# Men's Hair Loss > Men's Hair Loss: Start Your Own Topic >  Difference between a 'mature hairline' and early MPB?

## jackroylance

Second post on here, the first had pictures of my hairline with me unsure what to define it as and worried for those dreaded early symptoms that I will be destined to lose it!

Most if not all of the feedback I got was that I just had this phenomenom of a mature hairline, Norwood 1.5 (2 at the worst) and no other signs of losing, especially with quite a strong family history of hair.

However, after looking at other people's posts and blogs I was a bit confused as to the difference between a mature hairline and an actual receding hairline? I've seen some photos of hair I thought was struggling and see people say is fine and also some hairlines I thought were good but appear to be receding?!

What is the actual difference?!

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## Aames

A mature hairline IS frontal balding. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that can hold a NW2 into his 40's or 50's like Johnny Depp, but that doesn't change the fact that you almost certainly have MPB. Do not let Tracy or any of these bitter NW3+'s tell you that you don't have it. Treating it early is the best option if you want to maintain it long-term. If you really want to know for certain, go see a doctor that specializes in hair loss and have him look for miniaturization. MPB is like most things in life; if you have to ask, the answer is probably yes.

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## jackroylance

Yeah I see your point there, my concern now is if I have always had this hairline or not as I never paid much attention to it before! I'm 21 and most of my friends have similar shapes to theyre hair so in that case I have no idea what 'normal' or non-MPB hair looks like?

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## Aames

> Yeah I see your point there, my concern now is if I have always had this hairline or not as I never paid much attention to it before! I'm 21 and most of my friends have similar shapes to theyre hair so in that case I have no idea what 'normal' or non-MPB hair looks like?


 Yeah, I know it can be tricky. My advice would be to see a doctor THAT KNOWS ABOUT HAIR LOSS(!!!!) to be sure or, at the very least, go post pics on hairlosshelp or ************. They have a lot more experienced and knowledgeable members IME.

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## burtandernie

Well its all a grey area with some people/doctors arguing a mature hairline is normal for men even though many men dont get one. I would argue its just MPB regardless of where the hair is miniaturizing at and right now when you wait years to see that big bald spot your not getting that hair back anytime soon. 
Its hard to fault people from trying to prevent it given the current state of things, but at the same time propecia is the only option and I think its kind of dangerous.
I would say if your hair loss is minor and slow just live with it maybe snap a few pictures and in a few years there will be much safer better options to keep what you have. If you have severe MPB like family history or its altering your life then think about treatments before it gets bad. Right now its basically just propecia and no one knows how its going to affect you or if something bad happens how to fix it so its a gamble maybe not worth taking you have to decide that.

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## jackroylance

> Well its all a grey area with some people/doctors arguing a mature hairline is normal for men even though many men dont get one. I would argue its just MPB regardless of where the hair is miniaturizing at and right now when you wait years to see that big bald spot your not getting that hair back anytime soon. 
> Its hard to fault people from trying to prevent it given the current state of things, but at the same time propecia is the only option and I think its kind of dangerous.
> I would say if your hair loss is minor and slow just live with it maybe snap a few pictures and in a few years there will be much safer better options to keep what you have. If you have severe MPB like family history or its altering your life then think about treatments before it gets bad. Right now its basically just propecia and no one knows how its going to affect you or if something bad happens how to fix it so its a gamble maybe not worth taking you have to decide that.


 It does seem a massive grey area with my opinion being that a mature hairline is normally a euphemism for hair loss that people use to make them feel okay about the whole thing, kind of like denial? I've uploaded pictures on here before in my last thread about how my hair looks and as I really have no family history of balding (worst case is mothers grandad who is a little thin but didnt start until late 70s) it does seem confusing as to whats going on.

In regards to procepia, it doesnt seem worth the risk and definetly not in my stages of possible MPB. I dont genuinely believe there will ever be an out and out cure to hair loss but as it stands that drug just doesnt seem worth risking messing up your life to 'attempt' to maintain hair for the short term.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Well its all a grey area with some people/doctors arguing a mature hairline is normal for men even though many men dont get one. I would argue its just MPB regardless of where the hair is miniaturizing at and right now when you wait years to see that big bald spot your not getting that hair back anytime soon. 
> Its hard to fault people from trying to prevent it given the current state of things, but at the same time propecia is the only option and I think its kind of dangerous.
> I would say if your hair loss is minor and slow just live with it maybe snap a few pictures and in a few years there will be much safer better options to keep what you have. If you have severe MPB like family history or its altering your life then think about treatments before it gets bad. Right now its basically just propecia and no one knows how its going to affect you or if something bad happens how to fix it so its a gamble maybe not worth taking you have to decide that.


 The mature hairline is MPB, but the philosophy behind it is that you have some hairloss but then it stops for a long time. The trouble is, we have no way in predicting how bad it will become. But chances are, if your recession is minimal, and you are not thinning, you should be able to hold out for histogen, or even kereten retard (which people are trying out) rather then jumping onto fin.

Here is an example - jordan knight:




before:




Temple now:


You can tell that he has lost hair around the temples, because his hairline is now a strong V shape. And in the above picture, he hasnt got any temple points!

My HL is ironically identical to his.

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## jackroylance

See I wouldnt look at that hairstyle and ever think MPB!











Thats what Im dealing with so im really not sure

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## yeahyeahyeah

> See I wouldnt look at that hairstyle and ever think MPB!
> 
> Attachment 19610
> 
> Attachment 19611
> 
> Attachment 19612
> 
> Attachment 19613
> ...


 Your hairline is simlar to his and mine.

You look fine, just keep an eye on it. Or go to a derm to get a professional opionion.

