your scalp is nuts for someone concerned about side effects from much milder meds like finasteride and keratene.

----------


## clandestine

ryan; a person would be deluding themselves if they held the idea that RU does not go systemic.

The reason I've experienced gyne sides on RU is because some amount goes into the bloodstream. This, is also why I use such a low dosage, 10mg, as for me it is tolerable.

----------


## clandestine

> i dont wanna go bald?? i have decent hair and, my hair is a huge huge part of me, and im not in a relationship,
> Its not really shorter, maybe 0.2 - 0.3 shorter, its just thinner, so it shrinks in diameter
> 
> lbido is lower , a lot lower with ru than it is with kar to be honest, for erections i use cialis, i havent had sex since i started using RU a week ago so i dunno till i try how bad it is


 Bald ain't so bad brah.

Better than dickbreak, IMHO. I shave my head, and my tackle is all in order for me to use with my gf.

----------


## Cob984

Its not dickbreak dude, i can still get it up,

And i am under no illusion that ru does not go systemic, thats why i also use a low dose
But Kar was intolerable for me, not to mention my hair wasnt exactly improving on it

----------


## clandestine

> Its not dickbreak dude, i can still get it up,
> 
> And i am under no illusion that ru does not go systemic, thats why i also use a low dose
> But Kar was intolerable for me, not to mention my hair wasnt exactly improving on it


 Ai. How long were you on Kar for? 

I know you likely realize to gauge effectiveness of a medication you must trial it for at least 12 months, give or take.

----------


## Cob984

6 months

----------


## Jcm800

I'm in two minds, try this or fin 0.25 twice per week, getting desperate, wasted too long on trx2, what a big error of judgement that was on my part.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> Iv dumped keratene, both the pills and topicals,
> I use RU now at 2%, i still have sides on RU - shrinkage remains i guess just gota accept ti now, weight gain is there but less than KAR, no brain fog and no fatigue which is awesome,
> Hair the verdict is still out
> 
> I also started using neogenic, i also use topical cetirizine now, right now im going thro a shed, from what i dont know, but i notice neogenic really gets that shed going, sticking with this for now, will report in a few weeks
> 
> Also have CB on the way from kane, will use 1% solution in KB, 
> 
> laters


 how old are you and how bad is your hairloss?

----------


## Cob984

25, very aggressive, right now i still have my hair and iv tried my ass off inspite of being androgen sensitive, baldness runs rampant on my mothers side, my 2 cousins on that side of the family who did nothing are pretty much baldies and they are younger than me

And jcm whats wrong with you bro, ur still ****ing whining about trx2? get ur act together and buy something, ur indecisiveness is ridiculous

----------


## Jcm800

My indecision? Least I tried it for over a year, you however try everything randomly, don't knock me for pondering a potentially life changing decision ok.

----------


## Cob984

hey man not knocking you, i just want you to try a real treatment thats all, if i remained on trx2 only for 1 year i would be slick bald, you are blessed to have a much slower mpb, so make use of it

----------


## Jcm800

> hey man not knocking you, i jus want u to try a real treatment thats  all, if i remained on trx2 only for 1 year i would be slick bald, you are blessed to have a much slower mpb, so make use of it


 Ok cob, I'll retract my claws, just felt you were having a pop at me. 

You're right in as much that I've been cursed with mpb, but blessed it's a slow occurrence, it's showing now tho. 

Trx2 is a non treatment, I can safely say that now, its down to me to try a real treatment, hence I'm 'whining' n trying to establish if Kar is worth trying or not .

----------


## clandestine

JCM just try Kar if you're not willing to get on fin.

Actually though, go on their website and order some right now, just commit.

----------


## Jcm800

Ordered some damn it, got that gut feeling I had ordering trx2, we shall see.

----------


## clandestine

Trx2 was a terrible error in judgement on your part to be honest, and I'm not trying to be rude, it just was.

When the question is: TRX2?, and the thread has tens of thousands of posts with no tangible result, the answer is: No.

Good for you on committing to ordering, and remember constancy and consistency of use is paramount in gauging results. If you'd like some reassurance, read up on Keratene's clinical trials.

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks clandestine, yeah was a terrible error of judgement, I don't deny that.

I'll follow this new regime religiously, for at least six months, no idea what my blood levels are, so shall take one capsule daily and hope for the best.

----------


## clandestine

I would strongly recommend you start a log.
Take pictures of baseline front, middle, back, and do the same every 2 months, same lighting, room, time of day.

Cheers.

----------


## Jcm800

I'll be monitoring things naturally, I've got a morbid fear of even looking at my crown area, haven't even seen it for at least 5 year's, but pics of front and vertex I'll log. I don't expect miracles with this, still awaiting other users bloods, that'll give an idea of whether I've just wasted another &#163;110..

----------


## deuce

Anyone like this stuff.  I am thinking about ordering some.  I looked on the website and maybe I overlooked it, but I did not see anything bout people guaranteeing no sides.  How do people know it is safer than Fin?  Not trying to knock the product because I really want to try it.  Im just a little iffy from ordering something overseas to put in my body everyday.  I hope its safe.  please someone reassure me.

----------


## Jcm800

deuce, what other options are there? Not many at all, I hear what you're saying I'm not keen on taking there word for it, but then again I'm not keen on taking Mercks word for it either.

----------


## Jcm800

Whats the delivery timeframe with these people? Anyone ordered it from the UK here at all?

----------


## JulioGP

My friends,

I have good news and bad news. The good news is that my exams left.
Everyone knows here that I never had an interest in promoting any product, let alone pass a false impression in the use of these, then, I expose the test conducted by me, but do not discount the possibility of a user have different results, even finding it difficult to happen, because it is a clinical examination.

I will contact the company to find out what might have happened.

I used the K&#233;ratene for 26 days(and I'm still using), 1 capsule daily. In the 1st week wore morning and from 2nd week, for convenience, I use it at night before bed.
On the 26th day, I made an examination that included testosterone and DHT and with the same sample, which was ordered held separate consideration only the DHT (to make sure the blood test). Exactly, two tests were made to not have bugs! The laboratory is reputable, trust fully.
Here are my results:




The change in testosterone for more possibly has an explanation. I was consuming almost 1 Liter Soy Milk and this consumption was suspended about 1 month prior to this test, ie, as the sole milk is rich in isoflavone and I have eliminated their consumption probably rose because my Testosterone to it (said by endocrinologist and I agree).

As I said before, I did not have any side effect, something kind of obvious because I did not have any change of DHT, incidentally, came well risen slightly but this change is considered normal.

Simply the product did not work, no change in DHT levels, very strange considering the many studies conducted by the company.

So, I await the result of friends (AAsuited and others) who are testing the product.  :Frown:

----------


## ryan555

That sucks that it didn't work.  I find it very suspect that every single person in their study supposedly had results but no one seems to actually be able to reproduce such a result.  I will be posting my results soon.  I know for a fact that finasteride had a drastic effect on my DHT so if this doesn't move the needle, I'm calling it a very elaborate scam.

----------


## ryan555

Also, Julio, did you take the blood at exactly the same time of day for each test?

----------


## clandestine

Very interesting.

I would email them the same you've posted here. I would be extremely interested in hearing their comments.

----------


## JulioGP

> Also, Julio, did you take the blood at exactly the same time of day for each test?


 Yes, as I said earlier, I always do my blood tests between 7 and 8am and always fasting.

----------


## ryan555

In the independent study conducted by Prohairclinic, the results were a drop in DHT ranging from 5% to 57%.  I suppose that if you were one who dropped only in the 5% range, that could be difficult to detect given that hormones fluctuate naturally anyway.  The first test hat showed much lower DHT without taking anything does seem strange.

----------


## ryan555

I've also noticed a lot of stuff like this posted on the Internet - new forum members with 0 prior posts coming online to give product testimonials.  This is almost always the company promoting itself, which would never be done if the product were legitimate.  I am really skeptical.

http://www.*****.com/eve/171091-i-al...st2354189.html

----------


## ryan555

Of course it won't allow my link.

----------


## JulioGP

The first test of DHT was done by the time I did not take anything, the base is completely clean. 

The two tests later I had started Saw Palmetto and there was an increase in DHT and decreased testo, which is normal because these changes are dynamics.

I do not consider weird, because what did my DHT was up slightly Saw Palmetto, possibly this download DHT ONLY in the follicle and will left over DHT in the blood. This is entirely feasible if the function Saw Palmetto thus acting in the follicle, because if it were to operate as many studies claim that is, lowering the DHT blood level at least to me from my tests proved that would not work.

I may be those users who got 5&#37; change actually my DHT not reduced or so and is very difficult to know whether, if lowered 5%, would be a normal hormonal changes or by medication.

----------


## JulioGP

> Very interesting.
> 
> I would email them the same you've posted here. I would be extremely interested in hearing their comments.


 I am trying to contact Chat, but I can not. Also I'll be waiting their response by your e-mail.

----------


## StayThick

This product does not work. I'm glad I did not waste a dollar on this scam.

The possibility of lowering DHT without side effects is ridiculous. This product does not lower DHT because it doesn't work, there is no side effects because the product simply does not work

----------


## Jcm800

Oh fck, don't tell me I've just spent &#163;110 on a scam again, I'll go mad  -  I await others blood test intently.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> This product does not work. I'm glad I did not waste a dollar on this scam.
> 
> The possibility of lowering DHT without side effects is ridiculous. This product does not lower DHT because it doesn't work, there is no side effects because the product simply does not work


 Then why was cob getting sides?

----------


## JulioGP

> Then why was cob getting sides?


 He did blood tests? Maybe the side effects have been cause psychological, placebo effect.

----------


## ryan555

> This product does not work. I'm glad I did not waste a dollar on this scam.
> 
> The possibility of lowering DHT without side effects is ridiculous. This product does not lower DHT because it doesn't work, there is no side effects because the product simply does not work


 Well some people did claim to have sides.  And though you could be correct, you should not proclaim any treatment a scam (or a success) if you haven't tried it.  You're just speculating.

----------


## Jcm800

Bart told me himself that no one he has treated face to face at their clinic has reported sides taking this stuff. But also said it's possible as some people react even to vitamins.

----------


## StayThick

> Then why was cob getting sides?


 I like Cob as much as the next guy on here, but even he would admit he has tried many products majority of which he experienced sides with.

He seems very sensitive to anything he takes, especially androgen blockers as Propecia caused many issues with him.

You just don't know if these capsules caused what he's experiencing or other treatments he currently is on.

----------


## Jcm800

Damn I get a bad feeling I've just made a second error of judgement ordering this, fck fck oh fck, please someone have bloods that show changes..

----------


## clandestine

I don't know. I'm not currently on Keratene. I've used it in the past (the serum, not the capsules). I've held an affinity for Keratene as I feel they are a no-bullshit company with a clinical trial backing and some doctor recommendation.

Dr. Arvind being one of its advocates;



> Dear Balki and ven,
> 
> No, I am not paid to post for keratene or propecia or minoxidil or any other hairloss medications.
> I spent years studying the effects of various hairloss medications out of curiosity as well as on patients' requests. Only when I found something working for my patients, I decided to share my experiences with others as I have done over the years.
> 
> As for "conflict of interest", the only conflict of interest for a hair transplant doctor would be any medication slowing down/stopping hairloss and thus doing away with the need for hair transplants. 
> 
> Lets not get into conspiracy theories. 
> Regards,
> ...


 http://www.*************/hair-loss/f...id-110587.html

edit: hair.site

and others;



> As I follow a post made by Dr. Arvind about a new DHT lowering product (Keratene Retard) I have contacted some other Drs. to find out more. 
> I contacted those that attended the FUE Europe Meeting where Keratene Retard was introduced.
> 
> Here are the results so far-
> &#187; *Dr. Arvind* : good product, uses it in his practice.
> &#187; *Dr. Lupanzula* : are familiar with the product, just started to offer.
> &#187; *Dr. Peter Hajduk (ex Gho Praag)* : starting to offer to their patients as of november 2012. Also noted 'so far their clinical studies look very good'.
> &#187; *Dr. Heitmann* : convinced it will work, also offers it.
> &#187; *Prohairclinic* : started offering to our patient, solid clinical study and presentation. They are also conducting their own 'clinical' test at present.
> ...


 http://www.*************/hair-loss/f...id-110587.html

----------


## JulioGP

One of the things that made me buy and have the security of the test was Kératene its clinical trial with patients, even though it was short term, and the product is aimed at people who seem to understand the subject, even where there is specific labeling for who knows what is the value of DHT. But I was surprised by the fact that there has been minimal change in DHT.

Honestly, I could not understand what happened. The only thing I know is that I took the capsules religiously every day and it was done not just one, but two blood tests for confirmation.

