# Men's Hair Loss > Hair Loss Treatments > Cutting Edge / Future Treatments >  We have a vehicle for CB-03-01: VERSAPRO

## Desmond84

Hey guys, sorry for not being here as often as I used to. Been busy doing a whole bunch of exciting stuff. So here's what I've been up to. 

Around 6 months ago, when I got back from Korea, our company suddenly underwent new management and decided to provide compounding services at some of their larger Pharmacies and lucky enough, our Pharmacy was on that list. 

For those not familiar with medical terms, "compounding" is when a Pharmacy prepares a medicinal product on site. Most of these are pessaries and creams but can include tablets, capsules, suppositories, lotions etc etc.

Anyways, long story short, I put my hand up to get the training which went on for a month and came across some amazing formulations and vehicles along the way. The whole time I was thinking about how many options we have at our fingertips to use as a vehicle for CB-03-01. We just didn't know about it.

And here's the interesting part, when we did the 'topical preparation' session, a particular vehicle kept on being mentioned called *"Versapro"*  by a company called *Medisca*. 




> With its great carrying capacity and excellent emollient characteristics, MEDISCA’s VersaPro™ Cream Base is ideal for both pharmaceutical and cosmetic purposes. Its versatility relates in part to its increased pH stability and excellent compatibility with a wide range of active pharmaceutical ingredients. This unique oil-in-water emulsion is non-greasy, non-irritant and paraben-free. VersaPro™ is a highly moisturising cream formulated with excellent penetrating properties.


 The studies they showed us involved using Versapro as a vehicle for Progesterone and it beat all other competitor's in terms of dosage delivered by a mile! I've attached these studies below for you to see. Not only that, it has crazy properties. As long as your active pharmaceutical ingredient (API) is a salt it is able to carry deep into the dermal layer. It has amazing penetrating properties and is ideal for steroidal and hormonal therapies. Ironically, CB-03-01 is in salt form and a steroid. 

The results speak for themselves. Check it out:









Here's also the study testing its penetration properties using a steroidal active ingredient (Hydrocortisone).

http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream...AC0?sequence=1

So anyways, after I came across all of this mind blowing information, I sat down with our lecturer and told him about the properties of CB-03-01 (molecular weight, pKa, pH, its salt form, etc) and he was pretty certain Versapro would get it where it needs to go (dermal layer). I'm also pretty sure it will be sufficient. 

The lecturer also always pointed out, if you're not sure which one will do the job, most probably Versapro will! It's a no-brainer. Anyways guys that's all I gathered over the last few months of training. Hope it's been useful.

Oh also, any compounding chemist in Australia and USA can order this 'base' in for you. We have been ordering a ton in over the last month and it's cheap as chips. We get a 100g jar for about $20. All you need to do is weigh 2g of CB and mix it into it and your good to go. With regards to its consistency, it is definitely something you wanna apply overnight and wash off in the morning.

Good luck my brothers and please post any questions that you may have. I'll try my best to answer your questions.

Cheers.

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## Desmond84

It's interesting to note, Cosmo was showing efficacy by comparing CB-03-01 to Progesterone administered topically. We now have sufficient data that this vehicle is capable of getting Progesterone to the dermal layer and has all the ticks for carrying a drug with properties matching Cb-03-01.

Here's Medisca's webpage btw. Looks like they are also based in Canada which is excellent  :Smile: 

http://www.medisca.com/en-us/LandingPage.aspx

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## Desmond84

In Pharmacy we use the 'Doubling method' to add a powder into a cream. This video is a perfect tutorial for those wanting to give this a shot. This method ensures, the powder is evenly distributed into the cream.




Please note, Chrome browser doesn't allow you to see the links posted as videos. Make sure you use a different browser  :Wink:

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## sosa56

In all seriousness someone should contact cosmo with this information, you'd be surprised at the lack of communication/awareness within industry, they genuinely might not be aware of this product.

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## wilymon

Excuse my ignorance but what do you mean by "Compounding chemist"? Does that mean I can go to my local Walgreens and order these products or are there specific websites that do this?

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## Kiwi

Have you noticed any results? Any shedding?

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## Hairismylife

What an exciting news Desmond!! We are close to a cure!

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## luca10

Question:
True cb can cure seborrhea?

Traductor.

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## StayThick

The question remains, have you tried and started using this yourself Desmond?

If not, we will anxiously await a guinea pig(s) to do this to see it it holds any water...

I will patiently sit on the sidelines with my popcorn, as I will follow this closely.

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## burtandernie

Might work sounds a lot better than the typical vehicles everyone always talks about and that it looks like some guys that knew that what they were doing helped make it. Hopefully cosmo uses something like this in the actual product. Can we can topical spiro in this type of vehicle? I think chemical like spiro might be much stronger than thought if in a better vehicle like this possibly
Not something I am trying myself though. I will wait for a real company to do it

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## balding1983

Thank you for posting this info Desmond. Indeed this is very encouraging news. Unfortunately, the last cosmo update I read said that they are testing a 5% anhydrous solution in their trials. Is that not correct? I suspect they chose this formulation as it is more convenient for use when compared to a lotion. Furthermore, versapro is a proprietary vehicle. So it is unlikely cosmo will choose it as a form of delivery.

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## stan

people for whom fin is not working, this is worth a shot. At your own risk though.

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## jridd9

this might be a silly question but is actually confirmed form of cb thats actually available to purchase. i see people claimed to have trailed it from that kane guy, and consequently it hasn't been effective due to vehicle. how do we know it's the vehicle causing all the issue with its effectiveness?

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## Justinian

Is there really that much of a risk for safety? I mean, this is a tested cream, and CB has gone under 2 safety trials and is currently in 2 more, with no signs of it not being safe. And, the science backs it up as being safe since it is metabolized to a safe substance in the bloodstream. I doubt it's possible that the combination of the two makes it not safe. The only risk I see is how effective it will be.

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## petewete

This made my day, great news Desmond and thank you for the effort. Hopefully this is it!

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## Kudu

First of all, major thanks for bringing this to us Desmond and good to hear from you again! If you could elaborate on where to get Versapro it would be much appreciated. Thanks again!

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## Jazz1

I don't know if this may help you guys I know a compounding pharmacy in US she has 31 years experience and maybe she might be able to help?

http://www.murrayavenuerx.com/about-...erenstein.html

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## JD59

I have a question about this Desmond.  What would you say is the proper dosage to apply this?  Also, will you be using this and dropping your finasteride?  How long do you think it would take to see if this is working or not?

Also, from your studies, is there any real risk trying this?

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## Justinian

> I don't know if this may help you guys I know a compounding pharmacy in US she has 31 years experience and maybe she might be able to help?
> 
> http://www.murrayavenuerx.com/about-...erenstein.html


 https://www.medisca.com/Pages/Produc...earch=versapro

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## hellouser

I've got some CB on me already. Where/how can I buy Versapro and have it shipped to Canada? Consider me as a potential candidate to try the stuff!  :Smile: 

Thanks Desmond!

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## lifelonglearning

This is great news! Id like to try this, the only challenge seems to be mixing the cream with the powder. Would a pharmacy do the work for you?

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## lifelonglearning

Looks like if your ordering from the Canadian site you need a pharmacy licence 

http://www.medisca.com/en-ca/Profile...529-05%26p%3d1

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## hellouser

> This is great news! Id like to try this, the only challenge seems to be mixing the cream with the powder. Would a pharmacy do the work for you?


 Never in Canada. That would result in fines, investigations, etc. Canada is very much regulated.

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## hairbackpls

I VOLUNTEER! Just gimme dat stuff already :'D

Anyways... Amazing news and research Desmond! Thanks for ur effort. Seems very promising.
 If someone knows how to get it in Europe or can send it to me, im in.

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## jridd9

http://www.drugsdepot.com/catalog.ph...o_Cream_Base__

appears you can purchase from here

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## Justinian

> this might be a silly question but is actually confirmed form of cb thats actually available to purchase. i see people claimed to have trailed it from that kane guy, and consequently it hasn't been effective due to vehicle. how do we know it's the vehicle causing all the issue with its effectiveness?


 I believe some people here have had the stuff from Kane tested at an independent lab and verified that it is pure. It's not listed on their website now though.

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## Kudu

> I believe some people here have had the stuff from Kane tested at an independent lab and verified that it is pure. It's not listed on their website now though.


 I emailed Kane a few weeks ago asking about that, they told me that you can still place orders through email even if it wasn't on their site.

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## lifelonglearning

Alright so thats 2 things solved 
1. Where to buy CB - Email Kane 
2. Where to buy VersaPro cream - http://www.drugsdepot.com/catalog.ph...o_Cream_Base__

Now we need 
3. Where to buy the tools needed to mix the 2

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## Dan26

Desmond can we find out what else this will hold and if it will remain stable?

Great work once again brother!

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## hellouser

> Alright so thats 2 things solved 
> 1. Where to buy CB - Email Kane 
> 2. Where to buy VersaPro cream - http://www.drugsdepot.com/catalog.ph...o_Cream_Base__
> 
> Now we need 
> 3. Where to buy the tools needed to mix the 2


 Link doesnt work.

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## lifelonglearning

http://store20.prestostore.com/cgi-b...utton=Purchase

Only downside its 56.39 for international shipping

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## Sogeking

There are still safety concerns. Since it will go through epidermal layer better CB might get in greater quantity to the bloodstream. All those trials by Cosmo so far probably weren't with such a good vehicle especially with acne cream. Any thoughts on this?

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## hellouser

> There are still safety concerns. Since it will go through epidermal layer better CB might get in greater quantity to the bloodstream. All those trials by Cosmo so far probably weren't with such a good vehicle especially with acne cream. Any thoughts on this?


 Not exactly, its supposed to bind REAL WELL to the receptor... the fact that it breaks down fast rendering its systemic effects quickly AFTER it hits the bloodstream seems to be a last resort safety measure.

Hopefully this vehicle works....

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## lifelonglearning

I dont think that matters because they said that "in blood it quickly metabolizes to cortexolon and thus only has very minimal side effects" and  in their phase 2 acne study "there were no adverse events and statistical significance was attained in comparison to placebo"

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## Justinian

> There are still safety concerns. Since it will go through epidermal layer better CB might get in greater quantity to the bloodstream. All those trials by Cosmo so far probably weren't with such a good vehicle especially with acne cream. Any thoughts on this?


 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646372 
"Its pharmacological activity seemed to be primarily related to its ability to antagonistically compete at androgen receptor level; nevertheless its primary pharmacological target needs to be further investigated. Its topical activity, along with the apparent absence of systemic effects, anticipates this compound to have the potential of representing a novel and safe therapeutic approach for androgen-dependent skin disorders."

I'm pretty sure there are more studies out there since this one (it's fairly old) if you do a Google search.

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## hellouser

Could this stuff be used for anything else?? Tofacitinib or Ruxolitinib?

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## Swooping

Cardiovascular toxicity is primary concern long term, on the other hand unlikely at a low dosage. There is really not much known on the pharmacokinetics of cb-03-01. There is literally no evidence for anything other than 1 study done on hamsters. I'm curious if this cream will make a difference but my guess is that it will make 0% difference. Good luck all  :Smile: .

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## comb0ver

All cool and I am looking forward to seeing how this develops.

Question from a practical point of view –*how do you propose applying a cream to your scalp if you have hair longer than a cm or 2? (what's left of it anyway)

Could get kind of messy no?

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## lifelonglearning

> In Pharmacy we use the 'Doubling method' to add a powder into a cream. This video is a perfect tutorial for those wanting to give this a shot. This method ensures, the powder is evenly distributed into the cream.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please note, Chrome browser doesn't allow you to see the links posted as videos. Make sure you use a different browser


 The mixing actually doesn't look too hard, I guess we need 2 pharmaceutical spatulas and a glass plate and a bottle to store the cream in, anyone have any sources for these tools?

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## hellouser

> The mixing actually doesn't look too hard, I guess we need 2 pharmaceutical spatulas and a glass plate and a bottle to store the cream in, anyone have any sources for these tools?


 Yup, my kitchen.

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## rdawg

So is this stuff available to Canada, how do I get CB and this stuff in Canada?

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## lifelonglearning

> So is this stuff available to Canada, how do I get CB and this stuff in Canada?


 CB you have to email the kane shop
The versapro cream vehicle - http://store20.prestostore.com/cgi-b...utton=Purchase

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## rdawg

> CB you have to email the kane shop
> The versapro cream vehicle - http://store20.prestostore.com/cgi-b...utton=Purchase


 Thanks for the help! I'll wait until people confirm this is legit though, that 50 dollar shipping is killer, dont wanna waste my money if it doesnt work!

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## Justinian

If I'm in the USA, should I be ordering from Kane Shop or Anagen Inc? They both say they ship worldwide, and Anagen accepts Paypal so I'm leaning towards them.

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## hopeeman

> If I'm in the USA, should I be ordering from Kane Shop or Anagen Inc? They both say they ship worldwide, and Anagen accepts Paypal so I'm leaning towards them.


 anagen sell cb?

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## brocktherock

See! Yesterday we thought there was no hope. Desmond has once again demonstrated that he is the most proactive and helpful person here. If he can keep a positive attitude then that gives me hope. A lot can change in one day. Keep hope alive brothers, we'll get through this yet.

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## brocktherock

Also would RU and finasteride be in the same category. If so we have options now.

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## rdawg

So going back to the original trial results, on 5% CB the Follecular density went from 73 at the start to 111(im guessing %?) 4 weeks later which is quite damn good! 85% of subjects improved!!

will this be obtainable with this vehicle? any reason it wont?

http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx

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## rdawg

> Not exactly, its supposed to bind REAL WELL to the receptor... the fact that it breaks down fast rendering its systemic effects quickly AFTER it hits the bloodstream seems to be a last resort safety measure.
> 
> Hopefully this vehicle works....


 You're in Ontario/Toronto as well? Let me know if youre able to get CB and this vehicle shipped to you! dont wanna waste my time if its not even gonna get past customs. How much is CB+shipping to Canada?

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## Desmond84

$50 shipping fee for Versapro! Don't bother with them guys.

If you live in USA, Australia and Canada, first google "Compounding Pharmacies" in your area. Contact the Pharmacy and see if they can order it in for you. They probably even have some on hand. 

If you live in Europe or have difficulty getting it, let me know and I'll work out a way to send it to you. As I said, we get it for $20/100g and I can't imagine International shipping costing more than $10-$15.

As for mixing the powder with the cream, you don't really need anything fancy. Just grab two butter knives and a chopping board (or tile if you can) and mix powder into the cream as shown in the video I posted. Then put the CB cream you just made back into the plastic container Versapro came in. 

Easy as chips  :Wink:

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## hopeeman

> $50 shipping fee for Versapro! Don't bother with them guys.
> 
> If you live in USA, Australia and Canada, first google "Compounding Pharmacies" in your area. Contact the Pharmacy and see if they can order it in for you. They probably even have some on hand. 
> 
> If you live in Europe or have difficulty getting it, let me know and I'll work out a way to send it to you. As I said, we get it for $20/100g and I can't imagine International shipping costing more than $10-$15.
> 
> As for mixing the powder with the cream, you don't really need anything fancy. Just grab two butter knives and a chopping board (or tile if you can) and mix powder into the cream as shown in the video I posted. Then put the CB cream you just made back into the plastic container Versapro came in. 
> 
> Easy as chips


 if  i live in europe...where can i buy it?

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## hairbackpls

> If you live in Europe or have difficulty getting it, let me know and I'll work out a way to send it to you. As I said, we get it for $20/100g and I can't imagine International shipping costing more than $10-$15.


 I live in Europe and i could buy it from ye. Anyone know how im able to get CB in Europe? How much would this treatment cost per month? And what is the self life of CB? Should it be stored in a fridge?

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## Desmond84

> if  i live in europe...where can i buy it?


 Hey brother, I'm not sure if it is available in Europe or not. Check with your local Pharmacy and get back to me. If they can't get it in for you, I can send you some from our Pharmacy. I'll have to find out how much shipping fees are though.

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## Desmond84

Also, I've received a few emails regarding the ingredients making up the Versapro. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get the full list of ingredients but it seems to have some Vitamin E and Aloe Vera. I remember reading that Aloe Vera's good for the scalp anyways which is a plus.

My only questions are: 
1) has anyone ordered anything from Kane and if so how reliable is it? 
2) Does he provide independent studies showing purity of his products? 
3) Is the CB-03-01 supplied in its salt form (i.e. Cortexolone 17-alpha propionate)? If not,  this vehicle will be useless.

I'm pretty sure the vehicle issue is solved. As long as we have a pure form of CB, we can kiss Fin goodbye.

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## lifelonglearning

> Also, I've received a few emails regarding the ingredients making up the Versapro. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get the full list of ingredients but it seems to have some Vitamin E and Aloe Vera. I remember reading that Aloe Vera's good for the scalp anyways which is a plus.
> 
> My only questions are: 
> 1) has anyone ordered anything from Kane and if so how reliable is it? 
> 2) Does he provide independent studies showing purity of his products? 
> 3) Is the CB-03-01 supplied in its salt form (i.e. Cortexolone 17-alpha propionate)? If not,  this vehicle will be useless.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the vehicle issue is solved. As long as we have a pure form of CB, we can kiss Fin goodbye.


 Another question is what the dosage required would be

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## Desmond84

> Another question is what the dosage required would be


 In their Alopecia study anywhere between 1-5% proved to provide sufficient results. I say lets make a 2% cream (2g of CB in 100g of Versapro) to be on the safe side rather than going straight to 5%. For those with aggressive MPB, they can up the dose later on if necessary.

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## diffuseloser

Desmond, if you could hook me up with some Versapro, it would be very much appreciated. I'm in the UK so it looks like getting hold of it is going to be an issue. 

With regards to Kane/Anagen Inc, I've just had my RU seized by UK Border Force. First time I've ordered with Anagen Inc but have emailed them and they are send another batch. I've also asked them about CB and if they currently stock it or plan to stock it in the near future. I'll also ask about which form it will be in so we can be sure it will be compatible with Versapro.

Thanks for your hard work and persistence Desmond.

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## Desmond84

> Desmond, if you could hook me up with some Versapro, it would be very much appreciated. I'm in the UK so it looks like getting hold of it is going to be an issue. 
> 
> With regards to Kane/Anagen Inc, I've just had my RU seized by UK Border Force. First time I've ordered with Anagen Inc but have emailed them and they are send another batch. I've also asked them about CB and if they currently stock it or plan to stock it in the near future. I'll also ask about which form it will be in so we can be sure it will be compatible with Versapro.
> 
> Thanks for your hard work and persistence Desmond.


 Yeah for sure, can do.

Guys I just realised Australia post has a calculator for International shipping. Here's the link:

http://auspost.com.au/apps/postage-calculator.html

Check how much it costs to send it to your country. For example, it costs $18.20 to send it to UK. Let's get some numbers of how many we need and I'll order them in and can send it out if you guys like  :Wink:

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## Desmond84

I'm just dying to see everyone coming here and posting how awesome CB is and how their hairloss has completely stopped! This is the first step towards getting us to the ultimate solution. Next we'll need Berlin & Tokyo to finally make it happen and grow some damn follicles LOL

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## lifelonglearning

Im excited as well! Thanks for all your efforts much appreciated. I really hope this works. I will be contacting a couple compounding pharmacies in Toronto tomorrow to see if they can sell me some versapro cream

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## Desmond84

> Im excited as well! Thanks for all your efforts much appreciated. I really hope this works. I will be contacting a couple compounding pharmacies in Toronto tomorrow to see if they can sell me some versapro cream


 That's amazing. Please post back here with the outcome. 

By the way guys, someone just mentioned about the vehicle being a cream and it's pros and cons when using it on long hair. I fully understand using a cream on the scalp is not ideal and it definitely isn't a perfect vehicle. But it's the best we can do for the time being. On the plus side, it seems to have high vanishing properties and amazing penetration. Furthermore, We're only applying it ONCE A DAY anyway. Just apply it at night and wash it off in the morning. No one will even notice it LOL

In the Cosmo's ionopheresis trial, the androgen receptors remained blocked for ONE WEEK after a single application, so I'm pretty certain using it ONCE DAILY should be sufficient.

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## sdsurfin

Good luck, I'll be watching.  I am not at all sold on the idea that some random chinese guy is making the right chemical.  Desmond I have a question- Did you mention to your colleague that the CB wasn't working with other vehicles? I have doubts that the vehicle was ever the issue.  would it make sense that CB wouldn't work with what people were using before?  Also, if people are going to spend money on this stuff there should really be a concerted effort to make sure that it's the real deal in the right form(the CB i mean).  I don't even know if that is possible, i and i have doubts that cosmo is releasing all their information. we already know there are 2 different forms of CB, who's to say they haven't worked on their own form of it and are keeping that secret?  one little change in a molecule and it becomes totally different in its effectiveness.  Lastly, could fin be mixed into this vehicle? I wouldn't mind giving that a try, as I have suspicions that finasteride is much less harmful to the body if you apply it topically.  I know it still gets into the bloodstream, but the way and the locations that it inhibits 5AR might be different depending on the delivery and time it takes to get around your whole body.

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## diffuseloser

Thanks Desmond. Count me in. I wonder would this vehicle also be effective with RU? If I'm going to be paying out for CB, I want to make sure it's the good stuff in the right format, so I won't be ordering any from Kane/Anagen Inc. until these concerns are
addressed. I may give it a go with RU in the meantime. Can't wait to try this and see what develops. It's about time we all had some good news. All we can really do is work together and keep plugging away until we find something that works. Chin up everyone.

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## hairbackpls

How much would CB and versapro cost per month?

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## hopeeman

> How much would CB and versapro cost per month?


 #2

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## Jasari

I'm currently on Finasteride but it's doing nothing. I'll try this out. My only question is dosage - Once we mix 2g of CB with 100g of the cream base, how much are we actually applying?

Edit: Topical fin with this base might also be something to look into.

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## balding1983

Desmond, do you think we could use this vehicle for Finasteride powder?

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## diffuseloser

It would depend a lot on the length of your hair. You'd want to ensure the affected areas of your scalp are saturated with the solution. I know from using minoxidil that I have to apply more than the recommended 1ml each time as 1ml doesn't cut the mustard and areas of the scalp are missed. I'm guessing anywhere between 2ml and 5ml of this solution should be sufficient. Also, Desmond, I'd be happy to throw you a few quid extra for your troubles in supplying Versapro. The main issue here is where are we going to get our CB from and how pure is it going to be? Also, is it going to be in the correct format that Desmond has described that enables us to use it with Versapro.

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## Jonathan

> Check how much it costs to send it to your country. For example, it costs $18.20 to send it to UK. Let's get some numbers of how many we need and I'll order them in and can send it out if you guys like


 Desmond, you made so much for us already so I feel like an idiot for asking. But since you got the credibility and the knowledge, would it be possible for you to mix a huge bowl of this cream + CB before you send it out to the forum members, with the criteria that everyone that orders from you also post weekly pictures?  It would be such a great trial.

Of course we should all then prepay you using prices that makes it all worth it for you.

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## comb0ver

> Desmond, you made so much for us already so I feel like an idiot for asking. But since you got the credibility and the knowledge, would it be possible for you to mix a huge bowl of this cream + CB before you send it out to the forum members, with the criteria that everyone that orders from you also post weekly pictures?  It would be such a great trial.
> 
> Of course we should all then prepay you using prices that makes it all worth it for you.


 +1

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## hairbackpls

+1

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## Justinian

You have to e-mail Kane, but they supposedly have it.