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## mpb47

It's a matter of semantics - 

Tracy is right, the mature hairline is well documented in medical journals going back to at least 1960. I cited Hamliton before..he said something like 94% of white males develop this hairline

To those that say it is the start of mpb, well one journal article gave stats that said that slightly over 85% of men will go on to mpb. So only about 14% stay at the mature level, or never lose any hair at all. That study was for white males I believe.


For me personally: 
I got the mature hairline in my mid/late teens and stayed that way till my mid 30's when my mpb started up.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> It's a matter of semantics - 
> 
> Tracy is right, the mature hairline is well documented in medical journals going back to at least 1960. I cited Hamliton before..he said something like 94&#37; of white males develop this hairline
> 
> To those that say it is the start of mpb, well one journal article gave stats that said that *slightly over 85% of men will go on to mp*b. So only about 14% stay at the mature level, or never lose any hair at all. That study was for white males I believe.
> 
> 
> For me personally: 
> I got the mature hairline in my mid/late teens and stayed that way till my mid 30's when my mpb started up.


 Then telling people they just have a mature hairline, is pointless.

That is more then 2/3rd of men.

Hence, giving them misinformation like that means, they will watch themselves receed.

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## drybone

Jack. 

You do NOT have male pattern baldness. This does not mean you wont develop it but if your hairline stays like that until you are 30 , then you are going to be the lucky small percentage of men who get to enjoy a full head of hair for life  :Smile: 


A mature hairline means the baby hairs fell out at around 19 to 21 . The small minature hairs. But if you start getting the cul de sac 'U' shaped recede at the temples then you have male pattern baldness. Period. 

At that point its just a matter of how slowly the hair folicles burn out. Depends from person to person. 

Hope this helps  :Smile:

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## jackroylance

Thanks Drybone.

It does get really confusing for me about whether or not this hairline is perfectly normal or something to worry about at this time, as if I have any early signs I'd want to do something about it sooner rather than later. How can you tell if it turns into the dreaded 'U' shape though?

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## mpb47

> Then telling people they just have a mature hairline, is pointless.


 Misinformation is telling them that slight recession , a mature hairline, or what ever you wish to call it during/after puberty is not normal.  For white males, it is like 94-99% depending on who stats you believe.

A better approach, would be to tell them that it is in fact normal, but they should monitor periodically to see if it progresses. And tell them that most of the time (~85%)  it will at some point. That could be in the near future, or not for many years. My dad did not get any mpb till right around age 70. And his dad died with a thick head of hair with just a mature hairline like what was posted above (don't know about crown area though so can't say).

I just had the bad luck of getting it from my mothers side, where all the men for the past 3-4 generations have developed the same pattern at the same time. I am developing the same pattern as her brother only meds have slowed it down.


So I think you should be technically accurate, but also honest and tell them that it will most likely go into mpb sooner or later .


I am not trying to be ambiguous- just technically accurate.   Now I am very  ambiguous talking about propecia because I have very mixed feelings about it.

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## baldy1990

.compare yourself with the others at your age,if your haorline look similar to others dont worry

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## drybone

> Thanks Drybone.
> 
> It does get really confusing for me about whether or not this hairline is perfectly normal or something to worry about at this time, as if I have any early signs I'd want to do something about it sooner rather than later. How can you tell if it turns into the dreaded 'U' shape though?


 Your hairline goes straight across. This is good. Looks great  :Smile: 

The middle will stay the same, but the left and right side starts to move backwards. That then is the beginnings of a receding hairline. 

If this happens to you, go to your doctor or dermatologist and ask for their professional opinion. You still may not have male pattern baldness but odds are that you would. You can then arrest its progression with various medications. 

Hope this helps  :Smile:

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## burtandernie

Well realistically by various medications really that could be narrowed down to just propecia since nothing else really works. My problem with propecia is that generally your going to go bald even with it slowly over the years so then your taking all those unknown risks plus the expense. Is it worth it? I am not sure, but I think in CB 03 01 if it comes out could be able to keep your hair for decades so I think a preventative cure is possible shortly. Regrowing vast amounts of hair is another story but I think that will for sure happen in 10 - 20 years.
I think the exact CM measurement of a mature hair line verses MPB is a grey area that different hair doctors would give you slightly different measurements. Just because it was documented a long time ago does not mean its right or accurate. Experts used to think the world was flat and they documented it but newer knowledge lead them to updated opinions.

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## Aames

> Well realistically by various medications really that could be narrowed down to just propecia since nothing else really works. My problem with propecia is that generally your going to go bald even with it slowly over the years so then your taking all those unknown risks plus the expense. Is it worth it? I am not sure, but I think in CB 03 01 if it comes out could be able to keep your hair for decades so I think a preventative cure is possible shortly. Regrowing vast amounts of hair is another story but I think that will for sure happen in 10 - 20 years.
> I think the exact CM measurement of a mature hair line verses MPB is a grey area that different hair doctors would give you slightly different measurements. Just because it was documented a long time ago does not mean its right or accurate. Experts used to think the world was flat and they documented it but newer knowledge lead them to updated opinions.


 Pretty sure you can maintain forever with duta and RU. As long as you're a responder, obviously.

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## drybone

> Well realistically by various medications really that could be narrowed down to just propecia since nothing else really works. My problem with propecia is that generally your going to go bald even with it slowly over the years so then your taking all those unknown risks plus the expense. Is it worth it? I am not sure, but I think in CB 03 01 if it comes out could be able to keep your hair for decades so I think a preventative cure is possible shortly. Regrowing vast amounts of hair is another story but I think that will for sure happen in 10 - 20 years.
> I think the exact CM measurement of a mature hair line verses MPB is a grey area that different hair doctors would give you slightly different measurements. Just because it was documented a long time ago does not mean its right or accurate. Experts used to think the world was flat and they documented it but newer knowledge lead them to updated opinions.


