# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  CB-03-01 - new antiandrogenic

## BaldingJugZ

Anyone ever heard of a supposed new anti-androgenic drug called CB-03-01?

I've looked into it and read a few threads on the subject.

Apparently, it is still in the next phase of testing. However, there is a few Chinese labs producing it at a hefty price.

So, was just wondering if anyone has bought it from China and how they went about getting it into a topical solution? (as it's in crystal form)

Any thoughts on it?

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## mlao

At this stage I think it's a bad idea. All those guys on *** and HLH never post a lot of pictures of their success on things like RU58841. Now they are trying to go in on a group buy for CB-03-01 from the same labs that they buy the RU from.
Don't get me wrong I hope it works and they show great results but even Cosmos the company that owns the patent and is doing the clinical trials hasn't released any photo evidence of results. Nor is there an established method on how to use it. I would wait.

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## Kirby_

Update from Cosmo.

http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F...25JAN13_v5.pdf

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## Thinning87

very interesting, this would be a topical application and wouldn't affect the 5 alpha reductase, in that way causing less side effects (correct me if I'm wrong)

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## NotBelievingIt

> very interesting, this would be a topical application and wouldn't affect the 5 alpha reductase, in that way causing less side effects (correct me if I'm wrong)


 Nope, you read that correctly.  What it reads like it does is binds to the androgen receptors in hair follicile where it is applied, thereby basically taking the place of DHT on the hair follicile.

Fin/Dut bind with 5AR and prevent that enzyme from converting T to DHT, hence side effects.  This basically does the same thing, but bypasses the hormone altering.

Who knows what side effects it might have.  Your hair might stop falling out, but it might degrade hair quality if active androgen receptors are decreased, thereby decreasing potential protein uptake....

Something interesting to follow.

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## Thinning87

yeah, or virtually this may be a cure in the sense that if it doesn't have side effects it would pretty much save all the hair or highly slow down MPB. 

I see some people were getting some shipped from China, these people are in very early stages of development so I definitely wouldn't try it!

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## burtandernie

Interesting for all the different timelines people say their projection is early 2015 to be on the market if all goes well. Also for all the talk about vehicles they mention the vehicle they are looking at for the 5&#37; cream.
Nothing is ever certain with this stuff, but I doubt the androgen receptors interact with proteins uptake. They say this chemical gets converted into a natural substance in the blood stream so it seems like sides will be pretty minimal, but again its unpredictable in nature given how complicated this all is.

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## Kiwi

> At this stage I think it's a bad idea. All those guys on *** and HLH never post a lot of pictures of their success on things like RU58841. Now they are trying to go in on a group buy for CB-03-01 from the same labs that they buy the RU from.
> Don't get me wrong I hope it works and they show great results but even Cosmos the company that owns the patent and is doing the clinical trials hasn't released any photo evidence of results. Nor is there an established method on how to use it. I would wait.


 Except people are posting pictures of RU results...

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## Pate

Good find thanks Kirby... I saw that R&D day was coming up, I was hoping they'd release a presentation with it.

New info: they FINALLY named the CB partner - Medicis, now Valeant. Never heard of them, time for some research.  :Big Grin: 

_On the basis of skin permeation test results and of stability test results,
CB-03-01 5% anhydrous solution was selected as the candidate drug
product for the treatment of alopecia._

They have a vehicle for alopecia!!! Excellent news. Anhydrous, which could mean just about anything. 

Interesting that they went with the 5% solution even though their POC study indicated there was no significant difference between the 1% and 5% formulation.

March 2014 target for end of Phase II for acne.

For alopecia, March 2015 is end of POC study. From what I can tell "Proof of Concept" clinical trials encompass Phase I and Phase IIa.

That's a bit disappointing. It will be at least 2017 before CB comes out for alopecia. But at least they have a clear path to commercialisation.

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## burtandernie

Oh I thought since the slides ended at 2015 that is the date it came out. Really not until 2017? Good lord I better go see a derm and get on finasteride or I will never have hair left by then 2017 is a long long time.
If this comes out and is on the shelf next to rogain with minor sides I see this selling a ton and becoming the gold standard. Heck it will answer questions on if stopping T and DHT at the receptor can stop MPB or not and how T affects hair growth for say facial hair or unwanted body hair. It might stop MPB completely forever I mean who really knows.

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## lilpauly

cb-03-01 is easy to get! its the dam vehicle thats the problem. when i bought cb-03-01 from finfighter it was 340 per gram noe we can get for 150 per gram or cheaper. we trying to find the best possible vehicle for cb

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## Knockin on NW4

> cb-03-01 is easy to get! its the dam vehicle thats the problem. when i bought cb-03-01 from finfighter it was 340 per gram noe we can get for 150 per gram or cheaper. we trying to find the best possible vehicle for cb


 And we have PICS of a member who used cb + minox for a whole year, he has had good regrowth using a cream vehicle at 1% . PM lilpauly aka mark if u want to join our community and get in on our Group Buys. We can get CB for $105 per g if we get a large enough order. Everything gets tested. 1 gram will last 100 days @ 1% in a 1ml application. 2% would even be affordable at $105 per gram. We can get any research chem. SABA Gel, vitamin D analogue, RU, ect.  We are even working on getting BNP and CNP, plus a HSC alternative. We have a super organized forum with full text libraries on the latest hairloss advancements (not misleading abstracts and bro science). There are no fees, nor requirements to buy products, just rules and etiquette to keep us sufferers civilized.  PM Lilpauly, you will regret not joining us. :Smile:

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## Troy

> And we have PICS of a member who used cb + minox for a whole year, he has had good regrowth using a cream vehicle at 1% . PM lilpauly aka mark if u want to join our community and get in on our Group Buys. We can get CB for $105 per g if we get a large enough order. Everything gets tested. 1 gram will last 100 days @ 1% in a 1ml application. 2% would even be affordable at $105 per gram. We can get any research chem. SABA Gel, vitamin D analogue, RU, ect.  We are even working on getting BNP and CNP, plus a HSC alternative. We have a super organized forum with full text libraries on the latest hairloss advancements (not misleading abstracts and bro science). There are no fees, nor requirements to buy products, just rules and etiquette to keep us sufferers civilized.  PM Lilpauly, you will regret not joining us.


 Like :Smile: 

This community has made me change the way i see the future of hair loss treatments...everything seems to be closer now...

Together we are stronger...as the community evolves, as more people that really try to be proactive about this "disease" join, more possibilities and more effective treatments we achieve!

This community has given us the possibility to better understand other possible treatments, while also given us the possibility to use some of them in the correct way...

As the community grows more and better treatments will be within our reach...

As knockin said if you are interested in get more knowledge about other treatments or be able to get them...contact someone from the community (like lilpauly / marklc2004)

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## clandestine

Knockin; How is PSI fairing for you? Anything notable since the last update?

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## Knockin on NW4

> Knockin; How is PSI fairing for you? Anything notable since the last update?


 My Labpe sponsored trial of preloaded resin PSI is freely discussed @ PHG! anyone who wishes to see my results and discussion,  please join our community. Dont let paranoia prevent you from expanding your hairloss knowledge and resources. Labpe supplied me with free psi. Why would any supplier do this if they were scamming? Most research chems are so expensive, people drop them in 2 months, then give negative feedback. Hairloss is one tough cookie. At PHG we dip that bitch in milk. PM Mark.

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## hellouser

> cb-03-01 is easy to get! its the dam vehicle thats the problem. when i bought cb-03-01 from finfighter it was 340 per gram noe we can get for 150 per gram or cheaper. we trying to find the best possible vehicle for cb


 How long would 1gram last if used once daily at 1ml, more or less like minoxidil?

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## Knockin on NW4

> How long would 1gram last if used once daily at 1ml, more or less like minoxidil?


 Like i said, it depends on the concentration. @ 1% in a 1ml daily app, 1g will last last 100 days. that is 10mg per application.  2% would be 20mg per 1ml app, 5% is 50mg per app. 

This reminds me, for all u guys that miss 10-15% minox. We get minoxidil sulphate powder, then u mix however strong you like! 

We can get anything! even tretinoin for the wrinkles on your forehead from constant hairline mirror gazing! !! Plus other cutting edge anti aging peptides and even SARMs.

PM lilpauly aka Mark

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## Knockin on NW4

We now have detailed logs of 2 users getting positive results with CB! And im not talking about maintnance ... im talking about visually impressive,  asthetically pleasing regrowth! Freakin awesome! Cant wait to get my hands on some! If u guys aren't excited about an available product, that safely blocks nearly all dht from binding to the androgen recepters in your scalp,  doesnt cause gyno or sexual dysfunction,  and can be used topicaly ... then something is wrong with you!

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## hellouser

> We now have detailed logs of 2 users getting positive results with CB! And im not talking about maintnance ... im talking about visually impressive,  asthetically pleasing regrowth! Freakin awesome! Cant wait to get my hands on some! If u guys aren't excited about an available product, that safely blocks nearly all dht from binding to the androgen recepters in your scalp,  doesnt cause gyno or sexual dysfunction,  and can be used topicaly ... then something is wrong with you!


 Can you post the link to the 2 logs? are there any before/after pictures?

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## Knockin on NW4

> Can you post the link to the 2 logs? are there any before/after pictures?


 Of course there are before and after pics!  exclusively at PHG! Personally i wouldn't want to put any of my pics on a public forum,  that opens yourself up to alot of criticism and accusations about an issue that already destroys your self esteem. You would have to defend yourself from haters calling u a fraud or liar. No sufferer wants to deal with that.

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## hellouser

> Of course there are before and after pics!  exclusively at PHG! Personally i wouldn't want to put any of my pics on a public forum,  that opens yourself up to alot of criticism and accusations about an issue that already destroys your self esteem. You would have to defend yourself from haters calling u a fraud or liar. No sufferer wants to deal with that.


 What is PHG?

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## Hairismylife

> We now have detailed logs of 2 users getting positive results with CB! And im not talking about maintnance ... im talking about visually impressive,  asthetically pleasing regrowth! Freakin awesome! Cant wait to get my hands on some! If u guys aren't excited about an available product, that safely blocks nearly all dht from binding to the androgen recepters in your scalp,  doesnt cause gyno or sexual dysfunction,  and can be used topicaly ... then something is wrong with you!


 Knockin...do you mean that a good vehicle has been found?

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## LongWayHome

Knockin - you have to explain youself or I'm going on self destruction and you're all going with me!!

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## The Alchemist

> We now have detailed logs of 2 users getting positive results with CB! And im not talking about maintnance ... im talking about visually impressive,  asthetically pleasing regrowth!!


 So post the photos here if you want people to join your forum.  There is no reason you can't do that.





> Labpe supplied me with free psi. Why would any supplier do this if they were scamming?


 You really need to ask why?  Because they send you free product to get you on the hook.  The spend some money on actual product, send it out as free sample.  Once they have you "believing", ie. coming back for more, they switch you over to bogus sh*t and make a boat load of money selling product that's been cut with filler.

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## greatjob!

> What is PHG?


 x 2

what is this PHG you speak of

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## eqvist

> x 2
> 
> what is this PHG you speak of


 x3  

What´s PHG?

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## Knockin on NW4

[QUOTE=The Alchemist;102487]So post the photos here if you want people to join your forum.  There is no reason you can't do that.

1st, they are not my photos,  

2nd its not my community. I was invited, i love PHG. everyone who joins feels the same way i do. 

3rd We have rules and etiquette that every member follows, i.e. posting exclusive content on other boards.


I'm not going to keep playing defense on here. If you actually research CB, then you know how badass it is on paper. we are just now seeing real world results. Study Study Study, then speak.

Personally, i cant touch 5ar reductase inhibitors.  they flare my psuedo gyno. CB is the safest AA because it metabolizes into cortexelone once aborbed through the dermis. It doesnt prevent the conversion of T into DHT which gives sexual dysfunction to many people. Now you dont have to even risk it. And now its affordable for anyone. Read the new cosmo release, CB is coming to market for acne soon! The AGA product will follow

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## clarence

So what we learned so far is that CB is big news for acne sufferers and those who can't tolerate fin. Not much reason yet to get excited, if you're ok with fin, but looking for stuff that will give you regrowth in the hairline before resorting to surgery.

Oh btw, what is PGH?

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## garethbale

Well I am on fin but I don't think its done a lot.  All my hairloss is at the hairline and temples and I haven't regrown anything.

Maybe CB would help.

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## Cob984

so you already using this stuff then knockin ? if not then why/?

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## youngin

PHG = Pioneering Hair Growth.

..and lilpauly is not PMable, so why do you keep saying to PM him.

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## Knockin on NW4

> so you already using this stuff then knockin ? if not then why/?


 it has been very expensive until now. Our group buy closes in ten days. i will have mine in about 2 - 3 weeks. for a third of the normal price! Most know Im a tight ass with my $!

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## Knockin on NW4

just send lilpauly, me, dan26, or any other PHG member a visitor's message or whatever,  i forgot this board doesnt have pm, sorry for the confusion.  i never get on TBT anymore!


here is part of a study explaining why CB is better than other AAs. We have Full text libraries. Most readers on here are lazy, so here is an excerpt.

In this paper we provided the first evidence that the cortexolone17α-propionate(CB-03-01)is a new chemical entity with local and peripherally selective antiandrogenic activities in animals.CB-03-01derives from the parent cortexolone(11-desoxycortisone),a21-C corticosteroid also known as ReichsteinsSubstanceS, which represents a pivotal intermediate in the pathway of the synthesis of glucocorticoids, and which is usually considered devoid of endocrine function, with the exception of a weak glucocorticoid activity[12]. The importance of this work lies in the fact that cortexolone17α-propionate, considered here, shows unexpected pharmacological properties which cannot be demonstrated for the corresponding parent cortexolone. These properties are also of particular interest if compared to ones of the currently available androgen antagonists. When assayed as topical antiandrogen,CB-03-01 resulted highly effective and, when compared to well known androgen antagonists, it was significantly more active than progesterone, finasteride, and even more potent than the pure antiandrogen flutamide. Since CB03-01resulted active toward TP and its active metabolite DHT, the data here in presented suggest that the steroid is able to antagonize the androgenic effects of both hormones.


Its stronger than fin, without the nasty sides.... Dont be silly, this is good for more than just acne sufferers!

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## clarence

> Its stronger than fin, without the nasty sides.... Dont be silly, this is good for more than just acne sufferers!


 I'm sure many people would also love to try it together with fin... but how much do you think the market version of CB will differ from what you guys are trying (other than in trustability of the supplier)?

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## Knockin on NW4

> I'm sure many people would also love to try it together with fin... but how much do you think the market version of CB will differ from what you guys are trying (other than in trustability of the supplier)?


 the active ingredient will be the same, and tested for purity. only the vehicle when it comes to market may have some variations, and of course a fancy name. different members will trial different vehicles, the crwqm vehicle most used over thw past year actually limit absorbtion, some are trying oleyl alcohol & PG, some dmso & dmi, some a modified cream with better absorbtion, etc.

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## burtandernie

A lot could happen between now and if it all works out, but in theory CB 03 01 should stop unwanted body hair as well. So they are going to get a good acne,unwanted hair, and hair loss product all in 1 with this. If they get this on the shelf next to rogain without needing a prescription I think they would make a fortune.
Im very curious to see its effect on facial hair or body hair to see how it does slowing or stopping that. I wonder how strong an effect it has on testosterone which might answer questions on how important a role does testosterone play besides just the usual DHT stuff?

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## clarence

> the active ingredient will be the same, and tested for purity. only the vehicle when it comes to market may have some variations, and of course a fancy name. different members will trial different vehicles, the crwqm vehicle most used over thw past year actually limit absorbtion, some are trying oleyl alcohol & PG, some dmso & dmi, some a modified cream with better absorbtion, etc.


 Mmm thanks... I'll probably look for future group buys once we've got safer bets on the vehicle, since I'm at the stage of "why get a transplant when there's still so many miniaturized hairs"

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## The Alchemist

> just send lilpauly, me, dan26, or any other PHG member a visitor's message or whatever,  i forgot this board doesnt have pm, sorry for the confusion.  i never get on TBT anymore!
> 
> 
> here is part of a study explaining why CB is better than other AAs. We have Full text libraries. Most readers on here are lazy, so here is an excerpt.
> 
> In this paper we provided the first evidence that the cortexolone17α-propionate(CB-03-01)is a new chemical entity with local and peripherally selective antiandrogenic activities in animals.CB-03-01derives from the parent cortexolone(11-desoxycortisone),a21-C corticosteroid also known as ReichsteinsSubstanceS, which represents a pivotal intermediate in the pathway of the synthesis of glucocorticoids, and which is usually considered devoid of endocrine function, with the exception of a weak glucocorticoid activity[12]. The importance of this work lies in the fact that cortexolone17α-propionate, considered here, shows unexpected pharmacological properties which cannot be demonstrated for the corresponding parent cortexolone. These properties are also of particular interest if compared to ones of the currently available androgen antagonists. When assayed as topical antiandrogen,CB-03-01 resulted highly effective and, when compared to well known androgen antagonists, it was significantly more active than progesterone, finasteride, and even more potent than the pure antiandrogen flutamide. Since CB03-01resulted active toward TP and its active metabolite DHT, the data here in presented suggest that the steroid is able to antagonize the androgenic effects of both hormones.
> 
> 
> Its stronger than fin, without the nasty sides.... Dont be silly, this is good for more than just acne sufferers!


 
CB-03-01 has NEVER been proven to grow a single hair or even inhibit hairloss, and that's a fact.  It may theoretically sound better than fin but that's never been proven.  People have been using CB from other sources and haven't shown much of anything for results. And they've been doing it for quite some time.  So take that into consideration.

The guys running the group have every means to rip you off.  They can dilute the product buy cutting it with filler, sell double the amount and pocket the profits.  You'd never know the difference unless you're willing to pay the exorbitant price to have a structural and purity test done on the material you're given.

These guys, despite claims of "having it tested", have no clue what they're being given.  Not a single one of them could interpret an NMR spectra if their life depended on it.  Furthermore, just because a small portion of the bulk is tested, doesn't say sh*t about the quality of the bulk.  The material is coming from a dubious source of unknown integrity or reputation...and this is compounded by the fact that the practice is illegal.  

You should ask yourself why the pictures are being held in private.


Give them your money at your own risk.

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## Knockin on NW4

> CB-03-01 has NEVER been proven to grow a single hair or even inhibit hairloss, and that's a fact.  It may theoretically sound better than fin but that's never been proven.  People have been using CB from other sources and haven't shown much of anything for results. And they've been doing it for quite some time.  So take that into consideration.
> 
> The guys running the group have every means to rip you off.  They can dilute the product buy cutting it with filler, sell double the amount and pocket the profits.  You'd never know the difference unless you're willing to pay the exorbitant price to have a structural and purity test done on the material you're given.
> 
> These guys, despite claims of "having it tested", have no clue what they're being given.  Not a single one of them could interpret an NMR spectra if their life depended on it.  Furthermore, just because a small portion of the bulk is tested, doesn't say sh*t about the quality of the bulk.  The material is coming from a dubious source of unknown integrity or reputation...and this is compounded by the fact that the practice is illegal.  
> 
> You should ask yourself why the pictures are being held in private.
> 
> 
> Give them your money at your own risk.


 
This is almost comical! Mpbtreatments sold a bogus cream to make more money, and it actually impeded aabsorbtion. and they sold cb for nearly 4 times as much as our Group Buys. No one could even afford to use it frequently enough for an extended period of time. 

If u think I personally have something to gain here,  then you are one silly man. 

We got a large enough order already for our discounted price, so we dont need any more members to get the price down. But anyone who still wants to join our pro active hairloss community , just let me know!

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## tdo

> This is almost comical! Mpbtreatments sold a bogus cream to make more money, and it actually impeded aabsorbtion. and they sold cb for nearly 4 times as much as our Group Buys. No one could even afford to use it frequently enough for an extended period of time. 
> 
> If u think I personally have something to gain here,  then you are one silly man. 
> 
> We got a large enough order already for our discounted price, so we dont need any more members to get the price down. But anyone who still wants to join our pro active hairloss community , just let me know!


 Im interested.  How do I join your forum?

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## clandestine

> Im interested.  How do I join your forum?


 Pm littlepauly or Dan26.

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## The Alchemist

> This is almost comical! Mpbtreatments sold a bogus cream to make more money, and it actually impeded aabsorbtion. and they sold cb for nearly 4 times as much as our Group Buys. No one could even afford to use it frequently enough for an extended period of time. 
> 
> If u think I personally have something to gain here,  then you are one silly man. 
> 
> We got a large enough order already for our discounted price, so we dont need any more members to get the price down. But anyone who still wants to join our pro active hairloss community , just let me know!


 
Sure dude, because no ones ever been ripped off on the internet before. We'll just take your word for it  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Good luck to those who put their money in this.

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## Knockin on NW4

> Sure dude, because no ones ever been ripped off on the internet before. We'll just take your word for it 
> 
> Good luck to those who put their money in this.


 what do you suggest we do then? sit around a wait for 5+ years for a miracle cure that may or may not arrive? i started balding around 2004, got on dut right away, got psuedo gyno, tried fin and it did the same. so i ignored it mostly, as everyone assumed by 2010 we would be cured. my hairloss got worse and worse waiting on big pharma to stop f ing us over with hormone manipulation bullcrap. minox doesn't help me but ive been using it for a while now. 

now everyone is saying 2017, but who knows?

 If u can handle fin, (most can) good for you. but its still just a crutch to slow the whole process.

Im tired of waiting, tired of getting screwed by big pharma and the fda. Im only young once, im 28 now and am headed for nw6. Im through sitting around and doing nothing about it

im tired of being bald, good luck doing nothing about it.

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## jjo

[QUOTE=Knockin on NW4;102535]just send lilpauly, me, dan26, or any other PHG member a visitor's message or whatever,  i forgot this board doesnt have pm, sorry for the confusion.  i never get on TBT anymore!


here is part of a study explaining why CB is better than other AAs. We have Full text libraries. Most readers on here are lazy, so here is an excerpt.

In this paper we provided the first evidence that the cortexolone17α-propionate(CB-03-01)is a new chemical entity with local and peripherally selective antiandrogenic activities in animals.CB-03-01derives from the parent cortexolone(11-desoxycortisone),a21-C corticosteroid also known as ReichsteinsSubstanceS, which represents a pivotal intermediate in the pathway of the synthesis of glucocorticoids, and which is usually considered devoid of endocrine function, with the exception of a weak glucocorticoid activity[12]. The importance of this work lies in the fact that cortexolone17α-propionate, considered here, shows unexpected pharmacological properties which cannot be demonstrated for the corresponding parent cortexolone. These properties are also of particular interest if compared to ones of the currently available androgen antagonists. When assayed as topical antiandrogen,CB-03-01 resulted highly effective and, when compared to well known androgen antagonists, it was significantly more active than progesterone, finasteride, and even more potent than the pure antiandrogen flutamide. Since CB03-01resulted active toward TP and its active metabolite DHT, the data here in presented suggest that the steroid is able to antagonize the androgenic effects of both hormones.


This has lots of information for anyone who is a chemist or who can understand it.  
Do you have any study's in English?  Or can you dumb it down a bunch?

Thanks

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## burtandernie

Yeah really I have a lot of hope for this. I think CB 03 01 could be the solution to keeping hair for decades because I think propecia proves we are nearly there its just not strong enough to stop DHT and also testosterone can not be left alone.
You get CB as OTC sitting next to rogain with a good marketing campaign and people will be buying it myself included. Just keep it reasonably priced.
I agree though CB 03 01 has a loong way to go right now its proven to do nothing. Its dangerous to use a chemical from an unknown source. Wait a few years for the real product hopefully.

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## StayThick

I've heard some rumblings about CB but yet to speak to anyone that has actually used it at this point. I would definitely like try this, but there is too many unknown variables at the moment. Like where to buy it, is the source legit, side effects, vehicle to use? 

Unfortunately I'm not a chemist, I wouldn't trust myself mixing potions in my house and applying products from China, but I feel this has a ton of upside yet nobody talks about it.

Anybody trying CB at the moment? Where are you buying it? How are you applying it?? Etc..

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## mpbsucks

> And we have PICS of a member who used cb + minox for a whole year, he has had good regrowth using a cream vehicle at 1% . PM lilpauly aka mark if u want to join our community and get in on our Group Buys. We can get CB for $105 per g if we get a large enough order. Everything gets tested. 1 gram will last 100 days @ 1% in a 1ml application. 2% would even be affordable at $105 per gram. We can get any research chem. SABA Gel, vitamin D analogue, RU, ect.  We are even working on getting BNP and CNP, plus a HSC alternative. We have a super organized forum with full text libraries on the latest hairloss advancements (not misleading abstracts and bro science). There are no fees, nor requirements to buy products, just rules and etiquette to keep us sufferers civilized.  PM Lilpauly, you will regret not joining us.


 hey man, tell me how to join your forum please. I will be a good contributor...

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## unwheel

Does anyone know how cost effective cb is? I'm aware it's more expensive per gram than ru but can we use a lower dose to get the same effect? Perhaps use it every two days instead of every day? Right now I'm using about 1.5ml of 5% ru a day and this would be far too expensive for me at current cb prices, even at group buy prices

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## hellouser

> Does anyone know how cost effective cb is? I'm aware it's more expensive per gram than ru but can we use a lower dose to get the same effect? Perhaps use it every two days instead of every day? Right now I'm using about 1.5ml of 5% ru a day and this would be far too expensive for me at current cb prices, even at group buy prices


 CB is 2-4X as effective as Finasteride. Per 1ml application, you only need 1% mix as even Cosmo's trials showed a very small difference at 5% from 1%.

Comparing it to RU is difficult since its not as thoroughly tested.

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## clandestine

> CB is 2-4X as effective as Finasteride. Per 1ml application, you only need 1% mix as even Cosmo's trials showed a very small difference at 5% from 1%.
> 
> Comparing it to RU is difficult since its not as thoroughly tested.


 Have they found an appropriate vehicle yet? Does Cosmo Cream work? Oleum Alcohol?

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## Cob984

And CB comes with no sides inspite of being so effective? this is just too good to be true, i cant believe cosmo isnt spending every waking minute trying to get a hairloss product out, just doesnt make sense

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## clandestine

> And CB comes with no sides inspite of being so effective? this is just too good to be true, i cant believe cosmo isnt spending every waking minute trying to get a hairloss product out, just doesnt make sense


 Pretty sure t will be released for acne first.

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## hellouser

> Have they found an appropriate vehicle yet? Does Cosmo Cream work? Oleum Alcohol?


 The vehicle they were using was only stated as 'OL/PG'

PG should be pretty obvious as 'polypropylene glycol' but OL could mean oleum (though isnt that an acid???) or Oleyl.

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## hellouser

> And CB comes with no sides inspite of being so effective? this is just too good to be true, i cant believe cosmo isnt spending every waking minute trying to get a hairloss product out, just doesnt make sense


 Its crazy too, I think I read somewhere that their results with CB against acne were mediocre but from what I've seen with CB against hairloss has been ridiculously impressive.

----------


## Cob984

WTF? surely a hair loss breakthrough is more media/news worthy than acne trials? 
this is just flat out illogical

----------


## hellouser

> WTF? surely a hair loss breakthrough is more media/news worthy than acne trials? 
> this is just flat out illogical


 Well, not exactly. We still don't know what the vehicle should be for maximum efficacy and we dont know if it works for everyone as well as it did for Cosmo's own patients.

But, from baseline to 4 weeks of application the follicle count went up from 71 to 109 per cm/2 using only a 1% solution. At 5% the density rose from 73 to 111 grafts per cm/2, so its easy to see that not a lot of CB is needed to get the same results (kind of like finasteride).

So, using the one example, density was *54%* higher. Whats crazy is that this number is ridiculously higher than even Replicel's initial Phase I results using stem cells! How the hell could THAT be?

CB does look very promising though. Combine that with Minox and maybe even with Keratene/Fin and you should have a ridiculous arsenal against hair loss. I'd throw in RU into the mix, maybe using CB on its own but Minox/RU in a single solution and Keratene every 2nd day just to avoid any potential side effects. Of course, Nizoral and some Saw Palmetto based shampoos should help a little as well.

----------


## StayThick

> Well, not exactly. We still don't know what the vehicle should be for maximum efficacy and we dont know if it works for everyone as well as it did for Cosmo's own patients.
> 
> But, from baseline to 4 weeks of application the follicle count went up from 71 to 109 per cm/2 using only a 1% solution. At 5% the density rose from 73 to 111 grafts per cm/2, so its easy to see that not a lot of CB is needed to get the same results (kind of like finasteride).
> 
> So, using the one example, density was *54%* higher. Whats crazy is that this number is ridiculously higher than even Replicel's initial Phase I results using stem cells! How the hell could THAT be?
> 
> CB does look very promising though. Combine that with Minox and maybe even with Keratene/Fin and you should have a ridiculous arsenal against hair loss. I'd throw in RU into the mix, maybe using CB on its own but Minox/RU in a single solution and Keratene every 2nd day just to avoid any potential side effects. Of course, Nizoral and some Saw Palmetto based shampoos should help a little as well.


 Are you using CB personally? If so, through what vehicle and what source are you using to buy it from?

What are your results? I have yet to see anyone on this forum discuss applying this and discussing the results. Anyone? I ask because I'm very interested just clueless on where to buy and how to apply.

----------


## hellouser

> Are you using CB personally? If so, through what vehicle and what source are you using to buy it from?
> 
> What are your results? I have yet to see anyone on this forum discuss applying this and discussing the results. Anyone? I ask because I'm very interested just clueless on where to buy and how to apply.


 You can order CB from Kane. It's pricey though, but at 1% (10mg/1ml) will last you about 100 days if you buy 1gram @ $200.

As for vehicle, nobody knows whats best. I'll be trying a combination of Everclear/PG and Oleyl/PG. Others may be using the Cosmo cream, or something else. Right now its tough to say whats best, because nobody knows! I'll be getting CB sometime soon, probably within the next month.

I'll definitely make updates if I get good progress with it though. Hopefully I do, but my regiment will be:

1X Daily Before Bed (midnight): 1ml of CB at 1% (10mg)
1X Daily at 6pm: 1ml of Minoxidil 5% with 50-100mg of RU mixed in as well
2-4X Weekly: Nizoral
1X Daily: 160mg of Saw Palmetto

I may substitute Saw Palmetto with Keratene if I still don't get results. However, I'm still planning a consultation with Dr. Gho to fix my hairline. Hopefully this route will last me 2+ years without any loss, that way I can go for a procedure with Aderans when available (hopefully next year). This would ultimately cure me but lets remain hopeful! I'm currently about NW3 with thinning (though going through a really bad shed right now after switching to 5% Minox from 2% in December). I'm sure it will all grow back considering its most likely just a Minox shed, I cant see how I could lose so much density in 3 months when its taken me 10 years to get to NW3.

----------


## UK Boy

I'd love to get on CB but I'm sh*t scared of using untested chemical compounds from illegal labs. This is where the system is so crap - the FDA holds eveything up to make sure stuff is 100% but by holding it up so long they drive people to getting the stuff through dodgy foreignlabs. Surely the safest thing is to allow reputable companies going through clinical trials to start selling it after phase I safety trials. There would be no promises as too efficacy but it'd be up to the consumer, at least it'd be safe and the company could use the profits for continuing trials. 

I really don't get why Cosmos are concentrating on acne, there's tonnes of acne treatments. If people are gonna be using 1% for hair does that mean we could use the acne version for hair loss? If so I guess I'll just have ta hold on til that comes.

How comes so many if you feel so safe using untested, illegal chemical compounds. I saw in the other thread Hellouser told someone to "try RU or CB" as if it were totally normal and it was just totally safe OTC stuff that he was talking about.

----------


## burtandernie

If CB is actually a super powerful anti androgen that fights with not just DHT but also T and it has some anti inflammatory properties then it could have big results given the right vehicle. MPB is androgens and inflammation if you stop that your stopping MPB. I think CB has the potential to stop MPB forever if its strong enough and Im not sure that is an exaggeration time will tell though its a long uncertain road.
I do wish it works out for acne though because I wouldnt mind seeing acne and MPB both given much better treatments

----------


## clandestine

> I saw in the other thread Hellouser told someone to "try RU or CB" as if it were totally normal and it was just totally safe OTC stuff that he was talking about.


 For many OTC stuff isn't a viable option.

I am, as I sure some others are, unfathomably androgen sansitive. Fin? Gyno symptoms. Even Saw Pametto Complex larger doses? Gyno. RU anything above 30mg? Gyno. In my case, CB or other grey market chemicals are entirely realistic, enticing and potential viable options.

Others who might not be androgen sensitive, but are trialing these chemicals, have faith in sources and purity. Rather sure purity is tested anyway, in these situations.

Just saying; based on studies performed, a lot of people find fin and dut more dangerous than these grey market chemicals. I suppose your fear stems from elsewhere, though (source of chemical itself, purity, resulting efficacy and safety, etc.).

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

maybe I'm blind but I can't find CB on Kane...can anyone provide a direct link if it is actually on there? 

Only problem with this stuff is it seems even more complicated than RU to make yourself. Heres the directions one guy posted...

You add 1 gram of CB to 24 ml of PG, then add that solution to 75 grams of cream for a 1&#37; formula. A jar contains 100 grams, so 3 jars is the equivalent of 4.



Shake up the CB and PG, until its almost completely dissolved (takes a bit of time, it doesn't dissolve that easily).  Next, heat up the cream using a double boiler method, to 30 degrees celcius. I usually heat up to around 35 c, then remove from the stove, add the PG/CB solution, and whisk it all together. Start mixing slow! You don't want the CB solution to splash everywhere. It will turn nice and thick as it cools. Try to whisk as long as you can (Maybe 10 minutes) so its nice and even. As a final step, as a ML of preservative, most of us were using this stuff called "phenonip" A cheap, powerful preservative.

WTF is a double boiler method lol.

----------


## JJacobs152

Where do we go to get access to PHG?

----------


## StayThick

> maybe I'm blind but I can't find CB on Kane...can anyone provide a direct link if it is actually on there? 
> 
> Only problem with this stuff is it seems even more complicated than RU to make yourself. Heres the directions one guy posted...
> 
> You add 1 gram of CB to 24 ml of PG, then add that solution to 75 grams of cream for a 1% formula. A jar contains 100 grams, so 3 jars is the equivalent of 4.
> 
> 
> 
> Shake up the CB and PG, until its almost completely dissolved (takes a bit of time, it doesn't dissolve that easily).  Next, heat up the cream using a double boiler method, to 30 degrees celcius. I usually heat up to around 35 c, then remove from the stove, add the PG/CB solution, and whisk it all together. Start mixing slow! You don't want the CB solution to splash everywhere. It will turn nice and thick as it cools. Try to whisk as long as you can (Maybe 10 minutes) so its nice and even. As a final step, as a ML of preservative, most of us were using this stuff called "phenonip" A cheap, powerful preservative.
> ...


 
Dude, WTF? I'll go bald before I even attempt to do or master that man is doing. No way I'll go through all that effort for something completely unproven..and I thought I was desperate...WOW

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

Staythick - anything from your PRP injections? I go next week for mine, feeling like I'm about to waste my money.

----------


## StayThick

> Staythick - anything from your PRP injections? I go next week for mine, feeling like I'm about to waste my money.


 Dude I hear you. You feel exactly how I did prior to the treatment. The way I see it there is some science behind it and to ME it was worth a shot. 

I haven't noticed anything since the injections back in early January. To be fair, Dr. Greco advised to wait minimum 4 months before seeing any results. But by looking at my hair now and how it's progressing..I'm not counting on much improvement bro. Being honest man. I come to realize there is a reason why the whole PRP hype died so quick...

----------


## clandestine

> Dude, WTF? I'll go bald before I even attempt to do or master that man is doing. No way I'll go through all that effort for something completely unproven..and I thought I was desperate...WOW


 There are different ways to mix, apply CB depending on vehicle being used. This is one persons experience, with one methodology &vehicle administration.

That said, for a potential 54% density increase, I would do this.

----------


## clandestine

> Where do we go to get access to PHG?


 PM lilpauly.

10doe

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

for a diffuse thinner, is this worth trying over RU? Im not currently on anything and I need to start on either RU or CB, but not sure which is better to try at this point.

What are people thinking is the best vehicle for CB, oleyl and PG? Where does one even get oleyl from?

----------


## JJacobs152

> PM lilpauly.
> 
> 10doe


 1,100 posts later and you're still telling to PM people. The board has disabled private messaging. 

Next alternative?

----------


## Troy

> 1,100 posts later and you're still telling to PM people. The board has disabled private messaging. 
> 
> Next alternative?


 Try the PM over HLH...

Marklc2004 or swissTemples

----------


## JJacobs152

> Try the PM over HLH...
> 
> Marklc2004 or swissTemples


 thanks just sent a pm to marklc2004 on hlh. now waiting for a response. forum there is so complicated to use...have a headache now

----------


## Troy

> thanks just sent a pm to marklc2004 on hlh. now waiting for a response. forum there is so complicated to use...have a headache now


 LOL

Don't forget to say who you are and where you post! Your username has to be verified and approved!

Good luck

----------


## Jens1986

Any neews on this?

----------


## EDB

^ seconded. 

Any new info from the people using

----------


## Pentarou

What I want to know is how/when we can get news from the company that is developing the *real* CB-03-01 for market. Do they ever announce anything?

----------


## yan

02 Aug 2013, Lainate - Half year results - Maybe also some news about CB-03-01
Jan 2014, Lainate - R&D Day - Detailed infos about all their products, also CB-03-01

Product pipeline: http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/.../pipeline.aspx

They plan to file an IND for alopecia in January 14. Proof of Concept studies (Phase 1 + 2a) should be finished around March 15. 

I just want it now!  :Frown:

----------


## burtandernie

I think its definitely jumping the gun to cite a pretty small preliminary study they did already as proof it has no sides and is 2 times as strong as finasteride. It could turn out to be true hopefully, but there is a reason they are studying this for years to come its not just to waste time and money.
Very dangerous to use this at the stage this is at. I realize some men are desperate, but if your not I would wait more.

----------


## clandestine

> I think its definitely jumping the gun to cite a pretty small preliminary study they did already as proof it has no sides and is 2 times as strong as finasteride. It could turn out to be true hopefully, but there is a reason they are studying this for years to come its not just to waste time and money.
> Very dangerous to use this at the stage this is at. I realize some men are desperate, but if your not I would wait more.


 Desperation stems from the inability to use current treatments, as they have proven entirely ineffective, and even harmful.

----------


## Hairismylife

What's the vehicle of CB?

----------


## KO1

> I think its definitely jumping the gun to cite a pretty small preliminary study they did already as proof it has no sides and is 2 times as strong as finasteride. It could turn out to be true hopefully, but there is a reason they are studying this for years to come its not just to waste time and money.
> Very dangerous to use this at the stage this is at. I realize some men are desperate, but if your not I would wait more.


 It's a mistake to say it won't have sides, we need to find out what happens with elevated levels of cortexolone in the body. 

Otherwise you know, Cosmo is just taking advantage of balding mens' insecurities. LMAO.

----------


## tdo

Isnt the hairloss and acne the same formula but just different vehicle?  

Arent they already testing this for acne on humans?  If they are and there arent any adverse effects for acne, I doubt there would be any for hair loss....

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

we need to get this,

----------


## yan

Well they already tested CB 03 01 for acne in a phase 2 european pilot study. No sides reported, so I assume there wont be any (at least systemic) side effects with the alopecia formula as well.

Phase 2 European Pilot study for acne: http://intrepidthera.com/wp-content/...ifu-et-al-.pdf

I`m a bit worried about local side effects, especially if you use it for many years. Per example steroid atrophy and other things...  

They expect to finish US phase 2 acne tests in Q1 2014, so we will "soon" have more info about possible side effects.

----------


## Cory

How strong is CB gonna be, because Histogen didn't provide any great results, Follica, Aderans and Replice are quiet, Tokyo lab is at least decade away, could this formula grow hair on bald scalp?

----------


## yan

It`s at best a stronger fin without systemic side effects. Grow hair on bald scalp? Dont think so... CB only blocks DHT + Test, I guess thats not the "real solution", even though it showed like 50% increase in Follicular density (n°/cm2) in early proof of concept studies...

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...0-10-06_en.pdf

But they applied it twice a week via iontophoresis. No one knows at the moment what results we can expect if used with a topical vehicle.

----------


## Cory

> It`s at best a stronger fin without systemic side effects. Grow hair on bald scalp? Dont think so... CB only blocks DHT + Test, I guess thats not the "real solution", even though it showed like 50% increase in Follicular density (n°/cm2) in early proof of concept studies...
> 
> http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...0-10-06_en.pdf
> 
> But they applied it twice a week via iontophoresis. No one knows at the moment what results we can expect if used with a topical vehicle.


 That's a problem, I am losing hair and in few yrs I might completely have bald scalp, then what, my best hope are guys from Tokyo, but that's decade away and I'll be 38 yrs old, not old but not really young.

I have no hope of promising treatment coming unexpectedly.

----------


## yan

Well if CB is able to keep the hair on your head you have (with some regrow) without major systemic and local side effects, you could easily go for some hair transplants and use CB for years to come until hopefully a final solution arrives (Per example Tokyo guys). 

Let me tell you, I`m in a similar situation like you. I tried fin 1 mg for 5 months, got too much sides, stopped it. But now I realized, if I want to profit from future treatments like CB, I have to + / - maintain what I have now. 

So I started using fin again 2.5 months ago (0.375mg a week!). Apart from a bit lower libido, no side effects (I had strong sides with 1mg after 3-4 weeks). I have no idea if it stops my hair loss completely, but it slows it for sure and it gives me the feeling that I do something against it, so to be honest, I dont care that much about it at the moment. I shave my head to 5mm every two weeks and I look good and feel amazing  :Wink:  I just dont want to be completely bald, NW3-NW4 till CB comes out would be ok for me. I dont need to style my hair, I just shave it short. But between short and nothing is a difference...  :Wink: 

Hair transplants: Even though I take a mini dose fin, I would never ever go for a hair transplant, bcs it would force me to take fin for the rest of my life (if CB and others fail) if I dont want to look like shit with hairs in front and rest gone... That could change with CB per example... 

I need the option to stop fin if other treatments fail. To take even 0.375mg a week for a decade till Tokyo guys got the solution is crazy. I`m not willing to do that. My hope is CB, if they fail, bye bye hairs and bye bye fin.

----------


## KO1

CB is most similar to RU, but with fewer sides. 


In theory. Unless you're sensitive to cortisol.

----------


## clandestine

> CB is most similar to RU, but with fewer sides. 
> 
> 
> In theory. Unless you're sensitive to cortisol.


 Any way to know or test if someone is sensitive to cortisol /corticosteroids?

----------


## FearTheLoss

> CB is most similar to RU, but with fewer sides. 
> 
> 
> In theory. Unless you're sensitive to cortisol.


 CB also has anti-inflammatory properties...in theory it should be better than anything on the market because it works multiple angles.

----------


## KO1

^Ah...high levels of cortisol cause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushing&#37;27s_syndrome

If you're sensitive to cortisol, well then...

----------


## clandestine

> Any way to know or test if someone is sensitive to cortisol /corticosteroids?


 KO;

----------


## KO1

No idea, sorry.

----------


## Desmond84

> Any way to know or test if someone is sensitive to cortisol /corticosteroids?


 Hey Clan  :Smile: 

Ppl are generally not sensitive to steroids as it is used for skin sensitivity! However, prolonged use on a daily basis may cause skin atrophy (thinning of the epidermal layer) meaning your skin may break very easily when scratching etc.

CB-03-01 is a ONCE WEEKLY formulation, which may not have such detrimental effects on the skin but then again we don't know! For those lucky ones that tolerate Finasteride, they may be able to switch between fin & CB on a monthly basis to allow the epidermal layer to return to its original density. If you don't tolerate fin (and I know you don't brother) an option would be to apply it ONCE WEEKLY for 3 weeks then allow a ONE WEEK CB-free period before starting this routine again!

That's how we treat kids with severe eczema! 7-10 day drug holiday generally allows their skin to go back to normal.

----------


## Hairismylife

> Hey Clan 
> 
> Ppl are generally not sensitive to steroids as it is used for skin sensitivity! However, prolonged use on a daily basis may cause skin atrophy (thinning of the epidermal layer) meaning your skin may break very easily when scratching etc.
> 
> CB-03-01 is a ONCE WEEKLY formulation, which may not have such detrimental effects on the skin but then again we don't know! For those lucky ones that tolerate Finasteride, they may be able to switch between fin & CB on a monthly basis to allow the epidermal layer to return to its original density. If you don't tolerate fin (and I know you don't brother) an option would be to apply it ONCE WEEKLY for 3 weeks then allow a ONE WEEK CB-free period before starting this routine again!
> 
> That's how we treat kids with severe eczema! 7-10 day drug holiday generally allows their skin to go back to normal.


 Thanks Desmond!

Once a week, should in what amount?