It's likely pretty expensive, if we mixed 2g into 100g Versapro, how many applications would this support?

Also, how can we get it tested for purity? I googled "independent lab" by me but couldn't find anything. Do you have to know somebody with connections to get this done?

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## diffuseloser

Guys, just got a reply from Anagen Inc. for the questions I asked RE: CB 03 01. See below...

"Thanks for your attachments, we will forward to kane, he'll deal with it. as for cb, we have it on stock, however not possible to sell by paypal, you have to contact kane, and payment only possible by western union/ mail.

its Cortexolone 17AP yesthe right form, its been 3'd party tested by some customers on forums. its crystalline form 3. our R&D department has committed HPLC/NMR + Infra red testing as to ensure the right FORM. the chemists follow the data patent."

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## Rodfarva

I've used cb for about a year and a half earlier, and am pretty convinced that it's the way to go! Would ve happy to help test this new solution.

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## Jonathan

> I've used cb for about a year and a half earlier, and am pretty convinced that it's the way to go! Would ve happy to help test this new solution.


  Why did you quit last time?

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## Rodfarva

> Why did you quit last time?


 Not sure, think I pretty much gave up on everything, life in general.. Sounds dumb I know.. Plus my source got unreliable and there was a lot og debate regarding vehicle..

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## hellouser

> Guys, just got a reply from Anagen Inc. for the questions I asked RE: CB 03 01. See below...
> 
> "Thanks for your attachments, we will forward to kane, he'll deal with it. as for cb, we have it on stock, however not possible to sell by paypal, you have to contact kane, and payment only possible by western union/ mail.
> 
> its Cortexolone 17AP yesthe right form, its been 3'd party tested by some customers on forums. its crystalline form 3. our R&D department has committed HPLC/NMR + Infra red testing as to ensure the right FORM. the chemists follow the data patent."


 Please note warm regards.

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## bibz

> Guys, just got a reply from Anagen Inc. for the questions I asked RE: CB 03 01. See below...
> 
> "Thanks for your attachments, we will forward to kane, he'll deal with it. as for cb, we have it on stock, however not possible to sell by paypal, you have to contact kane, and payment only possible by western union/ mail.
> 
> its Cortexolone 17AP yesthe right form, its been 3'd party tested by some customers on forums. its crystalline form 3. our R&D department has committed HPLC/NMR + Infra red testing as to ensure the right FORM. the chemists follow the data patent."


 Damn crystalline form, desmonds just said that if it was not in salt form, this vehicle was useless... :s

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## diffuseloser

hellouser, I've also dropped Kane an email to get a breakdown of prices for CB 03 01, and any other info they can give us. I'll let you know as soon as possible so we can get the ball rolling on this.

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## hellouser

> hellouser, I've also dropped Kane an email to get a breakdown of prices for CB 03 01, and any other info they can give us. I'll let you know as soon as possible so we can get the ball rolling on this.


 I already have CB. I just need that Versapro vehicle and I'm ready to trial.

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## hertito

Hello everyone,  i'd like to try as well… the only thing is that I live in Spain so for me is difficult to get the versapro cream… let me know if you guys find any supplier to my area. I've sent and email to Kane to know the prices for the cb… 
All the best!!

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## joely

I'd defunct be willing to give this a go just seems abit out of reach for me in the UK

----------


## pagedo

Long time lurker, first time poster, and I just have to say this has really peaked my interest, so count me in to trial this stuff.
Thank you for your commitment Desmond.

----------


## Dimoxynil

Would be keen to give this ago. Hope living in the UK won't hinder me though.

----------


## gainspotter

> Would be keen to give this ago. Hope living in the UK won't hinder me though.


 Same

----------


## billell

> Guys, just got a reply from Anagen Inc. for the questions I asked RE: CB 03 01. See below...
> 
> "Thanks for your attachments, we will forward to kane, he'll deal with it. as for cb, we have it on stock, however not possible to sell by paypal, you have to contact kane, and payment only possible by western union/ mail.
> 
> its Cortexolone 17AP yesthe right form, its been 3'd party tested by some customers on forums. its crystalline form 3. our R&D department has committed HPLC/NMR + Infra red testing as to ensure the right FORM. the chemists follow the data patent."


 They said that the CB is in crystalline form, however Desmonds just said that if it was not in salt form this vehicle was just useless...
Am I missing something?

----------


## diffuseloser

I'm no chemist, so not I'm not 100% sure. I'm assuming crystalline and salt form are one and the same. Would need to get confirmation on this. It seems a lot of us from the UK are interested in this so I'm sure we can figure out some way to obtain Versapro. If Desmond is willing to supply us, I think it would be a nice gesture for all of us to chip in a few quid each for the trouble. Also, I wasn't able to see the link Desmond posted regarding the doubling method but I've come accross a useful video on YouTube that demonstrates how to incorporate powder into a cream. See below...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFkcAJBGXek

----------


## jridd9

+1 uk

----------


## Phatalis

I'm in. I was about to try ru but this seems easier and safer considering cb was cleared for acne

My hst thing fixed the front mostly and if I can maintain with this stuff I'm good to go

----------


## diffuseloser

I'm in the same boat. My RU was seized so I may ask for a refund rather than another batch of RU and use the money towards some CB. RU was only ever a stepping stone for me until I heard some good news on the CB front. Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end of our problem. We won't know until we try it so let's get stuck in.

----------


## noisette

hello guys, please anyone can explain me the difference between CB and Finasteride ? CB could help regrowth thinning hair or perhaps on balding area ? I'm french, I don't use yet some minox or fina, and I would like to try this CB. 

Many thanks Desmond for your help  :Smile:

----------


## pea26

Hey guys,this is really exciting !! I'm based in Florida,where can i get hold of CB?

----------


## deuce

Damn this would suck.  How do you know it would cause long term toxicity?

----------


## Justinian

> They said that the CB is in crystalline form, however Desmonds just said that if it was not in salt form this vehicle was just useless...
> Am I missing something?


 If you read further down in his post he says he explains the properties of CB to the expert, including the salt form of it, and the guy says it should work. I believe a certain chemical is either a salt or not, it's not something like if it's made in a certain form.

----------


## rdawg

> hello guys, please anyone can explain me the difference between CB and Finasteride ? CB could help regrowth thinning hair or perhaps on balding area ? I'm french, I don't use yet some minox or fina, and I would like to try this CB. 
> 
> Many thanks Desmond for your help


 essentially it's localised to the hair while FIN is systemic, thus CB has little to no side effect at all while FIN inhibits the DHT of your whole body(and thus can cause sexual sides)

it's also my understanding that CB is more powerful, as the early clinical results were very promising and caused a substantial increase in hair density in many subjects(albeit that was through the galvanic machine) 

It may help with your thinning hair yes, but I think bald areas no, that is not possible yet.

However maintenence is VERY important, especially to a diffuse aggressive balder like myself, if I can maintain and recover a bit of hair I can then get a transplant without worrying about losing the rest!

----------


## joely

Does anybody know how long cb is likely to be effective for? I believe fin can work for a life time for some people and just a few years for others

----------


## rdawg

> Im excited as well! Thanks for all your efforts much appreciated. I really hope this works. I will be contacting a couple compounding pharmacies in Toronto tomorrow to see if they can sell me some versapro cream


 Let me know how this goes! I live in Toronto as well

----------


## hellouser

> Let me know how this goes! I live in Toronto as well


 Damn, lots of baldites in Toronto... also proves my point about T.O. being superficial as hell to the point where we go the extra mile to rid ourselves of this disease.

Word of caution: stay away from clubs like Cabana Pool Bar.

----------


## pagedo

> Let me know how this goes! I live in Toronto as well


 Ha! That makes three of us!

----------


## pagedo

> Damn, lots of baldites in Toronto... also proves my point about T.O. being superficial as hell to the point where we go the extra mile to rid ourselves of this disease.
> 
> Word of caution: stay away from clubs like Cabana Pool Bar.


 Completely agree, I've been to American cities that are more friendlier than Toronto.

----------


## rdawg

> Damn, lots of baldites in Toronto... also proves my point about T.O. being superficial as hell to the point where we go the extra mile to rid ourselves of this disease.
> 
> Word of caution: stay away from clubs like Cabana Pool Bar.


 haha for sure, I actually was fine in europe and never had anyone make comments on it, came back to T.O and felt completely insecure about it again. I'm just too young for this it's a struggle at times.

----------


## hellouser

> Completely agree, I've been to American cities that are more friendlier than Toronto.


 Doesn't take much to trump Toronto. But... yeah, if a cure comes out, we should all meetup and go out for drinks... many drinks.

----------


## hopeeman

no one knows how much cb and cream cost for 1 month?

----------


## rdawg

> no one knows how much cb and cream cost for 1 month?


 That's a good question, fellow torontonians, how much would this cost and how much do we need for a years supply? I'm looking to make the 5% dose as I am an aggressive hairloss sufferer,  I feel like 1% would not work enough

----------


## hellouser

> no one knows how much cb and cream cost for 1 month?


 1gram will cost you about $150 - $200. Depending on the concentration will determine how many applications you'll get out of it. I suggest you buy enough for a 3 month supply at around 1.5% to 2% concentration and see how results come about (if any)... then buy in bulk and keep the raw powder in the freezer and make batches every now and then.

----------


## hopeeman

> 1gram will cost you about $150 - $200. Depending on the concentration will determine how many applications you'll get out of it. I suggest you buy enough for a 3 month supply at around 1.5% to 2% concentration and see how results come about (if any)... then buy in bulk and keep the raw powder in the freezer and make batches every now and then.


 so its fu****ing expensive

----------


## noisette

Many thanks for you reply Rdawg, I understand well now  :Smile:

----------


## hellouser

> so its fu****ing expensive


 Yup. If you're going to use it at 1% (which did work for Cosmo), 1gram will last 100 applications (or 100 days), so $200 (on the high end) comes out to just under $70/month.

It's not cheap... but not out of range either... I mean, I pay more for my car insurance... I used to pay DOUBLE that for my cell phone bill.

----------


## rdawg

> 1gram will cost you about $150 - $200. Depending on the concentration will determine how many applications you'll get out of it. I suggest you buy enough for a 3 month supply at around 1.5% to 2% concentration and see how results come about (if any)... then buy in bulk and keep the raw powder in the freezer and make batches every now and then.


 So how many grams do you think it would take at a 2% concentration? 1? 2?

----------


## hellouser

> So how many grams do you think it would take at a 2% concentration? 1? 2?


 Double everything, I'm probably going to start at 1.5%. If only we could buy in MAJOR bulk, it'd bring the price down significantly.

----------


## rdawg

> Double everything, I'm probably going to start at 1.5%. If only we could buy in MAJOR bulk, it'd bring the price down significantly.


 Getting this from Kane correct? I'll try 1.5% as well, so should I request 2g? how much is the CB+Shipping? 200-250$ is reasonable if this works of course

----------


## pagedo

> So how many grams do you think it would take at a 2% concentration? 1? 2?


 at 2%, you would need 2g of solute dissolved into a 100g solution. Alternatively, you can also mix 1g of solute into a 50g solution, which would only last you half as long as a 100g solution. Solute being CB - Solution being VERSAPRO.

----------


## hellouser

> Getting this from Kane correct? I'll try 1.5% as well, so should I request 2g? how much is the CB+Shipping? 200-250$ is reasonable if this works of course


 Nope, I got mine elsewhere (private forum and very likely more reliable than Kane). I already have a few grams of CB anyway, so I'm good to go if I can get the Versapro stuff sent to me. If the shipping is 50 bucks, I don't care, it's peanuts to me (I dont have big expenses) I'm willing to pay it, I just need to make sure it CAN get shipped to my house.

----------


## StayThick

> Nope, I got mine elsewhere (private forum and very likely more reliable than Kane). I already have a few grams of CB anyway, so I'm good to go if I can get the Versapro stuff sent to me. If the shipping is 50 bucks, I don't care, it's peanuts to me (I dont have big expenses) I'm willing to pay it, I just need to make sure it CAN get shipped to my house.


 Hellouser: you're located in the US correct? Where do you advise I purchase the CB and Versapro from? CB from Kane? If not Kane, what supplier can provide me CB that is reliable?

Have you ordered the Versapro yet? I need to know how to get this stuff before I pop my first Propecia pill in 4 years again. It's my last hope to avoid going Gillette razor on my head.

----------


## hellouser

> Hellouser: you're located in the US correct? Where do you advise I purchase the CB and Versapro from? CB from Kane? If not Kane, what supplier can provide me CB that is reliable?
> 
> Have you ordered the Versapro yet? I need to know how to get this stuff before I pop my first Propecia pill in 4 years again. It's my last hope to avoid going Gillette razor on my head.


 I live in Canada. I'm fairly sure a lot of people got CB from Kane shipped to the US without problems. I'm also fairly sure many of us in the private forums also had few issues with it shipped to the US as well. Might be more difficult now  with Kane out of the picture, but PHG (private forum) is much better anyway.

----------


## Kudu

> I live in Canada. I'm fairly sure a lot of people got CB from Kane shipped to the US without problems. I'm also fairly sure many of us in the private forums also had few issues with it shipped to the US as well. Might be more difficult now  with Kane out of the picture, but PHG (private forum) is much better anyway.


 Kane doesn't supply CB anymore? If not then where do we find a reliable supplier? You mentioned private forums, but I don't know much about them.

----------


## Dan26

A member tested both PHG and Kane and they turned out to be identicle. PHGs CB is $50/g cheaper though.

----------


## StayThick

> I live in Canada. I'm fairly sure a lot of people got CB from Kane shipped to the US without problems. I'm also fairly sure many of us in the private forums also had few issues with it shipped to the US as well. Might be more difficult now  with Kane out of the picture, but PHG (private forum) is much better anyway.


 How can I get involved in the private forum to obtain info on the supplier of your CB? I'm all in at this point. Any fingers in the right direction would help bud.

----------


## pagedo

> How can I get involved in the private forum to obtain info on the supplier of your CB? I'm all in at this point. Any fingers in the right direction would help bud.


 Same question. And Hell, where did you do you get your everclear from?

----------


## hellouser

> Kane doesn't supply CB anymore? If not then where do we find a reliable supplier? You mentioned private forums, but I don't know much about them.


 


> How can I get involved in the private forum to obtain info on the supplier of your CB? I'm all in at this point. Any fingers in the right direction would help bud.


 


> Same question. And Hell, where did you do you get your everclear from?


 Use google to search for Pioneering Hair Growth. Or drop me a PM on *** for details  :Smile: 

Pagedo: Everclear I went to Buffalo to buy it. It's not TOO far out of the way from Toronto, but it was worth it.

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## Justinian

They do, you just have to email them to order it.

Forgot to quote, this is in response to Kudu.

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## thechamp

> How can I get involved in the private forum to obtain info on the supplier of your CB? I'm all in at this point. Any fingers in the right direction would help bud.


 Stay thick don't you gain weight from fin wouldn't cb the same ?

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## hellouser

> Stay thick don't you gain weight from fin wouldn't cb the same ?


 No. CB doesn't work systemically. It works locally, so ONLY at the follicle level.

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## lifelonglearning

So PHG cb0301 > Kane Cb0301 ? Are they both in the right form?

----------


## thechamp

> No. CB doesn't work systemically. It works locally, so ONLY at the follicle level.


 There's still systematic sides with cb?

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## hellouser

> There's still systematic sides with cb?


 NO!

Holy crap, it's been beaten to death that CB does NOTHING once it hits the bloodstream.

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## noisette

Thanks Hellouser  :Smile:

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## StayThick

> Stay thick don't you gain weight from fin wouldn't cb the same ?


 The champ: my hair is getting so diffuse I just refilled my Propecia prescription after 4 years of taking my last pill. Propecia causes weight gain for me and other big issues, but this is my last chance.

If this CB protocol doesn't work, I'll start at 0.25mg of Propecia every 3 days or so to gauge my tolerance and monitor my body. If the stages of gyno presents itself or excess fat, I will spread the dosage even further. I have to do something. If all else fails and sides become unbearable, I'll shave my head.

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## lifelonglearning

Seems to be quite a few from toronto who want to try this. Maybe we can split the shipping for the versapro cream?  

For example if we order 
1 the cost per unit will be 78.71 
4 the cost per unit will be 41.7 
(usd)

http://store20.prestostore.com/cgi-b...18&or=11299625

----------


## thechamp

> The champ: my hair is getting so diffuse I just refilled my Propecia prescription after 4 years of taking my last pill. Propecia causes weight gain for me and other big issues, but this is my last chance.
> 
> If this CB protocol doesn't work, I'll start at 0.25mg of Propecia every 3 days or so to gauge my tolerance and monitor my body. If the stages of gyno presents itself or excess fat, I will spread the dosage even further. I have to do something. If all else fails and sides become unbearable, I'll shave my head.


 Man I have tried every dosage with propecia I still gain weight once every two weeks ,also I went to a hair loss specialts about my hair loss he thinks my hair loss is from stress not mpb that's why the igrow laser is working for me

----------


## StayThick

Has anybody officially ordered this yet? If so, please post a link to where, especially regarding the Versapro vehicle.

It would be helpful for everyone. I've been out of the loop for a while, but I'm back as my hairloss decided to reactivate recently and now I'm embarrassed to go anywhere near water. 

I can only hope this is safe and Desmond is onto to something...

----------


## Xoxo

How often should CB be applied when aiming for a good cost-performance ratio?  :Confused: 

Options:
1.) once daily --> Desmond wrote this more or less conscious in this thread; not necessarily as a recommendation
2.) once a week --> Cosmo's study: "All subjects were then given 5 treatments (in sessions once or twice a week)"; results have been checked 1 week after completion and 4 weeks after completion (with further improved results)
3.) once in a while --> Is the treatment completed after 5 sessions and must be repeated after a certain time?

How long is the receptor occupied?  :Confused: 

The vehicle seems to be very creamy, which does not make it easy to apply on the scalp, when there is still hair.
How could it be applied in the best possible way?  :Confused:  Using injection devices with stump needles?
Are there any experiences in applying other creamy topicals?

----------


## hellouser

> The vehicle seems to be very creamy, which does not make it easy to apply on the scalp, when there is still hair.
> How could it be applied in the best possible way?  Using injection devices with stump needles?
> Are there any experiences in applying other creamy topicals?


 Use a dermaroller, that'll help significantly. Also exfoliate your skin. Apply 30 minutes after showering as well when sebum is less present on the scalp. Do these three things and you'll get way better penetration.

----------


## JD59

Desmond, will you be dropping finasteride and using CB this way?  How do you plan on dosing it?

hellouser, is there a way I could please PM you too to get access to that forum?

----------


## hellouser

> hellouser, is there a way I could please PM you too to get access to that forum?


 Not my call. Ask Spencer why PM'ing is disabled on this site.

----------


## JD59

> Not my call. Ask Spencer why PM'ing is disabled on this site.


 Did this happen recently today or has it always been this way?

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## ryan82

Hellhouser, Count me in man! 

 :Big Grin: 



> Double everything, I'm probably going to start at 1.5%. If only we could buy in MAJOR bulk, it'd bring the price down significantly.

----------


## hertito

It costs around 110 dollars for 200ml of versapro cream shipped to Spain… I just need to know the price and purity of cb and Im in!!

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## diffuseloser

> It costs around 110 dollars for 200ml of versapro cream shipped to Spain I just need to know the price and purity of cb and Im in!!


 What website are you using for the cream buddy? If you're ordering CB, do you want to go for a larger batch and split the cost with me? You're also going to need spatula's and a slab. Glass chopping board should do the trick and I think I have some spatulas knocking about. My only concern with this is that Cosmo used a galvanic device. I'm gonna give this a shot but I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. Let me know if any of you guys from UK/Europe want to order a big batch of CB and split it so we can save a few quid. Might be able to negotiate something with Kane/PHG.

----------


## diffuseloser

How many grams of CB you got left hellouser? You got a good head start on all of us so wish you the best of luck with this. Perhaps you could do another log like you did with RU? I know it was invaluable to me and many other members, so much appreciated. Once I get my CB and Versapro, I'll try to do the same.

----------


## Dimoxynil

Ok, I'm off work today. Got pretty much all the time in the world to start looking for vehicle + CB. Anyone from London interested in doing a group purchase ?

----------


## joely

> Ok, I'm off work today. Got pretty much all the time in the world to start looking for vehicle + CB. Anyone from London interested in doing a group purchase ?


 Not from London but I'm from the midlands if that's any good to you

----------


## JDW

> Ok, I'm off work today. Got pretty much all the time in the world to start looking for vehicle + CB. Anyone from London interested in doing a group purchase ?


 Apologies haven't looked through all the topic but what do you think we'd be looking at cost wise?

----------


## MancBoy

I'm from manchester so I'm happy to get involved as well

Can we arrange a place to talk to decide and organise our order?

----------


## Dimoxynil

> I'm from manchester so I'm happy to get involved as well
> 
> Can we arrange a place to talk to decide and organise our order?


 Ok in principle but living at opposite ends of the country could cause logistical issues. That's why I said London at first. We don't even know if we can get hold of this stuff yet.

----------


## gainspotter

> Not from London but I'm from the midlands if that's any good to you


 Good to see another midlander on here.

Are you all doing a group buy?

----------


## MancBoy

once it's in the UK the Royal Mail will sort the rest just someone to divi it up x ways 

should be easy enough it's just weighting out a powder and paypal to transfer money

----------


## Phatalis

I'm in D.C. usa if anyone else wants to do a group buy

----------


## StayThick

I'm in FL (USA) if anyone is interested in a group buy as well.

----------


## Phatalis

Most  of my fam is in fl

----------


## rbrown

Desmond thank you for the info.I have a question for you. Can Ketoconazole be mixed with Versapro? I am not brave enough to try something that is still on trial like cb but i can try keto. I have good results with Keto and from what i read about cb i cannot tell the difference between them when it comes to hairloss.

----------


## ChemicalBrother

> Desmond, you made so much for us already so I feel like an idiot for asking. But since you got the credibility and the knowledge, would it be possible for you to mix a huge bowl of this cream + CB before you send it out to the forum members, with the criteria that everyone that orders from you also post weekly pictures?  It would be such a great trial.
> 
> Of course we should all then prepay you using prices that makes it all worth it for you.


 +1

----------


## Dimoxynil

UK Posters, 

Have sent out emails to CB suppliers. Have asked about things such as pricing and shipping arrangements. Will let you know if/when I hear anything. If anyone wants to be of help and research the best way to aquire the vehicle that would be appreciated.

----------


## sdsurfin

Just so you all know, before you drop more than 70 bucks a month on CB, last time I talked to cosmo they said their acne version concentration is too weak for hair loss. I believe that is 2%.  Meaning you're gonna have to prob use 5% or more. I'm also not sold on this vehicle noise, cosmo said that the cream vehicle they use for acne is not correct for hair loss. the molecule in both studies is the same, and their pre clinical trials used an anhydrous solution for hair loss.  i don't think versapro is what they are using. 

I hope CB works and is safe (one pre-clinical trial does NOT guarantee that it has no sides or complications, hence the many more trials it must undergo. in THEORY it has no sides, and so far it seems safe, but lets just remember propecia got passed and is still wrecking peoples' bodies. In my experience there is no such thing as a chemical without sides).  If it does work, i will probably wait until it can be bought at a reasonable cost and has been proven effective, otherwise its a really easy way to burn money. I caution the young guys on here especially before you blow a lot of loot, to let it play out.  In a year or two cosmo will have more data on the effectiveness and maybe even info on a vehicle.