 I am 46 years old. I had the same attitude, even after I got my hair transplant. Why bother take FIN if you are just going to lose it eventually ? Might as well get DHT resistant hair put in right? Save all the hassle ? 

One day it might be possible, but I can tell you doctors cannot come close to replacing what you already have in terms of density. Keeping what you have is far easier than transplanting it back. 

So I have gone on FIN. Apparently you lose hair until age 65 due to MPB so I only have to be on it 19 years lol.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## mpb47

> *Stop spreading shit that IS. NOT. TRUE.*
> 
> Have you read *-ANY-* ****ing study on this? No. No you haven't. Because this has been studied for periods of over 10, 15 years and each time it comes back the same - Finasteride retains its effectiveness and the vast majority do not lose further ground.


 Exactly- You never know what treatments will do unless you give them a try and a good years worth at that . This pic was taken this morning. This is 31+ years worth of mpb progression. I had just turned 17 when I was sure something was happening.  Maybe closer to 34 years as a woman (my mothers stylistic) who cut my one day said it was starting at my cowlick right as I was starting puberty.

There were no treatment in the early days, but I went on minox as soon as It went OTC, mostly as a preventive measure. A couple of years later, shortly after turning 36, my crown started to suddenly and rapidly started to thin out. I increased minoxidil usage and later added propecia.

Propecia worked better than I expected. Crown started filling in and hairline came forward. So the stuff really works if you give it a chance. Unfortunately  i got sides about 4 year later and had to stop. I was able to keep 50-60% of what propecia had given me in the back. And front just slowly began to creep back again.

My dilemma  and what is so frustrating to me  is this:
Minox alone is slowing things down but pictures show I am still gradually  progressing. So do I risk propeci again knowing that I will most likely keep my hair for a long time  or stay on minox only knowing I will slowly become horseshoed like my uncle/grandfather whose pattern I follow very closely?


I know propecia really works (for me anyway)_so it is frustrating trying to decide what to do. Some guys are getting 15 years without progression and I think I would have the same results just scared of getting sides again.


So these guys that don't think propecia works..yes it does,,it just the sides you have to worry about. Not sure what NW I am but hair does look much fuller when dry FWI.

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## drybone

Wow. what a story!! :Smile: 

Thanks for sharing. I have only been on Fin for  a month so I have not seen any side effects. 

have you considered a hair transplant?

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## mpb47

> Wow. what a story!!
> 
> Thanks for sharing. I have only been on Fin for  a month so I have not seen any side effects. 
> 
> have you considered a hair transplant?


 Yes and just recently I mentioned talking to a dr about it in another thread. The problem is (and not the Dr's fault) is they can't predict/stop progression. So you can't have just one and still not go bald later down the line.

Honestly if I could just tolerate Propecia in small amounts I think I would be just fine. So I am experimenting taking very small (.25) very infrequent doses.

Despite many sites saying the mother's side of the family is a myth, my loss is nothing like on my dad's side and exactly like it is on my mom's side. Even my grandma could see it before I did and told me the bad news.  The problem is I am getting pretty close in age (late 40's) as to when my uncle went through a rapid mpb spurt and went from thinning in the back to an outright bald spot and it just kept going from there.

So I am hoping that if/when that starts happening to me, I can use propecia to hold it off.

Good luck with propecia you may never have any issues with it at all.
Someone suggested that I got sides because it worked so well for me.
But I do not believe it is that simple, because there is another guy on ************ that got better results than me and has been on it for 15 years with no problems.  He even mentioned knowing 2 dr's that had been on it for 10 years with no problems. So for some it is never going to be a problem.

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## drybone

You are in the same boat as I am. 

I have my grand dads hairline from my moms side. He slowly thinned on the top but the back was full. Its a NW3 A . 

I went for a hair transplant because of these factors; 

1) my grandad never went bald. He just continued to thin and thin. He ended up like a NW 4A at age 75 when he passed away. 

2) I have researched MPS and most of the indications I get are that the amount of DHT necessary to kill your hair follicles depends on how much testosterone you have to convert. As we get older, we have less testosterone and by age 65 we no longer are producing enough DHT to damage your hair anymore. Not like when we were younger anyways. 

3) So at age 46, knowing I had at worst a  NW4 to work with for life, plus the fact I had only 19 years to go until i can keep the rest, I decided to go for it. 

I did a 1333 HT to rebuild the 1/2 inch frontal hairline . All the grafts went into there. Amazingly , 300 hairs have survived and kept right on growing. Its been 3 1/2 months now and I see some sprouts and some germinating just below the surface. 

I am going to get another 2500 put in next year to fill out the density of my NW 3  and touch up the density of my hairline. 

I am taking finasteride so that I can keep the rest of my hair that I was supposed to lose until age 65. At that age we no longer have MPB but both men and women lose hair due to simply old age  :Frown: 

I hope my story inspires you . You story was awesome.  :Smile:

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## mpb47

> You are in the same boat as I am. 
> 
> I have my grand dads hairline from my moms side. He slowly thinned on the top but the back was full. Its a NW3 A .


 In my case, my pattern is the same as my mom's brother, father, and even grandfather. My grandmother thought it may go back even further than that was  not sure.  When she first told me this, I was not convinced because all I had was a little recession that had not changed in years (I didn't know it at the time but at that point, my late 20's, it was just a mature hairline). She was sure because hairline was becoming "pointy" just like my uncles did. But if it was true, then why did I not have his bald spot? She said it wouldn't start until I was 35-40 and sure enough around 36.5 is when I first discovered
that I had definitely started to thin in the back. I was shocked and also found it rather ironic because that is where my hair has always been the thickest. Probably why I have been able to conceal it for so long though that is getting harder and harder to do.