----------


## Dan26

> Hey Clan 
> 
> Ppl are generally not sensitive to steroids as it is used for skin sensitivity! However, prolonged use on a daily basis may cause skin atrophy (thinning of the epidermal layer) meaning your skin may break very easily when scratching etc.
> 
> CB-03-01 is a ONCE WEEKLY formulation, which may not have such detrimental effects on the skin but then again we don't know! For those lucky ones that tolerate Finasteride, they may be able to switch between fin & CB on a monthly basis to allow the epidermal layer to return to its original density. If you don't tolerate fin (and I know you don't brother) an option would be to apply it ONCE WEEKLY for 3 weeks then allow a ONE WEEK CB-free period before starting this routine again!
> 
> That's how we treat kids with severe eczema! 7-10 day drug holiday generally allows their skin to go back to normal.


 Hey Desmond, do you know what class steroid CB would be considered comparable too? Potent like beta or clobeatsol? More potent?

----------


## clandestine

Thanks so much for the reply Des, the clarification is much appreciated!

----------


## Desmond84

> Hey Desmond, do you know what class steroid CB would be considered comparable too? Potent like beta or clobeatsol? More potent?


 CB's a very unique steroid as it has anti-androgenic properties! No other corticosteroid has such properties, which could mean two things: either it's anti-androgenic properties has made its steroidal activity minimal at best or it has steroidal properties just like any other topical steroids out there!

The only way to answer your question Dan is to conduct a Phase 2 trial, which is happening as we speak! The results should be released by January 2014. We just have to hang tight  :Smile:  The answers are coming

----------


## Desmond84

> Thanks so much for the reply Des, the clarification is much appreciated!


 No worries Clan  :Wink:  




> Thanks Desmond!
> 
> Once a week, should in what amount?


 I don't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure Cosmo Pharmaceuticals tried the 5% formula with outrageous results!

----------


## Hairismylife

> No worries Clan  
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure Cosmo Pharmaceuticals tried the 5% formula with outrageous results!


 But, once a week, means 6 CB-free weekday, can't imagine it can help hairloss, as you know minoxidil is to be applied daily to work.

Btw, what vehicle should I use for CB? And 5% means how much CB in how much vehicle, sorry I'm a chemistry idiot :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown:

----------


## Desmond84

> But, once a week, means 6 CB-free weekday, can't imagine it can help hairloss, as you know minoxidil is to be applied daily to work.
> 
> Btw, what vehicle should I use for CB? And 5&#37; means how much CB in how much vehicle, sorry I'm a chemistry idiot


 It blocks the androgen receptors for about a week before being washed away, hence once weekly dosing  :Smile: 

With regards to vehicle and strength...it is going to be very difficult to find the right one ATM...so far we know that only ionopheresis can  provide adequate topical absorption to halt hairloss. There is no data on other vehicles which makes in-house manufacturing quite difficult!

Ionopheresis is a device that costs $200-$300 and tbh I'm not quite sure how to use it! Has anyone actually tried the ionopheresis method btw?

P.S. No question is stupid to ask? That's why we're here brother

----------


## Hairismylife

> It blocks the androgen receptors for about a week before being washed away, hence once weekly dosing 
> 
> With regards to vehicle and strength...it is going to be very difficult to find the right one ATM...so far we know that only ionopheresis can  provide adequate topical absorption to halt hairloss. There is no data on other vehicles which makes in-house manufacturing quite difficult!
> 
> Ionopheresis is a device that costs $200-$300 and tbh I'm not quite sure how to use it! Has anyone actually tried the ionopheresis method btw?
> 
> P.S. No question is stupid to ask? That's why we're here brother


 Hellouser is using CB but I dunno what vehicle he use, i'm waiting his response

Actually I'm using Mpbt premixed RU but i'm worry about any possible side effect,
is RU such a risky thing that you dont suggest using?

I remember RU has ever passed Phase 1 testing this means that it's safe?

----------


## KO1

The key is that androgen receptors take some time to regenerate, but I don't know if that is days or hours. Anyone know?




> With regards to vehicle and strength...it is going to be very difficult to find the right one ATM...so far we know that only ionopheresis can  provide adequate topical absorption to halt hairloss.


 They're using an anhydrous vehicle, so strong chance it could be E/PG. The cream is for acne, but we may not need it. 




> CB's a very unique steroid as it has anti-androgenic properties! No other corticosteroid has such properties, which could mean two things: either it's anti-androgenic properties has made its steroidal activity minimal at best or it has steroidal properties just like any other topical steroids out there!


 It should be milder than other corticosteroids as it becomes converted to cortodoxone which is less potent than cortisol which is far less potent than clobetasol. Just my guess.




> I don't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure Cosmo Pharmaceuticals tried the 5% formula with *outrageous result*s!


 They have said the 5% formula is for AGA, but where did u see their results out of curiosity?

----------


## Hairismylife

> The key is that androgen receptors take some time to regenerate, but I don't know if that is days or hours. Anyone know?
> 
> 
> 
> They're using an anhydrous vehicle, so strong chance it could be E/PG. The cream is for acne, but we may not need it. 
> 
> 
> 
> It should be milder than other corticosteroids as it becomes converted to cortodoxone which is less potent than cortisol which is far less potent than clobetasol. Just my guess.
> ...


 Can use KB solution instead?

----------


## KO1

https://www.thieme-connect.com/ejour...s-0031-1297043




> Summary
> 
> The aim of this study was to investigate the antiandrogenic activity of a new monoester of cortexolone, cortexolone 17α-propionate (CAS 19608-29-8, CB-03-01). Although the compound displayed a strong local antiandrogenic activity in hamster's flank organ test, *it did not exhibit antiandrogenic activity in rats after subcutaneous injection*, nor did it affect gonadotropins hypersecretion when injected to parabiotic rats. As topical antiandrogen, the steroid resulted about 4 times more active than progesterone (CAS 57-83-0) and, when compared to known antiandrogen standards,* it was about 3 times more potent than flutamide (CAS 13311-84-7), about 2 times more effective than finasteride (CAS 98319-26-7) and approximately as active as cyproterone acetate (CAS 427-51-0).* Its pharmacological activity seemed to be primarily related to its ability to antagonistically compete at androgen receptor level; nevertheless its primary pharmacological target needs to be further investigated. Its topical activity, along with the apparent absence of systemic effects, anticipates this compound to have the potential of representing a novel and safe therapeutic approach for androgen-de-pendent skin disorders.


 This paper is from 2004 btw. The key is that it should be locally antiandrogenic ONLY.

----------


## yan

> It blocks the androgen receptors for about a week before being washed away, hence once weekly dosing


 Where did you read that it blocks receptors for about a week? They applied it twice weekly in the alopecia tests and in acne tests once daily. If true, CB would be even more amazing. Wow just imagine, you spend 10 min a week and keep your hair forever. In my opinion, this is nearly a cure for low norwoods. 

I guess they use it once daily for acne bcs of its anti-inflammatory properties? Wouldn't make sense to use it daily if receptors are blocked for a week.

----------


## Hairismylife

> https://www.thieme-connect.com/ejour...s-0031-1297043
> 
> 
> 
> This paper is from 2004 btw. The key is that it should be locally antiandrogenic ONLY.


 Then it should be unsystematic? Glad to here that if it's true :Smile: 

Btw, I just think of a question. Now the problem of CB is the vehicle is not so penetrating compared to Cosmo Ion method. Say, 50% less penetrating, so if I double the concentration, I should have the same amount of CB reaching my receptor achieving the same effect. Any conceptual error?

----------


## hellouser

> Then it should be unsystematic? Glad to here that if it's true
> 
> Btw, I just think of a question. Now the problem of CB is the vehicle is not so penetrating compared to Cosmo Ion method. Say, 50% less penetrating, so if I double the concentration, I should have the same amount of CB reaching my receptor achieving the same effect. Any conceptual error?


 I think doubling the dosage wouldnt give the desired results as Cosmo, probably a little more complicated than that...

----------


## hellouser

> Ionopheresis is a device that costs $200-$300 and tbh I'm not quite sure how to use it! Has anyone actually tried the ionopheresis method btw?
> 
> P.S. No question is stupid to ask? That's why we're here brother


 You can make your own ionopheresis device for much less. Check out some youtube tutorial videos.

----------


## Scoots

So on the iron dragon website it says they will be selling cb in 5 weeks (Cortexone 17 alpha propionate)...anybody think the vehicle they will be mixing it with will be the right one?

----------


## Hairismylife

> So on the iron dragon website it says they will be selling cb in 5 weeks (Cortexone 17 alpha propionate)...anybody think the vehicle they will be mixing it with will be the right one?


 Are u sure they are selling pre-mixed CB?

----------


## KO1

It is a solution, and it is going to be in either Ethanol or DMSO.....

----------


## simba

> It is a solution, and it is going to be in either Ethanol or DMSO.....


 And are these the right vehicles?

----------


## burtandernie

> Where did you read that it blocks receptors for about a week? They applied it twice weekly in the alopecia tests and in acne tests once daily. If true, CB would be even more amazing. Wow just imagine, you spend 10 min a week and keep your hair forever. In my opinion, this is nearly a cure for low norwoods. 
> 
> I guess they use it once daily for acne bcs of its anti-inflammatory properties? Wouldn't make sense to use it daily if receptors are blocked for a week.


 Yeah I agree here if they find a vehicle that works well, nothing weird comes up, its priced reasonably, and its once a week then this could really be a preventative cure. A preventative cure that is safe is really important. If you cant keep hair your going to be getting expensive transplants or whatever they come up with periodically forever. We need better prevention that is safe and we dont have it now.

----------


## burtandernie

If your not worried taking a hormone altering drug for 20 years then you lack common sense about how internal drugs work because how they work exactly no one knows. This CB 03 01 is possibly a safe much more effective way to keep hair. Cant come soon enough. Every year we have to wait is a year too long.
I just really hope they see this through financially and its priced realistic. Im worried its going to cost a ton.

----------


## simba

> If your not worried taking a hormone altering drug for 20 years then you lack common sense about how internal drugs work because how they work exactly no one knows. This CB 03 01 is possibly a safe much more effective way to keep hair. Cant come soon enough. Every year we have to wait is a year too long.
> I just really hope they see this through financially and its priced realistic. Im worried its going to cost a ton.


 Well Kane is selling non mixed cb for super cheap, I doubt the vehicle would cost all that much. It just needs to be our NOW

----------


## Conpecia

we have to get the dosage and vehicle down pat. this is the savior for guys like me and clandestine.

----------


## thechamp

Are you forgetting thechamp also is cb safe ?

----------


## Cob984

well iv been on CB form 3 in kb solution at around 15 mg daily for a few weeks,
it doesnt seem to be doing much,
im also on RU 10-15 mg daily but thats too low a dose,
I tried I/C indo is bs, it makes my scalp itch like mad, chromo is v good in that my hair looks better immediately unfortunately i get huge dark circles under my eyes, it fks my face up so i had to drop it,
I am on ramotraban and topical cet daily which do a little but not much,

So thats my update, hairloss not stopped, temples still receding, FML

----------


## hellouser

> well iv been on CB form 3 in kb solution at around 15 mg daily for a few weeks,
> it doesnt seem to be doing much,
> im also on RU 10-15 mg daily but thats too low a dose,
> I tried I/C indo is bs, it makes my scalp itch like mad, chromo is v good in that my hair looks better immediately unfortunately i get huge dark circles under my eyes, it fks my face up so i had to drop it,
> I am on ramotraban and topical cet daily which do a little but not much,
> 
> So thats my update, hairloss not stopped, temples still receding, FML


 Where did you get CB?

----------


## Cob984

Kane

----------


## hellouser

> Kane


 Is it form III? And does it dissolve fully?

----------


## Conpecia

Cobb:

you are putting way too much experimental shit on your head man. i don't think it's healthy to take RU + CB + CET + Ramatroban. 

from everything i've read the kitchen sink approach can do more harm than good. i would just stick with RU for a few months on its own, that's the most proven thing out of all this. maybe gradually increase the dosage until you're at 50mg or so. 

we still don't know the proper CB vehicle or dosage. we have no clue about Ramatroban. CET seems like it works but who knows about combining it with all this other shit?

i know it sucks to keep losing hair but you could get into trouble dumping a bunch of different treatments on your scalp every day. and also they could be less effective when taken together.

----------


## Cob984

Hmm i might reduce cb to every other day till proper vehicle is established

Btw yes its form 3 and it dissolves very easily in kb

----------


## hellouser

> Hmm i might reduce cb to every other day till proper vehicle is established
> 
> Btw yes its form 3 and it dissolves very easily in kb


 Youre using KB?

Shouldn't you be using Oleyl/PG as that was what was most likely used in the trials?

----------


## Cob984

i have no idea where to get oleyl from

----------


## simba

Iron dragon updated their website, said its cb is now available in 1 week instead of 5. Plus they wrote this.

http://www.iron-dragon.com/product_i...ad1606e7320d7b

CB is in clinical trials for acne, what vehicle are they using for that? Im guessing itll be the same as it needs to penetrate the skin for it to work against acne.

----------


## hellouser

> Iron dragon updated their website, said its cb is now available in 1 week instead of 5. Plus they wrote this.
> 
> http://www.iron-dragon.com/product_i...ad1606e7320d7b
> 
> CB is in clinical trials for acne, what vehicle are they using for that? Im guessing itll be the same as it needs to penetrate the skin for it to work against acne.


 Cosmo stated it will be an Anhydrous vehicle.

----------


## Cob984

> Iron dragon updated their website, said its cb is now available in 1 week instead of 5. Plus they wrote this.
> 
> http://www.iron-dragon.com/product_i...ad1606e7320d7b
> 
> CB is in clinical trials for acne, what vehicle are they using for that? Im guessing itll be the same as it needs to penetrate the skin for it to work against acne.


 Yes finally, im getting it asap

----------


## clandestine

> Yes finally, im getting it asap


 Same, decided.

----------


## Cob984

Wtf im unable to see the correct shipping option on the ID website for international shipping,

anyone else getting this?

----------


## goldbondmafia

Has anyone actually had good results from CB in terms of maintenance or regrowth? Is it supposed to work like fin/RU to maintain hair or regrow it like minox does?

----------


## hellouser

> Has anyone actually had good results from CB in terms of maintenance or regrowth? Is it supposed to work like fin/RU to maintain hair or regrow it like minox does?


 Too early to tell. We'll know in the coming months with Kane's CB.

----------


## BudskiiHD

> Has anyone actually had good results from CB in terms of maintenance or regrowth? Is it supposed to work like fin/RU to maintain hair or regrow it like minox does?


 Maintain and thicken existing hair like Fin/RU. CB-03-01 binds to androgen receptors( like RU58841 ) so androgens can't bind and do any damage. It won't regrow any hair on a slick bald area.

----------


## hellouser

> Maintain and thicken existing hair like Fin/RU. CB-03-01 binds to androgen receptors( like RU58841 ) so androgens can't bind and do any damage. It won't regrow any hair on a slick bald area.


 many vellus hairs could and should turn terminal. from cosmo's presentations, hair became about 50% thicker, with 40% more hair count. both of these factors should make a world of a difference in terms of overall density.

----------


## goldbondmafia

> Maintain and thicken existing hair like Fin/RU. CB-03-01 binds to androgen receptors( like RU58841 ) so androgens can't bind and do any damage. It won't regrow any hair on a slick bald area.


 oh for sure, I don't expect anything to regrow hair on a slick bald area, just looking for something that may regrow thinning hair for my hairline personally. Don't know if I should try minoxidil or wait for CB...




> Too early to tell. We'll know in the coming months with Kane's CB.


 Is Kane's supposed to be legit compared to other sources for getting CB? Good to hear they are on it though

----------


## BudskiiHD

> many vellus hairs could and should turn terminal. from cosmo's presentations, hair became about 50&#37; thicker, with 40% more hair count. both of these factors should make a world of a difference in terms of overall density.


 Hmm, but the results that are possible with cb-03-01 should also be achievable with RU58841 since they are both doing the same thing. Maybe CB-03-01 has higher binding affinity when compared to RU58841, or maybe cb-03-01 reaches the target better when compared RU58841. But, note in the CB-03-01 POC study they did use Iontophoresis which certainly improved the results. So yeh, I guess we will have to wait and see. But honestly, I don't think think it's anything to be really hyped about, but it is something I guess. Since once FDA approved it will be cheaper and no "bad batches" as with RU. I'd rather just call it the "convenient RU58841".

----------


## StayThick

> Iron dragon updated their website, said its cb is now available in 1 week instead of 5. Plus they wrote this.
> 
> http://www.iron-dragon.com/product_i...ad1606e7320d7b
> 
> CB is in clinical trials for acne, what vehicle are they using for that? Im guessing itll be the same as it needs to penetrate the skin for it to work against acne.


 I'll jump on this if its premixed. Anybody know if Iron Dragon will be offering this in a premixed version?

I hope it doesn't ruin my eyes like RU did...fingers crossed

----------


## mari0s

> many vellus hairs could and should turn terminal. from cosmo's presentations, hair became about 50% thicker, with 40% more hair count. both of these factors should make a world of a difference in terms of overall density.


 these results were archived by using iontophoresis, don't forget. The best thing should be buying the machine and make a try but you must be know how to use it

----------


## mari0s

Ok i know is an 3 yrs old proof of concept but i was look at it and something occurred to my mind.



Forget about cb-03-01 for a moment and look the results of cyproterone acetato and 17a-estradiol. They seems pretty amazing, i would be more than happy if the cyproterone that i use in my lotion + minox would have given that result.

Plus the effect seems to continues even after 4 weeks the treatments is done (which is not occur with a topical lotion that you have to use every day)

So maybe (maybe) our approach is quite wrong, it's more HOW to apply rather than What apply.

On a old thread on another site a user has writed this:
"The follicle actually lies fairly deep under the skin. Iontophoresis is interesting because research suggests that it largely aids transdermal absorption by sending the active ingredient down the hair shaft. 

The ideal scenario would be finding someone who can create cationic liposomes to encapsulate active ingredients. Then you could use a (fairly inexpensive) iontophoresis device to deliver it."

I dont have the knowledge to try, maybe someone has

----------


## yan

Not specifically related to CB 03 01: 

Lainate, Italy – 31 July 2013 
Cosmo reports excellent first half; new product sales exceed expectations and important progress is attained in products in development strong increase in profits  
http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...013-07-31.aspx


Some other info from the half-year report: 

"Work on attaining the proof of concept in CB-03-01 for Alopecia continues making progress."

"Valeant, who acquired our licensee Medicis late last year, has reiterated its high strategic interest in this product."

"The development of CB-03-01 continues as planned. The phase II for acne calls for 4 cohorts of 90 patients each to be treated with ascending doses. Currently patients for the third cohort are being recruited. To date there have been *no major adverse events*." 

"For CB-03-01 the Company believes it has an optimal solution in being assisted in the management of the phase II trials by the experience professionals of Intrepid Therapeutics Inc. and an optimal long term licensing partnership with Valeant who is the leader in skin diseases in the US." 

"CB-03-01 is applied topically. It *penetrates the skin well* and acts by displacing the androgen from the sebaceous gland or hair follicle."

Half-year report: 
http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F...rt-31-7-13.pdf

----------


## TravisB

> Not specifically related to CB 03 01: 
> 
> Lainate, Italy  31 July 2013 
> Cosmo reports excellent first half; new product sales exceed expectations and important progress is attained in products in development strong increase in profits  
> http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...013-07-31.aspx
> 
> 
> Some other info from the half-year report: 
> 
> ...


 Hmm, I wonder how will they deal with potentiall skin atrophy side effect, since CB-03-01 is a steroid. If we were to apply it to our scalps for the rest of our lives, it better NOT cause such serious side effect as skin atrophy.

----------


## mari0s

> "CB-03-01 is applied topically. It *penetrates the skin well* and acts by displacing the androgen from the sebaceous gland or hair follicle."
> 
> Half-year report: 
> http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F...rt-31-7-13.pdf


 Off course their final product must be a topical but given the great results they have archived even with the 17a-estradiol make me think that this way will be less effective than ionophoresis, in their R&D day of january they don't speak about the results they had with their new vehicle only about skin permeation test.

----------


## Hairismylife

Apply CB right after derma rolling could help :Confused:

----------


## yan

> Hmm, I wonder how will they deal with potentiall skin atrophy side effect, since CB-03-01 is a steroid. If we were to apply it to our scalps for the rest of our lives, it better NOT cause such serious side effect as skin atrophy.


 Is there even a minimum chance that it doesn`t cause this side effect?

Because as far as I know, every topical steroid can cause this side effect...  :Frown:  

If steroid atrophy is a side effect of CB, then its useless and not worth the risk. I would rather take a mini dose fin for the rest of my life than risk steroid atrophy on my head.

----------


## KeepHoping

Do you guys think it will have to be delivered through a specific vehicle to actually work?  Will this IronDragon site sell the right formulation and is it legal  for them to sell it?  I need some insight from you guys because I'm sure you all know more than I do about the legal process of patented drugs and delivery mechanisms and whatnot.  Thank you in advance.

----------


## hellouser

> Do you guys think it will have to be delivered through a specific vehicle to actually work?  Will this IronDragon site sell the right formulation and is it legal  for them to sell it?  I need some insight from you guys because I'm sure you all know more than I do about the legal process of patented drugs and delivery mechanisms and whatnot.  Thank you in advance.


 If they sell you legitimate CB, YOU have nothing to worry about other than the potential side effects (skin atrophy, although at 10mg dosage spread out across a large area of scalp is probably too little to make a difference).

----------


## TravisB

> Is there even a minimum chance that it doesn`t cause this side effect?
> 
> Because as far as I know, every topical steroid can cause this side effect...  
> 
> If steroid atrophy is a side effect of CB, then its useless and not worth the risk. I would rather take a mini dose fin for the rest of my life than risk steroid atrophy on my head.


 If the steroid is relatively weak, and isn't applied every day (CB is meant to be applied once a week), then maybe that side effect can be avoided, but I'm not an expert. However I'm not sure what would happen after very prolonged use even with once a week application.

Note that CB-03-01 is now into Phase II for acne and they report no serious side effects, and it's also applied to the skin (however I don't know how often), so maybe they avoided skin atrophy side effect somehow.

----------


## hellouser

Wikipedia article on steroid skin atrophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid_atrophy

----------


## yan

> Note that CB-03-01 is now into Phase II for acne and they report no serious side effects, and it's also applied to the skin (however I don't know how often), so maybe they avoided skin atrophy side effect somehow.


 Daily for acne... And I guess you have to use it daily too for alopecia...

----------


## TravisB

> Wikipedia article on steroid skin atrophy
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid_atrophy


 This article says that corticosteroids cause skin atrophy. Meanwhile CB-03-01 is steroidal ester.

Is there a difference between corticosteroid and steroidal ester?

Maybe CB-03-01 don't have the potential to cause skin atrophy afterall?

Don't you think if there was skin atrophy they would observe this in the trials by now? Meanwhile they state there were no side effects (they are now into phase II for acne, and they did pilot study for MPB)

----------


## yan

> Wikipedia article on steroid skin atrophy
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid_atrophy


 That article scares me so hard...  :EEK!:  

"The potential for the condition exists whenever topical corticosteroids are used, even with low potency preparations."  

If I read this article, it seems like it is 100% sure you will get that side effect...

----------


## hellouser

> That article scares me so hard...  
> 
> "The potential for the condition exists whenever topical corticosteroids are used, even with low potency preparations."  
> 
> If I read this article, it seems like it is 100% sure you will get that side effect...


 Best to talk to some doctors and ask Cosmo as well in regards to this.

----------


## TravisB

> That article scares me so hard...  
> 
> "The potential for the condition exists whenever topical corticosteroids are used, even with low potency preparations."  
> 
> If I read this article, it seems like it is 100% sure you will get that side effect...


 Then how come they didn't report it in the trials? The trials are going for some time now and if they apply it every day as you said the skin atrophy would be visible very fast.

Meanwhile they stated today that there are no serious side effects so far, and they are already into phase II.

I think they know what they are doing

----------


## yan

Interesting fact: 

CB-03-01 = Cortodoxone, also known as cortexolone or 11-deoxycortisol 

"Cortodoxone functions as a glucocorticoid, though is less potent than cortisol."  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortodoxone

Topical steroids are classified according to their strenght. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topical_steroid

Class IV (up to 600 times as potent as hydrocortisone (Cortisol))

...
Class II (2-25 times as potent as hydrocortisone (Cortisol))

Lowest class is Class I (mild - as potent as hydrocortisone (Cortisol)) 


So it looks like CB-03-01 is even milder than the current lowest defined class. Its less potent than cortisol itself.

Maybe that would explain why they reported no side effects so far. We have to consider that they used CB on the face. The face is far more sensitive to corticosteroids than the scalp. 

I guess they are not stupid. They wouldn`t even consider CB as a treatment for MPB if it had such serious side effects like skin atrophy.

----------


## TravisB

> I guess they are not stupid. They wouldn`t even consider CB as a treatment for MPB if it had such serious side effects like skin atrophy.


 Exactly

IMO there's a very good chance CB-03-01 will be our new, better standard after Finasteride.

However I don't think the alopecia version will be on the market until 2017-2019. But perhaps acne version will also be effective for MPB, we'll see. 

There's a chance that acne version will be on the market in 2016.

----------


## hellouser

> Exactly
> 
> IMO there's a very good chance CB-03-01 will be our new, better standard after Finasteride.
> 
> However I don't think the alopecia version will be on the market until 2017-2019. But perhaps acne version will also be effective for MPB, we'll see. 
> 
> There's a chance that acne version will be on the market in 2016.


 Once the acne version hits the market or comes close, the black market copy of it should be EASILY reproduced and used on our own. We're nearly there already anyway.

----------


## TravisB

> Once the acne version hits the market or comes close, the black market copy of it should be EASILY reproduced and used on our own. We're nearly there already anyway.


 There already is CB-03-01 on black market, and some people used it with no results. So the explanation is:

1. The CB-03-01 on black market is fake
2. Vehicle is the problem (of course when CB-03-01 will hit the shelves it will have the right vehicle)

----------


## hellouser

> There already is CB-03-01 on black market, and some people used it with no results. So the explanation is:
> 
> 1. The CB-03-01 on black market is fake
> 2. Vehicle is the problem (of course when CB-03-01 will hit the shelves it will have the right vehicle)


 Even if it hits shelves for acne, the vehicle will be anhydrous for hair loss, which is 1-2 years after the acne product.

Pretty fvcking dumb of cosmo to release a product for acne when theres so much stuff for that issue and so many more men suffering from hair loss and so much more SHIT on the market that doesnt work.

----------


## KeepHoping

Are you gonna trail the iron dragon stuff?

----------


## hellouser

> Are you gonna trail the iron dragon stuff?


 I'm considering it. The price is ridiculously low. However I wonder how much  $45 gets you.

Only issue with Iron Dragon is purity. If anyone knows if Iron Dragon is reliable, please let me know  :Smile:

----------


## KeepHoping

> I'm considering it. The price is ridiculously low. However I wonder how much  $45 gets you.
> 
> Only issue with Iron Dragon is purity. If anyone knows if Iron Dragon is reliable, please let me know


 I have no idea man, I know people have been trying stuff off their website but I'm not sure to what extent it really works.

----------


## KeepHoping

Also even if it only gets you a small amount, do you really need a lot of the product?  In the trial it was used once a week right?

----------


## yan

My faith is restored in CB after this little research...  :Wink:  :Smile:

----------


## yan

> Also even if it only gets you a small amount, do you really need a lot of the product?  In the trial it was used once a week right?


 "All subjects were given 5 treatments (in sessions once or twice a week)"

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx

But strange thing is, the subjects had impressive regrowth even 1 week and 1 month AFTER last treatment. Iontophoresis must be really powerful. 
Imagine if you can achieve that with a topical. You take the stuff twice a week for a month, then stop for a month and have like 40&#37; more follicular density. Would be amazing :P 

And as we all know, DHT needs up to 6 months to destroy those hairs again. Would be amazing if you could take this stuff twice a year for like a month haha. Just a dream I guess. 

The problem is that a topical solution will most probably not be nearly as effective as iontophoresis. So you have to use it maybe daily to deliver the same amount of CB to the hair follicle.

----------


## hellouser

> Also even if it only gets you a small amount, do you really need a lot of the product?  In the trial it was used once a week right?


 It was used twice a week using iontophoresis. Very different. And no, you don't need a lot. 10mg per application gave pretty much the same results as 50mg.

----------


## FearTheLoss

I thought cosmo was aiming to have CB on the market by 2016 for hair loss?

----------


## chimera

> I thought cosmo was aiming to have CB on the market by 2016 for hair loss?


 Nope. 2016 is when they think they will be able to release CB for acne. CB for hair loss will take even more time to be released.

----------


## yan

> I thought cosmo was aiming to have CB on the market by 2016 for hair loss?


 Hm I think the timeline slipped several times in the past. 

early 2015: end of proof of concept (phase 2a) 

...then maybe phase 2b? 

...and then at least 18 months for phase 3 

Its more like 2017 - 2018

They keyword until then is MAINTAIN... I`m currently taking 0.2mg FIN twice a week since 3 months. No side effect (had side effects with 1mg daily) and even thickened up my hair a bit with that small amount. Maybe I`m a good responder, I don`t know... But no debate about fin please. Fin is stone age and needs to get replaced with better stuff. Period.  :Wink:

----------


## hellouser

> "All subjects were given 5 treatments (in sessions once or twice a week)"
> 
> http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx
> 
> But strange thing is, the subjects had impressive regrowth even 1 week and 1 month AFTER last treatment. Iontophoresis must be really powerful. 
> Imagine if you can achieve that with a topical. You take the stuff twice a week for a month, then stop for a month and have like 40&#37; more follicular density. Would be amazing :P 
> 
> And as we all know, DHT needs up to 6 months to destroy those hairs again. Would be amazing if you could take this stuff twice a year for like a month haha. Just a dream I guess. 
> 
> The problem is that a topical solution will most probably not be nearly as effective as iontophoresis. So you have to use it maybe daily to deliver the same amount of CB to the hair follicle.


 Ideally, it would be best to use a iontophoresis device for the scalp. There needs to be an initiative to find one.... SPECIFICALLY for the scalp.

Perhaps this also renders skin atrophy impossible?

----------


## hellouser

> Nope. 2016 is when they think they will be able to release CB for acne. CB for hair loss will take even more time to be released.


 No, 2016 is the absolute earliest date Cosmo could release it. I emailed Cosmo about this in December, 2011:

_Dear XXXXX
Unfortunately the clinical trials will take some more time. It is unlikely that the product will be in the market before 2016.
Best regards

Dr. Chris Tanner_

----------


## yan

> Ideally, it would be best to use a iontophoresis device for the scalp. There needs to be an initiative to find one.... SPECIFICALLY for the scalp.
> 
> Perhaps this also renders skin atrophy impossible?


 I would certainly be the best! I remember someone wrote he built his own device. But to be honest, I have no idea...

----------


## yan

> No, 2016 is the absolute earliest date Cosmo could release it. I emailed Cosmo about this in December, 2011:
> 
> _Dear XXXXX
> Unfortunately the clinical trials will take some more time. It is unlikely that the product will be in the market before 2016.
> Best regards
> 
> Dr. Chris Tanner_


 I checked every single presentation they published. Since 2011, the timeline unfortunately slipped several times... I think this info isn`t accurate anymore. Maybe if they skip phase 2b? 
Is 2b always necessary? Does someone know?

----------


## hellouser

> I checked every single presentation they published. Since 2011, the timeline unfortunately slipped several times... I think this info isn`t accurate anymore. Maybe if they skip phase 2b? 
> Is 2b always necessary? Does someone know?


 Perhaps for an Asian release, which wouldnt be a bad idea, you can always release there and have it imported. Much easier than going to asia for a Replicel procedure.

----------


## chimera

> No, 2016 is the absolute earliest date Cosmo could release it. I emailed Cosmo about this in December, 2011:


 Woa, that's great. And I was thinking it would be released around 2020. But just 2 or 3 more years does not sounds that bad.

Like how much do you guys think it will cost when it is actually released on the mainstream market?

----------


## TravisB

> Woa, that's great. And I was thinking it would be released around 2020. But just 2 or 3 more years does not sounds that bad.
> 
> Like how much do you guys think it will cost when it is actually released on the mainstream market?


 Yeah, 2016 is not that far away, but it will be version for ACNE.

We can't be sure if acne vehicle will be effective against MPB.

MPB version will probably come somewhere between 2017-2019 (if ever)

----------


## hellouser

> Yeah, 2016 is not that far away, but it will be version for ACNE.
> 
> We can't be sure if acne vehicle will be effective against MPB.
> 
> MPB version will probably come somewhere between 2017-2019 (if ever)


 If the acne vehicle penetrates skin and can get to the hair follicle, it will work.

----------


## TravisB

> If the acne vehicle penetrates skin and can get to the hair follicle, it will work.


 It would be great!

Hopefully it won't be a prescription medication so we'll be able to just buy it anytime we want.

However it probably will be prescription unfortunately since it's steroidal.

----------


## Conpecia

Guys why aren't we focusing on the fact that we HAVE CB NOW?? Meaning we need to find the correct vehicle and dosage. We also need to see how much CB is in what Iron Dragon is selling. Waiting until 2016 seems strange when it's allegedly right here...

----------


## hellouser

> Guys why aren't we focusing on the fact that we HAVE CB NOW?? Meaning we need to find the correct vehicle and dosage. We also need to see how much CB is in what Iron Dragon is selling. Waiting until 2016 seems strange when it's allegedly right here...


 I'm curious how much CB you actually get for $45 from Iron Dragon.

But I fully agree. I'm gonna be trialing CB with Oleyl/PG  :Smile:

----------


## simba

> Even if it hits shelves for acne, the vehicle will be anhydrous for hair loss, which is 1-2 years after the acne product.
> 
> Pretty fvcking dumb of cosmo to release a product for acne when theres so much stuff for that issue and so many more men suffering from hair loss and so much more SHIT on the market that doesnt work.


 Youve said itll be an "anhydrous" vehicle a few times now but I dont know what that means, could you explain? Im guessing it just means a cream instead of a liquid.

----------


## yan

> Youve said itll be an "anhydrous" vehicle a few times now but I dont know what that means, could you explain? Im guessing it just means a cream instead of a liquid.


 Its anhydrous if it contains no water. It dont have to be a cream. A cream will most probably not work on the head and it would be a big mess to apply it in your hair.

----------


## hellouser

> Its anhydrous if it contains no water. It dont have to be a cream. A cream will most probably not work on the head and it would be a big mess to apply it in your hair.


 Would be pretty fvcking AWESOME if it we're completely dry. Just apply CB and then style hair. Use Minoxidil at night and you've got an awesome one-two punch. Dermarolling once a week shold give results as well.

----------


## yan

> Would be pretty fvcking AWESOME if it we're completely dry. Just apply CB and then style hair. Use Minoxidil at night and you've got an awesome one-two punch. Dermarolling once a week shold give results as well.


 Indeed! I hope so much all goes well...

----------


## hellouser

> Indeed! I hope so much all goes well...


 There's also this which contains saw palmetto:

http://www.folica.com/hair-care/hair...-three-five-oz

I doubt it will do much, if at all, but saw palmetto being there is better than the regular crap that we use normally.

----------


## Conpecia

def start a trial thread on the CB hellouser, good luck dude. when is it supposed to arrive?

----------


## hellouser

> def start a trial thread on the CB hellouser, good luck dude. when is it supposed to arrive?


 I need help ordering and paying on Kane's website. Its so confusing... nothing is explained on how to pay.

----------


## yan

Btw regarding the safety: 

Phase 2 European Pilot study for acne: http://intrepidthera.com/wp-co...2011-Trifu-et-al-.pdf 

"During the study, no concerns were raised regarding the local and systemic safety of CB-03-01." 

"No serious AEs were detected through the study, no drop-outs occurred for safety reasons, and no differences among the groups were noticed concerning the nature and the incidence of AEs."

They applied 1&#37; CB once daily for 8 weeks.

----------


## yan

Effectiveness of two vehicles for CB-03-01:


On human skin, in vitro:

~1&#37; CB in Propylene Glycol has an average:

Permeation Rate of 7
Skin concentration of 36


~1% CB in Propylene Glycol and Oleyl Alcohol 9.1 has an average:

Permeation Rate of 1410
Skin Concentration of 231


http://files.investis.com/csm/presen.../RDday2010.pdf - Page 74

On page 7 you can see the timeline they had in 2010. They planned to finish the proof of concept for the alopecia formulation in H1 / 2013. Timeline slipped two years since 2010.. :/

----------


## thechamp

Do you think cb will be effective ?

----------


## deuce

> Do you think cb will be effective ?


 I HOPE it does work for everyones sake.  Only thing is I have not seen one person report its effectiveness because no one can find the proper vehicle for it.  I am not an expert on mixtures and stuff so I am not sure.  What makes yall think it will work this time around?

----------


## thechamp

How can we find the vehicle

----------


## simba

> Effectiveness of two vehicles for CB-03-01:
> 
> 
> On human skin, in vitro:
> 
> ~1% CB in Propylene Glycol has an average:
> 
> Permeation Rate of 7
> Skin concentration of 36
> ...


 Im guessing this means Propylene Glycol and Oleyl Alcohol are perfect vehicles?

----------


## huawei

Hey all, a few days ago Cosmo released a financial report for shareholders which is available on their site. 

The two key points relating to this drug are as follows 

1. Phase II trials are half done for CB-03-01 but only for acne. 
2. Phase I trials for CB-03-01 for MPB are about 80% done. 

Here's in only info available in the doc relating to the Phase I:

Phase I alopecia 
Completion of toxicological studies ongoing  
Phase I PK ongoing (treatment completed)

so it's safe to say that if it goes to phase 2 saftey of the product is pretty much assured for all you clandestine hair loss fighters.

----------


## burtandernie

That is good news just to see it progress for MPB I just hope they finish it and it ends up turning out as good as it sounds. Im more hype for this then I am anything else. I would be more then happy just keeping the hair I have more safely.

----------


## lilpauly

i think we are going about cb the wrong way! people need to use a strength great then 1% and they must use the vehicle in the patent! higher then 1% is going to be expensive the price needs to come down. if your only targeting the hairline then its an option

also here  is the test report of the cb-from kane. kane is the ONLY source that right form !
from the chemist:
 have reviewed the data regarding CB-03-01. The compound is found to be pure based on evaluation of the HPLC chromatogram and NMR spectral data. If you need further insight into the evaluation of this data, please feel free to ask, and I will be happy to provide you with more detail regarding the identification and characterization of CB-03-01 from the data provided.

The NMR from ' looks good. There are 34 hydrogens in the MF for CD-03-01 which all appear within the integrations of this NMR spectra at the expected ppm absorptions for their respective structural positions. It is from this observation that one can suggest not only is this compound identified, but it is pure. i will upload both kanes test results and the third party test results

----------


## simba

I tried emailing iron dragon asking what vehicle they're using

"Hello, I noticed you will soon be making Cortexolone 17 alpha propionate (or CB-03-01) available on your website and I have a few questions.

Will you be releasing this in solution or powder form? If solution what vehicle will you be using?"

Their reply was

"Hello,

Please refer to our newsletter that was recently posted about this product.

Thank you,

ID"

Not very useful, I also couldn't find what they were using in their newsletter, can anyone else.

----------


## StayThick

> I tried emailing iron dragon asking what vehicle they're using
> 
> "Hello, I noticed you will soon be making Cortexolone 17 alpha propionate (or CB-03-01) available on your website and I have a few questions.
> 
> Will you be releasing this in solution or powder form? If solution what vehicle will you be using?"
> 
> Their reply was
> 
> "Hello,
> ...


 

I was literally just about to email them too. I would like to know this before purchasing as well. I would prefer a premade olution, problem is nobody here knows the correct vehicle.

----------


## Sogeking

This sounds great. All the benefits of finasteride without any side effects. I hope this comes out soon. I hope it works. I hope...

----------


## bibz

Cb presale on irondragon, i ordered mine this morning, HERE WE GO!

----------


## StayThick

> Cb presale on irondragon, i ordered mine this morning, HERE WE GO!


 Did you confirm if it will be in powdered form or a premade solution???

----------


## Cob984

Damn they have some problem with international shipping ,
goddamit i need this NOW

----------


## Avacfc

> Did you confirm if it will be in powdered form or a premade solution???


 I have put this question to them twice now and they wont give me a clear answer of how it will be sold, they kept saying read our information on the website!

----------


## Cob984

> I have put this question to them twice now and they wont give me a clear answer of how it will be sold, they kept saying read our information on the website!


 wtf thats bs, im expecting it to be a soluution, i dont think they sell powdered anything

----------


## simba

> I have put this question to them twice now and they wont give me a clear answer of how it will be sold, they kept saying read our information on the website!


 Was their response the same as the email I posted? Its probably an automated email.

----------


## bibz

Damn shut the fvck up, Iron dragon only sell LIQUID PREMADE SOLUTION, the only negative point its the lack of information(dosage, etc...). The presale is already over that's why you might have some problem to order it, they are already out of stock. They will normally sell it officialy in one or two weeks.

----------


## bibz

If this shit works, it will be the heaven for all of us. For guyz who can take fin or dut it will be the best combo ever. No more hairloss until the cure

----------


## chimera

> Damn shut the fvck up, Iron dragon only sell LIQUID PREMADE SOLUTION


 
Does that mean it will be ready for use right off the bat?

----------


## Avacfc

> Was their response the same as the email I posted? Its probably an automated email.


 This was there response I got when asking how it is sold:

Hello,
> 
> The best thing to do is to look at the new article that we have 
> just put up as of a matter of minutes ago. It is extremely thorough and I 
> am certain that you will find it interesting. In fact, it is the best 
> compilation of information that I have seen on Cortexolone yet. There are 
> citations of 17 independent studies. 
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> ID

----------


## simba

> This was there response I got when asking how it is sold:
> 
> Hello,
> > 
> > The best thing to do is to look at the new article that we have 
> > just put up as of a matter of minutes ago. It is extremely thorough and I 
> > am certain that you will find it interesting. In fact, it is the best 
> > compilation of information that I have seen on Cortexolone yet. There are 
> > citations of 17 independent studies. 
> ...


 err.....to me it sounds like theyre avoiding the question because theyre not sure what the best vehicle is.

I sure hope thats not the case, Im really banking on ID CB maintaining my hair until something better comes along

----------


## yan

Guys this CB is atm totally underrated. You dont seem to understand what I could mean for billions of men worldwide. If it works like promised in the early studies with nearly no side-effects, then this is the damn cure. I understand it isnt a cure for NW4+, but for all low norwoods, thats it. You dont have to think a damn second anymore about hair loss for the rest of your life. 

The day they announce the hopefully successful Phase 2 results and the initiation of Phase 3 will be the best day in my life.

----------


## Cob984

what ur missing is cb officialy from cosmo will hit mkt for hair loss 4-5 yrs away,
by then im toast

on another note, need to find the correct vehicle, right now it dissolves very easy in kb but i dont think it does squat and its bloody expensive,
here hoping iron dragon has figured it out a bit better

----------


## StayThick

> Damn shut the fvck up, Iron dragon only sell LIQUID PREMADE SOLUTION.


 
How about you STFU. It's clear nobody has received an accurate response from ID themself regarding this. Telling people to shut up when many of us would like answers before grabbing their credit card is annoying. Especially if it could mean  potentially buying another useless Indo/Chromo or whatever experimental treatment you want to plug in there.

How about you calm the F down and realize in the wrong vehicle, CB is utterly useless. Useless! Which at that point would only guarantee a dent in your wallet with nothing to show for it. Just playing Devil's advocate here. Point is, people on these forum asks questions to obtain the proper information before making stupid decisions and buying snake oil. That's the point of this forum.

You don't even know what ID is using as a vehicle yet are stating this could be a cure. You say it's a liquid, what liquid? Are you hearing yourself? Get a grip bro... You're losing it and I'm not just talking about your hair.

----------


## lilpauly

Correct fellas its all about the vehicle . Right now it looks like iron dragon and Kane are the only to suppliers that has cb. I tested Kane's cb and it is fact pure. The problem is we don't know the proper strength and vehicle . I'm hoping this can be solved very soon

----------


## simba

> Correct fellas its all about the vehicle . Right now it looks like iron dragon and Kane are the only to suppliers that has cb. I tested Kane's cb and it is fact pure. The problem is we don't know the proper strength and vehicle . I'm hoping this can be solved very soon


 I few pages back yan posted this

Originally Posted by yan  View Post
Effectiveness of two vehicles for CB-03-01:


On human skin, in vitro:

~1% CB in Propylene Glycol has an average:

Permeation Rate of 7
Skin concentration of 36


~1% CB in Propylene Glycol and Oleyl Alcohol 9.1 has an average:

Permeation Rate of 1410
Skin Concentration of 231


http://files.investis.com/csm/presen.../RDday2010.pdf - Page 74

On page 7 you can see the timeline they had in 2010. They planned to finish the proof of concept for the alopecia formulation in H1 / 2013. Timeline slipped two years since 2010.. :/


I thought this confirmed that Propylene Glycol and Oleyl Alcohol was the correct vehicle?

----------


## hellouser

> I few pages back yan posted this
> 
> Originally Posted by yan  View Post
> Effectiveness of two vehicles for CB-03-01:
> 
> 
> On human skin, in vitro:
> 
> ~1% CB in Propylene Glycol has an average:
> ...


 No, it was just the vehicle used in the trials.

----------


## simba

> No, it was just the vehicle used in the trials.


