# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  Dermarolling Community Trial

## hellouser

As a result of the recent dermarolling study (found here and discussed here), a crossforum trial has been proposed to attempt to emulate and enhance the results of the study. Members of the private forums and public forums are free to join in and the results will be made public on every forum, regardless of participation. If you are interested in participating, please let me know. 

Participation minimally requires a 1.5mm dermaroller and an agreement to take monthly photos. You may have any current treatment regimen, but before joining the trial you must provide your detailed regimen. Participation does not require a membership to any private forum. 

You will be given detailed instructions on how to use the dermaroller including how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller according to one of the researchers on the study who has been contacted.  

The trial groups will be as follows:

*A.* Dermarolling + Minox (Study Control)
*B.* Dermarolling + PGE2 Daily + Minox
*C.* Dermarolling + PGE2 Daily + minox + PGD2 inhibitor (OC-Ethanol higher dose than previously used)

Within the PGE2 and PGD2 inhibitors use will be various concentrations. Each group was designed based on past studies demonstrating the role of PGE2, FGF9 and PGD2 in wounding induced neogenesis. For those unfamiliar, the team behind Follica have demonstrated that elevated levels of PGD2 inhibit the promotive effects of wounding and that the overexpression of FGF9 results in three to four times improved results in vivo. PGE2 is known to induce FGF9 over a 24 hour period in a bell response curve. 

PGE2 and PGD2 will be purchased from Kane. 

If interested please say so. Further, indicate which trial group you are interested in and any drugs you are currently taking. As stated, this is a trial being undertaken for the whole hair loss community not any one single forum. The results will be made publicly available per the organizers intentions.

Dermarollers are relatively cheap, between $10-20 on eBay. It would also be beneficial if members willing to take part in the trial posted their dermaroller as well.

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## huawei

I'll join in however I'll be starting propecia in conjunction with minox and nizoral next week as well.  So maybe add a group E for outliers doing their own thing.  

I'll be sure to give it a go on my hair line at least.

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## HARIRI

This is an interesting video about Microneedles and Minoxidil on You Tube:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc

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## Borealis

I'll be using Minoxidil 5&#37; twice a day except for the day I use the dermaroller. Nothing else is in my regimen.

I use Regaine 5% Foam and this dermaroller: 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZGTS-Luxur...item3a7ceaa396

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## doke

Interesting i have restarted the    dermoroller  with my new topical and oral regrime which i have stopped using scalpmed due to cost and now on topical 5% minoxidil+antiandrogen+sucralfate 5% and avodart  0.5mgs a day as im getting some regrowth with scalpmed but the cost is way too high and 5% sucralfate does offer regrowth for mpb.

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## doke

try this link http://www.follacure.com/t/sucralfate

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## doke

[QUOTE=doke;136617]try this link [url]http://www.follacure.com/t/sucralfate    this is the trial of sucralfate for alopecia and mpb

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## Knockin on NW4

be sure to use at least a 1.5mm roller. expect blood and pain! i used a 1mm with minox for a few months and noticed little to no improvement.  There is nothing new about derma rolling, this study just gives us some guidelines to follow. and their reults were phenomenal.

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## stilltrying

I will probably use this in combination with Minoxidil, but the chance is high that I will also add finasteride within a month. Otherwise I would gladly participate. I love the idea, even though it's always hard to make sure people are not using other methods. I would only recommend to also include a group for those who are only on Minoxidil and are not interested in adding the dermaroller.

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## Knockin on NW4

in that video, the guy doesnt understand how wounding works, positive results are not from increased absorption,  but from the natural expression of growth factors post wounding. thats why u need to wait at least 5-7 days between wounding sessions. 

Pge2 increases fgf9 expression wich allows for folicle neogenesis post wounding. without pge2 or minox, wich increases pge2  :Smile:   , folicle neogenesis cant occur, just scarring that can inhibit growth. This is essentially Follica's method. 


yes rolling increases absorption,  but that isnt the goal of this trial. thats why they did not apply minox 24hr after wounding in the study, to rule out increased absorption being the cause of regrowth. and u MUST wait at least five days bewteen roll sesions for the body to express these growth factors .


ps 1mm is too short , ive tried this,  go with 1.5 or 2mm, no pain no gain. unless u incorporate topical lidocaine before wounding  :Wink:

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## Conpecia

> in that video, the guy doesnt understand how wounding works, positive results are not from increased absorption,  but from the natural expression of growth factors post wounding. thats why u need to wait at least 5-7 days between wounding sessions.


 
READ THIS STAYTHICK. this is another reason why you shouldn't dermaroll more than once a week bud.

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## StayThick

Knockin...what has been your experience with dermarolling? Any results from a personal stand-point?

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## StayThick

> READ THIS STAYTHICK. this is another reason why you shouldn't dermaroll more than once a week bud.


 I hear you Conpecia, I'm following this thread closely...but yea, I guess that makes sense. Although I've had no issues and have seen regrowth along my stubborn hairline doing it 3x a week.

I might apply more pressure when doing this moving forward and wait the recommended 5-7 days. Let's see if these "growth factors" really come in to play.

I'm all about trying things differently or modifying what I think is right if something different mentioned on here might be more efficient.

I'll let you all know how the change effects me moving forward.

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## hellouser

What should the dosage of PGE2 be?

According to this, the molecular weight of PGE2 is 352:

https://www.caymanchem.com/app/templ.../catalog/14010

That looks pretty light and easy to penetrate skin, should work awesome, just like RU and even better with dermarolling, perhaps best when exfoliating skin and no more than 30 minutes after washing hair since sebum is then produced which does affect penetration.

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## Knockin on NW4

my 1.5mm will arrive friday, im going out of town this weekend so i will start monday. i used a 1mm once every 5-7 days with minox for a few months around february but didnt see enough improvement to put up with the hassle. also my old  roller was a 540 count wich actually causes micro cuts instead of micro holes.... not sure if tnis had something to do with lack of results. however,  it was great for getting rid of some stretch marks i had. i was quite impressed.  i do shave my head with a stubble guard  so the roller should get great penetration and results will be quickly noticable.



as far as pge2 dosage... no one really knows. StoicOne is getting us a great deal on some, like $125 for 50mg that should last at least a couple of months. in the vitiligo pge2 trials re pigmentation of the skin was seen with just 0.5mg daily in a topical solution. so we know that that is a safe amount and that would make 50mg last 3+ months.

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## tdo

Knockin, how can i get on the gb for the pge2?

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## Knockin on NW4

> Knockin, how can i get on the gb for the pge2?


 its through SAGA... i cant get u in there, i just joined. but maybe u can get dinoprostone, it is for inducing labour for prego chicks lol. but it is pge2. its hard to get a prescription unless u find it online or through a VERY forward thinking dermatologist

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## ge77inhigh

Just got my 1.5 mm dermaroller from amazon for 10 bucks. Will use it 2x a week with minox and  along with ru 10mg x2 for 1 hour wash and rinse. If this work then this is the cheapest effective treatment to mpb.

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## hellouser

Would anyone advise getting a 2mm dermaroller considering it will be rolling over a head WITH hair that will make a 2mm dermaroller more like 1.5mm considering it has to go through the layer of hair?

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## Knockin on NW4

> Would anyone advise getting a 2mm dermaroller considering it will be rolling over a head WITH hair that will make a 2mm dermaroller more like 1.5mm considering it has to go through the layer of hair?


 it makes since, i thought the exact same thing

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## bananana

What do you think about *this*?

LED light is probably bullshit, but dermaroller looks legit. They suggest up to .75 mm for hair loss, but I guess more is better in this case.

I used .5 mm dermaroller for 2 months now, before applying divine herbal oil, and I say it helped the general condition, less itch, less oil, no regrowth so far...

I hesitate on using minox because washing my hair every day due to grease is really not so appealing.  :Frown:

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## doke

hi why not use not greasy minox foam? also guys my mix of sucrafate has not mixed prop and the sachats are powder so it needs to be filtered it anyone else tries it also kane from kouting has said he can supply sucralfate for free if you order ru or pgd2 as he said its very cheap.
I think i will return to my scalpmed and use up the rest of the 3 months pack as i have only been using it with the silica oral and biotin for nearly a month as when i look close in the mirror im seeing very fine hairs appearing on bald areas.

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## JDW

> Just got my 1.5 mm dermaroller from amazon for 10 bucks. Will use it 2x a week with minox and  along with ru 10mg x2 for 1 hour wash and rinse. If this work then this is the cheapest effective treatment to mpb.


 Hey man, Any chance of showing the dermaroller you bought? Or does anyone else have any recommendations.
Thanks

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## bigentries

What type of derma roller is everyone going to use?

I have one packed with needles, but I've seen others that have the needles very spaced.

I think that's the reason why I'm experiencing very little pain even when putting pressure, I don't think the needles are going all in

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## Bocaj

Dermajet

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## doke

Anyone that knows what im using scalpmed i have decided to keep the sucralfate minox till ive used up my four months products but i will have to filter the sucralfate as its not mixed properly it feels like grit on your scalp.
Jacob whats your thoughts on the sucrafate trials i posted link of?

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## Bocaj

You'll have to remind me/repost the trials....please.

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## doke

> You'll have to remind me/repost the trials....please.


 http://www.follacure.com/t/sucralfate

ok jacob :Smile:

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## sosa56

> As a result of the recent dermarolling study (found here and discussed here), a crossforum trial has been proposed to attempt to emulate and enhance the results of the study. Members of the private forums and public forums are free to join in and the results will be made public on every forum, regardless of participation. If you are interested in participating, please let me know. 
> 
> Participation minimally requires a 1.5mm dermaroller and an agreement to take monthly photos. You may have any current treatment regimen, but before joining the trial you must provide your detailed regimen. Participation does not require a membership to any private forum. 
> 
> You will be given detailed instructions on how to use the dermaroller including how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller according to one of the researchers on the study who has been contacted.  
> 
> The trial groups will be as follows:
> 
> *A.* Dermarolling + Minox (Study Control)
> ...


 I'm not sure if I could be eligible for this trial becuae I'm on finasteride but would you be able to make available the information on how to use the dermaroller as per the trial that this community trial you are proposing is based on, I would really like to add dermarolling into my regime. Also can anyone who has tried dermarolling before and found that it helped them provide some details on the same areas i.e. how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller and also information on how to clean them?

Thanks

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## hellouser

> I'm not sure if I could be eligible for this trial becuae I'm on finasteride but would you be able to make available the information on how to use the dermaroller as per the trial that this community trial you are proposing is based on, I would really like to add dermarolling into my regime. Also can anyone who has tried dermarolling before and found that it helped them provide some details on the same areas i.e. how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller and also information on how to clean them?
> 
> Thanks


 There's no reason you can't try dermarolling yourself, I think it'd be beneficial to see dermarolling + whatever else and take a look at the best results from all angles.

Try it out while on finasteride and post your results! We're all fighting this disease together  :Smile:

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## sosa56

Would I be able to have a look at the detail instructions though even if I didn't end up posting my pics online? I know this seems a little selfish as effort has been expended to get the instructions so something should be given in return but I just don't really want to put my hair up for all to see  :Frown: . But the reason I came here in the first place is to benefit from the knowledge and resourcefulness of some of the cool members on here!

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## hellouser

> Would I be able to have a look at the detail instructions though even if I didn't end up posting my pics online? I know this seems a little selfish as effort has been expended to get the instructions so something should be given in return but I just don't really want to put my hair up for all to see . But the reason I came here in the first place is to benefit from the knowledge and resourcefulness of some of the cool members on here!


 I have a feeling everyone will be rolling differently. Watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc

I think I'm going to be using a similar approach;

4 times up and down, 4 times side to side, 4 times diagonally and another 4 times diagonally on the other direction and then finish it off with general rolling all over the head. Keep in mind that he says there's no blood when he uses the microneedling, but that may not be a good thing, as it may mean he's not going in deep enough. The theory is that microneedling will cause wounding, similar to Follica's treatment, which when used with Minoxidil will heighten levels of PGE2 and then FGF9 which may cause regrowth.

Check this video as well (ignore the PRP shit):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuXJbqDlNug

You can use photobucket.com or tinypic.com to post photos of progress.

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## sosa56

Interesting, thanks alot for posting those videos, that's really helpful. I know this isnt the right place to post this but since you seem to be online hellouser, what is your response to the point of view that regardless of all of these other treatments in the pipeline (histogen etc.) couldn't the ultimate solution for nearly everyone be to wait until CB-03-01 comes out and then get a hair transplant and then just maintain the results using CB?

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## hellouser

> Interesting, thanks alot for posting those videos, that's really helpful. I know this isnt the right place to post this but since you seem to be online hellouser, what is your response to the point of view that regardless of all of these other treatments in the pipeline (histogen etc.) couldn't the ultimate solution for nearly everyone be to wait until CB-03-01 comes out and then get a hair transplant and then just maintain the results using CB?


 I have a feeling CB is just finasteride on steroids... literally, as CB is a steroid, lol. The benefit is that its supposed to be 4X as effective without a drop in libido or the risk of erectile dysfunction. However, I don't believe at all that CB will create new hair follicles, but rather improve density and perhaps work a little around the hairline with miniaturized  hairs. Bald spots, I'm almost certain, will remain as bald spots. I don't even think replicel, histogen or aderans could do anything about bald spots. Thats where either Jahoda, Lauster, Tsuji labs or the IBN team in Singapore... or perhaps a combination of Replicel/Histogen plus a hair transplant. There's also Follica which is apparently working on a wounding device to use with FGF9 to regenerate hair follicles, though that is the whole point of the dermarolling experiment, a cheap mans versions of Follica. Let's hope it works. Perhaps we could have some success with minox + wounding + pge2 + pgd2 inhibitors + dht inhibitors.

We should all try and maintain regardless, CB is the most promising though.

I suppose if CB does work for everyone and does regrow or at least maintain, then yes its possible that a hair transplant with CB could be a good solution where some men have had success with FUE/FUT and Finasteride while maintaining their results. Although its still a risk.

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## hellouser

Something to think about**:




> In one embodiment, the present invention provides a method for generating an HF in a scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region of a subject, comprising the steps of: (a) disrupting an epidermis of the scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region; and (b) contacting the scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region with minoxidil, thereby generating an HF in a scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region of a subject.


 From Cotsarelis' paper found at:

https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CDUQ6AEwAA

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## the_dude78

What type of dermaroller is recommended for this? There are some with 540 needles and some with only 192 where the needles are not as tightly spaced. Any suggestions?

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## hellouser

> What type of dermaroller is recommended for this? There are some with 540 needles and some with only 192 where the needles are not as tightly spaced. Any suggestions?


 I think its all the same. 192 needles will basically mean you'd have to roll more. I'd go with the 540 needles to make sure you don't miss any spots.

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## Hal0

Hi, i bought a 1 mm Dermaroller, this caliber is enough or i require to have the 1.5mm? Thank you

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## hellouser

> Hi, i bought a 1 mm Dermaroller, this caliber is enough or i require to have the 1.5mm? Thank you


 Use at least 1.5mm, 2mm if you can. Follicles are quite deep underneath the skin. No pain, no gain!

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## Pentarou

Regular derma-rolling isn't going to cause scarring of the scalp tissue, is it?  :Confused:

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## hellouser

> Regular derma-rolling isn't going to cause scarring of the scalp tissue, is it?


 Women and men use it for acne, wrinkles, etc. already. I haven't heard of reported scarring so we should be fine.

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## greatjob!

> Regular derma-rolling isn't going to cause scarring of the scalp tissue, is it?


 It is actually being used as a treatment for scarring, so I would think that is not an issue

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## PrettyFly83

Hi All

First post here but long time reader.I added derma rolling to my regime about two months ago and without being overly optimistic I feel I'm getting some significant regrowth.

Quick facts, age 30, NW5 going on 6. Regime has been nothing until 3 months ago when I decided to try get some hair back before I left it too long. Started loosing at 21, NW4 at around 25 and shaved my hair No.0 since. Started Minox 3 months ago, added derma rolling 1 month in, hoping to get increased absorption. Added Vita C and MSM around same time. Been sticking to it since. Never done Finasteride but have and am still seriously considering.

Biggest plus for all reading this is that Ive been taking pics fairly frequently so maybe people can add their opinion on my presumed regrowth or not....hopefully the pic has uploaded

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## PrettyFly83

some more zoomed in shots...didnt realize they get down scaled so much...

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## Arashi

Can you maybe upload the pictures ? Use http://tinypic.com/ for example.
At first glance your results look very good but it's hard to tell because of the cropped pictures.

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## the_dude78

> I think its all the same. 192 needles will basically mean you'd have to roll more. I'd go with the 540 needles to make sure you don't miss any spots.


 Makes sense, however this guy in the link talks about the different needle sizes, and in the comments he recommends 192 needles since 540 will only cause unnecessary trauma and damage... I will do some more research before I decide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzQisQzItIU

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## hellouser

> Makes sense, however this guy in the link talks about the different needle sizes, and in the comments he recommends 192 needles since 540 will only cause unnecessary trauma and damage... I will do some more research before I decide.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzQisQzItIU


 But the damage is exactly what needs to be done; wounding and regeneration with minoxidil causing a chain reaction of events... Minox --> PGE2 --> FGF9 --> Hair Follicle Neogenesis

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## PrettyFly83

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...dd798.jpg.html

Hi Arashi

Hopefully you can view this will upload the originals too

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## hellouser

> Hi All
> 
> First post here but long time reader.I added derma rolling to my regime about two months ago and without being overly optimistic I feel I'm getting some significant regrowth.
> 
> Quick facts, age 30, NW5 going on 6. Regime has been nothing until 3 months ago when I decided to try get some hair back before I left it too long. Started loosing at 21, NW4 at around 25 and shaved my hair No.0 since. Started Minox 3 months ago, added derma rolling 1 month in, hoping to get increased absorption. Added Vita C and MSM around same time. Been sticking to it since. Never done Finasteride but have and am still seriously considering.
> 
> Biggest plus for all reading this is that Ive been taking pics fairly frequently so maybe people can add their opinion on my presumed regrowth or not....hopefully the pic has uploaded


 I can clearly see new hair follicles!

What kind of dermaroller are you using and how many needles does it have?

Thanks for posting!!

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## bananana

> some more zoomed in shots...didnt realize they get down scaled so much...


 :O

these results are VERY good! Congrats man, there are clearly new (old) hairs growing on your scalp.

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## the_dude78

a bit more info http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/

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## bigentries

> But the damage is exactly what needs to be done; wounding and regeneration with minoxidil causing a chain reaction of events... Minox --> PGE2 --> FGF9 --> Hair Follicle Neogenesis


 My guess is that less needles are better because of the pressure

Think of the bed of nails trick, the nails don't penetrate because all the pressure is well distributed. I'm afraid the same happens with dermarollers, I also have one with 540 needles and I think the reason why I don't feel too much pain is because the needles never penetrate that far

I will buy one with less needles and then report my experience

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## hellouser

> My guess is that less needles are better because of the pressure
> 
> Think of the bed of nails trick, the nails don't penetrate because all the pressure is well distributed. I'm afraid the same happens with dermarollers, I also have one with 540 needles and I think the reason why I don't feel too much pain is because the needles never penetrate that far
> 
> I will buy one with less needles and then report my experience


 Excellent point! That also may hold true for getting into spots where there is already hair, should give even better penetration.

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## hellouser

> a bit more info http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/


 Thank you! This is great!

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## PrettyFly83

Thanks guys

Ive been quietly optimistic about the results but every week it seems to be getting stronger. I think we're onto something here and I have to say, without this forum I would never have tried anything like this! Lets just hope those small hairs continue getting thicker and stronger but they are literally covering 80&#37; of my previous bald spots.

My Regime detailed as follows:
1. 2 x minox (generic) morning and evening applications.
2. 1 gram Vita C & 2 grams MSM (now doing for health benefits but started because of the VitC MSM thread).
3. Weekly derma rolling with minox immediately after. 
4. Nizoral Shampoo every two days. 

My derma roller is a standard 0.5mm 192 needle titanium tipped model - when I researched them, various brochures said "0.5mm for hair growth through increased topical absorption". When I roll it hurts though, not sure if its because of my thin skin, lack of hair or the pressure I use. I get a lot of blood! I then minox immediately after and it burns a bit probably from the alcohol in the minox. Stops bleeding within seconds. I roll in a multiway criss cross pattern over the entire scalp.

I'll keep this regime going until end November giving it 6 months. If it works, GREAT, forum closed and we can all get on with our lives, if not add another failure to the endless list and keep trying.

Thoughts? Opinions?

This looks like mine but I have the 0.5mm model
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZGTS-Luxur...item3a7ceaa396

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## walrus

Have you noticed any regrowth on the temples?

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## hellouser

> Thanks guys
> 
> Ive been quietly optimistic about the results but every week it seems to be getting stronger. I think we're onto something here and I have to say, without this forum I would never have tried anything like this! Lets just hope those small hairs continue getting thicker and stronger but they are literally covering 80% of my previous bald spots.
> 
> My Regime detailed as follows:
> 1. 2 x minox (generic) morning and evening applications.
> 2. 1 gram Vita C & 2 grams MSM (now doing for health benefits but started because of the VitC MSM thread).
> 3. Weekly derma rolling with minox immediately after. 
> 4. Nizoral Shampoo every two days. 
> ...


 Awesome contribution!

I think I'm gonna splurge some dough on the same dermaroller, would like to mimic what guys WITH success are using.

I'm fairly active and have been keeping a pretty detailed log of my own results, so you guys can be sure if I get results I'll post photos.

My current regimen is ONLY minoxidil and nizoral. I'm gonna be ordering CB off Kane soon and will add that to my arsenal. I will probably use RU a few times to kickstart things, probably around the time I dermaroll. I have *some* left over, but it won't last long.

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## JDW

Thanks for the link, interesting about the smaller length, not sure to go with that or what the trial used...

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## hellouser

> Thanks for the link, interesting about the smaller length, not sure to go with that or what the trial used...


 Its not a definitive answer though. Skin thickness isn't the same on every persons scalp. You're probably better off getting a 1.5mm roller as it SHOULD penetrate, anything too short and you wont cause the minimal wounding and you'll probably just end up having to get a dermaroller with longer needles.

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## DanWS

I dont use minoxidil but I'm on fin... would it be worth me trying this out or is minoxidil essential to the results?

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## hellouser

> I dont use minoxidil but I'm on fin... would it be worth me trying this out or is minoxidil essential to the results?


 Yes, its absolutely mandatory. Minoxidil is whats supposed to create regrowth, Dr. Cotsarelis' findings even state that in his published paper. I've posted a link to it in this thread.

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## JDW

> Its not a definitive answer though. Skin thickness isn't the same on every persons scalp. You're probably better off getting a 1.5mm roller as it SHOULD penetrate, anything too short and you wont cause the minimal wounding and you'll probably just end up having to get a dermaroller with longer needles.


 Thanks for that, will go with 1.5mm/192 needles then as this seems to be the best combo

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## hellouser

Found another article on wounding and dermarolling, this is just as interesting:

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_...eneration.html




> We showed that wound healing triggered an embryonic state in the skin which made it receptive to receiving instructions from wnt proteins, says senior author George Cotsarelis, MD, Associate Professor of Dermatology. The wnts are a network of proteins implicated in hair-follicle development.


 Funny how this is from 2007!!

Via: http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarollin...ut-minoxidil)/

Note how the source of which I found the Cotsarelis article states without minoxidil. Yet in his newer paper he states WITH minoxidil new hair follicles are created from wounding.

Perhaps we just continue wounding/dermarolling until enough hair follicles are created to cover the head completely and then call it a day... or year, lol.

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## hellouser

I just ordered my dermaroller, 1.5mm and 192 microneedles:

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00A...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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## Arashi

> http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...dd798.jpg.html
> 
> Hi Arashi
> 
> Hopefully you can view this will upload the originals too


 Thanks !! Truly amazing results, congratulations !!

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## oppenheimer82

> Hi All
> 
> First post here but long time reader.I added derma rolling to my regime about two months ago and without being overly optimistic I feel I'm getting some significant regrowth.
> 
> Quick facts, age 30, NW5 going on 6. Regime has been nothing until 3 months ago when I decided to try get some hair back before I left it too long. Started loosing at 21, NW4 at around 25 and shaved my hair No.0 since. Started Minox 3 months ago, added derma rolling 1 month in, hoping to get increased absorption. Added Vita C and MSM around same time. Been sticking to it since. Never done Finasteride but have and am still seriously considering.
> 
> Biggest plus for all reading this is that Ive been taking pics fairly frequently so maybe people can add their opinion on my presumed regrowth or not....hopefully the pic has uploaded


 nice!

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## greatjob!

I think I'm also going to pick up a derma roller and give this a shot. Seems easy enough and couldn't hurt. Would be pretty crazy if this ends up being a good treatment, as its been around for a while and been overlooked, probably because it seems too simple to be the solution. I will, like always, remain cautiously optimistic.

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## DanWS

> Funny how this is from 2007!!
> 
> Via: http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarollin...ut-minoxidil)/
> 
> Note how the source of which I found the Cotsarelis article states without minoxidil. Yet in his newer paper he states WITH minoxidil new hair follicles are created from wounding.


 That's interesting.... perhaps it could be worth a shot for those of us not using minox, then. Nothing to lose I suppose.

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## Barron

What's the consensus on applying Minox immediately after scalp rolling? The participants in the study did not apply Minox on the day they scalp rolled, while PrettyFly83, who saw great results as well, did.  

When I applied Minox directly after scalp rolling, I got some pretty undesired side-effects during the hours afterwards; but applying Emu oil right afterwards is working great so far.

----------


## hellouser

> What's the consensus on applying Minox immediately after scalp rolling? The participants in the study did not apply Minox on the day they scalp rolled, while PrettyFly83, who saw great results as well, did.  
> 
> When I applied Minox directly after scalp rolling, *I got some pretty undesired side-effects during the hours afterwards;* but applying Emu oil right afterwards is working great so far.


 What were the side effects?

----------


## hellouser

> http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...dd798.jpg.html
> 
> Hi Arashi
> 
> Hopefully you can view this will upload the originals too


 Hey PrettyFly,

Can you tell us how long you've been losing your hair? 

From the before photos, you look like pretty much a full norwood 6 with almost a completely slick bald head from crown to front of head. Is this a fair assumption?

----------


## Barron

I felt light headed, had an increased/rapid heart rate, and got a general feeling of uneasiness. I remember searching on the internet/forums afterwards and found some people who experienced similar effects, but also many who didn't experience anything. I also came across some general warnings...i.e: http://tiny.cc/s8c00w

----------


## greatjob!

> I felt light headed, had an increased/rapid heart rate, and got a general feeling of uneasiness. I remember searching on the internet/forums afterwards and found some people who experienced similar effects, but also many who didn't experience anything. I also came across some general warnings...i.e: http://tiny.cc/s8c00w


 That's why you don't use minoxidil on the same day you use the derma roller

----------


## hellouser

> That's why you don't use minoxidil on the same day you use the derma roller


 Isn't that the best window of opportunity though for maximum absorption and stimulating growth?

----------


## greatjob!

> Isn't that the best window of opportunity though for maximum absorption and stimulating growth?


 From the study isn't is about wounding and stimulating growth pathways not absorption. In the study they didn't use minox on the days they used the dema roller. Systemic absorption of minox can be dangerous.

----------


## greatjob!

From the study:




> Microneedling procedure
> 
> The shaven scalp was prepared with betadine and normal saline. A dermaroller of 1.5 mm sized needles was rolled over the affected areas of the scalp in a longitudinal, vertical, and diagonal directions until mild erythema was noted, which was considered as the end point of the procedure. *All patients were instructed not to apply Minoxidil on the day of procedure and to resume its application only 24 h after the Microneedling procedure.*

----------


## hellouser

I know the study states a 24 hour waiting period, but other than the potential system side effects... why?

----------


## mari0s

> a bit more info http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/


 how about the difference between titanium and surgical steel? In this site they sell a dermaroller claim to be made on surgical steel wich, i think, it could be better

----------


## SOTF

> I know the study states a 24 hour waiting period, but other than the potential system side effects... why?


 I think you're answering your own question, spinning in circles. The wounds the 1.5mm roller create are quite deep. My entire scalp was bleeding with enough force to get any type of penetration.

----------


## PrettyFly83

Hey guys

I just wana make sure people understand I didn't follow the study/theory because I started my regime before it was published - if I had started after I would have definitely followed their routine of 1.5mm roller and no minox on rolling days. These are doctors/scientists who (I'm assuming) have some facts and science behind their choices. I was just following the roller marketing by trying to firstly decrease my sunspots (which has worked by the way) and secondly increase absorption of minox. By the way, has anyone tried to contact the authors of the study to get more detail on their method? I think this is key!

Onto queries:




> Thanks for the link, interesting about the smaller length, not sure to go with that or what the trial used...


 I'd recommend the 1.5mm as the study used. The reason I think I'm seeing results is, unlike other people I get pain and blood from a 0.5mm which shows me I'm wounding deep enough. This could be either due to 1. I have thin skin  2. My lack of hair allowing the needles to penetrate deep 3. My method of rolling which includes pressure and frequency. If my results start to slow I will likely upgrade to a 1.5mm.




> Have you noticed any regrowth on the temples?


 The re growth has been slowest as the places I lost my hair first. Temples and the top of my head, in front of crown thinned around 7 years ago so it makes sense that regrowth is the most stubborn here. I will try find a descent before and current picture of the temple area and upload to photobucket.




> What's the consensus on applying Minox immediately after scalp rolling? The participants in the study did not apply Minox on the day they scalp rolled, while PrettyFly83, who saw great results as well, did.  
> 
> When I applied Minox directly after scalp rolling, I got some pretty undesired side-effects during the hours afterwards; but applying Emu oil right afterwards is working great so far.


 Again I feel follow the study but its up to you. If you are getting side effects however, rather avoid straight after. I haven't felt anything after. Forgot to add, I also use Emu oil on occasion as the generic minox really dries out my scalp and the Emu helps moisturize. Whether the science behind it is true I'm not sure but I just prefer it over some chemical based moisturizer.




> Hey PrettyFly,
> 
> Can you tell us how long you've been losing your hair? 
> 
> From the before photos, you look like pretty much a full norwood 6 with almost a completely slick bald head from crown to front of head. Is this a fair assumption?


 Hey Hellouser, yip I'd say pretty much NW6 if not I would be by the end of year. I have looked through old photo's on facebook to track my progression and can summarize it as such:
19: Started noticing increased hair fall in my study book etc
21: Noticed temples thinning (NW1.5)
23: Increased Temple and top thinning (NW2)
24: Significant thinning on top (NW3)
25-26: Loss of density all over (NW4 but could trace NW6 thinning - started buzzing)
28: Bald top no temples (NW5)
30: (Now) complete loss with some minor stubborn terminal hairs sporadically spaced (NW6)

Current status after 2.5 months treatment is still NW5 as the new hairs are still very fine and not densely spaced but if it keeps going I'd say an NW3 is in reach. I'm not expecting to rewind more than 6 years but who knows...Hope that helps.




> how about the difference between titanium and surgical steel? In this site they sell a dermaroller claim to be made on surgical steel wich, i think, it could be better


 When I chose mine they made some marketing claim that titanium was more sterile that surgical steel and was less susceptible to corrosion, I say bollocks, there is a reason why all surgical instruments are steel. I don't think it should make a difference.

I hope all are taking pictures! trust me I would have stopped if I didn't see the pictures, its very hard to tell progress just by looking at the mirror everyday!



Here is a top shot of temples showing a 2 month progression. Zoom in to see the small regrowth. Top of the picture is the front of my hairline.
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=0

Hope this helps everyone

Good luck!!

----------


## PrettyFly83

Ive uploaded the originals here:

Start of treatment 23/05/2013
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=4

2 months into treatment 30/07/2013
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=1

Click the zoom button twice to get full size

----------


## JDW

Excellent quality photos, amazing progress for two months

----------


## brunobald

Wow nice results, I wonder if the dermarolling will make the hair follicules more robust, specifically in terms of what will happen if you stop using Minox. 

It looks like from your photos we are seeing ethier new follicules or a regeneration of old. A scalp biopsy would confirm this.

----------


## bananana

> Ive uploaded the originals here:
> 
> Start of treatment 23/05/2013
> http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=4
> 
> 2 months into treatment 30/07/2013
> http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=1
> 
> Click the zoom button twice to get full size


 Damn, these are really pretty good results! Regrowth is clearly seen, congrats.

----------


## Hal0

Hi, great results indeed.

But i have a question for you guys, i cant take minox anymore because i had huge irritation, do you know if i can find a subtitution product?

----------


## hellouser

> Hi, great results indeed.
> 
> But i have a question for you guys, i cant take minox anymore because i had huge irritation, do you know if i can find a subtitution product?


 Irritation? Like itchiness/redness?

Try to at least apply a bit of it. You're going to need it. If not, perhaps acquiring minoxidil compound on its own and creating your own vehicle for it, it could be the amount of propylene glycol in it.

----------


## Conpecia

Hal0: did you try the foam? those who get irritation from the liquid often do not experience it on the foam. that's what i use.

----------


## Borealis

Incredible progress there PrettyFly! I've just used it for the second time, ahh it's so horrible haha. I'm trying to convince myself I'm just overreacting but I swear I'm already noticing a difference in the thickness of my hair, and there are plenty of new vellus hairs. 

God it doesn't half itch afterwards though, last time it went away after about an hour though.

----------


## Hal0

Hellouser: yes like redness, dandruff, itchiness... I read somewhere that i need to add some oil..

Conpecia: Not yet but i will buy it i guess, i dont have the choice if i want some regrowth. I hope have the same result than a standard minoxidil.

----------


## PrettyFly83

:Smile: 


> Incredible progress there PrettyFly! I've just used it for the second time, ahh it's so horrible haha. I'm trying to convince myself I'm just overreacting but I swear I'm already noticing a difference in the thickness of my hair, and there are plenty of new vellus hairs. 
> 
> God it doesn't half itch afterwards though, last time it went away after about an hour though.


 Cheers thanks guys but no need to congratulate,  still got along way to go...Borealis I know exactly what you mean ha ha its not the most pleasant experience but what I've done and helps is get an ice block and numb the area you going to roll. Definitely helps with the itch pain thing. Also regarding the speed,  the study also notided rapid growth of existing follicles a week after rolling. Ive also noticed I have to buzz my hair alot more frequently so you may already be picking up on that.

Good luck

----------


## clandestine

PrettyFly; what's your regimen?

----------


## hellouser

> Hey Hellouser, yip I'd say pretty much NW6 if not I would be by the end of year. I have looked through old photo's on facebook to track my progression and can summarize it as such:
> 19: Started noticing increased hair fall in my study book etc
> 21: Noticed temples thinning (NW1.5)
> 23: Increased Temple and top thinning (NW2)
> 24: Significant thinning on top (NW3)
> 25-26: Loss of density all over (NW4 but could trace NW6 thinning - started buzzing)
> 28: Bald top no temples (NW5)
> 30: (Now) complete loss with some minor stubborn terminal hairs sporadically spaced (NW6)
> 
> Current status after 2.5 months treatment is still NW5 as the new hairs are still very fine and not densely spaced but if it keeps going I'd say an NW3 is in reach. I'm not expecting to rewind more than 6 years but who knows...Hope that helps.


 Thank you!

This is definitely exciting for diffuse thinners, too bad my temples are shot! Hopefully I can regain some hair in that area.

----------


## Borealis

Well I have pretty long hair on top anyway (I'm a NW2/3 maybe, with only very slight thinning on top), but it's my hairline that affects me the most. So the growth thing may not affect me so much. The ice thing sounds like a good idea, I may try that!

Thanks, and good luck to you. Keep going with it and I expect you to be a NW1 this time next year  :Wink:

----------


## PrettyFly83

> PrettyFly; what's your regimen?


 Hey Clandestine, check out pages 5 and 6 of the thread,  think its all there. Let me know if you got any queries?

----------


## clandestine

> Hey Clandestine, check out pages 5 and 6 of the thread,  think its all there. Let me know if you got any queries?


 Thanks.

Looks like you've got some regrowth; good job!

----------


## Pentarou

Quick misc. question about derma rolling: can you use them successfully without having buzzed hair?

----------


## hellouser

> Quick misc. question about derma rolling: can you use them successfully without having buzzed hair?


 As long as it wounds the skin, you should be fine. If the dermaroller is going overtop your existing hair, you'll probably need longer needles.

----------


## Pentarou

> As long as it wounds the skin, you should be fine. If the dermaroller is going overtop your existing hair, you'll probably need longer needles.


 Ah, I see. I don't have any bald areas if that helps, I'm a diffuse Nw2.5. Still worth a shot?

----------


## hellouser

> Ah, I see. I don't have any bald areas if that helps, I'm a diffuse Nw2.5. Still worth a shot?


 Hell yeah.

----------


## justeone

I'm ordering one today too  :EEK!:  
Remember guys , we are out for blood .

----------


## greatjob!

In the study they say they used the derma roller on the scalp* "until mild erythema was noted"* that doesn't really suggest they drew blood during treatment, but until mild redness was noticed on the skin.

----------


## StayThick

> In the study they say they used the derma roller on the scalp* "until mild erythema was noted"* that doesn't really suggest they drew blood during treatment, but until mild redness was noticed on the skin.


 This. You are not suppose to apply so much pressure on the scalp it draws blood. That's extremely excessive. 

I personally apply enough pressure where it's very unpleasant and my skin turns a semi-bright red. NO BLOOD. It even stings 10-15 minutes after application until I wake up the next morning.

I think that's the purpose of the study..not stabbing yourself with dozens of needles while blood pours down your face.

----------


## hellouser

> This. You are not suppose to apply so much pressure on the scalp it draws blood. That's extremely excessive. 
> 
> I personally apply enough pressure where it's very unpleasant and my skin turns a semi-bright red. NO BLOOD. It even stings 10-15 minutes after application until I wake up the next morning.
> 
> I think that's the purpose of the study..not stabbing yourself with dozens of needles while blood pours down your face.


 Well no wonder Jesus never went bald... that thorny crown did him good.

----------


## the_dude78

I can't help but wonder why we haven't really heard much about this before or seen any real results except from the study linked by OP and the photos from the user PrettyFly83. I mean it has been around for some years. I hope it's because they simply have been doing it wrong and been focusing on absorption and/or not stuck with it long enough. Anyway, I will definitely give it a try and use it once a week.

----------


## hellouser

> I can't help but wonder why we haven't really heard much about this before or seen any real results except from the study linked by OP and the photos from the user PrettyFly83. I mean it has been around for some years. I hope it's because they simply have been doing it wrong and been focusing on absorption and/or not stuck with it long enough. Anyway, I will definitely give it a try and use it once a week.


 Not a lot of people were doing it consistently and especially nowhere near enough with wounding. It also requires minoxidil as well.

Cotsarelis did mention back in around 2007 that wounding skin induces WNT proteins which helps hair grow, the same protein histogen uses for their injection method.

I hope we all get results.

----------


## SOTF

> This. You are not suppose to apply so much pressure on the scalp it draws blood. That's extremely excessive. 
> 
> I personally apply enough pressure where it's very unpleasant and my skin turns a semi-bright red. NO BLOOD. It even stings 10-15 minutes after application until I wake up the next morning.
> 
> I think that's the purpose of the study..not stabbing yourself with dozens of needles while blood pours down your face.


 This is just wrong. If you aren't bleeding you my aswell be using a .5mm roller. Use a 1.5mm, apply light pressure and see how much of those needles are getting penetration. 1/4th? If I am pressing hard enough to get even half the 1.5mm needles into the scalp, bleeding occurs. 

People have been using .5mm for a long time and have no acheived results like in the newest study. So which is it?

----------


## greatjob!

> I can't help but wonder why we haven't really heard much about this before or seen any real results except from the study linked by OP and the photos from the user PrettyFly83. I mean it has been around for some years. I hope it's because they simply have been doing it wrong and been focusing on absorption and/or not stuck with it long enough. Anyway, I will definitely give it a try and use it once a week.


 DR. Cotsarelis's work is based on the same principle, so we have been hearing a lot about this, it's just a poor man's version of his work.

----------


## Barron

I agree. I feel like a lot of people gave it a shot from 2007 - 2009 and no one came to any clear-cut conclusions. Anecdotal evidence that it has worked for some people does exist, but no group of individuals tried it consistently and in a controlled manner. 

The way I see it is, as with any hair loss treatment, it's difficult for individuals to gauge effectiveness when they don't see any clear-cut regrowth (even though, IMO, maintenance counts as effectiveness) and it requires months, if not years, to be able to tell.




> Not a lot of people were doing it consistently and especially nowhere near enough with wounding. It also requires minoxidil as well.
> 
> Cotsarelis did mention back in around 2007 that wounding skin induces WNT proteins which helps hair grow, the same protein histogen uses for their injection method.
> 
> I hope we all get results.

----------


## Velvetmonkey

Why do people keep saying you need minoxidil for this?

The study suggests you don't need minoxidil to achieve results. It says clearly that people applied minoxidil 24 hours AFTER microneedling. I'm no expert on wound healing, but obviously you would absorb more minoxidil by applying it directly after needling.

Or am I missing something?

I'm waiting for my roller now. If this works it will be huge.

On a sidenote. I remember one time as a kid, my friend squeezed his thumbnail into the top side of my hand for laughs. A coupple of hours later a single super thick black hair had sprouted in the same place. I mean, I don't have hairy hands. So this kid obviously managed to force a hair to grow on the back of my hand by "microneedling" it. 

So yeah, I believe in this shit for sure!  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> Why do people keep saying you need minoxidil for this?
> 
> The study suggests you don't need minoxidil to achieve results. It says clearly that people applied minoxidil 24 hours AFTER microneedling. I'm no expert on wound healing, but obviously you would absorb more minoxidil by applying it directly after needling.
> 
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> I'm waiting for my roller now. If this works it will be huge.
> 
> On a sidenote. I remember one time as a kid, my friend squeezed his thumbnail into the top side of my hand for laughs. A coupple of hours later a single super thick black hair had sprouted in the same place. I mean, I don't have hairy hands. So this kid obviously managed to force a hair to grow on the back of my hand by "microneedling" it. 
> ...


 Because minoxidil can give serious side effects if it goes systemic; rapid hearbeat being one of them. I've read reports that Minoxidil is supposed to raise PGE2 level, which are actually lowered in balding men compared to non-balding.

Also, I read somewhere of someone being bald and getting a bad sunburn o his head only to find new hairs growing after.

----------


## hellouser

> On a sidenote. I remember one time as a kid, my friend squeezed his thumbnail into the top side of my hand for laughs. A coupple of hours later a single super thick black hair had sprouted in the same place. I mean, I don't have hairy hands. So this kid obviously managed to force a hair to grow on the back of my hand by "microneedling" it. 
> 
> So yeah, I believe in this shit for sure!


 Does that hair on your hand still grow to this day or did it stop after a while?

----------


## greatjob!

> Why do people keep saying you need minoxidil for this?
> 
> The study suggests you don't need minoxidil to achieve results. It says clearly that people applied minoxidil 24 hours AFTER microneedling. I'm no expert on wound healing, but obviously you would absorb more minoxidil by applying it directly after needling.
> 
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> I'm waiting for my roller now. If this works it will be huge.
> 
> On a sidenote. I remember one time as a kid, my friend squeezed his thumbnail into the top side of my hand for laughs. A coupple of hours later a single super thick black hair had sprouted in the same place. I mean, I don't have hairy hands. So this kid obviously managed to force a hair to grow on the back of my hand by "microneedling" it. 
> ...


 The reason you need to use minoxidil in conjunction is because it isn't about absorption, that's why you don't use it on the same day. The point of using minox is because it is believed to be a PEG2 stimulator of some sort, and PEG2 is believed to be a growth stimulant that helps with the upregulation of various growth factors and possibly inhibits PDG2, that will then hopefully reactivate the dormant stem cells in the scalp. It is unlikely that wounding alone will be enough to regenerate hair. Dr. Cotsarelis and Follica are working on a similar treatment with different devices and different growth factors. Without the growth factors it is unlikely to do anything, or else Follica would likely have released a treatment a long time ago.

----------


## deuce

Didn't Cotsarelis use FGF9.  You think that would work with this trial here?

----------


## hellouser

> Didn't Cotsarelis use FGF9.  You think that would work with this trial here?


 The theory is that FGF-9 added to wounding would create new hair follicles. Apparently its already used in other areas so a clinical trial for FGF-9 isn't necessary. However, its clear from PrettyFly that its not completely necessary and Minoxidil works at least to some degree.

FGF-9 you'd need to inject though, its molecular weight is 23,000 dalton. Human skin won't let anything higher than 500 pass through it, perhaps more but depends on skin. Dermarolling will of course help penetration but to what extent I don't know as there are variables, but I've read that it could allows a compound up 10,000 dalton to pass through it.

----------


## deuce

Thanks for the info Hellouser.  Good stuff man.  Hopefully Prettyfly maintains his good results and adds to it.  Minoxidil gives me headaches and heart palpitations unfortunately.  Hopefully Follica releases something soon, and is cosmetic so it does not have to pass trials.  We can all grow hair and put this shit to bed.  I may give the minoxidil another shot.  I read on this forum that you should not add minox the same day as you do your rolling.  Then I read that Prettyfly does his immediately after rolling.  I am confused.  Should we do it the same day or not?  Also Haven't people been using dermarolling with minoxidil for a while now?  What is the difference now?

----------


## hellouser

> Thanks for the info Hellouser.  Good stuff man.  Hopefully Prettyfly maintains his good results and adds to it.  Minoxidil gives me headaches and heart palpitations unfortunately.  Hopefully Follica releases something soon, and is cosmetic so it does not have to pass trials.  We can all grow hair and put this shit to bed.  I may give the minoxidil another shot.  I read on this forum that you should not add minox the same day as you do your rolling.  Then I read that Prettyfly does his immediately after rolling.  I am confused.  Should we do it the same day or not?


 If you get side effects, dont do it the same day. Its not completely necessary anyway to do the same day. Dermarolling isn't about absorption of Minoxidil, its about wounding.

----------


## hellouser

Interesting article from 1986 mentioning scalp burn victim with MPB regrowing terminal hair after the burn healed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0266-0059b.pdf

----------


## Velvetmonkey

> Does that hair on your hand still grow to this day or did it stop after a while?


 I pulled it out as soon as I noticed it as it looked freaky. Today there's only tiny hairs that are barely visible.

----------


## Velvetmonkey

> Interesting article from 1986 mentioning scalp burn victim with MPB regrowing terminal hair after the burn healed:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0266-0059b.pdf


 This suggests that minoxidil is not necessary for hair regrowth.

----------


## greatjob!

> This suggests that minoxidil is not necessary for hair regrowth.


 I don't understand why you wouldn't want to replicate a successful study unless you experienced unbearable side effects.

----------


## beetee133

One quick question about wounding in this context.  My understanding of the wounding process in humans is that if the wound is severe enough to cause a scarring process to start, that no hair will regrow in that area ever.  I thought the main take away from the recent Cotsarelis research is that that's the main difference between these mice and humans: when the human skin is wounded and scarred it will never regrow hair, but that it's possible that if some chemical agent is introduced it may be able to change the process from one that would produce a scar to one that would produce hair follicles.  If this is the case, that would seem to indicate that if one did not use the right chemical (from what I understand the correct chemical is either unknown or just known by Cotsarelis) and one is inducing wounding there is a chance (possibly a good one) that they will be causing scar tissue to develop and then no hair will ever grow in the scarred areas again.  

Take it for what it's worth (not much) and everyone is obviously free to experiment as much as they want, but a potential word of caution.  It seems to me that some percentage of the people on this forum actually have pretty decent heads of hair but are really freaked out about what they think they see coming down the pike in terms of hair loss.  While I don't blame anyone for that, it might make as much sense to look at your hair in terms of how much you have as opposed to how much you think you've lost.  

I obviously have no idea what will happen if you experiment with this wounding process, but just be careful, as it would be a shame to dramatically and permanently advance the process of balding in an effort to make it go away, especially if you are someone that no one else can even really tell is suffering from MPB.

----------


## Velvetmonkey

> I don't understand why you wouldn't want to replicate a successful study unless you experienced unbearable side effects.


 I just think minoxidil is such a hassle. I used it 10 years ago but can't say it did anything for me.

I will however try the microneedling and rub some emu oil on my scalp right after.

----------


## mari0s

> One quick question about wounding in this context.  My understanding of the wounding process in humans is that if the wound is severe enough to cause a scarring process to start, that no hair will regrow in that area ever.  .


 mmm many people use the 1.5mm in their face for acne scars and usually they push hard with a lot of blood but i never heard that beardhair have stop to regrow, do you have a link of that research?

In the study they said middle erythema so there is no need of push until bloods out, someone should really try to contact them i can' understand why no one has tried, we don't even know if they have use DR with cross-lined needles or straight

----------


## doke

If you dermeroll everyday you only need to use minoxidil once a day thats what i am doing as it makes minox more powerful and less side effects.

----------


## doke

I think there has been users for a long time using dermaroller heres a link to where i got my first roller with the woundhealing copper peptides spray also a video of the use with minoxidil once a day use 
just a word see the video and i am not saying buy from them as i now get either tricomin or procyte copper peptides in other words shop around the video might be helpful as said use minox 5&#37; once a day.

----------


## the_dude78

> I think there has been users for a long time using dermaroller heres a link to where i got my first roller with the woundhealing copper peptides spray also a video of the use with minoxidil once a day use 
> just a word see the video and i am not saying buy from them as i now get either tricomin or procyte copper peptides in other words shop around the video might be helpful as said use minox 5% once a day.


 Great link, thanks!

----------


## the_dude78

> If you dermeroll everyday you only need to use minoxidil once a day thats what i am doing as it makes minox more powerful and less side effects.


 But the idea is to NOT roll every day. The wound healing process apparently requires time to do its magic.

----------


## greatjob!

> I just think minoxidil is such a hassle. I used it 10 years ago but can't say it did anything for me.
> 
> I will however try the microneedling and rub some emu oil on my scalp right after.


 Why don't you try the foam? It is not a hassle at all, dries in a few minutes and I actually find that it acts as a thickening styling agent. Also it is now available in generic, I get a 6 month supply of generic foam from costco for around $60.

----------


## the_dude78

Since Nizoral acts as an anti inflammatory, I guess it would be a bad idea to use it with the dermaroller. Or?

----------


## hellouser

> Since Nizoral acts as an anti inflammatory, I guess it would be a bad idea to use it with the dermaroller. Or?


 You could try getting OFF of Nizoral and seeing results with wounding, and then trying to add Nizoral back and seeing the new results.

----------


## StayThick

> This is just wrong. If you aren't bleeding you my aswell be using a .5mm roller. Use a 1.5mm, apply light pressure and see how much of those needles are getting penetration. 1/4th? If I am pressing hard enough to get even half the 1.5mm needles into the scalp, bleeding occurs. 
> 
> People have been using .5mm for a long time and have no acheived results like in the newest study. So which is it?


 No you're wrong.

You are not suppose to apply with as much pressure to cause blood. Do you seriously want to scar your head? Does hair grow from scars on your body?

They don't on me and I have a big one on my arm. Point is, the study does not indicate you have to draw blood. When I roll, it is painful and my skin turns bright red, specifically in the corners of my hairline which is my biggest concern. I couldn't fathom applyin any more pressure just from a pain standpoint.

Some of you guys are nuts.

----------


## greatjob!

> When I roll, it is painful and my skin turns bright red


 This is correct. I am starting to wonder if most of the people here have even read the study or understood it.

The specific part of the study that describes what the desired outcome of the micro-needling says, again, to use the derma roller *"until mild erythema was noted"*. Erythema does not mean bleeding, it means redness of the skin caused by blood from capillaries flowing into the lower levels of skin tissue as a result of skin injury. This is the purpose of the micro-needling to release the blood from the capillaries into the skin on the scalp, because the capillaries are going to carry the growth factors to the injured tissue and also the dormant follicles.

----------


## bigentries

I'm worried about people speculating so much about needle sizes, use of minox, adding other stuff, etc.

We don't even know if this thing works or not, think about laser studies and the lack of anecdotal evidence

First we need to replicate the results with the same methodology and later try new approaches

----------


## Pentarou

> *First we need to replicate the results with the same methodology* and later try new approaches


 This. Before anything else.

----------


## The Alchemist

Count me in on this.  Just came back from a haircut and i'm reaching peak desperation.  Realized looking in the mirror that i'm on at the beginning phase of NWIIIA type loss.  I'm receded, though not too deep in the corners, but i'm getting diffusely thin throughout the front.  By this time next year, the frontal third of my head will be gone or just scraps that will be impossible to style.

I think the transition from NWII to NWIII is pretty rough to go through, it's the point where you actually start looking visibly balding to other people.  Start dealing with the eyes that wander up to your hairline.  F'ng baldness...what BS.

Tried derma-rolling a ways back, but never committed to it fully.  I was inconsistent and then stopped after a month or so.  Saw no results.  Still have the roller so will give it a shot again.  Think i'll roll twice a week and will be applying minox foam once at night.  And i use Nizoral though it's some off brand, so who knows if it works.  Now that i think about, my hairloss started accelerating right around the time i stopped using real Nizoral from Johnson and Johnson.  The past 6 months, i've lost more than in the past 3 years combined.  J&J stopped producing it....seriously FML, the one thing that was helping me hold off the MPB and now it's taken away for no reason.

I'm desperate, so i'm in...

----------


## doke

> Great link, thanks!


 hi sorry about the link i kept trying but it did not work anyway the company and video is on www.clearskincare.com.au

----------


## SOTF

People have been inducing erythema on their scalps while using minox for many years now. There is something a muck here, please "mildly" roll a 1.5mm dermaroller over your scalp, how much needle penetration are you getting? Less than half. Why even use a 1.5mm? Just use a .5mm which is enough to create erythema WITHOUT bleeding. If I get more than half penetration with the 1.5mm I BLEED. 

Scarring? Have you seen the force used with a dermaroller on scars? Bleeding occurs. You are not going to damage or create scars pushing half a 1.5mm roller into your head. 

Some of you guys are nuts (and misinformed). I can use ad hominem too.

----------


## johnnynohair

Hello men.

I'll be trying this and reporting back. Got a 1.5mm roller on the way, I use 5% regaine foam twice a day and Nizoral twice a week.

I'm aiming to post baseline pictures but my bald/thin bit is right at the back and a pig to photograph well. And y'know a bit cringe to do...

Cheers and good luck all.

----------


## PrettyFly83

Hey all

So I took some initiative and managed to make contact with one of the Doctors behind the recent microneedling study. I'm not going to post their details here as they could get inundated with random emails and we may never get the facts we're after. they have confirmed that they are using it as a treatment for patients which is another promising sign on its effectiveness.

What I suggest is putting together a short list of queries we have which I'll request some clarity on. Whether we get any more information is another question as if they are using this treatment, its unlikely they will want to give away their secrets but its worth a try right?

The following seem to be the biggest queries on the forum which all are welcome to edit:

1. Needle size (0.5mm vs 1.5mm) to induce growth
2. Treatment pressure used and Whether weekly treatment is the most optimum
3. Why did study not use minox on same day
4. Whether bleeding is normal and to what extent
5. Will the treatment cause scaring and possibly hinder natural hair growth 

Open to any opinions and views?

Its probably best to first pose some fairly non threatening questions to see if they open up so maybe lets keep it to a max 3-4 basic questions.

----------


## HectorHero

> People have been inducing erythema on their scalps while using minox for many years now. There is something a muck here, please "mildly" roll a 1.5mm dermaroller over your scalp, how much needle penetration are you getting? Less than half. Why even use a 1.5mm? Just use a .5mm which is enough to create erythema WITHOUT bleeding. If I get more than half penetration with the 1.5mm I BLEED. 
> 
> Scarring? Have you seen the force used with a dermaroller on scars? Bleeding occurs. You are not going to damage or create scars pushing half a 1.5mm roller into your head. 
> 
> Some of you guys are nuts (and misinformed). I can use ad hominem too.


 Well, the one study used a 1.5 mm roller (with success). So at what point are people falling trap to ad hominem?

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Gents,
Joined HLH back in 2002. I am 40 and solid norwood 6 with about 3000 grafts in front to frame my grill. I like this forum the best so joined. I have been using Capillogain for 7 months and Scalp Med for the past month. The Cap regrew some and totally regrew my eye brows so has some benifit. Plus I have tons of elogngated peach fuzz all over my melon. Anyway been using the 1.5 for two weeks now and tonight will be the start of week three. I truly think waiting a full 7 days is very important. In a more severe would the three stages of healing takes 30 days. I am guessing these micro wounds heal in 6 to 7 with the growth factors at their highest points at day 3 and 4. I think wounding every day or every third day breaks the cycle of healing hence it will not work. I feel the cycle has to complete its self and with new wounds after that cycle it starts all over hence more WNT which is what we want....

Cheers,
Ghost

----------


## hellouser

> Hey all
> 
> So I took some initiative and managed to make contact with one of the Doctors behind the recent microneedling study. I'm not going to post their details here as they could get inundated with random emails and we may never get the facts we're after. they have confirmed that they are using it as a treatment for patients which is another promising sign on its effectiveness.
> 
> What I suggest is putting together a short list of queries we have which I'll request some clarity on. Whether we get any more information is another question as if they are using this treatment, its unlikely they will want to give away their secrets but its worth a try right?
> 
> The following seem to be the biggest queries on the forum which all are welcome to edit:
> 
> 1. Needle size (0.5mm vs 1.5mm) to induce growth
> ...


 A few questions from me:

6. Do results continue to show as long as wounding/dermarolling continues with the use of Minoxidil or is there a maximum achievable one can expect?

7. How many norwood levels can this method potentially bring back a balding man?

8. We're trials ever done with Finasteride and if so, did the results improve?

----------


## PrettyFly83

> Gents,
> Joined HLH back in 2002. I am 40 and solid norwood 6 with about 3000 grafts in front to frame my grill. I like this forum the best so joined. I have been using Capillogain for 7 months and Scalp Med for the past month. The Cap regrew some and totally regrew my eye brows so has some benifit. Plus I have tons of elogngated peach fuzz all over my melon. Anyway been using the 1.5 for two weeks now and tonight will be the start of week three. I truly think waiting a full 7 days is very important. In a more severe would the three stages of healing takes 30 days. I am guessing these micro wounds heal in 6 to 7 with the growth factors at their highest points at day 3 and 4. I think wounding every day or every third day breaks the cycle of healing hence it will not work. I feel the cycle has to complete its self and with new wounds after that cycle it starts all over hence more WNT which is what we want....
> 
> Cheers,
> Ghost


 Hey Ghost, good points raised and welcome to the forum! Have you taken some baseline pictures? I'm a NW6 myself and have gotten some fine regrowth all over from this technique. Check out pages 5-8 of the thread for my pictures. I agree about the resting period as the same is used in the skin care circles for collagen production - to early and you disrupt the cycle.

----------


## PrettyFly83

> A few questions from me:
> 
> 6. Do results continue to show as long as wounding/dermarolling continues with the use of Minoxidil or is there a maximum achievable one can expect?
> 
> 7. How many norwood levels can this method potentially bring back a balding man?
> 
> 8. We're trials ever done with Finasteride and if so, did the results improve?


 Good Points Hellouser! noted them down.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

PrettyFly yep I saw your pictures and can see your regrowth! Also see that your sun and or age spots have almost diminished. Your scalp looks a lot healthier for sure. Got me excited! You and me are in the same boat but with time I feel we will be NW3's! I also feel Follica has the cure but they are trying to work around a patent for which could take many, many years and a Patent pending doesn't help them at all. I have some background in this. Them using CURRENT drugs to trigger hair formulation they cannot patent because it is already out in market now. So their patents are based on a machine that either plucks holes and or some type of abrasion machine. All in all they know it works but every tom dick and harry will do a spin off. You cannot patent something unless it is new and unique to the market....their machine will be but wounding is wounding weather it is done by hand or machine.....cheers fellas :Big Grin:

----------


## LevonHelms

Hey guys,
I've been following this thread closely, and have finally been approved to post.  I've purchased the 1.5mm and have done one treatment as described by the study, which I plan to follow. I'm a 10yr fin and minox vet, and will be continuing these through my trial (minox once a day except rolling days).

PrettyFly, your results are encouraging congrats! And thank you for contacting the scientist, if you can open a dialogue or even get a few questions answered that will be huge. 

Anyway, lots of guys are trialing this right now, here, and on other forums.  So, we should know if this works one way or another pretty soon.

Good Luck everybody!

----------


## hellouser

> PrettyFly yep I saw your pictures and can see your regrowth! Also see that your sun and or age spots have almost diminished. Your scalp looks a lot healthier for sure. Got me excited! You and me are in the same boat but with time I feel we will be NW3's! I also feel Follica has the cure but they are trying to work around a patent for which could take many, many years and a Patent pending doesn't help them at all. I have some background in this. Them using CURRENT drugs to trigger hair formulation they cannot patent because it is already out in market now. So their patents are based on a machine that either plucks holes and or some type of abrasion machine. All in all they know it works but every tom dick and harry will do a spin off. You cannot patent something unless it is new and unique to the market....their machine will be but wounding is wounding weather it is done by hand or machine.....cheers fellas


 The solution with Follica, in my opinion, is simple:

1) Dermaroll/wound whenever needed at 7 day intervals. 
2) Use a mesogun to inject FGF-9 yourself. 
3) Watch hair grow.

FGF-9 needs injection though, its molecular weight is 23,000 dalton, far higher than skin allows (typically a maximum of 500 dalton, depending on vehicle as well).

Dermarolling should allow heavier compounds to go through the skin, but I'm not sure by how much. In one source I read up to 10,000 dalton, which is still HALF of FGF-9, so injection is still needed.

If we could though, get our hands on FGF-9 and inject ourselves with it and dermaroll, we'd need to figure out WHEN to inject ourselves with it; right after wounding? A day later? 3-4 days later? Before?

If anyone is an expert on this, would a diabetic needle with FGF-9 in saline provide results?

----------


## rdawg

> If anyone is an expert on this, would a diabetic needle with FGF-9 in saline provide results?


 Do we even know if it's safe to use this FGF-9 stuff though?

like what harmful side effects could occur(cancer?) 

it's worth a try if it's very safe to use like say cetrizine/PGD2 is.

----------


## hellouser

> Do we even know if it's safe to use this FGF-9 stuff though?
> 
> like what harmful side effects could occur(cancer?) 
> 
> it's worth a try if it's very safe to use like say cetrizine/PGD2 is.


 FGF-9 is already produced by your body, should be safe as hell. Also, its apparently already used in certain products, and Follica has already passed Phase I safety trials.

----------


## bigentries

> FGF-9 is already produced by your body, should be safe as hell. Also, its apparently already used in certain products, and Follica has already passed Phase I safety trials.


 Hellouser, that is really bad reasoning, there are lots of substances produced by the body that have adverse effects when used exogenously

And are you sure about Follica? The last release of information was very chaotic, some people kept talking about Phase III trials, I don't remember anyone being able to find the trials that several articles were talking about

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser, that is really bad reasoning, there are lots of substances produced by the body that have adverse effects when used exogenously
> 
> And are you sure about Follica? The last release of information was very chaotic, some people kept talking about Phase III trials, I don't remember anyone being able to find the trials that several articles were talking about


 Yes, Follica is in Phase IIa studies;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbJiy37BmhE

Go to the 20:00 minute mark and Joe From Staten Island says:

'Ladies and gentlemen, for the first time in history, Follica is in Phase IIa studies. They have performed follicular neogenesis on human beings. My god.'

Spencer Kobren confirms this. Listen to the rest of the bit as well.

So it clearly passed safety. Now its efficacy.

----------


## john2399

Can someone explain a good regimen on how to apply this stuff? Are you suppose to use dermaroller once a week ? Minox 24 hours after using dermaroller?

----------


## hellouser

> Can someone explain a good regimen on how to apply this stuff? *Are you suppose to use dermaroller once a week ? Minox 24 hours after using dermaroller?*


 Yes to both. You should continuously use Minox for all days after dermarolling until the next dermarolling session.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Fgf9...do not freak with it. Comes from rare tcells. Let your body produce it from wounding. You inject it...game over. Do your research....I am....lets work together....look up wound healing 3 stages......1 st stage blood vessels close down in wound healing. Then inflammation occurs.....then the magic wnt and formation of new blood vessels and growth properties. In hair loss there is only a trigger from dht that starts the process that stops at inflammation. When inflammation arrives it destroys but doesn't trigger the rebuild because there is no wound. Its a process and what we are doing now completes the process. I maybe drunk but I am right. Time now to pluck my head with 35000 holes. Man up. Its our time. What we do in life echos in eternity!

----------


## hellouser

> Fgf9...do not freak with it. Comes from rare tcells. Let your body produce it from wounding. You inject it...game over. Do your research....I am....lets work together....look up wound healing 3 stages......1 st stage blood vessels close down in wound healing. Then inflammation occurs.....then the magic wnt and formation of new blood vessels and growth properties. *In hair loss there is only a trigger from dht that starts the process that stops at inflammation. When inflammation arrives it destroys but doesn't trigger the rebuild because there is no wound.* Its a process and what we are doing now completes the process. I maybe drunk but I am right. Time now to pluck my head with 35000 holes. Man up. Its our time. What we do in life echos in eternity!


 Would you say the dermarolling results would have been more impressive had the patients in the study been on Finasteride or Dutasteride?

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Fellas....logic....look at the 3 stages of wound healing. Inflammation is stage one.....no wound stage 2 and 3 do not happen. That means that the body aka inflammation never leaves....it's a cycle. What's good for us is our issue is only 4mm deep. People with deep bone arthritis can only depend on drugs. Why does propecia work? Because it lowers dht hence less inflammation. Why does minox work? Because it increases growth. Each of us has a different immune system. I am a Norwood 6 but I have not been sick for 20 years. Nothing nada. You have to complete the circle. Wounding is the key and Folica knows it.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Hellman yes....I won't mess with it....did in my twenties. Lost my sex drive and my sense of being a man. I maybe bald but I get wood and I feel like a man. I hate hair loss but...do not forget who and what you are...a man.

----------


## hellouser

> Hellman yes....I won't mess with it....did in my twenties. Lost my sex drive and my sense of being a man. I maybe bald but I get wood and I feel like a man. I hate hair loss but...do not forget who and what you are...a man.


 I've got fears of having the same problems. I took RU for a long time, and between September 2012 - May 2013 I took 50-100mg of RU daily. I could feel my libido drop, but everything else functioned normally, though I was also taking 320mg of Saw Palmetto a day as well.

I'm thinking of getting back on RU during the dermarolling trial. When would be the best time to apply a topical anti-androgen to go along with dermarolling? A day before or a 2-3 days after when the WNT proteins are released and FGF9 is induced?

----------


## GreyGhost1864

I am rolling why do transplant anti rejection drugs work on hair loss? It puts inflammation in check. There is no foreign invader. Wounding works in time and we have the tools. I am so. Sorry you guys are going thru this. I was 19 when it started for me and I am 40 now. I married a beautiful woman 5 years ago. She didn't care I was bald. I was free from this and was happy. Our divorce was final two weeks ago.....no reason just she didn't love me anymore. Is what it is. My time will come and so will yours. I love all my balding brothers. Ghost out

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Hellousa
ru topical I think is good because of its shelf life which is 24 hours. I may start it but eod. I think doing that keeps dht in check. No more than 4 times a week. Where do you get it. I hope its not Kane.

----------


## Conpecia

i like this ghost guy. he's got the right mentality. 

i'm curious as to what happens to the hairs we gain from wounding. they're still dht sensitive, that's not going anywhere. so by derma rolling and inducing the wound process that regular mpb skips over (thus endless inflammation), are we essentially creating dht resistant hairs, so long as we roll regularly? that's one question. and will blocking dht get us farther along and make things happen quicker?

i think we're onto something by wounding and letting growth factors get to work. i also think we'll find ways to optimize this process within the next few months. plus it's pretty safe as far as experimentals go. lots of guys are interested in this, many of them with way more knowledge about hair loss than i possess. i think together we can make some big strides. let's do this, all out attack.

----------


## hellouser

> Hellousa
> ru topical I think is good because of its shelf life which is 24 hours. I may start it but eod. I think doing that keeps dht in check. No more than 4 times a week. Where do you get it. I hope its not Kane.


 My source was actually Ontario Chemicals for the first little while, but am not sure of its purity. My last batch was from a group buy elsewhere. My next source may be Kane.

I will be ordering CB soon as well, may use that along with RU or potentially on its own as to minimize its side effects (drop in libido). CB is also supposed to be at least 2X as strong as Finasteride without any side effects (it goes benign once it hits the bloodstream anyway).

----------


## hellouser

> i like this ghost guy. he's got the right mentality. 
> 
> i'm curious as to what happens to the hairs we gain from wounding. they're still dht sensitive, that's not going anywhere. so by derma rolling and inducing the wound process that regular mpb skips over (thus endless inflammation), are we essentially creating dht resistant hairs, so long as we roll regularly? that's one question. and will blocking dht get us farther along and make things happen quicker?
> 
> i think we're onto something by wounding and letting growth factors get to work. i also think we'll find ways to optimize this process within the next few months. plus it's pretty safe as far as experimentals go. lots of guys are interested in this, many of them with way more knowledge about hair loss than i possess. i think together we can make some big strides. let's do this, all out attack.


 This forum needs a 'Like' button just as on Facebook. I agree about Ghost, great info. This thread is full of information, exactly what this forum and every other hair loss forum should be about  :Smile: 

Thanks Ghost!

----------


## GreyGhost1864

conpecia
The immune system is a link. Genes is all well and good. Can they be changed? That's up to god! Like I said our issues are 4mm deep. I know it is shallow but it is up to you. I took pics tonight....first place your 1.5 on your skull. Press down it feels like pulling Velcro apart. Then once you pressed it in and you hear then skin pop then you use that pressure from front to back. Then repeat......do it

----------


## GreyGhost1864

I hope the folica team is reading this thread because they know......we know...and our suffering is almost over. And they can suck a wet jucy fart. And good luck them on their wishful wounding machine using already approved FDA drugs.....sorry you........

----------


## goldbondmafia

has anyone on here actually had results (before after pics) from dermarolling or is it still too new? 

I wonder whos been doing it the longest and if its been beneficial..

----------


## Arashi

> has anyone on here actually had results (before after pics) from dermarolling or is it still too new? 
> 
> I wonder whos been doing it the longest and if its been beneficial..


 See page 5 of this thread. Or just click: http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...dd798.jpg.html

----------


## hellouser

> I hope the folica team is reading this thread because they know......we know...and our suffering is almost over. And they can suck a wet jucy fart. And good luck them on their wishful wounding machine using already approved FDA drugs.....sorry you........


 This.

This should also be read by Aderans, Replicel, Histogen and especially every crooked hair transplant doctor charging 10,000 fvcking dollars per treatment at the expense of donor hair WITHOUT regeneration. If they plan on making any money, they're going to need to have a much better product (assuming and hoping dermarolling/wounding+minox works).

Market forces will determine their fate, and I will gladly watch these lazy sons of bitches hit rock bottom with their prolonged clinical trials and empty promises. Snake oil salesman will be shook too. I can't wait to see their days be numbered... thats when real innovation and effort to push for a superior product starts.

----------


## chimera

> has anyone on here actually had results (before after pics) from dermarolling or is it still too new?


 I think this is still too new, it hasn't even been one single month since the study was released.

There have been people trying this in the past, but I don't think they were consistent enough, or just did not knew how to do it (using smaller neddles or a lot of people dermarolling on a daily basis, which I really think is not a good idea).

Or at least that is what I hope so.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

**** them all. Sorry.....all forums should join together. We have no reason for financially advancement. Just to sit on a beach with the wind in our hair....and get some split tail. Guys I was given the logic.....So many of you guys smarter than me. First thing to look at is why does inflammation continue. I bet my left nut there is a reason. I am a project manager by trade. Lets set up a new thread every Friday....then the next Friday lets discuss our findings....this week inflammation...I will open the discussion on our findings next Friday morning. Lets do this

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Hellouser
Amen! All about the roller.....a 12 roller derma roller and a 10 dollar liquid regrowth solution means only a 50 foot boat. They want the titanic.....and praise. God says to give silently. To be unknown and you will be blessed. I live by that way.....

----------


## hellouser

> **** them all. Sorry.....all forums should join together. We have no reason for financially advancement. Just to sit on a beach with the wind in our hair....and get some split tail. Guys I was given the logic.....So many of you guys smarter than me. First thing to look at is why does inflammation continue. I bet my left nut there is a reason. I am a project manager by trade. Lets set up a new thread every Friday....then the next Friday lets discuss our findings....this week inflammation...I will open the discussion on our findings next Friday morning. Lets do this


 I'll be reporting my progress in this thread as well as my original regimen thread: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=12390

I got my dermaroller in the mail today, here it is:

----------


## Conpecia

lol we have the exact same laptop case

and that shit looks INTENSE dude, like a ****ing torture device...

----------


## john2399

no pain no gain

----------


## goldbondmafia

> See page 5 of this thread. Or just click: http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...dd798.jpg.html


 Really appreciate the post. Wow that is some crazy shit. Hellouser could you send me a link to where you got the dermaroller from?

----------


## hellouser

Just finished my first rolling session... GOD DAMN IT HURTS. All I'm hearing is a crunching sound going back and forth across my scalp. I can definitely do this once a week, thank christ. Oh well, like John2399 said, no pain no gain.

Here's what my temples look like immediately after rolling:

----------


## hellouser

> Really appreciate the post. Wow that is some crazy shit. Hellouser could you send me a link to where you got the dermaroller from?


 Yup:




> I just ordered my dermaroller, 1.5mm and 192 microneedles:
> 
> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00A...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

----------


## Conpecia

lol this is gonna be one wild ride, thanks for the pics hell

----------


## hellouser

> lol this is gonna be one wild ride, thanks for the pics hell


 I *badly* need pure CB from Kane. I dont want to touch RU anymore, I'm worried that extended use will fvck with my libido even more and potentially give me side effects similar to Finasteride; TESTICLE ATROPHY! I'm not entirely but I think my balls have shrunk *slightly*. They don't feel as 'big' when im excited.

CB is going to be a major god send when it becomes available, should put all the sons of bitches that make finasteride RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> Yup:


 thanks pal. Looks really painful lol

----------


## john2399

hellouser, how many times did you roll it ?

----------


## hellouser

> hellouser, how many times did you roll it ?


 No clue, but many times.. maybe 50 or so? I wanted to make sure I was getting enough wounding though because its hard to tell with hair in the way. Parting it helps though to check for blood, im going to judge wounding by that since my scalp is pretty damn white and the study did state until the scalp became red... but I don't see much redness going.

----------


## hellouser

> Would anyone advise getting a 2mm dermaroller considering it will be rolling over a head WITH hair that will make a 2mm dermaroller more like 1.5mm considering it has to go through the layer of hair?


 Upon reflection, I don't think 1.5mm was absolutely necessary for a couple of reasons:

1) My hair is already thin, it doesnt create that much of a thick layer for the dermaroller to go through.
2) My scalp skin is very thin, so the dermaroller doesn't have much to go through.

That said, its better to be safe than sorry so the 1.5mm I'd still recommend.

Interesting though that I'm balding in area's where there's a thinner layer of skin and everywhere else where theres a thicker layer of skin theres LOTS of hair.

Anyone know if scalp skin thickness has any kind of relation to the follicles?

----------


## PrettyFly83

Morning gents, sucks to be in the office on a Saturday morning but been a pleasure reading through the thread and all the comments. Lets keep this positivity "Rolling"!! 

...eh, that was was lame sorry :Embarrassment: 




> PrettyFly yep I saw your pictures and can see your regrowth! Also see that your sun and or age spots have almost diminished. Your scalp looks a lot healthier for sure. Got me excited! You and me are in the same boat but with time I feel we will be NW3's! I also feel Follica has the cure but they are trying to work around a patent for which could take many, many years and a Patent pending doesn't help them at all. I have some background in this. Them using CURRENT drugs to trigger hair formulation they cannot patent because it is already out in market now. So their patents are based on a machine that either plucks holes and or some type of abrasion machine. All in all they know it works but every tom dick and harry will do a spin off. You cannot patent something unless it is new and unique to the market....their machine will be but wounding is wounding weather it is done by hand or machine.....cheers fellas


 


> I maybe drunk but I am right. Time now to pluck my head with 35000 holes. Man up. Its our time. What we do in life echos in eternity!


 Skrew the "like" button, I want a "High Five" button! Sticking it to the man!




> I think this is still too new, it hasn't even been one single month since the study was released.
> 
> There have been people trying this in the past, but I don't think they were consistent enough, or just did not knew how to do it (using smaller neddles or a lot of people dermarolling on a daily basis, which I really think is not a good idea).
> 
> Or at least that is what I hope so.


 Hey Chimera, I've been doing something similar accidentally for around 2.5 months and have been getting results - my pictures and regime have been posted earlier in the thread pg5-8. Really hope people can replicate and exceed the results i got! 




> Anyone know if scalp skin thickness has any kind of relation to the follicles?


 Hey Hellouser, not sure it does. I'm really thin on my temples where yes there is little to no hair and its painful to roll however the back of my crown is very thick in skin, not painful to roll but is thinning badly...for now at least :Big Grin:  Maybe the thinner skin means less blood reserves and hence lower growth factors brought to the follicles which could be why regrowth is a little slower in these area's...just a theory.




> PrettyFly, your results are encouraging congrats! And thank you for contacting the scientist, if you can open a dialogue or even get a few questions answered that will be huge. 
> 
> Good Luck everybody!


 Hey Levon, pleasure. I sent off the email this morning with some queries that I hope were not too prying. Will upload the response here if I get one. Once I get a response I will ask some more detailed queries.

Good luck to all

----------


## GreyGhost1864

I drank tooooo much last night. I took pics last night after the knife fight. I hate looking at my crown! I needled with a .5 then my 1.5. Not pleasant but hope makes you do crazy things. God speed to us all

The ghost

----------


## doke

Is fgf9 a lotion and we do not know the strength if it is,i am going back to using aloe vera mixed with dutasteride as i did start seeing results with that plus minoxidil without pg and the important tool the dermaroller although i use it everyday with 192 needle and 0.5mm which i get success with.
Also using copper pep and topicle zinc.

----------


## doke

I noticed that a product has been mentioned with fgf9 that can be used now by a company called cygenex well this product was also called A&G  which is made from human stem cells a lot of us bought into this a few years ago and it did not work then but i wonder if it had been used with the scalp roller or injected it may have done.
I know joe from staton island is excited but im not so sure as yet what about pgd2 and the psi by neosil these were supposed to regrow hair the psi was at the time said to only be used for 16 days then left for a month or two then restart and hair regrowth was seen in about two weeks what happened.
There is a company still selling psi but im not sure it will do anything but hey if used again with the roller it might.

----------


## SOTF

> Yes, Follica is in Phase IIa studies;
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbJiy37BmhE
> 
> Go to the 20:00 minute mark and Joe From Staten Island says:
> 
> 'Ladies and gentlemen, for the first time in history, Follica is in Phase IIa studies. They have performed follicular neogenesis on human beings. My god.'
> 
> Spencer Kobren confirms this. Listen to the rest of the bit as well.
> ...


 Can you please provide the study in which follica performs follicular neogenesis on human beings?

It is my understanding the study was from several years ago and was done using wounding + lithium. 

I believe "Joe from Staten Island" made a false statement and people are taking it to heart.

----------


## hellouser

> Is fgf9 a lotion and we do not know the strength if it is,i am going back to using aloe vera mixed with dutasteride as i did start seeing results with that plus minoxidil without pg and the important tool the dermaroller although i use it everyday with 192 needle and 0.5mm which i get success with.
> Also using copper pep and topicle zinc.


 You won't be able to use FGF9 in a liquid vehicle, its molecular weight is 23,000 dalton where as skin typically allows compounds to pass through it with a molecular weight of about 500 or less. You could only do it through injections like a mesogun or a diabetic needle with saline as the vehicle.

I might get on emu oil myself for this trial to work best, something tells me that my skin thickness may play a roll, because its very thin where I have less hair. Dermarolling should help with thickening of the skin as well as its supposed to increase collagen.

----------


## UK_

Thats insane.

----------


## HARIRI

Guys million thanks for the information. I just ordered "Nanogen Microneedle Scalp Roller System". I have a strong belief that it will make my Minoxidil application more effective  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin: 

http://www.nanogenindia.com/nanogen-...timulator.html

http://hairloss101.com/nanogen-scalp...-enhancer.html

http://www.amazon.com/Nanogen-Scalpr.../dp/B002U37AGW

----------


## mari0s

i don't have buyed a dermaroller yet but many review that i have read suggests to buy those with stainless steel instead of titanium because the texture of the needles is more "fine" and so there are less risk of make a scar

----------


## Jcm800

Jeez, I really hope rolling one of those things over your heads and drawing blood yields gains, christ hairloss drives men to extreme measures..

----------


## doke

Hi jcm are you still using tx2 as i stopped ages ago like you say we hear of something new all the time but still cannot cure mpb how insane is this in 2013 minoxidil from the 1980s still being told to use,perhaps we should get ourselves a cow to lick our heads just apply jam to scalp and away you go haha. :EEK!:

----------


## Jcm800

> Hi jcm are you still using tx2 as i stopped ages ago like you say we hear of something new all the time but still cannot cure mpb how insane is this in 2013 minoxidil from the 1980s still being told to use,perhaps we should get ourselves a cow to lick our heads just apply jam to scalp and away you go haha.


 Hi doke, no I cancelled my order for that rubbish. And started taking that other rubbish keretene retard. Must be a retard for trying it. Yeah next best thing is using a cow eh mate? 

Just a Q-did you ask your gp about dutasteride, or did he prescribe it without you realising what it was at the time?

----------


## sosa56

Gentlemen! 

Right so off the back of the study linked at the beginning of this thread (so glad I found this forum, it's nice to be continually given hope in the form of new things to try and to look forward to that have at least some evidence base) I bought a dermaroller last week and used it for the first time today (brought my skin to medium erythema with a small amount of bleeding here and there). I'm including some photos of my baseline state below (I'd also appreciate it if someone could give their opinion of what Norwood they think I'm at - apologies if it's hard to tell from the pics, they're the best I could do- I think I'm at IIa with diffuse thinning) and will upload some more after 3 months (this was the period in the study wasn't it) of my new regime, which is minoxidil foam 5% 2x day 6 days/week, nizoral 1 day/week and dermarolling 1 day/week.

Thanks in advance all!

----------


## KeepHoping

Sosa, what Dermaroller did you buy? Can you post the link to it? And was it really painful?

Also another question for the rest of the forum as well, would it be appropriate to use something like a topical anesthetic like lidocaine to reduce the pain inflicted from the microneedling?

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

Random question : I derma rolled for the 2nd time tonight and for some reason it made me start sneezing every time I went back and forth. Anyone have this random issue?

----------


## LevonHelms

We're on the same schedule. Tonight was my second roll, and yes I sneezed a couple times and my nose ran. It's the the nerve endings.

----------


## HARIRI

> We're on the same schedule. Tonight was my second roll, and yes I sneezed a couple times and my nose ran. It's the the nerve endings.


 Really!!! Very interesting? Has another member experienced the same sneezing effect while using it??? Sosa56, hellouser how about you guys?  :Confused: 

I think I should bring some facial tissues along when I will start using it  :Big Grin:

----------


## PrettyFly83

Same happens to me, occasional sneeze and eyes water a little

----------


## doke

Hi jc yes my gp let me swap from finasteride to dutasteride and im taking oral silica and biotin as well as minox as in scalpmed although im not happy with the greasy nature of there minox as its like regain lotion.
By the way i posted about the sneezing a couple of years ago cannot remember if it was at regrowth com but anyway it was only on the left side front where its shiny bald that also made eyes water as well but since i got a different roller with 192 needles its i havent had a problem.

----------


## StayThick

> Really!!! Very interesting? Has another member experienced the same sneezing effect while using it??? Sosa56, hellouser how about you guys? 
> 
> I think I should bring some facial tissues along when I will start using it


 You are not alone here. So weird. Every time I went up and down the hairline I would sneeze as well. How crazy is that. 

I would assume this is normal and that when rolled it triggers a nerve or something to create a sneeze. 

Happens to me all the time.

----------


## sosa56

> Sosa, what Dermaroller did you buy? Can you post the link to it? And was it really painful?
> 
> Also another question for the rest of the forum as well, would it be appropriate to use something like a topical anesthetic like lidocaine to reduce the pain inflicted from the microneedling?


 I bought this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional...oneedle+roller with this to clean it http://www.amazon.co.uk/STERILIZER-I...=alcohol+spray according to these instructions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8mXov4XRtc

As far as the actually needling itself it does hurt ( and I think this is the reason for the eyes watering and sneezing - the pain/irritation - although i don't remember sneezing myself) but no pain no gain right and I was only doing it with a medium amount of pressure because the goal is only erythema right, not ripping your scalp up?

Another point, in the study the mean hair count of the dermaroller + minox group went up 40%, does this mean I can expect my hair count to go up possibly more than this? (but possibly less also)?

Finally anyone got a thought on my Norwood level? I'd like to get an outside opinion

----------


## Axel

Heya, looong time lurker here... 

I've learnt about this dermaroller stuff recently and I must say I'm totally stoked. I'm 33yo NW2.5 diffuse thinning at a worrying speed. I refuse to take Propecia or put chemical shite inside my body so I'm gonna wait and see where this ends up...

Been reading A LOT and I think this is the real deal... cheap, effective, and backed by real science (Cots et al). Top research at our fingertips. No cow-lick bs. Follica device should be a more fine-tunned version of what is being tested here. 

BTW, about the pain while rolling, look at this bish with a 2.0mm roller making her face full of blood... she says it is not painful because she is using a lidocaine cream before the treatment..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNrcr6h_0F0

Is anyone going to try this lidocaine thing?

----------


## SOTF

I bought lidocaine inside aloe. This is for sun burnt skin. Will test it out when I roll later today. And yes, There Will Be Blood.

----------


## sosa56

> I bought this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional...oneedle+roller with this to clean it http://www.amazon.co.uk/STERILIZER-I...=alcohol+spray according to these instructions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8mXov4XRtc
> 
> As far as the actually needling itself it does hurt ( and I think this is the reason for the eyes watering and sneezing - the pain/irritation - although i don't remember sneezing myself) but no pain no gain right and I was only doing it with a medium amount of pressure because the goal is only erythema right, not ripping your scalp up?
> 
> Another point, in the study the mean hair count of the dermaroller + minox group went up 40&#37;, does this mean I can expect my hair count to go up possibly more than this? (but possibly less also)?
> 
> Finally anyone got a thought on my Norwood level? I'd like to get an outside opinion


 Sorry that was meant to read does this mean I can expect my hair *density* to go up possibly more than this? (but possibly less also)?

----------


## LevonHelms

> Another point, in the study the mean hair count of the dermaroller + minox group went up 40&#37;, does this mean I can expect my hair count to go up possibly more than this? (but possibly less also)?


 This is certainly what we're all hoping. The results of the study were very promising. PrettyFly posted some good results earlier in the thread, but the rest of us are only on our second week or so. I think the study ran 18wks, is that right?

As far as your norwood, I'm no expert but I would guess maybe a diffuse NW2 A.

----------


## chimera

> I think the study ran 18wks


 The study was only 12 weeks. Everybody may react different to the same kind of treatment, but if this works, at 12 weeks there should be at least some of us who get some kind of results. *If* this works.

----------


## sosa56

> This is certainly what we're all hoping. The results of the study were very promising. PrettyFly posted some good results earlier in the thread, but the rest of us are only on our second week or so. I think the study ran 18wks, is that right?
> 
> As far as your norwood, I'm no expert but I would guess maybe a diffuse NW2 A.


 I think the study duration was 12 weeks?

----------


## hellouser

> I think the study duration was 12 weeks?


 3 months =  12 weeks (more or less).

There's no reason why we can't continue dermarolling after 12 weeks.

----------


## sosa56

> 3 months =  12 weeks (more or less).
> 
> There's no reason why we can't continue dermarolling after 12 weeks.


 Of course but if we haven't achieved at least some measure of success at this point wouldn't it be fair to say that the method probably won't work?

----------


## Borealis

This itching afterwards is almost unbearable. I always thought inflammation was bad for hair loss. Did someone say that it was the first stage of wounding or something?

----------


## bigentries

Is it true that one of the private forums contacted the research team?

----------


## hellouser

> Is it true that one of the private forums contacted the research team?


 No, PrettyFly is trying to (or has already, can't remember).

----------


## sosa56

> This itching afterwards is almost unbearable. I always thought inflammation was bad for hair loss. Did someone say that it was the first stage of wounding or something?


 How hard are you rolling? Are you drawing lots of blood and are you using 1.5 mm? I mean I was rolling with medium pressure and drew a bit of blood and could feel the inflammation in the top of my head after with blood pumping there but didn't really get much itching

----------


## garethbale

Guys I want to buy a dermaroller.  Any specific size I need or amount I should spend to get a decent one?

Thanks

----------


## Borealis

Not rolling particularly hard, odd bit of blood here and there. Using a 1.5mm roller, it's odd how the itching is usually always in the middle of my scalp and it comes on about 20 minutes after rolling and lasts an hour at most then its fine.

----------


## walrus

I also experience the same itching sensation briefly after rolling.

----------


## john2399

Just did mine for the first time...dat shitttt hurtttt lol

----------


## john2399

how hard do you guys press down on your scalp?

----------


## StayThick

> Just did mine for the first time...dat shitttt hurtttt lol


 It does hurt lol. I close my eyes and just try and visualize imaginary hair forming on the corners of my hairline with every up and down movement of the roller...lol

Or I just think of how eyes move up to my hairline every time I meet someone new for the first time..the pain I feel inside every time that happens is no where the physical pain of the roller...so I go to town. Haha

----------


## DesperateOne

> how hard do you guys press down on your scalp?


 Wow, after reading this thread, it is just amusing what kind of things are being tried out, haha. I know that mpb sucks, but just looking at those pics of the guy with his head on that device, well it just looks silly. 

I do hope this works, and hopefully people that are getting the results can call in and let us know about their experiences. This does seem to be the same thing I heard about those rats in long time ago. 

Good luck to everyone.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Wow, after reading this thread, it is just amusing what kind of things are being tried out, haha. I know that mpb sucks, but just looking at those pics of the guy with his head on that device, well it just looks silly. 
> 
> I do hope this works, and hopefully people that are getting the results can call in and let us know about their experiences. This does seem to be the same thing I heard about those rats in long time ago. 
> 
> Good luck to everyone.


 Well I think I might of spoken too early. I have now read the entire thread, well most of it. I have concluded that this is worth a try, considering the cost and also, if I don't get any results I will be using it on my stretch marks ^^. 

I was wondering if this might be good to grow a beard and mustache. I am now in my late 20's and have very little facial hair, to the point that I have to shave it or it looks weird. If this works on the head, then I will be trying it out on my face  :Smile:  . 

I ordered the regular one shown on a video here, it is the green one on amazon, it's about $13 here. I will also be shaving my head when it arrives, I am basically desperate and this is my last chance I believe. That is until the supposedly true cure comes out. 

may the luck be with you guys  :Big Grin:

----------


## KeepHoping

Do you guys think these results could be long lasting even if use of minoxidil is discontinued after a 12 week trial?

----------


## the_dude78

> Do you guys think these results could be long lasting even if use of minoxidil is discontinued after a 12 week trial?


 Impossible for any of us to say, but this is what was said in their discussion:

*"On retrospective questioning of patients after 8 months of completion of the study, at the time of writing the manuscript, all patients in the Microneedling group reported a sustainable response."*
http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat

So that's good news. Also we should be able to see some results before 12 weeks. Judging from the photos the new hair has already grown quite long after only 12 weeks.

----------


## the_dude78

Also this: *"The results of this study show that Microneedling is a safe and a promising tool in hair stimulation both for male and female AGA and also is useful to treat hair loss refractory to Minoxidil therapy. We opine that Microneedling procedure should be offered to patients with AGA along with the existing therapeutic modalities for faster hair re-growth and better patient compliance."*

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat

I just think it is sort of comforting to read  :Wink:

----------


## HARIRI

> Impossible for any of us to say, but this is what was said in their discussion:
> 
> *"On retrospective questioning of patients after 8 months of completion of the study, at the time of writing the manuscript, all patients in the Microneedling group reported a sustainable response."*
> http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat
> 
> So that's good news. Also we should be able to see some results before 12 weeks. Judging from the photos the new hair has already grown quite long after only 12 weeks.


 The_dude78, Great study indeed.  :Big Grin: 

This guy in the video is rolling his scalp roller pretty fast with no pain at all and no sneezing. Interesting  :EEK!: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4kkIU7zmlk

----------


## hellouser

> The_dude78, Great study indeed. 
> 
> This guy in the video is rolling his scalp roller pretty fast with no pain at all and no sneezing. Interesting 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4kkIU7zmlk


 He can't possibly be pressing hard agains his scalp, also, this:




> We use a 0.75mm needle length as this gives us the best results with minimal pain & bleeding and maximum durability of the﻿ needle. go to our website for further information


 Study used a 1.5mm dermaroller.

----------


## the_dude78

> He can't possibly be pressing hard agains his scalp, also, this:
> 
> 
> 
> Study used a 1.5mm dermaroller.


 It just doesn't look very safe the way he sometimes changes direction without lifting the roller first. If he were pressing hard, he could end up with some nasty scratches, so I agree, he can't be pressing that hard. But since it was to make minox absorb better and not about wounding, it was probably hard enough.

----------


## hellouser

> It just doesn't look very safe the way he sometimes changes direction without lifting the roller first. If he were pressing hard, he could end up with some nasty scratches, so I agree, he can't be pressing that hard. But since it was to make minox absorb better and not about wounding, it was probably hard enough.


 For absorption, sure, he's probably fine with shorter needles and a gentler press. But I doubt he has any clue about the wounding theory.

----------


## Hairismylife

> For absorption, sure, he's probably fine with shorter needles and a gentler press. But I doubt he has any clue about the wounding theory.


 We must see blood for wounding to occur?
Personally I think no

----------


## the_dude78

> For absorption, sure, he's probably fine with shorter needles and a gentler press. But I doubt he has any clue about the wounding theory.


 Yeah, definitely not. I'm guessing very few new about that back in 2008 when the video was made. That's why I'm cautiously optimistic about this, because even though derma rolling for hair loss has been around for some years, it seems that no one has been doing it right, because no one knew about the wounding theory. It has always been for absorption and people was using it every day and not allowing for the process to complete. It's going to be interesting, still waiting for my roller though, can't wait to get started.

----------


## the_dude78

> We must see blood for wounding to occur?
> Personally I think no


 in the study it says "mild erythema", so I'm guessing no. But I have no idea.

----------


## Hairismylife

Can I just use alcohol to clean the roller?

----------


## hellouser

> Can I just use alcohol to clean the roller?


 A rectified spirits or high concentration alcohol will work fine. If not, just go to your pharmacy and get some antiseptic or isopropyl for a few dollars.

----------


## LevonHelms

> Can I just use alcohol to clean the roller?


 That's how I've been cleaning mine. 

Couple of other things, if you have longer hair you should roll in one direction otherwise you risk tangling your hair and yanking some out.

Also, I would suggest inspecting all your needles for straightness. When I first got mine I found one bent nearly all the way to 90 degrees. The other 191 needles were fine. I was able to straighten it out without further issue, but I'm sure a bent needle would feel even worse than a straight one.

----------


## KeepHoping

Is there a general consensus on what the best derma roller to buy is?

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

so then is it ok to use RU as well while doing this? or just supposed to be minox only?

----------


## walrus

> so then is it ok to use RU as well while doing this? or just supposed to be minox only?


 No one knows for sure. Any advice on this would be a guess. What we can say based on the study, is that RU certainly isn't necessary.

----------


## bigentries

According to the study, regrowth was noticeable around 6 weeks so if there is no change at the end of the 12 weeks, it probably will not work

I'm starting to worry about the claim that hair started to grow faster in just one week. Has anyone been able to verify the reputation of the researchers?

----------


## walrus

> I'm starting to worry about the claim that hair started to grow faster in just one week. *Has anyone been able to verify the reputation of the researchers?*


 I had a few alarm bells about this after I was unable to find 2 of their main references in the paper:




> 5.	Jeong K, Lee YJ, Kim JE, Park YM, Kim BJ, Kang H. Repeated microneedle stimulation induce the enhanced expression of hair-growth-related genes. Int J Trichology 2012;4:117. 
> 
> 6.	Kim BJ, Lim YY, Kim HM, Lee YW, Won CH, Huh CH, et al. Hair follicle regeneration in mice after wounding by microneedle roller. Int J Trichology 2012;4:117.


 I was able to find these as oral presentation abstracts but not as full, proper, publications. Can anyone else? If not, it is a bit suspect to pretend and reference a paper that does not exist...because what else could they have made up.

----------


## Arashi

> I had a few alarm bells about this after I was unable to find 2 of their main references in the paper:
> 
> 
> 
> I was able to find these as oral presentation abstracts but not as full, proper, publications. Can anyone else? If not, it is a bit suspect to pretend and reference a paper that does not exist...because what else could they have made up.


 Nah. They seem to be legit: "This study was supported by a National Research Foundation of Korea grant funded by the Korean government (2011-0008687).", according to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...MC3500071/#top

----------


## Arashi

And don't forget on page 5 of this thread we have a forum user who's been doing this for 2 months with great success !

----------


## walrus

Can you find them in full in the International Journal of Trichology as they referenced? They would at least be an interesting read.




> And don't forget on page 5 of this thread we have a forum user who's been doing this for 2 months with great success !


 True, a promising sign.

----------


## chimera

> And don't forget on page 5 of this thread we have a forum user who's been doing this for 2 months with great success !


 Sadly, prettyfly (the user you're talking about) is still no proof that this treatment works, as he started the dermaroller more than a month before, but he has been on minox for more than 3 months. So, there is still no way to know if his results are due to the dermaroller or the minoxidil.

I still feel very uneasy about the fact that there has been a lot of people using dermaroller in the past without this kind of results. Yeah, I know most of them did not follow the exact same treatment exposed in the study, some used shorter neddles, some used the dermaroller more often, which could be a bad idea, but still.

Now, if the study is true then fine, awesome. But if in the end none of us get any kind of results. What would that mean?, would that mean that the study is lying about it's results, or could it be that the whole study is a lie?. But if that were to be the case?, then why?.

----------


## Arashi

> Sadly, prettyfly (the user you're talking about) is still no proof that this treatment works, as he started the dermaroller more than a month before, but he has been on minox for more than 3 months. So, there is still no way to know if his results are due to the dermaroller or the minoxidil.
> 
> I still feel very uneasy about the fact that there has been a lot of people using dermaroller in the past without this kind of results. Yeah, I know most of them did not follow the exact same treatment exposed in the study, some used shorter neddles, some used the dermaroller more often, which could be a bad idea, but still.
> 
> Now, if the study is true then fine, awesome. But if in the end none of us get any kind of results. What would that mean?, would that mean that the study is lying about it's results, or could it be that the whole study is a lie?. But if that were to be the case?, then why?.


 So, we can basically do 2 things: 

1) Assume the study is false and was done by a Chinese Dermaroller selling company  :Smile:  In this case we just can sit back and continue balding.
2) Try it and see if it works !

----------


## bigentries

> So, we can basically do 2 things: 
> 
> 1) Assume the study is false and was done by a Chinese Dermaroller selling company  In this case we just can sit back and continue balding.
> 2) Try it and see if it works !


 My main worry is not a monetary interest, but just plain incompetence. Studies are not exempt of errors just because they are published in a scientific paper

----------


## Arashi

> My main worry is not a monetary interest, but just plain incompetence. Studies are not exempt of errors just because they are published in a scientific paper


 Sure. It all might not work. Just saying that if we don't try it, we'll never know. I ordered my dermaroller a few days ago. Cant wait to try it out !

----------


## walrus

> What would that mean?, would that mean that the study is lying about it's results, or could it be that the whole study is a lie?. But if that were to be the case?, then why?.


 There are motives other than pushing a product. They could be publishing a 'miraculous' result to gain citations of their study, attempt to boost their careers, and seek further funding etc. 

The reputation of the journal and not just that of the authors is also a factor, ie. how rigorously was it peer reviewed? 

Anyway, time will tell.

----------


## hellouser

> There are motives other than pushing a product. They could be publishing a 'miraculous' result to gain citations of their study, attempt to boost their careers, and seek further funding etc. 
> 
> The reputation of the journal and not just that of the authors is also a factor, ie. how rigorously was it peer reviewed? 
> 
> Anyway, time will tell.


 Probably an Aderans funded project to sell more dermarollers instead of a cell based therapy.

God I hate this fvcking disease.

----------


## bigentries

> Sure. It all might not work. Just saying that if we don't try it, we'll never know. I ordered my dermaroller a few days ago. Cant wait to try it out !


 I don't like that way of thinking "If we don't try it, we'll never know" is the kind of mentality that makes bald people an easy target for quacks

People need to take a more skeptic approach to these kind of news.

That doesn't mean I'm against experimenting with this, I'm going to try it in a few weeks. But we should never stop the critical thinking.
I'm just wondering the reputation of the researchers, if there's is something fishy then we need to uncover it

See the tocotrienols fiasco, they also had a published study, but people acted way too gullible when there were obvious shills pushing the products

----------


## Arashi

> I don't like that way of thinking "If we don't try it, we'll never know" is the kind of mentality that makes bald people an easy target for quacks
> 
> People need to take a more skeptic approach to these kind of news


 Nothing wrong with being skeptic. But fact remains, if we don't try it, we won't know. Yeah we can wait for others to scientifically repeat the experiment. But what's wrong with purchasing a cheap roller and try it 2 months ourselves ? It's a lot better than just to sit back and wait.

----------


## hellouser

> Nothing wrong with being skeptic. But fact remains, if we don't try it, we won't know. Yeah we can wait for others to scientifically repeat the experiment. But what's wrong with purchasing a cheap roller and try it 2 months ourselves ? It's a lot better than just to sit back and wait.


 Even if the study doesn't work out in our favor, better absorption of Minox, RU, CB and other topicals will be a nice benefit.

----------


## bigentries

> Even if the study doesn't work out in our favor, better absorption of Minox, RU, CB and other topicals will be a nice benefit.


 Wouldn't more absorption be a bad thing? We want it to work on the follicles, not potentially going into the bloodstream

----------


## hellouser

> Wouldn't more absorption be a bad thing? We want it to work on the follicles, not potentially going into the bloodstream


 Not necessarily. Absorption would be great for minox, it has very few and very mild side effects. RU going systemic would potentially be a bad thing, more or less giving similar side effects as Finasteride.

CB however, is the big one. Even if it hits the blood stream, it goes benign. But CB badly needs to get to the follicle... one could assume efficacy with dermarolling for CB could be as superior to Finasteride as Cosmo claims.

----------


## StayThick

> Not necessarily. Absorption would be great for minox, it has very few and very mild side effects. RU going systemic would potentially be a bad thing, more or less giving similar side effects as Finasteride.
> 
> CB however, is the big one. Even if it hits the blood stream, it goes benign. But CB badly needs to get to the follicle... one could assume efficacy with dermarolling for CB could be as superior to Finasteride as Cosmo claims.


 Thinking of dermarolling and using ID's CB. What are your thoughts Hellouser?

----------


## hellouser

> Thinking of dermarolling and using ID's CB. What are your thoughts Hellouser?


 If the purity of Iron Dragon's is legit, I'd be on it like flies on shit.

----------


## john2399

this thread is confusing...is it safe to use minox right after using dermaroller?

----------


## Arashi

> this thread is confusing...is it safe to use minox right after using dermaroller?


 They didn't do it on the same day in the test. Which makes sense.

----------


## hellouser

> this thread is confusing...is it safe to use minox right after using dermaroller?


 Side effects can lead to a very high heart rate. Some people don't get it, others do. If I were you, I'd run along with the trial, if there aren't results, I'd then try other means of mimicking the study (more frequent wounding +/- immediate application of Minoxidil).

----------


## walrus

> this thread is confusing...is it safe to use minox right after using dermaroller?


 Probably not advisable.

----------


## bigentries

I just got my 1.5 dermarroller with 192 needles, I'll make a test to see how it works and I'm in

But I will wait two weeks, I have a small procedure done on saturday and I don't want any paranoia about side effects from the pills I'll need to take

If I see "something" it means that it works, I tried rogaine foam for almost a year 4 years ago and didn't noticed any improvement back then

----------


## Hicks

> Is there a general consensus on what the best derma roller to buy is?


 A good one???   Hate for a needle to break off in your head.

I'm thinking of starting a Google blog updated weekly with my regimen. Include issues, thoughts, pictures, basically a mini article.  These threads are getting big. I don't have time to read them all.

The idea is to damage the area enough so blood would travel to the area for self healing?  That's my plan of attack. Absorbing is second.

----------


## hellouser

> A good one???   Hate for a needle to break off in your head.
> 
> I'm thinking of starting a Google blog updated weekly with my regimen. Include issues, thoughts, pictures, basically a mini article.  These threads are getting big. I don't have time to read them all.


 If you do decide to venture off and post your progress elsewhere, could you please let us know where we can see your results later on? Thanks!




> The idea is to damage the area enough so blood would travel to the area for self healing?  That's my plan of attack. Absorbing is second.


 Exactly, this is NOT about absorption, although other topicals WILL benefit from this as well.

----------


## HARIRI

Guys please advice me regarding the instruction issue, some say to use it everyday after minoxidil application, some say to use it every other day, some say twice a week and some say once a week!!!  :Confused: 

I'm quite lost here, please contribute with your expert opinion as I will receive mine next week.  :Cool:

----------


## greatjob!

> Guys please advice me regarding the instruction issue, some say to use it everyday after minoxidil application, some say to use it every other day, some say twice a week and some say once a week!!! 
> 
> I'm quite lost here, please contribute with your expert opinion as I will receive mine next week.


 A lot of people aren't fully reading this thread or the study as I have said it a few times this is not about absorption, it is about wounding and activating growth factor pathways to reactivate dormant stem cells. 

*Just follow the study. They used the derma roller once a week and did not apply minoxidil on the day they micro-needled.* 

That is what produced the results in the study. If after 3-6 months you see no improvement then you can experiment, but minoxidil that goes systemic can be very dangerous depending on your heart health, so I would be cautious about increasing absorption.

----------


## PrettyFly83

> A lot of people aren't fully reading this thread or the study as I have said it a few times this is not about absorption, it is about wounding and activating growth factor pathways to reactivate dormant stem cells. 
> 
> *Just follow the study. They used the derma roller once a week and did not apply minoxidil on the day they micro-needled.* 
> 
> That is what produced the results in the study. If after 3-6 months you see no improvement then you can experiment, but minoxidil that goes systemic can be very dangerous depending on your heart health, so I would be cautious about increasing absorption.


 Bingo!

----------


## Hicks

> If you do decide to venture off and post your progress elsewhere, could you please let us know where we can see your results later on? Thanks!


 I will put a link in my signature or I might be able to do the blog on this site.  I'm new to the site and do not know all the features. Thinking of doing Video as well so Google with blog and YouTube might be easiest.    Thanks guys!

----------


## the_dude78

The patients in the study had their head shaved before the treatment began, is it just me, or did their hair grow a *lot* in only 12 weeks? And a 40 &#37; increase in hair count, well, it does sound a little too good to be true. I'm becoming more and more skeptical, but I just can't figure out what they would gain from faking a study like this. It is too easy to replicate and debunk so it couldn't possibly help their career in any way.

----------


## Axel

> The patients in the study had their head shaved before the treatment began, is it just me, or did their hair grow a *lot* in only 12 weeks? And a 40 &#37; increase in hair count, well, it does sound a little too good to be true. I'm becoming more and more skeptical, but I just can't figure out what they would gain from faking a study like this. It is too easy to replicate and debunk so it couldn't possibly help their career in any way.


 Spot on. There's no way you can grow all that hair in 12 weeks.

My conclusion is that they took those pics in a follow-up visit... If you read the paper it seems they had at least one, 8 months post treatment, where patients reported "sustainable growth"..

Now the question is: were the patients dermarolling and using minox during those 8 months? Thats the interesting question here... We should ask the researchers.  :Big Grin: 

PS: everybody should read the study before asking dumb questions. And also read this thread from the start!

----------


## hellouser

> Spot on. There's no way you can grow all that hair in 12 weeks.


 Actually, you can.

3 months time is plenty, hair grows about 10-15cm per year, so about 6 inches.  In the photos presented they grews about 1-2 inches, right in line with normal hair growth.

----------


## the_dude78

> Actually, you can.
> 
> 3 months time is plenty, hair grows about 10-15cm per year, so about 6 inches.  In the photos presented they grews about 1-2 inches, right in line with normal hair growth.


 I suppose minox will speed up the growth as well, you might be right. I really want to believe this, it goes for all of us of course, but these results are so much better than what we have seen from all the big companies that spend millions and millions of dollars on a cure or treatment. How crazy would it be if this really works? I mean, for a guy with a little thinning this could potentially give him a full head of hair. Well, we will see soon enough, no need for all the speculations, I guess.

----------


## bigentries

The pictures are after 12 weeks, probably before they were shaved again to count the hairs

The only picture that looks suspicious is the top pic in the dermaroller group. Remember that is a 12 week growth after shaving the scalp. My hair definitely doesn't grow that long in just 3 months 

And they don't describe how they used the dermaroller after hair started to grow again, were they still applying betadine?

----------


## the_dude78

The study doesn't mention anything about shedding, but I guess in order to get results like that, shedding must go down. Hopefully some of you guys who have already started, can report about this in a few weeks.

----------


## KeepHoping

Anyone using a topical anesthetic with rolling?

----------


## DesperateOne

So I read a lot of the thread, and it seems that we might be on to something here. Now I also read the study but what I want to know is this. If we use the roller once a week, and then the next day we use rogain, should we use rogain normally the rest of the week? That is to say:

Monday: Roller and maybe some oils 
Tues-Sun: Use Roagain or Minox twice a day like you normally use it. 

I saw that video where the doctor is passing the Dermaroller over a guy who is on a chair here on this thread somewhere. So that is the roller that I order, I actually ordered two because I will be using the other for my stretch marks and some other skin issues. 

All I can say is we have to give this a try, some of us are so miserable. It doesn't matter how you take action, but you must do it. If you want to have more time to spend with your family, more money to spend on them, and a more relaxing lifestyle, then you need to take action. You need to change your life for the better.

This the roller I got, very cheap too. If it's good enough for the Hair doctor in the video, it's good enough for me. 
Derma Roller: http://amzn.to/175RbGD

I will be using a mixture of Minoxidil all %5
Rogaine Foam: http://amzn.to/18aKeVP
Kirkland: http://amzn.to/1ccq8Ar
Lipogaine: http://amzn.to/13GAVgB

Also a Shampoo that is often used in conjunction, I had been using nizoral but for some reason they ran out. so now I will be using renegepure, hope it's good.
Regenepure: http://amzn.to/175RjG7

I also had been reading some posts of DIY PGD2 Inhibitor. So I found this article very interesting.
http://www.bodyhealth-mindhealth.com...ntion.html?m=1

I will be trying that out as well with the dermaroller, however I will be using Quercetin found here
Quercetin: http://amzn.to/13kcO3N
I will also try to add some green tea and ginger as well, will make it more of a powerhouse, at least I hope so.

There is another thread in here that say one person had been using it successfully but he had his hair all yellow. Well since I will be shaving my head and will be wearing a hat, I guess I will just have to suck it up for 4 months. I will try to pass it through a filter and see if that takes some of the color out.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Actually, you can.
> 
> 3 months time is plenty, hair grows about 10-15cm per year, so about 6 inches.  In the photos presented they grews about 1-2 inches, right in line with normal hair growth.


 Thanks for starting this thread hellouser, I see you have been keeping a very close eye on this thread lol, you are responding every hour or so haha. Well I do hope this works and time will only tell, but 4 months seems worth it.

----------


## chimera

> Also a Shampoo that is often used in conjunction, I had been using nizoral but for some reason they ran out. so now I will be using renegepure, hope it's good.
> Regenepure: http://amzn.to/175RjG7
> 
> I also had been reading some posts of DIY PGD2 Inhibitor. So I found this article very interesting.
> http://www.bodyhealth-mindhealth.com...ntion.html?m=1


 Imidazole compounds (as ketoconazole), and almost all PGD2 "inhibitors" we know (most of them are not true PGD2 inhibitors, but cyclooxygenase (COX) inhibitors) have anti-inflamatory properties. If we dermaroll our scalps trying to wound or follicles, maybe an anti-inflammatory agent could interfere with the process.

Anyway, that's just an idea, no way to tell if is right or not.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Imidazole compounds (as ketoconazole), and almost all PGD2 "inhibitors" we know (most of them are not true PGD2 inhibitors, but cyclooxygenase (COX) inhibitors) have anti-inflamatory properties. If we dermaroll our scalps trying to wound or follicles, maybe an anti-inflammatory agent could interfere with the process.
> 
> Anyway, that's just an idea, no way to tell if is right or not.


 well chimera, that is an excellent point and it does make sense, we kinda do need the inflammation to take place in order for this to work. What I will do  instead is I will use the derma roller and then one day before I have to use it again, I will apply the so-called(hopefully) PGD2 inhibitor. That way, the scalp is almost all healed and I might get the benefits of both.

So now I will do it like this.

Monday - Dermaroll and also my usual 1mg propecia
Tuesday - The usual twice a day Minoxidil dose, 1mg fin
Wed -  "
Thrus- "
Friday - "
Saturday - "
Sunday - " + The concoction of so called PGD2  Inhibitor + Renegepure.

Then just loop it around for 4 months. Does anyone know of the true PGD2 inhibitors if they're using it every single day? I am talking about the ones being used in research labs.

----------


## hellouser

^I've got a sneaking suspicion that the skin at the thinning areas has SOMETHING to do with hair loss. Everywhere that I've got thick skin, theres a LOT more hair, but in areas where my skin is thin, I've either lost my hair (temples) or am thinning (very top plus area around temples). I'm going to see if EMU oil and scalp massage can increase skin thickness and bloodflow.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Had to chime in here on my theory. I think Cots new we were close and put us on the witch hunt about PDG2. Remember my theory early in this thread if the inflammation stays present I think healing cannot finish the cycle. I think with wounding the inflammation will eventually go away due to the body excepting the wound and go on its merry way. I think anti inflammatory AKA PDG2  blockers have only given us peach fuzz and mild regrowth. So hence without wounding then your own growth properties will not be activated to heal. Inflammation keeps on attacking so PDG2 may help but it would be counter productive with our experiment. I think wounding turns back the clock and doing it tells the body that the hair isn't a foreign invader because there is a wound...sorry to ramble at work and just had a few minutes to chime in...also I get tingling on my scalp day 4 and 5 after wounding. You guys get this feeling. Feels like something is truly happening.... 

Ghost

----------


## chimera

> well chimera, that is an excellent point and it does make sense


 Well, I don't think that's really an excellent point, because I don't have any way to prove it. I just said what I think it could happen, but keep in mind that I may be completely wrong. There are indeed those who say that adding a PGD2 inhibitor would give you waaay better results, but we don't know if that's true neither.





> Does anyone know of the true PGD2 inhibitors if they're using it every single day? I am talking about the ones being used in research labs.


 If somebody knows better, please let me know, but, to my knowlodge, we still don't have any "true" PGD2 inhibitor. We do have cicloogenaxe inhibitors like indomethacin, diclofenac, ibuprofen (none of this proven yet to work), and we have CRHT2 antagonists like the OC and Ramatroban (we still don't really have definitive proof that any of these two work neither).

I don't know what do they use in lab, but everybody using some kind of "PGD2 inhibitor" is using at least one dose per day, at least. As most of these compounds have a not so long half life, I don't think using any of our "pgd2 inhibitors" once a week is enough.

----------


## chimera

I really think that, as bigentries said earlier, first things first. And the first thing to do here should be to try to emulate the experiment as exactly as we can. We may experiment later.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Well, I don't think that's really an excellent point, because I don't have any way to prove it. I just said what I think it could happen, but keep in mind that I may be completely wrong. There are indeed those who say that adding a PGD2 inhibitor would give you waaay better results, but we don't know if that's true neither.
> 
> If somebody knows better, please let me know, but, to my knowlodge, we still don't have any "true" PGD2 inhibitor. We do have cicloogenaxe inhibitors like indomethacin, diclofenac, ibuprofen (none of this proven yet to work), and we have CRHT2 antagonists like the OC and Ramatroban (we still don't really have definitive proof that any of these two work neither).
> 
> I don't know what do they use in lab, but everybody using some kind of "PGD2 inhibitor" is using at least one dose per day, at least. As most of these compounds have a not so long half life, I don't think using any of our "pgd2 inhibitors" once a week is enough.


 I just watched this video, pretty interested. Disregard the stupid website who is obviously trying to get you to buy it from there. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czp98lRbke4
Also another one here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtFwCNkCwpA . They say to use it every day.
How cool that you can use this every where in the body. It does seem tho however, that if you use it somewhere else than the scalp, you should be using it daily, or at least that's what I read. 

It looks as though you have to use it for quite some time, more than I had previously thought, until it turns very red. I still haven't received mine yet, it should arrive Monday next week. Also, has Spencer talked about this sort of this?

So chimera, there is a few people that think that using the Derma roller with a PGD2 at the same time is a good idea?

----------


## GreyGhost1864

We need to increase Pgf2a guys. Inflammation is good it just needs to cycle in Mpb it stays inflammation mode. You youngsters! So you guys block inflammation the key to healing. I will welcome it every time I pluck my head. The only difference is I am adding a Pgf2 agonist D-cloprostenol. You can block pdg2 but I am telling you....we need to focus on growth agents not inflammation agents when wounding. Cheers 
Ghost

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Just looking in 10x mirror my peach fuzz is growing like wild fire! Got 8 new darkies in my widows peak. They are only 3 or 4mm but are dark in color. A year from now.....keep the hope!
Ghost

----------


## Conpecia

Pics Ghost! Make sure all of us take before and after shots.

----------


## DesperateOne

> We need to increase Pgf2a guys. Inflammation is good it just needs to cycle in Mpb it stays inflammation mode. You youngsters! So you guys block inflammation the key to healing. I will welcome it every time I pluck my head. The only difference is I am adding a Pgf2 agonist D-cloprostenol. You can block pdg2 but I am telling you....we need to focus on growth agents not inflammation agents when wounding. Cheers 
> Ghost


 Ghost I do find your ideas very interesting but very very incoherent. I can not make much sense to what you're saying. I did research Pgf2a and it seems that people are using it mostly in bodybuilding, however I don't see why it can't be used in the scalp. They also mentioned that it's very dangerous, so I guess that's something to consider.

A couple of things I want cleared out from you:

1. You're saying that when we are in the healing process, that is to say, after we use the derma roller, we should be also using Pgf2a?

2. Are you saying that we should not be using any PGD2 inhibitor? Or do you think that should also be added somewhere during the week.

3. How many times a week are you using Pgf2a, also how and where did you buy it? Do you have a link to amazon or do you need to have it prescribed?

4. How do you apply this Pgf2a, are you grinding it up and diluting it in water?

Hope you respond because I just got my pills today that I wanted to experiment but I want to know if I should be adding Pgf2a as well. 
Cheers

----------


## Bocaj

> ^I've got a sneaking suspicion that the skin at the thinning areas has SOMETHING to do with hair loss. Everywhere that I've got thick skin, theres a LOT more hair, but in areas where my skin is thin, I've either lost my hair (temples) or am thinning (very top plus area around temples). I'm going to see if EMU oil and scalp massage can increase skin thickness and bloodflow.


 A couple of things came to mind when I read that. Vit C: http://elsomresearch.com/shopping/pr...in-renewal.htm




> Vitamin C is known as a most potent collagen builder and skin elasticizer, if it can penetrate the skin layers where it can do the most good.


 and Dermatopoietin:  https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...9O5hvjBg&pli=1

----------


## Californication

Is PrettyFly still looking to contact the authors?

If we could get in contact with them, I'd think they'd appreciate the interest the article has garnered and give us some more specific tips if possible on the exact protocol: method to dermaroll, did they use a new dermaroller each week, if not, washed it in in alcohol I'm guessing, duration of dermaroll, how exactly should the skin look.

Most of this should be common sense stuff and we should probably see results if it works without getting in touch, but still getting the exact protocol and methods could only help.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Is PrettyFly still looking to contact the authors?
> 
> If we could get in contact with them, I'd think they'd appreciate the interest the article has garnered and give us some more specific tips if possible on the exact protocol: method to dermaroll, did they use a new dermaroller each week, if not, washed it in in alcohol I'm guessing, duration of dermaroll, how exactly should the skin look.
> 
> Most of this should be common sense stuff and we should probably see results if it works without getting in touch, but still getting the exact protocol and methods could only help.


 They don't want to talk to pawns like you. We need a medical doctor to talk on our behalf.

----------


## Californication

> They don't want to talk to pawns like you. We need a medical doctor to talk on our behalf.


 Is that what they said? I bet they would be willing to talk to a medical student doing research (aka me or I'm sure some others around here). The fact that we have the same background may also help. I'm not going to innundate them with emails though if someone else is already on this.

----------


## PrettyFly83

Hey All

Pleased to say I finally heard back from one of the authors, unfortunately the responses were not as detailed as we'd like but any anyway, here are the questions and responses. Remember I tried to be as nonthreatening as possible as they are using this as a treatment and hence giving away their secrets:

_Good Day

Your name was cited in a recent Journal about a pilot study on Microneedling and the positive effects on Androgenic Alopecia.

Are you the correct person to contact regarding this study?

The study was located at this domain:
http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat

Please could you kindly contact me and comment whether you'd be willing to assist with some queries I have?

Many thanks for your assistance in this regard_




> 02 August 2013 
> Dear Mr. XXXXXXX
>  I am the right person, who is responsible for the study.
> We routinely perform microneedling for patients with androgenetic alopecia including women, getting good results.


 _Dear Dr YYYYYY

Thank you very much for getting back to me and confirming you are indeed the correct person.

I have a few queries on the treatment which maybe you can shed some light on:

1.       Do the results continue improving under the microneedling / Minoxidle regime or is there a limit to the regrowth patients can expect? 

2.       Have you treated any patients with this regime whilst they were on Finasteride? How do their results compare?

3.       What level of pain and bleeding should patients expect and could there be potential damage to the hair follicles if the treatment is too vigorous?

4.       Do you treat with Minoxidle immediately after the treatment or follow the studies method of rest for 24 hours? If so, why?

5       Do you use different length needles for different patients or is there a standard length?

Thank you very much for your time clarifying these queries. I look forward to hearing back from you.

Kind Regards
XXXXXXXXXX_




> 07 August 2013 
> Dear XXXXXX
> Ans 
> 1. There was further mild improvement after completion of treatment 
> 2. Now I treat all my patients with finasteride + minoxidil+microneedling + platelet rich plasma. Results are v.good.
> 3. very mild pain, one or 2 bleeding spots occasionally.
> 4. We ask our patients not to apply minoxidil on the day of procedure
> 5. Standard length is 1.5mm for all patients.


 That is it for now unfortunately.

I'll try pose some more queries if people would like? Might be good to pose the queries as a "potential patient" to try get more information...

----------


## Jens1986

What more do you need to know? The study + the answers you got should be more than enough..

----------


## PrettyFly83

> What more do you need to know? The study + the answers you got should be more than enough..


 Hey Jens, I was hoping for a bit more detail:
1. I was more looking for whether the results continue to improve with continuous treatment not whether the condition improves after treatment.
2. Queried for Hellouser not fully answered but close enough
3. Answered
4. First part answered but no response as to* why* they do not minox after
5. Answered

----------


## Pentarou

Thanks for contacting them for the community, PrettyFly. The information is definitely still useful even if unfortunately brief.

----------


## walrus

> 1. There was further mild improvement after completion of treatment


 This didn't really answer the question, which was if the results continue to improve if the treatment is continued.

Edit: PrettyFly83, you already pointed this out.

----------


## chimera

So, the guys who made this study own a clinic where they offer this treatment.......?

Right........

**** this shit

----------


## hellouser

> So, the guys who made this study own a clinic where they offer this treatment.......?
> 
> Right........
> 
> **** this shit


 Whats wrong with them owning a clinic?

----------


## bigentries

> Whats wrong with them owning a clinic?


 Conflict of interest of course

Remember the tocotrienols hype? The study was also done by the main supplier of tocotrienols

----------


## the_dude78

> Conflict of interest of course
> 
> Remember the tocotrienols hype? The study was also done by the main supplier of tocotrienols


 Yes, this is worrying.

----------


## Arashi

> Yes, this is worrying.


 Agreed. Still going to try it though but it does make me worry.

----------


## walrus

There could indeed be a conflict of interest, but dermarollers are pretty cheap and easy for us to use ourselves. We don't need to jet out to their clinic to try it.

----------


## bigentries

I'm also trying it, what the heck, but now I remain more skeptical, my expectations are way lower now

----------


## hellouser

PrettyFly has clear results, and Ghost is reporting new hairs as well.

Gotta try it out first before we can write it off.

----------


## Arashi

> PrettyFly has clear results, and Ghost is reporting new hairs as well.
> 
> Gotta try it out first before we can write it off.


 Agreed. That's why I'm saying I'm still going to try  :Wink:  Waiting on my roller ...

----------


## the_dude78

> PrettyFly has clear results, and Ghost is reporting new hairs as well.
> 
> Gotta try it out first before we can write it off.


 Absolutely. I just got my roller today and will begin the adventure this evening.

----------


## Borealis

How are you guys cleaning your rollers? Just with TCP or something? I haven't cleaned mine before (done it 3 times) and I'm thinking that might be a factor in why it itches so much afterwards.

----------


## hellouser

Thing is, it really depends on the wounding. Cotsarelis basically proves the theory. Perhaps it depends on how MUCH wounding... i mean, maybe the mild erythema is slightly not enough?

For example, that burn scalp victim regrew his hair in his bald spot (temple). Article was back for 1986.

The evidence is there. If this study doesn't pan out, we really should try every angle possible to get some kind of results... or at the very least MAINTENANCE.

I'm gonna be rolling tonight for the second time. Im gonna be harsher than last time. No pain, no gain.

----------


## chimera

> PrettyFly has clear results, and Ghost is reporting new hairs as well.
> 
> Gotta try it out first before we can write it off.


 How do we know prettyfly results are not completely because of the minoxidil, when he took that photo, he was one month on the dermaroller, but three months already on minox.

