# Men's Hair Loss > Introduce Yourself & Share Your Story >  For Tracy

## mpb47

Since they never believe you and want to give you a hard time about it, I figured I would post this link that I stumbled on tonight. This appears to be written by MD's FWIW. 

"Adolescent boys notice some receding near the temples as their hairlines change from the straight-across boys' pattern to the more "M-shaped" pattern of adult men. This normal development does not mean they are losing hair."

http://www.medicinenet.com/hair_loss...m#androgenetic

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## Tracy C

Thank you.  I know there are some posters here who are still not going to accept it but we do what we can for as many as we can.

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## mpb47

Well I am glad you are telling it like it is so these younger guys won't freq out and think they will be cue balls in 5 years or so. When that happened to me I was scared so I know where they are coming from. But I posted a recent pic of what I look like with dry hair so even 30 years later I still have a decent head of hair- enough to fool some of the women at work at least  :Smile: 

Hopefully some of these younger guys will do some reading and educate themselves that not everyone goes bald in 5 or 10 years and some recession is normal.

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## UK_

> Mmm, *it's been a while since I've read so much denial in one place*.


 If you think this is bad you might wanna check out:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t834499/

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Since they never believe you and want to give you a hard time about it, I figured I would post this link that I stumbled on tonight. This appears to be written by MD's FWIW. 
> 
> "Adolescent boys notice some receding near the temples as their hairlines change from the straight-across boys' pattern to the more "M-shaped" pattern of adult men. This normal development does not mean they are losing hair."
> 
> http://www.medicinenet.com/hair_loss...m#androgenetic


 Then why do some guys NOT develop this?

You and Tracy dance around this question so much.

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## mpb47

> Then why do some guys NOT develop this?
> 
> You and Tracy dance around this question so much.


 I don't. The figures I have read in the past said about 95% of males get this. Another one said 99%. What about the other 1%-5%? Not sure. Why do some men fail to get beards? Not sure but most do. 

I don't disagree that it often goes to mpb but even if it does it can be a very slow process. Just don't think it is good to scare guys going through this into thinking they will be bald in a few years. When I was 17 I wish someone would have told me that it was normal and would probably stop on it's own-least for some time.  Would have saved me much worrying.

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## Tracy C

> Then why do some guys NOT develop this?
> 
> You and Tracy dance around this question so much.


 No one has ever danced around that question.  You simply refuse to accept the answer.  No one knows why any more than they know why some people are left handed.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> No one has ever danced around that question.  You simply refuse to accept the answer.  No one knows why any more than they know why some people are left handed.


 Then show me a mature hairline, show me PICTURES.

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## Tracy C

> Then show me a mature hairline, show me PICTURES.


 Why do you keep asking me for that.  I don't keep pictures of this.  There is no reason for me to keep pictures of this, so why would I?  Besides, you have been shown over and over and over again in this forum.  Then you belligerently post pics of men who did not develop an adult male hair line.  You are very belligerent and that got old a long time ago.  You are not even balding.  Just go away.

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## 25 going on 65

If a man doesn't have a rounded hairline like a girl (i.e. if it's squared off), he has a mature hairline.
NW1 isn't juvenile.

Bill Clinton had his juvenile hairline in office (maybe still does, not sure.)
Brad Pitt does not have his.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> If a man doesn't have a rounded hairline like a girl (i.e. if it's squared off), he has a mature hairline.
> NW1 isn't juvenile.
> 
> Bill Clinton had his juvenile hairline in office (maybe still does, not sure.)
> Brad Pitt does not have his.


 Brad Pitt was born with that hairline.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Why do you keep asking me for that.  I don't keep pictures of this.  There is no reason for me to keep pictures of this, so why would I?  Besides, you have been shown over and over and over again in this forum.  Then you belligerently post pics of men who did not develop an adult male hair line. * You are very belligerent* and that got old a long time ago.  You are not even balding.  Just go away.


 Says the girl that falls out with everybody on here.

Look at yourself.

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## WashedOut

> Says the girl that falls out with everybody on here.
> 
> Look at yourself.


 Sounds like you're just pissed you don't have a mature hairline but full blown MPB.