 Yes but as the permeation rate was so high (and skin concentration) doesnt that mean its the right vehicle?

----------


## hellouser

> Yes but as the permeation rate was so high (and skin concentration) doesnt that mean its the right vehicle?


 I wouldt know as I'm not sure what the numbers mean:




> ~1% CB in Propylene Glycol and Oleyl Alcohol 9.1 has an average:
> 
> Permeation Rate of 1410
> Skin Concentration of 231


 Lucky for me, I do have Oleyl on my and could easily apply CB much like Cosmo has. Do you know what the numbers for intophoresis are?

----------


## simba

> I wouldt know as I'm not sure what the numbers mean:
> 
> 
> 
> Lucky for me, I do have Oleyl on my and could easily apply CB much like Cosmo has. Do you know what the numbers for intophoresis are?


 In the PDF that was linked to, from page 68 onwards it talks about antiandrogens and the use of cb for acne and alopecia. The numbers for skin permeation for acne are described as permeating the skin well and having a noticeable effect, and even though it doesn't talk about why they used intophoresis or how much it permeated the skin, applying cb to the scalp should permeate as well as on the face(with acne) and will most likely have a decent effect. At the very least its worth using until we find out what vehicle Cosmo is using for current trials.

Now all we need to do is figure out what solution iron dragon is using and we should be set for the next year until new research comes out

----------


## yan

> and even though it doesn't talk about why they used intophoresis


 
I read in an older presentation that they used it in order to save money and time. If you guys really don`t believe me, I have to search the presentation.  :Frown:  :Wink:  

And its true, those permeation tests are like 2 or 3 years old and have nothing to do with the tests performed last year. So atm we have no idea which vehicle is the perfect one.

----------


## simba

> I read in an older presentation that they used it in order to save money and time. If you guys really don`t believe me, I have to search the presentation.  
> 
> And its true, those permeation tests are like 2 or 3 years old and have nothing to do with the tests performed last year. So atm we have no idea which vehicle is the perfect one.


 If you can find it that'll be great, there might be a useful nugget or two of information in there

----------


## yan

> If you can find it that'll be great, there might be a useful nugget or two of information in there


 I cant find it anymore. Too much information in those annual reports. Dozens of sites...  :Frown:  But I once read every single presentation and there are unfortunately no more information about a vehicle or permeation rate with iontophoresis.

----------


## lilpauly

Here's my opinion they have a cream for the acne. We used it in the past and no 1 got results because it contained ingredients that would not penetrate the hair shaft like mineral oil . Change the mineral oil to coconut oil for example the it would help get to the hair shaft

----------


## deuce

I just do not understand all the hype with this cb.  No proven results were ever shown in pics.  Fellas I hope it does work, but it gets me upset that there is no VISIBLE proof.  How in the world would we figure out this vehicle?  I think the best hope out there is what joe from staten island said on the bald truth about the newly rejuvinated bimatropost in phase 2 accelerated trials by allergen.

----------


## yan

> I just do not understand all the hype with this cb.  No proven results were ever shown in pics.  Fellas I hope it does work, but it gets me upset that there is no VISIBLE proof.  How in the world would we figure out this vehicle?  I think the best hope out there is what joe from staten island said on the bald truth about the newly rejuvinated bimatropost in phase 2 accelerated trials by allergen.


 Well the mechanism of blocking DHT and the results on the hair is well known. The only problem, as you said, is the vehicle. But one thing is 100% sure, if it reaches the hair follicle and block dht + testeron, it will stop your hair loss and give you some regrowth.

----------


## chimera

> I just do not understand all the hype with this cb.  No proven results were ever shown in pics.  Fellas I hope it does work, but it gets me upset that there is no VISIBLE proof.  How in the world would we figure out this vehicle?  I think the best hope out there is what joe from staten island said on the bald truth about the newly rejuvinated bimatropost in phase 2 accelerated trials by allergen.


 Bimatoprost has never done anything more than the prehistoric minox can do. Perhaps this new version can do a little more, but how much?, a hundred percent better, two hundred percent better?, that would still be low.

But, if we find the right vehicle for CB, it will practically be the cure for low Norwoods.

----------


## Hairismylife

I'm ready to buy CB from Kane and use KB as vehicle.
Any opinion?

----------


## hellouser

> I'm ready to buy CB from Kane and use KB as vehicle.
> Any opinion?


 If your using something like KB, you better be dermarolling. CB doesn't penetrate all that well in ethanol. I doubt KB will be any better.

----------


## petewete

What "vehicle" is this company running the trials using? Can we not just use the same approach? Or is it too expensive or complicated?

Maybe talking to a dermatologist or a chemist would give us a good idea on how to make this stuff penetrate into the scalp?

----------


## hellouser

> What "vehicle" is this company running the trials using? Can we not just use the same approach? Or is it too expensive or complicated?
> 
> Maybe talking to a dermatologist or a chemist would give us a good idea on how to make this stuff penetrate into the scalp?


 They used iontophoresis in the study but also *may* have used oleyl and propylene glycol as well. However, Cosmo has stated it will use an anhydrous (dry) vehicle.

Best bet is to either find an iontophoresis device OR use a good vehicle (oleyl) and exfoliate + dermaroll for better penetration.

----------


## simba

> They used iontophoresis in the study but also *may* have used oleyl and propylene glycol as well. However, Cosmo has stated it will use an anhydrous (dry) vehicle.
> 
> Best bet is to either find an iontophoresis device OR use a good vehicle (oleyl) and exfoliate + dermaroll for better penetration.


 Anhydrous means no water, which is different to "dry" (so still likely oleyl).

Im gonna risk derma roller + minox + cb with oleyl/glycol.

----------


## simba

Does anyone here have decent knowledge of Chemistry?

If I were to buy some propylene glycol and oleyl alcohol individually and mix them together then add CB would that be enough or is there a special way of mixing it?

----------


## hellouser

> Does anyone here have decent knowledge of Chemistry?
> 
> If I were to buy some propylene glycol and oleyl alcohol individually and mix them together then add CB would that be enough or is there a special way of mixing it?


 Thats all there is to it dude, its basically the same as RU.

----------


## Hairismylife

> They used iontophoresis in the study but also *may* have used oleyl and propylene glycol as well. However, Cosmo has stated it will use an anhydrous (dry) vehicle.
> 
> Best bet is to either find an iontophoresis device OR use a good vehicle (oleyl) and exfoliate + dermaroll for better penetration.


 Where can I get oleyl and propylene glycol? Does Kane sell?

----------


## FearTheLoss

I know saying this is useless..but i hate cosmo for trailing the acne version first...we could have had cb by 2014-15 if they had trialled hair loss version first...depressing

guess we just need to find the vehicle

----------


## hellouser

> I know saying this is useless..but i hate cosmo for trailing the acne version first...we could have had cb by 2014-15 if they had trialled hair loss version first...depressing
> 
> guess we just need to find the vehicle


 Once their acne solution comes out, replicating the CB compound should be significantly easier. Wont matter how long it takes them to release it, we'll be using it regardless.

----------


## lilpauly

Trust me I'm working with chemist , engineers and experts and we will find the right vehicle . Cosmo is using 5 % in the future

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Trust me I'm working with chemist , engineers and experts and we will find the right vehicle . Cosmo is using 5 % in the future


 lilpauly if you find the right vehicle this forum will praise you...

lilpauly's vacation fund donations on phg if you find it haha

----------


## hellouser

> lilpauly if you find the right vehicle this forum will praise you...
> 
> lilpauly's vacation fund donations on phg if you find it haha


 Just use oleyl/pg for now and dermaroll or at least exfoliate and shower before applying.

----------


## lilpauly

> lilpauly if you find the right vehicle this forum will praise you...
> 
> lilpauly's vacation fund donations on phg if you find it haha


 I'm in charge of new product development. Kane was able to get form 111 cb after I asked him,and it was tested growth factors are also going to be released, I'm on several forums and I never takee any money from any1 ever. I paid out of my own pocket so 7 people can try the growth factors to the hairline only

----------


## lilpauly

I'm working on several projects

----------


## Pentarou

> I know saying this is useless..but i hate cosmo for trailing the acne version first...we could have had cb by 2014-15 if they had trialled hair loss version first...depressing
> 
> guess we just need to find the vehicle


 Apparently it is easier to get funding and approval for acne medicines, so getting CB cleared as an acne treatment first increases the chances of the medicine being able reach the market.

----------


## lilpauly

> Apparently it is easier to get funding and approval for acne medicines, so getting CB cleared as an acne treatment first increases the chances of the medicine being able reach the market.


 Yes Man U are right something for asc j9

----------


## Conpecia

Mark I consider this and dermarolling the best thing going for us at this time. Please let us know if you find an appropriate vehicle. This could be huge.

----------


## thechamp

> Mark I consider this and dermarolling the best thing going for us at this time. Please let us know if you find an appropriate vehicle. This could be huge.


 Maybe  a hair transplant plus cb could save alot of people?

----------


## FearTheLoss

do you think there will be a major difference in vehicle and dosage for acne vs. alopecia?

it's supposed to be out in 2015 for acne right? 
and 2016 at soonest for alopecia..

they don't need a phase I safety trial, so it would be just phase II and III

----------


## yan

> do you think there will be a major difference in vehicle and dosage for acne vs. alopecia?
> 
> it's supposed to be out in 2015 for acne right? 
> and 2016 at soonest for alopecia..
> 
> they don't need a phase I safety trial, so it would be just phase II and III


 They want to finish proof of concept in early 2015. I have no idea if they have to do an phase 2b after that!? I think 2017 - 2018 is more realistic...

----------


## deuce

I got this message from Cosmo pharmaceuticals about a month ago.


Thank you for your interest on our anti-androgen CB-03-01.
At this moment the product is under clinical evaluation only for Acne, nor for alopecia. It is too early foresee the possible date of availability for sale in US and EU.
Clinical studies for the indication for Alopecia are not yet  scheduled.
kind regards.
G. Celasco

----------


## StayThick

> Mark I consider this and dermarolling the best thing going for us at this time. Please let us know if you find an appropriate vehicle. This could be huge.


 If dermarolling is the best thing going for us right now I'm telling you we are all screwed. I'm at my breaking point.

I already have a head up on most of you, I've been dermarolling for the past 3 months and if anything it helps to "possibly" maintain. Don't expect regrowth all over the place or else you are in for a big surprise. Rolling needles all over your head isn't the answer guys, but it's still worth wild to try it and in my case continue 2x week.

Honestly, I don't even know if all the money I spend and treatments I have tried and currently use even do anything at all. Sometimes I think I should just save my cash, let nature take its course, and hope the HT industry improves for a more permanent solution. The current treatments available are just terrible...

----------


## deuce

I agree with you Staythick.  It is truly depressing.  I have been coming on these forums for 3 years, and it has been the same the whole time.  People getting excited about these possible cures, but nothing ever comes of them.  People have been talking about this cb for years and nobody I have ever seen with success.  I am not trying to be negative, but how will it now make a difference if no one can get it to work?  I am not a pessimist just a realist.  Wasting my time on these forums made me this way.  **** hair loss.  It truly sucks.

----------


## hellouser

> Honestly, I don't even know if all the money I spend and treatments I have tried and currently use even do anything at all. Sometimes I think I should just save my cash, let nature take its course, and hope the HT industry improves for a more permanent solution.* The current treatments available are just terrible...*


 Tell that to the finasteride dickriders.

That shit has no place for anyone who's an NW4 or higher. Good luck reversing anything after that. And since NW4+ looks already worse than NW3 (and that looks bad too) what the fvck is the point in clinging on to an NW4 stage head of hair?

----------


## deuce

I agree houser.  So what you think man?  IS the future bright?  I heard the 1000th x stregnth Bimatropost is being tested in an accelerated phase 2 trial starting this week.  Could be good news.

----------


## hellouser

> I agree houser.  So what you think man?  IS the future bright?  I heard the 1000th x stregnth Bimatropost is being tested in an accelerated phase 2 trial starting this week.  Could be good news.


 Its not on my radar. In fact, it never has been.

Aderans was my #1 treatment followed by Histogen. Even if bimatropost has success, god knows when its made available. I've got more faith in CB right now, we'll see how Kane's form III CB fares for us. Hopefully its good. Just gotta wait a few months for some results.

----------


## yan

> I got this message from Cosmo pharmaceuticals about a month ago.
> 
> 
> Thank you for your interest on our anti-androgen CB-03-01.
> At this moment the product is under clinical evaluation only for Acne, nor for alopecia. It is too early foresee the possible date of availability for sale in US and EU.
> Clinical studies for the indication for Alopecia are not yet  scheduled.
> kind regards.
> G. Celasco


 They released a timeline earlier this year in one of their presentations where they said start of phase 2 and clinical evaluation early 2014, end of POC early 2015... 

But these two statements don`t contradict each other... 

Anyway its just too damn long away... We need it now.

----------


## optimisticyouth

> Tell that to the finasteride dickriders.
> 
> That shit has no place for anyone who's an NW4 or higher. Good luck reversing anything after that. And since NW4+ looks already worse than NW3 (and that looks bad too) what the fvck is the point in clinging on to an NW4 stage head of hair?


 You're probably right, if you're already too far gone, then there's really no point in using fin. Having said that, however, fin CAN help many people who catch their hair loss early on. I'm not sure where your hatred towards fin and its users comes from, but you act like it causes side effects in nearly everyone. That doesn't seem to be reality though.

----------


## hellouser

> You're probably right, if you're already too far gone, then there's really no point in using fin. Having said that, however, fin CAN help many people who catch their hair loss early on. I'm not sure where your hatred towards fin and its users comes from, but you act like it causes side effects in nearly everyone. That doesn't seem to be reality though.


 The hatred is toward every current option and every complacent hair loss sufferer. Its inexcusable for propecia to be the best solution to hair loss after 20 years in 2013... and we're STILL years away from a cure.

We've failed MISERABLY as a hair loss community to demand and push forward for superior alternatives. I cannot believe that in 2013 such a relatively SHIT treatment is still the #1 option.

And once a cure does come to the market, everyone will fully agree that its shit... theres NO EXCUSE for us not have a proper solution by now.

----------


## deuce

Wasn/t one of yall looking for this?

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...0-10-06_en.pdf

----------


## thechamp

> The hatred is toward every current option and every complacent hair loss sufferer. Its inexcusable for propecia to be the best solution to hair loss after 20 years in 2013... and we're STILL years away from a cure.
> 
> We've failed MISERABLY as a hair loss community to demand and push forward for superior alternatives. I cannot believe that in 2013 such a relatively SHIT treatment is still the #1 option.
> 
> And once a cure does come to the market, everyone will fully agree that its shit... theres NO EXCUSE for us not have a proper solution by now.


 Your right 2013 we all work hard have money still no cure i have come to the point I'm just going to shave my head and embrace it!

----------


## UK_

> Your right 2013 we all work hard have money still no cure i have come to the point I'm just going to shave my head and embrace it!


 Wait!!!  Dont go until you've seen this: (it might be something)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwA1ENqxI

----------


## clandestine

> The hatred is toward every current option and every complacent hair loss sufferer. Its inexcusable for propecia to be the best solution to hair loss after 20 years in 2013... and we're STILL years away from a cure.
> 
> We've failed MISERABLY as a hair loss community to demand and push forward for superior alternatives. I cannot believe that in 2013 such a relatively SHIT treatment is still the #1 option.
> 
> And once a cure does come to the market, everyone will fully agree that its shit... theres NO EXCUSE for us not have a proper solution by now.


 Amen.

----------


## StayThick

> The hatred is toward every current option and every complacent hair loss sufferer. Its inexcusable for propecia to be the best solution to hair loss after 20 years in 2013... and we're STILL years away from a cure.
> 
> We've failed MISERABLY as a hair loss community to demand and push forward for superior alternatives. I cannot believe that in 2013 such a relatively SHIT treatment is still the #1 option.
> 
> And once a cure does come to the market, everyone will fully agree that its shit... theres NO EXCUSE for us not have a proper solution by now.


 Wait!!! There's always rolling a bunch of needles on your head. The cure is right here in front of us... What are you talking about Hellouser?!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## DesperateOne

> Wait!!! There's always rolling a bunch of needles on your head. The cure is right here in front of us... What are you talking about Hellouser?!


 Well I am rolling that on my head but its painful as hell. I still don't think that will be the true cure. I will be applying some stuff while I roll. 

It is true that we should have a freaking cure by now, I am so tied of this freaking situation. Why do all those geniuses go to study physics? We needed a few of them to study hair loss, we would of had this crap beat. Why did we have mediocre scientist who are nothing but sheeple among the few researchers.

----------


## hellouser

> Wait!!! There's always rolling a bunch of needles on your head. The cure is right here in front of us... What are you talking about Hellouser?!


 The wounding theory is backed by actual science. If you want to knock it, you may as well completely dismiss Follica.

If your stance is to ignore trial and error, then I don't give a shit about your comments.

----------


## simba

Now that you have all stop whining we can get back to whats important.

I've got another question about CB, in the trials they said they're using a 5&#37; solution, but they don't state the absolute amount of CB (or solution) that they're using, will it be 5% with 1ml solution or 5ml/10ml etc?

----------


## hellouser

> Now that you have all stop whining we can get back to whats important.
> 
> I've got another question about CB, in the trials they said they're using a 5% solution, but they don't state the absolute amount of CB (or solution) that they're using, will it be 5% with 1ml solution or 5ml/10ml etc?


 Thats way to specific of a question. We don't even know the vehicle, theres no way we'd know the amount used in it.

Just think of it as minox, 1ml is typically not enough to cover the entire scalp, so if you want complete coverage, it'll probably 2ml or more.

----------


## yan

> Now that you have all stop whining we can get back to whats important.
> 
> I've got another question about CB, in the trials they said they're using a 5&#37; solution, but they don't state the absolute amount of CB (or solution) that they're using, will it be 5% with 1ml solution or 5ml/10ml etc?


 Dude this makes no sense. % is the strenght.

*1%* = *10mg/1ml*   or *20mg/2ml*   or *100mg/10ml*
*5%* = *50mg/1ml*   or *100mg/2ml*   or *500mg/10ml*

If you apply 1ml 1% cb to cover your hairline, you applied 10mg CB. If you apply 2ml 1% cb to cover your whole head, you applied 20mg CB. 

So 200 dollar for 1g CB from kane + lets assume you use 2ml 5% daily = 10 days ??? Wtf. This would be ridicilous expensive!! Its like 10x as expensive as RU.

----------


## hellouser

> Dude this makes no sense. % is the strenght.
> 
> 1% = *10mg/1ml*   or *20mg/2ml*   or *100mg/10ml*
> 
> If you apply 1ml to cover your hairline, you applied 10mg CB. If you apply 2ml to cover your whole head, you applied 20mg CB.


 This.

Although I've got a gut feeling that an ethanol/pg vehicle may work just as well *if* youre dermarolling as well. Penetration should be significantly easier, I've seen sources say that molecules with a weight of up to 10,000 dalton can pass through skin when dermarolled.

Which is interesting because this is what would allow BNP-32 to pass through skin EASILY as its molecular weight is 3,464 dalton. Would love to see results with that.

----------


## yan

Cortexolone 17alpha propionate 1g Form III from Kane: 200 dollar

How long will it last?

1ml 1&#37; daily = 100 days = 2 dollar / day
2ml 1% daily = 50 days = 4 dollar / day

1ml 5% daily = 20 days = 10 dollar / day
2ml 5% daily = 10 days = 20 dollar / day

CB is going to test 5% anhydrous solution. So lets assume you have to cover your whole scalp. That costs you 20 dollar / day. Wow, so damn expensive! 

And this is only the price for CB, the price for the vehicle is not included... But I guess 1% could give you also good results if applied with the right vehicle.

----------


## hellouser

> Cortexolone 17alpha propionate 1g Form III from Kane: 200 dollar
> 
> How long will it last?
> 
> 1ml 1% daily = 100 days = 2 dollar / day
> 2ml 1% daily = 50 days = 4 dollar / day
> 
> 1ml 5% daily = 20 days = 10 dollar / day
> 2ml 5% daily = 10 days = 20 dollar / day
> ...


 Group buys would be necessary to bring the price down.

But I think the 5% number is just a safety measure much like finasteride; its not necessary to use it at 5mg, 1mg shows the same efficacy.

----------


## yan

> Group buys would be necessary to bring the price down.
> 
> But I think the 5&#37; number is just a safety measure much like finasteride; its not necessary to use it at 5mg, 1mg shows the same efficacy.


 Exactly my thoughts. They pursue the best possible results with 5%. 
Its maybe like 23% regrowth with 1% compared to 25% regrowth with 5%. (just examples)

If you are happy with your current hair, you might be able to use 1% CB twice a week or something like that, just to maintain.

----------


## tdo

Ive been using Kane's CB form III for around a month and half now.  

Ive switched between vehicles, first using KB, PG/Oleyl, and finally now to ethanol/pg/oleyl.  PG/Oleyl did not burn or irritate my scalp but it left huge white flakes.  

Before using CB, I was seeing around 10-15 hairs while showering.  Now I am seeing around 5-10 or less.  

I cant say Ive seen any visible improvement but my hair hairloss is minimal so its hard to judge.  I have to also note that I am not sure if I am really balding.  Ive seen several IAHRS docs and only 1 out of 4 said I was balding, so I am not sure whats going on or who to believe.

----------


## hellouser

> Ive been using Kane's CB form III for around a month and half now.  
> 
> Ive switched between vehicles, first using KB, PG/Oleyl, and finally now to ethanol/pg/oleyl.  PG/Oleyl did not burn or irritate my scalp but it left huge white flakes.  
> 
> Before using CB, I was seeing around 10-15 hairs while showering.  Now I am seeing around 5-10 or less.  
> 
> I cant say Ive seen any visible improvement but my hair hairloss is minimal so its hard to judge.  I have to also note that I am not sure if I am really balding.  Ive seen several IAHRS docs and only 1 out of 4 said I was balding, so I am not sure whats going on or who to believe.


 Before CB, were you using anything else? Fin? RU? 10-15 hairs while showering is quite a low number. If youre now seeing 5-10 less, that means you typically seeing 5-10 hairs in the shower. Thats a pretty significantly low number.

----------


## tdo

> Before CB, were you using anything else? Fin? RU? 10-15 hairs while showering is quite a low number. If youre now seeing 5-10 less, that means you typically seeing 5-10 hairs in the shower. Thats a pretty significantly low number.


 Hell,

I meant that I am now seeing around 5-10 hairs while showering whereas before I was seeing 10-15.  

Ive never been on anything before CB.

Like I said in my previous post, most IAHRS docs say I am not balding while Dr. Rassman said I am.  He performed a "miniaturization" test and found no area of my scalp with miniaturized hair.  He followed up with a bulk test.  The bulk test showed that an area of my crown had slightly less density so he concluded I was balding very slowly therefore I had no miniaturized hair.  Ive had two miniaturization test done 9 months apart and still no miniaturization so I dont know what to say....

----------


## hellouser

> Hell,
> 
> I meant that I am now seeing around 5-10 hairs while showering whereas before I was seeing 10-15.  
> 
> Ive never been on anything before CB.


 Jesus, youre lucky. I'm shedding 20+ hairs while showering.

----------


## simba

> Cortexolone 17alpha propionate 1g Form III from Kane: 200 dollar
> 
> How long will it last?
> 
> 1ml 1% daily = 100 days = 2 dollar / day
> 2ml 1% daily = 50 days = 4 dollar / day
> 
> 1ml 5% daily = 20 days = 10 dollar / day
> 2ml 5% daily = 10 days = 20 dollar / day
> ...


 Isn't cb meant to be a once weekly topical?

1ml 1% weekly = 100 weeks = 28cents/day, not bad

----------


## hellouser

> Isn't cb meant to be a once weekly topical?
> 
> 1ml 1&#37; weekly = 100 weeks = 28cents/day, not bad


 I think I did read somewhere about that.... all I have on hand is this:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2qa1ld4.jpg

*NOTE:* Just got confirmation, it was once WEEKLY but it was using iontophoresis. I'd love to get my hands on an iontophoresis device that can do it on the SCALP.

----------


## yan

> Isn't cb meant to be a once weekly topical?
> 
> 1ml 1% weekly = 100 weeks = 28cents/day, not bad


 They tested it once or twice a week with iontophoresis. But iontophoresis is far more powerful than a "normal" vehicle, so I assume you have to use it more frequently. 

They apply CB daily for acne, who knows why...

----------


## yan

> *NOTE:* Just got confirmation, it was once WEEKLY but it was using iontophoresis. I'd love to get my hands on an iontophoresis device that can do it on the SCALP.


 One thing is for sure, if you get your hands on an iontophoresis device, you will see dramatic improvement! Thats a proven thing. 

CB via iontophoresis is really really powerful. Nearly 50&#37; increase in follicular density (n/cm2) in only like 2 months! Thats freaking awesome.

----------


## hellouser

> One thing is for sure, if you get your hands on an iontophoresis device, you will see dramatic improvement! Thats a proven thing. 
> 
> CB via iontophoresis is really really powerful. Nearly 50% increase in follicular density (n/cm2) in only like 2 months! Thats freaking awesome.


 Where can we get a proper iontophoresis device?

All I can find is this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rio-Second-F.../dp/B0030NL7NS

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rio-Galvanic...=iontophoresis

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/46...lift_with.html

And other similar ones on ebay, which I've heard are garbage.

But even if theyre not, how do we use an iontophoresis? Where does the CB go?

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

the price on this stuff needs to go down. jesus christ

----------


## lilpauly

Yes the price must come down its to high. 2 years ago mp treatments had it for 320 per gram so it has come down lol

----------


## yan

> Where can we get a proper iontophoresis device?
> 
> All I can find is this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rio-Second-F.../dp/B0030NL7NS
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rio-Galvanic...=iontophoresis
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/46...lift_with.html
> ...


 To be honest with you, I have no idea... :P

----------


## Conpecia

@staythick dude you've been negative as **** the past couple months, no idea what's up.

----------


## yan

edit

----------


## lilpauly

Fellas lets wait for the vehicle to made for cb, I will have the trailist for the growth factors post their progress .

----------


## StayThick

> @staythick dude you've been negative as **** the past couple months, no idea what's up.


 My bad Conpecia, it's just hard to contain my frustration with the current state of my hair and the lack of effin' options right now. I absolutely hate experimenting with my body using various powders and potions just to hope something positive can occur. It feels like nothing promising is in the works to be released soon either. Just sucks to be losing hair at this point in my life.

If there were viable options, I'd feel better...but I'm stuck rolling needles on my head and hoping CB from ID will be legit

In either case, my apologies brotha....just in one of those funks right now. I just want my hair back.

----------


## chimera

> All I can find is this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rio-Second-F.../dp/B0030NL7NS
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rio-Galvanic...=iontophoresis
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/46...lift_with.html


 Woa, that's actually pretty cheap. And I was worrying they were going to be very expensive, a couple of hundreds at least.

Do you know CB's molecular weight?, maybe a very, very hardcore sesion of dermaroller could help...

----------


## Conpecia

> My bad Conpecia, it's just hard to contain my frustration with the current state of my hair and the lack of effin' options right now. I absolutely hate experimenting with my body using various powders and potions just to hope something positive can occur. It feels like nothing promising is in the works to be released soon either. Just sucks to be losing hair at this point in my life.
> 
> If there were viable options, I'd feel better...but I'm stuck rolling needles on my head and hoping CB from ID will be legit
> 
> In either case, my apologies brotha....just in one of those funks right now. I just want my hair back.


 
no worries dude, i totally understand and i think we're pretty much all in the same boat. i think about my hair all day every day. i obsess over it. and yes, the existing treatments are really shitty and it sucks having to dump random shit on our heads or down our throats and just sit and wait, knowing we are mostly likely gonna keep losing what we have unless we get on fin or dut. but i honestly think we're inching closer and closer, and i do believe the costarelis stuff is important. i do believe that cb has good potential, and that at least SOMETHING will be here by 2015. that's less than 2 years. even if it's just a topical fin with no sides and improved donor regeneration, that's on the right path. if we can all just stop further loss without sides and then improve hair transplant yields and donor regeneration, we will at least never be *slick* bald, and surely something will come out before the end of the decade that blows all of this bullshit away. just do what you can to stop your loss. i'm gonna do some research on fighting fin and dut sides, maybe we are better off attacking this from that angle rather than ****ing with random unproven shit. just gotta keep the faith man, we're all in this together. at least you have a ton of other dudes in this forum who feel your exact pain. i know that helps me.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> no worries dude, i totally understand and i think we're pretty much all in the same boat. i think about my hair all day every day. i obsess over it. and yes, the existing treatments are really shitty and it sucks having to dump random shit on our heads or down our throats and just sit and wait, knowing we are mostly likely gonna keep losing what we have unless we get on fin or dut. but i honestly think we're inching closer and closer, and i do believe the costarelis stuff is important. i do believe that cb has good potential, and that at least SOMETHING will be here by 2015. that's less than 2 years. even if it's just a topical fin with no sides and improved donor regeneration, that's on the right path. if we can all just stop further loss without sides and then improve hair transplant yields and donor regeneration, we will at least never be *slick* bald, and surely something will come out before the end of the decade that blows all of this bullshit away. just do what you can to stop your loss. i'm gonna do some research on fighting fin and dut sides, maybe we are better off attacking this from that angle rather than ****ing with random unproven shit. just gotta keep the faith man, we're all in this together. at least you have a ton of other dudes in this forum who feel your exact pain. i know that helps me.


 fighting sides would be great I'm about to give up cause of mine

----------


## yan

> fighting sides would be great I'm about to give up cause of mine


 Did you try out a really small dose? I take 0.2mg twice a week since 4 months. Managed to maintain what I had... 

No sides and believe me, I`m so damn horny lately... :P So not even libido issues.

I had sides on 1mg / day...

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> Did you try out a really small dose? I take 0.2mg twice a week since 4 months. Managed to maintain what I had... 
> 
> No sides and believe me, I`m so damn horny lately... :P So not even libido issues.
> 
> I had sides on 1mg / day...


 I take .6 every three days I dunno how to go lower with proscar tabs. dissolve the pills somehow maybe

----------


## yan

> I take .6 every three days I dunno how to go lower with proscar tabs. dissolve the pills somehow maybe


 Well there is no reason to take proscar tabs if you take that low amount of fin. Propecia twice a week 0.2 or 0.25mg is really cheap.

----------


## Conpecia

> Well there is no reason to take proscar tabs if you take that low amount of fin. Finasterid twice a week 0.2 or 0.25mg is really cheap.


 i tried this and unfortunately had sides. i am going to switch to dutasteride because my sides were gynecomastia and i've read at least some studies that dutasteride caused less gyno than finasteride. if that fails i will return to a low dose of propecia and work my way back up, using estrogen blockers if necessary.

----------


## yan

> i tried this and unfortunately had sides. i am going to switch to dutasteride because my sides were gynecomastia and i've read at least some studies that dutasteride caused less gyno than finasteride. if that fails i will return to a low dose of propecia and work my way back up, using estrogen blockers if necessary.


 Ok try it, but from a scientific side of view, there is no reason why dut should cause fewer gyno-sides. Its simple as that: The more DHT you suppress, the more testosteron you have, the more estrogen you have in your body. Are you sure its gyno? I thought the same with 1mg / day, but I guess it was only more fat around my chest. But it sucks too to be honest. It also looks a bit like gyno.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

as odd as it is would someone sell me like 4 1mg tabs?

----------


## chimera

> if that fails i will return to a low dose of propecia and work my way back up, using estrogen blockers if necessary.


 There is a reason almost nobody uses estrogen blockers to treat finasteride side-effects. Estrogen blockers and aromatase inhibitors also cause side effects. Yeah, believe it or not, they also produce sexual side-effects...

----------


## yan

> as odd as it is would someone sell me like 4 1mg tabs?


 I would give you 4 tabs for free, but I live in europe...  :Wink:

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> I would give you 4 tabs for free, but I live in europe...


 lol no worries

----------


## Conpecia

> Ok try it, but from a scientific side of view, there is no reason why dut should cause fewer gyno-sides. Its simple as that: The more DHT you suppress, the more testosteron you have, the more estrogen you have in your body. Are you sure its gyno? I thought the same with 1mg / day, but I guess it was only more fat around my chest. But it sucks too to be honest. It also looks a bit like gyno.


 yeah it's gotta be gyno, my chest hurts like hell. constantly. and i developed big nips and sagging ... breasts for lack of a better word. but the pain is the worst, i could give a **** less about the other stuff, just lose weight, you know? but it hurts really bad, like a horrible toothache in your nip man

----------


## Conpecia

and dude, we have been wondering about the fin/dut thing. i have read a study in which gyno was less in dut than fin. 50&#37; less actually. no one knows why, we all have the same belief as you with regard to the estrogen effects of blocking dht, but the study showed otherwise...

----------


## yan

> yeah it's gotta be gyno, my chest hurts like hell. constantly. and i developed big nips and sagging ... breasts for lack of a better word. but the pain is the worst, i could give a **** less about the other stuff, just lose weight, you know? but it hurts really bad, like a horrible toothache in your nip man


 Ok that really doesn`t sound good. 

I mean you got not much other options left, so you might give dut a go. I wouldn`t, but its up to you...  :Wink:  Anyway, wish you the best if you decide to start!

----------


## chimera

> yeah it's gotta be gyno, my chest hurts like hell. constantly. and i developed big nips and sagging ... breasts for lack of a better word. but the pain is the worst, i could give a **** less about the other stuff, just lose weight, you know? but it hurts really bad, like a horrible toothache in your nip man


 
Wait a minute, if your only problem is gyno, I think there are things like tomoxifen in cream form which work pretty good for gyno, and is sides-free

----------


## Conpecia

also progesterone cream was recommended to me, but i haven't tried either. kind of sketched out about fighting side effects from one drug with another drug. really wish this CB would just ****ing work...

----------


## Conpecia

i have some letrozole as well but again i'm scared to use it because of an estrogen rebound and the side effects may be pretty bad. that stuff is powerful.

edit: actually **** it guys, i'm going to get surgery on the gyno and then i'll be able to take propecia again. it doesn't return after surgery. i'll just maintain a good weight.

----------


## yan

Btw. just a short story. One of my friends tried fin and had some minor sides. He was the only person I recommended not to use fin anymore, because he really looks like Ljungberg. :P He always shaved it kind of low, but atm like blade 1. And he looks really good. Last weekend he thanked me for my advice. He is happy now and to be honest, I envy him for being happy bald. :P 
But as I said, it largely depends on your look (headshape, tan, muscles etc...) 

I have several friends who are nearly bald, but I work in the security branch and those guys are all really self confident, muscular and everything. The shaved baldies I know are far more happier than NW 3+ who try to hide their hairloss. 

I have my biggest respect for people who just shave it short and live happy. There are also some I know which began to shave after NW2.5 and kept it really really short since then (Blade 1). I envy them, although I shave it too, but only to Blade #4-6. Never managed to shave everything down.

----------


## Conpecia

guys, is gynecomastia not supposed to hurt? doing some research on it now and realizing i might actually have a bigger issue. kind of freaked out. mine has hurt off and on pretty regularly for about a year and a half now... sometimes really bad.

----------


## yan

> guys, is gynecomastia not supposed to hurt? doing some research on it now and realizing i might actually have a bigger issue. kind of freaked out. mine has hurt off and on pretty regularly for about a year and a half now... sometimes really bad.


 It is supposed to hurt, especially if you press your nipples... But most important sign is if you start to feel hard tissue underneath your nipple, which grows.

----------


## Conpecia

> It is supposed to hurt, especially if you press your nipples... But most important sign is if you start to feel hard tissue underneath your nipple, which grows.


 ok. in all honesty it hurts much less since quitting fin this past january, but still flairs up. strangely it tends to flare up when i have acid reflux for whatever reason, like my throat and nips flare up when i eat spicy foods.

either way i think i'm gonna get surgery next month. insurance will most likely cover it if i go to my doctor and tell him it's hurting. i already did that once a year ago so hopefully that's good testimony to deal with the insurance company...

----------


## clandestine

> i have some letrozole as well but again i'm scared to use it because of an estrogen rebound and the side effects may be pretty bad. that stuff is powerful.
> 
> edit: actually **** it guys, i'm going to get surgery on the gyno and then i'll be able to take propecia again. it doesn't return after surgery. i'll just maintain a good weight.


 Conpecia; Gynecomastia can absolutely return after surgery. Please research.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

this is gonna sound so homosexual and i promise it's not lol but i have no one to talk to about hairloss and it's killing me. i can only read so much on here and share so much but i just need someone to talk to about it i think, my friends are a bunch of douche bags and don't really understand. anyone wanna chat on skype or somethin?

----------


## hellouser

> Woa, that's actually pretty cheap. And I was worrying they were going to be very expensive, a couple of hundreds at least.
> 
> Do you know CB's molecular weight?, maybe a very, very hardcore sesion of dermaroller could help...


 Molecular weight of CB is about 400-500 I think, or just slightly above 500, so more or less at the breaking point of the maximum weight.

As far as I know, dermarolling should allow molecules with a weight of up to 10,000 dalton to pass through skin.

I've mentioned this before, but if thats true, then BNP-32 would easily be able to penetrate skin as its weight is 3,464, which is no surprise why nobody got results using it with lubrajel... too heavy!

Dermarolling for CB should make it really, REALLY easy to pass it through skin. I'll continue to dermaroll myself once a week and apply CB on all days outside of my rolling session.

Hopefully I can thicken up my hair back to what it was a few years ago and maybe, MAYBE fill in the temples a little bit (a few mm and I'd be pretty excitied, this way I'd know im regrowing and maintaining and would definitely go for an HT with Gho for at least some regeneration or Pilofocus should it prove regen). I just need my temples filled in, I dont have any bald spots anywhere else, just general thinning.

----------


## SOTF

And this is one reason amongst many why it's clear to me finasteride side effects are the result of reading forum posts. 

The difference in serum DHT @ .25 vs 1 in a propecia/proscar tab is negligible. The dosage vs. it's effects are pretty flat with this drug. If you are crippled by these terrible, terrible sides, taking 1 mg you would be experiencing about the same with .25 mg.

----------


## Avacfc

> i have some letrozole as well but again i'm scared to use it because of an estrogen rebound and the side effects may be pretty bad. that stuff is powerful.
> 
> edit: actually **** it guys, i'm going to get surgery on the gyno and then i'll be able to take propecia again. it doesn't return after surgery. i'll just maintain a good weight.


 I had gyno surgery 6 weeks ago which was due to propecia. I will never touch it again after the pain effort i had to go through to get it removed. Have surgery done and just stick to cet untill something else becomes available, seems to be working for me. You will get so much more confidence once those damned lumps are removed i promise you.

----------


## clandestine

Conpecia; Gynecomastia can absolutely return after surgery. Please research this.

----------


## UK_

How does gyno not return after surgey?  Do they remove the receptors from the surrounding area?

Conpecia have you tried this?:

http://andractim.com/

List of side effects:

Hair loss  :Big Grin:

----------


## clandestine

> this is gonna sound so homosexual and i promise it's not lol but i have no one to talk to about hairloss and it's killing me. i can only read so much on here and share so much but i just need someone to talk to about it i think, my friends are a bunch of douche bags and don't really understand. anyone wanna chat on skype or somethin?


 Therapists can help if your insurance covers it.

----------


## clandestine

> How does gyno not return after surgey?  Do they remove the receptors from the surrounding area?
> 
> Conpecia have you tried this?:
> 
> http://andractim.com/
> 
> List of side effects:
> 
> Hair loss


 It can return after surgery, if stimulated. 

For example, by medication, called medication induced gynecomastia.

----------


## deuce

Hellouser when are you starting the cb?  I am a little low on funds right now so I am going to continue taking my FIN for the next couple of months.  I get a bonus at work in early October so I am gonna get it when I do.

----------


## yan

> And this is one reason amongst many why it's clear to me finasteride side effects are the result of reading forum posts. 
> 
> The difference in serum DHT @ .25 vs 1 in a propecia/proscar tab is negligible. The dosage vs. it's effects are pretty flat with this drug. If you are crippled by these terrible, terrible sides, taking 1 mg you would be experiencing about the same with .25 mg.


 Not really dude. I took 1mg daily and now 0.2mg twice a week. Thats like a 17th part of the dose.

----------


## yan

Its like 0.057mg daily. So don`t tell me anything about serum DHT etc. I know what I do.

----------


## petewete

Can everybody posting about fin, propecia or whatever continue your debate on another thread which is labelled fin or prophecia??? Stop infesting these threads with your useless info that doesn't belong here. It becomes impossible to understand and follow these new products when 20 out of 25 pages have become a heated exchange between a few of you about the same old crap. 

The moderators need to step in at some point, clean up some of these threads so they're actually relevant.

----------


## Javert

> Can everybody posting about fin, propecia or whatever continue your debate on another thread which is labelled fin or prophecia??? Stop infesting these threads with your useless info that doesn't belong here. It becomes impossible to understand and follow these new products when 20 out of 25 pages have become a heated exchange between a few of you about the same old crap. 
> 
> The moderators need to step in at some point, clean up some of these threads so they're actually relevant.


 +1

----------


## yan

> Can everybody posting about fin, propecia or whatever continue your debate on another thread which is labelled fin or prophecia??? Stop infesting these threads with your useless info that doesn't belong here. It becomes impossible to understand and follow these new products when 20 out of 25 pages have become a heated exchange between a few of you about the same old crap. 
> 
> The moderators need to step in at some point, clean up some of these threads so they're actually relevant.


 You are right, this was the wrong place... There is no possibility to delete posts?

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

my Skype is the same as my name here if anyone wants to talk about hairloss

----------


## StayThick

Emailed Iron-Dragon to inquire what vehicle they will be using for their CB-01-03 and they responded:

50&#37; propylene glycol / 50% ethanol

Just an FYI for those that are curious on what their vehicle will be. Isn't this the vehicle others have tried here and failed??

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> Emailed Iron-Dragon to inquire what vehicle they will be using for their CB-01-03 and they responded:
> 
> 50% propylene glycol / 50% ethanol
> 
> Just an FYI for those that are curious on what their vehicle will be. Isn't this the vehicle others have tried here and failed??


 lol yup. the hell are they doing?

----------


## chimera

> Molecular weight of CB is about 400-500 I think, or just slightly above 500, so more or less at the breaking point of the maximum weight.
> 
> As far as I know, dermarolling should allow molecules with a weight of up to 10,000 dalton to pass through skin.
> 
> I've mentioned this before, but if thats true, then BNP-32 would easily be able to penetrate skin as its weight is 3,464, which is no surprise why nobody got results using it with lubrajel... too heavy!
> 
> Dermarolling for CB should make it really, REALLY easy to pass it through skin. I'll continue to dermaroll myself once a week and apply CB on all days outside of my rolling session.


 According to kane, CB's molecular weight is only 402.52, which is pretty low.

You would not ned a dermaroller for the CB (I would roll regardless, just to get a stronger effect). Then I suppose our only and last problem is to find a right vehicle.

----------


## simba

> Emailed Iron-Dragon to inquire what vehicle they will be using for their CB-01-03 and they responded:
> 
> 50% propylene glycol / 50% ethanol
> 
> Just an FYI for those that are curious on what their vehicle will be. Isn't this the vehicle others have tried here and failed??


 Urgh what gimps.

Looks like ill need to buy from Kane and mix it myself.

----------


## hellouser

> According to kane, CB's molecular weight is only 402.52, which is pretty low.
> 
> You would not ned a dermaroller for the CB (I would roll regardless, just to get a stronger effect). Then I suppose our only and last problem is to find a right vehicle.


 Skin usually has a 500 dalton tolerance, 400 is much lower, some may have issues with it but I think on the scalp where skin is thinning along with the hair, it should make it fairly easy regardless of vehicle. Dermarolling should only increase absorption.

----------


## baldnotbeautiful

so its not worth buying from Iron dragon then? 

Any word on if this stuff degrades when mixed like RU does? Or is it ok to buy a pre-mixed solution like this?

----------


## Conpecia

> Can everybody posting about fin, propecia or whatever continue your debate on another thread which is labelled fin or prophecia??? Stop infesting these threads with your useless info that doesn't belong here. It becomes impossible to understand and follow these new products when 20 out of 25 pages have become a heated exchange between a few of you about the same old crap. 
> 
> The moderators need to step in at some point, clean up some of these threads so they're actually relevant.


 i mean i agree with this but wtf do you expect us to do? if someone asks why i'm considering cb and i tell them it's because of propecia sides, how am i supposed to get that info across? it's a problem of the forum's format. no pm's, no shoutbox, no way to write on someone's profile. doesn't give us many options.

i do agree that moderators should be able to come in and clean up old conversations that are off-topic. good luck getting that pushed through though.

----------


## simba

> Skin usually has a 500 dalton tolerance, 400 is much lower, some may have issues with it but I think on the scalp where skin is thinning along with the hair, it should make it fairly easy regardless of vehicle. Dermarolling should only increase absorption.


 How do I go about dermarolling with the purpose of increasing absorbtion? Do I roll and then apply the CB straight away or do I wait until the day after.

----------


## simba

> Emailed Iron-Dragon to inquire what vehicle they will be using for their CB-01-03 and they responded:
> 
> 50% propylene glycol / 50% ethanol
> 
> Just an FYI for those that are curious on what their vehicle will be. Isn't this the vehicle others have tried here and failed??