Not that I needed any more proof but I saw 2 photos of my uncle when he was 38. I was about 2 months away from turning 38 and it was uncanny that our spots were very similar. Instead of developing a round shaped spot, we both had oval shaped spots...think of a racetrack from viewed overhead.





> I went for a hair transplant because of these factors; 
> 
> 1) my grandad never went bald. He just continued to thin and thin. He ended up like a NW 4A at age 75 when he passed away. 
> 
> 2) I have researched MPS and most of the indications I get are that the amount of DHT necessary to kill your hair follicles depends on how much testosterone you have to convert. As we get older, we have less testosterone and by age 65 we no longer are producing enough DHT to damage your hair anymore. Not like when we were younger anyways.


 
Yes it certainly seems to at least slow way down at that point. My uncle seemed to max out around NW6 around 60-65. He is around 72 now and it had not gotten any worse. Funny thing is it actually looks slightly better as his horseshoe doesn't seem to go down as far as it used to. Not that I am going to ask but I have noticed it and wondered if he was on propecia....not for hair as it is too late for that...but for prostate. It is a common problem at that age...as my dad could have cared less about his hair and didn't even begin to bald till about 70. He was put on avodart shortly afterwards and his spot filled in!!!





> 3) So at age 46, knowing I had at worst a  NW4 to work with for life, plus the fact I had only 19 years to go until i can keep the rest, I decided to go for it.


 
Well that is problem #1 for me as I won't have such luck to stay at a 4. I will be a 6 without meds for sure. It will just take a me a long time to get there




> I did a 1333 HT to rebuild the 1/2 inch frontal hairline . All the grafts went into there. Amazingly , 300 hairs have survived and kept right on growing. Its been 3 1/2 months now and I see some sprouts and some germinating just below the surface. 
> 
> I am going to get another 2500 put in next year to fill out the density of my NW 3  and touch up the density of my hairline. 
> 
> I am taking finasteride so that I can keep the rest of my hair that I was supposed to lose until age 65. At that age we no longer have MPB but both men and women lose hair due to simply old age 
> 
> I hope my story inspires you . You story was awesome.


 Hey man that sounds great! You now have a non issue from the sounds of it!

But for me you just hit on #2 why I can't go your route. Docs , esp when dealing with crown, insist on propecia. They say the crown never stops expanding and from all that I have read, I think they are right. So I had to tell the Dr I consulted with that I had used it, it worked great, but after about 4 years i got sides. Well all guarantees are out the door at that point and I completely understand and would be the same way If I was the one doing the work. Doc's love propecia far more than minox. I was just mentioning a freind in another thread. She is not a real dr but more like a Doc jr (not sure of the professional title) . I guess she didn't think I knew about it as she wanted me to get on asap as there was no reason I had to go bald. She kinda lectured me on how it would slowly creep up on me without it. Like I didn't already know that! She never once even mentioned minox only propecia. At that point I was too embarrassed to admit I had already been on it but had to get off of it.

I have a fresh supply in my bathroom closet (and even larger older supply in my bedroom closest). Just too chicken right now to try again, least on a reg basis. Probably what will happen is I will wait. And when it becomes a true bald spot in a few more years, I won't be able to stand it anymore and then get back on it on reg basis (but smaller dose) and just cross my fingers..ah so frustrating!

Good luck but sounds like you are home free for sure!

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## burtandernie

In my mind there is no difference between MPB and hair loss of any kind wherever it happens. If you see 1 miniaturized hair that does not grow back you have MPB/hair loss. How is losing hair not MPB I mean isnt that what it is?

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## Dan26

I noticed many younger guys who lift a lot develop mature hairlines, maybe 'prematurely' so to speak, but do not have MPB.

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## drybone

> In my mind there is no difference between MPB and hair loss of any kind wherever it happens. If you see 1 miniaturized hair that does not grow back you have MPB/hair loss. How is losing hair not MPB I mean isnt that what it is?


 MPB is 'male pattern baldness' which is caused by a hormone called DHT which is converted from testosterone. Women have far lower levels of testosterone so they dont have the DHT kill their hair follicles. 

Men lose their testosterone, starting at age 30. Our levels start to decline until about age 45 we have lost half our testosterone. 

By age 65 our testosterone levels are so low they can no longer convert enough into DHT to kill our remaining hair follicles on the top of our head. Whatever we have left at 65 remains. 

The difference is this. At this age, both men and women are losing hair due to old age. Its not a 'male pattern baldness' issue anymore. In fact, its far more devastating to women who have had hair their whole lives. 

At this point we will lose hair all over, not just on the top but sides and back too due to old age. The keys to maintaining our bodies in general would be exercise, diet , health care and genetics. 

Hope this helps  :Smile:

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## mpb47

> In my mind there is no difference between MPB and hair loss of any kind wherever it happens. If you see 1 miniaturized hair that does not grow back you have MPB/hair loss. How is losing hair not MPB I mean isnt that what it is?


 Well practically speaking you are right. It is a matter of timing in like 85% of the time. In my case I had a hairline like a woman up till about 15. Then it slowly became concave and stayed that way for many many years. Sometime between my late 20's and mid 30's it started to recede again and at the same time my crown started thinning out. So I lost a small amount of hair in my teens then nothing else until aprox. 20 years later.  That amount of time is the difference. For some it could be a much shorter amount of time and for others much longer before you start to develop mpb.

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## drybone

> Well practically speaking you are right. It is a matter of timing in like 85% of the time. In my case I had a hairline like a woman up till about 15. Then it slowly became concave and stayed that way for many many years. Sometime between my late 20's and mid 30's it started to recede again and at the same time my crown started thinning out. So I lost a small amount of hair in my teens then nothing else until aprox. 20 years later.  That amount of time is the difference. For some it could be a much shorter amount of time and for others much longer before you start to develop mpb.