However, yeah, you right, there's no way to tell if we don't try it first. As this treatment has a small time-frame we can easily prove if it works or not, and that's woth a shot.

----------


## the_dude78

> Thing is, it really depends on the wounding. Cotsarelis basically proves the theory. Perhaps it depends on how MUCH wounding... i mean, maybe the mild erythema is slightly not enough?
> 
> For example, that burn scalp victim regrew his hair in his bald spot (temple). Article was back for 1986.
> 
> The evidence is there. If this study doesn't pan out, we really should try every angle possible to get some kind of results... or at the very least MAINTENANCE.
> 
> I'm gonna be rolling tonight for the second time. Im gonna be harsher than last time. No pain, no gain.


 Just tried it on my face, not very pleasant. Looks like I got a sunburn and I drew a little bit of blood. Not looking forward to try it on my scalp. But yeah, No pain, no gain, I'm gonna go for the mild erythema though, and not too much blood.

----------


## DesperateOne

> So, the guys who made this study own a clinic where they offer this treatment.......?
> 
> Right........
> 
> **** this shit


 It's like you are just trying to find every possible excuse to dismiss this finding. There is real science behind this method, not just for hair loss but for the entire skin. I would suggest you take your negativity else where. I suppose you would of been happier had they said they conductd everything from a garage or basement, SMH.

----------


## Bocaj

> 2. Now I treat all my patients with finasteride + minoxidil+microneedling + platelet rich plasma.


 Well...so much for just dermarolling and maybe some minox  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

It can't hurt to try...but yeah..now that the clinic is mentioned- you gotta go there for the PRP....

----------


## the_dude78

double post, sorry

----------


## the_dude78

Found this, maybe it applies for hair loss too?

http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarollin...msg361/#msg361

----------


## bigentries

> It's like you are just trying to find every possible excuse to dismiss this finding. There is real science behind this method, not just for hair loss but for the entire skin. I would suggest you take your negativity else where. I suppose you would of been happier had they said they conductd everything from a garage or basement, SMH.


 People need to be cautious about everything concerning baldness treatments. It's not "negativity" it's just skepticism.

People tend to claim that we need to have an "open mind" but what they end up doing is not questioning enough. I invite you to see all hypes from last year and see where that attitude ends up 

They said they are using platelet rich plasma, that was the hype years ago, people tried it here and other forums, it lead nowhere, I'm still surprised doctors are still offering that thing

----------


## chimera

> Well...so much for just dermarolling and maybe some minox  
> 
> It can't hurt to try...but yeah..now that the clinic is mentioned- you gotta go there for the PRP....


 Well, at least in the study they mentioned that they got those results using only minox and dermaroller. What I mean is, they did not try tu sell us the PRP. (At least not through the study).

----------


## chimera

> It's like you are just trying to find every possible excuse to dismiss this finding. There is real science behind this method, not just for hair loss but for the entire skin. I would suggest you take your negativity else where. I suppose you would of been happier had they said they conductd everything from a garage or basement, SMH.


 I do want this to work! In fact, I was the one who bring this study to this forum in the first place (that doesn't matter, if it was't me, somebody else would have done it sooner or later) but I did it because I am really interested in this thing, as much as any of you.

But things like the study being done by a member (or members, we don't know yet) of a clinic where they give this treatment or that the only guy who has reported results was on minox since months before he took his photos just can't be overlooked.

Anyway, I do think you should continue. As you said, there's at least some science behind this. And, unlike tons of other "treatment" out there, this one will be easy, cheap and fast to know if it works or not. Despite my doubts, even I will probably try it.

----------


## PrettyFly83

> How do we know prettyfly results are not completely because of the minoxidil, when he took that photo, he was one month on the dermaroller, but three months already on minox.
> 
> However, yeah, you right, there's no way to tell if we don't try it first. As this treatment has a small time-frame we can easily prove if it works or not, and that's woth a shot.


 Correction, minox for 1 month then started rolling. Been rolling for 2.5months now and minox for 3.5. As much as ive researched,  minox does not give you a result in 2-3months, takes at leasr 4 for results to start showing. Keep optimistic guys, no point in being negative as whats to loose? 15 bucks on a derma roller that you can use for other treatments? Im keeping this going till end november and only then will make the call!

----------


## Bocaj

> Well, at least in the study they mentioned that they got those results using only minox and dermaroller. What I mean is, they did not try tu sell us the PRP. (At least not through the study).


 I'll post what I just said in another forum on that: 

No, I realize they supposedly weren't on fin/using prp(if you REALLY want to question things  :lol: ). But what many of us asked in the beginning is- how are they doing now? As I recall..we got a vague response on that, and now we learn what at least one researcher actually does, in a clinic. Sooooooooo....where are THOSE results from THAT combo? 

I'm glad there are quite a few trying this out...it's the only way we'll know for sure!

----------


## hellouser

> ^I've got a sneaking suspicion that the skin at the thinning areas has SOMETHING to do with hair loss. Everywhere that I've got thick skin, theres a LOT more hair, but in areas where my skin is thin, I've either lost my hair (temples) or am thinning (very top plus area around temples). I'm going to see if EMU oil and scalp massage can increase skin thickness and bloodflow.


 YES! Spencer even touched on this in his show:

http://youtu.be/jYLax0hB9dc




> As we lose our hair, the scalp actually gets thinner, but the longer you have hair loss, the thinner the scalp becomes. So by doing this type of abrasion to the scalp it actually increase collagen formation in the scalp and also increases fibroblast and in turn, at least in theory, it also increases hair growth.


 Keep rolling and DEEP wounding, skin has three layers and we need to wound quite a bit (but not so much as to rip of skin).

----------


## DesperateOne

> Correction, minox for 1 month then started rolling. Been rolling for 2.5months now and minox for 3.5. As much as ive researched,  minox does not give you a result in 2-3months, takes at leasr 4 for results to start showing. Keep optimistic guys, no point in being negative as whats to loose? 15 bucks on a derma roller that you can use for other treatments? Im keeping this going till end november and only then will make the call!


 You're right, to tell you the truth saying something like 4 months for minox to work is a stretch at best. Usually it takes even longer, sometimes even a year or so. What people don't realize is that just by being negative about something like this restructures their brain to think it won't work, and guess what... your body won't accept it the same way and it might not work at all for you.

$15 is absolutely nothing, and even if this don't work, I will be using it on my stretch marks and maybe my face. 

One thing that I am worried about is that it seems that everywhere else I look they say to use it daily. Those are for the skin conditions and not for the scalp, but then again, I don't see why it should be different. 

If you keep on using it every day, you will just see more inflammation and maybe faster results. Or is the whole point to try and recover from the wound within a week?

----------


## DesperateOne

Hellouser how is your progress going? are you still getting pretty good results from the RU and minox?

Are you recording the results with the derma roller?

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser how is your progress going? are you still getting pretty good results from the RU and minox?
> 
> Are you recording the results with the derma roller?


 RU I dropped in May. I'm getting on the CB gravytrain soon.

Dermarolling I just started and my last session I dont think I wounded enough, i didnt get any redness. Tonight I'm going to go ham.

----------


## the_dude78

> YES! Spencer even touched on this in his show:
> 
> http://youtu.be/jYLax0hB9dc
> 
> 
> 
> Keep rolling and DEEP wounding, skin has three layers and we need to wound quite a bit (but not so much as to rip of skin).


 How do you come to the conclusion that we have to roll deep? In the study they clearly say mild erythema. Just wondering.

----------


## DesperateOne

So I have found this youtube channel of doctors who talk a lot about derma rollers and how to clean them and all.

https://www.youtube.com/user/whitelo...ch?query=derma

----------


## hellouser

> How do you come to the conclusion that we have to roll deep? In the study they clearly say mild erythema. Just wondering.


 Gut feeling. Basically, if Follica could use LIGHT dermarolling for FGF-9, it'd already work. But they've been trying to create a device that does proper wounding. I have a feeling its more extensive than dermarolling.

----------


## Bocaj

> How do you come to the conclusion that we have to roll deep? In the study they clearly say mild erythema. Just wondering.


 I get that from a .5 vibrating dermaroller. I think I may just get a deeper one for this....

----------


## HARIRI

Can every member in this thread using scalp roller tell me how many times is he using it a week and for how long per each session? Lets start with Hellouser  :Big Grin:

----------


## hellouser

> Can every member in this thread using scalp roller tell me how many times is he using it a week and for how long per each session? Lets start with Hellouser


 I've only rolled once so far, I only got my roller a week ago.

I did it for about 10+ minutes, mainly took that long because I'm a bitch. It hurt a lot. I'd suggest giving at least several rolls across every area on your balding areas. I didnt press to hard either, today I'm going to be harsher on the scalp. Am hoping that this can fill in my temples even a little bit.

----------


## DesperateOne

I just got my two derma rollers today. Holly crap did that hurt, it seems that you first need to do it slowly and then somehow it's not so painful. I guess because of the trauma your brain releases some natural painkillers. I tried to use it on my face and well it's so too damn painful there, a .5 mm should be used on the face, but I will be using the 1.5mm on the head. 

After doing much research I think I will be trying my own way, I know the experiment said it did it one way, but that doesn't mean theirs is the best way to go. I will also be reporting after 4 months, there is no need to report every freaking week, I will just takes pics every week and put my results here.

----------


## hellouser

I just did my second session of dermarolling today... holy crap, its painful and STINGS a lot after. Much like you guys, I too had an odd sensation; watery eyes mostly. My entire scalp is quite red though, more bleeding than last time but not so much as to look like I just went through war (just a bunch of red dots). I pressed harder on the dermaroller this time making sure I was piercing/wounding skin. Fact is, 1.5mm is all you're going to penetrate with a 1.5mm dermaroller. You might as well press hard to make sure youre getting THAT exact amount. If I don't see results in terminal hairs coming in, I may opt for a 2mm dermaroller.

I was thinking of testing the dermaroller wounding method on a completely bald patch of skin in one of my temples but with the addition of a PGD2 blocker, perhaps cetirizine. I'm curious to see what kind of results, if any, that could provide. This of course would be supplemented with minoxidil and potentially CB and keep at only that area.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> YES! Spencer even touched on this in his show:
> 
> http://youtu.be/jYLax0hB9dc


 Spencer and I feel the same way at around 4:50-5:00. What he says is the exact way I feel about reading these forums. It truly is ridiculous.

Edit: from 4:50 to 7:15...Spencer speaks the same way I feel.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys sorry please tell me, is 1.5mm reaching the hair folicle to wound it?isnt like 2.5 mm more correct?

how many times a week?

and it works as standalone right?  in the past it was believed to increase absorb of topicals but with recent wounding science we learned that cells release "things" after wound tha grow the hair . right?

----------


## UK_

This is ridiculous, there is nothing for hair loss, we are all screwed.

----------


## bibz

Nope, YOU are screwed  :Smile:

----------


## chimera

> This is ridiculous, there is nothing for hair loss, we are all screwed.


 CB MAN, CB FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!...

... unless you're already a high norwood, in which case you would be right, you're screwed...

----------


## DesperateOne

> guys sorry please tell me, is 1.5mm reaching the hair folicle to wound it?isnt like 2.5 mm more correct?
> 
> how many times a week?
> 
> and it works as standalone right?  in the past it was believed to increase absorb of topicals but with recent wounding science we learned that cells release "things" after wound tha grow the hair . right?


 If you never used a derma roller then you don't know how much it hurts. It's so freaking painful at 1.5, 2.5 is just out of the question. 

I think that what we're trying to achieve neogenesis, new hairs with wounding.

----------


## hellouser

^^ With my 1.5mm roller, I went ham last night on the wounding, definitely more blood than last week. I could feel my scalp sting for the next 2-3 hours and even now, nearly 12 hours later, it still stings a little bit (very mild though).

God damn, I want my hair back.

----------


## oppenheimer82

began dermarolling 2,5 weeks ago and did it for the third time yesterday. bald spots are slowly filling in. slowly, but surely. every kid who starts to bald in his early twenties should do this at once.

----------


## hellouser

> began dermarolling 2,5 weeks ago and did it for the third time yesterday. bald spots are slowly filling in. slowly, but surely. every kid who starts to bald in his early twenties should do this at once.


 Theres been speculation that inflammation is the cause of hair loss. If this can reduce it and maintain, Finasteride could hopefully be rendered useless (FINALLY).

Next hurdle is to regenerate donor follicles or follicle neogenesis. If we can do that, we can easily get back a full head of hear at normal density within a reasonable amount of time.

Fvck Finasteride and Fvck the FDA.

----------


## walrus

> began dermarolling 2,5 weeks ago and did it for the third time yesterday. bald spots are slowly filling in. slowly, but surely. every kid who starts to bald in his early twenties should do this at once.


 Pictures?

----------


## Axel

> began dermarolling 2,5 weeks ago and did it for the third time yesterday. bald spots are slowly filling in. slowly, but surely. every kid who starts to bald in his early twenties should do this at once.


 How much time have you been with minox before you started rolling?

Also... pics?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Conpecia

Oppenheimer:

Age?
Age when you started balding?
NW level?
Regimen?
Length of time on current regimen?
Photos?

Answering these will help us in a major way. Congrats on your regrowth. Let's get as much info as we can on this in circulation.

----------


## Conpecia

(double post)

----------


## hellouser

We know thinning hair happens on thinning scalp. Has anyone thought about getting EMU oil and thickening up the scalp skin as well?

----------


## DesperateOne

> We know thinning hair happens on thinning scalp. Has anyone thought about getting EMU oil and thickening up the scalp skin as well?


 There might be something to the thickness of the scalp. When I used the derma roller in my affected area, it hurt like shit, but not so much on regar scalp.

Why exactly do you think emu oil would help thicken the skin? I have some laying around in my fridge.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

Is there a particular dermaroller that should be used for the head? And what pressure do you apply on the head?

This sounds interesting, i'd like to give it a try.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Is there a particular dermaroller that should be used for the head? And what pressure do you apply on the head?
> 
> This sounds interesting, i'd like to give it a try.


 I put a YouTube link to a channel all about derma rollers in the previous page. It seems that for hairloss we need to use a 1.5mm, you should not apply too much pressure, just enough so the needles go in. You will be able to feel how much pressure you need once it arrives.

I tried also using the derma roller on my stretch marks and face and I would say that it's best to use a 1mm in the face and 1.5 for the stretch marks because of how painful it is. All the places I rolled yesterday are still in trauma and j can feel it, but no pain no gain, so I must be gaining a lot  :Smile:

----------


## greatjob!

> We know thinning hair happens on thinning scalp. Has anyone thought about getting EMU oil and thickening up the scalp skin as well?


 If thinning of the skin has anything to do with baldness, it more than likely happens as a result of balding instead of being a cause of balding. Even if you could thicken the skin it is not going to cause regrowth.

----------


## hellouser

> If thinning of the skin has anything to do with baldness, it more than likely happens as a result of balding instead of being a cause of balding. Even if you could thicken the skin it is not going to cause regrowth.


 Probably true but there are so many variables in baldness. DHT, PGD2, PGE2, etc. Its not crazy to think that scalp thickness plays at least a partial role.

----------


## DesperateOne

> If thinning of the skin has anything to do with baldness, it more than likely happens as a result of balding instead of being a cause of balding. Even if you could thicken the skin it is not going to cause regrowth.


 Even if its an after effect of baldness, it really doesn't matter. Typically in the body when something happens and you improve the side effects, the overall desease improves. 

Take a common fever, your body heats up, yet if you lower your head temperature with a wet cloth you would indeed reverse some of the sickness.
IMO

----------


## greatjob!

> Take a common fever, your body heats up, yet if you lower your head temperature with a wet cloth you would indeed reverse some of the sickness.
> IMO


 Dude I don't want to be rude but this shows you have very little knowledge of biology. A wet cloth doesn't reverse some of the sickness or reduce a fever. Temperature is regulated by your hypothalamus and a fever is induced by various interleukin's and prostagladin's in the immune system as a result of pathogens. Regardless of what your mom told you, or how it makes you feel, a wet cloth or reducing your "head temperature" does nothing for a fever or infection, so your analogy is useless.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Sup fellas! Time to pluck my head. Getting rid of scalp med. Ordered promox 15percent lotion. I will post pics in 6 weeks. Hope you guys had a great week and keep going! Also I do not know how to post pics. Let me know how. I have a Windows phone  :Wink:

----------


## DesperateOne

> Dude I don't want to be rude but this shows you have very little knowledge of biology. A wet cloth doesn't reverse some of the sickness or reduce a fever. Temperature is regulated by your hypothalamus and a fever is induced by various interleukin's and prostagladin's in the immune system as a result of pathogens. Regardless of what your mom told you, or how it makes you feel, a wet cloth or reducing your "head temperature" does nothing for a fever or infection, so your analogy is useless.


 Umm buddy, you might want to go **** yourself. The doctor told me this and if your fever is really high, it is cooking your brain so putting a wet cloth on your head and removing clothes does reduce the temperature and the fever. My reference was not to cure mpb, but to reduce hair loss.

----------


## baldybald

guys, this is not going to work, it is the opposite it may be harmful for your body

----------


## chimera

> guys, this is not going to work, it is the opposite it may be harmful for your body


 It's fine, this is not going to hurt us. We are not the first ones using the dermaroller you know?, I has been used for ages to treat scars, stretch marks and things like that. Some people even dermaroll on a daily basis without any trouble. Also, we're using it only once a week, we'll be alright.

Yeah, it may not work, but first we have to be sure. I am not saying we should try everything out there, but potential treatments like this are worth a shoot. There's science behind it, and if it does not work, unlike many other treaments, this won't take much time, money or health to know about it.

----------


## bigentries

> guys, this is not going to work, it is the opposite it may be harmful for your body


 How could it be harmful? Besides an infection of course

If you don't see an improvement in 6-12 weeks, then stop. 6 to 12 session are not dangerous, micro wounding has been studied and used for a while

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Hey baldybald you stay bald and us others will make history. Now you go FO and leave us visionaries alone. 

Cheers
Ghost

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## GreyGhost1864

Baldybald do you work for Follica? Come on be honest? You will feel better just being open. Free yourself...Walmart is hiring. You can be a greeter! 
Good luck
Ghost

----------


## bigentries

> Hey baldybald you stay bald and us others will make history. Now you go FO and leave us visionaries alone. 
> 
> Cheers
> Ghost


 Now, that is a really bad attitude to take

I hate the naive optimism in this place. We will not  know if the study is legit or not for a while. 

Many people have claimed they were making history, and acted like visionaries before. See how everything turned out. 
It's disgusting to see people turn into fanboys for the latest fad, Aderans, Histogen, Indomethacin

If you think you are already playing in the "winning side" you start to lose critical thinking and people start to report things they are not really there

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Not a fan boy. I have seen many things come and go. I apologize ok. But I can tell you I have not seen this much elongated peach fuzz on my head from any other treatment. Its only been three weeks. This is real....I read an article last week of the pioneer of this treatment. He had all his hair but only used it on his face. He is 70 and looks better than me. I am 40. Is it safe give me a break
Ghost

----------


## DesperateOne

> Not a fan boy. I have seen many things come and go. I apologize ok. But I can tell you I have not seen this much elongated peach fuzz on my head from any other treatment. Its only been three weeks. This is real....I read an article last week of the pioneer of this treatment. He had all his hair but only used it on his face. He is 70 and looks better than me. I am 40. Is it safe give me a break
> Ghost


 Ghost please answer my questions from two pages before and also what is your technique when plucking your hair.

I want to turn my vellus hairs into darkies as well.
Thanks mate

----------


## GreyGhost1864

D.Cloprostenol. Iron dragon. Use only day 3.4.5 after plucking. I use Cappilogain light morning and scalp med night. Next at 445 am capillogain then gym at 630 am and 12 and evening promox. Fridays pluck 1.5 then .5....then do my face with .5. After apply vitd lotion and vitc
Ghost

----------


## bigentries

> Not a fan boy. I have seen many things come and go. I apologize ok. But I can tell you I have not seen this much elongated peach fuzz on my head from any other treatment. Its only been three weeks. This is real....I read an article last week of the pioneer of this treatment. He had all his hair but only used it on his face. He is 70 and looks better than me. I am 40. Is it safe give me a break
> Ghost


 The problem is that, many people have also claimed results in the past from basically every other alternative treatment we've heard about

Until we have enough evidence (the point of this thread!) it's better to keep our emotions controlled

Remember one big part of this approach is minoxidil, a proven treatment that also grows hair like crazy in many people.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

When I roll from my crown to the front is little red dots. Its easy keep the roller still press down hear the skin pop and keep the pressure and roll slow. You will know you are doing it right when it sounds like pulling Velcro apart. 
Ghost

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Minox never grew a hair on my head. I am not a rookie.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Another thing big entries. If you are 25 or under I was using 2% minox when you were sucking on your moms tit. It didn't work back then either. 
Wounding is the key. I think wounding would work regardless but with it now old solutions actually work....read about neogenisis(spelled wrong)
Ghost

----------


## Conpecia

ghost you're dealing with some young dudes who have been dumping god knows what on their heads and down their throats nonstop the past few years. yeah there was minox in the 80s but no one was trying shit like RU, BNP-32, Bim, CB, Cap, OC, KaR, Equol, ramatroban, i/c combo, etc, etc, etc, all to NO ****ing avail, time after time, study after ****ing study that "proves" this or that is the ****ing cure. with the internet and forums like this it makes it easier to spread info but we all end up ****ed and led on wild goose chases and snake oil scams, plus man we're all going bald YOUNG in an age where there are practically ZERO bald movie stars or actors, everything you ****ing do is on facebook and men are expected to be as good looking as women.

we're ****ing sick of shit not working man, that's all it is. i have hope for this wounding shit and i'm onboard fully, there's good science behind it, but us young dudes have learned the hard way and learned early not to get pumped up about anything until we see terminal hairs growing on our god damn heads.

----------


## DesperateOne

> ghost you're dealing with some young dudes who have been dumping god knows what on their heads and down their throats nonstop the past few years. yeah there was minox in the 80s but no one was trying shit like RU, BNP-32, Bim, CB, Cap, OC, KaR, Equol, ramatroban, i/c combo, etc, etc, etc, all to NO ****ing avail, time after time, study after ****ing study that "proves" this or that is the ****ing cure. with the internet and forums like this it makes it easier to spread info but we all end up ****ed and led on wild goose chases and snake oil scams, plus man we're all going bald YOUNG in an age where there are practically ZERO bald movie stars or actors, everything you ****ing do is on facebook and men are expected to be as good looking as women.
> 
> we're ****ing sick of shit not working man, that's all it is. i have hope for this wounding shit and i'm onboard fully, there's good science behind it, but us young dudes have learned the hard way and learned early not to get pumped up about anything until we see terminal hairs growing on our god damn heads.


 I agree with you man, this has to be the biggest ****ing bullshit in the history of civilization. We are here wasting our ****ing time, when those incompetent doctors can't come up with a legitimate cure, they had over 60 years, wow. Even the freaking nuclear fusion experiments have had more success than this shit. 

First it was lowering PGD2, raising PGE2, then that UCLA rat study with God knows what, and now it's this f9g9 bullshit. What we need to do is get some of those genius physicist out of their field, and pay them a shit load of money to finally solve this shit. I am so tired of this as well.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Big entries and Conpecia
Sorry guys lost my wife and mad. Forgive me for being a dick. Us old school guys need to be your rock. So I am here ok. I am sorry...I truly know what you guys are going thru. I wish I could say it gets better but I can say I had 5 glorious years with a 5 foot 10 ex model I was married to that didn't give a flip about my hair. I will load our wedding pictures. She loved me for me. She is gone now but wasn't about my hair. I know this sucks but this may or may not be the answer but I know in my life I will have a full head of hair and so will you. Get in the gym! Take care of yourself and when it comes.... .make your own history. 
Ghost

----------


## Conpecia

it's just i've become completely objective. i will try anything that is backed by science and is as cheap and harmless as dermarolling, but i'm not gonna get excited about anything at this point. been through it all with these experimental treatments. there are always studies. there are always a few pics showing results, and everything, literally every single one, fails. 

i'm not saying this doesn't seem good, it does. but i'm just gonna wait until i personally get cosmetic results before i start singing its praises.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

May I also add done needling....so refreshing

----------


## DesperateOne

> it's just i've become completely objective. i will try anything that is backed by science and is as cheap and harmless as dermarolling, but i'm not gonna get excited about anything at this point. been through it all with these experimental treatments. there are always studies. there are always a few pics showing results, and everything, literally every single one, fails. 
> 
> i'm not saying this doesn't seem good, it does. but i'm just gonna wait until i personally get cosmetic results before i start singing its praises.


 Have you experimented with Cetirize and Quercetin before?

----------


## Conpecia

neither, but i started the cet thread here and have heard decent things about it stopping loss.

----------


## DesperateOne

> D.Cloprostenol. Iron dragon. Use only day 3.4.5 after plucking. I use Cappilogain light morning and scalp med night. Next at 445 am capillogain then gym at 630 am and 12 and evening promox. Fridays pluck 1.5 then .5....then do my face with .5. After apply vitd lotion and vitc
> Ghost


 So you're getting the D-Cloprostenol from iron dragon website? How long does that last because it's very expensive like $100 for one bottle. Or is there somewhere else where you can buy this stuff, I found no where else when I searched online, it seems odd that only iron dragon sells it and claims that it's meant for hair loss. 

So when you say pluck, you mean to use the derma roller of 1.5mm? I thought you were actually getting some tweezers and plucking one by one.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

I like you desperate one. I am a Norwood 6 so using 3 days a week will last me a month if you are a 2 or 3. Last you at least 3 months. Plucking is southern humor. Dermarolling....so. Will change to 15% promos when it comes in. A year from now when my ex wife is done looking around. I will be a 6foot 3 inch beast at 215 pounds at 10 percent body fat and a solid Norwood 3.
I ****ing guarantee it. I will have my moment and so will you!

----------


## DesperateOne

> I like you desperate one. I am a Norwood 6 so using 3 days a week will last me a month if you are a 2 or 3. Last you at least 3 months. Plucking is southern humor. Dermarolling....so. Will change to 15% promos when it comes in. A year from now when my ex wife is done looking around. I will be a 6foot 3 inch beast at 215 pounds at 10 percent body fat and a solid Norwood 3.
> I ****ing guarantee it. I will have my moment and so will you!


 15% promos when it comes in?

So you are saying that Iron dragon is your site, FFS dude.

----------


## Conpecia

> 15% promos when it comes in?
> 
> So you are saying that Iron dragon is your site, FFS dude.


 he meant to say promox not promos

----------


## doinmyheadin

Thats funny I can post in this section of the forum but when I go to post in the "Hair Transplant Results By IAHRS Recommended Surgeons" it says something about waiting for moderators to approve post before it shows up.

Very interesting............

----------


## DesperateOne

> Thats funny I can post in this section of the forum but when I go to post in the "Hair Transplant Results By IAHRS Recommended Surgeons" it says something about waiting for moderators to approve post before it shows up.
> 
> Very interesting............


 Well where do you think the money comes from, the surgeons. If you say anything stupid, it will hurt the money influx. Makes sense to me at least.

----------


## hellouser

> How could it be harmful? Besides an infection of course
> 
> If you don't see an improvement in 6-12 weeks, then stop. 6 to 12 session are not dangerous, micro wounding has been studied and used for a while


 Unless your sharing your dermaroller, you can't infect yourself.

----------


## hellouser

Watch this video on a doctor performing a dermarolling session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFNe2_9YJXs

Interesting how this doctor 'butchers' the girls face, theres quite a lot of blood. But notice that he says 'mild erythema'. If thats mild, then thats basically the amount of wounding we need to do. Like I said guys, my gut feeling tells me we need to be aggressive. Small amounts of blood here and there imo probably means not enough of the job is being done.

How hilarious would it be if we figured out that significant dermarolling like this with Minoxidil was the answer and we, on the forums, basically put Follica out of business before they could even finish a Phase II study? LOL! I wonder if anyone from the Follica team is reading this. I hope theyre shitting bricks.. Sink or swim, bitches. We want a cure now.

----------


## luca10

I do it until I leave a little blood, watching the results I have to wait two months to start seeing something?

ps: sorry if you do not understand much'm using the translator.

----------


## SOTF

Oh, right. Where is that "Staythick" guy claiming bleeding was just pressing way, way too hard. 

Yeah, exactly. To justify the use of a 1.5mm roller you need to press firmly to get more than .75mm penetration. This means BLOOD and PAIN. Deal with it or don't do it.

----------


## clandestine

> I do it until I leave a little blood, watching the results I have to wait two months to start seeing something?
> 
> ps: sorry if you do not understand much'm using the translator.


 You'll probably need to wait a couple months, yes. Results do not happen immediately.

----------


## Conpecia

i've been thinking about the clinic that provided the study we're going off. surely they would have anticipated the notion that all of us would use their method without them being able to profit from it, right? i think that puts my mind at ease regarding the authenticity and purpose of the study...

----------


## Conpecia

> How hilarious would it be if we figured out that significant dermarolling like this with Minoxidil was the answer and we, on the forums, basically put Follica out of business before they could even finish a Phase II study? LOL! I wonder if anyone from the Follica team is reading this. I hope theyre shitting bricks.. Sink or swim, bitches. We want a cure now.


 what have i been saying for the past 6 months?! significant treatments WILL come from the *FORUMS*. i have no clue why those histogen and aderans threads ever get updated beyond official updates put out by those companies themselves. collectively we know as much as they do about mpb and we have ZERO legal hurdles or FDA trials. are we batshit crazy to pop every pill and bathe in every topical? yes! but we don't have years to sit around and wait for follica to snail along to a cure.

that being said, i still think we should maintain a healthy dose of skepticism. we have science behind this, it's cheap, it's safe, and we're getting good reports on results from a couple guys, but remember: we've been in this exact position before a million times. let's just wait and see.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Guys sorry about my remarks. Hell man your question about thinning of the skin comes from the lack of collagen. More we roll the more collagen is produced hence thickening of the scalp skin. Just my thoughts
Ghost

----------


## gainspotter

Hi all,

I have been lurking this site for a while now, and after coming across this thread I had to join and hop on the derma rolling wagon.
I am a nw 2 at the moment, looking to fill in my temples and crown.
My method will be 1.5 d.r, minox once a day, and nizoral/eclipta alba oil every 3 days. 
I remember my bro had bad acne on his forehead in his teens and the dermaroller worked wonders, furthermore he has a perfect hairline eventhough he has a solar panel showing at the back.
Probably wishful thinking but maybe the derma roller saved his hairline as he was very thorough in the areas he treated. Who knows.
I still remain skeptical but can't help feeling rather hopeful as well.
Ill take updated photos weekly and report my progress.
Nice to be part of a forum that cares.

----------


## Conpecia

> Hi all,
> 
> I have been lurking this site for a while now, and after coming across this thread I had to join and hop on the derma rolling wagon.
> I am a nw 2 at the moment, looking to fill in my temples and crown.
> My method will be 1.5 d.r, minox once a day, and nizoral/eclipta alba oil every 3 days. 
> I remember my bro had bad acne on his forehead in his teens and the dermaroller worked wonders, furthermore he has a perfect hairline eventhough he has a solar panel showing at the back.
> Probably wishful thinking but maybe the derma roller saved his hairline as he was very thorough in the areas he treated. Who knows.
> I still remain skeptical but can't help feeling rather hopeful as well.
> Ill take updated photos weekly and report my progress.
> Nice to be part of a forum that cares.


 
welcome gain, good luck and please keep us updated. interesting about your bro keep his hairline but losing at the crown. who knows? i guess we'll all find out soon enough if this is legit.

----------


## the_dude78

> Guys sorry about my remarks. Hell man your question about thinning of the skin comes from the lack of collagen. More we roll the more collagen is produced hence thickening of the scalp skin. Just my thoughts
> Ghost


 GreyGhost, I appreciate your inputs! Any thoughts on whether Nizoral, with its anti-inflammatory abilities, could hinder the process?

----------


## Conpecia

> GreyGhost, I appreciate your inputs! Any thoughts on whether Nizoral, with its anti-inflammatory abilities, could hinder the process?


 i'm wondering this too about pgd2 blockers.

i think i'm gonna start doing i/c combo once a week, after i've fully healed from one rolling session but a few days before the next session.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Guys I have no clue. Biz never did anything for me. Minox and fin never did. Only thing that ever worked for me was zix. It regrew my crown but I quit when I got married. Turned our sheets yellow. Women **** them! Now what am I! Just a bald ****
Ghost

----------


## DesperateOne

> Guys I have no clue. Biz never did anything for me. Minox and fin never did. Only thing that ever worked for me was zix. It regrew my crown but I quit when I got married. Turned our sheets yellow. Women **** them! Now what am I! Just a bald ****
> Ghost


 When you say zix, do you mean Lecithin? Because it has been posted that it works wonders but it turn everything yellow, I have used it for two days and sure enough, all my sheets are bright yellow, including my scalp which not even with a shower did it remove all. That's how things usually go in the nutrition field, the most beneficial food are very saturated with color. These include blueberries, beets, pomegranates and a few others to name a few. 

I will just be using Lecithin and Cyrtec for 5 months and see if that helps, I will only be using the derma roller to make them absorb better. I tried it yesterday and sure enough, the Lecithin absorbed way better and I felt a bit of tingling on my scalp.

I would try your method Ghost, but I am broke as hell, damn I hate having no money and those things you mention cost a shit load of money.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

I forgot you Gus are young. Just go to hlh in search type in Zix and Zix2. Going to bed cheers
Ghost

----------


## DesperateOne

> I forgot you Gus are young. Just go to hlh in search type in Zix and Zix2. Going to bed cheers
> Ghost


 Ghost, be a pal and send your fellow norwood some of your stuff as a gift  :Big Grin:

----------


## bigentries

> Unless your sharing your dermaroller, you can't infect yourself.


 Of course you can infect yourself. There is a reason why they used betadine in the study. Even when you have an sterilized equipment, the skin and room where you are needling need to be clean

Now add that most of us will be using the same equipment several times, with varying degrees of sterilization, and an infection turns into a possibility. There is a reason why needles (even subcutaneous) need to be used only once

----------


## john2399

Are you guys really drawing blood from this shit? The pain is too much holy shit....those fuken needles...this stupid fukenn disease.

----------


## Axel

Guys look at this woman how she's making the rollin procedure in a man's face... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZm_eN9LCE

Have you seen? 1.5mm roller... and loads of blood! NO PAIN NO GAIN!

It seems she has a lot of practice! She could earn a lot if she'd start to do it on our scalps...  :Big Grin:

----------


## Thinning87

What's the benefit of doing it to your face

----------


## chimera

> What's the benefit of doing it to your face


 A treatment for acne scars, premature wrinkles and solar scars.

----------


## hellouser

It needs to be pointed out that the study's *mild* erythema should not be considered as the same wounding which is what Dr. Cotsarelis' theory is based on. It'd be very presumptuous to say this study's dermarolling 'wounding' is the same as Follica's approach. We don't even know if it requires even more vigorous dermarolling and puncturing of the skin. Let's just go by what the study did, and see the results and THEN experiment.

Unless, if anyone is brave enough to go further than the study and wound once a week but using a 2.00mm or higher dermaroller. The results should be interesting if in fact we are releasing WNT proteins from this method.

I'm still curious as to what this could be like if we go our hands on FGF-9 and injected ourself with it using a diabetic needle AFTER the wounding.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Guys look at this woman how she's making the rollin procedure in a man's face... 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZm_eN9LCE
> 
> Have you seen? 1.5mm roller... and loads of blood! NO PAIN NO GAIN!
> 
> It seems she has a lot of practice! She could earn a lot if she'd start to do it on our scalps...


 I tried it on my face with a 1.5mm and it's impossible. It hurts so ****ign much, that guy in the video is taking it like a man. It is kinda retarded because all the studies to induce collagen say that you only need a .5mm a 1mm at most. 

That looks painful as hell, anyways, I tried it on my stretch marks the other day with a 1.5mm and I have been sore ever since. I did notice that the color got better, so I guess the pain was worth it.

----------


## HARIRI

> I tried it on my face with a 1.5mm and it's impossible. It hurts so ****ign much, that guy in the video is taking it like a man. It is kinda retarded because all the studies to induce collagen say that you only need a .5mm a 1mm at most. 
> 
> That looks painful as hell, anyways, I tried it on my stretch marks the other day with a 1.5mm and I have been sore ever since. I did notice that the color got better, so I guess the pain was worth it.


 There is NO F***ING way that I will dare to use it on my face, screw wrinkles. Id rather inject Botox than that. I can tolerate the pain with my thick scalp but never with my fine facial skin. Women can do the impossible to reach high beauty levels. You cant believe how many invasive plastic surgeries Korean girls do these days even if takes forever  :EEK!:  :EEK!:  :EEK!:

----------


## rdawg

> I'm still curious as to what this could be like if we go our hands on FGF-9 and injected ourself with it using a diabetic needle AFTER the wounding.


 We really need to know how safe that is. You dont want to inject something and then find out it can cause side effects that could get extreme.

----------


## HARIRI

> We really need to know how safe that is. You dont want to inject something and then find out it can cause side effects that could get extreme.


 I would never apply any topical if its NOT FDA approved because if anything goes wrong with me, nobody would ever care. Cant really play with chemicals, when RU or CB become official and sold at local pharmacies that's the time I would get them. That is what Spencer Kobren keeps saying in every Bald Truth show. Just a thought to share.  :Confused:

----------


## baldybald

When u make holes on your head and apply minox means it will go in to your blood, and that is not safe, trust me this is useless

----------


## walrus

> trust me this is useless


 Is that your opinion or do you have any evidence?

----------


## chimera

> When u make holes on your head and apply minox means it will go in to your blood, and that is not safe, trust me this is useless


 What do you think about the study? I do have my doubts...

----------


## Tracy C

> This is an interesting video about Microneedles and Minoxidil on You Tube:-
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc


 The person in this video clearly does not have MPB.

One important question that comes to mind is how does a person with long hair use a dermaroller without getting her hair tangled up in the dermaroller?

----------


## Borealis

Does rolling every 6 days instead of 7 make a difference?

----------


## hellouser

> The person in this video clearly does not have MPB.
> 
> One important question that comes to mind is how does a person with long hair use a dermaroller without getting her hair tangled up in the dermaroller?


 He was a Norwood 4 before.

----------


## hellouser

> Does rolling every 6 days instead of 7 make a difference?


 Probably not,  everyone's anatomy is different though,  some will wound and heal faster than others. I'm dermarolling every 6 day myself.

----------


## Pentarou

> What do you think about the study? I do have my doubts...


 I'd be far less... Sceptical... if there were other studies with broadly the same or similar results, TBH.

I think we as a community need to put together beginners' guide to DIY derma rolling, incidentally. One as conservative and unrisky as possible.

----------


## john2399

The person in that video def has toppic in.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Guys quit beating a dead horse. In 12 weeks we will all know if this is a good thing. Cost me 20 bucks and some pain. I can feel new stubble in the crown. I think in a couple of weeks my pics will show change. Just do it! 
Ghost

----------


## Borealis

For those who remember me moaning about incredible itching afterwards, I mentioned I thought it may be because I wasn't properly cleaning my dermaroller. Well I cleaned it with antiseptic earlier today and after using it the itching is nowhere near as bad.

----------


## greatjob!

> When u make holes on your head and apply minox means it will go in to your blood, and that is not safe, trust me this is useless


 Can everyone please read the study and/or this entire thread before making misinformed comments like this one. Myself and other posters have repeated this a million times already, read the study!!

*This in not about absorption it's about wounding, activating growth pathways, and hopefully reactivating dormant stem cells. I repeat this is not about minoxidil absorption, that is why you don't use minox on the day you microneddle!!!!!!!* 

For f*ck sake this forum is like screaming at a wall, a very very retarded wall.

----------


## hellouser

> Can everyone please read the study and/or this entire thread before making misinformed comments like this one. Myself and other posters have repeated this a million times already, read the study!!
> 
> *This in not about absorption it's about wounding, activating growth pathways, and hopefully reactivating dormant stem cells. I repeat this is not about minoxidil absorption, that is why you don't use minox on the day you microneddle!!!!!!!* 
> 
> For f*ck sake this forum is like screaming at a wall, a very very retarded wall.


 Ignore him, he works for Merck.

----------


## baldybald

> Ignore him, he works for Merck.


 oh yeah i work for them, you did not know that!! good luck with that dermaroller thing. i really hope will work, but no, trust me. do not listen to me and keep rolling bro, but when you believe me after few months  come back and say hey baldybald you are right :Wink:

----------


## baldybald

and am out from this topic

----------


## ChrisM

I use the derma roller at least 3 times  a week. From my experience where my results with Fin and Dutasteride the Minoxidil must be applied right after the rolling is done so that the Minoxidil can work into the deteriorated roots of the scalp to work underneath and have greater access to boost hair regrowth. Waiting for long period to then use the Minoxidil and the micro incisions heal back up and the treatment becomes just as effective or ineffective as before the incisions. Do it too deep or with too many repetitions and you have tissue scarring on the scalp that makes the follicle shaft less retrievable to make any positive changes.

----------


## hellouser

> and am out from this topic


 Goodbye.

----------


## greatjob!

> I use the derma roller at least 3 times  a week. From my experience where my results with Fin and Dutasteride the Minoxidil must be applied right after the rolling is done so that the Minoxidil can work into the deteriorated roots of the scalp to work underneath and have greater access to boost hair regrowth. Waiting for long period to then use the Minoxidil and the micro incisions heal back up and the treatment becomes just as effective or ineffective as before the incisions. Do it too deep or with too many repetitions and you have tissue scarring on the scalp that makes the follicle shaft less retrievable to make any positive changes.


 *OMG!!*

Go up and read my post #420, and then go and read the study!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not about minox absorption and you are more than likely using the derma roller too frequently

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Hellouser he works for follica. Lol....not Merck. Do not let the weak and jaded ruin this for use. Keep going men! What we do in life echoes in eternity! 
Ghost

----------


## rdawg

> *OMG!!*
> 
> Go up and read my post #420, and then go and read the study!!!!!!!!!!!
> This is not about minox absorption and you are more than likely using the derma roller too frequently


 This is what I read as well.

we aren't supposed to apply min right after dermarolling, min does not need any more helping getting through the skin. Small chance you could do more harm then good.

----------


## ChrisM

> This is what I read as well.
> 
> we aren't supposed to apply min right after dermarolling, min does not need any more helping getting through the skin. Small chance you could do more harm then good.


  Actually no I will be posting pictures soon.. so no damage has been done that I can detect.. there is significant hair regrowth is in all the balding areas and I am a NW5  gravitating towards an NW6 that I have been using the   derma roller although these hairs are graying.  Secondly I am not pressing down on the roller so hard as to draw blood that's number one. And number two I  might roll on the affected areas maybe 7 to 8 times in a cross hatch formation. I followed my initial instructions on how to use the derma roller before this trial or this post even came  on this board from here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc and this guy  has been helping people with his youtube videos for a long time and he reviews pretty much every product out there in terms of its effectiveness that he has used to combat his own MPB and restore his hairline.

----------


## hellouser

> Actually no I will be posting pictures soon.. so no damage has been done that I can detect.. there is significant hair regrowth is in all the balding areas and I am a NW5  gravitating towards an NW6 that I have been using the   derma roller although these hairs are graying.  Secondly I am not pressing down on the roller so hard as to draw blood that's number one. And number two I  might roll on the affected areas maybe 7 to 8 times in a cross hatch formation. I followed my initial instructions on how to use the derma roller before this trial or this post even came  on this board from here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc and this guy  has been helping people with his youtube videos for a long time and he reviews pretty much every product out there in terms of its effectiveness that he has used to combat his own MPB and restore his hairline.


 The video you linked has been posted twice already in this thread and debunked as it doesnt follow the study. Even they guy himself in the video says there may be a bit of blood.

Basically, both you and him are doing it wrong.

----------


## the_dude78

About cleaning the scalp... I wash my hair and scalp thoroughly and then use a dropper to apply chlorhexidine to the scalp. I have no bald spots, just thinning which makes it difficult to reach the scalp. Do you guys think washing and using chlorhexidine is enough?

----------


## csoul

> About cleaning the scalp... I wash my hair and scalp thoroughly and then use a dropper to apply chlorhexidine to the scalp. I have no bald spots, just thinning which makes it difficult to reach the scalp. Do you guys think washing and using chlorhexidine is enough?


 The study show that you need to clean the scalp with Betadine and Saline solution. I am doing that. Betadine and Saline solution is cheap and easy to apply. That way you prevent any possible infection or follicle inflammation.

----------


## johnnynohair

Ow! God****ingdamnit.

Hurts, doesn't it.

----------


## the_dude78

> The study show that you need to clean the scalp with Betadine and Saline solution. I am doing that. Betadine and Saline solution is cheap and easy to apply. That way you prevent any possible infection or follicle inflammation.


 
Yeah I saw that, but I have chlorhixidine and was wondering if that was enough. I will use betadine saline solution next time, just to be safe.

----------


## Brock Landers

Ok....I'm trying this.

What's the general consensus. I see that most people are using 192 needles. 

Should I buy Titanium or stainless steel? Does it matter?  Can Pretty Fly ask the researchers what is the exact composition of the dermaroller they used?

Thanks!

----------


## ChrisM

> The video you linked has been posted twice already in this thread and debunked as it doesnt follow the study. Even they guy himself in the video says there may be a bit of blood.
> 
> Basically, both you and him are doing it wrong.


  How does that mean I am doing it wrong because a video was posted twice before ?  The dude has his hair back to an NW1 . This is a study and it is not conclusive by any means...secondly I am getting results with Dut, Fin and the dermaroller more than under more than an entire year on Finasteride, Nizoral and Minoxidil which did both jack and shit so I really don't know what you are talking about. Why am I wasting my time talking you about it ?  If it works for me I won't have to be on this site much longer anyway and I will leave you to your can't or you are doing this wrong or the negativity you espouse.

----------


## hellouser

> How does that mean I am doing it wrong because a video was posted twice before ?  The dude has his hair back to an NW1 . This is a study and it is not conclusive by any means...secondly I am getting results with Dut, Fin and the dermaroller more than under more than an entire year on Finasteride, Nizoral and Minoxidil which did both jack and shit so I really don't know what you are talking about. Why am I wasting my time talking you about it ?  If it works for me I won't have to be on this site much longer anyway and I will leave you to your can't or you are doing this wrong or the negativity you espouse.


 Because youre under the impression this is about just absorption, rather than wounding. Greatjob! corrected you on it as well.

----------


## Conpecia

hell: if he's getting results then it's working somehow, regardless of the theory. remember, none of us knows whether using minox more often is actually more beneficial or less beneficial than refraining on the dermarolling day. technically, chris is not following the study. but it's just as possible that he is outdoing the study.

keep in mind that the dude who has posted pics in this thread (stayfly) was applying minox directly after dermarolling. we just need time to figure out the best method.

----------


## chimera

> How does that mean I am doing it wrong because a video was posted twice before ?  The dude has his hair back to an NW1 . This is a study and it is not conclusive by any means...secondly I am getting results with Dut, Fin and the dermaroller more than under more than an entire year on Finasteride, Nizoral and Minoxidil which did both jack and shit so I really don't know what you are talking about. Why am I wasting my time talking you about it ?  If it works for me I won't have to be on this site much longer anyway and I will leave you to your can't or you are doing this wrong or the negativity you espouse.


 ChrisM, could you be a little more specific about your treatment?, what did you used?, how long did you used it?, what are you doing now? and since when?

----------


## Tracy C

> He was a Norwood 4 before.


 No way.  That guy was never a Norwood IV.  He has no signs of ever having any degree of MPB at all.






> I'd be far less... Sceptical... if there were other studies with broadly the same or similar results, TBH.


 This is far from a good study.  It was far too short to make any meaningful conclusions.  But the idea is interesting to me.  I would try it myself if I were not worried about getting my hair tangled up in the roller.  I would do it once a week though.  Probably on Sunday nights.

----------


## Conpecia

> No way.  That guy was never a Norwood IV.  He has no signs of ever having any degree of MPB at all.


 http://www.hairlossfromsteroids.com

he most certainly was losing his hair.

----------


## Tracy C

> he most certainly was suffering from mpb.


 Hair loss induced by drug use is not MPB.

----------


## Tracy C

You changed your post the same time I responded to what you originally said.

The point is that you cannot use a person who never had MPB as a useable example when talking about a possible treatment for MPB.

----------


## chimera

> No way.  That guy was never a Norwood IV.  He has no signs of ever having any degree of MPB at all.


 He had a transplant already.




> This is far from a good study.  It was far too short to make any meaningful conclusions.


 Well, if the study is a lie, then we're ****ed. But if it's true, what more conclusive can you get?, almost nobody in the minoxidil group got results, while almost everybody got results in the minoxidil+dermarolling group. the results of those who got in the minox group were minimal at best, while the results in the minox+dermaroller were very, very substantial. I think we have a very clear conclusion here (as I said, if the study is real).





> I would do it once a week though.


 Well, that's what the study says, dermaroller just once a week.

----------


## Conpecia

Tracy, he suffered from male pattern baldness. Look at his "donor area" and the sides. No hairloss. That's male *pattern* baldness. I anticipated that you would make comment 442 and changed it, but in retrospect there was no point. What you mean to say is his hairloss was not genetic but resulted from steroid use. I doubt it.

----------


## chimera

> Hair loss induced by drug use is not MPB.


 You are wrong. steroids (testosterone) in those without male pattern baldness does not cause hair loss (well yeah, it can cause some hair loss, but it's pretty minimal). Steroids will take you hair only if you have a MPB predisposition.

----------


## Conpecia

could it be that this dude was wounding and attributed his results to the increased lipogaine absorption? i'd love to think that...

i think my new stack is going to be:

lipogaine 2x per day, 6x per week
dermarolling 1x per week
regenepure dr 2x per week

**** i/c combo, i'm through with it.

----------


## LevonHelms

> http://www.hairlossfromsteroids.com
> 
> he most certainly was losing his hair.


 Hey, did anyone else notice his tattoo was in a different spot in all his pics?  In his before and after shots it's on his right pec, in the bottom pic it's on his left pec. What the hell is up with that?

----------


## Chromeo

> Hey, did anyone else notice his tattoo was in a different spot in all his pics?  In his before and after shots it's on his right pec, in the bottom pic it's on his left pec. What the hell is up with that?


 I'm guessing he took that bottom pic with a webcam. Those things quite often mirror the image around. The others are digicam pics, where the tat is displayed on the correct side.

----------


## TheSwingingGate

Are you guys looking at the series of 3 pics of fuller hair on that site?

----------


## goingquick

This seems like its worth giving a shot, given that it's cheap and only once a week.  I've been on fin and minox for about 9 months now, and while I got good initial results there hasn't been any visible improvement in my hair for quite some time, so hopefully this will get things moving again.

----------


## Brock Landers

Which dermaroller to buy, stainless steel or titanium?  Does it make a difference?   Can someone please help here!

----------


## john2399

> Which dermaroller to buy, stainless steel or titanium?  Does it make a difference?   Can someone please help here!


 http://www.amazon.com/Microneedle-Sy...ds=dermaroller

This is the one i bought..they say stainless steal is better.

----------


## HARIRI

> could it be that this dude was wounding and attributed his results to the increased lipogaine absorption? i'd love to think that...
> 
> i think my new stack is going to be:
> 
> lipogaine 2x per day, 6x per week
> dermarolling 1x per week
> regenepure dr 2x per week
> 
> **** i/c combo, i'm through with it.


 I dont only love your name but also love your new treatment plan. Im almost going to do the same:-

My Hair Treatments: 

1- Alpecin Double Effect Shampoo (Caffeine + Salicylic Acid) (Daily)

2- Regaine topical solution (Minoxidil 5&#37 :Wink:  (Once a day)

3- Nanogen Titanium Scalp roller (Once a week) - NEW

4- Life Extension Super Saw Palmetto capsules (Saw Palmetto standardized extract 85% + Beta Sitosterol)  (Once a day)

----------


## Tracy C

> He had a transplant already.


 Very questionable.






> He had a transplant already.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if the study is a lie, then...


 I did not say the study was a lie.  I said it was not a good study.  It was far too short to draw any meaning conclusions.  However, the idea is still very interesting.






> ..what more conclusive can you get?, almost nobody in the minoxidil group got results, while almost everybody got results in the minoxidil+dermarolling group.


 The study was not long enough for that conclusion to have any real meaning.  It needed to be a minimum of six months - but more preferably a year.

----------


## Tracy C

> What you mean to say is his hairloss was not genetic but resulted from steroid use. I doubt it.


 That is exactly what he said, not me.  He said it was from steriod use.  Not me.  Hair loss from steriod use is not MPB.  It is drug induced hair loss, which can resolve on it's own simply by discontinuing the drug use.  Using him as an example is a very poor choice.

----------


## Artista

Hi *Tracy*, How have you been?  I haven't 'seen' you in a while, especially during  the Live show.

----------


## simba

> That is exactly what he said, not me.  He said it was from steriod use.  Not me.  Hair loss from steriod use is not MPB.  It is drug induced hair loss, which can resolve on it's own simply by discontinuing the drug use.  Using him as an example is a very poor choice.


 Hair loss from steroid use only happens if the man in question was going to go bald anyway. Steroids lead to more Test which leads to DHT which leads to hairloss, his experience is relevant to us.

----------


## StayThick

> Hair loss from steroid use only happens if the man in question was going to go bald anyway. Steroids lead to more Test which leads to DHT which leads to hairloss, his experience is relevant to us.


 This is correct. Losing hair from steroids is really a situation where a guy just expedites the MPB process, as he would have still lost hair in the future.

The dude in question still has the MPB gene, but chose to expedite the balding process by juicing.

----------


## bigentries

Ok, I'm in

First week only minox and this sunday will start using the dermaroller

Already took baseline pics and will continue to document weekly

----------


## Conpecia

> I dont only love your name but also love your new treatment plan. Im almost going to do the same:-
> 
> My Hair Treatments: 
> 
> 1- Alpecin Double Effect Shampoo (Caffeine + Salicylic Acid) (Daily)
> 
> 2- Regaine topical solution (Minoxidil 5%) (Once a day)
> 
> 3- Nanogen Titanium Scalp roller (Once a week) - NEW
> ...


 
yep looks good man. my only worry is that we won't be blocking enough dht. if we can find a dht blocker without sides we'll be set.

----------


## hellouser

> yep looks good man. my only worry is that we won't be blocking enough dht. *if we can find a dht blocker without sides we'll be set.*


 CB!!

Man, if the dermarolling trial is legit and CB proves to be at least half as good as it is on paper, imagine the results when combined!

----------


## Conpecia

> Hair loss from steriod use is not MPB.


 1. Hair loss in pattern form is by definition male pattern baldness. His hair loss was in pattern form. Therefore he has male pattern baldness. That argument ends right there.

2. Hair loss is merely accelerated by steroids. If he didn't have male pattern baldness to begin with he wouldn't have lost his hair simply because he added steroids. It's not like every guy who takes steroids loses his hair. Look at women who take steroids. Look at men who take steroids who are not susceptible to male pattern baldness. If I take steroids my existing disposition for male pattern baldness is accelerated because of increased testosterone (dht). 

3. Regardless of any of this, he is still a good "choice" because dermarolling and minoxidil have apparently given him superior results to anything else. His words. Also, it's not like this is the one guy who is having results. We have the study. We have a few guys on here who are claiming results. We have a very, very convincing set of photographs. So this is sort of a lateral means of support to begin with and not worth debating any longer. 

Let's get back on topic...

----------


## Conpecia

> CB!!
> 
> Man, if the dermarolling trial is legit and CB proves to be at least half as good as it is on paper, imagine the results when combined!


 I agree man. But unfortunately we don't yet have the right vehicle for CB (as far as I know), and it's still not really proven by all of us in the forums. I figure it'll be around by next year, but I mean I need something literally RIGHT NOW. I can't have another month like I did in July. I'm losing ground fast.

----------


## hellouser

> I agree man. But unfortunately we don't yet have the right vehicle for CB (as far as I know), and it's still not really proven by all of us in the forums. I figure it'll be around by next year, but I mean I need something literally RIGHT NOW. I can't have another month like I did in July. I'm losing ground fast.


 Did you try taking Fin once a week at 1mg?

----------


## StayThick

> I agree man. But unfortunately we don't yet have the right vehicle for CB (as far as I know), and it's still not really proven by all of us in the forums. I figure it'll be around by next year, but I mean I need something literally RIGHT NOW. I can't have another month like I did in July. I'm losing ground fast.


 I'm currently in the same exact boat. All this hypothetical boobla can't help me right now. That's where my frustration stems from. The "potential" of CB won't help me unfortunately at the moment. My hair won't come back based on hope.

----------


## Tracy C

> Hi *Tracy*, How have you been?  I haven't 'seen' you in a while, especially during  the Live show.


 I got a new job and that along with band practice is keeping me from making the show.  Joe's negativity was really getting to me anyways.  I may still participate from time to time.

I tend to stay out of the men's section of this forum because stupid is contagious.  Some of these guys need more help than anyone gave give them.

----------


## sosa56

> The study show that you need to clean the scalp with Betadine and Saline solution. I am doing that. Betadine and Saline solution is cheap and easy to apply. That way you prevent any possible infection or follicle inflammation.


 Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling?

----------


## Conpecia

> Did you try taking Fin once a week at 1mg?


 Yep. Same sides.

----------


## hellouser

> Yep. Same sides.


 Damn :/

----------


## Conpecia

> Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling?


 I'd like some info on this as well.

----------


## hellouser

Hopefully, once this dermaroller community trial comes to a close we'll all get positive results. After that, I'll make a 'Complete Dermaroller Guide' thread much like my RU58841 guide.

God damn it I want this to work. If it does, it should give other startups incentive to try harder to bring forth a hair loss treatment, one thats vastly superior to anything else... none of this 'baby steps' fvcking bullshit.

----------


## Conpecia

has anybody noticed anything yet? it's been a couple weeks and fly had good results after 2 months... just hoping against hope..

----------


## Tracy C

> has anybody noticed anything yet? it's been a couple weeks and fly had good results after 2 months...


 Going to inject a little bit of reality for you...  If you have MPB and if anything is going to happen at all that is medically significant, it is going to be at least four to six months.  No less.  Those who have hair loss from other causes can see results much sooner - but true MPB takes longer because you are fighting against nature.  Anyways, cosmetically significant results will take much longer than medically significant results - like 12 months.

----------


## the_dude78

> Going to inject a little bit of reality for you...  If you have MPB and if anything is going to happen at all that is medically significant, it is going to be at least four to six months.  No less.  Those who have hair loss from other causes can see results much sooner - but true MPB takes longer because you are fighting against nature.  Anyways, cosmetically significant results will take much longer than medically significant results - like 12 months.


 So you're saying that PrettyFly is a fraud, or he doesn't have true MPB?

----------


## hellouser

> So you're saying that PrettyFly is a fraud, or he doesn't have true MPB?


 Neither. She doesn't fully comprehend MPB nor the hair growth cycle.

Pay no attention to her.

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

this forum was so great when tracy stopped posting here

----------


## john2399

> this forum was so great when tracy stopped posting here


 thats cold lol

----------


## Conpecia

> *Going to inject a little bit of reality for you*...  If you have MPB and if anything is going to happen at all that is medically significant, it is going to be at least four to six months.  No less.  Those who have hair loss from other causes can see results much sooner - but true MPB takes longer because you are fighting against nature.  Anyways, cosmetically significant results will take much longer than medically significant results - like 12 months.


 going to inject a little bit of humility:



seriously, the problem with blindly adhering to the propecia/minox/niz way of life and then bashing those who attempt to go beyond is that you don't really learn a lot about hair loss treatments or methods for observing *subtle* change, which of course leads to ridiculous, sweeping assumptions like the one above.

----------


## hellouser

> going to inject a little bit of humility:
> 
> 
> 
> seriously, the problem with blindly adhering to the propecia/minox/niz way of life and then bashing those who attempt to go beyond is that you don't really learn a lot about hair loss treatments or methods for observing *subtle* change, which of course leads to ridiculous, sweeping assumptions like the one above.


 It also leads to a far more serious problem with the hair loss community:

*Complacence.*

This is possibly the greatest reason as to why in 2013 there is nothing better than finasteride and minoxidil which has lead us to our monumental failure in bringing an acceptable treatment or cure. You only have yourself to blame for the state of the hair loss community when all you do is shrug your shoulders and prop up finasteride.

----------


## Pentarou

> Hopefully, once this dermaroller community trial comes to a close we'll all get positive results. After that, I'll make a 'Complete Dermaroller Guide' thread much like my RU58841 guide.


 That'll be awesome.

----------


## Tracy C

> Neither. She doesn't fully comprehend MPB nor the hair growth cycle.


 I understand both a whole better than you do.  Paying attention to me is not a requirement.  Nor is paying attention to you.  Sadly, some of these guys actually do pay attention to you - and that is a very sad thing indeed.

The dermaroller is still an interesting idea though.

----------


## Tracy C

> So you're saying that PrettyFly is a fraud, or he doesn't have true MPB?


 One or the other.

----------


## hellouser

> I understand both a whole better than you do.  Paying attention to me is not a requirement.  Nor is paying attention to you.  Sadly, some of these guys actually do pay attention to you - and that is a very sad thing indeed.
> 
> The dermaroller is still an interesting idea though.


 Great contribution.

Now please leave.

----------


## Tracy C

> this forum was so great when tracy stopped posting here


 Cause you guys love to reject reality and anybody who threatens your fantacy with even the smallest dose of reality.

If you don't like what I write.  Don't read it.  Just move along and continue on with your fantasy.

----------


## Tracy C

> idiotic nonsense.


 I am rarely mistaken.

----------


## Tracy C

> Great contribution.
> 
> Now please leave.


 Who do you think are you fool.  Bite me.

----------


## goldbondmafia

Anyone use the dermaroller with rogaine foam? Do you actually apply foam onto the roller or do you just use the roller on skin THEN apply the foam once the skin is broken? 

I am awaiting mine in the mail and want to make sure I am doing it correctly

----------


## chimera

C'mon guys, let's stay on topic




> Anyone use the dermaroller with rogaine foam? Do you actually apply foam onto the roller or do you just use the roller on skin THEN apply the foam once the skin is broken? 
> 
> I am awaiting mine in the mail and want to make sure I am doing it correctly


 This is like the fiftieth time this is repeated in this thread: you do not use minoxidil the day you use the dermaroller, as this is not about absorption, this is all about the reelease of growth factors

----------


## Californication

What is the tactic on rolling and applying a topical AA? Don't apply it that day for the same reasons as minoxidil (with RU at least, theoretically CB should be harmless)?

----------


## Tracy C

> I am awaiting mine in the mail and want to make sure I am doing it correctly


 You use the roller once a week but do not use Minoxidil on the evening you use the roller.  You use Minoxidil the rest of the week as normal.

It should not matter if you are using the liquid or the foam.

For what it's worth, I do think this is an interesting idea and I think I have figured out how to use the roller without getting my long hair tangled up in the roller, so I am going to give the dermaroller a try as well.

----------


## hellouser

> What is the tactic on rolling and applying a topical AA? Don't apply it that day for the same reasons as minoxidil (with RU at least, theoretically CB should be harmless)?


 RU will probably go badly systemic with such easy penetration. I wouldn't use it. CB goes benign once in the bloodstream so it should be safe.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> You use the roller once a week but do not use Minoxidil on the evening you use the roller.  You use Minoxidil the rest of the week as normal.
> 
> It should not matter if you are using the liquid or the foam.
> 
> For what it's worth, I do think this is an interesting idea and I think I have figured out how to use the roller without getting my long hair tangled up in the roller, so I am going to give the dermaroller a try as well.


 I see so rogaine foam 2x per day then Sunday only use the foam in the morning, dermaroller at night then Monday morning back to the normal routine of 2x day?

----------


## HARIRI

> You use the roller once a week but do not use Minoxidil on the evening you use the roller.  You use Minoxidil the rest of the week as normal.
> 
> It should not matter if you are using the liquid or the foam.
> 
> For what it's worth, I do think this is an interesting idea and I think I have figured out how to use the roller without getting my long hair tangled up in the roller, so I am going to give the dermaroller a try as well.


 Thanks for the advice Tracy but may I know why we should not use Minoxidil after the dermaroller weekly session?  :Confused: 

2nd question for how many minutes we should use the dermaroller if used once a week? some said 10 minutes, whats your thought about that?

----------


## john2399

> Thanks for the advice Tracy but may I know why we should not use Minoxidil after the dermaroller weekly session? 
> 
> 2nd question for how many minutes we should use the dermaroller if used once a week? some said 10 minutes, whats your thought about that?


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTd...ature=youtu.be

----------


## PrettyFly83

> One or the other.


 I don't appreciate being called a fraud or or a fake suffering some other disease! I have healthy thick back and sides and have been loosing hair steadily for the last 9 years - classic MPB. My results may be unique but I have not hidden anything from this forum as I sincerely hope other people can experience the regrowth that I have.

----------


## KeepHoping

I'm confused Tracy.  Are you suggesting that this study is fabricated?  What would be their incentive for faking a study?  They aren't selling a product, they're just telling you to use existing treatments and use a dermaroller that you can find on amazon for super cheap.  Doesn't seem like it would make sense to fabricate a study and make up that people had hair growth unless they were selling a product they themselves would profit from right?

----------


## Hicks

> If you don't like what I write.  Don't read it.  Just move along and continue on with your fantasy.


 I wish the moderators would do their job.  This forum is like the wild west of forums. It's really 50/50 if a thread stays on topic.

----------


## simba

I wish we had an ignore button

----------


## the_dude78

> I got a new job and that along with band practice is keeping me from making the show.  Joe's negativity was really getting to me anyways.  I may still participate from time to time.
> 
> I tend to stay out of the men's section of this forum because stupid is contagious.  Some of these guys need more help than anyone gave give them.


 Tracy, this thread was doing just fine before you started commenting. If you feel the men's section is stupid and contagious, then please, please stay away. The tone in the thread was fine and friendly until you started attacking people, well, the entire forum really. Why all this bitterness? We are all skeptical when it comes to new treatments, and we have all been let down so many times, but at least we keep an open mind and keep hoping. Why can't you just accept that people have different opinions and just let it be and move on?

----------


## Hicks

> I wish we had an ignore button


  Go to their profile and you can add them to your ignore list. I have 2 on mine. Not sure how it works. So far so good  :Big Grin:  

I rolled Sunday. Still a little tender this morning.

----------


## Artista

> I got a new job and that along with band practice is keeping me from making the show.  Joe's negativity was really getting to me anyways.  I may still participate from time to time.
> 
> I tend to stay out of the men's section of this forum because stupid is contagious.  Some of these guys need more help than anyone gave give them.


 I understand *Tracy*, Congrats on your new job and keep on playing!
 (by the way..Ive been playing bass and guitar since I was a kid-been in a few very good bands..fun times)

----------


## HARIRI

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTd...ature=youtu.be


 Super thanks John2399  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin: 

The Dermaroller shown in the video is quite scary. Nanogen Titanium scalp roller looks more friendly lol. 

http://www.nanogenaustralia.com/prod...roductid=16165

----------


## chimera

> The Dermaroller shown in the video is quite scary. Nanogen Titanium scalp roller looks more friendly lol.


 Nope, it has to be 1.5 mm. 0.5 has been used in the past without results. Makes sense, follicles are 1.5 to 2.0 mm, and we want tu hurt them

----------


## Tracy C

> Thanks for the advice Tracy but may I know why we should not use Minoxidil after the dermaroller weekly session?


 Read the warning on your bottle of Minoxidil.






> 2nd question for how many minutes we should use the dermaroller if used once a week? some said 10 minutes, whats your thought about that?


 I would expect that would depend on the size of your affected area.  Mine is not very big so I doubt it would take me 10 minutes to do it.

----------


## Tracy C

> I don't appreciate being called a fraud or or a fake...


 You are not required to appreciate it.  But you are required to tolerate it if you are going to post here.  If you put up with 10% of the BS some of these guys give me, you would be crying all the way home to your mommy.






> I'm confused Tracy.  Are you suggesting that this study is fabricated?


 I never once said the study was fabricated.  I said it was not a good study.  If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that I do feel this is an interesting idea and plan to try it myself.  I just give any weight to posters who claim to have seen results, especially so soon.






> I wish the moderators would do their job.


 They are...

Think about that for a minute or two.






> Tracy, this thread was doing just fine before you started commenting.


 I have done no harm to this thread at all in any way shape or form.  Get off your soap box.  You don't belong there.

----------


## Tracy C

> I understand *Tracy*, Congrats on your new job and keep on playing!
>  (by the way..Ive been playing bass and guitar since I was a kid-been in a few very good bands..fun times)


 Getting my hair back has given me the confidence to start playing in front of an audience again.  It's a very liberating feeling.  Getting back to work after 18 months of unemployment is great too.  I don't make as much money in my new job as I did in my last job - but I am payed well and I like the job.  I just miss working in the research environment.  I did that for so long.  It's going to take time to acclimate to working in the real world.  LOL

----------


## the_dude78

> I have done no harm to this thread at all in any way shape or form.  Get off your soap box.  You don't belong there.


 I do belong here...I'm a balding man. This a forum for balding *men*.

But yes, I should've sent you a PM instead . (Is that even possible here?)

Let's keep this thread on track from now on!

----------


## Pentarou

> Cause you guys love to reject reality and anybody who threatens your fantacy with even the smallest dose of reality.
> 
> If you don't like what I write.  Don't read it.  Just move along and continue on with your fantasy.


 If you mean the experimentation going on, can you blame us guys? The pipeline is dry until the end of the decade, with only Cosmo's CB to look forward to between now and then (unless GSK get Avodart phase III'd as a hair loss treatment). Even us guys who can use finasteride _sans problemo_ realise it has only very limited omph to regrow hair. These guys experimenting aren't killing or bankrupting themselves, and can at least use their experiences to rule out dead ends.

----------


## HARIRI

> Nope, it has to be 1.5 mm. 0.5 has been used in the past without results. Makes sense, follicles are 1.5 to 2.0 mm, and we want tu hurt them


 Damn, so do you mean that I have to return it? I hope they accept refund otherwise Im f***d up. Nanogen 0.5mm titanium scalp roller is quite expensive  :Frown: 

Guys any thoughts about length of the needle? Should it really be 1.5mm to benefit from it?  :Confused:

----------


## rdawg

> If you mean the experimentation going on, can you blame us guys? The pipeline is dry until the end of the decade, with only Cosmo's CB to look forward to between now and then (unless GSK get Avodart phase III'd as a hair loss treatment). Even us guys who can use finasteride _sans problemo_ realise it has only very limited omph to regrow hair. These guys experimenting aren't killing or bankrupting themselves, and can at least use their experiences to rule out dead ends.


 I'd say BIM is also guarenteed to come out(it's been proven to cause some growth, they just want to get more) within the next couple years. They already or are about to start phase IIb(which was pretty quick). 

Histogen has a strong chance as well, but we'll see about that. They need to get to IIb already!

----------


## Dan26

> Damn, so do you mean that I have to return it? I hope they accept refund otherwise Im f***d up. Nanogen 0.5mm titanium scalp roller is quite expensive 
> 
> Guys any thoughts about length of the needle? Should it really be 1.5mm to benefit from it?


 You need 1.5mm for wounding, as the study shows. You can use 0.5mm for skin so maybe keep it anyways.

----------


## HARIRI

> You need 1.5mm for wounding, as the study shows. You can use 0.5mm for skin so maybe keep it anyways.


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Derma-Roller...item20cd469374

There is a table under the Item description about which mm is suitable for your purpose. I think its the recommended one in the video posted by john2399.

It says for HairRegeneration，Regrowth, we have to use 0.25 or 0.3 or 0.5 and maximum 0.75!!! Any comment about that?  :Confused:

----------


## hellouser

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Derma-Roller...item20cd469374
> 
> There is a table under the Item description about which mm is suitable for your purpose. I think its the recommended one in the video posted by john2399.
> 
> It says for HairRegeneration，Regrowth, we have to use 0.25 or 0.3 or 0.5 and maximum 0.75!!! Any comment about that?


 I wouldnt trust any claims from eBay over BTT members... except for one obvious member.

----------


## HARIRI

> I wouldnt trust any claims from eBay over BTT members... except for one obvious member.


 hellouser, do you also believe that my dermaroller should be 1.5mm and NOT less in order to get positive results?

----------


## hellouser

> hellouser, do you also believe that my dermaroller should be 1.5mm and NOT less in order to get positive results?


 I think it largely depends how deep your follicles are and skin thickness will play a major part in that. Everyone is different, my skin may be thicker than yours also I know that it is quite thin in my temples. However, even when I roll with the 1.5mm, I don't get anywhere near the kind of bleeding that some patients got in the videos posted here (like that woman running the dermaroller all over the guys face and neck). I only get small dots of blood here and there.

----------


## HARIRI

I think I will order another dermaroller around 1.5mm

I have 2 options:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titanium-der...item4171dddfb4

OR

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Derma-Roller...item20cd469374

Which one do you recommend? Any thoughts guys? I have to make a decision as soon as possible.

----------


## walrus

Does the study say WHY they choose 1.5mm? If not, then perhaps the effect of different needle size was not tested. Much of this is still unknown. 0.5mm might work just as well, but we can't say for sure. If the paper is to be believed, all we do know is that they got results using 1.5mm. So until we have evidence on the contrary (from a properly designed study), the same needle size would be advisable.

----------


## chimera

> Does the study say WHY they choose 1.5mm? If not, then perhaps the effect of different needle size was not tested. Much of this is still unknown. 0.5mm might work just as well, but we can't say for sure. If the paper is to be believed, all we do know is that they got results using 1.5mm. So until we have evidence on the contrary (from a properly designed study), the same needle size would be advisable.


 I suppose they choose 1.5 because they didn't care about improving absorption, they were trying to another thing, which is the release of growth factors. They had to damage the follicle. 

And, in most people, follicles are 1.5 to 2.0 mm deep. You won't be able to damage your follicles at 1.0, much less at 0.5

----------


## GreyGhost1864

I hope everyone is doing well. I figured a little update.....so I would say even last month I could gently rub in the baldest areas of my crown and feel no hair just skin. Today doing the same thing I feel something there. I sure it is still blond but I think this is a good sign. I am scared to take a new pic but will do so in 3 more weeks. I took my baseline pics a few weeks back. 

BTW guys I know how all of you feel. Been going thru this for 21 years. I just hope if this doesn't work that something good is around the corner. I have been taking care of my skin for a very long time and I do not look 40. With a hat on I can pass for 30. I just hope by the time I am 45 I can feel the wind in my hair again. Take care of your skin and its true the gym really helps balance the mind and stress factors we all have. Your day will come.....

Ghost

----------


## chimera

> hellouser, do you also believe that my dermaroller should be 1.5mm and NOT less in order to get positive results?


 Remember that much of this "hair growth through growth factors" is kind of new (but not completely new). Dermaroller has been used for ages, but it has not been used to damage the follicles, just to improve absorption. You can improve absorption with a 0.5 or a 1.0 mm dermaroller, and that's why you will find that is the right size from every guy who sells dermarollers, but we are after another thing: damage, that is why you need a longer one.

----------


## walrus

> I suppose they choose 1.5 because they didn't care about improving absorption, they were trying to another thing, which is the release of growth factors. They had to damage the follicle. 
> 
> And, in most people, follicles are 1.5 to 2.0 mm deep. You won't be able to damage your follicles at 1.0, much less at 0.5


 The rationale makes sense, but it still remains to be tested properly.

----------


## bigentries

> Does the study say WHY they choose 1.5mm? If not, then perhaps the effect of different needle size was not tested. Much of this is still unknown. 0.5mm might work just as well, but we can't say for sure. If the paper is to be believed, all we do know is that they got results using 1.5mm. So until we have evidence on the contrary (from a properly designed study), the same needle size would be advisable.


 The study clearly says at the end that there are still questions about needle size, periodicity, mechanisms, etc.

I don't understand why people are even speculating about better approaches

If the study is legit, the results should be reproducible, if they aren't, most of the speculation is probably going to lead nowhere.
First we need enough experiences with the study as it is, then we can play armchair scientists, but we need at least 12 weeks to be sure

I'm doing my part, reproducing the study the best I can, if I see something, I'll post pics

----------


## fred970

I'll wait to see if other members get results from this. I hope it doesn't end up like Cetirizine. 

See you in November!

----------


## Space

Is there any point trying dermaroller on its own without Minox or anything else?

----------


## hellouser

> Is there any point trying dermaroller on its own without Minox or anything else?


 Yes, there could be. I posted an article from the 1980s about a man being a scalp burn victim. Once his wounds healed, he regrew all of his hair in the burned area.

----------


## walrus

> Is there any point trying dermaroller on its own without Minox or anything else?


 This is what I am currently trying myself.

----------


## Gjm127

> This is what I am currently trying myself.


 The thing is, I've never been on ANY hair medication and I'm really afraid of what could happen if I start using minoxidil for the first time in my life and use the dermaroller too (eg. massive shed).

Were the patients in the clinical trials new to minoxidil too? Or was the study done just by adding the dermaroller to a regimen that already included applying minoxidil on the scalp many year prior to the dermaroller use?

I fear the shed. That's all that's stopping me from using minox. I guess I'll have to get over it some time, I just don't know how.  :Frown:

----------


## Space

> The thing is, I've never been on ANY hair medication and I'm really afraid of what could happen if I start using minoxidil for the first time in my life and use the dermaroller too (eg. massive shed).
> 
> Were the patients in the clinical trials new to minoxidil too? Or was the study done just by adding the dermaroller to a regimen that already included applying minoxidil on the scalp many year prior to the dermaroller use?
> 
> I fear the shed. That's all that's stopping me from using minox. I guess I'll have to get over it some time, I just don't know how.


 This is not one of those things where you need to get over your fear and all will be well.

Your fear may well be merited. As for me I stay away from minoxidil because i fear both the shed and the wrinkles in the face some people have experienced.

----------


## hellouser

> This is not one of those things where you need to get over your fear and all will be well.
> 
> Your fear may well be merited. As for me I stay away from minoxidil because i fear both the shed and the wrinkles in the face some people have experienced.


 The shed always comes back either to its same previous density or better. It just may take a while for it to happen.

----------


## LevonHelms

Apparently Dr. Nigam has spoken with one of the researchers involved in the study, and plans to meet with her. I'd like to be a fly on that wall.


Excerpt from Dr. Nigam's reply to critics;

"4)You criticize me for having allowed Boldy to help me..I find no harm in the same..I speak to top researchers like Gerd, Jahoda,Stenn,Michael,Rajesh and many others...Boldy saved my time by finding the relevant published work which i needed....I have also spoke to Dr Thurat who did dermaroller study with minox..she and I will met shortly as she is from Mumbai."

----------


## walrus

> The thing is, I've never been on ANY hair medication and I'm really afraid of what could happen if I start using minoxidil for the first time in my life and use the dermaroller too (eg. massive shed).


 First I am trying only dermarolling once per week on my temples without minoxidil.

----------


## Pentarou

Question before I pull the trigger on buying a derma roller: is it mandatory to buzz or shave your hair down to use a roller successfully?

----------


## walrus

Nope, if you roll once each direction (instead of backwards and forwards), hair won't get tangled.

----------


## Tracy C

> If the study is legit, the results should be reproducible, if they aren't, most of the speculation is probably going to lead nowhere.


 Exactly.






> First we need enough experiences with the study as it is, then we can play armchair scientists, but we need at least 12 weeks to be sure.


 To truly reproduce the pilot study everything needs to be exactly the same and it needs to be twelve weeks.  To truly determine if it is better than using Minoxidil alone would take twelve months.

----------


## Tracy C

> I do belong here...I'm a balding man. This a forum for balding *men*.


 The Bald Truth is for both men and women who suffer with hereditary hair loss.

I said get off that soap box.  You do not belong on it.






> If you mean the experimentation going on...


 No.  You don't get it.






> Guys any thoughts about length of the needle? Should it really be 1.5mm to benefit from it?


 If you hope to achieve similar results reported in the pilot study, you need to follow the methodology as close to exact as possible.






> I wouldnt trust any claims from eBay over BTT members... except for one obvious member.


 Oh come on.  Pull your head out of your butt fool.  If you ever do you will find that I have been right a whole lot more than you will ever agree to admit.

----------


## luca10

Continues growth PrettyFly83?

----------


## PrettyFly83

> Continues growth PrettyFly83?


 I'll post pics at the end of the month as this will be the three month mark as per the study. Only been two weeks since my last pics

----------


## brunobald

It would be nice to have all the pics in one place, so they could be collated into one .pdf file that anyone can download.

We could set up a free cloud storage account or use something like photobucket. Them each participant would upload the pics with stirct file naming of the photos. Something like...  
Brunobald_Base_line.jpg
Brunobald_Wk3.jpg
Brunobald_Wk6.jpg
Brunobald_Wk9.jpg

and so on

This means someone can opt to do the job of creating a document with all the results and it would be easy to find and arrange in the correct order, without having to go through this whole thread and download each one.

----------


## PrettyFly83

> It would be nice to have all the pics in one place, so they could be collated into one .pdf file that anyone can download.
> 
> We could set up a free cloud storage account or use something like photobucket. Them each participant would upload the pics with stirct file naming of the photos. Something like...  
> Brunobald_Base_line.jpg
> Brunobald_Wk3.jpg
> Brunobald_Wk6.jpg
> Brunobald_Wk9.jpg
> 
> and so on
> ...


 This is a good idea Bruno - you could include a paragraph stating each persons regime that way compare any differences in results with the treatment method.  As owner of  the thread, Hellouser you interested in this?

----------


## Hicks

> It would be nice to have all the pics in one place, so they could be collated into one .pdf file that anyone can download.
> 
> We could set up a free cloud storage account or use something like photobucket. Them each participant would upload the pics with stirct file naming of the photos. Something like...  
> Brunobald_Base_line.jpg
> Brunobald_Wk3.jpg
> Brunobald_Wk6.jpg
> Brunobald_Wk9.jpg
> 
> and so on
> ...


 +1 for this,  I don't have time to filter through these threads then hit 2 pages of off topic.  I'll continue to document on my own but if something interesting pops up I'll post.

Maybe even create a Thread of week 3 dermarolling results,  then another NEW thread of week 6 results.  would be even nicer if someone can post the result and everyone else doesn't start debating the results.

----------


## Conpecia

> +1 for this,  I don't have time to filter through these threads then hit 2 pages of off topic.  I'll continue to document on my own but if something interesting pops up I'll post.
> 
> Maybe even create a Thread of week 3 dermarolling results,  then another NEW thread of week 6 results.  would be even nicer if someone can post the result and everyone else doesn't start debating the results.


 I agree with this.

We can chat here, but let's create a Week 3 Dermarolling Results thread with just posts, then a Week 6, Week 9, etc. Great idea.

----------


## sosa56

> The study show that you need to clean the scalp with Betadine and Saline solution. I am doing that. Betadine and Saline solution is cheap and easy to apply. That way you prevent any possible infection or follicle inflammation.


 Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling? 

Hellouser are you using betadine and what are your views on it's necessity for the effectiveness of the procedure (i.e. if one doesnt use it then one will get micro infections in the follicles thereby causing 'bad' inflammation and negating the effects of the dermarolling as the poster above seems to suggest - surely you'd be able to tell if you had a scalp infection, isnt the betadine just applied to prevent an infection from the dermarolling?)?

----------


## hellouser

> Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling? 
> 
> Hellouser are you using betadine and what are your views on it's necessity for the effectiveness of the procedure (i.e. if one doesnt use it then one will get micro infections in the follicles thereby causing 'bad' inflammation and negating the effects of the dermarolling as the poster above seems to suggest - surely you'd be able to tell if you had a scalp infection, isnt the betadine just applied to prevent an infection from the dermarolling?)?


 I can say with certainty that my scalp is pretty itchy lately, and had a burning sensation for the next 24 hours after my last dermarolling solution. I don't use anything after dermarolling, i leave the skin as is and go to bed. I do use isopropanol to clean my dermaroller.

As a side note, I've been shedding a LOT in the last few days. Not sure why. I did drop RU a few months ago, and have been shedding for about a month regardless.

----------


## sosa56

> I can say with certainty that my scalp is pretty itchy lately, and had a burning sensation for the next 24 hours after my last dermarolling solution. I don't use anything after dermarolling, i leave the skin as is and go to bed. I do use isopropanol to clean my dermaroller.
> 
> As a side note, I've been shedding a LOT in the last few days. Not sure why. I did drop RU a few months ago, and have been shedding for about a month regardless.


 No but in the study protocol it says that betadine is used before the rolling to prepare the scalp

----------


## Hicks

> Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling? 
> 
> Hellouser are you using betadine and what are your views on it's necessity for the effectiveness of the procedure (i.e. if one doesnt use it then one will get micro infections in the follicles thereby causing 'bad' inflammation and negating the effects of the dermarolling as the poster above seems to suggest - surely you'd be able to tell if you had a scalp infection, isnt the betadine just applied to prevent an infection from the dermarolling?)?


 I was wondering the same. Does betadine stain? Saline solution I just put some in my hair. The goal is to disinfect your scalp. After I rollered I used coconut oil. I used coconut oil because that's what I had.

----------


## hellouser

Theres an AWESOME contribution to the wounding theory on Hair Loss Talk from a member by the name of 'princessrambo'




> I think timing is critical when introducing an anti-inflammatory.
> 
> Prostaglandin D2 Inhibits Wound-Induced Hair Follicle Neogenesis through the Receptor, Gpr44
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> ...


 Link to thread: http://dft.ba/-princessrambo-wounding

----------


## chimera

So, If we keep wounding once a week, would that keep the PGD2 low and the PGE high?

----------


## the_dude78

> Theres an AWESOME contribution to the wounding theory on Hair Loss Talk from a member by the name of 'princessrambo'
> 
> 
> 
> Link to thread: http://dft.ba/-princessrambo-wounding


 Great find, Hellouser! Very interesting.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

I am going to do it once a week for the first 12 then go to every 10 days. Will add the calcipatrol she speaks of. Spelled wrong. Scared to take a pic but I can tell you I feel fur in my crown. Can I get a amen. Close gents.....results in numbers! Ideas no lab FDA bs!
Ghost

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i feel excited about it,  cant wait for results guys. do you think we solve the curse?

----------


## hellouser

> i feel excited about it,  cant wait for results guys. do you think we solve the curse?


 Given that the guy that had the burned scalp and regrew everything in that area... I think its absolutely *POSSIBLE* but we're still some steps away... as in; how deep do we wound? how often? when do we add minox? how much minox? should we inhibit anything else? does skins thickness play a role?

There are probably more questions we haven't yet asked that would answer this dilemma further.

----------


## Conpecia

that's a damn good post. maybe i'll start by doing it every other week instead of every week.

----------


## brunobald

Threads like that one just posted are another reason why we need a central website/forum concentrated on curing MPB. There are nuggets of golden info and conversation littered over several forums. If we can bring our minds together we can be far more effective than any single lab on earth. This is what the internet does so well. We are not fueled by the promise of money but a passion for advancing our treatment, something far more driven than a hired gun in a research lab. Sorry for going off topic but the potential of every guy and girl who is pissed off by hairloss contributing to a project like this is very exciting.

----------


## clandestine

> Given that the guy that had the burned scalp and regrew everything in that area... I think its absolutely *POSSIBLE* but we're still some steps away... as in; how deep do we wound? how often? when do we add minox? how much minox? should we inhibit anything else? does skins thickness play a role?
> 
> There are probably more questions we haven't yet asked that would answer this dilemma further.


 Link to thread with guy who had burned scalp and regrew?

----------


## clarence

> Given that the guy that had the burned scalp and regrew everything in that area...


 Hearsay.

----------


## hellouser

> Hearsay.


 Dismissing the case would be ignorant. I would use it as support but not fact.

----------


## walrus

> Theres an AWESOME contribution to the wounding theory on Hair Loss Talk from a member by the name of 'princessrambo'
> 
> 
> 
> Link to thread: http://dft.ba/-princessrambo-wounding


 Very nice find, feels like we are really homing in on something.

----------


## hellouser

> Very nice find, feels like we are really homing in on something.


 Follica is supposedly using FGF-9 for their treatment for NEW hair follicle creation. I'm really curious if purchasing a small amount of FGF-9, putting it into a saline solution, and injecting it with a diabetic needle during or AFTER dermarolling/wounding would have give results.

Some guys tried using BNP-32, we know our body produces more of that on its own during heart failure, but FGF-9 is also produced by the body. It could potentially be very safe.

----------


## clandestine

> Link to thread with guy who had burned scalp and regrew?


 hellouser;

----------


## hellouser

> Link to thread with guy who had burned scalp and regrew?


 Its in this thread:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=117

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Just looked into my 10x mirror. And do not judge. I only had my transplanted hairs there. Last week in my widows peak had 8 new in a square inch area. Looked tonight many more. Have such high hopes! Other guys are right our means are not driven by money but our freedom from this bs. Keep the faith brothers.
Ghost

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Brunobald you are correct! Together as many without thinking about money....we can solve this and maybe set a new standard for many other ailments. We can be the benchmark for other groups. Like I said what we do in life echos in eternity!
Ghost

----------


## clandestine

GreyGhost; what is your current regimen?

----------


## clandestine

> Its in this thread:
> 
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=117


 Thanks, that's interesting.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Capillogain light and scalp med with booster. I know many downed capillogain but my eye brows are sweet. So I use cap in the morning and rub exsess on my eye brows. Use scalp med and booster at night. Update got promox in the mail. Dropping scalp med. So cap morning with eye brow swipe. Lunch 10% promox spray. Dinner 15% lotion. After 12 weeks of 540 pin 1.5's going to roll into every 10 days. **** hair loss. I just want 5 minutes with my ex wife.....god give me that!
Ghost

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Mother ****er 5 minutes. I wouldn't piss on her head if she was on ****ing fire. I would because I am a good man. Dammit!
Ghost

----------


## GreyGhost1864

21 years no peace! Norwood 6. I only feel normal in a ****ing hat! Tired!!!!!!!!!
I want my time here. A time of ****ing peace. To feel sexy and wanted. Not this head low slumped shoulder bullshit! Now god dammit! 21 years is enough!

Ghost

----------


## Tracy C

> Where do you get your betadine and saline solution?


 You can get both at your local pharmacy.  Then follow the directions on the bottles.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys we must focus on the factor of shaved head.,

i believe if we dont shave we should get 2mm dermarollers...  

i will get and press hard enough,

whats your opinion on differencies in galea tightness and wounding released factors? does it play a role?

----------


## goingquick

Any suggestions to which derma roller to get?  An amazon link would be appreciated

----------


## mari0s

> Any suggestions to which derma roller to get?  An amazon link would be appreciated


 from what i have seen the much expensive (and apreciated) brand is dr. roller, try to find one with the same characteristics

----------


## dex89

I'm actually going to try this. I'll be buying mine at

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titanium-Der...item4ab42a2573

----------


## LevonHelms

Dex, thats a 540 count roller. Everyone seems in agreement the 192 count rollers are the way to go.

----------


## hellouser

> Dex, thats a 540 count roller. Everyone seems in agreement the 192 count rollers are the way to go.


 It probably doesn't matter as long as youre wounding enough.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Dex, thats a 540 count roller. Everyone seems in agreement the 192 count rollers are the way to go.


 I just asked Dr. Cole about 540 vs 192.  He told me that there currently isn't any reliable study indicating that either is better.  Then the question is how many passes with either roller? It appears to me that 540 would give more uniform surface coverage.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

true but we should do it like the study who knows the outcome if anything changes

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys the shaving was in the study for needling purpose or for hair length purpose o day and 12 week?

----------


## chimera

> guys the shaving was in the study for needling purpose or for hair length purpose o day and 12 week?


 "After baseline global photographs, *the scalp were shaved off to ensure equal length of hair shaft in all*"

----------


## hellouser

There was a thread on another forum I saw where a guy had a tattoo removed from his arm using a laser. In the following weeks, thick terminal hair grew from this area, and not just one or two strands of hair, at least a dozen within the former tattoo area which looked to be about 2x2 inches in size.


Photo:



Thread Source:

http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthr...wth_in_Ta.html

Here's what one person in that thread had to say about lasers on the skin:




> The area of the scapula is not due to receive hair on women. On the other hand many men have it.
> 
> The risk of hairs stimulated by the laser, increases when the sessions are recurrent.
> 
> Studies show that injuries (any type) long, induce hair growth in the area.
> Have studied many types of injuries that produce this stimulation. As an example, the side of the back that bears the burden of bags. Or the Spanish carriers shoulder yet another burden to bear "sacred". Or that of girls who self-injure themselves by a disturbance in behavior.

----------


## dex89

> There was a thread on another forum I saw where a guy had a tattoo removed from his arm using a laser. In the following weeks, thick terminal hair grew from this area, and not just one or two strands of hair, at least a dozen within the former tattoo area which looked to be about 2x2 inches in size.
> 
> 
> Photo:
> 
> 
> 
> Thread Source:
> 
> ...


 I personally think it's to good to be true but F it, might as well give it a shot  like the other hair loss products I've tried. lol

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

nice hell

laser wounding sounds even more hitech......
i guess he was not boosting pge2 too



thanks chimera , so i will get 1.5mm and not shave hair away but press enough

----------


## chimera

oh man, this is all so exciting, but it is going to be so sad and painfull when it ends in another failure  :Frown:

----------


## walrus

Anyone noticed anything thus far? Been a couple of weeks and the study saw results fast.

----------


## Hicks

> oh man, this is all so exciting, but it is going to be so sad and painfull when it ends in another failure


 At least we'll go down swinging!

----------


## hellouser

> Anyone noticed anything thus far? Been a couple of weeks and the study saw results fast.


 Nothing yet on my end, although I keep trying to look real close on my right temple and it almost looks like theres a single very thick hair growing just a few mm behind my hairline. I can't tell if this a new hair or an existing hair grown as it normally would.

I can with certainty that I'm shedding a lot in the last few weeks though. After each dermarolling session my scalp has a bit of a burning sensation. Last night, my 3rd dermarolling session, I had a more bleeding than the other two times. I would pretty much use my first session 2 weeks ago as a write off since there was very little blood. Its been about 17 hours since I dermarolled and I can still feel my scalp with a burning sensation. Its not itchy, it just feels 'inflamed'. I'm not sure what to make of this.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

look brothers if it doesnt work then the study is fake or indians have diferent mpb gene , i cant explain it else

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

lets hope the wnts get induced, 


> Nothing yet on my end, although I keep trying to look real close on my right temple and it almost looks like theres a single very thick hair growing just a few mm behind my hairline. I can't tell if this a new hair or an existing hair grown as it normally would.
> 
> I can with certainty that I'm shedding a lot in the last few weeks though. After each dermarolling session my scalp has a bit of a burning sensation. Last night, my 3rd dermarolling session, I had a more bleeding than the other two times. I would pretty much use my first session 2 weeks ago as a write off since there was very little blood. Its been about 17 hours since I dermarolled and I can still feel my scalp with a burning sensation. Its not itchy, it just feels 'inflamed'. I'm not sure what to make of this.

----------


## bigentries

> look brothers if it doesnt work then the study is fake or indians have diferent mpb gene , i cant explain it else


 It doesn't have to be "fake", some studies are just subconsciously biased or badly conducted

I think people are again in the naive positivity territory, they need to calm down and wait a few weeks before speculating about anything.
The way people reacted at Tracy shows that some people have already decided to stop questioning the study

----------


## hellouser

Found an article from 1988 on '*The Psoriatic Epidermal Lesion and Anagen Hair Growth May Share the Same "Switch-on" Mechanism*'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00077-0087.pdf

This theory predates Dr. Cotsarelis by about 20 years. Its interesting that nothing was done during that time to explore the theory further.

----------


## HARIRI

> I'm actually going to try this. I'll be buying mine at
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titanium-Der...item4ab42a2573


 I may order this one, 540 needles for better coverage 1mm needles made of pure titanium no corrosion  :Big Grin: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/540-Micro-Ne...item3a71f7426a

----------


## hellouser

> Found an article from 1988 on '*The Psoriatic Epidermal Lesion and Anagen Hair Growth May Share the Same "Switch-on" Mechanism*'
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00077-0087.pdf
> 
> This theory predates Dr. Cotsarelis by about 20 years. Its interesting that nothing was done during that time to explore the theory further.


 Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;

*Skin wound healing and hair growth device*
Inventors	Masahiro Ogasawara
Applicant	Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en

Here's one of the results in their patent study:



Then I found this article:

*Dextran hydrogel scaffolds enhance angiogenic responses and promote complete skin regeneration during burn wound healing*




> A 5-week-long study further demonstrated that dextran hydrogels promote complete skin regeneration with new hair growth


 Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/52/2...expansion.html

And another wounding article:

*Epithelial stem cells and implications for wound repair*




> The role of epithelial stem cells in wounding-induced hair follicle neogenesis. Following re-epithelialization of large full-thickness wounds, new hair follicles develop from the basal cells of the wound epidermis via a process of embryonic-like neogenesis.


 Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...84952112001814

Found another article on a wounding anecdote from Stanford:

_The secret life of hair follicles, revealed by Stanford researchers_




> Besides hair regeneration, the circuit is triggered by skin injury to stimulate migration of the bulge cells to the wounded area to differentiate into epidermal cells, thereby regenerating epidermis over the wounded skin.


 Source: http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/0...d-researchers/

An unrelated article:
*Published Studies on Tissue and Skin Remodeling Copper-Peptides*
Source: http://skinbiology.com/copperpeptide...tion.html#hair

Notice that in this article Hitzig's name is mentioned

----------


## DesperateOne

> Any suggestions to which derma roller to get?  An amazon link would be appreciated


 If you haven't ordered, this is the one that everyone including me are using. 
I recommend getting at least two because you might mess one up and you don't want to pay for shipping again. At  least, that's what I did.

http://amzn.to/175RbGD

----------


## DesperateOne

> Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;
> 
> *Skin wound healing and hair growth device*
> Inventors	Masahiro Ogasawara
> Applicant	Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.
> 
> http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en
> 
> Here's one of the results in their patent study:
> ...


 I think we might really be onto something there  :Smile: , I have a suspect that diffuse thinners are going to benefit the most because they're follicles are not completely dead, just my theory. 

It's freaking crazy that I had not heard about the dermaroller before, not just for hair loss.

----------


## hellouser

Found another patent document on wounding:




> The present invention relates to improved topical administration of one or more growth factors for non-surgical, cosmetic use. In particular, a combination of one or more growth factors with a microneedle roller. Specifically, the invention resides in a kit for cosmetic use comprising: one or more growth factors, growth factor mimetics, and/or growth factor receptor agonists formulated for topical application; and means to perform wounding of skin, such as a microneedle array, wherein the wounding is targeted to at least the epidermis and/or dermis of the skin to release endogenous thrombin into dermal and/or epidermal tissue.


 Source:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120116295

Whats really interesting is that I've come across quite a few articles that suggest growth using the wounding technique AND applying growth factors.. SIMILAR to the ones lilpauly has mentioned, which are also SIMILAR to the ones used by Histogen for HSC.

If this isn't exciting... I don't know what is. Dan26 will be trialing the growth factors from lilpauly AND wounding. I can't wait to see the results (if any).

----------


## LevonHelms

Thanks for all the research Hellouser, you're bringing a lot of great info to the thread! 
I'm cautiously hopeful that we've actually got something here.

----------


## HARIRI

> Found another patent document on wounding:
> 
> 
> 
> Source:
> http://www.google.com/patents/US20120116295
> 
> Whats really interesting is that I've come across quite a few articles that suggest growth using the wounding technique AND applying growth factors.. SIMILAR to the ones lilpauly has mentioned, which are also SIMILAR to the ones used by Histogen for HSC.
> 
> If this isn't exciting... I don't know what is. Dan26 will be trialing the growth factors from lilpauly AND wounding. I can't wait to see the results (if any).


 Interesting study, Pangaea laboratories is the main company producing Nanogen. I asked them already about that, they told me they were using their Nanogen 0.5mm titanium scalp roller along with their hair growth serum. Seems like 0.5mm is doing a good job too, thanks for the link Hellouser.  :Big Grin: 

Nanogen Pangaea laboratories told me as well that needles above 1mm are not recommended and could somehow hurt hair follicles badly and that safe for home use. They are producing three types now (0.3mm (Home use), 0.5mm (Home use) (one used in the study) and 1 mm (Medical use)). So the safe range is between 0.5 to 1mm I believe so. Look at more studies Guys, don't just depend on one only. That is my advice.

Additional advice: A lot of needle rollers in the market don't provide titanium needles but only a needle covered with metal film or called stainless steel. These will come off easily after few uses and may be harmful to human skin. Advantages of Titanium needles is that when you soak them in medical alcohol for sterilizing they wont become dark and they are less painful than steel ones.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

u need 1.5mm brah, dont be scurred  :Big Grin:

----------


## Chromeo

1.5mm is the way to go, I believe. No pain, no gain.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

there is a 3x2cm area 10 cm under my nipple where i got injured enough i could say while i was ioutsteping from the car by the doors window ....

it was like redish and blueish like when you get punched lol for at least a month now i am like a dog there , the area has hair, i can up a pic when i can(i dont have camera at the moment)

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

and that brothers tells me only one thing, at least for me


THE WOUNDS MAKE HAIR IT IS TRUE

----------


## 534623

> and that brothers tells me only one thing, at least for me
> 
> 
> THE WOUNDS MAKE HAIR IT IS TRUE


 Yeah, so I think you guys should visit Dr. Hannibal Lecter ...

http://www.allmystery.de/i/t0ac03b_h...g-brain.jpg?bc

He is the only doctor on this planet who found out the proper dermaroller deepness for hair follicle stimulation - and therefore hair regrowth.  :Smile:

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

lol thats 2 in one .smp and regrowth thanks we might drop by his meat market


> Yeah, so I think you guys should visit Dr. Hannibal Lecter ...
> 
> http://www.allmystery.de/i/t0ac03b_h...g-brain.jpg?bc
> 
> He is the only doctor on this planet who found out the proper dermaroller deepness for hair follicle stimulation - and therefore hair regrowth.

----------


## clandestine

So the majority of people are using 1.5mm? Not 1mm?

----------


## HARIRI

OK guys I will stop acting like a P***y and get the 1.5mm Titanium dermaroller. I will get this one:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/540-Micro-Ne...item3a71f7426a

Its 540 titanium needles and it will give better coverage than 192 needles. Any thoughts?

Your are right after all about the 1.5mm, no pain no gain. I hope it wont leave any scarring. I will use it on my non hair transplanted areas like midscalp and crown every Saturday before bedtime as mentioned before. How many minutes I should use it in one session? Any advice?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

5 to 10 min roll it until it becomes like somebody hitted you hard and see at least some blood drops


> OK guys I will stop acting like a P***y and get the 1.5mm Titanium dermaroller. I will get this one:-
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/540-Micro-Ne...item3a71f7426a
> 
> Its 540 titanium needles and it will give better coverage than 192 needles. Any thoughts?
> 
> Your are right after all about the 1.5mm, no pain no gain. I hope it wont leave any scarring. I will use it on my non hair transplanted areas like midscalp and crown every Saturday before bedtime as mentioned before. How many minutes I should use it in one session? Any advice?

----------


## Julian P

> OK guys I will stop acting like a P***y and get the 1.5mm Titanium dermaroller. I will get this one:-
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/540-Micro-Ne...item3a71f7426a
> 
> Its 540 titanium needles and it will give better coverage than 192 needles. Any thoughts?
> 
> Your are right after all about the 1.5mm, no pain no gain. I hope it wont leave any scarring. I will use it on my non hair transplanted areas like midscalp and crown every Saturday before bedtime as mentioned before. How many minutes I should use it in one session? Any advice?


 In the review on that owndoc's website posted earlier in this thread, they advice against 540needle dermarollers. They say that the needles look more like knives and could acutally damage the skin. Off course it's a commercial website, but they seem to know what they 're talking about.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

put it together here ----------


since they used 1.5mm 192 needls in the study why experiment further?

their results are miraculus,   we must do it like that if we get the same success then we can discuss further posibilities


...

i mean who knows what might happen in an other way, galea necrosis. more hairloss. many things that are creepy and scary,

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> There was a thread on another forum I saw where a guy had a tattoo removed from his arm using a laser. In the following weeks, thick terminal hair grew from this area, and not just one or two strands of hair, at least a dozen within the former tattoo area which looked to be about 2x2 inches in size.
> 
> 
> Photo:
> 
> 
> 
> Thread Source:
> 
> ...


 Laser caps and other types of laser therapy have shown some effectiveness in the treatment of hair loss. The laser caps are way too expensive IMO.  One of our patients built his own. I'm not recommending you do that though and I'm sure there are some risks involved in using laser light.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office

----------


## hellouser

> Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;
> 
> *Skin wound healing and hair growth device*
> Inventors	Masahiro Ogasawara
> Applicant	Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.
> 
> http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en
> 
> Here's one of the results in their patent study:
> ...


 These articles really need to be looked at by the community here. Also, and courtesy of Conpecia, he was able to remember a case from law school:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkins_v._McGee




> Hawkins' hand was scarred from contact with an electrical wire. He was approached by McGee, a doctor, about having the scars removed. McGee guaranteed to make the injured hand a "one hundred percent good hand". McGee used a technique of "skin grafting" that he was unfamiliar with and failed to remove the scars. Because McGee used skin from Hawkins's chest area, the graft caused the palm of Hawkins' hand to grow thick hair.


 The increasing evidence of wounding theory is starting to pile up....!!! Thanks for the article Conpecia  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

Found another thread on an acne forum that shows some interesting details on wounding/scarring/healing:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/top...aling/page-160

----------


## Axel

> I think we might really be onto something there , I have a suspect that diffuse thinners are going to benefit the most because they're follicles are not completely dead, just my theory. 
> 
> It's freaking crazy that I had not heard about the dermaroller before, not just for hair loss.


 We are talking about hair follicle neogenesis so I don't see why diffuse thinners (like me) could get more benefit then others... It is not about waking up existing follicles but create new ones.

----------


## Axel

> Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;
> 
> *Skin wound healing and hair growth device*
> Inventors	Masahiro Ogasawara
> Applicant	Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.
> 
> http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en
> 
> Here's one of the results in their patent study:
> ...


 
It seems to me Cots et al are testing the most promising vector: letting the body heal alopecia by itself. They just need to learn the level of wounding needed... 

I guess we'll be able to say EUREKA after 12 weeks of the dermarolling community trial

*Fingers crossed*

----------


## sosa56

> In the review on that owndoc's website posted earlier in this thread, they advice against 540needle dermarollers. They say that the needles look more like knives and could acutally damage the skin. Off course it's a commercial website, but they seem to know what they 're talking about.


 So what's the consensus then 540 or 192? You really think that 540 could be counterproductive? I've been using a 540 i think

----------


## hellouser

From PrincessRambo on Hair Loss Talk:

This is a nice picture from the latest Cotsarelis study:

http://scitechdaily.com/study-points...and-grow-hair/



Boy, that wound size looks HUUUGEEE, and notice the depth, it goes all the way to the derma papillas. What kind of device can create this "full thickness excision" they are thinking of, a scalpel maybe? I mean, in the patent they say it shouldn't hurt (or patient can receive a numbing cream), Man i need a 2.5mm vibrating roller that can shoot additional daggers at my scalp... I think .

I will be out for blood tonight with my 1.5mm roller in the mean time, WHO IS WITH ME? "THIS IS WHERE WE HOLD THEM, THIS IS WHERE WE FIGHT, THIS IS WHERE THEY DIE... SPARTANSSSS, READY YOUR BREAKFAST AND DRINK HEARTY."

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> From PrincessRambo on Hair Loss Talk:
> 
> This is a nice picture from the latest Cotsarelis study:
> 
> http://scitechdaily.com/study-points...and-grow-hair/
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, that wound size looks HUUUGEEE, and notice the depth, it goes all the way to the derma papillas. What kind of device can create this "full thickness excision" they are thinking of, a scalpel maybe? I mean, in the patent they say it shouldn't hurt (or patient can receive a numbing cream), Man i need a 2.5mm vibrating roller that can shoot additional daggers at my scalp... I think .
> ...


 I'm with you. First night tonight I will try the dermaroller. Just need a little advice if you don't mind, balding brother.

Before I use it, do I need to sterilise the roller straight from the packet before it's first use? 

And will it be enough to just prepare the scalp via shower & shampoo? 

Also after I use it, should I rinse my head again? And will olive oil be ok to apply as a post rolling ointment?

Would really appreciate some advice, I know it will be in this thread somewhere but it's become quite extensive!

Cheers

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

prepare the scalp with betadine and saline solution and sterilize that roller to be safe. i would suggest betadine afterwards too, for 24h nothing else


press it hard to get at least some blood drops and make it red,,,, it wont work otherwise

----------


## hellouser

> I'm with you. First night tonight I will try the dermaroller. Just need a little advice if you don't mind, balding brother.
> 
> Before I use it, do I need to sterilise the roller straight from the packet before it's first use? 
> 
> And will it be enough to just prepare the scalp via shower & shampoo? 
> 
> Also after I use it, should I rinse my head again? And will olive oil be ok to apply as a post rolling ointment?
> 
> Would really appreciate some advice, I know it will be in this thread somewhere but it's become quite extensive!
> ...


 Read Too Young To Retire's answer above mine, its spot on.

I don't use any ointments or betadine after on my scalp, i just leave it as is and go to bed. I clean the dermaroller with isopropanol (99&#37; alcohol, a disinfectant basically).

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> Read Too Young To Retire's answer above mine, its spot on.
> 
> I don't use any ointments or betadine after on my scalp, i just leave it as is and go to bed. I clean the dermaroller with isopropanol (99% alcohol, a disinfectant basically).


 Thanks for the answers chaps...

Slight issue, I have none of those things. Just rubbing alcohol in spray that I planned to clean that Dermaroller with. 

So would you advise against me trying it tonight with a clean head and a fresh roller?

Really want to start it tonight...

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

if you get infected then you are ****ed so dont do it yet bro


> Thanks for the answers chaps...
> 
> Slight issue, I have none of those things. Just rubbing alcohol in spray that I planned to clean that Dermaroller with. 
> 
> So would you advise against me trying it tonight with a clean head and a fresh roller?
> 
> Really want to start it tonight...

----------


## hellouser

> Thanks for the answers chaps...
> 
> Slight issue, I have none of those things. Just rubbing alcohol in spray that I planned to clean that Dermaroller with. 
> 
> So would you advise against me trying it tonight with a clean head and a fresh roller?
> 
> Really want to start it tonight...


 You should be fine to use it without cleaning it first, the company that makes it would get in a heap of shit if it sold infected rollers. But its always better to be safe. Rubbing alcohol should work to some degree. Why not just go to the pharmacy and buy some disinfectant alcohol? Its cheap, for my isopropanol i paid about $4.00 CAD for 500ml.

----------


## brunobald

Has anyone got some photos after/during rolling?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> From PrincessRambo on Hair Loss Talk:
> 
> This is a nice picture from the latest Cotsarelis study:
> 
> http://scitechdaily.com/study-points...and-grow-hair/
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, that wound size looks HUUUGEEE, and notice the depth, it goes all the way to the derma papillas. What kind of device can create this "full thickness excision" they are thinking of, a scalpel maybe? I mean, in the patent they say it shouldn't hurt (or patient can receive a numbing cream), Man i need a 2.5mm vibrating roller that can shoot additional daggers at my scalp... I think .
> ...


 I just sent that study to Dr. Cole.  How difficult can it be to overexpress the growth factor in men with MPB?

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
Cole Hair Transplant
Atlanta, GA
Phone 678-566-1011
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.

----------


## hellouser

> Has anyone got some photos after/during rolling?


 http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=176

That was my first time dermarolling. I'm ruling it out more or less as thats as much blood/wounding I was able to get. My next session was a little more rigorous and my third was significantly more. I have pics of my third session in my temple's corners. I'll post photos later on.

----------


## hellouser

> I just sent that study to Dr. Cole.  How difficult can it be to overexpress the growth factor in men with MPB?
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> Cole Hair Transplant
> 1045 Powers Place
> Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
> Phone 678-566-1011
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.


 Awesome! Thank you! Please let us know of the potential outcomes, will be VERY interesting to see what he has to say!  :Smile:

----------


## brunobald

Doesn't look too bad, prob hurts more than it looks though.  :Big Grin: 

1.5MM I guess you must be hitting the skull with the tips of the needles in some parts of the scalp? My scalp feels thinner than 1.5mm on the top.

----------


## DesperateOne

Okay so the question I want answered is this, what topical induces Fgf9? 
Is there anything else out there that people found?

----------


## hellouser

> Okay so the question I want answered is this, what topical induces Fgf9? 
> Is there anything else out there that people found?


 FGF-9 is a fibroblast growth factor. Its induced when wounding occurs. The premise is that applying minoxidil to the wounded area induces PGE2 levels which induces FGF-9, which SHOULD create new hair follicles. However, injecting more FGF-9, a synthetic compound I guess, could potentially increase the number of hair growth.

----------


## hellouser

One more related article: 

_Wounding enhances epidermal tumorigenesis by recruiting hair follicle keratinocytes_

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/4099.short?rss=1

----------


## Buy The Ticket

> You should be fine to use it without cleaning it first, the company that makes it would get in a heap of shit if it sold infected rollers. But its always better to be safe. Rubbing alcohol should work to some degree. Why not just go to the pharmacy and buy some disinfectant alcohol? Its cheap, for my isopropanol i paid about $4.00 CAD for 500ml.


 OK,just gave it a try as it's a fresh roller and I'll buy the solutions for next weeks session of pain.

I can't believe how painful this is!!!!! And there's no blood. Should there be?

----------


## chimera

> One more related article: 
> 
> _Wounding enhances epidermal tumorigenesis by recruiting hair follicle keratinocytes_
> 
> http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/4099.short?rss=1


 Isn't that like, very bad?

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Sup fellas...time to do some rolling. Promise no ex wife remarks but she can suck a wet very juicy fart. Keep the faith! I got fuzz everywhere. Just a matter of time. Tomorrow I was thinking about pulling out the grill little charcoal get it hot and scorching my whole head watcha think?
Ghost

----------


## goingquick

> If you haven't ordered, this is the one that everyone including me are using. 
> I recommend getting at least two because you might mess one up and you don't want to pay for shipping again. At  least, that's what I did.
> 
> http://amzn.to/175RbGD


 Ordered!  Thanks for the link

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Just finished a lot more blood this time. I think this is a good thing. Did my 1.5 then my .5. Then did my face with the .5. My nose pores are so much smaller. I have a age spot on my hand. Going to hit it now to see if it changes. Cheers fellas and princess Rambo.
Ghost
Remember guys what we do in life echoes in eternity!

----------


## Brock Landers

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/4099.short?rss=1

Yea, read this link again....wounding causes skin tumors and cancer?!  Hmmmm...

----------


## DesperateOne

> Just finished a lot more blood this time. I think this is a good thing. Did my 1.5 then my .5. Then did my face with the .5. My nose pores are so much smaller. I have a age spot on my hand. Going to hit it now to see if it changes. Cheers fellas and princess Rambo.
> Ghost
> Remember guys what we do in life echoes in eternity!


 I also have kinda big nose pores sometimes called orange skin, so this is making them smaller for you after how long of use?

I used the 1.5mm on my nose and holly shit, that is the most painful part I have done it at, I don't even think it's going in all the way and it hurts like hell. 

Also, I did it on my neck, but I am now worried that I might hit a vein, do you think this is possible?

----------


## DesperateOne

> You changed your post the same time I responded to what you originally said.
> 
> The point is that you cannot use a person who never had MPB as a useable example when talking about a possible treatment for MPB.


 You can consider washing your hair so it becomes thinner and then rolling it. 

Or you can always shave it and let it grow back in 3-4 months  :Big Grin:

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> I also have kinda big nose pores sometimes called orange skin, so this is making them smaller for you after how long of use?
> 
> I used the 1.5mm on my nose and holly shit, that is the most painful part I have done it at, I don't even think it's going in all the way and it hurts like hell. 
> 
> Also, I did it on my neck, but I am now worried that I might hit a vein, do you think this is possible?


 u need a 0.5mm for the face!

----------


## hellouser

> Doesn't look too bad, prob hurts more than it looks though. 
> 
> 1.5MM I guess you must be hitting the skull with the tips of the needles in some parts of the scalp? My scalp feels thinner than 1.5mm on the top.


 Here's my last dermarolling session from a couple days ago:



It's my right temple, as you can see I'm far more harsh on my skin now.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

hellouser i believe it will work on you, you only do temples?

----------


## hellouser

> hellouser i believe it will work on you, you only do temples?


 I'm wounding everywhere that I'm losing hair. At the moment I'm trying to focus on the hairline/temples. I do have something interesting to report:

At the lower end in the middle/front of my hairline, closer to my right temple, there are a few hairs starting to grow in VERY thick compared to all the others surrounding it. Oddly enough, most hair grows in thin around the hairline and THEN it gets thicker. But these new little bastards are coming in heavy, and I'm monitoring them closely... they just seem so out of place. However, this area I do recall being wounded more so than the other areas a week prior, I remember seeing a 2cm strip of blood around this part so perhaps the more severe wounding is giving birth to either new follicles or rejuvenating existing dormant follicles.

Within a couple weeks I should have a definitive answer as whether or not the temples I wound more severely a couple days ago will make a difference in new hair growth. If so, then obviously I'll continue this practice.

I raised an interesting point about certain upcoming and existing treatments; why is it that hair treatment usually rejuvenates in areas closer to where existing TERMINAL hair exists? Why is that a bald spot in the crown only gets slowly filled in but NEVER completely at once? This was the case for Aderans from the photos we saw. Also is the case for finasteride and minox. Notice how diffuse thinners respond so well to treatments, ALL of what they lose typically fills in since the hair is everywhere. I remember reading one of the articles I posted that mentioned something to the extent that when skin and follicles are disrupted through wounding, existing follicles emit cells for healing. Which is interesting to note the close proximity of hair SLOWLY creeping back to its original state when getting on fin, and potentially wounding, its almost as if you need existing hair to make a change. Of course, I'm only speculating but its something I've noticed over my time looking at treatments.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

nice point hell


advise-try to press hard and badly.. you need mild erythema, i can translate that in redish painfull skin plus the blood drops you already have  :Wink: 

take care let us know bro

----------


## sosa56

> I'm wounding everywhere that I'm losing hair. At the moment I'm trying to focus on the hairline/temples. I do have something interesting to report:
> 
> At the lower end in the middle/front of my hairline, closer to my right temple, there are a few hairs starting to grow in VERY thick compared to all the others surrounding it. Oddly enough, most hair grows in thin around the hairline and THEN it gets thicker. But these new little bastards are coming in heavy, and I'm monitoring them closely... they just seem so out of place. However, this area I do recall being wounded more so than the other areas a week prior, I remember seeing a 2cm strip of blood around this part so perhaps the more severe wounding is giving birth to either new follicles or rejuvenating existing dormant follicles.
> 
> Within a couple weeks I should have a definitive answer as whether or not the temples I wound more severely a couple days ago will make a difference in new hair growth. If so, then obviously I'll continue this practice.
> 
> I raised an interesting point about certain upcoming and existing treatments; why is it that hair treatment usually rejuvenates in areas closer to where existing TERMINAL hair exists? Why is that a bald spot in the crown only gets slowly filled in but NEVER completely at once? This was the case for Aderans from the photos we saw. Also is the case for finasteride and minox. Notice how diffuse thinners respond so well to treatments, ALL of what they lose typically fills in since the hair is everywhere. I remember reading one of the articles I posted that mentioned something to the extent that when skin and follicles are disrupted through wounding, existing follicles emit cells for healing. Which is interesting to note the close proximity of hair SLOWLY creeping back to its original state when getting on fin, and potentially wounding, its almost as if you need existing hair to make a change. Of course, I'm only speculating but its something I've noticed over my time looking at treatments.


 Please are you using 540 or 192 needle?

----------


## hellouser

> Please are you using 540 or 192 needle?


 192, I've mentioned this several times in this thread. You guys need to read the whole thread.

----------


## hellouser

> nice point hell
> 
> 
> advise-try to press hard and badly.. you need mild erythema, i can translate that in redish painfull skin plus the blood drops you already have 
> 
> take care let us know bro


 Actually, theres a small trick I did last time;

Sometimes the pain would be pretty bad, and I would tear up and want to sneeze, but most of the pain was coming from the actual rolling across the scalp while pressing down. Instead, I simply pressed down, moved the roller, pressed down again... repeat. Eventually you'll pierce through the skin. I'm not sure how this well translate into disrupted skin/follicles but for a final touch if you can't handle any more pain, its not a bad idea.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

sounds good.  hell why dont you up a pic with the new hair you noticed?  its early to tell yet, i am optomistic with you cause you seem to        do science          . your on roller and minox only right?


> Actually, theres a small trick I did last time;
> 
> Sometimes the pain would be pretty bad, and I would tear up and want to sneeze, but most of the pain was coming from the actual rolling across the scalp while pressing down. Instead, I simply pressed down, moved the roller, pressed down again... repeat. Eventually you'll pierce through the skin. I'm not sure how this well translate into disrupted skin/follicles but for a final touch if you can't handle any more pain, its not a bad idea.

----------


## brunobald

> Sometimes the pain would be pretty bad, and I would tear up and want to sneeze, but most of the pain was coming from the actual rolling across the scalp while pressing down. Instead, I simply pressed down, moved the roller, pressed down again... repeat. Eventually you'll pierce through the skin. I'm not sure how this well translate into disrupted skin/follicles but for a final touch if you can't handle any more pain, its not a bad idea.


 This make a lot of sence as the needles are not rotating through the skin to enter and exit. The big question is, do you need maximum disruption to the skin OR would a simple stabbing action; in and out suffice?

What about numbing the area with Ice before rolling?

----------


## HARIRI

Guys, I started using my Nanogen Titanium Scalp Roller 0.5mm because the seller doesnt accept refunds. All what I can say is that it hurts and irritates sometimes. I dont think I could handle 1.5mm for God sake. Hellouser, you are really brave. I will just keep using it everyday as instructed in the leaflet. Maybe it will do something, better than nothing. Actually they mentioned in their website that 

The Scalproller has 4 innovative modes of action to enhance any hair treatment regimen:

1. Increases Topical Treatment Absorption

Scalproller pre-treatment has been shown to increase absorption of topical treatments by 5 times or more. With Scalproller pre-treatment, lower 2&#37; concentrations of a topical treatment solution will give concentrations in the scalp higher than when using 5% solutions on untreated skin. Similarly, 5% solutions will produce higher concentrations in the scalp than 12.5% solutions or suspensions used on untreated skin. Frontal scalp areas are notoriously difficult to treat topically, most probably due to lack of absorption. Therefore topical treatments are only really effective in treating vertex hair loss. Using Nanogen's Scalproller can dramatically increase absorption of topical treatments in these regions, opening up new potential areas for topical treatments to act on.

2. Heals Donor Scars

Hair transplant surgery commonly leaves scars in the donor region; Nanogen's Scalproller has been proven to fade and reduce the appearance of these scars by breaking up scar tissue structures and formations. Plus there is evidence in animal models to show that new hair may grow to conceal the donor area after Scalproller treatment.

3. Activates PRP Treatment

Platelet Rich Plasma or PRP therapy is a cutting edge development in hair loss treatment. PRP has been shown to produce thicker transplanted hair growth, and possibly even thicken non-transplanted hair. In PRP therapy, the platelet and growth factor rich fraction of the patient's blood is re-injected into them, and then growth is activated by repeated needle insertion. Single needle insertion is irregular, time consuming and often painful. Scalproller treatment produces much more reliable, regular needle insertions in less time, and with less pain.

4. Encourages New Hair Growth

The latest research by Intercytex, performed with Dr. Bessam Farjo as principal investigator, has shown that patients receiving superficial injections and controlled wounding grow new hair, which may solely be a result of the controlled skin wounding itself. This surprising result is correlated by the pioneering work published by Dr. George Cotsarelis of Pennsylvania University, who found that stimulation of the Wnt protein by wounding leads to hair regeneration. Wounding by microneedles would potentially start this Wnt protein mediated growth stimulation, and prevent synthesis of TGF-β2, a protein known to induce hair loss.

Scalproller treatment increases topical treatment penetration and may independently promote new hair growth.

Here is the Q & A

What is a Scalproller? 
Nanogen's Scalproller is a treatment previously only available through Trichologists or Dermatologists. The 0.3mm & 0.5mm models have now made this treatment available for use at home. It is a cylindrical barrel with precision engineered titanium microneedles which penetrate the top layers of skin without causing damage or bleeding. This accurate and non-intrusive penetration allows much higher absorption of scalp treatments like Serum VEGF. It may also stimulate scalp healing and hair growth by itself as it can stimulate the scalp's healing response.

How will Nanogen's Scalproller Work? 
As you roll the roller over your scalp it penetrates the upper layers of skin. By opening the skin in this way you dramatically increase the penetration of any topical growth product, increasing its efficacy. These perforations also stimulate the scalp's healing mechanisms, increasing production of many important factors for a healthy scalp.

Can I use the Scalproller more than once a day? 
At first, the Scalproller is designed to be used once daily, and is far more intensive than any skin roller, using more than once daily may be possible after time, depending on the individual. If used more than once a day initially the Scalproller may cause more irritation than is aimed for, and even cause damage.

When using the Scalproller do I roll over each part of my scalp only once? 
At first, use a single motion once over each area of scalp, rolling gently forward from the crown. This produces a controlled amount of irritation and avoids tangling the roller in longer hair. After time, individual users may prefer to roll in multiple directions.

Which needle length Scalproller should I use? 
Nanogen's genuine Scalproller is available in 2 versions for home use. The 0.3mm version is recommended for patients with very thin hair or pain sensitive skin. A 0.5mm home version is available to ensure penetration even with thicker hair.

Will the Scalproller mark my scalp, cause redness, or cause pain or bleeding? 
When used as directed, the Scalproller will only cause small or no marks, and the marks will fade in under a minute. Scalproller treatment may cause a flush to your scalp that will fade in a few hours, but no long-lasting redness. The Scalprollers made available for home use have sharp, durable titanium needles that do not cause appreciable pain or bleeding.

Do I use Nanogen's Scalproller over my whole scalp, or just the thinning area? 
As the main aim of the Scalproller is to help topical hair loss treatments penetrate, you should use the Scalproller everywhere that you will apply your topical treatment. However using it elsewhere will certainly not do any harm.

Is this the same as other Skin or Derma Rollers? 
No. Other skin rollers have different needle lengths, and are designed to be used for different purposes. Some claim they will work on Hair Loss, but Nanogen's Scalproller is the first specially designed for use on the scalp and for use every day. No other skin roller is made from unique titanium needles, so only the Scalproller can be reused intensively for 3-6 months.