 I just realized this probably wont be a problem.

Cant we just buy some Oleyl and mix it into ID's solution?

----------


## hellouser

> I just realized this probably wont be a problem.
> 
> Cant we just buy some Oleyl and mix it into ID's solution?


 Adding Oleyl to their premixed solutions lowers the concentration of the CB dosage. Also, have they even stated how much CB theyre giving away in total at $45?

----------


## simba

> Adding Oleyl to their premixed solutions lowers the concentration of the CB dosage. Also, have they even stated how much CB theyre giving away in total at $45?


 But isn't it the absolute amount that matters, so it'll be diluted but we can just apply more (and really, even if adding oleyl makes cb half as effective, that's still better then fin)

----------


## yan

Just realised that there is a slightly newer presentation on cosmo`s website. 

Alopecia *trial amendments* due to *change in formulation*...

Next Milestone:

• POC alopecia $ 10 m (expected H1 2015)


http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/..._Road_Show.pdf - page 28 

But those points are listed under: CB-03-01 in 2012 and onwards 

This could also mean that the change in formulation happened last year.

----------


## yan

Does anyone of you expect some new informations regarding the vehicle / efficacy from cosmo? 

In my opinion, we have to wait until early 2015 to be really sure that there is a vehicle that works and shows similiar results like those from cosmo in 2011 with iontophoresis... 
Until then its trial and error... But even in 2015, I don`t think they will publish the vehicle informations. At least we hopefully know by then that it works.

----------


## adam k

> But isn't it the absolute amount that matters, so it'll be diluted but we can just apply more (and really, even if adding oleyl makes cb half as effective, that's still better then fin)


 Indeed adding more solvent will reduce the molarity of the solution and as simba said to recieve the same amount of moles of CB more of the solution must be used.

Alternatively if one has some pure CB of the correct form then this dilution problem can be rectified with a simple calculation of how much more CB to add to bring the concentration back up. Of course for this to be viable we must know the exact concentration of the existing CB by Iron Dragon.

----------


## Jazz1

Iron dragon are legit guys I bought from then the pdg2 stuff my friend who tried fin failed to maintain hair. He recently about 2 months ago started iron dragon pdg2 and all his hairloss has halted, there's couple guys in hairloss help who have had the same. I can't speak for others but I can speak for my work friend as I recommended it and he's using it with success, unfortunatly no regrowth yet.

----------


## yan

Btw. just a side information: 

Cosmo`s share price rose about 200% since 1 year. Why didn`t I buy some shares? Still no new treatment, but at least I would be rich now. :P

----------


## HARIRI

> Btw. just a side information: 
> 
> Cosmo`s share price rose about 200&#37; since 1 year. Why didn`t I buy some shares? Still no new treatment, but at least I would be rich now. :P


 You are Damn right about that yan. I wish I had extra savings to buy some Cosmo shares. CB with the right vehicle will do wonders for sure. Mamma Mia, Forza Cosmo :-)

----------


## burtandernie

Personally I think CB all panning out is way bigger and more important then anything else in the pipeline. All that other stuff just doesnt have history or results. We know androgens are a major factor maybe even a single way to completely prevent MPB forever but who knows we have never seen a strong enough androgen inhibitor. CB might be it and keeping hair cant be understated because if you keep the hair you dont need all that expensive futuristic stuff like hair multiplication

----------


## HARIRI

Here is a great explanation about CB from Iron Dragon :-)


*Cortexolone 17-alpha propionate (CB-03-01): Peripherally Selective Anti-Androgen*

Cortexolone 17-alpha propionate, also called CB-03-01, is a derivative of 11-deoxycortisone[1] with peripheral, selective anti-androgen activity. Published data demonstrate that cortexolone 17α-propionate possesses therapeutic potential as a topical anti-androgen for skin disorders such as acne, as well as androgenic  alopecia (male pattern baldness). Cortexolone boasts equal or greater safety and potentially greater efficacy compared to retinoids used to treat acne, as well as a more localized and therefore potentially safer and more effective mechanism as compared to systemic 5-alpha reductase drugs such as finasteride and dutasteride.  Though not currently FDA-approved, if FDA approval is granted cortexolone 17-alpha propionate will be the first commercially available topical anti-androgen[1].

Background and Timeline of Development

According to the manufacturer, Italian company Cosmo Pharmaceuticals, cortexolone “tightly mimics the profile of an ideal anti-androgen for topical use”[1]. The stated objective of the manufacturer is “to create a product for topical application to treat acne, male pattern baldness, and seborrhoea that does not have the side effects of products currently being taken in tablet form”[1] which presumably would include oral isotretinoin (Accutane) and antibiotics for acne, and 5-AR inhibitors such as dutasteride (Avodart) and finasteride (Propecia) for  male pattern baldness.

Five clinical trials assessing the safety and efficacy of cortexolone 17-alpha propionate in European markets have been completed with favorable results, and non-clinical early data supporting the IND (investigational new drug) application was also deemed promising[2].

Per US FDA code, each individual disease or disorder claimed to be treated by a drug will require separate applications for the drug approval process.  According to Cosmo, an IND application for acne was granted by FDA in the first quarter of 2012, with phase II escalating dose trials in process at the time of this writing[1]. While the future appears bright for cortexolone 17-alpha propionate as an alopecia drug, the IND process has not been initiated at this time; the manufacturer has stated their intent to apply for an IND for androgenic alopecia in 2014[1]. 

Anti-inflammatory and Anti-Androgenic Mechanism and Safety Profile and Rationale

Due to a common androgenic pathway between inflammatory acne and androgenic alopecia, cortexolone 17-alpha propionate is considered a promising drug for both disorders[3].  What is unique about cortexolone 17-alpha propionate is the peripheral and selective mechanism. 

Cortexolone has good penetrative properties, making it suitable for topical use, and while effective locally it is metabolized into a harmless, inactive parent compound prior to circulating systemically:

“CB-03-01’s mechanism of action is based on the competitive activity between testosterone and DHT for androgen-receptors in the skin. CB-03-01 is devoid of systemic anti-androgenic activity, in as far as it does not inhibit gonadotropins hypersecretion, and has a moderate anti-inflammatory effect. In preclinical studies, CB-03-01 was shown to be rapidly metabolized by the skin to the parent compound cortexolone, which is a physiological steroid lacking anti-androgen activity and is completely safe. CB-03-01 has also been shown to have good penetration through the skin, making it the first anti-androgen suitable for topical application.”(emphasis added)[3]

The primary supporting study around which Cosmo bases their claims regarding safety and efficacy of topical anti-androgen therapy for acne was published in the British Journal of Dermatology in 2011.[4]

There are effective anti-androgens currently available, but they are not suitable for topical use and act in a systemic manner which, due to the pervasiveness of androgen activity and androgen receptors in physiological function throughout the body, results in a poor safety profile.  As Cosmo CEO Mauro Ajani states, “drugs available for the treatment of acne are either not very effective or have substantial negative side effects”[3].

The recent manufacturer-funded studies and internal data are abundant, but there is also early peer-reviewed data that is illustrative of the comparative potency, and safety rationale, of cortexolone (CB-03-01) compared to other drugs:

“The aim of this study was to investigate the antiandrogenic activity of a new monoester of cortexolone, cortexolone 17alpha-propionate (CAS 19608-29-8, CB-03-01). Although the compound displayed a strong local antiandrogenic activity… it did not exhibit antiandrogenic activity in rats after subcutaneous injection, nor did it affect gonadotropins hypersecretion… As topical antiandrogen, the steroid resulted about 4 times more active than progesterone (CAS 57-83-0) and, when compared to known antiandrogen standards, it was about 3 times more potent than flutamide (CAS 13311-84-7), about 2 times more effective than finasteride …Its pharmacological activity seemed to be primarily related to its ability to antagonistically compete at androgen receptor level.”[5]

Androgen-Receptor-mediated Acne Mechanisms

The pathogenesis of acne vulgaris involves multiple factors, but local mechanisms mediated by androgens are known to play a significant role in the development of lesions:

“Acne is a chronic inflammatory disease of the pilosebaceous unit resulting from androgen-induced increased sebum production, altered keratinisation, inflammation, and bacterial colonisation of hair follicles on the face, neck, chest, and back by Propionibacterium acnes.”[15]

The consensus is that each factor of acne vulgaris pathogenesis is involved in a complex interplay, and the resulting dysfunction often requires a multi-prong treatment approach:

“The multifactorial nature of the pathogenesis of acne includes increased sebum production, alteration of the quality of sebum lipids, inflammatory processes, interaction with neuropeptides and dysregulation of the hormone microenvironment, follicular hyperkeratinization and inflammation maintained by Propionbacterium acnes products within the follicle”[16] 

The four primary factors – altered keratinization, bacterial colonization by P. acnes, increased sebum production, and inflammation – are often treated separately using different drugs; for example, oral isotretinoin to reduce sebum production, exogenous hormones (usually in women) to reduce androgen-receptor-mediated effects, topical retinoids or other drugs with anti-inflammatory properties, and systemic antibiotics for reduction of P. acnes colonization.

According to Lee et al, new data that shows that cultured sebum cells product inflammatory cytokines through an androgen-mediated pathway, suggesting that  “DHT may not only be involved in sebum production but also in production of proinflammatory cytokines in acne” [17].

Comparative Efficacy

In Treatment of Acne

In order to quantify the efficacy of cortexolone in treatment of acne, it was compared directly with tretinoin (Retin-A) 0.05&#37; w/v in a randomized three-arm double-blinded controlled study with parallel treatment groups[3].

The trial entailed application of either compound (or control) to the facial region of sufferers of acne vulgaris, and lasted for ten weeks and compared total counts of two types of lesions, as well as overall severity of the acne using a standardized index[3].  Evaluations of each outcome were performed every other week[3].

According to the manufacturer’s website, “preliminary data of the trial showed that CB-03-01 met all clinical end points and was clinically superior to placebo and to Retin-A&#174; in the treatment of facial acne vulgaris after 8 weeks of drug application” (emphasis added) [3].  The fact that cortexolone 17-alpha propionate not only took effect faster, but was more clinically effective than Retin-A  in a large controlled trial demonstrates that its safety and efficacy profiles, taken together, are unprecedented.

The mechanism of action of cortexolone 17α-propionate is unique and suggests an exceptional safety profile compared to systemically dosed 5-AR inhibitory drugs currently used to treat androgenic alopecia.

Cortexolone 17-alpha propionate, Androgen Receptors, and AR-Targeted Treatment of Alopecia

Compared to the recently-demonstrated PGD2 mechanism, knowledge of the effects of androgen receptor agonism is not cutting-edge; the mechanism was first mentioned in published literature in the late 1980s [7], and early off-label use of 5-alpha reductase (5AR) inhibitor drugs finasteride (then Proscar, now also Propecia) and Dutasteride (Avodart) existed in the 1990s [8] prior to the approval of finasteride labeled for treatment of alopecia in 1997[9].  5AR inhibitors prevent the local enzymatic conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone, which is 2.4-10 times more potent in its action at the androgen receptor than testosterone depending on tissue and action examined [10].  However, they also reduce serum DHT levels, sometimes drastically, resulting in potentially undesirable effects[11].

5AR inhibitors are effective to prevent hair shedding when taken long-term by men with androgenic alopecia (AGA). However, lately there have been increasing concerns as to the short-term and long-term safety profiles of these drugs, both in civil courts and in the published literature:

“Men who suffered ongoing erectile dysfunction after taking prescription drugs to treat prostate problems and male pattern baldness will be able to pursue a class-action lawsuit against the drug maker, a B.C. judge has ruled.”[12]

“The significant reduction in DFI within 3 months of finasteride cessation and continued improvement suggests a causal link between finasteride and sperm DNA damage. We hypothesize that low-dose finasteride may exert a negative influence on sperm DNA integrity, resulting in increased pregnancy losses. We suggest that in infertile men using finasteride, sperm DFI should be measured in addition to semen parameters, and a trial of discontinuation of finasteride may be warranted.”[13]

The likely primary mechanism of most or all reported side-effects not due to nocebo-type effect is systemic action of 5-alpha reductase.  When taken orally, 5AR drugs have systemic action and are in no way confined in their action to the peripheral (local) area of effect, namely the scalps of balding men.  Topical applications of finasteride preparations may reduce systemic circulation, but will not prevent this issue, since, unlike cortexolone, the finasteride gel that absorbs into the dermal layer can still be circulated systemically in its active form[14].

The androgen-receptor-mediated mechanism is upstream of PGD2, meaning that it is hypothetically possible to reduce PGD2 levels to treat baldness without interfering with androgen levels.  On the other hand, since PGD2 is likely associated in a general sense with inflammation, modulation of the androgen pathway may be an insufficient way to address baldness in some men if PGD2 elevation is caused by a pathway other than androgen receptor binding by DHT. Without more published PGD2 data, though, it is impossible to predict how future PGD2 inhibitor drugs may change the treatment landscape for AGA patients.

It is reasonable to state that the androgen receptor pathway of baldness is well-demonstrated, well-studied, and is an effective target for drug development in the interest of treating androgenic alopecia.  Cortexolone, with a distinct yet similar mechanism (competitive inhibition/receptor inactivation, preventing DHT-binding) is a major step forward in addressing the major downside to 5AR inhibition as a baldness treatment because, if approved, it may be as effective as systemic, orally-dosed 5AR inhibitors, and would almost certainly be safer."

----------


## HARIRI

Check out this link:-

8 documents about Cortexolone 17-alpha propionate (CB-03-01)

http://www.biocentury.com/products/cb-03-01

----------


## Avacfc

Quick update on this. Been on kanes CB for a little over a week now. Shedding deffo reduced. Used to run my hand through my hair of a morning and the sink would be full of hair, however im lucky if theres two or three in there at the moment.

Would be content if this just stopped hairloss but lets see if it can thicken up some of the babies. I will keep a close eye.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Quick update on this. Been on kanes CB for a little over a week now. Shedding deffo reduced. Used to run my hand through my hair of a morning and the sink would be full of hair, however im lucky if theres two or three in there at the moment.
> 
> Would be content if this just stopped hairloss but lets see if it can thicken up some of the babies. I will keep a close eye.


 How are you mixing it, the vehicle and current regime. Also, I thought the hairs one had that were bound to jump ship two weeks ago would still drop even if on fin or any other treatment. So maybe CB works really fast. I wonder if CB with the right vehicle can regrow hair after one has already used fin.

----------


## Avacfc

> How are you mixing it, the vehicle and current regime. Also, I thought the hairs one had that were bound to jump ship two weeks ago would still drop even if on fin or any other treatment. So maybe CB works really fast. I wonder if CB with the right vehicle can regrow hair after one has already used fin.


 Mixing 140mg (two weeks worth) with 14ml of pg/eth. I am using only CB and minox once a day.

----------


## burtandernie

My opinion is using this is much more dangerous then finasteride just because so many unknowns its way to early on and I question any source selling this experimental stuff, but Im sure everyone with common sense thought of that already. Maybe I can try fin for a few years until something new.

----------


## clandestine

> My opinion is using this is much more dangerous then finasteride just because so many unknowns its way to early on and I question any source selling this experimental stuff, but Im sure everyone with common sense thought of that already. Maybe I can try fin for a few years until something new.


 Yes, well, many of us can't take finasteride. So there's that.

Can. not. tolerate. fin. in. need. of. better. treatments.

----------


## hiilikeyourbeard

> My opinion is using this is much more dangerous then finasteride just because so many unknowns its way to early on and I question any source selling this experimental stuff, but Im sure everyone with common sense thought of that already. Maybe I can try fin for a few years until something new.


 just get it from trusted sources like Kane.

----------


## Sogeking

> Yes, well, many of us can't take finasteride. So there's that.
> 
> Can. not. tolerate. fin. in. need. of. better. treatments.


 Seconded!

----------


## yan

Btw. cosmo is about to finish a clinical PK (Pharmacokinetics) and a 6 month chronic tox study for alopecia in about three months. 

Pharmacokinetics:
"It attempts to discover the fate of a drug from the moment that it is administered up to the point at which it is completely eliminated from the body. Pharmacokinetics describes how the body affects a specific drug after administration through the mechanisms of absorption and distribution, as well as the chemical changes of the substance in the body (e.g. by metabolic enzymes such as cytochrome P450 or glucuronosyltransferase enzymes), and the effects and routes of excretion of the metabolites of the drug."

Parts of the study analyse: 

Liberation - the process of release of a drug from the pharmaceutical formulation.
Absorption - the process of a substance entering the blood circulation.
Distribution - the dispersion or dissemination of substances throughout the fluids and tissues of the body.
Metabolization – the recognition by the organism that a foreign substance is present and the irreversible transformation of parent compounds into daughter metabolites.
Excretion - the removal of the substances from the body. In rare cases, some drugs irreversibly accumulate in body tissue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacokinetics


So I guess we will soon know more about cb`s safety profile. I expect to hear a lot of new information on the yearly R&D Day in january.

----------


## hellouser

> Btw. cosmo is about to finish a clinical PK (Pharmacokinetics) and a 6 month chronic tox study for alopecia in about three months. 
> 
> Pharmacokinetics:
> "It attempts to discover the fate of a drug from the moment that it is administered up to the point at which it is completely eliminated from the body. Pharmacokinetics describes how the body affects a specific drug after administration through the mechanisms of absorption and distribution, as well as the chemical changes of the substance in the body (e.g. by metabolic enzymes such as cytochrome P450 or glucuronosyltransferase enzymes), and the effects and routes of excretion of the metabolites of the drug."
> 
> Parts of the study analyse: 
> 
> Liberation - the process of release of a drug from the pharmaceutical formulation.
> Absorption - the process of a substance entering the blood circulation.
> ...


 Hopefully THAT information will finally put people at ease with using CB from black market sources.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah I guess its something more, but there is a reason it takes so long to get through FDA its all important to know for safety. The idea of experimental chemicals is not a good one.

----------


## gainspotter

Is anyone yet to actually have any success with this treatment?

----------


## hellouser

> Is anyone yet to actually have any success with this treatment?


 Too soon to really know, but my shedding is down. A lot of treatments take many months before results are shown, just be patient... or at least try to.

----------


## locke999

Hellouser, if you are planning to get back on RU how will you determine if CB is working or not?

----------


## yan

With all respect to hell, but he isn`t the right person to test CB as a stand-alone-treatment and I understand him. He doesn`t have the time to wait months for potential treatments to work, so he has to jump on RU again, bcs he knows that this works for him.

He would lose a ton of hairs if CB doesn`t work, so its more than understandable that he jumps back on RU. 

I think if we would have official study results showing results, a lot more would drop fin / ru and get on cb, including me.  :Wink:

----------


## Cob984

when id he say hes jumping back on ru??

----------


## yan

> I just dermarolled yesterday seeing how last week I wasn't very vigorous with my session. I know I pressed harder this time, but I get this weird feeling that each time I dermaroll, I bleed more easily than the following week. It's been about 4-5 sessions of dermarolling and I've yet to see any positive results from using Minox and CB with it. I'm going to be ordering RU next week as well and get back on it.


 In the "Dermarolling Community Trial" Thread...

----------


## Cob984

well that sucks,
seems to me an admission that cb isnt doing much or even maintaining

----------


## yan

> well that sucks,
> seems to me an admission that cb isnt doing much or even maintaining


 Not really. He is only like 2-3 weeks on cb as far as I know. Far too early to tell anything. He just knows that RU works for him, bcs he already was months on it. I assume its too risky for him to stay on cb for months without knowing if it works or not. 

But how about asking him? :P

I think best is if early hairloss sufferers start CB, they don`t risk that much in case it doesn`t work. But if you were on treatments for years, you risk to lose a ton of hairs in 4-6 months (which you need to assess if a treatment is working or not) if the treatment isn`t working.

----------


## pat

> And we have PICS of a member who used cb + minox for a whole year, he has had good regrowth using a cream vehicle at 1% . PM lilpauly aka mark if u want to join our community and get in on our Group Buys. We can get CB for $105 per g if we get a large enough order. Everything gets tested. 1 gram will last 100 days @ 1% in a 1ml application. 2% would even be affordable at $105 per gram. We can get any research chem. SABA Gel, vitamin D analogue, RU, ect.  We are even working on getting BNP and CNP, plus a HSC alternative. We have a super organized forum with full text libraries on the latest hairloss advancements (not misleading abstracts and bro science). There are no fees, nor requirements to buy products, just rules and etiquette to keep us sufferers civilized.  PM Lilpauly, you will regret not joining us.


 This is an old post of yours but....Id really be interested in getting the Saba Gel. I don't know how or if I can PM yet though

----------


## hellouser

> well that sucks,
> seems to me an admission that cb isnt doing much or even maintaining


 I've stated countless times my shedding has decreased and that I've only been on it for about 3 weeks. You guys need to READ, it's getting really tiring repeating myself when I've made everything really REALLY clear about my regimen and timelines.

You guys do realize that even finasteride may take 6+ months to start working, right? CB shouldn't be much different in that it blocks DHT but regrowth may take a few weeks or months or many months.

----------


## cp9

Hey hellouser, I'm looking for an alternative treatment to fin (I can't take the sides anymore).. Do you reckon I should get on RU (which has worked wonders for you) or just jump straight to CB?

----------


## HARIRI

> Hey hellouser, I'm looking for an alternative treatment to fin (I can't take the sides anymore).. Do you reckon I should get on RU (which has worked wonders for you) or just jump straight to CB?


 Just jump to CB, many members had Finasteride similar sexual sides from RU. I am actually interested and ready to use it. Start with 1% CB by adding 10mg in 1ml based on Hellouser previous post.

----------


## cp9

Can I mix CB powder with lipogaine like many users do with RU? Sorry for being a bit of a newb

----------


## HARIRI

> Can I mix CB powder with lipogaine like many users do with RU? Sorry for being a bit of a newb


 I dont think so because Lipogaine is stuffed with ingredients and somehow sticky. I dont think that CB will be dissolved there. However you can mix it with plain minoxidil formula like Regaine 2% or 5% where there is plenty space for the CB. Johnnynohair is doing it successfully with his Regaine 2% and soon I will do it with my Regaine 5% but dont go more than CB 1% as it may not dissolve well. 

If you wish to go higher then better to buy seperate plain ethanol/PG vehicle like what Hellouser did.

----------


## pat

Uhhhhhhh how come the picture Kane uses for CB is actually anthrax powder  :Confused:  :EEK!: 

http://www.thekaneshop.com/media/cat...xpowder131.jpg

note the ending of the url once you click it to see the full verison

----------


## yan

> Uhhhhhhh how come the picture Kane uses for CB is actually anthrax powder 
> 
> http://www.thekaneshop.com/media/cat...xpowder131.jpg
> 
> note the ending of the url once you click it to see the full verison


 Holy shit...

That is really bad marketing! :P

----------


## DesperateOne

> Holy shit...
> 
> That is really bad marketing! :P


 Wow, now that's funny.

----------


## lilpauly

guys i tested the cb-03-01 i can post the results in this thread. i will tell kane to remove the picture lol

----------


## lilpauly

I sent her Kane's HPLC and NMR, along with drap's 3rd party test.

[her first email]
I have reviewed the data regarding CB-03-01. The compound is found to be pure based on evaluation of the HPLC chromatogram and NMR spectral data. If you need further insight into the evaluation of this data, please feel free to ask, and I will be happy to provide you with more detail regarding the identification and characterization of CB-03-01 from the data provided.
her second email]
The NMR from 'Kane' looks good. There are 34 hydrogens in the MF for CD-03-01 which all appear within the integrations of this NMR spectra at the expected ppm absorptions for their respective structural positions. It is from this observation that one can suggest not only is this compound identified, but it is pure.

Looking at the second NMR from Kane, we see the absorptions match the independent 3rd party's perfectly,

*Looks like your compound is there, and is pure. The baseline for all spectra are flat, except for absorptions, and the hydrogens integrate to the number expected, matching the molecular formula*.

----------


## lilpauly

third party test results

----------


## lilpauly

bigger shots

----------


## simba

Your the man lilpauly

----------


## Avacfc

Just a quick update on the cb front. Im coming into my third week of taking now and i have to say im getting pretty excited. I have vellues hair popping up all along the hair line which seem to be getting thicker everyday. I just hope this is a sign it will thicken existing hairs also.

I dont wanna over hype it just yet but im just being wary for any gyno signs as this is what prevents me from taking fin and ru. If/when these hairs become visable on a camera i will 100% share. Early days but fingers crossed.

----------


## pat

> Just a quick update on the cb front. Im coming into my third week of taking now and i have to say im getting pretty excited. I have vellues hair popping up all along the hair line which seem to be getting thicker everyday. I just hope this is a sign it will thicken existing hairs also.
> 
> I dont wanna over hype it just yet but im just being wary for any gyno signs as this is what prevents me from taking fin and ru. If/when these hairs become visable on a camera i will 100&#37; share. Early days but fingers crossed.


 May I ask what vehicle you're using? and are you using anything else like minox?

----------


## Avacfc

> May I ask what vehicle you're using? and are you using anything else like minox?


 Im using a 50/50 mix of pg/eth. On minox once a day on the hairless areas of my hairline only which i have been doing for the last 3 years!

----------


## Knockin on NW4

> Im using a 50/50 mix of pg/eth. On minox once a day on the hairless areas of my hairline only which i have been doing for the last 3 years!


 I hope u took before pics, even if u dont want to share them with the world. its the only way to see if its working or not. The mind can make the eye see what it wants... Oooo so deep lol. but seriously,  consistent pics are way more rational than a sufferers mind. that being said, good luck!

----------


## clandestine

Anyone dermarolling with CB besides hellouser?

----------


## Sogeking

Guys don't want ot be too demanding and I am really grateful for the information from all the guys currently testing CB, however I think it would be prudent for future testers to have blood tests done for their testosterone and DHT levels. Before taking CB, and every 1 month afterwards. 

It might be seen as being a hypochondriac but it could actually show us if anti androgens get to the blood or are they metabolised  before entry into blood stream.

----------


## yan

> Guys don't want ot be too demanding and I am really grateful for the information from all the guys currently testing CB, however I think it would be prudent for future testers to have blood tests done for their testosterone and DHT levels. Before taking CB, and every 1 month afterwards. 
> 
> It might be seen as being a hypochondriac but it could actually show us if anti androgens get to the blood or are they metabolised  before entry into blood stream.


 Do it if you want, but its not necessary. It doesn`t impact hormonal levels, thats a proven fact. Cosmo stated that fact various times, conducted european phase 1 for alopecia, european phase 1 / 2 for acne and US phase 1 & 2 clinical tests for acne and and and... You guys really want me to search and post the whole links again? I did it various times before, but ok I will do it once again if you still dont believe me lol.

----------


## hellouser

> Do it if you want, but its not necessary. It doesn`t impact hormonal levels, thats a proven fact. Cosmo stated that fact various times, conducted european phase 1 for alopecia, european phase 1 / 2 for acne and US phase 1 & 2 clinical tests for acne and and and... You guys really want me to search and post the whole links again? I did it various times before, but ok I will do it once again if you still dont believe me lol.


 That and the fact that in about a month (I think) Cosmo is supposed to release detailed safety results. That should put an end to the side effects debate.

----------


## DesperateOne

> Just a quick update on the cb front. Im coming into my third week of taking now and i have to say im getting pretty excited. I have vellues hair popping up all along the hair line which seem to be getting thicker everyday. I just hope this is a sign it will thicken existing hairs also.
> 
> I dont wanna over hype it just yet but im just being wary for any gyno signs as this is what prevents me from taking fin and ru. If/when these hairs become visable on a camera i will 100% share. Early days but fingers crossed.


 How can we know for sure that those vellus hairs are from Cb only and not something else

----------


## yan

> That and the fact that in about a month (I think) Cosmo is supposed to release detailed safety results. That should put an end to the side effects debate.


 They are going to finish a large part of the phase 1 studies for alopecia in december, so I think they will release the study results by then or wait until the R&D Day in January.

----------


## yan

To be more exactly: 

6-month MiniPig Repeat Dose Tox Study ends in december (6 mo report 12/31/13) 

6-month Chronic Tox Study ends in december 

EU Clinical PK Study - Single / Repeat Dose is about to end next month

----------


## lilpauly

btw i emailed kane about nano ru and nano cb .

----------


## clandestine

> btw i emailed kane about nano ru and nano cb .


 Please let us know what he says mark; I'm very interested, as I'm sure many others are.

----------


## simba

> btw i emailed kane about nano ru and nano cb .


 Whats nano ru/cb?

----------


## HARIRI

> Whats nano ru/cb?


 This will really help you understand about Nano:-

http://www.nano.gov/you/nanotechnology-benefits

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

maybe smaller size to penetrate easier?

----------


## yan

Just a small summary for people who ask why CB should be better than fin, ru or similar products. 

- an impressive reduction of sebacious gland size, observed in about 85% of treated subjects.
- a decrease in dermal fibrosis, indicator of inflammatory process, after treatment mainly with CB-03-01
- a reduction of vessel diameter of peribulbar microvasculature
- a reduction of inflammatory cells after treatment with CB-03-01 

You can`t simply argue with "even castrated men dont see much regrow", because CB acts on more layers.

This is old news, but still, a lot don`t know those facts. 
http://files.investis.com/csm/presen.../RDday2010.pdf - page 81 - 86

----------


## HARIRI

> Just a small summary for people who ask why CB should be better than fin, ru or similar products. 
> 
> - an impressive reduction of sebacious gland size, observed in about 85% of treated subjects.
> - a decrease in dermal fibrosis, indicator of inflammatory process, after treatment mainly with CB-03-01
> - a reduction of vessel diameter of peribulbar microvasculature
> - a reduction of inflammatory cells after treatment with CB-03-01 
> 
> You can`t simply argue with "even castrated men dont see much regrow", because CB acts on more layers.
> 
> ...


 Great info yan, Keep it up buddy. I'm waiting for my CB-03-01. I will mix it with my Regaine 5% as it already contains Ethanol + PG.  :Smile: 

Basically I will divide my 60ml bottle into 3 bottles of 20ml and add 20mg in each time. Hope this will make it work better and stay fresh. The concentration will be 1%. This will really save my time instead of applying two solutions in one day. I guess I will be 2nd member after johnnynohair who mixes CB-03-01 with Regaine  :Big Grin:

----------


## yan

> Great info yan, Keep it up buddy. I'm waiting for my CB-03-01. I will mix it with my Regaine 5% as it already contains Ethanol + PG. 
> 
> Basically I will divide my 60ml bottle into 3 bottles of 20ml and add 20mg in each time. Hope this will make it work better and stay fresh. The concentration will be 1%. This will really save my time instead of applying two solutions in one day. I guess I will be 2nd member after johnnynohair who mixes CB-03-01 with Regaine


 This sounds good, I wish you the very best for your treatment! Keep us up to date buddy!

----------


## burtandernie

I remember the company working on CB 03 01 said that it might be possible as a once weekly application. Hopefully that turns out to work well enough because it would be amazing for a sides free topical that only needs to get used once a week. Where do I buy?

----------


## Kalio

Is there anything known about the price yet if and when Cosmo brings this stuff to the market? 

Will it be roughly as expensive as buying it from Kane?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

Sucks that kane etc dont just pre-mix it....

----------


## yan

> Is there anything known about the price yet if and when Cosmo brings this stuff to the market? 
> 
> Will it be roughly as expensive as buying it from Kane?


 No. It is years away from market entry, so we don`t know anything at this point.

----------


## DesperateOne

> No. It is years away from market entry, so we don`t know anything at this point.


 Kane's nano mix should be better than the cream

----------


## pat

> kane's nano mix should be better than the cream


 i need this asap

----------


## cp9

So.. How's everyone doing with CB? Heard about reduced shedding a while back. Anything new?  :Smile:

----------


## Avacfc

Hate to be the bring the bad news but i have been on CB 1% from kane for 3 weeks now with postive signs on the hair front. 

However the last couple of days ive have been so tired and light headed. I took a days break to confirm it was CB and sure enough today i feel terrible again. It feel as though i could pass out at any moment and i cant focus on anything. Whats more im having strong signs of gyno with breast tenderness.

This is a real downer because i want this to work just as much as everybody else but im going to have to quit or reduce applications as i cant feel like this, i felt better on propecia! 

Anyone else getting this?

----------


## clandestine

> Hate to be the bring the bad news but i have been on CB 1% from kane for 3 weeks now with postive signs on the hair front. 
> 
> However the last couple of days ive have been so tired and light headed. I took a days break to confirm it was CB and sure enough today i feel terrible again. It feel as though i could pass out at any moment and i cant focus on anything. Whats more im having strong signs of gyno with breast tenderness.
> 
> This is a real downer because i want this to work just as much as everybody else but im going to have to quit or reduce applications as i cant feel like this, i felt better on propecia! 
> 
> Anyone else getting this?


 CB technically shouldn't have any sides. 😷

----------


## yan

Sorry to hear this Avavfc. Really strange. You had gyno surgery 2 months ago right? So only now you have problems again, or is it some kind of post-op-pain? 

We have to be cautious, we don't know how the vehicle affects the cb. Maybe if cb enters the blood too fast, it doesn't metabolize or something similar. Please consider that.

----------


## yan

Yeah technically there shouldn`t be any systemic side effects, but who knows. 

I repost this study: 

Phase 2 European Pilot study for acne: http://intrepidthera.com/wp-co...2011-Trifu-et-al-.pdf 

They used CB-03-01 1% cream. 

"Regarding systemic tolerability, no clinically important abnormalities were detected in any treated group in haematology, clinical laboratory, urinalysis, vital signs and other observations related to safety" 

So at least the CB 1% cream is proven to have no systemic side-effects. 

But as I said, I have no idea how important the vehicle is in regards to side-effects.

----------


## hellouser

> CB technically shouldn't have any sides. 😷


 No sides for me. Except for wicked hard erections, regular morningwood. Libido seems to be down again, but I attribute that to being very VERY busy, so no time to think about sex.

----------


## Cob984

> No sides for me. Except for wicked hard erections, regular morningwood. Libido seems to be down again, but I attribute that to being very VERY busy, so no time to think about sex.


 what about the hair?
is it atleast containing hairloss if its too early to see anything else?

----------


## hellouser

> what about the hair?
> is it atleast containing hairloss if its too early to see anything else?


 I don't know at this point, its been about a month since I've been on CB... and things aren't worse but not much better either.

----------


## Avacfc

> CB technically shouldn't have any sides. 😷


 These sides are real ive never had fatigue like it before. I just wonder if they have give me powder form finasteride instead, how are we to know? Because i am deffo seeing early positive signs with the hair.

----------


## burtandernie

I think the FDA should fast track CB 03 01 through trials its a topical how much more dangerous then finasteride could it be?

----------


## yan

Lol this will never ever happen. :P 

If a topical like RU or CB goes systemic, its way more dangerous than fin. It could potentially block testosterone in your body.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah well tell that to all the people buying it from random online sites and doing it themselves citing those early studies saying its safe

----------


## yan

The thing is, if you cant take fin, you have to try experimental and potential "dangerous" stuff. I know a lot about cb, but I prefer to wait until early 2014, when we have phase 2 acne results + phase 1 alopecia results. I think by then, we know a lot more about its savety profile.

But that said, regarding cb, I think we have more than just early studies. We are in the "lucky" situation that the cb for acne is the same, just another strength.

----------


## clandestine

> The thing is, if you cant take fin, you have to try experimental and potential "dangerous" stuff. I know a lot about cb, but I prefer to wait until early 2014, when we have phase 2 acne results + phase 1 alopecia results. I think by then, we know a lot more about its savety profile.
> 
> But that said, regarding cb, I think we have more than just early studies. We are in the "lucky" situation that the cb for acne is the same, just another strength.


 This man speaks truth.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah that could be. Maybe I will wait until then too or if I dont try propecia before then maybe propecia will work for me and just help me maintain. Its hard to find reliable places to get it though too.

----------


## lilpauly

> Yeah well tell that to all the people buying it from random online sites and doing it themselves citing those early studies saying its safe


 Well that's why third party testing is important and trusted source.

----------


## Pentarou

> The thing is, if you cant take fin, you have to try experimental and potential "dangerous" stuff. I know a lot about cb, but I prefer to wait until early 2014, when we have phase 2 acne results + phase 1 alopecia results. I think by then, we know a lot more about its savety profile.


 We'd also know whether or not it actually works in practice. Too many people on hair loss forums are making assumptions about the efficacy of CB.

----------


## simba

> Lol this will never ever happen. :P 
> 
> If a topical like RU or CB goes systemic, its way more dangerous than fin. It could potentially block testosterone in your body.


 RU yes, CB being dangerous is very unlikely.

----------


## yan

> RU yes, CB being dangerous is very unlikely.


 The studies we have seen till now suggest it is indeed very unlikely that cb is dangerous. But still, we have to be cautious in regards to experimental treatments.

----------


## The Dark Knight

Well, I finally got all the stuff together to mix the CB, I'll apply it later on this week and update this thread with any progress in a week or two.

----------


## HARIRI

> Well, I finally got all the stuff together to mix the CB, I'll apply it later on this week and update this thread with any progress in a week or two.


 Which vehicle will use? Is it Ethanol/PG? What percentage of CB are you going to use? Is it 1%? Keep us informed. Good Luck  :Smile:

----------


## The Dark Knight

> Which vehicle will use? Is it Ethanol/PG? What percentage of CB are you going to use? Is it 1%? Keep us informed. Good Luck


 
Yup, using the Ethanol and PG mix and I think I will start at 5% to test the waters and if that turns out fine, I'll try and go for the 15%. Thanks, hope this stuff really works!

----------


## pat

> Yup, using the Ethanol and PG mix and I think I will start at 5% to test the waters and if that turns out fine, I'll try and go for the 15%. Thanks, hope this stuff really works!


 15%??? Wow that seems really high

----------


## HairBane

> Yup, using the Ethanol and PG mix and I think I will start at 5% to test the waters and if that turns out fine, I'll try and go for the 15%. Thanks, hope this stuff really works!


 Isn't 15% ridiculously high for CB? I thought most people were using 1-2%?

Also didn't I bury you in a prison down a hole?

----------


## hellouser

> Originally Posted by the dark knight
> 
> 
> yup, using the ethanol and pg mix and i think i will start at 5% to test the waters and if that turns out fine, i'll try and go for the 15%. Thanks, hope this stuff really works!
> 
> 
>  also didn't i bury you in a prison down a hole?


 lmao!

----------


## UK_

> Also didn't I bury you in a prison down a hole?


 Lol I dont even wanan know what this is all about. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## hellouser

> Lol I dont even wanan know what this is all about.


 Bane & Dark Knight are characters from Batman.

----------


## The Dark Knight

> Isn't 15% ridiculously high for CB? I thought most people were using 1-2%?
> 
> Also didn't I bury you in a prison down a hole?


 I thought 15% was the desired target? If not, I'll go for 1% CB then, means it will last longer too

You did, but I managed to escape, I'd watch out for Catwoman if I were you though

----------


## pat

So we currently have the option to apply at a percentage like 1%, 3%, 5%, etc... or whatever we want.

But if there's the nano solution, which would be pre-made, what would the percentage be?

----------


## HARIRI

> So we currently have the option to apply at a percentage like 1%, 3%, 5%, etc... or whatever we want.
> 
> But if there's the nano solution, which would be pre-made, what would the percentage be?


 Do you mean that Kane Shop will sell the CB formula pre mixed with Nano solution? This is a great news. Could anyone confirm this?  :Big Grin:

----------


## chimera

> I'll try and go for the 15%.


 Are you rich?

----------


## The Dark Knight

> Are you rich?


 I wish,  I decided to go for 1% due to that and what everyone else here has said. Just made my first batch and application. My head feels a bit itchy on the hariline (where I applied it) but nothing else unusual, with RU I got a sense of instant relief and bit of tingling in my testicals, nothing here though, I hope thats a good thing.

----------


## pat

> Do you mean that Kane Shop will sell the CB formula pre mixed with Nano solution? This is a great news. Could anyone confirm this?


 and i'm only assuming it would be pre-made just like the Growth Factors nano solution is

----------


## lilpauly

> Do you mean that Kane Shop will sell the CB formula pre mixed with Nano solution? This is a great news. Could anyone confirm this?


 yes man kane is currently working on a vehicle for cb

----------


## eqvist

I´m a noob, but is it really good potential in CB?

----------


## chimera

> I&#180;m a noob, but is it really good potential in CB?


 In theory, yes. Picture a more powerful finasteride without sexual side effects...

The big problem right now is the price (at least for some of us), and also finding a proper vehicle, without it, we're ****ed deep in the ass.

Also, you could wait for CB to be released officially, but it will still take a couple of years before that happens...

----------


## DesperateOne

> yes man kane is currently working on a vehicle for cb


 I am curious, is Kane going to test if the vehicle works? If so, how?
Do you think that it will cost more than the current version?

I think that the nano approach may have some merit, let's just hope, that's all we can do. 

As much as I hate to admit it, Chimera might be right, we are screwed for now.

----------


## dan1938

If I get sides from using even 1% RU, would CB make any difference in that respect? The studies show a nearly 1% systemic absorption which I think is very similar to RU's, so why would CB be any better as far as sides are concerned?

----------


## burtandernie

No one can answer that because cosmo is studying the chemical as we speak. If we knew CB was safe in the vehicle they are using then it would be approved and sitting at a store to buy. The years of testing are to show that. In theory it turns into a harmless type of substance found normally in the body so its supposed to be safe but again no one knows if that is really true aside from the little prelim study they did showing that

----------


## TO YOUNG TO RETIRE

:Smile:

----------


## HairBeWithYou

Hey guys, I understand that CB will be released for acne treatment first and it seems like they'll be releasing something soon. Would it then be possible to just use this off-label? I understand the formulation might be different though, but it might still be effective for hair loss? Just wondering if I'm way off base or not?

----------


## burtandernie

I know everyone wants to use this off label after it comes out but the vehicle and concentration will not be at all tested or figured to work for MPB so your almost back to where you are now except you have the chemical itself I guess. It might not even work for MPB if you can get a prescription to use it off label to even try. We are going to need to still wait for them  finish the MPB version IMO.

----------


## Seuxin

Hello,

Anyone know this compagny ? 

http://koutingsales.guidechem.com/pr...73783.html#inq

Is there any progress about a good vehcle for the CB ? Because waiting 2018 is too long .... :\

----------


## dan1938

> 


 what happened with your derma rolling thread on ***, heard you got banned. How is your progress?

----------


## dan1938

I guess nothing came off it. I am amazed at the number of people who claim extraordinary success with one of those fads and then just disappear off the surface of the earth. Even if the method doesn't work, letting the rest of us know seems like the fair thing to do. Sometimes I suspect of the financial incentives that might be involved in such things.




> what happened with your derma rolling thread on ***, heard you got banned. How is your progress?

----------


## Cob984

so does anyone plan on working on this vehicle or has this been dropped now?

----------


## HairBane

Well whatever work gets done on it is going to be mostly educated guess work about how to reverse engineer this stuff. You're welcome to try buying the ingredients yourself and having a crack at it.

Just a thought, but when Cosmo eventually release the CB in acne cream form (maybe next year? they're starting phase 3 now I think), could we just switch out a few of the ingredients which are bad for hair, and up the percentage ourselves?

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah I like how the community drops the most promising things and pursues the dumbest ones like laser helmets.

----------


## hellouser

> Yeah I like how the community drops the most promising things and pursues the dumbest ones like laser helmets.


 Dalek Helmets:




[/QUOTE]

----------


## Pate

Updates from Cosmo on CB just released today.

- Phase II for acne completed in February, top line results expected in April.
- FDA has waived the requirement for a systemic carcinogenicity trial, which must mean they are satisfied there is no systemic absorption!
- $20M payment due from Valeant for the completion of Phase II milestone
- 120 patient Phase II POC trial comparing CB, minox and placebo for alopecia due to start in H2 2014, with IND filing in April.

Finally looks like some action on this front. Unlike most of these deadbeat startups like Histogen and Replicel, Cosmo is actually very successful financially so funding shouldn't be an issue. If the drug works in this trial I think there is a good chance it might be developed for sale (officially, not Chinese!).

They say it is on track for acne but slightly behind schedule for alopecia. Typical...

----------


## simba

> Updates from Cosmo on CB just released today.
> 
> - Phase II for acne completed in February, top line results expected in April.
> - FDA has waived the requirement for a systemic carcinogenicity trial, which must mean they are satisfied there is no systemic absorption!
> - $20M payment due from Valeant for the completion of Phase II milestone
> - 120 patient Phase II POC trial comparing CB, minox and placebo for alopecia due to start in H2 2014, with IND filing in April.
> 
> Finally looks like some action on this front. Unlike most of these deadbeat startups like Histogen and Replicel, Cosmo is actually very successful financially so funding shouldn't be an issue. If the drug works in this trial I think there is a good chance it might be developed for sale (officially, not Chinese!).
> 
> They say it is on track for acne but slightly behind schedule for alopecia. Typical...


 Thats great news, do you have any idea how long the Phase II trial will last?

----------


## Hair Bear

Excellent, unless I am mistaken CB-03-01 is just about the only thing on the horizon, without this it will be a huge wait too long for some of us.
It may not be the best thing to hit the market but it will be the only thing of substance.