 I know we have talked about this before and I appreciate your thoughts, but I still think you are wrong. 

There is a REASON why we lose our hair. Its the DHT . The rest is simply a matter of which hair falls out in what pattern and how long it takes. 

In your case your temple hair died almost imediately due to dht , but the rest slowly fell out and you didnt notice the thickness decline. 

By time you were in your thirties it finally was so thin as to be seen so you think it just started now? 

If you are right, explain how the DHT stops and starts killing hair? How does that work?

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## mpb47

> I know we have talked about this before and I appreciate your thoughts, but I still think you are wrong. 
> 
> There is a REASON why we lose our hair. Its the DHT . The rest is simply a matter of which hair falls out in what pattern and how long it takes. 
> 
> In your case your temple hair died almost imediately due to dht , but the rest slowly fell out and you didnt notice the thickness decline. 
> 
> By time you were in your thirties it finally was so thin as to be seen so you think it just started now? 
> 
> If you are right, explain how the DHT stops and starts killing hair? How does that work?


 No debate that is is hormones in both cases. As to why it started and stopped, no one really knows for sure. I have read suggested theories that mpb genes have sort of a time clock that tellls when each of your hair follicles are to begin to miniaturize and that is also the reason you lose your hair in pattern rather than all at once.

As to your other question,  I know I did not have hairline miniaturization (ie diffuse thining) until my late 20's or 30s. Before then, my hairline was changed for sure but the hair was thick and normal. Miniaturization is when some hair docs say mpb truly begins.

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## burtandernie

I think when your hair grows the pattern of androgen receptors is kind of unique to you and varies by each individual hair maybe with juvenile hairline the most sensitive to androgens and its pretty common that the very front and temples go first and I think its just those hairs are most sensitive in most men so over time those die first.
I wish there were some studies showing us how hair is sensitive to androgens like show us receptor layouts or explain that because its an important question we are still guessing at it.

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## drybone

> I think when your hair grows the pattern of androgen receptors is kind of unique to you and varies by each individual hair maybe with juvenile hairline the most sensitive to androgens and its pretty common that the very front and temples go first and I think its just those hairs are most sensitive in most men so over time those die first.
> I wish there were some studies showing us how hair is sensitive to androgens like show us receptor layouts or explain that because its an important question we are still guessing at it.


 Agreed. Like a 'map' . I think some hairs cant take it at all, others can resist for a while, others can make it a little further and the sides and back last forever. 

However, the DHT levels that kill them  almost always start between 18-22. Some exceptions apply , some a few years earlier some a few years later.

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## mpb47

> I think when your hair grows the pattern of androgen receptors is kind of unique to you and varies by each individual hair maybe with juvenile hairline the most sensitive to androgens and its pretty common that the very front and temples go first and I think its just those hairs are most sensitive in most men so over time those die first.
> I wish there were some studies showing us how hair is sensitive to androgens like show us receptor layouts or explain that because its an important question we are still guessing at it.


 That is basically how I understand it as well.  Men have a lot of androgen receptors up front and that along with 5-alpha reductase  kills our hairlines.
Women have  a lot of another kind of receptor up front that stops  T from becoming DHT. Instead it becomes E which promotes hair grow instead of killing it.  I am sure it's a lot more complicated than that but it is the basic idea.

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## mpb47

> Agreed. Like a 'map' . I think some hairs cant take it at all, others can resist for a while, others can make it a little further and the sides and back last forever. 
> 
> However, the DHT levels that kill them  almost always start between 18-22. Some exceptions apply , some a few years earlier some a few years later.


  I think that is what is programmed at birth. Mine started probably around 15 or so. Just lucky that it stopped for a long time.

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## drybone

> I think that is what is programmed at birth. Mine started probably around 15 or so. Just lucky that it stopped for a long time.


 We can finally agree !!!!  :Smile: 

While the DHT is constantly attacking our heads, you can have resistant hairs that last for 20 years before they finally give out, thus the 'balding' starts later.

 :Cool:

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## mpb47

> We can finally agree !!!! 
> 
> While the DHT is constantly attacking our heads, you can have resistant hairs that last for 20 years before they finally give out, thus the 'balding' starts later.


 Really don't think we disagreed just matter of semantics.

I am just crossing my fingers for something as good as propecia with no worries of sides. And before time runs out on me. Might be a pipe-dream, but still hoping...

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## drybone

> Really don't think we disagreed just matter of semantics.
> 
> I am just crossing my fingers for something as good as propecia with no worries of sides. And before time runs out on me. Might be a pipe-dream, but still hoping...


 How about this RU stuff ???

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## mpb47

> How about this RU stuff ???


 I don't know how safe it is and after my sides from propecia I am a little gun shy to experiment with unknowns. 10-15 years ago when my mpb was really kicking in hard I probably would have tried most anything.

There is a long thread on hairlosshelp where several guys used anti-androgens and I think even E to see what it would do. One guy was young and had just started losing his temple hair. Well his hairline did come back so it is technical possible to beat the "mature" hairline. But after awhile he got brain fog and I believe muscle loss so he then tapered off. He said just as soon as he would go off he would start to recede again. I am not willing to go that far, though it is interesting to know if you are crazy enough, you can stop it. It also show how damm determined mpb is and how it starts right back up the instant you stop even meds as strong as he was on.

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## drybone

Good points. 

I reached this point as well, and I came to the conclusion that it was a never ending problem so just wait and have a hair transplant, then the MPS wont matter as its fully resistant.  :Smile: 

Thought this way for 20 years until shortly after I had an actual hair transplant  :EEK!: 

Hair transplants are surgery. They are not the easy serene infomercials. Its blood and guts ripping part of your scalp FUT or punching holes in your head FUE surgery. 