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## Tracy C

> Says the girl that falls out with everybody on here.


 I don't fall out with everyone, just the guys who are being jerks.  Honestly, it does not break my heart if an obvious jerk doesn't like me.

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## lilpauly

juvenile hairline = nw1
mature hairline= nw2

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## 25 going on 65

Brad Pitt's hairline is receded at the corners. When he buzzes his head close you can make it out more easily.
I won't argue whether NW1 is juvenile or mature since the more I look the foggier it is. The chart is just a collection of crude drawings unfortunately. (For NW1 the top-down view looks mature, but the side view not as much.) Would love to see an updated scale to replace Norwood-Hamilton.
Either way if you want to see why the Brad Pitts of the world don't have juvenile hairlines, check out a woman with her hair pulled back. Or go find a prepubescent kid and shave his head. When you get out of jail tell us what you find.

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## mpb47

> Brad Pitt's hairline is receded at the corners. When he buzzes his head close you can make it out more easily.
> I won't argue whether NW1 is juvenile or mature since the more I look the foggier it is. The chart is just a collection of crude drawings unfortunately. (For NW1 the top-down view looks mature, but the side view not as much.) Would love to see an updated scale to replace Norwood-Hamilton.
> Either way if you want to see why the Brad Pitts of the world don't have juvenile hairlines, check out a woman with her hair pulled back. Or go find a prepubescent kid and shave his head. When you get out of jail tell us what you find.


 There is an attempt at a new system, this is the name of the article:

A new classiﬁcation of pattern hair loss
that is universal for men and women:
Basic and speciﬁc (BASP) classiﬁcation

I am not sure if it's free or not , but if you can't get access via pubmed, I may be able to at least post the diagram. It's actually more complex than norwood, but they are trying to account for the patterns that norwood misses. They mention during the FIN trials norwood was modified by adding II V. I think that is for guys like me with more loss in back than front. So they take it from there and are more detailed.


I think you said it pretty good above, but I don't think some of these guys will still believe you because of negative thinking. They are convinced that any little loss they have could not be normal and they are doomed to become beachballs in 5 or so years.
I was the same way when I was 17 but I did not have access to all this information to tell me otherwise  :Smile:

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## UK_

> juvenile hairline = nw1
> mature hairline= nw2


 Depression = NW34567

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## UK_

Brad Pitt is on RU BIM FIN DUT minox and has had several Gho ops.

He also spends 7 hours a day on hair loss forums waiting for Histogen update.

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## Maradona

> Brad Pitt is on RU BIM FIN DUT minox and has had several Gho ops.
> 
> He also spends 7 hours a day on hair loss forums waiting for Histogen update.


 Lolololololol.   :Big Grin:

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## NotBelievingIt

> Brad Pitt is on RU BIM FIN DUT minox and has had several Gho ops.
> 
> He also spends 7 hours a day on hair loss forums waiting for Histogen update.


 you might not be far from the truth.

Him and Cruise both.  Or one or the other.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Brad Pitt's hairline is receded at the corners. When he buzzes his head close you can make it out more easily.
> I won't argue whether NW1 is juvenile or mature since the more I look the foggier it is. The chart is just a collection of crude drawings unfortunately. (For NW1 the top-down view looks mature, but the side view not as much.) Would love to see an updated scale to replace Norwood-Hamilton.
> Either way if you want to see why the Brad Pitts of the world don't have juvenile hairlines, check out a woman with her hair pulled back. Or go find a prepubescent kid and shave his head. When you get out of jail tell us what you find.


 Pitts hair has stayed the same for YEARS

He has no recession

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## yeahyeahyeah

> Sounds like you're just pissed you don't have a mature hairline but full blown MPB.


 Im just pissed that I have lost hair. Mature hairline or not.

And tbh everyone kept on telling me that my hairline is mature (NW2)

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## WashedOut

> Im just pissed that I have lost hair. Mature hairline or not.
> 
> And tbh everyone kept on telling me that my hairline is mature (NW2)


 That's because it all starts out the same. For another guy that is NW2 he will stay there for 40 years but for you it just keeps on going. It's why this whole thing sucks, luckily now you can check for miniaturization beyond the hairline to get a good diagnosis. 