Can I use a topical solution with the Scalproller? 
Yes, the Scalproller is designed to be used with topical treatments to increase their efficacy, you should still follow the guidelines on your topical treatments for their application.

When do I use a topical solution with the Scalproller? 
You use the Scalproller first, to increase the penetration of the treatment, then the topical treatment. You should still follow the guidelines on your topical treatments for their application.

I use more than one topical solution, which should I apply first? 
The same as you did before you used the Scalproller, you should still follow the guidelines on your topical treatments for their application.

How long will the Scalproller last for? 
Even when used daily, due to its unique durable titanium microneedles Nanogen's Scalproller can last from 3-6 months.

How do I know when to replace my Scalproller? 
There will be no visible signs of the sharpness deteriorating. After 3 months, if you begin to notice any increase in pain or inflammation while using the Scalproller, this is a sign the needles are becoming less sharp, and you need to replace it. After 6 months you should replace your Scalproller, even if you have not noticed a difference in pain or inflammation.

Is Nanogen's Scalproller Guaranteed to Work? 
Like all Nanogen products, the Scalproller is manufactured and quality controlled to exacting standards. Unfortunately, due to regulations on handling of biological material, we cannot accept returns of a used Scalproller and so cannot refund the product.


Here is the link:-

http://www.nanogenaustralia.com/prod...roductid=16165

----------


## NeedHairASAP

this has been around awhile. Dont you think somebody would have reported results (not neccessarily a forum member).



Also, if laser tattoo removal caused hair growth, dont you think somebody would have tried an experiment with it?


if not, experiments for both could easily be crowdfunded cheap.

----------


## Chromeo

> this has been around awhile. Dont you think somebody would have reported results (not neccessarily a forum member).


 I've been dermarolling on and off since last November and have noticed a degree of regrowth. I just put it down to enhanced absorption of topicals, not to wounding. I wasn't aware of the wounding concept.




> Also, if laser tattoo removal caused hair growth, dont you think somebody would have tried an experiment with it?


 Not necessarily. It's taken this long to even get a study published on microneedling, even though the wounding concept has seemingly been around for years. Unfortunately we all know how slowly things seem to move in the world of hairloss treatments.

----------


## chimera

> Also, if laser tattoo removal caused hair growth, dont you think somebody would have tried an experiment with it?


 As hellouser showed us, somebody already tried and experimented with laser:




> http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

1.early result week first hair is growing faster

an interesting point to expect from the study  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Tracy C

> ...somebody already tried and experimented with laser:


 I found that post very interesting because I have been using LLLT since November of 2007 myself.

I will not be changing my current regimen.  I will only be adding dermarolling to my current regimen to see if doing so can improve upon what is already working for me.  My regimen would not be applicable to you guys but for the ladies, here is my current regimen:

Spironolactone taken orally twice a day.

Minoxidil twice a day (foam in the AM, generic liquid in the PM).

Laser comb every other day.

Nizoral once a week.

My regular shampoo/conditioner is Aveeno "Pure Renewal" sulfate free shampoo and conditioner.

My vitamins are Nature's Bounty extra strength "Hair, Skin & Nails" multi-vitamin and vitamin D3.  Both taken twice a day with meals.

I will be using the dermaroller once a week on Sunday nights.  I will be prepping the area prior to dermarolling with Betadine and applying a very thin layer of Neosporin on the area afterwards.  I will not be using Minoxidil on Sunday night and Monday morning.  I will resume using Minoxidil on Monday evening.

----------


## win200

> These articles really need to be looked at by the community here. Also, and courtesy of Conpecia, he was able to remember a case from law school:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkins_v._McGee
> 
> 
> 
> The increasing evidence of wounding theory is starting to pile up....!!! Thanks for the article Conpecia


 Oh, man, law school flashback... Hawkins is a hugely famous case that's taught as part of every tort curriculum.  We always called it the "hairy hand case."

----------


## brunobald

What do you guys and girls think of this idea. I have started a mind map for Diy wounding for hair growth on mind42.com. This is a mind map we can all edit to try and organise our ideas and resources. To edit the mind map you need me to add your email you signed up to mind42.com with to the specific mind map we are working on.

We could use this to keep track of wounding devices, links to science papers, specfic compounds that might work as growth promoters, where we might find this?

Its just an idea and there may be a better way of arranging the data we find but we def need something better than a massive thread on a single forum.

http://mind42.com/public/831fd9a5-7d...5-cca45a37b0b3

----------


## hellouser

> What do you guys and girls think of this idea. I have started a mind map for Diy wounding for hair growth on mind42.com. This is a mind map we can all edit to try and organise our ideas and resources. To edit the mind map you need me to add your email you signed up to mind42.com with to the specific mind map we are working on.
> 
> We could use this to keep track of wounding devices, links to science papers, specfic compounds that might work as growth promoters, where we might find this?
> 
> Its just an idea and there may be a better way of arranging the data we find but we def need something better than a massive thread on a single forum.
> 
> http://mind42.com/public/831fd9a5-7d...5-cca45a37b0b3


 COOL!!

Now if only my message to Winston about unlocking private messaging was actually taken seriously, we could exchange emails privately. Eventhough I did mention integrity in regards to allowing the community come together an WORK together, this forum, despite its potential, is GIMPED.

See if you can private message me on Hair Loss Talk, my username there is also 'hellouser'

Thanks!  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

Found another article:

Wound healing




> Wounds develop when the epidermal layer of skin is breached by injury or infection and the severity increases when the underlying layers of skin become involved.  Three steps need to occur for wounds to heal normally: inflammation, proliferation and remodeling. Inflammation lasts approximately four days. In that time the key events that happen are the generation of a fibrin matrix and the formation of a blood clot to cover and protect the wound. Immune cells, such as macrophages, also migrate into the area to clean up any cellular debris and to help prevent infections from taking hold. During the proliferation phase, inflammatory signals recruit many different cell types to the wound, including fibroblasts and vascular endothelial cells. Fibroblasts make collagen and can also turn into myofibroblasts that close the wound, and vascular endothelial cells form new blood vessels around the wound. All this cellular activity makes what is called a ‘granulation tissue’ that is located just below the blood clot. *Keratinocytes then migrate to the wound from the wound edges and also from the base of hair follicles.* The dividing keratinocytes move over the granulation tissue to knit the epidermis together. This process continues during the remodeling phase and once the epidermis is restored, keratinocytes and fibroblasts lay down the matrix proteins for the new basement membrane that regenerates the interface between the epidermis and the underlying dermis.


 Understanding the role of stem cells in wound healing




> Stem cells are known to play an important role during the normal course of events that distinguish skin regeneration and wound healing. The skin is home to many different types of stem cells, including epidermal stem cells, melanocyte stem cells (which make pigment-producing cells), and epithelial and mesenchymal stem cells that reside in hair follicles. Together, these stem cells are responsible for making the multitude of different skin cells that are important for perpetually renewing normal, healthy skin. In response to general injuries the number of circulating stem cells in the body increase. *Hair follicle stem cells and epithelial stem cells are thought to interact with bone marrow stem cells, which are recruited to a wound during the inflammatory phase of wound healing*, and together these stem cells bring about speedy wound closure and tissue repair. As yet, it is not clear whether stem cells from the bone marrow might also contribute to the healing process by actually making new skin cells.


 


> *Freda Miller at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto* is well known for having discovered skin-derived precursors (SKPs). These are *adult dermal stem cells* that not only repair wounded skin but also prevent skin from aging and *promote hair growth*. She and her team are actively searching out drugs, small molecules and genes that can ramp up the activity of SKPs. The idea being that if they can increase the number of SKPs, they might be able to enhance skin repair and maintenance, especially as abnormal wound healing and premature aging have been linked with low levels of SKPs.


 The parts in bold are intriguing.

Source: http://www.stemcellnetwork.ca/index....healing&hl=eng

 I might actually try and reach out to Freda Miller as she's in Toronto. Here's some of her research in regards to hair follicles: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19951689

----------


## hellouser

Some other worthwhile studies to read:

Dr. Jahoda's paper on '*Changes in hair growth characteristics following the wounding of vibrissa follicles in the hooded rat*' From 1984

Source: http://dev.biologists.org/content/83/1/81.full.pdf

*Wnt-dependent de novo hair follicle regeneration in adult mouse skin after wounding*

Source: http://www.scopus.com/record/display...8cE7qwvy6w%3a2

*Specific MicroRNAs Are Preferentially Expressed by Skin Stem Cells To Balance Self-Renewal and Early Lineage Commitment*

Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...34590911000154

----------


## john2399

Has anyone seen any results yet? im on 3 weeks and nothing so far. I guess it takes 6 weeks ?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

if you perform it as the study you should see that hair is growing faster but yes i guess you might be close to seeing results but not yet. hang in there


> Has anyone seen any results yet? im on 3 weeks and nothing so far. I guess it takes 6 weeks ?

----------


## StayThick

> Has anyone seen any results yet? im on 3 weeks and nothing so far. I guess it takes 6 weeks ?


 Guys, I really do not want to be negative, but I hope those that are trying this "experiment" really don't put all their chips on the table.

I'm not saying you won't experience some sort of possible result, but for somebody who has been doing this for several months, I really would hate for those people to have such big expectations only to be let down once again.

Keep an open mind, but also aware of the fact this may not do anything at all. Like anything else, just give it a try and see what happens

I'm still doing it, but it hasn't done much of anything in 3 months. I'm now drawing blood (never have before) to see if I gain better results.

----------


## the_dude78

> Guys, I really do not want to be negative, but I hope those that are trying this "experiment" really don't put all their chips on the table.
> 
> I'm not saying you won't experience some sort of possible result, but for somebody who has been doing this for several months, I really would hate for those people to have such big expectations only to be let down once again.
> 
> *Keep an open mind, but also aware of the fact this may not do anything at all. Like anything else, just give it a try and see what happens*
> 
> I'm still doing it, but it hasn't done much of anything in 3 months. I'm now drawing blood (never have before) to see if I gain better results.


 Yes, exactly! I was skeptical when I read the study, but I admit it can be difficult to maintain the skepticism with all the excitement people show in this thread, so very good advice.

Had my second session tonight  - a lot more blood this time.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

you roll deep and apply minox like in the study confitions? how old are you and when you became bald?are you completely bald where you perform it?


> Guys, I really do not want to be negative, but I hope those that are trying this "experiment" really don't put all their chips on the table.
> 
> I'm not saying you won't experience some sort of possible result, but for somebody who has been doing this for several months, I really would hate for those people to have such big expectations only to be let down once again.
> 
> Keep an open mind, but also aware of the fact this may not do anything at all. Like anything else, just give it a try and see what happens
> 
> I'm still doing it, but it hasn't done much of anything in 3 months. I'm now drawing blood (never have before) to see if I gain better results.

----------


## DesperateOne

3 weeks is nothing, I think we should wait for at least 3 months. This study is getting out of control, people are demanding results before any significant time has been out. 

I have noticed that my second time didn't hurt so much as my first. I think it's because my skin got a bit ticker, I don't know.

----------


## walrus

Still getting a pretty intense itching sensation on my scalp starting about 5 minutes after I roll, lasting for around 20 minutes. Not that bothersome, but curious how it only happens on scalp and not skin anywhere else I've tried it.

----------


## john2399

well didnt that study say that in 6 weeks they saw results?

----------


## StayThick

> you roll deep and apply minox like in the study confitions? how old are you and when you became bald?are you completely bald where you perform it?


 I have applied Minox after rolling in the past, I now apply
Minox prior than wait a few hours because I don't want the added absorption due to Minox sides.

I'm 27 and I'm not bald. I started thinning in my hairline at 19 and very slowly it got worse, which soon progressed to general thinning throughout my scalp. Which is where I'm at today.

I am dermarolling on the corners of my hairline which is kinda bald, but does have some peach fuzz and terminal hair still remaining. It's like the hair is dying but not done 100% and not yet out for the count. It's hanging on the ropes that's why I am doing everything I can before I lose these hairs forever.

----------


## the_dude78

Is this only about creating new follicles, or will it, in theory, also strengthen the existing weak follicles?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i believe most the second, the first is the cotsarelis findings but for the first you really need hi tech wounding etc,factors etc .correct timing etc. so stick to the second according to the study...   :Wink: 


> Is this only about creating new follicles, or will it, in theory, also strengthen the existing weak follicles?

----------


## walrus

> Is this only about creating new follicles, or will it, in theory, also strengthen the existing weak follicles?


 From my understanding, both.

----------


## medion1

> Here's my last dermarolling session from a couple days ago:


 I am NW5 and am taking part in this rolling experiment, but this picture is getting me a bit concerned. 

Is anyone else worried that the results to this experiment could be ruined by a bunch of paranoid guys who are rolling their forehead/temples and claiming that it hasn't "regrown" any hair, when there was NONE THERE to begin with.

Just a thought...

----------


## the_dude78

> I am NW5 and am taking part in this rolling experiment, but this picture is getting me a bit concerned. 
> 
> Is anyone else worried that the results to this experiment could be ruined by a bunch of paranoid guys who are rolling their forehead/temples and claiming that it hasn't "regrown" any hair, when there was NONE THERE to begin with.
> 
> Just a thought...


 I think I remember seeing pictures of this guy's hair and he does in fact have mpb, receding hairline and general thinning. But you are right, this place is full of paranoid guys.


EDIT: Here's one of his other threads with pics.. http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=12390

----------


## the_dude78

> From my understanding, both.


 I hope this is so. I still have very fine, thin hairs where my hairline used to be, so I'm hoping for the miracle.

----------


## Tracy C

> I am NW5 and am taking part in this rolling experiment, but this picture is getting me a bit concerned.


 According to the methodology described in the pilot study, you are not supposed to cause bleeding.  Just redness over the area.






> Is anyone else worried that the results to this experiment could be ruined by a bunch of paranoid guys...


 Not really cause that could be said of any treatment so I expect it, especially from an on-line forum that is full of paranoid young guys with minimal hair loss and maximum mental issues.  Taking good quality (and consistent) photos every four to six months is really the only way to determine if a treatment is working for you or not.

----------


## HARIRI

> According to the methodology described in the pilot study, you are not supposed to cause bleeding.  Just redness over the area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really cause that could be said of any treatment so I expect it, especially from an on-line forum that is full of paranoid young guys with minimal hair loss and maximum mental issues.  Taking good quality (and consistent) photos every four to six months is really the only way to determine if a treatment is working for you or not.


 In this case then 1.5mm should not be used because it will cause bleeding for sure because its beyond the epidermis layer. Better to use the 0.5mm and not more than 1mm as it wont cause any bleeding but only mild redness.

----------


## walrus

> In this case then 1.5mm should not be used cause it will cause bleeding for sure. Better to use the 0.5mm and not more than 1mm as it wont cause any bleeding but only mild redness.


 I think that it could actually be variable depending on the part of your head. I feel 0.5 works fine on my temples, but for rest where I have hair, >1mm might be more effective.

----------


## chimera

> In this case then 1.5mm should not be used because it will cause bleeding for sure because its beyond the epidermis layer. Better to use the 0.5mm and not more than 1mm as it wont cause any bleeding but only mild redness.


 
The study just says "mild erythema", but at the same time it says 1.5 mm.

----------


## Chromeo

> The study just says "mild erythema", but at the same time it says 1.5 mm.


 Exactly. Anyone using the 1.5 mm will experience some degree of bleeding, I would think. I used a 0.5 mm roller for months on and off, and it only very rarely drew blood. The 1.5 mm roller I purchased a few weeks back causes bleeding every time I use it.

----------


## chimera

Dermaroller has been used for ages as a hairloss treatment, but it has never gave the kind of results the study we're following suggest. 1.5 mm has always been considered an extreme lenght for the scalp, and as such, it has almost never been used seriously.

Maybe the reason nobody has ever saw this kind of result is because nobody wanted to go that deep before. And maybe, we like it or not, we have to go this deep if we want those results.

----------


## the_dude78

> Dermaroller has been used for ages as a hairloss treatment, but it has never gave the kind of results the study we're following suggest. 1.5 mm has always been considered an extreme lenght for the scalp, and as such, it has almost never been used seriously.
> 
> Maybe the reason nobody has ever saw this kind of result is because nobody wanted to go that deep before. And maybe, we like it or not, we have to go this deep if we want those results.


 And also people have mostly been using it every day to increase absorption, and not letting the wound healing process take place at all.

----------


## Chromeo

> Dermaroller has been used for ages as a hairloss treatment, but it has never gave the kind of results the study we're following suggest. 1.5 mm has always been considered an extreme lenght for the scalp, and as such, it has almost never been used seriously.
> 
> Maybe the reason nobody has ever saw this kind of result is because nobody wanted to go that deep before. And maybe, we like it or not, we have to go this deep if we want those results.


 Totally agree with this. The whole reason I purchased a 0.5 mm roller back in the day was because 0.5 mm was the length they suggested for the purpose of enhancing topical absorption. I imagine the majority of others were given the same advice and would be using 0.5 mm needles instead of 1.5 mm. We really need to try 1.5 mm needles for a sustained period to see what happens. I am reasonably optimistic.

----------


## Buster

> I am NW5 and am taking part in this rolling experiment, but this picture is getting me a bit concerned. 
> 
> Is anyone else worried that the results to this experiment could be ruined by a bunch of paranoid guys who are rolling their forehead/temples and claiming that it hasn't "regrown" any hair, when there was NONE THERE to begin with.
> 
> Just a thought...


 But you didn't wake up one day to realize you were a NW5, did you? We are trying to recover the hair we have already lost, as well as prevent it from going any further. And add to that the diffuse hair loss sufferers. If we all waited until we were NW5 to do something about our hair loss the majority of us would be out of luck.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

We all here are passionate. The wounding cycle is needed for new hairs. I think 10 days is better and will conform to that after 12 weeks. To say wounding causes tumors or aka cancer. If we did this everyday then I would say yes. You disrupt any cycle over and over then the cycle can change to negative. 
Ghost

----------


## chimera

This is a pic from the cotsarelis study:



You wound deep enough, and new follicles get formed (of course noone of us has the means to go that deep, but it shows that we really need to make harm).

Anyway, right now there's this crazy dudes called squeegee and princessrambo on *** who say are going to try 2.5 mm. We should stick to 1.5 mm, but we should also see how 2.5 goes for them.

----------


## chimera

well here's the ****ing pic 

http://postimg.org/image/6kssklpj9/

----------


## chimera

> I imagine the majority of others were given the same advice and would be using 0.5 mm needles instead of 1.5 mm.


 Yeah man. In fact, if you try to buy a dermaroller right now for hair loss, everywhere you look you wiil find that they say 0.5 mm. Some may say 0.75, others may even say 1.0. but that's rare, and it never goes beyond that.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

I wonder why you dont see regeneration in typical fue, if wounding is the key.

I assume its the extent of the wound.

----------


## walrus

> I wonder why you dont see regeneration in typical fue, if wounding is the key.
> 
> I assume its the extent of the wound.


 The theory is that it has to be weekly, not just a one off event.

----------


## Borealis

I have to say, conservatively that I am seeing definite results. Existing hair is without a shadow of a doubt, noticably thicker and there is definite regrowth. 

It's very promising, but just so, so painful :'(

----------


## clandestine

> I have to say, conservatively that I am seeing definite results. Existing hair is without a shadow of a doubt, noticably thicker and there is definite regrowth. 
> 
> It's very promising, but just so, so painful :'(


 1.5mm roller, or other?

Also, pictures?

----------


## Borealis

Yeah, 1.5mm. Just finished my 5th session, time flies eh!?

I will take pictures at the end of the 12 weeks as it's quite hard to notice a difference as my hair isn't buzzed. (I have baselines)

----------


## clandestine

> Yeah, 1.5mm. Just finished my 5th session, time flies eh!?
> 
> I will take pictures at the end of the 12 weeks as it's quite hard to notice a difference as my hair isn't buzzed. (I have baselines)


 Okay great. And you're using in conjunction with minox, correct? Rolling once a week I imagine?

And sure, re: pictures. Make some to take some initially, for baseline, or now if you haven't already.

Good luck.

----------


## Borealis

I'm using with Minox, except within 24 hours after rolling. Rolling once a week.

I took some baseline photos before my first session.

----------


## hellouser

What's interesting is this:

Apparently Follica is working on a wounding device, so perhaps a Dermaroller isn't the best solution and as said before by others is just a poor mans solution. I'm fine with that as long as there is growth.

Dr. Cotsarelis also jokingly said a few years ago in an interview about the wounding theory that this doesn't mean people should go out and use a cheese grater on their scalp. Which is funny because it kind of sounds like he's hinting that that is the kind of wounding necessary without destroying existing follicles.

Also, there was mention that wounding and hair growth does increase with current known compounds. But what is that compound? As mentioned in his later papers, Minoxidil was used with wounding to create new follicles. We know that elevated levels of PGE2 induce FGF-9. 

*- Does anyone have any source that says Minoxidil induces PGE2 FOR SURE?
- Does anyone know of any substance that specifically induced FGF-9 levels?*

There are a couple members on other forums which are about to go BALLS OUT with wounding: 2-3mm dermarollers and more needles (one even mentioned 1080 needles).

----------


## Hair87

Can any one tell how much time should we wait after dermarolling session to shampoo the scalp?

----------


## walrus

> Can any one tell how much time should we wait after dermarolling session to shampoo the scalp?


 I've seen recommendations to wash your hair before you roll, this will also soften the skin.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

if you increase skin elasticity with water it wont be wounded that much, the main goal is to injury the skin  :Smile: 


> I've seen recommendations to wash your hair before you roll, this will also soften the skin.

----------


## hellouser

> if you increase skin elasticity with water it wont be wounded that much, the main goal is to injury the skin


 I was thinking the same thing, that softening the skin may not actually PIERCE it.

I just dermaroll on dry skin now.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

If study said you dont need to cause bleeding, why are people trying to draw blood?

----------


## hellouser

> If study said you dont need to cause bleeding, why are people trying to draw blood?


 Because at 1.5mm, if youre actually dermarolling thorough, 1.5mm *will* draw blood.

Cotsarelis' study does suggest that deeper wounding may be necessary, so perhaps 1.5mm isn't enough. It is a start though.

----------


## StayThick

Hellouser: Keep us posted on your results. It looks like you and I are targeting the same area of the hairline. I'm seeing little sprouts of hair personally, but far to early to see if this will turn terminal.

Hoping I can recover some ground along the hairline. That would be a game changer for me.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

remember all the key is to wound the cells.

to injury the area. to make the cells get the signal of healing and promote these important stuff for hair follicles ...


so if yo dont hit hard its not a try

----------


## greatjob!

I just got my roller today, gonna roll for the first time tonight. Man I hope this can increase my density even just a little bit.

----------


## clandestine

Can someone please clarify here.

On the Dr. Roller website, for one derma roller it says: *Dr Roller (Lasts approximately 3 months each)*.

One derma roller only lasts for 3 months? I really don't understand.
Would it be better to order from Nanogen, Amazon?

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

can this be done if you're not using minox? what else could it be used in conjunction with? i'm only on fin

----------


## luca10

&#191;cleaned with water after dermarolling head?

traductor sorry

----------


## bigentries

> Can someone please clarify here.
> 
> On the Dr. Roller website, for one derma roller it says: *Dr Roller (Lasts approximately 3 months each)*.
> 
> One derma roller only lasts for 3 months? I really don't understand.
> Would it be better to order from Nanogen, Amazon?


 The needles get dull after a while, but that happens to any needle. I don't know if the titanium dermarollers are really better

----------


## Tracy C

> Can any one tell how much time should we wait after dermarolling session to shampoo the scalp?


 I plan to follow the pilot study as closely as I possibly can and wash before I use the dermaroller.  It would suppose that there is no problem with washing afterwards if you want to.  When treating any other wound one of the first things you need to do is wash the wound.  Wounds from dermarolling would not be any different.






> can this be done if you're not using minox? what else could it be used in conjunction with? i'm only on fin


 If you plan to follow the pilot study as closely as possible with the hope of achieving similar results, you would need to use Minoxidil.  You can alter your methodology all you want, just don't expect similar results if you do.

----------


## john2399

> can this be done if you're not using minox? what else could it be used in conjunction with? i'm only on fin


 Im not using minox either, i do use nizoral tho. The study has nothing to do with minox absorption tho, as its all about wounding. We should be fine and hopefully we see results.

----------


## chimera

> &#191;cleaned with water after dermarolling head?
> 
> traductor sorry


 
Hey Luca10, I can see english gives you a little trouble, if you need to know anything about this thread you can ask me on recuperarelpelo. I'm soma_72!

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

nooooooooooooooooooo no no no no stop and restart it now. it is not about minox absortion BUT 

minox property elevating pgd2 while the wound heals.


please do it correctly, we dont know that ketoconazole 2% does the same


> Im not using minox either, i do use nizoral tho. The study has nothing to do with minox absorption tho, as its all about wounding. We should be fine and hopefully we see results.

----------


## Tracy C

> please do it correctly...


 Hahaha  No one is required to do it "correctly".  Those who deviate from the methodology of the pilot study simply should not expect similar results as achieved in the pilot study.  Folks can do whatever they want so long as they know not to expect similar results.

----------


## hellouser

> Hahaha  No one is required to do it "correctly".  Those who deviate from the methodology of the pilot study simply should not expect similar results as achieved in the pilot study.  Folks can do whatever they want so long as they know not to expect similar results.


 Actually, suggesting NOT to deviate slightly from the study is equally damaging.

If we all follow like ducks to the study than we're all destined to more or less get the same results. If some deviate more than others, we can collect data that opens up a variety of results. Wouldn't it be nice to know for sure what DOESNT work and experiment further until we find a WORKING solution?

I've been thinking of dermabrasian, essentially stripping the top layer of skin, kind of like running sand paper over it until it bleeds and applying any or all necessary topicals to induce FGF-9 for hair growth. Noones tried this approach yet, but WHAT IF it happened to be the right approach?

----------


## hellouser

More proof of wounding/healing causing hair growth:

http://www.consultant360.com/content...ic-hair-growth

This guy got a sever sunburn and then grew a bunch of back hair:

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

thats sooo  just so



and he didnt apply minox i am sure , just imagine the possibilities on the scalp.

we might be talking of a cure here .RELEASED already and so cheap.


hows your rolls going hell?

----------


## hellouser

> thats sooo  just so
> 
> 
> 
> and he didnt apply minox i am sure , just imagine the possibilities on the scalp.
> 
> we might be talking of a cure here .RELEASED already and so cheap.
> 
> 
> hows your rolls going hell?


 Rolling is going fine, not seeing any growth yet other than the couple small hairs around the hairline, but its only a few. I'll be dermarolling again in a couple of days. However, I should mention that looking at my tracking for my shipment of CB, its supposed to have arrived TODAY as it says it was shipped successfully  :Smile: 

So, I should be moving onto the bigger guns tonight: Minoxidil & CB-03-01! I can't wait  :Smile:

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> More proof of wounding/healing causing hair growth:
> 
> http://www.consultant360.com/content...ic-hair-growth
> 
> This guy got a sever sunburn and then grew a bunch of back hair:


 According to Sharon A. Keene MD, identical twin studies indicate that sunburn is bad for hair growth on the scalp.  I had a few bad sunburns when I was younger and ended up with Actinic Keratosis and had to use 5 fluorouracil, an anti-cancer topical to get rid of it.  Please!!!! don't you guys sunburn your scalp.  Some sun exposure is good, but be careful and avoid sunburn!!!

 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office

----------


## hellouser

> According to Sharon A. Keene MD, identical twin studies indicate that sunburn is bad for hair growth on the scalp.  I had a few bad sunburns when I was younger and ended up with Actinic Keratosis and had to use 5 fluorouracil, an anti-cancer topical to get rid of it.  Please!!!! don't you guys sunburn your scalp.  Some sun exposure is good, but be careful and avoid sunburn!!!
> 
>  35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> Cole Hair Transplant
> 1045 Powers Place
> Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
> Phone 678-566-1011
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.


 Oh I'm not suggesting we go into a tanning salon and barbecue our heads or get blasted with UV rays from the sun, I'm only posting the info as evidence to back up the wounding theory.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> Can someone please clarify here.
> 
> On the Dr. Roller website, for one derma roller it says: *Dr Roller (Lasts approximately 3 months each)*.
> 
> One derma roller only lasts for 3 months? I really don't understand.
> Would it be better to order from Nanogen, Amazon?


 I am wondering this same thing. Does it last for 3 months if its used daily or weekly? 


I want to get a dermaroller but if they cost $40 every 3 months then im not so sure.

----------


## chimera

Dude, in ebay you can find dermarollers for like  $9 or so.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> Dude, in ebay you can find dermarollers for like  $9 or so.


 what if some jackass decided to sell a used one? I don't trust ebay on buying shiet like this or technology lol

----------


## john2399

> nooooooooooooooooooo no no no no stop and restart it now. it is not about minox absortion BUT 
> 
> minox property elevating pgd2 while the wound heals.
> 
> 
> please do it correctly, we dont know that ketoconazole 2% does the same


 Arent you the one that said i dont use minox? So i guess your back on it for the study?

----------


## bigentries

> what if some jackass decided to sell a used one? I don't trust ebay on buying shiet like this or technology lol


 Doubtful, since they come packed and supposedly "sterilized"

I'm sterilizing mine first in boiling water, then dipping it in alcohol, and then letting it sit for 20 minutes in a betadine solution

----------


## clandestine

> Doubtful, since they come packed and supposedly "sterilized"
> 
> I'm sterilizing mine first in boiling water, then dipping it in alcohol, and then letting it sit for 20 minutes in a betadine solution


 Where do you buy betadine?

Also, I remember it mentioning betadine and saline(?) or something?

----------


## bigentries

> Where do you buy betadine?
> 
> Also, I remember it mentioning betadine and saline(?) or something?


 I guess they use saline solution because it is sold sterile, it is sometimes used to wash wounds

Betadine is povidone-iodine, as far as I know most solutions are sold over the counter

----------


## clandestine

> I guess they use saline solution because it is sold sterile, it is sometimes used to wash wounds
> 
> Betadine is povidone-iodine, as far as I know most solutions are sold over the counter


 Okay, thanks bigentries.

I ordered 1.5mm derma roller today, and will be starting Minox when it arrives in a couple weeks.

----------


## Tracy C

> I am wondering this same thing. Does it last for 3 months if its used daily or weekly?


 When the needles are dull, it's time to get a new one.  Maybe it's about three months if it is used daily - maybe a lot longer if it's used weekly.  I am betting the three months is based on daily use since Dr. Roller's instructions are to use it daily.






> I want to get a dermaroller but if they cost $40 every 3 months then im not so sure.


 I bought a generic one from Amazon.com.  It was somewhere around $10.00 (US) with shipping give or take a few bucks.






> what if some jerk decided to sell a used one? I don't trust ebay on buying stuff like this or technology lol


 Don't blame you there.  I would not risk buying a used one either.






> Where do you buy betadine?


 It is inexpensive and readily available anywhere and everywhere bandages and other first aid supplies are sold.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> I bought a generic one from Amazon.com.  It was somewhere around $10.00 (US) with shipping give or take a few bucks.


 do you have the link???

----------


## Tracy C

> do you have the link???


 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CPJBUS0/..._M3T1_ST1_dp_1

----------


## brooks1089

I have relatively long hair with loss at the temples. I plan to target my temples, but was wondering if it would be beneficial to roll over my existing hair for future maintenance/added thickness? Basically, can you roll over scalp that isn't bald? Thanks guys and good luck!

----------


## hellouser

I've been reading more about the dermarolling method in regards to the wounding theory from follica, I think theres a lot more to explore but I think it NEEDS to be pointed out that we're very, VERY close to finally cracking it. We just need to keep pushing experimentation with wounding of all sorts of devices. Dermarolling with some wounding with 1.5mm microneedles most likely wont get us anywhere near NW0 but it should help. I think we need to wound more. One member on another forum pointed out this:




> For Follica style wounding you need a wound that is deep enough to remove the epidermis and reach the dermis. It has to large enough so that it can't close on itself. The skin faces a decision, *"Do I become a follicle or do I become skin?"*. By promoting the correct molecular signals, the idea is that we can push the intrafollicular epithelial stem cells (Not HF bulge cells btw). Two are known to upregulate this process - Wnt and FGF9.


 Which is more or less what mitosis is: cell splitting, but not actually splitting cells in half, but the cells actually replicate themselves. If you cut yourself, cells in your skin should multiply to cover up the damaged area. But here's the problem: we're not doing enough of that at the follicle level!! All we're doing is making small little pricks. I've got a feeling that we need to TRICK our body into making it think it needs to create skin *AND* follicles. Those follicles will probably only replicate where existing terminal hairs are, going back to my observation that hair regrowth always happens in areas closer to existing follicles as those follicles that produce terminal hairs can emit split cells that can replicate their own hair. Which perhaps its why a bald spot is NEVER filled in completely on any treatment, but only tightened up.

I'm sure whatever growth factors we throw at the wounded area will help this, for example the growth factors lilpauly has mentioned from Kane, but safety is key. I'm going to watch *very closely* what happens with the guys trialing this... this could be some SERIOUS SHIT finally.

This is kind of, KIND OF more exciting than Aderans news before they got their funding pulled.

----------


## Tracy C

> Basically, can you roll over scalp that isn't bald?


 That's what I plan to do and I'm a girl so I have long hair.  I was concerned about my hair tangling up in the roller but I think I have a solution.  I can't try it out till my roller arrives though.

Look up how wigs are made on Youtube.  See how the wig maker puts plastic wrap on her head.  That should work to keep hair from getting tangled up in the roller.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxWs79J4pUY

----------


## gainspotter

So from what other just completed my first roll, it is very uncomfortable, especially at the temples, but I don't care about that.
From what I've been reading it sounds as though we do need to roll firmly to wound deep enough so the cells can repair. This must mean no blood is not good enough.

----------


## hellouser

> So from what other just completed my first roll, it is very uncomfortable, especially at the temples, but I don't care about that.
> From what I've been reading it sounds as though we do need to roll firmly to wound deep enough so the cells can repair. This must mean no blood is not good enough.


 Yup, mitosis at the follicular level doesn't happen and therefor, no hair. Perhaps elevated levels of WNT may stimulate growth but not to the degree we would ideally want (full NW7 to NW0).

Time will tell  :Smile:

----------


## Tracy C

> This must mean no blood is not good enough.


 Just a reminder that the methodology in the pilot study was to roll firm enough to achieve mild erythema.  Erythema is defined as abnormal redness of the skin due to capillary congestion.  It does not mean to break through the skin enough to cause bleeding.  Just say'in...

----------


## fred970

Thanks for the reminder Tracy. I said this on another forum: how long before someone really injures himself or get an infection?

We must remain cautious. We should try to reproduce the study. Who knows? Maybe the study is flawed and it will do absolutely nothing. Just some healthy scepticism here.

----------


## mmmcoffee

Guess we will know soon enough...12 weeks is a short time to notice results. How long have people been rolling for?

----------


## hellouser

> Guess we will know soon enough...12 weeks is a short time to notice results. How long have people been rolling for?


 I've been just under 3 weeks, with my first session being moot (barely any blood, not much noticeable erythema). So basically, under 2 weeks. Gonna be dermarolling either today or tomorrow.

----------


## mmmcoffee

We appreciate all your efforts. I'm personally waiting for the green light from some of you guys before starting to dermaroll

----------


## sosa56

> Just a reminder that the methodology in the pilot study was to roll firm enough to achieve mild erythema.  Erythema is defined as abnormal redness of the skin due to capillary congestion.  It does not mean to break through the skin enough to cause bleeding.  Just say'in...


 Yeah but look at this video with an MD doing the rolling (sure it's already been posted) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuXJbqDlNug

OK so he's doing it to increase growth factor absorption but you see he doesn't look as if he's putting that much pressure on and blood is still appearing and he's only using a 1.0mm roller.

Didn't hellouser say though at the beginning of the thread "You will be given detailed instructions on how to use the dermaroller including how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller according to one of the researchers on the study who has been contacted."?

----------


## hellouser

> Yeah but look at this video with an MD doing the rolling (sure it's already been posted) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuXJbqDlNug
> 
> OK so he's doing it to increase growth factor absorption but you see he doesn't look as if he's putting that much pressure on and blood is still appearing and he's only using a 1.0mm roller.
> 
> Didn't hellouser say though at the beginning of the thread "You will be given detailed instructions on how to use the dermaroller including how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller according to one of the researchers on the study who has been contacted."?


 I think the dermaroller trial is just a precursor to the final be-all and end-all treatment: Follica and neogenesis through deep wounding. After dermarolling is done and over with in 12 weeks, I'm moving onto the wounding theory and going to try and replicate their process as close as possible.

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

is everyone still rolling once a week? I rolled every Sunday for the first 3 weeks, but for my 4th session I will roll today instead of this past Sunday and will have given myself an extra 2 days to heal. I thought there was some discussion(maybe another forum) that once a week might be a little too fast and more healing might be needed before rolling again?

----------


## hellouser

> is everyone still rolling once a week? I rolled every Sunday for the first 3 weeks, but I will roll today and will have given myself an extra 2 days to heal. I thought there was some discussion(maybe another forum) that once a week might be a little too fast and more healing might be needed before rolling again?


 Personally, I don't think theres much 'healing' left after 7 days when all youve done is created mild erythema or even some small specks of blood here and there. We're microneedling so its not a full out wound. Wounds take much longer than 7 days to heal, but I know for sure that my anatomy is crazy, I heal really fast so basically any and all damage I've done thus far with my current approach ALWAYS 'heals' basically the next day.

Its not even so much the wounding that generates any potential follicle, its the HEALING process through mitosis and cell splitting when all the required growth factors are induced by your own body. In a normal wound this happens days after the damage to the tissue, and from Follica's graphs, we see that FGF-9 levels induced hair growth 14 days after damage to the wound... I'm fairly certain the wounds must have been fairly large in comparison to the indian dermarolling study with minoxidil, even the graphs shown by cotsarelis indicate a wound deep enough that gets down to the follicle, which is basically where dermabrasion comes in, stripping away of the top layer of skin.

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

this past rolling session, i went a little harder than the first 2 times and I definitely felt like my scalp was inflammed/itchy for 3-4 days. I guess thats more than anything is why I decided to wait before rolling again. Hair lookin like crap...  :Frown:

----------


## hellouser

> this past rolling session, i went a little harder than the first 2 times and I definitely felt like my scalp was inflammed/itchy for 3-4 days. I guess thats more than anything is why I decided to wait before rolling again. Hair lookin like crap...


 Are you shedding more since dermarolling?

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

hard to say for sure, but yeah I think so. But at the same time, I've been losing ground extremely fast the past 6months, so more than likely its just the continuation of that.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Oh I'm not suggesting we go into a tanning salon and barbecue our heads or get blasted with UV rays from the sun, I'm only posting the info as evidence to back up the wounding theory.


 In the most recent edition of Hair Transplant Forum International (a doctor to doctor publication)  Nicole E. Rogers, MD summarized a Japanese study that indicates vitamin D3 significantly enhances hair folliculogenesis.  She believes that D3 may play an important role in the eventual cloning and regeneration of hair follicles.  So some sun is good.

I used to work with a young guy in his mid-twenties who most likely inherited MPB from his mother's father.  He is so paranoid about losing his hair that he won't use shampoo and never runs a comb through his hair.  You appear to be of the opposite mindset.  I personally believe massage, shampoo, hair brushing and micro needling are good for hair growth.  I'm going to ask Dr. Cole about a variation of micro needling over the top of ACell gel and possibly PRP.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
www.forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## DesperateOne

> Personally, I don't think theres much 'healing' left after 7 days when all youve done is created mild erythema or even some small specks of blood here and there. We're microneedling so its not a full out wound. Wounds take much longer than 7 days to heal, but I know for sure that my anatomy is crazy, I heal really fast so basically any and all damage I've done thus far with my current approach ALWAYS 'heals' basically the next day.
> 
> Its not even so much the wounding that generates any potential follicle, its the HEALING process through mitosis and cell splitting when all the required growth factors are induced by your own body. In a normal wound this happens days after the damage to the tissue, and from Follica's graphs, we see that FGF-9 levels induced hair growth 14 days after damage to the wound... I'm fairly certain the wounds must have been fairly large in comparison to the indian dermarolling study with minoxidil, even the graphs shown by cotsarelis indicate a wound deep enough that gets down to the follicle, which is basically where dermabrasion comes in, stripping away of the top layer of skin.


 So would you say we would need at least a 2.0mm or a 2.5mm?

----------


## hellouser

> So would you say we would need at least a 2.0mm or a 2.5mm?


 Not yet, there's one individual on *** that will be using a 2.5mm dermaroller. We'll see what kind of results he gets, if any.

----------


## hellouser

> In the most recent edition of Hair Transplant Forum International (a doctor to doctor publication)  Nicole E. Rogers, MD summarized a Japanese study that indicates vitamin D3 significantly enhances hair folliculogenesis.  She believes that D3 may play an important role in the eventual cloning and regeneration of hair follicles.  So some sun is good.
> 
> I used to work with a young guy in his mid-twenties who most likely inherited MPB from his mother's father.  He is so paranoid about losing his hair that he won't use shampoo and never runs a comb through his hair.  You appear to be of the opposite mindset.  I personally believe massage, shampoo, hair brushing and micro needling are good for hair growth.  I'm going to ask Dr. Cole about a variation of micro needling over the top of ACell gel and possibly PRP.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> www.forhair.com
> Cole Hair Transplant
> 1045 Powers Place
> Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
> ...


 How would vitamin D3 be applied? Orally or topically? I suppose topically, no?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> How would vitamin D3 be applied? Orally or topically? I suppose topically, no?


 Vitamin D is not one, but many chemicals. The natural type is created in the skin from a universally present form of cholesterol, 7-dehydrocholesterol. Sunlight's is the key. Ultraviolet B (UVB) energy converts the precursor to vitamin D3. Contrast that to most dietary supplements that are manufactured by exposing a plant sterol to ultraviolet energy, that produces vitamin D2. Because their function is nearly identical, D2 and D3 are lumped together and simply called vitamin D.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
www.forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## hellouser

> Vitamin D is not one, but many chemicals. The natural type is created in the skin from a universally present form of cholesterol, 7-dehydrocholesterol. Sunlight's is the key. Ultraviolet B (UVB) energy converts the precursor to vitamin D3. Contrast that to most dietary supplements that are manufactured by exposing a plant sterol to ultraviolet energy, that produces vitamin D2. Because their function is nearly identical, D2 and D3 are lumped together and simply called vitamin D.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> www.forhair.com
> Cole Hair Transplant
> 1045 Powers Place
> Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
> Phone 678-566-1011
> email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck


 Perhaps wounding + sun tanning could give SOME kind of benefits?

----------


## Conpecia

FINALLY got my god damn dermaroller!!! looks like i'm a bit behind but better late than never... i'm going to be replicating the study to the T: mild redness with some blood, minox 6 days a week. However, i'll also be on Dut and Regenepure! So hopefully this will give me major regrowth and will prevent further loss!!!

----------


## hellouser

> FINALLY got my god damn dermaroller!!! looks like i'm a bit behind but better late than never... i'm going to be replicating the study to the T: mild redness with some blood, minox 6 days a week. However, i'll also be on Dut and Regenepure! So hopefully this will give me major regrowth and will prevent further loss!!!


 Good luck dude! Hopefully we all get results!  :Smile:

----------


## brunobald

> Perhaps wounding + sun tanning could give SOME kind of benefits?


 Why not combine both in a handy six hour sun bed session.  :Big Grin:

----------


## hellouser

> Why not combine both in a handy six hour sun bed session.


 LOL, that would probably fry the hell out of my skin.

----------


## the_dude78

So if this stimulates the weaker follicles as well, shouldn't we see less shedding relatively early on, maybe within 3-5 weeks? Any thoughts?

----------


## hellouser

> So if this stimulates the weaker follicles as well, shouldn't we see less shedding relatively early on, maybe within 3-5 weeks? Any thoughts?


 Doubt it, if anything, probably more. Just like Minox typically causes a shed when PGE2 levels are elevated, dermarolling should have a similar effect. Although noone has said anything about shedding except me though its most likely due to me getting off of RU and going through a summer minoxidil shed. Joy.

----------


## StayThick

> How would vitamin D3 be applied? Orally or topically? I suppose topically, no?


 The past 2 weeks I have applied 10,000 IU of Vitamin D3 with MSM topically to the hairline. 

I will apply it to the hairline occasionally after a dermarolling session as well. I am not sure if the Minox, dermarolling, or D3 is the culprit, but I am seeing dark brown terminal sprouts in areas of my hairline that have not seen hair in quite some time.

Im getting excited, but I need much more of this to somewhat fill the loss in these areas. I'm feeling optimistic.

----------


## hellouser

> The past 2 weeks I have applied 10,000 IU of Vitamin D3 with MSM topically to the hairline. 
> 
> I will apply it to the hairline occasionally after a dermarolling session as well. I am not sure if the Minox, dermarolling, or D3 is the culprit, but I am seeing dark brown terminal sprouts in areas of my hairline that have not seen hair in quite some time.
> 
> Im getting excited, but I need much more of this to somewhat fill the loss in these areas. I'm feeling optimistic.


 Try going to a tanning salon a couple times after a dermarolling session. Maybe it could help?

----------


## Conpecia

Ok, after my first rolling experience: 

either i have a superhuman tolerance for pain or i'm not doing it right. rolled for a good 3 minutes along the hairline in various directions, had the velcro sound going full effect, several spots of blood and mild redness. maybe my nerves are just not that sensitive up there, but i've got at least 50 bloodspots from pricks and the pain was at most a 3.5-4 of 10. not trying to sound like a badass, just want to make sure i did it right. should i have rolled longer? deeper?

----------


## StayThick

> Try going to a tanning salon a couple times after a dermarolling session. Maybe it could help?


 I have actually been outside the past 3 weekends soaking in tons of sun. I'm literally dark as all hell right now. And yes I do believe vitamin D in the form of the sun's rays has a positive effect on hair.

----------


## StayThick

> Ok, after my first rolling experience: 
> 
> either i have a superhuman tolerance for pain or i'm not doing it right. rolled for a good 3 minutes along the hairline in various directions, had the velcro sound going full effect, several spots of blood and mild redness. maybe my nerves are just not that sensitive up there, but i've got at least 50 bloodspots from pricks and the pain was at most a 3.5-4 of 10. not trying to sound like a badass, just want to make sure i did it right. should i have rolled longer? deeper?


 Sounds like you are doing it correct. Maybe the skin in the areas of application are not as thin as others.

I do draw blood now, but it is definitely painful. I have to close my eyes at times and bite on a towel. It's that unpleasant for me, especially along the hairline which is the most painful.

I sneeze and eyes still water.

----------


## hellouser

> Ok, after my first rolling experience: 
> 
> either i have a superhuman tolerance for pain or i'm not doing it right. rolled for a good 3 minutes along the hairline in various directions, had the velcro sound going full effect, several spots of blood and mild redness. maybe my nerves are just not that sensitive up there, but i've got at least 50 bloodspots from pricks and the pain was at most a 3.5-4 of 10. not trying to sound like a badass, just want to make sure i did it right. should i have rolled longer? deeper?


 How hard are you pressing against your skin? I pressed quite hard to make sure it was piercing ALL the way in at 1.5mm. I didn't have loads of blood, but enough spots.

This is what I did to my right temple:



However, that was done after several rolls over the area and pressing just hard enough to pierce all the way through.

----------


## Conpecia

my whole area looks the way your frontal hairline looks, those sparse amounts of blood, but not like higher up.

----------


## LevonHelms

> Perhaps wounding + sun tanning could give SOME kind of benefits?


 I'll let you know if does. I own a tanning salon, so it'll be pretty easy for me to throw some tanning sessions in the mix.  :Big Grin: 

Shedding seems to have decreased in the past couple weeks for me, but I switched from Nizoral 2% weekly to Regenepure daily at about the same time so who knows. And I'm keeping a close eye on some vellus and a few terminal hairs that seem to have doubled in length all of a sudden.

----------


## hellouser

> I'll let you know if does. I own a tanning salon, so it'll be pretty easy for me to throw some tanning sessions in the mix. 
> 
> Shedding seems to have decreased in the past couple weeks for me, but I switched from Nizoral 2% weekly to Regenepure daily at about the same time so who knows. And I'm keeping a close eye on some vellus and a few terminal hairs that seem to have doubled in length all of a sudden.


 Thanks man! I go to a tanning salon occasionally as well so I might hit the bed after a dermarolling session, perhaps go and sit for about 10-14 minutes (I don't like going for longer as it can increase chances of cancer of course, so I keep it moderate).

----------


## Brock Landers

Hellhouser,

Around 3-4 years ago, this guy named Baccy over on on the Hair Site forum tried to replicate the follica experiments,  He even provided pictures and everything.  I remember in the beginning he was getting a lot of stubble, don't remember what happened in the end, i think it kind of tailed off.

One of the threads can be found if you go to that site and type in "Folica experimenting" and scroll to the bottom of search results.  I definitely suggest you read up on what he did, might be useful for your experiements.   About that time too, a lot of guys on that site were trying dermarolling too, nothing spectacular happened....

Brock

----------


## Brock Landers

35 years,

Since you work in a HT clinic, would you be able to inquire as to any risks of long term damage by eitiher normal microneedling or excessive microneedling.  Is there a chance that we could be scarring, or if not scarring our skin, making it thicker such that it would harm results of a future transplant in the recepient area?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat

Introduction: Dermal papilla (DP) is the site of expression of various hair growth related genes. Various researches have demonstrated the underlying importance of Wnt proteins and wound growth factors in stimulating DP associated stem cells. Microneedling works by stimulation of stem cells and inducing activation of growth factors. Materials and Methods: Hundred cases of mild to moderate (III vertex or IV) androgenetic alopecia (AGA) were recruited into 2 groups. After randomization one group was offered weekly microneedling treatment with twice daily 5% minoxidil lotion (Microneedling group); other group was given only 5% minoxidil lotion. After baseline global photographs, the scalp were shaved off to ensure equal length of hair shaft in all. Hair count was done in 1 cm 2 targeted fixed area (marked with tattoo) at baseline and at end of therapy (week 12). The 3 primary efficacy parameters assessed were: Change from baseline hair count at 12 weeks, patient assessment of hair growth at 12 weeks, and investigator assessment of hair growth at 12 weeks. A blinded investigators evaluated global photographic response. The response was assessed by 7- point scale. Results: (1) Hair counts - The mean change in hair count at week 12 was significantly greater for the Microneedling group compared to the Minoxidil group (91.4 vs 22.2 respectively). (2) Investigator evaluation - Forty patients in Microneedling group had +2 to +3 response on 7-point visual analogue scale, while none showed the same response in the Minoxidil group. (3) Patient evaluation - In the Microneedling group, 41 (82%) patients reported more than 50% improvement versus only 2 (4.5%) patients in the Minoxidil group. Unsatisfied patients to conventional therapy for AGA got good response with Microneedling treatment. Conclusion: Dermaroller along with Minoxidil treated group was statistically superior to Minoxidil treated group in promoting hair growth in men with AGA for all 3 primary efficacy measures of hair growth. Microneedling is a safe and a promising tool in hair stimulation and also is useful to treat hair loss refractory to Minoxidil therapy.

----------


## DesperateOne

Well today I did another pass of derma roller and I have to say that it was freaking painful as hell. I can feel the trauma setting in, like my head is pounding. The thing is that it got super red but no blood came out, I don't know what that says about me. Also, I where I noticed that when I rolled, I felt a lot of pain but I didn't really feel like it was going all the way in. What I then decided to do was to do it the long way, to put it in one place and press on it until I felt it went all the way in, and that does feel like it is doing much more. The only problem is that it took me like 30 minutes to do my head because I am a defuse thinner and so I had to press all my head. So in conclusion, I think it's more effective to just press and let the thing go all the way in and make sure, but you do have to put in more time regardless if you're a defuse thinner or not. 

I also decided to take a little sunlight, I always wear a hat(that's the only way I feel kinda normal) and was socking up some vitamin D  :Smile:

----------


## DesperateOne

UPDATE: I think this will help a lot of guys out, I found a way that it seems reduce the pain a lot, by at least half. So when we're rolling or wounding, we usually just focus on the procedure, so that immediately boosts the pain. I think it's kinda like when you're eating lunch and if you actually pay attention to the taste, you will savor your lunch, if you just talk and eat, well then you will not taste much. So what I did was, I got a picture of a girl I like, and stared at it while wounding with my other hand. I wear on my life that it made it super less painful, to the point to where it was almost not noticeable. Anyways, it doesn't have to be a girl, but I suppose that with sex on your mind should reduce the pain the most. Good luck everyone.

----------


## LevonHelms

I prefer vodka, but whatever works :Wink:

----------


## greatjob!

> UPDATE: I think this will help a lot of guys out, I found a way that it seems reduce the pain a lot, by at least half. So when we're rolling or wounding, we usually just focus on the procedure, so that immediately boosts the pain. I think it's kinda like when you're eating lunch and if you actually pay attention to the taste, you will savor your lunch, if you just talk and eat, well then you will not taste much. So what I did was, I got a picture of a girl I like, and stared at it while wounding with my other hand. I wear on my life that it made it super less painful, to the point to where it was almost not noticeable. Anyways, it doesn't have to be a girl, but I suppose that with sex on your mind should reduce the pain the most. Good luck everyone.


 OMFG!! This is so wrong!!

----------


## the_dude78

> Hellhouser,
> 
> Around 3-4 years ago, this guy named Baccy over on on the Hair Site forum tried to replicate the follica experiments,  He even provided pictures and everything.  I remember in the beginning he was getting a lot of stubble, don't remember what happened in the end, i think it kind of tailed off.
> 
> One of the threads can be found if you go to that site and type in "Folica experimenting" and scroll to the bottom of search results.  I definitely suggest you read up on what he did, might be useful for your experiements.   About that time too, a lot of guys on that site were trying dermarolling too, nothing spectacular happened....
> 
> Brock


 
http://www.*************/hair-loss/f...-id-37248.html

Well, that was not very encouraging at all.. Does anybody know if he continuously wounded the area or was it just a one time thing? Seems like he only did it once.

----------


## the_dude78

> UPDATE: I think this will help a lot of guys out, I found a way that it seems reduce the pain a lot, by at least half. So when we're rolling or wounding, we usually just focus on the procedure, so that immediately boosts the pain. I think it's kinda like when you're eating lunch and if you actually pay attention to the taste, you will savor your lunch, if you just talk and eat, well then you will not taste much. So what I did was, I got a picture of a girl I like, and stared at it while wounding with my other hand. I wear on my life that it made it super less painful, to the point to where it was almost not noticeable. Anyways, it doesn't have to be a girl, but I suppose that with sex on your mind should reduce the pain the most. Good luck everyone.


 Okay...so that was a little weird..

I use a .5 mm roller first, I feel it helps to numb the scalp a little bit before I use the 1.5 mm

----------


## the_dude78

> Doubt it, if anything, probably more. Just like Minox typically causes a shed when PGE2 levels are elevated, dermarolling should have a similar effect. Although noone has said anything about shedding except me though its most likely due to me getting off of RU and going through a summer minoxidil shed. Joy.


 Yes, makes sense, but if they saw beginning of new hair growth already around the 6th week, I'm thinking it would also make sense that the weaker follicles would become stronger and keep growing the hair rather than just shedding the hair.  If we shed the hair first, like we do on minox, I'm guessing it would take longer than 6 weeks for the hair to grow out again - more like ten to twelve weeks.

But it could also be that the cycle of the follicles has been accelerated, so that the dormant phase just simply is much shorter, and in the study the hair did grow noticeably faster the first week after rolling...so who knows..

----------


## 35YrsAfter

Copper peptides are something else to consider...

They're naturally occurring small protein fragments that have high affinity to copper ions. In human plasma, the level of GHK-Cu is about 200 ng/ml at around age 20. As a person approaches 60, the level drops to 80 ng/ml. Studies conducted at different research facilities have established in humans, tripeptide GHK-Cu can promote activation of wound healing, attraction of immune cells, antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects, stimulation of collagen and glycosaminoglycan synthesis in skin fibroblasts and promotion of blood vessels growth. Recent studies also indicate its ability to modulate expression of a great number of human genes, generally reversing gene expression to a healthier state. Synthetic GHK-Cu is used in cosmetics as a reparative and anti-aging ingredient.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
www.forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## DanWS

> So what I did was, I got a picture of a girl I like, and stared at it while wounding with my other hand.


 Sounds like a scene from a dark comedy. Or possibly a Stephen King.

----------


## Chromeo

Sounds pretty funny if you ask me. At least that other hand was busy wounding and not doing something else...  :Embarrassment:

----------


## StayThick

> UPDATE: I think this will help a lot of guys out, I found a way that it seems reduce the pain a lot, by at least half. So when we're rolling or wounding, we usually just focus on the procedure, so that immediately boosts the pain. I think it's kinda like when you're eating lunch and if you actually pay attention to the taste, you will savor your lunch, if you just talk and eat, well then you will not taste much. So what I did was, I got a picture of a girl I like, and stared at it while wounding with my other hand. I wear on my life that it made it super less painful, to the point to where it was almost not noticeable. Anyways, it doesn't have to be a girl, but I suppose that with sex on your mind should reduce the pain the most. Good luck everyone.


 I don't know if I want to laugh or be concerned that we have a pedophile on our hands....

Dude that's one of the weirdest comments I have ever seen on an online forum. I don't even want to know what you do with your "photo's" in your spare time.

Sweet god that was creepy.

----------


## Borealis

So is anyone seeing any results?

----------


## LevonHelms

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/291...est-beat-o.gif

----------


## greatjob!

> UPDATE: I think this will help a lot of guys out, I found a way that it seems reduce the pain a lot, by at least half. So when we're rolling or wounding, we usually just focus on the procedure, so that immediately boosts the pain. I think it's kinda like when you're eating lunch and if you actually pay attention to the taste, you will savor your lunch, if you just talk and eat, well then you will not taste much. So what I did was, I got a picture of a girl I like, and stared at it while wounding with my other hand. I wear on my life that it made it super less painful, to the point to where it was almost not noticeable. Anyways, it doesn't have to be a girl, but I suppose that with sex on your mind should reduce the pain the most. Good luck everyone.

----------


## ragsta

I have noticed a 3 hairs starting to grow thick solid black. Although i cannot be sure if its just because i'm looking closer. I have hope. I do have a 0.5x1cm patch on the back of my head just below the balding area which i have derma rolled as well. If it grows here wow. I have done 3 sessions all over the top now with the last being the harshest looking similar to hellousers picture. Raising my eye brows the next day i could feel the scalp pain. 48 hrs later its gone though. I'm using a 1.5mm roller with 540 pins and minox once a day, not applied on day of rolling. Also i was lazy with minox for the last month and the hair doesn't seem to have gone any thinner. 

The next few weeks will be very telling.

----------


## Tracy C

> Thanks for the reminder Tracy. I said this on another forum: how long before someone really injures himself or get an infection?
> 
> We must remain cautious. *We should try to reproduce the study*. Who knows? Maybe the study is flawed and it will do absolutely nothing. Just some healthy scepticism here.


 This is very important.  In science, if the results of a study are going to be "tested", the first thing to do is try to reproduce the results using the exact same methodology.  If similar results are observed while using the exact same methodology, then it is time to experiment with the methodology to see if the results can be improved upon.

I am unable to reproduce the exact same methodology but I plan to match it as closely as possible - and drawing blood is not on the agenda.

----------


## lilpauly

hi tracy look at this:

In this study, we demonstrate the feasibility to use microneedle arrays manufactured from commercially available 30G hypodermal needles to enhance the transport of compounds up to a molecular weight of 72 kDa.

Piercing of human dermatomed skin with microneedle arrays was studied by Trypan Blue staining on the SC side of the skin and transepidermal water loss measurements (TEWL). Passive transport studies were conducted with Cascade Blue (CB, Mw 538), DextranCascade Blue (DCB, Mw 10 kDa), and FITC coupled Dextran (FITC-Dex, Mw 72 kDa). Microneedle arrays with needle lengths of 900, 700 and 550 μm are able to pierce dermatomed human skin as evident from (a) the appearance of blue spots on the dermal side of the skin after Trypan Blue treatment and (b) elevated TEWL levels after piercing compared to non-treated human dermatomed skin. Microneedles with a length of 300 μm did not pierce human skin in vitro. Transport studies performed with model compounds ranging from 538 Da to 72 kDa revealed that pretreatment with microneedle arrays enhanced the transport across dermatomed human skin. However, some degradation was also observed for FITC-Dex and DCB. We conclude that assembled microneedle arrays can be used to deliver compounds through the skin up to a molecular weight of at least 72 kDa.

----------


## Tracy C

> hi tracy look at this:


 One pilot study at a time.  I only have one head to work with.  LOL

----------


## DesperateOne

> I don't know if I want to laugh or be concerned that we have a pedophile on our hands....
> 
> Dude that's one of the weirdest comments I have ever seen on an online forum. I don't even want to know what you do with your "photo's" in your spare time.
> 
> Sweet god that was creepy.


 haha, I can see why this would be creepy, well I should rephrase that, it is a woman, not a girl. Anyways, I was just sitting on computer doing the rolling and I have a picture, I was just day dreaming about her. Anyways, the point was to do something else while doing the rolling to take the pain off your mind. Since most guys are already thinking about sex and girls 90% of the time, I figured this would be a no brainer, I guess I was wrong  :Big Grin: .

----------


## DesperateOne

> I have noticed a 3 hairs starting to grow thick solid black. Although i cannot be sure if its just because i'm looking closer. I have hope. I do have a 0.5x1cm patch on the back of my head just below the balding area which i have derma rolled as well. If it grows here wow. I have done 3 sessions all over the top now with the last being the harshest looking similar to hellousers picture. Raising my eye brows the next day i could feel the scalp pain. 48 hrs later its gone though. I'm using a 1.5mm roller with 540 pins and minox once a day, not applied on day of rolling. Also i was lazy with minox for the last month and the hair doesn't seem to have gone any thinner. 
> 
> The next few weeks will be very telling.


 So you're a diffuse thinner or a regular receding hairline? Are you rolling or pressing down on the roller until you feel the thing flushed. I don't know why, but I am unable to take out any blood from my scalp, I can hear the velcro sound but no blood. It does get really freaking red, but no blood. Good luck!!!

----------


## gainspotter

I was wondering if I have the correct equipments to clean the wounding. I have some saline spray I use to clean the scalp pre roll, then some sanitising wipes for after and some savlon antiseptic cream.
Anyone think this is a good method? Its hard to get betadine now, and I am struggling to even get rubbing alcohol.

----------


## ragsta

A few pics of a scar which has been hair free for years. No previous pics sorry. Can see tiny black dots. First pics i've taken 3 weeks in. I don't know about all the short black hairs as i don't trim my hair that short and if there that thick they should grow as fast as the rest ? Or i just cut really badly :s





http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo/f..._id=2285238486
http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo/f..._id=2285238875

cant get the pics to show. use control and scroll to zoom in out

----------


## hellouser

Photo's aren't loading. Try signing up for photobucket.com or using a temporary service like Tinypic.com

----------


## ragsta

ok hopefully now it works.. not sure if u can see bigger images or just me.





http://i1330.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8f2062f5.jpg
http://i1330.photobucket.com/albums/...pseba11c1c.jpg

----------


## clandestine

Does anyone know if this works for scarring on the head, like ragsta has?

Will this regrow hair in scarred areas? I have something similar. If anyone could comment eith any insights that'd be great.

----------


## clandestine

ragsta what mm roller are you using?

----------


## clandestine

> 35 years,
> 
> Since you work in a HT clinic, would you be able to inquire as to any risks of long term damage by eitiher normal microneedling or excessive microneedling.  Is there a chance that we could be scarring, or if not scarring our skin, making it thicker such that it would harm results of a future transplant in the recepient area?


 35YearsAfter;

----------


## ragsta

> ragsta what mm roller are you using?


 im using this one

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1708930332...84.m1439.l2649

1.5mm titanium 540 pin

----------


## clandestine

"I have had two dermaroller treatments and the second one effectively ruined my life.";

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/top...-dermarollers/

----------


## clandestine

Looking over this thread it seems valid concerns are 

1. Pushing too hard and
2. Bacterial issues surrounding improper sterilization and storing or rollers

How are you all sterilizing, and storing your dermarollers?

----------


## clandestine

Looking over this thread it seems valid concerns are 

1. Pushing too hard and
2. Bacterial issues surrounding improper sterilization and storing or rollers

How are you all sterilizing, and storing your dermarollers?

----------


## john2399

> Looking over this thread it seems valid concerns are 
> 
> 1. Pushing too hard and
> 2. Bacterial issues surrounding improper sterilization and storing or rollers
> 
> How are you all sterilizing, and storing your dermarollers?


 Im just using Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol..hopefully thats enough.

----------


## hellouser

> Looking over this thread it seems valid concerns are 
> 
> 1. Pushing too hard and
> 2. Bacterial issues surrounding improper sterilization and storing or rollers
> 
> How are you all sterilizing, and storing your dermarollers?


 1. Pressing too hard shouldnt matter in regards to side effects. We know that clinics as demonstrated in some of the youtube videos draw a LOT of blood.
2. Betadine, Isopropanol, Isopropyl should all be used to clean the roller. Some are boiling it hot water followed by the high concentration alcohols.

I store mine in a plastic enclose it came with and then inside the plastic tube container.

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

to clean it i pour betadine into a shot glass and let the roller sit in it for a few mins, I would think that would clean it pretty well...

----------


## Borealis

> to clean it i pour betadine into a shot glass and let the roller sit in it for a few mins, I would think that would clean it pretty well...


 I do this, but with TCP (it's an antiseptic), would've thought that's enough. Plus I do it just after I've had a shower so my scalp is clean.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> 35YearsAfter;


 I will ask Dr. Cole when he returns.  I doesn't hurt to see what the naysayers have to report.  In the case of micro needling, I see a risk of infection but that's about it:

Risk of Infection


Can you damage your skin?

I'm not a doctor and my opinions here are not to be interpreted as medical advice.
35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office

----------


## ragsta

no ones tried doxycycline to increase fgf9 ? seems to have already been bought up in the forum though

http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19...m.3181_F1.html

"To test whether increased expression of Fgf9 in the wound promotes WIHN, we overexpressed Fgf9 in the epidermis of FVB-Tg(KRT14-rtTA)F42Efu/J; TRE-Fgf9-IRES-EGFP (K14rtTA; Fgf9) transgenic mice. Administration of doxycycline to these mice induces expression of Fgf9 targeted to the epidermis by the promoter for the gene encoding keratin-14. Fgf9 expression increased 150-fold in these mice after doxycycline administration (Fig. 1d), and this led to a marked increase in the number of neogenic hair follicles compared to controls (Fig. 1e,f). These combined results indicate that modulation of Fgf9 expression in the wound affects WIHN."

----------


## clandestine

Thank you 35years. Maybe you can help me with one more query?




> Does anyone know if this works for scarring on the head, like ragsta has?
> 
> Will this regrow hair in scarred areas? I have something similar. If anyone could comment eith any insights that'd be great.


 Everyone;

----------


## rm056789

Rationale is based on excerpt from from highly publicized and heavily discussed study: 1α,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 modulates the hair-inductive capacity of dermal papilla cells: therapeutic potential for hair regeneration.

"upregulation of Wnt10b, ALPL, and TGF-β2 was mediated through the genomic VDR pathway. In a rat model of de novo hair regeneration by murine DPC transplantation, pretreatment with VD(3) significantly enhanced hair folliculogenesis. Specifically, a greater number of outgrowing hair shafts and higher maturation of regenerated follicles were observed" 

-Therefore as derma rolling is supposed to stimulate hair follicle neogenesis through WNT/FGF9 pathways and according to above, VD3 enhances follulogenesus (maturation) perhaps more rapid and profound results could be observed by treating scalp with VD3 prior to rolling.

Any thoughts?

----------


## hellouser

> Rationale is based on excerpt from from highly publicized and heavily discussed study: 1α,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 modulates the hair-inductive capacity of dermal papilla cells: therapeutic potential for hair regeneration.
> 
> "upregulation of Wnt10b, ALPL, and TGF-β2 was mediated through the genomic VDR pathway. In a rat model of de novo hair regeneration by murine DPC transplantation, pretreatment with VD(3) significantly enhanced hair folliculogenesis. Specifically, a greater number of outgrowing hair shafts and higher maturation of regenerated follicles were observed" 
> 
> -Therefore as derma rolling is supposed to stimulate hair follicle neogenesis through WNT/FGF9 pathways and according to above, VD3 enhances follulogenesus (maturation) perhaps more rapid and profound results could be observed by treating scalp with VD3 prior to rolling.
> 
> Any thoughts?


 Only one way to find out...

----------


## Tracy C

> Does anyone know if this works for scarring on the head, like ragsta has?
> 
> Will this regrow hair in scarred areas? I have something similar. If anyone could comment with any insights that'd be great.


 The only way to find out is to try it.  Keep in mind that these guys do not yet know if dermarolling is going to help them.  I hope it does.  I hope it helps improve my hair too.  The only way I am going to find out is to try - and if it does, you bet my sister and cousins are going hear about it.  We will take all the help we can get.  Haha

----------


## hellouser

> The only way to find out is to try it.  Keep in mind that these guys do not yet know if dermarolling is going to help them.  I hope it does.  I hope it helps improve my hair too.  The only way I am going to find out is to try - and if it does, you bet my sister and cousins are going hear about it.  We will take all the help we can get.  Haha


 Tracy,

What would you give to restore all or near all the hair you lost?

----------


## DesperateOne

> Tracy,
> 
> What would you give to restore all or near all the hair you lost?


 So Hellouser, since you're like the guy with the most time spend on forums, what seems to be the future so far? I went to kane shop and they're not even selling the CB there, or is it a secret link?

I am tired of waiting, my hair is shedding like crazy these last two months, I don't know if it is minox or what. Does minox usually thin out hair as well? Or does it just fall and go into the resting phase while it recovers.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Rationale is based on excerpt from from highly publicized and heavily discussed study: 1α,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 modulates the hair-inductive capacity of dermal papilla cells: therapeutic potential for hair regeneration.
> 
> "upregulation of Wnt10b, ALPL, and TGF-β2 was mediated through the genomic VDR pathway. In a rat model of de novo hair regeneration by murine DPC transplantation, pretreatment with VD(3) significantly enhanced hair folliculogenesis. Specifically, a greater number of outgrowing hair shafts and higher maturation of regenerated follicles were observed" 
> 
> -Therefore as derma rolling is supposed to stimulate hair follicle neogenesis through WNT/FGF9 pathways and according to above, VD3 enhances follulogenesus (maturation) perhaps more rapid and profound results could be observed by treating scalp with VD3 prior to rolling.
> 
> Any thoughts?


 So what does this thing mean? Where do we purchase thet VD3, I am not sure what to make of this.

----------


## hellouser

> So Hellouser, since you're like the guy with the most time spend on forums, what seems to be the future so far? I went to kane shop and they're not even selling the CB there, or is it a secret link?
> 
> I am tired of waiting, my hair is shedding like crazy these last two months, I don't know if it is minox or what. Does minox usually thin out hair as well? Or does it just fall and go into the resting phase while it recovers.


 This is CB:

http://www.thekaneshop.com/index.php...-form-iii.html

Future so far to me is this:

1) People don't give a shit about finding a cure
2) Bald Truth Talk members prefer to fight over small potatoes like Gho rather than tackling greater solutions
3) Follica is in Phase II trials. Hopefully they can release something in 2-3 years without FDA screwing them over or funding being an issue.
4) Histogen needs Phase IIb trials finished before they can move onto a release in asia, that won't happen until 2015 at the earliest.
5) Replicel is planning an asian release in 2015. Its possible but like all other things as history repeats itself, probably won't happen and also in part from the fact that nobody REALLY cares to see that happen.
6) Dr. Lauster needs to seriously be whipped into shape and told to hurry up as he's got a working cure. I sure as hell hope he's gone through Phase I clinical trials AT LEAST in the three years that have passed since he announced he created artificial hair.
7) Pilofocus, unless it has regeneration its nothing to be really excited about unless donor hair can be harvest from legs, chest, etc without Dr. Umar's fvcking retarded price of 8 dollars per graft (THE FVCK?!)
8) Dr. Nigam... well, this guy has had a full year to show us an NW6 go down to NW2 with his hair doubling technique but has shown JACK SHIT since. Until he shows CREDIBLE EVIDENCE with someone verifying his methods actually working, he's out of the picture.
9) Aderans... a company that is the epitome of incompetence. 10+ years to get to Phase 2 trials only to have funding pulled from them without an immediate backup plan to continue the research? Morons, the whole lot of them.

And lastly....

Community driven experiments. I really believe everything in our power should be done to try and emulate Follica's procedure so we can cure OURSELVES. Because despite hair loss sufferers being so fvcking delusional, NOBODY is going to help us except those with enough initiative to do something about it themselves. Which really illustrates how god damn lazy people are to even SUPPORT a crowdfunding initiative. Have fun balding.

----------


## DesperateOne

> The only way to find out is to try it.  Keep in mind that these guys do not yet know if dermarolling is going to help them.  I hope it does.  I hope it helps improve my hair too.  The only way I am going to find out is to try - and if it does, you bet my sister and cousins are going hear about it.  We will take all the help we can get.  Haha


 Tracy, please give us the cure already, I am tired of all this. I know you have a hidden gem on your house that you're keeping for yourself.

----------


## DesperateOne

> This is CB:
> 
> http://www.thekaneshop.com/index.php...-form-iii.html
> 
> Future so far to me is this:
> 
> 1) People don't give a shit about finding a cure
> 2) Bald Truth Talk members prefer to fight over small potatoes like Gho rather than tackling greater solutions
> 3) Follica is in Phase II trials. Hopefully they can release something in 2-3 years without FDA screwing them over or funding being an issue.
> ...


 Oh well, that sounds like no fun. Why did we get stuck with all the morons in the science field, we needed some of those prodigy mathematicians to join and we would of had the cure long ago.

So basically nothing is coming down the pipes for the next 3 years at least. All we have is this God damn experiments that send us all on wild goose chases  :Frown:  . Well, it's either this or just throw the freaking towel. But you're right, our only hope is to try and get Follica's method.

----------


## Tracy C

> Tracy,
> 
> What would you give to restore all or near all the hair you lost?


 LOL  I was unemployed for 18 months after the company I worked for closed it's doors.  I just got back on my feet and have nothing left to give.






> Tracy, please give us the cure already, I am tired of all this. I know you have a hidden gem on your house that you're keeping for yourself.


 Hahahaha  If I had the cure I would share it.

----------


## hellouser

> LOL  I was unemployed for 18 months after the company I worked for closed it's doors.  I just got back on my feet and have nothing left to give.


 :/

Well that... sucks. But I can relate; I lost my job THREE times due to the recession. Thankfully I bounced back each time.. as for myself, I'd give *everything* in my bank account for someone to cure me. Problem is, since hair loss is typically progressive, I'd need at least two visits; one to patch me up now and another to patch me up later on after I've lost more hair.

I'm so disgusted with the state that the research and timelines are at right now. It pisses me off even more when I think about GREYING HAIR being cured before hair loss.

If axel gets back to me and decides to go full steam ahead with the crowdfunding initiative (I need some help with it) I'm launching a full scale campaign just like 'who killed the electric' but for hair loss like 'who stalled the hair loss cure'. Names will be named.

----------


## Tracy C

> Problem is, since hair loss is typically progressive, I'd need at least two visits; one to patch me up now and another to patch me up later on after I've lost more hair.


 It took two hair transplant surgeries and many years on medications to make me look like a normal girl again.  One HT to fill in the bald spots that simply refused to regrow hair and a second HT to build up density...  Yes I look normal now.  I don't have bald spots anymore.  I just look like a lady with thin hair.  A little bit of Dermmatch makes it look thicker than it really is - but Dermmatch, though it does do an amazing job of concealing thinning, does nothing for volume.  So I wear a small topper hair extension when I want to look extra nice.

Do I want a cure?  You bet.  Do I think it will take as long as most of these guys think?  No I don't.  I think it will be sooner than everyone thinks - but that still won't be soon enough for most of these guys - cause it isn't yesterday's news.

----------


## LevonHelms

Guys, I think we're onto something with the dermarolling. If the trial doesn't produce excellent results, I'm almost certain some derivative or combination involving wounding will. I'm seeing some vellus hairs creep out and a few terminals around my hairline (fingers crossed).




> So what does this thing mean? Where do we purchase thet VD3, I am not sure what to make of this.


 There's an excellent explanation of VD3 and supplementing here; 
http://crossfitwilmington.com/vitamin-d/

----------


## hellouser

> It took two hair transplant surgeries and many years on medications to make me look like a normal girl again.  One HT to fill in the bald spots that simply refused to regrow hair and a second HT to build up density...  Yes I look normal now.  I don't have bald spots anymore.  I just look like a lady with thin hair.  A little bit of Dermmatch makes it look thicker than it really is - but Dermmatch, though it does do an amazing job of concealing thinning, does nothing for volume.  So I wear a small topper hair extension when I want to look extra nice.
> 
> Do I want a cure?  You bet.  Do I think it will take as long as most of these guys think?  No I don't.  I think it will be sooner than everyone thinks - but that still won't be soon enough for most of these guys - cause it isn't yesterday's news.


 Not sure if you've seen my pics but I'm about an NW3. For over the last month or two I've been shedding like CRAZY. Hands are littered with strands of hair after I shower. My hair is falling out consistently at work, so much so that by the end of the day I could make a small pile of hair. I'm almost DEAD CERTAIN its due to me hopping off RU back in May. Thank christ I have my CB to regain all I've lost and hopefully then some along with the potential added benefits of dermarolling.

I'd go for an HT myself... I have the cash, its not an issue.. its more so the progression of my hair loss that might be along with the fact that donor regeneration isn't much of a reality unless I go with Dr. Gho... but I don't want to pay $15,000 for only 1,600-1,800 grafts.

I also believe that a solid treatment is on the horizon. If Follica can plow through their Phase II and III trials, it definitely is possible for a north american release within 3 years. What's nice about them is that its got Dr. Cotsarelis leading the team, so its almost unlikely Cotsarelis will allow the project to fold after spending 20 years in dermatology and 6+ years on Follica.

But... I think if enough information is shed on us, we can figure out the procedure on our own much sooner. I really believe that, theres nothing 'special' about their method, we don't need lab equipment or stem cell culturing. I think this dermarolling trial will give us a good foundation to work on and then see how and where can move on from there.

----------


## HARIRI

> Not sure if you've seen my pics but I'm about an NW3. For over the last month or two I've been shedding like CRAZY. Hands are littered with strands of hair after I shower. My hair is falling out consistently at work, so much so that by the end of the day I could make a small pile of hair. I'm almost DEAD CERTAIN its due to me hopping off RU back in May. Thank christ I have my CB to regain all I've lost and hopefully then some along with the potential added benefits of dermarolling.
> 
> I'd go for an HT myself... I have the cash, its not an issue.. its more so the progression of my hair loss that might be along with the fact that donor regeneration isn't much of a reality unless I go with Dr. Gho... but I don't want to pay $15,000 for only 1,600-1,800 grafts.
> 
> I also believe that a solid treatment is on the horizon. If Follica can plow through their Phase II and III trials, it definitely is possible for a north american release within 3 years. What's nice about them is that its got Dr. Cotsarelis leading the team, so its almost unlikely Cotsarelis will allow the project to fold after spending 20 years in dermatology and 6+ years on Follica.
> 
> But... I think if enough information is shed on us, we can figure out the procedure on our own much sooner. I really believe that, theres nothing 'special' about their method, we don't need lab equipment or stem cell culturing. I think this dermarolling trial will give us a good foundation to work on and then see how and where can move on from there.


 May I know the reason why you hopped off RU since it gave you good results. Why would you go for CB which is new and not yet proven? I think you should have stuck with the RU thing. You had great results with it on your thread (Hellouser's RU). I would really want to know the reason why you quit it? Any sides???

----------


## doke

what about latisse supposed to be better than minoxidil but expensive if you use 1ml a day,then theres miconazole nitrate which you could use with minoxidil worth a try,as its cheap as chips check out videos on you tube on how to use micon i myself have mixed it with emu oil you can use the cream and then apply the greasy minox or foam.

----------


## doke

i forgot to add i also use some spiro cream applied to scalp as well and buzzed my hair again so i can see any improvement im having 0 hair loss down drain as i use a hair catcher and wash hair every day also on avodart 0.5mg a day.

----------


## Chromeo

:Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Conpecia

I think people should try what they want as long as enough of us are replicating the study with just wounding and minox. That way we can explore more avenues at the same time and compare results to the baseline treatment.

----------


## Conpecia

> Guys, I think we're onto something with the dermarolling. If the trial doesn't produce excellent results, I'm almost certain some derivative or combination involving wounding will. I'm seeing some vellus hairs creep out and a few terminals around my hairline (fingers crossed).
> 
> 
> 
> There's an excellent explanation of VD3 and supplementing here; 
> http://crossfitwilmington.com/vitamin-d/


 Nice dude, are you applying minox after rolling or waiting 24 hours?

----------


## Artista

Wow,,*over 71,000* views on this thread. 
You got my attention-lol. 
Hopefully Joe from Staten will create a discussion about this topic on the next Live show.
OK *Joe*?!?

----------


## hellouser

> Wow,,*over 71,000* views on this thread. 
> You got my attention-lol. 
> Hopefully Joe from Staten will create a discussion about this topic on the next Live show.
> OK *Joe*?!?


 Hey dude, can you give some input on my comment here:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...7&postcount=21

Thanks!

----------


## Artista

Hi *Hellouser* ,
 I have read that comment of yours yesterday.
Just to let you know, I have been consciously trying not to talk too much about it. That does NOT mean that I am not focused on Dr Wesley's upcoming technique.  I am in FULL AGREEMENT with Spencer's objective assertions that you have mentioned too.

As you may know , I have promised Dr Wesley that there are some aspects and specifics that i cannot share here, like percentage numbers, specific applications, etc
I will say that I feel very *POSITIVE* Hellouser,,*VERY* positive (and excited), on what may be available to us all in the near future regarding your statement.
Dr Wesley had said that I can share my experiences of his upcoming phase testing that I will be a patient of.
He said that if I were to try Finasteride that would be OK..which i have been using now for 23 days (no sides)
I dont know that I would be able to try out this *Dermarolling* technique right now though. 
I will talk with the Dr about it later.

----------


## hellouser

> Hi *Hellouser* ,
>  I have read that comment of yours yesterday.
> Just to let you know, I have been consciously trying not to talk too much about it. That does NOT mean that I am not focused on Dr Wesley's upcoming technique.  I am in FULL AGREEMENT with Spencer's objective assertions that you have mentioned too.
> 
> As you may know , I have promised Dr Wesley that there are some aspects and specifics that i cannot share here, like percentage numbers, specific applications, etc
> I will say that I feel very *POSITIVE* Hellouser,,*VERY* positive (and excited), on what may be available to us all in the near future regarding your statement.
> Dr Wesley had said that I can share my experiences of his upcoming phase testing that I will be a patient of.
> He said that if I were to try Finasteride that would be OK..which i have been using now for 23 days (no sides)
> I dont know that I would be able to try out this *Dermarolling* technique right now though. 
> I will talk with the Dr about it later.


 Thank you!!  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> Hi *Hellouser* ,
>  I have read that comment of yours yesterday.
> Just to let you know, I have been consciously trying not to talk too much about it. That does NOT mean that I am not focused on Dr Wesley's upcoming technique.  I am in FULL AGREEMENT with Spencer's objective assertions that you have mentioned too.
> 
> As you may know , I have promised Dr Wesley that there are some aspects and specifics that i cannot share here, like percentage numbers, specific applications, etc
> I will say that I feel very *POSITIVE* Hellouser,,*VERY* positive (and excited), on what may be available to us all in the near future regarding your statement.
> Dr Wesley had said that I can share my experiences of his upcoming phase testing that I will be a patient of.
> He said that if I were to try Finasteride that would be OK..which i have been using now for 23 days (no sides)
> I dont know that I would be able to try out this *Dermarolling* technique right now though. 
> I will talk with the Dr about it later.


 Also, one last question! I know its a bit off topic here, but since you're already noticing my inquiries:

Could Pilofocus be used for body hair? Legs, arms, etc? I've got an abundance of leg hair, more or less about 3-5 individual strands of hair all the way up to my thighs, I've done some math and it should be around 5,000 grafts (or more than 10,000 hairs in total). It'd be pretty awesome to use body hair as filler and have donor hair from the back of the head as the main hair.

Thanks again!  :Smile:

----------


## Artista

I don't believe his new technique would make body hair or beard hair any more applicable than they are now. It's still all depends on The doctor and the patient. Dr. Yates has explained body and beard hair usage pretty well before.  If the donor hair can be regrown/regenerated at a good percentage and the quality of said hair consistently remains normal, Then there possibly would not be a need for body/beard hair.. That is all speculation right now. The examples Of donor regeneration that Spencer and I have seen During that PowerPoint presentation Is still quite anecdotal But very promising!!

----------


## DesperateOne

> what about latisse supposed to be better than minoxidil but expensive if you use 1ml a day,then theres miconazole nitrate which you could use with minoxidil worth a try,as its cheap as chips check out videos on you tube on how to use micon i myself have mixed it with emu oil you can use the cream and then apply the greasy minox or foam.


 So you're suggesting we add vaginal mesh into the mix? Where is the resource that suggest this might work? Also, the 2% is good from amazon?

http://www.amazon.com/Miconazole-Nit...nazole+nitrate

Well I did see some videos on youtube but I don't know where they got that idea from and most of them are just affiliate assholes trying to sell you something. So those videos can't really be trusted no matter what they say.

----------


## DesperateOne

Maybe we can use this with Derma Rolling 

TREATMENT FOR BALDNESS AND/OR THINNING HAIR

Supplies NEEDED: 

Budget: $40

1) Miconazole Nitrate 2% (Monistat 7 or any generic version)
2) Eggs
3) Mayonnaise 
4) Deep Conditioner of your choice (preferrably one with Water (aqua) as its first ingredient and does not contain mineral oil, Petrolatum/Petrolium
5) Cleansing conditioner (without sulfate or sulfur of any kind)
6) Cap, Do-rag, or pillowcase made of silk or satin. 
7) Extra Virgin Olive Oil

Directions...

Daily:

A)Apply Deep Conditioner twice a day (first thing in the morning and then mid day) with one part deep conditioner and one part olive oil. (usually a palm full of both combined is enough - add more if necessary)

B)Every night before bed, wash hair ONLY USING Cleansing conditioner. When done, immediately massage ample amount of Miconazole Nitrate to balding or thinning areas and sleep with or on protective cap or garment (silk or satin cap). 

Note that hair or scalp should be "slick" with Miconazole Nitrate after application. If not, apply more.

AFTER SEVEN DAYS, YOUR NEW GROWTH WILL NEED PROTEIN TO REMAIN STRONG!!!

This is where the eggs and mayo come in.

REPLACE the MID DAY MOISTURIZING with the following for this ONE DAY ONLY:

Mix one egg and one tablespoon of mayonnaise until well beaten and creamy. Generously apply to balding or thinning areas and leave on for one hour. Wash out with cleansing conditioner and cold water and while hair is still wet, apply generous amounts of deep conditioner and let dry. DO NOT TOWEL DRY. 

Protein, while thickening, is EXTREMELY DRYING so your hair will need all the moisture it can get to survive.

Continue with daily routine. Note that this Egg and Mayo treament should ONLY be done after the first seven days of the routine, then once a month after. 

A few extra tips: 

Drink WATER WATER WATER... at LEAST 64oz per day and take a multivitamin (preferably one with fish oil and omega 3). 
Also, You can stay out of the sun and protect your hair from heat as much as possible.


YOU WILL SEE RESULTS! 

My results? 1/4 inch in ONE week on regular AND BALDING areas. That's 1 inch a month which is 12 inches a year. 2x faster than the average rate of hair growth.


On Balding areas, by the 9th day I had highly visible and strong new growth. I hope this helps someone and it is easy to follow!

----------


## brunobald

Acell + wounding. Has this ever been tried with a dermaroller?

----------


## LevonHelms

> Nice dude, are you applying minox after rolling or waiting 24 hours?


 I wait the 24 hrs. I've been following the trial pretty closely 1.5mm weekly with minoxidil every other day.  The only major thing I do differently, is apply minox once daily at night. It is a copious amount though and I feel it's probably just  as effective.

----------


## RisingFist

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0034152

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Alopecia is the common hair loss problem that can affect many people. However, current therapies for treatment of alopecia are limited by low efficacy and potentially undesirable side effects. We have identified a new function for valproic acid (VPA), a GSK3beta inhibitor that activates the Wnt/beta-catenin pathway, to promote hair re-growth in vitro and in vivo.
METHODOLOGY/PRINCIPAL FINDINGS:
Topical application of VPA to male C3H mice critically stimulated hair re-growth and induced terminally differentiated epidermal markers such as filaggrin and loricrin, and the dermal papilla marker alkaline phosphatase (ALP). VPA induced ALP in human dermal papilla cells by up-regulating the Wnt/beta-catenin pathway, whereas minoxidil (MNX), a drug commonly used to treat alopecia, did not significantly affect the Wnt/beta-catenin pathway. VPA analogs and other GSK3beta inhibitors that activate the Wnt/beta-catenin pathway such as 4-phenyl butyric acid, LiCl, and BeCl(2) also exhibited hair growth-promoting activities in vivo. Importantly, VPA, but not MNX, successfully stimulate hair growth in the wounds of C3H mice.
CONCLUSIONS/SIGNIFICANCE:
Our findings indicate that small molecules that activate the Wnt/beta-catenin pathway, such as VPA, can potentially be developed as drugs to stimulate hair re-growth.
Epub 2012 Apr 10

http://pubmed.gov/22506014



full study and pictures:
http://www.plosone.org/article...Fjournal.pone.0034152

What do you guys think of valproic acid for wnt signaling? Or a safer alternative would be valerian root. I would use that internally at least for better sleep and it may help to signal growth factors when you're healing. Topically might be an idea as well.

----------


## Tracy C

> what about latisse supposed to be better than minoxidil but...


 We do not actually know that yet.  It is expected to be at least as good as Minoxidil - but we do not yet actually know if it is better.






> ...then theres miconazole nitrate which you could use with minoxidil worth a try,as its cheap as chips check out videos on you tube....


 Are you for real?

Miconozole is in the same family of drugs as Ketoconazole and yes it can be helpful in treating hair loss - but not as helpful as Ketoconazole.

Don't believe everything to see on Youtube, especially when it comes to treating hair loss.

----------


## Tracy C

> i forgot to add i also use some spiro cream applied to scalp...


 A male should not touch Spiro in any form.

Don't believe everything you see on Youtube.

----------


## brunobald

Just thinking of typical donor regeneration in a HT patient. It is basicly deep wounding or an extreme case of derma rolling. Dr cole reports success rates of up to 70% and an average of around 50%. Imagine if 1 in 2 of the holes you make with your dermaroller sprouted hair! Truth is that is not happening so how can we replicated donor regen without actually touching our donor areas. Well a fue punch makes a much deeper and bigger diameter hole, some theorys state the wound needs to be self supporting and not close in on in itself. This forces the cells into a decision of wether to fill the void with hair or skin cells. The other ingredient missing used in donor regen is acell. Acell is made from pig? Stomach stem cells? Its widely used in the treatment of burns. Maybe something to research is hair growth in burns victims using acell for repairs.

In summery my idea is to use current donor regen methods to attempt to regen the mpb area. If this worked I would propose to modifiy a fue robot to perform the op up until the hair line. This would deskill the process and hopefully make it available to all.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Are you for real?
> 
> Miconozole is in the same family of drugs as Ketoconazole and yes it can be helpful in treating hair loss - but not as helpful as Ketoconazole.
> 
> Don't believe everything to see on Youtube, especially when it comes to treating hair loss.


 God dammit, I already ordered Miconozone online because of all the hype on youtube. At least it was relatively cheap, but I guess Ketoconazole would of been better.

----------


## Tracy C

> I already ordered Miconozone online because of all the hype on youtube.


 The vast majority of the "information" available on Youtube about hair loss is complete garbage.  Just as the vast majority of the "information" available on this subject throughout the internet as a whole is garbage.  I have yet to see anything from anyone other than a hair restoration doctor that had any real value at all.

----------


## DesperateOne

> The vast majority of the "information" available on Youtube about hair loss is complete garbage.  Just as the vast majority of the "information" available on this subject throughout the internet as a whole is garbage.  I have yet to see anything from anyone other than a hair restoration doctor that had any real value at all.


 So when it arrives do you recommend that I should just dump it or should I try it out at least.

----------


## Tracy C

Why would I suggest dumping it?

I suggest trying to validate the "information" you find.  Most guys and gals in hair loss forums are not very good at that.

----------


## HARIRI

> A male should not touch Spiro in any form.
> 
> Don't believe everything you see on Youtube.


 I agree on that, when I used to be a regular customer with Dr. Lee and used to order ******* 5&#37;. He advised me to upgrade it to 15% and use it once a day for better efficiency. But when I asked him about adding Spiro to my regime, he told me straight away to stay away from it and that it is being recommended to female customers only. So what Tracy C mentioned about Spiro makes sense.

I believe CB 03 01 is the BEST thing to be added to the Minox daily Regime. They are selling it at the kane shop and could be mixed by many vehicles, the most common one ethanol/PG.

----------


## Tracy C

> I believe CB 03 01 is the BEST...


 On what grounds do you base this belief?  On more garbage you found on the internet?  Yet another pilot study?  Yet more worthless "testimonials" from young guys on the internet?

----------


## chimera

> On what grounds do you base this belief?  On more garbage you found on the internet?  Yet another pilot study?  Yet more worthless "testimonials" from young guys on the internet?


 Wow, you're a very arrogant person, yet, event though you tend to say you are always right, most of the time you open your mouth you are wrong. You're not different than all these kids, not at all.

----------


## Chromeo

YouTube is notoriously bad for hairloss advice. It's basically full of bullsh*t.

----------


## StayThick

> Wow, you're a very arrogant person, yet, event though you tend to say you are always right, most of the time you open your mouth you are wrong. You're not different than all these kids, not at all.


 I actually think she is right on this. We don't know the effect of CB yet, as it is unproven and people still can't figure out the proper vehicle. It's all wish washy at the moment.

CB could end up being all hype and no substance, especially without the correct vehicle, so Tracy is not 100% off base with her comment.

Fortunately, we have extremely helpful forum members on here that are currently trying various vehicles and testing it out. Only time will tell.

----------


## hellouser

> I actually think she is right on this. We don't know the effect of CB yet, as it is unproven and people still can't figure out the proper vehicle. It's all wish washy at the moment.
> 
> CB could end up being all hype and no substance, especially without the correct vehicle, so Tracy is not 100% off base with her comment.
> 
> Fortunately, we have extremely helpful forum members on here that are currently trying various vehicles and testing it out. Only time will tell.


 A member on another forum got fantastic results on CB with a 50/50 ethanol/PG mix. And it wasn't bullshit evidence, as he mentioned that he got the same results using Finasteride (got off Fin, lost all gone, got on CB and regained everything that was lost). I won't name names or post pics as theyre part of the private forums.

So CB, at least from some sources, and at least in ethanol/PG vehicle, is definitely not 'wishy washy'

----------


## StayThick

> A member on another forum got fantastic results on CB with a 50/50 ethanol/PG mix. And it wasn't bullshit evidence, as he mentioned that he got the same results using Finasteride (got off Fin, lost all gone, got on CB and regained everything that was lost). I won't name names or post pics as theyre part of the private forums.
> 
> So CB, at least from some sources, and at least in ethanol/PG vehicle, is definitely not 'wishy washy'


 Hellouser: We are on the same team bro. But evidence from some single random dude on another forum means absolutely SQUAT to me and doesn't prove ANYTHING. Was the individual utilizing other treatments at the same time? What evidence did he provide that proved CB was reason he regained his post FIN lost hair? 

Only way for me to find out is to try it myself, which I plan on doing. There are too many variables for me to place confidence on an experimental treatment because you said "1 guy" on another forum stated results.

I know 5 people on this forum that got results from Neogenic, come on dude, seriously?...it's all wishy washy at this point. FACT. I hope it pans out though.

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser: We are on the same team bro. But evidence from some single random dude on another forum means absolutely SQUAT to me and doesn't prove ANYTHING. Was the individual utilizing other treatments at the same time? What evidence did he provide that proved CB was reason he regained his post FIN lost hair?
> 
> Only way for me to find out is to try it myself, which I plan on doing. There are too many variables for me to place confidence on an experimental treatment because you said "1 guy" on another forum stated results.
> 
> I know 5 people on this forum that got results from Neogenic, come on dude, seriously?...it's all wishy washy at this point. FACT. I hope it pans out though.


 You'd have to see the photos and log. The increase in density was incredible. But, you can either take my word for it or dismiss my input, I really don't care. Those of you throwing CB under the bus prematurely can go ahead and do so, its not going to affect my continued treatment with CB. While I've made great strides with RU, I lost them equally once getting off. When (less likely if though) I make progress with CB, you'll know when I update my log. But then, I'll probably be the first guy on BTT to do so, and with that said, you can use the same argument as you just did now against my case: I'm just one guy that got a result from CB, come on dude, seriously? Or will all of you take my case should it be successful as fact or 'one case isn't good enough' ? How many people will it take for you guys to jump on the CB train? Do realize that the longer you wait, the more hair youre going to lose as AGA is typically progressive. If youre going to wait for it to be released from Cosmo, you might as well become an advocate/activist for Replicel/Histogen as thats more or less *probably* going to be released around the same time. I hope not though, and I seriously hope both companies can prove us wrong because the wait times for a superior treatment to Finasteride are disgusting and *EVERYONE is to blame*; the biotech companies, the FDA, the researchers, the media, you, me and *especially the hair loss community for being SO FVCKING COMPLACENT.*

----------


## Tracy C

> Wow, you're a very arrogant person.


 Actually I am - and for darn good reason.  I know how to tell the difference between good information and garbage.

I do not claim to be always right all the time but I am not wrong everytime I open my mouth.  If you think I am, your are simply choosing to believe garbage information.  I know better than that.  You obviously do not.

----------


## Tracy C

> A member on another forum got fantastic results on CB...


 One case that is not formally documented by a credible observer is not good evidence.  You want good evidence?  Find many cases that are formally documented by credible observers.  Anything less is garbage.

----------


## doke

> A male should not touch Spiro in any form.
> 
> Don't believe everything you see on Youtube.


 Tracy im not sure if you are a beginner in this hair loss field but spironolactone as a topical for mpb does not cause systemic problems like oral finasteride so its safer than the latter.
Men should not use oral spiro due to feminising affects although there were some guys trying it on a low dose which i would not,one over 60 year old was using it for under medical conditions after 6 years regrew all his hair that had been bald for many years.
It was talked about on other forums that spiro topical was as good as topical flutamide which we know can enter the body and was safe to use also can be used on face for acne.
By the way tracy spiro was not seen by me on you tube i have used it on and off for many years and have returned to using it with miconazol nitrate and its going well i have ceased using minoxidil.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

we all love hellouser. he's a very helpful member on many forums and knows his sh&#37;t

----------


## wheresMYhairDUDE

> One case that is not formally documented by a credible observer is not good evidence.  You want good evidence?  Find many cases that are formally documented by credible observers.  Anything less is garbage.


 I completely agree with you but this is the problem - as I browse forums there are as many different treatment 'regimes' as there are hair loss sufferers. Unless everybody with a treatment 'regime' follows a set procedure of documenting what they are doing & using and the results we will never get a true picture of what helps, what doesn't and how good/bad the results are.  :Frown:

----------


## StayThick

> I completely agree with you but this is the problem - as I browse forums there are as many different treatment 'regimes' as there are hair loss sufferers. Unless everybody with a treatment 'regime' follows a set procedure of documenting what they are doing & using and the results we will never get a true picture of what helps, what doesn't and how good/bad the results are.


 Exactly. This is the problem and what I was trying to explain to Hellouser. 

He's on point though with the fact the longer I wait the more hair I lose. I'll try CB myself because I'd want to know if it could work for me, but I haven't heard or seen any documented case of CB producing results outside of what Hellouser just stated...which by the way I trust his opinion, but its tough to have confidence on one random case.

I'll let everyone know when I start CB and go from there because I don't know who exactly is trialing it right now outside of Hellouser and possibly LilPauly.

----------


## HARIRI

Same here StayThick, I will also start CB once its available at Iron Dragon as a pre mixed ready form to be used right away. Its very hard to get alcohol in the Middle East. I will use CB and Minox together once a day before bedtime and swallow one capsule of Keratene Alphactive Retard along the way. Im so thankful that there is an intelligent member like Hellouser in this golden forum :-)

----------


## wheresMYhairDUDE

> Exactly. This is the problem and what I was trying to explain to Hellouser. 
> 
> He's on point though with the fact the longer I wait the more hair I lose. I'll try CB myself because I'd want to know if it could work for me, but I haven't heard or seen any documented case of CB producing results outside of what Hellouser just stated...which by the way I trust his opinion, but its tough to have confidence on one random case.
> 
> I'll let everyone know when I start CB and go from there because I don't know who exactly is trialing it right now outside of Hellouser and possibly LilPauly.


 Sounds like we need to;
1. Get a CB takers forum going.
2. Agree a formal documentation procedure (pics/CB dose & vehicle/results tracking)

If we can assemble a number of people who commit to following an agreed process it will put us in a better position where we're at least doing something semi-scientific and will be able to judge with some degree of certainty what variations of CB are/aren't working.

I'd be up for giving CB a go  :Smile:

----------


## doke

you guys here crack me up as nothing has proved to regrow any hair best check with spencer or joe of staton island but these products are experimental with no proof of any human trials for safety i myself have been duped into trying ru and that a&g complex a few years back and lost money doing it.
I saying this now as many newbee looking at this forum will get confused as i am as well i say to these young guys use proved products that have been through trials and are relative safe to use.
I myself am using cheap as chips products with the proved drugs.

----------


## doke

by the way anyone still on trx2 which is another con trick and if anyone wants to know my regrime its miconazol nitrate which i have some already mixed with emu oil and i have started putting neat 2% micon on scalp before i apply minoxidil that has prop glycol in and is really cheap to buy.
Already had a hairmax laser 9 lux which i got cheap off ebay but i think i need a more powerful laser like omg site states for hair loss.
I also make my own benonite clay with av mix and some tea tree oil which i have been a bit lazy to use lately.
Have i had any regrowth well i have buzzed my hair again to see if this new regrime can do anything and i now have zero hair loss in drain and i forgot im on dutasteride 0.5mg a day as propecia did nothing for me,and also biotin and silica.
I got all this stuff cheaper than buying ru from kane or mpb treatments and hope i can get success.
I have at my age come to learn not to get excited with these companies saying they have a product in the pipeline and then it comes to nothing giving false hope to us.

----------


## hellouser

> by the way anyone still on trx2 which is another con trick and if anyone wants to know my regrime its miconazol nitrate which i have some already mixed with emu oil and i have started putting neat 2% micon on scalp before i apply minoxidil that has prop glycol in and is really cheap to buy.
> Already had a hairmax laser 9 lux which i got cheap off ebay but i think i need a more powerful laser like omg site states for hair loss.
> I also make my own benonite clay with av mix and some tea tree oil which i have been a bit lazy to use lately.
> Have i had any regrowth well i have buzzed my hair again to see if this new regrime can do anything and i now have zero hair loss in drain and i forgot im on dutasteride 0.5mg a day as propecia did nothing for me,and also biotin and silica.
> I got all this stuff cheaper than buying ru from kane or mpb treatments and hope i can get success.
> I have at my age come to learn not to get excited with these companies saying they have a product in the pipeline and then it comes to nothing giving false hope to us.


 This is not the thread for such comments.

----------


## fred970

I just rolled for the first time yesterday with a 1,5 mm roller. I follow the study as closely as possible, I tried to cause a mild whatever I don't remember the word and some blood appeared there and there. I'm using 5&#37; minoxidil 6 days a week.

I'm NW5, so if there is a change in 3 months, I think it will be easy to spot.

----------


## clandestine

> This is not the thread for such comments.


 Agreed. And this is not the subforum to push proven treatments.

----------


## clandestine

> I just rolled for the first time yesterday with a 1,5 mm roller. I follow the study as closely as possible, I tried to cause a mild whatever I don't remember the word and some blood appeared there and there. I'm using 5% minoxidil 6 days a week.
> 
> I'm NW5, so if there is a change in 3 months, I think it will be easy to spot.


 Take baseline photos dude.

----------


## thinningTooSoon

Hi,

I am really keen to start this trial myself. Given the study you quote on this page, would you recommend trying the Theradome Laser Helmet alongside the derma rolling?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...&postcount=592

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/th...e-laser-helmet

----------


## cotto

hi, im new in the forum but i´ve been reading for a while. I´m interested in the treatment and im taking tons of pics of my buzzed head, so if there is any regrow will  be easy to know because i will take pics just after buzz my hair.
I got a question,  my scalp gets pretty  "descamed" due to minoxidil and will like to try minox just 24 after the dermarroling, its supossed that the minox is to induce wnt factors right so i will only use minox 2 times or three after dermarroling. It will be right?
I want to use foligain foam because the foam is advertised to be mild in the scalp, but i have heard that folligain foam contains lacetic acid and i dont know if will contrarrest the wnt procedure.
Sorry about my little english, greetings from spain.

----------


## UK Boy

> by the way anyone still on trx2 which is another con trick and if anyone wants to know my regrime its miconazol nitrate which i have some already mixed with emu oil and i have started putting neat 2% micon on scalp before i apply minoxidil that has prop glycol in and is really cheap to buy.
> Already had a hairmax laser 9 lux which i got cheap off ebay but i think i need a more powerful laser like omg site states for hair loss.
> I also make my own benonite clay with av mix and some tea tree oil which i have been a bit lazy to use lately.
> Have i had any regrowth well i have buzzed my hair again to see if this new regrime can do anything and i now have zero hair loss in drain and i forgot im on dutasteride 0.5mg a day as propecia did nothing for me,and also biotin and silica.
> I got all this stuff cheaper than buying ru from kane or mpb treatments and hope i can get success.
> I have at my age come to learn not to get excited with these companies saying they have a product in the pipeline and then it comes to nothing giving false hope to us.


 Ummm, ok, so you shaved your head to see if your regime was working and since you shaved your head you now have zero hair loss in the drain. I'm not saying your regime isn't working - I mean you're on Dut so I'm sure it's doing something but do you not think that one of the biggest reasons that you're seeing "zero" hair loss in the drain now is cos the buzzed hairs are so short that they're going straight down without getting caught the drain? I always have to question guys who talk about "zero" hair loss - even kids and women shed some hairs each day - it's part of the natural hair growth cycle.

----------


## 534623

> I completely agree with you but this is the problem - as I browse forums there are as many different treatment 'regimes' as there are hair loss sufferers. Unless everybody with a treatment 'regime' follows a set procedure of documenting what they are doing & using and the results we will never get a true picture of what helps, what doesn't and how good/bad the results are.


 Hopefully you could still read my answer/post - before it got deleted.

Anyway, now you should know definitely what I was talking about  - you know, "TALK" and "blah blah" ... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Jazz1

> Same here StayThick, I will also start CB once its available at Iron Dragon as a pre mixed ready form to be used right away. Its very hard to get alcohol in the Middle East. I will use CB and Minox together once a day before bedtime and swallow one capsule of Keratene Alphactive Retard along the way. Im so thankful that there is an intelligent member like Hellouser in this golden forum :-)


 When you think iron dragon will have it?

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## HARIRI

> When you think iron dragon will have it?


 In their homepage, they mentioned this:-

*~PRE SALE~

Cortexolone 17 alpha propionate

ETA: approximately 1 week

See description under: "Selective Anti-Androgen*

----------


## Conpecia

Did my second round of rolling and it was quite a bit more painful than the first. Not sure why. Bastards at amazon botched my minox supply so tomorrow I might have to go buy it at a store. Hate doing that. 

Made sure there was redness and some bleeding this time. Anyone noticing anything who's been it for 3-4 weeks?

----------


## JJacobs152

Nobody posting results with the following combo:

roller + minox + nizoral + fin?  :Confused: 

I'd like to be a part of this group, but having a study where n = 1 doesn't really mean much.

----------


## deuce

So everyone is/was super excited about this.  Anyone seeing any results?

----------


## horte

Has anyone shed off dermarolling or is that just me... Plus I had to use min on days I roll because if I skip a day I lose to many damn hairs.

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## Baby John

Horte,

You wait 24 hours to apply minox to reduce the risk of increased systemic absorbtion.

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## HARIRI

> Has anyone shed off dermarolling or is that just me... Plus I had to use min on days I roll because if I skip a day I lose to many damn hairs.


 I tried the 1.5mm and the other day I threw it in the trash bin. I cant handle it at all. Its torturing me and felt stupid, I decided to stick with the 0.5mm scalp roller, at least it will help absorption, also Nanogen company found in their trial that 0.5mm roller does have more benefits:-

The Scalproller has 4 innovative modes of action to enhance any hair treatment regimen:

1. Increases Topical Treatment Absorption

Scalproller pre-treatment has been shown to increase absorption of topical treatments by 5 times or more. With Scalproller pre-treatment, lower 2% concentrations of a topical treatment solution will give concentrations in the scalp higher than when using 5% solutions on untreated skin. Similarly, 5% solutions will produce higher concentrations in the scalp than 12.5% solutions or suspensions used on untreated skin. Frontal scalp areas are notoriously difficult to treat topically, most probably due to lack of absorption. Therefore topical treatments are only really effective in treating vertex hair loss. Using Nanogen's Scalproller can dramatically increase absorption of topical treatments in these regions, opening up new potential areas for topical treatments to act on.

2. Heals Donor Scars

Hair transplant surgery commonly leaves scars in the donor region; Nanogen's Scalproller has been proven to fade and reduce the appearance of these scars by breaking up scar tissue structures and formations. Plus there is evidence in animal models to show that new hair may grow to conceal the donor area after Scalproller treatment.

3. Activates PRP Treatment

Platelet Rich Plasma or PRP therapy is a cutting edge development in hair loss treatment. PRP has been shown to produce thicker transplanted hair growth, and possibly even thicken non-transplanted hair. In PRP therapy, the platelet and growth factor rich fraction of the patient's blood is re-injected into them, and then growth is activated by repeated needle insertion. Single needle insertion is irregular, time consuming and often painful. Scalproller treatment produces much more reliable, regular needle insertions in less time, and with less pain.

4. Encourages New Hair Growth

The latest research by Intercytex, performed with Dr. Bessam Farjo as principal investigator, has shown that patients receiving superficial injections and controlled wounding grow new hair, which may solely be a result of the controlled skin wounding itself. This surprising result is correlated by the pioneering work published by Dr. George Cotsarelis of Pennsylvania University, who found that stimulation of the Wnt protein by wounding leads to hair regeneration. Wounding by microneedles would potentially start this Wnt protein mediated growth stimulation, and prevent synthesis of TGF-β2, a protein known to induce hair loss.

Scalproller treatment increases topical treatment penetration and may independently promote new hair growth.

----------


## Baby John

Also note:

Wounding that produces the signaling that may cause hair growth may also increase the incidence of basal cell carcinoma. See the study Hellouser posted earlier in this thread.

----------


## horte

Wouldn't increased systemic absorption be good tho for Mindoxil?

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## hellouser

> Wouldn't increased systemic absorption be good tho for Mindoxil?


 Not systemic, unless you want heart problems.

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## Baby John

horte,

Minox is a medication used to treat hypertension. It's taken orally in this case to provide a systemic effect and there are risks that accompany this particular use for each individual.

When used topically for the purpose of hair regrowth/retention, efficacy should be enhanced when it stays where desired, which is at the follicle, and the risks that go along with systemic use should be reduced or possibly eliminated.

----------


## Hicks

Something interesting:  I foam roll before my workouts at the gym so why not Ball Roll your head?  In a nut shell foam rolling is used to break up tissue and increase blood circulation.  If you ask 10 different people you will get 7 different answers.  Anyway. I ball rolled my head (if you do it right it hurt like a mother), jumped in the shower, then dermarolled 1.5mm.  I can say without a doubt I bleed like a gut deer.  I know the purpose is to wound NOT bleed out.  Point being it seem ball rolling does increase blood circulation or blood to the area.  Blood is key for repairing any wound.  Just something to think about.

----------


## Baby John

Bear with me because I haven't posted in years...

Interestingly, my last post involved the use of Acell, which has been mentioned in this thread. 
I was very excited when I saw the thread title but after plowing thru 90 pages I have yet to see anything remotely resembling a community trial happening here.

A research paper showing potentially positive results describing a specific type of wounding using a specific instrument using a specific protocol. Simple? 

Instead I've read mostly stuff that has sorta bummed me out...

Totally ignoring risk factors so that no informed decisions seem to be made.
Little to no adherence to the instrument or protocol described so efficacy can't be determined.
No need to move on from here because without the above all you have is a bunch of individuals rolling dice and hoping for 7/11 to come up ten times in a row.

Hellouser came up with a good initial idea when starting this thread but I'm afraid  overabundant enthusiasm and maybe a little desperation has allowed the train to come off the rails.

Oh well...

----------


## clandestine

Baby John; what do you recommend?

----------


## Hicks

Baby John:  Some of us lurk and keep a personal journal and when something interesting pops up we chime in.  Feel free to start your own trial and let us know when/if something interesting pops up.  Glad your back!

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## Baby John

My first recommendation would be to treat all recommendations sceptically. Not joking here.

You have a community here, some of them quite informed. And everyone can contribute to researching things.

Job One would be to rip the study apart and look for potential problems. If satisfied...

Job Two would establish a protocol that would be agreed upon by the community and would be strictly adhered to. Safety guidelines are established and strictly adhered to. Deviation would be considered a different trial.

That's a start, feel free to smash it and make it better.

----------


## hellouser

I'm definitely deviating from the study;

1) I'm on CB-03-01 at the moment
2) Dermarolling is causing me significant bleeding

In reference to #2, I don't see the point of using a 1.5mm without it having to cause bleeding. If 'mild erythema' was desired, a 0.5mm microneedle dermaroller would have been enough. Therefor, they most likely didn't press in all the way with the 1.5mm dermaroller.

----------


## Atum

Did a dermarolling session for the first time this morning. 
I was a bit surprised that you can hear your skin getting pierced. Well, i think i pressed the needles full in, i was bleeding, so that's a good sign.

----------


## Baby John

Heya Hicks,

Thanks for the welcome. It was actually another board I bailed on because the hysteria got on my nerves. Being told you know nothing about something I was involved with clinically, then to watch the product being used improperly by a transplant surgeon with good intentions soured me completely. Haven't posted again til today. Depending upon what I see here near term I may be bailing again...

Personal experimentation is all well and good, but it needs to be well thought out and carefully monitored. The advantage to working with a community is you now can replicate results and collectively keep an eye out for problems. 

Take what you're doing with the roller ball for example. I've done my share of stripping with a foam roller and yes, breaking up micro-scarring hurts.

Now, when doing this to your head and coupling it with the needling do you think the level of damage that is being done is in line with what's required to initiate the desired signal process? From a risk perspective, are you exceeding the parameter and perhaps promoting fibrotic tissue formation?

I am not trying to break your chops. Just trying to get you to ask questions to which you may desire an answer.

----------


## brunobald

> Being told you know nothing about something I was involved with clinically, then to watch the product being used improperly by a transplant surgeon with good intentions soured me completely.


 Hi BabyJohn, was this Acell by any chance?

----------


## Hicks

> Heya Hicks,
> Take what you're doing with the roller ball for example. I've done my share of stripping with a foam roller and yes, breaking up micro-scarring hurts.
> 
> Now, when doing this to your head and coupling it with the needling do you think the level of damage that is being done is in line with what's required to initiate the desired signal process? From a risk perspective, are you exceeding the parameter and perhaps promoting fibrotic tissue formation?
> 
> I am not trying to break your chops. Just trying to get you to ask questions to which you may desire an answer.


 No worries, I have thick skin.  Truefully I don't know.  It was an idea I had but with the amount of blood I had I doubt I will do it with the derma roller again. I might use my derma roller Sunday night then ball roll another day.  I made a post about the ball roll because I would say without a doubt it does do something.  What it actually does in the scientific world I don't know. That being said it might be a great tool for someone that doesn't want to dermaroll.  The Idea is to damage then repair (I do take supplement i.e., amino acids, etc.), ball rolling does do damage to the tissue and blood is circulating more and with the addition of minoxal you might get results. I know foam rolling is pretty awesome before a workout.

I don't try to get into a dog fights in these forums and I'm to busy to read all 90 pages where 80% are peole crying and not doing their own homework.  I get an idea and try it out for 1-3 months.  I wish I rented a macro lens for pictures because I am seeing small dark hairs but I"m not sure if those are hairs from a hair cycling back to life or not.  However I did visit some HT Dr.s in I think July and they took photos.  I'll be back to those Drs again in Nov to make a decision on a HT. That would make me at one year being on the Big 3.

----------


## Baby John

Hellouser,

Then you find some people who are willing to work with you for a cb/needling trial. Piggybacking one trial to another is the decision of the participants. Statistical samples don't have to be huge. Repeating a result and enhancing safety are what your looking for. 

You asked another poster what they would they give to get their hair back, what you don't give is your physical well being. Always remember very nasty things can happen along with the good...

----------


## Baby John

Hi Bruno,

Yes it was. I sold a nearly identical product from another company. A tissue derived acellular matrix. Whether from Acell or the company I was with, make no mistake, these are wonderful products with a great track record for making peoples lives better.

However, hair follicles don't form in them. Not one piece of evidence in the 25 years that this stuff has been around shows a specialized structure forming in the new tissue during the healing process. Not one sweat gland, goose bump or hair.

Another study hellouser posted in this thread addresses this as well.

Lot of interesting stuff on this thread.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Also note:
> 
> Wounding that produces the signaling that may cause hair growth may also increase the incidence of basal cell carcinoma. See the study Hellouser posted earlier in this thread.


 That's something to be concerned about!  This is an article (PDF) worth looking at.

I personally believe that a poor diet, air quality, carcinogen exposure and poor general health can act as a cancer "catalyst".  Of course genetics plays a role as well.

Don't burn your head guys!  Some sun exposure is good in my opinion.  If you're doing micro needling, stay healthy.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
www.forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## Baby John

Hicks,

You may be spot on. I certainly don't know. I just want people to ask questions and try to make informed decisions before they decide to do - or not to do - something.

Thanks for being nice about it though,  I can sound like a robot.

----------


## HARIRI

> That's something to be concerned about!  This is an article (PDF) worth looking at.
> 
> I personally believe that a poor diet, air quality, carcinogen exposure and poor general health can act as a cancer "catalyst".  Of course genetics plays a role as well.
> 
> Don't burn your head guys!  Some sun exposure is good in my opinion.  If you're doing micro needling, stay healthy.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
> www.forhair.com
> Cole Hair Transplant
> ...


 Thats why professional hair companies produce dermarollers for scalp (Scalp rollers) with maximum 0.5mm needles to avoid bad wounding. Even on Ebay, most of dermarollers have instructions in which one to choose and for which purpose. When it comes to hair loss they would refer to 0.3, 0.5 and 0.75 maximum and not more. I spent a lot of money on my transplanted hair and not wishing to damage my precious follicles lol.

I'm using the 0.5mm scalp roller once a week although its mentioned that it could be used everyday. Its better than nothing. None of us here want to have tumors God forbid  :Frown:

----------


## Pentarou

Eurgh, I'm reluctant to jump on this bandwagon now if there's a tumour risk.

----------


## Ginkosama

> Eurgh, I'm reluctant to jump on this bandwagon now if there's a tumour risk.


 There will always be something.
We are talking about piercing *1.0mm* holes in your head *once* a week.

I think mankind faced tougher threats and survived just fine.

Man up people.

----------


## KeepHoping

People who are not in the sciences throw around the word "carcinogenic" all the time but it shouldn't scare people away.  People commonly say that aspartame in diet beverages causes cancer or is carcinogenic when in fact there is zero scientific evidence to back it.  I highly doubt a 1.5mm dermaroller on the human scalp will actually cause much risk of tumor formation.

It's a 12 week study... It doesn't cost much to do, if you want to give it a shot and follow the protocol on the study, do it! If not, don't.  It's that simple.

----------


## KeepHoping

I would like to ask what type of minoxidil you guys recommend.  Foam or Liquid?

----------


## HARIRI

> I would like to ask what type of minoxidil you guys recommend.  Foam or Liquid?


 Liquid of course, please read this article:-

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair...oam-or-liquid/

----------


## Hicks

> I would like to ask what type of minoxidil you guys recommend.  Foam or Liquid?


 I use regain foam in the mornings because it's not greasy and flows with the weeds I have left, then I use lipogaine liquid at night.  I think liquid is best but I'd be damned if I use it before I go to work or out in public

----------


## StayThick

> I use regain foam in the mornings because it's not greasy and flows with the weeds I have left, then I use lipogaine liquid at night.  I think liquid is best but I'd be damned if I use it before I go to work or out in public


 This is exactly what I do. I agree 100% with this.

I can't fathom going out during the day with Lipogaine or Minox liquid on my head. No way.

----------


## evasive

I just received my Roller in the mail (192 needles 1.5mm)

One question though, I am using Non-PG Minoxidil... this won't affect anything right?

----------


## brunobald

> However, hair follicles don't form in them. Not one piece of evidence in the 25 years that this stuff has been around shows a specialized structure forming in the new tissue during the healing process. Not one sweat gland, goose bump or hair.


 BabyJohn we could do with your experience on the forum. What are your thoughts on HT Surgens who use Acell injected into the doner hair site. Dr Cole claims a regen rate of 50% on average and a max of 70%

----------


## Baby John

Bruno,

Don't know how far off topic this is but, since wounding and regenerative healing is the subject it may be relevant.

I can't speak about this surgeon's claims because I don't know the specifics.

That being said, I can talk about the facts regarding tissue derived acellular scaffolds. In the treatments that are available today, they are among the best. When used correctly in a patient that is physically receptive to the device and if that patient is compliant, good and sometimes amazing outcomes will be observed.

Take a strip excision for example. A surgeon applies good technique in the closure, the patient matches well with the scaffold and is compliant so as not to disrupt the healing process, you will see: full thickness skin formation without visible fibrous build up. Great contraction of the wound because of this. Better remodeling of the wound including pigmentation. Make no mistake, this is awesome when it goes right. Your best result is sometimes called "baby skin" because it looks great, is nice and smooth AND contains zero specialized structures. This skin will never sweat, form a goose bump or grow a hair follicle.

Every piece of research regarding full, scar free regenerative wound healing bears this out. In the study posted on this very thread regarding hydrogels this was confirmed yet again by using this type of scaffold as a control. They grew no structures and actually appeared to contraindicate their formation.

----------


## clandestine

ragsta; where are you at bro?

Baby John; not sure if you might have any insights on this, but I've got some scarring on my head from using a razor at one point.

I'm planning on using a 1.5mm derma roller in conjunction with minox to hopefully remediate this to an extent, and maybe even possible regrow some hair in the scarred area.

The hair was never removed, scarring just occurred. Do you think a 1.5mm derma roller could help? Should I use a smaller mm, like 1 or 0.75, as I currently have a shaved head?

Thank you.

----------


## hellouser

Seeing how I started the thread and would like to maintain it to stay on topic, I guess you could say it has something to do with me.

Feel free to take your off-topic comments elsewhere. Thank you.

----------


## Breaking Bald

So anyone seeing much results yet?

----------


## doke

I have made comments myself on my own threads and welcome everyone so take you secret society with you as the bald truth wants people who tell the truth not this silly dermaroller thread as i was using this when you were in dipers.
No new thing this been around many years if it worked we would know by now im not saying it does nothing it maydo but for me it did not. :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## clandestine

> The problem with aggressive micro-needling is that there is really no longterm studies that have been conducted on the formation of scar tissue within the scalp that can ultimately adversely effect hair growth. If you couple that with potential tissue irritants found in these topical vehicles the potential for irreversible damage is certainly there. I really think people need to exercise caution when doing this, real damage can be caused.


 A good point brought up by amadeus.

----------


## Winston

Please keep this thread on topic. Any off topic or antagonistic posts will be removed. Please  take the time to familiarize yourselves with our Posting Rules & Terms of Service.

----------


## Baby John

> Baby John; not sure if you might have any insights on this, but I've got some scarring on my head from using a razor at one point.
> 
> Thank you.


 Heya clan,

I finally saw the quote button. Sheesh...

I'm very sorry that I don't have any solid answer for you. I came into this thread curious about the process and while there's lots of excellent info to be found, putting it all together and making an informed decision isn't easy...

Can a person prone to scarring needle safely?
What kind of results, good or bad, should they look for?
If the the scarring is shallow and the underlying structures are intact, what results should we look for?
Hair follicles don't form in scar tissue but, can we expect a cosmetic improvement in the appearance and what problems do we keep an eye out for so we don't make it worse?

The answers may around somewhere or, if not, a group can come together perhaps provide a definitive answer or move towards one. If they make an effort to do it right.

Otherwise it's one off anecdotes and that's not much better than taking advice from a guy on the corner with a liquor bottle in his hand...

----------


## doke

Dermaroller as said been out many years not a new topic so much as old news?

----------


## amadeus

Unfortunately, that's exactly what is happening on these forums. It's one thing to be excited about sharing information, but it's unfair to everyone to give unsubstantiated advice as if it were the gospel. 

Logically, if you are aggressively wounding your skin to the point of drawing blood on a regular basis, some scaring will occur., even if it is not visible to the naked eye. This is just the way our body heals. I would not use more than a .5 for home use and to be honest, I do not believe that any potential hair growth seen from rolling will be significant enough to make a cosmetic difference in the long term. I believe that if you don't adjust the hormones that are causing hair loss, then everything else might only be a temporary fix at best.




> Otherwise it's one off anecdotes and that's not much better than taking advice from a guy on the corner with a liquor bottle in his hand...

----------


## KeepHoping

There's some indication in the study that the results were long lasting after the completion of the 12 weeks... Do you guys think, if benefits are seen, that discontinuing minox after a 12 week course following the studies protocol that the benefits will be long lasting if someone is taking fin?

----------


## doke

> Seeing how I started the thread and would like to maintain it to stay on topic, I guess you could say it has something to do with me.
> 
> Feel free to take your off-topic comments elsewhere. Thank you.