And these are the good kinds. Think about how it used to be  :EEK!: 

The density is not going to be as good as our orignal hair, even if we have 2 transplants and dense pack. Even if its good enough, its expensive, a lot of down time due to recovery and unsightly redness ...........if you can just hang onto your original hair, better to do that. 

I hope you find a med that works for you  :Smile:

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## mpb47

> Good points. 
> 
> I reached this point as well, and I came to the conclusion that it was a never ending problem so just wait and have a hair transplant, then the MPS wont matter as its fully resistant. 
> 
> Thought this way for 20 years until shortly after I had an actual hair transplant 
> 
> Hair transplants are surgery. They are not the easy serene infomercials. Its blood and guts ripping part of your scalp FUT or punching holes in your head FUE surgery. 
> 
> And these are the good kinds. Think about how it used to be 
> ...


 Well at least you will never have to worry about that area going to mpb. And since you can take propecia you should be ok. I am about the same age or very close to the same age when my uncle went through a big spurt of mpb and a few years later when he turned 50, he had gone from thinning crown to shiny bald crown. I am waiting to see if it tries to do the same thing to me. If I can get past that, I should be ok for a long time as minox is still doing a pretty good job.  And hopefully new treatments will come out and help all of us.

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## drybone

> Well at least you will never have to worry about that area going to mpb. And since you can take propecia you should be ok. I am about the same age or very close to the same age when my uncle went through a big spurt of mpb and a few years later when he turned 50, he had gone from thinning crown to shiny bald crown. I am waiting to see if it tries to do the same thing to me. If I can get past that, I should be ok for a long time as minox is still doing a pretty good job.  And hopefully new treatments will come out and help all of us.


 Awesome. Good post  :Smile:

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## mpb47

> Awesome. Good post


 A little off the subject, but I would like your opinion on something- or rather tell me I am not crazy  :Smile: 

I take pics every so often to see any positive or negative changes. I have been doing this for well over 10 years when my crown started. 

This morning when I got out of the shower  I noticed something strange so I took pics, not with my normal camera but with my cellphone since it was right there.

I go through shedding cycles because of minox and at times-like a month ago, my crown looked really big. Right now it doesn't look as bad as I guess I am in a regrowth cycle, but it still doesn't explain what I just noticed:

When my hair is wet, like literally right out of the shower, my hairline looks far worse than my crown. Which is not true, it is the complete opposite.
As soon as I towel dry and then blow dry everything flip flops back into reality. 

Anyway I took some photos but late for work will upload tonight and 
you can tell me if you see the same thing I am seeing.

I know it's not this way all the time esp when I am at the bottom of a sheding cycle, but still found it strange between the diff between wet, drying, and dry.

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## BigThinker

Dryness has everything to do with how hair looks.  When my hair is wet, my frontal region looks like Jude Law's dry.  When it's dry, you wouldn't even be able to tell I was thinning at all.

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## drybone

> Dryness has everything to do with how hair looks.  When my hair is wet, my frontal region looks like Jude Law's dry.  When it's dry, you wouldn't even be able to tell I was thinning at all.


 Agreed. I hid behind this concept since I was 30. Then at 38 I started to do volumizers and keep the front at least 5 inches long. 

By 43 I could no longer hide the thinning.  :Frown:

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## jackroylance

Okay this shows my left side which looks worse than the right - are you sure thats normal? Im not convinced.

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## drybone

> A little off the subject, but I would like your opinion on something- or rather tell me I am not crazy 
> 
> I take pics every so often to see any positive or negative changes. I have been doing this for well over 10 years when my crown started. 
> 
> This morning when I got out of the shower  I noticed something strange so I took pics, not with my normal camera but with my cellphone since it was right there.
> 
> I go through shedding cycles because of minox and at times-like a month ago, my crown looked really big. Right now it doesn't look as bad as I guess I am in a regrowth cycle, but it still doesn't explain what I just noticed:
> 
> When my hair is wet, like literally right out of the shower, my hairline looks far worse than my crown. Which is not true, it is the complete opposite.
> ...


 sorry dude didnt see your post. Yeah, pls post ur pix and lets have a look. I know i look like I have less hair when its wet.

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## drybone

> Okay this shows my left side which looks worse than the right - are you sure thats normal? Im not convinced.


 if you are 10 years old or older then its perfectly normal. You got a good hairline.  :Cool:

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## mpb47

> sorry dude didnt see your post. Yeah, pls post ur pix and lets have a look. I know i look like I have less hair when its wet.


 Ok take a look and see if I am crazy or not. To me wet up front looks far worse than crown, even though the opposite is true

First pic is hairline 60 seconds or so out of the shower. Right here it looks pretty bad.

Second pic is of crown 60 seconds or so out of shower. When wet it doesn't look that bad.

Third pic is crown again. It was still wet but drying

Fourth pic is hairline drying basically dry but not yet styled. Once styled it looks like I have even more hair up front.

Five and Six are of crown when dry, but not combed. I was in a hurry and got them too close. Six you can see where it is trying to come down the side a bit. That started about 10 years ago and that is when I went on propecia. It totally fixed that side issue. I have been off of propecia about 6 years now and only recently has it begun to creep down again.

Last photo is crown dry but intentionally uncombed to show crown at it's worse. This is was taken last month with my normal camera. This is what I typically see in the back. Sometimes it looks a bit better,sometimes a bit worse but you get the idea. 

What I am saying is when my hair is wet it makes things look far worse in front than in back, when the reality is the complete opposite. Doesn't make sense. Water seems to distort my true norwood (whatever it is) at least that is how it looks to me.

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## drybone

Wow. How old are you? Mid forties you say? 

You look young. 