----------


## ajays

Hi Julio,

I am unable to see your results. Can you please post them again?

Thanks




> My friends,
> 
> I have good news and bad news. The good news is that my exams left.
> Everyone knows here that I never had an interest in promoting any product, let alone pass a false impression in the use of these, then, I expose the test conducted by me, but do not discount the possibility of a user have different results, even finding it difficult to happen, because it is a clinical examination.
> 
> I will contact the company to find out what might have happened.
> 
> I used the Kératene for 26 days(and I'm still using), 1 capsule daily. In the 1st week wore morning and from 2nd week, for convenience, I use it at night before bed.
> On the 26th day, I made an examination that included testosterone and DHT and with the same sample, which was ordered held separate consideration only the DHT (to make sure the blood test). Exactly, two tests were made to not have bugs! The laboratory is reputable, trust fully.
> ...

----------


## ajays

ryan,

What are your current DHT levels? Also, when are you expecting your new tests to be scheduled/out?

Thnaks




> That sucks that it didn't work.  I find it very suspect that every single person in their study supposedly had results but no one seems to actually be able to reproduce such a result.  I will be posting my results soon.  I know for a fact that finasteride had a drastic effect on my DHT so if this doesn't move the needle, I'm calling it a very elaborate scam.

----------


## Jcm800

HARIRI are you still thinking this stuff is helping you? Does anyone think it's helping? Feeling like a bloody idiot for ordering this at the moment.

----------


## shredder

> One of the things that made me buy and have the security of the test was Kératene its clinical trial with patients, even though it was short term, and the product is aimed at people who seem to understand the subject, even where there is specific labeling for who knows what is the value of DHT. But I was surprised by the fact that there has been minimal change in DHT.
> 
> Honestly, I could not understand what happened. The only thing I know is that I took the capsules religiously every day and it was done not just one, but two blood tests for confirmation.


 julio,

this is bad news indeed - on behalf of everyone here, thanks nevertheless for taking the tests. have you considered taking 2 capsules instead of one (remember, the trial was performed with 2/day) and then testing again? I mean, you have nothing to lose now, have you?

shit, i this doesn't work then I don't know what to do either.

----------


## Jcm800

Double post.

----------


## Jcm800

Yes Julio, for sure - thanks first and foremost. I just feel like a mug for not waiting on your results before ordering. 

Now, Bart said to me I should take a capsule am and pm due to the product having a 12 hour half life, perhaps it would have a baring if you took two?

----------


## Jcm800

But part of me wonders whether he suggested taking two daily just to deplete my supply quicker and order some more..

----------


## ajays

I am  surprised by the results posted by julio. All I can say is that I have definitely seen improvements in my hair while on Keratene, though I do not know my DHT levels as it is very difficult to get them done through my medical insurance here. I am eagerly looking fwd to ryan's results now. 

Maybe it's better to take 2x/day instead of 1x/day - no idea.





> HARIRI are you still thinking this stuff is helping you? Does anyone think it's helping? Feeling like a bloody idiot for ordering this at the moment.

----------


## Jcm800

> I am  surprised by the results posted by julio. All I can say is that I have definitely seen improvements in my hair while on Keratene, though I do not know my DHT levels as it is very difficult to get them done through my medical insurance here. I am eagerly looking fwd to ryan's results now. 
> 
> Maybe it's better to take 2x/day instead of 1x/day - no idea.


 Thanks ajays, this is making me feel a bit better! What improvement have you noticed? Are you on 2x daily yourself? Thanks.

----------


## ajays

Julio, 

Ignore my earlier post - i am able to see your results now. Do you think increase in testosterone could have cause increase in your DHT levels too? Maybe 1x/day of Keratene may not have been sufficient to counter the rise in testosterone? I am just guessing and trying to be optimistic here.

Also, i notice that you have an increase in beta estradiol. Is it something to be concerned about?





> My friends,
> 
> I have good news and bad news. The good news is that my exams left.
> Everyone knows here that I never had an interest in promoting any product, let alone pass a false impression in the use of these, then, I expose the test conducted by me, but do not discount the possibility of a user have different results, even finding it difficult to happen, because it is a clinical examination.
> 
> I will contact the company to find out what might have happened.
> 
> I used the Kératene for 26 days(and I'm still using), 1 capsule daily. In the 1st week wore morning and from 2nd week, for convenience, I use it at night before bed.
> On the 26th day, I made an examination that included testosterone and DHT and with the same sample, which was ordered held separate consideration only the DHT (to make sure the blood test). Exactly, two tests were made to not have bugs! The laboratory is reputable, trust fully.
> ...

----------


## JulioGP

> Hi Julio,
> 
> I am unable to see your results. Can you please post them again?
> 
> Thanks


 Yes, here:

----------


## JulioGP

> julio,
> 
> this is bad news indeed - on behalf of everyone here, thanks nevertheless for taking the tests. have you considered taking 2 capsules instead of one (remember, the trial was performed with 2/day) and then testing again? I mean, you have nothing to lose now, have you?
> 
> shit, i this doesn't work then I don't know what to do either.


 Yes, I was sad with the results too. I did not think to take 2 capsules, because all indications for my case should work with just one capsule. Following all product instructions related to my level of DHT, there would need to take 2 capsules and I was supposed to have had a major reduction in the level of DHT even with 1 capsule, and she even increased slightly, ie, had a normal hormonal variation but was still higher than in the previous examination. In my case, I understand that it makes more sense to continue investing in testing and blood tests. What was supposed to happen, did not happen.

----------


## ajays

I was on 2x/day for about 4 months and recently I reduced to 1x/day, based on the clinical trial report where the user went to 1x/day after some period. After looking at Julio's results, I am thinking of going back to 2x/day. Regarding improvements, I was having noticeable diffusion on my hairline and crown area for the past year. I had got on minox and it was pretty much destroying my hair, face and skin. I stopped minox and got on Keratene around 5 months back. My friends have confirmed that my hair looks less diffused now than earlier and the crown area is getting covered - based on what I see in the mirror. Therefore, I am really surprised by Julio's results.

I must also mention here that I have been using the Keratene shampoo + sercomplex 3 times a week and multi-vitamin/biotin tablet everyday. 

Apart from ryan,AAsuited is anyone else getting tested? Maybe it's better to be on 2x/day and then get tested. But the decision is up to each individual.




> Thanks ajays, this is making me feel a bit better! What improvement have you noticed? Are you on 2x daily yourself? Thanks.

----------


## JulioGP

> Yes Julio, for sure - thanks first and foremost. I just feel like a mug for not waiting on your results before ordering. 
> 
> Now, Bart said to me I should take a capsule am and pm due to the product having a 12 hour half life, perhaps it would have a baring if you took two?


 No, this information differs from the instruction manual. I took the medicine exactly as explained in the manual, see:



My baseline was 723pg/ml.

----------


## JulioGP

> Julio, 
> 
> Ignore my earlier post - i am able to see your results now. Do you think increase in testosterone could have cause increase in your DHT levels too? Maybe 1x/day of Keratene may not have been sufficient to counter the rise in testosterone? I am just guessing and trying to be optimistic here.
> 
> Also, i notice that you have an increase in beta estradiol. Is it something to be concerned about?


 The Beta estradiol is still within the limit, the mine was always higher even. On testosterone, I do not think. Precisely because of testosterone have increased I believed that DHT would reduce, but not. This actually also help to decrease the DHT, because if there is more testosterone in the blood, which means less testosterone is converted to DHT by 5AR, if you know what I mean.

I do not want to discourage anyone, just like that other people also do blood tests before and after.

----------


## Jcm800

Yes i see, but given my age and un-known DHT level i guess 2x capsules was correct advice in my case.

In your case tho - you could in theory take Finasteride without any conflict with Keretene?!

----------


## FearTheLoss

Sorry guys I haven't been keeping up with this thread since I dropped KaR....but has anyone done a blood test yet? and is anyone planning on it? 

I tried this stuff for a few weeks, 2 pills a day with no side effects and it honestly seemed to make my temples itch more and I had more pressure in that region which isn't a good thing...so I dropped it. 

I alway know a guy who takes RU and has been taking it for a year and it haulted his loss the whole time until he added KaR to his regimen and then he started losing in the temples...I'm assuming because of the increase in testosterone.

----------


## JulioGP

> Yes i see, but given my age and un-known DHT level i guess 2x capsules was correct advice in my case.
> 
> In your case tho - you could in theory take Finasteride without any conflict with Keretene?!


 No, you can not join the two drugs. Is the product(KAR) instructions.

----------


## JulioGP

> Sorry guys I haven't been keeping up with this thread since I dropped KaR....but has anyone done a blood test yet? and is anyone planning on it? 
> 
> I tried this stuff for a few weeks, 2 pills a day with no side effects and it honestly seemed to make my temples itch more and I had more pressure in that region which isn't a good thing...so I dropped it. 
> 
> I alway know a guy who takes RU and has been taking it for a year and it haulted his loss the whole time until he added KaR to his regimen and then he started losing in the temples...I'm assuming because of the increase in testosterone.


 Are you saying that the Kératene may have high testosterone levels? Feasible, because the level actually increased. I gave my views on soy milk that was the only thing I found relevant in this case, but it may be that too.

If it were so, it would be even more damaging, because in addition to increasing testosterone, DHT has not reduced.

JCM800, since you bought the product, I think I should test with 2 capsules yes, but do blood tests before.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Are you saying that the Kératene may have high testosterone levels? Feasible, because the level actually increased. I gave my views on soy milk that was the only thing I found relevant in this case, but it may be that too.
> 
> If it were so, it would be even more damaging, because in addition to increasing testosterone, DHT has not reduced.
> 
> JCM800, since you bought the product, I think I should test with 2 capsules yes, but do blood tests before.


 Yeah that's what I am saying, I believe my testosterone levels increased on KaR

----------


## Jcm800

To he honest I haven't got  spare funds to do blood tests, I ordered this based on the results of you other two or three people doing bloodwork and your results. But I got impatient, and stupidly ordered beforehand. In my case I'll either take x2 and risk wasting precious time, or I'll return it when it arrives, and see if their refund service sucks as well, that'll be interesting.

----------


## tdo

JCM,

Why not just try it and see what happens.  I believe this to be legit but who knows.  There are others on here as well as other forums that have seen results, so just give it a go.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> JCM,
> 
> Why not just try it and see what happens.  I believe this to be legit but who knows.  There are others on here as well as other forums that have seen results, so just give it a go.


 I haven't seen a single veteran member that is for sure they are getting results on this. The ones who say they have results have like 5 posts and popped up when this stuff came about.

----------


## Jcm800

> No, you can not join the two drugs. Is the product(KAR) instructions.


 I think you could join the two, one is a drug one appears to be snake oil, that's what I  was implying dude.

----------


## Jcm800

Julio - have they responded to you yet? We'd all love to hear their explanation!

----------


## Jcm800

If nothing else - the delivery was very quick - mine has arrived. Ok, i've decided i'll try it for three months (returning it would be a load of hassle no doubt) lets see how i feel taking two per day..

----------


## UK_

No wonder it doesnt have any sides... It doesnt lower systemic DHT!!! LOL

----------


## Jcm800

Right again UK lol, I'm losing the plot over here, shoot me for trying it

----------


## JulioGP

> Julio - have they responded to you yet? We'd all love to hear their explanation!


 The clandestine was told that I would email them. I'm trying to get in touch via chat, but still no success.

----------


## Jcm800

> The clandestine was told that I would email them. I'm trying to get in touch via chat, but still no success.


 Do they usually respond to you on chat then? Or is it unusual for them to ignore you?

----------


## UK_

> Right again UK lol, I'm losing the plot over here, shoot me for trying it


 Jcm, what do the pills look like?  If they're full of dark brown herbal stuff its most likely garbage.

----------


## JulioGP

> Do they usually respond to you on chat then? Or is it unusual for them to ignore you?


 The first time I went shopping, they were attentive. They even questioned about their results in clinical trials submitted that they had managed a reduction in DHT without elevation of testosterone, something virtually impossible. 

There is no way you download the DHT without any increased testosterora because if LESS testosterone was converted into DHT, will automatically remain more testosterone in the system, has no way to be different.. At the time they wrapped enough to answer it and could not respond. I was told it was not possible to pass as many technical details as well and it was simple, take the capsules and do the blood test that I would see.

----------


## Julian P

Hi guys,

Yes this is my first post, and no I'm not working for any company. I 've just been following this topic for a while, and want to talk some rationality in the debate. (I'm actually active on a dutch forum, but it's just so quiet over there)

Julio's result's are indeed bad news, but keep in mind that it is only one result. If a company does a clinical trial with only 20 people we comlain (and righfully so), so with one result we should not conclude it is a snake oil. That other user, hugo, did have good results on it, right ?