----------


## Avacfc

Thanks for this information desmond its definitely interesting times with this and CD being trialed. 

I am also in the uk and already have some CB left over from when I was trailing it with ETH/PG. All I need is a source for the new vehicle and I can get trailing right away!

----------


## Swooping

> Just so you all know, before you drop more than 70 bucks a month on CB, last time I talked to cosmo they said their acne version concentration is too weak for hair loss. I believe that is 2%.  Meaning you're gonna have to prob use 5% or more. I'm also not sold on this vehicle noise, cosmo said that the cream vehicle they use for acne is not correct for hair loss. the molecule in both studies is the same, and their pre clinical trials used an anhydrous solution for hair loss.  i don't think versapro is what they are using. 
> 
> I hope CB works and is safe (one pre-clinical trial does NOT guarantee that it has no sides or complications, hence the many more trials it must undergo. in THEORY it has no sides, and so far it seems safe, but lets just remember propecia got passed and is still wrecking peoples' bodies. In my experience there is no such thing as a chemical without sides).  If it does work, i will probably wait until it can be bought at a reasonable cost and has been proven effective, otherwise its a really easy way to burn money. I caution the young guys on here especially before you blow a lot of loot, to let it play out.  In a year or two cosmo will have more data on the effectiveness and maybe even info on a vehicle.


 Spot on. Ironically CB-03-01 is way more experimental than RU-58841. The literature on it is incredibly scarce. Secondly, the vehicle was never a problem. The liphoplicity of CB-03-01 is even better than RU and has a lower molecular weight. There is no hypothetical reason to suggest it wouldn't work with a normal vehicle. The guys who used it at 5% said it was doing it's job while the guys who went with 2% and under never had real results. 

Also keep in mind that this is a *steroidal*  anti-androgen. They affect the cardiovascular system long-term if it goes systematic (cyproterone acetate). It has been proposed as not going systematic but this is only proven in a hamster flank organ test. 

Don't get hyped up by press releases especially from companies guys. You need regulated studies or either studies which are not affiliated with the company itself. Do you know how often they sugarcoat results or even influence them? To create attention and attract investors?  :Wink: . I wouldn't even be surprised if the results from this cream are way overthrown, you see it all the time. Be realistic and good luck.

----------


## balding1983

> Just so you all know, before you drop more than 70 bucks a month on CB, last time I talked to cosmo they said their acne version concentration is too weak for hair loss. I believe that is 2%.  Meaning you're gonna have to prob use 5% or more. I'm also not sold on this vehicle noise, cosmo said that the cream vehicle they use for acne is not correct for hair loss. the molecule in both studies is the same, and their pre clinical trials used an anhydrous solution for hair loss.  i don't think versapro is what they are using. 
> 
> I hope CB works and is safe (one pre-clinical trial does NOT guarantee that it has no sides or complications, hence the many more trials it must undergo. in THEORY it has no sides, and so far it seems safe, but lets just remember propecia got passed and is still wrecking peoples' bodies. In my experience there is no such thing as a chemical without sides).  If it does work, i will probably wait until it can be bought at a reasonable cost and has been proven effective, otherwise its a really easy way to burn money. I caution the young guys on here especially before you blow a lot of loot, to let it play out.  In a year or two cosmo will have more data on the effectiveness and maybe even info on a vehicle.


 This! 

I wish CB will be the treatment we all hope it could be but be patient. Desmond has done a lot of work to provide this info and if not for CB why not try topical finasteride or Dutasteride with this vehicle. I would have thought the liquid in the dutasteride will be ideal to mix as a cream base? 

I'm based in the UK. I will not be trying CB as I'm not comfortable using grey market meds. However, I plan on trying topical finasteride using this cream base. If that doesn't work then perhaps Dutasteride.

----------


## ank1

Maybe I'm being too skeptic but it just sounds too good to be true.

I do not believe that Cosmo has not tried such vehicle that's already out in the market. 

I'll have to wait and see how you guys do with it.

----------


## Justinian

> Just so you all know, before you drop more than 70 bucks a month on CB, last time I talked to cosmo they said their acne version concentration is too weak for hair loss. I believe that is 2%.  Meaning you're gonna have to prob use 5% or more. I'm also not sold on this vehicle noise, cosmo said that the cream vehicle they use for acne is not correct for hair loss. the molecule in both studies is the same, and their pre clinical trials used an anhydrous solution for hair loss.  i don't think versapro is what they are using. 
> 
> I hope CB works and is safe (one pre-clinical trial does NOT guarantee that it has no sides or complications, hence the many more trials it must undergo. in THEORY it has no sides, and so far it seems safe, but lets just remember propecia got passed and is still wrecking peoples' bodies. In my experience there is no such thing as a chemical without sides).  If it does work, i will probably wait until it can be bought at a reasonable cost and has been proven effective, otherwise its a really easy way to burn money. I caution the young guys on here especially before you blow a lot of loot, to let it play out.  In a year or two cosmo will have more data on the effectiveness and maybe even info on a vehicle.


 Valid points, but there have been two clinical trials completed (one for acne, one for hair). And two are currently taking place(one for hair, one for acne). They specifically stated there were no side effects observed and no evidence of it going systemic. Long term there could possibly be some effects, though.

----------


## Justinian

> Spot on. Ironically CB-03-01 is way more experimental than RU-58841. The literature on it is incredibly scarce. Secondly, the vehicle was never a problem. The liphoplicity of CB-03-01 is even better than RU and has a lower molecular weight. There is no hypothetical reason to suggest it wouldn't work with a normal vehicle. The guys who used it at 5% said it was doing it's job while the guys who went with 2% and under never had real results. 
> 
> Also keep in mind that this is a *steroidal*  anti-androgen. They affect the cardiovascular system long-term if it goes systematic (cyproterone acetate). It has been proposed as not going systematic but this is only proven in a hamster flank organ test. 
> 
> Don't get hyped up by press releases especially from companies guys. You need regulated studies or either studies which are not affiliated with the company itself. Do you know how often they sugarcoat results or even influence them? To create attention and attract investors? . I wouldn't even be surprised if the results from this cream are way overthrown, you see it all the time. Be realistic and good luck.


 Cosmo stated after the phase 1 trial that there was no observed evidence of steroidal side effects in humans, which backs up the science saying that it's metabolized into a harmless substance in the bloodstream. On mobile so I won't find the link now. Long term there is s chance for some unknown side effect I guess, though.

----------


## ank1

BTW, does anybody know where I can find the evidence that shows CB should be more effective than RU?

I read somewhere that CB should be at least 4x more effective but can't remember where.

I was rather trying to get RU instead since it's already been tested by many

----------


## hellouser

> Spot on. Ironically CB-03-01 is way more experimental than RU-58841. The literature on it is incredibly scarce. Secondly, the vehicle was never a problem. The liphoplicity of CB-03-01 is even better than RU and has a lower molecular weight. There is no hypothetical reason to suggest it wouldn't work with a normal vehicle. The guys who used it at 5% said it was doing it's job while the guys who went with 2% and under never had real results.


 Who was using it at 5%? That's the only troubling issue with the stuff... at 5%, its going to be ridiculously expensive.

----------


## Kudu

Thanks Justinian and Hellouser for the clear up on Kane and the private forums.

Now then, does anyone have an idea on why CB didn't work with an Ethanol/PG vehicle? Just trying to clarify some things and make sure we don't have MORE issues.

----------


## Dees Dab

Maybe a group buy would be more affordable if there is enough people interested. Im lookin to try it and am from Ontario, Canada. 

Searched PHG for CB-03=01 no results ?

----------


## Swooping

> BTW, does anybody know where I can find the evidence that shows CB should be more effective than RU?
> 
> I read somewhere that CB should be at least 4x more effective but can't remember where.
> 
> I was rather trying to get RU instead since it's already been tested by many


 Fcking no hell lol broscience, we wish it was like that. Evidence atm points out it is less potent than RU-58841. You refer to this study; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646372



This is from the study, now note cyproterone acetate is just a little bit more active than cb-03-01 in the hamster flank organ test. I have a study about RU-58841 on hamster flank organ test also I'll dig it up later if you are interested but I'm sure it was more potent than these figures. Secondly the following is a statement about RU58841;




> When compared with the  antiandrogenic compound cyproterone acetate, PSK-3841 exhibited a 20% increase in AR binding [18].


 Meaning RU-58841 is likely  stronger than than cyproterone acetate and thus likely stronger than CB-03-01.

Also be aware that the cb-03-01 comparison to finasteride in this test is hilarious. They are comparing a 5ar2 inhibitor with a anti-androgen. This obviously will say nothing about it translating for AGA, keep that in mind.

Now guys, think about it. Why was the vehicle ever a problem? Wouldn't it be logical for it that we need a higher concentration for it being effective? 

If RU-58841 and cyproterone acetate outperform cb-03-01 then why would cb-03-01 work at a dosage of 1-2%, do you see RU-58841 or cyproterone acetate working that good at such a dosage? I don't think so. 

That is what the problem ever was, cosmo just released a new patent in 2014, where they also state the pharmaceutical composition of the cream, and it is nothing special. 

The vehicle was never a problem, the concentration was. If you think otherwise come up with reasoning, or I would like to hear it from desmond. I have spoken to chemists and there is literally no reason to think the vehicle was a problem ever. 

And yes 5% is going to be expensive as hell I guess.

----------


## hellouser

> Maybe a group buy would be more affordable if there is enough people interested. Im lookin to try it and am from Ontario, Canada. 
> 
> Searched PHG for CB-03=01 no results ?


 CB minus 3 does not equal 1.

----------


## Justinian

> Fcking no hell lol broscience, we wish it was like that. Evidence atm points out it is less potent than RU-58841. You refer to this study; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646372
> 
> 
> 
> This is from the study, now note cyproterone acetate is just a little bit more active than cb-03-01 in the hamster flank organ test. I have a study about RU-58841 on hamster flank organ test also I'll dig it up later if you are interested but I'm sure it was more potent than these figures. Secondly the following is a statement about RU58841;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 This is what people reference http://m.cosmopharma.com/news/press/...010-10-06.aspx

CB 1% is about the same as 5%, and both outperform cyproterone acetate. The vehicle used in this study was iontrophesis.

----------


## ank1

@Swooping

Thanks for the detailed discussion. Sounds quite reasonable.

I guess I heard that the reason RU was withdrawn from the market in Japan was because of its stability and lower effectiveness compared to CB.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong)

But if you are right, it may be that the pharmas are trying to go for more stability in the expense of efficiency since it would be more successful in the market which makes sense.

In this case, it might me better for us to go for RU since the grey market price for the right dose would be cheaper for RU.

Of course, the situation would all change if the pharmas start providing CB at a reasonable price which would certainly be lower than that of the grey market.

I guess I'll have to dig more into the RU and CB studies myself and try not to be too enthusiastic about CB at the moment.


---

@Justinian

Thanks for the post. If the cream delivery shows similar efficiency compared to iontrophesis, CB would be better then.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

But isn't iontrophesis supposed to be a stronger way of delivering the drug?

I guess it has a lot to do with its electrostatic property and lipophilicity, size etc.

Any reason cream delivery should be better?

I guess nobody would be able to give a solid answer since we do not have any experimental data 

but I would appreciate your opinions. 

Maybe some people with expertise in the field can give us a brief idea.



---


@Hellhouser, 

is there any reason you are going for CB instead of RU btw?

I remember you posting pics of yourself having grown quite a lot of hair on top using RU.

What has changed?

----------


## Swooping

> This is what people reference http://m.cosmopharma.com/news/press/...010-10-06.aspx
> 
> CB 1% is about the same as 5%, and both outperform cyproterone acetate. The vehicle used in this study was iontrophesis.


 Firstly as I said this is done by cosmo themself, and the set-up of the study is plain horrible. And at 1% it isn't much better than cyproterone acetate anyway in this table. But let's delve deeper and I'll give you more reasons why this is utter bullshit misleading shit.




> The study evaluated the efficacy of CB-03-01 in *40 men* with androgenetic alopecia grade 1-4 according to the Hamilton scale, and in *30 post-menopausal women* with androgenetic alopecia grade 1 according to the Ludwig scale. Prior to treatment, follicle density, hair thickness, a pull test, and sebum production were measured. *All subjects were then given 5 treatments (in sessions once or twice a week) of either 1% CB-03-01, 5% CB-03-01, 1% ciproterone-acetate or 1% 17alpha-estradiol.* Each volunteer was then re-analyzed one week and one month after the last treatment.


 Look androgenetic is a polygenic inheritance meaning that people react differently to treatments. People with lower norwood scale seem to react better to treatments than people who are far gone, and women react differently too. There are multiple factors. You see this all the time even with the current treatments where some people react awesome to treatments but some not so awesome. 

You really think N= 70 gives a good indication of the effectiveness of a treatment in this setup? Think, again. Btw the N= would be even lower for each compound making it even less reliable.

You don't even know the group setups. For example where the women where or the different norwood scales were assigned too.

----------


## Swooping

> @Swooping
> 
> Thanks for the detailed discussion. Sounds quite reasonable.
> 
> I guess I heard that the reason RU was withdrawn from the market in Japan was because of its stability and lower effectiveness compared to CB.
> (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
> 
> But if you are right, it may be that the pharmas are trying to go for more stability in the expense of efficiency since it would be more successful in the market which makes sense.
> 
> ...


 No problem man. Btw I don't want to be negative here, I just think that going in circles will only lead to disappointment in people. Doesn't make sense that the vehicle ever was a problem in cb-03-01, the concentration was %. So I really wouldn't be too hyped, but I guess we will find out soon!

About RU-58841 I have my theory about it, check my post history. Somewhere I talked about the history of it all. I just know that it works very good and many people use it. I can't know the real reason though!

----------


## ank1

I'll wait and see how people do with CB+Versapro too. I just hope people get great results.

Reading your posts makes me more curious about the history! I'll check your RU post. Thanks  :Smile:

----------


## Justinian

> Firstly as I said this is done by cosmo themself, and the set-up of the study is plain horrible. And at 1% it isn't much better than cyproterone acetate anyway in this table. But let's delve deeper and I'll give you more reasons why this is utter bullshit misleading shit.
> 
> 
> 
> Look androgenetic is a polygenic inheritance meaning that people react differently to treatments. People with lower norwood scale seem to react better to treatments than people who are far gone, and women react differently too. There are multiple factors. You see this all the time even with the current treatments where some people react awesome to treatments but some not so awesome. 
> 
> You really think N= 70 gives a good indication of the effectiveness of a treatment in this setup? Think, again. Btw the N= would be even lower for each compound making it even less reliable.
> 
> You don't even know the group setups. For example where the women where or the different norwood scales were assigned too.


 Good points. There definitely should be more participants given how many groups they are divided into, and adding in women.

I assume they are divided evenly, though. I believe trials for FDA approval will be reviewed for stuff like deliberately misrepresenting the study groups.

We will definitely know a lot more after the phase 2 trial finishes next year.

----------


## sdsurfin

> Spot on. Ironically CB-03-01 is way more experimental than RU-58841. The literature on it is incredibly scarce. Secondly, the vehicle was never a problem. The liphoplicity of CB-03-01 is even better than RU and has a lower molecular weight. There is no hypothetical reason to suggest it wouldn't work with a normal vehicle. The guys who used it at 5% said it was doing it's job while the guys who went with 2% and under never had real results. 
> 
> Also keep in mind that this is a *steroidal*  anti-androgen. They affect the cardiovascular system long-term if it goes systematic (cyproterone acetate). It has been proposed as not going systematic but this is only proven in a hamster flank organ test. 
> 
> Don't get hyped up by press releases especially from companies guys. You need regulated studies or either studies which are not affiliated with the company itself. Do you know how often they sugarcoat results or even influence them? To create attention and attract investors? . I wouldn't even be surprised if the results from this cream are way overthrown, you see it all the time. Be realistic and good luck.


 Yeah the idea of the vehicle being a problem seems like nonsense to me.  PG and ethanol should carry CB fine, but the concentration of this stuff is much more important. also, just because there were no short term sides noted with iontophoresis does not mean that putting large concentrations of it through your skin with a vehicle will definitely not have sides. steroidal compounds are bound to do something. Either way I hope that cosmo gets this to market at a fair price if it works, and that it'll be a better alternative to finasteride.  I highly highly doubt that people will get results if they didn't get them with the last vehicle, in my mind there's no way that was the problem.  The stuff might just not work the way it did with iontophoresis, or the concentrations are way too low.  will be interesting to see. Cellular therapies are where it's at, I'm not too excited about this androgen related stuff.

----------


## Justinian

> I'm in FL (USA) if anyone is interested in a group buy as well.


 What part of Florida?

----------


## StayThick

> What part of Florida?


 South Florida (Ft. Lauderdale)

----------


## deuce

> Yeah the idea of the vehicle being a problem seems like nonsense to me.  PG and ethanol should carry CB fine, but the concentration of this stuff is much more important. also, just because there were no short term sides noted with iontophoresis does not mean that putting large concentrations of it through your skin with a vehicle will definitely not have sides. steroidal compounds are bound to do something. Either way I hope that cosmo gets this to market at a fair price if it works, and that it'll be a better alternative to finasteride.  I highly highly doubt that people will get results if they didn't get them with the last vehicle, in my mind there's no way that was the problem.  The stuff might just not work the way it did with iontophoresis, or the concentrations are way too low.  will be interesting to see. Cellular therapies are where it's at, I'm not too excited about this androgen related stuff.


 
Great with FIN you lose your sex drive, and with this it could damage your cardiovascular system which may creep up on you with you not even knowing?  Who knows?  I think we should get a medical expert on this.  Maybe any doctors that come to this site?

----------


## Justinian

> South Florida (Ft. Lauderdale)


 Oh, I'm in Orlando. A little too far away.

----------


## lifelonglearning

All this debate whether its going to work or not.. only one way to find out . Just ordered versapro cream now i need me some cb. Can someone send me a invite to PHG

----------


## wesleybelgium

i followed the hype train too with regret. Had to find the hard way. We purchased tested cb 3 years ago. With 70 other members. It worked for no one.

There is nothing wrong with current vehicles. Ethanol is super  penetration enhancer to make it to the root the  dermal papilla.

Used to do androgenic steroids in the past. When I replaced ru for cb I could tell allot sebum and shedding was going on while on steroids.  it is big signs of aga.

Dut + 3%  cb was definitely nto as strong as dut + 5% Ru.

Dut + RU avoided  sebum + hairloss while on steroids. As no other combo.

Cb definitely  overhyped on paper  for investors.  would compare its effect to spironolactone but with sideffects. Me and other users reported stabbing chest pains. Angina pectoris like sides effects. cb  will  never hit  market with such dangerous sides once they make in.


 Imo best combination combi is   RU + minox or  ru + minox + dutas.

I will make a log soon for my hair status!

----------


## sdsurfin

> i followed the hype train too with regret. Had to find the hard way. We purchased tested cb 3 years ago. With 70 other members. It worked for no one.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with current vehicles. Ethanol is super  penetration enhancer to make it to the root the  dermal papilla.
> 
> Used to do androgenic steroids in the past. When I replaced ru for cb I could tell allot sebum and shedding was going on while on steroids.  it is big signs of aga.
> 
> Dut + 3%  cb was definitely nto as strong as dut + 5% Ru.
> 
> 
> ...


 
I doubt CB is much good if so many people have tested it and gotten no results.  If it was a miracle drug it would have done at least something. The vehicle stuff is nonsense (although I'd like to hear desmond reason as to why older vehicles didn't work) 

On the other hand, it's hard to take anyones word on side effects like chest pains (which are often anxiety related too) when they are taking steroids.  Clearly you were putting a lot of shit in your body at the same time (including dutasteride), so any objective reading of side effects seems impossible.  I really don't think anyone is going to tackle hair loss chemically- drugs will all have sides and the chain of events that creates hair loss is very complex and very tied to a lot of crucial systems in the body.  The future is hair regeneration with stem cells. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for replicel not to be a total wash, and meanwhile maybe try topical fin.  curious to see what people experience with CB but too expensive for now.

----------


## diffuseloser

Well, I just got a reply from Kane about CB...

"Price for 1g: USD200
Shipping charge: USD50
How many you need?"

At $200 a gram, this just isn't feasible. If we're going to be using a stronger concentration of CB, we'll be out a small fortune.

----------


## diffuseloser

I'll be the first to admit, I jumped the gun on this. It's easy to get excited about good news particularly when we don't get it very often. That's what's good about this forum. We need everyone's input and opinion and often we can save ourselves a lot of trouble. Nobody else is gonna help us. We have to help ourselves. I'm gonna sit tight on this one. For you guys that can afford to spend this kind of money on 1 gram of CB, have at it and hope it works out. It's just unrealistic for me right now as I'm in the middle of buying a house.

----------


## Kudu

So basically we all had tunnel vision about finding an "effective vehicle" even though we weren't sure if that was the problem? What I'm trying to figure out is how this hasn't been brought up before. Now dosage could be an issue and the price most certainly is. I assumed that the vehicle was the issue because we were all trying to find one, I guess a whole lot of other people assumed the same thing. How long have we been trying to find a vehicle?  At least a year and a half and I'm sure longer. I'm still not giving up hope yet, but this is discouraging. We never know until we try it out I guess, what if it works?

----------


## brocktherock

> So basically we all had tunnel vision about finding an "effective vehicle" even though we weren't sure if that was the problem? What I'm trying to figure out is how this hasn't been brought up before. Now dosage could be an issue and the price most certainly is. I assumed that the vehicle was the issue because we were all trying to find one, I guess a whole lot of other people assumed the same thing. How long have we been trying to find a vehicle?  At least a year and a half and I'm sure longer. I'm still not giving up hope yet, but this is discouraging. We never know until we try it out I guess, what if it works?


  Maybe, but 2% in the scalp would be better than 5% that can't effectively penetrate. Des has been after this for a while and he's a reliable source. Even if CB isn't the most practical way, we can still use this vehicle for RU or Fin. We have options now and if we can improve upon fin results then we can essentially be cured as long as your hair loss is not too far advanced.

----------


## diffuseloser

I assumed the vehicle was the problem also. All of us did. It's news to me that the concentration may have been the issue and not the vehicle. As you say, we won't know until we try it. Personally, I won't be able to do that right now due to the high cost of CB, so it's back on the RU for me until there is clarity on the CB issues.

----------


## ryan82

I really dont think that 1-2% CB will work.  Maybe 5-8%. But the are cost so high.

Will RU work with Versapro ?

----------


## Kudu

> I assumed the vehicle was the problem also. All of us did. It's news to me that the concentration may have been the issue and not the vehicle. As you say, we won't know until we try it. Personally, I won't be able to do that right now due to the high cost of CB, so it's back on the RU for me until there is clarity on the CB issues.


 Why is it so expensive? Is it complicated to produce or are we being screwed? I'm still not convinced that penetration isn't part of the problem. Iontophoresis/CB produced results, granted it's direct penetration to the dermal layer but generally you use a much lower concentration than with a chemical vehicle. I read a journal article about topical steroids and penetration issues a few weeks ago, I'll try to find it. If Ethanol/PG, DMSO, or whatever gave only mediocre penetration and Versapro turns out to be excellent, I think we will see results. We need to find an affordable way to get this, if possible.

----------


## Kudu

> Will RU work with Versapro ?


 Most likely. It might actually work quite well but you may get systemic side effects.