----------


## BDDFreak

> Excellent, unless I am mistaken CB-03-01 is just about the only thing on the horizon, without this it will be a huge wait too long for some of us.
> It may not be the best thing to hit the market but it will be the only thing of substance.


 I think bimatoprost is also on the horizon. With cb, bimatoprost and pilofocus which most likely will be in practice by 2015 then we can consider a lot of ppl essentially "cured" .

----------


## Sogeking

> Updates from Cosmo on CB just released today.
> 
> - Phase II for acne completed in February, top line results expected in April.
> - FDA has waived the requirement for a systemic carcinogenicity trial, which must mean they are satisfied there is no systemic absorption!
> - $20M payment due from Valeant for the completion of Phase II milestone
> - 120 patient Phase II POC trial comparing CB, minox and placebo for alopecia due to start in H2 2014, with IND filing in April.
> 
> Finally looks like some action on this front. Unlike most of these deadbeat startups like Histogen and Replicel, Cosmo is actually very successful financially so funding shouldn't be an issue. If the drug works in this trial I think there is a good chance it might be developed for sale (officially, not Chinese!).
> 
> They say it is on track for acne but slightly behind schedule for alopecia. Typical...


 Here's hoping mate. I am stoked for this. And I like the fact that Phase II for alopecia will compare it both to minox and placebo.
Go Cosmo...

----------


## burtandernie

I think CB with a decent long term study showing it stops MPB can sell plenty by saying it prevents MPB with no sexual sides, and actually has the evidence proving its true. If it can become over the counter eventually it could sell big time.
The sexual sides and other possible problems did not help propecia with its sales

----------


## Mike K

> - 120 patient Phase II POC trial comparing CB, minox and placebo for alopecia due to start in H2 2014, with IND filing in April.


 What does H2 and IND mean? Also isn't the problem with this stuff that there isn't a good vehicle for it? Does anyone know what vehicle they are planning to use in the trials?

----------


## lilpauly

> What does H2 and IND mean? Also isn't the problem with this stuff that there isn't a good vehicle for it? Does anyone know what vehicle they are planning to use in the trials?


 Hi they might give more info next month regarding the vehicle  in quarterly update

----------


## LMS

I have full confidence in regards to CB and Cosmo being able to bring it to commercialization, unlike Histogen and those other start ups, Cosmo is a pharmaceutical company. 

This is though, its  essentially topical fin/dut without sides - if I wait before its released - even just the acne version so we can reverse engineer it I will probably be something like diffuse nw6 with recession to NW4 because I have aggressive MPB.  I don't know what to bridge these 1-2 years with... RU?  Dut made me piss like a mad man and infact Im still ****ed from it but its been only 3 days and Im getting better.

----------


## lilpauly

> I have full confidence in regards to CB and Cosmo being able to bring it to commercialization, unlike Histogen and those other start ups, Cosmo is a pharmaceutical company. 
> 
> This is though, its  essentially topical fin/dut without sides - if I wait before its released - even just the acne version so we can reverse engineer it I will probably be something like diffuse nw6 with recession to NW4 because I have aggressive MPB.  I don't know what to bridge these 1-2 years with... RU?  Dut made me piss like a mad man and infact Im still ****ed from it but its been only 3 days and Im getting better.


 I have hopes in in bim as well!!!!

----------


## Pate

> What does H2 and IND mean? Also isn't the problem with this stuff that there isn't a good vehicle for it? Does anyone know what vehicle they are planning to use in the trials?


 H2 or 2H means second half of 2014. IND is Investigational New Drug which is what they need to get approved by the FDA before they can conduct clinical trials in the US.

They have been doing a lot of work on the vehicle. They have said what the vehicle is based on but I forget. Maybe someone else remembers.

----------


## Mike K

> H2 or 2H means second half of 2014. IND is Investigational New Drug which is what they need to get approved by the FDA before they can conduct clinical trials in the US.


 Thank you. Anyone have any vehicle info?

----------


## Cob984

Pauly whats the acne vehicle bro?

----------


## deuce

Any educated guesses on hair arrival or for acne?

----------


## yan

Important quote from the recent presentation: 

CB-03-01 for acne:
"What is important to know and what has emerged from the patient that we treated in the meantime, was the *absolute safety profile of the drug* that *didnt reveal any serious adverse events treatment related*, and confirm that the product is absolutely safe."

----------


## Tenma

> Important quote from the recent presentation: 
> 
> CB-03-01 for acne:
> "What is important to know and what has emerged from the patient that we treated in the meantime, was the *absolute safety profile of the drug* that *didn’t reveal any serious adverse events treatment related*, and confirm that the product is absolutely safe."


 This is really important. It could mean they will probably jump from POC to Phase III for AGA too.

If that's the case we are only 3-4 years away from having the first topical antiandrogen.

CB and Dut should sofocate AGA for a long, long time

----------


## hellouser

> This is really important. It could mean they will probably jump from POC to Phase III for AGA too.
> 
> If that's the case we are only *3-4 years* away from having the first topical antiandrogen.
> 
> CB and Dut should sofocate AGA for a long, long time


 Waiting 3-4 years to basically halt further loss but not reverse it is pretty miserable news, many of us will be fully bald by then.

----------


## deuce

> Waiting 3-4 years to basically halt further loss but not reverse it is pretty miserable news, many of us will be fully bald by then.


 
That is true.  This stuff sucks.  I had to quit again after trying it for the third time with sides.  WTF is it ever gonna get better. I mean damn why could not they do Acne last.

----------


## Tenma

> Waiting 3-4 years to basically halt further loss but not reverse it is pretty miserable news, many of us will be fully bald by then.


 Havent you consider Fin or Dut? And it depends. If you are at the 2-3 nw level cb, dut and something like Pilofocus will change the game for good.

Also keep in mind that new stuff will be released in the mid-term.

I have high hopes in RestorGenex to succeed with their promising topical estrogen-antiandrogen plan.

----------


## Cob984

Can some tell me the damn acne vehicle,
is it out? i need to try something else besides eth/pg

----------


## lilpauly

> Can some tell me the damn acne vehicle,
> is it out? i need to try something else besides eth/pg


 Desmond posted a better version . He found it on Cosmo presrntaion last year , u do not want the acne cream it contains ingredients that will be no good such as mineral oil , these ingredients don't penetrate the hair shaft only clog it

----------


## Cob984

are you referring to the vehicle he posted with 20 different ingredients? did anyone even try that?

----------


## lilpauly

> are you referring to the vehicle he posted with 20 different ingredients? did anyone even try that?


 It was like 8 or so, Cosmo might release the vehicle that they will be using in the next presentation in 2 weeks , we know its a gel, we know they are checking to see if the cb is stable in the gel ,

----------


## HairBane

> Desmond posted a better version . He found it on Cosmo presrntaion last year , u do not want the acne cream it contains ingredients that will be no good such as mineral oil , these ingredients don't penetrate the hair shaft only clog it


 I'm pretty sure you're confused. AFAIK Cosmo have NEVER released any vehicle information, acne or AA.

The vehicle Desmond suggested was from a hirsutism cream called Vaniqa which targets the dermal papilla, hence why he thinks it might be able to deliver CB to the correct area, with slight modifications to avoid clogging hair shafts.

----------


## lilpauly

> I'm pretty sure you're confused. AFAIK Cosmo have NEVER released any vehicle information, acne or AA.
> 
> The vehicle Desmond suggested was from a hirsutism cream called Vaniqa which targets the dermal papilla, hence why he thinks it might be able to deliver CB to the correct area, with slight modifications to avoid clogging hair shafts.


 Hi friend Cosmo did use 4 different vehicles for acne I will post them later tonight when u get home . 4 vehicles for the different forms  of cb ,

----------


## HairBane

> Hi friend Cosmo did use 4 different vehicles for acne I will post them later tonight when u get home . 4 vehicles for the different forms  of cb ,


 Alright, thanks.

----------


## cichlidfort

Is anyone actually confident that someone will find a vehicle before the actual legitimate CB comes out in 2017/18? If someone does find a working vehicle for CB they better announce it and spread the news like wild fire.

----------


## hellouser

> Is anyone actually confident that someone will find a vehicle before the actual legitimate CB comes out in 2017/18? If someone does find a working vehicle for CB they better announce it and spread the news like wild fire.


 It'll spread like wildfire on its own, don't worry about that.

----------


## Mike K

> Waiting 3-4 years to basically halt further loss but not reverse it is pretty miserable news, many of us will be fully bald by then.


 Hellouser are you no longer holding ground with RU? Your RU log is very encouraging and I plan to follow your RU user guide when Fin loses effectiveness or if the sides get worse. It seemed you were having excellent results with it from your previous posts. Do you not think you could hold ground with it until CB is commercial in a well researched vehicle?

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser are you no longer holding ground with RU? Your RU log is very encouraging and I plan to follow your RU user guide when Fin loses effectiveness or if the sides get worse. It seemed you were having excellent results with it from your previous posts. Do you not think you could hold ground with it until CB is commercial in a well researched vehicle?


 Every guy will probably hold ground with CB. It's a direct DHT inhibitor at the follicle level, none of that systemic crap... some guys don't even respond to finasteride (Dan26 for example).

----------


## Mike K

Isn't that the benefit of RU though? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what exactly makes this better than RU? Is it stronger or something?

I guess what I mean is, isn't RU supposed to be not systematic? Isn't that why you used it instead of Fin?

----------


## hellouser

> Isn't that the benefit of RU though? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what exactly makes this better than RU? Is it stronger or something?
> 
> I guess what I mean is, isn't RU supposed to be not systematic? Isn't that why you used it instead of Fin?


 RU can and for some DOES give the same side effects as Finasteride. CB is more effective without the sides.

----------


## Mike K

Ok cool thank you. You mentioned that you were using CB also in your RU usage guide, do you think you saw results from that, was it all the RU, or is it hard to say since you were using them at the same time? Just curious.

----------


## strife91

i believe wounding works but needs to be done properly , i have seen a dermarolling thread with amazing results no minox or anything. he went all out though

----------


## hellouser

> Ok cool thank you. You mentioned that you were using CB also in your RU usage guide, do you think you saw results from that, was it all the RU, or is it hard to say since you were using them at the same time? Just curious.


 Didn't see results. Haven't been on CB in about 3 months. I'll be restarting soon.

----------


## Mike K

Well that's discouraging. I really hope this CB thing turns out to be everything were hoping for.

----------


## hellouser

> Well that's discouraging. I really hope this CB thing turns out to be everything were hoping for.


 It was the incorrect vehicle anyway, I wouldn't be too discouraged.

----------


## Mike K

What vehicle will you be using this time around?

----------


## doke

We do not know whether cb is any better than spiro cream 5% as i use this alongside kanes ru premade and minoxidil 15% and getting regrowth forgot to mention the igrow which i will not be without.

----------


## HairBane

> We do not know whether cb is any better than spiro cream 5% as i use this alongside kanes ru premade and minoxidil 15% and getting regrowth forgot to mention the igrow which i will not be without.


 most of us do not use spiro because we dont want to turn into women cb is supposed to have no side effects yet be as effective if not more effective than all of the current anti androgens which are guaranteed to go systemic and **** you up and make you grow tits we want cb so we can maintain our hair whilst still being men

----------


## efedrez

> RU can and for some DOES give the same side effects as Finasteride. CB is more effective without the sides.


 I'm considering RU since fin is giving me sides but since your are mentioning that RU can give you the same sides, I'm curious about why did you decided to go with RU, which is still an experimental drug and much more complicated to mix than simply taking fin

----------


## doke

spiro 5% cream has never caused me any problems oral may but its been out a long time for acne as well.

----------


## Mike K

> i believe wounding works but needs to be done properly , i have seen a dermarolling thread with amazing results no minox or anything. he went all out though


 Any chance you could tell me where I could find this thread? I know that we can't post links but maybe which site and what user it was so I can go there and search? I'd like to see it if possible.



> We do not know whether cb is any better than spiro cream 5% as i use this alongside kanes ru premade and minoxidil 15% and getting regrowth forgot to mention the igrow which i will not be without.


 That's a lot of stuff. Do you have any pics of your progress? Also, where do you get 15% minox? Dr. Klein?



> most of us do not use spiro because we dont want to turn into women cb is supposed to have no side effects yet be as effective if not more effective than all of the current anti androgens which are guaranteed to go systemic and **** you up and make you grow tits we want cb so we can maintain our hair whilst still being men


 This is what is stopping me from adding spiro topical or oral. I'm all for lowering DHT but I don't like the idea of lowering test entirely. Plus I heard it smells bad.

----------


## doke

> Any chance you could tell me where I could find this thread? I know that we can't post links but maybe which site and what user it was so I can go there and search? I'd like to see it if possible.
> 
> 
> That's a lot of stuff. Do you have any pics of your progress? Also, where do you get 15% minox? Dr. Klein?
> 
> 
> This is what is stopping me from adding spiro topical or oral. I'm all for lowering DHT but I don't like the idea of lowering test entirely. Plus I heard it smells bad.


 hi i use dualgen 15% sensitive formula.

----------


## simba

> I'm considering RU since fin is giving me sides but since your are mentioning that RU can give you the same sides, I'm curious about why did you decided to go with RU, which is still an experimental drug and much more complicated to mix than simply taking fin


 Using fin at 0.25mg ed killed my penis within 10 days (went totally back to normal 3-4 days after stopping).

Ive been at 1ml RU @5% ed for 3 months now (and one year of minox) with decent results and no sides at all. I really need to make a log of it.

----------


## burtandernie

Im curious to just see some studies or results on CB long term how it does in terms of preventing or stopping MPB or maybe how it does in the front verses the crap we have now where even propecia fails at the front. Is the sensitivity at the front and temples like a mature hairline from T or the DHT left over from propecia? CB might provide the answers. If its side free and ends up working well and gets finished its a dream product for sure at least as big as propecia was.

----------


## lilpauly

> Im curious to just see some studies or results on CB long term how it does in terms of preventing or stopping MPB or maybe how it does in the front verses the crap we have now where even propecia fails at the front. Is the sensitivity at the front and temples like a mature hairline from T or the DHT left over from propecia? CB might provide the answers.


 Who says propecia doesnt work on front ? Who says Minox doesn't work on hairlines? I suggest u look at the studies again it was NEVER tested on the hairlines . Also all the information you are asking has been presented in countless Cosmo presentations

----------


## kobefan234

> spiro 5% cream has never caused me any problems oral may but its been out a long time for acne as well.


 do you use this product ?

----------


## burtandernie

> Who says propecia doesnt work on front ? Who says Minox doesn't work on hairlines? I suggest u look at the studies again it was NEVER tested on the hairlines . Also all the information you are asking has been presented in countless Cosmo presentations


 Propecia does have studies on the front showing it works, but it doesnt work as well there as it does in other places. Many men still get mature hairlines even on propecia or get some slight recession over many years on propecia. So why that difference or why do some men continue losing hair even on propecia when it doesnt work? CB might have answers there.
There are more studies to be done on CB or it would be approved already it seems.

----------


## WashedOut

Is CB the real deal when it comes to stopping future loss? It would be a shame to wait 4 years to see it's not much more effective than other stuff we have now.

----------


## doke

> do you use this product ?


 hi i do not use the liquid spiro although i do still have the one in your picture but it smelt too strong so i used the cream instead which also has caffein in.
I stopped spiro now and am on 5% ru premix from anagen which has no smell and once a day at night 2mls of minox.

----------


## kobefan234

doke- yes the smell is terrible with liquid spiro. i also have the cream although i don't know if its working or not.

i apply it to the temple areas.

----------


## doke

> doke- yes the smell is terrible with liquid spiro. i also have the cream although i don't know if its working or not.
> 
> i apply it to the temple areas.


 not much smell to ru58841 which is good and its better than spiro.

----------


## burtandernie

> Is CB the real deal when it comes to stopping future loss? It would be a shame to wait 4 years to see it's not much more effective than other stuff we have now.


 Too early to say. Contrary to what many others on here think CB 03 01 is an entirely experimental chemical that is not close to fully studied. Its anyone guess what it could do or how well it works. In theory its a powerful AA with a small preliminary study they did showing it works twice as well as propecia.
I dont want to wait 3 or 4 years, but using it now is questionable at best and not indicative of any possible results when it eventually does come out. Its not out yet to buy because of many good reasons

----------


## doke

An article by john ertel at regrowth com many years ago stated that ru58841 was the mother of all antiandrogens and without side effects and its as strong as flutamide and stronger than finasteride but topical application.
So is it stronger than cb 01 03 it maybe?

----------


## simba

> Too early to say. Contrary to what many others on here think CB 03 01 is an entirely experimental chemical that is not close to fully studied. Its anyone guess what it could do or how well it works. In theory its a powerful AA with a small preliminary study they did showing it works twice as well as propecia.
> I dont want to wait 3 or 4 years, but using it now is questionable at best and not indicative of any possible results when it eventually does come out. Its not out yet to buy because of many good reasons


 The chemicals CB-03-01 degrades into are well known to be safe.

----------


## Tenma

> An article by john ertel at regrowth com many years ago stated that ru58841 was the mother of all antiandrogens and without side effects and its as strong as flutamide and stronger than finasteride but topical application.
> So is it stronger than cb 01 03 it maybe?


 
I think CB is a bit stronger,  but cant tell you for sure. There is one paper discussing the antiandrogenic activity of the drug. if someone can find it that would be great.

Here is the abstract of the study we need to read:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646372

----------


## doke

> I think CB is a bit stronger,  but cant tell you for sure. There is one paper discussing the antiandrogenic activity of the drug. if someone can find it that would be great.
> 
> Here is the abstract of the study we need to read:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646372


 many thanks for the link tenma i notice that ru58842 is mentioned on this site but ru myristat i wonder why the premix ru does not use that?

----------


## cichlidfort

Is anyone confident that we'll find a working vehicle soon for CB before it's actually suppose to come out?

----------


## joely

> Is anyone confident that we'll find a working vehicle soon for CB before it's actually suppose to come out?


 When is it suppose to come out?

----------


## simba

> Is anyone confident that we'll find a working vehicle soon for CB before it's actually suppose to come out?


 People are waiting to see what Cosmo are using in trials, so hopefully well get it before Cosmo release it commercially.

----------


## HairBane

There are probably already vehicles out there that work for CB. They're just not (a) optimal or (b) user-friendly.

----------


## deuce

Do companies release the vehicles for their products while they are in phase 1 testing?

----------


## burtandernie

Why would a company release the vehicle at all? Doesnt seem like telling everyone like competition what vehicle they use is a good idea to me. Loose lips sink ships it applies to almost everything where giving information can harm you. I dont know what benefit they gain from telling anyone that specific info.

----------


## HairBane

> Why would a company release the vehicle at all? Doesnt seem like telling everyone like competition what vehicle they use is a good idea to me. Loose lips sink ships it applies to almost everything where giving information can harm you. I dont know what benefit they gain from telling anyone that specific info.


 If they were to release any info regarding the vehicle, it would most likely be just a snippet, perhaps one line in amongst the vast documentation and presentations disseminating information about the ongoing trials. Something like "a such-and-such based vehicle will be used for phase I alopecia trials", rather than some exhaustive ingredients list. But who knows, really? Our best bet is just logically deducing a decent working vehicle until we get an official one. There are some theoretical options already.

----------


## jason1001

> When is it suppose to come out?


 Im also curious about the release date

----------


## hellouser

> Im also curious about the release date


 2016 was their initial projected date. It's been pushed back at least another year. Cosmo is focusing more on their acne product because the dozens of treatments for acne already on the market are not enough.

2018 is the more likely release date of CB. Good news, right?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## burtandernie

Four years is a long long time. You really could not log into this forum for a year and probably not miss a single thing. Most of the stuff on this forum is many years away so almost all of it is endless speculation or about the frequent snake oil that pops up out of nowhere.
Maybe I need to bite the bullet and try propecia. I dont think 4 years is a length of time I can wait.

----------


## cichlidfort

> 2016 was their initial projected date. It's been pushed back at least another year. Cosmo is focusing more on their acne product because the dozens of treatments for acne already on the market are not enough.
> 
> 2018 is the more likely release date of CB. Good news, right?


 For a lot of us, it's terrible news. But in the general big picture of balding, it's awesome. In 3-4 years we'll have something that will knock hairloss in the teeth. In theory, CB is a 1000 times better than fin because of the no sides and efficacy of it.

----------


## hellouser

> For a lot of us, it's terrible news. But in the general big picture of balding, it's awesome. In 3-4 years we'll have something that will knock hairloss in the teeth. In theory, CB is a 1000 times better than fin because of the no sides and efficacy of it.


 If its really 4 years, perhaps less if Cosmo gets the acne product out and we figure out the damn vehicle, I could opt for an HT today, get my hair back, keep using RU and Minox to stabilize, potentially even microdose on Fin and I could keep what I got until then.

I'd hope Cosmo isn't incompetent like Aderans or Histogen when it comes to projections though... but they've already pushed back by a couple years so really, my expectations are very low for them.

----------


## cichlidfort

> If its really 4 years, perhaps less if Cosmo gets the acne product out and we figure out the damn vehicle, I could opt for an HT today, get my hair back, keep using RU and Minox to stabilize, potentially even microdose on Fin and I could keep what I got until then.
> 
> I'd hope Cosmo isn't incompetent like Aderans or Histogen when it comes to projections though... but they've already pushed back by a couple years so really, my expectations are very low for them.


 I understand the frustrations with hairloss can cloud our judgement with expectations of new releases. Hopefully 3-4 years is the actually timeline. But I'm unsure of HT. Once you get the implanted hair, will it stay there for life, like the DHT resistant hair on the back of our heads?

----------


## kobefan234

> If its really 4 years, perhaps less if Cosmo gets the acne product out and we figure out the damn vehicle, I could opt for an HT today, get my hair back, keep using RU and Minox to stabilize, potentially even microdose on Fin and I could keep what I got until then.
> 
> I'd hope Cosmo isn't incompetent like Aderans or Histogen when it comes to projections though... but they've already pushed back by a couple years so really, my expectations are very low for them.


 its always x amount of "years" away. I'll believe it when I can comb it.

----------


## Auld Reekie

> For a lot of us, it's terrible news. But in the general big picture of balding, it's awesome. In 3-4 years we'll have something that will knock hairloss in the teeth. In theory, CB is a 1000 times better than fin because of the no sides and efficacy of it.


 Is it 1000 times better than RU? I thought RU was a side-free (or at least vastly reduced sides) topical alternative to finasteride. Isn't it?

----------


## jason1001

Is Ru out now? 
I never see much people posting about it.

----------


## cichlidfort

> Is Ru out now? 
> I never see much people posting about it.


 ...because you're not looking.

----------


## Potm22

Would love to give CB a try after i used RU for at least a few months. 
Is there a "common" statement yet on what ppl that used it already BELIEVE to be the best vehicle? So that i know what i should use.

Also does anyone know a decent blog or sth of someone reporting his CB results and maybe giving some advice that helps noobs like me getting started? for ru the Hellouserthread(god bless him) was obv a lifesaver, was hoping that there is sth similar for CB around? havent found anything while googling  :Frown:

----------


## burtandernie

How many human studies were done with RU? I find it hard to believe they tested RU in humans and then after seeing how well it worked they decided there was not enough money so they shelved it or couldnt find a partner for it.
I just dont think it works, it has sides, its too large a molecule, it doesnt penetrate well enough or one of a hundred other technical reasons it doesnt work. So then every guy on here sees what he wants as he uses it along with other treatments and we never know whether it really works or not. Its a big crap shoot and its silly. I guess if your desperate though its worth a shot. Hopefully it has no sides.

----------


## hellouser

> How many human studies were done with RU? I find it hard to believe they tested RU in humans and then after seeing how well it worked they decided there was not enough money so they shelved it or couldnt find a partner for it.
> I just dont think it works, it has sides, its too large a molecule, it doesnt penetrate well enough or one of a hundred other technical reasons it doesnt work. So then every guy on here sees what he wants as he uses it along with other treatments and we never know whether it really works or not. Its a big crap shoot and its silly. I guess if your desperate though its worth a shot. Hopefully it has no sides.


 The same should be asked about NEOSH and Aderans.

----------


## Potm22

> How many human studies were done with RU? I find it hard to believe they tested RU in humans and then after seeing how well it worked they decided there was not enough money so they shelved it or couldnt find a partner for it.
> I just dont think it works, it has sides, its too large a molecule, it doesnt penetrate well enough or one of a hundred other technical reasons it doesnt work. So then every guy on here sees what he wants as he uses it along with other treatments and we never know whether it really works or not. Its a big crap shoot and its silly. I guess if your desperate though its worth a shot. Hopefully it has no sides.


 Judging by experiences from ppl who already tried it, severe sides seem really rare. And yes there might be a slight chance there are "hidden" longterm sides. But still, if theres a product that gives me a 1% chance of stopping my hairloss, i will alwaaaaays give it a try, even if it would cost me 1000$ per g or whatever. Guess ppl just got different views on that kind of stuff, which is perfectly fine.

----------


## jason1001

The problem is what if it doesn't come out in 4 years or by the time it does you've lost all your hair.

----------


## maomao

I've been reading the presentations on this - and one question.

Have they even used a chemical vehicle for the alopecia treatment? I only see mention of the iontophoresis.

If not - does this mean they are also still trying to work one out? (Or did I miss something somewhere?)

----------


## breakbot

> I've been reading the presentations on this - and one question.
> 
> Have they even used a chemical vehicle for the alopecia treatment? I only see mention of the iontophoresis.
> 
> If not - does this mean they are also still trying to work one out? (Or did I miss something somewhere?)


 Nobody knows if they found for the alopecia version the right vehicle  although they are working on a lotion by cosmo's presentation.
Iontophoresis was used in European trials.
It is very difficult to achieve the iontophoresis results anyway, but this doesn't mean they will have no success.
Sorry for my English.

----------


## burtandernie

I know a long time is the right answer, but what year does the timeline predict this is going to come out?

----------


## lilpauly

> Nobody knows if they found for the alopecia version the right vehicle  although they are working on a lotion by cosmo's presentation.
> Iontophoresis was used in European trials.
> It is very difficult to achieve the iontophoresis results anyway, but this doesn't mean they will have no success.
> Sorry for my English.


 They actually trying a gel formula right now in trials

----------


## jjo

> They actually trying a gel formula right now in trials


 
how do you know?

----------


## lilpauly

> how do you know?


 Hi man it was in the Cosmo presrntaion

----------


## jjo

> Hi man it was in the Cosmo presrntaion


 do you know more about it than most people?

----------


## maomao

> They actually trying a gel formula right now in trials


 I can't find any reference to that, which presentation was it in?  :Smile: 

So this also means then, that they don't even know it will work in a chemical solution - as all the results are only about iontophoresis?

----------


## Pate

> I can't find any reference to that, which presentation was it in? 
> 
> So this also means then, that they don't even know it will work in a chemical solution - as all the results are only about iontophoresis?


 Correct. This is the first human phase 2 trial to use a topical solution.

As for the vehicle, all I have seen them say is it's anhydrous, which means not water based. The acne treatment is cream based.

Anhydrous is not very informative as it covers a wide range of possibilities as to what the primary ingredients are.

----------


## deuce

I think they release results at their quarterly report.  I am pretty sure it is at the end of this month.  Man we really need this soon.  Especially now that it does not look like there will be a full blown cure for a while.

----------


## TravisB

It better not fail, because if it fails we're ****ed.

It's our only chance for a better treatment in the near future.

The good thing is that CB-03-01 comes from well estabilished company - Cosmo Pharmaceuticals. They already managed to succesfully release several drugs on the market.

Also, CB will be licensed worldwide to another big pharma company - Valeant, so it's likely that Valeant knows that it works so they bought the rights and are pumping cash into research.

This is the latest statement about CB-03-01 from Cosmo (from March 27th 2014):




> CB-03-01
> Together with Intrepid Therapeutics we initiated the dose escalating phase II
> trial for acne. The trial is progressing as planned and is expected to end in the
> first half of 2014 with the end of phase III meeting scheduled late in the second
> half.
> 
> During 2013 we completed additional formulation and stability tests for
> CB-03-01 lotion for the treatment of alopecia. In late Q4 we had a pre IND meeting with the FDA with no additional requests being filed by the regulator. The proof of concept trial is scheduled to be started in the first half of 2014.


 They will end (or have already ended) Phase II acne trials in H1 2014, and will probably start phase III in H2 2014, or 2015. So I think we can expect CB for acne on the market in 2017-2018. I wonder if acne cream will work for MPB?

Also, they plan to start (or have already started) Proof of Concept (also known as Phase I/IIa I believe) trial for alopecia in H1 2014. They say that they will be testing lotion CB in lotion for alopecia, so they already have some vehicle for it. 

So if everything goes well, I think we'll have acne version on the shelves in 2017-2018, and MPB version 2-3 years later (or faster if CB will prove to be safe for acne, and maybe they will be able to speed up the process).

So 2020-2021 is probably when we'll have CB for MPB.

Well, I know that 6-7 years is not that near at all, but it's still better than to wait decades for promised "cures".

----------


## Allowme

I can't hold off any longer. I am going to go with 5% cb once a week. Does anyone have a recommendation for a vehicle? How harsh is oleyl? I'm thinking of 9:1 oleyl and pg. Also, should I mention that I am going use cb to my doctor? Will I be ridiculed and forced to be on propecia instead?

----------


## Seuxin

Hello,


5% once a week ? It's a bad idea....
You need to use 5% / Day.

----------


## Allowme

> Hello,
> 
> 
> 5% once a week ? It's a bad idea....
> You need to use 5% / Day.


 As far as I know, cosmo study showed cb is good for a week? Are you suggesting daily usuage because cosmo used iontophoresis? But isn't cosmo also developing topical cb that you only have to use once a week? I don't know what vehicle cosmo is using, but I doubt efficacy is so far off from the study. Perhaps twice a week? I know nothing of chemistry though. I cant afford daily use of cb 5%. In that case I will have to try ru instead. Please let me know what you guys think.

----------


## lilpauly

Cosmo is giving a update in a week, right now I would not purchase cb because if the expense , ha e u considered find and Minox?

----------


## Allowme

> Cosmo is giving a update in a week, right now I would not purchase cb because if the expense , ha e u considered find and Minox?


 I could hold off for another week I suppose. I feel iffy about fin and minox though. The whole systemic thing and minox's effect on the heart.

----------


## lilpauly

> I could hold off for another week I suppose. I feel iffy about fin and minox though. The whole systemic thing and minox's effect on the heart.


 Don't be so foolish , jump on fin and Minox first

----------


## Allowme

> Don't be so foolish , jump on fin and Minox first


 I am wary of minox due to family history. Some of those studies on minox and the heart sound worrisome. And it also sounds as though minox gains hair cosmetically not actually combatting androgen alopecia. I can't tell if I am being irrational or not due to sudden of hair loss. I am more convinced of trying cb than fin. Sorry for straying away from topic. All your inputs are appreciated. I spent so much tine reading through the forum I am having hard time digesting the info and decide what is the best course of action.

----------


## deuce

My advice if you are worried about fin would see a cardiologist. Preferably someone who is familiar with your family history, and talk to him about minoxidil for you. As for the fin goes all you can do is try it. More people do not get sides than those who do.

----------


## hellouser

Good news:

ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier:	 NCT01631474
Study Title:	 A *Phase 2* Dose Escalating Study to Evaluate the Safety and Efficacy of CB-03-01 Cream in Subjects With Facial Acne Vulgaris
First Received:	 June 27, 2012
Last Updated:	 May 29, 2014

Source:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/archive/NCT01631474
http://clinicaltrials.gov/archive/NC..._05_29/changes

Looks like Phase II trials are done.

----------


## breakbot

> Good news:
> 
> ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier:	 NCT01631474
> Study Title:	 A *Phase 2* Dose Escalating Study to Evaluate the Safety and Efficacy of CB-03-01 Cream in Subjects With Facial Acne Vulgaris
> First Received:	 June 27, 2012
> Last Updated:	 May 29, 2014
> 
> Source:
> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/archive/NCT01631474
> ...


 How long does phase 3 lasts?

----------


## hellouser

> How long does phase 3 lasts?


 God knows.... but couldn't this stuff hit the market already in Asia? I'd buy the stuff by the cases...

----------


## breakbot

> God knows.... but couldn't this stuff hit the market already in Asia? I'd buy the stuff by the cases...


 Finally some good news, i hope that it'll work somehow even the acne version.
If we could find out the vehicle they use....

----------


## hgs1989

> God knows.... but couldn't this stuff hit the market already in Asia? I'd buy the stuff by the cases...


 I contacted replicel about early release in asia due to new rules by japan. bottom line is  replicel expects to release their product early in asia. I cant think of a reason why cb won't be there sooner, not to mention others. evry body will be cashing in there.  I really hope the west catches up. pretty sure europe will, but the US is a whole different story.if it becomes profitable in japan, big companies here will be influencing the FDA to do the same.

----------


## joachim

shouldn't we try to contact cosmo and ask if an early release in asia is an option?
i mean, 2 phases are really enough to see safety and efficiency, so why not throw it on the market already and make some cash? at least they could sell it off-label or under a different name if they are afraid of some marketing complications or whatever. 

would be worth a try, there's nothing to lose... is someone already in contact with them by email?

----------


## tommy e

> Good news:
> 
> ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier:	 NCT01631474
> Study Title:	 A *Phase 2* Dose Escalating Study to Evaluate the Safety and Efficacy of CB-03-01 Cream in Subjects With Facial Acne Vulgaris
> First Received:	 June 27, 2012
> Last Updated:	 May 29, 2014
> 
> Source:
> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/archive/NCT01631474
> ...


 Acne PII trials are done, but what about AA? 
I can't find the Cosmo's presentation of the recent conference in NY.

----------


## Samsonite

Could this be the the compound of CB cream:

excipients of CB-03-01 1&#37; cream (cetyl alcohol, glyceryl
monostearate, liquid parafﬁn, propylene glycol, tocopherol,
sodium edetate, polysorbate 80, water).

http://intrepidthera.com/wp-content/...ifu-et-al-.pdf

page 2 Study design and treatment

----------


## hellouser

> Could this be the the compound of CB cream:
> 
> excipients of CB-03-01 1% cream (cetyl alcohol, glyceryl
> monostearate, liquid parafﬁn, propylene glycol, tocopherol,
> sodium edetate, polysorbate 80, water).
> 
> http://intrepidthera.com/wp-content/...ifu-et-al-.pdf
> 
> page 2 Study design and treatment


 Looks like the vehicle for acne.

----------


## efedrez

> Looks like the vehicle for acne.


 Even if the vehicle was designed for acne, would it make sense to use it for baldness?  

I imagine that it will a creamy solution that will give us a hard time on the scalp with hairs but hopefully it will work anyway

----------


## yan

Another small update from cosmo:

*CB-03-01:*
 Only topical antiandrogen for treatment of acne and alopecia in
development
 Outlicensed to Medicis/Valeant with $ 25m signing fee plus milestones
and low double digit royalties
 Phase II completed in acne:
 no major adverse event ocurred
 data report available shortly
 $ 20m milestone is due upon successful EOP II meeting with
FDA scheduled for September
 POC in alopecia to start H2 2014: $ 10m milestone at completion
(6 months treatment; overall one year trial)

----------


## hellouser

> Even if the vehicle was designed for acne, would it make sense to use it for baldness?  
> 
> I imagine that it will a creamy solution that will give us a hard time on the scalp with hairs but hopefully it will work anyway


 Ingredient needs to sink underneath the skin. I can't see the cream working at all.

----------


## Sogeking

> Another small update from cosmo:
> 
> *CB-03-01:*
>  Only topical antiandrogen for treatment of acne and alopecia in
> development
>  Outlicensed to Medicis/Valeant with $ 25m signing fee plus milestones
> and low double digit royalties
>  Phase II completed in acne:
>  no major adverse event ocurred
> ...


 
Nice man, one year phase 2 trial. They could be finished with Phase 2 alopecia trial by end of next year. Then if they enter phase 3 thats it.

----------


## rdawg

> Another small update from cosmo:
> 
> *CB-03-01:*
>  Only topical antiandrogen for treatment of acne and alopecia in
> development
>  Outlicensed to Medicis/Valeant with $ 25m signing fee plus milestones
> and low double digit royalties
>  Phase II completed in acne:
>  no major adverse event ocurred
> ...


 It's a very good sign when the treatment is approved for a different situation. If anything, we can possibly use it and modify it slightly to use it on our hair which is helpful.

Usually that means not having to go through a long phase II process, they could do Phase II within a year(arent they in Pre-clinical for the MPB treatment?)

So sounds like BIM and CB will be our near future options as of now.

----------


## maomao

> Another small update from cosmo:
> 
> *CB-03-01:*
>  Only topical antiandrogen for treatment of acne and alopecia in
> development
>  Outlicensed to Medicis/Valeant with $ 25m signing fee plus milestones
> and low double digit royalties
>  Phase II completed in acne:
>  no major adverse event ocurred
> ...


 Great! So this means the IND must have been accepted then - Phase 1 I assume will be pretty short as they already did the testing for the Acne treatment.

Once Phase 2 starts - is this when we will be able to find out what the vehicle is?

----------


## hellouser

> Once Phase 2 starts - is this when we will be able to find out what the vehicle is?


 Good point! Maybe so. Hopefully Mark will have some info for us.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Great! So this means the IND must have been accepted then - Phase 1 I assume will be pretty short as they already did the testing for the Acne treatment.
> 
> Once Phase 2 starts - is this when we will be able to find out what the vehicle is?


 Last I talked to them they said that the cream cannot be used on the scalp because the delivery vehicle and formula and concentration are all different. 

There is no way they are going to tell people what the vehicle and recipe are. they are trying to sell it.  we're gonna have to wait.  we also don't even know if this stuff works or how well it will work, people on here hype shit up so much it's ridiculous.  androgens are only part of the problem, as has been proved by finasteride. this might be a nice treatment, but a POC will take a year, phase one another, phase two another, phase three another etc. it takes 8 years to go through trials, maybe take two off if we're lucky because it's proven safe for acne.  and then still I'm sure it will have side effects if it does work.  everything has side effects, which is why stem cell treatments are exciting, because they di not use foreign drugs.

----------


## burtandernie

I still think CB 03 01 is one of the nearest and most promising things because we know it will work. Propecia did the dirty work already we know what an AA can do and since this would be the first topical I think the sides will be minimal compared to propecia. I just hope its powerful and the vehicle gets the job done.
Of course, we have to wait and see. There are no sure things here and its going to be a long wait.

----------


## Swooping

CB-03-01 is just as , or just a bit less powerful than RU58841. So whoever has hope for him miraculously regrowing all his hair with it, forget about it. 1&#37; will be to weak to use for alopecia, just as RU58841 doesn't perform at 1%. 

Prevention is key though, and cb-03-01 will really be extremely nice for young people (and everyone) who can hop on it and don't have to deal with possible anti-androgenic side effects.

----------


## maomao

> Last I talked to them they said that the cream cannot be used on the scalp because the delivery vehicle and formula and concentration are all different. 
> 
> There is no way they are going to tell people what the vehicle and recipe are. they are trying to sell it.  we're gonna have to wait.  we also don't even know if this stuff works or how well it will work, people on here hype shit up so much it's ridiculous.  androgens are only part of the problem, as has been proved by finasteride. this might be a nice treatment, but a POC will take a year, phase one another, phase two another, phase three another etc. it takes 8 years to go through trials, maybe take two off if we're lucky because it's proven safe for acne.  and then still I'm sure it will have side effects if it does work.  everything has side effects, which is why stem cell treatments are exciting, because they di not use foreign drugs.


 POC is phase one and phase two. (Unless I'm mistaken)

As for the vehicle, the acne one is known, which is why I'm guessing the alopecia one would become known when trials start.

----------


## rdawg

> CB-03-01 is just as , or just a bit less powerful than RU58841. So whoever has hope for him miraculously regrowing all his hair with it, forget about it. 1% will be to weak to use for alopecia, just as RU58841 doesn't perform at 1%. 
> 
> Prevention is key though, and cb-03-01 will really be extremely nice for young people (and everyone) who can hop on it and don't have to deal with possible anti-androgenic side effects.


 I think it would be of interest for agressive hairloss sufferers and in general with it's stacking affect.

Mixing fin with CB which supposedly has a very good safety profile can potentially halt or improve the hair on an aggressive hairloss sufferer. 

RU I don't feel as it's worth it imo as I've seen similar side effects happen to people and it just seems that CB for a similar price would be better.

----------


## deuce

> Last I talked to them they said that the cream cannot be used on the scalp because the delivery vehicle and formula and concentration are all different. 
> 
> There is no way they are going to tell people what the vehicle and recipe are. they are trying to sell it.  we're gonna have to wait.  we also don't even know if this stuff works or how well it will work, people on here hype shit up so much it's ridiculous.  androgens are only part of the problem, as has been proved by finasteride. this might be a nice treatment, but a POC will take a year, phase one another, phase two another, phase three another etc. it takes 8 years to go through trials, maybe take two off if we're lucky because it's proven safe for acne.  and then still I'm sure it will have side effects if it does work.  everything has side effects, which is why stem cell treatments are exciting, because they di not use foreign drugs.


 I may be wrong, but wasn't the IND for Acne filed in 2012?

----------


## Swooping

> I think it would be of interest for agressive hairloss sufferers and in general with it's stacking affect.
> 
> Mixing fin with CB which supposedly has a very good safety profile can potentially halt or improve the hair on an aggressive hairloss sufferer. 
> 
> RU I don't feel as it's worth it imo as I've seen similar side effects happen to people and it just seems that CB for a similar price would be better.


 Well let me put it to you this way then perhaps you understand. If you were both to apply RU and CB in the same &#37;. You are yielding pretty much CB useless because it will lose competing to the androgen receptor. 

But yeah, the lack of supposedly side effects for CB is extremely nice that will help out many people who generally are very susceptible to side effects whether that is from fin, dut , ru etc.

But prevention is one thing, when damage to the cells is done and it is to late you ain't going reverse your hairloss even if you were to inhibit the AR 100% and stop androgens completely from binding. Simple as that.

----------


## rdawg

> Well let me put it to you this way then perhaps you understand. If you were both to apply RU and CB in the same %. You are yielding pretty much CB useless because it will lose competing to the androgen receptor.


 Wouldn't it be a different story with Fin+CB though as fin is systemic while RU is topical?

I'm essentially saying wouldn't it help inhibit more and do more to halt the loss?

Your last sentence may be true now, but it seems clear that science is figuring a way to awaken those 'damaged' cells. So what we clearly need to worry about is maintenance and getting any growth that we can now and in the near future until a major product comes out in the next decade.

----------


## Pate

> Wouldn't it be a different story with Fin+CB though as fin is systemic while RU is topical?
> 
> I'm essentially saying wouldn't it help inhibit more and do more to halt the loss?


 Yes, Fin+CB would be more effective than CB alone. They have quite different mechanisms. Fin is a 5AR inhibitor while CB is an androgen antagonist. But CB may be effective enough on its own that the benefit of adding fin is not really noticeable. I for one plan to discontinue fin as soon as I can get a reliable, proven source of CB in an effective vehicle.

CB+RU would probably just be like applying a double dose of one or the other.

RU shouldn't really have androgenic systemic effects, from what work has been done. It has a tiny systemic effect, but the active metabolite of RU is very much in the minority - something like 1%. The other 99% of metabolised RU is inactive, like the metabolite of CB. So CB and RU should both have basically no systemic sides.

So when guys are reporting sides from RU, I can only really see three explanations:

1. The research was wrong about RU and it's more systemic than first thought
2. These guys getting sides are SERIOUSLY sensitive to anti-androgens
3. There is a placebo component to the sides

I have mild sides from fin but nothing at all from RU, which is I believe what the vast majority of guys will experience.

----------


## Paul73

> Yes, Fin+CB would be more effective than CB alone. They have quite different mechanisms. Fin is a 5AR inhibitor while CB is an androgen antagonist. But CB may be effective enough on its own that the benefit of adding fin is not really noticeable. I for one plan to discontinue fin as soon as I can get a reliable, proven source of CB in an effective vehicle.
> 
> CB+RU would probably just be like applying a double dose of one or the other.
> 
> RU shouldn't really have androgenic systemic effects, from what work has been done. It has a tiny systemic effect, but the active metabolite of RU is very much in the minority - something like 1&#37;. The other 99% of metabolised RU is inactive, like the metabolite of CB. So CB and RU should both have basically no systemic sides.
> 
> So when guys are reporting sides from RU, I can only really see three explanations:
> 
> 1. The research was wrong about RU and it's more systemic than first thought
> ...


 Good post.

Since you seem to know a lot about RU, what are your thoughts about the cancer risk on it? I mean, the substance was not tested in humans long enough to check this possibility. So how do you know if in the long run it will not cause tumors? 

Or we will never know the answer? 

Thanks!

----------


## rdawg

> Yes, Fin+CB would be more effective than CB alone. They have quite different mechanisms. Fin is a 5AR inhibitor while CB is an androgen antagonist. But CB may be effective enough on its own that the benefit of adding fin is not really noticeable. I for one plan to discontinue fin as soon as I can get a reliable, proven source of CB in an effective vehicle.


 Thanks for answering this is what I thought. Essentially Fin is more systemic/general CB is more localised.