I'm sill pretty hopefull, moreover because I still can't see how Keratene would have falsified their clinical results if they worked with the University of Ghent. I live in Belgium, and I can say that this Uni is still largely publicly funded, so it would never risk it's reputation for the little money this company could possibly offer them. 

So: yes it's a bad indication, but let's wait for some more results before we get to big conclusions.

----------


## Jcm800

> Jcm, what do the pills look like?  If they're full of dark brown herbal stuff its most likely garbage.


 They look like very small capsules UK, smell herbal for sure, I'll break one open later when I'm home. Took one this morning, dick still the same, no brain fog etc, no change whatsoever lol, oh there is-im pissed off..

----------


## JulioGP

I agree with Julian P, since these are passed resultatos by users with certain credibility.

To take the inquiries of our other friend, here is the image that comes inside the capsule.



I agree that we have to wait a few more results, but I find it strange in a sample of clinical trials in which they had 100&#37; some reduction in DHT, me being a super man who had no simple reduction % of DHT, however, still increased slightly.

I'm not trying to discredit the clinical trials, but it sounds a bit strange.

----------


## clandestine

Indeed. And welcome to tbt, Julian. I agree with your thoughts.

I would try to email, rather than chat, If possible.

----------


## Cob984

I tried CB 1&#37; yesterday, wow i dont know how i made it through the day, got the occasional chest palpitations and felt like i had just snorted a ball of blow, somehow i managed to fall asleep at night,

Tried CB 0.5% today and a bit better, though i can still feel the weirdness, 
I will try to take 20 mg in total during a week and report, since i believe in the cosmo stuff 50 mg once a week works as well or something like that , lets see. 

Also ordered indo+chromo as well as ramatroban today from IDRag


I dont think im trying keratene again - inspite of all the sides on these new products, it feels so much better not being tired and unalert all day, i actually get stuff done at work now, plus im not putting on tons of weight for no reason so that helps as well.

----------


## clandestine

You've bought CB from Kane?

----------


## Cob984

Yes

----------


## clandestine

Nice. What vehicle are you using?

----------


## Cob984

KB

----------


## clandestine

True. You should keep a log. Start with baseline photos, top middle back, etc.

----------


## Jcm800

Fck I'm miserable, another workmate noticed my crown is balding today. Wish I had the balls to try Fin and quit wasting time on scams.

----------


## clandestine

> Fck I'm miserable, another workmate noticed my crown is balding today. Wish I had the balls to try Fin and quit wasting time on scams.


 Bud, Im 21 and my (female) coworker said I was balding yesterday. Be happy you've had your youth, Christ.

----------


## Jcm800

Fair comment, that'd kill me at 21 mate, I have had my youth it's true, but it still hurts at my age, you'll see one day

----------


## Jcm800

Well, thats my first day taking this stuff x2 - i feel no different at all, complete opposite of Cob when he takes it, ok it's only one day, but two capsules and zero difference in myself, so far anyway.

----------


## Dan26

How many people have posted pre and post DHT levels when going on this stuff?

If it truly has DHT lowering effects it would be a good compliment to a regimen, but since it is a smaller amount of DHT compared to fin, would not expect it to do much on its own. In a combo with RU and/or minox, could be useful.

----------


## JulioGP

friends,

I contacted the company and received a return of information. I honestly do not believe my result has not change the method of examination, since the same method was used for the Saw Palmetto for example, and showed variation. I have also used this same method above for Finasteride and also grew, but whatever.

Do not want to take away the hope of those who bought the Kératene, but I think very valid tests were performed to determine if the product is working or not, otherwise baldness will continue to progress and reach a point that may not be able to reverse this case and you wasted time, money and your hair. Here is the company's response:

Julio: Hello *****
I am sending herewith the table that make tracking my results. The Kératene was not effective, no change in DHT after 26 days of use.

I would like if possible to know what you think of it.

Thank you.

Company:Hi Julio,
thank you so much for the results, we received the values.
The medical team and our support team is currently on vacation till July 15.
In order to analyze the issue, we need more details about the procedure.
From the attachment I can not see which test method was used for your tests.
What did they use? RIA, EIA, ELISA, LCTMS?
Also, please let me know, if prior tot the test, if you had any sorts of nuts, supplements, soy products, pumpkin seeds or any form of medication.
Many thanks.

Julio: Hello

The method used was the ELISA.

Yes, before you start using Kératene I consumed soy milk, but one month before starting the capsules Kératene, I aborted the consumption of milk. I think this may have influenced in an increase in testosterone, but do not understand why did not reduce DHT absolutely nothing, in fact, even increased slightly. All this history exams DHT were made ​​with the same method in the same time and in the same laboratory, total competence.

Thank you.

Julio

Company:  see,
ELISA explains partially the problem with the results.
ELISA has a very high technical and procedural bias.
We tried it once and quit it immediately due to the large variation between two tests under controlled situation.
We recommend using RIA (radioimmunoassay) or  much better  LCTMS (liquid chromatoscopy tandem mass spectometry).
These 2 methods are much more reliable than EIA or ELISA and the accuracy of the results is far greater.
Also, please do not consume any vegetable sterols (nuts, seeds of any sorts and also no soy products of any sort) with at least 7 days prior to the collection of the blood.
These foods/substances are known to affect the relation between various endocrine factors and DHT.
Anyway, well send you another product, from a more recent batch, with a slightly more stable formula, after July 15.
My request is however that if you want to retest the values, please look for a lab that runs RIA or LCTMS, not ELISA.

I will not conduct further tests because it does not make sense to me. Reduction of DHT is reduced DHT, no matter the method. If this reduction occurs using Finasteride in method X, it should occur using the method Kératene X too.

Anyway, just found it interesting to pass this information to friends here.

----------


## ryan555

> friends,
> 
> I contacted the company and received a return of information. I honestly do not believe my result has not change the method of examination, since the same method was used for the Saw Palmetto for example, and showed variation. I have also used this same method above for Finasteride and also grew, but whatever.
> 
> Do not want to take away the hope of those who bought the Kératene, but I think very valid tests were performed to determine if the product is working or not, otherwise baldness will continue to progress and reach a point that may not be able to reverse this case and you wasted time, money and your hair. Here is the company's response:
> 
> Julio: Hello *****
> I am sending herewith the table that make tracking my results. The Kératene was not effective, no change in DHT after 26 days of use.
> 
> ...


 Julio, did you say your DHT went up on finasteride as well?

----------


## Dan26

> friends,
> 
> I contacted the company and received a return of information. I honestly do not believe my result has not change the method of examination, since the same method was used for the Saw Palmetto for example, and showed variation. I have also used this same method above for Finasteride and also grew, but whatever.
> 
> Do not want to take away the hope of those who bought the Kératene, but I think very valid tests were performed to determine if the product is working or not, otherwise baldness will continue to progress and reach a point that may not be able to reverse this case and you wasted time, money and your hair. Here is the company's response:
> 
> Julio: Hello *****
> I am sending herewith the table that make tracking my results. The Kératene was not effective, no change in DHT after 26 days of use.
> 
> ...


 Very interesting Julio, thanks for posting all of this!
When you did DHT tests prior to and while taking fin, how much did your DHT decrease?

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks Julio, really appreciate your efforts, but yes, seems to me reduction of DHT should be occurring with Keratene as well, whichever way its measured, seems they are trying to deflect the truth here?

----------


## JulioGP

I do not remember exactly the right number, but somewhere around 400 with Fina.

I got to talk to them when used in fine, all tests were made with this method and in the same laboratory, showing the efficiency of Fine regarding the reduction in DHT, but I'm still waiting for the answer.

----------


## Jcm800

Julio what is your instinct telling you about this product? To me, it's too good to be true, one more user blood result like yours and ill be convinced it's a con. But why does cob react so badly on one capsule, even claiming penile shrinkage, yet I've had six capsules in 3 says and feel no ill effects whatsoever?

----------


## StuckInARut

What is the actual main ingredient in this product? Beta-Sitosterol?

----------


## JulioGP

Jcm800

I think what happened is strange. We have other users that will make blood tests soon (the AAsuited is one of them). The best thing to do is wait for his exams in order to draw some conclusions about the product. If tests show it to my similar result, ie no effectiveness will be demonstrated that the product does not work, at least not in reducing DHT.

About the side effects, I believe in two things. The first may be the psychological effect / placebo. The second is that in fact we do not know what are the mechanisms K&#233;ratene. There was no long-term studies and not know their reactions. Sometimes, it may take some side effects, but not necessarily reduce DHT. In theory, K&#233;ratene adheres to the 5ard molecule (chemical binding) and acts as an temporary insulator. It simply “glues” itself for several hours to 5ard and covers it so it does not transfer the atoms to T. After that, it is simply processed by the cytokine enzymes and it is “eaten away”, just like regular vegetable fat.  

That is, we do not know exactly what this drug can cause in terms of side effects, even if you can not reduce the DHT, because we do not know exactly what are the chemical reactions suffered.

----------


## Dan26

Julio your case makes no sense. ELISA typically over estimates and LCTMS etc is more accurate true but their trial data shows major drop in DHT, most any lab test would be able to pick up those kind of changes. You are either an statistical anomaly or something is fishy here.

Inhibiting DHT causes a cascade effect we need a quality trusted expert to give a scientific explanation of how keratene avoids this.

Hopefully some more ppl get tests done for DHT, Free T, and Estrogen and we can see what the deal is.

----------


## JulioGP

Well, as I said before, I have no intention to promote or denigrate any product here. Honestly, do not waste my time for this. I do not think that is an anomaly, because I had a reduction in DHT with Fina, before stopping because of side effects. Suspect? Everyone has the right to judge my story as you wish. I hope whoever is testing the product take many precautions as I took so many tests and do as I did, not to come to an opinion without some foundation, just because you think "this" or "that." There is another way to evaluate a product like this, only with a protocol blood tests as I did. Dan, if you are also testing the Kératene, I hope you get the blood tests, it will be the only way to have any credibility in opinions about the product and its operation and perhaps discuss about the tests.

----------


## JulioGP

Unnecessary to do so, but by friends who are testing the product, here's my credibility:

*Before Kératene:*




*After Kératene:*


Are exactly the tests, as it is in the table placed for easy viewing. I will not waste time in discussing the credibility of my exams, each has the choice to believe or not. Who does not want to believe, I wish luck with the results with Kératene, but do blood tests!

Honestly, I would like to see more results of blood tests here Forum users who are using the product.

----------


## Dan26

> Well, as I said before, I have no intention to promote or denigrate any product here. Honestly, do not waste my time for this. I do not think that is an anomaly, because I had a reduction in DHT with Fina, before stopping because of side effects. Suspect? Everyone has the right to judge my story as you wish. I hope whoever is testing the product take many precautions as I took so many tests and do as I did, not to come to an opinion without some foundation, just because you think "this" or "that." There is another way to evaluate a product like this, only with a protocol blood tests as I did. Dan, if you are also testing the Kératene, I hope you get the blood tests, it will be the only way to have any credibility in opinions about the product and its operation and perhaps discuss about the tests.


 Your efforts are appreciated bro, and I wasn't trying to say anythign against you, but rather against the product. To be honest I would be shocked if peoples bloodtests before and while on keratene are in line with the clinical results!

I wish the companies claims were true.

----------


## ryan555

I just started the pills two days ago.  I may increase to twice a day and I will get my blood drawn Friday morning.  I should have the results by next week.  I am taking a different test than Julio.  My clean DHT level was 50 on a scale of 30-85.  Using the same test, my DHT level was 12 while on finasteride.  If this doesn't show a noticeable drop, I am calling this a scam.

----------


## ajays

ryan,

That's great ! But would 1 week be enough time for the product results to show up in the blood test. I am no doctor but in my humble opinion you should probably try 2x/day for 2 weeks or so and then do a blood test.




> I just started the pills two days ago.  I may increase to twice a day and I will get my blood drawn Friday morning.  I should have the results by next week.  I am taking a different test than Julio.  My clean DHT level was 50 on a scale of 30-85.  Using the same test, my DHT level was 12 while on finasteride.  If this doesn't show a noticeable drop, I am calling this a scam.

----------


## ryan555

> ryan,
> 
> That's great ! But would 1 week be enough time for the product results to show up in the blood test. I am no doctor but in my humble opinion you should probably try 2x/day for 2 weeks or so and then do a blood test.


 I believe that they showed results in the clinical trials at seven days.  In fact, I think they recommend getting a blood test after seven days.  I know the Univ. of Gent study was 1 pill a day for 7 days and every male subject showed a drop in DHT after that time period.