----------


## diffuseloser

I have no idea mate. It can't be that expensive to produce. I think we're being screwed, as usual. Because it's hard to obtain, they can pretty much charge what they like. I can't justify paying $250 for one gram of CB. If we knew it worked, and how to use it effectively, I wouldn't have an issue paying out for it. It's simply not worth it right now. You can get 5x as much RU for the same price, maybe more. We're still clutching at straws. I advise everyone to proceed with caution. It's good news yes, but it needs more investigation before we jump in head first. The cost of CB is ridiculous right now. Until it becomes reasonably priced, I won't be testing it.

----------


## diffuseloser

I would, however, really love to know if this works. Would it be possible for each of us to chip in say $10/$20 each and buy a few grams of CB and Versapro for a trustworthy forum member to trial and and log? Hellouser perhaps?

----------


## ryan82

i think that everybody thinks this is the cure.. But it is a anti androgen. So it will only prevent hairloss. Not regrowth. And RU is powerful enough and do the work like CB. First at all i was very happy with this news, but now i think this is not so different then RU. And the price is 2x better  :Wink:  

I see Hellhouser pictures. There you can see almost no regrowth. Only the hair that he haves is now thicker because DHT is limited. 

We have to wait for hair cloning. That will be the cure.. (I HOPE)  :EEK!:

----------


## hairbackpls

> I would, however, really love to know if this works. Would it be possible for each of us to chip in say $10/$20 each and buy a few grams of CB and Versapro for a trustworthy forum member to trial and and log? Hellouser perhaps?


 +1. Im in if someone gets it arranged

----------


## diffuseloser

Okay well let's see what Hellouser has to say first. I don't mean to suggest you are a guinea pig Hellouser, so please don't take offense! It's just that if anyone can be trusted to do this right and keep an accurate log, you're the first person that comes to mind.

----------


## diffuseloser

Okay well let's see what Hellouser has to say first. I don't mean to suggest you are a guinea pig Hellouser, so please don't take offense! It's just that if anyone can be trusted to do this right and keep an accurate log, you're the first person that comes to mind. It's entirely up to you though.

----------


## ank1

Can anybody suggest me where I should buy RU from? I've decided to go for RU until others show how CB does. What options so I have options apart from the Kane shop? Iron dragon? I haven't tried any grey market products so far and am not very aware of whats going on there. Which site would you recommend?

----------


## joachim

hmm. for one year there was a lot of discussion about finding the right vehicle. some knowledgeable members said eth/pg and others are not good vehicles for CB because of molecule size etc.
if i remember correctly, even kane tried to develop a nanovehicle for CB but he failed because the mixture was not stable enough. why would there be a need to look for a new vehicle if everything was fine with the standard ones? and why did cosmo use iontophoresis then? why not put the CB in a simple vehicle and give it the trial candidates to rub on their head?
that all doesn't makes sense to me.

and to the guy who tried CB 3 years ago with no success: was it even the right form of CB? somewhere i read that there was some confusion because some people tested it with form 1, but the right one is form 3. what we can get from kane now is the right form 3. 

and also, wouldn't desmond have noticed himself if there wasn't any vehicle problems at all? why did we discuss that vehicle topic for so long then? 

we need some chemists experts a.s.a.p.

----------


## joachim

and now even some members question the efficacy of CB, even say the cosmo results are sugarcoated and so on. could it really be the case? if so, then we should close that storybook and forget about CB.

----------


## joachim

about the price:
someone said that maybe it's not required to apply CB every day, maybe only twice a week or so.
if that would be the case, then a 5% mixture would perhaps be ok as well, although still expensive.

----------


## ryan82

yep, its to expensive.  :Frown: 




> about the price:
> someone said that maybe it's not required to apply CB every day, maybe only twice a week or so.
> if that would be the case, then a 5% mixture would perhaps be ok as well, although still expensive.

----------


## joachim

> yep, its to expensive.


 if we would be sure that CB is effective and if we would do a large group buy i'm sure kane could cut the price down to at least 50%. i think it's only expensive when they produce small amounts, like when someone orders a few grams or so.

----------


## Justinian

I asked a little while ago if anybody knew if CB in current vehicles maintained hair or not. I couldn't find anything about it by searching. All the stories of people using I could find were of people not re-growing and then stopping because it is expensive. For all we know it could be a combination of dose and vehicle and not having the right form of CB at the time. That's why you need a lot of data from people using it, so that you can tell which was the problem. 

I'd have go imagine if people started buying it regularly the price would drop, in addition to if you could organize bulk orders and they agreed.

To the people talking about chest pain, COSMO stated that their Phase 1 hair trial (Which included 5% dose participants) didn't observe any androgen related side effects. As the other guy said, anxiety can easily cause that also.

----------


## ryan82

Well its a anti-androgen. So there will be no regrowth. It will keep DHT localy of the scalp. Its maybe more powerfully then RU. But if you increase RU % in minox or Neo .. then you have the same effect as CB ??? Can somebody confirm this? 





> I asked a little while ago if anybody knew if CB in current vehicles maintained hair or not. I couldn't find anything about it by searching. All the stories of people using I could find were of people not re-growing and then stopping because it is expensive. For all we know it could be a combination of dose and vehicle and not having the right form of CB at the time. That's why you need a lot of data from people using it, so that you can tell which was the problem. 
> 
> I'd have go imagine if people started buying it regularly the price would drop, in addition to if you could organize bulk orders and they agreed.
> 
> To the people talking about chest pain, COSMO stated that their Phase 1 hair trial (Which included 5% dose participants) didn't observe any androgen related side effects. As the other guy said, anxiety can easily cause that also.

----------


## diffuseloser

If we only had to apply it 2 or 3 times a week, it wouldn't be too bad. I think it would have to be used at at least 5% concentration. I've asked Kane about a bulk buy of CB so I'm waiting to hear back. I'll see if I can get a breakdown of prices in increments of 20g. I have no idea how many of you guys would be interested in a bulk buy. Whatever he comes back with, I'm going to be cheeky and try to haggle him a bit. At the end of the day, he's making money off this and I'm sure he'll be glad of the custom. It's early days yet and a lot of variables to consider.

----------


## joachim

the advantage of CB over RU was always said to be the safety aspect, as CB can't go systemic in theory. so it perfectly binds to the follicle's androgen receptors, no?

further, even it turns out that eth/pg vehicle is as good as the new versapro cream, isn't the cream not much better in terms of sideeffects? i mean, those standard vehicles always have those nasty effects like burning on the skin or making the skin dry. they're often simply too harsh, no? i still think that desmond's find is a great think, for all future topicals and maybe there's even a chance that we could deliver some growth factors with that cream vehicle.

----------


## diffuseloser

That's why I'm so hyped about CB. I think it's our one real shot of nailing this. There's so much stuff circulating on these forums that's not even worth talking about but with CB, I really believe it's something to be excited about. 

Versapro would be naturally good for the scalp. From what I've read it would combat dryness and irritation, much like any other cream. 

What's to stop us from trying RU with Versapro in the meantime? Surely that would be something to consider?

----------


## ryan82

the cost of Versapro cream is not expensive http://www.drugsdepot.com/catalog.ph...418&disp=price
Yes why not try it with RU ?  




> That's why I'm so hyped about CB. I think it's our one real shot of nailing this. There's so much stuff circulating on these forums that's not even worth talking about but with CB, I really believe it's something to be excited about. 
> 
> Versapro would be naturally good for the scalp. From what I've read it would combat dryness and irritation, much like any other cream. 
> 
> What's to stop us from trying RU with Versapro in the meantime? Surely that would be something to consider?

----------


## ryan82

So RU is not safe to use?





> the advantage of CB over RU was always said to be the safety aspect, as CB can't go systemic in theory. so it perfectly binds to the follicle's androgen receptors, no?
> 
> further, even it turns out that eth/pg vehicle is as good as the new versapro cream, isn't the cream not much better in terms of sideeffects? i mean, those standard vehicles always have those nasty effects like burning on the skin or making the skin dry. they're often simply too harsh, no? i still think that desmond's find is a great think, for all future topicals and maybe there's even a chance that we could deliver some growth factors with that cream vehicle.

----------


## walrus

> So RU is not safe to use?


 No one here is qualified to say with certainty.

----------


## diffuseloser

No drug is safe except marijuana. Ironically, it's the FDA approved drug that scares me the most. That's why I've never been brave enough to try finasteride. RU being topical, I feel a lot more comfortable with. I have no experience with finasteride, so I can't really slate it. All I can say is I'm glad I never took it to find out.

----------


## Phatalis

Yeah man. I mean.. maybe some dudes can use fin and be fine but don't let people tell you there aren't sides and it's completely safe.

I'm a healthy dude. I work out. I had an insaaaanneee libido. I took a very low dosage of fin for only 2 weeks. My libido dropped. My semen was watery. My orgasm was weak. My dick wasn't as hard. 

This all happened. It wasn't in my head. I was with my gf doing the same thing prior for months with no issues. I tried fin. Had issues. Got off.. they started to get better... tried again.. had issues. Both times were 2 week periods in the span of 2 months or so.

Fin definitely does something that isn't healthy. And I'm surprised people are weirded out by ru. Sure it's experimental and we don't know what it could do. But we do know what fin can do. And it's bad. Ru hadn't shown anything too bad.

With that said one could argue the evil we know is better than the one we don't. But no way I'm taking fin ever again. I can't imagine taking the normal dosage and can't even further imagine taking a strong Dos of dut. This shit must wreck systems in the body.

----------


## Phatalis

And when i say my libido dropped.. it was virtually non existant

----------


## joachim

> So RU is not safe to use?


 if i remember correctly, some users who tried RU also faced some side effects, more or less. and not everyone is seeing positive effects of RU. i'm not sure if hellouser still uses it... i think he stopped it some months ago... maybe back on it again. hellouser, what's the status with you?

----------


## diffuseloser

I hear you man. I made an informed decision not to take it... ever. It's thanks to guys like you that I arrived at that decision. Otherwise, I'd be on it and putting my sexual health at risk. I have an amazing girlfriend and I know I'm a very lucky man. We want to get married and start a family. It came down to sex/family vs hair and for me that was an easy choice. I tinkered with the idea for a long time. I really think finasteride is a dangerous drug. I ain't got the balls to go near it. Call me a coward if you want but I'm sticking with my decision. It's torturous losing your hair and it really gets me down sometimes but shit could be a whole lot worse, trust me. We just have to stay positive and try not to let it get to us. Anyway sorry for going off topic a bit but I do feel a lot more comfortable with RU and CB. Maybe I'm wrong.

----------


## diffuseloser

If you get sides, it's your body's way of telling you to get off the shit immediately. It's not natural. Same applies to any drug. I'm willing to take the risk with RU and CB. If there's sides, I'm off it and not messing with it no more.

----------


## Phatalis

Nah man. You're not a coward. Took me years to give it a try. And yes ru or cb for me unless they give sides too. I had to get a first hand exp with fin to know. And now I know... it's not for me. I like sex too much.

----------


## diffuseloser

Thanks man. Same goes for me. Sex is something we don't wanna mess with. I'd rather be completely bald than have issues there. Hair loss does make you insecure but you learn to deal with it after a while. The important thing is that we're moving in the right direction. Might not seem like it at times but things will get better before they get worse. We have RU and minoxidil to tide us over until CB comes to the fore. And if it's a let down it's nothing to cry about. Losing an arm or a leg is something to cry about and you see a lot of people with bigger issues than hair loss get on with it so let's try to take a leaf out of their book.

----------


## mlouis

> Spot on. Ironically CB-03-01 is way more experimental than RU-58841. The literature on it is incredibly scarce. Secondly, the vehicle was never a problem. The liphoplicity of CB-03-01 is even better than RU and has a lower molecular weight. There is no hypothetical reason to suggest it wouldn't work with a normal vehicle. The guys who used it at 5% said it was doing it's job while the guys who went with 2% and under never had real results. 
> 
> Also keep in mind that this is a *steroidal*  anti-androgen. They affect the cardiovascular system long-term if it goes systematic (cyproterone acetate). It has been proposed as not going systematic but this is only proven in a hamster flank organ test. 
> 
> Don't get hyped up by press releases especially from companies guys. You need regulated studies or either studies which are not affiliated with the company itself. Do you know how often they sugarcoat results or even influence them? To create attention and attract investors? . I wouldn't even be surprised if the results from this cream are way overthrown, you see it all the time. Be realistic and good luck.


 If vehicle isn't an issue then why did 17a-estradiol work so well in the Cosmo Phase 1 trial (nearly as well as CB)? If you ask me, that's proof that even a very weak anti-androgen can work if the vehicle allows for penetration (iontophoresis in this case).

----------


## Swooping

> If vehicle isn't an issue then why did 17a-estradiol work so well in the Cosmo Phase 1 trial (nearly as well as CB)? If you ask me, that's proof that even a very weak anti-androgen can work if the vehicle allows for penetration (iontophoresis in this case).


 Because the primary action of 17a-estradiol is not as a anti-androgen. It is a indirect anti-androgen. The hair follicle has estrogen receptors  too where it binds to and affects pathways through there. Estradiol has a long half life too and if it goes systematic it leads to a increase of SHBG and thus lowering your free testosterone. So it works on multiple levels and the anti-androgen effect of it is least important for hair growth actually. People can regrow ALLOT of hair on estrogen therapy.

----------


## mlouis

> Because the primary action of 17a-estradiol is not as a anti-androgen. It is a indirect anti-androgen. The hair follicle has estrogen receptors  too where it binds to and affects pathways through there. Estradiol has a long half life too and if it goes systematic it leads to a increase of SHBG and thus lowering your free testosterone. So it works on multiple levels and the anti-androgen effect of it is least important for hair growth actually. People can regrow ALLOT of hair on estrogen therapy.


 Understood. However, very few (if any) have ever reported success with 17a-estradiol. Yet when applied via iontophoresis results were quite good. I believe vehicle matters...a lot.

----------


## Swooping

> Understood. However, very few (if any) have ever reported success with 17a-estradiol. Yet when applied via iontophoresis results were quite good. I believe vehicle matters...a lot.


 You know these results are way to shiny for me anyway, especially because they only delivered 5 times. Perhaps iontophoresis makes all of them work this good. Just saying that CB is pound for pound a bit weaker than RU-58841 and as strong as cyproterone acetate so the most likely answer is to use a higher strength instead of other vehicle. Maybe iontophoresis is in a other league though and would make all compounds function better (something to explore), or cosmo is sugarcoating.

----------


## Kudu

> No drug is safe except marijuana. Ironically, it's the FDA approved drug that scares me the most.


 Right on man.

----------


## rdawg

Sounds like we may need a 5% solution for this to work. I'm worried some of you will do a 1% solution and have little to no results and say it doesn't work.


unfortunately 5% would cost me about $3000 for a years supply($1000 per 100 days) which is essentially HT cost over 3 years. Unfortunately for me im a diffuse thinner and need to stabalize my loss in order to get an HT :Frown: 

my only option now is to move to DUT and hope it helps. As an agressive hairloss sufferer FIN is not enough for me

----------


## mlouis

> You know these results are way to shiny for me anyway, especially because they only delivered 5 times. Perhaps iontophoresis makes all of them work this good. Just saying that CB is pound for pound a bit weaker than RU-58841 and as strong as cyproterone acetate so the most likely answer is to use a higher strength instead of other vehicle. Maybe iontophoresis is in a other league though and would make all compounds function better (something to explore), or cosmo is sugarcoating.


 Perhaps iontophoresis is in another league. Or perhaps any excellent transdermal vehicle is an another league. I certainly would not put PG/ethanol in that category. As for results being too shiny I highly doubt they were faked...we're dealing with a multi $b public company here.

----------


## diffuseloser

> Right on man.


 If weed could cure hair loss, I'd be a gorilla.

----------


## Kudu

> You know these results are way to shiny for me anyway, especially because they only delivered 5 times. Perhaps iontophoresis makes all of them work this good. Just saying that CB is pound for pound a bit weaker than RU-58841 and as strong as cyproterone acetate so the most likely answer is to use a higher strength instead of other vehicle. Maybe iontophoresis is in a other league though and would make all compounds function better (something to explore), or cosmo is sugarcoating.


 Iontophoresis would make a lot of topicals function better, and you wouldn't need to apply as much or as often. There's a study with iontophoresis and minoxidil sulfate in some sort of gel that was applied every three days I believe. The protocol yielded much better results. This is just an example of what we could do with a device. There are drawbacks, however, the active substance has to be charges or it's useless. Most of the drugs we would use need to be modified, and unfortunately I'm sure that would require some cash to say the least. Making CB a charged molecule and using iontophoresis appears to be complicated and more expensive. If a standard vehicle worked then why use something that requires a $12,000 machine? (The cheapest Hydro4 unit is $12,000 by the way.)

----------


## Kudu

> If weed could cure hair loss, I'd be a gorilla.


 Lol! I miss it so much. I stopped close to a year ago. Honestly, I think my hair loss accelerated after I quit, most likely due to the lack of a good stress reliever and being busier than I ever have in my life though.

----------


## diffuseloser

I agree. CB doesn't make sense at this stage. They're clearly on to something with iontophoresis so we just have to be patient. Maybe Versapro and CB might work on its own at higher concentrations, but we can't really afford to go down that route just yet. There are a lot of positives to be taken from this and it's given me a bit of a lift the past few days knowing we're on the right track. It's great to have input from all the forum members and I'm personally learning a lot from it and feeling pretty positive, so I appreciate it.

----------


## diffuseloser

Same here! Life has become pretty hectic so I've had to calm it down some but I definitely agree with that. I don't think I lost as much hair back then when I wasn't stressing as much. Maybe we should get back on it lol.

----------


## Kudu

I'd love to, but the Federal government doesn't agree lol. 

There's a couple of things that should also be taken into account. Desmond's initial posts state that Versapro is made for steroidal drugs like CB to give excellent penetration. If that's the case, maybe it will provide results at lower concentrations simply because of much better penetration, who knows. I'm not trying to be a blind optimist and I certainly understand those who are on the fence about it. Whether it be because of the price or the fact that it's experimental. I think we need to try and focus on finding a reasonable supplier somehow, that will be the next step.

Also, this came out of nowhere! We went from completely giving up hope a week ago to learning about the CB vehicle that has been discussed for ages. Gotta stay positive guys!

----------


## diffuseloser

Haha! True man. But it will be the first thing I do when I retire 30 years from now(hopefully with a nice big mop of long, grey hair).

What's frustrating for me, is the price. I'd love to be in a position that I could buy a good few grams of CB and give this a proper go. There's no point being anything but optimistic. We're not going anywhere with our heads buried in the sand. If we can manage to source a good supplier, who doesn't charge an arm and a leg, then I'm willing to give this a punt. It's only been a few days since we got this news, so we have plenty of time to sort out these issues and compare notes. I didn't post anything before this because there was really nothing to get excited about. We're making progress and it's only a matter of time before something comes good.

----------


## hellouser

> Haha! True man. But it will be the first thing I do when I retire 30 years from now(hopefully with a nice big mop of long, grey hair).
> 
> What's frustrating for me, is the price. I'd love to be in a position that I could buy a good few grams of CB and give this a proper go. There's no point being anything but optimistic. We're not going anywhere with our heads buried in the sand. If we can manage to source a good supplier, who doesn't charge an arm and a leg, then I'm willing to give this a punt. It's only been a few days since we got this news, so we have plenty of time to sort out these issues and compare notes. I didn't post anything before this because there was really nothing to get excited about. We're making progress and it's only a matter of time before something comes good.


 A few grams is cheap. A few grams consistently is not.

It should be interesting to see what 5% concentration does two or three times a week IN combination with RU.

----------


## diffuseloser

If we knew it worked, I wouldn't mind paying $250 a month. 

Are you planning to alter your regimen Hellouser? Are you still using RU? If so, how's that going for you? Are you planning to use Versapro and CB combination in addition to this? Haven't seen any posts on your progress recently unless I've missed something so just curious to know how things are going for you. Best of luck.

----------


## hellouser

> If we knew it worked, I wouldn't mind paying $250 a month. 
> 
> Are you planning to alter your regimen Hellouser? Are you still using RU? If so, how's that going for you? Are you planning to use Versapro and CB combination in addition to this? Haven't seen any posts on your progress recently unless I've missed something so just curious to know how things are going for you. Best of luck.


 I hopped off RU for a long time... quit Minox as well after I started up the whole dermarolling thing, I was shedding a lot... and still am. I've been back on RU for the last month or so. I was on it as well before on and off but not a lot. CB as I've mentioned I have on me but need that new vehicle. I'm willing to try it if someone can point me to a supplier that can ship to canada.

Oh yeah... I've also got Tofacitinib stuck in customs... I'm dying to try that more than anything else.

----------


## diffuseloser

Thanks for the update Hellouser. Your results with RU were pretty impressive. That's what encouraged me to start using it. Your guide was also fantastic. I still refer to it even now. I also tried dermarolling but it didn't last long. I didn't see any benefits. 

I take it you tried the links Desmond provided for Versapro? I don't know if you saw any of my earlier posts but I suggested to some of the other forum members we could put some money in a pot to keep you stocked up on CB. Don't know how you feel about that but you seem to be pretty methodical when it comes to these things so if you're up for that let us know. I don't know a damn thing about Tofacitinib but hope you get it from customs and I hope it works for you.

----------


## Xoxo

@hellouser: Sad to hear. Seemed you had great success with your regimen. Why did you change it? Did it get worse on it's own or after you changed something? Desmond wrote:




> $50 shipping fee for Versapro! Don't bother with them guys.
> If you live in USA, Australia and Canada, first google "Compounding Pharmacies" in your area. Contact the Pharmacy and see if they can order it in for you. They probably even have some on hand. 
> If you live in Europe or have difficulty getting it, let me know and I'll work out a way to send it to you. As I said, we get it for $20/100g and I can't imagine International shipping costing more than $10-$15.

----------


## hellouser

> Thanks for the update Hellouser. Your results with RU were pretty impressive. That's what encouraged me to start using it. Your guide was also fantastic. I still refer to it even now. I also tried dermarolling but it didn't last long. I didn't see any benefits.


 I'm glad it helped  :Smile:  




> I take it you tried the links Desmond provided for Versapro?


 Briefly, been too busy at work and prepping for a friends wedding (Im the best man).




> I don't know a damn thing about Tofacitinib but hope you get it from customs and I hope it works for you.


 It's the $2,000/month medication for arthritis that cured Kyle Rhodes and regrew all of his hair. It also goes by the name of Xeljanz. Dr. Angela Christiano is the doctor that sought to use it for Alopecia Areata years ago. Too bad no doctor gave a shit to try it on the 99% of hair loss sufferers that have AGA. Hence why I'm so damn eager to try it.

----------


## diffuseloser

It helped immensely. I read about Xeljanz briefly here in the forum but didn't really follow up on it. I'll look into it some more when I get the time. Sounds promising and hope it works. Anyway, enjoy the wedding. I've had to do best man twice and hopefully never again! No pressure.

----------


## hellouser

> It helped immensely. I read about Xeljanz briefly here in the forum but didn't really follow up on it. I'll look into it some more when I get the time. Sounds promising and hope it works. Anyway, enjoy the wedding. I've had to do best man twice and hopefully never again! No pressure.


 All the links from the effects of Tofacitinib sound more promising than anything else. That stuff, if it works, could reverse AGA completely. I even read one guy on *** (or SAGA?) mention it's effects are similar to Replicel's treatment.