Your frontal hairline looks great. Back is a little thin but you can thicken that back up. 

Yeah you do have more hair when dry. I always figured everyone was like this.

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## mpb47

> Wow. How old are you? Mid forties you say? 
> 
> You look young. 
> 
> Your frontal hairline looks great. Back is a little thin but you can thicken that back up. 
> 
> Yeah you do have more hair when dry. I always figured everyone was like this.


 Thanks...pushing 50 actually. I guess what I was saying was that when wet , front looks much worse than back, when it it actually the opposite. When combed and hair  sprayed, front looks normal most days, back not as good but still passable 65% of the time. I posted a pic of my front here last year and you can judge for yourself. Just hoping to to avoid my uncle's curse of  rapid balding when I turn 50.

BTW...the guy on House M.D. I mentioned in the other thread...I went to school with him starting from 8th or 9th grade. In school both he and his older sister had tons of hair (looked almost like twins) and you'd never think in a million years he would have gone totally bald, or even lost any hair for that matter. His sister was an exception to the rule at my '90210; type of school. Very kind to me even though she was/still is very popular/attractive.

So I was curious what your wife thought of his looks/age. He is the same age as me, pushing 50. I don't think he looks his age on that episode of House, despite being near 50 and totally bald. He has other bit roles playing the ringleader during a home invasion and I think he had a small part in a Ben Aflect movie. I know he is doing a new movie now, but don't know much about it.

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## drybone

He is actually noticeably older than we are. He is 53 pushing 54 

*http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0491402/?ref_=tt_cl_t1*

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## mpb47

> He is actually noticeably older than we are. He is 53 pushing 54 
> 
> *http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0491402/?ref_=tt_cl_t1*


 No I did not mean Hugh Laurie. The guy I mean was just in 1 episode of House and it was a small role at that. He plays the drug kingpin. I thought I posted which episode, maybe I didn't .  Ok IMDB says it is Season 6, Episode 10 titled "The Down Low"

He is not a celebrity by any means but still glad he is at least getting some work.

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## drybone

Oh ok. 

btw my wife was devastated.  :Big Grin:

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Wow. How old are you? Mid forties you say? 
> 
> You look young. 
> 
> Your frontal hairline looks great. Back is a little thin but you can thicken that back up. 
> 
> Yeah you do have more hair when dry. I always figured everyone was like this.


 It's because your hair clumps together when it's wet.

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## mpb47

> Oh ok. 
> 
> btw my wife was devastated.


 Well just tell her he is not totally bald, just a little spot in the back !

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## mpb47

> It's because your hair clumps together when it's wet.


 So why does back look almost normal when wet? I don't think I have ever heard anyway say that wet makes their hair look better. Some Docs tell people to wet their hair to see how bad their mpb really is.

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## jackroylance

What sort of signs should you look for regarding crown loss as well? Noticed the other day that at my scalp just to the left hair was a bit thinner and some scalp is visible, even more so when wet?

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## mpb47

> What sort of signs should you look for regarding crown loss as well? Noticed the other day that at my scalp just to the left hair was a bit thinner and some scalp is visible, even more so when wet?


 I don't know if this is always true but it was in my case:

Check the area where your crown spreads in all directions (whirl). That is where I first noticed it getting thinner.

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## jackroylance

> I don't know if this is always true but it was in my case:
> 
> Check the area where your crown spreads in all directions (whirl). That is where I first noticed it getting thinner.


 So anything to be worried about?

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## jackroylance

Heres another one, to me the density isnt as thick on the left hand side of the crown?

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## mpb47

> So anything to be worried about?


 
As far as I can tell you look fine. I was posting old pictures in another thread yesterday and found a few more. This is when mine was first starting. Some people insisted I was not balding, but as you can see from my more recent photo's , I was. Judge for yourself. The first 3are when I first saw it, the 3rd was a couple of years later.


Best advice I can give is to keep taking pictures every few months as that is the only way to be sure. Also it is hard to take consistent pics as one day my crown will look bad and the next pretty good so it is impossible to change in 1 day.

Just take a lot of pictures...I did and it shows how mpb developed on my crown over time.  Good luck!

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## jackroylance

Its very difficult to tell like you said as things like the angle, light and certain style of the hair can differ from each day and even each picture. For example, these are two pictures taken no longer than a week apart and one looks full and thick, the other with the slight development of a crown loss so I dont know which one is telling the truth?!

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## burtandernie

No such thing as mature hairline. Its basically a cop out term invented to help excuse the pretty primitive and ineffective treatments we have so guys dont feel bad losing some hair since really none of our treatments really work that well at the front.

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## mpb47

> Its very difficult to tell like you said as things like the angle, light and certain style of the hair can differ from each day and even each picture. For example, these are two pictures taken no longer than a week apart and one looks full and thick, the other with the slight development of a crown loss so I dont know which one is telling the truth?!


 Well you know what I mean - the way it can change day to day, which is impossible.  But month to month can be real. A month or so ago, my crown looked really bad. ...like it had become a true bald spot. Now more recently it doesn't look nearly as bad and it's no longer hard to conceal it. This is probably due to minox causing shed/regrowth cycles.

Best advice is to keep taking lots of pictures and look at them not day to day but over the course of months.

Also think about what you want to do , if anything about it.

When i noticed it starting, I tried minox for almost 2 years with no luck. But when I added propecia it started reversing about 9 months later.

bottom line..if you chose to use meds, do not procrasticate. I lost a lot of hair in less than 2 years when I noticed it and when I went on propecia.