----------


## ryan555

Julio, thanks for posting your results.  As I see it, there are three possibilities.

1) You are a statistical anomaly (unlikely since you responded to fin) 

2) your tests are skewed since you took the pills at night and had the test in the AM.  DHT and testosterone levels are significantly higher in the morning and if the half life of this stuff is really short, I could see how it would be possible to resume a normal DHT level the morning after you took the pill.  I think they do recommend taking the pills in the morning if you're only taking one dose.

3) this is a scam

We shall see when my results are in...

----------


## Dan26

Thanks for doing this Julio, and Ryan! Will be very interested to see your results.

----------


## Jcm800

Yes, thanks to everyone involved here, I'll carry on taking  my two until ryan has his results, will be interesting!

----------


## Cob984

Jcm, im quite sure if u can tolerate 2/day with no issues at all, ur good to go with fin

----------


## Jcm800

> Jcm, im quite sure if u can tolerate 2/day with no issues at all, ur good to go with fin


 I did wonder cob, are you convinced this stuff gives you sides dude? I'm knocking two back daily like they're sweets, no ill effects whatsoever dude.

----------


## Cob984

Yes 100&#37;, it gave me worse sides than anything iv tried before apart from fin obv
I could barely survive 1/day

I am on RU now and more than half the sides are gone

----------


## Jcm800

Jeez, that's bizzare. Even stranger are the results Julio got from his blood  work. You get bad sides, his DHT hasn't lowered, and I eat them like candy, what's going on?!

----------


## Jcm800

Cob, how long does it take for sides to kick in for you when you take a capsule? I'm just trying to understand what's happening. Maybe I haven't been on it long enough for them to manifest?

----------


## JulioGP

Dan26,

I'm sorry if I interpreted you wrong, thanks for the confidence.

ryan555,

Very nice of you to be doing exams too, am anxious for the outcome!

I agree with you that the results may vary depending on the time that makes the examination and who takes this medication. When I wore Fina, always took the night and did blood tests in the morning, between 7 and 8am. Currently the Kératene, after the first week, he always took 1 capsule at night before bed and performed blood tests at the same time of the season when I realized wore Fina, between 7 and 8am. If the half life of the drug is 12 hours, performed at the time this test was still within the period of effectiveness of the product.

Even so, if there was a real decrease of DHT, it would not return so quickly to their normal levels, it would take at least a few days. Know the mechanisms of action are different from Fina, but Fina has shown in clinical studies after administration of 1mg, DHT blood decreases almost 70% and stays there for almost one week until proving that there would be no need for take 1 tablet every day as many do.

But back to Kératene, even with a different mechanism of action, both DHT and testosterone would take some time to return to their original levels, anyway.

ryan555, I did the test after 26 days of use, but the product says it effective for reducing DHT occurs in 12 days, at least that is what was shown in the tests, see below:


Finally,

I received a reply a bit different company now, saying that the accuracy of the ELISA test is 80%. To me this means that even if there was a reduction, the ELISA could measure without problems, but still think this is not an excuse relevant for the company, since this same test repeatedly identified a reduction DHT used at the time Fina. See the full answer.

*"Indeed, I understand your observation, the results themselves are not per se challenged.
The values are.
The objection to ELISA refers  strictly to the fact that ELISA provides accuracy of about 80%.
In other words, if the results says 1000, the real value can be anywhere between 800 and 1200.
The ELISA method (you can learn more about the differences between these methods on reports of medical research facilities)
was developed and used since the 80s. Since then RIA was developed and recently, since the past decade, LCTMS.
LCTMS is the golden standard for measuring in a precise way, such small amounts of substances, such as DHT.
Any of the information above can be verified and checked, no matter what you believe personally.
Our recommendation was, for the sake of accuracy, to use at least RIA  or LCTMS, if possible, as these methods are far more accurate.
What you decide on your side, if completely up to you, of course.

King regards,
KERATENE Product Specialist
www.keratene.com"*


Hugs.

----------


## ryan555

Update - I've been taking two capsules a day exactly as directed and I ordered my blood test for Friday morning.  So far I am not experiencing any side effects to speak of, and I have a neurological condition that makes me hypersensitive to many drugs and supplements.  I will test at exactly the same time as my pre-keratene test was done.  It usually takes a few days to get the results so we should know something by the middle of next week.  I am not going to accept any bs about the type of test I am having either (as Julio was told by the company).  I have had this test done by the same lab multiple times and it has shown a highly stable DHT level over the past 3+ years, and a significant drop when I was on finasteride.

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks ryan, much appreciated, this treatments fate as far as I'm concerned rests on your results,thanks  once again.

----------


## Dan26

Awesome dude. Are you just getting DHT tested, or Test/FreeTest anything like that?

Hopefully it does drop your DHT, but if you dont get the other tests done we still wont know if the company claims are true. Although, if you had sides on fin, and none on this, and it shows DHT reduced, that is a great sign  :Smile: 

Good luck brother, and thanks again for doing this.

----------


## ajays

Thanks ryan - this is really great.  Do you know which method your lab had used /going to use for determining the DHT levels i.e ELISA, RIA or LCTMS?

----------


## ryan555

> Thanks ryan - this is really great.  Do you know which method your lab had used /going to use for determining the DHT levels i.e ELISA, RIA or LCTMS?


 I honestly don't know, but I don't believe it matters.  EVERY SINGLE subject in their trial had a very significant drop in DHT after 12 days.  Even if the other tests are only "80% accurate" as they claim, they should still pick up a drop as significant as what they reported.

----------


## ryan555

> Awesome dude. Are you just getting DHT tested, or Test/FreeTest anything like that?
> 
> Hopefully it does drop your DHT, but if you dont get the other tests done we still wont know if the company claims are true. Although, if you had sides on fin, and none on this, and it shows DHT reduced, that is a great sign 
> 
> Good luck brother, and thanks again for doing this.


 I'm just getting DHT this time.  I know exactly where my testosterone is in general so if I have any sides down the road ill test it.

----------


## Dan26

> I'm just getting DHT this time.  I know exactly where my testosterone is in general so if I have any sides down the road ill test it.


 Nice man. Btw, when you took fin, did you get sides? If so, how severe?

If your DHT levels are lowered by Keratene, then I'd be convinced it is worth taking for those who either 1) Can't tolerate fin 2) Want to see how their body reacts to lowering DHT before jumping on fin (but obviously if hair is maintained they wouldn't need to hop on fin)

----------


## Jcm800

> Nice man. Btw, when you took fin, did you get sides? If so, how severe?
> 
> If your DHT levels are lowered by Keratene, then I'd be convinced it is worth taking for those who either 1) Can't tolerate fin 2) Want to see how their body reacts to lowering DHT before jumping on fin (but obviously if hair is maintained they wouldn't need to hop on fin)


 Thing is Dan26 - i dont think ryan is going to see a change, same a Julio - i'm prepping myself for a let down here, I hope i'm totally wrong, but it seems like a well thought out elaborate scam to me..

----------


## Dan26

> Thing is Dan26 - i dont think ryan is going to see a change, same a Julio - i'm prepping myself for a let down here, I hope i'm totally wrong, but it seems like a well thought out elaborate scam to me..


 I agree man. Things do not add up. IMO it either does not decrease DHT, or it does, but sides are still a possibility and other hormones will be affected.

One thing to note is the guys in their trials had DHT well above the normal range. So by using keratene and bringing DHT into healthy range, I could understand the instances for sides being lower. BUT, still, no change in testosterone or free testosterone?? Doesn't make sense...I really wish they would have included estrogen in their too, and cant help but question why they did not.

Ah well, we should find out soon with Ryans tests resilts. If him *and* Julio both have no change in DHT, we'll know whats up lol.

----------


## ovoxo

I'm using Keratene since march, and starting to lose faith cause I still itch a hair gets thinner...I'm taking 2 pills a day, no side effects

----------


## ryan555

> Thing is Dan26 - i dont think ryan is going to see a change, same a Julio - i'm prepping myself for a let down here, I hope i'm totally wrong, but it seems like a well thought out elaborate scam to me..


 I'm honestly quite skeptical too, for a number of reasons:

1) every positive review I've read online is by someone who has one post on a forum.  They also all tried to sound like a "brah," like they were trying too hard to connect with other users.  Also, the trials were done in Europe, but most of the reviews are coming from guys who sound like American frat boys.  I have spent a ton of time in Europe and those types of guys do not exist there.

2) the only legit people who have been tested showed no decrease in DHT.

3) of the people in their trial, all of them had super high DHT.  Did they screen out anyone with low to normal DHT or was this just some insane coincidence?  If they did screen them out, why not disclose that?

Luckily, skepticism cannot affect a blood test.  I do also find it quite interesting that Prohairclinic showed positive results in their "independent" study, done with a university.  It seems unlikely that they would risk their entire reputation by falsifying study results to make a few bucks off some vitamins.  Trust me, if this is a scam, I am going to make sure everyone knows it.  If its legit, I'll make sure everyone knows that too.

----------


## ryan555

> Nice man. Btw, when you took fin, did you get sides? If so, how severe?
> 
> If your DHT levels are lowered by Keratene, then I'd be convinced it is worth taking for those who either 1) Can't tolerate fin 2) Want to see how their body reacts to lowering DHT before jumping on fin (but obviously if hair is maintained they wouldn't need to hop on fin)


 I did have a few sides, but I was unaware of them until I stopped using it.  My sides were deceased body hair, a short period of groin pain (may not have even been related), and...uh...a little "dribbling" when I urinated.  In the 12 years I was on the drug, I never went online to read about side effects, never even expected them, and my life was not compromised by them.  I would gladly take them back in exchange for not thinking about hair loss every freaking day.  If this keratene turns out to be bunk, I am going to try fin once again.

Edit:  I should also note that I was taking half a 5 mg pill every day for the last few years.  I don't recall having any sides earlier on when I was taking 1 mg.  Also, in the last few months I was on the drug, I started taking a whole 5 mg pill and I noticed some minor gyno symptoms.  Again, it didn't even occur to me that it was fin causing it, I just thought I needed to hit the gym.  It went away almost immediately when I stopped taking it.

----------


## Jcm800

What made you quit the fin after all that time? Was it effective for you?

----------


## ryan555

I have a neurological condition and my doctor wanted me to quit all meds for a while.  It worked wonders for my hair the whole time I was on it - regrew my juvenile hairline and kept it lush and think well into my 30's.

----------


## Dan26

> I have a neurological condition and my doctor wanted me to quit all meds for a while.  It worked wonders for my hair the whole time I was on it - regrew my juvenile hairline and kept it lush and think well into my 30's.


 When did you start losing? And did you have aggressive loss aka destined for NW4-6 by your 30's?

----------


## JulioGP

ryan555, just a consideration.

Probably the result of your blood test will described the method used in the examination.

Hugs.

----------


## ajays

ryan,
did you undergo a shedding phase while on fin?





> I have a neurological condition and my doctor wanted me to quit all meds for a while.  It worked wonders for my hair the whole time I was on it - regrew my juvenile hairline and kept it lush and think well into my 30's.

----------


## ryan555

> ryan,
> did you undergo a shedding phase while on fin?


 No.

----------


## Jcm800

This stuff smells like strong curry powder if you break a capsule open and smell it, even looks like it. 

Anyway a week on it for me x2 and nothing sides wise to report. Think I could eat x5 daily and be fine frankly.

----------


## Jcm800

This stuff smells like strong curry powder if you break a capsule open and smell it, even looks like it. 

Anyway a week on it for me x2 and nothing sides wise to report. Think I could eat x5 daily and be fine frankly.

----------


## Jcm800

> So its 7 of us now trying this product
> 
> cob984 - conpecia - longwayhome - doke - rogerrabit - stublue and ME.


 Havent had any updates from you guys listed? (apart from cob) Have you all quit using it?!

----------


## JulioGP

> Havent had any updates from you guys listed? (apart from cob) Have you all quit using it?!


 AAsuited is trying too.

----------


## HARIRI

I will never quit it because there is no way that I would go back to Finasteride plus i need any oral DHT blocker even if it works less. In my opinion keratene is much effective than saw palmetto extract as a replacement. Plus it has zero sexual sides even less than saw palmetto 500 mg. Sexual activity is very important in my life and cant sacrifice with it for hair.

----------


## Jcm800

> I will never quit it because there is no way that I would go back to Finasteride plus i need any oral DHT blocker even if it works less. In my opinion keratene is much effective than saw palmetto extract as a replacement. Plus it has zero sexual sides even less than saw palmetto 500 mg. Sexual activity is very important in my life and cant sacrifice with it for hair.