----------


## StayThick

How the hell did you get access to a $2000/month arthritis drug to experiment with for baldness? Lol.

----------


## comb0ver

have you seen the list of side effects for xeljanz?

----------


## breakbot

> How the hell did you get access to a $2000/month arthritis drug to experiment with for baldness? Lol.


 I think he is lying.He tries to push others test this shit.
This drug is way too dangerous.Nobody should listen to these hellouser's crap.
Anything that has to do with the functionality of the immune system could cause serious side effects, with first of all guess what....

----------


## hellouser

> I think he is lying.He tries to push others test this shit.
> This drug is way too dangerous.Nobody should listen to these hellouser's crap.
> Anything that has to do with the functionality of the immune system could cause serious side effects, with first of all guess what....


 Why the hell would I lie about myself being ready to trial Tofacitinib and then say it's stuck in customs? Do you even logic, bro?

The only person lying here is you. I've never pushed for anyone to try anything... you COULD make the argument that I wanted someone to try FGF-9, but that was last year and I never pushed it on anyone. You've easily got me mistaken for that other guy who's obsessed about Adipose Derived Stem Cells (which I don't really care for). Furthermore, if you had read the studies on a topical solution of Tofacitinib, you'd know that the substance was WELL tolerated with minimal adverse effects. Perhaps it would do you good if you did some basic reading? If it was as dangerous as you make it out to be, why is it an FDA approved drug???




> How the hell did you get access to a $2000/month arthritis drug to experiment with for baldness? Lol.


 Private forum, group buy, black market, shipped from china via Fedex only to get SWIPED by Canada Customs and sent out for lab testing (which pisses me off, I wanna try the damn stuff on AGA seeing how no doctor has bother to do it). Hopefully the stuff gets released, it aint contraband.

The stuff doesn't actually cost THAT much to make. The $2,000 price tag is to cover Pfizer's R&D and clinical trials costs as well as insurance should it ever have unexpected side effects in the future (class action lawsuit)... think Merck and all the limp dicks its created.

----------


## jjo

> All the links from the effects of Tofacitinib sound more promising than anything else. That stuff, if it works, could reverse AGA completely. I even read one guy on *** (or SAGA?) mention it's effects are similar to Replicel's treatment.


 
hey hell could you post some links so i can read up on this... i'm no well informed on this treatment.  thanks

----------


## joachim

> All the links from the effects of Tofacitinib sound more promising than anything else. That stuff, if it works, could reverse AGA completely. I even read one guy on *** (or SAGA?) mention it's effects are similar to Replicel's treatment.


 wow... but for how long will you use it? are you expecting to see results within the first weeks? how many months of treatments are you willing to pay for? because if you only thought of using it for one month or so, that wouldn't make sense.

----------


## walrus

> If it was as dangerous as you make it out to be, why is it an *FDA approved drug*???
> 
> [...]black market, shipped from china


 Do you trust the Chinese black market with your health? Are you going to get it laboratory tested and verified to know that you are not swallowing rat poison?

----------


## hellouser

> Do you trust the Chinese black market with your health? Are you going to get it laboratory tested and verified to know that you are not swallowing rat poison?


 That's a pretty grand assumption. You also seem to dismiss the fact that I clearly stated it'd be a topical solution. Why do you have a problem with people trying out something that could be beneficial to you?

----------


## walrus

> That's a pretty grand assumption.


 Is it a grand assumption that a drug obtained through unregulated channels without stringent quality control procedures might not be legitimate?




> Why do you have a problem with people trying out something that could be beneficial to you?


 Because I am not here to encourage people to engage in potentially dangerous bedroom experiments with drugs for my own personal gain.

----------


## hellouser

> Is it a grand assumption that a drug obtained through unregulated channels without stringent quality control procedures might not be legitimate?


 Yes because you know nothing about the source.




> Because I am not here to encourage people to engage in potentially dangerous bedroom experiments with drugs for my own personal gain.


 Then shut up because *I'M* the one thats close to trialing Tofacitinib so you're input is irrelevant.

----------


## sdsurfin

Tofacitilinib or however the hell you spell it is not going to cure mpb.  If the researchers thought that it was, they would already be making headlines towards that end.  They are not officially trialling it for mob because they know it is not the right thing. Multiple sources have stated that they will test it on MPB, but no clinical trials planned. I'm sure they have considered possible benefits for mob vs. side effects cost etc and it is not an option.  No one has a conspiracy to only help those with AA. Everyone wants money and recognition, and solving mob would bring both.  These are two separate diseases with one related symptom, and though there might be similarities in the pathways, there's no way that a very expensive and potentially risky drug for areata is the answer for the mpb forum members. 

that being said, hellouser should feel free to try that shit on his head, i'm curious to see if it has any effect at all, and whatever effect it does or doesn't have might be useful information for researchers to know about.  

I have very low expectations of replicel, but I also think that it could be the next decent option we have for maintenance without having to constantly apply expensive shit on the head, which honestly is enough to turn me and most other guys away from treating this annoying condition.  I also wonder whether shiseido is opening its facility not just to test replicels approach, but also to prepare for improved cell therapies down the line. my hunch is that that is the case. the future of medicine in general is stem cells and autologous therapies, and my guess is that having such a facility is a step towards that future even if they think replicel isn't all that great.  I don't think it matters much to shiseido whether it works well or not, they are a huge corporation, and if they don't use the facility to make replicels hair product, they will use it to make one of the other countless cell therapies being worked on for other parts of the body.

----------


## Kudu

I really don't get why everyone is jumping on Hellouser all of a sudden. You guys make him sound like he's selling Tofacitilinib yelling "this is the cure!". Whether it's experimental drugs or FDA approved drugs they're still exactly that, drugs. This is a forum on the internet, people can look up just about whatever they want to buy and use. I'm pretty sure a few people discussing what they're trying to help their hair loss isn't going to change that. When I first started lurking on the forum, his RU log was one of the first things I read. Did I immediately go purchase RU and start using it on my head? No, but it did open my eyes and make me think "hey, there might be things out there that could help my situation that is more than a vitamin supplement or a prostate medication".

----------


## pagedo

I think the conversation is starting to derail. I'll be ordering 1g of CB and will be making a 5% solution out of the vesparo cream which should yield about 20mg.

----------


## petewete

Anybody here in the Orange County, CA (Southern California) area that might want to go in on some splitsville action for both the CB and the super vehicle VERSAPRO?

----------


## diffuseloser

Good luck pagedo. Did you see the link I posted earlier about the doubling method? This will be useful to you when you acquire your CB and Versapro. Only very basic apparatus needed. Here it is again...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFkcAJBGXek

----------


## diffuseloser

"Thanks for your contact.
Price for 20g:USD3600
Shipping charge:USD50"

That works out at $180 per gram of CB for a group buy, saving $20 per gram. I was expecting a little better but I'll try to negotiate $3000 for 20g which would work out at $150 each.

----------


## diffuseloser

40g of CB from Kane is $7000. $175 per gram and that's non negotiable. I tried.

----------


## walrus

> Yes because you know nothing about the source.


 If you obtained a substance from the 'Chinese black market' and have not independently verified it in a laboratory, neither do you. 




> *I'M* the one thats close to trialing Tofacitinib so you're input is irrelevant.


 You are clearly determined and accepting of the risks (of both black market drug use, and Tofacitinib specifically). My input is relevant to other readers who may be taken in by your brazen assurances and act similarly.

----------


## phalpal

> If you obtained a substance from the 'Chinese black market' and have not independently verified it in a laboratory, neither do you. 
> 
> 
> 
> You are clearly determined and accepting of the risks (of both black market drug use, and Tofacitinib specifically). My input is relevant to other readers who may be taken in by your brazen assurances and act similarly.


 
the source and product were legit; if you dont take the initiative to try anything and potentially further the community, why do you feel like you have the right to discourage those who do? Any adult on here with half a brain can decide for themselves whether what hell is doing is right for them or not, he isn't telling anyone else to try it.

----------


## lupero83

I asked my dermatologist about cb-03-01 is a type well known in europe working in a medical center of renown which is not saying not to publicize it. 

He told me that in principle cb-03-01 by the end of 2015 could be approved by the european union or the FDA. I told him if it would be possible to use it for baldness and told me to be almost certain that will be made as with dutasteride or bimatoprost. 

greetings, Sorry for my bad English

----------


## Phatalis

Yeah. ..walrus. You're kind of wasting everyone's time. If dude wants to experiment. Let him. If others follow suit...they're adults. Let them.

You're just being an idiot and going on a tangent when this thread isn't about your topic. Go waste Internet space somewhere else with all that.

----------


## ryan82

How does your dermatologist comes with this information? haha lol  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I asked my dermatologist about cb-03-01 is a type well known in europe working in a medical center of renown which is not saying not to publicize it. 
> 
> He told me that in principle cb-03-01 by the end of 2015 could be approved by the european union or the FDA. I told him if it would be possible to use it for baldness and told me to be almost certain that will be made as with dutasteride or bimatoprost. 
> 
> greetings, Sorry for my bad English

----------


## pagedo

> Good luck pagedo. Did you see the link I posted earlier about the doubling method? This will be useful to you when you acquire your CB and Versapro. Only very basic apparatus needed. Here it is again...
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFkcAJBGXek


 Thanks man. Yea I did watch the video and I'll be mixing the solution using the doubling method - dude in the video takes his job way too seriously lol.

----------


## Seuxin

Hello,

Anyone know if the Kane shop will re-sell CB-03-01?

----------


## Kudu

My plan is to use RU with this vehicle and CB a couple of times a week, like what was posted earlier. It's just too expensive for daily continuous use.

----------


## hellouser

> My plan is to use RU with this vehicle and CB a couple of times a week, like what was posted earlier. It's just too expensive for daily continuous use.


 That should still provide some good results... at least a better job of slowing down balding.

----------


## Jasari

> Hello,
> 
> Anyone know if the Kane shop will re-sell CB-03-01?


 You need to email them. It's 200 USD plus 50 USD for shipping. The cream is about 20 USD for 100g.

I'm looking to give this a go but 3 months are going to run about $750. Definitely tough pricing for an unproven solution.

----------


## rdawg

> 40g of CB from Kane is $7000. $175 per gram and that's non negotiable. I tried.


 Agressive hairloss sufferers will need to go on the 5% solution guarenteed, that's 875 for a 3 month supply, ridiculous price!! 

This seems like the kind of thing we may need to wait until cosmo is finished with the trials for, because unless you are very well off, youre gonna  be out 3500 a year just to MAINTAIN your hair, might as well get an HT, or unfortunately for agressive sufferers like me youd have to keep buying CB AND get an HT.

----------


## Desmond84

Hey guys. I just got 6 Versapro creams in. Its only $20 for a 100g jar. I can get larger ones too if you guys like. It also comes in a 500g and 1kg jar.

Anyone that likes some email me and I'll send it to you. I'll post some shipping fee from Aus to other countries tonight. My email is: real_sawyer@hotmail.com

Btw since so many of us eant to order CB from Kane can't he do a better deal? Someone should email him onbehalf of everyone. Just an idea. Lets get this over and done with.

----------


## Hairismylife

> Hey guys. I just got 6 Versapro creams in. Its only $20 for a 100g jar. I can get larger ones too if you guys like. It also comes in a 500g and 1kg jar.
> 
> Anyone that likes some email me and I'll send it to you. I'll post some shipping fee from Aus to other countries tonight. My email is: real_sawyer@hotmail.com
> 
> Btw since so many of us eant to order CB from Kane can't he do a better deal? Someone should email him onbehalf of everyone. Just an idea. Lets get this over and done with.


 I want but this bothers you so much.  I can order by myself but could you please post the link of ordering again?  Thanks

----------


## ryan82

Hi Desmond84, Maybe i am not so smart, but can you explain why CB is better than RU ? This question is still on my mind.  Is it stronger? lets say Versapro is the vehicle for CB. What do you expect whats happen? regrowth or no hairloss anymore.  





> Hey guys. I just got 6 Versapro creams in. Its only $20 for a 100g jar. I can get larger ones too if you guys like. It also comes in a 500g and 1kg jar.
> 
> Anyone that likes some email me and I'll send it to you. I'll post some shipping fee from Aus to other countries tonight. My email is: real_sawyer@hotmail.com
> 
> Btw since so many of us eant to order CB from Kane can't he do a better deal? Someone should email him onbehalf of everyone. Just an idea. Lets get this over and done with.

----------


## LMS

> Hi Desmond84, Maybe i am not so smart, but can you explain why CB is better than RU ? This question is still on my mind.  Is it stronger? lets say Versapro is the vehicle for CB. What do you expect whats happen? regrowth or no hairloss anymore.


 I don't think we know exactly if CB is stronger or weaker than RU.  However, if I were to guess I think RU is stronger.  The attractive thing about CB is that it will in theory, have no systematic (anti androgen effects).

However, in the end it is just another anti androgen like RU so you can only hope to stop your balding and perhaps if you are lucky regrow a small amount of hair.

----------


## ShookOnes

> Hi Desmond84, Maybe i am not so smart, but can you explain why CB is better than RU ? This question is still on my mind.  Is it stronger? lets say Versapro is the vehicle for CB. What do you expect whats happen? regrowth or no hairloss anymore.


 
CB is being developed by a multi billiondollar company. (COSMO). Yes, it is stronger. regrowth should happen as it happens to most fin users (and it is stronger and better than fin in terms of strength and no virtual side effect as it is rendered useless in our blood). "no hairloss anymore" is the purpose of this drug.

----------


## pagedo

> That should still provide some good results... at least a better job of slowing down balding.


 I sent you a PM on ***.

----------


## Justinian

> Hi Desmond84, Maybe i am not so smart, but can you explain why CB is better than RU ? This question is still on my mind.  Is it stronger? lets say Versapro is the vehicle for CB. What do you expect whats happen? regrowth or no hairloss anymore.


 We won't really know until the phase 2 trial is completed sometime next year. That one is using a cream/gel or something like that. The phase 1 trial used a special device which delivers an electrical current and got significant re growth, but that may have been because of the device. My gut feel is that it will be similar results to finasteride but side effect free.

----------


## lupero83

I asked about cb for acne



> How does your dermatologist comes with this information? haha lol

----------


## Jasari

I've ordered a 3 month supply of Cb & the Versapro cream. I'm wondering though, if this  turns out to be a bust - Would there be any contraindication to taking fin along with the daily application of Cb?

[At this point I doubt fin is working for me, but by the same token, I may lose a lot of ground if I stop]

----------


## Pelopeleon

Is not supposed to be only one or two doses at week? Or it is only using iontophorensis?
If it is the first case, buying Cb will be "cheaper" because it will last more time.

----------


## Kudu

> Is not supposed to be only one or two doses at week? Or it is only using iontophorensis?
> If it is the first case, buying Cb will be "cheaper" because it will last more time.


 The problem is that we really don't know. Iontophoresis gives excellent penetration and allows you to use a smaller amount because it pushes all of the active chemical to the receptor. The thing is though, Versapro supposedly gives excellent penetration deep into the dermal layer as well. I'm still not positive that a 1% concentration wouldn't work, or that we would only need to use it a couple of times a week. We don't know.

----------


## rdawg

> I asked my dermatologist about cb-03-01 is a type well known in europe working in a medical center of renown which is not saying not to publicize it. 
> 
> He told me that in principle cb-03-01 by the end of 2015 could be approved by the european union or the FDA. I told him if it would be possible to use it for baldness and told me to be almost certain that will be made as with dutasteride or bimatoprost. 
> 
> greetings, Sorry for my bad English


 interesting, I hope this is true, hopefully CB will get cheaper as well.

im sorry but I just cant justify 3000 a year on CB to maintain and maybe grow a little bit of hair. the 1% solution most likely isnt enough to do anything! although I'll gladly watch to see how you guys are doing then think about it. 

i'm gonna get on DUT 1-2 times a week now to help a little more, was always hoping for BIM to be released that trial is done soon!

----------


## Kudu

Is there any way we could find a reliable lab that could make CB for us at a reasonable price? Obviously there would be a good bit of people buying it if that were the case.

----------


## ShookOnes

> Is there any way we could find a reliable lab that could make CB for us at a reasonable price? Obviously there would be a good bit of people buying it if that were the case.


 patents.

----------


## TimJermaine

Wow wow wow. A couple weeks off from the forums and I come back to this thread! Amazing! I'm the guy who started the thread "Let's Get CB DONE"...this is amazing news thanks so much Desmond.

Now the question is..are a lot of people putting themselves out there as guinea pigs to try this? I'm considering ordering the Vesapro and CB, I don't care how expensive it is. But in terms of safety.. CB is a topical being developed for Acne, and Versapro has been tested extensively..so there shouldn't be any crazy side effects right?

----------


## rdawg

> Wow wow wow. A couple weeks off from the forums and I come back to this thread! Amazing! I'm the guy who started the thread "Let's Get CB DONE"...this is amazing news thanks so much Desmond.
> 
> Now the question is..are a lot of people putting themselves out there as guinea pigs to try this? I'm considering ordering the Vesapro and CB, I don't care how expensive it is. But in terms of safety.. CB is a topical being developed for Acne, and Versapro has been tested extensively..so there shouldn't be any crazy side effects right?


 
No there shouldnt be side effects but there are so many different variables to worry about still! 

Is a 1% solution enough? how many times a week? is 7 days a week necessary? What happens if 1% doesnt work for some people but all they needed to do was use 5%? I feel like a lot of those people will just claim it doesnt work when they were just using too weak of a dose.

Honestly I think the only way to truly see if this stuff works is to use a 5% solution DAILY for three months especially if you have agressive hairloss!(maybe take a day or two off here and there), only then we will know. Still though that's gonna be hard as that will cost 800+ dollars!

----------


## Kudu

> Wow wow wow. A couple weeks off from the forums and I come back to this thread! Amazing! I'm the guy who started the thread "Let's Get CB DONE"...this is amazing news thanks so much Desmond.
> 
> Now the question is..are a lot of people putting themselves out there as guinea pigs to try this? I'm considering ordering the Vesapro and CB, I don't care how expensive it is. But in terms of safety.. CB is a topical being developed for Acne, and Versapro has been tested extensively..so there shouldn't be any crazy side effects right?


 I was wondering when you'd see how it exploded in such a short period of time haha.
To me, Finasteride is five times the risk compared to using CB. It's a topical, it's in trials for multiple uses, and it supposedly breaks down in your blood stream causing no side effects. Versapro has also been used as a moisturizer if I remember correctly, I don't really see any issues there.

----------


## TimJermaine

Ok sweet. Now is it possible to order the 5% solution from Kane? Or is that just 1%? And Desmond can hook us up with Versapro? Or is there a site for that to order it from.

And lastly..has anyone mixed the Versapro with CB and actually tried an application yet? You feel any different lol? I think I'm going to order it today as soon as I get the details of where.

----------


## Kudu

> Ok sweet. Now is it possible to order the 5% solution from Kane? Or is that just 1%? And Desmond can hook us up with Versapro? Or is there a site for that to order it from.
> 
> And lastly..has anyone mixed the Versapro with CB and actually tried an application yet? You feel any different lol? I think I'm going to order it today as soon as I get the details of where.


 You gotta email kane to order CB, it's not on the website right now for some reason.
Then take 1 gram of CB and mix it with 100 grams Versapro using the doubling method shown in the videos posted earlier, that will make a 1% solution I believe. You would need 5 grams of CB to make a 5% solution. Everybody is waiting on Versapro right now I believe. Some people have contacted Desmond, others have obtained it from other sources. I'm saving up some cash right now so it'll probably be a week or two for me.

----------


## Jasari

> No there shouldnt be side effects but there are so many different variables to worry about still! 
> 
> Is a 1% solution enough? how many times a week? is 7 days a week necessary? What happens if 1% doesnt work for some people but all they needed to do was use 5%? I feel like a lot of those people will just claim it doesnt work when they were just using too weak of a dose.
> 
> Honestly I think the only way to truly see if this stuff works is to use a 5% solution DAILY for three months especially if you have agressive hairloss!(maybe take a day or two off here and there), only then we will know. Still though that's gonna be hard as that will cost 800+ dollars!


 The percentage issue is potentially damaging. At one percent the treatment is around $250 per months. Once you hit around 4-5% you border on weekly housing rental prices [$1500 PM] just to continue CB.

Fingers crossed something comes along to improve CB's viability financially.

----------


## cichlidfort

> The percentage issue is potentially damaging. At one percent the treatment is around $250 per months. Once you hit around 4-5% you border on weekly housing rental prices [$1500 PM] just to continue CB.
> 
> Fingers crossed something comes along to improve CB's viability financially.


 That's ridiculous. I hate how companies take advantage of people's desperation.

----------


## hellouser

> The percentage issue is potentially damaging. At one percent the treatment is around $250 per months. Once you hit around 4-5% you border on weekly housing rental prices [$1500 PM] just to continue CB.
> 
> Fingers crossed something comes along to improve CB's viability financially.


 You need to work on your math skills.

----------


## ryan82

Thanks for answering  :Smile:  electrical current you say? damn its going high tec shit now :P 
Yes i have also the feeling that this wont give regrowth, only preventing hairloss. But this sounds very interesting. 




> We won't really know until the phase 2 trial is completed sometime next year. That one is using a cream/gel or something like that. The phase 1 trial used a special device which delivers an electrical current and got significant re growth, but that may have been because of the device. My gut feel is that it will be similar results to finasteride but side effect free.

----------


## ryan82

its so frustrating that every thing is possible.. ONLY F*cking hairloss we still stuck at. grr The gouverment cuts all the money for research of hairloss i think, because they don't see that as a problem. On topic: well i hope this is better then RU. 





> I don't think we know exactly if CB is stronger or weaker than RU.  However, if I were to guess I think RU is stronger.  The attractive thing about CB is that it will in theory, have no systematic (anti androgen effects).
> 
> However, in the end it is just another anti androgen like RU so you can only hope to stop your balding and perhaps if you are lucky regrow a small amount of hair.

----------


## ryan82

+1



> That's ridiculous. I hate how companies take advantage of people's desperation.

----------


## ryan82

ah ok i understand sorry. 



> I asked about cb for acne

----------


## Kudu

Do you guys think RU will work with this vehicle? RU isn't a steroid, but Versapro is also used for hormonal therapies. If it does work, how many grams of RU do I add to 100 grams of Versapro for an effective topical?

----------


## Bald Russian

Oh my god! Finally i can post here! Cant believe this that i joined to btt community!
Im reading btt since 2008. I was in "read only" mode because of moderators that didnt approve my accounts and never answered to my e-mails, i just tried for the luck.
First of all - Hello to everyone!
Hellouser, tell me more plz about your experiment with Tofacitinib!
Im interested because it is last chance for me.
Lets face the truth, cure never comes or maybe it will come when already will nobody care of us, because we will be about 40+ age (at least me, im 26 now + 10 years =36 so i think i will not going to care about hair in 36).
Why im interested - Russia is country of corruption, our government accepts for money any experiments on human, so Big Pharma likes to do trials in Russia. And Tofacitinib is accepted here (also bimatoprost and gonna soon ramotramban and some other i forgot it name, it gonna take effect on crth pathway and fgf9 made to cure asthma, it was on 3rd stage of trials, the last one). I can buy it right now, its about ~1000$ for 56 ampulas with 5mg of substance in each.
But when i read about side effects i was horrified, i really dont want to take it inside. So how are you going to apply it? Topical? Which vehicle are you going to use?