 No need to as im informing you its old news this been using derma for many years on and off it may be of some help on bald shiny areas as i am trying it again.
Perhaps histogen with have to have products injected into scalp i do have some diabetic syringes but what would be the product to do this with minoxidil into the scalp may be helpful or it may give more side effects.
It is these shiny bald areas where it would be great to regenerate new hair i heard that some guys a few years ago regrew hair with neosil psi after only a few weeks and then have a month off and reuse again so if we could try labpe psi and dermaroll the area first this may help.

----------


## gainspotter

FFS! Nothing is ever simple where hair is concerned!
 :Mad:

----------


## amadeus

No one wants to hear this, but fin would be what makes the difference in those who respond well to it.  If DHT is strangling your hair follicles, the process will keep happening unless it's put in check. There is really no way around that fact at this point in time. Fin is the cornerstone to any effective treatment plan.




> There's some indication in the study that the results were long lasting after the completion of the 12 weeks... Do you guys think, if benefits are seen, that discontinuing minox after a 12 week course following the studies protocol that the benefits will be long lasting if someone is taking fin?

----------


## Baby John

> Logically, if you are aggressively wounding your skin to the point of drawing blood on a regular basis, some scaring will occur., even if it is not visible.


 Amadeus,

Aside from the fellow that pointed out a glaring conflict of interest issue with the research, you're the only person that has, in actuality, participated in a community trial.

90 plus pages...
2 actual participants...

Think I'll just sit back with the popcorn on this one.

----------


## brunobald

Maybe a safer way around these scarring issues is to test elsewhere on the body. I assume follicule generation is the same all over the body so we could test a small test area on some vellus hairs on the arm and see if we can turn them terminal?

This way we keep our scalps free of scars until we have the process nailed. What we need is a efficent process so you would have to derma roll way less. We can figure this out elsewhere on our bodys. It may also be easier to track progress as you can take pics yourself maybe get a hena tattoo marker or do it near a mole or some other body feature.

Then once we get repeatable results we can move to the scalp and test there. Then we will know the effect of DHT on the follicules.

----------


## thinningTooSoon

What happened to PrettyFly83, has there been any update on his progress? As far as I can see he is the only one who reported any regrowth...

----------


## DesperateOne

I came here expecting good news and instead it's all bad. It's like watching the news on tv, murder, crime, and catastrophes. I will just watch the show today and hopefully someone will call in to talk about the derma rolling and well I might stop coming here for a while, it's too depressing. I also agree that without fun this method is as good as useless, IMO.

----------


## Conpecia

> Amadeus,
> 
> Aside from the fellow that pointed out a glaring conflict of interest issue with the research, you're the only person that has, in actuality, participated in a community trial.
> 
> 90 plus pages...
> 2 actual participants...
> 
> Think I'll just sit back with the popcorn on this one.


 hi baby john, not sure i follow what you're getting at with this post? obviously lots of guys are dermarolling so i'm sure you don't mean that only 2 are dermarolling. obviously a community trial is not the same thing as a scientific "trial" in the 3-phase sense so you're not comparing those. so what is your point here?

i think it's better for everyone to run out and try this in a million different ways, rather than have every single one of us adhere to the exact same roller, the exact same brand of minox, the exact same length of time b/t rolling, etc. 

that seems like a monumental waste of time, basically trying to catch a never-before-seen fish with one hundred pieces of the same bait instead of one hundred different pieces of bait at the same time. 

sure, we'll sacrifice organization and whatnot, but if people start getting results on method x we can go down that alley and refine the documentation, and if no one is getting results on method y we can discontinue it for the time being, rather than wasting 6 months with one method, only to find no one responds, whereupon a second method is established for 6 months, etc. that is the one real advantage we have over the larger companies and we ought to take it.

i think i'm misreading your criticism honestly. is there a reason beyond poor documentation that you're upset with this "trial?"

----------


## hellouser

> i think i'm misreading your criticism honestly. is there a reason beyond poor documentation that you're upset with this "trial?"


 LOL, what do people expect, FDA approved documentation? If thats the case, you'd end up waiting 5+ years.

----------


## Conpecia

> Unfortunately, that's exactly what is happening on these forums. It's one thing to be excited about sharing information, but it's unfair to everyone to give unsubstantiated advice as if it were the gospel. 
> 
> Logically, if you are aggressively wounding your skin to the point of drawing blood on a regular basis, some scaring will occur., even if it is not visible to the naked eye. This is just the way our body heals. I would not use more than a .5 for home use and to be honest, I do not believe that any potential hair growth seen from rolling will be significant enough to make a cosmetic difference in the long term. I believe that if you don't adjust the hormones that are causing hair loss, then everything else might only be a temporary fix at best.


 You tell everyone not to give unsubstantiated advice and then IMMEDIATELY advise people not to use anything more than .5mm, without ANY documentation of the negative effects of using 1.5mm once weekly and following a published study. 

I understand and actually appreciate your cautionary approach, but this is complete hypocrisy. You have no evidence that 1.5mm will do anything beyond what is suggested in the study, which is regrow a substantial amount of hair.

I agree that without an AA the gains me be temporary, but everyone is freaking out about the same type conjecture and assumption for which they've gotten so excited. There's no evidence it hurts. There's some evidence it helps. 1-0 good guys.

----------


## Jazz1

> I use regain foam in the mornings because it's not greasy and flows with the weeds I have left, then I use lipogaine liquid at night.  I think liquid is best but I'd be damned if I use it before I go to work or out in public


 Iv been doing this last week I ditched regaine foam night started lipogaine instead, does it work?

----------


## amadeus

Actually, I stated that "I" would not use more the a .5 for home use. I wasn't  advising anyone of anything. Sorry if you find my comments hypocritical, I understand that you really want this to work for you. I'm just trying to bring some logic into the mix.

Perhaps if you guys could check the emotions at the door, these discussions would become even more productive.

Just as there is no evidence that aggressively  micro-needling "hurts" as you put it, there is no evidence to the contrary either.





> You tell everyone not to give unsubstantiated advice and then IMMEDIATELY advise people not to use anything more than .5mm, without ANY documentation of the negative effects of using 1.5mm once weekly and following a published study. 
> 
> I understand and actually appreciate your cautionary approach, but this is complete hypocrisy. You have no evidence that 1.5mm will do anything beyond what is suggested in the study, which is regrow a substantial amount of hair.
> 
> I agree that without an AA the gains me be temporary, but everyone is freaking out about the same type conjecture and assumption for which they've gotten so excited. There's no evidence it hurts. There's some evidence it helps. 1-0 good guys.

----------


## lilpauly

Guys my camera is on its way and I got thousands of hairs and the dermaroller is part of the reason !!!!!!!!

----------


## Conpecia

> Actually, I stated that "I" would not use more the a .5 for home use. I wasn't  advising anyone of anything. Sorry if you find my comments hypocritical, I understand that you really want this to work for you. I'm just trying to bring some logic into the mix.
> 
> Perhaps if you guys could check the emotions at the door, these discussions would become even more productive.
> 
> Just as there is no evidence that aggressively  micro-needling "hurts" as you put it, there is no evidence to the contrary either.


 ah, but there is evidence to the contrary. i.e. the study. hence this thread.

not trying to being emotional here, just concerned that you have no empirical evidence before making a claim that could derail this entire project.

and again, i appreciate that you're only being cautious and trying to help people not get scarred. but there's no evidence of this happening with dermarolling 1x/week at 1.5mm.

----------


## Baby John

> hi baby john, not sure i follow what you're getting at with this post?


 Hiya Con,

My last post.

This is supposedly a community trial, a group of people working together to develope an effective treatment based on a previous study.

As a community:

You have failed to take a critical look at the very study you wish to emulate.
You have failed to assess the risks which may be involved.
You have failed to to provide any method to reliably measure efficacy.

What you are is a bunch of people that read a few paragraphs of text, saw a couple of before and after pictures, and individually start pulling the trigger to just, as one poster put it, put some 1mm holes in your scalp once a week.

Golly, that's nothing...

Unless you do a little math!

If you're doing the entire top of your head, that's at least 10 meters of wounds depth wise over 12 weeks in the very place you want hair to grow. And you're doing this without making a single informed decision...

Man Up!

Good luck and goodbye.

----------


## Borealis

Is anyone in contact with a Dermatologist or anyone who could advise us on the scarring concern?

Why is nothing ever simple with this stupid thing!  :Frown: 

Also, PrettyFly was meant to be getting in touch with the people that conducted the study. Did he manage to get a reply off them?

----------


## amadeus

Well put Baby John. It's sometimes difficult to attempt to bring logic into the mix when we're dealing with such intense emotions. 




> Hiya Con,
> 
> My last post.
> 
> This is supposedly a community trial, a group of people working together to develope an effective treatment based on a previous study.
> 
> As a community:
> 
> You have failed to take a critical look at the very study you wish to emulate.
> ...

----------


## hellouser

> What you are is a bunch of people that read a few paragraphs of text, saw a couple of before and after pictures, and individually start pulling the trigger to just, as one poster put it, put some 1mm holes in your scalp once a week.


 That is offensive as well as a lie. All the articles and publications I've posted throughout this thread have supported wounding induced hair growth.

As a whole, our job is to look into it more and see how we can use the studies to our advantage, rather than have one individual slam the entire project.

----------


## amadeus

I don't think Baby John is slamming anything. He's being logical and realistic.  We would all love to improve our chances of growing more hair,  but the simplistic view documented by most of the posters on this thread only highlights what Baby John has so eloquently pointed out.




> That is offensive as well as a lie. All the articles and publications I've posted throughout this thread have supported wounding induced hair growth.
> 
> As a whole, our job is to look into it more and see how we can use the studies to our advantage, rather than have one individual slam the entire project.

----------


## Chromeo

I don't think there is really much point grumping and groaning that the trial is not being adhered to strictly by everyone. It isn't highschool, we don't all have to do things the way teacher says... Sorry if anyone is unhappy about it, but frankly expecting everyone on this thread to do the exact same thing here is somewhat unrealistic.

People are in the middle of regimes that they are not willing to completely drop altogether just so they can replicate this study accurately. However, many are quite willing to add dermarolling into the mix. These folks are perfectly welcome in my view to chime in and give us an idea whether or not they are seeing any improvement or not. I think it's valuable information, regardless of whether or not they are sticking to the "rules" of the original study.

----------


## Conpecia

Will someone please simply provide evidence that either a) the study was inaccurate in some form, or b) dermarolling one's scalp with a 1.5mm roller once weekly is somehow dangerous in any way beyond not taking care to prevent an infection. I am sick of individuals demanding "realistic" and "logical" approaches, and when I in turn can point to a published study from a department of dermatology with photographs, AND photographs from a member of this very forum who has absolutely no agenda, AND the fact that this dermarolling technique has been used for decades without notions of scarring or cancer, AND the theories and studies upon which Follica, the most important company in the balding world, are founded on the wounding approach, AND the fact that an indian clinic cannot benefit from a study involving minoxidil and derma rollers which are purchased on amazon... in spite of it all, it's not enough and we're all somehow uninformed or foolish or we are rushing to take part in some snake oil approach having done no research. And yet when I try to get a single speck of evidence from these individuals as to the apparent dangers of this method they have nothing. Absolutely nothing. No evidence. No studies. No photographs. No companies. No links. I just do not understand. If you have evidence then show me and I will absolutely consider it. If you have an idea of a possible risk then state your words of caution and I for one will appreciate them. But if you are simply going to criticize and belittle the very real and very brave efforts of the community, and in particular people like Hellouser, from the safety of your digital perch while the rest of us men are in the trenches, all merely because we aren't doing it as well as you can imagine or as you would like it done, then yes, leave this thread and do not post here again, because I have absolutely no respect for you.

----------


## lilpauly

1.5 mm dermaroller can cause bleeding.....

----------


## UK_

> 1.5 mm dermaroller can cause bleeding.....


 Lilpauly have you tried dermarolling + injecting FGF9 with WNT7A???

I really think we should set up a study or something into growth factors for hair loss, I am willing to help with funding.

----------


## lilpauly

> Lilpauly have you tried dermarolling + injecting FGF9 with WNT7A???
> 
> I really think we should set up a study or something into growth factors for hair loss, I am willing to help with funding.


 No man I never injected anything into my scalp. Fgf9 seems promising . I will also pay as well, we must know long term sides etc, . Based on information in the grow factors from Kane there were no known sides in clinical studies but farrel my friend from
 Hlh said there could be sides . Any1 who users experimentals please realize potential sides. also considder any sides when using any treatment

----------


## UK_

> No man I never injected anything into my scalp. Fgf9 seems promising . I will also pay as well, we must know long term sides etc, . Based on information in the grow factors from Kane there were no known sides but farrel my friend fro
>  Hlh said there could be sides . Any1 who users experimentals please realize potential sides.


 What do you think about potential for heart failure on CB?  Do you think boldy was right about heart failure sides???

----------


## Hicks

> Iv been doing this last week I ditched regaine foam night started lipogaine instead, does it work?


 Not sure, I think it's one of those things you'll notice once you stop. I like to think liquid is better but it makes my hair feel like crap so it comes down to quality oflife style.

----------


## lilpauly

> What do you think about potential for heart failure on CB?  Do you think boldy was right about heart failure sides???


 well in the studies by cosmo no sides where reported, people have reported irregualr heart beats with cb, ru and minox. in fact minox landed jonson123 in the hospital. minox at large makes my eyes black,

----------


## clandestine

> well in the studies by cosmo no sides where reported, people have reported irregualr heart beats with cb, ru and minox. in fact minox landed jonson123 in the hospital. minox at large makes my eyes black,


 That went away when you discontinued minox use, correct?

----------


## lilpauly

> That went away when you discontinued minox use, correct?


 I got very bad circles with ******* by dr parks! It was awful I wax dizzy as well. 5% was ok , I'm trying dr klieins product now

----------


## doke

> That is offensive as well as a lie. All the articles and publications I've posted throughout this thread have supported wounding induced hair growth.
> 
> As a whole, our job is to look into it more and see how we can use the studies to our advantage, rather than have one individual slam the entire project.


 Theres nothing offensive about babyjohns remark we are free to make our own mind up and as i have said dermarolling has been with us a long time you did not invent it as i have been using for two years and posted on other sites about it as said it may help but its no cure for mpb.

----------


## gainspotter

> Theres nothing offensive about babyjohns remark we are free to make our own mind up and as i have said dermarolling has been with us a long time you did not invent it as i have been using for two years and posted on other sites about it as said it may help but its no cure for mpb.


 So because someone has tried this and it hasn't worked, eventhough the study hasn't been around for 2 years probably, we should all pack in and give up. This thread is starting to get stupid.

----------


## doke

show me proof of anyone who has regrown any hair with dermaroller i as keep saying not to use or try it as it may help when using minoxidil but the wounding of the scalp is a different game and we are not sure how to yet do this without causing danger to ourselves ie: infection although i use copper peptides with scalp roller as said for over two years now but we know they use it on skin for a very long time.
The scalp wounding thing sounds interesting as there was the old isra piliel on burns on scalp and the topical culture medium piliel which regrew hair back on the burn sites.

----------


## walrus

> show me proof of anyone who has regrown any hair with dermaroller


 Have you even read this thread, or are you coming here with preconceptions? 




> we are not sure how to yet do this without causing danger to ourselves ie: infection


 Disinfecting an object between use isn't exactly difficult. It's not like people are sharing dermarollers.

----------


## doke

By the way the piliel trials were a gel culture which when applied to burn wounds on scalp in two weeks they were amazed that not only had they healed but where they thought no hair would regrow it was regrowing so many of us were excited and wanted to get hold of this gel but it never happened until Dr Ella lindenbaum had talks with a company osmotics and they produced topical fns and many found it was not the original trial product that had insulin growth factors in a medium culture gel.
I think to mass produce this may have been the problem plus the medical fda may not have approved it but the dr still says it will work but i was wondering about trying fns with dermaroller as the wounding maybe the say damage that burns did to the scalp and then apply the fns.
There is an interview at hairlosshelp with dr lindenbaum about piliel and also some pics if you search for Dr Ella Lindenbaum and topical piliel for hair loss its quite interesting.

----------


## doke

> Have you even read this thread, or are you coming here with preconceptions? 
> 
> 
> 
> Disinfecting an object between use isn't exactly difficult. It's not like people are sharing dermarollers.


 Hi Walrus as i say i have and still use dermaroller and find it does help but its finding the right product to use with it and as said in my post about piliel it maybe good to try that with the derma or even copper peptides as they help with wound healing and hair loss.

----------


## the_dude78

> show me proof of anyone who has regrown any hair with dermaroller i as keep saying not to use or try it as it may help when using minoxidil but the wounding of the scalp is a different game and we are not sure how to yet do this without causing danger to ourselves ie: infection although i use copper peptides with scalp roller as said for over two years now but we know they use it on skin for a very long time.
> The scalp wounding thing sounds interesting as there was the old isra piliel on burns on scalp and the topical culture medium piliel which regrew hair back on the burn sites.


 doke, people have been using the dermaroller all over the body for _years_.It's not difficult to avoid infections, and I've never heard of anyone getting an infection or done harm to themselves.

EDIT: And could we just let this experiment run for at least 12 weeks before we shoot it down. People have been using the dermaroller for baldness before, yes, but never the way it was done in the study.

----------


## doke

hey dude yes i know i get pimples anyway sometimes on scalp without dermaroller it must be acne and i always disinfect my roller with dettol infact you can wash your hair with dettol for dandruff as long as you dilute it.

----------


## vanityhair

Will a "Surgical Spirit" (from Boots, UK) containing Ethanol and Methanol be sufficient for sterilizing the Dermaroller?

Thanks in advance.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> well in the studies by cosmo no sides where reported, people have reported irregualr heart beats with cb, ru and minox. in fact minox landed jonson123 in the hospital. minox at large makes my eyes black,


 minox gave me dark circles too... and water retention in the face.

Probably heart issues too, but wasn't looking out for them at that time.

Gho gave me some minox after the treatment, and it actually worked pretty good. Whatever formula he gave me kinda smelt good too. It was in a HASCI bottle, so I think he may whip it up himself.

----------


## Conpecia

> show me proof of anyone who has regrown any hair with dermaroller i as keep saying not to use or try it as it may help when using minoxidil but the wounding of the scalp is a different game and we are not sure how to yet do this without causing danger to ourselves ie: infection although i use copper peptides with scalp roller as said for over two years now but we know they use it on skin for a very long time.
> The scalp wounding thing sounds interesting as there was the old isra piliel on burns on scalp and the topical culture medium piliel which regrew hair back on the burn sites.


 doke please see prettyfly's results in this very thread, showing significant regrowth over i believe 2 or 3 months with the roller and minox.

----------


## Dan26

My friend is reporting results with minox/dermarolling. He is not on this forum though, and he had used minox in the past and was a good responder. Interesting to see if his results will be even better this time around (1 month in so far)

----------


## Hicks

With the lack of motorators keeping threads on track, I would be adding to my ignore list if I was some of you guys.  In the little time I've been on this forum I think I added 8.

----------


## the_dude78

Any idea when it would be wise to add Nizoral? I mean, can I do it the day after or should I wait a few days?

----------


## doke

> doke please see prettyfly's results in this very thread, showing significant regrowth over i believe 2 or 3 months with the roller and minox.


 many thanks con i will check it out.

----------


## doke

> Will a "Surgical Spirit" (from Boots, UK) containing Ethanol and Methanol be sufficient for sterilizing the Dermaroller?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 Good old dettol is easy to buy and used can be used neat on derma or just dilute in water or alchohol can be used to sterilise but never had a problem with dettol.

----------


## UK_

> I got very bad circles with ******* by dr parks! It was awful I wax dizzy as well. 5% was ok , I'm trying dr klieins product now


 That's likely to happen I mean Minox lowers blood pressure so you feel light headed and basically like your going to pass out.

----------


## doke

> Here's my last dermarolling session from a couple days ago:
> 
> 
> 
> It's my right temple, as you can see I'm far more harsh on my skin now.


 hi hell i think you have gone too far as you do not really need to make your scalp bleed and i got this advice from australia dermerskin as they support using the roller with once a day application of 5% minox and then after minox has dried apply copper peptide spray and my hair at six months was getting good results.

----------


## doke

> That's likely to happen I mean Minox lowers blood pressure so you feel light headed and basically like your going to pass out.


 if the minox gets absorbed better then perhaps all we need to use is 2% minoxidil lotion or a 3% and at two times a day may not get side effects so bad..

----------


## lilpauly

> That's likely to happen I mean Minox lowers blood pressure so you feel light headed and basically like your going to pass out.


 It was dr klieins ******* and perfect image 15 that did it to me , very bad

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

wait 24h before application


> if the minox gets absorbed better then perhaps all we need to use is 2% minoxidil lotion or a 3% and at two times a day may not get side effects so bad..

----------


## HARIRI

> It was dr klieins ******* and perfect image 15 that did it to me , very bad


 You mean Dr Lee *******  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I have been using it for 3 years once before sleep, no sides at all, also the perfect image before they add a new ingredient (Retinol) that makes it yellow and extremely sticky.

They wrote about it the following:-

ISSUE: Perfect Image Solutions recalled all lots of these topical hair regrowth products because they are deemed “unapproved new drugs” under FDA regulations, and may present potential health hazards.

Use of these topical products containing 15&#37; and 10% Minoxidil have not been shown to be safe, and could pose a risk to the general public due to the possibility of systemic absorption. Skin abrasions or irritations, such as psoriasis or sunburn, could increase the systemic absorption of topically administered Minoxidil. Minoxidil 15% and 10% could cause low blood pressure, heart palpitations and associated cardiac symptoms. Azelaic acid contained in the topical products could make the skin where it is applied more sensitive to sunburn. Ketoconazole contained in the shampoo product could cause hair discoloration and abnormal hair texture, removal of the curl from permanently waved hair, itching, rash, skin irritation and dry skin. Salicylic acid contained in the shampoo could cause mild, temporary burning, itching, irritation, or stinging.

Check this out: http://www.fda.gov/safety/Recalls/ucm288505.htm

What makes me sick is how FDA states that and they are leaving* Minoxidil Max* alone, check out their website !!! Its unfair really!!!  :Confused:

----------


## walrus

> if the minox gets absorbed better then perhaps all we need to use is 2&#37; minoxidil lotion or a 3% and at two times a day may not get side effects so bad..


 This is nothing to do with absorption. Please read the thread.

----------


## chimera

> This is nothing to do with absorption. Please read the thread.


  I think he means that, even if this has nothing to do with absorption, if minox absorption increases with the dermaroller (which it does), reducing minox percentage could be helpful for those with minox side effects

----------


## Pentarou

This thread has become a total anarchy, people taking this completely off-topic and not even trying to understand that the regrowth is meant to be due to wounding and recovery, *not* minox absorption. Any potential useful information is being drowned out by the incessant dabble.

----------


## Chromeo

> This thread has become a total anarchy, people taking this completely off-topic and not even trying to understand that the regrowth is meant to be due to wounding and recovery, *not* minox absorption. Any potential useful information is being drowned out by the incessant dabble.


 I agree. I was enjoying this thread until one individual in particular jumped in and started derailing the topic with his long-winded, nonsensical posts. Where is that "ignore" button at?

----------


## lilpauly

> You mean Dr Lee ******* 
> 
> I have been using it for 3 years once before sleep, no sides at all, also the perfect image before they add a new ingredient (Retinol) that makes it yellow and extremely sticky.
> 
> They wrote about it the following:-
> 
> ISSUE: Perfect Image Solutions recalled all lots of these topical hair regrowth products because they are deemed “unapproved new drugs” under FDA regulations, and may present potential health hazards.
> 
> Use of these topical products containing 15&#37; and 10% Minoxidil have not been shown to be safe, and could pose a risk to the general public due to the possibility of systemic absorption. Skin abrasions or irritations, such as psoriasis or sunburn, could increase the systemic absorption of topically administered Minoxidil. Minoxidil 15% and 10% could cause low blood pressure, heart palpitations and associated cardiac symptoms. Azelaic acid contained in the topical products could make the skin where it is applied more sensitive to sunburn. Ketoconazole contained in the shampoo product could cause hair discoloration and abnormal hair texture, removal of the curl from permanently waved hair, itching, rash, skin irritation and dry skin. Salicylic acid contained in the shampoo could cause mild, temporary burning, itching, irritation, or stinging.
> ...


  no man when dr lee got shut down dr parks made a version that ate hairlines, smelled like pai t thinner, dry tired eyes , heart burn, dizziness,ect. Only worse then dr parks chemical paint thinner was oral spiro . Spiro made my **** 2 inches smaller

----------


## lilpauly

Hi man yes it was sticky...... I bought perfect images of off amazon cuz of the reviews . No good

----------


## clandestine

Oral spiro or topical made your **** smaller, lilpauly?

----------


## SolarPowered Man

> Any idea when it would be wise to add Nizoral? I mean, can I do it the day after or should I wait a few days?


 I remember reading it somewhere on this thread, 4 to 5 days after rolling.

----------


## HARIRI

> no man when dr lee got shut down dr parks made a version that ate hairlines, smelled like pai t thinner, dry tired eyes , heart burn, dizziness,ect. Only worse then dr parks chemical paint thinner was oral spiro . Spiro made my **** 2 inches smaller


 2 inches WOW, Finasteride made my thing one inch smaller. So Spiro is worse. However I restored this inch after 2 months of quitting it. Damn Hair Loss  :Mad:  :Mad:  :Mad: 

lilpauly, I'm thinking of getting a plain non sticky Minoxidil 10&#37;. Some said in India there are 3 brands of pure minoxidil of 10% solution and one of them is (Minoxytop 10). How about you? Any idea Bro?

----------


## john2399

> 2 inches WOW, Finasteride made my thing one inch smaller. So Spiro is worse. However I restored this inch after 2 months of quitting it. Damn Hair Loss 
> 
> lilpauly, I'm thinking of getting a plain non sticky Minoxidil 10%. Some said in India there are 3 brands of pure minoxidil of 10% solution and one of them is (Minoxytop 10). How about you? Any idea Bro?


 Dont spread that nonsense around. No way in hell finasteride made your shit smaller. Shit people say now.

----------


## hellouser

> Dont spread that nonsense around. No way in hell finasteride made your shit smaller. Shit people say now.


 Testicular atrophy and weaker/softer erections are real side effects of DHT inhibitors.

----------


## john2399

> Testicular atrophy and weaker/softer erections are real side effects of DHT inhibitors.


 Yeah in less then 2 percent in men. We get it, some guys can't take propecia but the drug works well, way to many people bash it without trying it.

----------


## chimera

Way too many people say way too many pople bash it without even trying it...

Whatever guys, let's not start it again, let's keep the fin disscusions out of here...

----------


## stilltrying

I don't use finasteride, but sometimes my erection is harder than usual and sometimes a bit softer. Now let's get back on topic? I think we're a little bit lost here.

----------


## gainspotter

If you want to start talking about fin, use the other thousand threads that talk about fin, or the other thousand websites that talk about fin, everyone already knows what fin does, it has been said a thousand times. Let's talk about the relevant topic of this thread until it goes back to fin.

----------


## doke

> I think he means that, even if this has nothing to do with absorption, if minox absorption increases with the dermaroller (which it does), reducing minox percentage could be helpful for those with minox side effects


 Many thanks chimera thats the message.

----------


## doke

> This thread has become a total anarchy, people taking this completely off-topic and not even trying to understand that the regrowth is meant to be due to wounding and recovery, *not* minox absorption. Any potential useful information is being drowned out by the incessant dabble.


 Pentarou wounding on its own will not recover lost hair in male pattern loss period.
You also need something else either topical to assist and oral as we would all know by now  that dermarolling  is a cure and its not.
We are all at this forum to discuss mpb and what can help and what may work and i think myself that minoxidil plus dermaroller once a day and either copper peptides of even try osmotics fns to assist the healing of the scalp.

----------


## walrus

> This thread has become a total anarchy, people taking this completely off-topic and not even trying to understand that the regrowth is meant to be due to wounding and recovery, *not* minox absorption. Any potential useful information is being drowned out by the incessant dabble.


 This. Some people just don't seem to be able (or want) to think about it in light of recent information and studies available to us.

----------


## doke

some people are excited about nothing i should know been in the hair loss game for over 30years.
Seen these types of posts many times and in the end comes to nothing as i keep saying been dermarolling over two years now with different sizes of rollers and using many topicals and its no miracle treatment and there was some saying derma may damage hair so thats why you do not want to wound the scalp too much in other words go lightly.

----------


## doke

> Testicular atrophy and weaker/softer erections are real side effects of DHT inhibitors.


 hahaha now iv heard everything by the way hell are you omg the laser helmet man?

----------


## DesperateOne

It's been a while, are more people seeing results now?

----------


## hellouser

> It's been a while, are more people seeing results now?


 Nothing on my end. I'm still shedding heavily for nearly 2 months.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Nothing on my end. I'm still shedding heavily for nearly 2 months.


 Nothing on my end either, all I can say is that my skin got thicker and the pain is not so bad anymore. Looks like another bust, how would we be able to purchase that FGF-9? Would kane make it if we asked for it? I think you would be the ideal person to try it, hellouser.

----------


## hellouser

> Nothing on my end either, all I can say is that my skin got thicker and the pain is not so bad anymore. Looks like another bust, how would we be able to purchase that FGF-9? Would kane make it if we asked for it? I think you would be the ideal person to try it, hellouser.


 No way man, I dont want to risk anything, lol. I think YOU would be the ideal person to try it. Haha.

----------


## evasive

Hellouser and DesperateOne, have you guys been drawing blood per your dermarolling sessions?

If you haven't, maybe try a 2.0mm or 2.5mm and continue?

No pain no gain.

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser and DesperateOne, have you guys been drawing blood per your dermarolling sessions?
> 
> If you haven't, maybe try a 2.0mm or 2.5mm and continue?
> 
> No pain no gain.


 Here's a picture of a close up of my right temple after one of my dermarolling sessions:

----------


## Chromeo

We'll take that as a "yes". Hahaha.

----------


## LevonHelms

> It's been a while, are more people seeing results now?


 I don't know if it's hairs that were just coming into a growth phase anyway or if they are a result of the roller, but I have some newbies coming in here and there. They look thick and healthy, and are definitely growing fast.  But, it's just a few and not cosmetically significant..yet. :Wink:

----------


## the_dude78

> I remember reading it somewhere on this thread, 4 to 5 days after rolling.


 Thanks!

----------


## hellouser

1000th Post.

Down with hair loss.

----------


## clandestine

> I don't know if it's hairs that were just coming into a growth phase anyway or if they are a result of the roller, but I have some newbies coming in here and there. They look thick and healthy, and are definitely growing fast.  But, it's just a few and not cosmetically significant..yet.


 What strength minox are you using? And how frequently?

----------


## LevonHelms

> What strength minox are you using? And how frequently?


 I've been using 5% foam once nightly.

----------


## clandestine

> I've been using 5% foam once nightly.


 Curious, where did you purchase the 5% foam?

I can only find 5% liquid, 2% foam OTC.

----------


## Pentarou

*Tracy C*, how are you managing to dermaroll with longer hair? Any tips? Hope you are doing well at the moment, incidentally.

----------


## goingquick

Rolled for the first time today.  Hurts but it's not that bad.  Disappointing to see a lack of results so far in the thread.  




> *Tracy C*, how are you managing to dermaroll with longer hair? Any tips? Hope you are doing well at the moment, incidentally.


 Don't roll back and forth.

----------


## Tracy C

> *Tracy C*, how are you managing to dermaroll with longer hair? Any tips? Hope you are doing well at the moment, incidentally.


 I haven't started yet.  I am still waiting for my roller to arrive.

I plan to try using plastic wrap in the same way that it is used to make a mold of your scalp when fitting for a wig or topper, then roll through the wrap.

----------


## LevonHelms

> Curious, where did you purchase the 5&#37; foam?
> 
> I can only find 5% liquid, 2% foam OTC.


 Are you in the U.S.? I pick mine up at Sam's Wharehouse in packs of 4.

----------


## doke

Those study pics seem impressive but if you use a 0.5 roller or the 1.5 as long as you take it easy you could try using it everyday or everyother day and use minox once a day use it twice until you get results then you could try once a day.
Im going to be using my new 1.5 titanium needle roller instead of the 0.5 but still not sure whether to use the study once a week.
Also going to use my minox and lasr comb plus dutasteride lets rock and roll haha.
By the way guys hell i was out of order with remarks made and am sorry for that as most know me as placid im not sure what got into me that day.
Tried to pm you hell but could not?

----------


## fred970

You should not roll everyday, or put minox within 24 hours after the rolling. Why don't your roll every ten minutes?

----------


## PrettyFly83

Hey all my Balding Brothers and Sister

As promised here are my 3 month update photo's which I'm posting for all to gauge the effectiveness of this treatment.

To summarize, I haven't changed anything in my regime from my first posts on page 6-8 of this thread as I didnt want to blur any results by changing techniques. My understanding was the original purpose of this thread  by Hellouser was either to replicate the study or undertake a regime with slight variations on the technique. I'm planning to stick with my regime until I see someone yield better results with theirs. In no way am I saying mine was better than the studies, I had just been doing it for 2 months so thought to carry on.

Ive tried to match close ups over various area's of my shiny NW6 head to compare each area individually. Sorry if they are not exactly correctly positioned as these were all taken with an  Galaxy SIII but I think they show enough detail.

Would like to hear everyone views on them, whether there has been any progress. Be gentle with your comments please, this is my head after all :Embarrassment: 

For those using this technique, please please please keep going, it's only been 1 month since this thread started and the only way we can verify or disprove the study is with multiple cases. Close ups before and during are the only way to see if anything is happening as its VERY slow in my case so please take baseline pictures.

Remember to click ZOOM button twice to get full size, here we go:
Front Start of Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/Derma%20Roller%20and%20Minox/2013-05-20094342_zpsb0ced7ac.jpg.html?sort=3&o=9
Front 3 Months into Treatment:
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=1

Top: Start of Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...ml?sort=3&o=10
Top: 3 Months into Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=3

Crown: Start of Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=8
Crown: 3 Months into Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=4

Back: Start of Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...ml?sort=3&o=11
Back: 3 Months into Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=4

Left Temple: *1 Month* into Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=7
Left Temple: 3 Months into Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=0

Right Temple: *1 Month* into Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=6
Right Temple: 3 Months into Treatment
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=2
I only took temple shots at 1 month into treatment.

Sorry its so many.

My view: Regrowth is still happening but more slowly now, I think Im seeing new very fine hairs sprouting from my slick temples but can't be sure as the old photo's go blurry there. Older regrowth seems to be thickening but is VERY slow. There are thousand of black dots just below the skin and I'm hoping those are hairs resting.

----------


## doke

> You should not roll everyday, or put minox within 24 hours after the rolling. Why don't your roll every ten minutes?


 hi fred no im going by the australia dermaroller skin care centre they also have a video and they say use a 0.5mm roller everyday and minox once a day.
But the study here does seem more impressive with the 1.5mm roller note they do say in the study not to use as hell does and cause bleeding that is over the top i will use as per study only to cause slight redness of the scalp.

----------


## Koga

Hey guys, 

I jumped on the dermarolling 4 weeks ago, so it'll be my 5th time rolling tomorrow. 

I just want to report my results so far.

I use a 1.5mm roller, once a week.
Rogaine foam 2x a day except on day of rolling
Started on Propecia on week 2. 
I keep my head buzzed, so its easy for me to track any changes

After first week I saw some white fuzz on left side of my head.
By the second week there was alot more white fuzz on both sides and two or three black hairs on left side. 
This week some of the fuzz are starting to turn black, and there are few more black thicker hairs coming out. 

I take pics every week. The camera doesn't pick up on the fuzz, but the amount of regrowth is pretty noticible by eye. I'm only 4 weeks in so I'm pretty excited and suprised I'm getting results that fast. The propecia is probably contributing also, but its still pretty fast. I'm not sure how much regrowth ill get, but hopefully it'll continue to grow.

----------


## Koga

Hey guys, 

I jumped on the dermarolling 4 weeks ago, so it'll be my 5th time rolling tomorrow. 

I just want to report my results so far.

I use a 1.5mm roller, once a week.
Rogaine foam 2x a day except on day of rolling
Started on Propecia on week 2. 
I keep my head buzzed, so its easy for me to track any changes

After first week I saw some white fuzz on left side of my head.
By the second week there was alot more white fuzz on both sides and two or three black hairs on left side. 
This week some of the fuzz are starting to turn black, and there are few more black thicker hairs coming out. 

I take pics every week. The camera doesn't pick up on the fuzz, but the amount of regrowth is pretty noticible by eye. I'm only 4 weeks in so I'm pretty excited and suprised I'm getting results that fast. The propecia is probably contributing also, but its still pretty fast. I'm not sure how much regrowth ill get, but hopefully it'll continue to grow.

----------


## HARIRI

> Hey guys, 
> 
> I jumped on the dermarolling 4 weeks ago, so it'll be my 5th time rolling tomorrow. 
> 
> I just want to report my results so far.
> 
> I use a 1.5mm roller, once a week.
> Rogaine foam 2x a day except on day of rolling
> Started on Propecia on week 2. 
> ...


 Great update Bro but the problem is we don't know if your regrowth is because of Dermarolling or Finasteride!!!  :Confused:

----------


## bombarie

Amazing regrowt!!!! I also see alot of black dots! I think they will grow out as thick hairs!! Congrats to your new hairs mate :Smile:  Very interesting




> Hey all my Balding Brothers and Sister
> 
> As promised here are my 3 month update photo's which I'm posting for all to gauge the effectiveness of this treatment.
> 
> To summarize, I haven't changed anything in my regime from my first posts on page 6-8 of this thread as I didnt want to blur any results by changing techniques. My understanding was the original purpose of this thread  by Hellouser was either to replicate the study or undertake a regime with slight variations on the technique. I'm planning to stick with my regime until I see someone yield better results with theirs. In no way am I saying mine was better than the studies, I had just been doing it for 2 months so thought to carry on.
> 
> Ive tried to match close ups over various area's of my shiny NW6 head to compare each area individually. Sorry if they are not exactly correctly positioned as these were all taken with an  Galaxy SIII but I think they show enough detail.
> 
> Would like to hear everyone views on them, whether there has been any progress. Be gentle with your comments please, this is my head after all
> ...

----------


## bombarie

good results Flysurfer! I really see alot of black dots, those must be new hairs!
Good pictures and congrats to you

----------


## hellouser

> Hey all my Balding Brothers and Sister
> 
> As promised here are my 3 month update photo's which I'm posting for all to gauge the effectiveness of this treatment.
> 
> To summarize, I haven't changed anything in my regime from my first posts on page 6-8 of this thread as I didnt want to blur any results by changing techniques. My understanding was the original purpose of this thread  by Hellouser was either to replicate the study or undertake a regime with slight variations on the technique. I'm planning to stick with my regime until I see someone yield better results with theirs. In no way am I saying mine was better than the studies, I had just been doing it for 2 months so thought to carry on.
> 
> Ive tried to match close ups over various area's of my shiny NW6 head to compare each area individually. Sorry if they are not exactly correctly positioned as these were all taken with an  Galaxy SIII but I think they show enough detail.
> 
> Would like to hear everyone views on them, whether there has been any progress. Be gentle with your comments please, this is my head after all
> ...


 Holy shit.

Thats all I've got to say.

----------


## brunobald

Intresting to note the hairs on the crown are growing in the classic whorl pattern suggesting its regeneration of older follicule rather than new ones.

----------


## brunobald

> Great update Bro but the problem is we don't know if your regrowth is because of Dermarolling or Finasteride!!!


 Could be a super responder to fin, but fin rarely if ever grows back terminal hairs on previously bald areas.

----------


## gainspotter

@prettyfly: that regrowth is amazing! So pleased for you. Maybe we don't need to draw blood afterall.

----------


## walrus

Very impressive PrettyFly83

----------


## Koga

> Great update Bro but the problem is we don't know if your regrowth is because of Dermarolling or Finasteride!!!


 Sorry Hariri, I know finasteride confounds my results somewhat, but for what it's worth, I definitly saw fuzz by the end of the first week before taking the finasteride. Also I was on 5mg finasteride which I cut into quarters, for about 6 months where I did not see much results, so I quit taking it about 2 years ago. 

This time I am taking the 1mg propecia. If it was purely the propecia responsible for the regrowth, wouldn't it take longer for it to kick in? I'm seeing results in just a few weeks.

----------


## clandestine

PrettyFly; what mm size roller are you using?

Or anyone else that knows?

----------


## LevonHelms

Thanks for the update PrettyFly!

I see more regrowth there man, all over your dome! Looking good, keep it up bro.

----------


## Buster

> PrettyFly; what mm size roller are you using?
> 
> Or anyone else that knows?


 Quoted from PrettyFly's post:




> My derma roller is a standard 0.5mm 192 needle titanium tipped model

----------


## clandestine

> Quoted from PrettyFly's post:


 Thanks Buster

----------


## greatjob!

> Great update Bro but the problem is we don't know if your regrowth is because of Dermarolling or Finasteride!!!


 At only 4 weeks on finasteride there is no way he would see any regrowth from it, in fact he is more likely to shed hair at this point than regrow it with fin.

----------


## john2399

What is prettyfly's regimen?

----------


## hellouser

> At only 4 weeks on finasteride there is no way he would see any regrowth from it, in fact he is more likely to shed hair at this point than regrow it with fin.


 Yup. Also, Minoxidil without dermarolling usually gives a bad shed in the first 1-3 months and results don't come in until much later, sometimes 6-12 months!

----------


## Buster

> Hey guys, 
> 
> I jumped on the dermarolling 4 weeks ago, so it'll be my 5th time rolling tomorrow. 
> 
> I just want to report my results so far.
> 
> I use a 1.5mm roller, once a week.
> Rogaine foam 2x a day except on day of rolling


 Hi, did you just start Minox, or have you been on it for a while?

----------


## Chromeo

Very impressed with the results. Let's beat this thing, fellas.

----------


## chimera

> What is prettyfly's regimen?


 He's just on minox and dermaroller. Well yeah, he's also on vit C, but we all know vit C won't do jack.

----------


## greatjob!

> Hey all my Balding Brothers and Sister
> 
> As promised here are my 3 month update photo's which I'm posting for all to gauge the effectiveness of this treatment.


 PrettyFly I thought I would embed a side by side of your pics here so people could see your progress a little better.

----------


## Kiwi

Would derm rolling without minox make a difference?

Also I'm not on minox if I start dermrolling now will I get and shedding?

----------


## gainspotter

> Would derm rolling without minox make a difference?
> 
> Also I'm not on minox if I start dermrolling now will I get and shedding?


 Hard to answer that as most people would rather be exact to the study. If you want to try dermarolling without minox, I would say go for it, if you start getting results then it could be a good way to gauge the effectiveness of minox. It would be nice to stop applying that crap everyday anyway.
The more different techniques used in this study the better I think.
And yeah you will probably notice shedding if you use minox.

----------


## Jens1986

> Yup. Also, Minoxidil without dermarolling usually gives a bad shed in the first 1-3 months and results don't come in until much later, sometimes 6-12 months!


 Shedding should stop before 3 months - after 3 months you should have results. This is what it says on minoxidil package at least (and my personal experience)

----------


## hellouser

> Shedding should stop before 3 months - after 3 months you should have results. This is what it says on minoxidil package at least (and my personal experience)


 Usually true but everyones different. When I first started Minoxidil I didn't get results until around a year or so later. Essentially, I shed, thinned out and stayed that way for a loooong time (wasnt until 50mg/1ml of RU was added).

I hate Minox, but its essential. CB should be awesome.

----------


## Conpecia

HOLY SHIT look at that regrowth!!!!! VERY exciting!!

----------


## clandestine

hellouser are you going to Dermaroll with RU minox CB (ideally)?

----------


## fred970

Looks like it's really working. Hard to not get excited  :Smile: .

----------


## The Alchemist

> HOLY SHIT look at that regrowth!!!!! VERY exciting!!


 His head is shaved to the bone in the first photo.  In the second photo his hair has grown out quite a bit.  Look at the sides to see how much.  I think that this makes it difficult to say what is regrowth and what is just hair growing in.  Maybe though...

I've been rolling for about a month now and have not noticed any effects yet.  Will keep up with it for a few more months to see what happens.  Really hoping this works

----------


## yan

> His head is shaved to the bone in the first photo.  In the second photo his hair has grown out quite a bit.  Look at the sides to see how much.  I think that this makes it difficult to say what is regrowth and what is just hair growing in.  Maybe though...
> 
> I've been rolling for about a month now and have not noticed any effects yet.  Will keep up with it for a few more months to see what happens.  Really hoping this works


 So true...

----------


## john2399

> His head is shaved to the bone in the first photo.  In the second photo his hair has grown out quite a bit.  Look at the sides to see how much.  I think that this makes it difficult to say what is regrowth and what is just hair growing in.  Maybe though...
> 
> I've been rolling for about a month now and have not noticed any effects yet.  Will keep up with it for a few more months to see what happens.  Really hoping this works


 Not really because the crown is completely bald. You can't even see stumble in the first pick on the crown and then after 3 months there is def regrowth.

----------


## StayThick

> His head is shaved to the bone in the first photo.  In the second photo his hair has grown out quite a bit.  Look at the sides to see how much.  I think that this makes it difficult to say what is regrowth and what is just hair growing in.  Maybe though...
> 
> I've been rolling for about a month now and have not noticed any effects yet.  Will keep up with it for a few more months to see what happens.  Really hoping this works


 I wasn't going to be the one to say....but I agree 100% with ^.

I see most on here like to lean on hope and then get excited when they see something that might remotely resemble a result of some kind, but those pics don't prove anything IMHO.

Hair looks freshly shaved in the left pic and slightly grown out on the left. I've done this for around 3 months as well and personally it hasn't done much of anything...

Wish you all the best. I'll still continue myself, but have little hopes this will do anything.

----------


## Chromeo

Totally disagree with the "shaven-down" BS. That's a bald scalp, fellas.

I shave my head regularly and there is never that "nothing there" look to it. You can tell if there is hair there or not.

----------


## Koga

> Hi, did you just start Minox, or have you been on it for a while?


 I've been on minox for a few years now

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

I shave my head any where from a zero to a 1 or a 2, every 2-3 days and I will disagree with those saying his head is completely shaved in the baseline pic. It looks to me like there's no hair at all because he's completely bald. He has the same haircut, just that in the after pic he has regrowth.

----------


## Koga

Also, has anyone noticed its easier to draw blood each time you roll? The first time I rolled I couldn't draw any blood, but by the third time I was drawing some blood, and this last time there was a lot more. I apply the same amount of pressure each time. I'm thinking each time I roll and injure the scalp, it causes the blood vessels to grow closer to the scalp which would also bring more nutrients to the follicles? That would explain why I'm getting more blood each week.

----------


## yan

> I shave my head any where from a zero to a 1 or a 2, every 2-3 days and I will disagree with those saying his head is completely shaved in the baseline pic. It looks to me like there's no hair at all because he's completely bald. He has the same haircut, just that in the after pic he has regrowth.


 Dude if you don`t see the different hair lenght, then something is wrong with you. Just check the donor area. No further comment, it`s obvious. 

But nevertheless, it looks like he gained around 20-30 hairs in his crown (at best).

----------


## Chromeo

> Dude if you don`t see the different hair lenght, then something is wrong with you. Just check the donor area. No further comment, it`s obvious. 
> 
> But nevertheless, it looks like he gained around 20-30 hairs in his crown (at best).


 If you are suggesting that's not a bald scalp and just a shaven down scalp, then I would appreciate no further comment because you are clearly mistaken about it. I'm guessing you don't shave your head down regularly, because in areas where you have some hair, it doesn't look like his before pictures.

----------


## Chromeo

> Also, has anyone noticed its easier to draw blood each time you roll? The first time I rolled I couldn't draw any blood, but by the third time I was drawing some blood, and this last time there was a lot more. I apply the same amount of pressure each time. I'm thinking each time I roll and injure the scalp, it causes the blood vessels to grow closer to the scalp which would also bring more nutrients to the follicles? That would explain why I'm getting more blood each week.


 I have noticed this too, Koga. On the first week, I didn't experience as much bleeding as I expected with the longer needles. The next week I bled a little more, the third week more than that, and by the one month mark, it was easier to bleed than ever before. Very interesting observation.

----------


## HairBane

Is everyone just using wounding + minoxidil? Or are some people using growth factors etc?

----------


## hellouser

> Is everyone just using wounding + minoxidil? Or are some people using growth factors etc?


 Me:

Dermarolling Once a week (deep rolling drawing blood)
5% Minoxidil 2x every day (except for day of dermarolling)
1-2% CB 1x every day

I might jump on the growth factors bandwagon. I really want my temples back and density on scalp.

----------


## horte

So could be coincidence, doubtful but I noticed a huge shed and I am dermarolling on hair that came from mindoxil, i had decent temple regrowth with just Min and trentoin A and starting using dermaroller... However i have been experiencing a massive shed and now when i put min on and shampoo 15 hairs come out. 

Basically has anyone else shed from this? should I stop dermarolling do a select few experience hairless? or am i making a connection thats not there. 

Its been 2 weeks and seems to not be slowing down HELP please

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

ride it out man    :Wink:

----------


## doke

no need top draw blood guys as thats real damage to scalp just plain silly that is, anyway i have never done this and also i got results from dermarolling using a 0.5mm roller with 192 titanium needle and using it everyday and applying minox straight after when dry applying copper peptide spray its what works for you as its still experimental really even though theres been this trial.

----------


## Koga

I'm not trying to draw blood, I'm just saying I'm starting to draw blood without trying, using the same amount of pressure as before.

----------


## doke

hi guys im using topical morr f 3% minox plus 1mg finasteride all in one topical and may add topical spiro 0.5% lotion but cannot use it until minox is dry due to smell and before you say use dr klines spiro its too expensive best to cover as much as possible with advanced mpb i still have some mpb treatments ru plus 5% but it made my hairloss worse.

----------


## doke

The only problem i see with scalp wounding will it make the scalp become used to the roller and form thicker skin that in turn causes more hair loss in the future i dought if the once a week will hurt as long as you take it lightly in small stages but everyday i think will be ok as long as you use a smaller needle roller.
I think i will try the once a week as i have my new 1.5 needle now but will need to start easy as i usually sneeze on the temples and eyes water.

----------


## StayThick

> Me:
> 
> Dermarolling Once a week (deep rolling drawing blood)
> 5% Minoxidil 2x every day (except for day of dermarolling)
> 1-2% CB 1x every day
> 
> I might jump on the growth factors bandwagon. I really want my temples back and density on scalp.


 Hellouser: Im placing my order for the Growth Factors now before the price hikes up. I really want to apply this after a dermarolling session. It could have sides, but at this point my hair is killing me already.

If you want to ride it out, I'll be purchasing and can update you if you want. I don't care about being a guinea pig with this at the moment. I also just ordered CB from ID, which they said would be at my door within the week.

----------


## Hicks

> I'm not trying to draw blood, I'm just saying I'm starting to draw blood without trying, using the same amount of pressure as before.


 I have notice this as well but I am ball rolling 3 times a week.  3rd time I dermarolled it look like someone gutted a deer in my sink.

It also seems that the elasticity of my front scalp has been increasing.

----------


## Stevo1

> Hellouser: Im placing my order for the Growth Factors now before the price hikes up. I really want to apply this after a dermarolling session. It could have sides, but at this point my hair is killing me already.
> 
> If you want to ride it out, I'll be purchasing and can update you if you want. I don't care about being a guinea pig with this at the moment. I also just ordered CB from ID, which they said would be at my door within the week.


 Staythick,

1) I just ordered the Anagen GF's yesterday too. Like you I do not mind being the guinea pig. 

2) Good to here Iron Dragon is shipping CB-03-01 soon as I ordered mine in July.

3) Check out my 35 year experience/history including using other type of GF's and ALL of Iron-Dragon products..."Growth factors Thread" page 18 & 19.

Respectfully,

Stevo

----------


## doke

where in the 2013 trial results did they say you need to needle so hard as to draw blood its the opposite so why go against the trial if you want to follow it that is?

----------


## Tracy C

> where in the 2013 trial results did they say you need to needle so hard as to draw blood its the opposite so why go against the trial if you want to follow it that is?


 Some are trying to reproduce the pilot study to see if it works, which is a very smart thing to do and is the way science should be done.  Others are following their own untrained theories about the study results and are trying to improve upon those results without first attempting to reproduce them to confirm proof of concept.  It's their scalps.  They can do whatever they want with them.

----------


## hellouser

> Some are trying to reproduce the pilot study to see if it works, which is a very smart thing to do and is the way science should be done.  Others are following their own untrained theories about the study results and are trying to improve upon those results *without first attempting to reproduce them to confirm proof of concept.*  It's their scalps.  They can do whatever they want with them.


 Its been pointed out already, but I'll say it again:

No need to have so many people reproduce the trial results, theres enough that are doing so to validate the study. You're also dismissing the fact that some of us (me) are trying to replicate Follica's wounding theory (in some way at least).

Don't downplay the efforts of others.

----------


## doke

I have seen no proof in any study that you really need to make the scalp bleed and thats true in the case skin use as well it is not the right thing to tell people to do and i will say whats right so some younger or new members here do not get the wrong info.
It is your own scalps to do as you want but we need to say do this at your own risk due as we have no long term data what this damage may do.
I say good luck to you guys doing this but me i will make sure its helping not torture slight redness is ok im not trying to deride anyone as you cannot tell people what to do but as said we need to point out its not in this study.

----------


## Tracy C

> No need to have so many people reproduce the trial results, theres enough that are doing so to validate the study.


 You do not understand how research is properly done.  The more these results of this pilot study can be reproduced the better.  That is called good science.






> Don't downplay the efforts of others.


 I am not downplaying anyone.  But this is important to point out.  It is the sensible and responsible thing to do.  Many here are certainly not being sensible and certainly not acting responsibly - but some of us are.  Don't you downplay those who are exercising good sense and acting responsibly and appropriately.

----------


## hellouser

> You do not understand how research is properly done.  The more these results of this pilot study can be reproduced the better.  That is called good science.


 'Good science' is an extremely vague and primitive way of describing the research. 





> I am not downplaying anyone.  But this is important to point out.  It is the sensible and responsible thing to do.  Many here are certainly not being sensible and certainly not acting responsibly - but some of us are.  *Don't you downplay those who are exercising good sense and acting responsibly and appropriately.*


 That is offensive, you realize that, right? I've gone far beyond most people to bring all the necessary information for everyone to take part in this trial and pointed out many different routes people can take. For you to even suggest I downplay those who are following the study is bogus, especially since you tried to use my words against me. And again, which will be at least the 3rd time me saying this:

*THERES NO NEED FOR ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE TO FOLLOW THE STUDY TO THE T WHEN THERES SO MANY ALREADY DOING SO.*

Those that are following the study and get results will HOPEFULLY report back with their results (and hopefully with pictures). As for myself and others who are trying wounding, growth factors, etc. you can only be grateful for seeing how you'll then know if compounding other topicals works (or not). I don't see why youre so being so hostile for the fact that _some_ are deviating from the study.

----------


## doke

As said hell good luck to you and i hope you are successful with this but its not what the trial you brought to thie thread says or i did not see it.
I say again the trial was a good result and says slight redness is whats needed once a week as there was someone said that you may cause damage to the scalp in making the scalp bleed im only saying this to be on the safe side as we are not sure that to use too much force may cause more hair loss but i hope you post pictures at three months to see if you have had any success and before pics as well.

----------


## doke

Has anyone saw the piliel trials that regrew hair after wounding as fns may help as well.
I do need to say to hellhouse thankyou for bringing this dermaroller trial to bald truth as its very interesting and maybe what we all want to regrow some hair back.

----------


## Tracy C

> 'Good science' is an extremely vague and primitive way of describing the research.


 Obviously you did not get the point of that at all.






> That is offensive, you realize that, right?


 It was intended to be because you asked for it and you deserved it.  You and only you.






> *THERES NO NEED FOR ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE TO FOLLOW THE STUDY TO THE T WHEN THERES SO MANY ALREADY DOING SO.*


 There is absolutely no need for caps lock and bold text.  No one is saying that ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE should follow the protocol in the pilot study.  More people should however to help verify the proof of concept.  What I am reading is telling me that not enough are attempting to reproduce the results of this pilot study by following the protocols of the pilot study.  You insist on missing or intentionally ignoring that very important point.

----------


## Tracy C

> I do need to say to hellhouse thankyou for bringing this dermaroller trial to bald truth as its very interesting...


 Yes it is very interesting - but it was only a pilot study.  A pilot study is a study used to determine if more study is appropriate.  The reported results tell me that more study is appropriate - if the results can be reasonably and adequately reproduced in larger numbers.  That's a very important thing right there.

----------


## gainspotter

I don't see why some people have to be so hostile on these threads. 
Who cares if someone is trying it a different way, you don't have to. Even I am sticking with the study for time being, doesn't mean I'll criticise everyone elses methods. Hellhouser could have better success drawing blood and then we will all be jumping on that bandwagon. No one knows what's gonna happen, all I can say is thanks hell for all your work and research in  tackling this sh1t.

----------


## greatjob!

> As said hell good luck to you and i hope you are successful with this but its not what the trial you brought to thie thread says or i did not see it.
> I say again the trial was a good result and says slight redness is whats needed once a week as there was someone said that you may cause damage to the scalp in making the scalp bleed im only saying this to be on the safe side as we are not sure that to use too much force may cause more hair loss but i hope you post pictures at three months to see if you have had any success and before pics as well.


 I initially said you don't want to draw blood as well because the study said to roll until you see mild erythema. This was however before I ever rolled with the 1.5 mm derma roller, because after I used it the first time I realized it is not possible to roll with a 1.5 mm roller and not draw blood.

----------


## greatjob!

> It was intended to be because you asked for it and you deserved it.  You and only you.


 Damn that's pretty harsh

----------


## sosa56

> I initially said you don't want to draw blood as well because the study said to roll until you see mild erythema. This was however before I ever rolled with the 1.5 mm derma roller, because after I used it the first time I realized it is not possible to roll with a 1.5 mm roller and not draw blood.


 This. As long as youre not going crazy, I think we've all seen, those of us who have been following the thread form its humble beginnings, that a little bit of blood with 1.5 mm dermarolling is par for the course

----------


## Tracy C

> Damn that's pretty harsh


 Are you serious?  I don't get even close to being as harsh with you guys as you guys are with me.  You guys have been jumping all over my case and giving me massive amounts of unreasonable crap from the very beginning - and all I ever wanted to do was help...  I have every right to get even more harsh with you guys than I currently do and I have the green light to go ahead and do so.  Whether you like it or not I have a right to defend myself - and I am going to do that.

----------


## greatjob!

> Are you serious?  I don't get even close to being as harsh with you guys as you guys are with me.  You guys have been jumping all over my case and giving me massive amounts of unreasonable crap from the very beginning - and all I ever wanted to do was help...  I have every right to get even more harsh with you guys than I currently do and I have the green light to go ahead and do so.  Whether you like it or not I have a right to defend myself - and I am going to do that.


 I have never been harsh towards you. I agree with you on most things. The only thing I have disagreed with you on in the past in laser therapy, and it looks like your opinion has evolved in regards to men using laser therapy, so we now probably agree on almost everything. I know people have been assholes to you in the past, I was just reacting to this particular conversation.

----------


## Pentarou

I definitely agree with Tracy that we need to stick to trying to replicate the pilot study's treatment protocol to test the generalisability *before* we collectively attempt anything further. We have to learn to walk before we can run.

----------


## Kiwi

> Are you serious?  I don't get even close to being as harsh with you guys as you guys are with me.  You guys have been jumping all over my case and giving me massive amounts of unreasonable crap from the very beginning - and all I ever wanted to do was help...  I have every right to get even more harsh with you guys than I currently do and I have the green light to go ahead and do so.  Whether you like it or not I have a right to defend myself - and I am going to do that.


 I value your input too Tracy!!!! 

.... just not when it comes to do with topics such as erect penis failure due to finasteride. So long as you don't talk about the benefits of fin in the "Cutting Edge" forums I'm a happy chappy  :Wink:

----------


## Pentarou

Look people, this study could be a real gift: a way to regrow hair using a relatively cheap implement, and a substance that you can buy cheaply in any pharmacy! As basic as it gets. It really is worth the effort to try and prove (or disprove).

----------


## Kiwi

> Look people, this study could be a real gift: a way to regrow hair using a relatively cheap implement, and a substance that you can buy cheaply in any pharmacy! As basic as it gets. It really is worth the effort to try and prove (or disprove).


 Do you guys think this will do?
http://www.dermaroller.co.nz/homecareroller

----------


## LevonHelms

> Do you guys think this will do?
> http://www.dermaroller.co.nz/homecareroller


 Yep. That's the same one I have, made by Rejuveness. Seems fairly sturdy.

Whoa Kiwi, I just looked at the price. $129 is way too much, and that's a .25mm in the starter kit. I bought two rollers just like that one in a 1.5mm and .5mm  on Amazon for a total of $60. And you can buy the c & e serum(for your face) if you want for around $25.

----------


## Kiwi

Do you guys think dermarolling for a month without minox might lesson the chances of minox shedding?

----------


## john2399

> Yep. That's the same one I have, made by Rejuveness. Seems fairly sturdy.
> 
> Whoa Kiwi, I just looked at the price. $129 is way too much, and that's a .25mm in the starter kit. I bought two rollers just like that one in a 1.5mm and .5mm  on Amazon for a total of $60. And you can buy the c & e serum(for your face) if you want for around $25.


 60 bucks? my dermaroller was like 12 bucks.

----------


## Conpecia

> I definitely agree with Tracy that we need to stick to trying to replicate the pilot study's treatment protocol to test the generalisability *before* we collectively attempt anything further. We have to learn to walk before we can run.


 No.

----------


## DesperateOne

First I want to say that everyone had the right to their opinion, and that means we might disagree with each other. Let us not gang up on Tracy, I know she is like beacon here because she is the only girl and a well known respected emember.

Anyways, it has been over a month with me and I took pics before the trial and buzzed my head pretty short, 1mm. I now have the hair longer and I will be posting some pics tomorrow as I am typing this on my phone. I dont know how much it has helped because as some have pointed out, it's hard to see a difference when hair has grown. It is still very bad, but I think it worked a bit.

----------


## LevonHelms

> 60 bucks? my dermaroller was like 12 bucks.


 Well, 2 at $30 a pop. The first one I bought was 10-15 bucks by MT. I wanted to see if there was any difference in quality. Honestly I liked the handle of the cheaper MT better, but the rolling pin started squeaking and binding last week. Hence the switch.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Well, 2 at $30 a pop. The first one I bought was 10-15 bucks by MT. I wanted to see if there was any difference in quality. Honestly I liked the handle of the cheaper MT better, but the rolling pin started squeaking and binding last week. Hence the switch.


 

Mine is also squeaking, but it should still work. God... Why did we have to be cursed with this desease, I think it might be worse than cranialpagus parasiticus .

----------


## doke

> Mine is also squeaking, but it should still work. God... Why did we have to be cursed with this desease, I think it might be worse than cranialpagus parasiticus .


 Squeaking i only thought the mice trials for hairloss caused that hahaha put a little drop of olive oil on the spindle that may cure it.

----------


## doke

I was getting good results from dermarolling everyday with the 0.5mm roller but uping it to 1.5mm may produce better results im wondering if using it every other day and minox with azeilac acid in every day but at night only 2mls.
Any thoughts on that as long as you go easy at first with the roller although i have not got the roller out of its rapping yet.

----------


## Koga

I would advise against rolling every other day with 1.5mm, since after I roll with mine my scalp feels a bit sore and different for at least 3 days after. You should roll once with the 1.5mm and see how you feel day by day.

But if you're rolling for the wounding effect, wouldn't then it would make sense to let the scalp repair and recover, and let your follicles benefit from the growth factors being released, before wounding it again?

----------


## HARIRI

Read this Guys:-

*Dermaroller for Home Use*

The modern-day magic wand of skin care
Are you really happy with the results of your skincare, or do you think they could be better? Did you know that only minor fractions (maximum 0.3&#37;!) of the active substance of your favourite cream can penetrate the surface of your skin? The majority of it – 99.7% – is wasted on your towel, pillow or cotton-pads. So if you want to dramatically increase the effectiveness of your skincare products and treatments then you need a dermaroller for home use!

*Description of the dermaroller*

Our dermaroller for home use is a cosmetic skin tool that dramatically increases the penetration and effectiveness of active substances up to 40 times compared to normal topical creaming. By rolling the cylinder on the skin’s surface you create micro-channels that effortlessly drive active vitamins, lipids and substances deeper into your skin, whilst stimulating the skin’s natural renewal process.

*Features*

Our roller has nearly 200 stainless-steel micro points that painlessly create thousands of tiny channels in the outer layer of the skin, allowing vitamins, enzymes and lipids to penetrate more deeply. Needle tips or micro-points are so fine they can barely be seen with the naked eye and only penetrate the epidermis and cannot reach the dermis.

*Homecare Roller*
The length of the needles in our dermaroller for home use is .25mm. This roller is perfect for treating your face and other delicate areas

*
Advanced Roller
*
The length of the needles in our advanced roller is .5mm. This roller is suited for treating cellulite or stretch marks because the skin is thicker. It is also ideal for those who have used our dermaroller starter pack and require a more advanced at home treatment. This roller will induce some collagen and dramatically increase product penetration.

*Warning

Please do not be fooled into thinking that longer needles are superior and will give better results! At dr. dermacare your safety comes first. This is why we refuse to sell rollers with longer needles to our retail customers. We have been selling rollers for over 5 years, long before the influx of websites that clearly put ‘profit before principles’ came along. Our knowledge experience and research clearly tells us that you can cause permanent damage to the nerves and muscles beneath your skin if you roll regularly with longer needles.*
*
Needles longer than .5mm should only be used by professionals for medical treatments.
*
*Benefits of the homecare dermaroller when used in conjunction with active substances:*

The process is entirely natural
Dramatically increases the penetration of your skincare products and treatments.
Reduces appearance of fine lines and wrinkles
Visibly reduces scarring, sun damage and pigmentation
Skin becomes thicker and healthier
Dermaroller can be used at home use or anywhere
The process is pain free
There is no damage to the skin
It can be used on thin skin
Supports collagen and elastin repair
It can be used on all areas of the face, neck and body
It is cost-effective, and lasts up to 120 applications
Enhances Iontophoresis and Sonophoresis treatments

*Use of the dermaroller*

Apply a thin layer of your chosen dr. dermacare skincare product and ‘roll’ it gently into your skin with the roller. Only a medium pressure should initially be applied. Scientific data is based on rolling 10-15 times in the same area in all directions. In this case around 240 microinfiltration- pores per square centimetre are set. The pores close within minutes thus locking in nutrients and supporting skin renewal.
When you purchase a roller from us it will come with detailed instructions

*Indications for Use*

Suitable for all skin types except for use on active acne, eczema, warts, moles and skin cancers. It should be used only and exclusively by the same person. The infiltration channels are closed in less than one hour after the treatment.

*How to use the dr. dermacare roller for hairloss:*

The roller can and should be used with every application of an anti-hairloss product. We recommend Minoxidil. The use is absolutely pain-free and the invisible micro perforation of the skin disappears in minutes. The topical product has to be applied first then use the roller with light to medium pressure.

Very important – Roll 2-3 times over the same spot but only in one direction. If you roll back and forth you will tangle your existing hair in the roller. Always roll away from the hair root. Use your hands to keep existing hair out of your way as good as possible.

----------


## Koga

yikes Hariri, that's kind of scary.. I don't want permanent nerve or muscle damage. But then again, what they are talking about is more for increased penetration of minoxidil and skin care products. I'm sure they aren't talking about wounding which is what we are going after, which they probably don't know about. So the 1.5mm might be needed. Does anyone know how deep hair follicles are?

----------


## DesperateOne

Well here are my photos, it's been about a month and a week that I used this procedure. I have kept it basically the same as the study, but I do get some sun for 15 mins now, and vitamin D3. Been on fin for about 3 years now.

I buzzed my hair on top around 2mm, and it should be about 4mm or so now. Sorry but this is going to have to do for now, until I have to buzz it down more, I don't know if there is any improvement, I think I have gotten some thickness. Well you be the judge, there is not many pics but oh well. I think with a little longer hair and some dermatch, I might be able to pull a relatively passable look, do you think?

http://imgur.com/a/byiAS#5

----------


## HairBane

Shouldn't you guys be using FGF9 like Follica said, rather than minoxidil?

----------


## chimera

Turns out FGF9 is not as easy to get... not at all...

----------


## DesperateOne

> Shouldn't you guys be using FGF9 like Follica said, rather than minoxidil?


 Well, if you can find it or make it, you let us know. I think hellouser is willing to be the lab rat for it.

----------


## hellouser

> Turns out FGF9 is not as easy to get... not at all...


 Its easy to get. If you have thousands of dollars.

----------


## the_dude78

> Well here are my photos, it's been about a month and a week that I used this procedure. I have kept it basically the same as the study, but I do get some sun for 15 mins now, and vitamin D3. Been on fin for about 3 years now.
> 
> I buzzed my hair on top around 2mm, and it should be about 4mm or so now. Sorry but this is going to have to do for now, until I have to buzz it down more, I don't know if there is any improvement, I think I have gotten some thickness. Well you be the judge, there is not many pics but oh well. I think with a little longer hair and some dermatch, I might be able to pull a relatively passable look, do you think?
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/byiAS#5


 If the last two pictures in the album are the before pictures and the rest are after, then it definitely could look like you've gained some density. But with the quality of the photos, it's hard to tell really. Seems like the lighting in the last two pictures is different.

----------


## the_dude78

> Are you serious?  I don't get even close to being as harsh with you guys as you guys are with me.  You guys have been jumping all over my case and giving me massive amounts of unreasonable crap from the very beginning - and all I ever wanted to do was help...  I have every right to get even more harsh with you guys than I currently do and I have the green light to go ahead and do so.  Whether you like it or not I have a right to defend myself - and I am going to do that.


 Tracy, let me first say I value your input too, and I actually agree with you in most cases, but I think you can be a _little_ harsh too in the way you address people. I know that that's what has provoked me before, not so much your opinions. But then again, I'm a sensitive guy, and I have learned to live with it, and I would actually like to apologize for giving you crap before.

----------


## Tracy C

> ...and I would actually like to apologize for giving you crap before.


 Thank you.  Apology accepted.

I am never intentionally harsh unless it is in response to someone who is being an aggressive jerk with me.  There are many members of this forum who do just that for the sole sake of being an aggressive jerk.  When that happens, I will defend myself.

----------


## Tracy C

> Seems like the lighting in the last two pictures is different.


 In research photos, it is vitally important to maintain consistency as much as humanly possible.  When researching a hair loss remedy, this includes lighting, hair style and length, background and poses.  If any of those things are different, it could be very difficult or impossible for anyone to be able to tell if any progress is being made.

I looked at his photos, there is too much different for me to be able to tell if any progress has been made.  However, I would not expect any progress to be visible for at least four to six months anyways.  So I am not surprised if I don't see any.

----------


## DesperateOne

> If the last two pictures in the album are the before pictures and the rest are after, then it definitely could look like you've gained some density. But with the quality of the photos, it's hard to tell really. Seems like the lighting in the last two pictures is different.


 You're right, I took the last two photos in the bathroom and closer to the light, the rest are in my room, the light was on but I think the bathroom one has more power. Anyways, I will eventually take some in the bathroom with the same buzzed head when I need it. I am not going to go now just to prove a point, maybe like in 1 month and half more I will go again.

----------


## PayDay

> Tracy, let me first say I value your input too, and I actually agree with you in most cases, but I think you can be a _little_ harsh too in the way you address people. I know that that's what has provoked me before, not so much your opinions. But then again, I'm a sensitive guy, and I have learned to live with it, and I would actually like to apologize for giving you crap before.


 I've probably said this before, but I'm actually a fan of the way Tracy tries to inject some common sense  into many of the threads on this forum. Her advise is usually excellent, even though I do not agree with some of what she says.

I know she got some crap in the past,  but things seems to have gotten a lot less hostile here over the past few months and I'm really enjoying reading and participating on forum even more now.

I think Tracy might have some PTSD from being harassed in the past, but I have to agree that she has been acting inappropriately  hostile and defensive lately. 

I'm sure you're reading this Tracy so please take this for how it is meant, as  I am a member who respects and appreciates you here. Please try to take the high road and stop being so hostile. If you have something to say, you are obviously intelligent enough to make your points without name calling or finger pointing. Two wrongs to not make a right and this type of behavior only lumps you into the say category as some of the people who used to be hostile towards you and you are too good for that.

----------


## DesperateOne

> In research photos, it is vitally important to maintain consistency as much as humanly possible.  When researching a hair loss remedy, this includes lighting, hair style and length, background and poses.  If any of those things are different, it could be very difficult or impossible for anyone to be able to tell if any progress is being made.
> 
> I looked at his photos, there is too much different for me to be able to tell if any progress has been made.  However, I would not expect any progress to be visible for at least four to six months anyways.  So I am not surprised if I don't see any.


 You're right Tracy, my apologies. The ones on the bottom are taken directly under the light and the others I was sitting down and the light is not as powerful. I will get buzzed again in 2 months or so and I will try to take the photos as closely as possible to the first ones.

----------


## Tracy C

> I will get buzzed again in 2 months or so and I will try to take the photos as closely as possible to the first ones.


 Actually, I like your hairstyle the way it is now.  Why not just maintain that hair style from now on as you continue to participate in this trial?

Get someone to help you with photos.  Use a good quality camera and do your best to keep the lighting and backgrounds consistent.

----------


## Tracy C

> I think Tracy might have some PTSD from being harassed in the past, but I have to agree that she has been acting inappropriately  hostile and defensive lately.


 I don't know if it is PTSD but I have been getting more aggressive with these guys as they have continued to get more aggressive with me.  Maybe it is PTSD or maybe it's just a "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" kind of issue.

----------


## clandestine

Tracy could you tell me again where to buy the saline solution? I've checked my local pharmacies and they don't carry.

Thanks.

----------


## PayDay

> I don't know if it is PTSD but I have been getting more aggressive with these guys as they have continued to get more aggressive with me.  Maybe it is PTSD or maybe it's just a "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" kind of issue.


 Well whatever it is, you're too good to stoop to their level. Take the high road. :Smile:

----------


## Chromeo

We definitely do not need everybody to stick to replicating the study. Enough of us are already doing that. Be thankful for the guys who are willing to try variations on the theme; regardless of whether their results are positive or negative, the information is useful. If they are willing to take risks to find out what works and what doesn't, we can only be thankful.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Actually, I like your hairstyle the way it is now.  Why not just maintain that hair style from now on as you continue to participate in this trial?
> 
> Get someone to help you with photos.  Use a good quality camera and do your best to keep the lighting and backgrounds consistent.


 Okay, that sounds good to me, but I don't think I'm going to get anyone to help me with the photos, not the kind of thing I want to ask help for.

----------


## DesperateOne

> We definitely do not need everybody to stick to replicating the study. Enough of us are already doing that. Be thankful for the guys who are willing to try variations on the theme; regardless of whether their results are positive or negative, the information is useful. If they are willing to take risks to find out what works and what doesn't, we can only be thankful.


 That is so true, they are taking risks and we should go faster thanks to them. Granted statistically speaking, there will be some horror stories like anything else. Some of the things being tried in addition to he study are very logical and should work better IMO. Personally, I would add more stuff if I had the money, I am unemployed and it is so nerve racking having to find a job looking like this, I sometimes feel like I have cancer and getting chemo therapy. Anyways, I will have no choice but to get a job so I can buy some of these products. On that note, anyone willing to help a NW brother in the LA area with a job? Haha, worth a try.

----------


## Tracy C

> We definitely do not need everybody to stick to replicating the study.


 Of course not.






> Enough of us are already doing that.


 No there are not enough who are already doing that.  This was not a full study.  This was only a pilot study, so there needs to be many more participants spread out over a much wider area and the duration needs to be at least six months in order to verify the findings of that pilot study.

I want the results of this pilot study to be true.  I want to see good quality proof that it is true.  I want to see thousands of men and hundreds of women participating in the efforts to reproduce the results of this pilot study.  I want to see good quality before and good quality 6-month after photos plastered all over the place.  Then it is appropriate to move forward with experimenting to attempt to improve the results.

However, no one is required to do what is most appropriate.  It is your scalp.  Do what you want with it.

----------


## thinningTooSoon

Did my first session tonight with a 1.5mm roller. It didn't feel like the needles were going all the way in but I did get some bleeding, has anyone else experienced this?

----------


## DesperateOne

Okay so I have taken new pictures with the same light as before. I put the before which are only 3 that I have and the new ones. If anything, well I will just use the new ones as a reference point. New ones have more resolution.

Old 5/4 months as of today(pics are done right after derma rolling, that's why my scalp is red and maybe some blood):
http://imgur.com/a/kO2Pp

New:

back:
http://imgur.com/a/zsjgn

sides(This disease also has affected my sides, even worse  :Frown:    ):
http://imgur.com/a/ygJsC

top view
http://imgur.com/a/5Fmdc

----------


## Conpecia

dude, it LOOKS like you have pretty good regrowth but it's difficult to tell because of the resolution and the redness. but your hair definitely looks thicker in the second set. it's certainly not getting any worse, so that's good for being on something that many months. maintenance is a great thing in itself. i'd say this is pretty good news for you.

----------


## DesperateOne

> dude, it LOOKS like you have pretty good regrowth but it's difficult to tell because of the resolution and the redness. but your hair definitely looks thicker in the second set. it's certainly not getting any worse, so that's good for being on something that many months. maintenance is a great thing in itself. i'd say this is pretty good news for you.


 Yes and I feel it thicker too, I had to bit the bullet and buzz it that short because I knew it would help the dermarolling and the application. But I think you're confused, it's not 4-5 months it's a month and 1 week, it was intended to be a fraction  :Smile:  5/4 .

----------


## Chromeo

> No there are not enough who are already doing that.  This was not a full study.  This was only a pilot study, so there needs to be many more participants spread out over a much wider area and the duration needs to be at least six months in order to verify the findings of that pilot study.
> 
> I want the results of this pilot study to be true.  I want to see good quality proof that it is true.  I want to see thousands of men and hundreds of women participating in the efforts to reproduce the results of this pilot study.  I want to see good quality before and good quality 6-month after photos plastered all over the place.  Then it is appropriate to move forward with experimenting to attempt to improve the results.
> 
> However, no one is required to do what is most appropriate.  It is your scalp.  Do what you want with it.


 Good post. I stand corrected, I thought a lot of us were following the study to the T like I am. Hopefully there are at least a good number of us who are. I'm happy that there are other people going above and beyond. Who else is copying the study exactly? We need to get some numbers, here. I'm going into my 5th rolling session tonight with the 1.5mm needles. It's early days, but I have to say it really looks like it is working. I think those of us who shave our heads are the most likely to see the results, if we're taking pics. Far more difficult to tell if you're looking at a fairly full head of hair & just wanting it to be thicker.

I can clearly see that the hairs I have are coming through blacker and thicker in areas where the growth was pretty poor previously. PrettyFly83's pics are indicative of what this can do. It's slow progress but progress nonetheless. I'm sorry but people who are saying "That's just a shaven-down scalp compared to hair that is slightly grown in" are wrong. That is a bald scalp that is beginning to regrow thick, dark hairs. I am seeing it myself on my own scalp. I don't know how far we can go with this, but it does work. 

Tracy C, I have read your posts before and I understand why you would feel a need to kick back against those who have kicked against you and verbally abused you along the way. I have to say I have the utmost respect for you and I welcome your contribution here every bit as much as I do every other person who posts here. I want this cure for you as much as I want it for every other male who posts on this board, maybe even a little bit more. Fingers crossed this is something that really works for us all.

----------


## Chromeo

Just got done with rolling session #5. I've had a skinful of booze tonight, and anyone who says that stuff doesn't hurt is straight-up smoking crack.

----------


## KeepHoping

> Yes and I feel it thicker too, I had to bit the bullet and buzz it that short because I knew it would help the dermarolling and the application. But I think you're confused, it's not 4-5 months it's a month and 1 week, it was intended to be a fraction  5/4 .


 I'm also a diffuse thinner with a bit of recession and I just did my second rolling session...  Not sure if I'm doing it correctly though, I seem to be rolling for quite a bit of time and my scalp doesn't get as red as yours, it does get a bit read but not to the same extent.  Can you tell me how you use the dermaroller DesperateOne?

----------


## DesperateOne

> I'm also a diffuse thinner with a bit of recession and I just did my second rolling session...  Not sure if I'm doing it correctly though, I seem to be rolling for quite a bit of time and my scalp doesn't get as red as yours, it does get a bit read but not to the same extent.  Can you tell me how you use the dermaroller DesperateOne?


 Of course, we need to help each other as much as possible. First, let me just let you know that I am very sensitive, my skin gets red very fast regardless of derma rolling, for example, I tend to blush very easily, so don't feel discouraged because you don't see the same redness. 

To your point, I will let you know how I do it and then try to back it up with my opinion why I think this is the best way. 

Sun (Shower with nizoral or regenepure shampoo before the derma rolling. As some have pointed out, they reduce inflammation which may render the procedure less effective, that's why I use it at the very end, when the scalp is recovered.) I then go on to derma roll. (I will explain my technique bellow). No rogain this day.

Mon Rogain foam(2x a day, one morning, one at night) and about 15 mins of light absorption in my scalp and a vitamin D3 pill

Tues "

Wed "

Thur "

Fri "

Sat "

I have been also taking fin for the last 3 years, so 1.25mg a day. I would recommend that you use lipogaine rather than rogaine if you have the money, I just bough some and will be using it instead on some days, and then the regular foam and kirkland one more to reduce the cost.

Technique: I have essentially given up on the rolling technique the 2nd week. Like many have pointed out, it might now go all the way through. So now I take about an hour or more (because I have to do the entire scalp) and just go one press at a time until I hear the velcro sound and make sure it goes all the way in. I did it today, and I can tell you that it didn't get as red, yet it still hurt as hell and feel very sore. I also do a bit of regular rolling towards the end just to try and create some more trauma. Good luck.

----------


## KeepHoping

Thanks for the detailed response man, ever considered a topical anesthetic like lidocaine?  I'm wondering if that would effect the procedure at all...?   Mine gets a little red but the redness subsides pretty quickly from what I can observe so I'm not sure if I'm actually doing it properly and I'm considering a topical anesthetic just to make it less of an awful ordeal hahahahah.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Thanks for the detailed response man, ever considered a topical anesthetic like lidocaine?  I'm wondering if that would effect the procedure at all...?   Mine gets a little red but the redness subsides pretty quickly from what I can observe so I'm not sure if I'm actually doing it properly and I'm considering a topical anesthetic just to make it less of an awful ordeal hahahahah.


 lol I know it hurts like hell but I have seen in a few places that you should not use any of that because it may cause nerve damage. If you do then you need to consult a qualified dermatologist, to tell you the truth I doubt they will know.

----------


## doke

how do you guys know if tracy is a woman as it maybe a man?

----------


## the_dude78

> how do you guys know if tracy is a woman as it maybe a man?


 wat?


Why would we even care?

----------


## doke

> wat?
> 
> 
> Why would we even care?


 i asked because some are refering to tracy as she read back the posts?

----------


## Chromeo

Tracy is a woman.

----------


## thinningTooSoon

What is everyone using to clean the Dermarroller after a session, I ran it under a hot tap then soaked it in Dettol for 30 mins, is this enough?

----------


## doke

ok thanks chromeo thats solved it.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

is she hot?

----------


## clandestine

*Question;*

How is everyone cleaning their derma roller to prevent the risk of infection? What about storing?

----------


## clandestine

Nevermind; it appears this has already been answered, but I can in no way see or edit my posts.

Risk of Infection

Can you damage your skin?

&&




> 1. Pressing too hard shouldnt matter in regards to side effects. We know that clinics as demonstrated in some of the youtube videos draw a LOT of blood.
> 2. Betadine, Isopropanol, Isopropyl should all be used to clean the roller. Some are boiling it hot water followed by the high concentration alcohols.
> 
> I store mine in a plastic enclose it came with and then inside the plastic tube container.


 



> to clean it i pour betadine into a shot glass and let the roller sit in it for a few mins, I would think that would clean it pretty well...

----------


## gainspotter

Anyone starting to have doubts?
Or are you all still optimistic?
I swear my hairs getting worse lately, could be because I'm due for a trim. 
 I just want this to work so bloody bad!

----------


## doke

Some say that if you use a minox product like lipogain or spectral dnc you do not need to scalp roll as they are ment to penetrate the skin but with scalp roller may work even better.
Or what about using Dr Razack crinagen with minox instead its worth trying some of these products with the roller as they are more advanced than plain minoxidil.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Some say that if you use a minox product like lipogain or spectral dnc you do not need to scalp roll as they are ment to penetrate the skin but with scalp roller may work even better.
> Or what about using Dr Razack crinagen with minox instead its worth trying some of these products with the roller as they are more advanced than plain minoxidil.


 
Have people even read the first page of the study? We don't care about how much better minox is being absorbed, what we are trying to achieve is neogenesis. When you wound the skin deep enough, the body will make a decision of whether to make new skin or a hair follicle, we're after hair of course. Adding minox encourages the body to take the follicle route, that's why we use it, not because of absorption. I still would think that lip ovations would be better if you can afford it, but the others should do fine.

PS: Tracy is a woman, she has called the show before and shared her story. Every place always needs a feminine touch, it's just a shame how hostile this place is. And lol to whoever asked if she was hot, she is very hot  :Smile:  .

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Sup fellas. Got my hair cut Sat. Same gal every time. She told me my hair was growing back in my crown. I have essential tremor in my hands so pics are not coming from me. I do have base line pics. Made by me when I was drunk. My hands do not shake when I am drunk. I quit drinking so my next hair cut I will have her take a pic. Been rolling my ring finger with my ex whore wifes name. Getting lighter every week. Things looking so good ..ghost

----------


## JDW

> Anyone starting to have doubts?
> Or are you all still optimistic?
> I swear my hairs getting worse lately, could be because I'm due for a trim. 
>  I just want this to work so bloody bad!


 Yes man, with you on wanting this to work, would be a great feeling to start to see an improvement. 

I think stick at it for 12 weeks minimum as per the trial and then see what happens.

----------


## doke

> Have people even read the first page of the study? We don't care about how much better minox is being absorbed, what we are trying to achieve is neogenesis. When you wound the skin deep enough, the body will make a decision of whether to make new skin or a hair follicle, we're after hair of course. Adding minox encourages the body to take the follicle route, that's why we use it, not because of absorption. I still would think that lip ovations would be better if you can afford it, but the others should do fine.
> 
> PS: Tracy is a woman, she has called the show before and shared her story. Every place always needs a feminine touch, it's just a shame how hostile this place is. And lol to whoever asked if she was hot, she is very hot  .


 hi desperate is it dan the next word hahaha anyway the wounding study starting the thread uses minoxidil and whatever anyone says it still then needs a healing topical wheather its a growth factor or not as i have said before perhaps a product like renokin or dermaheal product to use with the roller but its what works for each individual perhaps osmotics fnc serum as it was used in the burn on scalp regrowth of hair in the damaged area.

----------


## Jcm800

> PS: Tracy is a woman, she has called the show before and shared her story. Every place always needs a feminine touch, it's just a shame how hostile this place is. And lol to whoever asked if she was hot, she is very hot  .


 Tracy tells it how it is, and is usually correct, no idea what she looks like - she's brave coming back tho, she takes some flak around here.

----------


## DesperateOne

Everyone here is crazy as hell. I think hairloss attacks some part of the brain, that would explain so much.

----------


## Conpecia

> Yes and I feel it thicker too, I had to bit the bullet and buzz it that short because I knew it would help the dermarolling and the application. But I think you're confused, it's not 4-5 months it's a month and 1 week, it was intended to be a fraction  5/4 .


 ah ok, never seen it put that way lol. in that case it def looks to be working pretty quick. gonna do my third rolling session tonight, hopefully i'll start seeing something in a few weeks...

----------


## doke

hi jc ive never had a problem with tracy its not good to have any trolls out to cause trouble but we do sometimes take things the wrong way as its easy to post something and then regret it.
But we are all in this i hope to help in this affliction,im not sure but the bald truth was a better forum for not getting bullying as some the trolls are out of control did the forum not have a mod until winston came along?

----------


## DesperateOne

> hi jc ive never had a problem with tracy its not good to have any trolls out to cause trouble but we do sometimes take things the wrong way as its easy to post something and then regret it.
> But we are all in this i hope to help in this affliction,im not sure but the bald truth was a better forum for not getting bullying as some the trolls are out of control did the forum not have a mod until winston came along?


 Doke I have seen you troll around in this forum plenty. You seem to have a problem with certain people including Tracy. Something tells me you are working for Merk and you want propecia to stay active, who knows maybe you're Joe from Staten Island and you want to keep the cure for yourself.

----------


## Tracy C

> Tracy could you tell me again where to buy the saline solution? I've checked my local pharmacies and they don't carry.
> 
> Thanks.


 Really?  I just buy it at my local pharmacy.  Try going up to the counter and ask for help finding it.






> I would recommend that you use lipogaine rather than rogaine if you have the money...


 There is no meaningful or significant benefit to using Lipogaine or DNC over Rogaine.  The active ingredient is what matters and it is the same for each.  The benefits of the "extra stuff" in Lipogaine or DNC are unproven and questionable at best.






> how do you guys know if tracy is a woman as it maybe a man?


 Some of these guys have heard me call in to the live show.  I am a woman suffering with FPB.






> What is everyone using to clean the Dermarroller after a session...


 I still have not received my roller but I read the cleaning instructions which say to clean it with alcohol.  The roller I ordered comes with a case to store it in.






> is she hot?


 I get hit on a lot so maybe.






> Anyone starting to have doubts?
> Or are you all still optimistic?


 It is too soon to tell.  For those who are following the protocol of the pilot study, I would not expect any improvement to become visible for at least four to six months.  For those who are doing their own thing, we just don't know because there is no established baseline.






> Have people even read the first page of the study? We don't care about how much better minox is being absorbed, what we are trying to achieve is neogenesis.


 Correct.  Absorption is not a factor in the results of the pilot study.






> Sup fellas. Got my hair cut Sat. Same gal every time. She told me my hair was growing back in my crown.


 That is awesome!!!  I am so happy for you - and hopeful for everyone else.   :Smile: 






> Tracy tells it how it is, and is usually correct, no idea what she looks like - she's brave coming back tho, she takes some flak around here.


 Thank you.   :Smile: 

Telling it like it is is exactly why some members hate me.  I know it, Spencer knows it and the mods know it.  That's why they give me so much breathing room.

----------


## greatjob!

> Something tells me you are working for Merk and you want propecia to stay active


 Really?? I seriously hope you're joking

----------


## gainspotter

> Really?  I just buy it at my local pharmacy.  Try going up to the counter and ask for help finding it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no meaningful or significant benefit to using Lipogaine or DNC over Rogaine.  The active ingredient is what matters and it is the same for each.  The benefits of the "extra stuff" in Lipogaine or DNC are unproven and questionable at best.
> 
> 
> ...


 I am new to this forum so don't know the full picture. Ill stay out of it. We should all stick together on this one.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I am new to this forum so don't know the full picture. Ill stay out of it. We should all stick together on this one.


 That's a good idea that you're staying away from this, senior members will eat you alive in this forum and then drink your blood for dessert

----------


## the_dude78

I'm having my 4th session tomorrow and I actually feel my hair is looking a little worse than it did a month ago. Haven't really noticed more shedding than usual and hopefully it's just my imagination.

----------


## KeepHoping

Last question Desperate One and thank you in advance for what you bring to the table here, I definitely appreciate the input.  What roller are you using?

----------


## DesperateOne

> Last question Desperate One and thank you in advance for what you bring to the table here, I definitely appreciate the input.  What roller are you using?


 This is the one I am using right now. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Guys do not be stupid. Rolling will cut many hairs in half. Many at scalp level. I lose at least 100 hairs during rolling and I am a Norwood 6. Man up 6 months from now it will be so much better. I love promox! Love the 10% spray in the morning it dries fast. The 15% lotion is definitely a nighttime gig. Cheers
Ghost :Big Grin:

----------


## DesperateOne

> Guys do not be stupid. Rolling will cut many hairs in half. Many at scalp level. I lose at least 100 hairs during rolling and I am a Norwood 6. Man up 6 months from now it will be so much better. I love promox! Love the 10% spray in the morning it dries fast. The 15% lotion is definitely a nighttime gig. Cheers
> Ghost


 
And you based this statement on what exactly

----------


## Conpecia

just had my 3rd session. gotta man up indeed, shit doesn't feel particularly pleasant. 

also finally got minox liquid in, gonna jump from foam to liquid for better absorption (although i'm still not applying until 24 hrs after rolling, in line with the study).

was definitely bleeding this time, made sure to go all the way in and all around the hairline. i'm hoping i'll get results from my regimen, can't think of any stronger hairloss regimen right now, and it's nice having dermarolling as the least proven method in my arsenal...

----------


## john2399

> just had my 3rd session. gotta man up indeed, shit doesn't feel particularly pleasant. 
> 
> also finally got minox liquid in, gonna jump from foam to liquid for better absorption (although i'm still not applying until 24 hrs after rolling, in line with the study).
> 
> was definitely bleeding this time, made sure to go all the way in and all around the hairline. i'm hoping i'll get results from my regimen, can't think of any stronger hairloss regimen right now, and it's nice having dermarolling as the least proven method in my arsenal...


 in other words, it hurts like a bitch ikno lol

----------


## DesperateOne

> just had my 3rd session. gotta man up indeed, shit doesn't feel particularly pleasant. 
> 
> also finally got minox liquid in, gonna jump from foam to liquid for better absorption (although i'm still not applying until 24 hrs after rolling, in line with the study).
> 
> was definitely bleeding this time, made sure to go all the way in and all around the hairline. i'm hoping i'll get results from my regimen, can't think of any stronger hairloss regimen right now, and it's nice having dermarolling as the least proven method in my arsenal...


 Yeah, that shit is no fun, I just want to quit halfway most of the time. 
When do you plan to post pictures?

----------


## luca10

I think I see regeneration

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

could you please take some pics and give us some info
thank you
-john


> I think I see regeneration

----------


## HARIRI

I'm using the 0.5mm once a week and find it painful while you guys are using 1.5mm!!! I tolarated a strip procedure and a chest BHT into scar surgery but NOT this. I guess Im a P***y when it comes to dermarolling lol

----------


## thinningTooSoon

I started on Sunday am using 1.5mm roller, painful but lets hope it's worth it, I have taken pictures and will upload if I get improvements to show you all.

Quick question, how often do you wash your hair? I ask because I am wondering if the scabbing over is part of the wound healing process and would washing the hair interrupt this process?

----------


## doke

> Doke I have seen you troll around in this forum plenty. You seem to have a problem with certain people including Tracy. Something tells me you are working for Merk and you want propecia to stay active, who knows maybe you're Joe from Staten Island and you want to keep the cure for yourself.


 nope get angry with some who think they own the forum and there own threads but as many may know  me at other forums im no troll and as for propecia i do not indorse it as i use avodart due to my health.
I have said it maybe best for younger guys to start with propecia combined with minox but thats what every hair loss adviser with any inteligence says at this time and i agree with them although we know some are trialing bimatoprost as it may work better than minox but its too pricey if you want to use 1ml a day.

----------


## Hicks

> Quick question, how often do you wash your hair? I ask because I am wondering if the scabbing over is part of the wound healing process and would washing the hair interrupt this process?


 I shower and shampoo then derma roller.  After dermaroll I rinse my hair with water, let hair dry and use warm liquid coconut oil. 

I wash my hair everyday and use a conditioner.  I use nizoral 1% 3 times a week.  mon wed fri

Hope this helps.  Everyones body will react differnt.  Listen to your body.

I am using Bio-oil on some days after I apply liquad minoxal.

----------


## NotDyingBald

Since Nizoral is used for skin infections in scalp, would it be good idea to use it in the day we dermaroll as a way to prevent some infection caused by it? Would this affect somehow the replication of the study? I mean same way as some of us use dettol to clean the dermaroller, we could use nizoral to "clean" the scalp?

Edit: I mean using Nizoral in the shower before dermarolling

----------


## clandestine

> Since Nizoral is used for skin infections in scalp, would it be good idea to use it in the day we dermaroll as a way to prevent some infection caused by it? Would this affect somehow the replication of the study? I mean same way as some of us use dettol to clean the dermaroller, we could use nizoral to "clean" the scalp?
> 
> Edit: I mean using Nizoral in the shower before dermarolling


 Saline, betadine and a clean derma roller, as per the study.

----------


## Conpecia

after you guys roll what do you do? i shower off because there is some blood on my scalp but i don't apply anything, should i do so?

head is sore today from rolling yesterday. will apply minox liquid tonight thoroughly.

----------


## Conpecia

> Yeah, that shit is no fun, I just want to quit halfway most of the time. 
> When do you plan to post pictures?


 hey desperate, i'm going to post pics after about 12 weeks unless i see some serious regrowth earlier. 

remember, i'm also on dutasteride and regenepure, so i'm sure that stuff will help me but it may skew my dermarolling results. if i happen to get regrowth in the hairline i'll attribute more of that to rolling, but crown should be filled in by dutasteride and regenepure i think.

----------


## DesperateOne

> nope get angry with some who think they own the forum and there own threads but as many may know  me at other forums im no troll and as for propecia i do not indorse it as i use avodart due to my health.
> I have said it maybe best for younger guys to start with propecia combined with minox but thats what every hair loss adviser with any inteligence says at this time and i agree with them although we know some are trialing bimatoprost as it may work better than minox but its too pricey if you want to use 1ml a day.


 Haha, I was just messing with you, nothing serious.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I started on Sunday am using 1.5mm roller, painful but lets hope it's worth it, I have taken pictures and will upload if I get improvements to show you all.
> 
> Quick question, how often do you wash your hair? I ask because I am wondering if the scabbing over is part of the wound healing process and would washing the hair interrupt this process?


 You and everyone should post their pictures and results regardless of regrowth. We need info good or bad in order to perfect the technique. Since my hair was essentially shit, I now shower every other day, so I won't lose that many hairs in the shower. However, that is a good point, I don't know if that helped me or hurt me in any way.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Since Nizoral is used for skin infections in scalp, would it be good idea to use it in the day we dermaroll as a way to prevent some infection caused by it? Would this affect somehow the replication of the study? I mean same way as some of us use dettol to clean the dermaroller, we could use nizoral to "clean" the scalp?
> 
> Edit: I mean using Nizoral in the shower before dermarolling


 I use it that way, nizoral once a day, the day of the rolling before I roll.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

An article on the general non-hair related benefits of micro needling.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office

----------


## Conpecia

> An article on the general non-hair related benefits of micro needling.


 Is it possible that beginning derma rolling at an early age (20s) will maintain young skin better than doing so after most of the collagen is depleted in our 50s and 60s?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys any results?

----------


## hellouser

> guys any results?


 Still none for me! I've been shedding pretty much constantly for the last two months. 

I should report though, that with the level of dermarolling I've been doing, mainly harsh 'semi-wounding' which has caused some bleeding similarly to the effect of one of the youtube videos posted with the woman going across the guys face, I've been experiencing a massive SKIN shed. The wounds have been drastic enough that light scabs have appeared on my scalp which are breaking off in large chunks and look pretty damn gross. At the same time, I'm on Minoxidil twice a day on days where I dont dermaroll as well as being on CB between 1%-2% per day at 1ml of which for 4 days I used 0.9ml of PG and 0.1ml of Oleyl as the vehicle for CB.

Now, my scalp was itching like fcking crazy while using oleyl, and it increased the amount of shedding by the 4th day. It was also burning my scalp but I don't know how much damage it really did.

In any case, after the 4th day of oleyl I used the dermaroller more vigorously than ever and a couple days later I noticed a pretty bad shed, here's how it looks:



Thats after brushing my hair with my hands for about 1 minute. Insane huh?

Tough to say if thats from dermarolling, or from oleyl or from minox twice a day. I suspect its probably a combination of things but mostly at the hands of Oleyl.

----------


## Tracy C

> Since Nizoral is used for skin infections in scalp, would it be good idea to use it in the day we dermaroll as a way to prevent some infection caused by it?


 Washing your hair with Nizoral once a week is good idea if you are treating hair loss.  I doubt that dermarolling makes any difference good or bad, adding Nizoral to your regimen is just a good idea.






> after you guys roll what do you do?


 Still waiting for my roller but I plan to clean the area with betadine and apply a very thin layer of Neosporin over the area.






> guys any results?


 It's too soon.  For those who are following the protocol of the pilot study, I would not expect cosmetically significant results for at least four to six months.  For those who are doing their own thing, who knows?

----------


## DesperateOne

> Still none for me! I've been shedding pretty much constantly for the last two months. 
> 
> I should report though, that with the level of dermarolling I've been doing, mainly harsh 'semi-wounding' which has caused some bleeding similarly to the effect of one of the youtube videos posted with the woman going across the guys face, I've been experiencing a massive SKIN shed. The wounds have been drastic enough that light scabs have appeared on my scalp which are breaking off in large chunks and look pretty damn gross. At the same time, I'm on Minoxidil twice a day on days where I dont dermaroll as well as being on CB between 1%-2% per day at 1ml of which for 4 days I used 0.9ml of PG and 0.1ml of Oleyl as the vehicle for CB.
> 
> Now, my scalp was itching like fcking crazy while using oleyl, and it increased the amount of shedding by the 4th day. It was also burning my scalp but I don't know how much damage it really did.
> 
> In any case, after the 4th day of oleyl I used the dermaroller more vigorously than ever and a couple days later I noticed a pretty bad shed, here's how it looks:
> 
> 
> ...


 So that's the new hair you grew or the only hair you have left do to shedding? You might be trying to much shit at a time.

----------


## hellouser

> So that's the new hair you grew or the only hair you have left do to shedding? You might be trying to much shit at a time.


 A lot of those hairs are finer/thinner hairs but some are also thicker terminal hairs. My hair cycles a lot though, I've lost and gained a lot of density since starting Minoxidil.

I'm really not on much though, only CB and Minox. oleyl/pg was just the vehicle for CB but I do know that another member on another forum tried oleyl/pg as well and said he was experiencing incredible shedding on it too, which my experience would only confirm that causes that. I also had the same side effects from it too; burning scalp, intense itching.

I've since dropped oleyl and am back on ethanol/pg to use for CB. Itching is GONE, scalp no longer burns and shedding during showers has decreased already. Now I just need to monitor shedding through out the day. So far, it has decreased but I'll know better in the coming weeks/months.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

U think the shed is because u are transitionning from RU to CB? how long were u off RU before starting CB? its cant be from rolling. Has to be from the transition and perhaps oleyl irritation

----------


## clandestine

hell are you using eth(70)/PG(30) vehicle for CB?

----------


## DesperateOne

> A lot of those hairs are finer/thinner hairs but some are also thicker terminal hairs. My hair cycles a lot though, I've lost and gained a lot of density since starting Minoxidil.
> 
> I'm really not on much though, only CB and Minox. oleyl/pg was just the vehicle for CB but I do know that another member on another forum tried oleyl/pg as well and said he was experiencing incredible shedding on it too, which my experience would only confirm that causes that. I also had the same side effects from it too; burning scalp, intense itching.
> 
> I've since dropped oleyl and am back on ethanol/pg to use for CB. Itching is GONE, scalp no longer burns and shedding during showers has decreased already. Now I just need to monitor shedding through out the day. So far, it has decreased but I'll know better in the coming weeks/months.


 lol well, I guess ethanol/pg will be better to start with. Did you think that oleyl/pg was going to be better for some reason?

Man that is a lot of hairs you lose, and that's not counting the ones you missed. I remember grabbing my hair and pulling a little would grab some hairs, but not that many. Is most of your hair brittle? or are they usually pretty thick.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

Guys....just a few of here are nw5 or greater. You Norwood 1.5 and 2's think you can go to your juvenile hairline. So stupid. A mature Norwood 3 hairline is perfect. So you youngsters keep what you got and you will do just fine. No woman wants to sleep with a little boys hairline. Just my thoughts. 
Ghost

----------


## Hicks

> Guys....just a few of here are nw5 or greater. You Norwood 1.5 and 2's think you can go to your juvenile hairline. So stupid. A mature Norwood 3 hairline is perfect. So you youngsters keep what you got and you will do just fine. No woman wants to sleep with a little boys hairline. Just my thoughts. 
> Ghost


 Do you drink a lot?           

Your posts are funny

----------


## DesperateOne

> Do you drink a lot?           
> 
> Your posts are funny


 Yeah I think he does drink, or maybe it's just meth. At any rate, everyone wants better relative to their situation, to him a nw3 would be awesome.

I am now questioning the value of coming to the forum so often.

----------


## Thinning87

> Still none for me! I've been shedding pretty much constantly for the last two months. 
> 
> I should report though, that with the level of dermarolling I've been doing, mainly harsh 'semi-wounding' which has caused some bleeding similarly to the effect of one of the youtube videos posted with the woman going across the guys face, I've been experiencing a massive SKIN shed. The wounds have been drastic enough that light scabs have appeared on my scalp which are breaking off in large chunks and look pretty damn gross. At the same time, I'm on Minoxidil twice a day on days where I dont dermaroll as well as being on CB between 1%-2% per day at 1ml of which for 4 days I used 0.9ml of PG and 0.1ml of Oleyl as the vehicle for CB.
> 
> Now, my scalp was itching like fcking crazy while using oleyl, and it increased the amount of shedding by the 4th day. It was also burning my scalp but I don't know how much damage it really did.
> 
> In any case, after the 4th day of oleyl I used the dermaroller more vigorously than ever and a couple days later I noticed a pretty bad shed, here's how it looks:
> 
> 
> ...


 I don't think this is bad. Shedding is a sign of hair growth cycle regulation as you know. I wonder if the wounding and therefore the production of new follicles in the new skin might explain them shedding.

----------


## hellouser

> I don't think this is bad. Shedding is a sign of hair growth cycle regulation as you know. I wonder if the wounding and therefore the production of new follicles in the new skin might explain them shedding.


 No clue, but I'm almost certain it was/is the Oleyl. That shit burns itches irritates the scalp like crazy after repeated use. With the massive shed, I'm expecting massive results.

----------


## StayThick

> Still none for me! I've been shedding pretty much constantly for the last two months. 
> 
> I should report though, that with the level of dermarolling I've been doing, mainly harsh 'semi-wounding' which has caused some bleeding similarly to the effect of one of the youtube videos posted with the woman going across the guys face, I've been experiencing a massive SKIN shed. The wounds have been drastic enough that light scabs have appeared on my scalp which are breaking off in large chunks and look pretty damn gross. At the same time, I'm on Minoxidil twice a day on days where I dont dermaroll as well as being on CB between 1&#37;-2% per day at 1ml of which for 4 days I used 0.9ml of PG and 0.1ml of Oleyl as the vehicle for CB.
> 
> Now, my scalp was itching like fcking crazy while using oleyl, and it increased the amount of shedding by the 4th day. It was also burning my scalp but I don't know how much damage it really did.
> 
> In any case, after the 4th day of oleyl I used the dermaroller more vigorously than ever and a couple days later I noticed a pretty bad shed, here's how it looks:
> 
> 
> ...


 Not going to lie. That right there would scare the hell out of me. Hell is that a typical shed because in my opinion that is extremely excessive. I have never shed like that. Sweet god.

Not sure if a shed like that means regrowth, but man....this sucks. If your hair is shedding like that considering all the treatments you're on, then I feel there is no hope. Wish you the best though. I sincerely hope that is a positive sign of what's to come.

----------


## StayThick

> Guys....just a few of here are nw5 or greater. You Norwood 1.5 and 2's think you can go to your juvenile hairline. So stupid. A mature Norwood 3 hairline is perfect. So you youngsters keep what you got and you will do just fine. No woman wants to sleep with a little boys hairline. Just my thoughts. 
> Ghost


 I'd gladly take a juvenile hairline and give everyone the finger in this forum and never shine my grace on here again..problem is, that will NEVER happen. It's not in my genetic makeup. It's one of the few things God did not bless me with...it just wasn't in my cards to have great hair all my life.

----------


## hellouser

> Not going to lie. That right there would scare the hell out of me. Hell is that a typical shed because in my opinion that is extremely excessive. I have never shed like that. Sweet god.
> 
> Not sure if a shed like that means regrowth, but man....this sucks. If your hair is shedding like that considering all the treatments you're on, then I feel there is no hope. Wish you the best though. I sincerely hope that is a positive sign of what's to come.


 I'm only on CB and Minox. Nothing more dude, so I wouldnt say there isn't hope.

I had terrible shedding earlier this year in January/February as well. I had good density after RU usage for a few months, however, I wish I had stuck to the regimen. To me, it seems like I could have increased density EVEN MORE, similarly to IrishPride's case, that guy has been consistent as hell with his RU/FIN + Minox regimen. Dude went from 'OK' density to more or less FULL restoration.

The coming months with my CB usage will be pretty telling though... I'm not worried too much, all of what I've lost should grow back in due time.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I'm only on CB and Minox. Nothing more dude, so I wouldnt say there isn't hope.
> 
> I had terrible shedding earlier this year in January/February as well. I had good density after RU usage for a few months, however, I wish I had stuck to the regimen. To me, it seems like I could have increased density EVEN MORE, similarly to IrishPride's case, that guy has been consistent as hell with his RU/FIN + Minox regimen. Dude went from 'OK' density to more or less FULL restoration.
> 
> The coming months with my CB usage will be pretty telling though... I'm not worried too much, all of what I've lost should grow back in due time.


 That's more of wishful thinking considering we don't even know if that CB will work in the first place, also if you lose hair to RU, I don't know if those will grow back either. I have found that once you find something that works you should stay with it, and if something new comes out, then it should just be added not the other similar product discarded, IMO. I know how depressing it can be so I can only wish you the best of luck as it will open more members to trying CB if yours works, good luck.

----------


## brunobald

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/f...165944935.html

Looks like Rooney is jumping on the wounding theory bandwagon.  :Smile:

----------


## gainspotter

> http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/f...165944935.html
> 
> Looks like Rooney is jumping on the wounding theory bandwagon.


 LOL he must have used the 10mm roller.

----------


## vanityhair

Not seeing anything notable over here at 6 weeks. Darn it.

Do we know whether the baldies in the pilot study were already on Minoxidil prior to starting dermarolling, or if they started both treatments at the same time?

----------


## Julian P

> Do we know whether the baldies in the pilot study were already on Minoxidil prior to starting dermarolling, or if they started both treatments at the same time?


 That shouldn't matter because there is a control group that uses only minoxidil, and that group had significantly less resultst than the dermarolling + minox group. Anyhow, it looks like they all started using minox at the beginning of the study, but I'm not sure.

----------


## dodgePT

> Not seeing anything notable over here at 6 weeks. Darn it.
> 
> Do we know whether the baldies in the pilot study were already on Minoxidil prior to starting dermarolling, or if they started both treatments at the same time?


 The study clearly states there were some subjects already on finasteride/minoxidil before the study:



```
A total of 94 patients, 20 had been treated with Finasteride and Minoxidil in the past for 6 months to 1 year duration and had reported no improvement, of which twelve were randomized to the Microneedling group and eight to the Minoxidil group.
```

----------


## Julian P

> The study clearly states there were some subjects already on finasteride/minoxidil before the study:


 Whoops, caught me in my laziness there.

----------


## DesperateOne

Do you guys think adding Cet and Mico would help with this? I think if we add Cet on the 4th day it would be ideal and Mico the same days as minox, what do you'd think

----------


## Conpecia

> The study clearly states there were some subjects already on finasteride/minoxidil before the study:
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> A total of 94 patients, 20 had been treated with Finasteride and Minoxidil in the past for 6 months to 1 year duration and had reported no improvement, of which twelve were randomized to the Microneedling group and eight to the Minoxidil group.
> ```


 No exactly clear in my opinion. The way it's phrased doesn't tell us if they were STILL on fin and minox when they started microneedling. Either way, it says they had no improvement prior to microneedling so it's not like it gave them much of an advantage, that's the key.

----------


## Conpecia

I feel like this is a make or break month for a whole bunch of guys around here. If results don't start popping up in at least a few members we could be in for another miserable autumn.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I feel like this is a make or break month for a whole bunch of guys around here. If results don't start popping up in at least a few members we could be in for another miserable autumn.


 That's true, it sucks but we have to accept. I have no doubt that it made my hair way thicker, I can feel the hair being so much healthier, so I know it works for that for sure. I just ordered some Cet, I know the study is important but I can't continue with it to the T anymore, I need to expand my horizons now. I think Cet will give peach hair and then with the derma rolling it might be enough to turn them terminal.

----------


## hellouser

> I feel like this is a make or break month for a whole bunch of guys around here. If results don't start popping up in at least a few members we could be in for another miserable autumn.


 I had a miserable summer. I'm looking forward to a miserable autumn.

----------


## Tracy C

> Not seeing anything notable over here at 6 weeks. Darn it.


 Try setting your expectations to something more realistic.  I would not expect to be able to see any improvement until at least four to six months - more likely six months than four.  To expect to be able to see any results in less than four months is not realistic at all.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Try setting your expectations to something more realistic.  I would not expect to be able to see any improvement until at least four to six months - more likely six months than four.  To expect to be able to see any results in less than four months is not realistic at all.


 I thought you were going to stay away because people were beign aggressive towards you. I guess you had a change of heart  :Smile:

----------


## gainspotter

> Try setting your expectations to something more realistic.  I would not expect to be able to see any improvement until at least four to six months - more likely six months than four.  To expect to be able to see any results in less than four months is not realistic at all.


 I hope so.

----------


## Tracy C

> I thought you were going to stay away because people were beign aggressive towards you.


 I am staying away from several threads that are thoroughly infested with fools who desperately need someone to slap some sense into them.  If you follow those threads, you will easily find that the most aggressive members are the biggest fools.  I no longer have any patience for them.  I will call them fools and idiots because those words very accurately describe those people.  If I get banned for doing so, so be it.  I simply don't care anymore.

This thread however is about a treatment that I feel might have some merit.  I am disappointed that there are not enough people trying to duplicate the results of the pilot study - but something is better than nothing.  Anyways, these guys who expect to see results in a matter of weeks are not being realistic and obviously do not understand how hair cycles work.  They also do not understand that there is a difference between "statistically significant" and "cosmetically significant".  Results that may be "statistically significant" may happen within the time frame reported in the pilot study, but "cosmetically significant" results will take a lot longer.

----------


## hairandthere

Just wanted to throw it out there that I'm also trialing dermarolling with a 1.5mm roller after having seen the recent study reports, even if the claimed density results seemed literally unbelievable. I have to add that I'm not interested in replicating the study. 

I would classify myself as somewhere between NW3 and NW4. I first started 1mg finasteride a little less than a decade ago and was on it almost 2 years. Looking back, I think it did wonders in regrowing from NW2 to NW1 over 16 months and then maintaining. I was feeling like my nipples were getting softer and bigger and was getting iffy about messing with my hormones so I dropped it. I then used minox for a year until I got a serious girlfriend and quit everything altogether. A few years back I got serious about it again for 6 months and tried daily RU and Dutasteride twice a week, both for the first time. 

I ended up moving out of my home country for a while and it became difficult to obtain these kinds of products so I waited until I recently returned. So a few months ago, I decided to throw the kitchen sink at it in a last ditch attempt to miraculously recover to perhaps NW2 level? I was a good responder before so I'm hoping it's not too late and I can still reverse the damage that happened the last couple of years. I'm committing to a solid year of the following regimen to see if this is possible:



I use the 1.5mm dermaroller every 4-6 days (usually the day I buzz down with either no-guard or the lowest guard) until i get little specs of blood over the whole horseshoe area, which I then wash off and then immediately apply Polaris NR-10 16&#37; minox. I use this minox twice daily, dermarolling or not.

The rest of my regimen: .5mg propecia every day, 60-70mg RU from Kane over whole horsehoe area three times a day (~200mg total daily), 2% nizoral 1-2 times a week. Start times:

RU since June 2013
Fin since mid July 2013, took 2mg first day, 1mg second day, .5mg since
Kirkland Minoxidil 5% foam June-July 2013
Polaris NR-10 16% Minoxidil since August 2013
Dermaroller since end July 2013
2% Nizoral since February 2013


I'll likely add CB in next once a good vehicle is found. I've actually ordered 2 pcs of the Iron Dragon version to see what they have to offer.

Sorry, I don't like taking, much less posting pics, and even much less looking at the situation too much as the less I think about it the better. I just try to integrate the regimen as seamlessly into the daily routine and move-on knowing that I'm already doing as much as possible  :Smile: 

Should something miraculous happen, I'm sure I could find some pics showing the difference, which could then be endlessly scrutinized for legitimacy!

----------


## DesperateOne

> Just wanted to throw it out there that I'm also trialing dermarolling with a 1.5mm roller after having seen the recent study reports, even if the claimed density results seemed literally unbelievable. I have to add that I'm not interested in replicating the study. 
> 
> I would classify myself as somewhere between NW3 and NW4. I first started 1mg finasteride a little less than a decade ago and was on it almost 2 years. Looking back, I think it did wonders in regrowing from NW2 to NW1 over 16 months and then maintaining. I was feeling like my nipples were getting softer and bigger and was getting iffy about messing with my hormones so I dropped it. I then used minox for a year until I got a serious girlfriend and quit everything altogether. A few years back I got serious about it again for 6 months and tried daily RU and Dutasteride twice a week, both for the first time. 
> 
> I ended up moving out of my home country for a while and it became difficult to obtain these kinds of products so I waited until I recently returned. So a few months ago, I decided to throw the kitchen sink at it in a last ditch attempt to miraculously recover to perhaps NW2 level? I was a good responder before so I'm hoping it's not too late and I can still reverse the damage that happened the last couple of years. I'm committing to a solid year of the following regimen to see if this is possible:
> 
> 
> 
> I use the 1.5mm dermaroller every 4-6 days (usually the day I buzz down with either no-guard or the lowest guard) until i get little specs of blood over the whole horseshoe area, which I then wash off and then immediately apply Polaris NR-10 16% minox. I use this minox twice daily, dermarolling or not.
> ...


 16% minox after derma rolling? Holly crap, watch out man, you might get heart problems. Well it looks like you have a lot of stuff on you, the derma rolling is not intended for absorption purposes, although it will probably will help in the absl toon process. What we're trying to achieve here is neogenesis. Anyways, good luck with your regimen. I also think you're adding a lot of RU a day, and seeing it as it is expensive I take it you make pretty good money.l, you lucky bastard.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I am staying away from several threads that are thoroughly infested with fools who desperately need someone to slap some sense into them.  If you follow those threads, you will easily find that the most aggressive members are the biggest fools.  I no longer have any patience for them.  I will call them fools and idiots because those words very accurately describe those people.  If I get banned for doing so, so be it.  I simply don't care anymore.
> 
> This thread however is about a treatment that I feel might have some merit.  I am disappointed that there are not enough people trying to duplicate the results of the pilot study - but something is better than nothing.  Anyways, these guys who expect to see results in a matter of weeks are not being realistic and obviously do not understand how hair cycles work.  They also do not understand that there is a difference between "statistically significant" and "cosmetically significant".  Results that may be "statistically significant" may happen within the time frame reported in the pilot study, but "cosmetically significant" results will take a lot longer.


 You're right Tracy, sometimes I wonder if its even worth it comin here so often. I would follow the study to the T but I can't take this curse no more, I do feel like it will help me adding Cet on day 4-7 when the healing has almost ended. I just hope if this process works and we do get neogenesis, that it can be reproduced indefinitely and be compounded.

----------


## Chromeo

Normally I would also tend to believe any changes would take at least 6 months to appear...however, this was a 12 week study and the results appear to be "cosmetically significant" in as little as 3 months. 

Therefore, for those sticking to the method laid out in the study, it would not be entirely unrealistic to expect comparable results at a similar early stage. Otherwise it would have to suggest that the subjects of the test must have been exceptionally good responders, or that the results themselves are of questionable authenticity. 

Let's hope for positive results amongst forum users.

----------


## chimera

I really don't understand the pics from the study. Because in the study it's says that all participants were shaved so it could be easy to measure differences, but in the pics from the end of the study the hair is waaay longer than what hair can growth in just three months. So, are the pics fake, or those pics were not takes three months after, but maybe more months after (which would be good, as for those results I would gladly wait a whole year), but it is not clear.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

Cetrizine will not grow hair. i wouldnt waste your time. most people report only increased shedding.

----------


## Chromeo

> I really don't understand the pics from the study. Because in the study it's says that all participants were shaved so it could be easy to measure differences, but in the pics from the end of the study the hair is waaay longer than what hair can growth in just three months. So, are the pics fake, or those pics were not takes three months after, but maybe more months after (which would be good, as for those results I would gladly wait a whole year), but it is not clear.


 I agree, I feel the results are questionable. I remain optimistic, however.

----------


## clandestine

> Just wanted to throw it out there that I'm also trialing dermarolling with a 1.5mm roller after having seen the recent study reports, even if the claimed density results seemed literally unbelievable. I have to add that I'm not interested in replicating the study. 
> 
> I would classify myself as somewhere between NW3 and NW4. I first started 1mg finasteride a little less than a decade ago and was on it almost 2 years. Looking back, I think it did wonders in regrowing from NW2 to NW1 over 16 months and then maintaining. I was feeling like my nipples were getting softer and bigger and was getting iffy about messing with my hormones so I dropped it. I then used minox for a year until I got a serious girlfriend and quit everything altogether. A few years back I got serious about it again for 6 months and tried daily RU and Dutasteride twice a week, both for the first time. 
> 
> I ended up moving out of my home country for a while and it became difficult to obtain these kinds of products so I waited until I recently returned. So a few months ago, I decided to throw the kitchen sink at it in a last ditch attempt to miraculously recover to perhaps NW2 level? I was a good responder before so I'm hoping it's not too late and I can still reverse the damage that happened the last couple of years. I'm committing to a solid year of the following regimen to see if this is possible:
> 
> 
> 
> I use the 1.5mm dermaroller every 4-6 days (usually the day I buzz down with either no-guard or the lowest guard) until i get little specs of blood over the whole horseshoe area, which I then wash off and then immediately apply Polaris NR-10 16% minox. I use this minox twice daily, dermarolling or not.
> ...


 That is a seriously impressive regimen. I wish my body could handle all that.

Add CB, you might just cure hair loss.

----------


## KeepHoping

I'm trying to follow the studies protocol Tracy... I can't be sure if I'm dermarolling correctly because I'm the one doing it but I'm doing it once a week and not starting the minoxidil until 24hrs afterward.  I'm a diffuse thinner as well and took some baseline shots so if I see anything of cosmetic difference I will take after shots and try to post a comparison for you guys.  I have been on fin for like 3 years now just fyi in case that skews the data.  Wishing everyone the best of luck!

----------


## chimera

> No exactly clear in my opinion. The way it's phrased doesn't tell us if they were STILL on fin and minox when they started microneedling. Either way, it says they had no improvement prior to microneedling so it's not like it gave them much of an advantage, that's the key.


 Well I don't know about minox, but about fin:

*-Men on Finasteride or other anti-androgenic medications within past 6 months, any known systemic Illness were excluded-*

----------


## DesperateOne

> Cetrizine will not grow hair. i wouldnt waste your time. most people report only increased shedding.


 Where did you see this? I saw that people gained peach hair.

----------


## Chromeo

> Where did you see this? I saw that people gained peach hair.


 It does indeed. I used it for almost a year.

----------


## brunobald

http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01347957

Another possible stimulent?




> *Preclinical studies showed the Nitric Oxide (NO) gel significantly promoted hair follicle formation and growth in both rat and mouse models.*

----------


## Tracy C

> Therefore, for those sticking to the method laid out in the study, it would not be entirely unrealistic to expect comparable results at a similar early stage. Otherwise it would have to suggest that the subjects of the test must have been exceptionally good responders, or that the results themselves are of questionable authenticity.


 ^ That is a great example of some of the reasons why a real full on study should be done.  More study participants need to be included from a wide variety of locations, age groups and general health characteristics - and a full out study should be at least six months but preferably longer.

The reported results of the pilot study are pretty hard to believe - but the idea still has merit.  The longer duration of six months minimum is far more realistic and believable.

----------


## Stevo1

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01347957
> 
> Another possible stimulent?


 Brunobald,

1) Hence, Doctor Proctor was always way ahead of his time as he has used NO in his products for over 22 years, which is how long I have been a patient. In addition, he was always big on the inflamation angle way back when and includes many ingreditents in Proxiphen to combat this. 

2) I have always used a derma-rolloer (1.5mm) on & off for product penetration, BUT have started to adhere to the study for almost 3 weeks. Hence, pressing harder (for redness, not bleeding) once a week (now 2 times total). In addition, I roll back and forth more times. RESULTS, believe it or not my hair is getting stronger and seems to be anchored more. Hence, when I do the "PULL TEST" less comes out.  

3) More importantly, today I started scratching my scalp and a ton of little flakes came off. HENCE....maybe the healing/natural growth factor process as begun?

4) My Anagen Growth Factors should arrive today and will apply AFTER dermarolling tonight.

5) Also, my pre-mixed CB-03-01 was shipped.

Respectfully,

Stevo1

----------


## vanityhair

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01347957
> 
> Another possible stimulent?


 
Interesting. It says it should have been completed in August - do you know if they have published their results yet?

----------


## DesperateOne

> It does indeed. I used it for almost a year.


 So you got some results with Cet? how long did it take, or have you stopped using it?

----------


## VictimOfDHT

Has any one bought derma rollers on ebay? Which ones? I can't buy from amazon (Canada) because just like everything about this rip-off country of Canada, amazon (Canada) is charging triple for the same rollers on US amazon and I don't think the US one sells to Canadians.

----------


## Chromeo

> So you got some results with Cet? how long did it take, or have you stopped using it?


 You should see the small hairs beginning to sprout very early on into your Cet regime. I noticed plenty popping up along my hairline, very encouraging. I stopped using it 5 weeks ago to copy the microneedling study. Thinking of getting back on it as it's the only thing I've used up til now that has put hair on my head.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> Where did you see this? I saw that people gained peach hair.


 if i had a dollar for every post that claimed peach fuzz growth... :Wink:

----------


## Stevo1

Interesting  today...


I have always used a derma-rolloer (1.5mm) on & off for product penetration, BUT have started to adhere to the study for almost 3 weeks. Hence, pressing harder (for redness, not bleeding) once a week (now 2 times total). In addition, I roll back and forth more times. RESULTS, believe it or not my hair is getting stronger and seems to be anchored more. Hence, when I do the "PULL TEST" less or zero comes out now. 