You know if there's one thing I've noticed on this forum it's that everyone seems to have a very personalized view on things. "Propecia doesn't work because it didn't help me" or "mature hairlines don't exist because mine just kept on going". Doesn't anyone stop to think beyond their own lives?

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## 25 going on 65

> Pitts hair has stayed the same for YEARS
> 
> He has no recession


 I'm not saying he has MPB, just that his corners backed up a bit sometime after puberty.

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## yeahyeahyeah

> I'm not saying he has MPB, just that his corners backed up a bit sometime after puberty.


 Have you got pictures to prove this?

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## Tracy C

> Doesn't anyone stop to think beyond their own lives?


 For the most part, no they don't.  Some of these guys have this "all or nothing" attitude about treatments.  What I mean by that is that they feel a treatment does not work if it does not return them to a juvenile hair line, even though those treatments may in fact regrow some hair or at least improve the hair that they still have and/or arrest further loss.  They can't see the forest for the trees and refuse to accept any value in improvement that is less than perfect.

Sadly, I obviously need to point out that the words "some" and "all" do not mean the same thing.  I'm just putting that out there before anybody barks at me.

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## beatinghairloss

> Since they never believe you and want to give you a hard time about it, I figured I would post this link that I stumbled on tonight. This appears to be written by MD's FWIW. 
> 
> "Adolescent boys notice some receding near the temples as their hairlines change from the straight-across boys' pattern to the more "M-shaped" pattern of adult men. This normal development does not mean they are losing hair."
> 
> http://www.medicinenet.com/hair_loss...m#androgenetic


 I do believe that young men experience the loss of that straight across line and that does not mean they are balding. However, this is happening because of an expanding skull and the need for hair to have a blood flow positive environment. Additionally for this site to say that lacking blood flow does not effect hair loss is completely bogus. Not to mention its comment that massaging doesnt help hair loss is a complete lie. If you are diligent and you massage your scalp every day your hair will grow better I am living proof of that. I have a halted my hair loss for over 3 years now with no medication just healthy eating and scalp massages.oh and mildly reduced ejaculation rate.

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## PatientlyWaiting

Oh my lord. You guys are going to waste her name, stop sweating her so damn much.


I <3 you Tracy. You are the e-mother of Bald Truth.

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## 25 going on 65

> Have you got pictures to prove this?


 I don't see childhood pics of him with his corners and hairline exposed, but I can tell you it isn't usual for prepubescent children (besides babies who often have weird hair patterns until later) to have this forehead:

http://eworldcups.com/brad-pitt.html

(Scroll down to the second picture with his hair buzzed short)


Here is Clinton with his juvi hairline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton

(He has a slight widow's peak which shouldn't be confused with a mature hairline; note his corners and the transition between them and his temples)


Here are a couple women with their hairlines exposed:

http://hairstylesjoss.blogspot.com/2...hairstyle.html


Interesting to note: a minority of women have male hairlines. Many (along with many male children) also have "wispier" or finer hair in the corners where men typically lose it after puberty--those hairs sometimes look like they are miniaturizing from MPB, but they almost never fall out in females. (If they did fall out they might form a male hairline.) Here's an example of that:

http://cdn.blogs.sheknows.com/celebs...-hairstyle.jpg

(Notice the quality of hair in her corners compared to where it becomes very thick all over, but this is normal and not pattern hair loss. If you can imagine her hairline with those finer, sparser hairs missing, it would look more like Brad Pitt's)

Edit: Actually you can somewhat see this same phenomenon in the second photo on the hairstylesjoss website)

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## yeahyeahyeah

> I don't see childhood pics of him with his corners and hairline exposed, but I can tell you it isn't usual for prepubescent children (besides babies who often have weird hair patterns until later) to have this forehead:
> 
> http://eworldcups.com/brad-pitt.html
> 
> (Scroll down to the second picture with his hair buzzed short)


 
That tells me nothing.

I know plenty of guys who have slightly higher hairlines from birth, Pitt could be one of them.