----------


## Kudu

Привет, как дела? If I remember correctly. I agree, it would be great if you could elaborate on Tofacitilinib Hellouser. So what you're saying is that these drugs are easily accessible in Russia?

----------


## Bald Russian

> Привет, как дела?


 Hahahah privet! (hello on russian), im fine. Where are you from? Yep its pretty easy to get it. Just simply walk to drugstore.
Even if need prescribe - they will sell it without it, because 1000$ - is great money for selling 1 pack, 1k$ is month payment for some people here. So if they will find some man that want to buy without prescribe, they better close their eyes on absence of prescribe.

----------


## Kudu

I'm from the US but my grandfather lived in Ukraine and Russia before he immigrated here, my Cyrillic is out of practice so you will have to forgive me for that haha. It's funny how some countries regulate some things while at the same time let you do what you want, then in others it's the opposite. Why were you not allowed to join here?

----------


## Bald Russian

> my Cyrillic is out of practice so you will have to forgive me for that haha.


  Man, your Cyrillic is fine. 



> Why were you not allowed to join here?


 Dont know, better ask admins, after logging i always saw a message "your account is waiting for admin's approval". I wrote e-mail but havent seen any answer.

----------


## Kudu

Thanks! Well at least you managed to join. How bad is your hair loss? I am not sure how well tofacitilinib will work in our case, but I don't really know that much about it. I don't want to take this thread way off topic so maybe you can make a new thread to discuss your situation and what you are trying to do.

----------


## Bald Russian

> How bad is your hair loss?


 4-5 norwood. Im already accepted baldness, anyway girls dont like me, so why i have to be worried about baldness? To face truth we care about hair to be  attractive. Sometimes i'm asking myself why i torture with all that chemicals myself? Anyway no gf. Just reading sometimes btt, most news are negative and nothing promise a cure.
At least i decided to be a drug dealer like Walter White. I'm balding chemist, so nothing to lose, no gf no friends, no future in russia (i call it - Snowy Nigeria). I think i'm going to shave my head soon, already dont apllying minox on top, just on beard.
Sorry for negative post...

----------


## diffuseloser

Welcome to the forum Bald Russian. Try not to let it get you down man. You're not alone. We all know that feeling all too well but hair loss shouldn't hold you back from enjoying your life. Don't let it! The less you worry about women, the more likely they are to come crawling out of the woodwork.

----------


## nursedude22

> That's ridiculous. I hate how companies take advantage of people's desperation.


 Hey man, random question. Are you on finasteride/propecia? If so, did you get good results?
Been reading your threads and I'm suffering the same odd pattern baldness (Retrograde Alopecia). I just want to know if propecia is worth taking....

----------


## TimJermaine

Anyone know where I could get some Versapro? I contacted Kane and am ready to order some CB

----------


## burtandernie

Drug companies dont take advantage of people except for heptatitis c cures or cancer drug prices. Until CB has some reliable supplier here in US or somewhere that falls under real regulations to assure its safe I wouldnt touch the stuff. Your way way better off taking your chances with propecia if you can tolerate it. In a few years you can switch over to the safer CB once it can be bought reliably. Experimental chemicals are much more dangerous than propecia

----------


## Jasari

> You need to work on your math skills.


 I wish. $250 a pop by 5 = $1250 + $50 Shippong = $1300. Versapro running at $35 per 100ml x 5 with $25 Shipping = $1500.

Even at reduced rates the cost is ways above what 99% of the population can afford.

I'm going to give it a go but its far from sustainable.

----------


## Xoxo

> You need to work on your math skills.


 


> I wish. $250 a pop by 5 = $1250 + $50 Shippong = $1300. Versapro running at $35 per 100ml x 5 with $25 Shipping = $1500.


 Nah, your math skills do kind of suck. 1g will last for 100 days (and not 1 month) if you use the 1% mixture as you wrote. Also I thought it was $200 instead of $250 for CB (Correct me if I'm wrong). The Versapro cream is about 20$ for 100g + let's say 15$ for shipping.
So nowhere near the $1500 per month. But still pretty expensive. I agree that we should try to find a cheaper source for CB.
Don't know what to think of the vehicle problem if there was any at all.

----------


## hellouser

> Nah, your math skills do kind of suck. 1g will last for 100 days (and not 1 month) if you use the 1% mixture as you wrote. Also I thought it was $200 instead of $250 for CB (Correct me if I'm wrong). The Versapro cream is about 20$ for 100g + let's say 15$ for shipping.
> So nowhere near the $1500 per month. But still pretty expensive. I agree that we should try to find a cheaper source for CB.
> Don't know what to think of the vehicle problem if there was any at all.


 Exactly, the guy's numbers were way off and very misleading to everyone reading his reply.

Only way to get the price of CB down to affordable levels is to do massive group buys... i'm talking in the kilograms for many dozens if not hundreds of people.

----------


## diffuseloser

I agree with that. I've already tried haggling with Kane for 20g increments to no avail. It would only work out about $10 or $20 cheaper for each of us. We'd have to be buying CB in kilos to have any discount worth talking about. Either that or we start studying chemistry.

----------


## pagedo

> I agree with that. I've already tried haggling with Kane for 20g increments to no avail. It would only work out about $10 or $20 cheaper for each of us. We'd have to be buying CB in kilos to have any discount worth talking about. Either that or we start studying chemistry.


 Before we start sourcing other chemists or even organizing a large group buy for the sake of long term affordability and consistency, we need to trial this solution to see if it even works. The CB studies showed a marked increase in hair density and diameter by the first week alone using iontophoresis. My hunch is - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that the delivery of our active solute into the trans dermal layer using VersaPro though not as efficient as iontophoresis, would need about 4-12 weeks to assess if its working at stopping hairloss and/or regrowth. 

We need a thread of users who are participating that can list the source of their CB, application frequency, strength 1% - 5%, mention if their on any other medications, and report in every week or so to give us all an update.

I'm just waiting on my CB now - I quite genuinely feel that this may actually be it.

----------


## hellouser

> *Before we start sourcing other chemists or even organizing a large group buy* for the sake of long term affordability and consistency, we need to trial this solution to see if it even works. The CB studies showed a marked increase in hair density and diameter by the first week alone using iontophoresis. My hunch is - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that the delivery of our active solute into the trans dermal layer using VersaPro though not as efficient as iontophoresis, would need about 4-12 weeks to assess if its working at stopping hairloss and/or regrowth. 
> 
> We need a thread of users who are participating that can list the source of their CB, application frequency, strength 1% - 5%, mention if their on any other medications, and report in every week or so to give us all an update.
> 
> I'm just waiting on my CB now - I quite genuinely feel that this may actually be it.


 Such a thing has been done many times already... with prices well below Kane's.

----------


## pagedo

> Such a thing has been done many times already... with prices well below Kane's.


 I have been a part of past group buys and was one of the few people who originally trialed the first CB (not in its right form) that was arranged from the old private forums. 
I'm suggesting that our biggest priority should be to see if both the solute from kane and the VersaPro solvent can get us the results similar to cosmo's original study. Once we know it works, we can then start buying a little more competitively. And if its been purchased in the past with prices much lower than Kane's then great - we know we have options.

----------


## Justinian

If Versapro ends up being effective and a lot more people start buying CB, then theoretically the prices would drop. There would be more competition if more labs start selling it, and it's cheaper to mass produce things. This might not apply to Chinese Black market labs though haha

----------


## jridd9

first thing that needs to be done is to establish the effectiveness of the compound, if you've got active mbp I.e likely to have signs of dermatitis (itching, flaking) those should be fairly easy to see an early effect on (in fact this was one of the measures in the trials have been carried out). If you can establish it works and is practical you won't have a shortage of people who are willing to purchase it.

----------


## kantian

If somebody wants to do a group buy to get prices down, I'll sign up.

----------


## hellouser

> If somebody wants to do a group buy to get prices down, I'll sign up.


 You might want to look into Pioneering Hair Growth.

----------


## cichlidfort

> You might want to look into Pioneering Hair Growth.


 Is that some sort of collection of people that do group buys?

----------


## hellouser

> Is that some sort of collection of people that do group buys?


 Pretty much  :Smile:

----------


## jridd9

you might as well find out if this is going to work out and if so start using it. cosmo  still have to design there phase 3 for acne, once they've done that the trial itself generally takes 3 years then it's evaluated up to another 2 years. (thats roughly 5 years)  and the alopecia formulation is hasn't even stated phase 2 yet. Dunno about you but thats a f'in long time to wait.

----------


## cantstopwontstop

The majority of this thread seems rather experienced. Quick question. may seem silly but i just ordered 50 ml Ru solution off of Anagenic inc. It wasnt clear if a carrier was added. i selected PG+Ethenol but it wasnt clear on if it was already added or not. Just slightly confused. I plan on adding this to lipogaine. Any advice?

----------


## Kudu

^There is a thread for RU.
Anyway, I broke and ordered 2 grams of CB instead of My original plan of using CB/RU through the week. Hopefully this will give some decent results at a 2% mixture. I can't afford 5%, which sucks. All I lack now is getting a hold of Versapro. Anybody started using this yet?

----------


## jridd9

get this des too send you it from his pharmacy

----------


## Kudu

> get this des too send you it from his pharmacy


 I may, but I hate to be a bother to someone who has done so much for us. No telling how many people have sent him an email asking for it lol.

----------


## pagedo

> I may, but I hate to be a bother to someone who has done so much for us. No telling how many people have sent him an email asking for it lol.


 Ask any local compounding pharmacy - they should be able to sell it to you no questions asked.

----------


## ryan82

> Pretty much


 wow we have hellhouser and now the copy Hellouser  :Confused:   lol

----------


## Jasari

> Nah, your math skills do kind of suck. 1g will last for 100 days (and not 1 month) if you use the 1% mixture as you wrote. Also I thought it was $200 instead of $250 for CB (Correct me if I'm wrong). The Versapro cream is about 20$ for 100g + let's say 15$ for shipping.
> So nowhere near the $1500 per month. But still pretty expensive. I agree that we should try to find a cheaper source for CB.
> Don't know what to think of the vehicle problem if there was any at all.


 I haven't heard any quotes suggesting that 1% solution would last 100 days, if thats the case it's not so bad. I was quoted at $250 via email from Kane.

If CB can be bought for $200 per gram - A 3% solution could work out to around $200 per month. It's expensive but not so bad - You can drop that on a night out in the city.

Can anyone confirm the 100 day figure? If this is the case I'll happily invest to give 5% a go for 3-4 Months.

----------


## lifelonglearning

Got 2 bottles of versa pro in the mail today, however I think I will wait for someone else to test this this out before ordering CB. Hellouser are you going to start using it anytime soon?

----------


## lothar99

I bought this vehicle, but I don't see how it works. CB isn't soluble in it, even when vehicle is heated to melting. If anyone tries this, dissolve the vehicle in PG first. I didn't try this, but I'm not wasting any more CB in this. I don't know why there are so many people who are interested in CB but no one tried the vehicle from the patent which works just fine. Looking forward to trying the liquid vehicle from PHG

----------


## TimJermaine

Where are you guys getting Versapro and how can I get it. I'm sure Desmond is super busy and can't possibly ship out Versapro to EVERYONE on here who wants it.

----------


## lupero83

someone is trying this ?

----------


## Pelopeleon

I read somewhere that Cb was not working because the molecule is too big to enter by itself, or something like that, so you need something like the iontophoresis device to make it work... So, what difference you have comparing versapro with some alcohol vehicle?

----------


## hellouser

> I read somewhere that Cb was not working because the molecule is too big to enter by itself, or something like that, so you need something like the iontophoresis device to make it work... So, what difference you have comparing versapro with some alcohol vehicle?


 No,the molecule is very small.

----------


## pagedo

> No,the molecule is very small.


 Hell are you still waiting on VersaPro?

----------


## FearTheLoss

so is anyone actually doing this?

----------


## pagedo

> I bought this vehicle, but I don't see how it works. CB isn't soluble in it, even when vehicle is heated to melting. If anyone tries this, dissolve the vehicle in PG first. I didn't try this, but I'm not wasting any more CB in this. I don't know why there are so many people who are interested in CB but no one tried the vehicle from the patent which works just fine. Looking forward to trying the liquid vehicle from PHG


 Where is your CB from?

----------


## inbrugge

so this escalated and died out pretty quickly...i think we really need desmond to drop in with more info regarding the dosage, possible implications for other treatments (ru, topical fin, s5, etc), and answer some of the questions asked by other members.

----------


## buck

There has been a lot of back and forth on this thread about whether the vehicle is the problem or not, which is pretty much news to me.

After years of minoxidil alone (and some ramatroban, which gave me a little bit of thickness back), I am considering starting an anti-androgen, as I discussed here: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17886

Now, I also have a bottle of CB from Iron Dragon, unopened and just waiting to help me create bushy undergrowth all over my scalp. http://www.iron-dragon.com/product_i...roducts_id=238

Does anyone have any opinions if this experiment would be worth the time and energy?

----------


## NeedHairASAP

Where can we buy vesapro? I want to use it as a base for S-Equol

I'm in the US

----------


## mlouis

> Where can we buy vesapro? I want to use it as a base for S-Equol
> 
> I'm in the US


 Love the idea. Keep us posted.

----------


## NeedHairASAP

> http://www.drugsdepot.com/catalog.ph...o_Cream_Base__
> 
> appears you can purchase from here


 is this base considered a prescription drug? Why is it not available at normal venues like amazon?

I was about to order off of that site but it seems to be for pharmacies to order.

----------


## yan

By the way: 

In the trial, they apply 5% CB twice daily.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...b+03+01&rank=2

----------


## Justinian

> By the way: 
> 
> In the trial, they apply 5% CB twice daily.
> 
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...b+03+01&rank=2


 Good find!

I thought this trial had started already but it looks like it's starting to recruit now, and won't be done till the end of 2015.

This clears up a lot, since we know they are using 5% twice a day. I don't think many people have tried 5% or used it twice a day. This would be really expensive at current CB prices.

----------


## burtandernie

Yeah my hope is that CB will have minimal sides and get over the counter approval so it can sell in volume like minox. That will drive the price the down a lot. It will be expensive if its prescription only and is not sold in bulk.

----------


## LMS

How many MG a day is 5% 2x a day thats what I'd like to know.

I assume its atleast 1ML per application so atleast 100MG of CB0301 per day.

----------


## Justinian

> How many MG a day is 5% 2x a day thats what I'd like to know.
> 
> I assume its atleast 1ML per application so atleast 100MG of CB0301 per day.


 I think that's correct. At current prices from Kane, that's ~$600 a month. I wonder if CB is just plain expensive to make, or if that price could drop a lot if they increased their output (i.e. a lot of people started buying CB).

----------


## Boldy

> I think that's correct. At current prices from Kane, that's ~$600 a month. I wonder if CB is just plain expensive to make, or if that price could drop a lot if they increased their output (i.e. a lot of people started buying CB).


 prices can be lower, we had saga gb with kane and other suppliers in the past and the price was about 140. still not cheap if you need 100mg a day...(2*5% a day) which can be about 3*140 + 50 shipping = 470 usd a month, or about 5600 a year.

CB is harder to produce than Ru, so the gray market prices will never reach the same.. 

After cosmo released the clinical trial approach, it is now at-least clear for everyone that not the vehicle was the problem, but the DOSE and frequency. 

This confirms a bit the organ flank test of Cb vs cyproterone  and Ru vs cyproterone. Ru was little more potent than cyproterone, while cb is little less potent than cyproterone.

this can explain why the 1% once a day never did anything for the majority.

*They speak again here about a "solution", not a creme or oitment.
*

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...b+03+01&rank=2




> A Phase 2, Multicenter, Randomized, Double-Blind, Controlled Study to Evaluate the Safety and Efficacy of Cortexolone 17α-Propionate (CB-03-01)* Solution* 5%, Minoxidil Solution 5%, and *Vehicle Solution*, Applied Twice-daily for 26 Weeks in Males With Androgenetic Alopecia (AGA)


 perhaps an ethanol solution like minoxidil, which is a fine carrier to penetrate into the dp compartment.

along with the sideffect profile that is reported on private forums with 1%, im not sure if this stuff is the ideal candidate for aga at this moment.

----------


## inbrugge

So why did everyone think for years that it was a vehicle problem and that the molecule size was too large to penetrate the scalp layer and that's why they were using iontophoresis?

5% is now a significant dose and that increases the chance of side effects. Let's see now how legitimate the claims about CB being harmlessly processed by the body if in any cases it went systematic. That always sounded too good to be true.

----------


## Justinian

> This confirms a bit the organ flank test of Cb vs cyproterone  and Ru vs cyproterone. Ru was little more potent than cyproterone, while cb is little less potent than cyproterone.


 http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx
Granted this uses the iontrophesis delivery, but here CB 1% and 5% produce more hair than cyproterone. This could be because of a small sample size, though.




> along with the sideffect profile that is reported on private forums with 1%, im not sure if this stuff is the ideal candidate for aga at this moment.


 


> So why did everyone think for years that it was a vehicle problem and that the molecule size was too large to penetrate the scalp layer and that's why they were using iontophoresis?
> 
> 5% is now a significant dose and that increases the chance of side effects. Let's see now how legitimate the claims about CB being harmlessly processed by the body if in any cases it went systematic. That always sounded too good to be true.


 In the above study 1% and 5% were the same, but again could be sample size.

I think if there were serious side effects that Cosmo would know about it after completing 3 trials, and would discontinue the future trials if they thought it might be an issue.

EDIT: To add to that last statement, it's because fin is already on the market. If they have something that is similar in efficacy, or only slightly better, and also gives side effects, then they won't make any money on it.

----------


## rdawg

Get in on that trial american friends, it's recruiting in 3 states in the US! save yourself the 2000 that youd need to take it twice a day at 5%.

----------


## charlie76761

V interesting re the 3 states - hopefully someone on one of the forums will be involved and can shortly inform of the missing piece of the puzzle, the vehicle.  Do pls shout if so....

I'm very tempted to chuck in daily CB 50mg x 1 dose daily into my regime which is neogenic with 20mg RU and 0.2mg fin oral (am v sensitive to sides after being in Dut and fin 2002 to 2012... 0.2 is tolerable at present and should sponge up 60% of scalp DHT serum.. or is apparently 80% effective as 1mg based on hair count via Merc study as well as Doc Kaufman's ). Also v interested in SM04554 and will drop Kane a note.. but that's for a different thread  :Smile: 

I used CB form 3 back in 2013 for 4 or so mths but didnt get any results, not even stabilization although i did add DMSO towards the end and think this had negative effect

Keep strong lads, find something that can maintain you for a year or two as hopefully Replicel and/or Histogen should then arrive...

----------


## rdawg

Guys the Minnesota clinic responded to me very fast about the trial unfortunately due to bring far away(im in Toronto) and being on fin I'm not qualified :Frown:  but I really reccomend you guys contact one of the clinics and join!!!!

----------


## inbrugge

Where are the other clinics located?

----------


## charlie76761

> Where are the other clinics located?


 

Here the Locations:

United States, California
Therapeutics Clinical Research	Recruiting
San Diego, California, United States, 92123
Contact: Sandra Adsit, MD    858-571-6800      
Principal Investigator: Sandra Adsit, MD         

United States, Minnesota
Minnesota Clinical Study Center	Recruiting
Fridley, Minnesota, United States, 55432
Contact: Steven Kempers, MD    763-571-4200      
Principal Investigator: Steven Kempers, MD         

United States, Texas
DermResearch, Inc.	Recruiting
Austin, Texas, United States, 78759
Contact: Janet DuBois, MD    512-349-9989      
Principal Investigator: Janet DuBois, MD         

More info around eligibility / inclusion criteria is here https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...b+03+01&rank=2

----------


## Shinobi

> http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx
> Granted this uses the iontrophesis delivery, but here *CB 1% and 5% produce more hair than cyproterone*. This could be because of a small sample size, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the above study 1% and 5% were the same, but again could be sample size.
> 
> ...


 Yes, there is always much more involved than the androgen blocker effect. It can also block some others receptor. All is statistic % related, and only a vivo human study on specific condition can give you the final answer. All the rest is just pure speculation. For now CB is tested that way, so lets wait for result (or not)

----------


## Gjm127

Hey guys, I called the first contact about the enrolment, the person was very nice with me and took the time to answer some of my questions. She did say they are in Phase 2 and it's a topical. She told me I could take an appointment and come in in order for them to check if I fit the criteria and it's really as simple as that. 

She said they're currently doing phase 2, so some people have already started applying the topical and coming into the clinic once a month for check-ups.

VERY INTERESTING NEWS: She also said that if I wait another month, I could hop on another clinical trial for hair loss that's also in phase 2 and is also a topical solution. When I asked if it's SM, she said she didn't know the specifics yet.

She did say the hype is getting greater with time for hair loss products to come out and that it's more and more popular these days for people to come in.

----------


## Tenma

> VERY INTERESTING NEWS: She also said that if I wait another month, I could hop on another clinical trial for hair loss that's also in phase 2 and is also a topical solution. When I asked if it's SM, she said she didn't know the specifics yet.
> 
> She did say the hype is getting greater with time for hair loss products to come out and that it's more and more popular these days for people to come in.


 Pretty cool man. If i were you i would wait another month for sm (very likely  the other topical they're talking about).

We already know the limits of antiandrogen therapy in terms of regrowth.

----------


## Gjm127

I hope so, it would make sense! Waaw great combo! One to halt and one to regrow, that would be a dream come true!
Great stuff on the way guys, let's just hope these products see the market soon.

PS: she also said that the CB trial takes 6 months. So the patients would come for check-ups 6 times.

----------


## rdawg

> I hope so, it would make sense! Waaw great combo! One to halt and one to regrow, that would be a dream come true!
> Great stuff on the way guys, let's just hope these products see the market soon.
> 
> PS: she also said that the CB trial takes 6 months. So the patients would come for check-ups 6 times.


 Good luck with the trial I hope you get in and give us some updates if possible! 

I would hope someone with aggressive MPB goes into this trial guys, then we'll really know if this stuff works and not just on the 30+ slow MPB guys that FIN usually works for. 

CB is very intriguing and it sounds like this is taking the fast-track to approval, they probably wont need a phase IIb like say histogen or BIM, rather just stick with the 5% solution and go straight to phase III next year!
Plus DUT is about to be officially approved, so products are coming out haha!

----------


## Gjm127

yeah I doubt I'll make it to these trials, they're not held anywhere near where I live.. I just called to get info and relief on the legitimacy of these trials. It seems to me it's pretty straight forward ans that makes me happy.

DUT is being approved soon? By the FDA? Trials? I'm a DUT noob, is it any good? What's the mechanism? I see that it resembles Finasteride.. What's the benefit compared to it? Is it going to be approved in topical form? Because if not, Avodart is already on the market... I don't get it, please fill me in.

----------


## rdawg

> yeah I doubt I'll make it to these trials, they're not held anywhere near where I live.. I just called to get info and relief on the legitimacy of these trials. It seems to me it's pretty straight forward ans that makes me happy.
> 
> DUT is being approved soon? Source? By the FDA? Trials? I'm a DUT noob, is it any good? What's the mechanism?


 http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01831791

{hase 3 Trial was completed and verified a few weeks ago(trial was finished back in august) they results a separate trials results in which 1 out of 60 trial participants lost further hair, the rests maintained and 70% had a least minor regrowth.

it's a stronger version of FIN and I highly recommend seeing how you react to fin first, for me FIN did nothing but slow the loss with no side effects, but for others, DUT will give you much worse side effects so ease into these drugs.