MORE IMPORTANTLY, today I started scratching my scalp and a ton of little flakes came off. HENCE....maybe the healing/natural growth factor process as begun...which would co-incide with intentions of study?

----------


## chimera

> MORE IMPORTANTLY, today I started scratching my scalp and a ton of little flakes came off. HENCE....maybe the healing/natural growth factor process as begun...which would co-incide with intentions of study?


 Never had flakes off due to the dermaroller before?. Another user doing deep dermaroller who says it's working for him has mentioned heavy flanking too.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Never had flakes off due to the dermaroller before?. Another user doing deep dermaroller who says it's working for him has mentioned heavy flanking too.


 I also have lots of flakes, a lot. At first I thought it was because of the minox getting stuck or something. But then I Remembered that this didnt happen before the roller. I just did my 7 session about 30 minutes ago, went as harsh as I could, but now I am thinking about getting a 2mm and some numbing gel. I didn't get any blood out, but it did hurt like hell. I guess al the flakes is the dead skin cells?

----------


## Stevo1

> I also have lots of flakes, a lot. At first I thought it was because of the minox getting stuck or something. But then I Remembered that this didnt happen before the roller. I just did my 7 session about 30 minutes ago, went as harsh as I could, but now I am thinking about getting a 2mm and some numbing gel. I didn't get any blood out, but it did hurt like hell. I guess al the flakes is the dead skin cells?


 DesperateOne,

Cool...so you experienced what I did on earlier post. 

Like I said in my earlier post, I have used derma-roller before for penetration, but never had flaking.

Now 3 weeks into deeper rolling like study I am getting flakes from dead skin.

Hopefully, this is  a good sign and shows the difference of going harder/more rolls per session, unlike when I used for just penetration.

Respectfully,

Stevo1

----------


## Chromeo

> if i had a dollar for every post that claimed peach fuzz growth...


 Did you actually look at the pictures of growth from the users on the German forum? Quite clear to see if you ask me. 

Yes, I have experienced flaking from dermarolling. If you're not experiencing flaking, I'd have to think you are not doing it properly. You need to damage that skin, otherwise you are just wasting your time. Damaged skin discards.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Did you actually look at the pictures of growth from the users on the German forum? Quite clear to see if you ask me. 
> 
> Yes, I have experienced flaking from dermarolling. If you're not experiencing flaking, I'd have to think you are not doing it properly. You need to damage that skin, otherwise you are just wasting your time. Damaged skin discards.


 
I just go my CET today, how many times did you apply it? Did you follow the protocol the Germans put? Dissolve in water and and remove the sluge? And what ratio, I plan to blend it in lipogaine since it already has some good vehicles.

----------


## doke

> Haha, I was just messing with you, nothing serious.


 no worries desperate im ok with it haha im using miconazole nitrate with roller with some minox and also american crew recovery shampoo and foam as its got some natural anti dht in it and its one of the easyist to apply after shampoo treatments and not that expensive. :Smile:

----------


## Chromeo

> I just go my CET today, how many times did you apply it? Did you follow the protocol the Germans put? Dissolve in water and and remove the sluge? And what ratio, I plan to blend it in lipogaine since it already has some good vehicles.


 Yep, I used 60 tabs in 60ml of water. I put the tabs in an old minox container & filled it with water, left it for a day to dissolve. Some were removing the filler but I just let it settle at the bottom & drew solution off the top with the dropper.

----------


## baldee

4 weeks of dermarolling. No new hair sprouting. Not even peach fuzz. Then again nothing works for me.

Dermarolling is painful... but not as painful as loosing your hair.

----------


## Chromeo

> 4 weeks of dermarolling. No new hair sprouting. Not even peach fuzz. Then again nothing works for me.
> 
> Dermarolling is painful... but not as painful as loosing your hair.


 How are you measuring it, are you taking macro photographs or just looking in the mirror? Also, how long is your hair (if you have any) and which length needles are you using? You sound like quite an unfortunate case.

You're damn right it's painful...but I'm actually looking forward to my 6th week of rolling tonight. Not looking forward to the pain, of course...but eager to make more progress. Good luck guys and gals.

----------


## the_dude78

> 4 weeks of dermarolling. No new hair sprouting. Not even peach fuzz. Then again nothing works for me.
> 
> Dermarolling is painful... but not as painful as loosing your hair.


 
It's too early to say anything after only 4 weeks. 

From the study:
"*Initiation of new hair growth was noticeable by around 6 weeks*"

This doesn't necessarily mean that everybody will see new hair growth after only 6 weeks. And also "initiation of new hair growth", I'm guessing you'd have to look very carefully before you see anything at all after just 6 weeks.

People need to give this time and not lose hope just because nothing happens after a month. It takes time to grow hair!

----------


## DesperateOne

> It's too early to say anything after only 4 weeks. 
> 
> From the study:
> "*Initiation of new hair growth was noticeable by around 6 weeks*"
> 
> This doesn't necessarily mean that everybody will see new hair growth after only 6 weeks. And also "initiation of new hair growth", I'm guessing you'd have to look very carefully before you see anything at all after just 6 weeks.
> 
> People need to give this time and not lose hope just because nothing happens after a month. It takes time to grow hair!


 I think you're forgetting the fact that people are desperate, as well they should be. This damn curse ruins lifes, such a stupid desease really, you lose hair in a pattern like form wow.

I think we should see results pretty soon because its about wounding and it should grow relatively quick once the wound is healed.

----------


## Hal0

Hi,

I will add Lithioderm 8 % (http://www.labcatal.com/index.php?op...ogie&Itemid=13) to my regimen.

But i need your opinion :

Should I apply this gel every morning / evening  (like the instruction for use say )

or

Apply this before (or after) my dermarolling session?




PS: Sorry for my bad grammar =)

----------


## the_dude78

> I think you're forgetting the fact that people are desperate, as well they should be. This damn curse ruins lifes, such a stupid desease really, you lose hair in a pattern like form wow.
> 
> I think we should see results pretty soon because its about wounding and it should grow relatively quick once the wound is healed.


 I'm not forgetting that people are desperate. It's very obvious.  :Smile:  But still, try to have patience, there is no reason why we should see results earlier than the 6 weeks if we are, more or less, following the same steps as in the study. It just seems like people are getting really disappointed when nothing has happened after a few weeks, just do your rolling and don't think too much about it for the next 6-12 weeks. Easier said than done, I know, and we all really, really want this to work, but it'll save you from a lot of negative thoughts and stress if you can stop looking for new hairs every time you look in the mirror  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

> Hi,
> 
> I will add Lithioderm 8 % (http://www.labcatal.com/index.php?op...ogie&Itemid=13) to my regimen.
> 
> But i need your opinion :
> 
> Should I apply this gel every morning / evening  (like the instruction for use say )
> 
> or
> ...


 If youre going to try to add lithium, I highly recommend you look into and read in full Follica's patent and their method of application for wounding + regrowth. Essentially, they spilled the beans. Lithium has been tried years ago with dermarolling but it failed. I'd advise against using it without first read this:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...1&postcount=61

It should be added, but whats needed is knowledge of when and how its applied.

----------


## thinningTooSoon

Had my 2nd session tonight, seemed to be much easier than the 1st, so don't be put off if you found it painful 1st time round people  :Smile:

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys anybody else saw regrowth ? there is a guy on *** similar forum posted some good regrowth pics..

i really dont want to go sleep again knowing we dont see regrowth,,,

wish we get it..

goodnight.......

----------


## DesperateOne

> guys anybody else saw regrowth ? there is a guy on *** similar forum posted some good regrowth pics..
> 
> i really dont want to go sleep again knowing we dont see regrowth,,,
> 
> wish we get it..
> 
> goodnight.......


 Squeegee is getting some regrowth on ***. We also found that we can induce gfg-9 by applying sperm to it, since it has pge2 and that in turn induces gfg-9. Once I grow my hair back, I will have to charge woman to jizz on their head  :Big Grin:

----------


## hellouser

> Squeegee is getting some regrowth on ***. We also found that we can induce gfg-9 by applying sperm to it, since it has pge2 and that in turn induces gfg-9. Once I grow my hair back, I will have to charge woman to jizz on their head


 I keep seeing comments about guys using their sperm as a topical.... I dont know anymore if this is a joke anymore or not. I just did a quick search in Google for 'FGF-9 sperm' and there are results popping up for the two... which begs the question:

Is anyone REALLY masturbating and applying their sperm as a topical solution in some kind of vehicle?

----------


## DesperateOne

> I keep seeing comments about guys using their sperm as a topical.... I dont know anymore if this is a joke anymore or not. I just did a quick search in Google for 'FGF-9 sperm' and there are results popping up for the two... which begs the question:
> 
> Is anyone REALLY masturbating and applying their sperm as a topical solution in some kind of vehicle?


 
Yes it's true, there is medical journals that suggest this. I tried it today for the first time, I mixed it with lipogaine so it can reach the follicle. To tell you the truth, I don't really care anymore, if it takes this and a 3mm, then so be it.

----------


## hellouser

> Yes it's true, there is medical journals that suggest this. I tried it today for the first time, I mixed it with lipogaine so it can reach the follicle. To tell you the truth, I don't really care anymore, if it takes this and a 3mm, then so be it.


 I'm not grossed out by my own baby batter (its mine, why would I be?), so I'd have no problem with it either, but the whole concept sounds so...... uh... well, you know.

However, FGF-9 has a molecular weight of 23,000 dalton. Human skin only allowes about 500 dalton to pass through. Microneedling is supposed to allow up to around 10,000;

http://dermapen.com/micro-needling-drug-delivery/

If you guys really are doing it, then even dermarolling won't help. You'd need to basically strip away skin substantially, a large and wide wound would have to be there in order for FGF-9 to work its magic. Dermabrasion could be it. Another member posted a biopsy punch device on eBay as well, that could work.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I'm not grossed out by my own baby batter (its mine, why would I be?), so I'd have no problem with it either, but the whole concept sounds so...... uh... well, you know.
> 
> However, FGF-9 has a molecular weight of 23,000 dalton. Human skin only allowes about 500 dalton to pass through. Microneedling is supposed to allow up to around 10,000;
> 
> http://dermapen.com/micro-needling-drug-delivery/
> 
> If you guys really are doing it, then even dermarolling won't help. You'd need to basically strip away skin substantially, a large and wide wound would have to be there in order for FGF-9 to work its magic. Dermabrasion could be it. Another member posted a biopsy punch device on eBay as well, that could work.


 Well we have already agreed that we need a 2.5mm or a 3.0mm and do it very aggressively, do you honk that would be deep enough? Also, would you think that we should apply it minutes after that mutilation, or wait a few hours when the growth factors made their way to the wound. 

The journals don't say that sperm has gfg-9, but that it induces it, maybe it can go deep enough and then induce the gfg-9. Would you say applying it with lipogaine is a bad idea? I mean it could kill some stuff needed to work its magic, would you say not?

----------


## Thinning87

> Well we have already agreed that we need a 2.5mm or a 3.0mm and do it very aggressively, do you honk that would be deep enough? Also, would you think that we should apply it minutes after that mutilation, or wait a few hours when the growth factors made their way to the wound. 
> 
> The journals don't say that sperm has gfg-9, but that it induces it, maybe it can go deep enough and then induce the gfg-9. Would you say applying it with lipogaine is a bad idea? I mean it could kill some stuff needed to work its magic, would you say not?


 It's FGF9 dude not GFG9

----------


## Koga

Seriously.. Are guys really rubbing semen on their heads to grow hair?? No wonder hair keeps sprouting on my gf's face...lol  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## DesperateOne

> It's FGF9 dude not GFG9


 Thanks, usually type on my phone, so I tend to dismiss things

----------


## fred970

I reported this thread, this is going too far. Are you really suggesting people to butcher their scalp and then put sperm on it?

I have a feeling this is going to end up like cetirizine.

----------


## hellouser

> Well we have already agreed that we need a 2.5mm or a 3.0mm and do it very aggressively, do you honk that would be deep enough? Also, would you think that we should apply it minutes after that mutilation, or wait a few hours when the growth factors made their way to the wound. 
> 
> The journals don't say that sperm has gfg-9, but that it induces it, maybe it can go deep enough and then induce the gfg-9. Would you say applying it with lipogaine is a bad idea? I mean it could kill some stuff needed to work its magic, would you say not?


 I really don't know, if ejaculated sperm doesn't contain FGF-9 then I wouldn't bother. I only saw bits of info where FGF-9 was induced when sperm was developed.

Before any of you are doing anything with your own scalp and semen, you'd need to find out what the exact properties of it; does it contain FGF-9 or not and what else that may pose any potential risks. Though, to be realistic, many women and gay men swallow it during sex without any side effects, that should give us a hint as to its safety and thats taking in someone elses fluids. Its pretty much impossible to infect yourself so the chances of anything happen with your own are even slimmer than someone else taking yours.

Interesting ideas seeing how the makeup of semen could have benefits, I mean, that is half of the very beginnings of the human form. I think we're veering off course though from this thread's purpose. Further talk should be taken to a new thread.

----------


## Thinning87

Don't freak out all at once because you read the word "sperm"

----------


## DesperateOne

> I reported this thread, this is going too far. Are you really suggesting people to butcher their scalp and then put sperm on it?
> 
> I have a feeling this is going to end up like cetirizine.


 Where in the world are we suggesting this. We are just saying what our options might be, and if it works then you will do it yourself I bet. I don't know why people are so negative about experimentation, there is no way we can do better than scientist, all we have is trials. Over the years we have gone through wild goose chases but if we hadn't, we would have to try all those things out eventually. So if you're against that, then that means you're just waiting for a company cure, so what are you even doing here. No one is forcing you to do ANYTHING including coming here.

----------


## chimera

> I reported this thread, this is going too far. Are you really suggesting people to butcher their scalp and then put sperm on it?
> 
> I have a feeling this is going to end up like cetirizine.


 Yeah, I have suggested that applying semen in your head my be helpful. Now, just let me ask you one single question?, do you know why? I mean, do you know the mechanism behid it?...

----------


## chimera

> I really don't know, if ejaculated sperm doesn't contain FGF-9 then I wouldn't bother. I only saw bits of info where FGF-9 was induced when sperm was developed.


 I did not knew about fgf9. But apparently, spermidine is a hair growth stimulator, and also, human semen has a moderate quantity of PGE2.

----------


## hellouser

> I did not knew about fgf9. But apparently, spermidine is a hair growth stimulator, and also, human semen has a moderate quantity of PGE2.


 Yes, but semen certainly has other properties that may be detrimental. I know the substance isn't foreign, but... I'd rather ask some scientist. Not anyone like Cotsarelis though, he's got too much at stake with Follica. Someone independent and removed from the hair loss world.

I think we need some research first before doing anything wild.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I did not knew about fgf9. But apparently, spermidine is a hair growth stimulator, and also, human semen has a moderate quantity of PGE2.


 Where did you read it was a hair growth stimulator? I know that the logic behind my reading is that it does have pge2. I guess that why they say that joke, that you have hair in your hands because you were jacking off lol

----------


## chimera

> I reported this thread, this is going too far. Are you really suggesting people to butcher their scalp and then put sperm on it?
> 
> I have a feeling this is going to end up like cetirizine.


 Also, why do you care if we apply semen in our heads. Where's the problem?, semen is not dangerous, not at all. Did not you got boobs for playing with finasteride before?, why don't you go and report all those threads of crazy people playing with their hormones first?, now that's really dangerous.

----------


## chimera

> Where did you read it was a hair growth stimulator? I know that the logic behind my reading is that it does have pge2. I guess that why they say that joke, that you have hair in your hands because you were jacking off lol


 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0022564

----------


## hellouser

As mentioned, the semen hypothesis should be taken to another thread. If its in serious tone, it won't be taken down. Dont worry about Fred reporting it. Lets stay on track with dermarolling/wounding.

----------


## fred970

> Also, why do you care if we apply semen in our heads. Where's the problem?, semen is not dangerous, not at all. Did not you got boobs for playing with finasteride before?, why don't you go and report all those threads of crazy people playing with their hormones first?, now that's really dangerous.


 I've never taken finasteride. I got boobs because of psychiatric medication. Dermatologists usually don't prescribe finasteride for hair loss here in Belgium.

Semen is not dangerous, but I would appreciate if young hair loss sufferers could keep their dignity. Using semen to grow hair, why didn't anyone think of that before?! Jeez (no pun intended)...

----------


## DesperateOne

> I've never taken finasteride. I got boobs because of psychiatric medication. Dermatologists usually don't prescribe finasteride for hair loss here in Belgium.
> 
> Semen is not dangerous, but I would appreciate if young hair loss sufferers could keep their dignity. Using semen to grow hair, why didn't anyone think of that before?! Jeez (no pun intended)...


 dignity? are you freaking kidding me. What would you do if you wound that semen is the holy grail? Would you disregard it? If you're disgusted by your own semen, then that's your problem, I guess if it was someone else's but it's your own stuff.

----------


## Tracy C

OMG!!!

That would not be very helpful for FPB at all.  LOL

----------


## greatjob!

Every time I log on here I think this place couldn't possibly get any crazier, and every time I am wrong.

----------


## hellouser

> OMG!!!
> 
> That would not be very helpful for FPB at all.  LOL


 Well, depending how you perform in the sack, it could be very helpful.

----------


## Pentarou

We reeaaallly (IMO) need a 'log' thread with jut people stating if they are doing the protocol, or some variation thereof, e.g. larger or smaller dermaroller needles, more wounding sessions per weeks, and updating if anything changes. This thread is getting crowded.

BTW I'm getting too reminded of some cetirizine and random experimentations carried out on forums last year after the prostaglandin announcement, I hope this doesn't end up being dud like all that turned out to be. I only paid attention to this because of the crossover with what Follica are doing.

----------


## DesperateOne

> We reeaaallly (IMO) need a 'log' thread with jut people stating if they are doing the protocol, or some variation thereof, e.g. larger or smaller dermaroller needles, more wounding sessions per weeks, and updating if anything changes. This thread is getting crowded.
> 
> BTW I'm getting too reminded of some cetirizine and random experimentations carried out on forums last year after the prostaglandin announcement, I hope this doesn't end up being dud like all that turned out to be. I only paid attention to this because of the crossover with what Follica are doing.


 There is something to this method, people are seeing good results including me. The hair grows thicker, that's for sure, but I do t know abou new ones.

----------


## DesperateOne

> OMG!!!
> 
> That would not be very helpful for FPB at all.  LOL


 Come on Tracy, take one for the female community, it might work wonders for women. Haha  :Big Grin:

----------


## NeedHairASAP

If semen worked then my girlfriend would have a beard.

----------


## john2399

> If semen worked then my girlfriend would have a beard.


 good one.

----------


## fred970

Can we go back to the real topic please? 

Almost 3 weeks in with the 1,5 mm roller and minoxidil for me. And I think I think I'm starting to see some change, but it could just be my mind tricking me.

----------


## LevonHelms

Last night was roll 7 for me.  
I'm seeing the usual, lots of vellus hairs and a few terminals popping up around the hairline.  What's really blowing my mind is how fast those new terminals are growing.  Seems like double the usual rate of growth.  Anyone else seeing this?

----------


## hellouser

> Last night was roll 7 for me.  
> I'm seeing the usual, lots of vellus hairs and a few terminals popping up around the hairline.  What's really blowing my mind is how fast those new terminals are growing.  Seems like double the usual rate of growth.  Anyone else seeing this?


 Still NOTHING on my end. Bah.

----------


## Thinning87

Guys it would be great to see more before and after pictures if you can

----------


## DesperateOne

> Guys it would be great to see more before and after pictures if you can


 Sure, why don't you lead by example

----------


## Thinning87

> Sure, why don't you lead by example


 Maybe because I'm not dermarolling...?

What's with the tone get off your period man

----------


## LongWayHome

There is one thing I don't understand:

Is everyone who uses that method, the dermarolling + minox,
takes fin too? or another DHT blocker?

I wonder if it's even worth trying if your DHT is still kicking in your body.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

from my understanding and the study this looks like the growth factors are being released. maybe roll more? and wait more in between...

i am sorry here .

hellouser and other rep members i have an interesting q

do we all heal in the same pace?


> Last night was roll 7 for me.  
> I'm seeing the usual, lots of vellus hairs and a few terminals popping up around the hairline.  What's really blowing my mind is how fast those new terminals are growing.  Seems like double the usual rate of growth.  Anyone else seeing this?

----------


## Hal0

> There is one thing I don't understand:
> 
> Is everyone who uses that method, the dermarolling + minox,
> takes fin too? or another DHT blocker?
> 
> I wonder if it's even worth trying if your DHT is still kicking in your body.


 I'm actually trying with Fin, but i dont use minox..

----------


## thinningTooSoon

I am on my 2nd week of the derma rolling trial, still very optimistic, and I know it's way too early too see results from this trial. 

However, I am not sure if its a coincidence but my hair seems to be thinner, I have just started using this shampoo on a daily basis:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ls_o01_s00_i00

I have read that these shampoos can cause shedding if used too often, any advice would be appreciated.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Maybe because I'm not dermarolling...?
> 
> What's with the tone get off your period man


 What tone? It's a simple answer, but if you're not doing the trial yourself, why do you feel you have any say in this?

----------


## DesperateOne

> There is one thing I don't understand:
> 
> Is everyone who uses that method, the dermarolling + minox,
> takes fin too? or another DHT blocker?
> 
> I wonder if it's even worth trying if your DHT is still kicking in your body.


 I think that if you're not taking a DHT blocker and have your hair loss relatively under control, then this is useless. You will keep losing hair and you will not notice the positive effects of it if any. Then you will hear all sorts of people that are not on fin, oh this stuff doesn't work.

----------


## the_dude78

> There is one thing I don't understand:
> 
> Is everyone who uses that method, the dermarolling + minox,
> takes fin too? or another DHT blocker?
> 
> I wonder if it's even worth trying if your DHT is still kicking in your body.


 In the study we're trying to replicate, the participants weren't on fin, so if the study is legit you should see results with only dermarolling+minoxidil.

----------


## Thinning87

> What tone? It's a simple answer, but if you're not doing the trial yourself, why do you feel you have any say in this?


 It's the answer of a woman on her period, and you're continuing to a that way.

The fact that I'm not participating in the trial doesn't mean that I can't ask if people can post more pictures. I am considering to start as well, I'm not trying to change what other people are doing. 

So shut your mouth.

----------


## DesperateOne

> It's the answer of a woman on her period, and you're continuing to a that way.
> 
> The fact that I'm not participating in the trial doesn't mean that I can't ask if people can post more pictures. I am considering to start as well, I'm not trying to change what other people are doing. 
> 
> So shut your mouth.


 I was unaware that you're able to sense tone in words, considering you can't hear it. But I you say so, I can say the same thing, you're demanding in a very bad tony, pictures.

So YOU shut up and stop demanding, if you're not contributing, you're slowing us down, so go to hell.

----------


## Thinning87

> I was unaware that you're able to sense tone in words, considering you can't hear it. But I you say so, I can say the same thing, you're demanding in a very bad tony, pictures.
> 
> So YOU shut up and stop demanding, if you're not contributing, you're slowing us down, so go to hell.


 It's very simple: I'm a member of the forum and I can therefore participate to all threads and ask if people can post pictures, especially if they claim improvement. 

That's why we're here in the first place, you dumb******.

----------


## Borealis

Take your petty squabbling elsewhere guys, the rest of us couldn't care less for it. Let's reserve the thread for actual insight/information.

----------


## hellouser

Has anyone been shedding SKIN in large flakes while dermarolling?

----------


## mrblazer

Yes hellouser this is happening with me lasting 3-4 days after rolling. I apply oils after rolling which help though.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Yes hellouser this is happening with me lasting 3-4 days after rolling. I apply oils after rolling which help though.


 Same here, but I don't apply oils, thinking of applying Mico though.

----------


## brunobald

I bought this cheap usb microscope for taking pictures of seeds for work. I also wanted it for taking pictures of my scalp when I start dermarolling. Here are some sample I took about an hour ago. This scope would be awesome to view the wounds from a dermaroller.

Pic 1........Beard Hair
Pic 2........Close up of follicle
Pic 3........Thinning Patch.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veho-VMS-0...item2a05a26a8b

----------


## LongWayHome

> In the study we're trying to replicate, the participants weren't on fin, so if the study is legit you should see results with only dermarolling+minoxidil.


 Thank you.

----------


## LevonHelms

> Has anyone been shedding SKIN in large flakes while dermarolling?


 No, not that I've noticed.  And I'm rolling hard, looks similar to the pic you posted after I'm done.  Seems there are some other guys seeing skin flaking though so I'm not sure what to make of that.

----------


## GreyGhost1864

My first 4 rolling sessions no flaking. My 5th my whole scalp peeled. The skin on my scalp is baby skin soft. Lots of elongated blond hairs. Was thinking about doing a quick just for men hair color then doing pics. Will be 41 in Nov. Just want a few good years. Pray fellas!
Ghost

----------


## Conpecia

> My first 4 rolling sessions no flaking. My 5th my whole scalp peeled. The skin on my scalp is baby skin soft. Lots of elongated blond hairs. Was thinking about doing a quick just for men hair color then doing pics. Will be 41 in Nov. Just want a few good years. Pray fellas!
> Ghost


 still got a solid 20 years ghost my dad is 62 and pulling women like crazy on the online dating sites

----------


## DesperateOne

> No, not that I've noticed.  And I'm rolling hard, looks similar to the pic you posted after I'm done.  Seems there are some other guys seeing skin flaking though so I'm not sure what to make of that.


 I think you will notice on week 5 or so, like me, I shake my hair and see lots of it. I think those are the skin cells from the first roll I did. Maybe your skin takes longer to heal, would you say you have soft or hard skin. I personally have soft skin, if that helps. I think by dermarolling we are providing a lot of good nutrients to the scalp, like a corn field, adding fertilizer.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> Has anyone been shedding SKIN in large flakes while dermarolling?


 
no large flakes but definitely an increase of skin shed, lots of it.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

What do you guys use to clean your dermaroller? I know it's somewhere in this thread but can't find it. Some alcohol.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

And will this one be good enough?

http://www.amazon.com/Microneedle-Sy...s=derma+roller

----------


## Chromeo

> And will this one be good enough?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Microneedle-Sy...s=derma+roller


 Yes.

----------


## JDW

> I bought this cheap usb microscope for taking pictures of seeds for work. I also wanted it for taking pictures of my scalp when I start dermarolling. Here are some sample I took about an hour ago. This scope would be awesome to view the wounds from a dermaroller.
> 
> Pic 1........Beard Hair
> Pic 2........Close up of follicle
> Pic 3........Thinning Patch.
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veho-VMS-0...item2a05a26a8b


 Excellent pics man, any way to ensure you're taking shots o the same area? Would be interesting to see developments

----------


## brunobald

> Excellent pics man, any way to ensure you're taking shots o the same area? Would be interesting to see developments


 I have a few ideas.

1. Hena ink to mark an area. stains the skin for months
2. Sewing needle Pin prick and tattoo ink to mark the area. You can buy tattoo ink for about $2 on ebay new.
3. Take pics near a scar, mole or birthmark if you have one.
4. Make a resin cast of your face, then permenetly mount the camera in the cast. The cast would be like a face mask that you index onto your face. Your facial features would make sure it always sits back in the same spot. This is overkill but it would mean you don't need a tattoo or mark on the skin.

----------


## hellouser

> I have a few ideas.
> 
> *1. Hena ink to mark an area. stains the skin for months*


 Fantastic idea! Actually, Henna's only last about a week. But just make a small dot wherever needed and keep applying it every week.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys anyone seeing results?

----------


## bigentries

4 sessions on the hairline and still nothing, no vellus coming out

I'll complete the 12 weeks, but at this point I don't trust the study anymore

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

you roll deep enough? i think after 6 sessions the results appear..... 


> 4 sessions on the hairline and still nothing, no vellus coming out
> 
> I'll complete the 12 weeks, but at this point I don't trust the study anymore

----------


## Stocione

Multiple people have reported results, but they are all deep wounding - meaning drawing significant amounts of blood. Also note, that folks with a recalcitrant minoxidil treatment past won't likely see mind blowing results, just improved results. Of the 12 individual who used fin/minox in the past WITHOUT success, there was a split between those that had a +1 or +2 response. 

************ is a bit better for following users with success, as the folks there are a bit more aggressive in their wounding.

----------


## Stocione

I also had a brief exchange with one of the researchers on the study. He indicated that they were drawing blood when rolling. Mild erythmia apparently meant that they stopped once they started noting blood throughout the scalp. So if you aren't bleeding, I recommend pressing harder and faster. It really doesn't hurt that much as you will have adrenaline pumping from the vigor of the motion. I actually hurts more to go slow and shallow.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

nice post so i am jumbing on for sure i guess,i also noticed the good results of ***.

thanks

hope it works . for now on i am testing minox foam for allercic reactions then i buzz or shave and do the study HARD


> Multiple people have reported results, but they are all deep wounding - meaning drawing significant amounts of blood. Also note, that folks with a recalcitrant minoxidil treatment past won't likely see mind blowing results, just improved results. Of the 12 individual who used fin/minox in the past WITHOUT success, there was a split between those that had a +1 or +2 response. 
> 
> ************ is a bit better for following users with success, as the folks there are a bit more aggressive in their wounding.

----------


## clandestine

> you roll deep enough? i think after 6 sessions the results appear.....


 Study was undergone for *12 weeks*.

Our members should hope to do the same.

----------


## clandestine

I've been on minoxidil for 4 days now, will start my derma rolling session tonight with a 1.0mm roller. Will in time move up to 1.5mm.

----------


## bigentries

Are there any pics? 

The only pics I've seen here are not that impressive and difficult to compare. Just keep your emotions in check, people were also claiming that voltaren was the cure a few months ago because a guy was getting some results with it and minox but it lead nowhere in the end

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> What do you guys use to clean your dermaroller? I know it's somewhere in this thread but can't find it. Some alcohol.


 ^ Some one, please.

----------


## Buster

> ^ Some one, please.


 From what I've read people are using Isopropyl or betadine.

----------


## Stocione

Not that impressive? It's been like five or six weeks since people started... And yes, there are photos over there. This also has an actual double blind study plus numerous cotz studies supporting its theory. I sincerely doubt it won't do something... although most people on these boards are likely recalcitrant to minoxidil (or they wouldn't be messing around with experimental treatments) so the results won't be quite as good as some experienced in the study.

----------


## bigentries

> Not that impressive? It's been like five or six weeks since people started... And yes, there are photos over there. This also has an actual double blind study plus numerous cotz studies supporting its theory. I sincerely doubt it won't do something... although most people on these boards are likely recalcitrant to minoxidil (or they wouldn't be messing around with experimental treatments) so the results won't be quite as good as some experienced in the study.


 Double blind? How was the study double blind?

The thing is that, the results were impressive, and claimed to be significant at 6 weeks, you would expect people to be reporting something by now, as far as I know, only one guy in the thread has shown something

And the question of the length of the hair in the study hasn't been clarified, there is no way their hair grew that fast in just 3 months

Edit: My bad, the evaluator is claimed to be blind in the study

----------


## Stocione

Just saw your edit, but in any case we know there is no placebo effect associated with hair growth - look at pretty much any control side study and they lose hair. 

Anyway, they claimed new follicles at six weeks although the degree of significance and cosmetic appearance is not made clear. What's more, that's the earliest they noted growth - meaning that some responders may not have seen anything in that time frame. Given how few people are doing 1.5mm deep wounding with bleeding AND a shaved head, it's not surprising we have so few positive reports and photos so far. But we DO have some positive reports and WE do have two or three people with photos floating around. I'm somewhat surprised that you would think we have more. I'd wager there are only twenty or thirty people doing this with the correct length and intensity and most of them probably don't have shaved heads. Give it time and stay optimistic. Not every microneedler saw a +3 response but every single one saw some positive response. 

The length of the hair is actually explained in one of the figures where they note that the rate of regrowth is increased significantly in the microneedilng group. I asked the researcher about this and he confirmed that many individuals in the microneedling group had accelerated hair growth rates.

----------


## chimera

> And the question of the length of the hair in the study hasn't been clarified, there is no way their hair grew that fast in just 3 months


 This bothers me a lot too...




> The length of the hair is actually explained in one of the figures where they note that the rate of regrowth is increased significantly in the microneedilng group. I asked the researcher about this and he confirmed that many individuals in the microneedling group had accelerated hair growth rates.


 Yeah, but if not some kind of regrowth, then I think that we should be able to see at least this effect by now... and we're not

----------


## bigentries

> Just saw your edit, but in any case we know there is no placebo effect associated with hair growth - look at pretty much any control side study and they lose hair. 
> 
> Anyway, they claimed new follicles at six weeks although the degree of significance and cosmetic appearance is not made clear. What's more, that's the earliest they noted growth - meaning that some responders may not have seen anything in that time frame. Given how few people are doing 1.5mm deep wounding with bleeding AND a shaved head, it's not surprising we have so few positive reports and photos so far. But we DO have some positive reports and WE do have two or three people with photos floating around. I'm somewhat surprised that you would think we have more. I'd wager there are only twenty or thirty people doing this with the correct length and intensity and most of them probably don't have shaved heads. Give it time and stay optimistic. Not every microneedler saw a +3 response but every single one saw some positive response. 
> 
> The length of the hair is actually explained in one of the figures where they note that the rate of regrowth is increased significantly in the microneedilng group. I asked the researcher about this and he confirmed that many individuals in the microneedling group had accelerated hair growth rates.


 Again, as far as I know, only one guy has shown pics, and while at least he is getting something, it's not the amount of growth reported and easily explained with just minox use. And it wasn't just the dermarolling group, one pic in the minox group also shows an extreme grow for just 3 months

I'm sorry but "remaining optimistic" usually means to avoid any critical thinking in hair loss forums, I choose to remain skeptic, not "negative", I'm still on the trial, but I refuse to fool myself into not seeing that some things just don't add up

----------


## greatjob!

You guys are just repeating every mistake everyone has ever made on this and other forums. People on here jump on and off treatments because they didn't see results within a month or two, and they never know if it would have worked because they didn't wait long enough. I know what the study said, but you can't realistically expect any treatment for hairloss to show cosmetic results before 6 months or longer. There is a reason why fin and minox take time to work, and it's not because they are shit treatments, it's because it takes time to reverse miniaturization and hair grows at a snails pace. Everyone needs to relax. Just roll every week and try not to think about it. I'm planning on doing this for a year before I decide if I will quit or not.

----------


## Thinning87

Well said

----------


## LevonHelms

> This bothers me a lot too...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but if not some kind of regrowth, then I think that we should be able to see at least this effect by now... and we're not


 I am! My hair is without a doubt, growing crazy fast.

----------


## clandestine

Everyone;

How long do we let the roller soak in Isopropyl in order to clean it after rolling? A couple minutes?

----------


## DesperateOne

For those of you who are doing this experiment without minox, it will be useless to you. It has already been proven by Dr. Cot that Derma rolling alone will create peach fuzz but that's it, it will not create terminal hair. Just saying this because I know there is a few people out there that are doing this experiment without the minox. Also, yes if you really want to see results, then you will need to do it more aggressively, I have already ordered my 2.5mm roller and it should be here next week. There is some people that say that the 2.5mm actually hurts less than the 1.5mm, I do hope that is true. It might be because when you get a deeper wound, usually your body tries to counteract with natural painkillers produced in your brain. Anyway, good luck to every and remember to be consistent and do it for at least 6 months.

----------


## greatjob!

About the pain, I'm not condoning drug use but before I roll I have a few drinks and "shmoke a belw" (for my workaholic fans) and I feel nothing. Better than jerking off or rubbing jizz on your head or whatever other members were talking about.

----------


## LongWayHome

> For those of you who are doing this experiment without minox, it will be useless to you. It has already been proven by Dr. Cot that Derma rolling alone will create peach fuzz but that's it, it will not create terminal hair. Just saying this because I know there is a few people out there that are doing this experiment without the minox. Also, yes if you really want to see results, then you will need to do it more aggressively, I have already ordered my 2.5mm roller and it should be here next week. There is some people that say that the 2.5mm actually hurts less than the 1.5mm, I do hope that is true. It might be because when you get a deeper wound, usually your body tries to counteract with natural painkillers produced in your brain. Anyway, good luck to every and remember to be consistent and do it for at least 6 months.


 That's the spirit.

----------


## doke

I got balkan 176 its 88% volume in uk from whisky exchange.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys is 540 needles not good? might it work less? can find 192 in my area....

http://www.droller.gr/store/

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i ordered it
will it do as 192?

----------


## clandestine

> Everyone;
> 
> How long do we let the roller soak in Isopropyl in order to clean it after rolling? A couple minutes?


 Please someone answer;

----------


## Stocione

Let it soak overnight, that's what I do.

----------


## Stocione

No, 192 gives better penetration and deeper wounding for sure. Think of the person sleeping on a bed of needles.

----------


## Stocione

> You guys are just repeating every mistake everyone has ever made on this and other forums. People on here jump on and off treatments because they didn't see results within a month or two, and they never know if it would have worked because they didn't wait long enough. I know what the study said, but you can't realistically expect any treatment for hairloss to show cosmetic results before 6 months or longer. There is a reason why fin and minox take time to work, and it's not because they are shit treatments, it's because it takes time to reverse miniaturization and hair grows at a snails pace. Everyone needs to relax. Just roll every week and try not to think about it. I'm planning on doing this for a year before I decide if I will quit or not.


 


> Again, as far as I know, only one guy has shown pics, and while at least he is getting something, it's not the amount of growth reported and easily explained with just minox use. And it wasn't just the dermarolling group, one pic in the minox group also shows an extreme grow for just 3 months
> 
> I'm sorry but "remaining optimistic" usually means to avoid any critical thinking in hair loss forums, I choose to remain skeptic, not "negative", I'm still on the trial, but I refuse to fool myself into not seeing that some things just don't add up


 I'm glad you are staying on the treatment but have to disagree that you are using critical thinking. It seems to me that you've been around for so long that you are allowing past treatment/experimental failures to cloud your judgement. 

The points you've raised so far have reasonable answers and I've tried to point those out to you. Everything does seem to add up, you are just allowing the lack of reliable reporters (which, sorry it's an internet forum - people aren't reliable reporters) to influence your opinion. 

On a side note, it's critical that you understand that the microneedling group had a huge standard deviation, meaning results varied rather dramatically between very strong responses and moderately strong responses. Most users here are recalcitrant to minox meaning that they will fall into the lower range of that standard deviation. That means they might not see the maximal results expressed in the study. 

Some people saw a greater increase in hair growth rate and overall hair counts than others in the microneedling group. It's misguided to expect everyone who's doing this trial to have the maximal response. So you'll have to understand that until we reach the three month mark, we really won't know much for sure. 

Additionally, two people have actually posted photos over on ***, not one. Both have noted an increase in hair growth rate. 

So keep at it and stay as skeptical as you like. Just don't bring a ton of negativity to an otherwise exciting thread. Best of luck to you!

----------


## LevonHelms

> For those of you who are doing this experiment without minox, it will be useless to you. It has already been proven by Dr. Cot that Derma rolling alone will create peach fuzz but that's it, it will not create terminal hair. Just saying this because I know there is a few people out there that are doing this experiment without the minox. Also, yes if you really want to see results, then you will need to do it more aggressively, I have already ordered my 2.5mm roller and it should be here next week. There is some people that say that the 2.5mm actually hurts less than the 1.5mm, I do hope that is true. It might be because when you get a deeper wound, usually your body tries to counteract with natural painkillers produced in your brain. Anyway, good luck to every and remember to be consistent and do it for at least 6 months.


 That's a bit of a leap DesperateOne.  The study showing only peach fuzz growth is from 1956 not Dr. Cotsarelis, and they were using dermabrasion not needling. Both Follica and the Indian study suggested dermarolling alone may be beneficial to alopecia. 

That being said, I'm sure results will be much better with minoxidil thrown in.  

As far as needle length everything beyond sticking with the 1.5 in the study is speculation.  Yes, squeege says he's seeing great results with a 2.5.  prettyfly saw great results with a .5.  So who knows?  Most people aren't even halfway through the study.  Best of luck, keep us updated.

----------


## Stocione

It's not necessarily a leap given that there are studies that show the more severe the wounding of the epidermis the greater the inflammatory and 'stem cell mode' response of GFs. Going with 2.0mm or above ensures complete disruption of the epidermis, as the needles do not entirely penetrate the scalp at their given depth. Either way though, it's speculation to suggest it will work better, but it is informed speculation!

----------


## LevonHelms

> It's not necessarily a leap given that there are studies that show the more severe the wounding of the epidermis the greater the inflammatory and 'stem cell mode' response of GFs. Going with 2.0mm or above ensures complete disruption of the epidermis, as the needles do not entirely penetrate the scalp at their given depth. Either way though, it's speculation to suggest it will work better, but it is informed speculation!


 You have a point. There is the barbecued head guy to think about, lol.  What length you using Stoc?

----------


## brunobald

> That's a bit of a leap DesperateOne.  The study showing only peach fuzz growth is from 1956 not Dr. Cotsarelis, and they were using dermabrasion not needling. Both Follica and the Indian study suggested dermarolling alone may be beneficial to alopecia. 
> 
> That being said, I'm sure results will be much better with minoxidil thrown in.  
> 
> As far as needle length everything beyond sticking with the 1.5 in the study is speculation.  Yes, squeege says he's seeing great results with a 2.5.  prettyfly saw great results with a .5.  So who knows?  Most people aren't even halfway through the study.  Best of luck, keep us updated.


 The most recent follica patents do not suggest dermabrasion alone will give best results. In fact they suggest a combo of dermabrasion + plus deep cuts into the scalp both are made using a laser. Follica also apply lithium gluconate to supply lithium ions to the regenerating tissue this helps push the cells towards becoming hair follicules rather than plain skin.

----------


## hellouser

> The most recent follica patents do not suggest dermabrasion alone will give best results. In fact they suggest a combo of dermabrasion + plus deep cuts into the scalp both are made using a laser. Follica also apply lithium gluconate to supply lithium ions to the regenerating tissue this helps push the cells towards becoming hair follicules rather than plain skin.


 How sure are we that that is all their procedure would use? What about FGF-9 and PGD2 inhibitors?

----------


## brunobald

Not sure at all, but I would like to put together a mindmap in photoshop to combine all the ideas we have. Try and work out the best routine possible with lots of variations. There are lots of great ideas and info spread across multiple forums and bringing all this together and holding it in one updated .pdf that everyone can acess, I think might be useful?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

thanks bro


> No, 192 gives better penetration and deeper wounding for sure. Think of the person sleeping on a bed of needles.

----------


## LevonHelms

> The most recent follica patents do not suggest dermabrasion alone will give best results. In fact they suggest a combo of dermabrasion + plus deep cuts into the scalp both are made using a laser. Follica also apply lithium gluconate to supply lithium ions to the regenerating tissue this helps push the cells towards becoming hair follicules rather than plain skin.


 Right, I know. Guess I worded that badly.  I only meant that dermarolling all by itself has been shown to be beneficial.  Adding growth factors and stimulants would of course compound the effect.

----------


## brunobald

> Right, I know. Guess I worded that badly.  I only meant that dermarolling all by itself has been shown to be beneficial.  Adding growth factors and stimulants would of course compound the effect.


 What are you planning on trying out first? Lithium gluconate? I also think a wider self supporting wound might work better too. The patent talks of a column of flesh being removed.

----------


## DesperateOne

> What are you planning on trying out first? Lithium gluconate? I also think a wider self supporting wound might work better too. The patent talks of a column of flesh being removed.


 Yes, people have contacted the authors and they said that there was blood throughout the sessions. The only thing is that they didn't put it on the paper as they should have. Anyways, if you want results, I still think that you should do a super aggressive session and maybe wait more than a week before you do the next  one, IMO. I also heard that lithium is dangerous, would have to research it though.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional...ds=dermaroller

guys i order this then?

its 1.5mm 192 needles it doesnt say anything about needls diameter . the material is ok ?

thanks

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys an info i read from a guys post on ***.. 
when skin gets pinkish is when stem cells are released...

do we know that?

----------


## clandestine

So enough guys talking over at *** about applying semen to their scalps; apparently the science is sound.

Whose game  :EEK!:

----------


## gladiator

After reading this forum I have some input . 
I think that wounding once per week as the study states is sufficient . apply tea tree cream directly after which is an amazing anti inflamm . Apply PSI ; post wounding (1.5 mm) then minox 2 times per day every other day . 
Sounds like it would give an incredible stimulation and the tea tree cream is brilliant on its own as I use on skin wounds as an antibacterial and anti inflammatory and I'd dissipates the red ness over night . Psi is sold on the net and is a very potent stimulator . Also a tea tree shampoo would keep the scalp clean avoid germ . 
Thoughts ?

----------


## brunobald

Lol, this thread has the makings of a good southpark episode.

----------


## DesperateOne

> After reading this forum I have some input . 
> I think that wounding once per week as the study states is sufficient . apply tea tree cream directly after which is an amazing anti inflamm . Apply PSI ; post wounding (1.5 mm) then minox 2 times per day every other day . 
> Sounds like it would give an incredible stimulation and the tea tree cream is brilliant on its own as I use on skin wounds as an antibacterial and anti inflammatory and I'd dissipates the red ness over night . Psi is sold on the net and is a very potent stimulator . Also a tea tree shampoo would keep the scalp clean avoid germ . 
> Thoughts ?


 Listen tea tree SALESMAN, we want inflammation to occur in order for the magic to happen, applying antiflamatory substances would be counter productive.

----------


## DesperateOne

> So enough guys talking over at *** about applying semen to their scalps; apparently the science is sound.
> 
> Whose game


 I have been doing it for the past five days, the problem seems to be that it does t absorb as well as I would like it to. I will be getting my 2.5mm derma in about a week or two, they got delayed a bit. Will see if that's deep enough to reach the follicle. Also we need to apply when we see the skin turning pink, that is the magic signal that shows the skin is ready for minox or other topicals.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

?


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional...ds=dermaroller
> 
> guys i order this then?
> 
> its 1.5mm 192 needles it doesnt say anything about needls diameter . the material is ok ?
> 
> thanks

----------


## LevonHelms

> ?


 Yep, that'll work.

----------


## LevonHelms

> What are you planning on trying out first? Lithium gluconate? I also think a wider self supporting wound might work better too. The patent talks of a column of flesh being removed.


 Right now I'm just sticking with the minoxidil.  I know what I'm not rubbing on my head. Semen. lols

----------


## brunobald

These derma pens might be less painfull to use even at 2.5mm? Lots of cheap chinese copys for offer on ebay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29bWwHzl1ec

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

thanks brother

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

http://www.hair losstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/69374-New-Dermaroller-Study-Thoughts-comments/page64

----------


## the_dude78

> http://www.hair losstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/69374-New-Dermaroller-Study-Thoughts-comments/page64


 But no before pictures?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

no i dont see any

----------


## MackJames

I'm on week five of derma rolling and minoxidil.  I haven't noticed any new growth but my hair seems to be  growing faster and hair texture feels slightly thicker.  I've been on min for over a year and quit fin about seven month ago. 

I didn't take any pics because when I started my hair was buzzed down to a 1 and now it's at 2.  I'm considering experiment with other non-hormonal topicals.  I've also been trying to get more sun on my scalp to prime my scalp skin further.

----------


## burtandernie

You know MPB treatments are in trouble when dermarolling is the top cutting edge/future treatment for many weeks in a row. Maybe that speaks to the poor future outlook.

----------


## DesperateOne

> You know MPB treatments are in trouble when dermarolling is the top cutting edge/future treatment for many weeks in a row. Maybe that speaks to the poor future outlook.


 
Or that this will be it, with a little tweaking

----------


## Pentarou

> You know MPB treatments are in trouble when dermarolling is the top cutting edge/future treatment for many weeks in a row. Maybe that speaks to the poor future outlook.


 Well, the dermarolling study was based around and cites theoretical work by Dr Cotsarelis, and most if not all of the in-pipeline future treatments use work by Corsarelis as some kind of basis, so...

----------


## baldymcgee

> You know MPB treatments are in trouble when dermarolling is the top cutting edge/future treatment for many weeks in a row. Maybe that speaks to the poor future outlook.


 I really didn't think there was anything to this dermarolling/wounding thing.

But, I have to say, just yesterday I was at the beach and I noticed a guy with significant (but well-healed) scars across a section of his back.

Surrounding these scars and all along them: hairs. The rest of his back was quite hairless but there was an easily visible "hair line" across his scars.

So either dermarolling isn't the right kind of wounding, or people are doing it wrong (too deep or too shallow), or some other factor is at play. But wounding+new hair growth is absolutely real.

----------


## doke

> I really didn't think there was anything to this dermarolling/wounding thing.
> 
> But, I have to say, just yesterday I was at the beach and I noticed a guy with significant (but well-healed) scars across a section of his back.
> 
> Surrounding these scars and all along them: hairs. The rest of his back was quite hairless but there was an easily visible "hair line" across his scars.
> 
> So either dermarolling isn't the right kind of wounding, or people are doing it wrong (too deep or too shallow), or some other factor is at play. But wounding+new hair growth is absolutely real.


 did he have hairy right hand as well.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I really didn't think there was anything to this dermarolling/wounding thing.
> 
> But, I have to say, just yesterday I was at the beach and I noticed a guy with significant (but well-healed) scars across a section of his back.
> 
> Surrounding these scars and all along them: hairs. The rest of his back was quite hairless but there was an easily visible "hair line" across his scars.
> 
> So either dermarolling isn't the right kind of wounding, or people are doing it wrong (too deep or too shallow), or some other factor is at play. But wounding+new hair growth is absolutely real.


 There is no doubt it's real, the science is there. It seems that most cases I have seen of real hair growth was on a significant wound. That obviously suggest that we're not doing enough damage, I already ordered a 2.5mm but I have to get some numbing cream or else I won't be able to tolerate it. Will do some major wounding and maybe wait like 10 days.

----------


## clandestine

> There is no doubt it's real, the science is there. It seems that most cases I have seen of real hair growth was on a significant wound. That obviously suggest that we're not doing enough damage, I already ordered a 2.5mm but I have to get some numbing cream or else I won't be able to tolerate it. Will do some major wounding and maybe wait like 10 days.


 Be sure to keep a photo log brah.

----------


## JDW

> I really didn't think there was anything to this dermarolling/wounding thing.
> 
> But, I have to say, just yesterday I was at the beach and I noticed a guy with significant (but well-healed) scars across a section of his back.
> 
> Surrounding these scars and all along them: hairs. The rest of his back was quite hairless but there was an easily visible "hair line" across his scars.
> 
> So either dermarolling isn't the right kind of wounding, or people are doing it wrong (too deep or too shallow), or some other factor is at play. But wounding+new hair growth is absolutely real.


 Interesting stuff. What I would add to this is that many people are only on week 3, 4 or 5 of the trial which in the original version lasted for 12 weeks with the results collated at that point.

----------


## Thinning87

> There is no doubt it's real, the science is there. It seems that most cases I have seen of real hair growth was on a significant wound.* That obviously suggest that we're not doing enough damage,*  already ordered a 2.5mm but I have to get some numbing cream or else I won't be able to tolerate it. Will do some major wounding and maybe wait like 10 days.


 Not necessarily. Could just be that the damage is sufficient but the wound needs to stay open longer for the growth factors to intervene. The intensity of wounding isn't the only variable in the equation. And I understand that you guys are thinking the deeper the wound, the longer it will stay open, but that doesn't necessarily improve odds of new hairs imo

----------


## Chromeo

It'll be interesting to see how many report positive results when we reach the 12 week mark. I think it's great that a lot of us are pushing ahead and trying different approaches already, but I really want to be sure that the findings in the study can be replicated, first and foremost.

----------


## baldymcgee

> did he have hairy right hand as well.


 I don't understand the reference.

----------


## Borealis

I'm just about to undertake my 8th session. No significant results as of yet.

----------


## fred970

1 month in for me. No visible difference yet either.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

dont get us down


> 1 month in for me. No visible difference yet either.

----------


## DesperateOne

> 1 month in for me. No visible difference yet either.


 Fred, you need to lay off the forums, I don't know why but your negativity is always here. Even among us, you're like the most depressing and loose case on the MPB forums. 

I have to say that diffuse thinners will see better results, if you're slick on the temples, there is little chance of you getting anything. just my opinion.

----------


## fred970

You know I'm a pure diffuse thinner right? I still have like 10 hairs on my temples, if I see 20 in December, I'll let you guys know.

I'm not negative, just sceptical.

----------


## walrus

Scepticism can be a good thing. Lets not get carried away until we see some more results.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys i feel s hit. we are a bunch o young guys talking on a baldness forum

lol
why don we have a cure? jesus

----------


## hellouser

> guys i feel s hit. we are a bunch o young guys talking on a baldness forum
> 
> lol
> why don we have a cure? jesus


 The higher powers that be don't want us to live a satisfying life.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i am going to dermaroll hard hellouser tomorow i order my dermaroll and have 2.5 cans of minox foam. i am also going to take pics and buzz head. its the last tower for me.. i  hope the study is true


> The higher powers that be don't want us to live a satisfying life.

----------


## hellouser

> Fred, you need to lay off the forums, I don't know why but your negativity is always here. Even among us, you're like the most depressing and loose case on the MPB forums. 
> 
> I have to say that diffuse thinners will see better results, if you're slick on the temples, there is little chance of you getting anything. just my opinion.


 I don't see any negativity from the comment you quoted. I'm over a month in as well and I don't see a visible difference either.

----------


## Stocione

> I don't see any negativity from the comment you quoted. I'm over a month in as well and I don't see a visible difference either.


 Aren't you still shedding though? I would be surprised if you will see much success if you haven't stabilized your hair loss a bit first.

----------


## Stocione

> I'm just about to undertake my 8th session. No significant results as of yet.


 How hard are you rolling and what length are you using? Seeing significant amounts of blood?

----------


## hellouser

I just dermarolled yesterday seeing how last week I wasn't very vigorous with my session. I know I pressed harder this time, but I get this weird feeling that each time I dermaroll, I bleed more easily than the following week. It's been about 4-5 sessions of dermarolling and I've yet to see any positive results from using Minox and CB with it. I'm going to be ordering RU next week as well and get back on it.

Also, I've gone against waiting a full 24 hours before applying Minoxidil and applied it around 9 hours later. I don't believe waiting 24 hours is in line with the healing time simply because the microneedling wounds heal extremely quickly, probably within the 24 hour period.

Here's how I sliced up my scalp.

----------


## Thinning87

> Aren't you still shedding though? I would be surprised if you will see much success if you haven't stabilized your hair loss a bit first.


 Good point

----------


## hellouser

> Aren't you still shedding though? I would be surprised if you will see much success if you haven't stabilized your hair loss a bit first.


 Shedding has decreased significantly, but I'm still shedding, yes. Probably around 50 or so hairs a day.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

hellouser two points

a)do you heal completely untill some time before the next roll?aint there the time gap that the gfs are released no?

b)are we sure the cb properties dont influence the wounding theory in a way we dont want?


advice. buzz it until you regrow it and for better rolls and pics to compare

----------


## Stocione

> Shedding has decreased significantly, but I'm still shedding, yes. Probably around 50 or so hairs a day.


 Good to hear but yeah, I think you need to get on RU before you'll see much. CB just doesn't work at the doses we are using... Also four to five weeks is not enough to notice anything besides increased rate of hair growth according to the study. The first appearance of new hairs was six weeks and that was likely only in a handful of the best responders.

----------


## burtandernie

Wounding might have a place in the future for MPB, buts its far from a sure bet and like everything else is going to take lots of time and research to figure out to best use it. People doing it on there own as usual is never representative of the kind of results it can actually get when done properly.

----------


## greatjob!

> I just dermarolled yesterday seeing how last week I wasn't very vigorous with my session. I know I pressed harder this time, but I get this weird feeling that each time I dermaroll, I bleed more easily than the following week. It's been about 4-5 sessions of dermarolling and I've yet to see any positive results from using Minox and CB with it. I'm going to be ordering RU next week as well and get back on it.
> 
> Also, I've gone against waiting a full 24 hours before applying Minoxidil and applied it around 9 hours later. I don't believe waiting 24 hours is in line with the healing time simply because the microneedling wounds heal extremely quickly, probably within the 24 hour period.
> 
> Here's how I sliced up my scalp.


 Holy shit hellouser you're not f**king around!! I guess I need to step my game up

----------


## greatjob!

Also I might be imagining things but I feel like something is happening for me. It's too early for any real hair to be visible but I think my scalp is becoming darker which would indicate that smaller dark hairs may be starting to pop up. Maybe I'll pick up a macro lens to see if anything is going on.

----------


## clandestine

> I just dermarolled yesterday seeing how last week I wasn't very vigorous with my session. I know I pressed harder this time, but I get this weird feeling that each time I dermaroll, I bleed more easily than the following week. It's been about 4-5 sessions of dermarolling and I've yet to see any positive results from using Minox and CB with it. I'm going to be ordering RU next week as well and get back on it.
> 
> Also, I've gone against waiting a full 24 hours before applying Minoxidil and applied it around 9 hours later. I don't believe waiting 24 hours is in line with the healing time simply because the microneedling wounds heal extremely quickly, probably within the 24 hour period.
> 
> Here's how I sliced up my scalp.


 *Like.

----------


## clandestine

Do you wash the blood off your scalp afterwards, or let it sit overnight?

If you've showered in the morning even, with warm water, shouldn't there be no scabbing or 'thin brown marks' as you say?

----------


## DesperateOne

> Also I might be imagining things but I feel like something is happening for me. It's too early for any real hair to be visible but I think my scalp is becoming darker which would indicate that smaller dark hairs may be starting to pop up. Maybe I'll pick up a macro lens to see if anything is going on.


 Well take some pics or no one will believe shit. Haha, you also believe that we need to step our game up with the rolling. What is your Norwood and regimine

----------


## greatjob!

> Well take some pics or no one will believe shit. Haha, you also believe that we need to step our game up with the rolling. What is your Norwood and regimine


 I do take pics, but nothing really shows up at this point. My norwood is a little difficult to tell, since I've had a hair transplant, but I am a very diffused nw 6 if it wasn't for the transplanted hair in the front half of my head.

As for regimen I'm following the study exactly with the addition of fin that I've been on for a few years.

----------


## Conpecia

just finished my 5th session, really went to town over the whole mpb area. bleeding around temples.

should we shower or clean our scalps? read on *** some guys just sleep and wash the blood off the next morning. any logic to that?

----------


## greatjob!

> just finished my 5th session, really went to town over the whole mpb area. bleeding around temples.
> 
> should we shower or clean our scalps? read on *** some guys just sleep and wash the blood off the next morning. any logic to that?


 I don't see the point in leaving the blood on, there isn't anything leaving that blood on your scalp will accomplish aside from making you look worse. The magic is happening down at the follicles, not on the surface of your scalp. I usually roll at night right before I take a shower and wash my head in the shower.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

Hellouser is a hairloss RockStar!  :Cool:

----------


## DesperateOne

> I don't see the point in leaving the blood on, there isn't anything leaving that blood on your scalp will accomplish aside from making you look worse. The magic is happening down at the follicles, not on the surface of your scalp. I usually roll at night right before I take a shower and wash my head in the shower.


 Well if you shampoo then it will get in the wounds, and may be bad. If anything, what I recommend is boiling some water and let it cool, then RU se off the blood with it. So no imperfections get in, even ones from the shower water like chlorine.

----------


## greatjob!

> Well if you shampoo then it will get in the wounds, and may be bad. If anything, what I recommend is boiling some water and let it cool, then RU se off the blood with it. So no imperfections get in, even ones from the shower water like chlorine.


 I think that may be overly cautious/over thinking things, but who knows. Generally with published studies they include everything in the protocol of importance and leave out the things considered to be of little to no consequence. 

Also it's pretty standard procedure to wash wounds after they occur be it from injury or surgery, so I would assume if it was important to not wash the hair after rolling it would certainly be included in the study. And not washing after you roll will surely increase the chance of infection as well.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I think that may be overly cautious/over thinking things, but who knows. Generally with published studies they include everything in the protocol of importance and leave out the things considered to be of little to no consequence. 
> 
> Also it's pretty standard procedure to wash wounds after they occur be it from injury or surgery, so I would assume if it was important to not wash the hair after rolling it would certainly be included in the study. And not washing after you roll will surely increase the chance of infection as well.


 You would think that but... no. Remember, this was a simple pilot, not a really well controlled experiment. People have contacted them and it seems they left out a few things and also sugar coated the story a bit. Like they admitted that participants typically did bleed and not mildly. Well yes, infection is a concern with blood drying out. I don't think blood contributes in anyway, or is there some science with it and wounding? 

At any rate, I am so freaking tired of this curse. My cousin's dad is a nw7 and it should of been him that got this curse, not me ****.

----------


## greatjob!

> At any rate, I am so freaking tired of this curse. My cousin's dad is a nw7 and it should of been him that got this curse, not me ****.


 Tell me about it! I have like 30+ cousins and they all have perfect hair. I'm the only person in my huge ass family that started loosing hair at a young age, aside from one of my uncles I have less native hair than all of them and they are at least double my age.

I remember one of the worst realizations I ever made was in high school when I realized that every one of 40+ year old male teachers had more hair than I did.

----------


## Stocione

> You would think that but... no. Remember, this was a simple pilot, not a really well controlled experiment. People have contacted them and it seems they left out a few things and also sugar coated the story a bit. Like they admitted that participants typically did bleed and not mildly.


 Please, Please, Please stop spreading misinformation. I'm the person who contacted them and confirmed that blood was considered an immediate endpoint in treatment. This WAS a well controlled experiment. And when publishing a study in a journal you typically have a wordcount. The methods section is not meant to describe in detail the methodology so that others can reproduce it. In a small journal it typically just provides a general outline of steps. If you want to reproduce these sorts of studies, you need to contact the researchers. That's why they list email addresses to paying subscribers! Did you happen to notice that they also didn't include the details of the roller, including needle count? These are all EXTREMELY important details. But they likely didn't have room and their priorities were the results and discussion sections. 

This isn't a step by step guide to how they dermarolled... so please stop saying they sugar coated things. They considered blood as an end point to BE mild erythmia. And I never once reported that the researcher indicated that they bleed profusely. Only that there was blood.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

Stocione can you make a thread of the dets you got?
i think we need them
dont we?

----------


## clandestine

> I remember one of the worst realizations I ever made was in high school when I realized that every one of 40+ year old male teachers had more hair than I did.


 Right in the feels.

----------


## MackJames

I've been rolling until the scalp begins to become red.  I have a little blood but nowhere near as much blood as hellouser. Should I be rolling more vigorously?

----------


## fred970

OK I shaved my head today and I must admit I (think I) noticed a lot of new vellus hairs.

----------


## Stocione

> I've been rolling until the scalp begins to become red.  I have a little blood but nowhere near as much blood as hellouser. Should I be rolling more vigorously?


 Honestly I don't know for sure. The researcher only said that blood was considered an end point, so once they saw blood in a part of the scalp they stopped rolling that portion of the scalp. 

Based on people's responses so far on the forums though, I'd say you should aim to get about as much blood as hellouser though.

----------


## Stocione

> Stocione can you make a thread of the dets you got?
> i think we need them
> dont we?


 We don't. The researcher was a smart guy, but at this point he was guessing just as much as the rest of us. He also wasn't the lead author, so he wasn't the most knowledgeable of the bunch (just the only one that responded to me!). Most people are following the same protocol they used with the exception that we are all using way more needles in our rollers than they did, if I remember his email correctly. .

----------


## hellouser

Here's an interesting question:

If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?

In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.

Thoughts??

----------


## Hicks

> Here's an interesting question:
> 
> If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?
> 
> In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.
> 
> Thoughts??


 After wounding I apply Coconut oil to reduce scar tissue from forming (yes I know the wound is small).  I apply minox 24 hours later (I do not want that stuff in my blood (I see no reason why I can't do it the next morning beside the fact my head burns in the shower), and the next moring I shower using 2% Nizoral then more coconut oil).  Every body is going to react differently to everything.  listen to your body and go from there. 

I thought the idea of the dermaroller was to signal your bodies own growth factors to the area that is wounded then let it start the healing process during which we need to induce as much assists to growth factor as possible in the window of time. To much wounding might lead to the wrong growth factor/out come (counter productive)?????

Just my thoughts

----------


## Stocione

> After wounding I apply Coconut oil to reduce scar tissue from forming (yes I know the wound is small).  I apply minox 24 hours later (I do not want that stuff in my blood (I see no reason why I can't do it the next morning beside the fact my head burns in the shower), and the next moring I shower using 2&#37; Nizoral then more coconut oil).  Every body is going to react differently to everything.  listen to your body and go from there. 
> 
> I thought the idea of the dermaroller was to signal your bodies own growth factors to the area that is wounded then let it start the healing process during which we need to induce as much assists to growth factor as possible in the window of time. To much wounding might lead to the wrong growth factor/out come (counter productive)?????
> 
> Just my thoughts


 Do you have any studies to support your thoughts? Look, I don't want to be a jerk here but people are offering wild speculation based on zero science. There are well documented studies on the wounding response and the specific growth factors released at certain times during the inflammatory process. 

Every body does NOT react differently. There is variance, sure. But a normal functioning inflammatory response looks relatively similar between individuals. Further, It's entirely unclear that we want to promote faster healing; that might even be counterproductive. 

I think there is good reason to think that putting minoxidil on immediately after wounding may be beneficial, in part because of the time frame it takes for minox to upregulate PGE2 and in turn for the PGE2 to induce FGF9. Still, this is all guesswork. But personally I think if that's what Cots is doing, we also should be doing it. 

People don't seem to realize that wounding is a well controlled response. You are free to do whatever you want, of course. Just please take the time to read the studies and research and you'll have a better idea of what you should be doing to see results.

Rather specifically, I would not put ANY anti-inflammatory on directly after wounding... particularly nothing like emu oil or coconut oil. You are driving full speed and then placing a speed block in the way.

----------


## Hicks

> Do you have any studies to support your thoughts? Look, I don't want to be a jerk here but people are offering wild speculation based on zero science. There are well documented studies on the wounding response and the specific growth factors released at certain times during the inflammatory process. 
> 
> Every body does NOT react differently. There is variance, sure. But a normal functioning inflammatory response looks relatively similar between individuals. Further, It's entirely unclear that we want to promote faster healing; that might even be counterproductive. 
> 
> I think there is good reason to think that putting minoxidil on immediately after wounding may be beneficial, in part because of the time frame it takes for minox to upregulate PGE2 and in turn for the PGE2 to induce FGF9. Still, this is all guesswork. But personally I think if that's what Cots is doing, we also should be doing it. 
> 
> People don't seem to realize that wounding is a well controlled response. You are free to do whatever you want, of course. Just please take the time to read the studies and research and you'll have a better idea of what you should be doing to see results.
> 
> Rather specifically, I would not put ANY anti-inflammatory on directly after wounding... particularly nothing like emu oil or coconut oil. You are driving full speed and then placing a speed block in the way.


 Your right, I'm wrong.... Sorry   :Frown:   "HUGS"

----------


## greatjob!

> Here's an interesting question:
> 
> If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?
> 
> In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.
> 
> Thoughts??


 I also heal extremely fast, a few hours after I roll it looks like nothing happened. 

The last time I rolled I applied minox right after. I know the risks of it going systemic, but I have an in-human tolerance to every drug I've ever taken so I wasn't too worried about it. I didn't have any issues so I'm going to continue to use it right after I roll unless I experience any issues. I figure if I don't have any sides it can only help with regrowth whether it be from up-regulation of growth factors or just due to minox absorption.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

ive been applying rogaine foam directly after rolling, it burns so good! and it cleans the blood specs off. my scalp is sensitive to touch for at least 24h post wounding.

----------


## LongWayHome

> ive been applying rogaine foam directly after rolling, it burns so good! and it cleans the blood specs off. my scalp is sensitive to touch for at least 24h post wounding.


 Same here. 
Actually I did wait 24 hours, but my scalp is still "warm" and the foam absorbed immediately, and it definitely never felt like it.

It was weird, but good weird.

----------


## baldee

I honestly cannot understand how you can go out the next day with all that wounding and nobody notices anything.

----------


## thinningTooSoon

I did my third roll last night, and rinsed the dried blood off this morning before going to work.

----------


## hellouser

> I honestly cannot understand how you can go out the next day with all that wounding and nobody notices anything.


 I've got enough density to hide it... somewhat.

----------


## Chromeo

> I honestly cannot understand how you can go out the next day with all that wounding and nobody notices anything.


 It's pretty much unnoticeable the next day.

----------


## Conpecia

i for one am going to follow the study. if after 12 weeks i see absolutely nothing, i'll start tweaking things, wounding more, applying minox quicker, applying growth factors, etc. but since i'm on dutasteride i'm no longer worried about losing the rest of my hair, so i can wait things out and make adjustments. 

the key to controlling mpb is finding a well-proven and scientifically backed regimen and then sticking with it religiously for a long time. hopping from treatment to treatment won't help at this stage.

----------


## Dan26

> i for one am going to follow the study. if after 12 weeks i see absolutely nothing, i'll start tweaking things, wounding more, applying minox quicker, applying growth factors, etc. but since i'm on dutasteride i'm no longer worried about losing the rest of my hair, so i can wait things out and make adjustments. 
> 
> the key to controlling mpb is finding a well-proven and scientifically backed regimen and then sticking with it religiously for a long time. hopping from treatment to treatment won't help at this stage.


 ya bro u are set as far as density and crown/anterior region with dut rolling and minox etc...if hairline slowly gets worse though thats when IMO it is a good idea to throw new treatments at it

----------


## Tracy C

I finally received my dermaroller and started my effort to reproduce the pilot study.  Dang this hurts!!!  I am not applying any pressure at all.  Just the weight of the roller, which can't be very much.

I did find that using plastic wrap to keep long hair from getting tangled in the roller does in fact work - and it works really well.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I finally received my dermaroller and started my effort to reproduce the pilot study.  Dang this hurts!!!  I am not applying any pressure at all.  Just the weight of the roller, which can't be very much.
> 
> I did find that using plastic wrap to keep long hair from getting tangled in the roller does in fact work - and it works really well.


 Yes, it hurts like hell, even though women have higher pain thresholds. Some on the other forum suggested using Japanese mint oil, they say it works wonders. I might have to order it if the 2.5mm is nothing but blinding pain.

----------


## MackJames

After rolling I go over my scalp with a alcohol wipe.  Cleans the blood off and evaporates quickly.  I'm going to start taking pics.  I'm on my fifth week today and my hair is very short. I'm not sure whether I've been rolling hard enough so I'm basically starting from scratch.

----------


## Stocione

> I finally received my dermaroller and started my effort to reproduce the pilot study.  Dang this hurts!!!  I am not applying any pressure at all.  Just the weight of the roller, which can't be very much.
> 
> I did find that using plastic wrap to keep long hair from getting tangled in the roller does in fact work - and it works really well.


 It's definitely not comfortable but the harder and more vigorously you roll the more adrenaline you get pumping. It hurts significantly less after a few good hard rolls. 

On a side note, I missed the explanation for why you are using plastic wrap. But if you are rolling with as much vigor as those reporting results (and what the study researcher I spoke to suggested) then I would expect you to tear through the plastic wrap. I would also be concerned about how sanitary the plastic wrap is (as pieces could be deposited into your scalp), unless you are soaking it in alcohol before or something. 

Anyway, just a thought.

----------


## brunobald

I was thinking these dermapens may be a way of reducing pain. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WczUjxn6x4

----------


## Stocione

> I was thinking these dermapens may be a way of reducing pain. 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WczUjxn6x4


 If I can replicate the results using a dermarolling, my next step would be to combine a dermaroller with a dermapen. Apparently they might have separate wounding effects, with the dermapen going deeper but the roller hitting a larger surface area.

----------


## brunobald

The dermapen is an in out motion stabbing while the roller is pivoting out and in of the skin. The roller inflicts more damage especially on the surface but the pen can get deeper without causing as much truma and potentially less pain. The ladies having dermapen work on their faces appear to be in way less pain than the roller in fact some say it is quite soothing?

First we need to replicate results and then start honing the technique from there but it looks promising especially for guys who just want to wound small areas.

Follica are years ahead of us on this and they are talking of much larger wounds?

----------


## hellouser

Hmm... I cut my hands trying to pry open an external hard drive (enclosure's controller died). I'm now left with some small scabs. I wonder if I should have tried applying minoxidil and seeing if I'd get hair growth.

----------


## horte

This might seem weird but every time I roll I sneeze a lot... Just wondering does this happen to anyone else?

----------


## hellouser

> This might seem weird but every time I roll I sneeze a lot... Just wondering does this happen to anyone else?


 I have urges, yes.

----------


## walrus

> This might seem weird but every time I roll I sneeze a lot... Just wondering does this happen to anyone else?


 same here

----------


## thinningTooSoon

Is anyone using growth factors in combination with this trial? I am thinking of getting some...

----------


## fred970

I get a runny nose and sometimes I sneeze too.

----------


## Hal0

I drop some tears and i sneeze too..

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

I got my dermaroller today and I tried rolling it on my head, it stung like hell. Especially in the patches affected by Alopecia Areata, they stung the most and they turned a pink color. I did it with little to no pressure and it hurt like hell, but no blood though. I'm looking in to numbing creams, any suggestions?

----------


## Chromeo

> I drop some tears and i sneeze too..


 Better to shed a tear than shed more hair.

----------


## cp9

It's weird as hell, I used to sneeze almost every time when I roll on my hairline..

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

On closer look with a picture with flash, I do see bloody little dots on my scalp.

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

i raped my scalp so hard tonight i could feel my heartbeat in it lol. was weird sensation. literally when my heartbeat my scalp was pulsing at the same time. 

oh and...you shouldn't need a picture with flash to see bloody dots...unless you have a ton of density

----------


## pat

what size dermaroller are you guys using? I feel like using the 0.5mm but I'm worried it wouldn't be enough for me. I'd probably be uncomfortable with the 1-1.5mm dermarollers

----------


## DesperateOne

> i raped my scalp so hard tonight i could feel my heartbeat in it lol. was weird sensation. literally when my heartbeat my scalp was pulsing at the same time. 
> 
> oh and...you shouldn't need a picture with flash to see bloody dots...unless you have a ton of density


 That's what I plan to do on e my 2.5mm derma arrives. 1.5mm is simply not enough, the only problem as always is the pain. Girls will have it easier since they can tolerate more pain.

----------


## clandestine

> what size dermaroller are you guys using? I feel like using the 0.5mm but I'm worried it wouldn't be enough for me. I'd probably be uncomfortable with the 1-1.5mm dermarollers


 Honesty I started with 1.0mm for my first session last week, but am going straight to 1.5mm for this week. Just try it.

----------


## goingquick

Has anyone seen results with this so far, or is this another idea to toss in the scrap heap?




> Girls will have it easier since they can tolerate more pain.


 That's a myth. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

----------


## Borealis

I've probably been doing it one of the longest, only thing I've noticed is that a few (and I mean a few) of the vellus hairs I had previously, have turned terminal. That could have happened due to minox anyway.

Been shedding a shit load though, so many hairs come out in the shower.

----------


## chimera

Up to this point, I think it's quite obvious that the study we're following is a fat load of bullshit. No, I am not saying the dermaroller does not work, that is something I still don't know. Maybe if you keep rolling for six months or one year you may see something, what I am saying is that the study is full of lies. Results are not just going to pop out of nowhere at the 12 weeks mark, we should be able to see something by now, and we're certainly not. In this forum or the others, all we have are just a couple of pics which show nothing at all (and in most cases, we don't even have before pictures). And yeah, I know that when it comes to hair, three months really mean nothing, but the thing is, the study we're following said three months.

Anyway, maybe this will help, but the results won't be like the study suggested, that's for sure. But who knows?, maybe it could help as a maintenance treatment, maybe not, we'll see.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

chimera you wrong pal

----------


## Stocione

> Up to this point, I think it's quite obvious that the study we're following is a fat load of bullshit. No, I am not saying the dermaroller does not work, that is something I still don't know. Maybe if you keep rolling for six months or one year you may see something, what I am saying is that the study is full of lies. Results are not just going to pop out of nowhere at the 12 weeks mark, we should be able to see something by now, and we're certainly not. In this forum or the others, all we have are just a couple of pics which show nothing at all (and in most cases, we don't even have before pictures). And yeah, I know that when it comes to hair, three months really mean nothing, but the thing is, the study we're following said three months.
> 
> Anyway, maybe this will help, but the results won't be like the study suggested, that's for sure. But who knows?, maybe it could help as a maintenance treatment, maybe not, we'll see.


 This is a deeply misinformed post. Some people just don't know how to read studies...

----------


## Conpecia

i would advise reserving judgment, good or bad, on this treatment until January of next year. it's a simple treatment. do it once a week and don't think about it. if by 2014 we're not getting  any results we can either make adjustments or abandon ship. until then just do it and don't dwell on it. if you happen to get results take pics and post them.

----------


## chimera

> This is a deeply misinformed post. Some people just don't know how to read studies...


 How am I wrong?, the study showed amazing results at three months, results that we are obviously not going to get. What else is there to it?. 

Anyway, I know I just can't ignore all the people saying they are seeing vellus hair everywhere, I do think this has the potential to work agains hair loss (but I don't know yet to which extent), but I am convinced that the results from the study are false.

----------


## Stocione

> How am I wrong?, the study showed amazing results at three months, results that we are obviously not going to get. What else is there to it?. 
> 
> Now, I do think this has the potential to work agains hair loss, I just think the results from the study are false.


 Results weren't noted until six weeks, and that's only on a shaved head. There are now over ten people reporting positive results across the public and private hair loss forums. Most people won't notice anything because they do not have a shaved head. 

I'm not going to go into it further because I don't think you've actually read the study because if you had, you'd understand why people aren't reporting anything yet. You'd also know about the impact on the rate of hair growth observed.

----------


## Borealis

I really don't mean to worry anyone, I'm simply asking out of curiosity. Are we sure that there is no risk of losing more hair as a result of dermarolling?

----------


## chimera

> I'm not going to go into it further because I don't think you've actually read the study because if you had, you'd understand why people aren't reporting anything yet. You'd also know about the impact on the rate of hair growth observed.


 In fact, I was the first one in this forum to read the whole study. It was I the one who oppened the original thread (theres a link in the fist post of this thread to the thread I oppened before) like a week after it was originally published on *** where nobody gave a damn.

Fine then. I do think this work, I just think that the study is completely fake (well, at least their results are bollocks). But it's OK. I will shut my mouth for a couple of weeks more. We'll see at the three months mark what happen.

----------


## Stocione

> Fine then. I do think this work, I just think that the study is completely fake (well, at least their results are bollocks). But it's OK. I will shut my mouth for a couple of weeks more. We'll see at the three months mark what happen.


 So you think their results are fake based on zero evidence? And there's a difference between reading the results section and reading a study. I sincerely doubt you really read and understood the study if you expected results that could be captured in a photograph after four or five weeks of rolling (which is where most people are). They specifically noted that new follicles were only noted at six weeks and we can assume that this was only in the best responders. 

My point is this, why post negative thoughts when you legitimately don't have a leg to stand on? I'd understand if we were at the three month mark or even at the two month mark with no one reporting anything. Instead, those individuals with a shaved head and at the six week mark ARE reporting positive things. Most of the rest of us either aren't that far into treatment or don't have shaved heads. 

So keep chill and wait it out. Also, I get the feeling that you expect everyone to have a +3 response to this treatment protocol. If so, you are certainly going to be disappointed as the results showed a quite significant standard deviation. Most people here will likely only see a +1 or +2 response.

----------


## Hicks

> In fact, I was the first one in this forum to read the whole study. It was I the one who oppened the original thread (theres a link in the fist post of this thread to the thread I oppened before) like a week after it was originally published on *** where nobody gave a damn.
> 
> Fine then. I do think this work, I just think that the study is completely fake (well, at least their results are bollocks). But it's OK. I will shut my mouth for a couple of weeks more. We'll see at the three months mark what happen.


 Just put Stocione on your ignore list like I did. That person doesn't have anything constructive to say. Read his/her past post.  

Yes it is obvious that parts of the study would be missing, No company would give out proprietary information. 

My advice is to hammer on and lurk.  I don't give 2 sh**ts about anyone on this board.  I am here for one reason.  If I can help (I will when I can) great if not sorry.

----------


## Stocione

> Just put Stocione on your ignore list like I did. That person doesn't have anything constructive to say. Read his/her past post.  
> 
> Yes it is obvious that parts of the study would be missing, No company would give out proprietary information. 
> 
> My advice is to hammer on and lurk.  I don't give 2 sh**ts about anyone on this board.  I am here for one reason.  If I can help (I will when I can) great if not sorry.


 Stop giving out misinformation. This isn't a company. It's a research study sponsored by a hospital in India. 

But sure, if pointing out when people are blatantly wrong isn't constructive, go ahead and ignore me. Or in your case, I pointed out that your thoughts lacked any scientific evidence. I wasn't trying to be rude or curt but I don't want to see people fail to follow the study or see results because they listen to advice that lacks scientific evidence. Anyway, good luck to you and keep hammering away. I sincerely hope that you and everyone else here sees results!

----------


## Dan26

Norwoods are so impatient....the higher nw the worse they are!

----------


## greatjob!

> Yes it is obvious that parts of the study would be missing, No company would give out proprietary information.


 Can you please explain to me what company put out this study, what proprietary information they could have left out, and how they could possibly stand to make any money off of this research?

----------


## bigentries

I don't think there is some evil conspiracy here

If the study turns out to be wrong (and all is pointing towards it) I would just blame bias. They already said they offer the treatment at their clinic, but I don't think they have any plans to commercialize it further

Edit: And where are the pictures? People are claiming others are seeing results, but I've only seen one guy posting pics. Where is the photographic evidence? People were supposed to take the experimentation seriously this time

----------


## hellouser

> Can you please explain to me what company put out this study, what proprietary information they could have left out, and how they could possibly stand to make any money off of this research?


 A lot of you guys need to read thoroughly:




> Stop giving out misinformation. This isn't a company. It's a research study sponsored by a hospital in India.

----------


## Stocione

> I don't think there is some evil conspiracy here
> 
> If the study turns out to be wrong (and all is pointing towards it) I would just blame bias. They already said they offer the treatment at their clinic, but I don't think they have any plans to commercialize it further
> 
> Edit: And where are the pictures? People are claiming others are seeing results, but I've only seen one guy posting pics. Where is the photographic evidence? People were supposed to take the experimentation seriously this time


 This isn't the only forum on the web and on this topic, it's the furthest behind - despite the many, many posts. I'm not going to link to other hair loss forums here so just take a look for yourself.

----------


## clandestine

Stoicone;

Thanks for being the voice of reason in this thread lately.

----------


## bigentries

> This isn't the only forum on the web and on this topic, it's the furthest behind - despite the many, many posts. I'm not going to link to other hair loss forums here so just take a look for yourself.


 I've been at the other big 3 forums that start with "hair" and don't see any progress pics in their dermarolling threads, *** is basically this same topic, even the same usernames

Are the private forums seeing anything worth to report?

----------


## hellouser

> Are the private forums seeing anything worth to report?


 Oddly enough, theres very little movement with dermarolling in the private forums.

----------


## greatjob!

> A lot of you guys need to read thoroughly:


 Is that directed at me? Because I wasn't responding to his comment, I agreed with it. I was responding to this comment:




> Yes it is obvious that parts of the study would be missing, No company would give out proprietary information.


 That's why I quoted it.

----------


## Pentarou

> My point is this, why post negative thoughts when you legitimately don't have a leg to stand on? I'd understand if we were at the three month mark or even at the two month mark with no one reporting anything. Instead, those individuals with a shaved head and at the six week mark ARE reporting positive things. Most of the rest of us either aren't that far into treatment or don't have shaved heads.


 Most of scepticism is because, essentially, there have been many experimental trials carried out by forum users over the years with no success. Trials that may have been theoretically 'correct' but turned out to not work in practice, for whichever number of countless possible reasons. Also, in the eyes of many, this trial has a 'too good to be true' element about it, as in the amount of regrowth from a common off-the-shelf treatment combined with a cheap off-the-shelf tool. It's not a surprise that many here are quite wary.




> So keep chill and wait it out. Also, I get the feeling that you expect everyone to have a +3 response to this treatment protocol. If so, you are certainly going to be disappointed as the results showed a quite significant standard deviation. Most people here will likely only see a +1 or +2 response.


 I wonder if users of 5-ARIs will be most likely to be in the better response group, thinking aloud for a second.

----------


## Koga

Stay patient guys! I'm at 8 weeks and I definitely see results. But the only reason I can see it is because I shave my head down with a zero guard and have a distinct receding hairline, and even then it's not really obvious on camera. I had velous hairs at the end of week one and now some terminal hairs are definitely growing in. I'm sure there are others getting results too. I'll post pics when it's more obvious. Definitely don't expect pics with a full head of hair though.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Stay patient guys! I'm at 8 weeks and I definitely see results. But the only reason I can see it is because I shave my head down with a zero guard and have a distinct receding hairline, and even then it's not really obvious on camera. I had velous hairs at the end of week one and now some terminal hairs are definitely growing in. I'm sure there are others getting results too. I'll post pics when it's more obvious. Definitely don't expect pics with a full head of hair though.


 Are you also adding some growth factors of any kind?

----------


## clandestine

I've quit smoking for this; I'm two weeks out. So as not to affect collagen levels and such.

Not easy, but damn if hair loss isn't motivation to quit, I don't know what is.
Second roller session tomorrow, using the 1.5mm.

----------


## Thinning87

I was reading other forums and people express doubts based on the angle th dermaroller makes contact with the skin. 

Apparently oblique vs perpendicular makes a big difference, the latter being better, and they say the dermaroller doesn't guarantee that 90 degree angle

----------


## Koga

> I was reading other forums and people express doubts based on the angle th dermaroller makes contact with the skin. 
> 
> Apparently oblique vs perpendicular makes a big difference, the latter being better, and they say the dermaroller doesn't guarantee that 90 degree angle


 
What is their basis for this? 
But if you think about it, the needles from a derma roller might enter obliquely, but as the roller continues, it inevitably has to hit a 90 angle before exiting doesn't it?

----------


## Thinning87

> What is their basis for this? 
> But if you think about it, the needles from a derma roller might enter obliquely, but as the roller continues, it inevitably has to hit a 90 angle before exiting doesn't it?


 I wouldn't be so sure the angle is always 90 degrees. It depends on the shape of the scalp and the precision of the dermaroller. I'll read some more and report here what I find

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> In fact, I was the first one in this forum to read the whole study. It was I the one who oppened the original thread (theres a link in the fist post of this thread to the thread I oppened before) like a week after it was originally published on *** where nobody gave a damn.
> 
> Fine then. I do think this work, *I just think that the study is completely fake (well, at least their results are bollocks)*. But it's OK. I will shut my mouth for a couple of weeks more. We'll see at the three months mark what happen.


 What do you think they are selling? They mention "minoxidil" and micro-needling. I haven't read the study in a while but from what I remember, they didn't mention any brands. So what exactly are they trying to sell if this is fake?

You have to be more specific if you are going to accuse the study of being fake. Why are they faking it? What do they gain from this?

Edit: Okay I just read the study again. There's a "Microneedling group" and a "Minoxidil group". There is no mention of any brand at all.

----------


## greatjob!

> I was reading other forums and people express doubts based on the angle th dermaroller makes contact with the skin. 
> 
> Apparently oblique vs perpendicular makes a big difference, the latter being better, and they say the dermaroller doesn't guarantee that 90 degree angle


 If you are concerned about that you could always just use a derma stamp

----------


## bigentries

> What do you think they are selling? They mention "minoxidil" and micro-needling. I haven't read the study in a while but from what I remember, they didn't mention any brands. So what exactly are they trying to sell if this is fake?
> 
> You have to be more specific if you are going to accuse the study of being fake. Why are they faking it? What do they gain from this?
> 
> Edit: Okay I just read the study again. There's a "Microneedling group" and a "Minoxidil group". There is no mention of any brand at all.


 Someone that contacted them said they told him they offer the procedure at their clinic, that's a big conflict of interest

----------


## Stocione

> Someone that contacted them said they told him they offer the procedure at their clinic, that's a big conflict of interest


 It's a conflict of interest to offer a procedure that they know works? Actually I just think that's how science and treatments work... you prove the concept and then you offer it as a service.

----------


## bigentries

> It's a conflict of interest to offer a procedure that they know works? Actually I just think that's how science and treatments work... you prove the concept and then you offer it as a service.


 And where are the other studies claiming that dermarolling alongside minox works? As far as I know this is the first one

We haven't even found out here if it works or not

Companies paying for biased studies just to sell something is rampant in the supplement industry, I don't see how this could be any different

----------


## Stocione

Because this is published in a reputable journal. The supplement studies are almost never accepted for publication. What's more, we've posted ad nauseum the research that supports the theory behind wounding + minoxidil. 

Additionally, not all the researchers offer this service. The one I spoke to, for example, doesn't have his own practice and is a research doc for the hospital. Only the lead researcher does, to my knowledge.

----------


## bigentries

> Because this is published in a reputable journal. The supplement studies are almost never accepted for publication.


 So what? As far as I know it wasn't peer reviewed. And publication is not enough, the FDA authorizes laser therapy for hair loss and we know it just doesn't work




> What's more, we've posted ad nauseum the research that supports the theory behind wounding + minoxidil.


 The theory behind wounding is strong, but again, we are not talking about the same stuff.
People have been using dermarolling with minox for years and until someone decided that 1.5mm was the right size then it suddenly started to be touted as the cure




> Additionally, not all the researchers offer this service. The one I spoke to, for example, doesn't have his own practice and is a research doc for the hospital. Only the lead researcher does, to my knowledge.


 Still bias exists

----------


## Stocione

> So what? As far as I know it wasn't peer reviewed. And publication is not enough, the FDA authorizes laser therapy for hair loss and we know it just doesn't work
> 
> 
> The theory behind wounding is strong, but again, we are not talking about the same stuff.
> People have been using dermarolling with minox for years and until someone decided that 1.5mm was the right size then it suddenly started to be touted as the cure
> 
> 
> Still bias exists


 .... the journal of trichology is the OFFICIAL PEER REVIEWED journal for hair research in India. 

1.5mm isn't some random size. It relates to the depth necessary for disrupting the epidermis. 

You are right, every study related to hair loss (and most medical fields) is biased. People run studies because they think it will work. That creates an inherent bias. 

Hair lasers are not approved by the FDA for the treatment of hair loss and no studies are published supporting their use in peer reviewed journals (that I've seen). There are some bullshit publications, but they aren't in real journals. Hair lasers were approved as safe for use, not as efficacious for the treatment of alopecia. Devices have a separate approval process from drugs.

----------


## MackJames

I'm on week 5.  I'm going to take a picture tonight.  The problem for me is that I shaved my hair down to the scalp a week ago because of my psoriasis.  I also had been rolling only hard enough to cause redness with minimal blood.  

This week I rolled considerable harder.   I'm going to let my hair grow out a little and keep it at the same length for the full 12 weeks. 

Should I continue to consider this week 5 or week 1?

----------


## Stocione

> I'm on week 5.  I'm going to take a picture tonight.  The problem for me is that I shaved my hair down to the scalp a week ago because of my psoriasis.  I also had been rolling only hard enough to cause redness with minimal blood.  
> 
> This week I rolled considerable harder.   I'm going to let my hair grow out a little and keep it at the same length for the full 12 weeks. 
> 
> Should I continue to consider this week 5 or week 1?


 Don't consider it week 1 or week 5. Just keep rolling every week for the next five months to judge accurately. None of us know enough about how hard you need to roll to actually see results.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Don't consider it week 1 or week 5. Just keep rolling every week for the next five months to judge accurately. None of us know enough about how hard you need to roll to actually see results.


 That's true, after finding that the initial study was not as accurate and the fact that we found follicla's patents, none of only the entire picture. So just roll to a couple of months and then report you findings.

----------


## clandestine

Can I wash my scalp with something afterwards to get the blood off?

Is the saline solution only to be used before, or can I use this? What about lukewarm water?

----------


## LevonHelms

> I've quit smoking for this; I'm two weeks out. So as not to affect collagen levels and such.
> 
> Not easy, but damn if hair loss isn't motivation to quit, I don't know what is.
> Second roller session tomorrow, using the 1.5mm.


 Congrats man, that's no small feat.  I've quit too, using an e-cig.  Still count it as a victory though. :Big Grin:

----------


## MackJames

> Can I wash my scalp with something afterwards to get the blood off?
> 
> Is the saline solution only to be used before, or can I use this? What about lukewarm water?


 I have a buzz cur and I use alcohol pads to wipe the blood away.

----------


## Stocione

> That's true, after finding that the initial study was not as accurate and the fact that we found follicla's patents, none of only the entire picture. So just roll to a couple of months and then report you findings.


 Please stop saying that the study was not accurate. It feeds the trolls here. I've explained to you multiple times that it was. I should have never shared my discussions with the researcher... but to reiterate, the materials and methods section of the study did not include many key details for replicating the study - that's why they included the email addresses for subscribers. If you were interested in replicating the study, you would be expected to contact the researchers and ask for their methodology more in depth like what I did. 

Their materials and methods section was simply to provide a snapshot of what they did. Not provide a blueprint for others to follow. This isn't some guide you buy online to curing hair loss. It's a paper published in a peer reviewed journal that likely went through many edits and had a word limit.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

one more case on *** is positive about wounding response  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## chimera

> Please stop saying that the study was not accurate. It feeds the trolls here.


 Trolls?, I don't think there's any troll in here. Yeah, some may question this treatment. But they all do it out of curiosity, perhaps over-scepticism, or maybe even just plain and honest stupidity. But I'm sure nobody does it with malice.

----------


## Stocione

> Trolls?, I don't think there's any troll in here. Yeah, some may question this treatment. But they all do it out of curiosity, perhaps over-scepticism, or maybe even just plain and honest stupidity. But I'm sure nobody does it with malice.


 Fair point. Not trolls then, because I do agree no one is doing it with malice.

On a side note, I recommend people check out PrincessRambo's posts on *** where he/she outlines some important components of the study that many seem to be misunderstanding (myself included, in the case of the macro photos). It helps to clear up some of the questions people have raised.

----------


## clandestine

> Trolls?, I don't think there's any troll in here. Yeah, some may question this treatment. But they all do it out of curiosity, perhaps over-scepticism, or maybe even just plain and honest stupidity. But I'm sure nobody does it with malice.


 It has less to do with trolls, and more to do with the spread of misinformation.

The user DesperateOne, as a prime example.

----------


## clandestine

> Can I wash my scalp with something afterwards to get the blood off?
> 
> Is the saline solution only to be used before, or can I use this? What about lukewarm water?


 So can I use saline after rolling to clean blood, or no?

----------


## bigentries

> one more case on *** is positive about wounding response


 Who? super?

So you believe a guy who's first post is to claim to have results without any evidence?

You guys are going crazy there, with all the semen talk

----------


## Stocione

> Who? super?
> 
> So you believe a guy who's first post is to claim to have results without any evidence?
> 
> You guys are going crazy there, with all the semen talk


 
I have to agree, Super has provided very little reason to buy his story and we don't even know what the actual procedure done was... given that he's not aware of needle length and didn't give too many details. Hard to see what he has to gain from coming and making up a story, but also not enough to give us much to go on. 

Do the slightest bit of research and you'll find that semen is a far superior GF/PG ****tail to the one Kane is producing. Now I'm not endorsing it and there are obviously zero studies on the hair growth effects of semen, but to call it 'crazy' is a bit quick.

----------


## bigentries

> I have to agree, Super has provided very little reason to buy his story and we don't even know what the actual procedure done was... given that he's not aware of needle length and didn't give too many details. Hard to see what he has to gain from coming and making up a story, but also not enough to give us much to go on.


 What to gain? trolling, don't tell me you've never seen people claiming miraculous results and never provide any evidence




> Do the slightest bit of research and you'll find that semen is a far superior GF/PG ****tail to the one Kane is producing. Now I'm not endorsing it and there are obviously zero studies on the hair growth effects of semen, but to call it 'crazy' is a bit quick.


 The semen stuff started as a PGE2 joke thread at hlh, it was never intended to be serious.  The original poster just pointed out a true fact (PGE2 content in semen) but it was also intended to be humorous as semen, like dog crap, is always used to exemplify how low bald men can go if there is the slight hope of regrowth

But people took it seriously, and now they are starting to experiment with semen on their freaking heads

----------


## Stocione

I haven't, although I've certainly seen fake accounts used for promoting products that are being sold on the internet. I'm not going to pass judgement one way or another on Super yet, but I wouldn't count his story for much. 

And whether or not the semen stuff started as a joke is irrelevant to its prospects as a hair growth stimulant. As PrincessRambo has pointed out, semen also contains a number of GFs implicated in hair growth and the PG that bim induces. It's also a bodily fluid and a sanitary one at that. I use saliva to get crumbs off my face. I guess I just don't see the difference. I don't really plant to try it myself though, but it's also not crazy in the least bit.

----------


## walrus

Super also mentioned being on finasteride, so he can't say conclusively it is down to dermarolling.

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

keep seeing people asking what to use to cleanse with. if you guys are looking to clean your head with something before/after derma rolling, Hibiclens is probably the ideal thing to use, imo. If you've ever had surgery, a lot of doctors will ask you to wash yourself with this before surgery, as it's cleansing effect is lasting. CVS sells this for US people

Product description :
A surgical scrub, patient pre-op skin preparation, healthcare personnel hand wash, and a skin wound and general skin cleaner. A trusted leader in antimicrobial cleaners, bonds with the skin to create a protective, germ-killing field. In addition to the fast acting antimicrobial effect, HIBICLENS' non-drying, low skin irritation potential promotes compliance with the frequent hand washing associated with today's clinical protocols. Clear liquid, pink color, and fragranced.

----------


## whatsgoingon

Been doing this for a couple weeks on my temples I do it once till my skin gets red per application. I have noticed that it absorbs a lot quicker. I used to get some in my eyes, like really often or it would just drain down the side of my face. But now it pretty much just srays where applied. Which is a huge plus.,

 I really don't feel any pain for the amount of applications I do,it might be overkill. But I did read that the holes can heal within 3 hours so I figure this is the only way. At first I needed to do it a lot to get the red tone of skin, but now I've been able to keep it to a few strokes to get it red. I guess possibly my skin is really thick and durable heh

ANYWAYS, my question is is hydroproxide good enough to clean it with? Considering that these will dull within a few months the rust factor shouldn't be an issue. Or am I completely off base?

----------


## LevonHelms

> Been doing this for a couple weeks on my temples I do it once till my skin gets red per application. I have noticed that it absorbs a lot quicker. I used to get some in my eyes, like really often or it would just drain down the side of my face. But now it pretty much just srays where applied. Which is a huge plus.,
> 
>  I really don't feel any pain for the amount of applications I do,it might be overkill. But I did read that the holes can heal within 3 hours so I figure this is the only way. At first I needed to do it a lot to get the red tone of skin, but now I've been able to keep it to a few strokes to get it red. I guess possibly my skin is really thick and durable heh
> 
> ANYWAYS, my question is is hydroproxide good enough to clean it with? Considering that these will dull within a few months the rust factor shouldn't be an issue. Or am I completely off base?


 You do know we're doing this for the wounding not absorption right? Read the study on the first page.

Hydrogen peroxide would probably be fine. Lot of people are using alcohol, the best option seems to be denture cleaning tablets.

----------


## LevonHelms

> I have to agree, Super has provided very little reason to buy his story and we don't even know what the actual procedure done was... given that he's not aware of needle length and didn't give too many details. Hard to see what he has to gain from coming and making up a story, but also not enough to give us much to go on. 
> 
> Do the slightest bit of research and you'll find that semen is a far superior GF/PG ****tail to the one Kane is producing. Now I'm not endorsing it and there are obviously zero studies on the hair growth effects of semen, but to call it 'crazy' is a bit quick.


 Did you guys see the Super dude posted pics?  Not great quality, but they improve his credibility somewhat. He does have more hair.

----------


## pat

About to get my first dermaroller. But, if I'm going to be rolling needles on my head I don't really want a cheaply made one from China. I'm positive that nearly all the ones on Amazon and eBay were just bought in wholesale from Chinese websites for no more than like 60 cents each.  

I'm thinking about getting something like this: http://www.fabove.ca/p/hair_loss_tre...le-Roller.html

Has anyone tried a more expensive one in comparison to a cheap one, and noticed a difference?

Also, just got a haircut and it's still just long enough to spike up. At that length, can I dermaroll over my scalp without damaging the hairs?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

squeegee on hair loss talk reports -getting hair thick as fak


:O

----------


## bigentries

> Did you guys see the Super dude posted pics?  Not great quality, but they improve his credibility somewhat. He does have more hair.


 His comparison pics aren't even close enough to show the improvement he is reporting, it's not like he is claiming his hairline moved considerably

----------


## walrus

Plus any improvement he does have could be from finasteride.

----------


## KeepHoping

My 5th session will be this upcoming sunday, just started to see a bunch of vellus hairs forming, not sure if this is due to dermarolling or minoxidil but I took baseline pictures and will take more pictures to report anything if there is visible improvement.

----------


## KeepHoping

Also one more thing to note, I have started to see increased shedding between the 3-4 week mark of starting minoxidil and dermarolling.  Just maybe something to mention.

----------


## whatsgoingon

I read a study, and it basically outlined that it improved absorption from the resulted wound. Which allowed the minoxidil go deeper then it would without the assistance of the 1.5mm indents.

So I guess its how you view it, you view it as wounding and I view it as increased absorption. 


Unless there is another study you are referring to? I recently read the one posted on baldingblog by I think dr. Rossman.

----------


## chimera

> I read a study, and it basically outlined that it improved absorption from the resulted wound. Which allowed the minoxidil go deeper then it would without the assistance of the 1.5mm indents.
> 
> So I guess its how you view it, you view it as wounding and I view it as increased absorption. 
> 
> 
> Unless there is another study you are referring to? I recently read the one posted on baldingblog by I think dr. Rossman.


 Not at all. The study we're following is not about absorption, but about the realease of growth factors during the healing window.

----------


## Dan26

I have velus hairs on temple, and having major shed lately. Done 4 sessions, 5th coming soon...I beleive most of us will have a very clear idea by the 7-10th rolling sessions ~~~

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

why all keep comming back for aprove of results?

i know why

beacause mpd made us desperate.

guys it works 

we have a study to back it up

period

----------


## the_dude78

> I read a study, and it basically outlined that it improved absorption from the resulted wound. Which allowed the minoxidil go deeper then it would without the assistance of the 1.5mm indents.
> 
> So I guess its how you view it, you view it as wounding and I view it as increased absorption. 
> 
> 
> Unless there is another study you are referring to? I recently read the one posted on baldingblog by I think dr. Rossman.


 Are we still going on about absorption? People, read the study! Hellouser linked to it in the very first post of this thread.  :Smile: 

*Update from me:* Tuesday will be my 7th week of rolling, and I think I see some improvements along the hairline. I had vellus hair there to begin with, but they look a little thicker and there seem to be new very, very, tiny, little new ones coming too. It doesn't show on the pictures I take, they are still too tiny. I'm a NW2 hairline wise with diffuse thinning in the front and crown and i've been on fin for about 4 or 5 years. If I see a dramatic improvement I will post pictures.

I also tried capillogain, and I really thought it did something for me, but when I looked at old pictures it turned out it was just wishful thinking and I stopped using it 3 months ago. This time,though, it really looks like something is happening. I have this little red spot in my left temple that used to be covered by hair, but for the past 8 years only vellus hair has been growing there, making the spot very easy to see - but now it is slowly becoming less visible as the hair thickens. So I'm cautiously optimistic  :Smile: 

EDIT: Maybe it's week 8...I'm not sure

----------


## Conpecia

> why all keep comming back for aprove of results?
> 
> i know why
> 
> beacause mpd made us desperate.
> 
> guys it works 
> 
> we have a study to back it up
> ...


 yikes

----------


## hellouser

I took a different approach today to my dermarolling. I've noticed *some* vellus hair in the temples, but I'm not sure if those are miniaturized hairs from progressive balding or hairs that have grown thicker during my regimen. Therefor, what I did today was:

Dermarolled harshly around the entire scalp but MOSTLY on the hairline drawing enough blood to sort of coat the skin with it. Shortly after this, I showered, getting rid of the blood and shampooing my hair/scalp, this basically exfoliates the skin. After showering I dried my hair (blow dryer) and dermarolled AGAIN. I can say this time though, a lot more blood was coming out. It only took a few short strokes to draw a lot of blood so I didn't dermaroll too much. After this I rinsed my hair with warm water and noticed some blood was dripping mixed with water. I dried my hair AGAIN with a blow dryer (couldnt use towels as there was still some blood left over)... and once dry, I applied Minoxidil around the hairline/temples/corners where most of the blood was apparent. So far? No side effects, no sign of increased heart rate, nothing. I did STING a little applying the minoxidil in the wounded areas, but thats due to the alcohol.

Let's hope this creates some TERMINAL hairs!  :Smile:

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

hellouser hairs will pop out .there is noway of not happening from the way you explain..sounds like you butcher your head....

do you think maybe minox get caught on the hair? i see you didnt buzz the hair...

sides will come ... wait

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

I've used the dermaroller every day since I got it 4 days ago, I don't use it like in the study. I do not use it to draw blood, just enough to redden the skin. So far I see new hairs in the right side of my hairline, similar quick results to what starting dut+rogaine gave me. I will not show pics anymore because i'm really bummed out from what happened last time, when dut/rogaine gave me good results then alopecia areata kicked in and ruined my progress. I just don't care anymore, and don't really care if any one believes me, sorry for the attitude but it's just how I feel about my hair loss at this point. If it works, fine, but I expect AA to ruin everything like it always has.

But yeah, micro needling your head and using minoxidil definitely does bring new hair. I'm sold on this after seeing it with my own eyes on my own hair line.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

wish this worked in conjunction with something besides minox

----------


## Dan26

PatientlyWaiting, how long did it take you to see new hairs on your hairline from minox?

And bro, stay strong. You have your whole life a head of you, do whatever you can to fight this monster for now, but realize there is a very good chance, as long as you have the money, that one day you will be able to get your hair back, and still have a large chunk of life ahead of you to enjoy it  :Smile:

----------


## Axel

> I've used the dermaroller every day since I got it 4 days ago, I don't use it like in the study. I do not use it to draw blood, just enough to redden the skin. So far I see new hairs in the right side of my hairline, similar quick results to what starting dut+rogaine gave me. I will not show pics anymore because i'm really bummed out from what happened last time, when dut/rogaine gave me good results then alopecia areata kicked in and ruined my progress. I just don't care anymore, and don't really care if any one believes me, sorry for the attitude but it's just how I feel about my hair loss at this point. If it works, fine, but I expect AA to ruin everything like it always has.
> 
> But yeah, micro needling your head and using minoxidil definitely does bring new hair. I'm sold on this after seeing it with my own eyes on my own hair line.


 C'mon guys read the science behind the procedure... There's no point in rolling everyday since fgf9 is overexpressed 5 days after the skin disruption. With a peak in between day 5 and day 11 or so (there's a nice graph showing this somewhere in one of these dermarrolling threads)..

This means ideally you should stop rolling and let the skin recover. I'd say  rolling sessions spaced with 10 to 14 days are much better... Is an interesting variation of the study that should be tested.

----------


## DesperateOne

> C'mon guys read the science behind the procedure... There's no point in rolling everyday since fgf9 is overexpressed 5 days after the skin disruption. With a peak in between day 5 and day 11 or so (there's a nice graph showing this somewhere in one of these dermarrolling threads)..
> 
> This means ideally you should stop rolling and let the skin recover. I'd say  rolling sessions spaced with 10 to 14 days are much better... Is an interesting variation of the study that should be tested.


 Thanks for the info, I needed to know the ideal time to add the minox. I have read more of the science and it does make sense to wait longer than a week since there's more to healing than just inflammation.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

I bought the dermaroller to see if it helps minoxidil absorb better, not for the skin wounding science behind it.

Dan, minoxidil+dut I started those two at the same time in March 13th of this year, I saw results in about 3 weeks, but it halted/lost ground 4 months in due to alopecia areata coming back in about 8 different spots all over the top of my head. I have yet to recover the hair I regrew from dut+rogaine but now in the 4th day I am seeing a little bit of recovery on my hairline, but I am not excited at all because I have seen this before.

Back to Axel, I am just posting in this thread because I am using microneedling for MBP. I am not following the instructions in the opening post/study. I want to purposely do it like this, I read the study already.

----------


## MackJames

> I bought the dermaroller to see if it helps minoxidil absorb better, not for the skin wounding science behind it.
> 
> Dan, minoxidil+dut I started those two at the same time in March 13th of this year, I saw results in about 3 weeks, but it halted/lost ground 4 months in due to alopecia areata coming back in about 8 different spots all over the top of my head. I have yet to recover the hair I regrew from dut+rogaine but now in the 4th day I am seeing a little bit of recovery on my hairline, but I am not excited at all because I have seen this before.
> 
> Back to Axel, I am just posting in this thread because I am using microneedling for MBP. I am not following the instructions in the opening post/study. I want to purposely do it like this, I read the study already.


 I've been using my clobetasol prop foam

----------


## StayThick

Just finished my derma-rolling session for this week and man was the pain more excruciating today than in prior past weeks. Had to take multiple breaks and bite on a towel as I rolled. Man, the stuff I do in an attempt to save my hair. I'm actually embarrassed with myself that I'm spending a Saturday night applying topicals and cutting my scalp.

I changed it up and applied Lipogaine right after. As expected, the liquid stung the moment it touched my skin. So far, no Minox sides to report with this method.

----------


## RisingFist

> wish this worked in conjunction with something besides minox


 Who says it doesn't. There are some people not using topicals or trying castor oil, sulfur I think, etc. It's hard to decide what alternative is best but there certainly are alternatives.

----------


## hellouser

> Who says it doesn't. There are some people not using topicals or trying castor oil, sulfur I think, etc. It's hard to decide what alternative is best but there certainly are alternatives.


 There's some evidence that DHT inhibits release of WNT proteins. Taking finasteride may actually promote WNT, a la Histogen and give increased growth factors to help regrow hairs.

I've been tempted to take Finasteride once a week just to see how it effects the wounding theory.

----------


## MackJames

> There's some evidence that DHT inhibits release of WNT proteins. Taking finasteride may actually promote WNT, a la Histogen and give increased growth factors to help regrow hairs.
> 
> I've been tempted to take Finasteride once a week just to see how it effects the wounding theory.


 Topical fin and rolling?  I understand their would be side effects.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

squeegee the french canuck guy on hair loss talk sees major improvements...

maybe someone registered there asks him for pics?

----------


## MackJames

> I've been using my clobetasol prop foam


 Clobetasol may also be a pdg2 antagonist.  I have AA like patiently.  I was prescribed clobetasol for psoriasis of the scalp.   I've been applying it to my scalp for about a week.

----------


## RisingFist

> There's some evidence that DHT inhibits release of WNT proteins. Taking finasteride may actually promote WNT, a la Histogen and give increased growth factors to help regrow hairs.
> 
> I've been tempted to take Finasteride once a week just to see how it effects the wounding theory.


 I wouldn't recommend it but if you wanna gamble...Why not valerian root extract in liquid form. I think I posted a study early in this thread. It increases wnt signaling (even taking the oral supplement for deep sleep helps). There are a few supplements that help with wnt signaling. I don't know them from the top of my head but should be easy to find. What we should also see is FGF supplements since it seems to be the new player in the puzzle. I know some are going hardcore and getting growth factors from kane but I would like to try a more natural approach if possible.

Also, where are Canadians ordering their rollers from? I want to buy 2. One 0.5mm for once a week rolling and one 1.5mm for once a month. If anyone has recommendations since it's expensive here. Don't want it too cheap where some needles might be stuck in your head, that would be a nightmare.

----------


## RisingFist

I should post this study in here as well http://www.omicsonline.org/2155-9554...9554-3-138.php

It is very interesting. The author has gmail so you can ask for details if you want. Please read and discuss. It's quite fascinating and completely free to incorporate.

----------


## walrus

> I should post this study in here as well http://www.omicsonline.org/2155-9554...9554-3-138.php
> 
> It is very interesting. The author has gmail so you can ask for details if you want. Please read and discuss. It's quite fascinating and completely free to incorporate.


 Not very impressed by this study. No real stats, and language such as: "The rubbing motion promotes relaxation and feels good, thus increasing the production of good chemicals." is very unscientific and unfounded.

----------


## RisingFist

> Not very impressed by this study. No real stats, and language such as: "The rubbing motion promotes relaxation and feels good, thus increasing the production of good chemicals." is very unscientific and unfounded.


 I think it was translated from korean. I understand it is not very formal but it's worth looking at.

----------


## LevonHelms

> I should post this study in here as well http://www.omicsonline.org/2155-9554...9554-3-138.php
> 
> It is very interesting. The author has gmail so you can ask for details if you want. Please read and discuss. It's quite fascinating and completely free to incorporate.


 Utter nonsense dude.  I like how he put tissue paper over the mouse next to his keyboard to illustrate a "domed head" lol. And the only before and after pic was of a guy that started with a norwood 0.

Massaging your head may help with circulation, but I doubt trying to flatten your head to relieve the scalp of grease would be very successful.

----------


## DesperateOne

Here is my second month update, I know the pics are very shitty but still. I don't know why the light is so bad. Also, note that my hair has obviously grown since then, so now it should be around 5mm-6mm. I might have to get a haircut soon and will take more relevant pictures. I also want to point out that in the last two weeks I have noticed some shedding, I don't know what it means because I had it pretty much under control with fin and minox. Hopefully it's a good sign. 

Here is the old ones, the ones with hair really short are the initial ones, the rest are a month in. 
http://s910.photobucket.com/user/BTT...one/slideshow/

Here are the new ones, it may be wishful thinking but I think I gained some hair on the crown, again hard to tell. 

Crown 8 weeks:
http://imgur.com/a/CxPCH

Top 8 weeks: 
http://imgur.com/a/rBro8

On a side note, I am have also been adding semen for the last week, yes I know, don't judge yet. Anyways, I was using it completely wrong, it wasn't absorbing, only until recently I have found how to apply it, you have to let it sit for about 20 mins until it becomes liquid form and then I just derma roll a bit with the .5mm and it absorbs much better. You obviously don't have to do this nor I am saying you should try it, so don't talk shit about it.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

@desperate

Im all for the semen theory, but isn't it counter intuitive? 

First you, well, you know, lose the essential stuff in it, just to try and put it back? Shouldn't you just NoFap?

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> wish this worked in conjunction with something besides minox


 you could try dinoprostone gel. PGE2 used to induce labour. it may seem weird, but it is probably more effective than semen lmao. you may be able to source some from an extremely forward thinking dermatologist or online somewhere.

----------


## DesperateOne

> @desperate
> 
> Im all for the semen theory, but isn't it counter intuitive? 
> 
> First you, well, you know, lose the essential stuff in it, just to try and put it back? Shouldn't you just NoFap?


 I don't see how you would think its counter intuitive. Semen has better growth factors than Kane's, and many more properties. Just to set the record straight, I take no pleasure in putting it on my scalp. I jus think that growth factors are key to growing hair during wounding, but one, I don't have the money for growth factors and two, I have natural ones that are way more potent.
Anyways, I do hope it works and I can assure you that if I see great results wih it then everyone is going to jump in. So I am doing people a favor by trug hhis out myself and if it works great, if it doesn't well, another one we can check off the list. Of course I will have to do it for at least six months.

----------


## Conpecia

just finished session number 6. nothing happening yet. still early.

----------


## greatjob!

> On a side note, I am have also been adding semen for the last week


 


> yes I know, don't judge yet.


 



> don't talk shit about it.


 I'm sorry I am judging you and I will talk shit, because you're rubbing jizz on your head...

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I don't see how you would think its counter intuitive. Semen has better growth factors than Kane's, and many more properties. Just to set the record straight, I take no pleasure in putting it on my scalp. I jus think that growth factors are key to growing hair during wounding, but one, I don't have the money for growth factors and two, I have natural ones that are way more potent.
> Anyways, I do hope it works and I can assure you that if I see great results wih it then everyone is going to jump in. So I am doing people a favor by trug hhis out myself and if it works great, if it doesn't well, another one we can check off the list. Of course I will have to do it for at least six months.


 
what I'm saying is, assuming it's your own jizz that you're using, you have these nutrients and growth factors etc INSIDE you to start with... you then extract them (for lack of a better term)... only to put it on your head and probably receive less growth factors and nutrients than you had before you fapped.


I'm a firm believer of the fapping-baldness connection. It's def hormonal in general, but fap affects it too.

----------


## Hicks

> I'm sorry I am judging you and I will talk shit, because you're rubbing jizz on your head...


 +1 and DesperateOne..... Please NO pictures!

----------


## NeedHairASAP

why is nobody using lithium gel? like in the follica patent?

Also, some dude on another forum posted that he used lithium gel and sandpaper and was getting cosmetic results.... I think it was posted here.

----------


## DesperateOne

> what I'm saying is, assuming it's your own jizz that you're using, you have these nutrients and growth factors etc INSIDE you to start with... you then extract them (for lack of a better term)... only to put it on your head and probably receive less growth factors and nutrients than you had before you fapped.
> 
> 
> I'm a firm believer of the fapping-baldness connection. It's def hormonal in general, but fap affects it too.


 Have you gone mad? How in the world do you think the body is going to use semen's growth factors in my head, when they're located somewhere else. Not to mention that semen is not intended to be used like that, so there is no way your own body will use it. I guess it was a mistake saying anything about semen. You guys come here every single day and now you feel you have dignity? That this is where you draw the line, and even worse you don't know the science behind it.

Your assumption about fapping and hairloss is just that, an assumption. Then there Is real science behind semen and you dismiss it because just the thought makes you sick. And yes, I am using my own.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

hi friends
. i will have my dermarollers in a week, i ordered two just in case...

192 needles and 1.5 mm.

i will buzz hair and take pics. i will use minox foam...i have bedantine already//

cant wait...

----------


## hellouser

> what I'm saying is, assuming it's your own jizz that you're using, you have these nutrients and growth factors etc INSIDE you to start with... you then extract them (for lack of a better term)... only to put it on your head and probably receive less growth factors and nutrients than you had before you fapped.
> 
> 
> I'm a firm believer of the fapping-baldness connection. It's def hormonal in general, but fap affects it too.


 Without looking at the properties of semen, its very VERY disingenuous to write off its potential benefits. From what I understand, Semen contains a very high concentration of PGE2, which is one of the key prostaglandins for hair growth and, as we know that Minox -> PGE2 -> FGF-9. Therefor, you're taking a shortcut by cutting out Minoxidil. Whether it absorbs/penetrates and works is another issue.

----------


## Koga

Hey desperateone, don't worry about the other people. Do your thing. Like they think if semen really turns out to work they wouldn't all be rubbing it on their heads in a second.

I personally wouldn't rub it on my head without knowing if it works. But if it works then what could be better then something that is made by your own body and is.. free? 

Anyways, I for one appreciate you testing it out for us.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

Im not saying don't do it. I'm just bringing up some potential issues in the logic. U don't know if it does get to your hair without spreading it yourself.... we don't know either way. I can admit that. Its worth I try. I was just throwing out some analysis.

Plus there is some science behind nofap.....just nobody has studied the relationship enough for their to be citable literature.

----------


## greatjob!

> Plus there is some science behind nofap


 There is no science behind it, only bro-science. Jerking off doesn't cause hairloss, go find that troll ResearchNeverFails and you guys can have a nofap party while you continue to watch your hair fall out.

----------


## hellouser

> Im not saying don't do it. I'm just bringing up some potential issues in the logic. U don't know if it does get to your hair without spreading it yourself.... we don't know either way. I can admit that. Its worth I try. I was just throwing out some analysis.
> 
> Plus there is some science behind nofap.....just nobody has studied the relationship enough for their to be citable literature.


 If thats the case, then howcome many male pornstars have a full head of hair, even well past their prime like Ron Jeremy? Abstinence does NOT reverse or halt hair loss. I'd put the blame on that stupid myth squarely on psychotic christians with their stone age thinking in persuading people not to masturbate or have sex before marriage. Absolutely RIDICULOUS.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Im not saying don't do it. I'm just bringing up some potential issues in the logic. U don't know if it does get to your hair without spreading it yourself.... we don't know either way. I can admit that. Its worth I try. I was just throwing out some analysis.
> 
> Plus there is some science behind nofap.....just nobody has studied the relationship enough for their to be citable literature.


 Really? you're one to talk about logic. First and foremost, I will admit that I have no way to be sure if it is absorbing the way it needs to. The thing is, that's why we're in this mess in the first place, I don't have a lab or a team of scientists with me, all we have in this community is our willingness to experiment, and that alone is sometimes more beneficial because we don't have to wait as long for approved treatments. I am trying to do my part here, but people(Specially old timers and religious nuts) can't seem to get out of the old ways of thinking. Some of you still think that you're the center of the universe and that everything revolves around you, and that your life is morphed by actions of your so called Deity. TROGLODYTES. 

I am trying to do my best to try and make it absorb as much as I can. I already found that liquification and dermarolling with .5mm prior to application, does indeed "Feel and Look" like it's being fully absorbed.
I know I can add everclear and other stuff to try and make it absorb better but I will do that if it doesn't work, I don't if alcohol destroys sperms properties. Which I would assume since it's very strong stuff for organic materials, but if you can find that it doesn't, let me know.
Remember, this is MPB we're talking about here, it had no mercy on any of us and we should attack it like a pack of wild wolfs.

----------


## walrus

> Plus there is some science behind nofap.....just nobody has studied the relationship enough for their to be citable literature.


 If there is no citable literature, then there is no science behind it.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> If there is no citable literature, then there is no science behind it.


 I didnt say fapping was the only cause.... I think over fapping speeds up or can hinder hairloss in a similar fashion to how the hormonal issues...which are the main cause

Listen to your logic walpus.... should we expect no future scientific discoveries because no research on it exists today? 

Now listen to your other statements guys:

Semen has good stuff for hair in it

Fapping has no effect on hair loss


Basically u guys cite one paper that claims the dht that fapping creats only pasts ten minutes..... one study.... and u base ypur entite conclusion on it without asking if its true, if there are two exogenous variables.. nothing.

And yet u rub it on your head (which, again, I am down with)

I was just mentioning some possible issues w the theory....please continue and let us know how it goes

----------


## greatjob!

> I didnt say fapping was the only cause.... I think over fapping speeds up or can hinder hairloss in a similar fashion to how the hormonal issues...which are the main cause


 Just because some guy on the internet wrote some bull about jerking it contributing to hairloss and you bought into it doesn't make it so. 

*Please show me one single credible source that suggest masturbation contributes to hairloss.*

While you're at it show me that wearing a hat causes hairloss, working out causes hairloss, hairloss only comes from your mothers side, combing your hair causes hairloss ect. ect. It's all old wives tale pseudoscience.

----------


## walrus

> Listen to your logic walpus.... should we expect no future scientific discoveries because no research on it exists today?


 No, but the fact remains you have an unsubstantiated theory.

----------


## mmmcoffee

If I remember correctly, masturbating does affect your hormones but it raises Testosterone either slightly or for not long enough to have a detrimental effect on hair.

I think the same goes for lifting weights. My guess is the rumor of lifting weights speeding up balding came from anabolic steroid use, which DOES speed up balding, and scare mongers just assumed healthy exercise speeds up balding, when it doesn't

----------


## hellouser

> If I remember correctly, masturbating does affect your hormones but it raises Testosterone either slightly or for not long enough to have a detrimental effect on hair.
> 
> I think the same goes for lifting weights. My guess is the rumor of lifting weights speeding up balding came from anabolic steroid use, which DOES speed up balding, and scare mongers just assumed healthy exercise speeds up balding, when it doesn't


 This.

End of discussion and wrong thread on top of that. Sigh.

----------


## Tracy C

Did I mention this really hurts?






> But if you are rolling with as much vigor as those reporting results...


 Sorry, I am unable to take those who are reporting results so soon very seriously.  I am duplicating the pilot study as much as I possibly can without altering my current regimen too much.






> On a side note, I missed the explanation for why you are using plastic wrap.


 I'm a girl.  I have long hair that could easily get tangled up in the roller.  The plastic wrap is food grade so there is not much to be concerned about - if anything at all.  I do inspect the used wrap when I am done to make sure pieces have not been left behind on my scalp.  The needles of the roller are very small and plenty sharp enough to poke through the plastic without tearing it up.

I prep the area I am going to roll over with betadine before I put the plastic wrap on.  Then again after I have rolled and removed the plastic.  Then I use the same cotton ball I used to apply the betadine to put a very thin film of Neosporin over the area.  The first time I rolled I did not put Neosporin over the area afterwards and I was very uncomfortable the next two days.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

Tracy, aren't you a woman, not a girl?

I don't remember the last time I referred to myself as a boy and i'm 24.

----------


## hellouser

> Tracy, aren't you a woman, not a girl?
> 
> I don't remember the last time I referred to myself as a boy and i'm 24.


 Women are allowed to fake it. Men are supposed to 'man up' and admit old age. Too bad men age gracefully like a fine wine.. women age like milk. Well, unless we're balding, the wine analogy doesn't really apply.

----------


## BBay

Thanks for the info I was going to use 0.5mm till I read the paper and understood the 5 day wait between wounding




> in that video, the guy doesnt understand how wounding works, positive results are not from increased absorption,  but from the natural expression of growth factors post wounding. thats why u need to wait at least 5-7 days between wounding sessions. 
> 
> Pge2 increases fgf9 expression wich allows for folicle neogenesis post wounding. without pge2 or minox, wich increases pge2   , folicle neogenesis cant occur, just scarring that can inhibit growth. This is essentially Follica's method. 
> 
> 
> yes rolling increases absorption,  but that isnt the goal of this trial. thats why they did not apply minox 24hr after wounding in the study, to rule out increased absorption being the cause of regrowth. and u MUST wait at least five days bewteen roll sesions for the body to express these growth factors .
> 
> 
> ps 1mm is too short , ive tried this,  go with 1.5 or 2mm, no pain no gain. unless u incorporate topical lidocaine before wounding

----------


## Tracy C

> Tracy, aren't you a woman, not a girl?
> 
> I don't remember the last time I referred to myself as a boy and i'm 24.


 I have girlfriends who are a lot older than me who still refer to themselves as girls.  I never give it any thought actually.  I was just free writing and more concerned with the explanation than the fact that I am female.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> I have girlfriends who are a lot older than me who still refer to themselves as girls.  I never give it any thought actually.  I was just free writing and more concerned with the explanation than the fact that I am female.