 But but do you think it's benefiting your hair, or are you clinging onto it as a last resort hoping it's helping?

----------


## ryan555

Just got my blood drawn.  I should have the results by the middle of next week.  We shall see...

----------


## Jcm800

Thanks ryan, we eagerly await your results..

----------


## HARIRI

> But but do you think it's benefiting your hair, or are you clinging onto it as a last resort hoping it's helping?


 Yes its my last resort but to be honest it really reduced my hair fall and restored my sexual energy that i slightly lost with Saw Palmetto 500 mg.

----------


## GuyFromUK

Ryan - are your blood tests for before taking KAR or follow up results after starting?

----------


## ryan555

> Ryan - are your blood tests for before taking KAR or follow up results after starting?


 I took a blood test right before starting KAR and I just had my second test after 9 days of KAR twice daily.

----------


## Jcm800

How are you feeling taking it twice daily ryan? I'm taking the same into my second week and feel fine, just wondering, as cob feels awful it would seem even looking at two keratene capsules.

----------


## ryan555

> How are you feeling taking it twice daily ryan? I'm taking the same into my second week and feel fine, just wondering, as cob feels awful it would seem even looking at two keratene capsules.


 I feel totally normal.  No side effects at all so far.

----------


## Jcm800

> I feel totally normal.  No side effects at all so far.


 Yeah me too - i'll be surprised if you're test results show any change in favour of these capsules frankly.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> I feel totally normal.  No side effects at all so far.


 When do you get your results?

----------


## ryan555

In case you didn't see it in the other thread, the verdict is SCAM.  My DHT went from 50 before KAR to 55 after 9 days of two pills daily.  This stuff is 100% worthless.

PS, my DHT was 8 while on finasteride using the same test.

----------


## JulioGP

Here more comments.

Results similar to mine.

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13251

FAKE PRODUCT!

----------


## clandestine

Very interesting, and unfortunate.

----------


## Julian P

That's a disappointment. I already ordered 60 capsules, so I guess I'll get a before and after bloodtest to be completely sure it won't work for me. 

Ryan did you contact the company with your results ? I'm pretty curious about their response. 

And AAsuited did you get your results already ? Were they as bad ?

----------


## StayThick

An androgen blocker with absolutely no sides?? 

I'm glad I never bought into the initial hype for this treatment.. Not for a second. I knew this was a SCAM from day 1.

For those that got the bloodwork done and posted their results on here I say KUDOS. You potentially saved many people from investing money into this product when clearly it doesn't work. Total SHAM.

I tip my hat to everyone that spent their hard earned dollars on trying this and then getting tested to prove its efficacy. Thank you all.

----------


## yeahyeahyeah

> An androgen blocker with absolutely no sides?? 
> 
> I'm glad I never bought into the initial hype for this treatment.. Not for a second. I knew this was a SCAM from day 1.
> 
> For those that got the bloodwork done and posted their results on here I say KUDOS. You potentially saved many people from investing money into this product when clearly it doesn't work. Total SHAM.
> 
> I tip my hat to everyone that spent their hard earned dollars on trying this and then getting tested to prove its efficacy. Thank you all.


 +1 

Respect.

Damn retarded company!

----------


## Jcm800

> Very interesting, and unfortunate.


 Worst advice I ever took..

----------


## Californication

Ahh well this sucks. I posted earlier about my doctor messing up the blood tests so that I just have an 'after' DHT test, which was at 46 on a scale of something like 16-79 (ng-dl). 

When I get off it, I should probably measure my DHT again to see if it had any effect, altho at this point, I doubt it (46 would be around where it would be lowered according to the clinical trials if I had a somewhat high DHT level). 

What do you guys make of the guy's post on page 77, Hugo I think, the guy who was overloading on Keratene capsules? He didn't seem to have the shill posting quality that the other guys on the web have and had a decent number of posts on this website. I've been doing that for the past 2 weeks or so now.

----------


## Jcm800

Double post

----------


## Jcm800

Repeat post, Internet issue.

----------


## Jcm800

We never heard from 'Hugo' again after page 77 for some reason either..

----------


## ajays

Well I will be first to admit that I have been a little taken aback with the results posted by Julio and ryan. But I am willing to give the product the benefit of doubt (related to their argument of ELISA versus LCTMS method of testing) for the sole reason that I see definite improvement in my hair. I am not at all comfortable with stopping this regimen when it seems to be working for me. 

I am sure many of you will assume that i am troll trying to promote the company (which isn't true), but honestly it's none of my concern.I am just telling you my personal experience after being on this regimen for 5 months. I just glad that I no longer have to apply minox everyday and suffer with the face/skin side effects. 

All i can suggest as a friend for users like jcm800 is use up your supply of the capsules and then decide for yourself whether it's working or not. Just laying the other side of the story, rest is upto each individual.

----------


## Jcm800

I hear you ajays, I wish I could say the same as you, how long have you been taking it? 

I can't afford to waste time finding out if it's going to work for me, I highly doubt it will now frankly. 

Has anyone contacted them in any shape or form yet?

----------


## ajays

I have been taking it for 5 months, and I started seeing some visible improvements from 7th week onwards i think.




> I hear you ajays, I wish I could say the same as you, how long have you been taking it? 
> 
> I can't afford to waste time finding out if it's going to work for me, I highly doubt it will now frankly. 
> 
> Has anyone contacted them in any shape or form yet?

----------


## HARIRI

Guys I saw this in Keratene.com Blog:

Dear ryan555,

&#160;

thank&#160;you for the opportunity you created for us to shed some light into the matter.

We tried to post this reply directly to the thread on the forum, however up to the&#160;date,&#160;our request for an account has not been approved by the admin of that site.

Furthermore, all attempts from our legit users to reply to the topic results in the immediate deletion of the post or banning of the user.

This fact raises serious concerns with regard to the policy of the forum where you chose to post and it may indicate that the forum is not exactly welcoming alternative and properly&#160;argumented&#160;stands that conflict with the status quo dictated by a few posters.

Needless to say, such attitude can only sadden us and is in no way helpful for the avid reader willing to listen to both sides of the story, not just to your point of view.

&#160;

As such, although we wanted to post our reply to the published reaction at baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=133979&postcount=1 much earlier, we were not able to do it due to factors named above.

&#160;

First of all, we agree with the point of view of the people who are frustrated and who feel bad about spending time and money trying various solutions against hair loss.

It just feels bad and at some point in time, most of us, felt the bitter taste of being screwed.

&#160;

Now, we’d like to go down to business.

Although the original post you created lack any form of argument and it should not be dignified with a detailed answer, we decided anyway to explain the situation not necessarily for you but more for the casual reader, confused by your post.

We addressed&#160;JulioGP’s&#160;post later in this text, and we’re confident he will agree with our point of view.

&#160;

There are several major issues with your post and here is why:

&#160;

The basics

First of all we can not verify whether you are a legit user, we do not know who you are, we have no data about you and from our regard you can very well be just a faceless person that just… dumps posts.

No client matching your sketchy details even attempted to contact us in the past 30 days from the date of this post, let alone to request a refund, based on your story.

We invite you to play fair and provide us with some form of sign of life and let us know who you are (via the support e-mail).

Please feel free to drop us a line.

As you probably know by now (if you are indeed a legit user), our customer care team is friendly and we always take good care of our clients.

&#160;

Secondly, your post contains zero valuable and usable data. No values, no numbers, no nothing. All one reads is… noise.

Here’s where you might already get angry and start boiling but bear with us till the end if you can.

&#160;

Setting aside the tone of your post and the belligerent attitude (seriously, we’re fine people over here but you should work on that a bit), according to your brief and colorful post, we read little and we understand even less.

No wonder other readers get all crazy and enthusiastic.

The less you say, the easier it’s to stupefy someone.

You simply scream <fraud/scam/lie> but further than that, we see:

-&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;no test results,

-&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;no lab info,

-&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;no name of the test method,

-&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;no time frame,

-&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;no protocol indicated,

-&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;no schedule,

in&#160;other words, nothing to indicate you did a great job, like a jolly good fella.

&#160;

Anyway, let’s skip the all-so-important details anyway – seems to be in fashion nowadays in these forums - and let’s move on now to your pain.

You practically say “I got bad DHT results”. Summarized, this is it.

No further details provided.

How are we doing so far? We’re correct, right?

Now let’s move to the core of your problem: the method.

&#160;

The method

For the uninformed reader that doesn’t care about the fine print, here comes the boring part.

Nevertheless, it is not worth skipping as the devil is in details.

&#160;

Our legit clients that wish to undergo valid DHT testing receive a package with some details, including the&#160;do’s&#160;and don’ts.

In it, we explain several important details, amongst which, the correct way and the correct method they need to choose in order to get the real deal and not some washed-down numbers on a piece of paper.

Currently on the market there are four major players in the medical lab department.

These players are called E IA, E LISA, R IA (all three being so-called the enzyme assay methods) and LCMS.

The letters represent the abbreviation of the names enzyme immunoassay, enzyme-linked&#160;immunosorbent&#160;assay, radio immunoassay and liquid chromatography tandem mass spectrometry.

Each and every one of these four entails a completely different mechanism of action and each and every one will deliver a completely different result, of the same sample. Bear with us more.

&#160;

How did it go for you?

Since you did not provide any sort of clue with regard to which method the lab you chose used to process your sample, we’ll assume you did the same mistake likeJulioGP&#160;did.

We assume you hopped out of the bus and got into a commercial med lab on the main street and we’ll assume they served you promptly with a needle in your vein.

After paying somewhere around the amount of 30 bucks (it’s not worth more actually), you got a piece of paper (or e-mail) with some confusing numbers on it, along with the scribbled EIA or ELISA or RIA remark next to your result.

How are we doing so far? We’re pretty close, right?

If we are right, you’ve just been screwed. And here it is why:

&#160;

The problem with the assay method

The enzyme assay method was developed and introduced commercially in the late 60’s.

Its main role back then was to detect the presence of specific substances using a simple contact technique between the tested substance and a set of chemical components, and is able to give a fast response time for the tested sample.

Basically what the method does, is to confirm or deny the presence of the substance in the tested sample, using a true (substance present) or false (substance absent) mechanism.

The method was not designed to offer precise, accurate values of how much tested stuff is actually present in the sample.

However, in the past decades, this method has been refined and improved so that it could be used as a diagnostic tool in (quote) medicine and plant pathology, but it is still mainly used as a quality control check in various industries to check for presence of substances (end quote), not for measuring their exact amounts.

If it’s that unreliable, why is it then used? Because it is very cheap, affordable, reusable, portable and it does offer some sort of numeric indication of what is tested.

Depending on the chosen technical protocol, there are several substances involved, such as reagents,&#160;reactives, validation chemicals, substrates and other procedural aspects, such as derivative calculations based on the principal substance.

&#160;

The pitfalls

One of the main issues with the above is that when you try to accurately measure tiny amounts of substance, like DHT is, the method requires that the tested substance to be present in a specific minimum quantity, called threshold. This threshold varies per type of chemical substance.

Simply put, this is known as detection sensitivity range.

Anything under or above this range will be virtually impossible to test and the results will be a false positive or false negative.

Translated in numbers, this means that if the result shows say 187, the real value is actually off the scale and&#160;can not&#160;be accurately measured.

You will get however “a” value, but it is not necessarily “the” correct value.

&#160;

Visualizing the amount to be measured

To help our readers better understand the challenges a measuring method faces, we’ll give the following visual clue.

Take a cake that weighs 1 kilo.

Now spilt it in 1 trillion pieces (that is 1 000 000 000 000).

Take only 1 of those 1 trillion pieces and measure it on a kitchen scale.

The weight indication your kitchen scale will show you… surprise, surprise: zero.

Conversely, if you take that 1 of those 1 trillion pieces and you put it under a much more sensitive scale – like the ones used to weigh stuff in a pharmacy, you might get some sort of result. But you’re still far for the real value.

Better still, take that particle and put it under an electron scanning microscope.

You will be able now to effectively&#160;zoom&#160;the particle, see its shape and measure its volume.

Based on the molecular mass of the ingredients and the given volume, you will be able to answer pretty darn close what is the actual weight of the particle.

This is the difference between the measuring methods.

FYI, in the human body there is almost at any given time roughly on average 700000 of those 1 trillion bits of DHT per one liter of blood.

When a blood sample is collected, merely 4 to 5ml are extracted.

The amount of DHT present in that sample is truly minute.

&#160;

In one recent study, more than 180 pedigreed samples were analyzed in cooperation with the Endocrine Research Laboratory and the University&#160;of&#160;Colorado Health Sciences Center, by comparing DHT values measured using an enzyme assay method with the DHT values obtained by LCMS.