The thing is, it's clear CB should be approved fairly quickly as well, so I may only have to get on DUT for a year or two, but I still cant get the damn drug in canada and I've looked everywhere! how do you people get it!?

----------


## Gjm127

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01831791
> 
> {hase 3 Trial was completed and verified a few weeks ago(trial was finished back in august) they results a separate trials results in which 1 out of 60 trial participants lost further hair, the rests maintained and 70% had a least minor regrowth.
> 
> it's a stronger version of FIN and I highly recommend seeing how you react to fin first, for me FIN did nothing but slow the loss with no side effects, but for others, DUT will give you much worse side effects so ease into these drugs.
> 
> The thing is, it's clear CB should be approved fairly quickly as well, so I may only have to get on DUT for a year or two, but I still cant get the damn drug in canada and I've looked everywhere! how do you people get it!?


 So basically the benefit is only that it's stronger than FIN but with possibly more side effects. Orally I presume? I also presume a topical solution has been tried and failed...? How is it different than Avodart then?

----------


## rdawg

> So basically the benefit is only that it's stronger than FIN but with possibly more side effects. Orally I presume? I also presume a topical solution has been tried and failed...? How is it different than Avodart then?


 Dutasteride is Avodart, its just that it is now getting officially approved, its nothing new, just that its the first drug in 17 years to be approved by the FDA!

----------


## deuce

What is the ETA for CB?

----------


## rdawg

> What is the ETA for CB?


 November 2015 is the end of Phase II, if the results are strong, which is expected with the 5% solution twice a day as Phase I results were very strong albeit with the charged machine thingy haha(cant remember the name), Phase III will begin very soon after, roughly 4-6 months i'd assume.

so realistically it will be out very late 2016- early 2017

----------


## Gjm127

I'm just hoping that the acne product is being released with the same vehicle and percentage as the one that's being trialed for AA. If it's not, it's still the same molecule, so it can't be dangerous.

In that case, since it's considered safe, I'll just apply it on my scalp. The acne product is about a year ahead of the AA product so it should be out Late 2015ish? 

Who can we ask to get the real answer for the acne product? It's entering phase 3, marketing should get kicked-off half way through...

----------


## NeedHairASAP

did anybody get their vesapro from desmond?

----------


## Justinian

> I'm just hoping that the acne product is being released with the same vehicle and percentage as the one that's being trialed for AA. If it's not, it's still the same molecule, so it can't be dangerous.
> 
> In that case, since it's considered safe, I'll just apply it on my scalp. The acne product is about a year ahead of the AA product so it should be out Late 2015ish? 
> 
> Who can we ask to get the real answer for the acne product? It's entering phase 3, marketing should get kicked-off half way through...


 I'm not sure about if it's the same vehicle, but I believe the acne one is 1% while the hair one is 5%. We won't know if it works (likely with less results than the hair solution) until we try it. Maybe it could be applied 3-4 times a day and work fine.

----------


## hellouser

> November 2015 is the end of Phase II, if the results are strong, which is expected with the 5% solution twice a day as Phase I results were very strong albeit with the charged machine thingy haha(cant remember the name), Phase III will begin very soon after, roughly 4-6 months i'd assume.
> 
> so realistically it will be out very late 2016- early 2017


 FDA also takes its sweet time giving the green light on any new drug. For some reason they take ages in reviewing the product. IMO, 2016 is optimistic. 2017 is probably the absolute earliest.

----------


## Swooping

Chuckling here.. As expected obviously there was never a vehicle problem, but the concentration was. Sad that most of the baldies are so hopeful that they neglect the facts. Anyway 2 x 50mg a day is even more than I expected and kinda  confirms the fact that RU58841 is stronger pound for pound than CB-03-01 together with the studies that are out. 

2 x a day by the way is extremely stupid in my opinion btw. We are talking about convenience here. To be honest I don't see CB-03-01 for AGA going to hit the market now, mark my words lol. It's just a financial game played now.

Reason? They are way to late. If CB-03-01 were to be released realistically let's say in 2017-2018 they would only have MAX. a couple of years of revenue. Heck I would even say less than 5 years of revenue. Simply because over 10 years we'll definitely have more exciting things. It will be way outdated by then, and frankly it already is because we already have FIN/DUT/RU. NEXT.

----------


## Kudu

> Chuckling here.. As expected obviously there was never a vehicle problem, but the concentration was. Sad that most of the baldies are so hopeful that they neglect the facts. Anyway 2 x 50mg a day is even more than I expected and kinda  confirms the fact that RU58841 is stronger pound for pound than CB-03-01 together with the studies that are out. 
> 
> 2 x a day by the way is extremely stupid in my opinion btw. We are talking about convenience here. To be honest I don't see CB-03-01 for AGA going to hit the market now, mark my words lol. It's just a financial game played now.
> 
> Reason? They are way to late. If CB-03-01 were to be released realistically let's say in 2017-2018 they would only have MAX. a couple of years of revenue. Heck I would even say less than 5 years of revenue. Simply because over 10 years we'll definitely have more exciting things. It will be way outdated by then, and frankly it already is because we already have FIN/DUT/RU. NEXT.


 Fair enough, I still hate that you're right though. However, it will still be useful in my case, an AA that has minimal side effects for a 17 year old is still beneficial. I agree that we may not release it now. We may have better treatment within a couple of years, I think that we are between having few options and having many options. I'm just worried that I will lose my hair and effective treatments will be no use for me in the coming years.

----------


## Gjm127

I haven't tried any treatment myself, I'm just on Resveratrol and Green Tea extracts once daily.

My hair loss started when I was 19 in the temple region up until I was 22 and then I started losing in density in the frontal region. As of today, I'm 23 and my temportal region has started to recede again as density continues to decrease in the front and temple regions. 

I seem to have the same pattern loss as my mother's side, they just have extremely receded temples until their mid 30's and then their frontal regions lost between 35 and 45.

I'm an extreme hypocondriac so I'm scared of using FIN. My dad was on minoxidil all his life from his 30s, seemed to help a bit but he had huge dark circles and bag requiring him to do surgery afterwards so I don't want to hop on minox.

What do I do? Do I have hope for this? or SM? I don't know how long I have left to keep my hair that's still manageable till now, feeling like this time is almost ending.

----------


## rdawg

> Chuckling here.. As expected obviously there was never a vehicle problem, but the concentration was. Sad that most of the baldies are so hopeful that they neglect the facts. Anyway 2 x 50mg a day is even more than I expected and kinda  confirms the fact that RU58841 is stronger pound for pound than CB-03-01 together with the studies that are out. 
> 
> 2 x a day by the way is extremely stupid in my opinion btw. We are talking about convenience here. To be honest I don't see CB-03-01 for AGA going to hit the market now, mark my words lol. It's just a financial game played now.
> 
> Reason? They are way to late. If CB-03-01 were to be released realistically let's say in 2017-2018 they would only have MAX. a couple of years of revenue. Heck I would even say less than 5 years of revenue. Simply because over 10 years we'll definitely have more exciting things. It will be way outdated by then, and frankly it already is because we already have FIN/DUT/RU. NEXT.


 Minoxidil is used twice a day, i dont know how it's inconvienent to use a drug much more powerful than DUT/FIN without the side effects? takes you all of 5 minutes to use this stuff.

RU has side effects and is more complicated to use in the greymarket.

CB will become the new FIN and if it can be sold over the counter like Rogaine then it will be huge. and i've never seen a company not release great product because another product 'might' come out within a few years after, that's nonsense. Look how fast they are trying to get the acne version released and look how much competition there is in that market!

Sure a better cure might come out in 5-10 years, but its a ways away. Maintanence is key right now and is a possibility TODAY with stuff like CB.

----------


## Gjm127

> Minoxidil is used twice a day, i dont know how it's inconvienent to use a drug much more powerful than DUT/FIN without the side effects? takes you all of 5 minutes to use this stuff.
> 
> RU has side effects and is more complicated to use in the greymarket.
> 
> CB will become the new FIN and if it can be sold over the counter like Rogaine then it will be huge. and i've never seen a company not release great product because another product 'might' come out within a few years after, that's nonsense. Look how fast they are trying to get the acne version released and look how much competition there is in that market!
> 
> Sure a better cure might come out in 5-10 years, but its a ways away. Maintanence is key right now and is a possibility TODAY with stuff like CB.


 well said, I doubt Cosmo is looking at Histogen and Replicel and saying, oh well, they got it, let's let it go... It's going to be a huge market just like acne and competition will be key. Acne market has hundreds of approved products, some working better than others like Accutane, etc... But you still have other products on the market, and others pending approval...

----------


## Swooping

> Minoxidil is used twice a day, i dont know how it's inconvienent to use a drug much more powerful than DUT/FIN without the side effects? takes you all of 5 minutes to use this stuff.
> 
> RU has side effects and is more complicated to use in the greymarket.
> 
> CB will become the new FIN and if it can be sold over the counter like Rogaine then it will be huge. and i've never seen a company not release great product because another product 'might' come out within a few years after, that's nonsense. Look how fast they are trying to get the acne version released and look how much competition there is in that market!
> 
> Sure a better cure might come out in 5-10 years, but its a ways away. Maintanence is key right now and is a possibility TODAY with stuff like CB.


 First of all it's not even much more powerful than finasteride who told you that? Not even to speak of dutasteride, as that almost peaks the ceiling together with RU for example. Only castration would be better or having a super-antagonist, but CB is far from being that. So forget about CB doing a better job in terms of efficiency than the current treatments we have now. Meaning the only unique selling point of CB-03-01 would be that it is supposedly devoid of side-effects. You already believe it is actually devoid of side effects. Based on what actually? 

Maintenance is already possible today with the current treatments we have, and CB isn't going to do a better job at it, it's the cold truth. Heck I'll tell you now that DUT and RU will outperform CB-03-01. RU surely is a stronger compound. The % of people with side effects with current treatments is small anyway, and while YOU might care because you are in this position. These companies don't give a damn, they only care about ROI. 

Cosmo played a nice sugarcoating game with their phase 1 concept of trial too btw. Make a concept proof of trial with 1x a week CB administration, publish huge results but opt for 2x a day application of a 5% formulation in the 2nd phase LOL. Yeah,  mark my words. This one isn't going to pull through  :Smile: . They are 10 years to late. Lovely financial games too.

----------


## Tenma

> Maintenance is already possible today with the current treatments we have, and CB isn't going to do a better job at it, it's the cold truth. Heck I'll tell you now that DUT and RU will outperform CB-03-01. RU surely is a stronger compound. The % of people with side effects with current treatments is small anyway, and while YOU might care because you are in this position. These companies don't give a damn, they only care about ROI. 
> 
> Cosmo played a nice sugarcoating game with their phase 1 concept of trial too btw. Make a concept proof of trial with 1x a week CB administration, publish huge results but opt for 2x a day application of a 5% formulation in the 2nd phase LOL. Yeah,  mark my words. This one isn't going to pull through . They are 10 years to late. Lovely financial games too.


 All you said is true but remember RU isnt widely available for everyone. Here in Argentina we cant buy "research chemicals" so easily and is my understanding most countries in Latinoamerica are in the same situation. 

The advantage Cosmo Pharmaceuticals has over whichever was developing RU is the extension of the patent. They have exclusive rights on CB till 2030

----------


## burtandernie

How do we really know what CB does or how powerful it is from that preliminary phase 1 study? I mean the 2x 5% might give results that are a lot different. I mean I dont know how anyone knows from such a small amount of data how well it works or how powerful it is in relation to say propecia.
They got good results in that study with the 1 percent in relation to the ciproterone-acetate or 1% 17alpha-estradiol. So who really knows how it does at 5 percent applied more frequently. They are also switching vehicles which will probably weaken it but they can play around with that and see if they can get it to work better. Way too early to say IMO. To me this is still the nearest and most promising thing even if its another AA so its not going to cure MPB Or anything

----------


## lilpauly

> How do we really know what CB does or how powerful it is from that preliminary phase 1 study? I mean the 2x 5% might give results that are a lot different. I mean I dont know how anyone knows from such a small amount of data how well it works or how powerful it is in relation to say propecia.


 ^ this .they are using 2x5 % for a reason.

----------


## FearTheLoss

> First of all it's not even much more powerful than finasteride who told you that? Not even to speak of dutasteride, as that almost peaks the ceiling together with RU for example. Only castration would be better or having a super-antagonist, but CB is far from being that. So forget about CB doing a better job in terms of efficiency than the current treatments we have now. Meaning the only unique selling point of CB-03-01 would be that it is supposedly devoid of side-effects. You already believe it is actually devoid of side effects. Based on what actually? 
> 
> Maintenance is already possible today with the current treatments we have, and CB isn't going to do a better job at it, it's the cold truth. Heck I'll tell you now that DUT and RU will outperform CB-03-01. RU surely is a stronger compound. The % of people with side effects with current treatments is small anyway, and while YOU might care because you are in this position. These companies don't give a damn, they only care about ROI. 
> 
> Cosmo played a nice sugarcoating game with their phase 1 concept of trial too btw. Make a concept proof of trial with 1x a week CB administration, publish huge results but opt for 2x a day application of a 5% formulation in the 2nd phase LOL. Yeah,  mark my words. This one isn't going to pull through . They are 10 years to late. Lovely financial games too.


 
You're assumptions are laughable. Phase II is just starting and you have no idea how the difference in dosing is going to play out. Furthermore, CB has other properties, i.e. anti-inflammatory, that make it a very promising compound.

----------


## hellouser

> First of all it's not even much more powerful than finasteride who told you that? Not even to speak of dutasteride, as that almost peaks the ceiling together with RU for example. Only castration would be better or having a super-antagonist, but CB is far from being that. So forget about CB doing a better job in terms of efficiency than the current treatments we have now. Meaning the only unique selling point of CB-03-01 would be that it is supposedly devoid of side-effects. You already believe it is actually devoid of side effects. Based on what actually? 
> 
> Maintenance is already possible today with the current treatments we have, and CB isn't going to do a better job at it, it's the cold truth. Heck I'll tell you now that DUT and RU will outperform CB-03-01. RU surely is a stronger compound. The % of people with side effects with current treatments is small anyway, and while YOU might care because you are in this position. These companies don't give a damn, they only care about ROI. 
> 
> Cosmo played a nice sugarcoating game with their phase 1 concept of trial too btw. Make a concept proof of trial with 1x a week CB administration, publish huge results but opt for 2x a day application of a 5% formulation in the 2nd phase LOL. Yeah,  mark my words. This one isn't going to pull through .* They are 10 years to late. Lovely financial games too.*


 More than that actually. Hair loss treatments and research is a mockery of the disease itself.

----------


## Swooping

> You're assumptions are laughable. Phase II is just starting and you have no idea how the difference in dosing is going to play out. Furthermore, CB has other properties, i.e. anti-inflammatory, that make it a very promising compound.


 I already explained CB-03-01 is slightly less active than cyproterone acetate a few pages back. This is from their own study. Meaning that 100mg of cyproterone acetate will likely do the same job as CB-03-01 or probably slightly better. And we have stronger anti-androgens around than cyproterone acetate. So yes, it's not going to be anything more effective as much as you would like it to be. If you still want it to believe in it being as magical unicorn anti-androgen, that's fine. Sorry for being the boo man and providing you reality here. I'll tell you a little secret too; every anti-androgen or 5ar2 inhibitor will have anti-inflammatory properties at the hair follicle in AGA. This is extremely logical, because androgens cause inflammatory response in AGA for instance by modulating the interleukin family. So inhibiting DHT or antagonizing the androgen receptor will always lead to an anti-inflammatory response on the hair follicle. But you believed it was unique for cb-03-01 right, because cosmo shouted that?

For the small group which have side effects with the current treatments CB may be interesting yes, but for the people who are already on DUT, FIN, RU etc. and don't suffer from side effects CB won't be anything interesting. The majority doesn't suffer from side effects anyway let's be honest. I understand people with side effects though. But I seriously wouldn't count too much on CB being ever released and if it will be it won't be short term. Extremely many drugs don't pull through phase 2 and phase 3. Also keep in mind that the lack of side effects with CB-03-01 is still not proven and very optimistic. Good news is that with the rapid drug screening models, cell culture and such, advancement is going faster than ever  :Smile: .

----------


## inbrugge

I think, on the contrary, majority of people do suffer side effects on current treatments. I believe the percentage of people who get no side effects are very small. Most probably do get side effects in varying amounts, so for some it is tolerable and others it is too much and they have to quit. 

You have to admit even scientifically it doesn't make much sense that one wouldn't get any side effect from DHT inhibition. At least CB has a scientific theory behind why it should be side effect free. I'm also somewhat skeptical about that claim as it sounds too good to be true, however, we will see what the outcome is.

If CB can provide what Fin and Ru promise without the side effects then it's already a great alternative. If that's the case, then I'm sure huge amounts will either switch to CB or incorporate into their regimen. 

Can anyone convince us why CB is supposed to be side effect free and why we should accept this claim? If I'm convinced I might apply for the clinical trial as I'm in Texas. Can we really trust that the active chemical is converted to a harmless chemical once it enters the blood stream? What are the findings from the earlier trials and can we trust them? I mean how did Fin get released even though it has such prominent and severe side effects? Maybe those clinical trials also reputed no noticeable side effects.

----------


## Boldy

> I think, on the contrary, majority of people do suffer side effects on current treatments. I believe the percentage of people who get no side effects are very small. Most probably do get side effects in varying amounts, so for some it is tolerable and others it is too much and they have to quit. 
> 
> You have to admit even scientifically it doesn't make much sense that one wouldn't get any side effect from DHT inhibition. At least CB has a scientific theory behind why it should be side effect free. I'm also somewhat skeptical about that claim as it sounds too good to be true, however, we will see what the outcome is.
> 
> If CB can provide what Fin and Ru promise without the side effects then it's already a great alternative. If that's the case, then I'm sure huge amounts will either switch to CB or incorporate into their regimen. 
> 
> Can anyone convince us why CB is supposed to be side effect free and why we should accept this claim? If I'm convinced I might apply for the clinical trial as I'm in Texas. Can we really trust that the active chemical is converted to a harmless chemical once it enters the blood stream? What are the findings from the earlier trials and can we trust them? I mean how did Fin get released even though it has such prominent and severe side effects? Maybe those clinical trials also reputed no noticeable side effects.


 this is not the reality on private forums where more people open a log. it is the majority who don't have a good satisfying effect from the current treatments and seek for other options such as HT. small percentage is getting (or better to say recognizing the sides). these people who had sides with fina and ru, reported sides with CB too! if you are sensitive, your body is either braking down the chemicals less fast as it is suposed too, or you are hypochondriac. only 2 options. for the first option there are some workarounds to  play on the enzymes or abc family to brake down xenobiotics (foreign substances)  faster and more efficiently which results in less sides. Im studying this topic currently.

----------


## lupero83

someone knows that% are used in acne trial?


Experimental: Low-dose active, BID
low dose of CB-03-01, applied twice a day Drug: CB-03-01

Topical cream, applied twice a day
Experimental: Medium-dose active, BID
medium dose of CB-03-01, applied twice a dayDrug: CB-03-01

Topical cream, applied twice a day
Experimental: High-dose active, QD
high dose of CB-03-01, applied once a day
Drug: CB-03-01
Topical cream, applied once a day
Experimental: High-dose active, BID
high dose of CB-03-01, applied twice a day
Drug: CB-03-01

Topical cream, applied twice a day
Placebo Comparator: Vehicle, QD or BID
vehicle cream, applied once or twice a day

----------


## lilpauly

for acne i believe they are using 1%

----------


## lupero83

What Is The Difference Between low dose, medium dose and high dose in the clinical trial for acne?
thanks

----------


## pagedo

Well I just wasted $400. God this is disappointing.

I just want to confirm - as did a previous poster - with everyone here that Versapro is not dissolving the CB powder. The active ingredient was sourced from Kane, and the Versapro cream base was purchased at a local apothecary. I used the compounding method with two spatulas and a slab. Kept at it for about 30 min and I could notice small and large clumps of the powder. I added about 1ml of ethanol in to see if it would help the mixture dissolve the CB but I could still see and feel powder in between my finger tips when I scooped it up. I tried to make a 5% solution with about 20g of Versapro.

I'll leave it overnight to see if it needs more time.

----------


## lilpauly

Yes man lothar used and it will not work !!! The vehicle is shit ! Cb I repeat is not worth it

----------


## lilpauly

lothar: Versapro is another crappy vehicle. I bought it and tested it. Cb isn't soluble in it and it isn't soluble when heated to the vehicle's melting point. Maybe if you dissolve the CB in PG first but even then, the vehicle is irritating and caused shedding.

----------


## pagedo

The author should have cautioned us about the solubility of VersaPro before making such a grand thread.

----------


## lilpauly

cosmo is using 5% 2x day in a gel.

----------


## Thinn

I personally still really hope this comes out.  If there was a solid replacement for Finasteride without the side effects, I'd be thrilled, and I think a lot of guys (and women!) would be too.  Finasteride gave me terrible side effects which took months to go away after the last time I used it.  Thankfully I'm mostly back to normal but it was a very scary experience.  I flushed the rest of the pills down the toilet and I'm never touching it again.

On the other hand, if this stuff came out and was side effect free (at least on the endocrine system), and it was at least as effective as fin, I could get a HT, maintain what I've got and be back to a NW1 until I'm at least in my late 40s.  That would be good enough for me. (I'm 32 now, NW2-3).




> Minoxidil is used twice a day, i dont know how it's inconvienent to use a drug much more powerful than DUT/FIN without the side effects? takes you all of 5 minutes to use this stuff.
> 
> RU has side effects and is more complicated to use in the greymarket.
> 
> CB will become the new FIN and if it can be sold over the counter like Rogaine then it will be huge. and i've never seen a company not release great product because another product 'might' come out within a few years after, that's nonsense. Look how fast they are trying to get the acne version released and look how much competition there is in that market!
> 
> Sure a better cure might come out in 5-10 years, but its a ways away. Maintanence is key right now and is a possibility TODAY with stuff like CB.

----------


## Gjm127

You'd need the 5% CB and the right vehicle to really see its benefits from what I take away from this thread. Unless you have thousands to throw (for that %) and a full year (since it's an anti-androgen) of home testing for this product, you will never see its true benefits.

Better leave it at Cosmo to figure that out with their budget, they are after all, performing these clinical trials for that.

----------


## inbrugge

Ok, I can't remember if I asked priorly, but I might sign up for the Austin CB trial since I'm in Texas. So can any give me any information, from personal experience and the precious study, about the safety of CB, considering also the higher dosage and different vehicles they will be using.

Any one can give me some reassuring science about why this thing is supposed to be neutral when it enters the blood stream? Has that been verified?

Please, help here, because if I'm convinced, I will definitely keep a log and share my results on here as well.

Thank you.

----------


## burtandernie

I think the risk for CB is pretty low as far as drugs go. The cost is probably my main concern along with the strength of it. No reason not to sign up other than location and time your way better off getting in legit trials than using what exists now.

----------


## Justinian

> Ok, I can't remember if I asked priorly, but I might sign up for the Austin CB trial since I'm in Texas. So can any give me any information, from personal experience and the precious study, about the safety of CB, considering also the higher dosage and different vehicles they will be using.
> 
> Any one can give me some reassuring science about why this thing is supposed to be neutral when it enters the blood stream? Has that been verified?
> 
> Please, help here, because if I'm convinced, I will definitely keep a log and share my results on here as well.
> 
> Thank you.