 Thought I typically don't like you tracey, I don't read into you using the word girl that much. i think it's quite normal. I wouldn't give it any thought.

----------


## greatjob!

> Tracy, aren't you a woman, not a girl?
> 
> I don't remember the last time I referred to myself as a boy and i'm 24.


 That is not an equal comparison. 

In conversational English it's pretty common for women to refer to themselves as girls i.e. "girls night out". It's analogous to men using the the term guy not boy i.e. "guys night".

Also kind of a nit picky statement, who cares if she calls herself a girl.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> That is not an equal comparison. 
> 
> In conversational English it's pretty common for women to refer to themselves as girls i.e. "girls night out". It's analogous to men using the the term guy not boy i.e. "guys night".
> 
> Also kind of a nit picky statement, who cares if she calls herself a girl.


 Well, calm down. I wasn't asking to offend her, or any Women's Rights Activists on this forum. I was actually asking her to confirm her age, because I was planning on asking her out on a date, where we can just talk about our hair loss all day. You seem more offended than her.

----------


## Tracy C

> You seem more offended than her.


 I wasn't offended.  If anything I found it a little humorous.   :Smile:

----------


## greatjob!

> Well, calm down. I wasn't asking to offend her, or any Women's Rights Activists on this forum. I was actually asking her to confirm her age, because I was planning on asking her out on a date, where we can just talk about our hair loss all day. You seem more offended than her.


 No need for me to calm down I wasn't upset. Just pointing out that guy and girl are synonyms and pretty interchangeable. Anyways proceed Casanova, lol.

----------


## PrettyFly83

Hey All

here is a quick 4 month update shot:

Screen Grab Compare:

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=0

Start: (Zoom twice for HD)
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=2

4 month: (Zoom twice for HD)
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Pr...tml?sort=3&o=1

----------


## Chromeo

Clearly works. Awesome.

----------


## vanityhair

> Hey All
> 
> here is a quick 4 month update shot


 Wow, really great PrettyFly. A testament to patience for Hair Loss treatments, something I unfortunately have little of. Are you still only on Minox/VitC/MSM/Dermarolling? 

Can't wait to see the results in a few more months!

----------


## gainspotter

Hmm, doesn't look too bad, still hard to tell whether they are existing hairs growing out though.
This gives me a bit more hope nonetheless.

----------


## brunobald

Pasting in the below just so everyone knows what prettyFly is using




> Correction, minox for 1 month then started rolling. Been rolling for 2.5months now and minox for 3.5. As much as ive researched, minox does not give you a result in 2-3months, takes at leasr 4 for results to start showing. Keep optimistic guys, no point in being negative as whats to loose? 15 bucks on a derma roller that you can use for other treatments? Im keeping this going till end november and only then will make the call!


 
Looks like a definite improvement, but hard to tell if minox alone would do this? Good results though.

----------


## goingquick

> Pasting in the below just so everyone knows what prettyFly is using
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a definite improvement, but hard to tell if minox alone would do this? Good results though.


 I had pretty quick minix results, so you can definitely see improvements earlier than 4 months.

----------


## gainspotter

> I had pretty quick minix results, so you can definitely see improvements earlier than 4 months.


 Agreed.

----------


## DesperateOne

Prettyflys's results are useless for derma rolling. Since he took it around the same time he start rolling, it can be most likely that his growth was from minox. Even if it was from rolling, the fact that he started a couple of months ago with minox, completely disqualifies him from any possible validity of derma rolling. Shame because I was looking forward to his results.

----------


## Sogeking

How often did prettyFly apply minox? And how long were the needles on dermaroller?
Thank you.

----------


## the_dude78

> How often did prettyFly apply minox? And how long were the needles on dermaroller?
> Thank you.


 http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpos...7&postcount=55

----------


## bigentries

> Prettyflys's results are useless for derma rolling. Since he took it around the same time he start rolling, it can be most likely that his growth was from minox. Even if it was from rolling, the fact that he started a couple of months ago with minox, completely disqualifies him from any possible validity of derma rolling. Shame because I was looking forward to his results.


 Well, many people (like myself) started minox with dermarolling.

I don't think any results we provide are "useless" but need to be taken into account that we started (or restarted) minox at the same time.

This was going to be a huge issue with the study, without a minox only group, you can't be sure if any results produced are better than using minox alone

I'm more worried about the lack of results, besides PrettyFly, there is no one else providing clear pictures of regrowth

----------


## Dan26

im def getting temple action nice velus hairs soem dark, and shedding a lot....need more time tho

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

shedding is good i suppose?shedding=reset hair cycle.




> im def getting temple action nice velus hairs soem dark, and shedding a lot....need more time tho

----------


## Conpecia

we started in mid-july. it's late september. nowhere near long enough to evaluate. can we please just give this until 2014 before we write it off?

----------


## greatjob!

> we started in mid-july. it's late september. nowhere near long enough to evaluate. can we please just give this until 2014 before we write it off?


 Patience and common sense? If I didn't know better I would think you were new to tbt, lol.



For me I could careless what others do or report. Even if everyone here decides it's useless I'm still rolling for a year unless some cure comes out of left field before then. Got to be sure something doesn't work before you throw it in the trash heap, or else whats the point of even trying in the first place.

----------


## bigentries

> we started in mid-july. it's late september. nowhere near long enough to evaluate. can we please just give this until 2014 before we write it off?


 Until 2014?

The study was pretty clear, amazing results in 3 months with almost 100% success rate, pointing out that in 6 weeks the growth was noticeable.

If you don't get results in 3 months, we either messed up with the study or the study is not possible to reproduce

There comes a time when you need to stop clinging to hopes, see the guy that posted the incredible results with indomethacin in december, it's almost a year, people haven't seen any other results and are still using that stuff

----------


## chimera

> Prettyflys's results are useless for derma rolling. Since he took it around the same time he start rolling, it can be most likely that his growth was from minox. Even if it was from rolling, the fact that he started a couple of months ago with minox, completely disqualifies him from any possible validity of derma rolling. Shame because I was looking forward to his results.


 Oh yeah?... didn't you told me to stop being so pessimist and to take my negativity out of here just for saying the same thing like one month and a half before...?

----------


## greatjob!

> Oh yeah?... didn't you told me to stop being so pessimist and to take my negativity out of here just for saying the same thing like one month and a half before...?

----------


## LongWayHome

> 


 So...John Abruzzi is balding too.

Wait until Mahone finds out he's not dead...

----------


## Conpecia

> Until 2014?
> 
> The study was pretty clear, amazing results in 3 months with almost 100% success rate, pointing out that in 6 weeks the growth was noticeable.
> 
> If you don't get results in 3 months, we either messed up with the study or the study is not possible to reproduce
> 
> There comes a time when you need to stop clinging to hopes, see the guy that posted the incredible results with indomethacin in december, it's almost a year, people haven't seen any other results and are still using that stuff


 Do what you want. I'm rolling until 2014. It's too easy a treatment to just stop after 6 weeks...

----------


## bigentries

> Do what you want. I'm rolling until 2014. It's too easy a treatment to just stop after 6 weeks...


 I never said 6 weeks. The study was 12 weeks long and if someone already jumped into experimenting, they should do the whole 12 weeks

But the study also said that at 6 weeks the growth was noticeable, and I already crossed that milestone and my hair remains unchanged, so something is wrong, either me (not a responder, bad methodology) or the study

People get emotional with treatments and refuse to admit they tried something that it's simply not going to work, you see it all the time in hair loss forums

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

growth was noticable from the best responders at the study at 6th week...

----------


## bigentries

> growth was noticable from the best responders at the study at 6th week...


 It never talks about best responders




> Initiation of new hair growth was noticeable by around 6 weeks in Microneedling group and by 10 weeks in Minoxidil group.
> Rapid growth in the existing hair was seen at week 1 in the Microneedling group than Minoxidil group


 Even the minoxidil group shows suspiciously fast growth

And only 20% on the people in the dermaroller group could not be considered "good responders"

This study is too good to be true, specially with the results reported so far

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys look



if the follicles are that deep then 1.5mm aint do s hit....

we need to wound around their roots i suppose.....so the stem cells and factors will be produced at that depth.....

what you think?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

the info comes from reputable member that contacted the guys that performed the study read the hole thread and also the twin thread on ***


> It never talks about best responders
> 
> 
> 
> Even the minoxidil group shows suspiciously fast growth
> 
> And only 20% on the people in the dermaroller group could not be considered "good responders"
> 
> This study is too good to be true, specially with the results reported so far

----------


## bigentries

> the info comes from reputable member that contacted the guys that performed the study read the hole thread and also the twin thread on ***


 But again, who are the best responders? Because 80% of the group can be classified as very good responders

Who is the reputable member? The only guy here that claimed to contact the researchers joined the forum like 3 months ago, does he has any other posting history in other forums?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

chill just believe what i say i dont have a reason to f  around i suffer too...

cheers

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_healing

----------


## bigentries

> chill just believe what i say i dont have a reason to f  around i suffer too...
> 
> cheers


 I'm just making some questions, I know people tend to not like skepticism, but I never understand why every cure of the month is considered "the one" that should not be questioned and you should just hope it works.

I just can't "believe what you say", sorry dude, but hairloss forums have over a decade of people using these sort of tactics without any new treatment resulting from them

I just don't like the lack of results so far, the study was too good, we should already have tons of pics showing clear regrowth

----------


## Pentarou

> I just can't "believe what you say", sorry dude, but hairloss forums have over a decade of people using these sort of tactics without any new treatment resulting from them


 A study from a peer-reviewed journal that we can reproduce cheaply at home is something quite different to the usual 'black market substance of the week' crazes.

----------


## bigentries

> A study from a peer-reviewed journal that we can reproduce cheaply at home is something quite different to the usual 'black market substance of the week' crazes.


 More reason to not use the same logic used with all other snake oils

If a study says amazing growth has to happen in 80% of people using it in 12 weeks (with 6 weeks being enough to see some results) but people don't report anything in 12 weeks then:
- The study was flawed
- People didn't performed it as it should, and changing variables, like needle length (or using semen!) is just speculation and has turned experimentation based in a legit study into another weird thing baldies do on hair loss forums with no real reasoning behind

----------


## DesperateOne

The study does not say the results happened in 12 weeks, those amazing results were seen after about a year.

----------


## Pentarou

> The study does not say the results happened in 12 weeks, those amazing results were seen after about a year.


 Importantly - on a shaven head, under magnification.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> guys look
> 
> 
> 
> if the follicles are that deep then 1.5mm aint do s hit....
> 
> we need to wound around their roots i suppose.....so the stem cells and factors will be produced at that depth.....
> 
> what you think?


 
miniaturized hairs have a shallow depth compared to terminal healthy hairs. they are at least half as deep.

----------


## Conpecia

> More reason to not use the same logic used with all other snake oils
> 
> If a study says amazing growth has to happen in 80&#37; of people using it in 12 weeks (with 6 weeks being enough to see some results) but people don't report anything in 12 weeks then:
> - The study was flawed
> - People didn't performed it as it should, and changing variables, like needle length (or using semen!) is just speculation and has turned experimentation based in a legit study into another weird thing baldies do on hair loss forums with no real reasoning behind


 dude, seriously. we know all of this shit. there is nothing to do but try it for 6 months and tweak/abandon it if nothing works. there is literally nothing else we can do at this point. nothing you are saying changes the fact that it should be tried for 6 months, regardless of what the study says. no rational person is expecting this to give him a full head of hair from NW7. we just have to have a bunch of people try it for the same amount of time most people would see results from treatments like minox or propecia. then, if only one out of fifty guys gets any kind of results after 6 months, we know pretty damn conclusively that the study was complete bs and that dermarolling with 1.5mm isn't going to bring back hair like the study suggests. 

but if people listen to you and start dropping out after 2.5 or 3 months, and then out of the remaining, say, 10 people, 5 get significant regrowth... we have no clue whether those 5 were incredible responders or whether it simply takes longer. then we have to do this entire ****ing thing all over again next year instead of being able to make adjustments after 6 months with conclusive data.

you are right. it probably will not work like the study. but we will know with certainty if we try it for 6 months. and it's cheap. and once a week. and not time consuming. so let's just do it and not shoot it down over and over.

----------


## LevonHelms

> dude, seriously. we know all of this shit. there is nothing to do but try it for 6 months and tweak/abandon it if nothing works. there is literally nothing else we can do at this point. nothing you are saying changes the fact that it should be tried for 6 months, regardless of what the study says. no rational person is expecting this to give him a full head of hair from NW7. we just have to have a bunch of people try it for the same amount of time most people would see results from treatments like minox or propecia. then, if only one out of fifty guys gets any kind of results after 6 months, we know pretty damn conclusively that the study was complete bs and that dermarolling with 1.5mm isn't going to bring back hair like the study suggests. 
> 
> but if people listen to you and start dropping out after 2.5 or 3 months, and then out of the remaining, say, 10 people, 5 get significant regrowth... we have no clue whether those 5 were incredible responders or whether it simply takes longer. then we have to do this entire ****ing thing all over again next year instead of being able to make adjustments after 6 months with conclusive data.
> 
> you are right. it probably will not work like the study. but we will know with certainty if we try it for 6 months. and it's cheap. and once a week. and not time consuming. so let's just do it and not shoot it down over and over.


 Thank you

----------


## Chromeo

> dude, seriously. we know all of this shit. there is nothing to do but try it for 6 months and tweak/abandon it if nothing works. there is literally nothing else we can do at this point. nothing you are saying changes the fact that it should be tried for 6 months, regardless of what the study says. no rational person is expecting this to give him a full head of hair from NW7. we just have to have a bunch of people try it for the same amount of time most people would see results from treatments like minox or propecia. then, if only one out of fifty guys gets any kind of results after 6 months, we know pretty damn conclusively that the study was complete bs and that dermarolling with 1.5mm isn't going to bring back hair like the study suggests. 
> 
> but if people listen to you and start dropping out after 2.5 or 3 months, and then out of the remaining, say, 10 people, 5 get significant regrowth... we have no clue whether those 5 were incredible responders or whether it simply takes longer. then we have to do this entire ****ing thing all over again next year instead of being able to make adjustments after 6 months with conclusive data.
> 
> you are right. it probably will not work like the study. but we will know with certainty if we try it for 6 months. and it's cheap. and once a week. and not time consuming. so let's just do it and not shoot it down over and over.


 Yeah, what this guy says.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

nice info thanks   :Smile: 


> miniaturized hairs have a shallow depth compared to terminal healthy hairs. they are at least half as deep.

----------


## bigentries

> The study does not say the results happened in 12 weeks, those amazing results were seen after about a year.


 So they lied about the pictures? The pictures clearly say they are at 12 weeks




> dude, seriously. we know all of this shit. there is nothing to do but try it for 6 months and tweak/abandon it if nothing works. there is literally nothing else we can do at this point. nothing you are saying changes the fact that it should be tried for 6 months, regardless of what the study says. no rational person is expecting this to give him a full head of hair from NW7. we just have to have a bunch of people try it for the same amount of time most people would see results from treatments like minox or propecia. then, if only one out of fifty guys gets any kind of results after 6 months, we know pretty damn conclusively that the study was complete bs and that dermarolling with 1.5mm isn't going to bring back hair like the study suggests. 
> 
> but if people listen to you and start dropping out after 2.5 or 3 months, and then out of the remaining, say, 10 people, 5 get significant regrowth... we have no clue whether those 5 were incredible responders or whether it simply takes longer. then we have to do this entire ****ing thing all over again next year instead of being able to make adjustments after 6 months with conclusive data.
> 
> you are right. it probably will not work like the study. but we will know with certainty if we try it for 6 months. and it's cheap. and once a week. and not time consuming. so let's just do it and not shoot it down over and over.


 Why 6 months?
Again, I don't understand this kind of rationale people use when a treatment is not going the way they expected

This year people used the same rationale with indomethacin, just wait and pray, don't question anything

I'll complete the 12 weeks, but I'm realistic, people should stop reasoning with naive optimism

And we don't have "5 out of 10" if 50&#37; of people trying it would be getting some results, I would be claiming this is a potential treatment in the future. Besides Prettyfly, no one has provided evidence of regrowth

----------


## Pentarou

How is this like indomethacin? This is based around a journal article, not some anonymous person on a hair loss forum claiming something without evidence.

----------


## bigentries

> How is this like indomethacin? This is based around a journal article, not some anonymous person on a hair loss forum claiming something without evidence.


 Indomethacin was also based in poorly understood trials, and the guy at recuperaelpelo provided questionable evidence

The dermarolling turned into another quack treatment the moment people started to diverge from the study, and not only by increasing the period required to see results, people are starting to use semen at ***!

----------


## DesperateOne

> So they lied about the pictures? The pictures clearly say they are at 12 weeks
> 
> 
> Why 6 months?
> Again, I don't understand this kind of rationale people use when a treatment is not going the way they expected
> 
> This year people used the same rationale with indomethacin, just wait and pray, don't question anything
> 
> I'll complete the 12 weeks, but I'm realistic, people should stop reasoning with naive optimism
> ...


 No I mean the before and after where it shows their entire head and you could see cosmeticly good results. They said they followed up about 8 months later and those are the pictures they posted, after the 8 months to a year.
However, you are right that we have every right to question certain procedures specially since we now have great insight into follicas method.


After reading a lot and this derma study, I have a theory that makes sense to me. To me what we are doing by replicating this study is not the holy grail of hair follicle neogenesis, there is simply more peices of the puzzle we need for that, more recently we vitaly need an egfr inhibitor In order to to turn cells into follicles. Also, this study mentions one week intervals, when follica is clearly waiting at least two weeks, we are simply not giving it enough time to let the wounds heal.
So it seems that by going by the study protocol, we are revitalizing the scalp with nutrients and hair does grow thicker and also some hair that was lost but has not perished, will regrow again as vellus or terminal hair. So again, the study wil not produce new follicles at the current protocol, just my analysis, so take it with a grain of salt.

https://www.google.com/patents/US8252749

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

its not only pretty fly results ,,more people get results.... for sure.i saw...

just check the forums better,,,,

----------


## bigentries

> its not only pretty fly results ,,more people get results.... for sure.i saw...
> 
> just check the forums better,,,,


 Who? at *** a guy posted pictures of his hair at a considerable distance and blurry, there is no way to tell if something is happening

Other people claiming results at *** are new users that didn't took pictures or are claiming that they "don't need to prove anything"

You keep repeating people are posting results, where are they?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

look my friend i dont win anything either you believe or not...

scroll the pages .for you


> Who? at *** a guy posted pictures of his hair at a considerable distance and blurry, there is no way to tell if something is happening
> 
> Other people claiming results at *** are new users that didn't took pictures or are claiming that they "don't need to prove anything"
> 
> You keep repeating people are posting results, where are they?

----------


## bigentries

> look my friend i dont win anything either you believe or not...
> 
> scroll the pages .for you


 Scroll the pages? What do you mean?

At least name a few or stop claiming people are posting their results (outside of anecdotal evidence)

----------


## MackJames

I'm going to following the protocol of the study meticulously until the end of the year.   The protocol is straight forward and easy to follow.  There is very little chance of causing harm in comparison to the oter experiments some have partaken in.   I'm a pretty objective person and if I see no results I will be honest about it.

----------


## hellouser

> I'm going to following the protocol of the study meticulously until the end of the year.   The protocol is straight forward and easy to follow.  There is very little chance of causing harm in comparison to the oter experiments some have partaken in.   *I'm a pretty objective person and if I see no results I will be honest about it.*


 Your hair will tell the story. No need for being objective :P

----------


## MackJames

> Your hair will tell the story. No need for being objective :P


 

Some people see things they want to see out of desperation for a viable treatment.

----------


## hellouser

> Some people see things they want to see out of desperation for a viable treatment.


 Those people have bigger problems than hair loss. Too bad theyre allowed to speak in public.... this forum included.

----------


## MackJames

> Those people have bigger problems than hair loss. Too bad theyre allowed to speak in public.... this forum included.


 I feel for them and their struggle but I also agree with you. It's time to see a therapist when one starts putting semen on their head.

----------


## chimera

> look my friend i dont win anything either you believe or not...
> 
> scroll the pages .for you


 What are you talking about?, DesperatOne in here, super and squeeguee on ***,  and dodgept on hlh... who else besides this guys have posted pics?

Not only that, but the pics posted by all those guys are just useless. Bad quality with no before pictures.

----------


## chimera

Still... who knows?... we still have one more month ahead of us... maybe will see something that makes continue with the dermaroller worth...

If by november most of us see at least a considerable (and beyond any doubt) amount of at least just vellus hair, I would still say this is worth a shoot...

----------


## chimera

> Not only that, but the pics posted by all those guys are just useless. Bad quality with no before pictures.


 Excluding prettyfly pictures. Those were good quality (though hard to tell if his results are from dermaroller plus minox or just minox alone).

----------


## DesperateOne

> What are you talking about?, DesperatOne in here, super and squeeguee on ***,  and dodgept on hlh... who else besides this guys have posted pics?
> 
> Not only that, but the pics posted by all those guys are just useless. Bad quality with no before pictures.


 Everyone, just disregard chimera and his negativity. We should see this all the way, at least six months since that's how long it usually takes for new hair to appear. Don't mind his armchair scientist ego let you down, we all feel a difference. We obviously donh have super high quality cameras to take before and after pictures to make this pawn believe us. Nor do we have to prove anything to him, this is all experimentation and he has forgotten about that part.

----------


## hellouser

> Everyone, just disregard chimera and his negativity. We should see this all the way, at least six months since that's how long it usually takes for new hair to appear. Don't mind his armchair scientist ego let you down, we all feel a difference. We obviously donh have super high quality cameras to take before and after pictures to make this pawn believe us. Nor do we have to prove anything to him, this is all experimentation and he has forgotten about that part.


 I've posted this many times before but the term 'good quality' is so vague it is meaningless. Define 'good quality' ?? I can take a 5 year old point and shoot camera and take pictures of my hair and get results that would satisfy all of you with your expectations of a 2 thousand dollar digital SLR camera. Its not about a 'good quality' camera, its about knowing how to USE a camera.

You guys are starting to sound like John Madden;

'Todays game is about great football. Because playing great football is great football and playing great football is great football. These guys on the field are playing great football and if they weren't playing great football it'd just be mediocre football, but they're out there playing great football and thats what great football is all about'

Tracey is particularly guilty of this. Throws out the 'good quality' excuse without giving any definition behind it.

We're trying to be as scientific as possible here by potentially following Follica's wounding method so it requires great detail and we're just going to toss around 'good quality' as if it means something?

----------


## chimera

> Everyone, just disregard chimera and his negativity. We should see this all the way, at least six months since that's how long it usually takes for new hair to appear. Don't mind his armchair scientist ego let you down, we all feel a difference. We obviously donh have super high quality cameras to take before and after pictures to make this pawn believe us. Nor do we have to prove anything to him, this is all experimentation and he has forgotten about that part.


 I know we are all diferent. But the study we are following said three months. If we follow a protocol we saw at the study, yet we hope for a different outcome there's something wrong in here, can't you see it?

You can't choose to pick what you like or what you want, and to ignore what you don't want or you don't like. You can't just choose to follow the same metodology of the study, but choose for a different outcome, that is, an extended time-frame. You just want to convince yourself that you will see results in more time (which you may I admit).

If we are following a determined protocol, the least, the least we can do is to expect determined results (with the obvious variables we are bond to get), but right now the only constant is no results (that may change soon, I hope).

You tell "everyone" not to hear me, like if anybody trust you at all. In here and ***, you are seen by most people as nothing more than a psychotic. More than one have already pointed out how good choice you made with your username. 

(Whatever, I already know I am not loved either).

----------


## chimera

By the way, I'm not saying we should stop just yet. I'm just criticising in my own way this part of the process, just as any other part of it should be. I'm still waiting for results, as awesome or humble as they might be. At this point I do think this will help us in some way or another.

As I said before, I don't think we'll get the same results the study pointed out, yet, just because we don't get the same results, that does not mean I think the use of the dermaroller or the wounding theory won't work in some way.

----------


## gainspotter

Updating my current regimen.
After dermarolling I am covering my scalp in 'essential' oils, leaving them for half an hour then shampooing with nizoral and adding minox.
See if anything happens.

----------


## DesperateOne

> I know we are all diferent. But the study we are following said three months. If we follow a protocol we saw at the study, yet we hope for a different outcome there's something wrong in here, can't you see it?
> 
> You can't choose to pick what you like or what you want, and to ignore what you don't want or you don't like. You can't just choose to follow the same metodology of the study, but choose for a different outcome, that is, an extended time-frame. You just want to convince yourself that you will see results in more time (which you may I admit).
> 
> If we are following a determined protocol, the least, the least we can do is to expect determined results (with the obvious variables we are bond to get), but right now the only constant is no results (that may change soon, I hope).
> 
> You tell "everyone" not to hear me, like if anybody trust you at all. In here and ***, you are seen by most people as nothing more than a psychotic. More than one have already pointed out how good choice you made with your username. 
> 
> (Whatever, I already know I am not loved either).


 People have already contacted them and they admitted in being vague about some aspects of he protocol such as bleeding. Why can't you get that through you thick skull!? Also, I may be seen as desperate but I have done more than any one of you chickens has done. Why haven't any one you posted any pictures what so ever? Are you scared of the camera or what. 

I said not to lisen to you because your comments implicitly say that after three months of replicating the study we see no results, then this is another quack treatment. May I remind you that a lot of people read this without posting.

@hellouser, well I don't know anymore about good quality. I know my pics are crap but if you take a look at the very first ones and one of the recent ones, then even with bay quality, you would be a fool not to see regrowth.

And yes, we are getting close to follica, specially now with that new patent, it was on of the important parts of the puzzle, but we still need to get som lithium.

----------


## the_dude78

> Updating my current regimen.
> After dermarolling I am covering my scalp in 'essential' oils, leaving them for half an hour then shampooing with nizoral and adding minox.
> See if anything happens.


 I'm not sure it is wise to add nizoral so soon. It has an anti-inflammatory effect.

----------


## gainspotter

> I'm not sure it is wise to add nizoral so soon. It has an anti-inflammatory effect.


 What would be the effect of adding it after? Sorry I'm not that clued up on it. I just think adding all the essentials immediately after would increase absorbtion and effect. I know the study isn't about increasing absorbtion I just want to mix it up a bit see if I get any results.

----------


## MackJames

> People have already contacted them and they admitted in being vague about some aspects of he protocol such as bleeding. Why can't you get that through you thick skull!? Also, I may be seen as desperate but I have done more than any one of you chickens has done. Why haven't any one you posted any pictures what so ever? Are you scared of the camera or what. 
> 
> I said not to lisen to you because your comments implicitly say that after three months of replicating the study we see no results, then this is another quack treatment. May I remind you that a lot of people read this without posting.
> 
> @hellouser, well I don't know anymore about good quality. I know my pics are crap but if you take a look at the very first ones and one of the recent ones, then even with bay quality, you would be a fool not to see regrowth.
> 
> And yes, we are getting close to follica, specially now with that new patent, it was on of the important parts of the puzzle, but we still need to get som lithium.


 
I haven't posted pictures yet because I buzzed my hair down to the scalp and wanted it to grow out some.  My hair is almost completely gray white as well. Took my first pic on Tuesday

----------


## Conpecia

> So they lied about the pictures? The pictures clearly say they are at 12 weeks
> 
> 
> Why 6 months?
> Again, I don't understand this kind of rationale people use when a treatment is not going the way they expected
> 
> This year people used the same rationale with indomethacin, just wait and pray, don't question anything
> 
> I'll complete the 12 weeks, but I'm realistic, people should stop reasoning with naive optimism
> ...


 THEN STOP AFTER 3 MONTHS. WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU MAN? 

what are you trying to prove here? do you think i don't question the study too? do you think i am going to roll needles into my skull for 5 ****ing years just to see if it takes longer than 6 months?? i am doing it for 6 months because that's what experts TELL you to do with MOST hair treatments. i DO NOT think i will get results like the study. i DO NOT think we are on to the cure for male pattern baldness. i DO think that there is a SMALL ****ING CHANCE that i will see slightly improved growth on my hairline. 

please tell me how that is naively optimistic??? enlighten me...

----------


## bigentries

> THEN STOP AFTER 3 MONTHS. WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU MAN? 
> 
> what are you trying to prove here? do you think i don't question the study too? do you think i am going to roll needles into my skull for 5 ****ing years just to see if it takes longer than 6 months?? i am doing it for 6 months because that's what experts TELL you to do with MOST hair treatments. i DO NOT think i will get results like the study. i DO NOT think we are on to the cure for male pattern baldness. i DO think that there is a SMALL ****ING CHANCE that i will see slightly improved growth on my hairline. 
> 
> please tell me how that is naively optimistic??? enlighten me...


 Wow, don't get so mad man, I know people don't like questioning here. That's what I call naive optimism, just see how you reacted, don't tell me you are not internalizing all this stuff

Experts tell you to wait 2 years with fin too. But you are comparing apple to oranges, the study clearly claimed amazing results in 12 weeks, that is enough to compare ourselves to the study.

Increasing time, using larger needles, putting semen on your head, it stopped being scientific a long time ago.

Don't see this as an attack, I'm still in, I'll complete 12 weeks, maybe will go to 14 because I don't think I performed the first two sessions with enough damage, I will also wish more people joined us and completed the 12 weeks as it should

But all of you that hang out at *** have just turned this thing into another mental masturbation circle that potential treatments end up falling, even some are claiming lots of people are showing results when the only clear evidence has been the one provided by Prettyfly

----------


## greatjob!

I'm also not sure what people are trying to accomplish arguing here. Are you trying to convince people to stop rolling after a certain time frame? What's the point of that?

If you want to stop then stop. If you want to roll for 10 years then roll for 10 years. Trying to convince someone to stop testing a certain treatment is only going to hurt yourself and everyone in the community. Let people do whatever they want, who cares, the more people trying different things for different periods of time the more information will be gained by the community. 

If you are going to stop rolling after 12 weeks then go ahead and do that, but why would you try and convince everyone that your strategy is right and they should all do the same, it makes no sense.

----------


## bigentries

> I'm also not sure what people are trying to accomplish arguing here. Are you trying to convince people to stop rolling after a certain time frame? What's the point of that?
> 
> If you want to stop then stop. If you want to roll for 10 years then roll for 10 years. Trying to convince someone to stop testing a certain treatment is only going to hurt yourself and everyone in the community. Let people do whatever they want, who cares, the more people trying different things for different periods of time the more information will be gained by the community. 
> 
> If you are going to stop rolling after 12 weeks then go ahead and do that, but why would you try and convince everyone that your strategy is right and they should all do the same, it makes no sense.


 Why doesn't it make some sense?
The study clearly said that at 12 weeks, extremely good results are shown. If you want to continue, continue, but you are not following the study anymore and just using cargo science logic

People have the right to state their opinion, if you don't have a solid point to back up your arguments, then don't post anything if you don't like the replies

Imagine if people didn't have the right to state that stuff like CG 210 is crap. Should we stop replying just because habemus is going to be offended?

What about lasers, micropigmentation, etc.?

----------


## greatjob!

> Why doesn't it make some sense?
> The study clearly said that at 12 weeks, extremely good results are shown. If you want to continue, continue, but you are not following the study anymore and just using cargo science logic
> 
> People have the right to state their opinion, if you don't have a solid point to back up your arguments, then don't post anything if you don't like the replies
> 
> Imagine if people didn't have the right to state that stuff like CG 210 is crap. Should we stop replying just because habemus is going to be offended?
> 
> What about lasers, micropigmentation, etc.?


 You are way off topic and making irrelevant comparisons. Why would you discourage people to stop rolling after 12 weeks? What does anyone gain from that? That's what makes no sense. 

I know what the study said and what the time frame was, however show me one single treatment for hairloss that you would expect to show results at 3 months. They don't exist. So thinking that if you don't see results after 3 months then everyone should stop, isn't logical. This was a pilot study, if a follow up study was conducted it would no doubt have longer and varying time periods. So I don't think we should be trying to replicate the study exactly with regards to the time frame, instead we should be trying to conduct our own follow up study to see if results can improve with an increase in duration.

Also speaking up against snake oils that are very expensive is good for everyone, because it saves people money. However that is not equivalent to speaking up about derma rolling, it cost next to nothing so by speaking up and getting people to stop you're not really helping anyone. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing and trying to show people on the internet that you have a superior scientific mind, trust me we are all so impressed.

----------


## LevonHelms

Alright, alright, break it up guys.

Let's get a head count.  
How many people do we have out there following the study?  Lurkers this includes you. Sign in.

A simple yay or nay, what week you're on, and perceived results (good or bad).



Yes. Week 9.  Lots of vellus, a few terminals, rapid growth.

----------


## chimera

> Yes. Week 9.  Lots of vellus, a few terminals, rapid growth.


 For real?. I don't think anybody will get the same awesome results that the study suggested, but if you could prove something like this I would get somewhat excited indeed. Anyway, I suppose you have your reasons to not post pics yet.

----------


## bigentries

> You are way off topic and making irrelevant comparisons. Why would you discourage people to stop rolling after 12 weeks? What does anyone gain from that? That's what makes no sense. 
> 
> I know what the study said and what the time frame was, however show me one single treatment for hairloss that you would expect to show results at 3 months. They don't exist. So thinking that if you don't see results after 3 months then everyone should stop, isn't logical. This was a pilot study, if a follow up study was conducted it would no doubt have longer and varying time periods. So I don't think we should be trying to replicate the study exactly with regards to the time frame, instead we should be trying to conduct our own follow up study to see if results can improve with an increase in duration.
> 
> Also speaking up against snake oils that are very expensive is good for everyone, because it saves people money. However that is not equivalent to speaking up about derma rolling, it cost next to nothing so by speaking up and getting people to stop you're not really helping anyone. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing and trying to show people on the internet that you have a superior scientific mind, trust me we are all so impressed.


 Did you seriously stopped so low as to use an insulting gif? Are your arguments not enought?

So what I understand is that, you don't believe the study could show results in 3 months? Then you are admitting you think the study is bogus

If the study claimed it took them 6 months to show results, I would advice everyone to do it as it is described by study. But the study is very clear, 3 months is enough, and if nothing shows up in 3 months, then we either need to question the legitimacy of the study, or the way we are perform it it

But people are getting defensive and don't want to question either one of those possibilities

Instead of fighting like children, let's argue and try to understand this

Why are there no results yet? Things are not going well

My position is that most of us are doing exactly what the study says, at least the ones that are using 1.5mm needles until slight hemorrhage occurs.
I don't trust the study completely now, since people are starting to claim the pictures labeled as 12-week results are said to be 1 year results

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

friends how you do?

my roller arrives soon.,...

please god make it work....

Levon give us some pics...we hair starve haire...

good night brothers

----------


## chimera

> Alright, alright, break it up guys.
> 
> Let's get a head count.  
> How many people do we have out there following the study?  Lurkers this includes you. Sign in.


 There are many meticulously curious people in here. To avoid further questions and chaos, it would be nice if we also point out the rest of our treatment (minox, fin, keto or whatever, and since how long have we been on these).

----------


## greatjob!

> Did you seriously stopped so low as to use an insulting gif? Are your arguments not enought?
> 
> So what I understand is that, you don't believe the study could show results in 3 months? Then you are admitting you think the study is bogus
> 
> If the study claimed it took them 6 months to show results, I would advice everyone to do it as it is described by study. But the study is very clear, 3 months is enough, and if nothing shows up in 3 months, then we either need to question the legitimacy of the study, or the way we are perform it it
> 
> But people are getting defensive and don't want to question either one of those possibilities
> 
> Instead of fighting like children, let's argue and try to understand this
> ...


 Well you seemed to only focus on the GIF when you should have focused on what I said like:




> This was a pilot study, if a follow up study was conducted it would no doubt have longer and varying time periods. So I don't think we should be trying to replicate the study exactly with regards to the time frame, instead we should be trying to conduct our own follow up study to see if results can improve with an increase in duration.


 I could really careless what you think about the study or derma rolling in general. I'm going to do this for a year. If it does nothing then I'll stop.I just don't see the point in trying to convince people to stop the treatment after 12 weeks, but whatever have fun.

----------


## bigentries

> I could really careless what you think about the study or derma rolling in general. I'm going to do this for a year. If it does nothing then I'll stop.I just don't see the point in trying to convince people to stop the treatment after 12 weeks, but whatever have fun.


 But why do a "follow up" if you don't know if the first study is right in the first place?

Seriously, I don't understand the logic you are using, the point of this thread was to replicate the study, to avoid all variables and see if the numbers added up.
There are also studies concerning laser helmets and CG 210, in case you want to try those too.

Anyway, my info:
3 years on fin
4 years ago used minox for a year, stopped after seeing no results
7 weeks applying minox, 6 weeks dermarolling
Nothing to report concerning results, no increased shedding, no vellus hair

----------


## bibz

3th session of 2.0mm dermarolling just like the clinical trial but only on the temple area and hairline, and i got a ****ing huge shedding on these area, is that a good or bad sign guyz?

----------


## greatjob!

> But why do a "follow up" if you don't know if the first study is right in the first place?
> 
> Seriously, I don't understand the logic you are using, the point of this thread was to replicate the study, to avoid all variables and see if the numbers added up.
> There are also studies concerning laser helmets and CG 210, in case you want to try those too.


 I'm not performing a study with anyone, that's my point. Why are you so concerned with trying to convince people to stop rolling after 12 weeks, who cares. If you want to follow the study to the exact letter and stop after 12 weeks then that's fine, but why do you think other people should do the same?

I'm not trying to produce a study, I'm trying to regrow my hair and I don't expect that to happen in 3 months so I'm going to give it more time. You and everyone else are free to do what ever you like. You don't see me trying to convince people to roll as long as me, because frankly I don't care and I am perplexed why you or any one else does. I really don't know what bad you think could possibly come from people rolling longer than 12 weeks. I'm not altering the method at all besides giving more time to see results because I don't see any point in not giving it more time, I lose nothing by doing so. Anyways I don't care about this enough to continue to engage in a pointless circular argument with you, if you want to try and get everyone to stop rolling at 12 weeks knock yourself out.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

everybody roll

everybody

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wyk-AOAUuo

----------


## Tracy C

> Thought I typically don't like you tracey...


 Most of the guys here do not like to hear the truth and that is exactly why they, like you, do not like me.  Honestly, that's ya'lls problem.

Now spell my name right.  LOL

----------


## john2399

> friends how you do?
> 
> my roller arrives soon.,...
> 
> please god make it work....
> 
> Levon give us some pics...we hair starve haire...
> 
> good night brothers


 God don't care about hairloss.

----------


## JDW

> 3th session of 2.0mm dermarolling just like the clinical trial but only on the temple area and hairline, and i got a ****ing huge shedding on these area, is that a good or bad sign guyz?


 Are you using minoxidil with it? how long have you been using it if so?

----------


## DesperateOne

> 3th session of 2.0mm dermarolling just like the clinical trial but only on the temple area and hairline, and i got a ****ing huge shedding on these area, is that a good or bad sign guyz?


 How in the world are we able to know if you're shedding from anything if you haven't shared your story?

We need to know when you started to use finasteride(if you're on it), minoxidil or any other topical meant for MPB. 

Although, I have to mention that I had my hair loss relatively controlled and now that I started to derma roll, I have seen a massive shed in the last month, this is my second month, if that means anything.

----------


## Tracy C

This is my third Sunday night with this - did I mention that this hurts a lot.  I will soldier on through though to see what happens in four to six months.

----------


## StayThick

Guys I'm slowly seeing terminal hair in the corners of my hairline (areas where I vigorously apply) that I haven't seen in years. Im slowly getting very excited.

I obviously need much more regrowth to be satisfied and to gain the necessary  coverage, but clearly this has some substance to it. I will no doubt keep with this.

----------


## chimera

> Guys I'm slowly seeing terminal hair in the corners of my hairline (areas where I vigorously apply) that I haven't seen in years. Im slowly getting very excited.
> 
> I obviously need much more regrowth to be satisfied and to gain the necessary  coverage, but clearly this has some substance to it. I will no doubt keep with this.


 How many weeks have you been on it?

----------


## brunobald

> This is my third Sunday night with this - did I mention that this hurts a lot. I will soldier on through though to see what happens in four to six months.


 Tracy I have been hearing quite a lot of good reports regarding the derma pen and the fact that it is a lot less painfull. Im not sure how well it works with long hair though?

----------


## bibz

3 weeks on 2.0mm dermaroll, and 2+ years on minox

----------


## Bocaj

> Tracy I have been hearing quite a lot of good reports regarding the derma pen and the fact that it is a lot less painfull. Im not sure how well it works with long hair though?


 
I don't think it'd be a problem going in one direction or even a little back and forth or even circular motions. My hair is quite short at the moment so am not having any problems.

----------


## Conpecia

> Guys I'm slowly seeing terminal hair in the corners of my hairline (areas where I vigorously apply) that I haven't seen in years. Im slowly getting very excited.
> 
> I obviously need much more regrowth to be satisfied and to gain the necessary  coverage, but clearly this has some substance to it. I will no doubt keep with this.


 this is great news staythick, you're a trusted dude so it's good to hear that you're getting results. please take pics if things get interesting.

----------


## Kiwi

> Guys I'm slowly seeing terminal hair in the corners of my hairline (areas where I vigorously apply) that I haven't seen in years. Im slowly getting very excited.
> 
> I obviously need much more regrowth to be satisfied and to gain the necessary  coverage, but clearly this has some substance to it. I will no doubt keep with this.


 Does your head look all butchered like after a hair transplant right after you've done your rolling? I'd love to see some photos  :Smile:

----------


## Artha

> Does your head look all butchered like after a hair transplant right after you've done your rolling? I'd love to see some photos


 There a way to do it that leave no scar!

----------


## DesperateOne

Like in the movie saw, "Oh yes... there will be blood". 
Also, pain lots of pain!!!

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> There a way to do it that leave no scar!


 Rather than growing hair, micro needling is known to improve the appearance of scars rather than create new ones.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## gainspotter

I'm continuing with the rolling yet I'm tapering off minox as I hate the stuff. I'm going to see if just rolling and nizoral will have any results. Even maintaining what I have will be a result for me.

----------


## brunobald

Hellouser, as the starter of this thread are you seeing any results?

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser, as the starter of this thread are you seeing any results?


 Nope. And I'm on Kane's CB + Kirkland's Minoxidil 5&#37;.

----------


## Pentarou

Which week milestone are you at, Hell?

From lurking the various forums, this sounds like the Big 3, as in some people are responding quicker than others.

How heavily are you rolling, BTW? Some are hypothesising that if you really butcher your scalp, waiting 10-14 days between rolling sessions may be better. That's just conjecture at this stage, however.

----------


## hellouser

> Which week milestone are you at, Hell?
> 
> From lurking the various forums, this sounds like the Big 3, as in some people are responding quicker than others.
> 
> How heavily are you rolling, BTW? Some are hypothesising that if you really butcher your scalp, waiting 10-14 days between rolling sessions may be better. That's just conjecture at this stage, however.


 I've posted photos of my scalp after rolling. Theres some bleeding. Its not heavy but its definitely gone deep enough to bleed a bit. I'm pressing hard on my 1.5mm dermaroller ensuring it goes the full 1.5mm. Obviously, it won't go furhter than that since the needles aren't any longer.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

Hellouser, you're on both CB and Minoxidil, plus the derma roller, and you're not seeing ANY results? I don't know if I missed anything you've said against fin or dut, but have you tried these two? They could be what your treatment has been missing. I would never get on any treatment without fin or dut, that would be an uphill battle.

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser, you're on both CB and Minoxidil, plus the derma roller, and you're not seeing ANY results? I don't know if I missed anything you've said against fin or dut, but have you tried these two? They could be what your treatment has been missing. I would never get on any treatment without fin or dut, that would be an uphill battle.


 Never tried.

However, Merck just announced theyre cutting costs, 2.5 billion and cutting 8,000+ jobs.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle14621267/

That put a big smile on my face. All the more reason for a superior alternative to Fin.

I should mention though that any results I may have now are going to be slow to be seen as I endured a long and REALLY BAD shed for about 3+ months.

----------


## Bocaj

^ Thank you Obama.

----------


## hellouser

> ^ Thank you Obama.


 Out with the old, in with the new. Its not like 8,000 jobs will no longer be available. And why should treatments continue to exist when we should be pushing for CURES?

----------


## Bocaj

Oh it's worse than just 8,000 jobs..and it's been that way for years now. And going to part-time. 

I'm not a Merck/drug company fan at all btw.

----------


## Conpecia

just finished session lucky number 7. man, what an alpha treatment. really takes some jewels to see your scalp get shredded like that.

still no results but not expecting anything for a while.

----------


## Conpecia

by the way, bigentries, those photos in the study were taken at 8 months, not 3 months.

----------


## UK_

> ^ Thank you Obama.


 Oh yes because the one thing we need is more tax cuts for the American ultra-class.

The rich of America are living in a different universe of wealth and hyper-opulence, and no, it doesnt trickle down and make the poor better off, dont peddle that 80's myth.

----------


## bigentries

> by the way, bigentries, those photos in the study were taken at 8 months, not 3 months.


 Where does it says that? I can't find it anywhere in the study. The photos clearly state they are "baseline" and 12 weeks pictures

They only mention retrospective questioning, nothing about when the pics were taken

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Never tried.
> 
> However, Merck just announced theyre cutting costs, 2.5 billion and cutting 8,000+ jobs.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle14621267/
> 
> That put a big smile on my face. All the more reason for a superior alternative to Fin.
> 
> I should mention though that any results I may have now are going to be slow to be seen as I endured a long and REALLY BAD shed for about 3+ months.


 A slightly superior alternative to fin is dutasteride, in terms of results. But I know what you mean, the negative side effects. Why don't you give dutasteride a try? At least one 0.5mg pill a week, it's better than nothing at all. Then after a month you do 2 a week, then 3 a week, etc.

----------


## hellouser

> A slightly superior alternative to fin is dutasteride, in terms of results. But I know what you mean, the negative side effects. Why don't you give dutasteride a try? At least one 0.5mg pill a week, it's better than nothing at all. Then after a month you do 2 a week, then 3 a week, etc.


 Would rather give Fin a go... but once a week. Spencer Kobren is on it once a week. With the topical applications of CB, Minox and RU (gonna be back on it soon) as well as Dermarolling and Nizoral, I should do well.

----------


## Bocaj

> Oh yes because the one thing we need is more tax cuts for the American ultra-class.
> 
> The rich of America are living in a different universe of wealth and hyper-opulence, and no, it doesnt trickle down and make the poor better off, dont peddle that 80's myth.


 Waaaaaaaaaaaaa the rich. Waaaaaaaaa they only pay the vast majority of taxes. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  :Big Grin: 


Tax cuts for all. The 80's kicked ass.  Of course we're getting ours kicked now..when it should be Obama's.

----------


## greatjob!

> Oh yes because the one thing we need is more tax cuts for the American ultra-class.
> 
> The rich of America are living in a different universe of wealth and hyper-opulence, and no, it doesnt trickle down and make the poor better off, dont peddle that 80's myth.


 +1




> Waaaaaaaaaaaaa the rich. Waaaaaaaaa they only pay the vast majority of taxes. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
> 
> 
> Tax cuts for all. The 80's kicked ass. Of course we're getting ours kicked now..when it should be Obama's.


 Shut up and go turn on Hannity and let them feed you some mindless propaganda to perpetuate your delusion of reality. This is a hairloss forum not a "I'm losing my hair because of Obama" forum. Go back to blaming everything in the world on Obama, "OMG I stubbed my toe must be Obama and those damned Mexicans", and let the adults discuss hairloss.

----------


## Bocaj

> +1
> 
> 
> 
> Shut up and go turn on Hannity and let them feed you some mindless propaganda to perpetuate your delusion of reality. This is a hairloss forum not a "I'm losing my hair because of Obama" forum. Go back to blaming everything in the world on Obama, "OMG I stubbed my toe must be Obama and those damned Mexicans", and let the adults discuss hairloss.


 And there it is folks. Already telling me to shut up. It's either that or name calling.  And where did I say I'm losing my hair because of Obama? We're losing plenty of other things..but hair....?  Reread my Obama reference..and what I was responding to. K? 

But now that you bring it up..it's Obama blaming everything on everybody else.  :Cool:

----------


## Bocaj

> just finished session lucky number 7. man, what an alpha treatment. really takes some jewels to see your scalp get shredded like that.
> 
> still no results but not expecting anything for a while.


 So that's 7 weeks, right?

----------


## UK_

> Waaaaaaaaaaaaa the rich. Waaaaaaaaa *they only pay the vast majority of taxes.* Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 
> 
> 
> Tax cuts for all. The 80's kicked ass.  Of course we're getting ours kicked now..when it should be Obama's.


 Starbucks infested the UK years ago, they've singlehandedly wiped out thousands of local businesses (soft competitors) and put many thousands more out of work - despite all of their greed & destruction to what were prosperous and loved local high street businesses they've paid only £8.6 million in tax since they've been in the UK.

Your counter-argument is that we should allow these corporations to avoid tax b/c they provide jobs and economic growth blah blah blah - as if the demand for coffee would be non-existent without their presence, and allowing multi-nationals to avoid tax while they throat-fcuk local businesses who are required to pay tax by law is hardly fair now is it?

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> Starbucks infested the UK years ago, they've singlehandedly wiped out thousands of local businesses (soft competitors) and put many thousands more out of work - despite all of their greed & destruction to what were prosperous and loved local high street businesses they've paid only £8.6 million in tax since they've been in the UK.
> 
> Your counter-argument is that we should allow these corporations to avoid tax b/c they provide jobs and economic growth blah blah blah - as if the demand for coffee would be non-existent without their presence, and allowing multi-nationals to avoid tax while they throat-fcuk local businesses who are required to pay tax by law is hardly fair now is it?


 
the customer decides to drink starbucks because their coffee is deliciuos... whats evil about that? if mom and pop could make better coffee and do it as efficiently as starbucks, then the consumer would spend their money with the little guys... 


no one forces u or anyone else to support these evil" corporations. they are just really good at what hey do. If u think u can do it better, whats stopping you from starting a coffee company???

----------


## Chromeo

To be fair we're here to talk about dermarolling, lads. Couldn't give two sh1ts about your politics. Try to stay on topic.

----------


## UK_

> the customer decides to drink starbucks because their coffee is deliciuos... whats evil about that? if mom and pop could make better coffee and do it as efficiently as starbucks, then the consumer would spend their money with the little guys... 
> 
> 
> no one forces u or anyone else to support these “evil" corporations. they are just really good at what hey do. If u think u can do it better, whats stopping you from starting a coffee company???


 Not necessarily, if Starbucks have managed to wipe out all other competitors and driven the barriers of entry sky high disabling any (as you call them) mom & pop operations there's hardly going to be a great deal of diversity on the high street.

But my prime argument (which you obviously failed to read) is that their ability to create such barriers has been supported by their continued efforts to avoid paying any tax in the UK, which has only come to light recently after rigorous investigation... at... the expense of (guess who?)... the tax payer.

Mom & pop are long gone, good honest businesses were wiped off UK high streets years ago... Mom & Pop are now wage slaves for some universal demigod faceless corporate entity.  Here's to Anglo-American Neo Liberalism.

----------


## greatjob!

> To be fair we're here to talk about dermarolling, lads. Couldn't give two sh1ts about your politics. Try to stay on topic.


 Direct that comment to the guy who felt the need to inject his politics into the thread unsolicited:




> ^ Thank you Obama.

----------


## MackJames

> just finished session lucky number 7. man, what an alpha treatment. really takes some jewels to see your scalp get shredded like that.
> 
> still no results but not expecting anything for a while.


 Completed week six.  Wife thinks I'm crazy but is encouraging.  Haven't noticed a change yet but I'm patient.

----------


## Bocaj

> Direct that comment to the guy who felt the need to inject his politics into the thread unsolicited:


 A 3 word response to someone who felt the need to talk about job losses. So if we want to play this game- direct that comment to him...and then we can direct that comment to those who couldn't just ignore mine.....  :Wink: 

BTW..I don't even care for Starbucks..due to the CEO's politics. Which is pretty funny given what the complaint about them here is!

----------


## Bocaj

> Completed week six.  Wife thinks I'm crazy but is encouraging.  Haven't noticed a change yet but I'm patient.


 I think I'm going to go overboard right before the trick or treaters show up this Halloween. A little blood shouldn't scare them too much..right?

----------


## MackJames

> I think I'm going to go overboard right before the trick or treaters show up this Halloween. A little blood shouldn't scare them too much..right?


 

The kids will love it.  I'll be dressed as pinhead.

----------


## Conpecia

jacob,

yeah i'm at 7 weeks. definitely seeing some action at the receded hairline but that could just be minox. vellus hair has stayed about the same. i'm not going to give a legitimate evaluation until jan of 2014. i'm also on dut and have had a horrific shed the past 3 weeks so there's that...

----------


## UK_

> jacob,
> 
> yeah i'm at 7 weeks. definitely seeing some action at the receded hairline but that could just be minox. vellus hair has stayed about the same. i'm not going to give a legitimate evaluation until jan of 2014. i'm also on dut and have had a horrific shed the past 3 weeks so there's that...


 If you're on other meds, there's no way of telling if derma+minox is helping you.

----------


## greatjob!

> direct that comment to him...


 His post was in no way political, that was you, but you can tell yourself what ever you want to feed into your false narrative.

----------


## mmmcoffee

Might I suggest a results only thread? Getting hard to follow this thread with all of the bullshit in between

----------


## greatjob!

> Might I suggest a results only thread? Getting hard to follow this thread with all of the bullshit in between


 It would be a pretty short thread considering only one person, maybe two I can't remember, have posted pictures.

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> Might I suggest a results only thread? Getting hard to follow this thread with all of the bullshit in between


 The BS in between is needed. It's like a reality show.

I think as long as the in between discussions are about dermarolling, or how to enhance your results, it's fine.

----------


## Notcoolanymore

> Might I suggest a results only thread? Getting hard to follow this thread with all of the bullshit in between


 Yes.  I am curious to see the results people are getting.

----------


## Bocaj

> His post was in no way political, that was you, but you can tell yourself what ever you want to feed into your false narrative.


 
But his comment was not about dermarolling, was it?  :Wink:  Quit making things up, and your own rules, to feed into your own false narrative.

Now go ahead..pick out one part of that you want to quote and....

----------


## Bocaj

> Might I suggest a results only thread? Getting hard to follow this thread with all of the bullshit in between


 A new thread with something simple..like:

1. How long have you been 'rolling...
2. What length needles are you using...
3. How often are you 'rolling...
4. Which 'roller/stamp/pen are you using....
5. What results, if any..are you seeing...
6. What else are you using/applying...
etc

Not necessarily in that order...but it' be easier to follow imo.

----------


## greatjob!

> But his comment was not about dermarolling, was it?  Quit making things up, and your own rules, to feed into your own false narrative.
> 
> Now go ahead..pick out one part of that you want to quote and....


 His comment was related to hairloss, as in merck was loosing money and cutting jobs and since he hates propecia he was happy. Then you decided to inject your politics into a hairloss forum. That is not a false narrative. Discussion over. Although seeing how people like you usually have little appetite for facts I'm sure you will continue to claim you didn't needlessly inject politics into a hairloss forum.

----------


## Bocaj

His comment had NOTHING to do with the topic of dermarolling, which is what you kids were whining about. Just because my 3 word response was "political", doesn't change the fact that I was responding to a comment on jobs- not dermarolling. Got it? Then look at the responses I got. 

Shall we clutter this up all night? I'm finished- grow some hair!

----------


## hellouser

A weird thing happened a few days ago;

I noticed not a gray hair, but a completely TRANSPARENT hair. And not just a vellus short hair, but one thats been growing a while as it was about 1.5-2 inches in length.

I've no idea what this means, maybe someone can chime in?

----------


## greatjob!

> His comment had NOTHING to do with the topic of dermarolling, which is what you kids were whining about. Just because my 3 word response was "political", doesn't change the fact that I was responding to a comment on jobs- not dermarolling. Got it? Then look at the responses I got. 
> 
> Shall we clutter this up all night? I'm finished- grow some hair!


 No I was whining about you injecting politics. There is no place for it here, it just devolves into exactly what is happening. This is tbt 90% of the posts here are off topic.

I'm glad you're dumb..I mean done.

----------


## Bocaj

> A weird thing happened a few days ago;
> 
> I noticed not a gray hair, but a completely TRANSPARENT hair. And not just a vellus short hair, but one thats been growing a while as it was about 1.5-2 inches in length.
> 
> I've no idea what this means, maybe someone can chime in?


 Maybe I should know this..but what color is your hair normally?  I guess it would really seem strange if you had dark hair..but it's pretty common to see "transparent" hair when it's first growing- hasn't gone terminal. 

Edit..here's an example from ***: 


> After 3months of Minoxidil treatment i was getting regrowth, which could be best described as weak and transparent. However after 6months a lot of this hair turned thicker. I was on Finasteride as well.


 I'm guessing for that particular hair of yours it's just taking longer...?

----------


## PatientlyWaiting

> A new thread with something simple..like:
> 
> 1. How long have you been 'rolling...
> 2. What length needles are you using...
> 3. How often are you 'rolling...
> 4. Which 'roller/stamp/pen are you using....
> 5. What results, if any..are you seeing...
> 6. What else are you using/applying...
> etc
> ...


 So go make the thread then, and enforce your rules of "No results, no post".

----------


## Bocaj

^You must have me confused with someone else...on the "No results, no post" thing.....

----------


## hellouser

> Maybe I should know this..but what color is your hair normally?  I guess it would really seem strange if you had dark hair..but it's pretty common to see "transparent" hair when it's first growing- hasn't gone terminal. 
> 
> Edit..here's an example from ***: 
> 
> I'm guessing for that particular hair of yours it's just taking longer...?


 I don't know, because that was already growing for a while, like I said, it was about 1.5 inches. So, either I never noticed it... or it just turned transparent.

----------


## Bocaj

I recall polar bears- their hair is actually clear/transparent..but something about the way light hits it etc..it appears white. I noticed stray ones of mine look a bit transparent. When they're all together it doesn't look that way. 

No, I'm not a polar bear.

----------


## rogering

I have to disagree, it's not about needle length causing injury, it's about getting the minoxidil past the startum corneum (the skin's natural barrier) and the needles stimulating healthy blood flow, exfoliating and massaging increasing scalp health. This whole 'no pain, no gain' business is very last century!!  

The biggest problem with using needles 1mm or greater is that they cause excessive pain and bleeding that inhibits the user from effectively treating themselves, it's as simple as that.  The other downside is that the longer the needle the quicker they become blunt, a 1.5mm needle will only have a 4-6 uses before it becomes too blunt, a 1mm needle 1 - 2 months use max.

In addition it has been shown that skin needling by itself stimulates hair regrowth in the temple and hairline areas, minoxidil only stimulates hair regrowth in the crown area.

I have been using a 0.75mm needle daily for over 2 years with minoxidil 5% and copper peptides.  I am really happy and my roller lasts for 12 months.

----------


## MackJames

> I recall polar bears- their hair is actually clear/transparent..but something about the way light hits it etc..it appears white. I noticed stray ones of mine look a bit transparent. When they're all together it doesn't look that way. 
> 
> No, I'm not a polar bear.


 
I'm nearly completely white/grey haired.  All my siblings went white early as did my father.  My wife comments on my hair being almost clear.

----------


## walrus

> I have to disagree, it's not about needle length causing injury, it's about getting the minoxidil past the startum corneum
> 
> In addition it has been shown that skin needling by itself stimulates hair regrowth in the temple and hairline areas


 Do you have any proof for these statements?

----------


## Conpecia

> If you're on other meds, there's no way of telling if derma+minox is helping you.


 if i regain all of my hairline i'm pretty sure that's not just dutasteride. but if results aren't incredible then yes you're right. either way people need to put their regimens up honestly for objective data.

----------


## chimera

> I have to disagree, it's not about needle length causing injury, it's about getting the minoxidil past the startum corneum (the skin's natural barrier) and the needles stimulating healthy blood flow, exfoliating and massaging increasing scalp health. This whole 'no pain, no gain' business is very last century!!  
> 
> The biggest problem with using needles 1mm or greater is that they cause excessive pain and bleeding that inhibits the user from effectively treating themselves, it's as simple as that.  The other downside is that the longer the needle the quicker they become blunt, a 1.5mm needle will only have a 4-6 uses before it becomes too blunt, a 1mm needle 1 - 2 months use max.
> 
> In addition it has been shown that skin needling by itself stimulates hair regrowth in the temple and hairline areas, minoxidil only stimulates hair regrowth in the crown area.
> 
> I have been using a 0.75mm needle daily for over 2 years with minoxidil 5% and copper peptides.  I am really happy and my roller lasts for 12 months.


 You  should take a minute to read the study we're following. 

It is *precisely* about causing injury. We *NEED* to make damage (at least a certain, controled amount). We don't do this to create canals for minoxidil to get throuth the stratum corneum. We do it because we want *wnt*, but to release this protein we need to activate the healing process of the follicles, and the only way to do it is to cause some damage first. For us, causing trauma and * giving the tissue time enough to reppair itself is very important.*

----------


## Chromeo

> I have to disagree, it's not about needle length causing injury, it's about getting the minoxidil past the startum corneum (the skin's natural barrier) and the needles stimulating healthy blood flow, exfoliating and massaging increasing scalp health. This whole 'no pain, no gain' business is very last century!!


 Wrong. Completely different theory.

----------


## greatjob!

> I have to disagree, it's not about needle length causing injury, it's about getting the minoxidil past the startum corneum (the skin's natural barrier) and the needles stimulating healthy blood flow, exfoliating and massaging increasing scalp health. This whole 'no pain, no gain' business is very last century!!  
> 
> The biggest problem with using needles 1mm or greater is that they cause excessive pain and bleeding that inhibits the user from effectively treating themselves, it's as simple as that.  The other downside is that the longer the needle the quicker they become blunt, a 1.5mm needle will only have a 4-6 uses before it becomes too blunt, a 1mm needle 1 - 2 months use max.
> 
> In addition it has been shown that skin needling by itself stimulates hair regrowth in the temple and hairline areas, minoxidil only stimulates hair regrowth in the crown area.
> 
> I have been using a 0.75mm needle daily for over 2 years with minoxidil 5% and copper peptides.  I am really happy and my roller lasts for 12 months.


 So much wrong in one place

----------


## cloud9

Hi guys. I have been reading the posts about dermarolling . I have a dermaroller with the 1.50 mm needles so I may give this a try once a week . 

Here is a tread from immortalhair that may help  with rolling .      http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...ing-with-20-Hi guys 
  A guy their is using a scalp peel with a 20 % glycolic acid and getting great results . He applies the peel once every day and leaves it on over night . Shampoos it off then uses a scalp massager to take off the dry skin . His before and after pictures are amazing . Take a look

----------


## Axel

> I have to disagree, it's not about needle length causing injury, it's about getting the minoxidil past the startum corneum (the skin's natural barrier) and the needles stimulating healthy blood flow, exfoliating and massaging increasing scalp health. This whole 'no pain, no gain' business is very last century!!  
> 
> The biggest problem with using needles 1mm or greater is that they cause excessive pain and bleeding that inhibits the user from effectively treating themselves, it's as simple as that.  The other downside is that the longer the needle the quicker they become blunt, a 1.5mm needle will only have a 4-6 uses before it becomes too blunt, a 1mm needle 1 - 2 months use max.
> 
> In addition it has been shown that skin needling by itself stimulates hair regrowth in the temple and hairline areas, minoxidil only stimulates hair regrowth in the crown area.
> 
> I have been using a 0.75mm needle daily for over 2 years with minoxidil 5% and copper peptides.  I am really happy and my roller lasts for 12 months.


 OMG what a noob... Dude start reading the threads from the first page or you risk looking like a retard...

----------


## chimera

The guy in those pics did not used glycolic acid, he used salicylic acid (the guy who started that thread is using glycolic acid, but he is not the one in that pic).

Great results (if they are real). Wonder what's the difference between glycolic acid and salicylic acid and which option is better...

----------


## clandestine

cloud9; that is very, very interesting. I've read through thr entirety of the tread.

The OP's results look good, though I wish there were a before (and of better quality).

http://i75.servimg.com/u/f75/17/41/27/64/before10.png

This result that another user posted, salicylic acid peel, shows tremendous growth if true.

----------


## Bocaj

> Hi guys. I have been reading the posts about dermarolling . I have a dermaroller with the 1.50 mm needles so I may give this a try once a week . 
> 
> Here is a tread from immortalhair that may help  with rolling .      http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...ing-with-20-Hi guys 
>   A guy their is using a scalp peel with a 20 % glycolic acid and getting great results . He applies the peel once every day and leaves it on over night . Shampoos it off then uses a scalp massager to take off the dry skin . His before and after pictures are amazing . Take a look


 Ha..some of us think those pictures are actually of IH himself. Notice he took his own pictures down from his website. As I recall..the site those pics are from also went into a # of things IH has said and/or uses. Or are they from yet another site???

----------


## fred970

This is IH's hair, I recognize it too.

Those website and forum are a complete scam and should be shut down.

----------


## Bocaj

And he's still plagiarizing. Anyone feel free to pm me(from anywhere) for the latest example. Or the latest example I've found..with just a quick search. 

Now back to dermarolling.....

----------


## fred970

Can't we do something to report that website?

----------


## chimera

> This is IH's hair, I recognize it too.
> 
> Those website and forum are a complete scam and should be shut down.


 No idea if it works or not, but how would glycolic acid be a scam?...

It's not like the guy from that thread is selling it, as you can find it  almost everywhere...

----------


## Bocaj

He's not talking about that part of the thread. It's the site that was linked to there..the guy behind it..and the pictures in that thread.

----------


## clandestine

Ok, so you feel the original poster is lying as well?




> After a while without posting in the forum, now I have something interesting to share with you :-)
> 
> First of all, I'll show what motivated me to do this experiment (found in an acne forum):
> 
> ''The pathogenesis of male-pattern-baldness (MPB) is the same as acne. The first step in acne is a condition called follicular-hyperkeratinization or hyperkeratosis. Simply put, this means excess skin production inside and around the hair-follicle. The next step is caused by excess sebum production, followed by P.Acnes infestation of the pilosebaceous-follicle, with subsequent inflammation. So to summarize, MPB, just like acne, is caused by four main factors: (1) follicular-hyperkeratinization, (2) excess sebum production, (3) P.Acnes, and (4) inflammation [1].
> 
> Free-IGF-1 (insulin-like-growth-factor-1) stimulates the proliferation of keratinocytes (skin cells below the scalp). As the keratinocytes mature, they migrate to the top of the scalp and become what is known as corneocytes. If all goes well, the corneocytes are supposed to be shed off the scalp in a process called apoptosis. The shedding of corneocytes or the apoptosis of corneocytes, is under the influence of IGFBP-3 (insulin-like-growth-factor-binding-protein-3) and endogenous retinoids. In men with male-pattern-baldness, they have excess free-IGF-1 and not enough IGFBP-3 [2]. The result of this is hyperkeratinization; too much skin production, and not enough skin exfoliation. This causes the hair-follicle to be blocked by excess skin. Free-IGF-1 is required for keratinocyte proliferation in humans [3] and too much IGF-1 results in hyperkeratosis [4]. 
> 
> So, in order to reverse hyperkeratosis, exfoliating the scalp is needed. Using glycolic-acid topically is suggested. Glycolic-acid is what's called an alpha-hydroxy-acid. Alpha-hydroxy-acids are shown to diminish corneocyte cohesion, induce exfoliation and reverse hyperkeratosis. This should promote regrowth.
> ...


 As someone else mentioned, he couldn't be selling anything; he's using glycolic acid, which can be bought anywhere.

And is apparently seeing terminal hair growth below his temporal recession.

----------


## Bocaj

No, I never said anything about the original poster. Unless those are HIS pictures in that thread.  I'm referring to the pictures that are shown in the thread..not any links to any if there are any...

Nor did I or anyone else that I can see say that the OP was selling anything.

----------


## rogering

> So much wrong in one place


 

Interesting.......I am unaware of any scientific reason or evidence as to how injuring your scalp (or in this case your dermis by using long needles) can stimulate hair regrowth.  The injury to the dermis caused by skin needling stimulates collagen and elastin production to infill indented scars and improve skin texture and tone. There is no proof or reasoning to suggest that injuring dermis can stimulate hair regrowth.  Rather skin needling stimulates hair regrowth by improved circulation via massage and scalp health via the stimulation of healthy exfoliation. 

In fact, as the bulb or base of the hair follicle (where hair growth occurs and blood vessels attach to the hair follicle) is located in the lower dermis above the blood vessels in our skin there is great potential for longer needles to damage the hair follicle thereby actually inhibiting hair regrowth.

It is for this reason that shorter needles, 0.75mm in length, are able to pierce the stratum corneum and the epidermal/dermal junction enabling a radical increase in the absorption of product to the hair follicle whilst ensuring that the base of the follicle is protected.

Skin needling stimulates hair regrowth by -

* radically increasing the absorption of product
* massaging the scalp increasing blood flow to the scalp and hair follicles
* gently exfoliating the scalp promoting scalp health

It is the beauty of the process, it's simplicity.

----------


## clandestine

Aright,

----------


## clandestine

Alright, well it looks interesting is all I'm saying.

----------


## cloud9

> Hi guys. I have been reading the posts about dermarolling . I have a dermaroller with the 1.50 mm needles so I may give this a try once a week . 
> 
> Here is a tread from immortalhair that may help  with rolling .      http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t...ing-with-20-Hi guys 
>   A guy their is using a scalp peel with a 20 % glycolic acid and getting great results . He applies the peel once every day and leaves it on over night . Shampoos it off then uses a scalp massager to take off the dry skin . His before and after pictures are amazing . Take a look


 I made a mistake posting this . Read the tread from the very first post on page one .He is the one with the good results .

----------


## fred970

> No idea if it works or not, but how would glycolic acid be a scam?...
> 
> It's not like the guy from that thread is selling it, as you can find it  almost everywhere...


 This guy also offers 99$ Skype consultations for hair loss on his forum. It allows him to advice people to try more bogus methods to regrow their hair.

----------


## Bocaj

> This guy also offers 99$ Skype consultations for hair loss on his forum. It allows him to advice people to try more bogus methods to regrow their hair.


 Just so ppl know...Fred is referring to Immortalhair there...not the OP of that thread.

----------


## chimera

I don't understand.... is immortal-hair a forum or a person?

----------


## Bocaj

> I don't understand.... is immortal-hair a forum or a person?


 Ha..it's both. Although he changed his nick to Causticsymmetry for whatever reason. Maybe it had something to do with the Immortalhair-plagiarizing link....

Back to dermarolling...I've decided to rotate the pen with my .25 vibrating dermaroller. Give the gouging my scalp a bit more of a break while still giving it a workout in-between- it does get all red and numb from using it.

----------


## greatjob!

> Interesting.......I am unaware of any scientific reason or evidence as to how injuring your scalp (or in this case your dermis by using long needles) can stimulate hair regrowth.


 
"Hi I'm Dr. George Cotsarelis, have we met?"




> The injury to the dermis caused by skin needling stimulates collagen and elastin production to infill indented scars and improve skin texture and tone. There is no proof or reasoning to suggest that injuring dermis can stimulate hair regrowth.  Rather skin needling stimulates hair regrowth by improved circulation via massage and scalp health via the stimulation of healthy exfoliation. 
> 
> In fact, as the bulb or base of the hair follicle (where hair growth occurs and blood vessels attach to the hair follicle) is located in the lower dermis above the blood vessels in our skin there is great potential for longer needles to damage the hair follicle thereby actually inhibiting hair regrowth.
> 
> It is for this reason that shorter needles, 0.75mm in length, are able to pierce the stratum corneum and the epidermal/dermal junction enabling a radical increase in the absorption of product to the hair follicle whilst ensuring that the base of the follicle is protected.
> 
> Skin needling stimulates hair regrowth by -
> 
> * radically increasing the absorption of product
> ...


 
The entire basis of this thread is this study:

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat

Which you clearly did not read. For like the 1 millionth time this is not about absorption, it is about wounding to up-regulate growth factors that stimulate hair growth. This is what Dr. Cots and follica's entire work is based on.

From the intorduction of the stury above which is found on the first page of this thread:




> *Introduction:* Dermal papilla (DP) is the site of expression of various hair growth related genes. Various researches have demonstrated the underlying importance of Wnt proteins and wound growth factors in stimulating DP associated stem cells. Microneedling works by stimulation of stem cells and inducing activation of growth factors.

----------


## Chromeo

Lol, gotta love this Rogering character. It's like he just stepped out of the Delorean from 1985 and doesn't have a clue what's going on here.

----------


## hellouser

> lol, gotta love this rogering character. *it's like he just stepped out of the delorean from 1985 and doesn't have a clue what's going on here.*


 lmao!

----------


## Conpecia

> Lol, gotta love this Rogering character. It's like he just stepped out of the Delorean from 1985 and doesn't have a clue what's going on here.


 a new contender emerges for post of the year.


seriously, i wish guys would just read the first post of a thread.

----------


## walrus

> Lol, gotta love this Rogering character. It's like he just stepped out of the Delorean from 1985 and doesn't have a clue what's going on here.


  :Big Grin:

----------


## ResearchNeverfails

It would be wise for somebody in this community to use the dermaroller in conjunction with abstinence. Just a thought.

----------


## Pentarou

How would it help anyone to combine dermarolling with a highly alcoholic green wormwood-based beverage of Swiss origin?

----------


## LevonHelms

> How would it help anyone to combine dermarolling with a highly alcoholic green wormwood-based beverage of Swiss origin?


 Now there's a combination I could get behind!

----------


## bigentries

> How would it help anyone to combine dermarolling with a highly alcoholic green wormwood-based beverage of Swiss origin?


 How many of the Impressionists were bald? they were addicted to that crap

----------


## greatjob!

Unless your using abstinence to dull the pain I don't see how it would help with hairloss. I've been having a few drinks before rolling to kill the pain and it works pretty well.

----------


## Tracy C

Dang this thread is getting long.  It's taking quite a while for me to catch up on what folks are saying.




> However, Merck just announced theyre cutting costs, 2.5 billion and cutting 8,000+ jobs.
> 
> That put a big smile on my face. All the more reason for a superior alternative to Fin.


 8,000+ people losing their jobs puts a smile on your face?  You are evil.






> In addition it has been shown that skin needling by itself stimulates hair regrowth in the temple and hairline areas, minoxidil only stimulates hair regrowth in the crown area.


 Hmmm that's not very accurate...  The proof about needling has yet to be confirmed.  Minoxidil works wherever there are hair follicles that can be repaired and restarted.  Usually for men that is the vertex and mid-anterior.  For women it's all over the head.  The male hairline and temples are different simply due to other factors associated with being male.

----------


## hellouser

> 8,000+ people losing their jobs puts a smile on your face?  You are evil.


 I see context is not your strong suit. Not surprising.

----------


## baldybald

hey hellouser here am back, and did you get any hair from your stupid dermaroller? i do not think so, you only get sh*t !!

----------


## greatjob!

> hey hellouser here am back, and did you get any hair from your stupid dermaroller? i do not think so, you only get sh*t !!


 Whatever mental problem you're suffering from the meds aren't helping, you should probably double the dose...

----------


## Koga

hey guys, so it seems like some of us are getting really thick peach fuzz growing from the dermarolling. For me some of them are turning into terminal hairs, but at a very slow rate. Anyone here have any ideas or theories on how to help push vellus hairs towards terminal hairs?

----------


## Chromeo

> hey guys, so it seems like some of us are getting really thick peach fuzz growing from the dermarolling. For me some of them are turning into terminal hairs, but at a very slow rate. Anyone here have any ideas or theories on how to help push vellus hairs towards terminal hairs?


 Keep rolling.

----------


## Koga

> Keep rolling.


 very helpful.

----------


## pat

> hey guys, so it seems like some of us are getting really thick peach fuzz growing from the dermarolling. For me some of them are turning into terminal hairs, but at a very slow rate. Anyone here have any ideas or theories on how to help push vellus hairs towards terminal hairs?


 what needle size dermaroller are you using?

----------


## 534623

> Anyone here have any ideas or theories on *how to help push vellus hairs towards terminal hairs?*


 Sure ...

Try to write a proper DNA code for the proper re-programming and activation of *your* current DNA-programming. That's all.

----------


## baldybald

> Whatever mental problem you're suffering from the meds aren't helping, you should probably double the dose...


 oh sorry, then you got some shit on your head  :Wink:

----------


## chimera

> hey hellouser here am back, and did you get any hair from your stupid dermaroller? i do not think so, you only get sh*t !!


 You sick bastard... why would it give you pleasure to know this is not working for any of us?...

----------


## greatjob!

> oh sorry, then you got some shit on your head


 I'm not sure if that's an insult or not, because it makes zero sense whatsoever. Good work.  :Wink:

----------


## Conpecia

> You sick bastard... why would it give you pleasure to know this is not working for any of us?...


 hey it gives me pleasure to know baldybald is a hideous bald f*ck, does that make me a sick bastard?

----------


## greatjob!

> hey it gives me pleasure to know baldybald is a hideous bald f*ck, does that make me a sick bastard?


 No some people deserve it

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> hey hellouser here am back, and did you get any hair from your stupid dermaroller? i do not think so, you only get sh*t !!


 my hair is most definitely improved since addding the 1.5mm roller, GFYS. what do u do to positively contribute to the hairloss community?

----------


## greatjob!

> what do u do to positively contribute to the hairloss community?


 He makes us all look vastly more intelligent with his incoherent rants.

----------


## clandestine

> my hair is most definitely improved since addding the 1.5mm roller, GFYS. what do u do to positively contribute to the hairloss community?


 What's your current entire regimen KoNW4?

----------


## baldybald

you guys still have no idea what baldness and hair loss mean and this what makes me angry. hairloss is a beast that companies are spending MILLIONS of dollars to find a cure or a treatment and you guys want to treat yourself by dermaroller ? i mean think about it, it may be useful for people who lost his hair because of maybe lack of vitamins or something easy to solve, but not when your hormone destroy your hair!!! please think about it, this thread is taking too much attention!!

----------


## greatjob!

> you guys still have no idea what baldness and hair loss mean and this what makes me angry. hairloss is a beast that companies are spending MILLIONS of dollars to find a cure or a treatment and you guys want to treat yourself by dermaroller ? i mean think about it, it may be useful for people who lost his hair because of maybe lack of vitamins or something easy to solve, but not when your hormone destroy your hair!!! please think about it, this thread is taking too much attention!!


 You know what makes me mad? People who talk about things when it is clear they are completely out of their depth (i.e. you).

----------


## baldybald

> You know what makes me mad? People who talk about things when it is clear they are completely out of their depth (i.e. you).


 so are you telling me it is working for you, am sure it is not  :Smile:

----------


## greatjob!

> so are you telling me it is working for you, am sure it is not


 I'm not sure, it hasn't been very long. Am I expecting this to work miracles? No, but it is almost free and there is solid science behind the principle of wounding leading to up-regulation of growth factors leading to follicle neogenesis. You know the science that every single one of those "million dollar" companies work is based on, however, science is clearly beyond your scope of comprehension so I will stop before your brain gets hurt.

p.s.- If this thread is getting too much attention and we are all stupid, then what are you doing here?

----------


## baldybald

> I'm not sure, it hasn't been very long. Am I expecting this to work miracles? No, but it is almost free and there is solid science behind the principle of wounding leading to up-regulation of growth factors leading to follicle neogenesis. You know the science that every single one of those "million dollar" companies work is based on, however, science is clearly beyond your scope of comprehension so I will stop before your brain gets hurt.
> 
> p.s.- If this thread is getting too much attention and we are all stupid, then what are you doing here?


 i did not call anyone stupid. i know how hard it is when you put a lot of hope in something and turn to you that is not working. people talked about this thread in 2007 and if it worked everybody would use it.
Greatjob, sorry if i discourage anyone here. But remember i will come back to you exactly after 3 months to remind you. good luck !!

----------


## Koga

> you guys still have no idea what baldness and hair loss mean and this what makes me angry. hairloss is a beast that companies are spending MILLIONS of dollars to find a cure or a treatment and you guys want to treat yourself by dermaroller ? i mean think about it, it may be useful for people who lost his hair because of maybe lack of vitamins or something easy to solve, but not when your hormone destroy your hair!!! please think about it, this thread is taking too much attention!!


 Lol those companies better hurry up because my hairs are slowly growing back

----------


## greatjob!

> people talked about this thread in 2007 and if it worked everybody would use it.


 The pervious threads were focused on absorption

----------


## LevonHelms

> you guys still have no idea what baldness and hair loss mean and this what makes me angry. hairloss is a beast that companies are spending MILLIONS of dollars to find a cure or a treatment and you guys want to treat yourself by dermaroller ? i mean think about it, it may be useful for people who lost his hair because of maybe lack of vitamins or something easy to solve, but not when your hormone destroy your hair!!! please think about it, this thread is taking too much attention!!


 Me jump on and say angry at too much a focus on a derm, when clearly millions are invested with a company. Why you try a dermarolla? Me simple caveman, confused by bright lights and loud noises!!!??

----------


## fred970

What? We still don't have clear before/after pictures and it's October? I think we can safely say this does not work now.

----------


## StayThick

> What? We still don't have clear before/after pictures and it's October? I think we can safely say this does not work now.


 I've been telling you Neanderthals that it doesn't work. Doesn't mean it wasn't worth a shot though. I'm still doing it 1x a week but I know it's not doing jack.

With treatments for baldness moving at a snails pace, I don't have any other options at the moment outside of a transplant. Sucks.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> What's your current entire regimen KoNW4?


 

Roll 1.5mm once a week minox foam 2x a day, even roll days. just started CB @ 1% a few days ago. thats it. in my before pics, i had been not using minox very regularly. I was pretty strict in use for years, then got real lazy, so there was a minox shed happening.

----------


## Pentarou

> I've been telling you Neanderthals that it doesn't work. Doesn't mean it wasn't worth a shot though. I'm still doing it 1x a week but I know it's not doing jack.
> 
> With treatments for baldness moving at a snails pace, I don't have any other options at the moment outside of a transplant. Sucks.


 I haven't tried rolling yet, and most likely will never do, because I don't think that it _really_ works either. Might be one of those things that could work in theory, but not in practice.

Strong evidence, and I'd buzz down to a 0 and go at it full-on, with all the bloodshed it entails, now, nope.

----------


## chimera

> I've been telling you Neanderthals that it doesn't work.


 Don't call us neanderthals. You should be happy we're willing to be the guinea pigs bleeding our damn scalps trying to find a treatment that works for us and for you all ungratefull pricks.

Maybe this won't work. We are just trying to do the best we can with the little info and resources we got. What did you expect us to do?. Take your word over a published study?. Even if in the end you're right, as I said, we have to do everything we can with as little as we have. We had to try this.

----------


## clandestine

> I haven't tried rolling yet, and most likely will never do, because I don't think that it _really_ works either. Might be one of those things that could work in theory, but not in practice.
> 
> Strong evidence, and I'd buzz down to a 0 and go at it full-on, with all the bloodshed it entails, now, nope.


 


> 


 ?

----------


## baldybald

> What? We still don't have clear before/after pictures and it's October? I think we can safely say this does not work now.


 Thanks bro , hope they understand that soon  :Smile:

----------


## greatjob!

> Thanks bro , hope they understand that soon


 Since you guys are so sure this won't work, why are you still trolling this thread? You don't think this thread should even exist and none of us want you here so just leave, us rolling our head affects your live in no way so GTFO!

----------


## baldybald

> Since you guys are so sure this won't work, why are you still trolling this thread? You don't think this thread should even exist and none of us want you here so just leave, us rolling our head affects your live in no way so GTFO!


 Yes you are right, good luck bro

----------


## Knockin on NW4

u guys are so naive to discredit this treatment modality.  is it the cure? of course not, but its a great addition to a multiple angled approach to treating hairloss. plus it is by far the cheapest addition to any regimen.

----------


## Pentarou

OK, I'm a *lot* more convinced of the merits of this technique after seeing Knockin's photos.

----------


## Californication

> I've been telling you Neanderthals that it doesn't work. Doesn't mean it wasn't worth a shot though. I'm still doing it 1x a week but I know it's not doing jack.
> 
> With treatments for baldness moving at a snails pace, I don't have any other options at the moment outside of a transplant. Sucks.


 What happened to your post 5 DAYS ago that said you were slowly seeing some terminal hair?

No offense dude because I like you and we're in somewhat similar situations I feel with not being able to tolerate fin, but you're either a bad judge of whether something is working or are being overly emotional right now (hope its the emotional one, trust me I know that we all have our bad days)

----------


## StayThick

> What happened to your post 5 DAYS ago that said you were slowly seeing some terminal hair?
> 
> No offense dude because I like you and we're in somewhat similar situations I feel with not being able to tolerate fin, but you're either a bad judge of whether something is working or are being overly emotional right now (hope its the emotional one, trust me I know that we all have our bad days)


 I think it's the latter man. This whole balding thing just takes a toll on me.

As a far dermarolling, I mentioned I still do it because I believe it helps. The problem is that it's not helping enough. It's not improving my hairline/overall scalp density enough for me to say it 100% works and can yield results. Then again, nothing currently in the market can, so I'm just screwed either way.

What I have noticed from dermarolling is terminal hair sprouting in my hairline. I just need effing more of it man. Cosmetically, these dark hair sprouts that are forming don't mean much to me unless more sprout and I can achieve at least somewhat ok density in the area. I guess its hair greed, but it's just frustrating poking holes in my skin while biting on a sock, just to grow some terminal hairs along the hairline. I need MORE! I will continue...just hope my my situation can improve.

----------


## StayThick

> Don't call us neanderthals. You should be happy we're willing to be the guinea pigs bleeding our damn scalps trying to find a treatment that works for us and for you all ungratefull pricks.
> 
> Maybe this won't work. We are just trying to do the best we can with the little info and resources we got. What did you expect us to do?. Take your word over a published study?. Even if in the end you're right, as I said, we have to do everything we can with as little as we have. We had to try this.


 Chimera, easy there killer. I have been poking holes in my scalp with a freaking sock jammed in my mouth before you even know this study existed, let alone dermarolling. I have more experience with this application then 90% of those on this forum as I have been doing it for almost 8 months now.

It can help, the problem is to what degree? Those doing this need to tailor their expectations. That's been MY ISSUE. I keep getting frustrating with the lack of treatments available and the pace of when future treatments will come about, that I start putting all my eggs in this dermarolling basket. Foolish.

I said I still do it 1x a week because I think there is SOME value to the treatment. I just know now not to expect much from it, maybe maintenance at best. For those seeking immense regrowth I truly hope you have a back-up plan. That's all I'm saying.

----------


## Tracy C

> I see context is not your strong suit. Not surprising.


 It is truly pathetic how clueless you are.  It amazes me that someone like you started a thread about something that might actually have some merit.

----------


## Tracy C

> ...this thread is taking too much attention!!


 I wouldn't say that, though there is a bit too much crap going on.  The idea this thread is about testing deserves to be tested.  Though I personally feel that far too few are actually trying to duplicate the pilot study, I am happy that anybody is trying to duplicate it.

----------


## Conpecia

tracy no offense but you're on the proverbial wrong side of town. no way you know as much about this type of experimental stuff as hellouser. while you're busy trumpeting the big 3 he's researching hair loss in more complex ways. which is why his name is on the first post of this massive thread and not yours. simple as that.

----------


## Tracy C

> What? We still don't have clear before/after pictures and it's October? I think we can safely say this does not work now.


 Not really - and for the following reasons:

1) Not everyone started when this thread started.  Some of us could not start right away.  For example I am only on my fourth week.

2) Not everyone is trying to duplicate the pilot study.  Most are doing their own thing.  You need to wait for the group that is trying to duplicate the pilot study.  If no one in that group gets results, then it is safe to say it does not work.

3) Realistically it would likely take at least four but more likely six months before anyone will know if this is working.  Those who are expecting results in a matter of weeks are going to be disappointed.

----------


## Tracy C

> Stuff...


 I do not trumpet "the big 3".  I trumpet good quality evidence.  There is little to no good quality evidence for these experimental treatments.  If there was, I would would trumpet about it.

----------


## Conpecia

anyways back ot... i'm starting to think we should be adding minox on the days we roll, since most of the guys getting results are doing so. thoughts?

----------


## Californication

> I think it's the latter man. This whole balding thing just takes a toll on me.
> 
> As a far dermarolling, I mentioned I still do it because I believe it helps. The problem is that it's not helping enough. It's not improving my hairline/overall scalp density enough for me to say it 100% works and can yield results. Then again, nothing currently in the market can, so I'm just screwed either way.
> 
> What I have noticed from dermarolling is terminal hair sprouting in my hairline. I just need effing more of it man. Cosmetically, these dark hair sprouts that are forming don't mean much to me unless more sprout and I can achieve at least somewhat ok density in the area. I guess its hair greed, but it's just frustrating poking holes in my skin while biting on a sock, just to grow some terminal hairs along the hairline. I need MORE! I will continue...just hope my my situation can improve.


 Right there with you man, I remember you posting that because you're one of the good, reliable ones around here.

----------


## hellouser

> I do not trumpet "the big 3".  I trumpet good quality evidence.  There is little to no good quality evidence for these experimental treatments.  If there was, I would would trumpet about it.


 My god, please STOP it with the 'good quality' crap. 

That is such a vague and meaningless demand. What the hell is supposed to be 'good quality' ??? I saw in another thread you wanted to see 'good quality' photos with a 'good quality' camera. I have a $3,000 dollar dSLR camera at home with a Canon L lens that is 'good quality' but for our intent and purposes I can replicate photos that meet our desired expectations with a regular point and shoot camera for $200 dollars or less. Its not the 'good quality' camera, its me knowing how to work with a set of tools available to achieve the results.

So tell us, what is it *exactly* you want to see from evidence? 

I'll give you a head start: evenly lit subjects with diffused lighting similar to overcast outdoor light, f/8 or higher aperture from the lens to have most of everything IN focus (no bokeh), a fast enough shutter speed to NOT allow any motion blur to give the illusion of 'double hair' and the same practice for before and after photos with the same hair style and length taken at the same angles for comparison between one and the other.

----------


## chimera

Hey, hellouser, have you seen princessRambo's results back at ***?...

I know he is not just using the dermaroller... but still, to achive that kind of regrowth without fin...wow...

----------


## StayThick

> anyways back ot... i'm starting to think we should be adding minox on the days we roll, since most of the guys getting results are doing so. thoughts?


 I apply Minox immediately following my dermarolling session. I tried waiting 24 hours for about 2 months and felt it did nothing but slow my progress and made no sense to me personally considering the success I've had with Rogaine.

When I started noticing "some" improvement in my hairline was when I applied MINOX immediately following a serious derma-rolling session.

Note: Fortunately, I did not notice any added/increased side effects from doing this. That's just my personal experience. Thought I'd share.

----------


## hellouser

> Hey, hellouser, have you seen princessRambo's results back at ***?...
> 
> I know he is not just using the dermaroller... but still, to achive that kind of regrowth without fin...wow...


 A quick look at his results and I can safely say the regrowth is on par with some of the BEST result's I've seen from guys that used finasteride... and hes only been dermarolling for a relatively short time. Absolutely incredible results. I hope something starts happening on my end soon. My shedding is significantly down but density, temples and hairline are still crap.

----------


## StayThick

> A quick look at his results and I can safely say the regrowth is on par with some of the BEST result's I've seen from guys that used finasteride... and hes only been dermarolling for a relatively short time. Absolutely incredible results. I hope something starts happening on my end soon. My shedding is significantly down but density, temples and hairline are still crap.


 Hellouser, I'm in the same boat and we are paddling up the same river, but short of HT, nothing will regrow your hairline/corners bro. I seen your pics. It's not happening man. It just won't. We need to maintain at this point.

I'm saving my pennies for a HT next year...

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser, I'm in the same boat and we are paddling up the same river, but short of HT, nothing will regrow your hairline/corners bro. I seen your pics. It's not happening man. It just won't. We need to maintain at this point.
> 
> I'm saving my pennies for a HT next year...


 Only way my temples would have a chance of being filled in was if I had started a regimen 6 or so years ago. Hairline has been almost the same since, so essentially I've been about an NW2-3 for nearly a decade.

----------


## JDW

> Hey, hellouser, have you seen princessRambo's results back at ***?...
> 
> I know he is not just using the dermaroller... but still, to achive that kind of regrowth without fin...wow...


 Any chance of posting pictures of this up here somewhere?
thanks

----------


## Tracy C

> My god, please STOP it with the 'good quality' crap.


 Absolutely not - because it is not crap.

----------


## TheJive

> OK, I'm a *lot* more convinced of the merits of this technique after seeing Knockin's photos.


 His just looks like he grew his hair out.

Any better before and after pictures, with hair the same length.

I'm hoping that this is the answer.

----------


## LevonHelms

> His just looks like he grew his hair out.
> 
> Any better before and after pictures, with hair the same length.
> 
> I'm hoping that this is the answer.


 Theres a couple on ***.

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> His just looks like he grew his hair out.
> 
> Any better before and after pictures, with hair the same length.
> 
> I'm hoping that this is the answer.


 That's why I posted the other pic from a year ago with even longer hair.  i have no new hairs on my temple corners. But existing hair is thicker. I know i need a real camera. I dont wanna take my hair back that short because it looks better how it is now. 

Hopefully in about three months i can post new pics. That way it will at least be the same phone taking the pics. And hopefully my results havent peaked yet and i can show more improvement. And i will be  sure to keep it the same length. 

Its stressful sharing how bad my loss is. And depressing. But if it helps my bald bros out, its worth it.  Im doubting it will grow temple hair, but for advanced NWs its been helping

----------


## hellouser

I'm switching over to dermarolling every two weeks. However, I'm being more aggressive with wounding each time I do it; drawing more blood, pressing as hard as possible (full 1.5mm depth), rolling many time over the same area and sometimes 1-3x in a single day.

A couple weeks ago I dermarolled 3 times in one day at 2 hour intervals and applied minox shortly after during one of the sessions. It stung, due to the alcohol, but no side effects what so ever.

My reasons for waiting a two week period is in regards to the following graph on wounding and healing process:



Notice that at the 7-14 day mark there are a LOT of interesting things happening? By dermarolling/wounding every 7 days its POSSIBLE that we are in constant reset mode and the healing process is never achieved, thus not inducing the necessary growth factors.

When I waited my two week period, I noticed that a LOT of dead skin was being shed after 7 days, which could suggest that this time frame works.

----------


## clandestine

Hellouser; do you leave the blood on your head? Or do you wash it off after rolling?

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser; do you leave the blood on your head? Or do you wash it off after rolling?


 Last two times I dermarolled I wiped it off. I noticed that the blood leaves ugly brown patches on my scalp that stay for a while.

Also, something to think about; when wisdom teeth are removed, the blood dries up from the blood clot and closes the holes where the teeth used to be. Maybe someone can chime in, but would wiping off the blood slow down the healing process? As far as I know, Follica applies some kind of substance to the wounded area that slows down the healing process which is supposed to induce hair follicle neogenesis. Thoughts?

----------


## cichlidfort

> Maybe someone can chime in, but would wiping off the blood slow down the healing process?


 Maybe initially it might prolong the clotting process but overall I doubt it would slow down the healing process. Blood clotting is one the few bodily mechanisms that supports positive feedback (e.g. giving birth, inflammation, blood clotting, fever etc). The activity of the thrombocytes signals the body for more thrombocytes until the wound is blocked. Any other takes on it?

----------


## LevonHelms

> I'm switching over to dermarolling every two weeks. However, I'm being more aggressive with wounding each time I do it; drawing more blood, pressing as hard as possible (full 1.5mm depth), rolling many time over the same area and sometimes 1-3x in a single day.
> 
> A couple weeks ago I dermarolled 3 times in one day at 2 hour intervals and applied minox shortly after during one of the sessions. It stung, due to the alcohol, but no side effects what so ever.
> 
> My reasons for waiting a two week period is in regards to the following graph on wounding and healing process:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that at the 7-14 day mark there are a LOT of interesting things happening? By dermarolling/wounding every 7 days its POSSIBLE that we are in constant reset mode and the healing process is never achieved, thus not inducing the necessary growth factors.
> ...


 Looking at the graph, it may turn out that 2 weeks is the better time frame.
Personally I'm liking what I see with the 1 week interval, and I'm beginning to wonder if the initial period of vasodilation may be the key player. I'm wondering this, because I've noticed all of the smaller hairs seem to go into a hyper growth phase in the 2-3 days after rolling.

----------


## DesperateOne

It is now confirmed, this study will not achieve WIHN, it will only improve old hair and revive some old ones that were going to jump ship. It is still worth doing.

----------


## MackJames

> Looking at the graph, it may turn out that 2 weeks is the better time frame.
> Personally I'm liking what I see with the 1 week interval, and I'm beginning to wonder if the initial period of vasodilation may be the key player. I'm wondering this, because I've noticed all of the smaller hairs seem to go into a hyper growth phase in the 2-3 days after rolling.


 
Two weeks may be better but I'm going to continue following the guidelines of the study for the duration.  After the study period is over I will experiment with different application times.

----------


## MackJames

> It is now confirmed, this study will not achieve WIHN, it will only improve old hair and revive some old ones that were going to jump ship. It is still worth doing.


 

It's been confirmed?

----------


## clandestine

> It's been confirmed?


 No; I wouldn't listen to the user DesperateOne, personally.

Erratic.

----------


## Chromeo

> No; I wouldn't listen to the user DesperateOne, personally.
> 
> Erratic.


 I would tend to agree. The name is a bit of a giveaway. 

Confirmed by whom, exactly?

----------


## cichlidfort

> It is now confirmed, this study will not achieve WIHN, it will only improve old hair and revive some old ones that were going to jump ship. It is still worth doing.


 Don't deter new readers or members from trying this by announcing "it's been confirmed" when it clearly hasn't.

----------


## LevonHelms

> It's been confirmed?


 No, nothing has been confirmed. It's all still conjecture at this point.

However, it's _thought_ that actual neo-genesis might be impossible outside of Dr. Cotsarelis's lab. No surprise there, neo-genesis would be like turning lead into gold, a miracle. Neo-genesis would involve the formation of a complete follicle structure from scratch; sebaceous gland, dermal papilla, bulge region full of stem cells, all of it. This is what desperateone is referring to.

_Regeneration_, is what we're looking for, we don't need neo-genesis.  

Everything that would be formed by neo-genesis of hair structures is already in our scalp! The idea is to hit the reset switch by wounding and activate all the dormant and miniaturised hairs! :Big Grin:

----------


## brunobald

Ah crap... The evidence is there levon, maybe not in the dermarolling community but neogenesis has been reported in multiple cases. All creating brand spanking new follicles. The most compelling is the case of young burns victims with almost complete hair loss having their scalps stretched by inflating water ballons under the skin. Under tension new skin forms over the gallon to release the pressure. This new skin contains new follicules. Search the forum for details I posted this a while back. 

Then you have doctor cole and nigams regen. The complicated follicule structure has been removed leaving only part of the lower follicule in place, yet it completely regrows itsel from only a fraction of a follicle.

----------


## LevonHelms

Yes, you're right Bruno. 
I should of prefaced "In the context of dermarolling, neo-genesis seems unlikely, but not impossible.". That's the whole point, we don't know. It's damn sure doing something.

----------


## MackJames

Just completed my eighth week of rolling.  I have a question for my hair loss homies   How do I go about taking a good pic of my white hair?  I'm only 36 but my hair is basically white with a spattering of black and very short.

----------


## cichlidfort

> Just completed my eighth week of rolling.  I have a question for my hair loss homies   How do I go about taking a good pic of my white hair?  I'm only 36 but my hair is basically white with a spattering of black and very short.


 You can probably edit the picture. Are you using one of the new smart phones to take the pics?

----------


## MackJames

> You can probably edit the picture. Are you using one of the new smart phones to take the pics?


 
I have a 8 meg pixel digital camera and a smart phone also with 8.  The flash just makes it appear as if I have a lot less hair than I do.  It's better without the flash but is a bit dark.  Should I try natural lighting?  And the hair on my scalp is sticking straight up

----------


## clandestine

> I have a 8 meg pixel digital camera and a smart phone also with 8.  The flash just makes it appear as if I have a lot less hair than I do.  It's better without the flash but is a bit dark.  Should I try natural lighting?  And the hair on my scalp is sticking straight up


 Yes natural lighting is ideal.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Last two times I dermarolled I wiped it off. I noticed that the blood leaves ugly brown patches on my scalp that stay for a while.
> 
> Also, something to think about; when wisdom teeth are removed, the blood dries up from the blood clot and closes the holes where the teeth used to be. Maybe someone can chime in, but would wiping off the blood slow down the healing process? As far as I know, Follica applies some kind of substance to the wounded area that slows down the healing process which is supposed to induce hair follicle neogenesis. Thoughts?


 I am certain that many doctors look at this thread and just roll their eyes.  I personally believe there is merit to dermarolling over scar tissue to improve the appearance of a scar.  Growing hair or increasing density?  I doubt it but, it must be remembered that many medical breakthroughs were accidental.  For example, a Russian ophthalmologist who removed a sliver of glass from a girl's eye is considered the "father" of radial keratotomy.  Radial keratotomy is the technology that led to modern lasik surgery.  The doctor who removed the glass from his patient's eye saw an improvement in her vision after the slit healed.  If memory serves me, about 70% of refraction of light occurs at the cornea.  In myopia, the eye has too much plus power.  That's why optometrists and opthalmologists prescribe minus power lenses to lengthen the focal point so it reaches the retina.  Opthalmologists realized that slicing the cornea in a variety of ways has a flattening effect which lengthens the focal length.  Radial keratotomy is even effective in treating astigmatism.  FYI

Compared with other research, MPB research is relatively scarce.  I prefer to keep an open mind with a reasonable level of skepticism.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## Superdave

I'm game for giving it a shot.  Years ago I had mole removed on my right shoulder.  The dermatologist sliced it off and sent it to a lab to be evaluated.  It was deemed that more tissue needed to be removed, so I was referred to a general surgeon.  Well, he went kind of nuts and I was left witty a 2" gash and 3 to 4 stitches, looks like I was stabbed here.

Anyway, the incision was on the face of my shoulder just outside of the area where hair grows on my chest.  As this healed, hair grew out of the scar tissue and its a bit different in texture then the rest of the hair on my chest.  My other shoulder has no hair in this same area.

----------


## Pentarou

From my experiences so far, this woks _to some mild degree_, but there are some major pieces in the puzzle missing.

----------


## bombarie

> It is now confirmed, this study will not achieve WIHN, it will only improve old hair and revive some old ones that were going to jump ship. It is still worth doing.


 sh!T Confirmed by princessrambo in ***! Must be true now! :EEK!:  :Big Grin:

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys i am attaching some pictures pre op and immediatelly after op....(first session

i was rolling the scalp all directions 10 times with 1.5mm 192 needles roller for about an hour.(it was hurting very very much and i had to wait sometimes)

the scalp became red with blood drops (like a lot i think)

please have a moment and evaluate if the looks of it are what we are supposed to do as they did in the study....

i prepared it with saline and bedatine,...i also cleaned it slightly with betadine afterwards....

by the way i buzzed the head first time after years so i will monitor clearly the progress with pics and share with you...i dont like how i look buzzed cause i am receded...

please see and evaluate...
is this wounding sufficient...are there any dangers for my skin? i am slightly scared but i want to succeed as in the dermaroller study.

first three pics pre op second three after
thanks 
-john

----------


## MackJames

> guys i am attaching some pictures pre op and immediatelly after op....(first session
> 
> i was rolling the scalp all directions 10 times with 1.5mm 192 needles roller for about an hour.(it was hurting very very much and i had to wait sometimes)
> 
> the scalp became red with blood drops (like a lot i think)
> 
> please have a moment and evaluate if the looks of it are what we are supposed to do as they did in the study....
> 
> i prepared it with saline and bedatine,...i also cleaned it slightly with betadine afterwards....
> ...


 Great pics.  I look forward to following your progress.   I've been rolling for about eight weeks and I can't really tell if there has been any improvements.  However, last night my wife looked at me strangely while i was playing with my daughter on the floor and asked to take a look at my scalp.  

She said "oh my god,  you have a ton of little hairs sprouting all over".  She then said, "whatever your doing, it's working". Mind you she isn't the type to stroke my ego.  I was actually taken aback by her comments.

----------


## MackJames

This pic was taken last night.  The area in question has been thin for some time.  You can see the tiny little hairs.  My hair is white and it has been difficult getting a good pic.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i can clearly see.congrats they look normal size..keep doing it to grow them  :Wink: 

i am considering to numb my head the next session to roll it relaxed...

 :Smile:

----------


## MackJames

> i can clearly see.congrats they look normal size..keep doing it to grow them 
> 
> i am considering to numb my head the next session to roll it relaxed...


 
Thank you.   I don't want to be delusional and see things that aren't there.  I admit my eye does tear up when I roll.  I tell myself, push through the pain.

For the record, I apply minoxidil about thirty minutes after rolling and have since I started. I've never experienced any side effects.   I've also been using niz the following three days directly after rolling, sometimes within twenty minutes of rolling.

----------


## StayThick

> Thank you.   I don't want to be delusional and see things that aren't there.  I admit my eye does tear up when I roll.  I tell myself, push through the pain.
> 
> For the record, I apply minoxidil about thirty minutes after rolling and have since I started. I've never experienced any side effects.   I've also been using niz the following three days directly after rolling, sometimes within twenty minutes of rolling.


 This. I force myself to get passed the pain and it's not easy. The things I would to keep/regrow my hair.

----------


## LevonHelms

> guys i am attaching some pictures pre op and immediatelly after op....(first session
> 
> i was rolling the scalp all directions 10 times with 1.5mm 192 needles roller for about an hour.(it was hurting very very much and i had to wait sometimes)
> 
> the scalp became red with blood drops (like a lot i think)
> 
> please have a moment and evaluate if the looks of it are what we are supposed to do as they did in the study....
> 
> i prepared it with saline and bedatine,...i also cleaned it slightly with betadine afterwards....
> ...


 That's pretty much exactly what my head looks like post roll. I knock it out in 15 minutes tho, seems like you may be prolonging the agony lol. I've found that after the first 10 or 20 rolls adrenaline kicks in and the pain is suddenly much less.




> This pic was taken last night.  The area in question has been thin for some time.  You can see the tiny little hairs.  My hair is white and it has been difficult getting a good pic.


 Looking good Mack!

----------


## brunobald

Mack, that is quite something. Did you use any treatments in the months and years prior to using the dermaroller?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

tomorrow guys i am applying minox and in 6 days i will roll harder but i will use some numb cream to do the job correct.....

hope it works... 11 more rolls and if it works i will need like 2500grafts to be nw1  :Wink:

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

hey guys how many days after roll the scabs fall ,the red dots disappear//i think people are looking me strange...

is it illusion or my hair where i wounded hard feels strong?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys i also massage slightly everywhile and my galea is becoming really elastic....

lets see how it plays i feel positive.

----------


## MackJames

> Mack, that is quite something. Did you use any treatments in the months and years prior to using the dermaroller?


 I had been on fin for about a year and a half but have been off it for roughly eleven month.  I ceased using fin because my wife and I wanted to have another baby and I felt the quality and quantity of my semen was lower.(TMI?)  I look forward to telling the new kid over and over again about the sacrifice I made for their existence.  My doctor didn't recommend I discontinue, I decided on my own. 

A little over a year ago I started using minoxidil regularly after having tried it a couple years back.  It's so cheap now I thought what the hell. About three weeks ago my doctor prescribed 2% keto and I have been using it three times a week.  Finally, my doctor prescribed clobetasol foam for my psoriasis and occasionally I will put it on my scalp.

----------


## MackJames

> hey guys how many days after roll the scabs fall ,the red dots disappear//i think people are looking me strange...
> 
> is it illusion or my hair where i wounded hard feels strong?


 I "feel" the hair is stronger but it's hard to say for certain.  I roll to a similar degree as the example pics posted by other members.  Immediately after rolling I wipe down the scalp with alcohol pads and let the alcohol dissipate.  Scab formation seems to be minimal to none. 


Staythick,  I hear you, brother.  I'm in the same boat.  My eyes tear up something fierce.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

lol when I roll I stomp on the ground as I'm doing it, and just squint and cuss the whole time. freakin hurts, man.

----------


## DesperateOne

This thread has become a disaster.

----------


## Sogeking

Hi guys, I'm really crossing my fingers this works to some extent. 

Can you tell me how long does it take for the wounds to heal? Now this is dermaroller primarily used to remove scars on skin( acne scarring) however does it actually leave scars with such aggressive roling you guys do?

Also MackJames, why are you putting alcohol after rolling? To disinfect your scalp? If you are doing it to disinfect it is better to use pads just go over the wounds with alcohol on this cotton pads. No use for so much alcohol going to bloodstream.

Also when do you apply minox? Immediately after rolling or later in the week.

Thank you for  answers.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

minox twice a day 24 h after rolling.alcohol is for to whipe the blood and diminish scub formation. no scars....


> Hi guys, I'm really crossing my fingers this works to some extent. 
> 
> Can you tell me how long does it take for the wounds to heal? Now this is dermaroller primarily used to remove scars on skin( acne scarring) however does it actually leave scars with such aggressive roling you guys do?
> 
> Also MackJames, why are you putting alcohol after rolling? To disinfect your scalp? If you are doing it to disinfect it is better to use pads just go over the wounds with alcohol on this cotton pads. No use for so much alcohol going to bloodstream.
> 
> Also when do you apply minox? Immediately after rolling or later in the week.
> 
> Thank you for  answers.

----------


## MackJames

> Hi guys, I'm really crossing my fingers this works to some extent. 
> 
> Can you tell me how long does it take for the wounds to heal? Now this is dermaroller primarily used to remove scars on skin( acne scarring) however does it actually leave scars with such aggressive roling you guys do?
> 
> Also MackJames, why are you putting alcohol after rolling? To disinfect your scalp? If you are doing it to disinfect it is better to use pads just go over the wounds with alcohol on this cotton pads. No use for so much alcohol going to bloodstream.
> 
> Also when do you apply minox? Immediately after rolling or later in the week.
> 
> Thank you for  answers.


 The alcohol pads I use are very small, about an inch squared, and I use no more than two.  I use the pads to wipe away the blood and disinfect the scalp after rolling.  I also have a bottle of alcohol that I use to clean the roller which I do immediately after rolling. 

Most people apply minox twenty-four hours after rolling as the study indicated but I apply it an hour or so later and have not experienced any side effects. I always roll at night so even if I don't apply minoxidil that night after I've already applied it once that day.  I resume normal application the following morning.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys i am sure most users here wont roll enough to the level of mild erythema claimed by the scients of the study...they say they stopped till they saw first blood drops ....

so we must apply sth to counter attack pain but not interfer with the process...

i am thinking of topical xilocaine gel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidocaine

----------


## MackJames

A quick note, I'm noticing the tiny hairs sprouting primarily in the areas of my scalp where the hair thinning is the least and most recent. Could be that the areas where the hair has only recently begun thinning, relative to other thinning areas, is more likely to see immediate benefits from rolling.  Pure speculation on my part but it is a possiblility. 

Stay strong and keep being consistent, brothers.  I'll post more pics tonight.

----------


## Axel

> guys i am sure most users here wont roll enough to the level of mild erythema claimed by the scients of the study...they say they stopped till they saw first blood drops ....
> 
> so we must apply sth to counter attack pain but not interfer with the process...
> 
> i am thinking of topical xilocaine gel...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidocaine


 Google for dermarolling + EMLA cream

EMLA is what doctors and nurses use for numbing

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i just bought a xilocaine gel 4.5 euros....it is for numbing... :Smile:  lets see how it works..second sessio for me on sunday morning.

up to now i can report ....

tremendous increase in galea elasticity...its like omg huge the difference...now is as elastic as my donor area....before it was like a brick...



> Google for dermarolling + EMLA cream
> 
> EMLA is what doctors and nurses use for numbing

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

important


the pics with the results in the study of the guy with success and grown hair  were taken at the time of the last check  8 month after first roll



the results are promising and named as continued growth after end of rolls...



so guys do it 12 times as in the study and you will gain growth from which growth you will see the best benefits months after ending it.....



the small hairs noticed at sixth week they were monitored with specific cameras and shaved haeds...

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> i just bought a xilocaine gel 4.5 euros....it is for numbing... lets see how it works..second sessio for me on sunday morning.
> 
> up to now i can report ....
> 
> tremendous increase in galea elasticity...its like omg huge the difference...now is as elastic as my donor area....before it was like a brick...


 are you doing exercises to loosen your galea?

----------


## chimera

I have heard that before... but where does it says so?

----------


## fred970

No results then? RIP dermarolling.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

fred what is wrong?

please my friend put your brain and understand..

results are real but they happen months after ending the 3 month rolling as in the study ...

they say it clearly 

continued growth was sustained when they met the patients months after...and it is clear in the pic...the second hairy one is not at 12th week but at the time they met them months after completing the study....

it makes absolute sence.....


> No results then? RIP dermarolling.

----------


## vanityhair

Finally beginning to see some vellus hair action around the temples and hairline; nothing significant but quite a few small hairs. 

Although I am thinning all over in a diffuse pattern, I am concentrating most of my rolling to my hairline, mainly because my hair is long on top and it's difficult to get at it with the roller. Are others having this problem? My thought is that if I manage to get some terminals going around the hairline, then I should shave my head short and go for it all over my head, but until then I really don't want to have short hair.

----------


## LevonHelms

> fred what is wrong?
> 
> please my friend put your brain and understand..
> 
> results are real but they happen months after ending the 3 month rolling as in the study ...
> 
> they say it clearly 
> 
> continued growth was sustained when they met the patients months after...and it is clear in the pic...the second hairy one is not at 12th week but at the time they met them months after completing the study....
> ...


 Fred likes to go around pissing in everybody's Cheerios. He's a miserable tool, ignore him.

----------


## bigentries

> important
> 
> 
> the pics with the results in the study of the guy with success and grown hair were taken at the time of the last check  8 month after first roll
> 
> 
> 
> the results are promising and named as continued growth after end of rolls...
> 
> ...


 Where are people getting that the results are from 8 months? Why would they label them as 12 week pics in the first place?

So they stopped after 12 weeks and then it kept growing?
If that's the case, why did the minox-onlyguys never went back to baseline? 5 months after discontinuing minox is enough to see massive shedding

There's something fishy here

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

yes it kept cause the effect they took advantage of was platelet stem cells growth factors released during wounding and increased by minox....

propably the minox only guys were non good responders or 3 month was not significant for minox?or we dont know if they dropped slightly after?




> Where are people getting that the results are from 8 months? Why would they label them as 12 week pics in the first place?
> 
> So they stopped after 12 weeks and then it kept growing?
> If that's the case, why did the minox-onlyguys never went back to baseline? 5 months after discontinuing minox is enough to see massive shedding
> 
> There's something fishy here

----------


## bigentries

> yes it kept cause the effect they took advantage of was platelet stem cells growth factors released during wounding and increased by minox....
> 
> propably the minox only guys were non good responders or 3 month was not significant for minox?or we dont know if they dropped slightly after?


 Can't see anything there

No you don't get the point. If the dermarolling group pics were taken after 8 months, then I guess the minox only group was taken after 8 months too.

Even them show some regrowth, a regrowth that is impossible to sustain after discontinuing minox for 5 months

Anyway, labeling an 8 month pic as a 3 month results is plain wrong, I doubt anyone is going to see anything at 8 months, it's pretty clear at this point that the study was very biased or even completely fabricated

For me, I'm at week 10, still nothing. Will give it another month, maybe post pics and quit

----------


## PinotQ

The study is confusing in that they say they clipped the hair at the area being counted at both the beginning and again at the 12 week mark, yet neither set of pics seem to show that, with the possible exception of the minoxidil only photo.  And they say that they questioned the subjects at the 8 month mark but they do not say they took pictures.  So this is confusing.  However, in line with what Too Young To Retire is pointing out, I believe the platelet stem cells growth factors theory is entirely possible.  I say this b/c I had acell/prp before and my hair started looking thicker and healthier at the 4 month mark.  I can't say for sure if I had new hairs but I can definitely say I had cosmetically visible hairs at the 4 month mark that were very light and weak at the beginning. So I think what happens is that all of the hairs that are savable get thicker, darker and longer.  I was told at the beginning of my procedure that I would not notice anything before 4 months although I'm sure a high powered close-up would detect growth much earlier.    I'm not saying that weekly derma-rolling does the same thing but I think it is entirely plausible given the theoretical science behind it and given my particular experience.  It may even be better than acell/prp b/c of the consistent weekly rolling and recruitment of stem cells/growth factors. I also note that the reason I googled this blog was b/c of Dr. Rassman  at the balding blog (who notoriously downplays new possibilities) who said in his blog that he was actually thinking about offering this type of derma-rolling procedure.  We know from the research that wounded skin/scalp in a favorable environment can induce denovo hair growth so while minoxidil may not be a powerful enough changer of the environment to accomplish that, it may very well be powerful enough to save damaged hair at a much stronger and more consistent level than any of the other options we have to date.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

thats why the growth came later after the end of 12th week...






> The study is confusing in that they say they clipped the hair at the area being counted at both the beginning and again at the 12 week mark, yet neither set of pics seem to show that, with the possible exception of the minoxidil only photo.  And they say that they questioned the subjects at the 8 month mark but they do not say they took pictures.  So this is confusing.  However, in line with what Too Young To Retire is pointing out, I believe the platelet stem cells growth factors theory is entirely possible.  I say this b/c I had acell/prp before and my hair started looking thicker and healthier at the 4 month mark.  I can't say for sure if I had new hairs but I can definitely say I had cosmetically visible hairs at the 4 month mark that were very light and weak at the beginning. So I think what happens is that all of the hairs that are savable get thicker, darker and longer.  I was told at the beginning of my procedure that I would not notice anything before 4 months although I'm sure a high powered close-up would detect growth much earlier.    I'm not saying that weekly derma-rolling does the same thing but I think it is entirely plausible given the theoretical science behind it and given my particular experience.  It may even be better than acell/prp b/c of the consistent weekly rolling and recruitment of stem cells/growth factors. I also note that the reason I googled this blog was b/c of Dr. Rassman  at the balding blog (who notoriously downplays new possibilities) who said in his blog that he was actually thinking about offering this type of derma-rolling procedure.  We know from the research that wounded skin/scalp in a favorable environment can induce denovo hair growth so while minoxidil may not be a powerful enough changer of the environment to accomplish that, it may very well be powerful enough to save damaged hair at a much stronger and more consistent level than any of the other options we have to date.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

Q:  How soon will see results and how long will they last?
A:   New hair growth becomes visible in most cases within 6-8 months after ACell treatment


from Dr that does prp and acell///

so if i am not mistaken prp and acell injections mimic natures platelet rich plasma  and growth factos etc....

thats why in the study the hairy guys is pictured at 8 month...

and you know what?

i believe that even after they kept growing...

so all of you keep rolling and replicate the staudy as close as possible and then           wait        just wait    .....

----------


## vraf

Hi Guys,

Can anyone please help:

1. What is the most suitable dermaroller brand recommended? links to an 
    online stores will be very helpful.

2. The wounds on the scalp must be very visible through the thin hair, how do 
    you avoid that everyone can see it and of course respond?

3.  Is it better to have a long hair or very short?

4.  How can I know that I rolled hard enough and how hard do I need to 
     press?

If there's a post with answers to the above I'll be glad to receive the link.

Thanks a lot!

----------


## clandestine

Wounds on the scalp aren't very visible; I have ashamed head and they disappear mostly by the next day, 1.5mm roller.

Short hair is better.

You'll start to see little blood dots, this is usually an indication you're going hard enough. Your scalp should be red and irritated.

----------


## Pentarou

Perfect response, clan.

I also find the redness gone by 24 hours (when I know it's minox time). You'll get dotty blood spots that dry very quickly. You'd have to really hurt yourself to draw rivulets of blood.

You can roll longer hair, but you have to take your time to avoid hair pulling. Takes a few weeks to get the technique nailed.

----------


## vraf

> Wounds on the scalp aren't very visible; I have ashamed head and they disappear mostly by the next day, 1.5mm roller.
> 
> Short hair is better.
> 
> You'll start to see little blood dots, this is usually an indication you're going hard enough. Your scalp should be red and irritated.


 Thanks Clandestine!
Regarding the roller- can you please recommend reliable manufacturers?

----------


## clandestine

> Thanks Clandestine!
> Regarding the roller- can you please recommend reliable manufacturers?


 Post was supposed to say shaved, not ashamed lol. Autocorrect.

Bought mine off eBay.com

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

how can i disinfect my roller guys?

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys i am going to disinfect my roller like that..

i pour on it tap water then alcohol 93degree and the leave it for an our in the alcohol////

then use it.

is it enough?

----------


## LevonHelms

> guys i am going to disinfect my roller like that..
> 
> i pour on it tap water then alcohol 93degree and the leave it for an our in the alcohol////
> 
> then use it.
> 
> is it enough?


 Yeah man, that'll work.  I clean mine with alcohol before and after and then rinse with tap water.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

did yesteraday my sexonf session and i noticed.

slightly less pain less blood cause now my galea gets circulated and is elastic much more...


now on the improvments...

i buzzed the hair 9 das ago and my hair on top where i roll is slightly longer than hair on sides..

also hair appears darker at some areas and in the hairline there are some turbocharged v8 hairs much longer than any and very thick....


lets see how it goes...

----------


## Rekoj

Has Anyone Tried Derma-rolling and Then Using Carprost ? Instead of Minox etc ?

----------


## gainspotter

> did yesteraday my sexonf session and i noticed.
> 
> slightly less pain less blood cause now my galea gets circulated and is elastic much more...
> 
> 
> now on the improvments...
> 
> i buzzed the hair 9 das ago and my hair on top where i roll is slightly longer than hair on sides..
> 
> ...


 Sounds positive. I'm noticing fine hairs come through now I have buzzed.
Keep it up.

----------


## Conpecia

just finished what i believe is my 10th session, but i've started doing it every other week the past month so it's been around 12 weeks. significant increase in vellus hair all the way down to my juvenile hairline with some terminal hairs popping up here and there at my actual receded hairline and behind it. it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year with this treatment, if this vellus hair keeps improving and turns terminal i won't need to worry about my hairloss whatsoever anymore.  

remember i've also been on dutasteride since august so please factor that in with my results, but i was on finasteride for 7 years and it never gave me anything at the hairline.

----------


## hellouser

> just finished what i believe is my 10th session, but i've started doing it every other week the past month so it's been around 12 weeks. significant increase in vellus hair all the way down to my juvenile hairline with some terminal hairs popping up here and there at my actual receded hairline and behind it. it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year with this treatment, if this vellus hair keeps improving and turns terminal i won't need to worry about my hairloss whatsoever anymore.  
> 
> remember i've also been on dutasteride since august so please factor that in with my results, but i was on finasteride for 7 years and it never gave me anything at the hairline.


 Any before/after pics?

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> just finished what i believe is my 10th session, but i've started doing it every other week the past month so it's been around 12 weeks. significant increase in vellus hair all the way down to my juvenile hairline with some terminal hairs popping up here and there at my actual receded hairline and behind it. it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year with this treatment, if this vellus hair keeps improving and turns terminal i won't need to worry about my hairloss whatsoever anymore.  
> 
> remember i've also been on dutasteride since august so please factor that in with my results, but i was on finasteride for 7 years and it never gave me anything at the hairline.


 that's awesome man!!

----------


## Dan26

unreal con!

i know u were shedding quite a bit at one point, has it stopped / slowed? and was your hairline taking a hit during this?

----------


## Hicks

> Any before/after pics?


 Your the photo guy? Please start a thread about how to take proper before and after photos. A standard? I don't know, maybe I'm throwing balloons in the air. Something to show progress?  When I visited Cole they determined density and other stuff. I'm not sure what they did. It'll be interesting to see how I progressed after a few months if I go back.

----------


## Conpecia

> unreal con!
> 
> i know u were shedding quite a bit at one point, has it stopped / slowed? and was your hairline taking a hit during this?


 yeah the shedding has slowed and my hairline took much more than a hit unfortunately, more like decimation. but i still see TONS of tiny, tiny fuzz in all frontal areas affected by mpb, as long as it never gets slick bald i have hope. 

hellouser i have before pics but they suck and the after pics would not be nearly cosmetic enough to show improvement. as i said before i'll absolutely post pics if things get interesting enough but it's still very early

----------


## LevonHelms

> just finished what i believe is my 10th session, but i've started doing it every other week the past month so it's been around 12 weeks. significant increase in vellus hair all the way down to my juvenile hairline with some terminal hairs popping up here and there at my actual receded hairline and behind it. it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year with this treatment, if this vellus hair keeps improving and turns terminal i won't need to worry about my hairloss whatsoever anymore.  
> 
> remember i've also been on dutasteride since august so please factor that in with my results, but i was on finasteride for 7 years and it never gave me anything at the hairline.


 Right on Con, I'm seeing the same thing.  Some of the vellus are starting to pigment and lengthen out.

----------


## Pentarou

> just finished what i believe is my 10th session, but i've started doing it every other week the past month so it's been around 12 weeks. significant increase in vellus hair all the way down to my juvenile hairline with some terminal hairs popping up here and there at my actual receded hairline and behind it. it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year with this treatment, if this vellus hair keeps improving and turns terminal i won't need to worry about my hairloss whatsoever anymore.  
> 
> remember i've also been on dutasteride since august so please factor that in with my results, but i was on finasteride for 7 years and it never gave me anything at the hairline.


 Con, what's your current Norwood, out of curiosity?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

We had a patient in yesterday who told me he saw a dramatic difference in the quality of his hair from dermarolling minoxidil. 

I think this thread is over 180 pages, so this has probably been posted here before... Research that lead to the formation of "Follica" supports the following:

Wnt is involved in the healing of wounds and can be used to produce new hair follicles. The experiment showed that follicles can develop when a wound heals, and that the process can be manipulated to greatly increase the number of follicles. In the study, scientists removed small sections of skin from mice. This spurred stem cell activity in places where the skin was removed. However, when the scientists blocked the Wnt gene, follicles didn't grow. When Wnt was stimulated, the skin healed without scarring and eventually had all the same characteristics -- hair follicles, glands, appearance -- of normal skin. These new follicles also behaved normally, producing hair in the same way as other follicles.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## Conpecia

> Con, what's your current Norwood, out of curiosity?


 i'd say i'm nw3 vertex or just under that. but the problem is i'm still receding even though i do see the vellus hairs. i'm on dut but it hasn't kicked in yet, still shedding way more than i was on fin years ago. nothing to do but ride it out.