A lower correlation between the enzyme assay and LCMS methods for serum DHT than for serum T has been observed.

Serum DHT concentrations measured by LCMS were on average only 59&#37; of those obtained with the enzyme assay method.

Simply put, if the enzyme assay method says 500, the real value is actually 293. And this was verified multiple times.

&#160;

In the case of the enzyme assay method, the various factors explained above, play an equal or even greater impact on the real value of DHT.

According to our prior comparative testes, the difference in value varies between 40% and 80%, meaning the enzyme assay method will show either a higher or a lower value that varies within the range of the above percentages, but never identical or within acceptable limits of 3% variation.

The above text in numbers:

1 validated DHT sample tested using LCMS yielded the value of 963

2 same validated sample using enzyme assay method yielded the value of 1665

3 same validated sample using enzyme assay method with alternative handling protocol yielded the value of 589

4 acceptable variations would be values between 935 and 992

None of the assay methods correlated the results within the acceptable reference range, showing large variations, and as such being unacceptable as valid results.

&#160;

For the past decade, LCMS is hailed as being the *golden standard* in measuring really small amounts of substances, such as DHT and other biological markers, previously thought impossible or extremely difficult to be accurately measured.

Due to its high accuracy, it is actually the only method validated and generally accepted by the scientific and research community when it comes to measuring accurately small traces of specific substances.

All other assays have their strong points and their specific applications, but their affinity to fail in delivering constant, accurate and consistent results in this department, make them an unreliable and a poor choice.

&#160;

It is our belief that in order to ensure a high level of quality of the product and to endure the credibility amongst the medical and scientific community, we had to choose LCMS so that no doubts can be raised in connection with the accuracy of the measuring method.

&#160;

If you still do not believe the above, we challenge you to do one very simple thing.

Pick up the phone and call any medical research lab in the endocrinology field, at your choice, and ask this simple question to their medical biologist:

“If I want to measure my DHT, which method should I choose for the best and most accurate result? The enzyme assay method or the LCMS method?”

The answer will be invariably LCMS. Go ahead, try it and let all the readers of this post know.

You chose to disregard any form of sensible judgment and you probably went straight for the least reliable method.

&#160;

&#160;

Understanding the user's need for proof

We understand the user's need for factual proof of the product's efficacy.

Since the product's main function is not to provide direct hair growth, many new users unfamiliar to the brand, asked us the "how do I know it works?" question.

The only definitive way to directly detect if and how well the product work, is by measuring the DHT level in blood.

It can happen (please do bother to consult the user manual!) that is some specific cases, as enumerated in the document, the product does not work or it has a greatly reduced efficacy (ie. severe genetic enzyme deficiency, various thyroid issues, endocrine dysfunction and several other situations).

This is no secret and we do not hide such details.

For this group of users, the product will simply be ineffective and we clearly state this aspect pretty much everywhere, so that they do not spend their money and waste their time trying it.

We make these details abundantly clear, not only on the site, not only in our shop, but also on the live support chat.

We do our best to manage the user’s expectations and we do not promise “a head full of hair” like other brands allege.

In the eyes of a genuine person, this is already a&#160;GREEN FLAG.

&#160;

We always encourage the potential prospects – that is people that are undecided and just try to shop around – to stick with their routine if they found one that works for them.

It is not in our interest to do this if we were in for a quick buck and it is not in their benefit to keep hopping from one treatment to another, if the one they use works ok for them.

This is yet another&#160;GREEN FLAG&#160;a genuine person would recognize.

&#160;

We always encouraged the users to perform a correct and complete DHT test, not just for the sake of proving or disproving our point, but also because it is also useful for the user to know such details.

This is another&#160;GREEN FLAG&#160;a genuine person would recognize and it is also the reason why we always supported our clients in performing such tests, the correct way, according to the testing protocol and using the best and most accurate test method, LCMS.

If we had something to hide or if we had good reason to purposely sustain a fraud, we hadn’t bother to offer such a massive wealth of technical and procedural details, and quite contrary, we would try to hide any possibility of the user having any sort of tests done.

As you can see by now, all the above things are an integral part of our company policy to conduct a correct and morally ethical business and these practices - in our opinion at least – are not the trademarks of a fraudulent company, as you so loudly claim.

The intelligent reader able to read between your&#160;noise, would beg to disagree with you and agree with our arguments.

&#160;

We also explain very clearly to everyone willing to follow such routine tests why they should not jump into a bus and stop at the first commercial lab that says they do DHT tests.

Most of the main stream commercial labs use the enzyme assay method simply because the method is portable, affordable for the lab, they can offer a cheap retail price for the clients and it is versatile (meaning they can perform various tests with it, not necessarily DHT measurements).

We also explain the test protocol with the do’s and don’ts.

Anyone who chooses to ignore our recommendations - like you did - will get “bad results”, as you generously scream in your post.

The “bad results” you claim are nothing but a failure of the method you yourself chose to pay for.

Whether you choose to believe the arguments above or not, is entirely up to you and frankly speaking,&#160;besides&#160;the point.

We completely understand your determination in believing your result is correct and the method is fine.

The reality is that each test method will give you a different reading.

The most accurate is the result given by LCMS and one can verify this at any moment, simply by educating himself about the topic.

&#160;

&#160;

Final thoughts with regard to your case, in specifics

Fortunately, we do understand your reaction and all our team is sympathetic to your call.

Naturally, we don’t agree with your attitude and the manner in which you present it, but well, we can only assume this has to do with your personal issues.

We believe that hair loss is a serious problem, not to be taken lightly.

Most of our colleague had at some point in time major issues and major concerns when it comes to this topic.

Internally, in our company, we help each other and we test new compounds and new formulations, on ourselves first, before we even offer the prototype for larger tests on our most loyal and trustworthy clients.

Contrary to your belief, we understand and we actually care about our customers.

Ever since the very moment of the conception of the product you so passionately oppose, we tested and studies various aspects of its evolution and the ways in which we can improve and better its effects.

&#160;

To reciprocate to your candor, we’d like to say that, unfortunately for you, you have squat.

You do not have a valid LCMS result. You have&#160;a&#160;result, but not&#160;the&#160;right&#160;&#160;method.

You have not even posted the results and/or the method used, for that matter.

You did not specify whether you followed the correct test protocol and/or if you respected the basic requirements, as indicated in the protocol.

You just scream <fraud/scam/lie>.

Regardless of what you choose to believe, screaming <fraud/scam/lie> when you do not have the correct data is not only unjust, unfounded and incorrect towards our brand, company, team, researches and all the people that invest their passion and time to make things happen.

It is also incorrect towards the readers of the forum.

It is incorrect and confusing for the inexperienced users that are looking for correct and complete information and not for sensational blasts, like your post is.

&#160;

If you are a legit user and if you indeed requested assistance from our team, it would be only fair if you amend your first post (the one on the first page of this thread) to include the following mentions:

1 you should mention that you did not even request the correct test protocol

2 you should mention that you did not respect our advice to use the test method as indicated by our team

3 you should mention that we did tell you not to use any other test method than the one indicated by our team, yet you choose anyway to disregard our advice

4 you should mention that you&#160;can not&#160;guarantee with 100% certainty that you actually followed the test protocol

5 you should be able to confirm that you do not suffer of any of the medical conditions, as required in the test protocol

&#160;

The above situations apply for&#160;JulioGP, where in his case we can confirm that he disregarded at least 3 of the 5 points above.

At least he is kind enough to admit that our point might be valid. You’re not.

All you do is just go on with baseless accusations, with zero support points, that further confuse the casual reader.

Without confirming or refuting the above requirements, your whole post is simply unfounded, lacks any form of solid arguments and must be as such completely disregarded by the diligent reader that understands the fact that measuring something with a random stick found on the side of the road does not equal measuring using a certified and verified unit.

We hope we got the message across and we’re happy to assist any concerned user, by e-mail.

&#160;

We thank the readers for their time!

----------


## ajays

Reposting my comment from the other thread to this parent thread...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...d=1#post134791




> I agree with swoosh. To start with, kudos to ryan and julio for their time and effort in getting blood tests done and publishing their results. But as I mentioned earlier there are and will always be 2 sides to a story and we definitely need to tone down the rhetoric,it's not going to be help any of us hair sufferers. 
> 
> Now, following are the reasons I am still sticking to the Keratene regimen.
> 
> - First and foremost, it's definitely helping my hair. Period. There is no doubt about the visible improvement seen by me and confirmed by my friends feedback related to my hair. Now, the question is about the DHT levels which I do not have. So at least for now, I am going to give Keratene the benefit of doubt regarding their argument related to the DHT blood test method.
> 
> - Second, after Julio and Ryan published the results on this forums, Keratene could have chosen to take the easy route by not responding to any of these comments similar to big companies like Merck, etc. But at least they have shown that they are passionate about these things and genuinely concerned about their brand integrity. 
> 
> - Third, regardless of the amount of the respect i have for ryan and julio I would rather rely on the support and endorsement that this company has from world renowned doctors/HT surgeons/HT clinics such as Feriduni, Prohairclinic etc etc. With all due to respect to everyone here, I would rather rely on these doctors endorsement than individual posts and comments. These docs would have definitely smelled a rat during the Keratene presentations and their own evaluations.
> ...


 





> Don't you find it prudent to let them come here and defend themselves first?  I realize you are frustrated, but you have made this very personal.  Their tone was a bit unprofessional but you were here in the forums bashing them first.
> 
> I am very interested in getting to the bottom of this as I too have spent a good deal of money on this product but all of your vitriol is muddying the waters.
> 
> Keep your cool and I am sure this will be resolved.  There are other parties who are implicated in this if the results have been falsified.  So far we have had no one without any vested interest (or qualified sources) chime in on the scientific legitimacy to their claim of testing methods.

----------


## doke

i bought mine way back when it first came out i still have the caps but did not use them all so i cannot say anything negative about the company only that when i asked for a discount i got it but still expensive and i am still on finast.
We all here have been dupped in one way or another and it is anoying to say the least but is ru58841 the real deal i bought that as well and also a warning in the uk about fake pharmacy online products that may do you harm.

----------


## doke

Looking at the pro clinic the pics show hair transplant patients if this keratene worked then why are they still doing hair transplants,also whats the difference between the keratene site and the pro clinic are they the same company.

----------


## JulioGP

My answer about the post o Kératene Company is here:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...t=13251&page=8

----------


## HARIRI

> Looking at the pro clinic the pics show hair transplant patients if this keratene worked then why are they still doing hair transplants,also whats the difference between the keratene site and the pro clinic are they the same company.


 doke, Keratene works similar to Propecia, It will prevent future hair loss but will never bring back the hair you lost. So you need a hair transplant in order to recover and retain your before image. Thats why most top HT clinics always ask you to take a DHT blocker so you dont need to come often as your donor can give you only 8000 grafts in average. Hope this explains.

----------


## ryan555

> doke, Keratene works similar to Propecia, It will prevent future hair loss but will never bring back the hair you lost. So you need a hair transplant in order to recover and retain your before image. Thats why most top HT clinics always ask you to take a DHT blocker so you dont need to come often as your donor can give you only 8000 grafts in average. Hope this explains.


 To be clear, Keratene does NOT work similar to Propecia.  Propecia lowers DHT in nearly 100% of people who take it, it is questionable as to whether Keratene does anything at all.