I think aggressive sufferers need a two-pronged approach, I don't suffer from sides but my hair is very slowly getting worse(i've been NW3 for about 2 years now, but I'm guessing I'll be NW4 within the next two years) 

Either way if we can get CB here AND BIM as well, it may be a very good booster for our hair while we wait for a more complete, advanced solution that may come down the road.

----------


## maomao

> I may be wrong, but wasn't the IND for Acne filed in 2012?


 Yes - it was - http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/.../12-03-12.aspx

The US Phase II study then started 3 months later (June 2012) and was completed Feb 2014 (http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...B-03-01&rank=1)

Interestingly, before the US Phase II trials had started, they had already done Phase II studies in Europe - although this doesn't show up anywhere on the EU Clinical Trials register (https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu/ctr-search/search). I'm not sure if this is the case with the Alopecia as well?

What I can't find though, is when Cosmos first gave out the Acne cream vehicle - it would be nice to see how long after phase II went active they did that. It might give us a rough time when the alopecia vehicle will be known...

----------


## Pate

> Good post.
> 
> Since you seem to know a lot about RU, what are your thoughts about the cancer risk on it? I mean, the substance was not tested in humans long enough to check this possibility. So how do you know if in the long run it will not cause tumors? 
> 
> Or we will never know the answer? 
> 
> Thanks!


 It's impossible to really know. It must have passed all its safety tests to get to Phase II, including some pretty significant pre-clinical toxicology trials, so I doubt there is any really significant cancer risk, but since it never went to large-scale testing it's possible.

It's one of the risks you've got to take if you use an unapproved compound, I guess.

----------


## Paul73

> It's impossible to really know. It must have passed all its safety tests to get to Phase II, including some pretty significant pre-clinical toxicology trials, so I doubt there is any really significant cancer risk, but since it never went to large-scale testing it's possible.
> 
> It's one of the risks you've got to take if you use an unapproved compound, I guess.


 Thanks, Pate.
Have you been using RU for a long time? What´s your experience with this?

----------


## FearTheLoss

what phase are they in for alopecia? when will we get an update? and when is the estimated commercialization?

----------


## deuce

I do not  know ehy people are saying the alopecia version wont be for another 8 years. The ind for acne was filed 2 years ago and its eta is 2-3 years from now

----------


## goldnt

I could of sworn thhey said in one of their previous presentations that they were going to start phase trials 1 for alopecia in either 2,3,4(ik sorry i forgot) quarter of the 2014 year.

----------


## FearTheLoss

I thought they were already done w phase 1. I believe it says that on their site.

----------


## Duke

Correct, FearTheLoss

according to this they are done with phase 1 and about to start phase 2

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...line_03_14.pdf

----------


## FearTheLoss

Guys I just spoke with a representative for Cosmo and they are actually well underway with their "phase II proof of concept trials" for alopecia. They are starting phase III for acne in the coming months. This is a great sign, it looks as if they, as well as other companies, are further than we are aware of. 

FTL

----------


## hellouser

> Guys I just spoke with a representative for Cosmo and they are actually well underway with their "phase II proof of concept trials" for alopecia. They are starting phase III for acne in the coming months. This is a great sign, it looks as if they, as well as other companies, are further than we are aware of. 
> 
> FTL


 Can you copy/paste the email conversation???

----------


## FearTheLoss

"Hello, 

I'm very interested in your companies progress with the CB compound for hair loss. I see that you have finished phase 1 trials. When are phase 2 trials beginning?"

"Hi *********,
We have completed phase II acne and will start with phase III in the coming months. We are in proof of concept phase II for alopecia right now.
Best regards

Dr. Chris Tanner 
Chief  Financial Officer

cid:image001.jpg@01CD06A8.A2EBD7D0
Via C. Colombo, 1 
20020 Lainate, Milan - Italy
Phone: + 39 02 93 33 7453
Fax: + 39 02 93 33 7604
CTanner@cosmopharma.com
www.cosmopharma.com"

----------


## Sogeking

> "Hello, 
> 
> I'm very interested in your companies progress with the CB compound for hair loss. I see that you have finished phase 1 trials. When are phase 2 trials beginning?"
> 
> "Hi *********,
> We have completed phase II acne and will start with phase III in the coming months. We are in proof of concept phase II for alopecia right now.
> Best regards
> 
> Dr. Chris Tanner 
> ...


  NOICE!!!

CB will come within 5 years. This is good. Replicel will follow. With pilofocus they might be some kind of a bridge towards the cure we are waiting for.

----------


## Scalpology

If CB will come out in 5 years, how come people have gotten and tested it before now?

----------


## FearTheLoss

Yes, as long as the proof of concept phase II results are similar to their initial study results we should see CB out in 3-5 years max.

----------


## stan

> Yes, as long as the proof of concept phase II results are similar to their initial study results we should see CB out in 3-5 years max.


 what happens after phase 3? are there only three phases? what is motive behind each phase? sorry i am a newbie.

----------


## tommy e

> what happens after phase 3? are there only three phases? what is motive behind each phase? sorry i am a newbie.


 I think they are like 5 phases, but drugs undergoing phase 3 trials can be marketed under FDA norms, the rest phases are postmarketing.  :Smile:

----------


## sascha

> what happens after phase 3? are there only three phases? what is motive behind each phase? sorry i am a newbie.


 phase 1 is for showing that the drugs does something.
phase 2 is for testing for a longer period of time, around 1,5 years+. There they also find out the perfect dosage.
phase 3 is the phase where they meet with the FDA and clear about the steps that need to be done to enter the market. another 6 month - 1 year.

a wikipedia search will bring you good information about it.

----------


## hellouser

> phase 1 is for showing that the drugs does something.
> phase 2 is for testing for a longer period of time, around 1,5 years+. There they also find out the perfect dosage.
> phase 3 is the phase where they meet with the FDA and clear about the steps that need to be done to enter the market. another 6 month - 1 year.
> 
> a wikipedia search will bring you good information about it.


 Phase I is safety.

----------


## sascha

Yes hellouser is right. phase 1 is safety and efficiency to some degree. Sorry

----------


## Pentarou

Does anyone know what the European Union equivalent to the FDA and its 'phases' are, and if they know of there's information on how far along CB-03-01 is along with it?

----------


## stan

wow thank you very much guys! much appreciated.

----------


## 35YrsAfter

> Update from Cosmo.
> 
> http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F...25JAN13_v5.pdf


 Thanks for posting.  I believe that treatments more effective than Propecia and Avodart will be available within the next few years. 

_35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant 1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice. Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Thanks for posting.  I believe that treatments more effective than Propecia and Avodart will be available within the next few years. 
> 
> _35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant 1070 Powers Place Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
> The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice. Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck_


 Correct me if I'm wrong, but they finish POC in March of 2015, so we could see this hit the market by the end of 2016, baring they get the results they want in POC. 

CB won't need a phase IIb? Also, this could be released overseas in 2015?

----------


## sdsurfin

How did the acne product go so fast from IND to phase II? If you look at the alopecia product, the timeline goes from IND to a long time in proof of concept. Is proff of concept the same as phase II or I?  Either way I'm not sure why people are saying 3-5 years, it seems more like 2 more for phase 1, another 2 probably for phase 2, and maybe another for phase 3, and then putting it out to market after that. 6-8 seems more realistic. And that's if this BS even works, they compare it to flutamide on here, didn't people try that with no success? Also, I doubt there's any great mystery to the vehicle, they are just using anhydrous solution, I'm sure if this was really a bette treatment than propecia then people would have seen results by now. Wouldnt put my hopes on this stuff.

----------


## stan

> How did the acne product go so fast from IND to phase II? If you look at the alopecia product, the timeline goes from IND to a long time in proof of concept. Is proff of concept the same as phase II or I?  Either way I'm not sure why people are saying 3-5 years, it seems more like 2 more for phase 1, another 2 probably for phase 2, and maybe another for phase 3, and then putting it out to market after that. 6-8 seems more realistic. And that's if this BS even works, they compare it to flutamide on here, didn't people try that with no success? Also, I doubt there's any great mystery to the vehicle, they are just using anhydrous solution, I'm sure if this was really a bette treatment than propecia then people would have seen results by now. Wouldnt put my hopes on this stuff.


  i think they are done with  phase I and in phase II already, acc to a guy who contacted people at cosmo. can you please tell me if there was any study etc that shows that cb has been more effective than fin, i mean a lot of people here say that it would be like topical fin but better, but based on what?

----------


## Atum

Didn't Kane shop said last year in dec. or something like that they would release a cream or gel in 3-4 months time? Where the heck is it?

----------


## Paul73

If CB-03-01 is already for sale at Kane, why should we wait for Cosmo´s trials?

Isn´t Hellouser using CB with great success? Why not follow his protocol to prepare it right now?

BTW, Hellouser. are you still using CB? Could you update us about your recent results on it?

I´d appreciate your feedback. Thanks!

----------


## Denda

I agree, if they design it to be applied via pulse therapy the atrophy should be avoided

----------


## Seuxin

Paul73,

Yes, you could buy CB-03-01 on kane, but you need to have the good vehicle with it.
In addition, CB-03-01 is heay heavy higher price !!! :\

----------


## rdawg

This, along with BIM seems clearly on track for release. It's a very good sign when the product is already released/about to be released for a different situation.

BIM will be done phase IIb by january, likely moving on barring massive side effects(or if it doesnt work enough for them)

CB looks like it wont even need phase IIb given it's more of a product similar to fin, but it's an interesting product in that it can be used alone with seemingly no side effects OR it can be stacked on top of fin(for aggressive sufferers) to give an even better result. 

Seems likely we'll have 1-2 new products by 2016, albeit they wont be cures, but they'll be new solutions.

----------


## rdawg

> If CB-03-01 is already for sale at Kane, why should we wait for Cosmo´s trials?
> 
> Isn´t Hellouser using CB with great success? Why not follow his protocol to prepare it right now?
> 
> BTW, Hellouser. are you still using CB? Could you update us about your recent results on it?
> 
> I´d appreciate your feedback. Thanks!


 Vehicle issues really is the situation, Desmond seemed to have found a proper one but it was IMO too complex for the average person to put together(it was like 10 different chemicals).

If they put together something proper it'll be great to get it earlier, i'm very interested in seeing their phase I results or Phase II results next year though.

----------


## Paul73

> Vehicle issues really is the situation, Desmond seemed to have found a proper one but it was IMO too complex for the average person to put together(it was like 10 different chemicals).
> 
> If they put together something proper it'll be great to get it earlier, i'm very interested in seeing their phase I results or Phase II results next year though.


 rdawg, thanks for the answer.

i agree that the vehicle is the issue here, but that´s why i asked for Hellouser update. If i am not wrong he is using CB with good results. 

Maybe when phase II trials for hair loss start we will know which vehicle Cosmos is using. 

Hey Hellouser, can you comment about your actual status on CB?

Thanks guys!

----------


## Swooping

> Vehicle issues really is the situation, Desmond seemed to have found a proper one but it was IMO too complex for the average person to put together(it was like 10 different chemicals).
> 
> If they put together something proper it'll be great to get it earlier, i'm very interested in seeing their phase I results or Phase II results next year though.


 Sorry but there are really no vehicle issues for CB.. The problem is the price, not the vehicle. PG/ETH is completely fine as a vehicle only thing that isn't known is the stability but you can make daily batches to cope with that. You really need to use at least like a 3% concentration though and preferably 5%.

----------


## LMS

> Sorry but there are really no vehicle issues for CB.. The problem is the price, not the vehicle. PG/ETH is completely fine as a vehicle only thing that isn't known is the stability but you can make daily batches to cope with that. You really need to use at least like a 3% concentration though and preferably 5%.


 isnt the permeability of pg/eth pretty bad though.  i believe cosmo released studies showing (on cadaver skin) that penetration was like many times better with oleyl alcohol.

i think some sort of solvent or a combination is needed.  dmi/nmp/oleyl.  dmso would almost definately work though no practical  :Stick Out Tongue: 

price is also a huge factor.  price im willing to pay for side effect free aa.

----------


## Scalpology

Is it worth taking if I'm already on RU?

----------


## LMS

> Is it worth taking if I'm already on RU?


 They're both topical anti androgens.  The only reason you'd want to go on CB is if you're getting sides on RU (like I do, much less than fin sides tho).
Stacking them together would yield little improvement over one.

----------


## burtandernie

If this BS works? How is something going through trials to prove it works at the highest standards in existance any kind of BS compared to the huge list of previous topicals where the company just says it works maybe with a small study to support it? Something going through trials is a different league of proof than anything else. If it doesnt work it will be shown and they wouldnt even be going to further trials and its already far enough along in acne to be pretty sure it works.
They will find a vehicle that works or it will never come out I guess. Some small early study said it was about twice as strong as fin, but finding the right dose if its higher might do better who knows. You dont know anything until they go through this long process and prove it

----------


## torontostringer

can i mix this into minox and leave on the shelf or should i store it in the fridge?

----------


## Paul73

What about CB-03-01 pre-made solution from Iron Dragon?

They are selling it since 2013. Has anybody tried it?

----------


## hellouser

> What about CB-03-01 pre-made solution from Iron Dragon?
> 
> They are selling it since 2013. Has anybody tried it?


 As has been mentioned numerous times; Iron Dragon does NOT reveal purity tests of their CB-03-01 compound. Make of that what you will.

----------


## Paul73

> As has been mentioned numerous times; Iron Dragon does NOT reveal purity tests of their CB-03-01 compound. Make of that what you will.


 Thank you. I confess i didn´t do the ideal research to know about that. 

Please, do you mind to comment about your recent experience with CB? Do you believe that you are using a efficient vehicle? I´d appreciate your feedback on it. I imagine other friends here would like to know about that too. Sorry if you already detailed it. 

Thanks!

----------


## Paul73

_

----------


## joachim

hey guys. wasn't kane planning to bring a gel or nano-vehicle for cb? wasn't kane able to develop it or what? does anybody know more about kane's team? how many people are working there? are these professional chemists or what kind of guys are they?

i just wondered... are we really supposed to wait for cosmo's official release of their cb?
can't we just find a company (some chemists professionals) and pay them some money to help us with the vehicle? what about crowdfunding? i don't think that more than 100.000 are required for that mission. this would be an easy goal to crowdfund, and could bring us CB three years sooner. who knows for how long cosmo will be dancing around with their phases. so, do we really just have to wait all those years?

----------


## lilpauly

Cosmo announces successful conclusion of acne Phase II trial and agreement with Valeant to continue developing CB-03-01 in house

Lainate, Italy – July 8, 2014 – Cosmo Pharmaceuticals S.p.A. (SIX: COPN) today informed that it had successfully concluded the phase II acne trials of CB-03-01 and that, prior to the upcoming end of phase II meeting with the FDA, both Cosmo and Valeant Pharmaceuticals International, Inc., the licensee (NYSE / TSX: VRX), had agreed that it was preferable for both parties for Cosmo to continue developing the drug. Consequently both Cosmo and Valeant agreed to unwind the present agreement and replace it with an agreement granting Valeant a right of first refusal should Cosmo decide to license out the drug after completing its development.Alessandro Della Chà, CEO, commented: “I am very pleased by the results of this phase II, and even more pleased that Cosmo can continue developing the products in-house, leveraging on all the accumulated know how. Their potential is very significant, so the retention of the rights now allow us to create a stronger franchise in the derma field. Together with CB-03-01 we now have 5 products in clinical development. Given our strong financial position and in-house expertise, we are well equipped to exploit the potential of this rich pipeline for the benefit of patients and shareholders”."

http://www.cosmopharma.com/news/press/2 ... 07-08.aspx

----------


## joachim

thanks lilpauly. but what does it mean exactly? ok, a successful phase 2 for acne completed, but the hairloss version is still more than 3 years away, if not more. no?

----------


## clarence

CB all over the last 2 years at numerous forums, along the right ingretients to penetrate the scalp. Nothing has come out of it

----------


## burtandernie

Of course its going to be a long wait, but less of wait than some of the other stuff hyped up around here. The one thing I worry about CB is just the cost of this once if it does get finished. Its going to cost a fortune to make up for getting through the FDA.
Something will come out of it once it gets approval and you can buy it knowing that its proven and formulated to work

----------


## kmit028

There is a newly found vehicle that may work:

NMP or DMI + ethanol + glycerol or PG or BG

NMP - http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...&enterthread=y

Use NMP to dissolve CB, then just use the 70/30 or 80/20 vehicle of ethanol + glycerol/PG/BG

Also have a look here
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...&enterthread=y

----------


## rdawg

> CB all over the last 2 years at numerous forums, along the right ingretients to penetrate the scalp. Nothing has come out of it


 I've never actually seen a member using it with the proper vehicle though, it's my understanding many of the vehicles members were using werent actually penetrating the scalp and that the vehicle is slightly more complex than just ethanol for example.

Great news that was posted above this comment though, this drug like Propecia was(and BIM was), is about to get approved for something else, very very likely this gets approved for hairloss as well barring very poor results, the next year will be very interesting.

Personally, I'm waiting to see Phase I/II hairloss trial results, if they're promising I'll be jumping on band wagon right away and stack this on top of FIN.

----------


## yan

Salix Pharmaceuticals to Combine with Cosmo Technologies to Form Salix Pharmaceuticals, plc

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...014-07-09.aspx

After the deal, cosmo owns 19.4 million shares of Salix, worth at $2.7 billion. 

The cosmo share price is exploding. Around 90% rise in only 3 months and 200% rise in the last year.  

I think these are all good signs. In most cases, when cosmo started developing a drug, it made it to market. They are very well capitalized, so from the financial part, things look very good. The risk is very low that they get bought up per example.

----------


## burtandernie

As an added benefit I think its possible CB 03 01 could be used to prevent unwanted hair growth. I would be curious to see how it does on just body hair or facial hair if it really interferes with both T and DHT in a powerful enough way it should have some effect. What happens to body/facial hair if  you not only significantly lower DHT but also T does hair growth stop/slow or unaffected? I am curious to see that.

----------


## ShookOnes

Can't believe I've been lurking for years but never bothered to look at this thread until a few nights ago. Will Pilofocus+CB be the closest thing we have to a cure? And CB is applied once a week? I'm 21 but I've had sexual sides from fin but as a diffuser I can't stop or I'll very quickly become a NW7 from my NW3 in a matter of years

----------


## BoSox

Is CB still on schedule to be released 2015 in the US? Also, is this only a stronger form of Rogaine? I'm a diffuse thinner, and worried nothing will work on me a year from now.

----------


## FearTheLoss

CB for acne was scheduled for 2015..for alopecia it was originally 2016 or 2017 I believe..and no it, in preclinical trials, looked to be a stronger version of propecia without side effects.

----------


## yan

Update from Cosmo:

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...ationfinal.pdf

CB-03-01 Phase II data for acne look very promising. 

- Phase II dose ranging trial completed
- Best dose identified
- 1.0% BID (twice a day) treatment group had the best results
- *No adverse events* 
- Phase III scheduled to start Q4 2014.


I think the acne version will be out in 2016. Alopecia 2017 - 2018.

----------


## burtandernie

Every time I see someone mention CB its a different number of years until it comes out. I think the last one on here I read he said 6 years which puts it at 2020 or 2021? I hope im not dead by then

----------


## JZA70

> Every time I see someone mention CB its a different number of years until it comes out.


 That's speculation at it's finest.

----------


## cthulhu2

> Cosmo announces successful conclusion of acne Phase II trial and agreement with Valeant to continue developing CB-03-01 in house
> 
> Lainate, Italy – July 8, 2014 – Cosmo Pharmaceuticals S.p.A. (SIX: COPN) today informed that it had successfully concluded the phase II acne trials of CB-03-01 and that, prior to the upcoming end of phase II meeting with the FDA, both Cosmo and Valeant Pharmaceuticals International, Inc., the licensee (NYSE / TSX: VRX), had agreed that it was preferable for both parties for Cosmo to continue developing the drug. Consequently both Cosmo and Valeant agreed to unwind the present agreement and replace it with an agreement granting Valeant a right of first refusal should Cosmo decide to license out the drug after completing its development.Alessandro Della Chà, CEO, commented: “I am very pleased by the results of this phase II, and even more pleased that Cosmo can continue developing the products in-house, leveraging on all the accumulated know how. Their potential is very significant, so the retention of the rights now allow us to create a stronger franchise in the derma field. Together with CB-03-01 we now have 5 products in clinical development. Given our strong financial position and in-house expertise, we are well equipped to exploit the potential of this rich pipeline for the benefit of patients and shareholders”."
> 
> http://www.cosmopharma.com/news/press/2 ... 07-08.aspx


 I don't understand why people are so negative, this is great news! Think about all of the other topical anti androgens that were in the pipeline (neosh-101, asc-j9, ru) and failed to make it into phase III. I don't think we have to worry about the fact that the alopecia trials are lagging behind the acne trials since doctors would likely prescribe it off label to treat AGA (think dutasteride).

----------


## lothar99

There is a new PDF up today from Cosmo's "Investors and Analysts Meeting" in Germany. They do discuss the Phase 2 acne results (but no vehicle) and they call the results "very promising", there were no "adverse events", and Phase 3 begins this year. 

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...ationfinal.pdf

----------


## ShookOnes

> I don't understand why people are so negative, this is great news! Think about all of the other topical anti androgens that were in the pipeline (neosh-101, asc-j9, ru) and failed to make it into phase III. I don't think we have to worry about the fact that the alopecia trials are lagging behind the acne trials since *doctors would likely prescribe it off label to treat AGA* (think dutasteride).


 this is* exactly* the point of the trials to the blind uneducated idiots that can't see through this. Comso is an enormous financially powerful company. They would know that something for DHT would be much more difficult to get through FDA as it is hormones you are trying to affect, which would require quite some more time than good ol' acne cream. Acne cream which has a side effect of stopping baldness if you apply on scalp. dear lord i should get my transplant soon.

----------


## ShookOnes

> Is CB still on schedule to be released 2015 in the US? Also, is this only a stronger form of Rogaine? I'm a diffuse thinner, and worried nothing will work on me a year from now.


 I'm a diffuser also. Went form NW 0 -> 3 with thin scalp in 2 years.* GET ON FIN. Diffusers are alike, it will regrow everything except temples in a year. Stop the fin after you regrow everything* because CB will be available then.
CB is scheduled for acne in 2015, if we get it off label then the game will be different in a year for us, brother. If not, 2016 will be the year for AA at the latest.

And NO, it is not just a stronger form of rogaine. It is basically rogaine+fin on steroids. I believe you only need to apply it once a week on the scalp also.

----------


## LMS

> And NO, it is not just a stronger form of rogaine. It is basically rogaine+fin on steroids. I believe you only need to apply it once a week on the scalp also.


 CB is just an anti androgen much like RU, sans sides.  Its also a mild anti inflammatory due to being a potent steroidal anti androgen.  Far from anything like rogaine...

----------


## ShookOnes

whoops i mean 2017/2018? how come you can't edit posts after a few hours ;s

----------


## sdsurfin

You don't know any of this, nor do I think it's even accurate.  CB has only just begun preclinical trials for AA(clinical trials take 8 years). I spoke to them a while back and they said that if the acne version proves safe, then it might take a couple years off the testing time for AA. still looking at 5 years or so.  Also, they were pretty vehement that the acne version will do nothing for AA. They said the concentration is different and the vehicle is totally different. Which means that we will still be at the same place with it as we are now, until they come out with the aa version (if it works and they ever do). Lotta ifs here, and no way it comes to market that soon. They just filed the IND, and you can't go around saying it's like "rgaine and fin on steroids" when all we have to back that up is one little trial that used iontophoresis, which we can't use anyway.  Anyhow a lot of the time these initial trials don't mean squat.  RU and other compounds had great initial trials and then failed.  Not trying to be negative or say that it won't be a great drug, it might be. But let's stop getting people all hyped up, especially with these bogus timelines.

----------


## sdsurfin

> this is* exactly* the point of the trials to the blind uneducated idiots that can't see through this. Comso is an enormous financially powerful company. They would know that something for DHT would be much more difficult to get through FDA as it is hormones you are trying to affect, which would require quite some more time than good ol' acne cream. Acne cream which has a side effect of stopping baldness if you apply on scalp. dear lord i should get my transplant soon.


 
this statement makes no sense. They are both used to block DHT.  they are testing acne first because it's a bigger and more reliable market. period. It's also easier to treat acne than alopecia, and can be used for women and men.  Also you will not be able to use the acne version on your head. Cosmo confirmed this to me a while back, so stop getting people all hyped on the idea. It's a different concentration and vehicle, and you can't just remove the chemical from the cream or something.  I doubt CB will even work for alopecia, vehicles are not that complicated and people have been getting no results from this on the black market.  Just because it worked with iontophoresis doesn't mean that it will ever work as a topical.

----------


## sascha

Actually the website of cosmo states that IND for CB 03 01 for acne was in Q1 2012, began phase 2 in H2 2012 And as you all may know, finished phase 2 a couple of days ago.
They should have filled the IND for CB 03 01 for alopecia in H1 2014.
Q1 2012 -> July 2014 = around 28 months for the acne version.
To all Inspector Gadgets out there, have fun  :Smile:

----------


## ShookOnes

> this statement makes no sense. They are both used to block DHT.  they are testing acne first because it's a bigger and more reliable market. period. It's also easier to treat acne than alopecia, and can be used for women and men.  Also you will not be able to use the acne version on your head. Cosmo confirmed this to me a while back, so stop getting people all hyped on the idea. It's a different concentration and vehicle, and you can't just remove the chemical from the cream or something.  I doubt CB will even work for alopecia, vehicles are not that complicated and people have been getting no results from this on the black market.  Just because it worked with iontophoresis doesn't mean that it will ever work as a topical.


 
2010, http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx

Mauro Ajani, Chief Executive Officer of Cosmo Pharmaceuticals, said: We are extremely pleased with this result. This is the first step towards establishing CB-03-01 as an *effective, topically applied anti-androgen* and could therefore mark a major breakthrough for all men and women affected by androgenetic alopecia. Currently the only FDA approved anti-androgen for this condition is Propecia..."

True but you're just a guy on the internet criticizing a financially driven billion-dollar company that's trying to knock down propecia and take over the entire market.  And they're still progressing with this, 4 years later. i belib

----------


## Phatalis

This might be a rediculous question. But if CB already works miraculously with iontopherorsisisis or whatever... why the **** cant we just like... do that? get treatments with that?

Like.. idk. Can't they make a machine for home use?? Idk.. tell me why im dumb

----------


## hellouser

> This might be a rediculous question. But if CB already works miraculously with iontopherorsisisis or whatever... why the **** cant we just like... do that? get treatments with that?
> 
> Like.. idk. Can't they make a machine for home use?? Idk.. tell me why im dumb


 The machine costs so much, that if you had the money for it just to save your hair, you probably wouldn't care about being bald.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> You don't know any of this, nor do I think it's even accurate.  CB has only just begun preclinical trials for AA(clinical trials take 8 years). I spoke to them a while back and they said that if the acne version proves safe, then it might take a couple years off the testing time for AA. still looking at 5 years or so.  Also, they were pretty vehement that the acne version will do nothing for AA. They said the concentration is different and the vehicle is totally different. Which means that we will still be at the same place with it as we are now, until they come out with the aa version (if it works and they ever do). Lotta ifs here, and no way it comes to market that soon. They just filed the IND, and you can't go around saying it's like "rgaine and fin on steroids" when all we have to back that up is one little trial that used iontophoresis, which we can't use anyway.  Anyhow a lot of the time these initial trials don't mean squat.  RU and other compounds had great initial trials and then failed.  Not trying to be negative or say that it won't be a great drug, it might be. But let's stop getting people all hyped up, especially with these bogus timelines.


 This is a complete lie. I talked to them less than a month ago and they stated they were already underway with phase II clinical testing for alopecia. You're so negative that your own pessimistic attitude is obscuring your ability to look at facts.

----------


## Phatalis

> The machine costs so much, that if you had the money for it just to save your hair, you probably wouldn't care about being bald.


 Thanks hell. youre such an awesome poster.

----------


## Phatalis

> The machine costs so much, that if you had the money for it just to save your hair, you probably wouldn't care about being bald.


 Idk. I googled and they make some. Are these machines not the right ones? they were like 500+ pounds or something

----------


## hellouser

> Idk. I googled and they make some. Are these machines not the right ones? they were like 500+ pounds or something


 They used hydro electrophoresis... very different from the cheap run of the mill iontophoresis device.

----------


## ShookOnes

> They used hydro electrophoresis... very different from the cheap run of the mill iontophoresis device.


 we can't afford those to be able to use CB 03 01.  I doubt Cosmo will be able to produce a product that's comparable to hydro electro in topical form, that would take so much time to go through FDA... not to mention the sure genius of converting what a lab machine does to a cream, lol. is this the reason why people using their homemade vehicles have been failing? Not trying to be too pessimistic, I just discovered this CB thread after 2 years of lurking haha..

----------


## hellouser

> we can't afford those to be able to use CB 03 01.  I doubt Cosmo will be able to produce a product that's comparable to hydro electro in topical form, that would take so much time to go through FDA... not to mention the sure genius of converting what a lab machine does to a cream, lol. *is this the reason why people using their homemade vehicles have been failing?* Not trying to be too pessimistic, I just discovered this CB thread after 2 years of lurking haha..


 That, or perhaps the CB everyone's been using is fake. I don't have the answers.

----------


## Phatalis

Just out of raw curiosity again.. how much are those around.. a rough estimate? it'd be hilarious if somehow we did a "crowd funding" thing and got like a community machine for different areas and delivered CB ourselves lmfao.

Just joking.

----------


## Phatalis

welp, i need to bridge the gap until CB works or doesnt.

Right now I'm about to try propecia.. but im so ****ing scared.

I'm looking at Hells RU guide and about to try it out.

----------


## ShookOnes

would probably be a lot cheaper to 3D print the machine




> welp, i need to bridge the gap until CB works or doesnt.
> 
> Right now I'm about to try propecia.. but im so ****ing scared.
> 
> I'm looking at Hells RU guide and about to try it out.


 are you a diffuser? and take it 3x a week, that's what im doing

----------


## Phatalis

Yeah. diffuse. but i havent had much loss yet. i had a GHO HST for hairline. and now everything else is very slowly starting to go. it JUST started. you cant tell yet but its coming.

----------


## Phatalis

before HST I was a nw3 juts cause my hairline went back. i hid it well enough tho

----------


## Phatalis

take RU or Prop 3x week?

----------


## sdsurfin

> This is a complete lie. I talked to them less than a month ago and they stated they were already underway with phase II clinical testing for alopecia. You're so negative that your own pessimistic attitude is obscuring your ability to look at facts.


 Are you sure, I think thats for acne....  If not, well that's encouraging. Those must be european trials then, because as someone just posted, they are just barely filing an IND in the states in the first half of 2014 for alopecia.  A lot of conflicting information.  Would be great if someone could clear it all up.  Last time I talked to cosmo they were filing an IND for alopecia this year. that means a lot of years to come. Even if it came five years from now that would be great, but I remain skeptical due to the lack of results from users here, and also from past results of other anti androgenic topicals.  Hopefully it will be a great drug.  I also highly doubt that it won't have side effects, but hopefully they won't be of the brain/testicle killing variety.  I could deal with a lot of things, but not those.

----------


## ShookOnes

> Yeah. diffuse. but i havent had much loss yet. i had a GHO HST for hairline. and now everything else is very slowly starting to go. it JUST started. you cant tell yet but its coming.


 
in 2 years from a NW 0, almost perfect hairline with a slightly broader hairline/forehead than her: http://www.yeshairstyles.com/wp-cont...vie-awards.jpg

into this: (just uploaded for ya) : http://imgur.com/GSVye7o


I grew back the entire crown with fin in 1.5 years. my temples and the front hairline took a hit but... if CB takes more than a year, you're going to suffer greatly. you'll lose all the hair on the top/temples and only the hair you got from the transplant will be left. diffusers have it worst. people like hellrouser complain a lot but the small percent of us who see a future NW7 at 17 have it worst.

I'm hoping I can get pilofocus and then CB 03 forever, but that's riding A LOT that CB will be perfect as i fantasize it will be

----------


## sdsurfin

> in 2 years from a NW 0, almost perfect hairline with a slightly broader hairline/forehead than her: http://www.yeshairstyles.com/wp-cont...vie-awards.jpg
> 
> into this: (just uploaded for ya) : http://imgur.com/GSVye7o
> 
> 
> I grew back the entire crown with fin in 1.5 years. my temples and the front hairline took a hit but... if CB takes more than a year, you're going to suffer greatly. you'll lose all the hair on the top/temples and only the hair you got from the transplant will be left. diffusers have it worst. people like hellrouser complain a lot but the small percent of us who see a future NW7 at 17 have it worst.
> 
> I'm hoping I can get pilofocus and then CB 03 forever, but that's riding A LOT that CB will be perfect as i fantasize it will be


 You can't say how fast someone else's loss will occur.  In a way all men are diffuse thinners, stepdad has had perfect hair (grey) his whole life but into his fifties started thinning out considerably. same for most guys ive seen who have a full head in their later age.  Probably like 10% of guys don't thin out at all, and most of those are prob asians or native americans.  

that's great that fin works for you, if you don't get side effects i wouldn't worry too much, you'll probably have a better alternative in the somewhat near future.  anyway the only guys i've seen who look pretty bad with shaved heads are really light haired and pale guys, you're probably good even if you lose all of it.  sorry you lost it young, but that also means that you'll likely have a very effective cure before you're even old at all.  I have two friends that lost it all in their early twenties, two of the best guys I know and never let it slow them down. just rocked the shiny head and haven't been deprived of anything.  One day baldness will be obsolete and shaving your head bald will be exotic and desired, mark my words.

----------


## ShookOnes

> You can't say how fast someone else's loss will occur.  In a way all men are diffuse thinners, stepdad has had perfect hair (grey) his whole life but into his fifties started thinning out considerably. same for most guys ive seen who have a full head in their later age.  Probably like 10% of guys don't thin out at all, and most of those are prob asians or native americans.  
> 
> that's great that fin works for you, if you don't get side effects i wouldn't worry too much, you'll probably have a better alternative in the somewhat near future.  anyway the only guys i've seen who look pretty bad with shaved heads are really light haired and pale guys, you're probably good even if you lose all of it.  sorry you lost it young, but that also means that you'll likely have a very effective cure before you're even old at all.  I have two friends that lost it all in their early twenties, two of the best guys I know and never let it slow them down. just rocked the shiny head and haven't been deprived of anything.  One day baldness will be obsolete and shaving your head bald will be exotic and desired, mark my words.


 
diffuse thinners lose their hair at a young age with a NW6 shape. MPB is MPB but diffuse thinners by category are the most aggressive. My main point was that he should be on finasteride if he's starting to lose more hair after his transplant. He'll only look ridiculous to have hair at the hairline but completely bald everywhere else. And yeah, I've had side effects. Last 3 years I've had muddy brain fog.  I can probably medidate for hours because I can stare at a white wall for hours. My mind is easily detachable.  And no morning wood for the last three years with weak erections. But I still continue to take fin, or like the males in my family, I'll also go NW7 at 24.

sucks so I hope CB really is the next thing.

----------


## bradpitthair

Cosmos held a conf call a few days ago discussing the results of the CB 03 01 trial. They said that it was very effective in reducing acne and noticeable side effects were nil. The most effective percentage was 1% CB-03-01 cream and this will be used in their upcoming Phase 3 Trial.

----------


## cthulhu2

Did I hear someone say dermaroller??????????

I don't think we can trust black market cb though  :Frown:

----------


## Swooping

Guys how many times do i need to explain this. CB-03-01 isn't going to be any better than the current options we have. Yes indeed, it isn't going to be any better than dutasteride or RU in terms of effectiveness.* Furthermore the vehicle thing is broscience*. But it is quite logical to assume that when the binding of CB to the androgen receptor is weaker than RU that you need more than 1% of a concentration of CB to work.

1% isn't going to cut it for prevention of AGA, if they will ever release a formulation it is going to be 5%. The CB-03-01 on the black market is legit, and the guys who do use it at 5% get good results. But forget about CB-03-01 being more effective than the 5ar2 inhibitors or anti androgens we have now. The only thing good about CB is that it is *supposedly*  devoid of systematic side effects. But this is theoretical, and ironically when CB-03-01 get's systematic it could even pose more risks like cardiovascular effects as it is a steroidal anti androgen as cyproterone acetate and not a non-steroidal anti androgen.

But yes if it works as proposed and it has no side effects it will be a good thing for young guys and for prevention, because prevention is the best thing in AGA. Forget about CB-03-01 regrowing your hair any better than the current treatments we have now though.

----------


## Pate

> Guys how many times do i need to explain this. CB-03-01 isn't going to be any better than the current options we have. Yes indeed, it isn't going to be any better than dutasteride or RU in terms of effectiveness.* Furthermore the vehicle thing is broscience*. But it is quite logical to assume that when the binding of CB to the androgen receptor is weaker than RU that you need more than 1% of a concentration of CB to work.
> 
> 1% isn't going to cut it for prevention of AGA, if they will ever release a formulation it is going to be 5%. The CB-03-01 on the black market is legit, and the guys who do use it at 5% get good results. But forget about CB-03-01 being more effective than the 5ar2 inhibitors or anti androgens we have now. The only thing good about CB is that it is *supposedly*  devoid of systematic side effects. But this is theoretical, and ironically when CB-03-01 get's systematic it could even pose more risks like cardiovascular effects as it is a steroidal anti androgen as cyproterone acetate and not a non-steroidal anti androgen.
> 
> But yes if it works as proposed and it has no side effects it will be a good thing for young guys and for prevention, because prevention is the best thing in AGA. Forget about CB-03-01 regrowing your hair any better than the current treatments we have now though.


 I mostly agree with this but with a couple of qualifiers.

1) CB should be more effective than dut because as a topical it's being applied to the follicles directly, and it will also target both DHT and T. Fin doesn't actually reduce DHT in the scalp much at all (something like 30%) and although I haven't seen any data, there's no reason to suggest dut is much better. A better comparison is with RU, which it should be roughly equivalent to in terms of efficacy, except for...

2) RU is known to be unstable and my experience is that it is unstable even in KB beyond about six weeks. Only the guys who are mixing it from the freezer on a weekly basis IMO are getting the full effect. Those guys are mostly reporting that 5% RU is stopping their loss cold. While CB is a slightly weaker anti-androgen than RU, this is offset somewhat by the fact we should theoretically be able to use it in higher amounts, because it's safer.

The big risk for CB I think is getting it through the skin, being such a large molecule. I'm not fully convinced that the guys mixing it themselves have that problem solved, but Cosmo should hopefully be able to do it, because they did a lot of skin permeability tests.

What it all boils down to is that CB should be at least as effective, and possibly slightly more effective IMO, than fin, dut and RU, while being much safer in terms of sides. There is every reason to be optimistic IMO that 5% CB in an appropriate vehicle should stop the majority of MPB in its tracks with the lowest level of sides yet seen.

Regrowth will be minor except in some cases in the crown, but for a lot of the guys at lower NWs, that is a pretty good result. And for those of us on fin or dut, it's an outstanding result.

Valeant pulling out is not great, but I was worried that when they took over Medicis, they would kill CB altogether. Instead they have pulled out of the licensing deal and Cosmo have it back under their control, and they are obviously still keen to develop it. The key risk now is finding another partner.

----------


## Swooping

1. Yes you are right you can't compare a 5ar2 inhibitor with a anti-androgen. That said, as you say CB-03-01 is approximately as strong as RU, albeit a tiny little less strong from the literature we have now. 

2. I don't know if I can agree with you on this one. RU has been tested in ethanol solution by kane and he said that it was stable over 6 months. Then german guys on a german hairloss forum tested it in "bifon" hairloss solution and found out the RU was stable for over 230 days in solution. Furthermore enzulatamide which is highly similar to RU58841 in structure is given in a liquid oral suspension and is also highly stable (up to 2 years i think). I use RU myself for 10 daily batches and i have my powder at room temperature 24/7. Still works perfectly. I keep my solution at room temperature too.

I totally agree with you that we need something that doesn't have any side effects, and that is where CB-03-01 might shine. Don't get me wrong, *but prevention is very easy to do nowadays*. If you hop on DUT + RU, you won't bald. Problem is side effects obviously. But if you can handle them you can stop AGA in it's track very easy nowadays. But its just terrible to suffer from libido issues and other side effects to safe your hair. Not fair  :Frown: .

----------


## Notbalding83

Has cosmo ever once said that they actually have a working vehicle for alopecia? Thanks

----------


## Tenma

CB alone has the potential to slow down the balding process for many many years. Yes, it wont regrow hair on advanced norwoods, but for the first time people all over the world will have the chance to buy without restraints an effective topical antiandrogen.

In my opinion, the real game changer for long term prevention is the potential synergistic effects of using 5ar inhibitors with T & DHT blockers.  We will have the best of both worlds:  drastic reduction in DHT production and powerful antagonization of the remaining DHT/T interaction with the specific hair-follicle androgen receptors

One thing is for sure if this pans out:  the HT industry will suffer major losses in revenue. Well informed young people using CB + DUT will lower down the androgen stimulus so much that they will be able to keep most of their hair for decades.

----------


## ShookOnes

> Guys how many times do i need to explain this. CB-03-01 isn't going to be any better than the current options we have. Yes indeed, it isn't going to be any better than dutasteride or RU in terms of effectiveness.* Furthermore the vehicle thing is broscience*. But it is quite logical to assume that when the binding of CB to the androgen receptor is weaker than RU that you need more than 1% of a concentration of CB to work.
> 
> 1% isn't going to cut it for prevention of AGA, if they will ever release a formulation it is going to be 5%. The CB-03-01 on the black market is legit, and the guys who do use it at 5% get good results. But forget about CB-03-01 being more effective than the 5ar2 inhibitors or anti androgens we have now. The only thing good about CB is that it is *supposedly*  devoid of systematic side effects. But this is theoretical, and ironically when CB-03-01 get's systematic it could even pose more risks like cardiovascular effects as it is a steroidal anti androgen as cyproterone acetate and not a non-steroidal anti androgen.
> 
> But yes if it works as proposed and it has no side effects it will be a good thing for young guys and for prevention, because prevention is the best thing in AGA. Forget about CB-03-01 regrowing your hair any better than the current treatments we have now though.


 if it gets released for aa it would be safe because FDA phases.  Like I have mentioned, it will probably regrow in the same people who would have regrown from fin.

----------


## burtandernie

A lot of what your saying about CB though is pure speculation and guesswork. You compare it to RU but how can you even do that when so little is really known about either one. Just wait a few years so we can see the actual results. I dont think we know the strength of CB compared to RU yet and the side effects are a huge part of what CB will bring to the table. A lot of guys dont want to trade health for hair and your putting your health on the roulette table long term by drastically lowering DHT.

----------


## Tenma

> A lot of guys dont want to trade health for hair and your putting your health on the roulette table long term by drastically lowering DHT.


 Dut and Fin are safe for most men. The 10 year fin study confirms that. 

Also Glaxo is completing an aditional safety trial to pursue Avodart for hair loss.

----------


## ShookOnes

> Dut and Fin are safe for *most* men. The 10 year fin study confirms that. 
> 
> Also Glaxo is completing an aditional safety trial to pursue Avodart for hair loss.


 ya. and what's better than most..? all. check over bodybuilding/steroid forums and you'll see that every single gym rat that throws weight has mentioned finasteride slowing down muscle gains. topical > oral, i'm sick of brain fog and weak erections bruh

----------


## kobefan234

fin negatively affected my short term memory I have noticed. long term memory is fine.

----------


## sdsurfin

> ya. and what's better than most..? all. check over bodybuilding/steroid forums and you'll see that every single gym rat that throws weight has mentioned finasteride slowing down muscle gains. topical > oral, i'm sick of brain fog and weak erections bruh


 People throw around side effects like brain fog and memory loss and lack of libido on here like it's nothing. ITS YOUR ****ING BRAIN MAN. Would you rather have hair than have a working brain? Makes no sense whatsoever. 

 A study last year in Journal of Sexual Medicine noted "changes related to the urogenital system in terms of semen quality and decreased ejaculate volume, reduction in penis size, penile curvature or reduced sensation, fewer spontaneous erections, decreased testicular size, testicular pain, and prostatitis." Many subjects also noted a "disconnection between the mental and physical aspects of sexual function," and changes in mental abilities, sleeping patterns, and/or depressive symptoms.

I know this isn't all bullshit because I experienced it first hand, I really wanted propecia to work for me, but even at low doses it gave me serious non-psychosomatic sides like intense testicle pain and headaches and brain fog.  In my opinion there's no way anyone is taking this drug without doing damage, the ones that claim not to have sides are probably just being ****ed in incrementally small ways that they won't notice until later.  I think the ten year safety data is BS, that was mainly on much older men who are already crapped out sexually and mentally, and 10 years may not be enough to see the real damage on less sensitive people. I have 4 friends who have tried propecia and ALL of them got sides to some degree.

seriously, hair is not that important, to the young guys out there, stop playing with your two most important organs, your brain and your balls.  I'm pretty sure there will be a better maintenance drug out in the next 8 yrs or so, just get on minoxidil or if you really have to then maybe topical propecia, but seriously, this stuff is poison. you can't block a major enzyme that maintains your brain and body without doing damage, it's not possible.