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## lilpauly

if any1 wants to restore their hairline start with big 3 then after 6 to 8 months add experimental treatments to your hairline. ru would be a good start. many people restore their hairlines on ru. please look at these pic of some1 ho restored their hairline http://m-hair.sakura.ne.jp/report/RU.html

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## 25 going on 65

> That tells me nothing.
> 
> I know plenty of guys who have slightly higher hairlines from birth, Pitt could be one of them.


 I agree with  some people having naturally high hairlines. It's not the height I was looking at, but the shape. Extremely defined temple points with the corners cut deeply into the hairline (which is straight across and not rounded at the corners), where juvenile hairs fell out, rather than the softer transition that you normally see on children and women.

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## mpb47

> I don't see childhood pics of him with his corners and hairline exposed, but I can tell you it isn't usual for prepubescent children (besides babies who often have weird hair patterns until later) to have this forehead:
> 
> http://eworldcups.com/brad-pitt.html
> 
> (Scroll down to the second picture with his hair buzzed short)
> 
> 
> Here is Clinton with his juvi hairline:
> 
> ...


 And if they take T, they go through the same hair change we do at puberty,only it happens pretty quickly from what I have read.
Many report mpb follows 5-10 years later. Google FTM hairloss if interested.
Also on youtube as well.

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## 25 going on 65

> And if they take T, they go through the same hair change we do at puberty,only it happens pretty quickly from what I have read.
> Many report mpb follows 5-10 years later. Google FTM hairloss if interested.
> Also on youtube as well.


 This happens from taking T only? That's really interesting. I wonder if the same genes are responsible for male and female pattern baldness, but T levels cause the pattern to express itself differently?
btw I read up on your comment about the BASP system of hair loss classification. Very interesting man. And it applies to men and women both.

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## Tracy C

> This happens from taking T only? That's really interesting.


 Keep in mind that the human body converts free testosterone into DHT.  The free testosterone that doesn't get converted into DHT gets converted into estrogen by aromatase enzymes.  This happens in both males and females.  So a F2M who is on cross-sex HRT can possibly make more DHT than a natural born male - because they are also often taking aromatase inhibitors.






> Very bad and very unethical advice.


 This is very bad and very unethical advice.

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## 25 going on 65

> Keep in mind that the human body converts free testosterone into DHT.  The free testosterone that doesn't get converted into DHT gets converted into estrogen by aromatase enzymes.  This happens in both males and females.  So a F2M who is on cross-sex HRT can possibly make more DHT than a natural born male - because they are also often taking aromatase inhibitors.


 And whatever isn't converted to DHT or estrogen just remains as free T?

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## Tracy C

> And whatever isn't converted to DHT or estrogen just remains as free T?


 It doesn't remain in the body.  Most free testosterone gets converted into DHT.  There is typically very little left to be converted into estrogen.  The excess testosterone is flushed from the body like every other excess substance is.

An excellent example of this in action is the fact that using Finasteride raises a man's testosterone levels a little bit.  Contrary to the popular false believe of some of the members here, Finasteride does not lower testosterone - it raises it.  That leaves more free tesosterone to be converted into estrogen or flushed from the body.  These amounts are very small and insignificant in a born male though.  In the case of a F2M person, the amount converted into DHT can be very significant because they are usually flooding their bodies with testosterone and aromatase inhibitors.  The amount of testosterone wasted can also be very significant.

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## NotBelievingIt

Do not confuse (Total) Testosterone and free testosterone.

The total testosterone levels do not change unless you do something to make more (lift heavy weights for example, take injections)

It is free testosterone that is raised because less total is being taken away via 5AR-2.

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## mpb47

> This happens from taking T only? That's really interesting. I wonder if the same genes are responsible for male and female pattern baldness, but T levels cause the pattern to express itself differently?
> btw I read up on your comment about the BASP system of hair loss classification. Very interesting man. And it applies to men and women both.


 Interesting...I never thought of it that way and I really don't know. Most of what I have read over the years has said that mothers have the gene without it being expressed and can pass it on to their children, but who knows for sure. I don't FPB is well understood to be honest.

Yea I am glad they are trying to fix norwood as it missed many of us who don't quite fit.

I have seen another journal article that is tracking mpb in ftm's . I just skimmed it but it basically said the longer on t+older age= higher NW which makes sense.

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