----------


## HARIRI

Guys I was searching the forums for Keratene reviews and I came across an interesting post in hairlossexperience.com by a member called mkwill:-

"I took part in their trials back in 2011 on this product and I got to experience various formulations they pushed down my throat. No side-effects for me personally but I heard from one of the doctors involved in the screening of the rest of the guys that some heavy duty athlete complained about tiredness or so. Anyway the guy was a sport freak or so. One extra bonus for me haaha ¬b` (unexpected though) after about half a year of popping pills I got some hair growing back on a previously a totally bald spot... on my leg! It was sweet to see that and it keeps going ok but it's not as hairy as the regions next to the spot. However the company went beyond any reasonable efforts to educate me that the product is strictly for the maintenance of the existing hair density and not for hair growth. So for the record, just to be clear, I do not say KAR is meant for hair growth. After the trial I saw the clinical presentation at a scientific meeting and the clinical tests show interesting results to say the least (and this is an understatement, just to be discreet and not advertise the product). From the papers I got for my trial the text sounds like this "Kératene alphactive Retard (I call it KAR) is not a direct enzyme inhibitor, but rather an indirect DHT depressor (lowering). The product does not interfere with 5ard (it just leaves the molecule intact) and it does not affect testosterone or other hormonal factors. It reduces DHT levels by preventing the chemical reduction of Testosterone into DHT. With Keratene alphactive retard you can "see" the direct effects by measuring your DHT levels in blood, prior to administration and after at least 7 days during administration. ". 
My personal results were like this: before KAR - DHT 1734pg/ml, after 8 days it dropped to 762, then after 2 weeks it dropped to 574 and during 8 months it stayed at around 560 - 580, which is very good. 
Up to this moment I feel good, I am happy with my own experience. 
From my point of view the problem with testing your own dht level is finding a proper lab that has the gear to run the test correctly. Dht is no longer a hot topic and it can be quite challenging to find a good lab. Best bet would be a university hospital or possibly at the endocrinology faculties they may still do dht. Contact the customer care from keratene if you want to ask something specific or so, they answer pretty quickly and you get (in my opinion) educated answers.
But anyway, don't just jump buying the stuff like that. Be smart, they still run some trials and if you're from the Belgium region you can jump in for free. The nasty part is that they require you to get your veins needled several times (actually lots of times, my veins are still blue and patchy) and if you're not a fan of long sharp pointy needles.... you're screwed. Go consult a professional doctor or so. Where are you from? Did you visit a doctor? If you're from Europe I can recommend you a few.
Anyway, based on my own experience, the product does not help much when you're in telogen effluvium, that crazy hair shedding when you're losing hairs in rapid tempo so if you're in "that" period of the year, just be patient, take care of yourself, lower the stress and take some vitamins. If you're already in a visible / advanced state of alopecia, save some cash and do either micropigmentation or a transplant (if you can afford it or depending on what you feel comfortable with). KAR will probably help you keep the normal hairs you have now but the biggest change will be made by ht."

----------


## Jcm800

One month taking x2 daily - nothing to report, just making a note.

----------


## youngin

I think everyone taking this product should be aware of this (from Keratene tech support):




> soy (products) may interfere not only with the effects provided by the Kératene capsules, but on a deeper level too. This is one of the reason why the product is actually intentionally not sold anywhere in Asia.


 


> a comparative uncontrolled trial conducted 3 years ago in Asia, on Kératene. The subjects ate whatever their heart desired, with odd consequences. Their DHT levels went up or remained unchanged when they were suppose to go down. On a closer observation, the study reveled that all, with no exception, ate soy and sterol-rich foods, which are typical for Asia.

----------


## Jcm800

I've lost faith in this product, where are they? They've got access to the site, doesn't look good at all really.

----------


## youngin

If you want information then email them. They seem to be very responsive.

----------


## HARIRI

"a comparative uncontrolled trial conducted 3 years ago in Asia, on Kératene. The subjects ate whatever their heart desired, with odd consequences. Their DHT levels went up or remained unchanged when they were suppose to go down. On a closer observation, the study reveled that all, with no exception, ate soy and sterol-rich foods, which are typical for Asia."

This is really interesting. Kinda worries me, because I eat Thai food twice a week. I dont mind if its unchanged in these 2 days but DHT level going up! No way. Where did you get this statement from Buddy?  :EEK!:

----------


## Ted

> I think everyone taking this product should be aware of this (from Keratene tech support):


 I thought soy products decreased DHT levels. As can be read here:
http://www.*****************/interact...te-Reduces-DHT

----------


## youngin

> This is really interesting. Kinda worries me, because I eat Thai food twice a week. I dont mind if its unchanged in these 2 days but DHT level going up! No way. Where did you get this statement from Buddy?


 I said where I got it. Keratene tech support. Via email.

----------


## youngin

> I thought soy products decreased DHT levels. As can be read here:
> http://www.*****************/interact...te-Reduces-DHT


 The study quoted at the first post is comparing Milk Protein Isolate to Soy products. It's not comparing a baseline. Milk has absolutely been proven to cause acne which is driven by DHT. I would not be surprised if Milk increased DHT levels. NO, I don't have a study to back that up, however I do have a study to backup the Milk/Acne connection if wanted.

----------


## HARIRI

Can anyone tell me which is more effective? Saw Palmetto or Keratene Alphactive Retard? Has anyone used saw palmetto before and is using Keratene at the moment? 

I would love to hear your opinion. These two are the only proven alternatives to Finasteride. Any idea please?

----------


## Julian P

> Can anyone tell me which is more effective? Saw Palmetto or Keratene Alphactive Retard? Has anyone used saw palmetto before and is using Keratene at the moment? 
> 
> I would love to hear your opinion. These two are the only proven alternatives to Finasteride. Any idea please?


 For me, saw palmetto didn't do that much, although I may have stopped using it too soon.  

Based on their own results, Kar would be more effective. But you can only know for sure if you try it yourself (for long enough and with blood tests).

----------


## UK_

SP does need time like all other treatments but the effects are minimal.

----------


## UK_

> Can anyone tell me which is more effective? Saw Palmetto or Keratene Alphactive Retard? Has anyone used saw palmetto before and is using Keratene at the moment? 
> 
> I would love to hear your opinion. These two are the only proven alternatives to Finasteride. Any idea please?


 Saw Palmetto - cheaper too.

----------


## HARIRI

> Saw Palmetto - cheaper too.


 Yeah, because I didn't see that dramatic change after 3 months of taking Keratene Alphactive Retard, it reduced the hair fall a bit but not that much difference than my previous HairOmega DHT product which is only $17 per bottle and contains super ingredients. I attached some photos of the product, you can have a look at it as I attached its photos (front and back). My Keratene supply will finish after 3 days. I may go back then to HairOmega DHT (Saw Palmetto 300mg+Beta Sitosterol 300mg+Other). Whats your opinion Guys?  :Confused:

----------


## Julian P

Three months is not enough to see dramatic changes. I gues even finasteride won't give you visible results in 3 months.
Don't ever expect something dramatic with each of the products we have nowadays, preservation is the best you should hope for.

----------


## Julian P

> I may go back then to HairOmega DHT (Saw Palmetto 300mg+Beta Sitosterol 300mg+Other). Whats your opinion Guys?


 
If you would go back to SP, 40-45% of active components is a pretty low. You should go for standardized saw palmetto, with +85% of them. If it does anything at all, you really need those components.

----------


## HARIRI

> If you would go back to SP, 40-45% of active components is a pretty low. You should go for standardized saw palmetto, with +85% of them. If it does anything at all, you really need those components.


 How about this one? 

http://images.vitaminimages.com/cdn/...L044648-NB.PDF

----------


## burtandernie

I used saw palmetto a long time ago as a first attempt at doing something. You need the standardized 85 percent sterols and I personally would go with gel caps because I feel they absorb better and that is often over looked.
For me saw palmetto had effects similar to finasteride. I quit and just figured im better off just using a low dose of propecia instead then I know its at least helping my hair

This is what I used although its a little pricey maybe you can find equivalent somewhere else.
http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp...953623.2104771

----------


## HARIRI

> This is what I used although its a little pricey maybe you can find equivalent somewhere else.
> http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp...953623.2104771


 I think this one is better, its a bit stronger 320mg and has Pygeum africanum Bark Extract too. Check it out:-

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp...953623.2104771

----------


## HARIRI

This is the ultimate one, standardized Saw Palmetto (85-95&#37 :Wink:  320mg and Sterol complex of 339mg. A super Saw Palmetto indeed... :Big Grin: 


http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...itosterol.html

http://www.lifeextensionvitamins.com/susawpa3liex.html

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension.../dp/B000LVI5FK

----------


## HARIRI

Just an update:-

After finishing 3 months supply of Keratene Alphactive Retard. I tried to switch to standardized Saw Palmetto (85-95%) 320mg temporary for 2 weeks but unfortuantely I found out that it affected my libido slightly. So I decided to get back to my old regime of taking one capsule of Keratene Alphactive Retard before bedtime and guess what my morning wood is back and my libido is fully restored. I really dont know what is the secret of this supplement  :Cool: 

I decided to stick with it and wait more. I got nothing to lose, also I will add CB into my regime as soon as possible along with Minox of course.

----------


## Jcm800

> Just an update:-
> 
> After finishing 3 months supply of Keratene Alphactive Retard. I tried to switch to standardized Saw Palmetto (85-95%) 320mg temporary for 2 weeks but unfortuantely I found out that it affected my libido slightly. So I decided to get back to my old regime of taking one capsule of Keratene Alphactive Retard before bedtime and guess what my morning wood is back and my libido is fully restored. I really dont know what is the secret of this supplement 
> 
> I decided to stick with it and wait more. I got nothing to lose, also I will add CB into my regime as soon as possible along with Minox of course.


 So, what are you saying?  The secret of which supplement? Keratene or SP?

----------


## HARIRI

> So, what are you saying?  The secret of which supplement? Keratene or SP?


 Keratene Alphactive Retard of course. It does NOT give me any sexual sides! My morning wood is hard as ever this week and my Libido is crazy. Its sides completely different than FIN and SP which is more sexual oriented. The expected sides of KAR is FATIGUE if used twice a day OR maybe if taken once in the morning! But if once before Bedtime then its TOTALLY FINE.

----------


## Jcm800

I do take it twice a day, no fatigue, no nothing -  may as well be sugar pills.

----------


## HARIRI

> I do take it twice a day, no fatigue, no nothing -  may as well be sugar pills.


 Then you are really lucky Bro, I took it twice a day for 2 weeks and started getting pain in my testicles and fatigue issues when I got back to once a day before bedtime, all the sides were gone.

I strongly believe if taken in the evening before bedtime then fatigue wont be felt as I will sleep right away but if taken in the morning then it will definitely be felt. 

I may ask them if its possible to take 2 capsules one time before bedtime instead of morning and evening. I'm just trying to avoid morning time, however I'm scared to get the testicle pain again  :Frown: 

By the way Jcm800, 

1) Since when have you been taking KAR twice a day?

2) Have you seen any results so far?

3) Are you taking anything with it? Oral or Topical???

----------


## Jcm800

I've been taking it twice daily for around 5 wks I guess. 

I also have been on MSM & vit c  for over a year. 

Alongside minox foam for over a year. 

Nothing has helped as far as I can tell. Hair is steadily getting worse .

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## Jcm800

Oh and trx2 for over 14 months. Stopped that now, completely useless, a scam.

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## HARIRI

> I've been taking it twice daily for around 5 wks I guess. 
> 
> I also have been on MSM & vit c  for over a year. 
> 
> Alongside minox foam for over a year. 
> 
> Nothing has helped as far as I can tell. Hair is steadily getting worse .


 Do you feel any positivism with Keratene Alphactive Retard? I didn't get any regrowth for the past 3 months but my hair loss got much better, I used to shed around 20 visible hairs during shower, with Keratene its down to 10 or less sometimes. This is it! You must have better results because you are taking it twice a day.

Im applying Minoxidil 5&#37; once a day before bedtime, Wash my hair with Alpecin double effect shampoo daily and Nizoral 2% once a day. I take Biotin and Vitamen B complex as extra supplements.

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## Jcm800

Nope, nothing positive to say about it, I wish I did have. Every ten minutes I think of taking finasteride, if this stuff helped I wouldn't be.

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## Jcm800

But having said that, I don't expect anything after 5 or 6 weeks,  But I'll take it for 3 months, might have an indication then if it's helping.

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## HARIRI

I just realized that I posted the #1000 post in this thread lol

This thread had 122,677 views, I wish all members in this forum who experienced the KAR will post their KAR experience in this thread.

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## kundun

I am taking Keratene 2 months now twice a day.
A number of weeks I felt very tired. Thought it was the change of the weather. Now feel normal again. Perhaps body gets used to it.
If it really does something no clue.

Is there still no-one with results of a blood test ?

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## UK_

> I am taking Keratene 2 months now twice a day.
> A number of weeks I felt very tired. Thought it was the change of the weather. Now feel normal again. Perhaps body gets used to it.
> If it really does something no clue.
> 
> Is there still no-one with results of a blood test ?


 Yes, the results showed that DHT levels came back higher.

So much for non-approved treatments eh?

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## jo5555

I started taking KaR a bit after this thread started. I've been on it for more or less 6 month taking 1 pill a day... 

my hairloss didn't regress, nor even stop... in other words in kept loosing more hair :|

During the first month or so, I was indeed feeling more tired than usual and the scalp itching was lower, but after some time, it came back again to normal.

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## Julian P

> Yes, the results showed that DHT levels came back higher.
> 
> So much for non-approved treatments eh?


 And he had the same high DHT-levels with 1mg of finasteride every other day. Taking 0,5mg every day his DHT levels were still a bit higher than his base-level. Not very trustworthy in my eyes.