----------


## Pate

> 1. Yes you are right you can't compare a 5ar2 inhibitor with a anti-androgen. That said, as you say CB-03-01 is approximately as strong as RU, albeit a tiny little less strong from the literature we have now. 
> 
> 2. I don't know if I can agree with you on this one. RU has been tested in ethanol solution by kane and he said that it was stable over 6 months. Then german guys on a german hairloss forum tested it in "bifon" hairloss solution and found out the RU was stable for over 230 days in solution. Furthermore enzulatamide which is highly similar to RU58841 in structure is given in a liquid oral suspension and is also highly stable (up to 2 years i think). I use RU myself for 10 daily batches and i have my powder at room temperature 24/7. Still works perfectly. I keep my solution at room temperature too.
> 
> I totally agree with you that we need something that doesn't have any side effects, and that is where CB-03-01 might shine. Don't get me wrong, *but prevention is very easy to do nowadays*. If you hop on DUT + RU, you won't bald. Problem is side effects obviously. But if you can handle them you can stop AGA in it's track very easy nowadays. But its just terrible to suffer from libido issues and other side effects to safe your hair. Not fair .


 Well I can only go on what I've read and my own personal experience. From my reading it seems to be well-known in the literature that RU is unstable in ethanol. In fact anecdotally it seems to be one of the major reasons it wasn't pursued.

My own experience seems to back this up but it's important to say that I have only tested this with mpbtreatments pre-mixed RU in KB, which I know some guys here are suspicious of (but it's only suspicion as nobody has ever tested it, to my knowledge).

What I found was that after I placed an order it took about 3 weeks to arrive. When I started using it, I had an instant (within 3 days) massive drop in sebum production on my scalp. I have an extremely oily scalp in the thinning area, and almost no sebum on the non-thinning area, which is obviously due to the effect of the androgens. The RU stopped it cold so that I couldn't notice any difference between the thinning and non-thinning areas. But after about 4 weeks, the oil slowly started coming back, and by the end of the 8 week supply, my scalp was almost back to its pre-RU level of oiliness. Then a new bottle would arrive it the oil would disappear again within a couple of days.

I am interpreting this as the RU losing effectiveness as it starts to degrade. But if other people are getting different results I am happy to listen, and I freely admit that mpbtreatments RU is not the final word in RU solutions. In your case, I think you have shown the freezing is not probably not really necessary, as long as you are mixing on a weekly basis.

I have always been interested in mixing it myself, but I'm a bit hesitant to important quantities of white powder from China through Australian customs, who are notoriously quick to confiscate. I actually sought out some labs here to do purity tests - I was going to send them some Kane powder and then some solutions at different ages to test how the concentration declines over time. But eventually I went off RU anyway because I wasn't getting any significant regrowth, so I never did it.

So for the moment I'm sticking with fin, and hoping for CB to be available in a few years. Because I have definitely noticed minor sides from fin and I don't like staying on a systemic anti-androgen.

Anyway, just my story to add to the mix.

----------


## rdawg

Hey guys, is there anywhere that ships to canada that I can buy this stuff from? Does Kane ship to Canada?

also is it worth buying right now or would you recommend waiting a bit? I was gonna buy it in sept when i get back from vacay in europe.

----------


## ShookOnes

> Hey guys, is there anywhere that ships to canada that I can buy this stuff from? Does Kane ship to Canada?
> 
> also is it worth buying right now or would you recommend waiting a bit? I was gonna buy it in sept when i get back from vacay in europe.


 
depends if you want to wait at least a year for a product that has a chance of not working at all unless cosmo's got their hands on a vehicle that they're secretive with

----------


## MancBoy

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...ationfinal.pdf

The above link to an investor report (pg 16) seems to show alopecia in phase 2 trials!! Can someone clarify I think someone has mentioned this maybe Europe trials.  However I would see this as accurate as being a listed company they are not allowed to lie to the market.  

The part that worries me is the statement of possible disposal of a the derma business (incl CB 03 01) to fund the colon business.  I know they state colon as a great growth potential but if you were sat on a cure for hair loss which would be worth billions and you'd have complete control of the market you wouldn't sell the product to fund a more competitive business where you aren't the market leader?

Just to end positive this quote from the annual results sounds good
"CB-03-01’s mechanism of action is based on the competitive activity between CB-03-01 and testosterone respectively dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for androgen receptors in the skin. CB-03-01 has a substantially higher cell-binding power than either testosterone or DHT, and will block the androgen receptor thus inhibiting
testosterone/DHT’s effects on the cell. CB-03-01 is devoid of systemic antiandrogenic activity, and has a moderate anti-inflammatory effect. In preclinical studies, CB-03-01 was shown to be rapidly metabolized by the skin to the
parent compound cortexolone, which is a physiological steroid lacking
antiandrogen activity and is safe. CB-03-01 has also been shown to have
good penetration through the skin, making it the first steroidal antiandrogen suitable for topical application."

Sorry I like being an optimist!!

----------


## sascha

> http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...ationfinal.pdf
> 
> The above link to an investor report (pg 16) seems to show alopecia in phase 2 trials!! Can someone clarify I think someone has mentioned this maybe Europe trials.  However I would see this as accurate as being a listed company they are not allowed to lie to the market.  
> 
> The part that worries me is the statement of possible disposal of a the derma business (incl CB 03 01) to fund the colon business.  I know they state colon as a great growth potential but if you were sat on a cure for hair loss which would be worth billions and you'd have complete control of the market you wouldn't sell the product to fund a more competitive business where you aren't the market leader?
> 
> Just to end positive this quote from the annual results sounds good
> "CB-03-01s mechanism of action is based on the competitive activity between CB-03-01 and testosterone respectively dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for androgen receptors in the skin. CB-03-01 has a substantially higher cell-binding power than either testosterone or DHT, and will block the androgen receptor thus inhibiting
> testosterone/DHTs effects on the cell. CB-03-01 is devoid of systemic antiandrogenic activity, and has a moderate anti-inflammatory effect. In preclinical studies, CB-03-01 was shown to be rapidly metabolized by the skin to the
> ...


 Yes its no secret. You can ask them and they will tell you that they are in phase 2. filling IND does not take that long and phase 2 trials can take as less as 18 month. Their phase 2 for acne was around 21 month, so yes why not being optimistic, its always better  :Smile:

----------


## ShookOnes

> http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...ationfinal.pdf
> 
> The above link to an investor report (pg 16) seems to show alopecia in phase 2 trials!! Can someone clarify I think someone has mentioned this maybe Europe trials.  However I would see this as accurate as being a listed company they are not allowed to lie to the market.  
> 
> The part that worries me is the statement of possible disposal of a the derma business (incl CB 03 01) to fund the colon business.  I know they state colon as a great growth potential but if you were sat on a cure for hair loss which would be worth billions and you'd have complete control of the market you wouldn't sell the product to fund a more competitive business where you aren't the market leader?
> 
> Just to end positive this quote from the annual results sounds good
> "CB-03-01s mechanism of action is based on the competitive activity between CB-03-01 and testosterone respectively dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for androgen receptors in the skin. CB-03-01 has a substantially higher cell-binding power than either testosterone or DHT, and will block the androgen receptor thus inhibiting
> testosterone/DHTs effects on the cell. CB-03-01 is devoid of systemic antiandrogenic activity, and has a moderate anti-inflammatory effect. In preclinical studies, CB-03-01 was shown to be rapidly metabolized by the skin to the
> ...


 That last sentence..good penetration thru skin?  A lot of forum members fears were that it wouldn't penetrate bc of their failed vehicle/effective on skin. This could be great news!

----------


## MancBoy

So how do I get myself in the trial!! haha so from phase two completing how long does phase three take??

I live in the UK so all these phases being USA does this actually have any relevance for me??

----------


## sascha

Well I am from Italy actually and don´t know that much either, but a quick search on the Internet said IND filling does not take long if the evidence is clear that it works...after phase 2 the company meets with the FDA and decide to continue or not. phase 3 can take up to a year/year and a half, but can also just be 6 month. Unlike many other members I believe that the FDA does not hold anything back that works. The FDA may be a bit more conservative than the EU or UK version, but thats it. I don´t think that you can participate, because the recrution-phase is over if they are already in the trial.

----------


## burtandernie

Wait wait people on this forum arent always right about their random guesses and predictions? Now you have me worrying they might sell it off to fund the colon stuff. That would be bad if cb 03 01 goes away so does the chances of ever getting a safe topical and there is not much if anything in the near future to look forward to for prevention besides this
It sounds like its a couple years away or so which is odd because I see people saying its 6 years away at least which I guess proves few people on forums really know what they are even talking about

----------


## FearTheLoss

They are talking about a spin-off or getting private placement for the derma portion of their company..not terminating it. Those are two very different things. They clearly aren't going to terminate a portion of their company that is a "rich pipeline" with "very good results".

----------


## ShookOnes

> Wait wait people on this forum arent always right about their random guesses and predictions? Now you have me worrying they might sell it off to fund the colon stuff. That would be bad if cb 03 01 goes away so does the chances of ever getting a safe topical and there is not much if anything in the near future to look forward to for prevention besides this
> It sounds like its a couple years away or so which is odd because I see people saying its 6 years away at least which I guess proves few people on forums really know what they are even talking about


 
would be 6 years if it wasn't already in phase 2

----------


## MancBoy

Yeah I  should of been clearer a spin off isn't termination but still they'd be handing profits to someone else in order to raise cash for their other business.  Therefore they value colon as a more valuable business (or less risk).  Also if you spin off it could take the company away from a strong cash rich business to a PE firm that maybe less willing to put in any extra cash.  But that sounds negative so to be positive it could go somewhere that would really push it!! So if they are in phase two how long do we think until market??

But my point about spin off is if you knew you had a winning lottery ticket, why would you share the winnings??

----------


## rdawg

sounds like this stuff is getting fast-tracked due to high safety.

Will be interested to see the results however, and we still dont know the true vehicle! Very happy we at least have a new alternative solution soon to be approved.

----------


## Xoxo

CB can already be bought, but we do not know which vehicle really works. 
If we can find out, which vehicle was used in the trials, we could mix it ourselves and would not need to wait for phase 2 trials, FDA approval, market release, etc.
Or we must find out ourselves, which vehicle works very well. 
But how could any of that be achieved?

----------


## ShookOnes

> CB can already be bought, but we do not know which vehicle really works. 
> If we can find out, which vehicle was used in the trials, we could mix it ourselves and would not need to wait for phase 2 trials, FDA approval, market release, etc.
> Or we must find out ourselves, which vehicle works very well. 
> But how could any of that be achieved?


 
it can't. so wait.

----------


## Borealis

Must not get excited about this! How are the acne trials getting on? Wasn't there potential for a product on the market (for acne) by the end of the year? I'm aware it's a cream based product that isn't appropriate for hairloss.

----------


## burtandernie

What really is the use if the acne version did come out? I mean what good is that really almost nothing about it is much relevant to MPB

----------


## rdawg

> What really is the use if the acne version did come out? I mean what good is that really almost nothing about it is much relevant to MPB


 Ease of access, could modify it slightly to make it able to penetrate the skin. Could also end up being cheaper etc.

----------


## rdawg

> Must not get excited about this! How are the acne trials getting on? Wasn't there potential for a product on the market (for acne) by the end of the year? I'm aware it's a cream based product that isn't appropriate for hairloss.


 1 more year or so until the acne trials are done, phase III is about to begin i'd assume.

----------


## JZA70

> Ease of access, could modify it slightly to make it able to penetrate the skin. Could also end up being cheaper etc.


 It's going to have a lot of ingredients in it that will make it useless as a topical.

----------


## Sogeking

Someone posted before, they plan to end phase 2 trials by the end of the next year. After that we just have to wait to see when will phase 3 start. If they enter phase 3 it becomes a lot more likely they will push it to market.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Yeah I  should of been clearer a spin off isn't termination but still they'd be handing profits to someone else in order to raise cash for their other business.  Therefore they value colon as a more valuable business (or less risk).  Also if you spin off it could take the company away from a strong cash rich business to a PE firm that maybe less willing to put in any extra cash.  But that sounds negative so to be positive it could go somewhere that would really push it!! So if they are in phase two how long do we think until market??
> 
> But my point about spin off is if you knew you had a winning lottery ticket, why would you share the winnings??


 
by the looks of things, also going off the email I received from them about a month ago, they are doing an 18 month phase II trial that is 6 months underway. In this case, if everything goes as planned, there's a year left of phase II and then we will see results/know vehicle I believe. Furthermore, this suggests that maximum, we would have 3 years until CB is publicly released. (12 more months phase II, 6 months give or take to get phase III ready, 12 months phase III, 6 more months until release, being generous)

----------


## Pate

> by the looks of things, also going off the email I received from them about a month ago, they are doing an 18 month phase II trial that is 6 months underway. In this case, if everything goes as planned, there's a year left of phase II and then we will see results/know vehicle I believe. Furthermore, this suggests that maximum, we would have 3 years until CB is publicly released. (12 more months phase II, 6 months give or take to get phase III ready, 12 months phase III, 6 more months until release, being generous)


 What did the e-mail from them say?

I think the presentation linked to in a previous post is saying that they are currently doing pre-trial preparations for the Phase II alopecia (enrolling study participants, finalising the vehicle etc). That's why it's about a third of the way through the Phase II column. I have not seen anything from Cosmo to suggest they have actually started giving patients the drug yet - has anybody else?

The spin-off is actually a good thing because it means they can launch a fresh round of funding and actually get the money to run Phase III for acne and Phase II for alopecia (as well as their new drug for genital warts, which maybe we will all need by that time after we start getting laid all the time with our new heads of hair  :Big Grin:  )

It's only a partial spin-off so Cosmo will still have majority ownership of it. It shows a real commitment by Cosmo to CB which is great. They are about the only company out there with both the money and the desire to follow their new drug through.

----------


## doke

To be honest cb may or maynot be better than ru and now you can even get premade at ru solutions and anagen, and the powder to make your own at this time its better than anything.

----------


## LMS

> To be honest cb may or maynot be better than ru and now you can even get premade at ru solutions and anagen, and the powder to make your own at this time its better than anything.


 Agreed.  Its saving grace is of course is non systematic activity. I get sides on RU.

----------


## MancBoy

> The spin-off is actually a good thing because it means they can launch a fresh round of funding and actually get the money to run Phase III for acne and Phase II for alopecia (as well as their new drug for genital warts, which maybe we will all need by that time after we start getting laid all the time with our new heads of hair  )
> 
> It's only a partial spin-off so Cosmo will still have majority ownership of it. It shows a real commitment by Cosmo to CB which is great. They are about the only company out there with both the money and the desire to follow their new drug through.


 Yeah I'm not saying it's fully negative I just mean that new shareholders tend to want one thing - PROFIT.  So if it's PE (who typically are the ones who are transacted in private placements) then if results aren't awesome then they can lose patients very quickly.  

But hopefully they go the route of IPO and I'll be buying in...try and make some money back from however expensive this product may be!! ha

----------


## FearTheLoss

> What did the e-mail from them say?
> 
> I think the presentation linked to in a previous post is saying that they are currently doing pre-trial preparations for the Phase II alopecia (enrolling study participants, finalising the vehicle etc). That's why it's about a third of the way through the Phase II column. I have not seen anything from Cosmo to suggest they have actually started giving patients the drug yet - has anybody else?
> 
> The spin-off is actually a good thing because it means they can launch a fresh round of funding and actually get the money to run Phase III for acne and Phase II for alopecia (as well as their new drug for genital warts, which maybe we will all need by that time after we start getting laid all the time with our new heads of hair  )
> 
> It's only a partial spin-off so Cosmo will still have majority ownership of it. It shows a real commitment by Cosmo to CB which is great. They are about the only company out there with both the money and the desire to follow their new drug through.


 
I posted it somewhere in this thread, but I asked them how it was coming along and they said they were well underway with phase II trials. 

Doke: lol, we don't have a single study to suggest any positive or negative affects of RU on hairless and other parts of the body, making a claim like this is a little outrageous.

----------


## burtandernie

There is a lot riding on this thats for sure. If this doesnt happen finasteride will be the treatment of choice for a long time to come.

----------


## ShookOnes

> There is a lot riding on this thats for sure. If this doesnt happen finasteride will be the treatment of choice for a long time to come.


 
yeah if a multi-billion dollar company with immense FDA experience and power can't produce something better than finasteride, little to no chance any other company can...

----------


## burtandernie

I hope it does because CB can scratch a lot of itches. Women should be able to use it, guys too young for propecia, and it could be used in combination with propecia. It would have a lot of benefits if it pans out. It might also be something to stop or prevent unwanted body hair or facial hair which dosages for MPB might be useful for. I am curious to see if that works.

----------


## ShookOnes

just curious, if CB0301 proves to be as effective as fin (ofc without the sides), how many of you fellas are planning on getting a HT?

----------


## Pate

> just curious, if CB0301 proves to be as effective as fin (ofc without the sides), how many of you fellas are planning on getting a HT?


 Not me, I have too much loss already for it to look natural. For me it's all about keeping the damn follicles alive (I'm only slick bald at the temples, NW3 pattern, but I'm miniaturised in a NW5 pattern) until the cellular treatments come out. If they never come out, well, guess I'll stay bald. I'd rather that than the obvious, thin hair look that comes with a HT that doesn't have enough hair to go around.

Fin has stopped my loss I estimate by about 95%, I'm hoping CB will push it up to 99% or more. Plus get rid of the minor fin sides I get.

----------


## ShookOnes

> Not me, I have too much loss already for it to look natural. For me it's all about keeping the damn follicles alive (I'm only slick bald at the temples, NW3 pattern, but I'm miniaturised in a NW5 pattern) until the cellular treatments come out. If they never come out, well, guess I'll stay bald. I'd rather that than the obvious, thin hair look that comes with a HT that doesn't have enough hair to go around.
> 
> Fin has stopped my loss I estimate by about 95%, I'm hoping CB will push it up to 99% or more. Plus get rid of the minor fin sides I get.


 

damn, not even pilofocus? On that thread Arista's been heavily hinting strong renegeration, don't lose hope yet!

----------


## FearTheLoss

Technically we should be able to use this within the next 16 months. The acne version will be released and phase 2 of alopecia should be finished so we will know the vehicle.

----------


## Arashi

> Technically we should be able to use this within the next 16 months. The acne version will be released and phase 2 of alopecia should be finished so we will know the vehicle.


 Why will we know the vehicle after phase II ? I thought they didnt have to publish that until market release ?

----------


## hellouser

> Why will we know the vehicle after phase II ? I thought they didnt have to publish that until market release ?


 Hopefully it gets leaked.

----------


## Paul73

Hellouser, please man could you let us know if you are still using CB-01-03 and if you are seeing results? If YES, what vehicle and which percentage are you using?

I tried to find some reports from you about it but didn't see recent updates.

I'd appreciate your feedback. Thanks!

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser, please man could you let us know if you are still using CB-01-03 and if you are seeing results? If YES, what vehicle and which percentage are you using?
> 
> I tried to find some reports from you about it but didn't see recent updates.
> 
> I'd appreciate your feedback. Thanks!


 I'm not using it. I sorta threw in the towel. Plus all the results I've ever seen of CB are dubious.

----------


## Paul73

> I'm not using it. I sorta threw in the towel. Plus all the results I've ever seen of CB are dubious.


 Thanks! Do you believe that you did not see solid results on it because of the vehicle you were using? Or do you think that CB is not as effective as we imagine?

----------


## hellouser

> Thanks! Do you believe that you did not see solid results on it because of the vehicle you were using? Or do you think that CB is not as effective as we imagine?


 Nobody has any method of verifying the results or lack thereof. Everything everyone has done so far has basically been just a shot in the dark. I'm not even fully convinced that the CB people are buying either from Iron Dragon, Kane or elsewhere is 100% real, I have my doubts.

----------


## WashedOut

If CB does come out then as far as preventative cures go isn't that pretty much ideal? I guess they could come out with some kind of one time treatment that you get and then you never lose hair.

But, isn't CB what people have been dreaming about for years? Something you put on your head and you never have to lose your hair. Obviously the final challenge after that is regrowth.

----------


## JZA70

I have an eerie feeling that CB has been way overhyped like everything else.

----------


## Paul73

> Nobody has any method of verifying the results or lack thereof. Everything everyone has done so far has basically been just a shot in the dark. I'm not even fully convinced that the CB people are buying either from Iron Dragon, Kane or elsewhere is 100% real, I have my doubts.


 It makes sense, Hellouser. Thanks for answering. It seems that we will have to wait the acne version come to the market and make our own hair loss version using this product. 
Just like some people do with azelaic acid gel and cream for acne. They buy it and apply to their heads.

----------


## Paul73

> I have an eerie feeling that CB has been way overhyped like everything else.


 The great benefit of CB is that it will be side effect free. So from what i have read, it will work similar or better than RU, but without side effects. That's a good reason for the hype.

----------


## ShookOnes

> I have an eerie feeling that CB has been way overhyped like everything else.


 how is it overhyped? It was made to be superior by cosmo. we're just waiting and discussing it.

----------


## burtandernie

Nothing is for certain until its finished and being used. Hopefully they see this through all the way to the finish line. This might be able to prevent mature hairlines and with few sides so you just use it for the fun of it in case you might lose hair and twice as strong as propecia? If it works out its near a cure for people looking to just prevent MPB. All the hype of course is just theoretical. We need to see how it actually works in large trials

----------


## WashedOut

RU and Propecia have proven preventing loss is possible. CB is basically just the first commercially available topical that we can use without sides. It should work considering it's not doing anything new it's just a question of how well and without adverse effects. 

Seems like it's not hitting any roadblocks in trials. All the other treatments seemed to draw out and delay their trials while CB is surprisingly going quickly.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah Im glad and hope we see it. I think a lot of guys would love a preventative treatment that is safer. It would really be good if it could be over the counter next to rogain that would really increase the sales and help drive down the cost.

----------


## TravisB

> RU and Propecia have proven preventing loss is possible. CB is basically just the first commercially available topical that we can use without sides. It should work considering it's not doing anything new it's just a question of how well and without adverse effects. 
> 
> Seems like it's not hitting any roadblocks in trials. All the other treatments seemed to draw out and delay their trials while CB is surprisingly going quickly.


 Still I don't think we'll see MPB version sooner than in 2018

And we can't be sure if we'll ever see it, because there is no guarantee that they will find the right vehicle for it.

Remember that they used iontophoresis in their Proof Of Concept study back in 2010, and that gave GREAT results - it looks like it's isn't good only for maintenance, but also for regrowth and hair thickening

Here is link to the study results - http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx



They tested it on 40 men

If they want to release it to the market, then it will have to be in some cream or lotion form

So we can't be sure if they will find the right vehicle, and if this vehicle will work as good as iontophoresis

Acne version will be released sooner, but it will most likely not work for MPB

----------


## sdsurfin

> how is it overhyped? It was made to be superior by cosmo. we're just waiting and discussing it.


 Might be a cool drug, but could def be overhyped.

For one, EVERYTHING has sides. No such thing as a drug that doesn't affect the body in multiple ways. Guaranteed some people will get side effects. I won't care as long as it doesn't destroy my sex organs or my brain like propecia does. 

Secondly, everyone is basing this "twice as strong as propecia" stuff on ONE trial that used iontophoresis, and only measured a small subset of men during a small amount of time. Propecia is proven to work and has been tried and true, and even still it doesn't do the trick for everyone.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but it's usually good to keep expectations low when it comes to drugs.  Replicel might still prove to be a good maintenance drug too, but they are both up in the air, and the real cure will come via stem cell regeneration, but who knows when.    Propecia really ****ed us all, these things would have been brought to market earlier if it weren't for its effectiveness.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah I agree until its all said and done no one really knows anything for sure. I think it has a lot of potential from what we have heard so far and its the nearest thing to market really in the next couple years. Minus CB I dont know what else is even coming in the next 10 years

----------


## WashedOut

> Might be a cool drug, but could def be overhyped.
> 
> For one, EVERYTHING has sides. No such thing as a drug that doesn't affect the body in multiple ways. Guaranteed some people will get side effects. I won't care as long as it doesn't destroy my sex organs or my brain like propecia does. 
> 
> Secondly, everyone is basing this "twice as strong as propecia" stuff on ONE trial that used iontophoresis, and only measured a small subset of men during a small amount of time. Propecia is proven to work and has been tried and true, and even still it doesn't do the trick for everyone.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but it's usually good to keep expectations low when it comes to drugs.  Replicel might still prove to be a good maintenance drug too, but they are both up in the air, and the real cure will come via stem cell regeneration, but who knows when.    Propecia really ****ed us all, these things would have been brought to market earlier if it weren't for its effectiveness.


 Everything has sides but maybe there's less risk, maybe the sides are less dangerous. Hell if it's even just as effective as propecia that's not bad. It's not going to be some magic potion but it could be a very good option when we basically have no choice but to take finasteride.

----------


## Pentarou

I genuinely despair that people seem to think that a topical alternative to finasteride, purchasable from pharmacies rather than the black market, _wouldn't_ be an incredible thing (if it passes trials, of course)

----------


## BDDFreak

I think cosmo is giving an update on the 30th of this month, so in 2 days.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

why has nobody bought an iso machine and CB and tried it?

http://www.iontocentre.com/iontophor...-Machines.html

----------


## stan

> why has nobody bought an iso machine and CB and tried it?
> 
> http://www.iontocentre.com/iontophor...-Machines.html


 perhaps for reason similar to yours

----------


## efedrez

> why has nobody bought an iso machine and CB and tried it?
> 
> http://www.iontocentre.com/iontophor...-Machines.html


 I have been wondering the same thing for a while, I wouldn't mind to use a machine once a week to apply CB if I can get the same results as I was getting with fin without risking my health.

If we could get our hand on a detailed procedure on how to do it we could even consider a community trial and see how that goes

----------


## lifelonglearning

I think the problem is most of them you can buy are like this and the patch wont work on your scalp 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMVAScMhUkU#t=47

I think you would need something like this one. But even then it may not work because long hair would prevent the current from going through your scalp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udhUMKx-OMs

----------


## burtandernie

I wonder if CB will finally be able to stop and prevent mature hairlines that seem to be beyond the ability of current treatments

----------


## lifelonglearning

From the half year report

Work on Proof of Concept trial for CB-03-01 in alopecia continues. It is target to be completed in 2015

----------


## Thinning@30

> Work on Proof of Concept trial for CB-03-01 in alopecia continues. It is target to be completed in 2015


 I'm confused.  I thought proof of concept was something that happened prior to Phase I.  On Cosmo's website, there is a bar chart showing the alopecia formulation of CB 03 01 as being in the middle of Phase II, with the abbreviation "POC" next to it.  I thought the drug approval pipeline went something like this:

 POC/preclinical -> Phase I (safety) -> Phase IIa (safety & efficacy) -> Phase IIb (dose ranging) -> Phase III (large scale safety) -> approval.  

Can anyone clarify the approval process for me?

----------


## efedrez

> I'm confused.  I thought proof of concept was something that happened prior to Phase I.  On Cosmo's website, there is a bar chart showing the alopecia formulation of CB 03 01 as being in the middle of Phase II, with the abbreviation "POC" next to it.  I thought the drug approval pipeline went something like this:
> 
>  POC/preclinical -> Phase I (safety) -> Phase IIa (safety & efficacy) -> Phase IIb (dose ranging) -> Phase III (large scale safety) -> approval.  
> 
> Can anyone clarify the approval process for me?


 I'm also confused, In Cosmos reports submitted today (http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F..._Half_2014.pdf)  it appear that they are conducting the POC for alopecia which will be completed by 2015 and it looks like this is also the end of phase 2 (120 patients against minoxidil and placebo)

If this is correct maybe we are looking at a potential phase 3 by 2016 and something that we can use by 2017.

Something is sure, Cosmo is making progress with CB (both acne and alopecia) and will try to get return over their investment as soon as possible, so the future might give us a good alternative to fin before someone else comes up with a more definitive cure

----------


## joel203

Anyone have any idea roughly when this will come out?

----------


## burtandernie

> Anyone have any idea roughly when this will come out?


 Yeah it seems no one really knows for sure except for some vague guesswork. So maybe 2017? I might need to give propecia a try soon to keep my hair until then so that would only be about 3 years of having to be on propecia. I guess you can always hope its sooner than 2017 but I have my doubts that if anything it will take longer

----------


## joel203

> Yeah it seems no one really knows for sure except for some vague guesswork. So maybe 2017? I might need to give propecia a try soon to keep my hair until then so that would only be about 3 years of having to be on propecia. I guess you can always hope its sooner than 2017 but I have my doubts that if anything it will take longer


 I hope it comes out soon and is effective! I am a NW2 at the moment, my hairs quite thick atm (maybe thinning slightly at the crown but nothing noticeable) but hairlines receeded a bit noticeably, although it can be covered up.  I really hope this comes out soon and is effective for many years so I can maintain- I got on finasteride last month to hopefully maintain for the next few years if possible (only 23 atm)

----------


## Pate

> I'm also confused, In Cosmos reports submitted today (http://www.cosmopharma.com/~/media/F..._Half_2014.pdf)  it appear that they are conducting the POC for alopecia which will be completed by 2015 and it looks like this is also the end of phase 2 (120 patients against minoxidil and placebo)
> 
> If this is correct maybe we are looking at a potential phase 3 by 2016 and something that we can use by 2017.
> 
> Something is sure, Cosmo is making progress with CB (both acne and alopecia) and will try to get return over their investment as soon as possible, so the future might give us a good alternative to fin before someone else comes up with a more definitive cure


 The POC will be a combined Phase I/IIa trial. After that they still need to do a Phase IIb trial. I assume that is why in the Pipeline Update chart in the presentation, the line for CB alopecia only goes halfway through Phase II, while the acne line goes to the end of Phase II. Acne will be ready for Phase III but alopecia will need a IIb trial first.

The weird thing is that IIa is usually the dose-ranging study, but they seem to already decided on the dose to use (5% anhydrous), so they seem to have done their dose-ranging in pre-clinicial. So I don't know what they will do with their Phase IIb trial.

----------


## TwoInchCircle

> FROM COSMO:
> Acne: Phase III to target to be completed H2 2016
> Alopecia: POC targeted to be competed end 2015


 I'm confused by the phrasing in the acne section: "Phase III to target to be completed H2 2016." 

Does it mean that their target is to be done Phase III by H2 2016 or are they insinuating that Phase Three + commercialization is targeted by second half 2016?

----------


## deuce

Bottom Line is CB for Hair will be out in 2018 or later and most of us will be bald by then.

----------


## joely

Desmond seems to think when the Acne version is out he will be able to come up with a vehicle for hair! I hope it's soon just quit propecia after three years because of sides! Needs something soon I don't think my array of natural supplements and I grow are gonna hold me

----------


## burtandernie

How do you buy the acne solution and get just the CB and then enough of it to make the MPB version? It sounds hard to do that if its even possible. I dont think anyone would use propecia if they had a choice of something safer everyone uses it because its the only good option. I thought bryan one time said that merk asked if men wanted topical or oral and everyone picked oral so there it is. Now everyone complains about it being oral because of sides. I guess people dont know what they want

----------


## burtandernie

Little off topic but what happened with ascj 9 that was similar to CB is that still coming out or did they stop because CB is going to do the same thing?

----------


## Swooping

> Little off topic but what happened with ascj 9 that was similar to CB is that still coming out or did they stop because CB is going to do the same thing?


 Same thing what happens with 70%+ of drugs in phase 2 mate. God knows what reason, could be from financial reasons to effectiveness. Nobody knows. The literature is really scarce on ascj-9 though. People have tried it and  had very mixed results (not good generally), stained like hell too.

----------


## burtandernie

Ah okay just wondered. Thats my biggest worry about CB is that it wont get funded and seen through to the finish line. There are lots of good things that never made it and its just never the same trying to make it yourself these things are just too hard to do your on own

----------


## Haircure

> Ah okay just wondered. Thats my biggest worry about CB is that it wont get funded and seen through to the finish line. There are lots of good things that never made it and its just never the same trying to make it yourself these things are just too hard to do your on own


  I doubt funding will be an issue since Cosmo pharmaceuticals seems to be doing very well, especially in their stock, which has increased dramatically over the past 5 years or so. And it's most likely the same for other treatments, because if they worked, then there would definitely be investors involved. So most likely treatments that have been postponed or canceled have likely been done so due to issues with effectiveness.

----------


## Duke

Cosmo has more than enough funds...so as long as THEY decide to push CB for hair loss, funding will not be an issue!

----------


## doke

has anyone tried iron dragon 1% cb and I mean twice a day usage for at least six months to a year?

----------


## burtandernie

> Cosmo has more than enough funds...so as long as THEY decide to push CB for hair loss, funding will not be an issue!


 Yeah this is my biggest worry now along with just the amount of time until we finally see it.

----------


## lifelonglearning

What the size and weight of the molecule?

----------


## doke

So no answer to my question so why are you guys not trying it then as without using for the length of time I have said its not worth keep going on about it.
If iron dragon have this topical I know its 1% but you could use more say 4mls a day or trial your own dose theres nothing to lose exceipt the cost but if it worked it would be worth it.
It I think would have to be used with another regrowth agent such as minoxidil as in when using ru.

----------


## Pelopeleon

There was not a report at the end of each month about cosmo research and finances? When will it be posted there?

----------


## lilpauly

> That, or perhaps the CB everyone's been using is fake. I don't have the answers.


 yes results have been pretty shitty !

----------


## lilpauly

> I'm not using it. I sorta threw in the towel. Plus all the results I've ever seen of CB are dubious.


  this!

----------


## lilpauly

> has anyone tried iron dragon 1% cb and I mean twice a day usage for at least six months to a year?


  cb must be used 2x day 5%

----------


## burtandernie

Just out of curiosity when you say CB must be used 2x a day 5% where do you come with those numbers and in what vehicle?

----------


## lilpauly

> Just out of curiosity when you say CB must be used 2x a day 5% where do you come with those numbers and in what vehicle?


 hi man its in the clincal trials. http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02279823


i talked to some1 from cosmo last year and he mentioned it was going to be a gel.

----------


## inbrugge

lilpauly, can we assume cb gives great results with no side effects if it is used the same way it was used in cosmo's first set-up with iontophoresis (i think it was once a week application! no?)

why not replicate that set-up? iontophoresis devicss aren't that expensive (200$-500$) and at one application per week with those results it'll definitely be worth it (and cb will be affordable at that low amount of usage).

in fact, iontophoresis can also improve other existing applications like minox, ru, dut, fin, etc. 

so why don't we find a way to replicate cosmo's first application? do you know anyone who can help us achieve this? maybe kane has some knowledge about this?

----------


## lilpauly

> lilpauly, can we assume cb gives great results with no side effects if it is used the same way it was used in cosmo's first set-up with iontophoresis (i think it was once a week application! no?)
> 
> why not replicate that set-up? iontophoresis devicss aren't that expensive (200$-500$) and at one application per week with those results it'll definitely be worth it (and cb will be affordable at that low amount of usage).
> 
> in fact, iontophoresis can also improve other existing applications like minox, ru, dut, fin, etc. 
> 
> so why don't we find a way to replicate cosmo's first application? do you know anyone who can help us achieve this? maybe kane has some knowledge about this?


  to be honest with bro I'm not that convinced with the ionto . I'm not even that convinced that much with the first trail they did . What do all these trials have in common ? They all grow trendnous amount of hair !!! It's to get investors .

----------


## lilpauly

look at this study 


Background

Latanoprost is a prostaglandin analogue used to treat glaucoma. It can cause adverse effects, such as iridial and periocular hyperpigmentation, and eyelash changes including pigmentation and increased thickness, length, and number. Latanoprost has been used to treat eyelash alopecia, but knowledge on its effects on human scalp hair growth is not available.

Objective

The primary objectives were to assess the efficacy of latanoprost on hair growth and pigmentation. The secondary objectives were to assess the effect on scalp pigmentation; investigate the treatment duration needed to affect hair growth, hair pigmentation, and scalp pigmentation; and assess safety of latanoprost.

Methods

Sixteen men with mild androgenetic alopecia (Hamilton II-III) were included. Latanoprost 0.1% and placebo were applied daily for 24 weeks on two minizones on the scalp. Measurements on hair growth, density, diameter, pigmentation, and anagen/telogen ratio were performed throughout the study.

Results

At 24 weeks, an increased hair density on the latanoprost-treated site was observed compared with baseline (n = 16, P < .001) and placebo-treated site (P = .0004).

Limitations

Only young men with mild androgenetic alopecia were included. The results may not be applicable to other patient groups. Choice of investigational site may have affected the results.

Conclusions

Latanoprost significantly increased hair density (terminal and vellus hairs) at 24 weeks compared with baseline and the placebo-treated area. Latanoprost could be useful in stimulating hair follicle activity and treating hair loss.

----------


## lilpauly

> look at this study 
> 
> 
> Background
> 
> Latanoprost is a prostaglandin analogue used to treat glaucoma. It can cause adverse effects, such as iridial and periocular hyperpigmentation, and eyelash changes including pigmentation and increased thickness, length, and number. Latanoprost has been used to treat eyelash alopecia, but knowledge on its effects on human scalp hair growth is not available.
> 
> Objective
> 
> ...


 *********With 6 months of 0.1% latanoprost in a 5/3/2 ethanol/pg/water vehicle on 16 living, breathing AGA men they achieved a 22% density increase********

----------


## lilpauly

that study is flawed . that study was from 3 years ago and it went no where .

----------


## burtandernie

> hi man its in the clincal trials. http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02279823
> 
> 
> i talked to some1 from cosmo last year and he mentioned it was going to be a gel.


 Ah okay so its this recent trial they were doing they said that.

----------


## lilpauly

> Ah okay so its this recent trial they were doing they said that.


 Yes man they conclude in summer

----------


## inbrugge

i see what you mean about the cosmo trial but ionto in general, you don't think it has a lot of potential? you can guarantee direct delivery so you can use to much lower amounts of application and dosage meaning very little side effects. imagine topical dut with no side effects.

----------


## lifelonglearning

Is their anyone currently using CB? If so can you state your source , vehicle and experience using it

----------


## chongmet

> Nobody has any method of verifying the results or lack thereof. Everything everyone has done so far has basically been just a shot in the dark. I'm not even fully convinced that the CB people are buying either from Iron Dragon, Kane or elsewhere is 100% real, I have my doubts.


 So.We are in late 2015. Have you tried CB anyhow? I really want to give it a shot, but for a proper period of time, Like 1 year. Have you heard about someone who used it? Is the vehicle really an issue?

----------


## burtandernie

Doesnt CB phase 2 trials finish this coming month november? Seeing some results with a good topical vehicle I wonder how well it ends up working. There is plenty of speculation out there that its too weak, or whatever but results are bigger than words

----------


## givemehairs

will this anti androgenic have less sides then dutas? Iḿ developing puffy nippels, I really can drop my dutas yet.

----------


## ShookOnes

> will this anti androgenic have less sides then dutas? Iḿ developing puffy nippels, I really can drop my dutas yet.


 its topical, so yes.

----------


## burtandernie

In theory this will have minimal sides especially compared to current stuff. It needs to be a reasonable cost, strong enough, and related to that a good vehicle so it gets where it needs to. This could end up safe enough to just take long before you ever lose any hair so prevention will be much easier since lots of people delay doing anything because of the risk associated with a life long internal drug.
I hope its strong though because you need some mighty powerful AA action to get good results like castration levels to actually prevent MPB. Hopefully it stops a lot of T as well as DHT.

----------


## rdawg

any kind of DUT or FIN replacement is welcome in my eyes,  I dont get any major sides from DUT but it's the kind of thing you dont want to be taking your entire life(it does mess with my libido the day after, but nothing major after that). 

We need something safe with the same if not better maintenance affects that DUT has.

----------


## burtandernie

> any kind of DUT or FIN replacement is welcome in my eyes,  I dont get any major sides from DUT but it's the kind of thing you dont want to be taking your entire life(it does mess with my libido the day after, but nothing major after that). 
> 
> We need something safe with the same if not better maintenance affects that DUT has.


 I agree. My hope is with CB since its actively being worked on, but many others have come and gone. There was RU, ascj 9, and others. I mean Ascj 9 was similar to CB and it has sat there without an owner for like 10 years. Could have been out by now if it worked. Companies just dont see the money or benefit I guess.

----------


## ShookOnes

> In theory this will have minimal sides especially compared to current stuff. It needs to be a reasonable cost, strong enough, and related to that a good vehicle so it gets where it needs to. This could end up safe enough to just take long before you ever lose any hair so prevention will be much easier since lots of people delay doing anything because of the risk associated with a life long internal drug.
> I hope its strong though because you need some mighty powerful AA action to get good results like castration levels to actually prevent MPB. *Hopefully it stops a lot of* T as well as DHT.


 
You want sides worse than fin it seems

----------


## burtandernie

CB doesnt cause any major known sides because its a receptor antagonist not a systemic enzyme inhibitor. Its an ideal AA it competes with T and DHT while in theory rendered harmless once it hits blood. Its theory because its not fully studied so its all guessing as usual. We wont know for years anyway but phase 2 ended in november this year.  It could end up having strong sides and it might not. No point in guessing but I think its chances are good its safer than what exists now and hopefully as effective

----------


## Dench57

The whole point of CB is they're designing it as a "side-free" receptor antagonist. It degrades into a harmless metabolite once it hits the blood stream, meaning no systemic side effects (which can happen with RU).

----------


## gchr

any updates? where to get

----------


## FearTheLoss

I've been using CB that I got from a private forum group buy for 4 months now. I've filled in my crown to the point where you can't tell I'm losing hair anymore where I was a nw3 before. No side effects at all. 

I had sides with RU and no regrowth. Minox didn't work for me. Fin stopped my shedding but no regrowth and horrible sides.

----------


## mrkite

> I've been using CB that I got from a private forum group buy for 4 months now. I've filled in my crown to the point where you can't tell I'm losing hair anymore where I was a nw3 before. No side effects at all. 
> 
> I had sides with RU and no regrowth. Minox didn't work for me. Fin stopped my shedding but no regrowth and horrible sides.


 Pics or it didn't happen.

Seriously though, that's awesome! Aren't you using 5% twice a day? 

And are you at all concerned about any long term side effects that could creep up on you down the road? We don't know a whole lot about CB after all.

----------


## doinmyheadin

> I've been using CB that I got from a private forum group buy for 4 months now. I've filled in my crown to the point where you can't tell I'm losing hair anymore where I was a nw3 before. No side effects at all. 
> 
> I had sides with RU and no regrowth. Minox didn't work for me. Fin stopped my shedding but no regrowth and horrible sides.


 Do you have pics? Getting desperate for a new treatment that works for thickening. Been using fin for about 4 years and dont want use crappy minox.

----------


## Keeper

> I've been using CB that I got from a private forum group buy for 4 months now. I've filled in my crown to the point where you can't tell I'm losing hair anymore where I was a nw3 before. No side effects at all. 
> 
> I had sides with RU and no regrowth. Minox didn't work for me. Fin stopped my shedding but no regrowth and horrible sides.


 pics

----------


## bananana

> I've been using CB that I got from a private forum group buy for 4 months now. I've filled in my crown to the point where you can't tell I'm losing hair anymore where I was a nw3 before. No side effects at all. 
> 
> I had sides with RU and no regrowth. Minox didn't work for me. Fin stopped my shedding but no regrowth and horrible sides.


 pics!  :Big Grin:

----------


## joshuk

> I've been using CB that I got from a private forum group buy for 4 months now. I've filled in my crown to the point where you can't tell I'm losing hair anymore where I was a nw3 before. No side effects at all. 
> 
> I had sides with RU and no regrowth. Minox didn't work for me. Fin stopped my shedding but no regrowth and horrible sides.


 what % are you using a day, im mixing 35mg into neogenic every night been doing this for just over a month no other treatments.

how long would you say before you noticed thickening off hairs, do you thing 35mg is enough to block the AR on scalp my hair is shaved to grade 0 so most of the CB should get to the hair

----------


## sdsurfin

In what vehicle do you apply the CB feartheloss? and also how much is it costing you?  Also is there any way to buy some at a decent price? Would love some help with this, can't use fin.  thanks

----------


## sdsurfin

Just tried to find CB on the Kane site with no luck.  Anyone want to help me get a hold of some? El duterino on another forum is reporting maintenance on 5% CB and says its about 4 bucks a day to use.  Seems worth it to me, especially as its not being released until 2021.

----------


## sdsurfin

also why is it taking CB so ****ing long to get to market? Is that what we can expect for SM and setipiprant too? Any scientists or docs on here can shed any light? 2021 seems crazy when they are wrapping up phase2, why does it take 6 more years to do a phase 3 and approval? SM is in the same spot pipline wise, will it take the same amount of time? In my opinion setipiprant is the most promising thing out there, and right now its looking like we wont get it until like 2025 based on how long CB is taking.

----------


## Keki

> also why is it taking CB so ****ing long to get to market? Is that what we can expect for SM and setipiprant too? Any scientists or docs on here can shed any light? 2021 seems crazy when they are wrapping up phase2, why does it take 6 more years to do a phase 3 and approval? SM is in the same spot pipline wise, will it take the same amount of time? In my opinion setipiprant is the most promising thing out there, and right now its looking like we wont get it until like 2025 based on how long CB is taking.


 it's not far away, the same shit for acne will be be out 2018 i think, so at least we will have something

----------


## doinmyheadin

> it's not far away, the same shit for acne will be be out 2018 i think, so at least we will have something


 The acne one is a much lower percentage. According to there website Breezular whatever it is called wont be ready for the public until 2021, which is bs how long it takes.