----------


## Pentarou

Thanks for the reply, and best of luck with the Dut, I'm sure that you'll recover from the shed before too long! Hope the vellus hair turns terminal as well.

----------


## MackJames

Pics

----------


## MackJames

Pic 2

----------


## MackJames

Pic 3

----------


## MackJames

Pic 4.  Sorry for the  multiple posts.  I wasn't able to put the pics all on one post.  I'm getting small hairs mostly in the mid-scalp.

----------


## LevonHelms

> Pic 4.  Sorry for the  multiple posts.  I wasn't able to put the pics all on one post.  I'm getting small hairs mostly in the mid-scalp.


 That's great Mack! How many weeks and what size you using?

----------


## MackJames

> That's great Mack! How many weeks and what size you using?


 

I've been rolling once a week for 11wks.  I use a 1.5 mm roller I bought from amazon.   I had my hair buzzed down to a one and I had to let my hair grow out before I could take pics.   I have noticed stubble on the mid-anterior of my scalp and some around my left temple.

----------


## MackJames

For fun I decided to use some light brown dermmatch I had lying around.   I have sliver grey but it looks to blue.

----------


## clandestine

Mack; you need before pictures, really.

----------


## broseph

So I decided to try dermarolling back in august, around the same time I started minox (actually nanox). Below is my regimen and results, which I think aren't bad!

Dermarolling for 10-1 week sessions. The after pics were taken 1 week after my 10th session. From here on out, I'm switching to a bi-weekly routine. Each session was about 15 minutes. Bled, but not quite as much as some other people on here.

Regimen: Pretty much all DS Lab products. No this isn't a promotion for DS Labs, I simply just have a belief that their products are meant to be used together. I've used the shampoo and conditioner for about 2 years and think they work great for strength.

Instead of minox, I use the DS nanox. Its suppose to be similar to minox but lighter molecular weight. I started the nanox about 2 weeks before rolling.

I use DS shampoo in morning and the conditioner when I took a quick shower after the gym in the evening. Nanox is applied morning/night, except I waited the 24 hours after rolling.

Results: I would say regarding the front, nothing at all yet, at least noticeable. Regarding the back, very, very good regrowth. Whats nice is that my hair isn't quite as long in the afters, and it still looks better.

----------


## Conpecia

so you'd never taken minox prior to then? bummer. congrats on regrowth though, but i don't think we can attribute it to dermarolling as easily as someone who has been on minox for a long time

----------


## broseph

I took minox up until about Jan, for about 1 year or so, then decided to quit just to save money and to essentially give up and not worry about my hair. When this trial started up I figured it wouldn't hurt to try, so I started back up in August. The one problem I had and I PLEAD other people to do is always take before pics when starting a regimen. Unfortunately, I didnt have the foresight during my previous regimens so I never could fully see the effects. The eyeball test just simply isn't enough.

I'd have to say for just 3 months, I'm happy with these results.

----------


## MackJames

> Mack; you need before pictures, really.


 Im going through photos of the last time I had my hair grown out.  Here is one from April

----------


## MackJames

This was taken the same day.

----------


## FearTheLoss

holy hell boys, add histogen or some better growth stimulators than minox..maybe bim! and we have the cure

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> So I decided to try dermarolling back in august, around the same time I started minox (actually nanox). Below is my regimen and results, which I think aren't bad!


 Looking good!!!

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## crafter

> holy hell boys, add histogen or some better growth stimulators than minox..maybe bim! and we have the cure


 hmmm....bit optimistic.

----------


## LevonHelms

Good improvement guys, keep it up!

----------


## vraf

What are you guys doing when finished rolling, are you disinfecting the scalp in any way?
Are you washing the scalp with water?
Do you wipe the scalp with something special or just a towel/wet towel?
In what directions do you move your roller?
How many times do you run over each area?
How much time it usually takes?

Thanks

----------


## clandestine

I feel minoxidil is giving me tinnitus; is this a known side effect?

Should I taper off? I want my hair, but not at the risk of my hearing.

----------


## hellouser

> I feel minoxidil is giving me tinnitus; is this a known side effect?
> 
> Should I taper off? I want my hair, but not at the risk of my hearing.


 Does it stop once you get off Minox? I've had tinnitus for the past couple years as well, but Tinnitus didn't start until about 6 months after starting Minox.

----------


## clandestine

> Does it stop once you get off Minox? I've had tinnitus for the past couple years as well, but Tinnitus didn't start until about 6 months after starting Minox.


 I can't be sure, hell. It's only started after being on Minox now for 7weeks, every day 5%.

I feel I should taper off over four weeks or so rather than stop altogether, though.

----------


## StayThick

> Does it stop once you get off Minox? I've had tinnitus for the past couple years as well, but Tinnitus didn't start until about 6 months after starting Minox.


 I've never heard of this as a reaction to minox. I have been on it over 6 years and have never had that problem. Not saying it isn't possible though.

Only side I noticed from minox is foreheads wrinkles over the years where prior there was none, eye bags, forming of crows feet, and eye puffiness.

Hate the sides but it's a price I'm willing to pay if I maintain which is what I think minox is doing for me at this point..

----------


## hellouser

> I've never heard of this as a reaction to minox. I have been on it over 6 years and have never had that problem. Not saying it isn't possible though.
> 
> Only side I noticed from minox is foreheads wrinkles over the years where prior there was none, eye bags, forming of crows feet, and eye puffiness.
> 
> Hate the sides but it's a price I'm willing to pay if I maintain which is what I think minox is doing for me at this point..


 I'm not suggesting that my tinnitus is due minoxidil. I have listened to excessively loud music for very long periods of time when I was younger (lots electronic music, DJing, etc)

But its amazing how some of us value our hair more than our skin.... I do too to be honest.

----------


## Hairismylife

I'm about to buy a dermaroller. However I have some questions.

I see one named "MT Dermaroller" 1.5mm, is that ok?

Should I start with minox also or see the dermarolling result first before using?

What Should I use to sterilize the roller? Simply alcohol ok? and my scalp also

Thanks

----------


## Dan26

> But its amazing how some of us value our hair more than our skin.... I do too to be honest.


 Man if I had good skin and decent head shape I don't think I'd care nearly as much about losing my hair...or I would have atleast attempted the shaved head already

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

what can we assume guys is the lowest safe dose for dermarolling to work but to avoid aging face from minox?

----------


## gainspotter

> Man if I had good skin and decent head shape I don't think I'd care nearly as much about losing my hair...or I would have atleast attempted the shaved head already


 Agreed. Guess some of us are doubly unlucky. 
I will say though since starting retin a micro cream after the bad effects minox had on my skin, I don't think my face has ever looked so good in my 20s.
May start back on the minox if the cream still protects my skin.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

it protects it cause minox hidroxilase inhibition is adding up...

also everynight put some pure ascorbic acid serum 20%


> Agreed. Guess some of us are doubly unlucky. 
> I will say though since starting retin a micro cream after the bad effects minox had on my skin, I don't think my face has ever looked so good in my 20s.
> May start back on the minox if the cream still protects my skin.

----------


## Conpecia

yeah i'm starting to see some of the bad effects from minox on my face. eyes look a little wearier, smile lines forming. jesus it's insane what we'll do to keep hair.

----------


## Dan26

> Agreed. Guess some of us are doubly unlucky. 
> I will say though since starting retin a micro cream after the bad effects minox had on my skin, I don't think my face has ever looked so good in my 20s.
> May start back on the minox if the cream still protects my skin.


 I started using retin a micro gel right when i started minox as preventative measure, it's a smart idea man.

Its one of those things that you will only notice overtime ie years down the road youll say 'hey my skin is still the same or better'...atleast thats what ice seen from testimonials online..i guess the retin a postive effects are similar to the minox negative effects in that they slowly creep up on you lol

----------


## Conpecia

> I started using retin a micro gel right when i started minox as preventative measure, it's a smart idea man.
> 
> Its one of those things that you will only notice overtime ie years down the road youll say 'hey my skin is still the same or better'...atleast thats what ice seen from testimonials online..i guess the retin a postive effects are similar to the minox negative effects in that they slowly creep up on you lol


 this is a good call, i think i'm gonna get some of this right now...

----------


## hellouser

Howcome none of you guys are using your dermaroller on wrinkled areas?? You've already got dermarollers....

----------


## Dan26

> Howcome none of you guys are using your dermaroller on wrinkled areas?? You've already got dermarollers....


 im gonna start using a 0.5mm one...not 100% sure how to go about it

possibly mornings before i hop in the shower, then moisterize after...gotta look into it

----------


## hellouser

> im gonna start using a 0.5mm one...not 100% sure how to go about it
> 
> possibly mornings before i hop in the shower, then moisterize after...gotta look into it


 I think a smaller dermaroller would be better... isn't the skin underneath the eyes supposed to be thinner, hence the dark circles which is formed by the blood? I'd be deathly afraid to dermaroll there... at least with a 1.5mm roller.

----------


## Dan26

> I think a smaller dermaroller would be better... isn't the skin underneath the eyes supposed to be thinner, hence the dark circles which is formed by the blood? I'd be deathly afraid to dermaroll there... at least with a 1.5mm roller.


 ya i woudl roll light around the eyes

basically just do forehead, laughing lines, and lightly under eyes with 0.5mm roller

----------


## doinmyheadin

Do you guys know there are old threads from other hairloss forums doing derma rolling. I just came across one from 2009 on hairl0sst@lk where someone was using histogen reginica with a derma roller.

So 4 years later has anyone had any worthwhile results?

----------


## gainspotter

I have a 0.5 roller that I'm gonna use for my face but the micro cream is alls I can tolerate lately as its been peeling my old skin off.
So far my face is looking massively better than when I was on minox.

----------


## Conpecia

looks like we're burning out. no real results for me at about 14 weeks. vellus has basically frozen where it is. sigh.

----------


## win200

> looks like we're burning out. no real results for me at about 14 weeks. vellus has basically frozen where it is. sigh.


 I never really anticipated that this would add much in terms of cosmetically significant coverage.  I think what we'll see is some very mild strengthening of vellus hair.  But the really value here could be that dermarolling simply lends some support to hairs that are in the vicinity of becoming terminal; i.e., it gives hair some additional vitality/nourishment/whatever.

----------


## mrblazer

We know this maybe no cure but I think it's worth adding to your treatments. It doesn't cost much and its not much hassle. I have been rolling about 12 weeks now and I would say it has thickened my hair in certain places. Some guys on *** are still getting great results from rolling. keep it up

----------


## win200

> We know this maybe no cure but I think it's worth adding to your treatments. It doesn't cost much and its not much hassle. I have been rolling about 12 weeks now and I would say it has thickened my hair in certain places. Some guys on *** are still getting great results from rolling. keep it up


 Totally agreed.  The help may be minimal in some cases, but it's there.  And I don't think I've heard a single account of someone claiming that rolling caused a shed or loss that didn't grow back.  So this seems like a no-brainer.

----------


## bigentries

> Totally agreed.  The help may be minimal in some cases, but it's there.  And I don't think I've heard a single account of someone claiming that rolling caused a shed or loss that didn't grow back.  So this seems like a no-brainer.


 But you are using minoxidil, a well proven treatment. It doesn't seem like dermarolling helps at all. 
You can also do 20 situps as you apply because "there is no hassle" but it doesn't mean it works

And damage from dermarolling is well documented, most people in dermarolling forums only advice to doing it once a month

As for myself, this was week 13 and still nothing, one more week and I'm done, don't want to risk any damage from wounding or keep my hairline minox dependent

----------


## Atum

> As for myself, this was week 13 and still nothing, one more week and I'm done, don't want to risk any damage from wounding or keep my hairline minox dependent


 Your quitting minox now and then or you don't normally use it?
Wondering, because i just started Rogaine and just like you don't want my hair to get dependent of it.

----------


## bigentries

> Your quitting minox now and then or you don't normally use it?
> Wondering, because i just started Rogaine and just like you don't want my hair to get dependent of it.


 I used rogaine for a year, 5 years ago. Normal shedding for around 2 months, I couldn't tell you about a shedding post-minox, since I started fin right away and had a horrible shedding for 6 months, but I blame fin for that

I didn't noticed any shedding this time

----------


## win200

> But you are using minoxidil, a well proven treatment. It doesn't seem like dermarolling helps at all. 
> You can also do 20 situps as you apply because "there is no hassle" but it doesn't mean it works
> 
> And damage from dermarolling is well documented, most people in dermarolling forums only advice to doing it once a month
> 
> As for myself, this was week 13 and still nothing, one more week and I'm done, don't want to risk any damage from wounding or keep my hairline minox dependent


 Can you shoot a link to conversation about damage from dermarolling?  Genuinely curious--hadn't heard that before.

----------


## bigentries

> Can you shoot a link to conversation about damage from dermarolling?  Genuinely curious--hadn't heard that before.


 This is the thread is very popular, although I would take it with a grain of salt
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/top...-dermarollers/

Here's another discussion about rolling frequency
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/top...e-it-so-often/

----------


## 1hair

> looks like we're burning out. no real results for me at about 14 weeks. vellus has basically frozen where it is. sigh.


 Quick question about your routine, are you applying minoxidil within the 24 hours of dermarolling? Is blood coming out of most of the pin holes, or only a few dots here and there?

I started 2 days ago, very painful but i was very firm and almost all spots had blood coming out of it. My minoxidil arrived on the same day so i did apply at the same time but in the future I will not.

I did not feel any side effects from the increased absorption of minoxidil but will refrain from using it within the 24 hour period regardless as I would like to mimic a study which worked to the letter.

Also i am a little confused as to why people believe minoxidil is a pge2 stimulant, as i have read studies claiming the complete opposite albeit they were old studies.

----------


## MackJames

I'm still seeing/feeling stubble in thinner areas of my mid-anterior scalp.  The change isn't dramatic but in my opinion this treatment does produce results.

----------


## lilpauly

1,5 is to deep. going to .5

----------


## Chromeo

> 1,5 is to deep. going to .5


 I wouldn't expect really noticeable results on the 0.5mm but good luck.

----------


## cichlidfort

> I wouldn't expect really noticeable results on the 0.5mm but good luck.


 Didn't the trial use 0.5mm with sufficient results?

----------


## Hairismylife

> 1,5 is to deep. going to .5


 
Using 1.5 with less pressure is the same?

----------


## Chromeo

> Didn't the trial use 0.5mm with sufficient results?


 Nope. 1.5mm. 

_"The shaven scalp was prepared with betadine and normal saline. A dermaroller of 1.5 mm sized needles was rolled over the affected areas of the scalp in a longitudinal, vertical, and diagonal directions until mild erythema was noted, which was considered as the end point of the procedure."_

----------


## Hairismylife

My dermaroller has arrived.
But so far the dermarolling result is good or not?
Can anyone dermarolling report your latest condition?

----------


## fred970

We have absolutely no results so far.

----------


## Pentarou

The Negativity Troll is back!!!!!

----------


## MackJames

> We have absolutely no results so far.


 I've seen results.  I've felt the stubble growing longer in the thinner areas.  The growth is minor but it's there.

----------


## chimera

I do am seeing results, so I think it works to a certain degree. But I am 100&#37; convinced no one is going to get the awesome results the study suggested.

I have a lot, and I mean *A LOT* of new small hairs all over my scalp (they are not vellus, they are terminal hairs, but very, very small... maybe they will get as big as the rest of my hair, but if they do, it will probably take many, many hair cycles for it... probably even years).

Anyway... I'm going to continue... as I am more interested in see what it does for my existing hair...

----------


## DifferentLine

Is there any use in starting this if I'm not using Minoxidil?

----------


## the_dude78

> My dermaroller has arrived.
> But so far the dermarolling result is good or not?
> Can anyone dermarolling report your latest condition?


 
I've been dermarolling since august and I do it every 3rd week. Shedding has gone way down and I see traces of my juvenile hairline now. So it works but it takes longer to see results than the 6 weeks the study suggests, and I doubt that the 12 week photos are really from week 12 - rather 6-8 months. I'm not saying i'm about to regrow all of my juvenile hairline, because that's just not realistic, but there is definitely progress.

I'm also on fin and has been for about 4 years, but even on fin I would be shedding. Especially in the past year or so I've been shedding a lot, and I could very easily pull out hairs. Around October shedding was reduced significantly and regrowth is now getting more and more obvious.. But it takes time to see results, more than 6 weeks.

And I use minox too of course, but only once a day as opposed to the 2 times  a day in the study.

So you should definitely give a try, but give it more than 6 weeks.

----------


## greatjob!

I really think there is something to this, I think we're just missing some key ingredient or have to work out some timing issue. This is why I'm hopeful that Follica will come out with something.

I too can feel small hairs on my scalp like little pricks when I run my fingers over my head, it feels similar to when I had my hair transplant when the hairs started growing. The difference is that the hair transplant hairs grew, but these little hairs seem to be stuck in limbo which is why I think we're missing something. I'm going to continue with this for a full year to see if they mature or not.

----------


## hellouser

> I really think there is something to this, I think we're just missing some key ingredient or have to work out some timing issue. This is why I'm hopeful that Follica will come out with something.
> 
> I too can feel small hairs on my scalp like little pricks when I run my fingers over my head, it feels similar to when I had my hair transplant when the hairs started growing. The difference is that the hair transplant hairs grew, but these little hairs seem to be stuck in limbo which is why I think we're missing something. I'm going to continue with this for a full year to see if they mature or not.


 I'm still thinking its FGF-9... god damn it I wanna try it. If only we knew its safety.

----------


## LevonHelms

> My dermaroller has arrived.
> But so far the dermarolling result is good or not?
> Can anyone dermarolling report your latest condition?


 Go for it man. I'm still seeing results, slow and steady. I plan to continue indefinitely. TheDude is right though, it doesn't happen overnight. Just be consistent.

----------


## greatjob!

> I'm still thinking its FGF-9... god damn it I wanna try it. If only we knew its safety.


 Yeah I wouldn't try it myself since it's related to tumor stimulation

----------


## clandestine

> Yeah I wouldn't try it myself since it's related to tumor stimulation


 Maybe the tumors will have hair on them.

----------


## StayThick

Does Kane's growth factors have FGF-9 in it?

Don't believe it does, but people that have used that haven't got tumors...

----------


## hellouser

> Does Kane's growth factors have FGF-9 in it?
> 
> Don't believe it does, but people that have used that haven't got tumors...


 Nope, no FGF-9. It contains nanog and VEGF i think.

----------


## bigentries

OK, so this was week 14, and I had no cosmetic improvement

However, I'm starting to see SOME peach fuzz, and around 4 tiny vellus hairs

Still nothing close to what the study suggested, but I'm questioning whether to keep going until the end of year or not. Because I know my first rollings weren't deep enough

----------


## Tacola

Hi,

I know I could read through the whole thread, but hopefully someone can sum up things for me very briefly. I have had a long break from this site, but visited to day and found this thread interesting.

My questions are:

- What kind of dermaroller is suggested? How do I use it?
- Is it ok to use it with Minox?
- How often do you use the dermaroller? As often as I apply Minox? I apply it 1-2 times a day.
- Are there any sideeffects?

In advance, many thanks for the update. In my opinion the sollution might as well come from the forum as from one of the companies. Keep it going!

----------


## Chromeo

- 1.5mm needle dermaroller. Some argue 192 needle rollers are better than 540 needles.
- Yes, in fact you are supposed to use it with Minox to replicate the study. However, it is suggested that you should avoid applying Minox until 24 hours after rolling for safety reasons.
- The dermaroller should be used once a week to replicate the study. You should be seeing blood if you are applying enough pressure with a 1.5mm roller.
- Slight redness and tenderness of the scalp for up to a day or so after a heavy rolling session. Some shedding of dead skin is fairly common. 

Good luck!

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

guys i think i see new hairs

----------


## Hairismylife

> guys i think i see new hairs


 Congratulation!
Do you roll to bleed or mild red?

----------


## saintsfan92344

I just did my 3rd roll last night, rolled a little harder and drew more blood, used minox right after instead of 24 hrs later like I normally do and did not seem to have any extra minox effects. I roll 1x a week minox 1x per day, nizoral 2-3x week, multi vitamins, 5000mg msm and biotin, castor oil 2-3 times a week and onion juice 1-2x week(too smelly to do more but my scalp feels good after).
 Cant say after 3 rolls there is anything for sure happening yet but my hair does seem to be growing faster but that could be vitamins also. going to start adding b12 to my minox. 
 It seems like quite a few people on other forums are having some results with this, I do think its the ones that roll the hardest and draw blood so the way I look at it is if I am in I am in and going to roll even harder next time, it is wounding that is supposed to be a huge factor after all, we might as well do some wounding

----------


## chimera

faster hair growth is a classic effect of msm...

----------


## FearTheLoss

Guys who have been seeing good results need to start a log on here with before and after photos instead of everything just getting lost in this thread

----------


## DifferentLine

Just had my first sesh, didn't think it was that bad. Maybe I didn't roll hard enough? I didn't press down hard enough to bleed. I can definitely feel the irritation now though, its itchy.

Should my scalp be really sore after?

----------


## saintsfan92344

pics of my bloody head for comparison just buzzed to a 1mm

----------


## oscar32

> Just had my first sesh, didn't think it was that bad. Maybe I didn't roll hard enough? I didn't press down hard enough to bleed. I can definitely feel the irritation now though, its itchy.
> 
> Should my scalp be really sore after?


 Mine was sore.

----------


## Thinning87

> Guys who have been seeing good results need to start a log on here with before and after photos instead of everything just getting lost in this thread


 We already had a log thread that was results only. No one has been posting in it lately

----------


## hellouser

> We already had a log thread that was results only. No one has been posting in it lately


 There are a few active threads with results on the Hair Loss Talk forums.

----------


## KeepHoping

Started around 4 months ago, was rolling once a week for 10 weeks then stopped but continued on minox, will probably resume rolling once every two weeks.  I feel like there has been some improvement but nothing to jump out of your chair for, I will continue and see if I have further improvement.  Things to note, I am on fin 1.25 daily and started taking MSM which I'm not convinced does anything but maybe make the quality of your hair a bit better.  Kept the room and the lighting as consistent as possible, sorry for the weird crop job but he images are pretty good quality taken from an 8.1 megapixel digital camera (best I have)...  Thats about it, good luck everyone.

After picture is on the left.

----------


## StayThick

> Started around 4 months ago, was rolling once a week for 10 weeks then stopped but continued on minox, will probably resume rolling once every two weeks.  I feel like there has been some improvement but nothing to jump out of your chair for, I will continue and see if I have further improvement.  Things to note, I am on fin 1.25 daily and started taking MSM which I'm not convinced does anything but maybe make the quality of your hair a bit better.  Kept the room and the lighting as consistent as possible, sorry for the weird crop job but he images are pretty good quality taken from an 8.1 megapixel digital camera (best I have)...  Thats about it, good luck everyone.
> 
> After picture is on the left.


 Thanks for the comparison. I do see some improvement and on par with what we can except at best with this treatment. Keep it up man, hopefully you can gain even more coverage in time. Thanks for sharing.

----------


## hellouser

> Started around 4 months ago, was rolling once a week for 10 weeks then stopped but continued on minox, will probably resume rolling once every two weeks.  I feel like there has been some improvement but nothing to jump out of your chair for, I will continue and see if I have further improvement.  Things to note, I am on fin 1.25 daily and started taking MSM which I'm not convinced does anything but maybe make the quality of your hair a bit better.  Kept the room and the lighting as consistent as possible, sorry for the weird crop job but he images are pretty good quality taken from an 8.1 megapixel digital camera (best I have)...  Thats about it, good luck everyone.
> 
> After picture is on the left.


 I do see improvement as well. Nice. Now to get all of that filled in completely....

----------


## KeepHoping

Sadly, I don't think it's gonna fill in my temples... I want to get my frontal third densely packed with Rahal or something but I just don't have the money to do so, if I did though I'd probably opt to do that and just stick to treatments for a while, I think that would work fine for me.  Sucks that it's so expensive.

I'll do another comparison pic in a while, maybe late december or sometime in january after I get a haircut just to see if there is further improvement.

----------


## hellouser

> Sadly, I don't think it's gonna fill in my temples... I want to get my frontal third densely packed with Rahal or something but I just don't have the money to do so, if I did though I'd probably opt to do that and just stick to treatments for a while, I think that would work fine for me.  Sucks that it's so expensive.
> 
> I'll do another comparison pic in a while, maybe late december or sometime in january after I get a haircut just to see if there is further improvement.


 I'm in the same shitty spot as you. My temples and hairline has been decimated and the hairs at the very edge of my hairline are quite thin, not a lot of density either. My hairstylists did mention she saw a LOT of velus hairs in my temples but I doubt anything will happen to them. Density wise I seem to be 'OK' up top but if I could get about 1,600 - 1,800 grafts on my hairline and temples I'd be really happy.

I'm tempted to try out Finasteride and see what it can do to the temples... either that or Dutasteride but I know both are dangerous. I'm getting desperate.

----------


## Conpecia

> I'm tempted to try out Finasteride and see what it can do to the temples... either that or Dutasteride but I know both are dangerous. I'm getting desperate.


 i was in the same boat and it dawned on me that the depression and anxiety i was feeling were, in my opinion, outweighing the risk of sides on AAs. i got on dutasteride in august at .5mg 3x a week and i think i'm starting to see some results. i've bumped the dutasteride up to eod the past couple weeks and have had ZERO side effects other than increased libido. strongly, strongly recommend that you give it a shot.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> I'm in the same shitty spot as you. My temples and hairline has been decimated and the hairs at the very edge of my hairline are quite thin, not a lot of density either. My hairstylists did mention she saw a LOT of velus hairs in my temples but I doubt anything will happen to them. Density wise I seem to be 'OK' up top but if I could get about 1,600 - 1,800 grafts on my hairline and temples I'd be really happy.
> 
> I'm tempted to try out Finasteride and see what it can do to the temples... either that or Dutasteride but I know both are dangerous. I'm getting desperate.


 We had a patient in yesterday who has many high Norwoods on both his mother and father's side.  He has great hair at 40.  In fact it's pretty amazing.  Most likely due to genetic good fortune.  He did have 4,000 FUE grafts over the last ten years, but that would be like a few drops in the bucket if he were headed for a Norwood 6.  It certainly doesn't hurt to try safe treatments.  He told me, he alternates shampoos.  He uses Hair Cycle shampoo for a week, switches to Nioxin for a week and uses Nizoral one morning, then repeats the cycle.  He told me he mixes Minoxidil with Propecia and Avodart and applies it topically.  I asked Dr. Cole about that and he thinks there may not be enough absorption through the skin for that to be effective.  Just thought I would pass that along.  Perhaps, he just lucked out and inherited the good hair of a distant relative.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
I am not a doctor and the content of my posts are my opinions, not medical advice.
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.  Ask for Chuck

----------


## Pentarou

> I'm tempted to try out Finasteride and see what it can do to the temples... either that or Dutasteride but I know both are dangerous. I'm getting desperate.


 I advise trying fin, seeing your circumstances. At worst you'd maintain as-is (see the 10 year finasteride study), at best it'd give a boost to the other treatments you're using, as there would be less follicle-wrecking DHT swimming through your system.

Don't think too much if at all about side effects or you'll never start the treatment, side effects are a possibility with anything, minoxidil certainly as well, it comes with the territory unfortunately: we're adults and know that everything has risks, even if statistically unlikely. And statistically speaking, side effects are the exception, not the norm, and certainly aren't inevitable.

Don't contemplate dutasteride now, certainly not as a first port of call. I'd wait and see if GSK get it through phase III for hair loss.

----------


## FearTheLoss

it's funny how a bunch of forum members are finding better treatments and providing better pictures than ACTUAL PAID SCIENTISTS...unreal


but this dermarolling is huge

----------


## StayThick

> I'm in the same shitty spot as you. My temples and hairline has been decimated and the hairs at the very edge of my hairline are quite thin, not a lot of density either. My hairstylists did mention she saw a LOT of velus hairs in my temples but I doubt anything will happen to them. Density wise I seem to be 'OK' up top but if I could get about 1,600 - 1,800 grafts on my hairline and temples I'd be really happy.
> 
> I'm tempted to try out Finasteride and see what it can do to the temples... either that or Dutasteride but I know both are dangerous. I'm getting desperate.


 I'm getting desperate myself, but I just can't come to terms with taking FIN. It was so damaging to my body and mind when I was on it. That being said I still sometimes say why not start at a very lose and go from there...but I just recall the sides back when I was on it and I just can't do it.

It's sad. I'll go bald before reliving what Propecia did to me. Hate this curse. I'll be looking to book with Rahal in the next 6 months.

----------


## saintsfan92344

5th roll with pics, no numbing cream B#tches lol, applied more pressure this time, not as much blood as I thought with that much more pressure, felt it deeper in my scalp though after looking at the pics I definitely bled more this week, 1st pic was last week 2nd a few minutes ago, definitely pulled a lot of hair out though, dammit

----------


## mmmcoffee

> I advise trying fin, seeing your circumstances. At worst you'd maintain as-is (see the 10 year finasteride study), at best it'd give a boost to the other treatments you're using, as there would be less follicle-wrecking DHT swimming through your system.


 No, worst case, continue to lose hair...

----------


## StayThick

> 5th roll with pics, no numbing cream B#tches lol, applied more pressure this time, not as much blood as I thought with that much more pressure, felt it deeper in my scalp though after looking at the pics I definitely bled more this week, 1st pic was last week 2nd a few minutes ago, definitely pulled a lot of hair out though, dammit


 Now that's a rolling session if I could say so myself. Wow.

Almost looks like a post-op mega FUE transplant. Well-Done man. Hope you see some regrowth from these great dermarolling sessions. Keep us posted.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> 5th roll with pics, no numbing cream B#tches lol, applied more pressure this time, not as much blood as I thought with that much more pressure, felt it deeper in my scalp though after looking at the pics I definitely bled more this week, 1st pic was last week 2nd a few minutes ago, definitely pulled a lot of hair out though, dammit


 This can't be good for the follicles..is everyone else getting this much blood?

----------


## saintsfan92344

everytime I roll I get more blood, besides I am getting half as much as some guys at ***

----------


## JDW

> 5th roll with pics, no numbing cream B#tches lol, applied more pressure this time, not as much blood as I thought with that much more pressure, felt it deeper in my scalp though after looking at the pics I definitely bled more this week, 1st pic was last week 2nd a few minutes ago, definitely pulled a lot of hair out though, dammit


 wow fair play, I think I'll start going a bit harder. I noticed a few posters on *** properly going to town on their heads as well!

----------


## Pentarou

Roll call of anyone still in the rolling game, please guys?

----------


## win200

I'm still in the game.  Only on my 4th session.  Hard to tell if it's working; I'm also on fin and minoxidil, just started Avodart.  Any regrowth would probably be nestled behind my transplanted hair.

----------


## Pentarou

I didn't see anything until my 8th session at least, and only then vellus hair. This seems to be like using fin, Avodart, minox etc, as in it will take time to get any progress...

----------


## saintsfan92344

I will be doing my 6th roll sunday, using minox, no results other than shedding but hopefully I will have a fro by summer

----------


## JDW

Back in at week 6 after having to take a few weeks out.

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

i have been in 7th roll i have very good results

----------


## LevonHelms

Still in, 18wks? I'm seeing continued results, but very slowly.

----------


## Pentarou

I'm going to push this out to the 6 months point, so approx. double the 12 weeks described in the trials. Possibly even further. It's very slow going, this game. I can fully believe the regrowth in the photos in the original journal article, just not in the timeframe described.

----------


## saintsfan92344

how about pics guys, I am on my 6th roll, nothing but shedding so far, which may be good ? who knows

----------


## inbrugge

Just dropping in. I was going through the earlier discussions here.

Around page 60, there were some quotes of wounding leading to hair growth.

I can surely confirm this. I had very severe sunburn on my shoulders when I was 15. Afterwards, I begun to grow strands of very dark hairs on there (different than other body hairs. very dark and prominent).

Also, I've purchased a roller as well. I will begin dermarolling as soon as I start a Minox treatment. Still trying to find an ethanol-free one 2 months down the road  :Big Grin:

----------


## Pate

I'm 7 weeks in now and definitely seeing some results.

I've got fine but pigmented hairs growing in around my hairline, up to about 10mm out. I can count them so far - there are about six on my left temple and two on my right. But they definitely were not there before.

But this is more growth on the hairline than I've ever had before, so I'm convinced there is something to this. The most I ever got from minox alone before was slightly longer vellus. These are pigmented.

In addition, shedding is way, way down. About 80% down by my estimate from counting shed hairs.

All in all, guys, I think this is by far the best results we've had in any community trial on this site. In fact it's pretty much the ONLY trial we've had where anyone's got real results, even if they do currently lag behind those reported in the trial.

I am going to continue this for at least six months, to give the hairs that are developing now the chance to go through another full cycle. That should tell me whether they're getting thicker or whether this is as far as they're going to go.

I had absolutely no expectations going into this, but I'm happy to say I'm a convert.

----------


## PrettyFly83

Haven't posted here in a while.

Left Temple 6 month update

6 Month update:
Age: 30
Type of hair loss: Before dermarolling NW6,
Complete hair loss regimen:
        Minoxidil Kirkland 2x/day 7 months
        Niz shampoo 2x/week
        Dermarolling 1x/week (4 months 0.5mm, now 2 months 1.5mm)
        1gram Vita C and 1gram MSN daily 

Brand of dermaroller: Generic 192 needle, 1.5 mm
Rolling frequency: Once a week (Friday evening) for about 8-10 minutes. Some blood spots but not a huge amount.
Weeks into treatment: 6 months total. 4 months 0.5mm and 2 month 1.5mm 

Picture is 6month on left temple

Results: SLOWLY filling in bald areas, thickening of vellus, hairline still battling

----------


## SolarPowered Man

> Haven't posted here in a while.
> 
> Left Temple 6 month update
> 
> 6 Month update:
> Age: 30
> Type of hair loss: Before dermarolling NW6,
> Complete hair loss regimen:
>         Minoxidil Kirkland 2x/day 7 months
> ...


 Amazing results! Keep up the good work  :Smile:

----------


## saintsfan92344

The study was 12 weeks, the pics of the shaved heads showing growth were at 12 weeks, the hair grown out was I think 8 months, I think at the 12 week point the most hope we can have is like prettyfly, hair just starting to grow and if you have hair maybe a little thicker healthier hair.
 in my case I have less than when I started but I do think what I have is healthy, I am sure shock loss like with a hair transplant is going to happen to some hair.  I don't expect to see any results till 12-16 weeks if I see them at all

----------


## saintsfan92344

prettyfly to have hair being regown is incredible, and they look dark, are you getting any velous or all terminal

----------


## fred970

OK I'm hopping back, I rolled during one month before but stopped because I was waiting for results.

I will follow the study to the letter.

----------


## Pentarou

> OK I'm hopping back, I rolled during one month before but stopped because I was waiting for results.
> 
> I will follow the study to the letter.


 Do it bro! It's not a cure or anything, but you'd be surprised what you can see slowly happening. You will get used to the pain, take it from a very pain-averse guy. Good luck.

----------


## Pentarou

> OK I'm hopping back, I rolled during one month before but stopped because I was waiting for results.
> 
> I will follow the study to the letter.


 Good on you bro! It's worth the pain, believe me. Just remember that you will need consistentcy and patience. Just as with the other existing treatments, really.

----------


## awesome1

Got my roller almost 2 months ago, have been decreasing frequency to once a month of treatments based on the healing process timeline and recommendations from forums where people have been using it for skin care.  The only other major thing in my regiment is 1% keto (and daily vitamins and ginko biloba),  I'm not sure if I've seen regrowth yet or if they're broken hairs, I'm also noticing many vellus hairs where the hair is thin enough to spot em, but I'm not sure if that's a new development.  I've been on keto shampoo 3 months now.  

I'm cautiously optimistic,  whats frustrating is my thinning crown is far back enough I have difficulties gauging how bad it really looks most the time.

----------


## ryan555

With all this talk about pain and photos of bloody scalps, I wonder if you guys are doing this incorrectly.  I've had two very well-known doctors dermaroll me and it was neither painful (mild discomfort, I'd say) and definitely no blood.

----------


## Tanner84

> Haven't posted here in a while.
> 
> Left Temple 6 month update
> 
> 6 Month update:
> Age: 30
> Type of hair loss: Before dermarolling NW6,
> Complete hair loss regimen:
>         Minoxidil Kirkland 2x/day 7 months
> ...


 Great to see your results! I'm almost 30, and I am going to do a series of scalp peels first, then start the derma-rolling plus minoxidil regimen - I'll get some before and after pictures as well. Your pics are extremely encouraging. Thanks!

----------


## Chromeo

> With all this talk about pain and photos of bloody scalps, I wonder if you guys are doing this incorrectly.  I've had two very well-known doctors dermaroll me and it was neither painful (mild discomfort, I'd say) and definitely no blood.


 Your doctors are doing this incorrectly for this purpose.

----------


## ryan555

> Your doctors are doing this incorrectly for this purpose.


 One of them (Dr Greco in Florida) actually showed me the study and it didn't appear they were rolling their scalps into a bloody mess.  Where are you information that says you need to bleed for this to be effective?

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> With all this talk about pain and photos of bloody scalps, I wonder if you guys are doing this incorrectly.  I've had two very well-known doctors dermaroll me and it was neither painful (mild discomfort, I'd say) and definitely no blood.


 Its all about needle lengths. 0.5mm will not draw blood. 1.5mm will. End of story.

----------


## Chromeo

> One of them (Dr Greco in Florida) actually showed me the study and it didn't appear they were rolling their scalps into a bloody mess.  Where are you information that says you need to bleed for this to be effective?


 Those who produced the study were contacted and admitted that "mild erythema" was a misleading term and that subjects regularly bled.

You need to actually wound the skin sufficiently for the process to begin. Why do you think people didn't see this kind of regrowth when rolling with 0.5 mm needles? It's because those needles are not really long enough to achieve the required amount of wounding. 

I'm not saying you need to absolutely massacre your head like some people are doing, that seems like overkill to me. But you certainly should be rolling hard enough with needles of a sufficient length to at least draw some blood. Otherwise I would suggest you're half-assing it and the results won't be all that impressive, if noticeable at all.

----------


## awesome1

I have medium length hair (for a guy anyway) and it's difficult getting the top of my scalp done with a 540 roller, dunno if it'd be any easier with a 192 roller, I get some bleeding, but most of it is on the temples, where it's easier to get the roller.  Kinda tough if I'm getting it on the crown, but I'm definitely super sensitive across the scalp the next few days so I imagine I'm doing fine.  I definitely break a lot of hairs with it every roll, another reason I've reduced frequency of rolls.  (It's also made me confused whether I see real regrowth or just broken hairs now)

I hope I'm still getting my scalp sufficiently, my crown is what worries me most.   I'm tempted to spend a little more on a 192 but am not sure if it will be a dramatic enough difference.  Anyone used both kinds and have noticed much difference?  People say the 540 causes the "bed of needles" effect but I haven't heard that from anyone who's actually reported to try both. 

I can feel it sink into the flesh on my temples (god it's weird), but don't get the same sensation at the crown, where there's more hair in the way.

----------


## cichlidfort

Here's a simple rule of thumb- no pain, no gain. You better bleed and your scalp better be red otherwise you're NOT doing it properly. Also, doing it once a month is not enough.

----------


## awesome1

On what basis?  Thumbing around skin care forums people scoff at people doing treatments more than once a month, purporting that it is far too often for collagen induction to work effectively.  I'm not saying neither of us are without burdens of proof, but when you make claims like that, what is the basis?

----------


## Hicks

Has anyone experienced a dulling DR?  I wonder what the life expectancy is of a DR.

----------


## chimera

> Got my roller almost 2 months ago, have been decreasing frequency to once a month of treatments based on the healing process timeline and recommendations from forums where people have been using it for skin care.  The only other major thing in my regiment is 1&#37; keto (and daily vitamins and ginko biloba),  I'm not sure if I've seen regrowth yet or if they're broken hairs, I'm also noticing many vellus hairs where the hair is thin enough to spot em, but I'm not sure if that's a new development.  I've been on keto shampoo 3 months now.  
> 
> I'm cautiously optimistic,  whats frustrating is my thinning crown is far back enough I have difficulties gauging how bad it really looks most the time.


 I don't know. Yeah, guys using the dermaroller say you should not use it more than once a month... but we don't know if that is enough for us... remember, all those people use the dermaroller as a therapy for the induction of new collagen... welll, we don't. We do it because of the growth factors released during wounding... waiting a month may very well be enough for those who are just waiting to heal... as all those on skin-care therapy... but is the promotion of the factors asociated with wounding once a month enough for us?

----------


## chimera

> I have medium length hair (for a guy anyway) and it's difficult getting the top of my scalp done with a 540 roller, dunno if it'd be any easier with a 192 roller, I get some bleeding, but most of it is on the temples, where it's easier to get the roller.  Kinda tough if I'm getting it on the crown, but I'm definitely super sensitive across the scalp the next few days so I imagine I'm doing fine.  I definitely break a lot of hairs with it every roll, another reason I've reduced frequency of rolls.  (It's also made me confused whether I see real regrowth or just broken hairs now)
> 
> I hope I'm still getting my scalp sufficiently, my crown is what worries me most.   I'm tempted to spend a little more on a 192 but am not sure if it will be a dramatic enough difference.  Anyone used both kinds and have noticed much difference?  People say the 540 causes the "bed of needles" effect but I haven't heard that from anyone who's actually reported to try both. 
> 
> I can feel it sink into the flesh on my temples (god it's weird), but don't get the same sensation at the crown, where there's more hair in the way.


 Everyone complaining about tangled and broken hairs is on 540 neddles... go to 192, it won't mess with your hair... well, it will, but it will be much less than the 540...

----------


## chimera

I been rolling once every two weeks. this is working for me, no doubt about it. As I said before, my results are completely pathetic... very small hairs... but they are everywhere on my hairline... an I bet my whole scalp is the same (but I still have too much hair to see it there)... this hairs are so, so small, but they were not there, and I have been using minox for two years... so I know this is the dermaroller in action... I don't really think this hairs will be as long and wide as normal hair, and if they do, I'm sure it will take a a lot of hair cycles before that happens (if it happens at all)... if they keep growing at the same rate... it will probable take a couple of years...

Anyway, I don't really care about those small hairs... I care about the hair on my scalp which is still in good shape... If the dermaroller is giving me all these small new hairs everywhere, I'm sure it must be doing something for my existing hair too.. and that's what I want... to save what I still got...

I stopped rolling for more than a month... I just got lazy... but I'm going at it again starting january first at full force... I'm going to do it for a full year...

Yeah guys... this is paifully slow... even if the study said so, don't mind if you don't see any results at the three month mark, in fact, you probably won't... but got to keep rolling...

----------


## saintsfan92344

> I don't know. Yeah, guys using the dermaroller say you should not use it more than once a month... but we don't know if that is enough for us... remember, all those people use the dermaroller as a therapy for the induction of new collagen... welll, we don't. We do it because of the growth factors released during wounding... waiting a month may very well be enough for those who are just waiting to heal... as all those on skin-care therapy... but is the promotion of the factors asociated with wounding once a month enough for us?


  As far as length of time between rolls, no one knows what is best yet, I have been doing it 1x a week for 6 weeks till bloody, this last week my head where I roll itched so bad for the whole week, I was going nuts. it wasn't a shed itch either, if it was and I shed that bad I wouldn't have any hair left. I may wait 10 days between rolls, maybe I wasn't giving it enough time to heal

----------


## inbrugge

Quick question.

Why go with 1.5 mm? If deeper is better, I can handle 2.5 mm.

BTW, I did my first dermaroll last week. I liked it. Even though I drew no blood, I think that's ok for the first roll. I will be going in harder next time. 

I'm hopeful and looking forward to the next roll. Now if I could begin a Minox treatment, then it's only a matter of finding which route I want to take in terms of DHT blocking. (Too many alternatives).

----------


## JulioGP

> Hey all my Balding Brothers and Sister
> 
> As promised here are my 3 month update photo's which I'm posting for all to gauge the effectiveness of this treatment.
> 
> To summarize, I haven't changed anything in my regime from my first posts on page 6-8 of this thread as I didnt want to blur any results by changing techniques. My understanding was the original purpose of this thread  by Hellouser was either to replicate the study or undertake a regime with slight variations on the technique. I'm planning to stick with my regime until I see someone yield better results with theirs. In no way am I saying mine was better than the studies, I had just been doing it for 2 months so thought to carry on.
> 
> Ive tried to match close ups over various area's of my shiny NW6 head to compare each area individually. Sorry if they are not exactly correctly positioned as these were all taken with an  Galaxy SIII but I think they show enough detail.
> 
> Would like to hear everyone views on them, whether there has been any progress. Be gentle with your comments please, this is my head after all
> ...


 Very good results!

----------


## JDW

Nice improvement man, definitely hairs sprouting there

----------


## JulioGP

I do not know if you should apply these vitamins in the head.

----------


## kissmyscalp

You say 0.5 is not fine, but PrettyFly83 use 0.5 and got the best results I've seen. 
(sorry for bad english)

----------


## Dav7

Where do you buy these and exactly what else is needed? Also any links/ tips on how to work this thing?

----------


## chimera

> You say 0.5 is not fine, but PrettyFly83 use 0.5 and got the best results I've seen. 
> (sorry for bad english)


 He started on 0.5 but now he is on 1.5 mm...

----------


## Dav7

> CB!!
> 
> Man, if the dermarolling trial is legit and CB proves to be at least half as good as it is on paper, imagine the results when combined!


 What is CB?

----------


## baldymcgee

> I been rolling once every two weeks. this is working for me, no doubt about it. As I said before, my results are completely pathetic... very small hairs... but they are everywhere on my hairline... an I bet my whole scalp is the same (but I still have too much hair to see it there)... this hairs are so, so small, but they were not there, and I have been using minox for two years... so I know this is the dermaroller in action... I don't really think this hairs will be as long and wide as normal hair, and if they do, I'm sure it will take a a lot of hair cycles before that happens (if it happens at all)... if they keep growing at the same rate... it will probable take a couple of years...
> 
> Anyway, I don't really care about those small hairs... I care about the hair on my scalp which is still in good shape... If the dermaroller is giving me all these small new hairs everywhere, I'm sure it must be doing something for my existing hair too.. and that's what I want... to save what I still got...
> 
> I stopped rolling for more than a month... I just got lazy... but I'm going at it again starting january first at full force... I'm going to do it for a full year...
> 
> Yeah guys... this is paifully slow... even if the study said so, don't mind if you don't see any results at the three month mark, in fact, you probably won't... but got to keep rolling...


 The study had to be flawed in some way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but not a single person in this "community trial" has seen results anything like in the study.

----------


## chimera

> The study had to be flawed in some way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but not a single person in this "community trial" has seen results anything like in the study.


 But of course it is flawed... in fact, I myself have said so many times through this thread... 


Yet... I'm seeing results... far from those the study presented, but still...

----------


## JulioGP

Hi Hellouser, congratulations for performing tests that comes with Rolldads.

I have some doubts that use the Dermarolling. You are using only 1 x per week. Once you do use and "hurt" the scalp, apply as a topical solution after that? Because I think that would burn, because most topical products (Minoxidil, for example) have alcohol in their composition.

----------


## saintsfan92344

> But of course it is flawed... in fact, I myself have said so many times through this thread... 
> 
> 
> Yet... I'm seeing results... far from those the study presented, but still...


 How long have you been rolling, i just did #7. Using minox. Been shedding since the 3rd week but I may be noticing some regrowth in the front and top but temples are thinner. It kind of looks a little more filled in. Waiting to see if it holds or falls out. I buzz with a 1mm.

----------


## kissmyscalp

How to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTdVOvnBB4

----------


## chimera

> Hi Hellouser, congratulations for performing tests that comes with Rolldads.
> 
> I have some doubts that use the Dermarolling. You are using only 1 x per week. Once you do use and "hurt" the scalp, apply as a topical solution after that? Because I think that would burn, because most topical products (Minoxidil, for example) have alcohol in their composition.


 It does not burn... because you are not supposed to use minoxidil the same day you use the dermaroller... (no, we are not using the dermaroller to increase minoxidil absorption)...





> How long have you been rolling, i just did #7. Using minox. Been shedding since the 3rd week but I may be noticing some regrowth in the front and top but temples are thinner. It kind of looks a little more filled in. Waiting to see if it holds or falls out. I buzz with a 1mm.


 I've been rolling for like four months. I did not see anything unitll like the 14 week or so. I was very disappointed with the study (in fact, I'm still disappointed with it, as according to it, we were supposed to be a ****ing norwood less after just three months) but when I was about to drop out, I started seeing new hairs. But damn!, they are very small, and they grow very slow. Will I get results like those from the study?, I don't know, but if I do, I don't think it will be before 2015...

I did not had any shedd. I never get any shedd from any treatment, not from the dermaroller, not  when I started minox years ago, not when I tried anti-androgens in the past.

In the study, it says that the response was sustainable even after 8 months... so, some guys think that the pictures from the study were taken there, at 8 months... there is no real indication of that on the study, so that is probably bullshit... but I think those results at 8 months it's much more credible... at least accord to what I'm observing...

----------


## chimera

No, I think it was around the 12 week the first time I was able to see something...

----------


## Pentarou

Getting regrowth from the basic Big 3 takes a long time (unless you happen to be a genetic mutant super-responder), this is no different really. I imagine the photographs in the study were of the best/fastest responders to the rollin' treatment.

----------


## hellouser

> Getting regrowth from the basic Big 3 takes a long time (unless you happen to be a genetic mutant super-responder), this is no different really. I imagine the photographs in the study were of the best/fastest responders to the rollin' treatment.


 Definitely, there could have been other (better) cases beyond the 8 months, but thats probably not documented after.

----------


## JulioGP

Thanks for the reply Chimera. 


I don&#180;t know if anyone here saw, but I found a double blind study that explain it and all thinks about Dermarolling, here:

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Thanks for the reply Chimera. 
> 
> 
> I don´t know if anyone here saw, but I found a double blind study that explain it and all thinks about Dermarolling, here:
> 
> http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat


 Thats thee study that started the latest trend in rolling, most of us are modeling our rolling based on that

----------


## hellouser

> Thanks for the reply Chimera. 
> 
> 
> I don´t know if anyone here saw, but I found a double blind study that explain it and all thinks about Dermarolling, here:
> 
> http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat


 Um, there's an image from your link on PAGE ONE of this thread.

----------


## kissmyscalp

Looks like we can store this experiment in the snake oil category...

----------


## hellouser

> Looks like we can store this experiment in the snake oil category...


 Or not? Go over to other forums and members are getting results. Even if theyre not, dermarolling DOES help with penetration so you may want to continue the practice.

----------


## kissmyscalp

I don't know, I find this technique a little barbaric, another treatment to add, it coast time, money...

I do not see enough satisfactory results that pushes me to start.

I'm not sure it's worthwhile to invest.

----------


## hellouser

> I don't know, I find this technique a little barbaric, another treatment to add, it coast time, money...
> 
> I do not see enough satisfactory results that pushes me to start.
> 
> I'm not sure it's worthwhile to invest.


 Its a $20 device that you use along with Minoxidil which you should be on regardless. Are you saying you can't afford such a simple device?

Time is no excuse, all the garbage treatments we have available take lots of time.

----------


## chimera

> I don't know, I find this technique a little barbaric, another treatment to add, it coast time, money...


 You can find dermarollers from $4 or $5 on Ebay. Yeah, they are cheap, but they get the job done. And 1 dermaroller should last you at least 2 months. 

It should not take you more than 20 minutes to dermaroll your scalp (you can do it in way less time than that, if you don't mind the pain). I have been able to do it in just 10 minutes, and that's just because I have long hair, If my hair were shorter it would take me like 5 minutes or less. And you are supposed to use the dermaroller just once a week.

Is $2.5 a month too much money for you?...

Are 15 minutes a week to much time for you?..

But yeah, theres no real way to know right now if the bloody pain is worth it or not...  

Anyway, I don't think we will have our definite answer until 2015... I know that sounds awful, but that's just the way it is... or at least that's when I will have absolutely no any doubt left...



... since it seems we will never be able to get our hands on the right CB vehicle, I hope this can buy me at least a little more time...

----------


## JulioGP

It really is very cheap. The only concern is the risk of infection or even inflammation, which could be a disaster for the wires that are still alive.

Do not you think? But the idea is tempting.

----------


## kissmyscalp

Take care ! Ebay & Amazon are full of fake & non-sterilized dermarollers.

I read some press paper about that.

Look this one:

http://renaissance-essentielle.blogs...igne-sure.html

its in french sorry but you can see the differences in pictures between a true dermaroller and a fake. Fake packaging too.

Maybe some people have bad results because crapy dermarollers.

Otherwise, it is certain that there is no risk of damaging the scalp in long term use?
I know wounding is about damaging the scalp, but I'm talking about irreversible damages?

----------


## Pentarou

> It really is very cheap. The only concern is the risk of infection or even inflammation, which could be a disaster for the wires that are still alive.


 As long as you're sensible, and keep your roller and scalp hygienic before and after, infection shouldn't be an issue. It's a risk, yes, but a risk that one can reduce dramatically through some common sense actions.

I've bought my roller from owndoc.com, incidentally, and it's pretty damn good.

----------


## chimera

> Otherwise, it is certain that there is no risk of damaging the scalp in long term use?
> I know wounding is about damaging the scalp, but I'm talking about irreversible damages?


 I'm not concerned about damagin the scalp because of long term use... that is not a problem, dermarollers are safe in that regard...

But I'm concerned about how often we are doing it. We can use the dermaroller for years, but I odon't think we should use the dermaroller "that often" for years. 
Shorter needles are not a problem, but 1.5 is never recommended more than once a month...

----------


## Hicks

> I'm not concerned about damagin the scalp because of long term use... that is not a problem, dermarollers are safe in that regard...
> 
> But I'm concerned about how often we are doing it. We can use the dermaroller for years, but I odon't think we should use the dermaroller "that often" for years. 
> Shorter needles are not a problem, but 1.5 is never recommended more than once a month...


 There's nothing that says 1.5 is the right size. 2.5 might be more effective.  Yes 1.5 was in the study. Did they try 2 or 2.5? Why 1.5? An educated guessbased on their research. So that's what you do. Research and go with a length and frequency you guesstimate would be the most effective. Then let us know your results.

----------


## saintsfan92344

> There's nothing that says 1.5 is the right size. 2.5 might be more effective.  Yes 1.5 was in the study. Did they try 2 or 2.5? Why 1.5? An educated guessbased on their research. So that's what you do. Research and go with a length and frequency you guesstimate would be the most effective. Then let us know your results.


 I 100% agree with you, I just got a 2mm and am going with that for the next several weeks. this is an experiment, we are conducting our own study

----------


## chimera

> There's nothing that says 1.5 is the right size. 2.5 might be more effective.  Yes 1.5 was in the study. Did they try 2 or 2.5? Why 1.5? An educated guessbased on their research. So that's what you do. Research and go with a length and frequency you guesstimate would be the most effective. Then let us know your results.


 That's not what I meant at all ... I am not talking about which is the right size for our "experiment", I am not talking about which size would give us the best results. I am talking about the safety. What I am trying to say is that at 1.5 the dermaroller acts different than a 0.2 or 0.5, It not the same kind of damage on the skin, and the response of tissue is also diferent. Going that deep, that often, could be very agressive for the skin on athe long term.

But yeah... it is truem that is just a guess. There's a lot of info saying it is safe, and there's a lot of info saying it is not... so, who knows?

----------


## JulioGP

Guys, now answer me one thing:

Using the example of dermaroller that came to be discussed here in the forum (since 2006 has heard from him in this space and nothing proved in favor), a "job" posted here shows a very favorable statistics in numeric prism. 

*Why then in practice it does not become routine and bald all the world, or at least a 66.45% return to get hairy?* Why in dermatology clinics or trichology is not routine?

----------


## Chromeo

> I don't know, I find this technique a little barbaric, another treatment to add, it coast time, money...
> 
> I do not see enough satisfactory results that pushes me to start.
> 
> I'm not sure it's worthwhile to invest.


 Invest a few more years in balding, then.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Chromeo

Remember guys, the "after" pictures were not taken after 3 months, so don't get your knickers in a twist when you don't have a full head of hair after 12 weeks. Be realistic and stick with it. 

Man up & roll on.

----------


## Hicks

> That's not what I meant at all ... I am not talking about which is the right size for our "experiment", I am not talking about which size would give us the best results. I am talking about the safety. What I am trying to say is that at 1.5 the dermaroller acts different than a 0.2 or 0.5, It not the same kind of damage on the skin, and the response of tissue is also diferent. Going that deep, that often, could be very agressive for the skin on athe long term.
> 
> But yeah... it is truem that is just a guess. There's a lot of info saying it is safe, and there's a lot of info saying it is not... so, who knows?


 I think we're on the same page I just can't explain myself.  Yeah I DR every week for about 6 weeks now I go once every 3 weeks.  However I do use a massage ball about 2-3 times a week.  I'm all about breaking up scar tissue.  Might not get as deep as a DR but that's my experiment. Google Graston Technique.  I also use Coconut oil for the healing properties and conditioner. Even though we still might have follicles that do not grow I find it extremely difficult to think we could or anyone could bring them back to life (It's like a dead arm or foot coming back to life).  Maybe minianturized hair might stand a chance to become normal hair or dormant hair to activate growth sooner? Again my experiment is all about breaking scar tissue and increaseing blood flow to the area by moderate wounding. I'm on the Big 3, this is my one year mark so my results on DR might not be accurate compared to others.

----------


## chimera

> Guys, now answer me one thing:
> 
> Using the example of dermaroller that came to be discussed here in the forum (since 2006 has heard from him in this space and nothing proved in favor), a "job" posted here shows a very favorable statistics in numeric prism. 
> 
> *Why then in practice it does not become routine and bald all the world, or at least a 66.45% return to get hairy?* Why in dermatology clinics or trichology is not routine?


 Well... the only thing I can think of is that... yes, the dermaroller has been used for years. But needles of this size have almost never been used before. And not this often. Dermarollers have been used to increase absorption, but not like this.

----------


## JulioGP

Not sure that Chimera. I see on the internet studies and reports on forums almost 10 years ago.

I think it was a discovery of the century, we would have several hairy people around the world.

I hope it works this trial here, but I think I've seen this "movie" before.

----------


## JulioGP

Hellouser, 

As it was you who started this topic, I would like to know if you have photos of your BEFORE and AFTER.

I saw that you are applying the Dermarolling for several months now, but have not seen your photos with the results, just other users.

Do you have?

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser, 
> 
> As it was you who started this topic, I would like to know if you have photos of your BEFORE and AFTER.
> 
> I saw that you are applying the Dermarolling for several months now, but have not seen your photos with the results, just other users.
> 
> Do you have?


 I haven't taken any photos. I don't feel that I've made enough progress to share any pictures.

----------


## kissmyscalp

> Invest a few more years in balding, then.


 Ok, show me your awesome results, I'm curious!

----------


## JulioGP

> I haven't taken any photos. I don't feel that I've made enough progress to share any pictures.


 Thanks for the reply.

How long you've been doing applications Dermarolling? Makes 5 months that this Trial was created.

You do not feel any significant improvement? Nothing at all?

I searched all over 200 pages for the results, but I think we still have a lot of people who started the trial and has not shared the results.

I hope that soon the staff can give that feedback.

----------


## Julian P

> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I searched all over 200 pages for the results, but I think we still have a lot of people who started the trial and has not shared the results.
> 
> I hope that soon the staff can give that feedback.


 This thread was posted originally to share results, but it got quiet over there. I guess it got lost because it's a results-only thread, and doesn't get a lot of posts because of that. 
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14317 
Results from Knockin on NW4 look good, and those from medion1 as well (clear results for being 8 weeks in, but nothing spectacular).
Some pretty good results were posted somewhere in this forum, but I'm not going to spend my whole evening searching for them.

----------


## JulioGP

> This thread was posted originally to share results, but it got quiet over there. I guess it got lost because it's a results-only thread, and doesn't get a lot of posts because of that. 
> http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14317 
> Results from Knockin on NW4 look good, and those from medion1 as well (clear results for being 8 weeks in, but nothing spectacular).
> Some pretty good results were posted somewhere in this forum, but I'm not going to spend my whole evening searching for them.


 friend

I even accessed this link, but I don´t saw so many results. It seems that a lot more people started this trial, but only saw some bloody heads. 1 or 2 positive feedbacks.

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> How long you've been doing applications Dermarolling? Makes 5 months that this Trial was created.
> 
> You do not feel any significant improvement? Nothing at all?
> 
> I searched all over 200 pages for the results, but I think we still have a lot of people who started the trial and has not shared the results.
> 
> I hope that soon the staff can give that feedback.


 I have been rolling for 7 weeks, minox for 8, really not enough time to see much increase, i started shedding at 3 weeks and seem to have a shed aprox 4 days post roll, had crazy itching last week, not this week so far. Several guys have stated they started seeing results around 6-7 rolls so i am hoping ij the next couple i may see something.
 One observation is a lot of guys have a lot of flaking skin that are having results, i really dont have that, I think I roll pretty hard and draw blood as seen in the pic i posted so I am wondering why.
 Recently got a 2mm roller for sundays roll, my thinking is maybe i have a thicker scalp? and am not getting in enough even though i bleed. We are conducting an experiment so I might as well go for it

----------


## inbrugge

Just did my 2nd roll this Tuesday. Currently, this is the only treatment I'm administering aside from Regenepure (Nizoral) Shampo. 

I was thinking about waiting 2 werks between each roll, but I got impatient and ready to go another round. Especially after the fact that I went pretty easy on my scalp the 1st round.

This round I pressed harder. It really hurt, but I pushed through it. I don't think I drew blood, but my scalp was red all over. The pain doesn't last, but my scalp did feel a bit sore in the upcoming day.

Also, I've had an increase in shedding afterwards. It seems to stabilize a little now, but for the past 2 days my hair has felt quite weak and I'm losing an increased amount of strands in the shower (seems to be fine during the day, but elevated in the shower). Could be other factors, but could also be dermarolling related.

I can't tell if this is a bad shedding, or the minox type of shedding where the strands are converting phases.

Anyone have any idea about the shedding?

----------


## chimera

> Just did my 2nd roll this Tuesday. Currently, this is the only treatment I'm administering aside from Regenepure (Nizoral) Shampo.


 You mean you are not using minoxidil?, because we don't know if this treatment will work without minoxidil...

----------


## saintsfan92344

I always shed 4 days after, at least the last 3 times, I bleed a good amount though

----------


## JulioGP

Do not remember reading any statement claiming shedding here.

Chimera, from what I read in the studies, the treatment with Dermarolling was to work even without using Minoxidil, with only folicogênese.

I see the staff claim that bleeds a lot. 
A doubt. How long are the wounds in the head? 

You can leave home for work the next day after using the Dermarolling, or everyone will come ask why I'm mutilating myself?

The wounds are visible even after you stop bleeding?

----------


## chimera

> Do not remember reading any statement claiming shedding here.
> 
> Chimera, from what I read in the studies, the treatment with Dermarolling was to work even without using Minoxidil, with only folicog&#234;nese.
> 
> I see the staff claim that bleeds a lot. 
> A doubt. How long are the wounds in the head? 
> 
> You can leave home for work the next day after using the Dermarolling, or everyone will come ask why I'm mutilating myself?
> 
> The wounds are visible even after you stop bleeding?


 Wounding without minoxidil was tried decades ago. They failed to get more thatn just vellus hair.

----------


## chimera

> You can leave home for work the next day after using the Dermarolling, or everyone will come ask why I'm mutilating myself?
> 
> The wounds are visible even after you stop bleeding?


 Wounds are not noticeable the day after, but if you go very hard like me, the redness can be seen still three days after... and yeah people my notice that redness.

But if you don't go crazy, redness will dissapear after a day or so. (I just go harder because I do it every two weeks instead of every week)

----------


## Atum

> Wounds are not noticeable the day after, but if you go very hard like me, the redness can be seen still three days after... and yeah people my notice that redness.
> 
> But if you don't go crazy, redness will dissapear after a day or so. (I just go harder because I do it every two weeks instead of every week)


 With me you could see the red dots where the needles penetrated my head. Maybe that's because i smoke that it doesn't heal as fast, but on the other hand i don't smoke that much.

----------


## kissmyscalp

What you put on the scalp after your session? Anything in particular like Betadine? Water?

----------


## saintsfan92344

I just do a quick wipe with alcohol, then I add minox right after

juliogp I definitely shed from this treatment whether from the minox or shockloss from the rolling

----------


## kissmyscalp

Minox right after? its dangerous man. You can have a heart attack. A doctor said that.

----------


## JulioGP

My friends, 

I searched on the internet about the news of the Dermarolling being reported in some major scientific journal and found nothing. Someone already found it by chance in scientific communication vehicles? Indeed it seems that there are only studies the creator of the method itself, but nothing scientific. I'm not trying to ask anything, but everyone would feel safer if it had been scientifically reported, no?

----------


## Dav7

I have a quick question, are you putting yourself at serious risk of infection with a dermaroller than size been used to often? Also, there would be no medical supervision or doctors etc. who know exactly how to clean the rollers?

Also, could it be that the reason dermarollers were never advertised alongside Rogaine because it could be dangerous and you could be risking infections or side effects from too much rogaine entering the body?

----------


## chimera

> I have a quick question, are you putting yourself at serious risk of infection with a dermaroller than size been used to often? Also, there would be no medical supervision or doctors etc. who know exactly how to clean the rollers?
> 
> Also, could it be that the reason dermarollers were never advertised alongside Rogaine because it could be dangerous and you could be risking infections or side effects from too much rogaine entering the body?


 Probably yes to everything you say. Anyway, I've been almost five months at this and I'm fine, I have not had any trouble... and I think it's enough time for the side effects due to increased absorption to appear, and they did not... and even if I get an infection or something... well, that's not a problem, getting an infection treated is routine work for any health professional...

----------


## chimera

> My friends, 
> 
> I searched on the internet about the news of the Dermarolling being reported in some major scientific journal and found nothing. Someone already found it by chance in scientific communication vehicles? Indeed it seems that there are only studies the creator of the method itself, but nothing scientific. I'm not trying to ask anything, but everyone would feel safer if it had been scientifically reported, no?


 I se you have been searching for a lot of info which I'm sure you ain't going to find, unfurtunately. And you are indeed right for doing so. With so many doubts which there's just no way to answer yet, I don't think you should use the dermaroller, not until a couple of months, to see if any of this lead us nowhere...

----------


## saintsfan92344

I have no issues but I only use half dose, I think prettyfly uses it right after and his results speak for itself

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Minox right after? its dangerous man. You can have a heart attack. A doctor said that.


 no issues

----------


## JulioGP

> I se you have been searching for a lot of info which I'm sure you ain't going to find, unfurtunately. And you are indeed right for doing so. With so many doubts which there's just no way to answer yet, I don't think you should use the dermaroller, not until a couple of months, to see if any of this lead us nowhere...


 That's exactly what I'll do, because so far I think are few scientifically conclusions.

I prescribe a lot, because this type of procedure can cause inflammation of the scalp, take a look at this link:


ATTENTION: ONLY recommend LOOK WHO HAS STOMACH!
http://www.issoebizarro.com/blog/doe...ouro-cabeludo/

----------


## kissmyscalp

OH MY ***** GOD!  :EEK!: 

SO HARD! But nice find! LOL

I don't play the youtube movie, pics are enought!

Ok the name of the disease is "dissecting cellulitis of the scalp". So freaking!

I bought a Dermaroller, I think he will stay in his box!  :Frown:

----------


## Dav7

Out of curiosity, is anybody trying this also contemplating a hair transplant? Would dermarolling be a bad idea before getting a HT, I have a suspicion that it might be.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> That's exactly what I'll do, because so far I think are few scientifically conclusions.
> 
> I prescribe a lot, because this type of procedure can cause inflammation of the scalp, take a look at this link:
> 
> 
> ATTENTION: ONLY recommend LOOK WHO HAS STOMACH!
> http://www.issoebizarro.com/blog/doe...ouro-cabeludo/


 
oh my god, this is actually from derma rolling?

----------


## LevonHelms

What a bunch of weiners.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## hellouser

> oh my god, this is actually from derma rolling?


 Translating the page to English, it looks as if the guy had a very badly infected scalp caused by follicles doing something (more or less, cant remember, translation was off too).

Thats definitely not from dermarolling though, it was something else.

----------


## JulioGP

> oh my god, this is actually from derma rolling?


 Not necessarily. It is basically an inflammation or infection caused by bacteria, which will gradually spreading. At the most, it is a serious disease, and painful too early.

Guys, be careful with this procedure with Dermarolling! Do proper aseptic!

----------


## iwannakeephair1674

Those are some seriously frightening pictures! However in over 3 years of dermarolling my scalp at about ever one and a half weeks I have had no problems. 

I normally let the dermaroller soak in peroxide for over an hour and then put it under the steaming hot faucet right before I use it. But to be extra careful I will add alcohol to the mix for my own ease of mind....bc again, those pictures are freaky!

I'm a believer in the dermaroller but do wonder if there are long term side effects, but these 3 and a half years have been fine with no issues and what I consider good results. 

I have used a 1mm during that time and recently started using a 1.5mm. Im also on fin, keto 2%, lasercomb, prp yearly, however, ive been doing that well before starting dermaroller.

----------


## JulioGP

> Those are some seriously frightening pictures! However in over 3 years of dermarolling my scalp at about ever one and a half weeks I have had no problems. 
> 
> I normally let the dermaroller soak in peroxide for over an hour and then put it under the steaming hot faucet right before I use it. But to be extra careful I will add alcohol to the mix for my own ease of mind....bc again, those pictures are freaky!
> 
> I'm a believer in the dermaroller but do wonder if there are long term side effects, but these 3 and a half years have been fine with no issues and what I consider good results. 
> 
> I have used a 1mm during that time and recently started using a 1.5mm. Im also on fin, keto 2%, lasercomb, prp yearly, however, ive been doing that well before starting dermaroller.


 Over 3 years?

Do you have photos of before and after, to see the results? It really is too long!

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Over 3 years?
> 
> Do you have photos of before and after, to see the results? It really is too long!


 
How do you know, no one does, if he is fine after 3 years then apparently its not too long! not attacking you Julio but we are experimenting

----------


## kissmyscalp

It is possible to have a staph infection with a dermaroller (mine is 0.75 longer)?

I want to try this with Minox and Kéto cream.

----------


## hellouser

The dude in those photos had cellulitis. Its caused by an infection. Here's more info on that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulitis#Causes

If you're going to dermaroll, make sure to keep your rollers as clean as possible. I rinse mine with hot water and use an old toothbrush to get rid of dried up blood from the roller, then leave it in isopropanol 99&#37; overnight.

----------


## iwannakeephair1674

> Over 3 years?
> 
> Do you have photos of before and after, to see the results? It really is too long!


 Unfortunately I don't have good before pictures since this was before the forum trial and was doing it for me. However,  I am genuinely curious as to why you think 3 years is to long? I'm afraid if I stop I would lose my good results. 

I understand totally if you're skeptical of my results without proof, but all I can do is tell youit has helped greatly in my hairline. I've seen it turn a lot of hairs from vellus, but again this could be from my combo of other treatments including PRP with Dr. Greco.

----------


## JulioGP

Friends , I believe the results of you, even without photos .

Too bad not everyone posted photos to make better monitoring, but I'm sure the fact just looking if there was significant improvement after a few months , you can already notice .

I think three years , is a significant time. In fact , I've used almost all topical products that are on the market . I was making the selection of what worked best for me . Today I know that if something does not work well in 4 months , I can leave for another treatment . In my opinion, no point in insisting on a very treatment that shows no improvement in 4 months .

Maybe that treatment with Dermarolling need a little more time, between 6 months and 1 year . But if there is any improvement in that time , I think it is better to try another treatment , because this is a much more aggressive treatment .

We are all in this fight , until something that really works arise .

Good luck to you , I'll keep watching the topic.

Hugs .

----------


## saintsfan92344

> It is possible to have a staph infection with a dermaroller (mine is 0.75 longer)?
> 
> I want to try this with Minox and Kéto cream.


 A staph infection is a possibility with any open wound so it goes without saying to be as sterile as possible, in 8 weeks I have gone thru 1.5 bottles of iso alcohol, I wipe my scalp with it, soak my roller before after and during rolling. I almost had my knee amputated from a MRSA staph infection its no joke, it started with a sliver of metal in my knee the size of a small splinter 




> The dude in those photos had cellulitis. Its caused by an infection. Here's more info on that:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulitis#Causes
> 
> If you're going to dermaroll, make sure to keep your rollers as clean as possible. I rinse mine with hot water and use an old toothbrush to get rid of dried up blood from the roller, then leave it in isopropanol 99% overnight.


 That was some scary a$$ pics huh

----------


## jasong1

> Wounding without minoxidil was tried decades ago. They failed to get more thatn just vellus hair.


 Don't listen to this guy chimera, if that's the case people with wounds would not grow NEW normal looking hair post surgery. Also where is his trial that was tried decades ago? Minoxidil may not be needed so if you want to go that route than try it, don't listen to people so quick to promote drugs.

----------


## chimera

> Don't listen to this guy chimera, if that's the case people with wounds would not grow NEW normal looking hair post surgery. Also where is his trial that was tried decades ago? Minoxidil may not be needed so if you want to go that route than try it, don't listen to people so quick to promote drugs.


 The thing is, wounding may produce new hair, but the level of wounding we are doing with the dermaroller is not enough...

also: 

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v2...id195671a.html


That's the study I was talking about...


Also, I am not promoting drugs... I don't like them, and I wish we could stop hair loss without them, but I don't know if that's possible...

----------


## jasong1

That study analysed 4 people between 1 week till 2 months also by freezing so should not get that conclusion. Also this study was about removing vellus hairs to see if they would regenerate and they did, normal hairs were not supposed to grow on that part of the face as well, only sparse.

----------


## kissmyscalp

Guys, it is safe to use hair fibers after dermarolling?

----------


## kissmyscalp

Guys, it is safe to use hair fibers after dermarolling?

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Guys, it is safe to use hair fibers after dermarolling?


 Don't see why not, but to be on the safe side I would wait an hour till the holes close

----------


## Pate

Here's my two-month update.

I saw my mother last week and she asked if I'd dyed my hair! She said it looked darker. I told her I haven't but explained about the dermaroller/minox combination. She said it was definitely looking thicker.

So I'll take that as a win. My hair is normally a No. 1 blade so it doesn't take long for any changes to grow through.

On the hairline there are definitely a bunch of fine but pigmented hairs growing through, several dozen on each temple. Too fine to be of any cosmetic significance. It will be interesting to see what happens when these hairs cycle, whether they come back thicker or stay fine.

----------


## JulioGP

> Here's my two-month update.
> 
> I saw my mother last week and she asked if I'd dyed my hair! She said it looked darker. I told her I haven't but explained about the dermaroller/minox combination. She said it was definitely looking thicker.
> 
> So I'll take that as a win. My hair is normally a No. 1 blade so it doesn't take long for any changes to grow through.
> 
> On the hairline there are definitely a bunch of fine but pigmented hairs growing through, several dozen on each temple. Too fine to be of any cosmetic significance. It will be interesting to see what happens when these hairs cycle, whether they come back thicker or stay fine.


 Do you have photos?

----------


## Chromeo

> Friends , I believe the results of you, even without photos .
> 
> Too bad not everyone posted photos to make better monitoring, but I'm sure the fact just looking if there was significant improvement after a few months , you can already notice .
> 
> I think three years , is a significant time. In fact , I've used almost all topical products that are on the market . I was making the selection of what worked best for me . Today I know that if something does not work well in 4 months , I can leave for another treatment . In my opinion, no point in insisting on a very treatment that shows no improvement in 4 months .
> 
> Maybe that treatment with Dermarolling need a little more time, between 6 months and 1 year . But if there is any improvement in that time , I think it is better to try another treatment , because this is a much more aggressive treatment .
> 
> We are all in this fight , until something that really works arise .
> ...


 Wrong wrong wrong. The whole "4 months" thing is silly, many treatments take between 8 months & 1 year to really kick in. You may have found something that would work for you, but jumped off the treatment at 4 months due to impatience. Very typical of the desperation of hairloss sufferers, always looking for the overnight fix.

And how is 3 years too long to be dermarolling? You're not one of these cranks who thinks you can only do 12 weeks because a study only lasted 12 weeks, are you? If this works, we could well be rolling for life, perhaps at a reduced frequency. If it works I ain't getting off it because somebody who doesn't stick with any treatment more than "4 months" says it's "too long". 

Come on, wisen up, people.

----------


## bigentries

> Wrong wrong wrong. The whole "4 months" thing is silly, many treatments take between 8 months & 1 year to really kick in. You may have found something that would work for you, but jumped off the treatment at 4 months due to impatience. Very typical of the desperation of hairloss sufferers, always looking for the overnight fix.
> 
> And how is 3 years too long to be dermarolling? You're not one of these cranks who thinks you can only do 12 weeks because a study only lasted 12 weeks, are you? If this works, we could well be rolling for life, perhaps at a reduced frequency. If it works I ain't getting off it because somebody who doesn't stick with any treatment more than "4 months" says it's "too long". 
> 
> Come on, wisen up, people.


 If the study showed amazing results in at least 80% of the subjects, 12 weeks is enough, the whole point of studies is that they are reproducible, otherwise something is wrong, and many people just don't want to admit it.

This sunday is my last dermarolling session, I lasted around 20 weeks and haven't seen anything worth to comment about.

If you people are right, then in another 4 months I will magically get the results from the photos in this study.

----------


## Pentarou

Pate, I've had exactly the same experience! My mother commented how much darker my hair had gotten recently. Otherwise, small non-cosmetically-significant hairs are sprouting in key areas.

----------


## Atum

Do you guys shave your head with a trimmer before dermarolling? Cause i used pull my hair out with the derma roller.

----------


## Chromeo

> If the study showed amazing results in at least 80% of the subjects, 12 weeks is enough, the whole point of studies is that they are reproducible, otherwise something is wrong, and many people just don't want to admit it.
> 
> This sunday is my last dermarolling session, I lasted around 20 weeks and haven't seen anything worth to comment about.
> 
> If you people are right, then in another 4 months I will magically get the results from the photos in this study.


 Sounds to me like you just don't have the stomach to keep up with this, but good luck to you dude.

----------


## Chromeo

> Do you guys shave your head with a trimmer before dermarolling? Cause i used pull my hair out with the derma roller.


 I keep mine shaved so I don't have this issue. Also, it's easier to see the new hair coming through when the hair is shorter.

----------


## fred970

I'm dermarolling myself, but the hype about it on the forum has become crazy. 

It seems that some sufferers will defend it to the death even if no one gets substantial results.

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Do you guys shave your head with a trimmer before dermarolling? Cause i used pull my hair out with the derma roller.


 I buzz mine to a 1 and still cut/pull hair

Fred I agree with you on the hype, this like other treatments will work great on some not at all on others, its not a miracle cure but I am giving it a good shot and am hoping I am one of the lucky ones

----------


## Chromeo

> I'm dermarolling myself, but the hype about it on the forum has become crazy. 
> 
> It seems that some sufferers will defend it to the death even if no one gets substantial results.


 Yes, it is a bit much. But stick with it, it's the only way to know.

----------


## chimera

Have any of you guys seen the dermaroller thread at ***...?

Damn... I remember that used to be _the_ dermaroller thread...

But now it has become a deranged den of psychos and fanatics... it's just sad.

----------


## fred970

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that about the *** forum.

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Have any of you guys seen the dermaroller thread at ***...?
> 
> Damn... I remember that used to be _the_ dermaroller thread...
> 
> But now it has become a deranged den of psychos and fanatics... it's just sad.


 
Yes there are a lot of fanatics over there a lot of good info also, if you do happen to mention anything negative god help you
  one of the fanatics/ quacks that used to be there may have gotten chased off recently hopefully, although I did get some enjoyment in messing with him a little

----------


## hellouser

> Yes there are a lot of fanatics over there a lot of good info also, if you do happen to mention anything negative god help you
>   one of the fanatics/ quacks that used to be there may have gotten chased off recently hopefully, although I did get some enjoyment in messing with him a little


 Its really just ONE guy thats the fanatic at ***; squeegee. The dude insults everyone and anyone that says something that goes against his theories/opinions. The amount of bullshit he posts is overwhelming and is the #1 reason why that thread gets derailed. Everyone else is normal. Though he does post relevant stuff as well.

----------


## chimera

> Its really just ONE guy thats the fanatic at ***; squeegee. The dude insults everyone and anyone that says something that goes against his theories/opinions. The amount of bullshit he posts is overwhelming and is the #1 reason why that thread gets derailed. Everyone else is normal. Though he does post relevant stuff as well.


 You are completely right. From time to time he may post important information. But his personality is completely toxic, and it has spread to some of the other guys as well. That guy just does not allow any kind of debate.

----------


## bigentries

> Sounds to me like you just don't have the stomach to keep up with this, but good luck to you dude.


 I've been almost 5 months on this.

The study claimed results in 12 weeks

People later started claiming the pics were 8 month pics, after the discontinuation of the treatment.

No one has gotten results even close to those in the study, the best ones have been just decent minox results.

People had the benefit of the doubt at 12 weeks, but right now, it is pretty obvious something is wrong, either the study is fake or everyone has been doing this thing wrong.

----------


## LongWayHome

> Its really just ONE guy thats the fanatic at ***; squeegee. The dude insults everyone and anyone that says something that goes against his theories/opinions. The amount of bullshit he posts is overwhelming and is the #1 reason why that thread gets derailed. Everyone else is normal. Though he does post relevant stuff as well.


 Amen.
Squeegee thinks he's the "Gandalf" of ***, a wizard or something, and everyone else are hobbits.
Doesn't matter what they think, cause he's here to decide for them.
One day he wakes up, reads something about derma-rolling, and says:
"Are you ready for an adventure?" while all the hobbits yell "YES!!".
At start it was actually interesting, but now they became zombies that look for blood. Everyone's trying to show Squeegee that they're "cool" as he's, and the few that say anything else, get ambushed by him.

----------


## Chromeo

> I've been almost 5 months on this.
> 
> The study claimed results in 12 weeks
> 
> People later started claiming the pics were 8 month pics, after the discontinuation of the treatment.
> 
> No one has gotten results even close to those in the study, the best ones have been just decent minox results.
> 
> People had the benefit of the doubt at 12 weeks, but right now, it is pretty obvious something is wrong, either the study is fake or everyone has been doing this thing wrong.


 Yeah, could be. We'll just have to wait and see. Suppose it's good to have people bailing out, could prove whether or not you need to keep on rolling after that initial period. I believe it would have to be an ongoing thing to stop fibrosis creeping back in, but that's just me.

----------


## Borealis

Lost track of how many rolls I've done. I think this is my 14th or 15th maybe. (I do it every two weeks). 

Honestly feel like my hair is thicker, and my hairline is recruiting more and more vellus hairs but there is literally no cosmetic difference from when I started so far.

----------


## bigentries

> Yeah, could be. We'll just have to wait and see. Suppose it's good to have people bailing out, could prove whether or not you need to keep on rolling after that initial period. I believe it would have to be an ongoing thing to stop fibrosis creeping back in, but that's just me.


 People that claimed the pics were 8 at the 8 month mark also claimed it was after discontinuation from the treatment

We don't have to "wait and see" this is the kind of attitude that makes bald guys an easy target for charlatans. People brought up the inconsistencies in the study, like the time length of the pics, from day one and people just chose to ignore it.

Hope I get a miraculous regrowth in 3 months of doing nothing

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Amen.
> Squeegee thinks he's the "Gandalf" of ***, a wizard or something, and everyone else are hobbits.
> Doesn't matter what they think, cause he's here to decide for them.
> One day he wakes up, reads something about derma-rolling, and says:
> "Are you ready for an adventure?" while all the hobbits yell "YES!!".
> At start it was actually interesting, but now they became zombies that look for blood. Everyone's trying to show Squeegee that they're "cool" as he's, and the few that say anything else, get ambushed by him.


 Not everyone over there bows to squeegee, I roll till I bleed and am trying different things as people come up with them. I have had to call squeegee out a couple times and yes he can be a major a$$ at times but he is not afraid to try new things and jump into them so I will give him his props on that. most of the studies he posts are relevant to hairloss and I take what I want from them and what everyone else has to say not just squeegee and apply them as I see fit.
 my take on rolling is I am doing the 12 weeks, then going monthly or 6 weeks, my reasoning is I get a decent shed 4 days after rolling due to what I believe is shockloss, during rolling I cut/pull so many hairs it is very noticeable when I finish so I need a chance for my hair to basically catch up to see if anything is happening. I have 4 more weeks to go

----------


## Pentarou

> Its really just ONE guy thats the fanatic at ***; squeegee. The dude insults everyone and anyone that says something that goes against his theories/opinions. The amount of bullshit he posts is overwhelming and is the #1 reason why that thread gets derailed. Everyone else is normal. Though he does post relevant stuff as well.


 Yeah, very true, that's stopped me registering an account at *** to join the rolling thread(s), that guy's odd and nasty. Some good, intelligent contributors like princess Rambo have been chased away, sadly. At least some guys are posting before/after photos though, sadly lacking elsewhere.

----------


## Chromeo

> People that claimed the pics were 8 at the 8 month mark also claimed it was after discontinuation from the treatment
> 
> We don't have to "wait and see" this is the kind of attitude that makes bald guys an easy target for charlatans. People brought up the inconsistencies in the study, like the time length of the pics, from day one and people just chose to ignore it.
> 
> Hope I get a miraculous regrowth in 3 months of doing nothing


 Unfortunately you do have to wait and see, as there is no way of telling at the moment how things will be at the 8 months mark. 

I also hope you get a miraculous regrowth in 3 months, but it seems unlikely. If you haven't seen anything of note by 20 weeks when others are reporting hair thickening and new hairs coming through, then you're probably not doing it right or perhaps you have other underlying issues you need to address. 

Fingers crossed for you.

----------


## bigentries

> If you haven't seen anything of note by 20 weeks when others are reporting hair thickening and new hairs coming through, then you're probably not doing it right or perhaps you have other underlying issues you need to address.


 Anecdotal reports don't work. People also claimed hair thickening in two weeks with indomethacin this year, look were it lead

The only photographic results I've seen look like pretty average minox results, nothing to brag about

----------


## Chromeo

> Anecdotal reports don't work. People also claimed hair thickening in two weeks with indomethacin this year, look were it lead
> 
> The only photographic results I've seen look like pretty average minox results, nothing to brag about


 True, I try to take most things with a pinch of salt. Regardless of whether anecdotal accounts work for you or not, I'm hearing too many positive reports of this working to personally discredit it. Don't remember hearing much about Indomethacin besides one guy posting a few questionable pics and not much else. I tuned out pretty early, sensing it was BS like most expensive topical treatments tend to be. I'm seeing improvements myself with rolling which I guess is the best evidence one can see. Sorry that it's not working for you at the moment, but I'll be sticking with it. Hope you see improvements or find something else that works for you.

----------


## Pentarou

Are you having any noticeable results from rolling, Chromeo? Only vellus hair for me.

I'm the same with rolling, seeing too many positive accounts (some with photos) to discredit it, and I'm prepared to do it for a while yet, but there's something 'off' with how far off the relatively limited personal results in the community are from those of the original study.

----------


## Chromeo

I'm having lots of short black hairs coming through all over my scalp. They are not as long as my other hairs but they are starting to come though, black and quite thick. I'm hopeful that if this continues I could have a pretty decent result, although I am probably years away from a full recovery, if that is even possible.

I also have my concerns regarding the study, it has bothered me from the start. Firstly they were misleading about the severity of the rolling, then they were misleading about the time-frame between the "before" and "after" pictures. I'm not sure if those were just genuine mistakes or something more dubious. 

To be honest, as time goes on I've been relying more on the word and results photographs of other forum users rather than the study. Perhaps this too is folly on my part. Only time will tell! 

For the time being, I am satisfied that I'm seeing changes and will be sticking with this treatment for the foreseeable.

----------


## Hicks

I DR to break up fibrosis  and increase blood circulation.  Figure scar tissue could of been there sense I started losing hair 7 years ago. Scar tissue is tough.  However I could be completely wrong but that's why I'm rolling and using a massage ball to break up and soften scar tissue. I'll keep doing my routine till June.

----------


## chimera

> I'm having lots of short black hairs coming through all over my scalp. They are not as long as my other hairs but they are starting to come though, black and quite thick. I'm hopeful that if this continues I could have a pretty decent result, although I am probably years away from a full recovery, if that is even possible.
> .


 I'm just the same. And while I'm completely disappointed with the original study... well, what the hell, those new tiny little hairs have make me decide to stick with this untill 2015...

----------


## PinotQ

> I'm having lots of short black hairs coming through all over my scalp. They are not as long as my other hairs but they are starting to come though, black and quite thick. I'm hopeful that if this continues I could have a pretty decent result, although I am probably years away from a full recovery, if that is even possible.
> 
> I also have my concerns regarding the study, it has bothered me from the start. Firstly they were misleading about the severity of the rolling, then they were misleading about the time-frame between the "before" and "after" pictures. I'm not sure if those were just genuine mistakes or something more dubious. 
> 
> To be honest, as time goes on I've been relying more on the word and results photographs of other forum users rather than the study. Perhaps this too is folly on my part. Only time will tell! 
> 
> For the time being, I am satisfied that I'm seeing changes and will be sticking with this treatment for the foreseeable.


 I have completed 12 solid weeks of hard rolling and am now taking a break.  I too have concerns about the study although I don't see the motivation for fraud b/c they aren't selling anything unless they are somehow sponsored by the dermaroller manufacturing industry which I highly doubt.  For now, I choose to chalk much of the apparent inconsistency up to language and the level of professionalism in which the study was documented and written.  Here is my experience:  1) I have had acell/prp and I was told I would see nothing for at least 4 months.  I saw absolutely nothing for 4 months and then benefits started to appear....so I know this takes time. 2) Evaluating the benefits of a treatment is extremely difficult given the natural day to day fluctuation in the cosmetic appearance of hair and the slow and gradual pace of regression or improvement.  For example, from week 1 of DR, my hair immediately looked thicker. Not sure if that is due to increased blood flow to the scalp or what but this effect could be nothing other than cosmetic given how immediate it was and how it seemed to recur after each session.  3) I believe the hairs I have look stronger and thicker than when I started DR but I believe I have fewer hairs.  I do not count hairs each day and I am not saying DR has accelerated my hair loss.  And this is not necessarily a bad thing but I do believe there is a possibility that DR has caused an unnoticeable shed and/or shock loss which would be consistent with positive benefits that have been set in motion.  (I also went back to twice daily applications of minox at about the 6 week mark so this too could account for increased shedding.) 4)  I believe there is no harm in taking a break for up to 6 months if need be in order allow any benefits to take effect and eliminate scalp trauma that could mask at least some of the benefits if in fact they exist.  Given my experience with acell/prp, and assuming the study pics were in deed at the 8 month mark, if I will receive benefits from my 12 weeks of work they have already been set in motion and will not regress for at least another 6 months. 5)  I believe I can see a slight visible improvement at the crown (my worst area).  I can see many new hairs that have consistently been appearing for weeks now at and just behind the hair line.  They are 1/4 to 1/2 inch in length but there is no way for me to tell yet whether they are  hairs coming in stronger due to DR  or hairs coming in weaker as part of natural regression.  I will say that I have not noticed these types of "new" hairs in the past.  I have also seemed to notice more vellus hair but that may just be because I am looking more closely.

So for me the jury is still out and I have guarded optimism.  If all DR did was maintain, I would consider it a very powerful new weapon in the fight against hairloss as we continue to wait for the game changer.

----------


## ryan555

Question - if you guys are penetrating the scalp to the point of drawing blood, aren't you as susceptible to shock loss as from having a hair transplant?  I have been dermarolling for about four weeks and it seems like my hairline has thinned out a little.  Not sure it's related, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

----------


## PinotQ

It is certainly possible.  I don't think any of us know for sure but if the study is legitimate, this is part of the process and we should recover.  I know when I had acell/prp, the doctor rolled extremely hard and ultimately there was a benefit..........of course, this was a 1 time roll as opposed to every week.  This is why I am giving my scalp a rest after 12 weeks until I see what happens.  I don't see much of a down side until I can get a better assessment.

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Question - if you guys are penetrating the scalp to the point of drawing blood, aren't you as susceptible to shock loss as from having a hair transplant?  I have been dermarolling for about four weeks and it seems like my hairline has thinned out a little.  Not sure it's related, but I thought I'd throw it out there.


  I think it is likely, this is what I posted earlier

"my take on rolling is I am doing the 12 weeks, then going monthly or 6 weeks, my reasoning is I get a decent shed 4 days after rolling due to what I believe is shockloss, during rolling I cut/pull so many hairs it is very noticeable when I finish so I need a chance for my hair to basically catch up to see if anything is happening. I have 4 more weeks to go"

----------


## PinotQ

Do you use the 192 needle roller?  I started with the 542 needle roller and it did exactly what you are describing.  But I switched to a 192 needle roller and have had no problems.

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Do you use the 192 needle roller?  I started with the 542 needle roller and it did exactly what you are describing.  But I switched to a 192 needle roller and have had no problems.


 192 needle

----------


## carlsagan

The study says participants were prepared with betadine and saline before the dermarolling process. 

However, it seems like everyone is talking about the pain they are going through, so it doesn't seem like many are using betadine. 

Is there a reason for this? Have people been more/less successful when using betadine?

----------


## chimera

Betadine is used just to prevent infection. It won't do anything againts the pain. And since there are cheaper and easier to get anti-bacterial agents, most people just  bother with betadine. You can just get some alcohol and that's it...

----------


## saintsfan92344

> Betadine is used just to prevent infection. It won't do anything againts the pain. And since there are cheaper and easier to get anti-bacterial agents, most people just  bother with betadine. You can just get some alcohol and that's it...


 as far as pain, I use burn cream, put a heavy coat 1/2 hour before rolling, take a shower and wash it out, and clean my scalp with alcohol along with the roller, takes the pain down 30-50%, still hurts a little

----------


## carlsagan

> as far as pain, I use burn cream, put a heavy coat 1/2 hour before rolling, take a shower and wash it out, and clean my scalp with alcohol along with the roller, takes the pain down 30-50%, still hurts a little


 So they didn't use a numbing agent in the trials? 

My hunch is it doesn't matter, but have people who are using numbing creams been more/less successful with regrowth?

----------


## nliyan25

Is it safe to use both Dermarolling and RU?

----------


## UK_

> Is it safe to use both Dermarolling and RU?


 Is it safe for me to take a shit in the woods?

----------


## nliyan25

> Is it safe for me to take a shit in the woods?


 Ok then.

----------


## chimera

> Is it safe to use both Dermarolling and RU?


 I would wait at least a day before applying RU after the dermaroller, you don't want it going systemic...

----------


## Diesel15

There's been no posts in this thread for a while now so maybe this discussion is dead.  I don't want to dig through the entire thing to find whether or not this was addressed but did anyone here try DR with Folligen or Tricomin?  I've been rolling for about 6 months now.  I started at once a week for the first 4 months and have since scaled back to every 2 weeks.  I've seen *some* improvement but it is very hard to gauge since I'm a diffuse thinner.  I have not been using minox at all though so I'm curious if anyone has tried peptides and has any thoughts/conclusions.

----------


## ChrisM

> There's been no posts in this thread for a while now so maybe this discussion is dead.  I don't want to dig through the entire thing to find whether or not this was addressed but did anyone here try DR with Folligen or Tricomin?  I've been rolling for about 6 months now.  I started at once a week for the first 4 months and have since scaled back to every 2 weeks.  I've seen *some* improvement but it is very hard to gauge since I'm a diffuse thinner.  I have not been using minox at all though so I'm curious if anyone has tried peptides and has any thoughts/conclusions.


  I  used Folligen, Follicure and Tricomin years ago as a shampoo based on the Folligen/ Follicure stated ability to clear away sebum and the Tricomin with its copper peptide binding none of which had a shred of any scientific evidence or clinical trials of import behind them. None of those shampoos did a damn thing and have long since being derided as scams to take the money of men suffering from male pattern baldness. As a result I stopped using them years ago. Regenepure DR was/ is good in the absence of Nizoral from the mainstream market due to faltering in its production/ distribution in various locations but the best is pure prescription  Ketoconazole at 2% without the sodium laurel sulfates that damage the scalp and the hair follicle after continuous use of more than twice a week.

----------


## PinotQ

ChrisM,  How often do you use Ketoconazole 2&#37; and how long due you leave it on your scalp when shampooing?

----------


## PinotQ

ChrisM,  How often do you use Ketoconazole 2% and how long due you leave it on your scalp when shampooing?

----------


## Bocaj

> Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;
> 
> *Skin wound healing and hair growth device*
> Inventors	Masahiro Ogasawara
> Applicant	Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.
> 
> http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en
> 
> Here's one of the results in their patent study:


 
This seems to be tied into that Japanese LED device I posted about at some other place. They now have a home/helmet version: http://www.aderans.ne.jp/hairrepro/campaign/20120229/

Use an online translator for best results  :Cool:

----------


## hellouser

> This seems to be tied into that Japanese LED device I posted about at some other place. They now have a home/helmet version: http://www.aderans.ne.jp/hairrepro/campaign/20120229/
> 
> Use an online translator for best results


 Everything in that link looks like a complete joke, for starters the helmet looks like a Dalek Robot from Dr. Who:

----------


## Bocaj

Actually it's just that first picture and the Japanese characters that make it look goofy. You got excited about that patent...well that's supposedly the kind of tech they were using.

----------


## Seuxin

Argh...i juste order a dermaroller....but a 0.75 :\

----------


## UK Boy

Haha, that Dalek helmet's being sold by Aderans! So they pulled their money from HM and decided to invest it in this kinda shit instead - gotta laugh or I'd cry!

----------


## Bocaj

> Haha, that Dalek helmet's being sold by Aderans! So they pulled their money from HM and decided to invest it in this kinda shit instead - gotta laugh or I'd cry!


 Is the Aderans you're referring to from Japan?

----------


## Bocaj

http://www.aderansresearch.com/ari_clinicupdates.html 

http://www.aderans.com/english/company/history.html 

I don't see a connection..unless I missed it.

Ha..they acquired Hair Club. THAT is funny..although I haven't followed what's going on with that lately.

----------


## Pate

> http://www.aderansresearch.com/ari_clinicupdates.html 
> 
> http://www.aderans.com/english/company/history.html 
> 
> I don't see a connection..unless I missed it.
> 
> Ha..they acquired Hair Club. THAT is funny..although I haven't followed what's going on with that lately.


 Same company. ARI was the research arm of Aderans. But Aderans' board decided to cut ARI's funding, presumably because the results weren't good enough to be commercially viable as a treatment.

ARI are apparently trying to find alternative sources of funding but nobody seems to be too optimistic about that happening.

----------


## Pentarou

> Argh...i juste order a dermaroller....but a 0.75 :\


 Doesn't matter, dermarolling doesn't work anyway. There's zero evidence from the results of rolling on this or any other forum. With the volume of people having tried this and the amount of time since the fad began (over 6 months) you'd expect that there would be at least some positive accounts with photos if the original study was halfway believable.

----------


## Seuxin

Are you sure ?
A lot of people use it ?
And i think absorbtion is better no ???

----------


## Bocaj

> Same company. ARI was the research arm of Aderans. But Aderans' board decided to cut ARI's funding, presumably because the results weren't good enough to be commercially viable as a treatment.
> 
> ARI are apparently trying to find alternative sources of funding but nobody seems to be too optimistic about that happening.


 But one is in Japan..been around for YEARS..the other in the USA.  I guess there has to be a page on that somewhere if there is a connection...

----------


## youngin

> Doesn't matter, dermarolling doesn't work anyway. There's zero evidence from the results of rolling on this or any other forum. With the volume of people having tried this and the amount of time since the fad began (over 6 months) you'd expect that there would be at least some positive accounts with photos if the original study was halfway believable.


 Quit misguiding people. Dermarolling may very well work for some people if you do it correctly and have patience. There's been plenty of proof of that. Look at PrettyFly83 posts on this board. The results are so obvious. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that it doesn't work at all.

----------


## Pentarou

> Quit misguiding people. Dermarolling may very well work for some people if you do it correctly and have patience. There's been plenty of proof of that. Look at PrettyFly83 posts on this board. The results are so obvious. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that it doesn't work at all.


 I followed the study exactly. Bloodied my scalp up properly, used minoxidil daily, etc. Nothing.

If anyone is misguiding people, it's the ones who claim it does work, because there's no evidence other than "it works because I say so". Even prettyfly has disappeared.

----------


## Pentarou

Basically if dermarolling + minoxidil worked even a fraction as well as claimed by the Indian journal article, we'd KNOW. So many guys dermarolled, we'd have dozens of clear, unambiguous success stories if it worked.

----------


## Conpecia

> Basically if dermarolling + minoxidil worked even a fraction as well as claimed by the Indian journal article, we'd KNOW. So many guys dermarolled, we'd have dozens of clear, unambiguous success stories if it worked.


 i agree. i started rolling in august and although there looked to be positive signs around the 7th week nothing has changed since. if it worked like the study we'd definitely have a lot of people posting results. tons of guys are getting more vellus hairs so it may be something that takes just as long to regrow as it did to fall out. but i have to say i'm incredibly disappointed at what i've seen from this treatment.

----------


## hellouser

> Basically if dermarolling + minoxidil worked even a fraction as well as claimed by the Indian journal article, we'd KNOW. So many guys dermarolled, we'd have dozens of clear, unambiguous success stories if it worked.


 It's posts like this that made Squeegee on *** go berserk on the 'naysayers'. Dermarolling didn't do much for me either; my hair is still thin and hairline still decimated.

----------


## Seuxin

Juste buy one...
Disapointed :\ :\

Use ? Or don't use ?

----------


## bigentries

> Basically if dermarolling + minoxidil worked even a fraction as well as claimed by the Indian journal article, we'd KNOW. So many guys dermarolled, we'd have dozens of clear, unambiguous success stories if it worked.


 Basically this. The study claimed figures around 80&#37; with amazing results, we haven't seen a single unchallenged case in a forum member and this time, a lot of us participated since it was a cheap and easy treatment

Science doesn't work on good vibes, thing either work or not, and if they work, they can be replicated

People need to face reality, there are basically two options at the moment:

1. The study was wrong. A possibility since someone claimed the researchers were offering on their clinic. Huge conflict of interest, combined with the photos

2. We are doing something wrong. Another possibility, since the study was somewhat vague from the start.




> Juste buy one...
> Disapointed :\ :\
> 
> Use ? Or don't use ?


 That's your choice man. You already have 6 months of experiences to base your decision.

If you decide to use, please take pics once in while in case you see something

----------


## youngin

If it didn't work for you, I'm just curious...

1. How long did you do it?
2. Did you use betadine?
3. Did you use a numbing cream?
4. Did you wait 24 hours to apply Minox?
5. Are you taking MSM?

...the reason I ask #5 is it seems a few of the people who had success were taking MSM also.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> If it didn't work for you, I'm just curious...
> 
> 1. How long did you do it?
> 2. Did you use betadine?
> 3. Did you use a numbing cream?
> 4. Did you wait 24 hours to apply Minox?
> 5. Are you taking MSM?
> 
> ...the reason I ask #5 is it seems a few of the people who had success were taking MSM also.


 Speaking of MSM... My daughter works at a health food store and brought some Hair, Skin and Nails home.  Buried Treasure makes some decent supplements IMO.  This one doesn't taste so great but may be worth trying.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## bigentries

> If it didn't work for you, I'm just curious...
> 
> 1. How long did you do it?
> 2. Did you use betadine?
> 3. Did you use a numbing cream?
> 4. Did you wait 24 hours to apply Minox?
> 5. Are you taking MSM?
> 
> ...the reason I ask #5 is it seems a few of the people who had success were taking MSM also.


 1. From August 11 to December 31
2. Yes
3. No
4. Yes
5. No, but been on fin for almost 4 years.

If people took MSM then it complicates things, considering some people report growth with it alone

----------


## Pentarou

> If it didn't work for you, I'm just curious...
> 
> 1. How long did you do it?
> 2. Did you use betadine?
> 3. Did you use a numbing cream?
> 4. Did you wait 24 hours to apply Minox?
> 5. Are you taking MSM?
> 
> ...the reason I ask #5 is it seems a few of the people who had success were taking MSM also.


 1. Months, did 14 rolls. 1.5mm roller + bloodshed
2. No; you can't buy that here in the UK.
3. No.
4. Yes.
5. Yes, with zinc and vitamin C. However, MSM has never made my hair grow faster whenever I've used it.

Used Finasteride for years, FWIW.

----------


## Pentarou

*** just locked all their dermarolling threads and will delete any further threads created about the topic. Not good. I'll be first to admit that I don't think dermarolling works as well as the study claims, perhaps not at all, but we all pulled together and gave it a go, whether here or on other forums. Seeing the ability to carry out community teamwork in future jeopardised is not a good thing.

----------


## hellouser

> *** just locked all their dermarolling threads and will delete any further threads created about the topic.


 Squeegee must have just had a heart attack.

----------


## Bocaj

> Squeegee must have just had a heart attack.


 He's probably saying- at least I didn't waste any more time there  :EEK!:

----------


## dan1938

why did they do it? Did it work too well to jeopardize their other products which I find unlikely from the other posts? Or did it take too much attention away from the products they sell? And how can we trust the moderators with the truth of what does and doesn't work if they take it upon themselves to lock threads that have attracted positive attention?







> *** just locked all their dermarolling threads and will delete any further threads created about the topic. Not good. I'll be first to admit that I don't think dermarolling works as well as the study claims, perhaps not at all, but we all pulled together and gave it a go, whether here or on other forums. Seeing the ability to carry out community teamwork in future jeopardised is not a good thing.

----------


## fred970

The 2young guy posted a pictured of his scalp literally butchered.

The admin of the forum was just concerned about the well-being of impressionable young hair loss sufferers who might have tried to do the same.

----------


## clarence

> The 2young guy posted a pictured of his scalp literally butchered.
> 
> The admin of the forum was just concerned about the well-being of impressionable young hair loss sufferers who might have tried to do the same.


 Hahaha what an enchanting guy. So dedicated to find something which works, just hope he doesn't accidentally kill himself while --> NW0 or die trying

----------


## Parsia

> The 2young guy posted a pictured of his scalp literally butchered.
> 
> The admin of the forum was just concerned about the well-being of impressionable young hair loss sufferers who might have tried to do the same.


 Fred , please come on  , Do you enjoy to separate us from each other? Stop 
doing that man , you have reported him like child because of some bloody pics 
of his scalp . Its enough . ! everybody knows what you did. it was a childish behavior.

----------


## bigentries

> The 2young guy posted a pictured of his scalp literally butchered.
> 
> The admin of the forum was just concerned about the well-being of impressionable young hair loss sufferers who might have tried to do the same.


 Yeah, his scalp is literally butchered, pretty scary. I wonder how did he explained to others in his everyday life what was going on

If the thing catches up again at that level of damage, I'm pretty sure someone will end up getting an infection

Anyone knows how long did it take him to get to that point?

----------


## Pentarou

Anyone still on this journey? Seems like the lights have all gone out everywhere on the rolling front.

----------


## fred970

Yeah unfortunately it was a scam. People jumped into it, me included. 800 pages of topics if we count the two forums, 0 convincing result.

----------


## bigentries

> Yeah unfortunately it was a scam. People jumped into it, me included. 800 pages of topics if we count the two forums, 0 convincing result.


 "Scam" is a big word. The study is obviously wrong at this point, and of course there is the possibility of scam if it's verified that the researchers were offering the procedure in their clinic

Too bad, because this thing had the most potential for self-experimentation I've seen in hair loss forums

Now we come the usual stuff, people still dermarolling because a guy showed dubious pictures and a bunch of people with anecdotal evidence swear by it, throw again them getting mad at skepticism, and in a year, as always, we'll make it look like the thing never happened again

And to believe that just three years ago the future seemed so bright with Aderans and Histogen still in the game

----------


## Pentarou

I know bigentries, it's really depressing.

Even if we had new treatments on the horizon, rolling if it worked 'as advertised' would've been a game changer. Regrowing hair with existing treatments is damn near impossible except for the lucky few, so something DIY to roll back miniaturisation, mind blowing.

I'm still surprised that this experiment yielded such sustained commitment and team work amongst this utterly dysfunctional community! Most successful experiment ever in hair loss forum history for lasting more than a week or two.

----------


## Dazza

> I'm still surprised that this experiment yielded such sustained commitment and team work amongst this utterly dysfunctional community! Most successful experiment ever in hair loss forum history for lasting more than a week or two.


 Price and accessibility had a lot to do with this. You could easily pick up a roller from amazon for a few quid rather buying unstable chemicals off a dodgy Chinese website.

----------


## hellouser

> Price and accessibility had a lot to do with this. You could easily pick up a roller from amazon for a few quid rather buying unstable chemicals off a dodgy Chinese website.


 Plus it reduces wrinkles and increases absorption of other topical treatment. Wounding may not work on its own, but the other treatments efficacy is improved.

----------


## Dazza

> increases absorption of other topical treatment. Wounding may not work on its own, but the other treatments efficacy is improved.


 Totally agree. Didn't cots hint at this aswell?

----------


## hellouser

> Totally agree. Didn't cots hint at this aswell?


 Not sure... all remember from him was 'cheesegrater' and '2-5 years'

We all know how the latter went...

----------


## JulioGP

I started making use of the rink. So far all quiet. Here some four months back to talk about the results.

----------


## fred970

I guess this scam finally died off completely.

----------


## hellouser

> I guess this scam finally died off completely.


 Scam?

----------


## fred970

Well maybe it's not the appropriate word, mmmh... Joke?

----------


## hellouser

> Well maybe it's not the appropriate word, mmmh... Joke?


 Uh... dermarolling still has its purposes as it definitely helps penetration of topical treatments.

You're wrong to dismiss dermarolling completely.

----------


## fred970

Penetration of topical treatments? We were already talking about that a decade ago.

Has it ever helped any hair loss sufferer? Nope.

----------


## hellouser

> Penetration of topical treatments? We were already talking about that a decade ago.
> 
> Has it ever helped any hair loss sufferer? Nope.


 Has anything else? All the treatments are crap.

----------


## DesperateOne

Well one thing derma rolling does do is increase hair shaft big time, but you have to do it so often and it's so painful that I question the trade off. What we need is someone to bite the bullet, derma roll really hard and apply minox with fgf-9. 
Who in this forum has nothing to lose but everything to gain.

----------


## fred970

Minoxidil, finasteride and hair transplants.

----------


## Notcoolanymore

I am having my doubts about the effectiveness of dermarolling, but I still do it once a week.  I don't turn my head into hamburger like many though, so I am probably just wasting my time.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Uh... dermarolling still has its purposes as it definitely helps penetration of topical treatments.
> 
> You're wrong to dismiss dermarolling completely.


 I couldn't agree more.  When we step back and look carefully at the treatments that work even minimally like Rogaine, PRP, finasteride, dutasteride, etc., we can get some clues related to the problems causing miniaturized hairs.

I personally think there is something to dermarolling.  I haven't read of any deaths caused by micro needling .  On the other hand there are dangers of excess absorption of certain topicals.

I personally believe that MPB related hair loss is related to the effects of PGD2 inhibiting platelet aggregation.  As mentioned in another thread, miniaturized hair follicles due to MPB have concentrations of prostaglandin D2. On the other hand platelet rich plasma increases the hair shaft diameter of miniaturized hair.

I think what is needed is a study of normal healthy hair cycles. Is there a critical time in normal hair cycles where platelet growth factors play a necessary role in sustaining thick terminal hairs?  If so specifically what growth factors are the most important to hair growth or is it a combination? When one looks at nature, there are instances where optimal timing is important.  For example, Before entering hibernation, animals need to store enough energy to last the entire winter. Larger species become hyperphagic and eat a large amount of food and store the energy in fat deposits.  It's interesting to note that bald scalp has less fat.  Testosterone contributes to thinning of the subcutaneous fat. In women, estrogen prevents thinning of these cushioning tissues, at least until menopause.

The aforementioned are just a few examples of what might stimulate ideas and discussion.  In other words, if bald scalp has less fat, is there any topical when micro needled that could promote fat production?  At this point anyway, before the major breakthrough we all want, I think that a better understanding of what already works even minimally is of value to everyone because the existing treatments can be improved upon.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## HairBane

> I couldn't agree more.  When we step back and look carefully at the treatments that work even minimally like Rogaine, PRP, finasteride, dutasteride, etc., we can get some clues related to the problems causing miniaturized hairs.
> 
> I personally think there is something to dermarolling.  I haven't read of any deaths caused by micro needling .  On the other hand there are dangers of excess absorption of certain topicals.
> 
> I personally believe that MPB related hair loss is related to the effects of PGD2 inhibiting platelet aggregation.  As mentioned in another thread, miniaturized hair follicles due to MPB have concentrations of prostaglandin D2. On the other hand platelet rich plasma increases the hair shaft diameter of miniaturized hair.
> 
> I think what is needed is a study of normal healthy hair cycles. Is there a critical time in normal hair cycles where platelet growth factors play a necessary role in sustaining thick terminal hairs?  If so specifically what growth factors are the most important to hair growth or is it a combination? When one looks at nature, there are instances where optimal timing is important.  For example, Before entering hibernation, animals need to store enough energy to last the entire winter. Larger species become hyperphagic and eat a large amount of food and store the energy in fat deposits.  It's interesting to note that bald scalp has less fat.  Testosterone contributes to thinning of the subcutaneous fat. In women, estrogen prevents thinning of these cushioning tissues, at least until menopause.
> 
> The aforementioned are just a few examples of what might stimulate ideas and discussion.  In other words, if bald scalp has less fat, is there any topical when micro needled that could promote fat production?  At this point anyway, before the major breakthrough we all want, I think that a better understanding of what already works even minimally is of value to everyone because the existing treatments can be improved upon.
> ...


 With the fat reduction theory though, what about bodybuilders on massive amounts of steroids with <6&#37; bodyfat, who just happen not to have the gene for hair loss and therefore keep their hair? Could it just be that once all of the hair follicles have miniaturized, the fat reduces as a consequence of the lack of follicles, rather than as a factor which causes it in the first place?

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> With the fat reduction theory though, what about bodybuilders on massive amounts of steroids with <6% bodyfat, who just happen not to have the gene for hair loss and therefore keep their hair? Could it just be that once all of the hair follicles have miniaturized, the fat reduces as a consequence of the lack of follicles, rather than as a factor which causes it in the first place?


 Good point and it's hard to say.  I remember when I was around 14, a noticeable fatty layer preceded beard growth on my chin. Studies indicate, without DHT, you won't grow a beard or body hair. Even if you are genetically predisposed to MPB, without DHT you will maintain a teenage head of hair to old age.  It messes with minds.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## efedrez

Is anyone still dermarolling or have we lost completely faith in this method?

I did it for a while with some minimal results and was wondering if it makes sense to go back for a few months

----------


## fred970

No result everywhere. If it did anything, we would know it by now. Delighted eople would have posted pictures. 

It has almost been a year since this method "came out" and there we have nothing.

Even I followed the 12 weeks protocol, and here I am 5 days after my FUE. So yeah, game over for this technique, it sounded promising on paper though.

----------


## hellouser

> No result everywhere. If it did anything, we would know it by now. Delighted eople would have posted pictures.


 Not true. 2young2retire had some fantastic results.

----------


## fred970

It's the minoxidil, he's just a very good responder like I was, that's all. 

He will be in for a rude awakening in a few years.

----------


## Conpecia

no he wasnt on minox

----------


## fred970

He was, he still is. That's why he had regrowth, don't be fooled.

----------


## rdawg

> Is anyone still dermarolling or have we lost completely faith in this method?
> 
> I did it for a while with some minimal results and was wondering if it makes sense to go back for a few months


 yea it doesnt work.

But it's a base, the whole FGF9 is the bigger piece of the puzzle here.

We need wounding+FGF9, just wounding doesnt seem to do anything.

----------


## Conpecia

> He was, he still is. That's why he had regrowth, don't be fooled.


 no. he wasn't. that's why his case matters.

----------


## fred970

He was, then he stopped, around the March. 

It takes 3 months for the minoxidil hairs to shed, just wait a little more time, and you'll see him crawl back here wondering what's going on.

Also, on all the after pictures he posted, his hair was longer, that and the minoxidil alone can do miracles, you don't believe me? I guess I have to do this...

This is me in August 2011, at the peak of my minoxidil regrowth:



And this was me a few days ago, just before my FUE surgery:



As you see minoxidil can do wonders to very good responders, but the benefit doesn't last long. This is where 2young2retire is headed. 

Sorry to burst your bubble Conpecia and hellhouser. One more thing: why on earth would he be the only guy to get results from dermarolling?

----------


## Agahi

I got some results with it. I have a lot of new growth past my hairline and inside it when I thinned out. The problem is looking like the hairs never get longer than my arm hair(not very long). Though dark black and more close together than my arm hair.

I actually am able to add some concealer to it and look like a nw2 again, though I have a lot of trouble with concealer on the hairline.

----------


## fred970

No one cares Agahi. We want pictures. Prove it.

----------


## Agahi

lol. k gimme a bit.

----------


## Agahi

Crap cam on my Phone but I wanted to get these up quick. Ill see about snagging the GFs phone tomorrow for you for a better look.

Pic #2 is an outline of the general area with new growth though the further from the hairline the shorter the hair(so harder to see). 

I actually have some baby hairs down to NW1 area though those are very sparse.

Been derma rollin for maybe 3 months now? Fin 4 years, Minox 8 years Niz 3 years.

----------


## youngin

PrettyFly83 had awesome results. He stopped posting cause of negative crap on this forum. He posted on ******* and showed pictures at 9 months that were crazy good. I have attached it to this post, I hope he doesn't mind. Fred, you gonna tell me this is all from Minox? I'm sure you will, cause it's your only acceptable thought process.

----------


## hellouser

> PrettyFly83 had awesome results. He stopped posting cause of negative crap on this forum. He posted on ******* and showed pictures at 9 months that were crazy good. I have attached it to this post, I hope he doesn't mind. Fred, you gonna tell me this is all from Minox? I'm sure you will, cause it's your only acceptable thought process.


 That is incredible :|

----------


## fred970

Are you guys really that naive? You don't see that the angles are different and he used a flash in the second picture?

Spencer explained what happens when you use a flash sideways, the light reflects on all the hairs, so it seems fuller.

Some people will never learn. Well at least until they are NW4+.

----------


## hellouser

> Are you guys really that naive? You don't see that the angles are different and he used a flash in the second picture?
> 
> Spencer explained what happens when you use a flash sideways, the light reflects on all the hairs, so it seems fuller.
> 
> Some people will never learn. Well at least until they are NW4+.


 I've done lots of professional photography... no way in hell am I going to take the word of an amateur like Spencer on this subject, lol.

PrettyFly's results are plain as day and so are 2young's.

----------


## fred970

So, dermarolling worked for these 2 persons but not you, not me, not swingline, not any single other user in the world (if it did, they would be shouting it on rooftops)? 

This thread has 300000 views, the one on the other forum had 1 million, yet we have nothing conclusive.

They used minoxidil, that explains the results. The debate is closed.

----------


## PrettyFly83

Hey guys thought I'd update

Took a break from rolling Jan - March then started up again. Hair has bounced back into regrowth mode this month. Lots of new vellus at the temples. Rest is getting thicker and stronger very slowly. 

Yes hair lengths are different now etc etc but I have shaved my head the past 5 years o am enjoying the new hair and compliments :Big Grin:  I'm still very thin ontop though which may never fill in but its alot better than it was.

Yes lighting is not identical but its the best I can do. 


Pics are: 
1. back & crown 12 months
2. top crown 12 months
3. Left Side from old picture to know
4. Left side from old picture to know different angle 
5. Right Temple

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> So, dermarolling worked for these 2 persons but not you, not me, not swingline, not any single other user in the world (if it did, they would be shouting it on rooftops)? 
> 
> This thread has 300000 views, the one on the other forum had 1 million, yet we have nothing conclusive.
> 
> They used minoxidil, that explains the results. The debate is closed.


 On paper, derma rolling without using any topical is minimally effective.  I believe there is a possibility that a future preventive topical cure for MPB will be a PGD2 neutralizer that is applied and derma rolled into the scalp.  I wouldn't give up on the derma roller.  Also consider that MPB can often take more than a decade to develop.  What if some of the guys, discouraged with the short-term results just needed to stick with it?  At least use a derma roller with Rogaine.  Studies indicate that derma rolling increases its effectiveness.  Dr. Cole uses a 1.5 needle length derma roller to enhance the effectiveness of stand-alone ACell/PRP treatments.



35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## fred970

> Hey guys thought I'd update
> 
> Took a break from rolling Jan - March then started up again. Hair has bounced back into regrowth mode this month. Lots of new vellus at the temples. Rest is getting thicker and stronger very slowly. 
> 
> Yes hair lengths are different now etc etc but I have shaved my head the past 5 years o am enjoying the new hair and compliments I'm still very thin ontop though which may never fill in but its alot better than it was.
> 
> Yes lighting is not identical but its the best I can do. 
> 
> 
> ...


 No disrespect but I'm not buying that you're not on treatments. It's even possible that you had a hair transplant and decided to make fun of us.

Not only the lightning is different, but you have your head shaved in the before pictures.

----------


## Notcoolanymore

Those are pretty damn good results if they are legit.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Those are pretty damn good results if they are legit.


 Working at Dr. Cole's office, I meet every patient that comes in for hair restoration surgery.  I ask every patient if they post in the forums.  Roughly 85% say they either regularly or occasionally visit the forums. Out of that 85% who visit the forums, only about 5% say they ever post.  

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## youngin

> Hey guys thought I'd update
> 
> Took a break from rolling Jan - March then started up again. Hair has bounced back into regrowth mode this month. Lots of new vellus at the temples. Rest is getting thicker and stronger very slowly. 
> 
> Yes hair lengths are different now etc etc but I have shaved my head the past 5 years o am enjoying the new hair and compliments I'm still very thin ontop though which may never fill in but its alot better than it was.
> 
> Yes lighting is not identical but its the best I can do. 
> 
> 
> ...


 PrettyFly, thanks for stopping in. Incredible results. Your results give me alot of hope to continue on. Everytime I think I should just quit I look at your 9 month picture and remember you telling me to just KEEP GOING. These new ones are even more inspiring. THANKS!

One question is, did you roll every week for 12 months, or did you take breaks?

----------


## youngin

> One question is, did you roll every week for 12 months, or did you take breaks?


 Guess I didn't thoroughly read your post. Did you roll all the way from May-2013 to December-2013?

----------


## PrettyFly83

> No disrespect but I'm not buying that you're not on treatments. It's even possible that you had a hair transplant and decided to make fun of us.
> 
> Not only the lightning is different, but you have your head shaved in the before pictures.


 None taken, Ive got no reason too lie. Ive documented my progress throughout this thread from as early as page 5. Go back and see my posts and early pictures. Definitely no transplant and other meds! 

As far as I can tell, I'm getting similar results to the good cases the original study assessed. 

So you backtracking on your theory that this is minox only? or clever trick photography?

----------


## fred970

Not really, I've seen everything in the 5 years I spent on hair loss forums.

27 posts only about dermarolling and a recent joining date, I just don't trust you and I think other members should be cautious too.

I suggest you send your pictures to Spencer and call the show, this could be interesting.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Not really, I've seen everything in the 5 years I spent on hair loss forums.
> 
> 27 posts only about dermarolling and a recent joining date, I just don't trust you and I think other members should be cautious too.
> 
> I suggest you send your pictures to Spencer and call the show, this could be interesting.


 Here's a respected site summarizing a derma rolling study.  Very encouraging:

*Results:*
"(1) Hair counts  The mean change in hair count at week 12 was significantly greater for the Microneedling group compared to the Minoxidil group (91.4 vs 22.2 respectively). (2) Investigator evaluation  Forty patients in Microneedling group had +2 to +3 response on 7-point visual analogue scale, while none showed the same response in the Minoxidil group. (3) Patient evaluation  In the Microneedling group, 41 (82%) patients reported more than 50% improvement versus only 2 (4.5%) patients in the Minoxidil group. Unsatisfied patients to conventional therapy for AGA got good response with Microneedling treatment.

*Conclusion:*
Dermaroller along with Minoxidil treated group was statistically superior to Minoxidil treated group in promoting hair growth in men with AGA for all 3 primary efficacy measures of hair growth. Microneedling is a safe and a promising tool in hair stimulation and also is useful to treat hair loss refractory to Minoxidil therapy."

Link to the article

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## youngin

> Not really, I've seen everything in the 5 years I spent on hair loss forums.
> 
> 27 posts only about dermarolling and a recent joining date, I just don't trust you and I think other members should be cautious too.
> 
> I suggest you send your pictures to Spencer and call the show, this could be interesting.


 I know I wouldn't do that if I were him. What does he have to prove to everyone? Nothing. I totally believe it and I've been here more than 5 years. I am a NW6 and already see old hair thickening with DR + Minox after DR'ing for 4 months and Minox for 1. The study already proved the efficacy. I am more bald than PrettyFly. I have proof of hairs turning from vellus to dark hair on DR alone. You can see hairs that are blonde ontop and black on the bottom under a microscope. I won't post any pictures because I don't have anything to prove though. There's a good chance this technique would work for alot of people. Go get your hair transplant and leave it alone.

----------


## Arashi

Lol

----------


## PrettyFly83

Come on guys, this study was quoted on the first page, 9th word of this thread and was the whole hype of this treatment...

----------


## hellouser

> Come on guys, this study was quoted on the first page, 8th word of this thread and was the whole hype of this treatment...


 LOL, I know, that study has been posted so many times... you'd think everyone would have seen it by now.

----------


## Arashi

> LOL, I know, that study has been posted so many times... you'd think everyone would have seen it by now.


 LOL, thanks, I thought it was a different recent study  :Smile:  Bummer indeed then ...

----------


## Arashi

I haven't been following the dermarolling thread very much. SO what's the current consensus then ? THat that whole study was fake ?

----------


## bigentries

I admit PrettyFly's results are very good. However, they are nowhere near what the study presented. They are very good minox results however

2young2retire? I think his pics are deceiving and the fact that he got all defensive about them proves he has little to back up. I'm always wary when a new user shows up with great results and starts speaking like he is an expert on the subject

And people do have reason to lie, this is the internet, we have seen MANY cases of people that cured baldness, pranced like they were the heroes agains the Big Pharma conspiracy and disappeared or quietly ignored their previous claims after no one got results from it.