 I don't see why not to join it. If you do, definitely keep us updated and let us know what the vehicle is (if allowed).

This explains the safety of CB-03-01. http://www.drugs.com/clinical_trials...ders-5399.html

"CB-03-01’s mechanism of action is the competition with Testosterone and DHT at the human androgen-receptor level. CB-03-01 is devoid of systemic anti-androgenic activity, as far as it does not inhibit gonadotropins hypersecretion, and it possesses a
moderate anti-inflammatory activity. In preclinical studies, CB-03-01 was shown to be not mutagenic and rapidly metabolized to the parent cortexolone, a physiological substance lacking anti-androgen activity, by human plasma and skin. CB-03-01 has
also been shown to be well tolerated and devoid of toxicity when applied repeatedly."

----------


## kmit028

> I don't see why not to join it. If you do, definitely keep us updated and let us know what the vehicle is (if allowed).


 there is no reason to join as this is an acne trial, I dont think they ll let u get away with using it on your head, instead of your face lol

----------


## Justinian

> there is no reason to join as this is an acne trial, I dont think they ll let u get away with using it on your head, instead of your face lol


 Nope, this one is actually for hair. It just started and will last for 1 year.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...b+03+01&rank=2

----------


## kmit028

> Nope, this one is actually for hair. It just started and will last for 1 year.
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...b+03+01&rank=2


 Oh, well then go for it! 
And leak all their secrets back to us  :Smile:

----------


## charlie76761

Hi guys, what are your thoughts:

Cosmo 2010 Trials (apologies for re-posting)
  a)  1% CB applied 5 times over 4 weeks via iontophoresis
  b)  Above resulting in growth of new hairs of +54% in a 4 week period, and density also increasing from 0.41 to 0.88mm over 100% http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx


Questions:

 a) Altho' 1% dosage, not sure of volume of vehicle to allow calc on the mg of CB in 2010, but let's assume 5ml of vehicle (enough to cover head) and thus 50mg of CB per week in 2010 - what do we now think of having to use the new 7 days x 2 treatments a day x 50mg per application which would be x14 mgs of CB per week compared to 2010? 

Odd to think that CB delivery via this new vehicle would be so inefficient compared to Ion especially as many on here have stated that it's a relatively smaller compound and PG/Eth would work.  If we take Ion to be 100% effective at delivery, then i guess all we're saying is that you need less than 10% of new CB+vehicle to get into scalp... seems poor delivery as sure i've read that most topical vehicles are much higher

b) I find the results odd - doubling hair width and then also growing +50% in new hair numbers in just 4 weeks is ridiculously phenomenal - especially as CB is an AA... quite a few/majority on here saying the CB would only do similar to other AAs (RU) i.e. stop future loss but nothing for growth. I'm surprised that such results have taken so long to get to Phase II / 2015... youd think such 2010 results would speed thing ups considerably as massive game changer

Obviously totally blind to issues of the chemical and Cosmo itself, but do feel 2010 results dont quite feel right. Potential is massive according to the above, but not sure if i'd put my mortgage on them being actual (altho obviously praying they are)  


Anyway, more thinking out aloud - bring on the Phase II results (and hopefully having one of us partaking so we can see if 4 wks growth is actually possible...!)

----------


## Kudu

^Iontophoresis would majorly improve the results of almost any topical. The problem is, the topicals have to be modified so that they are charged, which also makes them unstable. Unless you become an experienced chemist and modify your own drugs, buy an ionto device, and actually know what you're doing, you are wasting your time. Minoxidil with ionto works great, but it's modified and by the time you ordered it and it reached you it would be useless.

----------


## lilpauly

u must be careful! sometimes pushing the compounds to far can reach the blood stream. thats why its not a good idea to demroll with minox in my eyes !

----------


## burtandernie

I think its way too early to say much of anything for the verdict on CB. You have to keep in mind they said it has moderate anti-inflammatory effect which you can interpret different ways whether that means its just from fighting off androgens at the follicle that helps fight inflammation or there could be much more to that. So I think the results could be much better or worse than anyone theorizes here because no one honestly has any idea.
I think from what cosmo said so far it works to some degree but we need more info to know exactly

----------


## Shinobi

> Hi guys, what are your thoughts:
> 
> Cosmo 2010 Trials (apologies for re-posting)
>   a)  1% CB applied 5 times over 4 weeks via iontophoresis
>   b)  Above resulting in growth of new hairs of +54% in a 4 week period, and density also increasing from 0.41 to 0.88mm over 100% http://www.cosmopharmaceuticals.com/...010-10-06.aspx
> 
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


  If the result are real its impressive. They should communicate on wich area they notice such result rather than make an average. Anti androgen seems to be innefficiant for the hairline while effective for vertex.




> u must be careful! sometimes pushing the compounds to far can reach the blood stream. thats why its not a good idea to demroll with minox in my eyes !


 You cant compare dermroll, wich makes holes and then open the blood vessels directly for exposure to certain chemical, to iontophoresis wich is a method totally non invasive and can distribute molecula via electric charges. Its not about "pushing the compounds too far" its more about reach blood vessel or not and about reach the depth where it can act or not (4mm for exemple for dp cells). This method shouldnt bring systemic more than others classic vehicle. Im wondering why not much company focus on that method now

----------


## Justinian

> If the result are real its impressive. They should communicate on wich area they notice such result rather than make an average. Anti androgen seems to be innefficiant for the hairline while effective for vertex.
> 
> 
> 
> You cant compare dermroll, wich makes holes and then open the blood vessels directly for exposure to certain chemical, to iontophoresis wich is a method totally non invasive and can distribute molecula via electric charges. Its not about "pushing the compounds too far" its more about reach blood vessel or not and about reach the depth where it can act or not (4mm for exemple for dp cells). This method shouldnt bring systemic more than others classic vehicle. Im wondering why not much company focus on that method now


 I think it comes down to ease of use. While most people on here would be willing to use the device if safe and effective, we don't represent the general population. Merck most likely stuck with an oral pill for finasteride (maybe part efficacy too) because they thought people would prefer s pill to applying a solution once or twice a day.

----------


## Shinobi

> I think it comes down to ease of use. While most people on here would be willing to use the device if safe and effective, we don't represent the general population. Merck most likely stuck with an oral pill for finasteride (maybe part efficacy too) because they thought people would prefer s pill to applying a solution once or twice a day.


 Yes you get a point about the ease of use. Most people want something very easy (some % variation represent at the end millions $), but im not sure a topical is more hard to make people use it than a pills, many people hate take pills and see it as a medicine with side effect, while a topical you think side free and "hair care". 

About the price I cant believe a company such as cosmo dont have a strategy to mass produce this chemical and make good return on investment.

----------


## ShookOnes

> ^Iontophoresis would majorly improve the results of almost any topical. The problem is, the topicals have to be modified so that they are charged, which also makes them unstable. Unless you become an experienced chemist and modify your own drugs, buy an ionto device, and actually know what you're doing, you are wasting your time. Minoxidil with ionto works great, but it's modified and by the time you ordered it and it reached you it would be useless.


 
do you think we'll be needing this device for cb when it comes out?

----------


## inbrugge

Kudu, do you have any ideas on who would be the best people to try to contact that could instruct use proper iont. use for cb, fin, etc. Spas, universities, pharmacies?

----------


## Kudu

> Kudu, do you have any ideas on who would be the best people to try to contact that could instruct use proper iont. use for cb, fin, etc. Spas, universities, pharmacies?


 There is plenty of articles, instructional videos, and forums that can help you learn how to use a device. The problem is using a device with the chems we need. No doctor or university will aid someone in using an experimental chemical with a device, and a spa wouldn't have a clue. The only way to get the proper formulas for CB would be to contact a supplier and have them create it.
If you had the cash for that then you would have to worry about stability, the proper gel, actually operating the machine correctly... It goes on and on. It would suck to invest that much money into something for it to not work. If you do have the resources for it then there would still be some trial and error before it could be done correctly to see results.

If everything went well, had the proper forms of things like bimatoprost or CB, and done right, you would probably see some serious results in a short time. Unfortunately, getting the proper form is a serious roadblock.

----------


## Kudu

> do you think we'll be needing this device for cb when it comes out?


 We shouldn't, they probably have a proper vehicle that we already know about for CB. It's just a concentration issue. I think iontophoresis is used as a sales gimmick. " Look at how phenomenal these results are with our new product! (with iontphoresis)" iontphoresis increases the efficacy of every topical. CB isn't going to be amazing other than side free, they just made it look like it with ionto.

----------


## blondetooth

Does anyone really think that topical CB31 is honestly more effective compared to topical .5 gel capsule Dutasteride on scalp?

----------


## hellouser

> We shouldn't, they probably have a proper vehicle that we already know about for CB. It's just a concentration issue. I think iontophoresis is used as a sales gimmick. " Look at how phenomenal these results are with our new product! (with iontphoresis)" iontphoresis increases the efficacy of every topical. CB isn't going to be amazing other than side free, they just made it look like it with ionto.


 Wouldn't they have to use topicals in trials to sell AS a topical? If they only used iontophoresis, then wouldnt that mean it'd only get approved used in the same manner?

----------


## lilpauly

> Wouldn't they have to use topicals in trials to sell AS a topical? If they only used iontophoresis, then wouldnt that mean it'd only get approved used in the same manner?


 well yes . why dont u check what they are using in the trials ! cb 5% applied 2x a day

----------


## lilpauly

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02279823

----------


## rdawg

interesting that it's only 6 months, this trial will be done by the summer, so surely we'll know then if the solution will work! 

but does this mean they will be able to go into phase III right after if they want to? or will they have to do a IIb?

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

Hard to say, but since IIb is efficacy and safety. It seems like it might not be necessary given that they know this solution is well tolerated, and we'll know it's efficacy after the POC trial.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

I have a lot of hopes riding on this drug, as I'm sure many others do. I'd much rather go with something I can slap on my head than shrink my prostate.

----------


## blondetooth

Thats what topical fin is for... or better yet, break a DUT liquid capsule open and rub on scalp. DUT is 100x more potent than fin in some areas of science...

----------


## blondetooth

Also there is no suck thing as side free, sides usually occur as a law of physics. Unless the scientists get lucky. 

But dont expect CB31 to be side free just because its a topical. In fact it needs to go systemic to work, just like a oral pill.

----------


## blondetooth

> http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02279823


 
What a waste of time, they are using CB31..... yes...... but Minoxidil too, how stupid are they.

----------


## hellouser

> Also there is no suck thing as side free, sides usually occur as a law of physics. Unless the scientists get lucky. 
> 
> But dont expect CB31 to be side free just because its a topical. *In fact it needs to go systemic to work, just like a oral pill.*


 FALSE.

Please respect the intelligence of the forum and don't post misinformation like that. CB-03-01 does NOT work by going system.

----------


## joachim

> What a waste of time, they are using CB31..... yes...... but Minoxidil too, how stupid are they.


 not true. minoxidil is mentioned as exclusion criteria.

----------


## stan

where is desmond?

----------


## ryan82

> where is desmond?


 counting cash with Versapro  :Smile:

----------


## Desmond84

Hi guys,

Apologies for being away for almost 2 months. Unfortunately, I lost a very dear friend of mine recently and it's been very hard to focus on normal daily things. It took some time to recover and move on with things. Hope everyone's well. Also, thanks to the guys sending me "thank you" messages over the last month. It was truly heart-warming and made all the effort I've been putting in well worth it. I also received lots of requests for Versapro and questions on how to mix it. I'll be replying to all your emails in the coming weeks. I promise  :Smile: 

So, let's get down to business. First of all, I just realised that people have been having trouble getting the powder to dissolve into the vehicle (Versapro). This was a possibility and by the sound of things, we may need to add a 'wetting agent' to CB-03-01 (Cortexolone) prior to mixing it with Versapro. Clobetasol which has very similar chemical properties to Cortexolone (CB) is always combined with a wetting agent prior to incorporation into a vehicle. 

I've ordered a batch of CB-03-01 from Kane and as soon as I receive it, I'll run some experiments to see what would be the most ideal wetting agent. This is a minor issue and we should be able to find a workable solution around it. 

For now, if you already have your Versapro and CB don't waste it. Hang on to them and store them in a cool dry place (fridge preferably) until we figure things out. Luckily, I never got around to sending out any Versapro. 

Other than the powder not mixing into the Vehicle has there been any other issues that I missed? Sorry this thread is now over 40 pages and reading everything will be very time consuming. 

Cheers guys, And I'll be checking in daily to help clarify any questions.

Desmond.

----------


## Desmond84

Also guys, some great news regarding future of CB-03-01.

As you may remember, the prescription medicines 'Yasmin' & 'Yaz' were taken off the market in Europe, and Bayer is facing several lawsuits across the world after it was found that this Anti-androgenic contraceptive pill used by many young women was the culprit for clotting in the periphery which had the potential to be dislodged and move along the artery and cause Heart attacks and strokes which took the lives of several young women. 

This led to a push to stop prescribing such pills to prevent acne and instead to use topical agents instead. Currently the most effective topicals for acne are antibiotic-based for the exception of one known as Epiduo which is made up of Adaptalene & Benzyl peroxide. 

Recently however, a major study found that this change in prescribing behaviour had led to serious bacterial resistance to all the antibiotics used topically which can have very serious consequences as we are rapidly running out of antibiotics to fight serious infections and there are hardly any new antibiotics entering the market. This has made the medical community extremely worried, which led to the letter we received from Galderma pharmaceuticals who are the largest manufacturers of acne products around the world. Here's the letter we received:



So, pretty much the market is open for CB-03-01 to dominate and make some serious cash. The only competition remaining is Epiduo and its patent is running out in less than 5 years, so expect a major pharmaceutical company to buy the licence to Cb very soon. 

Hope this puts a little smile on your faces as we're waiting for a new solution to hairloss  :Wink:

----------


## joachim

> Hi guys,
> 
> Apologies for being away for almost 2 months. Unfortunately, I lost a very dear friend of mine recently and it's been very hard to focus on normal daily things. It took some time to recover and move on with things. Hope everyone's well. Also, thanks to the guys sending me "thank you" messages over the last month. It was truly heart-warming and made all the effort I've been putting in well worth it. I also received lots of requests for Versapro and questions on how to mix it. I'll be replying to all your emails in the coming weeks. I promise 
> 
> So, let's get down to business. First of all, I just realised that people have been having trouble getting the powder to dissolve into the vehicle (Versapro). This was a possibility and by the sound of things, we may need to add a 'wetting agent' to CB-03-01 (Cortexolone) prior to mixing it with Versapro. Clobetasol which has very similar chemical properties to Cortexolone (CB) is always combined with a wetting agent prior to incorporation into a vehicle. 
> 
> I've ordered a batch of CB-03-01 from Kane and as soon as I receive it, I'll run some experiments to see what would be the most ideal wetting agent. This is a minor issue and we should be able to find a workable solution around it. 
> 
> For now, if you already have your Versapro and CB don't waste it. Hang on to them and store them in a cool dry place (fridge preferably) until we figure things out. Luckily, I never got around to sending out any Versapro. 
> ...


 hi desmond,

thanks for your efforts, but the major problem which turned out of the discussion was that CB isn't that effective as assumed. there's been a big hype around CB but some users think, at least at low concentrations, is not useful at all. and if you want to mix higher concentrations, it gets unaffordable. seems like CB isn't really interesting anymore, and people went back to RU instead.
although time consuming, you should read through all the pages of that thread to get an idea of some users' opinions.

----------


## lilpauly

Well cosmo using 5% twice a day speak volumes , every1 must forget about cb for until cosmo releases its findings in summer ,

----------


## Hairismylife

If CB doesnt outperform Ru, then why bother

----------


## FearTheLoss

Potential for no sexual sides.

----------


## rambo007

> Well cosmo using 5% twice a day speak volumes , every1 must forget about cb for until cosmo releases its findings in summer ,


 How do you know results will by out in summer? Is there any information from Cosmo?

----------


## lilpauly

> How do you know results will by out in summer? Is there any information from Cosmo?


 Yes brother it's in the trials , results conclude in the summer , it will be availble to asian market first , then europe, finally usa ! The fda requires it to go through 3 phases . Fda are tough

----------


## rambo007

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...b-03-01&rank=2

It claims that the outcome will be in November 2015. However I couldn't find information about the earlier release in Asia.

----------


## Illusion

> Hi guys,
> 
> Apologies for being away for almost 2 months. Unfortunately, I lost a very dear friend of mine recently and it's been very hard to focus on normal daily things. It took some time to recover and move on with things. Hope everyone's well. Also, thanks to the guys sending me "thank you" messages over the last month. It was truly heart-warming and made all the effort I've been putting in well worth it. I also received lots of requests for Versapro and questions on how to mix it. I'll be replying to all your emails in the coming weeks. I promise 
> 
> So, let's get down to business. First of all, I just realised that people have been having trouble getting the powder to dissolve into the vehicle (Versapro). This was a possibility and by the sound of things, we may need to add a 'wetting agent' to CB-03-01 (Cortexolone) prior to mixing it with Versapro. Clobetasol which has very similar chemical properties to Cortexolone (CB) is always combined with a wetting agent prior to incorporation into a vehicle. 
> 
> I've ordered a batch of CB-03-01 from Kane and as soon as I receive it, I'll run some experiments to see what would be the most ideal wetting agent. This is a minor issue and we should be able to find a workable solution around it. 
> 
> For now, if you already have your Versapro and CB don't waste it. Hang on to them and store them in a cool dry place (fridge preferably) until we figure things out. Luckily, I never got around to sending out any Versapro. 
> ...


 
I'm sorry for your loss Desmond. Thank you for still keeping us updated in times like these, you contribute a lot to the community!

----------


## FearTheLoss

> Yes brother it's in the trials , results conclude in the summer , it will be availble to asian market first , then europe, finally usa ! The fda requires it to go through 3 phases . Fda are tough


 I'm pretty sure this is just the POC phase 2 correct? So they would need to do dose ranging studies still which is a much longer trial, and then phase III finally. 

It seems we have a long time before we could see CB to the market for AA. However, we could use it off label once the prices go down when the acne version comes out...as long as we get the right vehicle.

----------


## It's2014ComeOnAlready

> I'm pretty sure this is just the POC phase 2 correct? So they would need to do dose ranging studies still which is a much longer trial, and then phase III finally. 
> 
> It seems we have a long time before we could see CB to the market for AA. However, we could use it off label once the prices go down when the acne version comes out...as long as we get the right vehicle.


 The optimal dose has already been decided in the preclinical work, so it may not be necessary.

----------


## DepressedByHairLoss

> Also guys, some great news regarding future of CB-03-01.
> 
> As you may remember, the prescription medicines 'Yasmin' & 'Yaz' were taken off the market in Europe, and Bayer is facing several lawsuits across the world after it was found that this Anti-androgenic contraceptive pill used by many young women was the culprit for clotting in the periphery which had the potential to be dislodged and move along the artery and cause Heart attacks and strokes which took the lives of several young women. 
> 
> This led to a push to stop prescribing such pills to prevent acne and instead to use topical agents instead. Currently the most effective topicals for acne are antibiotic-based for the exception of one known as Epiduo which is made up of Adaptalene & Benzyl peroxide. 
> 
> Recently however, a major study found that this change in prescribing behaviour had led to serious bacterial resistance to all the antibiotics used topically which can have very serious consequences as we are rapidly running out of antibiotics to fight serious infections and there are hardly any new antibiotics entering the market. This has made the medical community extremely worried, which led to the letter we received from Galderma pharmaceuticals who are the largest manufacturers of acne products around the world. Here's the letter we received:
> 
> 
> ...


 Desmond, great to hear from you again!  I missed you, man.  And sorry to hear about your dear friend, my heart and my condolenses go out to you.  Keep in the regular loop on here though, I for one trust your thoughts and opinions more than anyone in the hair restoration field.

----------


## Desmond84

Thanks brother.. Will do. Trying to catch up on everything I missed.. There's a lot of new threads lol

----------


## noisette

Héhéhé... yes bro ! welcome back Desmond, you missed us

----------


## HairBeWithYou

Any update in regards to a possible "wetting agent" ?

----------


## lifelonglearning

Is vehicle really the issue?



Is there anyone currently using CB?

----------


## lifelonglearning

Why hasn't anyone tried this cream vehicle

"Quite often, a wetting or levigating agent is needed when incorporating a solid substance into a cream or ointment. Commonly used agents include alcohol for wetting and mineral oil or glycerin for levigating"

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## FearTheLoss

> Is vehicle really the issue?
> 
> Attachment 37208
> 
> Is there anyone currently using CB?


 
Interesting, it seems we must need a higher dosage, rather than something that can penetrate the skin better. This is good/bad news. Good because we will know the concentration they are using in trials by the end of this year, but bad news because it might be too expensive to use.

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## Gossip

Hi desmond, i just wondered if you could ship a versapro cream 500 gr to Europe. I am a new member so i can't send you private message, so please let me know if you seen the post. thank you

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## burtandernie

Whatever happened with ascj 9? It was a pretty promising topical much like CB that of course would probably have been out by now had it been finished. Toss it into the pile with RU and countless other things that were never finished.

http://www.androscience.com/artman/p...al_Study.shtml

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## burtandernie

Whatever happened with ascj 9? It was a pretty promising topical much like CB that of course would probably have been out by now had it been finished. Toss it into the pile with RU and countless other things that were never finished.
Kind of a shame I wonder if it was stronger or cheaper than CB would have been?

http://www.androscience.com/artman/p...al_Study.shtml

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## burtandernie

Sorry on the double post I was getting lag yesterday and I guess posted it twice. Wont let me delete them

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## Desmond84

> Hi desmond, i just wondered if you could ship a versapro cream 500 gr to Europe. I am a new member so i can't send you private message, so please let me know if you seen the post. thank you


 Hi my man, yeah I could do that if you like  :Smile:  Have you seen my post about the new vehicle we came up with? 

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...ng-Cream-100mL

I found that Versapro cream is a bit too thick to apply to the scalp especially if you have long hair. That's why we tried Medisca HRT cream instead which is highly absorbent, much more runny and vanishes quite quickly leaving minimal residue. 

Anyways, you can email me directly if you like and we can have a chat  :Wink: 

My email is: kavsar84@gmail.com

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## Gossip

thank you desmond, i will send you email  :Smile:

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## zephyrprime

> Thats what topical fin is for... or better yet, break a DUT liquid capsule open and rub on scalp. DUT is 100x more potent than fin in some areas of science...


 DUT does not penetrate the scalp.  I've tried it before.  I've also tried topical fin and it does penetrate the scalp (as evidenced by my side effects).

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## potato1987

> Hi my man, yeah I could do that if you like  Have you seen my post about the new vehicle we came up with? 
> 
> https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/thread...ng-Cream-100mL
> 
> I found that Versapro cream is a bit too thick to apply to the scalp especially if you have long hair. That's why we tried Medisca HRT cream instead which is highly absorbent, much more runny and vanishes quite quickly leaving minimal residue. 
> 
> Anyways, you can email me directly if you like and we can have a chat 
> 
> My email is: kavsar84@gmail.com


 Desmond is there any chance you can shed some light on the quantities to mix and how to obtain medisca HRT? I would like to start CB but really don't want to waste it.

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## Patrickfegan

Hi Desmond 

I live in UK. I seen that you give your email address out to be contacted, would it be okay if I did the same?  I am in the same predicament, I would like to try Cb but cannot attain the cream.  I would buy enough so I wouldn't be hassling you again ... for a good while.  

Thanks

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