----------


## sdsurfin

naw the acne version is 1% and the aga one is 5%.  Not sure if there's some way to take the acne cream and re-concentrate it and make a topical, maybe.

----------


## sdsurfin

> I've been using CB that I got from a private forum group buy for 4 months now. I've filled in my crown to the point where you can't tell I'm losing hair anymore where I was a nw3 before. No side effects at all. 
> 
> I had sides with RU and no regrowth. Minox didn't work for me. Fin stopped my shedding but no regrowth and horrible sides.


 Aren't you also taking setipiprant feartheloss? If so it might be hard to know what's making the difference. Maybe both

----------


## Trouse5858

> also why is it taking CB so ****ing long to get to market? Is that what we can expect for SM and setipiprant too? Any scientists or docs on here can shed any light? 2021 seems crazy when they are wrapping up phase2, why does it take 6 more years to do a phase 3 and approval? SM is in the same spot pipline wise, will it take the same amount of time? In my opinion setipiprant is the most promising thing out there, and right now its looking like we wont get it until like 2025 based on how long CB is taking.


 That's easily the most depressing part about hair loss. The science is here but the government red tape makes the products unobtainable in the near future. Oh no, there might be an unwanted side effect!! Don't worry though, finasteride only castrates you permanently and is FDA approved and you can still buy cigarettes and dip, cuz 'Mericaa!!!! Only five more years guys! ☹

----------


## Paul73

> That's easily the most depressing part about hair loss. The science is here but the government red tape makes the products unobtainable in the near future. Oh no, there might be an unwanted side effect!! Don't worry though, finasteride only castrates you permanently and is FDA approved and you can still buy cigarettes and dip, cuz 'Mericaa!!!! Only five more years guys! ☹


 Thanks to finasteride many of us still have hairs. Finasteride does not "castrates you permanently", don't exagerate. Persistent sexual side effects are rare.

Of course a treatment without sides is needed, i for example use fin for almost 20 years. 

Só let's be patient, CB and other stuffs are close.

----------


## FearTheLoss

I used seti for 2 months and it stopped shedding completely. Didn't have enough to use it long enough to really judge efficacy. Then i started CB...it took about 4 and a half months before I started to see regrowth but i knew it was coming because I shed a bunch of hair. I started using 5% 2x a day in the custom liquid vehicle that the private forum sells. I don't know what the vehicle is made of, nor have I used CB in another vehicle but it's working for me so I'm pleased. Lately I've been using about 3.5%-4% 2x a day and it's still working well. I'm sure the quality vehicle has something to do with that.

SD I don't think the forum moderators here allow members to tell each other about other sites? hellouser is a member there though maybe he can help you get in.

I pay $150 a gram for CB.

----------


## sdsurfin

> I used seti for 2 months and it stopped shedding completely. Didn't have enough to use it long enough to really judge efficacy. Then i started CB...it took about 4 and a half months before I started to see regrowth but i knew it was coming because I shed a bunch of hair. I started using 5% 2x a day in the custom liquid vehicle that the private forum sells. I don't know what the vehicle is made of, nor have I used CB in another vehicle but it's working for me so I'm pleased. Lately I've been using about 3.5%-4% 2x a day and it's still working well. I'm sure the quality vehicle has something to do with that.
> 
> SD I don't think the forum moderators here allow members to tell each other about other sites? hellouser is a member there though maybe he can help you get in.
> 
> I pay $150 a gram for CB.


 thanks FTL.  How many grams do you use per month?  Also, is there any way I can get in touch with you and buy it through you? I don't understand these private forums and such, I don't have so much time to waste on hairloss sites.

----------


## CurlyBird

> I used seti for 2 months and it stopped shedding completely. Didn't have enough to use it long enough to really judge efficacy. Then i started CB...it took about 4 and a half months before I started to see regrowth but i knew it was coming because I shed a bunch of hair. I started using 5% 2x a day in the custom liquid vehicle that the private forum sells. I don't know what the vehicle is made of, nor have I used CB in another vehicle but it's working for me so I'm pleased. Lately I've been using about 3.5%-4% 2x a day and it's still working well. I'm sure the quality vehicle has something to do with that.
> 
> SD I don't think the forum moderators here allow members to tell each other about other sites? hellouser is a member there though maybe he can help you get in.
> 
> I pay $150 a gram for CB.


 I am also interested to hear about your dose/regimen/side effects.

----------


## Trouse5858

> I am also interested to hear about your dose/regimen/side effects.


 +1. Minox is starting to lose efficacy and I'm simply running out of time

----------


## warner8

is this the private forum that Swiss Temples mentioned in his blog, the one that practically no one can get into?




> I am also interested to hear about your dose/regimen/side effects.

----------


## warner8

would it be possible to buy a gram of  CB through you? 




> I used seti for 2 months and it stopped shedding completely. Didn't have enough to use it can  long enough to really judge efficacy. Then i started CB...it took about 4 and a half months before I started to see regrowth but i knew it was coming because I shed a bunch of hair. I started using 5% 2x a day in the custom liquid vehicle that the private forum sells. I don't know what the vehicle is made of, nor have I used CB in another vehicle but it's working for me so I'm pleased. Lately I've been using about 3.5%-4% 2x a day and it's still working well. I'm sure the quality vehicle has something to do with that.
> 
> SD I don't think the forum moderators here allow members to tell each other about other sites? hellouser is a member there though maybe he can help you get in.
> 
> I pay $150 a gram for CB.

----------


## FearTheLoss

I've been using cb now for about 5 months. I got it from the private forum and they have a custom liquid they made specifically for CB and I've had absolutely incredible regrowth in my crown. 

I used to be a nw3 with a noticeable bald spot in the crown and now I have a FULL crown. I cannot believe it. After coming to this forum for so long I have finally beaten hair loss.

----------


## bananana

> I've been using cb now for about 5 months. I got it from the private forum and they have a custom liquid they made specifically for CB and I've had absolutely incredible regrowth in my crown. 
> 
> I used to be a nw3 with a noticeable bald spot in the crown and now I have a FULL crown. I cannot believe it. After coming to this forum for so long I have finally beaten hair loss.


 Pics or it didn't happen!  :Smile:

----------


## x4342

> I've been using cb now for about 5 months. I got it from the private forum and they have a custom liquid they made specifically for CB and I've had absolutely incredible regrowth in my crown. 
> 
> I used to be a nw3 with a noticeable bald spot in the crown and now I have a FULL crown. I cannot believe it. After coming to this forum for so long I have finally beaten hair loss.


 
That's awesome to hear!  You deserve it.  I know you were struggling just a year ago.  
Things are getting better.  Even if the miraculous treatments don't materialize any time soon, it's nice to see that bridge treatments are becoming a reality.

----------


## Soonbald

isnt CB extremely expensive compared to RU? its like double the price..who can afford that? rich people? and I know which private forum you are talking about im a member there... but how much of CB do you need per day and how long does it last?? and how much did it cost like 300 bux?

----------


## dus

> I've been using cb now for about 5 months. I got it from the private forum and they have a custom liquid they made specifically for CB and I've had absolutely incredible regrowth in my crown. 
> 
> I used to be a nw3 with a noticeable bald spot in the crown and now I have a FULL crown. I cannot believe it. After coming to this forum for so long I have finally beaten hair loss.


 Congrats! Are there any plans on the forum on sharing information with the broader community?

----------


## Westonci

> I've been using cb now for about 5 months. I got it from the private forum and they have a custom liquid they made specifically for CB and I've had absolutely incredible regrowth in my crown. 
> 
> I used to be a nw3 with a noticeable bald spot in the crown and now I have a FULL crown. I cannot believe it. After coming to this forum for so long I have finally beaten hair loss.


 Holy shit dude, super exciting. Let us know what that custom liquid is!

Please Pm me or post it on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/tressless/

----------


## Swooping

I posted this on another forum because people asked questions in relation to CB-03-01, many found it helpful so;




> Does CB-03-01 work? Well it's a androgen receptor antagonist. Nobody reported results because nobody has a real clue on how to even approach things like pharmacokinetic properties of a drug. 
> 
> The whole community reasoned that CB-03-01 didn't work because of vehicle issues. I knew immediately by having a look at the properties that it was a concentration issue. To no surprise obviously COSMO is trailing 2 x 5% a day now. There are no reasons to argue that there was ever a problem with the vehicle the as drug as it is low in MW and is of lipophilic nature. 
> 
> Now your question is how well is CB-03-01 going to work? Based on the literature provided it seems to have the same activity towards the AR like cyproterone acetate which is a anti-androgen that is already on the market. 
> 
> My speculative reasoning would be that it's going to be just about as good as finasteride in terms of results, perhaps a little worse. 
> 
> The edge of CB-03-01 towards current treatments like finasteride *should be* by displaying a better side effect profile, not necessarily by providing better results. Eventually the real answer will come from their clinical trial results.


 This is really true. For anyone thinking this will be the magical "thing", sorry CB-03-01 isn't going to be that. The effectiveness is probably going to be around the same as finasteride is, hopefully without the side effects. It will definitely not be better than something like dutasteride in terms of effectiveness. 

Crown regrowth is cute but enough people show extremely good regrowth of the crown with finasteride (eventually coupled with minoxidil).

Sorry for being the "hope-crusher" again guys, but gotta stay objective here  :Wink: .

 Nonetheless it will be still great if it does display a better side effect profile. Although somebody already showed me literature that the HTPA axis was altered in some subjects and I believe this is at a concentration of 1%. AFAIK they should be done with their data collection soon.

----------


## Westonci

> I posted this on another forum because people asked questions in relation to CB-03-01, many found it helpful so;
> 
> 
> 
> This is really true. For anyone thinking this will be the magical "thing", sorry CB-03-01 isn't going to be that. The effectiveness is probably going to be around the same as finasteride is, hopefully without the side effects. It will definitely not be better than something like dutasteride in terms of effectiveness. 
> 
> Crown regrowth is cute but enough people show extremely good regrowth of the crown with finasteride (eventually coupled with minoxidil).
> 
> Sorry for being the "hope-crusher" again guys, but gotta stay objective here .
> ...


 Thats effectively a cure for me. I dont want to touch finasteride because of the libido and other hormonal side effects. And minoxidil because of the dark circles, facial puffiness and water retention.

----------


## Trouse5858

Would be a game changer for me right now because minoxidil is sort of at a stand still and I can't take too much of it on top because I'm also using it on my face to grow a better beard. Took fin for a month and I was practically asexual. 

@FTL so it regrew your crown, how about the temples/ hairline?? Any results to point out there or are you all set up front? Thanks!

----------


## finalcut

Swoop and Feartheloss, do you guys think a vehicle like neogenic would work with CB?

----------


## LMS

> I posted this on another forum because people asked questions in relation to CB-03-01, many found it helpful so;
> 
> 
> 
> This is really true. For anyone thinking this will be the magical "thing", sorry CB-03-01 isn't going to be that. The effectiveness is probably going to be around the same as finasteride is, hopefully without the side effects. It will definitely not be better than something like dutasteride in terms of effectiveness. 
> 
> Crown regrowth is cute but enough people show extremely good regrowth of the crown with finasteride (eventually coupled with minoxidil).
> 
> Sorry for being the "hope-crusher" again guys, but gotta stay objective here .
> ...


 
There's other treatments I'm more excited for that i'm sure you know of swooping.

But should those treatments not work CB would be my fall back plan, anti androgens were very effective for me both RU and dut  (dut insanely). Unfortunately both gave me unbearable sides. So should CB act as an antiadrogen without sides for me all I'd need is a 2000-2500 hair transplant to mt temples similar to yours, and I'd be "cured".

I think real question is not if CB is effective as an antiadrogen,  the question is what sort of side effects does it have?

Then there is the question of price of course. Though $60 a gram though not ideal is certainly doable for me. RU pricing would be the shiznit  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## burtandernie

The preliminary study they did in rats said CB was about twice as strong as finasteride. Also unlike fin/dut this competes with both T and DHT something that fin or dut dont do since they actually increase your T. Ive never been convinced that T plays absolutely no role at all in MPB. Its the most abundant male hormone by far, and its an androgen even if its weaker it still has some affinity for receptors.

----------


## jamesst11

well O.K... What is this magical "private forum" and who in their right mind would chose to withhold such a product from the general population of AGA sufferers?

----------


## d0072

@Feartheloss any information in regards to the serum you're using? link?

----------


## potato1987

Where can we buy it and when it will it be released?

----------


## doke

> I used seti for 2 months and it stopped shedding completely. Didn't have enough to use it long enough to really judge efficacy. Then i started CB...it took about 4 and a half months before I started to see regrowth but i knew it was coming because I shed a bunch of hair. I started using 5% 2x a day in the custom liquid vehicle that the private forum sells. I don't know what the vehicle is made of, nor have I used CB in another vehicle but it's working for me so I'm pleased. Lately I've been using about 3.5%-4% 2x a day and it's still working well. I'm sure the quality vehicle has something to do with that.
> 
> SD I don't think the forum moderators here allow members to tell each other about other sites? hellouser is a member there though maybe he can help you get in.
> 
> I pay $150 a gram for CB.


 Holy cow that's a lot more per gram than say ru and with no before and after pics its an expensive gamble.

----------


## Westonci

> Holy cow that's a lot more per gram than say ru and with no before and after pics its an expensive gamble.


 @Feartheloss can you PM me the link to the private forum. Im desperate to try something that works other than propecia or minox.

----------


## doke

RU58841 is stronger antiandrogen than cb that's why kane does not offer it as yet also the cosmo trials state that it needs to be a 5% cream for topical use.

----------


## Swooping

> Swoop and Feartheloss, do you guys think a vehicle like neogenic would work with CB?


 Perfectly fine, as long as you are able to dissolve the CB into the vehicle. 

Concentration is important. Cosmo is running 5%. 

Pound for pound RU58841 is probably stronger than CB-03-01 but that is a rough estimation on the literature provided.

----------


## rambo007

FearTheLoss, I'm dying to see pictures of your regrowth, are you planning on posting something?

I think that one thing about CB should be noted - besides being an anti-androgen it also has anti-inflammatory effect, from what I recall. We could also benefit from that.

----------


## finalcut

> Perfectly fine, as long as you are able to dissolve the CB into the vehicle. 
> 
> Concentration is important. Cosmo is running 5%. 
> 
> Pound for pound RU58841 is probably stronger than CB-03-01 but that is a rough estimation on the literature provided.


 Thx for answering

----------


## halloaa

How long is 1g going to last? How much would running CB cost each month?

----------


## potato1987

reply from an email I sent today....

​I am responding to your request for information.   CB-03-01 is undergoing Phase 3 studies for acne in US and EU. We expect to complete the Phase 3 program for US registration end of 2017 and expect approval in US late 2018/early 2019 depending on FDA review timeline.

Regards

Louise M. Dube, PhD
Global Director R&D
Cassiopea SpA
Mobile: 847-302-7336

----------


## HairBeWithYou

Just bought some lipogaine, wondering if that would be an OK vehicle for CB? I'm new to the whole CB thing. Looking to do CB 5% 2x/day + lipogaine to see if I get any results and I would be happy to post progress pictures.

----------


## potato1987

I live in the UK, would very much like to start CB but I don't know where to start, sourcing, mixing and application etc. All I can say is I am reliable and would love a group buy and a bit of advice really.

----------


## joshuk

I live in the UK and bought my CB from Kane in november using 35mg mixed into neogenic once a night, i have my head shaved so all the CB gets to my scalp. only been using about 2 months but seem to be holding hair fine and side effects a lot better than RU/FIN

----------


## finalcut

> I live in the UK and bought my CB from Kane in november using 35mg mixed into neogenic once a night, i have my head shaved so all the CB gets to my scalp. only been using about 2 months but seem to be holding hair fine and side effects a lot better than RU/FIN


 " side effects a lot better than RU/FIN". So there are mild side effects after all? Did you experience any regrowth? Do you think at an increased dose side effects would appear?

Also, Feartheloss, how many mg are you using daily? 100 mg?

----------


## joshuk

> " side effects a lot better than RU/FIN". So there are mild side effects after all? Did you experience any regrowth? Do you think at an increased dose side effects would appear?
> 
> Also, Feartheloss, how many mg are you using daily? 100 mg?


 yes i noticed if i went above 50mg a day i noticed side effects using neogenic, nothing drastic just mild libido effect. But then again neogenic is high ethanol solution and im also rubbing it into my scalp. As i said my head is shaved  so i am basically getting all the CB to the hair, if you have hair that is say 1-2 inch in length your going to loose a % of CB that gets stuck into the hair. So people using 100mg a day of CB with long hair are usually only getting say 70mg or so. well that is what i think could be wrong haha.

Now to do with regrowth i have not lost any hair since starting, in fact i think i shed some so that could be a good sign to come, only been on 2 months or so and Feartheloss said it took 4 months to see results so we will see

----------


## finalcut

> yes i noticed if i went above 50mg a day i noticed side effects using neogenic, nothing drastic just mild libido effect. But then again neogenic is high ethanol solution and im also rubbing it into my scalp. As i said my head is shaved  so i am basically getting all the CB to the hair, if you have hair that is say 1-2 inch in length your going to loose a % of CB that gets stuck into the hair. So people using 100mg a day of CB with long hair are usually only getting say 70mg or so. well that is what i think could be wrong haha.
> 
> Now to do with regrowth i have not lost any hair since starting, in fact i think i shed some so that could be a good sign to come, only been on 2 months or so and Feartheloss said it took 4 months to see results so we will see


 Cool, im gonna do the same thing, mx in neogenic. Gonna start with 50 mg a day and see if i get sides.

El Duterino also reported sides going above 35 mg of CB... But mild sides, nothing compared to RU sides he said.  He was getting sides with ru at 20mg.

I had amazing crown regrowth on fin. But horrible sides. Than i lost all the regrowth and a lot more hair when i stopped. I just want a drug without sides that allow maintenance, than i will be able to get a hair transplant and fix my situation. Right now im just watching my hair fall =(.

----------


## HairBeWithYou

What's a reputable source to purchase CB from? I haven't heard good things about kane. Where are others purchasing their CB?

----------


## joshuk

> What's a reputable source to purchase CB from? I haven't heard good things about kane. Where are others purchasing their CB?


 im using kanes  CB so is el dut and lynney on another forum seems to be working fine if you ask me, woudnt believe everything you read on the internet.Still would like to see this other CB though also theirs another poster getting sample from another lab in china which he is going to test, should hear back from him soon

----------


## Eire1980

> im using kanes  CB so is el dut and lynney on another forum seems to be working fine if you ask me, woudnt believe everything you read on the internet.Still would like to see this other CB though also theirs another poster getting sample from another lab in china which he is going to test, should hear back from him soon


 Hey josh

Is this premixed and you just apply?
How much is it monthly?
Any sides?

Appreciate the feedback..cheers

----------


## HairBeWithYou

> im using kanes  CB so is el dut and lynney on another forum seems to be working fine if you ask me, woudnt believe everything you read on the internet.Still would like to see this other CB though also theirs another poster getting sample from another lab in china which he is going to test, should hear back from him soon


 Couldn't find CB on the kaneshop website. Is it some sort of special order or do I have to specifically email them to get it? Thanks for your reply and help.

----------


## joshuk

> Hey josh
> 
> Is this premixed and you just apply?
> How much is it monthly?
> Any sides?
> 
> Appreciate the feedback..cheers


  it is not premixed you have to buy the powder and mix it yourself, much like RU
I paid $150 per gram but i bought 5g so it was cheaper so it is expensive about $165 for a single gram
yes i get sides if i use more than 50mg but that could also be because i have been using ethanol topicals for over 5 years so my scalp absorbs a a lot more i think, also my head is shaved to grade 0 while i try CB for 6 months

----------


## joshuk

> Couldn't find CB on the kaneshop website. Is it some sort of special order or do I have to specifically email them to get it? Thanks for your reply and help.


 email kane at koutingchina its not on the kaneshop, you have to use western union for payment

----------


## Seuxin

Don't buy CB from KAne ! We need to find it cheaper ! Don't buy it ! If we stop buying at kane, they will be forced to decrease prices !
*
WE NEED CB AS CHEAP !*

----------


## Follisket

Of course he only accepts western union. God forbid something actually worked in our favour. 
Anyone know why paypal isn't an option like with his other products?

----------


## champpy

I bought my seti from kane using western union. They actually sent it to me w no problem, although i was nervous about it, and still dont know if what i got was actually seti. 
But from my experience i wouldnt let the WU payment option be a deal breaker.
Its a bit of a hassle but i did recieve my shipment

----------


## iaskdumbquestions

Is there a reason why CB is so expensive? Is it the chemical composition which is expensive or the demand that is pushing up the prices?

----------


## Keki

guys what happened to the seti trial by users? Now it's been few month, does it work or not?

----------


## HairBeWithYou

> email kane at koutingchina its not on the kaneshop, you have to use western union for payment


 Many thanks.

----------


## hyong

how many grams of CB do the veteran on these fourm use a month?
4/5 grams? so probably more than $600 a month on cb?

----------


## machi

Hi guys. We know that CB -03-01 is very expensive. I would try it but I have no money to pay for it . We know the price of cb- 03-01 of Kane but somebody say it is not really CB (I dont know why). In private forums cb costs $ 150 per gram.
I want to ask a question. Is there any chance we get CB cheaper ? Is there no possibility of negotiating the price with a laboratory for CB cheaper and everyone can try? I think that if the price of CB were cheaper, 50 ñ$ per gram for example, many people would buy it. Has anyone tried to negotiate with some lab?
I'm sure that CB -03-01 works well but only if you use 5% twice daily. So many people could buy cb and try it and laboratories would earn more money because a lot more people would buy it. If  buy cb 10 people now, how many people would buy if cb out cheaper ? ¿ Thousands , millions? everyone would benefit .
Any suggestions ? thanks.

----------


## rdawg

> Hi guys. We know that CB -03-01 is very expensive. I would try it but I have no money to pay for it . We know the price of cb- 03-01 of Kane but somebody say it is not really CB (I dont know why). In private forums cb costs $ 150 per gram.
> I want to ask a question. Is there any chance we get CB cheaper ? Is there no possibility of negotiating the price with a laboratory for CB cheaper and everyone can try? I think that if the price of CB were cheaper, 50 ñ$ per gram for example, many people would buy it. Has anyone tried to negotiate with some lab?
> I'm sure that CB -03-01 works well but only if you use 5% twice daily. So many people could buy cb and try it and laboratories would earn more money because a lot more people would buy it. If  buy cb 10 people now, how many people would buy if cb out cheaper ? ¿ Thousands , millions? everyone would benefit .
> Any suggestions ? thanks.


 Honestly I dont know why you guys are worrying so much about this when the phase II trials will be over soon.

wait until we see the results of those trials(which is using a very expensive high 5% dosage) then you can get the idea of actually buying it if it works.

no use dropping 3000 for a years supply only to find out in a few months that it's no better than Finasteride, we have no idea yet(it could be much better!)

----------


## Trouse5858

The results of the phase II trials are essentially moot if the drug won't be on the market for another three years though. That's why people go through the trouble and put up the money to experiment. For guys like me who can't take fin because of the sexual sides, three years might as well be ten because I'm losing ground at a rapid pace and it sucks. Honesty the fact that there's nothing that can do roughly the equivalent of fin than doesn't have the single worst side effect there is astounds me. Starting to feel pretty f-n hopeless

----------


## burtandernie

Is it a bit sad there is an ideal chemical for MPB sitting in a lab somewhere when so many people could use it now. Yet we have to wait half a decade almost to ever get it due to hoops and long drawn out timelines

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## machi

Hi guys. We know that Cosmo is studying CB -03-01 5% twice a day, but if you know what Cosmo is considering using it every day or only 3 times a week? I seemed to read Cosmo is using 3 times a week, do you know anything about this?
On the other hand , someone using CB -03-01 can comment on how it goes ?

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## jamesst11

> Is it a bit sad there is an ideal chemical for MPB sitting in a lab somewhere when so many people could use it now. Yet we have to wait half a decade almost to ever get it due to hoops and long drawn out timelines


 ^THIS!!! We have to take matters into our own hands.  If all of us used our connections and resources together, we could get a lab to synthesize a ****tail that would not only kill all androgens in the scalp, but block all AR's... I have no doubt in my mind we could do this.  We could also find a way, somehow, someway... to make it affordable.  It's time we start making some serious phone calls.

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## burtandernie

There should just be a stickied thread on RU and CB. How to make it, most reliable place to actually buy it, and so on. Over and over someone else asks the basic questions about them. RU and CB are really the alternative or future treatment if fin fails you or even as another layer of attack. You cant ignore testosterone IMO and even fighting DHT at that level helps make up for the way things like propecia work. They compliment each other.
I know there are threads like this already, but they get buried and get too long.

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## maxout777

> There should just be a stickied thread on RU and CB. How to make it, most reliable place to actually buy it, and so on. Over and over someone else asks the basic questions about them. RU and CB are really the alternative or future treatment if fin fails you or even as another layer of attack. You cant ignore testosterone IMO and even fighting DHT at that level helps make up for the way things like propecia work. They compliment each other.
> I know there are threads like this already, but they get buried and get too long.


 Completely off topic and sorry to hijack thread, please ignore for everyone else.

Hey burtandernie, just from doing some research by searching on the forum, I found you had a similar experience to me with saw palmetto, do you mind posting on my topic your experience/results? I would pm you but I don't think I can....it would really mean a lot!

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## Tomtom21

CB preliminary results are out and they are disappointing.... http://www.cassiopea.com/~/media/Fil...results-v2.pdf

gotta pray samumed has the wonder drug now

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## MindfluX

> CB preliminary results are out and they are disappointing.... http://www.cassiopea.com/~/media/Fil...results-v2.pdf


 It's no holy grail, but the results on page 21 don't look that disappointing to me. They continue to start Phase 2 and there's no Go/No-Go decision for CB-03-01 now.

Can you explain what you find dissappointing? Did you expect better results?

----------


## rdawg

> It's no holy grail, but the results on page 21 don't look that disappointing to me. They continue to start Phase 2 and there's no Go/No-Go decision for CB-03-01 now.
> 
> Can you explain what you find dissappointing? Did you expect better results?


 Well the results look equivalent to Minoxidil(almost exact actually) which is definitely dissapointing. It has an affect but a very weak one. Although in the drug's defence they are doing a dose ranging study next so a higher dose could prove to be much better.

Really though I dont think anyone expected much from this one, it was seen as a similar product to Finasteride without the sides, which was never going to cause alot of hairgrowth. 

SM, Histogen and Replicel were always more interesting as they actually talk about growth, not just maintenence.

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## TravisB

Even if CB will work like Finasteride and stop hairloss but without the sides and messing with hormones, it will still be great and much better than what we have now

But it will probably be released on the market in 2020 - 2021 at the earliest, judging by the pipeline, so it's still a long time left...

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## MindfluX

> Although in the drug's defence they are doing a dose ranging study next so a higher dose could prove to be much better.


 I am familiar with research chemicals, but none of these compounds have an effect on the hair. Effects are mostly lineair, but some are logarithmic: a double amount of compound multiplies the effect eight times for instance.

You never know ;-)

Do you know the amount they used now?

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## potato1987

I was a bit hopeful it would do maintenance but the results show some people worse off? PER-PROTOCOL (N=23) (N=25) (N=25) 0.2213
                                                CB              MIN          Vehicle
-1=SLIGHTLY DECREASED 5 ( 21.7%) 1 ( 4.0%) 8 ( 32.0%) .
-2=MODERATELY DECREASED 1 ( 4.3%) 2 ( 8.0%) 2 ( 8.0%) .
-3=GREATLY DECREASED 0 ( 0.0%) 1 ( 4.0%) 0 ( 0.0%)

any thoughts?

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## Tenma

This is from their recent press release:

"As for mean increase in TAHC at Month 6 (12.70 Breezula® vs. 18.8 Minoxidil®), it should be considered that the treatment per protocol was 6 months and that it is known that antiandrogens (such as Propecia®) show maximum efficacy at 12 months, while it is also known that Minoxidil® has its efficacy peak at 4 months, so the data were as expected. 

Given the patients sample size (30 per group) the study was not powered to show statistical superiority at this stage.

Diana Harbort, CEO, said: “I am more than happy with these results. Our objective is to develop an efficacious topical antiandrogen product without limiting side effects and with the ability of being used by both men and women. The clinical data are in line with our hopes. Now we are very much looking forward to taking Breezula® into phase II dose ranging studies as quickly as possible”.

----------


## Tenma

I agree with the company. 6 months is too early for antiandrogen to display maximum effect

But we must keep in mind what cb really is: a topical androgen antagonist, nothing more, nothing less...

Even castration was unable to regrow hair on most of the eunuchs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13711016

I think cb real value comes when combined with Dut or Fin (alpa reductase inhibition) , because it works by a complementary mechanism (receptor blockage)

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## joshuk

the fact that CB-03-01 regrew hair is impressive since anti androgens are for keeping hair not regrowth. i have just started back on CB at 40-50mg a day, so i guess i will report back in 6 months then. im not using minox but i am using chemical's wnt/b catean findings found further down on the cutting edge page.

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## machi

Joshuk , Can you explain your treatment? How long have you been with CB -03-01 ? Do any effect , less hair loss ? Can you explain what use about wnt/b catean? I was hopeful that cb worked but after yesterday's results I have doubts. I need to use any drugs to keep my hair .
Does anyone use CB some time with good results ?

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## burtandernie

An AA that helps both men and women with few probably minor sides? Sounds like a for sure winner to me. Also you have to wonder could it be used to stop or prevent body hair? Im curious if someone applied RU to their beard what happens? In theory RU or CB should do something there or prevent it from happening. RU and CB both compete with T not just DHT so you would expect it to stop or slow beard hair/body hair too

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## burtandernie

Ah they released new results? I wouldnt throw out CB just yet. The dosing might yield better results, it works on women, and it might stack with fin to combat DHT from two angles doing a much better job than fin or even dut alone. If it has any efficacy I think they should keep going with it. Hopefully the dosing will increase the results. Also like they said it might take 12 months, and once MPB starts its arguable if an AA still for sure stops it. You need to take it before it gets going, but everyone is so worried about sides from propecia they delay it until absolutely needed. This might solve that
I dont think anyone ever expected results unlike fin or dut but CB is way safer to use long term.

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## Guildenstern

The results are a huge step backwards. It was barely as efficient as Minox.

While i am always happy to see something new, it just feels too weak. A mean increase in 13 hairs over the whole period of the study?
I guess you could indeed use this in synergy with Minox to achieve a better effect. Customers will love to now smear 2 topicals on their heads for a mean increase of 25% hair density. yay.

I still don't really understand why they had to switch to a lousy 'vehicle'. The results in their POC study using iontophoresis were really strong - really, really strong. Yet again, nobody will buy a compound, a machine, and use a time consuming and expensive procedure to keep their hair. At least nobody who's right in the head. I have no dount anyone here would do it. Personally, i'd do it instantly.

And let's not forget this whole thing is still a grand mystery. Wasn't there a chemist or biologist who claimed it would be exceptionally hard to get this specific molecule into your dermis using just iontophoresis, because it had no loading site or something? Now they have encapsulated their pure-golden molecule into a super crappy cream or whatever-based vehicle that isn't working. Well done.

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## Trouse5858

lol 13 hairs. Impossible to argue its worth smearing shit on your head evryday for such an embarrassing result

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## Seuxin

Warning, they used at 5%, but maybe CB-03-01 should be used at 7-10%.
If CB is really able to inhibe AR Receptor it should work !

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## Xoxo

> lol 13 hairs. Impossible to argue its worth smearing shit on your head evryday for such an embarrassing result


 Well, isn't the focus on maintaining hair instead of regrowth? Then, it might be judged too quickly. Maybe you can keep your hair better with CB than with Minox in the long run. But I'm no expert. Someone with more knowledge should anser on that.

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## Tenma

> Well, isn't the focus on maintaining hair instead of regrowth? Then, it might be judged too quickly. Maybe you can keep your hair better with CB than with Minox in the long run. But I'm no expert. Someone with more knowledge should anser on that.


 Antiandrogens show its true benefits at the 8-12 months mark.

There is broad consensus on that.

The dose ranging study will provide good evidence about what breezula can really do for us.

That said, i think RU is at least as good as CB, so im not really that nterested about the CB

----------


## burtandernie

Lets see other dosage results. Lets see results at 12 month mark before condemning the stuff as worthless. Since its topical you might be able to achieve much stronger doses than would be possible going internal. I will say this I do think the vehicle plays a HUGE role in all these topical results. Topical spiro might stop MPB dead in its tracks if delivered properly. The thing is there are topical delivery systems that are very very good so I wonder if they used one of those or tried different ones to compare. That one company was delivering igf-1 with some amazing new topical delivery system why not use that?
No one has any clue if RU is safe though. Thats a pretty big issue. There are androgen receptors all over your entire body even organs maybe. Do you want receptors all over getting shut down that arent in your scalp? Could cause major issues over many years who knows, but its hard to believe it doesnt go systemic at all

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## Follisket

> Well, isn't the focus on maintaining hair instead of regrowth?


 In 2016? Definitely. But in 2022 ... ?

----------


## Keki

i think it's not worthless, is something that can help us keep our follicle alive, some of us want a complete cure with a nw1 hairline, other just want to keep a hairline, it's different and cb if priced well can help us achieve a better result

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## iaskdumbquestions

> i think it's not worthless, is something that can help us keep our follicle alive, some of us want a complete cure with a nw1 hairline, other just want to keep a hairline, it's different and cb if priced well can help us achieve a better result


 It's worthless for US because its release date is 2021!! (If numbers had a caps-lock '2021' would be in caps).

Please Please Please give us something better.

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## burtandernie

Yeah they should do trials in different country with a fast approval process than we could just import it here and use it. A lot better than waiting 6 years even if it might be kind of pricey to import it at least then you got a reliable supplier. Approval in a different country is way faster and cheaper to do. Since its cosmetic insurance covering it is kind of irrelevant.

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## joshuk

well everyone can speculate and such, give me 6 months and i will report about my CB usage (early if things improve) its too early to write off any treatment which has such a small user group using it consistently and at a dosage nearer the trials. I was using RU in 2010 way before a lot of people had even heard of it let alone used it, but thanks to a small group of people trialing it and posting results its now a viable treatment if you cannot use FIN or DUT.

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## joshuk

> Joshuk , Can you explain your treatment? How long have you been with CB -03-01 ? Do any effect , less hair loss ? Can you explain what use about wnt/b catean? I was hopeful that cb worked but after yesterday's results I have doubts. I need to use any drugs to keep my hair .
> Does anyone use CB some time with good results ?


 only been using it about a month then stopped for 2 weeks as was in hospital so i could not use any, but now im back on it and will give it a solid 6 months and post back results. im not using any other DHT blocking treatment no fin or dut so if it works we will know its the CB

----------


## lifelonglearning

http://www.cassiopea.com/~/media/Fil...Transcript.pdf

lots of great info in the transcript on CB Breezula

----------


## lifelonglearning

http://www.cassiopea.com/~/media/Fil...Transcript.pdf

lots of great info in the transcript on CB Breezula

they will be releasing rest of results some time in May

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## BaldingMetalhead

Hey guys!

Good news for those using CB, or considering adding it: there is a group buy going on on HLH! 

$75 per gram, minimum order 5g. It is from Kane. We're gonna test it.

We are missing 38g, so it's still open. Is anybody interested?

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## BaldingMetalhead

Hey guys!

Good news for those using CB, or considering adding it: there is a group buy going on on HLH! 

$75 per gram, minimum order 5g. It is from Kane. We're gonna test it.

We are missing 38g, so it's still open. Is anybody interested?

----------


## BaldingMetalhead

Sorry for double post.

----------


## Trouse5858

Depends...has any member of any forum had documented success with CB or is this like the first frontier of guys trying it out?? What is the breakdown for how long 5 grams can last you too?  If it's 6 months or so I'll consider it but if it's something ridiculous like 1 month I'm out for sure.

----------


## BaldingMetalhead

There are quite a few people using it on HLH, honestly it gets mixed reports. But considering that most of the guys trying out experimentals are those with too aggressive MPB for finasteride to help, the answer can be - obviously - too aggressive MPB.

In fact I got mild antiandrogenic sides @ 10mg in Neogenic, which suggests that it's powerful (I'm crazy-sensitive to AAs though, can't even use the S5 cream). So I tried 5mg for 2 weeks, now back on 10mg without sides, and I'm about to bump it up further. This is not the norm though, most guys don't get any sides up to 20-35mg.

Most guys seem to use it between 15-25mg per day, and we have El_Duterino who is maintaining for 8 months now @ 20mg in Neo. Just make sure you use growth stimulants too (like minox and/or stemox), and a highly penetrative vehicle (Neogenic or eth/pg with high pg content). For those with too aggressive MPB, still can be a good adjunct.

According to Cosmo's studies, CB is beast. The only concern we may have is the authenticity of Kane's stuff. That's the reason we are going to test it.

----------


## hwezdarik

> There are quite a few people using it on HLH, honestly it gets mixed reports. But considering that most of the guys trying out experimentals are those with too aggressive MPB for finasteride to help, the answer can be - obviously - too aggressive MPB.
> 
> In fact I got mild antiandrogenic sides @ 10mg in Neogenic, which suggests that it's powerful (I'm crazy-sensitive to AAs though, can't even use the S5 cream). So I tried 5mg for 2 weeks, now back on 10mg without sides, and I'm about to bump it up further. This is not the norm though, most guys don't get any sides up to 20-35mg.
> 
> Most guys seem to use it between 15-25mg per day, and we have El_Duterino who is maintaining for 8 months now @ 20mg in Neo. Just make sure you use growth stimulants too (like minox and/or stemox), and a highly penetrative vehicle (Neogenic or eth/pg with high pg content). For those with too aggressive MPB, still can be a good adjunct.
> 
> According to Cosmo's studies, CB is beast. The only concern we may have is the authenticity of Kane's stuff. That's the reason we are going to test it.


 I am super curious about test results  :Smile:

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## Sanchez123

Hi Guys,
I am looking for users who are using CB for over 6 months now and still using it. I can't use fin.
How are your results so far? I hope you can give a small update to help me out.

Thanks  :Smile: !

----------


## RU58841

> There are quite a few people using it on HLH, honestly it gets mixed reports. But considering that most of the guys trying out experimentals are those with too aggressive MPB for finasteride to help, the answer can be - obviously - too aggressive MPB.
> 
> In fact I got mild antiandrogenic sides @ 10mg in Neogenic, which suggests that it's powerful (I'm crazy-sensitive to AAs though, can't even use the S5 cream). So I tried 5mg for 2 weeks, now back on 10mg without sides, and I'm about to bump it up further. This is not the norm though, most guys don't get any sides up to 20-35mg.
> 
> Most guys seem to use it between 15-25mg per day, and we have El_Duterino who is maintaining for 8 months now @ 20mg in Neo. Just make sure you use growth stimulants too (like minox and/or stemox), and a highly penetrative vehicle (Neogenic or eth/pg with high pg content). For those with too aggressive MPB, still can be a good adjunct.
> 
> According to Cosmo's studies, CB is beast. The only concern we may have is the authenticity of Kane's stuff. That's the reason we are going to test it.


 What kinds of side effects did you get from S5 cream?

----------


## Sanchez123

> only been using it about a month then stopped for 2 weeks as was in hospital so i could not use any, but now im back on it and will give it a solid 6 months and post back results. im not using any other DHT blocking treatment no fin or dut so if it works we will know its the CB


 Hi Joshuk, how is it going?
I just ordered CB from Wuhan. What kind of vehicle are you using now?

If not NEO anymore, why not?

----------


## WangMQ

> I am super curious about test results


 A single test result doesn't mean anything. Kane usually send authentic stuff in group buys but scams on individual buys. You never know what you'll get next time.

----------


## WangMQ

* double post

----------


## mustang2

Well, if anybody's interested I will be testing CB-03-01 at 7.5% and have I already have my baseline bloodwork here to asses whether it causes HTPA or Adrenal shutdown as it did on 10% of users during phase II.

I will be using a alcohol based solution per their patent and CB has been tested by UNI lab to confirm purity of 99%.

I'm not even going to asses hair loss right now as my main concern is my endocrine system. If causing shutdown then this is not a viable solution unless you are on TRT and take DHEA etc...

I will also try to measure my circulating androgens via a scalp biopsy after a month of use.

I guess this is the only way to get this done.

----------


## mustang2

Well, if anybody's interested I will be testing CB-03-01 at 7.5% and have I already have my baseline bloodwork here to asses whether it causes HTPA or Adrenal shutdown as it did on 10% of users during phase II.

I will be using a alcohol based solution per their patent and CB has been tested by UNI lab to confirm purity of 99%.

I'm not even going to asses hair loss right now as my main concern is my endocrine system. If causing shutdown then this is not a viable solution unless you are on TRT and take DHEA etc...

I will also try to measure my circulating androgens via a scalp biopsy after a month of use.

I guess this is the only way to get this done.

----------


## zephyrprime

Keep us updated.  Do you find that it is better than ru?

----------


## iwannakeephair1674

> Well, if anybody's interested I will be testing CB-03-01 at 7.5% and have I already have my baseline bloodwork here to asses whether it causes HTPA or Adrenal shutdown as it did on 10% of users during phase II.
> 
> I will be using a alcohol based solution per their patent and CB has been tested by UNI lab to confirm purity of 99%.
> 
> I'm not even going to asses hair loss right now as my main concern is my endocrine system. If causing shutdown then this is not a viable solution unless you are on TRT and take DHEA etc...
> 
> I will also try to measure my circulating androgens via a scalp biopsy after a month of use.
> 
> I guess this is the only way to get this done.


 Thank you for what you're doing... please keep us posted!

----------


## iwannakeephair1674

Another thing I'm curious about... is that CB-03-01 is steroidal, which I would worry about that effecting the Androgen Receptor in some way to potentially cause an "Androgen Flood" over time (including Testosterone) or cause an upregulation in Androgen Receptors altogether over time. From my understanding, the risk is less likely when a non-steroidal anti-androgen is used.. like RU58841. However, I think I might have heard a long time ago that people that took this had a change in their androgen receptors and the drug no longer worked.. but I can't be certain. 

Lastly, according to Derek from "More Plates More Dates" on YouTube, who takes RU, has said that studies showed that CB-03-01 is a lot weaker than RU. I'm really hoping something comes to market soon though and I never understood clearly why the RU trials just stopped. I think the Topical Anti-Androgen is the last piece of the puzzle to solve hairloss for most guys if you combine all the mainstream treatments and are able to tolerate them.

1. Finasteride/Dutasteride
2. Minoxidil + Tretinoin
3. Microneedling 1.5mm once a week
4. Lasercomb/Massages
5. PRP
6. Ketoconazole 1% or 2%
7. Strong Topical Anti-Androgen for the Receptors 

I truly believe that would maintain and regrow hair for the vast majority of men, most likely for decades if not for life. The key in my mind is the Topical Anti-Androgen specifically to target the receptors (to protect from both Testosterone & DHT from attaching). If you can have that without the upregulation in Androgen Receptors or any mutation.. you should be able to keep what you have. 

I've been able to maintain and regrow ~15 years of just doing Finasteride/Dutasteride, Microneedling, PRP, Lasercomb... I'd like to add CB if it gets approved although I'm open to RU down the road (but concerned about it's safety).

----------


## JamesKing321

Many people believe that the cheapest way to move house is to do it yourself but this is just not the case. Man and Van app have a network of drivers in the UK who can provide you with help for the same price as it would cost you to hire a moving van yourself. 
https://www.ruby-removals-canterbury.co.uk

----------


## mustang2

> Many people believe that the cheapest way to move house is to do it yourself but this is just not the case. Man and Van app have a network of drivers in the UK who can provide you with help for the same price as it would cost you to hire a moving van yourself. 
> https://www.ruby-removals-canterbury.co.uk


 Can I get a quote?

----------


## stefkampen

I feel that CB and RU are very similar in their effectiveness, but with the CB i do not experience any libido issues, like i do have to a certain point with RU

----------


## doke

The problem with cb over ru is that according to the studies on cb you cannot mix it without lab equipment which i looking into buying but it was way too expensive and the dose when cosmo comes to the market will be 7% topical and lower for woman.
So does Ru which you can mix easily should you start  at 5% and then up to 7%? or even like anagenic they have a premade 8%.

----------


## Drizzy123

> Well, if anybody's interested I will be testing CB-03-01 at 7.5% and have I already have my baseline bloodwork here to asses whether it causes HTPA or Adrenal shutdown as it did on 10% of users during phase II.
> 
> I will be using a alcohol based solution per their patent and CB has been tested by UNI lab to confirm purity of 99%.
> 
> I'm not even going to asses hair loss right now as my main concern is my endocrine system. If causing shutdown then this is not a viable solution unless you are on TRT and take DHEA etc...
> 
> I will also try to measure my circulating androgens via a scalp biopsy after a month of use.
> 
> I guess this is the only way to get this done.


 Hi mustang.. any updates on this? Interested if you have any new bloodwork or any positive results to report re: your hair.

----------