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## jackroylance

> Well you know what I mean - the way it can change day to day, which is impossible.  But month to month can be real. A month or so ago, my crown looked really bad. ...like it had become a true bald spot. Now more recently it doesn't look nearly as bad and it's no longer hard to conceal it. This is probably due to minox causing shed/regrowth cycles.
> 
> Best advice is to keep taking lots of pictures and look at them not day to day but over the course of months.
> 
> Also think about what you want to do , if anything about it.
> 
> When i noticed it starting, I tried minox for almost 2 years with no luck. But when I added propecia it started reversing about 9 months later.
> 
> bottom line..if you chose to use meds, do not procrasticate. I lost a lot of hair in less than 2 years when I noticed it and when I went on propecia.


 My problem is I would only use meds as a 'last resort' really so would need to know if my hair is showing signs of mpb before I took the plunge and I have no idea how to be sure

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## mpb47

> My problem is I would only use meds as a 'last resort' really so would need to know if my hair is showing signs of mpb before I took the plunge and I have no idea how to be sure


 
Taking pictures- lots of them. That is how you will know for sure.

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## burtandernie

Yeah the hardest thing about MPB is the treatments are all pretty primitive and the whole thing is just a bunch of uncertainty. Will you go bald? How bad will it get? What pattern will happen in? Will propecia stop it? On and on the questions go and most of them have no real answers other then see a derm and most derms dont have much to say other then ask your family history which is not a perfect indicator either.

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## jackroylance

Definitely its the uncertainty that makes everything worse. I think if people almost had 'sell-by dates' when they know it will affect them then that would make the process a lot easier to cope with. Also, family history must be unclear as a solution as mine is pretty good with most family members sporting a full head of hair and none completely bald but I still dont see that as a true indication! 

On another note, does anyone find that cutting your hair shorter, just a bit longer than a buzz cut, actually makes MPB look better? A friend of mine with quite a bad receding hairline did it and now its almost unoticable.

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## mpb47

> Definitely its the uncertainty that makes everything worse. I think if people almost had 'sell-by dates' when they know it will affect them then that would make the process a lot easier to cope with. Also, family history must be unclear as a solution as mine is pretty good with most family members sporting a full head of hair and none completely bald but I still dont see that as a true indication! 
> 
> On another note, does anyone find that cutting your hair shorter, just a bit longer than a buzz cut, actually makes MPB look better? A friend of mine with quite a bad receding hairline did it and now its almost unoticable.


 Finding the correct length can make a big difference in how much hair you appear to have. I used the word appear because if you do it right, you can make it appear that you have much more hair than you really have. You will still have both good and bad days..and on bad days there is not much you can do. But on good days- Well recently I have had 2 different women as work honestly think I had all my hair.

What works for me:

  1: Correct length -  You just have to find it by experimentation by learning to cut your own hair. If it is too short, it is obvious of course. But if it gets too long- you will look like Donald Trump in the front. And if it gets too long around the crown you will get a very fake looking flat spot in the back.

 2: Combing - This will vary depending on where your problem is. Most of my problem in in the rear. If I do a comb over it looks terrible. 
    I have been watching videos by one of the lady hair docs on this board. In one of her videos she mentions the very trick that works for me:
   I do a sorta comb BACK then hit it with hair spray.  Sometimes you must let it dry for about 5 min then do it again for it to look right. But it works as long as you do not let the comb back hair get too long. I thought I invented this trick but she knows about it and must tell her patients about it as well.

 3: Minox - Even if you don't think it is working for your mpb, I honestly find that it keeps my normal hair thicker- just like it was in my teens. It keeps more of it growing at the same time so you have more to work with. Be sure to use hair conditioner for your hair as it will remove the hairspray and minox build up that can leave your hair flat looking.


 It's a pain to do all of this- esp because of the extra work and time involved, but it will work as long as you are not too bald already.

And again, you will have bad days where it will not work but you will still look better most of the time.

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## jackroylance

With regards to the haircut though, as you can see here with my hair shorter I sometimes dont even realise why I'm worried as to me this looks perfectly normal, dont you think? Yet all it takes is a couple stray hairs or a bit of scalp to peak through and Im back to being convinced il be bald by 25. I dont get why its bothering me so much because I am normally really positive and haven't really had any comments on my potential for hair loss before, thats why I keep asking people on here who know the signs better than most people my age.

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## mpb47

> With regards to the haircut though, as you can see here with my hair shorter I sometimes dont even realise why I'm worried as to me this looks perfectly normal, dont you think? Yet all it takes is a couple stray hairs or a bit of scalp to peak through and Im back to being convinced il be bald by 25. I dont get why its bothering me so much because I am normally really positive and haven't really had any comments on my potential for hair loss before, thats why I keep asking people on here who know the signs better than most people my age.


 Yes your hair looks completely normal and I really don't think you have mpb.
But to prove it to yourself and calm your fears, keep taking pictures every 3 months or so. Keep an eye on your crown whirl. If it ever does start in the crown area, that is most likely where you will first see it. As I have already said a friend who worked for a Dr told me that is where it would start and she was correct, at least in my case.

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## jackroylance

Okay I left it awhile and was quite happy and content that I wasnt balding. However today, after a lost bet, I let my friend cut my hair. He didnt do a bad job and I was happy with it only he made a comment regarding hair loss around the crown which hit me like a ton of bricks. So I went upstairs and took pictures and before and after a shower, surprisingly the thicker one is with wet hair but is this getting worse or just him taking the mick and me worrying again?

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## burtandernie

Your pictures look fine dont worry about it. Take the pictures and forget about it now. On the positive if you start balding 5 years from now you will probably be able to safely stop it then so I think MPB is going to be a lot smaller an issue years from now its just right now there are few options.

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## ryan555

Dude, you are not going bald.  Calm down and stop obsessing.

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## jackroylance

Okay I get where you're all coming from and will try to put it out of my mind. I'm just not sure then what signs to look for if mpb does start as I thought I was showing the signs with these pictures?

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