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## ajays

Ok - Before and after pic attached. Pardon the picture quality, I have picked these from family pics. Completed 6 months on Keratene i.e. the capsules 2x/day and shampoo/serum 3 times a week + multivitamin (1x/day). I gave up on minox 6 months back, so wanted to try another topical & systemic combination.

Personally, I do feel there are improvements in my hair in terms of thickness, quality and fallen hair in the shower/comb + i am just glad that I do not have to use minox everyday/suffer from it's sides.

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## Jcm800

ajays - far as i can see, all you've posted about since joining this forum is Keratene, as a hairloss sufferer dont you have any other questions to ask on other topic's, just find it a bit odd that's all..

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## NeedHairASAP

> I just realized that I posted the #1000 post in this thread lol
> 
> This thread had 122,677 views, I wish all members in this forum who experienced the KAR will post their KAR experience in this thread.


 not unique views

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## Duke

hey guys - I dont have time to read the whole thread:

Is this Keratene stuff working or just another snake oil product??

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## Julian P

> hey guys - I dont have time to read the whole thread:
> 
> Is this Keratene stuff working or just another snake oil product??


 Some are deeply convinced it's a snake oil, but for me the jury is still out. 

My arguments:
Pro: - the company's own research looks good, they researched hormone values, which is where I think such a product should first look at
- For a smaller study they cooperated with the University of Ghent. This makes it almost impossible to produce false results.
- Backed by some doctors and big hairtransplant clinics as Prohair 

con: - two of the members showed negative results with their blood tests * 
- not clear what the ingredients are 

* but I do think at least one of the results was highly unreliable, another showed positive results, but he hasn't posted since. 


Judge yourself, maybe ajays photo is another pro argument, it seems his hair has thickened up somewhat, but his hairline actually looked pretty good to begin with.

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## HARIRI

> hey guys - I dont have time to read the whole thread:
> 
> Is this Keratene stuff working or just another snake oil product??


 In my opinion, this product works by reducing the amount of fallen a hair per day. I wont deny that at all. Its not as effective as Finasteride of course as it could halt hair loss and get you some regrowth at the crown area but at least its more effective as an oral alternative than Saw Palmetto. 

The greatest thing about it that it does NOT give me any sexual sides. My sex life is really great and my morning wood & libido is fully restored since switching from Saw Palmetto to Keratene Alphactive Retard. 

In my case, Finasteride killed my libido and caused me some ED, Saw Palmetto reduced my libido little bit and affected my morning wood somehow but didnt have any ED.

However keep in my mind that if you will take it in the morning, you may feel dizzy. That is why I'm taking it once a day before bedtime. Dizziness is the only side effect I encountered from this product. This is my honest judgement.  :Smile:

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## HARIRI

After all Keratene Alphactive Retard is a lifesaver to me for now. I could NOT trade my Sexual life with Hair. Balding will hurt me only but sexual issues will hurt me and my wife. I really wish one day that hair loss will be treated without screwing around with our libido and sexual life. This is the worst side effect in my opinion and I know young guys in the 20's starting taking Cialis or Viagra since starting Finasteride. This is so depressing! Why hair is connected to penis  :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown: 

Check this out  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  :-

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## ajays

Jcm800,

Fair point...and weird too, I do look back at my posts and I realise that I have just been a lurker on other threads on this forum. It is to be noted though that from past year I have been seeing aggressive thinning in my hairline and crown. I looked on the web and tv ads and the answer seemed to be Minoxidil, but that just backfired on me. I was looking for alternatives and I came across this forum among others. Read through pretty much all stuff on fin and other products. I did not feel the need to post anything in these threads cause I was convinced that I will never ever use Fin. Then earlier this year, I saw posts on Keratene on this and other forums, which got me interested. I did my research and decided to give it a try. 

I can understand your mistrust, but I don't really care. I don't owe anything to you or others on this forum. I have been and will continue to post my experience so far i.e. with Keratene, Minox etc etc and people should be adult enough to decide for themselves whether to use one particular product or the other, just like I did with Fin and Minox. You will notice in all my posts, I have just been stating the facts that I personally observe. I have not been yelling at the top of my voice trying to sell this stuff or convince others to use it. 

Also, I have not posted any pics since I started on Keratene even though quite a few folks have requested. Primary reason is that hair growth takes time as we all know. I wanted to use the product for at least 6 months before posting any pics. Personally I think it's just naive for people to expect improvements with any product within 3 months. That is just not possible. 

Having said the above, I will continue to post my experiences, even though my posting abilities/frequency may not be too up to people's expectations.





> ajays - far as i can see, all you've posted about since joining this forum is Keratene, as a hairloss sufferer dont you have any other questions to ask on other topic's, just find it a bit odd that's all..

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## ajays

Julian,

Thanks for the positive comment on my "before" pic. But honestly, I was just getting freaked out with the state of my hairline and crown compared to what I used to have earlier. It was just crazy to see my hair starting to go bad within a period of 1 year. If I look at my hair, I was more of a NW1 rapidly turning into NW2 or worse. I feel I am getting back to NW1, but I will let ppl judge for themselves. 

The points you mentioned below are the same I came up with before deciding to give this product a try. Reg the independent blood tests by other users i.e julio and ryan555, though I appreciate the time and effort they put in there are lots of open questions and doubts. First, Julio's blood test results may no sense whichever you look at it. It could be the ELISA method his lab uses or something else, I dont know but they just defy logic. This has been discussed in detail in this and other posts so I will not spend time on it again. Reg ryan555, he was pretty active in this forum for a brief period and now seems to have disappeared. I am really eager to know more updates from him.






> Some are deeply convinced it's a snake oil, but for me the jury is still out. 
> 
> My arguments:
> Pro: - the company's own research looks good, they researched hormone values, which is where I think such a product should first look at
> - For a smaller study they cooperated with the University of Ghent. This makes it almost impossible to produce false results.
> - Backed by some doctors and big hairtransplant clinics as Prohair 
> 
> con: - two of the members showed negative results with their blood tests * 
> - not clear what the ingredients are 
> ...

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## burtandernie

If it supposedly works through some interaction with DHT and multiple people get before/after tests and DHT is the same then it doesnt work.
Its also kind of expensive for maybe not even working and the time it takes to see any real result. That is the allure of snake oil for MPB the large amount of time it can just not work.

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## ajays

So are you saying finasteride gives instant results? Doctors advise to use fin for at least 6 months to 1 year to decide whether it works for an individual. 




> If it supposedly works through some interaction with DHT and multiple people get before/after tests and DHT is the same then it doesnt work.
> Its also kind of expensive for maybe not even working and the time it takes to see any real result. That is the allure of snake oil for MPB the large amount of time it can just not work.

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## burtandernie

No I was just saying from the test results people are posting here that it looks like this Keratene stuff does not work. Said nothing nor meant to infer anything about fin.

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## ajays

ah sure...you mean the couple of guys who posted blood test results? Results of one of the guys make no sense at all (based on the postings in this and other threads) and the second guy seems to have disappeared from the forum. 




> No I was just saying from the test results people are posting here that it looks like this Keratene stuff does not work. Said nothing nor meant to infer anything about fin.

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## HARIRI

> ah sure...you mean the couple of guys who posted blood test results? Results of one of the guys make no sense at all (based on the postings in this and other threads) and the second guy seems to have disappeared from the forum.


 I have been taking it continuously for 8 months. I got zero sides while with saw palmetto I got very little libido sides. I think its doing a great job as my shedding got much much better and I believe I got shock loss with it. I have a big faith in this product. Its better than nothing honestly and more proven then Saw Palmetto. I think its the best option for people who got sides with Finasteride.  :Big Grin:

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## burtandernie

> hey guys - I dont have time to read the whole thread:
> 
> Is this Keratene stuff working or just another snake oil product??


 This is exactly why its snake oil. They have not proven beyond a doubt it works I have not seen any journal published results or studies like say propecia has.
I would use propecia in a second before wasting time/money on this guessing what it might do
Its funny we have a 103 page thread about people guessing and taking some tests trying to show whether it might work for them or not. There is almost nothing in this whole thread proving much of anything

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## Dan26

yoo where my boy julio at???

very odd i am taking fin 0.25mg and it isn't lowering my DHT by barely anything...maybe there are exlpanations for these tests results

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## ajays

Dont mean offense, but I am sure burtandernie will now suggest you to stop taking fin as well.

We can keep going back and forth on this blood test debate. Truth of the matter is you don't know unless you actually try a product for atleast 3-6 months, and from product I mean fin, keratene, saw palmetto etc. It's upto you which one you choose.  




> yoo where my boy julio at???
> 
> very odd i am taking fin 0.25mg and it isn't lowering my DHT by barely anything...maybe there are exlpanations for these tests results

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## ryan555

> ah sure...you mean the couple of guys who posted blood test results? Results of one of the guys make no sense at all (based on the postings in this and other threads) and the second guy seems to have disappeared from the forum.


 I have not disappeared, I just don't see the point in beating a dead horse.  Julio and I had no response to this product.  There is a Greek forum where two members got blood tests and had no results.  The company that produces this stuff lashes out at detractors but won't actually respond to the valid questions raised and they have definitely used fake profiles to promote themselves (which they admitted on this site).  I have no vested interest in either promoting or criticizing this or any other product, I was just trying to be a good community citizen.  My testimony and common sense should tell you all you need to know.

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## Jcm800

I couldn't be bothered trialling this stuff after my three months ran out. Just had a bad feeling was being ripped off, got no regrets about quitting it either.

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## HARIRI

ryan555 and JCM800, Do you think that Saw Palmetto extract works better than Keratene Alphactive Retard as an oral Finasteride alternative???  :Confused:

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## burtandernie

I would advocate using propecia first or staying on that way before I would recommend something like this that probably does nothing but waste time/money.
That being said I dont like the idea of taking drugs period if your in good health.

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## PaddyBateman

> ryan555 and JCM800, Do you think that Saw Palmetto extract works better than Keratene Alphactive Retard as an oral Finasteride alternative???


 Hi Hariri,

Has KAR had a notable +ve affect on your hair then? 

Can you describe your experience on it so far?

I am looking to try it out myself. I know there's a lot of -ve comments on BTT about it, but the number of top hair transplant surgeons backing it, as well as the University of Ghent study, gives me some hope.

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## HARIRI

> Hi Hariri,
> 
> Has KAR had a notable +ve affect on your hair then? 
> 
> Can you describe your experience on it so far?
> 
> I am looking to try it out myself. I know there's a lot of -ve comments on BTT about it, but the number of top hair transplant surgeons backing it, as well as the University of Ghent study, gives me some hope.


 Guys, I have an announcement. I quit using KAR not because of any sides as I didn't get any with one pill a day regime but because I didn't have any noticeable results for more than 6 months. So I switched back to Standardized Saw Palmetto Extract as I don't see much difference between both of them. At least I know the ingredients of what I'm taking because KAR sounds mysterious. I asked many times about the breakdown of it and they kept telling me its confidential. Right now I'm using GNC HERBAL PLUS standardized saw palmetto twice a day as instructed. Good Luck Guys.  :Smile:

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## PaddyBateman

> Guys, I have an announcement. I quit using KAR not because of any sides as I didn't get any with one pill a day regime but because I didn't have any noticeable results for more than 6 months. So I switched back to Standardized Saw Palmetto Extract as I don't see much difference between both of them. At least I know the ingredients of what I'm taking because KAR sounds mysterious. I asked many times about the breakdown of it and they kept telling me its confidential. Right now I'm using GNC HERBAL PLUS standardized saw palmetto twice a day as instructed. Good Luck Guys.


 Ah ok, that's a shame that you didn't get the results you were after.

When you say you didn't see noticeable results, do you mean you didn't get regrowth, or you mean you didn't get any stabilisation even?

Have you read of anyone having clear positive results from it?

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## Dan26

^^^Paddy it is a big waste of money.

If you have tried fin and had sides, consider RU

If you haven't tried fin out of fear of sides, consider giving it a shot at a low dose.

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## JulioGP

> Guys, I have an announcement. I quit using KAR not because of any sides as I didn't get any with one pill a day regime but because I didn't have any noticeable results for more than 6 months. So I switched back to Standardized Saw Palmetto Extract as I don't see much difference between both of them. At least I know the ingredients of what I'm taking because KAR sounds mysterious. I asked many times about the breakdown of it and they kept telling me its confidential. Right now I'm using GNC HERBAL PLUS standardized saw palmetto twice a day as instructed. Good Luck Guys.


 I see that someone else found out the results, zero. I stopped posting here because it has been discredited about my exams, but I see you found on your own results. ZERO.

Not suspicious of people who are buying the products for testing, they make you save money on what does not work.

All others who did not believe, maybe believe now.

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