FredtheBelgian is a good example of that kind of user, since he also became famous after promoting his own protocol. Kudos to him for not running away after things got sour




> I haven't been following the dermarolling thread very much. SO what's the current consensus then ? THat that whole study was fake ?


 Like many, I tried the protocol for 5 months with no results. Now everyone has moved on into massacring their scalps instead of following the study.

I still feel the study had some sort of deception. The after pics show a hair length suspiciously long for a 3 month study, specially when they claim they shaved their heads to measure baselines.
Some people keep repeating the after pics are actually the 8th month results, but I haven't seen any real quote from the researchers

----------


## hellouser

> I haven't been following the dermarolling thread very much. SO what's the current consensus then ? THat that whole study was fake ?


 Didn't do much for me and I went at it for 4-5 months of dermarolling. Well thats not true, I did bleed a bit.

----------


## hellouser

> I admit PrettyFly's results are very good. However, they are nowhere near what the study presented. They are very good minox results however


 PrettyFly's results are BETTER than what the study presented. He went from NW6 to an NW4.

----------


## bigentries

> I know I wouldn't do that if I were him. What does he have to prove to everyone? Nothing. I totally believe it and I've been here more than 5 years. I am a NW6 and already see old hair thickening with DR + Minox after DR'ing for 4 months and Minox for 1. The study already proved the efficacy. I am more bald than PrettyFly. I have proof of hairs turning from vellus to dark hair on DR alone. You can see hairs that are blonde ontop and black on the bottom under a microscope. I won't post any pictures because I don't have anything to prove though. There's a good chance this technique would work for alot of people. Go get your hair transplant and leave it alone.


 No offense, but why even post this if you refuse to show evidence?
This pisses me off, and not only about dermarolling. HLH is very guilty of that, every treatment there has people claiming results, but no one posts pics because "they have nothing to prove"

This is very egotistical, if you have something to show, show it, we need all the information we can get, and analyse it together, good results or no results are valuable information. Otherwise, these kind of posts just add noise and leave people wondering years in the future if the treatment really worked.




> PrettyFly's results are BETTER than what the study presented. He went from NW6 to an NW4.


 But not in three months.
From what I remember, by the time the study popped up, PrettyFly claimed he had been on it for several months.
Nothing new, there was also a fad about minox and dermarolling years before this study appeared

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> LOL, I know, that study has been posted so many times... you'd think everyone would have seen it by now.


 The thing is, forums create the illusion for those who post that posters are an accurate representation of total forum visitors.  Only a small percentage of forum readers ever post and there is a constant influx of new forum readers.  Redundancy can help prevent a new forum visitor from landing on someone's sour note.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## hellouser

> The thing is, forums create the illusion for those who post that posters are an accurate representation of total forum visitors.  Only a small percentage of forum readers ever post and there is a constant influx of new forum readers.  Redundancy can help prevent a new forum visitor from landing on someone's sour note.


 The study is on page 1 of this thread. I'd be pretty disappointed if people simply saw the name of this thread and started reading random pages out 200+ while ignoring the very FIRST one.

----------


## youngin

> No offense, but why even post this if you refuse to show evidence?
> This pisses me off, and not only about dermarolling. HLH is very guilty of that, every treatment there has people claiming results, but no one posts pics because "they have nothing to prove"
> 
> This is very egotistical, if you have something to show, show it, we need all the information we can get, and analyse it together, good results or no results are valuable information. Otherwise, these kind of posts just add noise and leave people wondering years in the future if the treatment really worked.


 The statement is saying I believe it BECAUSE I have seen changes in myself. I have shown people on other forums the pictures but this forum is full of negativity so why would I share something that will be shrugged off immediately. Right now these pictures motivate me and give me hope, should I post them and then have peoples negativity and doubt bring me down? No thanks. You could have the ultimate cure for baldness and everyone would just say its fake or a fluke here. It's really useless to post anything. See now the original published study is fake! It doesn't matter what i post. If you want the photo then join PHG and I will send it to you.

It's totally understandable why PrettyFly didn't post here for a long time. He previously gave detailed posts about his routine and month by month results which anyone can look at. But the first response to 12 month photos by Fred is: NO OFFENSE BUT FAAAAAKE! Silly

----------


## fred970

> FredtheBelgian is a good example of that kind of user, since he also became famous after promoting his own protocol. Kudos to him for not running away after things got sour


 I remember I had the same attitude as 2young2retire. Calling people idiots because they said I would end up bald. Or telling them to just go have a hair transplant, you know, like some people just did in this thread.

Users like 2young and Prettyfly will have to go what I've been through, and it's a pretty harsh experience. I had to edit all my previous posts on the other forum, I was so ashamed of myself. When I think that my nonsense is still out there on the IH forum.

Oh yes, of course! The negativity, it's because we're "negative" that we're still bald. Because healthy criticism and baldness go hand in hand!

Post picture or just don't post anything at all, it's completely useless.

----------


## bigentries

> The statement is saying I believe it BECAUSE I have seen changes in myself. I have shown people on other forums the pictures but this forum is full of negativity so why would I share something that will be shrugged off immediately. Right now these pictures motivate me and give me hope, should I post them and then have peoples negativity and doubt bring me down? No thanks. You could have the ultimate cure for baldness and everyone would just say its fake or a fluke here. It's really useless to post anything. See now the original published study is fake! It doesn't matter what i post. If you want the photo then join PHG and I will send it to you.
> 
> It's totally understandable why PrettyFly didn't post here for a long time. He previously gave detailed posts about his routine and month by month results which anyone can look at. But the first response to 12 month photos by Fred is: NO OFFENSE BUT FAAAAAKE! Silly


 Don't confuse negativity as healthy skepticism, you've been too long in the game too. 

I'm sorry, but if someone had the cure for baldness, and it could be replicated, I don't see why anyone would think is fake.

If you have pics, post them please, understand that you add noise to the debate if you claim results but can't prove them. You don't know if someone 5 years from now will read your posts and would get confused.

We have reasons to be skeptic. Again, look at Fred's case here, had he stopped posting after he went bald, someone might even think his original protocol really worked

----------


## hellouser

Not posting pics is insulting to the members of this forum. Backup your claims with evidence.

----------


## youngin

> Don't confuse negativity as healthy skepticism, you've been too long in the game too.


 I'm not confusing it  :Smile:

----------


## walrus

> 2young2retire? I think his pics are deceiving and the fact that he got all defensive about them proves he has little to back up.


 2young2retire seemed over-excitable and slightly delusional. 

His photos weren't great either.

----------


## gemplus

Congrats for your success and thanks for the very good pictures!

Could you please describe your regime?
You started with VitC, MSM and Minox? Rolling x mm every y days?

Thanks again!

----------


## BBay

I can't comment on derma rolling but micro needling certainly could be worth investigating.
The 8 th World Hair Congress had a few papers on it. One was titled LONG TERM FOLOWUP OF MICRO NEEDLINGPATIENTS TREATED FOR ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA 
Conclusion: Microneedling is indeed proving to be a promising tool in patients distressed with AGA. The effect of microneedling on hair stimulation was maintained post procedure and long term effects were good.This modality of therapy has not shown any long term  side effects, therefore can be safely used and implemented in our daily practice in patients with AGA.
There are/is some more papers on this, if any interest I'll check through the papers and post.

----------


## youngin

> Congrats for your success and thanks for the very good pictures!
> 
> Could you please describe your regime?
> You started with VitC, MSM and Minox? Rolling x mm every y days?
> 
> Thanks again!


 He has already described this. Find all posts by him and read them.

----------


## hellouser

> Congrats for your success and thanks for the very good pictures!
> 
> Could you please describe your regime?
> You started with VitC, MSM and Minox? Rolling x mm every y days?
> 
> Thanks again!


 Who is this directed to?

----------


## PrettyFly83

Hey all

Ok so Ive been asked a number of time to provide my routine so here it is with as much additional info I can think of but first a couple of important points Id like to share:

1.	I dont know if rolling has been the key for me or if Im just a good minox responder  there is no way we would ever be able to tell as I am not intending to stop minox.

2.	My progress may look good but it has been *incredibly* slow and I am still very thin on top! 

3.	Ive stuck to my regime with some minor changes / laziness along the way but there have been MANY times where I thought it was not working and to pack it in. 

4.	In my opinion consistency and patience is key.

5.	As Fred and many more before have pointed out the study does not seem accurate in their pictures at the assumed 12 week point. I too believe the hair length in the pictures does not represent 12 weeks but more along the lines of 8 months  maybe even 8 months post the 12 week study.

6.	Regarding various peoples success / failures of this treatment I think its important to note the studys results: 50 people were on the rolling protocol, 18 people had greatly increased (36%), 22 had moderately increased (44%) and 10 had slightly increased (20%).  2 in 5 will have good results so its not guaranteed this will work for everyone.

7.	These statistics were recorded by an independent person through HD photos via a stereotactic device at week 1 and week 12 not by looking in the mirror every day.

8.	I look in the mirror and cant see any new hairs to this day! That is just the nature of seeing yourself every day. Only with comparing Hi Res pictures between month 1 /3/6/12 could I tell things were happening very slowly.

Quick story on me age 30, NW6 as best I could tell. Started losing at 21 (9 years ago), NW4 at around 25 (5 years ago) and shaved my hair No.0 since 25. I had never cared to much about my hairloss and just accepted it and played along with the jokes but after reading an article somewhere, it stated its best to start treatments as early as possible so I thought Id give it one last try before Id left it too long.

Hair loss stages at age:
19: Started noticing increased hair fall in my study books etc
21: Noticed temples thinning (NW1.5)
23: Increased Temple and top thinning (NW2)
24: Significant thinning on top (NW3)
25-26: Loss of density all over (NW4 but could trace NW6 thinning - started buzzing)
28: Bald top no temples (NW5)
30: (Now) complete loss with some minor stubborn terminal hairs sporadically spaced (NW6)

My Regime as follows:
1.	April 2013:	I started Generic Minox 1ml twice a day as per instructions. This seemed to be the easiest treatment to start. Heard about Fin but was concerned about the sides.

2.	May 2013:	Picked up a 0.5mm roller as I wanted to reduce my sunspots and increase topical absorption of minox. When I research dermarollers, 0.5mm was said to be the best for skin pigmentation and hair growth through minox absorption. When I rolled it hurt and I got a quite a few spots of blood. I minoxd immediately after rolling, as this is what the roller was intended for and it burns. Ive always minoxed straight after rolling to this day. I never had heart issues and suggest you stop immediately if you feel strange. I press hard and roll for around 10min in a crisscross pattern over entire scalp.

3.	May 2013:	Added Vit C 1 gram and MSM 2gram a day after reading the thread. Occasionally made a topical 100% Vit C and distilled water which I rubbed on head for sunspots. 

4.	July 2013: 	Found this thread and the study and started posting progress pictures for the benefit of the community.

5.	August 2013:	Contacted the Authors of the study to try get some clarifications, can find that post here http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...398#post139398 . Regrowth seemed to have slowed down.

6.	September 2013: Added 1.5mm roller, added Keto Shampoo 2 x week away from rolling, added supplement Zinc 18mg, Vit A 10 000iu, Vit B6 20mg .

7.	December 2013: Provided 6 month update picture to forum, post here http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthr...611#post159611 

8.	Jan 2014  March 2014: Took a break from rolling, got distracted and bored. Kept up with everything else.

9.	March/April 2014: Picked up rolling again, updated other forum with pictures

10.	May 2014:	Posted 12 month update here

So my daily regime is:
	Minox 2ml
	1 gram vita C, 1 gram MSM
	Zinc Supplement (supplement Zinc 18mg, Vit A 10 000iu, Vit B6 20mg)

Weekly:
	Roll for 10min with 1.5mm roller in crisscross pattern over entire scalp
	Very painful but dont use any numbing cream etc. I get spots of blood all over 
	I sterilise my roller thoroughly before and after
	Occasionally I rub 100% VitC in distilled water over my head for sunspots

Ive tried to be as open as possible with this community as the wealth of information here has helped me greatly. Therefor I feel responsible that I owe it back and play open book. Im like you and just want to be able to get on with life and not worry about this crap so please try not be too harsh. Im still not happy with my hair but it looks alot better  not too say that I wasnt good looking with my shaved head :Wink:  People just think Ive grown it out but my family sees the difference.

I hope this helps

----------


## PrettyFly83

> I can't comment on derma rolling but micro needling certainly could be worth investigating.
> The 8 th World Hair Congress had a few papers on it. One was titled LONG TERM FOLOWUP OF MICRO NEEDLINGPATIENTS TREATED FOR ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA 
> Conclusion: Microneedling is indeed proving to be a promising tool in patients distressed with AGA. The effect of microneedling on hair stimulation was maintained post procedure and long term effects were good.This modality of therapy has not shown any long term  side effects, therefore can be safely used and implemented in our daily practice in patients with AGA.
> There are/is some more papers on this, if any interest I'll check through the papers and post.


 Excellent find BBay - this looks like it could be a follow up report on the original study. Please post it or any other information you can find?

----------


## BBay

OK here is another one on micro needling. I'll give a heavily edited version here.

COMPARISON OF THERAPEUTIC EFFECT OF SYSTEMIC GROWTH FACTOR MICRONEEDLE TREATMENT IN THE PATIENTS WITH MALE PATTERN HAIR LOSS BY VARYING DEPTH OF ABSORPTION:
Objective: The aim of this study was to compare the difference of effects according to the depth of micro needle.
Conclusion: Our results show that 0.5mm depth seems to be more effective than 0.3mm depth of micro needle.

If someone wants full abstract I'll write up if any interest.

----------


## youngin

> OK here is another one on micro needling. I'll give a heavily edited version here.
> 
> COMPARISON OF THERAPEUTIC EFFECT OF SYSTEMIC GROWTH FACTOR MICRONEEDLE TREATMENT IN THE PATIENTS WITH MALE PATTERN HAIR LOSS BY VARYING DEPTH OF ABSORPTION:
> Objective: The aim of this study was to compare the difference of effects according to the depth of micro needle.
> Conclusion: Our results show that 0.5mm depth seems to be more effective than 0.3mm depth of micro needle.
> 
> If someone wants full abstract I'll write up if any interest.


 Please write it up or link to it.

----------


## fred970

This was posted by Prettyfly on another forum:




> 1. I don’t know if rolling has been the key for me or if I’m just a good minox responder – there is no way we would ever be able to tell as I am not intending to stop minox.


 Ok folks, show's over, nothing to see here.

----------


## hellouser

> This was posted by Prettyfly on another forum:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok folks, show's over, nothing to see here.


 That doesnt go against dermarolling or for it though.

----------


## fred970

I know it may be hard to believe hellhouser, but he's now 1 year into his minoxidil treatment. When I was 1 year into my minoxidil treatment, I went from a diffuse NW5 to a NW2 with slightly less density at the front, and I'm not exagerating, just look at the reactions about my results in the success stories sections of ***.

Like I said many times, he's just a very good responder like I was.

----------


## youngin

> I know it may be hard to believe hellhouser, but he's now 1 year into his minoxidil treatment. When I was 1 year into my minoxidil treatment, I went from a diffuse NW5 to a NW2 with slightly less density at the front, and I'm not exagerating, just look at the reactions about my results in the success stories sections of ***.
> 
> Like I said many times, he's just a very good responder like I was.


 Your negativity is astounding.

----------


## youngin

PrettyFly, this might seem completely irrelevant but call it my curiosity... Do you smoke or take any form of nicotine? Thanks

----------


## PrettyFly83

Fred: I posted the same response to both forums. See post #2239 on previous page. Not hiding anything. What happened with your Minox response after your regrowth? did it just stop working or did you stop for other reasons?

Youngin: Smoked a little in my early 20's but stopped about 5 years ago. What your thoughts on that?

----------


## fred970

The effects of minoxidil just don't last forever, if they did, it would be a cure.

----------


## youngin

> Youngin: Smoked a little in my early 20's but stopped about 5 years ago. What your thoughts on that?


 Well the MPB twin studies correlate smoking to hair loss but I recently read a few studies showing that nicotine promotes angiogensis so it made me curious. I vape nicotine but have never smoked.

----------


## youngin

> The effects of minoxidil just don't last forever, if they did, it would be a cure.


 This is from Bernsteins site... After almost 3 years on Rogaine:http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/phot...atient-rur.jpg so obviously it lasts quite a long time for some people.

----------


## FearTheLoss

Dr. Greco recommended that I use a derma roller. He says he believes it increases minox's effectiveness by 80%. I think I may drop rogaine and switch to 82m with a derma roller.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Dr. Greco recommended that I use a derma roller. He says he believes it increases minox's effectiveness by 80%. I think I may drop rogaine and switch to 82m with a derma roller.


 I should also state that Dr. Greco instructed me to put minox on, derma roll right after, and then put minox on again..rather than not use minox on the day you derma roll. Derma rolling helps to absorb the minox. He said to do this one night of the week.

----------


## Pentarou

^ That is quite interesting actually. Anyone else had a Doctor recommend using dermarolling?

(And I would ask if anyone's still rolling, following the Indian journal study, but that won't be many of you.)

----------


## nliyan25

> ^ That is quite interesting actually. Anyone else had a Doctor recommend using dermarolling?
> 
> (And I would ask if anyone's still rolling, following the Indian journal study, but that won't be many of you.)


 I'd also consider using a dermaroller with RU, maybe? Maybe it would increase the RU's absorption.

----------


## hellouser

> I'd also consider using a dermaroller with RU, maybe? Maybe it would increase the RU's absorption.


 Would also increase chances of it going systemic and thus, similar side effects as finasteride.

----------


## YoungSufferer217

Hey Hellouser ,I know this is completely off subject with regards to this thread but I felt like either you or Desmond were the best people to ask about this.
I was thinking about why big Pharma companies or even research scientists in this field have only tried to inhibit the production of DHT  and not sought to breakdown or destroy the chemical to an extent throughout the body ,is it even possible to break down C19H30O2.?has this been tried before ?is it dangerous to try this ?and I know I'm probably going to get hammered because over production of DHT is not the only cause of balding but I've arrived at a theory (though it might be flawed and highly so because I don't know as much as I'd think you do )if you could take time to try and answer this question ,it would be amazing thanks bro

----------


## FearTheLoss

it's very important that you roll correctly. if you are bleeding after rolling than you are undoubtedly rolling too hard and causing trauma to the follicles that will have a negative impact..that's probably why some of you were not getting results.

----------


## fred970

Some of us? No one has been getting results with this scam.

----------


## doke

> Hey Hellouser ,I know this is completely off subject with regards to this thread but I felt like either you or Desmond were the best people to ask about this.
> I was thinking about why big Pharma companies or even research scientists in this field have only tried to inhibit the production of DHT  and not sought to breakdown or destroy the chemical to an extent throughout the body ,is it even possible to break down C19H30O2.?has this been tried before ?is it dangerous to try this ?and I know I'm probably going to get hammered because over production of DHT is not the only cause of balding but I've arrived at a theory (though it might be flawed and highly so because I don't know as much as I'd think you do )if you could take time to try and answer this question ,it would be amazing thanks bro


 Hi hell will problable tell you that you can block 100% dht with dutasteride but you would need to use 2.5mgs a day and that was the optimum dose that gave regrowth in the trials, although the cost would be a lot as 5 caps a day would be needed.
There would be more side effects in oral use and even then it may not bring back severe shiny areas of scalp.
Thats why topical use of dht inhibitors are needed flutamide in topical use was said to work but had to be in a gel formula that did not cause systemic side effects.

----------


## Notcoolanymore

> Some of us? No one has been getting results with this scam.


 I just skimmed through the 500+ page thread about this "treatment" on the other site.  With the exception of maybe one guy, I really didn't see many that could document(with pics) their success.  That thread was just a bunch of claims, little evidence, censored insults, and no results.  So many guys turned their heads into hamburger for nothing.

----------


## Pentarou

Hey, it was worth a go. I think what we did wrong as a community was to not verify the legitimacy of the original journal study first. Something definitely wasn't right there.

----------


## FearTheLoss

The problem is just that, "turning heads into hamburgers". Dermarolling must be done in a  very specific way. In such a way where you do not go overboard and damage the follicle. The problem is many people are overzealous with their treatment and practically everyone I saw that was failing was rolling until they bled. This DAMAGES the follicle, so obviously it wouldn't be beneficial. 

The problem with community trials is people don't follow strict and explicit guidelines to prove/disprove a treatment. Dermarolling has science backing it, and it works. I've been doing it, just like Dr. Greco instructed me to do, and it's been working for me, no doubt. 

DO NOT cause abrasion, if you're bleeding, you're doing more harm than good. 

FTL

----------


## Notcoolanymore

I DM'd for about 6 months.  I didn't go overboard with it.  I sometimes had small specks of blood.  I just didn't see much improvement.  Maybe I needed to give it more time to work?

----------


## annonymous4a

Hi guys, I want to try dermarolling my hair transplant strip scar. Is there a certain model I should get ? Is this the correct one ? 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...A3KV8IK6MMI7Z9

----------


## efedrez

> Hi guys, I want to try dermarolling my hair transplant strip scar. Is there a certain model I should get ? Is this the correct one ? 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...A3KV8IK6MMI7Z9


 Hello, I have been using one from the same manufacturer but 1.5 mm instead of 0.5 with what I believe to be ok results, however many members will argue that its a waste of time (honestly opinions are all over the place but it might be worth to try).

However in you case I'm not sure what are you trying to accomplish, dermarolling the scar of a HT wont grow any hair there since there are no hair follicle to bring back to live. It could help improving the skin but not sure if it will make a big difference or if your are going for that at all

----------


## annonymous4a

Hi, yeah that's what I'm trying to do , diminish the appearance of the scar with the dermaroller . I'll probably try 1.0 mm . 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...pf_rd_i=507846 

 Are there any side effects though ? Like if i exert too much force when rolling over the scar ..

----------


## efedrez

Ok, I think it make sense to do that, I did a lot a research about the type and brand and end up buying exactly that one so you should be ok
As for sides, there are none, simple try  not to dermaroll to hard since it won't make a different and you will cause pain
Good luck

----------


## gemplus

Hello PrettyFly83,

Long time not read about your progress...
Are you still rolling?
If yes, how can you motivate yourself to withstand the pain?
Thanks a lot for an update!

----------


## Jazz1

See my thread I derma rolled and I also got my hairdresser to cut my skin like wounding very slightly to draw blood. Alongside my regime here's the results:

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...582&highlight=

----------


## doke

Hi Jazz it seems from your early pics your hairloss was not major ie: nw4 or more now thats what we need regrowth for,not to say your small bald spot on your crown regrew well and regrowth at hairline.
But if it was aa it might have regrown with any topical im sceptical with minoxidil for one I do not like it as the alchohol in it dries the hair and scalp and seems until you wash hair it looks like straw then you start all over again this daily cycle which gets boring and a chore.
Minox foam not too bad though but higher strengths have not proved much for many and there is the worry of side effects which could cause heart and blood pressure problems and migraines.
If you look at natural topicles you can see people regrow hair and with miconazole nitrate and tretinoin with hydrocortisone.
But we really need a once a day at night before bed treatment that can be washed out in the morning ready for the day product that would be a result.

----------


## Jazz1

> Hi Jazz it seems from your early pics your hairloss was not major ie: nw4 or more now thats what we need regrowth for,not to say your small bald spot on your crown regrew well and regrowth at hairline.
> But if it was aa it might have regrown with any topical im sceptical with minoxidil for one I do not like it as the alchohol in it dries the hair and scalp and seems until you wash hair it looks like straw then you start all over again this daily cycle which gets boring and a chore.
> Minox foam not too bad though but higher strengths have not proved much for many and there is the worry of side effects which could cause heart and blood pressure problems and migraines.
> If you look at natural topicles you can see people regrow hair and with miconazole nitrate and tretinoin with hydrocortisone.
> But we really need a once a day at night before bed treatment that can be washed out in the morning ready for the day product that would be a result.


 Problem is I never took any pictures before AA to show my weak hairline, I'm just giving my advice you can regrow the hairline back. My hairline was very weak especially around the right side, il check my phone later I'm sure I have some before hand pictures somewhere  :Smile: . 

I do understand if the follicles are dead for 5 years it may not be possible  :Smile: .

----------


## BoSox

> Problem is I never took any pictures before AA to show my weak hairline, I'm just giving my advice you can regrow the hairline back. My hairline was very weak especially around the right side, il check my phone later I'm sure I have some before hand pictures somewhere . 
> 
> I do understand if the follicles are dead for 5 years it may not be possible .


 Did you achieve this by just using Dermaroller? I'm new to this device, and want to give it a try. Just mainly on my hair line.. the corners are starting to get so thin. I need help.

----------


## blondetooth

I think 7-10 day interval times with s 1.5mm roller is best. It gives the head enough time to heal.  Also after rolling let it dry and go to sleep. The blood dries ans stimulates the folicles even more. Leaving it to heal overnight naturally without introducing any shower chemicals. Finestride is good. Minoxidil is not as great because it causes the hairs to become dependent and not naturally strong. Minoxidil is a nasty chemical that causes heart problems, wrinkles,  and ugliness.

----------


## fred970

> I think 7-10 day interval times with s 1.5mm roller is best. It gives the head enough time to heal.  Also after rolling let it dry and go to sleep. The blood dries ans stimulates the folicles even more. Leaving it to heal overnight naturally without introducing any shower chemicals. Finestride is good. Minoxidil is not as great because it causes the hairs to become dependent and not naturally strong. Minoxidil is a nasty chemical that causes heart problems, wrinkles,  and ugliness.


 Everything in this post is wrong. Just look at these dermaroller topics, how they have been buried deep down in every single hair loss forum. It won't do heck for male pattern baldness, we know that for a fact now. 

Of course your hair will be dependent on minoxidil, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you don't use FDA approved treatments, then say goodbye to your hair.

And minoxidil doesn't cause heart problems, it can be a potential side-effect but come on, from a 5% solution you put on your scalp? Please! About minoxidil giving wrinkles and causing "ugliness". Now a medication can cause ugliness! 

As I always say, provide evidence or just don't post at all. Minoxidil has never been proven to cause wrinkles and you can't even argue with that.

----------


## youngin

As always Fred, you are the one who spouts out the same thing without doing any research. "THAT'S NOT TRUE, SHOW THE STUDIES". Now I am positive after seeing studies you will still argue about something like "WELL THAT DOESN'T SAY WRINKLES" with your non-correlative brain. But just for the record...



> And minoxidil doesn't cause heart problems, it can be a potential side-effect but come on, from a 5% solution you put on your scalp? Please!


 Yes heart effects from a drug put on your scalp. GASP!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1386573/




> About minoxidil giving wrinkles and causing "ugliness". Now a medication can cause ugliness!
> As I always say, provide evidence or just don't post at all. Minoxidil has never been proven to cause wrinkles and you can't even argue with that.


 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2826267
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1546087
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7672621
..and more and more

_"Stop using this medication and tell your doctor immediately if any of these unlikely but serious side effects occur: unwanted facial/body hair, dizziness, fast/irregular heartbeat, fainting, chest pain, swelling of hands/feet, unusual weight gain, tiredness, difficulty breathing especially when lying down."_

Alot of the side effects could be seen as "ugliness". Now are you going to say that the company who sells the product puts false statements in their literature to discourage sales?

----------


## blondetooth

Thanks for your excellent research youngin. Minoxidil is not a lightweight drug. Fin > minox. Thats why as soon as my fin gets here I will be doing the dermaroller with fin not minox.

----------


## fred970

You need to read the definition of side-effect again. These are side-effects! They occur in a very small percentage of people, 99% of people do just fine on minoxidil, 1% will get rashes or an allergic reaction.

For the rest: that doesn't say wrinkles. Still no evidence anywhere, people need to stop perpetuating these speculations about minoxidil. Don't scare the newbies away from treatments. And put a definitive end to this dermarolling joke.

----------


## blondetooth

There is plenty of evidence. Lots of forum posters say they get weird wrinkles now. Did you even read those articles?

As for heart problems, my dad used rogaine back in the day before his hair transplant and it hospitalized him/ almost died from it! He has high blood pressure and permanent heart problems from that nasty stuff he used.

----------


## KO1

I think dermarolling is an excellent idea, however, I feel it will not go far enough. Wounding grows hair, we know that, it doesn't grow enough hair to be cosmetically significant, the question is really of finding the topical compounds that are going to tickle the right chemical pathways....

----------


## Pentarou

> I think dermarolling is an excellent idea, however, I feel it will not go far enough. Wounding grows hair, we know that, it doesn't grow enough hair to be cosmetically significant, the question is really of finding the topical compounds that are going to tickle the right chemical pathways....


 I agree with the general sentiment. There's definitely potential in rolling, but we need a as-yet unknown special ingredient to kick it into growth overdrive.

----------


## fred970

> There is plenty of evidence. Lots of forum posters say they get weird wrinkles now. Did you even read those articles?


 Oh excuse me! Random people on the internet say they got wrinkles from minoxidil and that counts as evidence to you?

All people who say this read about minoxidil giving wrinkles before saying it, they started to see things. Good illustration of the placebo effect.

----------


## Ted

I have to agree with fred on this one. It is really hard to find before and after pictures of people getting wrinkles from minox, and in the hair loss world we all know what that means.

----------


## fred970

> I have to agree with fred on this one. It is really hard to find before and after pictures of people getting wrinkles from minox, and in the hair loss world we all know what that means.


 Thank you! As saying goes: "pictures or it never happened", we have countless before/after pictures with FDA approved treatments but not even one on the entire internet showing wrinkles from minoxidil. So the bottom line is: this never happened to anyone.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Thank you! As saying goes: "pictures or it never happened", we have countless before/after pictures with FDA approved treatments but not even one on the entire internet showing wrinkles from minoxidil. So the bottom line is: this never happened to anyone.


 Wrinkles from using minoxidil is a bunch of BS.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## lilpauly

no man its a known side effect. 


> Wrinkles from using minoxidil is a bunch of BS.
> 
> 35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
> Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

----------


## blondetooth

> Oh excuse me! Random people on the internet say they got wrinkles from minoxidil and that counts as evidence to you?
> 
> All people who say this read about minoxidil giving wrinkles before saying it, they started to see things. Good illustration of the placebo effect.


 There are pictures actually. Before and after photos a few months apart. People have documented proof of it that is clearly visible. Also hundreds of complaints and comments about it. Do a Google search and you will see I'm right. Your blind arrogance is sad.

Also there is a graph around here showing minoxidil only produces temporary results and then it useless. I would never use it, use fin for stability.

My dad was hospitalized and has permanent heart problem's from minoxidil. They were a few weeks after his first application.  Not fun.

Use a dermaroller but stay away from temporary cover up chemicals that screw up your head.

----------


## Ted

> There are pictures actually. Before and after photos a few months apart. People have documented proof of it that is clearly visible. Also hundreds of complaints and comments about it. Do a Google search and you will see I'm right. Your blind arrogance is sad.
> 
> Also there is a graph around here showing minoxidil only produces temporary results and then it useless. I would never use it, use fin for stability.
> 
> My dad was hospitalized and has permanent heart problem's from minoxidil. They were a few weeks after his first application.  Not fun.
> 
> Use a dermaroller but stay away from temporary cover up chemicals that screw up your head.


 Can you please link us to these pictures? I have googled but couldn't find any. I found this though http://www.realself.com/question/minoxidil-wrinkles

I also found this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4039155/ 



Minoxidil may suppress androgen receptor-related functions 
Cheng-Lung Hsu,1 Jai-Shin Liu,1,3 An-Chi Lin,1 Chih-Hsun Yang,2 Wen-Hung Chung,2 and Wen-Guey Wu3 
Author information ? Article notes ? Copyright and License information ? 
Go to: 
Abstract 
Although minoxidil has been used for more than two decades to treat androgenetic alopecia (AGA), an androgen-androgen receptor (AR) pathway-dominant disease, its precise mechanism of action remains elusive. We hypothesized that minoxidil may influence the AR or its downstream signaling. These tests revealed that minoxidil suppressed AR-related functions, decreasing AR transcriptional activity in reporter assays, reducing expression of AR targets at the protein level, and suppressing AR-positive LNCaP cell growth. Dissecting the underlying mechanisms, we found that minoxidil interfered with AR-peptide, AR-coregulator, and AR N/C-terminal interactions, as well as AR protein stability. Furthermore, a crystallographic analysis using the AR ligand-binding domain (LBD) revealed direct binding of minoxidil to the AR in a minoxidil-AR-LBD co-crystal model, and surface plasmon resonance assays demonstrated that minoxidil directly bound the AR with a Kd value of 2.6 ?M. Minoxidil also suppressed AR-responsive reporter activity and decreased AR protein stability in human hair dermal papilla cells. The current findings provide evidence that minoxidil could be used to treat both cancer and age-related disease, and open a new avenue for applications of minoxidil in treating androgen-AR pathway-related diseases.

----------


## blondetooth

Please people, putting chemicals on your scalp is not healthy. 

Don't be one of those people that only believes what a doctor tells them, or only believes what they read on the back of the medicine box.

----------


## blondetooth

Rogaine: After 48 weeks you are basically baseline.... 

Propecia works though. Have a good day.

*Here is your google search link for Rogaine wrinkles, hundreds of thousands people complaining, dark bags under eyes etc....* https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...ine%20wrinkles Scary.

----------


## Ted

I still can't find any before and after pictures of people getting wrinkles from minox. Please link the pictures you are talking about.

I read that in the study that showed the first graph you posted they stopped using minox after 96 weeks. So it looks like after 96 weeks you are still quite a lot better of with minox than without. The question though is for how long.

----------


## gainspotter

Of course you're gonna get wrinkles from minox. If you use it then you're going bald. Going bald is stressful. Stress causes wrinkles.

----------


## fred970

> Don't be one of those people that only believes what a doctor tells them, or only believes what they read on the back of the medicine box.


 Who are we supposed to believe then? You?!

And another one! Stress causes wrinkles now. First, define stress, secondly, stop writing complete nonsense.

There are no before/after pictures. Therefore, there is no evidence. Therefore, case closed.

I must laugh at the 25 years old men who've used minoxidil for 2 years and say it gave them wrinkles. 

Hey, dude, you're ageing, we all are, of course you're going to get some wrinkles at that age. Get over it and stop blaming the minoxidil. 

And to people who say that this is a known side-effect, they can scan the notice of Rogaine and show us where it's written in the side-effects. We're waiting.

----------


## asianguy

Are there any benefits to dermarolling without topicals? 

Also will dermarolling help reduce the visibility of FUE donor punch scars?

----------


## FFS

I know the studies suggest dermarolling til you bleed everywhere but will it be beneficial to use a derma roller daily at 1.5mm but not drawing blood and immediately applying RU afterwards, to enhance absorption of RU?

----------


## fred970

> I know the studies suggest dermarolling til you bleed everywhere but will it be beneficial to use a derma roller daily at 1.5mm but not drawing blood and immediately applying RU afterwards, to enhance absorption of RU?


 Open your eyes. This doesn't work at all and has never worked for anybody.

----------


## youngin

> Open your eyes. This doesn't work at all and has never worked for anybody.


 Worked pretty incredibly for PrettyFly83 combined with Minox. I have never seen a response from Minox alone like he had in the 15 years I've been looking at these message boards. The science behind it as good as well. Not everyone reacts the same. I would say give it a go for a few months and see what happens.

----------


## NOhairNOlife

I think I'm gonna stop derma-rolling. I did it for 4 months , once a week then waiting 24 hours to apply minoxidol, but I don't believe it did anything for me. But it sure did hurt like hell.

I'm also taking fin 1mg daily, saw palmetto, omega3, biotin and vitamin d3

----------


## Notcoolanymore

I threw in the towel on this after about 6 months.

----------


## fred970

> I think I'm gonna stop derma-rolling. I did it for 4 months , once a week then waiting 24 hours to apply minoxidol


 It's because you should have used manixadul.

Seriously though, we have no consistent results.

So I call BS on this "treatment".

----------


## NOhairNOlife

> It's because you should have used manixadul.
> 
> Seriously though, we have no consistent results.
> 
> So I call BS on this "treatment".


 The only guy that got good results was that fly83 guy it seems

----------


## Vic

I read some people had hairs darker then vellus but not fully pigmented growing from this treatment. Wondering if those hairs cycled into terminal hairs? Thanks

----------


## Vic

> Hey all my Balding Brothers and Sister
> 
> As promised here are my 3 month update photo's which I'm posting for all to gauge the effectiveness of this treatment.
> 
> To summarize, I haven't changed anything in my regime from my first posts on page 6-8 of this thread as I didnt want to blur any results by changing techniques. My understanding was the original purpose of this thread  by Hellouser was either to replicate the study or undertake a regime with slight variations on the technique. I'm planning to stick with my regime until I see someone yield better results with theirs. In no way am I saying mine was better than the studies, I had just been doing it for 2 months so thought to carry on.
> 
> Ive tried to match close ups over various area's of my shiny NW6 head to compare each area individually. Sorry if they are not exactly correctly positioned as these were all taken with an  Galaxy SIII but I think they show enough detail.
> 
> Would like to hear everyone views on them, whether there has been any progress. Be gentle with your comments please, this is my head after all
> ...


 Hi prettyfly. I was wondering if the growth you experienced was maintained after stopping(if you ever stopped) and if you experienced more growth? I'm almost at 4 months and have had some promising results. 2 months in, my hair got darker, now at 4 months in  I'm seeing darker then peach fuzz hairs growing so low on my forehead, I had to look at old pictures just to see if I ever had a hairline that low. 

I've read thru many of your posts but you seem to have stopped posting. Hope you grew it all back and lived happily ever after!! Lol. I'd just like to know if you experienced darker then peach fuzz hairs growing in the beginning which eventually turned terminal? Or Did the hair you grew back come in terminal from the get go?

Did those dots you thought were hairs just resting grow? I have a TON of those too.

----------


## warner8

Hi Vic, I just started derma rolling last week with a 0.5 mm advice, since i keep my hair very low. do you roll every day, or EOD. The first time I did it, it left my scalp really sore which means i over did it, but the 2nd and third time, i did not notice any soreness. 

are you using it in conjunction with minox? about how long did you begin to see a difference?





> Hi prettyfly. I was wondering if the growth you experienced was maintained after stopping(if you ever stopped) and if you experienced more growth? I'm almost at 4 months and have had some promising results. 2 months in, my hair got darker, now at 4 months in  I'm seeing darker then peach fuzz hairs growing so low on my forehead, I had to look at old pictures just to see if I ever had a hairline that low. 
> 
> I've read thru many of your posts but you seem to have stopped posting. Hope you grew it all back and lived happily ever after!! Lol. I'd just like to know if you experienced darker then peach fuzz hairs growing in the beginning which eventually turned terminal? Or Did the hair you grew back come in terminal from the get go?
> 
> Did those dots you thought were hairs just resting grow? I have a TON of those too.

----------


## Vic

> Hi Vic, I just started derma rolling last week with a 0.5 mm advice, since i keep my hair very low. do you roll every day, or EOD. The first time I did it, it left my scalp really sore which means i over did it, but the 2nd and third time, i did not notice any soreness. 
> 
> are you using it in conjunction with minox? about how long did you begin to see a difference?


 I roll exactly as directed in the study with a 1.5mm roller once a week and skip minox for 24hrs after rolling. If you are rolling with a .05mm roller, you are not getting anywhere near the hair follicles. You are waisting your time unless you are trying to eliminate wrinkles on your scalp. .05mm is used for face wrinkles. Peach fuzz follicles are 1.5 to 2 mm below the skin. Darker hairs are 3mm to 4mm below the skin. You need to choose the right derma roller for what you're trying to treat. 
I've posted my 3 month results. You can view pics of progress and everything I'm doing.

----------


## warner8

really? my scalp is buzzed off bald. i thought 0.5 would be sufficient.

----------


## Keeper

Hey Vic, where can I find you photos of the results ?

----------


## Vic

> really? my scalp is buzzed off bald. i thought 0.5 would be sufficient.


 My hair is buzzed too but that doesn't make my skin any thicker or thinner.

----------


## Vic

> Hey Vic, where can I find you photos of the results ?


 Here

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...lts?highlight=

----------


## warner8

ok, looks like i gotta go buy another then.  where did you get your roller from online?

also, why would you apply the minox 24 hrs after rolling; i thought the point was to allow the minox to seep in while the holes are open, wouldn't a healing reaction take place to plug the holes within the 24 hrs




> My hair is buzzed too but that doesn't make my skin any thicker or thinner.

----------


## Vic

> ok, looks like i gotta go buy another then.  where did you get your roller from online?
> 
> also, why would you apply the minox 24 hrs after rolling; i thought the point was to allow the minox to seep in while the holes are open, wouldn't a healing reaction take place to plug the holes within the 24 hrs


 The point of this study wasn't to increase minox absorption. Some people do use smaller rollers to increase absorption but that can lead to some serious health issues in some because minox can get into your bloodstream and cause havoc. 

The point of this study was to stimulate growth factors. Minox is used to keep the hair follicles in a growing phase so when the growth factors are triggered with the use of a dermaroller, they attach to the hair follicles which are trying to grow instead of turning into collagen.

----------


## PrettyFly83

> Hi prettyfly. I was wondering if the growth you experienced was maintained after stopping(if you ever stopped) and if you experienced more growth? I'm almost at 4 months and have had some promising results. 2 months in, my hair got darker, now at 4 months in  I'm seeing darker then peach fuzz hairs growing so low on my forehead, I had to look at old pictures just to see if I ever had a hairline that low. 
> 
> I've read thru many of your posts but you seem to have stopped posting. Hope you grew it all back and lived happily ever after!! Lol. I'd just like to know if you experienced darker then peach fuzz hairs growing in the beginning which eventually turned terminal? Or Did the hair you grew back come in terminal from the get go?
> 
> Did those dots you thought were hairs just resting grow? I have a TON of those too.


 Hi Vic

Hair still holding steady but I noticed a plateau in regrowth earlier in year. Took a break from rolling for a few months and restarted end of July to try kickstart another regrowth. Ive definitely maintained and am confident I am seeing some slow regrowth again.

I have zoomed and centered the pictures on my worst area's. Pictures were the closest I could find in terms of angles and lighting so dates are not exactly 2.5years, more like 2 years but its been 2.5 since I started rolling. These areas were pretty much slick bald when I started. 

You can see date stamps at the top of images.



Routine still mostly same as original study:
1.5mm Roller
    Weekly rolling, sometime less
    5-10min, couple spots of blood but nothing crazy
    Minox every day including rolling days (Ive always done this)
    Supplements daily: MSM 1000 mg, Vit C 1000mg, Zinc 15mg
    Keto Shampoo 1-2 x weekly

I posted a detailed summary last year:

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...ht=#post174515

For those who are new here is the original study and follow up study's that started the whole thing:

A randomized evaluator blinded study of effect of microneedling in androgenetic alopecia: A pilot study:
http://www.ijtrichology.com/article....;aulast=Dhurat

Response to microneedling treatment in men with androgenetic alopecia who failed to respond to conventional therapy:

http://www.e-ijd.org/article.asp?iss...;aulast=Dhurat

----------


## Vic

Thanks For the reply Prettyfly! Glad to hear the hair is holding strong. 

I read you had darker then peach fuzz growth in the beginning, did those hairs cycle into terminal? Or did the terminal hair growth you experience come in terminal from the get go? 
Thanks!!

----------


## barfacan

So you went from a slick NW6 to having hair again?  Just with rolling+minox??   Wow.

----------


## PrettyFly83

> Thanks For the reply Prettyfly! Glad to hear the hair is holding strong. 
> 
> I read you had darker then peach fuzz growth in the beginning, did those hairs cycle into terminal? Or did the terminal hair growth you experience come in terminal from the get go? 
> Thanks!!


 Hi Vic

Yes, they started out super fine and very slowly started increasing in diameter and gaining pigment. You can see in my latest photo's the finer hairs from the first photo grew thicker, they still aren't at 100% terminal thickness yet but they continue to increase month by month. I still shed quite a lot but I think it is these finer hairs shedding, then regrowing a bit stronger, then repeat a few months later.




> So you went from a slick NW6 to having hair again?  Just with rolling+minox??   Wow.


 Pretty much, NW5A too NW2.5V (I'm currently in between NW2 and 3V). I wasn't completely slick but definitely just above my crown and temples. The rest was really fine vellus which never grew more than a cm and was aggressively thinning further.

----------


## warner8

hi prettyfly, did you follow the instructions like the study, using a 1.5 derma roller once a week for 10-15 min till the scalp was slightly red and irritated? 

Also, what do you believe caused the regrowth from derma rolling; is it the increase in new blood vessels and growth factors from healing process?







> Hi Vic
> 
> Yes, they started out super fine and very slowly started increasing in diameter and gaining pigment. You can see in my latest photo's the finer hairs from the first photo grew thicker, they still aren't at 100% terminal thickness yet but they continue to increase month by month. I still shed quite a lot but I think it is these finer hairs shedding, then regrowing a bit stronger, then repeat a few months later.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much, NW5A too NW2.5V (I'm currently in between NW2 and 3V). I wasn't completely slick but definitely just above my crown and temples. The rest was really fine vellus which never grew more than a cm and was aggressively thinning further.

----------


## fred970

Excellent minoxidil results and you just let your hair grow. Nothing unusual here. Dermarolling doesn't work. Period.

----------


## Vic

No one asked for your opinion Fred. If we have questions on hair transplants we'll ask you. Then and only then will your opinion matter.

----------


## Vic

That's great news PrettyFly. Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions.

----------


## fred970

> No one asked for your opinion Fred. If we have questions on hair transplants we'll ask you. Then and only then will your opinion matter.


 I have used minoxidil and I went from what he had to a more than decent head of hair too.

So I think I have some experience about this. These are rare stellar minoxidil results but they do happen.

Don't get your hopes up. PrettyFly will return to baseline in a year or so. 

As if dermarolling would work on only 1 person out of thousands who tried it. Have some common sense here.

----------


## PrettyFly83

> I have used minoxidil and I went from what he had to a more than decent head of hair too.
> 
> So I think I have some experience about this. These are rare stellar minoxidil results but they do happen.
> 
> Don't get your hopes up. PrettyFly will return to baseline in a year or so. 
> 
> 
> As if dermarolling would work on only 1 person out of thousands who tried it. Have some common sense here.


 Well, for my sake and others who are willing to try something different, I hope to be back in a year (again) to prove you wrong - I'm sure you said this last year actually and here I am showing a stronger case! 

Ive been on Minox for 2.5 years now with no signs of regression. Yes I have had some plateau's but am currently experiencing another regrowth session and the only addition was I started rolling again after a few months break. This, along with the questions directed at myself, is my reasoning for posting in this thread again.

If you don't want to try the technique, that's your decision but let other members come to their own conclusions. This is my case and I have put it on the forum for the benefit of the community in the hopes that others can experience the success I've had.

Fly Out.

----------


## youngin

> I have used minoxidil and I went from what he had to a more than decent head of hair too.
> 
> So I think I have some experience about this. These are rare stellar minoxidil results but they do happen.
> 
> Don't get your hopes up. PrettyFly will return to baseline in a year or so. 
> 
> As if dermarolling would work on only 1 person out of thousands who tried it. Have some common sense here.


 You are the most negative asshole on this forum. A guy shows up to update on one of THE BEST legit results of all time on any forum I've ever seen and you're here to be a dick as usual. What a contribution you are to this forum. This is exactly why no one will find a cure.

----------


## youngin

> Well, for my sake and others who are willing to try something different, I hope to be back in a year (again) to prove you wrong - I'm sure you said this last year actually and here I am showing a stronger case! 
> 
> Ive been on Minox for 2.5 years now with no signs of regression. Yes I have had some plateau's but am currently experiencing another regrowth session and the only addition was I started rolling again after a few months break. This, along with the questions directed at myself, is my reasoning for posting in this thread again.
> 
> If you don't want to try the technique, that's your decision but let other members come to their own conclusions. This is my case and I have put it on the forum for the benefit of the community in the hopes that others can experience the success I've had.
> 
> Fly Out.


 I appreciate you reporting in. Your case has inspired hope for me.

----------


## fred970

> You are the most negative asshole on this forum. A guy shows up to update on one of THE BEST legit results of all time on any forum I've ever seen and you're here to be a dick as usual. What a contribution you are to this forum. This is exactly why no one will find a cure.


 I understand you want to believe. But it's nothing more than false hope. It's all minoxidil here.

If he didn't use any minoxidil, I would have been impressed. But now how do you know if dermarolling did anything?

My minoxidil results were really similar to his, that's why I think there's nothing to get excited about.

----------


## Hicks

> I understand you want to believe. But it's nothing more than false hope. It's all minoxidil here.
> 
> If he didn't use any minoxidil, I would have been impressed. But now how do you know if dermarolling did anything?
> 
> My minoxidil results were really similar to his, that's why I think there's nothing to get excited about.


 Ever hear the saying "if you keep talking then you'll tell everyone how stupid you really are"?

Thanks for the update fly.

----------


## fred970

> Ever hear the saying "if you keep talking then you'll tell everyone how stupid you really are"?
> 
> Thanks for the update fly.


 233 pages for this. Just like this other topic where so many people fought endlessly: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...in-alternative

In the end, it's all wind. Nothing. PrettyFly will return to baseline in a year, but he won't come back to tell us he was wrong.

If this worked, we would have countless successful cases. 233 pages in this topic and we have... one. How convincing.

----------


## HMDWN

Hi people, long time lurker and have read many-many topic discussions.
BTW I'm 58 and always had an insane thick head of hair...but with age things are changing quick!
I'd like to bump this Dermarolling thread to ask two legitimate questions then, I'll be moving over to the RU5881 and Minoxidil threads for more questions.
So, with someone as my self that still has a considerable amount of hair on top yet, when shampooing I can now feel the tell tail horseshoe MPB pattern with my fingers. Also when exiting the shower I can see my scalp peeking through more and more vs lets say last year. 
My dermaroller questions are...
1) wouldn't rolling a 1-1.5 mm roller over your scalp maybe damage existing hair follicles by harpooning them?
2) isn't there a possibility the roller needles cutting into and or shredding the existing hair? 
Thanks to be here and for any advice and comments.

----------


## Vic

Peach fuzz is 1.5 to 2mm below the skin. Terminal hairs are 3-4mm below the skin. We might be playing Russian Rulette with the peach fuzz but the rest are safe.

----------


## HMDWN

> Peach fuzz is 1.5 to 2mm below the skin. Terminal hairs are 3-4mm below the skin. We might be playing Russian Rulette with the peach fuzz but the rest are safe.


  Thank you for that info!

----------


## TheKingofFighters

im using a dermapen bought from Ebay and it's very cheap. spills more blood then a roller.

----------


## HMDWN

> im using a dermapen bought from Ebay and it's very cheap. spills more blood then a roller.


 Could "more bleeding" really be beneficial? 
I somewhat understand the thoughts behind "wounding" the 'skin itself' but not how that affects the actual dormant hair follicle has me scratching my head. 
Back to my original dermaroller question and what info I've further read...a .02 mm roller needle is all that's needed to greatly help topicals get to where they need to go. I still ask myself this rolling of needles over a head with hair must cause some damage to the hair outside the head by maybe cutting or stabbing through the hair shaft. I'm debating if 'on my head' that process would actually cause more harm to the existing hairs on my head vs the positive thoughts of allowing a topical to get to the hair follicle itself.
Do I want a bloody head, well maybe if I had viable scars on a bald head to where collegian may over time lessen the scars themselves. Do I feel bleeding your scalp helping to "grow hair"...I'm just not digesting that, is there scientific proof it infact does?

----------


## HMDWN

> im using a dermapen bought from Ebay and it's very cheap. spills more blood then a roller.


 Could "more bleeding" really be beneficial? 
I somewhat understand the thoughts behind "wounding" the 'skin itself' but not how that affects the actual dormant hair follicle has me scratching my head. 
Back to my original dermaroller question and what info I've further read...a .02 mm roller needle is all that's needed to greatly help topicals get to where they need to go. I still ask myself this rolling of needles over a head with hair must cause some damage to the hair outside the head by maybe cutting or stabbing through the hair shaft. I'm debating if 'on my head' that process would actually cause more harm to the existing hairs on my head vs the positive thoughts of allowing a topical to get to the hair follicle itself.
Do I want a bloody head, well maybe if I had viable scars on a bald head to where collegian may over time lessen the scars themselves. Do I feel bleeding your scalp helps to "grow hair"...I'm just not digesting that, is there scientific proof it infact does?

----------


## Vic

> Could "more bleeding" really be beneficial? 
> I somewhat understand the thoughts behind "wounding" the 'skin itself' but not how that affects the actual dormant hair follicle has me scratching my head. 
> Back to my original dermaroller question and what info I've further read...a .02 mm roller needle is all that's needed to greatly help topicals get to where they need to go. I still ask myself this rolling of needles over a head with hair must cause some damage to the hair outside the head by maybe cutting or stabbing through the hair shaft. I'm debating if 'on my head' that process would actually cause more harm to the existing hairs on my head vs the positive thoughts of allowing a topical to get to the hair follicle itself.
> Do I want a bloody head, well maybe if I had viable scars on a bald head to where collegian may over time lessen the scars themselves. Do I feel bleeding your scalp helps to "grow hair"...I'm just not digesting that, is there scientific proof it infact does?


 
You might want to take time to read the study so you understand what this is all about. The point of rolling with a 1.5 isn't to increase the absorption of topicals. It's to generate growth factors near the follicles. Wounding triggers growth factors, you use rogaine to keep all follicles in growing phase so when growth factors are triggered, they attach to the hair follicle instead of becoming collegian.

----------


## Herbaliser

> The point of this study wasn't to increase minox absorption. Some people do use smaller rollers to increase absorption but that can lead to some serious health issues in some because minox can get into your bloodstream and cause havoc. 
> 
> The point of this study was to stimulate growth factors. Minox is used to keep the hair follicles in a growing phase so when the growth factors are triggered with the use of a dermaroller, they attach to the hair follicles which are trying to grow instead of turning into collagen.


 So this your natural approach?
Could you share some pictures to us, since mine was not clear enough for you in my imaginary mirror?

----------


## Vic

> Could "more bleeding" really be beneficial? 
> I somewhat understand the thoughts behind "wounding" the 'skin itself' but not how that affects the actual dormant hair follicle has me scratching my head. 
> Back to my original dermaroller question and what info I've further read...a .02 mm roller needle is all that's needed to greatly help topicals get to where they need to go. I still ask myself this rolling of needles over a head with hair must cause some damage to the hair outside the head by maybe cutting or stabbing through the hair shaft. I'm debating if 'on my head' that process would actually cause more harm to the existing hairs on my head vs the positive thoughts of allowing a topical to get to the hair follicle itself.
> Do I want a bloody head, well maybe if I had viable scars on a bald head to where collegian may over time lessen the scars themselves. Do I feel bleeding your scalp helps to "grow hair"...I'm just not digesting that, is there scientific proof it infact does?


 
And to answer your question about damaging hair, it doesn't matter because hair is dead to begin with. You can poke it, cut it, stab it, etc etc etc and your hair follicle will grow more hair.

----------


## Vic

> So this your natural approach?
> Could you share some pictures to us, since mine was not clear enough for you in my imaginary mirror?


 
Click on my name and look for my results thread. It would help us all out of you took the time to take similar pics.

----------


## HMDWN

> And to answer your question about damaging hair, it doesn't matter because hair is dead to begin with. You can poke it, cut it, stab it, etc etc etc and your hair follicle will grow more hair.


 Vic, thanks for the reply, I'm aware a healthy follicle will make and push hair out of the scalp.  
Like a fingernail I fully understand once the hair exits the scalp it's "dead". 
My meaning of "damage" or damaging the hair is...on a person with a considerable a mount of hair I can't help but think a roller with 192 needles  'could-maybe' cut into the hairs thus breaking them off thus shredding them from your head and making the density look worse. 
I could only imagine a 540 needle roller doing even more damage to the hair as there's a far greater chance the closeness/congestion of the needles will pierce into and break-off a hair and thin out what you're trying to preserve.
Know what I mean?

----------


## Vic

> Vic, thanks for the reply, I'm aware a healthy follicle will make and push hair out of the scalp.  
> Like a fingernail I fully understand once the hair exits the scalp it's "dead". 
> My meaning of "damage" or damaging the hair is...on a person with a considerable a mount of hair I can't help but think a roller with 192 needles  'could-maybe' cut into the hairs thus breaking them off thus shredding them from your head and making the density look worse. 
> I could only imagine a 540 needle roller doing even more damage to the hair as there's a far greater chance the closeness/congestion of the needles will pierce into and break-off a hair and thin out what you're trying to preserve.
> Know what I mean?


 If that's your logic then no one should use or try any hair growth treatment since every treatment available that actually works, first causes a shed which leads to temporary thinning. 

Even if you cause damage to hair and you seem thinner for a little while, it's no different then using something as commonly used as Rogaine.

----------


## HMDWN

> If that's your logic then no one should use or try any hair growth treatment since every treatment available that actually works, first causes a shed which leads to temporary thinning. 
> 
> Even if you cause damage to hair and you seem thinner for a little while, it's no different then using something as commonly used as Rogaine.


  Vic again I thank you for your reply and of course you feedback is valid.
As I continue to read and gain more knowledge I am at times one that thinks outside the box so I'll ask one more opinion from you. Maybe this could be a factor, maybe not but here's another way I'm thinking...you know how it's said, when a person has hair transplants they will lose hair because it "shocks" the existing follicles.
Well, I have to wonder, forcing a 1.50 mm roller-needle into the scalp to "wound it" couldn't that also produce some "shocking" to the scalp-hair and cause another reason to shed too?
It almost seems, with any type of "save/regrow the hair treatment" whether it be deep-Dermarollering/needling, topicals as Fin, Dut, RU58841 etc or the extreme being hair transplants, there's no way to prevent the existing hairs from going through a hefty and depressing shedding phase.

----------


## HMDWN

> If that's your logic then no one should use or try any hair growth treatment since every treatment available that actually works, first causes a shed which leads to temporary thinning. 
> 
> Even if you cause damage to hair and you seem thinner for a little while, it's no different then using something as commonly used as Rogaine.


  Vic again I thank you for your reply and of course you feedback is valid.
As I continue to read and gain more knowledge I am at times one that thinks outside the box so I'll ask one more opinion from you. Maybe this could be a factor, maybe not but here's another way I'm thinking...you know how it's said, when a person has hair transplants they will lose hair because it "shocks" the existing follicles.
Well, I have to wonder, forcing a 1.50 mm roller-needle into the scalp to "wound it" couldn't that also produce some "shocking" to the scalp-hair and cause another reason to shed too?
It almost seems, with any type of "save/regrow the hair treatment" whether it be deep-Dermarollering/needling, topicals a Minoxidil, RU58841 or ingesting pills as fin, dut etc or the extreme side of the treatment being hair transplants, there's no way to prevent the existing hairs from going through a hefty and depressing shedding phase.

----------


## rhys216

> im using a dermapen bought from Ebay and it's very cheap. spills more blood then a roller.


 I bought one of those and binned it. Not worth using in my opinion.
Bought a Derminator instead (fairly expensive) but works REALLY well though.
Apparently the cartridges penetrate deeper than the equivalent needle length of rollers, so I have started out with a 1mm needle length to be safe.
So far pain in tolerable, and I am not getting any blood. Little bit noisy on the scalp and face (I figure it can't hurt to look younger to) but still tolerable. 
Not using anything else on scalp (very beginning stages of hair thinning), except caffeine shampoo (alpecin).

Currently I needle, then wash my hair with alpecin right after. I'm assuming it will also help the absorption of caffeine.

Too early to tell if it will make a difference, however I do see some shorter hairs growing where I don't 'think' there was any before needling.

----------


## BBay

> Hi people, long time lurker and have read many-many topic discussions.
> BTW I'm 58 and always had an insane thick head of hair...but with age things are changing quick!
> I'd like to bump this Dermarolling thread to ask two legitimate questions then, I'll be moving over to the RU5881 and Minoxidil threads for more questions.
> So, with someone as my self that still has a considerable amount of hair on top yet, when shampooing I can now feel the tell tail horseshoe MPB pattern with my fingers. Also when exiting the shower I can see my scalp peeking through more and more vs lets say last year. 
> My dermaroller questions are...
> 1) wouldn't rolling a 1-1.5 mm roller over your scalp maybe damage existing hair follicles by harpooning them?
> 2) isn't there a possibility the roller needles cutting into and or shredding the existing hair? 
> Thanks to be here and for any advice and comments.


  I found the roller gouged into my scalp and did not leave a balanced treatment area, I found it took awhile to heal up and I did have an infection  from it. It did have some effect but I don't use it anymore. I have moved onto to the next level instrument and use a different mix to rub in., I'm one year older than you but I'm having really good results now. In short the roller is an ok introduction to start the results your after but long term too much pain.

----------


## Vic

> Vic again I thank you for your reply and of course you feedback is valid.
> As I continue to read and gain more knowledge I am at times one that thinks outside the box so I'll ask one more opinion from you. Maybe this could be a factor, maybe not but here's another way I'm thinking...you know how it's said, when a person has hair transplants they will lose hair because it "shocks" the existing follicles.
> Well, I have to wonder, forcing a 1.50 mm roller-needle into the scalp to "wound it" couldn't that also produce some "shocking" to the scalp-hair and cause another reason to shed too?
> It almost seems, with any type of "save/regrow the hair treatment" whether it be deep-Dermarollering/needling, topicals a Minoxidil, RU58841 or ingesting pills as fin, dut etc or the extreme side of the treatment being hair transplants, there's no way to prevent the existing hairs from going through a hefty and depressing shedding phase.


 It would take a lot more then a 1.5mm needle to cause shock loss. A hair transplant wound takes on average 3-4 days to heal. Wounds from a 1.5mm derma roller heal in 1 hour. That means shock loss occurs(sometimes) from wounds about a 100 times greater then what a 1.5mm derma roller causes.

----------


## HMDWN

> I found the roller gouged into my scalp and did not leave a balanced treatment area, I found it took awhile to heal up and I did have an infection  from it. It did have some effect but I don't use it anymore. I have moved onto to the next level instrument and use a different mix to rub in., I'm one year older than you but I'm having really good results now. In short the roller is an ok introduction to start the results your after but long term too much pain.


  I've been researching dermarollers to find they're not all created equal!
Not sure if this applies to your roller but I've seen some close-up videos of the cheaper modles where a so called "dermaroller" didn't have 'needles' but what looked more like little knife ends that would leave a "slice" in the skin vs a needle puncture!
Anyhow, I'm ordering a 192 dermaroller & 6 months of Kirkland 5% minoxidil for $25...not pleased to read it's so darn oily and takes hours to dry but 6 months of Kirkland vs one month for Lipogaine brand @ $25 is a, no brainer.  
I would like to use RU, but the cost per month and questioning if it's a good batch deters me from that idea.
Maybe see a dermatologist too, to get on Fin 1.25 a day....fingers crossed!

----------


## Trouse5858

This has most likely been answered more than once but I'd like to avoid sifting through 235 pages of this thread.  Are you all applying minox on the scalp immediately following a derma-roll session or are you waiting a few hours/ a day?  It makes sense that right after would be the best window for the minox to penetrate to the follicle but I've also read that minox isn't to be applied to "broken" skin.  Also, anybody have any experience doing the same thing for facial hair?  If I'm going to be bald, having at least decent facial hair would be a big boon for me.  Thanks

----------


## youngin

> This has most likely been answered more than once but I'd like to avoid sifting through 235 pages of this thread.  Are you all applying minox on the scalp immediately following a derma-roll session or are you waiting a few hours/ a day?  It makes sense that right after would be the best window for the minox to penetrate to the follicle but I've also read that minox isn't to be applied to "broken" skin.  Also, anybody have any experience doing the same thing for facial hair?  If I'm going to be bald, having at least decent facial hair would be a big boon for me.  Thanks


 Most people aren't but the best case responder is applying after. Probably not immediately. Personally I wait about 30 min and then apply it. There is no ill effects from doing it.

----------


## doinmyheadin

Are there any pictures of successful regrowth with dermarolling with or without minoxidil?

----------


## Gossip

This looks like a successful procedure after 3 months; of 41 years old male from Greek hairloss forum with dermapen plus supplements. (a lot of things although)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...910/h1AG1w.png

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...903/6XKDPK.png

http://www.hairlossgr.com/threads/wo...4%CE%B1.10640/

----------


## Gossip

There is an update at first page. New photos two weeks ago

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...903/4gErT2.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...633/L8SirE.jpg

----------


## cardib

hi gossip, are you currently derma rolling? any success?


> There is an update at first page. New photos two weeks ago
> 
> http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...903/4gErT2.jpg
> 
> http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...633/L8SirE.jpg

----------


## Trouse5858

I'm two weeks into derma rolling with a .5 mm roller. Doing the temples in addition the crown/ vertex.  Only slight redness afterwards and mild discomfort at most. Going to see if this allows for any increased absorption of minox, since I'm only going to be taking it once per day now. I'll update in a couple months regardless of success.

----------


## bboyforever

This thread isn't about increased absorption of topicals. It's about wounding the scalp to activate growth factors. People were using 1.5mm or more. 0.5 mm was far too shallow to cause any effect. Read the thread (at very least the beginning few pages) before posting. Your experiment is of no value to us.

----------


## epipapilla

> This thread isn't about increased absorption of topicals. It's about wounding the scalp to activate growth factors. People were using 1.5mm or more. 0.5 mm was far too shallow to cause any effect. Read the thread (at very least the beginning few pages) before posting. Your experiment is of no value to us.


 That is entirely true. From my own personal experience the best use of a dermaroller is for the wound healing aspect and not for increased absorption of any topical serum you are using in order to try to achieve hair regrowth.

----------


## Vic

I rolled with some decent results. I am about to begin my 2nd round. This time I am using a topical that increases growth factor response and supplementing with Amino acids that encourage cell proliferation. Trying to mimic what makes mice grow so much more hair after wounding than humans and it all comes down to what's in the skin. I'll update once I begin. Good luck to us all.

----------


## jamesst11

> That is entirely true. From my own personal experience the best use of a dermaroller is for the wound healing aspect and not for increased absorption of any topical serum you are using in order to try to achieve hair regrowth.


 why can't it be used for both?  I think the wound healing aspect is key, that's why a 1.5mm is critical... but, with applying RU and high concentration minox with AA and hydrocortisone, I think some people may get great benefits, no?

----------


## Chromeo

I'd recommend anyone needling for wounding purposes get off the dermaroller and get hold of a dermastamp. I find it much, much easier to get the job done with a stamp, especially if you're treating a larger area of scalp.

----------


## cardib

james have you seen actual regrowt with the derma rolling?

i feel like theres so many ppl talking about rolling, but not reporting on any regroth? what have your results been so far


> why can't it be used for both?  I think the wound healing aspect is key, that's why a 1.5mm is critical... but, with applying RU and high concentration minox with AA and hydrocortisone, I think some people may get great benefits, no?

----------


## jamesst11

> james have you seen actual regrowt with the derma rolling?
> 
> i feel like theres so many ppl talking about rolling, but not reporting on any regroth? what have your results been so far


 I just started a couple weeks ago... it definitely makes my scalp feel great the next day, that's about it so far

----------


## Valy003

Where do you buy sucralfate?I know that it can't penetrate the skin because it has a molecular weight for about 1000.And for something to penetrate the skin,it has to be max 500

----------


## doke

> Where do you buy sucralfate?I know that it can't penetrate the skin because it has a molecular weight for about 1000.And for something to penetrate the skin,it has to be max 500


 Bloody hell I have not heard of sulcralfate for many years that's a really old hairloss product that did nothing holy moly.
I Tried it its a gastric product made from fructose a suger when I used it it was powder that was a bit sticky on the scalp and did not do anything.

----------


## HMDWN

> Bloody hell I have not heard of sulcralfate for many years that's a really old hairloss product that did nothing holy moly.
> I Tried it its a gastric product made from fructose a suger when I used it it was powder that was a bit sticky on the scalp and did not do anything.


  Not sure of your age but back in the mid late 70's "Bio-Genesis Original Helsinki Formula System" was the smoke & mirrors miracle cure > > > that did nothing.

----------


## ledhead

Is there a general census with rolling? A lot to read through here...

----------


## PrettyFly83

> I have used minoxidil and I went from what he had to a more than decent head of hair too.
> 
> So I think I have some experience about this. These are rare stellar minoxidil results but they do happen.
> 
> Don't get your hopes up. PrettyFly will return to baseline in a year or so. 
> 
> As if dermarolling would work on only 1 person out of thousands who tried it. Have some common sense here.


 Return to baseline? Doesn't look that way

3 Year Update, ~6 months since last progress pics

Thought I post an update as I'm still getting gains from this treatment:

First pic:            ~1 year into treatment
Second Pic:       ~2.5 years on treatment
Third pic:           ~ 3 years on treatment (6 months since last pic)

You can see the time and date stamps in the picture headings

One thing I added in the last 3 months is a Betadine based shampoo which I use prior to rolling which is about once every 1.5-2 weeks.

Ive had some new regrowth on my temple which was slick for the last 8 years and some of the hairs are clearly turning terminal. Wondering if the Betadine shampoo has been responsible for this latest regrowth....?

Ive highlighted the area

----------


## Vic

> Return to baseline? Doesn't look that way
> 
> 3 Year Update, ~6 months since last progress pics
> 
> Thought I post an update as I'm still getting gains from this treatment:
> 
> First pic:            ~1 year into treatment
> Second Pic:       ~2.5 years on treatment
> Third pic:           ~ 3 years on treatment (6 months since last pic)
> ...


 Thanks for the update Fly, great progress. I haven't rolled for months now but still use Rogaine. I haven't seen improvement since I stopped rolling. Really need to start again. 
When I did roll, I used a Betadine solution right before rolling each and every time.

----------


## doke

Has anyone  had problems with posting as I have been a long time bt member I seem for the first time to seeing posts not showing?

----------


## doke

ok the site is working again now very strange.

----------


## HelloVera

Hey Vic have you tried Dr Bronner's peppermint soap? been using it for a couple weeks now, i add rosemary, teatree and lavender into it. Haven't noticed much on the frontal front but the temples just above my eyelashes to about 2 inch up has been sprouting darker vellous hair about 2cm long with more getting darker and growing each time, my crown seems thicker and got darker vellous hair growing at my nape, which is the only place i don't dermaroll. I roll 5mm every 3 days and 1.5cm every 10 days.

----------


## 79BirdofPrey

> Hey Vic have you tried Dr Bronner's peppermint soap? been using it for a couple weeks now, i add rosemary, teatree and lavender into it. Haven't noticed much on the frontal front but the temples just above my eyelashes to about 2 inch up has been sprouting darker vellous hair about 2cm long with more getting darker and growing each time, my crown seems thicker and got darker vellous hair growing at my nape, which is the only place i don't dermaroll. I roll 5mm every 3 days and 1.5cm every 10 days.


 Are you adding essential oils? How much of each?

----------


## Soonbald

> Return to baseline? Doesn't look that way
> 
> 3 Year Update, ~6 months since last progress pics
> 
> Thought I post an update as I'm still getting gains from this treatment:
> 
> First pic:            ~1 year into treatment
> Second Pic:       ~2.5 years on treatment
> Third pic:           ~ 3 years on treatment (6 months since last pic)
> ...


 


have you only been dermarolling? what mm on the derma needle and how often do u dermaroll? you dont use minox or anything else?? seems like u got alot more hair wtf..

----------


## Vic

> Hey Vic have you tried Dr Bronner's peppermint soap? been using it for a couple weeks now, i add rosemary, teatree and lavender into it. Haven't noticed much on the frontal front but the temples just above my eyelashes to about 2 inch up has been sprouting darker vellous hair about 2cm long with more getting darker and growing each time, my crown seems thicker and got darker vellous hair growing at my nape, which is the only place i don't dermaroll. I roll 5mm every 3 days and 1.5cm every 10 days.


 Nice! I haven't heard of it but going to give it a try. Thanks!

----------


## HelloVera

Hey 79birdofprey. I'm only using  essential oils when i shampoo every 2 days. The castile soap i use has peppermint, olive oil extract, coconut oil and jojoba oil and i add 5 drops of rosemary, lavender and teatree into the bottle of soap. Only started using the Castile shampoo because keto shampoo makes my hair shred like crazy with no benefits.

----------


## HelloVera

forgot to put i drench my scalp in ice cold water before and after shampoo'ing

----------


## PrettyFly83

> have you only been dermarolling? what mm on the derma needle and how often do u dermaroll? you dont use minox or anything else?? seems like u got alot more hair wtf..


 My daily regime is:
 Minox 2ml
 1 gram vita C, 1 gram MSM
 Zinc Supplement (supplement Zinc 18mg, Vit A 10 000iu, Vit B6 20mg)

Weekly:
 Roll for 5min with 1.5mm roller in crisscross pattern over entire scalp
 Very painful but dont use any numbing cream etc. I get spots of blood all over
 I sterilise my roller thoroughly before and after
 Occasionally I rub 100% VitC in distilled water over my head for sunspots (havent done this for over a year)
Added: Betadine shampoo before rolling over last 3 months, wash my head under cold water, leave in for 5 min then wash out with cold water and roll.
I have always applied minox straight after rolling and experienced no sides

----------


## rakewell

Just thought I'd share, as I haven't yet seen it brought up, that even the best dermaroller (many consider Dr Roller to be the best) only have about 20 uses before they should be changed. From what I understand, the needles go blunt and blunt needles should not be used. Perhaps it's  bit like shavers going blunt. If you're using a cheaper brand then check with your seller on how many uses you can get.

On a side note, I'd like to thank pretty fly for posting his progress and being open and honest about his experience on this thread. Especially in spite of some negative, unhelpful comments.

----------


## Nerve

Can one of the regular contributors to this thread make a concise post about what has been learnt in this thread?
I want to give Dermarolling a try but I do not want to be wasting my time by getting it wrong.

What is the prevailing consensus in regards to type of roller to buy and methods in which to do it?

Thanks

----------


## VictimOfDHT

> Return to baseline? Doesn't look that way
> 
> 
> 
> Ive had some new regrowth on my temple which was slick for the last 8 years and some of the hairs are clearly turning terminal. Wondering if the Betadine shampoo has been responsible for this latest regrowth....?
> 
> Ive highlighted the area
> 
> Attachment 45943


 
So are you saying you think the regrowth is due to using the shampoo, not the dermarolling?

----------


## PrettyFly83

Hard to say, I had a jump in regrowth over the last three months and the only addition was the Betadine based shampoo. Just noting the correlation. It may have just been a synchronized growth phase and the shampoo has had no impact. The original study used Betadine to sterilize the scalp I believe but maybe someone with a bit more knowledge on the science of iodine and hairgrowth can chime in?

----------


## user111

Hi everyone. First of all and since this is my first post on this forum - sorry for my english as it is not my native language.
Next. Since I'm not satisfied with plain minoxidil (5%, + 4 ml of dimexid per 60 ml bottle for improved drug absorbability) effectiveness in my case, I'm thinking to try using 1.5 mm dermaroller in addition to it. But there are some questions I haven't found answers for yet. Maybe some of you can answer any of these.

1. Are there some long-term consequences of regular 1.5 mm dermaroller using? Will injures done with it count towards Hayflick limit? What terrible things could possibly happen if I'll use 1.5 mm dermaroller for ~15 years or so?
2. Is it possible to regrow some hair with 5% minox + roller combo, then stop rolling and just maintain them with only 5% minox? Or the formula "maintain is easier then achieve" doest't work in this case? Do any of you tried this approach?
3. In the mentioned study they applied minox 24 hours after the dermaroller using. Is it safe to apply it the same day?
4. 192 needles vs 540 needles? What type of (1 - 1.5 mm) roller do you use?
5. I didn't read all 200+ pages of current thread. Are there any confirmed noticable positive result of using 1 - 1.5 mm dermaroller in addition to 5% minoxidil like those in the mentioned study?

----------


## OnCollinsAve

Does dermarolling and minoxidil cause more irritation?

----------


## markusbdc

So Doke - Do you have any personal experience with sucralfate on your own MBP you could relate?

----------


## Nerve

> My daily regime is:
> • Minox 2ml
> • 1 gram vita C, 1 gram MSM
> • Zinc Supplement (supplement Zinc 18mg, Vit A 10 000iu, Vit B6 20mg)
> 
> Weekly:
> • Roll for 5min with 1.5mm roller in crisscross pattern over entire scalp
> • Very painful but don’t use any numbing cream etc. I get spots of blood all over
> • I sterilise my roller thoroughly before and after
> ...


 Just out of interest, what do you sterilise your roller with?

----------


## doke

> So Doke - Do you have any personal experience with sucralfate on your own MBP you could relate?


 Hi not really only that this is a way old treatment and I did buy the pills and crushed them I had to put it through a strainer due to the bulking agents it turned into a lotion that was a bit sticky as it is sucrose I think.
If it worked anyway I think we would all know by now.

----------


## tipsfedora

Can I use hair fibers with dermarolling ?

----------


## Miiw

Hey guys! I posted a separate thread for my results! 

Here is the straight quote from my post, and also my results!

"Hey Guys!

I've been reading the forum for some time, but I just recently decided to register and share my story.

In short: I'm 25 years old, been balding from my early 20's. Went from thick full head of hair to thin hair in a matter of few years. Decided to buzz my hair, I was pretty happy, look pretty decent with the "bald / buzzed " hair style.
Yet sometimes I felt that I didn't want to be completely bald at my age, the feeling that we all young balders get I reckon.
So I was pretty excited when I found about the dermaroller study that was made back in 2013.
So I thought what the heck, let's try it.

First I started with Rogaine 5% and Ketoconazol 2%, after 1 month on Rogaine & Keto I added derma roller and Saw Palmetto to the regime and here are the results!
I gotta say I'm really pleased with the result so far! And they say that Rogaine shouldn't even show any signs of improvement before the 3 month mark!
Especially I'm surprised how much of my hairline got back!
The redness in the after picture is due to the derma roller treatment I did just before the photo.

Open to any questions etc.
If you want more pics etc, let me know. "

----------


## Seuxin

Very good dude !

Add stemoxydine, Dutasteride and a little of Licl when you dermaroll and you will gain new hair too !

----------


## HMDWN

I guess the thing to see is 'if' those hairs actually cycle into full length growing hairs or if they don't...bu it would keep it up.

----------


## Miiw

Let's keep our fingers crossed! Amazing results so far!  :Smile:

----------


## Miiw

Here is one more pic! From today! In a bit better light and a bit longer hair. Shows the less thicker areas better also!

----------


## HMDWN

> Here is one more pic! From today! In a bit better light and a bit longer hair. Shows the less thicker areas better also!


 Certainly looks promising...let it grow!
Give info if Rogaine is generic or name brand, foam or liquid, once or twice a day and Ketoconazol 2% is the shampoo?
What dosage of Saw Palmetto as I've to have ANY benefit to hair the dosage levels are off the charts!

----------


## Miiw

Rogaine is indeed just that, Rogaine in the liquid form. They don't sell any other Minoxidil products in where I live, so I "have to" go with the original. It tends to be a bit pricey, but at least it seems to be working. 
I apply it twice a day, so that I cover my whole scalp. The guide says to do 6 presses, which should give you 1ml of Minoxidil, but I'm doing around 10 presses, just to cover my whole scalp.
Ketoconazol is indeed the shampoo, which should stimulate hair growth, more so with minoxidil / Rogaine.  It also helps if you get itchy scalp with Minoxidil. I use it every other day, eventually planning to do it 3 times / week.

I'm taking 820 mg of Saw Palmetto once a day. Hard to tell the difference so early on. Should see some results in 3-6 month time. Saw Palmetto *should* work in the same way as Finasteride, blocking DHT, but the evidence are quite controversial to say the least. So I guess, the best way to find out, is to try it on oneself.

For the dermarolling I'm using two microneedle sizes, 1,0mm and 0,3mm, I use the 1,0mm once a week and the 0,3mm every to every other day.

----------


## Seuxin

> Here is one more pic! From today! In a bit better light and a bit longer hair. Shows the less thicker areas better also!


 Impressive dude !

----------


## cardib

immmmm, this would be impressive if you were not a first time user of minox. its most likely growth from the minox, eps since your a first time user, and your age.

if you were previously on min, and fin, and then added the rolling and saw this, then it would be something.




> Impressive dude !

----------


## Vic

> immmmm, this would be impressive if you were not a first time user of minox. its most likely growth from the minox, eps since your a first time user, and your age.
> 
> if you were previously on min, and fin, and then added the rolling and saw this, then it would be something.


 Strange cause minox usually 1st causes a shed, THEN you see your first signs of growth after 3 months, if you even do see any results with minox.

----------


## Miiw

Thank you guys for the positive feedback! I'll be uploading another photo when I hit the 10 week mark!  :Smile:

----------


## cardib

ok, so the classic paper on derma needling, they didnt see results until he 6 month mark, and this guy has seen results in less than 2 months needling?
vic, since you are one of the few users on this forum who have rolled consistently, how long did you see results rolling? and did it just grow baby villus hairs, or real terminal growth?

from what i can remember, and please correct me if I'm wrong; it seems that no one has had as much regrowth with needling as the study subjects in the india study




> Strange cause minox usually 1st causes a shed, THEN you see your first signs of growth after 3 months, if you even do see any results with minox.

----------


## Miiw

> Strange cause minox usually 1st causes a shed, THEN you see your first signs of growth after 3 months, if you even do see any results with minox.


 


> ok, so the classic paper on derma needling, they didnt see results until he 6 month mark, and this guy has seen results in less than 2 months needling?
> vic, since you are one of the few users on this forum who have rolled consistently, how long did you see results rolling? and did it just grow baby villus hairs, or real terminal growth?
> 
> from what i can remember, and please correct me if I'm wrong; it seems that no one has had as much regrowth with needling as the study subjects in the india study


 You should remember the original subject of the study. It wasn't so much about only microneedling as a hairloss cure, it was more about the combined effect of Minoxidil and microneedling, versus only using Minoxidil.

As Cardib pointed out, my results might be so good, because I'm using Minoxidil for the first time. As a matter of fact, this is my first time trying any hairloss "cure", so probably it's the combined effect of them all working. And I can ensure you, I've been very consistent with the applications of my regime.

Also my young age is probably one of the reason for the good result, as my hair follicles might have been dormant, but not yet completely gone. As long as you have an active hair follicle, even if it just provides unnoticeable little tiny hairs, they can be renewed with the treatments. When the follicle is gone, it's gone for good. That's why it's crucial to start the treatments as soon as you notice the first signs, had I started my treatment even earlier the results would be even better.

What would I seriously gain by posting fake results here? I was hoping to give you guys some hope, that for some, (may it be because of the young age or genes), these treatments might just work.

----------


## Miiw

Week 10

----------


## Vic

> ok, so the classic paper on derma needling, they didnt see results until he 6 month mark, and this guy has seen results in less than 2 months needling?
> vic, since you are one of the few users on this forum who have rolled consistently, how long did you see results rolling? and did it just grow baby villus hairs, or real terminal growth?
> 
> from what i can remember, and please correct me if I'm wrong; it seems that no one has had as much regrowth with needling as the study subjects in the india study


 I think Prettyfly had some nice results and Miiw is showing better results then anyone. Better then the study itself. I grew mostly peach fuzz/darker then peach fuzz but had two fully terminal hairs grow on my previously completely bald left temple. 

I've never seen results like Miiw's.

----------


## Miiw

Thank you Vic! Nice to hear, that I'm having good results!

When would you guys like to see next progress photo? Week 12 ?

----------


## Miiw

Hey guys!

Went through my phone and found another set of photos of the progress in another light ( led lights ) from my work.

Goes like following:

Baseline -> 6 weeks -> 10 weeks "long" hair -> 10 weeks short hair

----------


## PrettyFly83

> Hey guys!
> 
> Went through my phone and found another set of photos of the progress in another light ( led lights ) from my work.
> 
> Goes like following:
> 
> Baseline -> 6 weeks -> 10 weeks "long" hair -> 10 weeks short hair
> 
> Attachment 48759Attachment 48760Attachment 48761Attachment 48762


 Incredible!!  

Finally someone else has had significant success with this treatment, well done Miiw 10 weeks is phenomenal for this amount of gains. Seems you were in a very similar state to when I started both it terms of loss and treatments. My regrowth is still here after 3.5 years fyi so keep at it man.

----------


## PrettyFly83

Double post

----------


## JulioGP

> Incredible!!  
> 
> Finally someone else has had significant success with this treatment, well done Miiw 10 weeks is phenomenal for this amount of gains. Seems you were in a very similar state to when I started both it terms of loss and treatments. My regrowth is still here after 3.5 years fyi so keep at it man.


 I've seen several other result with the Dermaroller. 
Before


After 3 Months:


People are behind miracle products, but often simple things give more results.

Here in this topic has several pictures of results at the beginning, I believe you have not seen.

----------


## Skin

> I've seen several other result with the Dermaroller. 
> Before
> 
> 
> After 3 Months:
> 
> 
> People are behind miracle products, but often simple things give more results.
> 
> Here in this topic has several pictures of results at the beginning, I believe you have not seen.


 This is encouraging.  At such a high Norwood level too.

----------


## PrettyFly83

> This is encouraging.  At such a high Norwood level too.


 ha ha ....

yes thats me at the start, think 3 or 6 months in

----------


## Skin

How are your results now? I've caught some of your post and you have been incredibly persistent. 

I'm just finishing my first month and so far so good. By that I mean I'm getting on with weekly rolling and I'm not suffering with it!.

I'm also 3 months in to the big 3 along with stemoxydine.

I can see the fin and min kicking in. But I feel it's too early for anything to write home about with the rolling.

Im hoping ill be posting about visible success by christmas.

----------


## Miiw

Hey guys! Once again thank you for the positive feedback!  :Smile: 

Here's week 12+, harder to tell if I've made any significant gains from the last pic. The hair seems thicker tho. What do you think?

----------


## k9gatton

It's great to be here. Hellouser, you're the man.

----------


## Skin

> Hey guys! Once again thank you for the positive feedback! 
> 
> Here's week 12+, harder to tell if I've made any significant gains from the last pic. The hair seems thicker tho. What do you think?
> 
> Attachment 48921


 Looks like continued progress to me. Good work.

----------


## Miiw

> Looks like continued progress to me. Good work.


 Thank you Skin! 

How are you doing?  :Smile:

----------


## Skin

> Thank you Skin! 
> 
> How are you doing?


 Well thank you. Something is starting to work for me. Just over a month on derma rolling. So hoping to see some magic in a couple of months.  

Your results are helping me maintain my will!

----------


## pilipili

> Hey guys! Once again thank you for the positive feedback! 
> 
> Here's week 12+, harder to tell if I've made any significant gains from the last pic. The hair seems thicker tho. What do you think?
> 
> Attachment 48921


 Impressive results so far.. But I missed the info: do you apply minox immeditaley after dermarollng? or you wait 24h to apply like stated in the study . thx

----------


## Miiw

> Impressive results so far.. But I missed the info: do you apply minox immeditaley after dermarollng? or you wait 24h to apply like stated in the study . thx


 Right after dermarolling. Haven't noticed any side effects, except dry scalp, tends to flake dandruff-like white flakes from time to time.

----------


## Miiw

Here's also one comparison in different light and in different place and a bit longer hair. 

These photos are really showing the constantly improving hair thickness and hairline..!

Week 8 -> Exactly week 13 (taken today)

----------


## Only22

Is it worth trying dermarolling without minox? Can't use minox anymore and Ive only been using regenpure for a year which has definitely slowed my hair loss down but need to add something else to slow down even further! 

Thanks Guys

----------


## JulioGP

Miiw,
Your result is truly amazing.

Just to remember, you are using dermaroller 1 or 2 times a week? And what is the dermaroller size you use, 1mm?

----------


## Miiw

> Miiw,
> Your result is truly amazing.
> 
> Just to remember, you are using dermaroller 1 or 2 times a week? And what is the dermaroller size you use, 1mm?


 I use 1mm dermaroller once a week and 0,3mm dermaroller every 2 days!

-edit
and thanks for the compliment !  :Smile: 




> Is it worth trying dermarolling without minox? Can't use minox anymore and Ive only been using regenpure for a year which has definitely slowed my hair loss down but need to add something else to slow down even further! 
> 
> Thanks Guys


 I really think that Minoxdil is a big part of the microneedling process and as a combination they work very well! But you could give it a try at least! Try a six month period for example and then you can see if there's any improvement. You can't lose anything and dermarollers are relatively cheap to buy!

----------


## Skin

> I use 1mm dermaroller once a week and 0,3mm dermaroller every 2 days!
> 
> -edit
> and thanks for the compliment ! 
> 
> 
> 
> I really think that Minoxdil is a big part of the microneedling process and as a combination they work very well! But you could give it a try at least! Try a six month period for example and then you can see if there's any improvement. You can't lose anything and dermarollers are relatively cheap to buy!


 Nice work. And thanks for your updates.

How hard are you rolling? Much bleeding?

----------


## Miiw

> Nice work. And thanks for your updates.
> 
> How hard are you rolling? Much bleeding?


 Thanks and my pleasure, if I can help you guys out with my experiences!

I roll with the pressure of my relaxed hand on the dermaroller, with the 1mm roller I do get some bleeding, but not that much. The 0,3mm gives me some redness, but not bleeding, propably because of the small needle size!

----------


## Skin

> Thanks and my pleasure, if I can help you guys out with my experiences.
> 
> I roll with the pressure of my relaxed hand on the dermaroller, with the 1mm roller I do get some bleeding, but not that much. The 0,3mm gives me some redness, but not bleeding, propably because of the small needle size!


 Thanks that's good to know.  I think I've been going too hard. Last time o did it I had lots of blood. I think I'm going to ease back on the pressure. At the moment I'm pushing it down quite hard. 

If you don't mind me asking how old are you and is it the first time you have used minox?  I know some guys would say If it's the first time you've done minoxidil then the results could be down to that. However I have only very rarely seen minox work so well for anyone.  So I'm pretty sure it's the rolling.

----------


## Miiw

> Thanks that's good to know.  I think I've been going too hard. Last time o did it I had lots of blood. I think I'm going to ease back on the pressure. At the moment I'm pushing it down quite hard. 
> 
> If you don't mind me asking how old are you and is it the first time you have used minox?  I know some guys would say If it's the first time you've done minoxidil then the results could be down to that. However I have only very rarely seen minox work so well for anyone.  So I'm pretty sure it's the rolling.


 I'm 25 and this is indeed the first time I'm using any hairloss treatment. So Saw Palmetto, Nizoral, Minoxidil and the rolling are all surely adding up to the result. Hard to say which one of them is the biggest factor. Probably them all combined!

----------


## Skin

I'm 37. I was around 25 wheniu first used minoxidil.  I did not get as good results as you at all. So i really do believe rolling is a big player.

I'm definitely getting results from my current treatment.  Weirdly I have temple growth which I didn't get before when I did minox. But this time I'm on a topical fin and min.

Again I'm really happy to see your results.

----------


## mic28

Hi Skin and Miiw, would you guys be able to provide details on what topical fin and minox you're using? I ordered a 1.5mm dermaroller yesterday. I'm a diffuse thinner/loser

----------


## Skin

> Hi Skin and Miiw, would you guys be able to provide details on what topical fin and minox you're using? I ordered a 1.5mm dermaroller yesterday. I'm a diffuse thinner/loser


 Hi mic.

I'm using morr f 5. Topical fin and min (all in one). And stemoxydine. I also use nizoral shampoo 2x a week and caffeine shampoo the rest of the week. 

I roll once a week with a 1.5.

Good luck!

----------


## Miiw

> Hi Skin and Miiw, would you guys be able to provide details on what topical fin and minox you're using? I ordered a 1.5mm dermaroller yesterday. I'm a diffuse thinner/loser


 
I use only minoxidil (Rogaine brand), not using finasteride at all in any form. You could also try Nizoral (Ketoconazol) and Saw Palmetto! Good luck mate!

----------


## k9gatton

> I'm 37. I was around 25 wheniu first used minoxidil.  I did not get as good results as you at all. So i really do believe rolling is a big player.
> 
> I'm definitely getting results from my current treatment.  Weirdly I have temple growth which I didn't get before when I did minox. But this time I'm on a topical fin and min.
> 
> Again I'm really happy to see your results.


 That's what I'm using. Think I'm going to post a thread with pictures about my topical Progesterone experience. I use all three in one topical. That is Minoxidil, Finasteride, and Progesterone.

----------


## markusbdc

> Very good dude !
> 
> Add stemoxydine, Dutasteride and a little of Licl when you dermaroll and you will gain new hair too !


 
I am on dutasteride and I can tell you that one should probably save it for a last resort. I have had some significant sexual side effects and they aren't fun. I at this point (I'm 61 and switched from Finasteride about 4 months ago as it stopped working) wouldn't recommend it. It is a very powerful anti-androgen and you are chemically castrating yourself in return for a shot at hair preservation..Do your due diligence first....

----------


## Skin

> That's what I'm using. Think I'm going to post a thread with pictures about my topical Progesterone experience. I use all three in one topical. That is Minoxidil, Finasteride, and Progesterone.


 Yeah log it. Are you rolling?

----------


## KeepHoping

> Here's also one comparison in different light and in different place and a bit longer hair. 
> 
> These photos are really showing the constantly improving hair thickness and hairline..!
> 
> Week 8 -> Exactly week 13 (taken today)
> 
> Attachment 49006Attachment 49007


 Would you be willing to send the link to where you purchased your rollers?  Would greatly appreciate it, thank you!

----------


## KeepHoping

Also, a few more questions...

1. Has anyone else seen results with a 1mm roller?
2. How many people are applying minox directly after rolling?

Thank you!

----------


## Miiw

Here's some updates (week 13-14)

Here's long hair and then again short hair, after buzzing my hair down, pics from today.

----------


## Miiw

And then again,

Baseline -> Today, after +13 weeks of treatment

----------


## Miiw

> Would you be willing to send the link to where you purchased your rollers?  Would greatly appreciate it, thank you!


 Hey!

I'm from Finland and I bought the roller from a local pharmacy, it's pretty basic: 1mm and 540 needles! So any roller with those specs should be good enough I reckon!  :Smile:

----------


## KeepHoping

> Hey!
> 
> I'm from Finland and I bought the roller from a local pharmacy, it's pretty basic: 1mm and 540 needles! So any roller with those specs should be good enough I reckon!


 Thanks for responding! Can I ask when you roll with the smaller roller, the 0.3mm, do you roll at night and then immediately apply the minox afterward?

----------


## k9gatton

> Here's some updates (week 13-14)
> 
> Here's long hair and then again short hair, after buzzing my hair down, pics from today.


 Good work.

It's too late in life for me to start this. Wish I started it earlier, because now I have a Norwood 3
vertex hairline.

----------


## 79BirdofPrey

My hair is about 3" long...can I dermaroll? I'm afraid the hairs will get caught in the roller. Can someone recommend a dermaroller to get?

----------


## Makuhito

What did you hairline look like before with long hair?

----------


## sayian

I don`t get you guys supplementing with high amounts of Vit A, since Vit A in high amounts is known to produce hairloss.

----------


## k9gatton

> I don`t get you guys supplementing with high amounts of Vit A, since Vit A in high amounts is known to produce hairloss.


 It might even do more damage than that. It is fat soluble.

----------


## elvispresley

hi guys i have some questions if you can help me, i would like to start try this dermaroller but my situation is particular.

my hairloss is at the vertex basically i have only the vertex gone fully. all my hair are very long so that i cover my crown . (like gareth bale just my crown is fully gone...)

so my idea is to shave the hair at the vertex (nearly nothing) and start dermarolling. but i have no idea on how to do it and how to start.

so your suggestions and help are welcome.

questions:

0- where i can buy dermaroller ? (i am actually in malaysia)
1-what peculiarity the dermaroller must have ? example the needle 1.5 as i read a the beginning or other things that MUST have , so that i buy the correct one.
2- where i can find a video on how to use it ? if you have some link or instructions. 
3- i am not going to use finasteride or other chemicals , do you think will be a decent try? or i must combine it with some medicines?
4-what is the minimium amount of time before i get some changes, based on your experience?


please let me know if you have time thanks a lot.

----------


## elvispresley

im reading the old posts and thanks to Miiw im getting many info.
please let me know if this minox is good for a 6 months try and if the price is convenient or not (i have never used anything until now)

MINOX in malasia : 

http://www.11street.my/productdetail...1400014010&v=1

dermaroller 1mm= http://www.lazada.com.my/derma-micro...k-1903437.html

please tell me they are good for starting thanks  :Smile:

----------


## 79BirdofPrey

Can someone recommend good dermaroller(s) here in the US?

----------


## Sean

Can someone point me to an actual study regarding the dermaroller and its safety?

Has anyone had adverse effects?

Any infections?

Any added hairloss?

Any added scar tissue?

Anything detrimental?  Thanks.

----------


## BBay

yes  to a study  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3746236/
Has anyone had adverse effects?
Not that I know of using micro pen , derma roller yes the rolling pins gouged scalp

Any infections?
from roller not cleaned pins properly caused infection


Any added hairloss?
yes see this doctors video link 
http://agelessclinics.com.au/hair-regrowth/

Any added scar tissue?
none

Anything detrimental? Thanks.
yes cost more to have hair cuts

----------


## BBay

0- where i can buy dermaroller ? (i am actually in malaysia)
  buy a micro pen from China with 12 needles, roller will kill you with the pain
1-what peculiarity the dermaroller must have ? example the needle 1.5 as i read a the beginning or other things that MUST have , so that i buy the correct one. 
According to micro needle 0.5 is good for front part, back part up to 1mm, no need to go deeper
2- where i can find a video on how to use it ? if you have some link or instructions. 
check this link with doctor in Sydney  he sells kits http://agelessclinics.com.au/hair-regrowth/

3- i am not going to use finasteride or other chemicals , do you think will be a decent try? or i must combine it with some medicines?
he has 2 formulas one with nutrients and vitamins that you rub in once you micro needle and the second is pharmceutical you need doc prescription to to get it
4-what is the minimium amount of time before i get some changes, based on your experience?
check the video


please let me know if you have time thanks a lot.
3- i am not going to use finasteride or other chemicals , do you think will be a decent try? or i must combine it with some medicines?
4-what is the minimium amount of time before i get some changes, based on your experience?


please let me know if you have time thanks a lot.

----------


## HMDWN

"see this doctors video link
http://agelessclinics.com.au/hair-regrowth/"...that seems shady as heck

----------


## BBay

yes it could seem that way, but Aussie's are lousy marketers, need to take a leaf out of Americans way of marketing. I can only give my personal experience, I was the "guinea pig tester" for the older guys in their  late fifties with thinning hair and I will be using  my home  hair kit for a long time to come with the results I have.

----------


## HMDWN

> yes it could seem that way, but Aussie's are lousy marketers, need to take a leaf out of Americans way of marketing. I can only give my personal experience, I was the "guinea pig tester" for the older guys in their  late fifties with thinning hair and I will be using  my home  hair kit for a long time to come with the results I have.


 All due respects but even in the "before" pic there is no face, nothing to reference that is remotely the same person! Seems like a 'Snake Oil' cure to me.

----------


## elvispresley

ok thanks guys, 

today i will start minoxidil spray + dermaroller 1mm once a week. (next week i will add also the 0.25mm dermaroller 2x a week, so total 3x dermarolled x week 1mm x1 0.25mm x2)

i will use minoxidil also once a week. 24 hours after the derma rolling.

i have a question , how do you clean the dermaroller ? and how often you clean it? 

thank you.

 :Wink:

----------


## elvispresley

also another question, 

as i said i will use minoxidil spray once a week.

so i ask you guys if there are some homemade NATURAL liquids or spray i can home make , for example 

juicing onions + garlic + apple cider vinegar, that in a way or another can help regrow. so that i can use this natural cheap liquid or spray every day and MINOXIDIL just once a week

please let me know if u know thx  :Smile:

----------


## MG63

Has anyone ever tried a derma rolling followed by topical Caffeine?

----------


## k9gatton

> Has anyone ever tried a derma rolling followed by topical Caffeine?


 Never tried it myself. My Minoxidil dosage is too high (thirty percent). Probably bad side effects for me if
I tried doing that.

----------


## Miiw

Hey guys!

Sorry that I haven't posted anything for a while! Been busy at work! 

Also I had some major shedding around week 15, I'd like to contribute that to Saw Palmetto, since I hit the 3 month mark with it, just when I started shedding.
After the shed, the hair seems to be more thicker and denser!

Here's photo of week 20 - the longest hair I've had in years!

----------


## Saltynuts

Heyas fellas.  I hate to be "that guy", but there are a LOT of pages on this thread (246), might someone be able to sum up some dermarollers (size, # of needles), usage patterns, with what medications, etc. that appears to have worked?  I want to try something that has appeared to work for some but just don't have the time to read through all the pages.

FYI, when the BS dermarolling study came out years ago, I hopped on the bandwagon, and was dermarolling HARD.  All I ever got out of it was a bloody scalp, scalp skin that flaked off, and hair coming out with said flakes.  So I want to do something less harsh.  Will report results here.

Thanks!

----------


## Saltynuts

Heyas fellas.  I hate to be "that guy", but there are a LOT of pages on this thread (246), might someone be able to sum up some dermarollers (size, # of needles), usage patterns, with what medications, etc. that appears to have worked?  I want to try something that has appeared to work for some but just don't have the time to read through all the pages.

FYI, when the BS dermarolling study came out years ago, I hopped on the bandwagon, and was dermarolling HARD.  All I ever got out of it was a bloody scalp, scalp skin that flaked off, and hair coming out with said flakes.  So I want to do something less harsh.  Will report results here.

Thanks!

----------


## Jazz1

I am having great results derma rolling with 15% minoxidol,

----------


## BBay

I started with derma rolling too painful and inaccurate. Moved to micro pen with a doctors prescription formulas do at home once every 2-3 weeks 10-15 minutes each time.

----------


## wannamyhairback

6.	September 2013: Added 1.5mm roller, added Keto Shampoo 2 x week away from rolling, added supplement Zinc 18mg, Vit A 10 000iu, Vit B6 20mg .


You do not wash your head with Keto in the same day you roll? why not?

----------


## sch89

What's the best method of cleaning and disinfecting? A roller seems like an awkward thing to clean.

----------


## niceman2007

Hello every body,,and thanx for every one participated this post and shared his experience and experiment here.
Special thanx to prettyfly83 the challenger and persistent man,and muii and vic , 
I nearly read all the 247 pages carefully not to miss any thing,and im will share my experience with you and i am sure that it will benifit you if you applied it beside dermaroller and menox,i will tell you every thing about what i did and the results and i will add derma roller to my rigeme and put the results Consecutively.i started my special rigeme 2 monthes ago by using plenty oil mixture and i got good results so i will use derma roller and continue with you soon,wait me,  thanx

----------


## cardib

alcohol and flame

----------


## Kilopster

Hi, I am 36 years old male and going for HT in March, my Dr in London just confirmed me he uses Chilled Saline solution to store harvested grafts while he is doing the incision. Please can you advise how effective is the saline solution for this purpose? Is there a huge difference in yield when compared saline with other solutions to store the grafts?

Last thing, is it better to spray ATP after the HT? this see lot of doctors on different forms suggesting that, but by doctor do not provide ATP after HT.

----------


## hresults

Hey Miiw!

Thank you so much for sharing your success with your current treatment.

I would just like to know your reasoning for using 0,3mm roller on everyother day (Or was it twice a week?) 

and u used a 1mm 540 needle derma roller instead of  a 1,5mm 192 needle roller as in the study.

Any particular reason why?

----------


## justthinning

> 3 Year Update, ~6 months since last progress pics


 I would love it if you posted an update in May 2017, just to really prove fred970 wrong!

Keep up the awesome work!

----------


## PaulAnds

I will start dermarolling this week. Seems to work fine for some. Is your scalp red after rolling? If so, how long is it red?

----------


## justthinning

> I will start dermarolling this week. Seems to work fine for some. Is your scalp red after rolling? If so, how long is it red?


 Assuming you are talking to me, then I can't answer, because I have not even started microneedling yet.

I'm still waiting for my stuff to arrive, that is, Minoxidil and the dermapen. I will try to let you know how things are going, when I actually do begin to microneedle. Can't wait to start, and can't wait to see how things goes in six to twelve months time.

Six to twelve months is long, but looking at how long it took PrettyFly86 to go from a slick NW5a/NW6 to having some hair, I'm not going to hold my breath. But I am still pretty optimistic about potential results in 12 months time.

----------


## HMDWN

> Assuming you are talking to me, then I can't answer, because I have not even started microneedling yet.
> 
> I'm still waiting for my stuff to arrive, that is, Minoxidil and the dermapen. I will try to let you know how things are going, when I actually do begin to microneedle. Can't wait to start, and can't wait to see how things goes in six to twelve months time.
> 
> Six to twelve months is long, but looking at how long it took PrettyFly86 to go from a slick NW5a/NW6 to having some hair, I'm not going to hold my breath. But I am still pretty optimistic about potential results in 12 months time.


 By applying the Derma Pan yourself (assuming you are) do you feel you will be able to apply it properly to get uniform coverage? The Roller can be done almost being blindfolded.

----------


## justthinning

> By applying the Derma Pan yourself (assuming you are) do you feel you will be able to apply it properly to get uniform coverage? The Roller can be done almost being blindfolded.


 I certainly hope I would get uniform coverage.

I am also anxious about starting microneedling using a dermapen. Dermarolling has been shown to work quite well, in two published studies. Where as, there does not seem to be any data regarding dermapen being applied to bald/balding scalp. So, pragmatically, if I really did want my hair back, I should settle for something tried and tested, therefore I should be using a dermaroller instead of a dermapen.

However, it is believed that the reason why dermarolling works is because it damages the skin just enough for the wounding mechanism to promote hair growth (such as Wnt signaling to promote hair growth, the synthesis of pge2, etc.). But because this is a hypothesis, falsification is needed, and the only way to falsify is to actually experiment.

As an added bonus, I'll experiment without the use of Minoxidil, so that we can confirm it's indeed wounding+minoxidil that is doing the hard work, and not just wounding.

So I'll act as the guinea pig so that none of you would have to waste time. However, as a guy with thinning hair, I really hope the hypothesis is correct; I want my hair back after all, especially in a low-pain/pain-free manner. A dermapen is believed to be less painful than a dermaroller.

----------


## justthinning

Turns out, dermapen is still somewhat painful, but I didn't get any bleeding.

----------


## justthinning

> I started with derma rolling too painful and inaccurate. Moved to micro pen with a doctors prescription formulas do at home once every 2-3 weeks 10-15 minutes each time.


 What's the doctor's prescription formula?

----------


## justthinning

> 3- i am not going to use finasteride or other chemicals , do you think will be a decent try? or i must combine it with some medicines?
> he has 2 formulas one with nutrients and vitamins that you rub in once you micro needle and the second is pharmceutical you need doc prescription to to get it


 You've mentioned it here, too. What's this pharmaceutical that they give you? What does it say in the label?

----------


## Annon36

how are guys, who had some good results, doing?

----------


## marklin

Miiw, Do you use iodine solution, Betadine, to sterile your scalp before dermarolling?  There are two other user, state that the Betadine may help too.  Just wonder if you did apply Betadine or not?  Thanks.

----------


## Jazz1

I just use any disinfectant after use.

----------


## tomjones1

Hi Elvis I've been waiting for some feedback on how the dermarolling with minox once per week is going?  I really have a difficult time with both minox and fin sides so I'm really intrigued by minox once per week. Thanks



> ok thanks guys, 
> 
> today i will start minoxidil spray + dermaroller 1mm once a week. (next week i will add also the 0.25mm dermaroller 2x a week, so total 3x dermarolled x week 1mm x1 0.25mm x2)
> 
> i will use minoxidil also once a week. 24 hours after the derma rolling.
> 
> i have a question , how do you clean the dermaroller ? and how often you clean it? 
> 
> thank you.

----------


## tomjones1

@justthinning: how is your micro needling without minox going?  Notice anything?

----------


## elvispresley

hi tomjones until now nothing  improved ... it will be nice to see how Miiw  is going

----------


## tomjones1

Elvis can you tell me your specific regenin?  Are you still using minox once per week?

----------


## markusbdc

Hey Justthinning - I noticed you started dermarolling back in February or thereabouts...Here its August..Are you getting any new growth with your dermarolling only experiment? Thanks in advance....

----------


## tomjones1

Justthinning: we are hoping for an update man.

----------


## elvispresley

> Elvis can you tell me your specific regenin?  Are you still using minox once per week?


 minox once per week 
dermaroll 1mm once per week

----------


## tomjones1

@elvispressley: so your not seeing any results with minox once per week and rolling once per week?

----------


## tomjones1

@elvispressley: so your not seeing any results with minox once per week and rolling once per week? Thanks

----------


## markusbdc

> minox once per week 
> dermaroll 1mm once per week


 Can you really expect any results with minox at only once per week? Any positive effect you get would seem to have to be attributable to the dermarolling I would think....?

----------


## Spearming

Hi, i have bought kirksland minox like 20 days ago and i have just gotten my dermaroller.. I use minoxidil on my head and my breard 2 times a day.. I use somewhat 0.8ml on head and 0.4 ml on beard so it summes it up on 1.2 ml per use. 
What i would pike yo know is: when to use the derma roller? How many times? And when after that? Like should it be used each day, every week, every month?! 

Thank you im advance

----------


## JohnMPB

> ha ha ....
> 
> yes thats me at the start, think 3 or 6 months in


 Hey prettfly,
I know you don't post much but could you please update us?

Also, do u experience any scalp itching/redness/flaking/inflammation and do u use anything for it besides nizoral? 

Thanks

----------


## elvispresley

> Can you really expect any results with minox at only once per week? Any positive effect you get would seem to have to be attributable to the dermarolling I would think....?


 sorry guys no positive and relevant effects. Experiment failed after 6 months.

----------


## JohnMPB

> Hey guys!
> 
> Sorry that I haven't posted anything for a while! Been busy at work! 
> 
> Also I had some major shedding around week 15, I'd like to contribute that to Saw Palmetto, since I hit the 3 month mark with it, just when I started shedding.
> After the shed, the hair seems to be more thicker and denser!
> 
> Here's photo of week 20 - the longest hair I've had in years!


 Hi, any update?

----------


## Vlaj

> Heyas fellas.  I hate to be "that guy", but there are a LOT of pages on this thread (246), might someone be able to sum up some dermarollers (size, # of needles), usage patterns, with what medications, etc. that appears to have worked?  I want to try something that has appeared to work for some but just don't have the time to read through all the pages.
> 
> FYI, when the BS dermarolling study came out years ago, I hopped on the bandwagon, and was dermarolling HARD.  All I ever got out of it was a bloody scalp, scalp skin that flaked off, and hair coming out with said flakes.  So I want to do something less harsh.  Will report results here.
> 
> Thanks!


 Hi. What were your results?

----------


## garry91

> Hello every body,,and thanx for every one participated this post and shared his experience and experiment here.
> Special thanx to prettyfly83 the challenger and persistent man,and muii and vic , 
> I nearly read all the 247 pages carefully not to miss any thing,and im will share my experience with you and i am sure that it will benifit you if you applied it beside dermaroller and menox,i will tell you every thing about what i did and the results and i will add derma roller to my rigeme and put the results Consecutively.i started my special rigeme 2 monthes ago by using plenty oil mixture and i got good results so i will use derma roller and continue with you soon,wait me,  thanx


 So what results did you get?
What did you use to clean scalp+dermaroller before dermarolling and after dermarolling?

----------


## hairlost29

Hello,
I'm 34 now. My current crown and vertex part is shown in the pics attached. I have been using minoxidle 5% since 6 years to maintain my hair (crown and vertex). It was much thicker when I started using minoxidle however as aging my current hair is thinning. Also I have stopped using hair oil almost 20 years back and recently started using Bringraj oil since 2 months and didn't see much improvement. 

What are the options that I can get much thicker hair in the crown and vertex part? Please advice. Appreciate your response.

----------


## hairlost29

Hello,
I'm 34 now. My current crown and vertex part is shown in the pics attached. I have been using minoxidle 5% since 6 years to maintain my hair (crown and vertex). It was much thicker when I started using minoxidle however as aging my current hair is thinning. Also I have stopped using hair oil almost 20 years back and recently started using Bringraj oil since 2 months and didn't see much improvement. 

What are the options that I can get much thicker hair in the crown and vertex part? Please advice. Appreciate your response.

----------


## simonspaak

Hi all,

I have been trying this approach with Minoxidil and I can say with pretty nice results.
I don't recommend any specific brand but the method itself described in my blog:

----------


## tiredbancini

Was there every a summary of the trial published anywhere ?

----------


## Blindmusk1

I would like to participate in this trial, if possible.

----------


## elvispresley

@hairloss29
i had similar situation of you.
i tried dermarolling in the crown for 6 months with ZERO RESULTS.
you should try it in combo with minoxidil for 6 months and see if you are lucky or not. IMHO

----------


## Reed

Hi all

Have passed many months since many members have tried roller and now i think there is a comclusion how is better to use a roller. 

It is better to use 1,5mm or 0,5? After the roller to use minox or something else or not?

But who can read 250 pages for this subject?

So all the new members dont have to search about it in those 250 what it is better.

Can an admin to make a sticky what is better for it?Unless if roller dont worth to use it.

----------


## HMDWN

I just don't see how damaging ones skin will have any affect on stimulating hair to grow, period. 
Reason...the problem is in our blood. Unless the DHT is removed those that are genetically programmed to lose their hair will continue to do so...wounding your scalp doesn't remove the DHT, it's still present.

----------


## Reed

> I just don't see how damaging ones skin will have any affect on stimulating hair to grow, period. 
> Reason...the problem is in our blood. Unless the DHT is removed those that are genetically programmed to lose their hair will continue to do so...wounding your scalp doesn't remove the DHT, it's still present.


 Roller helps to absorb the lotion. Only roller cant see something, i think. I have seen at the past rarely occasions they had regrow but ignore it , now i am desperate.

So at those 250 pages they users say roller is useless?

----------


## HMDWN

> Roller helps to absorb the lotion. Only roller cant see something, i think. I have seen at the past rarely occasions they had regrow but ignore it , now i am desperate.
> 
> So at those 250 pages they users say roller is useless?


  I believe we are all "desperate" and willing to try anything to reverse this nightmare. 
I'm coming up on 61 years of age, had a massive thick head of hair especially during the big-hair band days and decades after.
For the past few years I have been under a ton of stress dealing with my 90 year old father and his care.
I have noticed thinning but never really shed when brushing or showering.
I can see my scalp through my hair in sunlight. I have been feeling more and more of the horseshoe pattern when shampooing and can really notice it when coming out if the shower.
From the crown to the front Vellus hairs are taking over...nobody wants a cure more then I do but, I just don't think wounding ones flesh is a way to go about it.
Potential cures are always 5-10 years away, been that way for decades.
At 60 years old I'm lucky to have what I have...but I sure get envious when visiting my father in his nursing home and seeing an 80 year old resident with a thick full head of hair.

----------


## Jazz1

I have done derma rolling and to this date I still derma roll. Derma rolling will not remove DHT but it can stimulate growth 100% my whole forehead is full of new vellus hairs.

I use 1mm needle every other day, I do not wound my scalp until I bleed on 1mm! I simply derma roll on the whole scalp with gentle form pressure. I then apply my 5% regaine foam, never apply anything higher after derma rolling! As I also use 15% minoxidil from Murray Avenue.

The 1.5mm needle I use once a week for wounding. This method 100% works and will give good results, on the basis you have stopped or halted the Hairloss in its track.

----------


## gibbsy09

Hi I would like to chime in if it's OK?

I'm 47 and over the years I've experimented with different methods I used minoxidil and I think it may slowed down my hairloss at the time I think,I  was 30 at the time I used it for a few months then stopped the reason I stopped is because I was using the legit regain from boots chemist but it was just too expensive and I didn't know about the cheaper altenatives  at the time.

When I was around 40 I knew about the Kirkland brand and started using it and I don't know if it was working so I just stopped again I've tried onion juice as well lol I done that for maybe three months and I stinked lol don't know if it did anything but my hairloss never got any worse so who knows what I would say is I would not knock any natural remedies until you try them for yourself.

I knew about wounding the scalp and read about it but I never really committed to it until a few months ago I tried derma rolling with a 0.5 roller I done that a couple of times and during that time I decided to swat back up again on the procedure of derma rolling and I found a website called hairloss revolution they had a product there called the scalp elixir I bought it to try it it has all natural ingredients peppermint oil, magnesium oil, olive leaf extract, nettle root tincture, Rosemary oil,saw palmetto tincture, red reishi tincture,taurine, caffeine.

I know people will say that this is all crap but I wanted to keep it natural and I have my reasons I then got a derma pen from the same website it is adjustable all the way up to 3mm the reason for using the pen is I felt that the Derma roller snagged the hair a little bit again that was my reason for changing and my hair isn't thick it is fine and obviously thinning and balding lol.

So now I have some questions because derma rolling, stamping is quite contradicting and I don't mean the study I mean opinions on forums because some say it is wounding and you have to spot bleed a little and others say bleeding is damaging to the follicle example this thread is against bleeding so what is the correct way bleed or not it is all quite confusing.

Anyway I finally plucked up the courage to use the  stamp the other day that I bought months ago lol and my scalp bled  I was pressing jabbing quite hard because I was going with the premise that bleeding spotting was better for the regenerative process to work Eg collagen production.

Some questions.

1)will you bleed anyway regardless of the pressure you use because the needles are 1mm and you are piercing the skin.

2) I also read somewhere I can't remember that using minoxidil afterwards is useless it doesn't work it should be applied 24hours after wounding I think it said that in the study but I could be wrong I'm not using minoxidil the now anyway but I thought I'd ask.
Thanks.

----------


## gibbsy09

God is nobody following this thread.

----------


## Reed

> God is nobody following this thread.


 I am wondering same thing.

I cant read so many pages, should be a sticky with intructions what it is better to do.

----------


## asianvolume13

wanted to try this derma rolling anyone can share instructions ? I have not done this ever or knwo anything about it at all~

----------


## terrybear

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918341/?log$=activity

'A minimum of six weeks is recommended between two treatments as it takes that long for new natural collagen to form'

I think weekly with a 1.5 needle is not going to help lol

----------


## Jma226

So I am only seeing results from one person in this thread. As exciting of results I have seen, is there anyone else who has good progress in before and after pictures using a derma roller?

----------


## Jma226

Are there any concerns or risks regarding sweating from exercise or getting haircuts the day after derma rolling?

Just completed my first treatment yesterday evening and wanna workout today and get a haircut later this week.

Thanks for the info!

----------


## mattinky

Hi all, I am new here. I started using a 1.5mm roller along with rogaine foam about a month ago before I knew this site existed. I am starting to see some promising results. Has everyone here given up on this procedure? Any success?

----------


## Jma226

What results are you noticing after 4 weeks?

----------


## mattinky

I have been using the 1.5 roller once a week. I use rogaine foam in morning and evening. I apply moderate pressure and usually have lots of pin size blood spots and red scalp. The downside is my scalp is very dry and uncomfortable while rolling. I am seeing new hair growth in crown area and on top of scalp, nothing in temple areas yet. I am curious if others are experiencing any luck. I have used rogaine for years with little success other than hopefully slowing down hair loss, the roller with rogaine seems to be causing some results. Like I said this is 4-5 week mark and new hairs are about a 1/8 inch and bald spot on crown getting smaller. I did take some pics alone way and will keep taking every few weeks.

----------


## Jma226

I just started my first treatment earlier this week. I am going between a .3mm and .5mm twice a week (alternating). I will hold off on 1.5mm until i see the results of my current treatment. I heard with the longer needles (above .5mm) there could be risk of scaring, so keep an eye out for that. I am combining my derma roller with hairmetto oils daily, but wait 24 hours after a derma session. I will provide the results i am seeing as i go.

----------


## mattinky

I use the nizoral shampoo a couple of times a week to help offset the extremely dry and itchy scalp. I know most people advise against applying the rogaine right after rolling but I do. I get discouraged from all the fake reviews and videos of people trying to sell products. Just trying to be honest whatever results turn out to be. Will post some pics if anyone interested, even though the pictures seem to get lots of negative responses.

----------


## Jma226

Id like to see the results so far if you dont mind

----------


## mattinky

Before and after. Only been 5 weeks but I can tell difference. Will keep updating.

----------


## Jma226

Holy cow dude, congrats!!

----------


## mattinky

Thanks jma226, I will keep rollering and using rogaine foam and post in a month. I take biotin, and vitamins also. Like I mentioned earlier, been using rogaine for years to maintain hair, wasnt getting any new hair growth. When started rolling and rogaine starting seeing results. Keep us posted on your results.

----------


## Jma226

Yes for sure. I will stick with the process I am trying in the comments above, for the sake of seeing if there are other options that effective (smaller needles and specific oils in place of minoxidil). More of a natural direction.

Thanks for the encouragement! I will keep everyone posted.

----------


## mattinky

My plan is to keep using the rogaine until my hair gets thick enough I am happy with, then looking into natural oils or remedies. So I might ask questions about natural solutions at some point.

----------


## Jma226

Happy to help! We are all in this together. Thinning hair blows....

----------


## mattinky

Hi Teece, I roll once a week with 1.5mm roller. I use rogaine foam in morning and at night each day. I havent noticed any side effects using rogaine after rolling. Do you think rolling helping you at all? Makes my scalp very dry. Does coffee enema help with hair? I have never heard of that before.

----------


## Jma226

How much bleeding do you see using 1.5mm? I have been using .5mm with a bit more force than the weight of my hand. I was bleeding a bit on all areas of my scalp. I use Hairmetto products with my rolling, and i will say my scalp is never dry.

----------


## mattinky

I roll hard enough my scalp is red and some minor bleeding. I think the majority of dryness is from rogaine, I use conditioner and coconut oil but scalp still very dry.

----------


## mattinky

Jma how is your rolling coming along, have you had any good results? Keep up posted.

----------


## Jma226

Hi Mattinky,

Thanks for checking in! I would say so far so good. No new regrowth yet, but I am only almost 4 weeks in with 3 treatments completed. My first week i did .3mm twice with hairmetto oils, then the two following weeks with .5mm once a week still with hairmetto. I noticed a fair amount of bleeding this last time, so I dont see the need to go much deeper right now. I can say my hair is feeling healthier and stronger. Less falling out when i rub the oils or shampoo into my scalp. So thats positive. I always wait 24 hours before using the oils to avoid too much absorption. The oils have vitamins in them, and i dont want too much in my system at once. I actually noticed some symptoms of vitamin over use, so i will do every other day with the oils now. To go over my whole scalp, i guess i am using a fair amount of oil, so i need to be careful with that. I am being patient, as i know normally it can take up to 8 weeks before seeing results. I have seen so many other methods fail that I am trying to stay positive as well. I know its a process, and i am actually yet to see one person not get results, so i dont see why it would start with me.  :Smile:

----------


## mattinky

It is a slow process. Im taking a more aggressive approach with 1.5mm once a week and Rogaine each day. I can tell a difference and will continue to do. I did post a before and after about a month ago. In a few weeks I will update again. Doesnt seem to be much interest in this post anymore, I hope everyone didnt have bad results and give up. This is my last hope to regrow hair. 🤞

----------


## Jma226

I am noticing some dead skin on my used roller...i clean it before and after using with a hot water rinse, than 15 mins in 70% rubbing alcohol. If there is some dead skin, should i worry about infection even when i just soaked it? I cant use my new roller....the condition it came in is ridiculous....looks used, doesnt even roll bc the head isnt straight, and i dont wanna miss my treatment today.

What brand roller do you use?

Thanks for the info!

----------


## mattinky

My scalp is very dry and almost every time I roll the roller collects dry scalp or dandruff like substance. My roller is looking pretty rough after 2 months use so I will be ordering a new one from amazon soon. I use hot water to rinse and alcohol after each use to sterilize. Good luck and keep us posted.

----------


## Jma226

So everything I am seeing indicates 2-3 months of consistancy before you see results. I still have 2 weeks before the two month mark. Were results in the beginning gradual, or did the results start showing all of a sudden (like a large portion of hair started to show at the same time?  I feel like i am seeing new blonde hairs (my hair is brown). Anyway I'm curious. Still feeling very hopeful so far as hair seems stronger.

Thanks

----------


## PAS

For all those people who are following the thread, are there any results or even cases for people who only rolled without minox? Any input is appreciated.

Also what is the acceptable wait time after a transplant to resume rolling ( for 1 and 1.5 mm)?

----------


## mattinky

Here is an update with a few pictures. I think the rolling and rogaine are helping but slow long process. I would love to hear comments and your opinion if you see results in my pictures or if I am just seeing wishful thinking results.

----------


## PAS

Guys anybody got any inputs for dermarolling without minoxidil? And how long should one wait after HT before starting.

----------


## Chestrkwll

Does anyone put any numbing cream on their head before dermarolling?   Using a 1.5 mm tool is extremely painful!  Would numbing cream reduce effectiveness or mess with the process?  There is no mention of numbing cream in the original protocol

----------


## mrclean

> Here is an update with a few pictures. I think the rolling and rogaine are helping but slow long process. I would love to hear comments and your opinion if you see results in my pictures or if I am just seeing wishful thinking results.


 Looks great and only 2 months.

----------


## mrclean

> Does anyone put any numbing cream on their head before dermarolling?   Using a 1.5 mm tool is extremely painful!  Would numbing cream reduce effectiveness or mess with the process?  There is no mention of numbing cream in the original protocol


 I am now using the pen and getting use to the pain.  You don't have to push so hard that it bleeds so maybe lighten up if you are doing that.

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## elvispresley

> I just started my first treatment earlier this week. I am going between a .3mm and .5mm twice a week (alternating). I will hold off on 1.5mm until i see the results of my current treatment. I heard with the longer needles (above .5mm) there could be risk of scaring, so keep an eye out for that. I am combining my derma roller with hairmetto oils daily, but wait 24 hours after a derma session. I will provide the results i am seeing as i go.


 could you please specify where you read about risk of scarring with above 0.5mm?
thanks

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## elvispresley

the pics need to be with same light, lenght of hair, and time after hairwash.
to be comparable.

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## Adnan505

Hair loss is getting common these days. I suggest you ship your curable cream form a genuine supplier. Your cream can be delivered to you from air freight service

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## HairChallenged00

> Here is an update with a few pictures. I think the rolling and rogaine are helping but slow long process. I would love to hear comments and your opinion if you see results in my pictures or if I am just seeing wishful thinking results.


 Any updates?

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